Motions — Hon Steven Joyce—Conferral of Degree 
Motions — Hon Steven Joyce—Conferral of Degree 
[Volume:661;Page:9682] 
Motions 
Hon Steven Joyce—Conferral of Degree 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I seek leave to move without notice a motion of congratulations for persistence to Steven Joyce for having his degree conferred 21 years after he started it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I move  
That the House congratulate Hon Steven Joyce for having his degree conferred 21 years after he started it 
. I think this is a very good example of the House taking the chance to debate something that is very very important Government policy. The fact that we will now have an open debate on this matter one that will go down to the closure in Government time is absolutely brilliant. I thank the Leader of the House for his acceptance of this invitation to have a debate on this matter. I am very serious; I think that people who have their degrees conferred 21 years after they start is a sign of persistence. 
Mr Joyce was slow about getting it conferred. I think he had hoped over a period of time to do a little bit better—[ 
Interruption 
] He completed it in 3 years. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect some of us are very interested in Mr Mallard’s comments and we are struggling to hear with the hubbub down the back. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think it is quite a robust debate and members can expect a degree of noise. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I worked in rural education and with adults and I know the importance of having an ability to have a long period during which people can complete their education. I think that Steven Joyce as the Minister for Tertiary Education is absolutely wonderful in welcoming a debate on this particular topic at this particular point in time. He is sitting in Anne Tolley’s seat already and he is showing that maybe there is a problem with the seat. [ 
Interruption 
] There is a certain sense of difficulty with the Minister of Education at the moment and I will not become involved in that one. Mr Joyce is sitting in her seat and I wonder whether there is some sort of infection in the seat that causes general incompetence. I wonder what that problem could be. 
We are seeing a Government in disarray with a very grumpy Leader of the House. He is drumming his fingers already. Government whips were caught totally—well shoddy I think is the word— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This has to be a very narrow debate. It is to congratulate Mr Joyce on his academic achievements. I would have thought that the person who is speaking to the motion is straying well off the motion’s topic. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the member makes a perfectly fair point of order. Certainly there are no grounds to comment on the Leader of the House in this debate. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Certainly not on academic achievement. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member should not be commenting on my ruling. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I was not commenting on Mr Brownlee’s academic achievements; I was saying to the Minister for Tertiary Education that I think it is good that he decided to have his degree conferred in the way that he did. Although he is considerably younger than I am he is part of the generation that did not think that having a degree conferred was quite as important at the time and did not bother doing it—and in some cases that was done quite deliberately rather than by accident. But later on he chose to have his degree conferred. 
I think he has highlighted that people learn in different ways. That is clear from his academic record. He seemed to learn fairly fast at the beginning of his tertiary education but he did not learn very much at the end. “Did Not Complete” or “DNC” is the expression that is used fairly frequently on his academic record. It means that a little bit as he is now he was focused on the front end—on the early optics—but in the end was not focused on the substance. 
All around the university system vice-chancellors are waiting for him to put back as far as policy is concerned some of the learning that he received when he was a student. There has been only one weak speech which was made at Te Papa and frankly when one listened to it one thing became very clear. It had a lot of his own work in it. [ 
Interruption 
] I am not sure where the delivery was. His one speech on tertiary education that I have read showed clearly that he had thought about the speech carefully. There were a lot of his own words in it. He may have learnt those words during his limited tertiary career or he may have learnt them afterwards. 
I thank him because I now have a copy of his academic transcript in front of me. A Bachelor of Science in zoology is a very good qualification for working in the National Cabinet—I think it is fair to say that there are a range of animals there—although clearly his experience was not as good as someone else who used to have responsibility in the tertiary education area and who had a good understanding of the way that cows’ guts worked. I am sure he applied his knowledge within the National Party. Well he would have if he was in that Cabinet; he would have been able to work it in there. 
But in this particular case when we look at the subject of labour economics we see that Mr Joyce could not even pass it. I want to know when he was ever Labour enough to study labour economics. On the subject of monetary economics we see that the pretender to the throne of the Minister of Finance could not complete the paper— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. As I said before this is a very very tight motion. It is to congratulate Mr Joyce on his academic career. It seems to me completely inappropriate that the speaker on his feet should dissect the academic record in such disparaging terms. This is a tight debate and speakers should be held to the tight bounds of the motion. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Speaking to the point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not think we need to hear any more on this. I think the member was certainly speaking to the academic record and I think he is entitled to do so. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: It is notable that Mr Joyce has tabled only two of the four pages. I am not sure whether that complies with the Speaker’s requirements as to full tabling. 
