Mallard Trevor: Urgent Debates — Te Wananga o Aotearoa—Auditor-General’s Report 
Mallard Trevor: Urgent Debates — Te Wananga o Aotearoa—Auditor-General’s Report 
[Volume:628;Page:555] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development) 
: 
 It is interesting to watch as a debate goes on. After one has been around this place for some time one notes that a degree of shrillness comes into members’ voices at the point when they see their futures disappearing. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why did you back down? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I will get back to the member’s many errors soon. The member Nick Smith realises probably along with Bill English that he must do something soon about the position of the National Party. People have been in the House long enough to know that National members had so many opportunities to attack the Government today yet they did so badly. That is why the level of shrillness keeps going up and up. I do not always agree with my ministerial colleague Winston Peters but I think he got it absolutely right today when he pointed out how badly the National Party has done in Opposition. Unlike this party which is a very reasonable group—even to the point of sharing each other’s water on occasions; I will have a new one please— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Six hundred million dollars and you’re talking about the water! 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Here we go. The member should hold his for a while. The member opposite is getting very very shrill because he knows that by the time the National Party is next in Government he will no longer be a member of Parliament and he certainly will not be in consideration for a Cabinet position. He knows that and he is beginning to panic. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Why don’t you talk about the Auditor-General’s report? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Well that is the member who punched the former chief whip. He is trying to say: “Have a balanced approach to life.” but his approach is to go around beating up his colleagues when he gets a bit tired and emotional. That is the approach of Nick Smith.  
But we go back to Bill English. He tries to be balanced to be fair to him. He says one thing to Pakeha and another thing to Maori. I saw Willie Jackson in the Gallery—I can see him again—he knows what Bill English said on his radio programme. He said: “Let the wananga have its head. Let it go. Mallard should not control it.” That is what Bill English said but what did he do today? He came into the House and said that I should have controlled it more.  
There has been a really delicate approach to this matter. It is clear that we are dealing with a chief executive who through a council started a very small business had it converted to a Crown entity and never grew the proper systems in order to continue to do the work that was necessary. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: So why did you give them more money? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The only decision that was taken by a Government to give them more money was when Nick Smith was the Minister of Education in 1999 because unlike the National Party this Government does not decide course by course and institution by institution how much money tertiary institutions should get.  
We are having a lot of interjections from a very tired and shrill Nick Smith. [ 
Interruption 
] I would not even say strident. No “strident” involves some sort of control. One has to know what one is doing to be strident and Nick Smith cannot do that.  
The key is that Rongo Wetere never developed the systems for a Crown entity. 
Hon Pete Hodgson 
: Who are his political mates? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: He is clearly a National Party member. I want to know in fact how much of the $42000 that was taken out in cash actually went to the National Party. That would be one of the questions for that National Party member. How much of that $42000 of unaccounted cash which was taken out of cash machines by Rongo Wetere ended up in the pockets of Don Brash and his mates for their campaign? He is a National Party member. He campaigned for the National Party. He was told by Don Brash inside that he had Don Brash’s support. Of course when Don Brash went outside in his normal way he said something else but that is one of the things that is done in the National Party.  
It is what Bill English does. When he is addressing brown people he is very supportive of them and when he goes outside he attacks them. When he comes here he attacks the wananga in such a way that if he did it outside it would be described as racist. But what does he say when he is on Willie Jackson’s programme? He is totally supportive of the wananga on Willie Jackson’s programme but when he comes into the House he is critical of it. One of the things you will find out Bill English is that you get caught. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member is not allowed to refer to you as part of the debate. You should bring him to order for doing that. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the member. If I brought all members to order when they used the word “you” during the course of this debate we would not even have a debate. But the member is quite correct. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: In the interests of clarity I make it clear that I want to talk to Bill English and make it clear to him that this Government is disgusted by people who say one thing inside the wananga who say the same thing on Willie Jackson’s radio programme but who go on National Radio and come to this House and say exactly the opposite. There is a word for people like Bill English. One is not allowed to use that word in the House because it is not parliamentary. It is one of the reasons that John Key not Bill English will be the leader of the National Party in 12 months’ time. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I note that the former Minister of Education has now spoken for 7 of his 10 minutes. We are supposed to be debating the Auditor-General’s report on Te Wananga o Aotearoa and its financial difficulties. I have listened very carefully to the Minister and I think those hard-working taxpayers who have contributed the $600 million would actually like some answers. We have heard all sorts of personal abuse of members of the Opposition and anybody else but I just wonder Mr Assistant Speaker whether you would be able bring the Minister back to the point of the debate which is the Auditor-General’s report into the wananga. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the member for his contribution. I have been listening at length and the member has referred at times during his speech to the wananga. But I ask him to continue to do so for the last 3 minutes. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: All I ask for is that National Party members be consistent. Let us be consistent. Let us say the same thing inside the wananga and the same thing outside it rather than as Bill English does time and time again saying one thing when he thinks only brown people are listening and saying something else when he thinks only white people are listening. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. After what must be the fifth or sixth repetition of the member’s accusations I take offence and ask him to withdraw because they are not true and they are offensive. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member is taking objection under Standing Order 116 “Personal reflections”. I ask the member to withdraw. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I withdraw. I will be very clear. When that member speaks on Willie Jackson’s programme which is heard by Maori people he says one thing and when he comes into this House he says something else. I make one thing clear: the members have repeatedly asked what changed. 
Hon Bill English 
: What happened to your $600 million? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The member cannot even add. In July six of the wananga council—a majority of the council—resigned. That meant— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What about the chairman? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The chair did not resign. The chair is a man of incredible integrity unlike the member. The man has an amazing amount of integrity. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Parliament is a robust place where people can say many things but they are not allowed to question the integrity of another member as Mr Mallard did quite directly just then. He should have to withdraw that remark. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Speaking to the point of order there is an obvious approach that needs to be taken. If Nick Smith to whom the point was addressed wants to take offence of course I will withdraw. One cannot take offence on behalf of another member. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I remind members that under Speaker’s ruling 39/4 “Words or phrases used robustly in debate but which do not impugn the honour of a member will not be ruled out of order.” Unless someone takes personal exception to his or her integrity or courage being challenged then we will continue with a robust debate. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have put up with all sorts of personal abuse from the Minister during the course of the last 8 minutes. His latest statement is out of order. He said that the chairman of the wananga who has been responsible during this appalling Auditor-General’s report has far more integrity than I do. I think that is a poor reflection on my own integrity; I take offence—as my colleague said he said that I had none. That is clearly a breach of the Standing Orders. I take offence and I ask him to withdraw. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member has now taken offence under Standing Order 116. I ask the member to withdraw. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I withdraw. The point that I would make is that six out of the 11 resigned. The majority went and therefore I agreed to let things run until we got the Auditor-General’s report. It is very clear that if things go off the rails then the commissioners are on their way. The members opposite know that; they have known that for months unless they are absolutely stupid. [ 
Interruption 
] No I did hope to make the decision before the election—absolutely right. Do people know why? The reason was that the Auditor-General’s report was due in May. When did we get it? It was today. That is why the decision could not be made and if those members are so slow that they do not understand that it is about time some of the bright members from the back of the House came down the front.