5. Child Poverty—Target Setting Policy and MeasurementMETIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Prime MinisterChild Poverty—Target Setting Policy and Measurement5. METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Prime Minister: Ka tū a ia i runga i te mana o āna kōrero katoa?[Does he stand by all his statements?]Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes especially this comment: This is a government that's been very focused on the most at-risk kids. We want to do better for them."Metiria Turei: When the Prime Minister said that his Government is "absolutely happy to commit to doing the best that we can to reduce the number of children that are in poverty or are struggling" why does his best exclude a child poverty reduction target?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Because the official advice is that there are a great many ways of measuring children who may or may not be in poverty and one of the problems with having an individual target is you would then spend your time I think (a) potentially stigmatising a lot of kids (b) not giving the money to areas that you actually need to—like rheumatic fever—and thirdly disagreeing with it. The member's definition of homeless people is 41000 people including people living on couches. The member's definition of poor children is 360000. The Government's is 60000. There you go—we do not agree.Metiria Turei: Does the Prime Minister agree with the Ministry of Social Development's technical measure that there are 230000 New Zealand children living in households with incomes at 60 percent of the after-housing costs anchored line?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I am sure if the member is doing justice to the report and reading it out correctly that will be correct. That will be the report commissioned by Bryan Perry which is the most definitive guide to measuring hardship in New Zealand and I quote it where the report says "There is no evidence of increased poverty. Rates of material hardship in children have fallen in recent years."Metiria Turei: Does the Prime Minister accept the Ministry of Social Development's official advice that there are 85000 New Zealand children living in severe material hardship?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes and that is why the Government has been saying for some time—when the member has been going out there inflating the number of children in extreme poverty—that the Government's best calculation is between 60000 and 100000. At that point we were saying that we did not have Bryan Perry's most recent report but the indications were that it would be around the mid-point and indeed it proved to be that.Metiria Turei: Can the Prime Minister tell the House what is wrong with these internationally accepted official measures used by the Ministry of Social Development and why they are not an appropriate measure of child poverty against which he can set targets for reduction?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: There is absolutely nothing wrong with them and that is what the Government does: it uses exactly that data and then it sets individual targets for things like immunisation and for areas like participation in early childhood education. It looks at income issues for families most at risk—that is the whole point. The Government goes out there—and this Government has done more than any other Government to do exactly that in terms of insulating homes in terms of maintaining Working for Families and extending it and in terms of making sure there are free doctors visits and putting significant resources into rheumatic fever. That is the point: the Government uses the data and then assesses individual targets.Metiria Turei: If the Prime Minister accepts these official measures and he has set targets in at least 32 other policy areas why will he not establish these measures as official measures and set child poverty reduction targets as a result?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The Government has chosen to set individual targets on an individualised component part of what might be defined as poverty. We think that is a better and more effective way of making sure we are delivering for these kids. These kids are the top priority of the Government. That is why we have been putting so much money into areas like rheumatic fever and insulating 300000 homes and making sure that is the top priority for those homes now—in fact actually those that are occupied by the least well-off New Zealanders. The member is saying that there is one definition of poverty. There is not. The moment that you do that the member will then come back and say that she is effectively stigmatising a whole bunch of kids.Metiria Turei: At the very least will the Prime Minister commit to reducing the number of children living in severe deprivation—a measure that he has publicly accepted as accurate—by at least 10 percent by the end of next year?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I will not set a particular reduction target but what I will do is continue to do what the Government has been doing which is focusing absolutely on those children and that is one of the reasons why the Government has been saying that the number of those children who are in that group is between 60000 and 100000. It is why we are the first Government in 43 years to raise benefits. But I will raise one issue for the House—Metiria Turei: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! I have not called the member. Point of order.Metiria Turei: The Prime Minister has answered the question quite fully. If he has other issues to raise I suggest he does that in other questions.Mr SPEAKER: Order! That is not a point of order. I think it is a valid point but it is not a point of order. It is for me to decide when an answer will come to a conclusion.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Is it a point of order?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No. I want to carry on with my answer.Mr SPEAKER: No. I actually on this point—[Interruption] Order! The Prime Minister will resume his seat. No. On this occasion although it was not a point of order I said I actually accepted that it was a reasonable point. The answer was given very clearly at the start of the answer and I was about to rise to my feet to bring the Prime Minister to a conclusion. I do not have to any more."