Flavell Te Ururoa: Legal Services Bill — Third Reading 
Flavell Te Ururoa: Legal Services Bill — Third Reading 
[Volume:671;Page:17779] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson reo Maori te korero. No reira ko taku i te tuatahi he whaiwhai haere i nga korero a etahi ki a koe tena koe hoki mai ki te Turu o te Speaker 
.  
Ko taku he mihi ki a koe kua eke ki tera o nga taumata no reira kia ora rawa atu. 
I a matau e titiro ana ki tenei pire te Legal Services Bill kare matau i te titiro whaiti nei ara ki te ma me te pango. Ko ta matau titiro he tirohanga whanui kia taea ai te titiro ki te hohonutanga o nga take penei i tenei ki mua i te aroaro o te Whare. Kei te putake o ta matau titiro o nga whakaaro o te Pati Maori e penei ana. Mena ae ranei he painga to te punaha a-ture ki te hunga whakaraerae o te hapori. Ki te tika ma te awhina a-kupu ma te awhina a-roia ano hoki. No reira kei te whakaae atu matau ki te whakaaro kia whakamatauria nga roia i mua o ta ratau noho i te rarangi roia. He pai tera ki ta matau titiro ki o matau whakaaro me pera rawa te tika o te reo Maori. 
Tuarua ka tino harikoa matau mena i whakaae te Minita ki te whakahoki i te putea mo te Maori Legal Service. Engari kare tera i eke i eke panuku. Ka toru ka nui te hiahia kia noho pu te komiti awhina a-hapori kia whai wahi te hapori ki roto i nga whiriwhiringa. Ko te public advisory committee 
tera. I a matau e titiro ana ki etahi atu o nga take kua noho awangawanga te Pati Maori ki te whakakorenga o taua komiti ara ko te public advisory committee 
 
 ara te ropu e awhina ana i te Legal Services Agency mo nga manukanuka o te hapori mo te awhina a-putea awhina a-noho awhina a-matauranga ranei ki te hapori ki tetahi wahanga ranei o te hapori taku e korero nei; ki tetahi atu take ranei ka tae atu ki mua i te aroaro o te Minita i te mea ko te iwi Maori te hunga kimi awhina hia awhina ana i te nuinga o te wa. 
Kua tino titiro matau ki te putake o te pire me te titiro ki nga take kua puta mai i roto i nga korero kua korerohia nei i te mea te tikanga me haere nga painga ki te iwi Maori. Hei whaiwhai haere i te korero a Dame Margaret Bazley e korerohia ake nei “if the legal aid system fails Maori it fails altogether.” 
Koina tana korero. No reira na nga awangawanga i mua mo te legal services 
  
he pai ke atu mena ka taka te hunga nei ki raro i te Paremata. He pai tonu tera ki a matau penei i ta Keith Locke e korero ake nei. 
Engari ko tetahi o nga take i korerohia i roto i te Whare he take nui whakaharahara ki a matau ko tera e pa ana ki te wahanga tuarima i te wharangi tuatahi ara e ki ana ko nga rawa e hangai tonu ana ki te whenua Maori. Me penei pea te whakamarama ake i roto i te korero a Dame Margaret Bazley mo te legal services. Ehara i te mea i korerohia ehara i te mea i puta etahi akiakinga e hangai tonu ana ki nga moni o tena o tena otira te whakamatautanga o te moni me nga kaitono me te nui o te moni a tena kaitono a tena kaitono. 
Ko te whenua Maori he take nui i roto i te tirohanga o te Ao Maori. Me ki e mea ana ko wai matau a Maori nei. I roto i tetahi o nga whakatauki e ki ana “Noku te whenua no oku tupuna”. No reira ara noa atu nga korero i roto i te pire nei e pa ana ki tenei mea te whenua. No reira koinei i puta te manukanuka nui i kitea mai ai e noho he kupu i huna nei i roto i te wahanga tuatahi o tenei o nga pire ara i te wahanga tuarima e mea ana ka whakaaetia kia titiro te komihana ki te rawa me te moni ka puta na runga i te ahuatanga o te whenua Maori. Mena ka titiro ki te wahanga tuatahi i tona whanuitanga kei te kite atu kei te whakaaetia kia titiro whanui ki tenei mea o te moni o te putea o nga rawa a tena a tena a tena; kia taea ai te whakamatautau mena ae ranei kaore ranei ka taea e tetahi te utu nga nama mo te awhina a-ture. 
