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Rurawhe AdrianTUESDAY 13 SEPTEMBER 2022The Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.KARAKIA/PRAYERSSPEAKER: Korōria hariruia ki a Ihoa o ngā mano ka tuku whakamoemiti atu mātou mō ngā manaakitanga kua waihotia mai ki runga i a mātou. Ka waiho i ō mātou pānga whaiaro katoa ki te taha ka tono manaakitanga mātou mō te Kīngi Tiare III me te kāhui ariki. Kei te inoi atu mātou mō te ārahitanga i roto i ō mātou whakaaroarohanga kia mōhio ai kia whakaiti ai tā mātou whakahaere i ngā take o te Whare nei mō te oranga te maungārongo me te aroha o Aotearoa. Āmene. [Glory hallelujah to Jehovah of the thousands we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests we seek that your blessings be upon King Charles III and the royal family. We pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility for the welfare peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]
VoteCHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): Members the time for this debate has now expired. A party vote was called for on the question That the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 2022/23 stand part of the Schedules.Ayes 75New Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.Noes 45New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati Māori 2.Votes agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That clauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 be agreed to.Ayes 75New Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.Noes 45New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati Māori 2.Clauses 1 to 10 and Schedules 1 to 5 agreed to.Bill to be reported without amendment.
Estimates Debate — Education
11. Question No. 11—Local GovernmentSIMON WATTS (National—North Shore) to the Minister of Local GovernmentQuestion No. 11—Local Government11. SIMON WATTS (National—North Shore) to the Minister of Local Government: Does she agree with Gore District Council Mayor Tracy Hicks who said The Government appears impermeable to seriously entertaining an alternative model for the Three Waters reform" and does she believe she has adequately addressed the concerns of local government during Three Waters reform?Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government): No and yes.Simon Watts: Is she concerned that so many councils have called for stormwater infrastructure to be exempted or delayed from integration into her mega entities and what does it say about her reforms that years in there isn't even consensus over if it's three waters or two waters?Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: We established a stormwater technical working group with experts and representation from the sector to deliberate over these very important issues and we have taken on board their recommendations.Simon Watts: Does she agree with Hayden Turoa who said that "Central Government continue to misunderstand opting for models that pitch community and hapū against each other" and is she concerned that hapū councils and communities feel the Government is turning them against each other?Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: I'm mindful that there are a range of views about the effectiveness of councils working with hapū and mana whenua in this area. Those range of views are taken on board and adopted within the governance model to ensure that councils and mana whenua can work constructively together around Te Mana o te Wai aspirations. That will be an overall improvement to the current system.Simon Watts: Is she concerned that many mayors including Timaru mayor Nigel Bowen have said that instead of helping their communities these reforms will actively and I quote "hinder them" and why are so many councils still saying they're better off without her reforms?Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Again there are a range of views amongst mayors and leaders at councils. Take for example the Mayor of Ruapehu Don Cameron who said "Reform is essential where our debt attributed to three waters will be paid back by the [water services entity] and our further work will be properly prioritised and carried out in a timely manner [with no] cost to council"—and that's in favour of the reform.Simon Watts: Can she name a single council previously opposed to Labour's three waters proposal that supports it because of the changes she's made and if not what does that say about those changes?Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: I certainly don't want to misrepresent the views of councils who have unilaterally supported the need and case for change. How that's achieved—yes there are differing views. However throughout this whole process we have taken on board through a range of mechanisms and engagement those views from councils and adopted them within the governance representation aspects of the changes being forwarded."
