Peters Winston: Insolvency Law Reform Bill — In Committee 
Peters Winston: Insolvency Law Reform Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:634;Page:5744] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 Can I just say that I was rather interested while listening to the radio and not being in the Chamber to find that one of the most critical issues concerning the National Party in respect of the Insolvency Law Reform Bill is the question of service. Apparently a fellow colleague who is usually in this House at the same time that I am—probably to no effect whatsoever mind you—decided that he could not find his colleague so he had to come to the launch of the Back Bencher exhibition which I was launching to serve notice. 
It takes a certain type of character and a certain type of personality to think that the right thing to do is to attack a parliamentary colleague—but not while he is in the House and can defend himself. Oh no! He waits until his colleague is not there. It is a sort of “ambush ‘em in the back” tactic. He is the kind of person who would if he were in the army demand a job as a sniper a long way away from the action where he could shoot from a position of safety without ever having to confront the enemy. 
It takes a certain type of character to decide that despite the fact that his colleague is a very well-known New Zealander—I might just say that humbly myself—he could not find him in New Zealand. He had to come to the launch of the Back Bencher exhibition which I was launching because that was the only place he and his lawyers could serve notice on me. Does anybody in New Zealand believe that? 
Shane Jones 
: No. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: No they do not. 
Hon David Carter 
: I raise of point of order Mr Chairperson. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Oh he cannot take it—I knew that. He can dish it out but he cannot take it. 
Hon David Carter 
: I am happy to take it but the member might also like to tell the Committee that parliamentary laws do not allow the service of such documents in the precincts of Parliament which is where we would have wanted to do it if the member had allowed us to do so. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: The member should not have raised that point of order; it is a matter of debate. I say to the Rt Hon Winston Peters that we are debating Part 2. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: I know Mr Chairperson but— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I am still talking. I have allowed the run-in to that because I know the member will get to it. I have allowed whatever the member is saying as being in rebuttal—fine. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: In the circles in which I mix we talk of nothing else and that is why I am taking part in this debate. 
Here is the point. Briefly there for a while every good New Zealander would have thought we had a problem with the issue of service and our insolvency laws. That of course is the last problem we have. We have problems in other areas but the country yokel does not know that. And now David Carter tells me what the rules are in respect of the Parliamentary Service! I make it very clear that every parliamentarian can waive his or her rights to not being served in this House as I have done. In fact when Russell McVeagh sued me I went down to their offices and got the writ off them. Mind you what happened to the case? They sued me for millions in a gagging writ—[ 
Interruption 
] One of Mr Carter’s friends of course. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Which friends? 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Russell McVeagh—they are friends of Mr Carter. Of course a while ago Mr Carter yelled out: “Pay your bills!”. Well let me just tell members about this issue. Mr Carter thinks he is winning because I had to pay him $8000 which I did happily. It was not a problem; it was a mere bagatelle—I am only a poor country boy! 
I will ask you a question Mr Chairperson because I know you are a man of the law. How much do you imagine Mr Carter has paid his lawyers so far? Who is winning here? I gave him $8000; he paid his lawyers $95000 so who is winning? It ain’t Mr Carter! More important let me tell members what happened in this huge matter on which he wanted service. He went to the court and said: “You know all those horrible things I said about Winston Peters when he was away from New Zealand? I didn’t mean at all that he was a corrupt human being in any way shape or form.” Mr Carter is a big lion in the media and a lamb when he is faced with— 
Dr Richard Worth 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This speech is way out of order. You have properly given to the Rt Hon Winston Peters an opportunity to make some short rebuttal comments. This has no relationship at all to Part 2. He is abusing the privilege of being a member of Parliament in not speaking to the part. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Thank you for raising that. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I distinctly heard Mr Peters draw to the Committee’s attention the need for one to pay one’s bills and various things like that. If one cannot pay one’s bills that leads directly to the issue of insolvency. The member opposite Dr Worth is a lawyer; I would have expected him to make the connection. But I am happy to outline it for him and I am sure Mr Peters is as well. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Thank you for helping me out there. The right honourable member was speaking in rebuttal but he has touched on matters that are relevant to this part more than most members have done so far in the debate. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: I have to be frank here. I never thought for a moment that in all the halls of jurisprudence in this country the issue of service was what was concerning them. I never thought for a moment given that there are lawyers in the National Party like Mr Worth— 
Hon Member 
: Who? 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Mr Worth. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Dr Worth. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Well Dr Worth—on a good day! I never thought for a moment that Dr Worth had appraised his party of the fact that this was the No. 1 issue concerning insolvency law reform. But you see this party is split three ways. That is why the C-team came along today and said: “You’re qualified Dr Worth. I know nothing but I’ll take this issue on and have a go in the Chamber.” That is why I have responded. 
I am trying to address the issue of service because apparently it is a huge issue. I want to make one little point though. The service was effected. There was no problem paying the bills. But it is amazing that someone who is so bold outside the House and all around Parliament should say—in the conniving sneaky way that bespeaks his whole professional life—of all things when he gets to court: “I never meant any of the words I said about him. I cannot understand how it came about.” 
There is another little thing. It was reported to me that this man said about Gerry Brownlee: “If you’re talking about the fat fella from Fendalton forget it.” That is what Mr Carter said recently. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: You’re joking! 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Oh yes. He was asked about the leadership of the National Party and he said: “If you’re talking about the fat fella from Fendalton forget it.” 
Lindsay Tisch 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. You cannot allow the member to go on in this fashion. It was brought to your attention previously in the 5-minute speech that he is completely out of order. We are debating a bill—quite specifically what the bill is about. I ask that you instruct the member to be brought back to the bill. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: In speaking to the point— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: No. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: This is very important. This goes towards decorum in the House. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Are you trying to help? 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I am indeed. You know me. I just ask for your advice given that Mr Peters told the Committee what Mr Carter said about his own colleague which I will not repeat. It is unparliamentary for a member to say such a thing and I take offence on behalf of Mr Brownlee. I call on Mr Carter to withdraw and apologise to Mr Brownlee. 
Hon David Carter 
: I can assure the Committee that I did not ever make those comments. Mr Peters cannot prove that at all. I did not make those comments. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I know where we are on this matter. David Carter quite correctly tried to use examples in speaking to Part 2 but he did refer to another member of Parliament specifically for his example and I think it is right that I allow the counterargument from Mr Peters in the time that he has. I have done that and he has referred many times to issues in Part 2. He is entitled to have time for a rebuttal and he is doing that. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Part 2 is about the nature of bankruptcy and the process of being made bankrupt. Because that is not “service”; it is the process of being made bankrupt. I for a long time in my legal career have been very concerned about the total process of insolvency and some of the unfairness arising from it. I am bringing to the Committee’s attention the character of a person who would have a go at a guy who is not in the Chamber when he knows he could have waited or given me some notice and I would have been here. 
But let me say why I am not surprised. When that member was the National Party whip whose duty it was to support his leader he was the numbers man for Jenny Shipley against Jim Bolger. His whole career is filled with that sort of behaviour. That is why I mentioned his quotes to somebody inquiring about the National Party leadership when he said: “If you’re talking about the fat fellow from Fendalton forget it!”. That is what he is like. He is probably as nice as pie in the caucus to Gerry Brownlee. He is probably as nice as pie to everybody else. But he is a seething mass of discontent and backstabbing when he is away in private.