Alcohol Reform Bill — Procedure In Committee 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Alcohol Reform Bill — Procedure In Committee 
[Sitting date: 23 October 2012. Volume:685;Page:6046. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Alcohol Reform Bill 
Procedure 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Before you put the House into Committee on the Alcohol Reform Bill can I seek from you a clear statement about which votes you have decided are to be personal votes and which are not; also an indication as to where some parties are having conscience votes and others are not and you have decided that they will be party votes and not personal votes whether or not a bell will ring because I know that some members are going to be listening to the debate in Committee before committing themselves to a particular position; and the third leg of the treble if you like is an indication that although in some cases there will be a split party vote individual members are still able notwithstanding the fact that the party has voted on a split basis to vote as individuals under the category “any other votes”? 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for the point of order because we do need some clarification around these points. All members will have received from the Speaker a list of those amendments that will be deemed personal votes. There are five of them. I will just run through them now. 
The sinking lid on off-licences—and that is the amendment on the Te Ururoa Flavell Supplementary Order Paper 81 to clause 35B—is one; a ban on off-licences within 1 kilometre of schools is on Supplementary Order Paper 107; reduced trading hours is on Te Ururoa Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper 81; reduced trading hours is on Andrew Little’s Supplementary Order Paper 110; and there is the amendment requiring regulations to ban the sale of ready-to-drink beverages when they contain more than 5 percent of alcohol. Those are the five. 
I will expect that those chairing each session in the Chamber will make very clear as we approach those what the procedures will be in relation to the ringing of the bell and the various procedures that will take place in relation to the votes at the time. I think we want to have a very clear understanding of what the outcomes will be and that will be made clear from the Chair because some of these are some time ahead and there may even be some developments but I expect members will have a very clear understanding at the time. I hope that answers the member’s question. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Not quite Mr Speaker. There were two further matters and the first is that on votes that you have indicated you are not going to allow a personal vote on but which some parties in the Chamber have a conscience vote on whether or not a bell will be rung for those. And then the next question is for those votes although I understand that members have given proxies to other members for the party votes as you have indicated whether there was provision for members who want to wait and listen to the debate to then vote in the category of “any other votes”? 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: There can be only a party or personal vote. The bell is rung only for a personal vote. Party or collective voting has not been removed from the ultimate right of a member to vote on any question he or she sees fit. Where a party vote is held all members will be able to vote but it will be a member’s responsibility to be present and have a party vote issued. So it is up to the individuals. 
In Committee 
Debate resumed from 30 August. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: We are in Committee on the Alcohol Reform Bill. Before we commence the debate on Part 1 I need to correct the vote on the minimum age for sale and purchase. The vote for 18 years is 68 not 69. The vote for 20 years remains 53. The record will be amended accordingly. 
Part 1 Preliminary matters 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I am pleased to take a call on Part 1 “Preliminary matters”. I guess this is a very important part of the bill the Alcohol Reform Bill because it sets up the substance of what the legislation is designed to achieve. I just want to reflect on the purpose of the legislation for a start and then talk about the object clause which is clause 4. The purpose is to ensure that the legislation itself is “for the benefit of the community as a whole”. I think that that is a really important statement to have in the legislation but unfortunately there are many communities throughout New Zealand who will feel that this law does not go far enough in order to address the many concerns that they have raised. 
In my time in Parliament I have never seen so many communities take to the streets to protest against the issuing of licences as has been the case in the last couple of years. We have seen people in South Auckland we have seen people in Porirua we have seen people in Christchurch and we have seen people in different parts of the country all take a very strong stand when they see another licensed premise open up for business or propose to be open for business. I think that the Liquor Licensing Authority itself when one looks at the decisions that it has been making over the years is actually starting to see and respond to what is quite a serious concern coming from the community. It certainly is driven by the community which is why we are pleased to see the expression “for the benefit of the community as a whole” as one of the principal statements right up there in the purpose clause. 
The purpose clause goes on to say that the purpose is “to put in place a new system of control over the sale and supply of alcohol”. I guess we have moved on in terms of the language; the previous law was around the sale and supply of liquor. Then it talks about the characteristics that are established in subclause (2). This describes the characteristics of the new system as being “reasonable” and states that “its administration helps to achieve the object of this Act.” In a way I could say that actually the characteristics of the new system are not going to be deemed reasonable just by definition or by use of the language in the legislation; it will be how it is actually implemented on the ground. That was a fundamental flaw in the Sale of Liquor Act. It had in fact a very strong purpose statement but that purpose was not reflected in any way shape or form in any of the elements of the legislation. So when you are looking for harm-reduction measures in the legislation as it exists today you will be hard-pressed to find them and that has been one of the challenges that the Liquor Licensing Authority has had to face. 
The other element is “to reform more generally the law relating to the sale supply and consumption of alcohol so that its effect and administration help to achieve the object of this Act.” Again I think that it is very important to reflect that the legislation is only part of the story. It cannot ever be the whole story. I think my husband uses a very good expression which I use from time to time and that is that “Red lights don’t stop trains.” As a former train driver and now a lawyer he certainly has seen the practical implication of that particular expression. What it means is that you can have all of the lights showing red but that is not going to stop the train from crashing through a barrier or stopping in time to prevent disaster from occurring unless those brakes are applied by somebody in time. That is what this bill is actually all about as well. We have got a framework piece of legislation for the legislative framework but it does require the community to take responsibility for the behaviour that we have seen associated with the consumption of alcohol and the damage that it has done to communities. 
I think that the community is facing up to that responsibility and that is why we have seen them take to the streets in droves. That is why we have seen so many people make submissions to the Law Commission report. Three thousand New Zealanders took the time to make submissions on something that really mattered. This is certainly a major change. It is a major change in direction and philosophy and I believe that the community is wanting Parliament to do a lot more than this legislation allows. 
I move on to the object clause. The object of this bill is that “the sale supply and consumption of alcohol should be undertaken safely and responsibly; and the harm caused by the excessive or inappropriate consumption of alcohol should be minimised.” Then it goes on to describe what the harm minimisation is about. I think this is when we start to see the dollars and cents that actually lie with the approach that we might be adopting if we went further than we are doing. The bill states: “any crime damage death disease disorderly behaviour illness or injury directly or indirectly caused or directly or indirectly contributed to by the excessive or inappropriate consumption of alcohol;”. That is every car smash on the street—every car smash leading to death or leading to injury. Think of all of the costs that are put on our ACC system and all of the costs that are put on our health system and then look at the crime. 
I just want to remind the Committee that the previous National Government before the last election held a ministerial meeting on the Drivers of Crime. It held that back in March 2009. It was actually one of the important initiatives that Simon Power and the Hon Dr Pita Sharples put together to try to get some group of people together to think about what were the drivers of crime. Alcohol came up time and time again not so much as a cause but as a driver. It is one of those fuels—kind of like petrol—that is set alight and all of the domestic violence all of the abuse of children and all of these things were tied back in many respects to the damage caused by alcohol. Then you come up with foetal alcohol syndrome and things like that. So you can see the harm that is done. 
The Labour caucus took a very hard decision. We decided that actually the ministerial meeting on the Drivers of Crime was so important that we would offer to work collaboratively with the Government on those drivers of crime particularly focusing on children aged nought to 12 in order to get a cross-party agreement on how that might be addressed. We decided not to look for elections with the rules changing every time there is a change of Government but to actually get a collaborative response around children aged nought to 12. What a difference that would have made. We would have been 3 years down the track on that by now if the Government had responded in a slightly better way than what we received. Simon Power wrote back to me on 16 November and said: “Following decisions made by Cabinet and the National caucus I would like to propose a policy matter upon which initial cooperation could commence: that being the sale and supply of alcohol. I consider that this is an appropriate starting point in light of your previous role in bringing the sale and supply of liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill before the House and the need to ensure that the legislative framework is coherent and enduring. This in no way precludes further cooperation on other policy issues relating to the drivers of crime if working together on the alcohol issue proves to be mutually agreeable.” 
 Well I have to say that it has not been mutually agreeable because there has not been an engagement over what this legislation should contain. That engagement actually stopped after that letter was received. When the Law Commission reported back the one advantage that I obtained was that I was enabled to have an embargoed copy of the report so that I could read it over the weekend before it was publicly announced. But apart from that the Government did not consult with us about the fact that it was going to vote out the bill that I had introduced the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill—vote it out get rid of it—and then introduce its own bill which does almost nothing more than what we already had in the legislation. To anyone who is going to get up in this Chamber and say that local communities are looking for their local alcohol plans—well those plans are 2 years overdue because the Government voted out the bill that would have delivered them 2 years ago in December 2010. In 2010 the Government made the decision not to proceed with the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill. 
As we go through the different parts of this bill we are going to establish that in fact there is almost nothing additional in this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill compared with what was in that bill and there was no reason why the Government could not have made slight amendments to that bill and it would have been passed by now. It would have been passed before the last election and every single community in New Zealand would have been able to go to their local council and ask for their local alcohol plan provisions to be given effect to. We know that there are councils throughout New Zealand that want to get on with the job but they have been delayed by this Government’s decision to change the name of the legislation and put it in its own name having for some reason absolutely beyond my comprehension decided not to proceed with the legislation that had already gone to the Justice and Electoral Committee had already had submissions on it and had already received significant support from one end of the country to the other. It did seem a complete waste of everyone’s time to require them to go back through that process again. In fact because of the proximity of that legislation going through the select committee and the Law Commission actually looking at the whole issue there were not as many submissions on that bill because people were in general agreement with it. 
The huge advantage of that piece of legislation was that it would have enabled us to deal with the blood-alcohol content issue which of course is not being dealt with in the context of this bill but which will be dealt with by way of a Supplementary Order Paper when we get to a new part being moved by my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway. I think it is a real shame that the Government has chosen to take this approach when I had a very promising letter dated 16 November 2009 with Simon Power being really very interested in working collaboratively with us and then I find that actually collaboration does not mean anything when it comes to alcohol. 
I do not believe that this House has really taken on board the object of this bill until we get to the later parts of the legislation. We keep coming back to the object of the bill. Is it going to minimise the harm caused by excessive or inappropriate consumption of alcohol? Are we going to see a reduction in crime? Are we going to see a reduction in “damage death disease disorderly behaviour illness or injury directly or indirectly caused or directly or indirectly contributed to by the excessive or inappropriate consumption of alcohol; and any harm to society generally or the community directly or indirectly caused or directly or indirectly contributed to by any crime damage death disease disorderly behaviour illness or injury” of that kind previously described? 
That to me is the essence of the debate that we have to have in this House. It is what the people of New Zealand are asking us to have: an honest open debate. We have to show courage in this House and we have to be prepared to make hard decisions about what would make a difference in terms of the availability in terms of the very low price and in terms of the issues that are not being dealt with in this bill. The public are asking why they are not being dealt with when this is the object of the bill. If we truly come back to the object in Part 1 of this bill every single time that we deal with a different part of this bill we will find that it is not going to live up to the expectation that the people of New Zealand are asking us to represent. I am surprised that the only issue that members have wanted to exercise some independence on is the question of age when we know that age is the least important of the five separate issues that we have been challenged to seriously look at by those who have expertise in this field. 
So I believe that as we go through this debate we will have the opportunity to debate the important matters but only because people have had the courage to put up Supplementary Order Papers in their own names and to take on board the attacks that will come from the industry particularly from the grocery and retail sector and also the large breweries. Even the Hospitality Association does not think this bill goes far enough and that to me says it all. There are many people out there who are relying on Parliament to get this right. We did not get it right in 1989. We certainly did not get it right in 1999. Let 2012 be different. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) 
: 
 The Sale of Liquor Act 1989 attempted to introduce a European cafe-style drinking culture in New Zealand. I would have to say that all the evidence shows that for some this has not worked although I would also acknowledge that although alcohol misuse contributes to crime—particularly domestic violence disorder and public health problems and roughly a third of all recorded crime involves offenders who have been drinking—most New Zealanders who drink alcohol do not abuse alcohol. So this bill attempts to strike a balance between dealing with the abuse of alcohol and sending some very strong signals and at the same time not penalising those many New Zealanders in the vast majority who do not abuse alcohol. 
The object of the bill is to minimise the harm caused by excessive drinking. Although as I have said many New Zealanders do not abuse alcohol there are sometimes times in their lives particularly when they are young and they are learning to behave with alcohol when they might in fact indulge in excessive drinking. We obviously do not want to see that and we would obviously like to have it stopped. But actually it has always been with us. It was with us before we had alcohol laws it is with us now and it will always be with us but that does not mean to say that we cannot take some actions to help prevent that from occurring as much as it does. 
We should also acknowledge that alcohol has social and commercial benefits. New Zealand’s alcohol industry employs over 70000 people and contributes to our GDP. So the Government is proposing a balanced response to deal with the considerable harm that is caused by the abuse of alcohol without unfairly affecting responsible drinkers. 
The Government’s Supplementary Order Paper 132 inserts two definitions relating to age to give effect to the House’s resolution to retain 18 years as the purchase age. I was one of those people who voted against the age of 18 as the purchase age primarily because I think it is abused most often by people aged about 16 and people aged 18 who buy alcohol for their younger friends. That was defeated and I accept obviously the will of the House. 
The technical Government Supplementary Order Paper 137 deletes the definitions of beer grape wine fruit and vegetable wine and mead proposed by Supplementary Order Paper 132. The wording in Supplementary Order Paper 132 has given rise to doubts of the applicability of a New Zealand food standard. The proposed amendment is accordingly withdrawn to make it clear that alcoholic products sold in supermarkets and grocery shops must meet the relevant New Zealand food standard. 
 I will deal with just one issue that the member who has resumed her seat Lianne Dalziel has raised and that is the issue around the hospitality industry on which she has said that the bill does not go far enough. The hospitality industry has said it does not go far enough because they support minimum pricing. That is actually really around making sure that there are maximum profits for the alcohol industry frankly. I note that there is a very recent report that I have just been handed and I am happy to table it if anyone wants me to that says that minimum pricing—which has been loudly supported by that member—which has apparently been brought in in Scotland has actually now been put on hold. And in fact I think one of the things we need to deal with is that this bill actually cannot deal with the hypotheticals; it has to deal with the realities. It is not the only bill we will ever have on alcohol reform but it is a start. It is the first time I think in living memory that we have introduced a bill to get through Parliament that actually puts more restrictions on the sale of alcohol not fewer. 
DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First) 
: 
 I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to make some preliminary comments especially about the objects of this Alcohol Reform Bill. And I would have to begin by disagreeing with the Hon Lianne Dalziel on age. I and New Zealand First believe that age is in fact a very important issue and of course we have actually done with that issue. I think age could have made a big difference to the outcome for alcohol reform in this country and it is a disappointment that we have not increased it from 18 to 20 years of age. But I do agree with the Hon Lianne Dalziel that there are some equally important issues that we must deal with in the bill. 
Overall New Zealand First supports a more restrictive approach because we think that is what the majority of people in this country want and we think that is what is required to address the real issues. In doing so the use of alcohol is unproblematic as far as the great majority of people in our community are concerned. So we must take care not to unduly interfere with their right to use alcohol responsibly and sensibly. And we must also take care not to damage businesses that are responsible in the way they do their business. I refer especially to the many wineries in this country that assist our export interests and also support a flourishing local industry. I would not like to see and New Zealand First would not like to see any measures that interfere with their doing business economically and competitively. 
We must however target the alcohol abusers of all ages and harm reduction is of course the primary objective in the bill. We must especially combat the culture of abuse which has grown and grown and grown in this country especially since the time when the purchasing age was reduced to 18 years. We must attack the problem of youth binge drinking especially. And in that respect we do not think the bill goes far enough and we will be looking therefore to support some of the Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward that we think would be useful in that respect. 
New Zealand First will however support only practical measures that are simple and easy to administer and that are understandable and fair. We will also support meaningful changes that actually make a difference to the problem of alcohol abuse and we will not be supporting purely philosophical approaches or those that we think are fundamentally grandstanding. 
New Zealand First is glad to see the provisions for territorial authority local alcohol policies. We think they can make a very significant difference to alcohol abuse and the reorganisation of alcohol in this country. We support localisation of as many issues as are appropriate and therefore we do support the part of the bill that relates to local alcohol policies as I have said. We would even support a broadening of those and we would be looking at the Supplementary Order Papers that look to do that. 
We will also support making local alcohol policies compulsory. We do not understand why it should simply be permissive and not a requirement that each and every territorial local authority in this country should be required to come up with a local alcohol policy. We are sure that every community in New Zealand would like to see that happen and so a compulsory regime we believe is appropriate. 
 We do think that local circumstances are very important when it comes to many issues relating to alcohol administration. You see in some places like Mount Maunganui Wanaka Queenstown and so on where holiday issues are very large—where people congregate in one area on particular days to abuse alcohol and for that purpose most particularly—those communities need to have local alcohol policies that specifically deal with those sorts of circumstances. We think that local authorities must take responsibility for alcohol issues in their district. It is not just a Government issue. Local authorities must get fully involved and must consult their community so that they know what their community’s expectations are. For that reason New Zealand First would support for example Supplementary Order Paper 116 and we see no reason why councils should not start work immediately on draft alcohol policies. We do not think there is anything in the bill that would make that difficult. We know that regulations still have to come but that should not get in the way of the work that needs to be made. 
In closing we would also say that local authorities will need to spend quite a time and financial resources as well on these issues. That is a concern to New Zealand First. We think it is a shame that excise and taxation issues are outside the scope of the bill because we would like to see a proposal that would divert some of the excise taxes to local councils so that they would have the resources to develop comprehensive local alcohol policies and have the funds with which to do it. 
With those comments New Zealand First looks forward to the debate. As I said we will be looking not only for a more restrictive approach but also for one that is sensible practical and will make a difference. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 I would like to begin by picking up on a comment made by the Minister of Justice in her first remarks where she mentioned the benefits associated with the alcohol industry and named specifically the jobs associated with that industry. I just want to bring the attention of the Committee to the fact that the benefits are not mentioned in the object clause of this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill. What is instead mentioned is the requirement to minimise the harm caused by excessive or inappropriate consumption of alcohol and that is indeed where my comments are focused. 
I want to come next to draw the Committee’s attention in these preliminary remarks to the fact that probably roughly 1000 New Zealanders each year lose their lives due to the consumption of alcohol—1000 per year. That is quite a few and it is certainly one of the harms that the enumerated provision here listing the types of harms covers. In addition to those 1000 deaths something like 70 percent of the presentations to emergency departments in our hospitals each weekend are from people who have been consuming alcohol. So this is a very major driver of injury in particular and indeed of illness and death in this country and I will come back to some more detail on this in later parts of the debate. 
In addition we have this very major problem with binge drinking. Others have already referred to that and I just want to enumerate some statistics about it that I have sourced from the New Zealand Drug Foundation. It states that 275000 adult New Zealanders set out to get drunk on their last drinking occasion and 450000 adults were binge drinking on their last drinking occasion. Seven hundred thousand New Zealanders have been categorised as binge-drinkers—that is consuming seven or more standard drinks per session—and 1.2 million adult drinkers are OK with binge drinking or accepting of binge drinking and regularly do so. What that says is that the harm associated with alcohol consumption in this country is of a very major league indeed. I am going to come back to the match of the Government’s response to the scale of that harm because there is a complete mismatch. 
In addition to those health-related statistics and statistics about the nature of binge drinking there is also some information available from the New Zealand Police about the association of alcohol consumption with offending. For example the police attribute to the consumption of alcohol one in four property offences one in five sexual offences one in four traffic offences one in five traffic crashes one in two drug and antisocial offences one in three family violence offences and one in three violence offences—and as an illustration of alcohol as a magnifier one in three violence offences but one in two serious violence offences. Alcohol is absolutely wrapped up in the offending and in the drivers of crime that the Hon Lianne Dalziel has referred to already in her contribution today. The police estimate that overall a third of all police-recorded offences are committed by an offender who has consumed alcohol prior to the offence and 18 percent of the police budget is wrapped up in responding to alcohol-fuelled offending. So the harm that this Alcohol Reform Bill ought to be setting out to respond to is very considerable indeed. 
I have in this House on several occasions over the last couple of years referred to the Ottawa Charter. The Ottawa Charter is an international agreement which New Zealand is party to that sets out a formula for responding to health issues in our societies and recognises that those health issues of disease injury and premature death are associated with socio-environmental factors. They are not purely problems related to the individuals who experience those issues. What the Ottawa Charter says is that if we want to address the burdens of disease and injury in our societies then we need to do a few things: we need to promote healthy public policy we need to create supportive environments we need to strengthen community responses we need to develop personal skills and we need to reorientate health services. I often speak about these five actions collapsing into two basic things: the empowerment of communities and the individuals within them and the creation of supportive environments—political environments social environments and physical environments—around those communities. That is the challenge that we ought to be responding to around alcohol. That is the challenge that this bill ought to rise to and does not. 
