Rurawhe Adrian; Robertson Grant; Seymour David; Shaw JamesPARLIAMENTARY MEMBERSHIPNew Zealand Labour Party—Hon Meka WhaitiriSPEAKER: Members I wish to inform you that under Standing Order 35(5) the Hon Meka Whaitiri is from today regarded as an independent member for parliamentary purposes. Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker for that advice. I raise matters with you that I think have some very important constitutional merit. This morning at the Waipatu Marae in Hastings the member for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti addressing a hui made the following comment: This morning I have officially notified the Speaker that I have resigned from the New Zealand Labour Party and have joined Te Paati Māori effective immediately." Now as you know under sections 55A and 55B of the Electoral Act a member who ceases to be a parliamentary member of the political party for which the member was elected where they cease to be a member vacates that seat effectively. Now Ms Whaitiri has informed the public that she wrote to you and on the face of it that would meet the terms of section 55B. If that were not the case I wonder if you could inform the House whether a written notice wasn't received and if it was received what about sections 55A 55B and 55C were not met that meant that that vacation wasn't triggered? Thirdly without wanting to cast any aspersions I think this is an important constitutional matter the like of which has not been tested since section 55 was amended in 2018. I wonder if you would consider tabling the correspondence that you received from Ms Whaitiri. SPEAKER: Members will be well aware that any member can say anything they like outside of this Chamber. When it comes to as the member has pointed out sections 55A to 55E then there's some very specific events that need to happen for me to declare a seat vacant. I can confirm to the House that those events have not happened and I have therefore not done so.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): Speaking to that point Mr Speaker. I accept that and I'm certainly not wanting to challenge that. But I do think it is important given that the intent of section 55A in substance was that when a member resigns from a parliamentary party and indicates to you as she has that she is now joining another political party in this House that it behoves those parties to that correspondence to inform this Chamber how section 55A(2) is not invoked. I tread carefully for two reasons: one is that your decisions won't be challenged in that regard but secondly this is a really really important matter and I'm not sure that we have yet had the full disclosure of what's actually transpired here. I accept the point that you make that what Meka Whaitiri says outside this House does not count necessarily but you yourself have acknowledged that that correspondence was received but seemed to indicate that it was not in the form or of the substance that was described by Ms Whaitiri after she sent it to you. And I do think we need to traverse this—perhaps in more detail. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House): Speaking to the point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. The only point I wanted to add to from what the member just did is to make sure that we fully understand section 55A of the Electoral Act. While 55A(2) which the member alluded to does state that the seat of the member becomes vacant under the circumstances he described it is important to read that in the context of 53A(3) which says "For the purposes of subsection (2) a member of Parliament ceases to be a parliamentary member of the political party for which the member of Parliament was elected only if—" and then goes through. So just the impression could have been gained from what Mr Woodhouse just said that subsection (2) stands alone—it doesn't. Subsection (3) is the determining factor of subsection (2).Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): Speaking to that point. I accept that and I think that was implied in what I had said because section 55A(3)(a) basically says that that only gets triggered if the member of Parliament delivers to the Speaker a written notice that complies with section 55B. What's not clear to me—or the House I would expect—is whether or not that did not happen or whether it didn't happen in a form commensurate with the requirements of section 55B.I would also add this: I don't believe it was the Electoral Act's intention that the form of communication prevented the effect of the Act from being followed. So essentially what we may have is a situation where because of paperwork a person that has in fact resigned from a parliamentary political party and has joined another political party is nevertheless still able to maintain the seat despite section 55A. Now I'm not quite sure whether this is the right forum to have this litigated but I do believe that the Chamber and the public have a right to understand exactly how the Electoral Act has been interpreted in this situation.SPEAKER: I think it would be a dangerous situation for the Speaker of the House to start interpreting things that clearly have not been officially submitted to me. Now as I began my ruling members can say whatever they like outside of this House but unless they inform me in the correct way by sending me a signed letter that that is the case I can't act on it and I'm not prepared to do that until I get a letter signed by the member concerned that what she has said outside is her intention to do. Chris Bishop: Point or order