Moroney Sue: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeMoroney Sue: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 20 August 2015. Volume:707;Page:6025. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]8.SUE MORONEY (Labour) to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: Why are dairy sheep and beef farms not defined as high-risk workplaces requiring worker health and safety representation when more than one-third of New Zealand’s workplace deaths in the past 5 years have happened in the agricultural sector?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety): Firstly risk is one of two factors—size being the other. Dairy sheep and beef farms with 20 or more staff will be required to have a health and safety representative if requested. As I tabled in the House yesterday the risk criteria used to consult on high-risk industries include industries with a fatality rate greater than 25 per 100000 and a serious injury rate of more than 25 per 1000. Although sheep beef and dairy are very large in the statistics they are also our largest industries so when equalised they fell below that threshold.Sue Moroney: What makes a worm farm more dangerous than a cattle farm?Hon Simon Bridges: Trivialising the issues.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The member does trivialise the 11 deaths in the category of other livestock farming of which worm farming is one. There were 11 people killed at work and more than 1000 serious injuries.Grant Robertson: How many were killed on dairy farms? What a stupid argument.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Well the member asks how many were killed on dairy farms. We could stratify this any way we like. We could say that some forestry is in but other forestry is out; some livestock farming is in but other livestock farming is out. We will consult on the taxonomy—[Interruption] We will consult on the taxonomy that has the best available data on where risk resides and we will see what comes out of that consultation.Sue Moroney: Why is minigolf more dangerous than actual golf why is putting up curtains in a building more dangerous than demolishing a building and why is driving a bus full of tourists more dangerous than driving a bus full of schoolchildren?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Well I just explained to the member the process for determining the draft lists. If she wants to provide a submission on that process she is perfectly welcome. But I reiterate what I said in the Committee of the whole House: the fact that an organisation may not be required to have a health and safety representative does not let them off the hook. All persons conducting a business or undertaking (PCBU) and all workers will be required to participate in health and safety at work.Clayton Mitchell: Why is culpability being extended to individuals who are both a PCBU and a worker given that Federated Farmers informed us that most on-farm injuries affect the farmers themselves?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Because the obligation to take practical steps to keep themselves and each other safe at work is for both PCBUs and workers.Sue Moroney: Why should quarries like the limestone quarry where Murray George Taylor was crushed to death in June this year not have access to worker representation on health and safety?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I would need to go back and check but my understanding is that quarries are included under the mining categories.Sue Moroney: Why is he making up dodgy rules to keep National’s backers out of health and safety requirements instead of focusing on fixing New Zealand’s appalling—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! That question is out of order.Denise Roche: Is he concerned that the executive director of the Business Leaders’ Health and Safety Forum Francois Barton has branded the decision to exclude most farming from the high-risk category as disappointing and as sending “the wrong message” to the industry about workplace health and safety?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I have been in constant contact with both the Business Leaders’ Health and Safety Forum and leaders in the farming community and they are very aware of the Government’s expectation that those farming sectors need to improve health and safety at work. Farming does have particular characteristics; among others is the fact that the farm manager and owner is very often working side by side with the workers and therefore representation is not the only way to ensure participation. I am satisfied that these sensible changes will ensure health and safety on farms.Denise Roche: What is the likelihood of health and safety actually being enforced on farms given that two-thirds of dairy farms inspected in the first quarter of this year failed to comply with minimum employment standards like minimum pay rates?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Enforcement is usually in the breach and my very strong desire is that actually before we get to enforcement we get to high levels of compliance. The bill provides a very strong framework for that to occur and I am satisfied that there will be improvements.Denise Roche: Does the Minister agree that telling most farmers that they work in a low-risk industry can only undermine the agricultural sector’s motivation to change in response to the new law; if not why not?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The thresholds are for high risk. There is risk in every industry but we need to make sure that we have a balanced approach that is appropriate for those circumstances. I reiterate that I do not believe that the requirement not to have a health and safety representative is a watering down or is letting people off the hook. Indeed it may well be more difficult not less difficult to comply.