Goldsmith PaulHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you. Again I apologise to people who are tuning in and wondering how long this debate will go on. We're now over three hours and still on Part 3 because it is a detailed bill with an enormous number of complexities that we in Parliament—and this is the process that we're going through trying to reassure us or not that the Minister has got some clear justifications for what he's doing. So I want to look at clause 36 where it talks about Within 15 working days [of] receiving notice that … [an] application to initiate bargaining" has been approved. So this is about starting the process for a fair pay agreement which as we've said before once it's started cannot be stopped. The initiating union is required to identify and notify other unions and employers who it believes are likely to be covered by the fair pay agreement. Now I just wonder logically practically and logistically how on earth this is supposed to happen because the criterion being used is that reasonable efforts have to be made. I suppose my concern is that in reality it will mean only token efforts are applied in 15 days. I mean there's no way anybody can effectively figure out whether other unions are involved or employees are likely to be covered. I keep referring to the humble superette up in Hokianga with one or two employees. Now are we really saying that within 15 days the initiating union is going to sort of be able to get right across the country into the many nooks and crannies if for example it's in hospitality or cleaning? Hospitality I suppose is easier because at least you can go through the streets and see that there is a shop there. But when it comes to say cleaning the little mum and dad operator with two employees in Haast for example—and I was in Haast last week and talking to business owners who were at their wit's end around just trying to find employees let alone more regulation coming down the track. But if you're a little mum and dad cleaning operation in Haast for example the conceit or the pretence of this bill is that somehow within 15 days a union is going to scour the country and find all these little mum and dad operators and give them notice that there's going to be a fair pay agreement. We all know that that is just nonsense. The best endeavours will be—and it's given some indication in the legislation that what they might do is publish a notice in the daily newspapers. So I mean that will be of great reassurance to the little cleaning operator in Haast to know that there will be a public notice in the New Zealand Herald or in the Otago Daily Times because heck they've got nothing to do with their life. They can't get employees they're busy as all hell they're trying to make a living but the expectation is that they will be keeping an eye on the Otago Daily Times for any public notices as to fair pay agreements relating to cleaners. We all know that that's just nonsense. So it's an unrealistic expectation and it creates the near certainty that employers and employees who are caught by the proposed fair pay agreement won't be notified. The first thing they'll hear about it is when it actually comes into force and some labour inspector turns up on their doorstep and says "Oi you're not part of this. You're not paying the correct penal rates"—or whatever it is that's been agreed without their knowledge—"and you're going to face big fines." which we'll come to later. So please explain how on earth he thinks that within 15 days this great logistical exercise is supposed to occur and in any way does he believe that all the little employer operators—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): Order!"