McCully Murray: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
McCully Murray: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:610;Page:7512] 
6.  
Hon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National—East Coast Bays) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: Will she support a State Services Commission inquiry or a commission of inquiry into allegations that officials of the New Zealand Immigration Service agreed to “lie in unison” and that they withheld documents being sought by the Ombudsman under the Official Information Act 1982 in relation to the Zaoui case; if not why not? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 I do not consider it is necessary to determine whether there should be any form of inquiry before the Secretary of Labour has reported on the results of his investigations. I note that the State Services Commissioner has been kept fully informed and the Secretary of Labour has said publicly that his findings will be made public. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Given that these events involve the Minister and that they commenced in her own office what confidence can the public have in an in-house inquiry conducted by someone who reports to her and to her Cabinet colleagues and who depends upon her and her Cabinet colleagues both for his bonus and for reappointment to his job? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: As the State Services Commissioner said in a letter to the Hon Murray McCully yesterday there is no risk or perception of conflict of interest for him personally as these events pre-date his appointment as chief executive. I am not ruling out any further inquiries beyond these investigations but I would like the investigations to be completed and for that report to be publicly released. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Is the Minister seriously asking the House to believe that she expects the Secretary of Labour to independently and authoritatively investigate an affair to which she herself says she is a party if there has been some wrongdoing and to report that independently and authoritatively to Cabinet? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Yes I have full confidence in the Secretary of Labour to conduct an investigation to make a report and to release it publicly. I do not believe that people should pre-judge the outcome of that investigation. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Does the Minister understand that if she is going to insist that this should be the only investigation to take place at this stage into a matter that she has told the House today she is a party to—and must therefore be a party to any wrongdoing that has been done—it is going to be seen by the public to be nothing more than a cover-up unless she allows a party that is independent and authoritative to carry it out? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Only one person is asserting that it would be a cover-up. A brand-new Secretary of Labour has offered to expand the investigation beyond the matters that I asked the general manager of the Immigration Service to look at. Some serious issues have been raised and I want to see answers to them. There are questions about whether information the Ombudsman requested was released. It is clear that that member had the information before an application was made to the Ombudsman for the review of a decision and how he came upon that information might be of use to the investigation. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Minister not understand that the Immigration Service is part of the Department of Labour the chief executive of which is now to conduct an in-house inquiry; that the suggested lying and deceit was widespread from Mr Ian Smith’s comments; and why will she not therefore give us an inquiry with terms of reference that the public can have confidence in not a whitewash in-house job that she has put up? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I just want to refer the House to the media release that came out from the chief executive of the Department of Labour yesterday. He stated very clearly he was concerned that the allegations as reported if left unchallenged could undermine confidence in the integrity of his department and the wider public service. He wants to ensure that the matter is dealt with openly and promptly to remove any public doubt about what happened and deal with any outstanding issues. The matter will be made public the results of the investigation will be made public and I have not ruled out any additional inquiries after that report has been released. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Does the Minister understand that an allegation that there has been an agreement to “lie in unison” is at the absolute outer end of the range of serious misconduct for public servants; and since she has told the House today that if there has been such misconduct she must have been a party to it does she not accept that any inquiry that will have credibility with the public must take place on the part of someone who does not report to her directly or to her Cabinet colleagues? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I do not want to predetermine the outcome of an investigation nor do I want us to have a situation where I am in fact predetermining whether there will be an inquiry following the results of the investigation. There may well have to be an inquiry as a result of the matters of the investigation. I have an open mind but I do not want that member to get away with trying to reinterpret what I said in the House today to make it sound as if I have been party to something that I have not been party to. The point I have made absolutely clear to this House—which I will make more than once and will make anywhere in this country and stand by it—is the point made in the commentary in the media log that said others had broken this so-called agreement. I was the only person who spoke on the matter from any Government agency. I was not a party to any agreement; there was no agreement to lie. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table important legislation that states that it is an offence to wilfully make any false statement or to mislead or attempt to mislead an ombudsman or any other person in the exercise of his or her powers under that Act namely the Ombudsmen Act. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.