Lee DeniseDENISE LEE (National—Maungakiekie): The previous speaker Willie Jackson has just said that the Government knows what they're doing. This is how they know what they're doing: they're now about to implement the most damaging tertiary sector reform in 30 years. If the previous speaker thinks that that's the definition of knowing what they're doing then they need some serious help.This is nothing more than a fees-free disaster in the making. That's what's going to happen—another round of a fees-free disaster in the making. You're putting billions of dollars of taxpayer money at risk and the Government knows it.The number one travesty—the number one travesty—of this reform that we will pass certainly in just moments away is that the Government—this is their biggest blight—has failed to see the most obvious thing right in front of them that industry understands the needs of industry best. I'll repeat that again: industry knows the needs of industry best. And instead they've been run roughshod over and there's a Government that apparently knows what they're doing according to the previous speaker but it is industry that knows what industry needs best.There's another aspect to this particular massive upheaval and reform the most damaging reform in the last 30 years in the tertiary sector and that's the timing of this—the economic timing and the context of what this Government's doing. So the economy we know is facing an uphill battle at the moment. We've got an overburdening Government and a significant skill shortage and here they go with a massive massive reform at this particular time. It's not going to relieve pressure; it's going to compound it.We've got the construction sector crying out for new workers. We need workers who know how to swing a hammer and—ahem—get some KiwiBuild houses built. But instead we're going to face over 2000 fewer apprentices. And that's what Treasury says that's what the business case says: 2000 fewer apprentices. That's what your own numbers are telling everyone.And then there's the international student market. We know that they've faced a lot of pressure with the issues in delays in visa processing of late. And now we've got coronavirus where the international student sector is crying out for some certainty around perhaps exemptions to travel bans. Whatever it is that they need they're crying out for. So you've got this economic setting at the moment and here we are running roughshod with massive reform—the biggest in 30 years. Does the Government really want to push through these reforms at this particular time? That's in addition to the reforms just being fundamentally wrong anyway. These are the sorts of questions that we put to the Minister and the Minister just ignored it at our committee stage yesterday.And then I want to raise the Hon Tracey Martin referring to her whiteboard exercise with the hairdressing industry—worth by the way $580 million to the economy; that was the 2017 figure. It's a very big industry and very big contributor to our economy. When the Hon Tracey Martin referred to her whiteboard exercise literally with the industry she didn't actually say what the outcome of that was. But I can tell you what the outcome of that was. It's written down here from the hairdressing sector: Our position on the reform has not changed from our original submission which included a petition with approximately 1000 names of hairdressers that did not support the proposed changes". So there you go: there's the hairdressing opinion on this particular reform. Whiteboard exercises or not in the Hon Tracey Martin's office it does not matter. They don't support it. We don't support it. This is damaging reform and yet another damaging reputation on this Government."