Menéndez March Ricardo; Little AndrewRICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Green) (remote): Thank you. I'm acknowledging that because this is in urgency we haven't had the time to go through a proper select committee process to maybe unpack some of those broader implications of the bill or the process that the bill has gone through so I'm keen to understand why are we having this in urgency. We've had five years to basically address this and put forward some updated figures. I hear the Minister of Health mention that he's not supportive of the tabled amendment by Jan Logie but I mean the tabled amendment does reflect the aspirations of the New Zealand Nurses Organisation and the Public Service Association too. I guess I'm keen to understand in the process leading up to this bill being introduced under urgency what consultation you had with those unions in terms of ensuring that what is being put forward represents the needs of those workers and the aspirations of the union movement as well. I mean the way I see it is cooperation agreement partners don't let their friends be out of line with what the working class is asking for. So I'm keen to understand in terms of the rationale for leaving this until last minute and then having an urgency process and if you wouldn't mind explaining why the rates that the union movement is calling for is not what you are supporting.Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health): Again I'm pretty sure I've answered most of the member's questions already. But in terms of the rates and my engagement with the unions it is true they wanted higher rates—in some cases it's significantly higher rates—and it was pretty clear that the rates they were seeking were the sort of rates that you would expect would be the product of a pay equity claim. The legislation prevents Government agencies—in fact anybody—from engaging over a pay equity claim until after 30 June so we could not engage on that basis.The member asked why it's taken five years. This group of workers has had legislative pay rates including legislated pay rises over a five-year period. It's unlikely that any of the unions representing any of these workers could have grown their membership amongst this group of workers sufficiently quickly to negotiate a collective agreement that would have provided or afforded comparable protection. And I think everybody saw it as appropriate that while the legislation was in place and these rates were in place that afforded a degree of protection. I know the unions have been working closely with this Government on fair pay agreements and I think this group of workers would be a great candidate for a fair-pay agreement once that legislation is passed. Given the concern being expressed by so many in the House tonight about low-paid workers particularly these workers I look forward to all members' support for the fair-pay agreement legislation when it comes back to the House.But it hasn't been possible to engage over a pay equity claim and it hasn't been possible to do other collective bargaining for this group of workers without leaving a substantial chunk of the 61500 workers out. We're trying to prevent that from happening. There's no question in my mind there would be some workers or at least be some new entrants to this workforce that were this legislation not to be in place would almost certainly be offered inferior rates of pay and that would be unacceptable. So it's taking all those factors and saying What do we do? What is the best interim step?" Once we get to the point of kind of pay equity freedom for these group of workers we should throw off the shackles of the prohibition on pursuing a pay equity claim. At the end of the day on 30 June and 1 July we're in a position to pursue a pay equity claim. What do we do in the meantime to afford appropriate protection for these workers? And this is the step that we're taking.We engaged over an appropriate adjustment or pay rate; we didn't reach agreement. And likewise with the providers they certainly made their views clear: they would have liked more. But we haven't done that and we've done what we think is an appropriate interim adjustment pending the most important thing which is getting a pay equity claim settled."