Horan Brendan: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Horan Brendan: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 29 August 2012. Volume:683;Page:4856. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
4. 
BRENDAN HORAN (NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: Does he stand by his statement that “I think the issue about the sleepers is being over beaten-up.”? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yes. Safety is KiwiRail’s key priority and KiwiRail advised me that it would not be running services if safety had been compromised by damaged rail bridges tunnels tracks or sleepers. KiwiRail has a number of measures in place to manage rail network assets. At the core of this management practice is safety. 
Brendan Horan 
: Have KiwiRail staff been told to replace rotting sleepers with “visually sound” sleepers given that a report on inspection standards presented by national structure maintenance engineer Graham Boorman stated: “The internal condition of hardwood timber is required to be ascertained by inspection boring.”? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: There are 6 million wooden railway sleepers across the New Zealand railway network. Of those sleepers 100000 have been imported from a source that does not meet the Australian hardwood standard and 7000 have been found to have some degree of decay. There is a replacement programme. The staff are required to confirm by presumably looking at a number on those sleepers that they are meeting the Australian standard. There is a court case currently going on with the supplier of the 100000 sleepers that are potentially difficult and there are only 7000 of those that are being used across a total of 6 million. Yes they are being replaced. 
Brendan Horan 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked whether—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I apologise to the member— 
Brendan Horan 
: If I might repeat the question— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the member will resume his seat for the moment. I apologise to the member but that kind of interjection when a point of order is being heard is not on I say on this occasion to the National Party backbench. 
Brendan Horan 
: The question asked whether given that the ascertaining of the internal condition of hardwood was best done by boring into the wood he would not then instruct KiwiRail to use this method when inspecting sleepers instead of the “visually sound” test outlined in internal memos. This is a question of safety— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I am on my feet. The Minister replied by saying that it was not realistic to do drill tests on a million—what was it I cannot remember—6 million sleepers. So he did answer the member’s question that in fact that process was it seemed from the Minister’s answer not something the Minister supported. That seemed a reasonable answer to the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question asked simply whether KiwiRail staff had been told to replace rotting sleepers with “visually sound” sleepers. That is the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! [ 
Interruption 
] Order! The member has got a right to raise issues. I invite the right honourable gentleman to check the  
Hansard 
 because I am absolutely confident that was not the question. The member went on and inserted a whole lot more information about what was alleged to be in a report. If members want questions answered keep it succinct to that kind of question. Sadly his colleague added a whole lot more to the question than that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect my colleague asked whether rotting sleepers were being replaced with visually sound sleepers given that there was a report saying that the sleepers should be test bored before being used. That is simply adding information; it is not asking a second question a supplementary question or an additional question. It simply asked: “Was there an order for rotting sleepers to be replaced with ‘visually sound’ sleepers given that there was a report saying they should be inspection bored?”. That is pretty clear. He did not add anything else to it. I do not need the  
Hansard 
; I have got the question here. It was targeted to make sure it passed even your inspection. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise to the right honourable gentleman but I heard the member insert a whole lot more into his question. I could have assisted so much more if the member had asked just a simple question: “Will replacement sleepers be required to be tested by whatever?”. That is a straight question and I can make sure the Minister if it is in the public interest will answer that kind of question. But where a whole lot more stuff is put in members run the risk of Ministers being able to pick on some of that and dispute it and that is the end of the matter. I dearly would like to be able to help the member but I cannot turn the wheel back and say to the Minister: “Look the member meant to ask this and therefore I think the Minister should answer that.” I cannot do that. I have got to work with the question actually asked. The member has a further supplementary question. If he asks a specific question I will make sure that he gets an answer. 
Brendan Horan 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The first question I asked was asking about the replacement of the rotting sleepers. It was in the point of order that I actually gave the additional information but the first question was quite succinct. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As I understand it the member has two further supplementary questions. I understand what the member is trying to get and he has two questions to get it. I urge the member to ask the supplementary questions keep them succinct and let us get the answer. 
Brendan Horan 
: If public safety is important to the Minister why is KiwiRail facing a general structures inspection backlog in the South Island with some sleeper and culvert inspections being many years overdue? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: Largely due to neglect by a previous Government. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Minister believe that ascertaining the internal condition of hardwood used in transport structures is best done by boring into the wood; if so will he instruct KiwiRail to use this method— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: This is as bad as submarines in Cook Strait. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: And this is the man who got fired from his office. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I apologise—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! Look I say to David Bennett that I am on my feet. Members will be silent. The National backbenchers know that if they interject like that it will lead to disorder which is not going to be helpful to anyone. I just ask them to please be patient. The member was asking a perfectly fair question and I want to hear it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Minister believe that ascertaining the internal condition of hardwood used in transport structures is best done by boring into the wood; if so will he instruct KiwiRail to use this method when inspecting sleepers instead of the “visually sound” test outlined in internal memos? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE 
: The first point I make is that there are many engineers who will tell you that boring a hole into a beam is likely to weaken its structure so I do not think that is a particularly smart idea in every case. Secondly I would point out that every sleeper laid in New Zealand since the inception of New Zealand railways has been placed as a result of visual inspection. The third point I would make is that there are 6 million sleepers across the network. They are all supposed to meet the Australian hardwood standard; 100000 do not and 7000 of those are already placed and will be replaced because they do not meet that standard. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek to table a KiwiRail internal memo from Graham Boorman dated 5 April 2012 stating that the boring test should be undertaken unlike what the Minister has just said. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 









Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.