Henare PeeniHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Civil Defence): Tēnā koe Mr Chair and thank you for this opportunity.First can I acknowledge the Minister's response in taking the first call this evening because I recall when putting the question forward some confusion about where I was reading from but certainly her answers dispelled any confusion that I have on the matter and provided significant clarity. She does make a very valid point around testing this as we move into the future. I look forward to allowing breathing space for that to be tested. There will be some significant challenges as we consider the role of local government and council-controlled organisations moving into the future when we consider the obligations that are met that have been made under Treaty settlements. I look forward to seeing how that space evolves.I want to pick up just on a couple of things that my colleague Willow-Jean Prime mentioned in her contribution. I think she raised some good points and I want to drill down on a couple. This is certainly one of those questions that I ask of every bill where we look to consider tikanga Māori in a bill because of just the variations of tikanga Māori the sort of threshold one might put in place to acknowledge whether or not somebody can be considered to have a strong knowledge of tikanga Māori. For example I consider myself somewhat of an amateur in tikanga Māori but I according to this bill—and also a humble one too might I add. But in this bill could I be considered in roles outside of my rohe or my region simply because I have a strong knowledge of tikanga Māori?I want to always challenge and question those aspects in all bills because I've always been an advocate for not putting in—the word in Māori is whakakōhatungia"; in English that is "cementing"—aspects of tikanga Māori in legislation because there is a significant difference as has been debated in this House on many occasions between lo-r-e and l-a-w. I just wanted to just offer my thoughts on that and if the Minister has any contributions that she might want to make on that I think that that would be something worth debating.The other part that my colleague the former councillor from the Far North Willow-Jean Prime talked about was the statement of expectations. It says in there 64B(1) the organisation may prepare one—"may". I know Hon Stuart Nash is one who's always said "Well there is a significant difference between 'may' and 'must'." When I think about placing an expectation on a council giving an opt-out of a "may" sometimes erodes the confidence of iwi hapū and Māori when they have expectations of a local council in working with them in dealing with them and considering sites of significance. I wonder if the Minister is of a mind to perhaps strengthen that a little bit more or at least explain why it's in here.Simeon Brown: Put down an SOP.Hon PEENI HENARE: If that member wants to make a contribution he can take the time to read this Supplementary Order Paper 323 because I'm sure he hasn't. But back to the bill.It is important because I talk about eroding that confidence. I know it has more specific aspects as you read further down; it talks about iwi hapū and Māori organisations. All this does too—as somebody from Tāmaki-makau-rau I think about an urban Māori organisation. I know there is a strong representation through the bill for iwi and hapū and that's important but what then might the role be of say the Manukau Urban Māori Authority in this case? Or what might the role be of the Waipareira Trust or any other organisation that represents Māori interests in the city? Does that override local hapū? I'm not too sure. But I'm sure that the Minister in her consideration for this bill with the team of officials—some of those questions will no doubt have cropped up. I want to make sure that we as a committee can flesh those out to make sure that there is absolutely no ambiguity on the matter. I'm reminded of the words of Sir Geoffrey Palmer where he talks about discretion being the mother of all injustice. Where you find those rooms of flexibility in that space sometimes that's a good thing but often we find in particular in respect to Māori rights and Māori aspirations moving forward that we actually fail to meet them.That's just one of those questions I want to leave on the floor for everyone to consider. Hopefully the Minister and officials can consider that as we move forward on the bill."