Volume 681 Week 14 - Wednesday 20 June 2012 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Volume 681 Week 14 - Wednesday 20 June 2012 
[Sitting date: 20 June 2012. Volume:681;Page:3123. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Wednesday 20 June 2012 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Questions to Ministers 
State-owned Energy Companies Shares—Loyalty Bonus Scheme 
1. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: In relation to the Government’s asset sales policy does he stand by his reported comments that he has yet to see any official advice on a so-called “bonus scheme” for people who buy shares? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes I have seen advice very generally that mentions a range of possible incentives but bonus shares have not been the subject of any specific advice to date. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does the cost of a such a loyalty scheme which could be up to $400 million appear in the Budget that his Government presented to Parliament less than a month ago or in his Government’s asset sales legislation? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: It appears in the Budget insomuch that the Budget documents showed the indicative range of returns that the Government was likely to receive for the mixed-ownership model. In terms of the numbers they are making up the member is continually demonstrating to the public of New Zealand that he knows absolutely nothing about the capital markets. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was about whether the costs of the loyalty scheme appeared in the Budget. The Prime Minister talked about the revenue in the Budget— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No order! I beg the member’s pardon but I clearly heard the Prime Minister say yes it was included in the Budget. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Is his so-called bonus or loyalty scheme not simply an expensive scam designed to keep Kiwis holding on to their shares until some time after the next election? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: No. A scam was Labour’s economic policies that we inherited. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If these asset sales and selling shares to mum and dad New Zealanders is such a wonderful idea and a great investment for them— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Tell us about Auckland! 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well what happened to the Auckland Airport— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member will just ask his question please. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I was just talking to the— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no. Order! The member will now resume his seat. Can I say to some of the National backbenchers that some interjections can be unhelpful. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If these asset sales and the investment made by mum and dad New Zealanders—or the few of them who get it—is such a good idea why on earth would they need a bonus scheme? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What we have seen around the world is that loyalty schemes have been effective in providing a reason to engage for people who might otherwise not have chosen to buy shares. But New Zealand First does not have to worry about that because as Andrew Williams told us last night if it gets half a chance it will be raising $7 billion to $10 billion— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No order! We do not need that last part. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does the Prime Minister accept that a bonus scheme in which those who buy shares are given extra shares for free will be a cost on the Crown? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: No. I think it is quite interesting that the member is now starting to talk about where the Crown might be prepared to forgo a part of the sale proceeds to ensure that New Zealanders are at the front of the queue with the maximum distribution for the right range of New Zealanders. If the Government simply wanted to maximise its return it would sell 100 percent of the assets to whomever came first like Labour did with the 15 assets it sold. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: What are the benefits of the Government selling minority shareholdings in four energy State-owned enterprises? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The benefits are very clear. Firstly it helps us to control Government debt which is a huge problem around the world. The Government will reinvest the expected proceeds of between $5 billion and $7 billion into things like modern hospitals and schools without having to borrow more from overseas lenders. Secondly there will be widespread New Zealand ownership with Kiwis at the front of the queue for shares in big New Zealand infrastructure companies. Thirdly it will help invigorate our capital markets and build stronger commercial disciplines in each of the companies involved. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Is the Prime Minister aware of the document by the Australian Taxation Office regarding the Queensland Rail bonus share issuing which states very clearly that the state will transfer loyalty bonus shares to the retail investor from its retained holding of shares; and how is transferring free shares not a cost to the Crown? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What I said earlier was that it has an impact on the maximum return that the Government has but the Government is not looking to get the maximum return possible because if it was it would sell 100 percent of the assets to a trade buyer almost certainly from overseas. That was the model set up by Labour and it did it very effectively in the late 1980s. But that is not what this Government is trying to do. It is going to have majority ownership it is going to transfer shares to New Zealanders who will be at the front of the queue and it may choose to give some retail investors in New Zealand the opportunity to have a slightly better deal than others. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Further to his comment about Labour’s sales does he accept that that occurred not this decade not last decade not the decade before that but the decade before that; that as a result of that the Hon Phil Goff I and the Hon Annette King all lost our seats; that Labour did not get back into power for 9 years; that we now understand— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! There will be no more interjections when I am on my feet. I think that was heading somewhat into a speech. I think the gist of the question got through though. I call the right honourable Prime Minister. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Mr Speaker— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I did not ask the question at all Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The Prime Minister will not answer it yet. I apologise I did call the Prime Minister but the member argues that he had not finished asking his question. But I clearly heard him at the start. I think he said at the start: “Is it correct?”—I think he said that at the start—and that is the question then he added a whole lot more to it. I think the Prime Minister can answer at least whether part of it is correct. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Yes I accept that it happened quite a long time ago. Yes I accept that Trevor Mallard was in Parliament then. All that process shows is that for Labour it is a hell of a lot easier to get rid of assets than it is Trevor Mallard. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Was the Prime Minister’s statement that Dr Russel Norman did not understand capital markets made because Dr Norman fails to grasp the shonky corrupt practices of Merrill Lynch which brought the American economy and the Western World’s economy to their very knees? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I have absolutely no responsibility as Prime Minister of New Zealand for Merrill Lynch. But all I can say is it was a bloody good company when I was there. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Has the Prime Minister briefed his backbenchers on the fact that New Zealanders like asset sales less now than they did in the 1980s and that they are likely to lose their seats and will not be back for 9 years? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: And yes they like Trevor Mallard less now than they did in the 1980s. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: What right does his Government have to give away up to $400 million of taxpayer wealth in the form of free share give-aways without parliamentary authority and has he not read the Constitution Act which states: “It shall not be lawful for the Crown except by or under an Act of Parliament … to spend any public money.”? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: For a start-off there is legislation going through Parliament that gives the National-led Government with the support of its partners the right to go through the mixed-ownership model. Secondly if it comes to giving away money maybe the member should go and talk to his caucus. All I ever hear it wanting to do is give away taxpayers’ money to other New Zealanders. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Can the Prime Minister—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I want to hear Dr Russel Norman’s question. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Can the Prime Minister point to any clauses in the Mixed Ownership Model Bill or any lines within Budget 2012 that authorise the Government to spend up to $400 million on giving away free shares in the mixed-ownership model companies? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The Government is not giving away $400 million and it is not giving away free shares of the order of magnitude that the member has claimed. We may or may not have a loyalty bonus; we will see. But the Government all the way through has said it will not be maximising its return. If we were to do that we would follow the Labour model of selling 100 percent and selling it to foreigners. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: When will he be seeking legal authority from Parliament to spend money in the form of a share give-away? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: If the member wants to go to the Budget he will see quite clearly laid out the Government’s programme the anticipated return that the Crown will get and the costs likely to be associated. That gives the Government from everything that I can see the authority. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I seek leave to table the document from the Australian Taxation Office that indicates that the state will be giving away shares as far as the Australian Taxation Office is concerned in the Queensland model. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! This is a point of order. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Economic Programme—Policies and Results 
2. 
PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: How is the Government’s economic programme helping to build sustainable growth and higher incomes? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 The Government is taking a number of measures to support sustainable growth. In particular it is continuing with a very large-scale infrastructure investment programme despite the fact that money is tight because we believe that is important for our future growth prospects. Another example is the extensive work that the Government is doing in tidying up the skills and training system to make it more effective and actually train people in real skills needed for the economy because we believe that is a substantial investment in our future growth prospects. 
Paul Goldsmith 
: What measures is the Government taking to support jobs and grow the economy? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The important thing about jobs is that they happen only when businesses have the confidence to invest a bit more money to employ another person and to pay them a better wage. The Government has worked on reducing the tax on work at the same time as raising taxes on property speculation. We have also worked hard to reduce the kinds of regulations that prevent businesses having the confidence to get started and to grow. In particular the 90-day trial period has been a very successful innovation—opposed by the Opposition but supported by everyone else in New Zealand—in enabling people on the margins of the workforce to get their foot in the door and actually get a job. 
Paul Goldsmith 
: How did the Budget last month contribute to the Government’s long-term programme to build a more competitive economy? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The Budget contributed by allocating significant resources to just those areas I have already mentioned. For instance there is a continued commitment to the infrastructure process including the $4.5 billion turn-round of KiwiRail and the $1.5 billion roll-out of broadband. In the Budget we also committed significant further investment to science and innovation because we believe that is a long-term investment that will help to grow our economy. 
Hon David Parker 
: Has the Minister seen a commentary from the ANZ today that says the economy is “moving into the danger zone” and what is it about reduced growth projections ballooning debt and a current account deficit approaching 5 percent of GDP at a time of an economic slow-down that encourages him to come into this House and claim his policies are working? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The Government has to take a view of the economy that enables it to support the economy in the shorter term. The deficit that the member referred to is in fact the Government borrowing money to support New Zealand households through difficult times. As we have said in this House many times although we are borrowing now we plan to close that gap up and reach surplus in 2 or 3 years’ time. At the same time we are acting—as I just outlined in the last set of questions—on long-term undertakings to lift the growth potential of this economy. The member like others may find that the news of the day makes him a bit more pessimistic. However we have fundamental confidence in the longer term in New Zealand’s capacity to grow. 
Hon David Parker 
: If he will not accept the ANZ’s advice that we are moving into the danger zone does he accept the BNZ’s summation of today’s announcement that the surging deficit threatens New Zealand’s interests with the current account deficit rising to a 3-year high much worse to come and they say it threatens New Zealand’s sovereign rating? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I do not think the BNZ is nearly as alarmed as it was at the 8 percent current account deficit—almost double today’s current account deficit—that we inherited from the Labour Government and it incurred that in 10 of the best years the global economy has ever seen. 
Hon David Parker 
: Is the Minister so out of touch that even after this appalling news and those dire predictions from our two largest banks he really thinks he is still sticking with a plan that is working? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well look banks and officials are going to make forecasts and some of them are going to be pessimistic and some of them are going to be optimistic. We live in very uncertain times. If the member looks at the detail of the current account figures it shows him things that are not unexpected. For instance the high dollar means that there are more New Zealanders going overseas because it is cheaper and fewer tourists coming here because it is more expensive and that our exporters have struggled a bit with an 80c-plus dollar. We are taking the kinds of actions that will take some pressure off that exchange rate in the long run and will help correct those imbalances. But if the member has any bright ideas that can have immediate impacts then we would be more than happy to look at them. 
Hon David Parker 
: I seek leave to table the ANZ research report today entitled “Moving into the danger zone”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
State-owned Energy Companies Shares—Ownership 
3. 
DAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition) 
 on behalf of  
GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does he stand by all his statements on asset sales? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 My answer to the incoming leader is yes. 
David Shearer 
: Does he stand by his response when asked to guarantee that no more than 10 to 15 percent of shares would end up in foreign hands he said: “Yes. I spent my life starting in investment banking. I know how these things work.”; and why cannot he guarantee this level of foreign ownership in the legislation? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Yes I stand by that statement. I think it is important to understand actually when Labour was looking at hocking off subsidiary companies interestingly enough Trevor Mallard made this statement: “I hope that you can although you’ve got to realise”— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I do not think in response to that question that is quite fair. 
David Shearer 
: Has he now reconsidered this level of foreign ownership that he spoke about given Treasury advice that “significant participation by foreign investors will be essential to achieve the Government’s overall objectives”? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: No because that advice was based on the sorts of issues that we were debating with the co-leader of the Greens which was that Treasury’s advice would be to maximise the price but the Government has made clear that it is going to put New Zealanders at the front of the queue. I am confident as a result of that basis that 85 to 90 percent of the shares will be owned by New Zealanders. 
David Shearer 
: Given the uncertainty in the global market has Treasury revised its sale figure; if not how bad would global markets have to get before he decided it was not a good time to sell? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Well firstly no I am not aware of any revision that it has had. Nor would it probably be in any position to do that because it would need to assess the capital markets at the time that the particular companies were being brought to the exchange. I would make the same point that I made again to Russel Norman yesterday that if you have a look at the state of the financial markets around the world in fact growth has been anaemic or very weak and in many countries in recession. That has not actually stopped very successful floats over the last 4 years. 
David Shearer 
: Has he seen any Ministry of Economic Development figures that show private power prices are on a weighted average basis 13 percent higher than State-owned enterprises; and how long will it take State-owned enterprises after he sells them to increase their prices to those levels? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Firstly we would reject that proposition. Secondly we would like to remind the Leader of the Opposition that under Labour power prices went up 72 percent; under National they have gone up 14 percent. I also refer the member to the Powerswitch website which shows a couple of things. Firstly of the 21 companies that are listed the 14 cheapest are actually privately held companies and the 15th is a council-owned company. The advice I have had is that from May 2011 to April 2012 422256 customers have changed electricity retailers which shows that under a National Government there has been a great desire to see choice and efficiency in the market. 
Budgeting Services—Funding 
4. 
Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development 
: What announcements has she recently made that will support the work of budgeting services around New Zealand? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development) 
: 
 We have announced a one-off funding boost of $589000 for community groups providing budgeting services. This grant will benefit 155 organisations currently funded by the Ministry of Social Development to deliver budgeting services recognising the great job that these services do. 
Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 
: Given there has been an increased demand for budgeting services as a result of the economic climate how has the Government supported these organisations? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: This year these budgeting service organisations will receive a total of $13 million. This could be compared with 2008 when they received only $4.3 million. This is an $8.7 million increase. 
Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 
: How have the Government’s welfare reforms under Future Focus supported people requiring additional hardship assistance? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Future Focus introduced a new hardship model which has placed greater obligations on repeat applicants for hardship assistance. Those who apply for additional hardship assistance three or more times in a 12-month period are now required to complete budgeting services. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Is this announcement enough to plug the gap for budgeting advice when there are organisations such as Mangere Budgeting Services Trust which received $100000 to meet growing demand and is now looking to lay off two staff as a consequence of this funding ending because she canned the Community Response Fund? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I am not responsible for making decisions within the Mangere Budgeting Services Trust. What I would say is that since 2008— 
Hon Members 
: You cut the funding. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: No let us be clear: since 2008 there has been an $8.7 million increase of Government money going into budgeting services. 
Export Sector—Effect of Exchange Rate 
5. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does he stand by his statement to Parliament of 8 February 2011; in particular that “The Government is building the foundations that will encourage growth in exports”? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes; and that is why for example the Government is running a tight fiscal policy to take the pressure off interest rates and the exchange rate. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister read a report from the International Monetary Fund that states: “the New Zealand dollar would need to be about 15 percent weaker than its current level.” to grow exports; if so does he agree with the New Zealand Manufacturers and Exporters Association chief executive that reducing the New Zealand dollar by this amount should be an aim for the Government Treasury and the Reserve Bank? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The member will I am sure be aware of my public comments that as a general rule the Government would like to see a more competitive exchange rate against the US dollar. Against the Australian dollar it has been pretty competitive. Secondly the Government does not believe that it can influence that through intervention if that is what the member is suggesting. History would indicate that is very unsuccessful. Thirdly over time probably the most likely way to achieve a more realistic exchange rate is one where we see an example of good monetary policy where interest rates are lower and that is why taking pressure off that is important. But I would reject the view that it is not possible for New Zealand to succeed in export markets even with a high exchange rate because if one looks at the 13 quarters that National has been in Government one sees that 12 of those have shown an annual trade surplus. The only one where we have been negative was actually the quarter to March 2009. So we have been selling more to the world than we have been buying from it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister read a submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee from Treasury deputy secretary Girol Karacaoglu which states—[ 
Interruption 
] Well you would not know who he is but that is his name— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! Please just ask the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well they are all shouting out “Who?”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. Order! 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: They are in Government these people. Anyway this is what this man said: “delivering a realistic”—[ 
Interruption 
] This cacophony of clowns should not be allowed to go on. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. Order! I invite the member to take a deep breath and start again and I ask the National Party backbenchers please not to provoke the right honourable gentleman. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: A very wise warning. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Has the Prime Minister read a submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee of Treasury deputy secretary Girol Karacaoglu which states: “delivering a realistic and stable exchange rate will yield far superior overall economic outcomes than an interest-rate-centered monetary policy implementation of the sort used by NZ and most industrialised economies—provided it is complemented by appropriate monetary and non-monetary tools.”; if so what on earth is he doing about it? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: No. And I am reliably informed that it is “Kara-goo-loo” so it is more “loo” than “goo”. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: A bit like you—I get it! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: So how many more freezing works processing plants and manufacturers will have to be laid off and to be foreclosed upon before his Government does something to address the high New Zealand dollar? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: As I said one of the reasons why the exchange rate has been appreciating is the very weak US dollar. It is not unique to New Zealand. If you go and have a look at Australia you will see the position where the exchange rate is very high. If you go and have a look at Brazil that situation is the same. If you have a look at Switzerland that position is the same. If you go and have a look at South Africa that position is the same. So what the Government can do is control the things that are within its reach and they are labour market reform making sure the planning reform takes place making sure that we are building infrastructure making sure that we are lifting education standards—all of those things that the member is generally opposed to. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked him a question about the rising dollar and he sent us on a trip around the world and then talked about everything else but the issue at hand. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The Prime Minister’s answer was in my humble view perfectly reasonable. He emphasised that in fact the situation is one of not so much a high New Zealand dollar as a low US dollar and explained why that is the case because he referred to other currencies that are also quite high against the US dollar and pointed out that New Zealand’s ability to make much difference to the US dollar is somewhat limited and the Government is focused on what it can have influence over. I think that was a perfectly reasonable answer to the question. 
Question No. 6 to Minister 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I seek leave to have this question held over until the actual Minister of Energy and Resources Phil Heatley is present to answer it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? [ 
Interruption 
] Order! Any member is entitled to seek leave. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: He’s not entitled to talk about someone’s absence. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member should not be interjecting while I am dealing with a point of order. It is not uncommon for members to seek leave for questions to be held over when a Minister is not present. I accept the point the Leader of the House makes that we do not normally refer to the absence of members but it is not uncommon for members to seek leave to have a questioned deferred for that reason. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is objection. 
Power Prices—Comparison of State-owned Energy Companies with Private Companies 
6. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Energy and Resources 
: Does he agree with Molly Melhuish’s calculation that the amount charged by SOEs for electricity for an average consumer is $265 per annum less than is charged by non-SOE retailers and if not what was the weighted average of the annual total retail price charged by SOEs and their subsidiaries to a residential consumer using 8000 kilowatt hours of electricity compared with the weighted average of the price charged by non-SOE suppliers according to the most recent data? 
Hon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health) 
 on behalf of the Minister of Energy and Resources: No. As I am advised a number of errors were included. For example the calculations assumed Mercury Energy has 19188 customers when in fact it has 364600 customers. This is a surprising 18-fold underestimation and this makes a material difference to the weighted result. I have today received two pieces of advice from the Ministry of Economic Development. Results can vary because of the assumptions used such as payment method payment time and location and whether or not you count for example the significant rebate paid to TrustPower customers in the Tauranga region. So members should accept the information with that in mind remembering that no one gets this weighted average price; it is competition in your town or suburb that matters the most. Using the assumptions made by Mrs Melhuish and correcting the errors the latest available data I am advised has the two figures as $2113.60 and $2332.00. However I have been advised that with a more comprehensive set of assumptions including taking into account the full range of payment method and payment time discounts—and frankly in the real world that is what you do—officials advised a different result. Those figures are $2113.60 and $2101.60. The private electricity companies are cheaper by $12 a year. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I apologise to the member. I must be able to hear the supplementary question. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does the Ministry of Economic Development quarterly survey of electricity prices for a customer using 8000 kilowatts a year show— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Hours. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: —kilowatt-hours a year; thank you Gerry—that averaged across all the State-owned enterprises across all private companies across all regions all seasons all lake levels and all types of generation State-owned enterprises charge on average less than private energy companies? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: I have just answered that question. Depending on the assumptions that you use you get a different result. What I would direct the member to do is look at the latest Powerswitch website because as I said it is price competition in your town in your street and in your road that matters. What we are aware of is that in 14 of the 21 regions listed on the Consumer Institute’s Powerswitch website the cheapest electricity company is privately owned one of them is council owned and the other six are State-owned enterprises. The important thing here is not the ownership of the companies; it is the level of competition in your community and 425000 New Zealanders have switched power companies in recent times. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does he stand by his statement to the House yesterday that he is aware of the Ministry of Economic Development website: “I am aware of the prices on that website” and “private companies are currently the cheapest in Auckland Central”? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: I am sure the Minister would stand by whatever he says in the House and I would certainly agree with him. If you do look at the Consumer Powerswitch website the cheapest companies we have been advised in central Auckland and Manukau Hamilton Christchurch and Dunedin are private companies. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does the Ministry of Economic Development website say that the lowest price charged in the Vector central Auckland area is offered by Genesis’s subsidiary Energy Online and that the lowest price charged in the Waitemata area is offered by Meridian Energy? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: That could very well be the case when that information was put on the ministry’s website and I think it is based on May. Looking at that information as I did earlier today those rankings change all the time and what prices are being offered. If members look at the latest Consumer Powerswitch website—which is quite easy to understand; it has charts of what the offered prices are—that will demonstrate to you that of the 21 power regions identified in 14 the cheapest company is private. But I must remind the member that it is not the ownership of the company that matters; it is the level of competition to drive down prices. That is why over 420000 New Zealanders have switched their suppliers. If they had had the ability to switch when Labour put up the power prices by 72 percent over 9 years I think we would have seen millions switching. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table data from the Ministry of Economic Development— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is this off the website? 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: No this is data from the domestic electricity prices— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise to the member. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: It is dated 15 May 2012 and shows that the lowest prices in central Auckland are charged by Genesis’ subsidiary Energy Online and Meridian Energy. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table this document that I am told is not off the website. Leave is sought to table it. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Kia ora tatou katoa. What work has been done following the report into the death of Mrs Folole Muliaga to address the issue of security of supply to people on very low incomes; and will he agree to consider the relevance of the UK experience where there have long been subsidies and assistance to avoid people falling in the fuel poverty trap? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: Yes I am aware of the very tragic circumstances around Mrs Muliaga who was a customer of Mercury Energy which is owned by Mighty River Power—very sad circumstances that led to a new protocol being put across the electricity sector both public and private particularly in dealing with those customers in vulnerable positions and particularly around their health. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: When he declined to answer yesterday’s question about the average price charged by private providers and the average price charged by State-owned enterprises had his officials provided him with draft average figures or did he even ask for those average figures? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: As I am answering on behalf of the Minister in the House I am unable to give an answer to that question. What I would say is that it is quite clear in the work that I have done this morning that there are a lot of assumptions that need to be made behind these various modellings. What has become very very clear to me in looking at all this evidence is that it is not the ownership that matters it is the level of local competition. Four hundred and twenty-five thousand New Zealanders have switched power companies as a result of that website and of the greater competition that has been brought in. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect Mr Speaker you have been a former Minister and you will be aware of the basic briefing processes. One would have assumed that— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member asked his question and the Minister said he did not have that information to answer that question. As Speaker I cannot second-guess an answer like that. That is a perfectly proper answer to a question and if the member happens to disagree with it he can ask further questions about it but I cannot enter into a dispute about whether the answer is right or wrong. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek your advice. Given that fair point that you make one wonders why those members denied leave for that question to be put. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member cannot dispute this kind of thing by way of a point of order. It is absolutely any member’s right in the House to deny leave for any course of action where leave is sought. 
Benefit Levels—Health Concerns and Effect of Power Prices 
7. 
JAN LOGIE (Green) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development 
: Will she consider reviewing benefit levels in light of recent University of Otago research that shows that the 40 percent increase in real power prices since 2002 is now a health issue? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development) 
: 
 No. However we do review benefit levels every year. In fact this Government legislated for CPI adjustments and in the period the member refers to benefit rates have increased by 30 percent. 
Jan Logie 
: Will the Minister accept that if power rent and basic healthy food alone now cost more than many benefits and the only option most people have is to get hardship grants which force many of them into debt budgeting advice is an inadequate response and that really she needs to review the benefit funding formulas? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: In general actually rent power and food do not exceed the benefit particularly when you take into consideration accommodation supplements and add-ons that people can get depending on their circumstances. I am quite proud that we have not just held benefit levels where they are in some of the toughest economic situations but we have actually CPI-legislated for them to be increased. There is hardship assistance as the member has identified and in many cases that is not repayable. It is a grant not a loan. 
Jan Logie 
: I seek leave of the House to table the Regional Public Health 2011 report  
Food Costs for Families 
 which demonstrates the amount of income being spent on rent and food. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Jan Logie 
: I seek leave of the House to table a Ministry of Social Development report from 2008 entitled  
Hardship Assistance Available as Lump Sums 
 which demonstrates that over half of the hardship grants are recoverable. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Jan Logie 
: Will the Minister accept that our high rates of rheumatic fever skin conditions and asthma are connected to the poverty created by insufficient benefit payments which do not enable families to provide the very basics of food warmth and shelter for themselves and their children? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: No I will not. But what I would say is that we do take into consideration how incredibly important that is. In fact the Minister of Health has announced new initiatives and increases in funding going into work with rheumatic fever. Where I also think the member could make a point is that in partnership with this Government the Green Party— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! That is not necessary. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I was going to be positive. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member may wish to make a speech but this is question time. 
Jan Logie 
: I seek leave of the House to table the National Heart Foundation’s  
New Zealand Guidelines for Rheumatic Fever 
 which establishes the link between poverty and rheumatic fever. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Jan Logie 
: Will the Minister as the Green Party has recommended make Working for Families available to families in receipt of an income-tested benefit to help protect the health of these families as their parents look for work? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: No but what we will do is celebrate the 189000 homes that have been insulated through the Warm Up New Zealand initiative in conjunction with the Green Party. 
Veterans—Assistance to Attend Commemorations 
8. 
KATRINA SHANKS (National) 
 to the  
Minister of Veterans’ Affairs 
: What is the Government doing to meet its commitment to allow fit and able New Zealand World War II veterans to attend key 70th Anniversary commemorations overseas? 
Hon NATHAN GUY (Minister of Veterans’ Affairs) 
: 
 The Government has an obligation to do what it can to allow New Zealand veterans to attend significant commemorations of their service while they are still able to do so. Thirty-two veterans who served in the Royal New Zealand Air Force with Bomber Command are scheduled to depart tomorrow to attend the dedication and unveiling of the Bomber Command memorial in London. The veterans will travel to London by the Royal New Zealand Air Force 757 with the cost being funded by Veterans Affairs New Zealand. Sending all fit and able New Zealand veterans to the memorial dedication is an appropriate way to commemorate the 1851 New Zealand servicemen who lost their lives serving with the Bomber Command and acknowledge the service of the 6000 New Zealanders who fought for the command. For those unable to attend the London event a ceremony will be held in New Zealand soon to acknowledge their service. 
Katrina Shanks 
: What other significant overseas 70th anniversary commemorations will New Zealand World War II veterans be able to attend? 
Hon NATHAN GUY 
: In addition to the Bomber Command memorial dedication in London next week upcoming 70th anniversary commemorations include the Battle of El Alamein in October 2012 for those who served in North Africa New Caledonia in April 2013 for those who served in the Pacific and the Battle of Monte Cassino in May 2014 for those who served in Italy. Local events for veterans will also be held for those unable to travel overseas. 
Government Financial Position—Net International Liabilities 
9. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What are the Treasury projections for New Zealand’s net international liabilities in 2016 as a percentage of GDP and in dollars and what is the increase in dollars from the end of the year ended 30 June 2011? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 New Zealand’s net international investment position has been a longstanding vulnerability for New Zealand. It has improved from the forecasts in 2009 that it would reach around 100 percent of GDP to stand at 70.9 percent of GDP at 31 March 2012—still high by world standards. Looking ahead Treasury forecasts that our position will reach 80.8 percent of GDP by 31 March 2016 just below the level it was in 2009. That amounts to a $204.2 billion liability and is an increase of $67 billion from 30 June 2011. 
Hon David Parker 
: Given that Treasury’s projections show New Zealand’s net international liabilities growing—according to your figures—by $67 billion does he agree with the ANZ commentary today that “our external debt levels remain high and the current account deficit is moving back towards the 5 percent plus danger zone.”? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I certainly agree that our net international liabilities remain high. The primary driver of those has been high household debt—that is New Zealanders paying high prices for houses and borrowing most of the money offshore ultimately to pay for those houses. That problem has built up over 15 years and it is going to take quite a lengthy period where New Zealand earns more— 
Dr David Clark 
: And a change of Government. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: —than it spends in order to reduce that liability. Actually changing the Government will certainly make it worse because it is still lower than it was in 2009 when we inherited a very bad external liability problem generated by Labour in the best decade the globe had seen in a long time. 
Hon David Parker 
: Given that the BNZ’s summation of this is that the surging deficit threatens New Zealand’s credit rating and given that it forecasts that the current account deficit is going to rise to 8.3 percent of GDP does the Minister have any other plans other than those that he has already implemented to curb this problem? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: We are implementing a pretty comprehensive plan to influence the balance in the New Zealand economy— 
Hon David Parker 
: No to universal KiwiSaver. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: —and influence the decisions made by lots of New Zealanders. 
