Samuels Dover: Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
Samuels Dover: Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:634;Page:5843] 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS (Minister of State) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Chairman; thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution to this debate. In my time in this House I have certainly heard a lot of debates and I have heard a lot of reasons for those debates. I have enjoyed some of the quality aspects of debates and I have also enjoyed the cut and thrust of many debates. The last speaker just said the New Zealand public is not silly. I actually concur with that. I believe that the majority of people are aware of what is going on in this Parliament. Unfortunately we can say a lot of things in this Chamber—[ 
Interruption 
]; if members will stop and listen and learn—and a lot of members do but they are not accountable to anybody. There is no accountability outside. Those members can say anything and make a lot of allegations. 
I want to raise an issue. I am not a lawyer or an academic but I have been around a long while and I just say in terms of the perception of the New Zealand public that the question that has to be asked and answered is fundamental. In the last election did the National Party overspend or did it not? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: We didn’t. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: Taihoa taihoa. Did you overspend or did you not? That is the question. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: You are bringing the Chairman into the debate. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: That is exactly the issue. Did you overspend— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No no. I did not. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: I am addressing this to the National Party. Did the National Party overspend or did it not? That is the question that should be asked. Did the National Party overspend or did it not? Come on! Members can say anything in this Chamber. Did the National Party overspend or did it not? If it did not overspend then why did it pay the money back? Come on! Tell the truth. Address the facts. Did the National Party overspend or did it not? If it did not overspend then there would have been no need to pay back any money. It is very simple. If the National Party did not overspend then why did it pay back some money? This is what the public is asking. Why did the National Party pay it back? The simple reason is that it did overspend. That is the simple reason. These are the facts. The National Party did overspend. 
Then the question remains as to what extent it overspent. Yes it did not overspend as much as any other party but it still committed the offence. It did still overspend. Simply paying the money back does not exonerate the National Party from having committed the offence. It still committed the offence and the New Zealand is aware of and awake to all the shenanigans the excuses and the talk and rubbish about its taking the moral high ground. What a lot of bullshit! Absolute bullshit! 
Lindsay Tisch 
: Point of order Mr Chairman— 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: This is what the New Zealand public understands— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Both members will be seated. Point of order— 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Thank you. I was going to ask the member to withdraw and apologise. He has done so. I call the member to order. Please continue. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: What I am trying to reiterate is that ordinary New Zealanders out there know that the National Party overspent. Does simply paying back the money mean that all of a sudden it becomes holy? Those members opposite sling abuse at every other party and say they committed an offence but National did not. That is total humbug and the New Zealand public knows it. I will come back to the point again because this is really the crux of it. Did the National Party overspend or did it not? It did. It overspent. So there has been absolute hypocrisy in this Chamber on the part of the National Party. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Thank you. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: I come back to the point—a point that is very valid and basic to this argument. If the Labour Party overspent and the National Party overspent then the principle is exactly the same. The National Party is saying that it is whiter than white. It committed the offence.