Baillie ChrisCHRIS BAILLIE (ACT): Madam Speaker—ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean): James Baillie.CHRIS BAILLIE: It's Chris Madam Speaker but it's OK.ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean): It's the second time I've done that.CHRIS BAILLIE: I rise on behalf of ACT to take a short call on the Education and Training (Grants—Budget Measures) Amendment Bill. The details of what is wrong with this bill I think have been pretty well explained by members over on this side of the House and there are a number of other factors which make this bill unacceptable in its present form. There were over 550 submissions. They all said that pay parity was an issue and they're all good caring people who want to pay their workers more but they showed up a number of flaws. If I can just read David Gibson with 120 staff he said it's a nail in the coffin for him and he'll become insolvent. Jessica Dodd: It'll be unaffordable. There's too much bureaucracy no consultation." Bridget Gifford: "Fifty kids—will reduce staff or put up fees." Deborah Petterson with 334 kids in her centres: "I'll have to change ratios increase fees. Special things cancelled like special needs programmes."The funding is inadequate and it's been mentioned in quite a bit of detail over this side. To pay people businesses must have the money themselves to be able to afford to pay people and if they don't have it they won't be able to and it's the same with this Government's approach to small business as well: the businesses must have the money in order for it to flow down and for them to get it. The unintended consequences—I've explained the early childhood centres some will have to close the ratios will change will get greater and the fees will go up. The consultation process was non-existent. I'm not sure of Minister Hipkins' definition of "consultation" but I think it's pertinent to just remind ourselves of a High Court judge's definition of "consultation" if I may just quote this: "Consultation must allow sufficient time and a genuine effort must be made. It is a reality not a charade. … To "consult" is not merely to tell or present. … consultation is to seek at least consensus. … Implicit in the concept is a requirement that the party consulted will be (or will be made) adequately informed so as to be able to make intelligent and useful responses. It is also implicit that the party obliged to consult while quite entitled to have a working plan already in mind must keep its mind open and be ready to change and even start afresh." I think to ignore all of the submitters—almost all of them—would be arrogance to the extreme. It's not surprising that there is a suspicion of an ulterior motive. The extra powers awarded through this bill haven't been explained properly. The quote "I have no intention of doing anything." really falls on deaf ears and I think we have reasonable—we accept that that is a pretty reasonable assumption. We do expect an edict dictating who 5 percent of our employees have to be.To conclude things need to change in this very important sector but it deserves a thorough review so it's done right: consultation that is listened to adequate funding provided and solutions that respect both the hard-working early childhood centre owners and their hard-working employees. Thank you Madam Speaker."