Smith Nick; Hipkins ChrisHon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson): I want to refer to clause 21 in Part 2. It specifically is in respect to the reorganisation of Government departments in Schedule 2. Schedule 2 of the bill specifically lists the Government agencies that are going to be able to be restricted in Part 2 of this bill and specifically lists the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Health. Now myself as the member of Parliament the most important public service for my area is the delivery of health services and the delivery of education services. We have—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson): Dr Smith you will resume your seat. I have ruled on that matter. Please resume your seat. I have ruled on that matter. You are now for the fourth time directly challenging me and that is not acceptable.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I'm quoting the bill.CHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson): I realise you're quoting the bill and I know why. This is not about the tertiary education review and reforms or about the proposals in the Simpson report on district health boards. That is not referred to in Schedule 2 relating to Part 2. So if the member please resumes his contribution referring to relevant matters in Part 2.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The core issue for the Parliament in Part 2 of this bill is what is the process that Parliament expects of reorganisations of the public sector. Sometimes you require legislation so for instance in a previous sense when the Government chose to restructure district health boards or Crown health enterprises that required legislation. The key issue for the Parliament in Part 2 and clause 21 is what powers we give to the Cabinet for reorganising public sector agencies—so for instance if you wanted to take the Ministry of Health that is listed in the schedule and you wanted to divide it into Healthcare New Zealand and the Ministry of Health. The real question for the Parliament is should that require legislation or should we pass generic legislation that lets the Government make those changes without any reference to the Parliament?That is a very real issue. So my question for the Minister in the chair is that if under clause 21 where you have specific reference in Schedule 2 to the Ministry of Health and the Government wanted to proceed with a very significant restructure of the health sector and for instance provide for new organisations like Healthcare New Zealand or the like is it the Government's view that the empowerment provisions in clauses 21 and 22 would enable that to occur without any reference to Parliament?I say again: some of the most important public services that are provided for New Zealanders are in the education and health sector. The way in which they're delivered is absolutely core to this Parliament and if we are to pass legislation that allows significant restructuring of Government agencies whether they be the Ministry of Education whether they be the Ministry of Health or any other agency in Schedule 2 there is a real issue for this Parliament as to when does the elected representatives of the communities get to have a say in that.So my question to the Minister in the chair in his role of the State services Minister is: is it the intention to use the provisions of clause 21 and 22 to be able to progress the very substantive reviews and reports that have been received by the Government in those core areas will there be reference back to Parliament if those reforms are progressed with or is it the Minister's expectation that with the powers that are provided in Part 2 of this bill effectively the Government would say Well you've authorised the Executive Council the Cabinet to make these decisions and as a consequence we would be able to make those very radical changes to those core public sector agencies without reference back to Parliament."? That is actually a really important issue for New Zealand it is a really issue for the Parliament and that is why I seek an answer.I seek also an answer as to why there is no provision in this Part for any public consultation requirement.CHAIRPERSON (Hon Ruth Dyson): The member's time has expired.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of State Services): Very happy to say to the member that of course the current Government has not made any detailed decisions on the health and disability review but it is the Government's intention if re-elected at the time that we do that that we would bring forth separate legislation to the House to implement the Government's decisions in that regard."