Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:623;Page:18665] 
8.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: How much Government funding was provided to Te Wananga o Aotearoa in the 1998-99 financial year and on what date did he or the then Associate Minister first have doubts that the taxpayer was getting value for money? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 The then Associate Minister of Education and I consistently had concerns about a range of issues in relation to this institution including excessive growth uneven levels of quality assurance and management and governance capability. Funding to tertiary education institutions such as the wananga under rules adopted in 1998 is based on how many equivalent full-time students are enrolled. In 2003 this Government introduced a managing growth cap on all institutions. In 1999 Te Wananga o Aotearoa enrolled 861 equivalent full-time students compared with 34282 in 2003. Funding in 1998-99 was $3.9 million. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This question was down on notice and it specifically asked the Minister on what date he had doubts. Now the Minister has had a few hours and it is quite important. He never answered the question on what date he first had doubts about the taxpayer funding. When we put a question on notice members of the Opposition have given up expecting answers to supplementary questions but we thought we would at least get an answer to a primary question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister certainly answered the first part of the question. As far as the question “on what date” could I have an answer? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think it is fair to say that my doubts pre-date my responsibilities as Minister of Education. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. “On what date” does not mean “It was some time before I took over the job.” It specifically asks “on what date”. The Minister has had several hours— 
Hon Member 
: Five years! 
Rodney Hide 
: Yes 5 years but several hours to get an answer to this question. I think it is trifling with the House—[ 
Interruption 
] Mr Cunliffe might care to interject— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Mr Cunliffe will leave the Chamber. [ 
Interruption 
] Did Mr Cunliffe interject? 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: No I had an involuntary yawn and it was purely physiological. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Mr Cunliffe will leave the Chamber. 
Hon David Cunliffe withdrew from the Chamber. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I suggest to you that when members ask questions as vague as in terms of what might have happened at some distant point in the past they can scarcely expect a precise answer. One could equally ask the member on what date did he come across this conversion that tax deductions were the answer to all problems. I doubt he could name a specific date; it is probably embedded in his genes somewhere. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the Minister addressed the question perfectly satisfactorily. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You may well have thought the Minister addressed the question perfectly satisfactorily but I wonder whether you might like to think about what he actually said. He indicated to the House that he was concerned when the wananga was picking up $4 million yet did not do anything as the figure climbed to $239 million. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order. That was a comment and the member knows it. 
Hon Harry Duynhoven 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have removed Mr Cunliffe from the Chamber and I understand the reason for that. However it raises a point about interjections during points of order. An earlier interjection was made by a member in the ACT party that Mr Hide acknowledged in the comment he made. That should also result in a member leaving the Chamber. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will make those decisions. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In light of the fact that the cap imposed by this Government saw the funding expand from $8 million to $239 million can the Minister tell us what is his response to the fact that Te Wananga o Aotearoa runs a corporate fleet of over 350 staff cars including LTD limos? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I am not aware that Te Wananga o Aotearoa runs a fleet of limos. I am aware however of a supportive statement stating that Maori should be able to set up their own universities and that we should move past the colonial view that the Government knows what is best for Maori. That separatist statement came from Rodney Hide. 
Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can I have some clarification from Mr Mallard about a statement of self-determination being separatist? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No because that is not a point of order. 
