Smith Damien; Robertson GrantDAMIEN SMITH (ACT): Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you first of all for recognising ACT's alternative Budget Minister Robertson. I'm happy to have a lamington and a cup of tea with you tomorrow to share how we constructed that with no cut to front-line services at all. So you've added a new portfolio tonight which is Minister of Fiscal Misinformation". I also can show you how to save $38 billion over four years if some cross-party decisions could be made.But now it makes sense to me because the ex - Deputy Prime Minister—and I'll ask this question: is it a $20 billion revenue shortfall or is it $10 billion? Because these appropriations since the Budget have moved and moved and moved and now today it's the first time I've heard you ever saying we have a deteriorating economy. Usually when people come here at question time there's patsy questions saying you know "Tell us what reports into the New Zealand economy you've got." and I think what's happened now in Cabinet unless I'm mistaken is that the Hon Mr Parker came and said "Houston we have a problem and we need more taxes or we're going to have a massive shortfall in revenue." and the Prime Minister's gone "Hey don't worry about it. We'll use debt." So we have to prepare ourselves now either for a debt-driven strategy to get us out of this or a revenue shortfall. So the question is: is that $20 billion figure that you said today not accurate or is it $10 billion? What can we do to help?Secondly with regards to this misconception about ACT cutting services I'd like that stopped please because we just want value for money. We're not promoting austerity we're not promoting anything other than a responsible fiscal attitude. So is that $20 billion figure from the outside world accurate and will it be adding to the debt servicing cost if there is a shortfall in revenue?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Thank you Madam Chair. Because I said I would I want to go back to the member's earlier contribution around the returns from the Super Fund. I was nearly right—it was 9.65 percent so that does compare very well; the average New Zealand Treasury bill return was 3.37. Obviously returns are volatile over a period of time but I do think the Super Fund has performed relatively well.In terms of finance costs if you look across New Zealand's history we've seen finance costs as high as 6.3 percent of GDP in 1990 and a fairly consistent move around the 1-1.5 percent. It did come down under 1 percent in 2021 and 2022 and it's popped back up again and according to the Treasury's estimates out to the end of the forecast period it'll be about 1.8 percent of GDP. So I accept the fact that the raw numbers have increased but I just wanted the member to have those percentages.In terms of what he's saying here I just do want to repeat—and I've already done this for the member Nicola Willis but when the Crown accounts came out in July I made it clear at that time that those numbers were not what had been predicted in the Budget in May. Now the Treasury do their forecasts; they do those independently of the Government. They finalise them somewhat in advance of the Budget but you know not miles in advance of the Budget. By the time we got the Crown accounts for the month ending 31 May in July there had been a deterioration and I said—I said it at that time and I have said it a number of other times—it's the reason why we do need to continue to be careful prudent balanced look for the things that we can do more efficiently and where we can find savings. So that is the situation that we're in.I don't want to prick the member's fantasy bubble that he has in his head about what might or might not have happened at Cabinet with Minister Parker but suffice to say the documentation that's been released would show to the member that what was being considered was a tax switch—nothing to do with just creating extra revenue; it was revenue that was coming in and then going out. So the member is not accurate in that regard.Where we end up will be the subject of the Treasury's forecast at the pre-election fiscal update. Everybody will get to see those everybody will be able to make their own decisions about that and their own judgments about that but it fits within a framework where all political parties will have to say how they're able to pay for what they do. I don't want to get into an elongated debate tonight with the member about the ACT Party's alternative Budget but I think even he would have to concede that some of the things in it would mean that services things the Government currently does wouldn't be done anymore. That's actually kind of part of what the member is proposing. I don't agree with those but as I said the ACT Party's at least had a decent go at working out what cuts they will need to make to fund the things that they believe are important for New Zealanders. We're never going to agree on that but a cup of tea with the member before he leaves this place would be a very pleasant occasion."