Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:642;Page:12432] 
7.  
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: How does he respond to the concerns of the Serious Fraud Office in relation to the Wayne Patterson benefit fraud investigation that “The role adopted by the Ministry as the investigator the prosecutor and the political adviser on this significant fraud in which it was also the victim does raise perception issues that would have been avoided had the Police or the Serious Fraud Office been responsible for the investigation and the prosecution.”? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Acting Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Although this is clearly an operational matter between the ministry and the Serious Fraud Office I am advised that the ministry informed the police of this case as soon as the scale and the nature of the offending was identified. That was the correct thing to do. The protocol at the time was for the police to engage the Serious Fraud Office. The ministry worked closely with the New Zealand Police the Department of Internal Affairs the Crown Law Office the Crown-warranted criminal prosecutors and forensic accountants and it liaised with the Inland Revenue Department. I point out that Mr Wayne Patterson was sentenced to 8 years in prison. All of the money he stole will be recovered. An additional $467000 on top of that will be returned to the Crown so I fail to see how this was an inappropriate way to conduct an investigation that was supported by the police and by forensic accountants. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister agree with the Serious Fraud Office that aspects of the investigation did not meet professional standards; if not why not? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I do not for the reasons I outlined in my substantive answer. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister think the Ministry of Social Development was acting professionally when it took a full week from 26 September to 3 October for the ministry’s senior fraud investigator to take Kiwibank’s notification of suspicious activity any further because she “couldn’t open the spreadsheet”? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I believe that this investigation into what was a one-off extraordinary case resulted in the full recovery of all money stolen plus nearly $500000 on top of that. As I said in answer to the member’s first question I fail to see how the department could have done any better than that. 
Judith Collins 
: Is the Minister aware that when the Ministry of Social Development’s senior fraud investigator received a call from the Department of Internal Affairs on 2 October offering assistance with Operation Sparky the ministry investigator admitted that she did not know what he was talking about because even though she had received an email about a potential fraud with a spreadsheet containing 14 identities 6 days earlier she had not been able to open that spreadsheet; and does the Minister agree that this amateurish response suggests that the investigation would have been better handled by the Serious Fraud Office or the police? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I do not. I point out to the member that the end result—which as I have repeatedly pointed out to her is quite an outstanding one—may well not have been achieved by the Serious Fraud Office. The Serious Fraud Office focuses on prosecution and conviction. We have a prosecution we have a conviction we have our money back and we have nearly $500000 on top of it. That is not a bad result. 
Judith Collins 
: When the Minister said yesterday that the conclusion of this investigation shows the way this was handled was obviously very effective did he know then that his senior investigator had no idea what was going on for well over a week and could not open a simple spreadsheet; and how can the public have confidence that there is not another Wayne Patterson story sitting in a spreadsheet somewhere? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I doubt that there is a person out there with 123 unique identities at the present time taking money from any particular system given the judge’s saying that this was one of the most unique cases he had ever heard. But what I do not doubt is that this investigation has got all the money back plus $500000 and that the person was prosecuted and is currently sitting in prison for 8 years. It is not a bad result. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Does the Ministry of Social Development have computer skills courses to improve its staff’s skills in this area and might those courses be shared by members opposite who as  
The Hollow Men 
 showed in the case of Bill English Gerry Brownlee Nick Smith Don Brash and John Key had their emails on a broadcast system? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The first part of the question is in order not the second. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I can confirm that the ministry is constantly lifting the skills of— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. How can the first part of that question be in order Madam Speaker? The member asked whether the skills he spoke of would be shared by the National Party. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No that is not what was said. The member needs to listen like I have to. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Well I can hardly hear. That is the problem. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well maybe the member would like to talk to his colleagues and to the colleagues on this side. There is a lot of chattering going on as well as interjections. Members need to lower it. The first part of the question was purely within the ministerial responsibility but I ruled that the second part was totally out of order. Would the Minister please respond. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I can confirm that the ministry is constantly lifting the skills of its staff around all sorts of areas including computers. If people are enrolled with the ministry as some people may well be at some time in their lives then they will have the opportunity to go on computer courses as well.