Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:624;Page:19156] 
8.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade 
: Does New Zealand require Israeli citizens to hold a visa to visit New Zealand in a private capacity? 
Hon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade) 
: 
 Most Israeli citizens wishing to visit New Zealand for tourist or private purposes enjoy visa-free entry. However following efforts by Israeli agents to acquire New Zealand passports fraudulently Israeli officials who wish to visit New Zealand have been required to apply for visas and a stay has been put on high-level visits pending satisfactory resolution of the passport affair. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In view of the New Zealand Government’s policy since last July to scrutinise and challenge only Israelis visiting New Zealand in any official Government capacity why was Gabi Ashkenazi’s visa application declined when it was made very clear that his intention was to visit New Zealand in a private capacity to address a private function of the New Zealand Jewish community in Auckland last Sunday evening? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: If the member had read the statement of 15 July that he quoted from he would have seen that the first bullet point stated that New Zealand is suspending high-level visits from and to Israel. If the deputy chief of staff of the Israeli army is not a high-level visit then perhaps the member would like to explain to the House what it is. 
Martin Gallagher 
: Has the Government received any indication from the Israel Government of its willingness to resolve the outstanding issues relating to fraudulent acquisition of passports? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: Yes. An approach has been made by the Israeli Government in response to New Zealand’s requirement for an apology for the illegal action of its agents and an assurance that no such actions will reoccur. We are hopeful of progress being made towards the resolution of these issues so that this unfortunate matter can be put behind us. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Did the Minister of Immigration consult with him as Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade and/or with the Prime Minister before deciding to decline Major General Gabi Ashkenazi’s visa application? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I take responsibility for making that decision. I made that decision in line with the publicly announced policy by the Government on 15 July—a policy that was overwhelmingly supported by New Zealanders while that member’s party acted as a cringing apologist for the illegal and criminal actions of those agents. 
Rodney Hide 
: Rubbish! 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: It is on record—and Mr Hide is one of the chief culprits for that cringing apologist stance taken by ACT. 
Dail Jones 
: What response has the Minister received from the group that would be hearing from the deputy chief of staff as to the action of the Israeli Government and the Israeli agents’ fraudulent activities in relation to New Zealand passports—for example has that group ever said to the Government that it was deeply upset by the behaviour of the Israeli Government’s activists? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I have not heard directly from the group the member refers to but I would imagine that any New Zealand citizen would be deeply offended at criminal actions being taken in our country by agents of a Government that has been friendly to New Zealand in the past. That is not on. We have taken a resolute stance and every party in this House has supported it except the 1.7 percent ACT party which is on its way out and is in any case irrelevant. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Will the Minister concede that those involved in trying improperly to obtain a New Zealand passport have already been punished by the New Zealand courts and that the real reason an Israeli citizen was declined a visa was that it was yet another opportunity given the visit of the socialist Prime Minister of Norway to demonstrate to Helen Clark’s friends that under Helen Clark this Government is just as anti— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I think it is important not to cause diplomatic offence. The Prime Minister of Norway is a Christian Democrat not a socialist. 
Simon Power 
: On a number of occasions during question time today senior Government Ministers have taken the opportunity to fling personal abuse at questioners during their answers to those questions. We now see during Mr Prebble’s question that Government members are able to barrack and interject while he asked his question. It will be very difficult for whips and shadow leaders to keep order on this side of the House unless those matters are addressed. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: There is a longstanding understanding in this House that members do not interject during a question and that is exactly what the Leader of the House did. He certainly knows better and I am very surprised that on that basis you as Speaker actually accepted that point of order. He should have been stood down straight away. If he had a point of order to make he should have made it at the conclusion of the question. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I am prepared to accept the correction by the Deputy Prime Minister. Some people would say that all Scandinavians are socialists but I am prepared to withdraw that remark. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I accept that you should have been allowed to finish. There should not have been an interjection. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I want to speak to this because it is quite an important point. We have got into the habit in this House of raising points of order rather late after the event has occurred. If one wants to raise a point of order on a matter that is within a question the point of order has to be raised at that point not at the end of the question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Members should not interject during a question. However I take the point that they should at the first opportunity after that raise their point of order. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Would the Minister concede that those involved in trying to obtain a passport improperly have already been punished by our courts and is not the real reason that an Israeli citizen has been refused a visa yet another opportunity for this Government to show the Scandinavians that under Helen Clark New Zealand is now as pro Palestinian and anti Israeli as the Scandinavians and indeed the same reason that the Minister himself crossed half the world in order to shake terrorist Yasser Arafat by the hand? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: There are a number of questions so let me address each one. First of all they did not improperly acquire it; they criminally fraudulently acquired it—and that again is being an apologist for people who commit criminal acts. Secondly with regard to the fact that they have been punished already I note that the member at the time said—to quote from his letter—that the best option was to carpet the Israeli Government privately and read the riot act to them. That would of course have required the State to interfere in the judicial process to stop the independent judicial process from prosecuting the agents. Thirdly and finally New Zealand’s stance with regard to the Palestinian question and the dispute between Israel and the Palestinians is in line with the mainstream of international opinion including every country in the 25-member European Union—countries whose human rights records we are proud to stand alongside. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I am trying to be helpful to the Minister. He said he was going to answer every point. Why was he shaking Yasser Arafat’s hand? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order.