McClay ToddHon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): If the Minister was able to show us very very clearly that people with portable toilets and campervans were the ones causing the problems it would be easy; he would have unanimity in the Chamber but I'm sorry Minister I'm not sure it's as straightforward as that. You gave the example I suppose of you know a case where people were camped near a house and there were facilities. There were other areas where people camp and somebody will bring in a portable toilet a stand-up one—you open the door and you go into it—and they'll use that as well. Of course in the case that it was a freedom camping area and somebody had put it there the person that had a certified campervan with a fixed toilet in it would be allowed to camp there. If there was a portable toilet brought a tall one that you rent from you know Kiwi Hire or whatever it's called—it's put there—somebody who had a campervan with a portable toilet inside it would be breaking the law if they were in there. So I agree with you Minister—if they were then camping there and using this other portable toilet. I agree with you that we should focus on the problem and penalise that problem. Nobody wants the waste that we see in places.But the other problem we have with the legislation is it doesn't deal with this because it doesn't say to somebody who has a certified campervan that they must use that toilet; they can do whatever they want with their business and therein lies the problem. The issue is people not using facilities portable or a fixed toilet and where they don't use those they are the ones causing harm to the environment and to our tourist areas and they should be stopped. They should be found they should be fined they should be made to pay those fines and so on but that's not what this legislation does. What this legislation does punitively is focus on New Zealanders whether there is a large percentage or a small percentage of them who have campervans with portable toilets who are responsible. What it does is say to them You can no longer do this even though you are not causing any harm." and I think that's the bit that we need to focus on.Now the last Minister was correct: you do have people driving around in smaller than—they're not really campervans; they're in cars or station wagons sleeping in the back and they have a bucket in it and call it a toilet. Well of course that's not what we're talking about but actually if we look at the great amount of regulation that this bill is going to create a huge amount of regulation it's surely not too much for us to ask for plumbers or gasfitters or somebody else to do some work and come up with a clear definition of what a portable toilet is the standards that are required—just as the standards that will be required for a fixed toilet will also be decided—and that it must be used and where it is used you are able to freedom camp. It may not be a large group of New Zealanders it may not be hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders but it probably is 10 or 20000 Kiwis who are responsible. They do this often: they go camping they have a portable toilet. Sometimes they're in a campground with facilities; other times they're not. They are in areas they're allowed to camp but under this legislation under law they won't be able to even though they're being responsible and they're using a portable toilet properly responsibly—well it'll be breaking the laws and they will be up for a fine and I think that is the largest part of the problem with this legislation.To many it may not seem like a big deal—well they can go somewhere else—but what we are doing is saying that we are going to restrict their freedoms because some other people pollute and are not responsible and there's not many of you so it doesn't matter. Well I don't think that is the responsible thing for this House to do. Actually it's a very very large Supplementary Order Paper; there are lots of regulations that will come as a result of it. To get the officials to get it right not us in this House but other experts can come up with a clear definition of what a portable toilet is actually to a standard that's acceptable that will be used as much as a fixed one and that if they are not used that's the penalty not the penalty or the fine in using a portable toilet in a vehicle that's not certified then we would be doing a better job. It may only be 20 or 30000 Kiwis but these are hard-working people that are responsible New Zealanders that don't deserve to be lumbered in with those who are not meeting their responsibility and defecating all over the country."