Goldsmith Paul: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeGoldsmith Paul: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 26 June 2013. Volume:691;Page:11266. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]2.PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)to theMinister of Finance: What progress is the Government making to ensure future generations of New Zealanders are not saddled with excessive debt?Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Acting Minister of Finance):The Government is making significant progress in getting debt under control. It is important to remember the situation inherited by the National-led Government in 2008. Back then Treasury was forecasting never-ending fiscal deficits and Government debt rising roughly for ever and at the time the current account deficit was above 8.8 percent of GDP. That situation was clearly unsustainable. The Government has taken decisive action over five Budgets to get its own books back to surplus by 2014-15 to start repaying debt and to help bring the current account deficit down from those previously high levels.Paul Goldsmith: As part of its wider programme what progress is the Government making in getting its own books in order?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Budget forecasts show net core Crown debt peaking at 28.7 percent of GDP in 2014-15 before declining. Longer-term projections show net debt dropping to 17.6 percent of GDP by 2020-21. Projections in 2009 indicated that if the Government had maintained the spending track it inherited net debt would likely exceed 60 percent of GDP by the early 2020s. Government decisions since then mean that net Government debt will be around 40 percent of GDP lower than projected. That is a difference of more than $80 billion—Dr David Clark: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am concerned about the member opposite who continues to undermine your ruling by displaying the card with his IQ on it across the House there.Mr SPEAKER: I was unaware that the member was continuing to use that but if it is raised again Hon Tau Henare you will leave the Chamber.Hon Tau Henare: I seek leave to table—Mr SPEAKER: No.Hon Tau Henare: —the No. 30.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will please leave the Chamber for the balance of question time.Hon Tau Henare withdrew from the Chamber.Mr SPEAKER: Have we got a supplementary question?Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry; I have a point of order from Gerry Brownlee.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I fully accept the ruling that you have just made but I would ask that when all sorts of signage and other such is displayed on a future occasion by the Opposition a similar approach will be taken because it is equally offensive at various times.Mr SPEAKER: Order! No there is no need for any further comment. Mr Henare was asked to not show that any further and he continued to do so. That is defying the Speaker.Paul Goldsmith: What reports—Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Before that last point of order you had indicated that it was going to be my question.Mr SPEAKER: No. I determine when I take supplementary questions and from where I take them. I did at one stage think the member was raising a point of order. The member tends to stand to his feet and not announce to me whether it is a supplementary question he is seeking or a point of order which does not make it helpful.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am happy to look at the Parliamentary record but with respect that is balderdash. I get to my feet and I ask a supplementary question or I make a point of order and that sort of criticism will not do.Mr SPEAKER: And I have accepted a supplementary question from Paul Goldsmith. I will come to the member in due time.Paul Goldsmith: What reports has he received on New Zealand’s wider national debt position particularly with respect to the current account and the net international investment position?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Statistics New Zealand last week reported the March quarter data on both the current account and New Zealand’s net international investment position. This showed that the current account deficit narrowed slightly to 4.8 percent of GDP as at 31 March down from 5 percent as at 31 December. New Zealand has run current account deficits for around 40 years but the situation became extremely serious in 2006 2007 and 2008 when the deficit was consistently higher than 8 percent of GDP. The net international debt position also improved a little in the March quarter: it fell to 69.3 percent of GDP down from 71.4 percent in December. Although that is still high it compares favourably with the net international debt position of 85 percent of GDP in early 2009.Rt Hon Winston Peters: How does the Minister reconcile that last answer and the one before that with a current account deficit of $10 billion heading towards $17 billion—every dollar of which is debt—and the worst borrowing record in over 70 years?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I cannot agree with the member’s statements and I think the first issue is that he is looking at amounts rather than at percentages of GDP. Of course if you have a larger GDP then you can actually have a larger amount of debt—which may be relevant to the member in future. But in terms of the current account the actual percentage of GDP has actually declined which is the key point from 8.5 percent or more of GDP in 2008 down to around 4.8 percent now. That is good progress.Paul Goldsmith: What contributions are manufacturers making in helping New Zealand build economic growth?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: A very good question. Manufacturers are making a significant contribution. Since the beginning of 2009 the manufacturing sector has grown by 9.2 percent. That is a very significant turn-round from 2008 when manufacturing shrank by 12 percent in just 1 year. Since 2009—Dr David Clark: How much of that’s non-primary sector?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: —wait and it will come “Mr Parrot”—non-food manufacturing sales have grown by 6.3 percent. In 2008 they fell by 7.2 percent. Since 2009 non-food manufacturing volumes have grown by 1.3 percent. In 2008 they fell by nearly 15 percent and non-food manufacturing export volumes have grown by nearly 15 percent since 2009. Finally of course the manufacturing BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index is currently at 59.2 compared to 35.8 in 2008.Hon David Parker: Given the Minister did not know the answer to that question yesterday can he now confirm that manufacturing exports outside the primary sector are down in real terms by 17 percent since 2008 and by 6 percent in the last full year for which there are records?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I have checked and no I cannot because the figures I have just quoted—the non-food manufacturing—is the closest information. I appreciate the member may have constructed his own series in terms of reducing it. The other thing is that Mr Parker seems to be trying to use the CPI to deflate the export figures hence his use of what he calls real terms. Of course that is simply wrong as domestic CPI is not the way to deflate export prices and volumes. So I am sorry but Mr Parker is just being a wee bit too tricky with these numbers.Hon David Parker: Is it correct that according to the Reserve Bank the level of borrowing for residential housing is at an all-time high of $181 billion; if so how much additional debt does he expect New Zealanders will take on to buy houses over the next year with house price inflation in Auckland currently running at 15 percent?Hon Member: At half what it was under Labour.