Volume 638 Week 40 - Wednesday 28 March 2007 
Volume 638 Week 40 - Wednesday 28 March 2007 
[Volume:638;Page:8391] 
Wednesday 28 March 2007 
Madam Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Points of Order 
Parliamentary Press Gallery—Parliamentary Complex 
Hon PETER DUNNE (Leader—United Future) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I note from a media report last night that you indicated you had some sympathy for Mr Nick Wang and the concerns he had over his treatment here on Monday and that you were going to meet the Commissioner of Police to discuss protocols governing such situations. I wonder whether you could advise the House firstly whether such a meeting has taken place and if so what was the outcome; and secondly when such a meeting does take place whether you will indicate to the House what has transpired so that we can all know what the rules are for the future. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. I am writing to the Commissioner of Police to arrange a meeting and of course the House will be kept fully informed. 
KEITH LOCKE (Green) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Following on from that I have a couple of other matters to raise. I understand from your press release that you will also be writing to the Chinese Embassy to explain the protocols surrounding the conduct of this House and free speech or something along those lines. Could you clarify that? Secondly one issue of concern that has come out of looking at the tape of the incident on Monday is a question mark over who gives accreditation to press gallery journalists—whether the police have the powers to give accreditation and take it away as the police officer seemed to indicate or whether that is the function of the Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: In addressing the member’s points I shall be contacting the Chinese Ambassador merely to inform him of the process and the rules. And of course it is not the police who give accreditation to the press gallery; it is the Speaker. 
Questions to Ministers 
Minimum Wage—Proposed Changes 
1. DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Labour 
: What changes will be made to the minimum wage on 1 April this year? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Labour) 
: 
 I am very pleased to announce to the House that as of 1 April the adult minimum wage will have its biggest increase since 1999 moving from $10.25 to $11.25 per hour. The youth rate will increase from $8.20 to $9 per hour. This change will effectively give 119100 workers a pay rise next Sunday. 
Darien Fenton 
: Has the Minister seen any reports on changes to the minimum wage? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Actually I have. I have seen a report that notes that the Labour-led Government has raised the minimum wage each and every year it has been in office increasing it from $7 an hour in 1999 to $11.25 an hour this year—a total rise of $4.25 an hour or 61 percent. That result stands in stark contrast to that of the last National Government which over 9 years raised the minimum wage by less than $1. 
Peter Brown 
: Does the Minister share the New Zealand First view that economically the country is well on track to enable the Government to give assurances that the minimum wage will be increased to $12 per hour within the term of this Parliament as is stipulated in the confidence and supply agreement? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The Labour-Progressive Government has a confidence and supply agreement and an arrangement with both New Zealand First and the Green Party to have the adult minimum wage at $12 an hour by the end of this term if economic conditions permit. 
Darien Fenton 
: Has the Minister seen any reports on other changes to the minimum wage? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I have. I have a report that states: “We don’t believe it’s necessary to move the minimum wage up. That wasn’t what we did during the ’90s.” That report is from the deposed National Party spokesperson on industrial relations Wayne Mapp. But I note that the leader of the National Party has flip-flopped on that position and said he is not personally opposed to adjusting the minimum wage. Although I welcome with some healthy scepticism John Key’s mimicking of Labour’s fair approach to the minimum wage judging by National’s abysmal record of adjusting the wage— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Ministers can respond to reports but not comment on the policies. 
Smacking Ban—Prime Minister's View 
2.  
JOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she stand by her statement prior to the last election when asked whether she supported a ban on smacking: “Absolutely not. Well I think you’re trying to defy human nature.”? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes. 
John Key 
: Is it the Government’s intention to adopt Sue Bradford’s bill as Government business? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: No decision on that has been made. 
John Key 
: Why will the Prime Minister not just tell the public of New Zealand that it is her intention to adopt Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill as a Government bill and that the reason for doing so is that the Government wants to take this deeply unpopular legislation off the table as quickly as it can? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Precisely because—as I said in my answer to the first supplementary question—a decision has not been made. I suggest that the member might want to consider following some of the very sound advice from the 
 Press 
 for example which suggests that members might regard the bill as an opportunity to demonstrate their own boldness and leadership by doing what is right for society rather than what might seem politically expedient for themselves. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The member’s question was heard in silence; the answer was not. All members in the Chamber are entitled to hear both the question and answer. I remind members of that—otherwise they will be leaving the Chamber. 
John Key 
: When will the Prime Minister make the decision about whether the Government intends to adopt Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill as Government legislation and what will influence the making of that decision? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: A decision will be made in due course and all relevant factors will be taken into account. 
Hon Steve Maharey 
: Given the Prime Minister’s support for amending legislation so as to remove the defence of someone who uses excess force against a child as is currently under the Crimes Act can she give us a steer on the kind of advice she is receiving on the kinds of groups that are advocating that there should be no change to this kind of legislation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I have in front of me pages explaining the position of one such group that the National Party seems proud to be associated with— 
The Christian Foundations of the Institution of Corporal Correction 
—which states: “If the child is angry after the smack (slamming doors pouting etc.) you have not smacked hard enough”. Who wants to be identified with that sort of position? 
Sue Bradford 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm that dozens of credible individuals and organisations are supporting my bill including the Children’s Commissioner the Families Commission the Child Poverty Action Group Parents Centres the Parenting Council Presbyterian Support the New Zealand Psychological Society the National Council of Women and many others and that my bill does not create a new offence of smacking or anything else but simply removes the defence currently available to parents who inflict quite serious damage on their children? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I absolutely agree with the analysis of the bill that the member has just offered. I am proud to be associated with organisations like Barnardos Save the Children and Plunket which are very supportive of the amendment bill. Further I draw the attention of the House to the injunction of the Christchurch  
Press  
that said members should not contemplate supporting the weak-kneed compromise being promoted by Mr Borrows—a compromise I believe that National MPs are bound by caucus decision to support. 
John Key 
: Is the reason the Prime Minister will not tell the people of New Zealand today whether the Government intends to adopt Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill as a Government bill that the last time her Government gave notice of trying to sweep this off the political agenda just last week Dr Cullen said he was going to have an urgency motion and what we saw then was that Dr Cullen failed just in the same way that she will fail? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member might one day understand something about decision making and that is that one consults widely. I understand that his caucus finds his style of leadership rather less than collaborative. That will never be said over here. 
John Key 
: Does the Prime Minister realise that if she were not whipping her unwilling caucus and forcing the likes of Annette King Harry Duynhoven Dover Samuels and many others into forcing this legislation through the House the bill would not pass; does she realise that she is out of step with 83 percent of New Zealanders who do not want it to pass; and has it finally dawned on her that her Government has become so arrogant that there is only one way for it to go and that is out of office? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Not only do I not realise any such thing I wonder whether the member might consider releasing— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Order! Please be seated. It is impossible to hear through the barracking. A question was asked. An answer is to be given. We are all entitled to hear that answer. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Not only do I not realise any such thing but I note that there are good-hearted members of the National caucus who do not want to be whipped into voting for the Borrows amendment. 
Heather Roy 
: Will the Prime Minister answer my question that she failed to answer yesterday which asks what right she believes she has to override the view of the majority of New Zealanders and her own caucus in order to tell me as a mother of five how to raise my children? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Presumably the member being an ACT member also objects to being told that her children must be sent to school. 
John Key 
: If the Prime Minister thinks Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill is such a good bill and that the 83 percent of New Zealanders who have consistently opposed it are so completely wrong why will she not simply give her caucus a free vote? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Labour caucus has discussed this bill as I am sure the National caucus has. The National caucus made a decision to support the Borrows amendment. The Labour caucus made a decision to support this bill. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I ask you to consider question time because it has become unruly. Every MP gets an opportunity to ask a question. In the case of the ACT party we get one supplementary question. Heather Roy came down yesterday and asked a question of the Prime Minister. It was our one question and we sat here quietly through question time to ask our question. It is a serious question and I think it should be seriously addressed. We actually used our supplementary question again this time to put the same question. Yesterday we got some statement from the Prime Minister about what Jenny Shipley had to do when she was Prime Minister. That answer could not possibly have addressed our supplementary question. Today we asked a specific question again with our one supplementary question about section 59 and we received a throwaway flippant remark from the Prime Minister about compulsory schooling. That cannot possibly be addressing the question and I have to say that it pulls our chain a bit. We come to the Chamber respectfully asking questions respecting the Government and expecting an answer from the Prime Minister of this country—and so do the people of New Zealand who deserve better. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The Prime Minister was asked a question. She was asked for an opinion. She gave an opinion and that is one of the problems with those sorts of questions. It was a rhetorical answer. The member may not have liked it but it was an answer. The answer was given in the form that the question was asked. That is one of the difficulties I believe; when members ask for an opinion they get one. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Does the Prime Minister accept that it is the Government’s and Parliament’s duty to protect the most vulnerable members of society and in that case it is perfectly legitimate to have laws that make it quite clear that beating up kids is illegal? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Absolutely. I believe that this Parliament has a duty to defend the most vulnerable. Let us remind ourselves that in the Unicef report of 2005 New Zealand ranks third-worst out of 27 OECD countries in terms of children’s death from maltreatment. I know that that statistic does not worry the National Party; it worries me. 
Water—Tradability 
3.  
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
 to the  
Minister for the Environment 
: Ki a ia nei he taonga hoko te wai; menaehara he aha ai hoki? 
[ 
Does he believe that water is a tradable commodity; if not why not? 
] 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 Let me reiterate the words of my colleague the Associate Minister in the House last week that “water is a public resource that the Government and local authorities will continue to manage on behalf of all New Zealanders.” I can further advise the member that the management of water in New Zealand is based on consents not on property rights. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Has the Minister read the article in the  
Dominion Post 
 
“Call for market in water” in which Simon Carlaw Chief Executive of the New Zealand Water and Wastes Association proposes law changes to facilitate water trading and is this what is intended in the proposed “cap and trade” strategies outlined in the Sustainable Water Programme of Action Cabinet paper; if not what is? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: No but it will not surprise the member to know that this Government and I do not generally agree with the policies of the Business Roundtable or its acolytes. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Can the Minister confirm as he said in his original answer that it is the Government’s policy and intention that the water resource will be administered fairly and without discrimination by the Crown and by local government on behalf of all New Zealanders? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I cannot be clearer than to repeat the answer I gave in reply to the primary question. The Government regards the water resource as a resource that local authorities and Government will continue to manage on behalf of all New Zealanders. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Is the Minister aware of the statement from Te Runanga o NgaiTahu chairman Mark Solomon that NgaiTahu were frustrated that they were not consulted in the drafting of the Government’s Sustainable Water Programme of Action; and what is the reason for denying NgaiTahu when they applied to participate in the consultation process? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Yes I am aware of that statement and I must say that it puzzled me somewhat given the extensive involvement and engagement with Maori that has taken place on these issues as far back as July 2003 and also the fact that as the member will doubtless be aware the ministerial advisory group that advises Mr Anderton and myself on this matter includes Edward Ellison from NgaiTahu and George Asher from NgatiTuwharetoa. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: What progress has the Minister achieved in addressing the two goals that emerged from the iwi chief executives’ forum held on 21 November 2006—namely the importance to iwi of kaitiakitanga in water management and the need for the Crown to address Maori rights and interests in water? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Cabinet will be considering and responding to those issues in due course. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I seek leave to table the article in the  
Dominion Post 
 
“Call for market in water”. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I seek leave to table an article from the  
Southland Times  
of 24 March 2007 in which NgaiTahu accused the Government of injecting fear into the community by suggesting that Maori want ownership of fresh water. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Health Minister—Confidence 
4.  
JOHN KEY (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Health? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes. 
John Key 
: Who will be held accountable for knowingly signing the contract with Dr Bierre a man whom the district health boards knew at the time they signed was using inside information and a man whom the Prime Minister has described as duplicitous and whose behaviour she believes may border on criminal? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Clearly the board is accountable. The first task right now is to secure lab services while the Government considers what other inquiries might be made. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Is it correct that Dr Bierre’s impropriety in remaining intimately involved in the deliberations leading up to the selection of the lab service provider when he had an absolute conflict of interest lies at the heart of the problem yet while he was doing that he was directly and personally supported by his close friends National MP Dr Paul Hutchison and—his running mate for the board—Dr Jackie Blue? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I can absolutely confirm that to be the case. Indeed when one looks at Dr Bierre’s letter to Dr Paul Hutchison one finds it clear that Dr Hutchison had suggested that Dr Bierre write to him soliciting a letter to Wayne Brown. It is further clear from my investigations that Dr Bierre acted as a scrutineer for the National Party at the Onehunga Primary School booth in the 2005 general election. 
John Key 
: Why should the New Zealand public have any confidence in a situation where the same people in whom the Prime Minister is saying she has no confidence at all—and whom she is refusing to express confidence in—are now being asked to sort out the contracts and the mess that she seems to be blaming them for getting the public into? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The court has provided a very clear direction of what should happen and that is that the boards should go back to the drawing board on a tender. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Madam Speaker—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Please be seated. There is a practice growing that when some members rise to ask a supplementary question comments are made of a personal nature that are certainly not conducive to the keeping of order in this House. Every member in this House is entitled to ask a supplementary question without that sort of comment from any side of the House. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: What percentage of the Labtests Auckland consortium shares did Dr Bierre have and at what price and what did he and his partners gain from this involvement? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The court judgment reveals that Dr Bierre was given 15 percent of the Labtests Auckland consortium shares for a total sum of $83000. The contract value of course over the 8 years of the contract was half a billion dollars. It is further noted in the judgment that Dr Bierre had contributed none of the $17 million of working capital to establish this service. The court judgment also makes clear that in the consideration of what proportion of the shareholding Dr Bierre should have the key attributes he was said to bring to the consortium were his position on the Auckland District Health Board which provided excellent lines of communication of information and his being a major influence in the restructuring model for pathology services provision. This is a man Jacqui Blue was proud to have scrutineering for her at the 2005 general election. 
John Key 
: If the Prime Minister thinks the appointees cannot do their job properly and if she thinks Mr Bierre is such a bad individual why is she entertaining his possibly being able to enter into a new contract with the district health boards? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I would like this answer to be listened to in silence because I want to be very careful that I do not say anything that invites judicial review. Any such direction from me on who should be considered for the contract could well invite judicial review. I note from the judgment that the plaintiff is no longer seeking a remedy that Labtests Auckland not be able to tender and that the court in fact ruled that the unfair advantage Labtests Auckland had gained was overcome by the process being started again. The court further ruled that the very public nature of the proceeding had now effectively neutralised Labtests Auckland’s advantage. 
John Key 
: How can she have confidence in the Minister of Health who told the House yesterday that he has no objection to the Auckland regional district health boards giving a multimillion dollar contract for lab services to someone whose behaviour she has suggested could be criminal? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I was here yesterday and I am not sure I heard anything along those lines but I would repeat the answer I just gave: for either me or the Minister to indicate whom a tender should now be awarded to runs the risk of a decision made following such a direction being judicially reviewed. 
John Key 
: Can the Prime Minister tell the country who will be accountable for this fiasco given that her own appointees signed a contract with Dr Bierre knowing that he had inside information; whom will she be holding accountable and when will she be determining that? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I said the board is accountable. Both the Minister and I have declined to express confidence while there are new arrangements to be put in place from 1 July. We will be considering what further investigations are to be made into the quality of the advice on which the board acted. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: I seek leave to table a reply by the Minister of Health Pete Hodgson where he directly thanks Dr Paul Hutchison for being the first— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There— 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: —to point out a conflict of interest to the Auckland District Health Board and where Justice Asher says— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Please be seated. The rule is that when members seek leave to table documents the documents are to be identified; a speech is not given to describe what is actually in the documents. I have noticed the practice has come about for in effect people of all parties to in fact make speeches. In future I will be cutting them off. The document has to be identified but it does not have to have a full explanation after it. Was there any objection to the tabling? There was objection. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Can I then seek leave to table the letter from Dr Hutchison to Mr Brown the chair of the Auckland District Health Board which having pointed out the conflict of interest then states that Dr Bierre—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Please be seated! I do not need any assistance from that side of the House. I was rising to make the point. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I would like you to review the ruling that you have just made and question whether in fact there was interruption during the point of order from the Prime Minister and what the remedy for that is. It is not usually I think a fourth general warning. Mr Brownlee obviously led the interruption but at least six of his mates were screaming during the point of order. That is outside the requirements and in the last week many of us have been required to leave the Chamber for a lot less. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Yes. I know that the member is right. But I would also say that the Prime Minister was going on to describe the document as I was rising to my feet. Now everybody knows what the rules are. Points of order are to be heard in silence. When points of order are made to table documents a brief description only will be given in future; if members continue they will be leaving. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Just as a question of clarification how many times is it possible for one to table the same document? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Well these matters as I am sure the member knows are with the leave of the House. 
Auckland Regional Transport Authority—Rail Electrification 
5.  
JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: Is he satisfied with the Auckland Regional Transport Authority’s business case for the electrification of the Auckland passenger rail system; if not why not? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 A case has been put forward that sets out plans and justifications for electrification. There are still a significant number of issues surrounding that—in particular the issue of funding. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why does Land Transport New Zealand require the use of the Treasury discount rate of 10 percent to evaluate major passenger transport investment while countries like the UK the USA Canada and Australia use 3 to 6 percent thus valuing future benefits more highly; and does he agree that the 5 percent discount rate used in the New Zealand Energy Strategy draft for energy-efficiency investments is also appropriate for rail electrification which both increases energy efficiency and uses renewable energy? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: To some extent discount rates are arbitrary whichever ones are used. I would have thought a discount rate of 3 percent would be exceptionally low if it applied to almost any project particularly given the structure of New Zealand’s interest rates which have a bearing upon an appropriate discount rate. One could use a somewhat lower discount rate but it would not make as big a difference to total cost-benefit ratios as the member might think. 
Peter Brown 
: Although it is a bit like the chicken and the egg is there not a pressing need for more modern locomotives and carriages the double tracking of the rail track and the upgrading of many stations just to keep up with increasing demand and are not all of those required ahead of the electrification of the Auckland rail system? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: At the end of 2005 we announced $600 million for the upgrading of Auckland’s rail network. The most recent announcement within that context was the reopening of the Onehunga line and the upgrading of the Newmarket Railway Station. Electrification actually has a cost of at the moment—and these things always tend to increase once one gets closer to them—half a billion dollars which is interesting because in the Auckland plan of a year ago I think the cost was $170 million. It is not just a matter of stringing up electric wires; there is a great deal more to electrifying the railway than that. Of course that would tend to lead on to an argument for a billion-dollar project which is an extremely rubbery estimate around the building of the underground loop. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is the Minister aware that the Auckland Regional Transport Authority is also interested in the possibility of diesel electric engines for new train services in the Auckland region that that would be at a fraction of the cost of complete electrification and that it would have a very positive effect on climate change policy to the extent that it would take a lot of trucks and cars off the road? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: It is obviously true that the extent to which we can increase the number of rail passengers—and the growth in rail usage in Auckland in the last 4 years has been very substantial indeed—will take some pressure off the roads. It will not remove the need for completion of Auckland’s road network because the numbers involved in rail transport are still relatively small and most of the traffic is not simply passenger traffic moving from one place to another; a great deal of it is goods and services traffic for example. A decision around electrification will enable decisions around long-term rail purchases to be made but contrary to what is often stated even if the decision were made now there would still be a need to acquire some diesel engines in the interim because the current timetable would have electrification completed in 2013. 
Shane Jones 
: What other steps is the Government taking to support passenger rail in Auckland? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: There has been a massive level of investment in public transport in Auckland. In terms of the current quinquennium—2006-10— spending on local roads has gone up threefold; on State highways in Auckland nearly fourfold; and on public transport in Auckland twelvefold. So it is quite clear where the major thrust of increased investment has gone. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Does he agree that if we are attempting to move to a quality public transport system that is used by not just low-income people it is appropriate to value the time saved by commuters who choose trains at the same rate as we value the time saved by car drivers commuting in evaluating the benefits of public transport investments? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Again one could argue a great deal around that. I notice that the valuation of both is at a very low level given what wages are. But of course one of the essential differences is that if one is driving a car one cannot be doing anything else; if one is in a train one can. Therefore the value of time lost when in a car is more than that lost when on a train. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Does he agree that the economics of rail change if rail rolling stock is regarded as having a life of 40 years—which it does in fact have—rather than the 25 years that the Land Transport manual directs? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: If rail rolling stock is to last 40 years usually a great deal of work has to be done to it in the interim; often there are two or three rebuilds during that period of time. The point I am trying to make is that one can fiddle the figures as much as one likes to produce the answer one wants but I do not think that is the best way of making rational decisions around these sorts of issues. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why is he happy to fully fund State Highway 20 when the benefit-cost ratio is 1.2 and falling with the increase in construction costs but not at this stage to even partially fund the Auckland rail electrification with a benefit-cost ratio of between 1.5 and 2.34 if we use even a conservative discount rate of 7 percent an assumed life of 40 years and the same value for travel time saved; and when will he make a decision to electrify now? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Well I am never going to make a decision to electrify now—I am quite sure of that. It would be a sheer physical impossibility to engage in that. I think the member needs to consider that we have to work through this process carefully and one of the key issues in any such decision is who pays what. She might find that if her local motorists in the Coromandel are paying the full cost of Auckland’s electrification it might not be wildly popular. 
Keith Locke 
: I seek leave to table a summary of the business case for rail in the August 2006— 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Laboratory Testing—Confidence in Auckland District Health Board Chair 
6.  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Health 
: What is it in the Auckland laboratory testing High Court judgment that prevents him from expressing confidence in Wayne Brown chair of the Auckland District Health Board? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health) 
: 
 The judgment is critical of Mr Brown in several places most notably in paragraph 155 where the judge said that although Mr Brown may have interpreted Dr Bierre’s statement that he was “mothballing” his activities as a promise that Dr Bierre would stop seeking funding Mr Brown should have clarified that. In other words if Mr Brown took Dr Bierre at his word he should not have done so. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Has the Minister ever sought any assurance or advice directly from Wayne Brown or discussed with Mr Brown his handling of the Bierre conflict of interest prior to the recent High Court decision; if so when? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Through the Ministry of Health I maintained a close watch on the contract as it went through its various processes: the letting of the tender the court case and the approach of 1 July 2005. In the course of that I have spoken to Mr Brown on many occasions and there has been no suggestion that any conflict of interest was material. In fact the board received advice from both the Audit Office and its own legal support that it was not material. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Is the letter of 27 June 2005 to Wayne Brown as chair of the Auckland District Health Board from Dr Paul Hutchison which was signed by him in his capacity as National’s spokesperson for health therefore a ringing endorsement of Dr Bierre and the advocacy of his case; and is it a personal endorsement by Dr Hutchison or in fact an endorsement by the National Party? 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. This is of course a serious issue but in respect of the questions that are being asked the Minister has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I agree with the member. The first part of the question was all right but the second part was certainly out of order. The Minister may address only the first part. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: In answering the first part of the question I can confirm that the letter was signed by Dr Paul Hutchison as the National spokesperson on health and I note in passing that that was during the long 2005 election campaign. Had National won that election Dr Hutchison would probably have been Mr Brown’s boss. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Can the Minister confirm that he met with Mr Wayne Brown within 6 weeks of the Minister first discovering the conflict of interest allegations involving Dr Bierre; and can the Minister advise the House whether he received any assurances or advice from Mr Brown personally at that meeting assuring him as to the handling of the Bierre allegations? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Given that I meet with Mr Brown a lot the answer to the first part of the question is quite probably yes. However the answer to the second part is no because I had long since received advice from the Auckland District Health Board that it did not perceive there to be any conflict of interest. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: So is the Minister confirming that he met with Mr Brown within weeks of first being alerted to the Bierre conflict of interest allegation and that he did not raise that matter with Wayne Brown the man who was responsible for overseeing the handling of the conflict of interest in this matter? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I am confirming that rather than waiting for weeks to get confirmation I sought and received confirmation within days. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Would it surprise the Minister to learn that prior to Wayne Brown becoming chairman of the Auckland District Health Board members of that board were required to declare conflicts of interest at the beginning of every meeting as a standing item on the agenda and that one of Wayne Brown’s first actions as chairman was to ditch the declaration of interest as a standing item at district health board meetings; and does he realise that that decision by Wayne Brown may in fact have proved fatal to this contracting process? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Far from it! After people were elected at the late 2004 election the Auckland District Health Board held a workshop. It was led by Richard Westlake who is a well-respected governor of many boards. I have read the notes from that workshop. They are very clear that conflict of interest issues matter and they are very clear about how they might best be avoided. Dr Bierre regrettably did not follow the advice he was given. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Does the Minister realise that it now appears that every district health board in New Zealand except Auckland District Health Board requires its members to declare conflicts of interest as a standing item on board agendas at the beginning of every meeting and that the Auckland District Health Board appears to be the exception with regard to that because Wayne Brown ditched the requirement in his first act as chairman of that district health board; and does the Minister now believe that a declaration of interests should in fact be on the agenda of every single district health board in New Zealand? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Managing conflicts of interest is the responsibility of boards and of the members who comprise them. The Auckland District Health Board went through a process to ensure that all its new members knew what the issue was about—and on top of that the Ministry of Health ran workshops as well. There is no shortage of information on how to manage oneself if one believes that one has a conflict of interest—no shortage of information on how to do that. It happens at Cabinet level often for example. We know how to do it; unless one chooses not to do it the rules are clear. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: I seek leave to table two sets of agendas. The first is that of a meeting of the Auckland District Health Board before Wayne Brown became chairman— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document— 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: —which shows conflict of interest was— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry; I am just giving a ruling. The member has identified what the agenda was. Is there any objection? 
Document not tabled. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: And the second is a document that shows that Wayne Brown became chairman of the Auckland District Health Board and ditched the requirement. 
Document not tabled. 
Superannuation—Annual Adjustment 
7.  
BARBARA STEWART (NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: How much extra per week will people on New Zealand superannuation receive as a result of the annual adjustment coming into effect on 1 April this year? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 Superannuation and veterans pension rates are being set at 66 percent of the net average weekly wage as at 1 April 2007 in line with the Government’s agreement with New Zealand First. From 1 April the rates for New Zealand superannuation and the veterans pension will be increased by 5 percent. If the rates had risen by the consumer price index adjustment alone they would have risen by 2.63 percent. The increase for a married couple will be $20.24 per week net or $1052.48 per year. The increase for a single person living alone will be $13.16 per week or $684 per year. 
Barbara Stewart 
: Can the Minister advise the House of any other policies aimed at improving the lives of our seniors? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am aware that good progress is being made on the SuperGold card and that New Zealand First is working with the Government to progress the matter of portability of overseas pensions and funding within the elder-care sector. 
National Certificate of Educational Achievement—Confidence 
8.  
KATHERINE RICH (National) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Does he have full confidence in NCEA to deliver a fair robust and reliable qualification for New Zealand students; if so why? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 Yes I have confidence in the ability of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Ministry of Education to deliver a fair robust and reliable National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) qualification. Reviews in 2005 set out 191 recommendations to improve the system. Agencies have already implemented 168 recommendations giving priority to the urgent operational issues. As a result the 2006 assessment process was smooth and transparent. We are now working through the final recommendations and further refinements to the design of NCEA will be put in place this year. 
Katherine Rich 
: Why is the Minister so confident when the Prime Minister has said on radio that she is “at somewhat of a loss” and “a little mystified as to why some of [NCEA’s] outstanding matters haven’t been dealt with.” before now—including some matters that she believed had been agreed to by the Government 2 years ago but that had still not been implemented? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I said to the  
New Zealand Herald 
 where the member has got that report from I think the Prime Minister represents the justifiable urgency we feel to make sure that these recommendations are put in place and that is what will be happening this year. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Urgency? It should have been done 2 years ago. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I should mention to Mr Nick Smith who is yelling across the House again that if he goes to the State Services Commission report he will see that the State Services Commission recommended this as a 5-year change plan so we are doing OK but of course as the Prime Minister suggests we need to move urgently. 
