Lotu-Iiga Sam: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — First ReadingText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLotu-Iiga Sam: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — First Reading[Sitting date: 27 August 2013. Volume:693;Page:13122. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie): Talofa lava and good afternoon to you and all those across the country who are listening in on this debate orwatching it on TV. It is a pleasure to take a call on the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. The last member Jacinda Ardern might have used a lot of superlatives but she did not actually talk much about the bill. The bill puts in place new tools to prevent detect and catch welfare fraud. That is what we are talking about here today. It is not about business fraud it is not about tax fraud; it is about welfare fraud. I want to thank the Associate Minister for Social Development the Hon Chester Borrows for the hard work that he has done on this bill along with the officials to bring about a bill that I think is measured informative and certainly will be workable going forward. As the chair of the Social Services Committee I look forward to debating and examining some of the issues that are within this bill and hearing from submitters from around the country about what they see as legitimate in terms of prosecuting and enforcing welfare fraud.The Ministry of Social Development is owed a significant amount of money—a significant amount of money—from fraud-related debt overpayments and recoverable assistance. This is $128 million on convicted fraud alone—$128 million. So I think we have to take this issue seriously. I know Ms Ardern mentioned that it should be even-handed and that we should look at comparisons between the various pieces of legislation but one of the issues that she did not raise is that recent High Court decisions have questioned how the Ministry of Social Development applies discretion to recover welfare debts. Those decisions have created uncertainty about its powers and duties when recovering welfare debt. This bill addresses that. Our Government has decided to act and I encourage parties across this House and I encourage all New Zealanders to get behind the bill because the bill addresses the effect that those High Court decisions have on the ability of the ministry to prosecute fraud.This bill amends the Social Security Act so that it imposes a duty on the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonable practicable steps to recover debt. I think that is reasonable and I believe most New Zealanders would say it is reasonable. Secondly the ministry has the discretion to determine case by case the method and the rate of recovery. Again it is quite objective and I believe quite simplistic and realistic in terms of what we are trying to achieve. In exceptional circumstances the ministry may defer temporarily that recovery of debt so it has a social and empathetic element to it. The Minister is required to issue directions identifying those exceptional circumstances in which recovery may be deferred. But the bill also identifies as the Minister has pointed out the considerations to which the ministry must have regard in setting the rate and methods of recovery for those debts and that is really important.We know that the vast majority of beneficiaries are honest and do the right thing and I do not think anyone has mentioned that in the House today. The vast majority of beneficiaries actually have needs and have those needs met but a small minority take advantage of the system. The Associate Minister has outlined the elements of the relationship fraud which is a big part of that. Welfare fraud is a crime welfare fraud is committed by criminals and welfare fraud is done for their own benefit against the wishes and needs of New Zealanders so we treat this fraud as a crime without excuses. The bill introduces a new criminal offence for spouses and partners who benefit from welfare fraud. Those spouses must know or are reckless as to whether those payments are obtained by fraud. I put it to the member opposite Jacinda Ardern—I know she is not present in the Chamber—The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson): Order! The member will be seated. It is not proper that members refer to the absence of another because in this place all of us at one time or another have to leave the Chamber for whatever reason. That is out of order.Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA: We know that the evidentiary burden is a high-threshold test. She stated in this House that it is low; I beg to differ. I beg to differ because it requires amensrea—a criminal mind—and the evidentiary burden is clear. They need to know or ought to have known. I do not believe that is unreasonable in the circumstances because an objective set of facts can be presented where you can assess whether that person ought to have known that the fraud had been committed. Partners could face a fine of up to $5000 or 12 months in jail. We will debate whether that sentence is appropriate but I think that in the circumstances that is reasonable.In 2013 relationship offending cost the taxpayer $26 million. That $26 million could have been spent on our most vulnerable families who are in genuine need of assistance. It is important that the public has every confidence in the welfare system and these measures will give the ministry the tools to achieve this.I conclude by saying that welfare will always be there to support people who are in need in our communities. That is a basic tenet of our nation’s social fabric. Equally anyone who can work should be in work or looking for a job should do so. Our reform of the welfare system in the last 2 years will bring into the 21st century what we believe has been an outdated system. Labour—Ms Ardern and her mates—might have turned a blind eye to fraud in welfare but National has promised to clamp down on welfare fraud and with this bill we are delivering on that promise.