English Bill: New Zealand Flag Referendums Amendment Bill — First Reading Second Reading In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeEnglish Bill: New Zealand Flag Referendums Amendment Bill — First Reading Second Reading In Committee[Sitting date: 23 September 2015. Volume:709;Page:6973. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister): I move That the New Zealand Flag Referendums Amendment Bill be now read a second time. It has been interesting to hear some of the strongly expressed views in the House including some of the deranged views referred to by my colleague Tim Macindoe in his last speech.I just want to comment briefly on how this bill has come about. We have found the Greens disruptive and ungrateful to deal with. We have found that it does not really matter what you do with them and whether it is successful or not the effort is ultimately greeted with personal invective and the grabbing of all the credit and attacks on the National Party. That is our experience. That is why we took seriously the one constructive thing I can think of that they have come up with in the last 5 or 6 years. Because as difficult disruptive and ungrateful as they are—and occasionally dangerous—it turns out that they are less so than the Labour Party.Jonathan Young: It’s the new Greens.Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well the Labour Party has managed to make—it is not that we have managed to make the Greens look constructive; it is that the Labour Party has managed to make the Greens look statesmanlike. Labour members have managed to make the Greens look like they care about how New Zealand is represented to the world. They have managed to make the Greens almost look like they can see something larger than this week’s political point-scoring to be rated by the twitterati which is the world that the Labour Party is caught up in.The leader of the Labour Party was presented by the Prime Minister in his generous way—sometimes too generous—with an opportunity. He could have grasped it. He could have said that the Prime Minister has indicated that the Government is a bit flexible about what is on the ballot and there is a surge of unexpected but clearly strong popular support for the Red Peak flag. He could have said in the interests of making sure New Zealanders have a wider range of choice reflecting the fact that most of them paid no attention to this process until it was almost too late that Labour would work with the Government to ensure that Red Peak goes on the ballot but Labour did not do it. It could not do it because Grant Robertson keeps dragging that leader down.From the opportunity to show a larger view about the country a bigger view above politics which any Prime Minister has to do—the rest of us do not but a Prime Minister occasionally has to look like his main concern is the nation not his caucus. His main concern is how New Zealand is represented not whether the Women’s Weekly is going to decide who is the deputy of the Labour Party.So Mr Little listened unfortunately—I think probably against his better nature actually—to his advisers and decided to play politics. Why? Because in the Labour Party caucus there are—I do not know how many of them are; there is a lot fewer than there used to be—35 votes or something but if Trevor Mallard is against it that decides what happens. Mr Mallard was obsessed about whether there is a yes/no vote upfront and the advisers whose instincts are still those of student politics—that is let us score some political point and try to keep this thing going about how the flag is all about John Key—the Labour members then all of sudden found themselves irrelevant because of all those internal forces that prevent them dealing with any issue in a sensible way let alone something that was a bit demanding—that is the flag issue.All I can say from our experience of dealing with a range of parties across this Parliament is you really have to mess it up to make the Greens look constructive. You really do. I mean with New Zealand First you do not expect anything positive. You know not to because it does not follow the same kind of logic that every other political party does so you just put it to one side.To make the Greens look constructive and positive you really have to mess it up. That is what is telling about this debate because this is meant to be the future Government actually. It is meant to be—and I know this is not the time to debate that Mr Deputy Speaker. You are probably going to stop me.Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well read.Hon BILL ENGLISH: But all I want to say is that it has worked out pretty well in the practical way that New Zealand can work these things out.I have overseen the flag consideration process.Grant Robertson: Well now we know why it’s been such a shambles.Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well I am very happy. I stood at the press conference to launch it as I did with the constitutional process. It is actually run by the same person Professor John Burrows.The flag consideration process was set up to depoliticise it. That was the whole point. The whole point was to have a process that the politicians do not stand over with all their manipulations and manoeuvring. I mean we can handle a political process well but clearly the Opposition and left-wing parties cannot because they do not know how to do anything without being threatening manipulative and telling only half the story. So that is why we did it that way.It is a difficult task and I know there are people saying: “This designer has an opinion and they got it wrong this way and that one says they got it wrong that way.” Well you know all of them are right of course. Of course the panel did not get it right in the sense that everyone is happy with what they chose but that is what they chose and we have followed the process. Cabinet accepted its recommendations and those four flags have gone on the ballot.I am sure actually from the preponderance of the fern that the panel—or pretty sure—must have been influenced by some expression of public opinion and now there has been another expression of public opinion. We have had the choice of sticking with the completely independent objective process—which at least will have the satisfaction of irritating the member for Hutt South if nothing else—and just sticking with it. But actually there has been this strong expression of opinion and the Prime Minister has indicated—and now Parliament actually—that Red Peak is going to go on the ballot.I think this is an important point. Gradually the public are taking this issue off Parliament and I think that it is a very good thing. As long as it has been considered and has been part of the to and fro the Opposition is going to insist that it is all about John Key and so on. The fact is that Parliament has voted for a referendum. It has voted the referendum process in. There will be votes. It does not matter what Grant Robertson thinks. There will be two votes. They are going to happen. More and more of the public are starting to understand what a historic opportunity it is to make a choice.Actually none of us will decide because in the referendum we get one vote each. That is it—one vote. I want to acknowledge the fact that the Greens understand that. The Labour Party does not understand and possibly never will under the current leadership team that it has. The Greens wanted to give the public more choice and actually a radically different one.I never thought of Red Peak being a good flag. I do not think the Flag Consideration Panel did. This is how you can do it in a small country. But it is just a shame that the Labour Party remains as it will right through this process incurably political about it.Who knows what would happen—how New Zealanders would vote—if there was a future Labour Government? Given Labour members’ vindictive politicised manipulative DNA it is quite possible they will try to overturn the result of a process like this whereas I know the Greens would not. I know the Greens would not.Grant Robertson: For goodness’ sake! Grow up.Hon BILL ENGLISH: Oh so Labour would not overturn it? OK so let us just get this. It is for changing the flag but against actually having a vote to do it. It does not like any of the flags that are there because everyone is against change but if it does change it will not overturn it. Well at least that is a positive result out of that contorted logic.So I am pleased that Parliament has this opportunity. I think the public will be pleased. I want to acknowledge the unexpected role that the Greens have played and the way that it has shown up the limitations of the Labour Party.