9. Question No. 9—FinanceHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 9—Finance9. Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of Finance: Is he confident that the Government's economic policies and actions are providing the clarity that businesses need and as much certainty as possible? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I am. Throughout our response to this global pandemic the Government's economic policies and actions like the wage subsidy business tax breaks and our public health response have been designed to give businesses clarity and certainty that will help support them through this one-in-100-year shock and go hard and early to stamp out COVID-19 so that activity can return to normal as quickly as possible. We have never wavered from this strategy despite calls from some quarters to reduce restrictions open the border close the border spend more spend less and other general flip-flops. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does he stand by the Government's guidance to business: If you are receiving the COVID-19 Wage Subsidy you must try your hardest to pay the employee named in your application at least 80% of their usual wages. If that isn't possible you need to pay at least the subsidy rate"? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That is indeed the current advice. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Is he aware of a recent determination by the Employment Relations Authority that an employer who followed the Government's guidance and agreed with employees for them to take an 80 percent pay where that reduced their pay below the minimum wage was in fact in breach of the Minimum Wage Act and liable for back-pay? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Minimum Wage Act obviously is the law of the land. It still applies. I'm advised by the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety that they did not follow the guidance. Hon Paul Goldsmith: So does he believe that the Government's guidance to businesses which says that you can if you need to pay at least the subsidy rate has potentially put some businesses in breach of the minimum wage law and potentially made them liable for considerable back-pay? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No I don't accept that. All employers around New Zealand are aware of their obligations under the law. If they follow the law and follow the guidance they will be fine. Hon Paul Goldsmith: The Government's COVID website says that if a business needs to it can pay just the full-time workers the subsidy rate but that rate is well below the minimum wage and the Employment Relations Authority says the Government's advice essentially is wrong and that the minimum wage must be paid—isn't there a problem? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I answered a number of questions about this during the period of time when the first wage subsidy was put into place. Employers are well aware of the need to follow the law. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well what has he done since then to tidy up this situation so that businesses have certainty that they won't have to make large back payments if the Employment Relations Authority's determination is upheld? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I can only repeat the answer that I've got: employers who have entered into any type of arrangement with their employees know that they need to follow the law. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does he not agree that the current situation is very unclear and that many businesses that are struggling to survive are faced with a great deal of uncertainty about a potential liability? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No I don't accept that that is the level of uncertainty that the member is describing. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well has he received any advice on the number of businesses liable if the Employment Relations Authority's determination became binding? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I've received no such advice but I'm confident that employers in New Zealand are aware of their obligations under the law. Hon Paul Goldsmith: So he sees no problem with the COVID-19 website telling employers that if they need to they can pay employees at the subsidy rate which is less than the minimum wage and a determination from the Employment Relations Authority that that is not the case—you need to pay the minimum wage? SPEAKER: Order! Order! We'll put a "does" in front of the question to make it a question. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Throughout all of the assistance that the Government has provided it is clear that employers must meet their legal obligations. We've had the same discussion around the stance of some employers to say that employees need to use up their annual leave. All of these matters were dealt with when we went through this earlier. Employers in New Zealand are well aware of their legal obligations. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well is he aware that there is a difference of $170 a week between the wage subsidy and the minimum wage? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: We've all been aware for some time of the rate of the wage subsidy. Hon Paul Goldsmith: So how can a business pay employees at the rate of the wage subsidy and still be actually paying the appropriate minimum wage? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The rate of the wage subsidy is set at $585 per week. Everyone knows that. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well is he confident that businesses can operate with due certainty when they have this very vague situation hanging over their head and the potential of having to pay back-pay to bridge the gap between the two if they were following the correct advice from the website which says that if they needed to they could pay just at the wage subsidy rate? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I've said numerous times in this answer most employers in New Zealand—good employers—are very well aware of the minimum wage."