Public Transport Management Bill — In Committee 
Public Transport Management Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:650;Page:18630] 
Public Transport Management Bill 
In Committee 
Part 1 Preliminary provisions 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 If ever legislation needed to be given a little more time for consideration it is this bill. It is this bill for a number of reasons. It is this bill because of decisions taken by Cabinet back in February 2007—Cabinet minute CAB(07)5/3A refers. An option B was decided on yet that is not what we have here as a bill today. We then had a number of people from the bus industry take an issue to the Legislation Advisory Committee and finally take it to the Regulations Review Committee. I will canvas that issue a little more in further speeches later on but the Regulations Review Committee raised some quite legitimate concerns and sent them off to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. 
Due to what could I think be best called an administrative snafu within the Clerk’s Office or within the Select Committee Office that advice did not arrive at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee before this bill was considered and then deliberated on. I would have thought that this matter alone was a serious breach of process if something as important as the Regulations Review Committee feels that it needs to write to a subject select committee on an issue and raise some matters. I will go through those matters in quite some detail as we debate this bill. I will certainly refer to paragraph (a)(i) in clause 52 “Regulations” and to some other matters. 
I do not think I have known a time in the history of this Parliament when this sort of thing has happened to a Regulations Review Committee type of letter raising serious concerns that has been sent to a select committee. It was written back in March of this year—it was actually written on my birthday 6 March. For whatever reason it did not get through to the relevant select committee; I do not think we know why that piece of advice did not get through to us. The select committee under the chairmanship of Mark Gosche quite rightly went ahead and finally did its deliberation and consideration. National members tried to move and I certainly moved in that committee that this bill be at least sent back to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. I also gave a watertight commitment that National would facilitate consideration to all be done in 1 day. I gave the watertight commitment to the committee that if we brought the bill back then we would do the consideration all in 1 day and we would be able to consider it properly. We would be able to incorporate the changes that the committee felt were proper and then we would be able to report the bill back. 
I am sorry to say that not only did the Labour members vote against that motion but so too did Peter Brown from New Zealand First. Those members took the attitude that they would not let that advice get through to the relevant committee. That has nothing to do with the substantive issue and I will reflect that at this point. That is a procedural matter and that procedural matter is something that I think—[ 
Interruption 
] Doug Woolerton can bellow all he likes. He should be ashamed to be part of a team that allowed a Regulations Review Committee report to a select committee not to be considered. He would be furious if he was on a subject select committee and he thought that the Regulations Review Committee had advised it of something and it did not have that advice and then it boxed on regardless. 
In order to facilitate what I think is something that might be quite useful National would be prepared to put some support behind this legislation if the Minister in charge of the bill Annette King and the Government would support the set of amendments I am putting forward by way of a fairly extensive document because if she looks at it carefully and her advisers look very carefully then she will see that it does exactly what Cabinet in February 2007 actually agreed to. If the Minister can show me parts where it does not do that then I am happy to drop those amendments. I have put in a reasonably full explanatory note with the document. I think that the explanatory note starts on page 14 of a 23-page document so unlike the explanatory note of a Supplementary Order Paper on the emissions trading scheme legislation which says it amends the legislation this document actually has quite an extensive explanatory note with it. It tries to take the bill back to what the industry and the participants in the industry thought that Cabinet had agreed to. 
If that is what we are to do today and if this Committee was to agree to taking it back—and it cannot be all that bad; it cannot be the dreadful Tories suggesting it because it is in line with what Cabinet agreed to back in February 2007—then we would be happy to try to race through the amendments as quickly as possible. 
Hon MARK GOSCHE (Labour—Maungakiekie) 
: 
 The points raised by the Hon Maurice Williamson need to be responded to early in the debate in respect of the mistake made by the Clerk’s Office in not forwarding the normal letter from the Regulations Review Committee to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee thus not allowing us the opportunity to make the changes to the Public Transport Management Bill as it sought in the normal course. That is unusual and the committee dealt with that by meeting last week and seeking to make a special report to the House which it would have done had National members on the committee not denied us leave. So all the talk we have just heard is a little bit hollow. Maybe the honourable member was not aware of the situation and I give him credit that that was the case because he was replaced on the committee by another member. We attempted to make a special report but were denied the leave to do so. We wrote to the Minister outlining that we supported the Regulations Review Committee’s changes and would have said so in a special report but the National Party denied leave for that to happen. 
It is interesting because it is a normal procedure for the Regulations Review Committee to say that a select committee should look at this that and the other and the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee did that. We found that with the advice of officials the Regulations Review Committee’s process was agreed to with a very minor difference. So we wrote to the Minister and asked her to make those changes by means of a Supplementary Order Paper if she considered it to be necessary. That leaves the matter as it should have been left. 
To raise that matter as some reason why the bill should not proceed quite frankly is nonsense because the recommendations of the Regulations Review Committee have been taken on board as they would have been had the committee received them in the normal course of events. Had the committee received them they would have been considered and deliberated on and they would have been part of the report made by the select committee in its normal time frame. We tried to fix that last week and we would have done so had there been cooperation. All that was needed was a simple resolution of the committee. Leave was needed so that the committee could proceed. That leave was denied and that is why there is no report lying on the Table from the committee. Given that people may have to look at the  
Hansard  
in the future if the legislation has to be adjudicated on I just needed to correct that matter. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 Just let me pick up that matter again. It is not good enough for Mark Gosche to say that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee called a special meeting in the lunch break which is when it was— 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: It was in the morning. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The meeting was actually in the lunch break between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. and the member knows it. And that is all it was—a special meeting at lunch time. I was not in Wellington so I was unable to participate yet I had participated— 
Hon Annette King 
: That’s not our fault. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Actually it is because Mr Gosche called the meeting at very short notice. All I can say to the Minister is that if she were doing her job properly as a Minister should she would have made sure that any advice from the Regulations Review Committee was taken into account by the committee and it was not. 
I want the Minister in the chair the Hon Annette King to tell us of one example of that ever happening in the past. I have done some research and it is not known in this Parliament for a report to a subject select committee from the Regulations Review Committee advising that it has some concerns that should be taken into account not to have got through and for the Government to then say when the report has got through that it does not care and will not even let us have one day to look at it. 
I repeat that that was the commitment—a watertight commitment—and the chairman cannot in any way say that National has ever broken its word on any commitment we have ever given to that select committee. We have always stuck by our word. We said we wanted the bill to come back to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for just one day so that we could look at knitting in the changes advised by the Regulations Review Committee and that we would then report it back as is. It still could easily have been back before the House as needed. It could have easily gone through given that the Prime Minister says we are going to box on into September and probably even into October as a House. So there was simply no need for the urgency and the rush. It is simply an example of appalling process. I do not think that any Parliament anywhere else in the world other than maybe Zimbabwe would tolerate such a— 
Hon Annette King 
: Rubbish! 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The Minister keeps going on about this being rubbish but she does not have a single example of such a situation ever occurring before. I have asked about it and I can tell members that the advice given was that the best way to resolve this matter was for the committee that had heard all the evidence to look at it. The Minister should remember that. It should be looked at by those members who had sat listening to evidence on this very matter—a matter that New Zealand Bus for example had raised with Professor Taggart whose submissions to the Regulations Review Committee concerned the delegation of lawmaking powers in the bill. 
Those are all issues that the select committee should have had the ability to decide on in terms of how and where the changes if any would be knitted into the current bill and it should have been done through a proper process. Otherwise we are saying that the select committee process is a complete farce. The central issue was not put before us. Again I agree that it was not anyone’s fault from the parliamentary side of it in terms of any political party but finding where the fault lies and saying: “Well OK we’ve now uncovered a massive snafu in the process— 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: It’s all fixed. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Mr Gosche keeps going on that it is all fixed as though Labour has the right to decide what is fixed and what is not. This shows the sort of a steamroller dictatorship that this country is in. “All fixed” says Mark Gosche “like other members of the select committee you don’t count. You don’t get to vote. You don’t get to have a say.” That is what he is saying to members of the select committee. He is saying that we do not get to do that—that it is all fixed because Labour has decided on doing something which is a cosy little deal with the Minister putting forward a Supplementary Order Paper. 
Where is the democracy? How does the Minister think the dozens and dozens of people who came to that select committee and made genuinely serious submissions on the bill will feel about the fact that an issue that is central to this legislation was not considered because we did not know about the Regulations Review Committee report? And how does she think they will feel about the fact that the select committee chairman Mark Gosche said: “Well let’s not worry about it. Let’s not have the committee see it through.”? 
It is not as though there is urgency as such for this bill to go through. This sort of issue has been floating around in the system for some time. In fact Cabinet agreed to this particular legislation in February 2007. We cannot say this has been rushed legislation because Cabinet agreed to it 18 months or more ago. Suddenly in the very last week when Labour members were trying to bang through a whole lot of stuff under urgency they realised there was a snafu. Then the chairman Mark Gosche has the absolute cheek to say: “Don’t worry it’s all fixed. We”—Labour that is—“have decided how it will be and how it should be fixed.” 
I say on behalf of the National Party that we find that a complete affront. Labour got the Minister to do a Supplementary Order Paper and it is all done. We do not count and we are not even allowed as members of the select committee to hear about it. 
Hon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 I advise the member that we are not in urgency. The House is having a normal sitting. Maybe the member was not told because unfortunately he has been on leave—or absent—as National’s spokesperson on transport for at least 2 weeks. It is since he told the people of New Zealand that they would not mind paying $50 a week— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I never said that. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: Oh yes he said it. It is in the transcript from Radio New Zealand National. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Have a look. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I have read it and read it and read it. He said he does not know of one person who would not be prepared to pay $50 a week in tolls. He has been silenced by Bill English. He is furious with Bill English. He is very close to joining the ACT party because he is so furious about the way he has been treated as the spokesperson for transport. 
I thank the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee Mark Gosche for his excellent chairing of that committee. I thank the members of the committee who participated in a constructive way. I point out to the people who are listening today that this bill is for the taxpayers the ratepayers and the passengers of passenger transport. If they listen to Maurice Williamson they will find that there is one person or one group of people he has ever cared about—the owners of the bus companies. He has never had a policy that has passenger transport at its forefront. He never talks of passenger transport. He talks roads roads and roads. He does not care what the public said in submissions. He goes back to what the bus companies say. 
Eighty percent of the money that pays for our passenger transport comes from taxpayers and ratepayers. They want to make sure that the money available for passenger transport is there for the benefit of the passengers to give them a decent journey and access to proper transport. All we hear from Maurice Williamson is about the process. We heard the explanation from the chair of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and he put on the record what the process was. I tell Mark Gosche that I believe that that was the proper process. He did his best to rectify a mistake not made by the committee but as Maurice Williamson himself said “made by the politicians.” Mr Gosche did his best to rectify that; he called a special meeting to go over it. But because Maurice Williamson was not there and could not be there he believes that somehow one should not count that meeting. Then when they got the opportunity the National members denied leave for the report. It is a word that starts with “h” that I am not allowed to use when we have an Opposition member stand up in this Committee who rants and raves about the process and then we hear the Opposition deny leave for a report to come back to this House. Well I have to tell Maurice Williamson that he will have to do a hang of a lot better than that if that is the only argument he has. 
Maurice Williamson has taken two calls on the process. Why does he not get to the substance of the bill? The public of New Zealand deserve decent passenger transport. We might argue about the level and the amount of money. I know the Green Party has always argued for more and we are balancing that with the needs in transport. But we have a common goal in that we want passengers to have a good journey a safe journey an affordable journey and an accessible journey and this bill enables that to happen. It enables there to be accountability for the money that taxpayers and ratepayers put into the passenger transport system and enables us to have integrated ticketing—something Bill English said would not work. I say to him that if he knows a bit about transport let us hear it because when he interjected on the second reading speech it was obvious he did not know anything about the bill. Having interjected he got out of his seat went and got the bill and read it for the first time. I tell the National members to put the public first for a change instead of their mates who they think might give them some money for their election campaign. I tell National to put the public first when it comes to passenger transport because they deserve good passenger transport in this country and that is what they will get from this Government. 
KEITH LOCKE (Green) 
: 
 The Minister is correct when she says the Green Party is always arguing for more public transport. We will continue to do that and the Public Transport Management Bill will help us to do so. It is a very good bill. It will help regional authorities across the country to properly plan and provide public transport particularly in the bigger cities where one needs to have integration of the various bus services. The Minister mentioned integrated ticketing which is quite important to that as well. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons from the Green Party does have some amendments to this bill on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in her name. Some of them are under Part 1 and I will explain them. Essentially they are to allow the regional authorities to plan the whole bus service and its connections with trains etc. in a way that fits passenger needs. At the moment there is a distinction between subsidised services and commercial services. That does not give councils control over the issues of when and where services are run and the timetables for the commercial services are often out of sync with those for the rest of the system. The amendments that Jeanette Fitzsimons is moving under both Part 1 and Part 2 address that. 
