Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeNorman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 05 December 2013. Volume:695;Page:15289. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]4.Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) to theMinister of Finance: Is he confident that more than 85 percent of Meridian Energy remains owned by New Zealanders?Hon TONY RYALL (Minister for State Owned Enterprises) on behalf of theMinister of Finance: The Government’s successful float of Meridian Energy resulted in New Zealand ownership of 86.5 percent exceeding the Government’s target. I have had no updates since then but I am aware that the New Zealand shareholding in Mighty River Power has actually increased and there is no reason to think that the same will not happen with Meridian Energy.Dr Russel Norman: Is he aware that one overseas investment bank BNY Mellon bought 5 percent of Meridian Energy in the days following its float on the stock market and is it not likely that that single overseas buyer has taken New Zealand ownership below his 85 percent limit?Hon TONY RYALL: I do not have the specifics on who that company bought its shares from but I have received some advice that as far as Meridian Energy can tell it believes that that purchaser was purchasing shares from offshore investors.Dr Russel Norman: Given that the Minister is not exactly sure where the shares have come from is it not a fact that by taking ownership of an extra 5 percent of Meridian Energy BNY Mellon may well have reduced New Zealand ownership to as low as 81 percent well below his 85 percent limit?Hon TONY RYALL: No.Dr Russel Norman: Did the Minister not know all along that once the shares in Meridian Energy were sold they would quickly start to fall into foreign ownership just as happened with Contact Energy and that the 85 percent New Zealand ownership limit that he talked about at great length was simply spin a bit like the mums and dads spin he talked about?Hon TONY RYALL: No. I have already indicated to the member that information has been made available to the Minister that makes it clear that the New Zealand shareholding in Mighty River Power has increased since it was floated. We know that in another mixed-ownership model - type company the Port of Tauranga Ltd it is the New Zealanders buying out the overseas interests. The only question I would ask is whether the member is suggesting that he himself is buying Meridian Energy shares. Then I suppose foreign ownership would be increasing.Dr Russel Norman: A bit more immigrant bashing from the Minister—wonderful.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I would say that the score is about one all.Dr Russel Norman: Is he comfortable with the fact that at its current level of investment BNY Mellon will receive $18 million in dividends from Meridian Energy next year paid for by the power bills of New Zealand families?Hon TONY RYALL: I am comfortable that those people who have bought shares in Meridian Energy are entitled to receive the dividends they will qualify for. It would be interesting if the Greens were promising not to allow those people to receive their dividends and we are still awaiting Mr Norman’s pledge to buy back the shares. He was rather all over the place this morning on the radio I thought.Dr Russel Norman: Does the Minister accept that it is difficult for the Greens and others to promise to buy back the shares because the Government has completely crashed the books by borrowing $60 billion and when this Government borrows $60 billion and we have no idea what a catastrophe it might leave us next year that makes it difficult to make that kind of a promise?Hon TONY RYALL: Well that is a new position. Having spent most of the time for the last 2½ years saying that the books of the country go backwards through the assets sales process he is now trying to stand up and say he cannot project what is going to happen. He cannot have it both ways. If he thinks that the Government’s books go backwards because of this then he should make the pledge to buy these assets back.Dr Russel Norman: Has the Minister actually read Treasury’s Budget Policy Statement 2012-13 which shows that the deficit the operating balance excluding gains and losses—and for the Minister’s benefit that is how Treasury measures it—increases as a result of his asset sales programme? Treasury projects that it will increase by $180 million over 5 years but given the poor showing by this Government it will probably—Mr SPEAKER: Order! That is getting to be a very lengthy question.Hon TONY RYALL: Over the period the matter is relatively balanced. What the member fails to appreciate is that there is risk associated with these businesses and the fact is we have converted some of that risk into cash for New Zealand taxpayers—$4 billion that we do not need to borrow from overseas bankers. If that party opposite truly believed what he just asked in his question it would promise now to buy back those assets. It would promise to borrow that money because it would be better for New Zealand according to his logic. But I notice—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Now the answer is getting very long.