Shearer David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Shearer David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 19 March 2013. Volume:688;Page:8603. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
3. 
DAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does he stand by all his statements? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes I do stand by all my statements and in that I include bank statements. 
David Shearer 
: Thank you Mr Speaker. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I want to hear the question. 
David Shearer 
: Does he stand by his statement that one of the three problems with Solid Energy was that it “added gearing to a company that historically had not had gearing” or is Tony Ryall right when he said that debt was not the cause of Solid Energy’s problems? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Both are correct. In the case of Solid Energy debt did not cause the collapse of the company but if there was not debt the Government would not have to be in the restructuring process that we are in. 
David Shearer 
: Did his Minister of Finance approve the sending of a letter to Solid Energy indicating his expectation that it would “increase their gearing from current levels”? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: My understanding is that Simon Power as the Associate Minister of Finance actually sent it not the Minister of Finance—yes. That looks pretty consistent from what I can see with the letter that Mr Mallard sent where he said that the indications were that the gearing should be around about 35 percent and in fact that the dividends should be around about 65 percent of profits. 
Hon John Banks 
: When the Prime Minister said it was unfortunate that Mr Shearer forgot to disclose— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! [ 
Interruption 
] Order! 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not believe I need assistance. The Prime Minister certainly has no responsibility for that matter. 
Hon John Banks 
: Supplementary question Mr Speaker. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Does the ACT Party have two supplementary questions today? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well I have ruled that one out. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: No no. You have ruled it out. You let him ask it and you ruled it out. At that point it is gone. You did not invite him to rephrase it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The ACT Party has one question. The member can seek leave if he so wishes. [ 
Interruption 
] Order! There is one supplementary question. It has been used up. It was ruled out of order. If the member wishes to have another supplementary question he will have to seek leave to do so. 
Hon John Banks 
: I seek leave to do so. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Although it was pretty clear from the few words that the Hon John Banks got out— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I have ruled. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I realise you have ruled. I just want to get a clarification about where we are going from here. Although it was clear that Mr Banks was going to raise a matter that has been of interest in the news recently—and you were quick to then suggest and in fact rule it out assuming that there was no link to anything the Prime Minister had said. On other occasions notably over the last few weeks you have given Opposition members an opportunity to rephrase their questions up to three times. I wonder whether it would be possible for Mr Banks to get similar treatment. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for his assistance. On this occasion I have ruled; we will move on. The questioner an experienced member raised a question that clearly was not going to be in order so he has lost that opportunity. He has sought leave. The House has the opportunity to so decide and has done so. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is not to challenge your ruling because I want to discuss the fact that Mr Banks sought leave. If he had gone on to explain that he wanted to talk about the Kim Dotcom affair— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! That is not a point of order. 
David Shearer 
: Can he confirm that the financial performance measures for State-owned enterprises including Solid Energy announced in June 2010 explicitly tell boards that they would be judged according to their gearing ratio and that the Crown expected a gearing ratio of around 40 percent? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: From memory that reflects—though I do not have the letter—the letter that was sent. I think it is also worth recalling that Mr Palmer the chairman of Solid Energy actually wrote back to Mr Power and made it quite clear that gearing ratios and matters of the balance sheet were the sole preserve of the company and not the Government. 
David Shearer 
: Does he agree with the December 2008 Treasury report that the appointments to State-owned enterprise boards are the single most important lever that Ministers have for influencing State-owned enterprise performance? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I am not sure I would say it is the single most important lever. I think it is a very important lever and that is one of the ones that this Government has followed by making I think pretty sound appointments where possible. But there are other levers of course that the Government can pull. 
David Shearer 
: If his Government is so dissatisfied with the board’s approach as he is suggesting why did it reappoint five of the members after 2008 and reappoint the chair John Palmer not once but twice? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: The member is giving different time-scales on what has taken place—[ 
Interruption 
] Well he gets confused with numbers—I will tell you that for nothing. But anyway— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: There are different time-scales but what is quite clear—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! Would you allow the Prime Minister to please answer the question. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What is clear is that during a period of time the company—in this case Solid Energy—had aspirations to change the fabric of that company into something far greater and far more audacious than was the case of the Government. In the case of the Government we pushed back on those issues. That did not mean that we did not have faith in the board but what it did say was that we did not agree with the plan it was under. When we ultimately went through the mixed-ownership model and had the scoping study it was at that point that we absolutely determined that there were bigger issues in terms of that company if we were going to go through the mixed-ownership model with that company. 
David Shearer 
: Does he seriously expect New Zealanders to believe that the Government demands that the company increase its debts promises to judge the company on that debt and then when the company’s debt increases by $178 million in a single year says that these are all somehow unrelated events? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: What is true with Solid Energy is that the board and management have sole responsibility for the quality of decision making that they do in terms of investments. What is also true is that we did not demand an increase in gearing; we followed exactly the same process that Trevor Mallard did which was the recommendations from Treasury and the company made it clear that it would make its own decisions. In the end if the member is wanting—[ 
Interruption 
] Well the member has been running around the country saying that the problem is that we want dividends when for months beforehand he was saying that the great thing about State-owned enterprises is they pay dividends. I mean you cannot have it both ways Mr Shearer. You cannot have an account in New York and an account— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You earlier ruled out one area of questioning. The Prime Minister started off out of order you brought him back into line and he finished up out of order. I wonder whether Mr Speaker this is an indication of new standards; if so— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The last part of the Prime Minister’s answer was certainly not helpful to the order of the House. Further supplementary questions? 
Metiria Turei 
: Supplementary—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! [ 
Interruption 
] Order! Supplementary question Metiria Turei. 
Metiria Turei 
: Tena koe Mr Speaker. Tena koutou e te Whare. Given the Prime Minister said yesterday that today was not D-Day for Novopay when can New Zealanders expect a decision on Novopay such that they will have confidence that schools will no longer be burdened with this failed system? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Can the member please give the date when I actually said that statement? I do not recall saying it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well in the question she said it was yesterday as I understood. Does the member want to repeat the question for the benefit of the Prime Minister? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is not a question of repeating it. I do not believe I ever said it. If the member can tell me when I said it I will respond to it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is a satisfactory answer. 
Hon John Banks 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have just asked whether the member wants to rephrase the question— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I thought the Prime Minister needed it rephrased. He has said he disagrees with the question. We are moving on. He has satisfactorily answered it. 
Metiria Turei 
: When can principals teachers and families expect from his Government either a thumbs up or a thumbs down on Novopay? It is not too much to ask for some certainty for families. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: We are working our way through those issues. As the Minister announced today the Government is coming to the party with a significant cash offering to schools to try to help them through the process. 
Hon David Parker 
: What a botch-up. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Well that was the botch-up that you guys started actually; we will just tidy it up. But you do not want to hear about that do you “Chippy”? Anyway— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Metiria Turei 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister did not address my question which was when— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Prime Minister very adequately addressed the question.