Volume 622 Week 75 - Thursday 2 December 2004 
Volume 622 Week 75 - Thursday 2 December 2004 
[Volume:622;Page:17373] 
Thursday 2 December 2004 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Business Statement 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Next week in the House priority will be given to the remaining stages of the Civil Union Bill—subject to it passing the second reading today obviously—and Government notices of motion Nos 1 2 and 3. Following oral questions on Tuesday 7 December Kenneth Wang is scheduled to deliver his maiden speech. 
SIMON POWER (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 Could the Leader of the House advise which bills he intends to advance in the final sitting week of this year? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House) 
: 
 There are many bills in my plan in that respect. Obviously the ones that have to be done include the validation bill for regulations of various sorts such as the pension increases the Public Finance (State Sector Management) Bill the Aquaculture Reform Bill the Taxation (Annual Rates Venture Capital and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and any remaining stages of the Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Bill. Amongst others there may possibly be the Architects Bill and perhaps even the excise duty Bill—I have not talked to the United Future party about that yet. There are already seven first readings on the Order Paper with possibly more by Monday. 
Mr Speaker I also wish you a happy birthday. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Thank you very much. I also thank the Hon Roger Sowry the Hon Mark Gosche and John Banks. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: And it is my wedding anniversary too. 
Questions to Ministers 
Beneficiaries—Sickness and Invalid Beneficiaries 
1. GEORGINA BEYER (Labour—Wairarapa) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What is the Government doing to ensure people on sickness and invalids benefits have access to the rehabilitative services they need to enable them to return to work where possible? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Yesterday Annette King and I launched a partnership between Work and Income and the Capital and Coast District Health Board to support people on sickness and invalids benefits to get back to work. The programme has already been operating successfully in the Counties Manukau District Health Board region since April this year. We are already seeing results from our $20 million investment in helping people on sickness and invalids benefits return to work with a 17 percent increase in the number moving into full-time work and a 14 percent increase in the number entering part-time work. I congratulate the Ministry of Social Development and the two district health boards on bringing together this cutting-edge programme and look forward I hope to it being successfully rolled out across the country in the near future and to seeing many more people return to work. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What specific supports will be available to help people with psychiatric or psychological conditions return to employment? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The vast majority of people who experience mental ill health want to work and can do so with the right support. The Providing Access to Health Solutions (PATHS) programme will offer specially tailored clinical and social support for clients experiencing anxiety depression stress or similar mental health conditions to ensure a speedy return to employment. One barrier to employment we can all have a hand in removing is the barrier created by a fear of and prejudice against people with mental health conditions. Anybody who has seen the “one in five” advertisements on television will be aware that these disabilities often cannot be seen but can be a real barrier. Our understanding of these disabilities will ensure that those people do get back into the workplace. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Does the Minister agree that his Government’s rehabilitative services will have to improve vastly given its record that has seen the number of sickness beneficiaries rise from 33000 in 1999 to over 44000 in 2004 and the number of invalids beneficiaries increase from 51000 in 1999 to over 72000 in 2004? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes these figures are of concern. I note for example that during the time of the last National Government these benefit figures went up by 69 percent and 84 percent. Unlike that Government however we are doing something about this. As I said we have seen a 17 percent increase in the number of people going back into full-time employment and a 14 percent increase in the number of people going back into part-time employment. I know that the National Party is about to embrace this policy just as it did our superannuation policy. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: In light of the fact that the trial the Minister is claiming success for involves as I understand it fewer than 200 people why is he claiming this as a success when the number of adults supported by a sickness or invalids benefit has increased by 35 percent to almost 140000 people since he has been the Minister? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I mentioned before this is an issue that affects all OECD nations. In the 1990s we saw an increase of up to 84 percent in this area so I imagine that the member will applaud the fact that the 4700 people in the Wellington region who are eligible for this programme now will be part of a programme that has seen 17 percent more people going back into full-time employment and 14 percent more people going back into part-time employment. This is the first time the House has seen a turn-round in these figures—thanks to this good Government—and I imagine that everyone will want to adopt these policies very soon. 
Judy Turner 
: Does the Minister intend to move to a system whereby sickness and invalids beneficiaries will be required to seek treatment if it is appropriate to their incapacity particularly in response to the significant increase in the number of stress and depression cases which I raised for the first time early last year; if not why not? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: People who are on a sickness or invalids benefit are required to undergo visits to their doctor for assessment. They go straight away to get on to the benefit. They go after 13 weeks if they are on a sickness benefit and they are required to go back every 4 weeks after that. So they are required by that constant updating of their health status to get on with fixing their health needs. One of the good things about the PATHS programme is simply that in this region for example 4700 people will be working both with us and with their primary health organisation provider to improve their chances of going back to work. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister’s answer is already too long. 
Georgina Beyer 
: When was stress recognised as a distinct category of mental health condition for sickness and invalids benefit eligibility purposes? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Interestingly enough stress was recognised in 1995 as a distinct category of mental health condition. Having created the situation I can only think now that the National Party is about to flip-flop on that decision as well. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is the only warning today. 
Judy Turner 
: Why has an Official Information Act request made by United Future in August for progress reports on the Manukau case management pilot for sickness and invalid beneficiaries yet to receive a response from the Minister’s office and now that the matter is with the Ombudsman will he give a commitment to provide the information forthwith? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I have an agreement with the Ombudsman to get all those requests forthwith. 
Waterways—Public Access 
2.  
GERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister for Rural Affairs 
: Will the Government be making a decision on public access to waterways on private land before Christmas; if not when exactly will this decision be made? 
Hon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Rural Affairs) 
: 
 The Government is giving ongoing consideration to this issue and it is not possible to say whether decisions will be made before Christmas. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: Will the Minister rule out legislating for any right of the public to access private property before the next election; if not why not? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: It is not for me to rule in or rule out anything that is the prerogative of Cabinet. 
Mark Peck 
: Has the Minister heard any pronouncements on the introduction of legislation on public access to waterways? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: Yes. Mr Eckhoff MP has been attempting to foment public tumult and inciting rural people by falsely claiming legislation is to be introduced today. Mr Eckhoff and ACT must surely be embarrassed as it is clear that no legislation is being introduced by the Government today. Mr Eckhoff should apologise to rural people for those spurious allegations. 
Shane Ardern 
: Will the Minister today in the light of his answer rule out the possibility of landowners’ property rights being compromised in any way at any time in the future by this Government? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: The answer is as before. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Will the Government take any steps to ensure that public access over paper roads that are public property is protected and that adjoining landowners are prevented from fencing out the public and treating those roads as private property; if so what steps will it take? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: Public access to road reserves whether they are so-called paper roads or formed roads is absolutely protected by law already. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: What is the Minister’s view of the widespread belief that all Maori land will be exempt from any proposed legislation? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: I suppose the member would consider it a triumph that that completely false assertion—often made by him—is now accepted by many people as being authoritative. They are quite wrong. 
Occupational Shortages—Operation of List 
3.  
PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: Can he explain the purpose of the Occupational Shortages List and how is it operated? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Acting Minister of Immigration) 
: The purpose of the Occupational Shortages List is to enhance and streamline the processing of work permits and visas and approvals in principle for work permits or visas where there is a known regional labour market skills shortage. 
Peter Brown 
: Noting that answer is there any compulsion on any employer at all to convince the Department of Labour that it cannot employ anybody domestically before it can apply to fill the vacancy via that list? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: The Occupational Shortages List is reviewed every 6 months. Industries and employers can make submissions to that process. They have to convince the New Zealand Immigration Service that there is indeed a shortage of skilled workers in that particular area before they will get approval. 
Peter Brown 
: Will the Minister give a categorical assurance to this House that work conditions and employment opportunities for New Zealanders will not be abused as a result of this list; will he give us that assurance now and will he give us the assurance that if they are abused he will resign? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I will answer two of those questions. I can give an assurance that it is the highest priority of this Government to ensure that the best conditions and wages are apportioned to New Zealanders before we allow persons into the country through immigration to carry out jobs that would otherwise be carried out by New Zealanders. It is our priority and we will continue to have it that way. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Why is this Government so incompetent that it takes 8 weeks to get a work visa in Hamilton but fewer than 6 days in Sydney and fewer than 5 days in London? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Firstly this Government is not incompetent; the polls show that and New Zealanders understand that. There will be variations in processing time but the New Zealand Immigration Service moves very quickly. We have implemented a variations of conditions policy whereby 48 hours is all that is required to turn a visitor permit into a work permit in areas where there are identified skills and labour shortages. 
Prisoners—Trauma Counselling 
4.  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay Of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister for ACC 
: How many prison inmates are receiving counselling for trauma and for how long has each been receiving such counselling? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC) 
: 
 I regret that I am advised that the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) does not collect this information in a form that would allow me to provide a reliable and accurate answer. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Does the Government support double-murderers getting ACC counselling for trauma when they also receive extensive support from the Department of Correction’s psychological services? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As has always been the case under accident compensation legislation a person in prison is entitled to receive medical treatment physical rehabilitation and counselling. 
Helen Duncan 
: Is a person entitled to receive all accident compensation entitlements while he or she is an inmate in a penal institution? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: No. Under the Injury Prevention Rehabilitation and Compensation Act a person is not entitled to receive entitlements such as weekly compensation grants assessments or payments of lump sums while he or she is an inmate in any penal institution. 
Peter Brown 
: Is the Minister aware that there are some legitimate law-abiding New Zealanders who struggle to get through the accident compensation system yet this Government is allowing payments to be made to people in prison who have committed heinous crimes; how does she sleep at night knowing that? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The first question can be answered. The second is not really ministerial. 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I certainly hope that all claimants are treated in the same way and receive their entitlement as outlined in the legislation. 
Stephen Franks 
: What evidence is there that counselling for prisoners makes the slightest bit of difference to their mental health; is it not simply a way of making them feel better than they would otherwise feel during the time they are in prison? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I think that is a genuine debate that is occurring not just in the case of counselling for prisoners but in the case of counselling for all people. Accepted best practice currently in New Zealand is that counselling is beneficial. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Why do double-murderers get ACC-funded counselling for trauma but their victims who suffer every day do not? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In the same way as has always been the case under accident compensation legislation entitlement is available only for claimants. I can confirm also that the ACC-funded counselling is not related to the crime. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: How vile a crime does a man need to commit before this Government will stop that person from receiving ACC-funded counselling for trauma? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As has been the case for 30 years under all previous Governments during that time a person in prison is entitled to receive medical treatment and rehabilitation. 
School Staffing Review Group—Implementation 
5.  
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour—Waitakere) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What progress is he making implementing the recommendations of the School Staffing Review Group? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 With the addition of an extra 56 fulltime-equivalent teachers in area schools next year the number of extra teachers employed by this Government has now reached over 2600. Those teachers are over and above those required for roll growth and are a clear sign of our commitment to raise educational standards. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Why has increasing the number of teachers been prioritised above other possible spending in education? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Quality teachers can and do make the biggest difference to student achievement. When I became Minister in 1999 the sector identified three priority areas. The first was extra teachers the second was teacher professional development and the third was an initial increase in operational funding followed by an annual inflation adjustment. I am pleased to say that we have delivered. 
Simon Power 
: How can the Minister expect the New Zealand public to have confidence in the staffing of our schools when an Education Review Office report has confirmed that up to half of beginning secondary teachers and a third of beginning primary teachers are falling well below minimum teaching standards and when his officials yesterday confirmed that those incompetent teachers will nonetheless be endorsed with full registration by the New Zealand Teachers Council? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think the member is exaggerating somewhat. But could I draw a parallel and say that at least we do not put new incompetents into leadership positions in the way the National Party did. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no I want the question to be addressed please. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think it is fair to say that all of us agree that there is work to be done on initial teacher education and that there is more work to be done around registration. This Government has put time and resources into new teachers in a way the previous Government with Nick Smith as the Minister refused to do. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Is it not true that staffing improvements in the compulsory education sector have largely been used up on providing the guaranteed non-contact time extracted through collective agreement scraps and has had no impact on the real contact time teacher-pupil ratio? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: No that is not the case. In actual fact to date almost none of the time except in a very small group of schools has been used that way. Next year some of the time could well be but of course there have been very generous increases in secondary staffing for next year. 
Deborah Coddington 
: How can he claim success in school staffing when because of his totally inflexible regulations up to 60 percent of new primary school teachers are unemployed as they cannot teach in early childhood centres and the early childhood sector needs more than 2500 teachers? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: We have introduced as I think the member is aware conversion courses and are encouraging people currently in primary teacher training to convert their courses—and we are paying them to do so. The idea that any primary teacher can become the person in charge of an early childhood centre as promoted publicly by that member is just nonsense. 
Bernie Ogilvy 
: What progress has the Minister made in implementing the recommendation of the School Staffing Review Group to introduce a sabbatical scheme for teachers in return for continuous service—a measure that would provide an incentive for young teachers to make a long-term commitment to the profession? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I refer the member to the latest settlements of the agreements. 
Free-trade Agreement—ASEAN Countries 
6.  
ROD DONALD (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Will she reconsider the commitment she made in Laos to negotiate a free-trade agreement with ASEAN countries including Myanmar in light of comments from New Zealand Council of Trade Unions president Ross Wilson that there is a risk such deals will “permanently damage New Zealand’s manufacturing base”; if not why not? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister) 
: 
 No because I believe that the deal will contribute to the long-run prosperity of New Zealand. 
Rod Donald 
: Does she then agree with the chief executive of Fisher and Paykel Appliances John Bongard that free-trade benefits had to spread further than to just agricultural exports and what assurances will she give to the New Zealand manufacturing sector that any free-trade agreements with ASEAN or China would prevent the dumping of products or competition from subsidised manufactured goods? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The fact is that pretty much across the board tariffs on our exported manufactured goods into South-east Asia and China are higher than New Zealand’s tariffs on imported manufactured goods from South-east Asia and China. 
Dail Jones 
: What assurances can the Prime Minister give the low-paid workers of New Zealand that they will not lose their jobs as a result of free-trade agreements with a very low-wage economy like Laos and other low-wage countries remembering the way in which low-paid workers lost their jobs during the term of the 1984-90 Labour Government of which the Prime Minister was a part? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: With unemployment down to 3.8 percent our biggest problem in the labour market at the moment is labour shortage not labour surplus. In any case there is no prospect in New Zealand trying to compete at the bottom end of the wage and labour market with countries such as Laos and others. If we try to do that it will simply lead to lower wages in New Zealand. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Can the Prime Minister indicate to the House what the time frame is from here for the commencement and potential conclusions of negotiations with the ASEAN States and what particular concerns and interests New Zealand will be taking into those negotiations? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I understand that the negotiations are looking in terms of a timetable over about 2 years or so but then of course some years after that in terms of the phasing in of any agreement—as we have seen say within the United States - Australia free-trade agreement. There is a long phase-in period for certain elements. 
Rod Donald 
: Is it respectful to the thousands of Kiwi workers who will lose their jobs as a result of these trade deals to call them “adjustment challenges” as the Government did in its China trade-deal report and will she be directing her officials to use plain English in future and refer to human beings as human beings and lay-offs as lay-offs? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: There is no evidence to suggest that the job losses involved for some sectors will involve thousands of jobs. The Government’s strategy is about assisting sectors such as textiles clothing and footwear to move to the higher end of the market where New Zealand can compete. We cannot compete at the low to middle end of the market over the long term unless we wish to be a low to middle end wage country. 
Rod Donald 
: Will there be any adjustment challenges amongst her Ministers if it turns out that this new lot of trade deals is as bad as the Singapore one and results in New Zealand’s record $4 billion trade deficit getting even worse or will it be only Kiwi workers who will pay the price for the so-called free-trade agenda of this Government? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I have no doubt that the current trade deficit would be much worse had it not been for the successful conclusion of the Uruguay round in terms of the World Trade Organization and other agreements that New Zealand has entered into. Our present trade deficit in part of course is a long-term structural one added to by the low level of the United States dollar. It is also partly due at the moment to high levels of importation of equipment for business investment purposes. 