Under Part 1 an amendment to clause 3(2) inserts paragraph (ba) which “confers powers on regional councils to require all or any public transport services in their regions to be provided under contract with them and consequently to discontinue any commercial public transport services provided in their regions that are subject to such a requirement”. An amendment to clause 4 elaborates on that. Essentially that does not mean that one knocks out all the commercial services; some services may continue to be unsubsidised on very popular routes. There is not the same requirement to subsidise them in order to get an operator to bid for them and take them on but there will be a requirement on the commercial operator to tie them in with the whole system. 
In the report back on the bill from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee the Labour members noted that local government in Auckland is united in supporting the addition of option C which is essentially what I have described in Jeanette Fitzsimons’ amendment. The report back stated: “We also received letters of support from other metropolitan regional councils supporting Auckland’s position.” I think that is true. The Greens would have written something like that as well if we had been represented on the select committee for that bill. We would have been very keen to do so but having only six members in the Green caucus means that we cannot be on every committee for every bill. But that does not mean to say we do not think this is an extremely important bill for the progress of public transport. 
That is particularly the case in the big metropolis of Auckland where I come from—and I know Mark Gosche who spoke earlier comes from there too. We have been grinding away on trying to improve public transport in Auckland. The patronage of the bus services has increased and the next step is to plan them better increase their frequency increase their interconnection and have integrated ticketing so that people can hop on the buses very quickly with their single ticket hopefully in an electronic form. I think bus patronage will go up substantially if that is the case. But at the moment some people do not use public transport because of the lack of connectivity—they are waiting between bus services too long etc. This bill is going to address that. I know that the people on the Auckland Regional Council are really keen to promote public transport. All the planners are ready to go and once this bill is passed it will make a big difference to public transport in Auckland which is particularly important. 
There was a question in the House earlier about the price of oil—an exchange between Michael Cullen and Jeanette Fitzsimons. As the price of oil goes up—and although it may be dipping a bit now it will continue in general to go up—and as demand outstrips the supply of oil worldwide we will need to have better public transport systems in place. 
PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 New Zealand First supports this bill with the amendment in my name. 
David Bennett 
: Whose name? 
PETER BROWN 
: In my name. 
David Bennett 
: Who is putting it up? 
PETER BROWN 
: The member over there should learn. He has been here for 2 years. There is an amendment on the Table in my name. I have put it up. 
David Bennett 
: Really? 
PETER BROWN 
: Yes. 
Charles Chauvel 
: The National Party supports it! 
PETER BROWN 
: I think the National Party should look at it. I do not know whether the member over there can read but he should take a damn good look at it and pay a bit more attention to what goes on in this Committee and certainly pay a bit more attention at what goes on in select committees. 
We do not believe that going down the Auckland Regional Transport Authority line is the right way to go. It is not necessary in Wellington it is not necessary in Christchurch and it is not necessary in Queenstown. The full contract system works in many other provincial areas because that is the only option but we believe the Auckland problem could be solved with forward-thinking as they have in Christchurch and in Wellington. When the Infratil people the owners of New Zealand Bus came to us I have to say that I was absolutely immensely impressed by their enthusiasm their determination and their competence. So we are amending this bill to allow for the private operator to have some say in the way the bus network works in Auckland. We are not prepared to go down the track where the regional council dictates what is what because we value enthusiasm determination and competence and we think this bill—[ 
Interruption 
] Certainly as I understand it the Greens are going to move an option C; if option C comes into being then it will stifle those three attributes. 
We know Auckland needs integrated ticketing and integrated services. We know it needs a bundling of services and we think those essential qualities can be achieved by dealing directly with the bus companies. I know that Auckland has had its problems in the past but I believe there is a new will within the bus companies—in New Zealand Bus in particular but also in some others—to improve things for the public. New Zealand First is not prepared to stifle that enthusiasm and that ability to change or amend things by supporting the Auckland Regional Transport Authority approach. New Zealand First will be opposing the bill if it in any way shape or form embraces option C. 
In Part 1 the part we are dealing with now there are a number of amendments in my name. They are minor amendments—technical amendments—and I know there are similar amendments in the Minister’s name on her Supplementary Order Paper 248 I think it is. We have to make a choice and New Zealand First is determined to stick with the amendment in my name on behalf of New Zealand First because we think it will improve the bill. The amendment will give the bus companies a fair go—a fair crack of the whip—and it will allow the Auckland Regional Transport Authority to have the umbrella-type structure it wants but it will be compelled to deal with bus companies. As I said earlier we are not prepared to have a regime in Auckland—even if it is not the capital city it is a major city when it comes to bus transport—dictated to by a regional council with no option and no obligation. 
What concerns us is that the Ministry of Transport undertook a study with a consulting group and with the Auckland Regional Transport Authority and did not make that information known to the bus companies nor even to the select committee. We think that is the wrong way to go. There was some notation in a letter to the select committee but that was all. 
PANSY WONG (National) 
: 
 Talking about process and procedure is important in Part 1 because although the Minister is trying to bluster that this bill is all about passengers the bill clearly states that it clarifies and extends the function and powers of regional councils. That is why National took the report from the Regulations Review Committee very seriously. 
I want to put some facts right. A special meeting of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee was called in a hurry as we heard from the Hon Maurice Williamson. Even after he had given a watertight guarantee that the bill could be referred back to the Regulations Review Committee and come back in a day the chair and the New Zealand First member disagreed. They called another meeting to consider the special report that our committee was never meant to deliberate on. So we met to consider the report but once again Labour and New Zealand First ganged up together to try to ride roughshod over us. The reason why National cannot agree to a deliberation on the special report is very very simple: we have major concerns that the recommendations from the Regulations Review Committee were not agreed to by the officials. 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: What are they? 
PANSY WONG 
: It is really disappointing to hear that the chairman of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee is not familiar with the content of the special report and does not realise that the officials did not agree to all the recommendations. 
For a start out of the six recommendations made by the Regulations Review Committee three—one two three—have been taken up by the officials and that is a worry in itself. Those recommendations include the deletion of the requirements for plans the deletion of the ability to add to the definition and the clarification of circumstances. The officials said that yes they would agree to those recommendations but one recommendation of the Regulations Review Committee is about the deletion of the ability to add to controls by regulations unless there is clearly a need. The Regulations Review Committee said that unless a need was clear and that people knew beforehand regional councils should not be able to introduce a change. 
But the officials do not agree to the recommendation being adopted. The reason is that they want to restrict the regional councils’ power to adopt a control in a relatively short time without the need to amend the primary legislation. Let us listen to this very carefully: this bill consists of a clause that would allow regional councils to introduce and adopt a control in a relatively short time without the need to come back to Parliament. That is a huge huge power to give away and the officials want to minimise that power by recommending the addition of a provision requiring only that the Minister of Transport should consult regional councils public transport operators and the New Zealand Transport Agency. 
We all know by now that whenever consultation is used in this way it usually means that the ministry has decided on a course of action. It says it will go out to consult but that does not mean that it will actually adopt the results of the consultation with operators and all sorts of sectors. We all know by now for example that before this bill came into Parliament it was consulted on widely and the sector agreed to option B but actually option B+ is being adopted in the final bill. 
So there was a very good reason why we have stuck to our agreement. We agreed to the meeting but we cannot agree to the deliberation of these recommendations particularly— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is the member calling again? 
PANSY WONG 
: I will just clarify that. We agreed to that short meeting we considered those recommendations but we cannot agree to ignore a very significant recommendation from the Regulations Review Committee not to give a power to councils to introduce a control at short notice That is abuse of authority. 
National continues to be very responsible in making sure that process and procedure are being adhered to because after all this legislation has the implication that regional councils could exercise a control that could infringe on private property rights. We have talked about how private bus operators could work long and hard to develop a route into a commercially viable state but a council might be able to introduce controls etc. to make it commercially not viable and then use that excuse to withdraw the route. Then ratepayers and taxpayers would end up paying more. 
National has very good reasons to be very suspicious of this legislation. When the bill was first introduced into Parliament its purpose clause clause 3 stated: “The purpose of this Act is to contribute to the aim of achieving an integrated safe responsive and sustainable land transport system.” It took us a lot of effort and deliberation to reintroduce the word “affordable” and that word has now been reintroduced into the purpose clause of this legislation. There was a hidden agenda in the Labour-led Government—once again—with the aid of the Green Party and possibly to a certain extent New Zealand First to drop the word “affordable” and to make commercially viable routes unaffordable in order to make sure that public transport might become unaffordable from the point of view of ratepayers or taxpayers in terms of subsidies. We could have bus routes that are really working well at the moment but because of this desire to have overall control over every service ratepayers and taxpayers could end up paying a higher subsidy—not for better services and not for services that are responsive to passengers but maybe just for planners who like to have a grandiose idea of how public transport should be administered or planned. So National is very happy that at least after long deliberations we have introduced the word “affordable” back into the purpose clause of this legislation. 
Part 1 and Part 2 are really all about the controls authority and powers that will go into the transport authority. That is why the process and the individual provisions are very very important. It is just as well that National has been there every step of the way; otherwise we would have ended up with a public transport system that was not affordable because of that word not being included in the original purpose clause of the bill. Can one imagine that in New Zealand we could dream of implementing a public transport system that could be unaffordable for passengers ratepayers and taxpayers just because some planners had a grandiose vision of how the public transport service should be run? 
I want to put the record straight. Unfortunately the advice from the Regulations Review Committee went missing. We are not blaming anybody for this but we agreed in good faith for the bill to be referred back to the select committee so that we could examine those powers and controls. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 As we have debated the Public Transport Management Bill some serious issues of process have come up. The Transport and Industrial Relations committee a select committee that had functioned quite well for a number of years had a number of difficulties with regard to the information that was filed in front of it. The way that some parties on that select committee acted in respect of information and of their voting status and the way that the select committee was not given due entitlement to discuss and consider all the issues are really a reflection of what we are seeing from this Government. 
The New Zealand First - Labour Government is a dying Government. This Government is in its last days and it will do anything to pass what it sees as being its legacy for New Zealand. It is a legacy whereby the Government has not actually achieved the goals that the people wanted their Government to achieve. The legacy is built around personal ambition and personal reflection—not about the issues that count for New Zealanders—and it is based not on honesty and truth but on fallacy and the deception of the public through a number of pieces of legislation. 
This bill is another example of such legislation. It is an example of Labour rushing things through saying one thing and doing another thing. It is another example of Labour making an agreement with the commercial players in an industry then changing its mind just at the time that it wants to enact legislation. It is another example of how New Zealand First works with industry and also with the Labour Government when it needs to can do and wishes to. The bill is tainted by both political parties that are together on this bill having changed their tack to the detriment of passengers in the Auckland area especially. 
There is an issue in public transport and there are some major players there that the public need to be aware of. Those players are firstly the passengers themselves who need a public transport system that provides them with alternatives for their transportation. Secondly there are the players in the industry who provide a lot of the transport networks and opportunities. Thirdly there are the regional councils who have a vital role to play in providing some direction to the services. All those parties need to work together and it is the Government’s job to be the glue in between all of them and to provide some solutions. 
The Government had a solution which was agreed to by everyone concerned. But then suddenly Labour decided it had a better idea. Maybe it was influenced by the Greens. Maybe it had to do a deal with them and they tried to get a higher public transport component in the deal which is why option C became a viable option. Then we had another option that sort of came out of the headwind of New Zealand First for some unknown reason. The movement has been away from what had been glued together as an agreement between the main parties and now we see a political debate between the ideals of what the Government wants in terms of total control and what New Zealand First is talking about with regard to the bus industry having its own mandate. 
Let us go back and discuss this issue in a proper way in order to get a common solution that is for the benefit of public transport users in Auckland. Let us go back and look at the solution that was proposed and agreed to by the people involved. That is what the Government needs to do. We do not need to be debating a bill that reflects just one ambition or one desire and does not take into account the reality of what could be found to be a common solution. We face that real dilemma here today and it is to the shame of this Government. This Government is passing legislation without due regard to what it could actually achieve. The Government is trying to pass legislation to give a mandate to its supporters and to try to pay back people who have supported it. New Zealand First and Labour will be known as a Government that tried to pay back its supporters in the last month of its term and they will go down together as parties that have been doing that together. That is a tremendous shame because we believe that there is the option of implementing what the parties agreed upon that we should go back to what everybody had agreed upon as a workable solution and that that could actually provide the options that public transport providers and users wish to see provided. 
When we look at the procedural aspect of what happened in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee we see that a mistake was made. There was not the information provided and the process followed that one would normally expect and the Regulations Review Committee took the very unusual step of writing to our select committee and informing us of that. A special meeting was held about that issue and the process involved left a lot to be desired. I do not blame my chairperson Mr Mark Gosche. He was under instructions I think from higher up in the food chain of the Labour Government. He would have been told that whatever happened it was up to him to get this legislation through. He would have been told not to worry about taking the approach that he would normally engage in to the select committee process. 
Mark Gosche knew that he was not doing the right thing but he had to do it because he was told he had a deadline to meet. He had only 2 weeks of House sitting time left and he needed the bill to be passed before that deadline. There was no reason why Mark Gosche needed to call that meeting so quickly. There was no reason why he would want to push the legislation through but he was told from on high that this bill was one thing Labour wanted to get through in its dying days and that it was his job to beat the process to go above the process and to just do whatever was required so that the legislation before the Committee today would be passed. 
