2. Māori Development—Wage Gap Employment Rate and Ministerial ResponsibilityKELVIN DAVIS (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and EmploymentMāori Development—Wage Gap Employment Rate and Ministerial ResponsibilityKELVIN DAVIS (Deputy Leader—Labour): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. When this question was lodged it was directed to the Minister for Māori Development whose responsibilities include numerous pieces of legislation and policies that impact upon Māori economic well-being. On this issue in particular Speaker's ruling 194/4 says: Ministers have a responsibility to the House and through the House to the country to account for the public offices they hold." The question asks for his view on the wage gap that affects Māori and it is his view that my constituents and Māori around Aotearoa are interested in not the view of the Minister to whom the question has been redirected. He has responsibility to this House to give a view on this critical issue for Māori.Mr SPEAKER: I think the summary of that point of order is that the member is objecting to the transfer. Can I refer the member to two Speakers' rulings that have guided me in this regard. Speakers' ruling 167/5 says that Ministers not only have a right to determine who will answer but in fact have a duty to pick the Minister who can most responsibly answer. I also refer the member to Speakers' ruling 168/1 which says that the Government has the right to transfer questions but if it was doing so in a way to dodge the issue then the member might have a point. In this case I think the justification for the transfer is clear to me. The member can proceed to ask his question; if he prefers not to we will move straight to question No. 3.CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I suspect it is well too late to do anything about it in this case because the transfer has gone ahead and I suspect it will be the Minister of employment answering the question. But the issue comes when there is for example a population Minister who represents an advocacy agency effectively because almost any question to the Minister for Māori Development will overlap with the responsibilities of another Minister. Therefore about the only question that we could lodge to the Minister that we could guarantee he would have to answer would be "Does he stand by his statements?" or "Does he have confidence in his department?" and any indication from us of the topic that we wish to question him on therefore leaves open the possibility for transfer. So I wonder whether at some point you could consider—there are a limited number of ministerial portfolios that would be in this situation and the Minister for Māori Development is one—whether there is a way that Opposition members can lodge questions to that Minister and be clear that it is going to be that Minister who is answering them because almost anything else gives rise to a potential transfer. Mr SPEAKER: I thank the member for his point and I did take particular interest and it was my final decision as to whether this question could be transferred. I was conscious of the very point the member is making now. In fact in my time as Speaker on two occasions I have refused transfers because I thought they had not got to the point the member was trying to get to with those particular questions and I suspect those are the only two times that has happened in probably the last 20-odd years in this Parliament. I look at this matter very carefully. I think the way forward is that if the member really wanted to direct it to a particular Minister he could have done so with a different wording of that question. I advise all members that as they are formulating their thoughts on questions if they want to seek any advice at all from the Clerk of the House that is probably their best option. 2. KELVIN DAVIS (Deputy Leader—Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment: Does he believe it is a sign of success that after nine years of this Government the wage gap between Māori and Pākehā now sits at $213 a week?Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Finance) on behalf of the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment: No we are not happy. We will not be happy until there is no gap in wages between Māori and Pākehā and indeed other groups as well. That is why the Government is focusing on a range of initiatives to increase training and skills for young Māori particularly enrolments and graduations in tertiary education programmes like Grow Kaikohe in Northland as well for the Māori "neets" in areas like Northland and a range of programmes that will ensure that this gap continues to close. Tell you what what we will not be doing is putting a tax on regional—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! We do not need to go there. Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Where a question is transferred is there some obligation on the Minister to whom it is transferred to be the person who answers the question? The Minister to whom the question was lodged is in the House but the Minister whom the Government has transferred it to is not in the House so the case for saying that the Minister to whom it was transferred to is in a better position to answer is significantly weakened. Hon Simon Bridges: Speaking to the point of order—Hon Members: Sit down. Hon Simon Bridges: No I will not sit down. Speaking to the point of order I note that that point—[Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! This is a point of order and I expect it to be heard in silence. Hon Simon Bridges: Speaking to the point of order I say it is ultimately very simple. The Minister for Māori Development does not have responsibility for the wage gap that the member is asking about; the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment does. That is why it was transferred. Then who answers if that Minister is away is entirely for the Government. [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! I appreciate the points raised by both members. This issue I canvassed with the two Speakers' rulings I referred to earlier. If a decision is made to transfer then it is the Government's decision as to whom it transfers that to and as I pointed out earlier I think the Government must accept it has a responsibility to give it to the Minister whom it thinks can best answer the question