Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:615;Page:11381] 
11.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: What does he believe customary title confers? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 No more or no less than that left to me and my whanau by my tupuna. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Trying to put some flesh on that answer— 
Hon Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is really inappropriate for people to laugh about language or issues they do not understand. That is highly rude and offensive. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I urge all members to take care when they are making any comment whatsoever about anyone else and I think the point of order has some merit. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I heard you say that you thought that point of order from Tariana Turia had some merit. That challenges a member’s right to ask a question in this House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No please be seated. I was not referring to either the question or the answer. I was referring to extraneous comments made during the answer—not comments made by the member. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In endeavouring to expand on the Minister’s reply does he believe that customary title granted over the foreshore and seabed confers the right of special consideration in matters such as resource management applications or marine permit applications that other New Zealanders who do not hold those customary titles do not enjoy; if so why? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No. I would ask that member and other members who like to deny their Maori whakapapa to read the deliveries that we have developed. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is not often I take a point of order like this but I have no idea what that answer meant. Maybe the translator from Maori could give us a better idea of that answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well I heard the member’s first word which was “No.” I think I understand that and that was a direct answer to the question. The member said “No.” I heard the word “No” and I checked that with an authority close to me. I heard him say “No.” You cannot get a more direct answer than that. 
Mahara Okeroa 
: Why is the Government continuing to have discussions on this proposal? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The foreshore and seabed proposal is significant and complex. It is of major importance especially to Maori and certainly to all New Zealanders. We are committed to getting it right rather than to assuming and making brash divisive statements. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister accept that some of us in this House are very keen to understand what he means—[ 
Interruption 
] Who said that? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please be seated. I heard an inappropriate comment from a member. I want that member to stand withdraw and apologise for it and then he will leave the House. Please stand withdraw and apologise. 
Mahara Okeroa 
: I stand withdraw and apologise. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Please leave the House. 
Mahara Okeroa 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. There is no point of order. I have asked the member to leave and he will obey my instruction. 
Mahara Okeroa withdrew from the Chamber. 
David Parker 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I heard the words uttered. I was close by and the words uttered were: “Who said that?”. I do not understand the offence that could be taken from that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do because I said there were to be no interjections during questions. I have given a warning already today and my word will be taken. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister accept that some of us in this House are interested in knowing more about—as the question originally asked—his views on what a customary title confers and could he then please expand on the answer he gave originally this afternoon? 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In the interests of consistency before you call the Minister I advise you that we had Dr Mapp interjecting. Does he get to stay in the House? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I did not hear Dr Mapp interject. Did he interject? 
Dr Wayne Mapp 
: I did not interject. I may have said something to my colleague. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I did not hear the member interject. If he said he did not I take his word. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I am more than appreciative that a lot of people want to understand this better. So do a lot of Maori. A customary title enables the title-holder to participate in the Resource Management Act processes and to apply for customary right which is a property right. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: What is the Minister’s response to the comments made today by the Treaty Tribes Coalition that the Government’s handling of the whole foreshore and seabed issue has made Maori and Pakeha bitterly angry and is now “harming race relations dividing New Zealand and undermining the rule of law.”? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Kare e tika e tu ake ano au i te whai takahia mo ratou mai i te motu. E tika ake ano to ratou whakaaro. Kare ki a koe e taea ki te patai ki a wau he aha ke toku whakaaro mo tera tino korero o nga rangatira mai i te motu. 
 [An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
[ 
It would be wrongful of me to stand up again and be discourteous to those from the land. What they think is absolutely right. It is not for you to ask me what I really think about that profound statement made by those chiefs 
.] 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That answer did not appear to address the question that I asked. If the Minister would like me to repeat the question I would be happy to do so. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the Minister did address the question by stating that he did not agree with the comments. That was the interpretation of the first part of the answer. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Your Maori may well be better than mine— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is not. 
Rodney Hide 
: If Mr Cunliffe is going to sit there and chip— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Mr Cunliffe will leave the Chamber. 
Hon David Cunliffe withdrew from the Chamber. 