Hon Marian Hobbs 
: What are the benefits of NCEA? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: NCEA provides a standards-based assessment that is fit for the needs of students in this century. For example it gives students more varied opportunities to learn. It provides students of all abilities with the scope to show what they can do. It recognises achievement using a range of assessment methods. It reports meaningful information about students’ actual abilities and they can take those to a future institution or to an employer. That is why the vast majority of educators and employers agree that we are headed in the right direction as reported in the State Services Commission report in 2005. It wants us to focus on continuous improvement to New Zealand’s national qualification. Meanwhile I believe that the National Party’s continued calls to return to the old style of assessment are not worth considering. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: In the Minister’s considerations of possible changes to NCEA to which of the following is the Minister giving serious consideration: the removal of unit standards from NCEA credits; improvement of the moderation of internal assessment; acknowledgment of “not achieved”; or provision of additional credits for merit and excellence awards? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The agenda for change in NCEA has been set largely by the State Services Commission report that I mentioned before. As I have said in the House and on a number of occasions I am looking forward to working through the remainder of those recommendations during the year and I am certainly looking forward to the input from that member. 
Katherine Rich 
: If the Prime Minister is surprised “mystified” and “at somewhat of a loss” to explain why changes to NCEA have not been implemented that is not a ringing endorsement of his ministerial leadership is it? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am sure that if the Prime Minister were asked the question that the member raises she would say that yes I am a hard-working and conscientious member. I say to the member that I share the Prime Minister’s view that there is a need to move as rapidly as we possibly can on NCEA to ensure that we have all of the recommendations in place and that is what we are going to do. 
Katherine Rich 
: In that case is the Minister implying that the Prime Minister wading into his portfolio and saying that she is surprised mystified and at somewhat of a loss to explain the lack of progress with NCEA is a good thing—it is not a good look is it? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I have to say that the Prime Minister is always a good look in all portfolios. 
Katherine Rich 
: Has the Prime Minister discussed her concerns about NCEA with him personally in particular asking him for an explanation as to why changes that she thought were agreed to 2 years ago by the Government have not been implemented? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As the Prime Minister pointed out earlier today unlike the National Party we are a very collaborative open talk-to-each-other kind of party. We are constantly consulting and working back and forwards. I can assure the member that the Prime Minister has discussed with all Ministers aspects of their portfolio and she certainly discusses those things with me. 
Katherine Rich 
: When the Prime Minister says that the Government agreed 2 years ago to returning a record of failure to a student’s record of learning and says she is “somewhat at a loss” as to why that has not happened why did he not do it? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: At the risk of tedious repetition which I think is in the Standing Orders I say to the member once again that in 2005 we had 190-plus recommendations of which 161 have been done. As I mentioned before the focus initially has been on operations running smoothly and that has of course happened. We have had some design changes in and we are about to embark on the remaining ones. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: What does the Minister believe would have been the consequences if the original programme for the introduction of NCEA as established by the previous National Government had been followed? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: All I can say is that given the total and utter disaster of 9 long years of a National Government it would have been another disaster. 
Katherine Rich 
: Why does the Minister not understand that he will get tedious repetition of the same question when he does not answer it; and why does he not answer the question which is that if the Prime Minister thinks that 2 years ago recording failure was agreed to by her Government why did he not implement that? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am really sorry to have to repeat my answer again to the member but I have to have to take her back through what we have been doing. From 2005 of 191 recommendations 161 or so are done. First of all as a priority we have introduced the operations part of what we have been doing. That is running pretty well I think we would all agree. We have done similar design changes and we are about to move on the others. I think the Prime Minister—I say once again—is quite rightly saying that we need to move with urgency. 
Katherine Rich 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. My question was pretty specific. It asked the Minister why he had not implemented a specific decision that the Prime Minister thought had been made. The Minister went on to make a whole bunch of amorphous statements about the wider process that is being undertaken. In my view he made no attempt to address the question. It was just a load of blather and a lot of words. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry. I think the Minister did attempt to and did answer the question at great length on several occasions. But as members know they do not always get the answer they want from the question they ask. 
Families—Benefit Changes 
9.  
RUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What changes that will benefit New Zealand families come into force on 1 April this year? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 I am pleased to advise the House that a number of significant changes take place from 1 April in addition to the increases already announced to superannuation the minimum wage and annual leave entitlements. As endorsed by the House yesterday the Working for Families tax credits will increase by $10 per week per child on 1 April. Unemployment sickness invalids widows and domestic purposes benefit rates will all increase in line with the increase in the Consumers Price Index on 1 April. Additionally on 1 April there will be an increase of $10 per week per child in the foster care allowance and a $20 per week per child increase in the orphans and the unsupported child’s benefit rates. Those moves will ensure that all families in New Zealand will share the benefits of a growing economy. 
Russell Fairbrother 
: Has the Minister seen any reports that not all families should share in the wealth of a growing economy? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I heard an extraordinary report from the House yesterday that an MP had described targeted tax credits as a joke. I doubt whether William and Josephine from Kaitaia who actually live in that member’s electorate would think that receiving more than $300 per week in Working for Families tax credits is a joke. 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: How much? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: More than $300 per week. But I am sure they would have regarded the $10 per week that was being offered by National at the last election as a complete farce. 
Corrections Department—Confidence 
10.  
SIMON POWER (National—Rangitikei) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Does he have confidence in his department; if so why? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 Yes but there is always room for improvement. 
Simon Power 
: What does it say about the management of his prisons when a former officer claimed on  
One News 
 last night that guards used access to cellphones drugs gang paraphernalia and conjugal visits in order to “buy good behaviour” from inmates “on a constant basis” while management turned a blind eye? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I have inquired whether management was informed by this person of any such allegations at any stage. I am informed that no such information was provided to management. I remind the member that these are allegations. We welcome any information that that individual can provide to Mr Patten who is carrying out an independent inquiry at Rimutaka Prison at this moment. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Can the Minister confirm in respect of the use of drugs as raised by Mr Power that in the dying days of the last National administration 61 percent of inmates tested for drugs in Rangipo prison showed positive and that in the last year—1999—an inmate was murdered because there was a gang war within the prison between those supplying LSD alcohol and marijuana? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I can confirm those outrageous statistics and I remind the member that we have spent a huge amount of money improving the security systems within our prisons. We have reduced the rate of drug offending which is now down to an estimated 15 percent and at one prison that rate is down to 13 percent. I believe that is a huge improvement. 
Simon Power 
: Why as was alleged last night is contraband being used as a management tool to keep inmates quiet and how can this behaviour from Government employees be condoned when it involves not only items that prisoners cannot access—because they are supposed to have lost their liberty—but also illegal items? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: No such behaviour would be condoned in any way. These are allegations and I encourage the individual who has made them to take the information to Mr Patten to have them thoroughly investigated. 
Simon Power 
: What is the Minister’s response to claims made by the prison guard on  
One News 
 last night that conjugal visits could be arranged for inmates in exchange for monetary payments to guards and does allowing these visits not create a massive breach of security? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I remind that member before he goes on that I am informed that those allegations were made by someone who was arrested by the police. 
Simon Power 
: How can the Minister have confidence in his chief executive Barry Matthews who said in the weekend that “It would be foolish to think it’s just a few bad apples because there’s clearly been more than one or two people involved and therefore one has to also say it has to be the culture …” yet told the  
New Zealand Herald 
 a month ago 
that the number of prison staff involved in corruption represented “just a few bad apples”? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Because that is the situation. We have 11 staff currently stood down at Rimutaka Prison and we have two at Christchurch Prison. Wherever there are indications of inappropriate behaviour or illegal behaviour we expect prison managers to follow it up to stand those individuals down and to ultimately prosecute them. 
Simon Power 
: Why is his department seeking tenders to pay a contractor $180000 plus GST to watch guards at Auckland women’s prison talking to inmates; and is this initiative simply consistent with a prison that was being built for 3 years before the costs to finalise it were established—those costs being $100 million over the original estimate—and consistent with a department that is on track to spend $1 million a month on consultants? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: The Government has spent $158 million building a 286-bed prison to securely contain rehabilitate and reintegrate the female prisoners who are sent there. 
Simon Power 
: It was supposed to cost $57 million. 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: The evaluation the member refers to is to measure the gains that the new prisons and systems are providing for the corrections system. 
Ron Mark 
: Is not the most important thing right now in terms of restoring public confidence in the Department of Corrections and the justice system that we see thorough investigations take place; that we see people who have been identified as having broken the law prosecuted; that convicted people are put in prison regardless of what office they might hold in the Department of Corrections today or in the past; and that those people are brought to account by the law? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: Absolutely and it is my determination and that of the chief executive Barry Matthews to do exactly that. 
Takeovers Code—Avoidance 
11.  
MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Commerce 
: Has she received any reports of deals being structured as schemes of arrangement and amalgamations in order to avoid the Takeovers Code; if so what steps is she taking to address this issue? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce) 
: 
 The outgoing chair John King and the new chair David Jones have renewed the Takeovers Panel’s calls for these issues to be addressed. When the earlier call was made public last year an amendment to the Securities Legislation Bill was proposed on the basis that we should not wait for another piece of legislation. Then the Government proposed an out-of-scope amendment to the Business Law Reform Bill to address an aspect of its concerns. The first was proposed by the National Party and the second was opposed by the National Party. I have now referred the matter back to the Takeovers Panel. I am confident it will report a solution that will be acceptable to everyone. 
Maryan 
 Street 
: Why has the matter been referred back to the Takeovers Panel when it has already reported once on this matter? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Since the time of the Takeovers Panel’s report the Government has announced a new regulatory impact analysis framework to take effect from 1 April 2007. I have asked the Takeovers Panel to include a regulatory impact statement with its report. This is the first time that this measure has been adopted. This will strengthen the process and is consistent with this Government’s approach to ensuring quality regulation. The Takeovers Panel has welcomed the reference and has issued a statement today saying it will commence the work immediately and in so doing will consult further with the commercial community. 
Simon Power 
: What does the Minister say to current minority shareholders who while she orders another review potentially have to bear the consequences of a loophole that Pansy Wong suggested should be closed in the first place through an amendment during the Committee stage of the Securities Legislation Bill 7 months ago? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I would ask them why the National Party had not supported the amendment to the Business Law Reform Bill. 
Carbon Credits—Devolution 
12.  
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she stand by her statement in respect of forestry and the Kyoto Protocol: “Nor was there any promise to industry that the credits would be devolved.”? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes but if the member has information from the time of the last National Government that he would like to throw into the equation I am all ears. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I actually have some information about her Government. How can the Prime Minister pretend that no promise was made to devolve credits to foresters when in July 2000 the Cabinet record states that it was agreed that “all or most sink credits” would be tradable internationally and would accrue to those undertaking sink initiatives? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am well aware of the July 2000 “in principle” Cabinet decision to allocate some emission units relating to the 2008-12 period and that in principle some proportion would accrue to those undertaking relevant activities. Of course that is not a decision or a promise to devolve anything free of charge and as the member is well aware in April 2002 the Government decided not to confirm that decision. 
Hon Jim Anderton 
: Can the Prime Minister confirm reports that the only person who has promised foresters carbon credits is Roger Dickie of the Kyoto Forestry Association who did so as far back as the mid-1990s well before Kyoto was even negotiated? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: That does indeed appear to be the case. I understand that that would of course involve a transfer of up to $1.5 billion to those owning forests. I also see that the National Party whose leader has gone from believing climate change is a hoax to saying he always believed it was a problem is now promising to return some of the Government’s held carbon credits to the post-1990 foresters. My question is how much and whether it is the whole $1.5 billion that Roger Dickie wants. 
R Doug Woolerton 
: Is it the Government’s intention to have an internal private carbon trading regime within New Zealand while our international Kyoto responsibilities are handled exclusively by the Government? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Obviously a “cap and trade” mechanism could be what comes out of all the deliberation at the moment. A lot of options are on the table and I take this opportunity to thank parties from New Zealand First to United Future to the Greens who were prepared to enter into constructive discussion about that—something we are not hearing from the hard-core Opposition. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What did the Government mean when it published the document entitled  
Forest Sinks and the Kyoto Protocol 
 which states on page 10 that Cabinet has agreed that foresters would get a proportion of benefits from forest sinks and the article goes on to quote an example: “Mr Pine plants a 10 hectare woodlot in the winter of 1990. … He will therefore be eligible for sink credits proportional to the carbon stock increase between 2008 and 2012”; if that was not telling foresters to plant trees and get credits what in Buddha’s name did it mean? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It would be a fairly silly forester who took that as a signal to plant trees when it was a scenario in a discussion document that followed an “in principle” decision which had yet to be confirmed and of course was not in the event confirmed. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Does she agree with the advice from her Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet that stated: “Establishing landowners as the principal owners of emission units would provide the strongest incentives to protect and enhance sinks and plant new sinks. This would be absent if all emission units were retained by the Government.” and given that that is what her Government is now proposing to do will she accept responsibility for record levels of deforestation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Advice is simply that. It is not written on tablets of stone and it may or may not be agreed with. As the member is well aware the rate of new planting tracks very closely the rate of return in forestry which sadly in recent years has been rather down. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: How can this Prime Minister have the audacity to open the parliamentary year with the promise of New Zealand becoming carbon neutral when her Government’s policy on forestry which has such a huge impact on New Zealand’s carbon balance is driving record levels of deforestation and the Anglican Church describes it as a “horror scenario” the  
Independent 
 newspaper describes it as a “chainsaw massacre” and when Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials are now predicting 170000 hectares of deforestation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: If the member has a magic wand to wave on how to improve forestry prices I would be very pleased to hear about it. Also I would be pleased to see anything that amounted to a policy on these issues from the National Party. But when the leader says it is a hoax to talk about climate change in the middle of 2005 then 2½ years later says he has always believed that it was a problem can we be surprised that National has no policy? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Did she seek advice from US President George Bush at her meeting and lunch on how New Zealand could better constrain emissions noting that United Nations figures show that since she has been Prime Minister and George Bush has been President New Zealand emissions have been growing at 2.5 times the rate of those in the US and does she see an irony in these figures given her Government’s critical comment on the US policies on climate change? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Years of record economic growth under a Labour Government have of course on the old patterns of development and energy supply meant that we have had some Kyoto issues. I am very happy for us to continue collaborating with the United States on climate change. Indeed since the 2003 partnership with the US on climate change was signed more than 30 scientific projects have seen us collaborate on how we reduce emissions get new technologies up and improve energy efficiency. 
Questions to Members 
Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill—Reasonable Force Amendment 
1.  
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
 to the  
Member in charge of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill 
: Will she discharge her bill if it is amended to allow reasonable force for the purpose of correction? 
SUE BRADFORD (Member in charge of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill) 
: 
 Yes. 
Chester Borrows 
: Does she stand by the comments she has made all the way through the debate that her bill will prohibit smacking or does she now put political expediency before principle and agree with the Prime Minister that the bill will not prohibit smacking? 
SUE BRADFORD 
: The bill is not a ban on smacking. Smacking is already illegal under section 194 of the Crimes Act relating to assaults on children. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I will take one more supplementary question and Gordon Copeland was on his feet first. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: You can have a point of order but the normal practice is that two supplementary questions can be asked on questions to members. 
Peter Brown 
: I respectfully draw to the Speaker’s attention that normal practice is to give the first call to the senior party in this House. New Zealand First has seven members as against United Future’s three. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That would be the case except that the member of the senior party did not rise first. Gordon Copeland rose first. 
Peter Brown 
: I seek leave therefore to ask a supplementary question to the member. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Will the member be introducing an amendment to her bill to make it clear that taking a child to time out will not be a criminal offence given her public statement that that matter could and would be ironed out in the Committee stage or is it her intention that time out for the purpose of correction should be a criminal offence? 
SUE BRADFORD 
: In response to the first part of the question no. In relation to the second part I say an amendment was already made in the select committee process—and it is part of the amended bill before the House today—that makes it clear that actions like putting a child into a room for time out will be covered by a reasonable force defence. 
Peter Brown 
: How does the member reconcile her answer to the principal question that she has just been asked with her earlier statement in the House whilst we were debating the need or otherwise for a referendum that Parliament must decide the outcome of the bill? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Perhaps the member would like to clarify his question for the benefit of members of the House. [ 
Interruption 
] Let the member ask his question. 
Peter Brown 
: During the debate on the commencement date Sue Bradford took a call and said that she would not accept a public referendum because it was the obligation and responsibility of Parliament to decide the outcome of this bill. Yet we heard her answer here that if she does not get the outcome she likes or wants she will withdraw the bill. How is that democracy? 
SUE BRADFORD 
: I have no objection to anyone in this country organising signatures for a referendum. What I said earlier in the House was that I believe that the parliamentary process is the process of our democracy and that we as members of Parliament have every right to continue with that process. 
Gordon Copeland 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Point of order Gordon Copeland. 
Peter Brown 
: That is OK; that is OK. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: You have to be quicker on your feet I think. 
Gordon Copeland 
: I seek the leave of the House to table a document in which Ms Bradford is quoted as saying that she will sort out the issue around time out during the Committee stage of this bill. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I notice that your ruling has now been given twice this afternoon. Can I take it as gospel that you will not take a call from any member of Parliament who is not the fastest to get to his or her feet at all? I have on many occasions seen a call be awarded to members out of turn or when they were not as quick to get to their feet as another member. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. It is the first member who catches—please be seated; I am on my feet. 
Peter Brown 
: Am I not big enough to catch your eye? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: That is true actually. But if you are slow then it is a bit difficult. The first member who catches my eye gets the call and on occasion one does get out of order. That happens to members of all parties because people are sometimes preoccupied with matters other than the business before the House. 
Points of Order 
Questions for Written Answer—Replies 
PANSY WONG (National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I seek your help with regard to outstanding answers to my written questions Nos 2129 to 2132 to the Minister of— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. Would the member please be seated. There is an accepted procedure that I follow rigorously. Members notify me; they do not raise these matters in the House. I will make sure that the issue is attended to in good time. 
General Debate 
Hon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Defence) 
: 
 I move  
That the House take note of miscellaneous business 
. Last week we saw the Leader of the Opposition John Key yet again have to defend his own competency following his ill-judged attack on the Prime Minister’s trip to the United States. Yet again the media were left questioning his inexperience lack of depth and poor judgment. Mr Key’s claim that the trip to Washington was a foreign policy failure said Colin Espiner in the  
Press 
 was “wide of the mark. In fact it’s an embarrassing indictment of National’s own slippery grasp of foreign affairs.” 
 If members think that is bad enough let us listen to what Colin James one of the most respected political analysts in the media said. Those members laugh but that is a fact. “So what was John Key up to sniping at Helen Clark while she was in Washington? It read” he said “like petty domestic politics when the imperative was strategic foreign policy.” Strategic foreign policy from John Key! One would have to be joking. But Colin James went on to ask: “Was this another example of John Key sound biting himself out of the gravitas he would need as Prime Minister?”. Shallow—that is the judgment of the news media. “Was this a foreign policy failure? No.” said Audrey Young in the  
New Zealand Herald 
. “In fact it was a huge milestone in the relationship between New Zealand and the United States.” 
Once again John Key showed himself to fall well short of the mark when it came to leadership. Let us listen to it—petty shallow stupid prat poor grasp of the facts plain wrong. Those are not my words. That is the news media’s indictment of John Key’s failure to come up to the mark in foreign policy or in any other area. I would like to ask Mr McCully where the so-called panel of experts designed to keep John Key out of trouble was when it came to an area where he is known to be utterly ignorant. Was Mr McCully working under Bill English’s instruction to say John Key should be allowed to fall into the pit—because Bill English is sitting there with a quiet smile on his face as John Key once again fails to come up to the mark of leadership? 
I want to ask Mr Key this. A couple of weeks ago he was talking about bipartisanship and how our country should have its major parties working together in foreign affairs and trade. He said one thing; his actions were the opposite of that. I tell Mr Key there is one thing that New Zealanders really cannot stand and it is politicians bagging their own country on issues of foreign policy and trade. They do not like it at the best of times but when the comments are so obviously patently self-interested partisan and utterly inaccurate they treat such politicians with contempt. That is what we should show to Mr Key for shooting himself in the foot on this occasion. It shows that this National Opposition is not even up to the role of being in Opposition let alone ready to take on the responsibilities of Government. It wants the perks of power but it does not have the competency to do the job. 
It was interesting to hear a comment from a man who was sitting behind Mr Key as the plane was sitting on the runway at Waitangi. Mr Key was saying to Kevin Taylor who was sitting beside him as the Air Force plane was getting ready to go out: “Is that my plane Kevin?”. Kevin said: “Yes it is sir.” John said: “Well when I’m Prime Minister we’re going to have a much better one than that. We’re going to use it all the time.” That is what Mr Key wants from politics. I tell Mr Key that that is true. He knows he said it. He was overheard saying it in the company of other people. People in this country do not respect shallowness. They are disdainful of the back-flipping— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I know that the Leader of the Opposition is a relatively new member and I should point out to him that if in fact he wants to make a personal explanation on this matter he should make it immediately. Otherwise it goes into the record and is accepted as a fact. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated; I will deal with this. That is not a point of order and the member will be seated. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. We would be happy to give Trevor Mallard leave to make a personal explanation for his disgraceful behaviour in the press gallery yesterday. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: That was not a point of order either. 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: There are two things that the New Zealand electorate does not like. It does not like the inconsistency of people who flip-flop on every issue. John Key said that climate change was a hoax 12 months ago and suddenly it is the biggest problem facing New Zealand. The electorate hates double standards. 
KEITH LOCKE (Green) 
: 
 I would like to commend the Speaker for taking so seriously the exclusion of an accredited parliamentary press gallery journalist Nick Wang from a photo opportunity on the 8th floor of the Beehive last Monday. The event was a meeting between the Chinese Vice-Premier ZengPeiyan and the Deputy Prime Minister Michael Cullen in Dr Cullen’s office. It is completely unacceptable that Mr Wang was excluded for political reasons with the process of exclusion being initiated by an intelligence official from the Chinese Embassy in Wellington. The press gallery has united in support of Mr Wang with press gallery chairwoman Marie McNicholas explaining that the police have a security role and are not supposed to be the “embarrassment police” to shield visiting politicians from critical attention. 
We know that the Chinese Government does not brook dissent in its own country and that democracy advocates are treated harshly there. We also know from instances around the world that the Chinese Government puts pressure on foreign Governments to protect if possible visiting Chinese leaders from exposure to protest or difficult questions from the media. 
In 1999 the New Zealand Police bowed to the wishes of the Chinese Government and kept protesters well away from the visiting Chinese President JiangZemin—even putting buses in the way so that the President would not see the protesters. In December 2000 the Justice and Electoral Committee published the results of a parliamentary inquiry into the police actions against the demonstrators in 1999 and recommended that police general instructions be reworked “emphasising that freedom of expression and freedom of peaceful assembly are the starting point for the Police”. 
Since then the policing of visits made by Chinese dignitaries has improved. My late colleague Rod Donald held a Tibetan flag on the steps of Parliament when a Chinese leader visited a couple of years ago and he received almost universal sympathy from this Parliament the Government and the people of New Zealand when Chinese security officers tried to block him. However I think our Government has to bear some responsibility for the police now thinking that they can act as the “embarrassment police” to use Marie McNicholas’ words. 
The Government kept the latest visit by the Chinese Vice-Premier quiet until the last moment with notification to the media being in the ministerial diary only last Friday afternoon for Wellington events on the Monday. This repeats the short notice given to the visit last October by the Chinese Commerce Minister Bo Xilai when the media was advised of his visit only the day he arrived in the country. The Minister of Trade Mr Phil Goff said at the time: “… you could assume that China was sensitive to the fact that there may be protests at the meeting and we try to accommodate their needs in terms of allowing some dignity for the Minister.” 
Senior Constable Dan O’Connell was clearly trying to “accommodate their needs” to use Mr Goff’s phrase when he said to Nick Wang outside the Beehive theatrette that they—presumably the Chinese—did not want his presence there and that if he did not leave they would cancel the ceremony. Mr Wang was eventually allowed to stay but earlier he had been refused entry to the advertised media photo opportunity in Dr Cullen’s office. The videotape shows a Chinese security officer from the Chinese Embassy in Wellington talking to a New Zealand police officer immediately after which she came over to Mr Wang and said that she had been told that he was Falun Gong and that “security issues” were involved. 
This gives lie to a statement made by Superintendent Tony McLeod on radio this morning that the police were “absolutely not” responding to pressure from the Chinese delegation. Superintendent McLeod’s response is worrying particularly when taken together with Inspector Bruce Blaney’s comment in this morning’s paper that Mr Wang was a “genuine security risk” and Inspector Blaney’s claim that he was “yelling and shouting”. Again the video gives lie to this. 
It is unacceptable for our police to imitate China’s repressive approach where they commonly clamp down on a critical journalist and then claim it was all the journalist’s fault. That is exactly what our police did when they allowed the tame Chinese media into the Vice-Premier’s meet and greet with Dr Cullen but then excluded an independent New Zealand journalist. 
We live in a democracy. We cannot import repressive Chinese techniques into our own Parliament. This is a very serious issue. We must get an apology from the police and get them to retract their attacks on Mr Wang. Their behaviour is unacceptable if this House is to operate properly. 
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay of Plenty) 
: 
 I have only one comment to make on Mr Goff’s contribution—that is I look forward to the day that is coming very soon when John Key is by far the most preferred person for Prime Minister of New Zealand. I will tell people one thing for free: accountability is on the way back. That party opposite is not prepared to deliver any accountability for the fiasco involving the Auckland laboratory contract. [ 
Interruption 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. The member knows he cannot call another member or party corrupt or a liar. He will withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I didn’t. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member used the words “corrupt and lying” and he cannot do that. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I was referring to those members’ good friend who is not a member of Parliament but is a lying corrupt person who has deceived the Auckland District Health Board. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: “A lying corrupt person”. Well why did the Minister’s mates sign the contract with the lying corrupt person? That is what Trevor Mallard has called Dr Bierre. He said he was a liar and corrupt. But the Minister’s mates signed the contract knowing that he was lying and using insider information. His mates signed the contract. Wayne Brown Pat Snedden and Kay McKelvie were all appointed by the Labour Party. They are all the Minister’s appointees on the district health board. They knew Dr Bierre used insider information—first mover advantage—to get the lead in the laboratory contracts in Auckland. That Minister’s mates signed the contract knowing that. 
Where is Mr Mallard now? He used the words “lying and corrupt” but it was his mates and the appointed hand-picked chairman of the district health boards in Auckland who signed the contract with Dr Bierre. That is the reason why this contract has been ruled out of order by the High Court of New Zealand. A judge said that it is inexplicable. He said that it cannot be comprehended that the Auckland district health boards signed a contract with one of their own members after they had discovered that he had used the information he had gained as a member. They went and gave him the contract. It is incredibly serious and as Mr English says they could do it again—and I am going to get on to that. 
What has happened here is that Dr Bierre was involved in shaping all the thinking of the district health boards on the Auckland laboratory contracts. He knew how much savings they wanted to make. He knew the way the tender would be run. He knew what the expectations of the board were in the contract and the board told Diagnostic Medlab something completely different from what it was actually thinking. Dr Bierre put in the tender and the Government’s hand-picked district health board chairman appointed by the Government signed off on that contract. 
Those board members knew that Dr Bierre had been intimately involved in the terms and conditions of that contract. They knew that they were at a meeting only a month or two before the contracts came in when Dr Bierre briefed the district health board chairman on how they should handle the contract. The Government’s hand-picked appointees went ahead and signed the contract and a judge of the High Court said that that was wrong and should not be allowed to stand. Since that time the Prime Minister has described Dr Bierre as duplicitous and the Minister of Health has said that Dr Bierre broke the law yet neither is prepared to say that that sort of person should not be allowed to contract with the public health system in New Zealand. 
