Mahuta NanaiaHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government): That last statement of the member is simply not correct. If anybody in this House accepts that kind of statement (1) they haven't been listening to the thorough considerations that have taken place over the five years through the various modelling of this Government in coming to this reform; (2) they have not taken on board the select committee report of which they got a condensed amount of information in relation to the policy drivers and the modelling that's occurred and the submitters; and (3) they believe that their own rhetoric will in some shape or form lead an alternative solution because there is no alternative solution.Hon Member: Not true.Hon NANAIA MAHUTA: Can I just—yeah well it's a statement of fact. [Interruption] Sadly it is. But let me just draw the attention of the committee to what the member is proposing based on his own local council and a set of modelling that had some clear deficiencies because we know that the Communities 4 Local Democracy based much of their proposition on the Castalia report and there were some clear deficiencies in that particular report. One of them was that they—well there are a couple of things in the proposal that should give people cause to consider what the alternative is that is being proposed on this side of the Chamber. Firstly those councils that were part of that group wanted time to develop their own set of arrangements. The difficulty with that is that there will be significant variability across the country in what those arrangements could look like. It sounded in some ways like councils wanted to choose who they wanted to work with without a real sense of what the equitable benefits would be across regions and districts. That's a worry.The other element was that the Castalia report through scale and aggregation didn't even factor in the procurement benefits that could be derived from the model that we have in front of us. That was a deficit. The other element was that it ignored significant case studies around both Wellington Water and Watercare and the lessons that we've learnt from just our own experiences of where councils have got to either through existing legislation or through cooperation. There is learning from both the Wellington Water and the Watercare model that we should not ignore and we should say OK if this is as far as councils can get cooperatively what more do we need to do to ensure that New Zealanders as a whole both ratepayers and taxpayers can benefit from a reform agenda?"That is where this Government is taking us to the broader benefits of moving through reform taking on board the lessons that we have within our own country context drawing on comparative research and then offering up bespoke opportunities for the New Zealand type of model which is why we have for example Te Mana o te Wai considerations the ability for councils' existing arrangements around joint decision-making especially when it comes to natural resources to be factored in and when it comes to a really strong sentiment that many councils actually supported which was a public model of water service delivery which rejected privatisation. I've gone to read many of the submissions here and many feel very strongly about a non-privatisation agenda; these are councils. We need to take on board that consideration as we thoroughly and robustly debate the rest of the issue. So I really wanted to put that on the table.Can I also highlight in relation to local voice that that is the reason why the Government's Supplementary Order Paper strengthens local voice in a number of areas—but let me point to one for the purposes of the debate that's come up in the committee. We want the ability for entities to use the establishment of regional advisory panels to take decision making closer to the community of interest so that that local voice can come through so that those voices can contribute to the formation of the strategic documents that we've been referencing in the House. That is going to be an important element and addition to strengthening the model that we have that keeps faith in the community that we'll do something about it.On the engagement provisions this bill does not merely ensure that Te Mana o te Wai obligations are engaged upon; it's also making regulations for a constitution and decisions relating to joint venture services and entity arrangements and also in relation to the creation of statements of intent asset management plans funding and pricing plans infrastructure strategies. Those are all the areas within the bill that there are engagement provisions that enable us to ensure that not only local voice is listened to but they are contributing to the direction and the operational challenge that these water service entities will have."