4. Question No. 4—FinanceNICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 4—Finance4. NICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Finance: Is it Government policy to introduce an income insurance scheme; if so how would this scheme be funded?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): The Government is committed to the introduction of such a scheme although final decisions on the scheme's design have not yet been made by Cabinet. But the earliest that the scheme would be introduced is in the 2024-25 financial year. We are one of only a few countries in the OECD that doesn't have a scheme of this nature meaning that when redundancy or health conditions and disability results in someone losing their job as occurs for more than 100000 New Zealanders a year they get far less support than those in practically any other advanced country. The scheme was developed at the urging of Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions to provide an enduring solution to protect people and the economy after job losses like those seen in the Canterbury earthquakes and COVID-19. In answer to the second part of the question the set-up costs of the scheme are being met by the Government while payments to New Zealanders who lose their jobs and to operate the scheme will be funded by levies on employers and employees.Nicola Willis: Well does he agree with the Salvation Army who said of the Government's proposed scheme It will result in a two-tiered approach to welfare that is more likely to increase inequalities than reduce them."?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No I do not. What I think the scheme will do is fill a gap in our social security system a gap that Governments of all shades have had to fill with ad hoc measures in the past. More than 100000 New Zealanders lose their job every year. Not everyone has redundancy agreements. Not everyone can afford income insurance. This is about making sure that social security in New Zealand is provided for all. And on the other part of the member's question I'd say in this House we're proud of the fact that we've increased benefits in 2020 2021 and 2022. The member's crocodile tears on that don't work because National opposed that.Nicola Willis: How much would the levy remove from the pay packet of a worker earning $60000 a year?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I don't have those numbers with me. But what I can say is for a person earning approximately that much they would pay around $16.12 a week in levies. And if they lost their job or if they got cancer they would receive $928 per week in insurance payments. This is about making sure that every New Zealander is protected from the worst thing happening in terms of redundancy or getting a serious illness.Nicola Willis: Why does he want to force New Zealanders to pay more tax when we already have a welfare system and when they're already struggling with rising prices and mortgage payments?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What I want to make sure is that New Zealanders are protected in the event that they lose their job through redundancy or a health condition. The member's own party did this in the wake of the Canterbury earthquakes. We did it in the wake of COVID. It is better to have a long-term scheme as almost every other country in the OECD does rather than an ad hoc scheme.Hon Michael Wood: Can the Minister confirm that one of the reasons that a social unemployment insurance scheme has been supported by both Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions is that in addition to providing income protection the scheme as consulted upon would also provide supports to assist workers who have been displaced to get back into the labour force thus preventing long-term unemployment?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That is exactly correct and it is one of the driving reasons for the support for this scheme in other parts of the world. Active labour market policies are an important part of the scheme. People do have obligations under the scheme to be able to take up work and take up training opportunities. This is done all over the world because it is the right thing to do to protect people in the event of the worst thing happening at their work place.Nicola Willis: Is the Minister aware that New Zealand is experiencing record worker shortages and does he understand that in that context the last thing New Zealand workers and businesses want is to pay yet another tax to pay for a gold-plated welfare scheme?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I said in my primary answer the Government does not intend to introduce this scheme until at least 2024-25. And I've got a prediction for you that when we get to that point the National Party will do just as they did with KiwiSaver just as they did with the super fund just as they did for Working for Families: they criticise it in opposition they vote against it and then they keep it. And they would do exactly the same thing if God forbid they got into Government.Nicola Willis: Why is the Minister's answer to every challenge to ask New Zealanders to pay more tax and to make a grab on pay packets that are already going backwards in real terms?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I repeat again for the member: the scheme is not designed to be introduced until the 2024-25 financial year. What we have done is work with Business New Zealand work with the Council of Trade Unions to come up with a scheme that supports people when they lose their job through redundancy that makes sure they're looked after if they get cancer and they can't work and that helps people retrain. This is a conventional social security measure used all over the OECD and I think it is the right thing for New Zealand to do."