Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:620;Page:15737] 
2.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Defence 
: Is New Zealand ending the involvement of our troops in Iraq; if so why? 
Hon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence) 
: 
 Our engineer deployment will return to New Zealand this month having concluded the two planned 6-month deployments. 
Rodney Hide 
: On what date was a decision made by our Government not to replace our detachment in Iraq and was Australian Prime Minister John Howard consulted? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: The Government made a series of decisions that go back to 2003. The original announcement was made—I do not have the precise date in front of me—in about I think August 2003. The first deployment of 6 months took place in late September 2003 at which time both the Prime Minister and I made it clear that a second 6-month deployment may happen and it did. Cabinet made that decision and announcement quite early on and in March this year that second deployment took place. So the full 12 months has come to a conclusion and our deployment will come home this month. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There was another part to the question about Mr Howard. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: We are not part of the occupying force. There was absolutely no way in which we would consult Mr Howard. We are there under a UN resolution in support of the aid and reconstruction effort not as part of the occupying force. 
Luamanuvao Winnie Laban 
: What have our engineers been doing in Iraq over the last year? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: Our New Zealand Defence Force personnel have undertaken the vital task of helping to restore core infrastructure. That has included the NZAID-funded refurbishment of St Mary’s School in Basra the construction of reverse osmosis plants and refurbishment work on the Basra teaching hospital. There has been a large number of other projects including the construction of water tanks and hardstand water pipes at several small schools ongoing maintenance on two Bailey bridges and school refurbishment. All in all more than 40 projects have been completed. 
John Carter 
: Can the Minister advise whether one of the reasons there is to be a removal of personnel from Iraq is due to the serious shortage of troops and the gaping holes in current training regimes as identified in the New Zealand Defence Force annual report? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: No. I can confirm that the second 6-month deployment which the Government flagged may take place and did is coming to a conclusion. That is why this deployment is coming to its natural conclusion. 
Keith Locke 
: Does the Minister agree with the UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan that the invasion of Iraq was illegal; and will the Government breathe a sigh of relief that with the withdrawal of our army people from Iraq there will not be a claim by the United States that we are part of the coalition force as shown by the official US website that includes us as a coalition force and as part of the occupying coalition? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: I have not had the opportunity to read the announcement from the Secretary-General but it is clear to everyone in this House—and I am sure to everyone in New Zealand—that New Zealand went following a UN resolution and in response to it to help with the aid and reconstruction work in Iraq. We have not been there as part of the occupying force. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Does the decision to end the current engagement in line with the original agreement mean that New Zealand is ruling out any potential future involvements subject to a UN request or a request from the Government of Iraq; if not can the Minister indicate what the processes would be for considering any further request? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: The member asks a hypothetical question. There has not been to the best of my knowledge any request from the UN. Obviously any request from the UN this Government would always consider and take seriously. I would anticipate—and other colleagues have commented on—other possible future assistance through NZAID for instance as part of the ongoing work in support of the reconstruction of Iraq. 
Rodney Hide 
: Has the position of our engineers in Iraq changed in any way especially since Prime Minister Helen Clark repeated her commitment to Iraq just in April this year when she said: “Our position hasn’t changed. As long as our engineers can get out and do good work with the local communities we’ll be staying there.”? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: Our position has not changed. As the member knows during the course of the 12 months there have been periods during which the engineers have been able to move freely and other periods that have been more restrictive including the last few weeks. I can tell the member because I know he is interested that during that time they have been able to conclude some of the project work. They have had a series of meetings with local people who will be continuing on some of the projects such as the work on the hospital that they have been involved in. And of course because it is nearing the end of the planned period anyway there is the preparation for exiting. 
Rodney Hide 
: What is his response to the fact that in the past week we have seen Australia stand up to terrorists and refuse to be intimated but our Government does exactly what terrorists want by withdrawing our troops? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: I regard that as an affront to the courageous men and women of the New Zealand Defence Force. They have worked for 12 months in a very dangerous situation. They are coming home because it is time for them to come home. I think that member insults the men and women of the New Zealand Defence Force. He should be ashamed. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister was not asked whether it was a decision of the Defence Force or any member of it; he was asked a question to do with his political responsibility—and he knows it. Nothing in that answer remotely addressed the question. Whether or not we have sympathy with what he is saying is a different matter. But in terms of parliamentary accountability he failed to answer the question in any way shape or form. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: Speaking to the point of order I did address the question. The member asked by implication whether New Zealand was withdrawing and the answer is no. We are not withdrawing in an inappropriate way. Our personnel are coming home at the end of a planned deployment. 
