Chhour Karen; Upston Louise; Sepuloni CarmelKAREN CHHOUR (ACT): Thank you Mr Chair. The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) overspent on personnel costs by $154 million to support improved employment and social outcomes." Why then do we still have 106000 work-ready jobseeker beneficiaries not in work? And did the Minister intend to help these people into work or are we just referring to improved employment opportunities for MSD servants?Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): Thank you Mr Chair. I want to follow on from my colleague Karen Chhour's questions and ask specifically: does the Minister see it is a success if somebody is on a jobseeker benefit then gets into work in the short term—or actually doesn't that count? In terms of sanctions—and for most people listening a simpler way to look at it is the consequence. Given the consequences or the sanctions for work have rapidly declined in the time that Labour has been in office does the Minister believe it is important that if a job is available and where employers are crying out for workers a person on the jobseeker benefit accepts a job? If she doesn't and for example when there are supermarkets around the electorates that we all represent looking for workers what is the consequence of a person who is receiving the jobseeker benefit not accepting a job that is available? I give the example of a job in a supermarket but that's one of many.Then I also want to know given that the Minister wants a series of questions about the wait times for clients who are ringing MSD at the moment—when there has been a doubling of the number of staff answering the phones in MSD why there has been an increase of 425 percent in the wait time for some of New Zealand's most challenged people in hardship? Surely—surely—the basic thing to do is pick up the phone.Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment): There has certainly been an increase in demand on the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) and I think that they've worked incredibly hard to respond to the demand that they've seen. Again harking back to the fact that we have been going through a pandemic and that's put some pressure on a number of Government agencies but I think by and large MSD have done very well in their response.No one likes to see long wait times. I ask for regular updates on those. Often the average wait time doesn't look nearly as bad as what some people experience. It does come down to when people call at times—what time of day what is happening—and so there are a range of factors that need to be taken into consideration but no one likes to see long wait times.The member the Hon Louise Upston asked whether or not I value temporary or short-term work—Hon Louise Upston: No not short-term. Just a job.Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Yes I do and I said that earlier. We have to recognise that some people will go on and off benefit because they take up those horticulture opportunities; they work those seasonal jobs. So our job is to try and make that transition between that type of work and benefit as seamless as possible because sometimes that can cause a lot of stress for families.What I'm also aware of with my Minister for employment hat on is that we do need to work with people to get into the work that they are capable of doing and ensure that we are not encouraging any wage scarring situations where people perhaps are able to earn more but being forced to take up something immediately which then takes them out of the running for looking for the work that actually is well suited to their capabilities as well.With respect to supermarkets and the demand or the workforce issues that they've experienced due to people going down with COVID my understanding is MSD has been working hard with supermarkets across the country to be able to support with the workforce shortages that they've been experiencing. I would not be able to say that in every instance they have been able to provide them with the worker but I know that on a lot of occasions in a lot of instances they have been working very actively with the supermarket sector to be able to fill some of the gaps that have been created due to people being off work because of COVID or needing to self-isolate.I'm trying to think—the member from ACT Karen Chhour raised I think an issue around a $150 million overspend. There wasn't a $150 million overspend; I think the member is referring to $144 underspend. Part of that is due to the fact that when we got the funding for the employment focus and employment initiatives it had been anticipated that we would be experiencing a much greater level of job loss and people coming on benefit than what we ended up actually experiencing. Some of that is money for employment initiatives that is being carried forward to the next financial year including—I think one of the bigger areas is Flexi-wage."