Little Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLittle Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 16 February 2016. Volume:711;Page:8974. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]3.ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement regarding Labour’s fees-free post-school study policy that “the question will simply be that if it is completely free will there be any control on the quality”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes.Andrew Little: Given that answer is he saying that when he went to university for free there was no quality control?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: There may well have been better control back then but I tell you what when Labour got into office and had the sorts of policies it is advocating now there was an explosion in low-quality part-time courses with very poor completion rates and the member knows that is the case.Andrew Little: Putting aside courses on homeopathy for pets and iridology which appeared under his Government is he saying that it is a good thing that some people cannot afford a qualification even though that gives them a chance for the Kiwi Dream?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Far from that what the Government is saying is that if one looks at the current situation with tertiary education on balance about 70 percent or maybe as high as 80 percent of the costs are actually met by the taxpayers other than the individual. Yet we know that the person when they go to university and complete their tertiary qualification actually earns a lot more money. On balance I do not think it is unreasonable for someone who is going to earn about 46 percent more than the median wage after 5 years should actually pay that 20 or 30 percent. I think that balance is about right.Andrew Little: Does he not accept that it is just a little bit hypocritical for him with his free education and no student debt to claim that people who do not pay fees will not study hard?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No.Tim Macindoe: In light of the primary question does the Prime Minister stand by his statement regarding Labour’s policy that “Under Andrew Little Labour has become the TPP—the ‘Two Position Party’.”?Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Although the question does in fact open up questions on Labour’s education policy it certainly does not open up questions on other aspects of the Labour Party policy which that supplementary question was getting to.Mr SPEAKER: I need no further assistance. On this particular occasion I agree with the point raised by Chris Hipkins. That question is designed to do nothing else but to attack the Labour Party. I do acknowledge that the original question did mention the policy in the first place.David Seymour: How much more rapidly has the median New Zealand house price risen than the average student loan over the past 3 years?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I do not know but I suspect it is a terrible amount.David Seymour: I seek leave to table a back-of-envelope calculation—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will resume his seat. Raising points of order like that leads to more disorder and I would hate at this early stage of this parliamentary year to be asking the member to leave the Chamber for that reason.Andrew Little: In light of the analysis out today from Universities New Zealand that when a person goes into a job like IT engineering marketing or science they are going to pay more than 10 times the fees they paid for their education is it not better to be investing more in people to get qualifications?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The member is in serious risk of blowing both of his feet off. That is exactly the point: at the moment people do go to university they are not stopped they get a free student loan—Hon Members: A free student loan!Rt Hon JOHN KEY: They do go out and pay more taxes and—a zero percent student loan—why the hell should they get somebody on low income’s cross-subsidising? [Interruption] That is exactly the point. The system is working.Tim Macindoe: In light of the primary question does the Prime Minister stand by his recent statements about all of Labour’s recent announcements?Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. If the supplementary question was specific to the primary question in relation to the quote that Andrew Little used in his primary question that question may have been in order. But the Prime Minister has no responsibility for all of the policy announcements that the Labour Party has made.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee.Hon Gerry Brownlee: The primary question asks whether the Prime Minister stands by his statement regarding Labour policies.Chris Hipkins: No a specific Labour policy.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well all right a specific—Mr SPEAKER: Order! This is a point of order—[Interruption] Order! Can we just be clear. This is a point of order being raised by Gerry Brownlee and it will be heard in silence.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Mr Speaker to be clear I am speaking to the point of order raised by Chris Hipkins which was the result of his shooting himself in the foot by lodging the question in the first place. The question says: “Does he stand by his statements regarding Labour’s free post-school study policy”. If the ruling would be that you cannot ask for a general question based off that about Labour policy then it would assume that we can ask specific questions about specific Labour policy positions. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! If the Minister is keen to stay for the balance of question time I suggest he also does not interrupt. I am going to allow this question. It was a very general question about the Prime Minister standing by his statements as I heard it but if in the answer I detect that it is being used simply as a means of attacking the Opposition I will then be inclined to close the answer down very quickly.Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Part-way through the Leader of the House’s point of order I expected you to either interrupt him or ask him to actually come to the point of order. If it is now legitimate for us to insult other members during points of order we are happy to participate in that process—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] I do not need any assistance from either member. The member might have noticed that I did interrupt the Minister through his point of order only because I was dealing with a number of interjections from this side. The point of order has been heard; my ruling has been given. I will not ask for the question to be repeated but I will be listening very carefully to the Prime Minister’s answer. If I see it leading down a path where it is simply attacking the Opposition I will then deal with it.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes I do stand by all my statements and I think it is worth recapping those. At the moment the taxpayer pays about 70 to 80 percent of the tertiary education of someone who goes on to earn on average a lot more in New Zealand. To me that balance seems about right. Having no controls on the sorts of courses that would be promoted under the sorts of policies we have seen announced in recent times would actually lead to low-quality courses that would largely be part-time for which the completion rates would be very low. The reality is that it is a dog of a policy.David Seymour: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the correct answer to my earlier question was a ratio of 2.8 and does he believe that young people should be far more worried about rises in median house prices than rises in student loans?Mr SPEAKER: Either of those two supplementary questions the right honourable Prime Minister.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: On the basis that the member is a very gifted member whom I offered a warrant—and he turned it down—and it would therefore have only been offered if he had true ability I will accept him at his word that it is 2.8 percent.Andrew Little: Is the Prime Minister so out of touch with the real world that he cannot see that student debt is a barrier to people getting post-school qualifications; why would he not want to do something about that?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: It is an interesting thought to say that student loans are a barrier to people going to university because thousands and thousands tens of thousands of people are. We have seen a lot more people completing high-quality and tertiary qualifications under this Government; the bulk of people who go actually earn more over time; people actually do complete degrees that are worth it; and if the member is saying those things are not true he is philosophically saying that a policy that was supported for 9 years through a Labour Government was totally and utterly wrong. All he is doing here is trying to change the line between the taxpayer paying 70 or 80 percent to higher—and actually that will be paid for by lower-income New Zealanders the logic of which defies me.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The answer is quite long enough.Andrew Little: Is this not the truth that he has been penny-pinching rather than investing in New Zealanders’ future; he is locking New Zealanders out of the Kiwi Dream; and only the Labour Party has the courage and the ideas to fix the problem?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The truth of it is that this is a policy that was announced on the Sunday and sank faster than the Titanic. This is the party that told us that all it cares about is the Trans-Pacific Partnership but it knows it is getting ripped apart on it and does not like it. It has been a horrible start to the year for the Labour Party it really has. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! That is enough now.