Hon David Parker 
: No to tax reforms. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The member mentions tax reform and savings. Back in 2010 we put in place a comprehensive tax package that reduced the tax on savings and work and increased the tax on property and consumption. In respect of savings the KiwiSaver contributions will rise on 1 April next year. The good news is that New Zealanders are now saving a much greater proportion of their income than they ever did under the previous Government. In fact under the previous Labour Government New Zealand had the worst savings rates it has ever had at a time when the economy was meant to be as good as it had ever been. 
Louise Upston 
: How does New Zealand’s current net international liabilities position compare with that of recent years? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: First of all we need to acknowledge that New Zealand’s net international liabilities remain high by world standards. They are the product of particularly around 10 years of overconsumption and excessive borrowing to buy houses. Statistics New Zealand announced today that our net international liabilities were 70.9 percent of GDP at 31 March 2012. During the 2000s these liabilities increased significantly from around 64 percent of GDP in 2001 up to 80 percent by the end of 2008. There is certainly much more work to do. We are making some progress and I would have to say that I am slightly more optimistic than the forecasts that the member is referring to. 
Gambling—Unlicensed Gaming-machine Venues 
10. 
HONE HARAWIRA (Leader—Mana) 
 to the  
Minister of Internal Affairs 
: What is the Government doing about pokie venues operating without a licence in poor communities like Otara Porirua and Flaxmere? 
Hon CHRIS TREMAIN (Minister of Internal Affairs) 
: 
 The Department of Internal Affairs welcomes information from the public about any class 4 gaming-machine venue operating without a licence from any community including Otara Porirua and Flaxmere. Any person operating a class 4 venue without a licence can be prosecuted for illegal gambling. 
Hone Harawira 
: Why is the Minister allowing the illegal pokie venue at Galaxy 120 East Tamaki Road in Otara to continue to operate 18 pokie machines even though his department has cancelled its licence; and does letting it continue to operate illegally and without a licence while the decision is being appealed strike him as being fair to the residents of Otara who have already been ripped off to the tune of half a million dollars by this illegal pokie venue since October last year? 
Hon CHRIS TREMAIN 
: My department and I must operate within the law. That is the first point. In the case the member is referring to I am advised that the venue has not been allowed to retain its licence. The licence has in fact been cancelled by the Department of Internal Affairs. However the venue has appealed the decision to the Gambling Commission and while it is under appeal the department is unable to take further action and the licence continues. That is made quite clear in sections 77 and 78 of the Gambling Act 2003 and I recommend that the member consult that Act. The member may believe that I should ignore the law but that is not my intention. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister has recited the facts I think very well but the question did not go to the facts. It went to his opinion about the fairness of that situation. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think that in answering the Minister pointed out that the fundamental thing he has to consider is the law. He cannot have a view that is contrary to the law. I think that was not an unreasonable answer. 
Hone Harawira 
: What steps does the Minister suggest the people of Otara take to protect themselves against illegal pokie venues given that his department not only failed to monitor this venue’s establishment but actually allowed it to continue operating after the licence had been cancelled? 
Hon CHRIS TREMAIN 
: I recommend that the residents of Otara follow the law unlike the suggestion that the member across the House is suggesting. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Does the Minister agree that legislative change such as the Maori Party’s Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill is the most effective way to cut down problem gambling and tackle addiction or are there other solutions that he has in mind that he would wish to share with the House? 
Hon CHRIS TREMAIN 
: I appreciate what the member is trying to achieve with his bill. The bill is still being considered by the Commerce Committee and the Government is paying close attention to the submissions which are still being made. I believe the final date for submissions is this Friday. The Government is yet to make a decision about whether we will support the bill further. In any case I intend to continue working in partnership with the Maori Party on issues relating to class 4 gambling and pokie machines. 
Roading Manawatu—Reopening of Manawatu Gorge Road 
11. 
IAN McKELVIE (National—Rangitikei) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: What updates has he received on the state of repairs of the Manawatu Gorge? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 I am pleased to advise the House that work on the repair of the Manawatu Gorge is progressing well. The road is now open and the residents who are using it have welcomed that decision. Work has been at full pace to replace the bridges that were lost in the slip and I would like to take this opportunity to thank the contractors and all those working for them who have worked so very hard over the last few months to make this happen. 
Ian McKelvie 
: What further work is being done to improve roading infrastructure around the Manawatu Gorge? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: The Government is committed to providing roading infrastructure around the Manawatu Gorge. The New Zealand Transport Agency has spent around $4.6 million on upgrading the alternative routes and making them safer and better able to deal with the increased loads and levels of traffic. A further $4.5 million is proposed for a safer more resilient alternative available to motorists long term in that region. 
Iain Lees-Galloway 
: Can the Minister confirm that heavy vehicles are still diverted through Ashhurst and that his decision to rely on the saddle road as he pointed out in his last answer every time the Manawatu Gorge road closes means that Ashhurst residents will have to contend with trucks thundering past their school their houses and their sports grounds making life miserable and endangering their kids’ lives? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I note that the member had a lot to say about this without ever having gone up to see the gorge in the first place. What I would say is this: the gorge is being repaired and that will allow traffic to go through the gorge in a better fashion and it is only prudent to make sure that there are alternative routes. It is a dangerous and vulnerable road. 
Recession—Community Response Fund 
12. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development 
: Does she stand by her statement with regard to the Community Response Fund that “We listened to concerns that the fund was due to finish. The effects of the recession were still being felt so we’re putting more funding in for 2011/12.”? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development) 
: 
 Yes and that is why for 2011-12 under Budget 2011 we invested funding for a further three rounds—631 grants totalling over $23.9 million. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Is she aware that for the final round of the Community Response Fund there were almost 500 applications the second highest of all nine rounds and almost 200 more than the first; if so what evidence has she received to indicate that the effects of the recession and the need for the Community Response Fund no longer exist? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Yes I am aware of the number of applications that were made for the final round and I think that it was because people knew that it was the final round. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Does she believe that the need caused by the recession when she brought the Community Response Fund into place still exists? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I think that things have improved. I think that I have been incredibly clear with the community organisations about that fund. We always said that it was time-limited and that it was established by the Government in recognition of the additional pressures. I think the fund could have gone on for ever. As a consequence we said that it was time-limited and we are now progressing with the next stage of our work working with NGOs and contracting. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Does she acknowledge that the Community Response Fund was not her coming to the rescue of community organisations in a recession with a discretionary pot of money but a bridge to deal with the fact that she had canned Labour’s Pathways to Partnership? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I think if we look at the more than 2700 applications for the Community Response Fund and if we acknowledge that nearly $79 million was paid out to those organisations we see that it has been very successful. It has covered a gap. However we have been incredibly clear and transparent that it is a time-limited fund to get people through the worst of it. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: What does she intend to do to address the gap faced by hundreds of groups like Women’s Refuge which after spending a year working with the Ministry of Social Development on a resolution over future funding received notice that contracts would be arbitrarily rolled over leaving 16 refuges without any Community Response Fund or Family-Centred Services Fund funding? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: It is not me who has responsibility for funding for the Women’s Refuge as the member should know by now; it is my Associate Minister Turia. What I will say though— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think the Minister is trying to divert responsibility. She as the primary Minister gives the delegations and actually retains the overall responsibility. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is not up to us to dispute with Ministers who is responsible for certain matters. I have to take the Minister’s word on who is responsible. [ 
Interruption 
] Order! The Minister was still going to answer the question I think. She just pointed out that she was not primarily responsible for that aspect but I did not think she was going to avoid answering the question as a consequence. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It was very clear from this end of the House that the Hon Tariana Turia takes the same view that it is a joke that this Minister is passing it back to her. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! That is definitely not a point of order and that is perfectly clear from this end of the House. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I shall continue. As the member would have seen in the estimates we are in quite a major transform of how we contract with NGOs. I am investing in services for outcomes. There are going to be more details on that in the upcoming weeks. In the Budget the member would have seen the Capability Investment Resource which is a fund of about $31.6 million that is going to be going to those organisations. It is under the responsibility of the deputy chief executive for family and community services. 
Question No. 6 to Minister 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I seek leave to correct a description of a tabled document. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: The Ministry of Economic Development document that I sought leave to table in question No. 6 is authoritative and authentic but it was emailed to me as a discrete PDF individual document. However I am now advised that its originating source was indeed the ministry’s website. I feel I am duty-bound to correct that. It is authoritative and it is accurate. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for correcting that because I did ask the member directly whether it was from the website and the member said it was not. I appreciate that being corrected. I might just check—did the House grant leave for that document to be tabled? It did. If the House granted leave for it to be tabled that is fine. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Well on the basis that it wasn’t on the web. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No order! The House granted leave for it to be tabled. I do not think it is the end of the world. The member has corrected an error that he made in describing the document. All I would ask members is to be careful in the future when they describe documents to make sure that the description is correct. 
Points of Order 
Leave for Introduction—Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Amending Primary Function of Bank) Amendment Bill 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. To help the beleaguered desperate exporters of this country I seek leave— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: I am seeking leave. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! No no. When members seek leave to do anything they do not have a little speech about anything prior to it. I am happy to let the member to seek leave for what he wishes to seek leave for but he does not preface his seeking leave with a little speech. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: I seek leave to have my bill on the Reserve Bank drawn from the ballot and presented to Parliament right now. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Urgent Debates Declined 
Accident Compensation Corporation—Resignation of Board Member 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Colleagues I have received a letter from Andrew Little seeking to debate under Standing Order 386 the departure of Murray Hilder from the ACC board. The resignation involves ministerial responsibility. An urgent debate on resignations from the ACC board was held just last week. For there now to be a case of recent occurrence there must be either a new situation of importance or a new development in an existing situation of sufficient importance to warrant in this instance a further debate being held. News media allegations about the circumstances of the new resignation cannot constitute a case of recent occurrence. The application is therefore declined. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can I take from your ruling that these resignations are an ongoing matter? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The House will come to order. That is not a point of order. I have ruled on the letter seeking an urgent debate and that is the end of the matter. 
General Debate 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister) 
: 
 I move  
That the House take note of miscellaneous business 
. We are still waiting this week for the Labour Party to commit to buying back the shares of the 49 percent of the energy companies that the Government is planning to sell mainly to New Zealanders. New Zealand First has made that undertaking. New Zealand First has shown that the Labour Party has persuaded New Zealand First that its arguments are so strong New Zealand First should go and buy them back if it has a role in a future Government. But the Labour Party has not been able to persuade itself. Labour members have been in the Chamber arguing hour after hour day after day week after week that these proposed share offers are fiscally irresponsible economic nonsense and a sell-out to foreigners but they are not so fiscally irresponsible that they are going to buy them back. They are not such a sell-out to foreigners that they are going to buy them back. They are not such an economic nonsense that they are going to buy them back. 
The Labour Party has one more parliamentary day tomorrow for its leader to set some direction and show that the Labour Party really believes the arguments that it is making in the House. So far it has not happened. I thought it would happen; its members persuaded me that they really cared about this. It was the centre of their election campaign. Surely it is not the case that the Labour Party all through the 2011 election campaigned against asset sales and never intended to buy them back. Surely that is not the case! Surely it did not mislead the New Zealand public about how desperate it is to save New Zealand and New Zealanders from the evils of the sale of these shares. Well a seed of doubt is growing in my heart. A seed of doubt is growing in my heart that Labour will not promise to buy them back. 
Let us just take Labour members through the accounting that they would be signing up to. Let us say that they are the Government and they say that the sale of those shares is terrible. This is what they have to do. The first thing is they have to go to the international money markets and borrow $5 billion to $7 billion. They will borrow not just from their grandmother but off big corporate foreign multinationals. That is the first thing. Then they have to take those billions and pay them out in lump sums to shareholders who they told this House are a small elite. That will be the first action of a Labour Government—borrow off foreign multinationals and pay it out in lump sums to a small elite to buy their shares off them. 
 Then the next thing that happens these companies stop paying dividends into the Superannuation Fund. They stop paying dividends to KiwiSavers—2 million of them—and they stop paying dividends to iwi and to tens of thousands of New Zealand families who had the shares and were getting dividends and those dividends were flowing to them. Guess where that money goes? Labour then has to start paying interest to big corporate foreign multinationals for the money that it borrowed. I can see a seed of doubt in David Cunliffe’s heart as well. How is he going to explain to the aspirational electrician in his electorate who bought those shares that he has to sell them back to the Government so that the Government can borrow $7 billion and pay interest on it to a foreign multinational instead of into the electrician’s savings account? It is no wonder Labour has not made the undertaking yet or will we be surprised by Thursday night? Let us see; there is only 27 hours to go. 
GARETH HUGHES (Green) 
: 
 Kia ora Mr Speaker. Nga mihi nui ki a koutou. Kia ora. Today in Brazil—20 years on—the Rio Earth Summit meets for its 20th anniversary. Now 20 years on I think it is important to take stock of how we are doing two decades on. When you look at the promises made 20 years ago and when you look at the promises made 10 years ago you can see that it is clear: successive New Zealand Governments have failed to protect the environment—failed to protect it for future generations. We know that emissions are up our waterways are more polluted than ever—Kiwi kids cannot swim in half of our rivers and streams—we have got species going extinct and our oceans are not protected. 
Firstly looking at climate change we know that our emissions are up. The Government promised to reduce them but instead what we see is our emissions increasing. But worse than that we are seeing this Government fork out more than $1 billion in free emissions trading scheme credits to pay for the polluters. So our emissions are going up and we are paying polluters to keep polluting. We know that the Government is blocking international climate deals. The Government has failed to develop a low-carbon development plan which it promised in 2010. 
When we look at our waterways our waterways are more polluted than ever 20 years on. The quality is declining markedly. Kiwi kids cannot swim in most of our lowland rivers streams and lakes. When you look at the waters we know that there are only 55 Maui’s dolphins left but the Minister for Primary Industries sits on his hands while this dolphin species goes extinct. 
We know that the Government is embarking on a risky deep-sea oil drilling plan opening up 40000 square kilometres of our oceans to risky deep-sea drilling. When it comes to marine protection the Government has sat on the Marine Reserves Bill which is currently with the Local Government and Environment Committee. This bill is now the second-oldest bill ever to languish in a select committee. So while the Government goes over to Rio and today Amy Adams put out a press release saying that she was signing New Zealand up to the Global Partnership for Oceans the only thing she could point to was her Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Bill. The first thing is that this bill is not a conservation bill. This bill does not deal with protection. This bill is more of an “Exclusive Economic Zone Drilling Bill”. All this bill does is rubber-stamp risky deep-sea oil drilling. 
 The Minister signed up New Zealand once again—because of course we signed up to it in 2000 with the Labour Government—to a 10 percent marine reserve target. The last time we had this target and the last time the deadline was met New Zealand had achieved having only 0.41 percent of our waters protected. So what we know is that the Government is opening up thousands of square kilometres to deep-sea drilling. It will not protect any of it. It is sitting on the legislation that could protect it. Meanwhile across the Ditch Australia has just announced the world’s largest network of marine reserves. So when we talk about catching Australia why do we not talk about catching it in marine conservation? 
It is clear when you look across all the promises that successive Governments have made that we have failed to live up to those promises. There are tens of thousands of people off to Rio as the conference begins tomorrow but there are two people who are not going. The first is the Prime Minister. Where is the Prime Minister? Why is he not going to Rio? We are sending the world the wrong signal. We are sending the world the signal that we do not care about sustainability. Of course this is a strong signal but an even stronger one is the fact that over two decades we have completely failed to protect our environment. We are missing out on a huge opportunity. Secondly from this side of the Chamber it would be interesting to ask who from Labour is going to the most important Earth Summit in 10 years. Who from Labour is going to the Earth Summit in Rio? The fact is Labour is not sending anyone. 
It is good that New Zealand is signing up to a plan to reduce that $1 trillion in global fossil fuel subsidies but really much like the oceans partnership we should start looking closer to home. This Government has got $25 million to throw at oil explorers and it has numerous tax incentives and exemptions to throw at risky oil explorers. This Government is quite comfortable with the fourth-lowest Government take of any oil producer in the world. So what we know is that from that risky deep-sea oil we are going to see hardly any jobs hardly any taxes and hardly any royalties and all the profits are going to go offshore. 
There is a better way. Last week I met with Brittany Trilford a New Zealander who has been selected to address tomorrow the world leaders who are at Rio. Brittany is going to ask the world leaders to give Kiwis a future that I can look forward to and that is what the world is asking. This Government can embrace the green economy: clean energy and smart technology. It can give Kiwi kids a future they can look forward to. 
Hon DAVID CARTER (Minister for Primary Industries) 
: 
 Following on from the contribution of my colleague the Minister of Finance Bill English when he talked about the seeds of doubt growing in those members’ hearts I want to speak about the kernel of confusion. I listened to the debate with great interest yesterday. There were contributions from senior members of the Labour Party like Mr Goff and Mr Mallard and Mr Cunliffe. And then I came across a comment or a speech by one of these Labour members. This member said in 2010: “in a capital constrained … environment”—and we have certainly got that at the moment—“[Labour] will better leverage the Crown’s balance sheet in new and innovative ways …We can unleash State Owned Enterprises to create and grow [them] with private partners and private shareholders”. That is exactly what National is proposing to do. That is what Mr Cunliffe came down and spoke in Opposition about in the Chamber and yet at his own party conference I believe he made a speech like that advocating the mixed-ownership model. 
Then I came across an even more interesting comment by a senior Labour Minister back in 2006 on the  
Agenda 
 programme. This Minister said: “Something that we need to do and something that I am quite keen on is that as the SOEs develop new businesses especially those that are done in partnership with people in the private sector we could well have floats of the subsidiaries so that they could be listed on the stock exchange. That would help give depth to our capital markets and get some transparency around these companies. I think that would help.” Well amazingly that was said by the Hon Trevor Mallard—the very member who spent hours in the Chamber yesterday arguing against National’s mixed-ownership model when in 2006 Mr Mallard said it was a good idea. So Mr Mallard speaks out of both sides of his mouth saying two different things and it is no wonder we have in the House today an absolute kernel of confusion. 
The other comment that came through in the debate yesterday is that National needs a mandate. Well I remind the Labour members that at the last election there were effectively two issues. One was the idea of the Labour Party to impose a capital gains tax. The other issue that was voted on by people was National’s absolute honesty to go to the electorate and say that if you vote National at the next election—the last election—then we will deliver a mixed-ownership model. And 47.5 percent of those who voted voted National Mr Little. That is as close to a mandate you can ever get using a general election to deliver a mandate so for Mr Little Clayton Cosgrove and Kris Faafoi to argue that we are proceeding without a mandate is absolute rubbish. 
I do not understand why the Greens are running a petition and—surprise surprise—not only are they wasting their time with that petition but they are actually wasting taxpayers’ money. We learnt yesterday that they have got paid officials—$75000 of taxpayers’ money—out there at places like the Fieldays collecting signatures. The Green Party talks about all of its support base—its wide support base so loyal to the cause. If the support base is so loyal to the cause why does the party have to pay its people to stand outside the supermarkets collecting signatures for a referendum which Mr Hague will be meaningless—absolutely meaningless? 
The final point I want to make is about why National is proposing the mixed-ownership model. It is because we have a lot of things that as a Government we need to spend capital on. We need to spend money in Christchurch helping the rebuild; in the Port Hills electorate alone a number of schools have been completely destroyed. I want to see money invested in productivity like water infrastructure—particularly in Canterbury but not only in Canterbury in Hawke’s Bay and in Otago. To develop that infrastructure to develop those new schools we need capital— 
Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Hauraki-Waikato) 
: 
 If it is not one thing in education it is another and there is no seed of a doubt in the public’s mind that the National Government’s bungling in the education system is creating a great big mess along the way. 
First we see the bungle from the Government of introducing national standards in our schools. Sure many schools are meeting the requirements of the Ministry of Education but they do not do it because they think it is going to make a big difference to the learning outcomes of children; they do it because they have to. The teaching profession informed the Minister of Education at the time that the testing of our primary school children in reading writing and maths was a narrow measure of learning progress and had the potential to narrow the way in which New Zealand’s rich curriculum could be delivered in our schools and in our classrooms for the benefit of our children. We have since found out that there is a huge variance between schools and within schools as to how the overall teacher judgment impacts on a student’s assessment. 
Parents want to know how well their child is doing while they are at school their rate of learning and what can be done to improve their progress. National standards do not provide the type of information that will help parents as first teachers to progress the learning of their children. It does not work and will not work in the current regime. New Zealand needs well-rounded engaged resilient and creative learners confident in who they are. National just does not get it and it is proving that is the case. 
Today’s classrooms are full of children with diverse learning needs—and the Minister’s response this year? It was to cram them into larger classes. She claimed it would not make much of a difference. Well parents knew that things had got out of control that this Government did not understand what works in education and they mobilised and challenged the Government on that very issue when their children came home from school saying that they might not have a technology science art drama kapahaka music or extension teacher. Parents became really angry with the National Government—some of its supporters. I will not be surprised if they switch at the next election because they know in their heart of hearts—in their heart of hearts—that National is not committed to educating the future leaders of this country and it is showing it does not have a clue. 
Labour tabled research in this House that showed that larger class sizes for our youngest most vulnerable and disadvantaged learners did not improve achievement outcomes. We were clear that we would reverse this silly policy. Well time passed—vigorous lobbying damaging polls—and common sense prevailed and the Minister had to back down and turn round her decision on larger class sizes. That initiative was supposed to make a saving of $114 million over 4 years which was to be used for improving teacher quality. Now the Minister is scrambling around looking for funding to invest in quality teaching. Stump up with the funds Minister. Find that money because we believe that quality teaching does matter and should never have been considered a trade-off for larger class sizes. 
In fact what we should be doing is treating education as an investment portfolio. Get rid of charter school initiatives cap the amount of funding for independent schools reverse tax cuts for the top 3 percent of income earners and there you will have the resources necessary to address the ongoing needs of professional development mentoring and training supports for teachers because great teachers do make a difference but the environment of the school and the classroom matters as well. 
Hot on the heels of this bungle was another blunder. A rush of blood to the head saw the Prime Minister promote league tables. But it would depend on the shape of the reporting so that schools would not be disadvantaged we heard—whatever that means! What does it mean Prime Minister? He was not quick to clarify what the shape of the reporting of league tables will be but he should. League tables and ranking schools based on reading writing and math confirm exactly what the educational professionals thought would happen after national standards. League tables— 
Mike Sabin 
: Why shouldn’t teachers tell parents what’s happening in the schools? 
Hon NANAIA MAHUTA 
: That member asks why schools should not tell parents what is happening in their schools. Parents want to know. Many schools will tell that member that they provide plain English reporting to their parents but what is more important is the learning progression of their child not simply that the child did not achieve. 
Hon TIM GROSER (Minister of Trade) 
: 
 There are many extraordinary things about this debate over the mixed-ownership model. There is first of all the literally ridiculous claim that somehow we are proceeding without a mandate but Mr Carter has I think just demolished that argument comprehensively. Let me— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have not been in the House and I have not heard the previous contributions but it appears to me that the member is anticipating the order of the day. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! No no. There have been a number of contributions around this issue and anything can be debated in the general debate. He was not specifically dealing with any specific measures in later legislation. Members must not interrupt other members’ speeches unnecessarily. 
Hon TIM GROSER 
: The other strange aspect of this debate is the idea that somehow the members opposite us are looking at this in a hermetically sealed bubble with no comprehension about the context in which we are taking these decisions and more particularly no comprehension about the state of the international economy which is forcing some very tough choices. 
Let me try to explain this in very simple terms to the members opposite. I do want to pay respect here to the Mr Happy books because I will use very very simple language here—these are books that I brought up my children on and I am sure many other members have brought up their very young children on the same series of books. In my version of a Mr Happy book this is “Nice-to-have Land”. Let me take you back through memory lane. In 2000 we lived in “Nice-to-have Land” and these people were then in charge of “Nice-to-have Land”. They ticked off any proposal that had the right type of label on it that said the right things that looked shiny and bright and then they built up core Crown Government expenditure from $32 billion—$32 billion—to over $60 billion as they ticked off everything that was nice to have. But unfortunately this happy band of brothers and sisters did not look above them to see that there were some dark skies gathering overhead. And they started to appear as soon as 2005 hit the shores. We started to then run out of the good times and over the next 3 years New Zealand’s average growth rate was less than 1 percent per annum productivity tanked the debt-fuelled consumption boom continued but the people who ruled over “Nice-to-have Land” did not see what was happening as they enjoyed themselves ticking off every nice-to-have proposal. 
Well in 2008 the people who lived in this country said thank you very much and that they wanted some prudent economic management around this. All of this let us never forget was before the collapse of Lehman Brothers before that triggered the global financial crisis. So this country was the only country in the developed world to be in recession before the whole difficult situation unfolded around the rest of the developed world. We have replaced “Nice-to-have Land” with a much tougher measure: “Must-have Land”. Nothing that cannot pass the must-have test has got through this Government. We have not imposed austerity. When I listen to some of these charges about austerity I just think about what else is going on around the world like 700000 civil servants in the United Kingdom being given their leave. I am thinking about the huge increase in university fees in the United Kingdom to an average if I am not mistaken of £9000 which is around $22000 or $23000. Even in Sweden if I am not mistaken youth unemployment is now about 22 or 23 percent. We have unemployment in Greece of 52 percent. There are massive upsets in world capital markets. 
This is the context in which we are managing a very difficult situation facing our country. Proceeding with a mixed-ownership model is indeed an integral part of it. It is all part of a strategy of trying to do more with less trying to get better value out of public services trying to ensure that we have the funds available to fund vital capital investments like broadband improved schools and a whole series of things in the hospital and health areas otherwise we would be going on to international capital markets. Nobody knows precisely what is going to happen over the next 6 to 12 months but you would have to be a supreme optimist to believe that that is where New Zealand should be going—that New Zealand should be trying to borrow as much as it can overseas—in situations like this. So the mixed-ownership model must absolutely be set in that context and I am very proud to be supporting a Government that is doing that. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. First of all I would like to apologise for interrupting the member the Hon Tim Groser earlier. I should not have done that in a general debate. I would like to now go back to the point of order that I did make then and refer you to Standing Order 110(1) and (2) and to Speaker’s ruling 25/1. All of those are quite clear on the matter of anticipating an order of the day. It does depend on the likelihood of getting to it. It is clear that we are going to get to the Mixed Ownership Model Bill today. The member gave a speech that would have fitted well as a second or third reading speech on that bill. In fact some of the matters would have referred to the Committee stage as well. My submission is that there is no exception either in the Speaker’s ruling or in the Standing Orders for the general debate from that Standing Order. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 The honourable member is quite right and this has been raised in general debate in the recent past but might I point out that in a general debate issues of the partial float of State assets—and I have been listening very carefully on this side—have been one part of a broader discussion about choices involving the raising of taxes borrowing reducing spending and investing in future assets. To rule one part— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I do not believe I need more assistance on this. The debate that I expect to be coming up in the House this afternoon is a very particular debate on Part 2 of the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. That is a very specific debate. In the general debate referring to the wider issues of whether or not New Zealand should own State-owned energy companies or whether it makes sense to sell shareholdings in them or whether it makes sense to buy them back is referring to far more general issues. It is not pre-empting a particular debate in the Committee stage this afternoon and that is why I think it would be most unreasonable for the Speaker to rule that there cannot be that kind of general debate in the general debate. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can I ask therefore that there is some discussion with the Clerk as to putting the ruling you have just given into  
Speakers’ Rulings 
. I think it would be useful because I think it is certainly a change from Assistant Speaker Barker’s ruling. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am very happy to do that if it is of assistance to members. I just note that Standing Order 110(2) currently says that “In determining whether a discussion is out of order the Speaker has regard to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time.” I have been mindful of that. Had it been perhaps the second reading debate coming up this afternoon I think there might have been more merit in the member’s point of order. But since it is the Committee stage coming up this afternoon I think that for the general principles to be debated in the general debate is not contravening that Standing Order. But I am very happy to follow that up if that is helpful to the House. 
SUE MORONEY (Labour) 
: 
 The sight of a Government thrashing around without a plan—is it not horrendous to see time after time every day now a new thing that shows that this Government really has no direction and does not know what it is doing? Over there we had Tim Groser counting the cost of his big fat tax cut which he could give back but instead he wants to flog off the State’s assets to pay for infrastructure. Those are some of the priorities that that Government over there has got. Then we have got the prospect of seeing on a daily basis now the carnage at ACC from Judith Collins as she thrashes about in her portfolio without a plan without an idea and all the casualties that are coming out of the ACC board as a result of that. 
