Cosgrove Clayton: General Debate 
Cosgrove Clayton: General Debate 
[Volume:629;Page:1815] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister for Building Issues) 
: 
 I pick up where Dr Nick Smith left off and I have to say that one can always tell when an Opposition is in deep trouble. One can always tell when an Opposition is hollowed out has no ideas and is bereft of any depth. That is the time when an Opposition starts wading through the sewer. 
I am reminded of a guy called Senator Sam Ervin who on 15 November 1954 made a very interesting speech to the US Senate. He told a story and I think it is quite apt: “A young lawyer went to an old lawyer for advice as to how to try a lawsuit. The old lawyer said: ‘If the evidence is against you talk about the law. If the law is against you talk about the evidence.’ The young lawyer said: ‘But what do you do when both the evidence and the law are against you?’. ‘In that event’ said the old lawyer ‘give somebody hell. That will distract the attention of the judge and the jury from the weakness of your case.’ ” That speech was made by Senator Sam Ervin on 15 November 1954 when he tore Joe McCarthy apart on the floor of the US Senate. 
I say to this House—and I made remarks last week—and particularly to some of the newer members that this Parliament is an institution that generally people in this country respect. I will admit that the public may not respect some of the people in it from time to time. They may not respect some of the policies or the views or the debates from time to time. But when I brought schoolkids in here as a constituent member I realised that the one thing they respect and their parents respect and the one thing they live in awe of is this place. [ 
Interruption 
] That cynical stupid comment from the numb member sums it up. The one thing that children and their parents are in awe of is the institution that is our Parliament. I refer to the plaques around the walls. Generations fought and died to preserve that thing called a democracy and to allow us to stand up with freedom of speech and put our views forward. That is what people respect. 
I invite the lawyer from somewhere up north Judith Collins to reflect on that quote and I invite her to go and read Sam Ervin’s speech of 15 November 1954. We all know about the McCarthyism era. We have New Zealand’s version of Joe McCarthy here: Rodney Hide. And I wonder what his legacy will be. What will he tell his children and his grandchildren about his legacy when he leaves this place? Will he talk about the legislation he passed? Will he talk about the great issues he addressed and the people he helped? Or will he sit down one day with his grandchild on his knee and admit that about the only thing he contributed to our democracy was to wade through the political sewer slop around in the muck a few times sleaze and crawl his way out on his hands and knees and put another notch in that enormous belt of his? 
Rodney Hide 
: He’s jealous. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Jealous? I would rather be jealous of Satan than of that member. No one in the House is jealous of that member. That member will say to his grandchild that the secret to his success was that he took a once-great party called the ACT party which siphoned millions of dollars out of the business community—never was more money spent on such a lost cause—and reduced its numbers to the current lonely two. That is the legacy he will be able to tell his grandchild about. 
I also wonder what legacy Dr Brash will tell his children about. Will he tell them about the once-great days when he portrayed himself as a sort of naive Jimmy Stewart— 
Mr Smith Goes to Washington 
—for a number of years? And that then he was tempted by the—what is the biblical phrase something about a serpent and an apple? I do not know; I have not been to church lately. He was tempted by the serpent with the apple. He waded into the sewer. He will live with the stench of that politics for the rest of his days. The biggest review that is now going on in the National Party is the one about leadership. That is the biggest review that is going on and I invite members to think carefully about it in order to preserve the institution of our Parliament.