Russell DeborahDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour—New Lynn): Thank you Madam Chair. I am delighted to speak to this bill. There are a number of issues that have been raised by members on the Opposition seats that I would like to just get the Minister to comment on.The first one is that in some ways this bill—and it is substantial. It's been described as being of a minor and technical nature and it does seem odd in respect of 500 pages of a Supplementary Order Paper; that's substantial. But actually something substantial can still be minor and technical and I would like some discussion on this. The objective of this legislation was not to create new policy. It was not to create new categories of assistance. It was not to change relationships around.So my understanding is that this particular bill was really designed to as it were simplify existing legislation to tidy it up. Of course doing that would lend a great deal of assistance to front-line staff. That was an issue that was raised by members on the opposite benches. There's a couple of ways you can make things easier for front-line staff who are dealing with welfare payments—the entitlements that we all have. One is of course to tidy up the legislation and that's exactly what I think this particular piece of legislation is trying to do. It's trying to make things tidier and easier.But of course the other way that you can make things easier for front-line staff is to have leadership from the top that says that New Zealanders get their entitlements that they don't have to bow and grovel and scrape and somehow plead with a Work and Income (WINZ) officer. I think that the stories that we've had coming out of WINZ in the last few years the way that people have been treated there under the previous regime—it's utterly shameful and I am so glad that we have a Minister who will make sure that New Zealanders get their entitlements—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley): Order! The member will not bring me into the debate.Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL: I apologise Madam Chair. So let's talk a little bit more about the attitudes we have to our fellow citizens in need. We actually want to make it possible for them to get the entitlements that we have given to them—not because it's charity not because we're somehow compassionate or anything; it's because we think that as New Zealanders we should look after all of us. This legislation is helping us to do that.I want to go on a little bit further on that. You see one of the things about the way that WINZ has operated—my apologies Madam Chair. One of the things that has operated at WINZ in previous years and that we are now having to combat is the way that individuals have been made to feel small and mean. They can now go ahead and use this legislation to find their entitlements easily.There's another aspect of this. You see one of the things we are interested in in this country is universalism. We have universal super and we have introduced in here another aspect of universalism and that's to do with the winter energy payment. I heard one of the members on the opposite side of the Chamber talking about people who had approached him saying they found it ludicrous that they were going to get the winter energy payment. Well I'd just like to point out to that member of the committee that there is a rescue for these people and I would urge you Mr Macindoe to point it out to them: it's new clause 65D(1) in Supplementary Order Paper 25: A person entitled to a winter energy payment may make an election not to receive the payment."I would like the Minister to comment on this because I actually see it's a really important aspect of this. You are not required to take money from the State but we do want to give people their entitlements. It's an entitlement for our elderly people—some of the most vulnerable people we have. They can no longer go out to work. They can often no longer earn an income. There are so many of our elderly who survive on superannuation alone. This winter energy payment will make a huge difference to them.I would like to understand from the members on the opposite side of the Chamber why they do not want to help our senior citizens. Why are you so hard-hearted? Why are the members on the opposite side so keen to take every little scrap away from people? I would like to hear a little bit more from the Minister about that if you could elucidate exactly why we believe in universalism and that lot don't."