Swarbrick ChlöeCHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): Thank you Mr Chair. If I may just in referring to these annual review reports out of the Justice Committee there are two things that I'd like to discuss in my contributions this afternoon.The first is around the priorities and targets for the justice sector as has been raised by the members particularly the discussion about reducing the prison population by 30 percent and the second is on the prioritisation of police responses which obviously there's been much media commentary on. To that effect it'll come as absolutely no surprise to the Minister that I have one area where I think there could be far better policy settings and therefore far better outcomes and efficacy to actually have policy in place which then results in far better investment and far better outcomes for all of it. And that is of course in the tweaks that are available to her to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. We have a breakdown from the New Zealand Drug Foundation which pulls apart the budget and estimates that we spend approximately four times more money on criminal prohibition of substances than we do on harm- or health-based interventions and approaches. And to give some context to the kinds of outcomes that this results in we know for example based on both police data but also the New Zealand Health Survey data that we have continued to have increasing seizure of for example cannabis crops. Yet cannabis consumption in this country has continued to increase to the effect that we now have 635000 New Zealanders per year consuming cannabis annually. Then we also have some of those harm- or health-based interventions the likes of Te Aro Oranga which I want to acknowledge the Government—having collaborated on it last term in particular—expanded but none the less it's not available across the whole country. It is of course the methamphetamine programme piloted actually initially in the final year of the then outgoing National Government which we have complete and comprehensive data on showing us that for every dollar invested we have a $3 to $7 return which is a 37 percent—if I believe correctly off the top of my head—reduction in criminal offending. So to that effect I just wanted to reflect on some of the questions that I've also asked the Minister through the parliamentary written questions. Here we have despite those changes to particularly section 7 of the Misuse of Drugs Act which of course formalised police discretion—we saw that sure there has been a decrease in the number of people who are going through the carceral system and ending up interacting with the police as a result but none the less those numbers and those figures do remain particularly high particularly when we're talking about cannabis. To that effect I think it would be useful to put on Hansard this afternoon that the number of people convicted of charges relating to possession or use of cannabis alone just last year was 1111 New Zealanders. Obviously I think it's really important to put that in the context again of the 635000 New Zealanders who do consume cannabis annually. We also see again related to that point around the Government's prison population aims—that's in response to my written question 11595 for those following along at home—that 180 New Zealanders were sentenced to imprisonment for cannabis possession alone just last year. So I guess my question to the Minister in relation to particularly the annual reviews here and as I've reflected on the policy settings which result in the types of investment that we make and therefore the outcomes that we get is: when do we stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? I totally totally acknowledge the fact that the Government has made some moves. I've worked with them very closely on them—the likes of that section 7 police discretion change. I know that the Minister is potentially going to bring up the fact that we had the cannabis referendum. Again we've had this debate many times over where we had a specific proposed regulatory regime for one substance and I think what that debate showed us is that the status quo is actually untenable because even those who were on the opposing side of that referendum were unwilling to say that people should continue to be ushered into the prison system into the criminal justice system as a result of that low-level drug consumption in particular. So my question to the Minister is: when will we see that shift away from this expenditure which is a waste of money? You know every single year now I continue to do these written parliamentary questions which show that we spend the better part of $1 million on sending out cannabis choppers into the skies. We seize more cannabis yet we continue to have those really high consumption rates. There are far better ways to do this. I know the Minister knows it. So I'm really interested to see and to hear where those priorities may lie particularly when it comes to the allocation of police resources and time and the opportunity to decrease our prison population.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice): I thank the member for her questions. Probably a couple things just to note at the outset which probably colour the way that I'm about to respond. First as the member's aware the Misuse of Drug Act is administered by the Minister of Health so no doubt she can answer some of those responses there. With respect to responsibilities for the police you'll be able to direct your questions to my colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen. Remand reduction: whilst not squarely within my portfolio I think it's useful just to touch on that because it is part of the broader justice sector priorities but she could probably ask a more pointed question to my colleague the Hon Kelvin Davis. Those things aside I think with respect to the discretion that was introduced—the section 7 discretion for those in possession of cannabis—as the member's rightly noted in this Chamber as provided by us to you we've seen a substantive reduction in those who have been incarcerated for cannabis possession charges from 2012 through to 2022. In 2012 there were approximately—well there were 391 people who had been incarcerated for possession of cannabis. That has reduced now to this year being down to 180. I note the member's comments about the broader charges that relate to—but as she is well aware the outcome of those determinations when we collectively introduced those laws was that we would provide those front-line officers with that discretion. And we can see that being exercised with the reduction in cannabis possession offences.With respect to this annual Budget it's suffice to say that there was not a specific stream funded through the justice portfolio dedicated to drug reform. As the member rightly notes that was an issue that was substantively canvassed between the years 2017 and 2020 which resulted in a referendum the outcome of which has bound this Government during this term to the work that we will commit to do on that.The next point I probably think I'd like to make is however with respect to the way that we have seen a shift in the way that those that have found themselves within the justice system as a consequence of addiction due to alcohol and drugs. I want to highlight two things. One is that we're seeing the culture within those courtrooms as a consequence of Te Ao Mārama and programmes like the alcohol and other drug treatment courts that we have—Hon Judith Collins: Thank you for acknowledging my work there bringing that in. Thank you very much.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: It's very good work. I will—I will acknowledge that because having sat through those hearings with those people that have participated Judith Collins—Hon Judith Collins: Yes I did indeed.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: That's what I'm saying. I'm acknowledging you so it's a commendation to you because I've seen the profound impact when I've sat through those courts of what it is to deal with those that have needed support and to be dealt with in a way that where the health concerns of the people are at the forefront. What we've seen through those courts and particularly through the outcomes evaluation and cost-benefit analysis of the Waitākere and Auckland courts in 2019 was relatively large offending reductions within two years of entry when compared with match offenders: 23 percent less likely to re-offend for any offence; 25 percent less likely to be imprisoned as a result of their reoffending. Reoffending and re-incarceration is reduced more for graduates than early exiters and the cost-benefit ratio average of 1.33 means they're to break even. But many other potential benefits were not able to be costed. What we are seeing though is a really positive outcome in these types of alternative ways of dealing with those that suffer from alcohol drug and other addictions and afflictions. That I guess sits at the nexus or underpins the result that's been led out by the judiciary with respect to Te Ao Mārama: doing things differently in that court context bringing community to the table to play a larger role in ensuring reintegration rehabilitation of those that come through the courts.