Hide Rodney: Foreshore and Seabed Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee 
Hide Rodney: Foreshore and Seabed Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee 
[Volume:621;Page:17062] 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 That was the former dean of Waikato law school who was speaking. It has puzzled us that—we could not understand why—Hamilton law graduates could not get jobs outside the grievance industry but now we understand it given that legal reasoning. As I listened to Mr Copeland I found myself in strange agreement with him. He was complaining about the fact that this bill puts the metaphysical dimension into legislation and that the law should not rule on that. I found that to be absolutely true. Of course I found it interesting that that view came from Mr Copeland who I understood was here in Parliament in order to put the metaphysical dimension into our legislation and into Government policy—as long as it is the right metaphysics I guess.  
I go back to Mr Tamihere’s speech. It is very very clear that that member focused at university on tax law rather than on any jurisprudence or constitutional principles because how wrong could a man get? If the Government was proud of this legislation why did it present the Supplementary Order Paper just yesterday? Why is the Government racing this legislation through under urgency in a couple of days? If the Government believes that this legislation will withstand scrutiny why not take the time for that? It is because the Government knows it does not withstand scrutiny. I know that Nanaia Mahuta agrees with me on that; she is not going to vote for this bill at the third reading. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: She is. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: No no. She is a person of principle. We know that she will not vote for it. We know that John Tamihere does not agree with this bill. He is just voting for it—[ 
Interruption 
] What does he say? 
John Tamihere 
: I’m voting for it. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Oh he says he is going to vote for it—just as he said he would not take the golden handshake.  
We have not changed our view of this legislation and what we need to do is to draw the dots together. Let us take all the dots join them together and see what is going on here. The reason that Maori people are upset over this bill is a sound one. They were going through a process through the courts of New Zealand to determine what their customary rights were. They were absolutely entitled to do that. 
Hon Dover Samuels 
: They can do it under this bill. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: No they cannot do that. If they could still do that why does it need legislation? They were denied the opportunity to do that and the ACT party says that is wrong. We felt that the rights of Maori as the Court of Appeal stated were quite circumscribed—the odd reef and the odd burial site. We see no objection to Maori exercising their rights. We see no reason why they should be denied that opportunity. So Maori are upset that the Government came along and denied them their right to have their day in court. [ 
Interruption 
] Dover Samuels is yelling out and New Zealand First is yelling out that Maori do have those rights. Let us just see in this legislation what their rights are. Well they can go to the Maori Land Court and they can go to the High Court and the court can determine—what are they called—customary right orders. [ 
Interruption 
] I have to tell that member—what is his name? Darren Hughes. I have to tell Darren Hughes that when people go off to the court to have their customary rights determined they do not get a customary rights order. They get the customary rights they are entitled to.  
Hon Dover Samuels 
: Did you get a customary rights order? 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I know that Dover Samuels does not like to hear the truth about this bill. Maori can go to court and the Maori Land Court and the High Court are to determine customary rights orders. 
Hon Dover Samuels 
: Blowhard! 
RODNEY HIDE 
: He says I am a blowhard. Let me ask Mr Samuels this: how much of the foreshore and seabed in his view will be subject to a customary rights order? 
Hon Dover Samuels 
: It depends on how many whanau and hapu take their applications to the Maori Land Court and the High Court. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Oh! So that is the answer. And if Maori apply do they automatically get a customary rights order? I am asking Mr Samuels. If a whanau hapu or iwi applies does it automatically get one?  
Hon Dover Samuels 
: It has to go to the court. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: How much of the foreshore and seabed could that apply to? 
Hon Dover Samuels 
: I can’t determine that. It has to go to the court. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: He cannot determine that. Exactly! Is that not the point? We know Mr Tamihere is on record as saying it could be up to 10 percent of the foreshore and seabed of New Zealand. I say and John Tamihere says it could be a lot more. That is the problem with regard to this bill.