Williamson Maurice: Prostitution Reform Bill — In Committee 
Williamson Maurice: Prostitution Reform Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:609;Page:6164] 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (NZ National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I want to deal with only two basic headings in my presentation tonight because this subject goes all over the paddock when people are speaking. The two things I want to cover are under the headings of “That’s what’s going on under the current law” and “Is that what we really want for people?”. 
Firstly I have heard some impassioned speeches from the Hon Dover Samuels and just now from Edwin Perry telling us about 13-year-old girls in Papatoetoe and what is going on. I sit listening and think that something is going wrong in this regard. They oppose this bill but they are telling us about all the dreadful things that are going on now before the bill is passed. It is not this bill that is doing it. Thirteen-year-old girls are prostituting themselves under the current law. I would have thought that members would want to change that. 
Stephen Franks 
: This won’t do that! 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The member says that this bill will not do it but it will free up law and order officers to start to deal with those issues that are wrong. We think that being under-age is wrong coercion is wrong and drugs are wrong. We think all of those other things that I hear being mentioned that this legislation will supposedly allow. Well it is not. It simply is not. When I hear about the use of methamphetamine and prostitution in south Auckland I know it is going on right now. I heard the Hon Dover Samuels say that he went to Greenwoods Corner or wherever it was and saw for himself what was going on. Again I say to members that that is happening now under the law as it now stands. I am staggered that every member of Parliament—as those members speak—does not want to change what is going on now. I do not want 13-year-old girls coerced. I do not want the problem of gangs drugs and all those other practices. 
I most certainly do not want that but I do not believe that the State should play a role in a willing seller - willing buyer situation between consenting adults—where there is no coercion no force by drugs or whatever else—and make somebody a criminal because of it. I stress that prostitution has to be done in proper circumstances. We cannot have it occurring in the general public arena in front of schools and so on even if it did involve consenting adults. All of us do not want that. 
I have seen example after example of what is happening. In fact the worse example I saw happening when I was a Minister was when I was negotiating with the Prostitutes Collective to provide condoms for the safe-sex message and the police used those condoms—condoms that we as a Government had provided—as evidence of prostitution. Another example which just left me cold was in Christchurch and involved a couple of policemen posing as TV3 cameramen. They went into a massage parlour and upstairs into the little booths took off their clothes lay naked next to a young lady and when she then offered to do something they said: “You’re busted!” Where was the crime there? Do the police not have a helluva lot more issues they should be putting their time into? Yes if one of those ladies had been under age and yes if one of them were being forced by some drug baron to do it or whatever then I would agree with every member here. 
I hope that everyone will look at the amendments to ask how we can get a sensible outcome so that we can start to clear the kids from the industry and focus on getting out on the streets where people are vulnerable and being hurt. I do not want sex workers working on the streets under any circumstances but one of the crazy things about the current law is that a person caught and convicted of soliciting is then banned from working in a massage parlour—which is probably the safest place for that person to be. I do not understand that. I would have thought that we would want to get those people away to a safe place where one knows what is going on and where as long as the situation is between consenting adults everyone has some protections and rights. That is what we want. 
But I go back to my heading. All these speeches have been about what is going on now. They have been impassioned speeches; they have been quite brilliant speeches. Those speeches would have a helluva lot of merit if they were being given in say 2 years’ time and said: “That’s what Tim Barnett’s bill has caused.” But not one of them was. Every one of the speeches is about “That’s what’s going on now. That’s what you will see in Papatoetoe tonight. That’s what you will see in west Auckland tonight.”—and this bill has not yet been passed. So I ask everyone to think about doing something. 
I move to the second heading “Is that what you really want?”. We get these dreadful questions being asked of us like: “Would you want your daughter to be a prostitute?”. Of course we would not. God knows I would not want my daughter to grow up to be a politician either. I hope she never does. If she does I will still love her and forgive her and I will hope that one day she sees some sense. What I am saying is that we would not want that. I would prefer that prostitution did not exist and I hope that one day everyone is financially viable enough never to have to consider it and so on. But the reality is that there has always been prostitution in the world and there always will be even when the punishments are very severe. In some Islamic countries the punishment is being stoned to death. It still happens.  
So the idea that we will fix the problem of prostitution by making it illegal is simply nonsense. It is like the Americans in the 1920s saying: “Booze is so bad but I’ll tell you what we will do. We’ll make it illegal and that will fix the alcohol issue.” I do not think there is a single person in this House including even some of the wowsers around here who think that going to prohibition would be the right way to fix an alcohol problem. 
I want a sensible piece of legislation. Again I go back to the willing seller - willing buyer situation. If members of this House want I am very happy for them to put up whatever amendments they think will safeguard people against under-age prostitution and coercion. I know that Lianne Dalziel has some good stuff about the immigration issue. We have just heard that all the Thai workers will be flocking in here to work. Well immigration laws can be fixed to deal with that situation. Phil Goff has some stuff about local authorities having some say about the location of premises. I will support that. I am a big fan to support anything that gets all of those bits tidied. But in the end it comes down to this: do we want to make a criminal out of a person who does this or do we want to try to put in some support and help? 
I hear some of the religious people in this Chamber—and I am not one of them—go on about being Christian. I think the least Christian thing one could do is to persecute and punish somebody who is involved in prostitution. If anything if we really believed those members’ view that prostitution is so bad evil degrading and dehumanising then we should be feeling some sympathy and support for prostitutes rather than wanting to punish them prosecute them make them into criminals and so on. 
I want all members in this House to start focusing their speeches on two things: first of all what will these changes bring about and what do they want. I do not want them to keep going on about what is there now and how evil it is. What is there now is evil and that is the exact reason for passing this bill—to change the situation. As my final parting shot I have to say to the Catholic Action Group—which has again threatened me today with burning in hell for ever for eternity—that it will be a helluva lot warmer in that climate than it is out there right now because it is damn cold. I will give them the figures— 
Rodney Hide 
: There are better people down there. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: There are better people down there too—yes. All I can say is that I have done the numbers—I have a physics background. At an average of 5000 degrees Celsius—that is an estimate of what the temperature of the furnaces are; I do not know—with my body mass of 82 kilograms I would last 3.2 seconds and that is hardly eternity in my view. Their view is just nonsense. We should not even deign to listen to the sort of rubbish about the moral sin and burning in hell. 
This House has an obligation to pass sensible legislation that protects those adults who are consenting to prostitution in private and not causing trouble and then to begin the clean-up of the under-age problem the coercion the drugs the stolen property the gangs and whatever else. I hear again that if prostitution is made legal the gangs will all move into it. Prostitution in the early 1900s in the United States was totally illegal and the Mafia ran the lot. So if members think that making it illegal gets the gangs out I point out that the evidence shows the exact opposite. When it was totally illegal the Mafia and John Dillinger and all the boys ran prostitution and the numbers rackets right through Chicago and right through New York. All I can say is that that argument holds no water whatsoever. 
I ask members when they speak to try to focus please on things that will fix the current problems because they are serious ones. Let us get ourselves into an environment where we can move on where sex workers can be safe and in a safe environment and hopefully where we become financially viable as a nation to the point that people do not have to do such things.