It all started some weeks back when the Government decided that its best idea and the only real idea it had for quality education was to increase the number of children in every single class throughout the land—and it was every single class throughout the land. The biggest impact was going to be felt in the intermediate schools and middle schools up and down the country but actually the truth is that every primary school and every secondary school were also going to feel the impact of increasing class sizes. 
What I cannot understand is that with all the official advice all of the levers of Government and everything those members opposite get in terms of information to make sound decisions why they could not see what every parent in every household up and down the country saw was plainly obvious—the fact that if you have more children in a class then that is going to be a more difficult prospect for the teacher and therefore the quality of education for every single child in that class would diminish. It is what we might call—it is not a technical term—a no-brainer and yet that lot opposite the Government did not understand that very basic concept. The Government had to wait until parents and teachers rebelled against such a ridiculous prospect: that increasing the number of children in each class and having more children per teacher was somehow going to increase the quality of education. It is absolutely a no-brainer. 
But we watched Hekia Parata thrash around and actually try to defend that policy knowing—as now the New Zealand public does know—that every single one of those members opposite including the Prime Minister actually still believes that increasing class sizes is the way to go in education. That is still their strongly held view of what was needed. The only reason they have not gone down that path is that their polls were collapsing because parents knew better than this Government. Parents do know better than this Government because it is just about using common sense. With all the official advice that it has got everything that it has got at its fingertips it still could not work out what a daft idea that was. 
It is now clearly obvious to every voter in New Zealand what party it is that stands up for quality education. It is the Labour Party. It is the Labour Party that understands as parents do what the key things are that make sure that children get a quality education. And it is absolutely clear now that Labour has education as a priority and National does not. National members cannot put that genie back in the bottle no matter how they spin this round and no matter how many U-turns they make on this issue. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle now that every parent understands that the National Party at its heart at its core does not get education. It not only does not get education but it does not value the role of education in lifting families up in the way that parents actually value education. 
The National Government is completely out of touch with the sort of value that parents place on education and that is what it got a shock about. It did not understand the value that parents put on education. It did not understand the backlash that was about to happen because education does not figure as a priority in the minds of the members of the National Government. That is plainly obvious. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle. 
Now we are witnessing the blame shifting and it is not only Judith Collins in the ACC portfolio who is doing the blame shifting. It is also Hekia Parata who said that it was all her officials’ fault that she did not get that policy right. Then John Key said that it was not his fault; it was all Hekia Parata’s fault. So between the blame shifting and the thrashing around there is clearly no plan. 
Hon PETER DUNNE (Leader—United Future) 
: 
 At the weekend a very significant report was released that will have a huge impact on the life of just about every New Zealander moving forward. I refer to the Financial Services Council’s report about future superannuation provision. There were two very chilling statistics amongst the plethora of statistics in that report that we should all focus on. Firstly 52 percent of girls born last year and 44 percent of boys can expect a life expectancy of 100 years or more. Secondly a 25-year-old in New Zealand today commencing a working career compared with a 25-year-old in Australia commencing a working career can through the combination of a State-provided pension in the form of New Zealand superannuation and KiwiSaver expect in comparison with the Australian schemes to be on average about two and a half times worse off by the time they retire. 
The question that we need to focus on is what our situation in this country is going to be with superannuation policy moving forward. The one certainty that everyone knows is that the record of politicians in this area over the last 30 years has simply been to create more uncertainty than they set out to establish in the beginning. What we have to do is put some pillars in the ground about where future superannuation policy should go and work towards achieving those. I want to set out some from my perspective this afternoon. 
This is not a debate about whether the age should be 65 or 67. That with respect is a very trivial issue. I favour retaining a core age of 65. What is important is the incentives that are created around that to enable people to plan their retirement with some certainty and some dignity. 
That is why a flexible approach to superannuation whereby the person has the choice of taking a reduced rate of superannuation if they choose to retire between 60 and 65 or an enhanced rate if they choose to defer their retirement post-65 has considerable appeal for two reasons. Firstly it will defray cost and secondly it means that the choice about when people leave the workforce is theirs not the Government’s. Effectively by establishing a superannuation entitlement age when we no longer have a retirement age the Government is simply saying: “You will retire at this point in time even though we do not have a retirement age to statutorily enforce.” 
Flexible superannuation restores the choice to the individual. For a number of groups in our population—I think of Maori I think of Pasifika and I think of manual workers who do not traditionally have long post-retirement life expectancies—the opportunity to take a reduced rate of superannuation from the age of 60 would give them some dignity in retirement and some choice that they currently do not have. But it needs to be buttressed by a couple of other factors. The first is that KiwiSaver now with around 1.8 million or 1.9 million members ought to be made a compulsory savings scheme and still paying out at the age of 65 so that those who are entering the workforce now can invest in their future with some certainty know what they will get at 65 and have the choice about a New Zealand superannuation scheme that they can take at the reduced rate of 60 or defer to 70 if they choose—but again they will have the choices. 
Now comes the next issue which is simply in the too-hard basket but which a number of actuaries and others are starting to draw attention to. Over the next few years we are going to start to see people collect their KiwiSaver payments. In these first few years it is not going to be that significant because the amount that they will collect will not be that great but the time will come when people are collecting substantial KiwiSaver payments. What we need to be putting in place now is an annuities programme to enable them to reinvest those proceeds in a way that will pay them a sustainable income through the remainder of their lives. 
The very worst thing we could tolerate is a situation where people get a large KiwiSaver payout at 65 and effectively blow it and all of the good work of their lifetime in terms of their saving and all of the good work in terms of the way we have sought to give people some comfort and some security in their retirement will be completely wasted. So in addition to a flexible approach to superannuation and in addition to a compulsory savings scheme in the form of KiwiSaver we also need to start to bring in a comprehensive policy on annuities. That is the way we will give New Zealanders certainty and security for their futures. 
Hon JO GOODHEW (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector) 
: 
 This afternoon we have heard about seeds of doubt. We have heard about kernels of confusion. I am going to talk about firm resolve and it is the firm resolve of this Government. We need to build a more competitive and productive economy based on savings and investment and to move away from the debt borrowed from foreign lenders. It seems really really strange to me that there are members in this House who still do not get that. We see on television most nights a whole new set of disasters around the world based on the economies in particular in Europe and elsewhere. When we see those disasters there is just a bit of an inkling amongst some New Zealanders that maybe we should feel quite proud of ourselves and quite insulated from that. But no New Zealand should not feel insulated from that and one way of protecting ourselves and of increasing the insulation is to protect ourselves from more debt. 
Our mixed-ownership policy is part of a wider economic programme to reduce debt to increase savings and to get our country through what has been one of the worst economic crises in 100 years. It is also very much an integral part of our 120-point post-election plan. Again I want to repeat the most important factor in there: the National Government does not want to increase debt. 
Our plan to introduce the mixed-ownership model was a fulsome one. We are not going to be accused of treachery which saw Labour dumped out of office—and we have heard Mr Mallard talk about it today—after selling too many assets. As Trevor Mallard reminded the House this afternoon MPs lost their seats and the public of New Zealand were appalled. The main reason they were appalled was that they were not consulted. That is very very different from what has happened in this case. 
Our fulsome plan involved 10 long months of campaigning on what we were going to do. We spelt it out time and time again. We said we would go and seek a mandate. What more can you do than to say that that is what you plan to do? And what better result can you get than 47.5 percent of the population saying: “Well we might be a bit uncomfortable about it but the National Party has got the right plan for New Zealand. We like it more than anyone else’s.”? Anyone who doubts that should go and look at the election day results of the other parties and see whether any of them came anywhere close. There was 10 long months of campaigning 10 long months of asking for a mandate and what did we get? We got 47.5 percent. 
Unfortunately there are still people out there in New Zealand who believe the title of “asset sales”. You will never see or hear Opposition members describing it as a mixed-ownership model because that does not suit them. You see members on that side of the House actually quite like mixed-ownership models. They introduced them. Let me give as an example the Rt Hon Winston Peters who just happened to sign the prospectus for the shares in Auckland International Airport. He is now calling mixed-ownership models “treacherous” but he seems to have quite a short-term memory given that he signed as Deputy Prime Minister that prospectus for a mixed-ownership model. 
There are other really good examples of mixed-ownership models that probably have been supported by the Opposition including the Port of Tauranga. Air New Zealand was another one. In fact it probably pays right now to again look at what we will gain by going down this track: avoiding debt. I come back to my principal point: this is about avoiding more debt. There will be a broader pool of investments for New Zealand savers; deeper capital markets; money for 21st century schools hospitals and priority infrastructure; and less exposure to debt and volatile markets—I will say it again. It is more of a successful mixed-ownership model as evidenced by the success of Air New Zealand of Auckland International Airport and of the Port of Tauranga. 
There will be—and this is a personal favourite of mine—up to $400 million as equity investment in irrigation projects. That is a very personal favourite for someone coming from Canterbury. 
ANDREW LITTLE (Labour) 
: 
 It is another week and it is another resignation at ACC—another resignation of another board member. You Mr Speaker are entitled to sit there and say: “Another week and another request from Labour for an urgent debate on ACC.” That is what happened for the third week in a row. But it is chaos in ACC. It is chaos and now the latest departure—hushed up for 5 days I might add—is Murray Hilder one of the most respected actuaries in New Zealand who is pushed aside because he has had enough of the politicking the political manipulation the shenanigans and the chicanery that has been going on in ACC for far too long. 
On 28 March I said about ACC: “It is a convoluted web of deceit promises counter-promises and under-the-table utterances.” How prescient that was with all due respect to my own modesty. I asked for answers from the Minister for ACC then. You know here is the interesting thing. I gave the present Minister the benefit of the doubt. I said that she should front up answer the questions and get on with the job of cleaning it up. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Why? 
ANDREW LITTLE 
: I gave her the benefit of the doubt because I am a generous chap. I am a generous chap. Some would say naive and others might say innocent. Well I have learnt my lesson because what has become patently obvious is not only that this Minister has no interest in cleaning it up—she wants to see the board gone—but also that this is part of a nasty ugly dirty filthy game being played out inside the National Party with ACC and its board as collateral damage. That is what is going on. 
I regarded the Minister originally as responsible but not to blame. I have changed my mind. She is responsible and she is to blame. She is not fixing the problem. She is not fixing the problem; she is making it worse. It is time for her to do the right thing. 
It was bad enough that there was a privacy breach to begin with. It was bad enough that ACC did not seem to respond effectively and it is bad enough that since the privacy breach there have been even more privacy breaches. But none of this compares to the prevarication the evasion and the dissembling that has gone on in this House with the Minister failing and refusing to front up and no wonder. It is quite clear that her conduct is not the conduct of a reasonable and responsible Minister. Her conduct is the conduct of a sociopath Ms Tolley. Maurice Williamson understands that because he has worked with too many of them for too long. He knows sociopathic conduct when he sees it. 
Here is what is going on. All we wanted was straight answers but Judith Collins needs to understand that it is not just what is said in this House that counts; it is what is said around the well-heeled well-fashioned dining tables of the middle class around New Zealand. They are not called the chattering classes for nothing I can tell you. They are chattering—they are chattering. What they are saying is that Judith Collins when she got the news of the mass privacy breach called the chief executive and the chairman of the board to her office in Auckland and asked them what was going on. She gave them a dressing down. She balled them out gave them a dressing down and said: “It’s not just a question of sorting out the privacy. I want you to go after Michelle Boag—go after Michelle Boag.” That is her plan—that is her plan. 
She told them what happened at the meeting on 1 December. Let us remember too about the meeting of 1 December where this was arranged to benefit Bronwyn Pullar. Michelle Boag was there. There were no threats no extortion. There was a polite letter from ACC the day after and nothing for 3 months—nothing for 3 months. And then suddenly on 14 March the day after news of it broke the Minister thought this was criminal conduct and she urged and pressured and pressed the chief executive and the chairman of the board to lay a complaint with the police and that is what they did. She told them to do it and then when the police came back and said: “Nothing here. Nothing going on here. Move on please.” she hung them out to dry. She knows what the story is here. If she is found out as being responsible for sending it to the police she is exposed on the leak of Michelle Boag’s email to her. That is the game that is being played and ACC is the collateral damage. ACC claimants do not get a look in and it is a disgrace. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 That was a great speech from Trevor Mallard. I want to talk about how Trevor Mallard can get up in this House and move a sanctimonious mea culpa—yes we did that and then we got kicked out. [ 
Interruption 
] If the Greens do not like what I am saying there is the door. He said: “Yes we sold it and we have learnt our lesson.” The more you yell the more I will yell. This is a fact. They do not like it. You know what happened? The complete difference between when the Labour Party sold out New Zealand’s assets and when we are selling New Zealand’s assets—[ 
Interruption 
] That is right. The complete difference is that Labour sold 100 percent of them. It did not worry about New Zealand. At least we went to the public. We went to the public and it was in neon lights. It was up there in Christmas lights for all to see on every road on every street and on every crescent. We said to the public before the election that our proposal was to sell 49 percent—not 50 percent not 100 percent but 49 percent. What happened? A million people decided that they could trust the National Government that they could rely on the National Government to manage the process through on behalf of Joe and Mary Bloggs. 
Never mind you getting up on your hind legs—sorry I apologise Mr Speaker—because New Zealand First is culpable. Mayor Williams sold off two parts of his council when he was the mayor for something like a paltry $11 million. It was not 49 percent but 100 percent. When Winston Peters was the Deputy Prime Minister and I think he might have been the Treasurer he sat at the signing of the sale of Auckland Airport—that was the Rt Hon Winston Peters. He was at the signing and he said to the Crown that that was capitalism at work or something like those words. 
Hon Member 
: Popular capitalism. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Popular capitalism. Well I wonder what we call this—great capitalism. It is forward thinking. Then Phil Goff yesterday wanted to get up and table in the House a list of the assets that Labour sold and it was blank. Well I tell you what I have got the list here. I have got the list here and it is $9.5 billion worth. 
Hon Member 
: Name and shame. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Name and shame? Well PostBank for a start—the post offices. Now you wonder why the old people in New Zealand still say that Labour did us in the eye because it took away our local post offices. That is what happened. 
Grant Robertson 
: Bring them back Tau. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh let us talk about bringing it back. Labour said yesterday with the Greens and New Zealand First that they want to buy them back. They want to buy the assets back. That is not true. This is what they want to do. They want to nationalise. That is a terrible word. They have said that they want to nationalise the assets that we are getting rid of the 49 percent of them. It is about nationalisation and the last guy who got away with it was Hugo Chávez in Venezuela when he nationalised all of the assets—private assets. This is what they want to do. This is what Andrew Little wants to do. He wants to allow people to buy assets but then when Labour gets to Government it is going to take them off them. It is going to nationalise people’s private property. If New Zealand First the Greens and Labour are not going to do that they should get up in the House and say they will not nationalise those assets—they will not take them out of private ownership. 
CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Speaker. Tena koutou e te Whare. After that outburst of testosterone we will now enter a period of calm. Today I am going to speak about an issue that many people do not know much about but it is not necessary for me to shout because how loud we shout does not indicate the significance of what we are going to talk about. 
I am going to talk about when the Prime Minister went to Jakarta in April. He met with the President of Indonesia and the President discussed with him the sad issue of the human rights abuses in West Papua. They had a nice little chat. And then interestingly enough last week I found out that the New Zealand Defence Force is training a Kopassus officer an officer from the special unit that is known for human rights abuses right throughout East Timor Aceh and West Papua. I do not think many citizens of this country would be happy to know that the New Zealand Defence Force is training people like Major Edwin Sumanta who is part of the Kopassus special unit which Human Rights Watch has accused of torture and murder in West Papua. This issue is one that brings New Zealand to shame. We should stop training military who are implicated in violence in West Papua. What that means is stopping training anyone from Indonesia until it stops the abuses that are taking place as we speak in that country. 
Right now in West Papua we have a sorry record of human rights abuses. Last week the military attacked a village in the area of Wamena and they burnt a number of houses. Then Mako Tabuni was assassinated outside the university—shot in cold blood. Buchtar Tabuni was arrested and detained without trial and a number of other people have been killed. These Pacific people are being killed without licence by members of military groups such as Kopassus whom we are colluding with if we continue to be involved with them and continue to train them. And so we have a situation now in West Papua—which is basically an occupied country—where people are being subjected to human rights abuses. It is less than 400 miles north of Australia. Most citizens of this country think West Papua is somewhere connected to somewhere but they have absolutely no idea of our own involvement as a country with this issue. 
I am not the foreign affairs spokesperson for the Greens but I am a citizen with a conscience and I cannot unknow what I have learnt from my colleagues in West Papua who are refugees from that regime. I and others today went to the Indonesian Embassy. We held a vigil outside the embassy and we held up the Morning Star flag. The reason we held up the Morning Star flag is that unlike in Aotearoa New Zealand if you raise the Morning Star flag in West Papua you get 15 years in prison. If that is the kind of country we want to trade with—Indonesia—do we not think that we should demand a higher standard of ethics from our trading partners than arresting people shooting them having summary executions in the streets of their country and putting people in jail for 15 years for raising their flag? In this country we can raise any flag we like with impunity which is the way it should be. We should be able to stand up and raise a flag instead of which people just north of here are in prison for 15 years. The Jayapura 5 who dared to be the leaders of a congress held in October 2011 are doing 3½ years in jail for daring to discuss the issue of self-determination. 
The Aotearoa New Zealand Government does have a role—definitely—as a peacemaker. We should be taking leadership as we did with Bougainville with Aceh and with East Timor—eventually although it took a while—in terms of requiring the Indonesian Government to stop killing citizens. It is not acceptable. As much as we are concerned about Syria and as much as we are genuinely concerned about issues in Palestine those countries actually have something that West Papua does not. They have the international media and the international Red Cross. The international Red Cross is not allowed in West Papua. The international media are not allowed in West Papua. And yet our Government is training Kopassus. We need to answer as to why our Government has allowed that to happen because I do not think our citizens think torture is acceptable I do not think the citizens of this country think being put in jail for 15 years for raising a flag is acceptable and yet we continue to collude with the Indonesian Government policy of attacks on citizens in West Papua. 
Hon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises) 
: 
 Thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call in support of our colleagues at I think a very important time for the world as they consider the very significant challenges arising from debt. What has to be remembered particularly about this debate and this reference to the Government’s mixed-ownership model is that it has to be seen within a wider context and a wider plan that the Government has in order to help control our nation’s debt and continue to invest and grow our economy. These decisions are being made at very very difficult times internationally. In just the last few hours it has been reported that both Spain and Italy are likely to be bailed out to the tune of £600 billion from the European monetary resources in order to support them. Ireland is expecting another bailout from the fund and it has been reported in just the last 24 hours that the Russian Government itself—the Russian Government—is putting aside US$40 billion as the euro crisis buffer in that area. So things are very very unstable in many parts of the world. In Germany 40 economists have told Chancellor Merkel that she should actually break away and establish a “northern euro”. 
This just tells you about this uncertainty that is happening internationally and the consequence of not controlling debt which is the reason why the Government wants to do that. But what opportunities are there for New Zealand with that uncertainty in Europe? Well it certainly means that a number of investors here at home will be more interested in investing in New Zealand I am sure because of that uncertainty. And what we know is that in times of uncertainty people look towards infrastructural assets for the assurance that they provide. While we do have this very uncertain international situation New Zealand’s proximity to Australia and China is good for our future prospects and also it should indicate a changing environment for investment prospects here in New Zealand as well. 
I think it is pretty clear that the Government is making a lot of progress in explaining to the public of New Zealand what the mixed-ownership model is about. It is about controlling our debt and making sure that we are in a position where we can invest into the future. It works pretty straightforwardly. We hope to release about $5 billion to $7 billion over a 3 to 5-year period from the mixed-ownership model. That money will go into the Future Investment Fund which will be available for investment in important infrastructural assets like schools roads and hospitals. 
The Government has been upfront from January 2011 that this was our proposal. We have had a piece of legislation that has gone through a select committee process. There has been no urgency to date involved in this process. We have been quite clear. But that stands in absolute contrast to the lies and deceit of the 1987 general election where the Labour Party did not campaign on the fact that it would go on to sell $10 billion of public assets to the highest bidder. There was no talk about everyday New Zealanders taking a stake. There was no talk publicly about selling it off to foreigners and Fay Richwhite—none of that in the 1987 general election. It was kept quiet. Mr Goff never told anybody. Mr Mallard never told anybody. Annette King never told anybody. Mike Moore never told anybody. No one in the Labour Party told anyone that it was going to sell these public assets which is why there is so much suspicion about this because people think that it is going to be what it was like when Labour sold $10 billion worth of assets to the highest-bidding foreign interest it could possibly get. 
Our Government on the other hand has been completely open and transparent—open and transparent. We have been upfront since January 2011 about our plan to do this as part of a very sensible strategy to control debt and get our country back into the black because if you are heading from where we are now which is about $52 billion or $53 billion a year in debt to $72 billion a year in debt there is an imperative that we take action. This is part of a very sensible prudent response by our Prime Minister to make sure that our country can face the difficult times ahead as we work together to deal with the debt. 
The debate having concluded the motion lapsed. 
Mixed Ownership Model Bill 
In Committee 
Debate resumed from 19 June. 
Part 2 Ongoing provision for mixed ownership model companies ( 
continued 
)  
DAVID CLENDON (Green) 
: 
 When the House rose last evening I was asking the Government and indeed the Minister who was in the chair the Minister of Police to explain the intention of this new section 45Q “Treaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi)” inserted by clause 16. We have just heard interestingly enough from the previous speaker in the previous debate Tony Ryall that this Government prides itself on transparency integrity and other desirable attributes. I ask the Minister for State Owned Enterprises to please explain what the intention is of new section 45Q because it is entirely unclear to me. It proposes that the majority shareholder—the 51 percent owner the Government 51 percent of a mixed-ownership model company—will be bound to not act inconsistently with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi but for the avoidance of doubt this does not apply to persons other than the Crown. This sounds to me like a nonsense where 51 percent of the time the company will be obliged to act in a way that is consistent with the principles of the Treaty and 49 percent of the time it will not. 
Let us have a little bit of clarity and transparency on this. I would urge the Government to accept Supplementary Order Paper 71 in the name of our co-leader Dr Norman which will make it crystal clear that the new companies the new entities 100 percent of the time will be obliged absolutely to operate in a way that is consistent with the principles of the Treaty. The clause otherwise is a meaningless nonsense. It is a sop to those Maori interests that have objected very strongly to having the Treaty clause that is within the State-Owned Enterprises Act removed from this Mixed Ownership Model Bill. Of course it was not present in the original drafting of the bill. This is a little bit of trying to have a dollar each way to have a clause without really having a clause. I would ask the Minister to either explain to us exactly how this clause will work in practice or simply adopt the Supplementary Order Paper. 
The other point I would like to raise briefly is the question of new section 45S. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I want to address new section 45S in clause 16 and my amendment to that but before I do I just want to address the repeated comments that have been made by the Minister for State Owned Enterprises throughout this debate as he casts his selective mind back in history in respect of the sale of State assets. I am not going to labour this point. I am just going to ask whether the Minister recalls—he might want to give us a dissertation when he gets up and actually answers a question—his being in a Bolger Cabinet or a Shipley Cabinet that sold off asset after asset after asset— 
Grant Robertson 
: New Zealand Rail. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —New Zealand Rail BNZ and others without any public consultation at all. 
Phil Twyford 
: Going to sell TVNZ. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: And they were going to flog off Television New Zealand. Who was the National Cabinet Minister who said before the election when we were in Government: “It’s so last year.”? Well this was 20 years ago. In fact I was attacked by the Minister for being a 14-year-old whippersnapper in short pants wandering around apparently responsible for all the ills some of which there were in the fourth Labour Government. 
That is how desperate this Minister is. He never talks about the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. We asked him a number of questions the other night and I put those questions to him again. In respect of the 10 percent ownership cap we had testimony after testimony at the Finance and Expenditure Committee that it was riddled full of holes and that there is no penalty. Of course there is no penalty in this bill. You have to remedy within 60 days and that is it. 
I put a question to the Minister who I note—because I have checked the  
Hansard 
—has made a couple of speeches in this debate and not answered one question. Mr Clendon put questions to him about the Treaty clause. I put questions to the Minister last night about that provision and specifically raised the concerns of Tuwharetoa but all this Minister has done throughout the debate is stand up and walk back in time selectively to the 1980s jump over and forget that he was intricately involved in the Bolger Government and its asset sales and talk about history and that provides him he believes with an alibi so that he does not have to answer any questions or make a case. 
So I am going to ask the Minister now: is he planning to answer any questions put to him by this Parliament on this legislation? Silence. Silence. We will take that as a no. I will just ask him again in case he got distracted. Is the Minister Mr Ryall the Minister for State Owned Enterprises who is in charge of this bill planning to answer any questions put to him by members of this Committee? I take it that that is a no. Silence. That proves the contempt that he has for this Chamber the contempt that he has for members of the House and the contempt that he has for the nearly 1500 submitters who submitted on many of these issues. 
His officials will have given him advice or maybe they have been told by the Minister not to advise him on the 10 percent ownership cap and not to provide him with any answers because he does not want to know—just like he told his officials not to go and investigate the issues of State-owned enterprise power retailers being cheaper than their private sector counterparts. He did not want to know. So I am going to put it on record so that we have the  
Hansard 
 so that people know the contempt with which this Minister is treating Parliament and treating those submitters. 
We were told on the 10 percent ownership cap that you would be able to drive a bus through it—that it would be very easy to get around especially through the nominee entities because the nominee entities of course can police what is within their own nominee entity but there is no policing across those nominee entities. As one submitter—I cannot recall her name but I will find it as this debate goes on—from an eminent thinktank who is a specialist in this area said you would need a sort of active securities police force which was the term I think she used to actually police every transaction. Then I ask the Minister why if he believes that this 10 percent cap will work there are no penalties in the legislation. Not one—no monetary penalty not any. 
So it will be interesting to see after 2 days of questioning whether the Minister gets off his backside and actually answers a number of these questions. They are important. We have put them to him for 48 hours. We put them to him before the select committee. We put them to the officials. Each time we have tried to have these questions answered and our fears allayed there has been silence. So I put it again to the Minister. Will the Minister be prepared to answer any questions? 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: If you sit down now. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Oh he is alive! There was a noise. There was a gurgle or a cough or some sort of squeak that came out of the bellows over there. We have made history. He is actually going to answer some questions. Will I sit down? No problem but I am going to finish my speech first because we have got a few others. Now that he has got a bit of momentum—he has had a couple of sandwiches for lunch or a Milo or something and he has got a bit of energy up—he is actually going to do his job and earn his pay. 
In respect of Tuwharetoa and the questions around that we heard from Tuwharetoa that they did not believe the Maori Party’s commitment that the Maori Party’s clause which it takes great credit for would protect their Treaty customary legal and property rights. They came with Georgina te Heuheu and told us—armed to the teeth they were with highly specialist qualified legal advice—that the Treaty clause in their view would not protect them. I am advised that they are in some sort of discussions with the Crown. We do not know what those discussions are we do not know whether they are happening and we do not know whether the Crown is prepared to listen but we were advised very squarely by Tuwharetoa in answer to a question that I raised asking whether they would look at legal action and advance their arguments in a court if necessary that they would pursue any legal avenue through the courts or otherwise that they could to secure their position. 
They are in quite a unique position in some ways. They gifted back water resources to the Crown on the premise that the revenue derived from those water resources would be used in the interests of our community; they would be retained by the State and then utilised through the Crown by our community. Then these geniuses come along and say that they are flogging off at least 49 percent of the energy State-owned enterprises and that means that there will be private sector people utilising those resources which Tuwharetoa gifted back to the Crown for the public good in order to get private gain. This Minister woke up one day and thought “Hang on this might be a problem.” and then did absolutely nothing about it. So if there are discussions we would like to know whether Tuwharetoa are wrong. If they are wrong and all their legal advice is wrong and the Hon Georgina te Heuheu former National Minister in that Government and colleague of the Hon Tony Ryall is wrong then let us hear it. 
And let us not stop there Minister. Tell us exactly the rationale as to why this provision will protect those interests. Yet again we could not get an answer out of the officials because they were not allowed to tell us. They were not allowed to tell us in the end. We had to prepare our report and then they sort of followed up. They were muzzled by the Minister. They were muzzled by the chair of the committee. He did not want to know yet again. 
Any Minister worth his or her salt even if they do not like the advice will listen to it and then they are charged under our system with making a judgment based upon it. But not this one; he does not want to know—hear no evil see no evil. “Do not give me a memo. Do not tell me that this policy could be wrong. I do not want to know.” say the National Party members and their ilk. We have the 10 percent cap; we say we are moving an amendment to take it down to 1 percent. That is our concern and where we are in regard to it. But it would be really good if this Minister actually dealt with those issues. 
