Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:611;Page:8526] 
5.  
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: What assurance can she give that her Ministers attending hui on the foreshore and seabed are upholding the four principles in the Government’s 18 August 2003 “proposals for consultation” paper? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 A firm one. 
Stephen Franks 
: How does the Prime Minister reconcile Dr Cullen’s assurance to Marlborough Maori yesterday that the Maori Land Court would be left to define customary rights with her private assurance to a select group that those rights would be delimited by statute and has television been barred from hui in case it reports discussion that would show that the so-called principle of certainty will mean nothing when activist judges are left to make up the law as they go? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member will be well aware that the Government’s proposal prevents the Maori Land Court from issuing fee simple title over these areas. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm statements she made on  
Mana News 
 at quarter to 7 in the morning to make sure that most New Zealanders did not hear them when she said that she expected there would be a much stronger role for Maori in these processes? 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My point of order is about that question. We have generally had a practice of allowing reasonably broad and liberal interpretations of the Standing Orders particularly around the use of epithets imputations etc. It is difficult to appear on  
Mana News 
 at any other time than at quarter to 7 in the morning because that is when the programme is broadcast. To imply some kind of conspiratorial theory around that is not appropriate within the Standing Orders. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As far as I am concerned that comment was not necessary to make the sense of the question right. I would like the question asked without that comment in it. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a matter of fact that most New Zealanders do not hear  
Mana News 
. Are you now ruling that we are not allowed to state a matter of fact just because the Prime Minister does not like it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I am not doing that at all. The question can be asked without reference to that particular point which is a matter of opinion. I do not know how many people listen to that programme. I do but then I perhaps get up earlier than most. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is a pretty serious matter if you are now allowing the Government to start editing out the Opposition’s questions. The reference is absolutely part of the question. The Prime Minister is prepared to make statements on  
Mana News 
 at a time that has been scheduled so that most New Zealanders will not in fact hear it including Maori. I am a former Minister of Broadcasting and there were often complaints about the bad timing given to the programme. That I think is a crucial part of the question of whether the Prime Minister will now answer the question while the rest of New Zealand is listening. In fact it would be great to see whether she is prepared to front up at a hui. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: That is not the point. The point is that in the question there was a direct imputation that the Prime Minister was deliberately appearing at that time in order to avoid most people hearing—[ 
Interruption 
] Members by interjecting even though improperly under the Standing Orders are confirming precisely the point I am making. That imputation is not necessary to the question.  
Mana News 
 is on only at quarter to 7 in the morning. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let me say that statements of fact can be included in questions only if they are strictly necessary to render the question intelligible. Could the member restate the question and I will allow him to do so. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Given the ruling you have just made can we assume that you will apply the same ruling in response to the Government’s answers to questions in which there are often suggestions imputations and all sorts of things. If that is the standard then that is fine from the questioner’s point of view but I assume that the same standard will apply also in respect of Standing Order 372 under which the replies are not meant to have any such statements but often do. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If I wanted to rule out everything that was said along those lines hardly anything would be said at question time. As far as I am concerned I am prepared to allow a little bit of give and take as all members know. I have been here long enough to allow that to occur. I invite the Leader of the Opposition to re-ask the question. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Prime Minister willing to go on the 6 o’clock news on both television channels to make the same kinds of statements that she made on  
Mana New 
—a 
programme not heard by the majority of New Zealanders—outlining the Government’s back-down on positions of kaitiaki co-management and a much greater role for Maori in resource processes? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am very happy to go on television news to talk about the 1998 customary fisheries regulations in which a National Government gave to Maori the right to make general fisheries regulations. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I would like the Prime Minister now to address the particular question which asked whether she was prepared to go on television to discuss the same sorts of issues that she discussed on  
Mana News 
. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: People will get the same answers to the same questions. I might say that  
Mana News 
 will be delighted at the advertising it has had today even if the Leader of the Opposition never gets up early enough to hear it. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. How come you can rule out the part of the question that— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I did not. I allowed the question to be restated and the— 
John Carter 
: You ruled out the comment Mr English made about the Prime Minister yet you do not rule out the comment the Prime Minister made about the Leader of the Opposition. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the member cannot get away with that. As far as I am concerned I want there to be a reasonable flow. I allowed the member to ask a question. He asked it in a perfectly responsible and reasonable way and in fact got his point across just as well. That is why I allowed it. As far as the Prime Minister’s answer is concerned her last sentence was not in order and will be disregarded. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think you have ruled fairly on that. I just wonder why it required the intervention of my senior whip to get you to make that ruling. The statement was quite audible to you when it was made. You sat and took no action until the point of order was raised. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the point of order was raised the minute the Prime Minister made the comment and the member knows that. 
Metiria Turei 
: Will the Government apply its principles of open access regulation for future generations and protection of customary interests consistently to foreshore and seabed and prevent the sale of the Westhaven Marina into private ownership or do those principles apply only to Maori-owned land? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I do not have the details of the Westhaven Marina here with me. 
Stephen Franks 
: Will the Government define in statute the limits to customary rights over seabed and foreshore to distinguish between valid and invalid claims; if not how can New Zealanders be sure that judges will not invent or revive Maori customary interests that neither Parliament nor the common law would recognise to make customary rights an exclusive race privilege? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I have stated several times there is a clear limit being placed in the proposal that prevents the Maori Land Court from issuing a fee simple title. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does she agree or disagree with the following statement reported in the  
New Zealand Herald 
 today: “Signs of a thaw in the stand-off between the Government and iwi leading the foreshore and seabed issue emerged yesterday after a hui on the tribes’ home turf.”; are there or are there not signs of a thaw in the stand-off? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government has now been listening at three hui. It appears we are beginning to be heard on the details of the proposal.