Duynhoven Harry: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
Duynhoven Harry: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
[Volume:640;Page:10517] 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Energy) 
: 
 Well it is a pleasure to follow the former deputy leader of the National Party a member who very briefly held that role. Can I just say a few things to the member and correct a few of the myths he has been portraying here for us tonight. 
First of all the member must remember that New Zealand has the third-highest level of renewables in the world and we are going to build on that. The country with the highest level of renewable energy in the world is Norway with 110 percent. Why 110 percent? Because it exports electricity from its hydro systems. The country with the second-highest level of renewable energy is Iceland. Why Iceland? Because it has a huge geothermal resource it widely uses. And we—I say to Dr Smith for his information—are third in the world. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: And we’re going down! 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: No no. The member of course counts all sorts of interesting things in his calculation. He very conveniently forgets that the vast majority of the coal mined in New Zealand is exported and that other countries use it. Is mining and exporting coal a good activity? Well if one is a steel maker in Korea one might get— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: The figures I have quoted are of New Zealand’s use of coal and not of exported coal so I seek leave to table today’s energy statistics that list New Zealand’s burning of coal and not that which is exported. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: We will take that tabling but you should not interrupt the speaker for that purpose. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: The Minister was making claims that were quite false. The Minister was making a claim that the figures I had quoted included coal that was exported. That is incorrect. The New Zealand energy figures today refer to consumption and they are the figures I seek leave to table. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection? There is. 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: The level of coal use in New Zealand—just for the benefit of the member—is actually down. The level of coal use in New Zealand to generate electricity is down. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: No it’s not! 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: Well that is what the officials tell me. Dr Smith can seek leave to table what he likes. Can I suggest that as I did not interrupt Dr Smith from close range during his speech he does me the same courtesy . I say to the member that carbon neutrality has always been a long-term goal. I find it very interesting that he keeps asking when Labour will tell everyone the time we will reach carbon neutrality. 
Well I have a question for the member and for every National member here. Would National if elected pull out of the Kyoto Protocol agreement? That is the critical question because National makes lots of noise about the protocol. Members should remember that the Hon Simon Upton a former very distinguished National Minister signed the Kyoto Protocol agreement on behalf of New Zealand. But Dr Smith talks about how energy use is going up and how New Zealand is being less efficient in terms of the percentage of renewables etc. 
There is a very good reason for that and more than any other member I am aware of it because I come from the energy province of New Zealand Taranaki. In Taranaki we know that in the entire period of the National Government extremely little exploration—it is going down every year—was done in the oil and gas industry. Why is that important? That is important because the massive Maui gasfield we all knew had a finite life. We have actually extended its life a little in my time as the responsible Minister. But leaving that to one side I tell members that the problem is that if we run out of gas we have to keep our electricity system going. We are using gas at Huntly the largest thermal power station in New Zealand—the only coal-fired power station in New Zealand. So why has coal use gone up in the term of this Government? It has gone up because there was insufficient gas to continue running the Huntly power station on gas and therefore that station has reverted to using coal. Thank God there was the ability for it to be dual-fuelled. 
What else have we done? The Government-owned company Genesis has built E3P on the site of the Huntly gas-fired power station—which is now largely coal-fired—and that particular project has increased the efficiency of the Huntly power station and reduced the need for the burning of gas coal and other fossil fuels. Why has electricity consumption gone up in the period of this Government? The answer is very simple. We have a massive increase in the economy a massive increase in productivity and a massive increase in the use of energy. So I want to tell Dr Smith that if he cannot answer the question of whether National will stay in the Kyoto Protocol— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Yes. 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: National will stay in the Kyoto Protocol? That is the first time we have heard that. I will tell members what Mr Key the current leader of the National Party has said about the Kyoto Protocol. First of all in regard to climate change he said: “This is a complete and utter hoax if I may say so.” I am quoting John Key. He asked next what would happen down the track on emissions. He then said that the Kyoto Protocol was not a good idea for the people of New Zealand. Those are all quotes from Mr John Key the current leader of the National Party. 
Dr Smith has made a lot of noise about the Resource Management Act. I tell the member that Project Aqua which he claims was scuttled because of the Resource Management Act actually had nothing to do with that Act. Project Aqua that proposed hydro project was actually scrapped— 
Colin King 
: I think it did have something to do with it Minister. 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: No I am sorry. It was actually scrapped for a very good financial reason. The cost of building it grew greatly because of the fact that it was suddenly discovered that miles and miles of concrete culverts had to be built and the loss of water that would have escaped from the project when diversion canals were built and then used to make the project work would have been so high that the loss was unacceptable. It was discovered that all the channels of those canals actually had to be concreted. I am reasonably familiar with this sort of engineering; I have a Dutch background and I know just how expensive that engineering is. 
I also say that there are only so many places in which one can build major hydro dams. If the Government is using its thermal resources in New Zealand to generate electricity it makes real sense to try to establish as much alternative production of energy as we can. That is why in the time of this Government I have personally opened one wind farm in the Tararuas. As well three more projects are under way—three large wind projects are in train—Makara Mahinerangi and Project Hayes. They are all on the way and are all going to produce energy for this country. 