E mea ana te wahanga tuarima o taua wharangi tuatahi mena ka tapirihia mai ko te putea me o panga ki te whenua Maori ka mutu ka taea te whakatakoto i tera momo whiriwhiringa i roto i nga whakahaere o te koti a-whanau nei. No reira he ahua uaua te whakamarama ake i tenei i te reo Maori engari ko te tino putake o taku korero he rereke ano ra te titiro ki tenei mea te whenua Maori na runga i te mea he tirohanga to te Ao Pakeha taku e korero nei. Na ehara i te mea ka titiro a Maori nei ki tona whenua ko tetahi wahi ki tena tangata ko tetahi wahi ki tera tangata ko tetahi wahi ki tera tangata kao. He titiro whanui. Ehara i te mea ka pera tonu te titiro o te Ao Maori ki tona whenua. Ehara i te mea ko te panga ki te whenua he take a-putea nei a-rawa a-whai rawa nei kao. He titiro a-tikanga nei a ka mutu i etahi wa ka puta te korero e kore nga Maori e hoko i tenei mea ko te whenua i te mea ehara nona tera whenua he whenua no nga matua no nga tupuna. Ko te nuinga o nga tangata ka whai panga ki roto i te whenua Maori ehara i te mea ko te rawa te mea nui ehara i te mea ko te moni te mea nui i te mea kei te mohio tonu ko nga painga ka taka ki nga tamariki ki nga mokopuna a te wa. Ka mutu ki te ata wetewete i enei take i roto i nga koti he uaua. He mea nui tera. No reira ki roto i a Te Waiariki i tenei wa e hia ke nei nga whenua nga poraka whenua Maori ki roto i te rohe o Te Waiariki o Te Tai Rawhiti ano hoki he moumou moni he moumou taima noa iho te whaiwhai haere i te hunga ka whai panga ki tenei mea ko te whenua. Ka mutu e hia ke nei nga Maori kare i te mohio he panga whenua to ratau. Kao. Kare ratau i te mohio kei te noho huna a ratau korero mo te whenua kei roto i te Koti Whenua Maori. No reira he uaua rawa. I whakatakotohia e te Pati Maori tenei take ki mua i te aroaro o te Minita engari auare ake. I whakatakoto i te korero ki mua i nga pati o te Whare Paremata kare i eke panuku inapo hoi ano ehara i te mea no te kore hiahia engari kare i eke. 
Ka mutu hei kupu whakamutunga pea ki tenei o nga kaupapa kare tenei wahanga e paku awhina i te iwi Maori ahakoa ko ratau te hunga e kimi awhina ana i roto i te koti. Ko ta matau ke ko te ki atu me pana atu tera me ukui atu tenei wahanga i roto i te pire kia taea e te iwi Maori te hunga e whai panga ana ki te whenua Maori nei te kimi awhina i roto i nga whiriwhiringa kia taea ai e ratau te tono mo tetahi awhina i roto i te koti. Koina te mea nui mena ka whakatapirihia atu te whenua Maori ki te rawa kua nui ake te putea ka mutu kua raruraru katoa te iwi Maori mena ka tono pera ra. Kia ora tatau. 
[ 
Greetings Mr Assistant Speaker Robertson. I am giving my address in Maori. But first I want to add to the complimentary remarks by others before me by welcoming you back to the Speaker’s Chair. I commend you on attaining that position. Well done.  
