Seymour David; Robertson GrantDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Thank you Mr Chair. I'd like to take the Minister up on an answer he gave earlier where he said that Government spending as a share of the economy as a percentage of GDP is high now—it's about 35 percent in this forecast period—but it will return to the long-term average of around 30. And I'd like to challenge that because while it was high after the Canterbury earthquakes for the five years or so pre-COVID it was actually 27 or 28 percent of GDP. Now 35 it's going to be 32 next year and there's no COVID and it's going to be 31 in 2027 when COVID we hope is a distant memory. So I question the Minister's claim that he is going to return spending to normal levels. He seems to have established it at disaster levels on a permanent basis several percentage points of GDP higher than what it is in good times normally. And I want to ask where some of that money is going because I've drilled down into some of the reports and this report that we're talking about. I look at healthcare expenses: pre-COVID 2019 $18 billion spent on healthcare in 2019. During the height of COVID $27.8 billion. Next year 2023 the year after we're debating it's going to be $28.8 billion. Now at what point do we stop blaming COVID and how do you increase healthcare expenditure by $10 billion and yet the waiting lists get longer the nurses and doctors get more dissatisfied. I wonder if the Minister doesn't think it may have been a mistake to try and restructure the healthcare system in the middle of a pandemic. I also want to ask the same question about education. Again pre-COVID it was about $14 billion a year. Then we get to 2023 up to $18.7 billion. So you know they've put up—well maths is not strong in this country thanks to education but they put up expenditure by 30 percent in a few years. That can't all be for buying laptops for kids in COVID. And yet somehow we have teachers on strike attendance rates dropping parents noticed that this month due to the strange kaleidoscope of holidays kids are barely going to school in April and yet somehow the Minister has managed to put another $4 billion in. So I ask the Minister of Finance: you say that you're returning spending to normal levels—I don't think that's true. I think normal levels are 28 29 percent of GDP you're getting it down to 31 in five years if you're lucky. And I wonder where all that extra money goes because a percent of GDP is a lot of money $10 billion extra on healthcare is a lot of money four billion extra on education is a lot of money. And I don't think New Zealanders mind paying taxes if they're getting value for money. But how do you show that you're getting value for money for these billions of additional taxes that you're taking from people? How can people be sure that it's money well spent when they look at health and education today?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): Well obviously the percentage numbers are the percentage numbers. I understand the point that the member's making that 31 is higher than 27—30 is higher than 27. My point would be that the long-run average for New Zealand is around 30 percent. I happen to believe that when we were down at those levels of 26 27 percent which we were at times under the previous National Government that is the reason why our health system found itself in trouble because we weren't putting adequate resources into some of those areas. So while I absolutely support and commit to reducing the level of Government spending down two things: firstly I'm not going to do it on a dime because that is the kind of austerity approach that has caused significant issues in other countries around the world. We are reducing it down in a responsible manner while still supporting the provision of the public services that New Zealanders need and deserve.Secondly I would say to the member that yeah if we were to get it down to the levels that I know the member prefers I believe that ultimately means that we can't run the kinds of public services that we need. So it's a fine balance. We've always got to be looking for ways in which we can be more effective more efficient with our spending. But the fact that we've increased health spending is a result of the fact that we are coming from way behind when it comes to where our health system was when we came into Government and you know the kinds of expenditure we put in place has allowed us to employ significantly more nurses has allowed us to employ significantly more doctors. It means that there are significantly more people getting mental health consultations in primary care—Andrew Bayly: Oh cut it out.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well they are Mr Bayly—getting more consultations in primary care. It's the reason why we can invest in paying teachers more when it comes to the education budget that the Minister has raised. So these things do cost money making sure that we provide the quality of services that New Zealanders need is important to me but we will strike a balance. We will continue to see the emergency COVID expenditure come out of our Budget and we will be closer to that long-run average of 30 percent of GDP. But I'm not going to do it in a way that has the hallmarks of austerity and all of the collateral social damage that causes.