Alexander Marc: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members Question No. 7 to Minister  
Alexander Marc: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members Question No. 7 to Minister  
[Volume:620;Page:15366] 
2.  
MARC ALEXANDER (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Justice 
: Did his officials predict the 16.5 percent increase in the prison population since June 2002; if so why did the Government only yesterday raise the prospect of increasing the capacity of new and existing prisons? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections) 
 on behalf of the 
 Minister of Justice 
: No. The 16.5 percent increase was higher than that predicted by the Ministry of Justice. The increase has resulted from a quicker than expected response from the justice system to the tougher bail sentencing and parole legislation and a strong improvement in police resolution rates. The Government has been working for some time on ways to meet this increased demand including increasing the capacity of new and existing prisons. 
Marc Alexander 
: Was the Minister’s announcement yesterday a woeful belated response to a trend that his ministry should have picked up much earlier or was it motivated instead by the latest threats from lawyers—no doubt seeking to stuff their gowns with taxpayers’ cash—that they will take the Government to court for imprisoning their clients in overcrowded makeshift prisons? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: No and no. 
Tim Barnett 
: What action has been taken to address the higher than expected prison numbers? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The Department of Corrections has introduced a number of measures including using the department’s 4 percent operational buffer increasing double-bunking at Auckland Central Remand Prison and Rimutaka Prison reopening the Larch Unit at Tongariro/Rangipo Prison and adding cells to Waikeria Prison’s Nikau Unit for women. In addition increasing the capacity of existing facilities is being considered. The situation will improve markedly when the four new facilities open in the next few years. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Why will this Minister not take any responsibility at all for the mismanagement of the prison musters when departmental briefings from as far back as this Government’s beginnings in 1999 identified growth in prison numbers as requiring urgent ministerial attention—attention that this Government’s Ministers have not given? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Because there has been no mismanagement. The reality is that the figures the member quotes as he will see if he reads carefully show that there was a prediction of 7000 inmates by the year 2008. In fact that figure was reached by 2004 because this Government has got tough on law and order. 
Stephen Franks 
: Did the officials who prepared the briefing papers for the Labour Cabinet in 1999 know what the Minister’s Sentencing Act of 2002 would do; if not how did they know that the prison muster would require three extra prisons by the end of last year in Auckland Northland and south Auckland and another replacement prison this year when according to the Minister it is his toughening up that is the reason so many extra cells are needed? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The reality is that some planning was already under way in response to things that were happening prior to 1999. The reality now is that the 2008 prison muster predicted by the Ministry of Justice in 1999 when this Government came in has been reached at this particular point. That is the reason this Government is taking extra action to try to improve the capacity of our prison system. 
Marc Alexander 
: Has the Minister received any strong protestations from the current Minister of Police on behalf of the police who have to bear the brunt of his ministry’s miscalculation as they become jailers for up to 160 remanded and sentenced prisoners a day? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I am advised that there have been discussions between the Minister of Justice the Minister of Corrections and the Minister of Police with everybody acknowledging that the use of police cells for example as prisons is not ideal. But they are used for that purpose from time to time and that has happened over a period of time. 
Stephen Franks 
: Were the Minister’s officials telling the truth when they said in March this year in their report on the Sentencing Act: “The use of imprisonment in 2002 and 2003 was the same as for previous years with 8 percent of all convicted cases resulting in a custodial sentence. This was not unexpected because none of the changes was intended to increase the use of imprisonment as a sanction.”; if so who is right: them or the Minister who claims the prison space crisis is a planned result of the Sentencing Act? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: At that time the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act had not taken full effect. The reality is we are now at the level of prison numbers that we were predicted to be at in 2008. That is a direct result of this Government toughening up on law and order and the excellent results of the police being engaged. I would have thought the National spokesperson on law and order Mr Stephen Franks would be supporting those actions. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member cannot use the term “National spokesperson”. He knows that Mr Franks is a member of the ACT party. I took it as a slip of the tongue; I would like him to assure me that it was. If it was not he apologises. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I apologise. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: Can the Minister tell the House what percentage of inmates are inside for non-violent offences; and given the comment of the most comprehensive prison review to date that imprisonment by its very nature damages more individuals than it repairs does he not think that a better way of dealing with those people would be to look at more effective rehabilitation rather than simply locking more people in jail? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I do not have the full numbers before me but generally I support the member’s basic point that better—for example—early intervention rehabilitation and reintegration are the way forward. But the reality is that in 1999 the people of New Zealand called for tougher sentences following 9 years of inaction by the previous National Government. We delivered on that and there are increased prison numbers as a result. 
Marc Alexander 
: Has the Minister received any advice from his officials that gives him any degree of certainty that the proposed double-bunking of prisoners would not be interpreted by lawyers and judges as being in contravention of some specious new human right thereby creating a further avalanche of claims? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: No because double-bunking has been used quite a lot in New Zealand prisons. The figure was around a thousand but has now gone up to around 1400 or 1500 as I understand with potential increases in it over the next little while. Double-bunking is used quite commonly in New Zealand.