van de Molen TimTIM VAN DE MOLEN (National—Waikato): Coming back to my point I was making before the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety can stand up and say flippantly You should read the bill"—words are one thing but actually it's the interpretation of that that it's become clear the Minister really doesn't have his head around. It's that sort of detail that just shows how uninformed this Minister is when it comes to putting this legislation forward.He referred to clause 87(1)(c)(i) around the safety and health aspects—"must comply with … existing reasonable procedures and requirements" in relation to the workplace. But how are they to know what those are if they are allowed to enter the workplace without having spoken to any employer or any representative of the employer which is allowed for under clause 87(3)—just you know they can turn up if they haven't made the effort and they can't find the employer a representative of the employer or a person in control of the workplace. So they can turn up without seeing anyone whatsoever having no understanding of what those safety and health requirements might be in that workplace and they can still enter. And this is where it's clear that the Minister doesn't understand the complexity of workplaces around New Zealand and the types of examples that could be found.Ms Stanford's one was a good example of that as well where you're taking a critical skill out of a critical role that in and of itself may not be the union rep breaching that health and safety requirement under clause 87(1)(c)(i) but could have an impact on the overall business operations and the same applies in any number of construction businesses. For example if you're perhaps taking a health and safety rep off the floor for discussions and some sort of incident happens during that time—these are the sorts of things that happen in workplaces that it's clear the Minister doesn't understand.And alongside that as well was the impact of the timing of those things that he really didn't address whatsoever. He said "Oh well it's totally fine. There's no issue around there being time-sensitive aspects because the representative of the employee bargaining party exercising the rights to enter a workplace must do so at reasonable times and must do so in a reasonable way." Well what is reasonable in those circumstances? There's no definition of that in this bill around what constitutes a reasonable time during a period when that employee is working or indeed a reasonable way having regard to normal business operations. Of course assuming that union rep understands what the normal business operations are—and it's clear that this Minister doesn't have a good understanding of normal business operations across a range of sectors. And of course that sort of complexity can vary significantly even within businesses in the same industry. So we really aren't getting to the nuanced sort of detail we need to properly cater for the requirements that can be found in a workplace.So I'm interested in why the Minister doesn't understand that or whether he has sought any advice on that whether he will consider amending that to accurately reflect the impact this will be having on those businesses or whether he simply doesn't care."