7. Question No. 7—FinanceHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 7—Finance7. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour) to the Minister of Finance: What is the complete list of adjustments and exclusions that have been made to the eligible baseline of expenditure that is subject to the 6.5 percent or 7.5 percent savings that have been sought from Public Service agencies?Hon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance): The much-needed savings programme under way as part of Budget 2024 requires agencies to put forward options for 6.5 percent or 7.5 percent savings from an eligible baseline calculated by Treasury. As I have previously explained to the House the eligible baseline had some exclusions when it was calculated including the non-departmental spending of Health Education and Ministry of Disabled People - Whaikaha. I have also previously confirmed to the member that benefits are not included in the eligible baseline. There is a very long list of exclusions to the eligible baseline and many of them are exactly the same as the member's own savings exercise from last year. The list is much too long for me to read out in full but I am happy to table it if the House permits. Before I do so I would note for the member that the eligible baseline does not necessarily indicate where savings proposals will come from.Hon Kieran McAnulty: Are you going to seek leave to table it or not?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I seek leave to table the document.SPEAKER: Is there any objection to that? There appears to be none.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Hon Grant Robertson: Has spending on the Defence estate been excluded from the eligible baseline of expenditure?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: There have been a number of exclusions made from the eligible baseline some of which are agency specific.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. The member just said that she was tabling a list. She was asked if something was on the list. She hasn't even got anywhere near to addressing it.Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Mr Speaker I'm very happy to help out Mr Hipkins. The list which I am tabling and which perhaps members would like to read specifically notes other agency-specific exclusions.Hon Grant Robertson: Is the Defence estate one of those agency-specific exclusions?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I am releasing a full list of the general exclusions that apply in the majority of cases and I am noting that there are also other agency-specific exclusions. Now the member clearly is very interested in this savings exercise and what I would remind that member is that he too initiated a savings exercise in August last year.Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. We've now had two very specific questions that the Minister's refused to answer. Having refused to answer them to then go on and attack the person who's asking the question steps well outside of all of the rules of this House. SPEAKER: Yeah I'd just ask the Minister to address the question that was asked which is: is the Defence estate expenditure part of the other agency exclusions?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: As I said to the member in answer to my primary question baselines have been calculated in order to create a quantum of saving target. That does not indicate where savings will come from. There is a long list of generic exemptions and in addition there have been agency-specific exclusions.Hon Grant Robertson: Can she guarantee that work on the Defence estate will not be subject to a 6.5 or 7.5 percent cut?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Defence have been asked to put forward proposals to achieve a baseline reduction. Our guidance to Defence has been that we recognise they face significant cost pressures and as such we do expect them to—we have in fact invited them to submit what costs that they may need met in this Budget. In addition just like with all other agencies we have asked them to focus on low-value programmes programmes that don't align with the new coalition Government's priorities and non-essential back-office functions including contractor and consultant spend. I would note to the member as I have many many times now that proposals are yet to be considered by Ministers and all decisions will be made by Ministers.Stuart Smith: What is the purpose of the savings exercise?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: The Government is requiring public agencies to find permanent savings including through cutting back on contractors. … trimming back some programmes and taking back underspends. … It is clear given the economic conditions that we need this work to happen more than ever." Members opposite who cry out at this may wish to know that I've just quoted from the honourable member's own press statement of 28 August 2023 in which he announced his own—Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker. Given the Minister persistently refuses to answer the questions being asked by the Opposition for her then to have a Government patsy question which she then uses to attack the Opposition means that she's repeatedly falling foul of all of the rules of this House. I wonder if you would consider given that this is a relatively consistent pattern from the Minister of Finance whether in fact there should be some sanction applied to that. For example the number of supplementary questions that have been effectively wasted to not get an answer should be credited back to the Opposition on a future day.SPEAKER: Well there's a couple of points I'd make. First thing is while members will ask questions and may not like the answers that are coming I think in the end the explanation given by the Minister of Finance was quite reasonable; I took it as being so. With regards to the question that was set up I have made it clear that questions should not be used to attack the Government. I'm not sure how quoting a previous Minister is an attack on the Opposition but I will have another look at this obviously as we progress through the day.Hon Grant Robertson: Supplementary.Stuart Smith: Supplementary.Hon Grant Robertson: Oh he can have another go.SPEAKER: Are you yielding?Hon Grant Robertson: Supplementary.SPEAKER: Supplementary the Hon Grant Robertson.Hon Grant Robertson: Is the Minister aware that even if she sacked every person who does work on policy communications and cancelled all the publicity work of the Department of Conservation she would be tens of millions of dollars short of the target for cuts that she has set for that agency?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: As I have said many times to the member we have asked agencies to look for savings across a number of categories—including programmes that are not delivering maximum value including programmes that aren't delivering results. Those proposals will be considered by Ministers in full. One of the great things about our savings exercise is that we're actually going to complete it unlike the former Minister.Stuart Smith: What does the list—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Wait on wait on—noise on both sides; Mr Bishop.Stuart Smith: What does the list that the Minister has just tabled show about where the savings will come from?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: The member asks a very good question. The list of exclusions I have tabled does not indicate where savings will come from because agencies can put forward savings options from wherever they wish to. We've asked chief executives to exercise good judgment in putting savings options up to Ministers and we've also asked that staff are able to put forward ideas. It is Ministers who will make the final decisions on whether savings options progress as part of Budget 2024. We will have a firm focus on shifting resource from the back office to front-line services in line with our commitment to New Zealanders to stop wasteful spending improve value for money and drive resources into the front line.Hon Grant Robertson: Can she guarantee that no front-line services provided by the Department of Conservation will be cut as a result of the savings exercise?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I'm yet to even see the proposals from the Department of Conservation."