Smith Lockwood: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Smith Lockwood: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 15 May 2008. Volume:647;Page:16012. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
8.  
Dr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National—Rodney) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: What were the terms of reference of the Oughton inquiry into Mary Anne Thompson’s involvement in family members from Kiribati wrongly getting residency in New Zealand? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 I am advised that in summary the terms of reference cover the following: first whether a residence decision was made within authority; second who was responsible for that decision; third compliance with Government residence policy in any irregularities; and fourth to highlight processes surrounding this decision for the attention of the chief executive. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Given those terms of reference why does the Minister allege that that inquiry was merely a matter relating to the employment of a staff member when the actual final report of the inquiry was  
Review of Apparently Unlawful Immigration Decision 
? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: The matter as the member states was in relation to an unlawful immigration decision actioned by an individual or individuals. That of course— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: When would they not be? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: That is a very good point. That being the case it is an employment matter for the chief executive relating to individual employees. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: When the Minister of Immigration at the time was first briefed on the Oughton inquiry in April 2007 what action does the record show that that Minister took in response to a review of apparently unlawful immigration decision-making in his department? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: That Minister acted lawfully and by the book as did this Minister. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What did he do? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Well if the member pipes down I will tell him. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Did they cover it up? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Well those members preordain the answer to the question which speaks volumes about them. The advice that that Minister received was the same advice that I received—that matters related to individual employees are employee matters. He was advised of that. He noted that it was a matter for the chief executive because there is no employment relationship between Ministers and departmental staff and that is where it stands. He acted by the book. And I say this: if my predecessor or I had intervened unlawfully against section 33 of the State Sector Act I bet members $100 that that member would be asking a different series of questions about why Ministers had overreached their authority and breached the law. They cannot have it both ways and the member knows it. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Is this Minister telling the House that the then Minister of Immigration David Cunliffe knew about the inquiry by David Oughton into unlawful decision-making in his department in April last year yet never asked for or received a copy of the completed inquiry report nor asked for a full briefing on that final report? Is that what he is telling the House—that David Cunliffe never asked for a full briefing on that final report? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: No. I admire the member’s ability to twist words. What I am saying is that in April the Minister was briefed and latterly in respect of the report the Minister like me had no right to demand and was precluded from demanding a copy of that report or the contents— 
Hon Bill English 
: That’s rubbish. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: —no it is not and I invite the member to go and see the State Services Commissioner about it—and had that Minister not played it down the line by the book as I have done he would be in breach of the law and that member would be asking why he had breached those laws. 
Taito Phillip Field 
: Is the Minister aware of other illegal immigration decisions relating to movements of people from the Pacific in particular involving one Thai restaurateur given a 2-year business visa when in fact he had no business and no money; is he aware of that decision? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The Minister should remember the restrictions about matters before the court. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Oh absolutely; I observe that completely. The member does not provide enough information in his question for me to make a judgment on that. The answer is no. I would also say that if the member like Dr Smith and others has further information about particular cases he has a number of courses of action open to him. The chief executive on 17 April embarked upon a robust open review of the Pacific branch. I am assured by the new chief executive that that review will deal with any and all issues in the public arena or any and all issues that members or other members of the public bring to his attention. Secondly the member has the option of delivering any evidence he has to the State Services Commission which itself is investigating wide-ranging matters and which by 14 December when I was briefed was involved because the chief executive had invited it to be involved. Thirdly there is now a police inquiry into other matters and it would be inappropriate for me to comment. The member can exercise that option if he so wishes. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: What changed between the time when David Cunliffe the then Minister of Immigration was briefed as he now alleges on completion of the Oughton inquiry in July of last year and when he himself was fully briefed in December last year on the Oughton report—what changed between then and April this year when the Oughton report was exposed to public scrutiny other than the fact that the cover-up was over? 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: In order to assist the member I tell him that the previous Minister was not briefed in December. I was the Minister at that time.  
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: I said you. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: No the member said “the Minister at the time” and “the previous Minister”.  
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: You’re wrong. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: I think we may need stretcher-bearers for one particular member. This is a serious issue and should be dealt with in a serious way. We may need stretcher-bearers for the other Dr Smith. Can I say— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: There is a point of order; it will be heard in silence. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: The Minister in reciting my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith’s question was mistaken in his restating of the course of events. In response to an interjection from me saying that he was wrong I was then subjected to personal abuse. I think it would be helpful if Dr Smith re-asked his question—in which his dating and timing were correct—because it seems that the Minister was confused about the question that my colleague Dr Smith was asking.  
Hon David Parker 
: I as well as Minister Clayton Cosgrove listened carefully to the question and I am clear that the question that was asked included the imputation that the Minister was the prior Minister not the current Minister and that is the point to which Mr Cosgrove was responding.  
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank members for their interventions. I think if members would keep the noise down it would be easier to hear. As I have said interjections do occasion responses. Would the Minister please just respond to the question as succinctly as possible. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It would appear that confusion has arisen around my question. It was very clear. I would be very happy to repeat it to avoid that confusion. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No I think we should take it in the order it was. I am happy to look at the  
Hansard.  
I heard it also in the way that I am afraid others did. The member obviously feels that he did ask another question. As I said I am happy to go and look at it later. Could we have a succinct answer to the question and there is always an opportunity to ask another question—there are still supplementary questions available.  
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. We are on question No. 8 and we have had Dr Nick Smith running interference on every question across the House. He is not asking questions; he is just interjecting and yelling out personal comments. I think we have just about had enough today and I ask you to require him not to continue going on in that fashion.  
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well I think that today comments have been made from all sides of the House. Obviously it does create disorder and it has. Members have noted the comments that have been made from all sides of the House on this matter. Could I please ask the Minister to succinctly address the question and then we will ask Dr Smith to ask the question again. Thank you. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: The previous Minister like me was not given the content of the Oughton report. That is a fact that pertains to both of us. Prior to the Oughton report becoming public the State Services Commission and legal advice were both engaged. Both Ministers were advised that these were employee matters. The Oughton report then was released and I took the view at that point that there were wider issues especially the one of public confidence. I wished to assure myself of matters pertaining to that so I asked the State Services Commission to widen its inquiry.