that has been asked. Kelvin Davis: Can he confirm that this wage gap represents a 30 percent increase since his Government came into power? Hon STEVEN JOYCE: No I cannot and it all depends on how the member counts it. But in terms of the gap I agree with the member that it is higher than we would like and the way we deal with that is to focus on ensuring that we have the tertiary education opportunities and success for young Māori so that this gap can be closed over time. It has never been closed before and I think that is something that we all in this House need to reflect upon. But I can report for the member that the number of Māori or the proportion of Māori aged 25 to 64 who now have for example a Bachelor's degree or above has increased from 9 percent in 2008 to 17 percent this year and that is good progress. Kelvin Davis: Nōna rānei te hē mō te rerekētānga o te pūtea ā-wiki ā Te Pākehā ki tā te pūtea Māori ā-wiki; ki te kore he aha te take kua hūkukuhia mai tenei pātai i Te Minita Whanaketanga Māori ki a ia i tēnei rā hai whakanui i Ngā Iwi Taketake o Te Ao?[Is the fault his for the difference between the Pākehā weekly sum of money and that of the Māori weekly sum of money; if not what is the reason for this question being shifted from the Minister for Māori Development to him on this day celebrating the indigenous peoples of the world?]Mr SPEAKER: The Hon Steven Joyce if he feels he has heard enough of the translation.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Everybody in this Government takes responsibility for the performance and success of New Zealanders. In the case of tertiary education skills and employment one of the key paths forward to close the income gap between Māori and everybody else is actually through employment and training. That is why it is appropriate that the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment takes a strong interest in the skills achievement of Māori.Marama Fox: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I was actually very interested in the answer from the Minister—Mr SPEAKER: Can I have the point of order please.Marama Fox: Well the point of order is that the lack of positive interjection from the left has inhibited my ability—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! I appreciate the point the member is making. There was significant interjection but I could still manage to hear the answer.Kelvin Davis: Does he believe that the huge wage gap between Māori and Pākehā has anything to do with the fact that the number of Māori who are now homeless under his watch sits at 14000?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The Government does not agree with that characterisation of the homeless population which the Opposition keeps running but is not correct. Nevertheless the key point is the achievement and participation in the economy of Māori of all ages. That is why it is important to lift education levels and as I say I am pleased to report to the member the number of Māori completing a Bachelor's degree each year has increased 64 percent since 2008. The number of Māori involved in programmes that we have—for example the Māori and Pasifika Trades Training Initiative—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Bring the answer to a conclusion.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: —is increasing. But again I think it is really important that a lot of Māori are in regional New Zealand and what you would not do is actually put on an additional tax to affect them.Kelvin Davis: He aha te take kei raro i a ia kua eke te nama o ngā Māori e kore mahi ana mā te 60 paihēneti ko te pai hēneti Māori e 11.1 engari 3.4 pai hēneti noa iho tā Te Pākehā?[Why is it that under his watch the number of unemployed Māori has climbed by 60 percent the Māori percentage being 11.1 but the Pākehā percentage being only 3.4?]Mr SPEAKER: Can I ask the member to repeat the question because the interpretation has not come through on my earpiece.Kelvin Davis: He aha te take kei raro i a ia kua eke te nama o ngā Māori e kore mahi ana mā te te 60 paihēneti ko te paihēneti Māori 11.1 engari 3.4 pai noa iho tā Te Pākehā?[Why is it that under his watch the number of unemployed Māori has climbed by 60 percent the Māori percentage being 11.1 but the Pākehā percentage being only 3.4?]Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I would have to check those figures for the member. Of course we have had the global financial crisis which has affected every community and every group. We have been getting improving results for Māori since 2012 but again the longer-term solution is increased educational achievement particularly in the tertiary and trades areas. I suggest the member has a look at those numbers and actually congratulates Māori on achieving those results.Kelvin Davis: As the Minister for Māori Development is responsible for guiding him and other Ministers on "policies affecting Māori wellbeing" is it he or the Minister for Māori Development who is failing Māori given the wage gap is growing as well as high unemployment?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: As I said to him earlier this is a job that the Government is very focused on: lifting achievement and participation of Māori in the New Zealand economy. That is why we are doing the regional growth programmes that is why we are doing Māori and Pasifika trades training and that is why we are ensuring that more Māori achieve in tertiary education including universities. I know the Opposition is blind to that because it hates anything that disproves its thesis but this Government is focused on achieving for Māori and delivering higher qualifications is one of the key ways in which that will be achieved.David Seymour: Has the Minister seen any reports of organisations such as the Iwi Leaders Forum endorsing the policy Partnership Schools/Kura Hourua?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I am not at all surprised that the iwi leaders group would support partnership schools because they are designed to get better results—for young Māori children in many cases—in different parts of the country. It is about trying new things and achieving things that this country has never been able to achieve before. But of course the Opposition wants to take us back to the bad old days when there was only one person who was allowed to teach people at schools."