English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:609;Page:6629] 
3.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Is it her Government’s policy that ownership of the seabed and foreshore lies with the Crown and does this mean that Maori will never gain ownership of the seabed and foreshore? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister) 
 on behalf of the 
 Prime Minister 
: It is the Government’s policy that we will act to uphold rights of public access to and use of the foreshore and seabed for all New Zealanders while at the same time protecting Maori customary rights. 
Hon Bill English 
: As the Prime Minister would not answer that question will she answer this one: is the Government’s proposed legislation intended to prevent Maori proving customary title to the seabed and foreshore? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: We are at a very early stage of discussions but what I can say is that there is no intention to use legislation to prevent Maori from establishing customary rights. 
Stephen Franks 
: Will the Prime Minister guarantee that the customary rights deal that the Government is seeking will not mean that a Pakeha might be stopped from throwing a fishing line off a beach while his Maori neighbour carries on? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I think it depends on what his Maori neighbour is carrying on doing. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: On reflection I wonder whether the Minister— 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Mr Speaker “carries on” has a specific meaning that I was trying to avoid in that context. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no. I wonder whether the Minister could actually address the question. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Customary rights may exist for some groups as they do in many societies. They are established by legal processes that we hope legislation will help to clarify. General rights of access and usage will be ensured by legislation. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I ask the Prime Minister to take some legal advice on this matter and understand that the Court of Appeal has said that a right of Maori ownership and title—and a customary right as well—may well exist now; if that is the case does the Government propose legislation to foreclose on that customary right and title in respect of all of the seabed that Maori are claiming on? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Customary title can only arise out of customary rights. There is no intention to legislate to override customary rights. They are established historical rights and guaranteed by the treaty. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why cannot the Government just state inParliament what it has worked so hard to get New Zealanders to believe in public—that its proposed legislation is intended to prevent Maori from proving customary title to the seabed and the foreshore; and why cannot the Prime Minister say that here and now having dodged the answer five times already today? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: There is no intention to legislate to override customary rights. I note the member was unable to state his position at all describing it as “irrelevant in any case”. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why are a number of editorial writers in this country firmly of the opinion and writing articles on the abolition of that right by way of law—a position the Prime Minister firmly planted in their minds—yet in this House she has not had the integrity to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. That is an indictment on a member’s integrity and is out of order. The member will rephrase the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why has she not shown sufficient respect for this institution to stand and give us a plain direct and honest answer of the nature she imparted to editorial writers in this country when the issue first broke? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The Government bears no responsibility for editorial writers in New Zealand. 
Stephen Franks 
: Can I take it from the Prime Minister’s eventual answer to my previous question that she will not rule out in the deal she wants the possibility of areas of beach and seabed where Maori have rights that their Pakeha neighbours cannot share? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If a group of people whoever they are have customary rights those rights pertain to that group. 
Hon Bill English 
: Given the Prime Minister’s refusal six times in this House today to answer a direct question about whether the Government intends to extinguish Maori customary title can we now draw the conclusion that the Government does not intend to legislate to extinguish Maori customary title? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If the member cares to read the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act he will find that the Maori Land Court does not actually have the power to grant customary title. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can the Prime Minister give the House for the last time one very clear answer—does the Government intend to introduce legislation to change the current import of the law as reported by the Court of Appeal to the extent that it will remove the customary title rights of Maori to the seabed and foreshore; yes or no? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Members keep asking a question about something that does not exist—customary title. Customary rights exist in New Zealand. The Maori Land Court is unable to grant customary title. One of the issues required to be addressed is how legislation can provide clearly for Maori customary rights while preserving the rights of all New Zealanders for access and usage.