6. KiwiSaver Fund Providers—Investment in Cluster MunitionsJULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer AffairsKiwiSaver Fund Providers—Investment in Cluster Munitions6. JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: How many default KiwiSaver fund providers currently invest in companies that manufacture cluster bombs?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs): Ministers are not directly responsible for the investment decisions of these independent fund providers but I have seen media reports about five default KiwiSaver fund providers who may have investments in the areas described by the member. I am unable to verify that figure because Ministers are not directly responsible for these investment decisions. Julie Anne Genter: Why are Ministers not directly responsible given that it is the Government-directed savings of half a million New Zealanders that may be going into companies that produce illegal weapons of war?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: It is because New Zealanders with KiwiSaver accounts have a choice about which scheme to join and can find out what that scheme invests in. Julie Anne Genter: Does he accept that it is far simpler and easier for his Government to verify whether funds are legally and ethically compliant rather than leaving it to half a million New Zealanders who may not have that information available and it is not that easy to get from the KiwiSaver fund providers?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: In so far as there are specific legal requirements our expectations are that KiwiSaver providers will obey the law; but in so far as there are moral judgments required then we believe individual investors are best placed to make those judgments. The KiwiSaver (Periodic Disclosure) Regulations require providers to disclose the investments that they have made and the system has worked effectively in this case so that those investments have been outlined in public and providers will have to make a decision about how they respond. Julie Anne Genter: So is he saying that his Government thinks it is up for debate whether or not it is ethical for companies to produce weapons like landmines that kill 15000 to 20000 people every year—most of them children women and the elderly—and severely maim many more?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: I am not saying that; I am saying that in so far as there are specific legal requirements we expect KiwiSaver providers to obey the law. But where there are moral judgments to be made we believe that individual investors are best placed to make those moral judgments.Julie Anne Genter: What advice has he received or requested on the legality of New Zealand companies investing directly or indirectly in companies that produce cluster bombs?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: If there is a legal requirement then it is up to the appropriate enforcement agencies to enforce the law.Julie Anne Genter: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: I will allow the member to repeat the question. It may not have been understood.Julie Anne Genter: Sure. Thank you Mr Speaker. What advice has he received or requested on the legality of New Zealand companies investing directly or indirectly in companies that produce cluster bombs?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: I have asked for advice on that and there is some indication that the law relating to the Cluster Munitions Prohibition Act may apply—but that is up to the appropriate enforcement authority to decide whether or not there has been a breach of the law. Julie Anne Genter: When did he receive the advice and who is the relevant enforcement authority?Mr SPEAKER: Either of those two supplementary questions—the Hon Paul Goldsmith.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: This morning. Julie Anne Genter: Will he at the very least commit to bringing default KiwiSaver providers' investments in line with the Superannuation Fund's exclusion list in ensuring that they are legally and ethically invested?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: In so far as there are moral judgments required it is our belief that there are two choices: you can have the Government deciding those moral questions by banning particular things or you can trust the New Zealand investors to make those moral judgments based on quality advice. The scheme that we have in place insists and expects that KiwiSaver providers disclose the investments that they make. Those are publicly available. They can be searched and analysed—as they have been—and made public. The KiwiSaver providers will need to make a judgment about how comfortable they are with their offerings and individual KiwiSaver investors can make a decision. Grant Robertson: As the Minister responsible for appointing default KiwiSaver providers under section 132 of the KiwiSaver Act why has he not taken more action to assess whether the Cluster Munitions Prohibition Act 2009 makes it a criminal offence to invest in cluster munitions with a maximum penalty of 7 years' imprisonment or a fine of up to $500000?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Because if there has been any breach of the law it is up to the appropriate enforcement authorities to investigate.