2. Question No. 2—Internal AffairsHon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition) to the Minister of Internal AffairsQuestion No. 2—Internal Affairs2. Hon SIMON BRIDGES (Leader of the Opposition) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Does she have confidence in the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care?Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Minister of Internal Affairs): Personally I have already expressed my disappointment and dismay at the information that I found out today. However the member is asking me as the Minister of Internal Affairs and as a lawyer he should know that the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions is independent of the Government and I have no role in its operational matters. The appointment of the survivor panel and the attendance at its meetings—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Order! Can the member resume her seat. This is an area again which some people regard as being very serious and I want to hear the response and I'm having trouble hearing it as a result of the noise from my left.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: The appointment of the survivor panel and the attendance at its meetings are very much operational matters. As Minister the issue of confidence as set out in law relates only to the conduct of the commissioners. I would say today that confidence has been shaken.Hon Simon Bridges: Why was a convicted child sex offender allowed to attend meetings with survivors of sexual assault and be alone with one of them without her knowing of his previous offending?Hon Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think as the Minister has just outlined in her primary answer she doesn't actually have ministerial responsibility for that. A royal commission is independent by nature. There is a very very narrow range of ministerial responsibility for a royal commission.SPEAKER: No no I don't need any assistance to deal with this. This Minister is responsible to this House for that royal commission and in my opinion it is no different from a State-owned enterprise. While she has no operational responsibility for it she is the only person who can answer in Parliament for matters to do with the royal commission.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: As I mentioned the independent royal commission of inquiry is separate from the Government specifically so that there is no political influence. This was specifically requested by the survivors—that there could be no political interference in the royal commission and operational matters particularly. And that goes both ways. You can't just apply the law and the independence of a royal commission of inquiry when it suits one. I do want to point out however to the House that to say in a tweet—and I quote—To have a paedophile on this inquiry is an abhorrent breach of trust by the Government." misrepresents the commissioners who are on the royal commission. None of the commissioners on the royal commission of inquiry are convicted paedophiles and that tweet should not have been put out into the public domain because that does rock the confidence of the survivor community.Hon Simon Bridges: Why was there no police vetting of applications for those associated with the survivor advocacy group and why did it take three months to do anything in respect of the convicted child sex offender when they knew he had a conviction—SPEAKER: Three questions.Hon Simon Bridges: —and had to notify police of his whereabouts three days in advance?SPEAKER: Answer one of the four.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Again I'm surprised at this line of questioning from a lawyer who should understand what an independent royal commission of inquiry means. With regard to operational matters and my ability to be involved which is literally nil—Hon Dr Nick Smith: Take some responsibility.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Mr Smith if you wish for political people to now be involved in independent royal commissions of inquiry then I suggest you move to change the law. These are operational matters and I would suggest that the member—and he quite rightly can ask those questions—should ask them of the independent royal commission of inquiry.Hon Member: Phoney lawyer!Hon Simon Bridges: When—SPEAKER: Order! No don't look behind yourself Mr Jones. It's not helped by the group in that quarter.Hon Simon Bridges: When was she or her office made aware that a convicted child sex offender was supporting a member of the royal commission survivor advocacy group and what actions did she or her office take?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: At 5 past 8 this morning I was made aware of statements by the Hon Simon Bridges. That is the first I knew of the situation that has arisen and that is completely appropriate with the independence of a royal commission of inquiry. They have no requirement to report to me except in the pre-stated report periods inside the terms of reference. They are not required to inform me under any no-surprises policy because of the independence of the royal commission inquiry demanded by the law demanded by the survivors and I would suggest if I was interfering in a way that the Opposition did not like demanded by the Opposition.Rt Hon Winston Peters: In the Minister's inquiries with respect to the information received by Mr Bridges did he go to the commission with it or did he go public with it?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: At this time I do not know if Mr Bridges ever contacted the royal commission of inquiry which would have been the most legal the most appropriate way to ask the questions that he wants answers to. They are questions that are valid they are questions that should be asked but he is asking the wrong person.Hon Simon Bridges: Why is it that others including the National Party have more oversight and knowledge of the royal commission and what is happening than she does?