5. Question No. 5—FinanceNICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 5—Finance5. NICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement in June this year that the extent of the Government's work on tax was outlined after the 2020 election. That has been the work programme for tax" and is that consistent with the months spent working on proposals for new taxes including a minimum tax wealth tax and a capital gains tax intended to be part of Budget 2023?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I stand by my statement of 21 June 2023 in its full and proper context. This includes my answer to the member's primary question which was "…the Budget process for 2023 began around August of last year and as at all Budgets it considered whether specific tax changes were appropriate" and then the full statement in the supplementary question "…the extent of the Government's work on tax was outlined after the 2020 election. That has been the work programme for tax. In respect of the Budget we had the announcement on the trustee tax rate. In respect of this Government those are the actions on tax that we are taking." The Government's tax policy work programme was last published on 20 July 2021 and included decisions that the Government had taken at that time including for instance the removal of mortgage interest deductibility. As such the answer to the second part of the question is yes. As indicated above Ministers did receive advice on tax changes during the course of the Budget process including ones that Cabinet did not agree to proceed with.Nicola Willis: At what point after the 2020 election did he front up to New Zealanders that he had commissioned extensive work to design massive new taxes documented in these reports including proposals for a minimum tax wealth tax capital gains tax inheritance tax gift tax corrective taxes—all paid for by taxpayers?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As noted in my primary answer at this Budget as indeed at many Budgets in the past work was done on potential alternative tax policies. For example the Government's tax policy work programme 2009-2010 did not include the following measures that were included in Budget 2010: the increasing of the rate of GST from 12.5 percent to 15 percent a cut in the company tax rate ending landlords and businesses' ability to claim depreciation on buildings with an estimated useful life of 50 years or more a cut in the top tax rate for most portfolio investment entities from 30 percent to 28 percent and changes to the thin capitalisation tax rules. The Budget process is the process in which ideas are tested and explored.Nicola Willis: On what date did the Prime Minister inform him that he would rule out the introduction of a wealth tax?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In the lead-up to the final Budget paper going to Cabinet which I believe was on 11 April.Nicola Willis: Is he aware of a statement by Labour Party finance spokesperson on 9 September 2020 that Labour will not implement any new taxes next term and if so does the Minister think the finance Minister has acted consistent with that in commissioning extensive work for months designing new taxes?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In answer to the first part of the question yes. In answer to the second part of the question the member may or may not be aware that has she not worked her way through those documents the proposals being made would not have come into force in terms of new taxes until after the election. In the event as we all now know it didn't happen.Nicola Willis: Why on 16 February did he direct his officials to focus on proposals for a wealth tax rather than the minimum tax he had previously prioritised and was it because he felt newly enabled by the election of Prime Minister Hipkins?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That was part of the evolving work programme. In answer to the second part of the question the arrival of Prime Minister Hipkins gave me and others in this caucus pause to reflect on a number of different issues. The member is aware of the reprioritisation programme that has taken place.Hon Damien O'Connor: Can the Minister give an assurance that Government's policy on GST before the election will be the same as the Government's policy on GST after the election?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Absolutely and as I indicated in 2009-10 that was not something that was on the work programme of the Government but magically GST did increase from 12.5 percent to 15 percent. I'll also be interested to see the consistency of tax policy for instance on the top tax rate—whether that's going to be reduced—and a number of other measures that we will see whether they're consistent.Nicola Willis: When the Minister says the Prime Minister informed him a wealth tax wasn't a goer anymore can he clarify the statement in the official advice he received which states "The decision has been taken that now is not the right time for these changes." and can he confirm that there may indeed be a future time where he will consider it the right time to impose hefty new wealth taxes on New Zealanders?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In the words of that member's leader "we've got years of this".Nicola Willis: Is that a bid for the Labour Party leadership?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No but it is for you!Nicola Willis: Is the Minister concerned that the Prime Minister keeps killing his pet projects—first the jobs tax then his wealth tax fantasy—and if the Prime Minister doesn't trust this finance Minister then why should New Zealanders?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No I am not concerned about that. What I am concerned about is the prospect of a Government coming in and deciding that now is the time to cut taxes when we need to invest more in health when we need to invest more in education when we need to invest more in housing. I'm worried about a Government that thinks there should be a top tax rate of 28c which will mean billions of dollars of cuts right across public services. That's what really concerns me.Chlöe Swarbrick: Why is the Government saying that they don't have a mandate to implement taxes on wealth or capital gains when polling shows that 53 percent of New Zealanders—a higher proportion than voted for Labour in the 2020 election—support a wealth tax?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Unfortunately mandates are not delivered by polls.Chlöe Swarbrick: Was the decision not to proceed with a capital gains tax or a wealth tax informed by the IRD high-wealth individuals research and if not does he think that that decision should be revisited in light of research that shows that the wealthiest people in this country pay on average a lower effective tax rate than the average New Zealander?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Cabinet has made the decision not to advance that work.Chlöe Swarbrick: Does he believe then that the revenue generated from a wealth tax or a capital gains tax would enable greater investment in public services and help lift thousands of children out of poverty and if so why has the Government ruled it out?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: There are many different ways to achieve the goals that the member suggests in her question."