Flavell Te Ururoa: Courts (Remote Participation) Bill — Third Reading 
Flavell Te Ururoa: Courts (Remote Participation) Bill — Third Reading 
[Volume:664;Page:12423] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 Tena koe tena tatau katoa e te Whare. Ko taku i te tuatahi ko te whaiwhai haere i te korero o enei na me mihi ki te Minita ka tika. Katahi ano au ka kite i tera momo ahuatanga. Te taenga mai o te tangata ki roto i te Whare Paremata mena ka whakarongo ia ki nga korero te nuinga o te wa ka patai te patai he aha te tika o enei mahi i roto i te Whare Paremata. I te roanga o te wa kua noho au ki roto i te Whare Paremata kua kore au e kite i tera ahuatanga ara ko te aro mai o te Minita ki te ia o te korero ka korerohia i roto i te Whare Paremata. No reira ki te Minita ka nui te mihi ki a ia otira ki te pai o nga korero i puta i te Whare huri rauna huri noa i te Whare nga kokonga me nga taha katoa. A kati he rawe ki te whakarongo ki nga korero. No reira tera korero tera. Ka waiho ki reira me taku mihi ano ra ki te Minita. 
Katahi ano au ka rongo i te ahuatanga o te kupu e ki ana ko te “oxymoron”. Kua korerohia tera kupu ki roto i te Whare Paremata nei ko te “oxymoron”. Kaore au i te tino marama ki te tikanga o tera kupu te oxymoron engari ki taku mohio i roto i te Ao Maori a ko nga kupu e noho taupatupatu nei. Ne? Ko nga kupu ko te wairua o te korero e noho tukituki nei taupatupatu nei. A penei i roto i te reo Pakeha “a wise fool” tera momo korero. Ara ko te “legal murder” tera momo korero. Ara ko te korero oxymoron tera. Ki taku mohio a e ahua pera ano hoki tenei pire. Ko te oxymoron 
e korerohia ake nei ko te “remote” 
me te “participation” kei te ahua tukituki ena kupu ne? No reira kua marama au ki te tikanga o tenei kupu o te oxymoron. Tera korero tera. 
Mo tenei pire tino rata au ki te ahuatanga o nga korero katoa engari hei whaiwhai haere i te korero a taku hoa a Hone Harawira inapo nei me taku ki atu tera korero i kitea te taumatatanga o tenei mea o te korero o te whaikorero. No reira ka mihi ki a ia. A ko tana korero ki te Whare e penei ana. E taea ana e tatau te kite i te tukinotanga ka taea e wai ranei i roto i nga spacies parlours. Ka kitea mai ai nga tamariki ka pehia te patene kua mate te tangata. Na te pehi i te patene ko tana korero ngawari noa iho ki nga tamariki ki te haere ki era momo whare ki te kainga ranei noho ki mua i te aroaro o te pouaka whakaata ma te PlayStation era momo mea a ka mahi tenei mea ko te mahi whakatumatuma. No reira kua kite tatau i te whanui i te wharoa o te ahuatanga o te ao technology nei. Ka taea ma te pehi o te patene te whakatuwhera i te kuaha o te kareti ka taea te kati i nga arai ka taea te whakatika te whakaka i to pouaka whakaata enei ahuatanga katoa. No natatanei kua puta te joystick kei te mohio etahi ki te ahuatanga o te joystick. Engari anei au e noho nei me te rangirua he aha te tikanga o te joystick 
mena ko tona mutunga mai he patu i te tangata. Kei te ahua oxymoron tonu tera momo korero. Ka joystick mai engari ko tona mutunga mai he patu i te tangata. Katahi te mahi rorirori ko tera. No reira tera korero tera. 
Kei te mohio pea etahi o tatau ko te ahuatanga o tenei mea o te  
Grand Theft Auto 
. E ai ki nga korero whitu tekau miriona nga kape me ki kei a tatau kei te ao. Ko tana mahi me ki ko nga momo tangata kino nei ko nga hara nei a ko ta ratau mahi haere i te ao. Ma te patu i te tangata kua piki haere nga taumata o tenei mea o te kino. No reira koinei te ahuatanga o tenei mea o te  
Grand Theft Auto 
. I etahi wa ko te mahi o tera kemu ka kite atu i te pa kuha a te tane me te wahine ano nei kei te mahi i tera mahi. No reira koinei te ahuatanga o tenei mea o te technology. Heoi ano koinei te ahuatanga o tenei ao. 