The final point I want to make is that there has been some talk and it relates directly to the 10 percent cap about loyalty schemes. Well that is a scam. That is a complete scam and we know what the National Party tactic is: we are going to have a loyalty scheme and in that scheme you will get your free shares in 2½ years’ time just after the 2014 election which will enable the Prime Minister to go around with the fiction that there are all these Kiwis staying with the company—“See we told you so they’re staying in the company”—but they get their share after the 2014 election. 
We know this happened with Contact Energy in terms of shareholders pulling out. It went from 225000 individual shareholders on float in 1999 to 78225-odd give or take. That is a 65 percent reduction. Two-thirds were sold off and you did not even have a loyalty share there. So what Kiwis will do is quite rightly what is best for them and I respect them for it. They will keep those shares until they get their bonus just after the next election and then they will sell because that is the history of it. They will sell because they have had a windfall gain and they are struggling to make ends meet. But by the next election by God they will be struggling under this regime even more. 
So I would like to know whether that loyalty scheme may be advanced to institutions and what effect the 10 percent cap will have on them. Will those institutions be availed of that scheme even though they are capped at 10 percent or will this be confined to mum and dad Kiwis—although mum and dad Kiwis are now defined as ACC KiwiSaver and other superannuation funds and institutions domiciled here not mum and dad Kiwis. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I call the honourable member Denise Roche. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I apologise for interrupting the member. The Minister in the chair and you would have heard him in response to me said that he would answer questions once I had sat down— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No that is not a point of order. The member is a very experienced member. Stop trifling with the Chair. I call the honourable member Denise Roche. 
DENISE ROCHE (Green) 
: 
 I rise to oppose this part— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Again I do apologise for interrupting the member. The Minister in the chair did indeed make a statement. Is he now misleading the Committee and backing off from that statement? 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: That is not a point of order. I have warned the member. He has got his first yellow card. I call the honourable member Denise Roche. 
DENISE ROCHE 
: Tena koe. Tena koutou ki te Whare. I join with many colleagues on this side of the Chamber to oppose this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. Part 1 just to recap removed a whole bunch of requirements around social responsibility good-employer provisions and provisions of the Ombudsmen Act to be able to check what would happen with these companies once they are partially privatised and also removed them from the provisions of the Official Information Act. 
Then in Part 2 we see the whittling down and the watering down of the Treaty of Waitangi. It begs the question as to why you would remove the Treaty of Waitangi provisions from this part of the bill when in fact the Government says that these shares will be sold to New Zealanders. New Zealanders are a partner of the Treaty of Waitangi. It does not make sense that we need to put in special provisions to exclude 49 percent of our people. 
I am going to talk briefly about my colleague and co-leader Russel Norman’s Supplementary Order Paper 39 which calls for this bill to be deferred until the petition for the citizens initiated referendum on the sale of the State-owned assets has been completed because we are confident that we will be able to get 310000 signatures. In the last 3 days I have spent hours and hours alongside Green Party volunteers collecting signatures. I can tell you very clearly that even National Party supporters are opposed to the sale of our State-owned assets. They are signing this petition in droves. As of today the Green Party in 6 weeks has collected in excess of 45000 signatures. It is incredibly easy to collect them. I spent 2 hours on Queen Street yesterday and during that time I personally collected 90 signatures. That is about one signature every 1½ minutes. 
The conversations were the same over and over: this is theft. Selling the assets that were bought and built for us by previous generations steals from our generation and generations to come. This was coming very clearly from National Party supporters. In fact I got into an argument about other parts of our policy with one National Party supporter but he was very happy to sign the petition and to take it to his friends. A referendum would not be binding but it is a very clear signal and the rate of people signing the petition as it is at the moment clearly shows that this is an election issue and this Government does not have a mandate to sell these assets. I am sure my colleagues from the Labour Party from Mana and from New Zealand First and our allies in Grey Power Greenpeace and the New Zealand Union of Students’ Associations are hearing these stories over and over and over again. These assets belong to us all. They are not for the Government to sell. 
My colleague Russel Norman yesterday pointed out that the votes around the parts of this bill in Committee are very very close. And the vote will be extremely close when it comes to the third reading. Yesterday Part 1 was passed with a 61 to 60 result. That is not democracy. That is not a mandate. That is not fair to New Zealand citizens it is not fair or honourable to those who built up those assets for us and it is certainly not fair to the generations to come who will be paying higher and higher and higher electricity prices. 
Selling these assets is short-sighted. It does not in the long term resolve any of the deficit issues. In fact as we have heard time and time again across the Chamber it increases our lack of resilience. It increases our situation where we are basically reliant on debt because we lose our income-generating assets. A short-term fix a rush of sugar is how one person who signed the petition on Saturday explained it to me. Selling these assets— 
Hon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises) 
: 
 It is very interesting that the previous speaker Denise Roche talked about the burden that this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill will have for future generations. The fact is that increased debt is a burden for future generations. If you are worried about stealing from your grandchildren burdening them with debt that they do not need is the biggest part of it. 
Some of the more informed members of the Committee have asked a couple of questions about the Treaty clause. I will be very clear with the member: the current Treaty clause in the State-Owned Enterprises Act does not apply to the State-owned enterprises; it applies to the Crown in right of New Zealand. The obligations rest with the Crown. That exact obligation is being transferred in the new legislation and those obligations remain the same. That is the advice that the Finance and Expenditure Committee got from the officials during the select committee consideration. The legislation also recognises—and it was the advice that the committee got—that the memorial regime that currently exists which gives Maori specific rights on land that may or may not be transferred remains as well. 
It is very important to know that there is a penalties regime around those who breach this legislation. Those who breach the 10 percent cap risk losing the voting rights. A Supplementary Order Paper means that they will also lose their dividends from those shares in excess and there is a criminal offence in breaching those securities rules. Right now—and members opposite may not be aware of this but many New Zealanders will be—a company or a holder of investments or shares in a publicly listed company must declare their holding once it is at 5 percent and then they must declare every 1 percent increase in their holding thereafter. If they fail to do that then they are subject to quite significant penalties in legislation which include not only a criminal breach but also a significant sanction. The significant sanction is that they will stand to have shares confiscated. In fact in the last decade there was a high-profile private company that lost I think 6 million shares in an investment company as a result apparently of failing to disclose step increases in its shareholdings. So there are quite significant penalties: losing voting rights; losing the dividends of the excess shares which is part of the Supplementary Order Paper that we tabled on Monday; the criminal sanctions that apply to this; and the very severe sanction that shares could be confiscated if people fail to honour their obligations under those securities expectations. Those are very very significant penalties and I think any investor of any size in the New Zealand stock market is well aware of those and acts to make sure they respect that in order to avoid confiscation. 
This is I think a very good approach to a State-owned enterprise sales programme. I think it replicates what we saw in the Shipley Government where we sold shares in the Auckland International Airport to ordinary New Zealanders. It was called a great example of popular capitalism by the Treasurer at the time. We also had a public float for the sale of shares in Government Property Services and significant thousands of New Zealands took shares in that. When it came to the Contact Energy share float the Government helped to create I think 120000 first-time shareholders. 
The big issue here is that Labour members opposite do not think everyday people are good enough to own shares or that they can be trusted. They do not think that the electrician from west Auckland who has worked hard and is trying to save for his or her retirement should own shares. They think those people are a bit uppity that they might want to own shares and that they cannot be trusted. They have called those people a part of a “small elite”. The nurse who has a bit of money saved from her wages that she wants to put into an infrastructural investment in these times is part of a small elite and she cannot be trusted either. She cannot be trusted because the minute she gets an offer of 10c more than she paid for each share apparently she is going to sell them. 
Chris Auchinvole 
: Just like that. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: Just like that. Ten cents. The fact is that a lot of everyday people want the opportunity to own these shares and the opportunity to participate because this gives them a good savings opportunity. Many members will remember what it was like when the finance companies collapsed under the Labour Government’s mismanagement. Many many people came along and put their money into Blue Chip New Zealand Five Star Consumer Finance Capital + Merchant Finance and Hanover Finance and they lost it. The previous Government did very little about those situations. It let the securities legislation and prudential management fall into disrepair and that is what happened. The Hon Simon Power had to basically run the process for the previous Labour Government to tidy it up. 
A lot of people know they need to be cautious about investment. But as people add to KiwiSaver and superannuation funds and as iwi accumulate financial resources—and there is over $100 billion on term deposit in New Zealand today—they are looking for opportunities to invest in infrastructure and to invest in yield. That is what part of the Government’s mixed-ownership model programme is about. It is about creating investment opportunities for New Zealanders not only as individuals but also as families iwi and people with KiwiSaver and superannuation funds. Right now people’s KiwiSaver funds have probably got more invested in energy companies in overseas jurisdictions than they have in New Zealand. [ 
Interruption 
] “The Super Fund sure has.” says Mr Foss. We want to create those opportunities for New Zealanders to have a wider range of investments. We are backing that with the mixed-ownership model programme. 
We also trust New Zealanders to make these investment decisions. We do not think people are uppity because they want to own shares. I remember when we made tens of thousands of people first-time shareholders in the late 1990s. People took great pride in their share certificates. They took great pride in their share certificates— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: On the mantelpiece beside the picture of the Queen. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: —and they put them on their mantelpieces. I am sure many of them did because it was actually the first time they were able to buy shares. Only 10 percent of New Zealanders own shares directly and that contrasts with I think about 30 percent in Australia. There is a need for New Zealanders to have this opportunity. But Labour members do not trust them. They say that the minute someone comes along and offers them 1c more they are going to sell them—they are going to sell them straight away. The fact is that Port of Tauranga proves the opposite—55 percent local government; 45 percent on the share market. What we are finding there is that New Zealanders are buying out— 
Andrew Little 
: What a shocking example. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: “What a shocking example.” says Mr Andrew Little. 
Andrew Little 
: Killing workers more than any other port in the country. What a terrible example the Minister’s come up with. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: How pathetic! Sad sad sad little man! He is accusing the port of killing people. That is sad. It does not even warrant—[ 
Interruption 
] So sad! This is about New Zealanders investing in infrastructure and having those opportunities. That stands in complete contrast to when Labour was last in office. Dr Nick Smith made the comment about the mine on the West Coast. Labour Ministers apparently approved the sale of 49 percent of Spring Creek Mine to foreign interests—foreign interests. They approved the sale apparently to foreign interests. 
Hon Member 
: What were the caveats? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: What were the caveats? Well I do not know the caveats. One Minister approved it from the perspective of the Overseas Investment Office. Labour was happy to sell a portion of an energy company to foreigners at that time but now that it is in Opposition it has changed its mind. Labour members do not think energy companies should be sold to foreigners; they think there should be restrictions on foreigners. They have changed their minds. Labour sold $10 billion of public assets to the highest foreign bidders and to Fay Richwhite which it did not tell anyone about. When it sold the public assets to the highest foreign bidders Fay Richwhite and the elite Labour did not want to tell New Zealanders. But this Prime Minister has been upfront from January 2011. It was the centrepiece of the election campaign. Labour got the lowest result it has ever had since 1915 apparently and National got the highest vote there has been under MMP. That is a mandate but we take it very seriously and that is the reason why we are working hard to secure a better future for New Zealanders. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
: 
 It is a frightening thought to think of Mr Ryall’s mantelpiece. There will be the share certificates alongside the Whakatane amateur dramatics society “most improved player” award. The truth is that the nurses around the country who Mr Ryall says are queuing up to buy the shares are the same nurses protesting against Mr Ryall because they actually do not have enough money to pay the power bill let alone buy the power company. 
Let us take just one of Mr Ryall’s words there. Who is really looking after the “small elite” here? Is it this side of the Chamber who want to see these assets stay in the hands of all New Zealanders or is it that side of the Chamber who want to see them sold off eventually into foreign hands? That side of the Chamber are the ones who are looking after the small elite; this side of the Chamber are the ones who are saying that we should continue to have these assets in public ownership for all New Zealanders. 
Mr Ryall says that the Labour Party does not believe that New Zealanders can be trusted. We believe that New Zealanders can be trusted to retain these assets for future generations unlike that side of the Chamber who want to sell them off hock them off and make sure that New Zealanders will not have them in the future. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Are you going to buy them back? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Nick Smith is chirping in. I just think it is appropriate to mention what the 1990s National Government did given that is what the Minister has just done. BNZ New Zealand Rail the Ministry of Works Radio New Zealand Commercial Contact Energy half of Auckland Airport—they are not talking about them now are they? That is what they sold in the 1990s. In the 2000s a Labour Government had to come in and buy back the rail because it had been run down so badly. It bought back most of Air New Zealand because it had been run down so badly. The record of this side of the Chamber is far stronger on growing New Zealand’s asset base than that Government over there and the Minister in charge of this bill the Minister for State Owned Enterprises was in a Cabinet that hocked off those assets. 
 I want to talk about my Supplementary Order Paper 59 on this part to amend clause 16— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Great SOP. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: —it is an excellent Supplementary Order Paper—to add new section 45Y “Restriction on holdings in companies with control of water resources”. I want to do that because there is little more that binds all of these assets bar Air New Zealand together than water—the control of and the rights to use water. It is an essential part of this debate. We have already heard others speak about the importance of these issues for Tuwharetoa in the context of their issues. We have got the Maori Council claim in place as well. On this side of the Chamber we believe that it is actually important to say that if we have got a resource like water a resource that is for all New Zealanders that resource should remain in the ownership of all New Zealanders. 
I do not expect the National members to agree with this. I do not expect the National members to say: “Yes we believe that water is a resource that should remain in the ownership of all New Zealanders.” but I would expect it out of some of the people who are voting for this bill. I think the Hon Peter Dunne needs to take some ownership of this matter because Peter Dunne said in October last year—this is what he said—when he was talking about all of the things about asset sales that pained him: “Thirdly and one that I feel particularly deeply about is water.”—this is Peter Dunne—“I do not intend to wait until it is on the asset sales agenda. I do not believe New Zealanders would ever—or should ever—accept a sell-off of the supply of the water or any of the aspects around it.” So if Peter Dunne believes that—that he does not want to see the sell-off of the supply of water or any aspects around it—he should be supporting my Supplementary Order Paper to say that— 
Sue Moroney 
: He will be. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I think he will. I think he will support my Supplementary Order Paper because he is bound to. He is bound to see Supplementary Order Paper 59 and say: “I stood by the words that I said in October 2011 that water should not be privatised.” And that is effectively what is happening here. Water is being privatised by stealth through the sale of these assets. 
Peter Dunne should come down to this Chamber and say: “Yes I am standing by what I said in October 2011. I am actually going to do that. I am actually going to say: ‘I’m not going to let these asset sales go through.’ ” because they compromise the fundamental things that he has said New Zealanders believe which is that water is something that belongs to all of us and that its privatisation will fundamentally undermine these assets. It will also fundamentally undermine the principle that New Zealanders believe in about access to water resources. I challenge Peter Dunne. I do not expect the National members to support this because I know that the privatisation of water is on their agenda but I do expect Peter Dunne to come down to this Chamber and say that he would like to support this. 
The other matter I want to mention in clause 16 is new section 45Q around the Treaty issues. I want to pick up the words that the Minister for State Owned Enterprises used just before. [ 
Bell rung 
] Thank you very much Mr Chair and my colleagues I am sure will have a lot to say on this clause when I finish in a few minutes. When Tony Ryall was speaking on new section 45Q he said that the reason that the new Treaty clause applies to only the Crown and not other shareholders is that it applied to only the Crown in the State-Owned Enterprises Act. Well the reason it applied to only the Crown in the State-Owned Enterprises Act is that the Crown was the only owner of the shares. So it is a ridiculous argument to make to say that it is a simple transfer of the rights and obligations of the Crown into this new bill. That is a ridiculous proposition. It is a ridiculous proposition to say that only some of the owners of these assets now have obligations under the Treaty. 
I want to refer Government members to the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management which this National Government signed itself up to. I want to read from the preamble of that. This is what it says: “The Treaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi) is the underlying foundation of the Crown-iwi/hapu relationship with regard to freshwater resources. Addressing tangata whenua values and interests across all of the well-beings and including the involvement of iwi and hapu in the overall management of fresh water are key to meeting obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi.” This Government has recognised that issues to do with water are critical to the relationship with Maori. It has recognised that. But here we are standing in a debate where we have got a Treaty clause that applies to only part of these assets. It applies to only the Crown’s aspects of these assets now. 
Denis O’Rourke 
: Half the water. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Exactly Mr O’Rourke—half the water. It is only 49 percent of the water. How is the Government going to do that? 
Hon Member 
: Which half? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Which half? Is it the half that is in Mr Foss’ glass here? I do not know. We do not know because this clause now applies to only the Crown. 
There is no doubt that the Government has tied itself in knots with new section 45Q in this bill. It did not know what to do the Maori Party was looking for a way out and so it went with a ridiculous premise that because under the State-Owned Enterprises Act it applied to only the Crown it could apply to only the Crown now. It applied to the Crown under the State-Owned Enterprises Act because the Crown was the owner of those assets. It should apply across the board and Mr Mallard has an amendment in his name to make sure that those principles apply across the board. 
If the National Government has any faith whatsoever in this National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management it will adopt Mr Mallard’s amendment and actually make a sensible Treaty clause here that applies right across the companies. It is a ridiculous proposition to try to say it applies to only the Crown. It is a ridiculous proposition to put forward a bill that transfers water rights away from New Zealanders and that effectively begins the privatisation of water. That is something that is definitely on the National Government’s agenda but it should not be done by stealth. The Government should be upfront about this and if it is not it should support my amendment to this clause. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I seek leave that a 30-minute allocation be provided in the next call so that the Hon Peter Dunne who has not spoken in this debate can participate. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No no. The member cannot seek leave for someone else. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour—Ikaroa-Rawhiti) 
: 
 Mr Chair I apologise for deviating yesterday but can I say that I was about to give the Government a historical summary of how great this country has become. In relation to reconciliation over generations we have worked hard with those Pakehas who came along a lot of their tipuna and mine—the Rutherfords and the Buntings—and took the Maori land. We flash forward and we listen to this prattle by Mr Ryall trying to ensure that Fly Buys cards and being better off by $12 is something that is important. 
Let me tell you this and mark my words: this is one of the worst days for Maoridom in relation to the Treaty of Waitangi. The Government has undermined it. How on earth can you split between 51 percent and 49 percent and say that the Treaty is relevant here and it is not relevant there? This is exactly why Sir Graham Latimer went to London—because the Government was trying to flog off the assets before the settlements were done. There are seven settlements at the moment that rely on and are relevant to geothermal energy supply and water resources. How come all of a sudden it becomes an edict of this Government to decide that those resources are stripped out of a process that is legislated for in this country—the Treaty process? It is shocking and Government members should hang their heads in shame. 
It is noticeable that the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations has not been involved in this discussion because he does not like it. I know he does not like it. He knows it is treacherous he knows it is traitorous and he knows that it is about undercutting the good work done by successive generations in this country both Maori and Pakeha. It is gutless. It is demeaning to the rights of the Treaty. The Maori Party has not shown up and thank goodness it saw sense at the end and created one of the closest voting margins in this Chamber: 61 to 60. And you are saying you have got the support of the people? Ninety-eight percent of the submissions on this matter said no. They said n-o. Craig Foss knows that. He knows living in Tukituki that Kahungunu are still trying to etch together their Treaty claim. He knows it is relevant to water and the Mohaka River. He knows full well that this Government is trying to pull a swiftie to ensure that the water right is diminished. This is unbelievable. To sell it on and to say that this is for mums and dads of this country—well there will not be many Maori mums and dads buying these shares and getting a kick out of it like the Minister for State Owned Enterprises Tony Ryall has suggested. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What about their KiwiSaver accounts? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: KiwiSaver which we had the common sense and the foresight to start is something that will benefit our people but where does this benefit the people of this nation in flogging off the assets that they already own? Guess what! I own a Ford car but I will sell it to somebody else and I will still own it. What a load of rubbish! What a load of rubbish! 
What you have opened up in undermining the Treaty settlement process is that anything that becomes involved with foreign ownership or investment now is not relevant or does not have any standing in relation to the Treaty settlement legislation in the country which is kosher. Trevor Mallard’s amendments and Grant Robertson’s amendments are very very important—very very important. I am overwhelmed with the support of the members of our party in relation to this Treaty of Waitangi clause. 
Go to Tuwharetoa. What did Tuwharetoa do for this country? They gifted to the nation the reserves. They gave them to it. They gifted them to this nation as a sign of goodwill in relation to nationhood and partnership. And this gutless lot over there— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! Order! 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: —this nonsensical lot who are culturalists are undermining it. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: No one can accuse this member of being gutless. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Maurice Williamson is one of the ones who really know the truth about this. He was the one who agreed about broadband and those things being allocated to Maori. That was Maurice. He understood that bandwidth was important to Maoridom. But to exaggerate that the water and that is nothing is a rip-off. 
DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First) 
: 
 I want to begin first of all by setting out what National’s legacy is going to be as a result of the passage of this Mixed Ownership Model Bill if indeed it does pass. In fact there will be five legacies. 
First of all the glass will be empty when it comes to water rights for power generation in this country. Secondly the cupboard will be bare when it comes to energy generation assets in this country. Thirdly we will still be as deeply in debt at the end of this process as we were at the beginning. There is no doubt at all that this Government’s objective of achieving a surplus in 2014 is totally unrealistic. We will still have the debt at the end of that and it will be just about as much as we have now. That is the result of Government mismanagement and it will not be saved by the sale of these assets. 
Fourthly we will have higher power prices for everybody in this country. Most people believe that. They believe it simply because that is what will happen when overseas purchasers get hold of the majority of the shares in these companies as they will eventually—as they will eventually. And they will do that because they know that the ownership of these companies and the control of these companies is almost a licence to print money simply because of the degree of dominance these companies have in the New Zealand energy market. 
Fifthly of course for the same reasons I have just outlined we will have compromised New Zealand’s economic sovereignty. That is what most people think is a complete disgrace and that is the main reason for most of the objections. 
I also want to reply to Bill English who made a speech earlier today. He goaded Labour about not making a commitment to buy back these shares. I would also like Labour to commit to a buy-back of these shares and I would like to hear from the Greens as well on that issue because New Zealand First has made that commitment and has made it unequivocally. But in return I also want to challenge Mr English and National to also commit to and agree to a clause in this bill empowering shareholding Ministers to buy back these shares and at no more than the price that was originally paid for them when they were sold by the Crown. I challenge Mr English and National to do that. If Mr English thinks it was smart to goad the other parties let him put his actions where his words were and commit to exactly the same thing because as I have said New Zealand First has made that commitment unequivocally and I want to hear that from all of the other parties as well. 
It makes sense. It makes sense to commit to buy back these shares simply because these shares are such a good investment. That is why they will be popular in the market place. People know that they are worth buying and New Zealand First does not deny that. New Zealand First understands that. That is why they should not be sold in the first place and that is why New Zealand First will buy them back if it ever gets the chance to do so—and I think we will. 
Another thing is this. Because of the dividend stream including both ordinary and capital dividends it makes no economic sense for these shares to be sold. In fact they are profitable shares. They are worth more for their dividend stream than the cost of servicing loans if they were sold. It will be profitable and economically responsible to buy them back because over recent years the average return from these companies has been 16 percent or more. That is the truth if you include both capital and ordinary dividends. That is the fact. That is exactly why we should be keeping them. At the same time the cost of borrowing by the Government is usually less than 4 percent so it makes absolutely no sense whatever to sell these shares. 
In addition to that of course there is capital growth in these companies as well. That should accrue to New Zealanders and not to some overseas purchaser of them. 
So New Zealand First’s proposal in the amendment in the name of Winston Peters is to make it possible at the option of the shareholding Ministers to compulsorily buy back these shares— 
PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) 
: 
 It is always interesting to listen to New Zealand First. It is a party of great barefaced ability to say one thing and do the other. We have Winston Peters. This is the man who is recorded as saying when he signed off the sale of Auckland Airport when he was Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer only a few years ago that he was “very pleased with a most successful public sale—it is popular capitalism in action.” It is also the party where we had Mr Williams talking about how terrible these sales were yet when he was North Shore mayor he was very happy to sell off the former council works depot for $11.4 million. Is that not amazing? So it is one thing when the Government does it; it is a different thing when those members are in power. 
This Mixed Ownership Model Bill—we are on Part 2—is about controlling our destiny. It is about keeping the total amount of Government debt under control in a dangerous global environment. It seems ironic to me that we have heard a lot from the other side about the fear of foreigners—“Aren’t they terrible!”. That is what is behind Supplementary Order Paper 51—a lot of anti-foreigner rhetoric. This puzzles me because any clear assessment would say that the fastest way to have this country lose its independence of action is to have too much international debt at this time. This Government is proposing to sell minority stakes in these companies—we expect mainly though not exclusively—to New Zealand investors. In doing so we reduce our need to borrow more on the international market and that is a good thing. If Labour and the Greens have the courage of their convictions they will commit here right now today to buy back these companies—to go out to the international markets borrow the money and buy them back. They will not because they know that it is a crazy thing to do. 
It is often forgotten that by introducing a share of private sector investment—49 percent as outlined in section 45R in clause 16—this bill will strengthen the companies involved by bringing to those companies private sector scrutiny and governance. Some people would say that is ideological. It is no more ideological than the assumption we have heard expressed relentlessly that State-owned enterprises are somehow better than private sector companies. I have seen no evidence for it and no evidence for Mr Parker’s claim yesterday that State-owned enterprises have a lower cost structure than those in the private sector. Where is the evidence to show that? Any awareness of New Zealand history shows that State-owned enterprises—and trading enterprises back in the 1980s such as forestry telecoms and the like—reveal that the State is not a good runner of business. 
Let us have a listen to what Mr Lange said in 1996. What did Mr Lange say when he talked about the Government’s economic policies? He said: “We had enterprises”—this is the Government—“that were ludicrously overstaffed horribly overcapitalised just embarrassments because they used social services that they provided as a shield against investigation into their wastefulness and inefficiency.” That is what David Lange said about the Government’s trading enterprises in the 1980s—“ludicrously overstaffed horribly overcapitalised just embarrassments”. Today’s State-owned enterprises are infinitely better than that but there is certainly no evidence to suppose as the Greens and Labour blindingly and ideologically believe that State enterprise is more efficient than private enterprise. So it is time you moved on with the times. 
When we look at the electricity market today the Consumer Powerswitch site as we have heard shows that in 14 out of the 21 regions in New Zealand today the cheapest company is privately owned. What those members do not understand is that if a company is always more expensive than the opposition it goes out of business. That is how market capitalism works. We can legislate all we like for social responsibility and other things such as what Supplementary Order Paper 61 talks about but a company will be successful for its shareholders only if it serves its customers well. That is how it works. And to do that it needs to be as efficient as possible and it needs to look after its staff and if it does not some other company will take over. That is how capitalism works. It is bizarre to hear members opposite spitting out the word “profit” as if it were a dirty word. Well profit is the basis of the market economy. The food the clothing the cars the books the TVs the iPods—all the things that we desire—are provided by companies not as a response to some clause on social responsibility but because they want to provide a service and make a well-earned profit. It works well. It is the most natural thing in the world. 
So the relevant question is whether the infusion of this private sector thinking and capital—a minority infusion as outlined in this bill—will be beneficial for these companies. I believe that it will. On that basis I think Part 2 is excellent legislation and I am looking forward to it going further. 
HONE HARAWIRA (Leader—Mana) 
: 
 Kia ora mai ano ra tatou. Tena koe Mr Chair. Kia ora tatou katoa. Do you know what is so sad about looking across the other side of the Chamber and hearing people talking about the Treaty clause—section 45Q in clause 16? Not one of the Maori MPs from National has even bothered to speak in defence of this Treaty clause. Not one of them. Tau Henare has not spoken in favour of the Treaty clause. He has not got up to speak on it at all. You can normally not shut the man up but do you think he is going to come here and defend National’s Treaty clause? No way Jose. Hekia Parata—has she stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Paula Bennett—has she stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Mike Sabin—has he stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Simon Bridges—has he stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: And what about your buddies in the Maori Party? Tariana Turia—has she stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Pita Sharples—has he stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Te Ururoa Flavell—has he stood up to defend National’s Treaty clause? 
Hon Members 
: No! 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Do you know why? Because all of your Maori buddies think it sucks! The one electorate that always backed you guys has been Tuwharetoa. Georgina te Heuheu come hell or high water always backed National. What happens? She goes off for 5 minutes and you are kicking her tribe in the teeth. That tribe gave its water for the nation for the benefit of the nation and you guys have betrayed them. You are going to flog it off. You and your market capitalism. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! Do not bring me into the debate. 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: My apologies Mr Chairman. 
Hon Member 
: They’re going to flog it off. 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: They are going to flog it off. Market capitalism has nothing at all to do with the Treaty. This is embarrassing. When of course they say that they have been out and had their consultation come on who is the iwi leader that has come out in support of this? Nobody! Nobody supports this. 
