Hodgson Pete: Immigration Bill — In Committee 
Hodgson Pete: Immigration Bill — In Committee 
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Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 As the previous speaker Jackie Blue indicated Part 9 of the Immigration Bill is about the detention and monitoring of those who have or may have broken the law in respect of immigration. It lists what the powers of the State are and are not. I want to spend a little time exploring the circumstances under which those powers may be used. 
At the moment the New Zealand Police is conducting an inquiry into allegations against a member of this Committee that there was the possibility—so say the allegations—of a false or fake jobs for cash deals going on. That is against the law of the legislation we are passing and the detention and monitoring powers in Part 9 are how we find out. In more recent days it has become clear to me that this may not be the only case of its type involving a member of the Committee. Melissa Lee who now is a member of Parliament made a National Party video using her facilities at Asia Vision Ltd and hired a woman by the name of Miss Casalme. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: The only one that’s in prison is a Labour Minister! 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Attempts by the Opposition to shout me down will not work because I have the microphone. I am led to believe that Miss Casalme worked voluntarily for Miss Lee in making the National Party video—so far so good. There are issues around whether the video should have been authorised but that is well outside the scope of this bill and I would not dare dwell on it. But the case is that a job was created for Miss Casalme. She desperately wanted to stay in New Zealand she desperately wanted permanent residency and she desperately needed the immigration points that one garners for this or that reason to get herself across the threshold. She did not have a job that was sufficiently senior so Melissa Lee created one. She created a job that was sufficiently senior and that did not exist before in her company. This was not a fake job for cash deal; it was a fake job for voluntary effort deal because the same woman Miss Casalme worked on a National Party video voluntarily and then the job was created. One assumes though I do not know that the woman then went on to put in her permanent residency application. 
Part 9 of the bill deals with this sort of stuff; it deals with people who take our immigration law and try to bodge it. It deals with people who set out to— 
Simon Bridges 
: Like Taito the one Helen Clark said was guilty only of trying to work hard. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I ask members who is guilty of trying to work hard. 
Simon Bridges 
: That is what Helen Clark said about Taito Phillip Field. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Taito Phillip Field is in jail because he did some things against the existing legislation that he ought not to have done. He got caught got taken to court and got put in jail. My question is: who is joining him? That is what I want to know. I want to know whether other members of this Committee— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Only Labour Ministers! 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I am asking the question. If we know there is a police investigation into allegations of jobs for cash I wonder whether there will be— 
Jo Goodhew 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I ask for your guidance on whether this matter is relevant to the question under debate under Standing Order 107(1). 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The member is quite correct to point out the Standing Order but I say that it is generally accepted in this Chamber that members speaking can and are entitled to respond to interjections. A healthy stream of interjections has been coming from the National benches to which the member speaking has responded. The interjections are quite off the matter in debate so if National members want to keep to the narrow letter of the Standing Orders and then hold the Opposition to account for that then they should do so themselves. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I seek your advice about whether the speaker’s comments are out of order in relation to Standing Order 116 which makes out of order offensive reference to a member’s private affairs particularly those that are completely unsubstantiated. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: I say to the member that Standing Order 116 states: “A member may not make imputation of improper motives against a member an offensive reference to a member’s private affairs or a personal reflection against a member.” As I understand it the member speaking has repeated issues that have been raised publicly and that are part of the public record—I may have got that incorrect but that is how I understand it. If it is in the public domain and is being publicly debated then I will not rule it out of order. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I accept that point unequivocally but I question whether the member’s implication that others may join a former member of this Committee in jail as a consequence remains outside of Standing Order 116. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The member correctly—[ 
Interruption 
]—I am ruling on this matter—identified the words: “others might join them”. I did not take that to mean necessarily other members of Parliament; it could include them but also others. Had the member said: “other members of Parliament will join them” then of course that is a reflection on the House and the member would be unwise to do that. 
Simon Bridges 
: I think you should say some of this outside the Chamber Pete. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Oh so they have not stopped interjecting. You gave them the advice Mr Chairperson that if I was to stick to the knitting they would have to keep their mouths shut. But as soon as I get to my feet away they go! So away I go! It is easy: if members want me to stick to the knitting then they need to keep their mouths shut. The Chairperson just told them that. 
I have some advice for Melissa Lee: if she thinks I have said anything wrong in part or in whole she can either take offence now or later or take a call as soon as I finish or later. She has plenty of options and I urge her to exercise them as she sees fit. As I understand it there is the case of a job being created for a woman who did voluntary work in the unpaid employ of Melissa Lee. I wonder whether the detention and monitoring provisions under Part 9 are relevant. Certainly it is only by monitoring that these things are brought to account. The new law that we are looking at passing has an ability to detain people for short medium or long periods for a variety of reasons including questioning. So I would have thought that Part 9 is relevant to the issues that I raise. 
Now that National members are silent I say again— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: You’re still a scumbag. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Oh! 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think you can anticipate what my point of order may be. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: I am not anticipating anything. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Well that is unparliamentary language. I think it is well know that under the Standing Orders one cannot use language like that in Parliament. The member should withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Normally it is the member who is speaking who would take offence. If the member is offended by it which I have the indication from him that he is then I ask the member to withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: No. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Well I advise the member to withdraw and apologise— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I’ll just get my stuff together. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: No that is not good enough. I say to the member that there are rules in this place. I have never asked any member to leave and I want to get through this term without doing so. But if the member does not withdraw and apologise for that remark which is offensive then I will simply have to do so. Does the member refuse to withdraw and apologise? 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Yes. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The member will leave the Chamber for the rest of the day. 
Hon Tau Henare withdrew from the Chamber. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: I think in a way—and sometimes I reflect on this—the punishment should be forcing the member to stay here till 10 o’clock and if I could do so making him read his own  
Hansard.  
But never mind the standard thing is for the member to withdraw to leave the Chamber until 10 o’clock. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: So we have in Part 9 the detention and monitoring provisions and what I have done—though I have been interrupted throughout which is why I needed to take a second call—is point out the possibility that two members of this Committee may find themselves having a careful interest in this part. It is good to see that at least one of them is here and I hope we might get to see the other later because it matters to manage our borders in a way that is legal and according to law. Jobs for cash allegations are serious and jobs for voluntary assistance allegations are serious. Of course they are much more easily made than proved and we need to be careful about that. But those allegations are swirling around two members of this Committee. One of them is being investigated by the police to what end we do not know. One of them is not being investigated by the police. That one is being asked only to pay back an amount a little short of 100000 bucks for some accounting errors. But you see accounting errors are not part of immigration law so I cannot dwell on that either. 
If this Parliament is to pass legislation it would be good to know in advance that all 120-something of us think that the legislation is good and that all 120-something of us are prepared to be bound by the legislation. Right at the moment I have my doubts.