Borrows Chester: Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) — In Committee 
Borrows Chester: Legal Services Amendment Bill (No 2) — In Committee 
[Volume:630;Page:2124] 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 I rise to address the issues the Minister has just talked about that were raised last night. I will preface my remarks by drawing some analogies. For a medical specialist the hourly rate for working in a public hospital is lower than the hourly rate for working in a private hospital. For instance in Taranaki it would take 55 minutes to get a knee replacement in a private hospital and 1½ hours in a public hospital because the hourly rate in a public hospital is lower. An accountant who gives budget advice or a psychologist who sees Accident Compensation Corporation clients does so for reasons other than money—to meet a social need—and has to make a judgment sooner or later as to how much time to allocate to doing such work at a lower rate. 
The fact that a lawyer may make such a judgment does not mean he or she is as tight as a snapper’s arse or is only self-interested. That seems a reasonably fair point to make. Talking about lawyers’ wages or hourly rates is a bit like talking about the same thing with regard to MPs—one does not talk about it because everyone has already made an assessment. Sooner or later people engaged in activities such as legal aid work need to balance their needs and the needs of the community they serve. I wonder how keen this Government would be—or any Government would be for that matter—to allow children in low-decile schools to be taught by teachers who are paid about a third less than we pay teachers in high-decile schools. That is the sort of argument we get into. 
Let us look at the Crown Solicitors Regulations 1994 and make a few comparisons. For instance the Minister keeps quoting an hourly rate for legal aid of $165. I must tell the Minister that that figure relates to what a Queen’s Counsel receives for doing a murder trial. 
A question was raised last night by our good friend “Mini-Me” or whatever his latest nickname is. I have done my best to do some research and give him the answers. Let us just wander through that. As a brand new wet-behind-the-ears junior legal aid counsel I got $95 an hour—or my firm was paid $95 an hour and I got $20 an hour. In fact during the 2½ years I worked as a lawyer I was never paid what I was paid as a cop and I have to say that I worked a damn sight harder as a lawyer. So the top hourly rate on legal aid is $165 an hour. The top rate for a Crown solicitor is $216 an hour. 
Let us look at other provisions lawyers are given too—for instance the preparation time for sentencing. A senior counsel who might be earning anywhere between $130 and $160 an hour gets say $450 for preparing a sentencing but a Crown solicitor gets 7 hours’ preparation time. The legal aid counsel gets 3 hours’ preparation time but the Crown solicitor gets 7 hours. We should not forget that the Crown solicitor has the police officer who prepared the file handing it to him or her on a plate and the Crown solicitor prepares the sentencing notes from that. The question was asked last night and I am trying my best to address it so I hope members will give me a little bit of indulgence. 
The next point though is that the legal aid solicitor gets say $450 for a sentencing. What does the Crown solicitor get? The Crown solicitor gets $1512 because he gets extra time. Let us have a look at travelling time—this is interesting. A legal aid solicitor gets half the hourly rate or pretty much a flat $70 an hour for travel if travel time is granted. But travel time is not granted for instance if the legal aid solicitor is working in a court that is away from his or her own patch. 
I have just come off the phone after talking to a bloke who happens to work in Wanganui. He has been asked by the Bar in Auckland to look after a particularly difficult murder trial. He will fly to Auckland and he will get a rental car but none of that will be paid for by the Legal Services Agency and his rate will be $165 an hour. He will not have his air fares paid or any travel time paid because he is working out of his own patch. But for instance if he was a Crown counsel and it was decided that he would go and move out of his patch all his expenses would be paid for including his accommodation his vehicle travel and his air travel. 
Dr Richard Worth 
: What does the Minister say to that? 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: I am answering some of the questions that the Minister asked last night.