Shearer David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeShearer David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 20 August 2013. Volume:692;Page:12573. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]3.DAVID SHEARER (Leader of the Opposition)to thePrime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):Yes.David Shearer: Is it correct that section 14 of the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill which prevents targeting of New Zealand citizens for intelligence-gathering purposes does not prevent targeting of New Zealanders for cyber-security purposes as outlined under section 8A of the bill?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Section 8A makes it quite clear in terms of cyber-security what the purpose is. In particular it says: “to do everything that is necessary or desirable to protect the security and integrity of the communications and information infrastructures …”. That is backed up by section 15A which makes it also quite clearunder what purposes a warrant can be issued which of course would be required. It says it has to fit the purpose of performing the function under section 8A. I am sorry the member does not understand the law but that is his problem not mine.David Shearer: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was very specific. It actually asked about section 14 of the bill—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am going to invite the member to repeat his question.David Shearer: Thank you. Is it correct that section 14 of the Government Communications Security Bureau and Related Legislation Amendment Bill which prevents targeting of New Zealand citizens for intelligence-gathering purposes does not prevent targeting of New Zealanders for cyber-security purposes as outlined under section 8A of the bill?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The member is getting confused. Section 14 applies to New Zealanders not in relation to cyber-security. That is section 8C. Section 8A is in relation to cyber-security.David Shearer: Would it not be better that the protection of New Zealanders against cyber-intrusion by the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) be stated clearly in the bill to give them reassurance that their content will not be accessed?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: That is the very point; it is in the law already. It is in the law and—Hon Members: No it isn’t.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes it is. I am afraid it is in the law. It is in relation to section 8A which makes it quite clear in terms of cyber-security that the function is for protection not for surveillance. Section 15A makes it quite clear that a warrant is required. I have made it quite clear that within those warrants—and I am spelling out what no other Prime Minister before me has actually ever done and that is tell the House how I am going to be using the warranting provisions.David Shearer: Is there a specific clause in the bill that will allow a two-stage warrant process as he has outlined?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes. What I have said is under section 15A of the bill a warrant will be required that has to fit the purpose of section 8A and that is about the protection of data. I also made it quite clear that those warrants will exclude content being viewed from New Zealanders—David Shearer: No it won’t.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes it will and the member who is a member on the Intelligence and Security Committee will be able to check up any time he likes by asking the director when they come once a year.David Shearer: That is reassuring! Does he agree that the fact that he has needed to clarify the law through the media and through a third reading speech which we are expecting show that rushing through legislation as important as this in an ad hoc manner does not give New Zealanders reassurance?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No the opposite. Actually this side of the House completely understands the legislation and has. This side of the House has made it quite clear right the way though that the cyber-security function is about the protection of data. It is about protecting secrets not getting other people’s secrets which is what section 8C is all about. This side of the House came into Parliament to debate the legislation understanding it. That side of the House had absolutely no clue spent hours and hours and hours on Part 1 making stuff up through a filibustering process and now when it finally understands the law it wants to—David Shearer: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that has gone on long enough.Mr SPEAKER: The member might well say that but that is not a point of order and it is not his role to determine whether it has gone on too long.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [Interruption ]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I apologise to the member. I have a point of order.Rt Hon Winston Peters: It is a point of order. I want to know why you did not stop the Prime Minister in that finishing diatribe—it went on for a long time.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. I am the one who determines when a question has gone on for long enough. In that particular case I was rising to my feet as the member David Shearer rose to his feet. But I not the right honourable gentleman will judge the length of answers and the length of questions.David Shearer: Is he prepared to include a protection of New Zealanders against cyber-intrusions in his legislation and support my Supplementary Order Paper on the matter?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: It is already there.David Shearer: No it’s not.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: You see when you do not understand the law and then all of a sudden you act like a bush lawyer—Mr SPEAKER: Order! That answer is not going to help the order of the House.David Shearer: Is the Prime Minister saying that the Law Society the Human Rights Commission the Privacy Commissioner Geoffrey Palmer and many others also do not understand the law?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes.David Shearer: Did he or anyone in his office ever contact the Labour Party to obtain broader support for the bill?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I cannot believe the member is asking that question. If he wants me to answer it I will get on my feet and do so.David Shearer: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that was a question. Did he or anyone in his office ever contact the Labour Party to obtain broader support for the bill—you contact me?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: OK—[Interruption ]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I want to hear the answer.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: OK. Yes Mr Speaker. After one of the Intelligence and Security Committee meetings I asked Mr Shearer whether he would like to come to my office to have a discussion. We sat down and had about a 30-minute discussion where Mr Shearer said: “Keep this confidential. If you come out and say we’ve done it that won’t look good and I don’t want you shouting it out about the House.” My deputy chief of staff went to see Mr Goff and also went to see Mr Robertson. On numerous occasions we reached out and at one point—Grant Robertson: No no no. Don’t make stuff up.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: If the member really wants to get down and dirty members of the Labour Party said they did not understand the law.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Bledisloe Cup was on Saturday.David Shearer: So he is saying that he initiated contact with me after the—[Interruption ]Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member has every right to have his supplementary question heard.David Shearer: Is he saying that he made contact with me after the Intelligence and Security Committee meeting and that it was my request that he should remember that?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I am afraid the member is wrong. I went up to the member after the Intelligence and Security Committee meeting and said “Do you want to come to my office?” to which the member said yes and I said that we would probably takethe stairs to avoid the other guys. We actually waited for the other members in particular Dr Norman to leave so that he did not see you coming up to my office. [Interruption ]Mr SPEAKER: Order! If members on the right-hand side wish to see the balance of question time they should respect the position I take when I stand and call for order.David Shearer: In the course of that discussion did he say to me that he did not really care whether we supported it or not because he already had Peter Dunne over the line?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I did not say exactly that I did not care. What I—[Interruption ] No. I will paraphrase the words roughly. What I said was that we had the numbers to pass the legislation and I knew that if for political reasons he was just going to carry on the way he was going because Grant Robertson was calling the shots fair enough—we would just get on and do it. The member also said he wanted a sunset clause and I said you have got to have rocks in your head if you want to have that because if you ever want to be the Prime Minister you will never get the Greens over the line.