4. Question No. 4—Justice (Treaty Principles Bill)Dr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT) to the Associate Minister of Justice (Treaty Principles Bill)Question No. 4—Justice (Treaty Principles Bill)4. Dr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT) to the Associate Minister of Justice (Treaty Principles Bill): Why is the Government introducing a Treaty Principles Bill?Hon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Justice (Treaty Principles Bill)): Next year it will be half a decade since this House passed the Treaty of Waitangi Act saying that there was such a thing as the principles of the Treaty. Since that time Parliament has been silent about their definition while the courts the Waitangi Tribunal the Public Service and many others have had their say. This Government is introducing a Treaty principles bill to democratise that process of defining the Treaty principles because for the first time through this representative House of Parliament all New Zealanders will have a say about what our founding document and our constitutional future means. Dr Parmjeet Parmar: How will the Treaty principles bill honour the Treaty? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: The Treaty of Waitangi or Te Tiriti of Waitangi as our founding document is enormously important to our past but also to our future and our conception of ourselves as a country. The fact that it has been interpreted through a lens of principles upon which most New Zealanders have had not a chance to have any influence or say I believe has diminished its mana and made it a source of division when it should be a source of unity. The Treaty principles bill and the debate surrounding it is designed to enhance the mana of Te Tiriti and ensure that all New Zealanders believe they are invested in its principles. Dr Parmjeet Parmar: Will the Treaty principles bill abolish or rewrite the Treaty like some people have claimed? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Absolutely not and as some people who I believe have been mischievous—Hon Willie Jackson: Who? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —misinforming the public and I heard Willie Jackson as if on cue say Who?". I think he could answer that question for himself. Some mischievous people have made false claims. It is impossible to abolish the Treaty. What we are doing is democratising the process of defining its principles which has been going on for the last 50 years almost but without the vast majority of New Zealanders having any kind of input or say into it. This will enhance the Treaty. It certainly will not rewrite the Treaty itself let alone get rid of it; it will simply democratise the definition of its principles. Hon Willie Jackson: Who is right: the Prime Minister who has said that the Treaty principles bill is divisive and unhelpful or the ACT Party who think it's all about freedom at the expense of Māori? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well the Treaty principles bill does have the potential to be divisive particularly when certain leaders in Māoridom who should know better threaten violence and uprisings instead of actually engaging in a democratic debate. So in that sense the Prime Minister is absolutely right and when it comes to the characterisation of my statements I don't believe that this debate does come at the expense of Māori. So I actually can't agree with my own statement because that member has completely mischaracterised it and misrepresenting other people's views is a major problem in any public debate. I hope that member will stop doing it. Hon Willie Jackson: Which iwi are supporting the bill—is it Ngāti Whātua Tainui or his own tribe Ngāti Rēhia—and what feedback has he got in terms of support for the bill? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well I've heard there is support for the bill from people up and down this country and those people are Māori they're non-Māori they're old they're young they're from north they're from south they're from down they're from town and they're from country. There is widespread support for the idea. In fact the member may have seen opinion polling by Curia which found that 60 percent of New Zealanders support the principles in the bill and 18 percent oppose it and maybe it's time for the member to get on board. Dr Parmjeet Parmar: What does he say to people who claim the Treaty principles bill is an attack on Māori? Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well that's an excellent and well-timed question because there are clearly people who would like to make the Treaty principles bill a debate between races. People that say that have bought in to the fetish of racial identity that it is our race; it is our ethnicity; it is our background and ancestry that defines us more than anything else. But the truth is that there are Māori who agree with this particular kaupapa; there are Māori who disagree.Rawiri Waititi: Who?Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: There are non-Māori who agree; there are non-Māori who agree. I think we just saw an example of that right now because people won't be able to see but off screen Rawiri Waititi is saying "Who?" Who are these Māori who agree? Nicole McKee's sitting beside him and she said "Me". I think that sums up this debate perfectly well and I think Rawiri Waititi: my message for you is keep heckling brother because you help more than you realise.Rawiri Waititi: Supplementary.SPEAKER: Supplementary?Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: No it's a point of order.SPEAKER: A point of order.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Mr Speaker I just want to seek confirmation from you based on some comments that various Ministers have made outside of the House that the Standing Orders and the conventions of this House continue to apply that an answer that a Minister gives in the House to a question from any member is an answer on behalf of the entirety of the Government not just that member's party.SPEAKER: Well I'm going to go back and have a look at what the arrangements were between 2002 and 2005 where there were different arrangements for Ministers inside one Government and I'll come back to you on that.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. It has always been the case under every confidence and supply or coalition agreement that where a Minister is speaking as a Minister in the House—clearly at question time they are answering questions as a Minister—they speak on behalf of the entire Government and are therefore bound by Cabinet collective responsibility which therefore means they speak on behalf of the whole Government. Now we've had some suggestion from Ministers that that is not what is happening. That would be a departure from all of the rules practices protocols and conventions of this House that no previous Government has made. When David Seymour delivers those answers I want to be clear from you that he is delivering them in accordance with every convention of this House on behalf of the whole of the Government.SPEAKER: Yeah well you're not going to get that now because between also 1999 and 2002—where there was a significant meltdown in Government arrangements at that time—there were various conventions put in place for the answering of questions by people who were Ministers inside a Government but representing a multitude of parties outside it. I want to go back and have a look at that and see where exactly we're at.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. Are you indicating that there has been a breakdown of the Government?SPEAKER: No I'm not. That is not a helpful comment and I would ask the very experienced member of Parliament not to trifle with the Chair.Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Point of order Mr Speaker. I may be able to assist. Every—SPEAKER: Well you know you do these things at your peril but away you go.Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Mr Speaker I may be able to help the member. Every answer I have given is as the Minister responsible around the intentions behind the kaupapa that I'm bringing on behalf of the Government. I have not portrayed myself—SPEAKER: That's enough.Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: No one second. I have not portrayed myself as representing any Cabinet decision.SPEAKER: That's enough. The honourable—sorry—Rawiri Waititi—Rawiri Waititi: Thank you.SPEAKER: The honourable member.Rawiri Waititi: I like your matakitetanga [prediction] Mr Speaker. Given the Associate Minister of Justice has become an expert in Te Tiriti o Waitangi can he tell me how many Māori chiefs signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi?Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well first of all it's approximately 500 but learning is a journey and I expect to learn more. Perhaps the member would like to come on this kaupapa with me.Rawiri Waititi: Has he spoken to both sides of the Treaty in regards to this bill—that's te Iwi Māori and also King Charles?Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well as we know our King is laid up with a few medical challenges at the moment. Thankfully there are many people the Māori people of New Zealand who are in very good health and I'd be very happy to speak to them every day."