Walker Holly: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Walker Holly: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 22 August 2012. Volume:683;Page:4620. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
2. 
HOLLY WALKER (Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What comparative impact has Working for Families had on poverty rates for the children of working parents and the children of beneficiaries using the fixed line measure of 60 percent of median income adjusted for housing costs? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 The 2011 household incomes report uses 1998 as the relevant reference year. According to the particular measure that the member has chosen there was a fall in poverty rates as Working for Families was rolled out from 2004 to 2007. For the two groups the member has referred to on the after housing costs fixed line measure child poverty rates fell in working families from around 16 percent to 8 percent and for those in beneficiary families the rate remained about the same. Our priority of course is to focus on those in persistent deprivation because the poverty line measures do not adequately measure those who genuinely suffer persistent deprivation and all the problems that go with that. 
Holly Walker 
: Given that Working for Families has halved poverty rates for the children of working parents but done nothing for the children of beneficiaries leaving 70 percent of them in poverty is he satisfied that the Government is doing enough to meet the basic needs of every child? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: On the second question yes. Through one of the more significant recessions we have seen in many decades the Government has protected the income levels of those in our lowest-income households. But the first part of the question I think demonstrates the difference in views about how to deal with poverty. The Government is focusing on mobility—that in fact a lot of families who at some times and in some periods experience low incomes actually get out of that situation. The in-work tax credit is designed to encourage people from benefits into work and reward them for making the choice of going to work because that is the best decision they can make to improve the incomes of their household and their children. 
Holly Walker 
: What if a parent cannot find work? Do their children still have the same basic needs for food shelter warmth and clothing that they would have if their parents were working? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Yes their children do have basic needs that ought to be met and that is why the Government has throughout the last 4 years since the beginning of the recession in 2008 protected the real value of the incomes of all our low-income households. But I would repeat for the member that those levels of income are part of the story. The other part of the story is to maintain the ability for families and individuals to move on to higher incomes. The analysis of New Zealanders’ time on low incomes shows that a relatively small number stay on low incomes for a long time and even of those who are on low incomes only a proportion suffer the symptoms of persistent deprivation which is the worst aspect of poverty. 
Holly Walker 
: Is it a child’s fault if their parent cannot find work? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Hon Bill English in so far as he has any ministerial responsibility. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: No. 
Holly Walker 
: Since children have the same basic needs regardless of the income status of their parents will he support the Green Party bill to replace the in-work tax credit with a payment for all children who need it and eliminate a blatant discrimination against some of our poorest children? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: No we will not. In fact on the issue of discrimination this case has been to every tribunal it can go to and no one has found that the difference in payment is discriminatory. We will stick by the policy that has been in place for some time put in place by the previous Labour Government—that is maintaining the in-work tax credit. 
Holly Walker 
: Is his Government really committed to ensuring that every child thrives; if so will he take an investment approach to children like they have in the Netherlands where early investment in children saves billions of dollars and produces some of the best child outcomes in the OECD? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Yes we do believe that every child should thrive and we believe that we have about the right balance of fairness and incentive for households that are on low income where we would all like to see children face better prospects. I give some advice to the member though. I think that quoting examples from Europe may become less relevant as Europe starts dismantling their very generous systems that they have had in place because generally across Europe they cannot afford to maintain those systems. 
Holly Walker 
: I seek leave to table a report prepared by Rowe Davies Research for Every Child Counts released today entitled  
The Netherlands Study: Learning from the Netherlands to improve outcomes for New Zealand’s children 
. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.