Barker Rick: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — In Committee 
Barker Rick: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:673;Page:19792] 
Hon RICK BARKER (Labour) 
: 
 If I have this part correct—I am just flicking through it to make sure I am correct—this is the part that enables the disclosure of the amount of money that is owed to the Crown by people who have fines outstanding. This is another part of the legislation that will put pressure on fines defaulters to pay. When we examined what was happening with outstanding fines it became clear that there were a number of people who had significant assets who could pay their fines but refused to do so because there were no inherent problems with it. The amount of money that they owed to the Crown was effectively secret. There was no knowledge of it. This was quite different from the debts that they owed in the private sector. All the information about a person who had an outstanding student loan owed monies to the bank owed monies to a finance company or had however many other debts in the private sector would be available to any potential creditor but the amount of money the person had outstanding to the State was not. The unintended consequence of this was that people would pay off their private sector debts in preference to their debt to the Crown. Once a person had paid down their private sector debts it had a positive influence on their credit rating. A person’s credit rating could therefore be manipulated. 
I felt and others felt that there was an imbalance here in conjunction with the changes that we have made to disclose the number of outstanding fines to finance companies. Also part of it was the disclosure of the outstanding balances that people had in fines in general. When people were then looking at their debt if the amount of outstanding fines was disclosed as well as their other debts then this would change people’s attitude towards paying off their court fines. It seems in the current structure that there is no pressure to pay fines because it does not affect one’s credit rating. There is pressure to pay off one’s credit card bill because that affects one’s credit rating but there is no pressure to pay fines because it does not affect one’s credit worthiness. By disclosing this information we are now putting another pressure point on people who have outstanding fines. There are extra and improved rules for clamping vehicles the driver licence stop order demerit points for unpaid fines and the other rules are about the disclosure of credit. This again shows that Parliament is serious about people who do not pay their fines. I think the message must be very clear. 
The public has the impression that the system somehow does not care about debt to the State. All members of Parliament would have received letters or submissions from people saying “What about these outstanding fines? What are you doing about it?” how bad it is and so on. All of that is true but the problem has been one of our own creation. Parliament has created this situation because the amount of fines that people have outstanding is effectively hidden and undisclosed until it reaches the courts and comes out in public. We need to put pressure on people to make them pay. This is a third pressure point on people to make them pay. 
I think it also goes back to the point I made earlier about the person who wrote to me about his mother who was injured in a car accident because the system took no effective action against the driver who had outstanding fines. I think disclosure is a very good idea. A number of people have complained about it because they say there are privacy issues here. People say that their debts to the courts to the Crown should be private. Well I say no and I think this Parliament should also say no. If a person racks up a substantial amount of debt yet does nothing about it does not enter into an arrangement to pay with the Ministry of Justice takes no action and believes that they can leave their fines and do nothing about them and can do so with impunity then this legislation tells them to think again. 
When these debts are disclosed—and they can be $20000 $30000 or $40000—and people go to the bank to get a mortgage for a house they will suddenly find that they cannot get the money. If they try to get a loan from any other facility they will suddenly find they cannot get the money because of their debt to the Crown. I think this is a very good thing. In the past debt to the Crown was undisclosed and it had no impact on credit worthiness. I believe that if a person’s debt on a credit card can affect their credit worthiness then their debt to the Crown by way of fines should also have an equal impact on their credit worthiness. 
This is the issue that is at stake here. I see the Minister has an amendment to this bill to change some of the requirements in it and from looking at it I think we will support that. I report to the Committee that the Law and Order Committee had an extensive discussion with the Privacy Commissioner about these issues and the means of them and there were quite a number of concerns but the select committee was at pains to address all of the issues of the Privacy Commissioner. Issues were also raised by the Regulations Review Committee. It had quite a number of issues to raise with us and with the assistance of Ministry of Justice officials we managed to resolve all of those issues as well. 
Although there were some privacy issues in my opinion the amendments that have been made to the legislation have addressed those concerns and we now have in place a regime where if an individual thinks that their debts by way of traffic fines and speeding fines will go unnoticed the message from this Parliament is for them to think again. They should think again because it will affect their ability not only to carry a driver’s licence but also to get credit. I think this is a very good thing. I say to those people who rack up these extensive debts and do little about them that this Parliament cares about it. The State will use all the tools it can to get its money not because it wants to be owed this money; it is money from fines that people have incurred because of the way they drive. Parliament will make sure that they are held to account by every means possible. I think this is a very good message for this Parliament to send particularly to those people who in the main have the means to pay but simply choose not to. As I said in debate on the previous part when someone’s car was clamped the cheque was found immediately. They did not pay the fines because they did not feel any pressure. Well there will be pressure from now on. Thank you.