Samuels Dover: Treaty of Waitangi (Removal of Conflict of Interest) Amendment Bill — Second Reading 
Samuels Dover: Treaty of Waitangi (Removal of Conflict of Interest) Amendment Bill — Second Reading 
[Volume:647;Page:16709] 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS (Labour) 
: 
 Te mea tuatahi maku kei te mihi atu ki a koe e te whaea Georgina i roto i au nei tirohanga mo tenei pire e pa ana ki te Ropu o te Taraipiunara. Na reira kei te mihi atu. 
[ 
The first thing for me is to acknowledge your views madam Georgina in respect of this bill about the Waitangi Tribunal 
.] 
I am just acknowledging the contribution by the Hon Georgina te Heuheu in terms of her wise observations about this bill. I am very interested in making a contribution to this bill because it talks about conflicts of interest. 
Na tuarua kei te mihi atu ki a koe e te whanaunga e Pita nau nei tenei take i whakapuaki ake hei korerotanga hei whakawhitiwhititanga whakaaro mo nga ahuatanga e pa ana ki te tribunal. 
[ 
Secondly I acknowledge you Pita the relative the one responsible for this bill as we debate and deliberate aspects relating to the tribunal 
.]  
I am acknowledging also the contribution and the introduction of this bill by our colleague Pita Paraone. It actually goes to the core of what the Waitangi Tribunal is all about. I supported the introduction of the Treaty of Waitangi (Removal of Conflict of Interest) Amendment Bill and its referral to the Justice and Electoral Committee. The reason was the unclear nature of the process in terms of proposed or perceived conflicts of interest. I think it is very important that when we look at a judiciary—specifically the tribunal and the tribunal’s functions—we can have confidence in it. Irrespective of the make-up of the tribunal the people of New Zealand both Maori and non-Maori have to be confident that the people in our jurisdictions have the ability and integrity to carry out their duties without conflict and without persuasion by anybody. 
At the time of the bill’s introduction I read its explanatory note which comes from our colleague Pita Paraone who is the architect of the bill. It states: “It seems highly dubious to allow serving Judges of either court to preside over matters on the Waitangi Tribunal when they may have presided over those matters in the High Court or the Maori Land Court.” Reading that stirs up ideas that there may be duplication or some conflicts of interest in terms of the jurisdiction of judges and rightly so—I think the matter needed to be raised. This issue has been in the minds of many people involved not only in the tribunal but—God help us—in the Maori Land Court. 
So I think that allowing the bill to go to a select committee was the appropriate process. It is in that arena that we listen to submissions from people who have experience and knowledge about these matters. The select committee process also allows us to canvass the general public and those stakeholders who may be affected and who are intending to make submissions to the tribunal or the Maori Land Court. That is the process that would eradicate or alleviate any concerns about the issues of proposed or perceived conflicts of interest. 
I know that my colleague Pita Paraone is disappointed but I thank him for raising the issue. I think this Parliament owes him that gratitude and I would expect that members of that select committee would take on board his real concerns about the perceived conflict of interest. As I said before I was one of the ones who supported the bill’s referral to the Justice and Electoral Committee. 
Now the bill has come back to the House and I thank the select committee members for their very comprehensive report. I am mindful of the conclusion of that report where the select committee says: “We consider that there is no inherent conflict of interest in sitting judges of the High Court or Maori Land Court serving on the Waitangi Tribunal or the Chief Judge of the Maori Land Court acting as the Chairperson of the Waitangi Tribunal.” Well that is good enough for me. Although I understand the disappointment of my colleague Pita Paraone I think he can understand and also appreciate the objectivity that has been brought to the process by the select committee and I am glad to hear that that sentiment has also come from the Hon Georgina te Heuheu. 
I have always been concerned about the integrity of the process not only of the Waitangi Tribunal but also of the Maori Land Court. This bill goes to the heart of the functions of the tribunal when we talk about the integrity of those who are presiding. Some of the decisions of the tribunal have been rather dubious. I understand some of the reasons why and I understand the environment that the tribunal has to work in. It must decide whether the evidence that is put before it is historical fantasy—made up by people who have some sort of cultural diversions if you like and who have been watching  
The Lord of the Rings 
 and coming before the tribunal with that type of evidence—or historical fact. 
There are two phenomena within this jurisdiction. There are those who have many stories to tell. There are those who still believe that Maui fished the North Island out of the sea—I am one of them because I am a fisherman. But it is not necessarily factual and it is not necessarily true. So when these matters are put before the tribunal we need the rangatira both men and women who have wide knowledge about tikanga and tekanga. They are two different things. Tikanga is the culture of Maori and tekanga is the spinning of a lot of bullshit—with respect Madam Assistant Speaker. That is the inherent difference. Sometimes when rangatira are sitting up there they are confused at the difference between tikanga and tekanga. 
I see that my colleague Pita Sharples has a smile on his face. He knows what I am talking about. In the past I have sometimes seen him presiding on both sides of the table and I do not know whether he is telling me tekanga or tikanga! He has advocated in this House this afternoon about tennis players—about Ngati Kahungunu being tennis players mai ra ano since 1840. I can tell members that the Ngapuhi have been tennis players since the 1600s. Our rocks our tennis balls were a bloody sight bigger than theirs. So that comes back to tekanga again. 
I come back to the bill Madam Assistant Speaker; I am just saying that therein is the integrity. We are satisfied that the select committee has done its job and I support the committee’s appropriate recommendation. 
No reira kei te mihi ki a tatou katoa. E Pita tena koe me wo whakatauki a ko koe te rangatira o te purei paoro o te tenehi. Taku korero ki a koe ata korero. Kei kona taku whanaunga a Hone e titiro ana ki a koe a te wa e tu ai te All Blacks ki te purei tena pea kua wini tatou. No reira huri ana i to tatou Whare tena koutou. 
[ 
So I acknowledge all of us. Peter greetings to you and your wise sayings. You said you were a top tennis player. I say to you look out. My relative Hone is over there keeping an eye on you. When the All Blacks turn out to play—who knows we might win. So greetings to you collectively throughout our House 
.] 
Madam Assistant Speaker thank you for your indulgence. Kia ora tatou.