10. Question No. 10—Education (School Operations)MARJA LUBECK (Labour) to the Associate Minister of Education (School Operations)Question No. 10—Education (School Operations)10. MARJA LUBECK (Labour) to the Associate Minister of Education (School Operations): How is the Government supporting young Kiwis to lift their literacy and reading skills?Hon JAN TINETTI (Associate Minister of Education (School Operations)): The investment the Government has made into evidence-based and community-led projects is delivering positive results evidenced in the latest evaluation from the Reading Together programme that supports parents and whānau to encourage strong literacy at home. An example in the Samoan community evaluation showed a positive change in reading habits for families with almost 90 percent of parents feeling more confident in helping their children learn to read. Marja Lubeck: What are other examples of community-led literacy programmes that are delivering results?Hon JAN TINETTI: Taonga mō ngā Tamariki is an intergenerational whānau reading and literacy programme for tamariki who have whānau in the care and management of Corrections. The programme has a positive impact by providing books and resources for children and parents with over 90 percent of participants reporting enhanced knowledge and skills to constructively support their children's enjoyment of reading.Marja Lubeck: What work is under way to support kids starting out at school to get the best start to early literacy learning?Hon JAN TINETTI: Through our Better Start Literacy Approach all new entrant and year 1 teachers have access to training in an integrated approach to developing critical writing and reading skills in the first year of learning. This approach is steeped in the best of international and domestic research developed by the University of Canterbury over the last 10 years.Marja Lubeck: How do these programmes fit into the Government's wider strategy for literacy?Hon JAN TINETTI: We have released our literacy strategy which is ensuring solutions are customised to our kids' needs rather than a one-size-fits-all cookie cutter approach. We're ensuring assessment is fit for purpose so that kids are assessed as individuals and supports are tailored to the learner as well as providing clarity for teachers about what they need to teach and when.Marja Lubeck: How has research and evidence driven the Government's strategy to lift literacy achievement for Kiwi kids?Hon JAN TINETTI: Our strategy is evidence based and draws on domestic and international best practice and expert advice. It also caters to the New Zealand context and ensures that we place the learner at the centre and leave nothing to chance.
9. Question No. 9—JusticeHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of JusticeQuestion No. 9—Justice9. Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by all her statements and actions on youth justice?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice): Yes in the context in which they were made.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Why did she dispute that there has been a 500 percent increase in ram raids since 2018 on radio yesterday?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Because I am advised that the most recent full years of data available is that in 2018 there were 84 incidents and in 2021 there were 303 incidents—an increase of 260 percent in that period. Regardless of the number I think we can all collectively agree that an increase in this particular type of youth offending is dissatisfactory to all of us.Hon Paul Goldsmith: What does she say to the Hamilton mum who believes kids including her son are being exploited by organised criminals: It's insane to think about it but look at what's going on … 14-year-olds ram-raiding absolutely giving no Fs about anyone."?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: To that mother I would say that we collectively are all concerned about the increase in activity in youth ram-raid offending in particular. While over the past 10 years we have seen a steady decrease in youth offending we have seen a particular spike in a couple of areas—both Auckland—and in particular types of crime like youth ram raids. So to that mother I would say "This Government takes these things seriously." We have seen since 2017 268 prosecutions for a range of ram-raid - related offending and 324 youth referrals. We will continue to ensure that the policy settings are correct to combat these types of rises.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does she think the youth justice system is sending a clear and effective message about community concerns over youth crime when just sentences to youth justice residences declined by 50 percent while ram raids have increased over 500 percent?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: To the statement that I just said prior overall there has been a decrease in youth criminal offending over the past 10 years. We've seen that nationwide and what we have seen is a sharp increase in this particular offending which is unsatisfactory. As I just stated there have been 768 prosecutions for a range of ram-raid - related offences and 324 youth referrals over the past couple of years. These are serious offences and we can see that the police and indeed the other parts of the system are taking this seriously.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Does the Government believe serious and persistent youth offenders currently face sufficient consequences for the damage they inflict on victims and their communities?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: I think there are a range of issues that we as a Government need to consider in terms of ensuring that the policy settings are ongoing and constantly fit for purpose. On this side of the House this is something that we are working very I guess closely on and expect to have some announcements in the next period."
