English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:637;Page:8038] 
1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Did he apologise for the actions or failings of his Department of Corrections when he met privately with the family of murder victim Karl Kuchenbecker; if not why not? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 As I have already stated publicly I have expressed my regrets to the Kuchenbecker family. However as I realise this meeting pre-dated the report’s release I have now initiated contact with the family and extended an invitation to meet them at any time. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can he explain then why the Prime Minister told this House yesterday that the Minister and local member of Parliament had met with the family and said that they were very sorry for what had happened when today we hear from Paul Kuchenbecker that he did not take what was said in the meeting with two Government Ministers as being an apology for the death of his son? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: In checking with the transcript today I see Paul Kuchenbecker stated: “I took on board this as a personal apology from himself.” I offered that apology in a personal setting and I stand by that. 
Jill Pettis 
: Given that the Minister has acknowledged that mistakes were made could he please advise what steps he is taking to improve the system? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As I have already said probation officers have been issued with new instructions so that firstly parolees will have to report more frequently secondly probation officers will take quicker action following breaches and thirdly the Department of Corrections will provide better information to the Parole Board before parole is granted. Also the Government has legislation before the House that will include options for the police to have greater powers to recall parolees. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that both he and the Prime Minister yesterday thought that they would get away with a low-key private meeting before the Department of Corrections’ failings were evident to the public and that the only reason that he has organised—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Members should allow the member to complete his question. Could the member please start again. 
Hon Bill English 
: I will start again. Can the Minister confirm that he and the Prime Minister yesterday thought that they would get away with a low-key private visit and apology before the failings of the Department of Corrections and the Ministry of Justice were known and that the only reason he has organised another meeting is that—[ 
Interruption 
] I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The Minister of Justice who was involved in this horrendous mess is sitting there consistently abusing me through the process of my asking the question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry but I did not hear that as abuse. I heard comment as is not unusual when members ask questions. The member could be clearly heard when asking his question so I would ask him to continue please. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Order please. 
Hon Bill English 
: —that he and the Prime Minister yesterday believed that they would get away with a low-key private apology before the failings of the Department of Corrections were publicly known that the only reason he has organised another meeting with the Kuchenbecker family is that Mr Kuchenbecker went to the media to say that he was not happy with the apology he received at the private meeting and that if Mr Kuchenbecker had not gone public nothing would have happened? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: The Prime Minister was not aware until yesterday that I had offered a personal apology. I had never been asked whether I had apologised to the family and I was not prepared to politicise the family’s personal grief. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Is the Minister aware of a case where a dangerous inmate was released on parole against the advice of the police and without even notifying the police or in fact the victims of that dangerous offender and when the Minister was asked to explain that not only did he fail to apologise but also he said that he would not even comment because he was on holiday—and that Minister was a former Minister of Corrections Nick Smith in 1998? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: That’s not true; you’re making it up. 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Yes I am aware of that situation and of many other situations where mistakes occurred through the 1990s. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I have been accused of making an untrue statement. I therefore seek leave to table the media statement from the  
Sunday Star-Times 
 of 4 January 1998 which points out that when Nick Smith was asked to talk about the case he said that he would not do so because he was on holiday. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? 
Hon Chris Carter 
: Now he’s just on medication. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That member will leave the Chamber if he intervenes again. [ 
Interruption 
] I always give a warning; members have had it. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why would the Kuchenbecker family accept any further apology from the Government as genuine when the Minister has said Mr Burton’s parole was “well managed” when Barry Matthews of the Department of Corrections has said there is no blood on his hands and when the Prime Minister has said it is fine overall but there are just one or two little things to fix; why would the family think the Minister was at all sincere given that the Government has denied all responsibility for this death? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I am prepared to meet with Mr Kuchenbecker in good faith. I am not prepared to judge what he may or may not think. However as I have said several times before regarding the situation—and I will say this again now—I do not consider the way the department managed Mr Burton to be good enough. Mistakes were made and must be rectified. That is why I and Barry Matthews have moved swiftly to tighten up the way probation is managed. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: Does the Minister accept that tragedies like the deaths of Mr Kuchenbecker and Liam Ashley and the other deaths either in custody or as a result of the Department of Corrections’ decisions will continue to be regular occurrences until we have in this country a genuine independent prison inspectorate with the ability and function to proactively investigate the policies and practices of the Department of Corrections and make binding recommendations to the Government? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: We have to work to make sure these are not regular occurrences. I acknowledge that the Ombudsman is doing a large amount of work in the area of corrections—investigating on his own motion in a number of areas such as transportation. He has previously looked into the area of prison management. We take on board all of his recommendations and will continue to do so. 
Hon Bill English 
: Will the Minister make a formal public apology for the many failings of his department as documented in his own department’s report in terms of actions that culminated in the murder of Karl Kuchenbecker; yes or no? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I will meet with Mr Kuchenbecker and his wife. I will not tell that member what I might be prepared to say to them.