English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:629;Page:1145] 
8.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister for Tertiary Education 
: Did Te Wananga o Aotearoa receive unqualified audit reports in each of the years 1999 through to 2003 and did the Government believe those reports were a reliable measure of Te Wananga o Aotearoa financial systems? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) 
: 
 Yes; and at the time to the extent that the lack of qualification indicated there were no problems affecting the financial statements in a material manner yes. 
Hon Bill English 
: How did the Minister and officials manage to overlook a fundamental conflict of interest that went on for 2 years between the role of Deloitte’s as the auditor that signed off the accounts with an unqualified opinion and Deloitte’s role at the same time as the Government adviser on fixing the wananga’s financial processes? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It was not overlooked. There are Institute of Chartered Accountants of New Zealand ethical standards covering such situations. Under those standards two people from the same firm can perform different work for the same organisation if they follow certain rules set down by the institute. In the situation at the wananga there was considerable separation: the auditors were working out of Hamilton and the management consulting side worked out of Christchurch—a different section of the firm. 
Hon Bill English 
: If it was all fine why did the Government when it finally realised this conflict of interest tell Deloitte’s it had to pick one or the other and Deloitte’s decided to drop its $100000 consultancy and stay on as the auditors; and how can he get up in the House and describe it as if it were all OK when the Government itself forced Deloitte’s to address the conflict? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The Government took advice from the Auditor-General. There was a perception issue and therefore the wananga— 
Hon Bill English 
: He was the auditor. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: No the wananga development adviser resigned not the auditor. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister tell the House whether accountability for this real and perceived conflict of interest could be sheeted home to among others Mr Shane Jones who sat on the audit and finance committee of the wananga and who worked with Deloitte’s both as the auditor and as the consultant to the Government; and if Mr Jones was involved why is he still the chair of the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission particularly when the Prime Minister said last year that he would give up that position? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I have no responsibility for the fisheries commission. On the former matter I repeat that there are rules governing separation. It is common in large accountancy firms for more than one aspect of business to be dealt with within the same firm. That is common both here and of course internationally. On the matter that the member raises I do not think the issues he raised are at all appropriate because Mr Jones acts as one of those trying to fix up the problems of the wananga around the audit and if the member had cared to check his facts somewhat better he would have found that Mr Jones withdrew from that position when he was dissatisfied with the progress being made. 
Hon Bill English 
: In the Minister’s opinion as an experienced Minister is it satisfactory given Mr Jones’ involvement in a number of aspects of the wananga’s finances that the Auditor-General found to be unsatisfactory that the Government continues to endorse Mr Jones’ position as chair of the fisheries commission and why does it do so when the Prime Minister told this House last year that Mr Jones would be standing down? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The Minister does not have any responsibility for the fisheries commission. Would the member like to ask another supplementary question. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I asked the Minister in the light of his experience of having responsibility for Mr Jones’ being involved in the wananga’s finances to therefore give an opinion on his capacity to carry out another job. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member and it would be very interesting to hear Ministers’ and members’ opinions on everything but it does have to be connected to the matters they are responsible for. So perhaps the member would like to ask another supplementary question that connects it more directly to the Minister’s responsibilities. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister believe that it is appropriate for a member of Parliament to continue double-dipping into the public purse when his performance as a member of the wananga audit and finance committee was inadequate? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I reject the last assertion. Mr Jones is one of those who was trying to put to rights the mess being created by the National Party’s friend Rongo Wetere at the wananga—a man who was endorsing the National Party and supporting it as the National Party was supporting him before the election. Mr Jones was dissatisfied by the way in which the National Party’s Tory mates were behaving in managing the wananga. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: When considering matters to do with the wananga will the Minister take the advice of the Hon Bill English given on Radio Waatea which was very supportive of the wananga and the advice of Dr Don Brash when he was inside the wananga which was highly supportive of it or will he take the advice given on National Radio by Mr Bill English which was opposed to the wananga and the advice from Dr Don Brash given outside the wananga when he attacked it? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am getting far too old to keep up with the flip-flops within the National Party to worry too much about its members’ positions.