7. Question No. 7—ConservationRACHEL BROOKING (Labour) to the Minister of ConservationQuestion No. 7—Conservation7. RACHEL BROOKING (Labour) to the Minister of Conservation: What is the significance of Conservation Week 2022 and what does it aim to achieve?Hon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Conservation): Meitaki e te Vaa Tuatua. Next week we mark Conservation Week which is our opportunity each year to increase awareness of and connection with our natural world. Every year thousands of New Zealanders roll up their sleeves and get involved in conservation activities at home or attend one of the many events across the country. Engaging with nature benefits our environment and also ourselves: Ka ora te whenua ka ora te tangata. When the land is well the people are well; and when Papatūānuku thrives we all thrive. This Conservation Week I encourage all members of this House to get out into our backyard roll up their sleeves and support.Rachel Brooking: What is this year's theme for Conservation Week?Hon POTO WILLIAMS: This year marks 53 years of Conservation Week with the theme Take a moment to act for nature—e mahi mō te taiao". The campaign asks people to make a connection between their wellbeing and our environment as simple acts for nature can be beneficial to both themselves and the environment. This was something we all realised during COVID-19 lockdowns and this campaign aims to ensure we don't forget that special connection.Rachel Brooking: What events can people participate in to mark Conservation Week?Hon POTO WILLIAMS: There are a number of things people can do to celebrate Conservation Week such as organise a community rubbish clean-up volunteer for a conservation-based organisation or do something at home like plant a native tree or get involved in a local trapping programme. I will be celebrating this week by visiting the Wildlife Hospital in Dunedin checking out the Isaac Conservation and Wildlife Trust captive breeding programme in Christchurch as well as spending a day with our conservation team in the Abel Tasman.Rachel Brooking: What have been some of the significant conservation achievements in recent years?Hon POTO WILLIAMS: This Government has prioritised conservation as part of our build back better agenda across the country. This has seen us make good progress in protecting our environment and endangered species. The member will be pleased to know that as part of Jobs for Nature there has been 51 employment opportunities created as part of the Tucker Beach reserve project in Queenstown resulting in over 10000 riparian plants being planted 18 hectares of weed control and two kilometres of new fencing being constructed as of June 2022.Rachel Brooking: What recent progress has been made to protect endangered birds such as kākāpō?Hon POTO WILLIAMS: We are making strong progress to restore the population of kākāpō with numbers increasing by nearly a third from 197 to 252. As the second-biggest breeding season on record this is the start of a new era for kākāpō conservation. However we cannot take our eye off the ball. We must continue the important work to protect this critically endangered taonga."
5. Question No. 5—Energy and ResourcesARENA WILLIAMS (Labour—Manurewa) to the Minister of Energy and ResourcesQuestion No. 5—Energy and Resources5. ARENA WILLIAMS (Labour—Manurewa) to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What action is the Government taking to support access to cheaper cleaner energy for people in public and Māori housing?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources): The Government is rolling out 16 small-scale solar projects across New Zealand to support more households to access clean affordable locally generated electricity. Through the third round of the Māori Housing Renewable Energy Fund 150 Māori households will directly benefit from improved energy affordability. Even more households will benefit through energy sharing.Arena Williams: How will this help recipients reduce their energy bills?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: It will vary based on the household but I'm advised recipients should get estimated savings annually of between $700 and $850 per household. Projects from earlier funding rounds are reporting that installing equipment like solar panels and household batteries has made a huge difference to whānau struggling with their power bills. Some have had their power bills drop by 30 to 50 percent including some recipients saving over $1000 a year.Arena Williams: Why has the Government selected these 16 solar projects for funding?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: Round three focuses on projects that are more innovative or in areas not well represented by projects that have already received funding in earlier rounds. There is approximately $3 million available for smaller-scale projects that should support at least four houses with the remaining $5 million for larger-scale projects. This reflects the growing ambition that Māori organisations have for the role of renewable energy in their communities. Successful applications for the larger-scale projects are expected to be announced in early 2023.Arena Williams: Where are these projects happening?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: These projects are spread across the country reaching communities that don't always see investment. There are seven projects in Northland three in Waikato one in Auckland one in the Bay of Plenty one in the Hawke's Bay one in Whanganui one in Masterton and one in Motueka.Arena Williams: Can the Minister give an example of how communities are benefiting from this funding?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS: This funding round committed $400000 to Mangatawa Papamoa Blocks Incorporation for a solar array and community battery for the Bay of Plenty. This solar smart grid across 35 homes in a papakāinga will feed into a community battery. This will enable energy sharing across houses improving the community's resilience and independence.
