Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 15 November 2012. Volume:685;Page:6712. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
9. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: Does he agree with the Pure Advantage report released today that “green growth represents a huge opportunity for all Kiwis to prosper”; if so what will he do to put New Zealand on a green growth pathway? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 As the Prime Minister said yesterday there are a number of aspects of the latest Pure Advantage report that the Government is interested in looking at because it may agree with them. The report underscores the importance of a significant number of existing Government initiatives already under way—for example the focus on energy efficiency water reform and investment in research and development. These are all elements of the Government’s Business Growth Agenda. But I might also point out to the member that many New Zealand businesses are already on a green growth pathway because they invest large amounts of capital and considerable expertise week by week in changing their business in a way to make it more efficient or to deal with the environmental impact of their business. We do not discredit them. We give them credit for that. This issue is owned not just by people sitting around in groups coming up with strategies. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he agree with the first line of the Pure Advantage report that “Earth’s resources are finite.”; if so what does he think this means for economic policy? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well what it means for economic policy is that we need to acknowledge scarcity and that is why we have things like prices and that is why the Greens advocated the emissions trading system as they did which was a system with the logic that dealt with scarcity by setting prices. I am not quite sure why the member then went on to advocate printing money which is exactly the opposite. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he agree therefore that the challenge of achieving prosperity within these global resource limits or the scarcity that he refers to is what is leading to a boom in green industries such as renewable energy and that this in turn creates the opportunity to grow a lot of jobs in New Zealand and we should embrace that? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The fact is New Zealanders do embrace any viable green industry. The Greens carry on as if this is something that they thought of but actually every day thousands of New Zealanders are acting as environmental managers making decisions that trade off the prospect of income growth or reduced costs against environmental impacts. I would put in that category farmers people who drive trucks who worry about their stock effluent local councils making rules about putting underpasses under roads and businesses that are trying to reduce their energy bill. This concept is not owned by the Greens or the Pure Advantage group. It is inherent in the New Zealand character and the Greens should show more respect for that. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he agree that this is not a question about the Greens or Pure Advantage; rather it is a question about Government leadership? And does he agree with Pure Advantage when it says that there is an absence of a cohesive long-term green growth policy from his central government? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: No and a couple of examples I would point to include the fact that New Zealand’s proportion of renewable energy is now higher than ever because we made the electricity market more competitive and stopped semi-subsidised programmes that were going ahead. The second is the example I used earlier and that is water reform which is probably the single most important environmental reform of the decade. Alongside that I would actually put the regulation of the exclusive economic zone which the Labour Government had a decade to do did nothing and in fact opposed it. It has been the responsibility of this Government to express what every New Zealander would like to see expressed and that is their sense of stewardship for the oceans. In fact I would say this Government has a much better record on this than either the Greens or Labour ever had. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he agree with Pure Advantage which has identified our natural biodiversity as one of the main competitive advantages of our $20 billion jobs-rich tourism industry and why therefore is the Government cutting funding to the Department of Conservation which is the prime protector of that biodiversity? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Funding is not being cut to the Department of Conservation. It is getting pretty much the same revenue as it has had and it is being treated in exactly the same way as most other public services. But again I point out to the member that although the Department of Conservation has a role in biodiversity protection a whole lot of other New Zealanders do too. In fact the Department of Conservation is getting ahead of that member’s perception because it has understood that in order to protect the most biodiversity possible it needs to work with those thousands of New Zealanders who have the same values and want to participate want to protect biodiversity and have plenty of skills to do so. It like the Greens does not have a monopoly and a sort of moralistic superiority about green stuff. Every New Zealander is interested in it and more of them would like you to show respect for it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! If the Minister could just be a little careful. The Speaker should not be brought into the answer like that. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he accept that this is not an issue about anyone not having respect for what ordinary New Zealanders are doing and that the issue is about Government leadership and the problem with the Government leadership is that it has been promoting mining extraction and motorways and those kinds of priorities for the Government are completely at odds with the green growth agenda? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I think the Government under the leadership of the Prime Minister has shown a fine sense of balance in its leadership. Yes we have advocated responsible mining. We are advocating roads of national significance. Alongside that we are bringing in wide-ranging reform of the way we use water in New Zealand. We are regulating our exclusive economic zone and we have any number of other environmental initiatives including the home insulation scheme to which we committed $300 million. Compare that with the record of the Labour-Green Government that preceded us and its record is pathetic. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he accept the findings of the Pure Advantage report that New Zealand’s environmental performance is declining and that we slipped from first to 14th place in the recent Yale Environmental Performance Index; if so why does his Government keep promoting policies that are not only leading to record high unemployment but also degrading the environment? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: As I said before the Government has a very balanced approach to these issues. It is actually the Greens and Labour who promote policies that destroy jobs. We promote policies that create them. But alongside that we are promoting policies that underpin the sustainability of those jobs. For instance the water reforms that we are talking about will underpin the sustainability of our whole primary production sector and therefore the sustainability of the jobs in that sector. In that sense the Government is taking a balanced approach and actually many New Zealanders support that. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Given his previous commitment to the use of pricing around scarcity why has the Government changed the emissions trading scheme to effectively completely undercut a price on carbon and hence remove that price signal through the economy; and secondly will he commit to putting a price on the use of water so that we are able to use price signals to drive efficiency in the commercial use of water in irrigation? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The biggest influence on the price for carbon units has been a recession which has led to a significant reduction in the growth rates of carbon emissions. The Greens should regard that as success not failure. I know that the Greens would like us all to suffer for environmental advancement but sometimes it is reasonably easy and in that case it is. In respect of a price on water we are interested in that discussion. I think the whole policy establishment has learnt a lot from the Greens’ advocacy of the emissions trading system. The Land and Water Forum has shown some interest in the issue but not come to conclusions. I would expect that over the next 6 to 9 months we will have the support of the Green Party in advancing water reform which may include developments in the pricing area. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: Does he agree with Pure Advantage that there is a huge economic opportunity to invest more in passenger transport walking and cycling; if so why is his Government spending 85 percent of the budget available for new capital projects on a few State highway projects and less than 5 percent on making it easier and safer for people to walk cycle and take better buses and trains? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well I suppose the main reason is because on our planet there are people and most of those people travel—in fact over 85 percent of passenger trips—in cars. They need roads so we are going to make sure that the road network is more efficient. The Government has actually invested a large amount in cycling in public transport— 
Hon Nathan Guy 
: KiwiRail. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: —and in fact as the member has pointed out $750 million into KiwiRail for all the reasons that the Greens would advocate. So again I think our record is coherent and balanced— 
Hon Nathan Guy 
: Sensible. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: —and sensible. If the member has got some good ideas rather than some fluffy ones— 
Hon Nathan Guy 
: Mad ones. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: —and mad ones then we would welcome hearing from her. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: Does not the fact that State highway traffic volumes have not grown for the better part of the last decade while passenger transport volumes have been increasing at nearly 10 percent a year indicate that New Zealanders do want smart green transport options and is it not time to revisit this Government’s decision to prioritise billions on a few very low-value State highway projects such as the Kapiti Expressway the costs of which are five times greater than its economic benefits? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I think if you actually look at what has happened with investment the Government has continued with the large-scale public transport investments that the previous Government initiated and that is very evident in the Auckland public transport network. But not everyone goes on public transport. If New Zealanders want green transport options they will get on the trains and the buses. More of them are doing so and the investment will tend to follow that. But actually 90 percent of them do not get on a bus or a train; they get in the car. We are not willing to ignore those people. We think that as citizens they have a right to the public investment as well. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I seek leave to table the latest Pure Advantage report  
A race has begun. And we are in it 
. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: I seek leave to table this internal report on the MacKays to Peka Peka Expressway which shows that the benefits— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The source of the report? The member said—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! The member said that it is an internal report. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: It is an internal report to the New Zealand Transport Agency showing the benefits— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? 
Hon Member 
: Who wrote it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I gather the Transport Agency wrote it. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: It is a report to the Transport Agency by some consultants who were working for the Transport Agency. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: By whom? 
Julie Anne Genter 
: The Beca Group. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is a report by the Beca Group to the Transport Agency. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Julie Anne Genter 
: I seek leave to table the State highway traffic volumes from the New Zealand Transport Agency that show that the volumes have not grown in over a decade on the route of the Kapiti Expressway. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.