Robertson Grant: Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill — In Committee 
Robertson Grant: Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:673;Page:19836] 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 I will respond to the questions raised by my colleagues Iain Lees-Galloway and Su’a William Sio although at the outset I should clarify that the Minister who was interjecting on Su’a William Sio was Maurice Williamson not Murray McCully. Few insults cut deeper than being called Murray McCully I have to say. On behalf of the Labour Party I apologise to the Minister for such an egregious insult. 
Su’a William Sio asked whether bringing in the humanities to the functions of the Royal Society adds an element to the question of there being no dividend to members. In a sense the answer to the member’s question is no because section 8 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Act which is amended by clause 8 of the Royal Society of New Zealand Amendment Bill states quite clearly: “The income and property of the Society must be applied solely towards the object of the Society and … no portion of the income … may be paid directly or indirectly by way of dividend bonus or otherwise to members.” So it is actually quite clear. It is comprehensive. 
Section 8 then lists a series of exceptions for where money can be paid to members. Before I come to those exceptions it is worth clarifying—again in response to another question that Su’a William Sio asked—the nature of the members of the Royal Society. We will in debate on future clauses I hope be able to go through this matter in some detail. The different kinds of members include the Fellows of the Royal Society. There is quite a process to become a Fellow of the Royal Society. 
Paul Quinn 
: That’s me isn’t it? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: No Mr Quinn has not quite made Fellow of the Royal Society. In fact I am looking at the list of people who can be members of the Royal Society. Section 9 of the Act goes all the way down to paragraph (h) but unfortunately there is no mention of fools. Fools are not allowed in the Royal Society at all so Mr Quinn is out. Membership of the Royal Society includes fellows ordinary members companions constituent organisations honorary members and honorary fellows. One can apply to be a member of the Royal Society. Mr Quinn may choose to do that at some point in the future. 
Paul Quinn 
: How do you know I’m not a member? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I have a membership list here I say to Mr Quinn. Would he like me to read through it? I do not think we will find Mr Quinn in the Royal Society’s membership. If he is a member however I may choose to withdraw my sponsorship of the bill as I would be concerned about the standards of the Royal Society. 
Section 8 states that those people I have listed as members—not Mr Quinn but the fellows the ordinary members and the companions—cannot have dividends or profits from the Royal Society except where remuneration is returned for services rendered or goods supplied. One example of this would be if a member or a fellow of the Royal Society was on a panel to choose the winner of one of the awards perhaps the Rutherford Medal or something like that. They would no doubt have costs associated with serving on those panels therefore they would fall under section 8(2)(a) of the current Act. They would receive some recompense from the Royal Society for doing that. That is the exception to the overall rule that no dividend or profit should be given to members. 
The other specific area that is worth noting is section 8(2)(d) of the Act which is about the grant of awards or prizes. They are the members the fellows and the companions of the Royal Society who win a prize from the Royal Society. I am not sure whether Mr Quinn has been awarded any medals by the Royal Society but others have been. For example the Rutherford Medal which is the pre-eminent medal awarded by the Royal Society has gone to people like Richard Faull; Paul Callaghan; the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Adviser Peter Gluckman; and Alan MacDiarmid the renowned physicist. They have won the Rutherford Medal. All of those people are in addition— 
Paul Quinn 
: Any Maoris? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Yes I am sure there have been. I will come back to that. 
Paul Quinn 
: Well do you know? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Thank you for asking me the question. I will come back in a future call to answer that question. 
Louise Upston 
: How many women? What’s the gender balance? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: There are not enough women I say to Louise Upston. Not enough women have been given awards by the Royal Society because sadly science does not have enough women in it. Adding in the humanities will broaden the number of women who will be eligible for medals. 
One of the awards I say to Mr Quinn and Ms Upston given out by the Royal Society is the Dame Joan Metge Medal for social sciences. That award is given for excellence and achievement in the social sciences. Interestingly one of the prizes and awards already available to members of the Royal Society is the Humanities Aronui Medal. So the Royal Society has actually been getting on with integrating the humanities inside the Royal Society while we work our way carefully through this bill. That medal is already available. It is an example of a dividend or profit going to a member of the Royal Society when they receive for instance the Dame Joan Metge Medal for social sciences. They are the main classes by which members can receive what could be considered a profit or a dividend of the society. 
Another interesting exclusion is the repayment of money borrowed or the payment of interest on money borrowed. It seems odd to think that the Royal Society may at some point have to borrow money from people. I have not got an explanation for how that provision came to be part of the Act. I presume that at the beginning of the establishment of the Royal Society there may have been a need for the society to borrow money from individuals perhaps at a branch level where smaller operations occur from time to time. I thought it was curious to see that within section 8(2)(b). 
The main reasons that people can get a dividend or profit out of the Royal Society is that they have done work perhaps on behalf of the society in terms of being on panels that award medals. The Royal Society also undertakes research and advocacy into certain areas. When that work takes people away from their regular work they do get recompense. In a previous life before being in Parliament when I worked for the University of Otago I knew of a number of Otago University academics who spent time on Royal Society projects. The university would have been reimbursed for that time by the Royal Society. That is the kind of activity that is done. I say that in answer to Mr Lees-Galloway who asked for an example. 
The other part of it is about those who win awards or prizes. In the brief time I have remaining in this call it is worth noting that the range of prizes awards and medals that the Royal Society gives out reflects incredibly well on the scientific—and now humanities—community of New Zealand and its standards. The people who have received those medals and awards—and therefore received some financial gain as allowed for under section 8 of the Act—are a catalogue of some of the highest-quality science and innovation that one could see anywhere in the world. 
The Royal Society plays an excellent role in fostering that and ensuring that there is financial reward for those people. Science and the humanities in particular are often fragile existences: people trying to have a career in academia—and Dr Choudhary knows this—are required to do teaching and they are required to have other responsibilities within their academic institution. To then have the ability to undertake the kind of ground-breaking research that we need in New Zealand to foster innovation and to grow our economy those people need some financial recompense. The Royal Society can from time to time give that financial recompense. 
I know that the Rutherford Medal which I mentioned before has a significant financial benefit associated with it and that is why it has gone to scientists of the calibre of Richard Faull Paul Callaghan and Peter Gluckman. It has enabled them to push ahead with ground-breaking research that is outside of their normal employment within the academic institutions that those gentlemen all work in. That is why it is important that we have clause 8 because it makes sure that we are clear that nobody is in the Royal Society just to make money. It is not about the profit. But there will be occasions such as winning awards and prizes when money that the Royal Society has generated will go to members. I think that clause 8 is very well crafted. 
In terms of updating the Act we are now including the humanities alongside science and technology among the classes of members who will be able to get that financial benefit. As I think I have said in a previous contribution I look forward to the day when the pre-eminent medal of the Royal Society the Rutherford Medal goes to someone from the humanities. That will be a sign that the Royal Society has fully embraced the new class of membership that the society has within it. It would be a great occasion for New Zealand to perhaps see someone who has worked in both the sciences and the humanities take up that provision.