English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:633;Page:5120] 
10.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What proportion of students leaving school in 2005 left without a qualification? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 Under the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) students leave school with a Record of Learning that shows how many credits they have attained. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Answer the question! 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: How long was the member deputy leader? I cannot remember. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister please answer the question. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I will start again. Under NCEA students leave school with a Record of Learning which shows how many credits they have attained. Students who gain 13 or fewer credits at any level are recorded as having little or no attainment. This figure was 13 percent for 2005. Above that we record what students have attained. For example in 2005 67 percent of school-leavers achieved beyond level 1 in NCEA. As much as it is possible to make a direct comparison in 1984 43 percent of students left school with School Certificate. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why did the Minister issue figures last week claiming that only 13 percent of students leave school without a qualification—with his definition of a qualification being students who earn 13 or more NCEA credits—when in fact students need 80 credits to gain even the most basic school qualification being NCEA level 1; and were not his claims misleading? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I understand it last week the Ministry of Education released information on attainment at school. I thought it might be useful to explain to the member that under NCEA students get a record of attainment—that is the number of credits are stacked up and they are on their Record of Learning. Under NCEA they do not get a qualification like School Certificate; they get a Record of Learning 
. 
Moana Mackey 
: What improvements were evident in the 2005 school-leaver statistics? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The figures show students are attaining higher levels of achievement. A third of students are leaving school now with a university entrance qualification in the sense that they have the number of credits needed to go to university. More are staying until year 13. As I said before 67 percent of school-leavers are achieving beyond level 1 which is great. One of the good advantages of NCEA is that those leaving with partial attainment or lower levels of attainment can use those credits to build a qualification through for example an apprenticeship or polytechnic course because their Record of Learning shows what they have achieved. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that the true picture is this: 27 percent or over 16000 school-leavers each year leave school with no formal qualification because they did not achieve NCEA level 1; and why did he issue figures showing quite a different picture? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I cannot say that. What I have to say to the member is that the way in which NCEA works is that students get a Record of Learning of what they attain. That is what they get. The member is stuck in the 1990s. I know that he favours School Certificate but that is not how it works any more. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why does the Minister continue to try to hide failure by removing from students’ Record of Learning any record of failure and by now counting as students with a qualification students who achieved one-sixth—that is 13—of the 80 credits required to get any kind of formal qualification; and does he not think that it misleads students to tell them that if they get 13 level 1 credits they have any choice at all in life? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: What students get is an accurate record of what they attain. For example if they get 13 credits they are told that they have achieved little or nothing. Above that they are told what they achieve. I know that the member would like to have School Certificate back but this system tells students what they get rather than being the kind of pass/fail system we had before. And no I do not hide failure; I constantly tell people about the National Party. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That was not necessary. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why is the Minister telling the public of New Zealand that 16-year-old students with 13 level 1 credits which is less than someone can get from one weekend’s outdoor education have a school qualification when they need 80 credits to get a school qualification—and why does the Minister not sit down until the question has been asked? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well— 
Hon Member 
: Well we thought it had finished. 
Hon Bill English 
: Point of order— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Yes I agree. Some of the questions get longer as some of the answers do. Would the member please ask the question. 
Hon Bill English 
: I will ask the short version OK. Why is the Minister telling the New Zealand public that—even though students need 80 credits to get the most basic school qualification—if students get 13 credits they have a qualification? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The Ministry of Education released the figures the member is referring to and the ministry would record that students who got 13 credits got little or no qualification. “Little or no qualification” is what those students would be told. Above that they would be told what they attained. The member insists on superimposing School Certificate on NCEA because he likes norm-referenced learning but he should get used to the notion that NCEA is the way we do things now and he should keep up with the programme.