Where is the accountability I ask the Minister. This is the most unprecedented action taken by the High Court. It has overturned a half-billion-dollar contract—$500 million—because the Labour Government’s appointees did not follow the basic principles of conflict of interest. They knew Dr Bierre was intimately involved in the terms and conditions of this contract yet they signed the contract. What is their cover? It is: “The Audit Office said it was OK.” Well the Audit Office said it was a very very narrow interpretation that it gave. So that cover is blown. Then they said that their lawyers gave it the OK. Their in-house counsel gave it the OK. It sounds to me as though the people on the Auckland District Health Board were looking for some cover to allow them to give this contract to Dr Bierre—a man they had been involved with from the very beginning in setting up this deal. It is absolutely appalling. 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Health) 
: 
 If accountability is on the way back it may as well be on the way back from now. Let us hear the story told again. Dr Bierre appeared on the ticket of Citizens and Ratepayers and was elected in late 2004. He was elected as a Tory in late 2004. Within 5 months he was in to see the manager of funding and planning Dr Denis Jury saying that he wanted some money. He was on the board. Dr Bierre was in to see Dr Denis Jury within 5 months saying that he wanted some money. Dr Denis Jury said “No”. 
Then within another 4 months Dr Bierre was off to see his good friend Dr Paul Hutchison who told him to write him a letter and he would get in touch with Wayne Brown the chairman. That is exactly what happened. They had a conversation. Dr Hutchison told him to write to him. It was jacked-up. The correspondence was jacked-up between Dr Paul Hutchison and Dr Bierre. At that time Dr Paul Hutchison was the National Party spokesperson on health and at that time New Zealand was in election mode. None the less Dr Hutchison told Dr Bierre to write to him and he would write to Dr Wayne Brown and that is precisely what happened. Dr Bierre was running out of money. He was closing down his lab. He went to his mate Dr Paul Hutchison and Dr Paul Hutchison said: “That’s OK. You write to me and I’ll write to Wayne Brown.” 
 So he did write to Wayne Brown and when Wayne Brown got that letter he learnt for the first time what Dr Bierre was up to. He did not know. At that time Wayne Brown wrote to Dr Bierre and said: “Watch it. You may be in breach of two statutes.” He named the statutes. In the event the judge found that those are precisely the two statutes that Dr Bierre was in breach of—the two statutes named by Wayne Brown in July 2005. Then what happened was that Dr Bierre wrote back to Wayne Brown and said: “It’s OK I’m out of here. It’s OK I am mothballing my practice. It’s OK.” And the judge said of Mr Wayne Brown in effect: “You should not have believed him. In effect you should not have believed him. That is the mistake that you made Mr Chairman.” 
Those are the circumstances. If we are to talk about accountability and if accountability is on the way back then let us remind ourselves that the Tories are in this donkey deep. Let us remind ourselves that the running mate of Dr Bierre is one Jackie Blue—on the same Citizens and Ratepayers ticket. They are very good friends and one helped the other on election day later in 2005. That is a fact. Have we heard from Dr Jackie Blue in the last 8 days? Have we heard a whisper? She was on the board she is in this House and everyone in the National Party except Dr Jackie Blue has spoken up. Why might this be? That member has not yet said a word. What did she have to say about her time on the board? What did she have to say about— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. An accusation was made by Trevor Mallard about what sort of cut Jackie Blue got. Madam Assistant Speaker I would like you to either ask the member to withdraw and apologise or kick him out—one of the two. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I ask whether the member said that. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I said: “Did she get a cut?”. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I think that it is a suggestion of corruption. The member should withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Thank you. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: If accountability is on the way back then how is it that Wayne Brown—who is now despised by the National Party as something of this Government’s lackey and as something of the Minister’s mate—that very same person was appointed to the health system in 1992? For years under the previous National Government this same gentleman served that Government as he has served this one. How is it that Ross Keenan—who is now the bad man in the piece now someone who is another one of the Minister’s mates and now someone who is a lackey—was first appointed under the previous National Government? Where is the accountability? If accountability is on the way back then I heard nothing of that in Tony Ryall’s speech. 
How is it that the current National Party health spokesperson thinks that Dr Bierre is a bad guy when the previous National Party health spokesperson not only thinks that he is a good guy but also holds him in “personal high regard” and went off to Wayne Brown during an election campaign signing himself as the National health spokesperson and prospectively the incoming Minister—thank God that did not happen—saying that he needs to be considered? Where is the accountability there? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 The reason this Government is on the way down is that we have incompetent Ministers overseeing all of the core important services for the public—whether it is in the important area of health which has been highlighted by Tony Ryall; whether it has been in key areas like public safety and corrections which were highlighted by my colleague Simon Power; or whether it has been in a basic area like education where Katherine Rich has been exposing incompetency. In fact it is hard to think of a single public service that is currently being run competently. 
This debacle over the half-billion-dollar contract with the Auckland District Health Board says three things about the Government. The first is that there is a lack of basic competency. News of the contract was right through the  
New Zealand Herald 
 and the media. Everybody knew that there was this controversy about a member of the district health board getting a half-billion-dollar contract. The Minister of Health Pete Hodgson did absolutely nothing until we are now at the point whereby not only is a core public health service at risk but we have a multimillion-dollar bill coming to the taxpayer. 
The second thing this debacle says about this Government is that there is a complete lack of accountability. Here we have a blatant conflict of interest on the biggest contract I have ever heard of—worth over half a billion dollars—yet a damning High Court decision was released 2½ weeks ago and nobody is accountable. The worst thing is that the Minister of Health has the audacity to say that it is Paul Hutchison’s fault. Well only one member of Parliament was mentioned in the High Court judgment and that was in the context of a comment of praise for Paul Hutchison’s alerting the district health board to that conflict of interest. 
Then we have the really worrying feature which is that the Government whether in corrections education or health does not learn the lessons of its debacles. Here we have Dr Bierre damned by every Minister in this Government but in the next breath they are still happy to do business with him and for him to be responsible for those hundreds of thousands of lab tests for the people of Auckland. 
Government members’ debates have assumed that this debate about lab testing is only about Auckland. I will tell the House what is going on in Nelson because I fear for the million people in Auckland who will have the same sort of debacle. We have had a contract process also take place in our area to which the Minister of Health gave his approval. Let us see what has happened to our lab services this year—and Auckland members might take note as to what will happen after 1 July. Our general practitioners’ spokesperson Graham Loveridge noted that where we used to have STD test results within 24 hours it now takes 7 days. Let us be honest—what does that mean? It means that those diseases will spread further. We have the example of a dear gentleman who receives Warfarin for stroke protection who has consistently for the last 2 years been able to get his test results within 24 hours. He is now waiting for 7 days. As people with a medical background would know that is a life and death issue for such patients. So I wrote to the Minister of Health Pete Hodgson and asked him where the assurances were from the district health board that there would be no deterioration in the quality of lab services for my constituents. The Minister of Health said that it was nothing to do with him—but he had approved the contract. I have the very letter in which he approved it. 
You see the rot runs deep. The very contract process that has been set for lab services in Auckland and Nelson was one that was directed by this Government. In 2002 this Labour Government transferred the responsibilities for lab testing from Health Benefits Ltd to the district health boards with one intent and one intent alone—for the district health boards to have the dirty job of trying to reduce costs regardless of the consequences for patients. The people of Nelson have had a deteriorating lab service as a consequence of this Government’s decision and now the people of Auckland are facing the same sort of consequence. 
Hon MITA RIRINUI (Minister of State) 
: 
 All the huff and puff about the Auckland District Health Board gives the National Party a distraction. It gives those members a distraction from the real issues that they have failed to deal with—that is they have never told this House what it is that they stand for. Everything else that they have talked about is nothing but a mere distraction. [ 
Interruption 
] We get a lot of heckling from that side of the Chamber but there is really no substance in it. The Hon Tony Ryall’s contribution when he talked about leadership and accountability was interesting. This is someone who has stood in the shadow of six National Party leaders in the time that he has been in this House. He has never had the fortitude to step forward himself and take on some leadership. 
Simon Power 
: Is this a maiden speech? What’s going on? 
Hon MITA RIRINUI 
: There is Simon Power who I thought would probably be a good leader—and I think a few of them amongst his caucus agree with me. The only questions he asks in this House are to the Minister of Corrections: “Do you have confidence in your department; if so why?”. Well it is obvious that he has not thought through the issues because he has not entered very far into the debate other than to ask the Minister whether he has confidence in his department. 
On 1 April 2007 there is good news for 360000 New Zealand families. That is when the Government’s Working for Families policy will be fully implemented. More than a quarter of a million families in this country are getting more money every week. That has to be good news but the National Party cannot stand it. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Speak from the heart! 
Hon MITA RIRINUI 
: I am speaking from the heart. The former Minister of Maori Affairs who is an ex-member of the New Zealand First Party and now a loud noise in the National Party never achieved anything during his time as Minister of Maori Affairs nor did he try. The budget for Te PuniKokiri the Ministry of Maori Development diminished by two-thirds under his watch. Now he says “Say it like you mean it.” Well he did it like he meant it. He tried to extinguish Maori representation in the public service. I should know; I voted against it. And what happened? He was still the former something. 
That is not the only good news from this Government because from 1 April all employees will receive 4 weeks’ annual leave. That is confirmation that this Government values families and the time that employees need to spend with their families. 
David Bennett 
: Tell those people outside you value their families! 
Hon MITA RIRINUI 
: How many times has that member interjected from way back there? 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Interjecting across the House like that makes things very difficult. There is a lot of noise. Could members please keep the interjections reasonable. 
Hon MITA RIRINUI 
: That is quite all right Madam Assistant Speaker. That is the best that that member can do: interject from the wilderness. Actually his contribution to this House confirms that he sits in the wilderness. 
I was talking about 4 weeks’ annual leave for all employees. That is only part of this Government’s contribution or commitment to the workers of this country. That will be launched after 1 April 2007. As well the minimum wage will be increased. I will give the details of that for the benefit of members. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: What about health bro? 
Hon MITA RIRINUI 
: I will get to that I say to Mr Henare. Actually I will go straight to that. 
Under the member’s watch how many private establishments in Maori communities were delivering health services to Maori? How many? I wonder if he could tell the House. The answer is absolutely none. He was not out of office more than 1 year before there were 300 establishments spread around the country. What does that tell us about that member’s representation of the Maori people during his time as Minister of Maori Affairs? 
As I said the Ministry of Maori Development’s budget diminished by two-thirds under his watch. That made it almost impossible for Maori health providers out there in the communities to build their capacity because there was a lack of fortitude from the then Minister of Maori Affairs. Now those providers have proliferated around the country. I mean his own whanaungas in the far north could not give him the details because he has not bothered to go and look himself. I am sure that Hone Harawira will tell him about the rise in Maori broadcasting in the far north the rise in Maori health provider networks in the far north and the rise in Maori participation on district health boards—Hone Harawira could tell him a lot of things that are happening in the health sector in the far north. Mr Henare can tell members none of these things. But that is what this Government with its friends in coalition has done for the Maori people around the country. 
Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (National—Northcote) 
: 
 It is unbelievable that that speech actually came from Associate Minister of Health Mita Ririnui. It was some sort of incoherent mumble on a range of topics. I heard the word Maori a few times; I did not hear much about health. But that speech was typical of this Government and of where it is at the moment. Government members want to talk about anything but the issues of the day. 
Hon Mita Ririnui 
: And what are the issues? 
Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN 
: I will tell the member what the issues are—and the Government is getting on the wrong side of every single one of them. That is this Government’s big problem. 
We had several hundred people outside the front of Parliament Buildings today protesting against the arrogance of this Government which is going to go against what 83 percent of New Zealanders want—83 percent of the electorate. This Government arrogantly thinks it can walk into people’s homes and tell them how to raise their families. The Government is on the wrong side of that issue. It is on the wrong side of the issue in respect of corrections where the mismanagement has been just appalling. It is also on the wrong side of the issue with regard to 20 free hours’ early childhood education—it has made a big mistake with that one; it has gone down a blind hole and it cannot now back itself out of it. 
The Government is definitely on the wrong side of every argument regarding the health sector in New Zealand at the moment. On 1 July 1.5 million Aucklanders will face not having a community laboratory service—and that is the Government’s fault. The Minister of Health is accountable for that. He has told us that the district health boards are to blame and he is in charge of those district health boards. What was really disappointing about Associate Minister of Health Mita Ririnui’s speech was that he had nothing to say about the problems in Auckland at the moment—nothing at all. The Government is silent on that issue. The Minister of Health and his bozo mate Trevor Mallard—who interjects right the way through—gave a lot of criticism and a lot of flannel but they had not one thing to say about how they will solve this debacle. It is an absolute disgrace. Tony Ryall was right when he said accountability is on the way back and it will come back in with a National Government. This lot has no interest in taking accountability for anything. The Government’s defence on the lab issue is to constantly muddy the waters. It says the issue is everybody else’s fault: it is poor old nice Dr Hutchison’s fault it is Dr Blue’s fault and it is everyone’s fault but that of the hopeless Minister of Health and the Prime Minister who are actually losing control of the situation. They will put anything they can out there to muddy the waters in order to take the public’s eyes of the ball. 
But Government members know they are on to a loser with regard to this issue. They know it because the fact is that the conflicts of interest in this case were clearly clearly stated long ago. Paul Hutchison wrote to the Minister of Health telling him there was a conflict. What did the Minister do? Absolutely nothing. Wayne Brown the Auckland District Health Board chair knew of the inside information that Tony Bierre had. What did he do? Absolutely nothing—it says that in the court judgment which says the problem was not so much what Dr Bierre knew but what the district health boards did not do. Frankly there was abject negligence. The worst part about it is that the Minister of Health never took any steps to find out whether the conflict of interest issue had been resolved—he did not do anything. He knew about it; he had been warned about it. He had been told about it by Dr Hutchison and by many people who had written to him but he did absolutely nothing. 
I agree with the  
New Zealand Herald 
 editorial that people need to take responsibility for this matter. The people who need to take responsibility for it are the chairs of the district health boards—and they are the appointed flunkies of this Government. Who is in charge of those chairs? It is Pete Hodgson. He had nothing to say today about how he will fix this mess—absolutely nothing at all. He said in Parliament that it is the district health boards’ responsibility to fix it but he and the Prime Minister both refuse to express confidence in them. I ask members this if the Minister of Health and the Prime Minister cannot express confidence in the district health board chairs now how on earth do they think those chairs will be able to fix this mess? If they are not confident in those chairs now the chairs should go. 
The Minister of Health needs to get up and say that he will be able to deliver lab services to 1.5 million Aucklanders on 1 July because he has promised that all along. If the Labour Government cannot deliver on that promise it is really time for that Minister to resign. What does it take for a Labour Government Minister to resign? Well I can tell members that Labour Ministers seem to think they are pretty bulletproof. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Throughout that speech by my colleague Mr Shane Jones continually led a barrage of interjections. Although we do not mind interjections we do mind the member coming from way back in the back row where he usually sits to the front bench in order to make those interjections. I think that it states in the Standing Orders that one should not move to a place of advantage in order to interject. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The Standing Orders say several things. One of the considerations is that the member had been sitting there for a while. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I am sorry but I did not actually hear what you said. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member had been sitting in that seat for a while. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: So you are saying— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: No no. The member should go and read his  
Speakers’ Rulings 
 on this matter. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. As a point of clarification are you saying a member can move to a new seat stay there for some time and then it is OK to barrack from that seat? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister for Economic Development) 
: 
 The Speakers’ rulings are relatively consistent over a long period of time. It is a matter of whether the member shifts for the purpose of interjecting. Generally the time that someone has spent in a seat is taken into account. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: So we are allowed to do it? 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: As I said the member needs to refer to several Speakers’ rulings on that—for example Speakers’ ruling 58/3. 
BARBARA STEWART (NZ First) 
: 
 What a debacle we have witnessed over the past few weeks as the Auckland laboratories’ testing shambles has unravelled bit by bit and ever so thoroughly once Justice Asher’s decision was finally made public. This is more than just an embarrassment for the Auckland district health boards; it is a total shambles—it is unprecedented. It demonstrates the absolute folly of having bureaucrats in charge of contract negotiations within the health system a practice that neatly absolves the Minister from direct accountability for outcomes. 
In the case of Labtests Auckland the bureaucrats distracted by the possibility of making big theoretical savings set off in hot pursuit of those savings and basically took their eye off the ball. There was no real guarantee of savings once the dust had even settled and one of the most alarming aspects of this particular situation is that such debacles will continue to occur because health board officials are heavily influenced by funding restraints and that skews their judgment away from patient welfare. 
We have seen lots of examples of this—this is not just an Auckland issue. In fact the very same thing is happening right in my home town of Cambridge where we will soon be down to having one laboratory service for the town and the whole surrounding area rather than the four laboratories we currently have. Even I know that with just one laboratory in Cambridge it will be hard-pressed to cope and many of the elderly in the community will find it very very hard to travel the extra distance necessary to obtain their tests—let alone to find parking when a lab is right in the centre of town. At present those elderly people can actually walk when they desire to do so and can do so. 
I think we need to remember that health services and the testing that goes with health services are essential services. The fiasco we are witnessing in Auckland cannot be allowed to reoccur; accountability has to be restored. The present system we have gives the Minister of Health a “get home free” card whenever questions of accountability rise. That is not right. It is the all care but no responsibility attitude and it is not working. No one in the health system appears to be responsible or accountable for anything and on the very rare occasion that heads do roll they are usually very little heads from way down in the pecking order. 
With reference to the Labtests Auckland issues I can tell members that over the next few months there will have to be a real scramble to ensure that Aucklanders have adequate testing available and this mess will have to be sorted out and unravelled. This is a situation that should never have arisen and should definitely not be allowed to happen again. A conflict of interest was always a possibility; the lines were blurred. It was an accident just waiting to happen. What will we see next? The next most expensive area of conflict between district health boards and health professionals looks likely to be that between district health boards and pharmacists. Again who will be the casualty but the patients. They will have to pay extra when they collect their prescriptions and often it is the elderly who can ill afford the extra money or even the stress involved with this. 
Last year’s round of strikes impacted on all of those people who cannot afford to go privately for medical procedures and any further strikes this year will affect the same people again. All of this makes a really compelling argument in support of the New Zealand First policy of restoring ministerial accountability for health outcomes. That has to happen. The Minister of Health has to be directly accountable for the performance of the health system and for all of those areas under his jurisdiction. Basically the buck has to stop squarely at his door—and the sooner it does that the better. 
MARYAN STREET (Labour) 
: 
Tena koe Madam Speaker. Tena koutou te Whare. On Sunday 1 April there will be some significant policy implementations that will improve the lot of families around New Zealand. 
First of all we will have 4 weeks’ annual leave. It is coming in effective from 1 April but during the course of the following year people will be entitled to 4 weeks’ annual leave. A number of people in New Zealand have 4 weeks’ annual leave so we are trying to look after the most vulnerable workers and make sure that a minimum provision that exists in comparable countries can apply here as well. The second thing that will happen is that there will be the eighth increase in the minimum wage in 8 years and it is the biggest increase yet. There will also be a 5 percent increase in Government superannuation and an extra $10 per week per child in tax credits to families. These are constructive policies that are supportive of young and old families. 
In order to get this kind of constructive policy and phased implementation one requires vision commitment and prudent resourcing. Such policies require careful phasing in notice to all parties affected and leadership that is principled reliable and clear in order to achieve useful outcomes. 
Let us compare that with what is on offer by the National Opposition. We have in John Key a political hobbyist not a potential Prime Minister. While our Prime Minister was out of the country advancing New Zealand’s interests John Key was sounding off in an area about which he patently knew nothing. We can look to the media for reports of people who were present there and who said things about Mr Key’s outburst. For example “Key’s outburst has raised eyebrows among Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade staff travelling with Clark who thought National had decided to take a bipartisan approach to foreign affairs. His comments also angered expatriate business leaders in the US with one saying yesterday he thought Key had made a ‘prat’ of himself with the remarks.” 
Those are not my words but I am not going to contradict them. Let me give another quotation from the  
Press 
 where it was noted: “She”—meaning the Prime Minister—“received support from global fast-food giant McDonald’s yesterday. The company’s vice president for government relations Dick Crauford said Clark’s visit had made a significant impact. ‘Domestic politics in the US are rather difficult … but I must say that the reception of the Prime Minister here by the administration as well as by the Democrats in Congress has been outstanding’ he said.” These are the words of people who were present and of people who were observing. 
Last week Mr Key is reported to have said that he would be asking questions in this House of the Prime Minister regarding what he referred to as “a failure to deliver” on a free-trade agreement. He was quite bullish about that; he promised that he would ask questions in the House and that he would not be silenced on this matter. But where are the questions? There have been no such questions this week. They have not materialised. There has not been one. There has been none. The mouse that roared has now reverted to being just a mouse again. Clearly in the National caucus the greater intellects of Murray McCully and Tim Groser have prevailed and pulled Mr Key back into line. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: What about John Hayes? 
MARYAN STREET 
: I was referring to the greater intellects. Perhaps Mr Key decided to talk to his foreign affairs advisers like Jenny Shipley but perhaps he did so only after he had spoken and not before. 
The questions in the House that were promised have not been forthcoming and the silence has been ringing. Even those who do not vote for Helen Clark recognise her ability in matters of foreign affairs. People know that she is in her element in foreign affairs. Mr Key needs to work much harder on issues of substance if he is to graduate from political hobbyist to potential leader. 
Other people’s assessments of the Prime Minister’s performance include: “The Prime Minister was in top form—knowledgable engaging thorough and unflappable. She impressed audiences wherever she spoke.” and “Key’s most damning claim—that Clark’s trip to Washington was a foreign policy failure—is wide of the mark. In fact it’s an embarrassing indictment of National’s own slippery grasp of foreign affairs.” National has no substance. 
JACQUI DEAN (National—Otago) 
: 
 Gee the rising note of panic in the Government benches is almost palpable. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Is this a member of Parliament? 
JACQUI DEAN 
: I mean for Trevor Mallard the rising note of panic as one goes around the press gallery is almost palpable. There is a reason why. Do members think it is because our excellent new leader John Key is now within 2 percent of the Prime Minister in the preferred Prime Minister stakes? Is that the reason Government members are panicking so much? Maybe it is the fact that hundreds of people turned up outside Parliament to express the view shared by 83 percent of all New Zealanders that they do not want this Government to tell them how to raise their children; they do not want this Government to come into their kitchens and tell them whether they can smack their children for the purpose of correction. Perhaps it is the fact that the so-called 20 hours’ free education scheme for preschoolers has been a disaster. Perhaps it is the fact that the whole corrections ministry is in a state of continual and increasing disaster— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I bet the member wrote this speech herself. 
JACQUI DEAN 
: —or perhaps I say to Mr Mallard it is because the Ministry of Education and the National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) are an unfolding disaster with more and more schools deserting NCEA to go over to the Cambridge exams. 
Maybe it is not that. Maybe it is the fact that the Government’s climate change policies are a disaster. What did I hear my colleague Nick Smith the spokesman for climate change say? Did he just ask: “What climate change policies?” He would be absolutely right because all we have is discussion papers and they are a disaster. 
But that is not the worst of it. That is not the reason why this Government is panicking. It is panicking because of the appalling state of health in New Zealand. Who is accountable for that? It is certainly not the Government if one listened to Government members today. No it is not the Government that is responsible or accountable for the appalling state of health services in New Zealand; it is actually Paul Hutchison—go figure that. 
Let us start from Southland and work north. A group of 45 general practitioners working in Southland have just written to the Southland District Health Board expressing their lack of confidence in the ability of the board to do its job. Why would they do that if the Ministry of Health was doing such a good job? They did that because there are huge delays in Southlanders getting treatment. There is a high level of resignation amongst general practitioners. There is huge pressure for maternity services and elderly care services in Southland. 
Let us move a little bit further north to the Otago District Health Board. We thought things were bad enough in Southland but in the Otago District Health Board we have a decrease in services for the people of Otago because a senior information technology manager has allegedly stolen $16 million from the district health board and nobody noticed. Where is the accountability in that? So the people of Otago and Southland will get less in the way of health care because of the lack of accountability within this Government which lies directly at the feet of the Minister of Health. 
Let us move to Auckland where there is a half-billion-dollar contract to provide services to the people of Auckland. These services are critical to the people of Auckland; it is not a minor matter. If we go through the players in this issue we have the ministry’s special adviser who had free access to all information who attended all the committee meetings of the Auckland District Health Board and who was responsible to Gordon Davies Deputy Director General District Health Board Funding and Performance. So one would think that person would know what was going on. Then we have Dr Tony Bierre the pathologist. He was privy to all the information and was actively involved in setting the terms of the contract for the district health board. While this was happening Graham Aitken was right amongst the affairs of the district health board but what did he see? He saw nothing. Where is the accountability from these Government-appointed people? The chairman of the Auckland District Health Board was right in the middle of this. The chair was a Government appointee with huge experience. What did he know about what was going on with this conflict of interest? He knew absolutely nothing. Where is the accountability? It is certainly not with this Government. 
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour—Waitakere) 
: 
 I have much to say but first I want to say that I have been appalled at the two speeches I have heard just now from Dr Jonathan Coleman a former general practitioner and from Jacqui Dean. 
R Doug Woolerton 
: The cigar smoker! 
LYNNE PILLAY 
: That is right. That did come to mind. I was not going to raise it but I thank the member very much. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Are you talking about Monica? 
LYNNE PILLAY 
: No no but I will say that I find it really really offensive for a former general practitioner to be denigrating this Government for supporting legislation that protects our children. I am proud that this party and this Government put children first. I am also proud of the general practitioners working out there who have been writing to us. We have received emails probably running at 100:1 in favour of this legislation. I acknowledge the hundreds of general practitioners nurses health workers teachers and people from agencies that care for children who have contacted us and said: “We support you in what you are doing. We support this bill.” 
I cannot go past saying that members opposite are gross exaggerators. I saw the sad little crowd outside. There were not hundreds of people in front of Parliament. [ 
Interruption 
] There were not. Once again that is an indication and I am waiting for the next flip-flop—given all the emails that have come through—from National members and for them suddenly to say: “Oops this isn’t the populist way to go. Maybe we had better change our mind again.” That is what National members did in relation to market rents the seabed and foreshore the Employment Relations Act climate change civil unions nuclear policy and tax cuts. 
We have not heard National’s visionary leader speak this afternoon. It would be nice if he could come and tell us a little bit about what he sees the National Party rolling out or about some of its policies. He is very silent on that but we do know about his flip-flops. To be critical and denigrating of the events happening on 1 April this year is just plain dumb. 
I heard reference made to the 20 hours per week free early childhood education. My children are grown up now but when they were young kindergarten which was really really good was all that was available. There was nothing for when I was working a full day. It was very very hard for mothers—generally mothers—to manage quality early childhood education around those times. I congratulate Minister Maharey because I know this was one of his absolute passions. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Minister Maharey? 
LYNNE PILLAY 
: And Minister Mallard. It is of course a given that he has been very passionate about this issue too. It will provide much for families in New Zealand along with paid parental leave and let us not forget 4 weeks’ holiday now for every worker in New Zealand. That was vehemently opposed by the National Party. I do not hear any National members saying: “No no. We supported that.” I commend workers in this country and the union movement who got behind the campaign for 4 weeks’ holiday and made sure it was on the agenda and that workers are going to be enjoying it in the future. They campaigned just as hard to keep 3 weeks’ holiday when the National Government tried to cut workers’ entitlement from 3 weeks to 2 weeks. I think workers in this country are only too aware of what is on the National Party’s agenda for them. 
Also I cannot go past talking about KiwiSaver which is coming up. It will be the most exciting and innovative way to encourage people to save with a lump-sum payment of $1000 going into their account when they join KiwiSaver. It will also help people into their first homes. That is what this Government is about. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 After about 2 years in this place one sort of loses a little bit of faith in what the political process means. One also loses a bit of faith in some of the people who are involved in this process. Outside the Parliament Buildings today stands a crowd of people who are real New Zealanders and who have come along to vent their anger at this institution. But we do not take any notice of it. We just sit in here and do what we think is right and what this House thinks should be the way for New Zealand. Perhaps we need to take a look around and see what is really happening in this world and hear what our people are really saying. It is not good enough to give the answers: “He is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.” or: “I have full confidence in my department but there is always room for improvement.” How many times have we heard those two answers from members on that side of this House over the last year? I am sick of that. The public of New Zealand are sick of that. They want a Government that will govern. There are people out there who have real issues going on in their lives and they need a Government that will stand up and deliver. 
