Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:609;Page:6545] 
2.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader—ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: At what time on what date did he learn that the Government proposed to introduce legislation extinguishing any customary title Maori might have over New Zealand’s foreshore and seabed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 No such decision was made. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Did he advise the Prime Minister and the Hon Margaret Wilson of the consequences of legislation overriding Maori customary title; and if he did on what date did he offer that advice? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No decision has been made to extinguish anything so there was not a need for any advice at that time. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Noting that all our main daily newspapers have reported both the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General saying that the Government has decided to advance legislation to make it plain that title in the foreshore and seabed rests with the Crown how can the Minister say credibly in this House that that has not happened? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It does not exclude customary title. 
Mita Ririnui 
: What is the Government doing to address Maori concerns? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: We have formed a high-level committee—[ 
Interruption 
]—led by the eloquent Deputy Prime Minister of this country and the goal is to ensure that on the way to nationhood we get a positive result. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: From this moment I am not warning any members again about interjections during question time. 
Dail Jones 
: Will the Minister support any move to ensure that the Crown has legal title to the foreshore and the seabed as opposed to any Maori claim to the foreshore and the seabed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The Government is working out how to reconcile customary rights with all New Zealanders’ ability to access the foreshore and seabed. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: Is the Minister aware that there is widespread concern both inside and outside Parliament about the intended legislation and what steps is he taking to ensure that the Government engages directly with Maori before it makes any moves to legislate? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Yes and I have been able to assure Maori through the Maori media and the several contacts we have that there is a process to deal with their concerns. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Did he inform the Prime Minister of his view released publicly last night: “… the consent of tangata whenua is required before customary title can be extinguished. Otherwise it is confiscation”; if so what was her response and does that statement amount to Government policy? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The Prime Minister is well informed of my views. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What does that mean? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: That is what I said. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. On a very serious matter the Minister was asked what his advice—as Minister of Maori Affairs and indeed the Maori Minister in that Cabinet—was to the Prime Minister. He said: “The Prime Minister is well informed of my views.” That is not advice to the House on any matter that we are seeking information on. I ask you to ask him to answer the question—as one would expect in any Western democracy. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need the last comment being made. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I do. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not—and the member is warned. I will not warn him again or he will be going. I want to say to the Hon Parekura Horomia that perhaps he might like to expand on his answer just a little bit further. If the question is required to be asked again it can be. [ 
Interruption 
] Please ask the question again. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Did the Minister inform the Prime Minister of his view released last night publicly: “… the consent of tangata whenua is required before customary title can be extinguished. Otherwise it is confiscation” and does that statement represent Government policy? 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was not the question he asked. The last part is different. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not the question that was originally asked. I listened to the question. It followed very closely the question that was asked before but the very last part was slightly different. I will let the Hon Dr Nick Smith re-ask the question now. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It would be helpful to Dr Smith—given that some of us think that he did ask that question as it was asked the first time—if it was pointed out which bit differed. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any assistance. I will make that decision. I will have Dr Smith asking the question. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I did try to make it brief to save the time of the House but I will read the question exactly as I originally stated. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is right. That is what I asked the member to do. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Did the Minister inform the Prime Minister of his view released last night publicly: “… the consent of tangata whenua is required before customary title can be extinguished. Otherwise it is confiscation”; if so what was her response and does that statement represent Government policy? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The Prime Minister saw the statement before it was released and it is not Government policy. It was a collective decision come to by the Maori caucus getting together. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If as Judge Hingston said in 1993 customary title is not extinguished and the Prime Minister says that she intends to have that overturned by legislation what will the Maori caucus be negotiating—a decision having already been made by the Prime Minister’s announcement? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No one has said that and most certainly in 1993 not too much was done about this issue and we are trying to do something about it as collective Maori members in this Government. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister’s answer was “No one has said that.” Well I have; it was in the question and it is a recitation of what the Prime Minister said when she came out and announced that she intended to have this law overturned. So for the Minister to begin his answer with “No one has said that.” when the Prime Minister has and I have repeated her statement is simply not answering the question in any way at all. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I think the member may have missed the early part of question time and therefore perhaps missed the earlier answers that no such decision as referred to in the principal question has been made. The Prime Minister did not make that statement. The fact that it has been reported as such is neither here nor there. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is perfectly correct. The member’s point of order is invalid. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Given that chapter 3 of the  
Cabinet Office Manual 
 requires that all statements of Ministers be consistent with Government policy and further states: “Ministers whose opposition to a Cabinet decision is such that they wish to publicly disassociate themselves from it must resign from the Cabinet.” how can his statement last night be anything other than a statement of Government policy or a resignation? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No decision has been made to extinguish anything—and I do not intend to resign. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why did the Associate Minister of Justice and Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Margaret Wilson tell the Holmes show yesterday morning that the Government intended to overturn this law if that is not the Government’s intention; and that being the case where does he stand on the issue of Cabinet collective responsibility? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is about to be expelled from the Chamber. A question has been asked and the Minister is entitled to give an answer. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I was distracted. Could the member ask the question again please? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why did his colleague Margaret Wilson the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations and the Associate Minister of Justice tell the Paul Holmes show yesterday morning on ZB radio that the Government intended to overturn this law—and the issue then about what the Maori members would be negotiating was the real point of that debate—when he claims now that no such decision has been made; and where does that leave him on the issue of collective Cabinet responsibility? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No decision has been made to extinguish anything. Furthermore for the first time for a long time the Maori caucus is in clear negotiation with the committee set up by this Government which takes this issue very very seriously on the way to better nationhood. 
