Swain Paul: Budget Debate 
Swain Paul: Budget Debate 
[Volume:639;Page:9526] 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 That really was a disappointing and pathetic speech from what was actually one of the high hopes of the National Party Tony Ryall. He was part of what they used to call the brat pack in the good old days. He was one of the ones National put a lot of hope in that he might be part of a new-breed team. Well of course he demonstrated in that speech that he is tired and it is about time he moved on as well. 
He asked what we would find if we went out on to the pavements and asked people what this Budget was about. The people who have been interviewed about it have said it is about the future and about savings. They have answered the question that Tony Ryall asked. 
His speech had no fizz. In the old days he used to have a bit of fizz and a bit of sting. It was a tired tired speech that once again did not talk about anything that National would do. 
He talked about tax cuts. The bizarre thing that the National Party keeps doing is that one member says that now is the time for tax cuts then another member says that now is not the time. Bill English for example says that now is not the time for extensive tax cuts; that is what he said. Tony Ryall on the other hand comes into the Chamber and says that people want a tax cut and National will deliver it to them. So the question we always ask of the National Party is what its policy on tax cuts is now. I have no idea. No one has any idea. I think that is really really disappointing. 
Then Tony Ryall had the gall to compare Labour with National on health policy. What an outrage that is! People have possibly forgotten that National introduced charging for hospitals. Do members remember? National called hospital stays bed nights—at one stage it toyed with calling them hotel nights—and tried to work out what a night would cost. As one went into hospital the hospital staff did not feel one’s pulse; they felt one’s wallet. We were heading towards the Americanisation of our health system. National will return to these things in the future if it ever has a chance. Thank goodness it is not likely to be in my lifetime but if it ever has a chance we will go back to those things of the past. 
I think the debate to date has been very very disappointing. The Budget debate is probably the most important debate we have in Parliament during the year. It is an opportunity for the Government to present its Budget to look at where it is going and where it sees New Zealand going and to look at the kinds of policies we should be implementing—the policies for the future. It should be a debate about vision about direction and about policy. This is the seventh term of this Government and each of them has built on the previous one. This Budget is the one for our times. It talks about the importance of savings and investment for New Zealand at a time when the economy is really roaring along. 
That is what the Labour-led Government has promoted and we expected the National Party initially to oppose it because that is what Opposition parties do—they just oppose. They say: “We don’t like that. We think that’s wrong. We think that’s stupid.” What we expect then and what I think people listening to the debate expect is that the National Party will go on and say what it would do. We have constantly asked the National Party to tell us what its policies are and what ideas it has instead of it just opposing. 
R Doug Woolerton 
: What do they say? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Well it does not have any idea at all actually. There are no ideas at all. For example National is saying that KiwiSaver is not the right thing to do that it is an outrage and that National would give people tax cuts. That is what its members are saying. I have two things to say about that. Firstly they have not acknowledged that swamping the economy with tax cuts would mean that ultimately following a few lines down the track those tax cuts would be completely absorbed through mortgage interest rate rises. That is what happened in Australia. National members do not add to their glib tax-cut argument: “Oh well if we do that of course your mortgage will go up.” One never hears that bit. The Minister of Finance has said that we have some surpluses and we do want to create some opportunities for people and the best way is to put that money into people’s savings so that they are planning for the future on the one hand and so that we do not undermine people’s mortgage interest rates on the other. That is a clever and smart piece of economics. But all we hear is that National would give tax cuts. 
We heard originally from the National Party that there would be huge tax cuts then we heard there would be little ones and now we hear there would be cuts over a period of time. Bill English said just recently that now is not the time for extensive cuts. Tony Ryall says that now is the time for tax cuts. All that anybody in this House wants is to hear National members say what the policy is now. If the National Party ever came into Government would there be tax cuts in its first Budget by how much who would get them and who would get what? 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: That policy will be changed by election time! 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes but National members are supposed to be working through this policy. Remember they called for a thinktank I think it was a thinktank of ideas. They were getting some people back to try to help them with the policy development. The issue really is if the economy were really pumping along and overheated as it is at the moment would National propose tax cuts that would increase the heat of the economy and increase mortgage interest rates? That is an interesting question. If the economy had softened and slowed a bit how would National afford tax cuts? No one in the National Party is giving New Zealanders any view that that member has any understanding of how the economy is working at the moment. Those members have no understanding of or view about what they should be doing in terms of leading New Zealand forward. 
Then National members attack KiwiSaver and the whole retirement programme. If one looks at what the Labour-led Government has been doing over the last few years one sees that we have been saying that one of the things we cannot have is elderly and retired people being uncertain about their income. We cannot have that. At a time when people cannot go out to work to supplement their income—and most of them cannot—they need to have some certainty. What they know what is ringing in their minds is that National cut superannuation the last time it had the chance. The National Party is now talking about raising the age of eligibility. That is all right if one is an office worker but if one is a builder with a back that is shot it is no good. 
The Labour Government has made it quite clear. We have established the floor under which New Zealand superannuation will not go and we have said that we will not raise the age of eligibility. We have also said that we know that a whole lot of baby boomers are coming up for retirement during the next few years so we need to plan for that and that plan is called the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. As I recall the National Party I think was opposed to it for a while. 
Moana Mackey 
: I think so for a little while. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: For a little while it was. National members said it was an outrage sucking all that money out of people and we should give it back to them in tax cuts. But I think now as I recall— 
Moana Mackey 
: The focus group did. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes the focus group told them it was a bad idea. But now I think they support it do they not? I think they do. This week they support it. So we have a good superannuation scheme going forward with a floor and increase in the age of eligibility. We have the Superannuation Fund there and are making sure that the interest off the earnings of that fund are poured back into superannuation to make sure that when the baby boomers come to retire we can afford to pay their superannuation. 
Add to that the KiwiSaver scheme. People starting new jobs contribute 4 percent of their income they get 4 percent from the employer and they get a 20 percent tax credit. What would National do about KiwiSaver? One would think that it was a central piece of the Labour-led Government’s Budget so one would be interested to know what National was saying about it. People want to know. Well this is what Bill English said on 19 May: “We reserve the right to have a look at it.” This is the National Party finance spokesperson. He really is nailing his colours to the mast! He really is getting off the fence—“We reserve the right to have a look at it.” He went on to clarify if one was not really certain about that: “If the government changes then the Government can look at the policy.”—if the Government changed the Government could look at the policy—“They (savers) cannot assume that is going to be exactly the same in every detail if the government changes.” 
Well I think people now have got the hang of KiwiSaver. They like the idea and they want to hear from National what the changes would be. Would National scrap it? Remember National had said it would scrap the Superannuation Fund. Is it going to scrap KiwiSaver or is it going to make changes to it? What would the changes be? Is it going to increase the entitlement or is it going to reduce the employers’ contribution? What would the changes be? People need to know these things. The National Party needs to know that no one is going to treat it seriously until such time as it starts to spell out some of these things. We know that it has opposed things in the past then supported them in the end. 
The debate is disappointing. We want to hear what National would do and what it would do if it ever were in Government which fortunately will not be in my lifetime.