Brownlee Gerry: Supreme Court Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee 
Brownlee Gerry: Supreme Court Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee 
[Volume:612;Page:8993] 
GERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National—Ilam) 
: 
 This bill should be renamed. It should be referred to as the “Supreme Betrayal of Justice Bill” because quite clearly that is what it is. We have a Prime Minister who comes into the House and tells us—today in fact—that our constitution is made up of several arms several documents and a range of rights and entitlements that New Zealanders expect. One of those most definitely is the right to be heard fairly by a court the right to take an appeal to higher authorities and the right—one that I would have thought all New Zealanders currently claim—to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. If that right is a constitutional right then surely overturning it has to take more than just three MPs who have done a dark deal with the Government to get some of their own sad legislation through the House. 
I am not going to refer to the Maori MPs in the Labour Party as the “Seven Dwarfs”. That would be unfair and I believe the Chair would probably say somewhat unparliamentary. But they have most definitely shown themselves to be the seven little gnomes at the bottom of Helen Clark’s garden and like gnomes made of concrete they apparently have no ability to speak. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member will please be seated. I just remind members again: “Members may not be addressed by nicknames first names and so on. They should be addressed by their proper name or by the position or portfolio they hold.” 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson I have heard your judgment and with respect if it were to stand you would destroy the debating chamber because what was said was said by way of analogy. I have heard all sorts of analogies in the House and the House is the better for them because they better describe the circumstance. I have heard analogy used on both sides of the House. For instance today I heard somebody referred to as “Wiremu Pakeha”. The person’s name is Bill English. Who protested about that? No one did because the colour and flavour of this Parliament is assisted by such analogies. With respect I think you are drawing a far too narrow proscription. It is usually when the words are offensive such as if someone were to say that someone was like Goebbels—that would be offensive—that they are ruled out. But who could possibly object to likening someone—such as the Minister in the chair Margaret Wilson—to Rose Red? I am not trying to be difficult about it Madam Chair but I think your decision is far too narrow and with respect I never did withdraw that statement that day. I left the House and was never asked to withdraw it. That is a fact. If you go back over the  
Hansard 
 
you will find that is the truth. I got sent out of the House but I did not have to withdraw the statement. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Certainly it is my clear understanding that the Speaker ruled it out and we do have Speaker’s ruling 6/1 (Supplement) which I spoke to. I take the member’s point about being too precious if one likes about certain rulings but the reference in question was certainly seen as being derogatory and was ruled out. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I seek clarification from you. Are you now saying that referring to members as gnomes is ruled out? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No I am not saying that at all; what I am saying is that its use in the context in which it was used when the Speaker ruled on it was clearly ruled out as being offensive in respect of members. It was clearly ruled that members should be referred to by their correct names not by nicknames. That ruling was very clearly given. 
Richard Worth 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No I have ruled on that matter. 
Richard Worth 
: It is a separate point of order and it is a point of clarification. Are you saying that we are not now allowed to say “and these members remind me of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”? Are you saying that you are ruling out “and these members can properly be said to have the characteristics of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”? Are you ruling out these members being called “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”? Are all those terms now on the new proscribed list? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. I just remind members again that while points of order are being heard there will be silence. No I am not ruling that at all. What I am ruling is the Speaker’s ruling that was given and the context in which it was given that day and the respect that members are due in terms of their names and their nicknames. That has been ruled on many times. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No I have ruled on this point of order. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: Yes I know and I am going to uphold you. My point relates but it is not a challenge to you at all. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Mr Brownlee please be seated. There is no need for points of clarification when I have ruled on a point of order. If it is a new point of order yes. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I thank you for your ruling. It is going to make debating in the House most interesting. I wonder whether you would now be prepared as Deputy Speaker to call the Hon Trevor Mallard back to the House and demand that he apologise for his atrocious breach earlier this afternoon of your new ruling when he referred to Bill English as “Wiremu Pakeha”. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. As the member well knows I am ruling on a point of order as has been ruled now. It is not my duty or position to rule on anything that is past. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. With respect if you are going to make a judgment that narrow then I think we should recall the Speaker. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Mr Peters are you speaking to the same point of order? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No I am raising a new point of order. There was a famous example in the British Parliament two centuries ago where a famous leader referred to his opponents as resembling nothing so much as a group of extinct volcanoes. At the end of the day if we come to the sort of judgment that you have just made then this Parliament will be the joke of Western democracies. Members will not be able to say anything of any colour or any flavour; they will not be able to use any analogies. It will always be “the honourable member this” or by his or her name. I do not think Mr Hunt had that in his mind and I do not think you have it in your mind either but that is the consequence. The next time someone on the Government side or the Opposition side hears something slightly unfavourable by way of analogy up he or she will jump and use your judgment as a precedent. I say that perhaps you would like to think about that before you come down with such a narrow judgment this afternoon. If any of my colleagues in this House think that I was referring to them when I used that famous fairy tale analogy then he or she should have risen and opposed it but they did not. Not one did—that is the point. Why are we rushing to defend others who find that robust debate which is to be found on the marae of this country cannot be used in New Zealand? More particularly the Maori members know full well that that is how Maori talk—by way of analogy and illustration. Besides which I hate to say it but sometimes people do not respond because the glove fits. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I thank the member for the points he has made. [ 
Interruption 
] Please be seated. This matter has been dealt with. I am going to move on. I call Mr Brownlee. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I have been listening quietly to the debate because I think members are now expressing concern at the standard we are setting which will be quite difficult for us to keep. I wonder whether it might not be better to ask you before you make a final ruling on the matter either to reflect on it or alternatively to call back the Speaker to get a view from him on the matter. I am worried. There are times when members in the heat of debate make a comment that can be quite humorous but under this ruling the member concerned may well have to withdraw and apologise because he or she is outside the ruling. Of course we want to keep standards and of course we ought to but there are times when there is some humour and some giveaway lines that we all chuckle at—even the recipient often—and it flows across the House. I wonder whether we might be strapping ourselves down a little bit tightly. Rather than make a definitive ruling now on this particular issue I suggest that you might want to reflect a little and give us a ruling a little later on some parameters around it just so that we can still have some humour while we go through some of these debates as we have done in the past. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I certainly take the member’s point that we certainly do not want to curb vigorous debate humour and everything else. This matter has been ruled on. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I just want to be clear. The  
Hansard 
 record will show that what I actually said was that the Maori members reminded me of “gnomes at the bottom of Helen Clark’s garden”. Am I unable to say that? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. The matter has been ruled on. Please continue your speech. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. It is the context in which it is said and that is how I judged the matter. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: Well I do not understand it. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Mr Brownlee please continue your speech. I have ruled on the matter. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I have somewhat lost my thread I must say and I think that is very unfair. I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Mr Brownlee is raising a point of order. I just remind members again that there will be silence during points of order. 
GERRY BROWNLEE 
: I move  
That the Speaker be recalled.  
Members require a more definitive position on this matter. I am sorry but the whole thread of what I was saying has been lost in all of this. Further I think the suggestion that a ruling given on a day when there was a degree of acrimony around a certain statement should then be related to another description that hardly fits I think and was certainly not an intended political insult leaves us in a difficult position. I have moved that the Speaker be recalled. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: It is not a debatable motion. 
Motion agreed to and House resumed.