Benson-Pope David: General Debates 
Benson-Pope David: General Debates 
[Volume:606;Page:3571] 
DAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour—Dunedin South) 
: 
 I cannot imagine that the House could have had a much better demonstration of just why the Opposition is so fragmented failing and flailing about. I do not know whether the member is aware of this yet but I have some not bad news for the previous speaker Mr Brownlee in the form of the www.stuff.co.nz website poll results published recently in answer to the question of who should be the National Party’s leader. Bill English came in with 56 percent and probably to Mr Brownlee’s surprise he followed closely behind rising quickly on 43 percent. That is quite a surprising result.  
First of all I would like to focus on the extraordinary charade that we have seen played out in this House over the last few days. Those self-appointed perk-busters the ACT party members suspended one of their members—not expelled—in quite a blatant cynical and obviously carefully considered manipulation of the Standing Orders. They made their decision so that they could hold on to $111000 of public funding. Not only did they ensure that that MP whom the Speaker ruled to be an ACT MP would keep her $90000 salary but ACT just happened not to lose—because of the decision made by that self-appointed master of the Standing Orders Richard Prebble—$111000 of public funding. What a party of principle that is—Richard Prebble pretending suspension is a great act of righteousness!  
Just as disgraceful is the extraordinary performance that we saw in the House last week from Dr Nick Smith. We heard the ridiculous allegations he made about apartheid in the Christchurch childcare centre—the result of playground requirements that were rules gazetted while that member was the Minister. Why would any member—even one who is known for making ridiculous reckless and unfounded claims such as his great Meridian rug scam and who as the then Minister banned Department of Conservation staff from talking to the then Leader of the Opposition—who is as unstable as that make such ridiculous and fanciful claims about apartheid? It is for the same reason that a 15-minute personal explanation was all typed up ready to go last week. It was all a smokescreen to try to divert public attention from that member’s involvement in the Huata - Pipi Foundation saga.  
Nick Smith and the National Party are up to their necks in that little scam. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member on his feet has just made an absolutely scurrilous allegation. There is no basis to that allegation. That matter has been dealt with appropriately. The member is right out of order in going down the line that he is. I will use the strong words of saying that we demand he withdraw and apologise. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the honourable member for bringing that to my attention. Under Standing Order 117 that was a personal reflection. The member will stand withdraw and apologise. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I withdraw and apologise. Clearly it was not just Alamein Kopu who was tucked up in her comfy office. I would like Mr Smith to come to this House to explain quite clearly where the Ministry of Education report was that recommended that funding. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Last week I made a personal explanation and gave a response on that specific point. The answer was that Mr Trevor Mallard refuses me access to any of my files from that period. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: A personal explanation cannot be questioned but different points about the issue raised in it can be. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Mr David Benson-Pope challenged me to table the papers and the reports from the Ministry of Education. I seek leave of the House to table the letter from the Minister of Education Mr Trevor Mallard that denies me access to any of my files from that time. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: It will be clear as this matter unfolds that the ministry made no recommendation to support funding for that reading programme and that that decision was made solely on the decision of the Minister at the time Mr Nick Smith. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Jill Pettis 
: They are sensitive! 
Gerry Brownlee 
: No we are quite happy to have this matter debated but it would only be fair—since Mr Benson-Pope has now claimed in the House that he knows what is in those papers—that the papers are most certainly made available at least to Dr Smith and probably to the whole House. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: That is not a point of order. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Why would that distinguished politician make such extraordinary statements about a fabrication of his own concerning apartheid in a childcare centre if it had not been anything other than an absolute smokescreen to detract attention from his own activities? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In the context of this speech you need to explain to us the difference between the allegation of a fabrication and the allegation of a lie. This particular member is driving down a line that is difficult to deal with because the Minister is not prepared to release the papers that he rightly should. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I remind members that there is nothing wrong with full vigorous and passionate debate and that is what is going on at present. It is in order and I so rule. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: The public will make its own judgment— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is a very specific point: is it appropriate for a member to say that I “fabricated”? “Fabrication” suggests that I misled the House. That is outside the Standing Orders and that was the specific allegation that Mr Benson-Pope made. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I refer members to Standing Order 117 which addresses situations where a member takes issue with what has been said and sees it as a personal reflection—and the Hon Nick Smith has done so. I ask the member to desist from making those remarks and to continue with his speech. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I will close by quoting the words— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Of late there have been a number of rulings that constrain healthy debate in this Parliament. If you are to rule the word “fabrication” out then the building industry will find that very difficult for a start. It has been engaged in that for the last 100 years or more. In fact most educational institutions know about prefabrications later fabrications and defabrications. At the risk of breaking up Mr Benson-Pope’s speech at the end of the day it comes down to this: surely robust debate is acceptable. If you are to rule out sensible words that might have an ulterior construction I admit then you will constrain debate in this House. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the right honourable member for his point of view. Under Standing Order 117 I am not actually ruling the words out but exception has been taken by the Hon Dr Nick Smith to the use of those words. As the presiding officer I have to administer the Standing Orders as they have been crafted for well over 100 years in this Parliament. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I would like to close with some recent comments made by former Cabinet Minister Max Bradford. He said: “The trouble with the National Party at the moment is that it’s all very well to talk about the principles and the values which we can agree with but when you pick up the newspaper or listen to the leader or a number of the spokespeople particularly the bratpack talking about the individual approaches to various things then there’s no connect. I mean you listen to Nick Smith talk about education and God forbid he sounds more like an Alliance member.” A further party insider is even blunter: “They are not going to get anywhere until they get rid of their leader their deputy and the bratpack and McCully. The media have got them typecast now. The message I am getting from people is that the National Party has largely become irrelevant and the senior people for example the leader and the deputy are still in denial.” For goodness’ sake National members should do themselves a favour and get it over with. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek leave of the House to table my estimate of how much the Alliance was able to suck out of the taxpayer subsequent to its breakdown largely because Helen Clark changed the rules and gave an interpretation of the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Act that saw the absolute debacle and disgrace that existed last time round. I believe it was well in excess of $4 million or $5 million all because Helen Clark changed the rules. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is objection. 
DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I seek leave to table the www.stuff.co.nz website opinion poll that I referred to commenting on the question of who should be the National Party’s leader. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is objection.