edithatogo/nz-hansard-corpus huggingface dataset:
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3444] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I warn the member that if you are challenging my ruling then that is a serious offence. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think what I am doing is maintaining the rights of traditional Chairs in the Chamber to make their own decisions and not to be rubber stamps as you indicated you were to the Committee—that you would always act on advice. That is not how a Chair should act. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: That is a direct challenge to my role and my authority and the discretion that I have to rule out an amendment. That is the end of the matter. I have made the ruling. That is where it stands.
Tisch Lindsay: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3444] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I have made a ruling that a decision on whether an amendment is proceeded with is at the discretion of the Chair. I have made that ruling and I have explained why I have made that ruling and that is the end of the matter. We are now going to proceed.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think I am now challenging your ruling on the grounds of my right to make a point of order. That is something that I think is intrinsic to that of a member of Parliament.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Is it a new point of order? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Yes it is. It goes to in fact two things that you have said. First in your last ruling you said that you would— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: You are challenging my ruling. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: No I am not challenging your ruling at all. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I ask you to sit. I have made a decision and we are proceeding because in my view you are challenging my ruling. We are moving on to the next amendment.
Guy Nathan: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Guy Nathan: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
NATHAN GUY (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think you need to be a little bit careful in that members opposite are starting to trifle with the ruling that you have already set down as Chair. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Thank you. It is my authority and at my discretion to make the decision and I have so done. We will proceed. There is to be no further discussion on this point.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I do not want to relitigate your ruling other than to ask you one question. Having made your rulings which of course are the first time that we get any notice of them are you prepared to entertain discussion on those or additional matters being put? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The member knows there is no discussion on the amendments. I have made a decision and we are proceeding as per my advice.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 So I am to take it you are saying it is the same although the definition of “hegemony” that I have is “leadership” according to the authoritative dictionary I have here which does not appear to be the same meaning “in substance” as your advice is. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No I do not need any help. I have made a ruling and that amendment has been ruled out. We now move to the next amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins an amendment to clause 9(2) to—
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I perhaps anticipated your ruling on this. The dictionary that was provided to me by one of the messengers talks about “leadership” as a definition of “hegemony”. The definition also talks about “ruling supreme”. I would like you if you would to point me to the previous amendment—the one where it is duplicated in substance. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The words “hegemony” and “dominance” mean the same on my advice and that is why this amendment has been ruled out. We have already voted on the previous one.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 If it is the same in substance which amendment is it the same in substance to? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The meaning of the word is the same.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3443] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I just ask for clarification. Are you saying that that particular wording has already been voted on? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No it is the same in substance as an amendment already voted on. “Substance” was one of the reasons given earlier as to why we would not proceed with amendments.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3442] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The next amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins is the same as an amendment that has previously been voted on so we will rule that one out of order. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Are you sure of that? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: That amendment omits the words “powers of a regional council” and replaces them with the words “powers and hegemony of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3442] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and authorisation of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3442] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and prerogative of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3442] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and capability of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3441] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and dominance of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3441] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and influence of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3441] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: As previously mentioned by the temporary Chair the next amendment is ruled out of order. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (9) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and sway of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3441] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and vigour of a regional council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3440] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and weight of a regional council”.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3440] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I will talk in two parts. Firstly I am supportive of the contribution that Mr Cosgrove made recently and I elaborate a little bit more on that by saying that I am sure that the courts are interested in nuance and that they will look really carefully at any amendment that is passed and at the intention of Parliament in that way. 
The more substantive question goes to what the parliamentary role of the Opposition is. The roles are opposing and proposing. Traditionally one of the best tools for proper consideration of legislation in the New Zealand Parliament the House of Commons the House of Lords on occasion and certainly in the Senate of the United States has been delay. This is something that Oppositions in democratic countries around the world have used when there have not been good processes—especially when there have not been good processes—or when legislation has not been sent to a select committee as in the case of New Zealand. One of the fundamental rights of an Opposition is to work to delay legislation. In doing that testing Parliament around nuances and having a more intense debate than would otherwise be the case is a fundamental part of the rights of the Opposition. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I thank the member. I will signal in advance to members—so that hopefully we do not have debate on each of the proposed amendments—that on the basis of advice relating to Speaker’s ruling 112/1 and the commentary in  
McGee 
 at page 379 the intent is to declare the fourth amendment relating to the “powers and brawn of a regional council” out of order as being not serious and to declare the ninth amendment which is the matter that was referred to by the Hon Gerry Brownlee as out of order on the ground that it is not serious. I intend to invite members to vote on the other amendments that are proposed. 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour—Manurewa) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Just so I am clear on which amendments you have ruled out would you please read them out? 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I have ruled out the amendments to substitute “powers and brawn of a regional council” and “the power to ignore all community input as per the intent of this horrible legislation”. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “powers of a regional council” and substitute “powers and muscle of a regional council”.
