Volume 654 Week 13 - Wednesday 27 May 2009 
Volume 654 Week 13 - Wednesday 27 May 2009 
[Volume:654;Page:3843] 
Wednesday 27 May 2009 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Visitors 
China People’s Republic—Delegation from the National People’s Congress 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have much pleasure in informing members that a delegation from the National People’s Congress of the People’s Republic of China led by Her Excellency Chen Zhili Vice-Chairwoman of the Standing Committee is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that the delegation be welcomed. 
Motions 
Burma—Detention of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi 
Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
: 
 I seek leave to move without debate members’ motion No. 5 in my name. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is none. 
Hon MARYAN STREET 
: I move  
That the New Zealand Parliament note the anniversary on 27 May 2009 of the detention under house arrest of Nobel Prize winner Daw Aung San Suu Kyi deplore her continued detention on political grounds and seek her immediate and unconditional release together with the release of approximately 2100 additional political prisoners being detained in Burma by the military junta 
. 
Motion agreed to. 
Points of Order 
Select Committees—Membership 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It concerns the establishment of committees of the House. I seek your advice for the Opposition. 
As you know Mr Speaker by way of motion the House has appointed a special select committee to consider legislation relating to Auckland governance. That motion has been debated by Parliament. As a result of that motion members are required to supply you with the names of the people whom they would like to represent their party on that committee. The Labour Opposition is having difficulty complying with that request because of a disagreement we are having with the Government. I would like to ask you to intervene or to offer some advice as to how we may have it resolved. 
Standing Orders 180 181 and 182 refer to the establishment of committees and to the requirement that as far as practicable parties be represented proportionately in terms of their representation in Parliament. On the committee that is under discussion a little over a quarter of the seats are available to Labour but Labour makes up a little over a third of Parliament. We are the party that is most disadvantaged by the way that the committee has been knitted together. The smaller parties are all overrepresented. That is completely appropriate because they cannot have less than one member obviously and we support it. 
We have put forward a suggestion that would not alter the voting balance of the committee—we accept that the Government has put together a majority on it—but would see Labour have a fourth non-voting member on the committee. That would make the number of Labour members on it closer to our proportion in this Chamber than the three members that the motion has set up. That was discussed yesterday as you know at the Business Committee. The Leader of the House advised me last night that he had rejected that suggestion—that he was not prepared to entertain it. 
Mr Speaker I am asking you to offer your advice or your assistance to a minority in the House who are seeking to be represented fairly but not to disturb the voting balance that the Government has put together. What I am proposing would not change the Government’s voting majority on the committee but would mean that Labour had four members on it which is our correct entitlement in terms of proportional representation in this House as set out in the Standing Orders. 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I will make a couple of points. Firstly the committee is not a standing committee of Parliament; it is a special select committee set up as the Hon Darren Hughes said by a motion of the House. The House has therefore dealt with this matter in setting up the special select committee. That is the end of the matter. Further in respect of the Labour Party’s plea that it should be better represented at the table I think that very few people who observed the extraordinary performance of the week before last—which demonstrated the Labour Party’s attitude towards changes to the governance of Auckland—would accept that Labour should be given a greater say. Parliament has spoken on this matter and that should be where it rests. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 Speaking further to the point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I will allow the honourable member to speak briefly to that point. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: The Leader of the House is certainly right: there was an extraordinary performance a couple of weeks ago and most of it was around his behaviour. Coming back to the— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: He invited that chip. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept what the honourable member is saying—that I allowed the Leader of the House to introduce material into his point of order that was unhelpful. I should not have done so and I acknowledge that but the honourable member must not continue in that vein. He must come straight to his point of order and there will be silence. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: The Leader of the House referred to the committee being established by the House as though that was somehow different from the normal rules. It is true that it is not a normal standing committee of Parliament. It has been established under Standing Order 180(2): “The House may establish other committees.” The requirement for proportionality on those committees falls under Standing Order 181 and it is as a consequence of the decision to appoint a committee regardless of whether the committee is one appointed by a special motion or one of the standing subject committees that we have. I take issue with the submission by the Leader of the House to you Mr Speaker because I am referring to the issue of proportionality and to the easy offer that Labour has made available of a fourth non-voting member. That would not disturb the politics it would not disturb the Government’s majority but it would better reflect the proportion that the Labour Opposition holds in this Parliament. 
Hon RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 We can all understand Mr Hughes’ concern but the reality is that it is not for the Speaker to intervene in the decision. The decision was made properly within the Standing Orders by Parliament. It is not then possible for a party that feels that Parliament made a wrong decision to appeal to the Speaker to override Parliament. The only way that the decision can be overridden is by Parliament itself. That is the end of the matter. 
Mr 
 SPEAKER 
: I do not need further assistance on the matter because the point made by the Hon Rodney Hide is absolutely correct. The Speaker cannot overrule a decision of Parliament. As the Hon Darren Hughes has pointed out Standing Order 181 requires proportionality as far as is practicable; it does not say there should be absolute proportionality. The only option available to the member is to pursue the matter further through the Business Committee in the future should he so wish. I cannot as Speaker interfere in the matter now. That is where the matter must remain. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As long as it is not questioning my ruling. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: No it does not question your ruling Mr Speaker. I refer you to Standing Order 182 which takes up the point you have made. It states that the Business Committee may appoint members to serve for a particular time on a particular matter. As you know the Business Committee is not scheduled to meet until next week. I wonder whether you as the chair of that committee would consider convening the committee so that we can have the issue resolved. I understand that the Government wants to get on with setting up the committee’s work and the Labour Opposition does as well but we are asking for some fairness around process. If you could convene the Business Committee we should be able to have the matter resolved. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Business Committee considered the matter only yesterday. I do not imagine that anything will have changed since yesterday evening so I do not propose to do that. There will be a Business Committee meeting next week and there will not be much business conducted by the special select committee in the meantime. As I understand it the committee has been called to meet for the first time tomorrow afternoon. The matter can be raised at the next Business Committee meeting if the member so wishes. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Point of order Mr Speaker— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will take a dim view of any wasting of the time of the House Mr Hughes. I have ruled on the matter. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not see how it is possible to raise a further point of order but I will be generous and allow the member to try. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour) 
: 
 I seek leave for a fourth Labour member with no voting rights to be a permanent member of the committee of the House to consider legislation relating to Auckland governance. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Questions to Ministers 
Debt Government—Prudent Levels 
1. CHRIS TREMAIN (National—Napier) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What level of public debt does he consider prudent? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 The ideal— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: You expect silence tomorrow do you English? Talk to your mate. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Is that some sort of threat? I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister will resume his seat right now; I am going to deal with this matter. The member is being unnecessarily unruly. He may not have liked my previous ruling but I have ruled and the member must accept that. It is totally unacceptable for him to bellow across the House like that. I have called the Hon Bill English to answer the question and he will do that. I have ruled on this matter. I warn the honourable member that he will be out of the House for the rest of this day if he challenges my ruling. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am in no way challenging your ruling; you ruled absolutely correctly. It was the Government that turned down the leave and it is losing the cooperation— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That matter has been dealt with and that is not a valid point of order. The member had better watch his behaviour. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The ideal level of debt is one where debt levels are low enough to allow a Government to borrow during a recession in order to support the economy and where interest costs are not a significant burden. What constitutes prudent debt has changed numerous times over the years and in the present circumstances it is appropriate that the Government tolerates an increase in debt. We will ensure though that as the recession passes debt returns to lower levels so that New Zealand is well positioned for future recessions. This will not be the last recession. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Would the Minister agree that gross debt levels of 17.5 percent of GDP and net debt levels of 0 percent which were achieved under the Labour Government are prudent; and can he confirm that New Zealand’s gross and net sovereign debt is far less than that of either the UK or the US and than the OECD average prompting Moody’s Investors Service to rank New Zealand as having amongst the least indebted Governments of the world? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The figures are correct. But the member needs to remember that the reckless spending of his Government particularly in the last 3 years is what will be giving rise to the rapid rise in public debt over the next 5 years. 
Chris Tremain 
: Will unfunded commitments in Budget 2009 be a source of future debt increases? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: No. The Government is breaking with the previous Government’s habit of making unfunded commitments. All initiatives— 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have previously ruled on the Government’s use of the phrase “unfunded commitments” in this House. You have ruled in line with the Clerk who has prevented—quite rightly—such language from being set down in prepared questions because firstly it is without justification on the facts and secondly it bears no resemblance to the Budget practice used in the past by the Labour Government— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has made his point; he will resume his seat. There is nothing inherently unparliamentary about the term “unfunded”. No one has ever ruled it out. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: No. This Government will break with the practice of the previous Government of making unfunded commitments. All initiatives announced tomorrow will be charged against Budget 2009. This will apply for example to the scheme to insulate New Zealand homes which will be outlined in the Budget tomorrow. The previous Government promised a billion-dollar scheme but not one single dollar was committed to that scheme. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Does the Minister agree that the cost of the unemployment benefit is $793 million per annum at 7 percent unemployment rising to $1.019 billion at 9 percent unemployment based on Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update forecasts; does he then agree that rising unemployment poses a significant fiscal risk; and can he clarify for the House the levels of unemployment that he considers to be prudent? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: What I can clarify is that unemployment is rising and that this Government will do every single thing it can to offer to those people who have lost their jobs the hope that they can get a new job. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Does the Minister see any prudential difference between increasing debt to fund more consumption and debt to fund investment in a more resilient economy with lower carbon emissions less dependence on oil and more ability to withstand future price shocks; and if he does see a difference will the Government be putting forward a plan to transform the economy in that way? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: As has been stated in the media in the last 24 hours the Greens have made a significant contribution to the Government moving in that direction. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table an article by Moody’s Investors Service entitled “How far can Aaa Governments stretch their balance sheets?” which rates New Zealand as being amongst the least indebted countries of the world. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Prime Minister—Promises 
2.  
Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: Does he intend to renege on any of the promises he has made to New Zealanders about actions his Government will follow; if so which promises? 
Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 I am not going to comment on what is in the Budget because members can wait another day for that. But what I would say is that one of the promises that New Zealanders were made by a National Party in Opposition now a National Government is that we will show good leadership when it comes to the economy. When New Zealanders see the Budget tomorrow they will know that just like Standard and Poor’s comments on Tuesday National tends to be a much better manager of the economy or words to that effect. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Phil Goff 
: A great clap for somebody breaking his word! [ 
Interruption 
] If members opposite are going to interject before I even ask my question I am going to reply— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Would members just settle down a little. I note the deputy leader of the Labour Party was interjecting while her own leader was trying to ask a question and interjected in a very inappropriate way I might add but I will not take that matter further. Please if members would settle down a little. The honourable Leader of the Opposition has the floor. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Does the Prime Minister recall saying in this House: “Most of all New Zealanders will be able to believe our tax cuts they will be able to trust our tax cuts … You see we believe in tax cuts we believe in the power of tax cuts and we will deliver them. What is more we can afford to do it.” and what do his plans to renege on those promises say about his credibility and his trustworthiness now? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: As if it were only yesterday I remember making those comments and that is why so many New Zealanders have thanked me for the tax cuts that we delivered on 1 April only months after being sworn into office. 
Nathan Guy 
: Has he seen any reports about tax cut promises being reversed? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Yes I have seen two such reports. The first was in the 2007 Budget where Michael Cullen cancelled the income tax cuts he had promised. I note that at the time he cancelled them the Government surplus was $8 billion. The second was a recent report in the  
Weekend Herald 
 regarding Labour’s promised tax cuts in 2010 and 2011. Because of the severity of the global recession someone who likes to tweet on Twitter from time to time David Cunliffe said: “It therefore follows that we would likely have had to scale them back to maintain a fiscally prudent stance.” 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Did the Prime Minister say: “… I personally guarantee that we will: … [reduce] personal taxes on 1 April 2009 1 April 2010 and 1 April 2011.” and did he personally guarantee that reduction after the International Monetary Fund had publicly warned that the world economy was entering a major downturn in the face of the most dangerous shock to financial markets that the world had seen since the 1930s and after the collapse of Lehman Brothers; if so were his promises naive irresponsible or dishonest—or all three? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: For a start the piece of paper that David Cunliffe is holding up looks a lot like the Labour seating plan after the election. The second answer is no. 
Hon Jim Anderton 
: When the Prime Minister said at the launch of his party’s tax policy last year before the election that his policy was “appropriate for the current conditions” and would require “no additional borrowing” why did he not tell New Zealanders that the reason no extra borrowing would be required was that those tax cuts were not going to proceed? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I thank the member for reading out the full quote about the appropriate conditions. They would have been the same conditions under which Labour promised a tax cut that actually cost more than National’s. All I can say to the member is what I would say to any New Zealander: that the Government has to deal with the dynamic conditions it faces. These are the worst economic conditions for 70-odd years. This Government will face up to those conditions and ensure that the good ship  
New Zealand 
 sails through them out of the very rough waters that it is currently in. 
Nathan Guy 
: What negative surprises did the Government find on coming into office? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: The first surprise was the speed and extent of the global economic downturn which took all Governments in the world by surprise. [ 
Interruption 
] Opposition members are bleating on like a bunch of sheep but I remember them in January when they said these were the worst conditions for 70 years—maybe ever—and the Government should be doing something about it. Well tomorrow we are doing something about it. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Does the Prime Minister not get it: that what makes people really angry is not that he is not now delivering on the tax cuts but rather the self-serving dishonesty and irresponsibility of promising them in the first place when he knew he could not deliver on them? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: If I had the support of the House to give a 15-minute speech on dishonesty I would do that in relation to the previous Labour Government—its pledge card its Electoral Finance Act and its endless bits of legislation that robbed New Zealanders of hope. No wonder its seating plan looks like that piece of paper now! 
Hon Jim Anderton 
: In interviews the Prime Minister has given about himself he claims to have evidently a reputation as a smart market dealer so did he know before the last election that the economic situation in New Zealand and around the world was deteriorating or did he find out only when Treasury told him and would the cancellation of his party’s tax cuts mean that National now accepts that tax cuts are not always the best way to stimulate the economy? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: The answer is no. I do not think anyone would have predicted the level of economic downturn that has taken place in the last 6 months. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Does the Prime Minister agree with the commentary in the  
New Zealand Herald  
this morning on National’s plans to renege on its tax cut undertakings which said that “in the commercial world such an obvious breach of promise would be actionable in the courts” and that we seem to be going back to the bad old days of the 1990s when campaigning politicians lied to the public who never got what they voted for; if not why not? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I can only guess that that came from a Brian Rudman column and as a general rule I do not read those. But in the same fine newspaper earlier in the week in a much better written column Audrey Young made the very good point that even if the Government were to break a promise in relation to tax cuts by delaying them it would be keeping a promise that it will manage this economy well—or words to that effect. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: On what basis can the Prime Minister guarantee superannuation entitlements when he intends to cut the funding that makes it possible to ensure those entitlements; or is this just another example of his being ready to promise something now while knowing that he cannot deliver on it in the future? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: The first thing is that I can make an absolute guarantee in relation to the funding of New Zealand superannuation entitlements irrespective of any pre-funding of the New Zealand Superannuation Fund. I do that on these grounds—and I would be on exactly the same territory as the Hon Dr Michael Cullen when he was asked exactly that question back in October 2000. When he was asked how pre-funding would affect New Zealand superannuation entitlements he said that pre-funding relates to how New Zealand superannuation is funded overall and “it will not have any direct impact on New Zealand superannuation entitlements”. He was right. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: What is the Prime Minister’s explanation to the more than 1000 decent hard-working New Zealanders who worked in the Public Service and who now have been deprived of their livelihood since he promised not to cut but only to cap public sector employment? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Firstly the Government has moved a lot of people from the back office to the front office. The Budget will spell that out clearly tomorrow. But one of the reasons why Labour was turfed out was that all it knew how to do was spend money. These are economic conditions that require good rounded economic management and all I can say is thank goodness we have Bill English. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Did the Prime Minister promise New Zealanders that within 6 months of his becoming Prime Minister 1250 people extra net would be enrolled on the dole in the course of 1 week which is apparently what happened last week? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I do not know the exact number who enrolled last week on the dole. But I do know that all countries around the world are struggling with rising unemployment. I do know that New Zealand’s unemployment rate is 5 percent and we can contrast that with the rate in Australia which is 5.7 percent or the United Kingdom’s rate which is 6.8 percent or the United States’ rate which is 8.5 percent. I do know that when I stood up in this House and supported a 9-day fortnight which saved jobs at companies like Fisher and Paykel Appliances Ltd—and good on them for sorting out their problems today—the Labour Opposition criticised it. I do know that when we held the Job Summit to try to save jobs the Labour Opposition criticised it. I do know that on this side of the House we care about jobs. If anybody should be worried about unemployment it should be Phil Goff. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I seek leave to table a document in which the Prime Minister personally guarantees to do things that he has now reneged and broken his word on. It was published and authorised by M Oldershaw Fergusson Drive Heretaunga and proudly paid for by supporters of the National Party. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The House did settle for a while and then it got very unruly again. I am struggling to hear. Seeking leave to table documents is an important right that members have and it should be treated seriously. It appears that leave is sought to table what appears to be a policy document of the National Party. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There appears to be no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Budget 2009—Broad Based - Low Rate Tax System 
3.  
Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What progress will he announce in the Budget tomorrow on the Government’s medium-term goal of a “broad-based low-rate tax system” as agreed to in the National-ACT confidence and supply agreement? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 The Government continues to support the principle of a broad based - low rate tax system. Decisions that were taken earlier with regard to KiwiSaver and research and development tax credits are consistent with this approach. The Government has ensured that there is no further erosion of tax bases. By international standards New Zealand’s tax bases are already broad and are relatively efficient at raising revenue. It would be fair to say that tax strategy is not at the centre of the Budget. 
Hon Sir Roger Douglas 
: Why is the Minister apparently willing to renege on his lower tax policy promises but not on his high Government spending promises? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: It is our view that the decisions in the Budget will reflect a fair balance between on the one hand supporting New Zealanders through the most difficult time of a recession and on the other preparing to grow the economy. I expect that some people on either side of the political spectrum will believe the decisions did not go exactly how they wanted them to go. That means the decisions will probably be about right. 
Families Commission—Appointment of Christine Rankin 
4.  
Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What due diligence did she undertake before and after recommending the appointment of Christine Rankin to the Families Commission? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Due diligence is defined as undertaking voluntary investigations and I can assure the member that I undertook voluntary investigations into Ms Rankin’s commitment to fighting child abuse. I found her to be a strong and dedicated advocate on behalf of children. I do not pass judgment on gossip and speculation. I am cautious about delving into anyone’s private life whether it be in relation to an appointment an MP or a member of the public. 
Hon Annette King 
: What questions did she ask and what information did she receive from Christine Rankin when she personally undertook her own due diligence as was stated by the Prime Minister in the House yesterday? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I can assure the member that proper process and due diligence were followed as no doubt they were followed when the previous Government appointed the member’s colleague Dr Rajen Prasad to the same organisation just a few years earlier. 
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I took particular care in the preparation of my questions today in line with the rulings you have given in this House over many weeks. I asked a very specific question of the Minister. I asked her what questions she had asked and what information she had received from Christine Rankin when the Minister personally undertook her own due diligence as stated by the Prime Minister in the House yesterday. The Minister then gave an answer about due process having been followed. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I invite the honourable member—because obviously the member has more supplementary questions—to pursue the matter and let us listen to the answer. 
Hon Annette King 
: Oh well I will ask it again Mr Speaker. Is that OK? I will ask the same question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No; it would be a further supplementary question. 
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked you to rule based on the fact that you have ruled before that when a specific question is asked without any other surrounding information being included—when a straightforward question is asked—the Minister is required to answer it. I have only a certain number of supplementary questions. You are asking me to give up one of my questions in order to ask the Minister a question that she should have answered in the first place. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: By any measure the Minister has addressed the question. To expect that the Minister should be required to give detailed answers on a matter like this seems to me to be a little over the top. The answer that came from the Minister was that the same level of attention was paid to this appointment as had been paid to appointments by successive Governments in the past. That surely is a satisfactory answer. It does address the question. It will not make the questioner happy but that seldom occurs. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I absolutely accept that there is a bit of a dilemma in the nature of the question asked because it is highly questionable whether it would be in the public interest for the Minister to try to detail the exact questions asked. I am loath to rule that the Minister should give a more precise answer because it seems to me that it would be extraordinarily difficult for the Minister to tell the House precisely which questions she asked. I think the member has the right to pursue the issue through further supplementary questions but it would be very difficult for me to rule that the Minister must tell the House exactly which questions were asked of a private citizen. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you took into consideration in your ruling the fact that normally for an appointment such as this officials would do due diligence and give advice to Ministers. What has been clear from questioning in both the week before last and this week is that the Minister took more of a personal involvement in the level of due diligence. That is what the Prime Minister said yesterday. The deputy leader of the Labour Party said to you Mr Speaker that she carefully constructed her question based on previous answers. There was no political language in the question unlike the answer which came back with a political attack on a Labour member. Mrs King is making the point that the Minister has taken a personal level of involvement so she should be in a position to answer the question separate from what officials would do if they were giving departmental advice. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: That is most surely a debatable point because it requires the House to accept that the assumption made by the Opposition is the basis on which all questions should be answered from that point. Perhaps the assumptions are a leap too far. The Minister has indicated how she dealt with this matter. That surely has to satisfy the answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I appreciate members’ contributions to this issue. I accept that it is a serious issue. I ask the Hon Annette King to accept the dilemma she places the Speaker in because if I were to rule that the Minister had to detail exactly every question she asked it would mean that I was setting a precedent for this House that members could ask exactly which questions any Minister had asked of any ministerial or Government appointee to any public position. I think it would be a fairly dangerous precedent for the Speaker to set. To ask about the principles of how the matter was handled is perfectly proper but to ask the Speaker to rule that the Minister should give that kind of detail is being a little unreasonable. I invite the honourable member to pursue her questions. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have been listening to this exchange with some interest because I was involved in the original appointment of Dr Prasad which was the subject of the comparison. Without going into detail and just to pick up on your final comments—I think there are matters of personal information that should not be bandied around the House—in that instance the process was quite rigorous. It involved a short list process consideration by officials and a series of subsequent reports being made on the suitability or otherwise of some of the nominees. It seems to me that that level of questioning is in order; it does not go to the heart of what particular information was available. But it raises another issue and that is if the Minister is saying that the process that was followed in this case is comparable with the process followed in that case then she does open herself up to having to answer questions about the extent of that comparability and whether in fact those steps were followed. So I accept the point about no delving into personal information but surely there is a line about process that can be tested. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I appreciate the honourable member’s contribution to the issue at hand and I think what he has just said is perfectly reasonable. I invite the honourable member to pursue her questioning along those lines. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: So she’s not getting an answer? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am not ruling that the Minister must provide that personal information—exactly which questions. It is the process— 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: What about just addressing it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members will not question my ruling. It is perfectly proper to question the Minister on the process undergone. 
Hon Annette King 
: Did the Minister directly ask Christine Rankin if the rumours circulating about her personal life which were subsequently discussed by Christine Rankin on Television New Zealand’s  
Sunday 
 programme were true; if so why did the Minister not warn the Prime Minister of the potential for criticism and ridicule before the appointment was made? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Rumours and speculation fly around this place all the time. I am one who chooses not to listen to them and not to engage too much. When I heard what was very much speculation in respect of Ms Rankin—and I have heard much other speculation in respect of this matter—I told her that there were rumours circulating. She assured me that none of them were true; I took her at her word. 
Hon Annette King 
: Did the Minister ask Christine Rankin about her relationship with the For the Sake of Our Children Trust including the payment she received from it and why it was not a registered charitable trust at the time she was on  
Dancing with the Stars 
 seeking votes from the public with any money raised to go to the trust? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: No I did not. 
Hon Annette King 
: Will she remove Christine Rankin from the position of Families Commissioner if it is shown that she did not tell the truth in her recent public announcements? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I have no reason to believe otherwise. If that member has any proof or anything that she would like to put on the table then we would be more than happy to look at it. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Again it was a very straightforward question—will she remove Ms Rankin— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I ask members to be reasonable about this matter. The honourable member cannot expect a precise answer to a “what if” type of question. The member asked what the Minister would do if something was shown to be correct. A precise answer cannot be expected to that kind of question. I do not believe that the Leader of the Opposition is being reasonable. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I thought you were rising to your feet because a number of members of the Government were interjecting while I was raising a point of order. That is against the Standing Orders. I would like you to address that question and then I will come back my point of order which you interrupted before I had even got to it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I invite the honourable member to reflect a little on how helpful he is being. I did not hear members of the Government interjecting because I was concentrating on the point that the member was making. It seemed to me immediately that he was being unreasonable. I am not prepared to waste the time of the House on points of order when I have judged—and I am the sole judge of that matter. I have shown myself to be pretty reasonable to members of the Opposition; I have required answers that no other Speaker in recent memory has ever required. I have been pretty reasonable to members of the Opposition but when I hear a point of order that to me is simply unreasonable I get to my feet and rule on the matter. That is what I did. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Standing Order 377 on the content of replies requires that an answer must seek to address the question asked. I ask you Mr Speaker in respect of those two questions where in any way the Minister on her feet sought to address the question asked. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need further help on this matter. As I explained to the honourable member the question asked about a future possible scenario and there is no exact answer to that. It does not take a lot of thought to see that. I invite the honourable member to reflect further on the matter. 
Street Racing—Deterrents 
5.  
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: What measures is the Government taking to curb illegal street racing around New Zealand? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yesterday the Prime Minister the Minister of Police and I unveiled new legislation to help combat illegal street racing. The Land Transport (Enforcement Powers) Amendment Bill will ensure that the penalties for this antisocial behaviour are a strong deterrent to repeat offending. The Vehicle Confiscation and Seizure Bill allows the police and courts to target those repeatedly committing offences even in someone else’s car. These two laws will target the things illegal street racers value the most: their cars and their drivers’ licences. 
David Bennett 
: What specific initiatives does this legislation involve? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The new legislation will allow local councils to create by-laws preventing cars from repeatedly cruising city streets in a manner designed to bring attention to the power and sound of the vehicle—much like the power and sound of the vehicles opposite. I am sure this will come as a great relief to the residents of the four avenues in Christchurch. The legislation includes tougher penalties for noise offences failing to give driver details licence breaches and registration plate offences. In addition my colleague the Minister of Police has also introduced legislation to target the worst offenders by taking away their vehicles permanently. 
Nicky Wagner 
: What reports has the Minister seen in reaction to yesterday’s announcement? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The overwhelming reaction to the proposed bills has been positive. The only negative feedback I have had is from the illegal street racers themselves. The police have said that this new legislation will make a significant difference to the problem. The Automobile Association has welcomed the legislation saying: “The legislative changes will send a very clear message to illegal street racers”. The Mayor of Christchurch Bob Parker called the draft legislation “a big step in the right direction”. 
Amy Adams 
: How are the enforcement penalties designed in the Land Transport (Enforcement Powers) Amendment Bill? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: One of the main focuses of the bill is on a greater use of demerit points as penalties. We are introducing demerit points for noise offences licence breaches and registration plate offences and increasing demerit points for graduated licence breaches. This is because it is clear that illegal street racers have not been paying their fines so the focus will become one of removing licences and/or the vehicle. 
New Zealand—Credit Rating 
6.  
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What issues does he believe are of most concern to credit rating agencies in respect of New Zealand: Government debt or the resilience of the wider economy? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 Both of those issues are important to the economy and the Government wants to make sure we get control of Government debt and increase the resilience of the wider economy. The Government will continue to do what is best for New Zealand; rating agencies will continue to form opinions on the results of our decisions. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Is the Minister aware that Moody’s Investors Service rates New Zealand as having only a “limited debt challenge” and places New Zealand as being amongst the most resistant economies to the global downturn; if so why has he been attempting to scare New Zealanders into accepting his Government’s contractionary policies and his leader’s broken promises? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: That question is full of assumptions that are incorrect. The Government has set out to make the best decisions for New Zealand according to our own judgment. The rating agencies will make whatever decisions they want to make. 
Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 
: What previous approaches by New Zealand Ministers of Finance to dealing with rating agencies is the Minister aware of? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I can quote my predecessor Michael Cullen who said in 2006 “when rating agencies call they largely ask the questions and I supply the answers. What the agency wanted assurance about was that there would be no sudden lurching around in the Government’s fiscal policy”. That is a reasonable approach for any Minister of Finance to take and it remains the case. I have been happy to brief rating agencies when major decisions have been taken to assure them that the Crown’s finances are on a stable and sensible path. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: How can the Minister reconcile his statement to the House yesterday that “The Government actually has not talked about the credit rating agencies—hardly at all—since it came to office.” with his leader’s statement that “We have to make sure we don’t deliver deeper recession by allowing ourselves to blow our debt profile and threaten our international rating.”? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: That is an entirely sensible reference to the fact that New Zealand has to borrow billions of dollars from overseas lenders and lenders’ perceptions of this country matter. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Does the Minister agree that it is a “nonsense” to suggest that New Zealand would have to borrow $50 billion extra by 2013 because any Government—National or Labour—would adjust its policy to ensure a sustainable fiscal path? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Certainly the National-led Government is adjusting policy in order to make sure we have sustainable debt. All the signs from Labour are that it has not learnt the lessons of losing an election and is still advocating endless spending and a lot more debt. 
State Highway Projects—Funding 
7.  
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: Is it Government policy to ensure that the benefits outweigh the costs for new State highway projects prior to approving funding for them? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yes the Government’s general approach is to ensure that not just State highways but all transport infrastructure projects are assessed for full benefits over costs and are value for money. That policy is of course implemented by the New Zealand Transport Agency. We also take into account the wider economic development productivity and safety benefits when evaluating transport projects. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: What are the corridor benefit-cost ratios for each of the seven roads of national significance announced in March? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: We do not yet have full benefit-cost ratios for every individual project on the roads of national significance as the New Zealand Transport Authority is currently developing and assessing the way in which those projects will be developed. I can however tell the member that the Victoria Park tunnel in Auckland has a benefit-cost ratio of 2.8 and the proposed Waterview Connection has a benefit-cost ratio of 2.4. That compares with the previous Labour Government’s twin two-lane tunnel option which had a benefit-cost ratio of 1.2 
Michael Woodhouse 
: Has he seen any reports that go back and analyse the benefits and costs of State highway projects after construction and look at how that compared with the pre-construction analysis? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: Yes I have. The Motu group has conducted an interesting post-construction analysis of the economic benefits of the Auckland Northern Motorway extensions to Silverdale and Orewa. Its report showed that the benefit of building the motorway expressed in cost-benefit terms was between 6.3 and 21 times the cost. This was far better than the pre-construction analysis and it shows the potential for major new State highway projects to create strong economic benefits in the regions in which they are developed. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: How can it be economically responsible for the Government to announce in March seven roads of national significance and commit an additional $1 billion towards building them without any prior analysis of the economic costs and benefits of the projects as the Minister admitted in his answer and as has been confirmed from this letter from the New Zealand Transport Agency which says that even after the announcement of the seven projects no benefit-to-cost ratio analysis has been done? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: As I said some elements of the roads of national significance have benefit-cost ratios that are known currently and for the others that will become known as the projects develop over time. On the subject of benefit-cost ratios I say they are only one part of the answer because the Auckland rail infrastructure upgrades that were signed off by the previous Government with support from the Greens suggested that the upgrades had a benefit-cost ratio of to quote Treasury “about 1”. That is about the most generous benefit-cost ratio assessment I have seen Treasury come up with so far. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he support the commitment of his Government towards high-quality spending and how does he know that these seven projects involving billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money are high-quality spending when he announced that he would progress them before he had done the analysis as to the benefits versus the costs? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: It is well known that the seven projects referred to are on corridors of absolutely national significance across the country and of course the projects are supported by road users and others in the communities. Each project before it proceeds is subject to a full analysis on the construction costs and the benefit-cost ratios and the decisions will be made on that basis. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Is the Minister not operating a double standard because on the one hand he said to the Bus and Coach Association with regard to public transport projects that there has to be a cost-benefit analysis to see that they make sense in their own right whereas when it comes to the ideologically driven economically illiterate decisions to invest in these seven motorway projects there is no requirement for the seven projects to have a benefit-to-cost analysis done prior to the decision to go ahead with a project—it is a double standard? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I am happy to have a conversation about economic literacy with the member opposite at any time that he cares to name. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There was absolutely no attempt to answer or address that question. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any assistance. The member should reflect on the question he asked. Where he introduces that kind of material into the question he can expect that kind of answer. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I seek leave to table the letter from the New Zealand Transport Agency in which it says no benefit-cost analysis has been done on these seven major projects. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Health Care—Policy 
8.  
Hon RUTH DYSON (Labour—Port Hills) 
 to the  
Minister of Health 
: Does he still stand by his policy to deliver better sooner and more convenient health care? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Associate Minister of Health) 
 on behalf of the  
Minister of Health 
: Yes that is the Government’s plan despite inheriting a public health system that has serious workforce shortages many services under severe pressure and was on track to financial crisis under the previous Government. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: If National’s policy has a real focus on the retention of current staff as it states— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Forgive me for interrupting the honourable member but her own colleagues were interjecting loudly while she was trying to ask her question. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: I am sorry Mr Speaker. I had not noticed. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I can assure the member that the interjecting members were sitting right beside her and I could not hear her. I would like to hear the question. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: If National’s policy has a real focus on the retention of current staff as it states why has the Minister stood by and watched the loss of the two child cancer specialists in Wellington and done absolutely nothing? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: It is very easy for that member to criticise this Government’s performance when that member’s Government did nothing over the past 9 years in the area of child oncology in Wellington. I can assure members that this Government is determined to deliver the best possible paediatric oncology service for the children of Wellington and the lower North Island. We will be taking advice from the paediatric oncology steering group as to how this will be achieved. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: If the then Minister’s actions in 2007 and 2008 in relation to child cancer services in Wellington were “unacceptable idle and lacking in heart” as he described them why is the Minister’s total inaction OK? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: The previous Minister of Health’s actions were a complete failure quite frankly. We have seen that in that a comprehensive sustainable paediatric oncology service could never be run at Wellington Hospital. As in every other area of health that mob has left a huge mess that this Government will have to clear up. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: What are some examples of how the Government is delivering “better sooner more convenient health care”? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: There are many examples of how this Government is delivering “better sooner more convenient health care”; amongst them is access to elective surgery. We will build an extra 20 theatres dedicated to elective surgery train several hundred more surgical staff and increase elective surgery discharges by 4000 per year. Unlike the previous administration this Government finds it completely unacceptable that elective surgery discharges have not matched the increase in population. I can tell members that— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not think we need more information on the previous administration. We have had enough of an answer. The Associate Minister will resume his seat. His own colleague asked him a question about what the Government had done to carry out its policy of sooner more convenient health care etc. To answer that question was fine; members did not need to hear information about the previous Government. That was not part of that question. 
Hon Sir Roger Douglas 
: What has the Minister done in the last 6 months to address health productivity which under the previous Labour Government decreased 15 percent for doctors and 11 percent for nurses but rose for orderlies and cleaning staff services that were often contracted out to the private sector? In these circumstances when will the Minister be announcing the contracting out of elective surgery to the private sector thus saving $1 billion or more? 
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: The member is right. We were left huge productivity challenges after 9 years of neglect of health by the previous Government. One of the key areas we are having to address is clinical leadership and once we get the clinicians engaged—they were very disengaged and morale was poor under the previous Government—and the front-line service people engaged productivity will increase and that will be a focus for this Government. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: I seek leave to table the wage increases for doctors and nurses for the last 9 years under the Labour-led Government and the impact on productivity. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. There is a document? What is the document? 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: There will be—yes. [ 
Interruption 
] Mr Speaker I can clarify the point— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All members will resume their seats. Points of order are meant to be heard in silence. I am a little troubled though by leave being sought to table something that does not exist. I will give the member another chance to clarify that. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: Mr Speaker the information exists— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no. The member will resume her seat. There is provision to table documents but there is a dilemma if members seek to manufacture documents after seeking leave to table them. Either the document exists or it does not and I have to trust the honourable member’s integrity in respect of that. I am asking her whether the document exists as she seeks leave to table it in the House. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: The information exists and can be provided in a document in the time— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no. That is trifling with the Standing Orders of this House. One cannot seek leave to table a document then manufacture the document after the leave was sought. Were the House to give leave I would find that absolutely improper. When leave is sought to table a document that document must exist. And it cannot just exist in one’s mind; it must exist in reality. 
Hon Maryan Street 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am on my feet and I have ruled on the matter. Let us be very clear about it: I have ruled on that matter. Members cannot seek leave to table documents that do not exist. I am absolutely clear on that. This House has got itself into enough trouble over many years because of members seeking to table stuff that did not exist. Creating it afterwards is not good enough. I trust the member. If the document exists now it can be tabled—if the House provides leave—but if the document does not exist then leave cannot be sought. 
Hon Members 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I warn members that I have ruled so I will listen only to new points of order. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It goes right to your last point. You cannot rule at all that members cannot seek leave to table something. They can and you cannot stop them. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I accept the point the honourable member is making but I do try to clarify for the benefit of the House what the document is. What has been clarified is that the document does not exist; therefore leave cannot be sought to table it—because it does not exist. And that is the end of the matter. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I warn members: do not trifle with my ruling. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have two points of order. The first point of order is that when Opposition members have been raising points of order with you as they are entitled to do you have begun editorialising before we have even said a word about what our point of order is. I want to raise a point of order with you about the generic issue of tabling documents. You have ruled— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am listening and members are meant to come quickly to the point of order. I am listening. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: It is very hard to Mr Speaker when you jump down our throats before we have even started about whether it is a proper point of order. You have got to accept that we can raise points of order with you. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have been very tolerant today—very tolerant—and I am warning the member. I have ruled on this matter; there can be no further points of order on it. Leave cannot be sought to table something that does not exist and that is absolutely a simple matter of fact. There is no debate on it and I will not tolerate more points of order on that issue. I am alerting members: I will not tolerate more points of order on that. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am attempting to raise a generic point of order with you about the tabling of documents and to get your advice. Where a range of information exists—published statistics published information matters of record that are available to members—but it does not exist in one published document and a member seeks leave to bring those statistics together into one piece of paper that can be tabled for the benefit of the House because they might not be publicly available in one form which is the whole point of seeking leave to table a document are you ruling that it is not possible for members to do that? I think Mr Speaker that you put us in a very difficult position and you have taken a ruling— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Now the member is starting to question my judgment. The matter is very simple. If the member wishes to create a document that is fine. Once the document has been created leave can be sought to table it. But the House cannot be expected to make judgments about things that do not exist. I have ruled on the matter and I am warning members that I will not tolerate more wasting of time on this issue. I invite the member to think about how leave can be sought to table something that does not exist. Once it exists leave can be sought to table it but if it does not exist leave cannot be sought to table it. 
Hon Maryan Street 
: I seek leave to table the collective agreements applying to the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists and the New Zealand Nurses Organisation from 2004 to 2009 which go to the question of productivity and rates paid. They are documents that exist Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Education National Standards—Consultation 
9.  
ALLAN PEACHEY (National—Tamaki) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What recent announcements has she made about the consultation for national standards? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 Last Monday the Government published on the Ministry of Education’s website the draft standards in reading writing and mathematics and examples of the reporting to parents. Packs of the standards and examples of reports were also sent out to schools educators and interested groups towards the end of last week. The release of the draft standards and reports marks the start of consultation with the sector parents and whanau with feedback due back to the ministry by 3 July. 
Allan Peachey 
: What type of engagement is planned with educators parents and whanau? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: Last week the first of about 42 meetings was held with parents and whanau and this morning the first of 14 education sector meetings was held in Paihia. I am glad to say that interest in the meeting was so high with 176 registrations received that we had to find more space. The ministry has also committed to sending representatives along to meetings of educators wherever requested and as at this morning it has agreed to attend a further 12 meetings. The ministry will continue to receive such requests. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: What consultation has she had with Maori education groups and whanau hapu and iwi about national standards and what has been their advice? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I and my colleague the Hon Dr Sharples have spoken to a number of Maori education groups about the national standards. A recent example was 2 weeks ago when I met with all the iwi groups with which the Ministry of Education has a relationship and discussed the issue. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: How many of them? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: Between 70 and 80 iwi leaders were at the meeting. Their advice was to make sure we have a strong research basis before setting the national standards for Maori-medium education. 
Catherine Delahunty 
: Will the consultation over national standards of literacy and numeracy include asking whanau parents and teachers whether they want individual school results to be published and will whanau parents and teachers be told about the possible effects on schools of publishing that information? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: Yes there is a question in the consultation document about what information parents want to receive and how that information should be phrased. I look forward to continuing to receive from parents and from sector representatives advice about what the shape of that information might be. As to the question around the damage that might be done to schools if that information were published I have made it very clear that neither the ministry nor I will be publishing any information in the form of league tables. 
Allan Peachey 
: What feedback has the Minister received on the standards? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I am very pleased that the feedback from the sector so far suggests that many many people in it are happy with what we have produced. I quote one example. The New Zealand Educational Institute president Frances Nelson said: “The ministry and Minister have worked on something much more robust than anything I have seen in the world at this time.” That is a credit to the extremely good work of the experts inside and outside the ministry who have worked to produce the standards. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Is the Minister confident there is a sufficiently robust research basis to develop national standards for kura kaupapa Maori; if not what will she do to ensure that the policy will be successful in Maori-medium education? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I am advised there is a significantly robust research basis from which to develop national standards in kura kaupapa Maori. We have given the ministry further time to develop those standards before they go out for consultation later in the year. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Does the Minister regard professional cooperation as being vital to the implementation of her standards; if so does she understand that the publication of league tables would undermine that cooperation? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: Yes I understand perfectly that professional cooperation is necessary for the implementation of those standards and that is why I have been at great pains to involve the education sector throughout the development and consultation period. That is why I have also taken great pains to assure the sector that the Minister and the ministry will not be publishing league tables at any time or at any stage. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Will the Minister support an amendment to the Official Information Act to prevent the use of that information for the publication of league tables? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: If that member wishes to put something in front of me I will consider it. I reassure the member who with his party is intent on scaremongering amongst the sector that in fact this Government— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have made no public comment on this issue. The Minister cannot say that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the Minister has given a sufficient answer to the question anyhow because she has made it clear she would consider the matter that the member put to her in that question. I think it has been answered and we do not need any further information. 
Education Minister—Priorities 
10.  
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What are her priorities for the period between now and 30 June 2009? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 The overall priority of this Government is to raise achievement in the education system. That priority guides my actions at all times. In order to achieve that goal I have a number of priorities in early childhood education and the schooling sector and also in the tertiary sector in my role as Minister for Tertiary Education. I can give the member two examples from a long list of work on our priorities up until 30 June: I would include the current consultation with parents and the education sector on national standards and the expressions of interest that we have called for in terms of trades academies. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: What priority is the Minister giving to literacy and in particular to the importance of spelling and proofreading? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I thought I had made it fairly clear in the previous answer but I say that this Government is committed to the national standards which include reading and writing of which spelling is a part. We see those standards as the foundation for children’s learning so we want to ensure that every young New Zealander gets the opportunity to learn to read write and do maths while they are at primary school. 
Nikki Kaye 
: What indications has the Minister received of the education sector embracing the Government’s priorities for education? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I have received numerous indications and I have outlined in the House today the overwhelming support for the national standards consultation process. I also tell the House that we have received over 100 expressions of interest for the trades academies. The Ministry of Education is currently reviewing the submissions so that we can decide which submissions should be taken further to a business proposal stage and then on to final approval and construction. We are delivering on one of our priorities—that is to support at least five trades academies in the next 3 years. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: In light of the Minister’s comments on the importance of literacy and the importance of academies how does she spell “academies”? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: Mr Speaker— 
Hon Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With the greatest respect I say that Parliament is not a spelling bee and the Minister has no responsibility for the spelling of a particular word. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Speaking to the point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: So long as it is a matter of order I will hear the Hon Trevor Mallard. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I have a document from the Minister that within an inch or so spells “academies”— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is not a point of order. I invite the member to reflect on what he has just done. That point is nothing to do with order in this House and it is not helpful. Members have been grumpy about my rulings but it is not helpful when members raise that kind of point of order. OK I could have ruled the question out—I am sure the Opposition would have been very grumpy had I done that. I thought the Minister could handle the question whatever way she chose. It was the kind of question that could get any kind of answer; I am not going to insist on any particular kind of answer. Members can see the dilemma for the Speaker because if I had ruled out the question the Opposition would not have been happy. I have not ruled it out and I think the Minister is at liberty to answer it. 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: That is the sort of question that I would expect from the member. Why does the member not talk about why he opposes trades academies? Why does he think that young New Zealanders are better sitting in rows in classrooms instead of attending something like a trades academy where secondary education can interface with both the workplace and tertiary education and which gives people opportunities to live better fulfilled lives? Why does the member continue to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think that is a sufficient answer. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Why does the Minister promote higher education standards and at the same time put out a document signed by her that is riddled with spelling errors? 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: If that member would like to send me the piece of paper that he purports has spelling mistakes on it I will correct them for him. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I wonder whether the Minister could confirm that it is highly likely that the people who actually wrote that document were educated some time during the 9 years of the Labour Government when there was absolutely no care for educational standards whatsoever. 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY 
: I am happy to confirm that. I also confirm that the member asking the earlier questions was the Minister of Education at the time. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I seek leave to table the document signed by the Hon Anne Tolley which has the quotes from the Minister of Education and is filled with spelling errors. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Communities—Community Response Fund 
11.  
JO GOODHEW (National—Rangitata) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What plans does the Government have to support communities during the economic downturn? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Last week I was pleased to announce that we are establishing the Community Response Fund as a short-term fund to respond to immediate pressures faced by critical social services. Up to $40 million will be available in the first year for communities to support services they need with more available in year two. 
Jo Goodhew 
: Has the Minister seen any reports in the media about the Community Response Fund? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Yes I have. An article in the  
New Zealand Herald  
titled “Social services welcome National’s Budget boost” said: “Social service agencies can hardly believe their luck after a National Government yesterday gave them more money for the coming year than the former Labour Government had planned despite intense pressure to cut spending in the recession.” The  
Otago Daily Times 
 said that voluntary organisations have welcomed this Government’s handouts to help them through the recession. 
Tim Macindoe 
: Could the Minister comment on the reaction of the non-governmental organisation sector to the announcement? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: Yes. I have had an extremely positive response from sector representatives. In particular I have seen media releases from the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services that praise the Government for social services support. Relationship Services welcomes the new funding announcement. Barnardos welcomes the new Community Response Fund. Women’s Refuge said the Government’s plan to establish the new Community Response Fund is a “sensible measure to address the imminent impact of the recession.” 
Hon Annette King 
: Did she create a $40 million emergency fund that provides only one-off funding to hide the fact she intends to cut over $210 million allocated to help fully fund the essential services of up to 800 community organisations; if not will she give those groups her personal assurance today that they will receive the increases of up to 20 percent they were expecting in 2009 and 2010 as not to do so will mean a cut for those organisations? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I am very pleased to answer the question. This Government has brought forward $20 million on top of the $20 million that was available via Pathways to Partnership because we understand that in this recession those social services desperately need the support now. They have an increase in demand and a decrease in the money coming in. I can assure the non-governmental organisations out there that the money from Pathways to Partnership is staying there. We are going to be working closely with them as we have in the past with this fund to discuss how to fund them and how to move forward in the future. 
Job Summit—Minister’s Statement 
12.  
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Youth Affairs 
: Does she stand by her statement that the Prime Minister’s Job Summit “demonstrates the power of working together to find creative solutions and it demonstrates the power of taking immediate action.”? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister of Youth Affairs) 
: 
 I am afraid that the member has misquoted me; that quote was with regard to the Job Support Scheme. With regard to the Job Support Scheme I certainly say that it demonstrates the power of working together to find creative solutions and that it demonstrates the power of taking immediate action. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Why then given the Minister’s belief in and response to the development of new policies around joblessness—and as she stated the power of taking immediate action—has she not announced a plan or invested in any new initiatives to address the problem of youth unemployment despite an extra 10300 20 to 24-year-olds becoming unemployed in the March quarter alone and almost one in five 15 to 19-year-olds being unemployed? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I am pleased to stand up and talk about what we are doing on youth unemployment— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I prefer that the member answer the question. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: The member asked about youth unemployment and I am very happy to stand up and talk about that. The Mayors Task Force for Jobs is a good example of a budget allocation being increased for assistance. McDonald’s and Work and Income have just signed an agreement for a partnership that will bring in 6000 new jobs over the next 3 years. At the Job Summit Work and Income talked to TradeMe and they have an agreement that at the end of each week the jobs from TradeMe are downloaded and go directly to young people that need jobs. I tell members to watch this space for more that we will do. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Will the Minister adopt any ideas other than those generated by McDonald’s such as those ideas generated by the Youth Jobs Summit I hosted last week including greater investment in skills and training lifting the cap for tertiary education and introducing a guaranteed employment or training scheme for the long-term unemployed under the age of 25 years given that the Minister sees the power of working together to create creative solutions? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: The member keeps getting the quote wrong but we will just go with that. The Opposition has been very critical of the Job Summit as being a talkfest but faced with the success of the Prime Minister’s Job Summit and the 13 regional job summits which more than 1700 people attended Labour is starting to change its tune. Unfortunately Labour’s Youth Jobs Summit was a bit of a fizzer: contrary to Ms Ardern’s press release only 20-odd delegates were not Labour Party people. Actually those delegates were seen to be complaining at the lack of— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the House has heard sufficient. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: I seek leave to table the full list of those who were registered and attended the Labour Youth Jobs Summit which includes over 60 delegates— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought—[ 
Interruption 
] There will be some silence in the House. I know that today has been very testy but there will be a little decorum. Has the member sought leave to table a document? 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Yes Mr Speaker—a document listing the registrations of those who attended— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought— 
Jacinda Ardern 
: —including a representative— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: When leave is sought to table a document once the document is established there is no need to add further to it. The member will do well to learn that. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Don’t yell at women members! 
Hon Member 
: He’s got to go for that! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am sorely tempted. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt but can I just confirm that the member will be tabling a document that gives the names and addresses of all the attendees? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The House gave leave for tabling a document and that is the end of the matter. 
Simon Bridges 
: Can the Minister give an example of initiatives that demonstrate the power of working together to find creative solutions and of “taking immediate action.”? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: I certainly can. At the time of the Job Summit Work and Income and TradeMe began talking about how to better connect people to the jobs that are advertised out there. They agreed that TradeMe would send Work and Income a weekly list of all of their vacancies broken down by region. Work and Income would then forward those vacancies directly to unemployed beneficiaries for them to follow up. As a result we are seeing more jobs filled by people on the unemployment benefit. 
Question No. 10 to Minister 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want to make this point relatively briefly; it relates to the answers to questions given by the Minister of Education. Twice or possibly three times during her answers she referred to comments that I had made when I had actually not made those comments— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Can I finish the point of order? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat when I am on my feet. The problem is that there is no provision under the Standing Orders for the member to question the quality of an answer. There is no provision for that and I cannot allow him to use a point of order to question the accuracy of an answer unless the member has taken personal offence and seeks leave to make a personal explanation. I did not write the Standing Orders but I have to uphold them. I apologise for sitting the member down but I have to do so. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that Speakers in the past have taken a practice of playing a little bit of advantage when it is likely to lead to less disorder going forward. I want to tell the House— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will not tell the House when he is questioning and he will take his seat. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I am not questioning your ruling; I am questioning the member’s lies. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat right now. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: She just tells lies all the time. What am I to do about it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will leave the Chamber for the rest of the day. I make it very clear that the member will be out of the House for the remainder of this sitting day. 
Hon Trevor Mallard withdrew from the Chamber. 
General Debate 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police) 
: 
 I move  
That the House take note of miscellaneous business 
. Earlier this year when a lone police sergeant was lured into a trap by 300 illegal street racers and their supporters we saw in New Zealand an extraordinarily ugly side of illegal street-racing activities. We saw a truly criminal element. The fact that those people attempted to get the police officer out of his car and that his life was endangered showed this Government that it needed to act and that it needed to act quickly. So I thank the Prime Minister the Minister of Transport and my colleagues for the support they have given to the illegal street racing legislation. 
New Zealanders were told by the previous Labour Government that it had sorted out the problem and that the Hon Clayton Cosgrove had put through some bills—which we supported as well—to deal with the situation. Unfortunately that was only part of the story. We found there were numerous loopholes. One of them was the fact that the so-called illegal street racers could hide behind their mothers’ skirts or even their nanas’ skirts and have the car in nana’s name. They thought that we could not touch them; of course under the current law frankly we really cannot. So the legislation that Steven Joyce and I are bringing into the House will deal with that. We will be able to look behind the veil of vehicle ownership. One of the other things the current law allows those people to do if their cars have been confiscated and set up for sale is to sell them to a mate next door for $100 and therefore void the whole confiscation. That is the sort of loophole that this Government is trying to close to prevent the courts and the law from being held in contempt by those people in their activities. 
If any members wonder whether we should be taking the action we are taking I suggest they think about the residents of places like Bealey Avenue in Christchurch and the people whose businesses have been destroyed. They should think about the people in the Southern Cross Hospital there who have to shift patients out from their rooms every weekend or every night it happens and take them somewhere else because people cannot sleep. It is not just the noise that has been destroying lives; it is the fact that so much damage is being done. I listened this morning to Radio New Zealand and I heard so many people from Christchurch talking about the damage that has been done. Not one of those people said they wanted to be identified by their name or their address. The reason is that they are frightened of the violence that is being meted out to them in that community and in other communities from one end of New Zealand to the other. We have had people from Dunedin to Kaitaia contact Minister Joyce and me. They are people who have had their property values absolutely destroyed who have had their health destroyed and who are living with fear and intimidation. Those people need strong action. 
I am surprised that the Labour Opposition has said that the legislation is just window dressing. If this legislation is window dressing what was Labour’s legislation? All I can say is that it was a few bits of lace curtain. Labour’s comment is absolute rubbish! Labour should be supporting this bill to the hilt. It should be supporting the police it should be supporting the courts and it should be supporting the judges not bagging them as I heard the Leader of the Opposition do yesterday. It is no wonder that people do not respect the rule of law when the Leader of the Opposition is bagging judges. It is no wonder that that happens. In fact Labour should be supporting the good law-abiding people of Christchurch the good law-abiding people from one end of the country to the other the Automobile Association and the people who have to pick up the pieces—the St John’s ambulance staff and the police—they have to be supported. This Government is not going to stand by and say it is too hard and that we might upset the human right to do burn-outs. I tell members that there is no human right to do burn-outs. There is however a human right to be allowed to live in peace and to get on with one’s business and not to have to put up with the sort of behaviour that has been visited on good law-abiding members of the community. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Who disagrees? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Actually Mr Cosgrove does. Mr Cosgrove was very very funny about it yesterday and talked about how the legislation was only window dressing. He said that Labour members would support it to go through the first reading but they were not too sure about it after that. Well I suggest that Mr Cosgrove goes back down to the 300-majority seat he holds in Waimakariri and explains to the good people there why this illegal street-racing legislation is not good enough for them and why they do not want to see the very worst recidivist offenders dealt with. That is what he wants so I suggest he actually does that. I think it is extremely important that the people of this country know who supports them—who supports law-abiding people and who supports criminals. 
JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 A lot is hanging on tomorrow’s Budget in this time of multiple challenges to our economy and to our way of life. Unemployment is predicted to go over 7 percent and people are asking whether the Government has a plan to keep people in work. People are also asking whether it will be meaningful work that will leave the economy stronger. That after all was the stated purpose of the Job Summit. Let us hope that that work will not consist of digging holes and filling them in again as people did in a previous recession. 
People are asking whether the Government has a plan to start a transition to a low-carbon economy that will be less reliant on oil and more resilient to price shocks or whether the Budget will assume that we will return to a business-as-usual economy—an extremely wasteful consumption-oriented and unequal economy—as soon as the recession is over. People are asking whether the Government has a plan to protect our main marketing advantage our reputation—not really justified—for environmental responsibility and clean green production. People are asking whether the Government has a plan to unlock the creativity of our communities allowing good ideas to flourish and be supported creating new small businesses and jobs and strengthening community relationships. 
We in the Greens suspect that the answer is no the Government does not have such a plan. We note that Labour is not putting forward anything to achieve these goals either. The Green Party does have such a plan. It is called the Green New Deal. The first step towards it is our economic stimulus package announced a couple of weeks ago which is what we would do in tomorrow’s Budget to haul ourselves out of both economic recession and environmental crisis at the same time. 
With a very modest investment of just $3.3 billion over 3 years the package would create more than 43000 new jobs. It would create a stronger economy with less demand for electricity as a result of major energy-efficiency improvements. That would delay the need for more power stations and give us better security of supply. It would reduce our oil imports by moving funding out of low-quality spending on new motorways which struggle to even break even on a benefit-cost ratio and into high-quality spending on increasing public transport capacity and attractiveness so as to carry a lot more people and on safer cycling and walking. 
The Green Party’s plan would leave us with healthier people and lower hospital costs as people’s homes were made warm and dry. It would leave us with 6000 more homes. It would employ out-of-work builders plumbers and electricians and make a sizable dent in the waiting list of homeless people. It would raise business productivity as energy costs would be contained by investing in efficiency. It would stimulate a range of community businesses in waste recovery iwi housing initiatives car pooling and dial-a-bus schemes. 
I look forward tomorrow to the announcement of one of those Green New Deal initiatives which we have been able to negotiate with the Government—a large-scale home insulation programme. I challenge the Government to pick up the rest of our programme in order to counter the effects of the economic recession and the environmental crisis at the same time to employ our people to leave our economy stronger and to give the people of New Zealand hope. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 I am very proud to be part of a Government that yesterday introduced two bills addressing illegal street racing and to have had a personal role in bringing one of those the Land Transport (Enforcement Powers) Amendment Bill to the House. I think it is a sign of a very busy Government. If we look at all the things that the Government has announced over the last couple of weeks we see that after only 5 months in office the Government is moving fast to deal with some of the issues facing New Zealand in important areas like economic growth and productivity law and order and better provision of public services. 
Tomorrow of course we have a Budget and I would like to introduce a brief comment about economic reality because I think we will all come up fast against it tomorrow. It will be a tough Budget. It would be tough for any country. It will be a Budget in which we need to talk about economic growth growth of productivity controlling expenditure and also about looking after the revenue side. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Hear hear! Yes! 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The interesting thing about that is—and I note the expressions of agreement from the Hon David Cunliffe opposite—that I have not heard anything from Labour members on any of those matters. In fact I read a very interesting article in the  
Independent 
 last week in which the Hon David Cunliffe gave us a history lesson on economics and followed it by saying that Labour’s solution would have been simply not to do any of its pledges and to have a mini-Budget in December 2008. Well here we are in May 2009 only 6 months later and we have not heard a word from them about what they would do. 
We have had a lot of criticism about the National Government’s expenditure changes. In fact I think Labour has opposed just about every single one of the National Government’s expenditure changes. We have had lots of criticism about that. We have also had lots of criticism of National’s initiatives around productivity and growth and no solutions at all from the Opposition. Labour members will get their chance tomorrow after the Budget to tell us exactly in the words of the Leader of the Opposition and the finance spokesperson exactly what they are going to do if they are ever given the opportunity again. 
The difficulty is that those members do not want the New Zealand Government to take any of the tough decisions and it is exemplified in one of the areas I am particularly familiar with: transport. On the one hand those members are telling the Government it should build the big Waterview Connection tunnels for $2.77 billion and on the other hand they are saying we should not change the Government policy statement on transport at all both at the same time. They say they do not have a means of funding it but they do not want to change the funding to be able to afford anything from within it. Those members have no solutions whatsoever. 
Those members will have to answer to New Zealand—ideally I think before the Mt Albert by-election; that would be the honest thing to do—whether they are saying that they would add $2.77 billion to whatever the Government debt figure turns out to be in the Budget tomorrow to build the deep tunnels of the Waterview Connection or whether they finally agree that the Government has it right with its policy. I think that is a fair question for New Zealanders to ask because it is not a trifling sum of money in anybody’s language; $2.77 billion is a lot of money. I think the public of Mt Albert are owed an answer before the by-election next month; they are owed it very soon. At least this Government has been honest with the public and the people of Mt Albert. We have stepped up and said “This is what we’re prepared to fund”. I look forward to seeing what the Labour Party’s solution is. This is one of the bigger discretionary amounts that could have been in the Budget tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what their views are of that particular announcement. 
The National Government is very focused on jobs in tomorrow’s Budget. Some of the things we have already announced include State highway improvements of a billion dollars improving maternity services by $103 million upgrading Middlemore Hospital by another $208 million $50 million on the cycleway project $40 million for the social services Community Response Fund and of course we are maintaining all the training as well. In the face of the world’s toughest recession we are focused on jobs. The members on the other side can bleat all they like that they want us to be focused on jobs but the fact is that we are. Those members need to answer the tough questions about expenditure and what things they would control including the big-ticket items like the Waterview Connection. Thank you. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 It is a bit rich to be lectured about honesty by a party in Government that campaigned on tax cuts it knew it could not afford. It was selling a lie to the New Zealand public. That lie was under the signature of John Key. The lie was that you can have everything you have got under Labour you can have Working for Families you can have transport— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Speaker does not wish to have some of those things. I did not pull the honourable member up a moment ago when he was getting very marginal about what he was saying as well. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: The Speaker is wise and I apologise. National told New Zealanders that they could have Working for Families protected superannuation and 3 years’ worth of tax cuts as well. The crime is not in changing that; the crime was in promising it after the IMF told everybody that the world economy was going to heck in a handbasket after Lehman Brothers hit the wall and by the way after the New Zealand Labour Party campaigning for a fourth term in office pruned back its election commitments because we were fiscally prudent and acting with integrity. I ask Mr Joyce to please spare us the lecture on honesty because we have been honest about our promises. 
Tomorrow is Budget day. Tomorrow is a Budget that must be about jobs. It has to be about jobs because ordinary decent hard-working New Zealanders are living in fear of losing theirs. I understand that this week alone 1250 extra people registered for unemployment—1250 New Zealanders. Their families their livelihoods their dignity their homes and their mortgages are under threat and what is this Government doing about it? In the last few weeks the Government has been running a campaign to soften up New Zealanders by talking about debt. Government members had the Secretary to the Treasury running around making exaggerated claims about $50 billion of extra debt—shame on them. They even brought in Standard and Poor’s as extras in this great charade. The problem this Government has now is that its public relations campaign fell apart because the ratings agencies themselves said that debt is not New Zealand’s No. 1 problem. We have low debt because the previous Labour Government left this Government with the second-lowest debt in the Western World. We had 17.5 percent gross debt and zero net debt. Most countries would give an arm and a leg for that starting point. Most Governments would want to have that to start with. 
Debt is not the No. 1 problem; I ask members to guess what the real No. 1 problem is. It is the other deficit—the deficit in the real economy. It is the export deficit and it is the jobs deficit. Tomorrow when the Government unveils its great plan it had better be a plan that addresses that deficit. It had better be a plan like Michael Savage’s plan which gave New Zealanders confidence and hope that the end to a recession was in sight. If it does not then it will mean that some extra New Zealanders will lose their jobs and their homes because the balance that this Government has struck will not be the best balance. 
I think all members of this House agree that this will not be an easy Budget. That is beyond dispute. I think all members of this House including the Greens agree that fiscal prudence is required and it certainly would be if Labour was in Government. But the goalposts we have to kick this ball between are on the one hand making sure that we manage prudently and on the other making sure that not one New Zealander unnecessarily loses his or her job because that Government is not doing enough to protect New Zealanders. I want to see no stone left unturned no programme left untested no State house that could have been built left unbuilt and no public transport programme that could have been laid down not laid down because that Government did not have the nerve to face down ratings agencies and take sustainable growth to the furthermost point that it could. 
It is a bit rich to be lectured about honesty by a Government that thinks it is OK to suspend payments into the superannuation fund and to pretend that there will be no cuts to benefits. It is a Government that does not know what it really thinks. 
NICKY WAGNER (National) 
: 
 Every day that I come into this House I mentally thank the people of New Zealand for voting for National at the last election. I thank the public for voting for National so decisively that at last after 9 long years of Labour our Government can finally get on with building a new stronger and better New Zealand. After 9 long years of mediocrity of a lack of aspiration of trending downhill economically and of boy racers we have a Government that is taking action on the things that matter to New Zealanders the most. 
Yesterday at last common-sense legislation was announced to deal to boy racers but why did we have to wait so long for it? Since I came into Parliament I have been agitating for action. Until we got a National Government I was hitting my head against a thick Labour Government brick wall with Harry Duynhoven sitting perched on top of it. Labour dragged the chain and the problem became worse and worse. As Labour looked on the boy-racer culture developed grew and flourished. Dangerous driving noise and antisocial behaviour was everywhere in our cities in our towns and at gatherings across the countryside. As Labour dragged the chain families businesses hospitals and even animals bore the brunt of its lack of action. New Zealand developed a tarnished international reputation for that bizarre behaviour which affected our tourist expectations and the income that comes into Christchurch from tourism. 
Night after night people were disturbed kept awake and intimidated by hordes of boy racers who were indulging themselves in fast noisy alcohol-fuelled good times at the expense of everyone else. Unless you heard it yourself you cannot imagine the threatening effect— 
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You required David Cunliffe not to address members as “you”. The member just said “Unless you”. If we are to have the same rules for all members then the member must not address the Chair in that way. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise for not having picked that up. The honourable member will please comply. 
NICKY WAGNER 
: Thank you Mr Speaker. Unless people have heard it themselves they cannot imagine the threatening effect created by large numbers of souped-up high-decibel cars screeching around city streets or down country roads. It sounds as if the city is out of control and it feels like anarchy. People hate it. They are well and truly over it. 
In my city of Christchurch people have been calling for Government action for years and this week they got it. There is much delight in having a “three strikes and you’re out” option to crush cars in the legislation. People who have lived the nightmare of having boy racers in their neighbourhood will love to see an end to the cars that make their lives a misery. But there is also a reasonableness about New Zealanders so they support the giving of a series of warnings to boy racers before drastic action is taken. There are three deliberate steps towards the crusher. Everyone was young once but there is absolute support for a process that means repeat offending has a real consequence. A crushed car cannot race; a crushed car cannot disturb the peace. 
The real practical value of this legislation is the provision of more tools for the police. I have worked closely with the police on this issue in Christchurch and I believe they have done a great job with limited resources. While most of us were home in bed and complaining—and the phones to the police station ring hot at night—the police were out there night after night dealing with these issues. It has been a very frustrating exercise. I am particularly pleased that this legislation will give the police the tools to make a difference and the police are pleased about that too. I pass my congratulations on to the Minister of Police Judith Collins and to the Minister of Transport Steven Joyce. This sensible legislation will work. It will make New Zealand a better place to live and work in and it will make New Zealand a much more attractive tourist destination which will help those dollars to come in. Thank you. 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Labour—Port Hills) 
: 
 Tomorrow is the National-led Government’s first Budget and every week we see 300 more New Zealanders losing their jobs. The member who has just resumed her seat Nicky Wagner has just wasted 5 minutes of the country’s life talking about crushing cars. It seriously beggars belief that when one person loses his or her job let alone 300 people every week crushing cars is considered to be the issue on which the entire Parliament should spend its time. Frankly it beggars belief. 
She also failed to tell the full truth which is no surprise at all and is entirely consistent with her behaviour and that of her colleagues. She said there had been total inaction over the last 9 years from the previous Labour Government but she failed—through a lapse of memory I am sure rather than through deliberately misleading the House—to mention the fact that the previous Labour Government took measures to take boy racers off the streets. One measure ensured that boy racers have their cars noise-tested. If the noise of their car is over 95 decibels they are required to bring it down to 90. We gave judges the power to take cars from boy racers who behave badly on their first offence not on their third offence as the “Crusher Bill” aims to. 
Despite that we certainly support the improved measures in the bill going to a select committee. Let us see whether those measures deliver. Let us see whether they will work. It is interesting that despite the member’s promise to the people of Canterbury—which I heard during the election campaign—to ensure that no vehicle over 90 decibels would be allowed on our streets and that cease and desist orders would be introduced neither of those measures was delivered. It was another broken promise. 
The people of New Zealand are looking for leadership from their Government in the Budget particularly in the area of jobs. This is a time when New Zealand more than ever needs a real jobs plan not just gimmicks. We do not want any more talkfests or rhetoric and words; we want a real plan and real action for jobs. The 9-day fortnight the cycleway and the equity fund have done nothing to stem the loss of jobs for New Zealanders. There is no greater gift a Government can give to an ordinary New Zealander than the dignity of a paid job. That is something National members should realise is within their grasp as a Government. Instead of leading the unemployment increase by pushing public servants out of jobs and ignoring the desperate need for support of New Zealand businesses they could be taking up the opportunity for leadership that the role of Government provides and give hard-working ordinary New Zealanders who are now in danger of losing their jobs that gift that dignity of a paid job. 
The only jobs John Key and Bill English seem to care about are their own and that is not good enough for the rest of New Zealand. Not everyone has the opportunity to come into Parliament. It is a privilege and a responsibility. Government members should take up that leadership opportunity and provide the country with a real plan for real jobs in the Budget tomorrow. The Government is leaving all the hard work and heavy lifting to ordinary New Zealanders who should not have to bear that huge responsibility on their own. 
We know that ordinary families are having to do more with less are suffering more stress and more anxiety and have less money. Uncertainty and stress are not the way in which we should treat New Zealand families. We should be providing them with the support they deserve and with certainty for the future. It is difficult for a family when it is facing mounting bills and mounting pressure. 
JACQUI DEAN (National—Waitaki) 
: 
 I will talk about the Budget. This National Government came into power at the end of 2008 with a very very strong vision for the future and that vision was about jobs and growth. I am very excited at the prospect of the Minister of Finance Bill English delivering his first Budget tomorrow. 
But first before I talk about the Budget I will congratulate Minister Judith Collins and Minister Steven Joyce on the excellent initiative they have taken to tackle the issue of boy racers. The Opposition might not think that it is terribly important to tackle that issue but I believe it is. I believe that the long-suffering people of Christchurch and people up and down the country who live in fear of boy racers finally have some direction from these two excellent Ministers. The problem was too hard for the previous Labour Government. It tried but it was just too hard. It did the window dressing but the real work has been left up to this excellent National Government. 
But I need to talk about the Budget because that is the most important thing happening this week. This Budget is about jobs. This Budget continues to implement the National Government’s job and growth plan for New Zealand. That is why we won the election. We won the election because we have the vision the strength and the commitment to carry out our jobs and growth plan for New Zealand. This Budget will continue to support New Zealanders on low incomes by maintaining the entitlements they receive. That is so important and it is news that has been welcomed in all quarters. 
We already know a couple of things about tomorrow’s Budget and there are one or two things I would like to highlight this afternoon. One of those things is State Highway improvements to the tune of $1 billion. That is significant—$1 billion. That investment will translate into jobs for New Zealand. That is significant. The people of New Zealand have not been forgotten. I was terribly excited to hear of the improvements in maternity services worth $103.5 million. We care about young mothers. The National Government cares about young mothers so we are committing money in the Budget to improving maternity services. But I have to say that the announcement on the New Zealand cycleway project will have a real impact on jobs in New Zealand. How do I know that? Because in my own electorate we have the Otago Central Rail Trail. Over the past 10 years the Otago Central Rail Trail has provided real economic benefit not just to Central Otago but to New Zealand as a whole. Why? Because the Otago Central Rail Trail which was developed with community passion and involvement is providing jobs—in the hospitality sector the bike retail sector and the tourism sector. A number of farming families were struggling. Those farming families have now taken the opportunity to provide hospitality and accommodation to travellers. There is a real economic renewal happening in Central Otago and with that comes a confidence in the future of New Zealand. It is that confidence that is so important to New Zealand and that confidence that the Budget that is to be delivered tomorrow will bring to New Zealand. 
A number of other announcements have already been made in advance of tomorrow’s Budget 2009. There will be $20 million allocated for oil and gas exploration. The National Government knows about sustainability. The National Government also knows about economic growth. Here is yet another example of a Government that is prepared to make the hard calls for the good of New Zealand. The police have not been forgotten. There will be Tasers for police throughout the country to the tune of $10 million. That has already been announced as being part of Budget 2009. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 As we all know tomorrow is Budget day. The Budget is being written against the background of sharply rising unemployment—shockingly rising unemployment—in New Zealand. Twenty thousand people have lost their jobs in the last 3 months. The Labour Government placed emphasis on two things. Closest to our hearts will always be high employment and low unemployment. As a Government we succeeded in bringing down unemployment in New Zealand to the lowest rate in the world. That is a position we swapped with South Korea from month to month—we were the lowest or second lowest in the world. 
Our other principle was that in a time of plenty—and there were boom times around the world and in New Zealand—we held out against National’s irresponsible calls for unaffordable long-term tax cuts. We focused our tax cuts on families with children and as a consequence we ran Budget surpluses year after year which reduced Government debt. The Government debt that this National Government inherited was amongst the lowest in the world and the third lowest in the OECD. So when we hear from the National Government that it has no room to move to moderate the effects on unemployment caused by the current recession we know it is not telling the correct position to the public. National inherited more room to move than virtually every other Government in the world. It inherited the third lowest Government debt in the OECD. 
National must be held responsible for its Budget. The Budget will not do enough for unemployment because National does not put as high a value on keeping people in work as Labour always does and as we did when we were in Government. That value was evidenced by the fact that we left the incoming Government with amongst the lowest unemployment rate in the world and more room to move than just about every other Government in the world because we also left them low Government debt. 
What has the Government been doing about unemployment? It has said its first priority is infrastructure. Let us look at what the Government is doing on infrastructure. One of the biggest areas of infrastructure in New Zealand is what we spend on the power sector. During the time of the previous Labour Government we increased the amount spent on transmission infrastructure tenfold from about $50 million a year to $500 million per year. What has the National Government done in that area? That is right: it has done nothing. Actually it has done something: it heralded its plan to bring forward the painting of some pylons. What a pathetic extra spend on infrastructure in that area! 
What about in the area of roading? Who increased expenditure on roading and public transport? It was the previous Labour-led Government. What has the National Government been doing on infrastructure in that area? It has been telling people down my way that increased spending on infrastructure is what will keep unemployment low. South of Christchurch in Dunedin Otago and Southland no extra infrastructure is being built—not schools hospitals roads or power other than painting some pylons. The message we are getting from the National Government is that the South Island does not matter. You are certainly not putting money into infrastructure. In fact you are already selling State houses in Dunedin. You are not even reinvesting the money in new State houses in Dunedin; you are taking it out of Dunedin. You are not reinvesting it even in Queenstown which has the highest housing costs in New Zealand. You are not reinvesting in even one State house. 
David Garrett 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think I counted the Hon David Parker using the word “you” five times. If members want to be picky the rules need to be applied equally. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: I thank the member. The member is correct: the member speaking should not bring the Speaker into the debate. It is all very well to identify a person and then go on to refer to “you” but to constantly use the word “you” brings the Speaker into the debate. 
Hon DAVID PARKER 
: I accept the point of order. 
The Government is not spending one cent of the money it is taking from the sale of State houses in Dunedin on other State houses. The Government is not spending one dollar on State houses in Queenstown which has the highest cost of housing in New Zealand. None of the money is going into South Island in infrastructure. 
What is National doing in respect of its Job Summit? We have heard about its much-lauded cycleway which is now being seen as a damp squib. I actually agree with cycling as a priority but it should not be sold as the big fix for unemployment because it is not. National members talked about the Job Summit being a “do-fest” and not a talkfest which is another bit of tortured grammar from the National members. They are not just ruining the employment market; they screw up the language at every point. But they are not doing anything to support the real economy. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) 
: 
 I came down to the House 5 minutes ago intending to speak on the issue of infrastructure. David Parker could not have given me a better lead-in to that. One of the challenges this country faces is its declining living standards. The previous Labour Government came into power 9 years ago with a promise of raising New Zealand to the top half of the OECD. What happened? We dropped. Our living standards dropped and the income differential between us and Australia increased. I campaigned for the ACT Party at the general election on the issue of raising our living standards. We in the ACT Party would have liked to see parity be achieved with Australia by 2020 but we have had to settle with the National Government on doing that by 2025. What raises living standards? Nothing raises living standards more than raising productivity does. How do we raise productivity? We need to have infrastructure and investment. 
I am campaigning in the Mt Albert by-election and I hope to become the MP for Mt Albert. I am campaigning to win and I believe that I can win. I would like to talk about the Waterview Connection between Mount Roskill and Mount Albert to Waterview. Yesterday the New Zealand Transport Agency held a briefing for all the candidates so that we would know exactly what was going on and could go out and inform people. It was very interesting to note that probably the chief scaremonger—in fact I would say the scaremonger-in-chief—Russel Norman did not even have the courtesy to turn up and find out the facts. Why let the facts get in the way when we can scare people and spread misinformation? Why worry about the facts? Why worry about the truth? Russel Norman did not even turn up to that briefing. 
I am pleased to say the Labour Party candidate David Shearer turned up with a posse of TV cameras. He came along to have a debate. He did not come along to listen and to learn; he came along to have a debate. He was told very plainly and very clearly by Mr Dangerfield the chief executive of the New Zealand Transport Agency that that was not the agenda. It was not a meeting to debate the issue; it was a briefing held to inform candidates. It is a pity that Mr Shearer did not stay for the whole meeting. If he had stayed for the whole meeting instead of rushing off to try to get some more votes and shake some more hands he would have been better informed. Mr Shearer is going around the electorate and telling people in Mount Albert that the Waterview Connection will cut a hole right through the middle of Mount Albert. He is going around scaremongering and telling the people that this road which this country desperately needs in order to complete the motorway and to unlock the benefits of it will divide the people of Mount Albert. 
Mr Shearer and the Labour Party need to understand that the New Zealand Transport Agency is proposing New Zealand’s most expensive road two-thirds of which will be underground. Two-thirds of this road will be underground. The New Zealand Transport Agency has identified 360 homes that could be affected by it but probably the most interesting point for me that I heard yesterday was that only approximately 200 of those homes will need to be demolished. Two hundred of those 360 homes will need to be demolished and the other 160 will be left standing. Yes it will be very difficult for people to live in those homes during the course of the construction of the road and the New Zealand Transport Agency would like to buy those homes. But ultimately at the end of the project those homes will be available for people to move back into if they want to. They can be refurbished and they can be onsold. 
It is interesting that only 200 homes will be demolished. How does that compare with the previous Labour Government’s scheme? Under Labour’s scheme 160 homes were to be demolished. We are looking at the loss of a further 40 homes. The scheme put up by this Government will cost $1.5 billion compared with Labour’s pie-in-the-sky scheme which would have cost $3 billion. Mr Parker talked about the need for infrastructure to be built. The way to get infrastructure built is by not wasting money. The reality is that this country is not rich enough to be able to afford a $3 billion tunnel. 
Mr Parker talked about the building of infrastructure. He criticised the former National Government for its failure to build infrastructure. I agree with Mr Parker in so far as the 1990s are concerned. The 1990s were a decade of a huge loss of opportunity. The Mount Roskill to Waterview Connection should have been built 15 years ago if not earlier than that. The 1990s were a period of massive lost opportunity. Helen Clark’s Government was very slow to get going but at least it got going and signed a contract to extend the motorway. That Government built the section of the motorway from Hillsborough to Mount Roskill. But if that Government was as good or as generous as Mr Parker claims it was why did it not carry on and complete the section from Mount Roskill to Waterview? It did not have to stop the project at Mount Roskill; it could have carried on. Why did it not carry on? It was because that Government wanted to perpetuate a hoax on the people of Mount Albert by telling them that somehow it was going to build a tunnel. 
AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn) 
: 
 When I came to this House I came here very proudly to represent the people of Selwyn. There are an awful lot of issues facing the people of Selwyn but one that is very dear to their hearts that they have spoken to me often about and that is of serious concern to me is the menace of boy racers on our streets. There are other issues facing New Zealand and I certainly do not downplay their importance. But when I started hearing stories about an 85-year-old in my electorate who was effectively held hostage for 2 hours late at night because he had the audacity to drive down a road that these idiots were using that was not acceptable to me. Frankly I cannot believe how often in the last 6 months we have had to deal with issues that the previous Labour Government ineffectually minced around for 9 years. Clearly National in its term has stood up and its Prime Minister said very early on that National was a Government that was putting its communities first that this was a Government that was not going to be intimidated by those bully-boys. This week two of our excellent and effective Ministers have done what Clayton Cosgrove and his colleagues could not or would not do. I do not know whether they could not figure out the answer or whether they were just too scared to tackle the problem but let me say that they failed the people of Canterbury they certainly failed the people of Selwyn and I think they failed all of New Zealand. Clayton Cosgrove might have squeaked back in in Waimakariri by a handful of votes—heaven knows how—but the people of Canterbury are not happy with the previous Government’s failure to get any action on boy racing. 
The Government has this week introduced the Vehicle Confiscation and Seizure Bill and the Land Transport (Enforcement Powers) Bill. I have no doubt that those bills will finally make a significant and real difference to this issue. Maybe the previous Labour Government did not realise what a big problem this is. Maybe it did not care. Let us give it the benefit of the doubt and suggest that maybe it did not understand the issue. I will tell Labour members that in 2004 in Canterbury alone we were looking at around 350 offences for boy racing annually. By 2008 that had blown out to 1900 offences. That is a fivefold increase—a 100 percent increase a year. This is an exploding problem it is a serious problem and we do not currently have the tools available to deal with it because the previous Government failed to take it seriously. It failed to make it a priority. This Government will not accept that. 
Minister Judith Collins earlier on in this debate—and I commend the Minister for her excellent work—said something that is absolutely right. Boy racers have no right to keep people awake while they scream up and down Bealey Avenue Lincoln Road Shands Road or through Templeton. They have no right to intimidate people do damage to their property keep them in their houses or hold up old men on the side of the road. But I will tell members something. Communities do have a right to sleep they do have a right to feel safe in their homes and they do have a right to expect to have a Government that does something about it. I am very pleased that this Government is doing something about it. It was obvious to this Government that there were loopholes in the existing legislation. The teeth that the law had were not effective. We made it a priority early on in our term of Government to do something about it. Those bills will go a long way towards doing that. 
I do not think anyone in this House would be prepared to stand up and say that it is OK to have a policeman lured into large crowds of 1000 people or more—often they are young people—to be shot at and to be pelted with bottles. He could have been killed. That is not an acceptable situation. It deserves urgent attention and it has had that attention. It is not acceptable to me that residents of whole streets including people in hospital wards motels and many many homes cannot sleep at night and have to be moved. Often they are too scared to leave their homes. Those people are often too scared to ring the police because of the violent retribution that these thugs are known for. We cannot as a society sit back and mince around the edges because we are scared of them. I have already had a rock through a window in my patch and if that is retribution from these idiots then I say that is fine! We on this side of the House will stand up to them. We will not let this bully-boy behaviour carry on. 