Rodney Hide 
: I did not hear the Minister say that he did not agree with the comments made by the Treaty Tribes Coalition. You have said that he did and I am at a loss because it seems to me that we now have two replies. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any assistance on this matter. I interpreted what the Minister said to mean that and I therefore assess that he addressed the question. He most certainly did. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have ruled on the point of order. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I understand from the Minister and from some of the other members in the House that the interpretation was not quite as full as it could have been and I ask whether the Minister could have permission to reinterpret the comments. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: He does not need it but it would be helpful to all if he did. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It is important for me as a Maori—understanding that those revered elders are in the gallery at present—not to respond to a testing question by a person like that that is really of tikanga relevance. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member must not refer to people sitting in the gallery because that brings them into the debate. The only people involved in the Chamber are the 120 members who are sitting here and who—I want to say—are entitled to sit here. I say to the Minister that perhaps he could rephrase his answer without referring to anybody in the gallery. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We are now in a very difficult situation. We had an answer by the Minister of Maori Affairs in Maori. We then had an interpretation of what he said. Mr Mallard said that the interpretation of the answer was not a full interpretation so we know that we have not heard the full answer. We then had the Minister of Maori Affairs offer in English what he said in Maori which was completely different to the interpretation that we had. We have had three answers—all different—to the one question. How can that help the House? 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: That point of order—and my understanding is that Maori is a language that is capable of a range of interpretation into English which is one of the problems with the treaty—is irrelevant because you ruled the answer out of order and required the Minister to give a different one. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: This may be a new point of order. I will let you judge that Mr Speaker. It arises out of this issue and I think it is something you will have to go away and consider. We have a situation where a Minister has used as is his right the opportunity to give an answer in Maori. The interpretation has then been given and another member has said—or the Minister whispered to him—that the interpretation to quote Mr Mallard was not “as full as it could have been”. Permission was given—which did not need to be given—for the Minister to interpret his own answer. I would like a considered ruling from the Speaker on when the onus is on a member who speaks in Maori to correct an interpretation. We do get into a difficult situation—particularly in question time when Ministers if they give an incorrect answer have to come to the Chamber at the first opportunity to correct it—when an answer is given in Maori and the Minister deems that it was not interpreted correctly. At what point should the Minister be required to give the correct interpretation? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The last point the member raised is a slightly new one. I will go away and think about that. He has asked me to do that and I will certainly do so. The interpretation is not necessarily a full one. The Minister accepted an invitation to elaborate on it not to interpret it and no one is obliged to do that. But I will have a look at the whole issue over the weekend. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My point of order is really about procedure. Quite clearly when the Minister spoke in Maori he referred to a member on the Opposition side of the House in the second person. We know when we speak in the House in English that we are not allowed to use the second person because we are referring to you as the Speaker. We have a critical situation now because members—and rightly so—are able to use the Maori language and the same rules should apply. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any help on this. I ask the Minister of Maori Affairs whether he did refer to me in the second person in his answer. Could he indicate whether he did or did not do so? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I did refer to and I mentioned in the interpretation “that person”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: “That person”—not referring specifically to me as “you”? I accept that. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: The point is that he used the term “you”. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If he used the term “you” he was out of order no matter whether he spoke in English or in Maori. But he said he did not. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am sorry to drag this on but I seek clarification. In the Minister’s answer in English he said that he would not respond to my question. I thought that the point of question time is that Ministers are required to respond to the question asked. I seek your clarification on that issue Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is elaboration. Perhaps if the Minister wants to make any further comment he can do so. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is an important issue. I draw your attention to Standing Order 370(1) which supports the reasoning of my colleague Muriel Newman in that the only answer she received was that the Minister would not answer whereas Standing Order 370(1) clearly states: “An answer that seeks to address the question asked must be given if it can be given consistently with the public interest.” I would have thought that the issue in question here is certainly consistent with the public interest. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I repeat that the answer was ruled out of order in any case but even so that judgment about what is in the public interest must lie with Ministers. No one else can make that judgment about what is or is not in the public interest in the nature of the answer. That has been clear at all times with regard to that particular Standing Order. If I can elaborate the answer given related to the fact that persons in the gallery were responsible for the statement. Because of the member’s feeling and respect for those people he would therefore not respond to the question. That was ruled out of order. Surely it is time to move on from an answer that has been already ruled out of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I ruled that the Minister’s original answer did address the question. When he elaborated that was out of order and I ruled it so. This is going too far. 
