10. Question No. 10—TransportHon DAVID BENNETT (National) to the Minister of TransportQuestion No. 10—Transport10. Hon DAVID BENNETT (National) to the Minister of Transport: Does he agree with the Motor Industry Association that When combining fees under the clean car discount with penalties under the clean car standard the price for light vehicles will need to increase on average by about 15 to 20 percent to offset the penalties" and what advice has he received on any likely increase in the price of light vehicles as a result of his policies?Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister of Climate Change) on behalf of the Minister of Transport: To the first part of the question no. The fees and rebates under the clean-car discount are applied at the point of registration of the vehicle so do not apply to importers and sellers. As the standard is based on the fleet of vehicles imported by importers they can use a range of vehicles to achieve an average emission that meets the target—for example this allows importers to sell electric and hybrid cars to offset higher-emitting vehicles and achieve compliance. In those instances importers would not be subject to any penalty and therefore it should not affect buyers. To the second part of the question as I said to the previous transport spokesperson on 29 June on this very matter I have received a range of advice on that matter including "a meta-analysis of CO2 standards in OECD and non-OECD countries suggest they do not necessarily lead to noticeable price increases." The ministry's projections expect the price of electric vehicles and petrol hybrids to fall over the period. The risk of supply constraints and price rises is also mitigated by the design of the standard. Its design has been substantially modified from the standard that was consulted upon. Hon David Bennett: Does he stand by Annex 1 of his Cabinet paper "Clean car discount finalising our standing decisions" which details that the car fees will be progressively phased in so that in 2028 even a small car like a Suzuki Swift will be taxed? SPEAKER: I'm going to ask the member to rephrase his question so it relates to either of the parts of the primary question or the answer that was given. Hon David Bennett: When the Minister said that he has received advice on the price impact on new cars that buyers will have when they purchase under these new rules then does he stand by his Cabinet paper which details that car fees will be progressively phased in so that in 2028 even a small car like a Suzuki Swift will be taxed? SPEAKER: No. No advice given to a Minister and Ministers' Cabinet papers are quite different things. Hon David Bennett: Well I'll try again then. Supplementary question—SPEAKER: That's fine but this is your next supplementary. You had one extra go at it. Hon Member: Oh that's a bit unfair. SPEAKER: No it's not unfair if the member can't get it right. He's been a Minister. He knows the difference between advice and Cabinet papers. Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order Mr Speaker. SPEAKER: A point of order the Hon Michael Woodhouse—[Interruption]—and people over there will be quiet. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well if that's the case we could help you. SPEAKER: Order! Mr Brownlee they made their comments before I called Mr Woodhouse. You made them afterwards. Your breach is if possible worse than theirs. Hon Michael Woodhouse: Mr Speaker it's very clear to anybody reading Cabinet papers that the recommendations are the Minister's but the information that is contained in an annex that supports it is the advice that the Minister receives. I think we're dancing on the head of a definitional pin to say that that supplementary question is out of order. SPEAKER: Well my view is that if the member was right it would be the end of ministerial responsibility. Hon Michael Woodhouse: Well speaking to that point the—SPEAKER: No I'm not going to have a debate. I'm going back to David Bennett. Hon David Bennett: Can he confirm that if taxes are phased in on light vehicles the Ministry of Transport modelling shows only a 0.2 percent reduction in New Zealand's emissions in 2030? Hon JAMES SHAW: The combination of policies here are projected to reduce New Zealand's projected greenhouse gas emissions by over 5 million tonnes. Hon David Bennett: Why won't he release a finalised fees schedule before the submissions begin on the clean vehicles bill so that people know what vehicles will be taxed and when? Hon JAMES SHAW: Well I understand that the submissions are important. We actually want to hear from the industry and other people who are involved. Hon David Bennett: Point of order Mr Speaker. He didn't answer the question. He said that submissions were important. I said why wouldn't he release—he should surely answer that. SPEAKER: I will ask the Minister to be more—to have an answer which relates more to the question about the release. Hon JAMES SHAW: Well on behalf of the Minister: I'm actually unable to discuss the release without talking to the Minister but the Government does want to hear from the industry. That's why we've got a full select committee hearing and those issues will be canvassed at the select committee."