Mallard Trevor: Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill — In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeMallard Trevor: Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill — In Committee[Sitting date: 16 October 2013. Volume:694;Page:13951. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South): The first point I want to make is that I hung back a little bit from making the first of my four contributions on this part of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill because I anticipated given the long list of questions that the Minister for Communications and Information Technology had been given that she would get on her hind legs and attempt to respond to them. But I am afraid that what I was thinking of was the old promising Amy Adams—the Minister who was on the way up. Well what we have now is a Minister in charge of this shambles a Minister in charge of the Chorus network shambles and the Commerce Commission override shambles and the Minister in charge of losing Peter Dunne on environmental legislation. What we see is a Minister in charge of this bill who is clearly someone for whom all of her potential is behind her. In the old days when it was in front of her she would have got up on her hind legs and she would have responded to some of the questions but not today.There is a particular case to do with the definitions that I want to put to the Minister. I think that she is aware of the school in west Auckland that is currently running a network with the help of one of the IT entrepreneurs whom I know she knows relativelywell and Mr Joyce knows as well. He is doing it pro bono and they are working through that school in order to provide to the parents in the immediate area a wireless service of high quality a lot of bandwidth and a reseller-type arrangement but at almost no cost to the parents. In fact with the very small amount of money that comes in the school is making some money out of it because of the way it is configured. In fact in the future the school might even make some money out of franchising the arrangements so that other schools can do them and so that parents in similar communities can get very very cheap internet through the bulk buying arrangements that are available.The question that I want to ask the Minister is whether that school is a network operator. Sorry I am afraid that at the moment the Minister does not appear to be focusing. Is that school a network operator under the definition in this bill? Does it have to register with a person appointed by the Commissioner of Police or not? They do not. The Minister says that they do not. Well how can you tell from reading this? You cannot tell from this because according to the definition the school has customers because “customer” is defined as “ … a person who receives telecommunications services from and has an account or billing relationship with a network operator”. These people—these parents who live in the community—get billed by the school. They pay through the school. The service is provided through the school. What is a school if it is not a network operator? It is clearly a network operator.I want to refer to another one. I know this might go to the point of being nit-picking or looking into the fine print but I think that is our job. As part of the Committee stage we must go through the bill line by line by line. Since when has an email address been a number? This bill purports to tell us that an email address is a number. Well you know I am probably one of the least technologically aware people in this Parliament but I know that an email address is not a number. Why should this Parliament mislead the people of New Zealand through its legislation and tell them that an email address is a number? Because it is not. My email address is trevor.mallard@parliament.govt.nz. I know that is not a number. I have got the Minister’s number and I know that that is not a number. And so—Chris Hipkins: What about the dots?Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Sorry?Chris Hipkins: What about the dots?Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Are the dots numbers? I do not think dots are numbers.Chris Hipkins: Decimal points?Hon TREVOR MALLARD: Well it is an interesting point and I look forward to the Minister’s particular comments on that.Could we go to the question of a “telecommunication device”. It says this means “ … any terminal device capable of being used for transmitting or receiving a telecommunication over a network;” and it includes a telephone. Well for people of my generation back in the day you would wind it round and hear someone say “Working working.” You used to have party lines inWainuiōmata back in the old days. In fact we thought it was enormous progress when we got numbers that had four digits. In fact now they have the numbers “564” in front of them to indicateWainuiōmata. The point that I am trying to make is that there are a number of devices where it is not clear whether they are terminal or not. I have had a number of cellphones that have been terminal—generally when I have dropped them or put them in a puddle—but is a device that forwards a message terminal or not? Well I would tend to say it is not a terminal device but I would also tend to say that the Minister is trying to capture it under this definition. Is a device that is capable of forwarding a message terminal or not? It is notthe end of the line because the message keeps on going. So that is another point that I would like to ask the Minister.The next question I want to ask goes to the question of the registrar. The registrar is a person who is appointed by the Commissioner of Police—I will just get the exact words because “appointed” is not quite the right word. Oh no—“appointed … under section 68”. I will not go into clause 68 but the person who does the appointing or the indicating of the individual officer is the Commissioner of Police. The question that I want to ask the Minister is whether we are satisfied with that. Are we satisfied that any old constable could be the registrar? Are we satisfied that a civilian employee of the police could be the registrar for these purposes? The registrar for these purposes is something that is a very very serious job. It is a job with enormous powers. A rejection by the registrar could close down Vodafone in New Zealand tomorrow or Chorus or Telecom or any one of a number of companies and 3degrees—I mean 2degrees; it was 3G that I was thinking about. Do the members know that I was part of the first trial of 3G in New Zealand? The phone that I used as part of that trial—Phil Twyford: It’s in Te Papa.Hon TREVOR MALLARD: —when I was Acting Minister for Paul Swain—no it would not fit in Te Papa it was so big. It needed its own massive van to move this particular—I presume it was a terminal device although—Moana Mackey: How old are you?Hon TREVOR MALLARD: At least twice the member’s age.The other point that I will make while we are on the subject of devices is that the first cellphone that I owned had a handset a big black one and it had a dial. It had a strap that went over my shoulder and it was a man bag. It was about that long and about that high and about that wide.Hon Clayton Cosgrove: Did it have a crank?Hon TREVOR MALLARD: No the home phone had a crank. But the point that I am making [Interruption]—Well it was not a party when Helen was on the line.