Hague Kevin: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeHague Kevin: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 05 March 2014. Volume:696;Page:16325. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]5.KEVIN HAGUE (Green) to theMinister of Health: When were Ministry of Health officials first informed that the dispute between the Southern District Health Board and South Link Health involved allegations of the misuse of public funding and when were they first informed that this alleged misuse was suspected to involve elements that could be fraud?Hon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health): I am advised that this complex commercial dispute is over savings from pharmaceutical and laboratory contracts from 1995 to 2002 and it has been ongoing for over a decade. I am advised that the Ministry of Health has been aware over all of this time that Southern District Health Board has had concerns over the agreed and proper use of savings and that is why there is a dispute. In relation to the second part of his question I am advised that they became aware of concerns about fraud in late 2013. The member knows that this matter is now with forensic accountants to see whether there is an issue of fraud but the member may also be interested to know that the Ministry of Health has advised me that it has seen no evidence that suggests fraud.Kevin Hague: Does the Minister continue to maintain that he did not know that there were allegations of misuse of funds prior to late 2013 as he answered in this House in the last sitting session when this fact had been extensively covered by mainstream and specialist health sector media for more than a decade?Hon TONY RYALL: Yes I do because as I said to the member last week we have searched our records the ministry’s records and the records of the district health board and we have found no evidence in respect of that 2010 advice that he talked about. Look the member can cast as many aspersions as he likes on whatever individuals he wants to look at but the fact is that the forensic accountants are now looking at this. It will be interesting to see what they come up with but I have received advice from the Ministry of Health that they have seen no evidence that suggests fraud.Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is unclear from the Minister’s answer whether he is answering yes or no to this basic question of whether he is continuing to maintain—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I can assist the member. I heard the Minister say that yes he maintains his position.Kevin Hague: Does the Minister continue to maintain that he did not know that there were allegations of misuse of funds prior to late 2013 when his written answers today show that his own office was communicating directly with the district health board chief executive on multiple occasions about this very issue in 2010?Hon TONY RYALL: That is because at the time they were seeking to get mediation and arbitration. There had been no advice given to me that there was any fraudassociated with that. The member has got to acknowledge that this has been going on for 12 years. It is a very complex situation—Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question related to allegations of the misuse of funds not about fraud specifically—that is a separate matter and a subset. The Minister has been claiming that he had no knowledge prior to late 2013 that there were allegations of the misuse of funds. It would be good if his answer could address that point.Mr SPEAKER: I am going to invite the member to repeat his question because the Minister had started his answer before he was interrupted by the point of order. Repeat the question please.Kevin Hague: Does the Minister continue to maintain that he did not know that there were allegations of the misuse of funds prior to late 2013 when his written answers today show that his own office was communicating directly with the district health board chief executive about this very issue on multiple occasions in 2010?Hon TONY RYALL: I think the member is trying to create some sort of mystery around this use of the words “misuse of funds”. As I said in my main question the whole issue—Hon Annette King: The main question?Hon TONY RYALL: —answer—of this debate over the last 12 years has been whether there has been agreed and proper use of the money. If you want to call that “misuse of funds” the member can but all of his questions have been about the issue of fraud. The reason why we are talking about this—Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister is effectively trying to litigate the question rather than answer it.Mr SPEAKER: Order! No. The Minister has addressed the question. The member himself referred to the issue of the misuse of funds. The Minister has addressed the question. If the member has further searching supplementary questions that is the way that he might get the sort of answer that he is after.Kevin Hague: Given that the Minister does continue to maintain that he did not know that there were allegations of misuse of public funds prior to late 2013 has he asked ministry officials district health board staff and board members why they withheld that crucial piece of information from him for so long even though they knew that he would be extremely interested in such claims as a result of his own extensive actions over the massive Michael Swann fraud at this very same district health board?Hon TONY RYALL: We have been quite clear in every answer to this question that there has been a long period of public awareness that there was an argument over whether the money was being spent for agreed and proper purposes and I have answered that in the House a couple of times. If the member is talking about fraud I have been quite clear that a search of my records the ministry’s records and the district health board’s records shows that we have not been advised of that—Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have listened to quite a bit of the answer—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am going to invite the member to repeat that question.Kevin Hague: Has he asked ministry officials district health board staff and board members why they withheld that crucial piece of information from him for so long even though they knew he would be extremely interested in such claims as a result of his own extensive actions over the massive Michael Swann fraud at the very same district health board?Hon TONY RYALL: Officials have been quite clear that they were unaware of those claims of fraud resulting from the 2010 advice that we have talked about previously.Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The claims that are referred to are claims that public—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member is now contesting whether that question was addressed. It was addressed.Kevin Hague: Is the Minister saying that board member of the district health board Richard Thomson is lying when he says that the board referred the matter to the ministry’s audit and compliance unit in December 2010 because Mr Ryall did not want it taken through the courts?Hon TONY RYALL: Well certainly I would reject any suggestion that says that I told the district health board not to take the matter to courts if it was a matter of fraud. No Minister would put themselves in that position.Kevin Hague: When the Minister claims to know nothing about allegations of misuse of public funds in the dispute how could he advise former district health board chief executive Brian Rousseau not to take this misuse of funds to court?Hon TONY RYALL: As the member knows because it was published in theOtago Daily Times on Saturday on that matter Mr Rousseau was talking about civil action—not fraud action but civil action—that the district health board was taking and my position on all those matters is that we should not have one taxpayer-funded organisation taking another essentially taxpayer-funded organisation to court if there were options for mediation and arbitration. That is the advice that I would always give a district health board in that circumstance.Kevin Hague: What exactly did the Minister say and when did he say it to Brian Rousseau that he interpreted to mean: “Do not take this case to court.”?Hon TONY RYALL: Well the member is asking me questions about 3½ to 4 years ago. You would have to ask Mr Rousseau. But if I go by what is in theOtago Daily Timeson Saturday it was before any of this issue in respect of fraud was raised. I think it is a perfectly responsible position for a Minister to say that if there is a matter of a civil case—a contractual dispute—we should not have one taxpayer-funded organisation taking essentially another to court if there is mediation and arbitration available. I know that the Greens are under pressure because of the polls but they—Mr SPEAKER: Order! That part of the answer will not help this House.Kevin Hague: In view of the Minister’s impending retirement—Mr SPEAKER: Order!Kevin Hague: —will he instruct the Southern District Health Board and the Ministry of Health to immediately release all the documents I have requested under the Official Information Act including advice to himself and in-committee board minutes relating to this matter?Hon TONY RYALL: I think that has got nothing to do with my forthcoming retirement from Parliament but I have to say that I think the member’s performance on this might be a reason for an involuntary retirement with the behaviour that we are seeing—Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister has not addressed the question at all.Mr SPEAKER: Order! If the member wants a clear and concise answer he should ask a clear and concise question. There was no need in that question to refer in any way to a member’s intention to retire from this House.Kevin Hague: Will the Minister support my request to the Auditor-General for an urgent investigation into the role played by him and his ministry in the decision of the Southern District Health Board not to pursue legal channels to recover public funds from South Link Health?Hon TONY RYALL: I think the member is demonstrating with all this sort of stuff that we really are getting into the election-year period. I would have to say to the member that the forensic accountants are looking at it because of a request by the Southern District Health Board. I think we should wait until the forensic accountants’ results come back and consider those issues then. The Ministry of Health has advised me that it has seen no evidence that suggests fraud—Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister is not addressing the question.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will sit down. For just about every question the Minister has attempted to answer we find that the member rises to his feet during the answer. In this particular case the Minister very clearly addressed the question. He said that you should now wait until the forensic accountancy investigation has taken place. It does not help the order of the House when the member not getting the answer he wants continues to rise to his feet and claim that the question has not been adequately addressed when it has been.Kevin Hague: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Can I just clarify whether the member is in any way questioning a decision I have just made.Kevin Hague: I am just checking whether you are saying that the Minister has answered as a no.Mr SPEAKER: The member needs to take time to read the Standing Orders. There is no way he can demand a yes or no answer to any question. In this case the member asked his question the Minister very adequately addressed the question and that is the end of the matter.