English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:629;Page:1576] 
8.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Does he agree with the Prime Minister’s statement about the alleged 1997 incident in which as a teacher the Hon David Benson-Pope walked into the dormitory and bathroom of 14-year-old girls changing: “that he behaved in accordance with school policy at the time”; if so what was that policy? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 I agree with the Prime Minister’s statement. I am also aware that Mr Benson-Pope has stated that his behaviour complied with school policy at the time which I understand was for a staff member— 
Hon Member 
: That makes it all right then doesn’t it. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
:—does the member want to be quiet so he can hear it—for a staff member gender not identified to give a wake-up or hurry-up call to students. 
Hon Bill English 
: What standard of behaviour does the Minister of Education believe is appropriate for male teachers who are responsible for young teenage girls many thousands of whom are on school camps right now? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Standards that comply with policies set down by their schools. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Can the Minister confirm that the claims and innuendo made several times now by Mr English and Dr Brash have in fact been contradicted by the statements made by the principal who made it absolutely clear that: “There is no question about anyone entering the showers” there was no question about any compromise of privacy and the hurry-up call was made from the door; and further that those statements were in fact supported by the girls who were quoted in the  
Herald on Sunday 
 last Sunday? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I am aware that the account given by the principal differs from the account given by people such as Mr Bill English. It is my understanding of course that Opposition members have embarked upon using sources such as that from  
Investigate 
 as their sources of information. I do not think anyone in his or her right mind should use that journal as a source of information. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Minister of Education seen any photo fact—even if it is only one fact—or piece of acceptable evidence from Messrs English Brash and Hide or from Ms Collins in respect of these allegations; and what will this do for male recruitment into important professions such as the teaching profession and for the retention of males who are in those professions now if someone can be scandalised in this House without one fact being produced to back it up? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I confirm that I have not seen any evidence from Mr English from Ms Collins or from Mr Hide. I imagine that all members in the House would like to see evidence where it exists because they too could have claims made against them at any time and they also would want to see evidence. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister believe that a school should hire a teacher surrounded by the following allegations: stuffed a tennis ball in the mouth of a student; hit a student in the face—accepted as prima facie by the police; slapped a teenage girl on the thigh; kneed a male student in the groin; entered a girls’ changing room while girls were showering; burst in unannounced on girls getting changed after a mud run; accused of bullying other teachers; and made pupils stand outside in the cold in their nighties as verified by the police; should any school hire a teacher surrounded by that swirl of allegations? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I would hope that any school hiring a teacher would ensure that it found out the truth about any allegation surrounding a person and would not rely on the words of Bill English who routinely misleads on issues relating to the education sector as he is doing today. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that last week the Government defended Mr Benson-Pope by agreeing with his statement that the allegations were nonsense that yesterday it defended him by agreeing with his statement that he acted within school policy and that today it has changed its position again and defended him on the basis of its statement that the principal did not regard the behaviour as serious enough to warrant formal disciplinary proceedings; and will the Government change its mind again tomorrow? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The first point raised by Mr English was the one relating to the  
Investigate 
 magazine where Mr Benson-Pope referred to it as nonsense. I regard anything in the  
Investigate 
 magazine as nonsense by definition. The school policy at the time as Mr Benson-Pope has pointed out was for people to give a wake-up or a hurry-up call. That was the policy and that is what he acted within as I understand it. And thirdly do we rely on the principal’s statements? Well he gives a range of statements and we have used those—just as he has—to provide evidence. 
Hon Bill English 
: When will he show some leadership as Minister of Education and stop hiding behind sly half-truths and acknowledge that the behaviour that has been described is not the behaviour of a decent male let alone a professional teacher? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I would regard the behaviour of a decent male to be that of getting up in this House and providing real evidence for the assertions he makes. If Mr English has the courage of his convictions he might like to try to provide a bit of evidence for a change and be a real man. 
Rodney Hide 
. In response to the Minister’s answer I seek the leave of the House to table the police report that shows a prima facie case against the Minister for hitting a pupil on the nose— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? 
Rodney Hide 
: —and for sticking a tennis ball— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have understood as has the House the nature of the member’s comments. In raising this matter the member needs only to identify clearly what the document is; it is not to give a speech. The document is the police report. Is there any objection to that report being tabled? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I invite Rodney Hide to try to seek leave again but if he gets up again and describes something as being a prima facie case then how will the rest of us understand what on earth he is seeking to table? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: My understanding is that what is being tabled is the police report. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No he said it had something to do with the police and that it was a prima facie report. With the greatest respect I am not aware of that sort of document. Perhaps he could describe it to me. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I think the rest of the House understood that it was the police report. I shall put it. Is there any objection to the police report being tabled? There is no objection. 
Document not tabled. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that it is now the Government’s position that there is no evidence for any of the allegations that have been made against David Benson-Pope that the police report has no merit that none of the allegations involved serious behaviour and therefore there is no case to answer whatsoever? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The police report is the police report. We have all read it we all understand what is there and of course nothing was proceeded with from that. From the point of view of the Government of course we have heard a number of allegations but we have not heard evidence that supports those. The member can provide that evidence if he would like to but so far he has not been man enough to do so. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: We are trying to eliminate those little innuendos and side bars. “Real man” has been mentioned several times in the House in different contexts. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: 
 Madam Speaker I would take your own ruling and say that if the member wants to serve it he will have to take it. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is the difficulty we have I must say; we do have responses across the House. So I think we should all note that for the future. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: In light of one of the previous questions and answers would the Minister regard it as appropriate for a school to hire as a teacher somebody who was convicted of pushing an elderly man down the stairs or somebody else who was told point blank by a judge that he did not believe a word of what he had said as happened to Dr Nick Smith? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I said before I would hope that all schools would have policies that would allow them to understand the character of the people they were hiring. If they were given evidence of someone who was convicted for pushing someone down the stairs I would hope they would not hire that person. If they were given evidence of someone who misled the court likewise I would hope that they would not hire that person. 
Hon David Benson-Pope 
: During my question earlier I intimated my intention to ask for leave to table a document I had received and I now do so. I request leave to table a letter from a parent who attended a 1997 camp at Tautuku in the Catlins discussing the accusations that have been made. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. This is in line with a point of order I raised before. I seek the House’s leave for time to be set aside so that Messrs Brash English and Hide and Ms Collins can now table some evidence for the first time. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is out of order. The member cannot seek that for somebody else.