SpeechParts 1 and 2 schedule and clauses 1 and 2Hon TE URUROA FLAVELL (Minister for Māori Development): Ka nui te mihi ki a tātau e hoa mā kua tae mai i tēnei pō ki te wānanga i tēnei kaupapa kua roa e noho tārewa ana ēngari kai te pai! He pai tonu i whakaara ake ngā āwangawanga ngā anipā i tērā wā nō reira anei tātau i tēnei pō e ruku nei ki te hōhonutanga o tēnei o ngā kaupapa i tēnei pō ka mihi rā ki te āhuatanga o wā tātau kōrero. E kore au e hoki ki ngā kōrero kua kōrerohia ēngari ka ngana nei ki te whaiwhai haere i ētahi kōrero kua puta ake i tēnei pō. [Fellow colleagues your arrival here this evening is greatly appreciated to deliberate this matter that has been unresolved for a long time but that is fine. It is quite good really in that concerns and uneasiness were raised during that period and here we are delving into the depth of the matters and I commend the tenor of our contributions. I will not be going back to sentiments expressed but will attempt to follow up on some statements that came up tonight.]I just want to address a couple of the matters that are pretty important in the context of this bill to the member Meka Whaitiri firstly around her concern on clause 7. The advice I have is that beneficial interest in Māori freehold land includes corresponding interest in all other trust property and this includes general land. That is the advice I have.With regard to the bigger issues that have been raised by Mr Henare and not as much by Mr Davis I want to take it through carefully because this is at the nub of the issue in respect of the High Court and the Māori Land Court. My advice is this: the Wī Pere Trust is currently subject to both the High Court and Māori Land Court jurisdictions although the jurisdiction of each court is not necessarily really clear. New sections 5(2) and 5(3) inserted by clause 9 clarify the jurisdiction of the High Court to settle disputes relating to the administration and governance of the trust and explicitly exclude the Māori Land Court from having that jurisdiction.The proposed change in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 205 in the name of Meka Whaitiri removes reference to the High Court having the jurisdiction to settle disputes relating to the administration and governance the Wī Pere Trust. It does not explicitly seek this jurisdiction for the Māori Land Court. This is potentially problematic for the beneficiaries in creating that element of ambiguity again. The trust was not created under Te Ture Whenua Maōri Act 1993. It is not subject to all of the Act's provisions or to the full jurisdiction of the Māori Land Court as provided by this Act. The special expertise and knowledge of the Māori Land Court in areas relating to history tikanga whakapapa etc. associated with Māori freehold land is absolutely I think acknowledged in the bill as we all know with the Māori Land Court being given jurisdiction to settle disputes relating to lineal descent which is noted in new section 26 inserted by clause 9.The Māori Land Court continues to hold the jurisdiction for matters concerning all Māori freehold land owned by the trust. Beneficiaries will still have affordable access to the Māori Land Court in important matters related to their land and in matters relating to commerce administration and governance. The High Court has the appropriate expertise given that the trust's assets are not limited to Māori freehold land. The Māori Land Court does not have jurisdiction to hear matters relating to trust property that is general land. The Wī Pere Trust is aware of the cost differences between the High Court and the Māori Land Court and only very serious matters that are unable to be resolved through the disputes process would proceed to the High Court.Schedule 1 Initial constitution of trust board" outlines the disputes resolution process involving discussion and negotiation that is used to resolve issues that may arise between trust board members or beneficiaries. The intention of course is to avoid any unnecessary court or arbitration proceedings. The trustees in their submission to the Māori Affairs Committee I believe acknowledged that the Māori Land Court has special expertise and knowledge in areas related to those issues of tikanga history and whakapapa associated with Māori freehold land. They noted that the bill continues to provide for the jurisdiction of the Māori Land Court in respect of all Māori freehold land owned by the trust. Their view was that this ensures beneficiaries will still have cost-effective access to the Māori Land Court on important matters relating to their land.What we have generally picked up is we have heard their submissions dealt with the submissions and pretty much across the board we are here on the basis of what the Wī Pere Trust wants and has agreed to. So that is where it sort of lands and in that regard I just need to signal to the member from Ikaroa-Rāwhiti that we will not be supporting her SOP because we believe that it is pretty much covered off. I thought I would just stand to offer up that rebuttal to—Hon Ruth Dyson: Stand up to your officials.Hon TE URUROA FLAVELL: Ha ha! OK I will stand up straighter now. We will not be following on from the desire of the member but we understand her motivation in putting the submission up. We will leave it on the Table at this point in time. Kia ora tātou."