I have referred several times to the opportunity presented by the Law Commission’s report. It presents the Government of the day and this House with a once-in-a-generation opportunity to get alcohol policy right to strengthen our community responses to alcohol to empower communities to deal with those issues and to create supportive environments around those communities that facilitate those responses. That is what this bill ought to be doing and does not. When we come to the more detailed debate over the parts of this bill we will talk about those things. Although the Government sets out in all of the right directions the progress that the measures it proposes make in those directions is pitifully small. That is why other parties in the House—the Maori Party the Labour Party and the Green Party—have all been advancing measures that would implement the recommendations of the Law Commission and that would give this House the opportunity to take up that once-in-a-generation opportunity to seriously minimise the harm that is created in our communities by alcohol. Thank you. 
TIM MACINDOE (National—Hamilton West) 
: 
 It is very good to see this measure the Alcohol Reform Bill back before the House. Right around the country New Zealanders will be saying that they are delighted that we are debating this measure today and they look forward to seeing it being adopted as the law of this land. Can I begin by acknowledging the work of the former chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee the Hon Chester Borrows who did an outstanding job on this bill along with all the members in the previous Parliament who worked incredibly hard and I acknowledge that that includes members from all sides of the House. They heard an enormous number of submissions. They considered many more written submissions. They engaged with New Zealanders and they took their points of view on board. 
I also want to acknowledge our present Minister of Justice for her work since she has become the Minister for her determination to strengthen the bill and in particular for her determination to tackle the issue of parental supply of alcohol to minors. And when I talk about parental supply I am not talking just about parents of their own children; in particular I am talking about those who supply alcohol to other people’s children. We have sadly experienced many tragedies in this land as a result of the very irresponsible supply of alcohol to minors and I think the Minister should be commended for her courage in facing up to that issue and for providing a mechanism by which parents will at long last be able to exercise far greater control. I as a father would want to know if somebody else was supplying alcohol to my children that I had the right to say “Perhaps a little bit but only under certain conditions and certainly under strict supervision with responsible provision of food and other matters provided for.” This is a vitally important measure. 
There are over 130 positive measures in this bill. It is the first significant tightening of liquor legislation in my lifetime. The bill adopts and enacts the vast majority of the Law Commission’s recommendations for reform. Many people listening could be forgiven for thinking otherwise from what they have heard but it is worth repeating: the bill adopts the vast majority of the Law Commission’s recommendations for reform. Yes there are some who would like to see it go even further and I respect their views but I firmly reject any suggestion that the measures in this bill will not be effective or are not significant. They are and they will be. 
Part 1 of this bill which covers preliminary matters hints through its definitions at many of these very significant aspects including the provision of local alcohol plans. That is something that is warmly welcomed in my city of Hamilton and—I was listening carefully to the Hon Lianne Dalziel before—I am sure it is equally so if not more so in Christchurch where they have the additional problem now as a result of the devastation caused by the earthquakes of alcohol spreading and spreading throughout the suburbs. The need to have these local alcohol plans was highlighted in a television news feature that I saw the other night and I am sure that the citizens of Christchurch and the wider Canterbury area will particularly welcome that measure. 
The focus in the bill on the reduction of alcohol-related harm is real and very significant. A tighter definition of retail outlets that may sell alcohol is warmly welcomed in my area and I am sure around the country as are tighter rules about where alcohol may be sold within those licensed premises. Restrictions on the marketing of alcohol especially to young people are vitally important. And so it goes on. There is much in this bill that is to be welcomed individually but collectively it is of great significance and it is inconceivable that these measures will not make a difference. Therefore it is disappointing to hear some scaremongering from opponents particularly on other sides of this House. Those particular claims in many respects lack credibility when successive Governments have in fact presided over regular liberalising of our alcohol laws. This is the first Government to face up to the issues and to tighten the laws. 
Like the Minister of Justice and Mr O’Rourke who spoke earlier I too was naturally very disappointed that my Supplementary Order Paper seeking to raise the minimum purchase age for alcohol was narrowly defeated at the end of August. I make the point that a clear majority of MPs actually voted for change when the first vote was taken. I think in fact it was 71 votes to 50. So the final vote in favour of the status quo I have to say seems a bit perverse. But there it is. We must move on from that. I just want to say that I call on youth leaders— 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 The select committee that heard submissions on the Alcohol Reform Bill the Justice and Electoral Committee I think heard virtually a record number from members of the public and took time to try to listen carefully to those concerns. They were—if you set the industry submissions aside for one moment and they were numerically limited—almost overwhelmingly as far as the public were concerned in favour of going for a much stricter regime applying to the sale availability pricing and advertising of alcohol. 
It is true what a number of members including the member who has just resumed his seat Tim Macindoe have said in at least this respect: overall the bill does tighten up on those matters somewhat. But as I and a number of colleagues who sat on the select committee observed during the second reading debate on this bill and as I think Kevin Hague and Lianne Dalziel observed particularly when they made their contributions on this preliminary part of the Committee stage debate that really is not the point. The point is that we could have gone so much further on so many key issues and we failed to do so. 
The member who has just resumed his seat Mr O’Rourke and the Minister of Justice both mentioned the vote that was held in the House in late August around the purchase age. One of the problems that the debate has had has been the way in which it has proceeded first of all in dealing with the issue of age which was the subject of a conscience vote in the House and then in dealing with every other question including availability pricing advertising supply and what have you. 
All the evidence that we heard at the select committee was that if we want as a Parliament to fulfil the objects of the Act which my colleague Lianne Dalziel went into in some detail in her contribution well yes age is an issue but in the hierarchy that the experts described to us in the select committee it is not by any means the most influential or impactive criterion. The other issues—pricing availability advertising and supply—are much more influential as it happens if one wants to look at the evidence on the problem of binge drinking that we have in New Zealand than the question of the purchase age. 
For people listening to the debate and for members who might be new to that aspect of it that is the point. The point is not that I am quibbling or other colleagues with a similar view on this are quibbling that this legislation will actually result in broadly a better regime; it will and that is down to the careful work I think done by the select committee. I would join with the member who has resumed his seat in praising those members of the Justice and Electoral Committee who took the time to hear the submissions and to make the recommendations that were made and that appear in the report back that we are considering. I also thank the officials for the help that they gave us to try to negotiate our way around some of those issues and to try to make the best possible recommendations that we could in order to bring good legislation back to the House. It is better than what we have got but the gap between what we could have and what we are going to end up with if members opposite simply take the Government whip as has been indicated they will is profound. 
What I would like to say in my initial contribution in the debate is this: the evidence demands that we take much more seriously some of the Supplementary Order Papers that are on the Table and my plea if I can make one to National members is that they do think very carefully about these Supplementary Order Papers. They have been put together I think by and large with a lot of care and a lot of thought and with a desire to actually achieve the objects and purposes of the Act. That is why I want to mention one or two of them now. I am not going to go into any detail about them but I think if we are serious about minimising the harm that comes from our binge-drinking culture then we do need to think about some of these ideas. 
In respect of the idea for example of lowering the permitted blood-alcohol content there will be a discussion about the scope of it and my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway has Supplementary Order Paper 40. There is no doubt that if we were to seriously consider that we would certainly begin to deal with the sorts of harm-related issues that Kevin Hague mentioned in his contribution—the 1000 alcohol-related deaths. 
If we were for example when we are dealing with local planning issues to give boards of trustees automatic standing to make submissions about whether or not licensing decisions should be made given the evidence that we heard at the select committee about the harm that flows from locating licensed premises near or on the way to schools again we would do a lot to achieve in a much better manner than with the bill as it currently stands the objects and purposes of the Act. 
There has been mention already in this initial debate about local alcohol policies and they have been praised even by the Government member who spoke earlier. Well the problem with them is that they are optional so a local government entity does not have to have a local alcohol policy. When it does decide to have one it is going to take many many many months in order to be able to bring that local alcohol policy into effect—16 months I think is the figure that is given—and when they are chosen to be brought into effect by a particular territorial local authority they are very restricted as to the matters that they can deal with. They are very very restricted on the face of the Act to the types of matters they can deal with. 
If we were serious about the object and purpose here we would allow them to be much wider than they are. There are two Supplementary Order Papers before us one in my name Supplementary Order Paper 109 which would provide for them to be required by a territorial local authority and one in the name of my colleague Phil Twyford Supplementary Order Paper 116 which would circumvent the time that it will take to bring those local alcohol policies into place as far as the local authorities are concerned. They are both very good measures as far as trying to achieve the objects and purpose of the legislation are concerned. 
In the same vein my colleague Lianne Dalziel as is well known and as the Minister mentioned in her contribution has a Supplementary Order Paper Supplementary Order Paper 113 that would bring in or at least empower the Minister to bring in if she so chose a minimum pricing regime. It is entirely at the Minister’s discretion as to how that is designed. It need not be all doom and gloom in raising prices across the board. It could be a judicious measure if it were designed well. When the Minister was on her feet she told us that she had a report purporting to indicate that the Scots who as we know have put in place a minimum pricing regime have suspended that regime. 
Well we can all produce evidence about minimum pricing regimes. Only 2 weeks ago in Australia there was a report very strongly advocating that the only way in which Australia would be able to deal with its binge-drinking culture in a meaningful fashion would be amongst other things to bring in a minimum pricing regime for alcohol. The evidence is by no means overwhelming in the way that the Minister would have us believe. 
There are some other very good Supplementary Order Papers that would certainly permit the objects and purposes of the Act to be better achieved. Andrew Little has proposed one that would restrict opening hours. Iain Lees-Galloway has another one that would restrict the advertising and sponsorship regime one of the biggest obvious failures that the bill would make if it is enacted in its present form. There is one in the name of David Clark that would restrict advertising that is specifically targeted at young people. My colleague Phil Goff has a very very good one that would make restrictions on the availability of ready-to-drinks. 
 Again we know from the Justice and Electoral Committee evidence that ready-to-drinks are sweet they are sugary and they are ready-made—ready prepared. If members mean what they say and what they have said in the Chamber already about trying to promote responsible drinking amongst young people this is something that obviously according to the evidence ought to be dealt with again in respect of achieving the objects and purposes of the legislation. That is a Supplementary Order Paper that the Committee must consider seriously and independently and any member who does not have a good look at that and think about their vote on it cannot be taken seriously about a desire to promote responsible drinking amongst young people. 
David Clark has a Supplementary Order Paper that would remove the excise tax on low-alcohol products therefore promoting them again via a sensible price mechanism making them more attractive so that rather than looking at hard liquor options people are encouraged to look at softer ones. I mentioned I think the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of Phil Twyford on fast tracking the local alcohol policy options but there are other good ones as well. I think Kevin Hague has a number that are well worth having a close look at. 
As I said earlier on this is not about whether or not this is not an adequate bill; it is. It does make some progress. As I have said the various players deserve credit for that but the point is it could be so much better. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 Kia ora tatou katoa i tenei ahiahi. By way of some introductory remarks I want to state from the outset that the Maori Party believes that we must really focus on the long-term outlook the intergenerational shift that will ensure that we reduce alcohol-related harm right across the whanau. We advocated for significant investment in the sector targeted at alcohol treatment services and were pleased that the Government moved in this way with a $10 million announcement in the Budget. We also support the proposal for a cross-agency advertising and sponsorship review as recommended by the Law Commission. We are particularly supportive of the Law Commission’s advice that alcohol advertising and sponsorship could be addressed by limiting product information to a plain pack format which is basically what Tariana Turia has done in respect of tobacco prevention. 
We can say from the start as well that we are however disappointed that local alcohol plans remain voluntary. The liberalisation of alcohol sales—opening up supermarket sales extending opening hours reducing the minimum purchase age to 18 and the increased number and density of outlets—have all compounded the serious problem that other members in the Chamber have talked about not only in this debate but also in the first debate in respect of the purchase age. A comparison made by Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu to the regime of environmental management is particularly helpful I think. It was their contention that the rights protected under article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi include the capacity to protect and preserve the well-being of our greatest taonga our people and accordingly it was their view that iwi have the right to be decision makers on the supply and regulation of alcohol within their respective ancestral lands. The proposal to enable iwi input into local decision-making will be proposed as one of the key amendments under my name to the clauses on local alcohol policy. 
The Maori Party describes alcohol as a social hazard and argues for measures against hazardous alcohol intake across all layers of influence. It would be no secret—or maybe it is—that Maori have one of the few societies where the history prior to the arrival of the settler group was free of alcohol. Indeed a term that our people use for alcohol is “waipiro”. “Waipiro” literally means “stinking water”. From that time to now there has obviously been a clear impact on Maori communities across the board and from the Maori Party’s perspective we take this particular issue along with tobacco and indeed gambling under the banner if you like of social hazards that we definitely need to have a look at. In that regard as previous members have mentioned under my name we have tabled a number of amendments which the Committee will consider over the length and breadth of this debate. These include making the proximity to a school a criterion for determining liquor licences; adding Maori representation to the local committees; limiting the visibility of advertising for the product in grocery stores and grocery shops so that it is not visible in the store but alcohol is able to be sold; eliminating advertising and sponsorship of alcohol except inside on-licenced premises; and a sinking-lid policy on off-licence retailers within territorial authorities in terms of talking about the replacement of existing stores being the only exception and only if there is not another liquor store within 5 kilometres. There are other amendments that I will not discuss right now but will come back to during the debate. 
I did want to say that the bigger picture on alcohol harm is that it is not just what we drink it is how and whom we drink with. It takes a community. One of the recommendations that came up from  
He Tete Kura: Maori Addiction Treatment 1980-2008 
 tells us that there are three specific aspects to how we can work together to reduce and prevent alcohol-related harm. I will just mention those to close off. No. 1 is to build strengthen and maintain links between whanau hapu and iwi communities and the sector around the country. Secondly we need to explicitly foster a collective whanau approach in the Maori addiction treatment sector and workforce. Thirdly we need to work more as a unified and collective sector to achieve whanau ora for Maori with addiction-related issues and problems. We would hope that all of these things do come together as we complete this debate over the next day or so. Certainly we in the Maori Party believe that the Supplementary Order Papers that we are advancing have some merit to them as do a number— 
Hon PHIL GOFF (Labour—Mt Roskill) 
: 
 This has been described by various speakers as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to deal with one of the biggest social problems that we confront in 21st century New Zealand. I am not a wowser; I drink but I am equally conscious as a New Zealander of the cost of alcohol abuse and misuse to our whole society—the economic cost the social cost and the individual human cost—and that is the reason why the last Labour Government set up the Law Commission to do a full inquiry into alcohol abuse in this country. It seemed a sensible thing to do to take it out of the political arena to give it to a group of experts who consulted widely across New Zealand society—over 3000 submissions were received by the Law Commission—and to take what they themselves described as an evidence-based approach. What other approach makes sense than to look at the evidence—to look at it objectively openly honestly and transparently—and then act on the evidence? That is why I believe that the Alcohol Reform Bill is a disappointment. 
There are some things that it does and I applaud the careful steps that it takes in that regard but most of the things that it does actually date back to the time when Lianne Dalziel was Associate Minister of Justice and talked about the need for local alcohol policies and for giving local communities the ability to control the supply of alcohol in those areas. I heard a very frustrated mayor on the radio the other day in Auckland saying that we needed these policies 2 years ago. We did need them 2 years ago and we could have had them 2 years ago but the Government sat on this bill then acted very cautiously and rejected the main recommendations of the Law Commission. The main recommendations of the Law Commission included the raising of the age of consumption to 20. I voted for that because I believe that we have a huge problem with teenage binge drinking. The Committee in its wisdom decided not to do that. Well if we are not going to do that then the Committee has to consider what in some of the Supplementary Order Papers will have an impact on binge drinking. 
I want to express my disappointment again that the Minister of Justice met with the liquor industry interests—the vested interests that make hundreds of millions of dollars out of this area. Yes of course they produce jobs but that should not prevent us from saying that we have an obligation in this House to pass legislation that will moderate the impact of abuse. One of the things that Simon Power the previous Minister of Justice was adamant that the Government should do was to limit the alcohol content of the ready-to-drinks the alcopops to 5 percent which is pretty much the same as beer. I saw the comments that Simon Power made and I agree with those. These drinks appeal particularly to our young people. They are the preferred drink of 63 percent of female school-age drinkers and have had the biggest single impact on raising the level of alcohol consumption in this country. Spirits soared because of the introduction of ready-to-drinks. Ready-to-drinks were designed to taste so sweet that you could not taste the alcohol to appeal to young people. They were to be marketed like soft drinks and to be drunk like soft drinks. Selling half a million containers of alcopops a day has resulted in an enormous increase in alcohol consumption. 
It is easy to deal with Minister and that is by restricting the level of alcohol to 5 percent for companies that have moved the alcohol level of ready-to-drinks up quite significantly. Many are now selling at 8 percent some as high as 10 percent. What I want is for this Committee to look even at this late stage at an evidence-based approach and for Government members of Parliament to have the right to vote according to the evidence and not to be whipped into line and agree to everything they have been told by the Minister to do to protect the liquor industry. I urge National members of Parliament to vote according to the evidence and to their own views. I have done a bit of research and I have seen what National members of Parliament have said including the Minister’s own predecessor about ready-to-drinks and the need to restrict the alcohol content. So I urge the Government to allow the freedom to its own members to vote according to what they believe is right. The MPs whom I have talked to—and I do not name them because it was in confidence—from the other side of the House have expressed concern about that and have expressed concern that the liquor industry might be paramount over health and policing people on the front line. 
I want to bring it back to what the cost of alcohol is and why we need to act. I took time out to go down to an accident and emergency department in this case at Auckland City Hospital to spend the early hours of Sunday morning there to witness what the staff of those hospitals have to deal with daily. I do not know Minister whether you have had that experience but I would certainly recommend it to you. Ministers from the Government and the Prime Minister were invited to do so. I was appalled at the sheer number of people coming in injured because of alcohol ill to the point of endangering their health because of alcohol and often abusive of the staff in the hospital. You have only to spend time with the doctors who are working there through the small hours of the morning absolutely frustrated that they are spending their time working on people who have abused alcohol rather than doing the work they want to do to improve the overall health of the community. 
Imagine the bonus to New Zealand if we were able to cut down the abuse of alcohol and cut down the $5 billion in costs that the Alcohol Advisory Council says that the abuse of alcohol is causing each year—$5 billion. Instead of slashing social services instead of cutting back the sorts of services that New Zealand wants if we could bring down alcohol abuse we could do something about it. But this bill is a wasted opportunity because it does not tackle basic things that the Law Commission said it should tackle—for example price and advertising. Why do we allow alcohol to be promoted? Why do we allow ready-to-drinks to be sold with higher and higher levels of alcohol in what the industry is producing rather than dealing with it? Let us have the courage in this House to do what is right and not surrender to pressure from the industry. This House is obliged to act for the benefit of New Zealanders not for the benefit of those people who make money out of promoting alcohol to younger and younger people all the time. We need to do something about that. 
Can I say that there is another Supplementary Order Paper Supplementary Order Paper 40 in the name of my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway on the level of alcohol that can be consumed before you are driving unlawfully. I have got the Cabinet paper in my hand that tells us what the Government was advised on this. It says that lowering the adult limit is arguably the most cost-effective way we have got of improving road safety. That is the advice given to Cabinet and I want to ask the Minister why the Government has ignored that advice and said that we need more research. We have got all the research we need. At 0.05 grams your driving starts to become impaired. At 0.08 you are three times more likely to have an accident. I say the Committee should exercise its independent judgment. Look at the evidence. If we are worried about the hundreds of people who are dying and being maimed on the road each year because of too much alcohol in their blood then let us act in this House because we can make a difference. 
It would be remiss of the House to simply go down the path of caution and say “Great this bill doesn’t liberalise alcohol.” No it does not but nor does it address the critical problems that are causing billions of dollars to be spent in health and in policing in this country. I want to say to those who said “It’s a minor problem. Let’s not hurt the majority because it’s a minor problem.” that there are 444000 people who in one of the recent surveys that were done said they felt drunk when they were driving—nearly half a million New Zealanders. One in three violent offences is alcohol related. One in three domestic violence offences is alcohol related. The Minister in the chair is the Minister of Justice. These things must be deeply troubling to her. She was the Minister of Police. 
We have to do something more than say “Let’s not offend the liquor industry. Let’s not offend those who are making money out of promoting a good that is legally saleable but actually isn’t an ordinary commodity.” 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: No one’s saying that. Silly thing to say. 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: It is not a silly thing to say; it is absolutely true and Mr Williamson ought to consider what the cost is. You know we heard it from Kevin Hague not so long ago—275000 New Zealanders set out when they went drinking on their last occasion to get drunk. That is a serious problem. 
Dr JACKIE BLUE (National) 
: 
 I am pleased to be speaking to Part 1 in the Committee stage on preliminary matters. This is the biggest reform since Prohibition. I congratulate the Government on bringing this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill to the House today. It is in response to the Law Commission report and there have been over 130 positive changes as a result. I would also like to take the opportunity to congratulate the previous Justice and Electoral Committee which heard over 1500 submissions on this very topic and the chair Chester Borrows. I would like to congratulate the Minister of Justice Judith Collins on her work and the officials. There has been a huge amount of work that has gone on behind the scenes. 
