English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 27 February 2007. Volume:637;Page:7657. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
2.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have confidence in her Minister of Foreign Affairs; if so why? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister. 
Hon Bill English 
: Was Mr Peters the Minister of Foreign Affairs speaking for the New Zealand Government when he stated: “There would be no advantage to an immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.” and “… circumstances would slide into total chaos if that was to happen.”; if he was not speaking for the New Zealand Government what is the position of the New Zealand Government? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Mr Peters stated: “I will give you my opinion.” 
Keith Locke 
: Is it not peculiar that our Minister of Foreign Affairs is speaking out in favour of more young Americans being sent to be killed or to kill in Iraq when our Government has quite rightly— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is one thing to tolerate mischievous journalists seeking to misrepresent what I said; it is quite something else within this House to have a member say what he just said—which is totally not true. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I ask the member to rephrase his question please. 
Keith Locke 
: Oh I thought it was—what was not true? [ 
Interruption 
] I will rephrase it. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The member raised a point of order. I have ruled on the point of order. The member said that was not what he said in the statement. 
Keith Locke 
: Yes I will put it in a different way that might satisfy the member more. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Thank you. 
Keith Locke 
: Is it not peculiar that our Minister of Foreign Affairs is speaking out for a continuation of the Iraq war which will result in more young Americans killing and being killed in Iraq when our Government—quite rightly—has kept well clear of the Iraq war? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I drew no such inference from what the Minister said. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports about the primary questioner’s credentials regarding the question of troop withdrawals or of his views regarding National’s spokesperson on foreign affairs and of the National leader’s foreign affairs crisis which has seen him—despite having several so-called foreign policy experts within his caucus—take the extraordinary step of setting up an independent thinktank including Jim Bolger— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: You don’t deal with this. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: When I am talking you keep quiet—OK? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: You don’t deal with that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No no. When I am talking the member keeps quiet. Point of order— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No—please be seated. If the member engages with chit-chat then there will be disorder in the House. Would the member please just ask his question. The ruling is that reasonable interjections are permitted. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports about the primary questioner’s credentials regarding the question of troop withdrawals or of his views regarding National’s spokesperson on foreign affairs and of the National leader’s foreign affairs crisis which has seen him—despite having several so-called foreign policy experts within his caucus— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: She’s only responsible for you. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: —well no one is responsible for you— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: That’s right. I’m responsible for myself. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I mean no one is responsible for that member. In fact after the last leadership crisis he got demoted. In fact he jumped before he got pushed and made it seem like some magnanimous act. But to carry on—[ 
Interruption 
] Look this is not a woodwork lesson; this is about foreign policy—the National leader took the extraordinary step of setting up an independent thinktank including Jim Bolger Jenny Shipley and other doubtful dubious foreign affairs luminaries. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: My understanding of Mr English’s credentials was that he supported the war—he got up in this House on 18 March and stated that New Zealand should be supporting the coalition of the willing. As to where the National Party gets its foreign policy advice from I can only agree with Mr English who stated in writing to Dr Brash: “You need to know now that the experienced people you have will not work in a Government run by Mr McCully.”—who is of course the foreign affairs spokesperson. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It is impossible for the member to be able to be heard when he puts his question. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can she tell the House whether the New Zealand Government agrees or disagrees with the position advocated by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that “… circumstances would slide into total chaos” if US forces withdrew from Iraq? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The New Zealand Government and most parties represented in this House did not support the war in Iraq. It does not have troops there and it is not getting involved in a debate about what other nations should do with their troops. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I asked for quiet so that the Hon Bill English could put his question. I ask for quiet from the Opposition while the Hon Phil Goff puts his question. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Has she seen the comment that New Zealand was too far away from Iraq to judge the best course of action; who made that comment and is it consistent with what his co-leader and other members of his party have said before and since? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I understand it is Mr Key’s position that Iraq is simply too far away. That did not stop Mr English committing his party to supporting the war. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the House take it from the answer the Prime Minister gave to my previous question that she does not know whether the New Zealand Government agrees with the statements made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and what confidence can New Zealand or any foreign Government have in that Minister if she cannot back statements publicly that he made publicly about New Zealand’s position? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: In a Government I lead a Minister from another party is entitled to express an opinion. That may be novel to the member. 
