12. Question No. 12—Tertiary Education and SkillsHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and SkillsQuestion No. 12—Tertiary Education and Skills12. Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: Meitaki Mr Speaker. Kia orana koutou katoatoa. Does she stand by her statement that the previous government's Te Pūkenga mega-merger has been nothing but an abject disaster"; if so why?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills): Yes and to name a few reasons why in 2023 all previous Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics of New Zealand (ITPs) individual business units recorded deficits with at least three recording deficits in excess of $20 million and all but two previous ITP individual business units forecasting deficits in 2025. Further international student numbers recovery for Te Pūkenga is behind universities is behind schools and is behind language schools. Overseas no one knows what Te Pūkenga is. Further Te Pūkenga has overseen a 9 percent decline in domestic enrolments. Polytechnics are unable to make decisions about their domestic and international fees. ITPs have been unable to make decisions that meet regional needs of their communities.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Why then in the regulatory impact statement prepared by her own officials does the Minister's preferred option rank as worse than the status quo when it comes to system sustainability and to learner and employer needs?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: There is a consultation document out at the moment for the sector to give their thoughts on. I have taken a range of advice and as well I have relied on the over 30 years that I spent in the sector and so options are there for the sector to submit on.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Why in the regulatory impact statement prepared by her own officials does the Minister's preferred option rank as much worse than the status quo when it comes to implementation cost and complexity and ranks her preferred option overall as worse than the status quo?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: This Government is very focused on ensuring that all regions have access to vocational education and training. We understand that it is a pathway to employment for individuals such as school leavers and those returning to the workforce. It is absolutely critical that options that we look at ensure that regional delivery can occur. The proposal that is out for consultation enables the Open Polytechnic to support those smaller regional polytechnics to be able to maintain that level of provision.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Why is she ignoring the advice of her seven specialist advisers who at a cost of $2000 a day each told her to keep the Te Pūkenga model with some regional groupings?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Well I would note that they were not my specialist advisers; they were Te Pūkenga's specialist advisers and they gave a range of options of which the option that we are consulting on was one.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Isn't it true—SPEAKER: Just wait—just wait for a minute till the House resumes a bit of silence for the question.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Isn't it true that the real abject failure here is a Minister who is so set on protecting her own pet institution that she just doesn't give a damn about the needs of the rest of the country?Rt Hon Winston Peters: Point of order Mr Speaker. You'd think somebody with a modicum of education would not begin by "Isn't it true" but then that soon was compounded by her outrageous sort of venting of her dislike for the Minister and not knowing her subject at the same time.SPEAKER: I tend to agree with the member. There's one question more; you can have that question again if you can ask in a different way and something that goes to the heart of the Minister's portfolio responsibilities.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Why did she tell Radio New Zealand—RNZ—that she had proactively released the advice she received from her seven specialist advisers when she has done no such thing and when will she release the advice?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I noted that it would be proactively released. I wasn't sure if it had been or not and I understand that it's due to be proactively released in the next week. I would note again that they were not my specialist advisers but I would also note that under a new chief executive at Te Pūkenga who has experience in and understanding of the sector a new chair and a clear set of expectations from this Minister Te Pūkenga is at last undertaking the cost-out work and is forecasting a year-to-date surplus for the six months to 30 June 2024 of $28.5 million."