When examining the Legal Services Bill we did not take a narrow and simply black or white view of it. Instead we looked at it broadly so that we could get an in-depth understanding of the issues in it such as the ones before the House. Central to our view and the thoughts of the Maori Party were the following issues. Was the legal aid system beneficial to vulnerable members of the community yes or no? In terms of justice would these vulnerable ones have access to it through legal advice or representation as well? So we agree with the view that lawyers should sit competency tests. We see that as a good thing—a correction to our way of thinking. I have to express that properly in Maori.  
Secondly we would have been really delighted if the Minister had seen fit to reinstate funding for the Maori Legal Service. But that did not happen; it did not make it to the top. Thirdly we dearly wanted the public advisory committee retained to ensure community involvement in the consultations. As we examined the issues we of the Maori Party became concerned about the abolition of the public advisory committee which assists the Legal Services Agency that gives advice on community concerns in terms of funding housing or educational assistance to the community or a section of it or any matter referred to it by the Minister or that comes before him. Maori people are the ones who seek assistance or want help most times.  
We have taken particular interest in what this bill might offer in terms of addressing issues that have emerged in the speeches delivered here because without a doubt any benefit should go to the Maori people. As Dame Margaret Bazley said “if the legal aid system fails Maori it fails altogether.” That is what she said. Given previous concerns with the Legal Services Agency it would be a great improvement if it came under the scrutiny of Parliament. We really favour that occurring. It is quite like what the member Keith Locke said previously. 
One of the issues that was debated here in the House an issue of huge significance to us is the one that relates to clause 5 of schedule 1 namely resources relating to Maori land. Perhaps what Dame Margaret Bazley had to say in her review of legal services explains it better. It was not as though it was discussed that pressure was focused specifically on the money that this person or that person had or that the disposable income or capital of this applicant or that applicant should be assessed.  
Maori land is of huge significance in a Maori World view. It refers to our significance as a people. A phrase in one aphorism states “The land is mine; it is from my ancestors”. So there are many references in this bill to this thing called land. Hence it was with some concern that we discovered tucked away within schedule 1 of this bill the proposal in clause 5 of the schedule that allows the commissioner to look at the equity and income of Maori land. If schedule 1 is considered in its entirety one will see that it allows a wide look at the income and assets of individuals; and the making of an assessment yes or no as to whether one can afford the costs involved in legal aid.  
Clause 5 of schedule 1 proposes that the income and one’s shares in Maori land be applied in the case of a proceeding in this family. This is quite difficult to explain in Maori but the point I am trying to make is that when it comes to this thing called Maori land there is a different view on it because the non-Maori viewpoint is quite different. That is what I am saying here. Maoridom does not view land from an individual perspective—that is one part for that person and one for someone else. Absolutely not. It is a broader perspective. To the Maori it is not an individual thing. Shares in the land are not about money assets or having equity. Not at all. It is essentially a viewpoint based on a lore handed down—end of story. At times statements are made that this thing land is never sold by Maori people because it does not belong to them but rather to the elders and the ancestors. Many Maori people have shares in Maori land but assets are not the important thing here nor the income generated but rather the knowledge that any accrued benefits will drop down to the children and grandchildren of the future. Furthermore unravelling issues like these in courts is quite a difficult process. It is a huge task. So the situation in the Te Waiariki electorate currently is that because there is a vast amount of Maori land and numerous blocks in the Bay of Plenty and East Coast regions a lot of time and money is wasted chasing up people who have shares in this thing called land. And many Maori do not even know they have land interests—end of story. They do not know that their information about the land is tucked away in the records of the Maori Land Court. So it is difficult. The Maori Party took this matter up directly with the Minister but to no avail. We put it before the other parties in Parliament last night but it never reached the threshold. But it was not for want of trying that we did not get the desired outcome.  
As a closing statement perhaps on this bill this part of the bill will not help Maoridom at all not one bit even though Maori are the very ones who are seeking assistance in the court. We advocate that this part of the bill be excluded and deleted to enable Maori tribes and those with land interests to apply to the court for assistance. That is the important thing provided it can be tacked on to Maori land where the equity exceeds the money in hand; otherwise Maori will be in trouble big time through the application process. Greetings to us 
.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ross Robertson) 
: I call the honourable member Simon Bridges.