The people of Selwyn have spoken very clearly to me on this issue. When I talked to them recently and surveyed them this was one of the issues that there was almost complete agreement on. It is not acceptable for this sort of carry-on to continue. Additional tools need to be put in the police tool box. Ministers have done an excellent job of working with local police local groups and councils to come up with a set of solutions that will make a significant difference. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
: 
 There is one piece of information that this general debate should be focusing on today and that is the 20000 new jobless Kiwis whom we saw come out of the March quarter alone. This general debate should not be about the 90 decibels from the cars of street racers. We acknowledge the issue but our focus at this time in Budget week should be on the 20000 new jobless Kiwis whom we saw in the March quarter alone. It is the Government’s job to protect Kiwis’ jobs. It is the Government’s role to do this; it even acknowledged this through its very own Job Summit. In forming the Job Summit the Government acknowledged that it did have a role to play in job creation. What did we see come out of that summit? What did we see generated by the National Government in order to address the needs concerns and fears of Kiwis? There were two things and they are being addressed by my colleagues. 
The first idea was a cycleway and even though I do not oppose the idea in principle I do not believe it will generate the kind of solution that we need. The second idea was the 9-day working fortnight. That measure has saved 117 jobs amongst the 20000 new jobless. I will look at this issue in more context because I have a particular interest in young people. The statistics for that age demographic are particularly worrying. In the March quarter alone 10300 young people became unemployed. Almost one in five 15 to 19-year-olds is without work without a job and without hope. What has the Government done for this group? 
Usually we at least hear some rhetoric about what might happen or what the Government will do. I fail to hear that even from the other side of the House. Despite Paula Bennett calling it the Government’s No. 1 priority she has not even produced a statement stating that fact. Since that member has become the Minister of Youth Affairs she has produced on average one statement every 3 months. I do look beyond rhetoric but that in itself is an alarming point. It is Paula Bennett’s job to protect jobs and to help young people move into jobs. The Government cannot abdicate from that responsibility. I have looked for leadership on this issue. In question time today I asked for leadership on this issue. I received a response pointing to what McDonald’s has done. I asked what the Minister’s ideas were and I was told about McDonald’s. 
What else have I heard? We have given the Government other opportunities. I recently attended an event at which the Minister who holds responsibility for Kiwis’ livelihoods spoke. I heard her tell audience members that if someone in their street is made redundant it is their job to know—fair enough. Why did the Minister say this? It is not because the Minister thinks that they have a role in assisting the redundant person back into work; it is because she believes that they should make him or her a casserole. I looked for leadership on joblessness from the Minister and I found a shepherd’s pie and a Big Mac—that is all I have seen thus far. 
This Government cannot and should not abdicate responsibility for Kiwi jobs. We should not sit idly through this recession while Kiwis are made redundant. The measure of the Minister’s success will not be the number of casseroles that are made but the number of jobs saved and protected. Otherwise we run the risk of falling back into the slide of the 1990s when one-quarter of our young people were without work. We do have the time to turn this round. We have seen the first demonstration of the fact that we are on a slide and we have the time to turn it round. That is why the Labour Opposition took the initiative and created a specific Youth Jobs Summit which we invited all political parties of the House to participate in. From that summit we also had attendees from the Business Roundtable trade unions three political parties Business New Zealand the New Zealand Retailers Association the New Zealand University Students Association industry training organisations and the disability sector. 
The same group of people were represented at the Government’s Job Summit and we also had one of the Minister’s own representatives. These people generated ideas that we are challenging the Government to take up. One idea was to reinforce the importance of the Skills Strategy. Phil O’Reilly has said that from a business perspective the Skills Strategy is one of the most vital areas to retain investment in during a downturn. National’s response to the Skills Strategy is to review it. Labour members are asking the Government to look at its priorities again. A second idea was to keep people in tertiary education and allow people to be there—to lift the caps on tertiary education. What is National’s response? The National Government will not even meet with the New Zealand University Students Association to discuss the idea; it refuses to meet with that group. 
AARON GILMORE (National) 
: 
 Boy racers—hoons skangers barryboys scobes rice burners or whatever they are called in whichever corner of the world—are trouble. The first role of Government is to keep people safe in their homes—those were the words of Barack Obama just last week. This National-led Government led by the most popular Prime Minister in a generation will do something about it. 
East Christchurch where I live has had a few issues with these people. I say “people” because we all know that women can be labelled as boy racers and can belong to the boy-racer cult. Boy racers are not always young. Few 18-year-olds can afford the $10000 to $20000 cost of car modifications on the vehicles that I have seen. This cult of thuggery is one we need to do something about. 
My family has been involved for many years with all forms of petrolhead behaviour. We enjoy the pleasurable growl of a V8 the fine purr of a Harley Davidson and the sheer unadulterated ecstasy of being behind the wheel or under the bonnet of a Ford GTO or an AC Cobra Shelby. [ 
Interruption 
] I understand that even the Speaker of the House suffers from a similar affliction! Most of my uncles and aunts have raced on the dirt tracks of the speedway or on the tarmac at Ruapuna. They are all crazy hot-rodders. Nearly everyone in the family which numbers over 100 has been behind the wheel part of the pit crew or—like my mum—just a screamer in the crowds. I am told that petrol runs through our veins. In fact one of my jobs as a student was a warrant of fitness mechanic helping drivers to go faster while staying within the law. 
The law changes proposed by the Minister of Police Judith Collins will not impact on such good old-fashioned lovers of cars or on the law-abiding petrolheads up and down this country. However the muppets who talk about pimping up their cars to race who think that doing the Moorhouse Avenue lap at 2 a.m. makes them are cool hip or rad and who boast of their best drift are simply wrong and definitely are a public nuisance. I say to those people that they should get some real testicles. They should get off the road and compete with real drivers on the track. I bet they are not man enough to try to do it. The real big mouths I have seen trying to drive on a track fall flat on their faces and end up hitting a wall with the really skilled drivers and other car-racing New Zealanders laughing at them. 
New Zealand has a culture that is driven by movies such as  
The Fast and Furious: Tokyo Drift 
 and by racing video games such as  
The Need for Speed 
. Things are done in controlled environments on a movie set but our young people think they can do the same anywhere at any time. I grew up respecting the skill and ability of car drivers and the ability of people who modified vehicles to race. These are important skills but the place for them is not on the streets but on the track. 
When it comes to throwing bottles at our police reckless speeding that endangers others and horrific noise outside the homes of the good law-abiding people of Christchurch—or any other part of New Zealand—I say “Enough!” and this Government says “Enough!”. We will give the police more powers to do something about it. Although the member for Waimakariri is not in the House at the moment he calls it window dressing— 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: I think I can anticipate the point of order. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: You anticipated correctly. The member should not refer to the absence of honourable members from the House. Otherwise the issue goes round and round. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The point of order is quite correct. The member will not refer to the absence or otherwise of members from the House. 
Hon Anne Tolley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. While we are on the matter of the Standing Orders I thought there was a Standing Order that relates to eating in the House. When the previous point of order was raised I noticed that the member had difficulty actually making his point because he was chewing. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Well we could be picky about that. Members are allowed the odd mint. I am not sure whether the member has one or two but let us carry on with the debate. 
AARON GILMORE 
: We will give the police more powers and if that means that we take some lunatics off the streets and make our families feel safer in their homes then I say “Good on us!”. We will do that so that the good people of Christchurch can sleep safely in their homes and get a decent night’s sleep. If it means we have to crush a few cars I say we should go for it. I understand that 10 cars would have been crushed in 2007 if these proposed laws had been in place. There is ample allowance to keep people within the law and those people who want to stay within the law—out of the thousands of drivers—can learn the break points that may exist for them in terms of falling outside the law. 
This measure will stop people hiding from the issue by selling their vehicles to somebody else. I would like to see a few more steps taken as part of these laws. We might be able to auction off the rights to push the button to crush the first car—and I would be happy to be in line to do so. In fact this could perhaps be a profit-making enterprise. We could have a new State-owned enterprise—“Crusher Co.” perhaps. I know that I am not the only person in the blogosphere who would be in favour of this. 
I look forward to a situation in few years’ time where decent New Zealanders have peace and quiet in their homes in suburbia because of the hard work of our Minister of Police Judith Collins and our Minister of Transport Steven Joyce. I look forward to members on the other side of the House sitting back and saying that their homes are peaceful and quiet because of the laws National brought in to take lunatics off the streets. 
Our Government has aspirations for the future and I look forward to this happening. I want to be able to sit in my bed at night with my young children and know I will not have some idiot driving up and down my street at 95 decibels—or whatever the case may be—annoying my family or anybody else and showing intimidating behaviour towards our police. 
The debate having concluded the motion lapsed. 
Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill 
In Committee 
Debate resumed from 6 May. 
Part 1 Preliminary Provisions ( 
continued 
)  
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I have not had the opportunity to speak in the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill debate at this stage so I think that it is appropriate that I do so under a number of roles I have formerly held—as a Minister responsible for the commerce portfolio and for small business but also as a former Minister of Women’s Affairs. This issue of the minimum wage not being met for those who are in contracting arrangements is very very common in a number of industries that women work in. I think that this bill goes a long way to addressing what has always been an anomaly which is that once individuals are outside the parameters of the Employment Relations Act because they are not employees they are very vulnerable to ending up in a situation where they are earning quite considerably less than the minimum wage when we take into account all of their travelling time. 
I will use the example of home-help workers because I have a constituent who is a home-help worker and who came to me about 4 years ago with a petition she had gathered from a number of her charges—people whose private homes she went into to look after them. The reason she had come to see me was that she had ended up that particular week facing a very horrendous bill with her petrol. So she came to see me because she had literally come to the end of her tether in terms of what she could afford to do. Essentially once the travelling costs had been taken off her weekly pay she was much worse off than she had been 7 years before when she worked in a condom factory. I think there was an ironic juxtaposition between somebody who 7 years ago had been working in a condom factory—making obviously a very worthy contribution to that particular area—and earning considerably more than she was earning when looking after some of the most vulnerable members in our community: the elderly and those with disabilities. I thought that her case was a very important case; therefore I assisted her to bring her petition to Parliament. 
The petition was heard by the select committee and reported back to the House in due course and changes were made to the funding arrangements for home-care workers in two major respects. The first was a requirement by district health boards that in their contracting arrangements they had to require that the home-care industry provided for a travel policy in its contracts. So that was one very good outcome that arose from her taking that case. The other was a straight wage increase which was funded by a major injection of funds by the previous Government into the sector as a result of the need to address what was a major anomaly. Although she was an employee her circumstances were such that she was paid from the minute she walked into the house until the minute she walked out and none of the time she spent travelling from place to place was taken into account—which is essentially what brought her earnings below the minimum wage. Let us wind that back into the situation for those considered in the legislation now to be vulnerable workers and put those workers into a contracting situation. That is even worse because not only do they get caught out by ultimately working for under the minimum wage but they have far fewer of the protections that exist to protect employees under the Employment Relations Act. 
So I think that this legislation is important legislation and I congratulate Darien Fenton on bringing it to the House. I think that we often overlook the intention of legislation when we are looking at applying standard legislation across the board which is what the Employment Relations Act does. Sometimes we think that people who are in individual contracts for services—rather than contracts of service—are in a stronger position and can negotiate their own conditions of those contracts and that there is somehow a more level playing field. I think the point that Darien Fenton has made in bringing this legislation to the House is that that is not the case when we are talking about a relatively vulnerable workforce. If members want to look a bit further I think that that point has been well made. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I start by quoting from the explanatory note of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill: “The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Minimum Wage Act 1983 to extend its provisions to apply to payments under a contract for services that are remunerated at below the minimum wage.” I now share with the Committee another quote which is from a pretty big icon: “You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income. You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man’s initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Oh for goodness’ sake! 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: What was Mauri Pacific’s party policy? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I hear the Fabian Luddites across the way. The Fabians just loved to put people in little victim modes and then prey on them. The Fabians loved to prey on victims and to make the victims think they could not do anything for themselves so they had to have the nanny State. I tell members that this country is sick and tired of the interfering way of these Fabians here who are like the Fabians of a hundred years ago people like John Maynard Keynes—the deviant—the Webbs Ellis and all those guys from back about a hundred years ago. They are where the Labour Party comes from. 
Who is the quote from? The quote is from Abraham Lincoln. I would love for Darren Hughes the new Trevor Mallard to be able to get up in the Chamber and say what Labour members really think of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln had it right: if people try to tear down too many things they will be left with nothing. That is what this bill does; that is exactly the purpose of this bill. The purpose although being one of the Fabians’ mantras concerns the minimum wage. Although the bill sounds nice if it goes ahead it would mean that those who employ people and who pay their wages will not be interested in giving out pamphlets any more. They will not be interested so the downstream effect will see those whom they seek to help becoming unemployed. Those whom they seek to help will not have the pamphlets to deliver any more. Whether those people have been getting $20 or $30 they will not get that any more. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: What would Wilberforce say about that argument? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh Wilberforce. Yeah that is right. He is another one of Labour’s mates. Labour just loves to portray itself as the protector of the workers; the indigenous; women; and this that and the other but that does not wash. 
The downside of this bill is that employers will not pay what they cannot afford. That is what Mr Lincoln was on about. Employers should pay what they can afford and help out people who use the pamphlet drop as a top-up to their wages. This bill will not go through. I do not really know why we are here debating it because we know the numbers already so we might as well have a vote now and get rid of it. But it is good theatre. 
Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
: 
 I think that speech has to go down in history as one of the most disgraceful from a member of any party in this House. It has to be one of the most disgraceful speeches because it was completely opposed to any kind of minimum wage protection. That member’s speech was a justification for slavery. It was nothing more or less than a justification— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I take great offence at that member accusing me of being supportive of one of the meanest dastardly acts on earth. I am telling you that I am offended by that comment. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: This is a Chamber of robust debate. The member did not directly accuse that member of advocating or supporting slavery. The member said that if that line of logic was argued then it could be used as a justification for slavery. We cannot have anything but robust debate. The member might be offended by the connection to that term but the member did not say that the member directly supported slavery. The member can continue with that line of discussion. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I do not wish to go against your ruling but I am offended at the implication of what the member said. I think it is drawing a longbow to say there was no implication in what she said. She implied that what I said was a justification for slavery and therefore the implication is that I am in support of slavery. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: It is a convention of the House that when the Chair has ruled the matter is closed. The member is seeking to go over a matter that I have already ruled upon. The matter is closed. I gave some forbearance to the member to make a few other comments because I know the member is feeling strongly about the comments made but I have ruled on the matter. The matter is closed. 
Could I just reiterate to the member that this is a difficult balance to achieve. The first thing the Speaker does after the swearing-in of members of Parliament and after the Speaker is elected is go to the Governor-General to get free speech. Free speech gives members the ability to say what they think and feel and it is to be jealously guarded. On the one hand it is free speech and on the other hand one has to protect the rights of members. If the member had said directly that that member by name supports slavery etc. I would have agreed immediately with the member if the member had said that was not the case. But the member on her feet said that the arguments advanced by the member could justify as I recall the support of slavery. That is a point that the member is entitled to make and to draw a connection. That does not necessarily mean the member supports slavery directly. That is a fine line I accept. That is my ruling and I invite the member to continue with her speech mindful of the issue that has been raised by the Hon Tau Henare. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This is a different point of order. Can I get a point of clarification from you? If the implication or the accusation was that it could be taken that my speech was in support of Nazism would that be the same as covered in your previous ruling? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Could I firstly say to the member there is no such thing in the Standing Orders as a point of clarification. That does not exist. The member can scour the Standing Orders as long as he likes but I have not seen it yet. But it was a good try. Firstly there is no such thing as a point of clarification. 
Secondly the Chair does not have to rule on hypothetical things in the future. That is not the Chair’s job; it is about what was said at the time. I have discussed the matter and given my opinion. Rightly or wrongly it is my view that although the member felt aggrieved about the comments they still fell within the ambit of free speech. When the member continues with her speech I advise her to be sensitive about this issue. 
Hon MARYAN STREET 
: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I do quite freely say that I am sorry if the member has taken offence in that way. However— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Although I cannot point to any particular ruling I am pretty sure that a member cannot refer to a ruling that the Chair has just given. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The honourable member is correct. Normally if offence is taken the member is expected to withdraw and apologise. I did not require the member to withdraw and apologise but I felt that the member was acknowledging that you had felt upset about the comments and was apologising directly to you even though she was not required to by the Chair. I thought the member was winning his point twice without having to win it. 
Hon MARYAN STREET 
: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me proceed with the argument in that case. I heard the previous speaker say essentially that employers should be able to pay what they can afford. I hope that is a correct representation of what the previous speaker said. To say that employers must be able to pay simply what they can afford took me back to speeches that were made in defence of slavery. Speeches were made—and could be repeated today—that said employers cannot be compelled to pay wages that they cannot afford and any institution of a minimum wage and any increase of any instituted minimum wage would offend against that. 
The problem with that argument is simply that employers are not inclined by and large to be open with what they are able to afford. Employers have typically in my experience in industrial relations held very close to themselves the amount that they are able to afford in any negotiations in order not to be outdone in negotiations by a union. 
If the previous speaker’s argument is to be followed through it could be that the owner of a cotton plantation in some former time could have said: “I could not afford to pay a minimum wage and therefore should not be obligated by legislation to do so.” The point remains. The fact also that the previous speaker chose to use Sir William Wilberforce in a way that was meant to be derogatory I think reflects first of all on his lack of understanding of history and secondly on the lack of compassion around the issue that Sir William Wilberforce is so famous for. To say that the only tenet that underpins the employment relationship should be what an employer can afford to pay negates centuries of progress. 
This bill before the Committee—and I commend Darien Fenton for bringing it to the House—is seeking to improve a situation that exists in New Zealand whereby over many years we have had a minimum wage and where under successive Labour Governments we have seen improvements to that and very recently for quite probably the first time in history we have seen a small increase by a National-led Government. However what we have here is a loophole that this bill is looking to address. Vulnerable workers particularly vulnerable workers who are contracted will not be entitled even to the Government’s miserable increase to the minimum wage that we saw enacted recently. That situation cannot be left to lie where it is. This bill seeks to amend that loophole. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 The Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill was put up by Labour members in the last throes of their Government and was never actually taken on board as a Government bill. It is amazing that they come into the Chamber at this moment just in time to tell us that we should vote for the bill and that to not vote for it would be unconscionable to workers and not take into account the people who are out there working hard—all those great anti-Tory lines that the Labour Party uses. Yet what did they do when they were in power when they had the chance and when they were sitting on the Government side of the Chamber? They did not support this bill. They did not support this bill because even they knew it was bad law even they knew it was unworkable and even they knew that their colleagues at the time—New Zealand First—would not have voted for it. 
That is the problem with Labour members. If they are so high and mighty and come into this Chamber to say this bill is the best thing since sliced bread why did they not support it 9 months ago? They did not want to support it 9 months ago because they knew it would not work. So this bill is destined for only one position in this Chamber: it is destined for failure. It did not pass the Labour test when it was put up by Labour members so it will certainly not pass the test of this Committee at this time. 
Why does it not pass the test? It is because even the Labour Party in its heart of hearts knows that we cannot make employees and independent contractors the same. There is a point of difference. The reason we have the ability to independently contract services is that contracting represents different kinds of work in many cases. It often represents people being in business for themselves. When people are in business for themselves which is something Labour members would not have much idea of they actually have to make some sacrifices. They have to go out there and do things that would not fall under the rules and regulations of an employment agreement in order to get the business going. How many plumbers builders and electricians charge their clients on an hourly basis by the book? I bet members that they do not and they certainly will not do that in this current environment because they want to keep their jobs they want to keep their work and they want to make sure they give a fair deal for what they do. That is the business those people are in; it is not the business of 120 people in this Chamber sitting behind desks and chairs telling people how to run their lives. That is what people do not want and that is why they voted against Labour at the last election. That is why even the Labour members would not put up the bill. They knew it would never work. 
Look at this bill now. Labour members come in here and expect us to vote for it and then they put in amendments about increasing the minimum wage just to try to play for it. Well when National came into power we increased the minimum wage off our own bat; Labour did not have to tell us how to do it. The Labour Government never made a statutory increase in the minimum wage as Labour members are proposing now. Over 9 long years when the economy could actually pay for things they would not do that but in tighter economic conditions they expect us to do it. It does not make any sense. 
The relationship between this bill and the reality of commerce and of individuals’ ability to determine their own futures is non-existent. This bill does not relate to what it is like in the real world. In the real world people contract to provide services; in those contracts for services their position is to provide services and somebody pays them to do so. That is how it works; that is how life goes. People go out and provide a service for money. If we take away the ability of people to contract then we are taking away one of the fundamental rights of our economy we are taking away one of the fundamental rights of our people and the member proposing this bill will be taking away one of the fundamental human rights. It is a fundamental human right for people to better themselves to have a choice about how they live their lives to make a choice about how they conduct their businesses and to make a choice about how they provide their services. It is important that we in this Parliament enable people to make that choice and deliver those services in the appropriate manner. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 4 in the name of Darien Fenton to Part 1 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Part 1 not agreed to. 
Part 2 Amendments to principal Act 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: This debate includes the schedules. 
ALLAN PEACHEY (National—Tamaki) 
: 
 I appreciate the chance to take a call to speak to Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. If my history is as good as that of my colleague Mr Henare the year 1983 is of considerable significance. 
Clause 5(1) states: “After the commencement of this section the principal Act is called the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Act 1983”. If my recollection is correct in 1983 a National Government was in office. From 1983 through till today Labour has had 15 years in office. It has had two terms and every opportunity to have this sort of legislation sponsored by the Government. But no we find ourselves in a new Parliament with a Government that is facing some of the most severe financial and economic circumstances that this country has faced—not since 1983 but for 70 years—and we are still debating a member’s bill long after the electorate has spoken. I invite the member in the chair to consider that for a few moments and to consider whether it is her wish actually to proceed. We must be very clear about this. 
Some of the debate this afternoon has really troubled me as it did the last time we debated this bill a couple of weeks ago. To suggest that National is not committed to a minimum wage is wrong and bringing up that argument brings no credit to members on the other side of the Chamber. It is just as wrong to claim that National does not have a commitment to minimum protections for lower-paid workers. That sort of argument does no credit at all to the Labour Party for two very simple reasons: firstly 1983 was the year when the National Government brought about minimum wage legislation; and secondly—and of course the Labour Party has great difficulty with this now—it is a National Government that has moved very quickly and decisively despite financial and economic pressures to increase the minimum wage. We have to ask the question: if it was so simple and straightforward for a newly elected Government despite all the problems it inherited to do that why could not a Government that had been in office for 9 long years have acted as decisively? 
The other point of reference I make is to new section 4A “Prescription of minimum remuneration” inserted by clause 7. I want to draw the Committee’s attention to the words “Prescription” “prescribing” and “prescribed” because they occur no fewer than five times in the space of only three subsections. In fact if we look at subsection (3) in new section 4 we see that “prescribed” occurs three times in three and a half lines. I suggest with all courtesy and humility to the member that a visit to  
Roget’s Thesaurus 
 might have given a few more alternative words to use. But I then remind myself that the Opposition is basically socialist. The term “Fabian” used in a description by my colleague was very well-used. The words “prescribed” “prescription” and “prescribing” are so much part of the socialist lexicon that that is why this bill must fail. 
DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
: 
 First of all I thank members for their contributions bizarre as some have been. I think it has been an interesting debate that is worth pursuing because it is one way of getting the National Government’s views on the record. We have certainly achieved that if nothing else. 
We have heard from National members that they think it is OK for some workers in New Zealand to be paid less than $12.50 an hour. This is very much “old National”. If Mr Peachey knew his history then he would know that in 1983 the Minimum Wage Act was completely unnecessary because in those days we had national awards that set minimum wages and conditions penal rates holidays and other things for workers. It was not until National became the Government in 1990 and did away with all those things that the minimum wage became important. Mr Peachey should learn his history before he gets up and spouts about it. 
Allan Peachey 
: I’ll read the book tonight. 
DARIEN FENTON 
: I thank Mr Peachey. I think it would be good if he did. 
In this Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill we are talking about a changing workforce. The previous Labour Government may not have passed this legislation 9 years ago; we may not have done it 15 years ago. That is because we have seen a change in the nature of the workforce whereby more and more people are being moved out of the employment relationship and into non-standard work which includes independent contracting and dependent contracting. 
I want to make it clear that this bill would not apply to Graham Scott the independent contractor employed by Bill English. He has been given permission to be paid $2000 a day. Based on an 8-hour day that is $250 an hour. The Labour Party is not asking for $250 an hour; we are asking for a $15 minimum wage over the next 2 years. All that this bill does is to guarantee every worker in the country who is over the age of 16 years at least $12.50 an hour which will move up to $13 an hour and then up to $15 an hour in 2011. I do not understand what is wrong with that. 
I will give some examples and I would like the National members in their contributions to tell me what they would do in such cases. The first example is about a pizza delivery man who is employed as a contract driver. He is assigned to work 10 hours straight with his payment based on the number of pizzas that he delivers. That ends up working out at $3.50 an hour. How do we fix that problem? 
Lianne Dalziel gave a very very good contribution in terms of home-care workers on 24-hour shifts. These people are looking after our older relatives in the community. One home-care worker was looking after a man with Alzheimer’s disease. She signed a contract with an agency stating that she was an independent contractor and was self-employed. She had to pay her own accident compensation levies her own tax and for her own travel. She was paid by the hour for the time she spent at the residence of the person she was caring for. 
I have seen hotel workers who are employed on a contract basis and are paid based on the number of rooms they clean. They have to try to get 15 16 or up to 20 rooms done to earn anything like the minimum wage. That is not right. Those are the sorts of issues that this bill is trying to fix. I will perhaps address some of the mechanisms a little bit later in the debate. 
I came across some cleaners who answered a Be Your Own Boss advertisement. It is out there—Be Your Own Boss. The cleaners bought hundreds of dollars’ worth of supplies to set up their own cleaning businesses. After working long hours they found that their weekly earnings came to less than $6 an hour. They are independent contractors they are vulnerable contractors and they are listed in the proposed new schedule 2 in my Supplementary Order Paper 4 amending this bill. 
These people do not have bargaining power. They are not the Graham Scotts of the world who have the ability to go and negotiate large sums of money for themselves. These people are trying to earn a living in a recession when times are difficult. As I said at the beginning this bill is simply about one thing which is that in this country no one should be paid less than the minimum wage and people definitely should not be paid less than the minimum wage because of the nature of their employment. 
I note too that New Zealand is falling behind on this issue. Other jurisdictions are tackling this issue and we looked at this in the select committee. Austria Australia France Norway Germany Canada and the UK are just some of the countries that have protections or specific policies. They range from recognising economically dependent workers by extending employment rights to recognising a category of workers who are entitled to a minimum wage such as in the UK. Those countries are not trying to make them into employees; they are simply paying them a fair wage. 
In this area there is both a higher end and a lower end. We have heard about the higher end. This bill is not about the higher end and as I have said about paying the Graham Scotts of the world. It is about those workers who are struggling to make ends meet and who are suffering social and economic hardship as a result. I will leave it there for now. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) 
: 
 The quotation of that great American President Abraham Lincoln by the Hon Tau Henare was inspirational. The discussion has been a very interesting one but without relitigating the response from the Opposition the reference to slavery following Mr Henare’s quotation of Abraham Lincoln was ironic in the extreme. It has been a fascinating debate on the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill but it will be ultimately defeated because it is not supported by the Government. It is not really supported by the Labour Opposition as Mr Bennett said. If it was it would have been introduced as part of the previous administration’s agenda. 
