Calder Cam: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Calder Cam: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:678;Page:980] 
5. 
Dr CAM CALDER (National) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: What progress has been made on the proposal to build a public-private prison at Wiri? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 Today the Minister of Finance and I announced that the Government has chosen a consortium of companies to design finance build operate and maintain the new 960-bed prison at Wiri. Construction will start in the second half of this year once the 25-year contract has been finalised. The prison is expected to open in 2015. The new prison at Wiri will help meet growing demand for prisoner accommodation in Auckland. The new prison not only will get better results but also is excellent value for the taxpayers.  
Dr Cam Calder 
: What are the advantages of using a public-private partnership to build and operate the prison at Wiri?  
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: This is a great deal for the taxpayers because the maximum cost of the contract is capped at a level equivalent to 10 percent less than procuring the prison through traditional means and the contract with the provider will have strong performance incentives ensuring we receive a superior service to that provided by publicly run prisons or we pay a lower price. The provider will need to achieve lower recidivism rates than the average for publicly run prisons to receive incentive payments. It will also face financial penalties if it fails to meet short-term rehabilitation and reintegration measures.  
Hone Harawira 
: What reports has she seen regarding the increased recidivism rates amongst Native Americans in public-private prisons in the United States and can she tell the House what support the Maori Party has given for public-private prisons like the one at Wiri that are expected to follow the same trends?  
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: In answer to the first part of that question no but I would dispute the member’s assertion. Actually this contract that we are talking about today will take a fundamentally different approach. It is strongly focused on results and particularly focused on results for Maori offenders and we are requiring the contractor to provide better results than the State system. This approach of incentivising a contractor to focus on results is beyond the immediate scope of the service like recidivism. This is an international first. 
Charles Chauvel 
: Supplementary question—[ 
Interruption 
]  
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I have called Charles Chauvel. 
Charles Chauvel 
: What are the locations around New Zealand of the existing State-owned prison units that she described today as “very old and coming to the end of their viable life” and that “will need to close”? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: No prisons will need to close as a direct result of the decision announced today. However it is well known that some of our prisons are very old. Some of them were built in the 19th century and are coming to the end of their useful life. I am not going to give specific locations— 
Charles Chauvel 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked a very direct question. I asked the Minister not about which prisons were going to close but about which existing State-owned and State-run prison units that she described today as “very old and coming to the end of their viable life” and that “will need to close” and I do not think the Minister is in a position to refuse to give that information. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept the member’s point. That was indeed the question he asked. The Minister should either answer it or declare that it is not in the public interest to do so but that was a very straight question. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [ 
Interruption 
]  
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! A point of order has been raised. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I think that when a Minister stands up and attempts to give some context to the questioner’s question—in other words not dismissing it but accepting it as a valid question—but then goes on to say “I am not going to release that today.” it is reasonable to assume that there is a good public interest requirement being met in not answering that question directly. 
Charles Chauvel 
: Point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not think I need to hear any more. If the Minister is indicating that she believes that it is not in the public interest to answer that question that is the end of the matter. 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: If I had been allowed to finish I would have said that we are obliged to carry out consultations with staff and I do not wish to pre-empt that.  
Grant Robertson 
: But you just thought you’d say it this morning. 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: And I did say today publicly that an announcement would be made soon. 
Charles Chauvel 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect that still does not address the question which was phrased deliberately and directly and independently of any need to consult with the staff because the Minister’s statement which I will seek leave to table identifies the clear fact that there are units that need to close— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member has heard the Minister’s full answer there and I think that has to be accepted. The Minister is saying that in her opinion it is not in the public interest to name any such units prior to consultation with those involved in I believe operational staffing of those units. That is a perfectly reasonable answer. The member can seek leave to table documents—that is fine—but that is a perfectly reasonable answer.