Hide Rodney: Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill — Second Reading 
Hide Rodney: Unsolicited Electronic Messages Bill — Second Reading 
[Volume:636;Page:6856] 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 I rise on behalf of the ACT party to oppose this bill. We believe that when we pass law in this Parliament it should be able to work. I listened most carefully to Mr Auchinvole’s speech which I thought was a very very good speech but I listened in vain—to a man who had sat on the select committee—to hear how this bill would stop spam. I heard that the bill—and I think this is the purpose of the bill—“will send a signal” I think was the phrase used that spam is unacceptable. Well we can signal all we like but at the end of the day signalling through Parliament that we do not like spam achieves nothing. 
Chris Auchinvole 
: In itself no. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Well we have now had an acceptance from the key proponent of the bill from the National side that this bill “in itself” does nothing. So we are sitting here in Parliament debating a bill and putting a bill on our statute book that does nothing “in itself”. If we want to have respect for the law and if we want our law to mean something it actually has to serve a purpose and achieve a result. But this legislation does nothing. It is true that everyone hates spam it is true that everyone is bothered by spam but nothing sticks in the public’s craw more than having MPs stand up and in a high and mighty way say that they oppose spam too and say: “Look at us; we are passing a law against it.” But it is a law that will not stop one piece of spam in New Zealand whatsoever. Members should ask themselves where this spam comes from. It does not come from Mrs Brown in Te Kuiti; it comes in from overseas. This bill will do nothing to stop spam. 
I listened very carefully to the Hon Paul Swain who has clearly given this legislation some thought—and typically vacuously come up with nothing. But Mr Paul Swain drew attention to a series of emails in his speech and I suggest to the Government that when Mr Swain is thinking about those emails it is a problem the Government could do something about. But is the Government interested? What we have seen with the emails and correspondence that appear in Mr Nicky Hager’s book is a degree of political espionage that we have never seen in New Zealand before. I do not think we have seen it in any Western country before. It is not possible for those emails to have been leaked and it is not possible for those emails to have been a series of leaks. When I read the book it is clear to me that there has been covert surveillance of members of Parliament of this House offices broken into and computers hacked into from outside. The Leader of the Opposition’s computer has been hacked or broken into. Staff members in this Parliament have had their computers hacked and so have other MPs. The computers of private citizens have been accessed. 
I am appalled that a former Minister of this Government has stood up and made trite comments about those emails trying to score some political points yet has not dealt with the serious issue here which is who is behind this espionage? Who is behind this criminal activity? Who is behind putting MPs of this House under surveillance? What terrible forces that would stoop so low are operating in our democracy? I should put on record that I do not believe for a second that the Labour Party is behind it. I do not believe for a second that any political party in this House is behind it. But as MPs as representatives of our democracy and as believers in the rule of law we should be united in saying that this sort of activity and espionage is totally unacceptable in any country in any democracy. 
I find it somehow richly ironic that Nicky Hager in his book makes his conspiracy theory about the few trying to dictate to the many—and trying to do so secretly—when he himself is party to or is perhaps a pawn of the few who have been behind this espionage in order to effect an outcome in an election. Nicky Hager has admitted to taking emails criminally obtained through espionage and selectively leaking them to the media in order to effect an outcome in an election. That material has been obtained in that criminal way that covert and systematic way not once or twice not just for days or even weeks or months but for years. 
 Nicky Hager does not reveal his sources. He does not tell us who these shadowy figures are. He does not tell us who is behind the book and the material he has. He does not tell us—the people of New Zealand and the people in this House—what their motives were. Oh no! It is enough that Nicky Hager has this material. 
I say to the Hon Paul Swain and to the members of the Government that something very serious has gone on here. I heard my colleagues from the National Party mention Watergate. Well actually with Watergate there was only one break-in. Several break-ins—serial break-ins and surveillance—were involved in what we have here. We all as MPs have an interest in this because which others have had their computers hacked? Do we seriously believe that what has gone on here has been done just on the National Party? Why would it be just the National Party? I am sure that every one of us is as vulnerable as the previous National leader found he was in respect of his system and as National MPs their staff and supporters found they were with their systems. What happened to them can happen to each and every one of us. Who is behind it? What is it saying about our democracy? 
I take grave exception to the Hon Paul Swain trying to score some cheap points and I expect our Government to be pursuing whoever is behind this espionage. I tell members that the noose is tightening around the necks of the perpetrators of this. We are closing in on them and they will be revealed. I say that there is a big story to be told here and I believe that every political party in this Parliament—indeed every New Zealander—has to believe that the systems we operate in this Parliament are secure. If Don Brash’s computer can be penetrated then the computers of Michael Cullen the Prime Minister and any other Minister can be penetrated. There is a very very serious issue here.