Woods Megan; Brown SimeonHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): Thank you Madam Chair. I just would like to return to clause 3(2)(b). The Minister of Local Government when I asked what his red lines would be said that councils would find it difficult. This is of course the language that is already in the bill that we have before us if I just read 3(2)(b): providing … the Minister to assist or intervene if territorial authorities find it difficult to prepare a water services delivery plan". So what I'm interested in at this committee stage while we're on Part 1 and we are going through the purpose of the legislation is for the Minister to elaborate to the committee around what "difficult" means. I think that we've got the word in front of us "difficult" but no clear direction from the Minister where his red lines are.For example the regulatory impact statement (RIS) for the bill goes through—it's got a large section on councils being forced to increase their expenditure and raise rates to address funding challenges and it goes through there. I mean "difficult" is a relative term so I'd be keen to understand in the Minister's thinking what does "difficult" mean? Is it difficult in terms of funding? Is it difficult in terms of the politics? Is it difficult in terms of the social licence? Where is the Minister's thinking on this?So if we go through what the RIS does I think in a very clear way on page 29 of the regulatory impact statement it puts a comparison of the proposed rates rises linked to water infrastructure costs and goes through a number of the then long-term plans (LTPs)—understand that a number of councils have made decisions around those LTPs since the publication of the RIS. But if we look at Ashburton council 11.5 percent rates increases because of the increased cost of needing to account for waters infrastructure. Auckland Council: around 25 percent rates increases. Buller District Council: 31.8 percent rates increases. Clutha District Council: 20 percent for one year. Gisborne 11.4 percent; Hamilton City Council 25.5 percent followed by 14.1 percent for four years; Hutt City Council 16.9 percent; Wellington City 13.8 to 15.4 percent rates increases. Then the RIS helpfully goes through why it is and which particular piece of water infrastructure because the previous reforms are being repealed—why that is putting more pressure on councils.So when the Minister says that councils will find it difficult is it these kinds of double-digit rates increases that councils are going to need to impose and are indeed as we've seen through the latest round of LTPs that councils are imposing on ratepayers? Is that what in clause 3(2)(b) the Minister has in mind for "difficult" or are there some other kinds of difficult other than double-digit rates rises that this is imposing on ratepayers around the country? That's just a small subsection of councils. I'm sure there's many other regions around the country which members will want to raise through the course of this debate as we get into the night on this legislation and what that means for ratepayers around the country.But I'm still not clear and I think this committee deserves to be clear to know where the Minister's red lines are. Where does he see the triggers that are laid out in the purpose statement of this clause for abandoning the much-vaunted localism in terms of this waters legislation and instead imposing the will of Wellington in the form of the Minister? If it's not double-digit rates rises I'm keen to know what difficult means in clause 3(2)(b). Simply the Minister repeating the words that are already on the page in the legislation I don't consider adequately addresses the questions that this committee has put to him. There was a very short select committee process for this and I think this is an issue that this House in the committee of the whole House stage needs to fully tease out.Hon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government): Oh thank you Madam Chair and I appreciate the questions from the member. I mean ultimately the detail of that and thresholds are in the clauses in Part 2 and that is where that debate will be had in more full."