8. Intelligence and Security—Presence of Russian Intelligence Officers in New ZealandHon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua) to the Minister of Foreign AffairsIntelligence and Security—Presence of Russian Intelligence Officers in New Zealand8. Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua) to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What will New Zealand's response be to reports that following the Salisbury nerve agent attack 150 Russian diplomats have been expelled from 26 countries plus NATO?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs): The same as I hope that member's response would be having received advice from the New Zealand SIS (NZSIS) and acted upon it. If he can give me an alternative response to the NZSIS advice we'd like to hear it.Hon Todd McClay: Does he agree with the Prime Minister when she said yesterday We don't have Russian undeclared intelligence officers here."?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I agree with both the Prime Minister and the NZSIS who gave her the information. The fact is we don't take knee-jerk reactions on this side of the House; we get the evidence we get the facts and we are working close with the NZSIS on that. As to outside—Hon Simon Bridges: Winston—they don't need a spy; they've got Winston.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: No you'll have to listen.SPEAKER: Order! I am going to ask the member to resume his seat. This is a matter of international importance which I think just about every member of the House is interested in and I think it ill behoves people to chip while the Minister of Foreign Affairs is replying. But I will ask him if he can to play as straight a bat as he can.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Not in Aussie for that if you ask me. Ha ha!Hon Gerry Brownlee: Stop laughing—it's serious.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I was looking at you Gerry. I'm advised by the NZSIS and so has the Prime Minister been that there is no individual here in New Zealand who fits the profile of those being expelled by other countries—that is people within the embassies in other countries. If there were we would have taken action a long time before Salisbury. But here's the real point: the NZSIS advises it is aware of Russian intelligence activity in New Zealand and where it is seen appropriate action is taken.Hon Todd McClay: Has he seen reports on the RNZ website today with the headline "PM's spy comments make New Zealand a 'laughing stock' " or the UK's Guardian website which says "New Zealand says it would expel Russian spies … but it [just] can't find any"?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Having been in politics for some time I prefer to listen to the NZSIS. I'd rather listen to people with experience than a few flighty journalists from abroad.Hon Simon Bridges: Winston reads Investigate. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: And if they want to make the kind of noise that Simon Bridges is making right now showing how unprepared he is for leadership because he's prepared to react to every phone call from some foreign embassy rather than his own national interests. Now having said that we have been monitoring this ship in the past and here comes the contrast: Australia in a much bigger context found only two so maybe we're on the right track here.Hon Todd McClay: Does the Minister really believe that as a member of "Five Eyes" New Zealand is the only country without Russian spies when Australia the UK the US Canada most of Europe and even Albania have expelled Russian diplomats?SPEAKER: I am going to let the question go but I think for the third time today I'm going to advise members of the Opposition that they should make sure in their supplementary questions they have ministerial responsibility. That might be a question which is appropriate for two other members very clearly but it is not a question that is the responsibility of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. But because I'm being kind and generous I will allow Mr Peters to answer it.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I can advise that member that people in the "Five Eyes" have consulted with us on our decision understand our decision—did so before the decision was made I might add because they are aware of the facts.Hon Simon Bridges: How can they understand it before it was made?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: They understood the circumstance or priority they were applying may not apply in New Zealand. They are more aware of this country's context than that member is.Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Is he concerned by reports that the Opposition are suggesting this Government should ignore the advice of the NZSIS who also acted in conjunction with our "Five Eyes" partners in the advice that they have provided this Government that this Government has acted on?Hon Gerry Brownlee: Point of order.SPEAKER: No I want to deal with a matter first and the first thing that I'm going to deal with is—right from the start actually I was hoping that the Prime Minister might be able to bring that question within the responsibilities of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. She did not manage to.Hon Todd McClay: Does the Minister agree with TVNZ political commentator John Armstrong who said and I quote "[The] claim … that New Zealand has been ahead of the international pack in declaring Moscow as behind the attempted murder of Skripal was as outrageous as it was audacious as it was patently incorrect."?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Could I have that quote again one more time—and slowly.SPEAKER: Can the member ask the question again.Hon Todd McClay: Does the Minister agree with TVNZ political commentator John Armstrong who said "[The] claim … that New Zealand has been ahead of the international pack in declaring Moscow as behind the attempted murder of Skripal was … outrageous as it was audacious as it was patently incorrect."