Keith Locke 
: Does she stand by her comments to the 1998 Labour Party conference that the then Prime Minister Jenny Shipley “prefers to build links to oppression while democratic voices are silenced in jail”; if so why is she herself building economic links with the oppressive military dictatorship in Burma while democracy campaigner Aung San Suu Kyi is further silenced by having her house arrest extended for another year? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Contrary to what is being said in this context the Prime Minister has already since the conference condemned the further extension of Aung San Suu Kyi’s detention and there is no question that the Prime Minister has also raised the issue of human rights in the Vientiane conference. Were we to live in splendid isolation in a country of 4 million low-paid peasants our voice would be worthless in the world. 
Rod Donald 
: How can it be just or right for New Zealand to negotiate a preferential trade deal with the Burmese military regime given that it is a brutal dictatorship responsible for forced labour child labour trafficking in prostitution and the imprisonment of political prisoners and that Burma is the world’s largest producer of illegal opium or are there no ethical bottom lines in this Government’s trade policy? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Negotiations are with ASEAN as a whole of which Burma is an extraordinarily tiny part in terms of gross domestic product. ASEAN itself is starting to raise human rights issues within its context and close relationships with functioning and longstanding democracies such as Australia and New Zealand will no doubt assist the more progressive forces within ASEAN. 
Resource Management Act—Law Society Comments 
7.  
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
 to the  
Associate Minister for the Environment 
: Why should the public have any confidence in the latest reforms to the Resource Management Act 1991 when the New Zealand Law Society has stated: “Overall far from a set of proposals which will reduce costs and delays being incurred under the RMA the net result from our collective experience we have no doubt will be worse for everyone—councils industry community groups and ordinary members of the public.”? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 The public has confidence because the reforms are timely sensible and well-thought-out. Dr Smith quotes from a letter from the Law Society’s Derek Nolan Convener of the Environmental Law Committee to me dated 16 September 2004. But the member seems not to be in possession of all the facts. Specifically a month later in a later letter dated 21 October this year which I intend to table for the member’s illumination Mr Nolan stated: “We confirm that as a result of ongoing dialogue with officials on the RMA reform proposals many of the earlier concerns held by the Environmental Law Committee appear to have been addressed or reduced in importance.” 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Is the Minister aware of the public statement made this week on Tuesday by close Government ally Mr Dick Hubbard when he said that the Government’s reforms did not go nearly far enough to address the infrastructure problems in Auckland; if so why is the Government choosing to ignore the newly elected Auckland mayor? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am aware of the statement inasmuch as I have heard it referred to although I have yet to see it myself. But I am aware of the comment made by the Buller District Council Planning and Regulatory Services Manager Terry Archer who said in the  
Westport News 
 on 17 September: “Where the hell were these things in 1991 when they introduced the RMA? It would have made it so much easier.” 
Lianne Dalziel 
: Did the Law Society have anything further to say about the reform proposals? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Yes. The Law Society went on to say: “The committee acknowledges the policy decision made by Cabinet that Government intends to remove the mandatory obligation on the Environment Court to conduct appeals as a hearing de novo. It is agreed that this change could well lead to savings in cost.” 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: How on earth will this proposed set of amendments to the Resource Management Act reduce costs and delays when the Minister’s own press release today outlines at length the additional processes involved and indeed describes the bill as “a package of measures reflecting a stronger leadership role for central government”; why should we not agree with the analysis of the Law Society? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: The proposal will clearly reduce the length of time and the cost of the process. It can best be explained in the words of Mr Basil Morrison President of Local Government New Zealand: “We agree with the Government that more education is needed on resource management and the Resource Management Act. While many people may complain about the current Act it in fact compares well internationally. Compliance costs are 10 to 15 percent less than in Australia and we are required to lodge fewer than half the number of applications for consent than in Australia. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: What is meant exactly by “national interest” because his bill fails to define it and can he confirm that under the bill any application that he thinks is in the so-called national interest can be approved by his appointees instead of the council and with no right of appeal to the Environment Court? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: In answer to the second question no. In answer to the first question the capacity to identify the national interest is the new element introduced in the package. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: How will the problem of costs and delays with the Resource Management Act be fixed by allowing the 95 percent of consents or 47000 per year that are non-notified to be open to appeal to the Environment Court? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: It is false to suggest the Act is delaying the process or that development is hamstrung. In 2003 the New Zealand economy grew 3.5 percent against an OECD average of 2.2 percent. In fact growth has been significantly higher in New Zealand compared with most other OECD countries for some years now. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was very specific. The bill introduced today includes a very specific provision that allows for consents that are non-notified to be appealed to the Environment Court. The Minister made no attempt to address my question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is fair comment. The Minister will address the question. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Dr Smith is confused. The capacity to shift the appeal on non-notification is an Order in Council process available to the Minister under the bill. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why is he proposing changes to consent hearings that will make it much more difficult and expensive for groups like the Cape Kidnappers Protection Society which yesterday won a decision to protect that iconic headland from a luxury resort development—which did not comply with the plan—thus overturning a decision by a council which the court described as having an uncompromisingly partisan stance in support of the proposal? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Nothing in the package of proposals would make that appeal process any more difficult. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Will the Minister stand by the assurance given to the Local Government and Environment Committee by the Minister for the Environment Marian Hobbs that there will be no truncation of the normal select committee process as a consequence of this bill after its first reading given the bill has been introduced 4 months late by this Minister? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I would be keen to ensure the maximum time available was permitted. That may or may not be the case depending on the operations of the House. 
Telephone Services—Deaf Hearing-impaired and Speech-impaired 
8.  
DAVE HEREORA (Labour) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Communications 
: What has the Government done to make telephone services available to deaf hearing-impaired and speech-impaired people? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Communications) 
: 
 Recently Ruth Dyson and I launched New Zealand Relay which is a telephone service for deaf hearing-impaired and speech-impaired people. For the first time this community will be able to pick up a telephone and stay in touch with friends family and employers. It lets them participate in society as equals. The service is the result of a lot of work between the Deaf community the Government and the telecommunications industry. 
Dave Hereora 
: How many people will benefit from the use of this service? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Ruth Dyson and I expect that most of the estimated 7000 New Zealanders who are deaf or have a significant hearing impairment will want to use this service. For each person a whole network of friends and family and service providers will be able to stay in touch in a way that most of us take for granted. This Government is committed to having an inclusive society and that means creating the opportunity for deaf and hearing-impaired people to participate fully in the use of telecommunications. 
Refugees—Failed Status Claimants in New Zealand 
9.  
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: How many of the failed refugee status claimants who entered New Zealand between 1 January 2001 and 30 September 2004 with false lost or destroyed travel documentation are still in New Zealand and why? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Acting Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 Of the 966 claimants who entered with false lost or destroyed passports 329 failed claimants are still in New Zealand. 
Dail Jones 
: What is he doing about making sure that those 330-odd claimants are sent back; and when people arrive in New Zealand with false lost or stolen travel documentation can the Immigration Service be sure that they are who they eventually claim to be and if it cannot be sure is he not concerned that he may be allowing our national security to be threatened by this lack of certainty and removal action by his Immigration Service? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: It is important to say that of the 329 failed claimants 259 have appeals or applications under consideration and/or hold valid permits and 79 are recorded as being unlawfully in New Zealand. In the last Budget this Government committed $19.8 million to boost our intelligence capacity to work with other countries to make sure that we do know who is coming to this country. This Government implemented the Advance Passenger Processing system which checks people coming to New Zealand before they board an aircraft. That is something we have done that the previous National Government neglected to do. 
Dail Jones 
: What is the Minister doing about his obviously failed new service which is allowing so many of these people into the country; and how many of the 438 people who came here between January 2001 and September 2004 with false lost or destroyed travel documents and who have been found to be refugees have subsequently applied to have family member join them in New Zealand how many family members have they brought in and if he does not have the answers why not? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I cannot give the member the answers now but I am perfectly willing to provide those details to that member if he asks for them in written form. We are doing everything we can to ensure we uphold the security of this country. That is why we put extra money in. The number of people coming into this country and claiming refugee status has declined drastically since we have been in Government and we intend to keep it that way. 
Justice Associate Minister—Confidence 
10.  
Hon PETER DUNNE (Leader—United Future) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have confidence in her Associate Minister of Justice the Hon David Benson-Pope; if so why? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: How can the Prime Minister continue to have confidence in that Minister when last week he erroneously claimed with regard to the Civil Union Bill that “the only party in Parliament who have not made this issue a conscience vote was United Future.” was corrected on that assertion yesterday by the Acting Prime Minister in the House then repeated the same claim on  
Morning Report 
 this morning and when challenged by the interviewer said: “I’m not aware of any inaccuracies in what I’ve said.”? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: My understanding is that in the interview this morning Mr Benson-Pope acknowledged that in fact the United Future party did have a conscience vote on the issue and as the member rightly says he corrected that statement in the House—on Tuesday I think it was. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Why would the Prime Minister have confidence in Mr David Benson-Pope when he publicly made erroneous statements about the Civil Union Bill and United Future’s position and when he also told the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society of New Zealand that he had no list of projects suitable for a non-local decision-making process when he did; and if that is how the Government treats its friends how will it treat its enemies? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I would have thought that that member would know by now how we treat our enemies. 
Dail Jones 
: Why does the Prime Minister have any confidence in the Hon David Benson-Pope when that Minister expresses utter confidence in public support for the Civil Union Bill yet refuses to have a citizens initiated referendum on the issue as requested by New Zealand First so that all New Zealanders can have their say on it—not just members in this House? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I think the member made a slip. I do not think he meant a citizens initiated referendum; I think he meant the proposals to have a referendum on the bill—a binding referendum as a result of the bill should it pass. It has not been the practice in New Zealand at all to have binding referenda on any matters other than those— 
Brian Connell 
: Just change it. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Oh is that the National Party’s flip-flop now? I am sure that that member would like to suggest to his leader that binding referenda should be held on State asset sales in the future—if there is ever a National Government again. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Does the Prime Minister consider that Mr Benson-Pope’s continued misrepresentation of United Future’s position on the Civil Union Bill is in accord with the principles of the agreement between United Future and the Labour Party to operate on a good-faith basis? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I understand that the Deputy Prime Minister has already indicated to Mr Benson-Pope that there is a need to be careful in these relationships and in fact that the Government’s position is that the United Future party is operating a conscience vote. Of course I remember in this House previously a party that claimed to be operating a conscience vote. Its members all operated in the same way once they were sure the numbers were safely there to make sure the bill passed. That concerned the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in 1986. 
Taxation—Full-time Workers on 39c Rate 
11.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What percentage of full-time workers are expected to pay some tax at the 39 cent tax rate in the 2004-05 financial year? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 I am advised that the figure is 22 percent. 
Rodney Hide 
: Will the Minister of Finance give any consideration to a tax cut for hard-working Kiwis as a Christmas bonus especially as the current Prime Minister promised in her 1999 campaign’s opening address that only “5 percent of earners” would pay extra tax? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The Government does not make the strange assumption that only people earning over $60000 a year are hard-working New Zealanders. I know quite a few people—in this House even—who earn over $60000 and whom I would not regard as hard-working and I know large numbers of people earning under $60000 who are very hard-working. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was quite specifically about the consideration of tax cuts; it was not about who is hard-working and who is not. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the Minister addressed the question. 
Clayton Cosgrove 
: What proportion of full-time workers were paying the top rate in the 1999-2000 tax year? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: In 1999 the proportion was 41 percent. Of course if the ACT party’s flat tax rate were adopted 100 percent of workers would be paying the top tax rate. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: There would also be 100 percent paying the bottom rate. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: That is right. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Does the Minister stand by his comments that “Ninety-five percent of people will not be asked to pay more tax. Instead only the top 5 percent of income earners will pay more.”; if not why not? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: When the policy was released that was in fact the estimated proportion of the population that was earning under $60000 a year. That 95 percent is now 89 percent—11 percent of income earners are in the top tax bracket. I would finally point out that the OECD report out only 2 days ago warns strongly against any fiscal stimulus in New Zealand in the current macroeconomic environment. A tax cut is a fiscal stimulus. 
Peter Brown 
: Does the Minister have a clear conscience knowing that he is taxing New Zealanders to the hilt that he is gaining huge windfall tax gains and further that he is about to tax the New Zealand motorist a further 5c a litre on petrol; how does he justify such an approach—or is it the Tottenham Hotspurs connection coming out in him? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The first two questions can be answered. The third part I might have sympathy with. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes we did lose last weekend Mr Speaker. As I pay the top tax rate on 70 percent of my income I have a very clear conscience on this matter. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Has the Minister carried out or seen any analysis that indicates the drop in the number of taxpayers on the 39c rate that would result from United Future’s proposal to adjust the present $60000 threshold for inflation to a new level of $68000; if so how many fewer people would that be? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I do not have that exact number in front of me. I think the member has it in the answer to a written question that he submitted to me. The issue becomes in part at that point that if tax cuts are regarded as appropriate or macroeconomically sensible why would one simply concentrate on the upper end of the income scale unless one suffered from this strange ACT party belief that only people on high incomes are hard-working? 
Kenneth Wang 
: What percentage of workers does he think should pay the top rate of tax? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am quite happy if 11 percent of income earners pay the top rate of tax just as that member is quite happy to have a policy where everybody pays exactly the same rate of tax no matter what his or her income is. 
Rodney Hide 
: I seek leave to table in the House the Rt Hon Helen Clark’s “leadership integrity vision” speech where she promised that only the top 5 percent of earners would be paying any more. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Accident Compensation—Helicopter Services 
12.  
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Port Waikato) 
 to the  
Minister for ACC 
: Does she agree with ACC policy that has resulted in ACC declining to pay the helicopter expenses of rescuing a badly injured shepherd in Central Otago; if so why? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC) 
: 
 In this case it is difficult to determine which is the more appropriate action: to financially reimburse the helicopter pilot for going to the aid of an injured person or to strictly adhere to the 111 call policy. It is important though that the safety issues take priority in any situation. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Does she believe that the employees at the Alexandra Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) office who supported Mr Burdon’s claim were like the majority of New Zealanders unaware that in a remote rescue they needed to call 111; if not why does she believe that they disagreed with ACC’s head office and believed that compensation should be awarded to Mr Burdon? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I am confident that the local ACC staff were aware of the 111 call policy which is in place so that properly equipped and trained personnel respond to an injury. But I understand as I said in the answer to the primary question that it is a difficult balance as to whether to financially compensate the person who went to the aid of the injured person or to strictly adhere to the 111 call policy. 
Helen Duncan 
: Can the Minister tell the House why ACC insists that emergency requests for air ambulances come through the 111 system? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I certainly can. It does so because it is safer. ACC contracts with services that are medically equipped for emergencies have trained personnel aboard and can communicate with local hospitals and other services as required. To send a poorly equipped ill-trained rescue vehicle could in fact threaten the life of an injured person rather than assist that person. 
Peter Brown 
: How does the cost of the helicopter that is referred to compare with the costs paid for the treatment of the prisoner in jail who is receiving accident compensation treatment? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I regret I have not come to the House prepared with that calculation. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Why is ACC planning to cut the number of air ambulance services to only seven major centres in New Zealand and what will the Minister do if someone has a serious accident at the top of the East Coast and dies because the aircraft could not reach him or her in time? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I believe that that sort of scaremongering is totally inappropriate when a discussion document was released for consultation only yesterday. I would prefer to hear the results of submissions to that document and then to consider the issue properly. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Is the Minister then prepared to take note of the view of an experienced helicopter pilot who says: “No way could a helicopter from Hamilton get a badly injured person from Whakatane or Gisborne to a hospital in within 1 hour especially if they have to wait for a local emergency 111 service to decide if a helicopter may be called. People will die.”? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Yes I certainly will listen to the views of that experienced helicopter pilot. 
