Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:645;Page:14601] 
1. Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Health 
: Does he expect the health sector to follow the Auditor-General’s procurement guidelines that advise that a public entity should “ensure that any information given to one tenderer that could significantly affect its understanding of the procurement is also conveyed to all other tenderers” and “treat all tenderers in a fair and equitable manner”; and is he satisfied that all tenderers were treated fairly in the community services contract at the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of Health) 
: 
 Yes; yes and I imagine that is a matter currently under review by the director-general’s independent governance report panel. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Has the Minister yet read the email of 10 May 2005 tabled yesterday which shows that chief executive Chris Clarke instructed staff to send Mr Hausmann draft tender documents some weeks before the tender process opened and before any other party received them; and is that acceptable behaviour? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: I repeat that that is a matter likely to be under review by the director-general’s independent governance review panel. 
Russell Fairbrother 
: Is it the Minister’s view that contracts for over $100000 should go to tender and can he provide any examples of where that did not occur? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Yes; I was disturbed to be advised that the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board negotiated a contract with Royston Hospital against legal and management advice and chose to award a $600000 contract without putting it out to tender. I was further concerned to learn that minutes were subsequently changed by the former chairman against legal advice that a former board member who had a clear conflict of interest took part in discussions regarding this contract and that a former board member had not properly declared his interest. I am also aware of an allegation involving the chair being involved in negotiations on a laboratory contract that was subsequently set aside by the Commerce Commission and was later awarded to another provider. 
Barbara Stewart 
: Is the Minister acting to ensure that this time and money - wasting deviation from tendering guidelines cannot be repeated by any other district health board; if not why not? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: The purpose of acting as I have done is in part to prevent the further wastage of public money such as that which has been spent on legal and—I understand—public relations firms in relation to the shambles at the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board. I imagine that all district health boards although there is no similar situation that I am aware of will have great cognisance of these events and will take care henceforth. 
Sue Kedgley 
: Did the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board have in place a conflict of interest register and were all board members required to declare any potential conflict of interest at the start of every board meeting as other district health boards require board members to do; if so does he believe that the alleged conflicts of interest around the tendering of contracts at the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board were a result of gross negligence or some worse offence? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Yes it is standard practice for district health boards to maintain a conflict of interest register and the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board in principle did so. However it appears that not all board members had kept their entries current and up to date because in the case of Royston Hospital at least one member of the board had not listed his or her interests in Royston Hospital on that register. The office of the Auditor-General was also very critical of the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board for what it considered to be a lack of detail and rigour in the board’s conflict management policy. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: How can the Minister stand in the House and say that every tenderer was treated fairly when the email of 24 May 2005 tabled yesterday in which Mr Hausmann received the confidential draft documents proposed changes to benefit his company a preference that was offered to no other tenderer in the process; and is that what the Minister would expect of someone about to be appointed to that very district health board? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Perhaps the member did not hear my earlier answer but I have not taken a position on the question of fact to which he refers. I said “Yes” to the principle and I referred the matter of fact to the director-general. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Why did he answer a second “yes” to the primary question referring to whether all tenderers were being treated fairly and does that show that he has yet to read the 27 May 2005 email tabled yesterday—recovered by forensic analysis in London—in which the chief executive agreed to alter the tender documents on the terms proposed by Mr Hausmann at a time when no other potential bidder had that opportunity; and is that consistent with the Auditor-General’s guidelines? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: That question comes in two parts; let me deal with them separately. In respect of the question about the two “yes” answers I note there are two issues of principle in the primary question and the “yes” answers applied respectively to each of them. In respect of the second part of the question that is a matter for the director-general’s review report which I look forward to receiving now that the injunction that was sought by chairman Atkinson and his board has been lifted by the commissioner. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is the Minister aware that in May 2005 when Mr Hausmann's appointment was going through the Cabinet process Mr Hausmann was colluding with the chief executive through emails to get favourable conditions put in the tender document and is that what the Minister agreed to as “managing any conflict of interest”? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: I note the member opposite is not quite so courageous about the use of words like “colluding” outside the House. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is against the Standing Orders to suggest that a member lacks courage and I think when that is given as the answer to a supplementary question it certainly cannot be regarded as addressing the question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Perhaps the Minister would like to add to his answer in a way that is consistent with the Standing Orders. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Yes Madam Speaker. I think it is interesting that the member has not cared to repeat similar language outside the House. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is the Minister aware that 9 months earlier Mr Hausmann had met with senior Ministers Cullen King Dyson and Swain for a briefing on the home support sector and as the scale of Mr Hausmann’s involvement in the health sector would have been made clear to them did any of those Ministers express concern about the appointment of Mr Hausmann to the Hawke’s Bay District Health Board at a time when his company wanted to tender for multimillion-dollar contracts with that very same district health board? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: To the best of my information Mr Hausmann was at the time a director of one of the largest private health care providers in New Zealand. It is neither surprising nor inappropriate that Ministers would have general conversations with such a person about health care policy or provision—or is that the best that members opposite can do? I seek leave to table several Ministry of Health reports and Cabinet papers pertaining to the appointment of Mr Hausmann in which he fully declares his potential conflict of interest and the ministry provides advice as to how it could be managed. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: I seek leave—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Points of order are heard in silence. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: —to table a transcript of a Radio New Zealand National interview this morning where former Chairperson Atkinson interestingly confirmed that the supposedly secret emails— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? [ 
Interruption 
] This is the last time I will warn members not to comment during points of order. The reason is that it is very difficult to hear what is happening if they do. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. We cannot help but notice that this afternoon you have allowed Mr Cunliffe to give an extensive description of what he is attempting to table. This appears to be quite new because we notice that when we try to table stuff almost the moment we utter the words “I seek leave to table …” the leave is put and no explanation is able to be given. So if this is new we would like to know that and we would certainly like to have a consistent approach applied to us. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Thank you. I have warned members that long explanations when they are tabling documents are unnecessary. However it is necessary to be able to identify the document and that is what I listened for. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Point of order— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry but we have not completed the point of order to table those documents. There was an interruption— 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Speaking to the point of order Madam Speaker— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Speaking to this point of order? 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: The issue I want to raise is that I heard the Minister say that he was seeking to table an interesting—and then the hubbub ensued and I do not know what the interest was about— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Precisely! 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Could you ask him to seek the leave again so we can give a considered decision? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Concisely please. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: I seek leave to table a Radio New Zealand National transcript that confirms that Chairperson Atkinson confirmed— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I believe that the Minister also said that he was seeking leave to table some Cabinet documents. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well he did that. He has already done that. [ 
Interruption 
] I am sorry; please be seated. That was the first point of order. That was when I said that if people constantly interrupt they run the risk of not hearing what is said. There were two points of order. The first as I understood it sought to table Cabinet documents and the second a transcript. The first had no objection; for the second there was objection. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: So is the Minister saying in his last comment that as Mr Hausmann and Mr Clarke communicated about confidential tender documents before the date that Mr Hausmann’s appointment to the board became effective that excuses the behaviour of Chris Clarke the chief executive in making those documents available for one tenderer 2 months before the tender was out? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: No and I wish the member better luck with his listening skills on further questions. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No sorry. Would the Minister please withdraw that final comment. That is exactly what creates disorder. Just address the question. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: I withdraw that comment.