It is a shame when someone uses the political process in that way. Why would people want to use the political process of New Zealand in a manner like that just to fulfil their private ambitions of passing legislation just to pay back their supporters or just to pay back the interests that some parties in the New Zealand First - Labour Government feel they need to? This legislation is not about looking after passengers. Passengers need support and direction; they do not need a Government that just goes to one side of the argument. There are players involved in the decision making on this issue. Those players had together come to a decent solution that was in the best interests of passengers yet the Government has ignored that. The Government has gone beyond that. It has abused the process of the select committee and it has abused the process of this House effectively in doing so. The Government has done that just in order to pass its own legislation. 
Mark Gosche’s career which has had high pinnacles in this House will now be in tatters after he had to use the select committee process in that way. He will not be a happy man—he is better than that and he knows he is. He could have dealt with this legislation in another way: one that actually satisfied all the parties involved. His problem was that he ran out of time; he had only 2 weeks in which to pass this legislation. The Government has run out of time; it has only 2 weeks left. It knows that so it is trying to do all the little quick-fix solutions that it can in its remaining time. It is just a shame to see a career like that of Mark Gosche being abused in this political environment to fast track legislation that needed time to be debated and that needed to go back to the select committee so that we could relook at the issue and come to a full solution that would actually be in the best interests of the public transport users of New Zealand especially those in Auckland. 
Public transport users need that kind of support and they need a Government that will provide solutions listen and be ready to work in the best interests of all the players—not just in the interests of certain political agendas and parties. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I want to carry on a little from where I got started in the first couple of calls with regard to why National has put up a series of amendments to the Public Transport Management Bill. I make it absolutely clear now that if the Government were to support the amendments we have put up we would support the legislation. I want to make it even clearer. I believe—I truly truly believe—that the amendments I have put up are a complete and absolute reflection of what the Government agreed to at Cabinet in February 2007. I say that because I have looked at the Cabinet minute I have looked carefully at what it says and I believe that my amendments reflect exactly what Cabinet agreed to. This is not the National Party running its own agenda or—as some of the grubby little comments I have heard coming from some members suggest—some bus company’s agenda. I say to the Minister that if she can find anything in the amendments I have put up that is inconsistent with Cabinet’s agreement in February 2007 then I will accept that we are wrong. 
I repeat so that people listening out there can understand what I am now saying that our amendments are to try to implement what I think was a proper decision—that is option B which then got cannibalised during the process of drafting up the legislation to an option B+ and is now in danger of getting cannibalised even further to becoming option C which is what the Greens want. 
For the sake of the poor old drive time listeners out there who will not have a clue what these options are let me try in a nutshell to give members of this House and the drive time audience a bit of a lesson about what is going on here. There are two forms of bus service in any city. If we take Auckland for example we see that there are those we call commercial services where a private sector operator like the very good Howick and Eastern Buses in my electorate—and even in yours I think Mr Chairperson—operates. They decide that they will run those services because they can make some money by carrying passengers and charging them for it. They are commercial services and for those commercial services they get no subsidy whatsoever. They just do it like any other company out there like a taxi company or a supermarket decides to operate its business. 
Then there are what we call contracted services. I say to those members of the public who understand how the public transport system works that there are specific routes and specific times of day on those routes where it is not commercially viable for a bus company to operate. If it did it would just lose money and go broke—no one would do it. So there needs to be some form of a public passenger transport subsidy paid for those routes. 
Again National is fully supportive of that. We understand that if one wants a viable integrated across-the-network operation one cannot just have buses running between 7 and 9 in the morning and then suddenly nothing until 4 o’clock in the afternoon. So the regional councils are given very large sums of money—$350 million I think in this year’s Budget—to use as public transport subsidies. They go out and say that they want to contract with bus companies to provide certain services and in return they will pay a per-passenger subsidy in order to make it viable. 
I want members of the House to understand that those are two very distinct worlds. There is a commercial world where companies put some skin in the game where they invest in their own buses where they decide what they will do and where they go out and charge what fares they like; and then there are the contracted services where the Government or by way of its proxy Government agency the regional councils says that it wants certain contracted services and it will buy them by paying subsidies. 
There is nothing wrong with those two worlds. What is wrong is the degree to which this legislation will now come in as heavy-handed jackboot legislation—and if we go to option C it will not only be heavy-handed jackboot legislation but it will be almost Trotskyite-type stuff—where we will be able to dictate to a private sector bus company not just the stuff that we are contracting with them and paying them a subsidy for. Again that is quite proper and quite right—he who pays the piper should call the tune and if I am the regional council with several tens of millions of dollars of subsidy to subsidise the route then I should have that power. But this legislation is also looking to at least encroach into the stuff that is not being contracted. If option C from the Greens gets in it will give the regional councils total authoritarian power to dictate to a private sector operator who has put his own money at risk and who has built his own business. 
I will finish this speech quite quickly—it will be my last call on this part. All I want to say to the Minister—I am sorry if it sounds like a cracked record but I repeat again—is that we are not trying to get the National Party’s view through these amendments. The changes I have put forward by way of my quite extensive amendments which have had a lot of thought and work go into them— 
Hon Annette King 
: Ha ha! 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Well the Minister laughs. Basically if she thinks my amendments are not worth supporting she is saying that Cabinet which decided on these very issues back in February 2007 was a bunch of dunderheads. This will be really good—I ask those people listening to the debate tonight to listen carefully when the Minister takes the call and to listen to her tell us why my proposed amendments are not a reflection of what Cabinet agreed to. 
There is one last bit that we will get into a lot more in the debate on Part 2 but again I go back to the process. You see when the Regulations Review Committee wrote to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee which never received that correspondence it suggested some amendments that the committee might like to consider. I understand why if those amendments were as simple as “delete clause 10” that would not need any deliberation or consideration—it is just saying that clause 10 is wrong and to delete it. If that is the sort of recommendation that had come to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee I accept that the Minister is right and I accept that the chairperson is right: we could have just done it by a lunchtime meeting and said “Well they say ‘take out clause 10; insert this; delete that’.” But the recommendations from the Regulations Review Committee have some things of a nature that I think members of the committee needed to put some work into. An amendment to clause 10(1)(a) was: “clarify the relationship between controls adopted under clause 12 and regional public transport plans to ensure that controls are subject to a consultation procedure before they are adopted.” 
So the recommendation was not to “delete clause 10” or “add the following two words”. It was a recommendation of a very general nature which the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee should have had an opportunity to sit down to consider and ask how best it could clarify that relationship. It is a nebulous recommendation quite broad and far-reaching—and there is more. Yes the committee went on to say we could amend clause 12 to include provisions but it then said we could insert some criteria into clause 52(a)(ii) to again clarify the circumstances in which a commercial service may be exempt from these controls. 
I say again to the Minister in the chair the Hon Annette King that those words are not definitive. They need some thought. How do we clarify that? Members of the select committee who had considered this legislation and listened to all the submissions should have had the opportunity to sit for one sitting day—given that this has been in the pipeline since at least February of last year—and ask how those words could be clarified. 
Some other recommendations that came from the Regulations Review Committee were far more definitive and I think they are fine. One recommendation is to delete clause 10(1)(j) unless a clear need for expeditious amendments to clause 10 by regulations is demonstrated. I think that is fair enough. Another recommendation is to amend clause 12 to include provisions for a merits-based appeal against the imposition of a control by an affected person. Well that is interesting. I do not think it is all that definitive. I think there may be members of this House who have a different view on what provisions could go into that. 
I repeat that this is a very sad day for the democratic process. I ask the Minister and we will watch her like a hawk on this question whether my amendments reflect what her Cabinet agreed to—not the National Party the bus company or anybody else whom the dreadful accusations might come flying at us from. Keith Locke from the Greens should listen carefully to this. This is what Cabinet agreed to in February and I have put up those amendments in order to say that if that is where we go—and we agree with what Labour members put together as a Cabinet and the minute reflects it—then National will actually support this bill in both the Committee stage and the third reading. 
We were told about the stalking horse. Because Peter Brown made it clear he would not support option C we were told almost that night: “Oh guess what? The Minister is doing a deal with the Greens. They’re going to stick up amendments to get option C. The Minister will make out that she had to go with it you know because the Greens are doing it.” 
Hon Annette King 
: No we won’t. We’ll just go with it. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The Minister says they will go with it. Labour members are going with it so now they have circumvented their old mates in New Zealand First whom they no longer need. They can slap them on the scrapheap and say “OK you are not supporting us on this.” We knew all along that option C was going to come either through a Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister because that most certainly was being considered— 
Hon MARK GOSCHE (Labour—Maungakiekie) 
: 
 It is just amazing that three National members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee are getting up and flapping their lips for the sake of it without making a single ounce of sense in the debate so far. They are concentrating on something from the Regulations Review Committee that I will reiterate. The Regulations Review Committee sent a letter. It got lost in the system. It was not the committee’s fault it was not anybody’s fault but it got lost in the system. We dealt with it last week. We gave notice of the meeting the week before. 
Hon Annette King 
: A whole week? 
Hon MARK GOSCHE 
: A whole week. We said we would take this very simple stuff and look at it and we did and it took us 25 minutes. We had a report from the officials that said they agreed with what the Regulations Review Committee said and that they would change the Public Transport Management Bill accordingly. There was one change they had an option on: whether to delete a clause or to put in a consultation clause. They have gone with a consultation clause. We have had all this debate from the National Party’s three spokespeople on transport—who have not got a clue. 
We heard during the course of the submission process that there are three major cities in this country that spend big on public transport: Christchurch Wellington and Auckland. All support the bill. Christchurch says: “We’re doing this now. Pass the bill so we can legitimise it because we’ve been doing what the bill outlines anyway.” Wellington said: “We need the bill as it is and we want you to pass it.’ Auckland said—and this is something that needs to go on the  
Hansard 
 record because every territorial local authority and the regional council in Auckland agreed which is something that Aucklanders love to hear because they have not heard it for such a long time—that all of local government in Auckland agrees a further option needs to be added to the bill. It is called option C. 
Hon Annette King 
: It’s only an option. 
Hon MARK GOSCHE 
: It is only an option and Auckland can use it if it wishes to. All of Auckland agrees on it except for the National Party. 
So what did National members put up instead? Aucklanders are going to like this. Everybody says that if we are going to have a viable public transport system we should have integrated ticketing and fares. Well Bill English has had his way. He has rolled Maurice Williamson who knows that to be the truth. Maurice has had to put up an amendment that says no people can have other tickets as well. That is what his amendment says. Bill English has won the day and Maurice has been rolled again as he was on his toll roads. 
I have to ask myself what has happened to Maurice Williamson. I have always known him to be extremely strong in his views and knowledgable on transport. Nobody else in National comes near him yet Bill English who would not have a clue because he has never seen a bus in Dipton has won the day on this one and integrated ticketing would go under National. National members also ask us to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the owners of these companies but not make them accountable. I know that one of Mr Williamson’s amendments would say that ferries are exempt from disclosing that information. So the taxpayer and the ratepayer give those companies loot and they do not have to tell them what they do with it because National’s amendment would do away with that. 
This is the real joke—2-hour bundling of services. Now we know how it works at the moment. Someone can register a commercial route in Auckland that gives people one bus in the morning and one in the afternoon and maybe one somewhere else. That is not the way to run a public transport system. It is a joke and National wants it to remain a joke because one of Mr Williamson’s amendments says we cannot bundle services in the way in which everybody who knows anything about public transport would bundle them. No National members say we can only bundle services for 2 hours’ maximum. What an absolute joke! National members want do away with integrated ticketing and with the ability of regional councils to have a sensible bus service train service or ferry service. National members want to hand out money to the private sector with no accountability and that is what they have come up with by way of amendments. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Absolute rubbish! 
Hon MARK GOSCHE 
: The member should read Bill English’s amendments—they have the member’s name on them—then he will understand them. We have already had a chance to look at them. Mr Williamson is saying we could have integrated ticketing but we could have other stuff as well. That is what is wrong now and it is why the system does not work. The member knows that because he has been around the world. He has seen London and how the system works there. Could Mr Williamson inform us whether London is running a system like option A option B or option C? 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Option B. 
Hon MARK GOSCHE 
: Actually option C is the one that is run in London. The member has been there on the plane so often that he should know that. 
Labour members believe in public transport. When Maurice Williamson was the Minister of Transport $18 million went into Auckland public transport. Over $300 million now goes in. That speaks volumes for National’s commitment to public transport. Suddenly National is supposed to care about it. We heard David Bennett talking as if it was the most momentous thing this Parliament had dealt with in its last 9 years. I think it is pretty momentous to fix up the legislative mess that has been sitting there for a very very long time. That is why I support the bill. I listened to the major councils from Christchurch Wellington and Auckland and they all said “Fix it.” Well we have been fixing it by putting in real money. We now want to have proper controls the ability for integrated ticketing and financial accountability for people. 
