Williamson Maurice: Urgent Debates — Toll Holdings—Rail and Ferry Purchase 
Williamson Maurice: Urgent Debates — Toll Holdings—Rail and Ferry Purchase 
[Volume:647;Page:15861] 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I am delighted to take part in this debate and to say to the House first of all that I would really like some questions to be answered. The question that needs to be answered here is how many members of this House really believe that it requires Government ownership of an entity to make it work effectively. [ 
Interruption 
] Let me take Sue Moroney through the question. Does she think it would be more effective if say the farms of this land were owned by the Government? There is a model out there in the world where the Government owns the farm and the peasant workers work on it. It is called communism and it is stamped in Eastern Europe as “Best Before 1990”. But I believe that Sue Moroney probably thinks that that is how our farms would be run in the best way. Michael Cullen could easily be upstairs right now negotiating to buy back the farms. 
Let us take it further. What about manufacturing in the factories? Who believes that manufacturing and production in factories would work better if those factories were Government-owned? I ask the members of the House who think that to put up their hands. Again not one member’s hand has gone up. This is interesting. No one thinks that. Members clearly think it would be better if the private sector kept hold of the manufacturing sector. 
It does not mean we cannot put some subsidies in place if we think certain things need to happen. The Government does that all the time with research and development tax credits and other things. That is what the Government does if it decides it wants one particular part of industry grow or one particular part of industry to change. So through financing and subsidies it can achieve that outcome—but not through ownership not through buying New Zealand Steel or Comalco or any of the other major manufacturing or production outfits. 
Let us carry on. How about we go with some other things? How about if those members think it would be better if the Government owned coastal shipping? I hear that is a big part of the integrated strategy. [ 
Interruption 
] Coastal shipping! Wow—we will see Michael Cullen out negotiating with Rod Grout in a few days to buy back the coastal shipping operations! Of course it is nonsense. It is absolute nonsense. Ownership does not determine efficient use of an asset. 
I ask another question. How many members of this House think rail was run efficiently and effectively when it was Government-owned? I want to have a look at this—I have not seen even a Green member’s hand go up on this one. I will repeat the question in case it was not clear. How many people think that New Zealand Rail was run effectively and efficiently when it was Government-owned? 
Shane Ardern 
: I want my tractor back. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Right! I think Shane Ardern raises a really good issue. He wants his tractor back. The stories were legendary. In fact New Zealand Rail did one thing brilliantly—let us get that right. It employed lots of people. It was actually a Government repository for unemployment. It spilled them on to the railway network. But if we look at the freight carried per employee when the Government owned it we see that it was a disaster. It was by any world standard of any transport sector a disaster and that lot over there are telling us that that is what we are going to go back to with the Government owning it. 
There is another thing we could do. I have the calendar here. We can get it out and mark the first day of the school holidays. That is what I want members of the public to do from now on. If they are going to be travelling they should get their calendars out work out when the school holidays are work out when the Christmas break is and work out when Easter starts and they should not go near the ferries on those days. I am telling them now what will happen—they will be on strike. We know they will be on strike. The unions would love to strike lots more but they have been a bit hamstrung under their previous ownership. The change in ownership has freed them up brilliantly. The Government now owns them and the unions are saying: “We can take these guys to the cleaners and they will either have to pay us or we’ll knacker them.” What a stupid thing to expose oneself to—to become the new owner of an old asset that was stuffed anyway and then say that it was run hopelessly by the Government in the past the Government will overpay for it and now the public will get a good deal! 
I have not seen a single hand go up to one of these questions today. Not one member of the House! Not even the Greens thought rail was run effectively and efficiently when it was Government-owned. Now we get this grubby secret little deal where we will not get the facts about how much was spent. We will not know what was actually done in terms of giving access to a sweetheart deal. 
