Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:616;Page:12435] 
3.  
GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Will the Government be introducing legislation before the Easter adjournment which will affirm Crown ownership of the seabed and foreshore? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
:  
Yes. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Prime Minister accept that the Government’s bill will result in the vast proportion of New Zealand’s foreshore and seabed having an ancestral connection with Maori and therefore being subject to kaitiakitanga or governance by Maori? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The reality is that there is an ancestral connection between Maori and many if not most parts of the New Zealand coastline. That association is something that needs to be taken into account. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is it the Government’s expectation that when this legislation goes before the select committee some members of this House known to oppose this legislation may put the interests of the nation before their narrow sectional political interests? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is true that on this issue there has been a distinct difference between those who have been prepared to work for a solution and those who just want to stir the pot. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: What advice has the Prime Minister received on whether including the words “public domain” alongside Crown title will make any legal or practical difference and can she further confirm that regardless of those words the next Government will be able to sell any part of the foreshore or seabed with a simple majority of Parliament? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is a well-established convention here that no Parliament can bind another. My understanding is that the term “public domain” did not have particular legal effect. It was an attempt to be more inclusive about what was there for the people of New Zealand. 
Stephen Franks 
: Why has the Government announced that Maori will get an ancestral connection based on historical association when neither term was mentioned by the Court of Appeal let alone offered as a justification for the grant to one race of decision making or governance powers over any beaches? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The fact that it was not mentioned by the Court of Appeal is not a reason for not making some provision for recognition in legislation that is establishing a new regime over the foreshore and seabed. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does this bill with its new jurisdiction for the Maori Land Court and special Resource Management Act provisions for Maori deliver co-management of almost the entire coastline to Maori as specified and required by the Hon Parekura Horomia? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The reference to Maori in terms of resource management goes back to the 1991 Resource Management Act passed by the previous National Government. I think the answer to the second part of the question is no. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I know you cannot be responsible for the quality of answers but you can be responsible for there being an answer. The Prime Minister took a very specific question relating to the information given to us this morning by Dr Cullen on the special new provisions being provided under the Resource Management Act to Maori in this bill and to the fact that the Minister of Maori Affairs had told the House some weeks previously that that was what he wanted. Surely there can be a much better answer than to say that it goes back to 1991. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well there was. The Prime Minister in her last comment said “no”. I cannot think of any more specific answer. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I seek leave to table the Government’s statement that specifically stated it will amend the Resource Management Act to extend the protection of rights for Maori. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There is usually a convention in this House that when a member seeks to table a document he or she at least has the courtesy to wait until the question is over. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is absolutely correct—that is the convention. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: On the question of Crown ownership on the question of equality of rights in respect of customary rights and on the question of access to the same court when there is a dispute is it not the case that this bill now reflects one law for all? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: One of the additions to the bill as requested by the leader of New Zealand First and his party was that the ability to apply for a customary right should be available irrespective of ethnicity. 
Heather Roy 
: What rights will Maori lose under this proposed seabed and foreshore legislation and what rights will Maori gain? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: There was an unintended consequence of the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act that the Court of Appeal opened up which was the ability to take a claim all the way through from customary land to freehold title and fee simple. It is not this Government’s intention to allow new exclusive private property rights to be created over these areas. In respect of what rights Maori will gain there is more specific reference to ancestral connection and it is something on which the consultation provisions in the Resource Management Act should be based. As well as that there is more clarity around the High Court’s role when it comes to issues of aboriginal title being raised. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Prime Minister agree with the earlier assertion in the House by the Hon Margaret Wilson that a customary right is a property right and can she tell the House for certain that the customary rights that this bill will give to Maori alongside the special Resource Management Act provisions that this bill proposes do not create two standards of citizenship in this country? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I said in an earlier answer there is the ability for anyone who believes he or she can establish continuity of use since before 6 February 1840 to apply for a customary right. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I did not ask a question about the application that one may pursue for customary rights. I asked whether the Prime Minister agreed with one of her Ministers who said that a customary right is a property right. I asked whether the special Resource Management Act provisions in this bill will apply to that property right and as suggested whether that means this Government is pursuing the line of two standards of citizenship: one for Maori and one for non-Maori. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Could the Prime Minister add something to her question? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: A customary right is a property right. A customary right can be applied for by anybody who believes that he or she can demonstrate continuity of use since before 6 February 1840. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is irrelevant who can apply. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Gerry Brownlee 