The smacking bill is a great example. It will not solve the problems these members are talking about. If the Government is genuine it should go after the problem and solve it. Government members should not come in here and look for publicity. That is all they are doing; they are just using spin and publicity. All the Labour members’ speeches today have been about 1 April and what will be rolled out. We do not really care what the Government will do on 1 April; we want to know what it is doing today for people who need help. 
Let us look at the Auckland district health boards which are in a real mess. What have we got? We have a Government that is flip-flopping and saying: “It is not our fault. We had nothing to do with it. Let them work it out themselves.” Let us stand up and have some leadership from the Minister of Health. Let us stand up and have some leadership from the Prime Minister. Let her actually go in and say that there has been a stuff-up that something has gone wrong and that the Government is going to go in there and sort it out and do the right thing by the people of Auckland and the district health boards. But no the Government will not do that because it is politically sensitive to do that and it has mates whom it is looking after. That is where one loses faith in this Government and in this institution. At the next election the people will perceive that loss of faith and will punish Labour and the other parties that have stood behind it. The Labour Government will go down. 
It is pretty interesting to see what can happen to some people in their life. Last weekend I did the craziest thing I have done for a while. I went to San Francisco for the weekend because the mother of a friend of mine had just had surgery and basically her prospects were being decided over the next couple of days. When one comes back from a situation like that one realises there are some serious things we should be doing in this House. We have a responsibility here to deliver for people. We need a hospital system that will work. My friend’s mother was at the best hospital in California. It had the best people doing the work there and still it could not save her. We need to give everybody in this country that chance. We cannot afford to have testing or anything like that that does not deliver a first-class service for a first-class country. Our people deserve it. If anybody deserves it New Zealanders deserve it. What makes it worse is that my friend’s mother was from the Labour Party. One can go beyond all the extremes and come back to the realities of this world. 
We want to see a Government that will take some responsibility for the Auckland District Health Board and whose members will go out there and stand up in front of those people today and say what they think. Even if the Government is against what people say we want to see it out there governing this country as a Government should. Labour has a year left in office and if it does not start governing it will lose the next election. National will govern will show respect for the people of New Zealand and will deliver for them. 
The debate having concluded the motion lapsed. 
Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill 
First Reading 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Labour—Palmerston North) 
: 
 I move  
That the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill be now read a first time. 
 At an appropriate time this bill will be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee. I hope the consideration there will allow for people to come in and air their views which is something I will come back to in a moment. 
I note at the beginning of my comments that it is the parliamentary convention that the local MP sponsors bills of this nature through the House. It provides a mechanism whereby people can make sure that legislation is passed from a local point of view. In this case it is the Palmerston North City Council that wants this legislation to be passed and it is my duty to ensure that it is advanced so it can be discussed. 
The bill provides the mechanism for the Palmerton North City Council to sell some specific land if—and I stress the word “if”—it becomes surplus to the council’s requirements. The land—for anybody who is familiar with the city and I know that my colleague Mr Simon Power over there is familiar with it—is on Fitzherbert Avenue which is currently around the bowling club near the girls high school. There is a tennis court there as well. One of the concerns of the tennis club has been that this bill may lead to the sale of the club. I reassure anybody who is listening to this speech that my understanding is that the Palmerton North City Council has met with staff at the tennis club and both they and the city council are comfortable that they have arrived at an understanding that land will not be sold. That part of the discussion is put to one side and we are really talking about any possibility of the bowling club land being sold. 
For physical reference purposes I simply say the land is on the corner of Park Road and Fitzherbert Avenue and it is currently utilised as the Manawatu Bowling Club. Due to the road being widened on the corner of Park Road and Fitzherbert Avenue the club has been relocated from those premises so it is currently not on this land. The land was identified in 2005 as being surplus and the sale was signalled in the council’s long-term community plan. Following majority approval by the city council this year the future use of the land is included in the council’s draft annual plan for 2007-08 which at present is with the community for consultation. 
I make the following point particularly for anybody who may want to contact local members—Mr Power and myself being the obvious members whom people may come to. I am well aware that in the last 24 hours there has been some debate in the city about the bill. It would not normally be my practice to advance a bill if there were any controversy at all to be truthful but my understanding is that this is clearly the resolution of the council by majority. Therefore it is my duty to advance the bill. But I think I should say to people who are listening that the bill will go to the select committee and that is a good time for them to get along and make their views known. I know there are views on both sides of this issue and the select committee is a good place to make them known as well as through the community’s long-term plan process. 
I am sure most people have been to Palmerston North. The previous Mayor of Wellington Mark Blumsky was a frequent visitor to our city and he was always up for new ideas that he could bring back to Wellington and put into place here. People will know that Palmerston North prides itself on being an attractive place to live particularly because of the nature of the city. The city is spread out with a lot of trees gardens and green space. 
Mark Blumsky 
: The windiest city in the world! 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The previous Mayor of Wellington interjects quite rightly. It is a place that prides itself on having a bit of wind like Wellington. But Palmerston North has put its wind to good use as that wind now turns windmills. That is a good idea to take back to Wellington as well. 
To come back to the point I was making earlier the nature of the city with a lot of wide open green spaces needs to be kept in mind in relation to this debate. Just down the road from the land we are debating is Victoria Esplanade. It is a very good example of an old-style esplanade that has been modernised over the years to become one of the best rose gardens in the world. There are lots of good features in that particular area. I say to members who want to weigh up the issues when they are debating this legislation that one of the things I know is that the city council has already made it clear because it has to use funds that come from this kind of sale to enhance the city’s amenities that that is probably where the money would go. The council has already signalled that it would use the money to enhance that area particularly in terms of recreational facilities for people to enjoy and build a new conservatory which would be quite an enhancement to the city. 
There seems to be good purposes behind the intention of the city council at this time which people will need to keep in mind when they are discussing the bill. At the present time though I should stress once again that the bill is simply giving the city council flexibility to make a sale should it go ahead with that. It is out for discussion. It may be that people will convince the council to do something else. But from here on in should a future plan be made that will allow for the sale as the appropriate thing to do the council would not have to come back to Parliament and have that decision made through the House. The bill would simply give the council the ability to make the decision in Palmerston North. 
I am pleased to put this bill before the House on behalf of the Palmerston North City Council. The bill comes at the council’s instigation because of the resolution that was on its books. As I say the next part of this debate—apart from what will take place here—will hopefully have an airing of views before the select committee. 
SIMON POWER (National—Rangitikei) 
: 
 National will support the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill at its first reading. This is in fact the second occasion on which the Hon Steve Maharey and I have been involved in a local bill in quite a short period of time. The first was also not without its controversy. The Manfeild Park Bill caused a few hiccups along the way but we got there in the end. 
When I was written to by the council solicitors I had some concerns about this bill because I was aware of some controversy around its progression particularly in relation to the concerns of those people at the neighbouring tennis club. This land—the corner of Park Road and Fitzherbert Avenue—is what could be described only as a prime spot of land in the Palmerston North area. It is a piece of land that I drive past every Sunday morning when I am taking my little boy to swimming lessons. 
It has to be said that I was sufficiently concerned about these issues to seek a meeting with council solicitors on Friday to have explained to me exactly whether this legislation was as potentially problematic as I had been led to believe. The solicitors advised me that they had received about five phone calls expressing concern since the advertisements relating to the bill had been published. Then I spent some time talking to a council staff member on Friday afternoon and I asked her to email through to me the background information so that I was clear what process had to be followed for this bill. 
The Hon Steve Maharey reflected those conversations in his statements earlier today and it is indeed my understanding that if the land becomes surplus it is the council’s intentions as signalled by certain clauses in the long-term council community plan that any funds realised would be used—as they have to be because it is part reserve—for reserves funding at the local esplanade. The funds would be primarily for a conservatory as I understand it. I have to say as a reasonably regular visitor—certainly every second week when I take my young son down to the esplanade—that any money spent there would be welcomed in the long run. 
But some people are going to be a bit concerned about this bill. The select committee process is the appropriate place to deal with those concerns so that both the promoter of the bill and those of us like Dr Ashraf Choudhary and myself who are familiar with the area will have the opportunity to get feedback from the party members we have on that select committee as to that level of controversy. Indeed Steve Maharey is correct when he says that as the local member it is actually his duty—to some extent—to put forward the bill because he has been requested to do so by the local authority. I see the Hon George Hawkins sitting in the back of the Chamber there. He has had to do similarly with legislation from his local body authority recently which was also not without controversy—although one has to reflect on the fact that that particular legislation was probably a lot more controversial than the one currently being promoted by the Hon Steve Maharey. 
Having said that I tell members that I did ask Diana Everton who is the property officer at the Palmerston North City Council to give me a bit of a written summation of the position. She said on behalf of the council that the reason for the amendment bill is that the Palmerston North City Council currently holds this land but that currently the Palmerston North Reserves Act 1922 prevents the council from selling the land. Who would have thought that? The council wishes to be able to sell the land if it becomes surplus to the council’s requirements thereby requiring an Act of Parliament to overturn the original legislation in respect of just this one piece of land. 
The title which is attached by way of schedule 5 gives a historic record of the background to the particular piece of land. The questions which no doubt were on the minds of the members of the tennis club were about what would happen to that piece of land whose hands it would go into whether it would go into the hands of a developer whether it would be available for further amenities required for council usage and what the downstream effects of its sale would be. We do know that the Palmerston North City Council draft annual plan—as if the council did not have enough to do it is doing more plans—says this about the possible sale of assets: “The Council has a dynamic portfolio with the acquisition of property necessary to serve the community and the sale of surplus property from time to time. Land on the corner of Park Road/Fitzherbert Ave was identified as surplus in 2005 and the sale signalled in the 10 Year Plan. Since then the Council has asked that any sale process for this land allow the opportunity for community use to be considered”. 
So if the land were sold the first port of call would be community use first and foremost. I am sure that Ashraf Choudhary and the Hon Steve Maharey would join me in saying that that would be described as appropriate. A community meeting is also to be held to look at future options as part of that consultation process if this legislation makes it through all three stages. 
The annual draft plan goes on to say of the land’s background: “As this land is reserve land it is proposed”—as Steve Maharey indicated—“that the proceeds received from the sale will be applied to developments at the Esplanade”. It gives by way of example although not by way of limitation the construction of a new conservatory. So the land is not specifically tagged or earmarked for that specific purpose but the plan makes clear that that is the type of thing the council would consider doing with the proceeds of any sale. 
 Other properties identified for sale include land on Pembroke Street in Ashhurst and Nash Street which funnily enough concerns the roadway itself. That will be an interesting one when the Hon Steve Maharey is asked to promote that bill in the House. These properties will then create additional rates revenue and the conclusion to this paragraph states: “Overall the estimated effect on rates is a 0.2 percent reduction in rates.” This is quite an important point given that the current Government is involved in a wide-ranging and reasonably important rates inquiry. So when the rates are next struck by the Palmerston North City Council we will see whether that vision is realised and whether those who live in the Palmerston North City catchment have their rates reduced by 0.2 percent as a result. 
It appears as is often the case with local bills that this is a short and non-controversial matter. But as I indicated earlier some issues do need looking at. I am not sure whether Dr Ashraf Choudhary sits on the Local Government and Environment Committee but maybe the Labour Party would see fit to have him transferred to that committee for the hearing of evidence on this bill so that when the report back comes he will be in a position to enlighten those of us who will not be able to sit on that committee as to the progress of the submission process during the committee’s deliberations. 
This is the first step. Members on this side of the House will listen carefully to submissions and feedback received from the select committee and the local community before supporting the bill further. But the Hon Steve Maharey is dead right—it is his duty to present the bill to the House. At this point in the process we are happy to support him in those endeavours and we will be voting for the passage of this bill at its first reading. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First) 
: 
 New Zealand First will be supporting the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill to the Local Government and Environment Committee and we look forward to the select committee answering a few concerns that we have. I am sure it will not be a problem for the committee to do that. 
We will want to know where the land came from prior to 1922 and whether the Treaty settlement process and those sorts of things have been followed correctly. Those are the sorts of questions we will be asking in the select committee and I am sure the answers will be forthcoming without any worries whatsoever. I am delighted to hear that the council can measure a 0.2 percent reduction in rates. Computers must be a wonderful thing because I am sure prior to that nobody would have sat down all day and measured that percentage. But I am pleased to hear that if the Hon Steve Maharey can bring back a rates reduction to the people of Palmerston North his seat will be secure for many years to come. 
I will not take any more time than that. I just want to signal that New Zealand First will support the bill to the select committee and we look forward to the answers on a couple of small issues. Thank you. 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
Tena koe Mr Speaker. The Green Party will not be supporting this bill. We do not believe it should be called the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill. It should be called the “Hock off Green Space in Palmerston North Bill”. I was born and raised in Palmerston North. I have lived more than half of my life in that city and it is where all my family are. I feel very strongly about the issues around selling off green space in this city. The whole attitude comes from a hangover from the previous mayor and from the previous CEO who has only just left the council. The previous mayor used to call open green space “lazy assets”. That is what he considered it to be—lazy assets. That attitude resulted in two things. Firstly he lost his job and secondly before he managed to lose his job a major area of railway land—a huge green space in the middle of the city—was sold off to the Warehouse which subsequently opened a huge megastore in the middle of this green-space area and turned half of it into a car-park. The current council which consists of largely the same membership as the previous council has continued this anti - green space attitude. The council has already decided to sell off another piece of land out in Kelvin Grove that was set aside as a future recreational area in a part of the city that is undergoing massive and rapid urban development where green space is absolutely crucial to the standard of living expected by people who live in that area and to their well-being. 
The council is now proposing to enable itself to sell off a section of land that is currently a reserve which was formerly used as a bowling club. We have heard about the tennis club which also gets used for petanque and a whole range of other activities. It also has the capacity to be used for all sorts of other kinds of recreational activities in the future. But the council has not bothered to seek proposals publicly for ways that that land can be used as green space and as recreational space for the people of Palmerston North. 
A local developer apparently has already expressed interest in building—would you believe it—another motel on that exact piece of land. Anyone who knows Fitzherbert Avenue knows that we do not need another motel there. The council has already gone through and turned the whole area into nothing but a site for motels and petrol stations. The council chopped down hundreds of decades-old trees which made that area so beautiful so that it would be easier for traffic and the developers to get in and out of the area. Now it wants to take another little piece of what is left of the recreational area for the people who live in that part of the city. 
The council says that it will use this money to fund development of the esplanade—we have heard a bit about that too—which is a major recreational area for Palmerston North. But last year when the council was consulting on the long-term council community plan the largest number of submissions it received were opposed to the changes that the council proposed for the esplanade. The people do not want those changes and now the council is saying it wants to sell off this green space to pay for those changes that people do not want. 
It is true that the council has backed off from some of its worst “hack through native bush and put up a car-park” ideas but it has failed to go back to the community and consult further on a revised plan. The people of Palmerston North do not know what this money will be used for. They do not know whether they will be swapping a piece of recreational area for a good development that will enhance the city or for some other kind of development that they do not support. So we cannot say that the community has had any real involvement in this discussion except to say that the community opposes it. 
Why is the council seeking to sell off this recreational land? The council says it needs to sell off this land because it wants the proceeds of sale to go towards the development of other reserves whether it is the esplanade or elsewhere. Sometimes the council talks about other reserves as well. But frankly that is a failed argument from the start. We do not sell off roads to pay for the maintenance and building of other roads. We do not sell off water pipes to pay for the maintenance and construction of other water pipes. So why would we sell off reserve land which is green space and publicly accessible now only to go and get some more reserve space? We should be encouraging and increasing our reserve land. It is critical to the well-being of communities that live in highly urbanised areas that they have access to green space for recreation and a good state of mind. 
I understand that last night a public meeting was held in Palmerston North and there was almost unanimous opposition to the council’s plan to be able to sell this land. Finally the council was told recently as part of the discussion around this bill that if the bill was brought to the House it could not be withdrawn. Partly on that basis the council considered it to be a fait accompli that this bill would go through so it voted narrowly in support of selling off the land. That is false information. This bill can be withdrawn by the Minister. He did not have to bring it to the House. He has a general duty to do so—I understand that—but he can withdraw the bill. I urge this House to oppose this legislation. The council should not have this power. If this House does not do so I urge the Minister to withdraw this bill and not allow it to proceed to the select committee. 
I am on the select committee that could eventually hear this bill and if it does come to us I will be very interested to hear from the council about its proposed ideas and what kind of consultation it has and has not had with the local community. From my understanding this community does not support the sell-off of this land. It is the community’s recreational public space and it is entitled to it. Community members have for decades been paying for it through their rates and they should be entitled to keep it. The council should not be able to sell it. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
Tena koe ano hoki. Kia ora tatou iteneipo. The Maori Party tests every piece of legislation against our key criteria including the historical context behind any particular item on the Order Paper as well as the question of whether there has been discussion with tangata whenua. Our research tells us that the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill has a long-established record in the parliamentary statutes including references in the  
New Zealand Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) 
 Volumes 196 197 198 347 and 349. We need to turn to these records to understand why the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act needs to be amended. The debates of 5 October 1922 were particularly interesting. The member for Palmerston North a Mr J A Nash introduced the bill saying that he did not think it would be necessary for him to say much in the way of explanation. The remark was then responded to by Mr McLeod the member for Wairarapa: “the difficulty was that precedents were sometimes created by local Bills which afterwards it was found very difficult to get away from in other local Bills.” 
Why would I find these remarks made 85 years ago so interesting? Well when the Maori Party contacted a number of key Rangitane representatives and spokespeople in relation to this bill not one of them had heard of anything to do with it—not one. Indeed no consultation seems to have taken place. It would be fair to say that the sale of land—any land—is an issue that inspires a considerable amount of interest. One would think that this House would be aware of this simple fact. Remember Rangiputa? That is right; that is the land that Ngati Kahu has been in negotiation about for over 23 years—land that they have recently announced will take them back to the Waitangi Tribunal in the pursuit of justice. 
What about Whenuakite? Who would not be aware of the longstanding concerns about Landcorp’s management of its lands and the recent decision of Hauraki Maori to advance their Waitangi Tribunal application to have the lands returned as a part of the Treaty settlement? But there is more: Ngatea farm Taurewa and the threatened sale of Te Kiri Primary School against the wishes of Taranaki hapuNgati Tama a Huroa and Titahi. So it goes on. The selling of council land does not just concern Rangitane. It is also a public issue for the people of Palmerston North. So the Maori Party comes to this bill also wondering exactly what process of public consultation there has been on the sale. 
The description of the bill seems simple enough—the city council holds certain land under the Palmerston North Reserves Act 1922 which prevents the council from selling the land. The apparent problem that this bill seeks to address is that the council wants to be able to sell the land if it becomes surplus to council requirements. What would have been so wrong with taking a little bit of time out to talk first? The thing is that it is not as though Rangitane is not consulted on other matters. We were told that Rangitane is consulted by the council on a large number of issues to do with things such as car parks and culverts but when it comes to the substantive issue of land there has been absolutely none. 
I remind the House of the historic precedent established in the 1987 Court of Appeal case  
New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney-General 
: “the duty of the Crown is not merely passive but extends to active protection of Maori people in the use of their lands and waters to the fullest extent practicable.” It is about having a say; it is about being involved. Section 4 of the Local Government Act 2002 places a very clear requirement for consultation with mana whenua: “In order to recognise and respect the Crown’s responsibility to take appropriate account of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and to maintain and improve opportunities for Maori to contribute to local government decision-making processes Parts 2 and 6 provide principles and requirements for local authorities that are intended to facilitate participation by Maori in local authority decision-making processes.” It is about understanding the matters of importance to iwi within the context of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. 
Although our discussions with Rangitane representatives have been relatively rushed we have still managed to uncover some information that seems pretty critical to this bill in terms of the council divesting itself of the inner-city property. During our process of consultation about this bill we were told by iwi members that they remembered their grandparents saying that the land between the Manawatu River and Ferguson Street of which the land in question is a part had never been legitimately acquired from Rangitane. The plot thickened when we learnt that any records to prove this have long been destroyed by fire. The warning bells rang out when we thought back to another private bill the Manfeild Park Bill which was referred to by Mr Power involving whenua Maori that had also suffered the curious fate of its archival records being destroyed by a parliamentary fire. 
We in the Maori Party will be voting against this bill. We simply cannot vote in favour of a bill about which there seems to have been no consultation with the people who will be affected. We bring the concerns of Rangitane to this House along with their interest in how the council acquired the land in the first place and suggest that this is an opportune time for the local member and the city council to meet with Rangitane. Our member for Te Tai Hauauru Tariana Turia is happy to be part of those discussions. Rangitane are adamantly opposed to the selling of any Rangitane land or possible Rangitane land believing as we do that public land should not be able to be sold off without consultation with and the consent of the mana whenua. 
I conclude by sharing a case study of a recent situation in Palmerston North that Rangitane has cited amongst the poor examples of consultation with mana whenua. An Australian company in partnership with the Palmerston North City Council has established a project to erect wind turbines on local sites but with no consultation with Rangitane. The turbines are to be established on the Kaihinu range—ironically named after the tupuna of Rangitane. Just last week a commission of inquiry was convened between the Palmerston North City Council and the Australian company on one side and a number of community groups private landowners and whanau on the other—those who dwell at the bottom of the Tararua Ranges. It was not opposition to the development of energy alternatives that resulted in the inquiry; the key objection was in light of the fact that some of the wind turbines are starting to be sited on private properties and that therefore there needs to be consultation. Rangitane want to be consulted with and not shut out of the process. The Maori Party simply asks what is wrong with that. The Maori Party asks the local member to remember and consider the special obligation that local authorities have to consult with tangata whenua about such proposals. 
Consultation is not to occur simply as an end in itself but more as a way of taking into account the relevant Treaty principles. In determining the basis for such consultation one cannot go very far without recalling the principle of partnership in achieving sustainable management. Consultation also assists local authorities in understanding how to give effect to the Treaty principle of active protection of the Maori people and the use of their lands and waters. I know that for some members of this House the obligations on decision makers to recognise and provide for the relationship of Maori and their culture and traditions with the ancestral lands water sites wahi tapu and other taonga are well-established principles of practice. But unfortunately what we have seen of the Government over the last 18 months has proven that it has lost any capacity to understand and to demonstrate the ethic of stewardship the exercise of guardianship or the recognition of mana whenua status. 
Labour MPs including the Maori members have willingly chosen to vote to delete references to the principles of the Treaty from legislation. They did not raise a murmur about the intention to delete Treaty references from the school curriculum and they have diluted Treaty references in health specifications. So what gives us any confidence that the situation will be any different in the case of the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Bill? We in the Maori Party will continue to call for wider consideration of the application of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the provisions within the Local Government Act to achieve active protection partnership and consultation with tangata whenua. 
Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour) 
: 
Wa’alaikum salaam. I rise to support the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill. I have had the privilege of living in Palmerston North for 30-odd years. In fact among all the members here in Parliament I have lived closest to the land which is on the corner of Fitzherbert Avenue and Park Road. That bowling club area is very well known to me because I travelled by that place almost every day when taking my children to school and travelling to the city from my house. 
I support this bill which is supported by the local member and also by Simon Power who lives in Palmerston North City. I concur with both of them. They have explained the history behind this bill and the need for the city council to be able to sell this land to the right group of people if it has to. I heard what the Maori Party member mentioned. I am quite clear that there will be an opportunity for Rangitane for whom I have a lot of respect—I worked with them for a number of years—along with other groups to make a submission to the select committee and have the opportunity to be heard. In the meantime I am delighted to support this bill because it gives flexibility to the Palmerston North City Council to determine the future of this land and I am sure it will make good use of it. 
NATHAN GUY (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not think that Mr Steve Maharey will take his right of reply so I seek leave for our speaker to take a short call please. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill be now read a first time. 
Ayes 109 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 7; United Future 3; Progressive 1; Independent: Field. 
Noes 10 
Green Party 6; Maori Party 4. 
Bill read a first time. 
Bill referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee. 
Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill 
In Committee 
Debate resumed from 14 March. 
Clause 2A Principal Act amended 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 The point is that we are writing the Crimes Act here. We are not writing a parenting manual or the policy for Child Youth and Family the Plunket Society or Barnardos. We are not rewriting the SKIP programme and we are not rewriting some page out of the  
New Zealand Woman’s Weekly 
. We are actually writing the law here. 
The Crimes Act is full of matters called justification and excuse and section 59 is one of them. It fits in with such matters of justification and excuse like self-defence or the defence of another the law around provocation the law around necessity the protection of property and the right to eject people from one’s property on trespass. It all comes out of the same box. It all has to define an extreme of where the law will allow one to go when using force on another person. As abhorrent as that may seem to be and as accused as I am by those on the other side of this debate of trying to define a justification for parents to smack their kids just so far or assault them or beat them or whatever expletive they want to use that is what the law does when one is writing matters of justification and excuse. 
The reason for section 59 is that the law recognises and has for generations that parenting is a hard job—it is a damned hard job. So the law cuts parents some slack. It says that parents under stress may use force but they can use force only if it is reasonable in the circumstances. We are not saying it is good or bad we are not saying good parents smack and bad parents do not we are just saying that parents do. We will allow them to use reasonable force which is reasonable in the circumstances. The law cuts parents that much slack it makes that accommodation for parents because parenting is a real hard job and parents are under pressure. It is just as the Prime Minister recognised when she was asked by Bob McCroskey on Radio Rhema some time before the election; she said exactly the same thing. The trouble is of course that she said on that occasion that she would not be voting to prohibit smacking and that is exactly what she is doing now. 
The Labour Party the Greens and everybody else who is voting for this bill will remove that accommodation for parents under pressure which has existed for generation upon generation. Helen Clark says that this bill will protect every child against being thrashed bashed thumped and belted. Well it will not. People on both sides of the debate admitted all the way through the select committee process that the bill will not protect those children. But now all of a sudden just because the Prime Minister says it will protect them what do you know everyone else says it will too. Well 83 percent of New Zealanders out there know very well that it will not protect them. When Helen Clark talks about those of us who are suggesting an amendment in this case to allow parents to use reasonable force she says that we want parents who bash thrash beat and thump their children to be able to justify it. I say to her that when it comes to being a parent she would not know what day it is. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 Kia ora. I want to take just a brief call and also reiterate what my colleague Mr Chester Borrows said. I have been a parent for some years. We have five children and on the odd occasion yes we have smacked our children. I take deep offence at what the Prime Minister said this morning in  
the New Zealand Herald 
. I am neither a basher nor an abuser of my children and I regard what she said as a slight on all good parents of this nation. 
This bill has nothing to do with protecting kids from abuse. There are ample laws in our statutes now that protect children from abuse as my colleague Chester Borrows has just said. We are not writing a Child Youth and Family policy a child policy or a child welfare policy; we are actually involved in rewriting the Crimes Act. If we are doing that then let us stick to the issues. 
What does this bill do? Does it make people with a guilty conscience feel better? Most probably it does. What does it really do? Will it stop the sort of abuse that we see around this nation? It absolutely will not. What it will do is to marginalise between 80 and 85 percent of the nation’s good parents—good parents who only want to get on with raising their children and making sure they have a shelter over their head have clothes for their body and are loved. What more could anyone ask for? 
R Doug Woolerton 
: Smack it into them mate! 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: That is Doug Woolerton. Poor old Doug. He is on his way out so he has to have some sort of valedictory speech— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The member has been here long enough to know that he cannot refer to members by one name. It must be by the member’s full name. I refer to Speakers’ rulings 26/6 and 26/7. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Thank you Mr Chairman; I am just back from a 6-year sabbatical. Mr Doug Woolerton is on his last legs. But I digress. This is a serious matter but Doug Woolerton does not see it like that. He wants to criminalise most of the parents in this good nation of ours. He wants to line them up. I will tell members this: the day this bill passes—if it passes—I make a vow to go down to the police station and confess that I have smacked my children. I have smacked my children—well whoop-de-do! They are not in jail; they are actually good responsible kids. 
