Collins Judith: Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Collins Judith: Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 24 November 2009. Volume:659;Page:8114. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 I need to answer a few of the questions that have been raised. The member the Hon Rick Barker has just resumed his seat. He said I had said the programmes for Maori were first introduced in the Auckland Central Remand Prison. But I said that was the first programme for remand prisoners. He should listen. 
The member also made some points there about costs. All through the debate tonight we have heard from Labour members but not one of them has talked about the need for rehabilitation or the fact that rehabilitation costs money. Unfortunately they continue to ignore the fact that the Auckland Central Remand Prison as a remand centre—the only one that was fully a remand centre at that stage—actually provided rehabilitation. It was contracted for 70000 hours. That was not something that was prevalent in the remand wings of our public prisons at that stage; that prison was in fact a leader on that. Those members ignore the fact that that contract cost money. Well this party is not going to ignore rehabilitation which is why we have doubled the number of rehabilitation places for our prisoners in our first term. 
Some questions have been asked about ideology. What is our ideology? It is pretty simple really; it is whatever works. Whatever works in corrections is what we are going to do. We will not do what the Labour Party does which is to say it has an ideology of being against the private sector. But here is a little question for the Labour members to answer; Mr Barker may like to answer it. If Labour members are so against the private management of prisons why was Chubb which Mr Barker called a glorified taxi service the company that under Labour responded to all the home detention call-outs? I ask Mr Barker why that was the case. It was because of course it is OK for Labour to call on the private sector when it feels like it but Labour will not have the private sector anywhere where Labour can make a point out of it. It was quite safe to do that when National was Opposition because the Labour members knew that National actually— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: That is because it was home detention not incarceration in a prison. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Oh Lianne Dalziel says it is not incarceration. Well she should tell that to the courts. I think it is extremely important to ask those questions. 
There have been some questions from Moana Mackey. She asked why the terms of the contracts are not in the bill. It is a good point except that the terms of contracts are in those contracts. That is a sort of basic fact. If she had looked at that she would understand it. 
Moana Mackey also said there would be corruption. She talked about judges being corrupt and sending prisoners off to jails. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: In America. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: That was in America. Let us just look at this. Moana Mackey is saying judges in New Zealand could be corrupt. Well I actually do not have one instance of knowing of a judge in New Zealand who could be corrupt. 
Grant Robertson 
: She never said that. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: If she did not want to raise it why did she bring it into this debate? The other thing she said was that judges could collude with private prison managers. She said that happened in America so it is obviously applicable here! Well in New Zealand— 
Hon Member 
: So the Minister admits it happened. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No no. If the member wants to know about it she should answer this question: who decides to which prison a prisoner goes? It is actually the Department of Corrections. Is she now going to say the Department of Corrections is corrupt as well? Is that what she is going to say? When it comes to incarceration this is a completely different system than that which operates in any of the states of America. We do not have politically elected judges; we have appointed judges who are appointed until their retirement age. The vast majority of our prison population will be in the State-managed prisons. 
Chris Hipkins has asked about Rimutaka Prison and about how many prisons would be under private management. I wish he had listened because I have said time and time again all year—and I have put out a number of press releases on this—that we are looking at two: the new prison being built at Mount Eden and a new prison possibly being built at Wiri which is in Auckland. So we are not talking about wholesale privatisation. 
Metiria Turei 
: Who pays for the buildings? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: The member from the Greens likes to pipe up and make her voice heard now. She said she went to the Auckland Central Remand Prison. What did she say? She loved the innovation. She said it was all because of Dom Karauria who was the manager. She then went on to allege corruption in that prison. She said the people were fudging the statistics. That is what she said about the manager of that prison and she should be ashamed of herself for making that allegation. That man is a very impressive manager of prisons and she would be very lucky if he came back here. 
What are some of the other things? Oh yes—Lianne Dalziel. She talked about the core functions of the State. I am actually with Phil Goff on this one: when it comes to prisons it does not matter who owns them and it does not matter who manages them; what matters are the outcomes. The outcomes from privately managed prisons and our State-run prisons should be all about rehabilitation: preventing people from being re-victimised out in society and making sure that we do not simply lock people up and leave them there. When Labour came into Government— 
Metiria Turei 
: You’re wasting time and money on private prisons when you should be dealing with the public sector. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: If Miss Turei would listen she would learn something. 
Simon Bridges 
: She doesn’t listen. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I know she does not listen. She could listen to this: when Labour came into Government there were— 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Is it not the usual format for the Minister in the chair to actually answer questions raised by previous speakers rather than give a political diatribe from the chair? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Leave was sought for a wide-ranging debate on the remaining parts and I think the Minister is having a wide-ranging debate on the remaining parts. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Thank you very much Mr Chair. It shows that those members do not like the answers do they? They really do not. Miss Turei has made all sorts of comments about the integrity of the people who worked at Auckland Central Remand Prison. She has said from hearsay evidence given to her in a select committee that the place was corrupt yet she has at the same time said the manager there was one of the most impressive people whom she had met. She also said that prison was innovative. That is what she said. So that member is extraordinarily confused. However in amongst her ideology against privately run prisons she has now said we should have a partnership with iwi in the public sector. I am glad to hear that the Greens have come round to public-private partnerships. I look forward to their support when we build the new prison at Wiri because I think that will be very very interesting. 
Generally I ask the Opposition members to please stop ignoring the 70000 hours of rehabilitation that Auckland Central Remand Prison put in and to please stop denigrating the people who did good work at that prison. They were good people they did good work and they should not be denigrated just because the Opposition has an ideological problem. The only ideology that we are bringing to this issue is whatever works and I am very proud to see that.