Rich Katherine: Maori Television Service Bill — In Committee 
Rich Katherine: Maori Television Service Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:607;Page:5076] 
KATHERINE RICH (NZ National) 
: 
 It is quite interesting to stand here and debate Part 3 of the Maori Television Service Bill which will establish the Maori Television Service and spend approximately $55 million per annum at a time when in my home town seven of our 10 hospital theatres have been closed down because they do not have any money. 
John Carter 
: How many? 
KATHERINE RICH 
: Seven of our 10 hospital theatres have been closed down because we do not have any money to do operations. 
John Carter 
: Is that recent? 
KATHERINE RICH 
: It is just in the last couple of days. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. What has hospital wards operating got to do with Part 3 of the Maori Television Bill? There used to be some rules in this place about relevance of debate. It is bad enough that we have the debate on every part as a second reading debate. Now it appears to be a second reading debate about a completely different bill. I know that the member has not been here very long but there are some rules about relevance in the House. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I am ruling on the point of order. The member will keep to the part. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chair. It has been a convention if we are talking about conventions that members are allowed a lead-in to a debate. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Yes. The member has had that. 
John Carter 
: She has had only a few seconds Madam Chair. If you look at your clock you will have a better record of that than I. It is not unusual for a member to have some lead-in and then come to the bill. The member was talking about the money that has been spent. It is quite normal for that to happen. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member has had 2 minutes to do that. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Are you speaking to the same point of order Mr Mark? 
Ron Mark 
: No. It is a new point of order. There are those of us in the House who would have thought that that was quite spurious. I ask you to consider that— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Is the member calling the ruling spurious? 
Ron Mark 
: No. It would be very helpful if a man could be allowed to get two words in without a woman interrupting. I am looking at Jill Pettis. I know that it is a habit that is hard to get rid of but the member should try. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Points of order will be heard in silence. 
Ron Mark 
: My point is that we do note that the Committee stage is an important part of the debate. It is an opportunity for the Opposition to put its arguments against the various clauses and for the Government to respond in kind. I am a little concerned that the only contributions we have had from the Government in this debate are contained in points of order and I ask that members be advised that they should make their contributions as 5-minute contributions. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: That is not a point of order. 
Stephen Franks 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The Leader of the House spoke about the generality of the debate. I have given two speeches in this debate and on both occasions I addressed myself specifically to technical points and asked for guidance or comment from the Minister as I invariably do in the Committee stage on points that I believe are proper points of inquiry. The problem that I have if the Leader of the House is correct that in fact one should confine oneself only to those kinds of points is that there has been no response and that if one does that one actually makes a boring speech. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: That is a point of debate about Government members speaking or not speaking. A lot of members have spoken on this bill and will continue to speak on it. They do need to restrict those speeches to the part concerned. 
Stephen Franks 
: Madam Chairperson you did not let me finish my point of order. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: It is not a point of order. The member cannot raise a point of order about whether the Government participates. That is a point of debate. It is the Government’s decision. 
Stephen Franks 
: It would be very helpful if there were an indication that we were likely to get more than one speech per part which is provided for in the Standing Orders. It is at the discretion of the Chair. Those of us who endeavour to confine ourselves strictly to the technical clauses in the bill end up with our comments on the part as a whole never being heard because we simply get closed down. Given the concern of the Leader of the House about the way we are addressing the bill I invite him to consider that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I take the member’s point but the Chair is the sole judge of relevance. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: As I return to the point I was making as we stand in the Chamber and debate Part 3 it is a sad indication of this Government’s priorities that we are debating the Maori Television Service Bill at a time when seven out of 10 of the hospital theatres in my home city have been closed down due to lack of funding. Each month there are usually 20 operations for grommets; now there will be only 10. But getting back to Part 3 as I continue with my speech— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. You were distracted but the member has just carried on talking endlessly about grommets operations and hospital wards in Dunedin. That has nothing to do with Part 3. If she cannot speak on it I suggest that she leaves it to Stephen Franks who can speak on the details of the bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The Committee stage is the nuts and bolts stage. The bill is considered provision by provision—[ 
Interruption 
] There will be silence while I am on my feet and speaking. The bill is considered provision by provision to determine whether the details of the clauses are drafted properly and incorporate the principles of the bill as agreed to by the House. I refer members to Speaker’s ruling 88/3. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I understand that when there is a debate during the Committee stage if members refer to a part and the clauses within that part they are still allowed to make comments regarding those clauses. The point I was making during the debate on Part 3 of the Maori Television Service Bill is that it is a sad indication of the Government’s lack of concern about the real issues. It is setting up a television station at a time when seven out of 10 of our hospital theatres are being closed down. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Those are matters that should be addressed in the second reading. I have made a ruling on this matter as to relevance. I ask the member to continue. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Is this a new point of order? 
John Carter 
: Absolutely and that very question brings me to a second matter that I want to raise with you in a minute. I am concerned about the conduct of the Committee. You have correctly ruled that when there are points of order they are to be heard in silence. We often hear interjections from the junior Government whip. Indeed you just had to remonstrate with her and tell her to stay silent. You made the point that members were to be silent during points of order whereupon the Deputy Prime Minister then uttered an interjection across the Chamber. Also when Katherine Rich was standing and he wanted to raise a point of order he yelled out: “Sit down it’s a point of order.” It is not for him or the junior Government whip to run the Committee it is for you Madam Chairperson. We support you in doing so and so you should. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I thank the member for his assistance. He is absolutely right. This is about the third warning during the debate on this part on points of order being heard in silence and rulings being heard in silence. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: It is interesting to see the way members opposite have conducted themselves during the Committee stage of this bill. They have not liked many of the points we have raised in this debate. They have not liked us to mention names like “John Davy” or for us to say words like “Viaduct Basin”. They do not like mention to be made of any of the disastrous decisions the board has made in regard to the Maori Television Service. Government members have lost all signs of a sense of humour as they sit there with totally sombre sour faces. They do not like it one bit. 
In terms of Part 3 though there are some pretty interesting clauses. One of those clauses is clause 76A “Review of Act” which states: “(1) The responsible Ministers must as soon as practicable after the expiry of 5 years from the commencement day—(a) commence a review of the operation ...”. I would like to hear from the Minister whether he really thinks that that channel will be up and running in 5 years for a review to be undertaken. At the moment as it has taken a good 3 years just to get the legislation into the House as far as this I wonder whether when we turn on our television sets in 5 years’ time we will see any channel at all. Certainly the signs are not good. It is doubtful whether the channel will be watched by a large number of New Zealanders. Frankly I think that that clause should be reviewed and amended so that a review is done in 12 months’ time. In 12 months’ time the House will want to have some significant questions answered about the way the television channel has conducted its business in the interim. 
It is very interesting looking at the clauses that relate to the protection of trustees. There is a very long long clause that basically indemnifies all trustees from any liability any failure or any mistake made in terms of putting the bill in place. I am not surprised. Those who were to consider being trustees or directors would want every indemnification possible because the chances are that this thing will not work and if it does not work they will be in the gun.