Collins Judith; Little AndrewHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader—National): Thank you Mr Speaker. First off can I thank the Minister for his statement—it was very informative—and I've got a few questions to ask in mine. I'd like to extend the best wishes and prayers from the National Party to the victims of the terror attack at LynnMall. Nothing could be further from their minds when they went to do their grocery shopping than that they'd be confronted with a knife-wielding terrorist. We wish them a speedy recovery and that they know that New Zealand is thinking of them. The National Party will work with the Government to ensure our counter-terrorism laws and potentially immigration laws are fit for purpose. As the Minister has said New Zealand has changed the world has changed and we need to make sure that we support the Government in its primary job to keep New Zealanders safe. And as the Opposition we will want to make sure that whichever party is in Government they have the right tools to do the job. Before we can establish where the gaps were that allowed for this terrorist to remain in New Zealand and attack New Zealanders we need to know what levers were pulled by the Government. It's very clear that this man was a ticking time bomb. He made it very clear his hatred for the West for New Zealanders for white people and Kiwi values. And unlike the Australian terrorist who caused so much damage and heartache in Christchurch this terrorist was well known to the agencies charged with keeping us safe. He had been criminally charged with spreading Islamic State propaganda he'd told acquaintances of his goals to wreak havoc and he attempted to travel to Syria to fight for the Islamic State. In my eyes he was quite clearly a threat to national security. Given the decision of Government agencies to place 24/7 surveillance on him it is evident that they saw him that way too.If we look at the royal commission into the Christchurch attacks there are two broad priorities from which explicit recommendations for change are drawn. The first is ensuring there is better leadership of and support for intelligence and security in New Zealand. The second is increasing awareness and providing opportunities for a meaningful engagement for all New Zealanders in relation to extremism and preventing detecting and responding to current and emerging threats of violent extremism and terrorism. The royal commission's report was published in December last year. So of those recommendations that we would like to ask about or certainly mention is the very practical ones. So they deal with things like unpreparedness a lack of clear leadership within the agencies siloed work streams and legislative frameworks to support counter-terrorism efforts. One recommendation is to Establish a new national intelligence and security agency that is well-resourced and legislatively mandated to be responsible for strategic intelligence and security leadership". So I'd like to ask the Minister what work has been completed on this?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister responsible for the NZSIS): That work is ongoing. The significance of that particular recommendation is that it is about ensuring that functions that exist at the moment—some in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet some in other parts of Government—are concentrated to provide an apex if you like of our national security and intelligence system so that that strategic work can be done. It is not a substitute for the agencies that we have at the moment and it is the work of the agencies the SIS in particular that has been assiduous and has kept very close tabs on this particular individual and has supported the police and all those others involved in keeping the community safe.Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader—National): This particular terrorist also raises unique issues around refugee status and immigration law in New Zealand. We have international obligations to ensure the rights of refugees are upheld and we have moral obligations too. However it is my strongly held opinion that the Government of New Zealand must prioritise keeping New Zealanders safe above all else. If a refugee or an immigrant commits an act of terror or goes overseas to take part in extremist activities we should rip up their New Zealand passport. The Immigration Act 2009 does provide for this with some restrictions. I'm interested to hear from the Minister if this avenue was explored.The Minister of Immigration can certify that a person constitutes a threat or risk to security and with Cabinet's approval through an Order in Council the Governor-General can order that that person be deported. There are limitations in relation to using this section to deport refugees. However section 164 of the Act provides that "A refugee or claimant for recognition as a refugee may be deported but only if Article 32.1 or 33 of the Refugee Convention allows the deportation of the person." So it is evident that the terrorist was considered a serious threat given the surveillance he was placed under. So did he meet the criteria of article 32.1 of the refugee convention which states that "The Contracting States shall not expel a refugee lawfully in their territory save on grounds of national security or public order"?So what legal advice did the Government receive on what constitutes national security or public order grounds to allow deportation even while the offender was awaiting his appeal against his revocation of refugee status?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister responsible for the NZSIS): I can say to the Leader of the Opposition I'm not aware of what specific legal advice was given but I can say that the issue of deporting the individual was actively considered. Advice was received that because of the nature of his refugee status and the place he would be going back to and the danger he would be placed in he would more likely than not be considered an internationally protected person and therefore could not be deported.I think the Leader of the Opposition does however alight on an important tension that we have and that is we have given refugee status to an individual because of the claimed threat that he was under and yet he has posed a significant threat to fellow New Zealanders. That is an intolerable tension for any country to be under. I think it does call for us to examine our laws in the context of our international obligations but to examine our laws and to ensure that our laws don't prevent any Government affording the greatest possible protection and safety and security to its own citizens.Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader—National): In order that Parliament can address this issue more carefully and fully would the Minister consider making the legal advice available for the Opposition to view confidentially to assist us in coming together with a solution?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister responsible for the NZSIS): Look we would want to work closely with all members of the House in making sure that the laws we pass through this House on issues particularly national security issues are as robust as possible. So I hear what the member is suggesting and I will discuss that with colleagues.Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader—National): Thank you to the Minister. So while in Government National faced a lot of resistance from Opposition and media and civil society around any changes we ever sought to make to any terrorism measures. And of course the world is a very different place now—Hon Member: Oh right!Hon JUDITH COLLINS: —and the member the Minister who has unfortunately commented just now has forgotten that in 2016 when John Key spoke about 40 people being monitored due to links to a terrorist organisation John Key as the Prime Minister was referred to as scaremongering. So the world is quite different. We didn't know obviously in the first 10 years of this particular century about things like Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or what else was going on but it is very important to remember that things changed and that's why it's really important as an Opposition that we have committed to not battle the Government on every single issue around this but actually to not force the Government to have to deal with the sorts of protests and what else that we had to deal with in the search and surveillance and GCSB law changes. We're not going to echo those mistakes because ultimately Governments do need to be able to put in place legislation that is going to be fit for another Government and successive Governments to deal with. It's very tough dealing with issues like this and particularly when we're up against naturally our instincts around human rights but we also have to consider very carefully the rights of New Zealanders to be able to go about their business safely. So on behalf of the National Party we support the Government's moves around the terrorism suppression law changes and I thank the Prime Minister for her acceptance of that assistance. It simply makes for better law if we can make sure that we don't have to make changes just based on compromise rather than on what's the right thing to do. Thank you."