8. Question No. 8—Tertiary Education and SkillsHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and SkillsQuestion No. 8—Tertiary Education and Skills8. Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: What actions if any has she taken to disestablish Te Pūkenga?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills): I thank the member for her question. I have sent a new letter of expectation in December 2023 setting out my desire that Te Pūkenga cease its centralisation programme of work and focus on achieving greater regional decision making. I briefed Cabinet in February about the issues in the sector with the result that Cabinet agrees that we take decisions to disestablish Te Pūkenga and consult on a proposed replacement model this quarter as outlined in the Prime Minister's action plan. I have commissioned from officials design options and a legislative framework for a new system to put into consultation later in the year. I have met with my ministerial colleagues as recently as Monday this week to discuss my approach and I have met with industry—again as recently as this morning I was at Hutt Gas & Plumbing who have 12 apprentices. As a result of my expectations Te Pūkenga have started several actions in response to the Government's stated direction. They are decentralising operations they have put in place regional leaders and delegated more decision making to the regions they have begun to reduce the size of head office and returned staff to their regions and they have begun removing Te Pūkenga branding.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Is one of the meetings she referred to in response to oral question No. 8 on 19 December 2023 the meeting that an attendee described to Newshub as a total s**tshow"?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: As I said I've had a range of meetings. I have had meetings with industry. I have had meetings with colleagues. I have had meetings with polytechnics. I have had meetings with community leaders. In fact I was in Whangārei recently where I met with the mayors iwi chambers of commerce and industry and businesses from that area.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Point of order. It was a very specific question about a particular meeting—as to whether or not it was an "s**tshow" as described by Newshub. So it was a very specific question and I wonder if she could address it—it needs a yes or no answer really.SPEAKER: I'm sorry; the question that was asked was not at all specific in my opinion and the answer that was given was satisfactory—beyond satisfactory—for addressing the question.Hon Chris Bishop: Does she agree that the Te Pūkenga model set up by the previous Government is in fact an "s**t show"?SPEAKER: I think given my response to Dr Russell's point of order you'll understand why that question is completely out of order.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: At the meeting referred to in response to oral question No. 8 on 19 December 2023 with the CEO and the chair of Te Pūkenga did she direct the then CEO of Te Pūkenga to cease the restructuring of vocational education?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I stand my all my interactions and correspondence with Mr Strong. Te Pūkenga were not meeting milestones. They had student numbers declining they had staff leaving and they did not have a credible pathway back to being financially viable.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Again it was a very specific question. I referred to a particular meeting that the Minister herself referred to in oral questions and I asked whether it was at that meeting that she directed the CEO of Te Pūkenga to cease the restructuring of vocational education.SPEAKER: Well for a start the question's got an imputation in it which you can't make. So the question itself was on the edge of being rejected. I'm not wanting to get down the tight lines of how we could go if we kept getting upset about questions and answers but what I would say is that when the Minister replied that she stood by all she had said at meetings that is certainly addressing the question.Hon David Parker: Point of order Mr Speaker. Two points: with respect I think the imputation was in the prior supplementary not in that one; and in respect of the question itself the purpose of the question was to elucidate whether she asked them to cease work on the restructure. A general statement as to whether that person stands by all her statements gives the House no information whatsoever as to whether or not that instruction was given.SPEAKER: Well perhaps if the question itself had been as simply put as you just suggested—Hon David Parker: Well it was.SPEAKER: It was not. And I'd suggest you read the Hansard afterwards. It was not. And if it had been then there might have been a different response.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: May I ask the question again?SPEAKER: Well yeah all right.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Thank you Mr Speaker. At her initial meeting with the CEO and the chair of Te Pūkenga did she direct the then CEO of Te Pūkenga to cease the restructuring of vocational education?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I had a meeting where there were interactions with both the chair and the CE and TC who were also there and I followed up a few days later with a new letter of expectations to Te Pūkenga.Hon Nicola Willis: Is it her view that Te Pūkenga has lived up to the wild aspirations that were held for it as a transformative initiative or is it more likely that it has missed all of its key milestones and is another episode of centralisation that has failed?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Certainly it has left a legacy in the vocational education sector that is a disaster with student numbers falling financials getting worse staff leaving and generally industry feeling that they are not being supported in supplying a workforce.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: What plans if any has the Minister made for a new structure for vocational education in New Zealand?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I am committed to take decisions to disestablish Te Pūkenga and consult on a proposed replacement model this quarter as outlined in the Prime Minister's action plan for New Zealand.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: When will she advise kaimahi ākonga industry leaders employers and other stakeholders of her plans if any for the vocational education sector?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Well as noted I will be taking decisions about Te Pūkenga and the replacement for that this quarter as outlined by the Prime Minister's action plan for New Zealand at which time we will consult even further with industry on top of the consultation that has occurred now.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Is it the case that she simply doesn't have a clue what she is going to do in the vocational education sector?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Not at all. I can assure the member that I have very many clues about what we need to do to get rid of the disaster that is Te Pūkenga."