Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeArdern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 04 June 2013. Volume:690;Page:10633. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]7.JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) to theMinister for Social Development: What advice has she received about the number of methamphetamine labs that have been found by Police to have children present and how many of these children have been subsequently removed by Child Youth and Family Services?Hon CHESTER BORROWS (Associate Minister for Social Development): on behalf of theMinister for Social Development: I can advise that as per the written response to her written question these numbers are not gathered centrally on a crime-specific basis. The interventions that are made on a house by house case by case basis are done according to a protocol signed up to by police and child safety is at the forefront of those decisions.Jacinda Ardern: Does Child Youth and Family Services have a formal protocol for children found living in homes with methamphetamine labs; if not why not and when can we expect to see one?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: Interventions that are made with the police as a result of crimes committed are conducted in respect of a protocol that was drafted in 2010. It is currently being reviewed at the moment and ongoing discussion between police and Child Youth and Family Services specifically in respect of methamphetamine labs is part of those discussions.Jacinda Ardern: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked specifically about the Child Youth and Family Services protocol. The police protocol I am aware of—it has been around since 2009—but there is no Child Youth and Family Services protocol—Mr SPEAKER: Would the member please just repeat the question. It might not have been heard correctly.Jacinda Ardern: Does Child Youth and Family Services have a formal protocol for children found living in homes with methamphetamine labs; if not why not and when can we expect to see one?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: My understanding is that there are discussions going on currently between the police and Child Youth and Family Services as to a memorandum of understanding that would form the basis of that protocol. Currently they are in discussion. The protocol that is being operated on at the moment is a generic criminal memorandum of understanding protocol that operates between the police and Child Youth and Family Services but is not crime-specific.Jacinda Ardern: How long will it take for her department to settle on a protocol to protect these children when more than 480 children have been found in meth labs already the police have had a protocol for several years and Child Youth and Family Services has said that it has been working on one for more than 12 months now?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: As I understand it there have been 384 children who were found in 199 methamphetamine labs. In the same time frame of those offences the police have referred 250000 children to Child Youth and Family Services for dealing with and for consideration of intervention not including those young children on the premises where family violence has occurred. In terms of what the time frame would be for the completion of that protocol I do not have that information in front of me except that it is urgent for the department. It is working with the police currently. That is the way that it should be bearing in mind that when we are dealing with these sorts of matters the police has one role and Child Youth and Family Services has another role.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. One could not be other than concerned to have a Minister answering questions in a way that denies Parliament information on the basis that there is some sort of protocol and then giving a figure for the number of children who are found to be present at a methamphetamine lab discovery—right? [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am trying to understand what the point of order is.Rt Hon Winston Peters: It is that he knows how many children were found when there was a meth lab discovery but he cannot say how many were removed. We are being deliberately denied knowledge essential for parliamentarians to make a decision here.Mr SPEAKER: The Minister at all times in my mind has addressed the questions adequately. He said right at the start from the first question that the information as requested was not gathered. We have moved on from that question.Jacinda Ardern: Does she think it is acceptable—Hon CHESTER BORROWS: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. To clarify in terms of the point of order made by the previous speaker Winston Peters the numbers that the member Jacinda Ardern in asking her question referred to were not referring to the same period as the numbers of children I was referring to. I was talking about the execution of search warrants the discovery of 199 methamphetamine labs and 384children found in those labs. It was not part of the same question but it did relate to the number I later gave her—250000.Mr SPEAKER: Order! And that is now becoming another answer to the question.Jacinda Ardern: Why do the police collect information on how many children are found in homes with methamphetamine labs but Child Youth and Family Services which is charged with the children’s care and protection does not collect that information?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: It is not true to say that Child Youth and Family Services does not collect that information. That information is collected on a region by region basis as matters are intervened in on a case by case basis. If that information were collected nationally it would not change the protocol it would not change the response and it would not change the outcome for those children living in that situation.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That is the precise point of my original point of order. Now we are being told that the information is available region by region. The Minister has had 3½ hours for his department to find out region by region the total number. Why is Parliament being denied this important information?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Does the member want to speak to the point of order?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: That was not the subject of the original question.Jacinda Ardern: Just for further clarification for the Speaker I asked that question on notice. I have asked it in written form before and been denied that information by the Minister.Mr SPEAKER: At the end of the time it is now for Parliament the House here and the public to judge the quality of the answers that have been given. I have become increasingly confused by the answers that have been given but that being the case the Minister started by saying that information was not available—it was not gathered in that form. He has then proceeded to give further information but maybe that was sourced from police rather than Child Youth and Family Services. So if the member wishes to ask further supplementary questions—Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am sorry but the fact is that this is a very particular specific question on notice and apparently has been asked before in writing and it is about how many of these children have been removed by Child Youth and Family Services as a result of methamphetamine lab discovery by the police. We started off with “Well you can’t have the information because that is subject to a protocol.” and then we got to “Well yes the information is available region by region.” If that is the case surely the Minister can tell us after 3½ hours of time to prepare what region by region that all adds up to.Mr SPEAKER: It is not my job here to design the answer for the Minister. The Minister started a question and at that stage the House actually accepted his answer: that such information as requested was not gathered. Subsequent supplementary questions have gleaned some information. I can do no more today with the particular answer that has been given by the honourable Minister.Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think you were right at the beginning and you were right in the first part of your—Mr SPEAKER: I thank you.Hon Members: Ha ha!Hon Trevor Mallard: Well credit when it is due.Mr SPEAKER: Would the member please come to his point of order.Hon Trevor Mallard: I am now getting to the second point and that is that in the past Speakers have advised Ministers to get their offices to use old-fashioned technology like a phone and get on the phone to the regions to get the answer.Mr SPEAKER: We are moving forward now. If there are no further supplementary questions we are going—[Interruption] Further supplementary questions?Jacinda Ardern: Does she think it is acceptable that there are reports of children being found in meth labs and being removed by Child Youth and Family Services only to be returned to caregivers who after being bailed have continued to cook meth with children in the home; if not what will she do about it?Hon CHESTER BORROWS: I am not aware of such a case specifically. If it was drawn to the Minister’s attention then she would certainly have that investigated. My understanding is that when a clan-lab has been searched and children are located they are taken into care. They may be put back they may be given to other members of the family or other caregivers may be found for them as is appropriate for that particular situation.