It is a balanced approach and let us face it you are never going to please everyone. But I am particularly pleased about some aspects of this bill which if time permits I will talk to. Local alcohol plans—absolutely the community wants those. It wants to be able to make those decisions on where alcohol outlets should be. Alcohol displays in supermarkets and grocery stores—that one particularly incenses me. My local supermarket changed the layout and made shoppers go down the alcohol aisle. You could not go left you could not go right. You had no option but to go through the alcohol and that infuriated me. I am also pleased to see parental tools are available. I have a 16-year-old daughter. I would be outraged if she went to another home and she was offered alcohol without my knowing or having my express wish. I am particularly pleased about that. 
But I really want to just take some time and actually focus on the cross-sectoral approach that the Government is taking to alcohol. You cannot do it with just one piece of legislation; I think we all have to agree on that. But in health there are some very exciting initiatives with regard to alcohol harm. We know there are about 700000 heavy drinkers out there in New Zealand. Most of them probably do it through a lack of education or they might be in denial. But there are two tools. One is the Whanganui alcohol screening pilot that is under way. It is very exciting. That is showing some good results where people are screened on alcohol—on how much they are drinking when and where what types—and if they are registered as high risk interventions are offered to them. That is rolling out very nicely. 
But there is another exciting tool which I am particularly happy with and I am very excited about and that is called eCHAT. It has happened in two general practitioners’ practices in Auckland. It is going to be rolled out to 30 more including Tamaki College next year—no; it is actually currently happening—where everyone in the waiting area is given an iPad or a tablet and they are given nine fields of questions to answer. It is very quick. It covers alcohol it covers recreational drugs it covers violence it covers depression it covers exercise and it covers a couple of other areas. It has been well researched. It has been looked at and the questions have been fine-tuned. It basically again links into the patient record. Again if the person registers as high risk in any particular category they go on and answer more questions and the general practitioner can offer them some screening and some intervention tools. I think that is particularly exciting particularly because people often do not realise the harm they are doing. Some of it is through lack of education and maybe it is just pointing out: “Look you need to look at what you’re drinking and how much you’re drinking.” I am really pleased by that. 
The emergency department of Wellington Regional Hospital has been screening people who appear at accident and emergency with an alcohol-related event. They are contacted a few days later by their community alcohol and drug service. Most of those people do not want to know about it and that is fine but there will be people who want to know and realise maybe in that reflective stage of their drinking that yes they have got a bit of a problem and it is time to address it. Those are measures I am particularly pleased about. 
In the Minister’s other portfolio ACC they are doing huge work in reduction of alcohol harm. I was on to ACC the other night—I had to phone about a constituent—and I got this recorded message while I was waiting to be answered: “Don’t forget to serve non-alcoholic drinks and serve food at your party.” I was staggered and it made me realise how much ACC is doing to reduce harm from alcohol particularly in the workplace. There is also transport. The Safer Journeys initiative has actually really targeted youth and alcohol drinking and harm. In corrections it is fabulous. Alcohol and drug treatment beds have opened up for prisoners and all prisoners have access to those. It has been life changing. I went to Paremoremo prison and I spoke to staff at the unit and it has been absolutely life changing for prisoners who have taken up that option of having alcohol and drug treatment. Basically alcohol had fuelled their lives and their lives had been brought into crisis. Thank you. 
Hon Members 
: Mr Chair. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Iain Lees-Galloway has been trying for a while. I will give him the call. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I would like to pick up from where Dr Jackie Blue left off. Her point was that we cannot address the harm caused by alcohol just through legislation; we have to do it through other measures as well. Nobody in this Committee would disagree with Dr Blue on that I think. 
There has to be a range of responses to the harm caused by alcohol. But one of the responses is through legislation and this is an opportunity that is going begging. It is not what is in the Alcohol Reform Bill. Tim Macindoe spoke about the fact that a large number of the Law Commission’s recommendations are in the bill. They are and they are good and I will certainly be voting in support of the bill. It is a step in the right direction. But by no measure can it be called a reform bill. 
It is not a reform of our alcohol laws in New Zealand; it is a very very timid turn away from liberalisation. We have had decades of continued liberalisation. Yes this is a step away from that but a very timid and a very small step away from that continued liberalisation. And it is a real disappointment to all the people who have been lobbying who have been working so hard in this field who made submissions to the Law Commission who made submissions to the Justice and Electoral Committee who have lobbied individual MPs and who have presented us with the evidence—it is a huge disappointment to those people—that this Government has brought an alcohol bill that is nothing more than a timid slowing down of the decades of liberalisation that we have seen. 
Why do we need real reform of our alcohol laws? Well  
The Economist 
 produced a table a drug harm index and it showed the relative harm of different substances that people take recreationally: alcohol heroin cocaine methamphetamine tobacco cannabis GHB butane all the way down to magic mushrooms. Right at the top of that list for harm caused not only to the individual who consumes the substance but to the wider community is alcohol. And it is not ever so slightly at the top of the list; it is way out in front—way way out in front—of all those other substances. That does not mean it is not possible for alcohol to be consumed sensibly and safely. Thousands and millions of New Zealanders do that and we should not curtail their ability to do it. 
The Minister said this is about striking a balance. Yes we have to strike a balance. Some countries dabbled with prohibition almost a century ago— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: How did that go? 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY 
: —and that was an abject failure. It was Mr Williamson an absolute failure and we would not want to go there. We have to get the balance right but the balance in this legislation is tipped too far towards the alcohol industry and those who are too nervous to really take on genuine alcohol reform. A better balance needs to be struck and that is still possible. It is still possible. I know that National Party members will be under the whip and at this stage are not planning to vote for the measures that are going to be proposed that will truly strengthen this bill but I urge those members to continue even at this late stage their discussion with their leadership and I urge all other parties in the Chamber to support those amendments that will genuinely strengthen this bill and make it a true reform bill. 
I heard as I was travelling to the House today Kevin Hague talking about the Ottawa Charter and how that establishes the environment for good public health. That is what a lot of these amendments are focused on today. It is not about trying to clean up the mess after people develop an addiction to alcohol or overuse or abuse alcohol but actually trying to create the right settings and the right environment in which the right attitude towards alcohol is developed. And we can do some of that through legislation—not all of it but we can do some of it through legislation. We have the evidence that tells us what are the right things to do: restricting the availability restricting the advertising increasing the price and lowering the legal alcohol limit for driving. All of those things are meaningful and have an evidence base behind them and will actually do something about the issues we have with alcohol in this country. We have the opportunity to do much much more than we are doing in this legislation at the moment. 
I would like to just touch on something. I will come back to it at the appropriate time but because Jackie Blue raised it in her previous submission I would like to raise it now. That is the aspect of the Minister’s Supplementary Order Paper 132 that deals with alcohol areas in supermarkets. I am not convinced that it is quite all that it is cracked up to be and I think we need a more thorough examination of it. My concern is that there is a loophole in the way it has been worded that will allow the alcohol section in supermarkets to be right next to the entrance so it is something that everybody has to walk past. They may not have to walk through it but they may have to walk past it. If that is an incorrect interpretation then I would be very pleased for the Minister to clarify that so that we know what we are voting for. I certainly will not be voting for that aspect of the Minister’s Supplementary Order Paper until we have that clarification. If that is the case I will gladly support it but if it is not the case then I think we need to take a closer look at it. 
I certainly will be speaking in support of and voting for those amendments proposed by my colleagues in the Labour Party and by the Green Party and some of the amendments proposed by the Maori Party that get the balance right. The Minister is absolutely correct: this is about striking a balance. But the balance is in the wrong place right now and we have some work in the coming hours and days to get the balance right. 
Hon Members 
: Mr Chair. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Did you call? 
Hon David Parker 
: I did Mr Chairman. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I call the Hon David Parker. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 Thank you Mr Chairman. I rise to take a call on the preliminary part of this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill. As other speakers have said there does not really seem to be much dispute that in New Zealand we currently have a worse problem with the abuse of alcohol than we did before liberalisation of alcohol sales laws in the 1980s and that therefore there is a need to redress that balance and introduce some more restrictions around the sale of alcohol in an effort to reduce the harm that is done in society from the abuse of alcohol. Most people in this Chamber drink alcohol from time to time and most people in this Chamber do not abuse alcohol but it is true that too many people in New Zealand do abuse alcohol to the detriment of themselves and their families and at considerable cost to the taxpayer. 
 One thing I would want to raise with the Minister in the chair the Minister of Justice at the moment is that the proposal in the legislation to change the default closing time to 4 a.m. for licensed premises still seems to me to be overly permissive. I think that the cost caused to our tax system as well as the harm done to our population by those late closing hours is in need of further remedy. I think that Mr Flavell’s amendment in that regard is probably quite a good step. He says that the closing hour should be 3 a.m. and that between 1 a.m. and 3 a.m. there should be a one-way policy so that if you go into a licensed premise and you leave it you cannot hop into another one after 1 in the morning. I am struck by a statement that was made to me probably about 3 or 4 years ago by the then head of police in Queenstown who said that the cost of policing is effectively driven to quite a significant extent by the closing hour of licensed premises. Rosters need to be maintained and cars need to be kept on the road until the licensed premises close and if those licensed premises close earlier then they do not have to keep those rosters going as long. 
I think that is pretty clear. It is not that long ago that we had 10 o’clock closing then 11 p.m. closing on Fridays and Saturdays—I think that is where it was extended to first. Since then we have effectively had open slather with very very late licensing hours including in premises that border on residential areas which causes a nuisance to those around them. So one of the things I would like to see passed as we go through this debate is the Flavell amendment in that regard. There are other aspects of his amendments I disagree with. I do not think it is practical to limit off-licences to only one within every 5 kilometres of each other. That would effectively mean that in a place like Wellington there might be one or two off-licence premises in the whole of Wellington central which would just be I think wrong. In respect of small towns it would effectively mean there would be one monopoly provider. So I do not agree with that but I do agree that we need to truncate the hours of these licensed premises. 
I am personally disappointed that in respect of the debate we had on the age we did not move on the age for off-licence premises. I think that has been a mistake this Parliament may rue. There is no doubt that the scientists tell us that the younger a person is when they start drinking the more likely it is that they develop an alcohol problem long term. In addition to their greater likelihood of developing an alcohol problem we also know that whatever damage is done through drinking it is more long term for a younger person because of the stage of development of their brain. Again there is good scientific evidence to show that the damage that is done to a young person’s brain before that brain completely matures is greater than the damage to the brain of an older person who has had the same level of alcohol consumption. So I think that for both of those reasons it would have been appropriate to increase the age for off-licences. There is indeed an argument that we should have done it for on-licences as well but the argument in respect of on-licences is not quite as strong in that there are at least in theory meant to be controls relating to serving intoxicated people that make it less likely that there will be harm to those people on licensed premises. 
I think that whatever happens with this legislation I would like to see the Government putting more focus on enforcement of the law. I live in the very heart of Dunedin in the central area and I can tell you that at 3 or 4 a.m. most— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I thought you were from Remuera. 
Hon DAVID PARKER 
: I have got a foot in more than one camp Mr Williamson but none of them is in Remuera. I do know that the state of people when they come out of those premises at 3 or 4 in the morning is such that it is impossible that they were not being served when they were absolutely totalled when they were in these licensed premises. I would like to see more Government resources be put into closing down some of those irresponsible licensed premises. I think the courts are ready to take a hard line and to close down some of these places and make them lose their licences for a month or 6 months on a graduated scale. Some of those businesses would go to the wall and they deserve to do so if they act irresponsibly and breach the laws that this Parliament passes and that society wants us to uphold. 
I would also speak in support of a couple of other amendments. I agree with Jackie Blue in respect of the amendment relating to the non-sale supply to young people. This is an issue on which I have had a lot of discussions with Lianne Dalziel through the years and we both thought it was important for it to be in the original bills that were discharged some 3 or 4 years ago. It is a nonsense that it is illegal to sell liquor to a person who is a minor while under current law there are very few restrictions on the non-sale supply to a young person even if that supply is without parental consent even if it is for hideous amounts of strong spirits and even if they are in a car. There are so many gaps in the existing law relating to non-sale supply to minors that it is no wonder that the police cannot effectively enforce the current law such as it is. So I am pleased that the non-sale supply to minors is going to be significantly tightened so that it can be legal only if there is parental consent and there is then a responsible level in terms of the provision of alcohol. It will take some of the pressure off parents around some of these pre-ball and post-ball parties where parents are put under pressure because they are told by Johnny that everyone else is doing it and therefore they have to do the same thing. So I think that is a good step in the right direction but I would note that it could have been done 3 years earlier if the earlier bill had not been discharged. 
I also agree with local liquor plans. I think that local authorities should be able to control how many off-licences or on-licences they have in areas. I think local people have a right in a democratic society to exercise some control of that. I would also speak in favour of the measure in respect of the liquor-laden soft drinks the ready-to-drink soft drinks that have become so pervasive. Some of the richest people in New Zealand have made their fortunes on the back of the misery caused by ready-to-drinks and we ought not to shrink from concluding that those ready-to-drinks really are marketed in a way that is meant to disguise the taste of alcohol—they are soft drinks essentially. Phil Goff’s amendment to limit the concentration of alcohol in those drinks and the size and number of standard drinks that can be in a ready-to-drink is I think worthy of the support of this Parliament. The misery that flows particularly for the younger people who are most attracted to these ready-to-drinks is something that can be remedied by this Parliament if we vote in support of that amendment. 
As others have said this bill does not go as far as it needs to in order to remedy some of the harm. I intend to support the bill notwithstanding those failures because it does go further than the existing law and I think that for me probably the most significant thing in this bill is improving local control over the number of outlets and the non-sale supply of alcohol to minors. 
Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I rise to speak in favour of the Alcohol Reform Bill broadly and of Part 1. Part 1 contains the objects as we all know. I do feel overall that the Government is wasting a once-in-a-generation opportunity to put through more pervasive legislation that would address the issues at the heart of the problem that our society has. However overall I want to signal from the beginning that I will support the legislation because it takes some steps in the right direction. 
I had the privilege in my previous role as head of a university college to be on the vice-chancellor’s alcohol advisory task force at Otago. That experience confirmed for me a number of things that I already understood about alcohol culture primarily through access to alcohol experts in the field. Primary health experts in New Zealand are pretty much of one mind on this stuff. It is not like the “100% pure” matter where Mr Key can say: “You find one expert who says we’re no longer 100 percent pure and I’ll find you another one who says we are.” Perhaps that is not a good example as I do not think that is a fair case either. 
In this area in primary health people are of one mind. The research is really clear that alcohol-related harm can best be curbed through the use of mechanisms like pricing marketing distribution and supply. There is no wavering on this. It is not that there is debate around what the best measures are for curbing alcohol-related harm—there is really clear evidence. So I would challenge those members opposite who have not yet sat down with experts in this area to do so because they are more than willing to share their learnings. The primary health experts in this country are very generous with what they have learnt as a result of their studies and they are keen to see change for the betterment of New Zealand society. This is one area where our universities do take a strong role in being critic and conscience. 
Dunedin North the electorate that I represent is an electorate that wrestles with alcohol issues in respect of the student population in particular. I would argue that those alcohol-related issues are no better nor any worse than previous generations. Much media centres on the general concept that the world is going to hell in a handbasket in that respect. I do not buy into that. I think that different generations have treated alcohol in a similar way. This is an intergenerational issue that we are dealing with here. There is some evidence that fewer people are drinking heavily and those who are are now drinking more heavily but overall the picture is very similar to what it was a generation ago. 
We now know though a little more about alcohol-related harm than we did a generation ago and that is why it is imperative that we act now in a way that was not clear to us a generation ago. Who knows if in my day society’s leaders had acted to curb alcohol-related harm when I was a student whether we would not have solved the problem of world peace by now. Anything is possible. It is certainly the case that generations up until now have had their development impaired in one form or another through the use of alcohol. 
We now know through the use of magnetic resource imaging scanners that adolescence stretches from 13 to 23 and that frontal lobe development which happens towards the end of that period is at its peak between the ages of 18 and 21 when students are undertaking studies—undergraduate studies in particular at university—and that is when they are developing their critical faculties the powers of rational thought and laying out an argument. 
Those processes are being hardwired into the frontal lobe at that point in their development. But that frontal lobe we also know is responsible for addictions. It is the centre in the human body for addictions. So at the same time as those students are studying by day to improve their rational thought processes many of them are out drinking and creating a lifetime of addiction for themselves. 
This is not knowledge that was as immediately clear to us a generation ago but it is now much much more evident through advances in science. So it is imperative upon us as those who have inherited this science that we speak out about it and make the case for change. 
We also know that education does not make a great impact in respect of addictions and in respect certainly of student behaviour. Students drink because it is a risky practice; that is why they drink heavily. They choose to drink heavily because it is a risky practice. Telling students that drinking is a risky practice simply reinforces the reasons why they want to do it. In fact it increases the incentive and encourages the behaviour. There are studies across the States that demonstrate the way in which education programmes have led to absolutely no change in trends of behaviour in respect of teenage risk-taking. 
I am disappointed personally at the way in which the Government has succeeded in framing the alcohol issue as an age issue overall. Personally that is one of the greatest disappointments to me in respect of this legislation. Opposition parties I guess must question themselves—particularly those who feel in conscience educated about this issue and want to speak out about it—about how they have not done better at countering that particular framing. When people think this is an age issue they forget to ask the wider questions about how we make that societal change and lump the burden of responsibility back on that younger age group or at least the interest in the debate back on that younger age group and who is in and who is out of the drinking. We know as I have said earlier that pricing marketing distribution and supply are well above age in terms of influence and in terms of people’s drinking patterns. I will put forward two Supplementary Order Papers in my name later in the debate in respect of price and marketing. 
I do compliment the Government on some of the changes it is making in respect of distribution. I know that local councils are grateful that some changes are being made in that area. It is certainly the case that in Dunedin there are examples of local liquor suppliers setting up business in the middle of town and the council having no redress. Although the public were against those outlets setting up wholesale outlets where there are already plenty around the council was without powers to change it. That will change as I understand it if the Government’s legislation succeeds so I want to compliment the Government on that change. 
Some of the changes that are being made are positive. However overall I feel that this is a real missed opportunity. I am also disappointed that National members are choosing not to exercise their consciences on this issue. I think that conscience like all human faculties is a use it or lose it thing and it is no different in this respect. I think Government members should choose to exercise their conscience on this issue. 
So overall there is an amount of tinkering here. The changes that could be made are not going to be made but some of those that are worthy of our support will mean that I personally will offer my support to the overall legislation albeit with some disappointment that some of the bigger levers are being put to one side in favour of what I see as expediency. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I think I will start where my colleague David Clark has left off and say that this Alcohol Reform Bill does not put before the Committee in a way that I would have hoped a number of choices for the Committee. I do regret the fact that National has decided to hide behind its whips on this particular issue but I think that when it does come to the election campaign people will be asked how they voted on the issues that come up here and the fact that it was a whipped vote on what has often been a conscience area will not be a protection for those members. 
Having said that and regretted the fact that we have not really got an opportunity to debate and make decisions as a Parliament on this occasion as we have on every other occasion where we have debated this legislation I have to say that there are a lot of areas that I disagree with. The last two of my colleagues who have just spoken David Clark and David Parker have considered the issues over time looked at some of the evidence and come to different conclusions. 
I would agree that academics for example should play a positive role in informing the debate on liquor legislation and that they should be the critics and the conscience. But the problem I have especially with the leading academics in this particular area the most quoted academics in this particular area is that they are zealots. I do not think the evidence matters to them and— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Some of them are practitioners. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Some of them are practitioners but the people whom I am talking about especially a couple of individuals from the member’s own city have in fact been shown to twist the evidence in reaching their conclusions. And if anyone has any doubt about that can I recommend—[ 
Interruption 
] No take a call and debate it. Can I recommend that they look at the work of Ruth Laugesen when she did some work that looked into that area. The name of course is not one that is unknown in the public health area and she is certainly a journalist with a good reputation for analysis. 
When people looked at allegations of fact and opinion what was found was that the evidence that is being presented to the public is not always backed up by the research. I will say also that that was my experience as a member of the select committee when dealing with the Rugby World Cup and the shifts that the people I have described as zealots in the area of alcohol law reform wanted to make as part of that exercise and that actually their arguments did not stack up. 
 I want to disagree with my colleague about trends in alcohol use. I do not think there are many people left in the Chamber who can remember seeing—though in my case not being part of—evidence of the six o’clock swill. That was outrageous. The type of drinking that we saw at that time far exceeds—far exceeds—the behaviour that occurs now. It occurred with just about everyone who was in hotels at the time—and there were many more hotels at the time—and people were much more likely to drive after that occurred. I will get back to that. 
The other trend was just the practice as to the type—[ 
Interruption 
] They might have been slower cars but we did have cars and they were not like Fred Flintstone’s either. People used to drink off premises using flagons. That was the standard measure. I can remember people who thought it was progress when we shifted from flagons to crates as being the standard measure. So for people to argue that there has been a massive decline in the approach to drinking is in my opinion incorrect. 
