Fitzsimons Jeanette: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Fitzsimons Jeanette: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:619;Page:15093] 
1. JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: When he said yesterday in relation to reducing roading congestion that “we can’t simply motorway our way out of trouble” what did he mean? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 I meant that we need a balanced approach one in which better roading sits alongside better public transport and demand management. Motorways alone will not work and that is why this Government is spending record sums on public transport and traffic demand management. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: How convincing does he find the Allen report to the Automobile Association given its failure to take into account the economic effects of oil depletion and rising fuel prices and its use of an economic model that assumes that if necessary people can fill up their cars with coal electricity or gas? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Yesterday the Government welcomed that report as a useful contribution to the debate. It does have a number of contestable issues in it and the member has alerted the House to some of them. My reading of the report is that it has in fact done two useful things. One of them is that it has identified precisely the years in which the infrastructure deficit arose as being those years when the National Party was in Government. I might say that in respect of a funding response the report probably underestimated the level of expenditure because it probably underplayed the role of public transport and rail freight. 
Helen Duncan 
: Can the Minister tell the House when he said that “we can’t simply motorway our way out of trouble” how we got into trouble in the first place? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The answer is of course the National Party. Yesterday’s report precisely identifies and quantifies the years during the 1990s when we stopped investing adequately in infrastructure. That is what got us into trouble; this Government is getting us out of trouble. 
Peter Brown 
: Does the Minister accept that our roading infrastructure is seriously lagging behind what is required from the point of view of traffic movement which in turn leads to major economic disadvantage safety problems and further slow-moving vehicles causing environmental problems; and if he does recognise that will he adopt the Allen report solutions so that the huge benefits of an adequate roading infrastructure will flow through our economy to the advantage of us all? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I acknowledge a land transport infrastructure deficit including but not limited to roads. I think that the Allen report as I said in response to a question from Jeanette Fitzsimons has probably underestimated the level of expenditure that is needed. It has certainly underestimated the level of expenditure that this Government intends. I might say that we would be in even worse trouble had the New Zealand First Party when it was briefly in coalition with National not shifted 3.2c from the consolidated account into roading which is something that the National leader subsequently decided he would try to take credit for. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: Does the Minister accept the finding of the Allen Consulting Group report that the construction of rural passing lanes has a cost-benefit ratio of 4:1; if he does will he advocate that they be prioritised for construction? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: As is often the case with reports of that ilk they overlook what is already happening. Transit New Zealand has announced a 10-year plan for State highway development. In the year we currently find ourselves Transit is building passing lanes—and I speak from memory here—at the rate of approximately one every 9 days. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the Minister agree with this statement from the Allen report: “It is difficult to overstate the economic and social importance of New Zealand’s road network. It plays a significantly bigger role than other transport modes and connects them all. It permeates all aspects of economic and social activity.”? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Yes more or less. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: What contribution to New Zealand’s transport future and to congestion relief in Auckland was made by the 1993 National Party decision to sell rail? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister may answer in so far as the question relates to his portfolio. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: It certainly does Mr Speaker. It was a particularly negative contribution a particularly silly privatisation and a particularly thoughtless incomprehensible privatisation that should never have happened. This Government got up and got the track back for a dollar. 
Peter Brown 
: I ask for clarification: is the Minister aware of any other area of investment for Government funding that will produce superior returns to those outlined in the Allen report? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The question ranges way outside the variety of portfolios I happen to hold. I wonder how education would fit alongside transport but I am afraid I am not able to give an opinion. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the Minister agree with the Allen report where it clearly demonstrates that tax spent on road construction is an investment with significant returns for the economy; if he does will he seek to reduce the amount diverted from the National Land Transport Fund to the Crown account as advocated constantly by United Future? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The member may not be aware so I remind him and the House that this year expenditure on land transport has gone up by 18 percent. Not only that but we have said what the expenditure will be out to the years 2013 and 2014 by which time we will be spending approximately $2.8 billion a year on land transport infrastructure—much more than twice the level of expenditure when we came to office. 
