Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:629;Page:1670] 
12.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she still believe Hon David Benson-Pope “to be an honest man who answered the questions to the best of his recollection”; if so why? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister) 
 on behalf of the 
 Prime Minister 
: I thank the member for his question which was referred to him by the National Party. Yes because she believes that he answered the question to the best of his abilities. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I have been trying to understand how the first comment had anything to do with the answer and what it was to do with. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I was just pointing out that this was a question set down for the National Party. It was transferred to the ACT party by the National Party. 
Hon Members 
: What? 
Rodney Hide 
: No. We swapped Tuesdays. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I think all this is irrelevant. We will stick to questions and answers. 
Rodney Hide 
: Could the Prime Minister tell the House whether she believes that the Minister was telling the truth when he said on 12 May in Parliament: “I have not been guilty of or involved in any inappropriate behaviour in my 24 years as a secondary school teacher. As well I am not aware of any complaint of any kind.” and if the Prime Minister believes that the Minister was telling the truth could the Prime Minister explain in what way that was a truthful statement? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The Prime Minister said in an answer to a previous question in relation to the matter of the complaint that she believes it an error of judgment that Mr Benson-Pope did not view the parent’s letter as a complaint because it did not breach school policy and was not dealt with as a disciplinary matter. It is a fact that it did not breach school policy and it was not dealt with as a disciplinary matter. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Given the testimony both by the principal and indeed by the students who made complaints that Mr Benson-Pope never for example entered the shower room and that privacy of students was never compromised to what does he attribute the repeated innuendo by Mr Hide other than desperate political opportunism and dishonesty? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I believe that there has been concerted— 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I would ask you to reflect on that question and ask yourself how it can possibly be in order for a—[ 
Interruption 
] Well they can try to interrupt me during a point of order—and I notice they can get away with it. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry—everyone has got away with it today. That will be it for this week and the next week we come back after the recess will be a new week. 
Rodney Hide 
: How can it possibly be in order for a Minister to get up and ask another Minister and sort of try to make an inference and suggest that somehow my questioning is dishonest? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Was there an implication of dishonesty? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Of course there was. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: If there was then I ask the Minister to withdraw it. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I withdraw that aspect of the question but mentioning political opportunism is absolutely within the Standing Orders and desperate political opportunism particularly suits that member. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: “Political opportunism” is not an unparliamentary term in the context of what we are debating here. 
Lindsay Tisch 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. When the Minister withdrew his answer he should not have qualified it after it was withdrawn and that should be ruled out of order. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I agree. The Minister should just withdraw and apologise and then we can proceed. There will be no further comment. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Does that mean I have to ask the question again in respect of political opportunism because it is not clear from your ruling whether I need to repeat that question? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No. The question stands with that deletion. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It is clear that there has been a concerted campaign of continuous misrepresentation of what actually happened. In the case of the issue relating to the showers—[ 
Interruption 
] I have the microphone and none of those members can be heard outside this place—the girls themselves and all other evidence is clear that Mr Benson-Pope never entered the showers and never saw any naked girls. When last night on television that assertion on TV3 was repeated and then the Prime Minister’s reference to an error of judgment relating to a different matter was run back to back that just shows how concerted this campaign has been particularly between TV3 and Mr Hide. I challenge Mr Hide to tell the public of New Zealand how much taxpayers’ money has been spent on him flying to Dunedin and back to try to gather together—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: —his sleazy series of accusations. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Did everyone hear that answer or must it be repeated? 
Rodney Hide 
: I missed the last bit and I think it concerned me. I would quite like to hear it. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I challenge Mr Hide to tell the taxpayers of this country how much money has been spent by them paying for his airfares to go backwards and forwards to Dunedin and elsewhere to gather evidence for his sleazy campaign. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Prime Minister believe that any complaint of any kind was lodged against David Benson-Pope in his 24 years as a teacher? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes; it is clear a complaint was lodged. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Given the previous answer does the Minister believe that the scurrilous allegation made by Mr Hide yesterday in this House was not only wrong but libellous and is he aware that that member has ever had the courage to say it outside this House? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That question is not in order. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I would have thought— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have just ruled it out of order Mr Hide so I have addressed your point. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that she has just told the House that she does believe there were complaints of any kind lodged against David Benson-Pope during his 24 years as a teacher? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: As the Prime Minister made clear she believed that Mr Benson-Pope had made an error of judgment in not viewing—[ 
Interruption 
]—that member should keep quiet—the parent’s letter as a complaint because the matter did not breach school policy and was not dealt with as a disciplinary matter. The Prime Minister has already made that statement to the House. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is it now the case that the Prime Minister believes that David Benson-Pope knew about the bullying complaints and the school camp complaints but did not reveal that to Parliament because he believed they were not formal and serious complaints; or does she believe that he just misled Parliament as everyone else in this House believes? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I reject the last assertion. There are many members of this House who do not believe— 
Hon Bill English 
: He lied. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: He did not lie. The only person in this House I know of who has actually been found guilty of lying is Dr Nick Smith to a court. The court found he had lied to it. 
Hon Steve Maharey 
: Has the Minister seen any other reports relating to members of Parliament and school camps? 
Hon Member 
: Get out the dirt. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: No not dirt at all just the following extraordinary exchange on television: “Judith you’d be the first person leaping up and down if the school did this and something happened and a paedophile went on a camp.”; Judith Collins: “No actually I wouldn’t really.” That was only a few nights ago on television. 
Judith Collins 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I seek the leave of the House to table the entire transcript of that particular interview so that my position can be properly represented. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rodney Hide 
: Who does the Prime Minister believe: David Benson-Pope who told the House yesterday that he did not slap a pupil on the thigh when it was against policy and against the lie; or Geana Earl who went on camera and said that he did and that it was her thigh and a second witness to the slap whom I have spoken to today? If he believes the Minister over these two former pupils what is the basis of that belief? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I have seen the reply that was drafted by the school to be sent which also cited evidence from the accompanying female schoolteacher that no slap was observed to have occurred. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The Minister was actually quite clever not to address the question and say whether he believed the Minister or the pupils. Can we take it that in fact the Prime Minister is not prepared to stand up and say that they believe this Minister any more? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Remember we are not having these trivial points of order now. The Minister did actually address the question. It may not have been to the satisfaction of the member or the answer he wished but it did address the question being asked.