Children Young Persons and Their Families  Amendment Bill (No 6) — First Reading 
Children Young Persons and Their Families  Amendment Bill (No 6) — First Reading 
[Volume:645;Page:14635] 
Children Young Persons and Their Families  Amendment Bill (No 6) 
First Reading 
Debate resumed from 4 March. 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 I rise to speak against this bill not because there are not a number of valid provisions within the bill but because there are some that actually detract from it quite significantly. I am pleased to see notifications of abuse included. When children disclose abuse there should be a fast track for those matters to be investigated and to be exposed. The fact is that when children disclose abuse they disclose it to an adult because they want to make it stop but for years and years we have seen the professionals working in the area do everything they can to move away from a position where they have to take action seriously on the disclosure of abuse hiding behind some perceived relationship they may have with the child or with the parents of that child and failing to take concrete action. Unfortunately the abuse has gone on from there. 
I am also pleased to see a provision where family group conferences for care and protection matters have a 30-day time limit. I have to say that I do not see any need for there to be legislation around this particular concern as it is one that goes on and on time and time again. I am reminded of the last time that I was sitting in the Youth Court in South Auckland at Manukau and watching a number of matters come before the court. For five of the matters called before the court—in fact for the first five matters called before the court—the young person was not available nor were their parents. The reason was that they had not been served any notice by Child Youth and Family social workers to say that the matter was going ahead. 
I have attended two family group conferences in recent weeks and on one occasion the proposals for resolution put before the family group conference—for endorsement as a proposed resolution of the conference—did not stack up because the positions that were possibly available and open as a resolution had not been confirmed by the providers. So those present at the family group conference were asked to endorse a proposal that had no end to it. 
I am also pleased to see in the bill the removal of the requirement of consent from young persons before they can be given a sentence of community work or supervision with activity. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that this legislation which had its genesis in 1989 and in which the young person has the option as to whether they are going to be engaged in community work or be sentenced to a term of supervision with activity has lasted so long. It is no surprise to me that high-end offenders who are sentenced to these sorts of programmes such as supervision with activity or supervision with residence may choose in effect to go to jail. There are a hell of a lot more brownie points amongst their associates on their having done what they perceive to be a lag than there are on their going on a course of supervision with activity that involves them being in unfamiliar territory on their own without their mates and without any way of connecting with street gang affiliations for instance. 
I am also pleased to see within this legislation the provision that young persons who are aged as young as 14 will now be able to be commuted to the District Court when the charge is a purely indictable charge. The problem with that is that it addresses only the very very high-end offences which are the purely indictable offences such as arson rape aggravated robbery and suchlike but it does not address those offences young people are engaging in that we are becoming more and more concerned about. 
In the last 9 years we have seen an escalation of youth violence by 47 percent—that is a 47 percent escalation in youth violence. Yet for instance if a person beats someone up on the street and uses extreme violence and is charged with robbery as a 14 or 15-year-old then that person cannot go through to the District Court for sentence because it is not a purely indictable offence. If a young person beats someone up with a baseball bat and is charged with assault with a weapon then he or she cannot go through to the District Court for sentencing. That seems to me to be a ridiculous situation when cases of extreme violence are those that are of most concern within the jurisdiction at the moment. The escalation in youth offending in violent offences is higher than in any other class of offences young people are appearing before the court for at the moment. 
In a similar vein a young person who has committed for instance sexual offences that do not amount to rape or unlawful sexual connection will not be able to appear before the District Court either. A young offender could commit a series of offences that amount to indecent assault and may have a well-discerned problem with those offences—and may well even have been previously sentenced for those offences—yet he or she still cannot appear before the District Court for sentence or access the programmes available through the District Court. I think that that is ridiculous. 
The reason why National will not support this legislation lies principally around three points that the bill does not address. For instance the bill seeks to raise the age of a young person who can appear before and be dealt with by the Youth Court from 17 to 18. Currently the situation is that if a person is under the age of 17 then he or she will be dealt with in the Youth Court. This legislation raises that level so that if a young person is under the age of 18 then he or she will be dealt with by the Youth Court. I wonder whether members can consider what they were doing when they were 18 because I know that a number of us at the age of 18 were working in adult jobs and being treated as adults with adult responsibilities. There are people in this House I think who were parents at 18. 
The other day there was a photograph on the front page of the  
Taranaki Daily News 
 showing two young people who had been encouraged by the Ministry of Social Development to set up home together. They are still at high school so they have decided that that is what they will do. There is a lovey-dovey story and a big colour photograph of them having become engaged setting up home together. They have made a decision to shack up. This Government would say to them that they are still children yet at the same time it has encouraged them with a series of benefits whereby they can carry on living as children. 
The youth justice accommodation as it is at the moment the supervision with activity is absolutely filled to the brim. For instance on a recent visit to the Rolleston youth justice facility we met a 15-year-old who was serving his fifth term of supervision with residence. It is his fifth term of 3 months’ duration. In fact most of the people we spoke to on that day had served multiple terms of supervision. At the last family group conference that I attended which was in the last couple of weeks the 15-year-old— 
Jill Pettis 
: Name dropper. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: There are no names involved. The 15-year-old offender who had broken into a house while armed and had stolen a vehicle along with his 17-year-old brother who was on parole was being dealt with before the family group conference. The 17-year-old of course under this legislation would still be appearing before the Youth Court. 
