Business of Select Committees — Appointments 
Business of Select Committees — Appointments 
[Volume:661;Page:9852] 
Business of Select Committees 
Appointments 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I move  
That the House establish a committee to consider and report to it on such legislation concerning the referendum on the electoral system and reform to the electoral finance regime that may be referred to it; the committee to consist of 12 members to be nominated by parties to the Speaker as follows: New Zealand National 4 New Zealand Labour 3 Green Party 1 ACT New Zealand 1 Maori Party 1 United Future 1 and Progressive 1; and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions; during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House; on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House; and outside the Wellington area during a sitting of the House despite Standing Orders 187 189 and 190(1)(b) and (c).  
The bills that are referred to at the start of that motion are both very important bills that come under the general heading of constitutional bills. The MMP referendum which is to be held following the passing of the legislation to enable it will choose a new electoral system for New Zealand and it is important that all of the parties in this House at least have an opportunity to form the bill so that New Zealanders can make the best possible choice for the sort of electoral system that we have in the future. Reform of the electoral finance regime is something that affects all politicians and the general public and it is very very important that we have as much consensus as possible about how those arrangements are to be in place in future. They have been controversial in the past as all of us in this House know. I can report to the House that my colleague the Hon Simon Power the Minister of Justice has been working constructively with parties in the House to ensure that this process will work extremely well. 
I make reference to the latter part of the motion which empowers the select committee to meet at various times outside those provided for in the Standing Orders. It is not intended that this committee will operate in a way that is disrespectful either to the Parliament or to the legislative process. The provisions that are here are largely to accommodate the smaller parties which would have difficulty in getting members to this committee when they were committed to other select committees at the same time. The point has been well made that we do have adequate time particularly during adjournments for this committee to go about its work to ensure that as many New Zealanders as possible have their say on these bills. With those few comments I indicate our party’s support for this motion. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour) 
: 
 The Labour Opposition is in support of Government motion No. 4 to establish a special committee of the House to consider legislation regarding the electoral system and also a subsequent bill for a regime on electoral finance. We concur with the comments made by the Leader of the House that it is important that all parties are represented on this committee; the motion has been worded in a way that reflects that. Anyone observing the make-up of the committee in terms of numbers would see that they are not strictly proportional but on this occasion that matter does not come to the immediate bother of the Opposition such is the way in which the business of this committee will be conducted. 
The Leader of the House quite rightly says that enormous effort is being made by political parties to ensure that there is agreement on these topics. Parliament and our electoral system work best where there is consensus across the House about the rules of engagement about how the system should function. I believe very genuine effort is under way in this respect. 
The Leader of the House mentioned the Minister of Justice Simon Power who has worked very closely with our spokesperson on justice the Hon Lianne Dalziel in order to make sure that the bill that was introduced today the Electoral Referendum Bill has as many points of agreement in it as possible. Clearly there will not be 100 percent agreement but it is hopefully clear to the House that every party is going into this process seeking that total agreement. We would like to be able to report this bill back to the House with a great degree of unanimity across the Parliament which is why it is so important that all parties are represented on the committee. 
Some concern was raised by Labour about the nature of the motion that has been put before the House particularly regarding the ability of the select committee to meet at any time. I was very pleased that in subsequent discussions the Leader of the House has given me assurance and he has just given it to the House that that provision will not be abused—to have the committee meeting morning noon and night at any time. That has been our criticism of other legislation particularly that around Auckland governance. The committee met too often and had to rush through. Mr Twyford will correct me if I am wrong but sometimes meetings were scheduled that lasted 12 hours sometimes on a Saturday. It is not that anyone shies from hard work but it is very hard to try to rush through considering submissions from the public which have been well thought out. There is no possible way that members can listen for 12 hours in a row and remember everything they are told. It is important for the credibility and confidence of the public that this process be handled with great integrity so I am glad that the Leader of the House has given us an assurance that the authority or flexibility that we are likely to vote to this special committee will not be misused in any way. Also I understand that it is not the Government’s intention to have a Minister chair this select committee. It will be chaired by a member of Parliament and I strongly welcome that decision. It is a much better process for a select committee of this nature. 