Rodney Hide 
: Could the Minister tell this House and tell Maori people in particular what Government policy is—is it what the Prime Minister announced at 3 o’clock after Cabinet on Monday or what he signed and put out to the media last night? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Customary rights are a public issue and policy can be determined and defined in a whole lot of ways planned and progressed forward. That member should learn about that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister put his finger on it at the end of that answer when he said that members should learn about it—and that is what we are trying to do. We are trying to learn what the Government’s policy is and that is what he was asked. He has not answered that question. Frankly if we go to other democracies we will find Ministers who have been asked questions answering them. We can watch channel 13 on Aussie television after 4 30 p.m. and see questions answered in the House but here— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please be seated! The member has come to the point of order; I understand what it is. He is now using extraneous matter which has nothing to do with the particular point he is raising. The Minister did address the question. The last sentence was unnecessary. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I realise that I am treading on dangerous ground raising this point of order but the question was a simple one: what is Government policy? The Minister while he said words did not address that question. I honestly ask you in the interests of maintaining some respect and order in this Parliament that Ministers be expected at least to address a question. I say to you that there is no way that the Minister’s answers on that point could ever be taken to be addressing the question of what Government policy is or what the Prime Minister said. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I judge the question and I listen to the answer. I am not here to judge the quality of the answer or the question. I am here to see that the question is properly asked and that the answer is addressing the question. In this case it did. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Minister this question because his constituents would want to know and so does the country: who does he believe— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please ask the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Yes I will do that and I will get an answer from it too. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. Please be seated. Now the member is in grave danger—he is abusing the question procedure. The question has to be a question. Please ask that question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Who does Mr Horomia believe owns the customary title to the foreshore and seabed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Being one of the tangata whenua I have some inherited rights. The Government is working out how to reconcile customary rights with all New Zealanders’ ability to access the foreshore and seabed—end of story. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. When I raised the previous point of order you said I was raising extraneous matters. That was as direct a question as one could get anywhere. I asked him who he believed owned the title and I do not have an answer. I want you to have the same specificity affecting answers as you demand in questions. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: The member has had a number of answers as have other members that have clearly been towards the point. The Government is involved in a process around reconciling Maori customary rights with the traditional rights of all New Zealanders of access to the foreshore and the seabed. There is a process under way. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I take on board the comments you made right at the start of today’s question time. However I think Mr Peters does raise an interesting point when he says he was asking the Minister a specific question. You are not as you have said expected to judge that answer but when it comes to replies the Standing Orders are pretty clear that arguments inferences imputations etc. are not acceptable from a Minister. Given the specific nature of the question to Parekura Horomia today asking his personal view—accepting that as a Minister of the Crown he has told us already that he is entitled to have those views outside his collective Cabinet responsibility—surely any answer he gives about a process being in place is simply an argument and part of the political argument that we are trying to further in this question time. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister is able to be questioned in only his ministerial capacity not his personal capacity. He was entitled to give a Government view and he did. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is it the case that the Minister does not know who owns the foreshore and seabed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I understand taonga tuku iho left behind by my tupuna. It has been my understanding that Maori have customary rights. I need a bit of a hand with this. I will ask that member who he believes owns it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That last sentence was out of order but the rest of it was in order. 
Rodney Hide 
: We have a question directed to a right honourable member who is a former Minister of Maori Affairs. I seek leave of the House that that question be put and answered. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In his answer to Mr Peters Mr Horomia referred to his understanding and then he used a number of Maori words. Can we have a translation? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister like to translate the words? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Mr Speaker—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have asked the Minister to translate as the member has requested. He can give his own translation. He is perfectly entitled to. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It is not too different from the Catholic inheritance of culture passed on by generations over several centuries that there is tuku iho left to us by our tupuna which is related in our waiata and songs and the markings that are still there. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Can he tell this House in simple terms when push comes to shove on this issue will he be lining up with the collective responsibility of Cabinet or will he be backing the Maori caucus? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It is a role that Ministers of Maori Affairs understand at times. I am here to defend and support what Maori people want done and at the same time I have a collective responsibility as a member of Cabinet as a whole lot of current Opposition members had over 9 years. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table the vote on the Te Ture Whenua Bill of 1993 which demonstrates that I did not support the legislation. The rest of the House did. That is the first one. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table. Is there any objection? There is. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I also seek leave to table the Marlborough Sounds decision by Judge Hingston which points out that the issue was one of access something that an ignorant person yesterday tried to deny was a fact. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The question is that that document be tabled. Is there any objection? There is. 
Rodney Hide 
: I seek leave to table the document on customary rights signed by the Hon Parekura Horomia and released last night. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.