Henare Tau: Protected Objects Amendment Bill — In Committee 
Henare Tau: Protected Objects Amendment Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:632;Page:4383] 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I too want to broach the subject of nga taonga tuturu. Clause 15(1) states: “The heading to section 11 is amended by omitting the word ‘artifacts’ and substituting the words ‘nga taonga tuturu’.” Does that mean that the word “artifacts” goes completely? If it does I am not that happy about it because I believe that one should have both. “Artifacts” means exactly what it means; it is an artefact. But I think we would be better off leaving both of the words in there so it is quite clear rather than to say that “nga taonga tuturu” is a translation of “artifacts”—because that is what it means to remove the word “artifacts” and put in the words “nga taonga tuturu”. I am not a fan of removing one and replacing it with the other. I think there is every reason to actually have both Maori and English in the provision rather than trying to translate and interpret what one Maori concept is as opposed to an English concept; one has them both there so there will not be any hassle down the road. So if the Minister in the chair Judith Tizard could enlighten the Committee that would be a miracle. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: This is Part 2. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: There is also the issue of why it should be the Maori Land Court—[ 
Interruption 
] I was on Part 2. 
I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Is there some issue about me not being on Part 2? 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No just at the beginning. Yes the member is right. You are into Part 2 now; you are quite right. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: But I was speaking about nga taonga tuturu and the word “artifact”. That comes in Part 2 does it not? 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: No “artifact” does not. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh it does not? 
Sandra Goudie 
: Yes it does. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Well why does the heading state: “Part 2 “Nga taonga tuturu ownership and Maori Land Court”? 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Because it is in the interpretation. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Could the member please move on. He is on Part 2 now. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh for goodness’ sake! They will try anything in this Committee to break the flow of a really well-thought-out korero. I did not come down here just to waste the Committee’s time. For goodness’ sake! 
Sandra Goudie 
: Here is a definition of “artifact”. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I thank my learned colleague very much for the definition of “artifact”: “ ‘Artifact’ means any chattel carving object or thing which relates to the history art culture traditions or economy of the Maori or other pre-European inhabitants of New Zealand”—well there were no pre-European inhabitants other than Maori—“and which was or appears to have been manufactured or modified in New Zealand by any such inhabitant”. I am basically saying that those two should actually go together—“artifact” and “nga taonga tuturu”. There is nothing wrong with having them together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with actually putting it out there and saying “Here we are this is what it’s all about.” 
But I digress. One issue that I do want to raise with the Minister is why it is the Maori Land Court. Why should the Maori Land Court be the one to determine the ownership? Why are we not saying that actually ownership of artefacts or ownership of nga taonga tuturu is such a big thing why not put it up to the top court? 
Hon Georgina te Heuheu 
: Because it costs money. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Well of course it costs money. So is my colleague saying that we are better off putting it in the Maori Land Court because it is cheaper to get into the Maori Land Court? If that is the case then there is something wrong with our justice system—there is absolutely something wrong with our justice system. Who is to determine the ownership? Is it the Chief Judge on his own or is it the district courts—the lower-level courts system? It is not that clear. 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: It is the registrar. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: So it is the registrar of the Maori Land Court who determines the ownership of nga taonga tuturu. Well I think that is a bit of a mess. I know a few of the registrars around town. They are all good people but if one is going to determine ownership in a court system— 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: It is where the ownership is agreed. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: So who determines ownership when it is not agreed? 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Well then it would have to go through a court process. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: And which court would that be? Is it the Maori Land Court or is it through the High Court system or— 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Through the Maori Land Court. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: It is good that that has been sorted out. 
I am grateful for the—[ 
Interruption 
] Sorry? The member is having a conniption over there. I am grateful to the officials who have sorted out that matter because ownership when there is a dispute—especially when we are dealing with a Maori artefact—is sometimes mind-boggling. I refer back to the issue I raised earlier about moko mokai. Because they could be so ancient nobody particularly knows when those taonga may have come from. There may be an indication through ta moko where they may have come from geographically but nobody particularly knows unless a DNA test is done and God forbid that. 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: It depends on whether you know who your father was. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I know who my father was absolutely. 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Have you had a DNA test? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I know who my father was and I find that insinuation absolutely shocking. I find it shocking that in this day and age when some of our youngsters out there are crying out for their fathers and mothers I have an accusation from Judith Tizard asking whether I know my father. Damn right I know who my father is and he is a brilliant man. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Order! 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: The issue was raised by the Minister not me Mr Chairman. I was in full flight talking about nga taonga tuturu. I was talking about artefacts. I am appalled. 
Tim Groser 
: We’ll get you counselling afterwards all right? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Victim support. 
I think it is a serious matter in terms of some of the issues that have been raised tonight especially about ownership. I would not like Parliament to get it wrong because if we do especially on an issue like this there will be repercussions down the line. There will be Waitangi Tribunal claims about ownership. Claims about ownership issues are already before the tribunal. Hopefully this part will go some way towards sorting that out. 
I do congratulate the Minister. I was only taking the proverbial about this and I understand that she was only joking as well.