This Treaty clause is a jack-up. You can see it when it says: “For the avoidance of doubt subsection (1) does not apply to persons other than the Crown.” And then the Crown takes the view that it is only going to be a majority shareholder in a private company. There are no Treaty obligations on the Crown in respect of this deal. I heard somebody speaking earlier about the Crown’s recognition of the Treaty as being cast in concrete when it comes to water. That is a wonderful statement. What happens? The New Zealand Maori Council says: “Right let’s test that commitment. Let’s take it to the Waitangi Tribunal and see what the Maori interest is.” What does this Government do? It opposes the New Zealand Maori Council even getting a hearing. This ain’t got nothing to do with the National Party supporting Maori interests in water or recognising Maori interests in water or anything of the sort. It is about betraying that Maori interest in the water. 
Mihi atu ki taku tuahine e nohonoho nei ki a Nanaia. 
[ 
I acknowledge my sister colleague seated here Nanaia. 
] 
Waikato-Tainui seem to have got themselves a nice private deal so congratulations to them. But if this is supposed to be for everybody how come other Maori did not get it? And why did Tainui get it and Tuwharetoa get a kick in the teeth? This is a sad piece of legislation. This has nothing at all to do with recognising the rights of Maori or recognising the rights of the Treaty. I want to say that Mana opposes this Mixed Ownership Model Bill in its entirety today tomorrow and ever after. Kia ora tatou. 
CLARE CURRAN (Labour—Dunedin South) 
: 
 This is just typical of this Government: to say one thing and do another to get up here and make soothing noises to reassure us about the Mixed Ownership Model Bill and say everything will be all right and then do another thing. Deceit—that is what it is all about. Deceit. 
My colleague Phil Goff in the Committee last night talked about the deceit of this Government and I want to give this Government a history lesson of its own tonight about downright deceit. It has already practised it on previous legislation and it is going to practise it on this piece of legislation. I am referring to “Mr Smooth” the previous Minister in the chair the Minister for State Owned Enterprises who got up and reassured the Committee tonight about the 10 percent cap on shares and that serious terrible sanctions are going to be applied if anyone breaches them. In effect they are being set up to breach them and if they do breach them they will get away with it. If they do not get away with it the Government will provide a waiver which is what it has done in previous legislation. 
I want to speak tonight to Supplementary Order Paper 50 in my name which would amend Part 2. I also want to show that you just cannot trust this Government. But before I do I would just like to point out that today Otago residents are feeling the impact of electricity price rises as the winter temperatures plummet. Today yesterday the day before and for at least a couple of weeks now there have been freezing temperatures in Otago. It has been estimated that an average-sized household could face increases of $58—at least $58—for the period from June to August taking the price for those 3 months to $779 for an average household. That is a very conservative estimate because so many households in Otago face costs of around $400 to $450 a month for their electricity bill. Any price rise on top of that will make things difficult. And this is before the sale of the assets. As we have heard post the sales the average charges are going to increase. They are going to increase and people simply cannot afford it. Those kinds of price rises and those kinds of costs on the average family are just simply not sustainable and as every member in this Committee knows as every resident in Otago knows and as every household in this country knows the price of electricity is going to go up following the sale of these energy companies. 
I am speaking to clause 16 in Part 2. Section 45T in clause 16 addresses the effect of exceeding a 10 percent limit on shares in the sold-off energy companies. It sets out the effect of a person exceeding the 10 percent cap. We have heard that the person who breaches the cap will have to comply with any written notice from the company to ensure that that 10 percent limit is not exceeded that they will have to remedy it within 60 days and that they may have their voting rights and their shares taken away should they exceed it. Such terrible sanctions they are! But where is the compliance on this? Where are the teeth? This is a toothless piece of legislation. It is a joke. It is cloud-cuckoo-land. There is no serious penalty in this legislation. 
This time last year this House was debating a piece of legislation. It was the Telecommunications (TSO Broadband and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. It was a serious piece of legislation. In that legislation there were significant financial penalties. The Labour Party at the time argued that those financial penalties did not go far enough. We did manage to get them increased from $5 million up to $10 million per breach of the law and we had to argue pretty strongly for that. But that was $10 million—$10 million—for a breach of that legislation by Telecom essentially because the legislation enabled Telecom to be handed $1 billion more or less to roll out ultra-fast broadband. But if Telecom breached the key provisions in the legislation it was going to be handed down a $10 million penalty. 
Supplementary Order Paper 50 in my name requires that there be a $1 million fine—one-tenth of $10 million—if the 10 percent cap is exceeded. One million dollars. I do not think that is unreasonable. Do other members of the Committee think that is unreasonable? It is not unreasonable compared with another piece of legislation that was essentially around another important policy that this Government was pushing out. The fine was $10 million for breaching it. So a $1 million penalty is not unreasonable. If you do not have a financial sanction you do not have a sanction that is going to dissuade people from breaking it. So that is one point I would like to make. 
The second point is that this Government cannot be trusted to follow through on this part of the bill around the 10 percent cap and I would like to tell you why. In early May just this year the Associate Minister of Finance Steven Joyce defended the Crown’s decision to waive the 10 percent Kiwi share restriction for AMP Capital Investors following the Australian-owned company’s decision to lift its stake in Telecom’s spin-off Chorus to 15 percent. This was to 15 percent from the 10 percent cap that was on the Kiwi share. I challenge the Minister in the chair tonight the Minister for Building and Construction to get up and tell us that he will give a guarantee on behalf of his Government that there will be no waivers for the AMPs of the world that come to the Government and put up a good case to lift their 10 percent stake. 
I think Mr Goff in the Chamber last night demonstrated how easy it would be for four or five foreign-owned companies to take that 49 percent. Only one of them would have to come to the Government and put up a case for putting a waiver out so that the company could buy some of those shares from the mums and dads and lift its share to 15 percent. So I challenge this Government to give a guarantee because Steven Joyce in this Chamber this time last year gave this House a guarantee that there would be no breach of the Kiwi share—there would be no breach of the Kiwi share. And what did he do? In May this year it was breached and it went to 15 percent. So how can we and how can the public of New Zealand be reassured that that will not happen with the Mixed Ownership Model Bill and with the sale of our assets? How can we be reassured that the so-called mum and dad shares that are bought up cannot be bought by a company outside of this country or even inside of this country and that a special case cannot be made to the Government whereby the company can actually lift its holding to 15 percent? As I said I challenge the Minister in the chair tonight to get up and give us a guarantee because we have seen it happen under previous legislation and I suspect we will see it happen under this legislation. 
Labour argued and we have put up Supplementary Order Paper 49 in Clayton Cosgrove’s name to keep that cap at 1 percent. That would be a much more sensible thing to do. That would provide much more reassurance for the people of New Zealand that this Government is serious about not allowing outside interests to gain more of a foothold and about allowing and encouraging the so-called mum and dad investors to actually buy those shares. This Government appears not to be listening to that. When we argued for a 5 percent cap in the Finance and Expenditure Committee Government members certainly did not listen. So we know that it looks as if it is going to be 10 percent and it could be 15 percent and if it is 15 percent then we are going to see outside companies gaining more and more of a foothold in our energy assets. 
CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) 
: 
 I would like to talk about Part 2 and this is my first chance to go on the record. I am really pleased to have this opportunity— 
Hone Harawira 
: No testosterone now. 
CATHERINE DELAHUNTY 
: No I will get in touch with my feminine side for the benefit of the Committee and speak in a delicate tone. My question is: do Part 2 and the bill give all our citizens more power to ensure our collective future? No they do not. Does the bill give everyone a sense of honouring our parents’ efforts to create assets? No it does not. Does the bill give us confidence that our power bills will be safe? Not at all. Also does the bill honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi? No it does not. I would like to agree with the speech of Hone Harawira about the attack on te Tiriti in this bill. 
Let us look at new section 45Q in clause 16 “The Treaty of Waitangi (Te Tiriti o Waitangi)”. I find subsection (2) very interesting: “For the avoidance of doubt”. So just in case anybody thought this nation was actually serious about Te Tiriti o Waitangi just in case we actually thought we meant it just in case all these MPs who trot off to Waitangi every year pretending to honour te Tiriti just in case we thought that the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was actually a serious issue for this Parliament just in case the Government said it was fine to raise the tino rangatiratanga flag because it meant something—let us test that just in case. And what it comes down to is section 45Q(2): “For the avoidance of doubt subsection (1) does not apply to persons other than the Crown.” If that is not a betrayal of te Tiriti I do not know what is. It happened before when the assets were sold and it is happening again. Some of us—me in particular—are getting older. We remember what happened in the 1980s. We have not forgotten Roger Douglas. He is much missed in this House by some but not by me. What we are finding is a repeat of history that is very very disappointing for the New Zealand public. 
What I want to talk about is Te Tiriti o Waitangi which is an obligation of Pakeha and tauiwi katoa not just of Maori. So it is not just the Maori MPs who should be standing up and saying “Shame on this bill!”; it is the Pakeha MPs because we are the beneficiaries of te Tiriti and we have an obligation to stand up for it being implemented in full not ripped off by this legislation. 
But let us get on to the favourite expression: “mum and dad”. If we were in the 21st century—which this bill definitely is not; it is a repeat of the 1980s and 1990s—we would not be talking about mum and dad. We might be talking about mum and mum or dad and dad. We might be talking about mum as a solo parent. We might be talking whanau whanaunga or hapu. We might be talking about aiga because we no longer live in the nuclear family people. We live in a vastly diverse world where families who will not be buying these shares because they cannot afford them are actually facing real challenges. 
What this bill highlights is the ideological divide between people who think that we are shareholders who want to have dividends and profit and people who think we are citizens who believe we belong to a nation. So which one do we favour? Obviously the Greens stand for the concept of citizenship. We stand for the idea that buying shares and making a profit as individuals is less important than the actual collective well-being and the ability to plan based on assets owned by us that we do not want to give away. It is very interesting this whole mum and dad kaupapa. 
I went out on the streets and I have met some fantastic people on the streets of Aotearoa in the last few weeks and months. It has been really awesome and some of them are mums and dads some of them are mums and mums and some of them are grandparents. All of them are lining up to sign the petition because they do not believe a word of this bill. They are not convinced by a word of this and what is more they are insulted by the idea that we have amnesia that we cannot remember what happened that we have forgotten that we had to buy back the railways that we have forgotten that we can actually have schools and hospitals without selling our assets and that nobody if they are a decent budgeter sells the roof of the house while they are in hard times. They keep the house then they build upon it and they make sure they stay dry in the interim. Instead we are going to sell off these things. Once they are gone they are gone and then who gets to buy them back? The taxpayer as usual. The mums and dads dads and mums and grandparents on the streets of Aotearoa did not say: “Oh I wish I could buy a share. Oh I am so excited.” They said: “What is it going to do to my power bill?” and “How dare these people do this in our name?” and “How dare they say they know how to run an economy in our name because this is just a joke.” 
I want to tell the story of one particular mother because I think the human story is important. This week I got a letter from Christchurch and it was from a sole parent. She is an unusual sole parent. She has a son in his 30s and he is an intellectually disabled and often violent young man cared for by his mother at home. She said to me with regard to power increases: “We have no oven we have no fridge we have no phone and I can’t pay the power bill now.” I do not know how I am going to look this person in the eye and say: “Well I was part of a Parliament that sold off the assets so that your power bill will go up.” She already is not surviving. I wonder whether this Committee can try to imagine what it is like to be a mother who is raising a child who will not grow up and is potentially violent and who is cold and who has no oven or fridge or phone in this winter and we are selling her assets not because she asked us to but because that is what the Government has decided is its way out of paying for tax cuts for the wealthy which is something this woman will never be. What is more she will never be buying a share. She does not have a share in your vision of the world. Her share as a citizen is through the Government owning assets that are going to provide a health and education system that should support her. I am ashamed to see the struggle that she lives in on a daily basis and now we are going to make it worse. That is actually one of the most powerful reasons for standing up against this bill—it is the human reality. Te Tiriti reality the human reality is that the Parliament does not have the right to destroy something that has been given to us to talk about and that belongs to the citizens of Aotearoa. 
I will say that these emperors are naked and it is not a pretty sight. I believe that many people in Aotearoa can see that you are naked and it is certainly not something that they are enjoying seeing because that nakedness is the nakedness of an ideology that has failed in the past and will fail again. Basically those people on the streets of Tauranga of Hauraki and of Christchurch are signing the petition and lining up to sign it—[ 
Interruption 
] Thank goodness Maurice Williamson the Minister in the chair is not naked. Those people are actually doing a fantastic job of expressing their view but unfortunately they are not being listened to. Of course the National members will not take calls on this. Of course they will not because as a flagship policy they are not prepared to defend it they do not know how to defend it and they do not even think they have to defend it. But the day will come—the day of reckoning. As a Cassandra on the walls of Troy I tell you now that the day will come. It does not take a prophetess to tell you the consequences of not listening to people. So as a Cassandra I am saying to you that there are people out there watching the Government and listening to the Government’s extremely thin rhetoric on Part 2. We need to stand up now with those people and support the ownership of our assets. It is a pretty fundamental thing that this country should have something that belongs to all people not just shares that belong to people who can afford to buy them. 
Maybe I am mixing with the wrong crowd. Maybe I should make sure I mix only with the private school crowd or maybe I should just stop going out on the street and talking to people but actually there are many citizens from every level of the economy who understand how to manage a budget and what they are seeing is that this Budget is not being managed properly. If you have to sell the roof off the house you have actually got nothing. 
I applaud all the people who have made the very complex technical analysis of this bill. I think Russel Norman has done a great job on economics. I heard a really good speech yesterday by Charles Chauvel. I have heard speeches by many people who have covered ground that I do not want to cover. But as a person working at a grassroots community level and as a woman who has been a community worker and advocate for beneficiaries I am really ashamed that this ridiculous façade is going on in this Chamber. This debacle is going on and the Government is not even trying to defend it. I can understand why it is not because there is really nothing to say except: “We want to sell the assets.” The idea that the Mixed Ownership Model Bill is somehow different from selling 100 percent of the assets is all about smoke and mirrors and it is all about naked emperors. So for goodness’ sake naked emperors go and have a look in the mirror. It will not be a pretty sight but you might learn something. Behind your shoulder you will see the people of this country lining up—they are lining up—to tell you that we do not want to sell our assets and that the 49 percent is just a façade that will never work. 
Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram) 
: 
 I am very happy to take a call on the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. Specifically I want to talk to clause 16 and address some of the rhetoric we have heard in this Chamber over the last couple of days and the sanctimony we have been hearing—that it is OK to sell assets because someone else has done it before. I do not even want to get started about where that logic could take us. It pretty much leaves it wide open. Anybody could do anything because everything has been done before. 
What we are hearing is the sanctimony from members opposite that somehow what they are doing is offering protection and that our assets will not all be sold. But the bit that I love the most—the kernel I love the most—in this sanctimony that has been flowing from the other side is: “It is OK for us to sell them because we told people first.” Somehow it is OK because they went out and told people. Well do you know what? Going out and telling someone you are going to do them over and then doing it does not make it any better. Selling assets is wrong always has been always will be and it does not matter what you tell them. 
Maggie Barry 
: You’ve got amnesia. 
Dr MEGAN WOODS 
: I have no amnesia “Queen Margaret”. I will tell you about growing up on the streets of Sydenham in the 1980s and the fact that asset sales are very much part of my political whakapapa. 
Let us have a look at the protections—the so-called protections—that have been put in place under clause 16. What we have is a Government that is running scared. What it has said is that it is going to protect these assets because we are going to retain 51 percent ownership of them and it has put these protections around them. 
Let us think about the technicalities of these protections. It is 51 percent of voting shares. This offers no protection against asset stripping. What will still be allowed is the fact that the assets of the companies can be sold. If members opposite want to traverse the history of asset sales in this country I am more than happy to oblige and have a discussion about what National did in the 1990s have a look at what asset stripping did to some of this nation’s assets and talk about the shame that members opposite should feel. They should hardly sit there with the sanctimony and the crowing that we are hearing. Let us have a look at this much-lauded clause 16 about the restriction on the reduction of the Crown’s holdings. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Is the member going to buy them back? No. 
Dr MEGAN WOODS 
: We do not want to sell them. That is what we are doing here. What we have is a clause that prohibits a shareholding Minister from disposing of shares in the Minister’s name or permitting the issue or allotment of shares or securities in a mixed-ownership model company if doing so would result in the Crown owning less than 51 percent. But ladies and gentlemen this does nothing to protect the very assets that those companies hold. 
Once a mixed-ownership model company has had its shares sold to private investors the assets of that company are very much at risk. Pressure can be put on the company to sell the assets to meet the obligation to return a profit. The assets that these companies own are not guaranteed from being flogged off. It is disingenuous of members opposite to sit here and say that New Zealanders are going to retain a majority shareholding in these companies because it is simply not true. The dams can be sold. The assets of all of our power companies that are being put on the block by members opposite are very much at risk because the bill that this Government has brought to this House offers absolutely no protection against asset stripping. 
We know bitterly from history that members opposite belong to a party that will do nothing to protect against asset stripping. They have shown it once and they will show it again. When Treasury officials came to the Finance and Expenditure Committee to talk about this they confirmed to the members of that select committee that there was no mechanism in this bill to prevent asset stripping. Likewise Solid Energy one of the companies on the block confirmed that under this legislation before the House privatisation would allow it to sell subsidiaries under partial privatisation. 
So I have an amendment that addresses this. I have an amendment to provide that companies cannot sell off individual assets like dams and wind farms to private companies in order to asset strip or defeat the purpose of the 51 percent ownership clause. Instead a mixed-ownership model company would be required to publicly notify that it intends to sell an asset and then must wait for the sale to be approved by the Governor-General by Order in Council. If members opposite really do not want to make a raid on the assets of this country they will vote in favour of this amendment. There is no reason not to—not unless they are lining up to absolutely wholesale flog off the assets. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Say something new. 
Dr MEGAN WOODS 
: OK Mr Brownlee I will say something new. I am going to talk about Tranz Rail. I am going to talk about Tranz Rail and “back to the future”. I am going to look at the shameless asset stripping that happened when National was last in Government in 1993 when the Bolger Government sold Tranz Rail far too cheaply to a consortium of Wisconsin Central Transportation Berkshire Partners and Fay Richwhite. This was privatised— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Talk about the bill. 
Dr MEGAN WOODS 
: I am talking about the bill. I am talking about an amendment that will prevent that from happening again. If you do not want to flog off the assets you should vote for it Mr Brownlee. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! 
Dr MEGAN WOODS 
: Sorry; they should vote for it. So what happened? The assets of Tranz Rail were sold off because there was no mechanism to prevent it just as there is no mechanism in this present bill to prevent the sale of assets belonging to the 51 percent - owned company. There is no mechanism in here. It has been confirmed by Treasury officials at the select committee that that mechanism is not present in the bill. The amendment I am putting forward would put such a mechanism in place and would protect the very assets that have been built up by generations of New Zealanders—the dams that New Zealanders have toiled away at and did not build just for members opposite to flog off to the lowest bidder. 
The reason why the pressure will be put on these companies to sell these assets is to return a profit. These are companies that are now going to be covered off by the Companies Act not the State-Owned Enterprises Act. They are compelled to operate with one purpose and that is to return a profit to the shareholders. So there need to be these mechanisms to protect against that in this bill and that is what this amendment is giving.  
What this bill is doing is nothing short of looting. It is a raid on the assets of hard-working New Zealanders who have built these up over generations. We have seen what members opposite and the party opposite did in the dark days of asset sales. We have seen the state that Tranz Rail was in. We have seen the investment that needed to be put in to build it back up. There is nothing that they will do to stop the asset stripping that will happen there.  
The profits of Tranz Rail dropped dramatically from 1999 to 2000. What had to happen when the Clark Labour Government came to bring it back was there had to be a huge infrastructural investment because there was no ability for Tranz Rail to invest in that company. So if members opposite really do believe in a 51 percent stake for New Zealanders if members opposite really do believe that and it is more than empty rhetoric and they are not just planning an ideological raid on our assets they will vote for this amendment and they will put in place the mechanism that will stop the asset stripping. They will put in place the mechanism that will allow New Zealanders to at the very least retain a 51 percent shareholding. You should not be selling them at all but if you are going to sell them then you should at the very least protect against that. 
MAGGIE BARRY (National—North Shore) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
BRENDAN HORAN (NZ First) 
: 
 I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to oppose this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. Let us look at five facts. First the five energy-generating State-owned enterprises raised $868 million in dividends last year. That is a return of 16.2 percent in the last 10 years and by comparison the Government could borrow at a rate of 3.66 percent per annum. The Government has said that the proceeds from the asset sales will go towards investing in new infrastructure. We heard that today. Well despite this the Government plans to spend $150 million from the Future Investment Fund on doing up New Zealand House in London. 
There is also a loophole in this legislation that means that the Government can sell more than 49 percent of these shares in these State-owned enterprises given that the 10 percent and 51 percent restrictions should be calculated on the basis of voting rights rather than the total percentage of all securities. Growing rates of poverty show that the mum and dad investors are having a hard enough time putting food on the table let alone investing in companies that they already own.  
Earlier today we heard some members from that side of the Chamber speaking about how Winston Peters had sold Auckland International Airport shares. Let us bring a little bit of honesty to that argument. First of all New Zealand First was in coalition with the National Government. It was a National Government idea to sell those Auckland International Airport shares. National was going to sell them to anybody but New Zealand First put in there—and Winston Peters made sure that there was—a clause that those shares went only to New Zealanders. After doing that the Rt Hon Winston Peters reflected and realised it was wrong and said so at the time. Mr Brownlee would remember that.  
What happened when that Government over there tried to sell Wellington International Airport? A man of infinite character honesty and integrity who was Deputy Prime Minister said: “No. I will have nothing to do with selling these Wellington Airport shares.” and walked. That was the coalition gone. It is too bad that the Hon Tau Henare is not here. If he is watching TV if he could get out of his barber’s chair—I apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: I apologise for that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I know you are apologising. I know what you are apologising for. There have been too many references to members who are not present and we must make sure we do not comment on the absence of members from the Chamber. 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: Thank you Mr Chair. [ 
Interruption 
] It is very hard for those members over there to learn anything with their lips flapping. Perhaps if the Hon Gerry Brownlee would stop his lips flapping then he would be doing a bit more for the people of Christchurch because he would hear what is really happening there. But as I was saying—before I was rudely interrupted—there is a man Winston Peters who left the deputy leadership on principle. Now there is an opportunity for those members over there to walk across the floor because they know that this is wrong for New Zealand. We have heard it before in their unconvincing speeches. 
Let us talk about the Hon Mr Dunne who campaigned on the preciousness of our water. We heard about that earlier today. And yet here he is trying to sell our water. One of the great things about New Zealand is our water.  
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: You can talk rubbish but you can’t tell lies. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! Do not say that.  
BRENDAN HORAN 
: The reason why our water is so precious is because it carries the wairua of New Zealand. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The Leader of the House—who is the Leader of the House and should know better—used an unparliamentary term. I waited for a few moments to see whether you would admonish him. But I think you are very well aware that that term and accusation of a member cannot be used. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Speaker’s ruling 42/2 says that you cannot say the word “lie”. From now on in I want to keep it seemly. It is a robust debate. I did warn the member that he could not say that and I do not want to hear that again. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. With respect—and thank you for your ruling—as I understand it it is the normal practice if that word is used that the member withdraws and apologises especially somebody as eminent and powerful as the Leader of the House. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: It is my view and I make the decision. I have ruled that he will not do it again. I am asking Brendan Horan to complete his speech. That is the end of the matter. 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: This water contains the wairua of New Zealand. It is the blood and bones of our ancestors that has leached through the soil into the waterways. How could this Government sell our wairua—our soul? That is why the Maori members on that side of the Chamber are not standing up and giving convincing speeches. 
Yesterday I drew your attention—and the media’s attention—to Genesis and the Genesis chair Ms Shipley. Last year just before the Budget remember that Genesis purchased two power stations at Tekapo.  
SUE MORONEY (Labour) 
: 
 Thank you for the opportunity to put on record the opposition from the people of the Waikato to this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. It may have escaped some people’s attention but most of these resources that are being put up on the block actually come from the Waikato region. We have got dams up and down the Waikato River. We have got the Huntly power station. We have got the coalmines of the Huntly region. We have got the geothermal fields of the Wairakei area. So for the region that I come from actually it is a bit personal. It is a bit personal because this bill disproportionately affects the Waikato region. None of those Waikato MPs for the Government have had the courage to put on record the opposition of the vast majority of people in the Waikato to having their State assets flogged off from underneath them.  
For us in the Waikato it is not just an issue of why this is so fundamentally wrong economically but also because this actually makes up our geography. These are many of the landmarks of our region. Yes clause 16 I think is the part that the Waikato people object to most strongly. This is the part— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! Interjections should be related to the speech and not be cross-interjections that have got nothing to do with the debate. I want to hear what this speaker is saying. I ask you to tone it down. 
SUE MORONEY 
: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I am talking about the vast majority of the people of the Waikato and why they oppose Part 2 of this bill in particular. The thing that worries Waikato people the most is that many of our landmarks could be sold into foreign ownership. As I was saying for the rest of the country this is economic madness but for us in the Waikato this is actually deeply personal because it is many of our families who actually built those dams. It is many of our families who built the Huntly power station. So it is about the sweat of our ancestors who actually created these State assets and yes we all own them. It is not that Government’s right to sell from underneath the feet of the people of the Waikato those assets into foreign ownership. 
I do want to speak in favour of two Supplementary Order Papers being put forward one in the name of Phil Goff and the other in the name of Kris Faafoi. Those two amendments to clause 16 in Part 2 of this bill actually would limit the ownership to New Zealand residents. They would do it in this way. Supplementary Order Paper 52 from Phil Goff would actually limit the ownership to New Zealand tax residents. I think that is only fair. That would give the people of the Waikato some comfort that our landmarks are not going to end up in majority foreign ownership. Then there is Supplementary Order Paper 51 from Kris Faafoi which takes a slightly different approach.  
Kris Faafoi 
: That’s a very good amendment. 
SUE MORONEY 
: It is a very good amendment. The people of the Waikato would also gain comfort from this because Kris Faafoi’s amendment would limit ownership to New Zealand passport holders. There again we would know that the Karapiro dam that we drive across the Atiamuri dam and all of those dams up and down the Waikato actually would remain in New Zealand ownership and I think that is deeply personal for the people of the Waikato. 
I also want to talk about the lunacy of what this part does around the Treaty of Waitangi commitments. What are we going to do in the Waikato? The Waikato River— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Oh yeah that’s right. I remember the foreshore and seabed. Yeah that’s right. 
SUE MORONEY 
: Well Tau Henare might like to listen to this. The Waikato River is co-managed. It is co-managed between Tainui and Environment Waikato—a fantastic model. It was actually brought about by Labour but good on the current Government for keeping it going. But here is the problem: what are we going to do about only 51 percent of the dams up and down the Waikato River having the Treaty of Waitangi obligations applying to them? What are we going to do? Are we going to say that when it comes to opening up the floodgates and putting water down the Waikato River from the Karapiro dam we are going to consult Maori but if it is the Atiamuri dam we are not going to consult Maori? Is that what it is going to mean? 
I want members opposite—in fact I ask the Minister in the chair the Hon Maurice Williamson to get up to explain exactly how this is going to shake down. If that State-owned enterprise is split and if only 51 percent of those dams have Treaty of Waitangi obligations attached to them and the other 49 percent do not how literally are we going to manage that when it comes to the water resource management when it comes to actually consulting Maori and when it comes— 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 Well there you have it. National members do not like it. They do not like it and they want to shut it down. They want to end the debate because it is not going well for them. It is not going well for them because they know that New Zealanders do not support this piece of legislation the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. New Zealanders know that we inherited these assets from those who came before us and this Government has no respect for that whatsoever. It is ready to hock them off. Forget about future generations. Forget about leaving anything for them. Just sell it—just sell it. If it cannot cut it it wants to sell it. That is what this Government is all about. Those members do not want to talk about it any more so now they are trying to shut the debate down. It is no wonder they do not want to talk about it because the Mixed Ownership Model Bill is riddled with holes. 
I want to talk in particular about new section 3C inserted by clause 15. This is an incredibly important section because it is a provision that under normal circumstances would never get through this House. It would never get through this House because this is what is known as a “Henry VIII” clause. It is a “Henry VIII” clause in the sense that it gives the Government without reference to Parliament the ability to change the law. It gives the Government by Order in Council the ability to change the law without reference to Parliament. We call it a “Henry VIII” clause because in the Proclamation by the Crown Act of 1539 Henry VIII effectively gave himself the power to do just that—to basically make laws by a proclamation and without any reference to Parliament. These days that is frowned upon. These days we think it is a good idea that where the law is going to be changed the Parliament should debate and vote on that. This provision here gives the Government the ability to change this legislation once it is passed without coming back to the Parliament to have that approved. It is a constitutional outrage. It is wrong. It is absolutely wrong.  
