English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:617;Page:13222] 
5.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) 
: Would he regard evidence of conflicts of interest and potentially fraudulent enrolments as sufficient cause for an independent inquiry into the spending of $105 million on community education last year? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)) 
: 
 I would regard such evidence as a reason to investigate the practices of the provider at which they had occurred. For instance in response to allegation about enrolment practices at the Eastern Institute of Technology the Tertiary Education Commission investigated. It found no evidence of inappropriate enrolment practices. If the member has evidence of conflicts of interest and potentially fraudulent enrolments at any tertiary education provider then the appropriate course of action would be for him to provide that either to me immediately or to the commission. 
Hon Bill English 
: Has the Minister seen material from students who enrolled in Tairawhiti Polytechnic’s traditional Maori healing technique course that states: “We were then asked to complete application forms for te reo Maori. Those present were told that this helped with the funding. We were told it was up to us if we did the free te reo course or not. I received no further communication regarding the te reo Maori course—no booklets or anything else.” and the additional information from the same student stating that in her calculation up to 60 people on the traditional Maori healing technique course were enrolled in the te reo Maori course but none of them did it? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I say I would regard any evidence of anything that was a conflict of interest or potentially fraudulent at any of our tertiary education providers as grounds for swift investigation. If the member wants to give me any additional information he has we will certainly follow it up. [ 
Interruption 
] The member intervenes yet again. He should keep his mouth shut. I say to the member opposite that he should give me the evidence. 
Dr Ashraf Choudhary 
: How is the Government’s management of community education changing? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Community education of course has been around since the beginning of our education system and it plays a very important role within the overall system. Enrolments in the area grew to a proportion last year that I felt deserved attention. Community education enrolments will now be capped. Next year’s funding will be based upon profiles which will then allow us to ensure we are investing in a way that is both appropriate in size and in terms of the kinds of courses that are operated. The point I have made repeatedly is that these things are only possible under the more strategic approach taken by this Government. It would not have been appropriate—or have been able to be done—under the previous Government. 
Jim Peters 
: Bearing in mind that community education should be learning opportunities available to all why did the Minister in the past not expect to receive annual evaluation reports with cumulative data on specified standards for appropriate community education programmes? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The rules or guidelines as they are called around community education were rewritten in 1999. They are being rewritten as we speak because we want to have new guidelines in the profiles that will be filled out by all institutions for their funding in the coming year. But I say to the member that one of the things I would encourage people not to force on community educators which always provide very short courses for people who are either topping up knowledge or beginning their educational career is the kinds of rules that we do in formal courses. The costs would rise and the barriers to people doing these courses would rise. That would be inappropriate and would of course be a break with the kind of education that all members in this House have supported for a very long time. 
Deborah Coddington 
: How can this House take his words seriously about getting tough on fraudulent enrolments and conflict of interest when his Government has been provided with evidence of bounty hunters getting $1000 to enrol pre-schoolers at their own institutions and falsely enrol them at things like wahine coffee mornings when no early childhood students were in existence? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The question is to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) which of course is my particular role. I am sure though that the Minister of Education who is responsible for pre-school education would welcome any more evidence that that member might have and will act on it immediately. 
Bernie Ogilvy 
: Given the probable rort referred to will he consider the reallocation of the tertiary vote into the capped private training establishments and/or student allowances both of those examples being in desperate need of help and contributing greatly to our society? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The member will know that private training educators work within a capped fund. A proportion of that fund is what is called strategic priorities. That fund was not fully expended by private training establishments last year. They are not desperate for funding. They have more than they are using. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Minister aware that his own rules for funding in section 3.1.1.2 of the  
Interim Guide to Tertiary Funding 
 states that no money will be used for enrolment inducements despite the fact that Christchurch Polytechnic on its own admission spent $80000 on enrolment inducements including the case of one gentleman who said on radio yesterday that he enrolled 20 times and claimed $400 in book vouchers? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I am aware of the guidelines around enrolment inducements. The member will know that on a number of occasions claims have been made that have been investigated and proven like at the Eastern Institute of Technology to be false. However where they are proven to be true those guidelines will stand and we will enforce them. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: In terms of complaint why has the Minister not already taken those matters to the Serious Fraud Office when they are at his door—because seriously a fraud has been committed and the value is within the ambit of the Serious Fraud Office’s jurisdiction? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: If a fraud were proven or clearly one that needed to be prosecuted we would do exactly that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: When? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I would do it immediately if I had the evidence of fraud I can guarantee the member that. On a number of occasions questions have been raised for example about the Christchurch Polytechnic. The Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit is well familiar with what has been going on there. The Tertiary Education Commission is currently working with the Christchurch Polytechnic to go through not just these courses but every single course in that organisation to make sure that it fully understands and applies the rules. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why is it that in the face of mounting evidence so far from only two polytechnics of conflict of interest breaking of funding rules and potentially fraudulent enrolments the Minister insists on sending the culprits—that is the Tertiary Education Commission—to investigate the problem and why does he not get someone independent to do that who was not involved in making the payments claims and endorsing the conflicts of interest? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Unlike the member whose job in Opposition is to try to create heat where it does not exist I want evidence. I am not about to begin any kind of stupid witch-hunt on the basis of Mr English’s sayings here in the House. What I am guaranteeing is that unlike the previous Government we are controlling spending and putting funding into strategic areas. Unlike the previous Government we have the ability to investigate those issues. The previous Government never could because it followed a model that would not have allowed it to do so.