Webb Duncan; Salesa JennyDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you Madam Speaker. I must say that was a thoughtful speech by Mr Smith of the ACT Party. It's not often a Labour member can stand up and express pretty much wholehearted agreement with an ACT member's speech but I was heartened. I was heartened in many respects to hear the affirmation of taking into account of refugees and our Pacific neighbours as well of course as the intent of the bill itself. And I suppose it's also worth noting that we don't often divide starkly with the Greens on matters of social policy but on this matter we do. I do think that in this respect the Green Party have essentially mistaken the intent and purport of this bill because you know in my view and in the view of most members I think this is not a bill which is about to create some hardship. In fact at select committee we were at pains to make sure that really there was no hardship. And I do want to recognise that given that a goodly number of our immigrants come from countries with either good pension arrangements transportable pension arrangements generally or with reciprocal arrangements with New Zealand in respect of pensions the immigrants who are most significantly affected come from a narrow group of less-developed countries. So for example we had some submissions from people from the Indian subcontinent and also from China. I did want to point out that we had a really good submission from a group of organisations eight Chinese organisations—Albany Chinese Association Blockhouse Bay Community Centre Browns Bay Chinese Society and several others representing the Chinese community. In fact they were pretty supportive of the overall thrust of the bill. Now they vigorously opposed the original drafting which would have seen it come in pretty much overnight and quite rightly so. I mean I think at select committee we were all agreed that you couldn't invite people into New Zealand on an expectation of having certain benefits conferred by the State such as superannuation and then all of a sudden kind of pull the rug out from under them and say Hang on we're changing it overnight." That's why we looked at the long ultimately 20-year transition period. I think that is very fair.The other submission that I put a lot of store on for a number of reasons was that by the Retirement Policy and Research Centre from the University of Auckland not least because Susan St John was the submitter and we know that Ms St John is well known for her advocacy in respect of poverty and hardship. Now I don't want to misrepresent that submission because she very much tied the residency requirements with the transferability requirements of pensions but in that submission some really really good points were made. I think it is worth noting that the universality of New Zealand's pension superannuation is really quite extraordinary. It's not means-tested and it is universally available. Look it is actually a treasure that we want to look after. Ms St John in her submission noted its comparative generosity. Now it may not be up there with—and I don't know the exact numbers—a Government employee's pension in Germany or England but they are not universal pensions. They are pensions which are made over a number of years of working for an agency or a Government department or whatever. But in terms of a universal pension tagged to the average wage and increased accordingly this is comparatively generous.It was noted there that really there's some big questions in there and I think in terms of the amount of the Government budget spent on superannuation that Mr Smith referred to there is a question of intergenerational equity. Certainly there's a question about the degree to which it is appropriate if ever to borrow to pay superannuitants and then foist that burden on young people today who will be earning tomorrow. So we've got to be very cautious about that.And of course our super fund is aimed at making sure that that doesn't happen that we don't simply—Angie Warren-Clark: Switched back on.Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Switched back on by the Labour Government in 2017 when the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern hit the big button and put $500 million into it in the first few weeks of the first Labour Government here recently. So there is that intergenerational equity question. But it's also a question of fairness as well and as has been pointed out the idea that someone might emigrate to New Zealand at say aged 63 which is the example used never having paid any tax in New Zealand—I mean quite possibly never would at the age of 63—and then after 10 years' residency be entitled to national superannuation payment for the rest of their lives and the numbers in this submission—I suggest people read it if they are interested—that is a huge benefit. So the average total amount paid to a superannuitant is $356720 for a male or $458640 for a female. That's a very significant sum of money.Now whilst Mr Menéndez March can talk about the need to alleviate poverty and we agree with that the suggestion that a person can come to New Zealand and live here for a relatively short period of time and have a legitimate claim a legitimate expectation of being supported by the wider people of New Zealand—none of the submitters thought that was the case. They actually were pretty universal in saying "Look we get it but look we've got to plan. We've got to plan much better. It's unfair to change the financial framework overnight." So that's in fact what the bill back before the House does. It has a very long additional 10-year transitional period a stepped transitional period that was in fact very well-thought-through.I think it's been a really good process and I know there's further discussion to be had. I know the Retirement Commissioner has additional views about when this bill should commence and that's probably a discussion for a little later on. I just would note as well that given (a) the transitional period and (b) the unusual circumstances we found ourselves in with COVID the acuity of the problem is probably ameliorated somewhat because the amount of people coming to New Zealand in the kind of age bracket where they might expect superannuation in the next decade or two has fallen off considerably. But it's worth noting that between 2015 and 2019 there were between 6000 and almost 9000 people in the over-60 age bracket coming to live in New Zealand. So that's a lot of people that one way or another would have been—and that's as residents migrant arrivals. So that's a lot of people who would have been looking at that.Look I think this is a really good piece of legislation but coming back to the excellent speech by Mr Smith really good to point out that not only have we got that still—Damien Smith: Come across!Dr DUNCAN WEBB: It won't happen again don't worry—ha ha! But not only do we have this stepped transition but absolutely we took care. Anna Lorck was very good in committee—I think it was Anna Lorck wasn't it—who looked at the veterans who really wanted us to look at the veterans and make sure that the interface with veterans pensions was right. We had a good examination of how it interfaced with COVID generally but also our Pasifika neighbours recognising that we've got a special duty and responsibility to Realm countries and of course all of those other things in there as well. So a good piece of legislation. I absolutely commend this one to the House.ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa): The next call is a split call—I call Ian McKelvie."