Russell DeborahHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour): We started this debate the other day—Thursday 21 March—where we had only a very short time discussing some of the matters relating to Part 1 of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023-24 Multinational Tax and Remedial Matters) Bill. That part is of course the annual rates debate which after a bit of discussion I went back and looked at the previous Hansards and it is supposed to be a pretty free-flowing debate on tax rates and on taxation in general. Obviously not every single little detail of taxation but taxation in general.I did look at what the Minister himself said on Thursday 21 March which he said that he was Looking forward to the opportunity to have a good free-flowing dialogue and debate in regards to the tax bill." So I'm pleased to hear that from the Minister. It's always—Hon Barbara Edmonds: Taking up that challenge.Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: Yes happy to take that on board Minister and go with the flow on this one and perhaps add to it a little bit.Also because there had been a wee bit of a discussion as to how long this debate should go on for I did check what happened back in 2022-23 with this debate and I noted that there is quite a number of calls from Opposition members—an extended amount of calls from Opposition members—on what looks like a very small clause but actually has quite a deal to do with our annual tax rates. In particular I saw someone raised a point of order about whether something was relevant. In fact that someone was me and the speaker in the Chair at the time said it was a very broad-ranging part of the legislation and she did feel some anxiety as we were going over questions again and again but then she said about how "I have given members some leeway considering it is a very broad part of the legislation." And just for clarity that particular ruling came from Poto Williams who was in the Chair at the time. So having sort of laid out all that groundwork there is material that I do think we still need to think about in terms of the annual rates. Oh again just one last point. I sort of had a look at some of the topics that had been raised. Andrew Bayly had quite a good outing in that previous debate. Hon Barbara Edmonds: He's always got a lot to say Andrew Bayly.Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: He has. He talked about tax thresholds trust rates how tax is used to raise money for roads and education etc. the changes to specific thresholds the best approach for the economy in terms of cutting services or shifting tax thresholds tax as a proportion of the economy the issue is "how do we grow the economy"—so I thought that opened it up quite nicely—and actually the hidden economy. Anyway let's see where we get to in actually debating this today. I realise I've taken three minutes now and I will get to something that's right on point. Ha ha! CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): That's OK. The member's largely in line with the comments made. We have to be careful about the expenditure of the tax. It is about the tax and the tax rates and the tax types rather than the expenditure of the tax.Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: Thank you. I'm pretty happy to take that on board Madam Chair. I did see the look that you were giving me so I am—Ha ha!CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): No I was listening to you.Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: It was a very speaking look.CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): I was intent to be listening. Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: Ha ha! So I do just want to traverse a particular point and it comes from the IMF report on the New Zealand economy. The Minister and I spoke about this a little the other day but I do want to just touch on it a bit again. The report said that New Zealand would benefit from a more efficient equitable and sustainable tax system. So I want to direct the Minister's direction to the tax thresholds in particular and to get his opinion on whether or not he thinks that they are equitable.Now of course equitable is an interesting word in tax. It's interpreted in terms of both horizontal equity and in terms of vertical equity. So I'd like to hear what the Minister says about whether or not our current tax thresholds do actually exemplify some form of equity and particularly in terms of both vertical equity and horizontal equity. Especially given that the IMF has directed us to have a look at that."