Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hide Rodney: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:621;Page:16884] 
6.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: What responsibility does she take for her travel arrangements and her police escorts in New Zealand? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Such operational matters are handled by the police Government drivers and any other relevant staff. 
Rodney Hide 
: Has the Prime Minister heard of her Government’s taxpayer-funded road safety campaign which encourages passengers travelling in a speeding car to “speak up to slow him down” “speak up and live; shut up and die” and “stop him speeding; put your foot down” or did that campaign directed to the rest of us not apply to her? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am still very much alive and I will not comment on any matters that are sub judice. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Has the Prime Minister ever congratulated her drivers or police escorts on meeting her tight deadlines? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am not commenting on any matter currently before the courts. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Surely it stretches credibility to say that a question about some past congratulations to a driver concerns a matter that is sub judice or for that matter to say that a comment on the Government’s own road safety programme concerns a matter that is sub judice as was the answer given to Mr Hide. If Ministers are to use that as a defence against answering legitimate questions it needs to be absolutely certain that those matters are covered in the court case. It is hard to imagine how the prosecution of five policemen and a civilian driver will be affected by the Prime Minister answering a question about the Government’s road safety programme or for that matter a question about congratulations she might have offered in the past. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member took too long to make that point of order. The Prime Minister is entitled to answer in that way. 
Rodney Hide 
: How does the Prime Minister feel about leaving the police officers and a VIP Transport driver who tried to do their best for her to face serious charges for their loyal work; and why does the buck not stop at the top where the benefit of their speeding lies? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I will make no comment on matters that are sub judice. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: How many times has the Prime Minister found herself using the Nuremburg defence whereby the leaders said they knew nothing and the lower ranks said they were simply obeying orders? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I will not make any comment on matters before the court but I do want to say that I take offence at any comparison made between me and Nazis at a trial. I have taken offence at that and I ask for that comment to be withdrawn. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that you might have missed the end of the Prime Minister’s answer. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I took offence and asked for it to be withdrawn. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think that the comment making that comparison was not perhaps the wisest sort of comment to be made. As offence has been taken I would like the member to withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I am happy to take— 
Stephen Franks 
: The Nuremburg defence— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member cannot get up like that. [ 
Interruption 
] The member will now leave the Chamber. He is not to interject while I am talking. He knows that. 
Stephen Franks withdrew from the Chamber. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have asked the member to stand withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I am happy to take responsibility— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I said that the member will withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want you to reflect on your rulings. The fact that there is such a thing as a Nuremburg defence is in common parlance. If a member of this House when accused of adopting a Nuremburg defence can then say that it is being called a Nazi it would be a most extraordinary and unfortunate confinement of the ability of members to question the Government. I say that it is now established as part of international law that one cannot just say: “I was doing my duty.” I believe that when you look at the transcript you will find that Mr Ryall’s question—especially given the nature of this question—was perfectly in order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for his point of order which was one. If a member however takes offence on personal grounds it is invariable—and has been since I have been here—that the comment must be withdrawn. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That may be so but the Prime Minister did not take offence. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes she did. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Or was it another MP who decided to take offence and raise it as a point of order? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am sorry but the Prime Minister did take offence in her last three or four words. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: No she said in her answer that she did not like it but she did not raise it as a point of order or a parliamentary matter. No doubt now she is doing so but I say that the person who raised it as a point of order was her Minister. Following your logic a member could get up and take objection to anything even if it is not unparliamentary. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I listened to the Prime Minister’s reply and in her last words she took offence at the actual comment that was made. When she takes offence she is entitled to say that and then the comment must be withdrawn. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think it is worth noting that the Prime Minister did not take a point of order to register the offence that she felt was directed at her by the use of that particular term. Mr Mallard took offence and the Prime Minister then confirmed that she was somehow offended. I would also ask this question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please be brief. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: If a member is simply able to say: “I don’t like what you said. Withdraw and apologise because it is offensive to me.” surely that will severely limit debate in this House. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Firstly Mr Mallard drew attention to what the Prime Minister had said because it appeared that you had missed the last part in terms of requesting a withdrawal. Secondly I have been required to withdraw on a number of occasions what I regard as utterly accurate remarks about the Opposition that Opposition members have found offensive. [ 
Interruption 
]  
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will be leaving very quickly if there is any comment while I am on my feet. No point of order was taken at all. I will listen to the tapes but I am advised that no point of order was taken at all. The Prime Minister did confirm that she took offence. There the matter rests. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not contesting your ruling but I ask you to consider the situation that we find ourselves in which is this. The Prime Minister refused to answer the question and said the matter is sub judice. Well that is OK. But then she ended her answer to a question by saying she had taken offence and wanted the remark to be withdrawn. You did not then hear that so it was Trevor Mallard I think who stood up and said that she had taken offence. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I listened to what the Clerk said not to anyone else. 
Rodney Hide 
: OK well the Clerk said that she had taken offence. But will it now be the standard situation that a member can ask for a withdrawal and apology that is just tacked on to the end of an answer to a question or is the member required to take a point of order? I would have thought that it is unacceptable that a Minister answering a question can say at the end of it: “Oh and I take offence and want that withdrawn.” and can then force the questioner to have to withdraw and apologise for what was a legitimate question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No of course I do not take that as a general rule. I listen to each case and judge it on its merits. That is why I am in this job. Occasionally it is and occasionally it is not and that has to be my judgment call. As I said I am a referee. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I ask the Prime Minister about the distance and the time it took to cover that distance with her entourage which means that if the average speed was 120 kilometres per hour there were times when that entourage must have been at 150 kilometres per hour; is she pleading the fifth amendment on the basis that it may incriminate her? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am not commenting on matters before the court and of course I will be taking legal advice throughout the matter.