Fenton Darien: State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill — In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeFenton Darien: State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill — In Committee[Sitting date: 02 July 2013. Volume:691;Page:11700. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]DARIEN FENTON (Labour):Excellent choice. Thank you to the member for that.Hon David Cunliffe: What are all those backbenchers doing just sitting there?DARIEN FENTON: That is right. It has been a very very interesting discussion in the Committee stage of this bill the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill. I have been listening as I have been working in my office as people have been talking about silos and their experiences with the State sector. I wanted to remind my colleague Trevor Mallard of one of the things that he tried to do I think when he was Minister of State Services. You were Minister of State Services?Hon Trevor Mallard: I was. Only for 6 years though.DARIEN FENTON: Yes I remember one of the things that he tried to do was to get the chief executives together and do a simple thing like having common leave provisions across the State sector. There was enormous resistance to that as I understand it. It was the most difficult job because the chief executives could not get their heads around doing something together. They were all precious about their departments. They all thought that they should just have the direct say on whether their staff should have I think it was 4 weeks’ annual leave then. They did not actually want to be—Hon Trevor Mallard: Some of them had 4 weeks and a day for this reason or that and they’re all bloody different.DARIEN FENTON: Oh OK. Yes they were all bloody different as Trevor Mallard just said. All the leave provisions were different. But it was such an enormous job for a very sensible proposition. I would have thought that that would be something that chief executives in the State sector would embrace actually—that they would actually embrace that. I am not convinced that the State Sector and Public Finance Reform Bill will actually change that culture. If anything I think it has gotten worse.But I should say that I am pleased that we have made progress on this bill and we have got to a point where we can support it. I am pleased that part of the hard work done by the Labour members on the Finance and Expenditure Committee in negotiation with the National Government has ended with a conclusion where we can accept—I will say it is not perfect—the changes made particularly around redundancy entitlements and workforce policy statements where the State Services Commission cannot interfere in wage bargaining.I will say again as I said in one other speech about this though that I find it very confusing that on the one hand we can get the Government to the point where it acceptsthat redundancy and redundancy entitlements are fair for public servants. We on this side of course think that is very right. But it does not think it is fair for other workers who work outside of the State sector. It continues to oppose basic redundancy entitlements for all workers throughout New Zealand. It has done that through a bill that I brought to the House as a member’s bill which is now back in the House under the name of Sue Moroney. The Government will continue to oppose that so I get confused about the conflict that there seems to be in the Government’s mind. It can have one set of rules on the one hand for public sector workers but it is not good enough for other workers throughout the country.The same goes for collective bargaining actually because there is an acceptance in this bill that collective bargaining is a good way of reaching agreement across the State sector. But then on the other hand we have Simon Bridges’ bill to completely undermine collective bargaining for all workers including State sector workers as well. So I get very confused about the Government’s messages. I think that it is not only a silo mentality in the State Service but a silo mentality amongst Ministers where they do not seem to be able to bring their policies together. They have some alignment between them and it is a little bit like that with the Employment Relations Amendment Bill as well and the health and safety reforms that the Government is bringing through. Health and safety reforms are great but then on the other hand we have the same Minister bringing forward reforms that will completely undermine health and safety by reducing workers’ rights.Talking about silos too I also heard my colleagues talking about the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment that mega-monster that creation of Steven Joyce which he has put together which is gradually being taken apart. I like my other colleagues never saw why the Department of Labour—a department that we have had dedicated to workforce policy issues and workplace relationships for more than 100 years; for more than 100 years we had a Department of Labour in New Zealand—has disappeared and been swallowed up into the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment. It is even hard to know what to call it any more. I think the inspectors the miserable number of 35 labour inspectors that we have throughout New Zealand still call themselves labour inspectors. But there is no resemblance in the ministry to that wonderful—Hon Trevor Mallard: “Mobie” inspectors.DARIEN FENTON: They may well be “Mobie” inspectors I am not sure but all I do know is that there is only 35 of them and they are supposed to enforce labour rights for all workers.Hon Ruth Dyson: Isn’t there meant to be more than that?DARIEN FENTON: Well there are meant to be more health and safety inspectors and that is another matter because what is happening now is that the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment and the Department of Labour part of that is being unwound as the Government is forced to set up a new agency for health and safety. It started this brave new world on 1 July Monday this week. There were supposed to be more than 150 health and safety inspectors in place in this Lifting Our Game programme that they have been going through—yet another restructuring—that has become known as “shifting the blame” by the health and safety inspectors. It has been very disgraceful—one of the worst restructurings and botch-ups that has ever been seen. The Minister in the chair the Minister of Revenue agrees with me. I can see him nodding. This restructuring that has gone on has been an absolute botch-up. What we have in place are 74 inspectors fewer than half of what we had 2 years ago.Here we are creating a Crown agency for health and safety and moving over the health and safety enforcement part or the direction part of the Ministry of BusinessInnovation and Employment or what used to be the Department of Labour. But the transition is awful—the transition is awful. It is scary as well because how on earth are we going to make sure that people are kept safe and healthy at work in the next 12 months while the new Crown agency is established? The Government is gutting the Department of Labour part of the ministry and it is getting smaller and smaller and I really have to wonder what its purpose is. I do wonder actually whether the real agenda of the Government is to not have anything like a Department of Labour not to have anything that is responsible for making sure that workers’ rights are enforced and making sure that employment legislation actually works.Of course what we find is that because the department is so short on resources now it cannot even tell us for example whether the legislation this Government has brought in around employment rights actually works. I asked a question the other day about the 4 weeks’ annual leave that can be cashed up and the other changes that were made in 2010. The department has done no research on that. How can a Government and a department in the State sector bring forward legislation argue it and push it through because the Government has the numbers and then do no follow-up to see whether it is working or whether there is a problem? It cannot even tell us whether there have been any complaints about it. This is shocking—this is shocking. Although I am pleased we have got to a point where we can support the bill because of changes that were made during the select committee process—as I said it is not perfect; there are still some issues here—I am not convinced that this is going to change first of all the Government’s attitude to making sure that people are provided with proper information and the proper policy and guidance but second of all the attitude of chief executives.As I started out by saying in my contribution chief executives in Trevor Mallard’s time openly resisted changes that we were trying to make around having common leave provisions. I also know that they openly resisted collective bargaining which was a policy of the Labour Government and part of our legislation. They openly resisted it and they refused—and still to this day refuse—to include wages in collective agreements. That fight has been going on for 10 years because chief executives came out of the 1990s had an ideology do not believe in collective bargaining and do not believe wages should be included in collective agreements and that battle is still going on 9 years later. What I can say is that if we are the Government next year that will change—that will change. It is not acceptable to have direction from a Government and have so much resistance because of the particular ideology of the State sector executives. As I said I do not believe this will change the attitude. I think it is good that we have got to a point where we can vote for it. I do think there are ongoing problems in the State sector.I am looking forward to seeing what develops with health and safety. I am looking forward to the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment—the old Department of Labour—recommending there should be an inquiry into forestry safety after the forestry owners came out last night and said they supported one. There is some good advice that they could get and it could be given to the Minister of Labour. He should be acting on that today.