3. Government Financial Position—Crown DebtHon STEVEN JOYCE (National) to the Minister of FinanceGovernment Financial Position—Crown Debt3. Hon STEVEN JOYCE (National) to the Minister of Finance: Can he confirm core Crown net debt was $59.5 billion at 30 June 2017 and that it is his intention as Minister of Finance to increase net debt to $67.6 billion by 2022 as laid out in Labour's pre-election fiscal plan?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I can confirm that at 30 June 2017 net core Crown debt was $59.48 billion. I can further confirm that it is this Government's policy to reduce net core Crown debt to 20 percent of GDP within five years. As the member knows the exact dollar amount of debt in each year will be determined by the Budget process.Hon Steven Joyce: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was a question written down on notice and I don't believe the Minister of Finance answered the second part of the question. He talked about something about 20 percent of GDP but he didn't actually answer yes or no to whether it was his intention to increase net debt to $67.6 billion by 2022.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Speaking to the point of order I'm not sure if the member heard the last part of my answer where I did specifically address the question of what the exact dollar amount might be.Hon Steven Joyce: He didn't answer the question. Nobody is any the wiser as to whether actually he will allow net debt to get to $67.6 billion by 2022 as laid out in Labour's pre-election fiscal plan.Mr SPEAKER: Well Speakers' rulings are pretty clear in this area. I think somewhere around page 171 is the ruling that members cannot demand a yes/no answer and I'm just about confident enough that the former Minister of Finance understands that these figures might be affected by growth figures.Hon Steven Joyce: Sorry to prolong things Mr Speaker but actually it is possible to say whether it will be higher or lower or about that figure. It is a question on notice—it's not a supplementary question—and I do think that the Minister of Finance could be a bit more specific as to that number given that prior to a certain date in September he was actually accusing people of showing an affront to democracy for—Mr SPEAKER: OK—[Interruption] All right OK. I think where I'm going to leave it is that I might be slightly more liberal as long as they are direct on the supplementaries if the member wants to drill down that way.Hon Steven Joyce: Can the finance Minister confirm that the pre-election fiscal update forecasts net debt to reduce to $56.2 billion by 2022 meaning that his forecast of $67.6 billion is over $11 billion higher than in the pre-election fiscal update?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I can confirm that those were the numbers in the pre-election fiscal update. What we have discovered is that those numbers did not take account of the need for increased spending in education capital expenditure health capital expenditure or a range of other areas.Hon Steven Joyce: Is the Minister then saying that actually he expects to increase debt significantly higher than $67.6 billion because of his concerns about the matters he raised in the previous answer?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The commitment of this Government has been that we will reduce net core Crown debt to 20 percent of GDP. The member well knows from having prepared a Budget himself and being beside someone else who's prepared Budgets that the exact dollar figures for debt are never decided until later in the Budget process.Hon Steven Joyce: Why then was it an affront to democracy to question those figures prior to the election?Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no responsibility for that whatsoever. Hon Steven Joyce: Why doesn't he agree with the ANZ analysis of 7 November that concludes net debt will be billions of dollars higher than he has forecast and that he will breach his own Budget responsibility rule number 2 to reduce net debt to 20 percent of GDP within five years particularly as he's just told the House—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member's finished his question.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Because nothing that I have seen in terms of the advice I've got to this point would point to that and because this Government is committed to reducing debt as a percentage of GDP—20 percent—within five years of taking office. Hon Steven Joyce: If he doesn't like the ANZ's commentary does he agree with the comments from the Bank of New Zealand on Monday who stated that Labour's election campaign budget was just too tight to be credible; if not what does he think the BNZ has got wrong?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What this Government has committed to is a set of Budget responsibility rules and we will work within those. We made commitments before the election to address the social deficits in health in education and in infrastructure and we will do that. I make no apology for having a slower debt track than that Government if it means that we build affordable houses contribute to superannuation and invest in our regions.Hon Steven Joyce: Just to be clear does he commit to meeting all the Government's promises including those in his coalition agreement and his agreement for confidence and supply with the Green Party and also the Speech from the Throne while increasing net debt by only $11 billion from what it was going to be over the next five years?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I absolutely stand by those Government commitments and the Budget responsibility rules that we have put forward.Kiritapu Allan: How does the Government's plan for net core Crown debt compare with recent historical trends?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I can inform the member that net core Crown debt in 2008 was 5.4 percent of GDP or $10.3 billion. By 2016 it had grown to 24.5 percent of GDP or $61.8 billion. Hon Steven Joyce: Just to be clear then is the Minister saying—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I'm going to ask the member—and again I accept that it's a bit of a new experience. I'm going to advise the member to have a look somewhere around Speaker's ruling 173 about prefacing questions with statements. The just to be clear" thing or "in light of this" or "in light of that" add nothing to the question. I'd like the member to go straight to it and then I can be more helpful in getting an answer.Hon Steven Joyce: Thank you Mr Speaker. Does he commit to meeting all the Government's promises including those in those coalition agreements from the Speech from the Throne not in relation to a percentage of GDP but by increasing net debt by no more than $11 billion relative to the pre-election fiscal update over the next five years? A very specific question.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The final exact dollar figures as the member well knows from the Budgets he's been involved in will be decided later in the Budget process but we remain 100 percent committed to our goal of reducing net debt to 20 percent of GDP within five years.Rt Hon Bill English: I seek leave to move a motion to refer the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Amendment Bill back to the relevant select committee for further consideration.Mr SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that? There is objection; it will not happen. [Interruption] Sorry I just want to check that Mr Joyce is finished.Hon Steven Joyce: Yes."