3. Question No. 3—FinanceHELEN WHITE (Labour) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 3—Finance3. HELEN WHITE (Labour) to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): The ANZ New Zealand Business Outlook for August was released yesterday and it showed that business confidence had recovered somewhat while firms' own confidence in their activity had also risen. Nevertheless sentiment does remain subdued amidst what are very challenging conditions for businesses as they deal with high inflation and ongoing supply constraints. While economic growth is forecast to slow this year the resilience of the New Zealand economy and our strong fiscal position means that we are in a good position to support New Zealanders to deal with these challenges.Helen White: What did the report have to say about business activity and its impact on the economy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: General activity indicators including hiring and investment intentions also lifted which ANZ noted was good news. ANZ said there was a mood lift that was evident among manufacturers agriculture and services firms.Helen White: What other reports has he seen on business investing in the economy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: The overseas merchandise trade figures show businesses are investing to improve the country's productivity and support our recovery. Last month Statistics New Zealand reported that imports of mechanical machinery and equipment rose 19 percent to $1 billion in July. On an annual basis imports of mechanical machinery and equipment rose 26 percent to $11 billion.Helen White: What other reports has he seen on the economy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: CoreLogic's House Price Index which measures changes to property values declined 1.8 percent in August compared with a 0.9 percent drop in July. For the quarter prices fell by 3.5 percent. CoreLogic is expecting further declines in prices but they noted that credit arrears remain low as a strong labour market with low unemployment is supporting households with their mortgage repayments.Helen White: What reports has he seen on the international context for the economy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: New Zealand is not alone in feeling the effects of global inflation trends. The EU has reported that inflation rose 9.1 percent in August compared with 8.9 percent in the previous month. In the UK there are forecasts for inflation that range between 13 and 22 percent for the year. Nevertheless in New Zealand—Hon Paul Goldsmith: Are we short of gas?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well that member's not. Nevertheless in New Zealand wages are outstripping inflation and most economists are forecasting that inflation has now peaked although it will remain elevated for some time at levels above what we have recently experienced. That is why the Government continues to support New Zealanders including low and middle income New Zealanders through the cost of living payment that we'll pay out for the second time today.
Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill — Second Reading
SpeechANAHILA KANONGATA'A-SUISUIKI (Labour): Kia ora e te Mana Whakawā. It's always an honour and a privilege to make a contribution in this House. Today it's the second reading of the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill and I'll make a short contribution.I want to acknowledge all the submitters. I want to acknowledge the Minister and his leadership in shepherding this important bill—which is part of what he intends to deliver in his portfolio as the Minister for Children. I want to acknowledge the officials and the select committee.We've heard the Minister clarify what the bill does but I will focus on two matters that the bill does. So the bill amends the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 and it partially repeals the child provisions so that subsequent provisions will only apply in respect to parents relating to murder manslaughter or infanticide of a child in their care.What happens now is that if a mother is pregnant it has to be reported to the State and the Family Court has mandatory oversight if the children in the care of the parent have been permanently removed by the State. So what this bill does is that it only will apply for parents who have been convicted of murder manslaughter or infanticide of a child in their care. A Family Court conference is held to make decisions about the care of the unborn child before the child is born if it's reported in the subsequent provisions.What happens? Currently the Family Court conference allows for family deliberations to be private but it doesn't actually clarify that Oranga Tamariki must not be present. What clause 6A does is it actually says that the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki or its representatives must not be party to private family deliberations at Family Court conferences unless it's invited. Lastly I want to acknowledge the Oranga Tamariki Māori rōpū Te Awateatea Tāmakimakaurau [the Māori Rōpū Equal Employment Opportunities Site Management Teams within Oranga Tamariki Te Awateatea Auckland] especially the leadership of Danny Thompson Maureen Rapata-Kemp and Foulis Foster because for years they have been championing the fact that the Māori engagement and decision making for mokopuna who are reported to Child Youth and Family—Oranga Tamariki now—must involve family deliberations without the State.That's what this bill will do; it will enable family deliberations at Family Court conferences not to have Oranga Tamariki or its representatives present during those deliberations. And with those words I commend the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill to the House.
Belich CamillaCAMILLA BELICH (Labour): Thank you Mr Speaker. I too have waited some weeks to make a contribution on this Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill. I have seen some previous speakers and listened to their speeches and there was—in some of the speeches—a bit of a lack of enthusiasm about this particular bill. But that is not a sentiment I share. I'm incredibly enthusiastic about this Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill for the main reasons that it fundamentally supports the notion of separation of powers and also enhances judicial independence.The main issue that I wanted to cover in my short contribution today is really that currently we have the Cabinet fees framework administered on behalf of the executive paying essentially the salaries of people who are part of the judiciary working on tribunals. Now a lot of the members of the public won't necessarily know the difference between a tribunal and a court. To them they are impartial decision makers and they have integrity and it's important that that's upheld. So the move then to make the payment of salaries of some of these tribunals more independent is incredibly important. So I support the move to make the independent Remuneration Authority the one who is charged with paying these particular salaries.Two particular examples that I want to mention quickly. I think it's particularly important for immigration where the Minister can hear appeals at the immigration tribunal—I think it's particularly important to make sure that that is seen as independent. The second example is the Human Rights Review Tribunal which of course can make declarations of inconsistency with pieces of legislation. It's also particularly important that that tribunal—which also shares that power now with the courts following another new piece of legislation that this Labour Government has brought before the House—are seen to be and are independent. So I commend this bill to the House.Motion agreed to.Bill read a second time.
