2. Question No. 2—Prime MinisterDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT) to the Prime MinisterQuestion No. 2—Prime MinisterDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Thank you Mr Speaker and on behalf of ACT I'd like to congratulate you on becoming the father of the House. My question is to the Prime Minister—SPEAKER: I'm tempted to say grandson" or something but just keep going.DAVID SEYMOUR: Alrighty Grandad! [Interruption] He started it.Hon Members: Ha ha!2. DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT) to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that "A large number of those buyers of those vehicles are not using them for the legitimate use?"Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): I stand by the point I was making even though I will absolutely say that I think I could've been clearer in the way I made it. As a Cabinet we gave full consideration to the option of creating a carve-out for those vehicles for which there currently aren't equivalent low-emission alternative options where those vehicles were for instance used for business or work purposes. As the member and I know many in this House will appreciate drawing such a distinction does raise issues of fairness consistency and implementation. I would make the point to the member that almost two-thirds of the utes sold in New Zealand last year would not be covered by this policy as they were part of the existing second-hand market. We also expect new models to become available over time.David Seymour: So as the "feebate" policy was finalised with that advice will people who are using a ute for their legitimate use still have to pay tax under feebate?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: First I'd like to clarify that actually it was not the advice of officials that we have a carve-out and in fact their view was that we should not. That did not stop Cabinet having a discussion over the fact that for many there is not an alternative for a ute which is used for business purposes that there is not an alternative—currently—no-emissions vehicle on the market. So that's why we had that discussion but ultimately as I have said in my primary answer there were issues around how you would implement such a carve-out. So ultimately the decision was taken to have a much more straightforward scheme recognising which was coming on stream. The point I make to the member: no one who currently owns a ute is affected by this policy. This is for new and imported vehicles rather than those that are existing and in the country and in the second-hand market a point that I note is not being clearly made by all members in this House.David Seymour: Could those people buying utes for "legitimate" uses avoid the tax by purchasing an electric ute from Toyota and if not why not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: At present those who are bringing electric vehicles into the market within the next 12 to 24 months include LDV. Toyota have themselves said they "hope to have [a] Hilux hybrid enter the market before the end of next year"—that statement was made by the Toyota New Zealand CEO on 22 April 2020. I would say again to the member: the vast majority of utes purchased by New Zealanders are from within the second-hand market which is not affected and this policy that we've applied does cover incentives or no fees for low and hybrid vehicles not just electric vehicles (EVs).Hon Judith Collins: Thank you. Is it the Prime Minister's job to tell Kiwis whether or not their vehicle choices are legitimate?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member if she had listened to my first answer would've heard me clarify that actually drawing those distinctions are incredibly difficult. So creating a carve-out although it was considered by Cabinet was just not something that we felt we could do fairly. I would say to the member that given Stuart Smith says "I'm against subsidies for EVs" Michael Woodhouse says "National supports introducing financial incentives for EVs" Chris Bishop says "National is the party for EVs" Mark Mitchell says he would incentivise them and Todd Muller says he's broadly supportive I personally would be interested in what National's policy is on this issue.Hon Judith Collins: Ha ha! Does she view driving—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Order! The extra questions are mitigated by the fact that the laughter came from both sides.Hon Judith Collins: Does she view driving a seven-seater people mover like the Mazda CX-9 as illegitimate; if not why is she putting a tax on them?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again this is also about trying to make sure that we are incentivising and discounting low emissions—not just EVs but low emissions options. We know from research that placing incentives at the point of sale supports those who otherwise may not have the ability to ultimately purchase a vehicle which would be cheaper over the lifetime cost. A Toyota Estima seven-seater produces a $670 discount for a used vehicle; a Toyota Prius v seven-seater has a $1310 discount; a Nissan seven-seater has a $3450 discount—they're all used vehicles. In fact eight out of 10 of New Zealand's most popular used vehicles either have no fee or attract an incentive or a discount.David Seymour: Has the Prime Minister driven an electric ute from Toyota and if not why not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I have already said LDV are bringing the electric vehicles and Toyota themselves have acknowledged that they are bringing in a hybrid. Again no one here is saying—and this is the very reason we've discussed the carve-out issue—that there currently is that immediate alternative. However as has been said by Drive Electric "Taken together the emissions standards and consumer incentive puts New Zealand on the map for electric vehicle manufacturers. We are telling them New Zealand is a serious market for electric vehicles and we want that supply. We are looking forward to them bringing in new ranges and models." New Zealand may have otherwise suffered from manufacturers not necessarily supplying New Zealand with alternatives if we did not have clean car standards and incentives. David Seymour: Will it be a legitimate use for a Toyota electric ute to drive it on the bike bridge that the Government announced last week and if not why not?SPEAKER: Order! David Seymour: Point of Order Mr Speaker.SPEAKER: Now I've ruled the question out because it involves irony. The member knows that; the member knows it's out of order. If he's going to really argue that it doesn't he's going to have to make a pretty good argument.David Seymour: Mr Speaker there's a perfectly legitimate line of questioning about the legitimacy of different use of vehicles—the Prime Minister is trying to tell New Zealanders what that is and people want answers about what it might be. There's also a perfectly legitimate line of questioning about the utility to be derived from the Government's announcement of a bike bridge. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what the scope of that bridge is. Now I'm glad that you find it entertaining Mr Speaker but people at home want answers to these serious questions.Hon Grant Robertson: Does the Prime Minister think it is possible for New Zealand to reach its climate change commitments including those signed up to in Paris by changing absolutely nothing about our vehicle fleet?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No in fact the majority of New Zealanders when surveyed support initiatives in this area because—unlike the member asking the question—they do not believe that we can sit back while the world continues to move and change around us without getting in front of this issue. We are behind the rest of the world when it comes to the uptake of electric vehicles and a good reason for that is because the price point at the point of sale is high. This is one way we can support New Zealanders and it will reduce the lifetime cost of their vehicle. That member wants them to pay more at the pump instead. David Seymour: If Toyota electric utes did exist would it be legitimate to use them on the bridge recently announced by the Government?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No.David Seymour: If Toyota electric utes did exist and they were able to be driven on that bridge would that help raise the benefit-cost ratio for the bridge from the measly 0.4 reported in the New Zealand Herald on Friday?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Look on the one hand I do want to applaud the ACT Party for finally agreeing that actually climate change exists. That's a vast improvement on where you were 10 years ago. I sat in this House when Rodney Hide instigated a select committee to inquire into the existence of climate change. So look congratulations for moving on some way but the member—at least if he wants to acknowledge that climate change exists perhaps now is the time to actually support some initiatives that will do something about it.David Seymour: Is this line of questioning getting under the Prime Minister's skin?SPEAKER: Further supplementary?David Seymour: I'll ask the Prime Minister: if Toyota electric utes did exist and could be driven on the bridge and it would make the bridge viable under the benefit-cost ratio what would be the Government's plan for disposing of all those thousands of toxic EV batteries?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: So the member unfortunately believes that we as a nation will be instead better off becoming the dumping ground for all of those high-emissions vehicles that other countries are currently banning. No one in New Zealand I would have thought would think that is a good idea. Unless we move to a combination of clean car standards and incentives we will be the dumping ground of the rest of the world. I also note that countries that he likes to replicate—the likes of Singapore has a clean car incentive such as the one that New Zealand is proposing.David Seymour: Could the Prime Minister please now answer my previous question: what is New Zealand's plan for disposing of EV batteries? It's a serious question.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Well I'd be forgiven for not thinking—Hon Michael Wood: Point of order. The member's had a fair go but it's very hard to see how that question stems at all from the primary question.SPEAKER: I think unfortunately because the Prime Minister was fairly fast to answer the previous question when I would have probably ruled it out by her answer she made the subject area broad enough for Mr Seymour to ask his question—just. Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I could be forgiven for not taking the member's question as seriously as he intended given the nature in which he asked it. But when it comes to the issue of batteries these of course are things that the likes of the Ministry for the Environment continue to work through. But I would still caution the member around the idea that somehow that is a reason for us to continue as I've said to be the dumping ground of vehicles that many many other countries we import from are banning.Hon David Parker: Is the Prime Minister aware that the lead acid batteries in cars and trucks are amongst the most recycled item on the planet and is she as confident as the Minister for the Environment that such systems will also be used in the future for lithium ion batteries?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes."