Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:623;Page:18578] 
3.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What amount of Government funding did Te Wananga o Aotearoa receive in the last financial year and is the wananga meeting his expectations relating to financial management? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 I am advised that the Tertiary Education Commission funding to the wananga was $239 million approximately. I am yet to be convinced that the taxpayer got value for money from that expenditure. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Why does that massive level of funding of $239 million in 1 year continue when the Government’s own representative on the wananga council Graeme McNally advised in December that there has been a serious breakdown in financial management with a prevailing culture of non-accountability and extravagance in wananga spending by senior management? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think that probably Mr McNally’s report was one of the reasons I said that I am yet to be convinced that the taxpayer has had value for money from the system that was set up by the previous National Government. 
Tariana Turia 
: Does the Minister agree with the comments made by his previous Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) the Hon Steve Maharey on 17 May 2004 when he stated that: “Maori enrolled in tertiary education is one of the great success stories of this Government and the bulk of Maori tertiary enrolments are at wananga but the majority are at Te Wananga o Aotearoa which is providing a staircase into higher learning for tens of thousands of Maori who have never participated in tertiary education before.”? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think the degree of agreement goes to the quality in the staircasing that actually occurs and that is something that I want to see more evidence of. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Is it appropriate for the wananga to offer a security guard course to students in Queensland Australia with flights accommodation apparel and passport costs etc. provided free of charge as inducements to enrol and to get New Zealand taxpayers’ funding for that? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Not if it is getting New Zealand taxpayers’ funding. I do not know that that is the case for that course. 
Tariana Turia 
: How many State agencies have scrutinised Te Wananga o Aotearoa over the past 2 years? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I know that the Audit Office has someone whom I have appointed who is currently there the Tertiary Education Commission is having a look and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has had a look but that does not mean that there is a satisfactory result yet. I want to make it very clear to the House that there has been a large increase of funding in the area and I am not yet convinced that we have value for money. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Can the Minister explain to the House how it is that he does not know that the country’s biggest university which I understand the wananga now is— 
Hon Member 
: Southern Hemisphere. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is to be no interjection during question time. This time I will be generous. Please start the question again. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: How can the Minister say to this House that he does not know whether this institution which is now the largest university in the Southern Hemisphere may actually be providing courses in being a security guard in Queensland Australia when he said he is aware he has had an adverse report when he has sent in all those officials; and when the wananga is spending $239 million does he not think he has some obligation to know the answers to those sorts of questions? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think a number of questions sit in there and I would like to correct one impression straight away. The wananga is not a university and it is very important that people understand it is not a university—notwithstanding its inappropriate advertising which indicates that it is. A number of Australian institutions offer courses in New Zealand and that is allowed under our rules. Our institutions are allowed to offer courses offshore. The key is that they are not allowed to use New Zealand equivalent full-time student funding to do so. If they are that money will be recovered. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Why don’t you know? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. As Mr Prebble indicated I had not quite completed my answer unfortunately. Universities in New Zealand and other tertiary education institutions offer tens of thousands of courses. I do not know the list off by heart. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Why not? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am perfectly happy for the Minister to complete his answer. Mr Prebble had quite a detailed question. The Minister was trying to complete the answer. I did not think it was an especially controversial one. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. While the Minister was on his feet I am afraid that the honourable Tariana Turia called out an epithet accusing him of a position that was very unparliamentary. I know that neither the Minister nor you would have heard it but we certainly did and I think she should be asked to withdraw and apologise. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If the member used an unparliamentary phrase I ask her to withdraw and apologise. 
Tariana Turia 
: I withdraw and apologise. I seek leave to table the Hon Steve Maharey’s press release of 17 May 2004 praising Te Wananga o Aotearoa. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is there any objection? There is. 
Kenneth Wang 
: Just a point of order. I just want to know from the Minister— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is this a question? 
Kenneth Wang 
: What control or management system has been put in place to monitor the spending of the $239 million of taxpayers’ money by Te Wananga o Aotearoa? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Is this a question rather than a point of order? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is a question. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: There has been extensive monitoring as I outlined to the House earlier. I am not sure yet whether we have got to the bottom of the issue—that is whether in fact the vast number of people who go to the courses actually graduate on to something worthwhile. The wananga argues that they do. We are yet to see the evidence of it. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My colleague Kenneth Wang raised that as a point of order. I hope for the sake of the record that it is recorded as such and that the Minister was responding to that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. The member asked a question. I specifically asked him about that and he did ask a question. However I will take that into consideration.