Interestingly Peter Brown raised the case of Mainfreight. Mainfreight liked the deal he said. That is not quite true. Mainfreight has the most schizophrenic view of this world I have ever heard. Its chief executive Don Brain said it was a great idea and Richard Prebble who was a director of the company—a long-time director—said it was a disaster and an outrage. So Mainfreight better get its act together. It has a senior director of its board of representatives saying it is an outrage and its chief executive saying it is a great idea. So I do not think we can take Mainfreight’s view into account. It has two totally different views. [ 
Interruption 
] 
That is right. I should come back to the lost tractor. We should not tell too many stories but Richard Prebble told us about one time when a wagon got shunted off the end of the wharf here in Wellington. They finally decided they had better put some divers down to find it. They brought in the navy divers and the floating crane and down they went. When the divers came up they said: “Which one’s yours?”. There were six freight wagons down in the ocean. They had been bumped off the end of the wharf but no one cared. 
There was a story about a farmer who got so angry about his tractor not showing up that we went out in search of it. He found it somewhere. I have a story about my uncle. This is a great story. Shane Ardern will know this man. He owned butchers shops in Opunake. His name was Ernie Poole. He had a horse that was a New Zealand champion. Actually Sue Moroney’s family will be able to repeat this. The horse’s name was Wandering Ways. It was the first 2-year-old or 3-year-old to win the Easter Cup. Do members know why its name was Wandering Ways? He bought it at the yearling sales. He had it shipped to Opunake and 4 months later the horse was found somewhere in Northland because New Zealand Rail had lost it. I swear to members that that New Zealand champion horse’s name was Wandering Ways because of the way rail had taken him all around the country. That is what we will go back to. 
Hon Member 
: He got it as a 2-year-old. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Yes he bought it as a yearling and got it as a 2-year-old! The thing was skin and bone. Everyone is laughing; this is a great joke and this is what we will go back to. The Government has talked about how we need rail to be integrated with our transport strategy. Does that mean we will buy the trucks? Does that mean we will buy the ships? Does that mean we will buy the taxis? No we do not need to buy any of those parts. 
Moana Mackey 
: Are you going to sell them? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: There is the stupid Moana Mackey asking whether we will sell them. [ 
Interruption 
] I am just asking her whether we need to own— 
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I take exception on behalf of Moana Mackey to the comment that the member in his excitement made. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: I am sorry but the member cannot take exception on behalf of another member. That member herself has to take objection. 
Moana Mackey 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I understand that the member is getting excited but I did take exception to that comment. I do not think it was warranted. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: So you are asking for a withdrawal? 
Moana Mackey 
: A withdrawal and an apology. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I withdraw and apologise. If that is the worst thing I can do today then that Government should withdraw and apologise for its proposal to buy this stupid rail system. The point I am trying to get over time and time again to those members is that if the Government wants to do things in the transport sector then it can get into regulations it can get into subsidies it can get into rules if it wants to to change outcomes. But the Government does not need to be the owner. Who for example sold Telecom? That is a good question. Who decided that while the telephone company was owned by the Crown it was a disaster? It had 25000 employees and I think within 4 years of privatisation that number had dropped to 7000. Who sold it? Was it that dreadful National Government? Help me on this. No—members are shaking their heads. No it was not National. You see the Government did not need to achieve outcomes through ownership. There are all sorts of ways. 
Shane Ardern 
: It was Helen Clark. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Helen Clark was the Deputy Prime Minister and Michael Cullen was the Associate Minister of Finance when Telecom was sold. That is who sold Telecom. All I am saying to members on that side is that if they had wanted to get some outcomes in rail—and I accept they want to move more freight and we have not yet heard how that will happen—ownership is not necessary. Why does ownership change the outcome? According to Jeanette Fitzsimons it costs one-fifth as much to move freight on a train as it costs on a truck. If that is the case if one were a freight forwarder one would have to be mad to use trucks. It is not quite as simple as that. Trucking companies give flexibility. They give discounts and all sorts of access to networks. 
Shane Ardern 
: And they deliver the goods. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Yes—and the horse shows up the next day and does not get called Wandering Ways. That is exactly right. I heard Jeanette Fitzsimons say that the other good thing about the rail is that the vast bulk of it is electrified and we are using renewable energy. That is not true. A huge chunk in the growth in electricity generation in this country has been from fossil fuel burning. If the Government thinks that that is good for the nation it is wrong. 
The National Party is totally absolutely opposed to the Government’s purchase of the railways. We think there has been no transparency whatsoever. The sums of money paid are appalling and the way the outcomes the Government says it is trying to achieve will be achieved have not in any way been documented to this House.