I disagree with the comments that David Parker made and also with the proposals in the bill with regard to closing hours. I have worked on occasions as a shift worker—different sorts of shifts. There was one shift where we worked week-on week-off and we finished up at 8 o’clock on a Friday morning and we used to go to the pub. But there was another job where I worked a 4-to-midnight shift; therefore our work day and our work week finished at midnight. The idea that we could not go off to the pub then—we worked different hours we slept different hours. I think one of the good things that has happened is that that has been recognised in the ability of shift workers to socialise. 
I do agree with my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway and his amendment with regard to drink-driving. I think there has been a major cultural change in that area in New Zealand in my lifetime. I think it is no secret that many people of my generation especially but not only those who lived in rural areas used to regularly drive way over the limit. We had mickey mouse testing systems and a lack of policing—and in fact in some cases police actively ignoring the law because they themselves used to be involved in the drink-driving. But I think times have changed and that is a good thing. We are now ready I think for a change from a blood-alcohol level of 80 milligrams back to 50. 
I want to make a comment to the amendment that is proposed by my friend the Hon Phil Goff to do with ready-to-drinks and to say that I disagree with him. I will give an example for myself from last Thursday night. I went to an event at the Civic Theatre and I wanted to have a rum and Coke. I could have had the same alcohol concentration poured out of a bottle and mixed with Coke or I could have bought it in a little bottle as a ready-to-drink. Why is it that you should be allowed it if it comes in a glass or in a bit of plastic but not be allowed it if it is the same mixture in a bottle? My view is that there is a degree of overreaction to a format that is more popular with younger people. People go on about drinks being sweet. Well I happen to like dessert wines and I do not mind rum and Coke myself either. They are sweet drinks and because they are not fashionable with some generations and more fashionable with others that might need to be considered when we are looking at this. 
There is one other issue for me that I still want to hear evidence on and listen to. I know we have at least two sets of amendments around minimum pricing. I have to say that I am not yet convinced but I want to listen to the evidence and listen to the debate on these issues as part of this Committee. I would say that I am reluctant on behalf of my poorer constituents to have them disproportionately affected by this sort of change as is being proposed. It was proposed by the Law Commission and it is being proposed by some members. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 137 in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to the proposed amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 in her name to Part 1 be agreed to. 
Amendment to the amendments agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendments as amended set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 in the name of the Hon Judith Collins to Part 1 be agreed to. 
Amendments as amended agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 1 as amended be agreed to. 
Ayes 118 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 30 (Ardern J Chauvel Clark Cosgrove Cunliffe Curran Dalziel Dyson Faafoi Fenton Goff Hipkins Horomia Huo Jones King A Lees-Galloway Little Mackey Mahuta Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Shearer Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; Mana 1; United Future 1; Other 1 (Mallard). 
Noes 2 
New Zealand Labour 2 (Robertson R Sio). 
Part 1 as amended agreed to. 
Part 2 Ages for sale and purchase of alcohol on licensed premises 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We now move to Part 2. There is no debate on Part 2 in accordance with the determination of the Business Committee; however there is an amendment. The Minister’s amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 proposes to delete Part 2. This is a direct negative of the question. We move to the vote on Part 2. The question is that Part 2 be agreed to. 
Part 2 not agreed to. 
New Part 2A Review of ages for sale and purchase of alcohol 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We now move to new Part 2A. We have a number of amendments that propose new parts and related new provisions. The first of these is an amendment in the name of Hone Harawira set out on Supplementary Order Paper 121. This proposes a new Part 2A relating to the review of ages for the sale and purchase of alcohol. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I will rise to speak in support of the amendment moved by the honourable Hone Harawira. I note the additional elements. 
I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This would be helpful for me. The other elements of a new Part 2A and Part 7 relating to advertising and sponsorship will be dealt with separately. So this is purely on the amendment moved by the honourable Hone Harawira on Supplementary Order Paper 121? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Correct. We will move to the others shortly. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: That is fine. I will speak on that. I am hoping that the honourable Hone Harawira himself will take a call on his Supplementary Order Paper but I felt that it was important that we get the debate going on this matter. I felt that I was an appropriate person to speak to it because I voted for the split age in terms of the age issue which we in fact dealt with the last time we debated the bill. I want to speak in favour of the amendment even though I voted for the split age and then ultimately voted to retain the age at 18. The reason that I want to support this amendment is that it will answer I believe one of the concerns that the public have around the age question. What it asks the Parliament to do is to amend the Alcohol Reform Bill by inserting provisions for the Ministry of Justice to review the ages for the sale and purchase of alcohol on licensed premises within 5 years of the commencement of the bill. I think that what the member has been trying to do is to ask the Parliament to have a mechanism where there is an automatic review taking place. There might be a willingness expressed by all parties to review the operation of legislation after a particular period of time but I believe that to have it written into the legislation would actually be a help and it would help people understand that the Parliament will not let another 12 years go by before the law is reviewed again. That is because a lot of the public have actually accepted the argument that the purchase age is such a top issue although I do not believe that any of the evidence presented by the Law Commission and by those who have been advocating for the five-plus-one option has put age at the top of the range of measures that need to be taken. The reason that they have not put it at the top is that it is effective to a certain extent but it is not the most effective measure that could be taken and it certainly does not rate in the top three of those measures but it certainly does warrant the Committee’s ongoing attention. 
I think that the public have bought into this issue of the age being so important because it is the only issue in the legislation that has been the subject of a conscience vote on the part of the Government. The Government has whipped the entire caucus on every other element of the legislation. Something that I had hoped we would get to ourselves is that we were hoping to be able to get rid of the conscience vote. I was the one who actually raised it in the first instance when I was Associate Minister of Justice back in 2008. It occurred to me that the only year when it is absolutely impossible to get any alcohol reform is election year and it is because of the conscience vote. The huge amount of pressure that came on people to vote in a particular way—certainly the community’s voice could not match the pressure really of big business that was able to I believe put a lot of pressure on people in terms of how they voted on particular issues. The purchase age has never been a particular issue for the industry so that is the one issue that is just not an issue and I think that is why the Government was prepared to give that away. It was not prepared I think to let brand new MPs confront the reality of their constituents who were looking for a lot more from this Parliament than what they are getting from this bill. 
I like the idea of reviewing legislation on a relatively fixed date. The reason that I say that is that when I was first elected to Parliament or some years afterwards in 1993 we had the human rights amendment. I can see Kevin Hague nodding his head sagely because he knows exactly what I am going to say. Charles Chauvel is also nodding his head sagely because he knows exactly what I am going to say. The law required the Government to go through all of its laws and to actually work out which laws were in conflict with the changes that were made to the Human Rights Act and to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act at that time. So there was an obligation on the Government to do that and guess what? It did not do it. We actually got to the expiry date and it had not been done. The expiry date of that particular provision which exempted the Crown from the new provisions of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act had to be extended I believe twice until we finally got through the statutory references legislation. 
I believe that the member Hone Harawira feels very passionately about this issue of purchase age and I know that not every member has the opportunity to put forward a Supplementary Order Paper but I actually think that we owe it to everyone who supports this amendment to actually debate it. To have a proposal for a review in 5 years I think is a very sensible one indeed. So I hope that the Committee will support the amendment. I had hoped that the member himself would be able to take a call and I thought my contributing to the debate in such a reasonable way might have given the member Hone Harawira the idea that perhaps he should take a call on this bill. If that message can get through to his office I am sure that will assist the debate. It is something that I think is important; sometimes it is important to stand for something. Even though I did not vote for the measure that he was concerned about I am perfectly happy to support a measure that says that we review the operation of a decision that is made by this Parliament within a reasonable time frame. We simply cannot allow 12 years to go by and then have somebody else ask why we never had a look at it again. I think if we write it into the law we will actually get the opportunity—well more than the opportunity; we have an obligation—to review it and to see whether the concerns that were raised at the time have in fact been addressed. 
In fact there are probably other parts of the legislation which we are going to be passing over the next couple of days or next three days or however long it takes—I think that what we might find is that there are other parts of this legislation that might also benefit from such an amendment. I might look at whether we need some additional amendments as we go through the Committee stage as this is an opportunity to do just that. 
So I do congratulate the member on bringing the matter to the attention of the Committee. It is an opportunity for us to talk about whether we have got an opportunity in the future to reflect on decisions that we have made based on the evidence because the evidence will be available. I would like to take the opportunity to completely disagree with everything that Trevor Mallard said about my very respected colleagues in Christchurch who have done nothing but devote— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Sally Casswell used to be very impartial. I used to deal with Sally Casswell. She was terribly impartial! 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I am very proud of Sally Casswell and Doug Sellman and all of the public health people. They are not self-interested. All they care about is the public health of New Zealand. We actually should have people who care about the public health of New Zealand because if there is one thing that has actually diminished under this Government it is health promotion. We might talk about operations and various other things but health promotion has gone down the drain under this Government. It is not playing the leadership position that we ought to be playing in the world. New Zealand led the world on tobacco law reform. We should be leading the world on alcohol law reform as well and that is what I challenge the Committee to do with this amendment. 
Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
: 
 I also rise to speak in favour of this new Part 2A in the Alcohol Reform Bill proposed by Hone Harawira in Supplementary Order Paper 121 requiring a review of ages for the sale and purchase of alcohol being written into the legislation and specifying a 5-year period at the end of which the provisions around the age of sale and purchase should be reviewed. I think this is a very sensible measure not just because I lost on both of the votes that we took on the age. I voted in the first instance for a split age and in the second instance for the age to be raised to 20. The reasons I did that were purely and simply health grounds and purely and simply because the work of the Law Commission was based on evidence that came before it. It is on that same basis that I would like the age for the sale and purchase of alcohol to be reviewed as of law and as of a specified time this being 5 years after the commencement of this Act. 
 It seems to me that with this particularly sensitive piece of what is social legislation many parts of which have traditionally been subjected to a conscience vote it is imperative that this House revisit its decisions on this legislation at regular intervals. Hone Harawira has said 5 years. I will support that because we will arrive after a couple of days of debate at a piece of legislation that will set down the law surrounding the availability the promotion and the sale and purchase of alcohol. I do not believe that our social circumstances will remain the same in 5 years’ time as they are now. In other words we have waited 12 years for this opportunity to come to this House and it has been a long time coming and I am disappointed in many of the provisions in the legislation as it appears now. There is much that I will support because it is an improvement on what we have got but that is not the highest accolade I could wish for in a piece of legislation of this sort. In 5 years’ time we will be able to assess the extent to which the alcohol industry the hospitality industry and everybody associated with them have been able to find ways around the laws that we are about to pass. 
Although I am disappointed about some of the provisions that are in the legislation particularly around advertising and promotion and so on—and there are amendments and Supplementary Order Papers to address some of these which I do support—the fact remains that in 5 years’ time we will be in a better place to know whether or not the hospitality industry and all of those industrial giants that benefit from as light-handed a regulatory approach to this issue as possible have been able to find ways of subverting it. In other words are there new products on the market? Clearly there are new products on the market now targeted at young people that were not present the last time liquor laws were promulgated by this Parliament. There are new approaches to advertising there are new risks and dangers attaching to new products and we need to have the chance to revisit the age of sale and purchase on the basis of contemporary evidence. It is for that reason that I would support Hone Harawira’s new Part 2A which would seek to embed a 5-year review period into this legislation. 
One of the things that I think is a real concern is the area of health promotion and I do agree with my colleague who has just resumed her seat the Hon Lianne Dalziel that health promotion has taken a tumble under this Government. Even though a health promotion agency has recently been established we have yet to see whether or not it is going to be strong enough to stand up to vested interests of industry. That has yet to be seen. In 5 years’ time if we have evidence that new products are on the market that are not covered by the legislation if there are new ways of promoting or advertising or enticing young people into consuming alcohol and consuming it in a way that is not safe then this Parliament ought to be given the imperative of a 5-year review period to bring back to the floor of this Chamber the whole question of the age of purchase and sale of alcohol so that it can be debated again and the contemporary evidence including any evidence that health promotion efforts that have been undertaken have been successful can be assessed. 
 I am concerned that we often talk—and there has been talk already in the debate this afternoon—that this is a “once in a generation” opportunity to get our alcohol laws right. I remain disappointed with many aspects of this legislation. I think that Hone Harawira’s amendment is a good halfway house—perhaps that is not the most appropriate expression either in the context of this debate. However this does seem to be a good compromise measure that would compel this House to review the age of sale and purchase again on the basis of contemporary current evidence and on the basis of whether or not we know that any health promotion and health education messages are in fact working for our young people. This is an issue of concern. This is an issue that many out in the general public feel this House has got wrong. I think it is incumbent upon this Committee to put in place a point at which there must be a review. Hone Harawira’s amendment seeks to do this and for that reason I support it. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Justice) 
: 
 Thank you for the opportunity to speak in relation to Supplementary Order Paper 121 that Hone Harawira has put up to amend the Alcohol Reform Bill. I have been waiting for Mr Harawira to speak in favour of his Supplementary Order Paper. He has certainly had a lot of help from the Hon Lianne Dalziel and the Hon Maryan Street but unfortunately he has to date remained silent. The fact is that any member of this House can bring in a member’s bill to change the age for the purchase of alcohol. It does not need a review to do it; it can be done any time. The fact is that this Parliament has recently decided to vote to retain the age of purchase at 18 which I believe was a mistake. I think that as the evidence becomes more obvious to people particularly as we know now around the development of young people’s brains—the frontal lobe—Parliament made a mistake. I do not think we need to have a review committee to tell us that. But the fact is that Parliament has made a decision and I respect it. The amendment proposed by Mr Harawira is something on which I think if he expects other members to vote for it he should be able to speak to it himself. 
DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First) 
: 
 New Zealand First also supports this particular proposal in Supplementary Order Paper 121 for a review in 5 years. We see the proposal as being a positive one. It is a reasonable one and it is a forward-looking proposal. It is effectively a sunset clause in respect of the purchase age provisions of the Alcohol Reform Bill. We think it would help to unify the community if it knew that there was going to be a review in 5 years to see how the proposed legislation will get on. I think people would accept the decision that has been made about the purchase age more readily if they knew that a review would be coming up in 5 years. I have to say that in my first speech I did refer to one particular period where the purchase age of 20 years had subsisted for a period of I think something like 60 years before more recent amendments had been made. It does show therefore how time can go on and on without a review of these sorts of provisions. So I think it is a very healthy proposal and it should be supported. 
Most particularly though it does not attempt to avoid or defeat the decision that has already been made concerning the purchase age. I think that is very important. All it does is ask for a review. It is not an attempt to undo something that has already been voted upon. The review is an independent consideration of all of the other provisions in the bill and all of the Supplementary Order Papers with other proposals that have been put forward so it should therefore be welcomed by the proponents of 18 years the proponents of 20 years and indeed the proponents of a split age. All of them no matter which way they feel is appropriate should be willing to reassess what has happened after 5 years to see whether they would change their minds based on the results. It applies to on-licence and off-licence premises so those who proposed the split age would get another chance to have a look to see what had resulted and whether any further change was indicated. I think it is particularly positive that a committee would be established and that a report would be provided. So it is not just a simple sunset clause; it is one that requires much more action than that. What I would expect is that the report would provide objective and scientifically based information that a Parliament in 5 years’ time could look at to see whether any further change was then required. 
I disagree thoroughly with the Minister of Justice who says that anyone can do any of this at any time. What we know actually happens is that these things drift and they drift and they drift and no genuine review takes place. Any future proposal would presumably not have the benefit of the deliberations and the fact-finding functions of a committee of this kind. I think that is a very positive part of the proposal. We do need a Government to take this seriously in the future. Five years covers two parliamentary terms so that would mean that it may well not be this Government. It may well be a totally different Government altogether which may well wish to have the benefit of a committee’s deliberations and a committee’s fact-finding function to put before it some really important facts and assessments which could then be used to see whether the law requires further review. So I think that the 5-year period is a particularly appropriate period. I think that the review is likely to bring forward some very interesting information. I think that the public does actually want to see the results of those sorts of investigations. 
We have had investigations by some parties—the Law Commission and others—but what we have not had is a Parliament-directed review that targets the purchase age provision specifically. That I think despite what some people think really is an important part of the current legislation and I would certainly like to see that reviewed in the full course of time. As I have said I think 5 years is an appropriate period. That review will be useful only if the Government puts forward sufficient resources to ensure that the review is meaningful. Those resources would enable the committee to carry out investigations and as I have said bring forward objective and scientifically based information which would require I think surveys and the collection of data and so forth so that Parliament in the future would get a genuine opportunity to look at objective information acquired through parliamentary procedure itself and not be reliant on outside parties. It could then make a full and comprehensive review as to whether or not the current decision for 18 years was appropriate and should be continued. 
I think it is possibly one of the best Supplementary Order Papers that we have before us to consider as part of this particular bill. The purchase age should certainly be reviewed. It is not a decision to do one thing or another. It is a decision to make it possible for a future Parliament to make a better decision than has been available to us because we have not had the sort of information that I would expect to come forward as a result of this review. New Zealand First supports this proposal enthusiastically and recommends it to the rest of the members of the House. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 When Parliament debated the purchase age for alcohol I voted for change. I voted for the split age. When that failed I then changed my vote to support a purchase age of 18 but I really wanted to see us change to a split age. I thought there was a lot of merit in the split age proposal. However members may recall that I said during that debate that we were placing far too much emphasis and far too much focus on age as the sole source of redemption for Parliament when it comes to trying to address alcohol harm. The Government has done a very good job of singling out that issue and framing the debate around alcohol reform as a debate about age. I congratulate the Government on the framing the messaging and the marketing that it has done around that because it has been a superb effort on its part to distract the debate and the public from the weakness and the timidity of other parts of this so-called Alcohol Reform Bill. 
Although I voted for change when we had the opportunity to vote on the age I will not be supporting Hone Harawira’s Supplementary Order Paper 121 which seeks a 5-year review of the purchase age of alcohol because I think we have had that debate and it is done. It may be a good principle to review all legislation every 5 years. That may be a good principle. I know that other members have discussed that as being something that we ought to do. If that is a good principle then we should apply it to all legislation. It may be that we need to review this legislation specifically after 5 years. Indeed I think that once we have a stronger and more visionary Government than we have at the moment alcohol law will be reviewed by a future Government. It may be appropriate to apply that 5-year review to all of the changes that are being made or are being proposed and may fail during this debate. 
 But to single out this single issue of age I think continues that framing of this debate around alcohol harm as being one about age. I think it would be unfortunate for us to continue along in that vein because this is not solely about age which is the whole point of the debate we are having this afternoon. This is not just about age. It is about advertising it is about drink-driving it is about the supply of alcohol it is about parental responsibility and it is about the price of alcohol—it is about all sorts of factors. Age is not the only one and it should not be top of the list. It certainly is an issue that we could have addressed and we could have done something but we chose not to and if we chose not to and we are not going to review any other parts of the legislation then I do not see why we should review this particular part of the legislation. 
I was concerned at Denis O’Rourke’s comment that this is one of the best Supplementary Order Papers one of the best amendments we will consider today. It is not. It is absolutely not one of the best amendments we will consider today. There are many more meaningful purposeful evidence-based amendments that we will consider—[ 
Interruption 
]—I may have a couple in there but there are others as well that are not in my name that I will be looking forward to supporting and debating. Age is not the most important issue but that is the message the public is getting—that age is the most important issue—and we need to move on from that. We need to move on from that and that is why we cannot support this amendment and we cannot put up with comments like that about this being the most important Supplementary Order Paper. We need to actually focus on the other things that members are proposing in this legislation that will actually do something about our alcohol harm problem that we have in New Zealand. 
So although I think we are going to need to review this legislation and although I think a 5-year statutory review of the Alcohol Reform Bill might be a good way forward I cannot support singling out the issue of age any further. 
Hon ANNETTE KING (Labour—Rongotai) 
: 
 Can I say to my colleague Iain Lees-Galloway who has just resumed his seat that I agree that Supplementary Order Paper 121 is not the only important Supplementary Order Paper to the Alcohol Reform Bill. In fact there are some very good ones which I intend to support. But it is a Supplementary Order Paper that has been put forward by Hone Harawira and deals with I think his passionate concern around the age at which alcohol can be bought and consumed. In that spirit I am going to support this amendment. 
I am one of those who have never changed their mind in terms of what the drinking age should be. I was the Minister of Health who voted to retain the drinking age at 20 based on what I believe was good health background and evidence. In every vote since I have not been persuaded that we ought to change the age. 
This particular provision deals with our looking once again at the age and the Ministry of Justice reviewing it in 5 years’ time. I think that is a very good suggestion indeed because the last review we had of alcohol as my colleague Lianne Dalziel pointed out took 12 years. It went to the Law Commission. It was a major piece of work and took a considerable amount of time. The only concern I have is that the Law Commission was not given the opportunity to write this bill because I am sure that if it had written this bill we actually might have had a more comprehensive one than this and many more of its recommendations would have been agreed to. But it took 12 years for that review and I do not believe we should wait another 12 years or longer before we look at particular issues. Lianne Dalziel has already signalled that there may be other issues that ought to be up for review in a shorter time frame. What this amendment does is say that we will relook at ages for purchase and sale on licensed premises within 5 years of the commencement of this Act. It is not the big bells and whistles of the Law Commission; it is done by the Ministry of Justice. 
