McClay Todd; Bridges Simon; Dean JacquiHon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): The word productivity" has been used a lot in the House today. And if increasing productivity in the economy in New Zealand is as easy as they say which is just spending more money then New Zealand will be the most productive country in the world because this Government is borrowing $200 billion to spend when others are also having to borrow money in their businesses and in their homes to spend and nobody is actually earning more. The way we become more productive is to produce more for the average amount of work that is done. Now the last speaker Marja Lubeck and the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety purposefully oversimplify what this legislation is about because it will not increase productivity. It doesn't mean that on this side of the House we don't believe that when people are ill or they're sick they should be forced to work. Indeed they're not—in New Zealand at the moment. But to come to the House and say to all businesses in New Zealand "But you already know about this because we talked about it in the campaign and you've got a year or so probably to get used to it. And don't worry by increasing the cost upon businesses in New Zealand with this measure alone by $1 billion"—that they will have to find somehow—"you will be more productive." suggests to me that actually the definition of "productivity" in the Labour Party is one that no business person in New Zealand shares. For that last member and the Minister to come here and lecture about looking after employees versus employers and who's better at that and who's not misses the point that when you impose cost upon business and those businesses can't absorb it any more because the Government continues to put cost on them—when employees leave they can't afford to re-employ again; jobs are not created. Here's the thing. The way to make somebody better off is through work not through not having a job and before COVID we saw job growth in our economy slow significantly to some months when it was negative. The Government hasn't got a plan to create jobs because they're not looking to work with businesses who help grow the economy and they're also looking to pile cost on that in the end won't be good for employees who haven't got jobs. So here's an international organisation that studies this stuff around the world. The IMF has just produced a report that projects that on present economic settings in New Zealand New Zealand incomes by 2025 will be lower than they are today. Yet in the House today there is an announcement of doubling sick leave to increase productivity. Last week we heard that actually the Minister the new Minister is not ruling out accepting the Helen Clark's Foundation's proposal to increase the minimum wage to the living wage next year with the concept of "predistribution". But nobody knows what the predistribution is except a small-business man that is not making money this year that had to borrow during the lockdown through no fault of their own that's seeing cost upon cost imposed on them by the Government. They're not sure how they're going to survive. They're actually probably eventually going to have to reduce their workforce because they can't keep increasing their costs because consumers can't afford that. And the predistribution model that the Minister's signing up to because he said he's going to look next year at moving the minimum wage to the living wage is that you tax somebody and redistribute it before it has been earned and that won't do anything for productivity at all. Five years of no income growth in New Zealand is what the IMF is predicting based on current economic settings in New Zealand and that means those that have the least will be able to afford even less come 2025. There are 200000 New Zealanders out of work. Those New Zealanders are more interested in how they're going to get a job and how their job will be created than in a year's time having an extra five days' sick leave if they need it. They're much more interested in how they're going to get a job to provide for their families those 200000 people than an extra public holiday in a couple of years' time. They're much more interested in how a small business in their community will be able to create a job to afford to pay them so they can provide for their families than a sharp increase in the minimum wage—and let's not start on the 1970s style union-friendly workplace relations proposals the Government has been talking about that actually will not drive productivity. So here's an opportunity for the Minister to answer a couple of questions on this. If increasing productivity in the economy is as simple as increasing the minimum wage without consequence why stop where you have? Why not go to $50 an hour because all of a sudden poverty will be gone? But what will be the cost in the supermarkets and elsewhere of those costs being passed on? And if actually the way to increase productivity is through greater sick leave why are you only doing five days? Why are you limiting it to 20 days over a period of time? The reason for that is it feels good and it sounds good but it's not an economic plan to grow the economy. It's not an economic plan to work and support small business people to be able to create jobs. It's not going to do anything at all to help them get out from the debt that has been imposed on them because of the lockdown. And it will mean that job creation slows as we saw in the last term before COVID and when job creation slows it's a leading indicator of an unemployment rate that will increase.Actually we started to see that before COVID then COVID hit the economy and the unemployment rate went so very high. And this isn't a plan to fix that. It's not an economic plan. The IMF is correct that actually on present economic settings New Zealanders' incomes by 2025 will be lower than they are today. That's an appalling record that the Government has set up. They say they care—and they do—but in five years from now there'll be no income growth in New Zealand which means those that have the least will have even less. They will be able to afford even less. And those that are middle-income New Zealanders who are sort of trying to do OK at the moment will have found that actually costs have gone up including housing and rents and food and other things. And there will be fewer businesses because we will be less productive; we will not be more productive.This isn't a debate about whether or not people should have to work when they're ill; of course they should not. But the Government has dressed this up as a response to COVID but is not a response to COVID because already if somebody thinks they might have COVID and they have to go and have a test and they have to self-isolate until then the Government has a scheme of $50 million to help them already. So if they have thought or they think they have COVID or they could have and they want to go and get a test they do not have to work today except the Government scheme doesn't work well enough. They are using COVID as a cover to extend this out. And if that's their policy which it was before the election then they should own that aspect to it. But they shouldn't say it's going to increase productivity because COVID didn't increase productivity in the country and actually piling cost upon business at a time when we should be finding ways for businesses to be able to grow so they are more productive and they can pay more—actually that plan is something that's needed much more than this. The five days' sick leave and the extra day's holiday the Government has proposed to fix the problem of the tourism industry but you're not going to get it for two years doesn't do anything for the businesses that are struggling and are likely to close this year waiting for a public holiday with its extra cost. With the increase of the minimum wage and the Minister's suggestion that he's looking at whether he brings it up to the living wage or not will be a cost of more than $3 billion on businesses. Now the Government gets to borrow that money and one day taxpayers have to pay it back through the tax system. But when a business has to pay extra costs imposed on it by the Government it has to borrow that or it has to increase its costs—Kieran McAnulty: What's this got to do with the bill?Hon TODD McCLAY: —or it has to reduce costs and they don't get to do all of those things. In fact they've already had to do most of them. And largely what it means is they're going to have to reduce costs which means fewer people in the workforce fewer jobs not job creation. "And what's this got to do with sick leave?" a member on the opposite side of the House says. At a time when businesses in New Zealand need the Government to understand how hard it's been to work with them with a plan to grow the economy and create jobs they're merely piling cost on them without talking to them without understanding them. Now if the Minister stands up and says actually this is a select committee process we're going through it. If we see from businesses a better way or it's going to be too harmful or it's not going to create jobs at the moment or for a period of time and he's willing to then look at that and change some of the timing that employers of small businesses around the country hard-working chippies and others have asked for already since the announcement so be it. But I guarantee you he won't do that because this is ideology at its worst. Everybody wants somebody when they're unwell to be treated properly. If you believe you're at harm of COVID then the Government will provide an income for you as you self-isolate. To dress this up as something because we need it—because it's COVID it's there for a long time—will impose cost upon business at a time that it's not needed and it's going to mean fewer jobs not more jobs. And in five years' time these guys will turn around and say it's not our fault that incomes haven't grown because we care.Hon SIMON BRIDGES (National—Tauranga): Point of order. I move an extension of time for Todd McClay. That was a brilliant speech. We need another five minutes.ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean): That is not a point of order."