Cunliffe David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Cunliffe David: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:676;Page:21493] 
3. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: By what percentage did GDP per capita fall between the June 2008 year and the June 2011 year? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 If the member will bear with me on just a bit of detail I have interpreted this question to mean a real production-based measure of GDP which is the one most commonly quoted. On this basis the 2011 year was 3.6 percent below that of 2008 but the story does have some nuances. Per capita GDP actually peaked back in 2007 and then started sliding before the global recession because under the previous Government New Zealand went into recession well ahead of the rest of the world. The big decline in per capita GDP happened in the year to June 2009 when real per capita GDP fell by 3.3 percent—that is before the current Government had delivered its first Budget. Since our first Budget in 2009 the growth has stabilised. It is pleasing to see that the economy has expanded in eight of the past nine quarters and that GDP has grown by 3.5 percent over the past 2 years. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table this representation of Statistics New Zealand figures which show that GDP has decreased— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: What is the source of the document please? 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Statistics New Zealand. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is it a photocopy of something? 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: It is a graph. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am trying to sort out who has compiled this document. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: It is Statistics New Zealand’s data which is represented in a graph. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I asked who has compiled the document not the source of the data. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: The research unit has used Microsoft— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document from the party research unit. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: How much money has the Government borrowed over the last 3 years? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I could not give the total figure off the top of my head but it certainly would be well in excess of $20 billion. That has been driven by two things. One is the recession which began under that member’s party and it was then compounded by the need to borrow for the Christchurch earthquake. Of course the important thing is to have a plan for the path back to surplus and we have a plan in place. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table these Statistics New Zealand numbers which show that the actual amount of debt—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members will be silent. When I get to my feet the member will resume his seat and other members will be silent. I have developed a procedure whereby members identify the source of a document before citing the information in it so that we can quickly determine whether leave should be sought to table the document. Seeking leave is not an opportunity to convey information while members are on their feet; seeking leave is about whether a document should be tabled. First the House needs to know the source of the document.  
Hon David Cunliffe 
: The source of the estimate of $37 billion— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat and he may ask a supplementary question if he wishes to. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: How many fewer jobs are there in New Zealand than when his Government came to office according to the latest National Employment Indicator? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: According to the standard for measuring jobs which is the household labour force survey there are more jobs now. One reason is that we have been able to stabilise the drop in per capita GDP. If I can point out to the member per capita GDP fell during Labour’s final term— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have just dealt fairly severely with the Hon David Cunliffe and although the Minister may not have liked the question and may have criticism about the statistics upon which the question is based the answer should at least start at the question asked not ignore it totally. The question asked about employment figures as indicated by an employment indicator survey. The Minister is perfectly at liberty to indicate his concerns about that data but to ignore it totally is not on. The Hon Bill English to answer the question asked. I am happy to have the Hon David Cunliffe repeat it if it has been forgotten. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Mr Speaker I answered the question and I will repeat it in case you did not hear it. According to the standard for measuring the total— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members may wish questions were different from what they are but I will invite the Hon David Cunliffe to repeat his question. The Minister may certainly have views of the particular statistics but the answer should at least start from the point of the question being asked not ignore it totally and cite other data without any reference whatsoever to the question asked. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: How many fewer jobs are there in New Zealand than when his Government came to office according to the latest National Employment Indicator? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I do not know the answer to that question because the National Employment Indicator is a partial measure of jobs in the economy. According to the standard measure there are more jobs than ever. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table data from the National Employment Indicator indicating— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am on my feet; is there something wrong with the member’s eyes? The House will come to order and just settle a little. The member knows that we do not table statistics that are released by Statistics New Zealand because members have those available to them. Seeking leave to table documents to try to score political points is not the purpose of the Standing Order. I invite the member to read the Standing Order if he is going to seek leave to table documents. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is this a point of order? 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Mr Speaker I seek your guidance; I am not trifling with your ruling in any way. You have held that the information is freely available to members but we are in the situation where the Minister of Finance has just told the House that he does not know the answer to this important— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am on my feet. That does not mean that the information is not readily available to members and we are simply not going to go back to tabling statistics releases and press statements or press releases and newspaper clippings. It just wastes too much time in this House. Question time gives members the chance to question Ministers. If the member does not like the way the answers refer to statistics he can ask questions about why the statistics are inferior if he believes that his statistics are superior. The question can be expanded in that area because that field has already been covered. Rather than trying to table documents question time is about asking questions—why Ministers may hold certain views of things. It is not about trying to table documents. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am reluctant to drag this out and this will be the last comment I make on this matter. But it is of course possible for Ministers of the Crown to either genuinely or conveniently say they do not know the answer to any number that does not support their case— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no. We will not have any more of that. Does the member have a further supplementary question? If he does not we will go on to question— 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I have a supplementary question. Given that before the last election his leader was claiming that New Zealand had a growth problem and not a debt problem and given that he has now saddled the country with $37 billion of extra Government debt with no growth to show for it has not New Zealand developed now both a growth problem and a debt problem through 3 years of his Government muddling through? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Of course we are dealing with both growth and debt in somewhat challenging circumstances. If we had followed that member’s advice for the last 3 years we would have probably about twice as much debt as we have now.