8. Question No. 8—EducationNICOLA WILLIS (National) to the Associate Minister of EducationQuestion No. 8—Education8. NICOLA WILLIS (National) to the Associate Minister of Education: Can she confirm that despite the Prime Minister's announcement in May 2018 that 1750 additional children would receive early intervention support in the next year only 626 did; if so does she take responsibility for failing to deliver on the Prime Minister's commitment?Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Associate Minister of Education): In answer to the second part of the question I take responsibility for underestimating the devastating condition of early intervention support left to us by the previous Government after nine years of neglect. In answer to the first part of the question yes.Nicola Willis: Can she confirm that in every region of New Zealand waiting times for early intervention support are greater now than they were in National's final year of office?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: While I have those figures in front of me it would take me some time to find the exact page with the exact year that the member is asking about because region by region there have been variations in waiting time over the period of years the member has asked for in her written questions. So I would assume that she's picked a particular year and a particular region that she's asking for and I cannot be that specific without referring to the report.SPEAKER: The member will ask the question again.Nicola Willis: The question was: can she confirm that in every region of New Zealand waiting times for early intervention support are greater now than they were in National's final year of office?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Mr Speaker if you'd give me a moment. [Interruption]Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [Interruption]SPEAKER: Which member did that? Which member called out when the point of order had been called? The member will stand withdraw and apologise.Andrew Bayly: I withdraw and apologise.Rt Hon Winston Peters: There's always room for reasonable banter at question time but what we're hearing from over there by way of that cacophony of sound is just simply unacceptable and I'm sure it's so for the public out there as well as anybody inside this Parliament right now who's got a conscientious need to hear what the Minister's got to answer.SPEAKER: Well I don't often absolutely agree with the Deputy Prime—Rt Hon Winston Peters: I would if I was you.SPEAKER: Well the member will stand withdraw and apologise now.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I apologise for saying I would if I was you."Hon TRACEY MARTIN: Mr Speaker—SPEAKER: No no no I'm not finished yet.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I apologise Mr Speaker. I shouldn't have said that.SPEAKER: Right. As I was about to rule I asked the member to ask the question again in a way which was probably requiring more detail than would normally be expected with a question of this generality. I was being generous to the member I was supporting the member and I don't expect colleagues to guffaw while the Minister's trying to find the information—frankly more information than the vast majority of Ministers would've brought down for this sort of question in the past. I think the normal reply to this from Ministers previously where we're talking about detailed regional figures by year would be a request to ask a specific question and that would've been reasonable. The member didn't do it. I'm now going to ask Tracey Martin if she's found the correct page.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I believe I have Mr Speaker. I am advised that the tables that have been provided to the member show the waiting list data the ministry holds for early intervention services between 2012 and now are variable because there was a different system and a different format; so it's not 100 percent comparable. However I believe the member is specifically asking about the 2016-17 year and therefore my understanding is that the early intervention support waiting list numbers were at 2849. In the 2018-19 year they were at 2721 according to the table provided to the member under her written question No. 16803.Nicola Willis: So does the Minister stand by her answer to written question No. 16745 which shows that in every region of New Zealand average waiting times for early intervention support are greater in the 2018-19 financial year than they were in the 2016-17 financial year and what does that say about the year of delivery?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I thank the member for actually identifying the written question she wants me to answer on because that is helpful.Nicola Willis: You've already answered it. You should know what's in it.SPEAKER: Order! I haven't.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: So in answer to the member's question "Do you stand by the answer to written question No. 16745?" yes I do now that she has been clear about what she is addressing. In the 2016-17 financial year the average was 71.34 days. In the 2018-19 year the average is 105.91 days. I would however point out the increases that I've mentioned previously for which there was no planning under that member's Government and also that even though the wait times are greater because more staff have been employed there has actually been an increase in the number of children seen even though certain wait times have increased.Nicola Willis: What does the Minister say to the family in the Waikato region that was forced to wait 462 days for early intervention support and will the Minister act to ensure that never happens again?