Mapp Wayne: State Sector Amendment Bill — In Committee 
Mapp Wayne: State Sector Amendment Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:610;Page:7334] 
Dr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National—North Shore) 
: 
 I had come down to speak on the next bill which is in my particular field but I have been listening to my colleagues and I have been made aware of an appalling process. Through a process of virtual secrecy a whole Government department is being abolished. The Department for Courts ceases to exist. Was there any consultation on that through a select committee process? No there was not. The whole reason for the separation between the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Courts was to separate policy and operations. Surely there needed to be consultation with the profession on such a significant constitutional issue and not just a quiet word saying “This is what we’re going to do; what do you think?” There needed to be a public process before a select committee. 
I have been listening to my colleagues and I have found out that this Supplementary Order Paper which has major consequences not just for the administration of the public service but for the justice system itself was laid on the Table just yesterday. Surely we should have more respect for such things than just to ram this legislation through. There is an argument that the Government could mount to amalgamate the two departments but the right way to do that is to have a dialogue—to talk to the judges and the Law Society and consult the public to find out what people think. After all there is no need to go through with a policy process of change without that because what it invites is a very real suspicion on this side of the House that the Government is simply uninterested in the views of the public especially on something so profound as bringing the courts back into the Ministry of Justice. It invites speculation that the Government has ulterior motives and that it wants a greater level of direction and control over the independent judiciary. 
Just think of the process that is occurring: the existence of the Supreme Court has been established and now we have this amalgamation. What other plans are afoot? Secret plans are being raised by the Government right now in relation to our courts. Who will it appoint to the Court of Appeal? Who will it appoint to the High Court? What is the purpose of this secrecy? Not a single member of the Government has stood and defended this action and explained the reasons for it. Not a single member of the Government has gone out of his or her way to allay the very genuine fears of the public. 
When one thinks about it one sees that it would be quite simple to do that. The Minister could have got up and said: “These are the reasons we are doing it. This is who we have consulted. This is why we are doing it through this process.” That is the very minimum of respect that this House was owed and more important still that is what the public of New Zealand are owed. They should be reasonably able to expect that on issues of this nature—particularly those that involve the constitutional issue of the separation of powers—the Government would have proper respect for consultation and constitutional propriety and that it would allay the concerns I have raised. 
I would like the Minister to get on his feet and say that there are no plans to interfere in the judiciary because he is now required to do that. One cannot put a Supplementary Order Paper into this Parliament with 1 day’s notice and then not explain oneself. That is what the Opposition is asking for. What effectively happens is that the Committee of the whole House is treated as a substitute for the select committee process. It is now our only chance to raise these serious questions and when we do raise them it is reasonable for Ministers to get on their feet and explain themselves fully completely and properly. But there has been virtually none of that—we have had just a few minutes’ explanation at best. This is a shonky procedure. 
David Benson-Pope 
: The member has only just come to the Chamber. 
Dr WAYNE MAPP 
: It is all very well for the senior Government whip to witter on and say: “Well he did that hours ago.” Did the public know that? No. Did the Law Society know that? No.