Norman Russel William: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Norman Russel William: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:673;Page:19228] 
2. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: Does he stand by his statement on TVNZ’s  
Close Up 
 on 3 May 2010 regarding KiwiRail workers that “There will be lots of work for these guys there’s no doubt about that because they do a lot of things well and there’s a big rolling stock replenishment and replacement exercise that’s coming down the pipeline”; if not why not? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yes I do; and I also stand by the rest of that quote which states “you can’t make these things conditional to the deal. The point I was making about KiwiRail a few weeks ago is that the reality is this rail company has been treated like a Cinderella in this country for a long long time with all sorts of political things about what it should do and what it shouldn’t do which don’t necessarily”— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The question was a fairly simple question. It just asked whether the Minister stood by his statement. He went on to say he stood by the rest of it but I sense then he started to get into some political comment that was not actually required by the question. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will hear the Minister. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: No I was not Mr Speaker. That was the actual total quote. I was just reading back elements of the rest of the quote. The quote in the question was taken out of context and I thought I would read the rest of the quote. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise to the Minister if I stopped him but I think he had read a fair part of the— 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: There is a very important part of the quote that I was not able to get to that is pretty relevant to the member’s question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The question asked whether the Minister stood by this statement and if he did not stand by it he was asked why not. The question could be answered yes. Of course Ministers are allowed to indicate where a quote is taken out of context but they should not go on reading forever. But on this occasion I will let the Minister finish the quote. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: Thank you Mr Speaker. The remainder was: “And I believe strongly that if we’re going to turn KiwiRail around—and it’s a big turnaround project—then we actually have to let them make the commercial decisions that they need to make.” 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does the Minister regret the fact that as a Minister of the Crown he effectively gave these workers a guarantee that they would have a job—and they may have made certain commitments to mortgages and so forth—and today 70 workers have lost their jobs in spite of the assurance from the Minister that their jobs were secure? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: No and I do not think the member’s characterisation is at all fair as I indicated by reading the rest of that quote. I certainly acknowledge the uncertainty and concern that the affected workers will have which occurs whenever these sorts of changes take place in any organisation. However it is important that we let KiwiRail make its own commercial decisions if it has the chance to turn round and become successful. We cannot place requirements on KiwiRail that we do not place on any other New Zealand company. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: If the Minister believes that it is important to give KiwiRail the freedom to make its own commercial decisions can he confirm whether he or any other Ministers discussed with the chair of KiwiRail the implications for any of our free-trade agreements were the contracts to end up with an overseas company versus a New Zealand company? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I can confirm that I did not. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question asked whether he or any other Ministers had discussed it. He answered the question in regard to himself. Is he aware of any other Ministers discussing it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister is entitled to answer it for himself. I do not think he can answer for other Ministers. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: In the light of his comments that KiwiRail does do a lot of things well and that there is a big rolling stock replenishment why then is KiwiRail losing 70 jobs today from its Hillside workshop in Dunedin? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: KiwiRail has a massive number of investments scheduled over the next 10 years as we seek to turn that organisation round as part of the $4.6 billion turn-round plan. So there is a huge amount of work across that organisation which I note has 4200 staff or thereabouts. Again it is very important that we allow KiwiRail to make its commercial decisions about individual elements of its organisation. We do not place the sort of requirement that the member seems to be suggesting on any other New Zealand company. If we want to make KiwiRail successful—and I suspect that the Greens do because they are big fans of rail—then we have to allow it to get on and make its appropriate decisions. 
Hon David Parker 
: Can the Minister not see the inconsistency between his Government’s refusal to allow KiwiRail even to tender to build rolling stock and the Government’s $35 million subsidy in this year’s Budget for farm irrigation and was he involved in any cost-benefit analysis to show whether investing that money in the Hillside workshop would have been better than a further subsidy to the farming sector? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I reject the member’s suggestion. We did not say to KiwiRail that it could not bid for the work. It has bid for some work and in relation to the work that it did not bid for it made its own decision. The reality is that the Greens and Labour are playing politics with this issue. They had one big train contract when they were in Government and they gave it to Korea to build the Matangi trains. Now they are in Opposition it is suddenly all different and I think we can call that petty politics and crocodile tears. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: It certainly was not us. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Dr Russel Norman 
: With regard to the Minister’s approach that it is a singular commercial decision for KiwiRail has the Government considered the whole-of-economy approach in this issue and has he looked at the Business and Economic Research Ltd report which looked at whole-of-economy benefits? Were these contracts to be let in New Zealand the benefits would be not just to KiwiRail but to all of New Zealand. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The Business and Economic Research Ltd report as I think we discussed in this House at the time had a number of large issues with it in terms of the assumptions it was able to draw. The member seems to be suggesting rejecting the whole principle of trade and specialisation to allow countries to get ahead. The reality is that every country specialises in certain areas and trades with other countries. He seems to be suggesting a return to Fortress New Zealand which is fine for him but I suspect it would not be good for any other New Zealander. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: If the Government really believes that it should be left to the market and to trade and specialisation why does the Government have such an inconsistent approach? On the one hand KiwiRail tenders the contract to whomever; on the other hand when it comes to intensive agriculture and irrigation the Government has very very large subsidies to that industry. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I do not see the connection. Obviously Mr Parker and Dr Norman got together at lunchtime and cooked that one up. I do not see the connection at all. What I can tell members once again is that it is very important that politicians stop making political demands on what is a struggling organisation so that we can turn it round and make it a success in New Zealand.