3. Question No. 3—FinanceANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 3—Finance3. ANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato) to the Minister of Finance: Is he satisfied with the level of openness and transparency around the Government's spending? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Yes. However there is always room for improvement and the Government is seeking to address this in part through our Public Finance Act modernisation programme. This programme is aimed at addressing issues which have been a feature of the system since the Public Finance Act was passed in 1989. Andrew Bayly: What is his response to the fact that the Auditor-General could not find any reference at all to the mental health component of the $300 million Homelessness Action Plan in his 2021 Budget documents? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I've noted the letter from the Auditor-General. What that speaks to is exactly the issue I am referencing with the Public Finance Act reform programme. The way we do individual votes and individual appropriations means that when a particular piece of work is part of a programme such as that programme that is how we will describe it. It however will appear differently in the appropriations. I do agree that that's an issue we need to work on together. Andrew Bayly: How can he explain why the funding for the $100 million conifer control programme was not separately disclosed in the 2021-22 Estimates of Appropriations and who is to blame for this mistake? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well I can quote in fact from the Auditor-General's letter on this matter where he says We have contacted the Ministry for Primary Industries about this and the Ministry acknowledges that there was an oversight in providing information on this initiative." I would note that the Auditor-General says that this does not affect legality under the Budget Act. Andrew Bayly: Does he agree with the Auditor-General's assessment of his $57 billion COVID fund that it was difficult and sometimes not possible to reconcile where the money was being spent making it hard for the public to see where taxpayer money is being spent? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I said in my answer to the first supplementary question the way in which we organise the public finances there—the Public Finance Act and through the Budget—means that when funds are created that include expenditure undertaken by a range of different agencies under a range of different votes and appropriations their Budget documents will not necessarily reflect the way that programme is announced. The same issue arose in the establishment of the Future Investment Fund in 2012 also a notional fund; also one where you would have had to have gone looking in individual votes to find the actual expenditure. Andrew Bayly: Is he suggesting that Treasury with a staff of 650 people is not sufficient to produce a Budget without mistakes? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Treasury does an excellent job of pulling the Budget together. As noted in the Auditor-General's letter the two issues that the member raised were the responsibility of the Ministry for Primary Industries and Land Information New Zealand. That is acknowledged here and I reiterate that according to the Auditor-General this "does not affect compliance with the Budget Act or the amount and type of expenditure" authorised under these votes. Andrew Bayly: Why has the Auditor-General had to raise concerns regarding the lack of details of Government spending on three separate occasions over the last 18 months and why does he continue to make mistakes? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I reject—SPEAKER: Order! Order! There's an assertion at the end of that question which is certainly not justified. Ask it again. You're lucky that I'm not taking it away. I think the member does know that he's breaching the rules. Andrew Bayly: Why has the Auditor-General had to raise concerns regarding a lack of detail on Government spending on three separate occasions over the last 18 months? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The Auditor-General is raising concerns about the way in which the Public Finance Act operates. It has operated this way since 1989. What we have been trying to do in Government is modernise the Public Finance Act so it actually reflects the fact that our goal here is to provide services and achieve outcomes for New Zealanders. In the words of the Minister for the Public Service as he often says New Zealanders don't wake up in the morning and say "I am now going to use services provided under Vote Health followed by services provided under Vote Education followed by services provided by Vote Social Development." This Government is trying to break down the silos of Government. Unfortunately the Public Finance Act still keeps those in place. We're committed to working with the Auditor-General on improving that. Andrew Bayly: Can he assure the House and the public that there are no other mistakes in Budget 2021? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I can assure the House that Budget 2021 went through the same processes that all of the Budgets under the previous National Government went through and from time to time there were mistakes in those Budgets. He might want to give Jonathan Coleman a call."