Flavell Te Ururoa: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Flavell Te Ururoa: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:638;Page:8695] 
3.  
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
 to the  
Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations 
: He aha anatohutohu mena kei a ia etahi ki te Minitamonga Take Taiao mo te papatanga o ngakorero a te kaiwhiriwhirimo Tainui a Tukoroirangi Morgan ara tanaikira “ko te rangatiratanga ki te wai te mea e aukati neiitetahiwhakataungakerememo te awa” i te mea ko te kaupapa here a te Kawanatanga e meaana ko ia ke te rangatira o te wai? 
[ 
What advice if any will he be giving to the Minister for the Environment about the impact of the comments from Tainui negotiator Tukoroirangi Morgan that “water ownership was the stumbling block to a settlement of the river claim” given the Government’s policy on water ownership? 
] 
Hon MARK BURTON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) 
: 
 I will not be giving any advice to the Minister for the Environment as he is already well aware that the Crown is negotiating to settle Waikato-Tainui’s historical river claims in a way that recognises their special relationship with the river and is consistent with New Zealand law which does not provide for ownership of water in rivers and lakes. My negotiations with Waikato-Tainui negotiators including Tukoroirangi Morgan take place face to face and fortunately do not need to rely on the vagaries of second-hand reports. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: In negotiations with Tainui is water above the Waikato River bed a part of the settlement? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: As I indicated in my primary answer my negotiations with Tainui negotiators take place face to face not on the floor of the House and certainly not through the print media. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I thought that the question was quite specific in respect of asking whether the issue of water was part of the negotiations. I do not believe that I got the answer required in that response. Could the Minister clarify please? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: As the member knows members do not always get the answers they require. Ministers have to address the question and in that instance the Minister did. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: Madam Speaker I am happy to add to my answer if it will help the member. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: By all means. 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: The Crown is negotiating to settle Waikato-Tainui’s historical river claims in a way that recognises Waikato-Tainui’s strong spiritual cultural and physical interests in the river but is at the same time consistent with New Zealand law which does not provide for ownership of water in rivers and lakes. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: In response then what would be the difference between the Te Arawa lake bed settlement which included the notion of a Crown stratum and the Waikato River settlement under those terms? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: I simply cannot make a comparison between a settlement that is concluded and a negotiation that is in progress. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Has the Minister received any reports on other comments in relation to Treaty settlements and the ownership of rivers? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: Yes I have. I have seen a report stating that the Treaty of Waitangi does not provide for settlements to involve rivers as only fisheries and forests were mentioned. This is rather strange. It is a statement attributed to Mr John Key—a statement that I find bizarre given that the NgaiTahu settlement included statutory acknowledgment over some 18 rivers. 
Tariana Turia 
: Tena koe Madam Speaker. How does the Minister reconcile his statement this week that New Zealand law does not provide for ownership of water in rivers and lakes with the advice from the 1999 Whanganui River report of the Waitangi Tribunal that stated: “While the popular view was that rivers are ‘public property’ there is no legal basis for that view”? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: I reconcile it on the basis of fact. It is the case that New Zealand law does not allow for the ownership of water in rivers and lakes. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: How does the Treaty settlement policy recognise the concept that Tainui refer to as te mana o te awa which the Associate Minister for the Environment Nanaia Mahuta also endorsed on  
Marae 
 last Saturday that the Waikato River is a whole and indivisible entity and that the water cannot be separated from the river the bed or the banks? 
Hon MARK BURTON 
: As the member will understand working through the different views and concepts is one of the most important and challenging parts of any Treaty negotiation.