Cunliffe David: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeCunliffe David: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 09 September 2015. Volume:708;Page:6437. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]9.Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) to the Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment: How much funding have tertiary institutes been forced to repay to the Tertiary Education Commission in the past year as a result of overfunding and does he still have confidence that the Tertiary Education Commission’s regular monitoring procedures are working?Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Tertiary Education Skills and Employment): In relation to the first part of the question repaying funding is a standard part of the tertiary system with the Tertiary Education Commission recovering funding if a tertiary education organisation receives funding greater than its planned enrolment level and does not meet its education performance indicators. In 2014 there were also two cases where providers were required to pay back because they had received more than they were entitled to receive. Total recoveries for 2014 which is the latest year we have are $57.5 million across all tertiary education organisations. In relation to the second part broadly yes but in light of a few well-publicised recent events the Tertiary Education Commission and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority (NZQA) have commissioned an independent review by Deloitte into its monitoring of tertiary education organisations. That was released in July of this year and it found that the monitoring has the principal elements expected of a comprehensive framework. It also made some recommendations for improvement which are being implemented currently.Hon David Cunliffe: Why in the Deloitte review to which he has just referred did Deloitte say: “The current monitoring approach across both organisations”—that is the Tertiary Education Commission and NZQA—“is neither designed nor resourced to detect potential fraud.”?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: There are requirements that tertiary education organisations must meet in return for funding and the funding organisations are entitled to expect that the governors and operators of those tertiary education organisations meet those requirements and make representations to the Tertiary Education Commission that are correct. Should those situations not be the case as has occurred in the recent examples that as I say have been publicised then the Tertiary Education Commission can go in and recover that money. That is what it has done on four or five occasions.Hon David Cunliffe: Why did it take whistleblowers to spark an investigation into 5 years of overpayments and the enrolment of ghost students in courses at Taratahi Agricultural Training Centre and what does that say about the tertiary education sector and its monitoring agencies under his watch?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well I think that it says a lot about the management of Taratahi during that period and I think the situation that occurred is very disappointing. It is the job of that organisation—just the same as it is the job of other tertiary education organisations—to ensure that they meet the terms of their funding agreements. That is their responsibility. So it does not say anything about the Tertiary Education Commission; it says a lot about the behaviour of those organisations. The Tertiary Education Commission has been diligent in recovering money where it is found to have not been paid correctly.Hon David Cunliffe: Why did it take whistleblowers to spark an investigation into Warriors club members and staff gaining a certificate for an 18-week course after doing just 1 day of study and what does this say about the tertiary education sector and its monitoring agencies under his watch?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well the particular matter the member raises is from the middle of last year I think and was publicised at the time. If I could be helpful to him and to members of this House there have been four reasonably well-publicised matters: Te Whare Wānanga o Awanuiārangi which we had complaints about in March 2014 and was settled last year; Taratahi which is the recent one; also the Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki; and also one private trust in Rotorua with links to Awanuiārangi. There is one further investigation being undertaken at the moment.Grant Robertson: Right so things aren’t great then are they?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well there are 600-and-something tertiary organisations. If Mr Robertson would like to cast aspersions on the whole sector he can feel free to do so.Hon David Cunliffe: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Although it was helpful of the Minister to recite—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I can anticipate—Hon David Cunliffe: —the names of some investigations he did not address—Mr SPEAKER: I agree. I am going to invite the member to ask that question again.Hon David Cunliffe: Why did it take whistleblowers to spark an investigation into Warriors club members and staff gaining certificates for an 18-week course after just 1 day of study and what does that say about the tertiary education sector monitoring agencies under his watch?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: Well again it does not say anything about them; it says a lot about that particular provider. Also in relation to two matters that the member has referred to today they have been referred to the Serious Fraud Office. It cannot be the responsibility of the Tertiary Education Commission to detect potential fraud when people deliberately misrepresent the situation to the monitoring agencies.Hon David Cunliffe: Whenthe Minister referred in response to press questions in November 2014 to 12 tertiary institutions for which there were targeted reviews or investigations under way what are the names of the other eight in addition to the four that he mentioned in his answer to the previous supplementary question?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: There are in fact six focused reviews that have been undertaken by the Tertiary Education Commission in terms of its own responses after the matters had been raised with it. Five of those have now been completed with no concerns. One of them has been elevated to a full review. That review is ongoing. I would be happy to report to the House once that review is complete.Hon David Cunliffe: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister has not addressed the names of any of the institutions that were under review. That was a very specific supplementary question asking for the names. Not one name was produced in his answer.Mr SPEAKER: The difficulty I have is that the Minister answered it by saying that the numbers quoted by the member were wrong. He talked of there being 12 and of four having been mentioned and asked what the other eight were. The Minister said: “Well you’re wrong. There are six.”Hon David Cunliffe: It was not my contention that there were originally 12; I was quoting the Minister’s answers to a press question in November 2014 a matter that—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The way forward is that I will ask the member to ask the question again but the Minister will certainly be at liberty to answer that until reviews are over it is not in the public interest to make any further comment. Let us have the question again.Hon David Cunliffe: What are the names—what are the names—of the 12 tertiary institutions that he stated to the press in November 2014 were under “targeted reviews or investigations” and what is the status of those investigations?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: In fact six targeted reviews have taken place. Five of those have been concluded completely satisfactorily with no concerns and I do not propose to list the names of those organisations to the House because there are no concerns about them. The sixth one is currently under investigation and that investigation is continuing. As I said to the member previously at an appropriate time I would be more than happy to publicise the outcome of that and the name of the institution involved.