Stephen Franks 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that in response to an earlier point of order by the Hon Peter Dunne you indicated that you would consider the extent to which the Speaker can or should make a judgment on whether a question has been addressed. I ask you to consider the Deputy Prime Minister’s comment and to give an indication as to whether that is an approach—or whether there is any element of that approach—you will favour. If Dr Cullen is correct in saying that the Speaker must leave it to the Minister’s judgment as to whether a matter is in the public interest—when Mr Horomia patently said that he will not answer a question as relevant for everyone as the question about the foreshore and seabed—then there is no meaning to Standing Order 370(1). 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have been asked by Mr Sowry to give a considered ruling to this and I will over the weekend. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want to continue with the point of order that I was making before because the Minister when he was speaking in Maori clearly used the Maori word for “you”. He then said in his translation that it was “that person”. My question—and I think we need to sort this out—is: do the rules that apply to us when we deliver answers in English apply in the same way when delivery is in Maori? The question is not a put-down or anything else. It is purely and simply about getting clarification. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The answer is yes. I have already ruled that way. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that with all due respect to members who have raised issues about who said what and whether it was appropriate in one language or another the real point is that the Minister told the House that he would not answer because he did not want to offend people who are in the gallery. That cannot be accepted as an acceptable answer to the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That was his elaboration. I have ruled it out of order. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: It was not an elaboration; it was a translation of the answer he gave to the House. Surely an answer cannot be: “I am not going to answer you because I may offend people in the gallery.” Surely the Minister must now address the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The original question was addressed and I allowed the answer. The other matter was out of order and I did not allow it. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have a very serious situation in front of us. The Minister himself said that the translation he gave in English was not full. He said something in Maori and people who cannot speak Maori did not know what it meant. He was then invited by you Mr Speaker to give the full translation. He stood up and said that he was not prepared to give an answer because of people in the gallery. I assume that that is not what he said in Maori the first time. I suspect that we have a Minister who is prepared to say some things in the House in Maori and is not prepared to have them said in English. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The interpretation was given. The Minister then elaborated and the elaboration was ruled out of order. He was not obliged to elaborate so it does not affect his original answer which stands. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: In view of the Minister’s response to my primary question when he clearly stated that customary title does not confer special consideration to any holder that is not held by all New Zealanders could he tell the House whether this whole issue is just one big smokescreen and whether the country is tearing itself apart for no good reason because of the duplicity and constant changes that his Government is making in regard to this issue? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There were about three questions there. The Minister will address two of them. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: This Government’s policies are the same as they were before. It is being consistent to ensure that it recognises the rights of all New Zealanders. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can you give us some clarification of the interpretation of the Minister’s response? The Minister made a comment in Maori and it was interpreted. Then during the course of the discussion Mr Mallard said that the interpretation was not as full and as accurate as it should have been and suggested that the Minister might give his own interpretation which he did. That was then ruled out of order so does that mean that the interpretation given by the interpreter now stands? I want to know what we are going to have in the records. What is correct and what is— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes. It does stand as an interpretation and it addressed the question. 
John Carter 
: Even so the Minister has said that it is not a full and accurate reflection. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister did not say that at all. Parekura Horomia did not say that at all. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I seek leave at this time to table two documents. One is a letter written by me to the Hon Parekura Horomia asking for a briefing from his departmental officials. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I seek leave to table a reply from the Hon Parekura Horomia declining such a briefing. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I think that we have not resolved this issue. Could I make a helpful suggestion Mr Speaker? You undertook to consider another matter over the weekend. Could I suggest that in response to question No. 11—and the various interpretations and lack of responses that we have had—you consider that over the weekend and listen to the Hansard tapes to see whether in fact the interpretation that you have just given to the House is the correct one. I understand there is considerable confusion but it would be helpful if you would do that and report back to us next week. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is a point of order and I am ruling on it. I have said that I will come with a ruling in answer to the question made by the Hon Roger Sowry. I refer Mr Shirley to Speaker’s ruling 34/5. 
Ron Mark 
: I will try to be helpful Mr Speaker. As I sit here as an observer not partaking in any of the discussion can I share with you an observation that you might bear in mind when you are making those deliberations? The first observation is that it is not often that we have an MP stand up and immediately make a statement in Maori and carry it on through. That tends to catch the parliamentary staff a little unawares. If that statement is lengthy there is a possibility that the staff required to stand up and interpret may not in fact get the full gist of the message. I think on some occasions it is likely and very possible that we may not get an exact interpretation and that makes it very hard for you as the Speaker to judge whether people have been outside the Standing Orders because you may not have received an exact interpretation which other people who are more fluent in Maori may have. That creates a problem. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for that helpful suggestion. I refer him to Speaker’s ruling 34/5. I will certainly consider what he is saying. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: You have referred the House to Speaker’s ruling 34/5. You did not tell us what it said. It says that regardless of the translation given in the House when  
Hansard 
 is recorded a translation will be made for incorporation into  
Hansard 
. If when the translation of the statement in Maori was made for  
Hansard 
 it were to differ from the translation given in the House and that different translation were to be out of order how do you then handle that matter when you have ruled that the translation in the House was in order yet a translation that goes into  
Hansard  
may be out of order? How would you handle that circumstance? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If it is out of order I will come back to the House and announce so.