Tuiono Teanau; Webb Duncan; Andersen GinnyNew clause 3A CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): We now come to new clause 3A. This is a debate on the Hon Dr Duncan Webb's tabled amendment inserting new clause 3A replacing the definition of legal services". The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb's tabled amendment inserting new clause 3A be agreed to.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this although I will just note that I'm surprised that my commencement amendment order was ruled out. I thought I drafted that very carefully. I clearly need to lean on the Clerks a bit more!Hon Paul Goldsmith: You'll have to work harder.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Oh I will Mr Goldsmith I will. In terms of this tabled amendment look I just want to make sure that the Minister's objective is achieved because he seems to be saying "No legal aid money for sentencing reports." But as I said earlier in the House lawyers will now be completing these reports. What a professional person was doing for $1200 probably at $80 an hour lawyers will now start doing for—you know legal aid rates are pretty abysmal but for $120 an hour because it's part of the work of a lawyer to advocate at sentencing to gather the evidence and to present it in as compelling way as they can.Now if the Minister doesn't want that to happen then he's going to need this proposed clause 3A which says that lawyers aren't to do that work. Now this is really about me saying that if you're going to do this amendment get it right because that's what's needed here.So ultimately what do you want Minister? Do you want the lawyers to do this work? Do you want them to spend hours at the highest rate doing this work or do you want these reports not to be put before the judge for poor people at all? Because that's certainly the narrative that I've heard from you. So I'd invite you to consider this amendment and respond whether your policy is achieved by lawyers doing the work rather than experts or by the work not being done at all.Hon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour): Thank you very much Mr Chair. I'd just like an opportunity to speak to the proposed amendment and I'd like to commend my colleague on taking some initiative to strengthen the bill—a very short bill really. So having a clearer description of legal services and also what's covered in there would actually make it a lot clearer for those who are able to access these services.It's really important that people understand what they are entitled to in terms of access to justice. I think that on this side of the Chamber you know there is a real concern that there has not been adequate consideration given to the reduction of available legal services that this bill inevitably will create.So what we really need to be clear on—and the Minister is able to speak to this—is that this bill effectively removes legal aid funding for a report or a statement whether it be oral or written for a person and that section stops that information from being heard from not just someone who's an expert but also potentially from family whānau or community that might help that further offending.So we really want to see a clearer definition in that space and the proposed amendment provides some very clear language in that space that enables you to spell that out. Also it spells it out in relation to anything other than legal aid including legal advice and representation and that type of assistance that would enable people to be able to have some confidence when going through the judicial system that they have that expert advice and have been given a way of understanding what can be for some a really confusing foreign and quite a difficult process to go through whether victim or offender. So in terms of making access to justice paramount in terms of removing barriers to people accessing justice I'd be really interested to hear the Minister's views on including this new clause 3A within the Legal Services Amendment Bill."