In fact this Parliament has recommended against such clauses. The Regulations Review Committee in this Parliament was set up at least in part to prevent those types of mechanisms being put in place. Normally the Regulations Review Committee would produce a recommendation against this. Of course that may well have happened had this bill not had a truncated select committee process. Had the Government not used its majority on the Finance and Expenditure Committee to report it back 5 weeks early perhaps the Regulations Review Committee would have had a chance to do its job. It could have highlighted to the Government the fact that this provision is a “Henry VIII” provision and it is not something that the Parliament should be passing.  
This section new section 3C particularly subsection (2)(a) and (b) allows the Government by Order in Council to amend the Ombudsmen Act and the Income Tax Act without those amendments going to Parliament. That is absolutely outrageous. The Ombudsmen Act is actually quite an important part of our constitutional framework. It is not just a regular law; it is actually part of our constitutional framework the Ombudsmen Act. It is a constitutional outrage. I have already said that. Listen up listen up. This provision gives the Government by Order in Council the ability to amend the Ombudsmen Act 1975. Orders in Council without reference to Parliament are not designed to amend primary legislation. They are not designed to amend primary legislation.  
Gerry Brownlee needs a lesson in how the New Zealand constitution works. It is very concerning to learn that the Leader of the House the guy responsible for overseeing how Parliament works does not understand that the Government should not change legislation without bringing those amendments to Parliament debating them and having them voted upon. Gerry Brownlee seems to think it is OK. Well it is probably not surprising because this is the guy who brought a bill to Parliament that basically made him the tsar of Christchurch with the ability to change just about every law in the land without it having to come back to this Parliament. This provision is wrong and it should not be allowed to stand. In fact I have a few amendments that I intend to table on this particular provision to allow us to examine that more fully.  
I want to turn now to Supplementary Order Paper 64 in my name. It has been on the Table for some time so members should have made themselves familiar with it. It is a very good Supplementary Order Paper. By way of background first of all under the recommendation of the select committee if a vote has been passed by one of these new mixed-ownership model companies whilst somebody holds more than 10 percent of the shares under this legislation being proposed by the Government if the company could mount a case that it was unaware that someone held more than 10 percent of the shares then that resolution would continue to take effect. What my amendment does is that it does still allow that to happen but for situations where a person breaches the 10 percent cap and where the vote was close and it would have made a material difference to the outcome if that person had not held the 10 percent this amendment basically says that the resolution passed by the company should not stand. So it is a very important safeguard. I hope the Government will vote in favour of it.  
It is in no way a frivolous amendment. In fact it is quite an important amendment because it basically says that if someone knowingly goes out and buys more than 10 percent of the company to exercise more than 10 percent of the voting rights and then uses those voting rights so that some resolution is passed that would not have been passed had they not breached the 10 percent cap that should not be allowed to stand and this amendment guarantees that it would not be allowed to stand. So I hope the Government will vote in favour of this amendment because it is a very sensible and practical amendment.  
The two major issues that I have talked about are the “Henry VIII” provision under section 3C in clause 15—I hope the Government will take that on board and support some of the amendments that I intend to put forward to that—and I hope it will support my Supplementary Order Paper 64 which will amend clause 16 with regard to the 10 percent voting rule because I think those are very very important.  
Just one final thing. To talk a little bit more about section 3C there is debate around whether or not the Government should able to declare these companies to be State-owned enterprises again if it decides not to sell them. In doing so in saying that it is not going to sell them and is going to make them State-owned enterprises again— 
Hon Member 
: The flip-flop clause! 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: —the flip-flop clause; it is the back-out clause because it knows it is on a hiding to nothing with this because the public just does not like it—this is the back-down clause— 
Hon Member 
: Hekia Parata clause. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: —otherwise known as the Hekia Parata clause; that is right—it is designed to allow it to do that. If it decides to keep 100 percent of those companies it can make them State-owned enterprises again and make them subject without reference to Parliament to the Ombudsmen Act the Official Information Act and so on. So the question is that if by keeping 100 percent of them the Government thinks it is acceptable to make them subject to the Ombudsmen Act the Official Information Act and so on why would it not do that if it is going to retain 51 percent of them? What is different between owning 51 percent of the company and owning 100 percent of the company? Why would it be that with 100 percent ownership it should be under the Official Information Act and the Ombudsmen Act but under 51 percent ownership it should not be subject to those mechanisms? There is actually no justification for that. In fact if the Crown is going to own a 51 percent stake in these companies they should be subject to the Official Information Act and the Ombudsmen Act. They should be subject to Parliamentary scrutiny as fully owned Crown companies are and State-owned enterprises are because it is ultimately the taxpayer’s money that is involved in the shareholding here. It is taxpayers’ money so they should be subject to that. Unfortunately under this section 3C that the Government has put forward the Government could make these companies that are becoming mixed-ownership model companies subject to those pieces of legislation only if it retained a 100 percent shareholding in them. If we take for example Air New Zealand the Government does not own a 100 percent shareholding but it owns the vast majority of shares because it was sold off and it collapsed and the Government had to buy it back. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: What Government did that? 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: It was the Labour Government that did that Mr Cosgrove and it was a very sensible decision by the Labour Government. Because of the failed privatisation of Air New Zealand we were faced with a choice between having no national airline at all and the Government buying it back. So the then Labour Government decided that it should be purchased back because it was important that New Zealand had a national airline. The difference between that and this bill of course is that these things are bolted down. The hydro dams and the gas plants are bolted down. It would be a very very difficult situation if these companies collapsed that the Government would find itself in. I strongly oppose this legislation. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I rise to speak on this bill before the Committee the Mixed Ownership Model Bill which is the partial privatisation of the people’s assets by this National Government. I wish to speak to a few particular aspects of this bill and I want to start with the amendment that the Government is moving around protecting—or apparently protecting—the 51 percent ownership limits. That is it is moving an amendment so that the Government needs to maintain 51 percent not only of the voting shares but of all categories of shares. 
On the one hand this is a bit of a victory in the sense that it is forcing the Government on to the back foot on this issue. Originally what the Government wanted to do was maintain 51 percent of the voting shares only but then allow more of the non-voting shares to be sold off. It will not be able to do that any more so that is progress. However what it points to is one of the fundamental problems with this bill which is about access to capital. Because these mixed-ownership model companies which are established by Part 2 could originally as the bill was have accessed more capital by issuing non-voting shares and the Crown would not necessarily have bought those non-voting shares— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The time has come for the dinner break. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN 
: As I was saying before the break I was discussing the Government’s amendment that would prevent the Government from selling more than 49 percent of all the share types not just the voting shares and the significance of that for the companies. What this means is that there is now fundamentally no difference in terms of access to capital between the mixed-ownership model companies and the State-owned enterprises. Previously before this amendment came in the mixed-ownership model companies had the ability to issue non-voting shares in order to raise capital even if the proportion of non-voting shares in private owners went above 49 percent. That gave them a mechanism to raise capital via that method. Once this amendment goes through assuming that it will the mixed-ownership model companies will no longer have that access to that capital. In fact they will totally require the Crown to buy 51 percent of all the shares that they issue whether those shares are voting shares or non-voting shares in order for the Crown to maintain its 51 percent ownership of all the shares—voting and non-voting. 
There is no way that the Government is going to provide these electricity companies with half of all their new capital needs—it is just not going to do it. The Government has repeatedly said that it has no capital to spare it does not want to provide capital to these companies and it does not want to provide capital to any companies. So from the point of view of the companies their only option to raise capital will be through debt instruments—that is they will issue bonds. They will not be able to issue new shares because the Government will basically block it from happening. So their only way to get more capital is to issue bonds or debt instruments. That is exactly what they can do now. They do not need to be converted into mixed-ownership model companies in order to raise capital through issuing debt instruments. The only new opportunity that they are provided in order to raise capital in becoming mixed-ownership model companies is that they could issue new equity instruments. But because the Government will not be willing to fork over new capital to buy the necessary 51 percent of all the shares that these companies may issue there is no way the Government will allow them to do that. It fundamentally undermines the basic rationale of the entire reason that the Government started down this path.  
The next issue I want to talk about is the issue of appropriations. The Government has been floating in this House and elsewhere the idea that it will be issuing bonus shares if you like. It is a loyalty programme. What this means is that if you purchase 15 shares and you keep them for a certain amount of time then you will be given a bonus share a 16th share for free. The bonus share does not come for free from the point of view of the seller of the asset. From the point of view of the seller of the asset they are basically giving away money. The Crown does not have the legal ability to give away money without getting an appropriation from this Parliament. Under the Constitution Act— 
Gareth Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I wish to apologise to the member for interrupting but the Standing Orders very clearly say that interjections must be related to the debate. I find it highly disrespectful what is happening between the Minister and Clayton Cosgrove. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I do not think the member is a Minister; I think he is a member. But the point is well made that there should not be interjections going backwards and forwards. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I apologise to my Green colleague and I apologise to you. I was assisting Mr Heatley with his addition. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: That is not a point of order and let me just say there will be no tolerance for that. If members are going to use points of order to make points that are not related to the debate or in regard to the order of the House they may not be in the Chamber. Let us have some decorum. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN 
: The important point here is that the free shares that the Government will be issuing are essentially an expense on the Government account. They do not come for free. Someone has to pay for them and the people who pay for them will be the Government itself. Under the Constitution Act you simply cannot make expenses on the Crown account without parliamentary authority. 
LOUISE UPSTON (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
KRIS FAAFOI (Labour—Mana) 
: 
 I will take a call on Part 2 of the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. This bill is part of what the Government calls the rolling maul of economic initiatives. But today we have had the ANZ bank say that our economy is in the danger zone. I just want to use another line out of that famous early 1980s movie  
Top Gun 
 in terms of concerns in this bill that we have: “This is … a target-rich environment” Part 2. It is a target-rich environment. 
Hon Member 
: Like a fish in a barrel. 
KRIS FAAFOI 
: It is. But I do want to look at one clause in particular and that is section 45S “10% limit on holdings by persons other than the Crown” in clause 16. I will read it for the benefit of those who might be listening: “(1) No person (other than the Crown) may have a relevant interest in securities that confer more than 10% of the voting rights of a mixed ownership model company (the 10 percent limit).” This is the passing effort of the National Party to try to ensure that some—not all—of the 49 percent of the shares that it plans to sell in this share float stay in New Zealand. 
I do need to—as the members across the Chamber have done ad nauseam during this debate—go back to some history. I will go back to 26 January 2011 when John Key gave a speech. There was a press release that came out with it and a point in that press release said: “New Zealand investors would have to be at the front of the queue for shareholdings and the Government would have to be confident of widespread and substantial New Zealand share ownership …”. These are the words out of that press release from John Key on 26 January 2011. As the press releases that come out of the ninth floor do on the odd occasion it came with a Q and A. There were some other points that were made: “Will New Zealanders own the shares that are issued?”. Mr Key in this press release said: “New Zealand investors will be given first priority in any issues. There is substantial capacity between the KiwiSaver funds other managed funds …” blah blah blah. The next question and answer are: “Will foreigners be able to buy shares? Majority government ownership means that control will always rest in New Zealand hands.” The press release says it will always rest in New Zealand hands. “If companies were listed on the NZX then private New Zealand owners would be able to sell and foreign investors could buy. However we expect that most New Zealand investors would be long term holders. This has been the experience of previous floats such as Contact Energy. It is therefore likely that foreign ownership would be limited.” 
Nowhere in this bill—nowhere in clause 16 of this bill—does it limit the size of foreign ownership. It might limit the size of a parcel of shares that you can hold to 10 percent but nowhere in this bill—and I am looking at clause 16—does it put into effect any of the words that Mr John Key the Prime Minister of this country said in his press release on 26 January 2011.  
So I want to have a look at a Supplementary Order Paper that has been put forward by our State-owned assets spokesperson my colleague in front of me Mr Clayton Cosgrove. It is Supplementary Order Paper 49 which would change section 45P(2) to— 
Hon Simon Bridges 
: This is just silly. 
KRIS FAAFOI 
: Mr Bridges might want to listen because it would change the amount of ownership from 10 percent to 1 percent. I would urge members right around the Chamber to back Supplementary Order Paper 49 from Clayton Cosgrove to ensure that as many of these shares as possible—and let me make it clear that we do not want these shares sold at all—stay in New Zealand hands. I would expect the member for Tauranga to try to meet the needs of his constituents to make sure that these shares stay in New Zealanders’ hands. 
There is another Supplementary Order Paper also in my name. 
Darien Fenton 
: An excellent Supplementary Order Paper. 
KRIS FAAFOI 
: An excellent Supplementary Order Paper—thank you very much Darien Fenton. It is Supplementary Order Paper 51 which would also look to amend clause 16 by inserting section 45Y which is titled “Kiwis at front of queue”. My Supplementary Order Paper 51 would restrict the sale of the shares in these State-owned enterprises to people who hold a current New Zealand passport. I am trying to put into effect in this bill what the Prime Minister promised but has not actually delivered in this bill. As we heard before the Prime Minister of this country said that the majority of the shares that will be floated would stay in New Zealand hands but has not effected this in the legislation that is before us in Part 2. If we are looking at those who currently hold New Zealand passports I can tell those at home that that would mean that 3225000 New Zealanders with passports at the moment would be eligible and only eligible to buy our shares in this share float. If you put that together with Mr Cosgrove’s Supplementary Order Paper and the fact that the maximum amount of shareholding you can have is 1 percent we would not concentrate a lot of the value of State-owned enterprises either overseas or with one individual holding too much power. I think in tangent those Supplementary Order Papers and a number of other Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward from this side of the Chamber to Part 2 would be very wise— 
Andrew Little 
: Very sensible. 
KRIS FAAFOI 
: —very sensible for this Committee to adopt. I also want to look at section 45T in clause 16. This is very interesting. It covers—[ 
Interruption 
] Thank you I was just going to get on to it; I saw you giving me the evils. Section 45T talks about the penalties of exceeding the 10 percent limit which is currently in this bill around section 45S. Section 45T(1)(a) (b) and (c) outlines the penalties if we did happen to go over the 10 percent limit. It gives those who transgress in this way 60 days I believe to make good but that would also give them 60 days to make a profit off those shares then hock them off and get back down to that 10 percent limit. In terms of section 45T we have some problems there and also with section 45T(1)(c). It says that for the person who contravenes that section they cannot “exercise or control voting rights that exceed the 10% limit.” That is actually common sense and we would support that. We do not look at making any amendment there. I believe there is an amendment to section 45T in the name of my colleague Clare Curran—45T? I will continue while my colleague tracks that down but I do believe there is a Supplementary Order Paper under Clare Curran’s name to make sure there is a penalty for anyone who exceeds that 10 percent limit. Clare Curran’s Supplementary Order Paper 50 would institute a financial penalty for breaching the ownership limit applied to the mixed-ownership model which at the moment stands at 10 percent. 
I did want to say that despite the musings from the Prime Minister a year and a half ago that he would protect assets from foreign ownership he has in no way—in no way—enacted this in the legislation before us. I think that is sad. I would ask this Committee that it adopt the Supplementary Order Papers from me from the Hon Clayton Cosgrove and from Clare Curran to make sure that if these assets are sold as many of them as possible can stay in New Zealand in the ownership of Kiwis—I do not want to use “mums and dads”—and the ownership of New Zealanders and that we do not let the limit of 10 percent stand as it is in section 45S at the moment. We need to make sure that the value is spread right around those Kiwis who want to own their shares—they do not want to; they prefer they would not be sold. If they are going to be sold then maybe we should look at my Supplementary Order Paper and restrict the sale of these shares to current holders of New Zealand passports. I think it is a common-sense measure to bring in such a Supplementary Order Paper and I would hope as I look around the Chamber this evening that members at least on this side of the Chamber would support my Supplementary Order Paper. Perhaps there may be a few members across the Chamber who can see that this is a common-sense measure too. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 It is a pleasure to take a quick call on Part 2 of the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. For those who are watching the Committee stage of the debate is of course where Parliament wrestles with the detail and where we get down and debate the individual clauses. 
Right at the start of amended section 2 of the Public Finance Act in clause 14 we have the definition of what a mixed-ownership model company is—and of course the key word is “company”. We turn to new section 45P in clause 16 and it says: “In this Act mixed ownership model company means a company listed in Schedule 5.” They are not State-owned enterprises. This is the end of those companies being State-owned enterprises under the State-Owned Enterprises Act. Does that matter? It sure does because a State-owned enterprise is required to be a good corporate citizen; a company is not. A State-owned enterprise is specifically required to be a good employer; a normal company outside standard labour law is not. A State-owned enterprise has full-scale Treaty obligations; these companies do not except to the extent that the half owned by the taxpayer subsidises the risk for the private party that owns the other half. That is the risk. Of course they are not State-owned enterprises so they do not have the reserve power of the Crown to direct them should they be in the situation where some grave danger to the public interest exists.  
When we move down we see the 51 percent control provisions. New section 45R(1) in clause 16 says that nothing should result in the Crown holding less than 51 percent of the voting rights. That word “voting” is very important because as others have pointed out there would be nothing under that provision to stop less than 51 percent of the equity rights being held. We acknowledge that there has been some discussion—desperate discussion—between the Government and Mr Dunne who has a very small fig leaf to cover his betrayal of the electorate. It is the amendment I understand according to media reports of the words “voting rights” to the word “equity”. It is about time because there are several ways that the equity can be diluted. One of them is non-voting shares which would have got around new section 45R(1).  
The next which was confirmed by Mr John Palmer Chairman of Air New Zealand to the Commerce Committee when we did Air New Zealand’s review is that subsidiaries can be created and can be divested or sold by the parent without transgressing this section. So a subsidiary could be sold off without breaking this section. That means that the supposed protection here of the 51 percent majority control is not worth the paper it is written on and that means that the Government has not upheld its election promise to New Zealanders that it will retain majority ownership and control because it is passing a law where it can quietly shuffle subsidiaries off the balance sheet.  
Why would the Government do that? Well a problem the Government has got is that a private partner—the 49 percent shareholder—could insist on their rights to the board to carry out an investment in a highly profitable future investment— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: This is the policy the member advocated. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: —giving the Government what we call the dilution problem Dr Smith—the dilution problem. The dilution problem is a new project that was highly profitable but which the Crown did not want to pursue because for example Mr English has a complete fetish about not spending any money. So he would not want to invest any capital off the Government’s balance sheet into even a highly profitable investment and the Government could be forced to and could be sued by the private party if it refused. That is why the Government is very concerned about having loose language here because it gives the Government one way of protecting itself from that dilution risk. 
New section 45S in clause 16 is the now famous provision about the 10 percent ownership cap. You know I was looking in this bill for some definition of “Kiwi mums and dads”. Was it going to be the case that if you had not had children you could not buy a share? There is no definition of “mums and dads” because that was always public relations spin. The Government and the people of New Zealand know that the New Zealand shares— 
PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
PHIL TWYFORD (Labour—Te Atatu) 
: 
 There are many reasons to feel angry about this Mixed Ownership Model Bill—there are many reasons. It amounts to a massive transfer of resources from ordinary New Zealanders as taxpayers to the relatively small number of people who can afford to buy shares when these companies are floated. Power prices will go up; we know that. We know that New Zealanders will suffer. People who can barely afford to pay their electricity bills now will suffer and we know that this privatisation programme makes no financial sense for New Zealand. 
I want to talk about Supplementary Order Paper 60. It basically adds new clause 16A which states: “Any proceeds generated for the Crown as a result of the sale or disposal of shares in a mixed ownership model company must be paid to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund established under the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001.” One of the most galling things about this Government’s privatisation policy is the rather pathetic attempt to dress up the whole exercise in a thing that this Government calls the Future Investment Fund. It is a transparent attempt to sugar-coat what is a very bitter pill for almost all New Zealanders. National for some reason thinks that the two-thirds or maybe it is 80 percent of New Zealanders who were opposed to this policy will somehow be mollified by the idea that it is going to put the proceeds of this privatisation into some kind of notional—some kind of fictional—Future Investment Fund.  
The only thing that is possibly more galling than this is that today we have had to sit in the Chamber through Tony Ryall the Minister for State Owned Enterprises speaking in hushed tones about the European financial crisis and suggesting to the nation that if the Government does not privatise all these assets then somehow New Zealand is going to tumble into a global financial crisis and the world will come to an end. That is totally overlooking the fact that the Government’s fiscal problems are largely a result of firstly its unaffordable tax cuts and secondly its utter failure to get growth going in the economy.  
What is it going to spend the proceeds of the sales on? This is what it says: schools—a lick of paint here and there—hospitals irrigation and according to the Budget it is going to put $250 million into KiwiRail. Well as many commentators have pointed out this is all normal Government capital expenditure and it is a nonsense to dress it up as if it is some extra Future Investment Fund. I want to quote Paul Callow from Deloitte who said that “Tagging the proceeds in this way doesn’t really fool anyone: money is money and the fact that the Government has just sold a stake in an SOE simply means it has more of it to spend or needs to borrow less.”  
It is an absolute nonsense that in an energy-constrained world we are now selling energy assets—these four precious electricity companies—to fund repairs on schools and hospitals. We are selling an income-earning asset to fund the maintenance on a non-earning asset. That I think exposes the total poverty of thinking and of economic development behind this Government’s policy.  
The Future Investment Fund is a cruel hoax. It is a notional fund. It has no existence in reality and all the items that the Government has mentioned in recent months that it is going to spend the proceeds on are standard items of capital expenditure. I urge members of this Committee to support my Supplementary Order Paper 60 which instead of putting the money into this notional fund would redirect it at least to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund—the Cullen fund—which at least would not fritter away the proceeds of these precious assets on the repair and maintenance of standard items of capital expenditure. Every New Zealander knows that that should not be what happens anyway. What should happen is that this Government should cancel this privatisation programme hold on to these assets for future generations of New Zealand and hold on to them for the financial health of our nation and so that this country has the strategic assets—the energy companies—that we need to guarantee that the nation has a secure supply of sustainable and affordable energy for future generations.  
If this Government had a clue about economic development it would not be selling these assets. If you look at the example of Norway it is the textbook study of a country that got the most out of its natural resource. Norway’s State-owned petroleum company ensured that Norway’s assets—Norway’s natural resources—were exploited for the good of the Norwegian people. New Zealand is a leader in renewable energy and what is this Government doing? What is this Government doing? We are a leader in renewable energy and it is selling off the very assets that we own that will develop sources of renewable energy. 
 Even if you consider our State energy company Solid Energy and you think about the massive reserves of coal that this country has that one day may be able to be exploited in a sustainable way—it could be a huge resource for this country in years to come for future generations—what are we doing? We are privatising the very company that would ensure that the benefits from those resources are enjoyed here and the only revenue stream for a future Government is a 1 percent royalty. I cannot believe how stupid this policy is in that respect.  
If you consider Mighty River Power it is one of the world’s 10 largest developers and operators of geothermal energy. Mighty River Power is a fantastic success story in the New Zealand energy industry. Geothermal energy is only 0.3 percent of generation internationally but it is one of the parts of the global energy industry that is growing fast. It has huge prospects. Mighty River Power is developing new plants at Ngatamariki at Puketoi wind farm and another one north-east of Rotorua. It has also got a stake in the GeoGlobal Partners Fund a US company that is developing a 50-megawatt geothermal plant in California. Mighty River Power is a treasure—it is a national treasure—that we should be proud of. We should be keeping it in New Zealand hands so that it is owned by all New Zealanders and so that the benefits of this innovative company are kept in New Zealand and are there for generations of New Zealanders to enjoy. But what is this Government doing? It is privatising those assets. It is giving away the future potential of some of our most strategic assets. This Government has no qualms about privatising them.  
What could be more strategic in the 21st century than energy companies and water companies? Instead this Government is selling them off for a short-term sugar fix to give it a little bit of debt reduction in a fiscal crisis of its own making and it is going to use the proceeds to put a lick of paint on schools and hospitals. It dresses up that phoney financial transaction with this ridiculous Future Investment Fund as if this would sugar-coat what is a very bitter pill for all New Zealanders.  
The Future Investment Fund is a sham. It is a phoney fund. I urge members of this Committee to vote for my Supplementary Order Paper 60. Instead of wasting the proceeds of this privatisation on the maintenance of standard items of capital expenditure what my Supplementary Order Paper would do is shift those funds into the Cullen fund—the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. At least then the resources instead of being wasted by this Government would be kept for the benefit of future generations. 
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Hunua) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The question is that the question be now put. Those who are of that opinion— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Before you put the question I would like an assurance from you. You will be aware that we have submitted a large number of amendments. We had some chat about this you will recall last night. I just want an assurance that you have personally perused those and checked them over if we are going to move to a vote. It is a fair question especially if you are going to make any rulings in respect of them. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Let me firstly make this point. When the Chair makes a call for the Committee to determine whether it wants the question put the Chair has given considerable consideration to all factors and to start challenging the Chair at that point is actually a reflection on the Chair. It is a reflection on the Chair and members ought to do that with some caution. I assure all members that I have given consideration to every possible aspect and that I think is appropriate for at this moment the Committee to determine whether it wants the closure. Accordingly I put— 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Can you tell us which factors you have taken into account? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: That is entirely out of order. I have said I have taken all factors into consideration. The question is— 
Dr David Clark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I ask this with due respect as a new member who is not sure of the remedies available to me. As somebody who did not have the opportunity in Part 1 of the debate to speak to my Supplementary Order Paper and raise some germane points which I do not believe were raised in the debate as someone who has not had a chance to speak in Part 2 and as somebody who listened to more submissions to the select committee than anyone else what remedy is available to me to be able to speak to this debate? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The remedy the member has now is to vote against the closure. I have considered as I say all factors. 
A party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put.  
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Order! Votes will be taken in silence and that will be upheld. No member will vote under duress in this Chamber and it is difficult enough to hear the votes as they are. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Members a number of amendments have been tabled by various members of the Labour Party. The amendments mirror those talked about yesterday. They seek to change words that are similar or change words that are an expression. A great number are vague in that it is very difficult to know where they fit or where they should appear. There is however one exception—and we have diligently looked at all of the amendments—and that is the vote that we are going to put now. It is in the name— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am not making a reflection on the Chair but you have used rather graphic language—as you have a right to do—to describe those amendments. When those amendments were placed on the Table you were the presiding officer and to the best of my knowledge you have not retired from the Chamber. Given the description that you have used about those amendments I would like to know whether you have looked through all those amendments. Given that you have used those rather colourful phrases—and I would have to question whether some of those might be in order but that is your right—I would like an assurance that you have perused all those amendments because you have not left this Chamber. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Yes I have. So the question is— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The member needs to be very careful about where he proceeds with these points of order. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I am entitled to make a point of order. I am not being facetious when I say this. You answered: “Yes I have.” I take it that you mean you have perused them. Because there were two questions. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Correct. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of Clare Curran to clause 13 be agreed to: 
in new section 1A(2)(ea) replace “ownership” with “control”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The remaining amendments that were tabled at 7.32 p.m. are ruled out of order for the same reasons as last night under Speakers’ rulings 115/4 and 115/5. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 42 in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to Part 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 83 
New Zealand National 59; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 37 
New Zealand Labour 34; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Amendments agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 in the name of Jacinda Ardern to Part 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 49 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Rt Hon Winston Peters to clause 16 be agreed to: 
to insert in new section 45P(2) in its appropriate alphabetical order: “ 
person 
 means any New Zealand citizen excluding companies trusts and foreign nationals”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1.  
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Noes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Dr Russel Norman’s amendment to amend new section 45Q(2) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 71 is ruled out of order as inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 57 in the name of the Hon David Parker to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Noes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 37 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 39 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to insert new section 45QA into clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 61 in the name of Dr Megan Woods to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Rt Hon Winston Peters to clause 16 be agreed to: 
in new section 45R after subsection (3) insert: 
(4)Notwithstanding anything in this Act or in any other Act the Ministers who are shareholding Ministers in any mixed ownership model company in which the Crown does not own 100% of the voting shares may at any time acquire additional shares up to 100% of the total voting shares issued by any mixed ownership model company and for this purpose and notwithstanding anything contained in the constitution of the company concerned and notwithstanding anything contained in any shareholder agreement will give notice to any shareholder or shareholders requiring that shareholder or those shareholders to sell or surrender shares specified in the notice to the Crown and requiring the company concerned to register a transfer of the shares specified in the notice to the Crown and on such terms and conditions and at such time or times as the shareholding Ministers shall specify in the notice or notices and for such compensation or payment as shall be specified in the notice or notices provided that the shareholding Ministers will not compensate or pay more to any shareholder from whom shares are acquired under this section than the amount the Crown received for those shares when sold by the Crown to the original purchaser of the shares from the Crown. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 22 
Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8. 
