Hipkins Chris: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Hipkins Chris: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 20 March 2012. Volume:678;Page:1063. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
6. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
 to the  
Minister of State Services 
: Does he agree that few problems are solved by significant reorganisations—in fact many more tend to be created and it is easy to underestimate the amount of energy and inspiration soaked up by institutional change as well as the loss of personal and institutional knowledge? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of State Services) 
: 
 Yes but I also agree with what the Prime Minister said last week which was that “We’ve always said that there’ll be a high hurdle for structural change in the public sector. My speech is not going to be about mergers for mergers’ sake. So we are not looking at wholesale restructuring but there is one area of the public sector’s operations where we think that structural change is needed.” I would add that the case for the new Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment clears that hurdle and the potential benefits are clear. 
Chris Hipkins 
: What is his definition of “significant reorganisation”? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: Well when you are talking about significant reorganisation you could ask how long is a piece of string. But the point we are making here is that this makes sense. And there is support from Labour. Mr Cunliffe— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member was asked what he understood by “significant reorganisation” and went on to talk about Labour. 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: Well they do need significant reorganisation. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The member will resume his seat. And while I am on my feet he will not offer me advice. 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wonder whether the Minister could now answer the question which is what is his definition— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! It seemed to me the Minister did answer. He seemed to liken it to the length of a piece of string. So it seems that that was an answer. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Does he believe that multiple departmental mergers 2500 job cuts and the closure of several regional offices by Public Service agencies amount to significant restructuring; and if so why does he not believe that the Prime Minister should have fronted up and said before the election that they were intending to do such significant reorganisation rather than reinventing after the election what he said? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: No but what I do know is that the Public Service grew by 40 percent under Labour. It was getting very bloated and inefficient and frankly something has to be done about it so it supports New Zealand business and gets the economy going ahead and that is what we are going to do. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Does he believe that the staff working for the Ministry of Science and Innovation or the staff working for the Department of Building and Housing policy unit would view the disestablishment of their agencies less than 2 years after they were significantly reorganised by his Government as amounting to significant restructuring; and if not why not? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: There will be a range of beliefs across the Public Service but what I do know is that the majority of public servants know that we do need some reform of the Public Service and they also knew they were not going to get it under Labour. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: What reports has he had of overseas precedents for a Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: I have read reports of a Ministry of Employment and the Economy which is responsible for innovation for the functioning of the labour market for employment and for economic development. It was the result of a 2007 merger of three Government departments and it has been very very successful. It is in a country that Mr Shearer is very keen on and that country is Finland. 
Chris Hipkins 
: How does he reconcile the Prime Minister’s statement that the establishment of this new superministry is not change for change’s sake when two of the departments being merged into the new superministry have already faced significant restructuring by his Government or is he admitting that his Government got it wrong the first time? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: Quite easily. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can the Minister tell us how he expects to solve problems for example offshore when we will have in our offshore bases in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade 2½ times to 2¾ times fewer people than say countries like Singapore and Norway in a modern commercial setting? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: Well that member must have some information from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade old boys because quite frankly the proposals are out for discussion and no decisions have been made. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. He is the Minister; I am asking him. How does he think the problem is going to be better solved with dramatically fewer people and with a disparity of that type between those leading countries? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister’s answer though is a fair answer in saying that no decisions have been made and therefore he cannot comment on such alleged reductions. That is a reasonable answer from a Minister. I suspect the time may come when it will not be but for the moment that is a reasonable answer from the Minister. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is the Minister aware of a significant step change in 2008 in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade which saw a significant investment made in our people and resources offshore which now seems to be imperilled by his Government’s recent statements? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: What I am aware of is that that member secured a whole lot of funding to open embassies which would shore up his own position and we are now having to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! [ 
Interruption 
] There will be silence. The question asked was not an unreasonable question and I do not think it deserved an abusive answer. I invite the Minister to answer the question within the Standing Orders because it was not an unreasonable question. I think the answer was heading down a totally unacceptable track. 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: Would you like to ask it again? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is the Minister aware of the step change organised by yours truly in 2008 for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade— 
Hon Steven Joyce 
: Extra expenditure you mean? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: —I beg your pardon—and a significant investment in both personnel and resources offshore for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and does he not understand that all the recent statements from the Government where the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade is concerned imperil that investment? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: I am aware that that investment might not be fit for New Zealand’s overseas strategic interests 4 years on from that member’s tenure as Minister of Foreign Affairs.