Turei Metiria: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Turei Metiria: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 28 February 2012. Volume:677;Page:568. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
2. 
METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does he stand by his statement in relation to the Government’s welfare reforms announced yesterday that “… there are plenty of jobs out there for people if they look really hard”; if so why? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes I stand by my full statement which was: “… it’s worth pointing out that in all of the changes we are making it is about people if they can being work ready. If they don’t get a job if there isn’t a job there for them then nothing changes in terms of their entitlements. But there are plenty of jobs out there for people if they look really hard. Now obviously not for every single person … but people do find work and the economy is constantly creating new jobs …”.  
Metiria Turei 
: Why is his Government intent on forcing single parents with little babies as young as 12 months old to abandon their children and compete with the 150000 New Zealanders who are already desperately looking for work? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Firstly I think it is worth pointing out what the Government’s proposed changes are when it comes to women on the domestic purposes benefit—that is full-time work-testing when the youngest child is 14 and part-time work-testing when the youngest child is 5. The only requirements for a mother to go back to work when the youngest child is 1 would be in the event that the child is born while the mother is already on the domestic purposes benefit of which last year there were over 4000. Why do we think it is better for them to go to work? Well if you look at the system that has been in place now through a number of Governments you see that that system supports high levels of income for people in work. Let us take somebody who works 20 hours a week and leaves the domestic purposes benefit. They get the minimum family tax credit which is $22204 a year and on top of that they get the in-work tax credit which is $3120 a year—all of which adds up to about $25300 a year for 20 hours. The domestic purposes benefit for that person would be $15000. That household will be considerably better off. This Government is also investing $130 million in support for those mothers whether it is in retraining or in childcare facilities.  
Metiria Turei 
: What kind of guarantee can the Prime Minister give to parents who are forced to abandon their children under the work-testing regime in terms of efficient quality childcare given the Government’s $400 million cuts to early childhood education? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The member has made a number of mistakes in her question so let me take this moment to correct her. For a start-off when National became the Government at the end of 2008 expenditure on early childhood education in this country was approximately $800 million a year. This year it is $1.4 billion—that is a $600-million-a-year increase. I think it is also worth pointing out that a large proportion of New Zealand women with children do go to work and they go to work and rely on the childcare facilities that are in place right across the country and in fact I do not think it is right or fair to accuse those women of abandoning their children. What they are doing is trying to support their home. 
Metiria Turei 
: Has the Prime Minister looked at the last Ministry of Social Development analysis of the last work-testing regime that showed that young children were put at risk of being abandoned left alone at home left alone with other children or left in the hands of unsuitable carers and what guarantee can he give that children will not be put in that situation under the current work-testing regime? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: As I said earlier the Government is investing an enormous amount of money in childcare facilities and supporting amongst other things 20 free hours’ care and a whole bunch of other systems that enable people to actually go to work. If the member is making the case that for this specific group which is quite small in nature that is abandonment then the member is making the case that every New Zealand mother or father is abandoning their child when they go to childcare and frankly if that is the case the member is speaking rubbish. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Does he plan to evaluate his Government’s Job Summit in light of the National Employment Indicator figures released today that show there are fewer jobs now than when the summit was held and almost 40000 fewer jobs since he took office? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I do not have those numbers to hand but let me take the opportunity to update the member if she is concerned about whether there are jobs for people to go to. The ANZ jobs report for January showed there were jobs on offer in every region of this country. There were 30000 jobs there. If you go and have a look at Work and Income they receive 1300 to 1500 vacancies a week and on average they have 3500 jobs on offer. Last year 80000 people went off a benefit and into work. In the last 2 years under the household labour force survey— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Where are— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not aware that the Prime Minister said anything objectionable in his answer. He was answering a question very factually which you have repeatedly required Ministers to do. He certainly was not— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The honourable Leader of the House does not need to make that interjection. The Prime Minister in opening his answers did not actually have the information the figures the member was referring to in her question and went on to offer perfectly reasonable information that he did have and that is why I allowed it to go on for some time but there is a limit to how long an answer that is not directly answering the question should go on and that is why I intervened. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think the Prime Minister was being polite because the member was misleading the House with that question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The honourable Leader of the House knows that he must not make that kind of allegation under a point of order. Members are honourable members and the figures can be disputed by the Minister answering but no other member under a point of order can question the accuracy of what a member in this House says. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think we do need to go a bit further. The member did source her quote— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! No we are not going to debate this matter by way of point of order. That is totally out of order. We have got into this trouble because it was a spurious point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the House and we are not going to go any further down that path. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Remembering his May 2010 statement—170000 new jobs would be created by 2015; that is 34000 a year—where then are all these new jobs when fewer than 14000 were created in 2011 according to Statistics New Zealand or was he talking about Australia? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: If one looks at the household labour force survey alone 62000 new jobs were created over the last 2 years. As I said there are 30000 jobs currently in the ANZ survey on offer at the moment. If one looks at the number of people who went off benefits and into work last year there were 80000. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I specifically referred him to the latest figures from Statistics New Zealand of 13945—that is dramatically less than 34000 a year—and he is quoting from a whole lot of other pieces of paper none of which are to do with Statistics New Zealand. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The household labour force survey is put together by Statistics New Zealand. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will hear the Rt Hon Winston Peters. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Statistics New Zealand reported that 13945— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! We are not going to debate this matter further by way of point of order. The member asked a question where he inserted what he alleged to be information from Statistics New Zealand. The Prime Minister answered the question likewise using information from Statistics New Zealand and that is the end of the matter. There is nothing further to pursue by way of points of order. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table those papers. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No we do not table stuff that is already available to members via Statistics New Zealand. 
