English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Question No. 6 to Minister 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Question No. 6 to Minister 
[Volume:628;Page:532] 
8.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister for Tertiary Education 
: Did the Government pay $127605 for the services of a development adviser appointed in June 2002 to assist the council of Te Wananga o Aotearoa to improve governance of the institution and to attend council meetings; if so did that adviser report to the Ministry of Education or Ministers? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister for Tertiary Education) 
: 
 Yes and Mr McNally reported on his work assisting the council in the first instance to the Tertiary Advisory Monitoring Unit. I am advised that some reports are made direct to Ministers. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister agree with Trevor Mallard who wrote to the wananga on 20 June 2005 telling it he had made a preliminary decision to sack the wananga council and replace it with a commissioner; if so why? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes I can confirm that my predecessor wrote that letter and I agree that he had made that preliminary decision. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why has the Government today backed down on its threat to sack the council when the Auditor-General has just issued a report that found financial mismanagement badly managed conflicts of interest and an institution to which the Government will pay well over $100 million of taxpayers’ money this year? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The process begun by my predecessor was due to the intervention of the election clearly out of time. There were legal doubts about whether that could be completed. More important the High Court has found—and this is now subject to appeal so I must be careful how I phrase this—that the council reconstituted itself and a number of members have resigned from the council. The residual council has been engaged in working with the Crown manager and Crown observer—the same person—to reconstitute a great deal of the operations of the wananga. Progress is being made very significantly in relation to the matters raised by the Auditor-General’s report which of course was for the years 2002 2003 and 2004. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: In the interests of advising the National Party freshmen who came in here on the backs of Orewa I and Orewa II I ask the Minister whether he remembers—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No. I agree; the member will please be seated. Could the member please comply with the Standing Orders when asking the question and remove all superfluous comments and just ask the question directly. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am happy to do that Madam Speaker. Does the Minister remember which party when in Government maintained a cap on funding to Te Wananga o Aotearoa and which party governing by itself in 1999 uncapped funding which led to the present situation of that institution? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The wananga was approved for creation in 1993 under the previous National Government. The funding was uncapped in 1999. Of course when people who represented the wananga and the Aotearoa Institute came to this Parliament only a few short weeks ago to protest against the Government’s actions in intervening in the wananga they were met by a delegation from the National Party. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Minister now asking Parliament to believe that the content of the Auditor-General’s report released today should reassure members that the wananga council should not be sacked when back in June Trevor Mallard told the council that it met all six statutory criteria to be sacked and replaced by a commissioner; and what is it in the Auditor-General’s report that should give this Parliament so much reassurance? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Nothing in the Auditor-General’s report—which is a sorry picture indeed of what was happening in the wananga. The difference is that the council that is now running the wananga is not the council that was in office in July 2005 as a large number of members of that council have now been deemed to have resigned. If of course the situation changes in any shape or form I reserve the right to do one of three things: first to restart the commissioner process; second to investigate and to apply for the possibility of a statutory manager and preliminary work has already been undertaken on that; and third if necessary to come to this House for support for legislation which has already been drafted and is being held in reserve. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Have any of the Minister’s officials been confused by the sight of the National Party visiting the wananga in the pre-election period hongi-ing and talking to its people in the most friendly terms inside on the marae and in the institution and then going out and saying something totally different to the media? 
Lindsay Tisch 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. How can that have any reference to the debate going on at the moment? The Minister has no responsibility for that. What happens in the election period for National is our business and that member is completely out of order. His question should be struck out for that reason. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I was asked whether I have any reports that my officials had been confused by those matters and I would be very happy to respond on that matter. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: There was so much noise I did not actually hear the end of the member’s question so I was waiting before I ruled on it. I ask the member to repeat the question please.  
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Has the Minister received any reports from his officials regarding any confusion they may have in their minds they having seen National Party members in the pre-election period go to the wananga hongi with all the senior officials of that institution at their place of domicile and then go outside and say something totally different and opposite to the New Zealand media? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Whether officials are confused is hardly a question that a Minister can answer. The reality is that most Ministers particularly in that Minister’s ministry are extremely confused and it would be no surprise to find that officials throughout the Government are confused. If the Minister were to stand up and say that he has seen reports about confused Ministers that would come as no surprise but we would be very pleased if he would table all of those reports.  
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. I ask the Minister to reply. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: No I am not aware of my officials ever being confused by anything that National members say—I am not sure that they are interested in that. I am aware that Mr Wetere stated at one point that he was looking forward to the election of a National Government which would help him to reinstate himself to his position in the wananga.  
Hon Bill English 
: Given that the Minister has said he is aware of the letter that Trevor Mallard wrote to the council on 20 June 2005 with his decision to sack the council which of the six criteria for sacking that the council then met but now do not apply which means that the Minister has backed down on the threat that was issued? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I explained to the member that my legal advice was that fundamentally the process was out of time. More important I explained to the member and I will repeat it for him that the High Court has ruled that in effect a large proportion of the council has resigned. The people who are now in effect functioning as the council do not represent the same kinds of views attitudes and practices that the Auditor-General’s report has condemned. Therefore it is possible that we are able to arrive at a satisfactory outcome without further heavy-handed intervention. I repeat that I keep in my back pocket the possibility of firstly sending in a commissioner which requires a consultation process that takes weeks; secondly sending in a statutory manager; or thirdly legislation which I am sure the National Party will then find a reason to oppose.  
Hon Bill English 
: When will the Government exercise some accountability in respect of the two Ministers and hundreds of officials who sat and watched the financial mismanagement and badly managed conflicts of interest for the last 5 years and who did nothing about it? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It is completely incorrect to say that nothing has been done about it. Apart from the fact that the primary question refers to one particular intervention in that respect a Crown observer was appointed in February the council appointed a Crown manager in March and the commission process started in July. The Government is continuing to work with the new smaller council at Te Wananga o Aotearoa. There is every reason to believe that the problems of governance and management that pertained for a number of years at the wananga are now being addressed. I repeat that should any part of that situation change I will invite members opposite to vote if need be for legislation which is already drafted to provide for intervention.