H V Ross Robertson 
: What measures have been put in place over the last 5 years in response to ministerial concerns about Te Wananga o Aotearoa? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I have quite a long list. In 2001 there was a settlement around expectations on retention completion and staircasing. The wananga was also subject to—[ 
Interruption 
] Well Mr Brownlee and staircases and pensioners are probably an interesting point. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister of course can be advised by his whips as to how long he would like question time to go on for. He is ensuring that it proceeds very much more lengthily than it would. Would he please answer the question? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: In 2001 there was an unscheduled audit from the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Government put in restrictions on the offering of inducements. In 2002 Mr McNally was appointed to advise following concerns over the rapid growth in enrolments. In 2003 the wananga was subject to a special audit and the Government introduced the managing-growth policy across all institutions. In 2004 the Auditor-General was asked to look into the issue of potential conflicts of interest. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority undertook a further audit and there was a funding review of levels 1 and 2 courses. Earlier this year I wrote to the chair— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That answer is far too long. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I was asked what we have done. There were allegations that I had done nothing; now people are saying that I have done too much. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Should hard-working taxpayers be concerned that the Ministry of Education’s Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit has said that it has no particular concerns about the contract arrangements between Te Wananga o Aotearoa and a number of contractors with family links to wananga administrators; if so can the Minister confirm that it is the same Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit that had no problems with the COOL IT arrangements at Christchurch Polytechnic that ripped off millions of taxpayer dollars? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I have concerns about that. My former Associate Minister Steve Maharey indicated that he had concerns about it. That is why the Auditor-General is looking into it. I think the Auditor-General is the appropriate person to look into conflicts of interest in tertiary institutions. 
Mike Ward 
: Is the Minister aware of the ground-breaking work being done by te wananga on second-chance education and adult literacy programmes and what value does he put on those? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I know that some very interesting work is being done by Te Wananga o Aotearoa. I know that it has put into tertiary education people who previously had not been able to get there. Whether those low-level courses in literacy are appropriate for a tertiary institution I have some doubts. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: What is the Minister’s response when I advise him that the enormous fleet of corporate wananga cars are groomed around the country by a single car-grooming company that is apparently on a contract that never goes out to tender? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Given the concerns that have been indicated to me about governance and management issues at the wananga I am not very surprised. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: What is the Minister’s response to the situation whereby the large corporate fleet of wananga cars is exclusively groomed by a company called Gazza’s Groomers which is owned and operated by Gary Wood who just happens to be the partner of the wananga’s deputy chief executive Min Marshall? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think that we have another thing to add to our list of things that the Auditor-General is looking at. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Can the Minister confirm advice that I have received today from a senior education administrator that if one were to take all the staff cars owned by every university polytech secondary school and primary school in New Zealand the figure would not reach 350; if that is so is that not yet another example that under the Minister’s administration there are two laws—one for the wananga and one for the rest of the education sector? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I had thought that the ACT party was the party that supported innovators and that paid people more according to their skills. These people have been very innovative but probably not in a way I approve of. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is I suppose complimentary to be told by the Minister that I am in an innovative party. But we are actually asking questions about his portfolio and I would like to know from his knowledge of the education sector whether it is right that the whole of the education sector put together would not have 350 staff cars. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I do not think that the member is right. Group Special Education as part of the ministry has a fleet of cars because they go around seeing children all over the place. But in relation to the tertiary part I think he is probably right. 
Rodney Hide 
: What responsibility does the Minister take for overseeing the taxpayer input into the wananga—going from $3.9 million a year up to $239 million a year—which has seen millions of dollars siphoned off into shelf companies to line the pockets of Dr Rongo Wetere and his family members and those of his seconds in command and their family members or is he content just to say he did not know? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There were three questions there; two can be answered. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think that what the member does know is that I am exceptionally concerned about it. Because of my concerns and those of Mr Maharey the Auditor-General is investigating it. The promise I make is that if there have been inappropriate payments made to Rongo Wetere— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Isn’t this the man who got upset about Tuku’s underwear? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Well that member’s underwear is always too tight. That is why he squeaks all the time. If money has gone out inappropriately then every endeavour will be made to have it returned. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not want to sound like a broken record over this but my specific question was— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: When is he senior to me? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member asked a question. He had a point of order that I presume was about his question. 
Rodney Hide 
: The member does not understand. He should get used to getting second— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will please come to the point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: My question asked what responsibility the Minister took but he answered that he was concerned. We also know from an earlier question that he has had concerns for 5 years so does his being concerned mean an acceptance of no responsibility? The question was: what responsibility does he accept? It was not: is he concerned?—because he has been concerned for 5 years over the very time all this happened.  
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. The Minister addressed the question.