Costley Tim; Bidois DanTIM COSTLEY (National—Ōtaki): Thank you Madam Chair. You'll have to forgive me if I sound a little bit like the MP for Wairarapa at the moment. I don't have a lot of voice this week. But I do want to speak on this bill. In particular I want to ask the member about the three-year time frame and how we landed on that number. We've heard some examples from the other side of the committee particularly all of them so far are around large corporates. I'm more thinking about the smaller businesses in the Horowhenua and in Kāpiti that are impacted by this.I think we've all had the experience—I have to confess that at Christmas last year when I was eventually persuaded convinced told to tidy up the wardrobe I found a Mitre 10 gift card from the previous Christmas which had then expired of course because it's from the date of sale not the actual date of Christmas when I got it. I always love to support Vince and Trish; they do great stuff in the community from our local Mitre 10. But we've all had that experience.But how did we shift to three years and how is it that we landed on exactly three years? I think about the small businesses in Ōtaki that are potentially impacted by this. I'm interested to know the feedback that you had during maybe the select committee process and of course as you've traversed this bill through the legislative process with that three years.I was pleased to hear the comment if not surprised from the other side of the committee there was a petrol station example and hey this is Kiwis hard-earned money. I commend that view from the other side of the committee. I wish we had it for the last six years when they were spending taxes to be fair. But it is people's hard-earned money. How did we land on a balance of three years?I understand the purpose of this bill is of course to extend the longevity of these cards to extend the date range through which they can be used so that Kiwis get a fair shot at using what they have invested—to use that expression—their hard-earned money into to make sure they can actually redeem it and use it. But of course there has to be a balance to this these gift cards. Although I acknowledge the company has received the money at one point in time they ultimately become also a liability on the books for businesses. As time goes on—and I think that's the last six years and rampant inflation that we were suffering of course—what was paid for for $20 at one point three years later—Cameron Brewer: Worth nothing—worth nothing.TIM COSTLEY: Well there's some truth to that right? Suddenly the liability level changes. So there has to be a point—there has to be a balancing of these points a fairness to Kiwi consumers to be able to go and redeem what they paid for or their loved one who maybe gave this to them as a gift but balancing that against a pragmatic approach to the small businesses that are doing their best.I think of another great local business in Otaihanga that I was speaking with recently. They were saying that the business being sold impacted a number of regulations. But there are a number of our smaller businesses that maybe don't have the full reckons of exactly what liability they hold in terms of some of these vouchers and you know if it's three years down the track it sold after two years how much of a liability is this? That may present some issues.So I'm interested in how it is that we were able to land on that three-year period. It seems to me that that's a pretty balanced view that you've taken but I'm really interested to know perhaps what feedback you've had. Have you heard from small businesses and not just the big chains that we've heard about from the other side of the committee but from the small businesses the local businesses mum and dad that have been going out there?It was a good point that was made about different forms that these cards and vouchers can come on—online through apps. I think the spirit of the intent of the bill is pretty clear in terms of what you want to capture. But for these smaller businesses what feedback specifically have we heard from them? Was there consideration for example given to a two-year or a five-year or not even having a limit? I heard from some people earlier on in the process that maybe there shouldn't be a limit at all that once there is an exchange of monetary value should there be that? But I think as I've said we have to balance up the pragmatic approach for these businesses that there must be a finite point so that that liability can be moved off the books one way or another? There is some fairness that if you've got this albeit it might be lost in my wardrobe but it needs to be spent at some point. So I don't think we want that to carry on for ever.But I wouldn't be doing this justice if I didn't represent the small businesses from places like Foxton and Levin and Ōtaki from Waikanae from Paraparaumu and just making sure that we have heard from those businesses. Have we heard that and did that support us landing on this date of three years in terms of balancing up the consumer and the business needs? I'd be interested in hearing the member's comments on that.DAN BIDOIS (National—Northcote): Madam Chair thank you. I thank the member from Ōtaki for his question. I know that it comes from a place of strong advocacy for the small-business community in his electorate.There are a lot of gift cards that currently have around a 12-month expiry date. The Economic Development Science and Innovation Committee actually heard a range of submissions around different levels and length of periods for the expiry dates. Actually in fact if you look overseas the US and Ireland have a five-year minimum term for expiry dates. Canada actually doesn't have an expiry date limit so it actually requires no expiry date on it at all. So the select committee considered a wide range of recommendations around the level of years for the expiry and the committee felt that actually the three years we landed on was about the right balance which is what the member wanted to hear about.Personally I think there was a sort of strong case to go even further and we did have submissions that were advocating for such. But where we landed was certainly that three years was about the right balance—the balance between empowering consumers but also making sure that businesses don't end up with a perpetual liability on their balance sheets.In terms of the member's questions around consulting really really small businesses we did have submissions from for example Booksellers Aotearoa New Zealand that does represent a lot of small independent booksellers in New Zealand; also Retail New Zealand which represents a huge amount of small retail outlets across the country and they were certainly of the view of actually I think supportive of at least a three-year minimum expiry or further.So again the member's questions I think really were about balance. I think the select committee got the right balance based on the submissions and the feedback that we heard in the select committee process.