English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:616;Page:11708] 
4.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) 
: Is he aware of any community education providers that may have enrolled at least one member of Parliament in a community education course; if so how will he establish whether that enrolment met the criteria for Government funding? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)) 
: 
 I am aware that Mr Ron Mark told the House yesterday that he had filled out some forms offering a course of language tuition at the Eastern Institute of Technology. 
Hon Member 
: In English? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes in English as the member inquired. The Tertiary Education Commission is investigating the Eastern Institute of Technology and will hold discussions with it regarding the validity of its student enrolment data. 
Hon Bill English 
: Will the Minister be applying the same kind of auditing interest to Tairawhiti Polytechnic and has that polytech been instructed by any of his agencies to remove any reference to the singalong course from its website and to answer telephone queries from journalists and the public by denying that it ran the course last year even though he paid it $11 million to do so? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am afraid that the last figure the member has put into play is something he must have made up himself because no one else can find that figure. In relation to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister can say that the member was inaccurate. That is the way he should have said it rather than in the way he said it. I ask him to withdraw and apologise and then to start the answer again. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I withdraw and apologise. The information I think is inaccurate. I advise the member that during the assessment of Tairawhiti Polytechnic’s interim profile late last year some issues were identified in its category 5.1 provision. That caused the Tertiary Education Commission to conditionally approve the institution’s interim profile while these matters were worked through last year. The issues related to specific anomalies in a range of programmes around the Maori studies department concerning documentation relating to course start dates and end dates. To resolve that matter Tairawhiti Polytechnic has agreed to an external audit. The terms of reference for this audit are currently under discussion. The Tertiary Education Commission is proposing that the audit cover classification 5.1 enrolments which are the enrolments the member is talking about. 
Dr Ashraf Choudhary 
: What requirements are there upon a tertiary education provider when claiming enrolments for funding purposes and how have those requirements increased recently? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: A provider has to follow funding guide requirements. Under recent changes part of the enrolment procedure for a student is to get a national student number. In doing that evidence of identity and eligibility has to—and I emphasise “has to”—be established if the student is to receive funding. The Tertiary Education Commission also does random audits to ensure compliance with that process. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Does the Minister believe that it is appropriate for recruitment officers for tertiary education institutions to be signing up every Tom Dick or Harry at hamburger bars late at night and that the Government should pay for every signature those recruiters get regardless of whether Tom Dick Harry or Ron Mark finishes the course; and is that a good use of taxpayers’ money? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I understand it was a Ron on this particular occasion and no of course I do not—but I note also that neither does the institute of technology in the Hawke’s Bay. The institute itself has said in a press statement that it does not recruit students in that way and that if that did happen it would condemn it. The institute is itself trying to find out whether this matter has any basis in terms of staff doing that kind of thing. I would say that Mr Mark is confirmed as being enrolled although to say any more about that would be to indicate things that perhaps Mr Mark would not want to have discussed. But I say that members who enrol in these courses—I am advised by the Eastern Institute of Technology—receive immediately in the mail material that tells them how the course will run and what they are required to do. I suspect that Mr Mark received that and maybe he would like to tell us why he did not complete the course. 
Deborah Coddington 
: Is it correct that the Minister received a complaint about a tertiary education provider called the Hikurangi Learning Centre that alleged that the chief executive officer Sarah Burkhardt was falsifying the attendance records of students by claiming for students who had dropped out of the courses and that he has known about that since December last year; if so what confidence can this House have in him in light of his recent answers that rorts like that will be immediately investigated? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Complaints about providers are made all the time. When we get complaints we immediately investigate to see whether there is any substance to them and we act. There is no way that this Government unlike the previous Government will allow money to be misspent in any way. We want to spend it in a way that advances education in this country. 
Hon Bill English 
: When the Minister said publicly that some community education courses were “of debatable quality” did he mean twilight golf coffee making the singalong course all three of those or other courses that we do not know about yet? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: One of the things that the member may like to know is that the— 
Hon Bill English 
: Just answer the question. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am just going to walk through the twilight golf course for example and tell—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am actually interested in the answer and I cannot hear it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is far too much senseless interjecting. I will hear the Minister’s answer in relative silence. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: All these courses take place within the community adult education field. The Tairawhiti Polytechnic offers a course of 3 hours in total for six nights on golf for beginners essentially and it attracts $40 per student for providing that course. The Tairawhiti Polytechnic is considering whether it should do that course again. In relation to the course that is called “singalong” by the member opposite the Eastern Institute of Technology has today outlined publicly in the media how the course runs the material it mails to people and the quality checks it puts in place. The member may like to take that course because the course at $225 per student is aimed at getting people into Maori language. In relation to people who may well get a qualification for working in a restaurant that may include something like knowing how to make themselves a very good cup of latte—which undoubtedly Mr English would like to drink—once again those courses are of use to people in terms of getting a job. In each case I urge the member to consider the courses in question but I as Minister am very interested in making sure that all courses make a contribution. When I find them to be dubious they will not happen any more. 
Deborah Coddington 
: On what date did he refer the alleged fraud by the Hikurangi Learning Centre which is provider-owned by a Maori trust that advised him and Te PuniKokiri on Maori involvement in tertiary education to the police? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I did not bring the details of that particular case with me but I am happy to provide them to the member if she approaches me later. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Is the Minister suggesting to the House that he refers so many of these courses to the police that he cannot remember them? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member knows that is not a point of order. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In his answer to the question the Minister said that he was happy to provide the details to the member if she asked him later. I am interested in those details as well. If Ministers do have such details and are happy to provide them it is normal for them to provide the details to the library so that all members can see them. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: In terms of written questions that is the case but as far as the offer the Minister has made is concerned I understand that he said he would get the details and give them to the member concerned. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have intervened very quickly for the Minister but I just ask you to reflect on your own former career as a Minister. Referring a matter to the police is not a question that happens idly and the suggestion the Minister gave to the House that he could not remember whether he had referred that case to the police is just not credible. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: It is often the case that Mr Prebble has not repeated exactly what members have said in the House and he has done that in this case. I said that if the member would like details about that particular institution I am happy to provide them. I did not say anything about the police. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will rule on the point of order now. As far as I am concerned that matter is not a point of order. The answer the Minister gave is open to criticism but that is not a matter for a point of order. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have an interesting situation here. The Minister was asked a very exact question: on what date did he refer the case to the police? He is now saying that if the member wants details he will let her know later. What is the point of having question time? I presume that the real answer is that he has not referred the case to the police and that is the one piece of information he does not want us to know. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: We need the question to be repeated accurately as well. It was about when the Minister did something and he replied quite properly—since this was a case that was not part of the principal question—that he did not have the information with him. If the member thinks Ministers come down to this House with every possible piece of information for every possible supplementary question about every possible course in the country then he should realise we would all look like Richard Northey coming in here. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is criticising the Minister’s answer. That is not a point of order. 
Hon Bill English 
: What is now the Minister’s position—is it what he said 4 days ago that a number of these courses are “of dubious quality” or is it what he said today that they are “valuable and contribute to employment”; and what is his opinion of an institution that signs up stray members of the public in hamburger bars late at night gets paid for a course and does not make sure that the MP completes that course? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Anybody who signs up Ron Mark in a hamburger bar without him fully knowing what he is signing up for and so on would take great exception to that and so would the institution—as it has said it has. The institution does not regard that as proper behaviour. I was reminding the member previously that before he jumps in and condemns these courses as his predecessor Max Bradford did he may like to know what they are. Some courses are however of dubious quality and I have said that where they exist they will not exist for long.