Brownlee Gerry; Robertson GrantHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National): Just to the Minister in the chair— so I do want to talk a little bit about the disaster funding etc. But also in the foreign affairs portfolio there's a substantial increase due to the climate change funding and in my own head those two aren't disconnected. Of course we'll also want to ask some questions about your tax and tax intentions. I note that the member Ingrid Leary who just resumed her seat seems to have gone away from the often-stated position from the Government of Nothing to see here move on." to the good old-fashioned "Water under the bridge don't worry about it." But we will be making some effort to discuss that with the Minister. So maybe as a starting point it would be useful to know how that large increase in Vote Foreign Affairs is expected to be used. It's a substantial amount that is essentially the climate change fund and I suppose the question is why it's in that vote when there are so many potentially pressing climate change issues that might need to be dealt with here in New Zealand. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I thank the member for his contribution. He'll be aware as a longstanding member that the way the Estimates debate works is vote by vote and so specific questions about Vote Foreign Affairs need to be addressed in the Estimates debate in that space. But he did ask the question about why that vote and why not other votes which is quite a clever way of trying to shoehorn it into the finance Minister's responsibilities so given that I'm giving him credit for that I'll answer that particular bit of the question. He's right that there is obviously an enormous domestic element to this and an international one and given his background the member will be well aware that our Pacific neighbours in particular are under enormous stress when it comes to climate change. The additional funding is in Vote Foreign Affairs because that is the appropriate vote to be able to deliver to those countries particularly within our region. These matters arise in part to do with New Zealand's internationally determined contribution which we take seriously as a Government. That requires significant additional resourcing and we have decided to target a significant part of that resourcing to the Pacific hence why it appears in Vote Foreign Affairs. In terms of the domestic side of that I thank the member for the opportunity to mention the National Resilience Plan which was a new feature of this year's Budget. That's a $6 billion fund initially to be able to get New Zealand into a position of greater resilience and to get ahead on issues to do with particularly adaptation to the climate events that that member is indicating. When we began working on this idea it was before the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods and Cyclone Gabrielle and we had the idea that this would be an opportunity to get beyond business-as-usual on infrastructure and get ourselves to somewhere where we're starting to get ahead on the deficit. The truth is—and I said this on Budget day—that the reality now will be that at least the first couple of years of that plan will be dedicated to the rebuild of those regions because there is now so much to do in the form of adaptation and resilience. It is a commitment to build back better in those regions because—Hon Michael Woodhouse: Ha! Joe Biden's in the room. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That's a slogan that many use Mr Woodhouse around the world but giving it reality means actually putting some resource behind it. So we are working our way through and the member will be aware of some announcements already made about the kinds of resilience initiatives we're doing in the transport area for example which mean that we don't just build the road or the bridge back where it was but we actually look to do it in a way that is more resilient and similarly with investment in the broader regional recovery plan. So while—yes—the member is right that there is a big boost in the Vote Foreign Affairs area in this space equally there is a significant lift in funding more broadly. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (National): So on that vote—that very large vote—which now comes under the whole title of foreign aid effectively was his department at all concerned about the $147 million administrative cost for that fund given that that represents about 20 percent of the foreign aid budget exclusive of the climate change funding that's been added to that fund? Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): We are now getting into the position where we are debating Vote Foreign Affairs and that is not the way in which this particular proceeding works. What I can say to the member more generally is that—yes—the Treasury and myself take seriously making sure that administrative costs are kept to a minimum. When it comes to administering large amounts of money in the foreign affairs budget that's certainly something that we would expect but the member does need to take those matters up in the appropriate Estimates debate. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (National): Point of order Madam Chairperson. With all due respect to the Minister he's responsible for the State's spending and I asked a question—Hon Dr David Clark: Ha ha! Ha ha! Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Oh is he not? Hon Dr David Clark: No—the long bow. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! Order! Hon Dr David Clark: It's the long bow. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Shush! Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Yeah—point of order Madam Chairperson. Someone should go. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Has the member finished his point of order? Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: No I haven't. I haven't made it yet. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): OK—all right. Thank you. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: I've been interrupted. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Thank you. I've—Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: May I make the point of order? CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Oh point of order—Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Yeah—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): —the Hon Gerry Brownlee. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: —the point of order is that the Minister is saying to take it up with foreign affairs. The whole Budget is the responsibility of the Minister of Finance and it seems to me that asking a question like: was his department concerned about the extremely large amount of money that is going to administer a budget—an administrative cost that in any other circumstance would be completely unacceptable. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): OK thank you. I will take some advice. Hon Members: Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): No I'll just deal with this matter thank you. OK—Hon Grant Robertson: Point of order. CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Well I'm actually just about to rule on it and as you can see I have taken advice. I am advised that it is in order for any member to ask a Minister any question in the Estimates debate. However if the Minister advises that that is not their area of expertise then that is the answer."