Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 01 August 2012. Volume:682;Page:4155. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
8. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development 
: What was discussed at the three meetings she has had with Australian company Taylor Fry known for its actuary services to the insurance industry? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister) 
 on behalf of the Minister for Social Development: What was discussed was the contribution that Taylor Fry could make to measuring the future cost of the benefit system as one tool for helping to provide a sound footing for the investment-based approach to the welfare system. Taylor Fry provided Ministers with a wide range of information and advice. We expect the initial public valuation to be publicly released relatively soon as we are making good progress on trying to evaluate the future cost of the current population on welfare so that we can take a more active approach with investing more public money in order to reduce the future cost. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Why has Australian firm Taylor Fry been commissioned at a cost of up to $1 million to undertake an actuarial valuation of the welfare system in New Zealand given that her department produced the  
Future Liability: Estimating time on benefit and the associated cost 
 roughly 18 months ago? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Because the Ministry of Social Development does not actually have the kind of expertise that will allow the Government not just to calculate the future costs but to differentiate the population. We want to move away from the model overseen by that previous Labour Government which was to put money in the bank accounts of the most vulnerable New Zealanders and leave them to it. The Ministry of Social Development is good at that; it is not good at this so we used some experts. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: What evidence does the Minister have to suggest that her department is currently failing given that Cabinet is suggesting a radically different funding model whereby “a portion of … Social Development’s baseline funding could depend on their performance in meeting a target for reduction in the future liability.”? [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I do not know what the “Ohs” are about. The department does its best with the tools that it has. It happens that that has left us with 320000 people at least on benefits 170000 of whom have been there for 5 years and 100000 of them have been there for 9 of the last 10 years. I know the Labour Party does not think we can do better than that. We believe we can and we are willing to invest $1 million in Taylor Fry and more important $200 million in the last Budget in doing more for the most vulnerable population which is the young mothers of young children. That decision is directly connected to the investment approach informed by these experts. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Why is the Minister proposing to decrease her department’s baseline funding if there is growth in the number of people on a benefit who need support to move into work and increase its funding when there are fewer people who need this support as proposed by her Cabinet papers and how does this represent an investment approach? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I am not surprised that the Labour Opposition with its history of feeding off the misery of so many long-term beneficiaries cannot quite understand— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I find it difficult to accept that that was an answer to the question asked. The question was seeking an opinion as to why the Government was doing. The Minister should come to the question asked. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well the investment approach does not consist necessarily of more money technically going into the departmental baseline which is what the Labour Opposition would do. This is about spending more money on the beneficiaries. The best example I can give the member is that we have identified 2800 young New Zealanders under 18 who have children. We are investing roughly $5000 to $6000 per head in those 2800 young people to get them qualifications to get them decent housing and to protect them from violence and drug addiction and we believe that is a sound investment in reducing our long-term welfare cost. That will not appear in the departmental baselines. It will appear in another part of the estimates but it is a significant investment that we believe will be effective. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Can he confirm that the number of people on the domestic purposes benefit and the unemployment benefit was lower under a Labour Government than since he has come into office? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I can. I can confirm that which just confirms that on “Planet Labour” there was no global financial crisis. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Can she assure the House that she is the one with the primary responsibility for the investment approach funding agenda when other Ministers have signed off every single Cabinet paper on this issue with one in particular signed off by Bill English as finance Minister Bill English on behalf of the Minister of State Services and Bill English on behalf of the Minister for Social Development? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The Minister of Finance is a—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise to the Minister. If the question was asked in seriousness the members asking it should be silent enough to hear the answer. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well one would expect that such a busy and influential Minister would have his signature all over the place. What I can say on behalf of the Minister of social welfare is that—[ 
Interruption 
] Was it? Mr Speaker I better start again. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I would be very grateful. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I can assure that member that the Minister for Social Development is applying all her energy and capacity which is enormous to solving welfare problems that the Labour Party did not care about and could not solve.