The question is not about whether National supports a minimum wage as the other side has suggested but where that level should be. That seems to be a question that Labour is asking itself and it seems to be all over the place on this issue. The member for Hutt South and Labour’s shadow Minister of Labour Mr Mallard said last October that he could not commit to large increases in the minimum wage due to the economic conditions—conditions that have got worse since then. The Leader of the Opposition Phil Goff demanded a rise in the minimum wage to $13 yet the Labour Party’s election manifesto promised an increase to $12.65. So I am not quite sure where exactly Labour members are on their own policy. 
The most interesting and confusing thing about this bill is that in the estimation of all but the most extreme left-leaning economic commentators this bill if passed would actually be very bad for the people it purports to help. It will be bad for the young it will be bad for those who are in their autumn years who lose their jobs it will be bad for the less than fully able it will be bad for ethnic minorities and it will be particularly bad for those people who are on income support and are looking to augment their incomes. We know—and Jacinda Ardern said as much in question time today—that the problem of youth unemployment is serious with 10300 extra people unemployed in March. We now have one in five 15 to 19-year-olds looking for employment. So what will we do? People who have employed staff—and sadly there are precious few on the other side of the House with that sort of experience otherwise they might have a little more empathy with the issues—know that young people lack experience. They lack the work habits and the level of productivity that employers look for but they are employed anyway because employers know that eventually they will come up to speed and be productive members of the workforce. Employers will often put the needs of their employees first as the employment legislation in this country requires them to but they are not social workers. So they will not employ the inexperienced the young or people who need to be given a chance when the choice is between doing that or paying exactly the same wage to people with the experience the productivity levels and the work habits. 
The bill might be well meaning but it is ideologically flawed. It is bad for the very people that the member in the chair Darien Fenton is trying to help. It would also further reduce productivity at a time when this country badly needs a lift. It is bad for the hard-working and the hard-hit small businesses that are already telling the Government to take it easy because these times are tough compliance issues are drowning them in paperwork and accident compensation levies are going up. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Yep and this Government’s responding. It’s cutting everything. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE 
: This Government is responding by reducing the degree of burden on hard-working employers many of whom are saying that members on that side of the House have burdened them with issues for 9 years and red tape has gagged them for so long. This bill is just another example of those burdens and it is a bill that Labour members know deep down they do not support but it is a really good opportunity for them to stand up and say that they support workers. Well this bill does not support workers because if Labour members really believed in it they would have passed it themselves. 
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour) 
: 
 It is a pleasure to take a call on the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. I particularly want to congratulate my very good friend Darien Fenton on bringing this bill to the House. I just want to say that the speech I have just heard was one of the worst speeches—apart from Tau Henare’s speech earlier—that I have heard in this House. The previous speaker Michael Woodhouse is someone whom the National Party will put their arms around saying “You are exactly the sort of new member we want. You are exactly the sort of person we want in our party.” 
I will talk about the arguments put up by the Government. We have had some members saying that we are somehow imposing the minimum wage on highly paid independent contractors. What nonsense! Then we had speakers like the previous speaker who say Labour should have done this before. I will spend some time talking about why this bill is so necessary now. When Labour came into Government the minimum wage was just over $7 an hour. The youth rates were about 3 or 4 bucks an hour. So employers did not need to rort the system with independent contractors. The levels were so low under the previous National Government that they worked. But when Labour came in it brought in the Employment Relations Act. It brought in time and a half on public holidays. It brought in 4 weeks’ annual leave. It enhanced rights for workers. They were very good things. I say in this House that unscrupulous employers then wondered how they could avoid paying the exorbitant rate of $12.50 an hour to a worker who puts in a few hours of work a day. That was just too high. It had been really great under the previous National Government—it had been only 7 bucks an hour. It went up only a few cents in 9 years. Then with a Labour Government that raised the rate to $12 it was just too hard. My goodness along with the Greens’ Sue Bradford’s bill and Labour’s full support for that that was the rate for young people. It was far too high so those employers decided to employ more independent contractors because they have no rights. That really worked for those employers. 
I think Mr Woodhouse is my height. That is what we have in common. We are around the same height. When we are standing talking in the House members cannot see so much of us. And the member has a big voice and that is great but what he is saying is absolutely offensive. 
There is a real need for this bill because the only time that it is really used that it needs to be brought into effect so that people are paid the minimum rate is nine times out of 10 where there is a rort being used so that it is depriving workers of a living wage. I think it is absolutely abhorrent in this day and age in a country like New Zealand which has many many things to be proud of to see workers going out and doing an honest day’s work and at the end of the day coming home and when you knock it down—to take the pizza-selling example that Darien Fenton used—maybe bringing home 3 or 4 bucks an hour. 
The members on the other side argue that we would impose a low rate on highly paid contractors—which is just ludicrous—or that there is no reason for the bill. The advocates for the 90-day trial period legislation even argue that the bill would somehow disadvantage disabled people or young people in finding employment. What a patronising appalling thing to say that people who are young or who have a disability should be employed on 3 or 4 bucks an hour because it gives them the opportunity to work! I think that is an insult to them. If we look at the term “independent contractors” we see that some can earn more in an hour than the weekly minimum wage. Congratulations to them. Those people do not need the assistance of this bill but people who are vulnerable exploited or are not in a position to have bargaining power do need this. It is a small price to pay. 
Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT) 
: 
 I was not going to speak in this debate but when I listened to the crocodile tears coming from the Labour Party I thought that maybe I should say a word or two. I probably come at this from a different point of view to that of a lot of National members and I certainly have different points of view to the ones expressed by some Labour members. Their inability to understand even some basic economics is hard for me to understand or believe. 
Assertions have been made that the minimum wage level is too low that it is not rising fast enough and that it should apply to some people who are not covered. In my view this is unfortunate given that in the long run the effect of minimum wage legislation such as this is paradoxically not to raise the take-home pay of workers or contractors who have low skill levels but in many cases to make it almost impossible for them to find jobs. That is what this legislation will do. The really low-skilled workers will be locked out of the workforce and the honourable member from the National Party who preceded me Michael Woodhouse made that point pretty well. 
The tragedy of all this is that if there is a choice of employment low-productivity workers can usually raise their skill levels and their productivity with job training to a level where they will get an increase in income to match that increase in productivity. With minimum wage legislation they are effectively barred from employment in the first place and that is what we see for so many people. Given that many of our young people are effectively barred from job training in this way it is little wonder that we have the problem of youth unemployment. Because of that it surprises me that the Maori Party would vote in favour of this legislation. I am surprised because it is often Maori who are the most disadvantaged in this way. 
The major reason for this minimum wage legislation that we have heard in this debate is that there is a fear that in its absence employers would be completely free to dictate the levels of wages paid. We have just heard that argument from the previous speaker Lynne Pillay. However we must accept the reality of the situation. Employers and others will pay a worker relative only to his or her level of productivity. Wage levels that are below workers’ productivity will be pushed up so if a worker has a productivity level of $30 an hour and he or she is on $15 an hour then the market will ensure that those wages get pushed up. Wage levels that are higher than the level of productivity will be pushed down by employers who are I agree self-serving. If workers have a productivity level of $10 an hour and they are on $20 an hour their wages will be pushed down over time. 
Members can take the example of an employee who creates value of $15 per hour and is paid $10 an hour. The employer is making an extra profit of $5 per hour out of that employee as he or she toils away hour by hour. This sounds bad for the worker but it is a situation that rarely exists in the real world. Even if it did exist it would not last for long. That is the point. The market would look after it. That situation would not last long because another employer out there would like to make a profit from that worker. So the employer would pinch the worker who is being underpaid and take that person into his or her own employment. The passing of a law such as this says that if a firm hires a worker it must pay let us say $13 an hour even if that worker’s productivity is only $10 an hour. Will those people now find a job? The answer is that some might but most will not. 
RAHUI KATENE (Maori Party—Te Tai Tonga) 
: 
 I want to let it be known that the Maori Party feels so strongly about the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill that we are not only using our own votes we are co-opting members from outside of the House to vote with us. We are very clear about the need to do all we can to support whanau ora and to ensure that all whanau have the opportunity to set and achieve their ambitions in education employment health housing and so on. We are very pleased to take a call to support this bill as a component of building whanau ora in Aotearoa. It gives legal muscle to the principle of a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work. 
There has been a considerable amount of debate on the bill so far with lots of point-scoring backward and forwards but the actual matter at hand is very simple: all workers should have the right to minimum wage protection. In the current economic situation of decreasing job security and increasing living costs it seems more important than ever that all workers be guaranteed at least a minimum wage and all whanau be guaranteed a level of income that allows them the chance for whanau ora. The economic cards seem stacked against whanau at the present time. The price of petrol has increased by 39 percent in the last 5 years the price of food has increased by 22 percent in the last 5 years and there are 33700 more people out of work than this time last year 11200 of whom are Maori. In fact the unemployment rate for Maori has rocketed up from 8.9 percent to 12.6 percent in the last 12 months. 
Wages continue to be low. The median weekly income for Maori is $500 per week which is the average wage while the median wage for Pakeha is $575 per week. We remain in a situation where almost half of New Zealand taxpayers earn under $25000 per annum. This translates into too many whanau living in significant hardship including according to the  
Social Report 2008 
 16 percent of the children in New Zealand. That is the context that I urge members to consider in this debate. We also know—and this is backed up by local and international research—that the ability to earn a decent wage is important in order to combat not only the reality of poverty but also the social and cultural disconnectedness that economic violence brings in its wake. 
With job security plummeting the need to establish an official poverty line and set a date for its elimination is more critical than ever. Changes in the minimum wage over the last 10 years—from $7.55 in 1999 to $12.50 in 2009—have been hugely important in offsetting inflation rates over that period. Because all whanau are subject to inflation all workers and their whanau need the protection of minimum pay rates. Tena tatou. 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Mangere) 
: 
 I thank the member of the Maori Party Rahui Katene who spoke in support of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the work and effort that my colleague Darien Fenton has put into the bill. It is an important topic as many communities throughout this country of ours and particularly my neighbourhood are seeing the effects and impact of the recession. The new schedule 2 of the Minimum Wage Amendment Act on Supplementary Order Paper 4 lists a range of jobs that people are doing out of desperation at this point in time.  
I have difficulty listening to some members from the other side of the Chamber because they are on one track in terms of the arguments they are presenting. One member asked why the bill had not been introduced by the previous Labour Government. I tell the member that it was introduced under the Labour Government in 2006. People need to know that that Labour Government was a minority Government. At the end of the discussion on that bill it was unable to pass through the House because of objection from not only the National Party but also other members who are no longer in this House. 
Nathan Guy 
: New Zealand First? 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO 
: Yes that is right. 
Allan Peachey 
: Say it! New Zealand First—your coalition partner. 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO 
: I heard Mr Peachey a wonderful member who believes that he should have been the Minister of Education. I also believe that he should have been. He said that the electorate has spoken. I suspect that comment has to do with the feeling National members have that now that they have won the election they can do anything they want. I ask members of the public who are listening whether this is the kind of Government they expected. In the 5 months that those members have been in Government—they went on holiday for the other month—they have shown some arrogance. They have shown that they are prepared to push things through without allowing people to have their say. 
I think that if National members looked into their heart of hearts they would recognise that this issue is about the protection of vulnerable workers vulnerable people during a vulnerable period of our history. The International Labour Organization has a saying it has promoted for years that poverty anywhere threatens wealth everywhere. I will repeat it just in case members on the other side of the Chamber could not hear me: poverty anywhere threatens wealth everywhere. Those members are unable to see the big picture. This is not about shedding crocodile tears; this is about being genuinely and sincerely concerned about the state of affairs that many of our communities are experiencing. 
In Mangere as of March 1098 people were unemployed of which 381 were between the ages of 18 and 24. A bigger group of 717 were between the ages of 25 and 64. If those workers were in a contractual relationship for services—as listed in new schedule 2—then they would be in a vulnerable position in negotiating a fair wage because they do not have this minimum protection. It might be OK for young people to say to their employer that they will deliver the leaflets or pamphlets for $25 a month; they can say “Stuff you!” to the employer and do something else because they will be looked after by their parents. But elderly folks with children to look after and a mortgage have some concerns. We should remember the 6300 local government staff in the Auckland region who are already threatened with redundancy and do not know what their future is. This is why this bill is quite important. It provides some basic protection for workers who through no fault of their own—maybe out of desperation because of these difficult times—need some protection in order to get a fair deal for the work they do. 
I say to members on the other side of the Chamber that there are questions they need to answer. Firstly is there a need to protect vulnerable workers? Members on this side say yes. Secondly do New Zealanders of all heritages want jobs at this time? The answer is yes. Thirdly do New Zealand workers in these sorts of job situations want a fair wage? Again the answer is yes. Unless members on the other side say no to those questions then I have to question their arrogance in continuing to say that this bill is a bad bill. It is a good bill. It provides protection for people who need protection in these difficult times. 
People will be watching the Government tomorrow—Budget day—to see whether it is prepared to provide jobs with incomes that can sustain workers and their families. I say let us wait and see. Our expectation of this Government is that it will not deliver on that—going by the answers it delivered to questions asked earlier today in respect of promises that it has potentially broken. It is disgusting. If I were a National member I would consider quitting the National Party now. I see my friend Mr Bakshi on the other side; he should quit the National Party now. Tau Henare who should have been the Minister of Maori Affairs should quit the National Party and join the Maori Party in order to give some support to the people who want protection in this day and age. Thank you. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 Let us put a few more things straight for young Darren Hughes. Sue Bradford was mentioned in the debate today. I will go on the record to say that she out of most people in this House has the record of working at the coalface with unemployed people. I have not seen any other Labour members working at the coalface with the unemployed for as many years as Sue Bradford has been working there. 
This is all about having a choice. If someone was a worker if someone was a young person or if someone did not have many skills but wanted to get on the ladder and if the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill was to go through then that person would have a choice. Such people would have a choice of unemployment or a job; the Labour Party wants to guarantee young people a choice. But those young people could say “Oh bugger it. I think I will just stay on the unemployment benefit.” because this bill does not do anything for their dignity. It does not do anything to help them up; it does not do anything to raise their expectations and to get on that first rung of the ladder. 
I add another point. We are not talking about people who post pamphlets for a living; we are talking about most people who post pamphlets as a top-up to what they earn whether on the benefit through a part-time job or what have you. It is not an argument between socialism and the great capitalists. It is not an argument between nouveau communists including some people on that side of the Chamber and maybe the nouveau capitalists on this side. It is about the real world versus fantasy. It is about the real-world lives of so many young people and of a few of the elderly. I am telling members now that if this Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill goes through those people will not have the option because so many employers out there will not be able to afford it. 
There was an accusation from Maryan Street that I was a supporter of slavery. I am an indigenous person who is accused of being supportive of slavery; that is what the implication was. But this bill is not for every worker. This is all about the independent contractor. When we talk about history I ask why the Labour Party always likes to put its own paint job on history. It is because that party cannot face up to the fact that under Lange under Palmer under Moore and under Clark there was no such thing as a minimum wage for independent contractors. There was not a whisper or a murmur about the minimum wage for independent contractors. 
So why do those members now come snivelling in front of this Committee thinking they are the defenders of workers’ rights? They are here only to defend their own form of capitalism. It is called the bourgeoisie the intelligentsia—that is whom Labour represents. Labour wants to protect its own rung on the ladder. The bill is not about workers’ rights at all; it is about Labour’s rights. It is about making victims of every little person in society. I tell members now that there are individuals out there who want to get ahead and they will get ahead under this Government. They will never get ahead under that outdated outmoded philosophy that smacks of Joseph Stalin and his “commo” mates. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 It has been an entertaining evening of political philosophy from the member who has just resumed his seat Tau Henare. We had some linguistic lessons from Mr Peachey but the political philosophy lessons from Mr Henare were remarkable—remarkable in their ignorance and remarkable in their ability to draw in all kinds of irrelevant material when there is a very simple question around Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. Do we think New Zealanders deserve a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work? Members on the other side of the Chamber might like to answer that very simple question. Do New Zealanders deserve a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work? This bill aims to achieve just that. 
We have had all kinds of comments from across the Chamber in this debate about people’s choice. Dr Graham Scott is a contractor and has a choice. He can charge the National Government $2000 a day for Budget purchase advice. He charges $2000 a day. That is outrageous. He does not need the protection of this kind of bill; the people whom this bill sets out to protect are vulnerable workers who are not getting the minimum wage and who need some kind of statutory support. 
The new clause 7 introduced by Darien Fenton on Supplementary Order Paper 4 mentions prescription of minimum remuneration and the new schedule 2 lists who should get that remuneration. Let us look at some of those people. They work in building and construction services cleaning services courier services food catering services and fast-food delivery services. They are not people who earn $2000 a day. They are people who deserve the right to a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work. Under the current law that is not necessarily happening. I congratulate Darien Fenton on her proposed new clause 7 and on the parts of her Supplementary Order Paper that would increase the minimum wage over time. 
It is difficult for me to sit here and be lectured by Mr Henare on the minimum wage and on who increased it. In the 9 years of National Government in the 1990s it increased the minimum wage. How much do we think it increased the minimum wage by in 9 years? It increased it by 87c. Under Helen Clark’s Labour Government the minimum wage increased every single year. Every single year the minimum wage went up. Members on this side of the Chamber can stand proudly and say they support increasing the minimum wage. That is why I support the new clause from Darien Fenton. On the other side of the Chamber there has been no commitment to the minimum wage. 
If we listen to the speeches that have been given during this debate we see it is quite clear that the philosophical views of members on that side of the Chamber are against the minimum wage. I actually congratulate Sir Roger Douglas because at least he is honest enough to get up and say that he does not believe in the minimum wage and that he thinks it is bad for the economy. I totally disagree with him but on the other side of the Chamber crocodile tears are being shed. National members quite clearly do not believe in the minimum wage. They do not believe in setting this kind of fairness and benchmark. Instead we hear their claim that they have increased the minimum wage by 50c this time round. Under the previous National Government it increased by 87c in 9 years. That was in the 1990s when the wage gap between Australia and New Zealand increased as a result of the Employment Contracts Act and the kinds of initiatives the National Government thinks is right. The Government is not interested in providing the kinds of wages that allow people to live with dignity. We have seen that time and time again from National and we see it again from this Government. We know that it does not support increasing the minimum wage in the way this bill intends. 
Today is a very interesting day; it is the day before the Budget and the day before we see what this Government will prescribe. Does it care about jobs? Does it care about the minimum wage? No. Today in the general debate all we heard about was boy racers. It is an important issue for sure but on the day before the Budget we should be hearing from National about what it prescribes to keep people in work. I have just heard that another 70 jobs have gone at the Accident Compensation Corporation. The total number of jobs lost in the public sector is pushing over a thousand and it is this National Government that is getting rid of them. It does not care about keeping people in work; it is putting people out of work. It is not interested in increasing the minimum wage. 
ALLAN PEACHEY (National—Tamaki) 
: 
 I am grateful to have the opportunity to continue my contribution to the debate on Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. I note with interest that the previous speaker Grant Robertson did not seem to appreciate that he really needed to debate this part of the bill if the debate is to continue any longer. 
I acknowledge my colleague from Auckland Mr Sio who unlike so many of his colleagues attempted a reasoned and fair approach to the debate. By and large it has been a good debate with ideas flowing freely across the Committee which is how it should be. But Mr Sio finally hit the nail on the head. The difficulty Opposition members have had in debating Part 2 is that they actually cannot debate it. They are not prepared to confront the word “prescribed” which as I have already said in this debate occurs three times in three and a half lines five times in three clauses and again in proposed new section 6A. The difficulty that Labour has is that until Mr Sio spoke it did not adequately address the question of why if this bill and these clauses in Part 2 are so important to Labour it did not address them when it was in Government. 
Chris Hipkins 
: So much other good legislation. 
ALLAN PEACHEY 
: I have long wondered what Mr Hipkins’ role is in the Labour Party. Now I realise he is there to make Mr Hughes look old. That is his sole function and it is good that they sit together in this Chamber. 
I will come back to my point. The reason Labour chose not to continue to pursue this bill when in Government was finally revealed. If members listen to what Labour members say they have to draw the conclusion that Labour let down their heartland supporters—those workers who through generations of family come good or bad voted Labour. Why did Labour do that? It did so because it chose instead to give the baubles of office to Winston Peters. That in effect is Labour’s explanation for why it did not die in a ditch and make the ultimate sacrifice for people who for generations and through families voted for Labour. I would think that the lower-paid workers in this country will be reflecting on that tonight and reflecting that the previous Labour Government would rather have given Winston Peters somebody to open the door of his chauffeur-driven car than have kept faith with its core supporters. It will not be lost on those people that it was the National Government that acted so quickly and so decisively to boost the minimum wage. That was even after the previous Government’s Minister of Labour Mr Mallard said in this Chamber that he did not have enough money to increase the minimum wage. Is it not interesting how keen those members are to spend other people’s money and to structure clauses in Part 2 that are clearly unworkable. It is important that this bill be defeated and I suggest to this Committee that it defeat it now. 
Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
: 
 I have a couple of points relating to the earlier contribution by the member Ross Robertson who has recently resumed his seat—not the last contribution because it was almost unintelligible. The speech that the member made earlier referred to the fact that the 1983 Minimum Wage Act was brought in by a National Government under Prime Minister Muldoon. It is always interesting to reflect on how selective people are about the history that they choose to repeat. 
There are two points I want to make about that statement in particular. The 1983 Minimum Wage Act does exactly what my colleague Darien Fenton outlined earlier. It was put into the context of a different industrial relations regime from the one we have now. In fact it quite specifically refers to awards collective agreements determinations or contracts of service and it talks about structures in industrial relations that existed in the 1980s but do not exist now. The other point to make is about the context of that Act. I wonder whether my colleagues can remember something else that was happening in 1983—in fact it went on from 1982 to 1984. Mr Peachey may have conveniently forgotten it. It was the wage and price freeze that Sir Robert Muldoon brought down in the middle of 1982. So to bring in a Minimum Wage Act in 1983 was almost meaningless because there was no provision for any movement during that period. It was not until a Labour Government was returned in 1984 that we saw any wage movement as that freeze first had to be taken off. Sir Roger Douglas will remember those days I am sure. 
However the other point is that the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill does not seek to increase the minimum wage. It simply asks for the minimum wage to be applied to contracted workers who are not currently receiving it or who can through various means not be paid the minimum wage. That simply corrects an anomaly that has emerged over time. There should not be any demur from members opposite about the need to ensure that the minimum wage is exactly that across all sectors of the economy because it ends up being the final safety net for wage earners around the country in whatever industry or occupation they happen to be. 
An additional point is that we did hear from Mr Woodhouse some of the same old arguments we always hear when we come to discussions about the minimum wage which are that any increase to the minimum wage equates to a loss of jobs and that we are taking jobs away from the most vulnerable workers instead of trying to support them. That is nonsense. Historically it has been proven to be nonsense but it is the sort of nonsense that is trotted out in times of tight labour markets and economic recession. It is constantly trotted out but we never hear it being argued in times of upward cycles of economic good fortune. The fact that this Parliament ought to be standing here collectively and jointly to support the most vulnerable workers by ensuring that there is a minimum wage below which they cannot fall is something that should be held in common by members of all parties in this Chamber. I welcome the comments of the Maori Party in that respect because they know as well as anybody does what it means for someone to be a vulnerable worker. 
This bill simply seeks to apply a minimum wage provision across contracted workers who have emerged through various kinds of industrial relations devices to fall below the statutory minimum wage. Thank you Mr Chairman. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 After listening to Allan Peachey I was reflecting on his role in the Chamber as he has been reflecting on my role. I have decided that perhaps his role is to make Chris Auchinvole look dynamic and articulate. I cannot think of anything else that he contributes to this Chamber. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: You will be in detention. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: I will be in detention. This bill the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill frankly is a pre-Budget test for the Government. Do Government members really care about the people on the lowest incomes at the bottom of the heap who are not earning even the minimum wage ahead of the Budget in a very tough economic climate or do they not? That is fundamentally what their vote on this bill will determine. Are they interested in the people at the bottom of the heap or are they not? We have not seen any evidence from Government members since they were elected in November that they are interested in the people who are earning the lowest incomes and who are the most vulnerable. The very first thing those members did when they came into Government was to take away those people’s tax cuts and give them to the people at the highest end of the income spectrum. 
But Government members have done one thing when it comes to the minimum wage and I will give them credit for that. Just recently they increased the minimum wage very mildly minimally by $3.72 a week. That is not a heck of a lot when we consider the current economic climate. This Government today and tomorrow going into the Budget has an opportunity to signal to vulnerable workers people who are earning modest incomes whether it cares about them. 
Allan Peachey 
: We’re on Part 2. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: I will speak to Part 2. The very first part of Part 2 inserts the word “remuneration” after “minimum wage”. This bill is about dealing with overall remuneration not just the minimum wage as it stands now and extends it to contractors. It says that people who are currently working on a contract for services should be entitled to a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work which they are not getting at the moment in many many instances. During the first part of the discussion on the bill I checked through some of those contracts for service. The pizza delivery boys are not getting a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work. I used a pizza delivery firm the other day and I had cause to think about the fact that the delivery boy— 
David Garrett 
: Did you give him a tip? 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: I did. I gave him a very generous tip. It was more than the minimum wage. So there we go. It was a terrible miserable rainy night and I decided that the pizza delivery boy had earned it so I gave him a big tip. Those workers probably are not earning the minimum wage. Under the current law they do not have to be paid the minimum wage nor do the people who deliver the newspapers that clutter up our letterboxes whether or not we like those newspapers nor do the cleaners. There are an increasing number of cleaners working under a contract for services. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: Perhaps if you offered pizza during your clinics more people would turn up. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: That is right. Has the member been reading Twitter? It is good to see that the Government backbenchers are well occupied. Areas of work where contracts for services are used also include courier services. We know that a number of people in courier businesses are struggling at the moment for a variety of reasons. Building and construction services are also included. To return to a point that I have already raised why should one of two workers on a building construction site earn less than the other? One earns more than the other simply because one is an employee and one is a contractor. One does not earn the minimum wage and one does. How is that equitable? The amendments proposed by my colleague Darien Fenton help to address that issue. 
I want to talk also about Supplementary Order Paper 4 which Darien Fenton has put forward regarding a commitment to increasing the minimum wage—moving it up to $13 an hour effective from 1 July this year to $14 an hour from 1 July 2010 and to $15 an hour from 1 July 2011. For somebody who is sitting in this Chamber $15 an hour probably does not seem like a heck of a lot. I think just about everybody who works in this building would earn more than $15 an hour except for maybe the cleaners if they are contractors. It is not a heck of a lot of money. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Prior to the dinner break I was talking about the addition of the word “remuneration” to the title of the bill. In studying the definition of remuneration I draw members’ attention to in particular Supplementary Order Paper 4 which has a more comprehensive definition than the original bill does and I think it adds quite a lot of value. It is important to note that the intention of this bill is to extend the application of the minimum wage and minimum income beyond those who earn a wage to include contractors as well. Adding the word “remuneration” to the title does that because it is clear that the dictionary definition of the word “wage” does not adequately capture it. By adding the word “remuneration” to the title we more adequately capture the spirit of what the bill is trying to achieve. 
National members have talked a lot about compliance costs and a lot of their objection to the bill appears to be on that basis. It is probably fair for us to assess whether that is a valid concern to have so I looked at Supplementary Order Paper 4 to find out what sorts of compliance costs this legislation would add to businesses. Under new clause 8A inserted by Supplementary Order Paper 4 the main compliance cost would be the requirement for employers to keep records. What sorts of records would they be required to keep? They would be required to keep the name of the specified person. I cannot see how that would add any additional compliance cost to employers at all. I would be very surprised to learn of an employer or of someone contracting a person who did not record the person’s name. So that would not add any compliance cost. An employer would need to record the person’s postal address. Presumably if any form of remuneration was involved the employer would have the person’s postal address so there would be no additional compliance cost. Employers would need to record the kind of service that the specified person is engaged to provide. I would be flabbergasted to learn that any employer who provided that information incurred a compliance cost. I do not think that a single business in the country would engage a contractor without specifying the kind of service the contractor was to provide. So there would be no additional compliance cost there. 