National believes that Labour has spent its time trying to minimise the effect of youth offending. We note for instance within the graffiti bill which is currently before the Law and Order Committee that it is an offence to sell a spray-can to a youth under 18 years of age but there are no possessory offences for the under-18-year-old to be caught red-handed with the can about to spray it on a clean fence. It seems ridiculous to me that there is no possessory offence for the person who is going to do the tagging but there is a $1500 fine open to the person who sells the spray-can. 
National believes we need to be holding these young people to account. National believes that if someone is between 17 and 18 years of age then that person should be treated for the adult that he or she is. National will not be supporting this legislation. 
JILL PETTIS (Labour) 
: 
 That was a classic case of “that was then and this is now”. I have every newspaper clipping in which Mr Borrows the member speaking previously has ever been quoted. I keep the lot of them. I have newspapers that go right back to 1935 and sometimes that member looks as if he were born in 1935. I remember when that member was acting as a 5-minute lawyer. There he was defending somebody who was found guilty of breaking the law. Now here he is in this environment defending that very slippery behaviour of Mr Key—the very shonky behaviour of Mr Key. There he is up there like a faithful little minion defending him when we are actually here to discuss the Children Young Persons and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 6) which is a far-sighted bill about reducing the incidence of young peoples’ reoffending. 
Anybody who has spent 5 minutes with any young person who may have gone a little bit astray knows that applying punitive punishment measures does not work in the long term. That member Mr Borrows sat with me on the select committee considering Ron Mark’s bill for 2½ years and I have to say in his defence that he said some very sensible things. He said some very sensible things when we were listening to submissions on that bill. He voted against Mr Mark’s bill and so did we in Labour. But Mr Mark has worked with this Government to help bring this present bill about. However because it is election year now and because Mr Key is saying different things to different audiences that junior member of the National Party over there is following on like a little minion saying “Yes Mr Key; no Mr Key; whatever you say Mr Key.” It is very slippery behaviour indeed and very inconsistent. 
It will catch the member out. I have a memory like an elephant and I will remember this speech during the election campaign; I will be sitting in an audience next time and I will be interjecting during the campaign trail. I will be saying “But what about your speech on the Children Young Persons and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 6) Mr Borrows? That is not what you said then when you were speaking to the good people like Presbyterian Support and all of those other agencies that support youth.” When Mr Borrows is being soft and saying “Oh yes I’ve got a very good social conscience.” I will remind him of the speech that he gave today. I will take photocopies of the  
Hansard 
 record and I will remind people of what National members are saying to this audience compared with what they will say to audiences in a few months’ time. I can assure this House today that the message people are hearing today will not be the message they will be hearing from National out on the campaign trail. 
Hon Member 
: Same old story. 
JILL PETTIS 
: That is right. We cannot put money on what they are going to say because it changes. At least when we put a bet on a goori at the trots or the races we put an estimated intelligent dollar down based on what we think that animal might do. 
Chris Tremain 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I refer to Standing Order 107 in respect of relevance. The speaker is not even anywhere near the Children Young Persons and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 6). I ask that she shows some relevance. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member has not been speaking for long. 
JILL PETTIS 
: I am galloping towards it right now I say to Mr Tremain. I have to say that the inconsistencies that National members are showing at the moment about a whole range of matters are actually not in this country’s interests and their inconsistency on this bill is not in the long-term interests of young people in New Zealand. 
I admit that I have had a bit of fun with the speech I have been giving so far— 
Jacqui Dean 
: We haven’t. 
JILL PETTIS 
: I have thoroughly enjoyed myself. I am sorry the member does not have a sense of humour but some of us have. 
This is actually a very serious matter. This is about young people and the best options for their long-term future. I ask members in this House to put up their hands if they have never made a mistake. Yes every person who gets to our age has made a mistake. Young people make mistakes too. They should not have to pay for the rest of their lives when they do something silly foolish unpremeditated and basically just downright stupid. Is it not a far better investment in them and an investment in our society to work with them to make sure they do not repeat those mistakes? That is what this bill is all about. It is about working with young people who may have offended and with their families so that those young people get on to the right track and become worthwhile and productive citizens. Labour has a plan for the future youth of New Zealand. That is why we support this bill; this is about young people not politics. 
A party vote was called for on the question that the Children Young Persons and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 6) be now read a first time. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Maori Party 2; Independent: Copeland. 
Motion not agreed to. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 Could we please have repeated to us the votes because I think there was a misunderstanding as to the votes of the Maori Party. We understood that party to have voted in favour and its votes may not have been counted. I seek leave to have the vote taken again. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: We can seek leave to take the vote again if there has been a misunderstanding. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Whip—Maori Party) 
: 
 It was my mistake. I seek leave to correct the Maori Party vote. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is none. Perhaps we should take the whole vote again. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the Children Young Persons and Their Families Amendment Bill (No 6) be now read a first time. 
Ayes 59 
New Zealand Labour 49; Green Party 6; Maori Party 2; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 56 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; Independent: Copeland.