Seymour DavidDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Thank you Madam Chair. It'll be interesting to see the letter that the member Duncan Webb has just sought to table. But I just put to him this: the people who operate the credit unions they're the ones who bear the costs and if people in this committee want to ask themselves who to believe about what the costs are—should it be a law firm best known for setting up that member's superannuation trust in Christchurch or should it be the credit unions up and down the country who have had these costs of incorporation imposed upon them—I'd put it to the committee and to the people living at home that I'd listen to the people affected by the law not the people grandstanding on the law.Going back to this new Part 3A in the amendment that I am putting forward it takes us through the current bill and it tells us section by section how we make the changes in order that a credit union which chooses not to incorporate may be able to still operate under the law as it exists. So for example should a credit union want to—if you just let me get to the right page; as I said it's quite voluminous—an unincorporated credit union may offer credit union securities. Under the current bill that's proposed it would not be clear. A requirement for offering credit union securities would be the requirement to be incorporated. What proposed new section 146K makes clear is that a credit union that does not choose to incorporate also has that option.Or proposed new section 146N for instance: Unincorporated credit union may make loans to members". Obviously a very important aspect of being a credit union is the ability to advance credit. In order for that to happen you would require incorporation under the bill as it stands. What this amendment does is it allows credit unions that have not incorporated to continue doing that.The principle underlying this amendment should be clear and should be simple. It is that if you operate a credit union—for example if you operate First Credit Union a very significant credit union in this country; if you are the Police Credit Union another very significant credit union operating both of which have supported this particular amendment being put forward—then you will have the option of remaining unincorporated and the various sections of this proposed amendment will allow you to continue doing business as you always have without the requirement to incorporate.So that's what's on the Table and I hope members will consider it very carefully because the question when they decide whether or not to support my amendment is this: no matter how trivial they may think the costs are for forcing other people to incorporate what right do they have to force any cost if it is not necessary and if there is an alternative that will allow both sides to continue operating as they would prefer? If they think that's an obscure view I can tell you even the bureaucrats in this city agree with me. They have said that existing credit unions should not be required—Hon Ruth Dyson: Oh name them. Name one. DAVID SEYMOUR: Well it hasn't happened very often but the officials who were involved in the select committee report on this particular issue—and I wouldn't want to name a particular civil servant; you know I'm not Winston Peters—said that existing credit unions should not be required to incorporate against their will unless there are sound public policy reasons for imposing such a requirement. Well I have proposed an amendment that will allow them not to incorporate and that will allow those who wish to incorporate to do so. Everybody can be happy under this bill. The challenge is: are members prepared to do the legwork—as I have in bringing forward this Supplementary Order Paper 40—to accept that sometimes things are more complicated than they would like and to give a choice to those institutions that people have come together and formed. Thank you Madam Chair."