Samuels Dover: Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
Samuels Dover: Appropriation (Parliamentary Expenditure Validation) Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:634;Page:5849] 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS (Minister of State) 
: 
 After the great performance from the “King of Waka Jumpers” I thought I should take a short call. I am one of the members of this Parliament who do not suffer from amnesia. I remember very well the history of that member. He said that Labour stole the election. That is the garbage that comes across from members on the other side of the waka. The “King of Waka Jumpers” has just delivered the most prominent speech he has ever delivered in this Chamber. This is the garbage that comes across to us from the other side of the Chamber. 
I want to share with members what I think the New Zealand public thinks about that comment. At the end of the day they are the ones who elected this Government to Parliament. At the end of the day we went through a democratic election process— 
Phil Heatley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. With Dover Samuels berating members on this side of the Chamber and us responding to him—and I acknowledge that—I think there would be more calmness less heckling and less shouting from this side of the Chamber if Dover Samuels would simply table his cheque. I seek leave for Dover Samuels to table his $10000 cheque. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No the member will be seated. That is a frivolous point of order. It is out of order and the member is warned about that. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: It is amazing that some members of the Opposition do not want to hear the facts. The fact is that we won the election. What I am hearing from members on the other side of the Chamber is that they think the people of this country are bonkers—that they are stupid. You are talking about public integrity. It was the public of New Zealand who elected this Government to lead this country. You know what that was based on? It was based on the very clear policies put forward by the Labour Party. 
The National Party had its chance and the Labour Party had its chance but now that we have become the Government those members are crying sooky bubba. You are using all those findings and all those tactics—and do you know what you are doing? The National Party is undermining the public of this country. They were the ones who went to the ballot box. Now you are saying that the election was a stolen election—that in fact somebody stole something. So if you are saying that are you saying that the public of New Zealand are dummies? Are you saying they are stupid? That is the implication of your comments. Are you saying they are stupid? Do you think they were rorted? Do you think they are stupid? Is that what the National Party is saying? 
We went through a public election. We went through a proper democratic process. The Labour Party won we are the Government and you do not like it. So you get up in the Chamber and you throw all that rubbish across the Chamber about us being thieves— 
Hon Murray McCully 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Reluctant though I am to spring to your defence I tell you that the member who was on his feet has been using the word “you” and following that with some accusations that are colourful but not very seemly. I suggest to you that it is unseemly for him to bring the Chair into the debate in that way. I am surprised you have not pulled him up on that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Thank you Mr McCully for drawing that to my attention. I did raise that issue with Mr Samuels several times before and given the nature of this debate and my realisation of the temperature in the Chamber I have chosen to ignore Mr Samuels on that particular issue. But now that it has been drawn to my attention I ask the member to please not bring the Chair into the debate. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I will refer to the National Party as the parties with the Tories in it. 
Simon Power 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Your ruling puts the rest of us in an interesting position. Presumably it means that the standards around bringing you into the debate have now been relaxed and that during the remainder of the Committee stage and in the third reading members of this side of the Chamber will not be pulled up in the same way that the Standing Orders would otherwise have anticipated because the discretion you have extended to the Hon Dover Samuels will now be extended to other members. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No that will not be the case. The reason is that a presiding officer looks at the context that the word is used in and also at the way that a debate is going. Just because I have previously overlooked Mr Samuels’ use of that word that does not mean it will happen all the time. I appreciate the fact that the member has drawn that matter to my attention and I will listen with a great deal of interest to hear whether Mr Samuels continues to use “you” in the debate. He will be ruled out of order if he brings me into it again and so will other members. 
Simon Power 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Now we have a further variation on the ruling because you are now telling the Committee that the matter of whether an individual member can bring the presiding officer into the debate is one of context and of the nature of the debate. That just cannot be right because the Standing Orders make it very clear than under no circumstances are the Chair or the Speaker to be brought into the debate. If you are now widening that ruling to include a wider contextual element I suggest if I may that you do so in a formal way that gives a clear ruling to the rest of us as to how the standard which until this point has been very clear in the Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings is being relaxed. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No the ruling will not be relaxed Mr Power and the presiding officer is never to be brought into the debate. The reality in this place as the member well knows is that members on both the Opposition and Government sides of the Chamber often bring Chairs of Committee and Speakers into debates. Sometimes if you like because of the context and the state of order in the Chamber at the time we do not pull people up for that. If we pulled everybody up all the time we would continually be doing that. So we have to use our judgment on those matters. I appreciate what Mr Samuels said and I will certainly be very intent and listen to what he says because it is not the job of members to bring the presiding officer into the debate and the rule on that has not been changed. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I understand the point you make and I understand the need for you to exercise discretion. I simply ask for your undertaking that in exercising your discretion you will seek to be absolutely fair to members on both sides of the Chamber. It is important to us that we have that undertaking. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: You always have that undertaking when I am in the Chair Mr McCully. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: I thank Murray McCully for suggesting that I am making a colourful contribution to the debate. I thank that member for giving me credit for that. But I think we all understand that this debate has been colourful. The colour has come from both sides of the colour spectrum. It would be unfortunate if this Parliament allowed colourful debate to come from only one side of the Chamber and not the other because there have certainly been a lot of accusations. A lot of colourful adjectives have been slung from the Opposition side of the Chamber. Unfortunately those members do not like to take; they like to give. 
Paula Bennett 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I ask for some guidance from you because when my colleague the Hon Tau Henare was speaking earlier I saw you pick up the bill and wave it at him as an indication that you wanted him to speak on the part that was before the Committee. I have been listening to the Government member and I have not heard him once refer to the Committee stage that we are in nor have I heard or seen you pull him into line at all. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Thank you Ms Bennett. I will now indicate the bill to Mr Samuels. 
Hon DOVER SAMUELS 
: If that member had been listening she would have heard some of the statements made by members on her side of the Chamber. It is incumbent upon those of us who are on the Government side of the Chamber to respond to those statements and that is exactly what I am doing. Earlier in my speech I raised the fact that Mr McCully was talking about the colourful contribution that is coming from me as an MP. My response to that is to say that a number of colourful contributions have come from all sides of the Chamber. There have been some mischievous contributions and some adjectives have been used that in my view have not been complimentary to the debate.