5. Question No. 5—FinanceHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 5—Finance5. Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Secretary to the Treasury that with debt servicing costs at historically low levels there is greater headroom for high-quality investments"; if so will the Government increase "high-quality spending to tackle longstanding challenges"?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Yes and we have already increased spending in the areas noted by the said Treasury Secretary in her speech. I've also flagged that these issues will be the focus of increased spending in future Budgets.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Has the Treasury advised him to spend more than what they've already committed to on longstanding challenges like climate change inequality and the housing crisis?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: It possibly won't surprise the member that the answer to that question is no.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Why is he equally balancing keeping a lid on debt with extra spending on addressing climate change and inequality when the Secretary to the Treasury says it is "important not to have an excessive focus on debt levels as an end objective in and of themselves"?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Because it remains an important balance for New Zealand to look at the long-term impacts of all of our policies. That includes the level of debt we have but equally it includes the level of investment that we need to be making in areas like infrastructure or child wellbeing and so on. So making sure we get a balance right about that doesn't contradict the statement of the Treasury Secretary.Hon Julie Anne Genter: When he said "We did not build enough houses in New Zealand over the last 10 to 15 years." does he consider that a narrow focus on debt limits by successive Governments is partly to blame for a lack of public housing supply?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What I meant by that was exactly what I said. I think that it is important that we use the Government's balance sheet to the extent that it is responsible and possible to be able to help us build houses. We have done that including by increasing Kāinga Ora's borrowing limits but also by investing across the board in things such as the Housing Infrastructure Fund.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Does he agree that the Government would be able to pay nurses and teachers more and properly fund early childhood education if there was less of a focus on debt levels as an end objective in and of themselves at this time?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well I guess it's the premise of the question that I've got issue with. Those debt objectives for me as the Minister of Finance are part of the long-term work that we need to do to ensure the wellbeing of New Zealanders. I agree they are not an end in themselves. They are part of what we are trying to do in terms of improving New Zealanders' wellbeing. The speech that the member quoted from in her primary question I think is an important one by the Treasury Secretary. It echoes my comments prior to the Budget that it is important that we have a conversation about debt about appropriate debt levels about what they mean for our investment in long-term goods for New Zealand such as infrastructure and wellbeing. I welcome the conversation about that.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Will his Government amend the Public Finance Act to remove the bias in that legislation towards lowering debt as an end objective in and of itself and against spending on long-term challenges like climate change and housing?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The member well knows that we have a Public Finance Act reform process under way. At the moment that does not include a specific provision as she has just articulated. But the conversation that the Treasury Secretary and myself have both begun is about talking about the place of debt targets and where debt sits in our overall work. What I would make sure that I assure the member though is I continue to believe that it is important for New Zealand to manage carefully its debt levels. We are a small country. We are prone to natural disasters. We often face the severe impacts of other financial shocks and so on. But I do think there is a valid conversation to be had about the place of public debt and how it supports New Zealand's resilience and wellbeing."