Walker Holly: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeWalker Holly: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 08 May 2014. Volume:698;Page:17682. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]4.HOLLY WALKER (Green) to theMinister of Immigration: Has he discussed issues relating to his immigration portfolio at Cabinet club events; if so on how many occasions?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister of Immigration): I have no ministerial responsibility for Cabinet club events. I attend a number of events in my capacity as a National MP and I discuss a range of issues and canvass my role as an MP from time to time. I also discuss matters that relate to all my portfolios including immigration.Holly Walker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This question was set down on notice and accepted by the Clerk’s Office—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! It is a question that is a marginal question. It has been allowed through after some discussion between the member who lodged the question and the Clerk. In these circumstances I am giving a fairly wide leeway to the way in which a Minister answers such a question and on this occasion he has addressed the question to my satisfaction.Holly Walker: Did he ever meetDonghua Liu at a Cabinet club event; if so did they discuss the immigrant investor category?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: In answer to the first part of that question no.Holly Walker: Does he think thatDonghua Liu and others who paid thousands of dollars to meet him at meetings of the Cabinet club Chinese branch—Mr SPEAKER: Order! That statement has just been denied by the Minister in the answer to the previous question.Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member said that the gentleman paid the money to meet him—paid the money—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! I will allow the member to ask the question again if I have missed it but if I recall the answer given by the Minister the member is now effectively disputing the answer that was just given by the Minister.Holly Walker: I can rephrase the question. Does he think that anyone who has paid thousands of dollars to meet him at meetings of the Cabinet club Chinese branch has done so because he was a National list MP or because he was the Minister of Immigration?Mr SPEAKER: I will allow the Minister to answer that in as far as there is ministerial responsibility.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I have no responsibility for Cabinet club events.Metiria Turei: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question was not whether he was responsible. The question was did he understand himself to be attending those events in his ministerial capacity in the context of those meetings? That is within his purview to answer.Mr SPEAKER: Yes and—Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee.Hon Gerry Brownlee: The Minister made it very clear at the start that he attends a lot of meetings as a National member of Parliament. That should have given the questioner a fair guide. I think we have got to be very careful that we do not end up using question time on I would say the collision that there is between the executive and the House of Representatives and effectively have a question time that regularly impugns the reputation of members of Parliament. We do not get for example to ask whether it is appropriate for a political party to have a cash for clemency arrangement with Dotcom.Grant Robertson: The issue here I think is that the primary question was allowed and it did make reference to the Minister and Cabinet club in the question. The supplementary question that Holly Walker asked—the Minister has responsibility for himself for his actions as a Minister—was: when he was at a particular event was he there as the Minister? To just get up and say: “I don’t have responsibility for that.” is not I think an acceptable answer. He could get up and say: “When I’m there I don’t think I’m the Minister.” and that would be him answering in accordance with both the question that is here and his responsibility but just saying that he has no responsibility when you have accepted the primary question I do not think can stand.Hon Gerry Brownlee: The first point is that the Minister said he had no responsibility for Cabinet club arrangements. He has no more responsibility for arrangements that are made by National Party branches around the country than Grant Robertson does for Labour Party branches around the country nor does he have any greater accountability than Grant Robertson would for the use of the war room on the third floor for Labour Party campaigning purposes. There are lots of areas where these things can be questioned. There is only one side of the House that has to answer the questions and the Standing Orders should not be used to work in a way that impugns the reputation of members of Parliament who are simply—[Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am going to ask the member to continue with the point of order. I am having trouble hearing it now because—[Interruption] Order! If the member wishes to stay for the balance of question time she can also be quiet when I am on my feet.Hon Gerry Brownlee: The point is that it would be an odd thing if Ministers in particular did not speak about their portfolios when they are talking to groups of New Zealanders regardless of the circumstances. I am speaking for example tomorrow at lunchtime to a group who I know have paid to be there. I am not being paid. The National Party is not getting any money from it but the group itself is getting it. The problem here is—Hon Trevor Mallard: That’s your job.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I gave a warning to the left-hand side of my House that if there was discussion during a point of order a member would be ejected from this Chamber. It is very close to that on this occasion. I want to hear this point of order.Grant Robertson: Point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: I am hearing a point of order Mr Robertson.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Interestingly in his interjection the Hon Trevor Mallard made a valid point when he said: “That’s your job.” Politicians speak about politics. I am not responsible for the organisation that has invited me to be there tomorrow but I am delighted to be there and to have the opportunity to give a very popular political message—something that troubles our opponents.Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Is the member speaking to the point of order?Grant Robertson: I am. I have two points I wanted to make. The first of those is that there will be disorder in the House when a person taking a point of order introduces material that is not a point of order and that makes false accusations about another party. So although I understand your frustration at the noise it is caused by the person taking the point of order. The second point I want to make in response to Mr Brownlee’s point of order is that there is a world of difference between going to speak at an engagement as a Minister in this way and something called the Cabinet club—or clubs sorry for those who do not understand; Cabinet clubs—that implies that they are a Minister. You have clearly accepted the question on the basis that there is something about the name “Cabinet clubs” that means that a Minister has some level of responsibility for that. Mr Woodhouse should at least answer the question rather than simply say that he does not have responsibility.Mr SPEAKER: The first point that I would make to the member is that the question has been accepted because it asks the member about discussions he had relating to his ministerial responsibility not specifically the attendance at any Cabinet club or other fund-raising event. The difficulty I now have is that it is so long ago since the question was asked and answered that I think to clarify the matter we will go back to that stage. But before I allow that to happen I say that at the time I was relatively comfortable with the way the Minister did answer that question in light of this difficult line that members face here in determining their role as a Minister where they have ministerial responsibilities and the role that every member of this House has as a member of a political party. All members are involved to some extent in concerns around the funding of their political parties. Where that crosses the line is a difficult and grey area but I will go back to listening to the question carefully and listening to the answer and then we will move forward.Holly Walker: Does he think that attendees who paid thousands of dollars to meet him—Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In this circumstance that is an imputation that is completely unacceptable.Metiria Turei: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have already accepted this question as legitimate when you first allowed it through. You have asked my colleague to repeat that question. It is not appropriate for Gerry Brownlee to now contest your ruling that she now be allowed to repeat her question.Mr SPEAKER: I think it is a very fair point that has been raised but I do warn the member that in making a statement like that within a question it gives fairly wide licence to the Minister who is then going to answer the question. Holly Walker could we get the question completed.Holly Walker: Does he think that attendees who paid thousands of dollars to meet him—Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am now going to ask you to refer to the Standing Order that makes that question in order. I am not disputing issues about whether the primary question is valid but this is an important point. It would be like us asking whether the people who pay thousands of dollars to go to the Green Party conference etc. are gaining—Hon Members: Ha ha!Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well they might laugh—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. That question according to the Standing Orders is not strictly in order but most questions that are asked in this House day after day do not adhere strictly to the Standing Orders. I have allowed thequestion to be asked. It is to be repeated and then we can move forward by listening to the answer from the Minister.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Standing Orders are there for a number of reasons and one of those reasons is to protect members. Although I accept that often questions do stray beyond the strict bounds of Standing Order 377(1) through to (5) in this case because the attempt of the questioner is to inflict reputational damage—which is completely undue—I think it is appropriate that the question is confined to the parameters of the Standing Orders.Holly Walker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: No I do not need assistance. I have a lot of sympathy for the point the member is making but he could consider where this matter has got to in the House. I listened to the question. I allowed it in the first place. On many occasions I go back and look at theHansard subsequently and when you look at the supplementary questions that have been asked I perhaps should have ruled them out of order. In this case I let it through on the first occasion and to progress this matter I have invited the member—having let it through on the first occasion—to repeat it. That is where the matter lies. It may upset Mr Brownlee but that is the way we are going to move forward on this matter.Holly Walker: Does he think attendees who paid thousands of dollars to meet him at meetings of the Cabinet club Chinese branch did so because he was a National list MP or because he was the Minister of Immigration?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The questioner asks for an opinion about events over which I have no ministerial responsibility and therefore it would be inappropriate of me to offer such an opinion.Hon Trevor Mallard: Has any member of his office staff paid for by Ministerial Services attended any Cabinet club meetings with him? And you have got to say yes.Mr SPEAKER: Order! That is unacceptable. The question has been asked; we will listen for the response.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I do not have the information with me to answer that question but if the member would like to put the question down in writing I would be very happy to give him an answer.Hon Trevor Mallard: Has he fulfilled his obligations under paragraph 2.53 of theCabinet Manual by attending a chapter of a group that charges recent immigrants more than long-term New Zealand citizens?Mr SPEAKER: In so far as there is ministerial responsibility the Hon Michael Woodhouse.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I must confess I am not sure what the member is asking but I have every confidence that I have complied with all aspects of theCabinet Manual.Mr SPEAKER: Question No. 5 Phil Twyford. Oh supplementary question Holly Walker.Holly Walker: We are only just getting started Mr Speaker. Was it wise for him as Minister of Immigration to attend a Cabinet club Chinese branch event given the risk outlined on the radio this morning by the former president of the Chinese Association that many new migrants may think it is possible to buy influence with Government Ministers because that is how business is done in their home countries?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Mr Speaker—[Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am just waiting for a bit of a—the Hon Michael Woodhouse.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I will repeat my answer to the primary question which was that I attend a number of events in a variety of forums wearing my hat as amember of Parliament or as a member of a party and in my ministerial responsibility. As a guest I generally do not have any knowledge about the circumstances that lead to the other people in those events being there so in that sense it would be inappropriate of me to offer an opinion.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Can the Minister say whether he has ever attended a meeting at the well-known Coatesville Mansion where he might have discussed with the occupant the possibility of accepting an enormous amount of cash not only to give him immigration preference or citizenship but also to give him clemency against the law?Gareth Hughes: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That question had no relevance to the primary question and it had not been introduced in any of the answers.Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Trevor Mallard.Hon Trevor Mallard: I thought that the point of order would be another one. I thought you would have ruled the question out because of course it refers to a matter before the court. Mr Banks is the person who got the bag of money.Mr SPEAKER: I am not ruling the question out.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I can give the member and this House an absolute guarantee that that has not happened nor is it ever going to happen in the foreseeable future—unlike other members of this House.Holly Walker: If he is not engaged in cash for access how come people who cannot pay to meet him like Murdoch Stephens who runs the Doing Our Bit campaign to double New Zealand’s refugee quota cannot get a meeting with him despite repeated requests and people who pay thousands of dollars through the Cabinet club can?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I am not aware of whether or not Mr Stephens has sought a meeting but I am in reasonably frequent dialogue with him on social media and I am very happy to hear from him in the future. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: I am just waiting for the Hon Annette King.Holly Walker: Would he agree that one way to help protect him from the awkward situation he has found himself in today would be for the Government to introduce a ministerial disclosure regime like that proposed by the Green Party under which Ministers would report on whom they discuss Government policy with in the interests of transparency and fairness?Mr SPEAKER: Again in so far as there is ministerial responsibility.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I refute the preface to the question. I am in no such awkward situation and need no such protection.Holly Walker: How can he credibly argue that he did not attend these events in his ministerial capacity when he is the Minister of Immigration and he met with would-be migrants keen to discuss immigration policy at an event called the Cabinet club?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I repeat: I speak to a number of people in a number of forums—at the supermarket at the service station at the airport in Cabinet club meetings and in public meetings. They are interested in articulating their views on immigration policy and I am happy to hear from them.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Given that he is now answering questions on the Cabinet club does he ever think it likely that a Green member of Parliament would be a welcome speaker at such an event?Mr SPEAKER: Order! Now that has stepped across the boundary. There is no ministerial responsibility. [Interruption] Order! Question No. 5 Phil Twyford. [Interruption] Order! I have called Mr Twyford.