12. Question No. 12—AgricultureTODD MULLER (National—Bay of Plenty) to the Minister of AgricultureQuestion No. 12—Agriculture12. TODD MULLER (National—Bay of Plenty) to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by all his statements in his opinion piece titled No threat to farming from forestry" in the Rural News on 13 November 2019?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture): Yes absolutely I stand by that. I see forestry and farming as complementary. One of the biggest threats that I see to agriculture and the rural sector is the lack of performance from our key industry players and I have to say the failure by Fonterra to deliver sensible sustainable returns to farmers when he was in management is one of the biggest threats to industry. Todd Muller: On what basis can the Minister state in that article and I quote: "There is no Government policy that encourages high-value pastoral land to be planted in pine trees and there is no evidence of this happening."? Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: Because it's true. What we have is an ability for farmers to sell to other New Zealanders. We do not have a requirement for farmers to say what that land will be used for so the sale does offer some uncertainty and the possibility that that could go into forestry. But this Government—maybe the Opposition is proposing to intervene on the rightful sale of farm land to other Kiwis and what specifications should be there; we are not intending to do that. There is no incentive for farmers to plant forests because the one billion trees programme—well two-thirds go to indigenous forest planting and we'll have requirements around that to make sure that we have the right tree in the right place. Todd Muller: What is his view on his Government's zero carbon bill modelling that calculates that half of the net zero carbon dioxide target is likely to be achieved by planting over a third of sheep and beef land into forests? Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: I acknowledge and thank the National Party for their support of the zero carbon bill. There are numerous calculations on what will be required to meet the targets in that bill. Can I say that the amount of land that has gone into forestry in the hands of foreigners has been 8000 hectares—a very very small amount. The amount of land going into forestry in the hands of New Zealanders is hard to calculate at this time but the target that the Minister of Forestry is achieving or hoping to achieve is a maximum of 43000 hectares per year. That pales into insignificance when we see the amount of afforestation that took place under the National Government in the 1990s.Hon James Shaw: How does the rate of afforestation during his time in the role compare with other periods of high afforestation in New Zealand? Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: As I said my good colleague Mr Jones hopes to achieve the massive target of about 43000 hectares per year. That compares to 1994 under the National Government when 98000 hectares of land was planted in forest. And through the period of the 1990s when the National Government was in office 554000 hectares of trees with subsidies from the National Government were planted in trees. During that period I didn't see farmers protesting in the streets about land-use change. Todd Muller: Are you happy as Minister of Agriculture with a Government policy which envisages one-third of high-value sheep and beef pastoral land to be converted to forestry?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: It won't be and I don't ever expect that to happen again. Unless we had I guess a repeat of the kind of figures we saw in the 1990s—and they won't appear under this Government—there's not a chance in hell that that will occur. When it comes to this issue I have to say that member is all hat and no horse. Chlöe Swarbrick: Is the Minister aware that the Ministry for the Environment in modelling for the zero carbon bill now Act offered a number of circumstances to reduce and mitigate global warming? Tree planting is one but reducing emissions altogether is a better approach as they said. Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: There are many many emerging tools and technologies across agriculture and across our economy to meet the targets set out in the zero carbon bill and we will promote each and every one of them. Forestry is just but one of them and we're going to take a comprehensive and a responsible approach to it unlike the irresponsible misinformation that that party and that member put out to those farmers there this afternoon. Todd Muller: How much pastoral land has been sold by New Zealanders to New Zealanders to be converted into forestry since he became Minister of Agriculture?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: I don't know that figure because of two things. Firstly the previous Government and our Government do not require real estate agents or the sellers of farm land to specify what that land should then be used for. If the National Party is proposing that they will tell farmers exactly who they can sell their land to and what the land can be used for then put the policy up. I'm happy to debate that.Hon David Parker: Is it correct that until the changes made by this Government to screening rules for forest investment by overseas owners any overseas owner could buy any forests in New Zealand or an interest in land to put a forest on as a forest registration right and the screening regime did not cover it?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: I can confirm in fact there were very few controls on foreigners purchasing our forests or transferring. Now we have a system of robust assessment of any foreigner who wishes to purchase a forest or to purchase land for forestry. We've in fact increased the requirements not decreased them. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Will converting farmland into native forestry increase or destroy jobs? Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: It depends on what the native forest is used for and sustainable management of those forests can create many many jobs—not just the planting but the ongoing management and the utilisation of wood extracted from those indigenous forests. One of the huge benefits of planting indigenous forest on what is highly erodible land is that in fact we have better environmental outcomes that most farmers say that they want to achieve.