Power Simon: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Power Simon: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:636;Page:7050] 
4.  
SIMON POWER (National—Rangitikei) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Has he tendered his resignation as Minister of Corrections over the death of Liam Ashley in Corrections’ custody; if not why not? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 No; I have a clear responsibility to oversee changes to the corrections system to prevent such a tragedy from occurring ever again in the future. 
Simon Power 
: Who is responsible for Liam Ashley’s death? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: George Baker committed the murder. The corrections system let Liam and his family down. Mistakes were made. That system has to be changed to ensure that such a terrible tragedy cannot occur again. I am committed to making those changes. 
Ann Hartley 
: What does the Minister intend to do to prevent a similar tragedy from occurring? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Immediately following Liam’s death I directed the department to ensure that all prisoners under the age of 18 years are kept separate outside of prison in all circumstances. That will continue to stand. I have directed Barry Matthews to urgently draft a plan of action to implement all of the recommendations outlined in the report in order to prevent such tragedies. There will be further changes as necessary. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: Is the Minister saying that no one at all will be held responsible either for systemic slackness in the corrections system—such as the established practice of regularly transporting young people locked in cages with adults in breach of the law—or for specific errors such as the failure to communicate crucial information regarding risk at hand-over; is he saying that no one will be held responsible for that? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: A number of mistakes were made in this terrible set of circumstances. The system was not robust enough to protect Liam Ashley when those mistakes were made. I take responsibility for making the changes to ensure that that does not occur in the future. 
Simon Power 
: Does the Minister concede that if just one of at least 10 mistakes committed at an operational level had not occurred then this tragedy would not have occurred; if he does concede that why does he not just accept responsibility do the right thing and resign? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: That member identifies 10—possibly more—mistakes made in the system. I have a clear responsibility to ensure that the system is changed to prevent those mistakes being made in the future. 
Ron Mark 
: Is the Minister concerned about the report’s scathing assessment of the performance and procedures of the Auckland Central Remand Prison and given that the decision to change that prison from a successful privately run prison to what is apparently now a failure under public ownership was based not on its performance but on blind anti-private ideology by Cabinet with support from the Greens what responsibility does the Government accept for the prison’s failures in this case? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Yes I am very concerned that such mistakes could be made anywhere in the corrections system at any prison. We have a responsibility and I do as Minister to ensure that we protect prisoners in the corrections system and that we make the changes necessary to prevent such a tragedy occurring in the future. 
Simon Power 
: Has the Minister seen the comments of Liam Ashley’s mother Lorraine Ashley that his department is “incompetent through and through” and that heads had to roll because “It’s like a pyramid. Someone has to be held accountable.”; and how can he as the apex of that pyramid of incompetence justify the fact that he will not be seeking any resignations or dismissals—least of all his own? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I have offered the Ashleys my deepest sympathy at this terrible loss. I can understand their frustration and I too am alarmed at the mistakes made in the corrections system. I have spoken to the chief executive. He has a clear responsibility to carry out actions and changes to make sure this situation will not occur in the future. 
Simon Power 
: Can the Minister confirm that all of the 10 or more mistakes that contributed to Liam Ashley’s death came down to staff and contractors not following procedures; and in light of the fact that his department had not even bothered to make sure that those procedures reflected changes to the law in 2004 and 2005 how can the public have any confidence that the Minister has enough control over his department to ensure it follows any new rules he decides to impose? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: The overhaul of prison transportation as I have announced will start right at the top at head office to clarify who has responsibility for laying down policies and reflecting changes in legislation. The overhaul will go all the way through the corrections system to any contractors that may be involved in the transportation of prisoners at any time in the corrections system. 
Simon Power 
: Can the Minister confirm that despite the desire of the Ashley family for heads to roll no one has resigned or been dismissed from the Department of Corrections; and what does it actually take for someone from his department to get fired? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I know that the Ashley family wants an assurance—an absolute assurance—that the lessons learnt from this terrible tragedy the loss of their son will not be lost and that we will make the changes to ensure that such a loss does not happen again. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Minister received any reports that the tragedy of the Ashley family was enhanced by a political party that set up the system of moving prisoners in that way and that is now disowning all ownership of it—namely the change in 1988 by the National Government— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: 1988? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am sorry 1998—to privatise— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: New Zealand First—Ron Mark. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No it was not; no we were not. If the big fellow just keeps quiet I will tell him the facts. It was National in 1998 all by itself with Jenny Shipley. It changed the system. So is the Ashley tragedy enhanced by the total disowning of that policy by National? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I do not want to make a judgment on whether that was the particular factor. But I can acknowledge that in 1998 the system was changed to allow Chubb as a private contractor to come in and carry out work in the corrections system. 
Simon Power 
: Can the Minister confirm that both he and his chief executive Barry Matthews have claimed in the last day that they will not resign because the mistakes that led to Liam Ashley’s death were systemic; if so who is responsible for systemic problems when they are big enough to lead to somebody’s death? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Barry Matthews and myself are responsible for ensuring that the corrections system operates properly. We are responsible for making the changes to rectify faults where they are identified—the changes in policy that need to be made to prevent this happening again.