Woods Megan; Rurawhe AdrianHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing): I find it somewhat reassuring that around this House this afternoon from Chris Bishop to Grant Robertson to David Seymour we've had an absolute underscoring of the importance of the independence of our police and the independence of our Police Commissioner. I think it's been absolutely right and proper that people have returned time and time again in their contributions in this debate to section 16 of the Policing Act. That lays out very clearly what the responsibilities are: both of the Minister and the Commissioner. I think it speaks to the heart of who we want to be as a country. It's been said previously in this urgent debate that one of the things that none of us want here for New Zealand is to live in a country where our politicians have the ability to unduly influence members of our police force when it comes to matters of investigations—or the judiciary when it comes to matters of sentencing. I think it is a fundamental of who we believe we are in New Zealand. So we've had laid out very clearly what the Commissioner is responsible to the Minister for: carrying out the functions and duties of the police … the general conduct of the police … the effective efficient and economical management of the police … [to tender] advice to the Minister and Ministers of the Crown and [to give effect] to any lawful ministerial decisions [that are being made]". But it is also really important what the Commissioner is not responsible for. And the Commissioner must act independently of any Minister of the Crown including the person acting on the instruction of a Minister of the Crown. And it lays out very clearly—and this strikes to the heart of who we want to be as a country: "the maintenance of order into relation to any individual or group of individuals … the enforcement of the law in relation to any individual or group of individuals … the investigation and prosecution of offences; and decisions about individual Police employees." It is a timely reminder to us all as politicians that there are very clear demarcations when it comes to our police and to our judiciary in terms of what we should and shouldn't be thinking that we have the ability to comment on. We have this separation of powers for a very good reason.What we've seen here today is a Minister who has breached the Cabinet Manual in relation to what we hold the line on as so important in terms of the independence of our police and the independence of our judiciary. We have a Minister who is suffering the consequences of breaching the Cabinet Manual on that. We have a Prime Minister who has shown leadership; he has acted quickly and he has acted decisively because as a Prime Minister Chris Hipkins knows how fundamentally important it is to us as a country that we do uphold those very important principles. We have heard people say that therefore he should resign all his portfolios but I think the Prime Minister has made a decision that speaks to the transgression being in relation to such an important part of being the Minister of Police. There is an onus on the Minister of Police that is quite different to the interactions the Ministers have with chief executives in other areas in terms of that independence of what can—and can't—and who does what being laid out so explicitly in statute in the Policing Act: that is for a very good reason and it has been talked about in this House throughout this debate. It is the transgression of those that has meant the Prime Minister has made the quick and decisive call that we cannot have a Minister of Police that has transgressed those very clear boundaries and has accepted his resignation. My colleague Grant Robertson talked about this being a consequence for the Minister in question who did tender his resignation to the Prime Minister because he did see that there had been a breach of the Cabinet Manual—that this is something that he will be feeling. We know as colleagues of Minister Nash just how dearly he holds the police portfolio so this isn't something that he will see as just a small consequence for an action. He will be feeling very clearly the gravity of the consequence of this action. The other question that's come up in this is: is it appropriate for Ministers to be mates with the police? That's been something that has been raised. I think that one of the things that we have to make sure that we are doing as Ministers—and this has been acknowledged in what has happened today—is that we demonstrate a professional approach and good judgment in our interactions with officials. That is a central thing that you take on when you become a Minister. And as Grant Robertson spoke about as Ministers we have to traverse that line being local MPs often as well. I know—and it's a timely day to remark on it—that as the Member of Parliament for Wigram while being a Minister March 15 occurred with Al Noor Mosque being in my electorate. I spent a lot of time interacting our District Commander John Price around the welfare of the community around what was happening with the community but never did I see it as something that was appropriate for me to suggest what operationally the police should be doing. It is something that we all do have to bear in mind and often be quite explicit in our interactions with police especially when we are Ministers because we cannot be seen to be putting that undue influence on them. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have interactions with the police. We are a country of only several million people that often especially back in our home patches there are going to be those interactions so we need to be making sure that we tread that line in a careful way but in a sensible and pragmatic way that does allow us to do our jobs as local MPs.I think it is also a reminder of just how important to us as a country—to the separation of powers that we hold dear in this country—that at times yes the political debate around crime and justice can get heated. But it is also a careful reminder that as members of this House we have a responsibility to not treat this as a game. We have a responsibility to hold those divisions that stand there in good stead to make sure that we are respecting those divisions. It's all well and good to sometimes imagine you're in the locker room talking tough about some of these issues but there are clear divisions that need to be adhered to. It is each and every member of this House's responsibility to make sure that they are adhering to those divisions because as we know this place can be a tough place when you make an error of judgment and that is what we have seen today: someone is having the consequence of losing a job that they held dear in terms of being Minister of Police. And that is correct; that is the right thing to have happened: for Minister Nash to have tendered his resignation to the Prime Minister and a Prime Minister—who has shown leadership—has acted quickly and decisively. Because he is clear with us as a Cabinet with us as a group of Ministers that we have to make sure that we are upholding the highest of standards; that we are ensuring that when there are breaches of the Cabinet Manual they are dealt with; that they are made sure that the consequences are there. And I think that that's what most people will see: someone here exercised an error of judgment; they did something that wasn't correct and there has been a consequence. They haven't just come out and said "I'm sorry I won't do that again". There has been a real and lasting consequence of someone not serving in the portfolio that they held so dear. So it has been heartening to me listening to this debate that across this House we can see the gravity that this issue is being taken with because it is serious and it should be serious to all of us as elected representatives in this House. It should be something that all New Zealanders hold dear. We have no desire to live in a country where our politicians meddle with our police force. We have no desire to live in a country where political decisions are made about operational police matters. It is right and proper that the divisions and the Policing Act exist and it is something that our Prime Minister has shown today that we take incredibly seriously as a Government.SPEAKER: I indicated earlier that any unallocated time I would allocate now. There's 10 minutes left; I propose two five-minute calls. Any member can seek it now."