Collins Judith: Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill — In Committee 
Collins Judith: Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:663;Page:10930] 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 Some statements made by the member resuming his seat Clayton Cosgrove are frankly less than correct. He referred to a Cabinet paper submitted in my name as Minister of Police and Minister of Corrections and he referred to the consultation process for this bill and the amendments. Of course what he was commenting on were not comments from my department as he referred to it but from the Ministry of Justice. Of course in the commentary we have comment on the consultation with Te Puni Kokiri—he could have quoted that—as well as the Ministry of Justice’s comment Treasury’s comment and finance notifications. 
Unfortunately Mr Cosgrove has been yet again caught out being not quite correct in what he says. The last time I looked the Hon Simon Power was the Minister of Justice not me. I am the Minister of Police and the Minister of Corrections. I am sorry to have to say that Mr Cosgrove needs to reread the paper. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: The justice ministry the key agency doesn’t agree with it. What would they know? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: The other point he talked about was the deterrence factor in relation to the Department of Corrections. Mr Cosgrove does not like to hear it and he likes to shout out and bellow but I think he should just listen. He talked about how an effect of no deterrence was assumed in the work by the Department of Corrections on this legislation. Actually the department assumed no deterrence only in relation to its calculations on the numbers of bunks or beds that would be needed for prisons. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: That’s spin. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Mr Cosgrove does not like the truth and he likes to call it spin but no it is correct. Mr Cosgrove should know better because he used to be a Cabinet Minister. 
Hon Rodney Hide 
: No! 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: It was not that long ago that he had Cabinet papers. Mr Hide says “No!” but I say yes he was. I remember that he was in fact a Cabinet Minister. 
It is very hard for him. He has obviously forgotten the whole process around Cabinet papers. He has quite clearly forgotten the fact that when it says “consultation” that means under this Government that we actually consult. Not only do we consult but we actually put down the details of the consultation. Even when I do not agree with some of the comments made by some other ministries I am still happy to have those comments—even though I do not agree with them—in the paper. That is what a robust Cabinet Minister does. Obviously when that member was a Cabinet Minister he did not want to have any consultation that did not agree with what he wanted. 
Hon Rodney Hide 
: He just did what Helen said. He was Helen’s boyfriend. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: He was very close to Miss Clark as Mr Hide states—very close. 
If Mr Cosgrove really wants to debate those issues he has had a lot of time in the select committee to do so. This bill has spent a year in the select committee. Mrs Goudie has given it a very good process there. In fact the only person I hear complaining about Mrs Goudie’s chairing of the committee is Mr Cosgrove. Mr Cosgrove clearly missed most of the committee meetings; otherwise he might have known that the New Zealand Police is not the Ministry of Justice. They are different under this Government. One is the Police and one is the Ministry of Justice. 
Even though we did not accept everything the Ministry of Justice stated we still put its comments in because that is what one does in Cabinet. I know that Mr Cosgrove’s memory is not too good but really perhaps he could just stick to the facts and stop trying to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes in this Chamber—or perhaps he just has a bad memory. 
Part 2 deals with parole. Frankly parole is a privilege not a right and it is about time recidivist violent offenders understood that. When recidivist violent offenders who will not be rehabilitated are out on parole unfortunately the public is more at risk not because of the good work of the Department of Corrections but because of those offenders and their choices. I know that Labour members do not like talking about victims or to victims because they pull on their emotional strings but it is about time they got in touch with the real people in this country as they like to think that they already are. 
I commend this part to the Committee. I think it is very realistic. It puts very simply what needs to happen with some of the changes in parole. I understand that some people who have spent a lifetime defending the rights of criminals may find it unpalatable but quite frankly it is about time someone cared for victims. I congratulate the ACT Party on bringing this bill to the House. I think it is a fantastic bill and I am very proud to be the Minister in charge of it.