Metiria Turei 
: How does the Prime Minister reconcile the advice of his Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman that early and intensive support for vulnerable children and their families is critical for their long-term success with his policy of coercion forcing sole parents into low-paid insecure work and thereby abandoning their children to the care of others? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Well let us take the simple example I gave the member earlier—that is somebody who goes into 20 hours’ work a week or more. Because of the structure of Working for Families that means that their income in that household is $25000 a year minimum and the person on the domestic purposes benefit would be getting $15000. If you add to that the fact that the Government is providing enormous support around these families and individuals in terms of retraining and help I personally think it is actually helping those families to give them the assistance to give them the training to give them the childcare facilities and to actually make sure that they get an opportunity to fill their lives. And if anyone thinks that that is going to come through a lifetime on welfare then they should go all the way back to the architect of the welfare system Michael Joseph Savage whose exact words were: “Welfare will never be an armchair ride to prosperity.” 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Could the Prime Minister tell the country which set of figures does he believe: the 13945 new jobs created in 2011 according to Statistics New Zealand or the household labour force survey that he said reported 63000 new jobs being created in the last 2 years? Which of those two figures does he expect the country to believe? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Well for a start I said 62000 and I am not questioning the member on the other; I am simply saying the household labour force survey quite clearly shows that 62000 jobs were created in the last 2 years. 
Metiria Turei 
: Can the Prime Minister assure this House that his work-testing regime of sole parents of very young babies—as young as 12 months—will not put a single child at risk of harm or abuse or neglect? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What I can say is firstly it is important to understand that anybody who is required under the new system to be available for work is literally that—needs to be available for work. If there is not a job then there are no changes to their benefit entitlements. Secondly no one can ever have 100 percent confidence in the system because from Kaitaia to Bluff there are many many many households who rely on the quality of early childhood facilities or caregivers or others to support them. I think we all know that the system is not perfect but there is no reason to believe it would be any different for those potentially up to 4000 mothers from what it is for the hundreds of thousands of others across the country who rely on the system. 
Metiria Turei 
: Will the Prime Minister commit to abandoning the work-testing regime if there is any evidence that shows that any child—even one child—is harmed as a result of the coercion of sole parents into work? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What I will give a commitment to is ensuring that as far as the Government can the policies and legislation that this Government is responsible for do the best to protect every New Zealand child. That is not something that should be applied to one group of New Zealand parents and not to others. That is my expectation as Prime Minister of every parent in this country. But for the member to argue that somehow the 4800 mothers—largely teenage mothers—who last year had another baby on the domestic purposes benefit are somehow different as far as the expectations the Government would have for any other mother or father in the country is just plain wrong. 
Metiria Turei 
: I seek leave to table two documents. The first is the Ministry of Social Development’s 2001 evaluation of the work-testing regime from the 1999 reform showing that children were put at risk. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Metiria Turei 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My apologies. I just want to get some clarification. I was going to seek leave to table a document from the Ministry of Social Development showing benefit numbers. Is that a publicly available document under the rules such that it would not be able to be tabled? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If it is from the Ministry of Social Development if it is a document that is readily available yes. We do not waste time in the House on that. But for the first document the member sought leave leave has been granted.