Hon Bill English 
: So how are foreign Governments and New Zealand voters to know whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs is expressing a personal opinion when he made these statements in an official press conference after an official meeting in his official capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs with the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Australia; and in what circumstances can we ever expect Winston Peters to actually articulate Government policy? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The short answer is: a lot more easily than one would find out what the current position of the National Party is on Iraq. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the positions on this side of the House on non-involvement in Iraq have in fact been consistent whereas the positions taken on the same question by the National Party have been multiple and contradictory? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I can certainly confirm that. Indeed I see some people taking a range of positions from supporting our sending troops in 2003 to claiming in December last year that they never supported our sending troops. Both positions were taken by John Key—and no doubt by the party’s co-leader Bill English. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Point of order the Rt Hon Winston Peters. [ 
Interruption 
]  
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I tell the member to keep quiet—that is the last time I tell him that. Madam Speaker this is a question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Is this a point of order or a supplementary question? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: It is now a point of order. I was going to ask a question but it is now a point of order. Madam Speaker although you have appeared to allow some intervention by way of statements from members of parties when someone is putting a question surely that is not allowed. And if I had been about to make a point of order the member should never have opened his mouth in the first place. That is all I am saying. I rose to ask a question and I would have liked to be able to actually put the thing before Mr Smith—who always has these psychological problems anyway— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is an entirely inappropriate comment about another member as the member knows. What the member has asked for is that members show a little bit of restraint and courtesy so that we can all hear what the question is. The noise was such that I thought the member was originally asking for a point of order. Would the member please ask his question succinctly. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I think that if you consider the comment just made by Mr Peters you will find it appropriate for him to withdraw and apologise for that remark. Given that you are asking everybody to draw a bit of breath and give people a fair go that remark is hardly in line with what he has just offered to the House. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Did the member take offence at the comment? The member does take offence. Is the member asking for the other member to withdraw? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I ask the member to withdraw and apologise. It is totally untrue and unfair. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I apologise for saying that the member had psychological problems. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The member knows that that is out of order. [ 
Interruption 
] The member will sit down or he will be out of this Chamber. The member knows well enough that in these circumstances a member merely withdraws and apologises—he or she does not repeat the allegation. If there is any more of that the member will be out of the Chamber. Would he please just ask his supplementary question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Thank you Madam Speaker. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Sorry the member must withdraw and apologise. That is it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I withdraw and apologise. It is done. Can the Prime Minister contrast the situation now of someone in the Government who as a Minister can give an honest opinion on a tragic humanitarian problem whether it be in Afghanistan or Sudan and that of someone who rose in a National caucus meeting asked a simple question like: “What has the leader been doing?” and got sacked out of caucus? [ 
Interruption 
] That is the contrast. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am trying to see where the ministerial responsibility is. [ 
Interruption 
] I am sorry I have ruled on that matter. If the member wishes to ask another supplementary question he may do so after the Hon Bill English whom I call for this supplementary question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. If you are to allow the primary question and all others to be based on the precept of one’s opinion then surely I am allowed to ask a similar question based on opinion as well. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No what the member was asking for as I heard it was a comparison. There is no ministerial responsibility in those circumstances. The member may wish to reflect on how he can ask a question that is within the bounds of the Standing Orders. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Prime Minister recall an assurance given by the Hon Phil Goff to the Australian Foreign Minister that “policy from Winston will not be policy spun off the top of anybody’s head” but will be the policy of the Labour-led Government; and given that that assurance appears to have been breached has she or her officials been in contact with the Australian Government to explain to it that when Mr Peters speaks at official press conferences after official meetings he is probably not expressing the views of the New Zealand Labour - led Government? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I said in response to an earlier answer Mr Peters made it very clear that it was his opinion. I state further that it was an honest opinion about a tragic situation. We are not used to hearing honest opinions from some others in this House. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister received any reports as to the wisdom of decision making when members of Parliament give an opinion that might affect the governance of the day—such as for example a case when a Minister gave his honest opinion on a very tragic circumstance and how the world might help its improvement—or by way of similar contrast someone asking what the leader is doing then being fired straight out of the National caucus? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I repeat that I believe the Minister gave an honest opinion about a tragic situation. Apparently honest opinions about the leader of the National Party lead to one’s expulsion from the caucus. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It is difficult when members of the Hon Bill English’s party interject to the extent that it is difficult to hear him. 
Hon Bill English 
: If as the Prime Minister states the Minister of Foreign Affairs simply espoused an honest opinion about a tragic situation then why did she not say that yesterday instead of denying that it was anything to do with the Government; and if it was an honest opinion about a tragic situation can she now take this chance to tell the House her honest opinion about this tragic situation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I repeat that New Zealand has no troops there and the New Zealand Government is not telling other nations how to run their policies there. 
Hon Bill English 
: If the New Zealand Government will not tell other nations what they should be doing with their troops in Iraq has she now instructed the Minister of Foreign Affairs to stop giving the impression that he is speaking on behalf of the New Zealand Government in telling other nations what to do with their troops or is he to be allowed to continue giving his personal opinion wherever he goes anywhere in the world? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What a terrible thing it is for someone to state: “It is my opinion.” and then to be damned by the National Opposition which expels people from its caucus for stating an honest opinion about a hopeless Leader of the Opposition. We have just heard from the former hopeless Leader of the Opposition. The other one has deigned not to be here to speak on this. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Prime Minister in the interests of exactitude whether it is a fact that the New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs gave no opinion or view whatsoever on an exit strategy or a withdrawal of troops from Iraq short term or long term but was speaking about something else entirely. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: That would be my interpretation. The Minister spoke about February 2007 and the situation as he saw it. 
Keith Locke 
: I seek leave to table a survey by World Public Opinion of Iraqi public opinion which shows that 78 percent of Iraqis think that the US military presence is provoking more conflict than it is preventing. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.