Henare Peeni; Mallard TrevorPEENI HENARE (Labour—Tāmaki Makaurau): Tēnā koe Mr Chair. Interesting—the Minister talks about tikanga ki tēnā hapū whānau and iwi and the ability for Māori to be able to utilise that and I just want to quickly touch on something. Why then in this particular bill does the court have the ability to appoint a kaiwhakahaere? The interpretation in the bill of the kaiwhakahaere" is actually quite far removed from whānau involvement but we will get to that part a little bit later on. [Interruption] According to this Minister Flavell it is actually appointed by the court and later on it then says that the kaiwhakahaere does not have to have the involvement of whānau. But like I said we will get to that one a little bit later. People such as Ngāpuhi we are a victim of our own success—our ability to breed. I can tell the Minister that in fact in his own electorate one in three babies born is Ngāpuhi. Hey that is just the strength of Ngāpuhi. So as a result we do have this tīmokamoka which is the Māori word about a fragmentation of shares. I want to commend in this particular part of the bill Minister the ability for whānau trusts to be able to be established to make sure hei whakatōpū i ngā hea [to amalgamate the shares]. I think that is a good thing. But I do have just one question with regard to that Minister. It is just for clarification purposes. It is about clause 59(3)(d) which states "other property including other land." I just want a bit of clarification Minister around exactly what "other property including other land." means. The clause is quite clear about the beneficial interest in the freehold estate in one or more parcels of Māori freehold land—I understand that—and the beneficial interest in one or more individual freehold interests in the freehold estate in one or more parcels of Māori freehold land and so on. But then it gets to paragraph (d) and it says "other property including other land." Are we talking about private land ownership separate from Māori shares and separate from Māori freehold land ownership? I wonder whether that also includes private property as it states there—"other property". So I just want a little bit of clarification but I do want to commend the Minister for this particular part of the bill because it is an important thing. For whānau who wish to collect all of the shares as a result of "Our grandmother had 1000 shares and now she has almost 1000 mokopuna and so each one gets however many shares."—you do the maths—Marama Fox: One. PEENI HENARE: Well no because she might have had children and the children are still alive—ah. So you do the maths. It is important to make sure that you bring it together but it is more important that there is a mechanism for that process through this particular bill because the experience of Māori land owners—certainly in Ngāti Hine which this bill has a serious effect on—has been that it is actually quite difficult to establish whānau trusts to do that. So I would like just a bit of clarification around that please Minister. I do want to go back to clause 51A and it is the bit about the thresholds. It would have been heard in the count of the votes earlier that maybe my maths is not the best but I do want just a little bit of clarification. In clause 51A(3)(b) it says that if "there are more than 10 but not more than 100 owners"—straightforward—"there must be participation by at least 10 owners whose individual freehold interests total a 25% or more share in the parcel:". Is that suggesting that 10 or 11 owners can come together out of 15 shareholders across the entire block yet the entire one owner or the final four in this particular instance who holds the majority of the shares—say 74 percent of the shares—can still be overturned by a smaller number of shareholders who actually own collectively a smaller percentage of shares? That is a serious issue—to think that if there are more than 10 but no more than 100 owners there must be a participation of at least 10 owners. So 11 of those people can come together in a 20-person shareholding and individually they might have small shares but collectively with 11 they will have 25 or 26 percent. That is of real concern because the remainder of the shareholders actually own close to 74 percent of the share. So I am just asking for some clarification around those particular numbers with a particular focus on—while I understand the intent of these types of mechanisms the reality on the marae of say the Ngati Hine Forestry Trust AGM according to these kinds of numbers these thresholds and these requirements almost requires genius computer applications just to crunch these numbers to get through the process of an AGM in 1 day. So I am questioning here—while I understand the intent I wonder whether the Minister can actually explain a little bit more about the roll-out and its application on the marae. When you have got owners and beneficiaries numbering approximately 4500 you get a high participation rate of—sorry Mr Chair—The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard): I apologise for interrupting the member. The time has come for me to report progress. Progress to be reported presently.House resumed.The Chairperson reported progress on the Appropriation (2015/16 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and progress on Te Ture Whenua Māori Bill.Report adopted.The House adjourned at 9.56 p.m."