When Aucklanders were getting only $18 million out of the Government we probably were not worried about disclosure because there was nothing to disclose. There were no bus services to speak of. Those services were run down; they were a wreck. It was what Maurice Williamson gifted to Auckland—a public transport system that was carrying fewer passengers in 2000 than it was in 1955 when I was born. That was his victory. He made sure that public transport was destroyed and that is because he does not believe in it. He gets a car. A bus is not something that he recognises—those big maroon things that go past the window outside his office. I have had to tell him a number of times in this Chamber that those things are buses and that ordinary people from his electorate get on them pay a ticket price and want to go into town to where they work. That is what is called public transport. National members could not give a hoot about public transport because they never use it and they could not care less. That is why they starved public transport of funds and the bus companies know that because they are now looking— 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 As we are looking at Part 1 I think there has been a lot of talk about what actually happened in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by members involved in that select committee process. One of the things that one looks for in a select committee is a transparent and accountable process in that people know what is going on and can submit in the genuine faith that their submissions will actually make a difference. The last thing one would want in a select committee is for the decisions to be made through a process that does not avail the public of that ability to make constructive criticism and provide solutions. What is the point of a select committee if there cannot be consultation? We cannot just have select committee processes that are sped up for the last 2 weeks of the Parliamentary term and then feel that we endear ourselves to the public and achieve the purpose of the process. 
A lot of people in the industry will naturally be aggrieved at the process taken by the Minister in this case and by the chair of the select committee under her instructions. I am sure that reflects the view mainly of passengers of public transport because they are the real losers in this case. It is not the bus companies or the regional council; it is the passengers that lose because the passengers do not get the opportunity to have put in front of them the best possible solution to this problem—a solution that would avail itself of a conjoint approach from Government local government regional government bus companies and also passenger representative bodies as well. I guess what the National Party finds so distressing in what has happened in the process leading up to this Committee stage is that we have actually missed out on some fundamental processes within a select committee. That means we will not have the legislation going forward that we should have had and that the public of New Zealand have been let down by this Parliament once again during the term of this Government. 
If we look at what has happened to some of the conceptual ideas that went behind the options that were portrayed throughout the discussion on this bill we see that it had been a long enough process but the reality of what people wanted to see happen in the legislation was not made clear. I think there were many agendas that were hidden and the Government of the day was not prepared to come out and say what it actually wanted to achieve. It went into an agreement with other parties through a Cabinet process and then did not hold itself to its word. It made an agreement with commercial operators that would expect a degree of commercial sensitivity and also a degree of respect for the agreement. This Government has shown itself not to be willing to fulfil its agreements with the commercial sector and we are seeing that publicly played out on the TV at the moment with the inability of the commercial sector and the Government to see eye to eye on how to do business deals. We are seeing that in regard to the funding of political parties. 
The commercial world operates on a different basis from this Government. It operates on the basis of accountability and honesty. What it says it does and it sticks by it. In this case we have a perfect example of a Government changing its mind—saying one thing and doing another. It will do this again in this process of the Committee stage. It will put up Supplementary Order Papers to bring option C back. It will do that again and it will do something different from what it agreed upon. There will be other parties in this House that for some unknown reason may stick with some other options. But the reality is that there was an option that was decided upon. It was a constructive decision that would have been for the benefit of passengers but it was not fulfilled. The political parties in this House need to look at that and look at the way they deal with the consumer and also the corporate sector and stick to their word. If parties agree on something they should do it. 
Hon Annette King 
: No word was given to it. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: Well if there was no word how come Cabinet agreed upon it? 
Hon Annette King 
: No word was given to them. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: So there was no agreement? 
Hon Annette King 
: There was a process of Parliament to go through. The public are allowed a say. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: But did the Minister not agree on something with it? 
Hon Annette King 
: The public have a say and this House decides. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: So what actually happened was that there was no agreement? We just had a meeting with them? 
JILL PETTIS (Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the motion be agreed to. 
Ayes 72 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 7; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 48 
New Zealand National 47; Independent: Copeland. 
Motion agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 248 in the name of the Hon Annette King to Part 1 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendments agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 3 be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2) “set standards for commercial public transport services provided in their regions” and substitute “adopt regional public transport plans which may include controls on commercial public transport services”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 3 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit the definition of  
accessibility standards 
 and substitute the following definition: 
accessibility 
 in relation to a public transport service means the ease with which passengers or a class of passengers can access a public transport service and relate to how— 
(a)information about the service can be accessed: 
(b)the service can be identified: 
(c)the service can be boarded: 
(d)a passenger can pay the fare: 
(e)a passenger can use the service: 
(f)a passenger can identify the desired place to alight from the service: 
(g)a passenger can alight from the service. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to insert in the definition of  
contracted public transport service 
 after “information” “and communication”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to insert in the definition of  
contracted public transport service 
 after “software” “ and all related hardware”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to insert a definition of “contracting requirement” in clause 4 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit from the definition of  
control 
 “authorised under” and substitute “specified in accordance with”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to insert “a contracting requirement” after “a control” in paragraph (a) of the definition of “existing commercial service” in clause 4 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to insert “or contracting requirement” after each instance of “the control” in paragraph (a) of the definition of “existing commercial service” in clause 4 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to paragraph (b) of the definition of “existing commercial service” in clause 4 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit the definition of  
performance standards 
 and substitute the following definition: 
performance standards  
means standards specifying levels of performance required of commercial public transport services relating to their levels of reliability over specified periods including levels of reliability in— 
(a)departing from and arriving at the commencement and termination points on routes registered for commercial public transport services; and 
(b)collecting passengers on routes registered for commercial public transport services; and 
(c)observing routes registered for commercial public transport services; and 
(d)meeting timetables registered for commercial public transport services (including levels of punctuality required). 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to insert in paragraph (a)(iii) of the definition of  
public transport service  
after “ferry” “harbour”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit paragraph (a)(ix) of the definition of  
public transport service 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The amendments in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to the definition of “public transport service” to omit paragraph (b) to omit from paragraph (c) “except as specified under paragraph (b)” and to omit paragraph (c)(vii) in clause 4 are ruled out of order as they are the same in substance as a previous amendment. 
The amendments in the name of Peter Brown to the definition of “public transport service” to omit paragraph (b) to omit from paragraph (c) “except as specified under paragraph (b)” and to omit paragraph (c)(vii) in clause 4 are also ruled out of order as they are the same in substance as a previous amendment. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit from paragraph (c)(vi)(C) of the definition of  
public transport service 
 “primarily for the purpose” and substitute “substantially as part”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit paragraph (c)(viii) of the definition of  
public transport service 
.  
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to omit the definition of “quality standards” and substitute a new definition is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit from paragraph (b)(i) of the definition of  
registered commercial public transport service 
 “the details of the variation are not recorded in the register” and substitute “if the details of the variation have been removed under  
section 36 
”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit the definition of  
traffic management 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 1 as amended be agreed to. 
Ayes 61 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Part 1 as amended agreed to. 
Part 2 Regulation of public transport 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I wish to advise members that the Government has issued a financial veto certificate in relation to an amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to omit clause 15. The amendment therefore is out of order and no question will be put on it. However the veto certificate may be debated in the context of this part. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. My understanding is that the financial veto and its provisions are to avoid the Crown being exposed to any financial liability. If you look at the amendment I am talking about then you will see that it may expose some regional councils to some liability to pay some compensation for declining but there is nothing in that that would force the Crown to have to compensate any regional council for that. If we set this as a precedent then we could allow the financial veto to be used on any legislation that may impact on revenues for any territorial local authorities regional councils or whatever. 
I would really like the Speaker of the House to give a more considered ruling on this because I have always understood that the financial veto applies only where there is a direct relationship and an exposure for the Crown. There is no mandatory requirement for the Crown to settle any compensation if they are declined. 
Hon Annette King 
: Where do you think they get their money from? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Well there is the Minister chipping in on a point of order which she should not be doing—and her microphone is live and she should shut her mouth but frankly— 
Jill Pettis 
: Oh Maurice! 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Actually she should. And as this is a point of order that member should shut hers too. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member will please be seated. First of all the Minister could not be heard on the microphone because I had my finger on it so she could not be heard. The other thing is that I would remind members that when there is a point of order on the floor it is terse and to the point and no one says anything other than the member addressing the Chamber. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I will leave it at that and I would not mind if it is possible someone giving us a clarification because I do believe that this move expands the use of a financial veto way beyond what Parliament and the Budgets of Ministers of Finance have to include. The Government funds a whole lot of organisations. If we were passing legislation that might make another organisation have some money shortfall and mean that the Government would have to come and pick that up then immediately the financial veto would kick in and there is no end to where that might lead. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the member. I just refer the member to Speaker’s ruling 115/1 and I will read it for the member’s benefit: “During the committee of the whole House the Government will be able to make a submission to the chairperson that an amendment or a change proposed to be moved appears to have more than a minor impact on the fiscal aggregates … and 24 hours’ notice has not been given. If there is doubt about whether a proposed amendment may have more than a minor impact … and 24 hours’ notice has not been given the proposed amendment or change should be ruled out. The onus is on a member proposing to move an amendment to a bill … to give 24 hours’ notice if there is any possibility that the amendment may have an impact on the fiscal aggregates …”. So the Speaker’s ruling is quite specific but it does not stop the member from debating the issue. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I think that is an issue. When I was writing this stuff I did not have any—any—belief that this amendment has an impact on the fiscal aggregates and I think it would be very hard for a member to believe it would. It does not have any mandatory requirement for the Crown to pay anything to anybody. I would have put it in 24 hours sooner if I thought that this would mean an exposure to the Crown. It is not. I am just saying that this is an incredibly long bow to draw because if for instance the Arts Council or the ballet or something else found it had a shortfall because of some legislation then the Government could say it was ruling it out because it might have to pick it up at some later stage. There is no mandatory requirement for the Government to pick up any of the regional councils’ costs for declining a service. That is why I think that this issue needs to be referred to the Speaker. I am happy for it to be left in abeyance and for the veto to sit for now but I would like some further advice brought to the members of this Committee because it goes well beyond what I thought the financial veto does. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the member for his contribution. I just say that I have made a ruling on it and I have given the member the Speaker’s ruling. I might also add that the amendment may have more than a minor impact and that is straight from the Speaker’s ruling. The member may of course debate the issue here and I am happy to move on with that now. 
JOHN HAYES (National—Wairarapa) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I would draw your attention to Standing Order 320(1) and for your benefit I will read it out: “A certificate relating to a bill may be given only when the bill is awaiting its third reading.” In that context and in the context of Standing Order 320(4) can I suggest as Mr Williamson suggests that the matter be left until a later date. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I tell the member that I have already made that decision. I refer the member to Standing Order 319(1). 
Hon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 As the financial veto is now part of the debate—with you having made your ruling Mr Chairman—perhaps for the benefit of the member who has raised it I should say that the reason given for the veto and for the Government not concurring is that exposing regional councils to the liability to pay compensation for declining to register commercial services may expose councils and therefore the National Land Transport Fund to significant financial risk. As the member knows the majority of the money for passenger transport services comes through the National Land Transport Fund. That is the reason the veto has been provided. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 We now move into Part 2 which is by far the real substance of the Public Transport Management Bill. I will just allude to some factors about the amendments that I have proposed. If members want to follow along then they are welcome to look at my explanatory notes that follow my amendments starting on page 14. In these notes I make it clear that the amendments will allow for—and I stress that they will allow for—integrated network planning under regional public transport plans or RTPs. They will allow for integrated ticketing and integrated fares but not to the extent of restricting individual operator discounting policies or requiring without adequate compensation an operator to incur reduced fares from its usual rate as a result of integrated fares. These are I think sensible provisions. 
I want the Committee to just focus on how the bill got to where it is. I am told—and I have no reason to disbelieve it—by the Bus and Coach Association and by a number of bus operators that a series of meetings and consultations occurred back in 2006 at which the Government quite properly said that it was concerned about public transport and its management and about how it could get the best value for the dollar and that it would embark on putting in place a new regime. The Bus and Coach Association and its various members were fine with that. They met and cooperated in what was a fairly extensive process of consultation. If that is not true then I would like the Minister to pick that up at any stage and say that it did not happen. 
What happened at the end of that consultation and what was then taken to Cabinet in February 2007 was a position that—although some players were slightly aggrieved with it—all players in the Bus and Coach Association as a representative of all the bus operators could actually live with. It was called option B and had some reasonably sensible provisions in it. It likely went a bit far for some players but as far as the Government was concerned it was about the best compromise and it was the right way to go. The bus operators who came to those meetings and consultations walked away confident that that was what was coming as legislation so did the Bus and Coach Association. But when the bill finally hit this House a few months ago they were simply gobsmacked to see that what the actual legislation—the words in the bill—said was not close to what the agreed position had been. They were pretty disgruntled about that. They actually started to blame officials which I said was a bit unfair. They said that some real tangles had obviously occurred in the drafting of the legislation from when it was agreed with them in terms of how it would be compared with the bill as introduced. They then began a process of trying to make submissions to talk to various players and so on to suggest that the bill could be refined and brought back to the agreed position but they really got nowhere. 