Why I support it is because you do need to base your policy on ongoing evidence and research and things do change. I am very persuaded by Dr Peter Gluckman the Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister who is constantly telling the Government that it ought to provide policy based on research and evidence. I think that in the next 5 years there will be considerable research gathered. For example the World Health Assembly now issues a global status report on the harm of alcohol and its first major report came out last year. It arose out of a global strategy from the World Health Organization because nations wanted to look at strategies and approaches to reduce the harm of alcohol. In fact my understanding is that New Zealand was one of the hundred nations that supported a global strategy on alcohol and one of their recommendations was to raise the age for sale of alcohol. So I would like us to be always looking at what the latest evidence is and what the research shows in terms of changing patterns the impact on health and the different issues that arise out of the consumption of alcohol. 
I also think the public would like us to relook at the age issue in 5 years’ time. They would support as we saw in a poll last week the age being 20 years. I know that many here voted for that. I know that others voted for the split age. I know that others voted for 18. I accept people’s votes; I just wish other people would remember how they voted. But the public— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Brain fade. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: Brain fade. Well what does it come from? This is what we need greater research on. Does brain fade come from too much consumption of alcohol? 
The public have made it clear that they would like the age to be 20. I think that with the ministry undertaking this review of it in 5 years’ time we can base decisions on the latest research and evidence and not just licking— 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 I was one of the members in the House who throughout supported retaining the purchase age at 18. I believe that I reached that position on the basis of the evidence that I heard in the Justice and Electoral Committee in the previous Parliament. As I said in my earlier contribution the experts who came independently to the committee who were not from the industry identified a number of factors where if we tightened regulation we could make a difference to our binge drinking culture. It is true that age was one of those but it was never the most significant or the most important. As my colleague Lianne Dalziel said the issues of availability of advertising and of pricing were seen as much more significant influences. 
I just want to make a brief call in this part of the debate to say this: we should base our decisions on the evidence. We should not fear reviews. I think that Supplementary Order Paper 121 is an appropriate Supplementary Order Paper because we should always be looking at the evidence and whether or not as the member who has just resumed her seat the Hon Annette King said best practice international research and the experts tell us that there are new factors that we should be considering. We should always be keeping an open mind on this issue. 
What I just want to say is this: since I first became a member of this House I have served on and off on the Justice and Electoral Committee and that has been a rewarding experience but we have a tendency in this place to assume that certain matters ought to go to that committee as a matter of course. I in supporting this Supplementary Order Paper—and I hope it will pass—would make this plea to the House: if it does pass let us think about some Standing Orders or some sessional orders around how this review should work. Why should it go to the Justice and Electoral Committee? This is a health issue just as all of our regulation of potentially hazardous substances like alcohol ought to be just as drug law reform ought to be just as prostitution law reform ought to be and just as abortion and the issues surrounding that issue ought to be. These things should not be considered always in a justice framework. That is with respect an old-fashioned way of thinking about these issues. 
If we are thinking about these matters going forward we should be considering them in a health paradigm. It is health that matters when it comes to these issues. We should be sending it off to the Health Committee not to the Justice and Electoral Committee and not to one of the law reform - related committees just because historically that is where these sorts of things went. The best place for these sorts of things to be considered by our Parliament is the Health Committee. I would just want to end my contribution on this new part with a plea that when we deal with these sorts of issues in future we send them to the right committee. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I do intend to seek a call in this debate but can I first of all seek your guidance about a matter that has been raised in the debate on this Supplementary Order Paper 121 today which is around the suggestion of a wider review indeed of the Alcohol Reform Bill once it is enacted. In the lead-up to this Committee of the whole House debate on the Alcohol Reform Bill there has been a procedure followed through the Business Committee whereby a deadline was set for the submission of Supplementary Order Papers. It seems to me that in the debate that we have heard over the last half an hour or so there have actually been some interesting points made about a wider review of the bill as enacted and I wonder whether it would be in order for the Committee to receive further Supplementary Order Papers on that matter. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The short answer to that is no. If you wanted to broaden the scope then you would have to do it by way of an instruction when the House was sitting as opposed to being in the Committee and there has been no instruction. So in answer to your question the only way that you could broaden the scope of the bill is by way of instruction when the House is sitting as opposed to in Committee if you wanted to broaden the scope of the bill because anything that is within the scope of a bill can be changed only by amendments in the Supplementary Order Paper process. It is not to say that you cannot debate on the points that have been made about broadening the scope later on—that is fine—but at this stage the answer to your question is no it cannot be included. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. My understanding was that the agreement of the Business Committee around amendments to the bill in the Committee stage was that Supplementary Order Papers that sought to extend the scope of the legislation were to be tabled by a particular time but I did not understand that there was any further extension. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Yes. That is substantive amendments by a certain date. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
HONE HARAWIRA (Leader—Mana) 
: 
 First of all I would like to thank Mr Nathan Guy for supporting this Supplementary Order Paper 121. Thank you Nathan. It is most appreciated. I have heard many of the arguments both for and against my Supplementary Order Paper for a review of the ages for sale and purchase of alcohol on licensed premises within 5 years of the commencement of the Alcohol Reform Bill. I thank all of the members for their consideration. But I simply ask: what could be wrong with a review? It is not an overturning of the age for those who support the 18-18 scenario. It is simply a review of the situation. I am not going to relitigate all of the debate that has been had in the past couple of hours—excellent korero. Suffice to point out that when I spoke to a number of MPs after the vote was taken on this issue some weeks ago some of them told me that they actually voted for the 18-18 scenario not out of a deeply held conviction that it was the right thing to do but because they thought that in an environment where 18 to 20-year-olds have so much voting power it might be a bit risky to vote against something that 18 to 20-year-olds patently wanted so much. 
Michael Woodhouse 
: That’s cynical. 
HONE HARAWIRA 
: Cynical? That is also true. One of the MPs—so that you know—was a member of the National Party. I will not tell you who. It was not Minister Collins. But this issue is not one where we should be wavering nor is it one where we should be necessarily accommodating to people just because of age. I am comfortable with the votes of those who genuinely think the age should be 18-18 but I know that the vote on the night was not what many members wanted so I simply want to provide the opportunity to revisit this matter at the earliest opportunity. 
I took note of one comment though from Mr Lees-Galloway who felt that he could not bring himself to vote for my Supplementary Order Paper because he thought that any review should cover a wider range of issues. Well all I can say to that is that if he wanted to put forward some of the other issues then I would have been happy to support them. But I sincerely hope that he can still see the value in supporting something because it is right rather than opposing it just because it does not cover all of the things that he necessarily wanted it to say. 
But coming back again to my first point this Supplementary Order Paper is not to change the law. This Supplementary Order Paper is not an attempt to overturn what this House has already determined. This is simply providing an opportunity for all members to reconsider in 5 years’ time the vote that was taken on the issue of age some weeks ago. Ka nui tera maku. Kia ora tatou katoa. 
[ 
That is enough from me. Thank you to us all. 
] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I would like to draw your attention to what I think is a gap in the Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings when it comes to split party votes. I would like to refer you to Speakers’ ruling 66/6 from Speakers O’Rorke and Lang who were distinguished Speakers of the House and 66/7 from Mr Ian Revell who I think it is fair to say was a less distinguished Chairperson of the Committee. What they indicate when taken together is that there does not appear to be provision for members who are personally voting as part of a split vote but who hold the proxies for a split vote to call for a party vote on a particular issue. I think it was highlighted in one of the earlier votes when notwithstanding the fact that I was voting for something and that was a declared vote I asked for and got from the Chairperson a ruling that there could in fact be a party vote. What I am looking for is a ruling from you that where a member is holding the proxies for a split vote they can in fact call for a party vote notwithstanding the fact that they do themselves agree with the ruling that you have made as to the result. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I am a little perplexed by the member’s point of order in this regard: you call for a party vote but then if a member is holding proxies on both sides of the argument why could they not call for a party vote? The member means party vote not personal vote? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 No. I will give you a bit more of a hand if you like. I think if you look carefully at Speaker’s ruling 66/7 and what that indicates—and I will say that it is one of the less distinguished rulings in the Speakers’ rulings—what it indicates is that if a member themselves is voting in a way that agrees with the ruling of the Speaker or the Chairman they are not allowed to call for a party vote. My view is that in fact in these circumstances where there is a split vote it would be helpful if you indicated that in those circumstances they can. I think you might have just about done it already but it would be good if you did it in a more formal way. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I have two quick points. Firstly Speaker’s ruling 66/7 relates to personal votes and as the Speaker has clarified earlier today there are only two types of votes: one is a personal vote and one is a party vote. It has been this party’s experience on a number of occasions in the 50th Parliament where I on behalf of other parties vote in a way different from that which I would myself vote because I hold the proxies. This is quite a simple equation. It is articulated in  
McGee 
 pages 206 and 207. Any member is entitled to call for a party vote and the whips can then vote according to the proxies that they hold. That is called a split vote. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Look I think I am on top of it. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: You’ve read further into it? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Yes I have. When you look at it in some depth there are two contrary points of view here. I think that is the point that the member is alluding to. I have indicated quite clearly at the end of question time that we want to get the best possible outcomes for this. So in terms of calling for a party vote for the purpose of this piece of legislation the Alcohol Reform Bill I am prepared to let any member whatever proxies they are calling call for the vote. I think the inconsistencies between these are for another time and maybe for the Standing Orders Committee. A considered opinion needs to be given but in terms of getting the right outcomes here I think I understand the point that the member has made and I will permit that to happen. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Thank you Mr Chairman. Just briefly by way of summary I thank you for your conclusion and suggest that both you and the senior Government whip could look to the midpoint of 66/7 which makes it clear that that is not about personal votes it is about party votes. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: And also time-wasting. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Not at all—this is not time-wasting. This is making sure that we do not have things ruled out later and cause a lot of wasted time. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Sorry to interrupt the member also but my interpretation of this was that it was to deal with a separate issue which may well have been time-wasting at the time. That is not in the purview of what we are doing here. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 121 in the name of Hone Harawira to insert new Part 2A be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to.  
Ayes 50 
New Zealand Labour 27 (Ardern J Chauvel Clark Cosgrove Cunliffe Curran Dalziel Dyson Faafoi Goff Horomia Huo Jones King A Little Mahuta Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Robertson R Sio Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Mana 1. 
Noes 70 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 5 (Fenton Hipkins Lees-Galloway Mackey Shearer); Maori Party 3; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1; Other 1 (Mallard). 
New Part 2A not agreed to. 
New Parts 2A and 7 new clauses 58A and 220A and amendment to clause 220 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Members the next debate is on new Part 2A and new Part 7. We come now to a group of proposals that will be taken as one debate relating to advertising and sponsorship. These comprise Te Ururoa Flavell’s amendments proposing new Part 2A and new clause 58A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 81; Iain Lees-Galloway’s amendments proposing new Part 2A new clause 220 and new Part 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 91; and Dr David Clark’s amendment proposing a new clause 220A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 115. 
IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 During the select committee process of the Alcohol Reform Bill there was a significant voice from the submitters that Parliament needed to have a look at how we regulate the advertising and sponsorship of alcohol. In fact 79 percent of those who submitted to the Justice and Electoral Committee advocated for a complete ban on sponsorship. There was considerable discussion around the Health Sponsorship Council proposal which is what was done with tobacco where tobacco sponsorship was removed and the Government stepped in and in a sense I suppose weaned those organisations that received sponsorship from the tobacco industry off that sponsorship. Today of course Smokefree is still around but it does not do as much as it used to and those sports and arts and other groups that relied on tobacco sponsorship have moved on from that. That was the thrust of many of the submissions to the select committee. 
There is no doubt that in trying to find an appropriate position on advertising and sponsorship this is a balancing act. It is true that many organisations rely heavily on sponsorship and it is also true that much of the advertising of alcohol that does exist is I suppose done in a good-natured way. It is certainly not on the face of it designed to encourage binge drinking or the irresponsible use of alcohol. So it is a delicate issue for Parliament there is no doubt. It is also true that this is one of the issues that the alcohol industry least wants Parliament to move on. Although there are plenty of other measures that are or could be addressed in this bill that the alcohol industry has stated that it is reasonably relaxed with this is one that it is not relaxed about at all and I can understand that such a level of opposition from an industry as large as the alcohol lobby does make Governments nervous. However that is not a reason for us not to act. 
The Alcohol Reform Bill is certainly very light on the issue of advertising; in fact it really does not tackle it at all. So what we have seen is a range of proposed amendments from members. I would like particularly to address my own which I believe does strike a reasonable balance between those who are at the front line who deal with alcohol-related harm and who want to see alcohol-related harm reduced and their desire to see a reduction or even an elimination of alcohol advertising and those who rely on alcohol sponsorship and those who support the continuation of the advertising of alcohol. All the measures in my Supplementary Order Paper 91 are lifted directly from the Law Commission report so these have not been dreamt up. These have come from a very strong evidence base. These have come from the months of consultation and the screeds of evidence that has been gathered around alcohol-related harm and they come from a position where these are the points that have been pulled out as the things that need to be done to actually address advertising’s role in the harm related to alcohol. So what my Supplementary Order Paper would do is initially a few things that are targeted and that are easy to achieve in the short term. It would then set up the mechanism by which the Government and Parliament can take a longer-term approach to what is the appropriate way to tackle alcohol advertising and sponsorship and to see whether we might eventually reach the point where we have the Health Sponsorship Council model or whether we might reach some other point. But it would be done in a logical and considered manner over a number of years because what we are trying to achieve here is something that is lasting something that will last the change of Governments and something that will not need to be revisited again in the future. My concern is that if we move too far too quickly then there will be a temptation to reverse that quickly or indeed measures that go too far too quickly will not succeed in this House at this time but also if we do absolutely nothing then we are not taking the opportunities that we have to address issues related to alcohol advertising. 
So what I propose is a number of small measures mostly directed at children. One measure is to have a zone round schools in which alcohol advertising cannot exist. I think particularly of some of the areas that I visited in Auckland where very very close to schools we see huge alcohol advertising—particularly advertising of extremely cheap alcohol—all in full view of children day after day after day as they are travelling to and from school. What that does is it normalises the idea that alcohol is an important and everyday part of life. In fact the advertising of alcohol at very cheap prices reinforces the idea that you should get as much of it as possible and that when it is cheap you should buy as much alcohol as you possibly can. That is an environment in which I do not think we need our children to be growing up in. It is an environment that encourages an unhealthy attitude to and relationship with alcohol and it can easily be nipped in the bud with that simple measure. 
The second measure is simply to shift the television advertising watershed to 9 p.m. It is not a big shift but a recognition that many young children are awake to a much later hour and are watching television to a much later hour. The measure will remove—as is already the intention from having a watershed in the first place—that advertising from television at a time when young children are likely to be able to see it. 
The third measure is to remove alcohol advertising at cinemas where the film being shown is not an R18 film. Again there is no need for young people to be bombarded with alcohol advertising. There is no need for parents to have to put up with taking their kids to a film—you know a genuine kids’ film like  
Finding Nemo 
 or any of the number of kids’ films that are on during the holidays—and to have themselves and their children bombarded with advertising for alcohol or alcohol outlets at those films. 
The fourth measure is to ensure that price and the discounting of alcohol cannot be included in any advertisements. I know from the commentary from people who take an interest in the Alcohol Reform Bill that it is the one aspect of this Supplementary Order Paper that people are particularly interested in because they know that the advertising of discounted alcohol and cheap alcohol encourages the purchasing of large volumes of alcohol and that is something that we want to discourage as well. This is all about trying to create the right environment and send the right signals to people in terms of how they develop their alcohol purchasing attitudes and what their relationship is with alcohol. 
 Finally what my Supplementary Order Paper would do is to set up an alcohol advertising reform committee as envisaged by the Law Commission which would operate over a period of 5 years to look at the bigger picture—whether or not we want to continue with alcohol advertising in New Zealand whether or not we want to continue with the sponsorship of things like sports groups or teams like the All Blacks. Do we want that close relationship between alcohol and our greatest sporting heroes to be something that children grow up with in New Zealand? What we create through alcohol advertising and sponsorship is a belief that alcohol is closely related to success and social normality. That is something that we want to uncouple. We want children to grow up in New Zealand believing that it is possible to be successful socially it is possible to engage in sport and it is possible to go to school without alcohol being all-pervasive around them. That is what my Supplementary Order Paper seeks to achieve. I know that there are other members who want to move faster who want to see this happen now but I believe my Supplementary Order Paper strikes the right balance. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 Indeed picking up from my good friend Iain Lees-Galloway we do wish to move faster so the Green Party will be voting in favour in fact of Mr Lees-Galloway’s Supplementary Order Paper 91 but also those from David Clark and Te Ururoa Flavell because we believe that each and every one of those is better than what stands in the Alcohol Reform Bill currently. Probably our preference of the three would be Mr Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper 81 because it is the one that is closest in fact to the recommendation of the Law Commission. 
Right now I have living nearby my place on the West Coast a young French guy in his 20s. He comes to our place to watch the rugby and one of the things that has astonished him about New Zealand is that when he looks at the rugby on our screens he sees alcohol sponsorship of our teams and he sees alcohol advertising on TV. In fact in France the country he is from in 1991 all television advertising of alcohol was prohibited and all alcohol sponsorship of sporting and cultural events was prohibited. That is one of the reasons why he has been absolutely astonished by what he has seen. 
You know at that same time 1991 New Zealand actually embarked on a similar kind of measure. It was in 1990 that New Zealand took a step in relation to tobacco advertising and sponsorship using exactly the same rationale that had been used in France in respect of alcohol to prohibit advertising and sponsorship by the tobacco industry. We did so for various reasons. We wanted to reduce consumption of tobacco products and all of the harm associated with those. We wanted to reduce the normalisation of tobacco consumption. And indeed these have been the effects of that extremely successful policy that we implemented at that time: we have reduced the harm we have reduced the normalisation and that has in turn created the environment for us to continue to go further in our ongoing campaign to minimise the harm associated with tobacco consumption. Tobacco companies have been prevented from making the implied claims about positive attributes of their products and of those who consume them. I am sure that all members are familiar with the old-style tobacco advertising which basically associates consumption of tobacco products with being a happy relaxed successful and sexy member of society. These are precisely the claims that are made by the alcohol industry about its products and about the consumers of its products. 
Interestingly in 1990 we instituted this restriction on advertising and sponsorship for tobacco but in 1992 we effectively removed all of the controls on advertising and sponsorship of alcohol. This weird dichotomy in the way that New Zealand Parliaments have approached these two products that are both legally consumed yet each associated with an extraordinary degree of harm continues to perplex everyday New Zealanders but also members of this House looking for consistency in the approach that we take to such products. Right now every 9 minutes on prime-time television viewers are exposed to alcohol advertising—every 9 minutes. Ninety percent of children and young people aged between 5 and 17 are exposed to television advertising on at least a weekly basis—90 percent. That is the ubiquity of the advertising and sponsorship from the alcohol industry. 
I mentioned in an earlier contribution in this Committee stage a health promotion theory that says that if we want to actually improve people’s health then the things that we need to do are to empower communities to take control of their life circumstances but also to create supportive environments around those communities. With the advertising and sponsorship from the alcohol industry that is currently permitted that environment is one in which our communities are pretty much surrounded by and bathed in the blue light from the television tube advertising these products. That is the environment that we create. We create an environment that we know in fact will lead to harm and will normalise the excessive consumption of alcohol products. 
It is that normalisation of alcohol consumption that we need to tackle and any of these Supplementary Order Papers would do that better than the current bill. But it is also important to point out that increased consumption is associated with this advertising and sponsorship. The industry would not do it if it did not lead to more people consuming more alcohol. The industry spends literally hundreds of millions of dollars each year on advertising and sponsorship which means that the net profit associated with that spend is even greater which means that the sales of the products are even greater still. 
The Law Commission said that it should all go and that is what we support. Eighty-six percent of the submissions to the commission supported that goal of a total prohibition and in the 2010 Health Sponsorship Council survey of public opinion 77 percent of respondents were either in favour of a total ban or were agnostic towards it—neutral about it. That is a pretty outstanding majority for that total prohibition. So the reasons for not doing it simply do not apply. I recognise the transition point that Iain Lees-Galloway makes but I say let us do the same thing that we did around tobacco. Let us create a fund to fund that transition for those community organisations that rely on that sponsorship. Let us do what the Law Commission said and instead of the first stage of the commission’s three-stage programme let us implement all three of those stages. That is I think probably all I have time for in this call but if the opportunity arises I will take a further call to make some further points. 
Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I rise to speak to this part new Part 2A and new Part 7 in particular because I have Supplementary Order Paper 115 in my name to the Alcohol Reform Bill around the issue of advertising. The issue of advertising is one of the top things that can make a difference in this area as I said in one of my previous contributions in this debate. Price and marketing are the two big levers that can be pulled in the alcohol sphere to effect behavioural change. That is the finding of the Law Commission’s report to which 3000 New Zealanders submitted and those New Zealanders who submitted their concerns will be very disappointed to learn that the National Government is not allowing its own members to exercise their consciences on this issue. It is a terrible disappointment I think and a sadness in this Parliament that MPs are not treating this issue as a conscience issue in the traditional fashion because here we do have the opportunity—an opportunity that does not present itself very often—to make a real change in the culture we have in New Zealand. 