In closing I make reference to the work that the Parliamentary Service Commission is doing to align the rules for parliamentary expenditure alongside the rules for electoral financing and for the money that can be spent or the way that money can spent promoting electoral referendums. We want to line up the rules that the Parliamentary Service Commission has to follow by way of the Speaker’s directions and the legislation for the referendum and electoral finance. I am very confident we will be able to do that and maintain a consistent definition of “parliamentary purposes” which all fits into this wider topic. 
There is a lot of work to be done to get this matter right but I am very confident that with the goodwill of all the parties in the House we can do it. Once we have got the rules correct we can focus on our policy differences around the different electoral systems that are being promoted in the referendum. If we can make sure that the debate in our country is focused on those issues of substance rather than sniping about issues of process I believe it will result in an excellent debate that will serve the people of the country. Therefore Labour will support the Government’s motion to establish this committee. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I think I’m developing sleep apnoea. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I was going to finish by giving a bit of praise to the Hon Gerry Brownlee because he has had a particularly rough week but he put a nasty little dig across the Chamber—in the spirit of bipartisanship! It makes me just not want to do it. This is the last chance I will get to wish him a happy Easter so I wish him all the very best in that particular regard. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I stand to speak on the motion on behalf of the Greens. The Green Party will be supporting the Government’s motion. We think that it makes a lot of sense to establish a cross-party committee to deal with this incredibly important constitutional issue. Few things are more important than the very nature of our democracy. How we vote in members of Parliament and the very make-up of this Chamber will be determined by the outcome of the process that we are embarking on here today. So we think that it is essential that this matter goes to a cross-party committee. The Greens are of course big supporters of MMP and we have made that very clear all along. MMP is a much fairer system than first past the post and it provides a much fairer representation in the House for women and for Maori Pasifika and Asian people. For those reasons the Greens have been very clear that we support MMP. We also think it is essential that as this is a constitutional process the committee dealing with it has representation from across Parliament and for that reason we will be supporting this motion. 
I also think it is important to put this process into its historical context. The process that we are engaged in here today is part of the grand story of democracy in the Western hemisphere. Democracy in the European tradition and the American tradition has a long history that goes back to I guess Athenian days but in particular to the English Revolution of the 17th century then the American Revolution and the French Revolution all of which have made contributions. I think that the story of our democracy the process of evolution—and it is the process that this motion addresses today—has been a progressive one and MMP has been a progressive step in the evolution of our democracy. We certainly hope that by setting up a cross-party committee and going through a proper process we can make sure that our democracy is deepened rather than turned round to go back to a system such as first past the post which was an extremely undemocratic system. We also recognise that it is tremendously important for the diversity of voices in our country to be represented in this House and that MMP has been tremendously important in doing that. 
We think that the select committee process that is established also to some degree reflects the other conversation that we need to have about our democracy which is that it is not just about voting at elections; it is also about the discussion and the deliberative democracy that happens in a select committee process such as the select committee that is being established here. A democracy does not just start and finish with the ballot box. It is much much more than that; it is a deliberative process. A deliberative democracy requires processes such as this select committee to be established so that people can come along and have their say on what they think about the process that has been set up here for the MMP referendum. In that regard we encourage people to submit to the select committee particularly on the issue of spending caps which has been a controversial one—spending caps on the referendum and whether there should be spending caps. Currently within the legislation there are no spending caps and there are concerns that we could see a rerun of the Peter Shirtcliffe campaign from the last MMP referendum. 
We hope that by setting up a broad-based select committee which this motion does we will encourage the public to make submissions about how they think the referendum on their democracy should be run. At the end of the day this is the people’s democracy. It does not belong to the 122 people in this House or to the Minister; it belongs to the people of New Zealand. We certainly hope that the select committee process that is to be established under this motion will result in large numbers of New Zealanders making submissions on the legislation before us so that they can contribute to the process of the MMP referendum. 
