Pillay Lynne: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Pillay Lynne: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:626;Page:20886] 
11.  
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour—Waitakere) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What reports if any has he received on possible changes to the Government’s policy of 20 hours per week free early childhood education for 3 and 4-year-olds? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 As part of Budget 2004 the Government announced that all 3 and 4-year-old children in New Zealand would be entitled to 20 hours per week of free early childhood education. Immediately after that I saw a report pledging to abolish the policy. Then I saw another report retracting that pledge. Now I have another report that in fact confirms that Bill English wants to slash the free early childhood education policy. Now we know where some of the money for the tax cuts for National’s mates is coming from. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Has the Minister seen any report suggesting that early childhood centres should commit fraud or adopt dishonest practices—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry to interupt. There was an intervention during the asking of this question. I have been very tolerant with chatter throughout this question time but that was an intervention. Who was the member who made it? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The member will leave the Chamber please because that is normally what happens to those who intervene during the asking of questions. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith withdrew from the Chamber. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Has the Minister seen any reports suggesting that early childhood centres should commit fraud or adopt dishonest practices in order to increase the amount of Government funding they get? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Yes. I was there at the conference and I have seen a report—in fact an email—suggesting that early childhood centres should fraudulently fill out forms in order to claim for funding for qualified teachers even if they are not there. I have already had feedback from people in the sector that they do not intend to follow Bill English’s suggestion. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The Minister is lying. When he was there I did not say that and he should not mislead the House. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I seek leave to table a document that states: “I also want to say I was appalled at the advice given at the ECC conference that we falsify documents. The majority of us are honest professionals and we would never dream of doing such a thing.” 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is; the document will not be tabled. In dealing with the first point of order I ask whether the member has taken objection to what was said. 
Hon Bill English 
: Absolutely. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Does the member wish to speak to the point of order? 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: No not to that one. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister then please withdraw and apologise? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: How can I withdraw and apologise for saying I received a document that I did receive which was totally accurate? 
Hon Bill English 
: Speaking to the point of order I say that the Minister has made a direct claim that at a forum we were both at I got up and advised early childhood centre operators to operate in a fraudulent manner and to falsify Government returns. That is absolutely untrue. Those words were never said. In fact I said that operators were telling me that they were not always as detailed in filling out the forms as they should have been. I absolutely never said that and the Minister is lying. If he keeps on doing that it will bring the House into disorder. He is lying. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The matters raised by the member are matters for the debate. However the member in the course of saying that has accused the Minister of lying and that is unparliamentary. Will he please withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Bill English 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is very very clear what happened then. You asked the Minister of Education Trevor Mallard to withdraw and apologise. He then stood up and contested that ruling. He does not have the opportunity to do that under the Standing Orders. He had an opportunity to speak to the ruling and he did not take that opportunity. When asked to withdraw and apologise he then contested the ruling with you. You allowed that to happen and I am still waiting for him to withdraw and apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry. The member is contesting my ruling. The Minister did speak to it by saying he had that document which he said contained what he had said. I have ruled on the matter and I do not want there to be any more discussion on it. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is very rarely that I disagree with you and agree with Rodney Hide but I think you did order me to withdraw and apologise. I do withdraw and apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: You may do so if you wish although my understanding was different from that. But if everyone wants to withdraw and apologise that is fine and I would then ask the member to sit down 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Is it a new point of order? 
Rodney Hide 
: Yes. I take grave exception to your suggesting that I got it wrong. It was very clear—and I think other members will back me up—that you asked Trevor Mallard to withdraw and apologise. At that point he had to withdraw and apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: And he has. Would the member please sit down. The point has been taken. 
Rodney Hide 
: No my point is that you then attacked me. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the member please sit down. The matter has been resolved. 
Rodney Hide 
: Actually I would quite like you to apologise to me for your attack on my integrity. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: If the member does not sit down he is challenging the Chair. The matter has been sorted. Both members have apologised. I accepted the point you have made and I accepted the Minister’s apology and withdrawal. Can we now please move on. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister not realise that when families are choosing an early childhood centre they have to take into account the practicalities in terms of their lives—like whether the centre is convenient what it costs whether it has parking whether they like the teachers what its opening hours are and whether they match the jobs that the parents have—and that all those things matter a lot more to working families than his politically correct view of who should be allowed to run a childcare centre? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I have been involved in that area for quite a long time and I do know that people who currently have their kids in kindergarten will be appalled at the fees that would be imposed as a result of National’s policy. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Can the Minister describe the response of the delegates at the conference to which he refers whose members deliver 50 percent of early childhood education to the Government’s policy of 20 hours free early childhood education per week? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Mixed. 
Bernie Ogilvy 
: Will the Minister consider extending the Government’s policy of 20 hours free early childhood education per week for 3 and 4-year-olds to all early childhood education centres as per United Future’s education policy; if not why not? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: This Government will consider anything. A higher priority for me would be better quality and cheaper early childhood education for younger children. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister take the chance to repeat to the House his explanation to the conference as to why he wants to discriminate against 40000 children and their families depending on who the landlord is at the early childhood centre where he said to the conference that Labour just believed the State should do more of it? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: That is not what I said. I said that there is always a trade-off between the quality of service and profit and that this Government puts children first. 
Hon Bill English 
: Now that the Minister has said that there is a trade-off between quality and profit is he willing to go to the 40000 working mothers and fathers who send their children to privately owned centres this week and to say that they are making the wrong choice and are sending their children to low-quality profit-making centres and that he knows better and thinks that those parents should send their children to non-existent Government-owned and community-run centres? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The Government believes in having quality centres. That has always been our priority. I remind that member that the vast increases in funding that have gone in have gone more into private centres than other centres to help them to improve their quality—and they are very grateful for it. The member opposes quality and he votes against it every time it is offered.