Brash Don: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brash Don: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:617;Page:12624] 
2.  
Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Is she negotiating with or has she instructed any member of her Cabinet to negotiate with any members of Parliament on any aspects of the seabed and foreshore legislation; if so with whom are these negotiations taking place? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 No. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm media reports that the Government is prepared to horse-trade even greater concessions to Maori in the Foreshore and Seabed Bill in the hope of securing Ms Mahuta’s ongoing political support and will she tell the House what further concessions are under discussion? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What I can confirm is that a bill was tabled in this House on 8 April and that bill will be voted on in a first reading tomorrow. 
Stephen Franks 
: Are the provisions for ancestral connection orders in the bill up for negotiation or modification by this House; if so will the Prime Minister ensure they are confined to areas where the common law might have granted property rights instead of blanketing almost the whole coast in feudal privileges to obstruct? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member is familiar with the processes that a bill goes through in this House. I have already advised Dr Brash that a bill has been tabled. That bill will be voted on tomorrow. It will go to a select committee and submissions will be made. The committee will consider and deliberate on the bill and it will come back to the House. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: How does she ever expect to get cooperation from hapu and iwi on the Government’s ocean policy the aquaculture legislation and the marine reserves bill if the Government persists with this very unpopular legislation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government has a duty to govern for all New Zealanders and from the outset when the Court of Appeal decision arose the Government made it clear it would govern for all New Zealanders. That meant it upheld the birthright of every New Zealander to enjoy and have access to the coastal marine area but the Government also said from the outset that it would respect the customary position of Maori. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Why would Nanaia Mahuta have stated to TV3 yesterday that she believed there was still “room to move” on the— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is one of those questions where it seems immediately there cannot be responsibility by the Minister. Why would another member have said something about a matter for which the Prime Minister has responsibility? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will listen to the question in its entirety and then I will judge that. So far there is nothing yet that the Prime Minister has to answer. But if the member is going to tie that into something then of course he will be able to do so. For my sake anyway could the member start the question again. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Why would Nanaia Mahuta have stated to TV3 yesterday that she believed that there was still “room to move” on the seabed and foreshore legislation if she had not received some indication from the Government that it was prepared to negotiate and can the Prime Minister tell the House just what room to move the Government has under discussion? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I would assume that Ms Mahuta as a member of Parliament with 7½ years’ experience was referring to the select committee process during which everyone can make their views known. Dr Brash as a member of very little experience who has probably never sat on a select committee would not know that. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why does she not just walk down the steps and say to the thousands outside Maori and Pakeha: “We hear your distress. Let’s put this on hold. Let’s sit around the table together and work out a solution that will meet the needs of all New Zealanders”— [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Mr Hide is to leave the Chamber. I warned people about interjecting. The member will start her question all over again. 
Rodney Hide withdrew from the Chamber. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. One presumes you also heard—because I heard it clearly and I am not far from you—the senior Labour whip interject at the same time. She can put on whatever face she likes but she certainly interjected. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Did the member interject? 
Jill Pettis 
: No. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member’s word will be accepted. Please restate the question. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wonder whether the member who I think may well be now engaging in one of those exercises that the Hon Ruth Dyson engages in said that she did not interject because— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Come to the point of order. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: She called out but in her mind perhaps it was not an interjection. Perhaps it was just something friendly she was shouting out. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I asked the member whether she had interjected and she said “No.” Her word must be accepted. That is part of the rules of this House. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It really comes down to which member’s word you take because a number of members on the Opposition side of the House heard the senior Government whip say in a loud voice: “Let’s all hold hands.” That was the interjection. It was a derogatory comment directed at Jeanette Fitzsimons and I do not see how it could be seen as anything other than a heckle of at least the same magnitude as Mr Hide’s. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member should know from the Standing Orders that members always accept the word of a member about that member’s action and that is where that matter ends. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The problem now is that in view of the fact that you have accepted one member’s word you are now saying that the word of Mr Sowry who has made a statement and Mr Brownlee who has also made a statement is not to be accepted. There are a number of members in this House who will stand and say they did hear that statement by the senior Government whip. The fact is that we now enter into a real problem of whose word you take. In this case you have decided to take the word of the Labour member against the word of National members. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I have not. I am taking the word of the honourable member of whom I asked an explicit question. There is a way of proceeding in this House around that and the member knows how to do it. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why does the Prime Minister not just walk down the steps and say to those outside Maori and Pakeha: “We hear your distress. Let us put this on hold and sit around the table together to design a solution that builds on our common ground and that meets the needs of all New Zealanders.”; would that not start the healing process and give her enormous mana? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I suggest that to do what the member suggests would cause a great deal more distress to most people who want to see the issue moved on. We hear the concern being expressed but my message is that we must govern in the interests of all New Zealanders to get a fair balance which is what we are striving for. 
Stephen Franks 
: From the Prime Minister’s answers to the previous supplementary questions about the scope for change or negotiation in which she said it was in the hands of House are we to take it that she is acknowledging she no longer controls enough of a majority in the House to determine what those outcomes may be? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member is familiar with parliamentary process. When bills come in and go to select committees Governments—and I hope Oppositions—give those who make submissions the courtesy of listening to what they say. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that her bold assertions that she has the numbers to pass this year’s Budget are based on the presumption that Mrs Turia and possibly Ms Mahuta will be out of Parliament contesting by-elections at that time; and can she tell the House when she will be able to identify a certain majority and deliver stable Government? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The first part of that question is out of order. I will allow the member to rephrase it because it has nothing to do with the original question. Could the member rephrase the question in light of the primary question that he asked at the start? [ 
Interruption 
] I am asking only one member to ask the supplementary question. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member clearly needs some time. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There are to be no interjections during a point of order. That point of order was a frivolous one. 
Dr Don Brash 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It seems clear to me that the question is about the capacity of the Government to negotiate with members to seek support for legislation that it has before the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is perfectly correct on the seabed legislation but not on the Budget. This question is about the seabed legislation—that was specifically mentioned in the question. The member may wish to ask a supplementary question. I will allow him to do so. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Let me try to rephrase the question. The Prime Minister has asserted that she has sufficient support to pass legislation in this House. How long does that seem likely to take place and is she basing that on the assumption that Ms Mahuta and Mrs Turia will be out of the House contesting by-elections over the next several months? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: My confidence is based on the absolute certainty that a clear majority of members of this House prefer a Labour-led Government.