Once again I say we think that MMP is the best system. It is much better than any of the other options on the table. It is a much fairer system than first past the post and produces a much more diverse representation of New Zealanders. We look forward to the ongoing debate and the referendum to come and we are very confident that the people of New Zealand will choose to stay with the fairest and most representative system MMP. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) 
: 
 The ACT Party will be supporting Government motion No. 4. I have just taken advice from the Clerk who tells me that this debate is about the actual workings of this committee and why it is being established. The ACT Party acknowledges the work that the Hon Simon Power the Minister of Justice has done in talking with all members of this Parliament and we are very pleased to be taking our place on the committee to consider electoral legislation. 
As the co-leader of the Green Party Russel Norman said this process is about democracy and we need to put it in its constitutional or historical place. Russel went on to talk about the great story of Western democracy. I think it is very important that we have cross-party agreement and that we try to reach as much agreement as we can because the last time this process took place there was a great deal of acrimony and there were some damning submissions against the previous Government’s attempt to drive through electoral reform. Who can forget the very famous words of our own Human Rights Commission when it submitted on the Electoral Finance Bill: “This bill in its current form represents a dramatic assault on two fundamental human rights that New Zealanders cherish freedom of expression and the right of informed citizens to participate in the election process.”? I think the Human Rights Commission made a very important submission. It called on the Government to withdraw the Electoral Finance Bill but sadly it was ignored. 
I think it is very important that the process we follow results in citizens being informed. I remember well the debate we had on MMP in 1993. Mr Norman has just referred to the efforts of Mr Shirtcliffe on that occasion. Mr Shirtcliffe is to be congratulated because he sought to inform the public of New Zealand. He sought to inform the public about the issues of MMP and I hope that as the committee is involved in deliberations it can take on those views. 
This committee of course is being established to consider two bills: the bill dealing with the electoral referendum—the bill setting up the referendum for the review of MMP and the electoral system—and the subsequent bill to be considered by this House to do with electoral finance. I only hope that people participate. I hope that the workings of the bill on the electoral referendum that the committee will consider are such that people participate. And I hope that people’s experience with the most recent referendum on smacking does not put them off participating. On the most recent referendum that this country considered 1.5 million New Zealanders took the trouble to vote—1.5 million—and 87 percent of them voted in favour of a change. 
I appreciate that I need to keep my comments on the subject but it is important that the bill the committee deliberates on does not put people off participating. Sadly the record of referendums has not been very good in that regard and in the last referendum some 87 percent of people voted in favour of a change but were ignored. Well they were not totally ignored—I am one of just five MPs who stand up for that 87 percent of those 1.5 million people. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: At the beginning of the member’s presentation he said that this was a narrow debate about the composition of the committee. He outlined very clearly what the scope of his contribution should be and then he proceeded to waver from it. I indicated to him at one time that he should narrow it. He acknowledged that but then he strayed away from the debate. I say to the member that this debate is narrow as he has described. I am prepared to let people have the odd sally on to another subject by way of description but to make it the major part of a presentation to this House is out of order. I ask the member to continue and to stay within the confines of the debate. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: Thank you Mr Assistant Speaker Barker; I will certainly do that. I was referring to the committee’s deliberations or potential deliberations on the electoral referendum bill. 
I now consider the deliberations on the finance bill. Mr Norman referred to the need for the public to be involved. He talked about it being a deliberative process; we want the public of New Zealand to be involved in that process and to make submissions on both of those bills. I encourage the public to make submissions in particular on the bill involving electoral finance because all too often members of this House seek to restrict those deliberations and try to put unreasonable limits on them. I thought that the Attorney-General when speaking this afternoon in question time on behalf of the Minister of Justice put it very very well when he said that we need to balance the public’s interest. The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act makes it very clear that freedom of expression—the freedom to be informed and to participate—is a very basic human right and needs to be protected. I am very pleased to think that the Government is having a very open mind towards the laws governing electoral finance. 
The ACT Party supports this motion. We will be taking our seat on the committee. In fact it is currently the ACT Party’s intention that I should represent our party on the committee and I look forward to doing so. Thank you. 
