English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:609;Page:6551] 
4.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have confidence in her Associate Minister of Justice the Hon Margaret Wilson; if so why? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes because she is a hard-working and conscientious Minister. 
Hon Bill English 
: Following answers given by the Associate Minister yesterday and in public statements she has made what matters does the Prime Minister believe the Government will negotiate with Maori over seabed and foreshore claims given the Government’s position that it and it alone has title to the seabed and foreshore? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government will act to uphold rights of public access to and use of the foreshore and seabed. It will also act to ensure that the customary rights of Maori are upheld. We are looking for a win-win solution where both sides feel that justice has been done. 
Hon Bill English 
: What does the Prime Minister believe are the customary rights of Maori in respect of the seabed and the foreshore? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is not an issue of what the Prime Minister believes. The issue is that the concept of customary land up until the Court of Appeal decision was held to apply only to what we understand to be land. The Court of Appeal has extended that understanding through its five decisions. 
Hon Bill English 
: Answer the question! 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: If the member would listen he would know he is getting a detailed and proper answer. The Court of Appeal has extended that understanding of land to encompass foreshore and seabed. When the Maori Land Court determines that land is customary land a process may then ensue that can see customary land transferred to title of Maori freehold land and then to general title at which point an exclusive property right has been created. That is the situation the Government now wishes to work through. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Prime Minister read Judge Hingston’s decision which is a Maori Land Court decision and does she not understand what he means when he states that customary title was never extinguished and will she therefore now affirm her position as to whether the Crown owns the seabed and foreshore? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I have not read Judge Hingston’s 1993 decision. I have been focusing on the implications of the Court of Appeal decision in respect of what is land and what is not. That is what makes it unclear exactly what the status of foreshore and seabed is. 
Stephen Franks 
: Does she now resile from the Attorney-General’s guarantee to this House yesterday that all New Zealanders are to enjoy equal access to beaches and seabeds without privilege or discrimination on the basis of ethnic inheritance; if not what exactly is the Attorney-General authorised to trade away to Maori by way of customary rights? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Attorney-General expressed the Government’s desire to uphold the traditional rights of access and use in the foreshore and seabed area. She also expressed the Government’s strong desire to uphold Maori customary rights. What we are working on is how to reconcile the two—and the law frankly is not clear in that area. I might say that in principle—and I am sure the member would agree with me—it is better to have Parliament-made law than judge-made law. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: With regard to the answer the Prime Minister has just given is she confident that what she referred to as the twin desires can in fact be accommodated in the legislation that is being foreshadowed in such a way that for most New Zealanders there will be an unequivocal expression of the fact that they will continue to enjoy the rights of access and usage that they have traditionally felt were theirs to enjoy? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: With goodwill between what are two treaty partners I believe we can achieve that. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is it still the Government’s position that it will bring in legislation to prevent Maori from pursuing claims for customary title thereby extinguishing any customary title; and if that is still the Government’s position why does the Minister of Maori Affairs believe otherwise? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government has not said it is bringing in law to extinguish customary title. What the Government is talking about is reconciling the right of public access to and use of the foreshore with Maori customary rights. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Prime Minister stand by her statement that Maori would still be able to pursue claims about customary use though not customary title and is she now saying that that does not amount to legislation extinguishing customary title? What a ridiculous position! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The last comment is out of order. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What is in the province of the Maori Land Court is to determine customary use and then to designate land as customary land. It is not clear what customary title is and that is one of the things to be explored. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I seek leave—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will be heard in silence. The member who interjected will withdraw and apologise for the comment he made while a member was speaking. 
Hon Bill English 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I seek leave of the House to table the  
Morning Report 
 interview with the Attorney-General in which she said it was the intention to advance legislation that would clarify that the Crown had title to the seabed and foreshore. 
Document not tabled.