Mackey Moana: Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Mackey Moana: Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:658;Page:7479] 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I am happy to speak on the title and commencement clauses of the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill. To respond to the comments of the Minister in the chair Nathan Guy I say that I am very disappointed that he did not confirm that the funding that is needed by the Institute of Environmental Science and Research to ensure that the testing will be carried out properly will be there. I acknowledge the comments that were made by the chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee Chester Borrows in the debate on Part 2 but the most important part of the question that I put to the Minister in the chair—the part that he has not answered yet and that I hope he will—is whether he will guarantee the money that is needed by the Police and by the Institute of Environmental Science and Research to ensure that this process— 
Hon Nathan Guy 
: It’s all in here. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: No will he guarantee it? He should stand up and tell me that the money that the institute needs will be there. He should not tell me that he has a bit of paper that gives the figures that the institute needs; he should tell me that the Government will give it that money and that there is no question that it will get the money that it needs to ensure that there is no risk of a miscarriage of justice. That is what we are talking about here. 
I was a little bit concerned to hear the chair of the committee say that the Institute of Environmental Science and Research already does chain of custody and it does it very well. He is right but I have worked in a laboratory and I can tell members that when one suddenly gets thousands of extra samples and there is not the funding for more staff more space a computer system to put them on or whatever might be needed there is a real risk. I am not saying this to be smart to be tricky or to try to create problems; I am genuinely asking. The officials may well have come to the committee and said that everything is hunky-dory but they know what they would get if they crossed the Government at this stage. I know people who work at the Institute of Environmental Science and Research who do this job and they are concerned. They are worried particularly with the financial pressures on the Crown research institutes at the moment. They have to look overseas for work to be able to pay a 9 percent dividend to the Government which was not required of them under the last Government because that money was able to be reinvested. A 9 percent return? Yes. A dividend back to the Government to pay for things like private schools and national standards? No. I want the Minister in the chair to tell me that the Institute of Environmental Science and Research will have the money that it needs in order to ensure that we do not run any risk of a miscarriage of justice. 
I also want to go back to the Minister’s discussion of the power of this technology. He is absolutely right: this is incredibly powerful technology. It is being improved all the time. I cannot remember who said this—I think it might have been Spider-Man although he might have been quoting someone—but with great power comes great responsibility. The responsibility on this Committee is to get it right because this is powerful technology. I feel like I sound a bit like a DNA denier which I am not. I am a realist. I want this Committee to accept that there is a danger when it comes to juries around the fallibility of DNA. DNA like any technology is not infallible. There could be human error or deliberate planting. It is not infallible but it is an incredibly powerful tool. People who go before a jury with DNA evidence against them are not in a very good position. 
Stuart Nash 
: Toast! 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Yes. The fact is that we need to be aware of this fallibility if we are to increase our use of this technology and if we are not sure that the funding will be there to ensure that we have all the proper safeguards for this very powerful technology. We need to make sure that the general public understand that as I said in my second reading speech on this bill unlike taking an entire fingerprint DNA is tested at only a limited number of loci. We do not test the entire DNA profile of someone. We do not get someone’s entire genetic profile. Although DNA is one of the best technologies that we have that fact needs to be understood. There needs to be education of the public around that so when people serve on juries they understand how the technology works and they do not think that just because someone has DNA evidence against them it means 100 percent absolutely and unquestionably that it has to be that person. That needs to be understood. 
I come back to this matter again and I say to the Minister in the chair—he waved a bit of paper at me and I am not sure what is on it—that he should get up and tell us that the money will be there. He should tell the people who work for the Police and the Institute of Environmental Science and Research that they will be properly funded to do this testing. The Minister might think this is funny but we run a real risk of a miscarriage of justice if the money is not guaranteed to the organisations that are to be collecting testing and storing the samples. When those organisations are put under significant financial pressure and workload pressure and they are not given adequate resources to look after and protect this incredibly powerful technology we really run the risk of unintended consequences. 
Labour supports this bill but we just want to hear from the Minister in the chair—or from the Minister of Research Science and Technology who is responsible for Crown research institutes and who is sitting across the Chamber and has not taken a call yet—that the money will be there for the Institute of Environmental Science and Research. 
Hon Dr Wayne Mapp 
: Contract. It’s contract-based. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The question is that clause 1 stand part. I call Moana Mackey. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: The Minister just yelled something out to me and I feel I need to respond. 
