Little Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLittle Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 13 April 2016. Volume:713;Page:10454. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]2.ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he have any financial interests which may affect his decisions around foreign trusts; if so what are those financial interests?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): No.Andrew Little: Did he disclose to Cabinet his links to Antipodes Trust Group when making decisions on the review of foreign trusts in New Zealand?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I rely on the members knowing about my pecuniary interests.Andrew Little: Did he send John Shewan and Don Brash to the Bahamas in 2014 to advise that Government on tax matters?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes. I think they went to talk to them about GST.Andrew Little: Can he confirm that John Shewan and Don Brash advised the Bahamas that its financial services be zero-rated for value-added tax in order to protect the offshore services industry of that country?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No. I am not aware of that level of detail.Andrew Little: I seek leave to table an article from a Bahamas news outlet not widely available—[Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member is seeking leave to table a document. I want to listen to what it is. If there are interjections coming from particularly my far-right quadrant that makes it difficult. Would the member start his introduction again as to what the document is.Andrew Little: Thank you Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table a media report from the Bahamas not widely available on the advice given by John Shewan and Don Brash to the Bahamas Government to the effect that international financial services be treated as zero-rated to protect—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The document has been well and truly described. I will put the leave and the House will decide. Leave is sought to table that particular media article from the Bahamas. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Andrew Little: Does he not see that there is a fundamental problem with appointing a person to review our foreign trust laws who has advised a Government on how to protect its tax haven status?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The member has proven over the last 2 weeks that he is completely unfit to judge who—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! That is a straight personal reflection on the member who has asked the question and that will be ruled out of order. Would the Prime Minister stand now and answer the question. [Interruption] Well I have not heard the answer. [Interruption] Order! I have not heard the answer so I am going to invite the member to re-ask the question so I can hear the answer.Andrew Little: Does he not see that there is a fundamental problem with appointing a person to review our foreign trust laws who has advised a Government on how to protect its tax haven status?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I cannot confirm whether the Bahamas is a tax haven or not—I simply do not know. I do not think the member would know either.Andrew Little: How can New Zealanders have any confidence in his judgment as Prime Minister on tax-dodging foreign trusts when he has links to Antipodes Trust Group a company specialising in foreign trusts?Mr SPEAKER: It is a very marginal question as to whether there is prime ministerial responsibility but I will let the Minister address it.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have fully disclosed my positions. As is quite clear I am not going to go into those because I have no prime ministerial responsibility for them but I am quite confident that I understand my positions and I am quite confident that they are above board. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order!Andrew Little: Why in answer to my question yesterday where I asked “has he ever been involved personally or professionally in a foreign trust or other vehicle used to reduce tax” did he fail to disclose his links with Antipodes Trust Group a business that specialises in foreign trusts?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I am not involved in a foreign trust. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am referring to the front bench of the National Party. Order!Andrew Little: Why is his trust run by a firm that specialises in helping the mega-wealthy set up foreign trusts to dodge tax?Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! No. In that particular case that question is definitely out of order. There is no prime ministerial responsibility. I can clarify my ruling there if it would help if there are any further supplementary questions: “Individual Ministers are not responsible for the Register of Pecuniary Interests. That is a thing that members of Parliament are required to comply with. However Ministers are responsible for their management of conflicts of interest and where there is a potential conflict of interest with the Minister’s portfolio interests then there is a legitimate ground for questioning.” I refer members to Speaker’s ruling 172/1. A Minister may be asked about financial or other interests only in so far as it involves potential conflicts of interests relating to his or her portfolios and in the case of the Prime Minister there is a responsibility for every portfolio but he still only has ministerial responsibility for potential conflicts of interest. I would also take this opportunity to draw members’ attention to Speaker’s ruling 171/4 which states that “A question whose sole purpose is to pry into a member’s private affairs is not in order”. The Cabinet Manual makes it clear that Ministers do have additional requirements in respect of personal interests because of the influence and power they can exercise. Ministers are responsible for identifying reviewing and managing conflicts of interest and that is a legitimate subject for questioning in the House today or any day. The member may want to rephrase that question.Andrew Little: How can New Zealanders have any confidence in his judgment as Prime Minister and the management of his conflicts of interest when days after appointing somebody to investigate our foreign trust and tax-dodging laws he discloses he has money deposited with Antipodes Trust Group given that that arrangement is not standard practice for the management of trusts?