HONE HARAWIRA (Maori Party—Te Tai Tokerau) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Assistant Speaker. Tena katou katoa e te Whare. In the Maori Party’s first 3 years in the House we focused on laying down solid policy foundations based on our commitment to kaupapa Maori before entering into a relationship with the Government that included appointment to two ministerial posts. So we are able to bring a unique perspective as the independent Maori voice in Parliament to any debate including a debate on ways to improve the electoral administration system. It is on that basis that we will support this motion to establish a committee to consider legislation concerning the referendum on the electoral system. 
Hon George Hawkins 
: Tell us about Paris. 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: We expect Maori representation—kia ora George—to be a big issue for the committee as it is for the Maori Party itself particularly given that Maori present as voters on the general roll on the Maori roll and as non-voters as well. Maori people do not all buy into the electoral system hence the phrase “Don’t vote! It only encourages them.” 
For those who do buy into the electoral system there are obstacles that often make them wonder why they do so we are keen to see that change if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process. For example during the 2008 campaign nearly 100000 Maori aged 18 to 35 were not even on the roll which suggests that a major education campaign at wharekura level is critical if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process. We also found during that same campaign that another 47000 Maori had been removed from the roll because their enrolment packs had come back as being undelivered. That was nearly twice the non-Maori figure. Again that is another critical area to be addressed if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process. Clearly there is a need for more research in order to understand why the rates of Maori voter turnout and electoral registration are so much lower than those of non-Maori and there is also a need for more robust strategies specifically targeting Maori and aimed at getting them on the roll and keeping them there if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process. 
Indeed denying Maori the opportunity to vote simply because they have moved is probably a human rights issue so we are keen to investigate other options like the use of Inland Revenue Department numbers drivers’ licences community services cards SuperGold cards and data matching to ensure that those electoral rights are guaranteed to Maori hakoa kei hea ratou e noho ana. Of course once we get them on the roll and get them to agree to stay there we will still face the massive problem of low Maori-voter turnout. It is 62 percent in the Maori seats compared with 80 percent in the general seats. If I may add when we look into the factors that cause low turnout we see to no one’s great surprise that youth and poverty figure highly. So again we will be looking to policies and programmes that will change those factors if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process. 
We also note the conclusions of the 2006 Maori electoral engagement research project which said that the very state of being Maori was a key to the desire development and implementation of any programmes aimed at getting a positive result for Maori. They also noted that there needed to be better training packages before people engaged with Maori communities and that voters wanted more relevant and timely information available at the community level. Clearly a more positive electoral education campaign is needed to encourage Maori to participate in elections including programmes specifically targeting Maori aged 15 to 25 greater education about MMP and electoral process a review of the research about why Maori do not vote and campaigns with a strong message about the importance of enrolment and voting. 
The Maori Party supports any opportunity for a fresh look at the way in which elections are conducted in this country including the long queues for those voting for Maori seats at polling stations the lack of voter information the lack of translators the lack of warmth from electoral officials and the often complete absence of voter packages for those voting for the Maori seats at polling stations. Given how hard it is to get Maori even on the roll nothing is surer than the fact that making them feel worthless about their status when they come to vote is a guarantee that they will never come back again. So again if the Government is serious about involving Maori in the mainstream political process there will need to be greater attention paid to encouraging Maori voters to want to participate. 
The Maori Party has already given some thought to this vexing issue. We are happy to put forward these ideas about Maori electoral participation for the consideration of the House: that all Maori be automatically entered onto the Maori roll at 18 years of age with an option to transfer to the general roll; that the Maori electoral option be changed to allow Maori to change rolls during an election cycle; that electoral data include iwi and hapu to help in the development of tribal planning; that Maori voters be allowed to choose to vote according to their iwi base rather than their residence; and that the Electoral Act be changed so that Te Tai Tonga no longer has to include Wellington as well as the whole of the South Island so that Te Tai Tonga can properly represent Te Wai Pounamu as it always should have been allowed to do. 
The Maori Party will be represented by Rahui Katene on the Electoral Legislation Committee because we see this review as critical to ensuring the right of Maori to actively participate in a system that will have a huge impact on the future of our nation. Kia ora tatou. 
Motion agreed to.