Smith Lockwood: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Smith Lockwood: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:645;Page:14260] 
12.  
Dr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National—Rodney) 
 to the  
Minister of Statistics 
: How many permanent and long-term departures to Australia were there for the year ended December 2007? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Minister of Statistics) 
: 
 The figure is 41634 but this figure includes all departures not just those of New Zealand citizens. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Is it correct that that exodus to Australia last year represented a loss of 800 people every week and was that the largest exodus since 1988 when Labour was last in Government? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: It was the largest number in the time period the member refers to but in terms of percentage of New Zealand’s population the number was roughly the same as it was when the National Party was in Government in the 1990s until 1999. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Can the Minister confirm that the net loss to Australia last year of 28000 people represented an increase of over a third since 2006 and almost three times the net loss of 10000 in 2003? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I can confirm that there was a net outflow of 28000 people a quarter of whom were children. That was the outflow for December 2007. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Can the Minister confirm that New Zealand experienced a net outflow of 32700 New Zealand citizens last year and that a recent survey has shown that New Zealand has the largest brain drain of native-born tertiary-trained people in the whole of the OECD? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I cannot confirm that we have what the member said in terms of that study. What I can confirm though is that demographers expect New Zealand to be a net gainer in terms of skills through migration policy and that will continue and that over the cycle in different years there is a different outflow in migration. The member should not hang his hat on just 1 year. 
Darien Fenton 
: Has the Minister received any statistics on the patterns of wage growth in New Zealand and Australia? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Yes I have. The wage gap grew between— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. That question is extremely wide of the wicket. We are talking about immigration here and suddenly the Minister is asked for statistics on wages. Everyone knows that the answer will be incredibly embarrassing for the Government. I suggest the question should not stand. It is not fair to poor old Darren. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I know that Mr Key is not here to advise the member on this but Mr Key has been saying for some weeks that the driver of this so-called exodus is higher wages in Australia. Mr Darren Hughes is about to inform the member that that gap opened up hugely in the 1990s under a National Government when the exodus to Australia increased every year—under a National Government. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Yes I have received a report about the wage gap between the two countries and I can confirm that the wage gap—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Would the Minister please be seated. The question is about statistics. The Minister has responsibility for statistics. Would the Minister now please address the question. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Thank you Madam Speaker. Yes I have received a report on this matter and I thank the member for the question because the report shows that the gap between wages in Australia and wages in New Zealand grew by 50 percent between 1990 and 1999 when the National Party was in Government and that since the Labour Party has led the Government in New Zealand wages here and wages in Australia have grown at about the same rate. But clearly we have more to do and the Prime Minister’s statement on Tuesday showed how we are going to do it. 
Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith 
: Given that the Minister is keen to compare performance under National and Labour is it correct that the net loss of New Zealanders to Australia has more than doubled from the 9000 per year under the National Government in the 1990s to an average now of 20000 a year under this Labour Government and why do so many New Zealanders want to leave under a Labour Government? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I have good news for the member. There are 400000 more people in New Zealand since the Labour Party took office in 1999. The population outflow to Australia in 1999 under a National Government was 0.6 percent of the population and the outflow to Australia under this Government is 0.7 percent. In comparing 0.6 percent when we took over and 0.7 percent now we should consider the bigger size of the population now. I would not be running down New Zealand too much on those statistics. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I accept that you ruled that the Hon Darren Hughes should answer the question that had been asked by Darien Fenton but if the subsequent comments that you made were to become a ruling then I think that would significantly expand the scope for asking a question in the House. I wonder whether you might consider giving us some guidance on Tuesday as to whether the interpretation we are putting on— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. I think this is a matter where one judges each case as it comes up in terms of the question.