edithatogo/nz-hansard-corpus huggingface dataset:
Carter John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Carter John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:249] 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Minister of Civil Defence) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Goodhew Jo: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Goodhew Jo: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:248] 
JO GOODHEW (National—Rangitata) 
: 
 I move that the motion be now put.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:233] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 3 excluding clause 29 be agreed to. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Part 3 excluding clause 29 agreed to.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:233] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Noes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Amendment not agreed to.
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:232] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 My understanding was that the veto can be withdrawn. One assumes that the Maori Party has now been persuaded to vote against the amendment. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Can I just say to the Committee that I have been handed by the Clerk a handwritten note signed by the Hon Bill English Minister of Finance stating: “I hereby withdraw the financial veto”. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen to Part 3 be agreed to: 
To insert the following new clause: 
30A Section LC2A Compensatory Tax Credit for low-income earners and others. 
A person who under this Act would pay more tax than they would have done under the provisions of the Taxation (Personal Tax Cuts Annual Rates and Remedial matters) Act 2008 shall be entitled to a Compensatory Tax Credit equal to the difference between the tax otherwise payable under this Act and the tax payable under the Taxation (Personal Tax Cuts Annual Rates and Remedial Matters) Act 2008.
Cunliffe David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Cunliffe David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:232] 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I think the Chamber finds itself in quite an interesting situation. As members are aware a document was presented on the Table and it was signed by the Minister of Finance; it was a signed declaration of a financial veto. Not only was it signed and distributed to Parliament and has since been distributed publicly but it also happened on the basis of a quantification of some $750 million. That is a large amount of money. If it were the case that the Minister signed that document it must be true because otherwise he would have signed an inappropriate document—and I am sure he would not have done that. If it is true it cannot be withdrawn because the Government would have grounds to apply the veto and the Chamber finds itself in an extraordinary situation. Is the Government now committing to fund the motion that the Minister has proposed?
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:232] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Can I just be clear that this is the amendment in my name that ensures a compensatory tax credit so that nobody suffers in the difference between the current tax rates and the new tax rates if he or she makes a loss on it. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The question I have here is the amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen. This is the one. We are all clear on the question? OK.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:232] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question now be put. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The question is that new clause 30A in the name of the Hon Dr Michael Cullen be agreed to.
Henare Tau: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Henare Tau: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:232] 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Shanks Katrina: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Shanks Katrina: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:231] 
KATRINA SHANKS (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Carter John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Carter John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:228] 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Minister of Civil Defence) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Douglas Roger: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Douglas Roger: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:226] 
Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT) 
: 
 Mr Chairman— 
Hon Members 
: Hooray! 
Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS 
: Well I was not going to say anything but you know how could one resist after listening to the Labour Opposition. The Committee on this bill has spent a considerable amount of time this afternoon and this evening debating whether this taxation bill helps or hurts low-income taxpayers—whether it helps to restore the margin between low-income workers and those on benefits in order to encourage them to seek work. I believe that the bill does help achieve both of these objectives. 
Let us look at the issue of whether this bill in fact helps low-income earners or whether it helps the rich. The Opposition has claimed throughout this debate that the decision to hold the 12.5c rate to the $14000 tax bracket rather than raise it to $20000 was designed to hurt low-income people. Not so. Not so. If we put aside beneficiaries whose income in whole or in large proportion comes from the Government we come to realise that the people who are in the tax bracket zero to $20000 all—or a vast majority; 90-plus percent of them—come from high-income households or they are people with high assets. So the people who are in the zero to $20000 tax bracket come from high-income households. They are the sons and daughters of the rich or the partner the wife or the husband of a very high-income earner. In fact if we look at Michael Cullen’s 2008 Budget and the tax changes in it we see that it was an invitation to income split. He created a new industry with that Budget—accountants going to their clients and helping them income split. So the Michael Cullen Budget was designed to help the rich and the high-income earners by enabling them to income split—hardly the action of a party that wants to help those on low-incomes. So the reality is in fact a lot different from the rhetoric of those members. 
The group of taxpayers who need tax relief are those who fall within the 21c tax bracket. Anyone who is working full time is actually a taxpayer who falls within that tax bracket. So the people we want to help are the ones whose last dollar of income falls within that 21c tax bracket. It was this group of people who were in the 21c tax bracket that was disgracefully treated by the last Labour Government. A lot of the people in that tax bracket who in 2000 were paying $1 in $5 found when the Labour Government came along that for every extra dollar they earned $1 in $3—not $1 in $5 as it was in 2000—went to the Government. From that point on it was $1 in $3. Quite a lot of people found that they had to pay up to an extra $30 a week because the Labour Government did not want to help these low-income people. It did not want to help so it held the tax bracket where it was. If it had been inflation-proofed it would have gone to $50000.
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:222] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:651;Page:213] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 29 be agreed to. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Clause 29 agreed to.
Guy Nathan: Maiden Statements 
Guy Nathan: Maiden Statements 
[Volume:651;Page:211] 
NATHAN GUY (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I seek the leave of the House to allow the next speaker his full allocated time for his maiden statement which will mean he will encroach into the dinner hour. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is no objection.
Parker David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Parker David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:184] 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I rise to take a brief call on this particular section of the Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill as well. As has been said by the previous speaker this section of the bill sets the tax rates for the forthcoming years at the rates that have been set out earlier in the bill. In other words this entrenches for the future a decrease in taxes that is weighted to those who already earn the most and a tax increase for those on lower incomes. It is exactly the opposite of what Maori Party members say that they stand for given that Maori are disproportionately among those who are low earners. Their already low socio-economic status will be hurt by the provisions in this bill that will entrench tax cuts for those who are better off and tax increases for lower-income earners. 
This also entrenches the somewhat inconsistent position taken in the legislation compared with the National Party rhetoric in prior years. Over prior years they have continually said that the price point or the income point at which the highest tax rate kicks in should be raised. The Labour Government legislated for an increase to $80000 above which the higher tax rate kicked in. This new tax rate kicks in the highest tax rate at $70000. This seems to me to be yet another broken promise by the National Party compared with the rhetoric of yesteryear on what is but day two. 
Here we have a National Government doing exactly what the Labour Party predicted it would do; that is prefer the interests of those who are already well off over those who are less well off. Far from being the friendly face from being all things to all people as National members tried to present themselves over the last period prior to the election they are already being exposed as preferring the interests of those who are better off over those who are less well off. It seems unimaginable at a time when we have rising unemployment as that means that there will be more people on low incomes as they are reliant on part-time rather than full-time work. They will fall within the low-income bands rather than the high-income bands. Against that reality that we know is real at least for a short period in New Zealand given international events those members are proffering a tax package that reduces the tax entitlements of people who are on lower incomes and prefers those who are on higher incomes. It is funded of course by the research and development tax credit cuts that were spoken of recently and also by the gutting of KiwiSaver. So we have fewer jobs in the economy and those on shorter hours of work as a consequence with lower incomes will be among those who suffer the tax consequences of a lower taxable income. It is a matter of some concern for me that the first act of National Party members is to visit the cost of their unwise tax cuts upon those least able to afford the loss of income that will accrue.
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Cullen Michael: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:181] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 The member is probably not aware that this is a new provision in the Standing Orders. It actually came in with the changes made just before the election as a result of Standing Orders Committee deliberation. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I hope that is clear. I think members ought to be cognisant of the fact that the debate should pertain particularly to the tax rates for the 2009-10 year. That is what the debate is about. It is not a wide-ranging debate. 
Hon Judith Collins 
: It is a wide-ranging debate. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Well it is wide ranging but it is about taxation issues. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: It should be about the rates of tax. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Yes exactly. Do we all understand?
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:181] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am seeking clarification. Are you saying that clause 29 is to be taken as a separate debatable motion? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Yes.
Roy Eric: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Roy Eric: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:181] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: We come now to Part 3. This part sets the rates of income tax for the 2009-10 year—that is clause 29 does. Standing Order 333 requires the Committee to take such a provision as a separately debatable question unless the Committee by leave decides to do otherwise. As clause 29 sets the annual rates of income tax we will take it first before the other provisions of Part 3. It is in fact the first clause in Part 3. The question is that clause 29 stand part.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:181] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 2 be agreed to. 
Ayes 67 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1; United Future 1. 
Part 2 agreed to.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:181] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to.
Bennett David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Bennett David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:180] 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question that the question be now put. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Before I announce the result of the vote I just remind members that votes are to be taken in silence for two reasons. The first is that it is hard for the Clerk at the Table to hear at times if he or she is computing and secondly no member in this Chamber will vote under the duress of having other people speaking for whatever reason when he or she is voting. So I just remind members and say there will be no tolerance about breaches of that rule.