All that people who support this bill want to do is to criminalise parents. That is all they will do even if— 
Hon George Hawkins 
: Rubbish! 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Oh yeah—well it is a long time since old George Hawkins had some children to look after. But that is OK. This bill is all about a criminal act. It is about using force as a defence. If those who support it are saying that they want to be the parents of our children then they should come out and say that. But then they can look after my kids clothe them send them to whichever school they decide on and have all the responsibility of doing that. If they are not going to take on that responsibility they should not tell me or the many other good parents in this nation how we should run our lives at home and how we should bring up our kids. 
In the  
New Zealand Herald 
 this morning the Prime Minister had the audacity to actually accuse the majority of parents in this nation of being abusers and bashers. That is beyond belief. That will be the Government’s Waterloo. Every Government has a Waterloo and that will be this Government’s Waterloo. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Before I call the next member I just say that I have been fairly tolerant with speakers. We are actually debating clause 2A. I have given members some latitude on that and members’ previous speeches have been pretty wide ranging. But I ask members if they can please to try to debate what the clause states. I know it is not an easy clause; I understand that. The real issues of the bill are in clauses 3 and thereon in. But clause 2A is a really narrow one. I suggest that members ask themselves for instance whether the bill should amend the Crimes Act or whether this is the right bill to do that with. They really need to relate their speech to what is in the clause. I know that is not easy but the real meat is in other clauses. 
GORDON COPELAND (United Future) 
: 
 As you have correctly pointed out Mr Chairman clause 2A of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill states that the bill amends the Crimes Act 1961. Therefore I think it is highly relevant to this debate to determine what the Crimes Act 1961 actually states in relation to smacking a child. If we are to amend the Act then by definition we are changing what is currently in it to something else. I particularly want to challenge the remarks made by the member Russell Fairbrother by the Prime Minister the Rt Hon Helen Clark and by the sponsor of the bill Sue Bradford that smacking has always been illegal in New Zealand. To me those comments display a complete ignorance of what the Crimes Act at present states in relation to smacking. What it states is that the parent of a child is justified in using force by way of correction towards the child if the force used is reasonable in the circumstances. Let us take a situation of a child receiving a light smack—one light smack with the hand. Is that a crime in New Zealand at the moment? 
Hon Members 
: Yes it is! 
GORDON COPELAND 
: No it is not. I will go to the Crimes Act which is what we are debating. The Act defines the word “justified” as follows: “ ‘Justified’ in relation to any person means not guilty of an offence”—not guilty of an offence—“and not liable to any civil proceeding:” if the force used is reasonable. I want to ask a question of those who have just barracked in a prepared sort of way that one smack by the hand is already illegal. Since the Crimes Act 1961 was brought into being from that day to this—[ 
Interruption 
] My point is relevant to the amendment to the Crimes Act 1961 Mr Chairman. I am within the Standing Orders on this I am absolutely sure. I want to ask those members how many parents who have smacked their child once have been prosecuted and found guilty in the courts of New Zealand. I will tell them the answer: not one single person. On that note I rest my case and challenge the member in the chair Sue Bradford to tell me otherwise. Can she tell me where and when the parent of any child who has been smacked like that has been found guilty of a crime. The member is saying that smacking at the moment is a crime; I am saying very definitely that it is not a crime. 
SUE BRADFORD (Green) 
: 
 I would like to take a brief call to make a direct response to Mr Copeland. Of course as far as I know there has never been a conviction or a prosecution of someone once lightly smacking a child. That is simply because we have the defence of reasonable force under section 59 of the Crimes Act which is for the purpose of correction. It is this section this bill seeks to repeal. The problem is that at the moment we have cases where people who severely beat their children escape conviction in court under section 59 of the Crimes Act. The whole point is that this bill is not an anti-smacking bill; it is an anti-beating bill. Under section 194 of the Crimes Act an assault on children under 14 is against the law. The situation in this country is that we have this defence of reasonable force which allows people to get away with quite seriously assaulting their children. Thank you. 
Dr WAYNE MAPP (National—North Shore) 
: 
 I want to record in somewhat general terms my objection to Sue Bradford’s Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill because she is amending the Crimes Act to make normal parental behaviour criminal. That is her intention. It does no good for her to say that all she is doing is removing a defence so therefore smacking is already illegal. That is simply not true. If one has a statutory defence one’s actions are protected. No crime is committed; there is not a criminal offence. How much plainer can one get the situation than that? If we take away section 59 we create a criminal offence—and that is what Sue Bradford is doing. 
The last intervention made by Sue Bradford was really remarkable because certainly it seemed to me and my colleagues that Sue Bradford was actually making an argument for members to vote for Chester Borrows’ amendment. Sue Bradford at various times has come and gone a bit on that issue. I appreciate that she is now saying no but at an earlier stage she said she did not want to criminalise ordinary parental behaviour—amend the Crimes Act as is stated by clause 2A to criminalise ordinary parental behaviour—even though that is exactly what she is doing. 
I have asked people in my electorate by a scientific random opinion poll for their view on this issue. 
Jill Pettis 
: Well that’s an oxymoron—“scientific random”! 
Dr WAYNE MAPP 
: I can tell members on the Government side of the Chamber and other members of this Committee that over 80 percent said they do not want normal parental behaviour to be criminalised. That is in fact entirely consistent with all the current opinion polls so that proves the accuracy of my method. I actually asked a second question because I thought it was important that we know more than that. My second question was: “Do you think that the use of implements should be eliminated?”. We have all heard about the cases involving jug cords pieces of timber and so forth and there have been some problems with regard to that issue—we all know that. The public was also clear on that matter. Eighty percent do want implements to be eliminated. So effectively 80 percent of the population are saying that Chester Borrows is right—and Sue Bradford’s intervention effectively admited that. 
One of the purposes of the criminal law is to make criminal conduct certain one way or tother—something is either a crime or not a crime. People should not have to rely on police discretion determining whether their behaviour is criminal. If we allow this bill to go through we are abandoning our responsibility as legislators in favour of the police exercising their discretion. That is an abandonment of our responsibilities. Good parents should not have to rely on police discretion. Good parents should be able to understand the law and say that either their conduct fits within it or it does not in some cases perhaps. That is the role of legislators—to provide certainty to our society. 
The proposal made by Sue Bradford to amend the Crimes Act will criminalise normal parental behaviour and that is why it is simply wrong for us to be legislating in this way. There is a deep anger in the community. There is deep anger in the community firstly about the way that this Government is ignoring the heartfelt views of New Zealanders. But it goes further than that. Secondly people in the community are asking the Government and Sue Bradford why they are potentially making them criminals why they are asking them to become dependent on police discretion and why they are making the law less certain so that ordinary parental behaviour becomes criminal behaviour. 
The Prime Minister herself was confused on this whole issue as well. She said this bill was aimed only at those people who beat their children. That is wrong and she knows it is wrong. We have proved that in this Chamber by quoting her own words back to her. I say that Government members should read what the Prime Minister has said and vote for Mr Borrows’ amendment. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: In the hope that someone will be relevant to the clause I will call the next speaker. But I want members to try to debate clause 2A. We are not actually doing that at the moment. 
JILL PETTIS (Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I will be very very specific about what this particular clause 2A does. It amends the Crimes Act. I have looked at the Crimes Act to see what that Act—especially as it relates to section 59—is intended to do. Its intention is good and honourable. The Crimes Act states that hitting somebody is wrong. If we go and beat up people in the street hit them in the pub or wherever else that is a crime. I am pleased that that is a crime and that nobody in this Committee would support doing it. 
But if we look at section 59 of the Crimes Act we see that it provides a reasonable defence for parents who may have used what would not be acceptable in another situation. For example I would not accept any other parent giving my child even a slight smack. That is not that person’s role it is not his or her function and I do not want other parents or anybody else doing it. But section 59 provides a defence for a parent who may have done so. 
Some of the hysteria that has been whipped up around this issue comes from the view that every time a parent smacks his or her child the parent will be taken off to jail by the police and charged. I think that view is wrong but the sponsor of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill Sue Bradford needs to think about some cases that I think would be of grave concern to most New Zealanders. 
The first case is in matrimonial property dispute area. I have had experience in this as a constituent member of Parliament and I am sure that Sue Bradford may have had the same experience. When a marriage is breaking up we hear some outrageous claims being made such as the wife claiming that the husband has sexually abused the children. That is a big call and if it was true it would be worthwhile claiming that. But in some cases it is just a matter of one parent trying to get back at the other parent by stopping that parent getting custody of the kids. 
I look at the Crimes Act 1961 and I think that surely if we make it a crime to smack children as the removal of this defence will do then when it comes time for a matrimonial break-up it will be really easy for someone to win the matrimonial settlement. A parent might just tell the truth and say that the husband for instance hit the children. He might have given them the gentle smack that we have talked about. It might have been agreed by both parents that it is good to teach the children the proper way to behave and to teach them right and wrong. But now we see the difference. The husband will have to fess up. The judge might even ask the children whether Daddy gave them a smack. The kids will innocently say that he did and because the section 59 defence is removed the husband will then be a criminal and that could impact heavily on his ability to get custody or all sorts of other things. So there is a situation under this legislation that we will immediately be exposing people to whereas in the past parents could say that they smacked a child that they did it properly and that their spouse did it as well or that both parents had agreed that it was teaching their child boundaries. 
Then we get into the other sorts of disputes that members of Parliament are brokering all the time—disputes about neighbours. I mean how better to get at our neighbour who has a noisy dog or who has a driveway that goes past our house than to try to make him or her a criminal? I have actually thought about the Crimes Act 1961 and I say that with this amendment we could make people criminals if we want to get at them for any of those things. Because section 59 will no longer be a defence we can deal to our neighbours by saying that we saw them hit the kids or smack a child. We can say that we saw them smack a child. 
Jill Pettis 
: Relevance. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No that is terribly relevant. Jill Pettis who is normally at elocution lessons on a Wednesday is going on about relevance. Well I tell the member to go back to her elocution lessons because they are not working. I also tell her that I think it is highly relevant that good ordinary parents could in the course of their normal lives be made criminals. 
None of us in this Committee are supporting any legislation that would allow people to use implements tools or weapons. Chester Borrows’ amendment takes care of all of that. Anybody who beats their kids should be prosecuted; I agree with that. Anybody who uses weapons or implements or who leaves marks draws blood or cuts their children should be dealt to. But what Chester Borrows is saying—what actually Sue Bradford has on a number of occasions defended and what the Prime Minister has said she would never want to outlaw—is that parents should be able to use their right with a gentle smack to teach their young children right and wrong. But when it comes to this bill and Chester Borrows’ amendment to the Crimes Act 1961—oh no! That amendment from Chester Borrows even according to Sue Bradford—here is how genuine she must be—would get her 90 percent of what she is looking for. That would give Sue Bradford a 90 percent chance of saving kids. It would stop all of the abuse and so on. But what will she do if she gets 90 percent of what she is looking for? Nothing—if she does not get 100 percent of what she wants she will spit the dummy and throw the bill out. That shows that she does not care genuinely about kids because getting 90 percent of what she wants would be a hell of a lot better than just throwing the bill out and walking away. 
DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
NATHAN GUY (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. National has a lot of speakers wishing to take a call on this clause. The amendment of the Crimes Act 1961 is extremely important to us and I would like you to consider ruling accordingly and hearing the rest of our speakers please. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I refer the member to Speakers’ ruling 60/7 which states that the chairperson is the sole judge as to whether a closure is accepted. I also refer the member to Standing Orders 138 and 137(3). I am not going to accept the closure yet; I am going to accept the next speaker the honourable member Rodney Hide. 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 We are debating clause 2A of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. I want to pick up on the points that my colleague the Hon Maurice Williamson has been making about a real case that already exists in New Zealand. 
But first of all I make this point. We are seeing a complete trampling of Parliament here with this bill because this is quite properly a conscience vote issue. We see every political party bar one is having a conscience vote. We see the Greens; I know the Green MPs can vote as they choose and they all choose to support Sue Bradford’s bill. I think that Parliament and the public of New Zealand can appreciate that. We see the ACT party— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: Is the member coming to the clause? 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I know I am coming to the clause—this is a vote; I want to explain that vote then I will get on to the point. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: It is a very narrow clause. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: It is a very narrow clause but we are adjusting the Crimes Act in a way that will criminalise the parents of New Zealand and we are doing so in a way that is undemocratic and unparliamentary. If the Labour Party and the Prime Minister allowed members to vote as their conscience dictated this clause would not go through. The great National Party has MPs voting for the bill—that is fine; that is how a proper democratic party should operate. It is proud to let its MPs vote as their conscience dictates. If we go over to the Labour side of the Committee George Hawkins wants to vote against this clause. 
Hon George Hawkins 
: No I don’t. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: He wants to vote against this clause but he is not allowed. Clayton Cosgrove wants to vote against this clause but he is not allowed. Dover Samuels wants to vote against this clause but he is not allowed. If we had a free vote then I could accept the result and so could the people of New Zealand. But we are not allowed one. Whose conscience is it that is determining this result? 
Hon Members 
: Helen Clark’s. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Helen Clark’s conscience rides over her own caucus. What a pack of voting ciphers! 
I want to tell members about one case that I have been familiar with for many many years as a constituent MP. It goes like this. A man was observed smacking his child in the street probably 11 or 12 years ago. A person reported his smacking his child to Child Youth and Family. People from Child Youth and Family turned up and interviewed him. It so happens that this man is a good friend of mine. He is a professional man and is very very successful. He is also—I guess what we would describe as—a fundamental Christian. He explained when Child Youth and Family told him— 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Oh he couldn’t have done it then. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Well David Cunliffe wants to be a smart alec. Child Youth and Family explained to him that he should not smack his child. He said that he was the father and he would smack his child. As a result of that proceedings were instigated against the man and he lost his three kids to Child Youth and Family. They were taken off him and his wife. 
It gets worse. A psychologist then said to the wife that the best way to get her kids back was to leave the husband because he was the problem. She left the husband to try to get the kids back and still could not get them back because of the smacking. I promise you Mr Chairman that this bill will make that a fait accompli. This is what then happened in the case. The children went through foster home after foster home where they were physically abused—they were bruised and they were beaten. 
Hon Members 
: Oh! 
RODNEY HIDE 
: “Oh well. This isn’t relevant.” the Labour members say. They do not want to hear the truth. The man finally got his children back after 7 years and after spending $400000 through the courts. 
Hon Member 
: That’s under the present law. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: That is under the present law. What I am saying is this legislation will make that a fact of life. People smacking their children will be committing a criminal offence. That is what clause 2A does. 
What do we hear from the promoter of the bill Sue Bradford? We hear: “Don’t worry the police won’t prosecute.” Excuse me? We live in a country where there is a rule of law where this Parliament makes a law and it is the police’s job to implement it—they do not get a choice about which law they apply and which they do not. So what will happen is that when there is a complaint—and we have already seen this from the police—they will investigate. What this legislation does is make me as a parent a criminal. 
KATE WILKINSON (National) 
: 
 Thank you for allowing me to take this call Mr Chairman. I will try as much as possible to confine my debate to clause 2A which is a part of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill that amends the Crimes Act—that criminalises good parents and that makes a judgment call that this Government knows parenting skills better than parents themselves do and that if one does not toe the line one will be committing an offence against the Crimes Act. With this amendment good parents will be turned into criminals under the Crimes Act. Under the Crimes Act it is the crime of assault to apply or attempt to apply “force to the person of another directly or indirectly or threatening by any act or gesture to apply such force to the person of another if the person making the threat has or causes the other to believe on reasonable grounds that he has present ability to effect his purpose”. That is the definition of assault. A mere touching is defined as assault under the Crimes Act. A pat on the bottom is assault or can be assault under the Crimes Act. The brushing of some part of a person’s body can be assault under the Crimes Act. 
Assault does not depend on the level of harm; harm can be great or minor. Assault is not just thrashing and bashing; good parents will be guilty of assault if they lightly smack their children on the bottom—that is the fact of it. We have the Prime Minister of this country saying: “We’re not going to have thousands of mums and dads lined up in court because a hand happened to come into contact with a bottom.” Well that will not be the case because they will be lined up in court they will be criminalised and they will be charged with assault under the Crimes Act 1961. 
The Crimes Act as it currently stands as we know provides a defence in section 59 where reasonable force is used by way of correction towards a child. That is a question of fact—what is reasonable and what is not. That is what the few cases relating to this section have determined whether that determination was by a judge or by a jury. 
This matter has been sensationalised. We have heard about the case of the riding crop—a riding crop that was the thickness of a little finger which was used against a 12-year-old boy who was bigger than his mother was out of control and was about to hit his stepfather around the head with a baseball bat. 
Hon Member 
: With a what? 
KATE WILKINSON 
: With a baseball bat. He was about to— 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: It is a very narrow clause. 
KATE WILKINSON 
: Thank you Mr Chairman. A jury of 12 reasonable ordinary New Zealanders decided that that was reasonable and not a crime under the Crimes Act. This bill removes that defence under the Crimes Act and replaces it with a justification in using reasonable force for other than the purpose of correction. Under this bill one can use reasonable force to prevent harm criminal activity and offensive or disruptive behaviour. That is ridiculous because proposed new section 59(2) inserted by clause 4 overrides that by the provision that nothing justifies the use of force for the purposes of correction. It makes a total nonsense to say that we can use reasonable force to prevent our children from being disruptive or offensive but not use it as a corrective measure to prevent our children from being disruptive or offensive. 
So what does this bill do? On the one hand it appears to confer a defence in one clause but on the other hand it takes that defence away completely in the next clause. That is ludicrous and I suspect that this will be fertile litigation material for lawyers—which is the last thing any reasonable parent wants the last thing any child needs or wants and the last thing any family wants. 
By amending the Crimes Act under this clause in the manner contemplated by this bill we are making more criminals. We are making criminals of good parents who are trying to bring up their children to be responsible caring members of our society. It will be difficult enough for those children to grow up into responsible citizens if they know that their parents have just been turned into criminals. Thrashing bashing and beating are not OK. This bill however will create another mischief—that of criminalising parents. This bill is a disaster. It is a sticking plaster on the sore but the sore remains. Yes we have a mischief of child abuse and domestic violence and yes we need to deal with it. 
Hon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: It is my duty to keep within the Standing Orders. After all these are the rules that have been crafted for well over a century of parliamentary practice in New Zealand and it is my duty to ensure that they are upheld. I have been very tolerant; this is a very narrow clause and I can see that members are keen to get into the substance of the bill so I am going to accept the motion. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 62 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly Woolerton); Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; Progressive 1 
Noes 59 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 5 (Brown Mark Paraone Peters Stewart); United Future 3; ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Field 
Motion agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 2A be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly Woolerton); Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 1 (Dunne); Progressive 1 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 5 (Brown Mark Paraone Peters Stewart); United Future 2 (Copeland Turner); ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Field 
Clause 2A agreed to. 
Clause 3 Purpose 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I wonder whether you can just confirm for those of us gathered here the advice given to this Parliament by your colleague Ann Hartley when we commenced debate on the Committee stage that clauses 3 and 4 would have wide-ranging debates and that members would be given leniency to be able to debate them widely. 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: I tell the member that clause 3 is the purpose clause and members may debate right over it—it is a very wide clause. So the member is perfectly correct. 
SUE BRADFORD (Green) 
: 
 I would like to take a call because we are finally getting to the very heart of my bill. The purpose of what we are trying to achieve here as amended by the Justice and Electoral Committee is to make better provision for children to live in a safe and secure environment free from violence by abolishing the use of parental force for the purpose of correction. This bill is all about putting children first. 
I would like to refer briefly to some comments made by Judith Collins in the debate just a little while ago on clause 2A. She said: “This bill should be about what is in the best interests of children.” and went on to say: “I heard the most appalling suggestions tonight from Labour Party members that we … should have a voice for children here in Parliament.” What a disgraceful statement from a National member. This bill is all about giving a voice to children in this Parliament. For far too long the voices and interests of babies children and young people have been denied in this place of power. Nearly 20 years ago we got rid of the defence under section 59 of the Crimes Act that had allowed our children for generations to be beaten in our schools. That was a tremendously progressive step but I still cannot understand why this part of the Crimes Act was not got rid of at that time. It was sadly— 
Hon Chris Carter 
: An omission. 
SUE BRADFORD 
:—an omission on the part of the then Government if I may say so. But at least we are finally reaching the point in this Parliament where children’s interests can be represented. 
Section 59 of the Crimes Act as it is currently framed gives parents the right to beat their children in the most appalling ways as we have seen over and over again in court cases. This is an anti-beating bill not an anti-smacking bill. Section 59 of the Crimes Act provides less protection for children than we provide for adults in this country and I think that it is disgraceful that we continue with that—that anyone should think that our babies and children who are smaller more vulnerable less mature and know less about the world than us should somehow be obliged to endure this ongoing culture of violence against them in a way that we do not permit adults to endure. 
Hon Chris Carter 
: Less protection than a dog. 
SUE BRADFORD 
: Yes. This whole culture of violence against children is something that has brought us into international disrepute. We have had United Nations reports—and most recently the Unicef Innocenti report—describing how one of the worst aspects of the way in which we treat children in this country is that we simply do not respect them We do not value them. I think this is part of the unfortunate and ugly side of our culture that those of us who are Pakeha have inherited from our settler ancestors who came here in the 19th century with the law and mores of Victorian England. Some of our ancestors brought with them unfortunately a culture and law that said that women wives servants and children were the property of the master the man and the husband. With that attitude came a law that said it was OK to beat the wife the servants and the children. 
We have got rid of those laws. We used to have them but we have got rid of the laws that allowed the husband to beat the wife. We got rid of the laws that said it was OK for a master to beat a servant or an employer to beat an employee. But the relic of those laws is section 59 of the Crimes Act which allows all of us as parents to beat our children in the name of child discipline. What a disgrace! It is time we got rid of this section and I am hoping that that will happen extremely soon. 
Beyond that there has been much research done here and overseas that shows in fact that physical discipline is the most ineffective way of trying to bring up our children. To humiliate children—to beat them—has exactly the opposite effect of what we might be aiming to achieve if we are trying to bring up children to be proactive and to have self-respect—children who have self-sufficiency pride in themselves and hope for the future. The research that we have seen over and over again is that in fact the most negative outcomes come from children brought up in a family home filled with violence. They are the ones who are most likely to end up with mental health problems and addictions to turn to crime and to leave school too soon. Those sorts of children are most often the product of violent homes not of peaceful loving homes where violence is not used as a source of child discipline. 
Before I finish on this overarching purpose clause I would just like to say that some of the criticism levelled against this bill has been from people who say that somehow we say this bill will solve all the issues of violence and abuse of our children. Of course that is not the case—I have never pretended that that was the case—but it is one small step in trying to reduce the level of violence against kids in this country. I find it amazing that every time we have a case such as the death of the Kahui twins the death of James Whakaruru and all of those other dreadful incidents some of those who oppose this bill are the first to ask why Child Youth and Family or the police did not take more action. Yet this is about trying to reduce that. This bill will not solve it but we need somehow to turn the mind-set of New Zealanders from saying that it is OK to beat our children. That we legalise the beating of children in this country is in the end what leads to a culture that has child deaths occur and child injuries show up every day in our hospitals. 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 The public of New Zealand are hanging on this debate. We are making history here today. Those who come here fighting to protect the rights and relationships of parents and children are fighting not in the best interests of parents although it achieves this but in the best interests of children not to have their parents liable to prosecution because of a smack. Those who approach this from a philosophical approach have the wrong end of the stick because everything they seek to achieve here will never occur. 
Some seek political branding through this bill. Well it is not a chance to brand oneself for election purposes. It is about children their parents and their relationships. It is not about political branding. Then there are the fence-sitters. Some of them will be out of Parliament at the next election. One day they will be asked by their grandchildren: “So what did you do in Parliament Grandad?”. 
Jill Pettis 
: Not much. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: Jill Pettis is right in her case. 
All they will be able to say is: “I kept my head down and when I had the chance to make a difference I sat on my hands.” How will history paint the future of those people in this place? Being a member of Parliament is a huge privilege denied to many and granted to only a few. In being elected to this Parliament an MP is not sent here to sit on his or her hands. Those of us who are elected to Parliament are sent here to do something. People believe in us as MPs. They have made their selection based on an assessment as to who best represents their beliefs. Nobody came to this Parliament to sit on his or her hands. I ask those members how history will paint them in this matter. 
The only issue directly addressed by this bill is whether parents who smack their children should be liable for prosecution. The next question is: if a protection from prosecution should exist should it be in the law or should it be in practice? The proponents of this bill say that we should leave it to the police and to Child Youth and Family. But the police say “Don’t leave it to us.” At the Justice and Electoral Committee Assistant Commissioner of Police Peter Marshall asked whether we really want to leave lawmaking to our social agencies. The police’s own family violence policy as it is written at the moment makes prosecution mandatory where an offence is disclosed. 
It is MPs who make the law not the police and not Child Youth and Family. Threats to pull the bill if my amendment passes show bad grace. So I say to Sue Bradford that if she does not like the process she should not participate. I have already spoken about the implications for those elected to this Parliament to be active participants in the process. Members put their ideas up for debate. They work damn hard to articulate them they lobby and they sweat blood. Then it is over to the House. We win or we lose. We do not pick up our ball and go home; we do not chuck our toys out of the cot spit the dummy and sulk. 
Sue Bradford’s bill initially sought to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act and this was a reflection of her philosophical position. There was no surprise. Sue and the rest of the Green Party are activists and it kills them to abstain but they do it in expectation of reward. One of the rewards was Labour support for this bill and Helen Clark promised it without resort to her caucus. She made a press statement before going into the room saying that she expected 100 percent support for the bill from her caucus and she did this knowing that she did not have it. She sold it as a collective conscience issue but there is no collective conscience in the Labour Party; there is only fierce discipline. She knew that there were dissenters in her camp. She knew and she knows now that at least eight of her troops are swallowing rats over this bill and my amendment. Even proponents of the Bradford bill admitted that the amendment made so much sense that many of Labour’s caucus want to vote for the amendment. 
What Labour’s one-time supporters out on the streets say though is that Labour has no regard for them. It has no regard for the 80-plus percent of New Zealanders who disagree with criminalising parents and who have constantly done so in nearly 20 polls and surveys on this issue over the past 2 years. Labour says: “Stuff your beliefs your thoughts your parental relationships. This issue is on our agenda. We’re going to pass it—eat that.” 
I stand here today bringing with me the experience—some would say the baggage—of 30 years of dealing with agencies involved with child abuse. For all the rhetoric around this bill all the “send a message” all the protecting of children and for all of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child nobody on either side of this debate believes that the bill will save one life or one beaten child. There is not a single parent whom this bill will affect who presents a threat to his or her child. Who will it send a message to? Which children are they actually seeking to protect? The Otago University longitudinal study found that children raised in a safe loving and nurturing home who were smacked achieve all the good social educational and financial heights of a child raised in a similar home who is not smacked. Children who are not nurtured in a warm loving relationship do not do so well at all. 
I find it hugely ironic that a Government that refuses to take responsibility for vulnerable people hurt while living in its care—such as the likes of Liam Ashley who was killed in a prison van by a murderer he was handcuffed to like the numerous young people under placement by Child Youth and Family who are abused physically and sexually in foster homes and like those suffering from instances of ECT in mental hospitals—sees it as its role to take responsibility for what goes on in the private homes of good New Zealanders who would otherwise never come to the notice of the police Child Youth and Family or the court system. 
Proponents of this bill have continually spoken about parents who want to beat their children. I doubt whether I have heard anybody from their side talk about a smack. It has always been words like thump whack belt bash and assault. My amendment seeks to strongly limit the use of a section 59 defence by allowing the use of reasonable force for correction. So that is the amendment to this clause: to add to the clause after the word “provision” the words “for the parental control of children by limiting the use of force for the purpose of correction.” As frivolous as opponents would paint this amendment the Law Commission has said that this is a significant limiting of the law as it currently is. That was said by the same commissioner whom Labour stands behind in respect of his opposing opinion to Peter McKenzie QC. 
Labour members cannot have it both ways and they will need to have a think about that. An amendment I have put forward to clause 4 limits the use of section 59 to three minor uses because parents who do more than what is reasonable will be charged with more serious offences. The amendment does not allow the use of implements because they become too hard to define effectively and we would be forced to try to define not only what they were but also how they would be used which would be a hopeless situation. Reasonable force could not be used in a way that is cruel degrading or terrifying. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: The fifth provision to my amendment seeks to restrict the law as to harm more tightly from where it is now. 
The point has been made that we are writing the law here so as divisive as it may seem we have to be specific in writing that law. Opponents will always twist the need for this into what it is not. They will say that an amendment is in some way compliant with those who beat thump bash and assault their children—as the Prime Minister has been saying lately. I have used a term from the common law to set the most extreme level of force that can be inflicted and that could possibly be saved by this amendment. It is a legal term for the reddening of skin from a smack. In the law it is called “transitory and trifling harm”. Those are not my words and they are not flowery words that have been made up by someone trying to squeeze something into the law as has been suggested; they are legal words and they come from the common law. 
I would bet my life on it that every good parent who has seen that redness feels immediate guilt because the smack was obviously too hard and left a red mark. I have seen the red mark where my hand has smacked a wee bottom and I have frequently eaten myself up about it since. But I do not believe I should be liable to prosecution for it. I am not proud of it and I do not argue it is my right or duty but I do believe I should not be rendered liable for prosecution for having gone to that level. That is where the line is drawn. 
The media and my opponents have tried in every way they can to say that I believe it is OK to hit one’s children. I have never said that. I have not promoted smacking. I have never said the words “It never did me any harm.” which is not an argument for anything. Sue Bradford has said that I take this stand because in her words as she said on the radio: “Well he’s an ex-policeman and a big man so he would wouldn’t he.” 
I take this stand for the children of ordinary New Zealanders. When I am asked by my grandchildren what I did in Parliament I will proudly point to this day as just one example of a stand I took with others to protect the families and future families of this country. 
DARIEN FENTON (Labour) 
: 
 I am grateful for the opportunity to take a call in this debate on clause 3 of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. It is the first time I have spoken on this issue and I appreciate the chance to put my point of view on record. Clause 3 the purpose clause is pretty clear but I have been pretty astounded by the suggested amendments the debate and the hysteria that this bill has engendered. It is natural for people to have strong views when it comes to our children. I understand that. New Zealanders do tend to be fiercely protective of their families. But for me it is a simple question of protecting small people and babies. Is it right for adults who have a lot of power compared with small people and babies to exercise that power in physical force and for that physical force to continue to be a defence? I say it is not. I say it is time that we all accept that there are better ways to raise children than to exercise violence upon them. We are talking about violence here. We are talking about physical force and whether it is trivial or transitory or whether it is a light spank or a big wallop it is still physical force that is being used on human beings who are vulnerable. 
One of the good things about Sue Bradford’s bill—and I thank the member for it—is that it has created debate in this country about how we raise our children. As in many families I imagine there have been lots of conversations in my family about our experiences both as children and in raising our own children—and of course lots of debate as well. I realised when I was talking with my siblings that we could never remember being smacked or hit in any way. The reason is that we were raised when Dr Spock was advising our parents that hitting children was not an effective way of teaching a child boundaries. Of course when Dr Spock was an old man he resiled from that advice saying he had encouraged a generation of spoilt brats. I disagree; I think that is pretty harsh. Those I know who were raised under Dr Spock’s advice are good law-abiding citizens. I am one of them. 
I recall being whacked at school. I know that this is not to do with the purpose of this bill but I think it is important to remember that in the past this House has debated issues about violence towards children. It eventually saw sense and outlawed corporal punishment. I remember when I was in standard 4 a teacher galloping down the corridor towards me to deliver the strap with maximum force. I remember how shocked I was. It did not change my behaviour; in fact it might have contributed to it in the future because I did not think I had done anything wrong. It made me more defiant and determined to buck the system. I became a hero in standard 4 because I was the one who stood up to the teachers. The sense of injustice I felt at that time was so strong that it influenced my lifelong pursuit of social justice. 
When my siblings and I raised our children we set out not to discipline them with force emulating the example that had been set by our parents. Unfortunately I recall losing my temper once with my little son and whacking him. To this day I regret it. Anyone who has parented a child can understand the level of frustration that leads parents to do things like that but it could so easily have escalated into punishment that went wrong. 
Like many mums I worked as a supervisor in the local playcentre as mums often do when their kids are small. I often ended up dealing with other people’s children who were hitting each other. When I said that that was not OK they could not understand it because they had been taught by their parents that hitting was OK. The fact is that children learn by observing their parents and there is no doubt that violence begets violence. It is well established that children who have grown up with violence are more likely to perpetuate violence on their own families. Positive parenting has been found to be much more effective in teaching children to behave well. 
Parents can make different choices about setting boundaries for children. I had an interesting conversation with a taxi driver on my way into Parliament at the beginning of the week. He told me that he has never hit his kids and that he did not support hitting kids. But when he took his daughter’s cellphone off her for a week she begged him to curtail her allowance for a month instead because taking that cellphone had a real impact on her. We can parent without violence and the Government’s SKIP programme teaches parents how to do that. I just wish that I had had that programme when I was the parent of a young child. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I am delighted to take a call on clause 3 the purpose clause of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. I have to say that for me this bill is about far more than just whether to smack children; it is about telling New Zealand parents that we as a Parliament know best how they should bring up their kids. 
I say to this Committee that I am probably in a unique position. I have been married for 32 years and for 16 years of those we were without children. I tell members that for those first 16 years we knew exactly how to bring up kids. Every time we visited the supermarket and saw little ratbags tearing stuff out of the freezer and so on my wife would say: “Look at those dreadful parents. We know how to do it.” We were the best parents the world had ever produced—for our first 16 years. Then we got a child. We now have three children. They are all adopted so members can stay calm. The children did not get my genes so they are lucky. I have to say that parenting turned out to be the hardest bloody job the world has ever seen. It is a job for which parents get no training and it is a job whereby parents have the ultimate responsibility to make those children become grown-ups who are responsible capable and productive members of society. 
One of the things that parents have to do with little children is set boundaries. We are not talking about 12-year-olds. Taking a cellphone off a 2-year-old or an 18-month-old is a bit of a ridiculous punishment. My 18-month-old never had a cellphone. [ 
Interruption 
] Yes under ACT they would all get a cellphone. A parent has to say to children that there are some boundaries in life. If children do not learn those boundaries of right and wrong and what they can and cannot do then they will end up being little horrors for the rest of their lives hated by most people and more often than not in trouble with society when they grow up. I believe that most parents are responsible and that the vast bulk of parents if they do smack for correction usually give a very gentle smack that they use to teach boundaries to a very small child. I hear from Sue Bradford and from the Labour members that they are not outlawing that—that this bill does not do that. Well actually it does. 
Let me make it clear now that I think anyone who beats a child uses violence against a child or thrashes a child should be locked up. Anyone who uses an implement a tool a weapon or an electric jug cord on a child should be locked up. But that is not what this debate tonight is about. This debate tonight is about parents teaching children a very very valuable set of values in life and about boundaries and right and wrong. 
Children try parents out. I will never forget my little girl Brittany trying me out about the poker in the fireplace. She was trying to grab it and I said: “Don’t you touch that you’ll get burnt.” She put her hand out and went to grab it. I said: “Brittany don’t touch it.” She put her hand further out. I said: “If you touch that I’ll give you a smack.” She said: “No!” and grabbed it. She was 2 and she was trying me out. She was seeing what would happen. Actually she got a hell of a fright because the poker was a lot hotter than she expected. But she did get a smack. It was not a hard one and it did not do any damage; it did not do anything. In fact only about a month later when I put her in time out she actually asked if she could please have a smack rather than time out. It taught her about boundaries and right and wrong. But this bill is about the nanny State. 
A huge number of members of this House have never had children and have never had to go through the process of what it is like. Let me tell members that in my first 16 years of marriage I knew exactly how to bring up kids. I knew rights and wrongs and so on until the reality struck me that parenting is a much harder bloody job than it seems. 
If Chester Borrows’ amendments were adopted by this Committee the bill would get my vote right there and then. We are saying that anyone who does brutalising violent damage to a kid should be locked up. But parents who are trying to act responsibly teach barriers and be gentle with their kids while showing them right from wrong will actually be made criminals by this bill. I know that the police will not charge into every house around the country to arrest people and lock them up. But I made the point before that this is a wonderful weapon to use in a matrimonial split. A wife could say: “My husband beat the kids. He’s a criminal. Let him have no custody.” If yes the husband had given them a smack then he would be a criminal and lose custody. 
Here is another great example that goes on daily as I am sure members know: neighbourhood fights. How do I get at my neighbour? I can report her and say that I saw her smack her child. There we have it. I have to say that I have found nothing more galling than this bill. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Education) 
: 
 All members of the House remember the famous statement made by Winston Churchill who said he had been to the House many times he had seen people cry he had seen tears shed but he had never seen anybody change his or her mind in the Chamber. I guess this is one of those debates—unfortunately—where we spend our time railing back and forth across the Chamber at each other thinking hopefully that somebody might change his or her mind. Hopefully we are not all fixed in our minds. I think Maurice Williamson showed in the last speech that he is willing to actually think about the issue and change his mind if he could see his way through it. 
Really what we are talking about is a very very— 
Judith Collins 
: We’ve all thought about the issues. Stop being so patronising! 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am not being patronising. I ask the member not to be so stupid. I say that that member Mrs Collins has a mortgage on this whole thing. As far as I have seen she has mortgaged it with patronising comments. 
What I am saying here—[ 
Interruption 
] Are we allowed to say things on our side of the Chamber or is this typical of the way that Mrs Collins’ side debates—by always trying to browbeat people? 
What we are doing here is talking about the very simple issue of whether we ought to do something about section 59. I have argued for the repeal of section 59 ever since I have been in the House. The way I understand section 59 is very simply this. It is part of the Crimes Act and the only reason it kicks in at all is if someone has committed a crime. That person then goes to court with the police prosecuting him or her for using that kind of force on a child—it usually requires a rubber hose a horse whip or something like that. That person ends up in court and then uses a defence that it was reasonable in the circumstances to do that. We all know—as Mr Williamson said—that that is wrong. We do not want that in our legislation. No one should be able to go to court and use a defence for anything like that at all. That is why I have wanted the section repealed all the way along. 
At the present time we have an effort to try to bridge the gap between people who understand that that section should go but who feel a little uncomfortable about what the implications of repeal might mean. So after a whole lot of advice a provision has gone into the legislation for someone who is restraining a child because that child might harm someone or might harm himself or herself—the usual story of a child running along the road or sticking a finger in an electric socket and those kinds of things—or for someone who strikes down a child’s hand. We all know that that is done to save the child or to stop the child from doing something that will harm somebody else. Once again I think we would all agree with that. We want to be able to ensure that parents are comfortable in their ability to do that. 
The one remaining part we are debating here is the question of whether if we remove this section we have somehow created an offence even though there is nothing going into the law. Like Mr Williamson I inherited my children too and on the only times I have physically had to restrain them it usually came down to sitting on them. That was the device we used to use to ensure that we had restrained them. All of us have been in a situation—as in a supermarket a frustrating position for ordinary parents faced with everyday behaviour—where children have done something that might result in parents giving them a light smack and we ask whether that will be criminalised by this bill. 
The argument of course from people who are advocating this change is that no it will not. What are we relying on? We are relying on the normal daily process of the police who use discretion as they do now in all of these kinds of situations with adults. Will they apply this in relation to someone saying that a parent has used a smack on the bottom of a child at a supermarket? We are arguing that the police will not prosecute; they will use their discretion. In a way this whole argument seems to me to boil down to whether people believe this because no one wants violence on children and no one wants people to be able to defend themselves against that. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: What about marriage break-ups? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: What is that? 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: You could actually get to your spouse by saying to the police that he used a smack— 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes that is what I understand is the issue that probably divides people who are around the middle of the debate. They are asking if we have this change whether they will be safe. Hence we have Mr Borrows’—I think well-meaning—effort to try to write that into the law. The reason I do not like that is because it would lead us down the slippery slope of saying we would then have to try to define what sort of hit could be applied to a child where the hit could be put and how much force could be used. I do not think we could ever make that kind of legislation stick. 
I think we have boiled it down to the fact that we all agree we do not want violence and we do not want a defence against that kind of violence. We want parents to be able to restrain their children and not have to worry about it. We are concerned now only about how the police will interpret this legislation. We are not legislating against smacking children here; there is nothing going into the law. What we are relying on is the removal of something and then there will be a space left that asks how that will be interpreted. That is what it boils down to and I am arguing that we will not see the police become involved in that kind of behaviour. 
PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 There have been some hypothetical situations tonight and I would like to add another one. A young mother and two children Johnny and Joey were going across the road. The children had worked it out between themselves that they were going to dart across the road just before a car came. I know this happens; I saw it happen not that long ago—3 or 4 months ago—not with a mother but with one single kiddie who was playing chicken or something. Sue Bradford can maybe tell me whether I fully understand the situation. Joey got across and Johnny got a smack. He got caught by the mother and got a smack. Joey was on the other side laughing but he thought a smack was coming. They were on a relatively rural road where there was a bit of road dug up and a bit of work going on. There was a poor old guy—maybe like myself—digging in his front garden. Joey took off and picked up a stone a chunk of rock to fling at the old guy. The young guy who got caught and got smacked for not doing anything was following behind and he had the same idea. But the mother caught him again and gave him another smack while the other one threw the rock at the old guy and hit him on the head. 
Rodney Hide 
: Which one got the smack? 
PETER BROWN 
: The one who stayed with the mother. I ask Mr Hide not to get confused. 
 Now we have a situation—and I want Sue Bradford to tell me about this. The kiddie who did the damage the kiddie who crossed the road was not punished but the kiddie who was stopped was punished twice. Their mother took them both home and said: “I’m going to put you in your rooms for some time out.” But the kiddies wrestled like hell as they do from time to time and it virtually became an assault case to get the kiddies in their rooms. The member can tell me whether I have got it wrong because this bill states that someone can smack to stop a kiddie from doing harm to himself or herself someone can smack to stop a kiddie from doing harm to somebody else but someone cannot smack for correction. I urge the member in the chair Sue Bradford that if she thinks I am wrong to tell me but if I am right I say that this bill needs Chester Borrows’ amendment. 
I heard the Hon Steve Maharey a little while ago saying that the Chester Borrows amendment would give guidance to smacking or what have you and he would prefer to leave it to police discretion. I ask members in the Committee what they think the police will do. They will come out with some discretionary powers. I asked a few police constables—whom I will not name although I could easily—and they said to me as individuals virtually the same thing. They will be told by their superiors that they are not to use discretion as that is for judges. If this bill goes through if my fears are realised there will be police cars at a number of houses. 
Hon Chris Carter 
: Do they prosecute at rugby games now? It happens every week—technically an assault—but do they prosecute? No. 
PETER BROWN 
: Does the Minister think it is absolutely nice to have policemen knocking on neighbours’ houses saying: “I heard that you smacked little Johnny.”? I can tell members that this bill is opening the door wide and even if the police do not prosecute the stigma of having the cops around time and time again because little Johnny or little Joey were alleged to have been smacked is not on. 
The Chester Borrows amendment is very clear and it is very simple. It protects the child from abuse. Anybody who goes further than the rather tame smacking outlined in the amendment will be up for possible prosecution but the amendment does allow the parents some discipline for a correction basis. I say that if it is good enough to allow a parent to smack to stop someone from doing something there and then what is the real rationale for stopping them from doing something into the future—for correcting behaviour? It is a play on words. 
NICKY WAGNER (National) 
: 
 The public is getting increasingly concerned about this bill because of the confusion and spin that surrounds it. We just need to look at the number of emails that are pouring into our in-boxes and at the marchers on the streets. People are really up in arms about this. I think this is probably the most emotive and highly charged bill we have seen since the Civil Union Act was passed in 2004. 
But the issue that really concerns me even from listening to some of the discussion in this Chamber is that very few people actually know what the bill is all about. So I want to go over it quickly. We know because we debated clause 2A for a long time that the bill is to amend section 59 of the Crimes Act. Section 59 is a defence that allows the use of physical force against children only if that action meets three strict criteria. The first criterion is that someone has to be a parent or guardian the second is that reasonable force has to be used and the third is that it has to be for the purposes of correction. 
They are three pretty sensible tests. First of all the fact that the section relates only to a parent or guardian recognises the very special relationship that parents have with their kids. They are the ones who have all the rights but all the responsibilities of bringing up kids—all those joys all those disappointments all those nights all those worries all those thermometers in the dead of night and all that time spent agonising over what their kids are doing. They are the only people who really put their kids first. 
Secondly reasonable force has to be used. All those active emotional words that we have heard bandied about tonight—words like whacking thrashing whipping and the bash—are already excluded because no one in his or her right mind thinks that such actions are reasonable. 
Thirdly the force has to be used for the purpose of correction. Force cannot be used when someone is drunk and has a headache and the kids are getting in the way. Force cannot be used when someone is having a bad hair day. Force can be used when people believe they were doing something good for their children. 
So child abuse in any form is clearly excluded. It cannot be defended under the existing section 59. None of the horrible incidents that Sue Bradford mentioned—none of them—such as the cases of “Lillybing” James Whakaruru or the Kahui twins could have used section 59 as a defence or even attempted to use section 59. In fact section 59 is hardly ever invoked. It has been used only 18 times in the last 10 years—that is a fact—and on only six occasions have parents or guardians got off a charge by using section 59. There seems to have been a small amount of argument about those six cases although I admit that a couple of cases concerned many people and one very high-profile case in Timaru a couple of years ago was hotly debated. The jury acquitted that woman in Timaru in circumstances that many people felt were unjust. I note here that it was a jury that acquitted that woman because people who are parents and who know how difficult parenting is find it very hard to convict someone whom they feel is doing the best he or she can. 
I want to make my points clear. Section 59 has three strict criteria and they have to be met before it can be used as a defence. It precludes child abuse because nobody—judge or jury—thinks that child abuse is reasonable and it is rarely used. But I also acknowledge—and this is exactly what members on the other side of the Chamber are saying—that there were cases that concerned people. That is why Chester Borrows is looking at an amendment. 
Like all New Zealanders I am concerned about the violence in our society. 
TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Independent—Mangere) 
: 
 I am very interested in listening to this debate and to the points being made. I have a real care that we in this Parliament are showing some real concern for our children and that is good. But the issue with me relates to how genuine that concern is because thousands of children suffer and pay the ultimate price of violent abuse in relation to abortion. How many thousands of children die in New Zealand as a result of abortion? How many members of Parliament are concerned about that rate of death for children in New Zealand? In fact we have a law and a policy that literally results in that appalling number of deaths. Members cannot tell me that a foetus in the womb is not a human being. We could get into an argument about abortion. How many years have we debated it in this Chamber? But the reality is that thousands of children pay the ultimate price for abuse in the murder of those children in the womb. 
 Where is the concern of this Parliament in regard to those issues? Where is the sympathy compassion and concern about children when it comes to that issue and those thousands of children who die every year? That is a question I ask this Committee. I ask New Zealanders too because I think a whole lot of New Zealanders are concerned about that. We talk about children dying and children being abused but what about those children? They do not even get a chance to have life. Where is the sympathy? Where is the law to give them some protection? Let us ask ourselves that. Let us not have crocodile tears about children’s rights and about whatever is determined by the United Nations; let us ask ourselves about the issue of abortion because we are talking about children dying and babies dying. Where is Sue Bradford’s concern about that issue? I watched the march today. I watched people marching. But maybe abortion is an issue that some people should be marching about. That to me is a very serious issue. 
It does not matter how we debate this bill in this Chamber; the thought will continue amongst the majority of New Zealanders that this is a silly law that will not work. It is unworkable. Parents know they have a God-given right to use reasonable force that does not harm a child but that sets out correction and teaches the child what is right and what is wrong. As far as I am concerned that is a right that parents should continue to have. No law should prohibit their right to parent and raise their children in a godly way that benefits those children. 
I note that the amendments proposed by Mr Borrows define reasonable force. We are all concerned about abuse. We debated a few weeks ago the abuse of children and the use of unreasonable force and I agree that child abuse is already against the law. It is already against the law to abuse children. What is being proposed here will miss the mark. I think somebody said that it is like using a huge sledgehammer to crack a peanut. It really is overkill and most New Zealanders realise it. The polling shows that—83 percent oppose this bill for the stupidity it represents. I stand by that position. 
This bill not only will have a negative effect long term but will have a negative effect on relationships within the family—the relationship between the child and the parent and the relationship between siblings and their parents who may be involved in a prosecution. Those are the sorts of concerns that members of this Committee should be considering when we debate this bill. 
The other real concern is that if we are to take away disciplinary correction of children by way of a harmless smack—and we can debate how the police will interpret that—and if this method is not available to parents to discipline their children what psychological damage may be caused? There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am sure that if parents do not have this avenue of discipline for the purpose of correction their screaming at their children and perhaps intimidating them will cause psychological damage. What does a child suffer in psychological damage in comparison with other forms of abuse? Members should answer that question. Has anybody given any thought to what this bill could promote? 
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
: 
 This debate is supposed to be about the purpose of this bill. I can tell members right now that the purpose of this bill is to decide who is in charge of our children. The members opposite want to be able to say that they know how to bring up our children. Not one of them cares about our children. Those members care only about themselves and their ability to strut on the world stage at the UN hold up a little flag and say: “Look what we did in New Zealand.” Not one part of this legislation will help the children who are killed in this country. Nobody in this Chamber will be able to deal with the real causes of child abuse by passing this bill. Not one child will be saved by this bill but families will be set asunder. 
I was amazed to hear tonight the argument from some Cabinet Ministers that we can trust the police to do whatever they want because they will always use their discretion in the right way. Well those Ministers should tell that to Mr Solanki of Hamilton. He went through a court case because he held his 12-year-old daughter by her shoulders against her will because he wanted to talk to her. The police were called; 111 was dialled. And they turned up—yes they did. The police prosecuted Mr Solanki. The case went right through the court and ended up in the Court of Appeal which said that it was very sorry to Mr Solanki because it was a stupid case and a waste of time. Why did that happen? Because Mr Solanki was not doing that to discipline his child so he was not able to do it. 
Jill Pettis 
: That’s now. 
JUDITH COLLINS 
: Right now—Mrs Pettis is absolutely right. Do members know that section 59 does not protect a father from that sort of police abuse—because that is exactly what happened? 
But Mr Solanki was not like me: he was brown so was treated differently from someone like me. I have heard in this Chamber tonight that the police will suddenly become serious and sensible about using their discretion. I have had members opposite say to me that I should not worry because this legislation will not affect people like me. What they actually mean is that it will not affect me because I am white. That is what the issue is about. It certainly will affect the people of Mangere. It certainly will affect the poor. It certainly will affect those who are not articulate. It certainly will affect those who have any other criminal convictions. It certainly will do so. That is exactly what this bill is about. It is about giving more power to the State so that it can tell us how to bring up our children. 
This bill comes from people who have no experience of raising children or whose experience simply has not been successful. Those people will criminalise our good parents. They will criminalise people who actually love and care for their children. This is not a fight about the power to smack or about anything like that. All that those women of the Labour Party will do—and by the way has anyone noticed that since Georgina Beyer left Parliament the Labour Party has lost one of its women—is to take good parents out of homes. They will take children out of homes and put them into Child Youth and Family care whereby as many people know children often do not get much care. Child Youth and Family has supposedly 13000 substantiated child abuse cases. The figure has more than doubled under this Government which has taken away responsibility for children from parents. The figure has more than doubled. Will this bill help any of those children? No it will not. 
This bill is about putting parents in their place. It is not about good parenting and it is not about benefiting children; it is about putting parents in their place. If that was not the purpose of the bill those people opposite would support my colleague Chester Borrows’ amendment to this clause. His amendment deals with the very sensible issue of not whipping children and not beating them with anything. It keeps discipline at the level it should be at. It is about good parenting and not about arresting or picking on parents just because they are poor inarticulate or might have done something else that is wrong. This is one of the most important bills in this Parliament and the reason is that 83 percent of the people in this country know that this Government has gone too far. This is a case of the nanny State gone mad. I am here tonight to help to save kids from the nanny State. The nanny State is no good; it is a bad nanny. It goes home at 5 o’clock every night; it does not care. The nanny State is not there at 3 o’clock in the morning. This bill is a disgrace. 
GORDON COPELAND (United Future) 
: 
 I would like to speak to clause 3. It is very very clear and unambiguous in its language that the purpose of this bill is to abolish the use of parental force for the purpose of correction. It is quite interesting that the clause includes the concept of abolition because it is actually the 200th anniversary at this time of the abolition of the trans-Atlantic trade in slavery. That indeed was something that needed to be abolished. 
But I want to question tonight in this Chamber whether it is a good idea to abolish correction by parents of their children. I think that that leads us straight into a consideration of what it is we are trying to abolish. If we look at the  
Shorter Oxford English Dictionary 
 we find that correction means “The action of putting right or indicating errors.” We are going to abolish that here tonight. The definition further states that correction is “Reproof of a person for a fault of character or conduct.” We are saying that we are going to abolish that here tonight. Justice Fisher in a 2003 case said: “Correction implies that the object of the punishment was to deter repetition of improper conduct.” This Committee is asked to accept tonight that we should be abolishing that. 
I find that very very ironic because we actually have a Department of Corrections in this country and the State has no problem at all in correcting people—through arrest and imprisonment—with the object of deterring a repetition of improper conduct. That is what our Department of Corrections is set up to do. People have said that we should treat children in the same way as adults. Well I for one am not keen to send children to prison. I think there is a vast difference between a child and an adult when it comes to correction. But my real fear is that if we do not correct our children when they are children—that is punish them to “deter repetition of improper conduct”—then we greatly increase the risk that the State will have to correct them as adults. That is the purpose of correction. 
The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child specifically recognises the right of parents to train and discipline their children. This bill actually contravenes that convention and it is a nonsense to pretend otherwise. Therefore— 
Jill Pettis 
: So you can only discipline by force? 
GORDON COPELAND 
: Well that is the only thing we are abolishing. As Taito Phillip Field and others have pointed out we are leaving in correction through yelling and screaming at children telling children they are no good and putting children down. In my experience with many many people over many years in counselling and otherwise that does a great deal more damage to a child than does a smack—a great deal more damage. There is no comparison between the two. I know lots and lots of people who say: “My life is screwed up because when I was a kid I was told I was no good. I would never amount to anything.” That does grave damage to a child. We are not abolishing that—that is OK—but a smack is wrong. I think it is exactly the other way around. 
I will give members this analogy. Why do we put a needle into our child’s veins and inoculate him or her against disease? Is that painful? Is that an assault on a child? Of course it is. But why do we do it? We do it because we love that child. We do it because we want that child to be able to live a healthy life. That is a good goal. Quite frankly the goal—the purpose—behind why we smack a child is all-important. One can do that in love. One can do that to correct a child’s behaviour so that that child will grow up to be a good peace-loving non-violent person. That is in the best interests of the child. That is what motivates loving parents; they love their kids enough to discipline them. 
A lady said to me the other day: “You know there was a little beggar next door and his mother gave him a good hiding. I went across and said to her: ‘I see you gave the child a hiding.’ The mother said: ‘You’re not going to tell the police are you?’. I said to her: ‘No but I would have told the police had you not given him a hiding.’ ” That woman actually realised of course that that child needed some discipline—he needed some boundaries. All the psychologists and all the people who study child behaviour will tell us that if children do not learn boundaries as children they will learn them as adults in the hands of the police and in the hands of the Department of Corrections. That is a stupid thing to be doing. 
STEVE CHADWICK (Labour—Rotorua) 
: 
 I heard the same hysterical highly emotional and rhetorical debate on the smoke-free environments amendment legislation. It spun out of control in the public perception because of misinformation. We are dealing tonight sadly with a lot of misinformation that has gone out to the public and has raised among the public anxiety and concern that do not even need to be there. I think tonight some members in this Committee need to look at their own behaviour and look at their hypocritical attitudes. I chair the Littlies Lobby in this House— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member cannot say that. She needs to withdraw and apologise. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Apologise for that. 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: I withdraw and apologise. We need to— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Just a minute; please be seated. Mr Brownlee I was on my feet and I was ruling. You know that you cannot talk over me. You will withdraw and apologise. 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No I am talking to Mr Brownlee. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I also withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I assume now you are going to ask Steve Chadwick to withdraw and apologise for her appalling remark. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Mr Brownlee she had already done that before I called you. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. In actual fact what you said to her was “No no I’m not calling you; I’m calling Gerry Brownlee.” Well I accepted your call and made the apology so theoretically there is no apology from Steve Chadwick yet. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: All I would say to Mr Brownlee is to go back tomorrow and read the  
Hansard 
. You will see very clearly that Steve Chadwick withdrew and apologised before you were on your feet. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I take your advice. Thank you very much. I assume you are going to make Steve Chadwick’s  
Hansard 
 available for us to check tomorrow? 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: I just remind members across the Chamber— 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. What is the answer? We do not get Steve Chadwick’s  
Hansard 
 for over 2 weeks. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member knows the rules. Please be seated. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I do. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member knows the rules very clearly. That is up to the member. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. You have instructed me to take a look at the  
Hansard 
 tomorrow to see that there was an apology from Steve Chadwick. I cannot do that tomorrow because Steve Chadwick’s  
Hansard 
 will not be available for some time. But if you as the Chair were to suggest that the  
Hansard 
 should be made available then of course it will be. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. As the member knows very well it is up to the member to do that but I would suggest that the member will be able to read the  
Hansard 
 when it is available. 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I am happy to table my  
Hansard 
 tomorrow for the benefit of members in the Committee and if it is required I am happy to withdraw and apologise again. 
But I want to also draw the attention of members in this Committee to some rather hypocritical behaviour. I chair the Littlies Lobby along with these wonderful advocates in the House tonight: Barnardos Plunket Women’s Refuge Save the Children Unicef and EPOCH— 
Judith Collins 
: They are not in the House! 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: Yes they are all in the gallery tonight hearing the screaming and hysteria in this Committee from members. I recall that members in this Committee tonight who are point-scoring on the backs of our children came to that meeting to hear Joan Durrant a leading world expert who talked about the repeal of section 59. They all said what a wonderful thing that was and that they supported any initiative that would make a difference to the dreadful levels of child abuse in this country. Something has dramatically changed the minds of members of the Opposition and they have conveniently forgotten the role that we all agreed: to work together as a political lobby group in order to make the lives of our children better in this country and to rid ourselves of the dreadful reputation we have for violence to our children. 
I would like to acknowledge Brian Donnelly here tonight. He stood up long before the repeal of section 59 had popularity and bravely voiced that it was one initiative just one initiative that will not solve issues— 
Anne Tolley 
: It won’t solve abuse. 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: That is right—it will not solve abuse. But repeal of section 59 will put out very strong social messaging to the parents in the community whom I have dealt with that we no longer tolerate violence of any sort to our children. I believe that we are all saying the same thing in the Committee tonight. 
I also really believe that Chester Borrows has genuinely tried to find amendments that reflect the level of concern from parents who are anxious and feel they may no longer be able to discipline their children for purposes of correction. I believe that it is a matter of definition and I prefer the amendments put up by Sir Geoffrey Palmer. I think they are more lucid— 
Chester Borrows 
: He wrote mine too. 
STEVE CHADWICK 
: Yes I know he wrote that member’s amendments but we know what he thought of them too. 
I have heard in the Committee of instances where section 59 has not been used as a defence in the courts. Well 20 years ago—I used this example in my first speech to the House—I admitted a child to the children’s ward of a hospital. I managed the children’s ward and set up the first child abuse service in Rotorua so I do not appreciate or respect Opposition members saying that some of us have no professional expertise or standing on the issue of child abuse. It has been my life’s work. That child I admitted was in a little pushchair cowering. When I lifted him to put him into a cot his body collapsed like a witch’s wand. Twenty-four bones in his body were broken. That father went to court and hid behind section 59 saying he had used reasonable force. We had to get care and protection and have paediatricians involved to remove that child from his father. People cannot hide behind section 59. 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 Of course everyone feels for the little baby that Steve Chadwick speaks of but that is not what the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill is about. I will go back to what the Hon Steve Maharey had to say because I think he actually put his finger on the nub of the issue. 
Funnily enough I do not think there is a big difference between the supporters of this bill and those of us who oppose it. I think where we differ is in respect of what the bill means in practice. One of the things that bothers me about the bill is that we will not know what it means in practice until it is passed which is not a very good way of making the law. We have a situation whereby Steve Maharey who is voting for the bill says that proponents of the bill are not about stopping a light smack on the bottom and that they do not want to ban smacking but to remove the defence for abuse. Actually I am sort of with Steve Maharey but when I look at the bill I think hang on if I smacked my son—if I had a toddler—then I would be breaking the law. That is what this bill says. But then the proponents of the bill say not to worry because the police will not do anything. That makes me wonder what sort of police we have if we are sitting here passing a law that the police will not do anything about if I smack my son for whatever reason. 
Then Steve Maharey says—and I am with him; I want people to understand that—that it is too hard for Parliament to define where the boundaries should be and that the trouble with Chester Borrows’ amendment is that he has Parliament trying to define that boundary. Steve Maharey says that is too tough. Steve Maharey stands up in this Parliament—and again I am agreeing with him—and says that because it is too tough to define we will leave it up to the police. That causes me grave concern because Mr Plod will have to decide and I do not think that we as a Parliament should put the police in that predicament. Here we are in Parliament elected to make these decisions and we are saying that it is too tough for us and that it is the job of the police. 
So the police will be turning up at Mrs Brown’s place and saying they have received a complaint that she has smacked her son. The proponents of the bill say that the police officer will then make a decision about whether to prosecute her and leave it up to the courts. That is a horrible situation for a police officer to be in. But it also means that we have arbitrary power: one police officer could go to one person’s house and say that the situation involving a light smack was OK because no damage was done and the kid is OK then wander off. But another officer may go to another house say he or she does not like the look of the situation and prosecute. Yet that situation could be exactly the same as in the first case. We in Parliament are saying that is OK because the police will do it. Well I am sorry but it is the job of this Parliament to make the law. It is the job of this Parliament to make clear law for the citizens of this country so they know what it is and so the police know where the lines are. 
I am sitting here listening to the debate but I do not actually know what the police will do. I do not know what this bill means in practice. So why are we passing it and why are we having a debate that is all about children being battered beaten and abused? I think that on all sides of the Chamber we agree that that is already against the law. What we are interested in are the implications of removing the defence of reasonable force for parents. 
Hon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First) 
: 
 People in the Committee have already heard of my experience of going from a situation of being a principal who used corporal punishment when we were protected under section 59 of the Crimes Act to a situation where we had no protections and had to find things out. 
When I came to Parliament in 1996 I was really concerned about what we could do about reducing violence towards children. We had a bit of time because at that stage we were in negotiations with both Labour and National. I wanted to raise this concern in my maiden speech and I wanted to do some research. I thought I would go to the Commissioner for Children and see whether I could get him to give a bit of a hand on this one. I knew we had been taken away from using corporal punishment in schools but I did not know there was a thing called section 59. 
I talked the matter over with a guy by the name of Laurie O’Reilly who was the Commissioner for Children at the time. I have to say he was a man’s man. He was a prop and had played rugby for Canterbury. The guy was certainly no wimp. We looked at all the different issues but finally he said to me: “We will never reduce violence against children in this country until we repeal section 59.” That is the statement he made. I came back and mulled over it. I became a Minister and did not make my maiden speech until February. I mentioned the matter to one of the other Ministers from National who is still a member of Parliament who told me that it was probably right that we did need to get rid of section 59 but that whatever I did I should not mention it in my maiden speech. He said that I was now a member of the executive and that we did not want to go down that track because of the political implications. 
Since that time I have been mulling over just how we could do it and as we had the tragedies of people like James Whakaruru and “Lillybing” the words of Laurie O’Reilly kept coming back to haunt me. I had looked at the section and I was very clear: I wanted the law framed in such a way that parents who gave their children a smack were not criminalised. I still absolutely believe in that. If anyone asked me whether I believe parents should be criminalised the answer is absolutely no. But I looked at all the different ways it might possibly be done and at what was happening in New South Wales where the law tried to define where and how one could hit a child. I saw that law was an enormous mess. 
In the end in the year 2000 I spoke to the New Zealand First convention and said that I would bring in a law to repeal section 59 but that I also wanted amendments to the care of children legislation which was going through at the time that would actually define what people were able to do in order to protect them. In about 2002—just after the “Lillybing” tragedy—I introduced a bill into the House to repeal section 59 but I could not find my way around that problem. I withdrew the bill in 2002 because I did not believe we had the support for it. 
 I looked at some work by Dr Shane Reti who said that 92 percent of people he researched in the Whangarei area did not believe that parents should have the right to smack their kids around the head or with an implement. We drew up laws for that which went in the name of Barbara Stewart. But every time I attempted to try to get around this particular issue I came back to the problems associated with Chester Borrows’ amendment. I have already said that I will not be voting for Chester Borrows’ amendment but if it goes through and the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill is left in I will actually vote for the bill because I think that it will be better than the situation as it stands at the moment. 
In the end I came to the conclusion that the only way that we could actually protect parents from the sort of vagaries of being charged for a minor smack etc. was to use the legal principles under which our legal system operates. I am talking about the de minimis non curat lex rule—the law does not concern itself with trifles. 
Rodney Hide made a good point when he said that we will not know what will happen until we actually see the legislation in practice. But I go back to the experience with regard to schoolteachers. People will remember that they were removed from the defence in section 59. Therefore any teacher who picks up a child and moves him or her to time out to sit on the mat etc. is breaking the law by way of committing an assault. In fact I saw Gerry Brownlee assault Don Brash in this Chamber but he was not taken to court. And if he had been taken to court it would have been thrown out by the police. [ 
Interruption 
] I will not make mention of that but certainly I would not be running down to court in those circumstances—and nobody has run down to court about teachers. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Leader—National) 
: 
 I was interested in what the previous speaker the Hon Brian Donnelly said because he was quite honest I think in his exposition about why he has come to the position he has. He has honestly expressed the contradiction at the heart of the argument of the proponents of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill which is that we pass a law on the basis that it will not be enforced. Of course those of us who are against this bill believe that that is a silly position but he expressed it honestly. 
However another member of this Parliament has set out to deliberately and calculatedly mislead the public on this matter—that is the Prime Minister. When we are talking about the purpose of this bill we should remember that the Prime Minister has now made a sequence of public statements that deliberately mislead the public about the purpose of the bill. The Prime Minister has said to the public that she is not interested in banning smacking. Then she said that this legislation will not make criminals out of parents who give their child a light smack but that it will stop what she calls “child bashers” whom she referred to in question time today. 
Well the Prime Minister is known for being an intelligent and a hard-working person—even when she is completely wrong—and she knows that that is not what the bill states. She knows that. We might expect to excuse a new member of Parliament who stands up in one of these debates has not read the bill and therefore gives a misleading impression of its content. But the Prime Minister has read the bill. She has more access than anyone in this country to high-quality policy and legal advice about what the bill means yet she still misleads the public. 
This is an anti-smacking bill—that is the purpose of it. The purpose of the bill is to criminalise anyone who uses force for corrective purposes. That is stated in clause 3. I defy the Prime Minister to get on the radio and the TV and to tell the truth. She is misrepresenting this bill to the public not because she cares very much about the issue but because support for the Labour Government is going through the floor because her voters—her good conservative Labour voters—are defecting en masse. 
I repeat the comment that I heard today from someone whom I met in the street who is not a political person but who asked: “Does she think we are stupid?”. The parents of New Zealand know the purpose of clause 3 which states “… abolishing the use of parental force for the purpose of correction.” That is what it is. 
So if our child touches the hot element—as I saw a child do tonight—and we pull the child’s hand away that is legal. If the child does it again and we pull the child’s hand away again that is legal. But if the child goes to do it again and we give the child a smack on the hand that is a criminal offence. If the child goes to school and tells the teacher that is what happened the teacher’s professional ethics oblige the teacher to report it to the police and the police— 
Hon Member 
: Rubbish! 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well it is a criminal offence and the police are obliged to investigate it. The Prime Minister should stop telling the public lies about her bill. She should stop deliberately deceiving the public about the content of this bill. 
Sue Moroney 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The member just made an unparliamentary remark about the Prime Minister and I believe that he should withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member knows very well that he cannot say that. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Thank you. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I would like the Prime Minister and the proponents of this bill to have the courage of their convictions—particularly Sue Bradford who has been manipulated by the Prime Minister into changing her description of this bill. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First) 
: 
 I am in support of this bill— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: See you later Dougie. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: —yes it could be: “See you later.”; it could well be: “See you later.” I just want to explain how I came to my position on this bill because I did not support it in its first reading. Then I had a visit in my office from a lady called Maxine Hodgson whom many members will know from Parentline in Hamilton. Maxine Hodgson said to me that if I did one thing in my term in Parliament and did nothing else I must vote to repeal section 59 of the Crimes Act. 
Hon Members 
: It doesn’t do that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member is speaking from the back of the Chamber. One cannot possibly hear him. I ask members to restrain themselves. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Thank you Madam Chairperson. I listened to Maxine Hodgson and she said that we must repeal section 59. I believe that Maxine Hobson is at the front line. She knows what she is talking about. She is a person who is well versed in the area of child advocacy and she is a person whom I respect. 
Maxine Hodgson says along with all of the other advocacy groups for children—Barnardos EPOCH Parentline and the Presbyterian Church; they all say this—that provision should go and those people all say that because they understand something that is not being talked about today. It is that this measure is the beginning of a very very long road towards reducing child abuse in this country. This bill is about the children. It is not about the sorts of things that have been spoken about here tonight. It is not about somebody’s right to beat a child. This is about the first step in a long journey towards doing something about a curse on our society that I believe we should all be concerned about and all do something about. 
I for one am very very scathing of people who talk to me about crime and about abuse—about the abuse of the elderly about the abuse of women and about the abuse of children—but who when the chance comes to do one little thing about those things run for the hills. They run for the hills and they do not have the guts to stand up in this Parliament and vote for something that is a little— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I say to Mrs Collins and to other members at the back—Mr Bennett—one cannot hear a thing. The noise is going across the Chamber and I ask members to have some consideration for other people. 
Judith Collins 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I understand that it is unparliamentary to stand up in this Chamber and accuse other members of lacking guts. That is exactly what Mr Woolerton just did. You did not take any action on it so some of us felt the need to do something about it. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I could not hear a word of it because of the screaming coming from that member’s side of the Chamber. If Mr Woolerton did say that I ask him to withdraw and apologise. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Quite obviously I would never accuse that member of lacking guts so I withdraw and apologise and I do so humbly. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. [ 
Interruption 
] I am on my feet; that is your final warning. Mr Woolerton you know that when you are asked to withdraw and apologise you cannot say anything else but that you withdraw and apologise. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Thank you Madam Chair. I take your advice and I withdraw and apologise. I think it behoves all of us— 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The member knows the Standing Orders and he should have to comply with them; they are of long standing and are well understood. The only thing a member can say is that he or she withdraws and apologises; a member cannot say anything else. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: That is exactly what the member has just done. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The member said clearly—[ 
Interruption 
] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I give members another warning. When we are dealing with points of order they will be dealt with in silence. I certainly understood very clearly that the member was responding to what I had said which was to say nothing else but that he withdraws and apologises. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
I think it behoves all of us in this Committee to take things one step at a time. It is a fool quite frankly who believes that a problem such as child abuse can be cured in one fell swoop. It is naive and it simply will not happen. So of course the first step must be a little step—and this is a little step. 
Members have been calling out to me saying: “You’re gone Doug.” and all that sort of thing. I just want to say that I belong to a party—and I must say that I had a huge part in forming that party and bringing it to this Parliament—that I believe stands for tolerance a party that straddles the middle ground in Parliament and a party that sadly I feel has put pressure on me not to stand up and support this bill. I say to anybody who believes that I do not have a right as a list MP to speak on a conscience issue and to anybody who would seek to demote me in the situation of a party list that there are people—and I make this absolutely plain to everybody in this Committee—good God-fearing people in New Zealand First who believe that section 59 should be removed. I do not deny those who do not believe that but I want to make sure that everybody in this Committee and everybody in this country knows that there are people in New Zealand First who believe that. I speak for them when I come into this Chamber and say that we should take this first step on the path towards getting rid of the scourge of child abuse. 
MARK BLUMSKY (National) 
: 
 I appreciate the opportunity to speak on clause 3 of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. If there has been an upside to the whole fiasco surrounding this debate and this bill it is that I now know how many Kiwis have email addresses. I suggest to the Committee members that they damn near all do; I believe I have had an email from just about every New Zealander who exists. Even just in the last half-hour I have had 42 emails on this subject come through to my BlackBerry. 
I suggest that one of the problems with those emails is that one sees yet again how rude many Kiwis can be. Is that not sad? I hope we do not as a culture totally lose the ability to respect each other and each other’s arguments and the right to have a different opinion. Sometimes I think some people forget that we actually have the right to a different opinion. 
I take this chance to thank the many people who have come to see me and those who have sent reasonable arguments through by email. I made an effort to read a heck of a lot of them. There are a lot of people who really do care and who have a real concern. Is that not fantastic? One has to be thrilled to bits with that because I think at the end of the day that we all want the same thing. 
I suppose the debate is about whether this bill is delivering on what we hope to deliver. I suggest to Sue Bradford that it is not. I always had it in my mind that Parliament’s role should be to provide leadership for New Zealand. Sometimes leadership gets a bit difficult because one sometimes has to make decisions that fly in the face of public opinion. I ask the member to trust me because I know about that. I sold the electricity company and I can tell members that did not go down very well. I was involved with variations to the waterfront plan and I can assure members that they did not go down very well. 
Sometimes leadership is very difficult because one believes that one is making decisions with more information and more facts than the public have and that one is privy to certain things the public is not privy to. That is when one has to make difficult decisions; that is called leadership. Leaders should not make difficult decisions with the belief that the public are dumb. I sense that this bill suggests to members of the public that maybe they are not as smart as they think they are. I think that is wrong. 
I do not believe that Parliament is showing leadership by having this debate. I cannot figure out why we are having a debate on this bill. Surely Parliament has bigger things to debate—things that would make New Zealand a heck of a lot of a better place than it is—than whether we should make it a criminal offence to smack our children because we believe that that will lead to thrashing and bashing and everything else. 
If people were looking from the outside at this debate and they saw the level of hysteria in this Committee they would actually think we were having a debate on capital punishment. Maybe a debate on that would have the same level of hysteria we are seeing in this argument. 
I cannot believe that this Parliament has managed to alienate so many Kiwis. Parliament is sending Kiwis a message and it is not the sort of message I honestly believe we want to send them. It is a message that says: “Hey we don’t really care what you say. We believe we can enter your family home. We believe we can enter that sacrosanct area and do a better job than you can of making decisions on how you develop your family.” 
I say to Sue Bradford that I still do not understand why we are having this debate. When I read the many many emails that had come through I saw that thousands and thousands of people did not understand the issue. This debate does not seem to make one bit of difference in getting us to where we all want to go. We all want to stop child abuse and bad parenting. I do not see this bill making a difference in that area. 
There are too many Kiwis being disenfranchised at the moment because of the decisions being made and the debate we are having. This is not happening just in New Zealand. Some of the emails I received were very relevant. I want to draw attention to one I received on 7 March from Jeremy and Alison Coleman. It reads: “Dear New Zealand MP. We are expats considering returning to New Zealand with a significant interest and investment in the well-being of our children. We are watching the passage of Sue Bradford’s anti-smacking bill with great interest. It is evident if mood can be read from the New Zealand media that the majority of New Zealanders are also opposed. The passage or failure of this bill will certainly influence our decision to return to New Zealand.” So we are seeing messages not just from New Zealand but also from overseas. 
SUE KEDGLEY (Green) 
: 
 I am becoming heartily sick of opponents of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill the essence of whose argument is: “Don’t tell me what to do in my home. My home is sacrosanct. The State shouldn’t tell me what to do in my home.” Well people are not allowed to beat their spouses in their homes so why should they be able to beat their children? They are not allowed to sexually abuse their children in the sanctity of their homes so why should they be able to physically abuse their children in the sanctity of their homes? 
Every one of us pays when a child grows up in a culture of violence. We pay for it in the crime statistics in jails that are crowded and in a police force that is stretched by trying to cope with crime and with people who do not feel safe in their homes. Day after day in this Chamber we see opponents wringing their hands about the violence in this society—wringing their hands about the need for more police more jails and so forth. But the very same people are not prepared to support legislation that seeks to reduce the culture of violence in this society and that is what this bill aims to do. 
This bill aims to strike a blow at the culture of violence in our society and at the abuse of children which is what section 59 is about. Section 59 legitimises violence; it justifies whacking children and that is why its opponents are so appalled about its removal. They do not have any reason other than that it removes the justification the legitimacy for whacking children on a routine basis. 
I know somebody who has spent most of his life in jail. As a child he was beaten by his father who was a fundamentalist Christian and who said that he had a right to beat that child because the child had the devil in him and the father was whacking the devil out of him. Not just this person—who has spent most of his tragic life in jail—but all of us have paid for that upbringing of violence. We have all paid into the amount—in paying for prisons in paying for that child’s life in and out of jail and in paying for the police to have to arrest him on a routine basis. 
I was talking to someone else who was routinely smacked as a child—not beaten but just smacked. He said in looking back now that it drained him of his trust in his parents and his trust in the world. He said that over the years he lost his joy in life and his innocence. Sure the guy survived—and that is what everyone says: “Look I was beaten as a child; I survived.” We have some outstanding examples like Dr Pita Sharples who has survived intolerable beating and is now an example and an inspiration to us all. Nevertheless I suspect that he would say the same thing—that all of those beatings and all of that violence drained him of his trust of his innocence and of his joy in life. 
I believe that opposition to this bill is very much driven by very passionate and well-intentioned fundamentalist Christians who really believe that they must beat children and not spare the rod in order to beat Satan out of them. What we are hearing here are excuses—excuse after excuse—from people who say they have a right to smack and who want to have their right to smack legitimised and sanctioned in legislation. All this bill is doing is undermining that sanctity and legitimacy of violence and it is striking a blow at the culture of violence in this society. 
If people are seriously concerned about violence in our society—as most Opposition members claim that they are—then it is frankly incomprehensible that they would oppose this bill. I would like to pay a tribute to people with the courage of Doug Woolerton. 
COLIN KING (National—Kaikoura) 
: 
 It is a pleasure indeed to rise and speak on the purpose of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. I am looking at the title of the bill and I have an older copy of the legislation here from when it was reported back from the Justice and Electoral Committee. I think it is quite appropriate to have this copy because it illuminates one or two of the aspects that have been discussed tonight. The original title reads: the “Crimes (Abolition of Force as a Justification for Child Discipline) Amendment Bill”—quite a mouthful.  
Let us look at clause 3 the “Purpose” clause. It originally read: “The purpose of this Act is to amend the principal Act …”. This is quite interesting because the provision that was taken out was the very driver of this bill when it went to the select committee. It was to “abolish the use of reasonable force by parents as a justification for disciplining children.” That was changed to “make better provision for children to live in a safe and secure environment free from violence by abolishing the use of parental force for the purpose of correction.”  
It strikes me very clearly that this bill is in actual fact an anti-smacking bill. It is being proposed totally to undermine the parental choice—which has been a part of society—of parents taking responsibility for rearing their children in a caring and loving manner. It says there “for the purpose of correction.” So on that basis we can all support the comments that are coming forward around doing away with abuse and violence. I find that it is still very hard to come to grips with the fact that this bill is no more than an anti-smacking bill being promoted by this Government and as such it has set about to undermine totally the responsibility in families of the mums dads and carers of those children.  
I would like to take members through some thoughts. Everybody has the right to have a different view on things. Some people oppose any sort of physical chastisement and we appreciate that. Some people insist on a great deal of parental scope to discipline as they see fit and we accept that. However the majority—a huge number—of New Zealanders sit in between those two camps making their own choices but allowing for the notion that other parents should be allowed to choose differently within boundaries.  
Really it comes down to the question of what is reasonable. On that basis it becomes quite clear to me that Chester Borrows’ amendment certainly does measure up to the opportunity there of stating what parental control of children by limiting the use of force for the purpose of correction is about. It is very appropriate that he goes to the lengths of explaining that it would be inappropriate to use a weapon at all or an implement if it is inflicted by a means that is cruel degrading or terrifying. So on that basis I find that Chester Borrows has moved to a situation that 80 percent or more of New Zealanders are perfectly comfortable with. Many people will be at a loss to understand what exactly is “unreasonable” about a defence that is an action of being reasonable. 
This bill is really about a Government that is trying to tell the public that it knows best. We have had to put up with a tremendous amount of “We know best.” Fortunately I sense a degree of frustration on the benches on the other side of the Chamber there because those members know that they are on the wrong side of the argument. The public itself is giving a very clear message as to what it believes.  
Really if we wanted to do something quite serious about this situation we would be doing away with the situations where it is quite clear that New Zealanders are at risk—where there is alcohol abuse drug abuse and stress associated with the poverty that has grown since this Government came into power and where mum’s live-in boyfriend is a threat. The gentle smack of correction on the bottom has done nothing to damage children. 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 I stand in this Chamber as one of the MPs who was accused by the media of not supporting this bill. With the exception of one radio journalist last Saturday no media person has ever come to me to ask me whether I support this bill. I am now on the record as fully supporting this bill as it came back from the Justice and Electoral Committee. I had concerns when this bill went to the select committee. However as often happens in this House careful and wise consideration by a select committee has meant that changes have been made to this bill that in my view have presented us with a very fair and reasoned bill. 
It is important to remember one thing: it is currently illegal to hit anyone be it an adult or a child in this country. Section 59 of the Crimes Act allows a defence. When I was at primary school—and I was at school with some people in this Chamber—we were strapped we were hit around the legs with wickets and we had quite an amount of physical punishment exerted against us as the teachers had to keep us in line. At high school I received five on the backside quite a number of times for discipline reasons. Those forms of discipline are no longer legal. The education system has not failed because of that. 
We now have a situation where the defence used by individuals under section 59 has led to confusion about what one can and cannot do to a child. In my view the fact that a jury ruling upheld a defence that allowed a child to be whipped is something we cannot stand by and allow to continue. That is why I support the passage of this bill. In fact if there is any criticism it might be that this bill does not go far enough. Anyone reading the bill will see that performing the normal daily tasks incidental to good care and parenting will still be allowed. Some people might say that we have not banned smacking that we still allow it and therein lies a danger of allowing a defence when arguably some child has been abused. 
I think the select committee has done a good job to come up with a balanced bill that will move this issue forward. I cannot in all good conscience stand in this Chamber and not support a bill that will attempt to remove a defence that has time and time again allowed parents to abuse children to beat them and to stand in a court of law and say they are allowed to do that because of section 59. That is abhorrent. It is something that this Parliament has to do something about. This bill while not perfect will allow parents to discipline their children in order to prevent them from getting into harm to prevent them from harming others and to perform “the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting”. 
The thing that really saddens me is the amount of energy that is being used up and down this country to demand the right to hit a child. If only we could turn that energy and demand that every child in this country be loved be cared for and be given a chance then we would be doing something. I cannot understand so much energy going into demanding the right to hit a child when the problems we have relating to child abuse are beyond comprehension for a country that tries to consider itself a fair and just society. 
I am happy to support this bill as a step forward to try to address the issue of child abuse up and down this country. It is not perfect; it does allow for smacking in the normal parenting of a child in this country. 
ANNE TOLLEY (National—East Coast) 
: 
 We have heard a great deal of debate already on this bill the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. I have heard things from the Government benches like: “We must pass this bill to change attitudes.” “We must pass this bill to draw a line in the sand.” and “This bill is about taking a stand striking a blow.” I say to Government members that they are absolutely right. Up and down this country mums and dads grandmas and grandads aunties uncles and cousins—you name it—are changing their attitudes. They are drawing a line in the sand and that is why we are seeing the energy that the previous speaker Damien O’Connor talked about; they are sick and tired of this Government telling them what to do. They are sick and tired of a nanny State Government reaching into their living rooms and telling them how to look after their children. That is the change in attitude—they have had enough of this Government telling them what to do. If Government members want to change the attitudes of New Zealanders they should keep on doing just what they are doing. 
