6. Question No. 6—Social Development and EmploymentRICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Green) to the Minister for Social Development and EmploymentQuestion No. 6—Social Development and Employment6. RICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Green) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Has she read the analysis in the Welfare Expert Advisory Group's 2019 report that There is little evidence in support of using obligations and sanctions (as in the current system) to change behaviour; rather there is research indicating that they compound social harm and disconnectedness"; if so what specific evidence if any has she seen that benefit sanctions support people into employment?Hon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment): Yes I did read that in 2019 and I've also looked into the empirical evidence in New Zealand between 2017 and 2023. During this time the number of people on the jobseeker benefit increased by 70000 or 57 percent which included periods of prolonged labour shortages. During the same time the use of sanctions nosedived from 60588 to 25329 or a decrease of 58 percent. Our Government believes this demonstrates that sanctions are a necessary part of the tools needed including more proactive support to motivate people to take the steps needed to shift into work. Sanctions are also about enforcing the basic responsibility to fulfil obligations if you are being supported by taxpayers.Ricardo Menéndez March: Why is she choosing to ignore the research that shows sanctions do not support people into employment and instead conflate correlation with causation when it comes to the so-called empirical evidence she quoted?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: This side of the House is clear that there must be mutual obligations rights and responsibilities. Just as the Ministry of Social Development will provide support and assistance job seekers who fail to hold up their end of the bargain should face some consequences.Ricardo Menéndez March: Is it easier or harder for someone to find suitable employment when they have lost half of their benefit and fall behind on rent food debts and bills?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: That's why we've introduced a traffic light system. We want people to be really clear about where they are whether they're at green orange or red so they don't lose any entitlement.Mike Butterick: What recent commentary has the Minister seen on the use of benefit sanctions to change behaviour?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: I did agree with the comments made on Newstalk ZB in Wellington on 15 August that were "When it comes to sanctions I'll tell you what especially for the younger ones particularly … under 20[s] [and for] the teenagers hitting the workforce I think those sanctions straight out of school … are a good idea." I would like to thank Labour MP Greg O'Connor for his endorsement and for confirming that common sense hasn't been completely extinguished from the Labour Party.Ricardo Menéndez March: Why has she been unable to substantiate and produce evidence that sanctions support people into employment and instead continues referring to contributions on talkback radio and conflating correlation with causation?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: It's really simple—and that's why I was pleased to support another colleague's common-sense approach to this. This side of the House believes that there should be rights and responsibilities obligations—and those obligations are pretty simple work obligations; to be available for work to look for work—and consequences when they don't. I would add that we have seen in July an increase in the number of work exits from a year ago. So I'm confident that what we're doing is working.Ricardo Menéndez March: Does she stand by her answers to supplementary questions last sitting week when she said that caregiving is work and if so will she guarantee that caregivers will not be subject to work obligations and sanctions under the traffic light system?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: There will be work obligations for those on the jobseeker benefit. There may be some conditions or capacity that is assessed for those with health conditions and disabilities. But where there are work obligations our expectation is that they are fulfilled."