Noes 97 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 34; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 50 in the name of Clare Curran to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 49 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1. 
Noes 71 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 64 in the name of Chris Hipkins to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 48 in the name of the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 39 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to insert new section 45Y into clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 51 in the name of Kris Faafoi to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The Hon Phil Goff has an amendment relating to a new section 45Y set out on Supplementary Order Paper 52. That is now withdrawn. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 59 in the name of Grant Robertson to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 49 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1. 
Noes 71 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: My sincere apologies. I have misread the previous amendment in the name of the Hon Phil Goff. I will read it and then we will put that amendment. The Hon Phil Goff’s typescript amendment inserting a new section 45Y to retrict an interest in securities in mixed-ownership model companies to persons who are tax resident in New Zealand—Supplementary Order Paper 52 is withdrawn and that replaces it. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 16 be agreed to: 
New Zealand ownership 
45YNew Zealand ownership 
(1)No person (other than the Crown) may have an interest in shares or securities of a mixed ownership model company unless they are tax resident within New Zealand. 
(2)No company trust or other organisation capable of owning property (other than the Crown) may have an interest in shares or securities of a mixed ownership model company unless they are tax resident within New Zealand. 
(3)Any ownership of shares or securities of a mixed ownership model company that does not comply with subsections (1) and (2) is invalid and of no legal effect. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 69 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to clause 16 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 60 in the name of Phil Twyford to insert new clause 16A be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 2 as amended be agreed to. 
Ayes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Part 2 as amended agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Members there have been two new parts tabled both in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard. I have to inform the Committee that the Hon Trevor Mallard’s amendment to insert a new Part 3 as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 56 is out of order as that amendment pertained to Part 2 and should have been associated with and debated at that point. The second amendment to insert a new Part 3 a typescript amendment providing that sections 3 to 18 have no effect until a citizens initiated referendum is dealt with and providing for a power to suspend sections 3 to 18 depending on the outcome of the citizens initiated referendum is out of order because that amendment should have been voted on and associated with Parts 1 and 2 at that time. So the question now is— 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think you have missed one of the sets of amendments that were tabled in my name which also inserted a new Part 3. I appreciate that there have been a number of amendments. I have got copies here if you want to have them but they certainly have been tabled. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I have to inform the member that the clerk has informed me that it has not been lodged. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Well it was placed on the Table. I have got additional copies. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The member I think knows that six copies have to be presented to the clerk. 
Chris Hipkins 
: And I can certainly assure the Committee that the copies have been tabled. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Just to clarify when you say “tabled” were six copies presented to the clerk? 
Chris Hipkins 
: I understand that they were certainly part of the various bundles that have been tabled. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: We have been very very carful to not make any mistakes. I have already made one which I went back on tonight in relation to the reading. I have no record of the amendment. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I was the person who put the bundle of amendments with the clerk and they have been checked. I am not questioning the clerk’s word at all. There is nothing underhand in that respect but I am very sure that they were contained—the Minister in the chair the Minister for State Owned Enterprises can shake his head but I am addressing the Chair—within that bundle. So it was somewhere between their being presented and coming back into the Chamber. That is my honest view. I was the one who placed them on the Table. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Can members take a moment while we just check that. 
Chris Hipkins 
: One of the things we did in addition to presenting a whole lot of amendments to the clerk was I then presented a summary bundle of all of those amendments to the clerk to help them basically in their compilation of them which is that one. It may be that the amendment to insert additional Part 3 was not in the bundle I gave them. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Oh! 
Chris Hipkins 
: Well I did not have to give them the bundle. I gave them the bundle to be helpful. But I can assure you that it would have been in the large bundle that was presented. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I accept the member’s word that he has tabled them. 
Chris Hipkins 
: I have got copies if you would like to see them. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Could I just have a quick look please. I have had a brief look and my assessment is that the amendment does pertain to Part 1 of the bill and in that regard it is out of order. If there has been some mess-up in what have been a few reams of paper I do apologise. I accept the member’s word that he did table it but it is out of order in that regard. 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Can I acknowledge that and can I also acknowledge the work of the clerks. There is certainly not a criticism of the clerks or of you. I am sure there was a mistake somewhere but it was unintentional on all sides. So there is certainly no suggestion that there has been any inappropriate behaviour. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: That is fine and that is why I accept the member’s word. So we move to the debate on schedule 1 and the question is that schedule 1 stand part. Is some member seeking the call? [ 
Interruption 
] There is no debate. Sorry. We are on the schedule. My apologies— 
Hon Member 
: The olden days. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: That is the olden days. Let me just refresh your minds for new members that when we debated the parts that included schedules 1 and 2. So now that we have got that straight I will put the question. 
Schedule 1 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Schedule 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Schedule 1 agreed to. 
Schedule 2 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: There is an amendment in the name of Jacinda Ardern to replace “mixed ownership model company” with “privatisation of public property company” set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44. That is out of order as it is inconsistent with an earlier decision of the Committee. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Schedule 2 be agreed to.  
Ayes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Schedule 2 agreed to. 
Clauses 1 and 2 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 In this again swift process that we are embarking on we move to the title and the commencement. In this debate colleagues of mine will propose a number of amendments. 
Grant Robertson 
: Excellent amendments. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Excellent amendments. I know that Mr Clark has proposed Supplementary Order Paper 45 to rename the Mixed Ownership Model Bill the “State Asset Privatisation Act 2012”. In respect of the commencement we know of course that the Government has tried to expedite or in plain language ram through— 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: With the support of the Maori Party. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —with the support of the Maori Party of course as my colleague Parekura Horomia says—this whole process. We know that the Governor-General’s pen will have hardly touched the parchment before the Government tries to move this bill through in the vain hope that the people of New Zealand might sort of say “Right that’s it.” hoist the white flag of surrender and forget about it which they will not. 
To that end we have a number of amendments in my colleagues’ names. Mr Parker has lodged Supplementary Order Paper 47 to change the enactment date to 2016 which will be a period as colleagues will realise after the next general election. Chris Hipkins has Supplementary Order Paper 53 which is a very good amendment that prevents enactment unless there is a 75 percent majority of this House effectively providing for an entrenchment provision to ensure that this legislation does not come into existence unless it has the overwhelming support of the House. Grant Robertson has Supplementary Order Paper 58 which prevents enactment until the Finance and Expenditure Committee reviews and approves the legislation. This is a very important amendment and one that is close to the hearts of a number of us including Mr Parker and Mr Clark who had to sit through one of the most disgraceful select committee processes that in my 13 years in Parliament I have ever been a part of.  
Andrew Little 
: What was Maggie Barry’s role? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Well Maggie Barry’s role to answer Mr Little’s question was simply to attempt to subdue any submitter who came along in respect of being anti the privatisation of assets. It was a disgraceful moment in the committee one that I would not have thought we would see from any side of the House. I know that Mr Brownlee is Leader of the House—oh no this is not mate. Have a read of the amendments I say to the senior Government whip. He is doing his sort of callisthenics over there flapping his arms in the breeze. I suggest he might want to read Supplementary Order Paper 58 in Mr Robertson’s name. While he is trying to sort of levitate or whatever through flapping his arms he might actually want to read what is on the Table. As I was saying I am sure that Mr Brownlee a learned member and Leader of the House in this Parliament would agree that intimidating voters by asking in a select committee them how they vote or demanding to know how they vote would be a disgrace. Even though Mr Brownlee is a political opponent I know he is a bit of a traditionalist in the parliamentary and the culinary sense and I am sure he would agree with me. It was a disgraceful process a process where submitters were treated in many respects like dirt. They were abused in some respects ignored and basically laughed at by Government members especially by—I know that he is here somewhere—Dr Nick Smith. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Come back to relevance. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Mr Brownlee says “Come back to relevance.” Well had Mr Brownlee actually been on the committee he would know. He has been on the odd select committee; I think he was on what is the one the Government Administration Committee which deals with the catering or something perhaps in Parliament. He has been on select committees and he knows that an important part of select committees is to actually listen to submissions. Whether or not you agree with them the process is to listen. If you are really cynical as a politician you sort of act out the part that you are going to listen to submitters. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Come on—clause 1. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: No no clause 2. Read the Supplementary Order Paper. I know Mr Brownlee that it is not published by Golden Books or Dr Seuss but try reading Supplementary Order Paper 58 in the name of Mr Robertson because that amendment prevents this legislation from coming into enactment until it goes back to the select committee the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a full review of the legislation. 
If that was to happen we would actually have submitters being given more than 5 minutes and we would not have the chairman of the committee turn to the committee and say that the committee as a whole—this is the select committee—can have one question. One question right? That is all we were allowed for many of those submitters and many of those submitters were rubbished. So I think this amendment is particularly good because putting all politics aside part of the job of select committees is to at least get the legislation into an appropriate form so that at least it can be dealt with in the House. That is what people expect of us. But when you have 1400 nearly 1500 submitters rock up to a select committee— 
Grant Robertson 
: Queuing up. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —they were queuing up indeed—to put their point of view forward and you get what borders on intimidation from some members that is not on. 
Then we have of course the absurd case—and one that I think has made history in this place—where on instruction from the Minister on instruction from the chair of the select committee Todd McClay Treasury officials were told to write their report on the submissions and to submit it to the select committee prior to the submitters actually completing the hearing of evidence. That is— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Give us a new one. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Give us a what? 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: A new one. Not the same old rubbish. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: No no. You see Gerry Brownlee does not like it. He does not like it when we repeat these points because they happen to be true—that is why—and because the people of New Zealand and the 1400 nearly 1500 organisations and individuals who came to that select committee will remember the conduct that was visited upon them by the National members. They will remember that—the dismissive nature of the National Party. I know that Mr Brownlee hates it when we remind him of these things but sadly it is the truth. That is what happened. I will be seeking support for that amendment because that actually treats submitters with respect. 
If we look at the title of the bill and the naming of it— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Oh finally. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: I was not going to call it the “Big Fella Bill” I will tell you that. The title of the bill could well go down in reference to Mr Dunne of course. This could be “The Day Peter Dunne Gave the Government the One Vote It Needed to Sell Out Kiwis Bill”. We could call it that perhaps. We could name it that. I invite Mr Dunne to break new ground in this debate and actually get up and take a call. That would be helpful. We know he has had several positions on things like water and other things that we will not go into. But I would have thought that given that it is the “Dunne deal” and he will go down in history as New Zealand’s biggest auctioneer if it turns on his vote he will want to get on the record as to why he sold New Zealanders out. So this could be the “Dunne Deal Bill”—the day Peter Dunne gave the Government the one vote it needed to sell New Zealanders out. We wait and we hope that Peter Dunne will do so. He would not turn up on radio today. He would not turn up at any forum. Submitters told us before the select committee that he refused to meet with them. He refused to meet with his own constituents to even discuss this bill. It is OK for an MP to say: “Look I disagree with you.” 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Come on. Say something serious. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: “Plonker”—there is a title for that member. Mr Dunne would not meet with his constituents—he would not meet with them. It is OK for members of Parliament to say: “I disagree with you.” but they should have the decency to invite them to their offices and actually sit down and listen to them. That is what I say to the big fella over there. That is what I say to him. I know that that member does not meet with his constituents because he does not give a damn about them. He does not meet with them of course. But I think Peter Dunne has the one vote that could turn this the one vote that could stop this bill. There is a redeeming feature. There is redemption for Mr Dunne if he was to vote against this. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Come on. Talk to the title. Try hard. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: The “Redemption Bill” indeed—there is a good title. Mr Brownlee would remember that from his Catholic Sunday school classes at St Bede’s College between other activities. But yes it could be the “Peter Dunne Redemption Bill”. It could be the one time that Peter Dunne could come into this House and say: “Actually I got it wrong the people have got it right and I am going to vote against the Government.” If I were a betting man I do not know what the TAB odds on that would be but I believe that Peter Dunne does owe a duty of care. He does have a moral responsibility to stand up take a call and explain to the people of Ohariu the people of New Zealand why it could be his vote—although we do not know where the Maori Party members sit on this of course; they are all over the place like the proverbial—that either sells New Zealanders out or redeems this Parliament and holds our assets in Kiwi hands. 
As to the Maori Party well I cannot refer to that but you know I would love those members to take a call on anything in respect of this—on anything in respect of this. We could call this the “Where is the Maori Party on State-owned Assets Bill”. I would love them to actually take a call and give us a position. They went around the marae of course and said: “We’ve done a deal with New Zealand. We’ve sewn up land rights property rights and Treaty rights for Maori.” Then Tuwharetoa came to us and said “Nah it hasn’t happened.”—and they were armed with legal advice. Those members have voted I think with the Government on everything— 
Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I have waited a long time and I am very very pleased to finally have my say although I remain disappointed that many of the issues that I feel are germane to this debate have not been discussed because Government members have been so keen to rush the Mixed Ownership Model Bill through without full scrutiny by Parliament without a full debate because they do not like it and they know that people out there in the street are marching against this. Mr Brownlee knows that they are marching against this in the street. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: When? 
Dr DAVID CLARK 
: They were marching in Dunedin Mr Brownlee. They were marching in Dunedin. They were marching elsewhere around the country. [ 
Interruption 
] Mr Woodhouse was not there. He was invited but he did not turn up. People hate this. They do not like this legislation and that is why I particularly want to support Mr Robertson’s amendment that calls for this bill to go back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee because the process was rushed there too. The process in the select committee was rushed. The people who spoke were limited to 5 minutes. The people around the table asking questions on behalf of Parliament were frequently limited to one question— 
Andrew Little 
: You’re joking! 
Dr DAVID CLARK 
: No I am not joking at all. This is a very serious matter. This is not proper democracy. Mr Little is right. This feels wrong. This is one of the most controversial pieces of legislation to go through this House and I fear it has not had a proper select committee process. That is why Mr Robertson’s amendment makes a lot of sense. This bill should go back to the select committee to make sure that it has a full and thorough process. I know that there were submitters who were not heard because they could not make teleconference calls arranged at short notice. We know those of us who sat around the table and heard 150-odd submissions that there were more who wanted to speak against this. Some of them may have wanted to speak in favour—we do not know. There were 0.6 percent of the written submissions in favour of the bill. There may have been some germane ideas amongst those. Goodness knows the National Government could do with one or two arguments in support of its bill but we did not hear them; nor did we hear from those many people who submitted but could not make the teleconference calls that were arranged at short notice. Mr Robertson’s amendment is one well worth supporting. 
In Treasury on the top floor there used to hang a cartoon. It was a cartoon by Tom Scott. I am not sure whether it is still there but it is germane to the amendment I wish to move about privatisation—renaming the bill. In this Tom Scott cartoon stand two Treasury officials obviously furious with one another. It sits I am sure up on the top floor of Treasury as a reminder not to be stuck in ideological blinkers but to take pragmatic solutions as the way forward through to the future. The Treasury officials in this cartoon are arguing. They are arguing about the ECNZ split-up—this goes a long way back. One Treasury official says to the other: “I know it works in practice but it does not work in theory.” 
Treasury I think has learnt from that. Treasury now provides advice that says we should take the wider picture into account. We should not have our ideological blinkers on our privatisation blinkers. We need to take the facts into account. That is why Treasury has provided advice that shows that there are lost dividends that are greater than the proceeds from these sales. These privatisation sales will take the country backwards. The Government will be out of pocket as a result of these sales. I am with Brian Fallow who sees this legislation as a solution in search of a problem. I think this bill should be renamed the “State Asset Privatisation Bill” and that is why I have moved the amendment in my name to be very clear about what this bill is doing. 
We heard from a submitter at the select committee—one of the ones who was allowed to speak although he was kept pretty brief and within the constraints the unreasonable constraints placed by the chair of the select committee—who gave an explanation of what had happened in one of the regions in India where a partial privatisation had proceeded. At a given point when the region was cash-strapped the private investors came forward and said: “We will invest further in this company if and only if the whole thing is privatised.” 
 It is a slippery slope. That is the position that this bill puts us in. It puts us in a position where the people who are in charge of these companies we are told will still be the Government at 51 percent but it is suddenly in a very vulnerable position for any future capitalising. It is also tied in to raising any debt that is required to fund future capital developments. This legislation puts the Government on the back foot. Why would we do that? These companies currently provide dividends that fund our schools and hospitals. We are talking about privatising them so we can fund schools and hospitals overseas. We already own these assets. Why on earth would we want to sell them to other people—those who have got the money and who have only benefited from National’s tax cuts—and then allow them to sell them offshore so that those dividends flow offshore and so that they undermine our balance of payments yet further and get us into more of a hole than we are already in? 
Andrew Little 
: It doesn’t make sense. 
Dr DAVID CLARK 
: It does not make sense. Private interests will control these assets in a way that they should not. Energy infrastructure is essential to this country. It is essential to our industries that rely on electricity for manufacturing. It is essential to our people down in the south certainly who are at risk of freezing in their homes if there are blackouts. We need to control these assets because that is the role of the State. The role of the State is to look after its people. We in the Labour Party are afraid that the appropriate measures are not contained in this bill to make sure that the appropriate Crown control is retained so that these assets can be properly managed in the interests of the whole of New Zealand not in the interests of the bottom line of a minority—at this stage—of private shareholders. 
I am arguing vehemently that the name of this bill should be changed to the “State Asset Privatisation Bill” because that is what it is. Anything else is a mealy-mouthed attempt to divert away from the real issues here. The mixed-ownership model as it has been called is not a popular vernacular term. It is not a term that everyday mum and dad New Zealanders understand—if there is such a mythical beast. 
So the bill should have this name and then it should be sent back to the select committee. As I began at the beginning of my speech to say Mr Robertson’s amendment is one that I will be thoroughly and fully supporting because it would see these issues debated fully and properly not in a rushed process that reports back to the House 5 weeks ahead of schedule—5 weeks 5 full weeks ahead of schedule—for one of the most controversial pieces of legislation likely to go through. This was a rushed process; teleconference submitters missed out we had 5-minute limits on the submitters and the select committee reported back 5 weeks early. There was no need for that rush. 
There were plenty of questions that were not answered in the select committee. These are the kinds of questions that we could ask for further advice on. We could ask for further advice on the risks in the Tuwharetoa case. We could ask for further advice from Treasury on what would happen in the management of the Manapouri dam where we understand there may be an increased cost to the Crown of doing business as a result of these changes. But we did not get the opportunity to ask advice from the officials because the chair of the committee Mr Todd McClay was in such a hurry to bring these issues back to the House. 
I would be interested if Mr Todd McClay wished to take a call on these title and commencement clauses but we have not heard anything from him. He has been keeping his head down since doing his part of this dirty deal and bringing this bill back to the House in short order because he does not want the debate to flourish. He does not want the debate to be held fully in this House and nor does the Minister in the chair Tony Ryall. I challenge the Minister also to take a call on this part of the bill to argue as to why it should not be called the “Privatisation Bill” and to argue also why it should not go back to the select committee for a proper and full hearing Mr Ryall. Mr Ryall I think you understand the processes of this House. You have been around long enough. I would like to see it go back to the select committee as Mr Robertson recommends in his amendment. 
Other issues that could be debated in the select committee and upon which we could seek advice are the discount rate choice done in the modelling and the replacement costs of these assets—could they actually be replaced? These were questions we did not have advice on. We know that those are difficult questions. We know that the Government does not want to face those questions but it can and it should. It has advisers for a reason. We have a select committee process so that we can argue fully these issues and understand them fully so the public can fully understand them and so this House can reach proper and good decisions. When the process is rushed the House is at risk of not making the best decisions on behalf of the country. And that is what we are here for—we are charged as parliamentarians to have this debate fully and properly. As the Opposition Labour members know we are not always going to win the debate but we actually want to make sure— 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I rise to speak in the title and commencement clauses debate on this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. I think the title of this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill is actually an interesting concept that is worth discussing. For that reason in the election campaign where this was being discussed we took the view that we were not at all opposed to the State-owned enterprises forming partnerships with private sector partners. I think the previous Government took the same view. There is not a problem with the State-owned enterprises partnering with private sector corporations in order to make progress for whatever the particular field is that they are involved in in the energy sector. 
So we particularly looking at the electricity companies saw the electricity companies as part of New Zealand’s economic future. These companies have the ability to use the expertise that they have in renewable energy generation in order to export that technology and that expertise around the world. By partnering with private sector companies they could actually facilitate that process. We were not at all opposed to maintaining the State-owned enterprises as State-owned enterprises in full public ownership but getting them to partner with some other entrepreneurs who may have some great ideas in the renewable energy sector and energy efficiency sector which then could be exported to the rest of the world so New Zealand could get its part of the dramatic growth in the renewable energy sector internationally. 
Those of you who read  
The Economist 
—and I am sure there are none in the Government benches—will see that the front cover of  
The Economist 
 this week is all about what is going on in the Arctic. Of course linked to that is the rise of the renewable energy sector. This is New Zealand’s great economic opportunity. These companies—these State-owned enterprises—provide an opportunity for us to actually get an in to that market as has been referred to elsewhere in this debate. 
The problem is that the path that the Government is going down which is to privatise these companies means that instead of maintaining the headquarters the research and development and the core of the companies in New Zealand we will see a slow drift of these companies as more and more control falls into overseas ownership and the companies lose a strategy that is attached to advancing the best interests of New Zealand. That is the danger with the strategy that this Government is pursuing. If we see these companies simply as “another company” that the Government can partially privatise or privatise in order to fill a hole in their Budget this year or next year as a result of their tax cuts for upper-income earners—if we take that view we misunderstand the significance of the renewable energy sector to New Zealand. 
New Zealand is a world leader in renewable energy technology particularly in geothermal and hopefully in the future in tidal technology. That gives us a strategic opportunity to place ourselves in the global energy market. What we need in energy is what Fonterra has done in the dairy sector. We need a global-scale New Zealand company or set of companies that are working together that can actually become major global leaders in the renewable energy sector. That is why rather than partial privatisation through this Mixed Ownership Model Bill we saw the advantage in a partnership with these companies with private sector entrepreneurs. They could get the best the private sector has to offer New Zealand in terms of its ideas and in terms of its capital but without losing control of the companies and without the companies falling under overseas control as the headquarters moves overseas the research and development moves overseas and so forth. 
We have seen what happens in other sectors of our economy when they fall under foreign ownership. You have to look only at Contact Energy—another energy company that has now fallen under Australian ownership. It does not see New Zealand as a major platform. It is not an export base to the rest of the world. The banking sector has exactly the same approach and telecommunications is the same. When we lose control of major parts of our economy into overseas ownership they no longer become platforms for advancing New Zealand interests to the world; they simply become profit centres for a multinational corporation. 
The danger with the Mixed Ownership Model Bill is that we will see the same thing happening to the electricity sector that has happened to the other infrastructure sectors in our country. Then the electricity sector simply becomes a drain on the New Zealand economy in the same way that the banking sector is simply a drain on the New Zealand economy. Instead of being a platform from which we export to the world—[ 
Bell rung 
] So it is for that reason that we think that this is a missed opportunity. You could call it the “Missed Opportunity Bill”. 
For New Zealand we have only so many missed opportunities that we can actually have. There is not an unlimited ability for us to make a mess of our economy and for successive Governments to make a mess of the economy. So if the Government takes us down this path we miss the opportunity to actually take advantage of the global green economic revolution which is happening right in front of us at the moment for anyone who happens to read  
The Economist 
 or any other mainstream economic paper. You will see that this is a “Missed Opportunity Bill” rather than a Mixed Ownership Model Bill because it is a missed opportunity for New Zealand to take its place in the world and develop another global-scale company like Fonterra which is what we need to do. 
The Government’s approach is: “Well we just turn them into mixed-ownership model companies regular kinds of companies and they just do whatever companies do. They just make profits or they do not and they provide us with electricity or they do not but it is none of the Government’s business.” That is the Government’s approach. It is just another market. But if you take that approach then you systematically and slowly start to lose control of your economy. 
That is the history of New Zealand. As we have headed down this privatisation path and this Mixed Ownership Model Bill takes us further down that path sector by sector we have lost control of key sectors of the New Zealand economy whether it is telecommunications whether it is banking and now it is going to be electricity and energy. As we do that we start to narrow our economic opportunities and the kinds of things we can do. 
If you think about the comparison with Fonterra Fonterra did not just come into being because someone decided we would just let the free market rip. Fonterra is the antithesis of the free market. When you think about it it is a producer cooperative. It came into being through an Act of Parliament. It essentially operates as a monopoly in New Zealand. It has used that platform to export to the rest of the world yet in every other sector including now the electricity sector as in this Mixed Ownership Model Bill we are taking an attitude that says “Oh just let the market sort it out. We will be fine.” 
Actually we will not be fine. If we keep going down these paths and losing control of key sectors of our economy we will continue to go backwards as indicated by the most recent current account deficit figures. Under this Government the current account deficit is getting worse and is projected to get worse. Each time we sell off some of our key assets that means some of those profits go overseas. We add to our current account deficit. We add to the economic impoverishment of our country if we do not take our strategic opportunities. Other small countries that operate in the global market have taken a much more strategic approach to what economic opportunities are available to them. They have taken an approach that is more like a Fonterra and less like a Mixed Ownership Model Bill. 
For that reason in order to provide some kinds of opportunities we have moved an amendment to this part of the bill which is about having a referendum before the bill is given the Royal assent. Obviously that is about the fact that we are very clearly aware that the people of New Zealand are resolutely opposed to the privatisation programme of this Government because they have a vision of their country that is much more long term they have a vision of their country that is about investing in their future and they have a very different vision about the future of New Zealand than this current Government. That is why we have moved a Supplementary Order Paper to this part in order to give people the ability to have a referendum so that they can decide whether this bill should progress—whether the privatisation programme that National is so keen on should progress. 
National has talked a lot about its mandate but of course when people go to the vote in an election they have might have voted for John Key but that does not mean that they supported privatisation. That is why we think there should be an amendment moved to this section— 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Part 2 is finished. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN 
: —that would give people the ability to have a referendum before this bill receives the Royal assent. That is the amendment we are moving. We are moving an amendment to this part to the commencement and title. The Supplementary Order Paper that we have in front of us Supplementary Order Paper 70 is actually an amendment to the commencement and title clauses of this bill and that is why I am talking about the right of people to have a referendum to have a say about whether these assets are privatised. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First) 
: 
 I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First concerning the title and commencement of the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. First of all I would have to say that the title proposed by the Government is most inappropriate—so by the way is the title for the Maori Party which has taken no part in this debate whatsoever yet has supported the Government on each and every I think amendment to each part of this bill. I think actually the Maori Party should be renamed. It should be renamed the “Ghost Party”—something that you never see and never hear of yet it has an effect. The “Ghost Party” I think is what the Maori Party should call itself. It should rename itself as well. This bill should be renamed as well because it does not reflect the real nature of the bill and it does not reflect the deep unpopularity of this bill with the people of New Zealand so well expressed in a number of ways—emails letters and the referendum petition currently being circulated. 
I want to tell the Committee that on one very cold and windy day in Christchurch in the city mall in Christchurch with demolition happening around me I presented this petition to as many of the people of Christchurch as possible—and by the way to a number of tourists who walked through the mall on that day—and it was very very easy to get signatures for that petition because that petition is one that reflects the will of the people. People were queuing up to sign it. I could not find enough copies of the petition to get signatures on. That is how unpopular this bill and this proposal are. 
This particular title is extremely inappropriate and New Zealand First has many suggestions of much much more appropriate and reflective titles for this bill. First of all we think it could well be called the “Unpopular SOEs Amendment Bill”. We think that would really reflect the mood of the nation and would be a much more appropriate title for this bill. We also think that it could be called the “Inevitable Full Privatisation of New Zealand’s Most Valuable Assets Bill” because that reflects the true nature of what this bill will really mean. Another suggestion we have is the “Higher Power Prices Bill” because that is the fundamental meaning of this bill and every New Zealander knows that that is going to be the inevitable outcome of it. We think another good title would be the “Alienation of Water Rights for Power Generation Bill”. That is a bit of a mouthful but actually it says very well what is happening with this particular piece of legislation. 
I have another suggestion and it is one that the leader of United Future should consider. It is the “Dunne Dishonestly Bill” because that particular member of Parliament has fudged on his commitment not to alienate water rights. I listened with interest to the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard when he gave an interview on television recently. 
But there are more suggestions. Any of these would be satisfactory to New Zealand First. Another one of these is the “Economic Lunacy Bill” because that is exactly what it is—economic lunacy to sell valuable assets that are returning a very good rate of return and instead to repay debt when that debt has a low interest rate. It is just economic lunacy. Another one that would appeal to many New Zealanders is the “Lights Out New Zealand Bill” because for many people that is exactly what is going to happen when they find that their electricity bill becomes unaffordable in future years—another fundamental result from this legislation. 