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:179] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:162] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That Part 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Part 1 agreed to.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:162] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to.
Guy Nathan: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
Guy Nathan: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:162] 
NATHAN GUY (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Brownlee Gerry: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Brownlee Gerry: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:161] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I think that is a legitimate concern and I will make every effort to ensure that those bills are available as the afternoon progresses.
Cullen Michael: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Cullen Michael: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:161] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Before we resume can I raise again the issue of the absence from the Table of the House of those bills for which urgency has been taken. There is now some public concern as well as concern from members of the House.
Pillay Lynne: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Pillay Lynne: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:160] 
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour) 
: 
 Thank you Mr Chair for recognising the importance of debating this horrible Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill. I think that this bill should be renamed the “Personal Interest Tax Cut Bill”. It is for the personal interest of the National Party and its wealthy supporters who will benefit the most from this bill. It is the redistribution of wealth from the poor the working families and the modest-income earners in New Zealand to the wealthy. It is from a party that campaigned on a brighter future. 
Sitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. 
Debate interrupted.
Hayes John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Hayes John: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:160] 
JOHN HAYES (National—Wairarapa) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:159] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am the sole arbiter of the time allowed for the debate. I call the Hon Ruth Dyson.
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:159] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We have had 19 speeches on this part of the bill today. That is a significant number of speeches.
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:159] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The Hon Ruth Dyson.
Hutchison Paul: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Hutchison Paul: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:159] 
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Hunua) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Foss Craig: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Foss Craig: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:158] 
CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Roy Eric: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Roy Eric: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:157] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: No the member is out of order.
Bennett David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Bennett David: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:157] 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 It is with great consideration that I move that the question be now put.
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:156] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
.
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Vote: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:138] 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill be now read a second time. 
Ayes 68 
New Zealand National 57; Maori Party 5; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 52 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Progressive 1. 
Bill read a second time.
Cosgrove Clayton: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Cosgrove Clayton: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:131] 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I seek leave to table a report in the  
Waikato Times 
 of 28 October in which one Mr David Bennett stated: “I don’t think that our”—that is the National Party’s—“(R & D) policy is as good as it could be but we need to invest in our infrastructure to boost the economy.” 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Leave has been sought to table that document. Is there any objection?
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:125] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I want to indicate to ACT that if that is the case then there is not a clear ruling and that we would deny leave for that request. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: We do not need to ask for leave. There is no precedent being set. I shall seek further advice if members will wait for just one moment. Yes I can confirm that allowing a new member to speak now does not curtail his or her opportunity to make a maiden speech of 15 minutes during the Address in Reply debate.
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:125] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I would go one step further than Rodney Hide has gone. It is not a precedent because it is not new in my understanding. But to answer the question the junior Government whip asked I say that it is clear that other new members will also be able to speak in the first readings of bills the Committee stages and the second and third readings and not lose their maiden status.
Hide Rodney: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Hide Rodney: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
Hon RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 The point is that it is not a precedent. The point that Mr Mallard and I are making is that it is perfectly within an MP’s right to stand up and take a call to speak in Parliament and then when we go back into the Address in Reply debate to give his or her maiden speech. The Deputy Speaker is not making a precedent with this ruling; the precedent would be to say that new MPs cannot speak under urgency unless they forgo making their maiden speeches. This is not a precedent ruling; it is simply the Standing Orders.
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tremain Chris: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
CHRIS TREMAIN (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have a question: if this speech is allowed to occur what precedent does that set for the rest of the debate on the items in the urgency motion in terms of allowing new members to take calls in the Committee stage and other stages of debate? I need to have that question answered first.
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think I would prefer you to go further than that to start with and to rule that the speech he shall give is not a maiden speech because it is not part of the Address in Reply debate. I think we should not have to seek leave to deviate from a ruling that appears to be wrong. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Thank you. I will seek some advice from the Clerk. I am prepared to allow John Boscawen to take the call. I make it clear that his speech is not his maiden speech. He will speak for 10 minutes with a warning bell at 8 minutes.
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Thank you Mr Mallard. The Standing Orders allow maiden speeches to be made during the Address in Reply debate—that is Standing Order 350—and provide for additional time to be made available for members to make maiden statements. The Address in Reply debate takes precedence over other business and therefore in normal circumstances new members would make their maiden speeches before speaking in any other debate. One of the consequences of our adjourning the Address in Reply debate is that the opportunity for maiden speeches has been delayed. I take on board the point that Mr Mallard just made and I am prepared to allow the member John Boscawen to seek leave to speak if that is the wish of the House.
