SpeechHon ALFRED NGARO (National): Thank you Madam Chair. So just following on from that line of questioning to the Minister in the chair the Hon Tracey Martin is one of the areas that the Minister has talked about in regards to preparation around assessments: can the Minister comment in regard to I suppose what's recently been coming up but relates to the Estimates in regards to the allocation of resource and intent around that assessment where there's been a number of cases where at the front line there have been challenges in regards to those assessments? We've had cases that have come before us where the assessments for instance have been more online—by teleconference rather than by person to person. I don't want to delve into the detail but I'm trying to stay high level. I can hear what the Minister's saying with the intent. Well it seems that we're not quite seeing that as it's rolling out at the front line and we're having a number of cases come up.Another case if I could bring it to the Minister's attention was just in regards to the youth justice facility for instance out in Manurewa where just recently that's happened. Again the intent in the Estimates was about providing a secure place for placements for those in youth residential facilities and yet what we're seeing is that that doesn't seem to be the case. The communities are now starting to ask these questions. So I asked it in Estimates in respect of the chair but this seems to be now being challenged in regards to what's happening on the front line as well. One last question which borders on parts of the Minister being involved in was just around child poverty and I hope I'm able to ask the Minister that question because the Minister for Children has some responsibility in regards to supporting that. It's just that in the child poverty indicators what we are still seeing is—in regards to children in hardship and benefit-dependent households—more of an increase rather than a decrease in that fact and yet it's quite clear in the Estimates that part of the plan and the purpose was to see the reduction. Yet in the 10 key indicators—CPIs: child poverty indicators—what we are seeing too in particular around those in child benefit - dependent households prior to COVID there still is an increase. So I wonder if the Minister can make some comment to that.Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister for Children): Just to address the two issues first—the member talked about challenges on the front line around assessments—the initial question was with regard to assessments during the COVID period so that was what I was talking about. With regard to assessments and being challenged on the front line I'm assuming the member is switching from the number of assessments and how those assessments were done to actually individual assessments that are now being challenged—so were they assessed appropriately? I will not stand here and say that Oranga Tamariki is still not making steps to improve from who they were as Child Youth and Family. So there are still challenges and we need to see those challenges come forward. They need to be owned by the agency. They need to be owned by myself and Government and then actions need to be taken to improve on the social work practices that are on the front line.Part of what we are also seeing is when social workers who are not of a standard to deliver the protection and care that we expect as a nation for our children need to leave the service of Oranga Tamariki. Part of what we are seeing inside the noises around this particular topic is some of those people having to leave the service of Oranga Tamariki because as social workers their standard is not high enough. It is a journey—still a journey—and the member knows that to be true but it must be one that shows progress to the New Zealand people. So I take on board his comments around assessment and I require the agency to own when an assessment has not been appropriate move in find out why and fix it. I still require that of them. They have the resourcing to do so; they need to continue to do so.With regard to youth justice the member I think is referring to a recent article in the newspaper where two young people broke through a window and escaped out into the general public though both those young people are now back with us and inside the youth justice system. Quite rightly the New Zealand public again has the right to ask questions. How did this happen? What action is being taken to stop it from happening again? There is an internal investigation happening now inside the youth justice part of Oranga Tamariki to clarify how this came about. It is my expectation that when that has been finished as much of it that can be made public should be made public because every part of the re-creation of this agency must be about New Zealanders trusting that they are doing their job they are not hiding behind privacy or anything else when it comes to accountability about how they are delivering. I would say however we don't put barbed wire fences around our youth justice facilities. So we have this constant tension between incarcerating young people who need to be incarcerated but at the same time making sure that we are still keeping hope that these young people have an opportunity to change the path which they are on and be better human beings for New Zealand.With regard to the last part of the member's question I apologise to the member that I'm not going to be able to give a massively in-depth answer to what he asked me about. I'll go away and endeavour to do that in writing. But I think one of the things that we are going to have to accept as a nation in a post-COVID world is that there are going to be more of our families that before housing costs and after housing costs are actually going to be sitting at a level where we as a Government—whoever is sitting on this side of the House after 19 September—is going to have to address how we better support our families and move forward on what are now targets in legislation to address child poverty inside New Zealand.CHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson): Before I call the member—thank you—can I just say that the member and the Minister probably went well outside the scope of the Estimates but I thought the question and the answer were both given very respectfully and allowed them to run but if we could—that's my error but I found it very interesting and I shouldn't have allowed myself to have been distracted. So if the member the Hon Tim Macindoe could return to the Estimates that would be appreciated.