Little AndrewHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice): Thank you Madam Chair. We've had now a succession of members opposite who've all raised the same question or questions and so I think it's appropriate to provide the answer and hopefully to provide the answer once to the questions asked multiple times. Just taking the final point of the member who's just resumed her seat Nicola Willis which is: why confine it just to general elections? Can I just acknowledge for those who might be watching Parliament for the first time this stage of the debate on a piece of legislation is a very close and detailed examination of every clause in a particular bill which is what we call something before it becomes a law. And right now we are talking about a law that seeks to ban foreign donations to political parties and political candidates. So the reason why this bill is confined to general elections is because in the circumstances that we have now with evidence publicly given particularly by our security and intelligence agencies about the risks and the threats that we face like many other democracies of undue foreign interference and foreign influence we have to take appropriate action. But because we're doing so under urgency because we haven't had the benefit of the findings of the Justice Committee's inquiry into the 2017 general election I have made the decision to confine it just to general elections because next year is the year of a general election. We want to have the regime in place that affords protection to New Zealand voters and citizens to make sure that our democracy isn't unduly interfered with. On the issue of gaps in the bill—and I hear the points from the National Party and there is a bit of pot calling the kettle black because if you have a look at the tabled amendment that is in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith there is no reference for example to donations made to registered companies that might therefore be a vehicle through which overseas donations are routed. There is only one party in this Parliament that is currently the subject of a Serious Fraud Office investigation; it happens to be the National Party. There is only one party who in their returns in the 2017 general election showed an extraordinary number of donations to candidates from their head office and that is the National Party. So if the issue is about a law—or actions and behaviours that on the face of it could defeat the intent of the legislation—there is plenty we can look at. This bill deals with an issue that the Justice Committee is right across which is the risk and threat of foreign interference and influence in our electoral system through donations. It bans them subject to a de minimis sort of threshold. But what it does most importantly and in answer to the questions about whether it will really stop the sort of things that people are concerned about particularly going through New Zealand - registered companies and using New Zealand persons as defined in the legislation as a funnel through which donations could be made I refer members—again as I did in my opening remarks—to clause 8 of the bill and to clause 10 the bill. Clause 8 sets up the positive duty on party general secretaries—and let's remember party general secretaries are subject to a number of statutory duties right now—to ascertain that the donation is not a foreign donation.And of course the words—and Chris Penk will enjoy this. There is in subsection (1) of proposed section 207JA set out in clause 8 the word a" before the word "donation". And then following that in paragraph (a) the word "the" before "donation" tells you that it's not just donations that are suspected to be foreign; it is actually every donation that is covered. Every donation will achieve a level of scrutiny because that's the way you fulfil that duty. But then the belt and braces kicks in in clause 10 and new subsection (3) of section 207L which is a defence to the charge and it's very clear what that defence entails. If a party general secretary has not taken—in a situation where there were reasonable grounds to suspect that a donation exceeding $50 came from or was made on behalf of an overseas person then the defence will not be available and the offence will be complete.That's the belts and braces approach and answers Nicola Willis' questions and answers Gerry Brownlee's questions and answers every question raised by members opposite. That is the belts and braces approach. That is the protection that New Zealanders will have against foreign donations interceding in our democracy and in our general election. The bill is deliberately kept very simple because of the circumstances that we're in and the subject matter that we're dealing with and that is the reason why this House should get on and pass this bill."