Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:616;Page:12523] 
6.  
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Immigration 
: Does his estimated cost to the taxpayer of $247000 associated with Ahmed Zaoui include the cost of lawyers acting for the Crown Security Intelligence Service costs legal costs surrounding the removal of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security from the Zaoui case and the cost of any experts or witnesses who have given information pertaining to the case; if so what is the total amount? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Immigration) 
: 
 No. As I advised the member yesterday a number of costs associated with this case are yet to be determined. However I have been advised that the Crown Law Office estimates that $114700 of immigration costs have been incurred in relation to the Zaoui case to date. This estimate does not include costs charged to departments outside my portfolio areas. As a number of matters are still outstanding I expect that associated costs will be higher than those estimated to date. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why is it that—and this question was raised as early as 29 July last year—we in this House and the public cannot get an idea of the up-to-date costs in any accurate way when those costs may well be twice what the House has been told thus far; in short up to $500000 already if we include all the lawyers acting for the Crown and not just the lawyers acting for Zaoui and on the teat? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: As I indicated yesterday and today there are still a number of outstanding costs. But I think it is fair to say as I have said before that the ultimate costs of this case will be higher than the cumulative figures I have been able to estimate to date. 
Keith Locke 
: Has the Government received value for money given the gross incompetence of both the SIS and Government lawyers in the Zaoui affair and are the lawyers who have been paid for advising the Government that Mr Zaoui cannot be transferred from prison to the Mangere Refugee Resettlement Centre the same lawyers who were paid for advice in the three Zaoui court cases so far—all of which the Government has lost? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I reject the first allegation but regarding the second allegation the advice I have received is exactly as the member has alluded to. 
Keith Locke 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister did not quite answer my question because it was specifically: are the lawyers— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister did answer. He said he rejected the member’s allegation and that is a specific answer. 
Keith Locke 
: Could I just— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well the member can but the Minister has addressed the question perfectly in my view to the satisfaction of the Standing Orders. 
Keith Locke 
: I wanted to make the point that I asked specifically whether it was the same lawyers in the question of the prison transfer as also gave advice in the other three cases. That is the specific question I want an answer to. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If members put statements into their questions Ministers are entitled to answer by refuting those statements. That is addressing the question. If members do not want their statements refuted they should not make them. 
Hon Matt Robson 
: Have the Belgian and French Governments offered to help reduce costs by having extradition orders against Mr Zaoui seeing that he has suspended sentences in their countries? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Not that I am aware. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My concern is that although I went to significant effort to try to outline the costs I am not getting an answer. I do not think that is fair and reasonable. What can I do about it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All I can say is that the Minister addressed the question. It might not satisfy the member as it often does not but that is a matter for debate for further question and for other things to occur. I cannot do anything as Speaker about that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not wish to contest your ruling but when we ask for specific areas of cost analysis and evaluation and the Minister will not tell us then I am sorry to say we are wasting our time here. I think I am entitled to it. He could at least have said that he would let me know next week or the week after but to get the same answer a year later is not reasonable. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: In relation to the last point the member made the full costs will come out in due course—presumably when this case is resolved. In the meantime there are still ongoing matters relating to it so it is absolutely impossible to say exactly what the actual costs will be at the end of the case. I have outlined the amount we have been able to estimate to date. There are a number of matters relating to areas outside my portfolio that I do not have estimates on just yet.