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I could make a couple of suggestions but none of them would probably be allowed in the House. I follow the law Mr Bridges. I make sure that I do not interfere in any way shape or form with independent royal commissions of inquiry. I follow process. That is what I have been asked to do and charged to do. So how the Opposition gets their information I'm not quite sure. But if he would like to go to the press and say that he got it officially from the royal commission of inquiry I would look forward to that release.Hon Simon Bridges: Where in the law does it say that Ministers should be wilfully blind of what happens on royal commissions? [Speaker gestures for Minister to sit] After a variety of issues with the royal commission shouldn't there have been processes in place so she knew about matters such as the child sex offender's conviction and the lack of action in relation to it?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: What Mr Bridges is now asking me to do is to work outside the law—is to work outside the parameters of a royal commission of inquiry. He's asking me to breach the independence of an inquiry to put pressure on commissioners and to go down there and influence an inquiry when I was specifically asked not to. I would like to put on the record the only way for commissioners to be removed from office: first of all "The Governor-General may by Order in Council remove any member of a public inquiry from office."—because only the Governor-General can for an independent royal commission of inquiry. "The appointing Minister may by notice in the Gazette remove any member of a government inquiry from office." This is not a Government inquiry; this is a royal commission of inquiry. "A member of an inquiry may be removed under subsection (1) or (2) as the case may be but only—(a) due to the misconduct of the member; or (b) if the member is unable to perform the functions of office; or (c) if the member has neglected his or her duty." Those are the only ways that any Minister can take any action in an independent royal commission of inquiry.Hon Simon Bridges: Shouldn't she have been told about the processes and failures and known?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I would very much have liked to have been informed prior to an inaccurate tweet put out by that member but this is an independent royal commission of inquiry. I do not know what happened under that Government that that member belonged to and whether people interfered with royal commissions of inquiry or other inquiries but that is not how this side of the House works. We follow the law. We follow the process. It is an independent royal commission of inquiry.Hon Simon Bridges: What responsibility does she take in all of this?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I have tried again and again and again to explain to that member the law. That member I believe is a lawyer. I carry the responsibility as outlined in the statutes that I read and those are the responsibilities I will carry out.Hon Simon Bridges: Will she apologise to the survivors who met with the convicted child sex offender?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I have already in the media said I am incredibly dismayed and feel strongly for those survivors. I had no knowledge prior to 5 minutes past 8 this morning. I would ask that member: will he apologise to the commissioners for erroneously suggesting that one of them is a paedophile? SPEAKER: No no—I'm just warning the Minister now to take a little bit of care here. I mean I know that commissioners are not judges but we do need to treat them with the appropriate respect and repeating things like that does not help.Hon Simon Bridges: What does she say to survivors who are looking to pull out of the inquiry as they're losing trust in the process with one saying she signed up to be heard by the inquiry but is reconsidering because she no longer feels the inquiry is a safe place to disclose what happened to her as a child?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I would encourage her to make sure that she communicates that to the inquiry. The survivors asked for this inquiry to be independent of all political influence. I will respect their wishes. But I ask survivors to make sure that they articulate their concerns directly to the inquiry. They have the right to demand better and I ask them to go and do that. Hon Simon Bridges: Given her "severe concerns" about the royal commission's decision-making abilities will someone be held accountable?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I cannot hold anybody accountable for an independent royal commission of inquiry. Under the three criteria that are there I could if there was evidence provided and I am yet to receive advice on one of the three reasons why a member of an inquiry could be removed. I would then have to take my recommendation to Cabinet. Cabinet would have to pass that paper and that recommendation would have to go to the Governor-General. The Governor-General is the only person who can remove a commissioner from the royal commission of inquiry.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You reminded the House earlier that this was an important matter. You also affirmed I think two previous Speakers' rulings that can be found on page 160—both 1 and 3 on that page. I wonder if you might in your review of question time consider whether or not the Minister has acted as the Speakers' rulings would require because it seems to me quite clear that repeatedly saying "I am not responsible." does not absolve the Minister from being answerable to the House. SPEAKER: The member is absolutely right and I think that is consistent with the ruling I gave earlier. There is a requirement on the Minister to answer and take responsibility in the House. That does not mean that she has responsibility for what happens as part of the administration of an independent royal commission. It's very similar I think to the Minister for Courts and his responsibility to the House so I don't think there's any need for a review."