6. Budget 2017—Climate ChangeJAMES SHAW (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister of FinanceBudget 2017—Climate Change6. JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister of Finance: Why did he not mention climate change once in his Budget speech?Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Finance): There were any number of important initiatives that did not get mentioned in the Budget speech because it is limited unfortunately to only 45 minutes. However if the member looks at the Budget in further detail he will see it makes a number of key investments in areas to reduce New Zealand's carbon footprint. If the member would like to move that next year's Budget speech be extended to 90 minutes on the basis that we are able to have the privilege to give that Budget speech I would be happy to include every possible initiative in a 90-minute speech. He will also be pleased to note a Ministry for the Environment report showing New Zealand's 2015 greenhouse gas emissions fell even as the economy and population grew.James Shaw: Why did Budget 2017 allocate only $1 million a year of new money to reduce climate pollution but an extra $210 million to subsidise polluters through the allocation of free carbon credits? Hon STEVEN JOYCE: For the member's benefit the $4 million in terms of climate change emissions work is actually policy work to develop the next stage of the Government's programme which has proven to be very effective because we are seeing the economy becoming more carbon-efficient. The Productivity Commission is currently investigating the next stages of that work so we are making good progress. We have big investments in things like the scientific investment in one of our biggest contributors to emissions which of course is the agricultural sector. That is making good progress. So the Government does invest from time to time in different initiatives but you would have to say that our emissions are heading in the right direction.James Shaw: Well in that case are New Zealand's net greenhouse gas emissions higher or lower now than when National delivered its first Budget in 2009—are they higher or lower now than they were then?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: In terms of emissions gross emissions have grown between 1990 and 2015 but they have actually flattened out in recent times despite population increases. They will always be slightly higher from 2009—James Shaw: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Hon STEVEN JOYCE: No I am just explaining to the member.James Shaw: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked whether our net greenhouse gas emissions were higher or lower. He responded with gross greenhouse gases.Mr SPEAKER: The member is absolutely right. At this stage he has responded by discussing gross emissions. The Minister has not yet completed his answer. I will deal with the matter at the end of the answer if we have not seen the issue of net emissions addressed.Hon STEVEN JOYCE: As I was saying to the member gross emissions in 2015 are slightly lower than in 2014 and have been stable since 2003. But the net emissions—I do not have the exact figures in front of me for the member but it is after all the gross emissions that are most important from the climate's perspective in terms of reducing the carbon added into the atmosphere.James Shaw: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not clear that the Minister addressed the question in terms of the net emissions since National came to power as compared with today. It was a very specific question.Mr SPEAKER: But I am absolutely clear that the Minister did. He said he did not have that exact data with him in the House today. I consider that given the general nature of the primary question that is an acceptable answer.James Shaw: May I assist by seeking leave to table documents prepared by the Parliamentary Library showing that climate pollution has increased by 20 percent since National came to power.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that particular Parliamentary Library information. Is there any objection? There is none. It can be tabled.Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House.James Shaw: How much does his Government estimate that New Zealanders will have to spend between 2021 and 2030 on paying other countries to offset New Zealand's climate pollution for us?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: That is difficult to say. It depends on a range of possible scenarios. I am sure that the Minister for Climate Change Issues would be happy to debate that with the member. Perhaps he would like to put down a question to her.James Shaw: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is actually a Budget question to the Minister of Finance in relation to the fiscal liability to New Zealand of the offset requirement.Mr SPEAKER: I accept the point the member is making but when I look at the question—how much money will New Zealand have to effectively send overseas during the period 2020 to 2021—well the Minister addressed it straight away. He said he could not finalise that figure at the moment and that it depends on a number of scenarios. So the question has been addressed—I accept not to the satisfaction of the member on this occasion but I cannot assist the member further.James Shaw: May I seek leave to table Government analysis dated 25 May 2017 showing that it will cost almost $10 billion over 10 years.Mr SPEAKER: I just want to clarify that that information is not already publicly available to all members.James Shaw: It is not.Mr SPEAKER: Then on that basis I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that particular Government analysis. Is there any objection to it being tabled? There is objection.James Shaw: Given that the OECD said last week that ambitious climate action offers numerous economic opportunities and can spur economic growth" why is his Budget not more ambitious for New Zealand when it comes to creating a low-carbon high-value economy?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: As I said to the member at the outset New Zealand actually has a strong record of improving carbon intensity. Our economy is growing and we are increasing the size of the population. But the intensity in terms of carbon emissions is dropping. I note the member has asked me a number of things about the cost of emissions out from 2021 to 2030. Those will be the subject of future Budgets. In the meantime this Government is focusing with the Productivity Commission on working through a range of next-stage options to reduce carbon emissions. We are doing that in a way that I believe the member supports. He was very positive about that Productivity Commission investigation being undertaken and we are very genuine about making sure that that is done and done well and that New Zealanders see the options and the trade-offs in reducing carbon emissions over the next decade.James Shaw: After 9 years and nine Budgets how has it gotten to the point where a young Kiwi like Sarah Thomson feels that she has to take the Government to court in order to get action on climate change?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: I would say to Sarah that this Government is very focused on reducing emissions and improving environmental outcomes but we are doing it in a way that ensures we can afford those changes by growing the economy at the same time. We could all do what the Greens want to do and handicap a whole bunch of our productive industries—and yes you would get emissions down. There are many poor countries with low emissions.Dr Megan Woods: Did he not mention climate change in his Budget speech because he did not want to draw attention to the economic distortions caused by his Government's refusal to finally bring agriculture into the emissions trading scheme?Hon STEVEN JOYCE: No. I have already given my reasons why it was not included in the speech. The speech was simply not long enough to cover every initiative. But I invite the member to go out and campaign at the upcoming election actually on charging farmers a whole bunch for emissions and she could work alongside Grant Robertson who wants to take everybody's tax reductions back.Dr Megan Woods: I seek leave to table a submission from New Zealand Oil and Gas that states that the Government's failure to bring biological emissions from the agriculture sector into the emission trading scheme is creating—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Can I just check whether that is a submission that is available publicly.Dr Megan Woods: It was a submission on the emissions trading scheme review. I am not sure whether it is available publicly.Mr SPEAKER: Then it is available to all members already."