Collins Judith: Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Bill — In Committee 
Collins Judith: Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:611;Page:8722] 
JUDITH COLLINS (NZ National—Clevedon) 
: 
 This part deals with enforcement and remedies. I have had a look through the provisions and they are quite substantial. I think the Minister is trying very hard to make sure that the penalties are substantial enough to stop the crooks out there from trying to rip off the people who are in fact the least able to look after themselves and that is very good. 
Brian Connell 
: The most vulnerable. 
JUDITH COLLINS 
: They are the most vulnerable as my colleague says. The only problem is that the people who will get hit by the greatest force of these provisions are the people who set themselves up in business or try to get into the business of hiring or buy-back schemes but who are not necessarily the crooks. The crooks are the people who will operate through corporate identities. They are often based off shore they will not be here and in fact will not be worth suing when they are sued. That is one of the big problems. When I look at the provisions in this part and agree with many of them—and I absolutely agree with the intention of the part—the fact is that this will not catch the real crooks and that is a shame. 
When we look at the costs involved for the individual person who has been cheated out of his or her money or who has been the victim of a scheme that does not comply with this bill we can see that the ordinary person will not be able to afford to take a case to court. I note that there is provision in the bill for the Commerce Commission to take prosecutions and I think that is great—except has anybody in this Chamber ever tried to get the Commerce Commission to take a case? I can tell members that it is quite hard to do unless one is a Minister. That is because of course most of the people we are dealing with here are the little people of the world who are not in fact able to trot along to the Commerce Commission have a wee word and say: “Now this is a big issue for you.” They are not the people who will ring the Sunday newspapers and say: “Boy have I got a story for you!”. 
 The fact is these are the very people who will never be able to take this matter to court who will never be able to get the Commerce Commission to raise an eyebrow and who will never be able to get even anybody other than their good hard-working MP to take a scrap of notice. That is because they are the people who will always be the subject of these sorts of scams and schemes. It worries me that we have this. 
I was chatting before to my colleague Sandra Goudie about this and she said: “Well what about legal aid Judith?” and I said: “Well that would be a fine thing.” That is because legal aid in a civil matter like this would be available only if the legal aid subcommittee felt there was a very good chance of getting the money back. When one is dealing with fraudsters and scam artists there is almost no chance of ever getting the money back. So reality tells me and experience tells me after 20-odd years of experience as a lawyer that for most people there is no chance at all of getting any money back under these provisions—no matter how hard we in Parliament try to get people to understand what is going on here. 
That is why it is so important that no matter what we do with this bill once it has passed into law—as I am sure it will be—we have in place proper provisions whereby we advise people what they must be aware of. If we have to go into their churches if we have to go into their communities or if we have to go to the newspapers or on television in order to let people know that these sorts of schemes are out there that they are abounding and that they are ripping people off then that is the best way to stop people from being taken to the cleaners. We have to let them know those sorts of schemes are out there and if the deal looks too good to be true then it is too good to be true. If we let people know that that is of more use than any of the provisions in Part 4 or any of the provisions about enforcement remedies. I absolutely believe there is little or no hope that people will be prosecuted under these provisions unless they happen to have fallen foul of the provisions because they thought they were doing the right thing—but they were not—and so the real crooks will get away. 
One of my big concerns is about the cost and the ability to bring the cases. We can bring all the cases we like and we can impose all the fines we like but if the fines cannot be paid the people will not get paid.