O'Connor Simon; Tolley AnneSIMON O'CONNOR (National—Tāmaki): Had I had to defer I probably would have deferred to Greg O'Connor. Look I just want to make another quick contribution—I suspect before we start hearing attempts to shut the debate down. I might actually come down to the whole Down syndrome thing at the end—obviously the question's to the Minister.But can I acknowledge those hundreds of people who are writing in and I certainly sit on the side that does believe—and actually not a belief: knows that this bill does allow abortion up to birth. It's a fallacy to suggest otherwise. This does allow it. Infrequent—I think the Minister has touched on that. I'm certainly not here suggesting we're going to see thousands necessarily. But this bill does allow it; a little similar to another death bill that progressed through this House last year. The meanings that are put through in clause 11 to what are to be the requirements or criteria are meaningless medically and legally. Suggesting that a clinician—who actually doesn't have to be a doctor strictly speaking because it now talks about health practitioner—is to consider by the way the gestational age of the fetus sounds great but considering" is not actually an imploration of any nature. So actually I do have concerns for the community at large.I obviously and it has been articulated before have concerns for the babies because as I keep saying they're human beings and I'm a great believer in human rights. I do have real concerns for the Down syndrome community in particular for two reasons. There are many many instances in fact—some of it was noted on The Project last night; I have to say it's actually good to see the media doing at least one story that actually tries to comprehensively look at this book rather than acting as a tool of propaganda. But they're saying actually the pressure that's on parents with Down syndrome children to abort—and I think it's weird in the most polite way I can put it to think that it's magically going to stop post - 20 weeks. In fact all it's going to do is continue—that pressure will now continue.I would just ask the Minister if he takes a call—I'd love him to get his officials' advice and tell me in the last 10 years how many Down syndrome children have been born in Iceland. I think I could count the number on one hand.Hon Ruth Dyson: Rubbish!SIMON O'CONNOR: And someone says "Rubbish!" because everything that Ruth Dyson doesn't like is rubbish.So then—[Interruption]—and now they get upset. So I invite the Minister to give us a breakdown in recent years.Look very quickly on a couple of points I won't be supporting Jan Logie's Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 455. [Interruption] You know I'd just love it if they had that passion for unborn children—what a difference that would make that little bit of care.Jan Logie's we won't support. Unfortunately for me it just dehumanises to the nth degree. The SOP even focuses on changing the causes of death. Fundamentally in her SOP 326 the fact that actually the death of a child is to be so ignored that any crime or harm must only focus on the mother is an incredibly dehumanising element. It won't surprise the member that I won't support her SOP around women men and others—women have babies; that's a scientific fact and I'm all for clear conversation there.I will just turn my last attention to what was my tabled amendment around children born after abortion. I want to thank and acknowledge the Minister of Justice for coming and in effect correcting an earlier statement—that this does happen. Again this doesn't happen often but I would suggest to the committee that just once is conceptually enough. Most abortions at a late stage are successful—it's what the clinicians want—but it is possible and it has happened numerous times—again not saying hundreds—that the child is born; the abortion is effectively botched. So it's a bit of a concern. And I want to make it absolutely clear in this legislation that if a baby is born it is birthed that the abortion is botched—it could be a surgical abortion or a chemical abortion—healthcare must be provided to that child. And I want members to allow that to sink in: that if the abortion is botched all that this amendment is asking is that a doctor or doctors in attendance or the nurses if it's not being done surgically I'm asking—Madam Chair? [Bell rung]CHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley): I hadn't rung the bell.Greg O'Connor: Madam Chair?CHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley): I call Greg O'Connor. Just before the member starts can I just remind members that this is a very serious debate and actually people have quite deeply held views and we should all be respecting one another. And I'll remind some particular members that they cannot move their seats in order to gain advantage for interjections. And they have particularly loud voices. I call Greg O'Connor."