Employers would need to record the hours during which the specified person provided the service. That would probably be something new for employers—they would need to record the hours—but I cannot see that it would be a huge compliance cost. I cannot see how that would add a compliance cost. They would need to record the remuneration paid to the specified person for the service and the method of calculation. Odds are that the person’s contract would record that kind of information anyway so really there would be no significant increase in compliance costs for a business. Compliance costs appear to be National members’ fundamental objection to this bill but we have gone through the bill and disproved it. There would be no huge increase in compliance costs. 
What the legislation comes down to is a fundamental philosophical commitment as to whether people should be entitled to a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work. We on this side of the Chamber say that they should and that it should not matter whether a person is a contractor or an employee. People should get a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work—that is the Labour Party position. The National Party position is not to support that—it is that contractors are on their own and that if they are earning only $2 an hour then that is their problem because it is a free market they have choice and they can go somewhere else. Well they do not really have choice at all. The choice is either to take the $2 an hour or to take nothing. We do not think that that is fair. We think that people who are contracted to provide a service should be paid at least the minimum wage. New section 5A inserted under new clause 7B in Supplementary Order Paper 4 provides for a comprehensive review of the minimum rate of remuneration after 3 years. That is a fair thing to do as well. Obviously costs go up and a variety of factors might impact on the minimum wage so it should be reviewed after a period of time. 
One other objection that National members may raise relates to people who might work overly long hours spin out jobs so they take longer and therefore increase the costs involved. Actually there is a protection for employers to stop that happening. I draw members’ attention to clause 11AC inserted by new clause 9A in Supplementary Order Paper 4 entitled “Specified person may not recover minimum remuneration for time that exceeds agreed reasonable time to provide service”. If it is clear that someone is simply spinning out a job in order to increase the amount of money he or she can be paid then the employer or business has recourse not to pay for that. The clause is an additional protection for the employer and removes another of the National Party’s possible objections to this bill. 
Really I cannot see that National members can have any other legitimate objection unless their objection is to the idea that people should be paid a minimum wage. They should be honest about that. Roger Douglas is very honest—he does not support having a minimum wage. He does not think there should be any specified minimum wage. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 It is a great privilege to take a call on Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. We have heard a lot this evening from Government members about choice and that is exactly what the amendment to add the word “remuneration” after the word “wage” in the title is about. So many people are unable to choose to take a waged job. The only thing available to them is a contract-rate job. Whether it is delivering pamphlets or undertaking home help there is a whole range of low-paid work that is offered under the guise of choice in a contract-type arrangement rather than as work that offers a paid wage and that has all the benefits of protection holidays and recourse if one’s employer treats one incorrectly or inappropriately. 
We get from the right the old chestnut of choice—such as the Work Choices arrangement that Australia so thoroughly rejected not long ago—and as we have talked about it comes down basically to a philosophical argument. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: If you like it so much leave! 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: I have no desire to go to Australia. The member can head off there if he wants to. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Stop talking about how wonderful it is. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: Actually I was not talking about how wonderful it is. I was talking about the appalling legislation under the guise of Work Choices that Australia had. I have no intention of heading to Australia. New Zealand’s Employment Relations Act is excellent legislation and long may it remain as it is without being watered down by this Government. Hopefully the Labor Government in Australia can steadily unwind the Work Choices legislation over there. I certainly would not head over there in a great hurry given the type of employment legislation there. 
Amy Adams 
: That’s a shame. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: Ms Adams probably thinks that is a shame. It must be a real pity to have to put up with having me on this side of the Chamber. 
Amy Adams 
: It is. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: I bet it is a real pain for National members to have a team such as Labour standing up against them every single day. It must get depressing. 
This bill is so necessary in order to give rights to those who are not able to choose a wage-bearing job and have to do contract work. Those people have so few rights. All the rights they would choose to have are taken away from them because they cannot get into non-contract work. This bill is absolutely necessary to provide a baseline of fairness to those people. They need some kind of fairness in their work situation and in their contracts. At the moment without legislation such as this there is a distinct lack of fairness. Fairness is what we need to see in jobs in this country. We need to see a Government that is committed to jobs and we need to see a Government that is committed to fairness in its employment relations legislation. 
The bill as a whole is about protecting workers in hard times. It is important that all workers even in an economic downturn like this one are afforded a fair working environment and have an opportunity to earn a fair living wage. We have so many people on low wages who are unable to make ends meet and that situation will get harder and harder in these economic times. 
The bill sets out a pathway for moving towards a $15 minimum wage. That $15 is not just an amount picked out of thin air— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Yes it is. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: It is not an amount that is picked out of thin air. If Mr Henare knew anything about the International Labour Organization he would know that that organisation sets a benchmark of two-thirds of the median wage for the minimum wage. In New Zealand that is a little more than $15 but $15 is a reasonable rate that this bill will set us on a pathway towards. It is about fairness. 
DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
: 
 I will address Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill and again thank members for their contributions to the debate. I think everybody has enjoyed this debate. It has made it very clear where National and Labour stand in their position on this issue and for those listening I think that that has been very useful. Again I acknowledge Roger Douglas. His position has not changed for years and years; there is nothing surprising there. I also acknowledge the Maori Party which along with the Greens has consistently supported the bill. Maori Party members understand what the problem is. 
We have had some great grand quotes tonight from Tau Henare so I thought I would join him by quoting from the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. New Zealand was one of the first countries to sign up for the declaration. I know that National members have problems with anything to do with human rights but let me tell them what the declaration states. It states that “Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family”—we must remember that this is from the 1940s so the language is not gender-neutral—“an existence worthy of human dignity”. 
Since then the United Nations and the International Labour Organization (ILO) have brought in the ILO’s Decent Work Agenda which our Government has signed up to. That same idea of decency fairness and just remuneration is also reflected in the Decent Work Agenda. The work of the ILO and others throughout the world has been to recognise that there are people who are now economically dependent on the sale of their labour. But because of the changing workforce and changing marketplace over the last 10 to 15 years they find themselves beyond the protection of the current minimum wage and other legislation. 
The ILO addressed that issue in its discussion on employment rights a couple of years ago. The report was  
The Scope of the Employment Relationship 
 and the organisation specifically addressed that issue and the fact that so many workers are now falling outside the traditional employer-employee relationship. During this debate one of my colleagues talked about the situation where as time and pressure go on employers often find ways to circumvent the employer-employee relationship. 
We now have various forms of contracting as well as casualisation and a range of non-standard work. This is a new area of work and I say to all those members on the Government side who I believe have denigrated the work done in the select committee on the bill and also done by me over many years because I am passionate about this area of work that it is a challenging area. It is something we have to think about. Other jurisdictions are thinking about it as well. Some have implemented changes to their legislation to recognise the changing employment relationships. This is an area that will not go away; it will continue to be a problem for workers who are employees in jobs where there is an alternative to an employer-employee relationship and where an employer can contract out or employ a contractor on less pay which puts pressure on our wages. 
As I speak I bear in mind National’s election promise to do something about equalising the wages between ourselves and Australia. That was an election promise. If the National Government does not address the issue then we have a problem. 
Chris Hipkins 
: It was an ambition. 
DARIEN FENTON 
: That was one of National’s ambitions. I will also address Supplementary Order Paper 4 and I thank my colleague Chris Hipkins for going through some of the detail of that Supplementary Order Paper. I was going to do that but I think it is probably beyond the understanding of most of the members on the Government side. It is very technical and we put a lot of work into it. 
David Bennett 
: Put work into it? It’s three pages. 
DARIEN FENTON 
: We put an awful lot of work into making it possible. I tell David Bennett who was on the select committee to go through the report. That member went through those amendments as well but he has rejected them out of hand because of ideology. 
I will address the issue of the $15 minimum wage. Even though the recent increase in the minimum wage by the National Government was the smallest increase to the minimum wage we have had in years and years I know that the workers who would benefit from this bill would welcome it. They would be pleased to get $12.50 an hour. At the moment they are not getting $12.50 an hour; they are getting $3 or $4 an hour and in some cases as little as 25c an hour. 
John Key when he addressed the issue of the minimum wage said that not having any rise would have left the most vulnerable workers with no increases to offset the costs of living. But obviously there is a difference there: National does not think that increase should apply to all workers; it applies only to those who are called employees. That is a very safe position. It is a kind of “get out of jail free” clause whereby if a worker is not an employee then that worker does not have any rights. As I said this area needs to be addressed. 
The Minister of Labour Kate Wilkinson I have to say has treated this whole bill as a joke and I deplore that. Her answer to one of my questions suggested that Kiri Te Kanawa would be on the minimum wage. Well that is ridiculous. It is a disgrace. Does the Minister not understand what the word “minimum” means? The word “minimum” means the least quantity assignable admissible or possible which is what this bill is about. With the Minister’s logic all of those well-paid people in John Key’s office would be on only the minimum wage but that is not what this bill is about. We also know that the Minister was done over in the minimum wage debate. We know that she did not want the minimum wage to go up; she wanted to keep it at $12 an hour but she was rolled. 
There was advice from several departments including Te Puni Kokiri and a letter from the Minister of Maori Affairs—good on them—asking for a $15 minimum wage to be implemented over 2 years. That is what this Supplementary Order Paper will do. But those departments were ignored. The matter has become even more urgent in this recession. It is Labour’s view that in a recession we have to look after the most vulnerable which is what this Supplementary Order Paper will do. The fact that the highest paid the top 3 percent got the biggest tax cuts or most of the tax cuts and the lowest paid got nothing makes the situation even more unfair. It is well known that the lowest-paid people and people on the minimum wage spend all of their income. They do not have discretionary income for luxuries like trips overseas and extra cars; they spend their income on essentials like fruit for the kids in their lunch packs milk and so on. 
I am also as I have said very interested in the commitment to close the wage gap with Australia. I understand that it will take an increase of 2 percent on top of ordinary wage movement for the next 10 or even 20 years for us to catch up with Australia. The Australians have a minimum wage of $18 an hour so we are already far behind. They also have legislation like this bill for dependent and independent contractors that makes sure they get decent pay and decent work. They are not expected to work for nothing. 
Labour says that in these really hard times it is the lowest paid who should take precedence. This sort of legislation is also very important in Australia if we look at what has happened in the textile clothing and footwear industries there. This sort of legislation has helped to deal with the rise of the underground and sweatshop economy in Australia. Do we want that economy growing here? It is out there; people are doing jobs outside the law. I mentioned some of the workers before but I have not had an answer from National members about how they would deal with pizza delivery workers or caregivers. I could go on; I have talked to many many workers in the course of developing this bill. I talked to many workers about their situations. This legislation has not come off the top of my head; it came about because people were saying there is a problem. 
Finally I reflect on the Minister’s comments about Kiri Te Kanawa and note that when this bill was debated while going through its second reading last year there was support from the New Zealand Actors Equity and the Musicians Union. The Actors Equity said that the poor pay and conditions of many actors are not commonly known and that because actors are classed as dependent or independent contractors they are expected to work for a whole lot less than workers who are employees. The Musicians Union said that New Zealanders celebrate New Zealand Music Month and New Zealand music but what is not on show is the poor pay of many musicians who because they are classed as dependent or independent contractors end up getting a whole lot less than the minimum wage. 
I want National members to understand that the reason why musicians actors and performance workers are included in this bill is that they requested to be included. We rely on those iconic workers when we celebrate the national identity of New Zealand. Those workers asked me specifically to include them in this bill along with all of those other sorts of workers who are not plumbers or painters. I tell Tau Henare that leaflet deliverers are just one group covered by the bill. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 I start my contribution to the debate by paying tribute to Darien Fenton for this legislation the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. As she said there is a problem with our law at the moment in this area. This bill would go a long way if passed towards dealing with that problem. Before I came into Parliament I practised in the area of employment law. In fact I started my career in that area working with Darien at what was then the northern hotel hospital and related trades industrial union of workers. 
Grant Robertson 
: Were any of them there? 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: That was a long long time ago even before Mr Robertson was born I think. We learnt at that time that there was significant potential for exploitation in the workforce in New Zealand by the ability to use the legal arbitrage of the distinction between an employee on the one hand and a contractor on the other. There are several of those loopholes in New Zealand employment law. I know that Mrs Collins knows about them because she has come across them in her time in practice as well. 
Another area where our law is not terribly sophisticated and probably needs to be looked at in the same way that Ms Fenton’s bill would do is the area of offshore jurisdiction. An offshore company can come to New Zealand and provided that it maintains some sort of connection to another jurisdiction—a foreign jurisdiction—it can actually set up employment relationships under the laws of that jurisdiction in New Zealand and which our employment institutions would have to enforce as legally binding on employer and employee. So there are some areas in our employment law like this one where one can use the arbitrage of contractor versus employee and like the one that I have mentioned where one can use some sort of connection with a foreign jurisdiction to avoid New Zealand terms and conditions. That often happens in the transport industry for example. It happens increasingly with the employment of foreign executives in New Zealand under terms and conditions often based for example on the law of New South Wales. The employee or employees concerned are employed by foreign corporations operating in New Zealand. 
We have a system in New Zealand that is in some areas of employment law surprisingly unsophisticated. This is one and there are others. Why should we have a system in New Zealand where people can use the ability to re-categorise a person doing exactly the same work as an employee as a contractor and pay that person a whole lot less just because the person is in no economic position to object to that re-categorisation? Is that the sort of arbitrage on pay and conditions that we want to see in this country? Is that how we want to see enterprises be competitive? I would not have thought so. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: What was that word? 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: How it works I say to Mr Henare is that one day a person turns up to work having been an employee for years and years and the employer says: “I’m going to restructure the business and I want to make a bit more profit out of it. I want to run it more profitably and the way I’m going to do that is I’m going to get you to incorporate yourself and your colleagues. You’re going to be contracting to me from now on to do the cleaning in this building. Instead of turning up and being paid $14 an hour your rate of contracting to this company will be $10 an hour if you’re lucky.” That is how they save the $4 an hour. 
David Garrett 
: And he can say: “Bugger off!”. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: Mr Garrett is showing the typical compassion of his party for the low paid. He says they can tell the employer to bugger off. With unemployment rising now it is actually really difficult to do that. It is a really hard thing to do. That is why this bill and measures like it advanced to protect ordinary working people are supported by parties in this House that actually care about those people. It is good to see that Mr Harawira’s party is doing the right thing by this legislation. It is good to see Mr Henare listening carefully. I hope that he might change his vote on it as well. It is good to see people doing the right thing and making sure that ordinary working people are protected because as I have said a number of times already in this speech we have an employment law system that is not terribly sophisticated when it comes to this sort of thing. In New South Wales in Australia for example there are quite a few industries that use contractors but those contractors can unionise they can get the protections of the industrial agreements and that is what we should have here. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 One of the other challenges that has come forward from the National Party—particularly from Mr Peachey—is that if this legislation were so important why did the Labour Government not pass it? 
Allan Peachey 
: You had 9 long years. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Mr Peachey keeps referring to the 9 long dark years of socialism. The argument I throw back is that the previous Government was doing a lot of things to make life better for workers. We did a number of things to the minimum wage. We extended the protection of the minimum wage to young workers in particular. If members opposite look at the minimum wage legislation in the reprinted statutes which I have to hand they will see the amendments. There are pages of amendments that extended the minimum wage to young people. I say that was a good thing and the next thing that we need to look at— 
Chris Tremain 
: You’re not young any more. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: That is right. I am not young enough any more. 
The next thing we need to look at is why contractors should not also have the protection of the minimum wage. I turn to Supplementary Order Paper 13 also in the name of my colleague Darien Fenton which talks about the political commitment to the minimum wage. I actually think that that is really important— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Supplementary Order Paper 13 is in the next part of the bill. We are on Part 2. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: It is too. That is right. I will come back to it. 
I will talk a little bit about political commitment to the minimum wage because fundamentally Part 2 is all about political commitment to the minimum wage and whether National supports the idea of a minimum wage. It is quite clear it does not but it is not honest enough to front up like the ACT Party. I give the ACT Party full credit. It does not believe in a minimum wage and says so. National is not willing to front up and say it does not think there should be a minimum wage. It is not willing to do that. It is not willing to be up front with New Zealanders and say it does not believe in a minimum wage. Why not? 
What happened to wanting to close the wage gap with Australia? Do members remember John Key standing in the Westpac stadium before the election—there was a nice little video clip—and talking about the exodus of New Zealanders to Australia because they could get paid more in Australia? The minimum wage is higher in Australia. Are we trying to catch up with them now? No we are not. The National Party is in Government now. It is one of the things those members said before the election but had no intention of sticking to once they got themselves in the BMW cars cruising around enjoying the perks of office. They are not really interested in the lower-income spectrum at the bottom of the heap. 
I ask members opposite to take a call and tell us why they do not believe that the minimum wage should be increased. They should tell us why they do not believe in it. National will vote against an amendment that would continue to increase the minimum wage until it gets to $15 an hour which is still less than the amount recommended by the International Labour Organization. National is not even willing to go to the minimum level recommended by the International Labour Organization. I think that is pretty disgraceful quite frankly. 
All low-paid workers in the country should be aware of the fact that this Government does not care about them. We will see more evidence of that tomorrow when the Budget is read because ultimately this Government is interested only in people at the highest end of the income spectrum. That is why people on the minimum wage lost their tax cuts when National came into Government—so that they could go to the chief executive of Telecom instead. That is disgraceful and I think it is disgraceful that National will vote against this bill. 
Under the last National Government the minimum wage was increased by how much? 
Grant Robertson 
: 87c. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Eighty-seven cents was the total increase in 9 years. What was it under Labour? About $6—[ 
Interruption 
] It was over $5 under Labour and that was over the same period of time. 
So it is pretty clear that if people are on a low income the Labour Party is the party for them. It is clear that National does not really care about them it is not interested in them—it does not care. 
ALLAN PEACHEY (National—Tamaki) 
: 
 I am reluctant to take a third call on Part 2; however points need to be made. I am sick and tired of sitting over here listening to that Labour Party crowd over there rewrite history when the full truth was revealed in the Part 2 debate prior to the dinner adjournment. It was revealed by Mr Sio. 
I noted with interest the comment of the member in the chair that this bill was about looking after the most vulnerable. I would invite that member to reflect upon what she actually said just as I think that other members opposite need to do a little bit of reflection. They need to ask themselves where the consistency of their line is on the Part 2 debate because it became clear at about half past 5 that this was not all about the vulnerable it was not about the minimum wage; it was about the failure of the last Labour Government to live up to the crocodile tears that we are hearing tonight. That Labour Government when it had the opportunity could have hung its hat on a principle but no the need for Winston Peters to have a ministerial car a house and a self-drive car and the need for Labour members to keep their baubles meant that the people whom those members tonight in this Chamber say they care most about were expendable. 
Let us come back to Part 2. I come back again to the words “prescribed” and “Prescription” and I ask where this bill was in 2006 when Labour members were so busy doing their deals with Winston Peters to keep their salaries to stay in office and to have the nice cars. This bill was nowhere to be seen. In relation to the people they now claim to care most about—and the young member can take the snigger off his face because what I am saying is true—where was Part 2 in 2006? It was hidden because Labour had done a deal with Winston Peters. If one good thing has come out of the Part 2 debate it is that the truth has finally been revealed. Talk about shame—those Labour members should be ashamed of themselves. 
Hon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour) 
: 
 I am pleased to take a call especially after that rave from Allan Peachey. I had not heard him before tea but I thank him for addressing history. The member was not here in those 9 years under Labour when we were an incredibly busy Government working on supporting workers’ rights in this House every day that we came down to the Chamber. 
I thank Darien Fenton. She is a Kiwi battler. She has been out there working for vulnerable workers and contract workers to make sure that their rights are protected. It was Darien and other members in the House including Ministers of Labour like Trevor Mallard Ruth Dyson and Margaret Wilson who made sure we addressed the real issues of protecting workers and of giving a decent salary for a decent day’s work. 
This Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill addresses an anomaly that has been around in labour law since 1983. Labour could not do it all even in 9 years because we were addressing a decade when workers had been squeezed to the bottom of the heap with only an 87c increase in the minimum wage over 9 years. When we got into Government those people did not even know what the value of a unionised workplace was or what benefits they could achieve with union advocacy and support working with both them and the employer to make sure that they got a decent wage. 
I think it is great that Darien has picked up this little loophole and brought it forward. It is a sad reflection that the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee could not agree and that was probably because an election was imminent and its members were not prepared to put themselves on the line. At least ACT is consistent in its position on the bill but I find it absolutely ironic that when we saw the minimum wage being increased by National by I think $3.72 a week—a measly $3.72—National members said that they had done it. They said that they had raised the minimum wage and that was it. I would say that for as long as they are on the Government benches that will probably be the last time that we see them increase the minimum wage. We will not stand here and do nothing about that sort of inaction and arrogance from the Government of the day. 
I think we have to look at the work patterns of contract workers that are outlined in proposed new schedule 2 in Supplementary Order Paper 4. There would not be a person in this Chamber who does not recall informal contract relationships with perhaps a gardener a person who comes in to do the cooking a nanny or whatever worker any member in this Chambers uses especially now that there is tax relief for the top earners in the country. It is very much those workers who are the most vulnerable and here we are sorting it out with a graduated scale so that they get the protection of a minimum wage moving very gently up from $13 an hour in 2009 to $15 by 2011. It is not a big ask but it is too much for the Government to stand. Those members say that they have done it and that they have fixed the increase to the minimum wage rate at $3.72 a week and those workers are lucky if they can even keep their jobs now. 
Tomorrow we will hear about a jobs Budget. I bet we will hear about a jobs Budget. I have to talk about a vaccinator who gave me a flu vaccine. That person said: “I am on the 9-day working week. I am doing this today as a volunteer because my contractor”—who got the contract to do the vaccinations for people like the members in this House—“did not pay me and told me that if I want to keep my job as a contractor and keep in the loop to be able to earn for 9 days a week then I had to do the job on the 10th day for nothing.” I found that simply appalling and I think that the members here would too. I have reported that that is an absolute exploitation of workers. 
The contract workers that Darien is trying to support in this bill are the vulnerable workers. Everybody in this House understands that those workers are holding on for grim death to their jobs as we see this economic recession start to impact on workers who once were not vulnerable workers but worked a decent 10-day fortnight. 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I am not at all sure why anyone would oppose the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill—I really am not. I do not think anyone in this Chamber would say— 
Hon Member 
: Why didn’t you vote for it last year? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I will come to it. 
Hon Member 
: Oh yes! 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: It will be OK. I ask the member just to hang on because I will come to it. I do not think anyone in this Chamber would say poverty is a good idea. I do not think anyone in this Chamber would say the scourge of low pay does not need to be addressed. I do not think anyone in this Chamber wants there to be a huge rich-poor gap in this country; it is not part of our history and it is not the way that we think. So the minimum wage and other things that are attendant upon it is one of the ways that we have addressed those various issues over the years. We address them in other ways as well such as the benefit system our attention to superannuation and so on. But the minimum wage has always been a bottom line. 
The minimum wage has a function to it. It basically tells employers or business people that if they cannot make money unless they pay someone less than the minimum wage we do not really need their activity in the economy. That is the essential feature of a minimum wage. It says we are a First World nation and stuff that looks a bit like slave labour is not our way of moving forward. That is the essential feature of the minimum wage. 
It is also a matter of historic fact—though there is no particular surprise here and I will not make a great big partisan point of this—that Labour Governments generally raise the minimum wage quite a bit and National Governments generally do not. Chris Hipkins my colleague who spoke earlier gave us the figures. They showed that in the 9 years of a former National Government the adult minimum wage rose by 87.5 cents. It went up from $6.12.5c to $7 neat in 9 years. Those 9 years were a period of some inflation but the minimum wage moved by only that amount. In the 9 years that followed the minimum wage went up from $7 to $12. 
Someone has asked not unreasonably why that was done under the previous Labour Government. Let me explain precisely why it was done. As the minimum wage increased so too in some industries some employers—very few of them—sought to take the cost out of the hides of their workers in other ways. One of those ways for instance was to say to home-care workers that it was fine for them to get the minimum wage but they would not be paid for taking their car from one home to another. They would not be paid for the petrol or the other running costs—not for anything. The employers gave them the $12 per hour—or the $11 or whatever it was at the time—but they could not be recompensed for actual and reasonable travel costs. So Labour fixed that. 
Again this bill is about another instance of something that also needs to be fixed because as the minimum wage has risen some employers—not many; only a few—have said they will take it out of the hide of the workforce. And another way of taking it out of the hide of the workforce is to put someone on a contract. A contract says to employees that they are not paid by the hour but paid on the basis of the amount of work that they do. That is OK for some contracts; many people make a good living in that way. But in some areas of endeavour—and pamphlet delivery appears to be the one mentioned in the explanatory note of the bill so that example will do—people are being told yes they can deliver pamphlets and are being told the amount they will get per thousand pamphlets. If it takes people more time to deliver them than it would take them to earn $12 an hour they are told that is their problem and they need to move more quickly by somehow motorising themselves or getting around the area with a great deal more pace. 
On the face of it that might be all right too—what is wrong with walking quickly when one does a pamphlet delivery? But on the other hand we all know that some pamphlet deliverers are down to receiving $3 or $4 an hour. The question that then arises is why they would bother to deliver them. The answer is that if those employees are at home have a bit of time between the kids going to school and coming back home and the pamphlets are to be delivered in their own area they may as well do that work. But it still means that that activity approaches slave labour. It still means that that activity should not be part of our economy. Either one pays more for pamphlet delivery or one does not have it. Those are the two options. I do not honestly understand why anyone in the Chamber would get up and take a different view from that. I do not think anyone really wants a working mum perhaps on the domestic purposes benefit to be paid $3 or $4 or $5 an hour to stomp the streets putting pamphlets in our letterboxes. We are currently allowing that situation to occur. 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Mangere) 
: 
 We are on the eve of the Government’s first Budget. We are also in an environment where there is a lot of uncertainty in many homes. There will be a lot of expectation on this Government and on what it will be providing to meet those uncertainties and to provide confidence to the increasing number of people who are finding themselves out of a job. The last figures I saw showed that there are 115000 unemployed people in New Zealand. Many of those people when there are no jobs will be looking at opportunities to take up jobs. It may be that they will consider the jobs that are outlined in new schedule 2 which is inserted by the amendment in the name of Ms Fenton. 
I acknowledge my colleague Darien Fenton because this is an important issue for a large and significant sector of the community—and not just of my community but I suspect of the country. People want this bill to pass so that they have some form of protection. When there is rising unemployment most of those people are in vulnerable positions and will be forced to negotiate their terms and conditions from a very weak standpoint. If they do not accept what is on offer then somebody else who is prepared to be paid less and to work in very unsafe environments will take it up. That is what will occur if there are no protections for these workers. 
By and large our employers are good people who genuinely work their guts out to try to ensure that workers can have jobs and are protected. But I think they are looking to this Government for some leadership. They are looking to this Government to provide some confidence and to provide not just jobs but sustainable incomes that can enable a father or a mother to sustain themselves and their families in the years ahead. Without that protection they will feel let down. I suspect that that is what will happen if this Government does not provide the leadership that our nation needs and that leadership is about jobs and about providing incomes that people can live off. 
I suspect it will be very difficult for National members on the other side of the Chamber to fully understand why the minimum wage is important. I will provide some figures to help them. Labour raised the minimum wage every year that it was in Government. It was raised from $7 as it was in 1999 up to $12 in 2008. When this Government came into power 5 or 6 months ago it moved it by 50c. Was it 50c? 
Chris Hipkins 
: Yes it was 50c. 
