8. Job Creation and Employment—Fruit Picking Migrant Workers Refugees and Support for the UnemployedLAWRENCE YULE (National—Tukituki) to the Minister of EmploymentJob Creation and Employment—Fruit Picking Migrant Workers Refugees and Support for the Unemployed8. LAWRENCE YULE (National—Tukituki) to the Minister of Employment: Does he stand by his statement in the House on Tuesday that we won't be punishing everybody who mucks up"?Hon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment): I come from a background where giving people a second third and fourth chance is the norm. Forgiveness means everything in our communities and not giving up on people has been part of our lifelong philosophy. Of course I stand by my statement.Lawrence Yule: Is an unemployed New Zealander "mucking up" if they refuse to pick fruit while receiving the job seeker's benefit?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: There are a lot of circumstances around different individuals. It's not just black and white. It's easy to make that assessment to start off with but we have to look at what's happening in the family and I'm disappointed that that man from Ngati Kahungunu is talking in this manner.Lawrence Yule: Should unemployed New Zealanders turn down fruit picking because they don't believe it is dignified work?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Again a lot of circumstances come in to play. This Government is committed to people having dignified work. Doing what the member said in terms of getting out there—Hon Mark Mitchell: Picking fruit—say it.Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Well no absolutely—picking fruit is dignified work. There's no shame in picking fruit. However a lot of circumstances come in to play and that member should know that. It's not easy sometimes to move 50 kilometres. It's not easy sometimes to walk away from your family. It's not easy for people to give up everything just to pick fruit.Tamati Coffey: Has the Minister made any other statements recently about supporting people that make mistakes?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I've made multiple statements as the Minister of Employment around—Hon Member: Multiple mistakes?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I've made multiple statements I should say as the Minister of Employment—Hon Member: You were right the first time.Hon WILLIE JACKSON: —I did say that yeah—around encouraging our communities and our employers to not give up on people who need greater support to keep them connected to the workforce. I've encouraged them to provide pastoral care—something the National Party has no idea of—so that they will look at all avenues that are barriers to employment and help our communities work through that whether that's through their travel accommodation childcare or community commitments or health. The Government's intention is to lift people up not keep them down. Punitive measures are not the answer here.Lawrence Yule: Is it the Government's policy to use refugees to fill labour shortages as proposed by Iain Lees-Galloway in a recent visit to Hawke's Bay?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: We know we have a crisis at the moment. We'll work through short-term solutions to achieve our goal. We know there's a gap there—there's a hole. We'll do what the National Party was doing for nine years and fill the gap for a short while but we're committed to local labour and we're committed to a comprehensive strategy in terms of employment down there in the Bay of Plenty and we're committed to employing New Zealanders first.Lawrence Yule: If it is good enough for refugees to pick fruit why is it not good enough for unemployed New Zealanders to pick fruit?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Can I just say I'm stunned that the former Mayor of Hastings and a Kahungunu man is asking such stupid questions. The reality is because as he well knows people have big families people have commitments people can't just move at the drop of a hat like that person who has an uncaring and insensitive attitude to his local people. He should be ashamed of himself and I hope Ngāti Kahungunu totally dismisses him. Some Ngati Porou are in the House and I'm sure they're shocked at his questions too.SPEAKER: Order! I'm going to remind the Minister—and it's a ruling that hasn't been pulled out for a while—that it is not appropriate to refer to people in the gallery. I think we allow it more than we used to but calling individuals or groups of individuals into matters which are not directly related is certainly outside previous Speakers' rulings thank you.Lawrence Yule: When he said on Tuesday "We won't go down the easy route and just hire foreigners all the time" why did he think it is easier to hire foreigners than encourage unemployed New Zealanders into gainful employment?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: We have a shortfall at the moment and we'll do what we do. We'll do what we have to do right now but we have a strategy that we're going to roll out. We're working with the growers we're working with the employers and we're working with the unions. The reality is we have a bit of a crisis going on. You have to do what you have to do to get through the problems as that member should know.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Supplementary question?Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. SPEAKER: A point of order—Hon Gerry Brownlee: I'll wait until the end of the question because it may get worse yet.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister—SPEAKER: No no. Order! Can the member resume his seat. I'm going to ask Mr Brownlee to stand withdraw and apologise for his misuse of the point of order system.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I withdraw and apologise.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can the Minister give an assurance to whoever might pick the fruit local or from outside of the Hawke's Bay that when they get down to Hastings as part of their employment contract they will not be poisoned by the water?SPEAKER: Order! The member does not have responsibility. [Interruption] I think the member has—[Interruption] Order! I'm ruling that like Ms Salesa's approach earlier it's in the category of a nice try and might even have made his point but it's not an area of responsibility for employment contracts.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I'd disagree with you that it was a nice try. There was nothing nice about that at all and the whole tenor of the answer from the Minister who was being questioned quite legitimately—if you look at the questions that were asked there were no political barbs in them no innuendo in them just straight questions about matters that relate to his portfolio and what he has been saying publicly. Yet throughout he resorted to very personal attacks on my colleague. Now while that doesn't particularly bother us it does I think reflect poorly on the Parliament and I think Ministers who resort to that need to have it called to their attention that that style of answer does very little for either their own prestige the prestige of the Government or in fact the elucidation of Parliament itself.SPEAKER: I think I'm just going to reiterate a comment that I made earlier that both in questions and in answers I can't be—unless something is outrageous—an arbiter of taste. I think the member is correct in his characterisation of the replies but we are talking about an area where there is I think it's fair to say a fierce contest of philosophies and that was playing out both in the questions and in the answers. But I think members have all heard what Mr Brownlee said and wise Ministers would take it on board."