Turner Judy: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Turner Judy: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:612;Page:9301] 
2.  
JUDY TURNER (United Future) 
 to the  
Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF) 
: Does she stand by her initial response to written question No. 9993 that contact between the Cremen-Burrows family and the Department of Child Youth and Family Services “has been largely historic and was with various members of the family and extended family” and her initial response to written question No. 9723 that “None of the previous contact has been related to the care and protection of Coral or her brother Storm.”; if not why not? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)) 
: 
 No. Neither of my written responses to those questions was correct and they have subsequently been corrected. Since lodging the answers originally I understand that Mr Burrows made a further contact with the Department of Child Youth and Family Services on 21 January this year. His call was received but was not classified by the recipient of the call as a notification. A notification is a phone call to the department’s call centre that requires further investigation. As a result of information about that call an independent investigation has now been announced into whether the department’s system for recording telephone calls is adequate whether Mr Burrows’ call was dealt with appropriately and how any issues arising can be addressed in the future. The findings of this inquiry will be made public. 
Judy Turner 
: Why were details such as the 21-minute telephone call to the department on 21 January by Coral’s father only disclosed in the Minister’s follow-up answer to a written question and does the department always need an entire month to locate the records of important and lengthy telephone calls? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Part of the terms of reference of the independent investigation will cover the very questions the member has asked in her supplementary question. The originating call was not recorded because it was not considered to require further investigation so it is not on a database. One of the questions the investigation will cover is whether the non-logging of calls that are not then escalated to an investigation is appropriate. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What steps have been taken to assure the public that they can have confidence in the department’s ability to provide care and protection for our children and young people? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I have welcomed the chief executive of the Department of Child Youth and Family Services’ announcement of the independent investigation for precisely that reason—so that the public can have confidence in the department’s ability to provide care and protection for our children and young people. 
Katherine Rich 
: How does the Minister reconcile her comment that the call was not recorded as a notification with one made by the Department of Child Youth and Family Services spokeswoman that “any concerns”—not some concerns—“reported to the centre about the well-being of children are treated as notifications then recorded and investigated”? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The social worker who receives the call at the call centre makes a professional judgment about whether the concerns raised require further investigation. In the case of Mr Burrows’ call that professional judgment was that no further investigation was required. 
Katherine Rich 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question asked how the Minister reconciled her comments with the Department of Child Youth and Family Services spokeswoman’s specific comment that any call to the department was treated as a notification—not some calls but any call. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the Minister did address that part of the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: How is it possible that a 21-minute call that dealt with a man called Williams who has 91 convictions for violent assault and all manner of mayhem which have been brought to the attention of the department did not graduate to being a notification of the matter; what sort of a department is she running when that matter is put aside as being of no importance whatsoever? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I am not aware of the content of the phone call or whether any assault or particular allegations were made about the man who is subsequently facing the charge of murdering Coral Burrows. That is part of what the investigation will determine. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: In light of the overwhelming failure of the Department of Child Youth and Family Services in this tragic case and the attempted cover-up will the Minister support a select committee inquiry into the operation of this department which under her Government’s stewardship has had a record 17.5 percent turnover of social work staff and a record 89 percent increase in open cases to 24895 and if she will not support that sort of inquiry why not? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In my view the credibility of the independent investigation into the specifics of this call how it was handled and whether our process for recording calls and logging notifications within the department is satisfactory will bring us all as parliamentarians the information we require to assess what future changes might need to be made. At the invitation of the select committee I would be very happy to discuss this issue after the findings of the inquiry have been made public. 
Sue Bradford 
: Is the Minister taking any steps prior to the reporting back of the investigation to ensure that Department of Child Youth and Family Services staff who take calls have both enough life experience and sufficient professional training to be able to detect—to at least some degree of accuracy—which callers are likely to be genuine and when the subject of the call is serious? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: As the member will know we have taken considerable steps over the last few years to ensure the increased professionalism of social workers including the recent introduction of the registration process. That on its own will not produce the results the member wants but it is a significant contribution towards that. Any other findings that are discovered by the independent investigation will be made public and acted upon. 
Judy Turner 
: Can the Minister explain why an inquiry into whether Mr Burrows’ telephone call was dealt with appropriately and into whether the department’s system for recording and actioning telephone calls is effective is required considering that an evaluation of the department’s call centre was commissioned in 2001 or were the results of the previous evaluation never implemented properly? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Yes that is the case. A previous investigation into the operations of the call centre was made. Obviously it has not uncovered all the issues. This is one that was not picked up adequately during that review and that is why we are having an independent investigation. 
Katherine Rich 
: Can the Minister explain how a tearful father can ring the Department of Child Youth and Family Services talk about concerns for his kids’ safety and about their behavioural problems talk about heartbreaking things like a little girl soiling herself due to distress talk for 21 minutes without one note being made and that not be deemed a notification? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: It is not clear at this stage that no notes were taken of the call. It will be up to the independent investigation to determine the appropriateness of the notification. I think it would be quite irresponsible of me to determine whether that case was dealt with appropriately upon the call because I have heard only one side of the conversation. 
Judy Turner 
: Does the Minister agree that an inquiry such as the one regarding the Burrows case was inevitable and will continue to be inevitable while the Department of Child Youth and Family Services continues to operate under the pressure of mounting systemic problems such as gross underfunding high staff turnover problems with retaining experienced staff and difficulties with providing a timely response to cases until they are of extreme urgency? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: One of the reasons that the Government agreed to undertake a first-principles baseline review when asked by the department in December last year was to look at those very issues. When the department was originally set up by the National Party immediately prior to the 1999 election it was significantly underfunded and clearly lacked the infrastructure it needed to bring two major departments together and deliver adequately and—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is enough interjecting on this question. I want the answer finished. 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In my view the findings of the baseline review reflect that original neglect and I am delighted that our Government has now the opportunity to finally put it right. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I hope the House is not going to operate according to rules that state that answers to questions can include the implication that the National Party is to blame for Coral Burrows’ death and that the Minister has no responsibility for her own department. Of course that will be greeted with interjections because it is objectionable. This Minister answers questions here precisely because she has the portfolio responsibilities—as she has had for over 4 years. To then create disorder by accusing the Opposition of being responsible for the bad behaviour of her department will lead to interjections. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Of course it did and it led to a lot of interjections. I let a lot of interjections pass before I intervened. I let the interjections grow to a point where I then judged that I could not hear the answer and that is when I stepped in. I certainly allowed plenty of interjections. 
Katherine Rich 
: Is the Minister now telling the House that there could be notes of the conversation as a result of the call; if that is the case why did Child Youth and Family Services deny all knowledge of any call whatsoever when Ron Burrows first made his allegation? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: My understanding is that yes notes could have been recorded as a result of that call but that has not been finally confirmed. My further understanding is that the department said that there had been no notification which means the process of the call being escalated to the point where it requires investigation. That was part of the personal apology from the chief executive of Child Youth and Family Services to Mr Burrows.