McDowall James; Little AndrewDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT): Thank you Madam Chair. Just a couple of questions to kick off for the Minister. I'd like him to elaborate on what assurances he can provide that the independence of this office and the inspector-general—that the independence can be maintained to a high standard and that a future Minister of Defence given the framework can't just prevent an investigation from going public or even to Cabinet to Parliament or even the existence potentially of an investigation. I'll just kick off with that one—if the Minister could give us assurances how this might maintain independence thank you.Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Defence): Thank you Madam Chair and I thank Dr McDowall for his question. I think the answer to the member's point will be found in clause 9 the requirement that The Inspector-General must when performing … [their] functions (a) act impartially fairly independently and in the public interest; and (b) have regard to the military context". So I'm satisfied that statutory obligation on the inspector-general to act independently is very clear cut and any conduct by the Inspector-General of Defence that looks like the office holder has compromised their independence would render any inquiry and investigation or at least its conclusions if not questionable possibly unlawful if they haven't truly acted independently. And I would fully expect that not only the incumbent Inspector-General of Defence but people such as the incumbent Minister and the incumbent Chief of Defence Force will know that their obligation is to ensure that that statutory obligation is properly adhered to.Dr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT): Thank you Mr Chair and I thank the Minister for his answers there. Just a quick question about jurisdiction. Given this is a current issue will the inspector-general be looking at for instance as I alluded to in my second reading speech personnel who are on leave who are fighting in an overseas theatre when they shouldn't be—for instance there is a current reality we have personnel fighting unofficially in the Ukraine even if we're talking about a small number. So I'm just curious because that's quite pressing.Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Defence): Thank you again to Dr McDowall. I think again clause 8 of the bill is clear that "(1) The functions of the Inspector-General are (a) to investigate (i) incidents that have occurred in the course of activities of the Defence Force." And so if there is a serving personnel member who is on leave and going off conducting other operations akin to combat operations but not as a member of the NZDF then that will not come under the auspices or the aegis of the Inspector-General of Defence. It is possible that under subclause (1)(b) of clause 8 of the bill in the assessment function which is assessing and identifying potential improvements or additions to policies and procedures an inspector-general might express a view about the granting of leave to serving personnel to do those sorts of things but I think that would be somewhat limited by the fact that even considering policies and procedures must relate to activities of the defence force but I have to concede that there is possibly a grey area there.Dr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT): I just thank the Minister again. A previous statement talking about the personnel and how they might perceive this I was just wondering—you know there's pulse surveys there's other surveys that have been conducted. Have there been any studies on how this legislation is perceived by our personnel?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Defence): I'm not aware of any surveys that have specifically touched on this legislation. In the end this legislation arose out of the commission of inquiry into Operation Burnham. That itself was prompted by the book produced by the investigative journalists. It's interesting to note that some of the content—a significant proportion of the content—of that book by those investigative journalists came from serving personnel including personnel who served in and at the time of the events that were the subject of the book and Operation Burnham. So my expectation is that there will be personnel who will be reassured that there is some oversight. And in the event that there is activity that they see or issues that they see that are not otherwise covered by courts of inquiry that could be the subject of an approach to the Inspector-General of Defence."