4. Question No. 4—JusticeNICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of JusticeQuestion No. 4—Justice4. NICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Justice: Does she agree with the Minister of Finance's May 2020 statement in relation to the Government's consideration of options to offer rent relief for commercial tenants hit by COVID-19 disruption that We're looking actively at what we do in terms of the Property Act to be able to support a fairer resolution there to ensure there is some remission" and what advice if any did she seek about policy options in relation to these matters?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice): On the first part of the question yes in the context it was made. On the second part of the question the previous Minister of Justice the Hon Andrew Little received advice from the Ministry of Justice about policy options in relation to these matters the dates and titles of which are: on 28 March 2020 COVID-19 options relating to commercial leases; 3 April 2020 Advice on commercial lease issues in the Property Law Act; 17 April 2020 A note on considering the court's powers to intervene on commercial property issues; 29 Apr 2020 A note on moratorium on cancellation of commercial leases; 30 Apr 2020 Funding for arbitration for commercial lease rent disputes; 4 May 2020 Note on strengthening commercial lease proposals to better protect small landlords. I have not sought any advice on this matter since becoming the Minister of Justice.Nicola Willis: Can she confirm that on 3 June 2020 the Cabinet Economic Development Committee with power to act from Cabinet agreed to amend the Property Law Act 2007 in order to change the rent obligations facing commercial tenants?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: I can confirm on 3 June 2020 the Cabinet Economic Development Committee with power to act from Cabinet did make a decision to include the decision to amend the Property Law Act and to provide $20 million to support parties to access in a timely and cost-effective manner through a Government subsidy provided for streamlined arbitrations at a rate of $6000 per arbitration.Nicola Willis: Why when the Cabinet agreed to a series of legislative changes did the Government not follow through with them?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: There were a range of decisions that the Cabinet did make in regards to these matters. These decisions have all been proactively released but I note that in total nine decisions were made across a broad range of areas and these concluded in the COVID-19 Response (Management Measures) Legislation Bill which received Royal assent on 2 November 2021.Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order. The question was very clear. It didn't ask whether or not Cabinet had made decisions; it asked why a decision that was made was not followed through on and that was not addressed in the answer.SPEAKER: I'll give the member an additional—because it partially addressed it but didn't quite nail it. The member can have another question.Nicola Willis: Thank you. Why did Ministers withdraw support for a number of the minuted decisions agreed to by the Cabinet Economic Development Committee in relation to arbitration of commercial lease disputes and is she satisfied personal interests did not influence their decision making?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: To the latter question no.Hon Andrew Little: What difference does the Minister think there is between a Cabinet committee considering an issue and then requiring that decision to be ratified by Cabinet with a different make-up from that committee—[Interruption]—including representatives from a coalition partner?Hon Grant Robertson: Point of order Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker you know there are very important and sensitive matters being dealt with today and you have been very consistent in your ruling about interjections on questions. We had several of them continually in that question.SPEAKER: That doesn't matter; what matters is that supplementaries should be heard in silence and that's my expectation. The Minister can answer the question.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: If the member wants to ask a specific question about a specific decision that was made—SPEAKER: No you're answering the Hon Andrew Little's question.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Oh. Ha ha! Mr Speaker—SPEAKER: Did you want to ask it again?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Yeah sure. Please repeat the question.Hon Andrew Little: Happy to oblige Mr Speaker. To the Minister: what difference does the Minister think it makes when a Cabinet committee considers an issue and on reporting to Cabinet has that issue considered by a different range of people including coalition partners?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: A Cabinet decision is one that is made of course by all of the Cabinet members after a fulsome discussion.Nicola Willis: Why when Cabinet authorised the Cabinet Economic Development Committee with the power to act—and it invited the Minister of Justice to issue drafting instructions to the parliamentary counsel to give effect to a number of policy decisions relating to commercial rent relief—did the Minister not introduce that legislation?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Look on this particular specific question: if the member wants to put a specific question in writing—Nicola Willis: It's very specific Minister.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: Yes it is very specific and the member will be well aware that there were a range of decisions taken at that time. So if you do have a specific question I would welcome that specific question to be put into writing and I'll be happy to respond.Nicola Willis: Point of order Mr Speaker. My question was very specific. It was about why legislation was not introduced given the instruction of the Economic Development Committee that the Minister of Justice drafted. I think that is quite specific.SPEAKER: Yep. It's not about specificity; it's about the fact that the question was answered.Nicola Willis: Did the Minister for Small Business raise concerns about the proposals contained in Cabinet minute DEV-20-MIN-0100 and if so what were those?Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: As the member will be well aware I was not the Minister of Justice at that time. Again if she would like to put a specific question in writing I would be happy to provide a written response to that member.Nicola Willis: Point of order Mr Speaker. Prior to coming to the House I reviewed your rulings on this because my question was transferred to this Minister and I was aware that she wasn't in the Cabinet that had made these decisions. You have ruled that Ministers are answerable to the House for decisions taken in their portfolios since the commencement of the Labour Government in 2017. The Minister should have come to the House prepared to answer these questions. She is accountable to the New Zealand public.Hon Grant Robertson: Speaking to the point of order. The Minister has as you've been listening answered questions that relate to a period of time in which she was not in Cabinet and she's been doing that right through this period.Nicola Willis: Why didn't you answer them?Hon Grant Robertson: I don't know; it's a point of order you can take your own—SPEAKER: Points of order and speaking to points of order are heard in silence.Hon Grant Robertson: As I said you would have noted that the Minister has been answering the questions that have been put so far about matters when she was not a Minister—and has answered those questions. She also in her primary answer read out a very long and extensive list of policy advice that was created. The expectation that a Minister could come and answer the very specific questions that the member has been putting on each and every one of those bits of advice is beyond what we'd expect of any—Chris Bishop: It was on notice.Hon Grant Robertson: It was beyond what we'd expect of any Minister.Hon Member: When do they lose a supplementary question?SPEAKER: Who was that?Hon Member: Not me.SPEAKER: That's two. One two—won't lose count. Right. To the point of order: yes I am very aware of the rulings that I have made. In this instance the Minister has not attempted to not answer the question. The Minister has actually addressed the question. It is up to the House and the public to judge the quality of that answer. And now we'll have both Chris Bishop and the Hon Grant Robertson stand withdraw and apologise.Chris Bishop: I was waiting for you to go first. I withdraw and apologise.Hon Grant Robertson: I withdraw and apologise.Nicola Willis: Is she satisfied that all Ministers properly declared and managed personal interests that could have been seen to have influenced Cabinet decision-making on these matters?Hon Grant Robertson: Point of order. That is not the responsibility of this Minister; that is the responsibility of the Prime Minister.SPEAKER: Well the question has been asked and as everyone knows I have allowed questions whether they're out of order or not. If it's the Minister's answer that she doesn't have responsibility then that's the answer.Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: I do not have ministerial responsibility for that particular question."