Sepuloni Carmel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Sepuloni Carmel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:655;Page:4452] 
8.  
CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Does she stand by her statement “Having been on the receiving end of the DPB and knowing what it was to live from day to day and struggle there is no way that was the future I wanted for me … That’s the sort of ambition and goals I want to bring to other DPB women” when making decisions regarding policy that may affect beneficiaries especially solo parents; if so why? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Yes I do and it is something I stand by. I thank the member for raising it again so that we can put it out there as a level of aspiration. 
Carmel Sepuloni 
: Why then was the training incentive allowance good enough for her to take as a solo parent but now is not good enough for her to give out as the Minister for Social Development and Employment and how can she cut solo parents off from an opportunity that was essential in assisting her to receive further education? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: It may surprise that member because I am older than I probably look to know that it was quite some time ago when I was at university and receiving a benefit. We are in different times. These are times when we are making decisions— 
Hon Members 
: Oh! 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Listen up: it is called a recession. A recession is what it is called and we make decisions accordingly. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am struggling to hear the Minister. The members’ colleague asked a question; I am sure she would like to hear the answer. I am struggling to hear it. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I can assure that side of the House— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There was quite a lot of it that I did not hear. Could we ask that she start again? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister has been asked to commence her answer again. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: The other side of the House may not realise that we are in a recession and we are in tough economic times. This means that we are making decisions accordingly and $22.5 million will be spent on the training incentive allowance in the next year. We have not cut the training incentive allowance; we have merely changed the level. I think that is about fairness and about being responsible at this time. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister appeared to make a most inappropriate one-fingered gesture as she sat down. I think Ron Mark got into serious problems when he made a similar gesture. It certainly appeared to members on this side that that was what the Minister did as she sat down. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I actually take— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The House is very disorderly today. Would members have a little decorum please. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I actually take huge offence at that. There is no way that there was any hand gesture. There was a lot of ribbing coming from the other side which I take in good humour— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is sufficient. The Minister has denied any such gesture. Point of order the Hon Trevor Mallard. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Do you want to deal with the comment that was just made to you? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have invited the Hon Trevor Mallard to raise his point of order. I am waiting for him to do so. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: The first point of order Mr Speaker is I take objection on the House’s behalf to your being referred to in that way by Phil Heatley. I ask you to deal with that first. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The honourable member sought to raise a point of order prior to an unwise interjection by Mr Heatley and I invite him to raise that point of order with me. If he does not wish to we will go on to a supplementary question from Katrina Shanks. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I do not mind doing it in a different order Mr Speaker although it would have been simpler to do it the other way. The first point of order that I stood to raise with you is in light of a letter that you have written to me on a question of privilege dated earlier this month but received yesterday where you outline the circumstances in which you accept a breach of privilege. I ask whether if the television footage shows a gesture from the Minister it will in fact be a breach of privilege. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Oh! 
Hon Bill English 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any assistance. An experienced member like that knows that he cannot raise a matter like that under a point of order. He cannot raise an issue of privilege under a point of order and he should know that well. I do not think we need to take further time on this. It is— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The other point of order is about the way that Phil Heatley addressed you during my last point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister’s behaviour was quite inappropriate in interjecting when a point of order had been called. I accept that but as far as I was concerned it did not impede my paying attention to the member. That is where the matter will lie although I warn Mr Heatley not to do that sort of thing in the future. 
Katrina Shanks 
: Has the Minister seen any recent reports on the number of people moving off the domestic purposes benefit? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I was shocked to discover that over the past 2 years nearly 1000 people have moved off the domestic purposes benefit directly on to New Zealand superannuation. Although some of those people would have been caring for the sick or infirm it leaves around 800 sole parents spending the best years of their lives trapped in the welfare system. We intend to intervene earlier to support people back to independence. 
Carmel Sepuloni 
: Is the Minister aware of the research that highlights the correlation between a mother’s level of achievement and the subsequent levels of achievement that are attained by her respective children; if so why would she limit access to the training incentive allowance so that sole parents undertaking higher-level qualifications such as diplomas and degrees are no longer eligible? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: May I make it clear that what we are actually changing is the level of course. Sole parents can get the training incentive allowance to do a national certificate in journalism for example or a certificate in advanced welding or a certificate in aged care. We are supporting those people to do foundation courses or other certificates; when they get to university and are at university level then they are on an even playing field with all other students. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Did the Minister receive a training incentive allowance; if so did she use her experience on it to argue against cutting that allowance? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am not sure the Minister has ministerial responsibility for whether she once received an allowance. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I think she has responsibility to use her experience her life experience when she is cutting off a ladder that was available— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat immediately. The member cannot use points of order to try to score political points. That is totally out of order and I warn the honourable member that I will not tolerate it in the future. The House has been very disorderly today and points of order will not be abused in that way. I gave the member the courtesy of not ruling out his question and of allowing him to justify the question. I am now ruling it out full stop. That question will not be answered and we will go on to the next question. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I ask for a considered ruling on this point of order when you have had a chance to reflect upon it. I think it is fair to say that members on this side of the House have in general appreciated your good humour in this House and your willingness to listen to points of order and indeed to introduce new practice around Ministers and members responding to questions. But Mr Speaker you will have noticed that members on this side have been getting somewhat touchy of late and I submit to you that as you follow your normal practice today of reviewing the tape of today’s question time you might want to consider the fact that you have now in a short space of time threatened one of my colleagues with expulsion from the House— 
Hon Members 
: Oh! 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Mr Speaker I understand that an interjection has been made during my point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will continue with his point of order. I am listening to him carefully. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: In relation to my colleague Mr Mallard he did not raise a point of order. He was raising a supplementary question to the Minister which you then sought to rule out. It is the same Minister who has been on the front page of the  
Listener 
 in which magazine she tells the same story that the member has referred to. My point of order is not specific to that matter but to implore you—because you are a member and Speaker of great good conscience—as you reflect on today’s session to ask whether there has been a fair balance in your rulings on members from the two sides of the House. I think it is the feeling of the Opposition that there has not been a fair balance. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: We will not take this any further. What I will do instead is apologise to the Hon Trevor Mallard because I accept the point that the honourable member has made. Where he in my view took the matter too far was not on a point of order. I apologise unreservedly to the Hon Trevor Mallard for my criticism that he was abusing a point of order. However we have moved on.