Young Jonathan: Organised Crime and Anti-corruption Legislation Bill — Second ReadingText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeYoung Jonathan: Organised Crime and Anti-corruption Legislation Bill — Second Reading[Sitting date: 20 May 2015. Volume:705;Page:3523. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]JONATHAN YOUNG (National—New Plymouth): I have found this debate absolutely fascinating as we have looked at this issue. And who would have thought on a Wednesday night at 9.25 p.m. that people might find Parliament interesting? But I have found it very interesting as I have heard different views around facilitation payments and comments around bribery. I think that the previous speaker Mahesh Bindra has brought out a very important point when he talked about—what did you call them—“speed payments”. He said that in a number of countries around the world that is absolutely normal and quite acceptable. And I think what we are discovering is the fact that we live in a world of great cultural difference. What might be perceived to be wrong here is not so wrong in other places for lots of reasons.The very first time—to perhaps illustrate this in a benign way—that I went to the United States of America at the age of 17 to play rugby I went into a restaurant or a diner actually and ordered grits. A huge experience the first time I ever had McDonald’s in another restaurant. In those restaurants where people served you personally it was expected that you would show appreciation. So not only did you pay for the product but you showed some appreciation.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard): Order! I have never had grits so let us just say—JONATHAN YOUNG: Not you Mr Assistant Speaker.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard): That is right.JONATHAN YOUNG: I have to say that when people talk about tips coming to New Zealand I was the first to think: “No no no there is something wrong about that.” And we are just discovering that there are cultural differences of understanding around some of these measures. So when I am in New Plymouth in a restaurant and you get great service great attitude you get somebody who is doing their job very very professionally very very well and you give them a tip it feels good. They appreciate it. It is not a facilitation payment but it is something that was culturally difficult to accept a decade or so ago. But today it is becoming increasingly part of how we show appreciation.Iain Lees-Galloway: Yeah that’s because you keep wages so low.JONATHAN YOUNG: No it has got nothing to do with wages. It has got something to do with appreciation of service. I think that is a generous way to look at it.So I think that what we understand in this bill is that we have very strong principles here in New Zealand when it comes to public service or people giving a service for what would be the bona fide and acceptable level and means of payment. But in other countries it is slightly different. And so although we have in this bill something described as facilitation we also have measures in this bill regarding corruption here in New Zealand. We are trying in this bill to live in a big world where we participate. And what we have got to understand is that trade trade itself is a great facilitating process where people become—can I use this term—civilised toward one another. Because if I have something to sell I have got to convince you that you want to buy it. If I have got goods or products that come from this beautiful country I have to convince people in other countries that this is going to be of benefit. So we have to communicate. We have to perceive that I have value you have got value and together we actually start to dialogue and talk. So trade is a very good means by which we can facilitate increasing harmony in interaction between nations.Although I understand the purist point of view around this debate that has been defended by members on the other side I also understand the pragmatic view that actually has at the end of it a good result. What we need to understand is that the democracy that we have come to appreciate with all of its weights and balances its accountabilities its checks and balances—all of these aspects do take generations sometimes to actually become part of the ethos and the cultural thinking of people. So what are we to do? Because we find something in this bill offensive do we withdraw and say we are not going to participate in that nation? Well I know companies here in New Zealand that work in some of those nations of the world and they understand what we are talking about. If we were to say “No no. You ought not have a facilitation payment because that is a bribe and that is corrupt.” then what we would find is that we would have lost a relationship that can have an ongoing beneficial process not only of enhancing our economic strength and our trade in this country but also of the relationships that we form having some influence upon thinking in other countries. In that I guess brief analysis I want to support what this bill says around facilitation payments and I want to say that this bill is a good bill.I want to just touch on another area that the bill speaks on and this is around the amendment that people-trafficking offences apply to activities in New Zealand not just when victims are moved in or out of this country. If you would allow me let me just read just a couple of sentences from the bill: “Every person is liable to the penalty stated in subsection (2) who arranges organises or procures—(a) the entry of a person into or the exit of a person out of New Zealand or any other State—(i) for the purpose of exploiting or facilitating the exploitation of the person; or (ii) knowing that the entry or exit of the person involves 1 or more acts of coercion against the person 1 or more acts of deception of the person or both;”. It goes on to say in new section 98D(1)(b) that it applies not only in and out of the country but also within New Zealand.I just want at this point in time to put a shout-out to a group in New Plymouth that tomorrow evening is organising a public meeting around human trafficking and its abhorrence of it. The shout-out goes to Tu Tama Wahine in New Plymouth and also to Steph Lambert a friend of mine in her work as the executive director of Justice Acts New Zealand. They invited me to be at that seminar and to participate but I am unable to be there so I want to wish them the very very best for tomorrow evening.Just if I can I will talk very briefly in the next 2 minutes about what the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime says about trafficking. Based on data gathered out of 155 countries—and of course it is so difficult to get data around this subject because it is through such subterfuge that this happens—according to their most recent report the most common form of human trafficking is sexual exploitation; 79 percent of it is that. The victims of sexual exploitation are predominantly women and girls. Surprisingly in 30 percent of the countries that provided information on the gender of traffickers women make up the largest proportion of traffickers. In some parts of the world women trafficking women is the norm. So insidious is this that it affects even those of the same gender. The second-most common form of human trafficking is forced labour—18 percent although this may be a misrepresentation because forced labour is less frequently detected and reported than trafficking for sexual exploitation. This is the shocking figure: worldwide almost 20 percent of all trafficking victims are children. However in some parts of Africa and the Mekong region children are the majority—up to 100 percent in parts of West Africa. It is very very good and very important that this bill places this issue at the heart and centre of it and I commend this bill to the House.