Ngaro Alfred: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — Second ReadingText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeNgaro Alfred: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — Second Reading[Sitting date: 18 March 2014. Volume:697;Page:16782. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]ALFRED NGARO (National):I want to take up the comments that were made by the honourable Jan Logie when she talked about our children deserving better. Absolutely our children do deserve better. Unfortunately it is not the children who are at fault. Sometimes—not all the time—adults through their behaviour cause the incidences where our children do suffer. The target of the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill as Dr Rajen Prasad said is fraud. Absolutely unashamedly this particular bill is about fraud but the overall vision of the welfare reforms is a welfare system that supports our people in our community who are in need. That is the intent of the vision. So although the bill is focused on fraud there is a broader vision that this Government has of ensuring we have a system of welfare that does support our people who are in need.The comment by Dr Prasad was about the target being fraud. I want to read from the Labour Party minority report: “While Labour supports the intent of this bill to hold those responsible for committing fraud within our benefit system to account and stopping them from undermining the entire system for those who need it the most”—and I will finish off the sentence—“we do so with grave reservations.” But the part I want to highlight is about ensuring that we have the resources for those who need it most. I have had constituents who have come to my office in Māngere and who have talked to me about how they are in a situation involving this exact issue around benefit fraud. Again it was an oversight that they had made. In that sort of situation absolutely I supported them in the process of ensuring that they would get help and that there was discretion in the way that Work and Income dealt with them.It is not true to say that this Government is a Government that does not care. In fact it does care. We care every day. We want to make sure as the minority report from the Labour Party clearly said that we hold those people to account. Well it could be the Labour department. It probably feels like that some days I am not sure. Anyway the intent of the bill is to ensure that those resources will go to those people who need them most. We do not disagree with that. Absolutely that is the intent of what this bill does.I also want to pick up on the points that were made by Jan Logie around discretion because I think they are really important. I think it is important that when we deal with this issue it can be sensitive. For those who have unfortunately made some decisions and made an oversight we want to make sure that we do care for them and do help them through this process. Therefore to ensure effective debt recovery and to address the effect of those court decisions this bill will amend the Act as follows. Firstly it imposes a duty on the Ministry of Social Development to take all reasonable practical steps to recover the debt. Secondly the Ministry of Social Development has discretion—and I will repeat that: discretion—to determine case by case the method and rate of recovery. Thirdly in exceptional circumstances the Ministry of Social Development may defer temporarily the recovery of debt. Fourthly the Minister responsible for the Act is required to issue directions identifying the exceptional circumstances in which recovery may be deferred temporarily and identifying the considerations to which the Ministry of Social Development must have regard in setting the rate and methods of recovery of the debt.I just want to highlight the point that it is important that we are showing discretion and that we do care. This is not about turning round and heavy-handedly going out there and taking from those who unfortunately through their oversight have made a mistake. But those who are committing fraud behaviour—and we all agree in this House because the bill has come back with the majority agreeing—should be held to account. They should be held to account and that is the intent of this.I have one last comment before I finish and that is that Ms Ardern actually talked about the issue of finance and ensuring that we are balancing our view as a Government. Well we do know that South Canterbury Finance is currently in the dock before the court being held to account. This is a Government that is fair. It wants to ensure that those who most need the resources that are needed do receive them but those who have committed fraudulent behaviour will be held to account. I commend this bill to the House.