Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:623;Page:18750] 
6.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Did he or the then Associate Minister raise concerns in relation to Te Wananga o Aotearoa regarding financial accountability and whether the taxpayer was getting value for money with Cabinet in writing; if so on what date? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 We raised accountability issues generally about the wananga in October 2001 in relation to the settlement. It was of course the wananga that was the main driver of the managing growth policy in April 2003. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: What is the Minister’s view of the wananga’s Greenlight programme in literacy and numeracy which was developed by Cubans and sold to the wananga by Marcia Krawll the American fiancée of the wananga’s chief executive Dr Rongo Wetere for an extraordinary seven-figure sum? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: It is my understanding that the Greenlight project has not been properly academically assessed in the New Zealand context and I am therefore not prepared to give an opinion as to its value. 
H V Ross Robertson 
: Can the Minister tell the House what undertakings by Te Wananga o Aotearoa have resulted from the range of measures undertaken by Ministers and Government agencies that he outlined to the House yesterday? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I am aware of the blood pressure of the Leader of the House and therefore I will not go through a long list. But I will say that there was an action plan. It set out some improvements and at least some of them happened. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister agree that after the New Zealand Qualifications Authority’s bungling of the 2004 National Certificate of Educational Achievement scholarship its competence to have concluded the July 2004 audit of Te Wananga o Aotearoa—which said that all was well with the institution—must now be questionable; and will he establish a fully independent audit team so that taxpayers can be assured they are not simply the funders of a rip-off? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: There are a number of points in that question. But if we go back this issue really shows that one has to be very careful about letting Tories manage anything. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister please give an answer that will not lead to points of order. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: There are clear management issues at the wananga and we will get on top of them. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister clearly does not want to answer the question he was asked. He gave a clever answer for a start which you picked him up on. His second answer completely ignored the question which went to the issue of whether he believes that the competence of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to properly audit this institution can be believed and accepted by the public. It is a pretty straightforward question. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The final answer on this institution will not lie with the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. 
Judy Turner 
: Does the Minister have any concerns about the value for money that taxpayers get from Government spending on Te Wananga o Aotearoa in light of the fact that it receives $239 million to cater for 30000 students and the Hutt Valley District Health Board has a budget of $258 million—only $19 million more—to cater for the health needs of a population of 135000 and where does he think the money is better spent? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Members do not need the second leg of the double for me to indicate my concern with value for money there. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In view of the Minister’s response that the programme has not yet been assessed can he tell the House why the Government has already paid out $4.5 million to the Greenlight programme based on 1521 students who are deemed to have completed this Greenlight course when in fact many students being credited with New Zealand Qualifications Authority unit standards for the course have advised the Tertiary Education Commission that they did not complete the units or that they had not been assessed for the units and furthermore that two of the four modules are not even written yet? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: It is my understanding that payments have not been made for the modules that have not been written. Obviously it is a modular course. It is done bit by bit and we do not pay out in advance for that. 
Bernie Ogilvy 
: Do the Minister’s concerns with the wananga extend beyond its financial accountability to the quality of the education that it offers; if so what other specific concerns can he express to the House? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think it is fair to say that I do have some concerns about the quality and qualifications of some of the people teaching at the wananga. I should say that some of the people do have some very good qualifications. It is interesting that a lot of young people and older people have gone through the institution and got jobs. Having said that as I indicated on the radio the organisation will not get special treatment as far as accountability and ethics are concerned because it is a wananga. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Will the Minister explain the Government’s liability for the $15.5 million taxpayer payment to the wananga that is based on the 5455 students who are now enrolled in the Greenlight programme when the wananga has engaged in a vigorous enrolment campaign to get bums on seats to rort the taxpayer with tertiary graduates wananga staff and even tutors enrolled in their own course? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: It is actually not that unusual for university staff to be enrolled in university courses. I would hope that the people enrolled in literacy courses though are not tutors. It might well be that there are cleaning staff or administrative staff for whom literacy courses are appropriate. We have seen in this House on occasion including from the member who just interjected real literacy problems. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will stand and withdraw that comment. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I withdraw. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Could the Minister indicate to the House at what point his concerns will actually turn into action given the fact that on his watch over half a billion dollars of taxpayers’ money has now been given to the wananga; and will he not consider the position of the real losers from this scam who are as I understand it the more than 40000 Maori and Pacific Island students who enrolled at this institution believing falsely that it was a university and who have received almost valueless courses but now owe over a hundred million dollars in student loans? Is he not concerned about those students? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I am very concerned about anyone who enrolled at this organisation thinking it was a university. There is no doubt that the advertising of the wananga in that matter is misleading. I should point out of course to the House that currently fewer than half of the students there according to my advice are in fact Maori. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I seek leave to table three documents. The first one is an email from the Crown’s representative on the wananga council to the chairman of that council. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: The second is a letter dated 2 February 2005 from the Tertiary Education Commission to Dr Rongo Wetere. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: The third is a correspondence confirming that previously qualified students wananga staff and tutors are indeed enrolled in the course that the Government is funding. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.