Mr Speaker. SPEAKER: Is this a new one? CHRIS BISHOP (National): Yeah it's a very important point sir because section 53B puts out three requirements. One is that it has to be signed by the member of Parliament and you've just stressed the word "signature" or "signed" a couple of times which may be a giveaway. So could I ask you: is the issue that it was received electronically without an actual physical signature—which I think would be debatable because it's a longstanding rule now that electronic signatures are available and emails can be essentially received electronically?The second point is that it has to be addressed to the Speaker. That seems like a matter of form. Is that the issue?Then the third issue sir which I do think the House needs some ventilation on is the issue of resignation from a parliamentary membership of a political party. Is it the case sir that something turns on the word "parliamentary"? Members with long memories will remember the incident in 2002 when the Hon Jim Anderton resigned from the leadership of The Alliance Party but remained a parliamentary member of The Alliance Party for various parliamentary reasons. Are you sir drawing a distinction between Ms Whaitiri's membership of the Labour Party in the incorporated society sense of membership and membership of the Labour Party for political purposes in a parliamentary sense? I know it sounds technical but this is an important matter.SPEAKER: To the first part I can confirm to the House that I have not received any letter of resignation signed or unsigned OK? So that's the first part. What I have received—[Interruption] This is important OK? So interrupting while I'm making a ruling—you might find it funny but this is a serious issue. What I have been advised by an—before I say this actually I believe I follow the law to the letter and so when I tell this House that I do not have a letter I actually mean it: I don't. What I have got is an indication from the Hon Meka Whaitiri that for parliamentary purposes she has withdrawn her vote with the Labour Party which under Standing Order 144 and Standing Order 145 any member can do that and therefore she is no longer voting with the Labour Party and she can as any member can give her proxy vote to whomever she likes.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): Last question Mr Speaker if you'll indulge me—well it's two. Was that communication in writing and secondly was a letter—paper or electronic—sent to your office that was subsequently withdrawn?SPEAKER: I have received the letter—the email that I spoke about—asking for her vote to be withdrawn. That was received by email.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Can you please just clarify: do you regard Meka Whaitiri as being a member of the parliamentary Labour Party or not? Now I apologise if you feel you've addressed that but I think it would be helpful for everyone to understand what your position is on that question. And if the answer is no then I don't really see how a vacancy cannot be created. If you could just answer that question it would be very helpful to know.SPEAKER: It's really not for me to determine who is in which party. For whatever reason she has made that decision to write to me to withdraw her proxy is entirely up to her. That does not mean to say that I can interpret that she has left the Labour Party but this is for parliamentary purposes.CHRIS BISHOP (National): Point of order. Quite a lot flows from this Mr Speaker. In the interpretation of the allocation of supplementary questions and oral questions as part of the rota which is done proportionally will the Hon Meka Whaitiri be regarded as a Māori Party MP for the purposes of oral and supplementary questions and the general debate determination?SPEAKER: She'll be regarded as an Independent member for those purposes.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Speaking to that if she's regarded as an Independent member that can only come as an effect of her communications with you. And if she's given you a communication that can have that effect how can it possibly not also create a vacancy?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House): Speaking to the point of order. I'd just refer that member to what you did which is Standing Orders 144 and 145. Standing Orders there are with respect to votes that are held in this House. Communications about that are not the same as communications about the Electoral Act.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): Perhaps actually I should just preface my question with saying that these questions might go away if the communication was released. But my question is: given your answer—Hon Grant Robertson: You're questioning the Speaker.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: No and I have prefaced every single comment about that with a clarification that that's absolutely not what I'm doing. But Mr Speaker you have just said that Meka Whaitiri wishes to be recognised for parliamentary purposes as an Independent member of Parliament. And that can only happen if she has resigned from the parliamentary Labour Party and therefore it is I think worth considering whether it's here or somewhere else whether section 55B(c)(ii) has been met and if that was inside a communication to you and signed by the member I think there is still an open question about whether section 55A(2) has also been triggered.SPEAKER: The law as currently drafted allows no judgment at all to be exercised by the Speaker. A vacancy can only be declared if notice is given in a specific and correct way to the Speaker. That as I have said now three times has not happened.