Little AndrewHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice): Thank you Madam Chair. It's a great pleasure to take a call on this bill the Psychoactive Substances (Increasing Penalty for Supply and Distribution) Amendment Bill. I thank the member in the chair for his intervention just now which has been very helpful because I think what he does is illustrate the point that this bill represents which is it is less about the specifics of psychoactive substances even though that's in the title of the bill but it goes to an underlying kind of policy presumption about penalties for drug possession and drug peddling. It is for this reason that I think the title of the bill is totally misnamed.What it does do is completely avoid the issue. It avoids the real issue of psychoactive substance use other illicit substance use that has a psychoactive effect or some other kind of mind-altering effect. It is avoiding the issue—I would name it the Psychoactive Substances (Avoiding the Real Issue) Bill" or "Psychoactive Substances (Total Cop-out) Bill" because that's what this does. So let's have a look at the issue. The issue is that a bunch of people disengaged not connected with many of the social institutions and social behaviours that the rest of us would expect whose lives are often in crisis lives are often in desperation they are—even some people with their lives reasonably in control—looking for a way out looking for what they consider is a temporary high a bit of fun somewhere to let themselves go. That's why people use substances like this.What underlies that is a set of problems they've got. The threat of more penalties the threat of longer in prison is not an answer to them. It doesn't register. It doesn't matter. The significance of the member in the chair's last intervention is this. Let's take an analogy. Let's take one of the most common illicit substances abused and causing people to go into prison: methamphetamine. We know what the penalties are for that for possession or for dealing in it. They're quite serious—they're very serious. It just so happens that after several years of the presence of meth on our streets and in our communities the prisons are bulging with people who have used or who have peddled it because that's actually not what's going to change behaviour. It's not what's going to make people safe.I think the member in the chair is genuine in his wish and his intention to want to make more people safe particularly those who are marginalised and who are prone to using these substances.Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. This very member was one who insisted on the clause by clause argument being very narrowly defined around the short title. I think the Minister is straying way beyond that. The sole issue for the committee on this clause is whether this is the appropriate title for the bill.Clayton Mitchell: Speaking to the point of order—CHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams): If you must.Clayton Mitchell: Yeah I must. I think that has been a very clear articulation by the Minister talking about the title of the bill.CHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams): No sit. [Interruption] No that's not a point of order. We will continue with this call but I give one for further warning. This is about clause 1—[Interruption] Order! I'm ruling.Hon ANDREW LITTLE: Thank you Madam Chair. I think in order to make the point about the proposed changes to the title that I am suggesting it is necessary to make the case about why this is avoiding the real issue why this is a cop-out and that's why I think that as this committee debates the title of the bill we should understand that actually the title of the bill does not achieve the objectives set out for it. There is nothing more important I say to the Leader of the Opposition than sitting in this Chamber and being part of an important debate that is going to affect the lives or potentially affect the lives of many many young people most importantly their families—so many families in distress looking for an answer to this very real social problem.Psychoactive substances and what we do about them is one of the major social moral and legal challenges that we face. Getting the legislation on this right and having a title on legislation that is honest about what we're trying to achieve is just as important.Saying that increasing the penalty for supply and distribution is somehow an answer to this insidious social problem is just avoiding the real issue and is copping out. That is why I say the title of this bill is poorly directed. It is poorly named. It does not say what actually this will do. This will avoid the issue for another generation to come. That's why it is important when we consider these issues that we actually start to talk about the real issues that underpin this insidious problem that we have right across New Zealand.CHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams): I am actually considering accepting a closure motion unless I have—one more chance at doing this correctly and sticking to the title clause.Clayton Mitchell: Thank you Madam Chair.CHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams): I haven't called you Clayton Mitchell.Clayton Mitchell: I know but I'm thanking you in advance.CHAIRPERSON (Poto Williams): I will call Clayton Mitchell but I'm warning the member: I will sit you down if this is not a relevant contribution.—"