Hutchison Paul: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Hutchison Paul: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:624;Page:19226] 
5.  
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Port Waikato) 
 to the  
Minister of Health 
: Why did she not inform the New Zealand public immediately when she learnt there was a problem with the flu vaccine on 28 February? 
Hon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health) 
: 
 It is plain common sense that no Minister or agency would make a public announcement until all the information was available and comments had been received from the vaccine manufacturer. On 28 February I did not have this information. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Did the Minister not think to ask searching questions surrounding the delay with the flu vaccine because she simply did not realise this was an extremely important public health issue affecting over 700000 people or because she is so used to ducking her responsibilities that she relied on the fact that she could always blame health problems on someone else? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: No it was because I was informed I would receive information in a few days which I did and because the roll-out of the vaccine programme is not due to start until 21 March and we still have not reached that date. 
Steve Chadwick 
: What progress has been made in seeking suppliers of full-strength vaccine? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I am pleased to inform the House that I have just been advised that Commonwealth Serum Laboratories will supply New Zealand with an additional 100000 doses—50000 within a month and 50000 a month later. That gives us a total of 150000 doses and work continues to secure more. 
Rod Donald 
: Can the Minister confirm that the flu vaccine contains thiomersal a known allergen that contains mercury; if so does that not mean that New Zealanders who get a double-dose of the vaccine will get double-doses of mercury? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: No this vaccine does not contain thiomersal. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I draw to your attention that the ACT party should be called in preference to the Green Party. My colleague Heather Roy has been calling consistently from the start of this question; it is just a question of order according to proportionality in this House. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I accept that. My apologies. 
Heather Roy 
: How many patients will die of the flu this winter because of this dodgy vaccine? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: No patients would die because of this dodgy vaccine. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Will the Minister be instituting an inquiry into Pharmac’s handling of this issue given that this is the first time that Pharmac has been involved and we have a problem or does she consider that Pharmac has covered itself in glory in its handling of the matter? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: No I will not be initiating an inquiry into Pharmac’s handling. It followed the procedure that has been followed for the last 7 years—that is to go to a request for proposal process and then to have a sole supplier. What it has said—and so has the Ministry of Health—is that it will examine whether it would stay with a sole supplier in future or look for multiple suppliers. 
Steve Chadwick 
: What comments has she seen on the work being done by expert advisers on New Zealand’s approach toward a flu vaccination programme this year? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: This morning the National spokesperson on health who might be an expert in gynaecology but certainly is not on expert in communicable diseases was raising alarm on the radio about the possible side effects—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It is impossible to hear the Minister’s answer. Would members please allow the Minister to give her answer. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Order will not be maintained while Ministers repeatedly take gratuitous shots at members of the Opposition. If that is the sort of Parliament you want to run that is the sort of consequence there will be. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Madam Speaker I refer you back again to some of the original questioning which accused the Minister of dereliction of duty. All the Minister said was that the member was a gynaecologist and not an expert in communicable diseases. That is scarcely gratuitous; it is actually a basic fact. I am sure the member takes no offence from that. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The point of order is not a valid point of order. Would the Minister please give her answer. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: Dr Hutchison was on the radio this morning raising alarm about the side effects of double-dosing. I believe that he used his title as a doctor to raise unnecessary and alarmist fears without waiting to hear from the experts; I wait to hear from the experts. I think that shows he is playing pure politics. He is also revealing the nature of his ignorance because in fact New Zealand has provided two doses in certain circumstances to children in the past and this is consistent with international practice. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Why does she think an independent expert committee can decide whether two doses of the Sanofi Pasteur flu vaccine will be safe and effective within a week or two when usually it takes months to carry out scientific evidence-based trials or is she just hoping her committee will get her off the hook? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I would suggest that Dr Hutchison goes and says that to the experts on the committee—paediatricians infectious disease specialists virologists and so on—who are experienced in making such decisions and in fact are able to read international evidence even if the member is not. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I asked the Minister a very specific question: why does she think an independent expert committee can decide whether two doses of the Sanofi Pasteur flu vaccine will be safe and effective within a week or two? She failed to address that. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Ruling on the point of order I listened carefully and she addressed the question. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. She addressed the question by telling Dr Hutchison to go and ask that question of the committee. I am sure he is capable of doing that but surely you would expect the Minister to answer a question asked of her in the House. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I listened carefully to the answer. The Minister said that the committee was composed of experts who are capable of reading the international evidence on these matters. 
Rodney Hide 
: Does the Minister stand by her statement just given to Heather Roy that no one will die of the flu because the vaccine fails to vaccinate properly; if she does will she resign as Minister if someone does sadly die because of the improper vaccine or is her job as Minister more important than this person’s life? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: The member might like to rewrite the question for the member who asked me the question. She said it was a dodgy vaccine. I said that it is not a dodgy vaccine; it is a vaccine that has full potency for two strains of influenza and not enough for a third strain. I was commenting on the fact that she said it was a dodgy vaccine. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The Minister is attempting to rewrite her answer I think. What she said in her first answer was that no one would die because of this vaccine which as the Minister said vaccinates against only two strains of flu not three. She said in this House that no one would die as a consequence. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: Of a dodgy vaccine. 
