English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:629;Page:1448] 
8.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister for Tertiary Education 
: Did the ministerial appointees to the council of the Universal College of Learning approve the appointment of two full-time chief executives in December 2005; if so what were their reasons for this unprecedented decision? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) 
: 
 I am advised that the answer is no. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Minister aware that the reasons the Universal College of Learning in Palmerston North has given for having two chief executives are that it needs one of them to be in Wellington every week “negotiating our future” and that the chairman says his management now has to weave their way through a set of unpredictable and ridiculous regulations churned out by ideologues in Wellington? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: No I am not in part because the college does not have two chief executives. It has a chief executive. When he is absent on other duties which include of course looking after the situation in Wanganui which is quite a pressing one for the college the college has decided to make it clear that Clare Crawley is the acting chief executive in that situation—a situation that I might say I am not entirely unused to myself. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Government intend to extend this policy of one chief executive for the price of two to all Crown entities where chief executives are struggling to implement bad Government policies? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I think it is important that any organisation that is going to be credible in the public eye has one effective outstanding chief executive or leader and I recommend it to the members opposite. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that the Universal College Of Learning believes that it has two chief executives even if he does not believe it; and what proportion of the $3 million bail-out to the college 2 weeks ago or of the 5 percent fee increase for all students is going towards paying the salaries of two chief executives when there used to be one? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If I may I quote the council resolution of the Universal College of Learning to assist the member—the second part of the resolution: “Where the chief executive is absent from duty from whatever cause arising from time to time all or any of the functions powers and duties of the chief executive or pertaining to the position of the chief executive may be exercised and performed by Clare Crawley for the time being as acting chief executive.” 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that Paul McElroy the chief executive has described the two positions as “joint chief executives” and that Mr McElroy has opened an office in Wellington full time when his polytechnic is in Palmerston North; and can he confirm that this is a sweetheart deal for the chief executive of the Universal College of Learning—who is a very close friend of senior Ministers in his Government—whereby Mr McElroy is now paid to sit in Wellington doing nothing while another chief executive is paid to sit in Palmerston North running a polytech? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I can certainly confirm that he is not a very close friend of mine. I actually had to find out what his name was when I was told about the question today. I repeat that there is one chief executive— 
Hon Bill English 
: That’s rubbish! 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Pardon? 
Hon Bill English 
: That’s rubbish! 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: What is? 
Hon Bill English 
: You just signed off a bail-out deal with him. How come you didn’t know his name? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes and he has not been in my office for weeks. I am afraid not Madam Speaker. The member is getting totally confused on that matter. I invite him to present any evidence in that particular regard. It is true to say that the previous Government’s policy of a total “bums on seats; don’t mind about the quality approach to polytechnics” got a number of polytechnics into financial difficulties. The guilty man is sitting right over there. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Supplementary question the Hon Bill English. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: How can that be in order? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have called the question but someone else who obviously does not want to stay in the Chamber too long called out after I called. So would the Hon Bill English please address his supplementary question. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The reason why I said “How can that— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I did not know it was you I am sorry. I just heard someone call. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Regardless the comment that was made at the end of Dr Cullen’s answer was completely out of order with your previous rulings about Standing Order 377 with regard to ministerial answers. I was asking whether you were ever going to bother enforcing the Standing Orders. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: As a former Minister with some experience in this area I can make it clear to the House that Dr McElroy has done an enormous amount of work in Wanganui and in the Wairarapa in order to clean up the mess that was left by the previous Government’s policy. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No. Thank you but that was not relevant to the point of order that has been raised. I listened to the debate that was going on and lots of ironical comments were being tossed across the Chamber in that particular debate. I therefore rule that we should proceed with the supplementary question of the Hon Bill English. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm what he has just said— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry. I just heard a comment from Mr Brownlee that the Speaker was one-sided. If that was correct Mr Brownlee I want you to withdraw and apologise for that comment. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: It is most certainly not correct Madam Speaker. I was speaking to my colleague here on another matter. It was a rare occasion that the House was so quiet and I do not appreciate being named like that. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I asked you to withdraw and apologise if in fact you had said it. There was no need after you had given your explanation to add that other comment— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
:—so I thank you for your explanation. Would the Hon Bill English please ask his supplementary question. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm a couple of things he has just said to the House: first that he has written out a cheque for $3 million of public money to a man he has never met and whose name he does not know and second despite the fact that the Universal College of Learning is paying Paul McElroy full time as a chief executive to be in Wellington Mr McElroy has never met the Minister for Tertiary Education? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: There are many people in the tertiary education sector I have yet to meet. There are a rather large number of them—probably too many as a result of previous policies. Firstly I do not write out cheques. Secondly the payment is to the Universal College of Learning not to an individual within it. It is possible that National Governments used to write personal cheques to chief executives—to their mates. Maybe that is how Dr Wetere did rather well at Te Wananga o Aotearoa but it is not my practice as Minister for Tertiary Education.