Rich Katherine: Families Commission Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee Procedure 
Rich Katherine: Families Commission Bill — Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee Procedure 
[Volume:614;Page:10310] 
KATHERINE RICH (National) 
: 
 This part includes the schedules I think. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Yes it does. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I can see—[ 
Interruption 
] I did check this with the Clerk before. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member needs to check the bill but I have been advised that the debate is on clause 60 which relates to schedule 4. Clause 60 states: “The Acts listed in Schedule 4 are amended in the manner set out in that schedule.” 
John Carter 
: Yes that is correct which covers a number of schedules. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No just schedule 4 and then we take the schedules. 
John Carter 
:So are we having two separate debates? Are we having a debate now on just the amendments to schedule 4 and then there is a separate— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I will just clarify that. It is my understanding— 
John Carter 
:My understanding is that Part 2 covers all the schedules but if there are two debates that is fine. We are very happy with that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: We will just double-check the resolution from the— 
David Benson-Pope 
: On the agreement of the Committee and on the agreement of Mr Carter I would be pleased to ask for leave for there to be one debate on this part and the schedules. That would accommodate Ms Rich. 
John Carter 
:I do not know that the member will get leave. 
David Benson-Pope 
: One question rather than two would be sensible. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member has sought leave for that. Is there any objection? There is objection. We will just be very clear that we are now debating Part 2 which contains clause 60: “The Acts listed in Schedule 4 are amended in the manner set out in that schedule.” So members can speak to schedule 4 now then can speak to the rest of the schedules in the next question. 
John Carter 
: So there are two questions to be addressed? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Yes. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: It was very interesting to hear the contribution from Murray Smith on this bill and to see that although he sought leave to extend his time to speak about this bill that leave was denied by Labour. I had thought that the whole point of this Committee stage from the perspective of United Future was to sing the praises of this bill from the rooftops. So it is interesting that the Committee stage is being rushed through. I can understand why. I can see why the Minister would be embarrassed to have to sit in the chair while we discuss the various parts in the bill. He knows that this Families Commission will do nothing for the most disadvantaged families in New Zealand. I think if the Minister were able to make decisions about the $28 million he would prefer to put that sum into areas like the Department of Child Youth and Family Services or Work and Income or into a new project to get people back into work or into something that would actually make a difference at the front line for New Zealand families. I was surprised to hear Murray Smith say he thought this Families Commission would be a coach of New Zealand families. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the member but clause 60— 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I am getting there Madam Chair. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: There are two matters in clause 60—let me explain. It relates to the Public Finance Act and to provisions of the Ombudsmen Act. So the debate is very narrow. There will be a wider debate on the schedules. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I seek clarification. I do understand though that I am able when I take a call to refer in passing to comments that have been made by other members before I get on to other parts of the bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: No the member must be relevant to what is being spoken to. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: Clause 60 relates to schedule 4 which looks at amendments to other Acts and it is very important to see there reference to the Public Finance Act. I think that once again gives me an opportunity to talk about the expenditure that this Government will have to make to put in place the Families Commission. This bill was set out— 
Mark Peck 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. This is a very narrow clause and all that the amendment to schedule 4 does is insert in that Act the words “Families Commission”. It does not bring in any other matters that the member could possibly canvass in the way she is doing. The legislation has been to a select committee. My submission to you Madam Chair is that she is totally out of order in her comments. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: It is a narrow debate. It is about the Families Commission and the provisions within the Public Finance Act only. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. If you look at Part 2 “Amendments to other Acts” which includes clause 60 “Amendments set out in Schedule 4” you will see it is very difficult to debate this clause without making reference to schedule 4 which I was doing before I was rudely interrupted by that member. I was making reference to the Public Finance Act. 
Mark Peck 
: It is a very simple matter. Part 2 deals with amendments to other Acts of Parliament. The other Acts of Parliament are simply being amended by the insertion of two words “Families Commission”. There is no wide debate on that. All that the speaker can possibly do within the Standing Orders is to say whether “Families Commission” should be included in the two pieces of legislation being amended by clause 60 which is Part 2 of this bill—nothing more nothing less. The bill has been to a select committee. The member has been here for some time; she should know that. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member is correct. However the part is about the commission relating to the Public Finance Act and all the provisions within that Act. I think the member was trying to get to that. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I sat on the select committee that discussed this bill. I have read the bill unlike that member over there who took no part in evaluating the Families Commission Bill. As I said I was speaking to Part 2. Part 2 relates to amendments to other Acts. If members look at clause 60 they will see that it states: “Amendments set out in Schedule 4.” I challenge that member over there to tell me how one debates Part 2 without making reference to schedule 4. It states: “The Acts listed in Schedule 4 are amended in the manner set out in that schedule.” Although schedule 4 looks like a small amendment to that member in terms— 
Mark Peck 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I will not sit here and listen to the member’s reflections on me in that respect. I ask her to withdraw and apologise for her derogatory comments. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member was being interrupted by you Mr Peck. I think the member is entitled to a fair go in relation to what she was speaking about—that is the Public Finance Act. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: I would like to clarify one point. When I was speaking about a small amendment to the bill I was not referring to that member over there although he obviously took it as that. I was referring to very significant pieces of legislation—[ 
Interruption 
] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: The member is entitled to a fair speech. Would the member please desist now. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: It seems that there are a few sensitivities flying around today. 
Although the insertion of the words “Families Commission” into the Ombudsmen Act in schedule 4 looks like a small one it is actually quite a significant change in this case because it means that the Ombudsmen Act now oversees this particular bill. Likewise for the Public Finance Act in respect of which schedule 4 states: “Insert in the Fourth Fifth Sixth and Seventh Schedules in each case in its appropriate alphabetical order the following item: ‘Families Commission’.” We see two small words but it just goes to show that when one sets up a $28 million bureaucracy like this one has to rewrite lots of other pieces of legislation at great cost to the community.