Willis Scott; White Helen; Bidois DanSCOTT WILLIS (Green): Thank you Madam Chair and I want to congratulate the member Dan Bidois yet again for shepherding the Fair Trading (Gift Card Expiry) Amendment Bill through the Economic Development Science and Innovation Committee in such a capable way. I'm here really to reflect that this is an inconsequential bill in many respects but nevertheless you've given it great care and carried it through and we are here debating it. I do think we could be talking about things like you know de-carbonising our electricity system or having more clean cars etc. But here we are and so I am pleased that we are going to get this bill sorted once and for all.I just want to think about the subpart 3A the gift card expiry dates. It is such a detail but if we are in such detail why not go there? Because I don't want to deny the member the pleasure of explaining in full this bill and I do think it has been worked through it has been considered it has been tossed back and forth. I actually feel as though it is part of my family now—not a friendly part of the family; not a confrontational one either. So when we look at new section 36WC Expiry date must appear prominently on the gift card" what is that going to look like? I don't really care. But we do need to know that it's got to be there somewhere and you know it sort of says it's got to be there in some way shape or form but I do remember this being a part of the conversation that we wanted to make sure because we're making a change people knew what they were buying they knew when it would end and they did not as my mother-in-law will do and forget about it in a drawer as other people would do.I know that many members here don't use gift cards; they prefer cash but for those people who do for those people who care about these things—there are some people even in the House who care about these things clearly—how are we going to know? How are we going to be able to see very clearly what the expiry date is? I'm sure the member will be able to give a really good account of just how we'll do that and why this is just so important.HELEN WHITE (Labour—Mt Albert): Thank you Madam Chair. First of all congratulations to the member and to my friend Melissa Lee who was earlier the one who had this bill drawn.While I agree that it's really important we deal with climate change and many very important issues I know that this is an issue that will impact on people because it's hard earned money that's there.I also note after the discussions that were just had in this committee session that the supermarkets when we asked them how much money they had actually—Dr Vanessa Weenink: Point of order Madam Chair. Sorry Madam Chair. The clock wasn't—CHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh): Restarted? Oh they've done it now. Thank you very much.HELEN WHITE: Thank you. We asked them how much money is actually being lost to consumers through these cards. They actually wouldn't disclose that information because it was confidential. So we actually don't know how much slippage there is that goes to our supermarkets which are making quite big profits at the moment.One of the stories that was told—I think it was pre this but it was brought up as part of the prep that we did for this—was Mobil putting an expiry date of one year on a $1500 petrol voucher that had all that money for a long time and if somebody loses it overnight—it's a big deal to a family to lose that.So I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that while this was passed by the majority which means that it was supported by most parties in this House; it was not supported by ACT. ACT in its statement say that we must leave it to business. So I'd like the member in charge of the bill to explain why we might not leave it to business in this case why this might be a real problem for people.I'd also like while I'm here to ask for a comment on the penalties because this was a piece of work that as a select committee we did make quite a radical change in. We have put in quite a high penalty here for not abiding by this. So I would like the member to address that and get a chance to explain that because that was a situation where it really was discussed and a decision was made to put in quite a high penalty. My understanding of that is we put in a higher penalty because people do calculate—well we'd like to believe everybody is well meaning. People do calculate sometimes and leave these things out and people do get hurt. So I would like to hear the member's view of why we are doing that.I'd also like to have a little bit of commentary if possible on the transition period because we did make a decision in the committee that this would be a bill which we would give an 18-month transition period to after Royal assent. So why does the member believe that that was a good idea? Why did we do it?Finally I just want to draw—actually I think the member has addressed the issue of charitable purpose so I'll leave it there but thank you.DAN BIDOIS (National—Northcote): Thank you Madam Chair and thank you members for your questions. To the member from the Green Party's questions around the expiry date the bill sets out very clearly in new section 36WC the rules for all issuing of gift cards—essentially that they must display those expiry dates very clearly. At least one of the following: the expiry date the month and year of gift card access the date the gift card is sold or the words "no expiry date". So it's quite clear the rules and requirements for businesses and organisations that are selling gift cards and what should be presented.To the member's question of course yes this isn't solving climate change or improving the productivity of this country but it is about fairness and it is about making sure that we are doing everything possible to help Kiwis through a cost of living crisis. So it is a small change it is a good change and I would certainly encourage all parties in the Chamber to support this bill.To Helen White's questions in terms of the minority report from the ACT Party if I just go to their key arguments that the minority report essentially had and I'll address those in turn. So one is around the unnecessary burden that it places on businesses. Well we actually have heard in select committee—and I've heard from businesses who actually are really supportive of this change and it going through. That it takes away the ability to manage liabilities and financial sustainability: well we've actually heard that by putting clear rules around expiry dates that in fact businesses will be able to have a clear understanding of their liabilities on their balance sheet because of such an expiry date in the future. And with respect to leaving it to businesses to decide this look again it is a simple change that businesses and consumers want. We require all sorts of things from businesses whether it's the way they set themselves up the reporting requirements this is simply a very small requirement for the number of businesses that are involved in the production and selling of gift cards to the country. So that addresses the minority report.The second thing that the member Helen White mentioned was around the penalties. This was well-traversed in the select committee. The penalty regime puts an up-to limit on it that the Commerce Commission will then be able to determine. So the maximum amounts are high and I'll just go to the section itself which refers to it. The maximum amounts around the infringements are up to $10000 for an individual and up to $30000 for a body corporate. And that may sound quite high but it'll ultimately be for the regulator to determine the nature and the gravity of such an offence and have an appropriate response and infringement because of that.The next the member had just in my remaining minute was around the transition period. So we've given a transition period for businesses of 18 months. Now for most businesses that was actually about the time that they wanted. There are businesses that would like a little bit more time but who I am confident will adjust to the change. So that's why we extended it to 18 months to allow for businesses to update their systems to update their training manuals and to make sure they get rid of their existing stock of gift cards because those are the ones that actually will not have expiry dates on them."