Cosgrove Clayton: Taxation (Annual Rates Returns Filing and Remedial Matters) Bill — In Committee 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Cosgrove Clayton: Taxation (Annual Rates Returns Filing and Remedial Matters) Bill — In Committee 
[Sitting date: 18 September 2012. Volume:684;Page:5340. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour) 
: 
 I want to pick up where my colleague David Parker left off— 
Maggie Barry 
: God it’s like Clayton’s greatest hits—he’s always on his feet. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —sorry was there a funny noise over there—and that is in respect of the— 
Dr Rajen Prasad 
: Chattering classes. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Yes the chattering classes. Sorry it was that gracious member Maggie Barry I forgot—the gracious member. What I would like to ask the Minister in the chair the Hon Nathan Guy is this. I could not find—it may exist—in the regulatory impact statement or in the report back any quantification of the saving in compliance costs in both the parts and clauses that we have already processed and in Part 4 particularly clause 137 which I think was the clause that Mr Parker was referring to. Under Mr Parker’s argument—I believe he is correct—actually against accounting principle and advice the late payment even a minor late payment by a small to medium sized enterprise or business will incur GST. So on that basis that is going to be a compliance cost for small business. 
I would like to ask the Minister—he might like to interrupt me and take a call—where in the legislation or the regulatory impact statement there is a quantification of the compliance costs that will be saved from having this piece of legislation. Is there an estimate? We are told— 
Hon David Parker 
: The fiscal cost to small business. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: And what is the fiscal cost of clause 137 and other clauses to small business? 
It may be and I would also like an answer to this that the Minister for Small Business the Hon John Banks has provided a report a Cabinet paper or whatever to this Minister on the issue of compliance costs because of course the Minister for Small Business has the Small Business Advisory Group or task force—whatever it was called; we set it up when we were in Government—and part of that group’s mandate is to recommend to the Hon John Banks the Minister for Small Business where savings can be made and compliance costs reduced. Given that we now have a proposition before us in clause 137 that against accounting principles against private sector accounting advice and against advice that said that late payment of penalties should be zero-rated we now have a GST impost on that. So can the Minister tell us one how much this bill will save small to medium sized enterprises; two can he quantify it; and three what is the negative fiscal impact on small to medium sized enterprises of clause 137? 
Would Minister Guy like to proffer an answer? I will let him finish his glass of water. No. Silence—silence. So either the Minister does not know—and hey nobody knows everything except Maggie Barry—or the Minister could take some advice. He could turn to his right and ask his officials. 
In the regulatory impact statements and there are a number of them—a whole host of them—there does not appear to be any attempt to quantify what the nature is of the saving in compliance costs that this legislation will render unto small to medium sized enterprises or business as a whole. 
Hon David Parker 
: It increases them. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: My colleague makes the point. Of course that we now know and we have received no argument to the contrary from the chief whip who in his own lifetime and in this Chamber in the last hour is the resident expert on this legislation. So if the Minister does not know could Maggie Barry John Hayes or the chief whip tell us how much increase in compliance costs clause 137 will have on small— 
Michael Woodhouse 
: None. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: None? None. Oh none he says. Well if that is the case could the Minister with his officials concur? Is there any evidence? Or is this another one of the chief whip’s attempts? He attempted about half an hour ago to wax eloquent and was wrong on the nature of this bill in Part 3. So now we are going to rely on and every small to medium sized enterprise in the country is going to hang on the word of the chief Government whip that there will be no increase in compliance costs for your small business or your medium sized businesses—none. 
Dr David Clark 
: He’s pitching to be Minister for Small Business. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Maybe he is pitching to be Minister for Small Business that is true. Mr Woodhouse might well be. There could well be—I do not know I cannot see into the future—a vacancy opening up in that portfolio real quick. It will be real quick I suspect. So all we have got tonight is Mr Woodhouse the chief Government whip who is not the Minister and who does not have access to the advice. Every small to medium sized enterprise in the land can rest easy because Mr Woodhouse has said that there is no increase in compliance costs from either clause 137 or this legislation. So I invite colleagues especially those from Dunedin to write that quote of Mr Woodhouse’s down etch that into the memory because that will come back to haunt him. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: I look forward to the haunting. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: He looks forward to it he says. Well so do we because we have had no report from the Minister for Small Business—if there is one that exists. 