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I would like that member to send to my office the specific family she's talking about. If she is referring to the average length of time that was in the written answer sent to her about one particular family then again I answered that question. There was a family in Wellington for example—remembering that I don't know the family this member is talking about—who were on record: their child was waiting for 438 days. Why was that? It was because when the referral was put forward the parent then contacted the service and asked us to put it on hold. It remains open as a referral. By the time the ministry went back to the family the family said "We no longer need the service because we have had other supports." So without the specific detail of that specific family I cannot confirm whether this family's situation is the same as the one in Wellington or not.Nicola Willis: Why did the Government make such a specific commitment to children needing early intervention support if it did not have an achievable plan for delivering that and if it is clear that waiting times and lists have only grown since that commitment was made?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: The Government made a commitment because we want to make a difference for these family and we underestimated how much the Public Service cap had affected the workforce. These are public servants that the previous Government put a cap on so that no more could be hired even though in that period of time there was an increase in the need.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Stop making it up.Hon Chris Hipkins: Supplementary question?SPEAKER: No no I'm going to ask Mr Brownlee to withdraw and apologise.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I withdraw and apologise.Hon Chris Hipkins: Can the Minister confirm that the trend for a number of years has been for the wait times for all forms of learning support to be increasing and that one of the biggest constraints to dealing with that increase in wait times for those services—Nicola Willis: That is not true.Hon Chris Hipkins: —has been the lack of specialist staff to undertake the necessary assessments?SPEAKER: Right before the member answers Nicola Willis will stand withdraw and apologise.Nicola Willis: I stand withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.SPEAKER: No you can't have a point of order. We're going to have this question answered. If the member has a further one after that we'll take it.Hon TRACEY MARTIN: As I have informed the House previously under this line of questioning we have had large percentage increases in the children that need this support. There was not the workforce developed to address that need under the previous Government so it will take us some time to address the issues left behind.Nicola Willis: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance; I'm a new member—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Now whoever made that noise will stand withdraw and apologise.Hon Shane Jones: I stand withdraw and apologise.SPEAKER: No the member knows how to do it. He's had plenty of experience. Do it properly.Hon Shane Jones: I withdraw and apologise sir.SPEAKER: Thank you. Now Ms Willis if you have a specific point of order you should make it but I do want to warn the member that prefaces like that don't go down very well with someone who's been so long in the buildings.Nicola Willis: Understood. My point of order is this: the Minister of Education just said in the House that the trend is for waiting times to be increasing across areas of early intervention support. I have in the supplementary questions and in written questions referred to specific data that shows that the trend under National was that those waiting times were reducing and yet under Labour they have increased. The point of guidance I am seeking from you is how can it be that the Minister of Education is allowed to make such a false statement in this House when I have in front of me written question data which demonstrates that the statement he made is incorrect?SPEAKER: And the member has a very important and valid point and that is that assertions should not be made as part of supplementary questions unless members are absolutely certain that they are accurate because we do have a degree of trust on all of us and as the member knows as all members know as questions are submitted in writing for the primary questions there's a lot of work that goes on to make sure that they are properly authenticated. If the member has a view that something has been misleading then she's probably already indicated to the Minister that it is and it's incumbent on him to do some fact checking now. But I do want to warn members that there are a lot more questions which happen from my left and a lot more supplementaries occur from my left and if we have a very tight system it won't necessarily help those who want to make detailed inquiries of the Government if they have to provide authentication for supplementary questions.Hon Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I'm absolutely confident on the supplementary question that I asked; however the point of order that you just allowed Nicola Willis to raise at some length was completely out of order. If a member is concerned that a member has misled the House there is only one course of action they can do in order to raise that and it is not by point of order.SPEAKER: That is the case if a member is convinced that a member is deliberately misleading the House. I don't think at any stage Ms Willis suggested that. That is a breach of privilege. I was working on the basis that Ms Willis thought that the Minister had made a mistake and in that case that's not a breach of privilege but if it's a mistake it's still something that if it's found to be the case has to be corrected.Nicola Willis: Speaking to the point of order.SPEAKER: I have dealt with the point of order. Is there a further supplementary?Nicola Willis: Will she share with the Minister of Education her answer to written question No. 16745 which shows that in the years between 2013-14 and 2016-17 waiting times for early intervention support were declining but that in the financial year 2018-19 waiting times had increased from 71 days to 106 days?Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I always share with the Minister of Education whenever he seeks me to do so. I would note however that between 2014-15 in Te Tai Tokerau and 2016-17 there had been an increase."