Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:611;Page:8195] 
7.  
RODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: On what date did Te Mangai Paho’s former Chief Executive Mr Trevor Moeke discover that Mr Tame Te Rangi had received cash from Maori Sportscasting International and who were the officials responsible for advising him on his reply to question for written answer No. 257 provided on 24 February where he stated: “I am advised by my officials that there have been no payments of cash by Maori Sportscasting International to any employees of Te Mangai Paho.”? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 I am advised by my officials that the former chief executive could not confirm that any cash payments were made until the external review into the activities concerning Mr Te Rangi commenced in March 2003. When questioned by the former chief executive on previous occasions Mr Te Rangi denied receiving any payments. Officials responsible for the original answers were from Te Mangai Paho. 
Rodney Hide 
: How does he square the answer he has just given with the emails he has released to me under the Official Information Act from Mr Trevor Moeke to Tame Te Rangi and the replies which state that on 21 February Mr Tame Te Rangi advised Trevor Moeke that he had been receiving cash from Maori Sportscasting International? I repeat that this Minister released those emails to me under the Official Information Act. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Quite simply at that time nobody informed the Minister. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I ask you to reflect on that answer to my question. The Minister has clearly given an incorrect answer to my primary question where he stated that Mr Trevor Moeke did not know. I then pointed out that Trevor Moeke did know on 21 February. I asked him what was going on and he just flicked it away and said that no one told the Minister. If that were the standard this Minister would not answer any questions in this House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister addressed the question. 
Darren Hughes 
: What feedback did he receive on the external review concerning Tame Te Rangi which was undertaken by Te Puni Kokiri and Treasury? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I know that Mr Rodney Hide wrote to both the Secretary to the Treasury and the chief executive of Te Puni Kokiri to thank them and the joint team for the very good work they did in preparing the report dated 4 June 2003. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Again I draw your attention to the fact that Trevor Mallard yelled out very loudly while the Minister was on his feet answering his question—so loudly that we could hear him at the back of the House. When the Hon Dr Nick Smith did that he was ejected from the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please be seated. I have not ruled out interjections while answers are being given at all. There will be no interjections during the question. The member knows that and he should keep quiet. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Before he released the emails can the Minister recall reading that the response that Mr Hide has just reported in his question was in response to a request from his officials that said these words: “The Minister would like to know who the staff member was from TMP and what events were attended. The answer will not be included in the response but the Minister would like to know in case he is asked.” and can he explain to the House how he could possibly have given two incorrect answers subsequently to a question for which the officials had clearly requested information to give to him? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: There were corrections on 11 June and the Minister is only as good as the officials’ advice. 
Rodney Hide 
: Can the Minister explain why he told the House on 24 February in answer to a written question that his officials had advised him that no cash had been paid to any employee of Te Mangai Paho when he has released to me an email from Mr Trevor Moeke to Mr Tame Te Rangi that says: “Re PQ257 thanks. What were the amounts in detail and in total and how were the payments made?” and Tame Te Rangi replied: “The payments were cash. I have no recollection of the amounts.”? That email was on 21 February; the Minister answered falsely on 24 February. Is this another example of this Government and this Minister with officials lying in unison? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will stand withdraw and apologise right now for any suggestion that any member of this House is telling a lie. 
Rodney Hide 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister can address any part of the question but not that part. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: As that member knows when he first waved around the supposed emails he had containing that information that was advice given to me. It was followed through at that time. I released all the information to him which took hours of officials time. All of that is in the report and he knows that full well. 
Rodney Hide 
: I seek leave of the House to table the emails that took no time to assemble because the Treasury had done that as part of its brief. They were released by his ministry and he pretends not to know about them. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table those emails. Is there any objection? There is. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I just want to get a clearer picture on your ruling that suggests that Mr Hide could not use the term “lying in unison” to suggest that members of this House were lying. If I recall his question he certainly did say “if Ministers and officials”—in other words Ministers and officials “lying in unison”. The point I want to make is that increasingly we are being told by Ministers that it is the fault of officials or that officials acted without ministerial authority or that officials have gone off and done something unbeknown to the Minister. We know from the record that the term “lying in unison” was suggested by a group of officials. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please come to the point very tersely. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I am coming to my point very tersely. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well no the member is not— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: If we are not allowed to associate a bureaucrat suggesting to other bureaucrats that to protect the Minister the way through the issue is to lie in unison then where is the line between accountability for departmental matters and a Minister’s responsibility? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is perfectly entitled to suggest that. What the member was ruled out of order for was associating the Minister with lying and that is out of order. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: That is exactly the point I am making. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well that is out of order and if there is any suggestion that the Minister is lying there is a particular way of writing to me about that matter where the Minister is accountable.