Abel Steve; Goldsmith PaulSTEVE ABEL (Green): Thank you Madam Chair. I have a follow up in the sense to what the honourable member Willow-Jean Prime has been saying further to the points made on the nature of circumstance into which people come. There but by the grace of God we go in a sense; we don't choose the house or the circumstance we're born into or raised in—the deprivation the poverty the potential violence and the trauma that is suffered.My question for the Minister of Justice relates to the opinion of judges on the matter of the value of the cultural reports and I'm hoping that he will take it into account. But for context we know that often the perpetrators of crime have been themselves the victims of crime. There's the beautiful Auden poem that goesI and the public knowWhat all school children learnThose to whom evil is doneDo evil in return.Now being a victim of crime doesn't make you entitled to commit crime any more than being the historic victim of genocide makes you entitled to commit genocide now. But is it right that we should understand the circumstances which have led people to where they are? Absolutely it is right. And if we want a right justice system one that brings justice to victims as well as to those who in their history may have been victims surely we need to know that history. Surely we need to know the context of that circumstance. And surely for a judge to be able to rely on the basis of an expert report made by somebody who is a sociologist perhaps who knows the nature of how a person's circumstances impact the way they behave who knows the cultural context and the familial context of a family—surely it is more useful for a judge to have the confidence of the expertise in the author of that report for them to be able to then take that into account in their application of sentencing and appropriate sentencing that can better enable appropriate application of rehabilitation. That rehabilitation is what is going to enable us to have a justice system that protects the victims that minimises the number of victims in our society which is surely the goal of our justice system Minister.So when judges say that they are concerned—sentencing judges have expressed that those cultural reports are helpful for them. Those sentencing judges say those cultural reports are helpful for them. Why is it the Minister does not take that into account?Getting simply a family member which is absolutely valuable to hear from but a family member alone who may not have the ability to articulate in a language or in means that are meaningful to a sentencing judge the nature of the background of the person who has been sentenced—then this is exactly why we do need expertise. This is exactly why when any witness in a crime is called the expertise of that witness is a major factor in the ability of the judge or the jury to take into account what has been presented in that information. And surely on the same basis the expertise of the author of that report is an important factor.Here the judges are telling us that those cultural reports are helpful for them. So how does the Minister take into account the importance of that cultural report? Because surely if it is true that we want a society that is authentically trying to reduce the number of victims we would want to break that cycle and we would want to understand that cycle. And surely understanding the cycle is the means to breaking it. That's my question to the Minister thank you.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice): Thank you Madam Chair. The question was raised tonight how does it fit within our international agreements? My answer is that it fits very comfortably with our international agreements and our focus on ensuring that all New Zealanders get to live in a peaceful and safe society. As we've outlined a number of times Māori are more likely to be the victims of crime than other members of society and so they benefit also from the wise use of limited legal aid resources and you know some discipline around the extent of discounts in sentencing which is a broader issue that the Government is concerned about in order to have real consequences for crime.Now the issue that many of people have raised is the implication that the passing of this law will mean that somehow judges can no longer have any information around the background of offenders which is complete nonsense. There are many opportunities for it and—apart from the last five years where all this money has been spent on these cultural reports under the previous Government—before it didn't happen like that and the justice system didn't grind to a halt and people didn't have no access to justice for decades.Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Yes they did. Listen to the inquiry on this.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: They did? I just got correspondence from a former probation officer who had retired before these section 27 reports came in and he said As part of my work I wrote numerous reports including victim impact reports emotional harm reports reparation reports pre-sentence reports. These reports were concise and comprehensive including cultural aspects family life employment status lifestyle physical and mental health factors surrounding offending expressions of remorse and suitability for rehabilitation" and then went on to say "I fail to see what more could be achieved by these very expensive questionably credible section 27 reports."Hon Willow-Jean Prime: So this is one probation officer emailing you versus the Law Society Māori Law Society Bar Association Defence Lawyers Association?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Yes—but the point is that there are many avenues in the legislation at the moment through pre-sentencing reports and other reports where people can understand the background of offenders. What we don't need is this little industry developing what I think the previous Minister in the other Government referred to as "mini theses" being written about all sorts of detailed backgrounds which is all very nice with the report writers but not helpful to the overall effectiveness of the regime.We listened to the many comments from many commentators on this topic and we treat them all with the respect that they deserve. But the Government has determined that we will stick with our promise and we will deliver this legislation because we think it's the right thing to do."