Bayly Andrew; O'Connor GregANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): Thank you Mr Chair. I'm most grateful—most grateful. I want to talk about clauses 195 and 196 just to make sure that we are very careful about talking to the correct part Part 6. I think clause 195 really encapsulates how this Government regards these entities because clause 195 talks about—opening words: The Minister must … commission a review" and all clause 195 is what the Minister must do. It finishes off in subclause (4) by saying "Before commissioning the review required by this section the Minister must consult … other Ministers of the Crown (for example any whose portfolio responsibilities are affected by or relevant to the review) that the Minister thinks fit."Now we've heard all along that these water companies are owned by councils. We discussed this in the previous part under clause 166 and we talked about the rights of shareholders and we talked about the rights to a dividend the rights to participate in capital both of which are excluded specifically under clause 166. I think clause 195 further reinforces what I was saying earlier—that shareholders are genuinely entitled to be able to have a say in the future direction of their business. Dr Duncan Webb: Wrong part. What section?ANDREW BAYLY: In this case the shareholders if we were to understand and trust the comments from people like Dr Webb interjecting from the other side that councils own this because that's the proposition that's being put forward by the Government then they should be the one doing the review; not a Minister and not Ministers covering a whole lot of portfolios.So my first question to the Minister in the chair is: why is it that the territorial local authorities as the so-called owners—and I do not believe for a moment and no Minister or official has yet been able to stand up and have a proper conversation on—why should they not have the right to do this automatically and why shouldn't they be controlling that rather than a Minister of the Crown controlling it? I think that strikes to the core of what this is about: this is about centralisation and taking control and ownership away from councils—investing it actually in the Government.The second thing is clause 196 "Comprehensive review of water services legislation". As the Minister in the chair noted before there will be a five-yearly review after the establishment of this entity. We all understand when it's going to take place in 2024. Clause 196 requires that on the ninth anniversary—it ends on the 10th anniversary of the establishment date; i.e. the same day—there will be a comprehensive review of the water services legislation. Now I cannot understand the logic of this. If you do a formal review even if it is a Minister doing it rather than the councils—and I'm very keen to understand whether councils can initiate other reviews—even if the Minister does the five-year review why would it be that you specify in a piece of legislation that you do it five years after that review? What is the logic of that? If you a review and decide that you need to make a change why wouldn't you make it flexible in the bill along with using words such as "soon as practicable thereafter" of clause 195 that you implement legislative change? What is so compelling in the logic that you do a review and then you wait another five years—and I can see members on the other side nodding going "Yes that makes sense."This is a piece of legislation that's poorly drafted. There should be flexibility about when this takes place. It should be flexible—again like clause 195 the councils should have the right to require that the legislations change because if they really did have control then they would be able to require this of the Minister rather than Labour thinking that the Minister should be telling everyone what to do; the council if they really were the owners would be telling the Minister what they want.CHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Just before I take the next call can I just remind members that different members saying the same thing does not constitute new material—just as an observation."