Andersen GinnyHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour): Oh thank you very much Madam Chair. I'd just like to in terms of the purpose of the bill which is to deter people who were wanting to be in a gang—which you know we agree with that: we don't want people to be in gangs. We're just questioning whether the mechanisms or the actions that this legislation takes necessarily will achieve that. So we're quite interested to hear a bit back from the Minister.Because going back to those examples we gave—that it had happened in Queensland and also in New South Wales—what the report from the ombudsman in New South Wales and Queensland found is it drove criminal activity underground. So it was not as visible—you didn't see it as much in the streets—but what happened was the same level or potentially even greater than criminal activity happened in a more covert way. So you might not see it as much but it was still going on. So I'm interested to know: does the Minister have any proposal any methodology in which he plans to monitor how this legislation works? Would it be through the waste-water testing of methamphetamine that we're able to receive? Would it be like the number of convictions? I'm not sure that wouldn't really measure it potentially because it's all driven underground so how do you measure that which you can't see? So I'm interested to know what thoughts have gone in place.Because one of the difficulties is that there's been a really interesting programme that's gone on for a while that's been continued to be funded by this Government which is the Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities which provides I guess pro-social opportunities for young people who might get into a gang to not make that decision and to give them a better pathway.So one of the concerns that's raised in the regulatory impact statement is that this strategy of policing membership could potentially reinforce antisocial attitudes and mistrust making it harder for great programmes which have got quite a bit of money invested in it such as the Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities to be able to reach populations with social and economic interventions that would help that reoffending. It lists out some quite good risks. It actually risks that it may actually make it more difficult for people to exit gangs for those who are willing to disengage or desist from crime. It may also undermine those relationships that that programme—Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities—undermine trusted relationships within the community that have enabled whānau who have gang members in them to understand what services and opportunities are available to them and to be able to be in a space where they make a decision to leave the gang.I hark back again to the comments that Mr Mitchell made that he wants to make life so uncomfortable that people just want to leave the gang. The mechanisms you're utilising are dispersal notices and removing gang patches. But I haven't heard much discussion about the Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities programme—which your Government has continued to fund—and have you analysed the impact of these legislative changes on that long-term programme to prevent the next generation of people joining a gang? Also it notes that these legal changes that we're discussing today potentially undercut efforts to cultivate pro-social activity within gang communities. So making the environment right that people might actually want to leave the gang for those groups who have moved towards adopting such behaviours and are starting to make those changes.The regulatory impact statement also says that it makes it harder—this is really important—for whānau experiencing violence particularly family violence to seek help. We know that our statistics—I've done work on this—that harm to children and women in gang families is far higher. It's huge numbers of women and young people who are victims repeatedly of quite severe family violence.So I'm wanting to hear a response from the Minister as to whether he's fully comprehended the impact of this legislation on long-term programmes that have been in place to create pro-social environments where young people and communities can step away from organised crime. And how he thinks that his idea of just taking off a patch and giving them an email to disperse is actually more long-term beneficial for New Zealand safety than programmes that actually give young people and families positive and real opportunities to step away from what can be quite a harmful and dangerous lifestyle.