Clark DavidHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health): I read from the Justice Committee report that the New Zealand Police Association argued that substance use and crime are often linked due to the high cost of a drug habit fed by a criminal marketplace. I bring to the attention of this House the fact that the police who deal with the hardest end of drug crime in their organisation as a Police Association argue that this bill is not supported by evidence that increasing penalties will deter the people that use or supply these drugs.The association rather supports a more holistic approach to the problems that are created by synthetic drugs and I agree with them—I agree with them. I think we as a society need to tackle the real problems that underlie drug addiction. We know that drug addiction is driven by loneliness. It is driven often by a history of a difficult childhood. We know that there are many common factors that affect people's addiction and we can see the links that are there and plain to see. Simply increasing the penalties for the use of these drugs will criminalise more people. We do need to target the suppliers—I absolutely agree with the member in that respect—but I don't think that doing that alone will achieve anything. In fact if it captures those who are users as well it will do—or it certainly risks doing—more harm than good.Part of a health approach is attacking supply and I want to speak little about that. I think personally that there are other ways to get to this issue and one of them is to look at reclassifying under the Misuse of Drugs Act those known substances. That is something that we can do. Unfortunately the drug law that we've inherited is rather clunky.Hon Members: Oh here we go.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The members opposite will mock this but this is a serious issue. This is a very serious issue and I accept that the member who's brought the bill to Parliament treats this as a serious issue. It's the members behind him that are doing the mocking. We have a serious challenge on our hands with drug law reform to ensure that we are actually helping those who are caught in the web of addiction. We know that those caught in the web of addiction need our help and support. We know our health system is not geared up appropriately to support them. We know the police are calling for different interventions. We know that those at our customs level know that these drugs are coming into the country. And the real issue is both getting to the supply but also making sure that we're not criminalising the users of these substances. On top of that of course we know that desperate circumstances drive people to take drugs so we know that the inequalities that are in our society need to be addressed. The homelessness the housing crisis—all of these things have a contributing effect at some level. Unless we address the real causes of the misery that underpins the use of these substances—and particularly let's note that the substances we're talking about the psychoactive drugs are incredibly cheap. They are being used often by our most vulnerable and desperate. They're not people who are thinking through the logical consequences of their actions. They are desperate people and so I think that's why we've seen so many of these submissions speak about the lack of evidence that longer prison sentences contribute to reduced harm. I recommend the select committee report to the House and to the members of the public who might be listening in to this parliamentary session because people who have expertise in this area have contributed a great deal to that report I can see. They know that the prohibition of drugs causes harm and I recommend to the House a book Chasing the Scream by Johann Hari. Now the man who wrote the book has been accused of plagiarism earlier in his career. I don't think that detracts from the story he tells of the history of the war on drugs and its failure to achieve what we need to achieve in our societies which is support for those who are struggling with addictions and a hard approach to those who are driving supply. But I don't think that this is the approach that's going to get us there. We need a more comprehensive approach that looks at community education that looks at housing and that treats drug use as a health issue and makes sure that when addicts come forward for support there is support there for them—that we actually have a sufficient response to support addicts in the health system when they come forward. Our health workers work incredibly hard to make this happen but they have been stretched for a long time. I see also in the select committee report that Māori groups have come forward and said that this change that's proposed will disproportionately affect Māori. Te Rūnanga o Ngāti Whātua submitted that increasing penalties around psychoactive substances would have a disproportionate effect on Māori. And we know also that in our criminal justice system those who are driven to crime by addictions then form a large portion of that criminal population who are incarcerated many of them Māori many of them disadvantaged in first place trying to overcome their disadvantage and then finding themselves in places of difficulty taking solace in drugs that are incredibly harmful.I want to say also in my other role as the Minister of Health not just as an ordinary member on members' day that these are incredibly harmful drugs. Any people that do have a choice about them should avoid them like the plague. The psychoactive substances being peddled on our streets right now are incredibly variable in their potency and many of them are new substances that have only arrived in the country in recent weeks. The supply is changing constantly. These are big challenges and we do need a comprehensive and real response to the real issues that are driving the problems that we have in our society with these drugs.It is the sellers and suppliers that should be punished and in order to do that we need greater surveillance powers. Now this bill doesn't achieve it. The Misuse of Drugs Act does have the ability to put surveillance powers in place—greater surveillance powers for the police. That's why I'm looking at whether there is a measure there that would be more appropriate because we want to interrupt the major suppliers but at the same time we don't want to get caught up in the existing structure in the Misuse of Drugs Act that would also criminalise those petty users on the street in desperate circumstances. So that is something that we will be dealing with. Obviously these deaths go back quite a long way. I don't want to politicise it as the members opposite seem to be doing but let's acknowledge that this problem has been growing for a number of years and people have been dying for several years because of some of these products. It requires a serious solution and not a knee-jerk reaction. I am not condemning the member for bringing this matter because I do think that the increase in penalties for those suppliers—well more importantly not the increase in penalties but getting to those suppliers is the critical thing. I accept that he is genuine in his intent in wanting to make a difference here.Let's go back to the fact that there has never been convincing evidence that increased penalties act as a deterrent effect. It's appropriate that there should be penalties for those at the hard end of supply but just simply increasing them is a fool's victory—it doesn't have any impact at all.I also want to commend before I finish the work undertaken by the National Drug Intelligence Bureau on the development of a proposed drug early warning system. We know that one of the things that we can do and must do—SPEAKER: Order! I've let the member run fairly wide but I will remind him that on the second reading we are debating the bill before the House not matters outside that area. I think I was fairly loose on the previous speaker so I let the member run. But I do want to remind members now that they are debating the bill not matters outside it.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Quite right Mr Speaker. So to come back to the point there's a lack of evidence that increasing penalties will make a difference in terms of deterring those who are dealing with these drugs. Māori have submitted that this measure will have a detrimental effect on their well-being. Those who submitted on the bill were very clear that a wider all-of-Government approach would be necessary to reduce drug harm which I believe to be the intent behind the bill despite the fact that I think it just doesn't get there.