SU’A WILLIAM SIO 
: So it is now $12.50. If somebody is working 8 hours that gives him or her $100 a day. If he or she is working 5 days a week that is $500 a week. After deducting taxes of $4580 a year the person has $21000 left which comes out to about $412 a week. If that person is renting a private home and $300 is spent on rent for a two-bedroom or three-bedroom home in an area of Manukau City that leaves that person with $112 for the week. If the average-sized family in Mangere for example comprises four people we are condemning this family with a one-income earner to live on $111 or $112 per week. If the family puts aside $50 a week for power or $50 a week for the telephone bill what is left? That is what National is doing. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Labour—Ikaroa-Rawhiti) 
: 
 I follow on from my learned colleague Mr Hodgson in relation to some of the realities of the minimum wage. A lot of the young lads in the Government who have just turned up in Parliament will learn after they have been here for as long as some of us have how you harden up in this place. At the end of the day their mind-sets are so narrow that they believe that they have already arrived. You mark my words tomorrow after the Budget some people will be shaking in this country—people like the 220 workers who have been laid off by the Accident Compensation Corporation tonight. People who understand the labour market well and understand the general nuances of it understand that other things flow on from imperfect management. That is what this Government is about; it does not really know what it is doing. 
Hon Shane Jones 
: Reckless! 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It is more than reckless; it is outrageous and it is insidious. 
At the end of the day do Government members care? No. I listened to the prattling of Mr Peachey. Mr Peachey knows that when he was teaching—God forbid—teachers had a lift of nearly 18 percent in their salaries and wages. Who did that? The previous Labour Government. Let us go back to the last time that National exited the Opposition side of the Chamber and ended up over there on the Government benches. We inherited a rise in the rate of unemployment for Maori and Pacific Islanders to 21.4 percent. Mark my words that is where we are going again. Unemployment for Maori and Pacific Islanders trucked up to 26 percent. Do National members care? No. 
Chris Tremain 
: Part 2 of the bill. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: This is all relevant to Part 2 of the bill. Do they care? No. They have a great ethos of supporting businesses. 
We have a magic inherited thing from those who have generally been to Harvard and other over-endowed academics who tend to suggest— 
Hon Members 
: Own goal! 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: —no he’s a top bloke—that if increased capital is injected into failing businesses then everything will correct itself. If the market played out internationally then we would be all right and that would be true. But we have seen what has happened with regard to the subsidies in Europe and that will have an impact here. You mark my words— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Oh Mr Chair— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Also we are actually on Part 2. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Yes well this is relevant. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: It might help if we talked about Part 2 occasionally. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: When I worked in the labour market I and Mr Tisch went around supporting small enterprises and innovation in this country. This is the goddam truth—we did that. You left this country in a mess. 
Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill in the name of our great and learned colleague Darien Fenton shows that we care about the working class. [ 
Interruption 
] Let me give you a lesson while my friend here Shane Jones is walking and talking. The bad thing about your Budget and the worst thing in relation to Part 2 is that there are now three levels of workers who are being put into unemployment. It is a sad state of affairs. Usually it is the lowest-paid—the factory workers the meat workers; all those people—who are affected. But a lot of middle-management people are getting put under. Do you care? 
I was in Hawke’s Bay the other day—and this is relevant to Part 2—and I saw a great skite in the newspaper by the real estate organisation. It was saying it has had its greatest quarter of sales for a long long time. Then I had a closer look and I saw it said there had been 35-odd mortgagee sales. That drives the employment market; that is what this is about. 
You need fair remuneration. You need fair rates of pay. Why do you not want to give them? You sit here in these pastel confines you are paid every fortnight—overpaid for that matter most of you people—and you do not even have a song in your heart to ensure that Part 2 of this bill goes well. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The member knows that he cannot bring the Chair into the debate. On frequent occasions I have indicated that to the member. While I appreciate being mentioned occasionally I do not like to be included as part of the debate. I just remind the member that we are on Part 2. It is about minimum remuneration. Just to make it very clear I say we are talking about clauses 5 to 10 and that is what the debate should be about. The member’s time has expired. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 Well talk about it! That is what happens when someone goes out to march for the people and before the march has even begun he is sitting behind the counter at McDonald’s. I tell that member Parekura Horomia that the thickshake comes with Part 3. [ 
Interruption 
] Yes bring back Georgie Pie; bring back all of that. I tell members that what that member just talked about for 5 minutes while he was getting his make-up done by Shane Jones had absolutely nothing to do with the minimum wage for sole contractors and he knows it. He has been having too many burgers. That is what the problem is. The argument tonight is about the real world and the fantasy land that Makatanara lives in. Makatanara is McDonald’s for those who do not know. Shane Jones said to me tonight: “Hey Tau you know this McDonald’s thing is going to blow over. By tomorrow it will be all over.” Well I have news for “me and Mr Jones”: McDonald’s is here to stay. The legacy that has been left behind by those two members Shane Jones and Parekura Horomia is not the Minimum Wage Act; the legacy left behind for ever and a day is being caught out on national TV with a Fillet-o-Fish combo a Big Mac and double fries. The thick-shake is to come. 
Hon Pete Hodgson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think we are probably more than halfway through the member’s contribution. I am pleased that you too are enjoying the speech but the debate is about Part 2. I wonder whether we could have some talk about that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I do not need any help. It has certainly been entertaining but I remind the member—as I did the previous speaker—that the debate is on Part 2. I ask the member to come to Part 2. Thank you. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Mr Chair— 
Hon Shane Jones 
: Have you read Part 2? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Absolutely I have read Part 2. It is about that old philosophy of Labour: we will tell you what to do we will create the victim and then we will tell you what the solution is. Labour comes up with a victim then it comes up with a solution. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We are meant to be trying to speak to Part 2. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Carry on. We are on Part 2. Please do not bring the Chair into the debate either. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Yes absolutely Mr Chairperson. Part 2 is about creating the victim. That is what this bill is about. It is creating the victim— 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: Rubbish! 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh it is rubbish is it? We will soon see what we do with rubbish when it comes to voting. 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The member is starting to insinuate that workers are victims and he is victimising them. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: These are debating points. This can be a robust debate. I ask the member to continue. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: That is what you get if you spend too much time at the counter at McDonald’s I suppose. 
Labour members will not give the opportunity for a worker to negotiate. They have created the victim; now they have come up with the surprise package and it is no package at all because it lacks dignity. This bill lacks the forethought to do anything about it. It is a plaintive cry to the workers in New Zealand whom Labour spent the last 9 years dicking over. Now that those members are in Opposition they can say what they like. That is what Part 2 is about; that is what Parts 1 2 3 and 4 are about. The bill is nothing more than a sop to their mates in the International Labour Organisation whom they love to go on and on about. It is a sop to their mates in the unions and that is all it is. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 I will address Part 2 and in particular the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 4 to insert new clauses 7A 7B and 7C. But before I do so I want to respond to Mr Henare. He raised the subject of dignity and to me this bill is very much about dignity. I ask Mr Henare what kind of dignity he thinks it is for somebody to go out in the pouring rain and deliver pamphlets or Mr Hipkins’ pizza. What kind of dignity is it for people to have no minimum wage no guarantee about the amount of money they will earn? This bill is about dignity. It is about providing dignity to workers who at the moment have little protection regarding their wages. For Mr Henare to stand up and repeat ad nauseam his absolute rubbish on this bill offends the workers we are trying to protect here. They are the most vulnerable workers in society; they are the ones we are trying to protect in this bill. It is about dignity; it is about dignity of those workers. 
New clause 7A is a chance for National to live up to the rhetoric that we have heard tonight and to show whether its members truly believe in regularly increasing the minimum wage. We have heard a lot of talk tonight about the fact there was a 50c increase recently and that was welcome; that was excellent. But this bill and new clause 7A give them the opportunity to live up to their own hype. New clause 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 4 allows them to increase the minimum wage to $13 per hour of paid work from 1 July 2009 $14 per hour from 1 July 2010 and $15 per hour from 1 July 2011. New clause 7A inserts an annual review of minimum wages. Here is National’s chance to do what Labour did in 9 years in office: increase the minimum wage every year. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: The law is to that effect. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I say to Mr Woodhouse that we do need to pass a law to do it because I have no confidence that the members on that side of the House will do that—no confidence whatsoever. I was working in Parliament when Don Brash was the leader of the National Party. He got up and said that the minimum wage drives down employment opportunities so we cannot and should not have a minimum wage. That is the view of many members on that side of the House. 
Mr Peachey got up and started obsessing about the word “prescription”. He will need a prescription if he takes another call on that matter. Mr Peachey has to know that if he keeps talking about prescriptions all that means is that he does not believe in a minimum wage. Of course we have to be able to prescribe it. That is the very point of the minimum wage and the reason why we do it. Mr Peachey gets up and says the bill is all about prescription; well that is because that is how we will make sure there is a minimum wage. That is how we will get dignity for workers right across New Zealand. 
New clause 7A allows for an annual review of minimum wages. New clause 7B allows for a comprehensive review of the minimum rate of remuneration. National has the opportunity to support those clauses and to say: “We believe in minimum wages. We will sign up to an annual review and a 3-yearly review of the minimum rate of remuneration.” That is National’s chance; otherwise what we are seeing tonight are crocodile tears. 
National’s speakers have not got up tonight and said that they believe in the minimum wage. They have got up tonight and told us—all through this debate—why the minimum wage is wrong. We know that is National’s true agenda. National members should be supporting this bill if as Mr Henare says they believe in the dignity of workers. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I rise again to support Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. It intrigues me that the attacks made upon this legislation really show the true belief structure of the National members in respect of minimum rates of remuneration. 
Many overseas jurisdictions do not have legislation that regulates the minimum wage which we have in New Zealand. They have legislation that regulates the minimum rate of remuneration. There is an important difference between those two. If we regulate the minimum wage that applies only to wage relationships—that is to contracts of employment rather than contracts of service. 
At present in New Zealand we have a very vulnerable class of people. Some of the lowest-paid people in society do not receive the benefit of the minimum wage. They suffer a lot of other detriments as well. They receive no sick pay if they are ill. Those people may be working for a terribly low rate of pay but if they are off work because they are sick they do not get sick pay. If they work for 50 weeks in the year they do not even receive 2 weeks of holiday pay because they have no entitlement to holiday pay. They are not paid for statutory holidays. Those are normal minimum entitlements that people who are employed should receive. Workers on contracts of service do not have adequate protection against unfair dismissal because they are not employees. 
This bill does not fix all of those things but it goes some way towards making sure that at the very least the amount they are paid when they are working is no lower than the minimum wage. I ask members what is wrong with that. It is such a simple issue. It is an obvious failure of the current law—notwithstanding the fact that people still will not be protected in relation to receiving sick pay holiday pay or protection against unfair dismissal. But at least they would be getting the minimum rate of remuneration which I think most people in New Zealand probably think they already get by law. Most people in New Zealand do not understand that a class of people is not employed in a traditional employer-employee relationship but is employed on the basis of a contract for service which is not an employer-employee relationship. Therefore those people do not even get the minimum wage. 
I come from the city of Dunedin and it used to have the shame of sweatshops. That was a long time ago when Dunedin was probably at that stage the industrial heart of New Zealand. We had sweatshops and those sweatshops were effectively eliminated by good central government legislation that set maximum hours of work and minimum rates of remuneration for waged workers. Back in those days we did not have the artifice of people escaping the employer-employee relationship through a contractual relationship that was not an employment relationship. This is the equivalent of that social ill because we now have very low effective rates of remuneration for people who do not even get the protection of the minimum wage. 
I feel very strongly about this legislation. If it was on my conscience that I was voting against the most minimal of protections I would have cause to think that maybe my ideology was just a little too tough because it is not fair that people who do not have the minimum protection of receiving sick pay holiday pay and protection against unfair dismissal do not even get the minimum wage. That wage is all that this legislation provides for. National Party members can say that that is wrong but it shows that they do not believe in the minimum wage for other people either. They refuse to even see the minimum wage be extended to this most vulnerable group of people a great proportion of whom are Maori and other groups that are overrepresented in the lower socio-economic groups. Mr Henare who is voting against this bill is doing a disservice to the low-paid people whom he purports to represent the interests of. This bill should be passed. 
Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) 
: 
 Kia ora ano tatou. We stand to support our colleague in the chair Darien Fenton who is moving this legislation which will protect vulnerable people. I must say that recently my senior colleague Parekura Horomia and I met some of those vulnerable people in the fast-food industry. We felt an obligation to stand with them during the hikoi and we took a short opportunity to visit them. They reminded us that they have bleak and bitter memories of their parents’ stories about being shafted and half-starved during the time of the previous National Government. That is why they join us in supporting these amendments. [ 
Interruption 
] We have got some squeaking from the back from Mr Bridges and others. Chicken nuggets? Forget it. They have no impact on Parekura Horomia and me. 
We are here to remind workers of the next opportunity that will arise. Actually it is very interesting that Tau Henare and Hone Harawira are sitting here in the Chamber. I am not sure whether they were on the select committee that dealt with this bill but I know that today the Clerk’s Office had to be called to separate them while they were sitting on their own select committee. Hone Harawira would not listen because his leader is in Sydney Melbourne Canberra or somewhere else and Tau Henare as a consequence of being sidelined listens to no one. He needs to listen to the workers whose lives will be enhanced and improved by this legislation. 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: He was a union organiser! 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: OK; Tau Henare should know a little about this. He cut his teeth on the union movement before he set a record in the House for joining how many wakas? Tahi rua toru wha! Wha wha. I am on Part 2 again. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. There was a Maori word in there that I think should be translated for those who do not understand that language. I wonder whether he could help the Committee out. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: I say that tahi is one then the next word is two then three and then four. To emphasise the noun in Maori we repeat it twice. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: That is all we need to know. Although we can have a bit of a laugh this is interrupting the flow of the debate. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: I agree with Mr David Parker and Mr Grant Robertson that this bill provides a mechanism to review progress. The behaviour and conduct of our friends on the other side of the Chamber will be reviewed next year and in 2011. Firstly those members are anti-jobs and secondly they do not care about the rising level of poverty that will surround these people. This legislation is modest in character yet National members do not even have the charity of heart or spirit to move away from their hard cold callous ideology to support it. That is shocking. That is why we agree that this bill should go ahead with a review clause that has a focus on those people who have been vulnerable for far too long. They know their fortunes are ebbing under the current Government which is also what we will see tomorrow in the Budget. 
But coming back to Part 2 again there is a very interesting option in new section 6A inserted in the Minimum Wage Act by clause 8. It provides for a minimum rate of remuneration. I ask why it is that no one on that side of the Chamber will openly agree with a minimum rate or remuneration as our senior colleague Mr Hodgson said. Why are members opposite hiding the fact that their real agenda is to rely on the ruthlessness of the market wage which is constantly driven down and will be driven down again? Part of the status of being a citizen of New Zealand is that we should be able to rely on certain protections when entering the labour market. Members on this side of the Chamber are prepared to stand up for those protections and safeguards. Members on that side of the Chamber constantly want to marginalise the amount of influence power and relevance that these vulnerable workers will have. Well those workers were out in force up and down Queen Street from the south to the north. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Pull your tie down bro. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: Mr Henare was not there. He is a lion in the House but when he went to Auckland he did not say anything about the hikoi—not a single thing. 
Chris Tremain 
: What’s this got to do with Part 2? 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: Of course many of the people who will be enhanced by Part 2 were walking and rubbing shoulders with Parekura Horomia myself and a variety of others. They know that as a consequence of this legislation they will be on a permanent Happy Meal—that is why. This legislation will buttress and enhance the appeal of our fellow member there amongst those elements of the community who know they cannot rely on the forces on that side of the Chamber. The forces on that side of the Chamber have a bleak view that remuneration should not be set at a minimum level and should never be reviewed. The sooner we see the rear end of that thinking the better for everyone. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 All those members of the House who are new here this year would have expected Labour to pass this legislation when it had the chance. Labour members have stood here tonight and said how great the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill is for New Zealand workers and how bad National is for not bringing in this legislation and what did they do for 9 years? For 9 years they sat there and they did not do it. I feel sorry for Darien. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The member must refer to a member by the member’s full name. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: I feel sorry for Darien Fenton. I think she has been led down the garden path by Labour. It has put her up here tonight to promote this bill but it did not give her the support she needed last year. Where were Labour members last year? They did not come into this House to say how great this bill was. They were too worried about keeping Peter Brown and Winston Peters in line before they did anything. That was what it was all about for them. They could not get the support of the smaller parties so they never supported this bill. 
It is a shame for Labour members to come in here now and deliver all these speeches about how great they are for workers how they look after workers’ rights and how they want to be there for workers in the future. But where were they for workers when they had a chance? Were they passing Part 2 of this bill when they had a chance to do it? No way! They were not there. They have never been there. The workers of New Zealand know they never will be there for them because there is only one thing that Labour members care about and that is themselves. All those members care about is being in here. All they care about is what happens to them. They do not care about the people of this country; they never have and they never will. 
Their whole mantra is what Tau Henare talked about. Those members try to put people down and keep them down. They do not give them choice or the chance to make their own choices in life. They do not give people the chance to run their own business or become an independent contractor. People have to be employees because if they are employees the Labour Party has the ability to control them. That is what the Labour Party is about. Labour does not want independent contractors. The word “independent” is against the Labour’s beliefs and that is why it will not have it. Why would Labour want somebody who is independent—somebody who can think for him or herself? If people can think for themselves then they do not join the Labour Party. That is the point. That is what the Labour Party is trying to do to all New Zealanders. It wants all New Zealanders to be the same to look the same to act the same to work the same and to be paid the same. 
Is that how it works? No way! We do not see members opposite going out and living the dream do we? No way! They are in here in their cushy chairs telling other people how to live their lives. That will not cut it because the public of New Zealand see through the Labour Party. They saw through Labour at the last election and they will see through Labour at the next couple of elections. People know that they want to be independent. They want to have a dream. They want to make the most of their opportunities. They want to do the best that they can do for themselves and for their families and Part 2 does not give them that. Part 2 takes that away from them. Part 2 takes away from individuals the freedom to make the most of their opportunities and the Labour Party thinks that is good. That is against human rights. It is a human right that we give people the choice and the ability to deliver their own opportunities in the best way they can. 
They need those human rights. Labour members talk about human rights all the time. They think they know all about human rights but what are they providing for human rights in the bill? Labour is not providing choice freedom or independence; all it wants is employees whom Labour can sign up to a union and tell them how to vote so Labour can fund its campaigns. 
That is all this bill is about. That is all the Labour Party has ever wanted and will ever want. Labour knows that that gives it control. That is what this bill is about. The public of New Zealand should not be fooled into thinking this bill is about the minimum wage and all those kinds of things to do with workers’ rights; the bill is about control. The bill is about Labour determining that it has control over people’s lives. The people in New Zealand do not want that. They told Labour so at the end of last year. The Committee will tell Labour when it votes on this bill that we do not want that. The public of New Zealand will be far better off. 
Hon DAMIEN O’CONNOR (Labour) 
: 
 I had no intention of speaking tonight but after coming down to the Chamber and hearing that rant from David Bennett I had to get up and speak. The Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill is about supporting New Zealand—the country our ancestors worked for. New Zealand is a country of equal opportunity. The bottom line is that this bill represents the very values the Labour Party stands for: we will provide a safety net for people in this country who need it. 
We know what the Tories on that side of the Chamber stand for. They think the person who earns the most money is the person who has to be revered and looked up to. They think that because Mr Key made a lot of money he should be chief. Well let me tell the Tory party that most of the people who make this country work—the people who produce the goods and the exports—are earning $12 to $14 an hour. They are picking fruit and milking cows. They are working out there on farms. The Tories say that if people are on a contract they do not deserve the minimum wage. 
Labour says that it is time to deal with some of the technical issues around employment conditions so that we can guarantee the minimum wage not just for people on wages but for all workers. Do members know why? It is because someone earning $12 an hour is working hard to survive. We should at least provide that safeguard for people who are on contracts. But no the Tory Government thinks we need a free market in everything in order to deliver trickle-down benefits to everyone in this country. The Government thinks that rising unemployment is good news because it puts pressure on increasing wages and may allow a whole lot of employers who will exploit people who have no ability to negotiate to keep wages down. That is not what our ancestors worked for in this country. 
We need to ensure that the increased levels of productivity and the increased benefits from whatever industry that drives this country can flow through to each and every New Zealander. The market does not deliver that situation. If we ever needed a lesson in the failure of market economics to deliver we should look around the world and see where there is a need for guidance regulation and wise law. We need good law not only as in this case for people who are on the minimum wage but for people right at the top end where the market has failed many who have been trying to manage capital around the world. The market does not always deliver. We need good law to protect those people who need a fair outcome from their efforts. 
I know that Mr Peachey over there understands that and I know he supports that. He knows that unless we protect people who are on contracts and need at least the minimum wage for their efforts the market will deliver poverty friction and tension in families in his area and bad outcomes for all New Zealanders. What we are trying to do here is deal with a technical issue that says we need a base rate and a basic level of protection for each and every worker in this country. That is just a fair go. 
Most New Zealanders expect this Government to deliver laws that give a fair go to each and every New Zealander. Labour increased the minimum wage nine times when we were in Government. We increased it from $7 to $12. That was a reasonably good effort. There was still the issue that those on contracts did not get the same level of protection. That is why this bill is needed. For any Tory to vote against this bill is an absolute outrage to the fair-minded etiquette and values that drive each and every New Zealander. We need protection for all New Zealanders not just those at the top. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 4 in the name of Darien Fenton to Part 2 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendments not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 2 be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Part 2 not agreed to. 
New Part 3 Political commitment to Minimum Wage 
DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
: 
 New Part 3 to the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill proposed in Supplementary Order Paper 13 is about political commitment and it seeks to make clear whether parties are committed to a minimum wage for all New Zealand workers. The reason for this new part is that as I think we have heard in the debate tonight the minimum wage has been somewhat of a political football similar to the way political parties have dealt with superannuation in the past. That is why I have taken the idea for this proposed new part from the New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act and have included a schedule that would list the political parties that support the provision of a minimum wage. 
I will talk about political commitment. As I said we have had a very interesting and rollicking debate and it has been very frustrating at times to sit here and not be able to respond from the chair as I would like to. But I will relay one story. As I have sat here and listened to the debate I have been thinking about a truckdriver whom I met in Papakura. In fact he came to see me to tell me his story. I think the National members should listen. He is employed as an independent contractor. He was promised $1000 a week’s worth of driving work and he thought that would be the perfect job for him and would deliver a decent income for him and his family. He signed up but for 2 months he received no work. Then he received a call to come in for training. Off he went and watched an hour long video on how to drive a truck. Again he heard nothing for weeks. He was very frustrated and worried by then; he was worrying about feeding his family. He made repeated phone calls to the principal contractor and finally got a job driving every Saturday on a contract worth less than $100 a week. He eventually got two more contracts but the three jobs altogether paid only $450 a week which is less than half of the amount he had been promised and he had to work long and sometimes dangerous hours. I know for a fact that he was also breaching his logbook rules but that was the only way he could keep this work. Finally the driver approached the principal contractor and was told that every driver who is employed in that arrangement runs an independent business and that the principal contractor had no responsibility to the workers. He told the drivers that it was up to them to do their own thing and that he had nothing to do with it. His advice was that if they did not like it they should go the disputes tribunal. 
I have sat here listening to the debate and I have been thinking about political commitment and about this truckdriver as we have gone through the evening. I have also heard some ridiculous comments in relation to McDonald’s. We heard today in question time from the Minister for Social Development and Employment something about McDonald’s. Here we are actually talking about what we call McJobs. They are not real jobs; they are McJobs. They are jobs that do not deliver fairness do not deliver a decent income and do not deliver respect. They are undignified but some people have to do them. 
Talking about political commitment I say that I have listened to the National members going on and on about why Labour did not make this change in the last 9 years. I think there has been plenty of discussion and contributions to the debate from Labour members. I put on the record and make it very clear that my Labour colleagues have strongly supported this bill all the way through. In fact the former Ministers of Labour—including the Hon Ruth Dyson who was a Minister at the time—worked very hard with me the Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand to find a way to make this bill work and that is what was proposed to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and voted against by National. My answer to National is not to go on and on about what Labour did not do. If those members think it is a good idea or if they want to criticise us they should do something about it and vote for the bill. I say to National members and to the people listening tonight that National has just voted against increasing the minimum wage to $13 an hour on 1 July this year $14 an hour on 1 July next year and $15 an hour on 1 July 2011. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Don’t believe it. 
DARIEN FENTON 
: National members have just voted against that. That was one of the amendments in Supplementary Order Paper 4. The people of New Zealand now know that the National Government has no commitment to increasing the minimum wage. 
Again talking about political commitment I say that Labour was a very busy Government in its 9 years in office. It had a lot to do—it had an awful lot to do. Labour had to decide on some priorities. Our political commitments were things like the Employment Relations Act. I was not in Parliament then but I understand that that legislation was a huge fight. The National Party put up a huge fight against the Employment Relations Act. In fact it was going to be the end of the world as we knew it! As I understand it National put up a special select committee. Are we not seeing history repeating itself with the behaviour of those members at the moment? I was very involved—both before I came into Parliament and once I was here—in Part 6 of Employment Relations Amendment Act 2006 which covers vulnerable workers. That part covered the particular situation of contracted-out workers and their job security when their contract changes hands. Labour brought that legislation in and once again National fought it tooth and nail both in its original form and when it came back to the House after the courts decided that the original legislation had some holes in it. 
As my colleagues have said we increased the minimum wage again and again. National members have been trying to make a virtue out of the fact that the previous National Government increased the minimum wage by 50c. If Labour had not been in Government for the last 9 years we would have a minimum wage of $7.50. For those under 20 it would be $4.20 or $4.45. That is what it was when Labour came into Government in 1999. That is what National did. For someone who was under 20 the minimum wage was $4.20 an hour until Labour became the Government. 
We also had to change the Holidays Act to make sure that workers not only got paid holidays—that they were paid for 4 weeks’ holiday—but also could get time and a half for working on a public holiday. That provision had been stripped away thanks to the National Government in the 1990s. We had to bring in statutory sick leave and bereavement leave. We had to make sure that people had some rights unlike the workers we are trying to protect tonight. We had to do something about health and safety. We had to bring in new laws to increase the rights of workers— 
Hon Members 
: Oh! 
DARIEN FENTON 
: Everyone groans. This Government does not believe that the health and safety of workers should be protected. We brought in KiwiSaver and so on. The list goes on and on. 
As I have said often the other thing Labour did that I am very proud of is that we increased the pay of low-paid workers particularly those who work for the State in hospitals—the cleaners the kitchen workers the orderlies—and those who work as cleaners in schools aged-care workers and so on. Did National do any of that in its 9 years in Government? No it did not. This new part is an opportunity for the National Government to vote in favour of the minimum wage and show that it has a political commitment to it so that workers in the country do not have to worry that if this Government stays in power—well it will for the next 2 years anyway—the Minimum Wage Act will be abolished and we will start to see the minimum wage go backwards as indeed it did during National’s last term in Government. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) 
: 
 I was not going to take a call on new Part 3 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. I was quite keen to sit and watch this bill be consigned to the dustbin as it deserves to be and as even the members on the other side of the Chamber think it should be. However I did feel compelled to haul my lanky frame out of the chair once I had read new Part 3. I thought that a couple of weeks ago there was a real affront to the parliamentary process when members on the Opposition side introduced something in the region of 8000 separate amendments to legislation. I thought some of them were real doozies. But frankly this new Part 3 absolutely takes the cake. I cannot believe what I am reading. 
According to new section 15 inserted by clause 12 on Supplementary Order Paper 13 in the name of Darien Fenton a leader of a political party that is represented in Parliament is required to notify the Minister in writing of his or her party’s agreement with this legislation. I find that to be extraordinary. If the member seriously thinks that any party in this Chamber would conscientiously object to any Act even though he or she did not support it frankly I am in despair at that member’s attitude to this Parliament. The dodgy democracy that she thinks is going on here is more akin to the situation in a place like Kazakhstan or Burma. Frankly she insults those places by tabling this sort of Supplementary Order Paper. It absolutely is of such a woeful quality that I am under no illusions about why the people of this country exercised the freedom of choice that Mr Lees-Galloway talked about when he took a call on Part 2 and threw the Labour Party out of power. 
