Ngaro AlfredHon ALFRED NGARO (National): Madam Chairperson Tolley thank you. I rise to take a call on this Families Package (Income Tax and Benefits) Bill in the committee stage on Part 1. I suppose what tweaked my interest in taking a call was when Minister Robertson stood and made some comments and I suppose the comment from the Hon Amy Adams was just that if we look at clause 55 in Part 1 at new section MF 4F in regard to the calculation of instalments—the comments that the Hon Amy Adams made were just in regard to that in this process—it just seems that there is a penalising for younger children and we're talking specifically in regard to the amounts that are here. So if we talk about section MF 4F(4) in that calculation the prescribed amount here is the sum of the following amounts.Now the Minister did talk about this and tried to explain this but there still seems to be a discrepancy and so I'd like to see if the Minister can take the call. Subsection (4)(a): for the eldest dependent child for whom the person is a principal caregiver during the entitlement period"—and I'm reading from this just so that we can get the specific detail because it did seem that it was incongruent with what the Minister was saying.Hon Amy Adams: He said there was no difference.Hon ALFRED NGARO: So he said there was no difference. In subsection (4)(a) it is "(i) $4822 if the child is younger than 16: (ii) $5303 if the child is 16 or older:". I go down to subsection (4)(b): "for each dependent child for whom the person is a principal caregiver during the entitlement period other than the eldest dependent child 1 of the following … [is] applicable:"—and I'm reading from this particularly because this is a point that I think needs some clarification from the Minister—"(i) $3351 if the child is younger than 13: (ii) $3822 if the child is 13 14 [and] 15: [and] (iii) $4745 if the child is 16 or older:". Now that clearly delineates the fact that there are lesser amounts going to those younger children and I think that's a—Hon Amy Adams: That's right. They're penalising young families.Hon ALFRED NGARO: That's the point that we're trying to make. The Minister got up and tried to tell us that it wasn't. I don't want to use unhonourable words in this Chamber but I just would like the Minister to just give some clarity here. It just seems incongruent with what the Minister's trying to say and I was very specific to read that out because I wanted to sort of get some clarity around that. I know it's a technical point but it is critically important as well—particularly if you then look over to new section MF 4G and we know that the calculation instalments will extend themselves out from 1 July 2018 to 30 March 2019. So he's explained that and talked about that but I go back to the point in MF 4F—in that calculation in subsection (4)—where the prescribed amounts just do not seem to match up. Now I know the Minister in his attempt was trying to sort of explain that it's important but it just doesn't seem right. I think it's important for the Minister then to give some clarity. Look this is not just for those in the committee. There are those that are out there—we know that the media have already had calculations that are in the Dominion Post where family income packages are being calculated now. Families are now taking into consideration: will this be the package that gives them some benefits some gains? In fact I know in the Dominion Post it talked about the four different types of families where there would be a certain gain from this package. So I think it's important. This is not just clarity for the committee but clarity for our communities who are there. Some may be listening. There'll be beneficiary advocates that are out there saying "Let's look at this package. Let's see how actually it will benefit those." I just think that even though it's a small point and a technical point it's an important point. They need to know actually if they have younger children whether they will be penalised because of this. It just seems that on the face of it and in the reading of the bill that seems to be the case here.So I really would like to see the Minister take a call to be able to just clarify that. Who knows? The numbers may not be correct and if he could give us some clarity I just think that it would be important for those that are out there. I know that I've had calls from others that are in the community groups that are working with families that are looking at this package. Some have said "Look there are some benefits in it." They can see the gains that are being made. But I think the benefits are in the detail. I think that's really important—we need to have the member talk about that. So again I just reiterate it's really simple. It's a small call. New section MF 4F "Calculation … instalments" subsection (4) "Prescribed amount"—clearly from here as I'm reading it and I think as others are looking at this—I think it's a small point but a significant point. I'd like to see the Minister take a call answer the question to give us some clarity in regard to this because on the face of it it just seems that younger children are being penalised."