Twyford PhilHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour—Te Atatū): Well it might be a distraction but I want to respond a little bit to Chris Baillie the member from ACT. If I heard him right the logic was basically: most people who run businesses are good jokers therefore it's some kind of crime by the Government of the day to put in place rules that prevent people rorting the system and discriminating against people who are signed up to KiwiSaver. Is that basically the logic of it? So I urge anyone who's listening tonight to consider that that philosophy that mind-set will permeate a National-ACT Government were it to be elected in October. The country would be the worse off for it. Because that is the kind of mind-set that we heard tonight that would actually govern this House this Parliament if National and ACT were elected. This country has so much to lose.I was pleased to hear Paul Goldsmith before who has clearly softened during the years of a Labour-led Government—ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! I would like to hear this speech. Thank you.Hon PHIL TWYFORD: Paul Goldsmith has clearly softened his views; being exposed to a very capable reasonable and reform-minded Labour Government has meant that at least Paul Goldsmith has come round to the idea that KiwiSaver is something worthwhile for this country. He had the good grace to acknowledge the late Hon Dr Sir Michael Cullen. One of his great legacies during his time in politics was—well a couple of them that are relevant to this debate—KiwiSaver but also the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. Paul Goldsmith had the grace to recognise that. Kudos also to Dr Tracey McLellan who is with this bill putting right an unfortunate mistake—to put it charitably—committed by the last National Government in its dying days; an amendment to the KiwiSaver legislation that created two loopholes in the law—the first basically said that employers were not legally obliged to offer employees enrolled in the KiwiSaver scheme the same terms and conditions of employment that they offer to others. Secondly it basically opened the doors for employers to offset pay increases against KiwiSaver contributions. Now the great beauty of KiwiSaver is that it is based on the nudge. It basically creates the conditions to gently change the behaviour of New Zealanders and save more. That's important for two reasons actually. First as a country for a long long time we simply haven't been saving enough. It's a structural problem in our economy. We do not have the pools of capital to invest in our own economic development our own businesses because we haven't been saving enough.Secondly we have this wonderful treasure that is New Zealand superannuation. The universality of it means that we have some of the lowest rates of senior citizen poverty in the world but its universality necessitates a certain modesty in the scheme. That means you can live on New Zealand super particularly if you own your own home but if you don't own your own home it can be pretty tough to survive. Therefore the power of the idea behind KiwiSaver was that you're incentivising Kiwis through the nudge to save more for their own retirement and to live a better life as a result. The changes that Tracey McLellan is fixing are designed to eliminate the possibility that a small number of unscrupulous employers might exploit these loopholes effectively discriminate against Kiwis who are enrolled in KiwiSaver and undermine the incentive undermine the power of the nudge. That has the effect of undermining KiwiSaver as a whole. It could mean if it wasn't for Tracey McLellan's bill tonight that KiwiSaver savers would be disadvantaged by those loopholes. It's very clear that Labour is the party that New Zealanders can trust with their retirement income. We created KiwiSaver. Look at the enhancements in the 2023 Budget. On the other side of the House they're promising to lift the age of entitlement for superannuation to 67 against the advice of the Retirement Commissioner. New Zealanders don't like that and they won't trust it.