Faafoi KrisHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice): I'm happy to take a call in reference to Schedule 6 in clause 3 a schedule which has been much talked about already in the first two-clause debate of this evening. In this contribution I want to begin by acknowledging Auckland and parts of the Waikato who are still finding themselves in alert level 3 and the businesses especially that are finding themselves in difficulty with the inability to access their premises in order to carry out their normal business. Can I acknowledge my own colleagues who have expressed to me the difficulty that their constituent businesses are feeling with the inability to access those properties especially those in Auckland—the likes of Helen White our list MP based in Auckland Central; Carmel Sepuloni in West Auckland. A number of our colleagues have been in touch to ensure that we give support and continued support and more support to those businesses who are finding themselves in a tussle or in a situation with their landlord where they can't get any relief. There has been a lot of talk already tonight about certainty and there is a dearth of certainty for some of those small businesses in Auckland especially those who haven't found their way to come to an arrangement with their landlord. I want to also acknowledge those landlords who have done the right thing by working with their tenants to make sure that they can find some form of rental relief and the conversations that the Government has had would lead me to suggest that that is a large majority of landlords who have done that and I do want to acknowledge them. A lot of them have either foregone rents given rent relief and in some instances have forgiven rent and also given support to the businesses because they see the long-term benefits of keeping those businesses up and running.We are in a situation with the pandemic where we've had a prolonged period of inability to access some of these premises for some of these businesses and as I say a minority of those tenants and their landlords for some reason or another have been unable to come to an arrangement of paying a fair portion of rent. Now we believe in order to give more certainty to those businesses to make sure that they can keep their businesses up and running to make sure that they can ensure that the investment that they have made into their business to make sure that the staff and the suppliers for those businesses can continue to operate—that's something that actually needs to be done. I would hazard a guess that actually members on this side and that side agree that there is a situation for those tenants at the moment. We will disagree about how it's done. The National Party would prefer that the Government pony up 50 percent and I'll come to that at some stage. But I will agree with some of the members that there is a high threshold to what we have done but we believe that the point of justification has arrived for that because if we don't do that for the small number of businesses there is a high certainty that they will fall over that their employees will no longer have jobs. I would've thought that the members on that side of the Chamber would actually be sticking up for small businesses in those situations to make sure that they could have more certainty but they are not—Hon Andrew Little: They're funded by the big corporates that's why.Hon KRIS FAAFOI: —but they are not.So what this piece of legislation does—Chris Bishop: Point of order. The Minister of Health as a very senior member has just made an extremely gratuitous and unparliamentary remark relating—it's so outrageously offensive that I do not even wish to repeat it but I invite him to withdraw and apologise.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I'll ask the Hon Andrew Little to indicate whether that's correct or not.Hon Andrew Little: Mr Speaker without knowing what the allegation specifically is it's a bit hard to respond to it. I think the member apparently took offence at my reference to some of the donors to the National Party. If that's offensive in a democracy then we are in a very very difficult state.Chris Bishop: Speaking to the point of order. It is a breach of the Standing Orders—CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No no I'll rule on it. I did not hear the comment and so I can't make a ruling on whether it was in order or not in order. Every member is honourable and the Hon Andrew Little has stated that he believes it was not out of order. Therefore I'm accepting his word on that. If you have another point of order I'm happy to hear it.Chris Bishop: Speaking to the point of order.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No no you're not.David Seymour: Fresh point of order.Chris Bishop: New point of order.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Order! I'm on my feet so yeah—I have made the ruling. That's the end of it.David Seymour: Point of order. A fresh point of order: when the Minister of Health Andrew Little most recently rose to his feet he actually appeared to incriminate himself by indicating that he had imputed motives on the National Party due to their donors. Now you know as a fresh point of order I'd say if he stands up and incriminates himself for breaching the Standing Orders he should withdraw and apologise.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Order! That is not a fresh point of order.Hon Kris Faafoi: Point of order Mr Chair. Chris Bishop: Point of order—it's a fresh point of order.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No I'm hearing this one first. E noho. I'm hearing this point of order.Hon Kris Faafoi: Mr Chair I was just saying that when I was interrupted for that point of order I was at a minute 10 to go on the clock and I see it's run down so just making sure you're aware of that.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Yep.Chris Bishop: Point of order. There are longstanding Speakers' rulings—I was trying to remember my original point. I refer you to 52/4 which goes all the way back to 1933 Speaker Statham: A member may not (1) impute improper motives to the Government; (2) suggest that the Government received orders to put a bill through; (3) impute dishonesty to the Government; (4) suggest domination by outside bodies." That applies equally to members of the Opposition. It is quite wrong to impute allegations in the sense that the Minister was making and he gave himself away by admitting it.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Not in my opinion. I'll reset the clock just a minute. Hon KRIS FAAFOI: Before that exchange I was making the point that we are supporting small and medium sized enterprises who at the moment are finding it extremely difficult because they haven't been able to come to an arrangement.Now this bill or these changes to the Property Law Act will give the ability—for those who don't have a clause already in their leases—to come to some form of rent relief the ability to do that. The changes that have come about through Supplementary Order Paper 78 under the Property Law Act will ensure that revenue losses are taken into consideration when a fair proportion of rent relief is calculated that there is an onus on parties to engage within 10 days when another party raises an issue with them and there's a retrospectivity issue of 18 August to ensure that this is meaningful for the businesses who have been finding things extremely difficult since this alert level change that was announced on 17 August.Now also a lot has been said about whether or not there is support for these measures and I would like to say to those allegations that they don't necessarily stack up. I have enjoyed engaging with the likes of the Property Council and the Auckland District Law Society despite what they have said to ensure that this bill is better.What I want to make sure is a very clear message to those who are watching tonight—those small and medium sized enterprises who are up against the wall who have no means of being able to come to a fair proportion of rent with their landlords at the moment who don't have any ability to do anything about that—is that the National Party and the ACT Party the alleged champions of small and medium enterprise are voting against this.CHRIS BISHOP (National): Point of order Mr Chair. I've been reflecting upon what you said before. I want to seek your ruling on whether it is now in order for members to say that members of Parliament act in a certain way because of outside influence. If that is correct—in particular in relation to payment and I refer you to Speaker's ruling 53/2 Speaker Robertson in the Chair "It would be out of order to suggest that a member takes payment to act in a certain way and the member must be careful not to do that." That is precisely what the Minister alleged. And if that is now the case frankly I worry about where that may lead and I would invite you to reflect on that because that is precisely what the Minister said.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): If the member is speaking about both the alleged interjection or the response to it I've made a ruling and I'm not inclined to go back on it. I will go back and have a look at it to make sure that that ruling was in order to make. I believe it was and I guess continued litigation of both the incident and my ruling in my opinion is out of order. But I will take that on board. There's been by my calculation at least almost a dozen points of order in the last hour—a couple every five minutes. If I've got it wrong then I will say that to the House and let you know. But for the time being Andrew Bayly.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Point of order Mr Chair. I'm very reluctant to prolong this but I might be able to assist. In my view the Standing Orders are all still perfectly upstanding and upheld. The fact is that the member who has subsequently departed has said that he didn't breach them because he's denied that he said any particular thing; so there's no breach of the Standing Orders regardless of what he said. He said he didn't we take him at his word the rules are still there it's still wrong to impugn improper motives on members—we're all good to go!CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): And I'm fairly sure that's what I said that I would go and do and that I would look at what my part of it was. This time Mr Bayly OK?"