Ball Darroch; Mallard TrevorDARROCH BALL (NZ First): It is a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on this legislation. Right from the start we will not be supporting this as we have not throughout the process. I do not think that anyone can really disagree in this House that this is one of the most important pieces of legislation that will be going through this House this year if not this term. It is a very difficult subject a very difficult area—very complex—and it is a huge ask for any Government to try to tackle that and to try to correct things. I think that—and it has been said in this House multiple times—every single person in this House every single party in this House wants to make things better. It is our collective responsibility to ensure that that is the case.I want to pick up on something that the Minister for Social Development said and has been saying throughout this whole process about trying to avoid adult agendas. It was highlighted and has been highlighted especially through the Committee of the whole House stage that there are many points of view both from parties' points of view about what the right answer is and the way that the legislation should be written and also individual points of view. What I saw today when I was standing outside with the delivery of that petition was the centre and really the heart of why we are doing what we are doing why we are going through this process and the changes that have to be made that need to be made. Really what it highlighted for me hearing all of those harrowing stories from men and women who have been in State care and have been abused is that my personal perspective rates a zero on the perspective of theirs and of the people who have lived through this on what this legislation means to them and how important it is not only for them—and they said it on the steps today—but for future generations for their children and for their grandchildren as well. That has really hammered home the importance for us to get it right in here.I said yesterday when I was speaking in the Committee of the whole House that it is vitally important especially in this legislation to ensure that it is 100 percent clear what the priorities are for this legislation. It is a large piece of legislation there are a lot of things in it but the No. 1 concern for every party that has been brought up was the family first" clause and issue and the lack of clarity that the legislation actually provides for people. It has been highlighted because the Minister and the National Government stand up and they look at the exact same piece of legislation and have an entirely different point of view from the Labour Party from the Māori Party from the Green Party and from the New Zealand First Party. It is entirely different. That is the main issue that we need to try to avoid. Unfortunately we believe that the Minister actually had it right the first time—the priority was clear and she has repeated it in this House as well. In these third readings she stood up and said that no one can deny that the priority is the safety—the care and protection of the children.But—and then there is always a but or a proviso—that is where the ambiguity comes in. The translation of what she says to what is written in legislation does not occur. She says that the "family first" priority is written clearly but there is ambiguity in this House when discussing it. I asked yesterday in the House—and I believe that everyone agreed including the Minister that there was ambiguity. The Minister said that she was going to come back and address it and she has not. The fact is that nothing has changed in the legislation. We have identified a huge problem through this process about the lack of clarity in the legislation no matter which opinion or angle or consideration you want to have—whether you think that "family first" clause or ideal should be the priority whether you think that the care and protection should be a priority or whether you think it should be both. It is just not clear in the legislation. That is the problem that New Zealand First has with this.I would genuinely like to ask any member of the National Government who is going to stand up: for a second put aside the bullet points that you have been given put aside all of the notes that have been passed to you by the Minister and stand up with the legislation and point out where it states that the No. 1 priority is clear and it is this. It does not exist. If we understand that at this late stage of this process then it is inevitable that there are going to be future issues. It is absolutely inevitable. The worry is for us and I think for this whole House including the National Government is that things will not change. We know now that things are not changing. We are still seeing the exact same things that have been happening for a very very long time. That is what ties in to the need for an inquiry. Just like it has been highlighted before how can we move forward and correct the mistakes that we have been making if we cannot identify what those mistakes were in the first place?The second issue that just does not get discussed in here and that New Zealand First has an issue with is the youth justice aspect. It was briefly mentioned that it is a good thing that 17-year-olds are included but that is probably the end of the discussion for everyone else in this House. The problem that we have got with that is that really it is just ideology and rhetoric. The opinion of people who stand up in this House and say that 17-year-olds should be included in the youth justice system is not based on evidence and is not based on fact.Hon Members: Yes it is.DARROCH BALL: It absolutely is not. I have stood up in this House multiple times and read out the evidence that has been provided which people use when they want to say that there is proof that 17-year-olds should be included in the youth justice system and it is contradictory. It is absolutely contradictory. What I challenge everybody in the Opposition who do want 17-year-olds to be included in the youth justice system to do is stand up and state what flaws there are in the youth justice system. Acknowledge that there are flaws in the youth justice system. Right now we have got an 80 to 90 percent reoffending rate in the Youth Court. The main reason why that occurs is that those young offenders do not get into the court system until they have offended and offended and offended and offended. It is written and acknowledged that the Youth Court is for highly recidivist individuals or high-level offenders. Is there any wonder why there is an 80 to 90 percent reoffending rate? They have offended 10 or 12 or 15 times before they get to the Youth Court. This Government's aim and intent in putting 17-year-olds into that court system is to target the highly recidivist high-level offending 17-year-olds. It wants to stop them from reoffending but it is putting them back into a failing system. It is a failing system.We heard from Jacinda Ardern yesterday complaining that there are not enough resources because of holding young people in remand in prisons in the youth justice system—lack of resources. Then in the next sentence she wants to extend the youth justice system with the same lack of resources. I am not saying that the problem with the youth justice system is not resources because it is. What I am saying is that that is only a small part of it. The whole system does not stop young people from getting to the courts in the first place and does not stop them from offending and getting put into the residence in the first place. That is why half of our adult prison population had previously been through the youth justice system—that is a fact. Including 17-year-olds in that will not solve the issue.We cannot support this legislation. We probably would have if the 17-year-olds issue in the youth justice system was sorted and if clarity was given in the legislation that stated what the priority was.Dr Parmjeet Parmar: Mr Speaker.Maureen Pugh: Mr Speaker.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard): Dr Parmjeet Parmar after a bit of debate—very good to see so many members keen."