3. Question No. 3—Social Development and EmploymentDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader—Te Paati Māori) (remote) to the Minister for Social Development and EmploymentQuestion No. 3—Social Development and Employment3. DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader—Te Paati Māori) (remote) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she agree with the widespread concerns about the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People's Commission Bill including from Hāpai Te Hauora who said that it will not only stagnate any attempts to pursue better outcomes for tamariki and whānau engaged with Oranga Tamariki but may even perpetuate the harms and dysfunction of the current Oranga Tamariki system at disproportionate and irreparable rates"?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment): I do not believe it will perpetuate the harms and dysfunctions of the current system; I think in fact this bill reflects important steps to doing the complete opposite. I believe that we all have the same goal of improving outcomes for our tamariki and rangatahi. This bill alone will not address every challenge pertaining to Oranga Tamariki; my colleague Minister Davis has considerable work under way to reform Oranga Tamariki. What this bill will do is ensure we have independent monitoring strong advocacy and an accessible complaints system in order to ensure Government is held accountable so we start to actually see real change for our children and young people who are in the system now.Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Why is Government determined on changing the monitor of Oranga Tamariki from an independent Crown entity to a departmental agency when this inevitably reduces the independence of the oversight?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I think it's very important that we are clear on what system we currently have in place. The Children's Commissioner between 2015 and 2019 had 78 complaints that were put through them that they then put on to the Ombudsman because the Ombudsman has had the lead role with regards to addressing complaints. The Children's Commissioner last undertook an investigation back in 2010. In 2019 we set up the Independent Children's Monitor. We set it up within the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) so it had the support to be initiated and to start up but with the intention of always removing it out of the Ministry of Social Development. The Kāhui Group that were established to advise the Government on this by and large have their recommendations reflected in this bill. The one point of difference is they did think that we should establish a Crown entity for the Independent Children's Monitor. Where we have landed is a departmental agency that will still have sufficient independence that will be hosted by Education Review Office that can't be told what not to do by the Government and that will sit alongside the advocate that continues to exist in the Office of the Children's Commissioner as well as a strengthened complaints avenue process through the investment that we have put into and will continue to put into the Ombudsman.Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Can she identify how the bill provides from Te Tiriti o Waitangi guarantee of the tino rangatiratanga of whānau hapū and iwi over the care and protection of tamariki Māori?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: There's been much discussion about whether or not we have consulted broadly enough with regards to this bill. I want to remind the House that there was the Kāhui Group that were put in place to advise the Government and to support the Government's consultation with Māori. Twenty-two hui were held across the country with respect to this particular issue—this very important issue. The bill reflects the conversations of those 22 hui that we engaged with. Working with Māori to develop the Treaty components of the bill have been critical to us as a Government. The bill's Treaty provisions were carefully crafted with Te Kāhui Kāhu who supported MSD's consultation with Māori across the country. From the hui we also heard that people wanted to ensure advocacy wouldn't be diluted by the monitoring function and were concerned about a conflict between advocacy and monitoring. The changes that we have made keep those two functions clearly separate. From the hui we heard that there was limited information currently about complaints. The bill places a duty on the Ombudsman to ensure that complaints processes are visible and accessible for children and young people and their family whānau hapū and iwi. The rights of Māori and Māori children in the system have been front of mind during this whole process of development. We as a Government are comfortable with where we have landed.Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Point of order e te Pīka. The question wasn't to ask how consultation happened; it was very specific. Can she please address it.SPEAKER: The Minister did address the question. It was a very long answer and had some extra material but the question was addressed.Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: What is her response to the Hon Dame Tariana Turia Dame Areta Koopu Dame Iritana Tāwhiwhirangi Merepeka Raukawa-Tait and Lady Tureiti Moxon who pointed out in their submission that the bill relegates Māori to the provider level and effectively maintains a system that is disruptive?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I disagree with those assertions. The bill creates obligations on the oversight bodies to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The specific clause in the bill directly emerged from key Māori stakeholders who called for specific obligations to be placed on the oversight bodies rather than a broad Treaty of Waitangi clause. A broad clause can be open to interpretation and run the risk of diluting the obligations on agencies. We have consulted broadly. This is a huge departure from the system that has been in place. We need to act with urgency to ensure that we do have a very clear and accountable monitoring system in place as well as support the advocacy that the Children's Commissioner does and bolster the complaints process so it is accessible and visible for our children. That is exactly what we are doing through this bill.Debbie Ngarewa-Packer: Will the Minister strengthen oversight by listening to calls from Māori to have independent tangata whenua monitoring of Oranga Tamariki that truly reflects Te Tiriti partnership not just a Māori advisory board under a Crown agency within the Education Review Office (ERO); and if not why not?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: The Independent Children's Monitor will be hosted by ERO; it has not been subsumed by ERO. They will share backroom functions. We are bolstering the role for Māori at the table particularly when we look at the Children's Commissioner. We heard from the submitters. There will still be a chief Children's Commissioner who will chair the board but sitting at that table alongside the Children's Commissioner will be Māori. There has been an absence of Māori at that table in the past. With all due respect to the nine Children's Commissioners that we have had over the years—all of whom have done a very good job—seven of them have not been Māori; only two of them have been Māori women. We are bolstering the role with regards to Māori and being able to oversee this system and that can only help our Māori children and rangatahi.Harete Hipango: Does the Minister agree with the comments of Minister for Children Kelvin Davis who has publicly stated in relation to the submitters on the bill "To be honest I don't know what the concerns are—I think it's just something to grizzle about"; and why is she not listening to the children and the people with lived experience of the Oranga Tamariki system who all oppose the bill?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I absolutely support my colleague in his support for the system in trying to make Oranga Tamariki work better for children. He has been very up front himself about the fact that the system has failed children for far too long and I'm absolutely with Minister Davis on that. I did receive that member's minority view on the bill. She was somewhat confused thinking that Minister Davis was in charge of this bill and actually stated in her minority view that she didn't support independent—SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think we're now getting into areas for which the Minister does not have responsibility."