Smith StuartSTUART SMITH (National—Kaikōura): Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker and congratulations on attaining the position. The way you handled that situation earlier I can see you're going to do a great job. I think it's an interesting bill that we are debating tonight the Rates Rebate (Retirement Village Residents) Amendment Bill and as the previous speaker Jo Luxton said we do have an ageing population—there's no doubt about that. I think if we look certainly across my electorate there's a range of retirement villages from Amberley all the way through to Picton and they vary in size from small privately-owned retirement villages to the larger corporate villages. It's a variety of incomes that people are on or financial backgrounds—or positions at least—that these people come from who are residents in those villages. In Marlborough 22 percent of the population are over 65 so it's quite a significant issue in that area—Chris Bishop: How much?STUART SMITH: Twenty-two percent. I think it's one of the highest in the country. And to actually explain the situation we've got a great place to live. We've got wineries the most sunshine hours in the country—what's not to like? That's why people want to go and live there. The Marlborough Sounds are on your doorstep and if you're in a retirement village living in Marlborough you can access those things.So going back to the bill there were 34 submissions. Actually I have a very important question: why if this bill is so important isn't it a Government bill? I mean why isn't it a Government bill? If the Government is not—is it overwhelmed with legislation of its own on the Order Paper? I don't think so. So I don't understand why it's not. It really surprises me that it's not if it's such a worthy bill. Thirty-four submissions as has been said earlier. [Interruption]The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams): Order! Order! [Interruption] Order members!STUART SMITH: Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker. I seem to have that effect on members on the other side at the moment and I'm taking that as a compliment actually. There were 34 submissions—eight oral submissions—eight of which called for amendments on the commencement date and also on a definition of ratepayers in the Local Government (Rating) Act of 2002. A third of the submissions also asked the committee to consider the administrative effect of the bill. I think that's quite important. I've been on the select committee for three years now—not this particular select committee but other select committees—and I've never heard that from submitters. I'm not sure what other members' experience is—I've never heard that. I think that is quite telling. The officials advised of course as we've heard that the bill would not achieve its purpose. The Parliamentary Counsel Office counselled against the bill proceeding in its form.The Hon Tracey Martin is someone who I respect and I think she should reflect on the statement she made earlier that actually called into question the professionalism of the Public Service and their independence because I think they do a good job. Their job and their role is to make sure that legislation comes to this House in a form that will work for New Zealand and New Zealanders and quite clearly they did not believe that was the case with this legislation.The member in charge of the bill—they sought two extensions. The first one was granted for about two months. The second extension application was blocked because the member in charge of the bill opposed it so the bill has come back not fit for the purpose that it seeks to be. [Interruption] In fact there was one statement that the risk—Chris Bishop: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The member who made that remark knows it is unparliamentary. She is not allowed to refer to members in that capacity in that way and she should withdraw and apologise.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams): The Hon Ruth Dyson—I require you to withdraw and apologise.Hon Ruth Dyson: I withdraw and apologise.Hon Iain Lees-Galloway: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Could we just clarify to the House that the word slug" is now unparliamentary?The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams): I think the member will know that the ruling is that what is or isn't unparliamentary is at the discretion of the Speaker and I've made the ruling accordingly.STUART SMITH: Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker. I do answer to most things actually. The risk of unintended consequences of this bill was also pointed out in the official report. These are pretty strong words from officials who are impartial and who are experts in this bill.So what are the facts and what is this bill trying to achieve? The rates rebate scheme as has been mentioned was introduced in 1973 and I agree it probably is well overdue for a review. But since then the licence to occupy has proliferated throughout New Zealand and in fact 80 percent of people living in retirement villages are living so under a licence to occupy. This is the issue that is causing the problem. It's not about councils getting around it; it's about the legal structures in which people live. But I'll come to that later.So the rates payments rest with the owner and operator of the village in a licence to occupy situation—that the person in there is actually who is liable to pay the rates. So that is where the problem lies. The rates rebate is based on income the level of rates and the number of dependants. It is $610 and it's an income threshold of $24470. Whilst it's to be applauded the work of the advisers it's difficult for a number of reasons which I want to touch on now.The arrangements relating to how properties are owned or occupied in retirement villages—there's terms of freehold title leasehold title cross-lease title and unit title. In the unit title case those people will actually get a rates bill anyway so they'll be a ratepayer. Licence to occupy—as I've already mentioned that's 80 percent of people occupying retirement villages at the moment and residential tenancy.In order to get a rebate the person must be a ratepayer and the ratepayer in relation to the property. That's not possible under this legislation. Also under the Local Government Act they have to be named in the rating information database and they have to be on the district valuation roll. If you have a licence to occupy you will not be on either of those so you won't qualify there.A second issue that we have is to ascertain what the rates are and apportioned to the units. As was pointed out in a very good speech by Mr Brett Hudson this is actually more complex and has been characterised—[Interruption] Despite one of the members across the way it is really complex and we've heard that from officials and from those people operating in that field.Rates can be held in three ways. There can be a rate on the land a charge for the water and waste water and a regional council rate as well. [Bell rung] Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker. I'm confused by the clock I have to say. I'm not confused enough to be a part of that side that's for sure.As I wind down it is a huge cost administratively to administer this bill. It raises issues of privacy of financial information for those people occupying the retirement villages. There could be a situation where the operator of the village in question could pay their fees on the village. So I think that's quite a significant cost. Also often when these licences to occupy are signed people agree on a fee that they're paying over a number of years. Rates will change during that period. How do you apportion that? That is quite legally difficult.Yes there's $56 million in the cost of the rebate scheme. What we're talking about here is about 10 percent of that and it's difficult if you're in that 10 percent I accept but however it is none the less really very difficult for this to go in. It's a flawed piece of legislation not just in my view but in the officials' view who looked at this very hard. I applaud the member for her attempt. However it really isn't good enough. It just simply won't work and therefore with regret I oppose the bill. Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker."