O'Connor Greg; Swarbrick Chlöe; Costello CaseyPart 2 Amendments to other enactmentsCHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Members we come now to Part 2. This is debate on clauses 25 to 44 Amendments to other enactments" and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.CHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): I can feel the frustration from members of the Government that we are having to have this debate right now but I'd remind them that they put us and our democracy in this position in the first place. I heard from members of the ACT Party in particular that the Minister in the chair the Hon Casey Costello doesn't have to answer when we as members of the Opposition are addressing questions directly to her. As a matter of technicality that may indeed be the case. But I'd say with regards to our democracy and the very procedures that we come to expect of this place that I would hope that we can have a meaningful back and forth. So to that effect the kind of takeaway I feel that New Zealanders can get from this debate tonight and from the contributions of the Minister and the governing parties is that the Government is saying "Taihoa slow down on saving lives." That's the point of this legislation tonight.So I just wanted to have that—a specific back and forth with the Minister if that indeed will be indulged by the Minister. And we can have that meaningful back and forth in lieu of the select committee and usual procedures to have scrutiny over legislation. Because the Minister in her responses to my questions in the last part in Part 1 was stating that we're not to take it as a hint as to the future consultation on the upcoming whatever Cabinet paper or future of smoke-free legislation looks like—that there was in that Part 1 as just confirmed by this committee the removal of section 3A(a)(i) of the principal Act which states the purpose "to reduce disparities in smoking rates and … illnesses" between the broader New Zealand population and Māori. Again I'd remind those following along at home that this is particularly relevant because the disparities in smoking rates between non-Māori—for non-Māori it's around 6 percent and for Māori it continues to hover at around 17 percent. So my question which I implore the Minister to answer right now if we're to have that meaningful back and forth—because again for those following along at home I will otherwise get back up and continue to prosecute this case. But my hope is that the Minister answers. She alluded before to the fact that she hopes that there will be more targeted interventions particularly for Māori smoking rates. To that effect so far has the Minister met with any iwi Māori hapu kaupapa Māori health organisations on this legislation in front of us tonight? Mr Chair? CHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): The honourable Chlöe Swarbrick—Chlöe Swarbrick.CHLÖE SWARBRICK: I'll take the honourable Mr Chair!So what we're seeing there is probably the quiet part said out loud or rather not said at all which is that the Government has not engaged with this Treaty partner when it comes to progressing this legislation in front of us tonight. Unfortunately that is the situation that we're left with. Not only is there no meaningful opportunity for public participation as is convention of this place but also the Minister is not meeting with the most directly impacted community when it comes to the passage of this legislation under urgency as the House sits until midnight tonight.So let's try a different tack then because we've heard from the Minister in her commentary in the media and also in her contributions in the debate tonight that she intends to in the hypothetical potential legislation to replace this—when it comes to smoke-free regulation she will be focusing on vaping. So let's dig in to precisely what that might look like. Because again we're kind of seeing and hearing from the Government that their rationale for removing this legislation is that they intend to do something different the details of which we have no information on whatsoever. So let's get some of that scoping up should the Minister be willing to engage.Here I just think it's important for folks following along at home who may be interested in this to refer back to today's question time where it appeared as though there were quite different views on what was occurring in this space from the Minister and from the Prime Minister—those being obviously two of the three coalition parties. I refer the Minister to this statement from 23 May 2023 obviously pre-election from Christopher Luxon who said then "I think good on them"—that is Australia—"they're trying to nip an issue in the bud early this was the promise that actually it was the last bit of toolset we needed to get people to come off cigarettes and instead it's ballooned and mushroomed into a massive addiction for young people. Let's do it now rather than let this issue carry on for another 30 years and regret it down the road … It's pretty wild … out there you've got lots of stores more stores than pharmacies stores opposite schools [selling vapes] and the products aren't supposed to be sold or marketing to people under the age of 18 and yet they're clearly being consumed by lots of people under the age of 18."This is a salient point because we have there an individual who is now the Prime Minister and the leader of one of the three governing parties saying that he intended to not take off the table prior to the election the potential for the complete outright banning of—that is the criminal prohibition of—vaping which the Minister is now holding out as a cessation tool but simultaneously saying in the media that she intends to regulate in a stricter manner. So my direct question to the Minister is: is it within the Government's contemplation that they might entirely criminally prohibit vaping? Mr Chair? CHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Chlöe Swarbrick.CHLÖE SWARBRICK: Again! Unfortunately in lieu of any meaningful engagement or back and forth with the Minister—and we have to prosecute this case because we don't have any opportunity for proper scrutiny through a select committee process which kind of makes a farce of this entire committee.But here I'd refer the Minister to another statement from the National Party leader Christopher Luxon this time from 2 May 2023. This is a quote out of the New Zealand Herald which said and I quote "Meanwhile National Party leader Christopher Luxon says he would be open to 'all things' including a ban stating the current settings for vaping products in New Zealand are 'wrong'."This is the perplexing situation that we are in as a committee and a House of Representatives tonight. We are being asked to believe that the Government is going to replace this evidence-built legislation to regulate and reduce smoking in this country at a faster track than the previous status quo which this Government is seeking to return us to whilst also having no information about what that future might potentially look like while the Government is simultaneously saying that they are going to crack down harder on the gangs and on those who operate in the criminal underworld—i.e. those who peddle in substances that are presently criminally prohibited under the likes of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. We have on the other hand an individual that is now the leader of our country in the form of the Prime Minister saying that it would not be off the table prior to the election that vapes might be entirely outlawed and criminally prohibited we have a Minister who is saying that vapes are a critical tool in cessation and crickets on what's to come.So Mr Chair I don't know about you but I just have to say that all of this just feels farcical. It feels ridiculous. It feels ludicrous.Hon Mark Patterson: That's not in the bill Chlöe. It's a different bill.CHLÖE SWARBRICK: And I would implore members of the Government who right now are heckling about the fact that we are trying to debate this meaningfully under the urgency that they have imposed upon us bypassing typical democratic processes to look in the mirror. Because guys you've put us here. This is the unfortunate situation that we are in where we are being asked to slow down on saving lives with no information about what's to come next and a Government that likes to pretend at least in the text of its own coalition documents so farcically and so ridiculously and not worth the paper that it's written on that their decisions are based on data and evidence. I think my point has been made including by the fact that Government members are completely unwilling to stand up and defend this.Hon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health): I would love to comment but at this point we're debating Part 2 of this legislation repeal and there isn't any vaping aspects within this. But I will confirm that yes we do see vaping as an important cessation tool. We think there's a great opportunity to build on the success that vaping has achieved in cessation of smoking and we will continue to engage with Māori as we progress those things that we believe will allow us to achieve our smoke-free targets."