O'Connor Greg; Russell Deborah; Xu-Nan LawrenceLOCAL GOVERNMENT (WATER SERVICES PRELIMINARY ARRANGEMENTS) BILLDebate resumed from 7 August.Part 2 Water services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirementsCHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Members we come now to the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. When we were last considering the bill we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 46B Water services delivery plans and foundational information disclosure requirements".Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour): Oh thank you very much Mr Chair. Mr Chair just a reminder of what we were doing in terms of working through the committee stage of this bill. We were going part by part but in actual fact there are three quite substantive subparts to Part 2 of the bill. We had worked our way through Part 1 and when the debate last closed on this we were making our way through Part 2 so Subpart 2 of Part 2. So we haven't yet even begun to address any part of Subpart 3 of Part 2. Indeed we have quite a few questions left and issues to discuss relating to Subpart 2 of Part 2.Just as a reminder Subpart 2 of Part 2 exercises itself with what the Minister can do in relation to water services delivery plans so specifically about those ministerial powers. Now we had just started discussing it but had just a very few speeches on it. There is a particular issue I want to bring up fairly early on and it's a point of contrast within Subpart 2 of Part 2 because Subpart 2 of Part 2 gives the Minister the power to do a couple of things—very specific powers that the Minister can exercise. She or he can appoint under clause 20 "may appoint a Crown facilitator" and under clause 23 he or she "may appoint a Crown water services specialist". So there are two types of roles to which the Minister can appoint people.To be honest looking in terms of what these people can do they do seem to cross over in quite some degree as to what a Crown facilitator can do versus what a Crown water specialist can do. It's not even necessarily particularly clear in which circumstances a Minister would appoint a Crown facilitator versus when she or he would appoint a Crown water services specialist.So for the benefit of the many people following at home at 20 to 6 on a Thursday evening—Hon Matt Doocey: There's quite a lot of them.Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: Yep plenty of people following along I should think. Actually for the benefit of everyone who will want to understand the differences between these two roles—and also in terms of making sure it's in the Hansard. Again it's possible that this could be litigated at some stage and one point of litigation might be whether it was appropriate to appoint a Crown facilitator versus a Crown water services specialist.So there are a couple of things that I would like to hear from the Minister in this regard. One is the difference between the roles of these two people. Now I'm just going to note that the person may be a panel—all right. So the bill does explain that it could be one individual but it could also be a panel of people. That's obviously just a decision for the Minister as well. But what I want to understand is the difference between the roles of the facilitator and the specialist.I'm also trying to understand when the Minister would appoint those people. What would cause the Minister to decide on one of these roles rather than the others? Is it a time-based thing? As in sort of a time during the process - based thing? Is it based on the particular needs of the underlying regional territorial authority? What exactly is that that would drive that difference there? I think it's worth getting that on the record for the Hansard so that we do have an understanding of it recorded. Who knows it might prevent future litigation or it might not but it would certainly give us a good explanation as to what is going on.Dr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green): Thank you Mr Chair. Just to reinforce what the previous speaker the Hon Dr Deborah Russell has said for us we're also currently on Part 2 Subpart 2 out of three subparts for this particular section. In the previous session one of my colleagues Francisco Hernandez mentioned around the criteria for appointment of the Crown facilitator as well as the Crown water services specialist.But I would like to sort of change the focus in a slightly different way and look at in this case clause 20(4) which is that when we're looking at a Crown facilitator—a Crown facilitator can be a singular person. According to subclause (3) of clause 20 it can be one person or a panel of two or more people and if it is a panel of two or more people then the Minister must appoint one member as the chairperson. My question to the Minister is if the Minister wouldn't mind clarifying whether it's a standard practice to appoint just one person as a chairperson or is there room or opportunity—why was it limited the co-chair option?The reason that I raise this is because subclause 2(b)(ii) of clause 20 which is where the Minister is able to or may consider appointing a Crown facilitator on the grounds that a group of territorial authorities is having difficulties agreeing on the terms of a joint plan. This is interesting in terms of tying it to a previous clause clause 17(3)(b)(iii). But I want to focus on the fact of what happens if you're in a situation where the group is having difficulty agreeing to a joint plan and the best opportunity for there to be an agreement is to appoint co-chairs from for example either of the group as opposed to limiting it to one particular member which then may further create friction between the two groups who may not be in agreement. Of course the Minister is within their right to appoint this as someone who is completely independent but I'm just checking if that option of having co-chairs was considered.The next part I want to mention as a part of clarification from the Minister is around clause 21(2)(da). Now this is how a Crown facilitator is appointed which is essentially the same clause as clause 24(2)(da) as well. I would like to focus specifically on the terms of—if the Crown facilitator or the water service specialist is appointed detail how renumeration and expenses of the Crown facility will be apportioned between territorial authorities. Now I've got two points of clarification and the first part of that has to do with the actual cost itself which is detailed in clause 29 of the fees framework.Now in clause 29(2) it talks about the fees framework being determined by the Government. When we are searching in terms of the fees framework we have both the Government fees framework as well as local government and also territorial authorities fees frameworks. So to give an example based on 2022's determination the Government fees framework for someone who is in a position of a chair and scores a score of 24 to 28 is $594 to $1265. However for Auckland Council for the same band of score 24 to 28 it is the cost of $540 to $1150 which is less. So in this case if the territorial authority—the reason that they're being appointed a Crown facilitator is because they have not been able to manage the plan or been able to manage some of the cost. Having the Government determination as opposed to the local government determination may also add additional financial burden to the local government as well.So that point of clarification as well from the Minister if he wouldn't mind clarifying whether that has been taken into consideration—that if we're using the Government determination it will be at a greater cost to the territorial authorities.Hon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for ACC): Thank you very much Mr Chair and just to acknowledge Lawrence Xu-Nan who gave me flashbacks to the time he kept me here till midnight for the ACC debit instalment bill something I am still trying to recover from! Clearly he's getting settled in for another marathon effort.To the Hon Dr Russell in response to some questions around appointing a Crown facilitator versus a Crown water services specialist—is the crossover clear; what are the circumstances around appointment—I've been advised that a Crown facilitator is mainly for assistance to councils during the preparation of water services delivery plans. It's the intention that they can be available to advise and assist councils whereas Crown water services specialists are for when a council fails to submit a plan at all and mainly when the Minister has lost confidence in a council's ability to develop a suitable plan or to give effect to the plan. So which of the appointments might be needed will depend clearly on the situation and what kind of skills are needed at that point in time."