Tolley AnneHon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development): I thought it would be appropriate if I took a call at this stage and addressed some of the issues that have been raised in the debate to date. I thank all members for their thoughtful approach to this first piece of legislation.I stress that this is the first piece of legislation to be put in place in order for the new ministry to be up and running on 1 April with some changes in place to help what is going to be a programme of—I keep saying—4 to 5 years' change. I understand everyone's enthusiasm and perhaps impatience for those changes to happen fast but I stress—and it will indicate why I am not going to support the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) from Jacinda Ardern—that in order to make this work we have to do it properly. We have tried on many many occasions to make some quick fixes and actually it has not changed the lives of those young people who are in State care. So I have said from the beginning that we are going to take this slowly and carefully and we are going to make the changes in the time and the manner that we can be assured is going to be in the best interests of the young people who either are in State care or are at risk of going into State care.So let us take some of the issues one by one: first of all the idea of immediately bringing into this bill the 17-year-olds in the youth justice system. There are about 5000 of them who would have come from the time this bill was enacted into the youth justice system. There is not the capability to deal with them. Whether it is through the police youth aid whether it is through community organisations or whether it is through NGOs there is not the capability to deal quickly and effectively with that number of extra young people in our youth justice residences. I am sorry but I could not stand in this Chamber hand on heart and say that there are about 100 to maybe 120 of those 17-year-olds who are quite serious offenders and that our youth justice residences could cope with that number from the date of the time that this legislation comes into being. So—Hon Ruth Dyson: Well phase it in.Hon ANNE TOLLEY: That is right. As I have said before the youth justice age is under consideration by Cabinet. It is under careful consideration as to how that might be phased in if at all and no decisions have been made at this stage. To just plonk an SOP down and say that From the time this bill is enacted it is going to happen." is headline-making and it might make people feel good but I can tell you it will not have the effect for those 17-year-olds that the genuine mood of this House wants to achieve. So that is the first thing.I make the point that we are extending that age of care quite carefully. This bill represents that first change up to the 18th birthday. We believe that we can manage that effectively but beyond that we have already signalled we want to create that right to remain in care up to 21 and that will be phased in. That is in the second piece of legislation and we will show some indication of when that will be phased in when we believe we are capable of providing the sort of support that these young people need.There is no point in legislating for stuff that we cannot deliver. And it is not just a question of money; it is a question of capability and it is a question of effectiveness because we have a system in place now that is not delivering. We have got to change that and we have got to change it from the ground up. Quick headlines are not going to change those kids' lives.Secondly I want to deal with the issue of publishing the young people's views. Look I understand the desire to see that this is truly happening—I genuinely understand that. All I can say is that this bill is not the appropriate one to do that in. The next bill is the appropriate one to show how those young people's views are in place when we have that much broader piece of legislation that shows what those major changes are going to be. If you want to get an idea of that I have already made available I think four possibly five Cabinet papers that show the sorts of changes we are proposing to make in that second piece of legislation. I hope to have that in the House by the end of the year and I am happy to provide full briefings on that legislation to anyone who wants it.The third point in SOP 248 is around the point that the previous speaker Poto Williams talked about. I do accept that it is hard to understand why you would make a change like that without that broader aspect of how it is actually going to work in practice. Let me assure you that I have not proposed that change lightly—the Government is not proposing that change lightly and we do understand that it is a significant change. First of all research evidence and overseas experience show—and actually our own social workers themselves know—that too many more of these young children today are presenting with higher and more complex issues that cannot be solved by social workers alone. We need that multidisciplinary approach—many professionals sitting around and working together to help children young people and their families.To give some examples of what might be possible by making that change: for instance we are talking with a large number—and Child Youth and Family already has six contracts I think with iwi that are wanting to take and are taking more and more responsibility for dealing with their tamariki. I can see that there could be the possibility of working with capable iwi that have the capacity to actually put that process into practice themselves. It could be delegated to appropriately qualified people within an iwi to work with their tamariki. That is a possibility.There is also a possibility of working with some of our very well-qualified NGO providers that have qualified social workers themselves whom we may wish to contract with in terms of some of those issues. Again as I say we might have a multidisciplinary team where we have paediatricians child psychologists hospital social workers etc. all working together and one of them might make the application. That is the sort of thinking behind this change. The Social Services Committee has strengthened some of the oversight around that. All of that has to be published in a way that the public can access so they can see who these people are who are having these delegated powers. I do appreciate that some of this is quite high level ahead of the operating practices. That does make it difficult and those are the right questions for people to be asking.As I say I think that the select committee has done a good job on this bill. It is the first bill with just a few changes. I am hoping to have the major legislative change that we are proposing in the House by the end of the year. I do thank the select committee and members of the House for their attention to these kids who really need major changes to the way the State takes responsibility for their lives to ensure that they can live full lives."