Goldsmith Paul; Robertson GrantHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you Madam Chair. No I don't recognise that at all. I'm not quite getting a clear reply from the Minister. It may be discretionary that a licensing authority may decline to renew a licence but this legislation gives them the power to decline a licence if it is consistent with the local alcohol policy.Anna Lorck: That's the reason for it.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Yes I know and the question I'm trying to get from the answer is how he thinks that is justifiable. Maybe people don't seem to understand it but if you're operating a business where you have your life savings in that business and you're trying to figure out whether to continue to invest in that business so it doesn't look scrappy or you want to put some money into it over the horizon you have potentially zero confidence that you will be able to carry on that business next year because the licensing process could take your legs out from underneath you in a way that is not related at all to your conduct in any way. When it comes to renewing a liquor licence if a store or a restaurant with a liquor licence has a terrible reputation keeps on breaking the rules is a centre for endless riots and trouble and strife and has a reputation for selling liquor to 13-year-olds and all that sort of thing I think everybody would understand that it would be justifiable not to renew the licence.But what this bill is doing means that if somewhere in the process a liquor or alcohol plan suddenly decides that there shall be no stores within a kilometre of a school for example—which they could—when your licence comes up for renewal and you've been for 50 years 800 metres from the school suddenly you could be out for no other reason than that. What I want to understand is not whether it may or may not happen; it could happen. The point is that under this legislation it could happen and there would be no way back. So how does the Minister justify that?My second question as I have another two minutes is around clause 12A where we're talking about special licences and again any person may object. I'd be keen to hear from the Minister some examples of special licences where this might take place. So you know you're trying to organise a wedding somewhere in a unique position somewhere out in the bush or whatever out the back of Coromandel with a special licence and you can have—Hon Scott Simpson: There's some very special licences in the back of the Coromandel.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: You could have a special licence out the back of the Coromandel for a special event and once more that busybody from Invercargill can come along and object. So I just want to know whether he thinks that's practical or reasonable.The next one is section 203A Licensing committees must establish appropriate procedures"—this is in clause 14. This legislation brings in a new rule. It does not permit parties or their representatives to question witness of other parties. So I'd be interested to get a clearer understanding of the thinking behind that. So if anybody is wanting to renew their licence—say you're in Auckland and you've been in business for a long time and you're wanting to renew your licence—and our friend from Invercargill turns up and says "You're a crook" or "You're a bad influence on the community and you keep selling to under-age people" or whatever this bill is saying that they should not be allowed to be questioned in any way. That's it—they say their thing there's no questioning there's no cross-examination and there's no way of testing that in any way. I'd just like to understand the logic behind that.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I'll be brief because we are covering ground that I've already covered here. I think the member betrayed himself a little as to what's going on here when he described the local alcohol policy as liquor plan rather than a local plan—rather than a local alcohol plan. That's the point.Hon Paul Goldsmith: You got me.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That's the point though isn't it Mr Goldsmith because this is about reflecting the views of the local community. So when and if a local alcohol plan is developed—and the whole reason we're here doing this is because it's been very hard to do that under the legislation as it was passed—it will be reflective of the local community and therefore when it comes time for a renewal of a licence you would expect that to take into account the views of the committee as now articulated.And that would be my answer to the last part of the member's approach as well. This is ostensibly a bill to make sure that the community's views are heard and that people have an opportunity to do that in a way that is fair and is not about distorting market competition. That is because these are the problems that have existed in the community since the legislation was passed.So I think the member is philosophically coming at the bill from the opposite direction—which doesn't surprise me because it would be consistent for the member to do that—of the purpose of the bill which is to facilitate greater and better community participation. And Madam Chair I think I've answered his other questions."