7. Freshwater Management—Water Quality of Rivers Lakes and Drinking-water SuppliesJAMES SHAW (Leader—Green) to the Prime MinisterFreshwater Management—Water Quality of Rivers Lakes and Drinking-water Supplies7. JAMES SHAW (Leader—Green) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his policies?Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Finance) on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes—as I said yesterday particularly our policy of not having a collection of expensive new taxes in the coming 3 years such as a water tax a capital gains tax a land tax a wealth and asset tax or a higher income tax. We know that would slow down the New Zealand economy reduce job growth and reduce the incomes of hard-working New Zealanders.James Shaw: Can he confirm that it will cost anywhere between $4 billion and $8 billion to clean up Waikato's waterways to make them safe for swimming and fishing again?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: No I cannot do that for the member today. What the member may be aware of is that all these waterways are quite complex ecosystems. It is hard to put an exact number on the various clean-up programmes but I can tell the member that the Government is very active right throughout the catchments in the Waikato - Bay of Plenty. I think in particular of examples like the Rotorua lakes clean-up but also the work that is being done on the Waikato River in reversing decades of environmental degradation. It is going to take a period of time but there is progress being made.James Shaw: Why has his Government encouraged the conversion of Waikato forests to intensive dairying when in order to make the Waikato River swimmable again much of it will have to be converted back?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I am not sure that the member's characterisation of history is correct in that matter as is often the case. I think perhaps he would be better to put those sorts of questions to the Minister for State Owned Enterprises. But from memory the particular intensification he has been talking about has been going on for a very long time including before this Government came into office.James Shaw: Is he committed to cleaning up Lake Ellesmere/Te Waihora to a swimmable standard again?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The Government is committed to cleaning up all of New Zealand's lakes and waterways and rivers particularly those that are swimmable. We will not be doing it by actually taxing the commercial users of water to make them poorer so that they cannot afford to change their land management systems in order to improve the waterways. That would be done only by a party that did not understand the way the horticultural sector the agricultural sector and the wine-making sector work.James Shaw: Why is he spending $6 million of public money to help clean up Lake Ellesmere while at the same time spending even more public money on a new irrigation project that Environment Canterbury estimates will increase nitrogen loading by 50 percent?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I appreciate that the Greens think all irrigation schemes are bad—in fact they actually think all economic activity in the regions is bad but that is another story. In terms of irrigation schemes many of them—in fact all of them—generally improve the quality of fresh water. In fact that is the way they are designed so that they can pass the rigorous Resource Management Act processes. I appreciate that the member does not want to understand that or particularly does not want to agree with that but that is the reality.James Shaw: Is he comfortable with the evidence presented to the Havelock North water inquiry that shows there are still 759000 New Zealanders getting water out of taps that may not be safe to drink?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I think there is some concern about some municipal water supplies. But I do not think it was actually that helpful for people to pop up in fact before that inquiry was conducted and condemn dirty dairying as the cause of that particular Havelock North issue because they do not like cows—even though apparently there were not that many cows in the vicinity at the time. That was the member and his friends. But actually there are some issues around the need to improve municipal water supplies which is why the Government is focusing on co-investing in infrastructure with councils through the new Crown Infrastructure Partners programme—because it is actually going to be a big challenge for New Zealand in the years ahead to make sure that that infrastructure has the investment that helps that quality to be improved.James Shaw: Why is it the taxpayers rather than the polluters themselves who are paying to clean up the damage that has been done to our rivers our lakes and our drinking water?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: The last time I looked those people in those regions are taxpayers. In fact they are not only taxpayers but they tend to create the jobs that mean that other people can pay taxes GST and so on. The member I know thinks that all of our regions should be frozen in time and that actually all activity should stop because the regions look pretty when the odd Green member of Parliament wanders past and does not do anything. But actually we know that you have to improve environmental outcomes by investing and that investment comes from the economic outcomes in the regions as well. [Interruption]