Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Helensville): Thank you Mr Chair. I'll pick up really where Minister Andrew Little left off with a brief contribution on the subject of trustees' indemnities. I've picked out this particular provision within the part because it seems a good example of the legislation going to some effort to spell out with clarity exactly the extent of the trustee's powers in this case and the indemnities indeed that a trustee can enjoy. The starting point I suppose is to really consider that it is a significant power that a trustee has. Indeed it's a fiduciary duty. The relationship of the trustee is one where he or she owes to the beneficiaries of the trust a level of responsibility that's reflected in the fact that there's a special duty and a considerable power that a trustee has as one who of course by very definition owns property legally and can dispose of it and do certain things with it but it's for the benefit of others. It is held in trust in that ordinary natural sense of that word as well as in the technical legal sense as well. So the starting point under clause 77 then is appropriate that it be—and I quote—(1) A trustee is personally liable for an expense or a liability incurred by the trustee when acting as a trustee." The personal liability being appropriate specifically because it is in the person's name—the legal person or the natural person as the case may be—that the property is held for the benefit of the trust. The qualification comes in the next subclause—that is that the trustee when acting reasonably is entitled to certain protections or certain indemnities indeed. The Minister has alluded to that saying that a trustee acting in a way that's reasonable and in accordance with their powers—particularly as a professional be it a lawyer an accountant or another—is entitled to that protection and it's a matter of good policy that we do wish to encourage people to take on these responsibilities for the benefit of their clients and society in general without fear of a penalty that would be unreasonable provided as the Minister has said that such a person is not being dishonest is not acting in bad faith and so on. The standard as expressed is reasonability or in terms of needing to be reasonable because the situations might differ. So it's impossible or indeed certainly imprudent to try to be more prescriptive in that and the subjective standard is appropriate because as often is the case the law does wish to regard a situation as requiring some sort of ordinary standard that the reasonable person might expect to be applied. Finally I'll just note that in relation to that particular clause which I'm taking by way of example the section doesn't limit indemnity available at common law or in equity. So in other words the interaction of the statute is such that those protections that a trustee might already enjoy at the common law—that is the development of the jurisprudence the understanding and the rules so to speak over the years—will continue to be applied for the benefit of the trustee and also as I mentioned the equity. So the fairness essentially rules the doctrine that allows a person to appeal essentially to the notion of acting in good conscience and not being penalised for that. So with that I will leave my contribution on this particular part and I look forward to the continuation of the debate by the Minister and perhaps others. The question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 255 in the name of the Hon Andrew Little to Part 4 be agreed to.Amendments agreed to.Part 4 as amended agreed to."