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Can he point to any native forest that produces more jobs per hectare than farmland?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: It depends on what the farmland's used for. I'd have to say in an extensive farmland operation I would say that 200 hectares of indigenous forest sustainably harvested can create many many jobs; 200 hectares in the high country in itself doesn't create many at all.Hon David Parker: Can the Minister also confirm that until the legislation that included forest registration rights in the screening regime was introduced to close that loophole increasingly foreign investors were using that loophole to purchase interests in forests through farm registration rights rather than freehold or leasehold purchases?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: Just as happened in the 1990s when the National Government subsidised its mates to plant trees on the East Coast they've also been subsidising their foreign mates to purchase forestry. We're putting restrictions on that and we'll continue to do so. Hon Stuart Nash: Has the Minister seen reports that the Hawke's Bay Regional Council has identified 250000 hectares of land that should be in trees because it's completely unproductive and that 10 million tonnes of silt every year are flowing into Hawke's Bay and this would create more jobs than farming because this land isn't being farmed anyway?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: I have to say that the stupidity under the National Government and Robert Muldoon getting subsidised people to clear steep indigenous forest in this country has been acknowledged for years and years. As I travel around this country flying over some of these areas the only sensible thing to do is to replant some of those steep areas and to indeed give better outcomes for the farming community for all the rural community and indeed for New Zealand. The National Party if they truly are supportive of farmers should be celebrating that. Todd Muller: Why in every single answer today are you right and rural New Zealand wrong?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: While I respect the views of the people who came to Parliament today and I told them that can I say they don't represent the views of a huge number of farmers out there: the farmers who have engaged in farm forestry the farmers who have been planting trees up and down this country in the knowledge that it creates better biodiversity creates better environment outcomes and indeed adds value to their farm operation.Hon James Shaw: How much land was converted from forestry to dairy over the course of the last couple of decades?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: I can say that there have been land-use changes over many many years—Chris Bishop: It's meant to be a patsy!Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: —and not all of them have resulted—SPEAKER: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat. I just want to say that the asking and answering of questions is a right of all members and if members are moving away from pre-prepared patsy questions to ones which are real questions from either Government members or members supporting the Government then it is a good thing and not something to be screamed down Mr Bishop.Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: To put things in perspective the maximum target for my good colleague Mr Jones in terms of the one billion trees is 43000 hectares per year. That compares to the transfer from drystock and from forestry into dairy of 800000 hectares from 2002 to 2016. We've had land-use change; I didn't see the members marching in the streets then.Todd Muller: So who of the 500 farmers from the South Island Wairarapa Waikato Bay of Plenty Taranaki and Rangitīkei don't represent the views of rural New Zealand?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: Like so much of what that member said I wouldn't have counted 500 farmers out there and like most things he says he's got his figures all wrong. I don't mind a little bit of exaggeration but can I say that there are—and I spoke to a group of farmers this morning in Christchurch. They understood and certainly were not advocating for Government to intervene in their legitimate sale and purchase arrangements between one New Zealander and another. If that party is going to champion that then stand up and say so.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does the Minister agree with his colleague Shane Jones that the people out there today were rednecks?SPEAKER: Order! No no—Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: Mr Speaker I'm happy to answer this.SPEAKER: Oh all right.Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: Thank you Mr Speaker—thank you. I don't use the same words; I'm not quite as eloquent as my colleague Minister Jones. Can I say that if one was to actually look at some of the posters out there that were incredibly provocative and do not represent the legitimate views of most farmers in this country no wonder he got worked up and reacted that way.Hon Stuart Nash: Is the Minister advocating planting up productive river flats and hill country or is the Minister advocating right tree right place policy?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: As Minister Jones and I have always said—and in fact Te Uru Rākau has done some exceptional work to identify enough area in this country that has no impact on agriculture across here to plant the billion trees—putting the right tree in the right place gives a hugely beneficial outcome to each and every New Zealander.Hon James Shaw: Is it correct that something in the order of 300000 hectares was deforested in the last 10 years?Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR: That is indeed true and we didn't see protesting in the streets there. As I've said to the farmers out there this afternoon we have seen land-use change in this country often and for us to try and restrict that would then limit the innovation of farmers in this country would limit their ability to go out and make the best most sustainable utilisation of the land. That's what this Government is committed to. Forestry and agriculture will complement one another into the future I'm absolutely sure."