SpeechSIMON O'CONNOR (National—Tāmaki): Look there are some good points and bad points. I mean first and foremost I actually agree with Dr Emily Henderson and Willow-Jean Prime that we've waited a very long time to give our little orations on this bill so it's nice to be here. But I do have to take umbrage with this whole demise of democracy". I mean the first comment that she uttered just dripped with political bias—I mean the continuum of political instability is not a line between communism and fascism but it's a horseshoe. In other words basically the fascists are the communists and the communists are the fascists—they're all the same and democracy sits in the middle. I mean it's just nutcase stuff. So if we're going to be talking about this Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill supporting democracy—which it does—we could do without comments like that. But to add to the point again under the notion of what this bill seeks to do to enhance our democracy there is a dripping irony today that we've had to sit through a Labour-sponsored bill around plain language which is setting to define what New Zealanders are allowed to or not to say and literally in the last hour I'm picking up news that Local Government New Zealand in its wisdom has decided it will decide along with its activist groups which candidates are worthy of being elected or not. So for a Government to stand here and trumpet its bill and how it's protecting democracy yet on the other hand wanting to dictate to Kiwis what words they can use and who rightfully can stand for democratic election I find is a word I'm not allowed to use in the House.DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr O'Connor we will dictate at the moment that you will return to the bill please.SIMON O'CONNOR: Yeah probably—probably. So returning to the bill it's pretty—DEPUTY SPEAKER: No no you will Mr O'Connor.SIMON O'CONNOR: Oh very good. We like to follow instruction in this democratic world. Remun—remuneration—I don't know why I can never get my tongue around that. Basically it's moving the authority from Cabinet to an independent authority. Do you know what? That's a really good thing and despite having waited weeks to give this speech I don't feel there's much more I need to say."
SpeechDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour—Whangārei): E te Māngai o te Whare tēnā koe. I also rise to take a brief call. My friend flatmate and neighbouring electorate MP in Northland has outlined the tribunals. This is a bill which does a small but important job. It takes a number of tribunals from the Disputes Tribunal to the Human Rights Tribunal and it takes them out from under the Cabinet fees framework and puts them into the independent Remuneration Authority. It sounds not much but it is in fact the defence of one of the pillars of democracy which is the independence of our judiciary. It is incredibly important that our judiciary remain free from political influence. And I say that to all of those who occasionally ring me and ask why it is that our Government has not pushed for certain penalties when judges bring them down. The reason is if we are able to influence the judiciary then that way lies the demise of democracy and we see all over the world today the situation where democracy is being eroded because it is too little regarded too much taken for granted and that is no way to maintain something.So for that reason it is a small but mighty step to preserve the independence of the judiciary to preserve our democracy. I commend the fierce independence of the judiciary in this country. If you have worked outside this country if you have worked with academics and lawyers from overseas countries you will know that is not always the case and you will have heard stories from them that are frankly frightening about what happens when a judiciary is in fact subject to political influence political insecurity or economic insecurity. That way lies fascism; that way lies madness. I commend this bill to the House.
