Carter John: Local Government (Auckland Law Reform) Bill — In Committee 
Carter John: Local Government (Auckland Law Reform) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:663;Page:11556] 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government) 
: 
 I must give my congratulations. This debate is starting to become informative and that is good. An informative debate is a rare event in Parliament but I am pleased to say that it is now starting to get a bit of focus and that is good. Some of the questions that have been put forward by the Opposition are worthy of a response so I was encouraged to stand and respond to some of the points that have been made. 
I want to respond to the comments that have been made about whether Parliament should prescribe that there be representation of different groups—such as senior citizens ethnic groups and youth—on a permanent basis. There have been a number of representations as the members who were on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee would know. There have been representations from people with disabilities. Representatives from the Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind came to see us and asked for representation. A whole host of different people came to the select committee. 
The issue comes down to this. We have made the decision to give Aucklanders one local authority. That is a direction we took from the royal commission. There will be one local authority across Auckland. Now who knows everything in that large area? That is the dilemma we then have. Ross Robertson for instance conceded that it is unlikely he would know every organisation and structure in Auckland and I suspect every member in this Chamber would agree that it is unlikely that any one person knows everything that goes on in Auckland. 
The worry that the Government had was that if we started prescribing we would be putting up barriers which would take away opportunities for the council itself on behalf of its people or the local boards to make decisions. It would restrict its ability to start addressing some of those issues. 
I say to Dr Prasad who raised the issue of the ethnic board for example that it will be a hugely brave council that says at the end of a term that it will do away with such a committee. Our view was that if we set that up it would continue on and we believe it is better for the council to form the structure that it thinks best represents them. We are absolutely certain that the council will also give consideration to youth and to senior citizens. In terms of the discussions about the business sector’s concerns which both members have raised we want the council to form the structure to some extent. There will be a mix but to some extent we want the council to form that on the basis of what business people think the best structure is. 
One of the council-controlled organisations will certainly be looking at tourism and business development; there is no question about that. It will be on a regional basis and it may well be up to the council to set some parameters as to the way that will work. 
H V Ross Robertson 
: What about Cameron Brewer’s concerns? 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: That is the very point I am making. What might be useful for Cameron where he operates may not necessarily suit the North Shore or the Franklin community. The council will have to work through the structure it sets up and say: “This is a regional parameter.” But how does that work down in the local community or the local business group? We wanted to make sure there was the flexibility to allow the council to form the structure that best suits the Cameron Brewers and the other people who came to the select committee to make their representations. If we had prescribed it here it is more than likely that we would have got it wrong. And we are mindful of the fact that we do not want Wellington prescribing to us how we should run our council. 
Our view is that as best we can we certainly want to make sure that those issues are addressed and we are confident they will be. Both the well-known mayoral aspirants at this stage have already indicated that they will be taking those issues into account. I am sure that the people who sit on the local boards will also understand them from their particular areas and make sure they are addressed. 
The point is that there is so much diversity that for us to try to write it in law would mean that ultimately we would overlook something. It is far better for us to allow the Auckland people to work through that. As I said I think the debate has been very constructive but we need to understand the principle around what we are trying to do here—we are trying to put in place a structure that will work in the best interests of the people of Auckland. For that reason we have endeavoured to allow as much flexibility as possible. 
I want to address a couple of other things. The member from the Green Party raised the issue of council-controlled organisations. He said that a number of people were listening and I certainly hope they are listening now because I want to make some comments in rebuttal of the concerns that member raised with us—namely that we have put a structure in place that is permanent that we are taking away the opportunity for Aucklanders to have their say and that it is non-democratic. 
I am not sure whether the member had the opportunity to hear my response yesterday but the fact is that with the council-controlled organisations although we have put a structure in place to work from day one which is 1 November—so yes it is true that Mr Hide in consultation with the current crop of mayors will appoint five people to the boards leaving two vacant for the council to fill—the council can if it wishes from day one say that it does not like any of those directors and wants to appoint its own people or— 
Phil Twyford 
: That’s a great way to run a council isn’t it? 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: Well I do not think that will happen because we are doing it in consultation with the mayors. The worry that has been expressed is that we are saying: “Here’s a rigid structure that cannot be changed.” I say to the member that that is not so. From day one Aucklanders are in charge. They can replace the directors if they wish to. Even more— 
Phil Twyford 
: Why set the council-controlled organisations at all? 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: The member should listen; he might learn something. The fact is that if Aucklanders do not like the structure of the council-controlled organisations they can do away with them and bring them back as committees of the council. So they are not there permanently with the exception of transport and with the exception of Watercare Services which is there until 2015. We have given the responsibility to the council— 
Phil Twyford 
: That’s two-thirds of the rates. 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: I say to Mr Twyford that it is up to the council. 
Phil Twyford 
: But it’s clearly not up to the council. 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: Bless my soul! I do not know how much more I can express it. I guess we will have to wait and see—wait until after 1 November—when the council makes the decisions. 
Phil Twyford 
: You just admitted that Watercare and transport are statutory. 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: Watercare Services and transport are two big things. The reason in respect of Watercare Services is that we want some continuity. In terms of transport the taxpayer of New Zealand makes a contribution to the roading network in Auckland and has a right to have some say. It is important we do that. But we have as best as we can followed the principle of allowing Aucklanders the Auckland Council and local boards to make sure they are in control and that the council-controlled organisations form under and alongside the local boards and the council. 
I think it is very important for people to understand that it is the intention of this Government to make sure we have given as much flexibility as we possibly could to allow Aucklanders to express their views and have their say. 
Phil Twyford 
: Absolute rubbish. 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: I know that Opposition members want to carry on because the unfortunate thing from their point of view is that we have listened to the people of Auckland and have put in place a structure that pretty much represents the views of the people and the Opposition has nowhere to go. The only thing the Opposition can say is that we have not listened. Actually when we look— 
Phil Twyford 
: Sixty percent of Aucklanders don’t want the council-controlled organisations. 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: I know some polls have been done but there are some issues around those polls I have to say. If we look at what the  
New Zealand Herald 
 reported this morning about the debate we see that it reflected the debate very well. As things are even the  
New Zealand Herald  
is now saying that we have listened and we have heard. 
I know that the Opposition members do not like it but whether or not they like it it is a fact of life that this Government has listened. The select committee worked hard and I have to say it did so with the support of members of the Opposition. It was a good committee that worked. Unfortunately those members seemed to absent themselves towards the end when they did not understand what was happening. In the main we have made some good progress and we have made some very good recommendations to the House. 
I am pleased to say that the people of Auckland are in charge. The voices of Auckland have formed this legislation. The council-controlled organisations are in their hands the local boards are in their hands and the Auckland Council is in the hands of the Auckland people. We could not have asked for better. We have ended up with very good legislation.