A ka pehi te patene me ki penei i ta Hone e korero nei mama noa iho te noho ki reira i te mea ehara i te mea kei roto i tena ao. Ko ta Hone inapo penei i tana haerenga i te motu kaore tetahi i paku whakahe i mua i tana kanohi i he to korero Hone Harawira kao engari i te pouaka whakaata ka karawhiuwhiuhia nga korero katoa whakahe nei i a Hone engari ki mua i te aroaro o te kanohi kao. Kaore tetahi i paku korero. No reira koinei te ahuatanga me ki kei roto i tenei whiriwhiringa o tatau. No reira kati waiho tera ki reira. 
Ko te tikanga o taku korero e ki ana e mea ana penei i ta tenei na ko te kanohi ki te kanohi he mea nui tera i roto i te Ao Maori. Engari ko te mate ke o te kanohi ki te pouaka whakaata he kore wairua he noho wehe tera momo ahuatanga. No reira ki taku mohio he oxymoron te putake o tenei momo pire. A kati waiho tera ki reira i te mea ara ano etahi awangawanga o te Pati Maori mo tenei pire. Ka ki atu matau e me kaua tatau e whai i tera ahuatanga. Ko ta matau ko te ki atu kanohi ki te kanohi me whai i tera ahuatanga. No reira koia te mea i te putake o tenei take ki a matau. Mo te Pati Maori ko tenei mea te ture he mea nui tera ki a matau. Me whai te ture ki tona mutunga ki tona tika ki tona teiteitanga. 
Kua roa matau e korero ana mo te tika o te whakahaere o te ture mo te whakatinanatanga ano hoki o te ture i roto i nga koti. Koinei ta te Pati Maori mo tenei pire. Ko tenei mea o te ture i kitea mai ai i roto i te ahuatanga o tenei mea e ki ana ko nga tikanga a-tangata ara i te reo Pakeha human rights. Ko ta matau ko te ki atu he pai tonu kia whai te human rights i roto i te pire me ki o Aotearoa New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990. Ka tae ki te mutunga a kaore matau i te tino kite i te ahuatanga o te whakatinanatanga o tera mea i roto i te pire i mua o te wa i hoki mai a i te wa i korerohia i te wahanga komiti nei. I ata titiro matau ki te ahuatanga o tenei pire a ko nga tikanga whakahaere o nga whakaaturanga a-pikitia. I ata titiro matau ki nga tikanga a-pira. Ko te tino putake o te raruraru ko tera e pa ana ki te kupu whakamutunga ki te whakaaetanga ranei o te kooti o te tiati ranei. I reira te raruraru. Penei i ta Kennedy Graham mena ka riro ma te tangata kotahi e ki atu ae kao. Koina te putake o te raruraru. No reira koira te putake o ta matau raru. A ko te mate ke ko te paoho o nga— 
[ 
Greetings to you and to us all the House. First I want to follow up on the sentiments expressed by those before me. The Minister must be acknowledged. It is the first time I have seen that sort of thing. When a member comes into the House and if he listens to the contributions most times questions raised are about how such actions affect order in the Chamber. In the time that I have been in the House I have never seen a situation where a Minister took the nub of a contribution in the Chamber into account. So I commend the Minister highly. I commend the quality of the contributions throughout the Chamber on all sides as well. It was wonderful to listen to the speeches. I leave that statement there with my acknowledgments to the Minister once again.  
I have just heard the word “oxymoron” used in this Chamber. I really do not know what that word means but my understanding from a Maori perspective is that it is about words that clash with each other is it not? It is words in which the concepts contradict each other like the English words “wise fool” or “legal murder”. That is what an oxymoron is. To me this bill is a bit like that. “Remote” and “participation” are the oxymoron here. Those words somewhat contradict each other do they not? I am clear about this word “oxymoron” now. That is that statement.  
As for this bill I am quite satisfied with everything in it and the way it is worded but to follow up on my colleague Hone Harawira’s address last night it was from the top drawer and I commend him for it. The essence of what he said to the House was about the damage that anyone can do in spacies parlours. Children can be seen annihilating people by pressing a button. He said that we have made it easier for kids to go to those kinds of amenities or to stay at home in front of a television with a PlayStation or gaming consoles and be an armchair terrorist. So we can see that technology has extended beyond the boundaries of human imagination. We can open the garage door shut electric blinds and turn on the TV all by remote control. And now we have the joystick and some of us are aware of what it can do. But here I am in a state of confusion as to the meaning of joystick which ultimately is about killing people. That sort of talk is somewhat of an oxymoron to me. What a crazy game that is!  
