Borrows Chester: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
Borrows Chester: Estimates Debate — In Committee 
[Volume:648;Page:17486] 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 I just want to make a few points in relation to the Serious Fraud Office (Abolition and Transitional Provisions) Bill and some of the precursors to it. We must remember that in about September last year this issue was raised when the Law and Order Committee was reviewing the— 
Hon David Benson-Pope 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is my understanding that Vote Serious Fraud has actually been dealt with earlier under Dr Cullen’s chairmanship. It was certainly voted on. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: If that is the case then the member needs to come to— 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: I ask for a point of clarification Mr Chair. The Minister was talking about the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand. That relates to organised crime and to serious fraud as a part of it so I was addressing that matter. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I just say that this is a vote about justice and although one member may respond to another member’s comments it does not actually mean that it comes into the debate. The member needs to talk to Vote Justice. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: Thank you Mr Chair. In relation to the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of the police and its investigation of serious fraud as it relates to organised crime points have been made in respect of the way in which that works. The select committee heard from the New Zealand Police last week and the week before about how they intend that agency to work. But an interesting point was raised by the police— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the member but I ask whether he is doing this under the Police vote. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: Vote Justice. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member is doing this under Vote Justice? 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: Yes. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Well the member is starting to stray into the Police vote which is the next one. I urge the member to try to speak strictly to the Justice vote. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: The Minister was speaking in relation to that legislation and the work that was being done by the Ministry of Justice in relation to addressing organised crime in New Zealand. That will be worked out by the Organised and Financial Crime Agency so it is a Ministry of Justice initiative that is being operated through the police—that is the point that I was making. 
In respect of Serious Fraud Office assistance in working on organised crime the point was made by the police that a number of the investigations they have run have been addressing organised crime but they have had a serious fraud aspect to them. The problem we have in respect of that is that the Serious Fraud Office is being disestablished as part of a Ministry of Justice initiative. Members will recall that that was announced in September last year at a time when that initiative was travelling through the select committee process and was with the Law and Order Committee. We found out after questioning Serious Fraud Office officials that the Serious Fraud Office was advised that this could happen only 2 weeks before. 
The fear we have in respect of that is the derogation of powers moving away from serious fraud investigation through this Ministry of Justice initiative at a time when mum and dad investors are losing millions and millions of dollars through financial investments. This is removing Serious Fraud Office investigations to the New Zealand Police at a time when the police by their own admission are doing a very poor job in relation to fraud investigations. 
Ron Mark 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I know that you were quite distracted so you may not have heard the content of the speech but we are now straying into a depth of matters relating to the Serious Fraud Office which the member had every opportunity to speak to earlier in the day. I simply ask that the rules apply to everybody. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I thank the member. For the benefit of members if members look to page 177 of the Budget 2008 Estimates of Appropriations they will see that it talks about policy advice. It states: “This appropriation is limited to policy advice legal advice and research and evaluation in relation to civil criminal and constitutional law foreshore and seabed policy and treaty negotiation advice and providing agreed services to the Minister of Justice Minister for Courts and the Minister in Charge of Treaty Negotiations.” If the member can bring his speech within those guidelines then he can continue; it is fine. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: I am always happy to learn Mr Chair and I look forward to encouraging this debate when we move on to police matters. 
Vote agreed to.