Prime Willow-JeanREMUNERATION AUTHORITY LEGISLATION BILLSecond ReadingDebate resumed from 25 August.WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour—Northland): Tēnā koe e te Māngai o te Whare. Can I start by thanking you for the opportunity to finally take a call on this Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill at its second reading. It has been on the agenda for several House sitting days now and my name is there and it's getting closer and closer to me and today just as I'm about to depart on a taxi to get back to the Far North it's finally my chance to make this brief call. I'll make it brief because my friendly neighbour flatmate and neighbouring electorate member here Dr Emily Henderson is after me and she has a flight at the same time.So we are here to debate the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill which transfers responsibility for determining remuneration of certain judicial bodies and statutory officers to the Remuneration Authority to recognise the judicial nature of those positions. Currently those decisions are made by the Cabinet fees framework. This bill proposes to transfer those to the Remuneration Authority. The bodies and offices to which this bill is related to are the Disputes Tribunal referees community magistrates of the District Court chairperson and deputy chairpersons of the Human Rights Review Tribunal deputy chairpersons and members of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court and tenancy tribunal adjudicators. This piece of legislation is important because we believe it will enhance public confidence in our judicial system by making changes relating to the responsibility to determine remuneration of some of our statutory and judicial officers and transferring that to an independent body which is the Remuneration Authority thereby enhancing public confidence in the integrity of the independence of these tribunals who make decisions that do affect ordinary New Zealanders greatly. And so with that I just want to acknowledge the Justice Committee. I don't want to say they didn't have a huge amount of work but I do note that they only had four submissions only two of which were actually in scope—two were ruled out of scope. They were both supportive of the legislation and the select committee were unanimous in recommending this bill back to the House unchanged. So I want to thank all of those involved including the officials and I commend this bill to the House.
Salesa JennyHouse resumed.CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): The committee has considered the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move That the report be adopted.Motion agreed to.Report adopted.
Swarbrick Chlöe; Hipkins ChrisCHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): To the point as raised in my initial question to the Minister around the hardship faced by students we know that this is disproportionately being felt by those who have historically been structurally marginalised. But we also know based on this data and recent data collated by Dr Sereana Naepi from the University of Auckland that this is concentrated particularly with postgraduate students. To that effect I have been hearing from a number of constituents in Auckland Central but also tertiary students across the country who have been speaking to the diverse approaches that universities and even faculties within universities are taking to the issue of stipends. We are seeing there is massive discrepancy in the value being paid out to students. I'm wondering if the Minister's done any work on this particularly given that hardship and that barrier to access study and therefore the research that our country is powered by or if not if he would encourage the Education and Workforce Committee to do more work in this space.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): In answer to the first question no it's not a topic that I have done a lot of work on. In answer to the second question of course I am not going to direct select committees but it is an area that I think is worthy of further investigation.
Swarbrick Chlöe; Hipkins ChrisCHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): Turning then to the issue of student debt we have in the Estimates on page 14 of the Education and Workforce Committee's report but in page 83 of the broader Estimates document for anybody following alone at home notation of the fact that there is $1.8 billion in overdue student debt; $1.7 billion of that is owed by people now overseas. The Minister will be aware as I addressed in the select committee hearing that these were also questions I put to the Minister of Revenue and I understand that there had been some work on it. As noted in the Estimates document itself it states that the Minister said work was done on this in 2018 but had not looked into the issue in the past 18 months. So to that effect knowing that debt accumulates interest for those students particularly past students who are now overseas and given that there hasn't been much work done on it in the past 18 months may I ask the Minister if he intends to move ahead with any work in the future or at present?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I can certainly assure the member that we are very keen to get those students who are overseas or former students who are overseas with student loan debt repaying their student loans. And so we will continue to work to try and improve our data in that regard improve our contacts with those people in that regard. The IRD do a great job I think of leading that process. It's not to say that it's perfect. In terms of any future policy change around that as I've indicated to the member before it's not something that I have been actively considering.
Hipkins ChrisSIMON O'CONNOR (National—Tāmaki): Two statements and a question but they are sort of all questions too. I've been going around my own electorate which is mightier than Kaipara ki Mahurangi—it's known as Tāmaki; come and visit some time. But talking to the various schools and principals one point of feedback is certainly around growth and how to keep anticipating. That's always a challenge as you'll understand Minister—to anticipate the growth and find the funds for it. But certainly in our electorate we're seeing greater intensification. A number of the schools are looking to expand their classrooms but I will say they're also grateful for the buildings that have been done. They're also indicating questions around how much time can teachers be given to learn elements of the new curriculum including the likes of the New Zealand history curriculum. While they welcome that they're finding a little bit of a tension.The question though is around—and I'm not fully up to speed on this. Several principals have talked to me about the regulations or guidelines around restraint of students and saying that this has been waited on for almost two years now. I could be wrong on the specifics of that and that's not to prejudice my principals and teachers but they feel at the moment quite exposed without those guidelines and there's a growing frustration that these are not yet present to allow the schools to appropriately deal with their students. So I'm just wondering if the Minister has any information obviously to give to the committee but in turn that we could share to our principals around when we might anticipate these guidelines around restraint.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Thank you Madam Chair. I'm happy to follow up for the member and get some further information for the member and get some further information on when the guidance around the guidelines will be updated. It has been a really contentious issue. The guidelines were the ones developed by Hekia Parata with the support of the then Opposition because I think we agreed that seclusion and the use of the restraint in a lot of contexts was wrong. However having said that I know that there's a sense amongst some in the profession that the pendulum has swung too far the other way to the point where reasonable steps that they might have previously taken are now ones that they are cautious in doing so. So further guidance—and I haven't looked at it for a wee while so I don't have that—was being developed by the Ministry of Education. I'm happy to follow up and get back to the member.
Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Kaipara ki Mahurangi): Thank you very much Madam Chair. I appreciate this is not a question on notice to the Minister so I'll understand if the specific nature of it means that he's not able to answer. But in relation to the mighty electorate of Kaipara ki Mahurangi—north-west Auckland and north and a bit of the west actually—the Minister may be aware and in fact I think he and his office have engaged in correspondence and certainly the Ministry of Education has about the need for an additional high school in the area. It is a fast-growing population which is seeing not only most obviously the growth of residential housing but also early childhood education centres and primary schools which include intermediate schools in that area. These are all growing. New institutions as in centres and schools are being added and classrooms are being added to existing ones. So the obvious question is that as those children get older and inevitably need schooling of a secondary nature what is being provided for them in the area? I understand that between—I think I am correct in saying—2023 and 2026 it's intended to establish such a school but I wonder if the Minister can give any updates even if it's merely in relation to acquiring land as opposed to subsequent steps that would be needed to achieve that for the benefit of the area. Thank you.
Stanford Erica; Hipkins ChrisERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): I want to go back to the learning support coordinators that we were talking about earlier. It was the Government's promise to introduce these and I understand that the Minister just said that it will depend on future Budget bids so we will have to wait and see if that happens. What I want to know from the Minister is: how will they be rolled out differently to when they've been rolled out in the past? The reason I ask is because some very needy schools have not got access to learning support coordinators—I can see the Minister nodding. It was rolled out in a very higgledy-piggledy way. No one quite knows how it was done. Can the Minister explain to this House how it's going to be done differently this time to make sure that those schools who have the most need for those learning support coordinators are going to get access to them?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I disagree with the phrase higgledy-piggledy" in terms of how they were rolled out last time. They were rolled out last time based on the Ministry of Education's assessment around which schools were most prepared to roll out the new learning support model. That has led to some inequity. So we will use a different approach to rolling it out if we extend the roles further in the near future and of course that will be part of Budget decision-making. So decisions haven't been taken on that."
Stanford Erica; Hipkins ChrisERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): The Reading Recovery contract is up for renewal. We know that it runs out early next year and will be very soon up for renewal. So when is the Cabinet going to make a decision on whether or not they continue with the Reading Recovery programme given that the contract needs to be renewed?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I can't add any more to the fact that we haven't made decisions on that yet.
Stanford Erica; Hipkins ChrisERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): What does that mean—the most effective way possible"?In 2018 the Government had a literacy report done by Massey University which told them everything that they needed to know. Some parts of it have been implemented; I understand that. But the evidence very clearly shows that a structured literacy approach is in big contrast to the three-cueing system. So if we're going to be introducing structured literacy—which is what it sounded like from what the Minister said to Jack Tame—how can it be that we then continue with a reading recovery programme which is in direct contradiction to that which teaches children to look at the picture and use context to work out words; those things are in direct contradiction to each other.So the question is with this three-tier intervention what is going to be? The Minister must have some idea. Is it going to be based on the latest science? And if that's the case well then that would suggest what Jan Tinetti has been saying which is that the latest science—I go back to my quote that she said "I haven't seen any evidence to suggest anything different than a structured literacy approach." Does that mean that we're going to be getting rid of reading recovery as it stands today and replacing it with a three-tier intervention that is based around a more structured literacy approach?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): As I indicated to the member the Cabinet—the Government—has not made decisions on that yet. But I would say to her that I generally try and review a balance of research in these areas. I never take one single research report or one single evaluation report as a gospel."
