Barker Rick: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
Barker Rick: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
[Volume:626;Page:21689] 
Hon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts) 
: 
 I want to make a couple of points but first I will clarify a mistaken belief of the Opposition that has been repeated a couple of times. I have heard a couple of Opposition speakers say that the Ministry of Justice—the courts department and its collections unit—cannot data match with the Ministry of Social Development and the Inland Revenue Department and that they will be moving amendments. I say to those members that they do it now they do it regularly and they do it thoroughly. Let us not be mistaken about that. 
My second point is about the process. I say to the Opposition that this has been an evolving process. When the bill was first mooted 4 or 5 years ago there was very little data information available on people who were about to travel because it was not collected. People could simply turn up to a ticketing centre get a ticket and climb on a plane within 2 hours and be gone. 
Brian Connell 
: What’s changed? 
Hon RICK BARKER 
: What has changed is advance passenger information. Not only do airlines have to give us information in advance about people coming into the country airlines are having to give information in advance of people going out. So we now have knowledge of who is coming through airports before and after their flights. When the bill was first conceived the airlines made the point that when people front up they have no idea whether those people are on the Customs Service watch list because they have not gone through customs and they and their bags are treated as they normally would be. If the Customs Service was then going to hold someone it would have to de-van the whole plane to get that person’s bags off which would be a great inconvenience to the travelling public and would incur huge extra costs because as anybody who has been in the airline industry knows if a plane takes off late it lands late and there are big costs that go with that. 
Now things have changed. People now have to buy their tickets in advance and the systems are being integrated. So when the airline has ticket information it then has to be as advance passenger information put into the system of either or both the Customs Service and the Immigration Service. So as a result of the courts—the Ministry of Justice—being able to load on to those systems those whom they are interested in the flag can come up much more quickly. By the time any such people front to the counter it is known that they are of interest and their bags can be set aside and thee matter can be dealt with much more easily. That is a significant advance that gives us greater ability to deal with these issues. Some procedural issues will be associated with that and we have to do these things with the cooperation of the airlines and the travelling public. When the members of the Law and Order Committee said that the figures should be lowered the technology and the systems had moved on and we were able to comfortably say that yes we can do that. I think that is a good thing. I support it wholeheartedly. 
The second thing the select committee did was to set the level at $5000 automatically but the bill was set up so that it can be changed by Order in Council to be lowered over time. As the systems bed in and prove workable we can move very quickly to change that level. I support that provision as well. I say in response to Tony Ryall’s point that there is zero limit on reparation although he did not particularly highlight that fact. Before people can leave the country they have to pay any reparation due. Reparation can be awarded for personal reasons or commercial reasons. Very often people think of reparation in terms of damage done to the victim of a crime but approximately half of all reparation involves a commercial loss—for example an insurance company might have a claim against it. So half is for personal reasons and half for commercial reasons. 
Brian Connell 
: So that’s not important? 
Hon RICK BARKER 
: I am not saying it is not important. I am just saying that people quite often think of reparation in terms of personal injury or personal tragedy and of course that is very important but a commercial loss is also important. 
Mr Ryall is making some play of the fact that there is a rise in the number of fines being issued. The principal driver of that has not been court-imposed fines as Mr Worth indicated. The number of court-imposed fines has been relatively stable. It has been climbing slightly over time but is relatively stable. The rise in the number of infringement fees being issued is driven principally by the police infringement programme which is aimed at reducing speed and reducing the number of road deaths. In fact there are over 100 people alive today who would not be if there not been that focus on lowering speed. The police are not apologetic about that. The Opposition does not like the campaign against speed. It is saying it is prepared to see 100 families sit down at Christmas without one of their family members because the family member has passed away due to a road accident. The Opposition is prepared to blight another 100 families. 
The Government has played a huge role in increasing the amount of fines being collected. We inherited quite a complicated situation when we came into Government. We have introduced a call centre for the public. We have extended the hours from early in the morning to late at night. We have doubled the time they operate. We have some of the most advanced technology in the world. We have collected record amounts year on year of overdue fines. No one can criticise us on that. We collected $40 million in one year and $25 million in another. Those are big sums and there is a lot more money to be collected from people who are under an obligation to pay. 
Some members say this bill does not go far enough and the point I make to those members is that I accept there is a fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is our infringement system. It is old out of date and creaky. In fact we have over 80 issuing authorities who—[ 
Interruption 
] The court system I say to the member is creaky and out of date and it has not been reviewed in about 30 years. It is inefficient in the way it collects fines and there is a long delay from the time the fine is issued—that is over 3 months—until it is up for enforcement by a court. Another problem with the court system is that when the police issue for example an infringement for a warrant of fitness offence or an outstanding registration the individual cannot pay it off on a “pay as you go” basis then and there. The person has to go through the system and get to the court process before he or she can be granted time to pay. I think we would all say that that is nuts. We need to overhaul that system. 
Also we need quicker supervision and better management of it. No one knows—I have asked on several occasions—how much an individual owes because no one has complete oversight of the system. So for 3 months there is almost a blanket. No one can tell how much is in the system against a name—for example Rick Barker or Ron Mark. I think that is a fundamental flaw. Therefore an overhaul of the infringement system is long overdue. I am very pleased that we will be announcing some process on that in the next few months and I am sure the Opposition parties will be delighted to have a look at it and add their tuppence worth to try to help. This will be very good work and I am sure they will do their best. This bill is good legislation and I look forward to the Opposition’s support. I accept that the bill could have gone further in some areas but that is subject to a wider review of the infringement process which this Government will be doing some time in the near future. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: We are dealing with the bill part by part. The parts are quite specific and mostly refer to relevant Acts. If members would be conscious of that it would be appreciated.