Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Helensville): Thank you Madam Chair for the opportunity to speak in relation particularly to the subject of courts within the justice portfolio. I refer of course to the Estimates process and particularly the discussion that I had along with other members of the Justice Committee—myself not being a permanent member thereof but attending for the purpose of that hearing—with the Minister of Justice Andrew Little. I'd like to touch on a couple of key points in particular. One is the relationship between the Parliament and the courts. I'll be using the three-strikes rule and its application as an example within that and some thoughts that the Minister has around mechanistic sentencing" as he describes it. So that's the first area that I will be discussing. The second is the discussion about having a plan for reform or a lack thereof in relation to targets being set or rather not being set in the justice sector.Before I get on to that I'd like to mention at least in passing the fact that what's not being said throughout this process is really in relation to courts reform that will improve the timeliness of decision making. That would be the first place that this Government should start if it is serious about its stated goal of reducing the population of the prisons by 30 percent. That would be a relatively easy win at least on the remand side and so I encourage the Government and the relevant Minister in particular to give some thought to that. Also as a footnote but very relevant to the discussion in the justice sector and particularly again on the subject of courts I'd like to recommend to the Government that they continue—and indeed extend—the alcohol and other drug treatment courts. I think it's widely acknowledged around this House and indeed by those in the sector that these have been very successful on the trial basis where they're currently implemented. I acknowledge the work of the previous Government but also Judge Lisa Tremewan for her leadership in that regard getting those under way. I've seen them in operation myself. I've gone to visit them. I do commend to the Government—indeed implore them—to roll out what is needed by way of funding and resources to extend those throughout the country.So speaking as I say on the subject of the relationship between the Parliament and the courts it's probably more in sorrow than in anger that I note some of the comments of the Minister for Courts at that hearing—in particular the false choice that was made between having people in prison who have offended as against completing rehabilitation. Of course it's a false choice because it's the very opportunity that we have through placing people who should be in prison for the sake of the wider community and also for their sake in the sense that they can receive the rehabilitation while they are detained at Her Majesty's pleasure. So I would challenge the Government not to be ideological on the subject of imprisonment and actually view it as a genuine opportunity to reform lives for their good and indeed for the good of the whole community.Speaking to the subject of the relationship between Parliament and the courts I was seeking to make the point through a series of questions to the Minister for Courts that while he is of course correct in saying that Parliament speaks to the courts through legislation that doesn't mean that we should not set strict boundaries in terms of what the community's expectations are—that is the community whom we represent here in the House of Representatives. Indeed it is precisely because of our democratic mandate to make laws and not apply them that we must be mindful of our role in directing the courts to appropriate sentencing and indeed criminal procedure in general.The three-strikes law it is well accepted has been applied in a way that I would say is unexpected to use perhaps a euphemistic phrase for the situation that has arisen whereby manifestly unjust exceptions have in fact become the rule. Statistically that is the case; certainly in the case of subsequent-strike murders every single one has seen that exception invoked. So I would challenge the Minister of Justice to think about how law reform could be made—far from scrapping that programme as he has indicated that he would like to do notwithstanding that he was stopped by a coalition partner but actually to give serious thought to how that law could actually be applied as Parliament intended and what he could say to the courts again through legislation to achieve that.Finally in my brief remaining time I would encourage the Minister to get serious about setting targets and not simply set up a process of review to inform the fact that there are targets."