Chris Tremain 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The question had already been put and I ask— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am the sole determiner of that. I have called Moana Mackey. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I thank the senior Government whip for trying to shut me down on this very important issue which is clearly causing the Government embarrassment. 
Hon Member 
: It was a serious point of order. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: That is right; that is true. 
The Minister in charge of Crown research institutes has just washed his hands of the institute. This man is meant to be in charge of the organisation that will be given a huge increase in workload. 
Simon Bridges 
: DNA expert? Body language reader? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: What? 
Simon Bridges 
: Well how did he wipe his hands of it? What did he do to wipe his hands of it? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Oh for God’s sake! 
Simon Bridges 
: No you’re saying it. Tell me what he did. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: If Mr Bridges just listened instead of sitting up there chipping away constantly and never actually listening to anything other than his own voice he might hear. The Minister of Research Science and Technology Wayne Mapp interjected across the Chamber. 
Simon Bridges 
: What did he say? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: He said that it will just be on contract so it does not matter. I would like the Minister to take a call because the people who work at the Institute of Environmental Science and Research are concerned about what will be a long-term increase in their workload. I ask whether the Minister will guarantee that within the contract for the institute for this increase in workload it will get not only the funding that the select committee was told it would need but also funding that goes beyond the testing of the samples to the chain of custody—the administration. I know that the Government does not like talking about administration because that is bureaucrats; it is not front-line staff. But it cannot work if the administration— 
Hon Dr Wayne Mapp 
: Obviously you haven’t looked at their contracts. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Well I ask why the Minister Dr Wayne Mapp does not get up and take a call. Rather than just sitting there like a dried arrangement I ask why he does not get up take a call and speak on his portfolio area of responsibility. I know that he did not want the job. I know that he does not like it. He keeps going out to people in the Crown research institute community and telling them that he never wanted the job which does not exactly instil confidence in their new Minister. I know that he was trying to lower expectations considerably and I say to the Minister that it is a job well done but he might want to get up in the Chamber and answer this question. I say to the Minister that I am not trying to be difficult and I am not trying to be argumentative or problematic. I have worked for this Crown research institute and I have worked in other similar areas. I know how often the chain of custody does not get picked up in the administration side. 
Chris Tremain 
: This debate is on the title and commencement. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: It should be called the “Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Pay Them Properly Bill”. Does that make the Government whip happy? The chair of the select committee got up and said that the Institute of Environmental Science and Research already had a great chain of custody process. Well that said to me that the institute would not get any more money for doing chain of custody. I am sure that the Minister will agree because he has been around and he has looked that that is one of the most important parts. There is no integrity in the entire process if one is not absolutely 100 percent sure that from the moment that sample is taken the process is sound. It is transported it arrives at the Institute of Environmental Science and Research and it is logged in. It is stored because it will not be tested yet and then it goes through the laboratory process. It is then analysed—a person does data analysis on it. Those results are then logged back against the person. Finally the sample whether it is a DNA data sample or a DNA physical sample is stored. I ask how all of that process will be properly funded—it is not expected to come out of the baseline funding of Institute of Environmental Science and Research—given that the Minister now expects the institute to pay a dividend to the Government to pay for private school funding increases rather than that money going back into science. The Crown research institutes are under financial pressure; I am sure that the Minister would acknowledge that. I do not think it is too much to ask for the Minister in charge of this portfolio area—who has sat there the entire time I have been speaking and has been chipping away but he will not get up and take a call on his portfolio area—to say to the Institute of Environmental Science and Research and this Committee that the funding will be there and that the Government will make sure that the contract includes all this extra area. I do not know why that is such a difficult thing for him to do. If he does not want to be the Minister for this portfolio then he should give it to someone who does want to be the Minister. That is all I would say about it. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: He only got three out of 10 in the  
Dominion Post 
. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Three out of 10. If the Minister does not want to do it then he should not do it. He should step aside and give the job to someone like Dr Paul Hutchison who understands how the Crown research institute sector works who works really hard with those people and who knows the importance of funding the administration of sample collection and sample chain of custody care. 
Hon Dr Wayne Mapp 
: Why don’t you look at the latest results for all of them? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Well the Minister should get up and take a call. I am happy to sit down now so that the Minister of Research Science and Technology who is responsible for Crown research institutes can stand up and give the Committee the guarantee that it needs that this bill will be properly funded so that we do not run the risk of any kinds of miscarriages of justice.