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 It might seem somewhat unusual for me to come to the aid of Mr Hide but I think the position that he has outlined is correct. There is an expectation that maiden speeches are made as part of the Address in Reply debate. That does not necessarily have to be the case but as far as the Standing Orders are concerned and given the times available and the approach we are taking there is certainly that expectation. I am going a long way back in my memory but I have vague memories of members back in the 1980s speaking on Committee stages of bills or in fact on estimates before they made their maiden speeches. They certainly asked questions before they made their maiden speeches. So the idea that people cannot get on their feet before their maiden speech or that by getting on their feet they lose their right to a maiden speech I think is incorrect. Mr Deputy Speaker if it would help you I indicate that the Labour Opposition would not object to a leave-type arrangement in order to protect you but I think your ruling was wrong.
Hide Rodney: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Hide Rodney: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:124] 
Hon RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have looked through the Standing Orders and the Speakers’ rulings and I can find no rule that precludes a new MP from speaking under urgency because if he or she did so then he or she would have to forgo his or her maiden speech. The ACT Party agreed to the Address in Reply debate being broken into to do this urgency on the basis that we would be able to contribute to the debate. Mr Deputy Speaker what you have done I think is make a new ruling—which is your right as Deputy Speaker—which essentially precludes the ACT Party from contributing to this important debate. I have two MPs here who are willing and ready to contribute and I would like you either to point out to me the Standing Order or Speaker’s ruling that says that if John Boscawen or David Garrett speaks under urgency he therefore cannot give a maiden speech in the Address in Reply debate when Parliament resumes it or to tell the House that you are making a new ruling.
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
Tisch Lindsay: Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill — Second Reading In Committee 
[Volume:651;Page:121] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: The House is resumed. 
John Boscawen 
: Mr Speaker— 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Is the member seeking the call? 
John Boscawen 
: Yes. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: You have not given your maiden speech. If you were to speak now it would be deemed to be your maiden speech. 
John Boscawen 
: Yes it is. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Yes it is? I take it that the member is seeking the call. If the member speaks now his speech will be regarded as his maiden speech. He will not get another chance to make a maiden speech if he speaks now. 
John Boscawen 
: I pass the call then.
Tisch Lindsay: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Tisch Lindsay: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:121] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I understand the point you raise. There is however no requirement for a bill to be tabled prior to its introduction but it must be tabled at the time of its introduction.
Hughes Darren: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Hughes Darren: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:121] 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I know you said that under urgency the situation is a little less clear than what it would normally be. In the normal course of events a bill is introduced and it sits on the Table for 3 days before it is available for a first reading thereby giving everybody the chance to read it before the debate. Urgency does change those rules slightly and you have informed the House of that. But I wonder whether the junior Government whip could give the House an indication as to when members of Parliament might have the chance to look over legislation that we are soon to be debating. We had an understanding from the Government that it will make that information available but nothing seems to be happening. We need to get some sense of clarity on that because we— 
Hon Annette King 
: He’s on the phone. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I see he is on the phone now. He may well be on the phone to the Leader of the House to get that information. But it has now been quite some time since the House took urgency and in terms of decency and fairness we need the chance to be able to read bills that will be coming up for debate directly after this one. It is just not right to be doing things in this way.
Tisch Lindsay: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Tisch Lindsay: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:121] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I have sought advice. Standing Order 263 sets out the general rule but it does not deal specifically with bills introduced under urgency. There is no requirement to table a bill prior to its introduction but bills must be tabled at their introduction.
Hughes Darren: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Hughes Darren: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:120] 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Over three-quarters of an hour ago the Opposition raised with you the point that subsequent bills in the urgency motion were not on the Table of the House and the Opposition was not being given the opportunity to read the bills before we were due to debate them. You undertook to get that situation resolved for us Mr Deputy Speaker but I see that the bills are still not present for us to look at. We have some substantial pieces of legislation coming before us that we have not had a chance to read before the debate on them. I would like to know what progress you have made since you undertook to do that for the House.
Cullen Michael: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Cullen Michael: Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:109] 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I draw your attention to the fact that although the Government has taken urgency on a number of bills only the Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill is on the Table at this stage. You may recall Mr Deputy Speaker that when urgency was taken under the previous Government the bills for which any urgency had been taken were made available on the Table as soon as they had been printed. I listened this morning to an interview with the Minister of Labour Kate Wilkinson who made it clear that the details of the Employment Relations Amendment Bill had been finalised so I presume that it has been printed. I believe it is good practice for the Government to get those bills on the Table as soon as they are possibly available so that members of the House can actually be informed of those details before debate is entered into. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Thank you Dr Cullen. We will look into that for you.
