Muller ToddTODD MULLER (National—Bay of Plenty): Thank you Madam Chair. I'd like to take a call to speak directly to the comments that the Minister in the chair Megan Woods made when she last spoke. It was in the context of a question around a just transition and she said that the whole purpose of a just transition and indeed the policy intent that sits at the core of this legislation is for the Government to look ahead and see where the changes the big geopolitical and environmental and economic changes are going to occur and get in front of that and to assist the economy to move at the pace necessary to do that in an appropriate way. She said—and I quote—The era of fossil fuels is coming to an end." That I think is the most explicit statement today around the Minister's and this Government's view around the place of oil and gas not only in the New Zealand economy but in the global economy despite the fact that the data is so clear that the demand for oil and gas in particular is going to be significant over the next 20 30 40 years.So what this actually is is not a conversation around climate change or managing emissions; it is "We are opposed to the extractive industries and in particular we are opposed to the future of hydrocarbon." There is no reference in this bill to the opportunity for innovation to be applied to the sector to enable cheap energy to still be a part of the mix globally but to have a reduced emissions profile. We get touted hydrogen as the solution. It may well be part of the mix; I expect it will be. But to assume as she has said here this afternoon that oil and gas have no future—and that is the intellectual rigour that is underpinning this bill and her comments—quite frankly is a disgrace. Show me data Minister which says oil and gas will not be a part of the global economy in 2050. Show me it. Table it. Say "Look New Zealand. This is the future we're prepared to anchor your lives and economic opportunity to." The data doesn't exist.She will show you a build in renewable energy—that's fine from a very low base—but that same data will say that gas is a critical part of the global energies mix in 2050. Why? Because all those developing countries will be moving from coal to gas a huge commercial opportunity for most gas producers in the world now except New Zealand—now except New Zealand. The Government's view of just transition is some two or three bureaucrats in Wellington coming up with $50000 grants that Shane Jones can wave around. With respect that is hopeless. We are not talking here about some sort of theoretical exercise; these are people. This is an economy OK? This is an economy that will continue to be requiring hydrocarbons. There is no impact on demand; in fact when petrol prices rise to $2.50 the Prime Minister says "This is appalling. We need to look at the margins because everyone's hurting." Goodness me. There is no intellectual coherence at all in this debate from the Government side. "We're anti oil and gas. We see no future for hydrocarbons despite the fact actually that global demand is clear."A just transition? A just transition—having a couple of public meetings eventually in Taranaki saying "Oh look we'll try and find a cycleway $50000"—Lawrence Yule: A church.TODD MULLER: A church. I mean with respect how on earth can you frame up a policy response to one of the more critical issues of our time—climate change—and frame it like that when the impact on this country's emissions will go the wrong way? Our ability to contribute to the developing countries' world emissions profile and improve theirs—we don't participate in that because we've ceded that opportunity to all the other gas explorers of the world. As they say there is no rigour in this at all. There wasn't when the decision was made. There's no supporting analysis from officials that says that we should be doing this. This is just sloganeering and when actually put under the test the Minister stands up and says "Actually from our perspective there is no future in fossil fuels." Well tell that to the other 190 countries out in the world."