2. Question No. 2—Prime MinisterHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime MinisterQuestion No. 2—Prime Minister2. Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: What advice if any has she received on the most likely way COVID-19 entered Auckland causing the lockdown which began on 12 August and what weaknesses if any have officials identified in border procedures which may have left New Zealand vulnerable to fresh outbreaks of COVID-19?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): I have been advised that as with all countries which have faced resurgence we should not rule anything in or out without evidence. That's why we have undertaken border testing that has covered our front-line agency workers testing across our managed isolation facilities contact tracing and environmental testing—and even secondary environmental testing at the worksite that remains our earliest sign of this outbreak. To date we have not established the source of the current cluster but investigations continue. In terms of border testing on 22 June Cabinet agreed to fund the Ministry of Health testing strategy which included testing workers at the border. Previously there was an issue with the coding of tests which meant we weren't obtaining the data for reporting when border workers were tested at their GP or a community-based assessment centre (CBAC) so we moved to on-site testing. I am advised though that Customs staff for instance who were symptomatic were tested at GPs or CBACs. I'm advised that led to approximately 660 tests from the March period onwards.On 10 July the first mobile testing at Auckland international airport started and on 16 July the second round of on-site testing took place at Auckland international airport. Cabinet also set an expectation on 22 July that all managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) staff would be tested and we were also working to lift the broader uptake of testing across the board at high-risk sites. On 14 August we made testing mandatory for those at Ports of Auckland and Port of Tauranga but I should add there were already health orders in place covering expectations of the way that port workers would operate to ensure their safety. Testing is only one element of the additional precautions we have put in place. Of course our first lines of defence are daily health checks because not even weekly testing necessarily picks up cases as they arise; personal protective equipment (PPE) use; and strict operational guidelines that limit contact for instance between managed isolation staff and people in facilities and also those who are working at our borders.Hon Judith Collins: Does she stand by her statement of 15 July that We've … ensured our front-line workers at the border are safe by wearing appropriate PPE getting regularly tested and that our systems for managing returnees are robust and limit the risk of spread. As I say the system has done the job it was set up to do to date."; if not why not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member will know that Cabinet agreed to fund a testing strategy that was released some time after its agreement which was at the end of June so I was referring to that testing strategy. We also of course had because of the issues that I outlined in my primary answer—although we were being advised that border staff who may have for instance been symptomatic were being tested at CBACs and GPs and we know for instance for Customs there were hundreds of staff tested in that way because we had no ability to match a staff member's National Health Index number and where they were working we started on-site testing. As I said to the member that started on 10 July. There was more on-site testing as well at the airport on 16 July and we of course had testing happening in our managed isolation facilities—not as comprehensively as we expected or as was set out by Cabinet. Hon Judith Collins: When she said on 29 June about the border "We are now amongst the only ones in the world testing every single person who comes into those facilities" what was her understanding of exactly who was being tested? Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course the member hasn't provided me with the full quote but by the sounds of what I was referring to we were having a debate at that time as to our quarantine and isolation processes for New Zealanders who were returning home. The point I was making at that time was we were mandating testing and moving to mandatory testing for day three and day 12. Not every country requires individuals as New Zealand does to go into a Government-approved facility. Many countries still require at-home isolation and some countries that do require quarantine in a facility don't mandate testing. We do both.Hon Chris Hipkins: Has any clear link between the current cluster outbreak in Auckland and any incursion at the border been established?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: No not at this stage as I set out in my primary answer. Of course we have moved through and prioritised testing those at the highest-risk posts at the border and in those positions we have almost complete coverage now. Not all necessarily results will have been returned but we have almost complete coverage. MIQ—we're at well over 90 percent of those staff as well. As yet we have not established a link between the current cluster in Auckland and border staff.David Seymour: Why then did her Minister of Foreign Affairs go on TV and say there was a connection between the cluster and the border?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: That question would be better directed to the Deputy Prime Minister.Hon Judith Collins: What was her reaction to the news last week that just one week before the current community outbreak 63.5 percent of all border and hotel isolation workers in Auckland had never been tested for COVID-19 when she herself had said eight weeks earlier that front-line workers at the border were getting regularly tested?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: From the reporting we received from 7 to 13 August we had roughly 571 border staff that were tested over that period. As we've already set out our estimate of those who would be considered front-line would be about 280. When it comes to those working in managed isolation facilities on 22 July after Cabinet started receiving breakdowns of the number of staff being tested—Hon Paul Goldsmith: Just answer the question.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Mr Goldsmith I am. After we received a breakdown of those individuals being tested it was clear to us that we weren't getting full coverage which is why on 22 July we set down a Cabinet minute—our expectation that it be mandated that every staff member working in those facilities be tested—because we were concerned about the coverage of those staff. Again I reiterate we have not as yet established a link between those staff and this cluster. [Interruption]SPEAKER: OK there have now I think been seven interjections that have reflected on me from two members. The next time the member who makes it will leave.Hon Judith Collins: Why have not all border-facing staff been tested eight weeks after her Government said they would be tested?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I tried to address in my original answer originally we were using GPs and CBACs in a voucher system. That did not enable us to track whether or not all the staff we expected to be tested were tested. That is why we then moved to on-site testing. That began on 10 July and also on 16 July. It was clear then once we were able to get numbers coming through from that—although it was never comprehensive because it didn't pick up anyone tested outside; keep in mind if you're symptomatic you would not be at work to therefore be tested—we identified that that coverage was not what we had expected. We were engaging with agencies around lifting those rates including with MIQs. It's why we started mandating the rotation but also questioning with the Ministry of Health why those numbers weren't representative of the entirety of border staff. As I say we did start to see numbers lift. From 31 July to 6 August 211 border staff were tested and from 7 August to 13 August they reported 571 were tested.Hon Judith Collins: If as the Prime Minister says there were such issues around coding and other matters then why didn't she tell New Zealanders of this problem when she knew about it?