It is really interesting that the only A I can find on page 3 or 4 is for the subject of energy and environment. I want to know what Gerry Brownlee thinks about that; although I must say that having a course on energy and environment within a Diploma in Social Sciences is somewhat unusual. Oh I see that it is from Massey University. Now I am beginning to understand. This member could not even succeed in Massey University postgraduate work. I do not want to say anything about the biggest polytechnic in the country which I have visited. Do not tell me your PhD is from Massey University Mr Speaker. I am pleased to learn that it is not. I knew you had a quality PhD and I am sure that Steve Maharey to whom I was speaking yesterday—[ 
Interruption 
] Oh the phone is going already. Mr Maharey is tweeting me or trying to do something like that at the moment. 
Mr Joyce also has a B+ in the economics of trade legislation. The transcript states Trade Legis but I presume it means legislation. I think he should be doing Tim Groser’s job. As I was saying before one of the areas that was a “Did Not Complete” was in the area of monetary economics. I ask the member whether it is his intention to do something like what Dr Cullen did before he became Minister of Finance. 
Hon Member 
: What was that? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: He went to the United States and did a pretty intensive short economics course which brought him up to date with a modern understanding of economics. 
This transcript looks a bit like mine—pretty marginal. There are some reasonable grades mixed in with some shockers. Some things are complete and some are incomplete. If the member is the pretender to the role of Minister of Finance he will have to improve. He will have to do Economics 101 and he will have to get a level of understanding that is well beyond that indicated by this transcript. 
I do not know whether Geoffrey Palmer still lectures across the road whether his son does or whether someone else is taking the subject on the constitutional area of the way that Parliament runs. It is like it is in a lot of other places; when one is in Government one has to be very very careful about saying “Yes.” at the wrong time. That is what that member has done today. He said “Yes.” at the wrong time to the invitation to have this debate and it is something that he will regret going forward. 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour) 
: 
 Today the House joins in unity—in fact I think the country joins in unity—to honour Steven Leonard Joyce latterly of the North Shore with a student ID number of 0816886. The academic records from Massey University which were laid on the table by the Minister himself—this will be a good speech Gerry; it is worth staying for. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: I withdraw. That was outside the Standing Orders. I return to the motion moved by my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard to congratulate— 
David Garrett 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I believe that the speaker on his feet referred to the pending absence of the Minister which I understand is not in order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member apologised for having made that reference. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: One has to be quick around here. We will look for that on the transcript. The member of Parliament Steven Leonard Joyce began his study for the degree of Bachelor of Veterinary Science in 1981. That will mean by definition that he will not remember any other event in 1981 much like the Prime Minister of New Zealand John Key. He was busy studying for his Bachelor of Veterinary Science that year and everything else that was going on around him in the city of Palmerston North would have taken him by complete surprise. I will start in 1981 and then go right to the other end when the degree was finally conferred in 2002. The 20-year journey that the Minister for Tertiary Education took to get his degree conferred is a journey he ought to be proud of. I believe that the only way he was able to do it—and the reason we congratulate him today—is clearly that in that 20-year period he took adult and community education night courses in order to bridge the gap so he could get that 20-year degree. We congratulate him on the motion before the House today. 
There are many papers associated with that degree but only some of them make up the degree. 
Hon Steven Joyce 
: All in 3 years Darren. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Sorry? 
Hon Steven Joyce 
: 3 years; that’s all it took. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Well I am looking at the transcript the Minister has tabled. It says here he started the course in 1981 and in 2002 the degree was conferred. I am being kind to the member; I said it was 20 years but it turns out that it took 21 years to get the degree. We are making no judgment about that. Today is about congratulating and honouring the Minister in charge of tertiary education in our country; we do not want to do anything else other than that. 
My colleague Mr Mallard made reference to the Minister’s extraordinary political skills. They have been built on the basis of his degree. In joining in the congratulations today we pay tribute to him for the extraordinary way in which he has managed his political career since then. As I look through the papers I see many of the things that I think have helped him. The one that really stands out to me is the A- mark he got in animal behaviour. I would have thought that even though that was an academic course every Monday morning it must feel like an applied course when he is in the Cabinet room watching the machinations of the Government. 
As he has already moved into Anne Tolley’s seat in the House has taken away half of her portfolios and no doubt will send the  
Hansard 
 record of today to her I believe it is worth reflecting on what has made up his extraordinary academic career. As everyone knows there are times in our careers when we go forwards and times when we go backwards. I suspect that after the SuperGold card incident and today’s particular events the Minister may be feeling the pendulum slightly correcting itself after 15 months of being told how wonderful he is. As my colleague the Hon Maryan Street pointed out sometimes academic careers have high points and sometimes they have low points. Certainly there are a few low points in the transcript. None of that should take away from the success of the member over the 21-year programme he undertook to secure an undergraduate degree. There is an old saying that God loves a trier and I think the Minister for Tertiary Education has shown us that if one sticks with it and applies himself or herself it is possible to achieve an undergraduate degree in science and zoology in New Zealand. 
