Robertson Grant: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeRobertson Grant: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 11 April 2013. Volume:689;Page:9287. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]3.GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Leader—Labour) to thePrime Minister: Did the acting Prime Minister inform him that he had signed a Ministerial certificate suppressing details of the involvement of the GCSB in Operation Debut when he returned from his overseas trip in August 2012; if not why not?Hon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister): As I previously told the House I think some time last year the Acting Prime Minister did not inform the Prime Minister’s office or him that he had signed the certificate because he rightly thought that the Government Communications Security Bureau would inform his office or him. However it failed to do so.Grant Robertson: Can he confirm that in his 4 years as the Minister responsible for the GCSB the ministerial certificate signed by the Acting Prime Minister was the only such certificate signed in that time?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes but of course I would not expect the Deputy Prime Minister to know that because he is not involved in those processes.Grant Robertson: Why did the Government Communications Security Bureau director Ian Fletcher not raise the issue of the ministerial certificate that the Acting Prime Minister had signed at their meeting on 22 August only 5 days after the Acting Prime Minister signed it?Hon BILL ENGLISH: On behalf of the Prime Minister I simply was not at the meeting so I cannot answer that question.Grant Robertson: Does he stand by his statement that the Acting Prime Minister—Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I apologise to my colleague. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is a point of order. [Interruption] Order! It is a point of order. It will be heard in silence.Hon Trevor Mallard: I ask you to reflect on the answer that we have just got. It took me a little while to work my way through it. The Prime Minister cannot say he was not at a meeting that he was at. He said: “On behalf of the Prime Minister I was not at the meeting.” The Prime Minister was at the meeting. That is the whole point. He had a meeting with Mr Fletcher.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I am sure if the question was asked again the Acting Prime Minister would deal with it adequately. The point is that he did say that he was unable to answer as Acting Prime Minister because he was not at the meeting.Mr SPEAKER: I think the way forward is the question will be asked again.Grant Robertson: Why did the Government Communications Security Bureau director Ian Fletcher not raise the issue of the ministerial certificate the Acting Prime Minister had signed with him at their meeting on 22 August only 5 days after the Acting Prime Minister signed it?Hon BILL ENGLISH: I cannot answer that question on behalf of the Prime Minister because although he was at the meeting I was not.Andrew Williams: Given that Mr English the Deputy Prime Minister stated on3 News on 3 October 2012: “I assumed the intelligence agencies would be informing the Prime Minister about their activities.” how can we believe that the Prime Minister did not have foreknowledge of that certificate?Hon BILL ENGLISH: I do not think the member has any grounds to make that assumption or not make that assumption. He would have to direct that question to the Prime Minister in person.Grant Robertson: Given that he has stated that this was the only ministerial certificate signed in his time as Minister responsible for the GCSB and that he thinks the bureau should have told him about the certificate has he asked the bureau director Ian Fletcher for an apology?Hon BILL ENGLISH: These matters have been discussed extensively and assertively.Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was a very direct question. It did have a preface about statements that the Prime Minister had made but it—Mr SPEAKER: Let us have the question again.Grant Robertson: It was not written down.Mr SPEAKER: I might be able to help.Grant Robertson: The end point of the question was: has he asked Mr Fletcher for an apology given that it was a ministerial certificate which had never been done before in 4 years?Hon BILL ENGLISH: As I said before these matters have been discussed extensively and assertively to my knowledge. Again you would have to ask the Prime Minister in person the question about—Hon Trevor Mallard: You are the Prime Minister.Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well yes but I can answer the question only if I have the knowledge and actually in my capacity as acting on behalf of the Prime Minister I do not have that knowledge. You would have to direct the question to him.Andrew Williams: What led the Acting Prime Minister to believe that the Government Communications Security Bureau had briefed the Prime Minister?Hon BILL ENGLISH: As I think the Deputy Prime Minister has said publicly he assumed that because the intelligence agencies met regularly with the Prime Minister they would be advising him of any higher-profile procedure or policy matter that came before him. On reflection of course the Deputy Prime Minister would have been better not to have made that assumption.Grant Robertson: In light of what he described as a “red flag” about illegal spying being given to him in July—that the status of Mr Dotcom’s residency had been discussed in the High Court in August—does he consider that the Government Communications Security Bureau director Ian Fletcher fulfilled his duty to him in not briefing him about the case?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Mr Fletcher has fulfilled his duties in respect of uncovering and dealing with a culture of low compliance in the organisation. As outlined in the Kitteridge report this would be one example where the bureau could have acted more thoroughly in its relationship with the Prime Minister and I am sure—in fact I can tell you the Prime Minister has made that view clear to it.Grant Robertson: Has the Deputy Prime Minister apologised to the Prime Minister for not briefing him about a ministerial certificate the like of which had never been signed in his 4 years as Minister?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes but those discussions have also included the necessity to deal with aspects of the way the intelligence agencies operated which meant in this case that the Minister in charge of the agency was not informed as he should have been on a matter of some importance.Grant Robertson: I seek leave of the House to table a letter from Simpson Grierson lawyers dated 15 August 2012 to Ian Fletcher the director of the Government Communications Security Bureau seeking information held by the bureau about Kim Dotcom and three associates.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that particular letter. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be tabled.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Grant Robertson: I seek leave of the House to table a letter from the Government Communications Security Bureau director Ian Fletcher to Simpson Grierson lawyersdeclining that request but acknowledging that information was held about Mr Dotcom by the bureau dated 16 August 2012.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that response letter. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It can be so tabled.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.