Willis Nicola; Hipkins ChrisNICOLA WILLIS (National): I want to ask about the new licensing process for early learning services that is introduced in this bill. The Minister of Education I understand has introduced these new provisions I think out of a concern that there has been a proliferation in new early learning services. I'm not sure whether that's the case because it hasn't ever been stated explicitly. I have a concern that we have had times in New Zealand's history—in fact even just a decade ago—where we actually had a shortage of early learning service places in many parts of the country and where parents and frankly women in particular were delayed in their ability to return to work when they had young children because they were unable to find early learning places for them.It remains the case today that there are still parts of the country where from time to time there are real shortages of early learning. In fact it is the case sometimes here in Wellington City that people will struggle to find an early learning place for their child at the age that they wish them to commence early learning. So it's in that context that I raise with Minister Hipkins my concern that potentially having this new two-step process which introduces a far higher degree of uncertainty for early learning providers about whether or not a centre may in fact progress may limit the creation of new early learning services in a way that will constrain parents' access to early childhood education. I say that against the backdrop of what the Minister knows is a very complicated process for setting up an early learning service because first you have to battle the Resource Management Act. That's actually the first bit you have to do. You have to get permission from the local council to put an early learning service in and that's no easy thing because there are concerns from neighbours about noise and cars and driveways. Different councils around the country deal with it in different ways but even then once the consent's granted—of course it's appropriate that a licensing step occur where the Ministry of Education approve a licence or not for a service. My concern is that the new two-step process that the Minister's proposing is frankly vague. So I would be interested to hear from the Minister what mitigation he sees to that and also how much discretion he envisages applying in the application of this new two-step process. What are the circumstances in which a new early learning service would have its application for a licence rejected that are different from the current provisions under which already the Ministry of Education within the current law as it stands can reject a licence for an early learning service on the basis that it doesn't think that that early learning service meets the right tests for providing early childhood education? I put to the Minister: what are the additional considerations that he will be able to make in assessing these applications that actually add value as opposed to simply adding delay and adding uncertainty? Because as I've said the end result of delay and uncertainty could be a shortage in early learning places in some parts of the country. I also put to him: what process will there be if people feel that the way that their application has been assessed is unfair? Short of judicial review obviously—but will there be other ways in which people can interact effectively in this two-step process? The second area I wish to ask further questions about relates to the zoning provisions that my colleagues have also been asking many questions about and when it comes to those zoning provisions my question relates to the circumstance which actually occurs pretty frequently which is where the ministry fails to build new classrooms on time. Actually the ministry—I'm sorry; they're wonderful officials. We enjoy it when they come to the Education and Workforce Committee. They're smart people but sometimes they are slow at getting things built. Now in that circumstance isn't it convenient that the ministry can then decide that a zone is so tight that it doesn't require them to build those classrooms anymore? How does the Minister envisage using ministerial power to ensure that the ministry doesn't just use these new wider powers it's been given to make its own job easier at the expense of local communities who wish to be able to send their children to a school that does not have enough capacity because school property hasn't been developed on time? Thank you.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Just briefly on those points I think the main issue around early childhood education licensing which is one that I canvassed with the member's colleague earlier where people will notice the difference is the moves that we will be able to put in place to stop the proliferation of low-quality early childhood education providers. I can think of one big early childhood education provider now that's expanding quite significantly—it's one that has a reasonably strong link with the National Party—which provides a very good quality of early childhood education. Nicola Willis: I'll tell Tony.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Um please don't! And actually you know they're expanding. They will almost certainly meet the licensing criteria. There won't be issues with them because actually they're providing a good quality of early childhood education. We have had examples in recent times though of services who maybe have restrictions on their licences continuing to expand by opening more services and actually that's the sort of thing that I think we should all agree we don't want to see happen. We actually want to sort out the issues that you've got with your existing services first and then if you can get that sorted look to expand. I think that that's the main difference. We can't do that at the moment. We can't take that into account in the licensing regime at the moment. So this will allow that to happen which I think would be welcome. The last point the member raised was—Nicola Willis: Zoning and school property.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: —zoning and school property and I think she raises a very legitimate point. I think that as a country we've been far too slow and this is not just—I'm not going to point the finger at any particular Government for this. Over 30 years we have been far too slow to expand schools to cope with population growth. We actually went through a period in the early 2000s where we saw a downward trend and there were the school reviews because actually rolls were going down. And then of course suddenly they turned back up again and we were far too slow as a country to start expanding the school property. So I think the Ministry of Education is getting better at that and I think that they've sped that up. Modular classrooms are part of the solution. Sometimes it's better to bring in modular classrooms even if it's only as a temporary solution—Tim Macindoe's nodding furiously because I know he was involved in these discussions—until you can build.One of the constraints that we've got of course is that some of our school sites particularly in the areas where the population's growing very quickly are on small sites and therefore the best way to go is up rather than out. Those are the ones that we have the challenge with because you can't always whack a modular classroom on there because there's not enough room and so you've got to go up. Those are the ones where we haven't kept up with population growth because it takes that much longer to plan and to build for that more complex growth. One of the things that the Government has done and we did it in last year's Budget—and I think every Minister of Education who came before me will be envious of this—is we grouped up four years' worth of population growth funding and appropriated it in a single Budget. The reason for doing that is because of the length of time that it takes to plan and execute these programmes. If you're only getting one year's funding at a time you're not planning far enough ahead because you haven't got the money to plan far enough ahead. So by doing four years' worth of planning—and each year you add the next year on to the tail end of that—then actually you can speed the whole pipeline of construction work up. And I think that that builds on some of the work that Tim Macindoe and before him Nikki Kaye were doing in the school property area because I think we would all agree we've got to be faster at coping with population growth.