Salesa JennyHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government): I'd like to just acknowledge the questions that have been asked and given that the Finance and Expenditure Committee are currently considering the Water Services Entity Bill I know that much of this information is being traversed at committee level as well.Firstly to the broader question of the range of reform. I acknowledge that we are a progressive Government that have a number of priorities that we're trying to address in a way that local government in particular will be feeling the burden and the weight of a range of reform expectations. But when we think about the challenge that we inherited— which was effectively for example the lack of investment in social housing—and then trying to look at some of the challenges that we would need to address in order to ensure that councils through the resource consent and planning process could make that whole process better to enable housing obviously the Resource Management Act reforms become the topic of focus. We know that the planning and consent system was very slow and needed to be improved to enable greater spatial planning and urban design to be able to be implemented for that purpose. It's not an easy fix; I accept that.Also integrated investment in infrastructure becomes another core area of focus when we think about roading we think about connectivity with rail communications and also water infrastructure to underpin what is going to be a necessary objective for New Zealand to unleash regional growth potential. We know that the system needs to be improved there.So I'm not saying that any of the reform programme enables us to have an easy fix but it's a necessary set of objectives and challenges that the Government are confronting to better ensure that regional growth can take place we can enable greater investment in housing smart urban design we can look at resilience factors because we need to look at what's happening with natural weather events—and actually when a natural weather event happens and stormwater waste water seeps into your stormwater system and then into your rivers streams and oceans that's when you know that we don't have a resilient network. These are the challenges that we're trying to fix.In terms of working with local government that is the reason why I've established an oversight group to try and bring some of this reform into focus and look at those critical areas where we need greater alignment so that we can have the conversation with local government.In terms of service delivery I really want to focus on the three waters area and bring it all back to the Estimates debate. That is why we've invested funding to enable councils to engage with the transition support funding to help them work through some of the necessary aspects that will be critical to enable them to better ensure that standing up water reform in their favour is done in a way where they can assure themselves that their staff that their committing to working alongside the national transition unit are supported to help in very practical ways smaller councils for example being able to reap the benefits of the reform that we're engaging in.Now the member asked—and he probably characterises a lot of what the public ask—What is the problem that we're trying to fix?" It's simple: an unsustainable model of financing infrastructure. The situation that councils are dealing with right now is always having to make trade-offs between what they're funding in their long-term plans. Often because pipes under the ground aren't as attractive as museums as libraries as community centres and as pools and the like councils are always having to make a compromise in terms of what they're funding. Quite frankly the under-investment in infrastructure over a long period of time—over a long period of time; at least two or three decades—has led us to the point that we are at which is: unless we find a financially sustainable way of investing in infrastructure we are going to continue to under-invest in a way that will only mean more pipes bursting and busting in our communities and I don't want that to happen.The other inefficiency of the current regime is that you've got 67 councils delivering water services and in and of itself it's not efficient but probably at a more granular level not all councils can afford the types of experts that you would want for a high-performing system. If we look at the reform that the Government is promoting a high-performing system means that we can consolidate and professionalise the workforce in a way that everyone can have access—and by "everyone" I mean the whole country can have access to professional peak bodies that are geared towards being able to enable a better focus on water infrastructure. Now other countries do that but we can't because of the state of the current situation that we're in.The member also points to the figures of $120 billion to $185 billion required over the next 30 years to invest in water infrastructure and that was a result yes of a study undertaken by the Water Industry Commission for Scotland (WICS). Now this isn't just any tinpot organisation; it is an organisation that has been looked to by European nations many across the EU many northern nations certainly Ireland and many countries as an expert in their area. Now when they put out the $120 billion they also identified that this figure came from councils themselves and what information councils could offer up. That's a really important point. You'll recall in my initial contribution never before have we had a coherent comprehensive set of information in relation to water infrastructure; now I cannot say that we do now but we know a hell of a lot more now than we did four years ago. Because we have got an international expert organisation helping us to better understand the state of our water infrastructure network we can continue to do better in terms of the information that we gather and the like. The $185 billion is if you factor in for example the unique features of our geography the fact that we're on a tectonic plate.But some of the challenges—and it will be evident as the member and members of the select committee investigate those reports like farrierswier and GHD that peer-reviewed the WICS study they will say that some of the shortcomings are for example in the area of climate change. How can you fully cost the impact of climate change in relation to a resilient water infrastructure network when you're starting from a very low baseline of information? That isn't information you get. But we shouldn't fear it; what we should so is say "OK if our long-term objective of going down the path of reform is to build a more resilient water infrastructure network for the whole of New Zealand where everybody has the right to have clean safe water and then we're improving our investment in our plants our waste-water treatment plans that will have a positive impact on our environment our stormwater systems smart urban design using the natural features that we have in the area we can then continue to get more information around a resilient network." That's where I hope we get to.I also want to come back to the question around consultancies because there is an assumption that we have a range of consultants at our disposal in areas where actually we haven't ventured into the level of system reform that other countries have had. So one of the things that we have to balance up—one the public sector doesn't have access to all of the requisite skills that are required to help us through the analysis neither does local government so we do in some key areas have to get consultants. I wish we didn't; I wish we had a strong public service that includes central and local government where the experts are all there. That is not the reality. So we have had to go out to market in some critical areas to help us along the way.The other question that the member raises is in relation to the public information campaign. I do note that assumptions have been made that the public knew about the state of their water system or perhaps had access to more information than in fact they did. A lot of people to a large degree don't really know the health of their water system until they don't have access to water or the water is brown or it tastes funny or there's a leak outside of their house or when they turn the tap on nothing's happening and it's not happening for a long time. That's the extent of the public knowledge around their water and the health of their water infrastructure network. So we're kind of faced with trying to ensure that we've got good communications going to people who at a very surface level that's the extent of knowledge they have of their system. To elected representatives who we would believe would have greater knowledge but actually around a lot of council tables they contract out the decision making in this critical area to consultants. So even many of our elected representatives didn't have the granular level of knowledge that we're debating in this Chamber today. [Bell rings] Madam Chair?CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): I've already given you two calls; I will come back to you Minister after I give Simon Court a call. Thank you."