Roy Heather: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Roy Heather: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:613;Page:10220] 
1. HEATHER ROY (ACT) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Health 
: Does she stand by her claim in the  
British Medical Journal  
that: “Conventional Western medicine has been unable to close the disparities in mortality and health revealed in official statistics.” and does she accept the findings in the 1999 Ministry of Health report  
Our Health Our Future 
 that “The improvement that has occurred in Maori life expectancy at birth since 1950 has been described as spectacular”? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA (Associate Minister of Health) 
: 
 Yes I do stand by my comments. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This question has been set down on notice. It has two parts to it. The Minister addressed the first part and did not attempt to address the second part at all. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the Minister said she stood by her comments. 
Rodney Hide 
: The question as set down asks secondly: “… does she accept the findings in the 1999 Ministry of Health report …?”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Perhaps the Minister could comment on that part. 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Maori health did appear to be dramatically improving. However subsequent reports show that information to have been misleading because of the under-reporting of Maori data. The picture is worse than we once thought. Since 1980 improvement in Maori life expectancy has been slight whereas for Pakeha improvement in life expectancy has been more marked. So the gap is currently getting wider. 
Heather Roy 
: Does the Minister accept Otago University’s Dr Papaarangi Reid’s analysis that Pakeha have stolen Maori life expectancy or does she accept that conventional Western medicine has been the best thing for Maori life expectancy? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I think we need to listen carefully to the arguments that have been put forward by acknowledged experts like Dr Papaarangi Reid Professor Mason Durie and others and I am certainly not prepared to ignore such expertise. The key findings of the 2003 report  
Decades of Disparity 
 is that mortality rates declined steadily for all ages and both sexes for Pakeha whereas Maori and Pacific groups showed little change. 
Steve Chadwick 
: What is the Government doing to address Maori health issues? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Last year I launched the Maori health strategy He Korowai Oranga and a separate Maori health action plan Whakatataka which place whanau ora at the centre of public policy. He Korowai Oranga supports whanau to address underlying causes of health issues and enables them to support individual members of the whanau through collective action. 
Dr Lynda Scott 
: Does the Minister believe that it is Western medicine that can treat type 2 diabetes and its complications; and what is she doing to promote the understanding and acceptance of the need to use such treatment when traditional Maori healing fails? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: There is no evidence that traditional Maori healing fails. Certainly I accept that for type 2 diabetes Western-type interventions are important. 
Metiria Turei 
: Has the Minister also seen the quote from Professor Ring of James Cook University— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am sorry. I did not see the member or hear him call; I apologise. I have called Metiria Turei. I will call the member next. 
Metiria Turei 
: Has the Minister also seen the quote from Professor Ring of James Cook University and Ngaire Brown from the Australian Indigenous Doctors’ Association in the same issue of the  
British Medical Journal  
: “If Governments are to truly contribute to positive change they need to make the commitment that would transcend political vagaries and election cycles and strip away the racism that remains a barrier to progress and health of indigenous peoples.”; and does she have any advice about that for the member who asked the primary question? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: As well as those reports that have been quoted by that member editorials in four major international medical journals have described the impact of racism on the health of the nation. Why are we not prepared to be informed by that international context in the light of our own appalling statistics? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Would the Minister not admit that the biggest improvements for Maori health would come from a decent nationwide screening programme in respect of diabetes and hepatitis B which could be run together—[ 
Interruption 
] Yes I will get on to the member’s one shortly. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is the one and only warning today. There will be no interjections. I ask the member to restart the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Would the Minister not admit that the biggest improvements for Maori health would come from a proper nationwide screening programme in respect of Maori for diabetes and hepatitis B—which could both be done at the same time—and secondly that Maori die much more often and in far greater numbers from obesity-rated diseases for example than for any other reason and that that is where her concentration and focus should go rather than on making veiled stupid comments about racism? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: While I accept there are social issues relative to the position of Maori health I think it is important we take a very broad view of that and accept that racism plays a key part in that as well. 
Dr Lynda Scott 
: Does the Minister stand by her statement in her article “Tribal Health Policy in New Zealand” that “We soon found ourselves tangled up in audits having to meet a whole lot of inconsistent reporting criteria. We had to provide services in ways that we ourselves felt were not really effective …”; and does she believe that Maori health providers should not have to be accountable for public money by way of audit? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Maori health providers are audited two times more than any other health providers in the country— 
Hon Member 
: Prove it. 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: —I can prove that—and Maori receive 2 percent of the health dollar. Ninety-eight percent of health dollars go to mainstream services. Everybody should be accountable for health dollars—both Maori and mainstream providers. 
