Lole-Taylor Asenati: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — First ReadingText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLole-Taylor Asenati: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — First Reading[Sitting date: 27 August 2013. Volume:693;Page:13129. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Le’aufa’amuliaASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):Tālofa lavamalō lesoifua ma lelagi emamāilau afioga a lefofogafetalai.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson): Talofa lava.Le’aufa’amuliaASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR: Just before I start my speech here today I want to perhaps respond to the comments by the member who has just taken her seat Melissa Lee. The question she asked was why we are still paying benefits and welfare. Why are we still paying welfare? Well the answer is that there are no blimmin jobs. There are quite a number of low wages. We also have broken promises of course poor legislation and an incompetent Government. Is that enough to answer your question Melissa Lee?So let me now come back to the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. The bill is seeking to amend the Social Security Act 1964 to make spouses and partners including beneficiaries accountable for any fraudulent behaviour.Mike Sabin: Is the member’s microphone on? I can’t hear!Le’aufa’amuliaASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR: That is all that member can do—he is chatting away in the corner. He has not got anything better to say. That is all he is good at. At the same time the bill will allow the Ministry of Social Development to recover debts.There is no doubt that welfare fraud is a serious matter. Something definitely needs to be done. Something needs to be done to combat fraudulent behaviour and tighten measures relating to debt recovery. Over $20 million was taken in the past year—in fact to be exact it was $23.4 million—as a direct result of relationship fraud. Over $20 million is a lot of money. That is over $20 million of taxpayers’ hard-earned money. OK it is not as much as the $176 million that was taken by some directors of some finance companies from their stakeholders but $20 million is still a large amount of public money that could have been made available for job creation. Over $20 million would certainly buy a lot of condoms for prostitutes or recreational items like the tampons or sanitary pads that the Minister for Social Development has been trying to defend lately. It would also be fair to say that half—only half—of that $20 million would certainly help those homeowners in Christchurch who have been badly affected by the earthquakes and are being given the run-around by the Government and insurance companies.However New Zealand First is pleased to see that the National Government is perhaps trying to listen to the strong call from ordinary New Zealanders whom it has ignored for the past many years although it seems it is far too slow in addressing the issues amicably. It was Thomas Jefferson I believe who said: “Experience hathshewn that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have in time and by slow operations perverted it into tyranny.” Given recent mishaps and broken promises by the National Government I think we could afford to say to the Hon Chester Borrows that he is heading in the right direction.Our current legislation makes the person receiving assistance liable for prosecution. It ignores his or her partner or spouse which means he or she would be cleared of any wrongdoing despite potentially having knowledge relating to fraudulent behaviour. This bill will ensure that the persons receiving assistance and their partners or spouses are liable. In other words they will all be liable to be prosecuted for intentionallymisleading the Ministry of Social Development—or shall we say the welfare system—in order to benefit from inheriting what they are certainly not entitled to.Given these reasons there are questions that need to be asked. How will the debt be recovered? Are Chester Borrows’ staff now going to force them to hand over funds in order to pay for it and subject their children ortamaiti if any to poverty? How is the Government going to ensure that money being lost through benefit fraud will be returned in a reasonable time frame or a reasonable manner? If this bill is to pass the member in charge needs to be more transparent as to how it will be implemented and what the appropriate steps will be just like the Labour MP Jacinda Ardern was referring to earlier on about different earnings different times part-time work and so on.Just last week a caregiver pleaded guilty to defrauding the benefit system by almost $274000—54-year-old BeverleyMalzard evaded disclosing information relating to her employment and was able to obtain a benefit in the process. Cases like this paint a very bad picture. That picture unfairly reflects on honest Kiwis out there who have genuine reasons for receiving benefits and who have taken reasonable steps towards employment.Benefit fraud is something New Zealand First does not take lightly. Benefit fraud is completely—completely—unacceptable. We want to ensure that the intentions of this bill will be implemented appropriately and with suitable mechanisms in place to ensure that they are carried out properly. This bill aims to make spouses or partners of benefit frauds criminally liable. We accept that that is fair. It will lead to a fine not exceeding $5000 or imprisonment not exceeding 12 months. Ordinary Kiwis out there would like to see the penalties contained in this bill sufficient to deter potential fraudsters from committing benefit fraud.The concerns that we do have over this bill include first of all how it will be rolled out; two whether the proposed measures will be enough to deter fraudulent behaviour; three whether it could potentially conflict with privacy laws; and four whether it could foster a discriminatory environment on certain groups of people. Attempts definitely need to be taken so that public faith can be restored in the welfare system.There is also a need to acknowledge that there are countless reasons behind benefit fraud. We need to ensure that we understand the possible circumstances that people are in when they contemplate fraudulent behaviour. Some of the reasons may include sudden redundancy or the inability to secure employment; changes to family circumstances—for example death or relationship breakdown; unstable relationships; and perhaps huge debts poor financial literacy and lack of experience in management and looking after their budgets. Let us face it: there are a few out there like that and I do wonder whether Winston Churchill should be blamed for saying that perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right than to be responsible and wrong. In some cases serious alcohol and drug abuse—or shall we say addiction—could also be contributing factors while on the other hand there may be mental illnesses to be considered.Mike Sabin: Go on. Get off the fence!Le’aufa’amuliaASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR: I was discussing this bill with some of our community leaders and Mike Sabin will actually learn something if he listens. They believe that it is timely that the law was reviewed to address benefit fraud. It is also fair to say that not everyone who is committing this kind of crime comes from low-income circumstances as well.For these possible scenarios I believe that it is important that the Social Services Committee be given the opportunity to examine the bill carefully. New Zealand First will support this bill going to the select committee so that the public of New Zealand can be given the opportunity to submit on it because they deserve the opportunity to beheard and they deserve to see democracy being given a fair go in this House. Thank you.