I know Mr Banks is a tad preoccupied with other matters and in fairness may not have been able to sign off said report from the Small Business Advisory Group. He may not have remembered to sign it off. He may not have remembered to ask. He may not have remembered that he does have a Small Business Advisory Group. He may have signed it—[ 
Interruption 
] Well indeed. He may have signed off the advice from the Small Business Advisory Group and it could well be wrong. Therefore the Minister in the chair may have refused to have read it in case maybe it was wrong but he will take Mr Banks’ word for it that all is well in small to medium sized enterprise land. So every small to medium sized enterprise in New Zealand will hang on the word of the chief Government whip that this legislation and clause 137 will in no way increase their compliance costs. 
Hon David Parker 
: That must be wrong. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: And that must be wrong. But I know that they will all be sleeping easy in their beds tonight and as they awake tomorrow morning and proceed to the computer the ledger or the journal to do their tax they will know that this change—against accounting advice against accounting principle—will in no way impinge on their fiscal position or on the hours they spend doing their tax return. It will in no way complicate their entrepreneurial lives one iota. 
Well all I would like from the Minister in the chair—and I see it is now the Minister of Commerce Mr Foss who is probably far more qualified than the last two invisible folks we have had as Ministers in the chair Amy Adams and Nathan Guy—is that maybe he could turn to his officials and actually ask and verify or quantify for us the compliance impact of this clause. We will try again shall we? Would the Minister like to answer the question? No. The silence is deafening. The silence is deafening. 
So we are paying these guys a quarter of a million bucks to sit in a chair so that he can do the crossword or sudoku or whatever it is. A quarter of a million dollars to sit there and throughout this taxation debate which has gone on since about 5.30 I do not believe that there has been one call apart from the initial call from Peter Dunne from any Minister to answer any of the questions on this legislation. There have been a lot of interjections—a lot of interjections—and a bit of banter and a bit of fun from the other side but not one answer to any question. 
Although colleagues I did make a breakthrough. Peter Dunne was in the chair and I asked him whether I could ask a question of the officials. The officials gave me a very diligent answer. I am gratified for that. But the officials I wager are not sitting there on a quarter-of-a-million-buck salary with a warrant with a ministerial office and with a BMW to boot. 
So the question is if the Minister is not prepared to answer any questions what is he here for? Could we give him a night off? Could he take an early shower? Maybe it would be a bit more productive. There have been serious issues raised throughout this legislation. Maybe he could go and have a wee lie-down and a wee kip and a nice little tot of whisky and that would be far more productive than sitting here pretending to be sort of a granite statue. Or maybe he could just stand up and say “I am not prepared to answer any questions.” or “We didn’t answer any on Parts 1 2 3 or 4 and we will not answer any on Part 5 so give up.” We will not give up but that would tell the New Zealand people exactly what they are paying him a quarter of a million bucks for: to do his crossword have a look at tomorrow’s menu or the breakfast menu or whatever it is or work out the diet— 
Dr Rajen Prasad 
: Shopping list. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —or work out the shopping list. 
This is actually serious stuff—serious stuff. I have been a small-business person. A very limited small business it was and reasonably successful but pretty limited. I had the luxury and the resources to put all the receipts into a briefcase hand it to the accountant and say: “Can you untangle spaghetti junction and make sure I comply with my obligations?”. The truth is that for most small to medium sized enterprises it is the other half—either the husband or the wife—who sits there at night under dim light doing the Government’s work for it working out the GST the provisional tax and all these things. I would have thought that we could do something in this legislation to give them back a couple of minutes of their life—maybe an hour—because if you put a dollar rate on that a dollar value on how many hours they spend behind the desk as opposed to in the workshop or behind the counter growing the business that is actually a real cost to a small business. They cannot charge out their hourly rate to do the Government’s work for it. They have just got to do it. They have just got to eat it and take it. So I would have thought that at the very least they require some sort of basic assurance or explanation. 
Mr Goldsmith has written a few books on this sort of thing I suspect. He might be able to give us some assurance. Somebody from the Finance and Expenditure Committee—Mr Hayes I am sure who is a resident expert on many things might be able to give us an assurance in respect of compliance costs and fiscal impact. Maggie Barry? No. We will move on. So they are the questions before the Minister.