Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:606;Page:4063] 
3.  
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: Since she has been Minister how many foreigners have arrived in New Zealand as visitors and not left at the end of their visit such as Mr Shinozaki who died Wednesday 26 February and the six other students from the “rogue” Columbus Academy who remain here? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 More than 4 million visitors have arrived in New Zealand since December 1999. The overall rate of overstaying is estimated to be one of the lowest rates in the world although of course many people depart of their own accord at some point after their permits expire or appeal against removal. I cannot say exactly how many are in the situation of the named student as he entered New Zealand in July 1997 when I was not the Minister of Immigration. There has not been any occasion during the time I have been Minister that he could have been lawfully removed from New Zealand by the New Zealand Immigration Service. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is the Minister not aware that when Mr Shinozaki arrived in 1997 he came as a visitor or tourist but that his status was later changed—a change that she concurred with as Minister of Immigration—and can she tell me therefore how many of the 2.045 million visitors who arrived in New Zealand in the year ending December 2002 actually left and how many of those 2.045 million visitors remain living here or does she simply not know? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: The question of whether they remain here begs the question as to whether they are here on a lawful permit or whether they have lodged an appeal against their removal. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: They are visitors. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: The member should know because he was the Deputy Prime Minister in 1997 when the individual came in. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Tourist. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: No the individual came in visa-free. He was granted a visitor permit at the border. He subsequently applied for more than one student permit. At the time that he died he had no student permit—and I advised the member of that fact earlier on this week. He had however lodged an appeal with the Removal Review Authority which means he could not be removed. 
Dave Hereora 
: Can the Minister confirm that no student permits were issued for study at the Columbus Academy; if so what sorts of institutions did those students have permits for? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: No permits were issued for students to study at the Columbus Academy which is not a registered educational institution. Those who had student permits had permits to attend various schools and tertiary institutions in the Auckland area. Most of those students have been identified and are being checked. But unfortunately I have to advise the House that investigations are being seriously hampered by the academy’s lack of cooperation. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Can I ask the Minister to answer the first part of Mr Peters’ original question which was that since she has been Minister how many foreigners have arrived in New Zealand as visitors and not left at the end of their visit? It seems to me that she should be able to provide an answer to that question. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Four million visitors have arrived in New Zealand since December 1999 and I spelt that out. I can tell the member that we have an estimate of overstayers in the country as of October 2002 of 18134. But I should make a comparison with the same figure for December 1997 which was 19557. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr McCully asked the same question that I asked. It is simply a case of the Minister saying that she either knows or does not know and perhaps of sharing with us the difficulty she might have in respect of her portfolio and her lack of experience. But she cannot go on everyday obfuscating— 
Government Member 
: Give up. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am not giving up. Your worst nightmare is about to happen! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have never regarded this place as a nightmare. This is always an afternoon event that I have very much enjoyment presiding over. The Minister addressed the question. The answer might not have been satisfactory to the member but she did address the question. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want to raise this issue with you. Mr Peters asked the Minister a very precise question about the number of people arriving in New Zealand as tourists and not leaving when their visitor’s visa had expired. She gave an answer which the House accepts as her word: she said that she did not have the number. She was then asked the same question by my colleague Murray McCully and she gave a number of 18134. She had gone to the trouble not only of getting as she should have done because the question had been put down for oral answer a number for October last year—which is a bit out of date but she said that that was the date she had a figure for—but also of getting a number for 1997 so that she was able to give a comparison. 
There comes a point surely when you have to say to Ministers that if they have the information they should give it in their answer to the primary question rather than our having to waste two or three supplementary questions before the Minister gives the number that she was asked to provide. When the Minister stood and said in her first answer that she did not have the information we had to accept that. That was wrong as we now know because she had the information; she just chose not to give it. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Speaking to the point of order I want to say that the  
Hansard 
 will show that that is not correct. What I said was that I could not say how many were in the situation of the named student because the named student did not arrive in New Zealand when I was the Minister—and that was what I was asked to provide an answer to—and that there had been no occasion at any point since I have been the Minister that he could lawfully have been removed from New Zealand. I have explained very clearly the number of visitors who have arrived in New Zealand since December 1999 and I have given my reasons for not being able to give an exact figure on the exact movements of every one of those 4 million visitors. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister has given some information in her answer to the supplementary question. This may or may not be what she was specifically asked or originally asked but she is entitled to do this. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Could the Minister confirm that such a visitor is recorded by the statistics gathered at the airport by way of the incoming card and that that is the only record and that therefore she is unable to send people home when their visitor or student visas expire because she has no idea which visitor or supposed student is staying or leaving; and perhaps she herself might like to enrol in the Japanese academy that specialises in catering for lost souls? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The last part of the question is out of order. The first part can be answered. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: The issue of students who come to New Zealand to study who enter the country by way of visa-free arrangements then apply for a student permit after they have entered has led to the Government adopting a very good position on a code of practice. The schools are now required by the code of practice and by immigration policy to notify us if any of the students are not complying with the provisions of their permit. That is when we take action to remove them. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: How is the Minister able to give any sort of assurance to this House and to the country about what is going on in respect of the numbers that we read from Statistics New Zealand when in fact the cross-referencing does not happen in respect of tourists and those who change their applications to a student permit and that therefore we have no idea whether 2 million people arrived or 3 million people arrived or whether we have 20000 or 40000 overstayers—is that not a fact? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: When I became the Minister I discovered that the record keeping in respect of overstayers was abysmal so I asked the Immigration Service to develop a better mechanism for identifying the rates of overstaying. The best estimate I can provide for the House is 18134. I can say that when that member was the Deputy Prime Minister the figure was 19557 and the rates of visitors to this country have increased substantially since then. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We saw Mr Sowry’s point there again. This Minister never answers the primary question. She ducks and dives and when she thinks she has some sort of advantage—perverse as it might be—she seeks to give out some disclosure. That is the reason the House when it comes to this Minister is constantly on the verge of a state of disorder—because she will not answer a simple question. Today it was not a matter of which people like the Japanese tourist overstayed; the question was how many people who came here as visitors overstayed such as these eight people by way of example. She sought to say in her answer that she could not quantify those in the same category as the Japanese student and therefore she did not know. That is just obfuscation of the worst sort. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I judged that the Minister addressed the question and there the matter stays. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have agreed to look at the  
Hansard 
 of the answer to a question earlier today and to come back to us after the House resumes on 18 March. Day after day we hear you telling the House that you judge that a Minister has addressed a question. The Standing Orders are very very clear about what a Minister has to do. The Minister must give a reply to a question that is concise and confined to the subject matter of the question asked. I think the point Mr Peters makes is that in the case of the Minister of Immigration she most certainly wavers all over the place before eventually deciding on her own terms that she might release information to Parliament usually out of context. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Anyone listening over the last few weeks would know that there is a great deal of contention about immigration statistics. This is a matter of interchange between members. Different opinions are held and different statements are made. All I have to ensure is that the Minister addressed the question. She did. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That is the very point. Of course there is controversy. That is why these questions are being asked. She is in charge of the portfolio. Her job is to remove the controversy and confusion and give us some certainty and if she cannot she should resign. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That point of order was not necessary particularly the last words. That is why I give quite a lot of latitude to members asking questions. They can ask questions of Ministers but they have to realise that they are not always going to be satisfied with the answer.