: No no Mr Speaker. You must insist that this House gets good information. The Prime Minister cannot dodge this question. We have been told today—if we are to believe everything that is in the information given to us by Dr Cullen are to accept the word of the Hon Margaret Wilson and are to follow the text inside the Government’s own handout—that we will see the creation of property rights and will see special provisions under the Resource Management Act applied to those property rights and that they are exclusively for Maori. To suggest that anyone other than a Maori can claim a customary right pre-1840 is a load of rubbish. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is making a political point. The Speaker does not tell Ministers how to answer questions. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Would the Prime Minister confirm first that now the bill has the objective and is in fact capable of realising that objective that where any right exists it is nevertheless not an exclusive right so it has to be shared with the rest of the country and second—[ 
Interruption 
] I am trained in law and the member is not—OK? I— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I know that. I am just about to rule. I will not have any comment made during the asking of questions or members will leave the Chamber—and the next member to do so will leave. That is my final warning. Please start the question again. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Will the Prime Minister confirm first that where any right does exist it will not be an exclusive right and therefore the asset or resource has to be shared with everybody else and second that what is new is that in respect of the High Court resolution Maori and non-Maori appear there as equals which was not previously the case under the 1991 Act passed by National—and the 1993 Act? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Yes people do appear as equals before the High Court. While there may well be specific use rights that are granted or recognised that does not mean that the average Kiwi including myself cannot wander down to the beach and do what he or she has always done. We will be able to do that. 
Deborah Coddington 
: What rights will non-Maori lose under this proposed seabed and foreshore legislation and what rights will non-Maori gain? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am hard-pressed to think of any rights that non-Maori would lose. In respect of gain the gain is the certainty that we are all able to access and enjoy those areas freely. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Why is the Government telling the public they have got through the Crown ownership of the foreshore and seabed but is telling Maori that they have kaitiakitanga or control and is that not another example—[ 
Interruption 
] Why are Government members laughing at that? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: A comment was also made by the member’s own colleague. Please carry on with the question. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Why is the Government telling the public that they have ownership of the foreshore and seabed but telling Maori they have kaitiakitanga or control and is that not another example of the Government saying one thing to Maori and another thing to non-Maori? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I do not think one can be clearer than saying that the full legal and beneficial ownership resides with the Crown. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that what non-Maori have gained and uniquely gained are the rights to appear via their counsel at the Maori Land Court and to appeal from it both of which are new rights and third the right to make a customary claim—for example for the Auckland regatta which has been going since 1840—which is something that is new in this legislation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What is new and what has been presented today is the ability of anyone who can prove that continuity of use to be able to claim a customary right. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Will the Prime Minister seek leave to have the debate and the vote on the first reading of the Government’s foreshore legislation tomorrow rather than wait until after the Easter adjournment or is it the reality that the Government is not sure it has the votes for this measure? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government does have the support to introduce this bill and have a first reading on it. I had not planned on seeking leave for that tomorrow. It may be tempting to do so. However I think that people want time to study the bill. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Can she confirm to the House that once that bill is passed New Zealanders who want to build a jetty put in a slipway or build a boatshed will no longer need to go to their relevant local authority for permission to do so but rather they will simply have to contact the relevant iwi hapu or whanau because this bill gives those groups exemption from the Resource Management Act in those matters? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: No that is ridiculous and if the National Party has to resort to that sort of nonsense to find reasons to vote against the bill there is obviously not very much wrong with it. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I seek leave of the House to table the Government’s own briefing paper which makes it very clear that Maori who have an ancestral connection to the foreshore and seabed around this country do have some exclusions from the Resource Management Act. 
Document not tabled. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table the speech made at Orewa this year on 27 January where one asserted—by way of borrowing it of course—the case of “one rule for all; one law for everybody”. 
Document not tabled. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I seek leave to table the Rt Hon Winston Peters’ reaction to “one law for all” in which he described it as the view of a colonial tea planter. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There is. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Everyone knows that I described the appearance at Ratana Pa wearing a panama hat as looking like a colonial tea planter. Mr Prebble again is wrong.