7. Question No. 7—HousingHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green—Rongotai) to the Minister of HousingQuestion No. 7—Housing7. Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green—Rongotai) to the Minister of Housing: Does he stand by his statement that The evidence is as plain as day: cities that make it difficult to build more housing have housing affordability problems"; if so what advice if any has he seen on the impact on affordability of allowing councils to opt out of medium-density residential standards?Hon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing): To the first part of the question yes; to the second part of the question I've seen a range of advice on our Going for Housing Growth policy which as I've just mentioned includes making the medium density-residential standards (MDRS) optional while also requiring them to zone for 30 years of housing growth. Our position is that the current rules are too blunt too one-size-fits-all. We've heard the concerns from communities up and down the country and we believe that our new approach strikes the right balance between zoning for lots of growth and flexibility. I'm still in the process of receiving advice on the design of how we make the MDRS optional; it is legally complex as there are various councils in different stages of their plan changes. I haven't received specific advice on affordability to deal with her specific question but I've been clear that councils won't be able to opt out of the MDRS rules until we're satisfied they are releasing sufficient alternative development capacity to improve affordability.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Has he seen—and if he has seen it does he accept—the Sense Partners analysis of the medium-density residential standards that showed the infrastructure costs of a house in a new greenfields area on the fringe of the city is nearly double that of an additional home within the existing urban area?Hon CHRIS BISHOP: I've read the report. Yes I accept that advice. That is why as a part of our reforms we are saying that greenfields growth will have to be paid for by that growth. So the infrastructure cost for that growth will have to be paid for as part of that growth.Hon Julie Anne Genter: So does he acknowledge in light of that answer that making medium-density residential standards optional all else being equal will lead to less potential housing in the existing urban area precisely where it is most needed and where infrastructure costs are lower?Hon CHRIS BISHOP: That would be true if all else was being equal. The point is: it's not. We're making the MDRS optional at the same time as requiring councils to zone it for enough development capacity. The member needs to look at the policy in the round not a particular one element or component of it.Hon Julie Anne Genter: How does he reconcile his plan to "legalise housing" while removing the very mechanism that was cutting council red tape and making it easier to build more housing?Hon CHRIS BISHOP: Because we're being much more ambitious than the MDRS. In fact if I could point to one example put forward by New Zealand First as a part of the coalition agreement which makes its way in which is to make it essentially legal without a building consent or a resource consent for granny flats of up to 60 square metres on a property which I think will have a massive impact. We're also proposing strengthening the National Policy Statement on Urban Development so that mixed-use zoning is much more encouraged in our cities and of course the much more ambitious target of smashing urban limits which as the member's former colleague in the transport space the Hon Phil Twyford once said back in 2017 and early 2018—which the last Labour Government was going to do in relation to Auckland—there'd be no metropolitan urban limit under the Jacinda Ardern Labour - led Government. Six years on we're still waiting for it; the National-led coalition will deliver that.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Does he accept the evidence that people who live on the fringe of urban areas have much higher transport costs and accepting that will he include transport and affordability costs as a percentage of income as a measure and a target for affordability?Hon CHRIS BISHOP: Well it depends on the transport choices that people make. But I'm not sure what the member is so worked up about because the front page of The Post this morning I was very intrigued to see. Here's what it says: "Labour Green councillors pleased that Chris Bishop will decide on housing plan". So I'm not sure what the members of the Opposition are so worked up about because it sounds like the Green councillors from Wellington are pretty happy that I'm in charge now.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Point of order. I really appreciated that—[Interruption]—and you know I think it's great that the Minister—SPEAKER: Sorry sorry—start that again.Hon Julie Anne Genter: Yeah I appreciate the answer. However I did ask a very specific technical question and I would love it if the Minister would address that part of the question because the question was very specific about whether a measure of a housing affordability would include transport costs.Hon CHRIS BISHOP: I'm happy to answer it.SPEAKER: Yes well I'm pleased you're happy to answer; it's your job. Carry on.Hon CHRIS BISHOP: Indeed. I mean I broadly accept that analysis except it depends on the choices that people make. Yes of course—[Interruption] You guys all right? I'm just waiting for you to—SPEAKER: Hey that is enough—that is enough. I know this is the problem with having a third week of a four-week session in urgency; enormous pent-up excitement. Let's just hear—[Interruption] Sorry we're going to hear—Ms Genter we're going to hear the answer in silence.Hon CHRIS BISHOP: I'm happy to answer; I was just waiting for a bit of quiet. I broadly accept that. Of course it is true that people who live an hour outside the CBD probably depending on the choices they make pay more for transport but the point is over on this side of the House we believe in choice. Some people will choose to live in the suburbs some people will choose to live in a granny flat some people will choose to live in an apartment. Actually what we need is housing choice and more importantly we need urban land settings that facilitate those choices.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Just to get this straight from the Minister is he saying that under this new change a 60 square metre flat or building can be erected with just an engineer's report—or in other words a koro's flat for Willie?SPEAKER: No don't answer that question. We've got to stop this sort of clever technique of asking these questions that clearly indicate a very generous attitude towards the person you were talking about but that's a private arrangement you can make with him.Rt Hon Winston Peters: No Mr Speaker point of order. What's gone wrong with this place? All I'm trying to illustrate is that some people in this House might be seriously keen to hear that answer some with greater acuity than others. I was being kind when I said that and now you're turning it into some sort of dig that I meant to be offensive.SPEAKER: Yeah but when I've ruled on something you can't have a point of order on a ruling. You know the rules of the House; you've been here so long you wrote half of them."