Carter John: New Zealand Trade and Enterprise Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee 
Carter John: New Zealand Trade and Enterprise Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee 
[Volume:609;Page:6275] 
JOHN CARTER (NZ National—Northland) 
: I want to talk specifically to clause 3(1) in these 5 minutes and then I will take the opportunity a little later to talk to clause 3(2). I want to talk about the issue of the Government developing internationally competitive businesses. First of all I acknowledge the contribution made by Ken Shirley the ACT member in discussing whether the Government should be involved in that area. I want the member to understand that there is a debate to be had about that and it is certainly not a hard and fast matter one way or the other. But given that the Government has taken the decision to be involved in helping small businesses to become established to grow and develop and then to become internationally competitive I ask this Minister with regard to the purpose of this bill to please do that properly. 
I say to the Minister in the chair that I criticise him more for the way he lets his department operate than for anything else. I tell him that it is just not working. The bureaucracy created when the Minister tries to help— 
Hon Jim Anderton 
: Which department? 
JOHN CARTER 
: I am talking about clause 3(1) which is about getting a small business established developed and made internationally competitive. 
Hon Jim Anderton 
: Which department isn’t working? Tell me. Name it. 
JOHN CARTER 
: OK I will tell the Minister. If he listens I will tell him what happens. I want to refer the Minister to an organisation called the Methodist Employment Generation Fund. If the Minister has not heard of it he should have because if we are to do this sort of stuff that fund is an example of something that works compared with the Minister’s department which does not. 
This is what happens when people go into the ministry. They are asked to fill out some forms and then a whole lot of bureaucrats come around and ask them to fill out more forms. People fill out several lots of different forms. If I am trying to get a business development grant I must fill out all those forms. There is a certain amount of money set aside and finally if I am lucky my name comes out of the hat and I receive a grant. So I am given a grant and away I go. I have a grant for 12 months to get myself started and on the way. I have to put a contribution in so I go down the road and arrange with the bank to mortgage my house and whatever else I can offer. 
But if I receive some funding from the Minister’s department to get me on the way this is what happens. I get started I get the business going and it sort of gets on its way. Then after 12 months goes by I think that I am ready to take the next step. I think that I need to keep moving and to grow. I want to employ more people. So I think I will go back to the ministry because the Minister said that he was there to help small businesses to grow and create employment. But when I go back to the Minister’s department and say— 
David Benson-Pope 
: Which department? 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: It’s an agency. 
JOHN CARTER 
: Well there are agencies. Members can call them what they like; they are the things the Minister is responsible for—OK? He is there to try to help small businesses is he not? 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: They were just asking which one it is. That’s the very point: there’s too many of them. 
JOHN CARTER 
: That is the damn trouble. This Minister has so many bureaucracies that he—the Minister—does not know which one is responsible for that. He has to ask me for goodness’ sake! Somebody who goes and asks for help is given the run-around from his bureaucracy because he or she does not damn well know which agency to go to. 
But if people do finally latch on to someone who gives them a grant what happens? They go back in 12 months’ time because they have got started and they think maybe they are on their way and will make it. So they decide to put their names in the hat. They receive some more forms and they spend a frustrating 6 months filling out a whole lot of forms and making some contacts overseas so they can perhaps sell the products they are making whatever they are. And what happens? 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Nothing! 
JOHN CARTER 
: That is absolutely right. People do not have another shot at the funding. There is no more support. The officials say they are sorry but they have already given those people a grant and now they have to go along and give a grant to new applicants because the Government might receive some more votes from them. So those people who have already received grants are on the scrapheap—failed. 
All that has happened is that those people’s expectations have been built up. They thought they were going somewhere. The taxpayers have wasted $20000 $50000 or whatever sum of money it may have been because that proposal does not get finished. As a consequence of that the Minister should never have started assisting it. His agencies are unlike the Methodist Employment Generation Fund which stays with people. If that fund gets involved it stays with people. They do not receive a grant from it.