Alexander Marc: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Alexander Marc: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:615;Page:10870] 
5.  
MARC ALEXANDER (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Is he satisfied with the management of State prisons; if so why? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
Generally yes. As I have said before the department’s primary job is to keep the public safe and it has consistently performed well when compared with other countries. 
Marc Alexander 
: How can the Minister have confidence in the State management of prisons when at least three of such prisons report that one-third of their inmates tested positive for drugs with department officials having conceded that preventing such drugs from getting into prisons was unlikely; and in light of such poor management why will he not reconsider allowing privately run prisons which have a much better management record to continue operating here? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: There are a lot of debatable points in there but can I talk about the drug issue first. The member will recognise that drugs in prisons is a difficult issue. That is true of all prisons around the world. I have visited all the prisons and what I do know is that for example drugs can be taken into prison in tennis balls across the fence and can be carried in in babies’ nappies. I know that in one case the drug P was carried in under the fingernails of a partner yet at the same time the department has made extraordinarily good efforts to try to bring the numbers down. The figures the member reports are 2002-03 figures. The latest figures I have show that in the last 6 months the average across the country was about 18 percent. In Wellington over the three prisons it has dropped from about 18 percent down to 10 percent. This is an enormously difficult area and it cannot be resolved overnight but the Department of Corrections is doing enormously good work to try to bring the figure down. 
Martin Gallagher 
: Further to the primary question could the Minister comment on how New Zealand’s prisons compare internationally? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Very well indeed. The total inmate cost per day for example is lower than in Australia England Wales and Canada. We fare very favourably on measures such as the staff to inmate ratio and the department’s integrated offender management system is considered to be a world leader. 
Richard Worth 
: In the context of prison management why is the Government opposed to private prisons given the stunning success of the private remand prison in Mount Eden—stunning in terms of the department’s audits on prisoner activities assaults positive drug tests justified complaints escapes; just name the measure? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: There is a range of measures. One of the things often quoted is that it is cheaper with remand inmates. That is not the case when we compare— 
Brian Connell 
: It is the case. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: It is not the case when we compare remand inmates in State prisons and remand inmates in the private prison. The basic reason in answer to the member’s question is that we consider incarcerating people—putting people in prison taking away their liberty—is the role of the State. 
Ron Mark 
: Does the Minister not know that the reason he is now receiving such wonderful news of a drop in positive drug-testing is that his corrupt Department of Corrections management is instructing people to randomly sample selectively in order to make sure that the numbers of positive tests are driven down and that the Minister and his Government have good figures and good news for the country? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is one word in that question that I cannot allow and it is the word “corrupt”. 
Ron Mark 
: I withdraw the word “corrupt” and leave in the rest. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Right. The rest of the question can be answered. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: For a start I take great offence at the claim the member has made and put out in a press statement. What I will say though is that if that member has evidence he should bring it forward. The member is known for this of course. He claimed last year that Chubb prison guards had been bashed by a person on home detention and taken to hospital. That is absolutely not true. He claimed that Ukrainian farm workers were involved in a scam in Canterbury. That is simply not true. That member cries wolf all the time. He never has any information. He goes for the headline. He had better front up with some information before he loses all credibility in this House. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I would just like to rebalance if I may. My accusations about an inmate dying from a P overdose while on home detention were true. The questions I raised about the Ukrainians were true. The questions I have raised about the “goon squad” were true. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is debating material. It is not a point of order. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is a different matter. Could someone indicate to the technicians that they have turned the knob and we are being blasted out by the sound system? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes we are. It is our second day. We are trying to get this right. Please be patient. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table written material published by the media demonstrating the aversion of the Minister to the “goon squad” inquiry and his final acceptance after pressure from Ron Mark. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek some guidance from you. Is making a personal statement in this House my only recourse in respect of those incorrect statements? Is that the way I have to do it? If so I seek the leave of the House to make a personal statement right now. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is the Prime Minister’s statement which we will debate very shortly and there is the general debate coming up. I am sure those answers can be given in debate. If the member wants to make a personal explanation he can ask for leave to do so. 
Ron Mark 
: I seek leave to make a personal explanation. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: About? 
Ron Mark 
: To counter the allegations levelled right then by the Minister of Corrections about my misleading the House or making incorrect statements. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is where we get into some difficulty with personal explanations. This is not properly speaking a matter for personal explanation. It is really a matter for debate. If we are to allow that kind of personal explanation then we will simply have a whole series of debates occurring under the guise of personal explanations. We reached that stage at one point in the past. I do not think we want to get back into it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All I can say is that leave has been sought which the member is entitled to do. It is up to the House whether to grant it. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: In light of yesterday’s report—that a third of prisoners at Rimutaka Prison tested positive for drugs—would the Minister tell the House what level of positive drug-test is he prepared to accept; if it is not a zero tolerance to drugs why not? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: For a start the figures the member is quoting are from the financial year 2002-03 and the latest figure I have for the last 6 months for the Wellington region is 10 percent. I just want to put that matter straight. Of course we would like to see no drugs in prison. The reality is that it is a problem all around the world. We are doing our very best to try to bring the numbers down. 
Marc Alexander 
: Is the Minister in any way surprised at reports of State prison mismanagement of servicing given that the Department of Corrections reports that it has not received a funding increase since the mid-1990s despite a 30 percent increase in prison population size; and why has this Government done nothing about that for 5 years? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I am pleased to see the Minister of Finance nodding. It is true that the Department of Corrections has had huge pressures on it mainly due to increased numbers in prison—some of which have been brought about by tougher sentences due to this Government having listened to what the public said in the referendum in 1999. There are some important issues that have to be addressed and I am currently engaged in very fruitful discussions with the Minister of Finance about that matter. 
Marc Alexander 
: Why should the public continue to have any confidence in the State management of prisons when since Christmas alone three guards at Paremoremo have been arrested for offences including fraud corruption smuggling and engaging in improper relationships with gang-member prisoners; and why will the Minister not remove his ideological blindfold long enough to see that well-managed private prisons like the Auckland Central Remand Prison ought to be allowed to continue? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: There are always bad apples in the barrel. That is unacceptable and we are doing everything we can to minimise it.