Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeNorman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 28 May 2014. Volume:699;Page:18388. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]3.Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) to theMinister for Climate Change Issues: Is he aware of any ongoing fiscal risks to the Crown resulting from the operation of the emissions trading scheme?Hon TIM GROSER (Minister for Climate Change Issues): The term “fiscal risk” has a very specific meaning in terms of the Public Finance Act and all the fiscal risks from whatever sources are listed in the Budget documents but I checked with Treasury an hour ago and it assured me that there is no risk associated specifically with climate change.Dr Russel Norman: Has he seen any reports that firms to which the Government has allocated free New Zealand carbon units are engaging in arbitrage using cheap international carbon units to meet their New Zealand obligations under the emissions trading scheme?Hon TIM GROSER: I am aware of many reports on this issue including reports relating to a rort that this Government has put a stop to which involved the use of taxpayer funds to put money in people’s pockets from the reregistration arbitrage opportunities. I do not know whether he is referring to that or some other aspect of the emissions trading scheme.Dr Russel Norman: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was about firms that have been allocated free New Zealand carbon units which did not apply to—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The question asked whether the Minister had received any reports and he responded that he had received many reports.Dr Russel Norman: Is there anything to stop firms that receive New Zealand carbon units each year as free allocations from selling these units and then using cheaper international units to meet their greenhouse obligations in New Zealand?Hon TIM GROSER: The scheme has been designed so that people can minimise their costs in meeting those obligations within the framework of the Climate Change Response Act. Even—and should I add this—foresters who remain in the scheme can still use cheaper international units although we have stopped the inclusion of units of questionable environmental integrity.Dr Russel Norman: Then is it correct that in respect of the 33 million carbon units that were gifted to firms in New Zealand last year at the taxpayer’s expense—these firms can sell these units at about $4 each currently then buy cheap offshore units for about 20c each and then use the offshore units to cover their emissions in New Zealand?Hon TIM GROSER: The existing structure of the scheme remains as I described. If people wish to maximise their fiscal position in the way set out by the Act they will do so and this Government is quite happy with the situation as it stands.Dr Russel Norman: Then does the Minister agree that firms that receive free allocations of New Zealand carbon units and then sell those units for a profit while meeting their emissions trading scheme obligations using cheap offshore units are effectively being paid by the taxpayer to produce greenhouse pollution?Hon TIM GROSER: No. We have set up a scheme that allows people to meet their obligations in ways that the scheme is designed to ensure do not put them out of business. But I am quite confident that in the event that the member has decisive influence on climate change policy we will have to revise that opinion.Dr Russel Norman: Does he believe that the purpose of the emissions trading scheme is actually being served when it results in polluters being subsidised by taxpayers to actually produce pollution as is now the case using these loopholes in the law?Hon TIM GROSER: No that is a complete mischaracterisation of the scheme. What we are trying to do is ensure that people move slowly in this direction of lower carbon emissions—it is of course complicated by the very low international price at the moment—and give them ways of adjusting to that. If we or the previous Government had put the full burden of the adjustment process on without giving them some offsetting units we believe as no doubt the previous Government also believed that it would have driven the process too far too fast in the wrong direction. But we know that the Green Party has no concern whatsoever for the productive side of our economy.Dr Russel Norman: Will the Minister tell us the names of the firms to which he gave free allocation of New Zealand carbon units in the last year and how much each company received or is this information kept secret from New Zealanders even though they are paying for the units?Hon TIM GROSER: I personally do not sit behind a desk doling out money and units to individual firms. It is done by a responsible Public Service.Dr Russel Norman: Does the Minister not think that it is only fair that New Zealand taxpayers who are paying for these free allocations—which the Minister is responsible for giving away as free allocations—are entitled to know whom the allocations are going to?Hon TIM GROSER: I think the details of this are done deliberately by the officials responsible for the registrar. I do not think you want companies’ confidential information sprayed around the New Zealand public without regard to their own financial positions.Dr Russel Norman: Is this not yet another example of his Government’s dodgy backroom deals at the expense of ordinary New Zealanders who are never told the names of the companies who receive hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer carbon credits? Is this just another—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The question has been asked; I will allow the Minister to answer it.Hon TIM GROSER: The short answer is no but there is a deeper issue of principle. Is the member suggesting as is clearly implied by the question that from the point ofview of any Government he is going to belong to in the future he is going to put around highly confidential company information on their tax burdens and other such matters without any regard for the impact on their financial position? The member should reflect on that.Rt Hon John Key: Has the Minister seen any reports of how the climate changed when the leader of the Green Party went up to the Dotcom mansion and was—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I do not see any ministerial responsibility for that.