Civil Union Bill 
Second Reading 
Mr SPEAKER 
: In this debate I will be doing two things. First as this is an important conscience debate I will not allow interjections. I think the speeches must be heard in silence. We must allow people who have differing points of view to put their case and to put their case as they wish to put it. Secondly I will be calling members from parties in the usual order for Government bills. I know there are more members who wish to participate in the debate than there are speaking slots available. I therefore remind members that a 10-minute call can be shared with another member of the same party—see Standing Order 117(2). Members may wish to share their call and have two 5-minute calls instead of one 10-minute call. I would appreciate knowing at the start of the particular speech if they wish to do that. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Justice) 
: 
 I move  
That the Civil Union Bill be now read a second time 
. New Zealand is justifiably proud of its record on issues of human rights. It was over 11 years ago that New Zealand passed the Human Rights Act which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of family status marital status and sexual orientation. This bill is one of the most important pieces of human rights legislation to be considered by the House since. Today we have an opportunity to stop talking the talk and to walk into the reality of that shared vision for this country. 
The Civil Union Bill is not about being politically correct. It is about doing the correct thing—period. It is about human rights and recognising and valuing the choices of people within our society. Saying no to civil unions is to say that it is OK to discriminate against people who choose for whatever reason not to marry or who in fact cannot marry. Saying no to civil unions is to say some relationships are “first-class” but other loving committed stable relationships are for some inexplicable reason of lesser value. Saying no to civil unions is saying some people deserve only the seats in the back of the bus. And I find that an intolerable proposition. 
The Civil Union Bill enables couples both opposite-sex and same-sex to formalise their relationships in a way legally equivalent to marriage. Couples have said there are many reasons for deciding that marriage is not appropriate for them. What we know for certain however is that over 330000 New Zealanders—one in five of all New Zealanders living in a relationship—have not married. For these couples the availability of a civil union will offer choice. It will also offer certainty about their relationship status. 
 We should not be surprised however that much more emphasis has been placed not on what the Civil Union Bill offers opposite-sex couples but rather on what it offers same-sex couples. Same-sex couples do not have the option of marriage. So it is no surprise that for them the availability of civil union takes on an even greater importance. These are New Zealanders in loving relationships often relationships that they have been in for decades but who throughout that time have been denied the opportunity to make a legally recognised public declaration of their commitment. 
Human beings describe themselves by and their identity is very closely bound to the relationships they have. Discrimination against people by denying recognition of their most important relationship is a heavy burden indeed. Love trust intimacy and commitment are to be found at the heart of all good relationships. There is no good argument for allowing only opposite-sex couples to formalise their relationships and to deny that right to same-sex couples. 
Denise Irvine in a recent  
Waikato Times 
 article encapsulated this principle with feeling and sensitivity. On learning that a distant family member was gay but tragically had never been able to live openly as a gay man she wrote: “I also learnt that gay men and women are not ‘others’ not people with no faces and no names who should live on the margins spoken of as some amorphous flock who will destroy our very existence. Those who oppose the Civil Union Bill have frequently talked about its dire effect on families. And yet gay men and women are family. They’re much loved sons and daughters sisters and brothers cousins aunts and uncles part of the inner circle not the outer.” This House must seize this opportunity to support family and say plainly that no one deserves to be excluded simply because of his or her sexual orientation. 
I am aware that there are those often motivated by religious convictions who believe that same-sex intimate relationships are immoral and that those relationships should be discouraged at every turn. They are of course entitled to hold such views and to express them. As we tolerate the right of this minority to disagree—and let us be clear that they are quite a small minority of New Zealanders—I would welcome as would this community a reciprocal tolerance. Not all people of religious belief I hasten to add feel this way. The Superintendent of the Dunedin Methodist Parish the Rev. Ken Russell recently wrote: “The Civil Union Bill is not about morals but about justice before the law. I for one heartily support a measure that encourages empowers and protects couples who want to make their relationships loving long term stable and committed. We embrace such relationships among our Parish. They threaten none of us but embrace and enrich us all.” As one of the submitters to the Justice and Electoral Committee said: “People who speak against the bill don’t know lesbians and gays in relationships. Their comments are based on fear.” It is time for that small section of society with strong feelings against the lifestyles of same-sex couples to stop being afraid. 
Regardless of the sincerity of such beliefs or those people’s strength of conviction it is the duty of the State to reflect the much wider interests of our society and the common values of fairness and tolerance that bind us together. These points have not escaped many of New Zealand’s opinion writers. The  
Press 
 wrote: “The emotive accusations about the erosion of marriage will be shown to have been so much scaremongering. Most fair-minded New Zealanders will instead see the measure as either no big deal or as a positive affirmation of both choice and tolerance.” The  
Nelson Mail 
 wrote: “Homophobic reaction aside the Civil Union Bill is about acceptance. It is about recognising differences and letting people be themselves. For that reason it should be backed.” The  
Otago Daily Times 
 wrote: “The Civil Union Bill acknowledges long-standing societal realities: that couples do live together; that children are sometimes born outside of formal marriage; and that discrimination is unlawful and morally repugnant.” The  
Marlborough Express 
 wrote: “Parliament like society is made up of all sorts of people—gay heterosexual and transsexual. They are single married separated and divorced. They have to be tolerant of one another’s differing views in the House. Supporting the bill would show they are also tolerant of others as they go about their lives.” Finally the  
New Zealand Herald 
 wrote: “Parliament should pass this bill conscious of all the social implications. It will be a landmark for human rights and its time has arrived.” 
Nor have these points escaped New Zealanders themselves. The most recent poll the  
Herald 
-DigiPoll of 2 October showed that only 39 percent of New Zealanders opposed the introduction of civil unions. In fact that figure shows little change from other polls earlier in the year which showed only a third of New Zealanders were uneasy with civil unions. 
As one commentator put it this is a bill appropriate to its times. That is because what is being proposed here is neither particularly radical nor particularly unusual in a local or international context. Only recently same-sex couples across England Wales and Northern Ireland gained the right to publicly register their relationship in a similar manner to what is being proposed here when a vote in the House of Lords was passed by a majority of 251 votes to 136. Scotland is expected to adopt such a law in the near future. Indeed over the past 15 years we have seen a growing number of liberal democratic societies introducing statutory registration arrangements. The trend has also started to become apparent in English-speaking countries with which New Zealand commonly compares its legal and political institutions: Canada Australia and the United States. 
President George Bush while strongly of the view that marriage is only for a man and a woman—which is and will remain the law in New Zealand—said on 25 October this year that he felt same-sex couples should have the right to civil unions if states where they live make that possible. I quote: “I don’t think we should deny people rights to a civil union a legal arrangement if that’s what a state chooses to do.” As the Justice and Electoral Committee which considered this bill discovered New Zealand’s approach is moderate and entirely in keeping with international trends. 
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the select committee its chair—Tim Barnett—and my predecessor the Hon Lianne Dalziel for all the work they have put in not only in regard to this bill but also in regard to its companion legislation the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill. The bills were considered together because they are a package tightly connected. Together they provide statutory and non-statutory recognition of and protection to this new relationship status. The committee has recommended relatively few amendments to the bill. But those it has recommended have I think significantly improved it. 
The passage of this bill together with the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill will mark the culmination of a long march marked by the passage of the Human Rights Act in 1993 and even before that the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1984. This journey has taken us beyond a situation in which homosexual activity was criminalised through what has at times been only a grudging tolerance of same-sex couples through to the point where same-sex couples will finally be accorded genuinely equal respect and recognition. 
 I am aware that there are those who contend that this bill is simply catering to the demands of a small minority. On the contrary what this bill does is extend to that minority rights that most of us take for granted. The passage of this bill will remove a form of discrimination that is keenly felt by Kiwis who have been living quietly in long-term loving same-sex relationships in our communities. The passage of this bill will help to foster a positive human rights culture in which human beings regardless of their sexual orientation are shown the dignity and respect to which they are entitled. The passage of this bill will remove a form of discrimination that has no place in the inclusive tolerant and open-minded society that New Zealand is. I strongly commend the bill to the House. 
Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition) 
: 
 When the Civil Union Bill and the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill were introduced into the House some months ago I voted for both of them to go to the Justice and Electoral Committee. I voted for the Civil Union Bill because I saw merit in same-sex couples having a legal framework within which they could manage their lives and commit to each other. I voted for the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill also because it was clearly a companion to the Civil Union Bill. But I did so with my fingers crossed because I was and am very uneasy about the State deeming de facto couples to be married. 
Today I will vote against the Civil Union Bill at its second reading. It is very clear from the thousands of submissions to the select committee the large number of people who have spoken to me directly and the many hundreds of emails and letters I have received that many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders—indeed probably millions of New Zealanders—see this bill as a major attack on the institution of marriage. Despite the fact that many of us have failed from time to time to honour the institution of marriage in our own behaviour most people continue to recognise that that institution is fundamental to our society and in particular to the nurturing of children. This bill is seen by many New Zealanders as a serious attack on that institution. 
More generally this bill is seen as part of a broader Government agenda to change the moral and social institutions of our society. That makes a great number of New Zealanders very uneasy indeed. I do not believe that this Parliament should lend its support to that agenda. How is the Government seeking to advance that agenda? Firstly it seems intent on pushing the bill through Parliament in considerable haste—potentially under urgency next week. Why? It is hard to avoid the impression that the Government is doing so because it is concerned that if this bill drags on in public debate and in particular if it drags on into the election year it may cost it votes. 
Secondly we should not be changing one of the fundamental institutions of our society on the slimmest of parliamentary majorities. The Government scrapped our links with the Privy Council with a tiny majority. The Government changed the law regarding prostitution on the abstention of a single member. Now it looks likely that if the Civil Union Bill passes at all it will pass with the slimmest of majorities. For such a major change in our social infrastructure that simply is not good enough. 
Thirdly we are being asked to vote on this bill without even having the bill’s companion legislation the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill before us in order that we can understand the full implications of what could be involved in passing the Civil Union Bill. The Government rightly introduced the two bills together but now the second of those pieces of legislation is nowhere to be seen with talk of it not coming back to the House until well into next year and possibly not until after the next election. How can any member be expected to vote on the Civil Union Bill without knowing the shape of the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill? 
Neither members of Parliament nor journalists or commentators have any special knowledge or superior judgment as compared with our fellow citizens on such crucial institutions as the family and marriage. Accordingly I believe that there should be a referendum on this issue so that all adult New Zealanders have an opportunity to express their view on it. Let me be clear that if a referendum were held I would vote in favour of allowing same-sex couples to form some kind of legally binding relationship. I am heterosexual but I am not homophobic. I do not regard homosexuality as a terrible sin but rather as a predisposition that some people are born with. As far as we are aware Jesus Christ never spoke of homosexuality let alone condemned it. But a decision to provide in law what is essentially a form of marriage to same-sex couples is a decision that all adult New Zealanders should have the right to express a view on. For that reason I will not vote for this bill today. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I advise members that it has been indicated to me that the next speech will be a split one. I seek the leave of the House that the 11th call be 5 minutes for National and 5 minutes for New Zealand First. Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none. 
LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I sat on the Justice and Electoral Committee which considered this bill and I want to acknowledge the hundreds of people who appeared in person and the thousands who made written submissions. I particularly thank those who shared their own thoughts and feelings rather than copied words off a website designed to present fiction as fact and to invoke fear and loathing in the minds of decent New Zealanders. 
 I call them decent New Zealanders because I heard each one of them express love for their country love for their husband or wife and love for their children but at the same time they expressed sadness for something intangible something they felt this bill would take from them. They told us at the Justice and Electoral Committee that their own marriages would not be affected by civil union but maybe it would change something about the way our country was in the future. They expressed concern that the Christian teachings by which they were raising their children would be undermined by civil union. But I know that the Christian values they teach their children are undermined when they turn on the television set every day of the week. 
I have been saddened by the extent of intolerance extended against one minority by another and they are a minority. Not one submitter who was opposing the bill told the select committee how he or she had personally been harmed by the existence of gay and lesbian couples in our communities. Therefore not one submitter was able to warn of any harm that would arise if the State gave recognition to relationships that will continue to exist de facto rather than de jure if the law does not pass. 
Civil union like marriage is not compulsory. It is simply providing an option that does not exist now. Many submitters who came with the Maxim Institute website list of 10 reasons to oppose the Civil Union Bill said the institution of marriage would be undermined by civil union but none said how. I mention the Maxim Institute because at least it had the integrity to make a submission to the select committee unlike others who got their children to march against so-called bad people. 
I want to comment about people using their children. Here is a fax I received yesterday from someone in my electorate: “Dear Ms Dalziel re: the Civil Union Bill and the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill. I need my mum and my dad because they help me a lot with the things I have to do. My mum helps me with my school work. My dad helps out the family by earning money. Please vote against these bills.”—he signed his name—“Age 7”. A 7-year-old was made by his parents to write a letter to his member of Parliament about something he knows nothing of. 
It seems as if the strategy was to say that because the majority of New Zealanders support civil union but oppose gay marriage let us call it “gay marriage” so that we can build a body of opposition to it. But it is not gay marriage. It provides an alternative to marriage for those who cannot marry because they are the same sex or choose not to marry for whatever reason. 
We heard from the “Maximites” that gay men were more promiscuous than other people yet they would deny them recognition of the relationship that surely like marriage would support people in committed and long-term relationships. We also heard from the “Maximites” that children needed a mum and a dad and that this would lead to gay and lesbian couples parenting children. The response is that they already do. Gay and lesbian couples came to the select committee with their children—both young and adult children—who asked us why some people did not want them to call themselves a family. How do we respond to a question like that? They asked for recognition of their relationships for the sake of their children. 
The “Maximites” told us that children needed a mother and a father. But as the Justice and Electoral Committee reported the research either was not relevant to the question or in fact they misquoted the outcomes. Children do suffer in same-sex relationship families but only from the vicarious stigma they inherit from the way their parents are treated by other people. 
Then we had the submissions and emails that repeated all the nonsense we heard during the debate on the Human Rights Act in 1993. I said I would read one out if I had time: “Dear member of Parliament Homophobia homophobia if not why not? The Catholic investigation report in the USA reveals that over 80 percent of the paedophiles are homosexuals. Is it an emotional disorder to fear paedophiles? If the homosexual agenda is fully implemented heaven forbid then the crime of paedophilia would disappear because one of their stated goals is to legalise paederasty man-child relationships.” That is the sort of absurd nonsense that has been driving the other side of the debate. I ask members to support the bill. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I am pleased to take a call on the second reading of the Civil Union Bill as another member of the Justice and Electoral Committee. We heard a large number of submissions and I thank all the submitters for the way they engaged with the members of the select committee; I know that Labour members of the select committee have received a number of emails from submitters mostly opposed to the bill thanking us for our engagement with them at the select committee. 
This bill is not about marriage. Submitters and members of the committee opposed to this bill were quite clear about what they believed the role and properties of marriage to be. None of them are found in the Marriage Act. The Marriage Act says nothing about the nurturing and raising of children nothing about being a cornerstone of society nothing about exclusivity and monogamy—just as well—nothing about love and nothing about religion. All these are parts of the culture of marriage developed over centuries. Marriage is so much more than the sterile Marriage Act which does not reflect the modern reality of marriage. So the Civil Union Bill basing its administrative procedures on the Marriage Act hardly makes it marriage. 
Marriage does not have the monopoly on exclusivity and stability. Many de facto relationships are more exclusive and stable than some marriages. We should be supporting strong stable relationships not deciding which strong stable relationships we like and which ones we do not like. All relationships are not equal but it is simplistic and misleading to say “marriage good de facto bad”. It depends entirely on the individuals in that relationship. 