Yet another suggestion is the “Forget Economic Sovereignty Bill” because you would have to forget it if this particular legislation is passed. The economic security and sovereignty of New Zealand is going to be seriously compromised by this legislation. I have a final suggestion for the title of this bill— 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 I appreciate this opportunity to take a call on the title and commencement of this piece of legislation the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. I want to talk about the title and the commencement but I also want to talk about the amendment that I have lodged to these particular provisions and I will come to those in a minute. 
Firstly is the Mixed Ownership Model Bill an appropriate title for this piece of legislation? Clearly it is not. Mixed-ownership model—what a load of tosh! What this is is the assets sales bill. This is the bill that sells the assets that generations of New Zealanders have built up to pass on to future generations of New Zealanders and this Government wants to sell them. It should be a lot more upfront than using these weasel words like “mixed-ownership model”. It is a bit like its plan for ACC where it talks about increasing competition when actually what it means is privatisation. It should be upfront. It should stop using these weasel words to describe its privatisation plans and this bill is exactly that. It is a privatisation bill that will result in assets currently owned by all New Zealanders being sold off. Plain and simple that is what this bill amounts to. The Government should be a lot more upfront than trying to use some tricky title in order to avoid being upfront with New Zealanders about what this bill actually means. 
The Supplementary Order Paper that I have tabled Supplementary Order Paper 53 prevents the enactment of this bill unless there is a 75 percent majority in this House because this Government does not have a mandate to sell these assets. This Government has no mandate. And if it thinks it has a mandate it will vote in favour of this amendment that will require it to get a 75 percent majority to pass this legislation. It would not be afraid of that if it thought New Zealanders really supported it. But they do not. The Government knows New Zealanders do not because this Government—the Government we have here which is forcing this legislation through—was voted for by only less than a third of the voting-age population in this country. Only a third of the country actually voted for this Government. That is not a mandate to do this. 
People overwhelmingly oppose this legislation. Opinion poll after opinion poll has proved it. If the Government really thought that New Zealanders supported this it would not be ramming it through Parliament before the referendum gets off the ground. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind—there is no doubt in my mind—that there will be a referendum because enough New Zealanders will sign the petition for there to be a referendum and the result will overwhelmingly oppose these asset sales. 
So if this Government really thinks that there is a mandate for it to do this why is it trying to push it through? Why is it trying to push it through before New Zealanders have had a chance to have a say on it? And the Government is pushing it through. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Because they don’t care what the public have to say. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: That is right. My colleague Lianne Dalziel has pointed out that the Government does not want to hear what the public has to say. Well I say to the Government that it can listen to the public now or it can listen to them in 2½ years’ time because the New Zealand public do not support this legislation. 
The amendment that I have put forward is a very reasonable one where the Government is proposing a piece of legislation that in effect overrides the law of the land. There are provisions in this legislation that allow the Government to change primary legislation by regulation without reference back to Parliament. That is a constitutional issue. Before it does that it should have a 75 percent majority in Parliament. If this Government is going to pass laws that in effect give it the power to change other laws then that requires more than a one-vote majority. It requires more than just getting Peter Dunne to vote for it. It requires getting more support from the Parliament. 
The Parliament has shown that where there is a genuine need for those sorts of powers we will come together and vote for them. We voted for them after the Christchurch earthquake because we believed that the Government did need some extra power and some extra ability to respond. There is no justification—no justification at all—to give the Government the power to change the law by regulation when it relates to asset sales none at all. The Government is going to give itself that power with a one-vote majority in Parliament—a one-vote majority in Parliament. That is wrong. To give itself that kind of unfettered power for that sort of change to our legislation it should require more than a one-vote majority in Parliament. So the amendment that I have put forward that would require the Government to have a— 
Dr CAM CALDER (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No I do not think so.  
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I have been looking forward to making my contribution on this important debate because I have not had the opportunity to do so thus far but I am pleased that I can on this part of the debate. I have an amendment to clause 1 of this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. The Government also has a Supplementary Order Paper to divide into two bills the bill that is being dealt with here. The first particular amendment on that Supplementary Order Paper actually is correct and that is changing Part 1 of the bill to: “This Act is the State-Owned Enterprises Amendment Act 2012”. That is correct because what it does is it takes four State-owned enterprises out of the State-Owned Enterprises Act and moves them to the Public Finance Act only the public finance Act that they are moving to is the Act that is now going to be called under this particular provision the Public Finance (Mixed Ownership Model) Amendment Act 2012. 
 I think there is a very serious reason why that particular language is incorrect. I believe that it is covering up for what the public know and that is that this is the privatisation of public property. That is what it is. It is nothing less than that. Those members use the language of the mixed-ownership model—the “MOM”. You know they are talking about the ownership of these companies going to ma and pa investors or mom and pop investors. Well I am suggesting that we change the name from “MOM” to “POP”—privatisation of public property. That is exactly what is going on here. 
My colleague Jacinda Ardern actually put forward on Supplementary Order Paper 44 this amendment to a number of other parts of this bill but this part of the bill clause 1 was not included because she had become I think quite disquieted by the fact that the Government had used its— 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Disillusioned. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: In fact Jacinda Ardern is right here and she is offering her contribution to the debate from her chair. She is saying that she was disillusioned by the Government’s response to her very sensible amendment. The reason that she is disillusioned is that she felt that it was not being completely upfront with the language of this mixed-ownership model which really hid the essence of what was going on. So she gave up when it came to clause 1 the title but I have decided that it is actually worthy of debate here because the public have a right to know that their wishes are not being respected by this Government. It is trying to hide the reality of what it is doing behind the language of the mixed-ownership model when in fact the very act of this legislation removing four State-owned enterprises from the coverage of the State-Owned Enterprises Act shows that this is the privatisation of public property. It is the “POP” of the mom and pop legislation that we have been considering in this Chamber over the last few days. 
There are other amendments that colleagues have moved and I notice that Dr David Clark my colleague has also moved an alternative title which is the “State Asset Privatisation Act” or “SAP”. I think that is what the Government thinks the general public are—a bunch of saps. It is not taking them seriously. It knows that there is a citizens initiated referendum petition out there with Grey Power and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions joining hand in hand walking marching up and down this country gathering signatures. Those signatures are gathering and that is why this Committee is debating the bill a long time before the Finance and Expenditure Committee was even due to report back. That is the truth of it and the reason that the Government does not want this bill sitting on the Order Paper any longer than it is is that it does not want the people to have spoken their mind. It does not want to be forced into a referendum situation and to be voting for this legislation in the face of public opinion. But I can tell this Committee that the people will not forget that the Government proceeded with this legislation before they had a chance to speak. 
The other amendments that this side of the Committee is moving actually address that opportunity for the public to truly have a say. The one that I really like is the one in the name of my colleague the Hon David Parker. He says that we should change the date of the coming into force of this bill to 1 April 2016. What is relevant about that date? Apart from the fact that it is April Fool’s Day in 2016 the reason is that it would give an incoming Government the chance to actually listen to the people— 
TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
: 
 I really want to just carry on in many ways from where my colleague Lianne Dalziel left off because I think the debate about the title of this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill is important. I want to refer—in my first opportunity in this particular part of the debate—to Supplementary Order Paper 58 which is in my own name. 
Just before I do that I want to go back to Chris Hipkins’ Supplementary Order Paper 53 which prevents enactment unless there is a 75 percent majority. I think this is a very important Supplementary Order Paper because time and again over the last few weeks we have heard from the National Government about its mandate to pass this legislation. I want to make absolutely clear to that party opposite that in fact in the general election there were more people who voted for parties that oppose asset sales than there were for parties that favour them—40000 more people in fact right across New Zealand. They actually voted for parties that oppose asset sales. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Tony Ryall is laughing. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Tony Ryall does not care about the mandate issue. He is laughing at the fact that there actually is no electoral mandate on this issue. In this Parliament what we have is a situation where the majority— 
Hon Christopher Finlayson 
: Third in the party vote in Wellington Central. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Chris Finlayson is chipping in. Has that member won a seat? Has Chris Finlayson won a seat? No. Chris Finlayson has never won a seat. He has never won a seat. He has never even got close to winning a seat—never even got close to winning a seat. The majority for this legislation in this House comes from Peter Dunne. He represents a party that got less than 1 percent of the party vote and it is his vote that is pushing this bill across the line. 
There is no mandate. Chris Hipkins’ amendment is in fact a very good amendment because what it says is that this Government for something as fundamental as the sale of assets needs to actually have a greater mandate than being on the losing side of the issue in the last election—on the losing side of the issue. There is no mandate over that side. Those members like to crow and claim they do because they are the largest party in Parliament. Well this is a democracy. This is MMP. More people voted against asset sales than did for them. This amendment from Chris Hipkins actually means that the Government would have to come up with the kind of majority that should be in place for a matter of this order. 
The other Supplementary Order Paper I want to refer to is the one in my name. It makes sure that the Royal assent is not granted until the Finance and Expenditure Committee re-examines the bill in satisfactory detail and recommends to the House that it be passed. I sat on the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a brief time during this consideration and I simply could not believe the attitude— 
Dr David Clark 
: The whole time. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Dr Clark who has not had enough air time in this debate sat on the committee many many more times than I did. The committee meeting that I saw that I particularly could not believe was the one where the Government decided that it would not get officials to go away and find out whether power prices are in fact higher in private companies than they are in State-owned enterprises. That was put before the committee officials were asked to look at it and the Government would not give those officials the time they needed to go away and do that work. They gave such a limited time to be able to consider issues like that. They rushed through the debate. We have all heard the stories in this House of how select committee submitters were treated. They were given incredibly short periods of time were patronised by Government members and were asked by Government members like Maggie Barry whom they voted for and whom they supported. That is outrageous. It should not be part of our select committee process. This select committee which had over 1500 submissions was not able to hear those submissions in any kind of detail. It was not able to hear proper arguments. 
The Government in this case really truly showed its colours because it backed the 1 percent. It backed the 1 percent of submitters who came to the committee and said they support this bill. That is whom the Government backs just like it does in every other walk of life; it backs the 1 percent. The 99 percent of submitters who came to the select committee and said that they want to make sure that this is stopped and that they want a proper say about this have been ignored by this Government. That is why my Supplementary Order Paper has been put up to tell this Government to show some democracy and show some commitment to the process of having people come in front of a committee and have their say. Instead people were attacked people were not given enough time and the process by the officials who I am sure were working very hard through this process was truncated by members opposite. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR (Labour—West Coast - Tasman) 
: 
 I have not spoken in this debate before because my colleagues have been doing such a very good job but I had to take the opportunity to come down and speak in this Chamber for two reasons. Firstly this is so important for my electorate. Solid Energy is one of our assets that that Government is going to sell to its mates so it is important that I speak out on behalf of my electorate. Secondly I have also taken the liberty of the democratic process to submit an amendment a very minor one which adds one word to the title of this bill. It adds the word “up” to the title of Mixed Ownership Model Bill because this is indeed mixed-up ownership. 
You can take two perspectives on that. If the Government is right in the fact that it is offering opportunities to a wide range of mums and dads in this country then I guess mixed-up will be the ownership model that it is referring to. More accurate though is the mixed-up management approach that each and every one of these State-owned enterprises will take in the interim period to their final sale. As a fine example of that—and the Minister for State Owned Enterprises over there will know—Solid Energy through the late 1990s and through the period when it was getting ready for sale under the previous National Government in fact ran an outrageous regime of management that saw shortcuts taken and in my view contributed in no small way to what we saw at Pike River unfortunately. That mixed-up ownership model which would be a more accurate title for this bill in my view was a mixed-up management model for each and every one of these State-owned enterprises which have a vital role to play in the infrastructure and development of this country. That mixed-up ownership and management will lead to in my view inferior outcomes for us as a country and superior outcomes for all those people who might want to invest in it. 
This debate is about sovereignty in this country. The title and commencement of the bill are absolutely crucial because in my view they do not accurately reflect what is going on here. This is the sell-out of New Zealand. This is the right to control our destiny through our ability to manage our infrastructure into the future. This National Government is going to hand over to a mixed bunch of owners it says or mixed-up bunch of owners the rights to extract monopolistic dividends in many cases because in my view the problem with electricity of course—and anyone who studies the market will know—is that the less investment that occurs in the electricity sector the more the owners can extract from their existing investments. And so that will see the rundown of our infrastructure up and down this country and excessive profits put into the hands of Mr Brownlee and his wealthy mates who can afford to come along and purchase the shares. Those mixed-up owners will not be there in the best interests of New Zealand and that is why I have put forward my amendment that adds the word “up” to clause 1—not in a flippant way but in an accurate way that in simple terms more accurately reflects what will happen with these companies. The unfortunate outcome will be that this country will suffer in the long term. 
This is about our ability to own and control our destiny into the future. That Government is prepared to put that destiny into the hands of people who will extract as much money as they can from the assets that my father my grandfather and the people before them contributed to sometimes with their lives and with their hearts and souls to build a better country. The National Government is now prepared to hand that to people who have the privilege of more money when at this very point each and every New Zealander owns those assets. This is an outrageous act of treachery and in any other country it would be called treason. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Is that acceptable Mr Chair? 
Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR 
: In any other country that is what it would be called. Although the Minister for Canterbury Earthquake Recovery over there is somewhat sensitive to it that is the truth of what is happening in this Chamber this evening and he very well knows that. 
SCOTT SIMPSON (National—Coromandel) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 I must say I do appreciate receiving the call. It has been a considerable amount of time since I have had an opportunity to speak in the Committee stage on this bill the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. I am very pleased to be able to talk about the title and commencement clauses of this bill. The title as has been traversed is an extremely misleading title—the Mixed Ownership Model Bill. I prefer Damien O’Connor’s submission that it should be the “Mixed Up Ownership Model Bill”. That would be a far more appropriate title for the bill. 
But actually I want to talk to the amendment that the Minister for State Owned Enterprises wants to make to the title of the bill. Not only does the Minister want to split the bill into two bills but Supplementary Order Paper 41 in his name would see the title of one of the pieces of legislation amended to the “State-Owned Enterprises Amendment Act”. Well that is an even more misleading title than the one we started with. This is not an amendment to our State-owned enterprises; this is the gutting of our State-owned enterprises. This is taking away State-owned enterprises from public ownership. This is taking from the many and giving to the 1 percent. That is what this bill is all about. 
This is not some small technical amendment to our State-owned enterprises; this is a fundamental change to our public assets and the public good that they can be used for. That is what— 
Dr Cam Calder 
: We’re keeping them. You sold them all off. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: Sorry what was that? 
Dr Cam Calder 
: We’re keeping them. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: Cam Calder says that the Government is keeping the assets. Well I tell you what if Cam Calder wanted the Government to keep the assets he would support some of the other Supplementary Order Papers on this part. He would support the 75 percent supermajority amendment in the name of Chris Hipkins if he really wanted the Government to actually hold on to these assets. But coming back to Mr Ryall’s—[ 
Interruption 
] Say that again. Say that again Mr Calder. No he still does not want it on the record. 
I come back to Mr Ryall’s Supplementary Order Paper 41 to split the bill into two and also to have the ability for the Governor-General by Order in Council to commence the Acts on different dates. This is actually something that could be supported by the Labour Opposition because we want to see how big the public backlash is against the sale of assets when the first asset is sold. We want the Government to feel the burn of the public backlash against the sale of that first asset and for the Government to have the opportunity to see the error of its ways and to stop the process right there. It should stop the process right now. It does not have a majority. It does not have a mandate. It does not have support for this but it will really see— 
Hon Christopher Finlayson 
: Who won the party vote in Palmerston North? 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: I am interested to hear what Chris Finlayson says about the party vote in Palmerston North. Chris Finlayson said: “What about the party vote in Palmerston North?”. Well I am glad that that member has raised that issue because I have run the numbers. I have run the numbers and 55 percent of people in Palmerston North voted for parties that were opposed to selling off our State-owned assets—55 percent of people in Palmerston North opposed selling off our State assets at the election. So I know that my electorate Mr Finlayson—who does not have an electorate; could never win an electorate—the people whom I represent are opposed to selling off State-owned assets. I am glad I am pleased I thank Mr Finlayson for raising that issue because I am very pleased to tell the Committee about that. 
I would also like to address the amendment in the name of Grant Robertson and that is to take this bill back to the Finance and Expenditure Committee because this Government ran roughshod over the political process the democratic process. It belittled members. Maggie Barry acted like she was on a talkback show bullying people who submitted to the committee and asking people what party they voted for. That was the way this was handled. National members cut the process short. They brought the bill back to the House 5 weeks early. People are saying that this is because the Government does not want to see what the result of the referendum is. 
I know why the Government brought the bill back early. It is because its majority in the House is so wafer-thin that it does not want to lose John Banks. It does not want to lose John Banks because it knows it is in deep deep trouble if it does not have even that one-vote majority. That is what the rush is about. This Government knows that if the police inquiry finds anything wrong with John Banks’ donations its majority is gone—that is how thin its majority is in this House—and it has no mandate to sell off these assets. So I personally support part of Tony Ryall’s amendment because it will give this Government the opportunity to see how deeply deeply unpopular this policy is. 
MAGGIE BARRY (National—North Shore) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: It is getting close but I am going to call Holly Walker. 
HOLLY WALKER (Green) 
: 
 Thank you very much Mr Chair and thank you to those honourable members for supporting me in taking a call on the title and commencement of this bill. I tried to take a call in Part 1 and I tried to take a call in Part 2 and I am very pleased that I finally get to take one on the title and commencement. And what is the title of this bill? The Mixed Ownership Model Bill—“MOM”. Is it not appropriate: motherhood and apple pie? What a lovely euphemistic title the Government has come up with for this bill. And is it not appropriate that that euphemistic title that misleading title which disguises the true purpose of this bill which is the sale of public assets should have the word “mom” in it when we have heard so much about the mum and dad investors—those mythical mum and dad investors who are going to benefit from the sale of State assets that will result from this bill? Apparently they are the ones who are going to benefit. But we know that this will not be the case. We know two things. We know that 95 percent of New Zealanders will not be purchasing shares in these assets when they are sold. And we also know that 100 percent of New Zealanders already own these assets. They are public assets and they are owned by every mum and dad and also every mum and mum every dad and dad and every other kind of New Zealander. They already own these assets. 
So I think a better title for the bill would be the “Privatisation of Public Assets Bill” because that is what it does. It is nothing to do with mums and dads or moms or Americanisms or euphemistic misleading titles; it is simply the privatisation of public assets. But speaking of mums and dads and speaking of families I want to bring a young person’s perspective into this debate—something that has been somewhat lacking I feel so far. I want to talk about the intergenerational impacts of this bill because it is not just about mums and dads it is also about children and it is about grandparents—it is about the intergenerational impacts of this bill. For that reason I suggest another alternative title which is the “Intergenerational Inequity Bill”. 
I want to speak briefly to a Supplementary Order Paper that is on the Table in the name of my co-leader here Russel Norman. Supplementary Order Paper 70 talks about the commencement: delaying the commencement of this bill and making it ineligible to receive the Royal assent until such time as the country has held an indicative referendum on the question of whether the public supports the sale of State assets. I have been out collecting signatures for this petition for this citizens initiated referendum and I can tell you some very interesting intergenerational trends in the people who have been stopping to sign that petition. I have found in my experience out on the streets of Wellington collecting those signatures that there are two types of people who are very likely to stop and sign. Those are older people and they are young people. I think that that shows and demonstrates the intergenerational impacts of this bill and the fact that opposition to the sale of State assets bridges the gap of generations. Indeed you can see that in the fact that both Grey Power and the New Zealand University Students Association are two of the core coalition members who are organising and campaigning for this petition. 
When I talk to the older generation when they stop to sign this petition they talk about having seen the mistakes of the 1980 and 1990s having seen the damaging consequences of the sale of State assets for the whole country—economically socially for consumers at the household level and for the nation at the Government level and at the country level. They say to me: “Don’t make the same mistake again. Don’t make the same mistake twice.” That is what the older New Zealanders are saying to us and to the parliamentarians in this House and to the Government: “Don’t make the same mistake again.” That is why the bill should be called the “Intergenerational Inequity Bill”. 
Then I talk to younger New Zealanders people like me. I was born in 1982. I grew up in a New Zealand that was fundamentally shaped and changed by the sale of State assets in the 1980s and 1990s and the neo-liberal economic policies of that time. My generation and the generations younger than me are daring to imagine that in fact we might not have to make the same mistakes again that we might be able to do it differently and that we might be able to put up an alternative vision. 
TIM MACINDOE (National—Hamilton West) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The question is that the question be now put. As many are of that opinion will please say Aye to the contrary No. The Ayes have it. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I want to raise several points with you. The first is that I think it is almost unprecedented that when the Leader of the Opposition seeks a call in this sort of a debate you accept a closure motion. That is highly unusual. The second point that I want to raise is that we have several members here who have been here for several hours over several parts of the bill and who have not had a single call on any part of the bill. It is therefore outrageous that you are accepting a closure motion in those circumstances. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Can I first of all say I never saw the Leader of the Opposition rise. Can I point out to the member Speaker’s ruling 10/4: Once the chairperson has accepted a closure motion and commenced to put the question it does not matter how far the chairperson gets; under [Standing Order 51] the time to report progress is deferred until the closure and any consequential questions are determined.” So whenever a question is being put to the Committee the interruption of business is deferred until the question is determined—Standing Order 51. I have to say I am sorry I did not see the Leader of the Opposition stand. Had I done so I would have called him. But the reality is that I have called that the question be now put and the question is that the question be now put. As many are of that opinion will please say Aye to the contrary No. The Ayes have it. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is incumbent upon you to look at who is seeking the call before you choose—[ 
Interruption 
] 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! There is a point of order on the floor. There is no sound. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: —to accept a closure motion. To say that you did not see the Leader of the Opposition who is sitting immediately in front of you is simply unbelievable. The Leader of the Opposition was seeking the call. It is very unusual for you to reject that call and then claim that you did not see him when he was sitting right there. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The reality is that I had made the determination because we have had 20 speeches on this part. Everybody who had a Supplementary Order Paper has spoken. I have made that decision to take the closure. I apologise to the Leader of the Opposition because as I said had I seen him I would have acknowledged him—most certainly. But I did not. So the question is that the question be now put. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Point of order. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I have already put the question. I have called the vote and that has to be taken as under Speaker’s ruling 10/4. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. In your first response to Chris Hipkins you set out the rationale as to why you did not call the Leader of the Opposition. In your second response to him you changed the goalposts and you used another rationale for that. We are in your hands. It is your responsibility. The Leader of the Opposition is not 3 feet high. He is a pretty tall bloke. He sits adjacent to you. He did seek the call. I would point this out to you: before you put the vote there were at least two members the chief whip on our side and me attempting to gain points of order. We are not shrinking violets; we do have reasonable lungs. For some reason you did not take those points of order; you proceeded directly to the vote. So I put it to you with respect that you have erred on three counts: first that points of order were being raised by two members; second that you did not call the Leader of the Opposition. As you have quite rightly said and there is precedent for this— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: No there’s not. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: There is precedent for not interjecting during a point of order. Third you have given two differing explanations as to why you did not call a point of order. We are the minority. We rely on you to ensure that our rights are preserved and we are in a very difficult position that is not through our making. 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 You have called on I think quite rightly Speaker’s ruling 10/4. I note here that it was actually a ruling from Mr Hunt in 2003 and if my memory serves me correctly it was in response to similar types of points of order that I raised at the time when the new Leader of the Opposition Dr Don Brash was seeking a call and if I think for a little bit longer I will be able to recall the debate. The ruling came about because we went down the process of calling the Speaker back and having the Speaker make a ruling from the Chair. You have acted totally appropriately. Any suggestion that there is a precedent for the Leader of the Opposition getting a preference in a call would be valid only if it were in fact a precedent. The idea that it might have been a courtesy for the Leader of the Opposition taking the call would have been stronger from the Labour Party members had there been not so many others of them standing trying to seek the call ahead of their leader at the time. [ 
Interruption 
] 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! There is a point of order on the floor and it is to be heard in silence. It is to be terse and to the point. 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: That is a very salient point. If you were unable to sight Mr Shearer at the time it comes as no surprise to me because most of his own party were trying to take the call ahead of him. So any idea that you were supposed to say: “Oh no on a precedent although I have now determined that this debate should be concluded I must go to the Leader of the Opposition.” I think is an extremely unreasonable point and I want to support fully the fact that you have not only decided to terminate the debate but in fact called the vote and held the vote. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 The problem the Leader of the Opposition has is that I recall it was you not me who indicated that in the normal course of events it is if not a precedent a protocol that when the Leader of the Opposition calls you would call him. In fact it was not me it was you who admitted that and said that had you seen him—you managed to see Mr Brownlee I take it when he rose for a point of order—had you seen the Leader of the Opposition you would have called him out of tradition or precedent or whatever. 
The second point I would raise with you is that it is the case now—and it is the case of every Committee stage as you will be aware—that members en masse from various political parties seek the call. If I am correct it is normally the Chairperson who determines who gets the call and often that is done on seniority. I have seen you call members and indicate that you have called a member perhaps because they are close to the front or in the second row. But certainly that is a precedent in this Chamber and if it is the case that we should sit down and not seek a call that would indicate that the closure could be put. So Mr Brownlee fails there as well. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Can I just point out to members on both sides of the Chamber Speaker’s ruling 79/1 which means that members are not in order in reflecting on the actions of the Chair. I also want to point members to Speaker’s ruling 66/4 which I was referring to indirectly in Speaker’s ruling 10/4 which says: “Once a vote has commenced it has to be completed.” 
The question is that the motion be agreed to. [ 
Interruption 
] No I have ruled. The vote must be taken according to the Speaker’s ruling 66/4. [ 
Interruption 
] New point of order? 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The point of order that I wish to raise is whether it is a requirement for the Chair to deal with a point of order before they begin a vote. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: All I can say is to refer the member to Speaker’s ruling 10/4—that whenever a question has been put to the House the interruption of business is deferred until the question is determined. And that means it should be done now. Secondly I come back to Speaker’s ruling 66/4: “Once a vote has commenced it has to be completed.” As the Chair of the Committee I am guided by Speakers’ rulings and the Speaker’s ruling is quite specific. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I would like to draw your attention to the specific wording in Speaker’s ruling 10/3 to which you have referred which says: “appointed for the interruption of business any further motion”—it is talking about a motion not a point of order—and in Speaker’s ruling 10/4 it talks about the closure motion: “the time to report progress is deferred”. Again it is not about a point of order and it is a standing convention in this House that the points of order take precedence over other matters of House business. In this case you had not in fact started to put the vote; you had merely started to call for a vote ignoring two points of order that were before you including from the senior Government whip. I would respectfully submit that it is within the ambit of Speaker’s rulings 10/3— 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: Opposition whip. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: —sorry I meant the Opposition whip—and 10/4 that you should legitimately have considered those points of order and given your ruling on the point of order before attempting to put the vote. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I have heard enough. I am going to refer the members again to the following: whenever a question has been put the interruption of business is deferred until the question is determined. I have put the question and the vote will be taken. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 45 in the name of Dr David Clark to clause 1 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Rt Hon Winston Peters to clause 1 be agreed to: 
to replace “Mixed Ownership Model Act 2012” with “Asset Privatisation Act 2012”.  
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to.  
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to clause 1 be agreed to: 
to replace “Mixed Ownership Model Act 2012” with “Privatisation of Public Property Act 2012”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to.  
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Damien O’Connor to clause 1 be agreed to: 
after the word “Mixed” insert “Up”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 1 be agreed to.  
Ayes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Clause 1 agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 53 in the name of Chris Hipkins to clause 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 70 in the name of Dr Russel Norman to clause 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: We have an amendment in the name of the honourable member Grant Robertson which was an amendment requiring referral to the Finance and Expenditure Committee prior to the commencement set out on Supplementary Order Paper 58. That is out of order for lack of certainty regarding the commencement date. The proposed amendment relies on an indeterminate event—Speaker’s ruling 117/2. The next amendment is in the name of the honourable member Hone Harawira. It is a typescript amendment to insert a new subclause (1AA) making the commencement contingent on the support of the Waitangi Tribunal. That also is out of order for lack of certainty regarding the commencement date. The proposed amendment relies on an indeterminate event and that is covered under Speaker’s ruling 117/2. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 47 in the name of the Hon David Parker to clause 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 49 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; Mana 1. 
Noes 71 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway to clause 2 be agreed to: 
replace subclauses (1) and (2) with: 
(1)This act comes into force on a date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council except as otherwise provided for in this section. 
(2)One or more Orders in Council may be made bringing different provisions into force on different dates. 
(3)Part 2 and Schedules 1 and 2 come into force on the day after the date on which this Act receives the Royal Assent. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 2 be agreed to. 
Ayes 61 
New Zealand National 59; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 2; Mana 1. 
Clause 2 agreed to. 
Progress reported. 
House resumed. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I move  
That the report be adopted 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the report be adopted. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand National 59; Maori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Report adopted. 
The House adjourned at 10.08 p.m.