Brash Don: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brash Don: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:623;Page:18789] 
1. Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she stand by her statement regarding Te Wananga o Aotearoa that “Maybe the growth has outgrown the capacity to have proper governance”; if so is she satisfied that the Government has taken adequate steps to control growth at the wananga? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes growth appears to have exceeded governance capacity. I am satisfied that the Government has taken a number of steps to deal with the problems. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that in 2003 the Government announced new rules to cap growth in tertiary institutions but that Steve Maharey explicitly allowed the wananga to breach this cap because of allegedly “exceptional circumstances”; if so can she also confirm that had the cap been applied in 2004 then the wananga would have received approximately $80 million less in Government funding? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am well aware that the managing growth policy was announced in 2003. I am well aware that there was an agreement with the wananga and the Tertiary Education Commission to manage the growth caps at that time. I am also well aware that as a result the number of equivalent full-time students paid for at the wananga fell from over 34000 to under 30000 in 2004. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: What advice has been tendered to the Government by the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit the Government’s monitor of tertiary institutions’ financial management about the growth of the wananga and its capacity for proper governance; and when was such advice tendered? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member would need to put a question with that level of detail to the Minister. What I can say to him is that looking back over the contact there has been with the wananga over a number of years there have been a number of audits. There have been requirements that clearly were not being met which the Government has worked to put right. So we have taken a number of steps to deal with these issues. 
Rodney Hide 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the National Government granted Crown tertiary status to Te Wananga o Aotearoa in 1993 thereby setting the seed for its phenomenal growth by establishing the policy of funding the Maori university by the number of students enrolled and has she had any indication from the National Party that that is no longer its policy? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Yes I am aware of those matters and no I have not had an indication that it is no longer the National Party’s policy. I am also aware that uncapping the number of equivalent full-time students was particularly helpful to the wananga. I am aware that in April 1999 the Waitangi Tribunal released its Wananga Capital Establishment Report and that the National Government pursuant to the tribunal’s report announced interim capital injections for the wananga. I want to acknowledge that ACT has raised a number of issues that have caused us to make further inquiries—issues that were never raised by the National Party because Mr Wetere has been a longstanding active high profile member. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is it Government policy especially when $239 million per annum is involved that the payment of money to organisations like the wananga is withheld until assurance concerning policies procedures accountability and governance is satisfied; if so who is responsible for signing off assurance in that respect? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: In respect of the suspensory loan that did come up to Ministers and Ministers were not satisfied that the conditions for paying that money had been met—and no money will be paid until conditions are met. 
Gordon Copeland 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was a good response about the— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: What is the point of order? 
Gordon Copeland 
: I do not believe that the question I asked has been addressed. I did not really mention anything about a suspensory loan; I just asked about the $239 million. I mentioned that figure specifically. That was the subject of my question and I do not believe that the Prime Minister addressed that part of it. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I would like to elaborate because in the course of looking at what has happened at the wananga I have come to know of a number of practices that have been in place for about the last 16 years that I do not consider satisfactory. One of those is the practice of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority delegating the ability to approve sub-degree programmes to the so-called academic boards of tertiary educational institutions like wananga and polytechnics. I think that has contributed to the growth of courses of low quality. I might say that it was a system the National Party was perfectly happy to preside over. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I remind people that interjections have to be in the third person. Please do not bring me into the debate. 
Tariana Turia 
: Is there one law for all in this country; if so why can universities call themselves wananga and provide courses to Maori students and fail many but wananga cannot call themselves universities and are being told not to provide courses to non-Maori students? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: People pass or fail at universities on their merits. My understanding of the broad definition of wananga would be “house of learning” and no doubt universities in an endeavour to ensure they are using two languages have used the term “wananga”. But what I cannot accept given the protected definition of universities in our law and the clear criteria of what is a university is that the wananga calls itself one. It is not a university and that is why the Government has taken that matter to the Registrar of Companies. 
Dr Don Brash 
: As the Prime Minister presided over a Cabinet that increased funding for Te Wananga o Aotearoa from $5 million in the last year of the National Government administration to $239 million last year did she turn her mind to assess whether her Government was getting value for money for New Zealand taxpayers; if so what conclusion did she reach? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is my view that processes set in train for course approval from the time of the Education Act 1989 and the process of uncapping equivalent full-time student numbers in 1998 by the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech have led to a situation where value has not been got for money—and we will deal with it just as members opposite never did. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is the Prime Minister aware that the State Services Commission has developed guidelines to ensure that relatives of managers and executives are employed only via an open and unbiased process and is it her view that equivalent employment processes should be a prerequisite before $239 million of taxpayers’ funds is handed over to Te Wananga o Aotearoa or to any equivalent organisation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is indeed my view that tertiary education institutions as defined by the law should act in a way consistent with guidelines set out by the State Services Commission. It is one thing for family businesses to employ whomever they like but it is another thing for an institution mandated under the law to practise nepotism—that is reprehensible. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Is she aware of the statement in 2003 made by her colleague Steve Maharey who was then the Minister responsible for tertiary education that the Government was “delighted with the growth of Te Wananga o Aotearoa” and “did not have concerns with the quality of courses they provided”; if so does this continue to be the Government’s view? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I certainly have concern about the quality of courses and not only in the wananga. That is why we are doing something about it.