Norman Russel: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeNorman Russel: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 30 July 2015. Volume:707;Page:5513. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]6.Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Green) to the Minister of Trade: Has the New Zealand Government provided to other governments involved in the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations any documents regarding New Zealand’s position on specific issues in the negotiations; if so have those documents been made publicly available to New Zealanders?Hon TODD McCLAY (Acting Minister of Trade): Kia ora Mr Speaker. As part of the negotiation process negotiators necessarily provide documents to other participants in a negotiation in order to assist the negotiating strategies to obtain the best outcomes for New Zealand. All Trans-Pacific Partnership members have agreed to keep negotiating texts confidential. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has been open about the issues under negotiation and has actively engaged stakeholders. Hundreds of groups and individuals have been involved in consultation.Dr Russel Norman: So is the Minister saying that the New Zealand Government has provided position papers to the other Governments involved in the negotiations on New Zealand’s negotiating position in the Trans-Pacific Partnership?Hon TODD McCLAY: The New Zealand Government has been negotiating with 11 other countries. We do so so that we can deliver the best outcome of this negotiation for New Zealand.Dr Russel Norman: Why is it that the Government will reveal its negotiating position to the other parties in the negotiation through these documents but it will not make those negotiating documents available to the people of New Zealand?Hon TODD McCLAY: In our desire to deliver the very best agreement possible for New Zealanders it is necessary for us to negotiate with our partners.Dr Russel Norman: How could it undermine the negotiating position of the New Zealand Government to tell the people of New Zealand what is in these documents that has already been shared with the other negotiating partners?Hon TODD McCLAY: Disclosure to other countries of all of our negotiating positions and including New Zealand’s bottom lines which is the information the member is asking us to deliver and the sensitive and likely negotiating positions and strategies New Zealand is applying is likely to undermine our negotiating position. Part of the reason our negotiators are in Hawaii at the moment and we do not have an agreement is that actually there are issues that remain outstanding to be negotiated in New Zealand’s interest.Dr Russel Norman: Putting aside the issue of New Zealand’s bottom lines how can it undermine the New Zealand Government position in the negotiations to release to the New Zealand public the papers that the New Zealand Government has already given to the other Governments that are party to the negotiations—the other Governments already know what is in these papers?Mr SPEAKER: Order! The question has been asked.Hon TODD McCLAY: What is becoming more apparent is that member’s desire to undermine New Zealand’s—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Simply answer the question.Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I take offence at that comment. I ask him to withdraw and apologise.Mr SPEAKER: No I am not going to ask the member to withdraw. I have stopped him from answering that. He is not to continue in that vein. I do not think it was something that was necessary. It was creating disorder. It was hardly an offensive remark but I ask now the Minister to complete an answer to the question.Tracey Martin: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: I hope we are not getting to the position of relitigating decisions.Tracey Martin: I am going to ask you please whether you can clarify. My understanding was that under the Standing Orders it was if a member—a member—took offence. Have we now changed so that you decide—Mr SPEAKER: Order! No nothing has changed but I am happy to bring the member up to date. It is a matter of whether it is an offence to the House not whether it is an offence to an individual member. On occasions there are times when members have said they were offended; in fact I think there was a case yesterday when I did consider whether as in this case the member should have taken offence. It is a matter of offence to the House not to an individual member. Would the Hon Todd McClay—Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Order! No—would the member resume his seat. We have spent enough time on this. If the member raises a fresh point of order I am happy to hear it—Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I just want to be fair to the member. He will resume his seat. But if in any way we are continuing to relitigate a point that I have made it will require me to be even-handed as I was in the action I took on Tuesday.Dr Russel Norman: The question is in determining offence to the House basically what the Minister is saying is that anyone who disagrees with the Government’s position is undermining the New Zealand Government’s position. Most of us on this side of the House—Mr SPEAKER: The member now is in very grave danger of not being here to hear the answer. I have explained that I am not interested in relitigating the point. I have explained to Tracey Martin that I need to decide whether the words stated were offensive enough that they could lead to offence. On occasions I do; on this occasion I did not. Would the Hon Todd McClay complete his answer.Hon TODD McCLAY: No the Government values the views of New Zealanders which is why there have been two full consultations under the Trans-Pacific Partnership during the negotiation. What I would say to that member is that people who want us to make public these documents actually do not want to see the text; they just want to derail the agreement. The agreement if concluded will deliver benefit to the New Zealand economy.Dr Russel Norman: Is the actual reason the Government will not release the documents that it has already shown to all the other Governments involved in the negotiation—the actual reason they will not release them to the public of New Zealand—because the people of New Zealand will not agree with the negotiating position that this Government has taken? That is why they are kept secret.Hon TODD McCLAY: The answer to that question is no. The other answer is nobody has taken that member’s flag.