6. Freshwater Management—Water Quality of Rivers and LakesCATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) to the Minister for the EnvironmentFreshwater Management—Water Quality of Rivers and Lakes6. CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) to the Minister for the Environment: Does he stand by his statement that New Zealanders will have access to open honest information on the state of our rivers" with the Government's Clean Water package?Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): Yes. The first step we took on improving information on fresh water was establishing the Land Air Water Aotearoa (LAWA) national website which is jointly run with the Cawthron Institute and regional councils and which provides site-specific real-time data. The second step is our Environmental Reporting Act which took effect in 2016 which the member's party opposed. In April we will see the first domain report on fresh water produced independently by the Government Statistician and the Secretary for the Environment. The third step is the maps and website released as part of the Government's package which for the first time gives consistent information across New Zealand on all our rivers over 40 centimetres deep and lakes that are greater than 1.5 kilometres in perimeter totalling 54000 kilometres. Catherine Delahunty: How comfortable would he be letting his children swim at sites like the Manawatū one at Weber Road and many other sites that the LAWA website confusingly gives a thumbs up for swimming but also warns there is a toxic algae bloom? Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The Greens—like normal—exaggerate the risks from algae blooms. There has been only one example in New Zealand of anybody getting sick from an algae bloom and that was in my own electorate of Nelson. I think it is scaremongering on behalf of the Greens which will only result in discouraging people from getting out and enjoying a swim. The website that we have created specifically identifies those rivers where there is a risk from algae. That greatest risk is to small children or to dogs that may chew the algae. Barbara Kuriger: What would be the impact on a region like Wellington of adopting the alternative standard of rivers having to be within the tolerance of water quality 99 percent of the time? Hon Dr NICK SMITH: Well water monitoring by the regional council over the past summer every week shows that the Hutt the Ōtaki and the Ruamāhanga rivers each had only one exceedance of the guidelines and those were on days when the river was in flood. In respect of the Waikanae River every one of its tests was clear. Under the policy being advocated by the Opposition every one of those rivers in Wellington would be deemed unswimmable despite the fact that only those people with a lack of common sense would want to go swimming in a river in flood. We want a plan to improve our rivers but not an impractical plan that discourages New Zealanders from getting out and enjoying our great outdoors. Catherine Delahunty: Does he think it is confusing for the public including dogs and small children that a river can have a warning for the toxic algae bloom while still meeting this Government's standard of being safe for swimming? Hon Dr NICK SMITH: What I do know is that for the 9 years of the Labour Government supported by the Greens there was no information at all—no information at all. The new website provides good information—Catherine Delahunty: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order!Catherine Delahunty: I asked the Minister about whether he thought this information was confusing. I am not interested in his rant about the Labour Party.Mr SPEAKER: Order! But in the final part of the answer given by the Minister—Catherine Delahunty: Very hard to hear.Mr SPEAKER: When the member then rose to her feet the answer was definitely addressed in the final part. The member may not have heard it. Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I seek leave to actually table the recordings by the Wellington Regional Council of all the rivers in the Wellington region that show that the times when they were unswimmable were when they were in flood. Other than that—Mr SPEAKER: Is that information publicly available on the Wellington City Council website? Hon Dr NICK SMITH: No it is actually not. It is analysis that has been provided. Mr SPEAKER: I will take the member's word for it. Leave is sought to table that particular analysis. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled. Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Catherine Delahunty: Given that there is no up-to-date daily data on the LAWA website for freshwater sites for all of Northland Auckland Waikato and 30 other sites around the country how are people supposed to know whether they will get sick from swimming? Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The problem is that when our rivers go into major flood the E. coli levels go through the roof and the only party that is stupid enough in this Parliament to stand up and pretend that it can somehow stop rivers flooding is the Green Party and I just make a plea that it might get someone with a little bit of science or practical experience so this Parliament can debate sensible policy. Catherine Delahunty: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked about why there was no up-to-date daily data. It was a specific question not an opportunity for a personal attack.