Laban Luamanuvao Winnie: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Laban Luamanuvao Winnie: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:624;Page:18958] 
4.  
LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour—Mana) 
 to the  
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade 
: Has he received any reports on other countries having withdrawn their ambassadors from Indonesia in protest at the inability of prosecutors to secure court convictions on the most serious charges against Abu BakarBashir? 
Hon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade) 
: 
 I am advised that no country has done so and that in fact the only person even to suggest taking such an action has been Dr Brash. Everyone else has been able to work out that Indonesia’s track record in bringing Bali bombers to justice has in fact been extraordinarily good and that the inability of prosecutors and the justice system to make serious charges against Bashir stick is separate from the decision-making process of the executive. Everybody in the House understands that. Dr Brash’s failure to do so is at best naive and at worst an example of desperate opportunism. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I do not know whether you heard the response in respect of that answer but frankly we on this side of the Chamber could not hear it for a constant cackle and barrage of complaint when obviously no complaint was warranted. I think those members should be required to restrain themselves. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Thank you. The answer from the Minister was also too long. 
Luamanuvao Winnie Laban 
: Is there any evidence that the Indonesian Government has failed to take action to hold to account those responsible for the Bali bombing? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: No. To the contrary there is overwhelming evidence that Indonesia has cooperated actively on investigations with countries whose citizens were victims of the bombing and has worked hard to collect evidence bring charges and secure convictions of the Bali bombers. With the high number of convictions to a large extent the Indonesian justice system has been successful in doing so notwithstanding the disappointment we share with others that the court did not regard evidence on the most serious charges against Bashir as being sufficient to convict. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: When high-profile trials of this type occur is it normal for a Government like the New Zealand Government to intervene in any shape or form with another sovereign Government to suggest what the outcome of those trials might be? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: No it is not normal. We would take the view that if there was a court trial before a New Zealand court and another Government sought to instruct the executive to interfere in an independent judicial process that would be totally out of order. However what we can do is ask questions as we are doing as to whether an appeal will be taken. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Did the Minister or his colleagues see the disclaimer from the National Party leader as to the purport of his first demand that the ambassador be withdrawn from Indonesia and does he give any credence to it? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I did indeed see the disclaimer. It shows that Dr Brash was last night scrambling to explain his statement stating that he meant that New Zealand should withdraw Mr Elder for consultations unless Indonesia indicated it would appeal against the sentence. The report notes that that is not consistent with Dr Brash’s original statement. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I seek leave to table a document in front of me that makes it very clear that on the morning Dr Brash released the statement it stated that New Zealand should bring the ambassador home for consultations. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: What is the document? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: It is the press release. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table the press release. Is there any objection? There is. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. If it is not possible to table the press release in the House what possible verification could the current Minister have for his whole line of answering to the House? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It is in the gift of the House as to whether members grant leave. They decided not to. 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I seek leave to table a document from the  
Dominion Post  
that states that Dr Brash’s original statement made no mention of Indonesia not appealing against the sentence which contradicts his attempt to explain himself—unsuccessfully. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I seek leave to table the press release made by Phil Goff when he was in Opposition in 1994 asking for New Zealand to withdraw its ambassador from Indonesia as a consequence of dissatisfaction with the handling of the Dili massacre by the Indonesian judicial authorities. 
Document not tabled. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I seek leave as we cannot read the latter document or learn of its contents to table the original statement in respect of Dr Brash’s comments which is all about learning on the job. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That was not a point of order. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: In light of the Minister’s earlier answer that it is appropriate for New Zealand to express concern to Indonesia regarding the outcome of the trial in terms of any appeal that is to be lodged can he now tell the House what specific actions if any the New Zealand Government has taken in respect of that? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I have asked the Ambassador to Indonesia through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade to ask the Indonesian Government whether it intends to appeal against the decision. I am of course mindful that there is no way that we could instruct such a thing. I am also mindful of the fact that to demand such a thing and for the Indonesian Government to be seen to be responding to a foreign Government’s demand would be totally counterproductive to what we are all trying to achieve against terrorism in Indonesia. 
Rt Hon Helen Clark 
: How would the Minister react if another country threatened to withdraw its ambassador to New Zealand because the executive here refused to interfere in a court decision? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: Quite frankly to use the vernacular we would probably tell it to sod off. 
Luamanuvao Winnie Laban 
: How many people has the Indonesian judiciary convicted on terrorism charges related to the Bali bombing and what sorts of sentences have been imposed? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: More than 30 people have been prosecuted and jailed in Indonesia on terrorism charges relating to the Bali bombing. Those convicted of the most serious charges such as Amrozi have been given the most severe penalty in Indonesia which is death. In light of this track record not to mention the separation of the judiciary from the executive the proposal by Dr Brash to withdraw our ambassador is clearly ludicrous. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That answer was marginal to the Minister’s responsibility.