Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:647;Page:16462] 
9.  
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Does she agree with Work and Income principal health adviser David Bratt that the department was very aware of doctor-bullying and that “It regularly gets brought to our attention”; if not why not? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Associate Minister of Social Development and Employment)  
on behalf of the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Bullying of doctors is unacceptable whatever the circumstances. Work and Income actively encourages any doctors experiencing any issues with beneficiary clients to talk to it so that they can work together towards a solution. Close working relationships between Work and Income and local doctors are absolutely essential and that is why every region of New Zealand from a Work and Income point of view has a dedicated person whose job is to support general practitioners in the community. 
Judith Collins 
: Can the Minister explain why a principal health adviser at Work and Income has confirmed that the department is very aware of doctor-bullying and that it is regularly brought to its attention when in September of last year her predecessor told my office and the Office of the Ombudsman that it could find no evidence of doctors being bullied and that there was no evidence of doctors being put under pressure to sign off people for sickness benefits? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I guess it is because in recent times there has been a much greater level of engagement between Work and Income and general practitioners and their representative organisations to work on this issue of how we move more people who are on sickness and invalids benefits at the present time back into the workforce. That is why I suspect he would have answered in that way—because there is a much greater level of dialogue now to try to resolve this issue. 
Lesley Soper 
: Who is responsible for deciding whether a person is eligible on medical grounds for a sickness benefit? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: The answer to that question is doctors. Work and Income case managers have no medical training and should never try to determine whether a person is too sick to work. Doctors are the only people who can test eligibility for a sickness benefit. We rely on their skills to make that assessment and it is very important that they are supported appropriately to make that professional judgment. 
Judith Collins 
: Can the Minister explain why her predecessor claimed that a search of the ministry’s correspondence from January 2006 through to June 2007 found no evidence of doctors expressing concern over being pressured to sign people off for sickness benefits yet today we have the principal health adviser claiming that such concerns regularly get brought to the ministry’s attention? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: From my understanding of it the member’s request referred to letters of complaint and correspondence from doctors about their feeling bullied and when that request was put through the system no actual letters were found. We have been having conversations obviously with general practitioners— 
Hon Bill English 
: Ha ha! 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I tell Mr English that it is not a laughing matter; it is a question of engagement with the sector. It is very important that we do that to try to help people. What has happened in that regard is that the information is now available. The quote that the member gave from the principal health adviser at Work and Income related to a specific locum who had raised concerns about what he had experienced at a place where he had been doing some work; it was not a comprehensive report which is what the member referred to. 
Judith Collins 
: Does the Minister agree that doctors and medical groups have repeatedly said they are under pressure to sign off able-bodied people for the sickness benefit; and now that her department has also finally admitted that will she commit to releasing the information that her predecessor claimed did not exist? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Able-bodied people should not be signed off for a sickness benefit. General practitioners are given responsibility for that matter; they make their professional medical decisions on it. We have been working with them to give more clarity around the issue of medical certificates. Since 2005 we have encouraged general practitioners to get a second opinion if they are not happy. In the case of bullying which the member has mentioned the second or third question on the form that general practitioners are asked to fill out specifically asks whether they are the best person to make the decision and whether a second opinion should be sought from a specialist. Next month we will be releasing a handbook to assist general practitioners in making decisions about whether people are too sick to work. 
Judith Collins 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I do not believe that the Minister addressed the issue as to whether the Minister for Social Development and Employment will release the information that her predecessor claimed did not exist. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I thought the Minister did actually address the question quite fully. 
Judith Collins 
: Is it not true that the doctor referred to in the  
Dominion Post  
today is just the latest in a long line of doctors to claim that they have been pressured into signing people off for sickness benefits; and now that the Minister’s department has finally admitted it will she commit to reviewing the assessment process for sickness and invalids beneficiaries in order to prevent it from happening? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Taking the last point first I have already said that we have a new handbook for general practitioners—it will be released hopefully by the end of next month—that will assist in that regard. But I do not accept her assertion that a long line of general practitioners are lining up to say that. The general practitioner featured in the  
Dominion Post  
is a locum who worked temporarily in the town of Levin in my constituency who claims that people were being shifted from the unemployment benefit to the sickness benefit. The National Party claimed that it was a case of deckchairs being moved around. The truth is that since Labour has been in Government 1109 fewer people in the town of Levin are on the unemployment benefit and only 39 more people are on the sickness benefit. So that claim is wrong by a factor of 30. I am proud of that record. 
Judith Collins 
: Does she agree with Work and Income’s principal health adviser that Work and Income needs more training in this area; and does that admission confirm that the concerns that I and others have raised over the years were actually well founded? 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: The answer is no to the second point because the member continues to say that unemployment has not fallen in New Zealand—that we have just moved people from the unemployment benefit to sickness benefits and invalids benefits. That is not true. There are more people in work today and fewer people on the dole. But there is always a need for more training. This area is increasingly an area of focus for the Government. Now that we have been able to reduce unemployment down to fewer than 19000 we are focused on how we can assist people on sickness benefits and invalids benefits to get back into work and how we can support them by providing the wrap-around services that they need. Of course there is a need for increased training to make sure we are doing the right thing by people in the community. I look forward to the member’s support for our new handbook. 
Judith Collins 
: I seek leave following the challenge from the Minister to table “Benefit scam—doctors accuse Winz” from the  
New Zealand Herald  
of 26 July 2004. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is. 
Judith Collins 
: I seek leave to table a letter from the Hon Steve Maharey dated 27 September 2007 which states that there is no correspondence. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is.