12. Question No. 12—Building and ConstructionARENA WILLIAMS (Labour—Manurewa) to the Minister for Building and ConstructionQuestion No. 12—Building and Construction12. ARENA WILLIAMS (Labour—Manurewa) to the Minister for Building and Construction: Do People who are actively engaged in building homes in this country" tell him that building colder damper houses with less insulation will result in more homes being built?Hon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction): No.Arena Williams: Does the Minister disagree with Fletcher Building's Residential and Development Chief Executive Steve Evans who was reported by RNZ as saying "The insulation standards were going well particularly that wall insulation and other improvements required were providing significant benefits to people by keeping out cold and damp."?Hon CHRIS PENK: The building sector has expressed a range of different views as to the workability of the new H1 regulation requirements including as to the cost. I refer for example to the comments provided to the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment (MBIE) in relation to a general building sector survey: "I am unsure if it is necessary to upgrade from where we are at. It just adds so much cost that the public won't build new homes." Also "MBIE should pay more attention to the coal-face builders who understand the true cost and practicalities of building. The H1 changes are based on fanciful ideas of environmentalists and greedy suppliers. Unfortunately the of the builder [sic] and consumers get drowned out by the academics and bureaucrats." Now I don't suggest that those who are making a particular argument in terms of the current settings are ill-motivated but I would say it's important that we listen to a range of voices and a range of different interests who have a view about the complexity the practicality and the affordability of the changes as they have currently been made.Arena Williams: Well when he says that the building sector has a range of different views does anyone disagree with the Master Builders Association and the Certified Builders Association when they endorsed the insulation standards?Hon CHRIS PENK: Clearly yes and I thank the member for the opportunity to also note a separate comment that was made by a building practitioner: "The introduction of the new H1 requirements is a mess poorly introduced lacked market detail. Architects are totally confused and do not understand the requirements. To put it in perspective we process around 500 to 600 plans per month solely for insulation QS."Arena Williams: Does he disagree with National MP Dr Vanessa Weenink who when speaking about her experience as a medical doctor said on Tuesday that if housing is damp or if it's in a mouldy environment if it's overcrowded that can actually lead to more avoidable hospital admissions and upper respiratory infections?Hon CHRIS PENK: My colleague and friend the good doctor is of course correct and those who are arguing in favour of warm dry homes I hope would be supported by every person in this House. No one is arguing that we should have homes that are not well insulated or ventilated. The key question which I'm approaching on behalf of the Government in good faith is how we achieve that. So for example I'd invite the member to look into the detail for example of whether the schedule method in clause H1 of the building code is more effective than the modelling method whereby you have a relatively blunt instrument that applied in different parts of the country that is proving impracticable and expensive. If she were to listen to some people who are engaged in the building sector who have different views from those she's already expressed and chooses to listen to she will learn a thing or two.Cameron Luxton: Minister what cost-benefit analysis was undertaken at the time of the review of H1 to weigh up the insulation gains from installing concrete slab insulation against the significant cost and will he change the way these reviews are undertaken in the future to provide assurance for the industry that the costs don't outweigh the benefits?Hon CHRIS PENK: The member asked a very good question and one from a basis of knowledge as a licensed building practitioner himself. The point around concrete slabs I think it's a good one. It's one that's frequently raised by those who are carefully considering where the major costs lie for example weighing those versus the insulation versus the thermal break requirement in the windows going beyond the double glazing. The detail does matter. In terms of the cost-benefit analysis I would point out that of course for a cost-benefit analysis to be meaningful and hold weight it needs to be based on the actual real-world costs that are inputted into that. So part of the review that I'm keen that MBIE now conducts talking to a range of different views within the sector is precisely to weigh the actual cost versus the actual benefit and we'll see what the true position is at that point.Arena Williams: Is the Minister telling the House that his proposal to reduce insulation requirements will not result in any homes being colder and damper?Hon CHRIS PENK: I haven't suggested that for a moment. I've suggested that we have a set of requirements in relation to insulation that actually achieve the aim without reducing housing affordability. It's as simple a matter as that and the detail of the way that the current regulations are operating versus what they could be if it's possible to achieve the same results more affordably more practicably and with greater certainty then that's a result that I think we should all try and work towards. Arena Williams: Then how many kids growing up in cold damp housing is too many for that Minister to accept?Hon CHRIS PENK: The number of kids growing up in cold damp housing that is unacceptable is one or greater. Since 1978 we have required at least some insulation in New Zealand houses. Prior to that which accounts for half of the housing stock in this country there was no requirement. The greater benefit in terms of cost-benefit ratio and the attention of this House and indeed of course the work of the building sector will be to apply greater resource and imagination to the ways in which we can actually achieve that retrofitting as well as for new builds as applied to H1 ensure that we have a reasonable degree of complexity versus the certainty of those different methods so we can achieve affordable outcomes that don't see any child in New Zealand grow up in a cold or damp home."