Ngaro AlfredFAMILIES COMMISSION ACT REPEAL BILLIn CommitteeDebate resumed from 10 May.Parts 1 and 2 schedules 1 and 2 and clauses 1 and 2 (continued)Hon ALFRED NGARO (National): I appreciate finishing the call even though it's 40 seconds. I know that my good friend and colleague across the aisle there Greg O'Connor is just waiting with bated breath just to hear every word that I may say especially in regards to this bill. I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Could I just have the counter—just so I do know where I'm at please? CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I'll just let the member know when I count it down. Hon ALFRED NGARO: Thank you Mr Chair. Kieran McAnulty: Stop stalling. Hon ALFRED NGARO: Of course this is particularly for my other colleague across the aisle there the honourable member Kieran Filibuster" McAnulty as well just so that he is aware. The line of inquiry is my question to the Minister in regard to social investment. So when we were talking about the whole aspect of the Families Commission Act Repeal Bill—and we were all supporting this bill right across the House—my question to the Minister in regard to the aspect of the social policy evaluation and research unit (SuPERU) and the roles that are now being appropriated to the different ministries is will they still follow—[Bell rung] Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I call the Hon Alfred Ngaro. Hon ALFRED NGARO: Thank you Mr Chair. I'll look forward to now continuing on. The question to the Minister in the chair Carmel Sepuloni is that she made some comments previously during the debate in the committee stage about the fact that the difference that this Government will take is that it's going to be more about the people and not about the money and that fiscal responsibility is secondary to responsibilities of the care and welfare and well-being of family and whānau. My challenge to the Minister is that it's not an either/or; actually it's a both. As I had also indicated in my previous speech the Minister has obviously become acutely aware of that when it comes to Budget time because the fact is that when you need the resources to do the things that you think are important then that's where fiscal responsibility becomes critically important. So my question to the Minister is in regard to the line of inquiry that she will take that has come out of the development work of social investment and in this regard with SuPERU because the line of inquiry around social investment asks some very pertinent questions. The questions are this: for all that we invest into the system of government—and in this regard social development—how do we know that we're getting a return and how do we know that the resources we've put in are surely making a difference to the family and the whānau that we are working with? Now if the Minister can actually give us some response to that—and I'll get even more particular around social investment. And again to the members across the aisle they may need to know about this. Social investment includes things like for instance client segmentation. In other words how do we know that the whānau and family we're working with are the most vulnerable? It asks some pertinent questions. I know the Minister has talked about data but also too in a sense it's not the requesting of the data that's important. When we were going through previously as the Government of the day the importance of data was ensuring that we were actually appropriating the resource to the right whānau and family. That's the reason why social investment was important and so I'd like to hear from the Minister that she and the ministry will still be following that line of inquiry. The other aspect was around intervention innovation. In other words why not question the innovations of the programmes that are being delivered? Are they being delivered appropriately? Are they delivered in a way that truly does make a difference? If I think for instance of some of our whānau and our family there is the diversity of need and there's the diversity of those families in their make-up and it's critically important for us to understand that. Therefore again under the line of inquiry for social investment are she and the ministry still going to follow that line that asks the question around the intervention innovation? In other words are we going to be strong enough to challenge some of that process both from the ministry itself and also from the contracted-out services and the procurement of services inside the NGO sector inside our service providers as well that truly make a difference? In that case and in some cases is she open to them looking at the procurement of services around that line of inquiry that may mean services that are run in a sense more like businesses in their offering that they have? The bottom line—the question in the line of inquiry around social investment—is what works best for the whānau and who can deliver that best for them and I think that's critically important as well. Again I think about the appropriation role so again just another question to the Minister is around the appropriations. I know that the member Greg O'Connor talked about the fact that this is "Let's not get caught up in the detail. Let's not get caught up in social investment Better Public Services—next thing we'll be counting paper clips staples and pins." and yet in his speech he talked about the increase around family violence of $76.157 million. So I mean he's a man of detail and he's particular and what social investment is about is also that detail. So to the Minister in regard to the roles and responsibility that are being appropriated—the appropriations role—if she could confirm to us who will be taking up that role and which Minister will be doing that. The third question to the Minister is in regard to the social science expert panel and we think that's critically important because the role that they play is to question and query but also to ensure that the framework and the line of inquiry as I've been talking about is ensuring that we have the science and we have the data that's appropriated so therefore we have the right results which focus our policy and our direction as well. I think those are important. So those are just some questions that I'd like to pose to the Minister and I'd like to hear some response. I think it's important. Again I want to just complete my speech by saying that I do hope that she continues on the work of social investment. I think it's proven itself to be critically important to again the transition of SuPERU into its different roles in the Ministry of Social Development and also the Ministry of Justice so I support this direction."