What I found interesting was that along came the spectre of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority. Let us not muck around the bush here: this is the Auckland Regional Transport Authority’s bill—OK? This is not a bill for the bus company in Taihape. This is not a bill for even the Christchurch base. The people in Christchurch in Red Bus Ltd think the operation they have down there is absolutely superb. They have integrated fares and ticketing and they did not need this legislation to do it. This legislation is not needed in Dunedin in Invercargill or in Eketahuna. This legislation is to appease the left-wing acolytes of the Auckland Regional Council and the Auckland Regional Transport Authority which want to take total and absolute control. 
When I met with the chairman of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority—and I have a lot of time for Mark Ford; I think he is a super guy—he told me something that gobsmacked me. He said that the authority was OK with the bill now because even the Bus and Coach Association and all the operators agreed with it now. I was really taken aback. I thought I had made a bit of an idiot of myself here because I did not think they did agree with it and were confident the bill still needed some change. So I came back to Wellington with my tail between my legs feeling a bit embarrassed thinking: “Wow!”. So I called up Raewyn Bleakley at the Bus and Coach Association and asked: “Have you guys changed your position on the Public Transport Management Bill?”. She answered: “No.” I said that I understood there had been some meetings and that the association agreed that the bill was fine. “Absolutely not.” she said. I told her that that was what I had been told and referred to one of the operators a Mr Ritchie from Ritchies Coachlines. She said: “Yes to be fair he did but the rest of the operators present at the meeting”—and I want this to be really clear and put on the record—“didn’t agree and in the end we agreed to a final position that we would put to the Government and even Mr Ritchie of Ritchies Coachlines agreed to that.” So I came away from this situation really staggered that I had been told by the Auckland Regional Transport Authority that the Bus and Coach Association and its members all agreed to this almost Trotskyite legislation only to find out that that was not true. But then here is the real rub: New Zealand First decided—and I think quite properly—not to allow the bill to go even further which is what the amendments that were going to be put up by the Government would do. 
If members look at the minority report to the bill they will see that the Labour members were wanting to move even further to put unbelievable delegated powers into the hands of the regional council—powers that would mean it would almost be able to determine what colour buses could be painted and what the drivers’ hats looked like. In the end Labour could not get that through the select committee because Peter Brown did what I think was the right thing and said that New Zealand First will not support option C. 
Rodney Hide 
: Why did he do that? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The member can speculate on why he did that. He can even ask Mr Brown. 
Rodney Hide 
: He told you. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No he told the select committee something. What I am saying to the Committee now is that when we got this bill sorted and Labour realised it did not have the numbers the tricky little deal became quite clear within hours of that. It was to report it back with option B which is option B+. We were told originally that the Minister was going to throw some amendments forward but what has happened now is that the Greens have come in and put forward these amendments. I guess if anything the National Party is outraged at the process. The Labour Government is always on about consultation saying: “We consult. We listen.” So it went out and did a proper consultation process. Well done! It then got to a position where everybody involved thought an agreed position called option B was going to happen. Cabinet then passed a whole series of agreements which I refer to in my explanatory note. Cabinet minute CAB(07)5/3A refers to “original Option B”. That is what the Government agreed. All players were happy. 
Even the National Party—I give that commitment—would have been OK with that bill. But it did not happen that way and when the actual aggrieved parties which do feel very aggrieved at the process tried to get this poured back and took what I think is a staggeringly good submission from Professor Taggart to the Regulations Review Committee about the constitutional impropriety of allowing the delegated powers of authority to direct what is going into this bill and actually are a breach of it what happened? That stuff considered by the Regulations Review Committee did not even get referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. It did not even see the light of day when we were deliberating and considering the bill. We did not even know that the Regulations Review Committee had had that review or had written to us. So when we asked that the bill be recommitted to the select committee it was a matter of: “Oh no not on your nelly!”. Labour has sat on this legislation for over 2 years from when the consultation started—2 years—and it would not allow a one-day select committee meeting on what came back from the Regulations Review Committee. In fact we would have taken only a couple of hours to take what the Regulations Review Committee put in place. I want to repeat that and be strongly on the record about it. 
The amendments I have proposed are not what National would have put up. They are not what the Bus and Coach Association would like. They are not what someone’s mates or someone who is funding a political party want. These amendments reflect absolutely and directly the original decision taken by the Labour Cabinet. I have said to this Committee—and I repeat it so it is clearly on the record—that if the Minister can show why these amendments do not reflect option B I will be very interested to know why because we have had advice that this is very much in line with that option. 
What this whole process calls into account is the whole way legislation is done. It is just wrong to go and consult with affected parties to get their views to get agreement to bring stuff to Cabinet to show a Cabinet minute and to say: “We’ve got your views; we think they’re incorporated.” and for everyone to go away happy then when it finally comes time for the legislative process to actually fast track some of those changes to do it without their knowledge. I understand why there is a severe level of anger from the various operators and from the Bus and Coach Association—a professional organisation deliberately there to represent the views of its operators—at getting completely and absolutely shut out of the process. I say to members including Rodney Hide that they should look very closely to the amendments I am putting up. They are not done lightly; they are done seriously to try to reflect something the Government would do and National would support it. 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 It is great to stand up on behalf of Auckland and Auckland residents and consumers of public transport. And that is what we are debating here in this Committee—not what a bus company wants not what a political party might like but what is in the best interests of Auckland and in particular as Keith Locke will agree the very fine people of Epsom. As a consequence of the Greens’ Supplementary Order Paper supporting option C there will now be greater competition for contracts for public services and for public transport. It will mean that new entrants can come in. We know they are waiting in the wings and those operators who offer the best value for money will win the contracts. We as consumers of public transport will get better reliability better frequency better time-of-day coverage and more convenient services and flexibility to meet customer needs. All this means better value for the $94 million in public subsidies. It is no wonder the dominant operator is worried that option C will pass because now there will be genuine competition for services. 
I heard Maurice Williamson say that the ACT party is supporting Trotskyite socialism but I have to say that full contracting models operate in Adelaide Brisbane and Perth and when I last looked they were not Trotskyite socialist places. Christchurch itself is 98 percent contracted and to be honest in the period 1990 to 2005 Auckland moved from being the second-highest user of bus transport in Australia and the New Zealand region to the second-lowest on a population-patronage ratio. The needs of customers in Auckland have not been met since the Transport Services Licensing Act 1989 came into force with its two-tier commercial and contracted bus systems. That legislation was another example of Wellington bureaucrats getting it wrong when it comes to Auckland. Aucklanders cannot have fully integrated electronic ticketing until we get this change to full contracting. Patronage now is about 52 million; Auckland wants to see it up to 100 million by 2016. 
I notice that the dominant players did not come waving cheque books looking to pressure me in the last few days. They must have known it would not do any good. They pinned their hopes on New Zealand First after being promised by New Zealand First that they could deliver but as everyone discovers that is not a very smart idea. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Allegations have been made by Mr Hide that people came with cheque books to influence New Zealand First’s position on this legislation. I take total exception to that—absolute total exception. Not one iota of a suggestion of that sort of carry-on has been made to anybody in New Zealand First. It is absolutely disgraceful. We have a member over here who tackled Television New Zealand Ltd (TVNZ) with tapes and transcripts that were found to be false. He is firing allegations out left right and centre. I insist that he withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Can I say to the member on my left that it would be out of order to suggest that a member takes payment to act in a certain way and the member must be careful not to do that. I would caution the member to desist in the way he does that and to withdraw. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I withdraw. 
Peter Brown 
: And apologise. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Shut up Peter. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This is a very sinister serious accusation. I cannot think of anything more serious— 
Dail Jones 
: Repeat it outside. 
Peter Brown 
: As my colleague says if the man has not got the gumption to stand withdraw and apologise then I challenge him to say that outside the Chamber—I challenge him. I want the withdrawal and apology. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I asked the member to withdraw and he did so and I asked him to desist and he told me that he would. I would like to leave it at that but I just caution the member that he cannot in any way imply that members take payment. That is totally out of order. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Thank you Mr Chairman I will leave that— 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: They do not let the ACT party speak at any time. What is going on? 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Would the member please be seated. I call Mr Brown. 
Peter Brown 
: Perhaps you could give me some guidance Mr Chairman. What has a member got to accuse another member of for an apology to be received? He has accused people of being—effectively—on the take. I cannot think of anything worse. I have heard people be compelled to withdraw and apologise for a lot less offence and I believe that I am entitled to an apology. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is the member taking offence? 
Peter Brown 
: I said that from the word go. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: OK I now ask the member to apologise. The member has taken offence. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Well make up your mind. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member Peter Brown has taken offence the member Rodney Hide will apologise. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No the member will apologise first. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: No. 
Peter Brown 
: Get the words out. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Both of you just calm down. Just feel relaxed and when you are feeling relaxed relax even more both of you. I have a yellow card in here. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. You asked me to withdraw and I did. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Yes I know you did but I have to say Mr Hide that Mr Brown has taken great offence and has asked that you apologise as well. Having listened to him again I have accepted that position. So I ask the member to apologise. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I refuse. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: You leave me no alternative Mr Hide. I ask you to apologise. Then the member leaves me no alternative; the member will leave the Chamber. 
Rodney Hide withdrew from the Chamber. 
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Just as a matter of clarification. What is the status of Mr Hide’s vote and the vote of the ACT party in this Chamber? 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: They can still vote. 
DAIL JONES 
: They can still vote? 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Yes they are still entitled to their vote. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 As we look at Part 2 of the Public Transport Management Bill which talks about the regulation of public transport there are some queries that anyone viewing the legislation from a distance would have about the actual process that has been engaged in here because there was clearly an agreement between the parties involved in this case—the Minister the regional councils and the public transport providers such as the bus companies. There was clearly an agreement. 
The Minister interrupted earlier saying there was no such agreement that it was still up for public consultation to make a final decision. Well that was not the case. All the parties involved believed there had been an agreement and an agreement in substance. It actually went through the detail of what they wanted to do. That actually went to Cabinet for approval so there was an agreement. One does not have an agreement like that and decide 6 months later that one wants to change it under the guise of public opinion—there was an agreement. 
What Mr Hide referred to was the way in which the voting changed in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee which many of us found very perplexing including the Government members of the committee who did take some time to understand what was actually going on. But Mr Brown made it quite clear why he changed his mind and it was an interesting insight into how New Zealand First operates in the political process. 
The public will no doubt be very much concerned about what they are seeing in this bill because not only are there questions about political process there are questions about why legislation that is supposed to look after public transport in our biggest city in all regards is being pushed through without the genuine process of consultation without an agreement in principle being carried through and without the parties involved being able to come to a solution that is constructive for all involved. This is not a question where one has to take sides. It is not an issue where one has on the one side the public transport providers and on the other side the people in favour of public transport such as the Auckland Regional Transport Authority which has to manage it. It is not as if there is a major divide there. Both parties have come together and reached a solution. 
Yet the Government of the day will not do what both parties have agreed upon. The Government of the day the New Zealand First - Labour Government is doing what it thinks is best. It is not doing what the parties that are important in this decision have actually agreed upon. That is the problem we encounter in this situation. There was an agreement. It was an agreement that would work for the industry the Auckland Regional Transport Authority and for the public transport users. That agreement was made in substance and if anything it should be enshrined in law. It is not up to the Government of the day to use public consultation as an excuse for changing an agreement that it has already made. It is not up to the Government of the day to go out there on some whim and decide that it has a better idea than what the players in the industry have who actually agreed on a concept. Political parties should not change their motives halfway through the electoral cycle of the bill going through the select committee. This is something that is simple. 
There was an agreement. It went through Cabinet level. It has been supported it is valid and it should be enacted. That is what the National Party would want to see this Government do. We do not want to see this Government make up its own mind and say it believes in something that it knows is not what the parties agreed upon. We want to see the Government stand up and deliver what the parties had agreed upon. We challenge the Minister to do that. The Minister knows there was an agreement. The Minister cannot come into this Chamber and say there was not an agreement and use the idea of public consultation to get away with changing her mind. The reality is that parties have relied on that agreement but it has not been enacted here. 
We have very different interests within this political environment. We have the Greens who will be very much in favour of public transport for example. It will say how public transport is important and how we need to provide alternative forms of transport within our biggest city. It is right; an agreement was actually made. There was a solution that all the parties agreed upon to support that concept. Yet we are not enacting it. We are not enacting what the parties had agreed upon. What can be sillier than that? We had a solution to an issue—a big issue—and we are not supporting it through the legislative process. How can the Government of the day in good conscience stand up and say it represents the people of New Zealand especially the people of Auckland when it will not do what is in the best interests of those people when it will not do what it has as a commercial agreement agreed upon in a commercial setting and through its Cabinet process? It is using the guise of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee to get out of that agreement and out of the performance of that agreement. That is a shame and it is a shame for all those political parties in the Government because they have not held their word. 
The great losers will be the public transport users of Auckland because they will get a result that the main players know will not be effective. The main players know what would have worked and they came to that solution. That is all the National Party wants to see happen; we want to see the agreement of the main players enshrined in law. The Government of the day has the opportunity to do that. It should pull this bill take it back to the select committee and do what was rightfully agreed upon in the first place. 
