Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:619;Page:15014] 
2.  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay Of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: Does the Government have any plans to review refugee numbers in light of evidence that nine out of 10 refugees are still dependent on a benefit after 2 years and that after 5 years eight out of 10 are benefit-reliant; if so what are they? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 No. The Government has no plans to review the number of refugees accepted into New Zealand each year under the refugee quota programme. New Zealand takes up to 750 refugees each year as part of its contribution to being a good international citizen. However the Government recently announced the National Immigration Settlement Strategy which has dedicated $62 million over 4 years to the settlement of migrants and refugees. Ensuring that refugees and migrants are able to obtain employment appropriate to their qualifications and skills is one of the three goals that the Budget package initially focuses on. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is it not the problem with this Government’s policy that the Government is bringing in more and more refugees who go on a benefit and are then able to bring in more and more of their family members who go on a benefit and who after a few years bring in more of their family members who go on a benefit so the cycle carries on and the taxpayers pay for it when the answer would be a cut in the number of refugees and to get them into a job? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: No. Most New Zealanders would be proud of the fact that we take as part of our international responsibilities people who come from dreadful situations overseas—the fear and trauma of camps which is something that the member—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is too much shouting and too much comment. I want to hear the answer. A bit of interjection is all right but this is getting silly. There is one member in particular who is shouting the whole time. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: We take our obligations seriously. The fact is that we take people from places around the world where there is fear and trauma and where children are involved in circumstances that they should not be involved in. We are proud to do that as part of being an international citizen. However I should say that even though the interviews for the recent report were completed last September the latest figures I have state that since September 2003—as a result of good work from my colleague the Minister for Social Development and Employment—364 refugees have been placed into employment 158 refugees have achieved stable employment and there has been a 33.6 percent reduction in the migrant and refugee unemployment register. That was a result of funding from the Budget last year and it is clearly working. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What other services are available to newly arrived refugees? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Like all other New Zealanders newly arrived refugees can access Government-funded health housing and employment assistance. In addition the settlement package includes an extra $6 million over 4 years specifically for the Refugee and Migrant Service to help refugees to settle well in New Zealand. This Government is proud of its international obligations and of the way that it carries them out. It seems that the National Party although it used to be proud of them is not any more and would prefer to leave people in camps where it knows terrible things happen particularly to children. 
Peter Brown 
: Could the Minister noting the answers that he has just given inform the House what the cost has been to the taxpayer for refugees and illegal immigrants on an annual basis since Labour became the Government? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I do not have those figures in front of me. [ 
Interruption 
] Well he also mentions illegal immigrants. I am happy to break the figures down when I can get them and to provide the member with that information. But I need to point out to the member for his information that there is a difference between refugees and illegal immigrants. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Supplementary question Keith Locke. 
Peter Brown 
: Mr Speaker— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have called only Mr Locke. [ 
Interruption 
] No no. The member will get a supplementary question eventually. We do the rounds. The member has been here now for all the time that I have been here—[ 
Interruption 
] Oh no he has not. For all the time I have been the Speaker the member has been in the House and he knows that we do the rounds of the other parties first. He can have a second and even a tenth go if he wants. 
Keith Locke 
: Will the Minister consider increasing the $6 million for refugee settlement that he just referred to in the light of a much more serious situation disclosed in the report just released and in other reports—particularly in the area of increased English-language teaching for refugees and of work amongst employers to reduce the discrimination that refugees find when trying to get a job? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: In response to that I firstly want to say—and the member has referred to the report—that it is a good report. It highlights some of the difficulties that refugees who have come out of very difficult circumstances have in settling in New Zealand. The Government has put quite considerable funding into things like English language courses as well as into employment matching. But the issues involved here are the kinds of things that I and the officials are working on in order to see whether it is appropriate to go back as part of the Budget round and look at whether we need to make some improvements in this area. It is a very good report and I commend it to all members of the House. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: As there are over 20 million refugees in the world many of whom are highly skilled why does this Government insist on taking unskilled refugees who are destined for the dead-end of welfare? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Now this is the one warning I am giving each day: there will be no interjection during questions. It is the democratic right of all members to ask their questions in silence and I will uphold that right very strongly. During answers there can be a bit of interjection but I was displeased with that interruption. I will ask Dr Newman to read her question again. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: As there are over 20 million refugees in the world many of whom are highly skilled why does this Government insist on taking unskilled refugees who are destined for the dead-end of welfare? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: It is extremely frustrating to have to answer a question like that and I suggest that if the member reads the book she will get some understanding of that. The reality is that a large number of the refugees who come here are well skilled and the document points out the difficulty that those people have in finding employment. That is nothing to do necessarily with their skills but is to do with the issues of their trying to get into work in New Zealand. I suggest that the member reads the publication so she may understand the refugee problem a little better and that she gets off her ACT hobby horse from which she seems always to be attacking people who are in worse conditions than herself. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Why did the Minister tell the House that New Zealanders would be proud of the Labour Government’s record on refugees when 90 percent of refugees are on welfare after being in the country for 2 years and 80 percent of them are still on benefits after 5 years; why would we be proud of that? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: For a start of course the member does not understand the figures. This is a report of a sample of interviews with 400 people and it is really important to see that not only—[ 
Interruption 
] It did not just talk about that; it talked about the fact that they were pleased to come to New Zealand where people were friendly and welcoming and where it was democratic. I suggest that instead of that National Party bagging refugees its members should try to help those people to get jobs. That would be a responsible thing for the National Party to do and I think it should be ashamed of backing away from the international contributions that we have made over a long period of time. 
Peter Brown 
: Will the Minister consider introducing reforms to the immigration system to tackle the fiscal burden that the appeals decision process for refugees and asylum seekers places on the New Zealand taxpayer—yes or no? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I wonder whether the Minister would now answer the question that Muriel Newman put to him which was this: there are 20 million refugees in the world according to the official UN refugee agency many of whom are highly skilled able to speak English and would fit into New Zealand society but this Government insists on taking illiterate Afghani camel drivers and bringing them into this country; what is the point of that? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There was not actually a question there but I presume the member is asking the Minister to comment. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I think I did ask a question. I asked why the Government is insisting on taking—[ 
Interruption 
] The member who said that shows obviously that he does not do any constituency work. I can assure him that I have had many refugees coming to see me who could not speak English who had no education at all and who had no chance of ever getting a job in this country. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: For a start many refugees cannot speak English because some of the really terrible spots in the world do not happen to be in English-speaking countries. I hope the member will acknowledge that. Secondly the selection criteria do look at a whole range of things but it is important that we do not close our doors to people who have been in traumatic situations who have been living in camps and who then find the opportunity to come to a welcoming country start again and bring up their families with confidence surrounded by people who care. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is the Minister aware that 14 boys who were refugees from the MV  
Tampa 
 have reportedly been able to bring at least 109 family members into the country and that—based on the Government’s own report—most of those people will be dependent on welfare and neglected by this Government for at least the next 5 years? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I do not know the actual numbers but it is fair to say that people who do come here are able to bring in some family members. [ 
Interruption 
] They have always been able to. For 9 years under the previous National Government that policy was in place. It was no different then and why is it still in place? It is because we think that if we bring some people here and they want to bring some family members that helps the settlement programme and there should be nothing wrong with that. The reality is the important thing about the report is that it states that while people like being here they have difficulty getting into employment and we have to do better to help them do that—and we are. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Is any thought being given to training an illiterate Afghani camel driver for the vacant position of Leader of the Opposition? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that question is out of order. While we can inject a little humour into the situation I think that went a bit too far and I ask the member to withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I withdraw and apologise.