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The answer was certainly direct and political. I think on this occasion the member has a point. I do not think the question has been addressed and I will invite the member to ask the question again.Catherine Delahunty: Given that there is no up-to-date daily data on the LAWA website for freshwater sites for all of Northland Auckland Waikato and 30 other sites around the country how are people supposed to know whether they will get sick from swimming on that day?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: It is not practical to provide information every single day on every single stretch of the 54000 kilometres of river. I am already getting criticism from regional councils that the Government's requirements for more information are going to impose costs on ratepayers. But where the Green Party is wrong is that if people apply a little bit of a modicum of common sense and do not swim when rivers are in flood and follow the advice that is now more comprehensive than has ever been provided Kiwis can get out and enjoy a good swim in the bulk of New Zealand's rivers.Catherine Delahunty: Will regional councils get an immediate increase in Government funding to ensure that better data collection and monitoring is undertaken on rivers and lakes so that New Zealanders can make better decisions about when swimming in fresh water will make them sick?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: This Government has increased the investment in cleaning up our rivers by sixfold and actually under far tougher economic circumstances than when members opposite chose to spend diddly-squat on our rivers. In respect of the cost of monitoring yes there will be some cost for regional councils. The difference between this side and the Opposition is that we are being practical and realistic about it.Catherine Delahunty: Given how murky the information on the LAWA website is should people rely on the Ministry for the Environment website where many of the rivers only have data as up to date as 2014?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I would question that member holding—saying they cannot rely on an independent scientific institute like the Cawthron Institute in my home community in Nelson which is well reputed for providing independent environmental information and is responsible with regional councils for maintaining the information on the LAWA website. What I would say to the member is that before this Government there was no website no information no maps and that is where we have taken a substantial step forward.Catherine Delahunty: Considering he has insisted that New Zealanders use common sense when judging water quality why will he not take common-sense measures and stop dairy conversions and subsidise irrigation that will prevent pollution from dirtying our rivers rather than wasting our time with an incoherent clean water plan that the public cannot understand or make use of?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: Unless you adopt the sort of extreme position of for instance Mr Joy who wants to ban farm animals in New Zealand from 2050 then we need—[Interruption] That is true. That is what he said. We do not hold that position. We hold a position that says that actually New Zealand can have a strong growing agricultural sector and if we put an extra 56000 kilometres of fencing in this country can enjoy good water quality and families can enjoy a swim but they can also have a job and an income.Hon David Parker: Does the Minister understand that his proposed swimmable standard allows rivers to be categorised as swimmable despite effluent and nutrient pollution at levels that his own standard says cause nuisance slime growth?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The irony is that the 540 E. coli level of swimmability that is behind the Government's standards was set when that member was in the Cabinet room. It was set in 2003 with that very member's—Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was about slime not E. coli.Mr SPEAKER: I heard your question; I am not sure whether we are going to get the answer. I think as the best way forward—as it has now become disjointed because it was not an easy question—I am going to invite the member to ask the question again.Hon David Parker: Does he now understand that his proposed swimmable standard allows rivers to be categorised as swimmable despite effluent and nutrient pollution at levels that his own standard says cause nuisance slime growth?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The swimmability standard was set in 2003 by the previous Labour Government. What we have provided is a website that does not just include information on E. coli but also provides information on the level of algae where that is an issue—albeit with respect to lakes it is recorded as the algae level—with more comprehensive information than has ever been provided for New Zealanders.Hon David Parker: This is a publicly available document but it is 100 pages long. I seek leave to table the page of the standard that classifies as a "swimmable river" rivers that have nuisance blooms of periphyton—Mr SPEAKER: I need to know what the actual document is please.Hon David Parker: It is the document that the Minister released last week Clean Water and it is page 34 of the appendix.Mr SPEAKER: No; it is available to all members if they need to make reference to it."