Joyce StevenHon STEVEN JOYCE (National): Thank you Madam Chairperson Williams. I would like to thank my colleague Nick Smith for that contribution because it is a very very important contribution that he's just made. I actually think the good news is there may be a solution if the Government is prepared to entertain it. They haven't entertained much so far but perhaps they'll be up for this one given that it will make superannuitants not lose out through this package.So I'm proud to tell the committee that I've lodged an amendment to the bill which I think will be discussed in a later debate that will give us the opportunity to shift the start date this year to 1 May so that the superannuitants get exactly what was advertised before the election. I'm always here to help. That way we'd be able to ensure that those superannuitants get that.There is of course a simpler way. This whole charade actually needs to be simplified and in particular in relation to this so-called winter energy payment which isn't about winter and isn't about energy at this point. All it is in fact is a payment. So why doesn't the Government just make it a payment? After all all they're doing is compensating people for the loss of missing out on the previous Government's package. That's all they're doing. So why didn't they—rather than go to this elaborate charade why didn't they just say We'll legislate to give superannuitants a one-off increase over the next 12 months."? And then it could just flow on.The other thing that the superannuitants miss out on now is that the $680 that they were going to get goes up each year by the average wage. This winter energy payment doesn't go up each year by the average wage. So it diminishes over time. So a much simpler way would be not to do the winter energy payment at all; just to bow to inevitability and to actually pay the superannuitants the amount they were going to get under the Family Incomes Package of the previous Government—much much simpler. But once again we're seeing the Government wanting to take the long way round wanting to do more complicated things wanting to confuse New Zealanders.So we have the other part of the ludicrous charade. It's been declared to be a winter energy payment therefore we have to maintain that charade and start policing whether people are leaving the country at the wrong time to qualify for the winter energy payment which is only called a winter energy payment because you have to call it something.So now we're going to have—and I appreciate the Minister in the chair Stuart Nash saying that he's got an agreement between Inland Revenue Department officials and Customs Service officials so the beady eye of Government will be watching which superannuitants leave the country at the wrong time and more importantly which ones return at the wrong time. Mr McKelvie where are you? You're in trouble mate because they'll be watching you to make sure that Mr McKelvie doesn't actually miss out or more importantly doesn't take the winter energy payment that he's not allowed to take.So they'll have a list of superannuitants that leave the country in winter and they'll have another list of superannuitants coming back—I presume this is what's happening. I presume they'll have another list of superannuitants as they return to the country. Is that right Mr Nash? And then they'll be checking that the right period of time has elapsed between the departure and the arrival so that the winter energy payment is not lost. So as complicated as that is I think that's how it's going to work so far.But then the very interesting bit happens after that. What happens next? Does the IRD just simply whip it out of the superannuitant's account? I mean do they actually take it out of the superannuitant's account? That's a fair question. How does the money get recovered if for example the superannuitant is stuck overseas because the flight is delayed? What will be the appeal process by which they can go to IRD or perhaps it is to customs and say "Look I'm terribly sorry but Air New Zealand's plane got a flat tyre"—or whatever it was—"and I wasn't able to come back into the country."? What is the process of appeal that we're going to see through this?I think we do need to know this stuff. Actually this is going to affect 750000 superannuitants from next year and they need to know whether "Johnny Clipboard" is going to pop up at their place and interrogate them about how long they went overseas for—whether "Johnny Clipboard" is going to come around and sit them down and say "I need to see your tickets. Perhaps I should have a look at your suntan just to verify that you went and you came back."This is serious. It is a ridiculous idea and it's what happens when you start with a small problem and you try and change it and it becomes a bigger problem. So now we have a winter energy payment that's not a winter energy payment."