We have repeatedly said that New Zealand like every other country that has a fossil fuel base for its energy will be reliant on fossil fuels for some time yet. Those who import our fossil fuel resources—our oil our gas if they are importing gas; they are not yet but maybe in the future they will be and that is one of the purposes of the Great South Basin—are responsible for the thermal resource. But if people are burning New Zealand coal in Korea is that a good thing or a bad thing? It is a good thing if the other coal they might use is vastly less good for the production of steel because our coal is the best steel-making coal in the world. How good is our coal? The largest coal-exporting port in our part of the world— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Is it carbon neutral? 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: If the little member would be quiet for a while he might learn something. 
The largest coal-exporting port in our part of the world is Newcastle in Australia. Our coal our high-quality thermal steel-making coal is so good that we export coal from the West Coast of New Zealand to—where? It goes to Newcastle in Australia the largest steel-producing area in our part of the world and the largest coal-exporting port in our part of the world. Why would Australians import New Zealand coal if they have the largest coal-exporting port in our part of the world? They import it because it is such good coal for the basic steel-making process that it reduces the need to burn inferior-quality coal. 
I tell Dr Smith that that is why it is important that we keep these things in perspective. Dr Smith is an engineer a professional engineer and I would expect logic from a professional engineer. I would expect a professional engineer such as Dr Smith who is professionally trained to use his brain for the good of this country and not to slag the things that have to be done. 
I do not like the fact that we have to burn more coal in Huntly and that we do not have the gas to do it. I would have liked the National Government to be a bit more responsible and get some oil and gas exploration under way so that we could have discovered some more gas resource in order that we did not have to burn coal in the Huntly power station. But I tell Dr Smith that we have done that. We have been doing the things that make sense in terms of climate change. 
We have been doing those things anyway. We have been putting in place insulation in houses. We have been putting in place solar water heating. The National Party members are baying at me because they know the truth. They know they did nothing. They know they sat on their hands not only in the time of the last National Government but even worse in the Muldoon era and there are probably still a few refugees such as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith from that era. 
We want our children to have a world that is in as good a state as or in a better state than the one we inherited. I have small children. I want them to inherit a better world than we have now. But National members argue that we should scrap the Resource Management Act. What will that do for the environment? The National Government—which passed the Resource Management Act by the way in 1991—had 9 years in Government and did not change the Act at all but its members ever since have bayed that the Resource Management Act is a problem. 
We have a whole bunch of initiatives going on right now. I could spend a lot of time reading them but I want to say that we have a responsibility to keep New Zealand functioning and to be aspirational and lead to the future in terms of going to a carbon-neutral future sometime in the future. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: When? 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: I tell Dr Smith that no one can tell because nobody knows how big the wind farms will be able to be how big our energy efficiency programmes can be and all those things. All I am telling Dr Smith is that it is really simple. If he stops heckling and stops being rude for a while we might get somewhere. 
I want to say to members that I take my responsibility—[ 
Interruption 
] I am sorry but Sandra Goudie is a very rude woman and she should be quiet. I tell members that I want to see a world for my children where they inherit things in better shape than the things we had. Part of that temporarily is that we are burning more fossil fuel. I tell Dr Smith that that is correct because we have no other hook to hang our hat on. But I tell members that as time goes on we will get more efficient we will get more energy efficiency in place— 
Sandra Goudie 
: But we aren’t—that’s the point. 
Hon HARRY DUYNHOVEN 
: —I tell Sandra Goudie that we are I am sorry—and we will get more insulated homes in place. We are hearing a whole lot of noise from National members and it is like static on a short-wave radio. They are talking about scrapping the Resource Management Act. They keep throwing up these issues as red herrings. The very simple fact is that we have an economy that is producing and using more electricity. There was no forward planning. There was no oil and gas exploration for the longer term. We are now seeing a considerable advance on that. We are seeing oil and gas exploration producing resources for this country. It means we will need less coal to be burnt in electricity generation and the end goal is to have an economy that is viable and dynamic—as we have—but that uses less energy to be so. That is a huge challenge particularly when we have not done the background work—and National left us exactly in that spot. It mucked up the electricity system. It mucked up comprehensively in terms of oil and gas exploration. 
What we will see as time goes on is a country that gets more efficient as we put these solutions in place. We will see a country that takes its responsibilities seriously in relation to the Kyoto Protocol. We will not hear the double-talk from the Labour Party that we have heard from the National Party over these issues and we are still hearing it. The emperor has clothes according to the National Party; it has not learnt the lessons. 
We have to continue down a path that will see for New Zealand an energy-secure future a dynamic economy and jobs for our people. We have achieved on most of these things and as well we have to ensure that our responsibilities under the Kyoto Protocol—which I remind members was signed up by a National Minister—are going forward to a day where we can make the best use of our resources and ensure that our children have a future that is more sound more environmentally sustainable and in better shape than that we unfortunately had to inherit. 
I want to be part of that. I want to ensure that this Government is doing the right things—and so far we have done pretty well when we consider the mess we inherited. I know that my time is almost up on this particular call. I will wait and see what National members have to say and I just might come back for another call. Thank you.