Davis KelvinKELVIN DAVIS (Deputy Leader—Labour): It is a pleasure to take a call on the Estimates. I would like to focus also on Corrections. We just heard the member who finished speaking Jono Naylor say that Corrections is looking for innovation. Well the trouble with the innovation that we are seeing from Corrections is that it is very stilted and stifled innovation.There are some really exciting examples of best-practice corrections innovation throughout the world in Scandinavia in particular and what do we do with that innovation? We actually totally ignore it. And if we are looking to fulfil the mission statement of Corrections which is to make New Zealand safer—making New Zealand safer is not just by locking people up. In fact we have got 10200 people locked up in prison now. The big thing about that is just about every single one of those 10200 people is going to come out of prison at some stage and we cannot be living under the illusion that by locking up people and mistreating them in prison they are going to come out of prison in a better state of mind.We have just heard that $259.9 million is going to be spent on core services and reducing offending. Well that sounds really good. The trouble though with our programmes in prisons is that—and Corrections acknowledges it in its own annual report—the results of the reoffending programmes produce results that are less than statistically significant.As a former school principal if I produced results for the students that were less than statistically significant I would have got the sack. I would have been moved on. But we still pretend that it is OK to produce results that are less than statistically significant in prisons and we do not do anything really to weed out those programmes that are not effective.In the Estimates we were told that 62 percent of people who arrive in prison arrive with a substance abuse or mental health issue. Now we do very very little to address the underlying causes of their offending. We do have $14 million being invested to address that. Now that is four social workers and four counsellors in the women's prison.The question I asked the Minister at the Law and Order Committee was—because Corrections says the healthcare in prisons is as good as that outside of prisons. And if that is the case if I had a mental health issue I would think that best practice for me would be a visit to a counsellor or someone to help me with my mental health issue probably once a week for an hour or so. The question was to the Minister: does that 60 percent of prisoners—that is some 6000 prisoners—with a mental health issue or a substance abuse issue get to see the counsellor for about an hour a week? And the answer is of course no.So how can we say that we are really making gains in terms of these people helping them with their mental health issues and addressing the underlying factors that cause their offending if all we have got is $14 million? The problem is so much bigger so much broader and we need to invest a heck of a lot more.We heard that Corrections is expecting another thousand prisoners to turn up to prison over the next few years. I say that figure is inaccurate and that we are going to have more than a thousand prisoners turning up to prisons over the next few years. The trajectory we are on if it continues means we will have 4000 or 5000 prisoners over the next couple of years and that does not make New Zealand a safer place. It just means we lock up more people.The conditions in prison are such that those with mental health issues actually need support and rehabilitation in a better environment not concrete and bars. They are not treated well in there in many instances. They are not getting the support they need. They are actually often teased antagonised beaten and broken and yet we expect them to come out of prison after their sentence and we say: Despite the fact that you've been treated like that we want you to be good people after this." It just does not work. It is like kids turning up to school and we mistreat them abuse them yell at them scream at them and say: "Oh by the way now you've got to pass an exam." It just does not happen that way.In the short remaining time I have got left I tell members that I have spoken to an expert in the field. He says that 30 percent of people actually get their mental health issue inside prison and that is not right."