Collins Judith; Rurawhe AdrianHon JUDITH COLLINS (National—Papakura): The National Party opposes this bill. We oppose this bill because it has not been properly thought through. If I look at the regulatory impact statement it is very clear that there has been in the words written in the regulatory impact statement no consultation on the proposal [and] the full extent of impacts cannot be identified." but they do say in the statement that there are several risks. I know that Mr Twyford's contribution was somewhat—Hon Member: Muted.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Well I've got to say it was a bit muted but he seemed to constantly want to talk about me and I'd say to him that it's actually not all about me Mr Twyford. It's actually about the people of New Zealand. I suggest that he stops with the patronising "Cunliffean" speeches and gets back to what this is all about. Let's talk about property and landlords and tenants. We've got—[Interruption] Yeah on this side they're Churchillian but on that side it's "Cunliffean". Everyone knows that I'm very indulgent to Mr Twyford's flights of fancy but that's because I'm a kind-hearted person. Hon Phil Twyford: Stop stop—you're making it worse.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I'll drive him out of this House yet. This bill is well-meaning in its intent. The intention is to take away the stress and strain of having to pay a cost of letting fee which is essentially paid to a property manager to vet tenants to take tenants to the property to talk to them to work out who is the tenant best placed for this property and also to manage the property. The Labour Government in trying to do its best has said that that's now going to be free. It's going to be free to the tenant. We've heard from Mr Twyford today that it's not fair because the tenant shouldn't have to pay. The tenant will pay. The tenant will end up paying in terms of rent. It's all very well to say using a supermarket example "Well you don't ask people when they go into a supermarket to pay for the cost of selling them the goods." Well that's entirely wrong. Yes you do. When I go into a supermarket—and other people do too—when we do our shopping we're not just paying for the food. We're paying for the cost of storage. We're paying for the cost of people to work in that supermarket. We're paying for the cost of food that is spoilt. We're paying for the cost of every single thing. Hon Phil Twyford: Yeah but they don't charge you at the door. Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Mr Twyford is calling out to say "Well you don't charge for coming into the place." Well actually you do. It's just it's spread across the cost of all the goods in the store and that's the thing with this bill. Obviously if you're going to pay rental fees or leasing fees or management fees it's going to be a bit tough. It's going to be tough for some families and people who want to rent. But having said that if you are actually going to be a long-term tenant—and what we see now from the reports is that for most tenants now the average stay is two years. That is a significantly long time. If people are having to pay the cost and maybe a landlord is saying "Well maybe within the next six months or year I'll have to find a new tenant so I'll put that into the cost of the rent." and if someone actually stays the longest-term tenant is actually going to end up paying more because they're going to be paying this increased rent every single week or every fortnight depending on when they pay their rent. So it can actually end up with a worse outcome for tenants who are very stable who want to stay in a place—Hon Phil Twyford: That's illogical. Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Mr Twyford says it's illogical. Well it's not illogical because if a landlord puts a $10 increase on the rent when they come to rent out a property because they feel they've got to pay a manager to go round and check out all the tenants and everything else—a lot of people do ask for a manager to do it for the very good reason that they actually feel very uncomfortable often dealing with people and having to deal with all the issues and they don't like asking the questions. Lots of landlords are just mum and dad investors. They feel very nervous and very worried about having to deal directly with people's problems and they worry about getting it wrong. They also worry about getting the law wrong so they ask to get managers in to help them with it. The fact is that if you add $10 on here and add $10 there at the end of that year you know you've paid an extra $520. If you stay for two or three years that's basically added on every single week that you're paying and you end up paying more. So that's quite a perverse outcome. It's actually a perverse outcome because it means the most stable and the best tenants end up paying more than those who go in and out of different places. So I think it's sort of quite perverse frankly and that is something which I think is very unfortunate. Ultimately I would have thought most landlords want to have stable tenancies. They want to have tenants who do not trash their places. They want in addition to that tenants who are long-term tenants because the cost of dealing and the hassle of dealing with constantly changing tenants is really painful both for tenants and also for landlords. So although this is clearly well-meaning the one country that Mr Twyford wants to point to is Scotland. Now I'm not sure that Scotland's had quite the same increase in immigration that we've had or certainly decrease in emigration that New Zealand's had over the last few years and I think it's important to note that Scotland is not necessarily always going to be exactly the same as New Zealand. We certainly have quite a high rate of homeownership here compared to some parts of the United Kingdom and I would like to see us have more homeownership here and I think most people would see that. I'm very concerned to hear that this is just the start of significant changes to the Residential Tenancies Act which I can tell Mr Twyford and the Labour Party already causes a great deal of concern for mum and dad investors and landlords because they worry so much about how to deal with tenants who don't pay their rent and who trash the place. And to hear that tenants will be keeping dogs and other animals in their houses—I think you know it's quite important to understand it's not just the house that belongs to the landlord and there's the trashing of houses that happens with dogs and all these other animals but it's the fact that neighbours don't like this either. In my electorate in Papakura we have a lot of State tenants and State housing. Most of those people are very good tenants who do their very best and they're excellent—they're excellent—and actually there are other people who aren't who breach their tenancy arrangements and who keep not just a little dog or a dog but actually keep massive pit bulls. They have gang members there and they drive their neighbours to distraction threaten them and everything else. And it's all very well for Mr Twyford to say "We should still have to house them somewhere." but actually think about the tenant's neighbours who have to then put up with pit bull terriers ripping at their kids. We have this time and time again. So when you actually think about this most tenants want their neighbouring tenants to live their lives in a decent and calm way and not attack them scream and shout and have parties all the time but that would be the number one complaint that we get in our office. It is about some of the behaviour of the neighbours of people who live in large State housing areas. That is the responsibility of the Hon Phil Twyford and what he's proposing today is—this bill's actually just about prohibiting letting fees. But he has now signalled he's going to make it easier for these people who are not decent neighbours to their neighbouring tenants who should be able to expect from the landlord a decent neighbour who is not going to attack them. Hon Phil Twyford: Are you talking about all renters? Hon JUDITH COLLINS: I think it is—actually well Mr Twyford's saying I'm talking about all renters. I'm actually talking about the good people who rent properties from him and his organisation who expect that he will make sure that they are safe and that they don't have to fear their neighbour because that's the number one issue we get. It is around the behaviour of one or two people in a street who destroy it for every other tenant. He thinks that's funny but actually I don't because I represent an area where we care. ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Adrian Rurawhe): Order! The member's time has expired. Can I remind members about the use of the personal pronoun "you"—both sides. That brings the Speaker into the debate. Please be careful."