Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:624;Page:19709] 
12.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Housing 
: What concerns if any does he have about poor incentives in the social welfare system in light of John Tamihere’s statement that “We’ve got a range of poor incentives. We say to people ‘you stay in a state house at 25% gross’ and we’re teaching them to be crooks. There might be four income earners in there—we’ll never know it.” and what is he doing about them? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Housing) 
: 
 This Government has made and is continuing to make changes to ensure that proper incentives are in place in the social welfare and housing systems wherever they are required. One recent example part of the Working for Families package that affects both areas is that we no longer abate the accommodation supplement from the first dollar of earnings. 
Rodney Hide 
: How can New Zealanders take the Minister seriously when his colleague John Tamihere said that he is “very smarmy very clever but no substance.” and that he “deserves” to “wear all the bulls..t that’ll come” because of his policy failures—statements that Mr Tamihere has repeatedly refused to retract? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I will let people make up their own minds. 
Hon David Carter 
: How does the Minister justify his housing incentives which allow a State house to be occupied by a family with a declared net annual income exceeding $115000; and is John Tamihere not just telling the truth when he calls the Minister “smarmy” and states that his housing policy is a mess? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: It may help to tell the House how people’s income is rated for a Housing New Zealand Corporation house. To be eligible for an income-related rent a tenant and partner need to provide income statements for themselves for the past 52 weeks. Those should include Work and Income payments salary and wages and accident compensation payments. Tenants need to list all those residing in the property. The corporation also requests information about savings investments and other sources of regular income such as family support and payments from boarders flatters and adult children. I should point out that only 9 percent of Housing New Zealand tenants are in houses on a market rent and nearly all of them got their tenancy under a National Government. 
Jill Pettis 
: Can the Minister please advise what reports the Government has received on the success of the income-related rent system? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The Housing New Zealand Corporation has informed me that over 98 percent of new tenants qualify for an income-related rent with over 90 percent of existing tenants qualifying. That means that over 56000 families or more than 170000 people are benefiting from the restoration of income-related rents. The average household is $35 a week better off. The last Government sold off 13000 houses but also charged that vulnerable group top-dollar market rents to encourage tenants to move out so that it could easily sell off those houses. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: If news media reports are correct that the Labour Party is now undergoing a process of reconciliation and healing and in light of the claims of rampant fraud in Housing New Zealand made by the Minister’s former associate social services Minister does the Minister intend to welcome the assistance of Mr Tamihere with his interest and expertise in the area of fraud to assist him in exposing the widespread criminal activity that is apparently taking place in his portfolio under his nose? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No. 
Sue Bradford 
: Does the Minister believe that someone who thinks that people who live in State houses tend to criminality and that one of the Government’s best housing policies is the one teaching them to be crooks actually belongs in the Labour Party? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: There is no ministerial responsibility for that. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. There is clearly some enthusiasm for the Minister to answer that question. I think that if he were to seek the leave of the House to answer it we would certainly all agree. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Does the Minister not agree that on that question and on all of Mr John Tamihere’s allegations it has now come down to a matter of credibility; and how galling is it for a person who believes he has lived a life of blameless excellence to find that he is disbelieved with allegations made by a man who has two convictions for forgery and uttering and five drink-driving convictions who has admitted he lied about receiving a six-figure golden handshake and falsified his tax return and who has just been turned over by the Serious Fraud Office yet he is being told he is believable— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The member cannot make those allegations of criminal behaviour in the House. The early parts refer to matters of record but the latter parts did not refer to matters of record at all and were out of order. The member is going far too far. One could talk about falsifying one’s declaration on marital settlements for example without any evidence. 
Rodney Hide 
: The White report shows that Mr Tamihere did not fill out his tax return correctly. He did not declare his income as required by the law. We have already tabled the High Court decision where Mr Tamihere admits to two counts of forgery and two counts of uttering. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: It depends what words people use. Mr Prebble said that Mr Tamihere had falsified his tax return and that was not what was found by the White report at all. The White report was quite clear that the responsibility for paying that tax rested with the employer. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I am happy to withdraw that. I think we have enough allegations. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for doing that but I also remind him that the Minister has no ministerial responsibility for John Tamihere. If we could just get to the question it would be good. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: That is not the question. The question is about the Minister’s credibility. How galling is it for a person who believes he lives a life of blameless excellence to find that he is not believed when he has had allegations made against him by a person who has been convicted of forgery twice and for the public to now believe that person’s allegation that the Minister is “smarmy” and has “no substance”? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I think the claim made by Mr Tamihere was that we have a range of poor incentives that people stay in State houses and that we do not know whether there are four income earners in a house and we will never know. I point out in terms of credibility that in fact we do know. There was a lot of noise in the House before but I explained to people that we do know the incomes of all people who are in Housing New Zealand Corporation houses. 
Rodney Hide 
: Madam Speaker. 
Hon Annette King 
: Good God! 
Rodney Hide 
: Annette King is calling out when I am supposed to be asking a question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: You have not started yet Mr Hide. Would you please ask the question. 
Rodney Hide 
: I would if she would be quiet for a change. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I think that was unnecessary. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: It was a comment directed at you Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Yes it was directed at me. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: He said “you”. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Yes he did say “you” actually. 
Rodney Hide 
: I did not. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is what I heard. 
Rodney Hide 
: I said “she”. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would you please ask your question. 
Rodney Hide 
: Will the Minister be taking any advice from Mr Tamihere regarding matters of fraudulent behaviour in his portfolio in respect of money for which he is responsible or will he be looking for Mr Tamihere to retract his statements? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: In relation to Mr Tamihere’s concerns about the Housing New Zealand Corporation not knowing the incomes of people in its houses I have just pointed out that we do. We know every single income earner. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I took notes during some of these answers today but am none the wiser. My question asked whether the Minister would be taking advice from Mr Tamihere. That was not addressed. I was given the answer to a previous question. I asked him whether he will be seeking for Mr Tamihere to retract these statements. Again he did not address that question whatsoever. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I listen to the views of all back-benchers in the Labour Party but in the case of this particular issue I have already received advice from Mr Tamihere via an article in the  
Investigate  
magazine and I have just replied to it now. We know the incomes of all these people. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The question was addressed.