Robertson Grant: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Robertson Grant: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 14 February 2013. Volume:687;Page:7864. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
1. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education 
: Why has he proposed exempting charter schools from the requirements of the Official Information Act 1982 something that the Ombudsmen have described as being “catastrophic”? 
Hon JOHN BANKS (Associate Minister of Education) 
: 
 I am advised that the Ombudsman’s submission to the Education and Science Committee yesterday did not—did not—use the word “catastrophic”. The Government respects the Office of the Ombudsmen. However it would be inappropriate to extend the jurisdiction of one of the Ombudsmen to partnership schools. They are not Crown entities; they will be private organisations. They are similar to the 5000 licensed early childhood education and care centres independent schools private training establishments and industry training organisations which are not subject to the Official Information Act and the Ombudsmen Act. 
Grant Robertson 
: Why should charter schools be less accountable to parents and the community than other schools? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: Charter schools are going to be more accountable to the community. Let me tell the member who has not read the legislation and does not understand it that the ultimate safeguard notwithstanding the obligations under the contract between the sponsor and the Ministry of Education is that the Secretary for Education can at any time request any information from any partnership school and that information is subject to the Official Information Act. 
Grant Robertson 
: Is he aware that the Ombudsman found that violence and bullying at Hutt Valley High School were inadequately dealt with through Ministry of Education and Education Review Office processes and fully came to light only as a result of an Ombudsmen’s investigation and why is he prepared to put the safety of children at risk by not having charter schools subject to the Official Information Act and the Ombudsmen Act? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: It is interesting that he should raise that high school in the Hutt South electorate the home of a former Minister of Education from the Labour Government. I have on reliable advice been told that it was Anne Tolley a former Minister of Education in the National Government who fixed the problem. But to answer the substantive question the health and safety of children is of the highest importance at all schools—at all schools. There will be a higher level of obligation on partnership schools than on other schools—a higher level of obligation. The Government will ensure the health and safety of all children at partnership schools through a specific statutory duty that will be enforced through partnership schools’ contracts and all information sought by the Ministry of Education sought and given will be subject to the Official Information Act. 
Grant Robertson 
: What is he so scared of in his charter school model that he will not allow it to be held to account by the Office of the Ombudsmen as the Ombudsman requested at the select committee yesterday? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: Simply because as I said in the answer to the original question over 5000 licensed early childhood education and care centres are not subject to the Official Information Act independent schools are not subject to the Official Information Act private training establishments are not subject to the Official Information Act and industry training organisations are not subject to the Official Information Act. Why partnership schools? I ask the member why partnership schools? 
Grant Robertson 
: In light of that answer is the Minister aware that private prisons are subject to the Official Information Act and why is it that private prisons should be subject to the Official Information Act but not partnership schools? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: There are no matters regarding prisons in the legislation. There are no matters regarding it. Why does the member not read the legislation? The ultimate test for that member is that the Secretary for Education can ask for any information at any time from any partnership school which would be subject to the Official Information Act. Why do you not give partnership schools a chance? Twenty percent of kids are failing. 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Point of order. [ 
Interruption 
] Point of order. A point of order has been called. 
Chris Hipkins 
: That was a very animated answer which did not address the question that my colleague Grant Robertson asked. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It certainly did address the question. It was a very animated question about why the Minister is scared of something. 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That question was whether or not Mr Banks was aware in light of his answer to the previous question that private prisons were— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: And I think he very adequately answered the question in a very lengthy process. It was very hard for the members to hear the answer—I was listening carefully—and that was because of a very excessive amount of noise coming from the member’s own benches. Are there further supplementary questions? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The problem with that answer was that it contained a series of questions of the person who was asking the question in the first place which is not allowed here. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think that again with respect Mr Peters it was the previous answer given where the Minister asked a question which is not exactly appropriate I agree. But in this case it was a robust exchange. Are there further supplementary questions? 
Catherine Delahunty 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am sorry Mr Speaker. We could not hear Mr Banks’ answer. We would like the question again because it is impossible to hear him. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: You are not getting the question again but it would certainly be helpful if when the Labour member asks a question his own side could refrain from the level of interjection we were receiving. 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I respect the fact that we need to ensure that members can hear answers. The problem we had was that Mr Banks was not answering the question— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is now questioning a ruling that I have made. I have categorically stated that in my opinion Mr Banks adequately answered the question particularly given the tone in which the question was asked. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Could I simply ask you then to review the tape after this session because I think it may be of assistance to you— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: On this occasion for the benefit of the member I will review the tape. 
Grant Robertson 
: Is the Minister’s own experience in refusing to allow his witness statement on the Kim Dotcom investigation to be released under the Official Information Act influencing his decision to make sure that charter schools are not accountable under the Official Information Act? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: There is no information in the bill before the select committee that has got anything to do with Kim Dotcom or any of his cronies. 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.  
Mr SPEAKER 
: Point of order Grant Robertson. [ 
Interruption 
] Order! There is a point of order being sought by Grant Robertson which should now be heard in silence. 
Grant Robertson 
: My question did not ask anything about a bill before the select committee. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept that. Would the member please repeat his question. 
Grant Robertson 
: As close as I can get to it. Is the Minister’s own experience with withholding his witness statement given around the Kim Dotcom donation affair influencing his decision to make sure that charter schools are not accountable under the Official Information Act? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: The problem with the Official Information Act is that it is a reactionary process towards a question being asked to the statutory authority. What we are doing with the legislation is getting in front of that with robust contracts for partnership schools with the Ministry of Education. That means that at any time the Secretary for Education can ask for information which then is subject to the Official Information Act and I am supportive of that. And all my experience around the Official Information Act said that that is a good way to work. 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We could try for third time lucky but that did not answer the question. It was a fairly simple question on whether he was being influenced in the decision about charter schools by the fact that he has withheld information around the Kim Dotcom affair. It is quite a simple question. I have not had it answered. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept that point. The only way we can attempt to get the answer is by attempting to do it for a third time. I invite the member to ask the question. 
Grant Robertson 
: Is the Minister’s own experience of withholding his witness statement in the Kim Dotcom affair around donations to his mayoral campaign influencing his decision that charter schools should not be held accountable under the Official Information Act? 
Hon JOHN BANKS 
: No no.