te Heuheu Georgina: Criminal Justice Reform Bill — In Committee 
te Heuheu Georgina: Criminal Justice Reform Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:640;Page:10210] 
Hon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National) 
: 
 I guess it is very unusual that my colleague Dr Mapp should use such a phrase but in reality that was a very good description of what the Government is doing here quite frankly. The Minister in the chair Mark Burton has come into the Chamber since we started this debate. I for one as I was not on the Justice and Electoral Committee and have not had the benefit of the discussions that Charles Chauvel referred us to would be extremely grateful if the Minister would take a call and explain to National members why this legislation which sets up a Sentencing Council is necessary. On the face of it and on my reading through the detail of it there is no logical reason why we should remove from the legislature from Parliament the responsibility for setting a sentencing framework and placing it with the judiciary which has the responsibility for applying that framework and setting the sentences. There is no logical reason why that should be changed. 
I do agree with colleagues of mine who have described this part of the Criminal Justice Reform Bill as a threat to judicial independence. National stands by our judiciary. We stand by the judiciary. The cornerstones that make New Zealand’s judicial system a very good system ought not to be removed or changed in the way that this Government is doing. As I say I would very much appreciate the Minister’s taking a call to explain not just to us but also to New Zealanders out there who may be listening to this debate why the Government sees fit to set up what on the face of it is another bureaucracy. This Government is great at doing that; it is just not necessary in this context. The Government is setting up a quango or setting up what Simon Power described as the district health board of the justice system. That is how it looks to National. We oppose this part vehemently. Any legislation that could get my mild-mannered colleague Dr Mapp to describe it in the way that he did is bad legislation. 
When the Government member spoke it all sounded very good and very academic but I am frankly surprised that he with his legal background would support a change of this description. I have not heard from a New Zealand First speaker yet but it seemed to me when I listened to the interjections that Ron Mark was making on a couple of my colleagues that the New Zealand First members possibly support this legislation as well. It would be great if New Zealand First’s MP with a legal background the Rt Hon Winston Peters could come to the Chamber and explain to members why he thinks New Zealand First should support such a change. In his time he has been a strong supporter of the judicial system and the cornerstones that make up the integrity of that system. I would be very very surprised if New Zealand First members were now to put that kind of positioning behind them and support this bill. 
This bill is an outrage. In terms of the Sentencing Council it is an outrage. We the Parliament and we the legislature have the responsibility for setting the framework. Members of the judiciary who after all are the people who are most acquainted with the matters that come before them are the ones who for a long time now in our system have applied the sentencing rules. As I say we cannot stress enough our opposition to this measure. I commend my colleague Christopher Finlayson for trying to make this part of the bill more palatable. He recognises entirely and totally the role that the judiciary plays in sentencing which is a hugely important activity in our system. In trying to make this part palatable he has at least endeavoured to keep that role fairly and squarely within the judiciary. 
National supports the current system. National stands by our judiciary. We cannot see the reason for this part of the bill. I see the Minister is looking at me and smiling I think so I can only take that to mean he may stand and take a call.