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We did identify that issue which is why we moved to on-site testing on 10 July because we identified that. We also of course as I've said had every expectation—and that is all that I've ever articulated—that border staff were being tested because that is what we were advised.Hon Judith Collins: How many people—front-line border workers—have refused to be tested?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I was advised by the Ministry of Health that there was an issue—I wouldn't use the word "refused"—that some staff were declining testing. That was an issue that was raised some weeks ago. It was significant enough that I did choose for instance—and I believe other Ministers may have—to raise with those representatives in the workforce that if that were an issue could we help support them to address it. Again I can only report what was raised with me by the Ministry of Health.Hon Judith Collins: Does she agree with her Minister of Health the Hon Chris Hipkins who has indicated to media in the weekend that it's a pretty tough lever to pull or a hard lever to pull against staff working at the border to have them tested and how does that coincide with the tough lever of having to lock down a third of New Zealand?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I think the member unfortunately is really misrepresenting the Minister of Health's statement there. The issue here of course is that from a public health perspective the practice generally—and I'm sure Dr Reti would reinforce this—happens to be that you have to exercise some caution where you're compelling people where there is no public health reason—therefore if someone is asymptomatic to be put through a test because then you're going beyond clinical judgment and we are compelling blanket orders. We have moved with orders to mandate that now. Of course you can see that we were also putting in place every effort to ensure that testing was available and that staff were being tested. I've given the numbers at the border. That does demonstrate we were seeing those increasing numbers but we wanted to make sure everyone who was at risk was and that is why it has now been mandated through an order to ensure it's the case.Hon Chris Hipkins: Can the Prime Minister confirm that mandatory testing has been put in place using the powers under the COVID-19 response Act that was described as a massive infringement on human rights and was vigorously opposed by the National Party?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I can confirm that we have used those powers. We do believe that that is necessary because we do want to make sure that we have that very comprehensive coverage. What I would also say is that we've got to do everything we can to overcome anyone's reluctance in the community generally around testing and the message that I'll send very very clearly is: getting a test does not jeopardise your job—being found positive does not jeopardise your job. It should not also jeopardise your safety and I am concerned that that has been an issue raised more generally in the public and that that may cause some reluctance for testing.Hon Judith Collins: So who ultimately is responsible for this system: is it her Minister herself or is it actually the Ministry of Health?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As the Government of course we take responsibility for our resurgence plan for the fact that New Zealand continues to be one of the more successful countries in the world with our COVID response. This is a tricky virus. There has been no country in the world that has had COVID within it as we have has got to the status we've had and has continued to maintain the levels of freedom we have. When we prepared for a resurgence plan the Opposition claimed we were scaremongering. Now they seem to be claiming that somehow our resurgence plan wasn't sufficient. We have always prepared for this scenario because no one has managed to get themselves to a situation where they haven't experienced a second wave—no one.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker you've warned the member from the Opposition before but in his last comment he made a statement which is clearly a challenge to you. He knows it and I'm happy to repeat it if you want to know what it was but he said "Do you take responsibility"—that's you Mr Speaker—"for this stuff-up?" Now sir that is a direct infringement against the warning you gave him and he should be asked to leave.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I would note that in an answer to a question just prior to that you were brought into the answer. You might've taken some comfort from the fact that your job is not at stake as a result of COVID-19—a similar thing.SPEAKER: Well on the latter point I had warned the Prime Minister earlier about my COVID testing and the negative result that I'd got so that could even have applied to me directly and the Prime Minister did say "Mr Speaker" in that case. I want to thank the Deputy Prime Minister for his support for me but I think in these interventions I'll do it off my own cognisance rather than with his telling tales.Hon Judith Collins: Was she or any of her Ministers made aware before the Auckland outbreak last week that people working in the managed isolation and quarantine facilities who should've been tested had not been tested?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As you can see from the numbers that I've read out in this House there was the suggestion through that reporting that the coverage wasn't as comprehensive as we expected. That is why I've been very open about that. This is why on 22 July Cabinet minuted a decision of our expectation that every worker in a managed isolation or quarantine facility be tested. It is worth also pointing out that prior to 13 August 811 staff members were on-site. That doesn't include those who may—keeping in mind if you're symptomatic you should not be at work—have been tested elsewhere. Finally it is not sufficient to simply claim that testing is the only response required; if it was it would be patently insufficient. Even weekly testing would not for instance pick up someone who may be tested on a Tuesday come in contact with COVID on a Wednesday be infectious by a Saturday and take it back to work again on a Monday. You have to include health checks PPE and infection control and that is what we had across our high-risk areas alongside the expectation of testing.Hon Judith Collins: If that is so then why is testing now compulsory?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Because as I just said it has to be part of a plan around infection control PPE use and daily health checks which we have had. I again would point out to the member that this is a virus not simply a human we are dealing with. It is not a straightforward management and control issue and every country in the world has had an experience like New Zealand. We happen currently to be in a much better position than most.Hon Grant Robertson: How helpful is it to security at the border for people to take positions such as accusing the Government of scaremongering when we ask people to be tested calling for a shorter level 4 calling for a shorter level 3 inventing complaints about homeless people getting into facilities and calling for open borders with countries such as China?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I have to concede that in my view at these times I absolutely expect as a Government we should be held to account—that is why we are here. But I also have to say that the kinds of contributions by Dr Reti are the kinds of contributions that I think add something when New Zealand is in the situation we are in. What I don't think adds to the situation is if we have anyone that unnecessarily calls into question the role for instance of testing and the importance of restrictions and limiting spread. There are other areas where I think it would be useful if we took the politics out of the response."