Hughes Darren: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Hughes Darren: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3439] 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 If members do not like amendments which is fair they can vote against them. The Government is now taking more time complaining about these amendments than would have been taken if it had simply voted them down. I accept that Mrs Turia does not like the amendment; she can vote it down—she can vote against it. She interjects that it is stupid but she has been voting for these amendments all day today and all day yesterday. We do not need lectures from her about that. In the end what is open to members is the chance to vote against amendments that they do not like which is the process that the Parliament has. 
Finally some of these amendments are based on language that the Minister of Local Government has used in describing this legislation. He has described it as “requiring more muscle”. He has described it in these sorts of ways and our amendments are based on what the Minister himself has said he is trying to achieve by this legislation.
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3439] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. To further help the consideration that I know you are giving this matter I refer you to an amendment to clause 9(2) of Part 2 which states: “by omitting the words ‘the responsibilities duties and powers of a regional council’ and replacing them with ‘the power to ignore all community input as per the intent of this horrible legislation’.” That is a vexatious amendment and should be treated as such.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3439] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I make one other submission to you. I note that you are a lawyer— 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I have ruled on this matter. If it is a new point of order I am happy to hear it. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: It is a new point of order. I note that you are a lawyer and the Leader of the House is not and I just say— 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I am not sure that that is relevant. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: You will appreciate that the courts in interpreting legislation will find a difference in the term “power” as opposed to the term “power and influence”. As a number of these amendments have been put forward the courts will interpret a difference in those words. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I thank the member for the dissertation on that point. I will take that into account as the member would imagine.
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3439] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I want to reinforce what the Hon Tariana Turia has just said to the Committee and to explain to my colleague on the other side that I am not attempting to shut down the process that allows amendments to be made but I am imploring the Chair to take a view as to whether a series of amendments that choose to add the words “powers and muscle” “powers and weight” “powers and vigour” “powers and brawn” “powers and sway” “powers and influence” “powers and dominance” etc. are serious amendments or whether they are simply vexatious amendments designed to take up the time of the Committee. I submit that they are vexatious because they do not add anything to the bill. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I do not think I need any further assistance but thank you. I think we need to be clear about the fact that there is no arithmetic test just because the relevant part of the bill happens to have so many words. That does not have any sort of bearing on the right or entitlement of members to move the number and type of amendments that they see fit. I assure members that I will look at each of the proposed amendments with regard to the Standing Orders the Speakers’ rulings particularly Speaker’s ruling 112/1 and the commentary in  
McGee 
 at page 379. In fact I will take just a moment to do that now.
Turia Tariana: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Turia Tariana: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3438] 
Hon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader—Maori Party) 
: 
 There is a big difference between not allowing amendments and not allowing vexatious amendments such as these. I am opposed to this legislation but I am opposed to the waste of time in this Committee of vexatious amendments. [ 
Interruption 
] 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: The member is entitled to speak to the point of order. I called her and she will be heard in silence.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3438] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I make a couple of points to you Mr Chairperson. As we have gone through this process your predecessors have built up a body of precedent. In regard to the naming of amendments in respect of geographic areas they have talked about whether those amendments are serious. Whether a clause has 150 words or 1500 words in it we cannot get to a situation in this Chamber where a Government is truncating the process through urgency and then calls on the Chairperson to truncate or delete the right of the Opposition to put up amendments. If that is upheld then that creates a huge precedent whereby members of this Parliament can have amendments ruled out of order holus-bolus. That strikes at the heart of our process. Whether a clause has one word 150 words or 1500 words it is always the right of members of Parliament to put up amendments. 
