Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Sitting date: 16 October 2012. Volume:684;Page:5805. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
7. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister responsible for the GCSB 
: What were the dates of the three cases that the Government Communications Security Bureau audit highlighted because they could not assure him “that the legal position is totally clear” as referred to in his statement of 3 October 2012? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Minister responsible for the GCSB) 
: 
 I do not believe it is in the public interest to release the dates of these cases which have been referred to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security for review. It is not yet clear whether there is an issue of illegality with the cases and I encourage the members not to jump to conclusions until the status of the cases is clear. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Why is it that when illegal spying on Kim Dotcom came to light the Minister stated that Sir Jerry Mateparae was not in charge of the Government Communications Security Bureau while it went on yet now by not naming the dates he is refusing to identify who was in charge of the Government Communications Security Bureau? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: In the case of the decision made by the Government Communications Security Bureau that the particular surveillance on Kim Dotcom was illegal that was a known fact at that point so it became important I thought to clarify that matter. In these other cases it is far from certain whether there is an issue or not. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Given that the Prime Minister by failing to answer this question has thrown a question mark over the Governor-General’s role at the Government Communications Security Bureau and that this now means that this scandal has dragged in the Prime Minister and several Ministers including the Minister of Police is that not another reason for an independent inquiry to clear up the mess under his watch and also to clear Sir Jerry’s name? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: No. 
Grant Robertson 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that a camera capable of taking audiovisual material was on a tripod in the staff cafeteria at the Government Communications Security Bureau when he spoke to staff on 29 February? 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I cannot confirm it but I am advised that there was a camera there. There could certainly be a camera capable of taking a video—absolutely right. So let us go through that for the purposes of ensuring that his leader really hangs himself— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was a straight question and the Prime Minister answered it by confirming that. That was good. 
Hon Members 
: Point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will hear the Rt Hon Prime Minister first. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: I have not finished my answer. There is a very specific and clear and non-political point I need to make to finish my answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the Prime Minister should have the opportunity to do that to put an answer in context but that should not involve attacking another party. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: When allegations were made by the Leader of the Opposition— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Here we go. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: —that there was a tape—no I am just running through the details—taken by the people of the Government Communications Security Bureau and I have referred to the quotes earlier and he then went on to say that tape had been erased I took those allegations very seriously. I went to the head of the Government Communications Security Bureau. He firstly went through the use of the tape. It was used on 21 February and then not used again until April. The bureau then went to every camera operator that it has including some who are currently posted overseas and confirmed that they did not take any audiovisual or video of me. Thirdly we went through— 
Grant Robertson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! This is a point of order. 
Grant Robertson 
: I asked a specific question to confirm the specific fact and the Prime Minister has done that. He has now gone well beyond that answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I think in—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! I am on my feet. I think in fairness—I accept absolutely that it was a very specific question but were the Prime Minister to answer it just like for example as I understand it “Yes.” he could be creating an impression that a live camera was operating at the time. I do not think it is unreasonable for the Minister—in this case the Prime Minister—answering a question to have the chance to in answering the question give further information as to whether or not there was any chance that the camera was actually operational at the time. I do not think that is unreasonable because if we are genuinely interested in the real facts and the truth that cannot be wrong. What would be wrong would be to restrict the Minister’s answer in a way that implied something else. That is why I will not allow the Prime Minister to attack the Leader of the Opposition but if he gives information around that camera I see nothing wrong with that. 
Rt Hon JOHN KEY 
: Just to recap a situation was taken where we looked at the logs of when the camera was used. We then looked at the situation about speaking to every one of the camera operators to ask them whether they ever used the camera. They had not. The head of the Government Communications Security Bureau then went on to look at all of the logs about whether there was any deletion of any audio material. There was not. To satisfy himself—and let us understand this: this is a spy agency; we do not delete things; we archive them—they went right back to the ultimate source document and asked themselves that question: has there ever been a deletion? The answer was no. There was no tape taken by the Government Communications Security Bureau. The Leader of the Opposition— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! No I think—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! It was perfectly reasonable for the Prime Minister to be able to put that answer in context but he should not go on now to criticise the Leader of the Opposition. Question—[ 
Interruption 
] Order!