Jackson WillieHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour): I think the appropriate name for the bill would be probably Kick the Māoris in the Guts Again Bill". I think that's probably a better title. I'm serious about this because this is happening every week from the Government if we think about it. I know that was a nice title from my friend over there the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan but I just think "Kick the Māoris in the Guts Again from the Government Bill" would be a much better title.I think that this bill—and I'm not the first one to say this; so many people are saying that out there. I think James Meager agrees with me too in his heart if he thinks about it. Every week Māori are under attack. So that's why I'm saying—CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): Can I just ask the member for a moment just to lift the conversation. I've heard a lot of debate in this piece of legislation and I've also heard very good forthcoming speeches about how actually this is about the gangs and there's a small proportion of those gangs who are in fact Māori so can we keep this conversation—and I did hear the Minister who was in the chair at the time acknowledge that because I was sitting here. So I think could we make it about the gangs and the title and the commencement of the gangs bill—yeah. Thank you.Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Yeah well I'm giving you a suggestion in terms of the title and I'm giving you some basis for the title. I want to elaborate because I've had Māori leaders gang leaders talk to me. I think I know with respect probably more gang members than most people in this House. I suppose that's not something to be proud about but I've been raised around many gang members many who have turned their lives around—many who have turned their lives around—some of them who will be working with this Government. Good on this Government for wanting to work with some of those gang members because you're never going to get to the root of the problem if you don't work with the Eugene Ryders of this world if you don't work with the Denis O'Reillys of this world if you don't work with the gang leaders. I've been around many of them and I've been no big fan of gangs at all. In fact for the committee's information we bar patches on my marae and we've had that gang patch ban—Simon Court: Is it working?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: —for many years. I'll tell you why it's working and that's a good question. I'll tell you why it's working: because we work with the whānau too—we work with the whānau too. So I accept some of the kōrero that the gang patches can be intimidating. All people can get intimidated by gang patches—Māori Pākehā whatever. But one thing we can't walk away from—and this is the problem with the legislation—is that you're actually affecting whānau; that's the problem.In our school that we set up at my marae at Ngā Whare Waatea which is open to everyone 25 percent of our kids had gang fathers. Gang fathers—they know when they attend the marae no patches. So we need to bring in laws. See here's the thing: National has got some history in terms of working with gangs. A very famous or infamous Prime Minister Rob Muldoon had a relationship with gangs. He had the gangs in here. He knew the way forward. The way forward was to keep them busy to keep them in work. When Muldoon died the Black Power performed a haka at his tangi. He wanted to find a way through. He was someone who knew there had to be a strategy around gangs not just getting rid of patches. What we did was try to dismantle the assets where this former Minister over here did some wonderful work. We have to cut to the chase cut to the root of the problem. Just taking their patches is not going to make communities any safer; it's got to be a bit more than that. I appreciate the fear. I appreciate the fear that is out there amongst some of the communities. I've debated this at length with people like Michael Laws who I worked with some years ago. We used to debate this on radio in terms of the effect of taking patches off. At the time Michael Laws was the Whanganui mayor and he was going down this track and so my partner in crime there John Tamihere who became the president of Te Pāti Māori—[Time expired] Madam Chair? Thank you Madam Chair. So if I could just continue my partner in crime John Tamihere who is now the president of Te Pāti Māori absolutely supported getting rid of patches. Just for Te Pāti Māori's information he 100 percent supported getting rid of patches of gangs but of course I know Te Pāti Māori has evolved and so has John Tamihere I believe but at the time he was absolutely clear that those patches had to come off the gangs. He was in Michael Law's court believe it or not. I never was because we needed to think this out. We needed to think about the broader strategies. Were we looking after whānau? Was employment being put in place? Were the gangs being I suppose looked after? When people whether it's gangs or whatever have nothing to do they do what they shouldn't do. We should know that.Now my organisation back in the 1980s and 1990s we were contracting Black Power and the president at the time was a guy called Abe Wharewaka who you would know—Abe Wharewaka. They were contracted to our organisation and so we had the Black Power members all in work all busy all active. This is what Muldoon said one of the National Party icons and heroes. He said you just can't leave them to their own devices. People like Muldoon said it's not just about taking their patches; it's about providing work. It's about looking after whānau. It's about getting these guys out of what they're involved with.I am not a supporter of gangs. Sorry about that there sister but I am not a supporter of gangs and I have told the gangs this but I'm a supporter of their whānau. When I see them I see their families I see their wives I see their tamariki and we have an obligation as Māori and Māori community organisations to look after their whānau no matter what the hell their fathers have done sometimes. We all tell them off. These people in the Chamber will tell them off but you can't just take patches off them and think that "Oh it's all been solved now." It's too superficial. You have to hit them in the pocket. You have to hit the asset side. What this legislation is threatening to do—you need to listen here. You need to listen. I'm not just trying to grandstand here. You need to think about things in a whānau aspect.This is a Government that prides itself in terms of supporting Whānau Ora. This Government has supported the funding in terms of Whānau Ora. I've given Tama Potaka some credit with that. Part of Whānau Ora is looking after people who might upset you who might have upset your whānau and upset your community but you have an obligation to look after that whānau. So I say to this Government you've got to look beyond the patch. You've got to look beyond the patch—what's happening at home? What's happening in the community? I think the Prime Minister fronted very well in terms of when we had the abuse victims here. It was a very good day I think for this Parliament when we had a Prime Minister and parties supporting people who have been dealt to by the State. Then the next day you start pushing this type of legislation. Māori and communities have had enough. So I implore this Government—I know they're not going to change this legislation now—to think about this because you've got communities in an uproar. You've got communities in an uproar. You saw some of the—CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): Don't bring the Chair into the debate please.Hon WILLIE JACKSON: My apologies Madam Chair. We have communities in an uproar. You saw some of the performance on television last night in terms of the Māori seats—you saw that. Do we support that sort of violent response? Of course not but this is what happens. People get emotional. I know people will say "Oh these are only gang patches and so who cares?" Families care. Communities care. Iwi care. So I say today that I can't give you any other title apart from "Kick the Māori in the Guts". That's the best suggestion I could come up with at this stage but I'll keep talking if you like and I might find another title over the next five minutes but I'm asking the Government to consider the overall strategy. How do we best hurt these gangs? You hurt them by dismantling their asset space. There's no easy fix. How do we go through the rehabilitation? How do we? We go through—CHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger): I thank the member for turning that into a constructive call and I'll take a call from Tamatha Paul please."