KEITH LOCKE (Green) 
: 
 I hate to disagree with the preceding speaker but I have been talking to players around this bill for some months as have other Greens and it is quite clear that the councils in Auckland the Auckland Regional Council and the Auckland Regional Transport Authority all favour option C and have favoured that system of contracting out the network from the very beginning. It is true that the Auckland Regional Transport Authority and others have always considered that option B is better than the present system; it allows more specification in the contracts settlement of disputes through the courts and all the rest of it but it certainly favours a fully contracted system and was submitting very strongly on that through the whole process and rightly so. 
Maurice Williamson referred to Ritchies Coachlines. Some of the smaller players had been somewhat worried about the system up until now with the bigger players shutting them out because it is so easy for them to snatch a commercial route and use the big profits off that route—a main route—to cross-subside a contracted subsidised route undercut the opposition and keep market dominance in a place like Auckland. This legislation is levelling the playing field and allowing efficient operators to compete properly which is I think the point that Rodney Hide was making for ACT. 
The operators are a bit short-sighted in not supporting option C. Although in the short term some of the bigger operators might lose some of the cream they are getting through dominating routes by being able to charge more or less as they wish by not having to show their books and making undue profits in the long term a fully integrated system—buses connecting properly and buses connecting with trains and ferries—where people have more confidence in the system will mean more throughput for all the operators and more money for their shareholders. So I think they are looking at the issue in a very short-term way. As we stated before we cannot have proper integrated ticketing without connectivity of routes timetables the electronic swipe cards etc. all worked out by the regional authority and with the regional authority having the power to put that in place. 
There is another issue in terms of the information. Option C provides for all the information to be provided by the operators so that the system can be properly planned. The amendment being moved by Jeanette Fitzsimons in Supplementary Order Paper 249 that will implement option C requires the regional authority to have a plan and to have the contracted services as all part of that plan. If that is not done properly the operators too have a right to appeal against that and they are required to be very open about patronage throughput and everything else so that that planning can be done much better. There has to be a good service with proper frequency proper timetabling and proper connectivity and we cannot achieve that under option B. We have to go to option C. 
Under option B an operator can drop out of commercial service with 90 days’ notice. That can knock out the whole connectivity of the system. There has to be a fully contracted system where one operator cannot just—effectively—muck up the whole system on its own initiative. Anyone who is really serious about a good transport system in Auckland Wellington and the other big cities should think seriously about supporting the amendments put up by Jeanette Fitzsimons. They will be effective. 
It is interesting that ACT which is a party known for free competition and all the rest of it has understood that good companies will benefit out of this. They can bid on a level playing field for the contracts and we will get a much more efficient system. It is important that we pass option C today. 
PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 When the bill first emerged at its first reading it identified three options: A B and C. Option A is the status quo and option C is the fully contracted model. But the Government bill in its explanatory note was very damning of option C. There was a paragraph or more that really made it quite clear this was not an option the Government favoured—it was very very damning—and option B was the option it favoured. New Zealand First has always supported option B but when we got to select committee and the submissions came in particularly from the industry players we found out that there were two option Bs: option B as in the bill and option B as was apparently agreed or understood in the earlier discussions the industry had with officials. It was the first option B—the one that did not make the bill—that the bus companies in particular favoured and that rested comfortably with New Zealand First. That has been our position from the word go. We have not changed our mind. We have not been bullied into thinking something else and we are now in a position where we favour the option B that was agreed between the players and the officials before it came into the bill as against option C which the Government is supporting because of the Greens and about which the Government in the explanatory note wrote very very damning comments. I do not think I have ever seen an option or an alternative written up in such a derogatory manner. It was effectively dismissed by that bill. By reading the explanatory note no one would have ever thought the Government would ultimately be supporting it. So if there is any change in this House it is from the Government. It is going with the Greens the Maori Party and ACT. 
John Hayes 
: And New Zealand First. 
PETER BROWN 
: Wake up man! Wake up! Members should listen to him. Members should give him a pinch. He is not quite awake. He should take a Berocca. The Greens the Maori Party and ACT were not represented on the select committee. Members of those parties did not even take the trouble to go along and listen to what people had to say. They just dreamt up a Supplementary Order Paper that fits with the Government’s change of heart and quite clearly that Supplementary Order Paper will get through the House thanks to 10 or 12 MPs who have not studied it in the least— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Or heard the submissions. 
PETER BROWN 
: —or heard the submissions or in all probability spoken to anyone in any detailed form. In the course of these submissions a number of submitters were very enthusiastic about their industry—very enthusiastic. They felt passionate about it. If this bill goes through with option C as it appears it will we will dampen that passion that enthusiasm and that determination to do right by administering bus companies and buses. We will destroy it. A successful bus service needs four qualities. It has to be reliable convenient comfortable and affordable. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: And it has to be safe. 
PETER BROWN 
: And it has to be safe—five qualities. If a bus service does not have all those five qualities then people will not use it. It has nothing to do with the colour of the buses or whether they are administered or centrally controlled by the Auckland Regional Transport Authority. It has everything to do with the service that is offered. As I say those are the five qualities that a bus service needs. If we dampened the enthusiasm determination and competence of the bus companies we would be in danger of second-rate or less than adequate buses being put in that the public will not use. That disturbs us. We believe that if there are enthusiastic participants then they should be given a chance to develop that enthusiasm. That is a very simple philosophy. 
PANSY WONG (National) 
: 
 September 9 will be a very significant day. The sneaking in of option C during the Committee stage against officials’ advice and against public submissions is a very serious matter. It reflects what the Privileges Committee was hearing about the fact that the Labour Prime Minister Helen Clark did not bother to tell the public 6 months ago that she knew about evidence that she did not mention. Now we have the same behaviour when the Government introduces a bill. 
According to the Government option C which was not introduced during the select committee hearings is being brought in to enable regional councils to prohibit commercial services. However according to the officials and the Government: “Prohibiting all commercial services in a region would reduce opportunities for public transport operators to innovate and would reduce the control operators have over their businesses thus potentially undermining business confidence. For these reasons option C is not preferred.” These are the words of the Labour Government and the officials and they are set out in the explanatory note on the bill. 
During the select committee hearings right towards the end we thought that the operators were resigned to the fact that they would even have to accept an option B+. In good faith they accepted option B and that has actually got add-ons but they reluctantly accepted that and suddenly the Hon Mark Gosche the chairperson tried to twist the arms of the select committee members by saying that Cabinet did not agree to option C but that the select committee wanted that option. 
We could see that the officials were put under enormous pressure. They kept pleading with the select committee by saying that option C was a radical departure from option B and that under the tight timetable of reporting back to the House there was no way that they would be able to put together amendments and good legislation. New Zealand First agreed to that and the majority of the select committee listened to the submissions and even swallowed it and said that option B was at least what operators believe in. But National members have been firm in our principles. We did not even agree to option B+ but we thought we would try to make amendments that would be good for the legislation. 
When the bill was eventually introduced into this House Labour did not even bother to introduce its own amendment and it used the Green Party as an excuse to bring in last-minute changes to an option that the Government itself said would undermine business confidence—and it will undermine business confidence. This will amount to a confiscation of private property rights. There are bus operators out there who have worked long and hard over the years have built up their business and have made them commercially viable—but now we have councils. Of course the councils would welcome option C because it would give them total control. Who would not want that? Any public body would love to get its hands on funds and then have total control over everything. That is when the New Zealand public would start to get really sceptical. 
The true colours of the Labour Government are coming through. It would love to have total control over everything but that is not right. Public transport is for passengers; it is not for some council officials or planners to get their hands on in order to come up with some grandiose scheme. We were told that without option C we could not have an integrated ticket. Who said that? In Christchurch that is happening under the current environment. In Wellington everybody is talking about the Snapper card so why should it be the case that what happens in Christchurch can happen in Wellington but not in Auckland? Regional councils or transport authorities that have funding have the say so it is a challenge for them to come up with ideas on how to push integrated ticketing. We were told by the operators that this has started to happen. It is simply unacceptable to give the easy way out to an authority that is already holding the purse strings with an additional unlimited power to introduce any control over private operators. 
What will happen next? If the Hon Harry Duynhoven is not happy with the taxi service will that be next? Will he introduce some sort of legislation to nationalise taxi services so they can all be painted in one colour go in one direction and charge one type of fare? That is what the Labour Government and the Greens are staring down the barrel of—nationalising everything. They just cannot stand private enterprise. They cannot stand people being innovative. Actually the hidden agenda has now become very clear. In the original bill that was introduced the word “affordable” was not in the purpose statement. The majority of the select committee argued very hard to insert the word “affordable”. 
Now we understand why the phrase “affordable public transport” was not included in the original bill. Option C would mean that even if a bus route or whatever is commercially viable the regional council in its great wisdom can come up with a preference decide to remove those operators and actually start to hand out subsidies converting a commercially viable route into a contracted one that ratepayers and taxpayers would come up with subsidies for. What a ridiculous notion in 2008! Something is working but just because it does not suit the people with controlling minds—like Labour members and councils who like to impose their own wishes on others—Labour will introduce legislation that wastes ratepayers’ money increases rates and increases tax just because some of them have fancy ideas of how people should travel and how those services should be provided. 
Bus operators who do not require a subsidy have actually been able to build up a commercially viable service because they are able to attract passengers. They have to deliver the service. Why are their services commercially viable? Because they are interactive and reactive to passenger needs. If the passengers do not use those services then they will not be commercially viable. The fact that some of those services are commercially viable proves that it can be done. But a Labour Government never likes to see private enterprise making a go of it and it is always sceptical about private enterprise wanting to make a profit. Actually there is a profit element in an individual who wants a high salary to reflect and reward their services. Profit is a good motivating factor for people to be innovative. When passengers decide to use those services we should encourage them not discourage them. 
I can just see 9 September being a very important day. It will be the last nail in the coffin of the last days of this Labour-led Government. This is an outrage it is an abuse of process it is abuse of the consultation process and National will not have a bar of it. 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister for Transport Safety) 
: 
 I take a brief call to answer one or two of the points that have been brought up along the way. The previous speaker Pansy Wong—an Auckland member I understand—did not seem to realise that one of the reasons for making quite a change of emphasis in the Public Transport Management Bill was the major input of Auckland local government and the submissions that were made which clearly had an effect on the way the bill was thought of by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and by members of Parliament who were prepared to listen to submitters. 
With regard to the comments the member made about the word “affordable” I say that if one looks at the report-back version of the bill one sees submitters raised the use of the affordability concept and it was added to the bill. Of course that aligns this legislation with the Land Transport Management Act which affordable public transport is a major part of. So I am very pleased that the point the member made has been taken care of. That is surely what the select committee process is supposed to be about: ensuring that improvements are made to bills. I say that in all the time I have served on select committees which is some 18 years that has been the purpose of having them. I say to Ms Wong that in my select committees and in any committee that I have had anything to do with the purpose was to improve the outcome. We actually need to take note of what is said in submissions. 
I want to address very quickly a couple of Mr Maurice Williamson’s amendments. If one looks at the ones that refer to the issue of integrated ticketing—if one looks at his new clause 12(3)(i)—one sees that any regional council if it specifies a control on commercial services in a regional public transport plan may also specify detailed controls in the plan. A control may “require the operator of any commercial public transport service to issue use and accept an integrated ticket specified in the regional public transport plan:”. So operators have to accept an integrated ticket. If one goes to subclause (6) one sees that “No control may be adopted under subsection (3)(d) to subsection 3(1)”. I then tell members to read paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subclause. I think if I was a commercial operator who was operating under a dual scheme like that I would be very much keener to take my own ticket for my own company rather than be part of an integrated ticketing scheme. 
I am very familiar with integrated ticketing schemes. In Europe they are very common; I have obviously used them when I have travelled to Europe. In Holland for example one can catch trains trams buses in some cases canal boats and even taxis all on the same integrated ticket—and it is a universal ticket used right across the country. I think that is an excellent scheme. Without having an integrated ticketing scheme that is paramount I think operators would obviously choose to have their own scheme. 
Just for the benefit of the previous speaker I say that she may like to do a bit of research and look into a company called Carrington buses which operated very briefly in New Plymouth. She may find that some of the things in this bill are actually very good provisions to have considering the history of that particular company. 
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
: 
 I think one of the answers to the integrated ticketing question is actually contained in Mr Williamson’s proposed new clause 12(6). It requires compensation if one is going to take away someone’s rights. That is what Mr Williamson’s proposed amendment provides; that is what the Public Transport Management Bill does not provide. 
New Zealand First members believe that if someone’s rights are diminished and taken away they are entitled to compensation. I say to Mr Williamson that that is the point is it not? I have read his amendment and I have understood it. Either the Minister for Transport Safety has not understood it or he does not believe in compensation. I think under the Human Rights Act and other such legislation compensation would have to be paid. So this bill is perfectly consistent with a good integrated ticketing system. As I said in the second reading debate I am familiar with the Oyster card system in the United Kingdom which is what is intended here and I look forward to it. 