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:161] 
Points of Order 
Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Before we resume can I raise again the issue of the absence from the Table of the House of those bills for which urgency has been taken. There is now some public concern as well as concern from members of the House. 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I think that is a legitimate concern and I will make every effort to ensure that those bills are available as the afternoon progresses.
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:120] 
Points of Order 
Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Over three-quarters of an hour ago the Opposition raised with you the point that subsequent bills in the urgency motion were not on the Table of the House and the Opposition was not being given the opportunity to read the bills before we were due to debate them. You undertook to get that situation resolved for us Mr Deputy Speaker but I see that the bills are still not present for us to look at. We have some substantial pieces of legislation coming before us that we have not had a chance to read before the debate on them. I would like to know what progress you have made since you undertook to do that for the House. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I have sought advice. Standing Order 263 sets out the general rule but it does not deal specifically with bills introduced under urgency. There is no requirement to table a bill prior to its introduction but bills must be tabled at their introduction. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I know you said that under urgency the situation is a little less clear than what it would normally be. In the normal course of events a bill is introduced and it sits on the Table for 3 days before it is available for a first reading thereby giving everybody the chance to read it before the debate. Urgency does change those rules slightly and you have informed the House of that. But I wonder whether the junior Government whip could give the House an indication as to when members of Parliament might have the chance to look over legislation that we are soon to be debating. We had an understanding from the Government that it will make that information available but nothing seems to be happening. We need to get some sense of clarity on that because we— 
Hon Annette King 
: He’s on the phone. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I see he is on the phone now. He may well be on the phone to the Leader of the House to get that information. But it has now been quite some time since the House took urgency and in terms of decency and fairness we need the chance to be able to read bills that will be coming up for debate directly after this one. It is just not right to be doing things in this way. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I understand the point you raise. There is however no requirement for a bill to be tabled prior to its introduction but it must be tabled at the time of its introduction.
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Points of Order — Bills—Availability in Urgency 
[Volume:651;Page:109] 
Tuesday 9 December 2008 
( 
continued on Wednesday 10 December 2008 
) 
Points of Order 
Bills—Availability in Urgency 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I draw your attention to the fact that although the Government has taken urgency on a number of bills only the Taxation (Urgent Measures and Annual Rates) Bill is on the Table at this stage. You may recall Mr Deputy Speaker that when urgency was taken under the previous Government the bills for which any urgency had been taken were made available on the Table as soon as they had been printed. I listened this morning to an interview with the Minister of Labour Kate Wilkinson who made it clear that the details of the Employment Relations Amendment Bill had been finalised so I presume that it has been printed. I believe it is good practice for the Government to get those bills on the Table as soon as they are possibly available so that members of the House can actually be informed of those details before debate is entered into. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Thank you Dr Cullen. We will look into that for you.
Tolley Anne: Disputes Tribunals Amendment Bill — First Reading 
Tolley Anne: Disputes Tribunals Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Volume:653;Page:2317] 
Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister of Education) 
 on behalf of the  
Minister of Justice 
: I move  
That the Disputes Tribunals Amendment Bill be referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee 
 for consideration that the committee report finally to the House on or before 31 May 2009 and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during questions for oral answer during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House despite Standing Orders 187 and 190(1)(b) and (c). 
Motion agreed to.
Mallard Trevor: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Mallard Trevor: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:653;Page:2297] 
3. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
 to the  
Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee 
: Did he agree before the meeting of 12 March 2009 that the Minister for ACC would appear instead of John Judge at that meeting on the financial review of ACC for the 2007-08 year; if so with whom did he agree? 
DAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee) 
: 
 I agreed with the Minister that he would appear at the meeting of 12 March but not necessarily instead of the chair as I had not asked Mr Judge to attend. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Why did Dr Nick Smith indicate to this House that he was appearing instead of John Judge with that member’s agreement? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not see how that can be in order because— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I will try again if you like Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will allow the member one further supplementary question as I have ruled that one out of order. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: How can he reconcile that answer with the answer given by Dr Nick Smith to the House that the chairperson and Dr Nick Smith agreed that Dr Smith would appear instead of Mr Judge? 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think I can anticipate the member’s point of order because although I accept the change in construction of the question the chair of the committee is not responsible for reconciling anything. He might have agreed with what some other member including the Minister might have said in this House. He cannot be responsible for that as chair of the committee. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that raises an interesting point because it seems to me we will now end up in a position to argue that we cannot ask Mr Bennett to reconcile his statement with Dr Nick Smith’s statement because he is not responsible for Dr Smith’s statement; and we will not be able to ask Dr Smith to reconcile his statement with Mr Bennett’s statement because he is not responsible for Mr Bennett’s statement. In other words any two members of the Government can say different things but we cannot ask either of them how they reconcile them. I think that puts the Opposition in a rather difficult position to put it mildly. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am sure it is not beyond the wit of Opposition members though to work out ways of elucidating those matters if they wish to do so. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: In response to that point of order I say simply that Dr Cullen will remember the very awkward time during the early part of 2002 when many parts of the Government of the day claimed they were not responsible for each other. We went through days and days of it in this House. There were rulings from the then Speaker that ridiculous as it may seem make that perfectly the case in this House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: And that brings to a close questions for oral answer for today.
Mallard Trevor: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Mallard Trevor: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:653;Page:2295] 
1. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
 to the  
Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee 
: Did any staff member acting at the direction of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee invite John Judge to attend the financial review of the ACC for the 2000-08 year? 
DAVID BENNETT (Chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee): 
 My understanding is that no staff member under my direction invited Mr Judge to attend the meeting of 12 March. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Hon Trevor Mallard. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: You will recognise this question; I will ask it again. Did any staff member acting for the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee invite John Judge to attend the financial review of the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) for the 2007-08 financial year? 
DAVID BENNETT 
: As I said I have no understanding of any member of the staff inviting Mr Judge to attend the meeting of 12 March. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is a question that was set down on notice as it was yesterday. It is relatively easy for the chair to consult with the select committee staff— 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Two. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: —there are only two staff—to ask whether they invited Mr Judge. He appears not to have done it despite more than 24 hours’ notice. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I first point out that there was a word left out of the question asked by the honourable member which could be relevant. But in essence the chairman of the select committee has twice given him an answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The actual question that the Hon Trevor Mallard just asked was a supplementary question so he cannot have left a word out of it. In fact the supplementary question was slightly different from the question for which notice was given. I invite the honourable member to repeat his supplementary question so the House can hear the answer to it. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Did any staff member acting for the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee invite John Judge to attend the financial review of ACC for the 2007-08 year? 
DAVID BENNETT 
: I am not aware of any staff member under my direction or the direction of the committee inviting Mr Judge to the meeting of 12 March. Mr Judge will be attending the meeting tomorrow and the select committee has agreed upon his attendance then. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Supplementary question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have already allowed the member Trevor Mallard a couple of supplementary questions. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I still haven’t had an answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think we did get an answer because the member told the House that as far as he was aware the answer was no. I invite the honourable member to go on to question No. 2.
Ardern Shane: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Ardern Shane: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:653;Page:2293] 
11.  
SHANE ARDERN (National—Taranaki - King Country) 
 to the  
Minister of Agriculture 
: What initiatives is the Government undertaking in the primary sector to address the challenges posed by food miles and carbon footprinting? 
Hon DAVID CARTER (Minister of Agriculture) 
: 
 Considerable Government work is under way to address the growing international demand for carbon footprinting for our primary products. At the heart of this is the New Zealand Greenhouse Gas Footprinting Strategy that takes a partnership approach to assist our primary sector to respond to increasing attention on the environmental impacts of production and consumption. It focuses on building capability domestically to measure and manage environmental performance as well as driving efficiency right across the supply chain. 
Shane Ardern 
: What progress has there been on the New Zealand Greenhouse Gas Footprinting Strategy? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: A lot. In coming weeks both the kiwifruit and dairy sectors will announce the results of their studies into measuring the emission footprints of their products. This is a world first. I expect similar announcements through the year in relation to forestry wine lamb beef pipfruit and many other primary products. Additionally I will soon be announcing which university has successfully tendered for the inaugural Government-funded professorship in life cycle management in agriculture and forestry. 
Shane Ardern 
: What do these developments mean for New Zealand? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: They demonstrate to our trading partners and overseas consumers New Zealand’s absolute commitment to measuring managing and verifying our primary sector’s environmental performance.