This bill will not have a detrimental effect on marriage. It will be used by those who cannot and those who will not marry now. We heard from many in the latter category through oral and written submissions. Denmark has had such legislation since 1989 and far from seeing a disintegration of marriage its rates have continued to rise unabated and are now the highest they have been since the early 1970s. In fact all across Scandinavia where such laws are common trends in marriage cohabitation single parents and divorce have been unaffected by the introduction of alternative relationship recognition laws. 
Those opposed to this bill claim allowing gay people access to a parallel structure will bring marriage into disrepute. Yet in reality we are not at all choosy about whom we allow to marry. They do not even have to know each other. Let us talk about that for a while. I did a search on some websites: the Maxim Institute the Destiny New Zealand political party the Society for Promotion of Community Standards and the United Future websites. 
 How many press releases did I find criticising a radio station competition wedding of two people who did not even know each other? None! How many press releases did I find that criticised the marriage of Scott Watson a convicted murderer whilst in prison? None! Apparently it is only when gay people want to do it that all of a sudden there is that grave concern for the reputation of marriage even where the relationships are as loving and as committed as the best heterosexual unions out there. How would members of this House feel if they were told a murderer was more deserving of relationship rights than they were? 
In numerical terms heterosexual couples stand to benefit the most from this bill but the focus of the committee was squarely on gay people. Throughout history gay people have been blamed for everything from child abuse to an email I got today blaming them for global warming. It is surreal that in this day and age this Parliament still feels the need to have its proverbial witch to burn at the stake although it is a lot easier than having to face up to some of the real issues facing New Zealand families in New Zealand society. 
I spent months researching many of the issues. Opponents of the bill claim that gay people are not capable of long-term relationships because somehow they are just different to us monogamous pure chaste heterosexuals. Putting aside the obvious conflict that to assume they are wired differently when it comes to monogamy seems a concession that homosexuality is biological that is so ridiculous it is almost funny. I do not know how many long-term committed couples had to appear before our committee before opponents who claim that they are the exception to the rule realised that their rule is wrong. They rely on studies from the 1970s with samples collected in gay pick-up bars as proof that gays will only bring disrepute to a monogamous institution. Those of us who have gay friends and family many of whom are in long-term relationships know that this is not only completely untrue but completely offensive. 
Some members of this House say that they do not want to promote gay parenting. Let us put this in perspective. Most gay couples do not have children. American census statistics put the rate at about two per 1000. Those who do have kids or want kids will not stop if this bill does not pass. Research is clear that children do do better in two-parent families but whether that two-parent family is heterosexual or homosexual does not matter. Members should look at the research. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is a 10-minute call. 
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
: 
 As a New Zealand First member of Parliament I have the right to vote according to my conscience on this bill. In doing so it would seem that I need not represent any other New Zealander. I believe that marriage is a relationship of a man and a woman with a view to having children. It is very simple. I do not need any research to prove or disprove that simple statement. I will vote against this bill. 
I suppose I should feel rather flattered that certain types of people who cannot live in a male-female relationship wish to copy that relationship. I am not flattered. The relationship of a man and a woman is a natural relationship of two opposites. The attempt in this legislation to pretend that two people of the same sex can ever form a relationship equal to that of two people from opposite sexes is doomed to failure. But Parliament can do anything. Parliament can make black white create systems of apartheid and prevent women from being educated and this Parliament has made mothers fathers of children in the Care of Children Bill. The laws of nature continue regardless of anything Parliament might make believe to be otherwise. A marriage can only be that of a man and a woman. It is unique. If it was capable of being copyrighted it would be. But there is no need to copyright something that is so natural. 
I made my views on homosexuality known to the public before I stood for Parliament in 1975. I repeated them in my maiden speech in this House in 1976. I see no reason to change my views. What one sees and hears from me is what one gets. But am I fit to represent the people of New Zealand on this subject? As the dictionary states “fit” means “well adapted or suited in a suitable condition ready good enough”. Perhaps I am not. I do not have an open mind on this issue. That is why I am delighted as a member of New Zealand First to be able to say that this matter should be put to a referendum for open discussion and debate. Why should the people of New Zealand be forced to accept my possibly right-wing biased rednecked conservative out-of-this-world and off-this-planet view on this issue? My views are not necessarily just Christian views; they are also based on the fact that I was born and brought up in a Muslim country Pakistan and some of the standards required of Muslims—namely respect for the elderly respect for the family and respect for male and female relationships and high standards of decency—might have rubbed off on me. So why should my views bind those of the rest of New Zealand? 
I look across to the other side of the House when Tim Barnett is here and I ask myself why the views of Tim Barnett a homosexual should bind the rest of New Zealand. Mr Barnett does an excellent job on the Justice and Electoral Committee of which I am a member and I have no difficulty at all in working with him on that committee. But why should the views of either of us bind the views of the rest of New Zealand? We live in a democracy but our form of democratic process really consists of placing ticks in boxes every 3 years. We have the right of free speech but we know sadly that most of the time no one is listening. The politicians peddle their own agenda or that of the bureaucrats and most people are left muttering to themselves or complaining to talk-back radio. The democratic process that we take part in actually leads to a tyranny of a handful and New Zealand First believes that this is happening in New Zealand. In fact that handful here in the Labour Party includes a non-elected few. 
What say do New Zealanders have on the following issues and who is listening to them: legalising prostitution; gender-bending legislation in which women can become fathers; the release of genetically modified organisms into the ecosystem; killers drug dealers and rapists on home detention; the Treaty of Waitangi industry; mass immigration; the sale of State assets; and speculation in large tracts of farmland lakeside coastline and the high country? The list is endless and the fact that New Zealanders have not generally been consulted on those matters makes a very clear point: democracy is too important to always be left to the politicians. 
When Peter Brown presented the voluntary euthanasia bill it was the bill previously presented by Michael Laws which had a referendum provision in it. The views expressed by Peter Brown on that bill and the views expressed by Brian Donnelly on the first reading of this bill when he said that there should be a referendum on this issue—and that is now a fait accompli in Supplementary Order Paper 311 which I hope members will support by way of a majority—fully express New Zealand First’s view on this issue. We ask Parliament to support a referendum on this issue. New Zealand First is committed to the introduction of binding citizens initiated referenda or direct democracy as it is known overseas. That was made very clear by the Rt Hon Winston Peters in a speech at the Loaves and Fishes some years ago. 
 Under that system voters take ultimate responsibility for the health and well-being of society. A healthy democratic society is not produced by casting two ticks for 3 years of political tyranny. Only the people can create a democracy that is of the people and for the people. Under direct democracy the Government is constitutionally bound to accept the will of the people—no ifs no buts no maybes. New Zealand First for example will honour the result of the 1999 citizens initiated referendum to reduce the number of MPs to 99. The loss of 21 MPs could only benefit the country and would actually result in considerable savings. 
Shane Ardern 
: Most of them from New Zealand First. 
DAIL JONES 
: That was a typical interjection from the National Party. New Zealand First is leading the country on this issue. Dr Brash of course is again trying to copy our policy. 
We have a situation in this House today where United Future elected on so-called Christian values allowed itself to enter into an alliance with the Labour Party knowing full well that the Labour Party had an election policy of supporting a civil union bill. It would have been common sense—I repeat common sense—surely for United Future immediately after the election to insist in any agreement with the Labour Party that a Labour Party Government should not introduce any civil union legislation. United Future did that on the issue of marijuana. Why not on civil unions? We have only to look at the way in which United Future’s leader Peter Dunne supports civil unions in the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill to understand why that must have happened. That bill confirms and enhances civil unions and the leader of United Future Peter Dunne supports civil unions in that bill. I regard the views of United Future on this issue as—well I will not say. In the old days the Christians were eaten by the lions. If United Future is a Christian party then one has to say that the Christians are now sitting alongside the lions and destroying those people who believe that marriage can be only a relationship of a man and a woman with a view to having children. 
The only party committed to hearing the voice of the people is New Zealand First in the referendum solution. We will be going to the people on this issue. We should not be wasting the time of Parliament on a civil union bill. We should not be rushing it through in this manner. New Zealand desperately needs checks and balances and a system that makes politicians accountable. We simply have to trust the people and rely on their goodwill and common sense. All that this social-engineering Labour Government is trying to do is to get this matter rushed through the House before Christmas. Is there some irony here—that Labour wants this bill rushed through before Christmas a time when we celebrate the relationship of Joseph and Mary and the child Jesus? 
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT) 
: 
 This should have been an easy decision for me to make. I believe in equality before the law. I believe that the law should uphold personal responsibility. I believe that the State has no place in the bedrooms of the nation. Yet I am not voting for the Civil Union Bill at this reading. I voted for it to go to the Justice and Electoral Committee when Parliament first debated it. So what has changed? Sadly very little. When one gets behind the slogans to work out what the words actually mean—what they actually do—there is virtually nothing there. This bill sets out a process for registering the fact that two people have exchanged agreements to join in civil union. So what does it mean to join in civil union? Nobody can tell. The whole thing is built around an important contract without the slightest indication as to what that contract is about. All the consequences of that contract are set out in the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill but we do not know what will be in that bill. No one in this House can assume what will remain of that bill. The select committee is doing a major reconstruction of it because it was so shambolically misconceived when it came into the House. Yet the two bills were designed to be read together. The Civil Union Bill does not have any practical effect without the other bill. 
How can any self-respecting legislator vote a blank cheque to Ms Clark and Ms Wilson on a family law matter? Why should they be trusted to come back to the House to do what even the proponents of this bill expect—that is provide that same-sex couples should be able to choose to have their relationships governed by the same rules that govern other childless voluntarily committed couples? I believe that should be the law. But we all ought to insist on knowing exactly what the companion bill will be even if it is only knowing that it does not discriminate further than it already proposes to do by providing for example that civilly united couples will still get the higher single benefit rate until 2007 for reasons I cannot fathom. 
We do know that the Civil Union Bill has no core. It was heavily marketed as State endorsement of or support for long-term stable committed relationships but there is nothing whatsoever in the bill about that. None of those words appear in it nor anything like them. The companion bill changes over 100 Acts to eliminate all differences for legal purposes between marriage civil union and shacking up for a couple of nights with no particular plan to end the relationship. The Relationships (Statutory References) Bill therefore makes civil union legally redundant except as a fashion statement. It even subjects unwilling de factos to a near-identical legal status to that of marriage whether or not they want it. So instead of underscoring the moral neutrality of the State the Civil Union Bill highlights that the State is using Parliament to bless a politically sponsored lifestyle choice. 
The submissions on the bills reinforced the view that very few people—and I think very few parliamentarians—had read them. I am sure that people were sincere but the tearful accounts of prejudice and insensitivity we heard had nothing to do with the law. For example much was made of hospital visiting rights. They were never a matter of law and they still are not. Neither of the bills even tries to deal with that issue. The people who submitted on that matter were victims of political theatre. 
 Since I came to Parliament I have tried to vote only for law that means what it says and says what it means. I have tried to oppose the misuse of law for slogan purposes. Still I could vote for a bill that I thought was hollow if that meaninglessness was harmless. But this bill is not harmless. There are unprincipled provisions in the Human Rights Act that mean that people who think same-sex marriage is deeply wrong could be forced to become involved in those ceremonies. A church could be forced to make its church hall available for example. The Relationships (Statutory References) Bill could easily prevent that by limiting the human rights anti-discrimination provisions but Government members have scoffed at the thought. 
I supported the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. I believed that criminal law should not be involved in such matters and I drafted one of the speeches of support for a member who voted for that bill. I believed the claims of the gay lobby—that all gays wanted was to be treated equally. Then they turned round and agitated for privilege. They gave the human rights commissars the powers to suppress peaceful opponents of homosexuality. Now many of them are advocating for anti-vilification laws—or the criminalisation of criticism as hate speech. Well I am not willing to give a blank cheque to the normalisers of same-sex relationships while they withhold freedom of association and freedom of speech in relation to sexual orientation. They want a parliamentary blessing. I want them to promise to restore that lost freedom. If this is the only chance we get to oblige them to reciprocate then we should not pass it up. 
Neither side of a contentious moral debate should be able to get its hands on the levers of the State in order to enforce its views against the other. The State should not be allowed to discriminate on such matters; it should be secular and it should ensure freedom for the tolerant coexistence of diverse religious ethical and cultural preferences. But the State should also protect—not prevent—private individuals and organisations from trying to influence each other. Tolerance means nothing if it does not include substantial freedom even to be offensive without the intervention of the police. So informal private discouragement of what people think is undesirable conduct whether it is just poor manners or whether it is what is thought to be a self-destructive lifestyle is an essential part of the peaceful self-regulation of a healthy community. 
Communities can also rely on favours to encourage desirable behaviour and the right word for those mechanisms is “discrimination”. Ordinary people can therefore exercise influence on the evolution of culture in their daily choices. They can discourage what they consider to be undesirable—encourage the way we do things around here—by means of whom they choose to associate with whom they employ and whom they do business with. That right to discriminate must be protected before we retrench behind yet another endorsement of law that can be used to attack those who do not agree with the prevailing orthodoxy. 
I urge this House to reject this bill today. It should be brought back when it is not an insult to members who want to know what they are voting on before they vote. But it should not be brought back until it cannot be turned into a legal club to beat people who dislike homosexuality and want the freedom to peacefully express that. I do believe in equality before the law. The law should uphold personal responsibility. It should enable same-sex couples to opt into the pre-formed contracts of the law. It should protect freedom of choice for all adult New Zealanders. The State should have no place in the bedrooms of the nation nor should it force anyone to pretend that he or she likes or does not care what happens in the bedrooms of the nation. 
NANDOR TANCZOS (Green) 
: 
 The fight over the Civil Union Bill is about more than who can hitch up with whom. It is about who we are as a nation. Are we a Christian nation or are we a pluralist State? Should law be based on morality or on rationality? Should the legislature respect equality and human rights or should it advantage some and disadvantage others? Submitters to the Justice and Electoral Committee were civil and respectful. However some of the opposition to the bill outside the parliamentary process has been venomous and nasty. Civil union supporters have been criticised for calling those opponents homophobic. I think that misses the point because this issue is not about fear of homos as much as it is about fear of losing control. On the face of it why would it upset anyone that two men or two women who love each other can make a public commitment and have that commitment recognised in law? Whom does that diminish? If being privileged above others is what makes a relationship valuable then it will suffer from the presence of anything closely resembling it. But if its value is derived from its spiritual authority the love it embodies and the virtue of its form then its value remains unaffected by the proximity of others. It is that genuine belief in the virtues of marriage that distinguishes the Christians who advocate for civil unions from the predominantly Christian opposition to them. 
The Civil Union Bill does not devalue marriage. It is not gay people who love each other who devalue marriage but such things as radio shows and reality television—which Moana Mackey talked about—that offer a bride as a prize. Do opponents of the bill not secretly believe that heterosexual marriage is intrinsically advantageous and that the presence of alternatives will make it less desirable? Do they think that good straight kids will start entering gay unions because the law states that they can? Do they think that being gay is somehow more interesting? Or is it that the opponents see their dominance of our social and political forms slipping away from them? The increasing plurality of our society is scary for those who have always paddled in the mainstream. They have not yet understood that there no longer is a mainstream. We have become a braided river. I do not mean that unkindly. I am a man who has lived outside the mainstream for most of my life. A number of United Future MPs think that I should be disqualified from being an MP because of that and they typify the view that I am talking about. 