?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: If it was true it is all of those things. But the statement is false.Hon Todd McClay: After three weeks of mishandling and inaction when will he stand with our friends and allies and take action against Russia?SPEAKER: Order! I think what I am going to do is ask the shadow Leader of the House to do something like run a seminar with—[Interruption] Order! All right; as a result of the interjection from the Leader of the Opposition the National Party have lost two supplementary questions and I'm going to repeat the comment that I was making. I think we've now had at least three of the supplementary questions from Mr McClay that were outside Speakers' rulings. We've had one from the Prime Minister as well. I do understand that for some members it has been a long time since they have been involved in asking a series of questions—if at all—and therefore it might take some practice and some tutelage. I'm going to ask now Mr McClay to ask his question again—without penalty—and attempt to get it in an area which is Mr Peters' responsibility.Hon Todd McClay: When will he stand with our friends and allies and take action against Russia?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Far too late—we've been doing that from day one. But we want to make it very clear that what we've been challenged by in terms of the Opposition and the media is often demonstrably false. For example 40 percent of the European Union like New Zealand have made no expulsions. But no no—we hear from the media that the European Union has does this and so has everybody else. Well in the end Australia found two. We're a much smaller country and we haven't found any yet inside the embassy in the way that abroad they did.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I raise two points of order. The first is that when you ruled that question out from the Prime Minister you didn't reflect on the fact that she was asking the Minister if he had seen reports about what effectively would be seditious activity by Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. That is exceptionally offensive and simply cannot be stacked up by any material that might be put in front of the House and is an unacceptable abuse of the House's privilege often granted to a Prime Minister to say more than is acceptable or reasonable in any circumstance.The second point is that you made the point of asking the Opposition to be a little quieter and more respectful because of the nature of this question. That situation wasn't helped by the atmosphere created right from the start—which will be evident when you review the tapes as I know you do later in the day—by the introduction to the answer from the Rt Hon Winston Peters. He may not think this is a serious matter but we most certainly do.Hon Chris Hipkins: I think if the Opposition wished to object to the implication in the Prime Minister's question they might like to reflect on the implication in the questions being asked by the Opposition. In fact I think the Prime Minister's question was simply rebutting the implication being raised by the Opposition actually.Hon Gerry Brownlee: That is simply not the case. There is quite a difference between asking a question about a Government's action or inaction and then in a response or a question that's designed to deflect from that suggesting that the Opposition was engaged in effectively seditious activity against the best interests of this country. That is the problem.Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Point of order Mr Speaker.SPEAKER: The right honourable Prime Minister—speaking to this point of order?Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern: Speaking to this point of order in the answer to their primary question the Minister of Foreign Affairs made it clear that the action the Government had taken was on the advice of the NZSIS. In a follow-up supplementary question from the Opposition member he implied that we'd acted incorrectly in doing so. I thought it only right to therefore draw the inference that he was claiming that we were wrong to listen to the NZSIS.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I'm sorry Mr Speaker but the New Zealand SIS and the New Zealand GCSB do not set foreign policy for this country. The Government does and while they might take advice from those people I am confident there will be no documentation to say that those organisations advised the Government not to take any action in this matter.SPEAKER: Well I think—[Interruption] Yes the Prime Minister has interjected while I'm on my feet and because she has special responsibilities that will result in three extra supplementary questions going to the National Party. Now I think there are a couple of questions which I am dealing with at the moment. I think the first one is whether the Prime Minister went too far in her supplementary question and I say there are a couple of points. One I will have a look at it and come back if I think it's necessary. There is a question of timeliness if that was a specific point that the member wanted to bring up. And I will say on the second of his substantive points he will have noticed that I did ask—maybe it needs some translation from some people—the right honourable gentleman to attempt to use a straight bat in these matters. The implication of that is that members should treat these materials in this area seriously.Hon Kelvin Davis: What would happen if he didn't take the advice of the SIS?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: That's a fascinating question. That's a fascinating question. I suppose there are a number of answers to that but one of them would be just to grab a couple of people and throw them out of the country without any evidence at all."