Rodney Hide 
: She has said it again. I asked her whether she stands by it. The answer is yes or no and she is refusing to answer. I think what we are hearing from the Minister is that she is quite happy to pretend that no one is at risk because this flu vaccine does only two out of three strains but she is not prepared to stand up in this House and say that no one will die as a consequence. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I think this is the problem that happens when people do not listen to answers carefully then change subtly the wording of a subsequent question and then complain they have not been given the same answer as previously. Heather Roy asked the Minister whether she can assure the House that no one would die as a result of this dodgy vaccine. The Minister said that yes she can give that assurance. The member asked as a different question if he cares to think about it whether she can assure the House that no one would die as a result of the flu. That is a different question if he cares to think about it. 
Rodney Hide 
: I thank Dr Michael Cullen for pointing out that it was a different question. Now may the Minister of Health answer it. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I listened carefully to the points of order and also to the questions and the answer. The Minister addressed the question. There is no valid point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. This is a very important matter. We have just heard the Minister of Health not ruling out people dying of the flu— 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I wasn’t asked that. 
Rodney Hide 
: She can interrupt because I know she is feeling sensitive about this. [ 
Interruption 
] Are you going to do anything about that Madam Speaker? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the member please finish his point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: I would if the Minister would shut up so I could say it. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister please sit down. Please just calm down. The Minister knows she is not to interrupt—as is no member—during a point of order. Please abide by that rule. Would Mr Rodney Hide please address his point of order so I can rule on it. 
Rodney Hide 
: Thank you. It is a very serious matter. The question that I put to the Minister was whether she would rule out people dying as a consequence of this vaccine not properly vaccinating people for the three strains of flu. What we are hearing from the Minister is that she is not prepared to rule that out. I suppose the only conclusion we can reach is that yes New Zealanders will die of the flu although they have had this vaccine because it is inadequate. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The point of order is really a supplementary question. Does the Minister wish to address that question? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: Speaking to the point of order I addressed the member’s question. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Does the Minister agree that as of today she can give assurance to only 150000 people that a fully effective vaccine is available and that according to experts that will leave 500000 people uncertain and put some of them at greater risk of hospitalisation or even death which should have been prevented? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I certainly wish we could have had the vaccine we ordered from the company. However I am pleased to say that yesterday we had 50000 doses today we have 150000 doses and the work goes on. Next week the ministry will be able to inform New Zealanders as to whether the vaccine we have purchased is able to be double-dosed. 
Rodney Hide 
: How many people Minister will die as a consequence of not being— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. If we are going to ask for strict rulings the member cannot ask a question like that; questions should be addressed through you. The member cannot ask a question in that particular kind of form. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the member please address the question in the correct form. 
Rodney Hide 
: How many people will die of the flu this winter because this vaccine does not vaccinate them against all three strains as promised? 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I do not have that information. At this stage although we have 150000 doses we are seeking more and I am hopeful we will have more before the flu hits New Zealand. If members recall flu arrived in New Zealand in September last year. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I think you need to carefully consider whether the Minister has given an answer consistent with the public good. Mr Hide asked a pretty simple question and I would have thought the Minister would know why the flu vaccine was being funded. Surely the flu vaccine is being funded because it saves lives. There must be some estimate somewhere that goes across her desk that states: “Go into the bilaterals and bid for this amount of money so that you can effectively ensure that this number of New Zealand lives are saved from death by influenza.” For the Minister to say she does not know stretches all credibility. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I suggest that we are now getting into depths of absurdity. First of all the Minister indicated to the House that work is still going on as to whether double-dosage can be used which of course would increase the potency in relation to the flu version that is not covered adequately by the current vaccine that has been ordered. The member is asking for a whole series of things in terms of assumptions that cannot possibly be arrived at at this point. The Minister clearly addressed the question and in fact gave an honest answer. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: My ruling on the point of order is that the fact the Minister said she did not know is a direct answer to the question; therefore the question was addressed. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: I seek leave to table two documents the first from the  
New Zealand Medical Journal 
 of March this year entitled “New Zealand’s Pandemic Action Plan”. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. It will not be tabled. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: The second document is a report from NewsQuest dated 15 March where Dr Peter Moodie the Medical Director of Pharmac says there is no way that Pharmac would be able to arrange to replace all 750000 Sanofi Pasteur vaccines and it now needed to work out how best to use the vaccines. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that document to be tabled. Is there any objection? There is objection. It will not be tabled. 
Hon ANNETTE KING 
: I seek leave to table a press statement from the Australian chief medical officer announcing a supply problem for the flu vaccine that was produced a day after New Zealand health professionals had been advised in New Zealand. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. The document will not be tabled.