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well exactly. I think that record is significantly better than under the Labour Government. I think the issue—Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was whether the figure that I gave is correct. It was not what the Minister—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I heard the question and if we could give the Minister an opportunity to answer then I will decide whether it has been addressed.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well I do not have the exact numbers and given I have just been deconstructing the member’s previous question I am rather leery as to his numbers.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. He says he does not know the answer to that question so I am happy with that answer.Mr SPEAKER: I heard that but that is not a legitimate point of order. We are going to have difficulty—Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. If the purpose of question time is for the Minister to address the question and the Minister says: “I don’t have that information.” it is not within his ambit to address another question that was not asked.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I would—[Interruption ] Order! No I do not need any assistance. The difficulty I want to see cease is a situation where any member asks a question then decides they are either unhappy with the answer or completely satisfied with the answer and then raises a point of order that stops a Minister from finishing the answer to the Minister’s satisfaction. If that continues to happen the best way forwardfor me is to then move to the next question because I will assume on that basis that the person who has asked the question is completely satisfied with the answer. Therefore I see the opportunity for the forfeiture of supplementary questions. I do not want to do that. There will be the odd occasion when it is legitimate for a member to say the question has gone on—[Interruption ] Order! I am trying to help the House particularly after yesterday. But we are going to get into difficulty if whenever a member thinks he or she has heard enough he or she raises a point of order to say: “That’s sufficient let’s move on.”Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In the previous Speaker’s term we got into the rhythm in this House that if a straight question was asked a straight answer would come back. The issue that we on this side of the House have is that when we ask a question that is a straightforward question the Minister says: “I don’t have that information.” and then proceeds to go into either a political attack or some other thing. That is where the difficulty lies for us. We would like to see that ruling continue to be in force and then we will not have the problems that you are suggesting.Mr SPEAKER: I will—Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Speaking to the—Mr SPEAKER: Oh we will hear from the Hon Steven Joyce.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: As I recall the question in this particular instance it asked about a piece of information and then went on to ask some other things so the question then becomes whether the Minister is entitled to make a response to the broader elements of the question if he or she does not have that particular detail in front of him or her. I think that to suggest that is not possible is perhaps making it quite hard for Ministers to determine how exactly to respond to a question.Mr SPEAKER: I appreciate—[Interruption ] I do not need to hear any more. I appreciate the comments that have come from both sides of the House. With regard to Grant Robertson’s point the previous Speaker did establish a very good habit of ensuring that where a clear question is asked it deserves a concise and clear answer. If that answer is that the Minister doesn’t have the facts I still think that on occasions there will be the opportunity and there should be the opportunity for the Minister to explain why he might not have those facts. So I accept the points that have been raised by all members particularly Grant Robertson and I will endeavour to see that we get sharp answers to sharp questions.Hon Clayton Cosgrove: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: If it is a fresh point of order I will hear it for certain.Hon Clayton Cosgrove: Yes it is. I thank you for your ruling. The only other point I would raise—Mr SPEAKER: Order! This is a point of order and it will be heard in silence.Hon Clayton Cosgrove: —and on which I would seek your guidance—because I think you may have inadvertently made reference to the exchange between the Minister and me yesterday and that is fair enough. But you have ruled and I think it was quite a new ruling and you have ruled on a number of occasions over subsequent months that if a member gets a direct yes or no answer or whatever and is satisfied with that ruling—and you have stuck up for our right to do so—we can rise and say we are satisfied with that and move on. You did that with me yesterday for instance here.Mr SPEAKER: That is exactly the point I am raising so it is hardly a fresh point of order. I am saying to the member particularly in light of my reviewing theHansard yesterday that if he takes the opportunity of doing that it is not strictly a point of order and the risk for any member who does that will be for me to immediately move to the next question.Hon David Parker: Then is it correct that according to the Reserve Bank the level of borrowing for residential housing has increased by around $10 billion over the past year; if so how much additional debt does he expect New Zealanders will take on to buy houses over the next year with house price inflation in Auckland currently running at 15 percent?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Again I can say that I do not have those specific numbers in front of me in light of the primary question but the point that I can—Hon David Parker: Which was about debt—excessive debt.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well it was actually about—yes but not about elements of it. But the point I would make is that in terms of the increase in residential debt that is coming off a period post - global financial crisis that was significantly lower but nevertheless the Government is concerned about increasing levels of residential debt which is why we are very very focused on making sure that we increase the supply of houses in Auckland to ensure that there are opportunities for people to purchase houses at lower levels of debt than they have been able to do in the past.Hon David Parker: I seek leave to table the Reserve Bank data series to show that the debt figures and increases are as I have said.Mr SPEAKER: It is available to all members I think is it not?Hon David Parker: Point of order Mr Speaker—Mr SPEAKER: Perhaps if the member could tell us the source of the document.Hon David Parker: It is Table C6 from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand but—Mr SPEAKER: Which is available I presume on their website. [Interruption ] No. Order!