4. Question No. 4—Disability IssuesHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) to the Minister for Disability IssuesQuestion No. 4—Disability Issues4. Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) to the Minister for Disability Issues: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Disability Issues): Yes in the context in which they were given.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: When she told this House last week that carers have been able to spend on such things for themselves as pedicures as massages as overseas travel" what evidence or data does she have to base that statement on?Hon Penny Simmonds: I had a paper that was given to me by Whaikaha in February which noted from providers that the fund had been used for such expenses. I didn't make any insinuation that those would be inappropriate. That was just stating what the fund had been used for at that time.Hon Members: Table it.SPEAKER: Well when your own team's quiet then go ahead.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister quoted from a document. Will she table that document?SPEAKER: No you can ask the Minister if she is quoting from a document that she has in her possession in the House. Other than that—if it's here and she's relying on it then perhaps you could ask that question. Other than that—do you have the document with you?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: No.SPEAKER: OK. That's the end of that.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Supplementary Mr Speaker?SPEAKER: Yep just wait for your own colleagues. Away you go.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Does she agree with her office who told Newshub that they didn't have any numbers but that the Minister had heard it anecdotally and if so does this Minister make policy decisions based on hearsay?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: No I don't make policy decisions based on hearsay. I had a paper from Whaikaha which indicated that providers had stated the fund was being used for such purposes.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Does she accept that her statements and actions haven't been evidence-based and have led to disability communities losing trust in her as their Minister and to the Prime Minister stripping her of her major decision-making ability in this portfolio and giving it to Cabinet?SPEAKER: Just a minute. All members in this House should be taken at their word and what I heard the Prime Minister say earlier is that there has been no stripping of responsibility; there's been what appeared to be a return to normal practice. So I'm going to ask the member to rephrase the question.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: Does she accept based on what her office has told Newshub that her statements and actions haven't been based on evidence and they have led to disability communities writing in droves saying that they have lost their trust in her and to the Prime Minister saying that Cabinet will be making major decisions on her behalf?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: No I have not been making decisions on hearsay. I had a paper from Whaikaha that outlined from providers what the spending had been spent on. Thank you.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: What is the point of her remaining as the Minister for Disability Issues if Cabinet is now chaperoning all her decisions in this portfolio and the very communities that she claims to represent no longer have confidence in her?SPEAKER: No sorry. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Point of order.SPEAKER: The member should know the system of Government we have in New Zealand. There is Cabinet-collective responsibility for all Government decisions. So the question is not in line with even our system here let alone in order for the House. Have another try at no loss to the party's allocation.Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: What is the point of her remaining as the Minister for Disability Issues given that there's been reporting that she will not be making major decisions in her portfolio—SPEAKER: No no. Look I'm sorry you can't do this. You can't infer something that is not correct. No Minister makes decisions outright on matters like this. There would always be a Cabinet paper—[Interruption] I'm still ruling—so just think about how you ask that question; it is possible.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker.SPEAKER: Point of order Rt Hon Winston Peters was trying before—Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Well I was first.Rt Hon Winston Peters: No you weren't.SPEAKER: No he was trying before frankly I shut him down.Rt Hon Winston Peters: You'll never be first from now on.SPEAKER: Sorry can you say it so I can hear it?Rt Hon Winston Peters: My point is very specific. You've got members of Parliament getting up there and then statements which they cannot in any way justify verify or authenticate they're putting it in part of their question over and over day in day out. And Mr Speaker that is not the standard of this House and it should be restored to what it used to be.SPEAKER: And that is what I ruled on right at the start of question time and I'm just gently taking the Parliament to that place. I'll hear the point of order.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: It's on your ruling Mr Speaker. The first is that it's actually incorrect. The Cabinet Manual does not require Ministers to consult Cabinet on every decision that they make. In fact the Prime Minister determines which—[Interruption]. It's a point of order—it's a point of order. The Prime Minister determines which decisions they want the Cabinet to be consulted on or not so that is absolutely a legitimate question. The second of which is a member claiming in their question something that has been reported is an absolutely legitimate thing to do in a question. The Minister can disagree with the reporting but actually claiming that it has been reported is not out of order and is in keeping with past practice in the House for the entire time that I have been here.SPEAKER: Well two things. First thing is I'm perhaps a victim of my own experience which would suggest that if the Minister is going to be making changes to the expenses or incurring greater expense than the Budget has allowed then they would normally take that to Cabinet. I'm not going to argue with you over that. On the issue of how the answer has been given Speakers' Ruling 207/3 probably helps me get the position I have as does 4 and you could go right through it. Some of these I admit are a little bit conflicting. But I am trying to get to a point where we have a question time that does elicit information and gets it. So would the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan like to ask that question again with a little bit of a different focus?Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan: What is the point of her remaining as the Minister for Disability Issues given that she has lost the confidence of the very communities that she represents in Government and has made statements about carers that her offices confirmed were based on anecdote; and if so will she resign?SPEAKER: It just takes time but sooner or later we get there.Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: First of all I will confirm that my decisions weren't based on hearsay they were based on a paper that was given to me by Whaikaha. Secondly I won't resign because I have inherited a situation where Whaikaha had a budget set by the previous Government that was insufficient for the settings that were in place and so additional funding has had to be given to ensure they can get through the end of this year. A review will be undertaken to put in place the systems the processes the settings that should have been put in place by that Government when they set the ministry up."