Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:609;Page:6632] 
5.  
GERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National—Ilam) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: Will he be advising the Government that ownership or title to the seabed and foreshore should for the best interests of Maori be held by the Crown; if not why not? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 I will be working with my Government colleagues in the best interests of the country to find a balance between Maori customary rights and the ability of all New Zealanders to access the foreshore and seabed. The goal is to ensure that on the way to nationhood we get a positive result. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: When he and his Government colleagues meet with the Maori Council next week to discuss this issue will he be attending that meeting as a Government Minister representing the Crown and the Crown’s interests or as a Maori member of Parliament representing Maori interests in being able to claim the foreshore and seabed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: We will firstly meet with more than the Maori Council. I cannot avoid being a Maori and I am also a member of a collective Cabinet. I will be at the meeting as both. 
Mita Ririnui 
: Is he confident that the interests of all New Zealanders will be accommodated in the Government’s process for dealing with this matter? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Yes I am confident that in working through this process we will reconcile Maori customary rights with all New Zealanders’ ability to access the foreshore and seabed. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Minister agree with the statement by Moana Jackson a lawyer who gave his view on this matter when he said:“To remove the right to title is actually to deny the customary right. If I can give an example a person who wants to put down a new lawn on their quarter acre section can only exercise their right if they have title to the land. If they don’t have title to the land then they have to get permission from the landlord and that is what Margaret Wilson is obscuring.”; does he agree with that point of view and is that point of view shared by his Maori colleagues? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Mr Jackson is a well-respected Maori and has a skill that a lot of people in the Opposition do not have. Certainly he is welcome to his opinion and at the moment we are working through our opinion collectively in this Government. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have been asking questions on this issue all week. All that we have had is a whole lot of obfuscation and evasion. I have put to the Minister precisely the legal position asking him not what he answered but whether he agrees with that legal position—yes or no. Surely we can have an answer on that score. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member asked the question and the Minister said the Government was working through it. That addresses that question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I did not ask him for the Government’s view. I was particular about asking the Minister for his view. I do not want to be told that the Government’s answer is adequate in this case. I asked him for his view as the Minister responsible for Maori affairs and I think we deserve an answer. For you to say that the Government is working through it and it is the Government’s view is not what I asked him. I asked him what his view is and I think this House should have an answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister is a member of the Government and he can address the question in that way. 
Rodney Hide 
: Does he agree that legislation is needed to ensure that the ownership of the foreshore and seabed remains with the Crown or is he not prepared to tell the House the answer to that? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The Government has formulated a group consisting of senior Cabinet Ministers and members of the Maori caucus to discuss that very issue. 
Mita Ririnui 
: How will the Government reassure Maori that their issues will be addressed? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: One of our Government’s greatest strengths has been its willingness to engage with Maori and to enter into dialogue with people from all sectors across the community and this issue is no exception—end of story. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does he agree with the statement by the Maori Fisheries Commission chairman Maui Solomon who says: “I think it is a bit contradictory—I think it is confusing actually—to say that you know there is going to be a clarification that ownership rests with the Crown but Maori rights customary rights are going to be preserved.”? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: If Mr Solomon was the chairman of the Maori Fisheries Commission I could understand that question. He is not the chairman of the Maori Fisheries Commission. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I concede that this is one of those occasions where I have been caught out by that sharp Minister. Mr Edwards has earned his dollar today. I seek leave of the House to ask the question again without the wrong address being given to Maui Solomon. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will go halfway with the member. I will ask the Minister to assume that Mr Solomon is not the chairman of the Maori Fisheries Commission. Could he give an answer to the question? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: That is his opinion. One thing with this Government and this Maori caucus is that we respect the opinion of all Maori from Mr Jackson to Mr Solomon. 
Rodney Hide 
: Does he stand by his statement in this House yesterday that he as a Maori has customary rights to the seabed and foreshore not enjoyed by non-Maori; will he tell this House what he believes those rights are or is that something he is prepared to say only on a marae? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I do not recall saying that. I say that some Maori have married Pakeha and some Pakeha have married Maori so we have to work out where everybody gets a fair share and a fair say in this and cut the marae business out. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have a situation where the Minister cannot remember that he said in the House: “It has been my understanding that Maori have customary rights.” and then went on to speak about himself having those rights. Now he is saying that he cannot answer the question because he cannot remember saying that. Having reminded him of what he said I suggest he be asked to say whether he stands by that and to clarify that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the Minister might have said that at the start of the answer but then he went on to address the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With the greatest of respect to hear a little diatribe on the framework of this country and on the question of keeping away from the marae from the Minister did not address the question he was asked in any way shape or form. He was asked whether he stands by his words of yesterday. He denied his words of yesterday and left the whole thing alone completely. We have no answer as far as that Minister goes. I say to you Mr Speaker that I have spent some time in the last few weeks watching two Parliaments in operation: Australia’s which is on television and the British Parliament. Frankly this Parliament is an abiding disgrace when it comes to question time. You might have a different view but I am giving you mine. Over there the Ministers answer questions which are not questions on notice. These Ministers are given 4 hours’ notice and still they do not answer questions. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let me just say that I listen to the Australian Parliament too and very rarely is a supplementary question ever heard at all. The Minister has 3 minutes to answer a question and the questioner has about 40 seconds to ask it. That is an issue that every Government of Australia states it will change when it comes into office and never does. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I seek leave that we adopt the Australian practice at question time. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do want to challenge your ruling because this is outrageous. There are two standards in operation for this Minister. That can in no way— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Rodney Hide 
: I am not sitting down— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member sits or he goes. 
Rodney Hide 
: No I want to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member leaves. 
Rodney Hide 
: OK. I will leave. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member leaves. 
Rodney Hide 
: There is no point here— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: A member cannot challenge the Speaker’s ruling. The member will please leave. 
Rodney Hide 
: There’s no point in asking questions here. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will name the member if he says another word. The member will please leave. 
Rodney Hide 
: There is still no point— 
Question time interrupted.