10. Question No. 10—WomenHon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for WomenQuestion No. 10—Women10. Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for Women: How can she be responsible for eliminating the gender pay gap when the Ministry for Women's gender pay gap has gone from 5.6 percent in favour of women to 6 percent in favour of men?Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Minister for Women): Firstly I'd just like to say the Government is absolutely committed to progress for the 30000 women who work in the public sector with the most recent figures across the public sector showing a drop in the overall gender pay gap to 12.2 percent the smallest gap ever. Of course the Ministry for Women is well aware of gender equality and my expectation is they are ensuring gender equality in their own organisation and across the public sector. I wouldn't get too fixated on the gender pay gap at the ministry.Alastair Scott: Don't get fixated—don't worry about it. Just ignore it—forget about it.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I'm sure the Opposition will be interested to know that for very small organisations it jumps around a lot.SPEAKER: Mr Scott please settle down.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I support the ministry's diversity strategy which includes hiring more men. In fact the ministry now has six men employed which is more than it's ever had. Due to its size the ministry's gender pay gap does not meet the threshold required to produce meaningful high-level gender pay gap statistics but we do still release it and I note the figure has previously jumped around from 10 percent in favour of men to 48 percent in favour of women. So it does move a lot from year to year. While the number was 5.6 for 2018 it was in favour of women by 6 percent the year before. If you look at the average over the past two years it's close to zero which is about as good as you're ever going to get for an organisation with only 33 full-time people.Hon Louise Upston: Why is the Minister minimising a 12 percent gender pay gap movement in the wrong direction?Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I'm not sure if the member listened to my answer but I'll give it to her again if she's interested.SPEAKER: No no—order! Just short—not the whole thing again.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: OK. Due to its small size the pay gap for a small ministry like that jumps around a lot. What this Government is interested in is the overall gender pay gap across the core Public Service and I note that when that member was Minister for Women in the National Party across the Public Service the gender pay gap was 14 percent. It's now down to 12.2. We want to close it and we will.Hon Louise Upston: Why does the Minister think that going out and hiring more blokes in the Ministry for Women and paying them more than the existing staff is a good idea?Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I can understand the member's getting very excited—she thinks she's got a real smoking gun here—but what's really important is closing the pay gap for the 30000 women who work in the Public Service. You can take any small number of employees and there will be a little bit of movement maybe up to 10 percent on either side but what's really important is that we have men working to support closing the pay gap across the Public Service. [Interruption] It's amazing. I know—SPEAKER: Ignore it—ignore it.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I know the Opposition struggles with maths but let me explain: 30 people is a very small percentage of 30000 people and what matters to women is that they are not facing unconscious bias. This Government has a gender pay action plan at every organisation in the Public Service something that did not exist under the previous Government. So we are making real progress towards equality for women and men are going to be part of that journey and I'm happy to say that. [Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Before the member asks I will remind people that generally I would cut back a question that's going on at that length but when members on my left are continually inviting by way of interjection further comment I'm not going to do that.Hon Louise Upston: Why won't the Minister just accept responsibility for a 12 percent movement in the wrong direction in her own ministry when the gender pay gap has clearly gone backwards?Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I absolutely take responsibility for leading the work across this Government that has seen the gender pay gap across the Public Service drop to its lowest level ever 12.2 percent. But I'll also say that while that member was Minister for Women the overall national pay gap went from 9.9 percent to 12 percent and that would have affected many many more women.Hon Tracey Martin: Can the Minister confirm that there has been previously between a 10 percent to a 48 percent movement and what period of time around about was that in?Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: In 2010 the pay gap was 10 percent in favour of men. It moved to 48 percent in favour of women in 2011 then it moved back to 8 percent in favour of women 51 percent in favour of women 56 percent in favour of women—it's a very small organisation. But obviously the Ministry for Women understands better than any other organisation in Government the importance of gender equality and that's why they're leading the work and why we now have a task force across the Government to close the gender pay gap and why we are going to see real progress for the 30000 women who work in the Public Service.Hon Louise Upston: What steps will the Minister take immediately to walk the walk and eliminate the gender pay gap in the Ministry for Women?SPEAKER: Order! Order! I'll let the Minister answer but I do want to warn members that that was inviting a Minister to breach State Sector Act.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: I'm happy to let the member know that the Ministry for Women has a gender pay action plan as does every other Government ministry—something that the previous Government never bothered with. But this is how we're going to make progress in closing the gender pay gap and ensuring that there's no unconscious bias or discrimination against women across the Public Service where there are 30000 female employees who deserve to be paid fairly for their work. We take that seriously. That's why we're doing the mahi.Hon Louise Upston: How can the Minister credibly lead and catalyse" elimination of the gender pay gap in the public sector let alone the whole economy when her own house is a mess or is this just another dead rat that she's prepared to swallow?SPEAKER: Order! No there's irony in that. The question's ruled out. Further supplementary?"