Coleman Jonathan: Estimates Debate — In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeColeman Jonathan: Estimates Debate — In Committee[Sitting date: 31 July 2013. Volume:692;Page:12141. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Defence):I feel very lucky that I have come down to the Chamber and happen to be here because that was a speech that needs knocking back. It was a speech that quoted many things out of context. It was a sad speech actually from a once-good Minister and a once-good member of Parliament who has frankly seen much better days. Frankly it was a shabby—Hon Phil Goff: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but since he has questioned my integrity and what I quoted I seek leave to table the entire transcript of the estimates hearing before the Foreign Affairs Defence and Trade Committee a couple of weeks ago.The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Hon Phil Goff: Secondly I seek leave to table the document from the Auditor-General that makes the points about the drop in morale and increase in attrition resulting in reduced capability.The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: It was a sad speech because that member continued to quote selectively from the select committee transcript and he made many points that actually were refuted at the select committee itself.Hon Phil Goff: The Minister said I was correct. It’s in the transcript.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I think what this man is doing is continuing to undermine the morale of our troops.Hon Phil Goff: No no this Government has done that.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: The fact that now he will not let me speak and he is determined to try to shout me down actually proves the point. Phil Goff is no longer a member who deals in facts and that is very sad. What he said there was that the Government has cut funding in defence. That is actually incorrect. We had this debate at the select committee. It is absolutely true. If anyone goes away and reads it they will find that Phil Goff was taking figures out of context and he was twisting them. In actual fact there was not a cut.When we talk about the numbers in the Defence Force Phil Goff knows full well that there was a defence white paper in 2010 and that it looked at the priorities that the Government set for defence and it looked at the force configuration that is needed. The number of 8500 people across the three services that we have full time is actually the number that is needed to act on the Government’s priorities so for him to continue to make out that there have been deliberate cuts in numbers to save money is plain wrong.The other thing that he continues to state is that there are issues around the training of troops in Afghanistan. He mentioned specifically Lieutenant Colonel Brett Wellington who took the stand and said that our people were well trained in Afghanistan on that crib mission when he took command. It is a bit sad really that Phil Goff is out there trying to stir up trouble exploiting the deaths of soldiers like Private Ross and Corporal Hughes to make political points because he knows that many of the facts he is quoting—or so-called facts—are absolutely incorrect.He was talking there about the Defence Force order that listed journalists alongside extremist groups and foreign intelligence services but what he forgets to tell you is that for the whole time he was Minister of Defence that order was there and that that order was signed by the Labour Government. So anything you hear from Phil Goff you have to know that he is a sad disillusioned member who frankly at his time of life and at his trajectory in his career should be leaving. What I will tell you here—Darien Fenton: Now he’s started being nasty. Here he comes “Mr Nasty”.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: Darien Fenton calls me “Mr Nasty”. Well that is an interesting one. What I will tell you is look all defence forces internationally have faced challenges across the Western World. We have been operating within fixed baselines. We have a plan that has actually moved resources from the back of the office to the front line. We have been funding troops and we have been funding capabilities—just like Tony Ryall has been doing in health—and it has actually been incredibly successful.What are we doing? We are bringing new capabilities to the front line: new helicopters we are opening a new SAS training base—Hon Phil Goff: Oh come on. Come on I ordered and paid for those.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: —we are funding the operation of those. Oh it is all Phil Goff again. Here he goes. Phil Goff says he paid for them; it was not the taxpayer. These are the rantings of a sad has-been. He knows it has all gone. He knows he will never be a Minister again. It has all disappeared. But I think it is time that Phil Goff started to back our people because there are two versions of the truth: there is Phil Goff’s version and there is what actually goes on at the front line with our defence people. If you talk to defence people they will tell you that it has been a period of change but they are very focused on the future.It is sad really because there was once a time when Labour took a bipartisan approach with National on defence and security matters but now it seems that Labour members are soelectorally desperate that they will grasp any opportunity to try to make political hay. I am especially disappointed in Phil Goff. When you see the Government Communications Security Bureau legislation Phil Goff knows that that is legislation the Government actually needs to push through for the security of New Zealanders. He has been a Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade and he has been a defence Minister yet he weakly sits back and chooses to play politics. He plays politics with everything.If you look at the Corporal Hughes case that he quotes which was a very sad case in Afghanistan and which is subject to a suppression order Phil Goff tells Parliament that the Government has suppressed the court of inquiry. I would love to release in public the full text of that court of inquiry but as Phil Goff knows—Hon Phil Goff: Invite me to and I will.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: Well I invite you to release it but you will be breaking the suppression order Phil. You will be breaking the law and I very much hope that Phil Goff will be held answerable.Hon Phil Goff: I see but you’d love to release it.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I would love to release it because it would show what really went on. The problem with Phil Goff is that he continues to dance on the graves of our dead soldiers and that is a disgrace.Hon Phil Goff: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. For the Minister of Defence to accuse me of dancing on the graves of dead soldiers more particularly since I have lost a member of my family in Afghanistan is disgraceful and despicable. I take offence. I ask you to ask him to withdraw that comment and apologise for making it.The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson): Thank you Phil Goff. I understand the situation and I would ask the Minister to withdraw that comment.Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I withdraw and apologise. But this is very much the point. Phil Goff can stand there calling me a liar and a person of low integrity. I am happy to accept that from him because this is a robust parliamentary environment. But once you start telling the truth about Phil Goff he gets very upset. He gets very very upset; he cannot handle it. He talks about attrition in the Defence Force. I can tell you that attrition in the Defence Force is lower than it was at its peak under Labour when Phil Goff was defence Minister. Morale in the Defence Force is higher than it was at its worst when Phil Goff was defence Minister.I would be very happy to work with Phil Goff because Phil Goff is actually not a bad guy. You saw him up in Honiara last week. We had a good discussion. To be honest we have robust debates in here but I just wish he would be a bit more bipartisan. I wish he would back our people in Afghanistan. I wish he would not be totally trying to undermine people all the time and undermining the Defence Force. Frankly in the end it does not reflect well on Phil Goff. We know—and Phil Goff secretly will agree—that both of our parties want what is best for the Defence Force. We know that our people do an excellent job. I wish our Labour colleagues wouldactually get behind our people in the Defence Force because personnel tell me that they are sick of hearing of Phil Goff’s rubbish.It has been a time of change in the Defence Force but the Defence Force is going forward. It does not need politicians constantly trying to undermine the very good work our people have done in the Solomon Islands in East Timor in Afghanistan in the Sinai in Korea in South Sudan. We need the Labour Party to actually back the National Government in defence policy and to take a constructive approach looking forward. So Phil Goff my message to you is do not distort the facts and do not quote selectively from that select committee report. Just tell us what your Government would do differently because I know that actually your Government would not respond to these challenges any differently. The fact is that morale now is a lot higher in the Royal New Zealand Air Force than when you cut the Skyhawks and the Strike Wing back in 2000.Hon Phil Goff: Remember you promised to bring them back. Have you?Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I have never made any such promise.I can tell you that we have an excellent Defence Force. We have great people. The Labour Opposition needs to shut up and listen during these debates and get up and make some positive contributions when we are talking about defence because we have got very good people there. The future is good for defence. The Government totally backs the New Zealand Defence Force. The feedback I am getting is that our people in defence are looking to the future and looking to make a very strong worthwhile contribution to New Zealand’s future.Vote agreed to.