I find it extraordinary that the Leader of the House who has got his own way in ramming this legislation through under urgency would then seek to accelerate the process again by taking away the democratic right of members of Parliament to propose amendments. He is seeking to have whole bodies of amendments ruled out of order because he does not like them. It is inappropriate.
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3438] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. My point of order relates to the series of amendments that are proposed here. I submit to you Mr Chairperson that this part of the bill has just 150 words in it but we have in front of us some 825 amendments proposed by our opponents on the opposite side of the Chamber. That is great; they have been hard at work doing it. But to accept these amendments as being reasonable and to say that this is perfectly acceptable and not vexatious I think is a little bit of a stretch. This is particularly the case when one is asking to omit “powers of a regional council” and substitute it with “powers and muscle of a regional council” “powers and weight of a regional council” “powers and vigour of a regional council” “powers and brawn of a regional council” “powers and sway of a regional council” “powers and influence of a regional council” or “powers and dominance of a regional council”. 
This is totally misusing the Committee’s time. These are not serious amendments; they do not materially alter the intention of the bill. They are simply vexatious and designed to take up time and the Labour Party being able to exercise itself in this way adds to the extraordinary cost imposed on taxpayers. Considered amendments are being well treated by the Committee as was shown by the result yesterday when some 700 or 800 amendments were put up and one was accepted.
[Volume:654;Page:3438] 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: The situation was that there was an incorrect recording of the votes. The leader of a party pointed that out in respect of three votes. I have read out so that the Committee is very clear the precise nature of each of the amendments and I have recorded the corrected tally. I do not think it is the same matter to which the member refers but I thank him for his point of order. 
We come then to the amendment to subclause (2) in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to—
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3438] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We had quite a discussion last night when Mr Tisch was in the Chair about the suggestion of Mr Tremain that votes could be grouped or taken as read. It was made quite clear by Mr Tisch that that could not happen and that votes had to be taken individually. My submission to you is that the results have to be declared individually as well.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3437] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I do not think you read them out in full as you corrected them and you did not associate the votes with each of them as you read them out in full. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: Given that the votes are identical I do not think there is any requirement to be clearer in substance than I have been.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3437] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think it is incumbent on you to declare each of those results separately. You cannot group a set of amendments and results. You have to declare each result again separately. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I think I made the rulings and the record sufficiently clear. I read out the particular amendments in full and I do not think that the record needs further clarification.
Turia Tariana: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Turia Tariana: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3437] 
Hon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader—Maori Party) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Can I hear the vote counts again? I think it was said that there were 64 Ayes and 57 Noes. We voted against the amendment and we are being counted in with the Ayes. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I thank the member for the point of order. We will clarify the vote for the record. 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I think it will be for the previous three votes. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I will take the honourable member’s word as to the vote of the Maori Party obviously on those last three votes. That means the Ayes were 52 and the Noes were 69 on each of those votes. On the amendments relating to the “Auckland Supremo Council” the “My Neighbourhood Council” and the “Neighbourhood Plus their Neighbourhood Council” the vote tallies on a corrected basis are 52 for the Ayes and 69 for the Noes.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3437] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Again I seek some clarification. Although the themes of the previous amendment and this one are similar the wording is different. It talks about a “Greater Auckland” area. As you will be aware the previous amendment talked about Auckland itself. This one talks about the “Greater Auckland” area. As we know clause 9 expunges eight councils bringing together a series of councils into a greater Auckland city. I put it to you that it is a different amendment. It is not a duplication. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: My ruling on the amendment is that I find it to be substantially duplicative of the previous amendment. I probably ought to have ruled the previous amendment out of order as not serious but I decided to allow a vote on it. I do not think we will take that matter further.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3437] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to.  
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 57 Noes 64.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3436] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to.  
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Noes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 57 Noes 64.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3435] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: In respect of the next eight amendments I am advised that they are duplicates of amendments already proposed. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Auckland Supercity Council 2009”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3435] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Beaches Council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3435] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “City of Beaches Council”.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3434] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Just to finish that point if Mr Brownlee wanted to correct his “reinforcement” leave then there would be no objection from this side of the Chamber to him putting us back in the correct position. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: Thanks Mr Mallard. I do not think we need any further assistance on this matter. The reality is that the Chairperson asked me to assume his responsibilities on a temporary basis. It may have confused the matter to have referred to the issue of leave. I am satisfied that Standing Order 168(3) provides for the position on that basis. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: There is no doubt about that at all. It’s just that Gerry got it wrong. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: Well I do not think we need to go into the rights and wrongs of that. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Beach to Beach Council”.