I am terribly disappointed that the ACT party could possibly be supporting this Labour Party - Greens legislation. That is what the legislation is. Mr Hayes does not seem to understand who is supporting this bill; neither does Mr David Bennett who seemed to be talking about something else. This bill is opposed by the National Party and by New Zealand First. One of the reasons that I as the New Zealand First spokesperson on local government oppose this bill is that history shows us that local government taking over control of public transport means increased rates. That is what this bill will mean. If the bus system is making a loss the ratepayers will have to pay more to make up that deficit. 
I am absolutely staggered that someone like Mr Hide who purports to be in favour of reducing rates supports legislation that will increase the rates of the people of Epsom. It is quite unbelievable. Mr Williamson shakes his head and bangs his head; I will not do that as far as Mr Hide is concerned—I leave it to Mr Williamson. The bill must inevitably increase the rates of the people of Epsom because that is what happens when local government takes control of public transport. That is what happened in the past. Those of us who have lived in Auckland since the 1960s as I have done know all about it. 
When I read for the first time option C in the explanatory note of the introduction copy of the bill I could not believe that anyone could possibly support it because it says: “Prohibiting all commercial services in a region would reduce opportunities for public transport operators to innovate and would reduce the control operators have over their businesses thus potentially undermining business confidence. For these reasons option C is not preferred.” Clearly that was a well-thought-out viewpoint in the bill as introduced. I must congratulate the National Party member Pansy Wong on highlighting option C in that way. Central Auckland is better served by her than by Rodney Hide in so far as the inner-city members are concerned and clearly she has the interests of the people of Botany—is it Botany— 
Pansy Wong 
: Botany would do. 
DAIL JONES 
: —at heart because she does not want to see their rates going up either. Mr Hide is all in favour of Auckland rates going up and Epsom ratepayers’ rates going up. When we bear in mind the value of Epsom properties we realise that their rates will go up more than the rates anywhere else in Auckland City. 
The explanatory note comment that I referred to says that if we support option C we will reduce opportunities for public transport operators to innovate. Well why have a one-size-fits-all approach? That is what option C supports. New Zealand First supports innovation. The buses on these runs—especially the Epsom runs—could have computer links air conditioning music and suchlike; that innovation is possible but not with a one-size-fits-all approach which this bill supports and which ACT supports. Roger Douglas would never support this bill. I can already see a potential argument between him and other members in the ACT caucus on this decision. It is quite extraordinary. option C which New Zealand First and National oppose and everyone else supports would potentially undermine business confidence. The explanatory note says so. Some members in this Committee are supporting legislation that the explanatory note says will undermine business confidence. 
It goes on to say that option C will reduce the control that operators have over their businesses. A bill that Rodney Hide and the ACT party support will reduce the control that operators have over their businesses. Well New Zealand First is a middle-of-the-road party when it comes to economic issues and in a middle-of-the-road way we in New Zealand First say that operators should have control over their own businesses should know what they are doing and should be able to make their own decisions because private enterprise knows best how things should be done. However we appreciate that one cannot make a profit out of public transport even in Auckland and that there needs to be a mixture of public and private operators. 
JILL PETTIS (Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I have a heap of amendments and I have not got to speak to any of them. I have had only two calls of a general nature. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I call the Hon Maurice Williamson. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 The Public Transport Management Bill is broken into two parts of which the first has only three clauses. The rest is all in the second part. Thank you for the call Mr Chairperson; I would like to think that I could take two specific calls on Part 2. 
If we really focus on this bill we see that the nub of it is the level of control that the regional councils have over commercial services. The Government has tried to portray National’s amendments as opposition to integrated ticketing. I debunk that myth by asking Government members to look at my proposed new clause 12 because I am actually very supportive of the requirement for integrated ticketing. 
In the end option A which is the status quo was not working. Everyone accepts that. Even the bus companies and the Bus and Coach Association accept that. But to go to option C would have almost taken us back to the old days when the Auckland Regional Authority ran the buses. It is worthwhile doing a quick survey of Auckland members. I ask those members whether they think the buses worked well when the Auckland Regional Authority had total control. That is the question; it is not hard. Answer A is that it worked well and answer B is that it was a disaster. I ask those members to put their hands up if they remember the old Auckland Regional Authority running the bus service well. 
Peter Brown 
: Rodney Hide did. 
David Bennett 
: Peter put his hand up. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No he did not; he was indicating that Rodney Hide did. I do not think Rodney Hide did actually; that might be an unfair interpretation. Well I think that option is the clear winner because not a single hand went up. Not even Metiria Turei from the Greens thinks that when the Auckland Regional Authority had total control owning and running the bus company the buses were run well. We actually had the Aeroflot version of buses: awful dirty “take it or leave it” and timetabled however the Auckland Regional Authority liked. 
Jill Pettis 
: Well— 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No hang on. Before Jill Pettis puts her foot too far in it let me tell the Committee what her own Minister of Transport and her Government said in the explanatory note of the introduction copy of the bill: “Under option C legislation would be changed to allow regional councils to decide how scheduled public transport services are provided including retaining the status quo adopting a regime …” and so on. It further states: “Prohibiting all commercial services in a region would reduce opportunities for public transport operators to innovate and would reduce the control operators have over their businesses thus potentially undermining business confidence. For these reasons option C is not preferred.” That is what the Minister said—not the National Party not New Zealand First and not even the Greens. That is what the Minister said. It is in the explanatory note of the bill as introduced. In the explanatory note the Minister says: “For these reasons option C is not preferred.” 
Harry Duynhoven then went on to say: “Oh but we listened.” Well hang on. That would be a nice little crutch to use except that nobody wanted option C but the Auckland Regional Transport Authority. Nobody else wanted it: none of the bus companies not the Bus and Coach Association none of the operators—not Red Bus from Christchurch or others and not even some bus companies from the member’s own area. They did not think it needed to go as far as that but the Auckland Regional Transport Authority did. It goes back to the old days and the spectre of Mike Lee. Mike Lee would like the Auckland Regional Council to own the bus operation again. Let us face it: he would like it to own it. That is where he comes from. He is a terrible old left-winger who loves that ownership and control. Harry Duynhoven tells us that this Government listens but it listens to one submitter and ignores the rest. It ignores the bus companies the Bus and Coach Association and a whole range of other people. 
I want to canvass clause 12. The Minister in the chair Harry Duynhoven finds some stuff in my amendment to that clause unacceptable and I want him to tell me what it is. My new clause 12 states: “(1) A regional council may specify a control in a regional public transport plan if—” then states the conditions. We should remember that this is a control on commercial public transport. Let us say that I am a bus operator who has put my own skin in the game. I have gone out and bought my own buses I am operating a non-subsidised service and I am providing a very good product that the public likes but someone will now be able to come along and shove some controls on me even though I am not asking for a subsidy—if I were there are the negotiated powers to do so. But if I stick to my own business and run it like a trucking company is run or a courier company or a taxi company the regional council will now be allowed to impose some controls. 
Members will be surprised to hear that National is OK with that. But there need to be some conditions. I put it to the Committee that in my amendments I have translated those conditions from the agreed Cabinet position. In my new clause 12(2) I have stated: “If a regional council specifies a control in a regional public transport plan it may also specify in the plan—(a) any transitional arrangements …” that it wishes. I would like the Minister to tell me where clause 12 makes him uncomfortable. Paragraph (b) states: “the process that the regional council will adopt for determining any such transitional arrangements.” The regional council can put these things into its plan. 
New clause 12(3) is really good. It states “A control may—”. You see when Annette King was in the chair earlier on she said that National does not believe in integrated ticketing in integrated fares. Actually we think it is vitally important. A number of regimes like the New South Wales Government have tried to implement it by fiat. It was going to be in place for the Olympic Games in 2000 but in 2008 Sydney still does not have it. So the Minister cannot tell me that we can force integrated ticketing by fiat. 
New clause 12(3) states: “A control may—(a) require a minimum period not exceeding 6 months for the operation of a commercial public transport service … immediately following the commencement of—”—which is fine—and “(b) may require a minimum period of notice (which may be not less than 35 working days and no more than 65 working days) for—(i) commencing a commercial public transport service:”. So there is a notification period. If the Minister is uncomfortable with these provisions I would really like to hear about it because this is what Cabinet agreed to. I see Chris Carter over there thinking that Cabinet actually agreed to this. He is right. All of this was agreed by the Labour Cabinet; I have not heard the Minister deny that. 
New clause 12(3)(c) states that a control “may require a minimum period of notice … for withdrawing a commercial public transport service;”. Again that is right. There is a proper period where one would notify it. New clause 12(3)(d) states that a control may “identify commercial public transport services that must be registered collectively provided that each such control: (i) applies to no more than one route;”. One can put these controls in but one can do it only route by route which is actually quite sensible. One cannot have one control for the whole of Auckland. If one wants to put a commercial service control in it is done route by route. Each such control also “(ii) applies to that route for one period in a day of no greater than two hours of continuous service;”. One can have more in the day but not for more than 2 hours for that particular control. Subparagraph (iii) states: “specifies no greater service requirements than in the applicable regional public transport plan and supplementary documents for that route;”. This all sounds good. 
Let us move on to new clause 12(3)(e) which states that a control may “require compliance with specified quality standards and performance standards:”. Is anyone opposed to these amendments? They are in my amendment. I would like to hear from someone who is opposed to them. No? New clause 12(3)(f) states that a control may “require any commercial public transport service to be an integrated service:”. I thought that was what the Government was always on about—that it wanted a greater service. Well this provision will require that. That sounds good. Someone must have an objection somewhere! 
New clause 12(3)(g) states that a control may “require the application of common emblems or signs …”. The Government was really hot on this. The bill was originally going to force one to paint one’s bus whatever colour was decided by the regional council. Howick and Eastern Buses which has always had beige and maroon buses might have been told to paint its buses Labour Party red. 
Jill Pettis 
: Whatever! 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Jill Pettis would have loved that. 
As I was saying my amendment in new clause 12(3)(g) refers to common emblems and signs but not common colour schemes—it would not force the buses to change colour.  
New clause 12(3)(h) states that a control may “require the operator of any commercial public transport service to use integrated technology specified in the regional public transport plan:”. Is that really bad? It is exactly what the Government said it wanted. In other words one puts out a public transport plan and—in contracting with commercial services—one puts in the control which has to be complied with. That is good. I do not understand what is wrong with that. 
Here is the nub: new clause 12(3)(i) is a cracker. It states that a control may “require the operator of any commercial public transport service to issue use and accept an integrated ticket specified in the regional public transport plan:”. According to Labour National is opposed to integrated fares and ticketing yet here in my amendment we have “require the operator of any commercial public transport service to issue use and accept an integrated ticket specified in the regional public transport plan:”. New clause 12(3)(j) states that a control may “set out and apportion integrated fares on a reasonable basis without undue discrimination and in accordance with the following factors: (i) time: (ii) distance travelled …” and so on just like airlines do with their fare construction units that break down an end-to-end fare. 
The Government was trying to say—and I think it had a crack at it but Dail Jones fixed it really well—what new clause 12(6) states which is that “No control may be adopted under subsection (3)(d) to subsection 3(l): (a) that would prevent inhibit or deter any operator of a commercial public transport bus or ferry service from offering customers its services under a separate ticket … and a discount for one …; and (b) requires the operator to incur costs or a reduction in revenues for which it will not receive adequate compensation …”. It says that if one is going to force integrated ticketing on a person who has already built up a business has some skin in the game and has created some intellectual property around it then—just like if someone had started a supermarket of his or her own volition and the Government decided to come along and nationalise supermarkets—there has to be a property right and yes it may be able to negotiate it out. A good negotiator will negotiate it out and say: “We don’t think that property right should stand but we want something in return for it.” That is what this amendment does. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 As we look at this legislation I think Maurice Williamson raised a very good point in regard to what the Government is actually doing. It came into this House and proposed option C and is now going all out to make sure that this Parliament votes for option C when in its written document the commentary on the legislation it said it had thought about that option and decided against it because it had an agreement with the parties involved. Now the Government is changing its mind going against its pre-agreed process and coming down and saying it wants an option C for political expediency. Why would the Government do that? Why would it come into this House and change its mind and go blatantly against what it had gone out and said publicly it had agreed upon? There can be only one reason and Maurice Williamson has an explanation. The Government in its general policy note in the explanatory note stated: “Option C: Empowers regions to prohibit commercial services. … Prohibiting all commercial services in a region would reduce opportunities for public transport operators to innovate and would reduce the control operators have over their businesses thus potentially undermining business confidence. For these reasons option C is not preferred.” Let us say it again: the Government would not favour option C because it would reduce the control operators have over their business. OK I know it is hard to believe that the Labour Party would say that but that is what it said. It also said that it would potentially undermine business confidence. That is an even more unbelievable thing for the Labour Party to say because it has killed business confidence in this country over the last 9 years. But at least it said “business confidence” in one document that came out. 
Why would the Government now go against those very reasons in this Committee? Well there is a simple reason and it is that this Government cannot be trusted. It never says what it thinks. It never says what it believes; it just uses the smokescreen of this Parliament to go about its business. This is just one big game for those members. The Labour Party knows what it wants from day one and it just uses legislation and uses this House to put a slant on it so that the public out there can feel that it can be happy with it. The Parliament is used as a means of getting parliamentary and public support so that people are compliant and then just at the last minute the Labour Party does what it had planned all the way through. It goes against public opinion. It goes against what is right what is just and what is fair. 
