Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Ryall Tony: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:423;Page:18526] 
2.  
GERRY BROWNLEE 
 (Deputy Leader—National) on behalf of  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay Of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Police 
: What did he mean when he said on television last night that “I take the rap when things start to break down”? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police) 
: 
 I am the Minister of Police and I am responsible for questions about the performance of police to this Parliament—as we have seen in the past week. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister consider that if something looks broken feels broken and acts as if it is broken like the police 111 system then it is a breakdown; and is it not time that he as he said he would takes the rap? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have been very tough on Opposition members if they interject during a question. Why is there a different standard for the Deputy Prime Minister who interjected on the closing part of Gerry Brownlee’s question? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Because that is precisely the point. The member did not listen. The Minister did not interject during the asking of the question. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: He did! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Oh no he did not; I listened very carefully. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Does that then not raise the prospect that if a question is asked that is clearly uncomfortable for a Minister struggling with his portfolio all that the struggling Minister has to do is take his time getting out of his chair so that the Deputy Prime Minister may offer the House one of his caustic barbs in order to make that struggling Minister feel a little bit better when he gets to his feet? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I take the member’s point. I think he has made a valid point of order. I will now be listening very very closely indeed to any such similar comments. I ask the Deputy Prime Minister to withdraw that comment. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I withdraw. 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: The reason we are having an inquiry is so that we can make sure that the system is improved and works well for all New Zealanders. 
Martin Gallagher 
: Further to the Minister’s answer what information does the Minister have about 111 calls to the police? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I say to Mr English that is precisely what the point of order taken by Mr Brownlee was about. An interjection should not be made. I am now enforcing that. The member is warned once only and that is the end of the matter. As far as I am concerned we have had the question asked and the answer must start. The member knows he cannot have an interjection because of what happened when Dr Cullen did that—Mr Brownlee rightly pulled him up and I ruled it out. 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I am advised by the police that communication centres receive 495000 111 calls every year. This equates to 1350 a day or 56 every hour. The 111 system relies on human operators to deal with often distressed victims. The vast majority of 111 calls are dealt with effectively and appropriately. Any problems with the system are being considered by an independent review panel. 
Ron Mark 
: Does the Minister fully understand the meaning of the term: “I take the rap when things start to break down.” and does he understand that if things do not get a whole lot better real soon for the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police one or both will be in real danger of losing the last shreds of confidence that the public has in their ability to administer their responsibilities—along with their jobs their salaries and their flash cars? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There were four questions there. Two can be answered. 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: Yes and no. 
Deborah Coddington 
: Will the Minister take the rap when one of the 75 suspected paedophiles on the list given to the New Zealand Police last September is caught abusing a child because the Minister’s police officers were ordered by national headquarters not to proceed with a national bust despite a team being in place and so no arrests have been made; if not why not? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I have full confidence that the Department of Internal Affairs and the police are working to successfully solve that matter. I must say that the New Zealand Police received the information from the American customs department several months after the Australians did. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister believe that in the recent case of the young woman in Hamilton she should have taken the advice of the Commissioner of Police and screamed down the phone in order to receive the appropriate attention; if not what is he doing to ensure that screaming down the phone is not the only option available to New Zealand women who need police assistance when they are under attack? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: No and the inquiry is dealing with those matters. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: If the Minister cannot show leadership and sort out the problems within the 111 service so as to avoid further occurrences of women having to walk to get their own help or being sent a taxi instead of a police car will he take the rap and resign so that someone else can fix it? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: No. That is why we are having the review—so that those matters can be sorted out. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I wonder whether the Minister would be kind enough to clarify his last answer when he said “No.” When he said: “I take the rap when things … break down.” was that just a hypothetical statement made by him or does he accept that public confidence in the 111 service is breaking down and that if that is the case the constitutional position in terms of taking the rap is to resign—which one is it? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I said that no I will not resign. I have to say to the member that we are working very hard to make sure that the 111 system is working properly so that the public can have full confidence. 
Ron Mark 
: How many more debacles with the 111 system will we have to reveal before this Minister finally does the honourable thing and steps aside allowing someone more competent more capable and with stronger leadership to take over the job of providing safety and security to the men and women of this country? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I repeat for the member because I think it is very important that the centres receive 495000 111 calls per year—that is almost half a million. I have to say that we are having a review so that we can improve the service to the public. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: When the Minister said on television last night: “I take the rap when things start to break down.” did he know that he had no intention of taking the rap regardless it would seem of what the review might say or are there some circumstances in which he might resign honourably? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I have to tell that member that the 111 system generally works very well although there are occasions—and it seems that most of them have a human factor—when things are not right. We are having the review to see how we can improve the service. I would retire or resign only if we had results like the National Government had during the 1990s with record numbers of crime. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Notwithstanding the answer that the Minister has just given and the likelihood of your saying that he has addressed the question I assert that he was in fact asked whether he knew when he said he would take the rap that there were no circumstances in which he would. He has not answered that question. While we are not allowed to say it in the House that does indicate that he was at least misrepresenting a position to the public. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. The last sentence of the Minister’s answer addressed the question.