Some of us know about the  
Grand Theft Auto 
 game of which it is alleged that there are 70 million copies available worldwide. It is an action game where one becomes a big-time criminal carrying out all sorts of organised crime throughout the world by killing people. That is the nature of this thing called  
Grand Theft Auto 
. Sometimes there is even the opportunity for simulated sex. So this is the nature of technology and the reality of this world we live in where by the mere press of a button or through remote control as Hone Harawira alluded to it is very easy to become disconnected from the world and reality and become desensitised to the reality of terror as well.  
In Hone’s speech last night he referred to his travels around the country when no one confronted him personally to reject his assertions—not at all. On television everything he said was criticised and rejected—but face to face not at all. No one said a thing. This then is the nature of this negotiation process of ours. So enough leave that there. 
What I am really trying to say I guess is that working on a face-to-face basis is important in Maoridom. The problem with a face-to - television screen approach is that it lacks the personal and emotional touch. It is devoid of any feeling. To my understanding oxymoron is at the root of this kind of bill.  
Enough leave that there because the Maori Party has other concerns about this bill. We advise against pursuing the remote control aspect in criminal matters. The face-to-face approach is what we favour. That is the crux of this matter for us. Justice is an important thing for the Maori Party. It must follow due process it must be just and it must be pursued at its highest level.  
We have talked at length about how justice must be administered correctly and that the implementation of the law in courts must be just. This is what the Maori Party seeks in this bill. The justice issues that arise in this bill are purely and simply about human rights. We say that human rights for New Zealand through the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 is fine but in the end we did not find any reference to that in the bill before it came back or when it was debated at the Committee stage. We studied the criteria that would influence the way in which audiovisual links are to be used. We looked at the right to appeal. The real problem for us was the question around judicial discretion where the judge must take into account whether the parties including the defendant consent to the use of audiovisual links. It was as Kennedy Graham said whether it would be for one person to say yes or no. That was the crux of the problem and where we came unstuck. The problem with evidence being beamed from 
—] 
David Garrett 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am very reluctant to interrupt my colleague but the interpretation appears to have— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Eric Roy) 
: I am aware of that; there is not a lot that I can do about that. I think it is back on. I think there was a bit of a delay while the interpreter was finding the words. I think that is right. We are working through it. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL 
: Kei te pai. No reira i hea au? Tera pea i rongo koe i tera? 
Ko tetahi korero i korerohia inapo nei me ki ko te ahei o te hunga hara ki te korero ki tana roia tera momo take i korerohia inapo nei. I tino whakaae atu matau ki tera momo ahuatanga. Ka mutu me hoki ra ano ki te putake me te mohio ano hoki ka katia te wa korero ki a au. I te putake o te nawe o te Pati Maori ko tera e pa ana ki te ahuatanga o tenei mea o te whakaaetanga. Te whakaaetanga o te hunga hara ki te tu ki mua i te aroaro o te kooti. I mua o te taenga mai o te Minita i katia tera ahuatanga i tona mutunga mai ka riro ma te koti tera e whakatau. No reira i harikoa tino harikoa. I mutu pai i tau pai te katoa o te korero i roto i te Whare Paremata. E tino harikoa ana matau i te ahuatanga a te mahitahi o te Ropu Reipa te Ropu Kakariki tae ra ano ki a Nahinara me te Pati Maori ki nga tangata nei hoki. No reira katahi te rangi pai inanahi he ra pai ano hoki tenei i te mea kua tutuki kua eke tenei pire ki tona taumata. E te Whare tena koutou kia ora tatau katoa. 
[ 
That is fine. So where was I? There perhaps; did the member hear that? 
Another thing that was discussed last night was the ability of a defendant to consult with counsel during proceedings. We agree completely. So finally I must go back to the crux knowing full well that my time to talk is about to expire. For us it all revolved around the concept of consent—allowing the defendants to stand before the court. Before the timely intervention of the Minister that approach had been closed off and now it has been left for the court to resolve. So we are very happy indeed—really pleased. All of the contributions in the House were well received. We were elated at how the Labour Party Green Party National Party and the Maori Party including these members here worked well together. So yesterday was a wonderful day and so is today because this bill has reached its conclusion. Greetings to you the House and to us all 
.]