Mahuta Nanaia: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Mahuta Nanaia: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 22 May 2012. Volume:680;Page:2230. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
8. 
Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Hauraki-Waikato) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: How many new teachers are forecast to be employed in 2016 based on the current student to teacher ratios and roll growth and how does this compare to the number of teachers who will be employed in 2016 under the new ratios she announced last week? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education) 
: 
 Over the past 10 years we have seen a 12.7 percent increase in teacher numbers—around 6000 more teachers—while student numbers have risen by only 2.5 percent. We have approximately 50000 teachers now and in 2016 we expect to have about the same. Under current settings we could have expected 1000 more teachers to be added by 2016. However because we have not seen a matching increase in achievement our focus in Budget 2012 is on investing in raising the quality of teaching not continuing to grow the number of teachers. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think we had a figure of 1000 in answer to the first part of the question and I know that you do not always insist on two legs of a question being answered but I think this was a straight question asking for two bits of information and could reasonably have been expected to be answered. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I think the member makes a perfectly fair point. This was the primary question and asked for a comparison. The Minister indicated that 1000 more teachers would have been expected had the previous arrangements continued in place— 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: Mr Speaker prior to my giving that figure I actually said we have approximately 50000 teachers now and in 2016 we expect to have about the same. That is a comparison between this year and 2016. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I appreciate the Minister’s clarification. I had missed that detail in her answer. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: To be clear then is it correct that 1000 more teachers would need to be hired in the next 4 years to keep up with roll growth under the current student-to-teacher ratios and how big will the average class size be in 4 years now that she has decided to freeze the number of teachers at current levels? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: No to the first part of the question. And to the second part of the question the ratios that I announced last week are for the purposes of a funding formula. That funding formula is then used by schools to decide what classes they will actually have. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Does she agree that larger class sizes mean that teachers have less time to spend one-on-one with students and that students with behavioural issues will put pressure on teachers; and how will this improve student achievement so that no child misses out? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: I am sorry Mr Speaker; because that question was so long could I have the front part of it again please? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If the member would not mind repeating the question please. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Does she agree that larger class sizes mean teachers have less time to spend one-on-one with students and that students with behavioural issues will put pressure on teachers; and how will this improve student achievement so that no child misses out? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: The point of investing in quality teaching is because the nature of teaching has now changed and it will continue to do so. The way that teachers deliver a cross-curriculum quality programme engages students in different ways including the significant investment that this Government has made in ultra-fast broadband and the Network for Learning which will be available to students. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have the advantage of having the supplementary question in front of me and— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! A point of order is being heard. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: —it was long but I do not think any part of it was addressed. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think in fairness on this occasion I will say that the question asked “does the Minister agree” with a whole string of things and the Minister in her answer said what she did agree with and made it clear what she did agree with. But what that means is it is quite clear that she did not agree with the points being raised in the question. I think where members ask whether Ministers agree with things they cannot expect any particular answer. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table a decile 9 school newsletter highlighting concerns about new student-teacher ratios and the impact on early years learning and one-on-one learning especially in the areas of reading writing and maths. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that school newsletter. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table a 2008 study from the University of London which shows that smaller class sizes provide the greatest benefits for students with disadvantaged backgrounds. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Is it correct that under the new student-teacher ratios she has announced the biggest increases in class sizes will occur in low-decile secondary schools small rural schools and wharekura as they have lower numbers of year 11 to year 13 students who attract a higher funding rate? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: Although it is not possible to give exact figures for each of the schools what we have done is make consistent the middle years from 2 to 10 and that actually seeks to deal with the inequity that the member is speaking about. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Did she discuss her plan to increase class sizes with her colleague Bill English who said in 2004 that class sizes should be smaller because they would lead to “better relationships between families teachers and students which research shows is really important for achievement particularly disadvantaged kids”; if so did he tell her it was a bad idea or just to agree with the Treasury recommendation? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: All proposals for the Budget are discussed with the Minister of Finance. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: How does the Minister explain to parents that larger class sizes in public schools are acceptable while private schools like for example Scots College Queen Margaret College and Chilton Saint James School are marketing themselves on the benefits of smaller class sizes or is this a case of “Do as we say but not as I do.”? 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: The member as usual is taking a selective approach. 
Hon Members 
: Oh! 
Hon HEKIA PARATA 
: Well the logic of that question is that having had five times the number of teachers over the number of students we should have seen a correlative lift in achievement. We have not seen that. So it is a mix of quality teaching and professional leadership which despite the Opposition’s opposition actually all of the evidence says is needed. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table a statement from the Scots College website which says “Class sizes are small which allows for plenty of interaction”— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table another statement from Queen Margaret College which says— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This statement is from a newsletter or website? 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: It is from a website. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Queen Margaret College website. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: It says “Class sizes never exceed 26 students and most classes are much smaller.” 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [ 
Interruption 
]  
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! There will be silence. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table a statement from the Chilton Saint James School website which says “we maintain small class sizes. This ensures the teachers have time to focus on the learning of every student in the class.” [ 
Interruption 
]  
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.