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3434] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Standing Order 168(3) deals with the matter: “At any time during the sitting of a committee of the whole House and without any formal communication to the committee any member may at the request of the chairperson take the Chair as temporary chairperson.” Leave was sought this morning just to reinforce—virtually to notify Parliament or the Committee that various people would be relieving Mr Tisch throughout the morning. I think that some members are starting to trifle with the Chair in ways that bring the Chair into disrespect. I think some firm action may need to be taken.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3434] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This is a very technical point and it goes to the leave that was sought for you to take the Chair. I am now informed that in fact the leave of the House was sought for you to take the Chair. I ask whether that was accurate. In fact if what I am informed is accurate— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: No it was leave of the Committee. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: No I am briefed that the leave of the House was sought rather than the leave of the Committee. 
Hon John Carter 
: We were in Committee when it was taken. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I know we are in Committee. 
Hon John Carter 
: We were in Committee when it was taken. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I absolutely accept the point that Mr Carter has made. He is just reinforcing the point that I have made: the Committee cannot take leave on behalf of the House. My understanding is—I am briefed—that instead of seeking the leave of the Committee as Mr Brownlee should have done he sought the leave of the House when we were in fact in Committee. If that is the case then the leave is incorrect. Mr Chair I am not saying that you cannot be in the Chair; in fact you can be in the Chair at the invitation of a Chair without the leave of the Committee. But if we are relying on the leave asked for by Mr Brownlee then he should have sought the leave of the Committee and not of the House.
Horomia Parekura: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Horomia Parekura: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3433] 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour—Ikaroa-Rawhiti) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. One of the concerns I have is that as you go through the list of amendments the use of the word “seriousness” is something that I would like you to think about. The issue is about “Cousins and Aunts and Uncles of Maui Council” and “Step-Sisters and Step-Brothers of Maui Council”. In the sense of the English idiom and English culture that amendment may not be serious. But in Maori culture it is very very serious. The concepts of whanaungatanga of whangaitanga—of adoption—and of all of that in the cultural context is very very serious. I do not want to challenge your ruling but I certainly want to mention that. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Speaking to the point of order— 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: No I do not need any assistance thank you Mr Brownlee. I thank the member for his point of order but unfortunately I have already ruled on those matters and for that reason I am not going to revisit them. If we come to further amendments proposed—and I do not know whether we will—relating to the whanaungatanga of the Maui Council I will certainly bear those comments in mind.
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3433] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 The member in the Chair competent as he is is not a sanctioned officer. He is there by leave and does not have the authority to make such rulings. Therefore he is bound by the previously established conventions of the House. I also say that the entire series of points of order around this matter are out of order because Mr Chauvel was at all times as he has said obliged to uphold previous rulings. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I am not sure that that is an entirely helpful response actually. I am reasonably clear in my mind on the point raised by the Hon Trevor Mallard: it is not for the Chair to attempt to dissect proposed amendments and rule on whether they are either wholly or partially in order—either they are in order or they are not. It is certainly not the role of the Chair to amend proposed amendments to try to bring them into order. I will not take that point any further.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3433] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 This might be quite opposite to the point of view I put to you before but you are flexible and so is the Committee as far as we are concerned. I invite you to make a new ruling. It may be that you could make Speaker’s rulings relatively early in your career in the Chair.