Rodney Hide 
: The question was: what is the response of this Government? Here we have a pinko pacifist standing up— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will withdraw and apologise. 
Rodney Hide 
: I withdraw and apologise. Speaking to the point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No there is no point of order on this issue. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This had better be a new one. 
Rodney Hide 
: Well I am quite happy to stand up and apologise to that member but I think that he should be apologising to me to this House and indeed to all New Zealanders. To suggest that my question in any way insulted the men and women who serve in our defence forces is an affront and you Mr Speaker allowed it. That was a legitimate question to this Government. It in no way implied an insult to our defence personnel. In fact if anyone should be apologising to our defence personnel it is that Minister who is in charge. That was not the point of the question Mr Speaker and if you allow that to stand I am afraid I will be joining Mr Peters. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member may well be doing that. I say to the member that as far as I am concerned the Minister gave a strong reply. It is a debatable matter. I am not here to judge whether it is good or bad; I am here to judge whether it addressed the question. I thought he started out by saying virtually “No” to the member then he made some political comments afterwards. That is not unknown in this House. This is no reflection on the member of course as a strong ACT member. The member made his point and I think he made his point very well in the point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have to say that I seriously disagree with you. For the Minister to suggest that I am not patriotic or supportive of our servicemen and servicewomen is very deeply offensive to me. I would have thought he would take the label that I put to him as a badge of honour because it was true. But to stand up and say an untruth and somehow imply that I am denigrating our defence forces I find deeply offensive. I suggest Mr Speaker that you ask him to withdraw and apologise. Otherwise what are we here for? There are two standards. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As far as I am concerned the member has now raised the point that he himself has taken personal offence to a comment made. That is a slightly different point from the original point of order. In that regard I ask that the Minister withdraw that part of his comments. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: I withdraw that part of my comments. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. During the member’s last statement he repeated the allegation that he previously had to withdraw and said it was true. He also accused the Minister of stating an untruth. Both of those are contrary to the Standing Orders. I ask that you now require him to withdraw and apologise again. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will now stand and withdraw the comment about an untruth because that of course is out of order in this House. The member will withdraw that comment. 
Rodney Hide 
: I withdraw. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance here because I am reflecting on the comments that were made to the Minister that were considered unparliamentary. We have a member of this House namely the Minister himself who has proudly told the country in many press releases that he was a founding member of a Taupo peace and disarmament movement. Many people in the country would naturally refer to that as a “peacenik” organisation. The Minister has also been proud to be associated with the left side of the Labour Party. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: What is the member’s point of order? 
Ron Mark 
: The point is this Mr Speaker. My question to you is whether it is right to censure the member for using the term that aptly describes the Minister and bears out what he himself has put out in his own press releases as being a normal statement in referring to him in this way as a “lefty pinko peacenik”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has now repeated the comment. He will leave the Chamber. I am not having my ruling questioned. I say to members that as far as I am concerned I dealt with the subject. When comments are made that are quite clearly unparliamentary they have to be withdrawn. 
Ron Mark withdrew from the Chamber. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. What happened here today happens so frequently in this House. A very clear question was put by Mr Hide that asked what the Government’s position was. Everyone heard the question. No reference was made whatsoever to any decision being made by the military or any member of it. Instead the Minister launched into a tirade an attack an accusation of blatant disloyalty on the part of Mr Hide and at no time did you raise a mutter a murmur or a finger. Now you have kicked one of my colleagues out of the House because he like Mr Hide was validly raising a point of order that should have been dealt with and an apology should have come from the Minister. It should have been asked for from the moment he said it. Now we have a member out of the House and if you think that is fair treatment I do not. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well I do and I am not having any further comments from the member. I will not have my judgment questioned in that way. The member will now stand withdraw and apologise for those comments. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Keith Locke 
: I seek leave to table the front page of the coalition joint task force Operation Iraqi Freedom website listing New Zealand as one of the coalition partners. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have dealt as you are entitled to do very firmly with two members in the course of this exchange. However having ruled that a member had taken offence you asked the Minister to withdraw the comments that had caused the offence but did not ask him to apologise for the offence. I put it to you that in the spirit of the exchange that would be called for. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is fair enough. I ask the Minister also to apologise. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: And apologise.