Up and down the country 84 percent of New Zealanders are rejecting this bill. They know that this bill does not do a jot to address the appalling record of child abuse in this country. This bill does not do a thing. It does absolutely nothing. We have a Government that is paralysed by the appalling figures of child abuse. We have a Minister in charge of Child Youth and Family Ruth Dyson who is more interested in spin than in substance. She is far quicker to appoint public relations people up and down the country to spin out what a great job she is doing than she is to appoint highly qualified professional people at the front line to do the job that needs doing in this country. I say to Ruth Dyson that this bill will not do it. If we are serious about attacking child abuse in this country this bill will not do a thing. 
I sat on the Justice and Electoral Committee and listened when people from organisations like Barnardos and Plunket made their presentations. Those people are working at the front line of child abuse in this country. Of course they want the Government to do something. They are asking this Government to do anything because it is frozen. The Government and the Minister have no idea of what to do to address child abuse. The Government will pass a bill like this it will do a television campaign and tell people not to hit their children and it thinks it will all go away. The Government is bereft of ideas and it is time it went. 
I have absolute sympathy for the desire to get rid of the defence currently in the law in section 59. I brought to my caucus pictures of a child who had been beaten with a wooden stick by his father. They were horrific. That father used section 59 as a defence. I want to speak in support of the amendment in the name of my colleague Chester Borrows because his amendment addresses what is wrong with section 59. Chester Borrows’ amendment takes away the defence used in a number of pretty horrific cases and I think it deserves the support of this Committee because it protects the hundreds of thousands of good Kiwi parents who know the difference between smacking their child and bashing their child. 
 We have heard a lot of rhetoric in this Committee but there is a huge difference between giving a child a smack and bashing a child. No one in this Committee supports bashing and thrashing children—no one in this Committee does. But if we are serious about doing something about our appalling statistics of child abuse then we must recognise that passing a law that the people who commit that violence do not even know about let alone understand will make no difference in their lives. 
Child Youth and Family workers themselves talk about some of the common factors they see in families where child abuse takes place. They talk about things like poverty poor housing indebtedness neglect and that cycle of violence where smashing people is a norm—smashing people not a tap on the bottom saying “Do not do that again.” or a smack on the hand saying “Don’t do that again you’ll burn yourself.” That is the difference. People on this side of the Committee who are supporting Chester Borrows’ amendment understand that New Zealand parents in the main are good parents. 
SUE BRADFORD (Green) 
: 
 While we are still dealing with clause 3 of my bill I would like to specifically address the Chester Borrows amendment as we will be voting on it at the end of the debate on this clause. I fear a lot of the debate has not been around that even though Mr Borrows’ amendment is quite significant. 
Hon Members 
: It’s clause 4. 
SUE BRADFORD 
: It starts at clause 3. Mr Borrows’ amendment is seriously flawed and in fact it negates everything I am trying to achieve with my bill.  
In 2004 the House of Lords in the UK moved a similar amendment to Mr Borrows’ amendment. It told people in the UK how to hit their children but that they should not hit them too hard. I will quote a couple of things from an article in the  
Guardian 
 in 2004. A health visitor in a poor part of London who has witnessed many tactics used by parents to conceal the injuries on children said: “They’ll pinch behind the ears they’ll hit the soles of the feet they’ll hit the head because the hair will cover it up but the injuries are worse because the brain rocks from side to side.” Another paediatrician at Birmingham Children’s Hospital said she often sees unmarked but badly hurt children. “ ‘There are injuries that are quite nasty that don’t leave any marks at all. Often with impact injuries you do see reddening but a blow to the abdomen doesn’t leave any superficial marks at all the child just starts to vomit.’ Very small babies may show no superficial bruises or redness – ‘then you do an x-ray and there’s a fracture on the thighbone then you x-ray other bones and you may find multiple fractures.’ ” She then goes on to say: “Bruising will be still more difficult to detect on a dark-skinned child.” and to explain that it is possible to look with an ultraviolet light to see whether anything has happened to a dark-skinned child. The article goes on and on.  
I am quoting this horrible stuff because that is what one gets into when one tries to define the ways we can and cannot hit hurt assault or smack children which is what Mr Borrows is trying to do. I know Mr Borrows is very well intentioned. He knows the realities of what sadly happens to some of our children and he is trying to deal with the issue. But the way that he is dealing with it is extremely unfortunate. The best torturers in the world know how to hurt people without leaving a mark. Mr Borrows’ amendment sends a message. If it is passed the Parliament of this country will send a message that hitting and hurting kids is OK as long we can hide it and get away with it. How much evidence can a 1-year-old baby give about the nature of the beating or the breaking of its bones that it has just received? Children are not protected by Mr Borrows’ amendment. What if the head or neck of the body is hit? Any part of the body can be hit. The amendment does not protect children in terms of their age. Babies young people and teenagers are not protected by Mr Borrows’ amendment. All children babies and teenagers could be subject to violence.  
The amendment betrays our international obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Even Sir Geoffrey Palmer who assisted Mr Borrows in drafting his amendment has made the comment publicly that if Mr Borrows’ amendment is passed it would actually be in contravention of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.  
A similar standard to that proposed in Mr Borrows’ amendment was set in Canada in a judgment of its Supreme Court. The result is that even major assaults have been judged to be transitory and trifling as per Mr Borrows’ amendment.  
If passed Mr Borrows’ amendment would send a public message that hitting our kids is OK. It would undermine all the fantastic work that has been done by the SKIP programme and all the church and community groups around New Zealand that are trying to support parents to learn alternative methods of bringing up our kids that do not involve violence. If we have the State legalising violence and defining what level of violence is OK and the nature of that violence it undermines every single one of the groups that are trying to help parents to learn other and better ways of bringing up kids than hitting them.  
I have been criticised by some members for the fact that I have stated all along that should Mr Borrows’ amendment succeed during the Committee stage I will discharge the bill. They have said that will mean I will somehow be undermining parliamentary democracy or committing other sins against the House. I will make a few comments on that. The Standing Orders explicitly provide that a member in charge of a bill—whether it is a Government bill or a member’s bill—can discharge that order of the day at any time. Some members are suggesting it is undemocratic to fly in the face of the rules by saying that if the Chester Borrows amendment is passed I will discharge the bill. In fact that suggestion flies in the face of the rules that we operate by in this House and that govern our behaviour. The ability either to stay with or discharge a bill is the prerogative of any of us who have a bill before the House. In fact in this term of Parliament the right to discharge a bill has been exercised so far a total of 10 times in relation to both Government and members’ bills.  
I did not ever want there to be any doubt amongst MPs or the public about my intentions should Mr Borrows’ amendment succeed. I feel that if it succeeds that would be one of the worst possible things that could happen for the children of this country. It would completely contradict and undermine my original purpose in putting forward this bill. I sincerely hope that enough other members will understand why having the State in this country define and specifically legitimise the level and nature of the force we can use on our children would be nothing short of a total disgrace. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 I want to do something I did not expect I would do which is to commend Sue Bradford for at least being honest with this Parliament about what her bill the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill does. What she has effectively just said to the Committee in her explanation is that it is too hard to define what is a smack and what is abuse so her bill goes the full hog and bans smacking. I agree with her. I direct my criticism at the cynical spin from the Prime Minister and the Labour Party who somehow pretend that this bill does not ban smacking. 
What goes to the heart of trust in our democracy is that politicians do what they say and say what they mean. Ten days before the last general election the Prime Minister when asked on the radio whether her Government would support a ban on smacking did not say no; she said absolutely no. That is what she said. This cynical Labour Government will now break that word and use every cynical trick it can find to try to ram this bill through Parliament. That is wrong. I say to Labour members opposite that not only is their measure wrong but they are undermining the basic trust on which our democracy is based. 
I turn to the substance of the bill because I heard so many speeches in which members said we need to send a signal about abuse. If those members were giving a speech or if they were writing a parenting manual I could well support them. If the Prime Minister wants to give a speech and say there is too much child abuse in this country I and I think every member of this Committee would say “Hear hear!”. But we are not writing a parenting manual; we are writing the Crimes Act. We are determining those New Zealanders who are to be classed as criminals.  
 I will not support a bill that turns 70 percent of my constituents who as responsible parents occasionally smack their children into criminals. We must not do that. I also appeal to this Committee that in this country of ours a huge number of disputes over custody happen when families are split. 
Hon David Benson-Pope 
: That member would know about that. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: The member wants to bring my own personal circumstances into the debate. Yes I know about that. He is a grubby member who would do that. I say to David Benson-Pope that I am proud of the fact that I have a very cooperative relationship with my former wife and we work hard together for the interests of my two children. 
I have to say as a member of Parliament that not a Saturday constituency clinic goes by where I do not see parents fighting parents and this bill is going to throw petrol on the fire. We know already that too many relationships between ex-partners become incredibly acrimonious to the disadvantage of children. By introducing this provision into law affidavits galore in which smacking is alleged will be filed in the courts and relationships between children and parents will be broken down and cut out because of those shenanigans. That is wrong. 
The approach that has been taken by the very practical and sensible member Chester Borrows is the right way forward. I have read cases where people who assaulted children should have been convicted. The provisions of section 59 are to date too broad. What Chester Borrows does is rise to the challenge of this Parliament to define properly that which is abuse and that which is a reasonable smack in the course of disciplining children. I plead with this Committee to take on board that amendment which provides a middle way forward. I say to Sue Bradford that what she presents is an extreme position. The fact that after over 12 months’ debate on this bill 83 percent of New Zealanders do not support her makes this bill undemocratic.  
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 The only acrimony in relation to this bill—this fine Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill—is from those people who are putting their head up in the clouds like that member there. The fact that this bill is just about defining the difference between smacking and clubbing people is something we have to be clear about. It is about making provision for children to live in a safe and secure environment. We have heard all this high-handed stuff that like the king without any clothes abuse does not happen. Chester Borrows’ stuff is totally confusing. This bill is explicit.  
We have heard all this prattle in defence of people being allowed to smack their kids. People like Mr Bennett know that this country’s refuges are full of Maori women and kids who have been thrashed and bashed by other people. Those members do not want to talk about that. It is outrageous. Dr Sharples was dead right. Opposition members want to head us off from trying to have a smack-free community. They do not want that. Police do not arrest parents at the moment for tapping or smacking their children.  
Who supports this bill? It is Plunket the Maori Women’s Welfare League and all those organisations that are at the interface and that patch up all this smashing and bashing. People say that smacking is OK but the whole nation cried and decried the actions when the Kahui twins were lying dead. When other babies were killed we all went “boo hoohoo”. We have a clear chance with this bill and I commend Sue Bradford for the courage she has shown. This woman has stood in front of those damn politicians in years past and decried them for what they have done. She has had the courage to stand up on behalf of children and declare that there are people in this nation who want to protect them. Who protects a child’s rights? This bill helps with that. What about the parents who do not care about children’s rights and disguise the bashings they give? What about them? That is OK. I hear enough banter and prattle in this Chamber about the Department of Corrections and our full prisons. How come it is OK to deny children their rights? How come? Children get brought up in cultures and societies where they get thrashed by their parents and have welts on their buttocks and legs. Where do the children turn? Who can they tell about the damage the fear and the hurt? Who do they tell? This legislation is good governance. It is a great Government that does this in support of mothers and kids.  
We can go on and on. Nick Smith says that he wants to ensure that the rights of a certain percentage of his constituency are defended. What about the defence of the kids? What about the defence of all the women in refuges? Who is defending them? We are playing this game again that abuse does not happen—that the killing and the murder and the smashing of women and children does not happen by what are supposedly just minor incidental slaps. Let us believe where that heads off to. I want people to think about it. What they are condoning is what is happening in this country and what everybody else is denying.  
An amended section 59 will not ban smacking and it will not make criminals out of decent parents. There are decent parents. But I ask members to take a snapshot in their mind of the kid who has been hit tonight whether that kid is 5 10 or 12 years old. Who does that kid talk to? Who can that kid tell that he or she has just got the bash? Who? What would Nick Smith do about that? There are kids who quiver and shiver in their houses because people are left to run riot and beat them up.  
Let us cut to the chase. All of a sudden we are trying to be amenable and correct and to show political correctness about not banning smacking because it is a parent’s right. Let me ask the question again: how do we defend a child’s rights? How do we defend a battered woman’s rights? How do we do that? We put a marker in the ground like we did about having no smoking in restaurants. Everybody went “boo hoohoo”. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 Straight off the bat I want to talk briefly about two former colleagues of mine Brian Donnelly and Doug Woolerton. Although I support wholeheartedly their democratic right to vote whichever way they want to I say especially to my friend Doug Woolerton that I get a bit wild in this debate when accusations are made that normal parents—the majority of New Zealanders whether they be black white red or green—are child beaters or abusers. That is what I have no truck with. 
Hon Member 
: No one said that. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Well if the member had been in the Chamber while Doug Woolerton was speaking she would have found out that that is what Doug Woolerton actually said. [ 
Interruption 
] Yes it was. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I do not want to interrupt my honourable colleague but I do point out that it is the convention of this Chamber not to refer to anybody’s absence. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I agree. The contributor transgressed there. I would also like Mr Henare to come back to the bill. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: During the debate while I have been in the Chamber I have been accused by the former member for Whanganui of being an abuser. I find it absolutely disgusting that the member used this debate to accuse me—and most probably every other decent working-class parent—of being an abuser. 
 Sue Bradford said that the best torturers in the world know how to hide their handiwork. For God’s sake! This is not Iraq. Every parent is not Saddam Hussein. Every parent is not a member of Al Qaeda. I respect Sue immensely. I have worked with Sue in a past life and I respect her immensely. But the problem I have— 
Peter Brown 
: That explains a lot. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Peter Brown says that that explains a lot. Well I tell you what—no I will not; I will keep to what I am saying. The fact of the matter is that this bill would not have stopped the Kahui twins from being killed. 
Jill Pettis 
: How do you know that? 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Because the murderers of the Kahui twins would not have given a toss about what the legislation was. They were bent on murder. This bill would not have stopped them. This bill would not have stopped all the murderers of our babies and of our children. So do not pretend—[ 
Interruption 
] The Hon Brian Donnelly says to get rid of our murder laws. 
Hon Member 
: No he didn’t. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: Yes he did. 
Hon Member 
: Be honest! 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am asked to be honest. I think that is actually a breach of the Standing Orders. Is it OK—[ 
Interruption 
] I have raised a point of order Mr Chairperson and three people have intervened while I have been speaking on it. The Speaker today booted people out of the Chamber for just that transgression. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I too am trying to get into the debate. But yes I remind members that it was a point of order they clearly heard that it was and that means that they keep quiet. It has been a pretty robust debate. How about you continue Mr Henare. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: I raise a point order Mr Chairperson. As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted the Hon Brian Donnelly said something. I have repeated in the Chamber what I think he said. Now I am being told that “Be honest!” is not what he said. I seek leave for Brian Donnelly to say what he actually said to me during my speech. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: The member cannot seek leave for another member to do anything. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I have to dispose of the point of order that is on the floor. I dispose of it by saying that we will leave it at that. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I did make an interjection. The Hon Tau Henare half-quoted what I said. He did not quote the whole thing. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: These are all points of debate but I thank both members for raising them. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: What was the other half? 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I believe that within the Standing Orders there is a provision that if one has been misquoted within a speech— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: A member can raise this issue at the end of a speech not during a speech. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: This bill will do nothing to save the lives of the babies who get thumped and who will continue to get thumped; it will do nothing. With the new section 59—or the “no section 59”—there will not be hordes of people out there running around the town saying: “Hey this doesn’t apply to me so I’m going to thump my kids when I get home because it doesn’t matter. ”  
I do believe what Nick Smith has said that some separations are acrimonious. Boy watch the sparks fly then! There are also neighbours who hate each other. For God’s sake! We have seen it on reality TV. One neighbour will say: “Oh here we go. Now this is really good. Let’s—” [ 
Interruption 
] Oh whatever! For God’s sake! I have five children and I know what I am talking about. Some people do not have children and they should shut up especially when they do not know what they are talking about. I have brought up five children with the help of my wife and we have done a great job. I am proud of my kids. The fact of the matter is that I did not abuse them. [ 
Interruption 
] I did not say that that member does not have any kids but her leader does not have any. Those members can dish it out they can call me an abuser but they cannot take it. And when they cannot take it they get all mad and stupid. 
Hon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. As discussed earlier I was quoted by Tau Henare. By way of explanation I say that he quoted only half of what I said and therefore gave quite an inaccurate rendition of what I said. What I actually said was that our murder laws do not get rid of murders and I asked therefore whether we should get rid of our murder laws. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Thank you Mr Donnelly. 
JUDY TURNER (Deputy Leader—United Future) 
: 
 I rise to tell members of a huge fear I have regarding this bill. It is a fear that nothing I have heard in any speech tonight has reassured me on and a fear that for me originated in a meeting I had with a very reputable non-governmental community organisation just after I came into Parliament. When talking to highly qualified social workers I was asked to provide some assistance with a case they had. This was a case of a family that the social workers had been dealing with for 2 years. Their contact with the family had started when the couple approached this organisation because their six children had just been removed by the Department of Child Youth and Family Services and understandably they were devastated. Department staff went to the house and discovered that it was a bit of a mess and that mum was suffering from low-level depression which explained the level of neglect the children were experiencing. So they put in a team cleaned up the house organised some support services around mum and got her back on her feet. Then the parents went back to the department and said: “OK can we have the kids back now? We have got the situation sorted.” This concerns a reputable provider. 
Two years later when I am sitting in the office these six children are still not back with their parents. They have been split up from each other and are living in separate foster homes. The very youngest ones have bonded with their foster parents who are now applying for permanent care. I could not believe that something like that could happen in New Zealand. There was no accusation of physical or sexual abuse members should remember; this was just neglect—and very low-level neglect. 
 My fear around this bill is that the people who will be policing it the most are employees of the service called Child Youth and Family. This service requires a very low burden of proof—compared with the New Zealand Police—when its staff make an arrest or get a conviction. This service has only to suspect that a child is at risk in any shape or form—and members should remember that with the passing of this bill the bar as to the definition of what constitutes risk will drop to smacking. Child Youth and Family will mostly be called in to respond the police will make referrals to that service—that is the current arrangement—and the service will go in. 
I had a very interesting email today—one of many emails we are getting—from a woman who suggested to me that Sue Bradford is about to harm the very people for whom she stands in this Chamber year after year and claims to be an advocate for. They are some of the most disenfranchised and marginalised people in this community. The woman wrote: “As the mother of preschoolers I have my personal views which have changed since I had children. But whether I choose to smack or not to smack or whether anyone does isn’t the issue. I know that as a middle-class woman in a happy marriage my chances of being prosecuted for smacking are practically nil. But I have another perspective. As a criminal lawyer who has both prosecuted and defended people charged with assaulting a child I think the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act will have disastrous and unnecessary consequences for a small group of people. The people who will eventually suffer from the repeal of section 59 are the most vulnerable and powerless members of our community and their children.” 
I am hugely concerned because since that incident I described earlier I have taken an active interest in the work of Child Youth and Family. Barely a week goes by when I do not receive an email or a letter from a concerned set of family members about the way that that service has handled their case. I do not know and I am not equipped or resourced to determine whether the cases I receive across my desk are viable—whether they would stand up to investigation. But let me tell members about one common denominator across those cases—and this is what really scares me about this bill. The common denominator in the cases I get is that the people who write to me and ring me on the phone are largely poorly educated and poor at literacy do not express themselves clearly and do not have the necessary skills to make their cases. 
This lady is right. If ever an accusation was taken against her she is well able to defend herself and nothing will happen to her should she choose to smack her child. She will cope with that situation and defend herself well. But the people I deal with week in and week out I cannot even write to the Minister about.  
CHRIS TREMAIN (National—Napier) 
: 
 I rise tonight to speak to the purpose of the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Bill. In particular I start by replying to Parekura Horomia who spoke earlier. He is a Maori member of the Committee who got up and spoke extremely passionately tonight. I reply to him with a whakatauki: tihei mauri o-ra! Hutia te rito o te harakeke. Kei whea te komako e ko? Ki mai ki ahau he aha te mea nui o te ao. Maku e ki atu he tangata he tangata he tangata. 
[ 
Behold the force of life! Draw out the centre shoot of the flax and what will become of the bellbird? Ask me what is the greatest thing in the world and I will tell you three times over that it is mankind. 
]  
That whakatauki talks about family. It talks about the harakeke—the flax bush—and it talks about the bellbird that sits in the flax bush. It says that when one takes away the heart of the flax bush one removes the home of the family. This is what I see us doing with this bill today.  
I believe that I represent middle New Zealand. I am a family man with three children—a 10-year-old an 8-year-old and a 6-year-old. Tonight I want to speak from the heart about those children. I see this country becoming a nanny State. I will tell members a story about when I took my daughter to kindergarten to go on a confidence course. I set up the course for her sat down and took her in my arms then opened my arms and told her to go. Away she went around the confidence course and back again. A group of other children were lined up beside me—a whole lot of other little girls and boys who wanted to go on the course. The next little girl climbed into my arms and I started to ask myself whether it was right for her to be there. Was it right for her to be in my arms? 
The message that it is not OK to hug children in a playground was sent from Parliament from this Chamber. This is the situation we are going through. The Prime Minister has never stood up and given a strong message about that. We have a similar crazy situation regarding men on aeroplanes. It is totally unacceptable that there is now a policy in this country that children travelling alone on aeroplanes cannot be seated beside men.  
I will get back to the purpose of the bill. The substitute section 59 takes away the rights of good upstanding families in this country who have done amazingly well. Eighty-three percent of people in this country support the view of the bill taken by members on this side of the Chamber—83 percent.  
I will talk tonight about cases where section 59 was totally unsuccessful as a defence where reasonable force was considered to have been exceeded and where a charge of assault was upheld. I found 15 cases since 1985. In only four of those cases in the last 21 years was section 59 used as a successful defence. But I want to talk about a case where the use of section 59 as a defence was not successful that of  
Sharma v Police 
. A defendant was convicted of two offences one of which was assault on a child. He had struck his 9-year-old stepson three times. Initially the defendant was found guilty and he appealed against that conviction. Although the section 59 defence was available to the appellant the judge was unable to see how the two linked together in that particular circumstance. Mr Sharma could not justify his use of force which had gone to the lengths of a slap to the head as well as further blows. Section 59 was not able to be used as a successful defence. 
That is the case. By amending section 59 we are removing the right of parents to care for and look after their children in the way that 83 percent in this country know is best. That is unacceptable. 
TIM BARNETT (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
RON MARK (NZ First) 
: 
 I rise to take my first call of the evening in this debate and before I go any further I have to say that I respect and support totally the right of New Zealand First caucus members to vote as they see fit on conscience issues. I respect and support totally the right of any member of this Committee to stand up and vote as that member sees fit according to conscience and I totally stand against anyone who would force any member of Parliament to vote against his or her conscience. I have said enough there. That includes everybody in this Chamber.  
I want to dispel some of the myths that have been spread about this bill. Myth No. 1 is that the bill will create a safe and secure environment that is free from violence for all children in Aotearoa New Zealand or indeed on planet Earth. It will not. Myth No. 2 is that the police will not investigate every case that is brought to their attention. The truth of the matter is that the police will have to I tell Mrs Bradford. They will have to do so because one of the fundamental core policies that the police are pursuing in their drive to reduce crime is to act on every reported incidence of family violence and that is something that the Green Party the Labour Government the New Zealand First Party the National Party and the ACT party all support. The police understand fully their responsibility to act on every complaint of family violence. To say now that they will not do so is not true. It misleads and deceives and it is a myth.  
Mrs Bradford in making the comment in this debate that the best torturers in the world know how to hide their work in so far as I am concerned was saying that every person in this Chamber who has ever smacked one of his or her children is a torturer and should be considered and legislated against as though that member were a torturer. Let me tell Mrs Bradford what a Green Party member said about torturers in an article that he wrote some years ago “Cambodia liberated: victory for humanity”. Her colleague Keith Locke wrote: “He rode into Phnom Penh on a Honda and as a lone figure in black pyjamas came to a halt in front of a line of Cambodian armoured vehicles it was hard to say who was more scared.” That man who trumpeted the victorious actions of the Khmer Rouge does not mention that when the Viet Namese liberated the city of Phnom Penh which was previously a city of a million people they found 75 people there. That was torture I say to Mrs Bradford; that was condoning violence I say to her.  
Smacking children in order to protect them from danger—the type of discipline that I would imagine every member of this Committee who is a parent might well have had to resort to as a last resort—is not torture. It is very disappointing I say to Mrs Bradford that one has to stand up and condemn the idiots who have sent me some of the emails that extol why I should vote against this bill in support of their views—emails that I regret and wish I had never read. The people who have written those emails to me fit into exactly the same category as Mrs Bradford now does by daring to imply that everybody who smacks his or her child is a torturer or condones torture. That is as emotive and misleading as some of the opponents of her bill have demonstrated themselves to be by the claptrap that is cluttering my computer.  
I turn now to the warnings from Tau Henare. Let us just watch to see how litigious matrimonial settlements become now. We all know that the firearms community talks ad nauseam about the best way to pay back a husband who has a few hunting rifles he loves if he is in an acrimonious settlement with his wife: the wife tells the police she is scared of her husband and he has all his firearms taken away. There is not one case not 10 cases and not 50 cases but hundreds of cases of that. Members cannot sit there and tell me that men and women who are locked up in acrimonious settlements will not use their children and under this legislation start to claim that one of the reasons for separating is that the husband or wife has smacked their children. 
JILL PETTIS (Labour) 
: 
 Mr Chairman I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
GERRY BROWNLEE (National—Ilam) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We had a motion from Mrs Pettis that was inappropriately worded according to the Standing Orders. In any event I seek the call. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: No I have yet to consider what was put here. I accept the motion in the way it was put albeit it was slightly off the actual wording that is specified. But the wording was sufficient for me to understand the motion and I accept it. Also we have had 2 hours 45 minutes on this tiny clause. I want to be very fair on this. We have had over 30 contributors and the essence of the bill is in the next clause. It is my judgment that members really want to get to that clause. I will accept the motion from Jill Pettis. 
TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Independent—Mangere) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. With due respect my understanding is that the wording used in the motion has to be accurate to the letter. If you Mr Chairman start to change that then that will endanger how Chairpersons and Speakers have treated the issue of a closure motion. I raise real concerns in regard to that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I do not think that point needs to delay us. I have accepted the wording as put by Jill Pettis. I am quite comfortable with it and I intend to put that motion.  
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly Woolerton); Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 1 (Dunne); Progressive 1 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 5 (Brown Mark Paraone Peters Stewart); United Future 2 (Copeland Turner); ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Field 
Motion agreed to. 
GERRY BROWNLEE (National—Ilam) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This is obviously a very important bill and for that reason—although I am not wanting to sound as if I am trifling with the Chair at all—we have a considerable concern about the ability of the senior Labour whip to cast a full vote on this particular bill. Information has come to us about the potential for the Labour Government to be well over its allowed number on leave. Of course we would accept the assurance of the whip but we are just a little concerned that that may be the case at the present time. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Thank you for raising that Mr Brownlee. The convention and the practice is that the word of the whip be accepted. If the vote was very very close then there would be areas one could go into. The vote is not close in those terms—it is 63 to 58. I intend to accept the word of the whip as to the number that he used. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 86 in the name of Chester Borrows to clause 3 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 58 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 5 (Brown Mark Paraone Peters Stewart); United Future 2 (Copeland Turner); ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Field 
Noes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly Woolerton); Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 1 (Dunne); Progressive 1 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 3 be agreed to. 
Ayes 63 
New Zealand Labour 49; New Zealand First 2 (Donnelly Woolerton); Green Party 6; Maori Party 4; United Future 1 (Dunne); Progressive 1 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 48; New Zealand First 5 (Brown Mark Paraone Peters Stewart); United Future 2 (Copeland Turner); ACT New Zealand 2; Independent: Field 
Clause 3 agreed to. 
The House adjourned at 10 p.m.