 I have an unshakeable faith that is different from that of the United Future MPs which I am forbidden by law to fully practise. It would be wrong for me to demand that everyone else be bound by Rastafarian law but I am justified in demanding my own right to be a Rasta and that is the proper relationship between faith and the State. The State should be a protector not a persecutor of religion but it is not the State’s role to advantage one faith over another or religion over any other philosophy. The job of legislators is not to privilege any particular cultural practice but to protect human rights and cultural and ecological integrity. That does not include entrenching discrimination in the law. The law should support committed long-term relationships because they promote health strong communities and greater happiness. There is no rational basis for excluding people from that because they are gay. Even if it is true as some assert that gay and de facto relationships are less stable than other relationships why would we not want to provide an opportunity for those people to formally and publicly commit to each other and have that commitment taken seriously by the law? 
As it stands the law states that same-sex people can have casual sex but that they may not have a long-term relationship recognised. I simply do not understand why some people see a moral imperative in maintaining that status quo. But then I have never really understood why oppressing other people is seen as a Christian value by some people. The Bible does talk about homosexuality. It is a little unclear in places whether the problem is with regard to homosexuality per se or promiscuity but it is condemned in some places a few times. I have not counted how many times exactly but I think it is about as many times as usury is condemned—the practice of lending money at interest. Usury is a genuinely iniquitous practice and the avoidance of usury is one of the unique features of the Muslim banking system. I ask members to consider the percentage of the average person’s income spent on servicing the interest on debt. There is the interest on one’s mortgage—or on one’s landlord’s mortgage if one pays rent—the interest on bank loans to the businesses where people shop and the interest on credit and on student loans but I have yet to see a member of Parliament fast to end the practice of usury. As far as I can see homosexuality is of insignificant concern to the biblical prophets and to the Christ when compared with the overwhelming condemnation of economic injustice and oppression of the poor. Yet although it would be a little unfair to say that among Christians opposition to the Civil Union Bill is inversely proportional to a concern for social justice there does seem to be a rough fit. 
Christianity was debased when it became the State religion of Rome and it continues to debase itself when it tries to align its interests with those of the State. This is a pluralist society with a democratic and secular Parliament and it is vital that we uphold that. In that context it was a dangerous and an unwise decision by the Catholic bishops to attempt to direct Catholics on how to vote as a consequence of this bill. If the Catholic Church wants to return to its past of wielding direct political power it will find modern society considerably less malleable. If the Catholic Church wants to intervene in the political process it may tempt politicians to interfere in the affairs of the Church. 
I would like to finish by thanking the advisers to the select committee for their very good work and by thanking Tim Barnett for his excellent chairing. Although his view on the bill has always been clear he has made sure that all sides had a genuinely fair go and that all submitters were treated with respect. I apologise to Mr Franks for contrasting that with the chairing of the committee by the deputy chair but I make that point only because of Mr Franks’ public and unjustified criticism of Mr Barnett and the select committee. Let us ensure that Aotearoa is a land that respects and values all its people. Let us make sure we pass this bill. 
MURRAY SMITH (United Future) 
: 
 As a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee I want to begin by thanking the thousands and thousands of New Zealanders who took the time and made the effort to make submissions on this bill. For many it was the first time they had ever made submissions to a select committee. As we know 91 percent of them opposed this bill. One of those who opposed this bill was a highly respected priest of the New Zealand Catholic Church an older man clearly with wisdom and experience and definitely not extreme. He said that the decision on this bill was the most important decision we have made in his lifetime and more important than New Zealand’s decision as to whether to go to war against Hitler. He was right. In this bill we are tampering with a fundamental institution of our society indeed a fundamental institution of all societies worldwide—East or West; rich or poor; Christian Muslim or other religion; capitalist or socialist—and an institution that is as old as time itself and predates the State. I am talking about the institution of family and in particular the institution of marriage. 
Given that this bill deserves extreme caution. Having said that I have to say there are genuine issues relating to gay and lesbian couples that Parliament needs to address. These revolve especially around the easy recognition of their relationships by third parties Government agencies in particular. Many of the submitters who opposed the bill recognised that there was a need for something such as a next-of-kin register in order to cater for those genuine concerns. 
Other countries have indeed addressed these issues and those countries are listed in the select committee’s report. However what is significant about those countries but is not stated by the supporters of this bill is that except for Belgium the Netherlands and some Canadian provinces all have adopted a registration scheme that is not ceremonial and is clearly not a replica of marriage. Further the purpose of those schemes has largely been to protect property rights something that has occurred in New Zealand since the 2001 amendments to the Property (Relationships) Act. In fact a large number of those countries—Australia Denmark Finland Germany Iceland Lichtenstein Norway Spain Sweden Switzerland the UK France and Hungary—do not allow same-sex marriage and only France and Hungary have registration schemes that apply to both same-sex and opposite-sex couples. 
 New Zealanders accept that some sort of partnership registration scheme may be appropriate—something akin to filing a declaration of partnership and something that does not have ceremonial aspects and other similarities to marriage. 
Today I received a letter written—unprecedentedly—by the joint efforts of the president of the New Zealand Catholic Bishops Conference Vision Network of New Zealand and the Muslim Association of Canterbury which showed clearly their support for human and civil rights to be upheld and for some support for legislation that gave rights but that did not interfere with the institution of marriage. 
In the committee’s report there is a list of five differences between civil union and marriage: that a civil union applies to both men and women and same-sex partners where marriage concerns men and women solely; that civil unions will not use the term “husband and wife”; that there will be only one process for celebrants not three; that the age of consent for 16 and 17-year-olds by their guardians have variations to the age of consent for marriage; and that there is a provision for the solemnisation of overseas relationships. 
Those cosmetic differences pale into insignificance compared with the overwhelming number of similarities that there are in this bill between civil unions and marriage. These provisions include: that both require the same form of licence; that both require a celebrant or registrar; that they provide for similar notices of objection; that the form of words used must state the identity and intention of the parties; that they have similar prohibited degrees of consanguinity and relationship; that they have the same ability to apply to the courts to sanction close relationships for civil unions as marriages; that there are the same provisions for an injunction against simultaneous relationships—that is bigamy; that the age restrictions are the same—that is they are restricted to under the age of 18; that they both have the ability for the court to waive that age restriction; and that they both have the ability for parents and guardians to consent to 16 and 17-year-olds entering into such relationships. 
The offence provisions and penalties are the same. The ability to declare the relationship void is the same in each case and on a similar basis. There are similar provisions for there being no defect where formalities or procedures have been wrong. The Family Court is given jurisdiction over both. The Registrar-General of Births Deaths and Marriages is given jurisdiction in respect of both relationships to maintain a register of civil unions as well as the current register of marriages and they have identical registration processes. 
Finally the process for dissolution of the relationships is the same and the criteria for dissolution are the same. Given that lengthy list I ask how anyone can possibly say that civil unions are not same-sex marriages. 
There were two interesting points made by submitters who supported the bill that I took some note of—two interesting comments that came through. One was from those involved in the drafting of this bill. They told us that the decision to go for civil union rather than same-sex marriage was because it was felt that same-sex marriage was not at this point politically sustainable and therefore the “lower” option of a civil union should be pursued. I cover in my minority report my belief that this legislation is only a stage in the process of having same-sex marriage. 
The second very interesting point made by a number of submitters who supported the bill was that they did not really want a legal form of recognition. In fact that is reflected in overseas statistics where the take-up of relationship recognition and relationship registration has been small compared with the number of people living in those sorts of relationships. What they really want is for Parliament to sanction same-sex relationships so that the public will change their attitude towards same-sex couples. What they want is approval from the community at large. They want Parliament to force that change by forcing the legislation. 
However legislation alone will not bring about that change and other countries that have legislated have found that other steps are then necessary in order to try to do that. Two of those are particularly looming before us which we can see from overseas examples. The first is the education process. Once we have legislation that equates same-sex and opposite-sex relationships school curricula will have to reflect that. Children as young as primary-aged children will be taught that same-sex relationships are just as valid as opposite-sex relationships and that having a mum and a dad is optional. Two dads and two mums are exactly the same and traditional family life as we have known it is no longer of relevance. 
Of more importance though is the repression of talk against homosexuality which is a repression of freedom of speech. In Canada on 28 April 2004 the Parliament passed a bill that effectively criminalised speech or writings that criticised homosexuality. Anything deemed to be homophobic can be punished by 6 months in prison or by other severe penalties. A man who owned a printing press in Canada was fined $3400 for refusing to print stationery for a homosexual activist organisation. And so the list goes on. A Saskatchewan newspaper and a private citizen were fined in 2001 for publishing an advertisement listing Bible verses about homosexuality. In Sweden a sweeping hates-crime law was passed that forbade any criticism of homosexuality and last year a pastor was arrested at a church in Sweden and charged with hate speech against homosexuals in a sermon about homosexuality. The prosecutor said that collecting Bible quotes on that topic as the pastor did made that hate speech. 
That is the door we are opening and there are signals already in New Zealand society that we are heading in the same direction: the current push for hate-speech legislation the astonishingly intolerant and bigoted attack directed at a Christian group lobbying for the bill by a recent appointee to the Human Rights Review Tribunal the Advertising Standards Complaints Board’s decision last October against the Tui’s advertisement: “There’s nothing wrong with Miriam—yeah right.” This is the door we are opening with this legislation by providing a civil union that is a marriage in all but name. We need to rethink this. Let us meet the need for next of kin and other rights without attacking traditional marriage. This bill goes too far. 
GEORGINA BEYER (Labour—Wairarapa) 
: 
 It is a privilege to rise to speak to the second reading of the Civil Union Bill. I will begin by congratulating Tim Barnett and the select committee and indeed all the submitters. I also acknowledge respectfully those arguments from both sides of the fence on this matter. It is never easy in Parliament when we have to deal with these serious and thought provoking conscience provoking issues. 
I support this bill unequivocally. I support this bill because I believe that many thousands of New Zealanders not just those in same-sex relationships but over 300000 other New Zealanders will benefit from the choice of having a civil union. Unfortunately in this day and age marriage itself is exclusive to a man and a woman and that is the way it will remain under this legislation—untouched. The only perception of danger to the institution of marriage in my opinion arises in the minds and morals of those who do not have the same respect for those of us who may live differently in de facto relationships and also those of us who happen to be in same-sex relationships. 
I believe that I live in a society where law-abiding taxpaying contributing citizens of this country can and should demand equality in the eyes of the law in all aspects of that society. This is no more or less than we are asking for with the Civil Union Bill—for the sake of enhancing the lives of New Zealanders not for destroying the institution of marriage which we stand here in this House today to acknowledge and respect for what it is. 
But I cannot live in a country that has treated me personally and many others like me with great civil liberties but that says: “No you remain a second-class citizen in this country if you wish to solemnise your relationship. You cannot marry.” With the Civil Union Bill and its partnership bill the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill we can remedy this situation for many thousands of New Zealanders. 
I think the moral right fundamentalists have betrayed their argument in purporting to uphold family values and the rights of New Zealanders to live as men and women as apparently God created. Life is not like that in modern New Zealand. We pride ourselves on being an inclusive society; a society that happily shows to the world that we are diverse and that we take the benefit of that diversity and accept the wonderful accolades we receive for it. I am very fortunate to be one of those rarities in the world in a parliamentary sense who enjoys that respect from people. 
We are asking of New Zealanders and the members of this Parliament today to make the right decision as they believe it to be. I believe that the right decision is to support this bill through its second reading so that it may proceed through its Committee stage and hopefully a third reading. 
I will also remind parties in this House that the junior branches of some of these parties including the Labour Party the National Party the ACT party and the Progressive Party support this. They went public yesterday jointly—almost without precedent. They are showing far more maturity about dealing with this matter than some of us in here are doing between the parties. I urge the National Party and I urge the ACT party—I do not need to urge the Progressives and the Labour Party—to listen to their young people. They are the future and they have spoken strongly and loudly on this matter. They believe the Civil Union Bill should pass through. They want to get on with their lives just as the New Zealanders whom we are discussing in this matter today want to get on with theirs. 
I cannot accept the devaluing of the families of same-sex couples that has been done throughout the debate nationally and within this House during the course of discussion of the Civil Union Bill. We hold the same values as any other family in this country that has heterosexual parents. I will not accept that the children of same-sex couples go to school today and get questioned about the value of the family from which they come. It is as vital and as valuable as any heterosexual family in this country. We as a Parliament must support those families those children—the products of those strong relationships—and give them confidence that they do live in a country that is fair reasonable and that treats people with respect and equality in the eyes of the law. 
I believe it is very little to ask with regard to the Civil Union Bill in its second reading for people to look to the compassionate side of themselves to think from a humanitarian base to join other countries in the world and to respect the opinions of some of our young who say that we should support the Civil Union Bill. With that I implore members of the House who may still be deciding which way they wish to vote to please vote in favour for the sake of a positive future for all New Zealanders not just some of us. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 I oppose this bill because it undermines the most important institution in our lives and that is our families. This bill is part of a radical experiment in social engineering by the Labour Government that involves the legalisation of prostitution enabling women to be fathers saying that de facto relationships are equal to the long-term commitment of marriage and eroding the rights and responsibilities of parents. I say respectfully that this is the most anti-family Government in the history of our country. 
Our marriage laws are based on a very simple quid pro quo. Marriage is given special status in law because the union of a man and woman who are committed to each other for the long haul is socially the best way for us to raise children. Children are the most important thing to this country’s future. 
 I have heard people say that this is not a gay marriage bill. There is a saying: “If it looks like a duck if it quacks like a duck and if it smells like a duck it probably is a duck.” This bill makes a thousand amendments to over a hundred laws and in every single one of them marriage and civil union are to be identical. The only difference is the name. This is a gay marriage bill. 
There are those who say that this bill does not erode marriage—that it is all just about everybody having the same set of rights. I say it is like giving everybody at school School Certificate. Does that erode it for those who achieve? In education this Government has established the culture of “Let’s just make everybody the same.” That same erosion of standards is being applied in respect of relationships. Relationships are not all the same. The lifelong commitment of marriage is different from de facto relationships. Marriage has the ambition the goal of being a special lifelong commitment between a man and a woman who will have children together and raise the next generation of our society. 
For all the liberal rhetoric I hear from the Government benches about marriage being a dated institution I remind the House that 79.4 percent of people in a relationship—nearly four out of five—choose marriage and that the number of people who are marrying in our society has been on the increase in recent years. 
Proponents of this bill argue that men and women are the same. They are not. I say as a father—a privileged father of a lovely daughter and son—that right from the early years it is plain that we are wired differently. Men and women are not the same have never been the same and will never ever be the same. Men and women are equal but different and no amount of politically correct law will override that natural law. A gay couple cannot have children; they can care for the children of others. This at its most basic is the reason why the relationship between a man and a woman is different from the relationship between two men or two women. 
My view on this matter is strongly underpinned by the view that children do best when raised in the home of a mum and dad who are committed to being with each other for the long haul. People cite cases quite properly where a solo parent a gay couple or a de facto couple do a good job of raising their children—and they do. But this House has to judge what is best for society as a whole. There are all sorts of areas of social science where there is equivocality. But in respect of children’s best welfare the evidence is overwhelming that on average their having a stable mum and dad is the best way to minimise all the social problems we see in our society today. 
I say to this House that the family is the future of our country and we should back it. We should respect gay couples but they should not have legal recognition by this Parliament. 
BRIAN CONNELL (National—Rakaia) 
: 
 I have railed against this legislation because it is fundamentally dishonest. It is predicated on a litany of “mistruths”. Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary this bill is about homosexual marriage. I could respect the proponents of this legislation if they at least accepted that fundamental fact and came clean. But how they rail against the conservative element in our society when we dare to say that that is the true agenda! The dishonesty of this legislation is that it is only because of the conservative vote that the Government has not gone the whole hog and asked for gay marriage. 
Let us look at the evidence. Tim Barnett when he was interviewed by the gay magazine  
Express 
 said that we will not have a queer-friendly Government forever so we need to capitalise on it before it is too late and that we have unfinished business. Asked what that unfinished business was he said gay marriage. In the same article the Prime Minister is reported as saying when asked about gay marriage that she had encouraged Tim Barnett to take up the cudgels. 