There were things that were not completed—items of work that the Minister throughout his studies was not able to get around to completing. In offering our congratulations I say that the Opposition has no objection if the Minister decides to take up some of those courses again so he may continue to see his career trajectory take off in the way it has. Papers in monetary economics advanced economic theory and economy of development were not completed by the Minister. As Mr Mallard has already stated the next natural career move for the Minister of Transport Mr Joyce would be to move into the finance portfolio. Already we can see that the degree papers he was successful in have assisted him but it has not yet been possible for him to make that final leap across—just one seat over in that particular respect—so he can take on issues related to economics. 
There were many things in his degree course that were not completed but there were other things where he made a fair go at it—for example trade legislation. It would be great if we had two Ministers of Trade in a row—Mr Groser and Mr Joyce—who knew absolutely everything. Most countries are lucky to get one Minister of Trade who knows absolutely everything and we have Tim Groser for that! I ask members to imagine the beauty of living in a country that is mined to hell on one hand but with a Minister of Trade who knows everything on the other hand which would happen if Mr Joyce followed Mr Groser in that respect. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Aaron Gilmore. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Mr Mallard says that Mr Gilmore could become the Minister of Trade after that. Can members imagine if Mr Gilmore tabled his academic transcript? He is so talented and distinguished; it would resemble the Auckland telephone book. 
Hon John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The motion is to congratulate the Minister on his academic achievement and the member who is speaking is straying outside of that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I hear the member. Could the Hon Darren Hughes come back to the motion. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Sure thing. I am sorry; I was responding to interjections. It is not fair for the Minister to have to share the limelight with anyone else today. This is Steven Leonard Joyce’s day. It is his day to be in the sun and it was wrong for me to mention any other member of Parliament. I apologise to him for that; it was uncharitable of me on such a special day for him. I know that as we are speaking down here and doing the serious work of congratulating him right now the Hon Gerry Brownlee is baking one of his big old cakes upstairs for him with a few candles on it to say congratulations and well done. 
When we look at how the Minister used that academic degree we have to look at some of the other academic publications that came after that degree and have helped him with his political career which we are congratulating him on today. The academic textbook most strongly associated with Steven Leonard Joyce student ID number 0816886 would be  
The Hollow Men: A study in the politics of deception 
. That would be the textbook I think that would have assisted him— 
Hon John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I say again that the debate is a very narrow debate. It is to congratulate the Minister. The book  
The Hollow Men: A study in the politics of deception 
 has nothing to do with academic achievement and the member should be brought back to the debate. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think it is a fair point of order. I invite the member to continue but be mindful that it is a narrow debate. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: It is a narrow debate. I was just going to say that I think it is very hard to argue that Steven Joyce has nothing to do with  
The Hollow Men: 
A study in the politics of deception 
; most of the book is about him. In politics some of those works can become academic textbooks even if at the time they are published that is not the intention. That is the only point I was making and I apologise to the acting Leader of the House Mr Carter for that transgression if that is what he believes it was. 
There is a lot in the academic transcript about theory and we know that the— 
Hon John Carter 
: I’m not the acting Leader of the House. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES 
: Mr Carter used to have a great sense of humour. It is a funny thing when people are auditioning for Cabinet. 
I want to go to the year 1983. The Minister undertook the course “Introduction to Computing” and in 1983 it would have been the hippest most modern available course at that time. The Apple IIe would have been the computer of choice used. Now that he is the Minister for Communications and Information Technology I think his most current piece of work in that regard would be the roll-out of broadband which he now has ministerial responsibility for. It is no surprise to me that in the 1983 academic course most closely aligned with his role as Minister for Communications and Information Technology and broadband he only got a C. That might be a similar pass mark to the one that is given to him now but at least he saw it through until the end when he got a C mark. 
As Mr Mallard has already stated in his generous and gracious motion of congratulations to Mr Joyce today his career has been built on his academic transcript. The House is very grateful that it has been made available to us today to review just some aspects of it. It is an occasion to be warm-hearted towards the Minister but of course we will want to check where pages 1 and 4 of the transcript are because it may be that the House wants to return to it to take up a few more points that might be in there. 
It is not fair to comment on courses that were not undertaken; we have mentioned those that were taken but not completed we have mentioned those where he scraped through and we have mentioned those such as animal behaviour where he did very very well indeed. We could explore some of the courses he did not bother to do. That would show some of the areas where his interests did not lie at that time. But today is not a day for politics; today is a day for our Parliament to come together to look at somebody who we believe is a future Prime Minister of New Zealand—Steven Joyce. He runs rings round most of the other Ministers because he does the work. When they are sleeping he is plotting. That is what he is doing to make sure that he can make the achievements he makes and can serve our country in the way he does. 
It only remains for me on behalf of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to congratulate the Hon Steven Leonard Joyce. That 21-year degree programme has paid rich dividends for him and we look forward to seeing what happens if he ever does a postgraduate diploma. 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Minister of Civil Defence) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
Motion to congratulate Steven Joyce agreed to.