Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Helensville): It's so predictable isn't it Madam Chair? I'm very pleased to be able to take a call in this the committee stage of the Legislation Bill being taken as a whole—with a w".The remarks that we all made yesterday across the House seemed pretty well-aligned in the sense that various contributors to the debate emphasised actually some of the key themes that the Minister has set out now in his opening remarks. Items that we emphasised were around accessibility of the law so there are a number of different aspects to it not only that the law is easy to understand and that it must be easy for citizens to find their way around the law but also that it's easy to physically find it.So a large element of what is being done in this good bit of work is exactly that. It's enabling those who are affected by the laws to be able to find them. We've talked about the visibility of laws and the Minister's touched on that from a perspective of the scrutiny that's appropriate to apply and I have to say I agree strongly with those comments. There's also an element whereby if we are to say in fairness to a citizen that ignorance of the law is no excuse then we must allow her or him to be able to know what the law is otherwise the concept of ignorance is rather meaningless and a person cannot fairly be held to account for failing to comply with that of which they were unaware.The distinction between primary and secondary legislation is a little bit technical but—or at least you know it's actually a major distinction—for the benefit of those who are not so steeped in constitutional matters you might generally refer to Acts of Parliament or statutes as primary legislation and regulations broadly speaking as secondary legislation. I mentioned yesterday that legislation that's secondary in name is not necessarily secondary in importance. Again I acknowledge the Minister's actually made that point in his opening remarks about the importance of laws that do touch the lives of ordinary New Zealanders in the way they conduct their personal affairs business dealings and all different aspects of their lives as well.I think it's worth noting perhaps just almost as a one-off but by way of illustration and a bit of colour if I can manage that one or two examples of the kinds of changes that are made apart from the general effect which is to shed light upon the regulations that govern our country. So one example that sadly enough I found quite interesting is that the bill looks to place beyond doubt that parliamentary counsel appointed with the qualifications required by the bill can use the term "parliamentary counsel" even if they do not meet the requirements of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006 for the use of the term "counsel."It probably goes without saying but seeing as I've got a minute and 56 seconds left remaining in this call—Hon Tim Macindoe: You don't have to use it.CHRIS PENK: —I'm going to say it anyway. I don't have to use it—how very generous of you. My colleague the Hon Tim Macindoe I think probably needs another minute and 56 seconds to prepare his own remarks so I thought I was doing him a favour but anyway.So the general rule of course as set out in the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act is that one cannot pass oneself off to be a lawyer if one isn't currently holding a practising certificate. I for example don't hold a practising certificate so I don't go around claiming to be a lawyer. The term "counsel" as it's spelt as distinct from a council—noting the irritating American tradition of referring to the lawyers as counsellors which sounds even more like councillors. The general rule of course is that one can't pretend to be a lawyer if one is not and that's for the protection of those who would seek these services. Notwithstanding that it might be that someone is working doing excellent work as a drafter in the PCO—the Parliamentary Counsel Office—they might not have a practising certificate such that they meet the requirements of that Act that I've mentioned. Nevertheless they have every right to be referred to in that way that refers to their role that they do and in acknowledging such a large piece of legislation that has been based upon the very good work of a lot of people it's entirely appropriate to acknowledge the hard work of the PCO.On that note I think my elder and better—my better in any case; no elder too—Tim Macindoe will also have some comments but I'll leave it there for now and he will say no doubt on behalf of us that we support the continued passage of this good work at this committee stage and beyond."