English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:632;Page:3984] 
6.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister for Tertiary Education 
: What types of courses are paid for out of the nearly $120 million referred to in his reply to written question No. 2740 (2006)? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Did a member interject? I heard an interjection or a comment from someone. 
Jill Pettis 
: Begging the Speaker’s pardon I was not interjecting on the member; I was gesticulating to somebody. I apologise. I was not interjecting. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Members please have some order here. My difficulty on this particular ruling is that frequently members talk—they do not interject; they talk amongst themselves—particularly those seated especially close to the speaker and it is often difficult to determine whether they are in fact interjecting so that people cannot hear the question or whether they are having a conversation. We have no rule that says members cannot have conversations so I ask members to please keep a level of quietness in this House so that we can conduct question time in an orderly way. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) 
: 
 Foundation studies courses. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why when the courses have cost the Government $120 million of public money and involve 79000 students is the Minister unable to give any definition of what those courses are? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Foundation level courses are those that are classified as mixed field. They focus on literacy numeracy life skills employment skills etc. I am advised that that is for a statistical purpose and I will elaborate on that further when the member asks his next supplementary question. 
Moana Mackey 
: Why is the Government investing in foundation studies courses? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It is doing so because clearly issues of adult literacy are major issues within New Zealand. Clearly too it is desirable to try to reconnect people with the formal education system to address those issues. Of course that does not mean to say the Government should not be very conscious about value-for-money elements which is why my predecessor started taking some action in these areas. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Can the Minister confirm that data on foundation courses for the year 2000 is unavailable because the system his Government inherited from the previous National Government was so poor that the data is of insufficient quality to provide reliable numbers? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: That is the case—that is the advice I have—which is why we are able to make comparisons only from 2001 onwards. Those comparisons are available. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Why 6 years after the beginning of the Modern Apprenticeships programme and after $100 million of spending does the Minister still not know how many apprentices actually drop out of those courses? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: What we do have are completion numbers. As I explained to the select committee calculating completion rates is quite difficult when one has a developing scheme because obviously the numbers gear up over time in terms of completion. The completion rate for the first year is almost 0 percent. Clearly that tends to rise significantly from then on. We now have well over 2000 completions. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Tena koe Madam Speaker; tena tatou katoa. How many foundation courses with a specific Maori focus were cut over 2004-05 and what has been the impact on Maori participation in the regions? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am afraid I do not have that number in front of me. It would probably be very very difficult to extract that level of data from the system. I will try to do my best to get back to him but I doubt the data is available in that form. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that he has told the House today that the Government last year spent $120 million of the money that was meant to subsidise students in tertiary courses—those offered at universities and polytechnics—on literacy numeracy and life skills and does he think it appropriate that universities should be teaching those sorts of courses? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: There is some role for universities to teach those courses. It is fair to say however that very little of that money has been spent by universities. The only really significant provider at university level in that area is the Auckland University of Technology. 
Hon Bill English 
: How can the Minister avoid waste in these large programmes—such as $120 million for student component foundation skills and $100 million on Modern Apprenticeships schemes—when his own officials have told him that the data-recording system can show students are completing those courses when they were never enrolled in them and that many tertiary institutions are themselves dismayed at the low quality of data about these courses and how can he exercise any accountability for this $200 million? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I think the problem the member highlights is not one that relates particularly to the Modern Apprenticeships scheme. I accept there have been some difficulties elsewhere. It is part of the reason I took—I think—some six or seven different papers through Cabinet committee today on changing the system we inherited from the previous Government. 
Hon Bill English 
: When will the Minister answer the very simple question I put to him as a primary question and have put to him a number of times in written questions and that is to lay out in detail the types of courses and the institutions that were paid $120 million of student component—that is tertiary student subsidy—for teaching foundation skills and why will he not answer that question? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am happy to table today data for 2001-04 in terms of foundation education courses. I would emphasise that these are self-identified by the institutions— 
Hon Bill English 
: So you don’t know. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If the member waits for a moment— 
Hon Bill English 
: 120 million and you don’t know. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If the member cares to shut up for a minute and control his anger— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Let the Minister answer. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I was about to say something nice about the member but I will forgo that opportunity given his interjection.