Hipkins Chris: State Sector Management Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Hipkins Chris: State Sector Management Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
[Sitting date: 09 December 2010. Volume:669;Page:16287. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 I am very concerned about the role of the Chief Archivist and what the changes in Part 3 will mean for that role. The Chief Archivist will face the same issues as the National Librarian and I will talk about those in just a moment. The advice that the Education and Science Committee received in the form of submissions from a variety of submitters expressed real concern about the role and independence of the National Librarian and the fact that that was going to be compromised by merging Archives New Zealand and the National Library into the Department of Internal Affairs. I think the critical issue here is whether the Minister of State Services could be seen to exert more influence on the National Librarian under this legislation now that it is part of the Department of Internal Affairs than he would had the National Library remained independent. I think it would be fair to conclude that to be correct. 
I have no faith whatsoever that under this Government the independence of the National Librarian will be preserved because this Government constantly claims that departments are acting independently with no influence from Ministers but the reality is that that is not the case. We had a very recent example where a Minister effectively told a Government agency not to publicise a transport designation right before a by-election campaign because he thought that would impact the outcome of the by-election campaign. That department did exactly what the Minister requested. The Minister stood up in this House and said that he did not do that but the reality is that in the “nudge nudge wink wink” way that these things work what happened was pretty clear. I do not think anybody in this House or any member of the public believed that Minister when he said he had no influence on that matter. With regard to the National Library the concern is that we will see the same type of thing taking place. 
I am concerned about the role of the Alexander Turnbull Library and its integration effectively with the Department of Internal Affairs. This department runs a huge range of functions that are totally incompatible let us be frank about that. It goes from censorship to the National Library to the Fire Service to civil defence to local government and to a whole range of other things. All of those things are within the Department of Internal Affairs. I do not believe that one of the rationales for this move is that it will be more efficient. I simply do not believe that this move will result in any greater efficiency. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Ministerial Services. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Ministerial Services fits within the Department of Internal Affairs. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Absolute conflict. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: There is an absolute conflict there. It does not get much more connected to ministerial operations on a day-to-day basis than the Department of Internal Affairs which runs individual Ministers’ offices. It will also now have responsibility for the National Library. It is pretty clear that there are some conflicts of interest there. 
I will talk particularly about the Alexander Turnbull Library because this bill changes the appointment provisions for the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library. That appointment will no longer be made by the National Librarian but by the Chief Executive of the Department of Internal Affairs. There is no guarantee that the person making the appointment of the Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library will have the relevant expertise. Under existing legislation the National Librarian who has specialist knowledge and expertise is guaranteed to make the choice of who will run the Alexander Turnbull Library. 
The custody of the collections of the Alexander Turnbull Library will now reside within the department instead of within the National Library as a separate department. 
There was a range of submissions on the issue of the Alexander Turnbull Library which I think are worth talking about in more detail. Several submitters expressed concern that downgrading the status and identity of the library would damage its national and international reputation. The Alexander Turnbull Library is very widely respected both nationally and internationally and its independence is very important. There was a concern that this bill will compromise the intention to maintain the identity and status of the collections of the Alexander Turnbull Library make it more difficult to obtain funding compromise the Chief Librarian’s independence risk a conflict situation if the National Librarian’s recommendation for the appointment of the Chief Librarian was not followed and so on. Among the submissions there were recommendations to amend the bill to provide for an annual report for the Alexander Turnbull Library and/or the National Library to be tabled in the House. 
Under the current legislation— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I will allow Chris Hipkins to continue as he is in full flight. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. It probably will not be another full 5-minute contribution because I am coming to the conclusion of what I was saying but one of the concerns— 
Sandra Goudie 
: Yay! 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: That was Sandra Goudie. I like to hear from Sandra Goudie. I would like to hear what she has to say. I am not sure whether she is capable of making a contribution; I am not even sure she knows what the Alexander Turnbull Library actually is. 
Grant Robertson 
: A library—a place with books. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: Well we definitely will not find Sandra Goudie in it. Under the current legislation the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library report independently to this House. There is a clear line of accountability and clear reporting directly to this House. That will not be the case under this bill because it will all be amalgamated within the Department of Internal Affairs’ reporting line to the House. One of the things we have seen in recent years is a drive by Government—and I think some of it is actually very justified—to dramatically reduce the volume of information that is reported to the House in terms of statements of intent annual reports and so on. What we will see is a much less comprehensive description of the activities of the department coming through particularly in an environment where the Department of Internal Affairs which has such a wide array of functions will be trying to compress those into a concise summary for the House. We will lose a lot of the very valuable detail in terms of the reporting function that the National Library currently undertakes when that change takes place. 
Other recommendations that have come forth through the submissions included a recommendation for the Chief Librarian to report directly to the Minister—to have in the legislation a clear direct accountability to the Minister—rather than report through the Chief Executive. In that regard the amendment put forward by my colleague Grant Robertson to clause 25 basically creates an ability for the National Librarian to advise the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian. It is important to note that this bill does not give the National Librarian by right that ability to directly advise the Minister. So one of the amendments put forward by Grant Robertson—and I think it is a very important one—gives the National Librarian the express power to provide advice directly to the Minister on any matter relating to the functions and powers of the National Librarian. That is very important because it removes that filtered level. 
The Chief Executive will have a range of pressures one of which will be a resourcing pressure. The National Librarian should be able to go directly to the Minister and say that the Department of Internal Affairs which the National Library is now part of is not providing the necessary resources or support to the library in order to carry out its functions. The National Librarian needs to be able to go directly to the Minister and say that but this legislation as put forward by the Government does not provide that opportunity. The amendment to clause 25 set out by Grant Robertson gives the National Librarian that power. 
The amendment would add a new clause 25(5). It states: “In exercising the functions of the National Librarian under this section the National Librarian shall not be responsible to the chief executive but shall act independently.” I think that is incredibly important. The independence of this role is the primary concern of the Labour Opposition in our contributions to this debate. This bill waters down the National Librarian’s independence and makes the National Librarian a third-tier manager subordinate to the chief executive. The National Librarian will be subordinate not just to the chief executive; there will be another person between the National Librarian and the chief executive and the Minister. The National Librarian is going from having a direct relationship with a Minister of the Crown to having further layers of bureaucracy ahead of him or her. That raises real concerns given the significance of the role of the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I don’t think Brendan Boyle wanted it. He put it up in a way which is really impossible. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: I am certainly not sure that Brendan Boyle wanted this responsibility. 
The second amendment put forward by Grant Robertson to insert new clause 29A relates to annual reports. It places an obligation on the National Librarian to “prepare publish and present an annual report to the Minister for tabling in Parliament …”. Again that function has been removed by this legislation. Basically it means that the reporting function for the National Library will be subsumed within the Department of Internal Affairs so this House will not have access to the volume of information about the activities of the National Library that it has been used to getting. This amendment put forward by Grant Robertson reinstates some of that reporting.