Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Kaipara ki Mahurangi): Thank you Madam Chair. The clause within Part 2 that I'm particularly interested in apart from of course the one that my colleague and friend has already been interrogating—but I won't tread on his toes to the extent of going to that same space at the moment—is clause 16 Independence of Statistician" and the related points around delegation. It seems to me to be really interesting and at the heart of what we should concern ourselves with as a Parliament and as the committee of the whole House today in relation to those safeguards that we would hope for and expect on behalf of the good people of New Zealand.I turn to clause 16(1) "The Statistician has the sole responsibility for deciding on—(a) the production of statistics by the Statistician including"—and it lists various matters—"and (b) the timing manner and content of the dissemination and communication of those statistics." So these are important points to establish lines of accountability for. So my first cluster of questions so to speak to the Minister is around the subject of accountability. If the Statistician has sole responsibility for deciding on these matters how is that person accountable for the decisions? Are we to understand that "sole responsibility" means that these can't be questioned by other authorities—and I'll give some examples in a minute—and do we also take it that sole responsibility means that in the Statistician's honest or reasonable belief these things are being done in an appropriate manner? For example I would be keen for the Minister in conjunction with his officials to address the question of ministerial accountability. It's proper sometimes that there is a measure of independence in these matters and certainly we wouldn't want the Government of the day of whatever stripe to be acting in a way that eroded the independence of the Statistician. But the flip side of course is that if the Statistician is able to act in way that's independent but not accountable then we should be concerned about that.So there's the ministerial responsibility question. We've got a system of responsible Government in this country and I use the term quite loosely and in a political sense I suppose to underline that point of my own. But we have a responsible Government in the sense that the Government of the day the Cabinet and whatever other arrangements prevail in MMP are such that the people have the right to elect those who will run the country and be accountable for their decisions. The Statistician is outside that so the first question is on ministerial responsibility. The second is: can the Minister provide some assurance to the committee and indeed the country as a whole about the ability of the Ombudsman as an Officer of Parliament to be able to interrogate decisions notwithstanding that the Statistician is solely responsible for them? The courts too—would judicial review be available to interrogate the decisions of the executive if a person or an organisation feels as though they've been hard done by just to use that colloquialism—to use that phrase? It's a bit early in the morning for this. Anyway just some thoughts about accountability versus independence please.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Statistics): Thank you Madam Chair. These are important questions that the member raises and that we're canvassing in the debate. The Minister is responsible—I alluded to this earlier but I think it's a point worth reinforcing also in this part of the bill because it's actually laid out here. The Minister is responsible for the "what" of statistics and the Government Statistician is responsible for the "how". So clause 11 outlines very clearly that "The Minister has the following functions and powers under this Act: (a) to specify the Government's data and statistical priorities: (b) to approve the multi-year data and statistical programme required under section 18: (c) to approve joint collection agreements under section 24: (d) to exercise the power in section 28(3) (certain requests for data require approval by Minister): (e) to exercise the power in section 44 (Minister may direct Statistician to produce or cease production of statistics on matter)." These are carried over essentially from the previous Act and likewise the material around the independence of the Statistician laid out in clause 16 is beautifully succinct. The Statistician is responsible for the "how" essentially but it's laid out here in clause 16(1) which states "The Statistician has the sole responsibility for deciding on—(a) the production of statistics by the Statistician including the selection of data sources concepts definitions methods and classifications to be used;" and in clause 16(2): "This section is subject to section 44." So it's right there.In terms of the accountabilities which the member raises as well the Government Statistician is accountable for every decision made by a delegate. The bill hard-wires in legal obligations regarding independence and confidentiality which apply to any delegate and it's a criminal offence to wrongfully obtain data while acting as a delegate of the Government Statistician which is in clause 79 of the bill. I think these things are really important to hard-wire into the legislation so that there are those accountabilities. What we're talking about here is in some cases people's sensitive personal data. In some cases it's kind of more economic data that no one would get upset about but it's still right and important to have the principles right and laid out and the accountabilities. So I welcome the member raising these as important points to cover in the debate."