Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:625;Page:20310] 
5.  
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: On what date did he find out for the first time there were problems in relation to Claire Austin’s employment at the Families Commission which culminated in her resigning from the Families Commission on 18 April? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)) 
 on behalf of the 
 Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: The Minister first became aware that there was a serious breakdown in the relationship between the chief executive and commissioners on 28 February. Between the end of February and 13 April the Families Commission was working with the Ministry of Social Development to try to resolve those issues. The Minister was first advised on 13 April that Claire Austin was leaving and that her departure involved a payout and that that payout was confidential. By then the commission and Claire Austin had reached a legally binding agreement. The Minister has made it clear to the chief commissioner that the commission has acted in a way that is not consistent with Government expectations on these issues. 
Judith Collins 
: When the Minister first knew of the problems at the Families Commission did he then or at any stage after that advise Mr Prasad that he must not authorise a secret golden handshake for the chief executive officer; if he did on how many occasions did he make his instructions known? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As I made clear in the answer to the primary question the first advice the Minister received on this was on 13 April by which time the payment was legally binding. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What measures has this Government undertaken to further the interests of New Zealand families in keeping with the mission of the Families Commission? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In addition to the initiatives such as the Working for Families package that the House was advised about on Tuesday let me briefly list five more. We have put in place a range of community-based services as part of the implementation of Te Rito or the New Zealand Family Violence Prevention Strategy; we have given financial assistance for advocates for children who witness family violence; through SKIP we have given parents raising pre-schoolers more support with positive parenting; the Active Movement initiative provides a range of physical activity options for under-5s; and from July the Ministry of Health will offer eligible primary schools the chance to apply for the free-fruit scheme whereby all students will get one piece of fresh fruit each day at their school. 
Judith Collins 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I seek your assistance in this matter. In the answer the Minister gave to my first supplementary question she intimated that the first that the Minister knew of the problem was in April yet in the first answer she gave she said it was in February. The question I asked was when he first knew of the problems at the Families Commission and this Minister said that it was in February; I then asked how many times did he go on to say there must not be any secret golden handshakes and she went on to say on behalf of the Minister that actually he did not know about that until April. Is she now saying on behalf of the Minister that at no stage did the Minister say there shall be no golden handshakes or is she simply saying that he did not really know until April? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. That is not a point of order. It is a matter of debate and I suggest another supplementary question. 
Heather Roy 
: Can he confirm that he knows the value of the previous chief executive officer’s golden handshake and that it exceeds $120000? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In accordance with section 152(1)(d) of the Crown Entities Act which was put in place by our Government precisely because of our dislike of confidential payments the House will be aware that the commission will need to record in its annual report “the total value of any compensation or other benefits paid or payable to persons who ceased to be members committee members or employees during the financial year in relation to that cessation …”. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is all very interesting to hear about that legislation and the policy but that answer had absolutely nothing to do with the question that the Minister was asked. She was asked a simple question as to whether the Minister knew the value of the golden handshake. She never addressed that in any way shape or form. She either does know or does not. She has to address that part of the question. And she was asked to deny whether the total value of that package exceeds $120000. She never addressed that part of the question either. The answer given was to some completely different question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. The answer did address the question in that it said that that information would be available under that provision in the legislation when the report is made to Parliament. The question is addressed in that sense so it is not correct to say that the answer did not address the question. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have ruled on that matter. If it is a different matter that is fine. 
Rodney Hide 
: It is a different matter. Are you ruling that when an MP asks the Minister a direct question as to whether the Minister knows something it is OK for him or her to say: “Well section 5 of the Public Finance Act says x y and z.” and you will rule that that addressed the question? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Because that particular section addresses the information that would be available. If the member does not like the way in which the Standing Orders are written at the moment I invite him to raise the matter at the Standing Orders Committee. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I listened to the Minister’s answer carefully although I have to say I did not hear everything because of other conversations going on. But it does appear to me that what she effectively said was: “I know the amount that’s been paid out but I’m not telling you.” That is what her answer amounted to. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order. 
Peter Brown 
: I am just asking whether that sort of answer to a question is acceptable. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It addressed the question—when that information would be available and under what provisions. So it addressed the question. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: How committed is the Government to the future of the Families Commission given this particular incident and also the fact that it was a United Future initiative? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The member is aware that the Families Commission was set up as a result of the negotiations with his party around the establishment of an MMP Government after the 2002 election. The proposal from the United Future party was a commission that would research the role function and nature of families to assist with tackling the social and economic cost of family breakdown. Our Government agreed to the establishment of that agency and is keen to see that it succeeds. The Families Commission has a comprehensive work programme aimed at promoting the interests of and advocating for New Zealand families. 
Judith Collins 
: When the Minister first knew of the problems at the Families Commission in February 2005 did he then or any stage after that advise Mr Prasad that he must not authorise a secret golden handshake to the chief executive officer; if he did on how many occasions did he make his instructions known? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As I said in the answer to the primary question the Minister was advised on 28 February that there was a serious breakdown in the relationship between the chief executive and the commissioner. At that time there was no suggestion of the departure of the chief executive. The Minister was advised on 13 April of her departure and was advised on that same day that that departure involved a payout and that it was legally binding and confidential. 
Judith Collins 
: What did the Minister mean when he said in Opposition: “What will stop this kind of thing happening again is a Government and a Minister determined to stamp out the culture of extravagance that has been allowed to flourish.”; and does he expect the House to believe that he meant that if one gave a golden handshake during his watch the most that would happen is that one’s pay rise might be delayed? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: He meant exactly what he said.