English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:625;Page:20450] 
9.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Does he have confidence in the Secretary for Education and the chief executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority; if so why? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 It has not been my practice either as Minister of State Services or as Minister of Education to indicate confidence or the lack thereof in any person for whom I am not the employer. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that Ministers have refused to express confidence in Karen Van Rooyen chief executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority that he expects her to be sacked shortly and that the Government plans to roll the authority into the Ministry of Education under Howard Fancy? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think that I am responsible for the first and the last of those three questions. I have not until today been asked directly to express confidence and there are no such plans at the moment. 
Bernie Ogilvy 
: Will he consider merging the New Zealand Qualifications Authority the Education Review Office and the Teachers Council into one body called the “Education Standards Authority” which will be charged with maintaining standards throughout the education sector rather than restructuring the Ministry of Education and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority as the Associate Minister of Education has suggested; if not why not? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I am not sure that the Associate Minister has suggested that at all. I think that he has done what I have done which is to say that we are waiting for a report from the State Services Commission Treasury and the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. When we receive that report we will consider it. 
Deborah Coddington 
: What as Minister of Education will he take responsibility for given the crisis in education in New Zealand at the moment from the wananga on life support the Tertiary Education Commission funding dodgy courses the Teachers Council having no confidence in teachers schools fund-raising to buy textbooks the New Zealand Qualifications Authority damned by two inquiries to the Ministry of Education under fire or has he moved on from the Westminster convention of ministerial responsibility? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I am left with some passion about politics and I am not running away. What I want to make clear is that we have an education system with some of the best participation rates—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Please would you just lower the noise level so that everyone can hear. 
Simon Power 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I fail to see how abusive comments hurled in the direction of the questioner are in any way relevant to addressing a question under the Standing Orders. I raised this matter with you in respect of another question yesterday. This is becoming a pattern that will result in disorder from all sides of the House unless Ministers are reined in when they are answering questions. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: One of the difficulties is that when in asking the question additional comments are also put in the chances are that we will get responses accordingly. I accept what the member has said. I have let some of those comments go in questions because I think that it is important to get the question out. But I would just ask all members to show some restraint in terms of both asking and answering the question and to stick to the main point. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Deborah Coddington’s question was entirely in order. What you have suggested is that somehow Deborah Coddington’s question was out of order. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: No I was not suggesting that. I am clarifying that point for you at this stage. I was not suggesting it was that member. I was taking the general point. I am sorry about that. The member misunderstood that. 
Rodney Hide 
: The situation we have is that we take great care. The question was entirely in order but the Minister’s answer was entirely out of order. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Let us hear the Minister’s answer because he did not complete it. 
Rodney Hide 
: No let us hear him apologise and withdraw for the abuse that he hurled at someone who was asking a legitimate question in this House. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: As I recall the Minister said that he was passionate about education. Was that the matter that the member is objecting to or was it the next sentence? 
Rodney Hide 
: No it is not. I will not repeat it but I can tell you that I took offence at what he said. I think that he should be asked to withdraw and apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have difficulty because I am not entirely sure what he said. I heard him say he was passionate and was not running away. I am not sure whether they were the matters at which offence has been taken. Again this is one of the difficulties that we are having. If people express themselves loudly it is very difficult to hear exactly what is being said. We will take the next point of order but I would like the Minister to be able to at least fully answer the question in silence. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is on the same point. The fact is that this issue has now become very serious indeed as far as the way in which this House is run. You have just said that you did not hear all the Minister’s comments or perhaps you heard them and did not recall them. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I heard two of the comments. 
John Carter 
: Well you would be one of the few people in this House who did not understand what the Minister said and the implications of what he was saying. They were quite derogatory quite unnecessary and certainly well outside the Standing Orders. We do expect you to make sure that you keep control of this House. If you are not hearing and understanding what is being said then you will not be able to control this House. That will lead to this House being unruly quite honestly and we will find that we get into all sorts of trouble. Minister Mallard made quite a derogatory remark about Deborah Coddington that was absolutely unnecessary. He should have been pulled up by you when he said it and asked to address the question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I hope that the member in making those comments was not threatening the Chair. I will not take those comments to have that implication but they came close to it. One member cannot ask on behalf of another member for a withdrawal but if Deborah Coddington did take offence then the Minister should withdraw his comment. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: On the point of order Madam Speaker one member may not ask for leave on behalf of another but in fact when a member makes a discreditable reference to a member of the House it is actually an insult to the whole House and any member may object. Even if the member himself or herself is prepared to let it run if other members raise objections that is correct. So with the greatest respect you cannot rule that it is OK for a Minister to make a discreditable reference to a member of Parliament unless that member objects. That is not the correct ruling. What this Minister did has been drawn to your attention. Mr Mallard makes it not quite an invariable but a general practice to start his answers with a comment that in this case comes I think under Standing Order 370(2)(c): “discreditable references to the House or any member …” but normally comes under Standing Order 370(2)(b): “arguments inferences imputations …” etc. In fact he did start his answer in that way. A number of members have objected. The quickest way to proceed with question time would be to ask the member to withdraw and given the level of objection apologise. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thank the member for his contribution. The Speaker’s ruling relied upon was 40/7: “It is not the Speaker’s duty to intervene if objection is not taken to the language used by one member towards another unless the Speaker considers it is such language as requires the Chair’s immediate intervention.” In that instance I did not accept that the language was such that it required my immediate intervention. Another member has raised that point. I ask the Minister therefore in those circumstances to withdraw and apologise. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I withdraw and apologise. I am passionate about my job. I like results. During the term of this Government we have the highest participation rates and the highest quality early childhood education in the OECD. We have Programme for International Student Assessment results that are right at the top of the OECD and on value for investment are the best. We have very high participation rates in tertiary education. We are working on quality right through the system and I intend to keep on doing that. 
Hon Bill English 
: Will the Minister tell the House whether he has confidence in Mr Howard Fancy who has overseen a blowout in bureaucratic spending in his own ministry widespread charging of fees in State schools requirements for parents to front up with $200 million a year for their children’s free education widespread rip-offs in the tertiary sector unexpected financial problems in the wananga and polytechs and plummeting public confidence in the secondary school qualification held by over 200000 young New Zealanders as well as all major education agencies being under performance reviews because of the mess? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: As I said in answer to the original question it is not my practice and will not be my practice as Minister of Education or Minister of State Services to express confidence or lack thereof in State servants who are not my appointments. 
Hon Bill English 
: If the Minister will not express a view of confidence in Howard Fancy and Karen van Rooyen does this mean that rather than officials being to blame it is actually Ministers who are to blame for a succession of high-profile policy failures in education; and will he and David Benson-Pope promise to stay on in their jobs to remind the public continually what a mess Labour has made in education? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: There have been some enormously good results in education and I promise that David Benson-Pope and I will work hard for the next 5 years in this area as education Ministers if the Prime Minister lets us. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister not realise that not only would it take a lot longer than 5 years to clean up his mess but also he now has so little credibility with New Zealand parents that he should not be allowed even to try? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I unlike the member spend quite a lot of time in schools and talking to parents. Parents tell me—and teachers tell me—that the education their kids are receiving in their schools has never ever been better.