The argument that homosexuals are denied access to their partners who are in hospital etc. is just another of the “mistruths” that have been fanned by the homosexual community. I asked hospital officials whether that was the case and they said it absolutely was not. 
Mr Barnett tried to ply his trade in the UK political system and he was soundly rejected. I do not want New Zealand to be his guinea pig. For all the talk about gay relationships and their sustainability the fact is they are notoriously volatile—and they want us to accept those relationships as mainstream! Despite all the talk I have no antipathy towards homosexuals of either sex. [ 
Interruption 
] Members might laugh but what homosexuals are looking for is not understanding. This is the hard sell of the homosexual community. This is a recruitment drive. They are not looking for understanding at all. 
We should not even be debating this bill because we do not have a mandate. Despite what has been said the people who went to the select committee in their thousands said they did not want this measure. The people who have responded to television surveys and talkback radio in their thousands have said: “We don’t want this.” That this bill has been rushed through rammed through this Parliament is itself an enormous travesty. It is nothing more than a handful of influential people being engaged in an unabated attempt to re-engineer society in their own likeness. I repeat that we have no mandate to pass this legislation. On that basis alone we should reject it. 
I also have to ask where the mainstream churches have been on this issue. They have been spectacularly quiet. Where is the leadership that people like John Kennedy the editor of the  
Tablet 
 in the 1970s and 1980s showed? He would have galvanised the conservative vote in this country. He would have turned this into an election issue and what is more he would have won. The fact that he could have done that and that all the PC-led churches of modern society of today cannot do that is an absolute indictment on them. 
DAVE HEREORA (Labour) 
: 
 As a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee I take the opportunity to declare that I am in support of this bill. Over the past 24 hours there has been a huge campaign in relation to lobbying members of Parliament as to which way we will vote. In the matter of a conscience vote I often call my niece as at the end of the day she has some influence over which way I vote. She explained: “Uncle if you are hesitant vote for the second reading. Come back at the weekend and we’ll have another talk before we get to the third reading.” 
I want to make it very clear that I not only support the second reading but also intend to support the passage of the legislation all the way through the House. One of the reasons I support it is simply that I believe this bill is not about gay marriage. Marriage remains solely available to a man and a woman. This bill is in no way undermining marriage or altering the Marriage Act. It simply enables couples who choose not to marry or for that matter who cannot marry to have their relationship legally recognised as a civil union. 
The other issue is the claim about gay rights. The law currently differentiates between people depending on their marital status with a number of legal rights and responsibilities accessible only to married couples. Those potentially discriminatory laws expose the Government to risks of complaint and to litigation. A number of submitters were also concerned about the terms “husband” and “wife” being removed from the law. I know from the bill that those terms will not be removed; they will be retained. 
I would like to quote this passage from the commentary: “The existence of good de facto parents and bad married parents shows that the structure is not the key to a happy or functional family. The key is the parenting skills of the individuals involved and their commitment to each other and their children.” That in my mind is paramount. The key is the manner in which we treat our children and the brand or the type of relationship that we are in does not determine that. The research is clear on the fact that generally speaking children do better in two-parent families than in a single-parent family. That is common sense when we consider that the financial emotional and parental pressures are exacerbated when there is not another parent with whom to share the load. But what opponents of gay and de facto parents then do is try to attribute the outcomes for children from single-parent families to every family outside of marriage. That is not the case. Quality peer-reviewed methodically sound research shows that there are no significant differences between outcomes for children raised in same-sex families and for those raised in marriage. The main difference is the stigma that the children from those relationships face as a result of prejudice against their families. Marriage on its own does not make good parents. The existence of good de facto and gay parents and bad married parents indicates that the family structure is not the key to happy functioning families. 
This House should not tolerate a position in law that says that gay couples can have a casual relationship but not a committed one. For those who say that gay couples do not need this measure and that we can just pass some other laws to protect their interests I ask them whether they would be happy for us to remove the State recognition of their relationship as well. 
The Relationship (Statutory References) Bill covers areas around burial cremation etc. but not next of kin for hospital visitation or decision-making rights. Those are cases of gay partners and disapproving families conflicting over hospital care and I cannot imagine anything more difficult. The Relationships (Statutory References) Bill cannot help this. However if the couple is in a civil union there is no argument. In that respect the Civil Union Bill is the “Next of Kin Bill”. 
Given that I raised the question of the future of our children I want to move on to the issue of the journey that we are on as a nation and to look at the vision of how we might see the future of our society evolve. It is my feeling that we are on the brink of moving from grievance mode to inclusion and development mode but do we possess the courage commitment and responsibility to live in good grace and harmony with each other? To oppose this bill is to oppose that too. 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police) 
: 
 I usually sit down and keep quiet during conscience votes. Having strong opinions has forced me today to get up and say that the reason I joined the Labour Party was it is against discrimination. It is against making divides in our community. I remember back in 1981 the Springbok tour when people were against people—New Zealander against New Zealander—and I felt that was wrong. I also think that having different categories of people in New Zealand is wrong. I was privileged to be New Zealand’s first Minister for Ethnic Affairs and I saw how people were discriminated against when trying to get jobs. They are welcomed to our country but by golly if their accent or skin colour is different it is hard. I think those barriers need to be taken down. I believe that the Labour Party is a party in which we can have debate and argue these things. 
That does not mean that I think any less of marriage. I have been married for 37 years which probably says that I have a very tolerant wife. But I also believe that people can make their own arrangements. People can live in de facto relationships. Not many years ago if one was in a de facto relationship could one get a bank loan for a mortgage? Not many years ago the bank manager would have said no. Things are changing. This legislation is an important part of that change. This is about a country growing up and recognising that there are differences. The fact that there are differences is something we should rejoice in. It makes people feel better. 
I also respect those people who have a different view. I respect the four young people who came to my electorate office last week and said that I should not vote for the bill. I respect the pastors who told me the same thing. Their views are important but so are the views of others in this country who want to make a commitment to one another. When we consider commitment let us look at people in marriages who punch and beat their wives and beat up their kids; if marriage is the answer it must have been a hell of a silly question. Marriage works for most people. I think most people should allow other people to make decisions for themselves. I think that we as a country must allow other people to have the same freedom and commitment that I have and enjoy. Marriage is something that I hope my son gets involved in shortly. However that will be his choice. I also feel that for people to want to make a commitment to each other in whatever form that commitment must be really strong. They want to commit to one another—to commit as couples—and to have that commitment recognised by a country that is maturing slowly. 
I hope that this bill goes through this stage today and is passed next week. It will make a lot of difference to some people but it will not affect those whose marriages are strong and full of commitment and love. I just think that other people should be able to enjoy that. 
Dr WAYNE MAPP (National—North Shore) 
: 
 Who should decide? I believe that that is the fundamental question raised by this conscience issue. Should it be the 120 members of Parliament or should it be the people of New Zealand? I believe that when put like that the answer is clear: it should be the people of New Zealand. 
Our democracy is evolving. In the early 1990s there was the initiative for citizens initiated referenda. I was one of those who advocated that reform when I was the chair of the policy committee of the National Party in Auckland. It is now time to move this issue forward. The people of New Zealand ought to have the right to decide whether there should be civil unions whether brothels should be legalised whether the drinking age should be 18 or 20 and whether they want casinos in their communities. Those are things about which people can use their common-sense and life experience to make the decisions. They are questions that are readily capable of being put forward as referenda. 
As a matter of practice before I cast my vote I always conduct a scientific poll based on the electoral roll of the views of the North Shore electorate. On this issue the results were clear: 56 percent were opposed to creating the institution of civil union 34 percent were in support and the balance had yet to make up their minds. Many MPs will argue that we are here to exercise our judgment not merely to act as delegates. On most issues that is correct. But there are particular issues—and conscience issues more than any others—that generate huge interest in the community. All of us in the House have received literally thousands of letters and emails on this issue and that is testament to the depth of concern that the public has on this matter. The public is quite capable of making an informed decision and it is time that this Parliament gave the public that right. Ultimately only we as lawmakers can extend our democracy in that way. 
I envisage that these questions would be decided by referenda at the time of each general election to ensure maximum participation. We might expect one or two at each election. That is now commonplace in many states in the United States and it is a developing trend in Western democracies. It is time that we caught up. Clearly procedures would have to be worked out but they are ultimately matters of detail. 
Ultimately the question is simple: are we prepared to advance our democracy and let the people decide these issues directly? It seems to me that the answer is obvious. If we believe in the democratic principle we will allow the people to make their decisions on these issues at the time of each election. That is how we develop our democracy not by our assuming some superior approach as members of Parliament when in fact it is time to trust the common-sense judgment of our fellow citizens New Zealanders. 
EDWIN PERRY (NZ First) 
: 
 Firstly I just want to address Georgina Beyer my colleague who shares the Wairarapa electorate. I say to her that I am the youth member for New Zealand First—she was trying to find out who it was. 
This is a serious issue and I remind all those listeners listening to this debate today on the Civil Union Bill of the New Zealand First minority report on the bill. It reads: “New Zealand First believes that issues such as civil unions and other similar social and moral issues should be dealt with through a referendum. This is New Zealand First policy.”—adopted in November 2003—“The Civil Union Bill is controversial legislation which has evoked wide ranging views and emotions and clearly cannot be trusted to the ‘consciences’ of Members of Parliament.”—as mentioned by Mr Mapp. 
The minority report continues: “New Zealand First has received a large amount of communication on this issue with almost 90 percent opposing it. We believe that this would be the result were a referendum to be held and therefore reject the notion that Parliament should supersede the will of the people without first testing it. 
“The most common concern of those opposing the bill is that it undermines the institution of marriage and we believe that it is not for Parliament to tamper with its meaning or place in society. 
“New Zealand First believes this bill is part of a disturbing trend by this current Government to interfere in social and moral issues. Therefore the majority of New Zealand First strongly oppose the Civil Union Bill”—and I am one of them—“and all support the proposition that such issues must be tested by way of referendum.” 
I want to inform the people of New Zealand of the real facts and the truth about the United Future party. It could have stopped this bill and the Prostitution Reform Bill. This situation is no different from what United Future did with the cannabis bill and no different from when the Rt Hon Winston Peters did not agree to the sale of Wellington Airport which caused the coalition to collapse. 
I want to refer to my press release dated 8 September entitled  
NZ First Calls for Referendum on Civil Union Bill 
 which reads: “New Zealand First MP Edwin Perry has called for a public referendum to be held on the Civil Union and the Relationship (Statutory References) bills. 
“The Justice and Electoral committee has been hearing submissions on both bills which would allow same-sex and de-facto couples to legally register their relationships and have rights equal to those of married couples. 
“ ‘Many of the submissions received by the committee argue that the issue of civil union is too important to be decided on by 120 MPs’ said Mr Perry. 
“ ‘It is an issue that a lot of people feel strongly about. Many are divided over what the legislation could mean for the nation as a whole. 
“ ‘As part of New Zealand First policy we believe that issues major affecting New Zealanders as a whole should go to a referendum. 
“ ‘The Civil Union Bill should not be a Government decision but rather one that is left to the people to decide’ concluded Mr Perry.” 
 I want to pay my respects to Tim Barnett for the way he chaired the Justice and Electoral Committee even though I was not there a lot of the time because I was seconded on that committee by my colleague Mr Dail Jones. I want to thank Tim Barnett for the way he equally chaired the responses from all the committee members. 
I also want to say “Hello!” to Lianne Dalziel and to thank her for her experience and cooperative attitude towards myself and certain aspects of the submissions. I think she deserves a place back on the front bench. 
I want to refer to all the letters that I received from people in the Wairarapa. Here is one of them from Mr Selwyn Hill and Maureen Hill: “We write to you to express our total disagreement with the proposed Civil Union Bill before Parliament currently. This bill is against the marriage bond which is a Christian commitment clearly set by Our Lord Jesus when he was on earth as a God-given union. This bill is against the family and against the bonds that hold society and our nation together.” 
TIM BARNETT (Labour—Christchurch Central) 
: 
 Submitters against the Civil Union Bill have described me as a practising homosexual—30 years and still practising some might scoff—as a leading pro-homosexual lobbyist and as someone with a very personal sexual lifestyle commitment. It was not in any of those colourful roles that I chaired the Justice and Electoral Committee. I am devoted to making the voice of the wider community heard in this place and have for 5 years chaired what I think is a very functional select committee. I am proud to be speaking in this debate as its chair. 
When the Civil Union Bill was referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee my role as chair was questioned. Of course my sexuality was the issue. For two reasons I was happy to carry on as chair. The role of leading a select committee is primarily about process. It was a personal challenge not to generate complaints from submitters that they had been unfairly treated by me as chair and we received none. Secondly most people who stand to benefit from this bill are heterosexual so if I declared an interest so should have all the other committee members and the committee would have collapsed. That made no sense. 
Of course as today sexuality dominated the debate. As an aside we realised as the select committee progressed that marriage has a history of being used as an expression of the dominant prejudices of the society and the time—bans on interfaith marriage bans on people with some sort of disability being able to marry and bans on interracial marriage in the USA only two generations ago. Civil unions are not marriages but the distaste expressed by biblical literalists towards the idea of two people of the same gender being able to have legal recognition of their relationship had all the flavour of the use of relationship law as a weapon to advance their latest prejudice. 
The select committee received very few specific proposals to amend the bill and we responded to each. We inserted a commencement date for certainty. We abandoned prescribed words for the solemnisation of the relationship to allow freedom of choice. We inserted recognition of overseas same-sex marriages and civil union type of arrangements as civil unions in New Zealand. We ensured that the language of marriage remained as such and that with civil unions comes new legal language applying only to people in civil unions. 
The select committee process was complex to manage and I thank Angela Van Dam Will Murray and Helena Strange for their outstanding work in keeping the floods at bay and making sure that submitters were treated well. I also thank my fellow committee members for putting up with a vigorous schedule and thank those of them deeply opposed to this bill—notably Murray Smith of United Future—for remaining quite calm and constructive. 
I shall devote the remainder of my speech to working through a series of comments made about the work of the committee on the bill and on the wider issues raised in the debate. Some say that the select committee rushed the process. Groups and individuals had 7 weeks to produce submissions after an open debate on civil unions lasting for the past year. It is ironic that the debate on the issue actually started back in 1999 when the then National Government issued a discussion paper on same-sex couples and the law. So this bill was a shock to no one. The committee gave every one of the 400 or so submitters who wanted to be heard the chance to be heard and 352 responded and ended up appearing. The 75 percent of those submitters who were opposed to the bill were highly repetitive. We then spent 7 weeks processing the information and the views collected. All of that totalled 82 hours of committee sittings. That is not the description of a rush. 
Some say that the committee ignored the majority of submissions. In fact a section in the committee’s report signed by seven of its 11 members makes clear that we heard what they said very clearly indeed and responded in detail. The numerical breakdown of submissions received by a select committee is not a referendum. The role of the committee is to separate emotion from fact. Some submissions were of standard wording with individual copies signed by many different people. Some were from groups. One had a petition attached signed by 2965 people in favour of the bill. In the last 36 hours my parliamentary office has received 1000 emails—800 in favour of the bill and 200 against. We can all play the numbers game. Members of Parliament are not statisticians. We are politicians seeking ideas and views for analysis. 
The school of gender and women’s studies at Victoria University analysed all the submissions. Of the 3383 substantial submissions received 74 percent—not 95 percent—were against the bill and 26 percent in support. Of those submissions from agencies rather than individuals 45 percent were in favour and 55 percent against. Was it divine intervention that caused the submission from the Destiny Church to fail to arrive? We shall never know. Of the submissions against the bill fewer than 1 percent were from people with direct experience in the matters dealt with by the bill. Of the submissions in support of the bill 33 percent were from people with direct experience of those matters. What I described above is a classic example of a group that did not represent either mainstream New Zealand or even mainstream Christian thought that was well organised and that flooded a select committee with submissions. That Victoria University study found by analysing the 2001 census that a maximum of 9 percent of New Zealanders held fundamentalist Christian views. So the moral majority may in fact be neither. 