Heather Roy 
: Does she accept that Maori life expectancy has improved by 14½ years since 1950; if so how can she possibly claim that conventional Western medicine has failed to close the gaps? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Maori did enjoy large increases in life expectancy from the 1950s to the 1970s but the discrepancies emerged throughout the 1980s. Today I think that 15 percent loss of lifespan is appalling and it cannot all be attributed to lifestyle factors. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why is the Minister making allegations of racism in respect of the longevity of the Maori people and Maori health when she knows full well that housing and a sound diet would be the most important things for Maori and what racist element in our society is forcing people to go down to Kentucky Fried Chicken or Pizza Hut or McDonald’s and have Fanta and Coca-Cola by way of refreshments? Why does she not stick to the facts? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: As usual that member has a lot of rhetoric but no evidence. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: Does the Minister accept the Oxford University study that shows that the typical lifespan of pre-European Maori was less than 30 years of age and why does she not accept that conventional Western medicine is still the best and only way that Maori health will improve? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I have not said that conventional Western medicine is absolutely not appropriate for Maori health. However I also believe that there are ways of improving health other than that and accept also that there other issues that come into play when we are discussing Maori health disparity. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: When the Minister said that my question was all rhetoric without evidence would she accept that my evidence is herself? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I do not think I need to account to Mr Peters for my eating habits; nor do I expect him to account to me for his drinking behaviour. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In respect of the Minister’s comments about the lack of evidence and her statement that Maori health providers are audited two times more frequently how does she explain the Hawke’s Bay health trust run by Apera Clark where dog food spa pools barrels of muttonbirds two digital televisions and household groceries were all paid for by taxpayers’ dollars filtered through that Maori health provider? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Those issues were addressed after an audit when it was decided not to renew the contract. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Despite her view being coloured by the fact that most of her colleagues would be three sheets to the wind on a wine biscuit could I ask her why she is putting racism out in front of Maori people as some sort of excuse for their current condition when she knows full well that she would be providing leadership—for the first time for a long time—by referring them back to a sound diet? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: We also know that sound diet requires a particular income. 
Rodney Hide 
: Will she dissociate herself and her Government from the claims made by Otago University researcher Dr Papaarangi Reid on National Radio last Monday that Maori life expectancy has been appropriated by Pakeha and that in doing so Pakeha have been “very very greedy”; if not why not? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I do not have any ministerial responsibility for remarks that other people make. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Earlier in answer to a question the Minister associated herself with Dr Papaarangi Reid’s analysis by saying she had listened to it; now she is not prepared to comment on it. She actually linked herself into it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is wrong. The Minister certainly addressed that question. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have a different point of order in that the Minister said she was not responsible for other people’s comments but my colleague Rodney Hide had asked whether she would dissociate herself from those outrageous comments. She does have responsibility for whether she would or would not dissociate herself from those comments. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is wrong. [ 
Interruption 
] Order! I am about to send somebody out. The Minister certainly addressed that question. 
Dr Lynda Scott 
: As it obviously costs more to feed a family on things like Kentucky Fried Chicken and takeaway meals is the Minister saying that if one is poor one cannot eat well and that is the cause of obesity amongst Maori people? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: Again that member has no evidence that Maori people are eating Kentucky Fried Chicken or whatever. It is noted in the disparities report that poverty is a key issue in terms of Maori health. 
Rodney Hide 
: Does she accept the analysis provided by Dr Papaarangi Reid on National Radio on Monday morning on  
Mana News 
 that the problem of foreshortened Maori life expectancy is “not because of smoking” but rather because Pakeha people are being fast tracked through the waiting lists; if not why not? 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: There is evidence that Maori people are not receiving access to treatments in the same way as non-Maori people. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table United Nations records in respect of the longevity of Bulgarians Greeks and South Koreans all of whom have a lower income level than the Maori people. 
Document not tabled. 
Heather Roy 
: I seek leave to table two documents. The first is a  
British Medical Journal 
 article dated 23 August this year “Tribal health policy in New Zealand” in which the honourable Minister states: “We soon found ourselves tangled up in audits having to meet a whole lot of inconsistent reporting criteria.” The second document is  
Our Health Our Future: The Health of New Zealanders 1999 
 a report by the Ministry of Health which states: “The improvement that has occurred in Maori life expectancy at birth since 1950 has been described as spectacular.” 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon TARIANA TURIA 
: I seek leave to table a document on life expectancy trends from 1950 to 2000 by ethnicity. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I just want clarification if I may. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave has been granted. No one took exception. 
Rodney Hide 
: Well I just hope it has got the problems— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No leave has been granted. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: I seek leave of the House to table the pages within  
The 
Oxford History of New Zealand 
 referring to the lifespan of pre-European Maori being less than 30 years of age. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table those pages from that book. Is there any objection? There is.