Mahuta NanaiaURGENT DEBATESHon Meka Whaitiri—Removal as a MinisterDebate resumed.Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister for Māori Development): We are having this urgent debate precisely because the Prime Minister acted in a way which sent a very clear direction to one of her Ministers—one of the hardest things to do—that she will be removed and not hold her ministerial portfolios. But she didn't do it on a whim. There are two parties to this issue and rather than just removing a Minister like John Key did in 2009 with Richard Worth—and I think if people go further back to that time they'll be reminded that he said Because I'm over him." "Because I'm over him."—that's why Richard Worth was removed. Well certainly that was the example that the Prime Minister at the time John Key gave to remove Richard Worth. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern when presented with an incident with two parties one of which was her Minister said "We will undertake an investigation and we will get to the facts of the matter." at which time she would make a decision. After the report was handed to her it was found that an incident had occurred—although facts were disputed an incident had occurred—to the point where she made the decision to stand down a Minister. Meka Whaitiri has lost her ministerial warrant.This is exactly the type of debate that no member on either side of the House would want to have because it is very difficult to lose a Minister under any circumstance who is hard-working and has been elected to represent their electorate. The court of public opinion sets a high threshold but none higher than a Minister sets on themselves or a Prime Minister sets on their Cabinet. We are in a situation where we are debating an issue yes where there are two parties where natural justice did have to occur through an internal investigation where matters were disclosed in that investigation and where after the findings were out in the public domain and before the Prime Minister consideration had to be taken and a decision made.Now members of the Opposition take some kind of bloodthirsty satisfaction out of having this type of debate but we need to make sure that we don't lose sight of what's at issue here: firstly an investigation has been undertaken and decisions have been made; and secondly if we listen to the extent of the Opposition points accused of assault. If there was that level of severity then the matter would have been taken to the police. It was not. This has remained the subject of an internal investigation and within that context still very harsh decisions have been made and we are concerned for the victim. We understand how important it is that natural justice applies so that people can have full disclosure of the events that happen and so that on balance a decision can be made rather than having this blown to a level of proportion where I think many members feel very uncomfortable about that. Meka Whaitiri was elected into this House as a constituent MP for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti. She will get on and do the work that she was put here to do. I would say that on reflection as a result of the decisions that have been made she too will be reflecting on what she will definitely take forward from this experience. And it is not easy.Members of the Opposition have already made a point about the Māori caucus and our deputy leader Kelvin Davis has said actually people would expect—and it's not a Māori-Pākehā thing actually—that if someone's going through tough times you rally around and you make sure they don't fall and you don't kick them when they're down. Well if we have to stand up and say we're that type of team then we are. We don't kick a mate when they're down. But you know things need to be addressed and through this process they have been. The Prime Minister made a decision to stand Meka Whaitiri down. She has lost her ministerial portfolios and although she will continue to serve her electorate everyone is reflecting on this matter in a way that we need to be able to move forward from.Members of the Opposition would want the full disclosure of facts of all the information that has been raised within those investigations to be out in the public domain. Quite simply it's very difficult because for the parties who have disclosed information their privacy needs to be protected. It's so important to ensure that we follow some principles that we would want to apply to ourselves as well. There is private information in that report. The Prime Minister did make the point that a public-facing report will be released once redactions have been made and once the protections of private disclosures have been redacted from the report. So I'm really concerned that the Opposition is trying to paint this as kind of trying to get away from the issues at hand. I don't know in the public mind whether there's anything worse than losing a ministerial portfolio. Everyone kind of understands that. I'm not sure entirely where the Opposition want to go with this: have a member who has lost their ministerial portfolio then walk out of this place altogether? Is that the pathway that the Opposition is saying should be applied to Meka Whaitiri? I'm really concerned about that. I don't think in the public mind that they believe that in an investigation where something has been found and action has been taken any further action needs to be taken. That's something that we are certainly happy to debate in this House.More importantly what I wanted to comment on is the threshold of expectations notwithstanding the facts of the matters formed in the court of public opinion which apply to a member of Parliament and a Minister alike. Sometimes that court of public opinion has no real measure except perception. The investigation was trying to get to the facts of the matter but there is a saying "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." and the Opposition has certainly spun this in a way that the story is more important than the facts. But I really want to come back to the point that all members and all Cabinet Ministers on this side of the House have regarded as the process on which the Prime Minister took action. She wasn't going to make a decision in lieu of the facts. The investigation tried to ensure that the parties involved in this particular case had the ability to disclose the information—private information was released. On receiving the report the report said an incident had occurred—an incident had occurred—and on balance she stood Meka Whaitiri down. Now that's pretty clear for most people when they go through it. It's hard to listen to and handle but that is pretty clear.The Prime Minister has acted with a level of compassion and understanding based on the parties involved; a level of thoroughness to ensure that the investigation happened in a timely manner; and with an understanding of the expectations on her role as Prime Minister to make a decision that removed no shadow of doubt. The level of decisiveness required here was to send a signal to her whole Cabinet that her expectations are high but I suspect she recognises that the expectations that Ministers put on themselves when given the honour to serve is even higher.I am very clear in my mind that Meka Whaitiri will have the ability to continue to make a contribution and reflect on all of this but this isn't about Meka. You know in her time as a Minister she made a very strong contribution in her customs portfolio and in her primary industries portfolio. In fact one of the things that she was most passionate about which actually serves the people of her electorate to get people employed was helping Minister Jones get those one billion trees planted; to ensure that the Provincial Growth Fund would get regions like hers in Te Tai Rāwhiti up and running; and importantly to ensure that opportunities for young people would not be lost as a result of us being in Government. She contributed to the long-term plan that was outlined just last week—our 12 priorities—and as the Associate Minister for Crown-Māori Relations helped to frame up what the potential of a portfolio aimed at building the relationships between the Crown and Māori could achieve in the long term.So I know that she'll get on with it. I know that she'll reflect on the situation. I know that she wouldn't want us debating her but actually why we're in Government and why we will continue to stand up for people on all fronts. And importantly she understands that there are parties involved in this particular incident who have disclosed information and that a decision was made and she accepts it. So without too much more I'm hoping that by the time we get to the Māori Women's Welfare League she'll be able to continue to contribute to a forum where there have been many ups and downs in the life challenges of women who pick up the cudgels and lean into a leadership role. This will be a learning experience for her. Kia ora tātou."