Chhour KarenKAREN CHHOUR (ACT): Thank you Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of ACT to say we will be supporting this bill today but with many concerns. When it comes to the security and safety of our children and changing the way we look at it we should always be very careful that we get it right. I can see this from two sides. I can see this from the onus of proof being a huge burden on a parent that's going through a lot at the time facing a massive organisation and not knowing how they can prove they are good enough to have their child back. I really think the onus of proof should be on Oranga Tamariki (OT) and the courts to decide whether the child is safe or not not relying on a parent having to prove that they're a good enough parent. How do you do that against such a massive organisation? We have many parents that might be put in this situation through no fault of—well through no fault of their own really. I see this from a mother that may have an abusive partner that has hurt a child that is in the care and that mother will now come under the subsequent child provision even if she's moved on got into a new relationship and wanting to have a new child. So I can see how this can be a bad thing. But I can also see how this can leave a loophole for parents that have abused their children in the past and may abuse their children in the future. So we have to find a good middle ground. I think by removing the provision of a parent who has had a previous child or young person removed from their care and there is no realistic possibility that they will be returned to that person's care may be a step too far. Maybe we need to look at how we can fix the problem that you're trying to solve. Maybe we need to have a provision in there that allows for a family group conference (FGC) process before going to the courts which is a huge issue at the moment because we don't have the provision for an FGC before the court process and maybe also changing the onus of proof the burden of proof back to where it belongs. I don't feel that a parent who has been seen to be a good parent and a capable person should have a child removed just because of a piece of legislation that says so. So we have to find that middle ground and make sure we're getting it right both for the child and for the parent. At the end of the day New Zealand has a shocking record for abuse with children and we need to get this right. We have had multiple changes within the organisation over the last few years in the leadership roles. We've had major investigations into Oranga Tamariki in the way they behave around the care of our children and there have been so many changes going on that I'm afraid OT cannot do their core job when the organisation itself doesn't know where it's at. So I hope we can have more stability within the leadership role and more understanding of the direction that we want to go. OT was formed to fix a lot of these issues and it was meant to be over a four-year period. We get to year four and we chuck it out and we start again. I would hate to see we're making all these changes and in four years' time we decide that's not working and we chuck it out again. Our children can't afford for us to get this wrong anymore. It's been going on for too long. We need to support our families better and pre-determining risk is not necessarily the correct way to go.Let's support these families. Let's have something in place where if a parent is deciding that they are going to have a subsequent child and they have had problems with OT in the past instead of having the fear of God in them and going to OT and saying I'm about to have another child." where is the support and the leadership within the communities and OT to set up ways that these parents can have some kind of training some kind of support to be ready for this next child? I think this is the direction that the Government is trying to go and I really appreciate that because OT needs to be an organisation where parents are not afraid to stand up and say "I need help." We have a lot of parents that need help that are too scared to speak up and we end up in situations like this where our children are at risk and it's avoidable.So this piece of legislation is not a small piece of legislation. There are 44 clauses in this and I am really looking forward to the select committee process hearing what the communities have to say and hearing some ideas about where we could go in a better direction. Instead of being reactive all the time let's be proactive and let's come up with some solutions together to make our children's lives better and to make New Zealand a country we can all be proud of. So in saying that we will support this through to select committee and I look forward to hearing what people have to say."