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3432] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. As you are aware I have just relatively recently come into the Chamber and I am not aware of the earlier rulings. When you indicated that you were maintaining a ruling were you saying that you were maintaining a ruling that you had given or that one of your colleagues in the Chair— 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I beg your pardon for the novelty of my position but what I intended to say was that the previous Chair has given a series of rulings; I am trying to maintain the spirit of those rulings relating to what is serious and what is not. I believe that to rule the words “Auckland ex-Mayoral Council” out of order is consistent with the spirit of the previous rulings.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3432] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I draw your attention to the last amendment that you ruled out of order. I draw your attention to that one because clause 9 in Part 2 talks about the eight local authorities that will be expunged. Each of those local authorities has a mayor as its head. I put it to you that you may wish to consider that particular amendment as relevant because it talks about ex-mayors and eight of them will be out of a job as a result of the local authorities mentioned in clause 9 being disposed of. That is particularly relevant. I will not comment on the other clauses you have made your ruling on but I think that does indeed have some relevance. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: I thank the member for his point of order but I will maintain the ruling of the Chair. The section to which he refers does indeed do what he described but I do not think it is in order to then go on and expect the new body to be referred to in the way that is contended.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3432] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: The following amendments to omit the words “Auckland Council” and substitute the words “Everyone Belongs Council” “Big Chiefs Council” “Head and Heart of the City Council” and “Auckland ex-Mayoral Council” are ruled out of order as being not serious.
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) 
: 
 I am sure you will thank the Minister in the Chair for his assistance to you on this matter but when you say these amendments are not serious we are talking about Maui—Te-Ika-a-Maui—and so te whanau of Maui. I take from your ruling and the explanation from the Minister in the Chair that this belief essentially does not exist. Maybe it is in the imagination of Ngati Whatua and other Maori in the district. Well I can tell you now that that is not the case. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: We will maintain the ruling of the previous Chair. My understanding is that ruling relating to the amendment being not serious does not relate to the expressions concerning the Maui Council but rather to the cousins aunts and uncles reference on the one hand and the step-sisters and step-brothers reference on the other. So we will maintain the ruling. [ 
Interruption 
] No I have heard enough thank you. The member will resume his seat. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “City of Boats Council”.
Carter John: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Carter John: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government) 
: 
 It may help the Committee to say that the previous Chairperson has ruled that the title needs to relate to an area and region rather than to individuals or families. In this case amendments using the words “Cousins and Aunts” are actually about individuals or families as opposed to amendments about Auckland City or an Auckland region which have been ruled and then voted on. A number of amendments have been ruled out previously. The Chair is just being consistent with the previous rulings and we should continue to be consistent in that regard.
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) 
: 
 Please explain to members on this side of the Chamber what you mean by “not serious”.
King Colin: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
King Colin: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
COLIN KING (National—Kaikoura) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I beseech you to bring that rabble over there under control. They are trifling with you. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: That is not a point of order. I will hear the Hon Mita Ririnui. I am sorry I did not realise he had not finished.
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) 
: 
 Can we have an explanation for your ruling on that? A lot of work has gone into these amendments— 
Colin King 
: Speaking to the point of order. 
Hon Member 
: Sit down!
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Ririnui Mita: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. You say these amendments are not serious? 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: That is correct.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3431] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: The amendments that propose to substitute “Cousins and Aunts and Uncles of Maui Council” or “Step-Sisters and Step-Brothers of Maui Council” are ruled out of order as not serious.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3430] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: The next amendment is ruled out of order as not being a serious amendment. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Environmental Auckland Council”.
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3430] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We are just going to have a change here. Leave was sought by the Leader of the House earlier on for a replacement for me and Charles Chauvel will be chairing the session for the next half an hour. If members would bear with the new Chair while he comes to grips with what needs to happen. 
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Charles Chauvel) 
: Thank you members. We thought we should make sure the substitute Chair is of similar stature to the outgoing Chair. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Ngati Whatua and Other Peoples’ Council”.
Tisch Lindsay: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3430] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: If the member has  
Parliamentary Practice in New Zealand 
 it is on page 378: “No amendment may be proposed that is the same in substance as an amendment that is agreed or defeated in the committee …” and that is the reason I have ruled those out. 
The next amendment is ruled out as well as not being serious. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon George Hawkins to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to omit “Auckland Council” wherever it occurs and substitute “Ngati Whatua and Associates Council”.
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3430] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is just a question; I am not challenging you. You made reference to documentation. I wonder if you could just advise us exactly where that is.
Sio Su'a William: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
Sio Su'a William: Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:654;Page:3430] 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Mangere) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am reluctant to raise a point of order but you say that the amendment has the same effect whereas this is an amendment with reference to the name— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The member is challenging my ruling. He cannot do that because I have made a ruling. I have given an explanation for it and we will move on.