1. Question No. 1—Prime MinisterHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime MinisterWEDNESDAY 29 JULY 2020The Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.Prayers.ORAL QUESTIONSQUESTIONS TO MINISTERSQuestion No. 1—Prime MinisterHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition): Does she support a policy which would allow New Zealanders to $20000 from their KiwiSaver to start a new business?SPEAKER: I'm going to ask the member to ask the question as per the Order Paper.1. Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does she support a policy which would allow New Zealanders to access up to $20000 from their KiwiSaver to start a new business?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): This Government supports increasing support for our small businesses and that is why we have made consultancy services available to small businesses to the tune of $5000. It's why we have increased the small asset depreciation threshold from $500 to $5000. It's why we've introduced a small business cash-flow loan scheme which has paid out nearly $1.5 billion. It's why we increased the provisional tax threshold encouraged prompt invoice payment supported business through the wage subsidy scheme and of course have introduced e-commerce initiatives. I do have concerns however around the proposal that the member has mentioned which will undermine New Zealanders' retirement savings and I also have to say I have concerns that the policy the member has put forward is as yet uncosted.SPEAKER: Before I call the member I wish to apologise to her. I unfortunately had a sheet with a slightly different question on it.Hon Judith Collins: Thank you Mr Speaker. Is there anything wrong with a builder who has lost his job because of COVID-19 being able to use up to $20000 of his own KiwiSaver to put towards a van and some new tools so he can start his own building business?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: My advice would be to anyone who finds themselves currently unemployed and wishes to start their own business don't for a moment think that you need to gamble with your retirement savings when instead through the Ministry of Social Development (MSD)—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Including Mr Tabuteau.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —someone can access the Flexi-wage subsidy to start their own business and to support themselves as a self-employed person. They can also access through MSD a business start-up fund that can give them up to $10000 to start up their own business. When unfortunately roughly two-thirds of small businesses that start up in a two-year period will be unsuccessful I do not want to see those people currently unemployed who may wish to start their own business risk their KiwiSaver when they don't have to.Hon Judith Collins: Is she saying she would rather have someone on the jobseeker benefit than let them use their own money to start their own business?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No I'm saying that KiwiSaver is for people's retirement. We should not be depleting that important resource for them. As some KiwiSaver providers themselves have pointed out actually what the member is proposing from someone at the age of say 40 through to their retirement actually represents more than a $60000 loss. What I am saying is there are already forms of Government support that help people with start-ups—the cost of starting up the cost of paying themselves and surviving while they start up and the cost of advisory services. The member obviously hasn't looked at some of those packages that already exist.Hon Judith Collins: Why is it OK for someone to access their KiwiSaver to buy a new house but not to start a new business?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: There are three reasons at the moment that someone can access KiwiSaver outside of their retirement: firstly sadly if they have a terminal illness; if they have hardship needs that are identified as being genuine hardship; and if they are purchasing a house. I think on both sides of the House we agree that a house is an asset that carries far less risk than a start-up which—based on normal circumstances two-thirds of our business start-ups in New Zealand in a two-year period will not succeed. In this current environment it's likely to be even more difficult. Again I conclude by saying there are alternatives already there which don't have to draw on someone's retirement savings. I know that member's party has a tradition of tinkering with KiwiSaver. We do not agree with that.Hon Grant Robertson: Does the Prime Minister agree with the proposition that KiwiSaver is money put aside for a rainy day" or does she believe that it is money for security in retirement?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: KiwiSaver is not for the purposes of being able to draw down at any time. We must support New Zealanders to have a good standard of living in their retirement. That means supporting them to hang on to their KiwiSaver for their retirement and we see it as our role to provide other ways through other mechanisms like the Flexi-wage like business start-up support and that already exists.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Could I ask the Prime Minister: in the construction of the Government's policy on KiwiSaver has she received any reports from any conservative party anywhere in the world arguing against the wisdom of savings?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: There is certainly a consistency around the need for consumers to save for their retirement. The last thing we want to see is a repeat of what we saw under the last National Government which was constant changes and uncertainty to KiwiSaver settings.Hon Judith Collins: Does the Prime Minister consider that losing one's job or being made redundant is hardship?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes which is why we have the income support payment which is why we have provided $5000 worth of advisory services through the business partnership network which is why MSD has the Flexi-wage scheme which is why we have the $10000 in support of people who wish to create a start-up. Yes unemployment is hardship but we do not want to create double hardship by having someone potentially lose their KiwiSaver.Hon Judith Collins: Why does the Prime Minister have so little faith in entrepreneurial and hard-working New Zealanders who have experience in many cases of running businesses—that they can't actually—SPEAKER: Order! The member is making a series of assertions. She will ask a question.Hon Judith Collins: Does the Prime Minister have any confidence in entrepreneurial New Zealanders who have experience in running businesses who can verify that they understand how to run one?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Absolutely which is why we have a scheme already in place to back those businesses through the Ministry of Social Development. I'd like to think that that is an endorsement of the fact that that entrepreneurialism exists in New Zealand and is supported by us. Other examples of course include the fact that we have established a venture capital fund to support those start-ups as well."