Rich Katherine: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Urgent Questions 
Rich Katherine: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Urgent Questions 
[Volume:638;Page:8091] 
4.  
KATHERINE RICH (National) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Does he stand by his reported comments that schools moving towards adopting Cambridge exams did not indicate a lack of confidence in NCEA; if so what exactly does it indicate? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 In the last few days I have become aware through news reports of a small number of schools that have expressed concerns about the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) and are therefore considering offering overseas exams. They are of course entitled to offer overseas exams if they want to as long as they continue to assess students using NCEA. 
Katherine Rich 
: If everything is progressing swimmingly with NCEA why are so many more schools looking at offering alternative exams? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I do not think it is so many more. A few are listed in the paper. I thought one of the people who put his finger on one of the problems with the system is John Langley who leads the college of education as part of Auckland University. He recently pointed out in an article in the  
New Zealand Herald  
that one of the difficulties schools have is that of course parents did not sit their exams under NCEA and one of the ongoing debates is about their ensuring they get the best possible qualification for their children. As John Langley pointed out it therefore rests on the profession which has pretty much universally agreed that standards-based assessment is the way forward to get out and talk to parents about this issue because we need to build confidence in the assessment system. 
Moana Mackey 
: What reports has the Minister had on confidence in NCEA? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I have had good reports—in fact I would say very good reports—from the 2006 NCEA exam season. The results show that student achievement has continued to improve. There is growing confidence in both the internal and exam processes. Feedback from teachers to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority was positive. Minor problems were fixed straight away. Of course as people know other changes are yet to come but a number of recommendations were made last year and over the summer a group has been working with the New Zealand Qualifications Authority on a range of design features. I am hoping to receive their report soon. I hope they will also help to restore confidence in our standards-based assessment system. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Has the Minister considered scrapping the standards-based level 4 scholarship assessment with its inevitable low levels of reliability and instigating a statistically moderated scholarship examination in which our top academic students would compete on a level playing field for the monetary rewards available as was proposed in the initial NCEA policy papers; if not why not? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I have not considered that. As the member will know the improvements that are taking place around scholarship seem to have restored confidence in that system and that is what we will stay with at the moment. 
Katherine Rich 
: As the Minister has now told the House that the problem happens to be in the minds of parents who are putting pressure on schools and raising concerns about NCEA what does he say to Brent Lewis of Avondale College a decile 5 State school who says that there are major concerns amongst himself his staff and parents and that there is significant pressure from the community to offer an alternative to NCEA? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: It is worth just saying as a preface to the answer that I did not say what the member said. She makes a profession of putting words in other people’s mouths. In answer to the second part of the question I think there are concerns about NCEA in the community particularly amongst parents who want the best for their children—as no doubt the member does—but I think we all agree that we are going down the right road with NCEA. We want a standards-based assessment system. The operations of that system are very good and that has been happening for 2 years now. We have some design features to go and one of the problems that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority will have to deal with this year is getting out and making sure that people have the system fully explained to them. 
Katherine Rich 
: Members in this House just heard the Minister in answer to a previous question talk about initiatives he has undertaken to “restore confidence” in NCEA; is he not admitting that at present there is not enough confidence in NCEA if he is doing all this work to restore that confidence? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am not sure where the member has been over the last few years but the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and NCEA have been major controversial issues. Over the last 2 years we have moved to ensure that the operation of the system works well and it does. We have changed a range of design features and they have been supported; we have some more to do yet. 
Katherine Rich 
: If there is such great confidence in NCEA why has the Minister just told the House today that he is working to “restore confidence” in NCEA? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I said the member does make a profession of putting words in people’s mouths. [ 
Interruption 
] I pointed out to the member—and if members on the other side were quiet enough they could listen to the answer as they want the answer—that I think we have arrived at a point now where the profession has a lot of confidence in what we are doing. It agrees we are going in the right direction. But I think that after all the troubles we had in rolling out this system there is a way to go yet to ensure that parents—and I include employers—understand this system fully. After all most of them would have done their examinations under the old School C and UE system. This is new to them and we need to make sure they understand it. 
Katherine Rich 
: If the Minister’s message today is that he is going out there to restore confidence in NCEA and that the problem lies in the heads of parents—not in principals and teachers—why does he continue to wax lyrical about improvements in results; and can he guarantee that those students are actually learning more and not just gaining more credits? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I will have to do what I usually do with this questioner which is to say that in the first part of the question once again she put words in my mouth that were not there. No one is saying that the problem is in the heads of parents; we are saying that the experience of people of that generation is quite different to the experience of NCEA. It does mean we have to get out and talk to people about how this system works. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. We have a problem with this Minister—and I am not taking sides here. If a member puts a question to a Minister that is factually not true then the correct way of addressing that is through a point of order. If the question is correct it is to be answered as best the Minister can. The idea that a Minister can repeatedly reply to a member’s question by somehow questioning the accuracy and veracity of the question is actually out of order and of course defeats question time. It burns up the time for Opposition members’ questions and we have seen that repeatedly here today. If the Minister is correct then he should make a point of order about it. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: The member is totally and utterly wrong in that regard. The ability to question by way of answer the veracity of the facts in a question has been there for a very long time. Indeed if the member cared to think he would see that his own approach would take a great deal more time. If a point of order ensued every time there was a doubt about what was asked in a question then the question presumably would have to be disallowed we would carry on starting again and we would go on and on. The one thing that always holds up question time is a whole series of points of order and one thing that I think has gone very well in recent times is that we have managed to reduce quite significantly the number of points of order at question time. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I point out in relation to the point raised by the member that one of the things that often happens in the House now which did not use to happen is that people will rise and start not with a question but by prefacing a question with a long preamble of how they would like the answer to have been for them and then ask the question. I think it is reasonable under those conditions for Ministers to say: “I didn’t say that.” 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank members for their comments. The first point is that Ministers can refute any factual statement in their reply. It is also true that there has been a practice on all sides to start not with a question or answer but by making a factual statement a statement or an assertion. That of course then invites a reply. So I ask members to comply with the Standing Orders in asking questions and to attempt to ask them succinctly.