8. Question No. 8—EducationPENNY SIMMONDS (National—Invercargill) to the Minister of EducationQuestion No. 8—Education8. PENNY SIMMONDS (National—Invercargill) to the Minister of Education: Does he agree with comments made by the former chief executive of Otago Polytechnic Phil Ker about the Government's polytechnic reform that Not a single dollar has been put into improving outcomes for learners not a single dollar to strengthening the regional providers and so the issues that we had before Mr Hipkins started this misguided venture are not only still there they're worse"?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I respect Phil Ker and I do recognise his considerable contribution to vocational education in New Zealand and I respectfully disagree with him. I note that he was not a fan of the vocational education reforms from the beginning. The model of vocational education that we had in New Zealand wasn't sustainable and it wasn't delivering the skills that our employers are crying out for. We hear examples of that every single day with employers complaining that they cannot get access to the skilled labour that they need. That is a sign that our vocational education system has been under delivering for New Zealand for a long time—not to mention the fact that most of our polytechs were in a great degree of financial difficulty that was getting worse. I absolutely reject the assertion that additional funding hasn't gone to improving outcomes for learners particularly coming from the National Party who are arguing we're spending too much money.Penny Simmonds: Has the Minister seen further comments by Phil Ker "You can't address the problems of the magnitude we have in this sector at the moment without redundancies."; and does the Minister consider those redundancies should occur at the head office of Te Pūkenga where there are no teaching staff or out in the polytechnics?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: In answer to the first part of the question yes.Penny Simmonds: Does the Minister agree with the statement in the 2018 Government commissioned ITP Roadmap 2020 which stated "Examination of economies and mergers suggests that few if any recurrent savings result."; and if so why did the Minister then proceed with the merger of the polytechnics and industry training organisations which has only caused disarray and a significantly larger deficit?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: In answer to the first part of the question no. In regard to the second part of the question the member is wrong in her assertion. The deficits that the consolidated polytechs are producing at the moment are actually lower than some of the projected deficits that we were expecting to see without reform.Hon Damien O'Connor: Can the Minister confirm that when we came into Government the state of the polytech sector was such that not only were they not delivering on the trainees and tradespeople that we needed but their financial situation was dire to the point where a cheque had to be written out for $33 million to save Tai Poutini Polytech on the West Coast from absolute failure and disaster?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I can confirm that. And I can confirm that Tai Poutini were not the only ones; in fact Unitec would have had to completely shut its doors had the Government not stepped in and provided them with the cash flow they needed to keep operating on a day-to-day basis. WelTec and Whitireia were in a great degree of financial difficulty and if we'd not intervened there the capital city would have lost its polytech provision as well. Those are just some examples and in fact the situation was continuing to get worse for the majority of our polytechs.Penny Simmonds: Why did the Minister write on the recently released TEC monitoring report on Te Pūkenga "I'd like to see a plan for some early wins re network efficiencies ASAP."? And isn't this because all he has achieved to date is disarray and a significantly larger deficit?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: No it recognises the fact that enrolments at Te Pūkenga have declined significantly this year and they do need to make sure they're responding to that as they would have had to do regardless of whether or not Te Pūkenga had been established.Penny Simmonds: Which of the following statements does the Minister consider best describes Te Pūkenga his mega merger of the vocational education sector: Phil Ker's comments "Simply an ego trip on the Minister's part" or Merran Davis' comment "Everyone is in Disneyland."?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Neither of the above and in fact the two people that the member has quoted have almost opposite concerns about the process. Phil Ker was opposed to the process from the beginning. Merran Davis was in favour of the process at the beginning and in fact was concerned that not enough progress was being made fast enough."