Hodgson Pete: Financial Review Debate — In Committee 
Hodgson Pete: Financial Review Debate — In Committee 
[Volume:653;Page:2471] 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 When the Minister of Internal Affairs went to India in February of this year returning I think on 2 March of this year he did a range of things that by the kindest analysis could be described as unusual. First of all— 
Nathan Guy 
: Point of order— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I know what the point of order is. Before we commenced this debate I read an instruction to the Committee and let me just remind the member that this debate on the Government’s financial position may be a wide-ranging one but debates on the individual financial reviews of departments and Offices of Parliament and non-departmental appropriation should be relevant to their performance in the 2007-08 financial year and their current operations. So the member must confine himself to the departmental report on that period. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: In respect of the current operations of the Department of Internal Affairs the Minister was in charge for example of the New Zealand Fire Service as part of his duties. It was when he was in India that Australia was alight with fires and indeed a bunch of firefighters had gone to Australia in that time. Then on his return the Minister who is shouting uncontrollably from the chair released a press statement to say that the second batch of firefighters was to go to Australia. This proves my point that the Minister of Internal Affairs has something to do with firefighting in Australia—except he was in India at the time. 
The first unusual thing was that the Minister went to India during the Government’s 100 days of action— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: This debate is not about the Minister’s conduct; it is about the department. The member will contain himself to those issues. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: On the Minister’s departure date to India—on 24 February—his department opened a website about births deaths and marriages. The Minister put out a press statement about the births deaths and marriages website on 24 February or thereabouts; and on the day of his return the Minister put out another statement about further activity within the Department of Internal Affairs which was about the second tranche of New Zealand firefighters going to Australia to help put out the fires. In the meantime the Minister put out no press statements about the ongoing activities of the Department of Internal Affairs because he was not around. What is more he never put out a press statement to say he was not around. So no doubt most people thought that the Minister of Internal Affairs was still in New Zealand running the Department of Internal Affairs when he was not. He bookended his trip with a press statement about a website on births deaths and marriages on his departure and another press statement about the— 
Nathan Guy 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This financial review is about the department’s performance in the previous 12 months. This member is straying well outside the mark. I suggest to you Mr Chair that you rein in the speaker and remind him about this debate. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I am very surprised Mr Chairperson that a good 3½ hours into the debate there is now quite active refereeing of what should be in and what should be out with regard to what members are saying. I point out that the Department of Internal Affairs is responsible for Ministerial Services for Ministers’ staffing and for the facilitation of Ministers through customs at airports. That is the point my colleague was trying to get to but he has been stopped a couple of times by you Mr Chairperson and then by interference from the Government. This is the first time in the debate that a Minister has been protected in this way. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The member will please sit. It is not the first time in the debate. I have already ruled that one member was getting outside the realm of the debate. The reason there has not been any other such ruling is that members have stayed inside— 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: No they haven’t. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Well they have while I have been in the Chair. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: It’s not been right while you haven’t been here. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Well irrespective members know that if there is an issue it should be raised at the time. The issue is clear here. The Minister’s conduct or perceptions thereof is not at issue. It is about the department’s performance. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Speaking to the point of order— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: No I have ruled on the point of order. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is a new point of order. In the light of your comments you may wish to reflect on the part of the financial review in respect of the Department of Corrections. Without rehearsing that in that debate for instance reference was repeatedly made by a number of speakers to the Minister’s relationship with the chief executive which forms part of Standing Order 334(1) which includes current operations. I am not sure who was in the Chair at the time but that was ruled as being completely correct. It was a contemporary issue it was current operations and it was direct ministerial conduct in respect of the chief executive. With respect I fail to see how you can rule out my colleague because exactly the same points are being made about the current operations. My colleague Mr Hughes has talked about Ministerial Services for which the Minister is responsible. I ask you Mr Chairperson for some consistency. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I will reflect on the point that the member makes and if I deem that any member is outside the range of what must be debated then I will rule it out of order. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The trip to which I am no longer allowed to refer was unusual in this respect: the Ministerial Services facilitation of Dr Worth at least on his arrival back through Auckland was in conflict one could argue with the fact that he was travelling as a private individual and not as a Minister. However— 
Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The member continues to trifle with the Chair. You have ruled on the matter; he continues to ignore your ruling. I think you have to take action because frankly he is determined to ignore you completely. You have to assert your authority otherwise it looks like the Chair— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: It is out of order to tell the Chair to assert his or her authority. That is out of order. I am listening very carefully to what the member says. I think we have made that point. I will now monitor it as I do with every other speaker. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Let us take a look at the facilitation services that are provided by Ministerial Services which is part of the Department of Internal Affairs and let us ask ourselves—[ 
Interruption 
] Those members cannot shut me down with points of order any more so they are going to try pure volume and the problem is I have the microphone. The fact of the matter is that it is unusual for a private individual to be facilitated and to have the car draw up at the airport. That is an unusual thing for Ministerial Services to do but on the occasion of the Minister of Internal Affairs returning to New Zealand that is exactly what happened. Private individuals were facilitated across the tarmac by Ministerial Services. Whether this happened at all during the year under review I am not sure but I do know that it is a current operation because it was done for the Minister of Internal Affairs and for a couple of his rough mates who went on the trip with him. 
Hon Dr Richard Worth 
: Wrong wrong! 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: What is more the Minister is now losing his cool. He is yelling into the microphone. You will have to bring him under control Mr Chairman. Oh he has got him under control; that is great. Let us look then at whether that action of Ministerial Services is a normal activity or whether that is an unusual activity for the Department of Internal Affairs. I would assert that it is unusual. I am sure it has happened before but probably with a trade mission led by a trade Minister not with a trade mission led by the Minister of Internal Affairs travelling privately and forgetting to tell his boss that he had a conflict of interest about which I may not talk. 
There is another matter that arises in respect of Ministerial Services and that is I cannot find any record of who was the Minister of Internal Affairs in New Zealand when the Minister of Internal Affairs was not in New Zealand because as soon as he goes through the 12-mile limit there is supposed to be some other Minister and Ministerial Services did not put out a press statement about that.