Collins Judith: Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Collins Judith: Corrections (Contract Management of Prisons) Amendment Bill — In Committee Speaker Recalled In Committee Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 24 November 2009. Volume:659;Page:8081. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 It is a pleasure to follow that member Rick Barker. It was particularly good to hear him talk about the wonderful work of the Department of Corrections. I am sorry to say that in the Law and Order Committee today during the review of the Department of Corrections Rick Barker did not show any confidence in the department at all. In fact he quoted extensively some terrible recidivism rates and he talked about how the department should be ashamed of itself. Then the member realised as one of our members pointed out that he had in fact been referring to the 2007-08 annual report all of which was under the previous Labour Government. So when that member now wants to praise the Department of Corrections I say good on him for doing so because there has been a massive turn-round this year under this Government and it is good to hear that we finally have a good Government helping and working with the department and great performance. 
That member also raised issues about cost. I did not realise that the Labour Party was such a low-cost option but obviously that is what it wants. Prisons are not just about incarcerating prisoners; they are actually about keeping the public and our staff safe and they are also about rehabilitation and that is why this Government is committed to the rehabilitation of prisoners. We know that when we have a prison being run efficiently along the lines so that we get the best value for money we have more money to spend on rehabilitation. We know from the Auckland Central Remand Prison experience that the member talked about that the prison was the only remand-only prison in New Zealand at the time it was running. Therefore comparisons with others are somewhat wonky. Frankly the Auckland Central Remand Prison contracted for 70000 hours of rehabilitation a year for prisoners and the last year the prison was in operation it actually produced about 120000 hours of rehabilitation—well above its contracted level. Yet at the same time remand wings in our prisons were not doing that. When we are looking at numbers it is important to be realistic about what we are talking about. 
The people who privately ran the Auckland Central Remand Prison brought iwi into prison management. They did a fantastic job. I went to see that prison when it was running—and as a lawyer I had been into other prisons before—and I knew that that prison was the best prison I had ever visited. The reason is that the whole attitude was about respect. When I went to the prison the staff said that they ran a culture of respect. Earlier this year I went to see four prisons in Australia. The member who has just resumed his seat Rick Barker says that this is all ideologically driven. Well the prisons I went to see in Australia were all in Labour-run states in Australia so I am not sure about the ideology there. In fact they have been Labour-run states pretty much since Adam was a cowboy. We went to see two in Victoria and two in Queensland. What I saw there were maximum security prisons where I could walk around with other visitors in amongst the prisoners in a situation where I actually felt safe. That is not something we could say about all of our maximum security prisons in New Zealand. I also saw rehabilitation and I saw rehabilitation working. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: You’re talking about a remand prison. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: They were not remand prisons. These were actually maximum security prisons. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: A remand prison is slightly different. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No they were not actually. There was one that was; all the others were maximum security prisons. 
Grant Robertson 
: Oh one was—so all the others weren’t? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Three were not of the ones I went to. I saw some rehabilitation and I saw some efforts being made towards securing the best outcomes for prisoners. We already do what we can in the corrections area. The Department of Corrections has really improved in its performance this year and it is great to be able to say that. But we can do better. One of the ways of doing better is to be able to benchmark ourselves against international standards and look at what we can do. 
The member who has just resumed his seat talked about cost cost and cost again. But private prisons in New South Wales cost 32 percent less per prisoner than public prisons. The member did not want to talk about that. In Victoria they cost 11 percent less than public prisons. So when we are talking about cost we should look across the ditch and see what has been happening in states where there have been privately run prisons for years. The member also talked about the State needing to take over this role because of a constitutional issue. Well actually we also have privately run and contracted transporting of prisoners. In fact that happened under the previous Labour Government. I did not hear Labour members talking then about it being ideologically impure and I did not hear them talking then about the need to have the State doing every single thing because otherwise it would not be right. 
One of the great things about having privately run prisons apart from benchmarking is the fact that we can actually have fines and incentives for programmes and for performance. That is not something we can really have in the State-run system. What we would like to be able to do is look at how we can make rehabilitation and a lessening in the rate of recidivism part of our contract management. Members also talked about the need to have the Auditor-General roaming through our prisons. I do not think that is necessary when we have it quite clearly stated in the legislation that there will be prison monitors appointed by the Department of Corrections who will be responsible to the chief executive. One of the other good things about that clause if the member wants to look at it is that it means those monitors have to be changed on a routine basis so that we do not get people who get captured by the environment in which they are working. I think that is incredibly important. 
Over the past few months people have said that we have been talking to people who have been running privately run prisons. Yes we have. A lot of people who have come to see us have talked about privately run prisons and we have been to look at them in Australia. I can say that every single one of the people who have talked to me has made it very clear that we want strong iwi involvement in prisons in this country. Fifty-one percent of our prison population is Maori. That is a shocking statistic and it is certainly not getting any better. I expect that we will have a great input of iwi in particular into rehabilitation. We think that is absolutely crucially important and that is why I would love to be able to see the Labour Opposition come out and support the work of my Associate Minister of Corrections Dr Pita Sharples—in particular in relation to the rehabilitation unit that he is putting together. Yet all we heard from the Labour Opposition—actually from Mr Cosgrove to be fair to the rest of its members—was about a race-based justice system. Actually that is the sort of nonsense we have heard from that party in Opposition over prisons. What we should be doing is looking at what works. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Do you want me to go and get the  
Hansard  
of every time you said that? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No—well I tell the member to find one. In fact I think it is extremely important that people look at what works. That is why we are putting through this bill with the support of the ACT Party United Future and the Maori Party and I would like to thank those parties for their support. That is what we are doing. It is about good outcomes for people and good outcomes for all New Zealanders. 
Chris Hipkins 
: Tell us the evidence; there is no evidence. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I know that Mr Hipkins does not think there is any evidence at all in relation to the Maori units that Dr Sharples is looking at but I say to Mr Hipkins that I think it is really important to give things a go and go for the best outcomes. We have 20-odd prisons in this country. We will have at least two that will be privately run. That is what we are looking at—not wholesale privatisation but a reasonable benchmarking against which we can benchmark ourselves.