English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:610;Page:7506] 
2.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Was Hon John Tamihere correct when he said she would announce the Government’s plans for the seabed and foreshore next week and will they include plans for her Government to introduce legislation for exclusive Crown ownership? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Like Mr Tamihere I hope it will be possible to give a further indication of Government thinking next week although given the complexity of the issues I am not prepared to commit to a precise time for that. Legislation will be required to ensure that private exclusive title is not created over what has long been regarded as public domain. 
Hon Bill English 
: Given that the Prime Minister consistently repeats that private exclusive title will not be able to be granted will she achieve that by asserting what she claimed 6 weeks ago: that the beaches and the foreshore and their ownership lie with the Crown? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I recall some few weeks ago I said they had long been considered to lie with the Crown. It has been very difficult to find a piece of legislation that spells that out. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Will the legislation she proposes clarify what has been the understood status quo: that the foreshore and seabed lie with the Crown? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The proposed legislation which we will be consulting on will clarify that the public has rights of access and that Maori also have interests to be protected. We are endeavouring to reconcile two sets of rights. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Does she still consider that the ownership of the foreshore and seabed belongs with the Crown—yes or no? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What I consider is irrelevant; it is a question of what the legal position is and the legal position on that is not clear. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have a continuing problem. I asked a very specific question—what the Prime Minister considers a matter to be; yes or no—and she deflected it by saying it is not important what she considers. A lot of people may agree with that but I want an answer to my question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Prime Minister is not required to be put in a position where she just has to say “Yes” or “No”. There may be other options. After she made that comment she gave one of those other options. 
Metiria Turei 
: Why is it OK to override Maori customary title that does not restrict access to the coast while at the same time ignoring Pakeha private exclusive title that does restrict public access to the New Zealand beaches? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I said last week in answer to a similar question from the member the Minister of Agriculture and Minister for Rural Affairs has an access committee looking at precisely some of those issues. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Can the Prime Minister assure New Zealanders that at the end of the process she has embarked upon and the Government is involved in at present the traditional understanding of rights of access to and enjoyment of the foreshore and seabed by all New Zealanders will not have changed and that life will carry on pretty much as it was prior to the recent court ruling? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: That is certainly the direction we are heading in and I note that the member like myself noted that very helpful comments came from Mr Jones of the Maori Fisheries Commission this morning about the need for both sides to this issue the Crown and Maori to look for a win-win solution. 
Stephen Franks 
: If she wants to tell Maori they have a legitimate claim why would they settle for anything less than the full exclusive and undisturbed possession promised by the treaty or is so-called guardianship just a softening-up? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: This is not a treaty issue; it is a common-law issue. It is clear that in the law of New Zealand at the present time issues like customary rights and title are not clearly defined at all. That is why I agree entirely with the National Party spokesperson on Maori affairs that there is a need to sort it out. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why did the Prime Minister make her public statement 6 weeks ago giving the impression she would move to assert Crown ownership when she has told us today that her own views are irrelevant that there is no legislation to back up Crown ownership and that it is a common-law issue that needs to be sorted out; did she not know that 6 weeks ago? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What I said some weeks ago is what most New Zealanders would have understood which is that those areas had long been considered to lie in the public domain. The Court of Appeal has set in train a process that could lead to them being put out of the public domain. That is what the Government on behalf of the public of New Zealand cannot tolerate. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why has the Prime Minister put in train a series of negotiations with her Maori members to the effect that one condition is that they would bargain the right to access for the Maori people for aquaculture rights as part of that deal? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: That is not the process that is in train. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: In the light of the Prime Minister’s answer to my earlier question can she give the House a view about reported statements that Auckland iwi groups are now preparing to lodge claims over the foreshore and seabed because they fear that those opportunities might be about to be removed from them? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: No doubt many iwi are studying the Court of Appeal decision. It is unfortunate that some people have jumped from a decision about where certain matters can be heard to an assumption that ownership automatically follows. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Prime Minister aware of the answer to a question provided yesterday by Margaret Wilson outlining 16 detailed claims that have been put in front of the Maori Land Court and what steps does the Government intend to take to prevent those claims proceeding far enough to frustrate the will of New Zealanders that ownership of the beach stays with the Crown for the use of everybody? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As the member’s party’s own Maori affairs spokesperson has said the Maori Land Court is probably the appropriate place to look at issues like customary rights. But the Government will have more to say on how to proceed in future when it puts the proposals out for consultation. 
Stephen Franks 
: If this is simply a matter of common law and not a treaty issue why does not Parliament deal with it and change it—as it does in the interests of all New Zealanders almost every day? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am sure the member does not mean to imply in that question that the people of New Zealand and their various interests are never consulted. What we are on about here is nation building and getting win-win solutions—not polarisation as practised by Opposition parties. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Government parties do; Mr Dunne did. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have warned Mr Smith about interjecting from a more favourable position. That is his one warning for today.