Labour just does what it has to do to pay back its supporters and we see that is part of this bill when we are debating Part 2. The clauses in Part 2 are being used by the Government to try to appease the public to say that it has thought about it and gone through a consultation phase. But the real guts is what it will pass on the day and that is in option C. That is underhand politics. That is the use of the political process for personal gain. That is the Labour Party through and through. That is what the public is coming to expect in the last 2 weeks of a dying regime. It will try to pass a legacy of legislation. It can see the horses coming through the gates. What is it doing? It is a scorched earth policy. It is trying to take this country down as it goes down. Well there are only two things that will go down in the next couple of months and that is New Zealand First and Labour. They are both going down together because the public has seen through them. The public has seen through the little shenanigans that this Parliament has been put up to by Labour and it is having no more. 
I will come back to Part 2. I tell the Minister to not put up another option C and some Supplementary Order Paper. I say she should stick to the bill. She should stick to what the Government agreed on. She should not come in here and put through some legislation that she always wanted to put through but did not have the guts to put up in the first place and then not let the Parliament debate it. This is just an attempt to use what is sensible legislation dealing with the sensible issue of public transport for political gain so the Labour Party can pay back its supporters. It is a shame when Parliament is used in that process. The public sees right through Labour. 
Hon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Education) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
PANSY WONG (National) 
: 
 Part 2 is a substantial part of this legislation. I encourage the Minister the Hon Harry Duynhoven who very kindly took a short call last time to give us an assurance. The officials advising the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee had problems coming up with drafting requirement recommendations for the last-minute push for option C. When the officials had problems changing the bill from option B+ to option C within the time frame we suddenly saw that a Supplementary Order Paper with three double-sided pages was introduced by the Green Party. How do we know there is no technical problem? Who wrote this Supplementary Order Paper? We know that the officials advising the select committee said that in no way could they provide the drafting or the changes to get the bill from option B+ to option C. So we want the Minister to assure us that Parliament has not been misled into passing a bill—another like the Electoral Finance Act—that will lead every lawyer in town to line up smiling at the bank after charging $500 an hour because every operator will challenge this legislation. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: They could drive a bus through it. 
PANSY WONG 
: Absolutely! And I tell the Hon Maurice Williamson that all the buses will be painted in certain colours; all the buses will be lined up to drive through this Supplementary Order Paper. I want to share with listeners the fact that operators are now seeing their good faith being broken because they thought the select committee had adopted option B+ but they now suddenly realise it is option C. 
Let us look at one of the new clauses included in the Greens’ Supplementary Order Paper new clause 15A which is to be inserted after clause 15: “Exclusion of regional councils from liability to pay compensation for contracting requirements”. I think North Korean leaders and Chairman Mao would be very pleased with a provision like that. Subclause (1) states: “Nothing makes a regional council liable to pay compensation”— 
Hon Member 
: Might be listening! 
PANSY WONG 
: —yes Chairman Mao will still be listening turning in his grave; he would be very proud of this Labour communist Government—“to any person for—(a) including a contracting requirement in a regional public transport plan;”. Here we go; this is serious. 
Under this legislation a regional council could decide to eliminate a bus service a commercially viable one that did not require ratepayers’ or anybody’s subsidies and the bus operator would lose a property right—the operator would not be compensated. Boy—I think that even Zimbabwe North Korea etc. and some of the governing bodies in those countries would be very proud of this Labour Government and the Green Party. 
This legislation is ridiculous it is incredible. In the Committee stage in this Parliament option C is being imposed and we are including a requirement that where bus operators lose their right to run their services on a commercial basis they will not be entitled to compensation. But the fact that this amendment has been introduced in such a hurry means that nobody can guarantee—unless the Minister is prepared to take a call and guarantee—that those bus operators will let themselves be bound by legislation like that. Once again we are seeing a Government handing out millions of dollars because litigation cases will be taken by all those operators. How can a democracy like New Zealand pass legislation that says that people’s property rights can be removed without compensation? That is an outrage. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 248 in the name of the Hon Annette King to Part 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendments agreed to. 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
 If this is the appropriate time I seek leave for the amendments to Part 2 on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to be taken as one question. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: The question is that the amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons be taken as one question. Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 9 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to add to subclause (2) “and implement the requirements of section 14”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 9 be agreed to: 
to add the following subclause: 
(8)Subsection (5) and subsection (6) are subject to the obligations of the regional council to properly carry out the requirements of sections 12 14 and 16. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 10(1) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (1)(d). 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (1)(e). 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: The amendments in the name of Peter Brown to clause 10 have been ruled out of order as they are inconsistent with previous decisions of the Committee. 
The amendments in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10(1)(j) and to omit subclause 2(a)(iv) are also ruled out of order as they are inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (2)(a)(i) and substitute: 
(2)(a)(i)The information from public transport operators that the regional council wishes to obtain for public transport planning contracting and monitoring purposes:. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (2)(a)(iii) and substitute: 
(2)(a)(iii)The promotion of an integrated public transport system:. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to insert in subclause (2)(a)(v) after “time” “distance” and after “concessions” “provided that the policy provides for adequate compensation of contracted operators for any contracted net fare arrangement”. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to insert in subclause (2)(a)(vi) after “region” “provided that in the case of commercial public transport services the application is proposed to be proportionate to and compatible with the commercial operating basis and character of the service”. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 10(3) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to insert in paragraph (3) after “a summary of” “the matters that the regional council has satisfied itself of in accordance with section 12(1) in order to enable it to specify the controls”. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 10 be agreed to: 
to omit paragraphs (a) to (c) from subclause (3). 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 10(3)(a) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 10(3)(b) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11A(2) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11A(2)(a) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to insert after “in” “or pursuant to” in clause 11A(2)(b) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to insert after “control” “or contracting requirement” in clause 11A(2)(b) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11A(2)(c) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of Peter Brown to clause 11A be agreed to: 
to omit from subclause (2)(c) “section 12(3)(b)” and substitute “section 12(3)(c)”. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11A(2)(d) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 249 in the name of Jeanette Fitzsimons to clause 11A(3) be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; United Future 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Maurice Williamson to clause 12 be agreed to: 
to omit this clause and substitute the following clause: 
12Controls on commercial public transport services  
(1)A regional council may specify a control in a regional public transport plan if—  
(a)the regional council has satisfied itself that: 
(i)there are no alternative options to address the problem proposed to be addressed by the control including non-regulatory options; and 
(ii)there is a relative net economic benefit of adopting the control compared with the alternative options including the non-regulatory options after carrying out a quantitative analysis of costs and benefits except where it is demonstrably not possible to quantify benefits in which case a qualitative analysis may be undertaken; and 
(iii)the adoption of the control represents best value for money including in relation to the impact of the control by itself and combined with other existing controls or proposed controls and public funding available for regional land transport activities; and 
(iv)the control will not have or will be unlikely to have a material adverse effect on the financial viability of commercial public transport operators and on any individual commercial public transport operator both by itself and combined with other existing or proposed controls and any other non-regulatory constraints agreed with operators; and 
(v)the control would not or would not be likely to lead to the cessation of a commercial public transport service; and 
(b)the regional council has identified whether or not the control has the potential to have an adverse effect (not being an effect referred to in subsection (1)(a)(iv) and (v)) on the financial viability of a registered commercial public transport service. 
(2)If a regional council specifies a control in a regional public transport plan it may also specify in the plan—  
(a)any transitional arrangements (which may be any 1 or more of delaying the commencement date of the control providing financial or other assistance to operators or anything else that assists operators to comply with the control) that the regional council in its discretion has or will put in place to remedy any potential adverse effects that the council has identified under subsection(1)(b) the control is likely to have on existing commercial services; or  
(b)the process that the regional council will adopt for determining any such transitional arrangements. 
(3)A control may— 
(a)require a minimum period not exceeding 6 months for the operation of a commercial public transport service (which must include any period of notice required for varying or withdrawing the service) immediately following the commencement of— 
(i)the registered commercial public transport service: 
(ii)a variation to the registered commercial public transport service: 
(b)may require a minimum period of notice (which may be not less than 35 working days and no more than 65 working days) for—  
(i)commencing a commercial public transport service:  
(ii)varying a commercial public transport service; 
(c)may require a minimum period of notice (which may not be more than 65 working days) for withdrawing a commercial public transport service;  
(d)identify commercial public transport services that must be registered collectively provided that each such control: 
(i)applies to no more than one route; and 
(ii)applies to that route for one period in a day of no greater than two hours of continuous service; and 
(iii)specifies no greater service requirements than in the applicable regional public transport plan and supplementary documents for that route; and 
(iv)applies to all weekdays or all Saturdays or Sundays or a specified public holiday but not any combination of those days. 
(e)require compliance with specified quality standards and performance standards: 
(f)require any commercial public transport service to be an integrated service: 
(g)require the application of common emblems or signs (but not common colour schemes) for vehicles or other modes of transport used in integrated public transport services in the region provided that the application is proportionate to and compatible with the commercial operating basis and character of the service: 
(h)require the operator of any commercial public transport service to use integrated technology specified in the regional public transport plan: 
(i)require the operator of any commercial public transport service to issue use and accept an integrated ticket specified in the regional public transport plan: 
(j)set and apportion integrated fares on a reasonable basis without undue discrimination and in accordance with the following factors: 
(i)time: 
(ii)distance travelled: 
(iii)zone: 
(iv)mode of travel: 
(v)any concessionary fares policy: 
(vi)the number of journeys to be travelled: 
(vii)the relevant single operator fare: 
(k)require the operator of any commercial public transport service to collect on behalf of other operators an integrated fare that is set in accordance with a control made under paragraph (i): 
(l)specify the point at which an integrated fare becomes payable: 
(m)require the operator of any commercial public transport service to accept a portion of an integrated fare that is set in accordance with a control made under paragraph (i) as full payment for travel on the service: 
(n)provide that the operator of any commercial public transport service may not collect an additional fare from a passenger who transfers from another service on which the passenger has already paid an integrated fare if the integrated fare includes payment for the passenger’s travel on the operator’s service. 
(4)If a regional council has contracted a public transport service of a similar class to a commercial public transport service a control may impose no greater requirements or higher standards on the commercial public transport service than the requirements or standards applying under the contract to the contracted public transport service. 
(5)For the purposes of subsection (4) the contract that imposes the lesser requirement is the relevant contract for the purposes of comparison with a control if— 
(a)there is more than 1 contracted public transport service of a similar class to the commercial public transport service; and 
(b)the contracted public transport services are provided under separate contracts; and 
(c)the contracts impose different requirements on the contracted public transport services. 
(6)No control may be adopted under subsection (3)(d) to subsection 3(l): 
(a)that would prevent inhibit or deter any operator of a commercial public transport bus or ferry service from offering customers its services under a separate ticket of the operator and at charges set by the operator and a discount for one or more of its services to its customers; and 
(b)requires the operator to incur costs or a reduction in revenues for which it will not receive adequate compensation as a result of being required to differ from its standard rates for the service or from the rates set for the purposes of the operator’s participation in an integrated ticketing and integrated fare scheme. 
(7)No control may be adopted under subsection (3)(c) (d) or (e) in respect of any harbour ferry or hovercraft. 
(8)Subclause (4) does not apply to a control of the type described in subclause (3)(b). 
(9)A control may not be made for the purpose of eliminating any existing commercial service. 
(10)Different types of controls in a regional public transport plan may be applied to different classes or descriptions of public transport services. 
(11)A regional council may not adopt a control that— 
(a)applies to a commercial public transport service that— 
(i)operates outside the region to which the regional public transport plan applies; or 
(ii)is of a class or description that is specified by the Governor-General by Order in Council as an exempt commercial public transport service for the purposes of this section; or 
(b)would require an operator to breach a rule made under the Land Transport Act 1998 or the Maritime Transport Act 1994. 
(12)A control may not be adopted under subsection (3)(c) that exceeds the requirements of any enactment that deals with the subject matter of the proposed control and which applies to commercial public transport services. 
(13)A regional council is not permitted to own lease or licence any integrated technology required for use by an operator of a commercial public transport service or contracted service under an integrated ticketing or integrated fare system control unless it has submitted that integrated technology to an open and fair tender process and the decision to use that integrated technology has been established by independent audit as being cost effective and as not imposing unreasonable terms on the operator. 
(14)In subsection (3)(b) route means a sequential listing of all the streets or roads to be followed and the stopping places to be observed between one terminal and another by a public transport service. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendments in the name of Peter Brown to clause 12 be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (3)(b); 
to omit subclause (3)(n); 
to omit subclause (6); and 
to omit subclause (10)(a)(ii). 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 55 
New Zealand National 47; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland. 
Noes 65 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 2; ACT New Zealand 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
Progress to be reported presently. 
House resumed. 
The Chairperson reported the Climate Change (Emissions Trading and Renewable Preference) Bill with amendment and that the Committee had divided it into two bills and progress on the Public Transport Management Bill. 
Report adopted.