McClay Todd; Davis Kelvin; Rurawhe AdrianHon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Thank you Mr Chair. If I could ask the Minister of Tourism: if he's saying to the committee based on the questions that have been asked of the Budget the Estimates that he's not responsible for small tourism businesses because that's for the Minister for Small Business and he's not responsible for large tourism businesses because I suppose that's the Minister for large businesses" exactly what tourism businesses does he believe he is responsible for? Could I secondly ask him: in as far as the $400 million that came through the Budget to help tourism businesses—large businesses and small businesses one assumes—why has he not been able to answer in this Chamber or in the committee to the number of jobs that are estimated to have been lost and therefore with the $400 million to the tourism sector—doesn't feel like it's targeted or focused—how many of those jobs will be saved?I do remember the Minister has said in this Chamber it's very hard to know what a job is in tourism and therefore there haven't been any estimates. Can he tell the committee why it is that Treasury released advice that went to him saying that 92000 jobs would be lost in the tourism sector yet he wasn't able to come to the select committee or stand up in the House and remember that advice? The $400 million that the Government has allocated to itself to spend so far on what to the tourism sector feels like or seems like businesses that will get the best media coverage when the Prime Minister announces the funding is $400 million from the taxpayer. There are more than 400000 people directly or indirectly employed in the tourism sector; 92000 of them Treasury says are likely to lose their jobs. Can the Minister tell the committee today: of the $400 million that's been allocated to tourism—to tourism not to small businesses Minister not to the large business Minister but to the tourism sector under him and his portfolio—how many of those 92000 jobs will be saved?Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Tourism): Let me say that the $400 million is going to make a better difference than the paltry $100 million that the Opposition was offering—$25 million a year for four years. In terms of the number of jobs we've always said that we won't be able to save every business and every job and that goes not just for tourism. We have had 743 tourism businesses access the tourism transitions. The number of jobs that have been saved because of that are difficult to estimate because we know that not every job can be saved. But what we are doing is helping to save a number of businesses as well. We'll be making as I've said announcements in the not too distant future about other businesses that will be receiving support from the stat fund and again it's difficult to announce or estimate exactly how many jobs will be saved through that support because businesses have to make those decisions. We still don't know when the borders will open and what we're doing is trying to give businesses the best chance to survive and see through until the international visitors do come. But let me say that our $400 million in the here and now is a lot better than the $25 million a year for four years that the Opposition announced as the tourism policy and that had all the bounce of a rock.Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Thank you Mr Chair. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough earlier. Treasury has estimated that 92000 New Zealanders will lose their jobs in the tourism sector as a result of COVID-19. You Minister have gone to your colleagues and asked for $400 million to support tourism. I'm asking you directly what advice you sought or received of the 92000 New Zealanders that Treasury have forecast will be made unemployed in the tourism sector. How many will be saved as a result of the $400 million? If the answer is "I didn't ask." or "They didn't tell me." then the tourism sector deserves to know that. But Minister for $400 million to be committed to be spent and for you to say it's hard to know how many jobs will be saved which is the same as saying "I don't know." frankly is not good enough for the tourism sector—those 92000 people who are to be made unemployed—and it's not good enough for the taxpayer.Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Tourism): The circumstances have changed quite rapidly from the time when we announced that fund—the $400 million fund—through to now. For example we were hoping that we'd be able to tide many businesses over until the trans-Tasman bubble was able to be opened. We were hoping that it would be in a matter of months from May. Obviously that has now changed. Circumstances worldwide have changed. If the member hasn't been watching the news he will see that Australia which were looking like they were getting COVID under control and were hopeful for the trans-Tasman bubble—that of course has now blown out with the hundreds and hundreds of cases that we're seeing in Melbourne and in Victoria. Things are changing so it is difficult to estimate just how many jobs will be saved. But the reality is that our $400 million is a lot better than their $25 million a year for four years that actually did nothing.Hon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Well to the Minister can I ask him: does he not think for the 92000 people that Treasury have said will lose their jobs that his hope is just frankly not good enough? What you've said Minister is between when the $400 million was agreed by Cabinet to today lots of things have changed. Well of course lots of things have changed. My question to you though Minister was not "Is it difficult to estimate today because your hopes for the tourism sector haven't worked out?" My question was: when you got the $400 million to spend in the tourism sector what advice did you ask for and seek as to how many of the 92000 jobs would be saved? If the answer is Minister you didn't ask then say so and the tourism sector will understand what that means.It's not good enough frankly to stand up here in the committee and say "Well it's hard to know today because a few things have changed." If you're going to spend $400 million in the tourism sector to save businesses and to save jobs is it too much to expect that you ask what the best way is to save these jobs and how many jobs will be saved because Minister you didn't remember that Treasury had forecast 92000 jobs would be lost?Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Tourism): We actually asked the tourism sector itself what they wanted and what we have done is created a programme—CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I'm sorry to interrupt the Minister but it's come time for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break.Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m."