Gordon Copeland 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not think that the Minister really addressed the part of the question that related to the diversion of funds from excise duty into the Crown account. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister might like to comment briefly. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: It is a matter of fact that when the Government increased petrol tax in I think April 2002 all that money—every cent—went into roading. When legislation comes before this House again to raise petrol tax by 5c effective from 1 April next year every cent of that will go into roading. I think the real question is whether the National Party will vote for that legislation because those members said yesterday that it was time to stop talking and start doing something but I bet they will vote against that tax. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Does the Minister agree with the approach of Allen Consultants that the large environmental costs of a huge motorway programme should not be counted because one cannot put a dollar value on them and do environmental costs not also cause economic costs down the track? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I cannot remember quite how the issue was phrased but no I do not agree with that part of the report; and yes I do agree with the member. I go on to say that the Allen report’s analysis of carbon dioxide emissions was fairly faulty as well. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Minister whether the motherhood and apple pie 1½ page agreement between United Future and the Government has even one word on road transport funding; if not why is the Government refusing to designate the harbour link to the biggest and most profitable port in this country Tauranga as a State or national road and designate the money collected until this point in time by road users for that purpose? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I am very recently advised that the document does refer to alternative mechanisms of funding for land transport. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister how it was that the harbour link to the biggest and most profitable port in this country which is a vital economic infrastructural investment in this country is not funded— 
Hon Bill English 
: What is the point of order? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: My point of order is that I want an answer and if Mr English would keep quiet I will make my point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will have his point of order heard in silence. There are two people who have offended. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I asked a question with regard to the funding of the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga. It was very clear what I asked which was why the money collected for the purpose of the New Zealand road user was not spent on such roads. I want an answer to that question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member did not ask that question. He asked whether there was any comment in the 1½ page United Future - Labour agreement from the coalition about transport. I heard him quite clearly ask that question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The  
Hansard 
 will show you clearly did not. I asked whether there was any reference to road transport funding from taxation with regard to the United Future document and if not what was he supposed to do in respect of the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga. So it is very clear what the  
Hansard 
 will show and I want an answer to it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members can ask one question. If there are two limbs Ministers are not obliged to respond to both limbs. That is a risk members run in asking multiple questions. The Minister certainly replied to the first half of that question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am very happy to abide by that as being the new ruling— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is not a new rule. It has existed since at least 1966. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am very happy to abide by its new application because I have heard members ask up to three questions. You have usually ruled out the last one but not the first two where they are related. I suggest to you that if this is to be the rule then frankly it will be very very tough on Opposition members in the future. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No it is not because the Minister chose to give an answer. He did address the question. That is the end of the matter. 
Keith Locke 
: Does the Minister agree that the modified Auckland eastern highway plan announced yesterday offers the worst of all worlds in that it has no public transport component and will create big traffic jams when cars coming into the city merge into one lane as they enter Hobson Bay? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I do not make personal comments on individual projects and neither have Ministers of Transport before me; nor will I am sure Ministers of Transport yet to be born. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why when the Government is taking $1 for the consolidated account from every $2 collected for the purpose of road construction maintenance repair and road safety is the Government not moving to ensure that the harbour link to the Port of Tauranga—the biggest port in New Zealand—is a State or national road funded from those same funds? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The fact of the matter is that since the Government came into office an increasing proportion—and it is about to increase further—of all petrol excise duties has been made over to land transport infrastructure; more than ever was the case prior. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member asked the Minister about Tauranga specifically. I think he can answer that part of the question. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I do not intend to comment on individual projects. Ministers of Transport before me have not; neither I suggest will Ministers of Transport yet to be born. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Is not the main failing of the Allen report the lack of any comparison between the economic return from new roads and the long-term economic return from travel demand management public transport and rail development? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I hope that by now I have left the member with the view that I consider the Allen report to be a useful contribution to the land transport debate. I think it is. It is not however a document with a level of sophistication that I think is sufficient for investment decisions to be made and I suspect that the land transport agencies such as Transfund would agree.