Logie Jan; Carter DavidJAN LOGIE (Green): On a rather different note I want to talk about the abuse of children in State care. We know that in New Zealand between the 1950s and the 1980s more than 100000 children were taken from their families and not only because they were not safe with their families but because at times their families were poor or their mother was a solo mother or blatant racism. These children were put into residences. Over half of these children were Māori and that has had a profound impact on the future the collective future of iwi across this country because so many of those children—we hear—were abused. They were emotionally abused. They were deprived. They were beaten. They had the people who were supposedly taking care of them telling the other children to beat them and were beaten in front of the people who were given the authority to care for them. These children were sexually abused and I have heard from some people horrific stories of electricity being used to abuse these babies—who were in our collective care as a country.The impact of that on us as a society is not understood. This is 100000 children potentially who were either directly impacted or who saw that happening around them. We have had no process as a country for those stories to be told for us to hear and for us to understand. We have heard from our Children's Commissioner that I think 83 percent of people in our prisons at the moment have at some time been in care. The impact of this is so deeply profound and we are not talking about it. I am not sheeting this home in this speech solely to this National Government. That would be ridiculous. I do want to say that this first started to be talked about when people went to lawyers to try to get their cases addressed—that is my understanding—in the 2000s and that that process was fraught. In fact when the first cases went to court in 2006 it was the full weight of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) and the Ministry of Health and the range of ministries against these people who had been abused in care. I just want to take a minute for people to think about that—that the weight of our State stood against these people trying to get recognition for what harm had been done to them. Then in 2008 the main law firm that was supporting these people had its legal aid withdrawn from it. How extraordinary is that—to try to shut down the process? It was only when the Human Rights Commission and then international attention came on to this—this absolute shame—that we got this Confidential Listening and Assistance Service which is not independent.Hon Anne Tolley: What?JAN LOGIE: It is impartial—we hear from the Minister for Social Development—but it is not independent. It is still run by the State across—Hon Anne Tolley: It wasn't. It was run by a judge—an independent panel.JAN LOGIE: It was run by a judge but you went through MSD. Hon Anne Tolley: No.JAN LOGIE: The system is—Hon Anne Tolley: No it didn't—DIA.JAN LOGIE: The judge herself has said she wants an independent system that this is not independent and that—Hon Anne Tolley: Just check your facts. Go to the website and download it.JAN LOGIE: —we do need an independent—well you can say it is impartial but we do not have independence. People have not come forward—I have spoken to many people who have not come to the system because they do not want to go to the State. They perceive it as the State. The Minister can sit there and shake her head but if you are not referencing your experience to theirs then you are part of the problem.Hon Anne Tolley: Me or you?JAN LOGIE: Minister—Minister—this should be grounded in their experience. And the Minister has been seen to be protecting the institution of the State rather than addressing the needs of these people who have been so so unfairly harmed by this State. When Judge Henwood has said that the Minister—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member's time has expired.