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Point of order Mr Speaker. SPEAKER: A new point of order? Hon Gerry Brownlee: Yeah. SPEAKER: The Hon Gerry Brownlee. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (National): Mr Speaker doesn't that raise the question of why you were able to make the judgment that the member is now an Independent? The two Standing Orders that were quoted by Mr Robertson relate to persons who have given their proxy or who are part of a caucus. Once you withdraw from a caucus—then if you are not able to make a judgment why are you able to stand in the House today and declare that Ms Whaitiri will be an Independent member? SPEAKER: I thank the member for his question. It's entirely up to the member themselves. As I've said already I'm not making a judgment on which party that the member is part of—that's not my role. As I said in previous rulings the Act is very clear and until I have got a letter stating that the member has resigned under that section then she is still a member of Parliament. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (National): Speaking to the point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you for that clarification sir. Then why are you able to make a determination that the allocation of parliamentary time will be removed from the Labour Party and given to the Independent member when that would seem to contravene all of the intentions of the two Standing Orders raised by Mr Robertson? SPEAKER: Regardless of the way that the Hon Meka Whaitiri has advised both the public the Labour Party or anyone else about anything that she's doing she has not notified me. So she can as a member of this House tell me that her proxy vote is not with the Labour Party now as I've said before and for parliamentary purposes that she is regarded as an Independent member of Parliament. CHRIS BISHOP (National): Point of order Mr Speaker. Well this is difficult because if she is regarded by you as an Independent member which you have said that she is she has fulfilled and she has told—like you can't regard her as an Independent member unless she has told you something. SPEAKER: Only for parliamentary purposes. CHRIS BISHOP: Well if she is regarded as an Independent member of Parliament and you've indicated that for the purposes of the allocation of supplementaries etc. she will be regarded as an Independent member of Parliament in a parliamentary sense she has fulfilled section 55B. She has notified you—by definition she must have notified you because you've just indicated you're regarding her as that. She has fulfilled section 55B which therefore triggers the rest of the Act and the seat is vacated. I'm struggling to see how you can regard her as an Independent member if for voting purposes and for proportionality purposes she is not regarded as a member of the Labour Party any more she can be an Independent member of Parliament in this House and that not trigger the Electoral Act. Parliament explicitly changed the law back in 2018 to make it so that in those circumstances those members of Parliament who do that who distort the proportionality of Parliament by leaving the political party with which they were elected—and leaving aside the merits of whether or not that was a good idea to do it or not the law is the law. DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Speaking to the point of order Mr Speaker. Would this whole matter not be so much simpler if you simply retracted your statement that she is an Independent member and instead said that she remains a member of the parliamentary Labour Party who has decided to have her proxy vote exercised independent of that party? Because it seems that otherwise we have a total contradiction.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House): Speaking to that point of order. Just on that very specific point it is a very longstanding convention that it is members of this House that decide their vote and members of this House as is covered by the Standing Orders we've been discussing before who can indicate at any given moment who is casting their vote. So the way round that the member put it would not be consistent with where we are. It is up to a member of Parliament to indicate that. I'm not going into the other bit but on that piece it would be that way round not the other way round.Hon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader—Green): Speaking to the point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you. I mean the confusion here I think is that when you look at the purpose of the bill it says that it provides for a member to vacate their seat in Parliament if they choose to give notice to the Speaker of their ceasing parliamentary membership of the party for which they were elected. So is it our understanding that she has not ceased to be a member of the parliamentary Labour Party but that she has withdrawn her vote from the parliamentary Labour Party? Is that what we're being told?SPEAKER: Yeah; there are several different issues going on and a lot of them are repeating or asking the same thing that I've already answered. For parliamentary purposes the Hon Meka Whaitiri being an Independent MP is a determination under the Standing Orders. She has not told me that she is an Independent MP but for the purposes of Parliament I have notified the House that she has asked me and informed me that she has withdrawn her proxy from the Labour Party and she wishes to sit somewhere else. That's it."