Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:641;Page:11429] 
5.  
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Does his ministry comply with the Prime Minister’s statement that “The government expectation is that departments will build capacity so are not routinely hiring contractors for their core functions.”; if not why not? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)) 
on behalf of the 
Acting Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Yes. 
Judith Collins 
: How can it be in accordance with the Prime Minister’s statement for his ministry to indulge in a $40 million spend-up on private contractors and consultants in only 3 years plus another $15 million on marketing Labour’s Working for Families policy while at the same time increasing the number of in-house spin doctors by 134 percent? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The member uses new maths in both her supplementary question and her press release of 17 July. The press release says that the ministry spent $17.2 million in 2005-06; actually that figure was $13.5 million—$2.6 million was budgeted to be spent the following year. Further Ms Collins counted parts of a contract with Saatchi and Saatchi for the yearly StudyLink campaign to ensure that students knew that they could approach StudyLink online and thus reduce their waiting time up to four times. She counted the same contract four times because it was in the estimates information provided to the select committee four times. Rather than working out that each mention applied to exactly the same contract she just added them up. The question has about as much credibility as her maths. 
Steve Chadwick 
: Is the Minister aware of any instances where ministries or departments have been unable to meet their core functions and responsibilities without using external consultants or contractors? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I am aware of the incident that led the Prime Minister to make the statement that the member used in her primary question. It was when Labour was elected to lead the Government in 1999 and the Public Service had been so badly run down by the previous 9 years of a National Government that the Department of Work and Income had to hire external consultants to write the briefing to the incoming Government. The Labour-led Government has focused on rebuilding core capability within the Public Service unlike the National Party which wants to slash public spending for tax cuts. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister agree that speech writing literature reviews and communication plans are core functions for in-house public relations staff; if he does why has the Ministry of Social Development’s expenditure on private consultants to do this sort of work soared to record highs while at the same time his in-house public relations staff have increased from 23 people in 2001 to 54 today— 
Hon Member 
: What! 
Judith Collins 
: —yes 54—which is a 134 percent increase? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As the member knows there are some instances where it does make sense to use consultants and contractors—for example where there are temporary increases in demand where there are short-term— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Please be seated. Because members are sitting near the Chair their constant interjections during the answer are probably louder and more troublesome than normal. I would ask those members please to wait for the Minister to answer the question; then they can have another supplementary question. 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: There are some instances where it does make sense to use consultants and contractors—for example where there are temporary increases in demand where there are short-term difficulties recruiting staff for permanent roles or where specialist knowledge is required. It is also important to remember that in some areas—for example the planning and execution of public awareness campaigns—most of the available expertise can actually only be sourced on a contractual basis. Our Government believes in the public of New Zealand knowing understanding and being able to receive their entitlement. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister stand by his statement when in Opposition that “Work and Income is a gravy train for consultants and the public sector relies too much on contracted staff.”; if he does why has he allowed his ministry’s spending on contractors to soar from $5 million in 2004 to $17 million last year; and if the department was a gravy train for consultants then would it be fair to describe his ministry as a runaway gravy train for consultants now? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The member conveniently overlooks the fact that the former Department of Work and Income is not comparable with the current Ministry of Social Development. The Ministry of Social Development was in the bad old days of her party leading the Government part of a separate operation; it is no longer—in the same way as the former Department of Child Youth and Family Services is now part of that ministry and in the same way as the Ministry of Youth Affairs is now part of that ministry. She cannot get away with being so lazy as to compare apples with oranges. The fact is that in the days prior to 1999 the core functions of the Department of Work and Income such as writing the briefing to the incoming new Government had to be consulted out because of the rundown of the public service. 
Judith Collins 
: Why after all the staff increases and the $200000 salaries is the Minister’s ministry still employing contractors for advice when 8 years ago the Prime Minister in talking about the Department of Work and Income said: “What can be more fundamental than advising a Government?” and “You have to get consultants to do it? What is going on at WINZ?” 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I think the member should learn a lesson from Keith Locke and say “This is a friendly question.” The Department of Work and Income under the Government of that member’s party had to hire out to PricewaterhouseCoopers provision of the briefing to the incoming Government. There is nothing more core or fundamental from a departmental view than providing a briefing to an incoming Government. The member also conveniently overlooks the fact that the Ministry of Social Policy is no longer. We now have within the Ministry of Social Development Work and Income which was previously separated; Child Youth and Family which was previously separated; the Ministry of Youth Development which was previously separated; as well as two other new offices. If the member wants to ever gain an ounce of credibility and restore the faith that her co-leader Bill English has never had in her she should try presenting some facts in a question. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister agree with Helen Clark who in 1999 said of the Department of Work and Income hiring consultants for core tasks: “You might expect it of a small agency which doesn’t have many staff but for heaven’s sake this one would be the largest Government department.”; if so why is it necessary for his ministry which is the largest Government department to hire record numbers of public relations consultants at the very same time that his in-house public relations staff team has ballooned to 54 people—a 134 percent increase in just 6 years? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The member can continue to compare two completely different scenarios but it does nothing at all for her credibility. She cannot assume that advertising campaigns and the promotion of new entitlements should automatically be done within the baseline; that is not always the case. The funding for the advertising campaign for Working for Families was new additional funding; it was allowed for in the new Budget item. It is not part of the contracting and consultancy fee as it was made out to be in that member’s press statement; it is separate. 
Judith Collins 
: I seek the leave of the House to table “What is going on at WINZ”— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is. 
Judith Collins 
: I seek leave to table a table of expenditure on consultants and contractors. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is. 
Judith Collins 
: I seek leave to table a table of staff numbers at the Ministry of Social Development showing the massive— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is.