Before I go directly on to advertising I just want to make a brief comparison with the culture in Germany where I had the good fortune to live as an exchange student many years ago and latterly during some post-graduate study. In Germany the drinking age is a split age but of a different kind from that which we debated in this Parliament. Beer and wine is able to be purchased at age 16 and spirits at age 18. What happens in practice is that in Germany the young people get access to those drinks roughly 2 years before the official age that is designated by their Parliament. They have a much more permissive culture around alcohol and indeed I would argue a healthier culture around alcohol because it is something that is consumed with family under supervision and in a way that indicates that those who do experiment with it are younger and therefore curiously more immature whereas in New Zealand our age of entitlement is often tied up with adulthood in respect of alcohol. That produces a slightly different cultural norm and expectation. People experiment with alcohol when they reach adulthood and therefore it is an adult drink as opposed to Germany where in my observation it is considered a drink that is more associated with— 
Jonathan Young 
: A juvenile drink. 
Dr DAVID CLARK 
: —juvenile behaviour. The member opposite makes the point; he is right. So there are different cultures and we have the opportunity to change our culture for the better. 
The debate has focused largely on age up until now which in my view is a shame because that is not where the real opportunities lie. I was told by one researcher that the age debate in alcohol was like emptying a bucket with a teaspoon: it does make a difference but it takes a very long time and the impact is less noticeable than pulling on levers like advertising and price. So my Supplementary Order Paper which is in respect of advertising aims to reduce the amount of advertising available on New Zealand television to promote liquor products and that is intended to stop the growth of the alcohol market in New Zealand. I am sure that those who already drink will notice limited change in their own behaviour but those who are new to alcohol will not find the array of colourful advertising that they might otherwise find on television and on radio. 
For the benefit of those at home who do not have access to these Supplementary Order Papers and might be watching this I will read the first subclause of new clause 220A which states: “(1) No person or entity may broadcast or arrange for any other person or entity to broadcast any alcohol product advertisement on television or radio in New Zealand.” The Supplementary Order Paper is modelled on what was done in the tobacco field where this has become law in a similar way and there are unintended consequences ruled out. Likewise in the Supplementary Order Paper in the way in which it is modelled it makes sure that overseas broadcasts for example that are taken through a pay network that has advertising as part of the package are allowed to proceed where it is difficult to weed out that advertising. So it is not intended to make an overly burdensome compliance on local content; it is intended to make sure that no additional advertising is being created. 
Likewise the unintended consequence is alluded to in the final subclause on the Supplementary Order Paper which states: “(3) Nothing in this subsection (1) applies to—(a) the exhibition in any museum or art gallery of any work or artefact:” where an aspect of alcohol advertising is permitted. So the Supplementary Order Paper is designed to make sure that we do not have any silly situations where the law might be called into question or ridicule. It is designed to make sure that we are not creating advertising that is glorifying alcohol in the New Zealand context and making it out to be a particularly healthy lifestyle choice. The majority of New Zealanders we know will drink alcohol in a fair way for most of their lives but what we also know is that the evidence suggests that there are ways in which we can curb alcohol-related harm. There is a lot of science around these things and the experts in the field are very clear about what we can change and what we should change. The Government’s legislation as it has proposed it does not really pull the levers that it can pull in respect of price and marketing. So my Supplementary Order Paper aims to get at the marketing issue. I will also be supporting other amendments in a similar vein being put forward by Te Ururoa Flavell and Iain Lees-Galloway because they get to the heart of a similar issue and are designed to restrict advertising that will lead to harmful consequences for our people. 
As I conclude I want to say that it is indeed a disappointment that this legislation is not tackling these issues directly head-on. It is left to Supplementary Order Papers to be debated. It is a shame that the National Party members we are told are going to be whipped into exercising their consciences in a particular way which makes it hard to imagine how those are indeed working consciences. This whipping of the vote means that these issues which are important to New Zealand society are not getting the opportunity to be properly debated. We are debating them as energetically as we can on this side of the Chamber but there is not much debate coming from the other side where those members are succumbing to the pressure put on them to toe the line to not rock the boat and to make sure that they do not upset the apple cart or have an opinion of their own. 
I really think that that is a terrible shame because these are issues—Mr Woodhouse is calling out. I know that he will know that in Dunedin this is a very real issue which the senior members of our community are concerned about which the council is concerned about—he is nodding; he knows this to be true—and which the university is concerned about. I know he too is concerned about this issue. I think it is a real shame that he is not free to exercise his own vote and his own conscience on this issue because it is an issue that affects our community. We know from the evidence that there are harms to our community when we do not have effective legislation and that we do have a problem in New Zealand that needs to be addressed. 
I want to conclude with that remark. It is a shame that the Government is passing up this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to make good on the recommendations the Law Commission put forward from the 300 submissions it received many from experts in the field. I suggest that the Government is tinkering with the law rather than making the substantive changes that are really needed. Thank you. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Chair. Kia ora tatou katoa. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this particular part new Part 2A which is set out on my Supplementary Order Paper 81. Very briefly I will just cut to the explanatory note. For those who are listening I point out that my Supplementary Order Paper amends this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill by adding new Part 2A which bans alcohol advertising and sponsorship with the exemption of on-licence establishments such as bars and restaurants. The ban is intended to come into force in 2 years and to achieve denormalisation of the drinking culture by removing the glamour promoted by advertising and the sponsorship of events. 
When I was a young fella—and I talked earlier today about Wilson Whineray and rugby. Not that I indulged too much after a game but back in the day there were only about five labels of beer and alcohol that I can recall—maybe seven—and generally people stuck to those. Now you can go to bottle stores and you have got everything ranging from Blonde to Pure. I do not know what the opposite beer might look like—Unpure? But you have all those labels. You have Waikato Draught beer—Waikato the champion team in a number of codes. You have got to think back and say: “Well Waikato beer—what’s the link? Is it just because it originated in Waikato or is there something playing on the name and the identity?”. Certainly somebody had a real good idea way back in the day to take Waikato as a label of beer. But now you have got all sorts from our own home-made brew in Aotearoa through to those that have been imported from overseas. 
One of the things that really whacked me around about 3 years ago—not beer; it was not beer—and really got to me was when I went to the Maori Affairs Committee when it questioned a gentleman from overseas. There was a movie made about him; I think it was called  
The Informer 
 or something like that. It had Russell Crowe in it from memory. Anyway the Maori Affairs Committee brought this person across— 
Hon Simon Bridges 
:  
The Real Deal 
. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL 
: It might have been that one. The select committee brought this gentleman across and what he did was he told the select committee that just in cigarette smoking people market right down to the race the age and the gender of people. He talked about marketing to Hispanic women he talked about marketing to black men and to young black men—all that was down to the marketing. 
It really made me understand the power of advertising and the power of image and of brand and how it is used to manipulate in some senses the minds of people. It must be right because obviously there is a big market there called cigarettes and alcohol. That is basically why the Hon Tariana Turia has moved towards plain packaging which is I suppose an endorsement of the idea of advertising of marketing as a powerful instrument in terms of drawing people towards a particular product. That is why we have put this Supplementary Order Paper up—to draw attention to it but also to make it a lot more difficult for those companies to draw people towards the product. 
Mr Kevin Hague earlier talked about some statistics that I suppose put it all in context. I heard him talk about the fact that every 9 minutes during prime-time television there is a scene depicting something to do with alcohol. I heard him talk about the fact that 90 percent of New Zealand children aged between 5 and 17 are exposed to alcohol advertising on TV each week. That is a pretty big group of people. And I suppose the evidence that we certainly got from people like the New Zealand Drug Foundation and so on shows that alcohol advertising one encourages people to start to drink at a younger age; two encourages people who already drink to drink more; and three makes it harder for problem drinkers to abstain. 
Against all that background the general view that they provided as information to us as the Maori Party was that the regulation of alcohol advertising marketing and promotion is considered the second most effective way to reduce problem drinking and alcohol-related harm. If that is the case that is the motivation behind this particular amendment—this particular Supplementary Order Paper. 
Some might suggest alcohol marketing has no effect on who drinks and how many people are drinking. Some might suggest that it just helps people who do drink to know what is available and to encourage them to pick one product over another. That is one argument but the rebuttal of that would be that if advertising and marketing had no impact on people’s drinking then the alcohol industry would not be wasting about $400000 a day or $150 million a year on it. There is the background on that and the rebuttal to that discussion. 
The evidence clearly shows that exposure to alcohol advertising particularly at a younger age makes people more likely to start drinking earlier and become heavy drinkers and marketing methods—as you know no doubt as you watch TV—have become more sophisticated and subtle than the ads that we see on TV or in magazines. Through sponsorship of youth events like music festivals the utilisation of social media and the creation of products such as ready-to-drinks alcohol companies are clearly and deliberately targeting young people. 
For those who suggest that we already have a code of liquor advertising and the Advertising Standards Authority to ensure that alcohol advertising conforms to standards the downside is that it is really voluntary self-regulation. It is not a model that is working well in any country that we understand. In fact in New Zealand the people responsible for upholding the standards are the Advertising Standards Authority—a private sector body representing the advertising and media industries. Against that background you would have to say they are not exactly independent. 
Just to conclude the Advertising Standards Authority relies on public complaint. So if there is no complaint then technically no standard has been breached. But it is simply not working. Promotion of excessive alcohol consumption continues despite its being illegal since 1999. I appreciate the comments of many other speakers this evening in support of my Supplementary Order Paper. The Maori Party will obviously be supporting my Supplementary Order Paper as well as Mr Iain Lees-Galloway’s and also— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: David Clark. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL 
: David that is right—sorry e hoa. I am happy to support those Supplementary Order Papers as well. We hope that one of them gets through at least but we do not want to hold our breath too much against the current climate of how this thing is going. But we do hope that the combined views of members in Parliament—the Labour Party and certainly I think the Greens who are supporting this as well—indicate that advertising and marketing play an integral role in maintaining the whole drinking culture in Aotearoa. We are looking to change that and we would hope that the Minister of Justice looks favourably upon these Supplementary Order Papers which are presented to the Committee in the spirit of cooperation and of trying to make a real difference to lives of New Zealanders. Kia ora tatou. 
Hon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister of Justice) 
: 
 I rise just to address the Supplementary Order Papers that have been brought forward by members so far. I think it is important at the outset to speak to a number of ancillary points that have been raised in the course of this debate. The first one which was raised by the member David Clark talked about conscience votes. What Mr Clark did not have the opportunity to draw on was the discussions that occurred within the Justice and Electoral Committee in the last term of Government. It is important to note that in the whole course of those discussions it was accepted by people from across the parties represented there that there would probably be party votes on everything except age. That was very clearly where the select committee members went to with the knowledge of their wider parties. There was no suggestion that there were going to be conscience votes on anything other than the age question and that was the recommendation of the Law Commission’s report. This is the same Law Commission report that every spokesman from the Opposition draws out and holds up as the absolute gospel in respect of alcohol debate in this country and yet they have moved away from a sentinel part of that report: that parties nail their colours to the mast and vote as parties in respect of these matters. 
Another point that the Hon Lianne Dalziel raises consistently is what happened to her bill the bill she introduced when she was part of the last Labour Government prior to the 2008 election. It is important to note this point. Her bill was introduced to the House on 8 August 2008. The House rose on 23 September 2008 for an election. There were only 11 sitting days between 8 August and 23 September. What happened after that was the bill went on to the select committee and what happened after that was that the incoming National Government under the then Minister of Justice the Hon Simon Power replaced the bill that we hear about from the Hon Lianne Dalziel with his own bill. That is not unusual. In fact it certainly happened under the Labour Government which replaced bills that the then National Government introduced prior to the 1999 election and rewrote them itself. I cite the victims legislation that the Hon Phil Goff as was his right replaced the Hon Tony Ryall’s bill with in respect of victims of crime. I lay out for those people who are interested—those people at home who are interested and those members who are newer to the House—that this is the way it is done and it is done by Governments of both colour like it or not. 
Another point that is interesting that was made by David Clark was around culture. Whether we want to accept it or not we have got a horrible culture of binge drinking in this country. It sticks to us like it does to the Aussies like it does to the North Americans and like it does to the Poms. But to try to overlay then another European culture’s approach to alcohol such as the Germans’ for instance and expect that that would be picked up would be exactly the same mistake that this Parliament made in the 1990s when it decided that we were all going to start drinking like the French like a friend of Mr Hague over there mentioned. I have some personal experience of this too. I have shared our house for the last year with my daughter-in-law who is a Slovakian who for some reason when she is making a coffee in the morning would put a slug of alcohol in it much to my astonishment. That was the way they did it. At the same time at 10 o’clock in the morning she might ask whether anyone else wants a beer. Well it was not even lunchtime. It was abhorrent to be drinking beer before lunchtime if you have just cut up a cord of wood as I am sure Mr Chair would attest to. In any event that is part of the culture. Having said that I would offer her a glass of wine at night and she would sit on it for 3 hours. It happens to be the culture of the way some countries drink. So to try to overlay those cultures into our culture is something that is totally different and we cannot do that in this country. 
We must remember in considering these Supplementary Order Papers that the biggest encourager in respect of drinking alcohol is personal role modelling that we do within our own homes and within our own environments and we should not try to walk away from that responsibility. 
In respect of Supplementary Order Paper 91 introduced by Mr Lees-Galloway which talks about banning billboards and poster advertisements within 300 metres of certain locations creating a new watershed time for alcohol advertising banning alcohol advertising in cinemas etc. it is important to note that the Government has already agreed to establish an expert forum to consider further restrictions on alcohol advertising and sponsorship. Whereas we know that during the course of the select committee debates on both bills that were considered in the last term of Government there was a significant push against alcohol advertising and alcohol sponsorship it is also important to recognise that the evidence we were confronted with was also countered by others as well. I believe that it is an important thing for us to establish our own forum to report back initially within 12 months to have a look at how alcohol advertising influences the way people drink and their purchase behaviours in this country rather than overseas. What we know for instance within this country in respect of the rapid take-up of technology is that although there may still be advertising on our television screens at regular and frequent intervals after certain times people are watching less and less advertising as we have the ability to screen past it. 
In respect of Supplementary Order Paper 115 from Dr David Clark the Government will not support this Supplementary Order Paper because as mentioned the Government is setting up its own expert forum on alcohol advertising and sponsorship and it will consider whether further restrictions are needed to reduce alcohol-related harm. The forum will be established after the bill is passed and it will report back to the Minister of Health within a year. 
In respect of Supplementary Order Paper 81 from Te Ururoa Flavell the Government does not recommend supporting this proposal because there is little research about the effectiveness of these restrictions at reducing alcohol-related harm. Most of us would— 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Oh come on! 
Hon Nathan Guy 
: Ka pai bro. 
Hon CHESTER BORROWS 
: —give him a smack—agree that the advertising we see in respect of alcohol is ludicrous. We wonder how it can possibly be affected. But the point that he made quite well in his speech was that the alcohol companies would not be spending $150 million a year if it was not making some difference. However they tend to do that as they continually make the point that they are trying to establish a brand as opposed to starting people drinking. Well none of us are too sucked in by that. However I return to the fact that this Government wants to be able to have a look at its own research and create its own response to that. 
The member’s Supplementary Order Paper would also have a significant consequence for many clubs and organisations which would lose income. The responsibility for making transitional funding— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: We’ve heard all this before. Benson and Hedges Rothmans—they all ran this argument every single one of them. 
Hon CHESTER BORROWS 
: —will be very expensive to a Government at a time when there is not a lot of money about. I do not know whether the member interjecting would even concede that bearing in mind that a lot of that money is going to parts of her electorate. 
These restrictions would be premature ahead of recommendations from the expert forum and that will be established after the passing of this bill. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I want to respond to a number of the issues that the Associate Minister of Justice Chester Borrows has raised. First of all I want to remind him that the legislation that was introduced by the Labour Government in 2008 the Sale and Supply of Liquor and Liquor Enforcement Bill was a baseline bill. It was the bill that contained the baseline for the changes that we were going to implement to be supplemented with a substantial root and branch exercise—actually to be done by the Law Commission at the same time. In fact I announced the Law Commission review—the referral to the Law Commission that my colleague Annette King was responsible for as the Minister of Justice—on the same day that I lodged that bill. That bill and the Law Commission report were hand in hand and designed for the urgent stuff to be got on with. One of the urgent things that was to be got on with was the introduction of local alcohol plans to give local communities an opportunity to have a say about what was happening in their own neighbourhoods. That was a direct response to the demands from communities throughout New Zealand who were sick and tired of so many licences being issued regardless of the situation that they were in. 
I think it is a bit unfair to describe this bill as something that had just been replaced by the Government as something that Governments always do. This bill was designed to be introduced as baseline legislation. In fact the National Government had the first reading after its 100 days of action where it referred it to the Justice and Electoral Committee. It did not tell all of the people who submitted on that bill that their submission was going to be a complete and utter waste of time because it was going to discharge the bill once it was reported back to the House. I actually do not believe that the Government intended to do that until after it got the Law Commission report. There were two things that Minister Borrows did not point out. One was that we required the Law Commission to write a bill. We always said to the Law Commission that not only did we want it to come back with the evidence that we need to make real law in this area and respond to the real issues but also we wanted it to come back with a bill. We would introduce that bill to Parliament we would let the evidence speak for itself and then we would have submissions on the bill that the Law Commission wrote. We had committed to that. And what did National do when it become Government? It thought it would just truncate the time that the select committee had for reporting back which meant that the Law Commission would not have time to write that bill. 
When the Government actually saw what the Law Commission had recommended in its substantial report  
Alcohol in our Lives: Curbing the Harm 
 I believe that the problem that arose at that point for the Government was that it did not want a bar of many of the recommendations to be going before the House. So what it did was it made sure that a number of the amendments would be outside the scope of the bill and it also made sure that the bill that we had introduced would have no further truck at all. So it discharged the bill in December 2010 just after referring this bill the Alcohol Reform Bill to the select committee on 11 November 2010. In November the Government introduced its own bill to replace a bill that was coming back from the select committee after it had heard all of the submissions after it had put all of that effort into it. No it was not going to be; the Government had simply decided that the bill was going to be discharged. So I think that the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth is something that ought to be spoken of in this regard and I believe that there has been really an unfair representation of how we have got to the situation that we are in today. 
To criticise my colleague for his views on the conscience issue when we honestly believed that the Government was committed to introducing a second bill—not to replace the bill that all of the submissions had been heard on—that did not contain the major recommendations of the Law Commission well I think that that is not an accurate reflection of the position that we have ever had on it. I was the first person who raised the question of the conscience vote disappearing and I believe that we should ultimately have the position where we are able to take principled positions on legislation based on the evidence—I really like evidence-based policies in these areas—but sometimes these are really hard issues and the reason that I raised the conscience vote in 2008 was because it was an election year. People do not have the courage to face up to some of these really hard issues in an election year and I am not going to comment on the “why for” it is simply a matter of fact that we cannot get real change in these fundamental areas in an election year for that reason. 
I want to talk about the advertising sponsorship and promotion of alcohol in the context of chapter 19 of the substantial report of the Law Commission. I want to remind the Committee that the Law Commission when it had put out its original issues paper had taken the view that the existing system of self regulation was generally sufficient and it said that it proposed leaving the bulk of alcohol advertising regulation to the Advertising Standards Authority. I remember when that change was made and I remember who was in Government when that change was made because I was here and I saw the unfortunate correlation of two portfolios in one person. The Minister of Broadcasting was the Associate Minister of Health and that was the Hon Maurice Williamson who unfortunately I think was enamoured of some of the advertising that he had seen in Australia which apparently was very funny advertising very humorous. He felt that it was not fair that in New Zealand those who were promoting those products were not able to advertise these products in such a cheerful and positive way. So the law was changed to remove it from the broadcasting standards area into the Advertising Standards Authority—an industry-based body with the responsibility for regulating brand advertising. 
The Law Commission listened to the submissions. I think members in this Committee should realise just what they are doing in voting against these Supplementary Order Papers. Almost every submitter had something to say about advertising and sponsorship. Out of 2939 submissions 2281 commented on the policy options about advertising and marketing. Of the 2281 submissions 86 percent supported banning or restricting all advertising of all alcohol in all media. That is how the people feel about it. That is how people want us to respond as a Parliament. The reason that it is hard for us to respond to this issue is because of who pays for the advertising who benefits from the payment of the advertising and what other elements that might affect the work that we do in this Parliament have to do with that i.e. the media have a lot of influence in terms of public opinion over politicians and politics generally and obviously they stand to benefit from the advertising dollar. There is a multiple layer of effect that actually prevents this Committee doing the courageous thing that in this case is the right thing which is to find a way of reducing the amount of alcohol advertising in our country. The Law Commission said to do it over a period of time and that will be OK and these Supplementary Order Papers that are before the Committee also say to do it over a period of time. 
