Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:607;Page:4407] 
3.  
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations 
: Why does the Initialled Deed of Settlement for presentation to Ngati Awa provide for owners of Kaingaroa Forest land to pay access fees to use roads on a willing but not anxious arms length basis? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) 
: 
 The deed of settlement provides a mechanism for access across land offered to Ngati Awa in the Kaingaroa Forest to be negotiated on commercial terms in order to achieve the overriding purpose of ensuring that access can be obtained over that land into the future. The mechanism uses language commonly used in contractual documents where the objective is to achieve a commercial market rate. Owners of the forest land will be able to use this mechanism if they need to obtain access for themselves or their occupiers such as forestry companies operating on their land. 
Stephen Franks 
: What is the Minister’s idea of property rights that means Crown forestry licence holders can be threatened with having to pay again to use their own roads that they have bought and paid for when she will not even ask Ngati Awa to give an assurance they will not demand money they have no right to; and will she guarantee that the police will protect the foresters’ peaceful use of their own property? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: There has been considerable negotiation on this matter. There is a difference of opinion as to the precise nature of the rights and that is why the matter will now be referred to the court for a declaratory judgment on that part of the document. 
Mita Ririnui 
: Will the Ngati Awa deed of settlement affect the rights of the licensee? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: In the Crown’s view no. This is because the deed explicitly states in clause 4.7G(4) that it does not affect the rights of the licensee. The deed clearly states that “this clause does not affect the rights of the licensee under the Crown forestry licences”. As I have already stated the deed provides a mechanism to enable access to be negotiated on commercial terms. 
Hon Georgina te Heuheu 
: How long has the Government known that access would be an issue and why has the Minister left it to the last minute to resolve thereby putting in jeopardy the Ngati Awa settlement after 6 years of negotiations and a year after she signed the initial heads of agreement with them? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The matter has been known since 1995 when the licences were set up under that member’s Government. So in that sense it has been known to all parties that they would be affected by it. Yes the matter has been subject to negotiation with the parties but the parties are entitled to exercise their rights and the licensee has. Certainly we have been in constant discussion and negotiation with Ngati Awa and we will be signing the deed tomorrow. 
Dail Jones 
: What action will the Minister be taking to ensure that these property rights are capable of being registered in the Land Transfer Office against the title in terms of the Land Transfer Act and land legislation? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: If that is a matter of relevance in this instance it is for the court to declare upon that and we will wait for the judgment of the court. 
Murray Smith 
: What is the expected timing for Ngati Awa to meet mandating requirements and for the enacting legislation to be introduced? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: Ngati Awa met mandating requirements years ago. When the deed is signed tomorrow it will be subject to the ratification of a governance arrangement and then reduced to legislation which will be introduced into this House. 
Dail Jones 
: Why is the Minister who is in charge of this area failing to ensure that a proper document is completed to enable these rights to be registered under the Land Transfer Act—a responsibility surely of this Government not of the courts? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The Government has fulfilled its rights on behalf of the Crown in presenting a document. However as the member will know from time to time there are differing opinions as to the interpretation of that document. The court is the legitimate place for that legitimate difference of interpretation to be decided upon. 
Dail Jones 
: Is the Minister telling this House that the Government will prepare documents but that it expects the court to legitimise its otherwise possibly illegitimate document? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: No. The Crown considers the document to be perfectly legitimate as do all the other parties. However there is one clause upon which there is a difference of opinion.