4. Question No. 4—Prime MinisterDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT) to the Prime MinisterQuestion No. 4—Prime Minister4. DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT) to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her answers relating to pre-departure testing in oral question No. 3 on 7 September?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): Yes. I stand by also the decision to follow the advice of the Ministry of Health. As I said on 7 September there were multiple reasons why Health advised against requiring a pre-departure test for those returning from New South Wales at that point in time. This included the situation in New South Wales at the time and the fact that returnees would be travelling on red flights back to 14 days of managed isolation. I also stand by this Government's ability to change and adapt as the situation changes and adapts and as the public health advice does so too.David Seymour: Is the red flight for this coming Wednesday also not returning to New Zealand followed by 14 days of isolation for the passengers and if so why will they be requiring pre-departure testing when the last red flight that turned out to have a COVID case on it that has subsequently leaked out into the community was not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I said at the time—and I reiterate this again—I would just caution the member on the assumption that had a 72-hour pre-departure test been in place at that time that that would have changed the course of history. I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. On the issue of pre-departure testing generally you'll remember of course when we had quarantine-free travel there were no pre-departure testing requirements. Health have subsequently changed the orders that apply to all of Australia because there have been different rules that have sat across different states and now brought all of those into alignment keeping in mind that previously New South Wales was the only state that had red flights available and now that's broadening out. Now the pre-departure testing is sitting across every state.David Seymour: What is different in New South Wales this coming Wednesday or will be different that wasn't the case last month when flights came with no pre-departure testing and the same outbreak was under way?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The time that the decision was made was around if I recall correctly about 9 July or there or thereabouts. So that's when that decision was made based on what was happening in New South Wales to instead of—and keep in mind what the decision originally was. The decision was: do we allow people from New South Wales to come in on flights into New Zealand with nothing except health declarations and so on or do we put them into managed isolation facilities? Now at that time the decision was made to put them into managed isolation facilities. The day before we received that advice there were 38 cases in New South Wales. So that is what was different at that time. Also keep in mind there was a short time period from that announcement to when the first flights would enable people to come home. There was also a view around whether or not at that time the level of restrictions meant that someone was at more risk by going out in order to be tested versus staying at home. The final piece of advice that we received if I recall correctly was—no sorry. There's a third reason that I'd be happy to share with the member if I can recall off the top of my head over the course of this line of questioning.David Seymour: If someone has COVID-19 should they be allowed on a plane full of people and if not shouldn't the Government be ensuring that to the best of their ability this doesn't happen?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course to the best of our ability we try and reduce down risk but we always make an assumption that every single traveller coming into New Zealand has COVID-19. That's the assumption that we work off. I now recall the additional piece of advice was that one cannot make an assumption that a 72-hour pre-departure test immediately eliminates the possibility that someone will have COVID-19. It doesn't and so that is why we do day-zero testing as well. It's also why we have testing across the course of someone being in managed isolation and interestingly what the advice also contains to Ministers from 9 July is the reported level of incidence in New South Wales of late onset and then wide infection. I recall now the additional thing I wanted to share with the member: we also of course had a health declaration. So everyone who was travelling also had to declare that they had not been at a place of interest or in contact with someone who had COVID and that was at a time when in New South Wales as I say 38 cases were being reported a day. So that was an additional declaration that had to be made by everyone who was coming in on those red flights.Hon Chris Hipkins: Have COVID-19 - positive people been identified in managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) among those who had completed a pre-departure test before arriving in New Zealand and has the Government's position always been that while pre-departure testing provides an extra layer of assurance it is not a guarantee that people won't come into New Zealand with COVID-19?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Absolutely and that is why we have the day-zero test. We've always treated everyone as if they may have COVID-19. Again the 72 hours beforehand of course means that it is not without risk. It's an additional layer. But there were multiple reasons for the advice at that time and Ministers accepted that advice keeping in mind that the most precautionary thing we could do would be to put people into MIQ and that is what we did.David Seymour: Does the Prime Minister accept that the origin of the current outbreak came into New Zealand while her Government had consciously decided to drop that extra layer of protection and if not why is she reintroducing that extra layer of protection now?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I've already said to the member we are resuming red flights across Australia and so we need to make sure that we have a consistent application of those requirements across Australia. So that is what is different now. The second point I would make is: I accept that we put thousands of people into quarantine. That is what we did. There were multiple layers in our response constantly to try and protect New Zealand from COVID-19 at our borders and 160000 people have come through and for the most part we've been seeing very very few incidents. In fact the only other thing I would say to the member is from what I know of the time line of this case it would be wrong to assume that a 72-hour pre-departure test would have necessarily stopped this individual from coming in in the first place. So again I just stand by all of the efforts that have been made and every effort that's being made to try and determine what happened at our quarantine facilities in the aftermath.