I have made submissions to the Advertising Standards Authority on the alcohol code of practice over the years since I have been in politics—obviously not when I was a Minister as I did not have a relevant portfolio but when I was an MP in the early 1990s I submitted twice to that body. On both occasions I supported a complete prohibition on the television broadcast advertising of alcohol. Often the point was made “But that’s freedom of speech. It comes under the Bill of Rights Act. We have got the freedom to speak on these matters.” and my argument was that sometimes it is better not to have things promoted in a way that undermines a health promotion message. 
Hon ANNETTE KING (Labour—Rongotai) 
: 
 I am sure my colleague who has just resumed her seat Lianne Dalziel will continue this debate because she has probably more knowledge on this issue than any other member in this House and feels very passionately about it. I would like to continue from where Lianne Dalziel left off and that is in terms of having a principled position on alcohol in New Zealand. I am absolutely amazed that the members opposite are not participating in this debate. This is the first big opportunity we have had in over 12 years to debate an issue of major importance to New Zealand but they sit with their heads down and are not prepared to get up even if it is to disagree and at least participate in a major issue of importance to New Zealanders. New Zealanders have made it clear that they do believe it is an issue. As a former Minister of Police I have never forgotten the police coming to me and saying that in just over 70 percent of crimes there is an alcohol component. We have members opposite who stand up and talk about law and order but are not prepared to address one of the key issues related to crime and that is the control of the sale and purchase of alcohol. 
I notice that the Minister in the chair the Associate Minister of Justice said that the Government wants to look at its own research. Well I say Minister that I am in favour of looking at your own research but look at the research that was provided to the Government by the most comprehensive work that has been done in many years—the Law Commission report of 2010. It is an absolutely amazing piece of work where the commission went out and spoke to the people in a way that a select committee cannot do in the brief time that it has to hear submissions. You heard from Lianne Dalziel that the people said overwhelmingly that they wanted a ban or restriction on alcohol advertising. Does that count for anything? Do the over 2281 submissions 86 percent of which supported a ban on advertising and restrictions on advertising count for anything to the members opposite? Do the members opposite think it is even worthwhile making a submission on an important piece of work like the Law Commission’s or even to a select committee for that matter if it does not count for anything? So I say to the Minister yes look at the research. Plenty of it was offered in the Law Commission’s report but it seems to me that in this area it has been ignored and continues to be ignored. 
I am going to support the amendment from my colleague Dr David Clark Supplementary Order Paper 115. This is not some piece of amendment that he has got from a German model. This is based on the restriction and banning of the advertising of tobacco. We know that since 1990 when the Smoke-free Environments Act was brought in with a ban on advertising in combination with a number of other public health programmes and education we have seen a drop in tobacco consumption. We have seen the number of people smoking reduce considerably and we have had members opposite proudly saying “Look how the smoking rates have dropped in New Zealand.” That came from a menu of things including a ban on advertising. So why can members support it for tobacco which is another dangerous product if it is not handled properly—in fact probably with tobacco none of it can be handled properly—and why can they see that it is OK for tobacco but they cannot see it for alcohol? It just does not make sense to me. 
And we know the power of advertising. Why else do they advertise? I find it fascinating that we have got the British American Tobacco company advertising on television at the moment in a very discreet way against plain packaging of tobacco and this week they started on alcohol. They are using an advert that I think is just a scare tactic to say to the public “They’re coming for alcohol next. Look out. You don’t know what’s going to happen to your alcohol.” You see they know that the public are influenced by advertising and particularly young people. We ought to have the courage to make some decisions for the benefit of New Zealanders and young New Zealanders. So will members opposite get on their feet and debate this issue or are they just going to sit as if they have been muzzled as if they do not care about what is a massive debate that we ought to be having? 
I do not believe in a conscience vote on alcohol. I think we are gutless in this Parliament because this is not a conscience issue. This is a public health issue. This is an issue that affects New Zealanders. This is an issue that affects the health of our young people. This is an issue that costs this country millions of dollars a year not because everybody abuses alcohol but because there are enough people who are affected by alcohol even when they are not abusing it because alcohol is a substance that affects the body. This is a public health issue. When are we going to have the courage and the guts in this place to say that this an issue we treat as a Parliament? 
What we have got now is a dog’s breakfast. This bill the Alcohol Reform Bill is a dog’s breakfast. At least if we had picked up the Law Commission and allowed it to write the legislation we could have gone out and debated it and made the change as a sensible Parliament. But what we have got now is a whole lot of amendments as people try to fix up a bill that does not do what it ought to do. I am really disappointed that we as a Parliament have not taken this opportunity. We will not get the opportunity to follow a big report like the Law Commission’s one for many many years to come. We are squandering that opportunity because we do not have the courage in this Parliament to make the decisions that we ought to. I just think if members have got a conscience at all on this issue at least vote for some changes that are going to strengthen the bill that is there and maybe make a difference for young New Zealanders in particular. But I fear that that will not happen. 
DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First) 
: 
 First of all I would like to acknowledge the three members who proposed these particular Supplementary Order Papers. I think they are all worth considering and I thank them for the efforts they have put into it. I would also like to acknowledge the Government for its willingness to further examine with an expert panel the law regarding the advertising of alcohol. However New Zealand First does want to see some advertising restriction but we think it must be reasonable it must be practical and it must be effective. So for those reasons we would oppose Supplementary Order Paper 81 regarding advertising and sponsorship and also Supplementary Order Paper 115 relating to TV advertising both of which we see as being too extreme. We would support however Iain Lees-Galloway’s “small measures” proposals in Supplementary Order Paper 91. 
Dealing first with Supplementary Order Paper 81 general advertising prohibitions are not appropriate and that is what it is with four relatively minor exemptions: one relating to price lists another relating to adverts in media from overseas a third one to advertisements in magazines for employees of manufacturers only and another exemption relating to material in museums and art galleries and videos that sort of thing. So apart from that it is a pretty extreme measure in prohibiting advertising at all for alcohol and that is not appropriate. The amendment to prohibit advertising of alcohol in that way is misdirected because it misses the point. It is not about no use of alcohol and it is probably not even about an overall reduction in alcohol; it is specifically about the misuse of alcohol. 
I would have to disagree with those speakers who try to use smoking and tobacco as a comparison because alcohol is not inherently dangerous. It is potentially dangerous if misused whereas tobacco is inherently dangerous no matter how little smoking one does. So I do not see that there is a good comparison between those. 
There is no clear connection between appropriate advertising and the abuse of alcohol. One other speaker adverted to the fact that there is in fact very little evidence to connect the two and we would need to do a great deal more research to know whether more advertising would cause more harm or indeed whether a general prohibition on the advertising of alcohol would actually have much effect at all. 
The restriction on the use of trademarks is another provision that seems inappropriate. That will have very little positive effect unduly restrict commercial interests and would damage unnecessarily commercial operations especially for example wineries. The advertising of wine does not seem to me to be necessarily an encouragement of the consumption of alcohol or the abuse of alcohol. Trademark restrictions are not practical they are not effective and they are not necessary. New Zealand First does accept that some control on sponsorship by alcohol interests is appropriate but not this general prohibition on it. And we do take notice of the fact that such a prohibition would damage the ability of clubs and non-profit organisations to earn income without any correlative worthwhile benefit. 
But New Zealand First does accept that some additional advertising restriction is necessary. So we looked at Supplementary Order Paper 91 and we saw in that some significantly more modest provisions that are capable of support. The first of those relates to the publishing of alcohol products and advertising on posters and billboards within 300 metres of any school or early childhood centre. That seems to us to be perfectly acceptable. Similarly no person may broadcast or arrange for anyone else to do so any alcohol product advertisement before 9 p.m. You can see the logic of that. Young children are not likely to see advertisements after that but are likely to see them before that time of day. And thirdly that no person should screen any advertisement concerning alcohol unless all films screened have been classified by the Office of Film and Literature Classification as restricted to audiences of 18 years and over. So similarly that is a modest provision that is targeted at the protection of children. It is practical it is effective it is not a great imposition on those who wish to advertise alcohol and it is a modest and acceptable provision we feel. Those are the sorts of provisions that New Zealand First does accept as being appropriate and as being effective but not so extreme that they are unnecessary in terms of a general prohibition. We would support those sorts of provisions. 
We also do not support a general prohibition of television advertising for the same reasons: too extreme unnecessary not well targeted and without any real information being provided that it would make any difference at all. The cost-benefit ratio or the benefit to avoiding alcohol abuse is not demonstrated. For those reasons the proposal should not be supported. 
New Zealand First therefore does want to see the investigation that the Government proposes with its expert panel. We want to see the results of that. In the meantime we feel that those modest provisions proposed by Iain Lees-Galloway should proceed but the general prohibitions are not appropriate are not demonstrated to be effective and should not be supported. 
Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I rise to respond mainly to a couple of comments made by the Minister in the chair the Associate Minister of Justice which I want to debate a little. He challenged a view that he suggested I was taking that the German cultural system be overlaid in the New Zealand situation in respect of our understanding of alcohol. 
I just want to be clear in my intention in speaking of the German situation in respect of alcohol. They have a drinking age that is much younger and a culture that reflects an understanding of alcohol as a social lubricant in a similar way to us but with an understanding that those who experiment are much younger and therefore experimentation with alcohol is considered a more juvenile thing whereas in New Zealand it is often associated with adulthood which has its own complications. In raising that whole issue I was really wanting to say that there are other ways of having a culture around alcohol. 
I was not wishing to suggest that we should adopt wholeheartedly the German situation nor that ours in its own way is completely faulty either. What I was wishing to suggest was that there are other ways of conceptualising alcohol culture and that we have in this legislation the Alcohol Reform Bill an opportunity to actually make a measurable difference in our own society and in the culture around alcohol through pulling the levers that are at our disposal as recommended by the Law Commission in its report. Those levers that are most effective according to the Law Commission report are the levers around price and marketing. Those are precisely the levers that this Government is refusing to go near. 
My Supplementary Order Paper 115 aims to address the issue of marketing. It deliberately sets out—modelled on the tobacco legislation—to ensure that new advertising is not created to entice people to drink alcohol who would not otherwise be drinking alcohol recognising that there are harms associated with alcohol. When the research is looked at that is pretty evident to anybody who looks at it with a dispassionate eye. It is not something that needs to be encouraged. It is part of our culture and not all aspects of alcohol are bad for our culture in my view. 
I want to suggest that we could however make a measurable difference as suggested by the science through adopting some of the more sensible Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward. There are three that have been put forward in this area: my one Supplementary Order Paper 81 by Te Ururoa Flavell and Supplementary Order Paper 91 by Iain Lees-Galloway. These three make some steps in that area. They would make a measurable difference to the culture of alcohol in New Zealand over time when alcohol ceases to be glamorised in the way that it is currently. That is worth doing. I do not see how the Minister could argue otherwise. 
The other point that the Minister in the chair made as I understand it was that the Law Commission had recommended in one of its reports that voting in respect of alcohol issues be along party lines. That might very well be true if the legislation that was put before the House was in line with what the Law Commission was recommending. I contend that the law that has been proposed to the House to adopt is not along the lines of what the Law Commission was recommending in all aspects. 
Some aspects—and I concede that there are some useful aspects and that is why I will be supporting the legislation—address issues of distribution which are usefully addressed and do make a difference according to the evidence. But other major changes that could be made to effect positive change in our alcohol culture are not being considered. Instead we are being railroaded primarily into a debate on age which in my view is largely a sideshow. Changing the age does make a difference. The evidence suggests that changing the age is like starting to bail out a bucket with a teaspoon but that is still a change and over time it does make a difference. 
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that pulling these bigger levers does make a difference. The distribution lever which the Government is pulling will make a difference. Our local councils support the particular change that is proposed because they have examples where that particular lever has not been available to them and they would have liked it to be. It could have made positive change in our community in Dunedin. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 I want to follow on from those thoughtful remarks from Dr Clark and perhaps make an initial point that what he is saying about culture is very interesting. What we know about culture is that culture changes over time so it is entirely relevant to draw examples from other cultures about how we could aspire for our culture to be. 
I want to pick up on the remarks made by the Minister in the chair the Associate Minister of Justice and to cite the World Health Organization—in particular its comment that “Exposure of young people to alcohol marketing speeds up the onset of drinking and increases the amount consumed by those already drinking.” There is no question at all that alcohol advertising and sponsorship works. It gets people drinking earlier and actually increases the amount that they drink. In particular it increases the amount drunk by those who are already heavy drinkers. In other words it fuels the binge drinking culture that we have now. And it is interesting to me that the Government is placing the entirety of its defence of what is currently in the Alcohol Reform Bill on the shoulders of Chester Borrows and that none of the other members of the Government—some of whom were lions in the debate on the age provisions—seem to have anything at all to say about this issue despite the fact that there is considerably more evidence about the effectiveness of the measures that are promoted in the Supplementary Order Papers on this particular issue than there was around age. 
The Hon Chester Borrows talked about the Government’s wish to have New Zealand research and said that is why it was not moving on this right now. I found that a little surprising because there is a wealth of New Zealand evidence available to the Government on this point already. I will cite just a few examples of that. For example penetration of alcohol advertising to minors was illustrated by research on the Chin Heads ad. Some members of the House will remember the Chin Heads ad and I see people nodding around the Chamber. Indeed that is evidence of the pervasiveness of that advertising. Research showed that 97 percent of minors recalled the Chin Head advertisements 71 percent of those young people—those minors—knew that the ad was for Lion Red 92 percent had positive views about the ads and 64 percent thought the Chin Head humour would appeal to minors and indeed that is whom it was aimed at. So that is a piece of New Zealand research that we already have. For me that is evidence enough to move. 
In another piece of research New Zealand boys aged between 10 and 13 said that they knew more about drinking from watching ads but none of that alcohol advertising of course depicted any of the harms. The 10 to 17-year-old New Zealanders who recalled the most alcohol ads were more likely to think that it was OK for kids their age to get drunk to think that their friends drank frequently and consequently to drink more themselves. Again that is New Zealand research on the impact of advertising and sponsorship. 
 The highly internationally respected Dunedin multidisciplinary study found an impact and response to advertising on later consumption. Numbers of alcohol ads recalled at age 15 in response to a question about the portrayal of alcohol in the media significantly predicted heavier drinking among males at the age of 18. Those who responded positively to alcohol advertising at the age of 18 were heavier drinkers and reported more alcohol-related aggression at the age of 21. By the age of 26 the amounts drunk but not the frequency of drinking had declined for most of these young people. Those who had responded most positively to alcohol advertising at the age of 18 were the most frequent drinkers at the age of 26. 
I could go on. There is no shortage of New Zealand research on the impact of advertising and sponsorship from the alcohol industry on problem drinking. The jury is absolutely in; it is simply that this Government is choosing not to respond to that evidence. The evidence is there. If the Government was seriously interested in doing what the object of this bill was which is to minimise harm it would be taking the steps advocated by the commission. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 I listened earlier to the remarks of the Minister in the chair the Associate Minister of Justice about the discussion in the Justice and Electoral Committee concerning the way in which votes were likely to occur on this issue. I am not sure that we share a recollection of the way in which that discussion proceeded. That is probably the fairest way to put it. In saying that I will repeat what I have said on earlier occasions. I pay tribute to the way in which the Minister—then the member—did chair the committee. It was a courteous exercise in which all submitters were heard I think carefully. But I think it is important that we do not make assumptions on the basis of discussions in the committee as to how the Committee of the whole House ought to act. I certainly repeat my earlier plea to National Party members to think about these Supplementary Order Papers on their merits. 
The evidence as I said at the select committee was overwhelming from all players other than those directly representing the industry. There was a real desire to see controls around the advertising the pricing and the availability of alcohol. What I want to do if I may is just take the Committee of the whole House through what we know is the advice that the Government received from the officials concerning each of the Supplementary Order Papers and discuss that advice starting with what I think is the excellent and far-sighted Supplementary Order Paper 81 from the Maori Party member Te Ururoa Flavell. 
The first thing that his Supplementary Order Paper would do would be to bring in a prohibition on advertising of alcohol products and alcohol sponsorship and introduce an offence for breaching advertising and sponsorship restrictions. The officials—and we know this because the Minister circulated this advice to every member of Parliament—gave advice that that part of the Supplementary Order Paper should not be supported. The advice conceded that there was strong public support for a complete ban but little research regarding its effectiveness and said that some evidence suggests that a complete ban could have a modest effect on drinking by young people. Well I would say particularly to those members who were emphatic in their support for either a split purchase age or a uniform age of 20 that even a modest decrease in youth drinking surely in your view members would be a good thing. I would ask that on the basis of the official advice those of you who did vote for other than a uniform age of 18 look again at this Supplementary Order Paper. Even the advice received from the officials indicates that it would go some way to achieving the aims that you were so keen to see at an earlier stage of this debate. 
There is also some concern expressed around transitional funding—the same sorts of concerns that were expressed at the time that the Health Sponsorship Council had to look at replacement advertising and funding for tobacco. But that was something this Parliament showed it had the ability to deal with and overcome. I am confident that we would be able to rise to the same challenge on this occasion if there were a will from the Government and the Minister of Finance to look carefully at this issue. 
Finally there is the response that the Government has already agreed to establish an expert forum to consider further restrictions on alcohol advertising and sponsorship to reduce alcohol-related harm. There is the advice that the forum will be set up once the bill is passed and is due to report back to the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Health within a year. Well the question has to be on that point how long do we want to wait. We have got the opportunity now to legislate and to deal with these problems. Why would we kick something off to yet another so-called expert committee when as the previous speaker Kevin Hague noted there is actually sufficient evidence before the House for us to act now? 
The second part of the Supplementary Order Paper is new clause 35B which would establish a sinking lid on off-licence premises where 85 percent of the annual sales revenue is expected to come from alcohol sales unless the premise is replacing another identical or larger premise in the same territorial authority—termed a relocation—and the premise is not located within a 5-kilometre radius of any existing bottle stores. The advice here concedes that there is a definite link between outlet density and alcohol-related harm and notes that reducing density would therefore reduce alcohol-related harm. Again that is a good reason to look at the Supplementary Order Paper on its merits. The advice goes on to note that local alcohol policies something that we will deal with in debate on a later part can limit the density of licences without contravening certain other— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! That is Part 3. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: I am aware of that but I am dealing with the officials’ advice on this Supplementary Order Paper and one of the components of the advice is that it should not be supported because the local alcohol policies which we deal with in a later part deal with the issue. So I would appreciate it if you would just let me complete the point. 
The problem of course with that part of the advice is that the local alcohol policies which we will come to deal with later are not mandatory. So they might well provide a mechanism to deal with the explosion of liquor outlets that we have seen since 1989 but the trouble is many local authorities simply will not operate them because they are not required to—at least in terms of the legislation as it stands. 
Then Te Ururoa Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper would add a power to the bill to introduce a minimum price per unit of alcohol sold on licensed premises and would introduce an offence of the sale of alcohol at below minimum price. Basically the advisers say to the Minister and thence to MPs: “Well that is premature because the Government is already investigating a minimum pricing regime for alcohol.” 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! That is definitely Part 3. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: I am aware of that but as I said what I am doing—with respect—is running through the advice from the officials which the Minister has published to members of Parliament as to why this Supplementary Order Paper should be opposed. What I am inviting members to do is look at that advice and consider why it should not be taken on board. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Well we have got—with all respect to the member—three amendments under new Part 2A and new Part 7 and that is really what I ask the member to come back to. Tie in what you are saying but we are really concentrating on those. What you are saying is fine but all that should be covered in debate on Part 3. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: Clause 44 on the Supplementary Order Paper would change the national minimum trading hours to 10 a.m. to 3 a.m. with a compulsory one-way door from 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. for premises that have an on-licence or a club licence and 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. for off-licences. Again the advice that is received—this is in Te Ururoa Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper 81. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I understand that it is in his Supplementary Order Paper. What you are saying is correct—it is in the Supplementary Order Paper—but we are not dealing with that part which is in Part 3. We are dealing only with what is in new Part 2A and new Part 7. So if you could just— 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: In that case what I will do is I will move to the other two excellent Supplementary Order Papers that are before the Committee in this part of the debate—that of Iain Lees-Galloway and that of Dr David Clark. Supplementary Order Paper 91 would insert a new Part 2A banning billboard and poster advertising within 300 metres of schools and early childhood centres creating a 9 p.m. watershed for alcohol advertising on TV and banning alcohol advertising in cinemas and public screenings for all films that are not rated R18. The advice again is not to support that because there is this expert forum that is going to be convened and it is premature to move in that area. Again I would simply say what I said in respect of the earlier part and the earlier Supplementary Order Paper: we have the evidence about the harm we need not wait this is the opportunity to legislate and we should proceed. 
Finally Supplementary Order Paper 115 from my colleague Dr David Clark would add restrictions on the advertising of alcohol on television and also on radio. Again the officials say there is strong public support for a complete ban but little research regarding its effectiveness and some evidence suggests that a complete ban could have a modest effect on drinking by young people. So the same point arises as in respect of the first part of Te Ururoa Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper 81: if we can as the officials concede have some effect on drinking particularly by young people—irresponsible drinking—we ought to take it. This is the opportunity that we have. There is no benefit in further delay. We have heard the strong public urging that we ought to legislate more strongly in these areas. Here is an example of strong legislation that could make a real difference. And then there is the chestnut around the expert forum. Well again I think that has been comprehensively dealt with in the debate. 
