Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:613;Page:10228] 
5.  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: What is the expected cost for the construction and completion of the proposed Spring Hill prison at Meremere? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
Costs are currently being examined by the Government with Treasury Department of Corrections and Ministry of Justice involvement. Final project approval will be sought once that work has been completed. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not require shouting. The member has taken a point of order. He is entitled to be heard in silence. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I put to you that the Minister has not answered the question. I have had two written questions very similar to the one I have asked where he provided numbers. The Minister is seeking not to address the question. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Speaking to the point of order I point out that there are no final costs sorted out. Currently there is—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have had enough. That member who interjected has had his final warning. During a point of order there is to be no interjection. The Minister is speaking to a point of order. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Currently work is going on to work out the final options and detailed costings. The approval will then be sought once the work is under way. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister is entitled to answer in that way. If no final statement is made that is his answer. I am not judging the quality of the answer. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That may be the Minister’s answer but he was not asked what the final costs were. No project of that type would ever be contemplated by any ministry without a projected cost and he was asked for that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister was asked what the expected cost is. He said there is no answer yet. He is entitled to answer in that way. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have ruled that the Minister said there is no expected cost. In April the Minister said the expected cost was $232 million even though the original budgeted figure was $188 million. He must know the latest expected cost. He has been advised of it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If a member asserts that a Minister’s answers are contradictory then that is a matter for debate not a matter for me to adjudicate on. I am not responsible for the answer concerned. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You are not responsible for the answer concerned but when the Minister has given an answer in writing to a question with the latest costs—dated in April—and is then asked for the latest cost he could either give the April cost if it has not changed or give a new cost if he knows it. But to trifle with question time as the Minister is doing—[ 
Interruption 
] He is the second Minister to do that today. Tariana Turia did not answer a question and then read the second part of the answer to question No. 1. She had the answer in front of her but chose not to give it. We know that this Minister answered in writing—with the answer as at April—and now he refuses to give that answer to the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: In answer to the first part I pulled up the Minister Tariana Turia and made her answer the question. The member was absolutely correct about that matter but that has nothing to do with this point of order. The Minister was asked a question he has given an answer and he can stand by that particular answer. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Just before this point of order you gave my colleague Nick Smith a final warning about interjecting during a point of order. During that point of order while my colleague Roger Sowry was on his feet a number of Labour members interjected. Are you now saying that they will not be admonished for their interjections in the same way that my National colleagues have been? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I did not mention any member by name. Did I? If I did then I apologise. I apologise for the fact that I made a mistake there. I say to members that I will be listening very carefully for any comments made during points of order and the next person to make such a comment will most certainly go from the Chamber no matter who it is. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek your assistance because this is becoming habitual and I suggest that it is unfair on the Opposition. Some time ago we had an occasion when Mr Edwin Perry did not interject but said the words “hear hear” in support of a point of order being made by his leader. Your decision—according to the warnings you had already given—was to throw Mr Perry out of the Chamber. Not long thereafter when I was making a point of order Government members interjected in unison and none of them were thrown out because it would have placed upon you the requirement to throw more than one of them—probably 15—out at one time. They received a warning. Government members interjected in unison again today and once again escaped discipline. If that tactic is to be accepted from the Government side of the House then I think it is entirely unfair. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is. I will now be tightening up considerably as far as interjections are concerned. I think the member has made a valid point. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Question No. 5 asked for an expected cost for the construction and completion of the proposed Spring Hill prison at Meremere. When will we get an answer to that question knowing that it is now November and that there was an April figure? If the figure is the same or different then we should know that. We have had no answer at all. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is up to the Minister to give that. If he said that he does not have a final figure then we have to accept his word on that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We are not asking for any final figure—that will not be known until construction is totally complete. We are asking what anyone in Treasury or the Minister of Finance would ask of any Minister putting up such a proposal which is what he or she thinks the likely cost will be. It is a simple question Mr Speaker. Why do you not make him answer it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Certainly I stand by my earlier ruling. The question asked what the expected cost is. The Minister said that he does not have the figure. That was his answer. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Since the Minister now appears to be covering up what is being reported as a major blowout in the budget of the Spring Hill prison will he drop the Labour Government’s ideological opposition to private prisons given that the company that runs the Auckland private prison says that it could build the prison at Meremere for $100 million less than this Government is proposing? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: In answer to the first part of the question there is no cover-up. What is happening is that we are doing further work on the figures as one would expect. As far as the second point is concerned the answer is no. If the figures that the member is quoting are as rubbery as the figures given by the private remand prison now I imagine they would be way off the mark. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister has said in his previous answers that he has no figures but in that answer he said they were doing the figures. That must mean the Minister has some figures available so why does he not present them to the House? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not take that at all from what the Minister said. I thought the Minister addressed the question. 
Martin Gallagher 
: In terms of the specific needs of the region why is the Spring Hill Corrections Facility required? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Currently there are 600 inmates from the region who are serving their sentences as far away as Invercargill. In order to reduce reoffending it is important to bring inmates back to their local communities as family support is a key part of successful rehabilitation. In addition the Government is putting more people in prison for longer as part of our get-tough-on-crime campaign. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Will the Government not drop its ideological view against private prisons in light of figures that I will table in the House after this question which demonstrate that the private prison in Auckland has advised that it could run the Meremere prison for $12 million a year less than the Government is proposing and what does the Minister think we could spend that $12 million on when there is a desperate need for operations police and teachers? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am warning the member. He got his one chance today and he knows he made a mistake. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The Government is opposed to private prisons. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I seek leave to table correspondence that shows that the private prison company can build the Meremere prison for at least $100 million less than the Government proposes. 
Document not tabled. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I seek leave to table a letter to the chair of the Law and Order Committee explaining the differences in figures that have been mentioned by the private prison for remand prisoners versus those in public prisons. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.