Collins JudithHon JUDITH COLLINS (National—Papakura): I've been really proud of Parliament and the way in which we have dealt with this very difficult issue. I think it's important for us to remember that most people in New Zealand do not own firearms but many who do own firearms need to own firearms either for farming purposes or for their hunting or even for sporting activities.We have a very low homicide rate in New Zealand. We have 0.9 homicides per 100000 people. If you put that against Australia they're one per 100000 people—very close to that. The United States is at 4.7. So we are essentially four times less likely to be killed in New Zealand when it comes to homicide rates than in the United States. I looked at some figures produced by New Zealand Police: 15 people committed murder with a firearm in the 10 years before the Christchurch massacre and those people had firearms licences. Many other murders were committed by people without firearms licences but who did have firearms. In 2016 when I was Minister of Police we asked the Law and Order Committee here in Parliament to look at how gang members and other criminals were accessing firearms. One of the ways that came out is that they were stolen. Because there's no firearms register in New Zealand there's no obligation on anyone to advise the police of a stolen firearm and there's no obligation to keep serial numbers—unless it's a category E type firearm. The other way that they were getting firearms is that they were buying them or someone else was buying them for them and passing them on because again there is no obligation to pass on that information. That select committee came back with 20 recommendations. Some were accepted by the Government but then there was a change of Government. One of the things I thought was most important was the issue around firearm prohibition orders to enable police to go into gang houses and seize firearms whether they know for certain they're there or not. Now one of the opportunities for this new legislation is to think about in the second tranche bringing in that firearm prohibition order. My colleague Chris Bishop who's spoken today had a member's bill last year around this and it was defeated in Parliament. I would hope that given another chance it would be successful. I say this because we have all seen the way in which New Zealand has come together around this terrible massacre in Christchurch but we also saw people like gang members—patched gang members—coming out and saying they were here with the people of Christchurch they were with the Muslim New Zealanders and they were going to help protect them. Then someone asked them the question: And what about giving up your illegal firearms?" Oh no they didn't want to do that. Well I'll tell you what: the best way forward is to give the police the powers give them the firepower to do it and get on and take them. I'm sick and tired of listening to people emoting about how they're feeling sorry but they're not going to give up their firearms.Do you know our lowest rate for homicides in New Zealand that I can find was in 2017 when we had 48 people murdered. In 2016 it was 58. We'd had a steady drop over the years and we also have now got 50 people murdered in one day. So that should give us all some perspective—a little country with a population smaller than Melbourne Australia with 50 people dead in one day. The buy-back for the legally held firearms is absolutely crucial. It's also important for people to hand in their firearms which they hold illegally and they can hand those in to dealers or to the police. That buy-back has been estimated to cost from the Minister of Police $100 million. The Deputy Prime Minister said this morning it could be $300 million. I think it could be anything—it could be $500 million. The fact is it will cost what it costs. The point is it has to be successful and I think that is really important. One of the things I think that we need to think about here is the education of people who are otherwise law abiding New Zealanders who own firearms legally. A lot of those people are telling us that they are frightened they are worried they are upset they are concerned and they feel that they have been demonised by this mass killer who came to our shores and did what he did. Of course it's not right for us to demonise people who have legally bought firearms and use them legally but it is important that everyone understands that everything has changed now in New Zealand. The Thorp report was a good place to start—that was 1997 from memory. That ended up going nowhere. All sorts of other inquiries and reports—we've never really had an urgency ever since Aramoana to actually deal with this situation. I think that the general population that owns firearms acts extremely responsibly and by the way will not even be affected by this legislation. There is however—in my experience as a former Minister of Police—a small group particularly around some dealers who will in fact rark-up people and get them to think that they are going to be demonised. I heard this morning on Morning Report on Radio New Zealand one of those people referring to this legislation as criminalising the 240000 New Zealanders who own firearms. That is totally wrong totally unfair and absolutely about rarking-up and no doubt getting themselves membership. That's what I consider totally irresponsible and it will set people thinking that they are going to be picked on or somehow have their rights taken away from them.There needs to be a register and this bill does not deal with that register but there needs to be a firearms register. I'm not naive enough—as some will be—to think that if there's a register that will show every firearm that there is. No but what it will do is that when a firearm is sold or a firearm is lost or a firearm is stolen there will be an obligation to advise the police and for that to be noted. I have to register my car. I have to register my little 16-year-old Jack Russell terrier Holly. She is not a dangerous animal. She can however sort out a rat still—but she takes about 10 days to get over it. But having said that if I have to register my dog why would I not have to register a gun? Even my little Jack Russell terrier—if I had a little bichon frise or heaven forbid a Maltese terrier which is like knee high to a grasshopper I'd have to register that—but apparently not a gun. That seems to me totally crazy. We've heard some scaremongering about "In Canada they tried to do this and it took a billion dollars and it was not particularly successful." They're a much bigger country than us. We pretty much either know each other or are probably related to each other somehow and if not now probably in the future. So you know I don't think it's that hard. Also we have entirely different software applications and mobile phones. Police have smartphones. They can take pictures of serial numbers. You can have apps set up. People in software development can do all sorts of things. We could do this as a nation if we wanted to but we need to understand why we should do it which is where the education comes in. My plea to the Government from the time that this legislation is passed to the time when the buy-back finishes and when all this legislation comes into being is to start a very clear education programme so that New Zealanders who do love their guns do have their guns and have always been law abiding understand how it affects them.I've said to some of those New Zealanders who have raised it with me: "I don't get why you need 30 rounds in a magazine. What are you trying to do? Are you a really bad shot?" Then the answer to me from a person quite close to me who told me this was actually—he said "Judith you can get them with 70 rounds." And then I told someone else who was ex-military and he said to me "Now" he said "you can get 140 rounds in a magazine." They're like a round thing like a Gatling gun. That stuff being sold? No Madam Deputy Speaker that's not OK for New Zealand and we will stand against it."