Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:636;Page:6922] 
7.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have any concerns about the security of Ministers’ computer systems; if not why not? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister) 
: 
 on behalf of the 
 Prime Minister 
: I have no specific concerns. I am advised that the security systems employed by the contractor responsible for the system are kept up to the appropriate industry standards and there is no evidence of serious security breaches. 
Rodney Hide 
: How can she have any confidence in the computer systems when clearly a secret espionage operation has been successfully directed for some years against the leader of the National Party National MPs and their parliamentary staff? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The Prime Minister has no responsibility for the Parliamentary Service only for Ministerial Services. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Indeed; to add to that point the Ministerial Services’ system is a separate system from the Parliamentary Service’s system. 
Hon Bill English 
: Have Ministers sought assurances from him about the security of the ministerial email system and is he satisfied that its standards are matched by those of the parliamentary email system? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I cannot comment about the parliamentary email system. The ministerial system is managed by Unysis New Zealand Ltd and has a variety of security measures. I do not know who runs the parliamentary system or how that would compare with the ministerial system. 
Rodney Hide 
: What assurance can the Prime Minister give to the people of New Zealand that Government offices and computers are safe and secure from secret and malevolent spying by anonymous forces whose motives remain hidden—as indeed has happened to the National Party through the Parliamentary Service system? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The member is making an assertion in his last comment and I have no idea whether there is any truth in it. Many other rumours have run around this place— 
Hon Bill English 
: The Prime Minister seems to know. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Well I think one was that I have managed to hack but anybody who knows my manner of success— 
Hon Members 
: Ha ha! 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Thank you colleagues! I think they are commenting on my capacity to engage in that kind of activity. Clearly one cannot give a 100 percent assurance in these matters at all but security systems on the ministerial system are kept up to date on a daily basis. There have certainly been incidents of people trying to hack into the system. These have been identified and specific blocks put in place. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: In the search for hackers snoopers conspirators and agents provocateurs has she read the quote from Dr Brash that states: “I have no doubt whatsoever that this information has been obtained by criminal activity by half a dozen or so of National Party people very close to my office”; and does this not prove that the suggestion that hackers from outside the complex have unlawfully gained access to emails inside the complex— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: You’ve got them! You know. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Oh yeah—your mates. I’ll tell the member who it is—right amongst his mates— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister please just ask his question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I start again Madam Speaker because I have lost the plot here? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No I think we got the gist of the first bit. Just complete it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Madam Speaker— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Has the member finished asking his question? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No I have not. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: OK please continue. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Dr Brash said—and I quote him: “I have no doubt whatsoever that this information has been obtained by criminal activity by half a dozen or so”— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Why don’t you tell the police what you know? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: —and we are hearing from one of them over there now— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Why don’t you tell the police what you know? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well why would the police be looking for something that Don Brash knows about? 
Hon Member 
: No no. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: —oh yes you do—“very close to my office” and does this not prove that the suggestion that hackers from outside the complex have unlawfully gained access to emails inside the complex is at least a tad far-fetched? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. You cannot possibly accept that question because the question asked by Mr Hide relates to the Prime Minister and the Ministerial Services. Mr Peters is relying heavily on the absolute tripe written in  
The Hollow Men 
 a copy of which is being waved around by Judith Tizard. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No no. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Oh yes it is. I think Madam Speaker that to try to say that this question allows Mr Peters to run off and take some misquote from Dr Brash and go down this road is wrong. The onus is on Mr Peters actually as someone who knows where the emails came from to go to the police and to tell them. But he will not because he is frightened. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Surely the intent of this question is to ensure that MPs parliamentary leaders and Ministers—and indeed the Prime Minister—have security of communication. Surely that was the intent of the original question. That being the case I am quoting from the leader of the National Party last week and this is his statement. I will table the document if the MP from Auckland who is making a lot of noise but who has been demoted in the space of 12 months in a career wants to keep on arguing it. All I am saying is that if Dr Brash knows then perhaps he can help the Prime Minister in the answer. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The question was in order but in replying the Minister has to be careful about ministerial responsibility—it did ask for reports. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I have indeed seen the report that Dr Brash made that statement. I have to say from a Labour Party perspective one certainly would not find six senior members of the Labour Party who would open their hearts up to Mr Hager and I am surprised that there are six National Party MPs who did so. 
Rodney Hide 
: What action if any has she taken to ensure the security of email systems in ministerial offices and indeed in Parliament or is spying OK as long as it is directed at the National Party? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am not sure what the last bit is meant to imply because as I said the ministerial system is quite separate from the parliamentary system. Certainly in respect of the ministerial system there are firewalls designed to detect any unusual activity and these are monitored regularly so that any unusual activity should be noticed. But as in the case of any such system there cannot be 100 percent certainty. I do not know whether the parliamentary system has similar kinds of firewalls in place. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Does this not raise the interesting question of how parties like New Zealand First or United Future get on because they have— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Very well. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: If there are any more interruptions the members will be out. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I have no doubt that they get on well with each other but the voters—hmm it is not good at the moment. I would just point out that those parties have Ministers who are part of Cabinet so they must be part of the ministerial system. Yet those parties’ own members are I presume still part of the parliamentary system. So where are the points of integration and how secure is that? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well I am not sure what the member’s point is but there are two systems and they— 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It is exactly the same as any party in Government. For instance Labour Party back-benchers are on the parliamentary system and Labour Party Ministers are on the ministerial system. That member will always be on the parliamentary system. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I ask you again please as a member from one of the alternative parties. That was another gross example—and it was obvious once the member had got into the first sentence—of Mr Brownlee abusing the point of order process and the Standing Orders. I understand that I cannot interject when a point of order is being made but when it is so clearly obviously and patently not a point of order but simply the member taking an opportunity to slag bag and take political point-scoring opportunities what protection do we have? We either interject and make the point and get thrown out of the House or we sit here and rely on you as the Speaker to deal with Mr Brownlee. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well I dealt with Mr Brownlee but sometimes it is always important as you well know to wait until the member has completed his thought. Sometimes members take longer than others to complete a thought. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table a  
Sunday News 
 26 November article headlined “Brash blames party over leaked emails”. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.