Woodhouse MichaelHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National): Well I must compliment Minister Twyford. It took a while but we got there. We now know that several hundred thousand 38-year-old properties—in fact they could well be only 18 years old because the 1978 standard was in place until 2001. There were some very modern and pretty well-insulated homes that were built in 2001 and what we now know is that for no other reason than the Minister has decided that an 82 percent thermal block is not enough their owners are going to be forced to pay several thousand dollars in heating and insulation.One of the things that I will say and it's I think an encouragement for the 52nd Parliament is that we have in this debate stayed clear of some of the unfortunate hyperbole that permeated this bill in its first and second readings and the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill last year. What we do know is that the worst houses in this country are the ones without any insulation ceiling or floor that were constructed prior to the 1978 standard being put in place. But the fact that it might be 38 years old—and I'm a bit older than that—doesn't make it bad. There are some perfectly adequate 38-year-old cars on the road that are still performing adequately their task. Indeed the regulation that is in place right now—the Residential Tenancies (Smoke Alarms and Insulation) Regulations—requires those insulation materials to be of a reasonable standard to be fit for purpose. But that's not going to be good enough.We now have an estimate of $87 million for the Housing New Zealand bill and the taxpayers' bill. That hasn't been verified because it isn't part of any regulatory impact statement that's on the Table for us to examine but I do acknowledge that the Minister may have got that since we last debated this. But heaven knows what the unnecessary burden on mum and dad landlords is going to be when they find out that their houses—that could be as recent as 16 years old—are not going to be good enough for this Minister.Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: In the dinner break I got the calculator out. Thanks to the confirmation by the Minister we now know that the regulation that would be passed by the passage of this legislation will require all homes constructed prior to 2001—so only 16 years old—and that have not had in that period of time a substantial refit will be required to upgrade perfectly good insulation in the ceiling and underfloor at a cost of—well the Minister suggests between $3000 and $5000. I think the number is probably closer to $5000 than $3000 depending on the ability of the owner to put insulation over the top of in the case of the ceiling rather than replace.He offered an estimate of the costs on the taxpayer for the Housing New Zealand upgrade of $87 million. Now my basic math to that suggests that at $5000 per dwelling that would insulate only 17000 of New Zealand's State houses to the new standard.Hon Members: How many?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I haven't been able—17 one-seven of the 66000-odd houses that we have—in the time available to ascertain the proportion of the State housing stock that was constructed prior to 2001 but I would be almost certain that it would be far far more than 17000. I wonder if the Minister has made what would be a reasonably elementary but understandable mistake in assuming that the upgrade would be for pre-1978 houses. Indeed that standard prevailed until 2001 and therefore—if indeed his commitment to the regulation is correct and I've no reason to doubt it—all of the houses constructed private or public prior to 2001 would be required to be upgraded to the 2008 standard.I simply ask the Minister two things. Firstly in respect to the State housing stock how many of those houses in Housing New Zealand ownership Government ownership were constructed prior to 2001 and is it considerably more as I suspect than 17000? Because if it is the cost to the taxpayer is more likely to be 2½ or three times that amount as we head towards I don't know 40000 maybe 50000 of the houses that are in Housing New Zealand ownership constructed prior to that period.The more pertinent thing I think for the many mum and dad landlords that are listening tonight who have just found out that they are going to get a bill sent to them by the Labour Government for about $5000 in a requirement to upgrade perfectly adequate insulation with thermal properties pretty close to but not exactly the same as what we've got now—how many landlords own properties constructed prior to 2001 and will be required to pay that $5000 bill that the Labour Government remember says won't be passed on to tenants? So the other cost to the Crown is going to be increased income-related rent subsidies—Hon Amy Adams: That's right and accommodation supplement.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: —and accommodation supplements. That's right Mrs Adams—very very learned in this matter. But the bill to the Crown is going to be several hundred million dollars more than just the cost of the upgrade of the State housing stock. But ultimately the first payers of that are going to be the mum and dad landlords. I would like to know how many of them—maybe 100000 maybe more—have dwellings constructed prior to 2001; that is possibly half a billion dollars of taxpayer funds into these regulations. The public have a right to know what we are debating tonight.