 Many of the oral submitters against the bill stated that they had opposed at the time and still regretted homosexual law reform 18 years ago. I utterly respect their right to hold their views but they do not—and I am sure Parliament agrees—hold a veto on such matters. None of the 300 or so opponents of the bill heard by the committee presented any evidence on how homosexual law reform and the expansion of human rights grounds to include sexual orientation had personally affected them or had provided anything but good to society. There were no unintended consequences of those laws so what is different now? 
Some call for a referendum on this matter. This bill flows from the decision of this House in 1993 to outlaw discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. That was a moment of constitutional importance. That moment has passed. It is now the job of this House to implement the consequences. 
Some say that same-sex couples could obtain the protections of civil union through personal legal contracts. To quote a Wellington gay submitter: “My partner and I have had to spend considerable sums on legal fees for the drafting of a relationship property agreement wills and enduring powers of attorney to property personal care and welfare yet still our relationship lacks any legal protection even approaching that automatically conferred by marriage. That is not equality and it is not acceptable.” 
Some say that the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill should have been dealt with first. That is nonsense. It is the Civil Union Bill that confers what many refer to as next-of-kin status. It gives certainty which can then be used to access the rights in the relationships bill and obviously both pieces of legislation should come into force on the same day. 
In conclusion homosexuality certainly inspires fantasy. Submitters spoke of a man in the United States wanting to marry his horse—male I assume. They described this bill as being the spark for the mass explosion of New Zealand’s volcanoes. They claimed that homosexual Arab terrorists were roaming Christchurch promoting the bill. They claimed that most gay men die by their early 40s giving me at 46 years of age kaumatua status in this House. Then I read chilling submission CU 748 in which a 12-year-old describes homosexuals as worthy of death. Those in this House who reject this bill need to realise what that rejection is validating be it blackshirts marching outside or twisted prejudice in the minds of our young. I commend this bill to the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I advise members who are in the Chamber or who may be listening that there are two questions to be put and although the bells will ring for an extended period of time on the first they will ring for only 1 minute on the second. 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments recommended by the Justice and Electoral Committee by majority be agreed to.  
Ayes 66 
Anderton(P) 
Eckhoff 
Laban(P) 
Shirley 
Barker 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Locke 
Simich 
Barnett 
Fairbrother(P) 
Mackey J 
Sutton 
Benson-Pope 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Mackey M 
Swain(P) 
Beyer 
Gallagher 
Maharey 
Tanczos 
Bradford(P) 
Goff(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Tizard 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Turei(P) 
Carter C (P) 
Hartley 
Mark 
Ward(P) 
Chadwick 
Hawkins 
Okeroa 
Wilson 
Choudhary(P) 
Hereora 
Parker(P) 
Wong(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hide 
Peck 
Yates 
Cullen 
Hobbs(P) 
Pillay 
Cunliffe(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Prebble(P) 
Dalziel 
Horomia(P) 
Rich(P) 
Donald(P) 
Hughes 
Ririnui 
Donnelly(P) 
Hunt(P) 
Robson 
Duncan 
Kedgley 
Roy 
Teller: 
Dyson 
King 
Samuels(P) 
Pettis 
Noes 54 
Adams 
Dunne(P) 
Ogilvy 
te Heuheu 
Alexander 
Duynhoven(P) 
Paraone 
Tisch 
Ardern(P) 
English(P) 
Perry 
Turia(P) 
Baldock(P) 
Field 
Peters J (P) 
Turner(P) 
Brash(P) 
Franks 
Peters W (P) 
Wang 
Brown 
Goudie(P) 
Power(P) 
Williamson 
Brownlee (P) 
Gudgeon 
Robertson 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter D (P) 
Heatley 
Ryall(P) 
Worth(P) 
Carter J 
Hutchison(P) 
Scott(P) 
Catchpole 
Jones 
Smith L 
Coddington 
Key(P) 
Smith M 
Collins 
McCully(P) 
Smith N (P) 
Connell (P) 
McNair 
Sowry(P) 
Copeland 
Newman 
Stewart 
Teller: 
Cosgrove 
O’Connor 
Tamihere 
Mapp 
Motion agreed to. 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the Civil Union Bill be now read a second time. 
Ayes 65 
Anderton(P) 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Locke 
Simich 
Barker 
Fairbrother(P) 
Mackey J 
Sutton 
Barnett 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Mackey M 
Swain(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Gallagher 
Maharey 
Tanczos 
Beyer 
Goff(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Tizard 
Bradford(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Turei(P) 
Burton(P) 
Hartley 
Mark 
Ward(P) 
Carter C (P) 
Hawkins 
Okeroa 
Wilson 
Chadwick 
Hereora 
Parker(P) 
Wong(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hide 
Peck 
Yates 
Clark(P) 
Hobbs(P) 
Pillay 
Cullen 
Hodgson(P) 
Prebble(P) 
Cunliffe(P) 
Horomia(P) 
Rich(P) 
Dalziel 
Hughes 
Ririnui 
Donald(P) 
Hunt(P) 
Robson 
Donnelly(P) 
Kedgley 
Roy 
Duncan 
King 
Samuels(P) 
Teller: 
Dyson 
Laban(P) 
Shirley 
Pettis 
Noes 55 
Adams 
Dunne(P) 
O’Connor 
Tamihere 
Alexander 
Duynhoven(P) 
Ogilvy 
te Heuheu 
Ardern(P) 
Eckhoff 
Paraone 
Tisch 
Baldock(P) 
English(P) 
Perry 
Turia(P) 
Brash(P) 
Field 
Peters J (P) 
Turner(P) 
Brown 
Franks 
Peters W (P) 
Wang 
Brownlee(P) 
Goudie(P) 
Power(P) 
Williamson 
Carter D (P) 
Gudgeon 
Robertson 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter J (P) 
Heatley 
Ryall 
Worth(P) 
Catchpole 
Hutchison(P) 
Scott(P) 
Coddington 
Jones 
Smith L 
Collins 
Key(P) 
Smith M 
Connell(P) 
McCully(P) 
Smith N (P) 
Copeland 
McNair 
Sowry(P) 
Teller: 
Cosgrove 
Newman 
Stewart 
Mapp 
Motion agreed to. 
Bill read a second time. 
Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Amendment Bill 
Third Reading 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Senior Citizens) 
: 
 I move  
That the Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Amendment Bill be now read a third time 
. The bill significantly increases the amount of assets that our older people requiring residential care can retain. The New Zealand population is expected to age significantly in the coming decades. This is likely to increase demand for funding for aged-care services. So to address this issue in a fiscally responsible manner a staged approach to reduce the impact of asset testing has been chosen. From 1 July next year the asset threshold for single people will rise from $15000 to $150000. That new threshold also applies to couples with both partners in care. Asset testing will be completely removed for people aged 50 to 64 from the same time. 
The Government considers that it is legitimate to expect people to contribute towards some of the costs of their care because those costs would need to be met while they are living at home. As such the income test is retained. From 1 July next year residents will be required to pay only the district health board contract price for rest-home care in their local area for the basic package of services. However as is the current situation residents will be able to pay additional fees for services that are clearly additional to the contract. The total cost of the changes is forecast at $110 million in the first year of implementation. This figure will rise substantially over time reflecting the $10000 annual increases to the asset thresholds and the growing number of people in our older population. The Government has made separate provision for the additional funding to pay for these changes. This funding will not reduce the amount currently allocated to disability and health services. 
The bill sets out the residential care subsidy scheme in a clear and comprehensive manner and includes aspects of the income and asset-testing regime that are currently found only in administrative policy and practice. That includes processes for needs assessment financial means assessment and matters such as gifting allowances and the residential care loan scheme. The changes provided for in the bill will make substantial progress towards fair and affordable policies for older people who need long-term care while retaining an appropriate mechanism for older people to contribute to those costs of care they would expect to pay if living in their own homes. 
In conclusion I thank particularly the health officials who have worked so hard on this legislation but also the members of the select committee for their valuable contribution towards its progress. 
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
: 
 In following on from the Minister I tell the House that I was a member of the Social Services Committee for part of the process of this bill so I would like to thank her for acknowledging the work of the members of that select committee. Unfortunately often in the House Ministers thank only the chair of a select committee and forget that committees sit only because there is a quorum and only because other members are involved and take an active part in committees. In terms of this particular bill we in the National Party are supporting it but not without some reservations. Certainly the area of long-term residential care for the elderly is absolutely fraught with difficulties. We have an ageing population. At the moment when other people look at the population and see people of my age they ask whether there will be anyone available to pay for our old-age care. That is a long-term concern and it is why some of the changes were made in the last decade in relation to trying to keep people in their own homes for as long as possible. That was one of the reasons for that because obviously the taxpayers of New Zealand could not continue to keep paying for the full cost of care for people unless there was a real and an absolute need. 
Some particular concerns were raised at the select committee. I would like to thank the submitters to the select committee because those people were from various walks of life. They put together submissions that were incredibly helpful because they often spoke from personal experience. In this particular area submissions came from people who provide or have provided care for the elderly and also for family members of the elderly from the New Zealand Law Society—which always puts in very sensible submissions—and from groups like Age Concern which I have had quite a bit to do with recently over a matter. In relation to the submissions one of the most disturbing things was to find that agencies like The Salvation Army are finding it and have now found it just too hard to be providers in this area. That is to do with costs. 
We already know that we cannot have a bottomless pit when it comes to the costs of caring for the elderly but unfortunately the costs imposed on the industry extend well past the very small increase that it had in about 2002 I think it was—or something like that. That was a very small increase. Since then the industry has had extra occupational safety and health costs extra accident compensation levy costs and the Holidays Act costs. And of course the businesses are a 24-hour 7-day-a-week job so they cannot say they are going to close on some days— they cannot take that measure. Then there has been the extra cost of rates. Many of us who own property know that council rates have gone up. There is also the cost of food which has risen substantially in the last 5 years and the providers have had to wear that increase. Then there has been of course the sherry tax. The one little bit of gladness that many of the elderly have is a little drop of sherry but its cost has gone up. 
The biggest increased cost that the elder-care area is about to face is in the wages of caregivers. We in the Health Committee—a different select committee—have been hearing submissions in relation to the wages of caregivers and I think that it is appropriate to discuss at this moment the fact that we know that caregivers who work in long-term residential care establishments are not being paid enough. We know that many of those people work for less than the minimum wage if we take into account some of the costs they have to incur and that they are in fact the people who keep our elderly going. It is a real travesty that on the one hand we are saying that we will increase the asset-testing level for the elderly—which National supports—but on the other hand we have whole groups of providers in the industry like The Salvation Army going out of business. At the same time we have the caregivers existing on wages that are simply not acceptable in a country that likes to think of itself as part of the First World. 
One of the interesting things I found was the fact that the not-for-profit organisations that own residential care facilities were often in a tougher position and were finding it harder to survive than some of the bigger profit-based organisations. I think that that is to do with the fact that the not-for profit organisations are often looking after older premises and the cost of maintaining them is often higher than that of newer premises. In fact those organisations may not have the same business systems in place as the profit-based organisations or they may have cultures that are not necessarily focused on being able to do the best they can. Often they cut corners which is really hard for the elderly. It is an absolute tragedy that Presbyterian Support services have exited the area and that The Salvation Army has said it will sell all its facilities—that is if it can find a buyer. One of the really sad things is that it has to be able to find a buyer—and for what? Yet at the same time The Salvation Army is being told in legislation that there is a set amount it will be paid. I cannot for the life of me understand why we stipulate in legislation exactly what the price is to be when we should take into account the fact that prices must and do rise with inflation and the fact that there will be extra fuel costs and extra heating costs. Electricity costs for instance have gone through the roof in the last 5 years. 
We should be able to have a mechanism in the bill that states to the people who do provide long-term residential care for the elderly that we can as a country and as taxpayers take those costs into account. So I do not know why we are putting through legislation that states the exact amount of the payment when that could be more easily and much more succinctly dealt with in terms of regulations or even by way of a ministerial or a Ministry of Health ruling. Putting the amount into legislation sets it now and we will not be able to change it for some time because of the long legislative process that that involves. The Government has been sitting on this legislation for the last 5 years so there has hardly been a fast turn-round. I do not think a change will happen for a little while yet—not until after the next election when we are in power. 
One of the things that is very very important is to keep promises. The Labour members told people all the way through the 1990s and all the way through the last couple of elections that they would remove asset testing for the elderly. They knew that there was no realistic opportunity to do that without putting the country into a dire financial situation and they said it anyway. Unfortunately Labour has delivered to the elderly in New Zealand yet another half-truth. Unfortunately it has said to the elderly it will pass this legislation for them but it will make it harder for them to even get a place in long-term residential care because it will make it harder for the providers to make a living and because the wages of the caregivers as we know are very low. Labour has gnashed its teeth and talked about this issue a lot. It has been in power for 5 years and has not done anything about it. 
We now have an aged-care situation that is absolutely chronic. I have a family member who works in that area and I know that the people who work in the area go the extra mile. They are often dealing with people who are much more unwell and elderly than they were 20 years ago when they went into rest homes private hospitals or long-term residential care. Now we have a situation whereby as the Minister said to us last night the elderly going into those facilities stay on average only 18 months. Twenty years ago the average might have been 10 or 20 years—a much much longer time. That is because people are going into care later in life when they are much more elderly and much sicker. They are often near the very end of their lives so the intensity of care and nursing has increased. Yet we are keeping the providers down to levels of pay that basically mean that staff have not had pay increases for over a decade. That is a travesty and it is one that we in the National Party are very concerned about. We are very concerned that that strategy does not help our elderly and does not help their families. 
STEVE CHADWICK (Labour—Rotorua) 
: 
 It is my pleasure to take a call in the third reading of this bill. This is yet another promise delivered from the Labour Government. The older people in our communities know that we went out in 1999 and said that this is exactly what we would do. If only the Opposition understood about fiscal responsibility. When we got into Government and began to cost this bill in order to keep the promise we found the cost to be exorbitant. With the fiscally responsible hands of Dr Cullen on the tiller and the urgings of Ruth Dyson as the Minister responsible for older persons we have delivered a package today that the older people in our communities will be more than happy with. They also do understand because they are sensible and wise that we will implement this strategy over time. I am delighted to have this bill in the House today. I support it. 
BILL GUDGEON (NZ First) 
: 
 First of all New Zealand First would like to thank the Minister and those members who were on the Social Services Committee for their contribution to the Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Amendment Bill. We have all had the opportunity to peruse this bill. Statements concerning promises made by the Labour Government to the elderly have really had a good airing in the House in the last 2 days. There have been concerns raised repeatedly but New Zealand First is here to ensure that our elderly will have the entitlements that they deserve. This bill does not entirely implement what our elderly deserve but it is a step in the right direction. New Zealand First is well aware of the shortcomings of the bill and our advice to the elderly is to be patient as help is on the way. New Zealand First is committed to supporting this bill and the accompanying Supplementary Order Papers bearing in mind that we are not entirely satisfied with all the details. However this legislation is a move in the right direction and has the potential for improvement. I will be brief. New Zealand First urges the Government to bear in mind that not all the elderly are in the same circumstances financially or with regard to assets. If in the future adjustments need to be made we urge the House to look upon the situation sympathetically. New Zealand First supports this bill. 
