3. Question No. 3—Social Development and EmploymentKAREN CHHOUR (ACT) to the Minister for Social Development and EmploymentQuestion No. 3—Social Development and Employment3. KAREN CHHOUR (ACT) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she agree with the statement in yesterday's report on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People's Commission Bill by Jonathan Boston and David King that locating the Monitor so close to the centre of power creates the risk of a vicious cycle of increasing levels of abuse and the potential for abuse to be swept under the carpet" or does she agree with Minister Davis' statement that for those who submitted against the bill it was "just another thing to grizzle about"?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment): In response to the first part of the question I do not agree that the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People's Commission Bill will risk increasing levels of abuse or the sweeping of abuse under the carpet. The bill includes specific provisions that set out a duty for the Monitor to act independently. The bill proposes a statutory officer model statutory reporting requirements power to require information powers of entry and a limit on Ministers' ability to direct the Monitor. The Monitor can escalate matters at their discretion to the entire Parliament to Ministers to the Children and Young People's Commission and to the public. In response to the second part of the question Minister Davis and I have both appreciated feedback from stakeholders on the bill itself and this has informed a number of pivotal changes to the select committee process.Karen Chhour: Will the Minister be showing up to the vigil for the survivors of State care outside her electorate office tomorrow to accept the petition asking her to pause the Oranga Tamariki oversight bill and if so will she tell the survivors to their face that she knows better than them? Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: During this process I have spoken to a number of stakeholders including Voyce—people that have been in care themselves. I am confident in what this bill is going to achieve. The Beattie Report that was released in 2018 said that we need to act with urgency. We need to make sure that we have the oversight system in place that ensures the protection of those that are in State care and so we will not be pausing the bill. Karen Chhour: Will the Minister continue to ignore the opposition of vulnerable and care-experienced children policy experts advocacy groups and all other political parties and does she think it is appropriate that the Minister responsible for the Oranga Tamariki oversight bill seems determined not to listen to the children she is supposed to be protecting? Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: As I said I have spoken to a number of stakeholders about the legislation and actually the select committee did a very good job of listening to the submissions and made changes as a result of the submissions that were made and what was heard. This piece of legislation is incredibly important. I'm really looking forward to the committee stages of this bill where we can go through part by part to address some of the concerns that have been raised to look at the language and to have that debate so that we can provide assurance to the public that the bill achieves what it sets out to do. Harete Hipango: The Minister is reminded that in your maiden speech of 16 December 2008—SPEAKER: Order! The member might want to go back and restart the question because she was running into the risk of being out of order straight away.Harete Hipango: Does the Minister remember her maiden speech given on 16 December 2008—"The difference between this job and any others I have held is that I am privileged now to be at the ultimate of decision-making tables. Whilst at this table my commitment is to advocate for the vulnerable"—and why does the Minister now deliberately ignore the voice and views of the vulnerable who themselves advocate against the oversight of the Oranga Tamariki systems bill?SPEAKER: I think we'll overlook the fact that the Minister didn't make the maiden speech and let the Minister answer it.Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I am absolutely committed to ensuring that those kids who are in State care are provided with a system that works for them and protects them. My intent for being in this House has not changed from 2008. I also have a responsibility to traverse all of the information that is put in front of me as well as to listen to the voices. We have listened to the voices there have been changes that have been made to the bill and as I said I am looking forward to the committee stage to be able to go through it part by part to address some of the concerns that are still being raised.Jan Logie: Does she agree with the analysis of the Auckland University Aotearoa New Zealand Centre for Indigenous Peoples and the Law report Time to Taihoa that found that the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People's Commission Bill as returned from the committee was inconsistent with Te Tiriti and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) in content and process; if not why not?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: No. The bill's Treaty provisions were carefully crafted with Te Kāhui who supported the Ministry of Social Development's consultation with Māori across the country. The bill creates obligations on the oversight bodies to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The specific clause in the bill directly emerged from key Māori stakeholders who called for specific obligations to be placed on the oversight bodies rather than a broad Treaty of Waitangi clause which can be open to interpretation and run the risk of diluting the obligations on agencies. Also in reference to UNDRIP the draft declaration is still going through consultation. So it would not be appropriate to write into legislation now something that is still actively being considered.Karen Chhour: What would it take for the Minister to listen to the vulnerable children advocacy groups and policy experts who are crying out for her to pause this bill?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Those children are front of mind for us as a Government and that is why we will not be pausing the bill. They deserve to have an oversight system that is in place that is robust and we are doing that through this legislation.Karen Chhour: Does she believe that the effective oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system is dependent on a high degree of public trust and if so how does she reconcile this with a statement in the report that "The significant level of opposition to the Bill especially from organisations working most directly with children and young people along with all other [political] parties in Parliament clearly demonstrates the Monitor does not enjoy the necessary level of trust."?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Again this is why I am looking forward to the committee stage. I have been asked questions by the media and others that actually are not part of what is in this bill questions like "Why are we dismantling the Children's Commission?" when that is clearly not happening; questions like "Why are we moving the monitoring mechanism out of the Children's Commission and into ERO?" when that's not happening because the Independent Children's Monitor was established in the Ministry of Social Development and we're shifting that function to the Education Review Office from there. There are so many things that have been said about this bill that we need to be able to debate robustly in this House and the committee stage will give us an opportunity to go through line by line and do that."