Lee MelissaMELISSA LEE (National): Thank you Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to rise to speak on this Part 4. I was unfortunately away in Auckland working and I missed out on the—Simon O'Connor: You just mentioned your own absence. MELISSA LEE: Yeah I know. I'm talking about myself so I think I'm actually OK. I missed out on the opportunity to speak on the amendments that I had presented. So I'd like to thank members who did in fact speak on them. Moving on I'd like to speak on the amendment to clause 174 in Part 4. Clause 174 talks about the Benefit of a person affected is reduced by amount of overseas pension". Basically what it is is that if someone is being paid an overseas pension and they are also entitled to the New Zealand pension the amount that they are being paid overseas is deducted from the amount that they are being paid in New Zealand. There is also subclause (2) where that first part does not apply and there are two categories. One is for the New Zealand superannuation payable overseas under section 26 of the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001 or the veterans pension payable overseas under section 182 of the Veterans' Support Act and I'd like to put forward an amendment in my name to add another clause. My amendment to clause 174 is to insert the following new paragraph (c) in subclause (2): "a person whose overseas pension is currently inaccessible from New Zealand." The reason I am doing this to amend the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill is to make it clear that those people—you know in New Zealand there are so many people who go overseas and work overseas and often they pay into a retirement savings plan or a pension plan. Sometimes they pay into a savings plan for which in some of the countries the language is actually different and it is called a pension plan. I have specifically written about this issue to the Minister in the chair Carmel Sepuloni since last year. For New Zealanders who are currently working in Korea for example they're teaching English at local schools but they are not paying into the Government superannuation fund because the pension that they call "pension" is called "pension" in that language. It's like a KiwiSaver. It's like a savings plan and there is no differentiation between a savings plan that they have to pay into and the actual Government-funded pension but it's all called pension. So New Zealand recognises those savings plans as a pension and they think that they're being paid as superannuation like a pension. I know it sounds a little bit confusing and what—Simon O'Connor: I think it's a conspiracy. MELISSA LEE: Thank you Mr O'Connor. It's not a conspiracy. What happens is that when New Zealanders after having worked there and having paid into a savings scheme for their retirement just like New Zealanders do in New Zealand into a KiwiSaver—that does not mean that they should be punished for making plans for their future. What happens is that when they leave Korea for example the savings that they have made in that country are not withdrawable. They cannot withdraw them to move to a New Zealand superannuation KiwiSaver type kind of a scheme and often New Zealanders who work in Korea are left thousands and thousands of dollars out of pocket. I have been contacted by a lot of these people who are working over there asking the New Zealand Government to go into negotiation with the Korean Government to work on this social security agreement. I know that the previous Government worked on that and that this Minister is currently working on that and I know that they have agreed on the details of the language. Having said that there is an issue specifically for these people who have saved into a savings scheme but cannot withdraw from it. Their Australian counterparts their Canadian counterparts and even their American counterparts can withdraw their money from their savings scheme to move it to their country and put it into their KiwiSaver type of retirement savings account but New Zealanders apparently can't. I would like to ask the Minister whether that has been included in the social security agreement with Korea to give effect to this so that when New Zealanders who are now in New Zealand who cannot access those funds because they are not allowed to because they are now living in New Zealand—[Bell rung] Madam Chair. The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Anne Tolley): I call Melissa Lee. MELISSA LEE: Thank you Madam Chair. I will repeat it. I ask whether those New Zealanders who have now returned to New Zealand and who cannot access the thousands of dollars in money that they have saved in their accounts in Korea can in fact find their way to bring that money over to New Zealand or in fact whether they would be missing out on their superannuation in New Zealand just because they've got a pension scheme—that word "pension" scheme—in Korea. The language the translation makes it very difficult for them to differentiate between a superannuation type of scheme and a savings plan for those people. Yesterday our newest member Dan Bidois spoke. It was an amazing maiden statement I have to say. Hon Member: That's right. MELISSA LEE: That's right. One of the things that he talked about was the fact that he's worked in so many different countries and that reminded me about this particular issue. One of the things that he said was that apart from working in developed countries he also worked in some parts of the world that often we don't actually go and work in—places like Kazakhstan—and that made me wonder what kind of situation Kazakhstan has in terms of the superannuation or pension schemes that a lot of Kiwis save into. I looked it up and I think in Kazakhstan there isn't a superannuation scheme that Kiwis who work in Kazakhstan can save into. I think they're exempt from it whereas in countries like Korea Kiwis who work in environments like in an education facility—whether it's private or Government they have to save into a savings scheme. I know it sounds really—when the employer says you need to put it into a savings scheme they have to say yes but the thing is it's not a Government-funded pension scheme. Some do; some don't. But even if they do they should be allowed to bring their funds back to New Zealand so that they are entitled to that money that they've put away. If they're not what I'm asking—and what I'm seeking in this amendment in my name—is to exclude those funds so that they are not disqualified from accessing New Zealand superannuation and so that their superannuation in New Zealand will not be deducted from the sum that they've got overseas as often that section 174 would have us believe. The other issue that I would like to talk about is that often—it might have been in an earlier clause but I think it's relevant to this part as well—when people who are on a benefit go overseas for more than a certain period of time their benefits are deducted. They can be overseas for only a certain period of time. If they are in fact going overseas to deal with their savings or superannuation type of situation like in the examples that I've given they would not be prejudiced in that cutting of benefit for example to make sure that they are just trying to get what is rightfully theirs. So I would like to put forward my amendment to clause 174 to insert a new paragraph (c) in this clause. I would like to urge the Minister to consider that this will in fact benefit a lot of New Zealanders who don't work only in New Zealand but all over the world. They may be caught in many different situations where they do the right thing by putting money away for their retirement just like with a KiwiSaver type of savings scheme and they're not able to access it. If they can't access it they should not be penalised and if they do try and access it they should be given the right to access it but if they can't they should not have to go with less money in their superannuation payments in New Zealand. It seems only fair and if the Minister thinks that there is a real reason why these New Zealanders who work overseas should be penalised I would like to hear of her reasoning behind it—why she doesn't think it's a good idea—and perhaps she could talk to some of these people who write to me or I could forward to her the emails and the letters that I have received from them."