Stanford Erica; Hipkins ChrisERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): I want to ask—Chris Penk: Bonus round.ERICA STANFORD: —the Minister—great! No I wanted to ask the Minister about Reading Recovery. As we know at the moment Reading Recovery is a three-tier intervention that's based on the whole-word approach the three-cueing system. So it's very much that sort of system. Jan Tinetti in her interview with Jack Tame said that the evidence suggests that we use a more structured approach to teaching literacy like structured literacy and then went on to say that we should rename Reading Recovery and teach it in a way that is more of a structured literacy approach. So the question to the Minister is: Reading Recovery is tied in with Marie Clay and her way of doing things which is the three-cueing model. It was odd for the Associate Minister to say that Well if we just get rid of it we won't have a three-tier intervention." Is it your intention Minister to replace Reading Recovery with something that is similar—a three-tier intervention that has got a more structured literacy approach that has a different name that is very different than the three-cueing system as she intimated? And if that is the case are we going to get rid of the three-cueing system in New Zealand like they have done around the world?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I don't want to be dismissive but the Government hasn't made decisions about that at this point. Will there continue to be a more intensive level of intervention? Yes there absolutely will be. Are we looking to make sure that we're doing that in the most effective way possible? Yes we are."
Hipkins ChrisCHRIS BAILLIE (ACT): Thank you Madam Chair. Just a couple of quick ones Minister. I'd just like clarification on the Government's attitude or the support of kāhui ako and what the Government's position is with that now. I'm aware of continued support for implementation; however I believe the in-school positions are going. That's the first thing.And I just wonder if you can clarify for me what's going on with the learning support coordinator positions currently please and moving forward over the next year or so what's happening? Thanks.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I'll try and answer those very quickly. In terms of kāhui ako the Government supports the idea of collaboration between schools and early learning services. So the concept of kāhui ako is something that we support. Do we think that the resources could be applied more flexibly? Yes we do. However having said that most of the resourcing is tied up with commitments made under the collective agreements with the New Zealand Post Primary Teachers' Association and the New Zealand Education Institute. So any further change there would be the subject of bargaining and there already has been. In the last bargaining round there was a decision taken as part of that to remove some of the resources around kāhui ako in order to fund other parts of the settlement. Any further changes are obviously then the subject of bargaining because pretty much all of the rest of the resourcing now is tied up with commitments under the collective agreement.In terms of the learning support coordinator role it remains the Government's ambition to roll out more learning support coordinator roles but that's obviously subject to getting the funding through future Budgets to do that.
Stanford Erica; Hipkins ChrisERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): This will be my last question and it's just the same question I already asked earlier but the Minister didn't answer. There is going to be a common practice model for teaching literacy; that's what the Associate Minister said. And yet today you Minister got up and said that teachers will be able to use their professional judgment: We don't want to dictate how they teach literacy."So which is it? Will there be a common practice model that dictates how teachers are to teach literacy or will there not be? Or will it be a situation where we have a common practice model that includes lots of different varying types of approaches to literacy like the balanced approach the whole language approach and structured literacy and let teachers pick and choose which bits they want? I think this is really important if the Minister could answer that because it doesn't quite gel up between what he's saying and what Jan Tinetti's saying in terms of the common practice model. Thank you.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I don't think there's a contradiction between what the Minister Jan Tinetti and I are saying. You're going to have common practice models that can include a wide range of things. That doesn't mean that we're dictating to teachers how they should apply their professional judgments."
Rurawhe Adrian; Salesa JennySPEAKER: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill.ESTIMATES DEBATEIn CommitteeDebate resumed from 30 August on the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill.CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): Members I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill. The Standing Orders provide for 11 hours of debate on the Estimates. There is one hour six minutes remaining in the debate.The Business Committee has determined that the debate will end at the conclusion of the debate with Minister of Education. The Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio so there will no sector-specific debates. All Votes are available for debate but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Education will be available today.Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or a member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister's portfolio. Once this debate expires questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the schedules and on the provisions of Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill.The time for the debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis and may be taken as parties see fit during the debate. The New Zealand Labour Party has 20 minutes remaining so I caution members of the other side if you want questions to be answered you might want to ask all your questions at the same time—well actually it is up to you but just know that there are only 20 minutes for the Minister to respond to your questions. The New Zealand National Party has 37 minutes remaining. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has six minutes remaining. ACT New Zealand has 11 minutes remaining. Te Paati Māori has eight minutes remaining.The Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government's current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table.The question being debated is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation 2022/23 stand part of the schedules. Members we have the Minister of Education to speak to the portfolio. I call on the chair of the committee Marja Lubeck.