These are three excellent Supplementary Order Papers. They do tighten up on advertising and on availability and they do deserve careful consideration and certainly in my view support by the Committee. 
ANDREW LITTLE (Labour) 
: 
 I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on the Alcohol Reform Bill. There is no question as many of those who have contributed to the debate so far today have acknowledged that alcohol has become—if indeed it has ever ceased to be—a most insidious influence on society and in our community. Part of the problem as we have all acknowledged is that we continue to debate alcohol law reform as if it were a moral issue or as if it were something other than what it actually is which is a health issue. Alcohol is a drug. It is a drug that has won considerable social acceptance over decades—indeed centuries—so we confer upon it a status that we would not give any other comparable substance. And indeed we eschew other substances that have as much of if not a greater impact as alcohol. So we debate this in a funny context and at a difficult time. 
Perhaps the other thing that has happened more so in the last 20 years than prior to that is the considerable financial stake that many businesses and individuals now have in the peddling of this particular drug under the cover of it being socially acceptable. In that respect the Supplementary Order Papers that go to new Part 2A particularly Supplementary Order Paper 91 from Iain Lees-Galloway and Supplementary Order Paper 115 from my other colleague Dr David Clark provide restrictions on the marketing of alcohol that are in my submission absolutely critical. If we are serious about alcohol sale and distribution and we wish to do something that is meaningfully going to address the serious problems that all the evidence tells us now prevail—the problem of a growing number an excessive number of people turning up at our emergency departments every weekend seeking care and help because of their alcohol-related and alcohol-inflicted wounds; because of the number of young people who are falling prey to the blandishments of alcohol and brewing companies and suffering the health effects as a consequence and not just young people but the older people who continue or who have embarked on habits that are causing major health effects and other costs in the health system. If we are serious about addressing those and accepting those as a social problem then it is incumbent on this Parliament to regulate appropriately and accordingly. 
When it comes to marketing and advertising this Parliament can provide leadership can discharge its responsibilities as a tribunal of the people and can do something meaningful about it. That does mean confronting some of those large and wealthy vested interests and saying that we do not wish to continue the social problems that prevail and that we do not wish to decline to do something in the face of something we know we can do something about. Regulating the advertising and the marketing is a response that this Parliament can make that will confront the vested interests and it is vital if we are going to address and meet those public health demands that are on us. 
Te Ururoa Flavell’s Supplementary Order Paper 81 and his proposed amendment which is the ban to take effect in 2 years is a very harsh initiative. That is a very harsh initiative. The sad reality as he points out in his own explanatory note is that there are many sports clubs and similar organisations that have become dependent on the support they get from the brewing companies and other marketers of alcohol if not for their survival then to at least provide them with a source of support and finance that enables them to function in the way that they do. It would be most desirable in my submission to remove alcohol and alcohol branding and marketing from sports activities and sports functions but at the moment we need to focus on those things that are achievable and possible and credible. For those reasons I will be supporting the Supplementary Order Papers of my colleagues Mr Lees-Galloway and Dr Clark because they focus on the very immediate and very insidious advertising and reach that the alcohol companies currently engage in. They have an obvious target and it is the young. The style of the advertising is so often clearly aimed at those who are on the precipice of making or those who are just starting to make their decisions and choices about alcohol. 
There is no matching or corresponding advertising—public-good advertising you might say—about the deleterious effects of alcohol apart from perhaps on the traffic front. Certainly our Ministry of Transport has spent a large amount of money on the drink-driving issue. But in terms of providing that information that enables particularly young people embarking on their life habits including habits around the consumption of alcohol there is no social-good advertising that informs people or educates people about making an informed choice about the consumption of alcohol—about the impact for example of the hard liquors; about the impact of volumes of alcohol and the impact that they can have; and about the long-term consequences on the organs of the body. So I think that in that context and knowing the vast sums of money that get spent to pitch to young people—and to other sectors of the community too but predominantly to young people which is why they get into the sports clubs and the sports activities—that calls out for a responsible approach from this Parliament. 
That should be underscored by the very call that members of the public have been making that submitters to the bill made and indeed members in the last few hours this afternoon have been making for this Parliament to do something meaningful and therefore substantial. The “frilly bits” approach that has been taken by the bill to date is clearly not intended on the face of the bill to date to have any meaningful impact at all. If it is intended to the reality is that the legislation as it currently stands and without the sorts of amendments that we are currently debating is not going to have any impact. So I simply record my views and my intentions in this regard. I do so because I consider like all of us that I am responsible in my representation role and in discharging my responsibilities as a member of this Parliament. Knowing the social ill that now sits at the feet of the alcohol industry we are called upon to respond and to react and to provide proper and meaningful regulation of this part of this industry without depriving those who can consume responsibly and all the injunctions we get about that. These types of measures that are provided for in these two Supplementary Order Papers are crucial and necessary. I will be supporting those. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I do want to take another call because there have been a number of comments made that I wish to respond to but I also want to pick up where I left off in respect of the public health message that we want to have here. I was making the point that in some jurisdictions there have been cases taken where big tobacco have argued that they have the right to advertise under the Bill of Rights freedom of expression because advertising a legal product is a matter of freedom of speech. Well I reject that because I think there are times when freedoms have to be subservient to the greater public good and the public good is what health promotion is all about. I used the example of the manufacturers of a perfectly legal product which is baby bottles. Baby bottle manufacturers and their suppliers have taken a deliberate decision not to advertise their products on television not because their product is illegal but because their product undermines the public health message which is to promote breastfeeding. That is the only reason they do not advertise on television. It is not something they have to do; it is something they choose to do because they are behaving in a responsible way. I believe that with regard to all organisations that are involved in the sale and supply of a product that causes significant cost to the country let alone the human cost on top of the financial cost there is a responsibility to take a responsible attitude towards it. 
I have made the point that this is something that the public of New Zealand want but I think we should remember a few things about the alcohol industry. One is that it spends millions of dollars annually on alcohol advertising. I just want to quote from a couple of the submissions to the Law Commission report: “The ads promote alcohol consumption and associate drinking with having fun partying confidence success sophistication and desirability. The ads normalise drinking and sustain our current drinking culture.” and “[The aggressive marketing] of alcohol is a huge driver of the heavy drinking culture with its clever and sometimes witty advertising creating a false impression and seek[ing] to promote the sale of alcohol whilst totally ignoring the dangers of this drug … the advertising of alcohol should be severely reduced in NZ and it should not be allowed without a warning regarding the dangers.” 
Those examples go on but here is the response from the producers the retailers the broadcasters and the people involved in regulation: “The purpose of liquor advertising is to influence brand choice not to increase per occasion or total consumption.” We just saw a young man miss out on a trip to the UK that he had won as a result of the multiple entries into a competition that he applied for on the basis that the more often he applied for it the better his chances were of being drawn. Hey guess what? He was drawn but they would not give him the prize. Actually I agree with them for not giving him the prize. They should have actually been quite up front from the start and said “If you have been convicted of an alcohol-related offence then you are not the sort of person that we are going to give this trip to.” because of course it involved buying alcohol. To advertise a prize on the basis that the more you buy the more likely you are to get a prize—I mean how is that a responsible campaign? How is that just about brand consumption? 
In the report the producers the retailers the broadcasters and the people involved in regulation said: “This is no different to the advertising of say shampoo”—well yes alcohol and shampoo; I can see an immediate similarity—“where the objective of the advertising is not to encourage people to wash their hair more often but rather to choose one brand over another …”. They said: “We have no commercial interest in marketing our products to people who are not legally able to buy them—ie people under 18 years old.” Well I just want to use an alcohol advertising slogan to respond to that and say “Yeah right!”. I mean if you look at the ads on TV they are marketing to a younger culture all the time. That is what the ads are about. They are supposedly ads that are minimising the risks that alcohol is involved in. Actually I was just thinking of the— 
Dr CAM CALDER (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I just wanted to mention a particular brand of alcohol and now I cannot remember the name of it but it comes in a can and it is something to do with Woodstock. The advertisement talks about whether it is OK if your friend’s mother gives you a “woody”. Am I getting this right? And are we all actually slightly revolted by what I just said? Because there is an implication of sexuality around that which it is designed to do. The advertisement stops and everything is freeze-framed in order to make the point that this is OK to have on our televisions. But it is OK; that has got through the self-regulatory thing. 
They said in the report: “We never encourage rapid excessive or irresponsible consumption in any of our marketing or promotions …”. Well I am sorry but whenever one looks at the advertising that is on television we see those very direct linkages to sexuality to good times and actually to not being able to have a good time without having alcohol involved. I think all of us have at different times got ourselves involved in the FebFast campaign where we take a month off from drinking. Some have not done that but— 
Charles Chauvel 
: Unpatriotic! 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Some think it is unpatriotic—that is fine—but I have certainly done that and I know that others in the House have done that as well. But what struck me the first time I got involved in that campaign was the number of occasions where I said “I’m not drinking this month.” and the people who said “Well have one anyway.” or “We’ll buy you a night off.” when they realised that there was a buy-out provision in the campaign. I just think we have got ourselves into a habit of drinking on all sorts of occasions when in fact it is not necessary in order to achieve the purposes of the occasion. 
I think this link between drinking and advertising and sponsorship is compelling particularly with regard to young people. That was the finding of the Law Commission. It has looked at the evidence. I do not think the jury is still out on this. I think there are indeed some self-interested people in the industry and that is not just the liquor industry. People have to remember that it is the advertisers and it is the media that are dependent on the alcohol advertising dollar that will in fact try to push public opinion in a particular way. But no matter how much they push it the public want to see change and I do not know how anyone in this Committee can vote against some of the amendments that we are considering here today. All of them pick up a gradual move towards change that the public have been demanding for some time. 
We have never had the I think courage to look at the Loi Evin which is operating in France. Of course the Law Commission said that that is a long way from where it thinks we could be but it was passed in 1991 and despite the many challenges that have been brought against that law—which allows for no advertising targeted at young people no advertising on television or in cinemas no sponsorship of cultural or sports events and advertising permitted only in the press for adults on billboards or on radio channels under very precise conditions and its content is very controlled—it has worked. A health message is included on each advertisement to the effect that alcohol abuse is dangerous for health. 
It should go without saying but alcohol is actually dangerous to the purse of the New Zealand taxpayer. I do not know why people do not understand that for every person who takes up a hospital bed as the result of a crash caused by a drunken driver that is somebody who is not getting an elective surgery and for every person who cannot get the police officer to come after they have had a burglary because that police officer is in town dealing with a fight that has broken out in the early hours of the morning that is because of alcohol-fuelled harm. I cannot see why the people of New Zealand cannot see that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a total free-for-all in all of these areas and have alcohol advertising to the extent that it does dominate public opinion. I think it is time for real change in this House. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 81 in the name of Te Ururoa Flavell to insert new Part 2A and new clause 58A be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 44 
New Zealand Labour 26 (Chauvel Clark Cunliffe Curran Dalziel Dyson Fenton Goff Horomia Huo Jones King A Mackey Mahuta Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Robertson R Shearer Sio Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; Maori Party 3; Mana 1. 
Noes 76 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 7 (Ardern J Cosgrove Faafoi Hipkins Lees-Galloway Little Mallard); New Zealand First 8; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
New Part 2A and amendment not agreed to. 
The result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 44 Noes 66. 
The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 91 in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway to insert new Parts 2A and 7 and to clause 220 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendments be agreed to. 
Ayes 56 
New Zealand Labour 30 (Ardern J Chauvel Clark Cosgrove Cunliffe Dalziel Dyson Faafoi Fenton Hipkins Horomia Huo Jones Lees-Galloway Little Mackey Mahuta Mallard Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Robertson R Shearer Sio Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 3; Mana 1. 
Noes 64 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 3 (Curran Goff King A); ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
New Parts 2A and 7 and amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 115 in the name of Dr David Clark to insert new clause 220A be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 48 
New Zealand Labour 30 (Ardern J Chauvel Clark Cosgrove Cunliffe Curran Dalziel Dyson Faafoi Fenton Goff Horomia Huo Jones King A Little Mackey Mahuta Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Robertson R Shearer Sio Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; Maori Party 3; Mana 1. 
Noes 72 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 3 (Hipkins Lees-Galloway Mallard); New Zealand First 8; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We now move to Part 3. This is debate on clauses 12 to 284. I will just explain the procedure that we will be following. The debate and voting on amendments to Part 3 will be grouped as follows: licensing requirements and conditions subpart 1 other than minimum pricing proposals— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Just for clarification because I am trying to mark things off on this as we go through was the new Part 7 dealt with at that time or will that be voted on later? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: That part has been defeated. We have just had that. That was part of new Part 2A and new Part 7. We have dealt with that. We are now on Part 3. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: I had different votes for the two parts. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Would you like to explain your position? 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Well for Part 2A the amendments in the name of Mr Flavell we had 26 to 7 which is what I cast. For new Part 7 which was the alcohol advertising reform committee on Supplementary Order Paper 91 in the name of Lees-Galloway I had 32 in favour one opposed. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: So you are wishing to change your votes? 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: No—well how can I split the vote when they have been put together? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: This was an agreement of the Business Committee so— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: No but not the votes. Certainly the debate was put together but I did not think the votes were put together. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: So what you are asking for is that on Iain Lees-Galloway’s amendments you wanted to separate out new Part 2A relating to advertising and have a separate vote on new Part 7 establishing an alcohol advisory reform committee—is that what you are asking? 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Yes. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: You need to seek leave for that. 
Louise Upston 
: I thought we voted on Supplementary Order Paper 91 both of those components. Can you clarify whether we did or not? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: You are right; that is what we were doing. But what the member is asking for—in Iain Lees-Galloway’s amendment there is actually two parts to it. There is new Part 2A and new clause 220 relating to advertising. That is what they are suggesting shall be one question and the second question is on new Part 7 which establishes an alcohol advisory reform committee. That would be a second vote. To do it the member has to seek leave because I have already put the vote and I cannot change it unless the Committee approves that we go back to it and have the vote again. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I seek leave that a vote be taken on new Part 7 to establish an alcohol advertising reform committee on Iain Lees Galloway’s Supplementary Order Paper 91. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. So we go back to new Part 7. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 91 in the name of Iain Lees-Galloway to insert new Part 7 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 58 
New Zealand Labour 32 (Ardern J Chauvel Clark Cosgrove Cunliffe Curran Dalziel Dyson Faafoi Fenton Goff Hipkins Horomia Huo Jones King A Lees-Galloway Little Mackey Mahuta Moroney Parker Prasad Robertson G Robertson R Shearer Sio Street Tirikatene Twyford Wall Woods); Green Party 14; New Zealand First 8; Maori Party 3; Mana 1. 
Noes 62 
New Zealand National 59; New Zealand Labour 1 (Mallard); ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1. 
New Part 7 not agreed to. 
Part 3 and amendment to clause 382 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We are just going back now to where I was before—Part 3. This is debate on clauses 12 to 284. The procedure we are going to follow is that the debate and voting on amendments to Part 3 will be grouped as follows: licensing requirements and conditions Subpart 1 other than minimum pricing proposals—so we will have the amendments related to that and then we will have the vote on those. The next one is minimum pricing Subpart 1. The third is local alcohol policies Subpart 2. The fourth is licensing process and licensing bodies Subparts 3 to 7. The fifth is offences and enforcement Subparts 8 and 9. So we now move to licensing requirements and conditions Subpart 1 clauses 12 to 74. 
LOUISE UPSTON (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am just seeking to clarify. I understood that all of the votes for this part would be taken in one go so it would be debated as one part. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: As I explained earlier we are actually splitting this into five separate debates within Part 3. So we are going to deal with those topics that I mentioned. Once we have completed that the amendments under those headings will be put—the questions will be put—and we will deal with those. Then we will move on to the next provision. Does the member wish to say something? Are we all comfortable— 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Could I just ask your indulgence? I think we have understood the manner in which the debate and the voting will occur. Would you mind just reading the subparts out one more time? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Sure. This is what the Business Committee has agreed to. The debate and voting on amendments to Part 3 will be grouped as follows: first licensing requirements and conditions Subpart 1 other than minimum pricing proposals. Once we have dealt with that we will then put the amendments related to that section. Then we will move on and the second one is minimum pricing Subpart 1. The third is local alcohol policies Subpart 2. The fourth is licensing process and licensing bodies Subparts 3 to 7 and finally offences and enforcement Subparts 8 and 9. 
Charles Chauvel 
: Thank you Mr Chairman. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Members—[ 
Interruption 
] I stand corrected members. It is one debate on Part 3 but we are going to be dealing with those separate areas for separate votes in that order. All right? So it is a debate on Part 3—[ 
Interruption 
]—on the whole of Part 3. So the question is— 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The reason I just want to have some clarity around this is because my understanding is that we were going to group them into these different areas for the purposes of the debate and the voting so I did not think it was going to be separated off. The reason that I mention this is that I do have an interest in it because the Supplementary Order Paper that is in my name is on minimum pricing which ends up being one of these five different areas of debate. But my amendment would be in Part 6 otherwise except that it is being brought into this part. If that was then to be part of just a single debate for the whole of Part 3 then I would be restricted to four calls when I would have had four calls on my Supplementary Order Paper had it been dealt with in its own part. It has been brought out of Part 6 and brought forward in order to group it with another one for the purposes of debate. No one would have agreed to give up debating time on an important issue in order to move something. For the ease of the Committee I think we have all been agreeable to having the different votes but I never understood that that would actually mean that there would be a restriction to four calls over the five very separate debates that we have agreed to have. Otherwise we would never have agreed to have my Supplementary Order Paper brought forward into the largest part of the bill and removed from Part 6 where it properly sits. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I hear what you say— 
Kevin Hague 
: Speaking to the point of order. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am just getting some clarification. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Point of order Mr Chair. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Just one moment. I will get back to you. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 I want to support the point of order raised by my colleague Lianne Dalziel. We are in a similar but different situation in that I am the spokesperson for my party on all of the issues associated with this bill so if we were to be confined to four calls per member for this entire part that would restrict us to just four calls and the span of this part is much greater than four calls would suffice for. I know that other parties perhaps New Zealand First would be in a similar position. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We are in the hands of the determinations of the Business Committee and I will just read what it says: “Part 3 sale and supply of alcohol generally including minimum pricing new clauses 43A 230A and amendments proposed to clauses 267 and 382(1) will be one question.” I understand that the member’s amendments relate to subclause 382(1) and the issue is that if this is taken as one part the maximum number of calls would be four—and this is the point that the member Kevin Hague also made—so you are affected by that. We are governed however by the determination of the Business Committee and the only way I think to deal with that once a debate starts and you have had your four calls would possibly be to seek leave to go beyond the number of four calls. I cannot make rules here to change what the Business Committee has determined so I am actually guided very much by this. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Would it possibly be a solution if I were to apply for the leave of the Committee for spokespeople only to not be affected by the four call limitation in respect of this subpart? If so I so apply. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: It is appropriate to seek leave for that purpose. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is objection. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This has certainly come as a bit of a surprise I think to a number of us and I accept that I was not involved in that decision. It simply has come as a bit of a shock so I am trying to see whether we can get our shadow Leader of the House to assist in the matter. But I wondered whether even though obviously we are governed by the decision of the Business Committee there was some opportunity for the Committee to take leave to make any changes to that or are you saying that that cannot be changed even by leave of the Committee? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I did put leave on the point of order that Charles Chauvel made. I put leave that the spokespeople would be given extra calls. That leave was denied so I have actually done that. 
LOUISE UPSTON (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The Business Committee has spent a significant amount of time working through the logistics of this bill and the Committee stage. I believe we should proceed on that basis given that it has had the agreement of all parties in the House. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I seek leave that Supplementary Order Paper 113 in my name which amends clause 382 in Part 6 of the bill be debated under Part 6 of the bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
KEVIN HAGUE (Green) 
: 
 First of all I wish to register the Green Party’s objection to the Government’s position on this. But I want to— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! You cannot comment on the decision I have made. I am reflecting the Business Committee’s determination. The Business Committee made it and I am here to ensure that that is what we follow. 
KEVIN HAGUE 
: Mr Chair if I could just clarify. I was not objecting to anything about your conduct. I was stating my disappointment that the Government has taken the position that it has. 
LOUISE UPSTON (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is well known that the Business Committee operates on near unanimity. As I have said before there have been lengthy discussions in the Business Committee. It has reached near unanimity on this decision and so I object to that kind of point. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 Mr Chair— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I will hear Charles Chauvel. 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: My colleague from the Green Party was not disputing what the junior Government whip has just said. What I took him to be objecting to was the fact that Government members chose to decline leave to a proposal that sought to get around the problem that had been identified—that is that spokespeople under this determination of the Business Committee are restricted to— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the member. I am sure the member was just expressing his disappointment about the way that it had gone. That is the end of the matter. The time has come for me to report progress. 
Progress reported. 
Report adopted.