Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 24 November 2009. Volume:659;Page:8025. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
2.  
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Does she have confidence in the Department of Corrections? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 In spite of the years of neglect inflicted on the department by the previous administration yes. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does she have confidence in all the advice provided by the Department of Corrections about the cost of privately run prisons in comparison with public prisons even though it has been giving her advice since last December that shows that the cost of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison—the only example New Zealand has to draw on—is more expensive than the public equivalents which is advice that is completely contradictory to her claim that private prisons are cheaper to run? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Yes. The department also provided advice that included the 70000 hours of rehabilitative treatment that the Auckland Central Remand Prison had to give when it was privately run. The figures that the member is talking about were not actually included. The real figures—the “apples with apples” comparison rather than the “apples with oranges” one—show that private prisons are better value. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is the Department of Corrections advice of 18 December 2008 which states: “The costs of the ACRP were higher than those of publicly run prisons.” 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: The second document is departmental advice to the Minister on 10 March 2009 that “the closest scenarios” the department is able to provide show the privately run Auckland Central Remand Prison to be more expensive than the public prison service. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is none. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: The next document is departmental advice to the Law and Order Committee on 20 July 2009 and 25 August 2009 that the per prisoner costs of the Auckland Central Remand Prison were more expensive when privately managed than when the Department of Corrections was in management the following year and more expensive than the per prisoner cost of remand prisoners— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Can I just clarify whether this is advice to the select committee. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Yes and it is now public. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Parliament already has that. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I think it is germane to the question Mr Speaker. It is your call of course. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table a document presented to the Law and Order Committee. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is objection. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does the Minister have confidence in the advice given to the Law and Order Committee this afternoon by the chief executive of the Department of Corrections that it would not be equitable to compare the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison with the entire public prison system at the same time because the Auckland Central Remand Prison dealt only with remand prisoners? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Unless I actually saw the direct quote myself I could not take for granted that rendition of it from the member because of course he has paraphrased it. I can however have confidence in the quote from the department’s chief who told me that in New South Wales private prisons cost 32 percent less per prisoner than public prisons and in Victoria they cost 11 percent less. That is the comparable figure. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Given that we are talking about New Zealand and not Australia why did the Minister tell the House on 18 August 2009 that Auckland Central Remand Prison’s “equivalent in the public sector cost $61796 per prisoner.” when that is the cost comparison across the entire public prison system which her chief executive has said is not an equivalent or fair comparison? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Because those are the figures given to me by the department. I have said time and time again that it is very difficult to actually compare the remand prison when it was run privately—when there was health treatment and there was all sorts of rehabilitation for 70000 hours a year—with the publicly run prison where there was not. Unfortunately that member does not want to hear the truth but that is what it is. It was a better service. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Given that we now have four documents from the Minister’s department that contradict her is she aware that one of the reasons— 
Hon Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That cannot be allowed. The member started off without a question and made a highly charged political statement rather than simply standing up and asking a question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept the point the honourable member makes that although I have not insisted on questions starting with a question word I think it is very unhelpful when members make a provocative statement at the start of a question. I ask the member to not do that and to ask his question without that. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Could I then get some advice because it is now a fact on the record of the House that there are at least two and I think there was an objection to two other documents— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is not a matter that can be litigated by way of point of order. If the member wants I can go back to insisting questions simply be started with question words. I do not want to do that; I like the House to have more freedom. But the member would be wise not to make a provocative statement at the start of his question. I invite him to ask his question. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Is she aware that one of the reasons it is so difficult to asses the costs of the privately managed Auckland Central Remand Prison is to quote her departmental advice of 10 March 2009 “the lack of visibility on some of the private operators’ information” and will she therefore support the Supplementary Order Papers introduced by Labour that seek to increase the transparency of private prisons? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I think it is important to remember that it was some years ago that the Auckland Central Remand Prison was privately managed. I stick to the advice that we are after a quality service in our prisons not a cheap service. If we were just after cheap nasty services we would put everyone in tents.