White HelenHELEN WHITE (Labour—Mt Albert): I would like to first of all congratulate Nicole McKee on her ministerial role. I just haven't had that chance to do that formally yet. And it was an interesting contribution because it showed a lot of thought in terms of the balancing of this. Those assurances met the contribution from the Māori Party today where there was a real concern about what that would mean in reality. I think that's a very natural tension that happens over legislation. I remember when there was a movement towards community care for mentally ill people and that was seen as a very ideologically pure thing but there was a real concern that it would become something that was done because it saves some money. And there were consequences when it was used to that end that were not good for our community. So it is always a case of moving with the times and doing things differently. There is nothing wrong with moving in this direction except if we are not mindful of the negative use of it.I guess my experience is not in these arenas but in employment law. But I even became aware of it when we moved to mediation that was remote. It did exactly what Duncan Webb has talked about. It was very difficult to read the signals of people. It meant that it was easy to be dismissive when you were trying to move people and they needed to trust each other. So there are limits to the use of this but there's also a great opportunity for even—and I don't think we should be ashamed of it—getting rid of some of the delay in our systems. The delay in our court processes and the cost of them is very real and very hard on ordinary people. And I can see the use of this with regard to victims as having that plus so long as it is safeguarded by the ability of the victim to take a different course if they want it.So I would love to see this again teased out in as cooperative a way as possible in a select committee. I think there's a lot to discuss here. I am interested in this idea of the trial that actually took place during COVID. There were lots of things like that that happened in COVID where rules got set aside and things got done in a different way and we really do need to make sure that we make the most of what was a traumatic experience but was also one where people were innovative because they had to be.So I'm not at all opposed to this but I share the concerns that have been raised by my colleagues in the House and I think those are very much ones that have been made in good faith. I don't think anybody is trying to be destructive in this situation.I think the issue about consulting with the legal profession is one I'd raise. The Minister and I share a friend actually. I was in a chambers with two defence attorneys who taught me a lot quite quickly about the difference in that area between what they were doing and what I was and how important it was to safeguard the rights of defendants in that situation and how delicate it was and how different it was because of the conditions that people were living in often who were the defendants in those cases. So it's a very different thing if you're in a salubrious house in Devonport with a pool if you're being put on home detention from if you are in a very small space sharing with others.That is the sort of thing that I would love to see taken into account and I think that you might get a rich contribution from the lawyers in this situation who are defending people and actually also from the victims' organisations. Those are the places I'd love to see contribute. I'd love to see victims given a very special place in that process because the harm that has been done often means that they are quiet; they don't necessarily even want to participate. So I would love to see some encouragement of those voices in this situation because being heard is so important to the healing process. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.