English Bill: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
English Bill: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
[Volume:648;Page:17463] 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader—National) 
: 
 I wonder whether the Minister in the chair the Hon Dr Michael Cullen is able to answer a couple of questions regarding the Government’s KiwiSaver proposals. First there now seems to be a good deal of confusion and even more concern about where KiwiSaver might be headed so can the Minister tell us whether the Government is actually proposing some legislation? It is difficult to get to grips fully with the detail or implied detail of the Hon Trevor Mallard’s proposals until or unless there is legislation so we would like to know about that. 
Secondly given this issue is very contentious more among employees in my view than among employers—a very contentious issue—can the Government give some reassurance that if it decides to put this measure on a fast track as some kind of pretence at a costless pre-election bribe it will allow an opportunity for those people who in every workplace in New Zealand will be affected by it to have some say on it? Just in case anyone is concerned about why people should be allowed some say on what sounds like a technical measure can the Minister explain why the Government is moving away from a long-held principle of employment law—the principle of equal remuneration—and does he concede that the proposal put up by Trevor Mallard will have the effect that people who were on the same pay working alongside each other in a workplace doing the same job will end up on different pay? The one who is able to go into KiwiSaver will be paid more and the other who cannot or does not want to go into KiwiSaver will be paid less. In the terms that the Minister originally proposed that strikes us as divisive and unfair in any workplace because in every workplace there are people who cannot afford to go into KiwiSaver or who for their own good reasons like wanting to pay off their own debt do not go into KiwiSaver. But the Government seems keen to punish them. 
I might point out to the Minister the comments of Matt McCarten one of his erstwhile colleagues or erstwhile allies—not a colleague but an ally and now a strong opponent from what I can see—who has pointed out that the people who will be hardest hit by this are the low paid. A small proportion of the workforce can go into KiwiSaver and become a privileged few in the workplace at the expense of other workers. That is really the key issue. If some people are to get paid more because the Government has legislated for it others are to get paid less. 
Can the Minister answer some of the questions about borrowing which he raised yesterday with some vigour and enthusiasm? Can he contradict as he should what he said in the House today? Will he confirm that in the 2008 Budget the Government as the Minister has acknowledged clocks up an average cash deficit of $3.5 billion over the next 4 years and can he confirm that he is financing that deficit in two ways—first by selling State assets: $4.6 billion of financial securities which are just as much an asset— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Ha ha! 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Oh so they are not real assets? They are $4.5 billion worth with the taxpayer’s name on them and he is going to sell them to cover his cash deficit. 
But that is only half. He is going to borrow $4.5 billion to cover the other half of his cash deficit. So how will the Minister in the chair manage to do that? It will be perhaps in the fashion of Mr Peters’ approach—you know the guy who is doing it is the one who is most vigorously accusing everyone else of doing it. In this case Dr Cullen is actually doing the borrowing and apparently that is less significant less politically relevant than the hypothesis that a National Government might do some borrowing. I would like the Minister just to clear up his position. After his having said for 7 years that any tax cut means borrowing how does he now explain the fact that in the 2008 Budget he is cutting taxes—contradicting everything he has ever said—and that he is borrowing?