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: It is standard.Andrew Little: Can he give New Zealanders a cast-iron assurance in relation to the management of his conflicts of interest that the money he has with Antipodes Trust Group is not associated with any vehicle designed to avoid tax?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have made it quite clear: it is money that is held in my name that is in with a New Zealand trading bank. It is no different to anybody else and pretty much any lawyer around New Zealand does trust work.Andrew Little: In relation to that last question and the management of the Prime Minister’s conflicts of interest given that his trust lawyers say “client information is kept strictly confidential. Reporting requirements are limited and the identity of the settlor and beneficiaries need not be disclosed.” why does he still say that New Zealand has full disclosure of information in relation to its foreign trust law?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Because it does and actually interestingly enough a specialist trust firm is subject to part one of the anti - money-laundering rules. It has to know the source of client it is subjected to 2-yearly reviews and it is subjected to full disclosure of any information that is asked of it with countries that have either a double tax agreement or an information-sharing agreement. Actually they are basically the crème de la crème of making sure that there is proper disclosure.Andrew Little: Has he ever had any links to any companies or other financial vehicles that are used to reduce tax?Mr SPEAKER: I do not see a prime ministerial responsibility in that question.Chris Hipkins: Point of order.Mr SPEAKER: Point of order—[Interruption] Order! [Interruption] Order!Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think as you have made very clear in your ruling the entire line of questioning has been around potential conflicts of interest for the Prime Minister and I think it is perfectly legitimate for the Leader of the Opposition to be testing that.Mr SPEAKER: No I just ruled—the member is right about most of the questions but he is not right about that question. There was no mention of potential conflicts of interest as I heard the question.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a different point of order.Mr SPEAKER: Order! Can I just clarify—we had an issue yesterday where I asked the member whether he was raising a fresh point of order and he said it was. I reviewed it and it certainly was not. I do get a bit impatient when we continue to relitigate matters. If the member does have a fresh point of order I am happy to hear it but if it is in any way questioning whether I have just made the right call in saying that question was in order or out of order that is then just questioning me as a Speaker and that in itself is very disorderly.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Speaking to the point of order.Mr SPEAKER: No I have a point of order here first—or do I not? [Interruption] A fresh point of order from the Hon David Parker.Hon David Parker: I believe it is and I accept your comment about yesterday. The Prime Minister to the New Zealand public and to this Parliament quite often relies upon his expertise in banking and his experience as an international member of that industry prior to election to justify his expertise and his views on matters. Mr Speaker the flip side of that is when we come to other issues that relate to international banking. The history of the Prime Minister’s experience is relevant to the views that he has and if it is relevant on the positive side I suggest that the Opposition must have some latitude in respect of exploring issues where those same ethics—and I do not mean that to impugn—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Bring the point to an end please.Hon David Parker:—the ethics there—and those same factual bases become relevant from another point of view.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The questions from the Leader of the Opposition have been in relation to a conflict of interest about a foreign trust. I have never had a foreign trust I do not have a foreign trust and therefore I cannot have a conflict of interest with one.Mr SPEAKER: Does the member have a further supplementary question?Andrew Little: Yes one more.Mr SPEAKER: Further supplementary—unless I am required to rule on Mr Parker’s point but I would simply say that I have in my opinion given latitude to the Leader of the Opposition throughout his questioning apart from one at the very end which I am comfortable I have ruled out of order and should have done so because in my opinion it was prying into matters for which there was no prime ministerial responsibility.Andrew Little: Does he think that he can properly manage his conflicts of interest as Prime Minister if he does not give New Zealanders a cast-iron assurance that he has had no links to any companies or other financial vehicles that are used to reduce tax?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I just answered that in the point I made earlier. I have never had a foreign trust and I pay my fair share of tax. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! I do not want to have to mention the name of the member twice in 2 days.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Referring to his statement that New Zealand is not a tax haven is the Antipodes Trust Group Ltd a foreign trust operation or a domestic trust operation?Mr SPEAKER: There is no prime ministerial responsibility for that at all. That is about the member’s pecuniary interests. I made a ruling earlier.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is not about his pecuniary interests. I am asking about the status of an operation that he is familiar with because of his connection with the chief executive and lawyer namely the man who set it up. That is not a matter of pecuniary interest. I want to know the facts.Mr SPEAKER: I listened carefully to the question and it did not meet the requirements that I established quite clearly during question time today.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. If we are going to get at the truth of this matter I want to know as a point of clarity from you what the offence that I am engaging in here is if I am asking for the status of a trust operation that is now out in the media and known by everybody.Mr SPEAKER: Because I have just ruled that that is a matter associated with the member’s pecuniary interests return and as I said earlier that is a responsibility for every member of Parliament in this place. It is not something for which there is a specific prime ministerial responsibility.