Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Franks Stephen: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:608;Page:5543] 
1. STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Justice 
: Given the constitutional significance of abolishing the right of appeal to the Privy Council does she support holding a referendum on the issue; if not why not? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice) 
 on behalf of the 
 Associate Minister of Justice Hon Margaret Wilson 
: No. 
Stephen Franks 
: If not why not? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Parliament is perfectly capable of making those decisions. 
Tim Barnett 
: Has the Minister seen the recent comments of Lord Cooke of Thorndon that the matter was too complicated for a referendum; if so what is her response to those comments? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I warn people about interjections during questions and that is the only time today. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I note that Lord Cooke of Thorndon who served with distinction on the Privy Council said: “I tremble at the thought of how one might try to educate the electorate in the issues involved. Parliament has to take responsibility for change as it has always done with matters of court structure.” I agree with those comments. 
Hon Bill English 
: In the light of a statement by law commissioner Ngatata Love that states: “If the bill goes through local courts will have to give greater recognition of the treaty and tikanga issues” why does she agree with Lord Cooke’s arrogant view that the New Zealand public cannot possibly understand that? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Lord Cooke of Thorndon was commenting on the fact that the Parliament of New Zealand is competent to make these decisions and said that the issues were very complex. I do note the fact that that member suggested we abolish Maori seats without going to a referendum. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If it is a fact that Maori have been consulted on this issue as she and her other Ministers claim why is there to be a hui with Ngati Tuwharetoa and if that is proper why is there not a hui with Ngapuhi the biggest tribe in this country by miles? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: There has been ongoing consultation with Maori throughout the process as there has been with all other members of New Zealand society and indeed the select committee process is designed for submissions to be made on this important matter. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: Is the Minister aware of any country in the world that has held a referendum prior to abolishing the right of appeal to the Privy Council? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: No I am not aware and indeed I am aware of Australia and Canada both abolishing appeals to the Privy Council and in neither case were referenda conducted. I should make the point that under section 128 of the Australian Constitution Act there is a requirement for referenda on changes to the Australian Constitution Act and Australia still did not have a referendum on abolishing appeals to the Privy Council. 
Murray Smith 
: Does she agree with Lord Cooke of Thorndon’s comments to the select committee yesterday that the Privy Council is going to change quite radically within the next few years and will be a quite differently constituted court with more Scottish judges and no judges from Commonwealth countries; if so how is that likely to impact on the quality of the Privy Council bench as far as New Zealand is concerned? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I was not aware of the detailed comments that Lord Cooke made to the select committee yesterday but I take it from the member that he commented on the nature of the Privy Council and how it is appointed and I think that is a matter that we should have some cognisance of. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: How is it that a discussion paper on the review of New Zealand’s court structure is now turning into a full-scale consultation on the issue of the Privy Council as claimed by this Government and why was it that at Rotorua on Monday all Maori submitters said they were never consulted and they represented all the tribes in the middle part of the North Island? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I believe that question was answered in the House on Tuesday. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Irrespective of whether the question was answered on Tuesday it can be commented on by the member now. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: The advice I have is that there has been full consultation. I think the member assumes that consultation means agreement. 
Stephen Franks 
: Is the Minister aware that Lord Cooke advised the select committee yesterday that “It is unlikely the fundamental structure of the State could be altered by a bare parliamentary majority overnight and even without any form of mandate from the people.” and in explanation of why he thought that might not apply to the Privy Council said that he trembled at the thought; if so is that the reason the Minister does not support a referendum? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: No it is not the reason the referendum concept is not supported. The bottom line is that this Parliament has within itself the power and the jurisdiction and indeed the knowledge base in order to make these fundamental changes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: In respect of the Maori people why are she and her colleagues against going to for example Gisborne Otiria up north or the heartland of Maoridom and seeing them on the marae rather than holding it in some junky hotel room? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: There is no such objection.