Dr MURIEL NEWMAN (Deputy Leader—ACT) 
: 
 The ACT party will oppose this bill on the basis of three different arguments. The first is that it is an example of poor policy. It is based on the need to buy votes not on the needs of those people at whom it is targeted. The second reason is that it will impose an enormous cost burden on New Zealand taxpayers into the future and particularly on our younger people. In a way it could be described as intergenerational theft. The third reason we will oppose the bill is that in effect it is the nationalisation of aged care. The Government is driving out providers in the marketplace—providers like The Salvation Army which has been there for almost 100 years. We will end up with a situation where the Government is the monopoly purchaser of residential care for the elderly. I would like to discuss each of these three points in my contribution. 
I go first to the policy issue—the fact that it is poor policy. There are really two reasons why laws are passed by Parliament. The first is that Government agencies have looked at a problem that confronts New Zealand society and have come up with some sensible solutions whereby laws need to be changed so that those concerns can be addressed by the Government of the day. The second reason why policy is passed into law by Parliament is that a political party decides it wants to do so usually because it is appealing to a particular voting group. 
In the 1999 election promises made by an airbrushed Prime Minister Helen Clark she essentially gave the promise that Labour would abolish asset testing of the elderly. She said in a brochure: “We say asset testing of older people is wrong. It will go.” Five years down the track here we are with a bill that gets started on the path towards removing asset testing for the elderly. The problem is that the promise was made in 1999. It is now 2004 and this bill will come into force in the middle of 2005. That is the first problem. The people who voted for Labour because they thought asset testing would go have had a long wait. 
The second point is that if we look at the detail of the bill we find that the year in which asset testing actually does go is 2026. A large number of the submissions to the select committee said that this is simply not good enough because the bill represents a broken promise by the Labour Party. Labour said it would abolish asset testing and it is doing no such thing. It is making a little move in that direction but it will actually take over 20 years for asset testing to go. New Zealanders who will be voting for Labour on the basis of this legislation had better hope they are here in 20 years’ time so that they live to see the promise become reality. 
Good policy is based on meeting a need. This bill will over time abolish asset testing for all New Zealanders who might need elderly care and the problem is that many of those people will be able to afford to pay for that care themselves. Here we are in Parliament passing a piece of law that will put an enormous cost burden on families who are struggling to make ends meet and who are trying to pay taxes that are far too high. The reason why taxes are far too high is as every New Zealander knows that the Government is sitting on a huge surplus. Governments should take just as much as they need. We have a Labour Party that is so greedy it takes way more than it needs and here it is burdening the taxpayers of the future with a piece of legislation that will cost them very dearly. 
If the Government were passing legislation now to help people in genuine need ACT would support it. But because it is not—because it will be asking struggling taxpayers of the future to pay for people who could well afford their own elderly care—we will not support it. 
The second issue is the cost burden. We have been told that the legislation will cost about $110 million a year. I understand that there are about 15000 people retiring every year at the moment. In 30 years’ time that number will be something like 55000. One does not have to be a mathematician to be able to figure out that the $110 million will blow out in the future as our ageing population goes into retirement and goes into the position of needing such care. The calculations I have seen put the eventual cost of this legislation—the simple bill we are passing into law today—at about $1 billion in the future. 
We just have to ask ourselves whether it is fair of the Labour Government to commit future generations of taxpayers to having to fund such a costly piece of legislation. Many of the people retiring in the future will not actually need to be supported by the taxpayer but will of course accept that support because the bill is being passed and will be available. I say that it is intergenerational theft. 
I heard a contribution from a Labour Party speaker who talked about fiscal responsibility. This bill is the antithesis of fiscal responsibility. This is a Government that simply wants to buy votes at the next election. It is a Government that says: “Oh gosh we made a promise; we’d better look like we’re keeping it.” It is not keeping its promise but it wants to be able to bluff voters into thinking that it is keeping its word when it is not. This is an appalling piece of legislation because it is not based on future need; it is based on political expediency now. 
The third issue is the nationalisation of the aged-care sector. We heard during the select committee process from many of the social care providers—I suppose we could say they are part of civil society because they are not Government agencies; they are charitable organisations trusts church-based groups and the like—that have traditionally provided aged care. We heard them telling us that unless the Government did something pretty quickly they would be driven out of the business. As we said in the debate earlier on this week already The Salvation Army has decided it will sell those facilities that it has been operating for many years. 
Those people told us that the straw that was breaking the camel’s back was the costs that this Labour Government has been imposing on them; the cost burden of extra regulation that they are having to comply with and then the additional costs of industrial relations including the extra costs of holiday pay ACC levy Occupational Safety and Health Service regulations and the 4 weeks’ holiday a year that will come up. The submitters told us that there are so many additional costs to employers these days they simply would not be able to continue to operate under the additional costs that have been put on by this Labour Government so they would look at having to quit. 
We have to say to ourselves that as a country having a flourishing sector providing those types of services is what we should be aiming for and it is a sad day when we have a bill that is driving that sort of provider out of New Zealand society. It is a sad day when I say that we have to oppose this bill. 
SUE KEDGLEY (Green) 
: 
 The Green Party will be supporting this legislation because it is our policy to abolish asset testing for residential care for the elderly. Like many of the submitters to the Social Services Committee we see the current asset-testing regime as iniquitous as it discriminates against one part of the population—the elderly. We note that in 1999 the Labour Party did make a solemn promise to remove asset testing. At that time the Labour Party seemed to appreciate—as the Green Party does—that older people have already spent a lifetime paying taxes which they presumed would assist with their care and support in later life when they would need help the most. Through the asset-testing system they now become the only category of citizens who are required to pay twice for long-term residential health care—once out of their taxes and then all over again if they have sufficient income and assets. They are essentially taxed twice. 
The bill moves in the direction of Green Party policy with regard to asset testing but it only moderates asset testing for residential care rather than abolishes it as other speakers have pointed out and it will not be removed for another 20 years. 
The Labour Party announced before the 2002 election that it would introduce legislation before the end of 2002 to phase out the asset test for residential care. So the bill is a year late in that context and furthermore it does not phase out asset testing as promised by the Labour Party. 
However we do feel that although it does not go far enough and remove asset testing altogether we will be supporting it but we are also concerned that it does not solve the other very real problem of adequate funding for residential care all around. However it does take some steps in the right direction. Like most other submitters apart from the ACT party—I am not sure what those members’ intentions might be for the elderly or how they envisage they will be treated when they are unable to care for themselves or for their own care—we support the legislation. 
I would also like to touch on the other issue that a number of other members in the debate have already touched on which is the incredible state of crisis in the aged-care sector. It is basically that the aged-care sector is in a state of crisis. Only today the Health Committee has released a report. We were looking in particular at home-care workers in the aged-care sector but the Health Committee in its entirety acknowledged that the sector is in a state of crisis. We were warned by submitters during our select committee inquiry that the entire sector could hit meltdown at Christmas if urgent action is not taken to not only significantly increase home-care workers’ wages but also the wages of aged-care workers in residential homes. We are extremely concerned that this would put the safety and care of vulnerable elderly New Zealanders at risk; in fact we believe that the crisis in the sector is already putting the safety not to mention the quality of care of our elderly at risk. 
There are turnover rates of home-care workers in some areas of New Zealand of 88 percent and it is 40 percent all around the country. Providers are pulling out of the market because of the acute chronic underfunding of the sector. So we believe that elderly being looked after in their own homes and in aged-care residential homes are becoming increasingly vulnerable and their care is at risk. Frankly the wages and conditions are rock bottom workers in the sector are being treated like Third World workers and home-care workers themselves are expected to provide their own transport and pay for their travel costs from their already rock-bottom meagre wages. It is in our view quite frankly shocking. As a result home-care workers and others are walking away from the industry which was already in crisis. 
The Government must do something to address this crisis other than pass this legislation because otherwise the elderly will really be at risk in their own homes and in the aged-care sector. 
It is tragic to see a wonderful institution like The Salvation Army which has been providing care for more than 70 years announcing that it is pulling out of the sector. It is a well-respected carer. I remember The Salvation Army marching alongside the Labour Party on the Hikoi of Hope and now it is having to pull out of providing what it wishes to do. It has been providing care for the vulnerable elderly of New Zealand for 70 years in a very respected way. It is having to close down for no other reason than lack of funding. 
I have a release here from the sector basically stating that make no mistake about it there is a direct correlation between the Government’s mean-spirited 1 percent funding offer and The Salvation Army being forced out of residential care for the elderly. That release is from Martin Taylor the chief executive officer of Residential Care New Zealand. The question we have to ask is what this says about the values of a Labour Government that would let this situation happen. The sector is basically urging at least a 3 percent counteroffer from the Government to address this year’s inflation. If it does not offer that what will happen to the elderly in New Zealand? 
I am sure that all of us in this House and most New Zealand families have elderly relatives in residential care and aged-care facilities. We are acutely aware on a daily basis of the crisis that is affecting the elderly. I have a number of direct family members in the aged-care sector and in their particular home there was a crisis. There was a threat and a risk that the whole home would be shut down. That is tragic to someone who has been living there for a number of years. What do we do with them and what do we do with that sector? 
In summary the Greens are pleased to support this bill. It takes a modest step in the right direction although it does it over a much longer period of time than we would wish. It is our policy to abolish asset testing for residential care altogether. We do believe that it is iniquitous. We are extraordinarily concerned as other speakers have said about the deepening crisis in the aged-care sector and in residential care homes. We urge the Government to listen to the two petitions and the select committee report today and to do something to increase the wages of homecare workers. The truth of the matter is that when we take out the cost of driving between clients homecare workers are receiving below the minimum wage and in some cases as little as $2 to $3 an hour. That is scandalous. 
PAUL ADAMS (United Future) 
: 
 I rise on behalf of United Future to speak to the third reading of the Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Amendment Bill. This bill has had the support of the entire number of parties in Parliament apart from ACT. In all fairness the deputy chair of the Social Services Committee Muriel Newman made some great contributions towards this bill during the committee’s discussions on it. I believe she had her head round the issues that we are talking about today and that have been coming through in the majority of the speeches from the Opposition parties but because of the philosophy of her party she has chosen to vote against the bill and I respect that. 
However as we discussed these issues at the select committee the main thing that came up from contributor after contributor from all the parties apart from Labour was the unanimous agreement that there were issues that we needed to deal with. Strangely only the Government members of the committee were very quiet on those. This is a Government bill. I am only a first-term MP and I could not understand why those issues which had been very clearly put before the select committee were not being dealt with. All the non-Government members sitting around that table voiced their concern and said that the issues that had been brought to our attention definitely needed to be dealt with. It was unanimous. Yet when we questioned the officials we were told time after time that those issues had nothing to do with the legislation and could be dealt with only by Government policy. 
These are serious issues affecting the elderly in this nation. Those people have in many cases been through two world wars. They have been through the Depression. They have seen Government after Government. I clearly remember my dad saying to me that if he had to tighten his belt one more time he would have to cut himself in half. Now those people are in rest homes and care centres throughout this nation. 
It is not that there are not people who want to care for them because there are. We heard from some wonderful groups of people who were passionate about caring for the elderly. But they have had a ceiling put on their funding. There has been no allowance for inflation. Those people have had burden upon burden put upon them as they have had to deal with compliance cost after compliance cost. They have had to operate in an environment in which we have a low unemployment level—which we are very joyful about. They run a 24-hour care service and have to compete against the nursing sector and hospitals for staff. Those people are being squeezed out. As I said previously when a well-respected organisation like The Salvation Army says it cannot afford to help and care for elderly people then I say to the Government “Shame! Shame on you if you will not take the time to address these issues!”. 
If these issues are a case of Government policy then United Future stands again in this third reading and says that the Government needs to bring that policy to its Cabinet table. I believe that all Opposition parties in this House would agree with me and would echo my concerns that it is absolutely and totally unacceptable that we can put this sector at risk—and it is definitely at risk now. Yet there is nothing on the visible horizon that it can see that can help it. That is a concern to me. 
I have also previously said that these issues occur not only amongst those who care for the elderly; the very same issues affect those who look after the disabled in this nation. They do a fantastic job yet they are hamstrung by lack of finances. 
I say that these elderly people who have worked hard and diligently in this nation deserve better in their latter days. United Future will support this bill because a small part of it removes asset testing. I do not believe that anybody believes that these people in their last days should have to go through such a regime. But really that is the only issue that this bill is dealing with. All the major issues concerning the elderly in this nation have not been dealt with in this bill because they are Government policy. United Future says to the Government that it should address that Government policy urgently for the sake of the elderly in this nation. 
LINDSAY TISCH (National—Piako) 
: 
 It has been an interesting debate. When we look back to 1996 at the Labour Party’s policy in this area it said in its manifesto that it would remove asset testing. Labour repeated that at the 1999 election and many older folk voted on the basis that asset testing would be reduced. This was not about reducing or diluting asset testing but in fact that it would be abolished. This bill moves in the right direction but still does not go as far as National would have expected. Although we will be supporting this as we have done thus far we have some major concerns in the whole aged-care area—home care rest homes and other residential-care facilities. In fact as one member previously said: “It is in crisis mode.” I have been to see a number of rest homes in my Piako electorate in Cambridge Matamata and Huntly over recent times and they tell me that the viability of their operations is becoming very suspect. It is suspect because of increasing costs that they are having to incur with the movement of people from the district health board hospitals back out into rest homes. They are not able to handle it. They have a fixed price in which to operate and are expected to pick up more and more of the costs for those residents. 
I have heard the Government say “Ah but rest homes are doing extremely well.” Well some are. But if we look at those that have done well they have been cross-subsidised. They are being subsidised because they have a hospital unit attached to them or more particularly they have a retirement village associated with them. So if we were to look at those in their context one could say that with a degree of cross-subsidisation they are doing OK. But those stand-alone rest home operators who have to have a registered nurse on call 24 hours a day are at the stage now where the viability of their operation is very very suspect. In fact in our area there is one operator that is moving into receivership. I have met with them and the viability and the whole concern over patient care rest care and security for those residents is very much up in the air. 
If we were to look at what is happening in the home-care sector that astounds me as well because of the low pay that we are expecting the providers to give to their workers. I had a lady come to me about a month ago who had not had a shower for 10 weeks because the provider providing that service and being paid for it did not turn up. I have certainly taken that on board. 
The other area where there have been huge costs associated with this sector is in the certification. Members will be aware that certification came in in October and all rest homes had to meet certain standards. That is fine. There is no difficulty with that. But when it comes off the bottom line and the costs of some of the certification have reached in excess of $30000 to $40000 then that is very hard to recoup. With the audits that will come up on an 18-month basis once again there will be compliance costs that are not being funded by the Government or by the residents who in most cases do not have the ability to pay. 
On top of that the other compliance costs that have been mentioned by previous speakers in the Holidays Act the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill and Occupational Safety and Health Service regulations all impose great constraints on the ability to be able to operate a viable proposition. 
Where there is only one rest home in an area that becomes the focal point for a lot of people in that region. In the electorate I represent that is the case. When that rest home closes and moves into receivership there is a crisis at hand. The Government should say that it will provide security and supply the quality of care that is important for our ageing population. While asset testing and what this legislation aims to do is fine in that respect it will be no good for those who need rest home care when there is no place for them to go. I am afraid that that is what is happening in rural areas in particular where costs are extremely high people need to have transport to get to the doctor and to be able to bring in supplies. It is not like living in a city where people can go to the local pharmacist and people can get to the local hospital if they need to be there. In provincial New Zealand the task is serious. 
To the Government I say that this is a very serious matter. While we agree with and support the bill in its context major challenges are ahead and they rest in the Government’s hands. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the Social Security (Long-term Residential Care) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. 
Ayes 108 
New Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2; Maori Party 1. 
Noes 9 
ACT New Zealand 9. 
Bill read a third time. 
Sittings of the House 
DARREN HUGHES (Junior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 In light of the progress the House has made during the week and recognising the fact that today is our Speaker’s 66th birthday it might be appropriate for the House to rise 6½ minutes early. I seek leave for you Madam Deputy Speaker to leave the Chair. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is not. 
The House adjourned at 5.53 p.m.