12. Question No. 12—CorrectionsDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) to the Minister of CorrectionsQuestion No. 12—Corrections12. Dr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) to the Minister of Corrections: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that corrections funding announced yesterday was all operating allowance and not capital funding; if so does he stand by all of his own statements yesterday?Hon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections): I stand by the statements that—it was a significant announcement that we made yesterday and it was of a $1.9 billion investment—Hon Member: It was beyond you.Hon MARK MITCHELL: —in capital and—well if you give me a second I will answer it. You seem very excited and keen to hear the answer; why don't you just let me say it? So the $1.9 billion investment was in capital and operating expenditure for a corrections system that has received very little focus or attention from the previous Government whose only public safety target was to reduce the prison muster by 30 percent—Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. The claim that the Minister keeps repeating—as a Minister—is wrong in fact and could only be interpreted as deliberately misleading the House.SPEAKER: Look to be honest with you I didn't hear it said. There was a lot of noise coming from over here; I missed it.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Well he said it multiple times—that there was only one target of the previous Government. Anyone picking up the Estimates documents will see that there are dozens of targets for Vote Corrections and that the claim the Minister is making is not true.SPEAKER: And I'd ask the Minister to therefore refrain from making that statement.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. In fact he needs to correct it—he has given misleading and incorrect information to the House repeatedly.SPEAKER: Sorry no you can't ask for that. In the end it is a political exchange in here and that is part of that. I can only adjudge the reasonableness of anyone's statements. But it would be unreasonable for me to say that because the Opposition says you're wrong you must apologise or withdraw from it—that wouldn't be the way the place works. Can I please—Dr Tracey McLellan: Supplementary.SPEAKER: Tracey McLellan.Hon Kieran McAnulty: Hold on—he hasn't answered yet.Dr Tracey McLellan: What proportion of the funding announced—Hon Kieran McAnulty: On notice.SPEAKER: Wait on. Sorry—you're probably right actually. I've pulled you up too quick. So the Hon Kieran McAnulty is providing able assistance—thank you very much. Mark Mitchell do you want to answer that primary question without the political inferences—the primary question.Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well I've answered the substantive part of the question.SPEAKER: Well have another go.Dr Tracey McLellan: Everyone's confused.SPEAKER: No no no; everyone's—no no. Hang on. Wait on. Can I just say—hold on.Hon MARK MITCHELL: I stand by the significant announcement that we made yesterday of a $1.9 billion investment in capital and operating expenditure for a corrections system that has received very little focus or attention from the previous Government.Hon Kieran McAnulty: Point of order. Mr Speaker this was a question on notice. There is a higher standard required for those questions. The Minister has not answered or addressed the first part of this question.SPEAKER: Well I think he has so much as the previous question of a similar nature asked by the Leader of the Opposition got the answer from the Prime Minister which said that those matters are subject to the Budget. While the quantum might well be out there the split of that will clearly be announced when the Budget's announced. So I don't think it's an unreasonable answer from the Minister.Dr Tracey McLellan: What proportion of the funding announced is capital expenditure and what proportion is operating expenditure?Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well like the Prime Minister said the capital expenditure currently will not be disclosed because there are current negotiations sensitive negotiations—Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: He doesn't know.Hon MARK MITCHELL: —going on by Corrections in terms of the delivery of Waikeria Prison. It is completely commercially sensitive. And the Leader of the Opposition—it just goes to show just how little he knows in terms of being able to deliver Government—SPEAKER: No no—no no no. Sit down! Sit down! No the member will—Dr Tracey McLellan: What proportion therefore of the $1.9 billion of funding he announced yesterday is from the operating allowance?Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well I've been very clear about—the piece that we can talk directly to is the $78 million that we're putting into rehabilitation programmes for prisoners on remand. Anything to do with pay negotiations or commercial negotiations around capital projects on Waikeria is sensitive.Dr Tracey McLellan: When will the Waikeria upgrades he announced yesterday be delivered?Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well we've said that the first 500 will be delivered in the middle of next year. Then the additional 810 will be delivered towards the end of 2028.Hon Chris Bishop: Can the Minister confirm that the fiscal approach of the previous Government when it came to corrections funding was to believe that all the money came from Treasure Island?SPEAKER: No no—no; sit down. I've got to say—just a minute. I'm going to call the Hon Nicole McKee but I've got to say those sort of questions don't help the order of the House—at all.Hon Nicole McKee: To the Minister: does he agree that a well-funded corrections system is essential in supporting this Government's new and improved three-strikes law which will take serious violent and sexual offenders off our streets and keep New Zealanders safe?SPEAKER: Yeah I tell you what you can have a brief response. But the question itself—Hon Member: It's got nothing to do with the primary question.SPEAKER: —is not anything to do with the primary and so a brief response and then we're over.Hon MARK MITCHELL: Yes absolutely I agree with the member. Investing in the capacity and the welfare of the staff in our corrections service is completely aligned with what the three-strikes legislation is intending to do—SPEAKER: Good—that's excellent. That was a great answer—I meant only a great answer in its brevity.Dr Tracey McLellan: How much of the $442 million in operational savings is coming from scrapping programmes and how many of these programmes are in place to keep corrections staff safe?Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well the first thing I'd say is that one of my priorities as the incoming Minister was to make sure that we started to reduce the amount of assaults on our corrections officers—Hon Dr Megan Woods: Answer the question.Hon MARK MITCHELL: —who deserve—well part of the question was around the safety of our corrections officers so I'm going to answer that. You opened the door so I'll answer. One of my priorities as the incoming Minister was around corrections officer safety because we've seen an alarming rise under the previous Government of assaults on our corrections officers. The good news is that assaults on corrections officers are starting to reduce. In terms of programmes that is an operational decision for Corrections. But what I'd say to the members is that while we've got people inside the corrections system we're going to deliver programmes that give them meaningful life skills that give them the best shot of rejoining society and making a go of it.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr. Speaker. The member asking the question asked him whether any programmes that focused on the operational safety of corrections staff were being reduced. The overall thrust of the Minister's answer when you get down to it was that it's an operational matter for Corrections. That simply cannot be allowed to stand as an answer in this House. Ministers are accountable for operational matters to the House. It's well-codified in Speakers' rulings and in the Standing Orders that you cannot give that as an answer to the House. You might be able to give that as an answer outside the House but when it comes to operational matters it is the Minister that is accountable to the House for those issues.SPEAKER: Yeah but I have heard numerous times in this House Ministers say That is an operational matter for which I don't have direct responsibility." So it's kind of one of those areas that I think you could take two different positions on. But I will ask the Hon Mark Mitchell to perhaps answer the question again.Hon MARK MITCHELL: Well what I'd say is that my main priority is the safety of our corrections officers. And so my expectation in corrections is that they enhance programmes and improve programmes to make sure that our corrections officers are safer.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Still no answer.SPEAKER: So as—well just before we finish the member can sit there and say that there was still no answer but when the Minister says his "expectation is" that is exactly the relationship between a Minister and a chief executive as the Prime Minister—and the former Prime Minister—well knows."