Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:619;Page:15153] 
6.  
LARRY BALDOCK (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Fisheries 
: Does the Government intend to follow through on its decision to introduce kahawai known as “the people’s fish” into the quota management system with commercial catch quotas set at a level that enables large-scale purse seine fishers to target entire schools of this species; if so why? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister of Fisheries) 
: 
 If the member means do I intend to go back on the decision gazetted in October 2003 to introduce kahawai into the quota management system then the answer is no. 
Larry Baldock 
: Is the Government prepared to enter into negotiation with the relevant commercial fishing companies engaged in targeting kahawai with purse seine fishing vessels in order to ensure there will be sufficient kahawai for both commercial by-catch requirements and non-commercial recreational interests; if not why not? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: The decision that has been announced has clearly not given purse seine fishers any advantage in terms of the way that catch limits are set. In fact the total allowable commercial catch has been set at a level that is significantly less than the tonnage that purse seine fishers alone are able to catch under the current permit regime. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I call Russell Fairbrother. I was advised by the Minister that the answer to this question will be a little longer than usual. 
Russell Fairbrother 
: Why is kahawai being introduced into the quota management system? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. How can you possibly know that the answer will take a terribly long time without knowing what the supplementary question is? I thought the interest of the public lay in our having some sort of debate in this House that actually meant something and wherein people responded as a result of information they might have previously heard. For you to know that the answer will be long means that—well I cannot use the word but there is an inference. If you were to warn us as you did that the answer to this question would be somewhat longer surely that suggests some sort of prior knowledge. I want to say in the interests of defending you that that must be a mistake or that there is some other explanation or that you are clairvoyant. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I had no knowledge of the question itself but the Minister rang me and said he was likely to be asked a question that required a longer answer than usual—and I like to advise the House of that. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: If kahawai is not introduced into the quota management system on 1 October 2004 it will not be managed in order to ensure sustainability. The fisheries permit moratorium will expire on that date and if kahawai were not in the quota management system any commercial fishers would be able to target kahawai by any method. There would be no commercial catch limit and recreational fishers would not have defined shares in the fishery. It is that lack of limits and control that led to the decision to introduce kahawai into the world-leading quota management system to ensure that New Zealanders can catch that species in the future. 
Phil Heatley 
: Why is the Minister favouring such commercial fishing companies at the significant expense of recreational fishers when his own election policy says that Labour recognises the value of recreational fishing to New Zealand’s tourism industry—that a kahawai caught by an overseas visitor and cooked or smoked by the host might be worth 10 times more to the economy than one caught commercially? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am delighted that the questioner has such good knowledge of Labour’s policy. I can confirm that recognition of the importance of kahawai—the so-called “people’s fish”—is what has led to the setting of the combined recreational and customary allowable catch at 1½ times the total allowable commercial catch. Indeed in kahawai area 1 the area from North Cape to East Cape—with which Mr Heatley I hope is very familiar—where there is the greatest concentration of recreational fishing the combined customary and recreational allowable catch is set at twice the allowable commercial catch. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is the Minister aware that Mr Heatley told the recreational fishing conference at Onerahi a couple of months ago that National supported kahawai going into the quota management system; and is he aware that United Future made no reference to this matter in its 2002 policy or— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: So far the member has not addressed any question for which the Minister— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am getting to it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: —please be seated—has responsibility. Would he come to that point now. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is he aware that United Future made no reference to this matter in its 2002 policy and that this matter is absent from the Government’s coalition arrangement with United Future; what confusion has he been left in with regard to the varying positions of those two parties—or are they just the bunch of “lay-down Sallies” that we know they are? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. The only point the Minister can answer is in relation to the coalition agreement. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am not aware of the statement that was attributed to Mr Heatley but I am not surprised by anything he or the National Party say on this matter. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Does the Minister agree that kahawai has greater value to New Zealanders as a recreational species rather than a commercial species and should therefore be managed as such; if so what mechanisms are available under the Fisheries Act 1996 to provide quota for unavoidable commercial by-catch but not for purse seine fishers targeting kahawai? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am confident that the quota management system appropriately balances conflicting expectations and I am of the view that voluntary agreements about the inshore kahawai fishery such as those that exist in the Hawke’s Bay and elsewhere are highly desirable. Further I am certainly very willing to investigate other management tools and the importance I put on kahawai as a recreational resource is clear in the quota settings that I detailed earlier. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the Minister understand that if he set the recreational limit at 10000 tonnes it would make no difference to the recreational fisherman if he is unable to find any kahawai because the purse-seiners have already gone out and scooped up their allocation before the recreational fisher has had a chance to catch his? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: In making decisions on catch limits I have to take into account the uncertainty and lack of data available on the status of the kahawai stocks. As such my decisions are cautious and conservative. Should evidence become available suggesting that an even more cautious approach is necessary I am certainly willing to reduce the catch limits in due course and to implement other management tools to ensure sustainability. 
Larry Baldock 
: Did the Minister seek advice from officials on how the recreational catch would be restrained by 15 percent—as per their advice—or did he already understand that to actually achieve a 15 percent reduction in the recreational catch would involve reducing bag limits on kahawai from the current 20 to approximately four given that the majority of recreational fishers have been unable to find more than two or three for some time? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am not sure there will be any need to constrain bag limits but let me stress to the member that the extensive and vigorous statutory consultation process leading to the introduction of kahawai into the quota management system began in November 2001. At that time all submissions supported the introduction of kahawai into the quota management system and that led to the gazetting in October 2003 of the decision I referred to. Consultation on catch limits was lengthy and participation vigorous. Unfortunately Mr Baldock’s Supplementary Order Paper on the bill currently before the House overturns the statutory process and cuts across the principle of natural justice which is served through such extensive consultation. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister confirm to this House that he had any negotiations with recreational fishing interests after the submission process had been completed and he had received advice from ministry officials; or is it true that he had no contact with those interests at all regardless of the fact that they represent 300000 to 400000 New Zealanders? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I think it is important to stress that the statutory consultation process is just that with initial position papers and final position papers. It would be most inappropriate to have discussions with individual parties outside that process. But I can assure the questioner that certainly in the wider public context such as at the annual general meeting of the recreational fishers those matters were raised. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table the record of the recreational fishing conference at Onerahi a few weeks ago at which Mr Heatley promised that if he were the Minister he would put—that it was National Party policy to put—kahawai in the quota management system. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. 
Document not tabled. 
Phil Heatley 
: I seek leave to table the Labour Party recreational fishing policy stating that kahawai is worth 10 times more as a recreational fish than it is worth commercially. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.