The simple fact is that the highest minimum wage in this country’s history was passed by a National Government. The discussion about whether National supports a minimum wage has been had. The argument is over. The question is whether that member has such a lack of trust such a lack of faith in our parliamentary democracy that we need this kind of nonsense to be introduced even in this bill. Frankly I despair at that. I make no apology for what I and my colleagues on the Government side of the Chamber firmly believe in and have stated in this debate. It is a commitment to fairness and equity in employment a commitment to aspiration a commitment to productivity and a commitment to unwind the red tape that was progressively wrapped around the employers of this country after the 9 years of the previous Labour Government. This bill will do none of those things for the most vulnerable workers whom this member is trying to help. It will do none of those things. It is well intentioned but ideologically and fundamentally flawed. 
The member for Dunedin North in attempting to answer the question about why his party did not introduce this legislation after having had 9 years of opportunity to do so hit the nail on the head. He said this issue is about a couple of unscrupulous pamphlet-delivering employers and Mr Hipkins’ pizza delivery man. The fact that we have spent so much time on debating a bill to save those vulnerable workers when we have perfectly good employment relations legislation in place and a minimum wage underscores the reasons why the previous Labour Government did not introduce this bill when it had the opportunity to do so. Labour members do not believe in this bill and I hope they do not believe in the nonsense on Supplementary Order Paper 13. I look forward to being able to vote down this bill and throw it out. 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 Supplementary Order Paper 13 is about political commitment to the minimum wage. I was disappointed to hear Michael Woodhouse refer to it as “dodgy democracy”. He will be interested to know that the wording was drafted by a National Government in relation to superannuation. If it was dodgy democracy when it came to superannuation why did National introduce and vote for it? Clearly National members did not think that it was dodgy democracy when it related to superannuation so why should it be dodgy democracy when it relates to the minimum wage? It is because National members do not have a commitment to the minimum wage. This Supplementary Order Paper is fundamentally about commitment. 
The arguments that National members have put forward for not voting in favour of giving contractors the minimum wage just do not stack up. Let us take them one at a time. First of all let us talk about the compliance costs. In an earlier speech I talked about the compliance costs that this legislation would load on to businesses—and found that there really are none. Businesses pretty much already have to take all the compliance measures they would need to adhere to under this Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. There is a perception that the number of hours worked would increase because workers would not work efficiently if they were paid on an hourly rate rather than a fixed-sum contract and would have no incentive to work faster. But that was covered by the amendments—there was a provision that stated that people who unreasonably drag out their working hours do not need to be paid for them. That situation is covered. 
Fundamentally the issue comes back to whether the parties in Parliament believe in a minimum wage. This Supplementary Order Paper gives parties an opportunity to say to New Zealanders that they believe or do not believe in a minimum wage. National’s track record suggests that it does not believe in a minimum wage because during its last 9 years in office it increased the minimum wage by 87c as opposed to the $5 increase under the 9 years of the previous Labour Government. 
So much for National’s ambition for New Zealand! So much for closing the wage gap with Australia! John Key said at the Westpac Stadium that he did not want New Zealanders to work in Australia yet people can earn significantly more money in Australia than they can in New Zealand. The minimum wage is higher in Australia. The Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill would do something about that by increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour. That is lower than the ILO recommends but National will still vote against it. National is saying to the lowest-paid workers that if they want a better fairer deal and want to earn more they should move to Australia. Have things not changed dramatically in the 6 months since National was elected? National has compounded the problem for low-paid workers by taking away their tax cuts and giving them to those workers on the highest incomes. National took away tax cuts from the people on the minimum wage and gave them to the people at the highest end of the income spectrum. Of course people on very very low wages will not get any tax cuts at all because they do not earn even the minimum wage. That is disgraceful. 
Tau Henare talked earlier this evening about dignity and he was absolutely right that this bill is about dignity. It is about the dignity of people who do not earn the minimum wage of $12.50 an hour—there is nothing dignified about that. There is nothing undignified about delivering fast-food and we should not ridicule people because of their jobs. Delivering fast-food is a legitimate job and we should not ridicule people for it. There is nothing dignified about doing it for 5 or 6 bucks an hour. Those people are entitled to earn the minimum wage and so are the people who work hard delivering pamphlets and newspapers. They should be entitled to earn the minimum wage and we in this Chamber should not ridicule them. Darien Fenton talked about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of decency and fairness and about just remuneration as an integral part of decency and fairness as required under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 
One reason why this amendment bill is important is that it highlights the contrasting values on each side of the Chamber. National’s values are all about privilege; they are all about the people at the top of the economic heap. We in Labour believe that every Kiwi should get a fair go—and a fair go at $12.50 an hour is still pretty minimal. I have yet to hear an argument from any National member as to why somebody should not earn the minimum wage for doing a hard day’s work. I have yet to hear any argument from National members about that. Instead they just rant on about Labour’s 9 years in Government and do not put forward any compelling arguments. National members have already forgotten about hard-working ordinary Kiwis. They are interested only in those at the top of the economic heap and I suspect that we will see more of that tomorrow in the Budget. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I speak on behalf of the privileged party. It is a privilege to be a member of the National Party and to be in Government. I start with a quote—and I apologise to the writer if I get it wrong—with words to this effect: “The high rate of unemployment among teenagers and especially black teenagers is both a scandal and a serious source of social unrest. Yet it is largely a result of minimum wage laws”. These have been “one of the most if not the most anti-black laws [ever]”. That quote was from Milton Friedman. I go back to what my colleague Mr Woodhouse said. This is not an argument about the minimum wage per se. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Yes it is. He hasn’t read it. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I tell the member to pipe down or go back to kindergarten. 
This is not about the big battle of the minimum wage. It was the National Government under Rob Muldoon that brought in the Minimum Wage Act in 1983. The war the battle has been won and lost and stored away for posterity. We have here a way of creating another set of victims in society. The Labour Party acts like a predator on those victims. That is what this is about. This debate has astounded me with the abject lack of passion shown by the Left over this issue. This bill is nothing more than an apology for not doing anything in 9 years. All that Labour members can talk about is McDonald’s. Well no one on this side said anything about workers at McDonald’s. We said something about people who like to frequent McDonald’s but we did not say anything about those who work at McDonald’s. 
I heard Mr Bridges ask over and over during this debate which of the Labour members has had experience of doing a paper round. Not one! Well obviously Mr Hipkins has—he just finished it tonight. He was out on his little Raleigh 20 doing the paper round and supplementing his parliamentary wages. It is good that Mr Hipkins has finally owned up to giving up his paper round over the last couple of months. 
Seriously Part 3 is nothing more than some sort of Draconian buy in. Labour members want to show their political buy in to their mates in the unions—to show they have political commitment to a minimum wage. I tell members that the political commitment to the minimum wage is embedded in the Minimum Wage Act 1983. It is already there so it is nonsense to say that the National Government is against the minimum wage. It is like trying to go back to Gallipoli to fight the same battles but have a different outcome. We cannot change history. The battle about the minimum wage—in fact the battle about class—was won and lost in another era. We cannot turn back the clock to the good old days of the 1951 strike where everybody tattooed on their arm “I was a supporter of the ’51 strike!” and proudly wore that as some sort of badge of honour. This bill is nothing more than a sop. 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I have had enough of those arguments from National speakers. I have had enough of the argument—as if it were a logical argument—that because the previous Labour Government did not pass this measure in its 9 long years it must be bad. Is it within the bounds of possibility that the Labour Government ever felt it had finished its work in any area? Is government of our country not a continuous process? Do circumstances not change and evolve and come to fruition? But somehow because we did not do it in 9 years of Government National thinks that that is reason to vote against it. How is that a logical proposition? Why are we told time and again by Mr Henare that somehow this legislation must go down because Labour did not do it? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: You know it’s nonsense. It’s just a political stunt. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: We have the ever-present Dr Nick Smith who calls out while I am speaking saying that it is a political stunt. It is not a political stunt because in the bad old days when there was a National Government and the minimum wage was $6.12 for an adult and a fraction of that for someone younger this legislation was not needed. The minimum wage was so low in comparison with the average wage that a pamphleteer—even a pamphleteer—would get the minimum wage for stomping around the streets. By the time the National Government fell out of office the minimum wage had increased by 87.5c over that entire 9-year period to reach the grand sum of $7 an hour. What happened then? The Labour Government lifted it over the next 9-year period not by 87.5c an hour but by 500c an hour—by $5. At that point it started to become an issue. 
Members can argue that the Labour Government should have got on to it earlier. Members can argue that it should have been perfect. But hey we are not; we were not. We did not get this done and now there is an incentive for the pamphlet-delivery business owner to make sure that the employment contract stipulates that the worker gets paid less than the minimum wage. It is much easier to pay someone less than the minimum wage when the minimum wage is $12 than when it is $7. It was the Labour Government’s action to steadily increase the minimum wage—by 50c by 75c and sometimes by $1 an hour per annum—that caused this issue to be thrown into relief. Now that it is thrown into relief why do not we as a House of Representatives decide to fix it? If we do not fix it then we will have a situation where in order to pay below the minimum wage employers will simply need to contract out. That is all they will need to do. 
I am sure National members do not believe that the minimum wage should be lowered; indeed they raised it by 50c an hour a few months ago. It was not generous enough but nonetheless it was an increase. So even National members think the minimum wage should be lifted annually—and one hopes that will continue because it did not when National was last in Government. Right at the moment that is their form yet they are failing from their speeches to plug a hole to make sure that minimum wage is paid saying it is a gimmick. For goodness’ sake! It is now a known issue so let us deal with it. It is simply dealt with. The member’s bill appears in my sighting to deal with it well. I think this legislation should receive 120 votes in favour—or 121 or however many there are of us—and not some minority vote in favour. If the majority is going to vote against this bill it means that it thinks that leaving open a known loophole is somehow ideal. It is clearly not; it is clearly wrong. So let us see whether we can get everyone in this Parliament—even Sir Roger Douglas—to vote for this legislation. It is after all something that works against poverty and Roger Douglas says every day of the week that he works against poverty. Well let us see now whether that member will put his money where his mouth is. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Let’s just regulate it out of existence. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: And now the ever-jovial Nick Smith is saying that we will regulate some businesses away. But the whole idea of a minimum wage is to say that employers cannot pay slave labour wages to make a buck in this country; they have to go to a slave labour country and do it there. Nick Smith says he is against poverty but given a chance he will never vote to eliminate it. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I am happy to take a call on new Part 3 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill. I was working in my office when I heard the extraordinary speech by Tau Henare. He quoted Milton Friedman as the go-to guy for minority rights when it comes to industrial relations issues. I thought that I had to get down here and speak in this debate. If Mr Henare thinks that Friedman is the go-to guy then I quote another guy who had a little bit to do with African-American politics in America—just a little bit. I do not claim that he had more to do with it than Friedman as that is up to the Committee to decide. This quotation is from Martin Luther King; members may have heard of him. On 18 March 1968—days before his murder—King told striking sanitation workers in Memphis Tennessee: “it is criminal to have people working on a full-time basis and a full-time job getting part-time income … We are tired of working our hands off and labouring every day and not even making a wage adequate with daily basic necessities of life.” Two years earlier on 18 March 1966 King had called for Congress to boost the minimum wage. He said: “We know of no more crucial civil rights issue facing Congress today than the need to increase the Federal minimum wage and extend its coverage.” He said: “A living wage should be the right of all working Americans”. I ask Mr Tau Henare whom he thinks speaks more loudly for African-American workers in America—Friedman or Martin Luther King? I think that the answer is pretty clear. 
I commend Darien Fenton the member in charge of this bill for bringing it to the House. Despite the rhetoric of National members who are suddenly claiming that they think the minimum wage is great they never raised it when they were in Government apart from the time New Zealand First forced them to as part of its confidence and supply agreement. They never raised it but they now say they support it because they know that public sentiment is behind a minimum wage. But I say that if they really believe that then they will support this part and this legislation. All it says is that all workers in New Zealand are entitled to a minimum level of remuneration for the jobs they do. How unfair is that? How unfair is it to expect that when workers carry out a job they are remunerated at the minimum wage? I think that most people in New Zealand believe that that is the case already. 
Tim Macindoe 
: Why didn’t you make the pledge 2 years ago? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I tell Mr Macindoe that we were so busy passing so much legislation to benefit workers and to undo the damage that the National Government had done in the 1990s that we looked to visionary members of Parliament like Darien Fenton who has a history in the union movement that is unequalled among National members to bring forward legislation that can help the workers of New Zealand. 
I want to know why National members think this is such terrible legislation that not only do they have to oppose it but also members like Tau Henare have to ridicule it in the Chamber. They think this is a joke. The Hon Dr Nick Smith said that Labour thinks we can just regulate poverty away. But I say to that member that a person who is going about a job and who is expecting a fair day’s wages for a fair day’s work does not really care how they get the minimum wage. They just want to get it. He can stand in this Chamber and I am sure he is going to jump up because he has been taking little notes and give a speech on how Labour would regulate poverty away and make it all better by passing legislation. But the people who will benefit from this legislation and who will suddenly get the minimum wage—who now under a loophole do not get it—really do not care how that happens. All they care is about putting food on the table and putting a roof over their kids’ heads. If this legislation will do it then I say to the Hon Dr Nick Smith that those people are probably quite prepared for that to happen. Any kind of argument about regulation or non-regulation does not mean a lot to those on the breadline. There are people on the breadline. There are people who are being contracted out right now. They are not getting the minimum wage because there is a loophole in our legislation—a loophole that Darien Fenton to her credit has picked up has pointed out and has brought to the Chamber. 
The National Party should support this legislation because this is about the livelihood of New Zealand workers. This is about their ability to feed their families. We have a Budget tomorrow and it is the first real test that John Key’s Government has not been able to avoid. That is the first test and it is set down in stone where National has to put up its plan for jobs and for wages. That is a plan that we have not seen so far. We have seen a couple of initiatives here and there and Labour has provided support for those initiatives where we felt it was appropriate but it has not been enough. During the last election campaign Labour said it would do a mini-Budget before Christmas because things had changed so much since the Budget of May last year that any responsible Government should address that situation by introducing a stimulus package before Christmas to boost our economy boost wages support jobs and create jobs at a time when our country needed it most. The National Government decided not to do that and that was absolutely its prerogative. It decided that it could ride it out until May this year. It decided that things were not so bad and it could just leave it all up until May this year when it finally has a Budget. 
The rubber hits the road tomorrow and Labour will be watching very carefully. We will be watching on behalf of all those people whom we represent in this Chamber and those people who would benefit from this legislation which National and ACT have the numbers to vote down tonight. We will be watching on behalf of those people who are currently not getting the minimum wage despite the fact that we have a minimum wage law in this country. Most New Zealanders believe all workers are covered by a minimum wage but they are not despite the fact that their costs have increased their income has decreased and their job security has decreased. Labour will be judging the National Government on that basis. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 I welcome the opportunity to debate Part 2 of the Minimum Wage and Remuneration Amendment Bill because it speaks volumes about the differences between the members opposite and the members on this side of the Chamber. This is really a test about the politics of slogans versus the politics of substance. If I listen to members’ speeches opposite I hear that all we have to do is pass a law through this Parliament and we can have higher wages in New Zealand. All we need to do fellow members is pass a bill and we could have a wage of $20 an hour or $30 an hour. Why not make it $50 an hour? I would love to live in a country where every New Zealander was paid $50 an hour. The idiots opposite would have us believe that all we have to do is pass a bill to make that happen. I have to say that is hollow politics; it is the politics of slogans. It is a cheap idea that if we pass a bill with a few words we can somehow solve the problems of this nation. It is cheap it is untrue and it is the reason that members opposite were rejected at the election. 
The truth is this: if one wants to lift wages one has to lift productivity. What happened to productivity—the real heart of higher wages—over the 9 years of the previous Labour Government? The international records show that over the last 9 years New Zealand rates of productivity improvement were the lowest of any of the 23 members covered in the latest OECD report. What is even more worrying is that through the 1990s when we had a Government that was genuinely committed to raising wages—by lifting productivity; the real way—we saw big gains in productivity in New Zealand. That was a good thing. That is why members on this side of the Chamber who want a high-wage economy are not going to play cynical games with slogans but are prepared to do the hard yards of improving productivity which is really at the heart of increasing wages in our country. 
The members opposite had 9 years to do this; but not only did they have the time—let us look at what Labour said in its policy. If we really believe the speeches of the member opposite why was that legislation not in Labour’s policy at the last election? Those members are not prepared to answer that question. The reason it was not in Labour’s policy at the last election is that they do not actually believe in it. They do not believe in any of this stuff. This is just a political game. I say to members opposite that the main reason why the people of New Zealand rejected them as the Government giving Labour one of its lowest votes in 20 years is that it stopped doing things that mattered. Labour members became solely preoccupied with their own butts and the games of politics rather than the issues that matter to the people of New Zealand. The game of politics had become more important for Labour than the substance of the people whom we in this Chamber are meant to represent. 
Members opposite have asked why in future we should not guarantee ongoing increases for the levels of the minimum wage. I will tell them why: there is an issue equally important that this Parliament should be focused on today. That is the issue of employment. Every member of this Chamber should be focused on keeping New Zealanders in jobs in one of the worst recessions and economic downturns that has occurred in more than 70 years. I say to members opposite that when the Budget is read tomorrow they will see a Government that is committed to doing everything that is humanly possible to keep New Zealanders in work. I challenge members opposite to quit the slogans and concentrate on the substance. Productivity is the key to higher wages. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 13 in the name of Darien Fenton to add new Part 3 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
New Part 3 not agreed to. 
Schedule 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 4 in the name of Darien Fenton to insert new schedule 2 is out of order because it is contingent with amendments already defeated as is the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 13 to insert new schedule 3 for the same reason: that it is contingent with a provision that has been defeated. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the schedule be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Schedule not agreed to. 
Clause 1 Title 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 4 in the name of Darien Fenton to clause 1 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 42; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Clause 1 not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I will report the bill to the House informing it the Committee in rejecting clause 1 has rejected the bill. 
House resumed. 
Bill reported with amendment. 
Report adopted. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: The House having adopted the Committee’s report that it has rejected all the bill’s provisions does not set down the bill for a third reading despite Standing Order 301. 
Resource Management (Climate Protection)  Amendment Bill 
Second Reading 
Debate resumed from 18 June 2008. 
ERIC ROY (National—Invercargill) 
: 
 This is a rare moment of multitasking in the House. Today’s second reading takes us back to June last year when I sought the call and then the House rose after I had occupied a brief 10 seconds of my speech. I say to the House that in terms of process as a presiding officer my speaking on a bill is a little bit unusual but not rare. I will not be presiding over any part of this bill and that is understood by members. 
I understand a fair element of why this bill was perhaps generated by the Greens. They have had a concern that New Zealand has been underperforming for quite some considerable time with regard to its commitments to Kyoto. In fact under the previous administration New Zealand went back faster than any other country in category 1. So I understand the genesis of the Resource Management (Climate Protection) Amendment Bill whereby Jeanette Fitzsimons wanting to be proactive has brought the bill into the House. One understands why the bill was introduced but the questions we have to ask are whether it will actually work how well it will work and whether it will achieve the outcomes we require in order to get some improvement in New Zealand’s profile for greenhouse gas emissions. 
I think that one should categorise where one sits on this issue. I tell new members in the House that I have said a number of times that I have a particular concern about climate change. I believe that the combustion of fossil fuels is increasing the natural cycle of rising temperatures and various other climates changes in relation to that increase. I believe that effect so I have some real concerns that we need to be proactive in this matter. 
I say to the House that I do not think this bill will achieve the outcomes that are desired by the member in charge of it. For a start I have some real difficulties in saying that the resolution of this problem is something we should shovel from central government to local authorities. Given that there are about 76 different local authorities around this country I can see some real opportunity for a variety of applications for this legislation should it be passed by the House. 
The second point I make is that I think the Resource Management Act is the wrong vehicle with which to try to resolve the issues around climate change. The Resource Management Act is being litigated at the moment or going through a kind of negotiated process through consents. At the moment it is a very arduous and expensive course for anybody wanting to gain a consent or to establish a new industry or a new activity. The process is costly and time consuming and it is for that reason that National has introduced into the House a number of amendments to the Act. 
This bill was crafted and delivered to the House before the House had agreed to or started to deal with an emissions trading scheme which actually kind of overrides the necessity for this bill. We in National would say that an emissions trading scheme is a far better mechanism with which to deal with this issue. 
Then there are issues of practicality. One would have to say that in the 76 or whatever number local authorities around the place the level of expertise required in order to deal with considering the implications of climate change in terms of passing consents leaves some opportunities for huge litigation costs and ongoing processes surrounding how those decisions are made. And dare I say it; the quality of decisions from one local authority to the next may be somewhat less than perfect. 
Then there is the issue of timing. When a company or an individual applies for a consent under the Resource Management Act that is the very initial stage of the development and the company or individual will want some certainty around it. If for example the consent process adds another doubt as to whether a project may be advanced the financial backing—and we know a little bit about the financial environment at the moment—becomes much more difficult which adds another reason why it may be difficult to get something off the ground. It will be difficult to find the finance to go forward because there will be some questions about the implications of the consent applied by the local authority if this bill is to be passed. 
Secondly the emissions trading scheme will be another method for those offsets. One does not know just what the implications of the emissions trading scheme will be at the initial stages of a company or an individual going for consent. So there are a lot of questions about timing at the consent stage in terms of the implications of whether something should go forward. 
Then there is the element of how well a decision would be made. I preface my remarks by saying that consent is not something for a regional or local authority to try to develop a national imprint on. In fact it may well be the case that it is not something a national entity should try in order to determine an outcome that has an international repercussion. Let me give members an example. In the fair electorate of Invercargill we have Rio Tinto one of the premier smelters in the world in the respect of producing the finest grade of aluminium in the world. That one hopes will help it to ride out the various difficulties the aluminium smelting industry has at the moment. Prices for aluminium have dropped from about $3000 a tonne to something like $1400 a tonne. 
The illustration I will give will horrify some members. For every tonne of aluminium smelted at Rio Tinto at Tiwai Point 2 tonnes of greenhouse gases are emitted. People will say we should shut down that sucker because that is not what we want at all. If Rio Tinto was to apply for an expansion or something like that then it would be a local decision. It is horrifying but for several reasons it is not. For a start the product Rio Tinto is making aluminium has more offsets than the transport industry by 20 to 1. For every kilogram of aluminium that is used to replace a metal part in a vehicle the payback is 20 times those 2 tonnes in the saving of emissions unless carbon fuel is being combusted to run the vehicle’s engine. 
Secondly if the process because of the local decision was to shut down Rio Tinto’s Tiwai smelter then it would simply move to a category 3 country like China where there are currently 23 different smelters. As I said the profile of the greenhouse gas emissions from Tiwai is 2 tonnes per 1 tonne of aluminium smelted. If we look at China we see that the emissions are about 8½ tonnes per tonne. That is why I say that is not just a local authority or a regional decision for a national problem; it is actually a global decision. 
Hon Simon Power 
: Why are the member’s oratory skills wasted in the Chair? 
ERIC ROY 
: I missed the member’s comment but the point I make is simply that I understand why this bill has come to the House. My response is simply that it is the wrong mechanism and the wrong bill when there are more effective ways to approach the issue. We need to be looking at national standards and emissions trading schemes and engaging in the process on a national basis. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 There is no doubt in my mind that the world is living beyond the environmental means of our planet not just because of climate change but on a variety of other measures. Fisheries are terribly depleted around the world. Habitats for many different species are shrinking not just in Africa but also in our own country. Desertification is spreading at an alarming rate not just in Africa but also in food-producing parts of China and in Australia. Freshwater aquifers are dropping in height because we are taking more water out of them than is being replenished into them. Enormous inland lakes such as Lake Chad and various others around the world are shrinking to a mere fraction of their former size because their water is being used for human purposes before it gets to them. 
The stand-out signal of them all is climate change. The reality is that if the world does not get these problems under control we will see more than just the loss of species as a terrible outcome; we will visit upon future generations a lifestyle and a conflict that is very scary to think about. I am not talking about that happening just to people many generations ahead of us. Our own children will probably be faced with conflicts caused by environmental woes a lack of food a changing climate and flooding. If water levels go up by 1 metre 30 million Bangladeshis will have to move—30 million. It beggars belief. 
John Hayes 
: They’re moving right now because of the flood. 
Hon DAVID PARKER 
: That is a very good point. They are moving right now because of a flood without any sea level rise. In fact I heard an amazing statistic a little while ago and it has stuck in my mind. 
More people have already died in Bangladesh since World War II than died as a consequence of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are writ large in the memories of most people of my age and older as being the worst environmental tragedy that the world has ever suffered. Yet already without climate change or an increase in water levels what has befallen Bangladesh has already been worse than the combined effect of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. A rise of the sea level by a metre would mean that 30 million people have to move somewhere else. That sort of event causes war. 
Climate change obviously has very serious consequences so what can we do about it? The sensible thing would be to price emissions properly. That does affect the decision as to whether we buy something. It changes behaviour. It means that a wooden ladder becomes cheaper than an aluminium ladder because a wooden ladder does not have emissions. At the margin there will be a few more wooden ladders fewer aluminium ladders and fewer emissions in the world. Similarly people would be encouraged to drive cars that have more aluminium than heavy steel. That is another good thing that emissions pricing does. But it works only if we have it and it works only if we have a price that is high enough to change behaviour. At the moment we do not have that because the Government has suspended the emissions trading scheme. The investment signals are not yet in the economy and as a consequence we will not have the same reduction in emissions that we would have with emissions pricing. 
That is where I know Jeanette Fitzsimons stands on this issue. She says we need emissions pricing but in the absence of emissions pricing we have to rely upon regulation. If we do not have emissions pricing or regulation we will not have much at all to force change and reduce emissions and we would have a very unpleasant future. 
We hear National saying we ought not to be world leaders on this issue. New Zealand has never been a world leader on this. We should be ashamed of how much we have been laggards. It is true that in the last 3 years or so we have started to make progress but it is not true that we have been world leaders. At one stage we were the only country in the southern hemisphere that agreed to take on a Kyoto commitment but we have not been world leaders when it came to implementing policies to reduce our emissions. 
It is true that we are world leaders in a little part of it in terms of research into reducing agricultural emissions and so we should be. We are good at improving the efficiency of farming as well as reducing emissions and we will profit from that investment. To say that we should back away from the steps we have already taken—modest though they are in New Zealand because apparently we should not be world leaders—is to abrogate our responsibility. 
The reality is that if a country as rich in endowments as New Zealand—with its low population densities its enormous endowment of resources including land soil water and forests—cannot get it right on environmental issues such as fisheries management or climate change response we must ask ourselves what hope there is for the rest of the world. I am afraid that the reality is quite stark. If a country like New Zealand cannot get these issues right there is very little hope that the world will. That is not a future that this Parliament should countenance. 
If New Zealand does not show how these things can be done we are effectively saying that the world will not. And if the world does not then we do our children their children and all of the children of the world a great disservice not to mention the other species on the planet that will become extinct as a consequence. 
A response to climate change is absolutely necessary. I agree with Eric Roy that the pricing of emissions is probably more important than the measures in this bill but we have not yet got that. The price has to be enough to change behaviour otherwise it is not worth doing; it is just a fig leaf that hides inaction. Unless we have an appropriate price on emissions we must pursue regulatory alternatives. Those regulatory alternatives in New Zealand in respect of matters that effect the environment naturally sit under the Resource Management Act. 
Debate interrupted. 
The House adjourned at 10 p.m.