7. Question No. 7—Social Development and EmploymentHon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for Social Development and EmploymentQuestion No. 7—Social Development and Employment7. Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Why when comparing the December 2022 quarter to the September 2017 quarter were 49377 more people receiving the jobseeker benefit but 37551 fewer people receiving case management?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment) on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: The reason there are fewer people captured under the case management category is due to a change in the way the category is defined. Previously if someone had been to a group seminar they were counted as being in case management whereas now the numbers reflect someone getting ongoing active support. I am advised that people with complex needs and specific employment support get case management support. Also it is important to note that there are a range of supports available to those on jobseeker benefits; case management is just one type. To ensure that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) had a more focused approach to employment this Government invested $76.3 million specifically for work-focused case management and MSD has since ringfenced a number of case managers to focus just solely on employment. We're seeing record numbers of people go into work and off benefits: in the year to March 2023 we saw 90693 people moving off benefit and into work. This was 15.8 percent higher than the 78321 people who moved off benefit and into employment in the year to March 2017.Hon Louise Upston: How many more case managers has the Ministry of Social Development hired since September 2017?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: It's both an investment in specifically employment-focused case managers as I mentioned but it's also actually better and more targeted support that this Government has been investing in. I mentioned the figures previously in my answer to the primary question which was $76.3 million specifically on work-focused case management and a ring-fenced number of case managers on employment alone. The other point that I'd just like to make to the member concerned is the fact that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group found in 2014 that employment-focused case managers engaged proactively with 50 percent of their clients every month to support them into employment at the time. That continued to fall to an all-time low of 19 percent until we started investing in employment-focused case management. Now we have about 55000 people receiving ongoing employment case management. So it's not just about the numbers; it's about more targeted support.Hon Louise Upston: Point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you. I think my point of order is going to be quite obvious. I simply asked how many more case managers have been employed.Hon Grant Robertson: Speaking to the point of order the member's primary question was a fairly general question about the number of people on jobseeker benefit and the number of people receiving case management. To ask for a very specific number off the back of that question the member can't expect that to be specifically answered. I believe that the Minister addressed the question in her comments.Hon Michael Woodhouse: Speaking to that point the primary question was very specific about people receiving case management and fewer people receiving case management. The question was How many more". It would be perfectly in order for the Minister to say—if she doesn't—"I don't know". We got a very very long dissertation that didn't go anywhere near addressing the question.SPEAKER: To be honest I'm uncertain so I'm going to give the member an extra question so that she can further ask.Hon Louise Upston: Thank you. If the number of increased case managers is approximately 1500 that have been hired since September 2017 why are 37551 fewer people on welfare receiving case management?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: I will note that that is a figure that the member has suggested; that is not one that we're able to or that the ministry is able to support at this point. But what I will say is that under this Government as I have said previously we have changed the way and what it means to get case management is something that is much better and much more tailored to the needs of the people who need it. It is also one amongst a range of supports that people on jobseeker benefit get. As I mentioned previously under the previous Government's definition if you attended a group seminar with a whole bunch of other people you were apparently getting case management but it wasn't actually targeted to the needs of those people. On top of that we're also seeing engagement with case managers increase as well.Hon Louise Upston: Does she accept that if more people had had case management we would see more people move off welfare into work instead of 50000 more on the jobseeker benefit?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: What I will say is that 55000 people are receiving the tailored employment case management that they need based on their needs. What I will also accept is that in the year to March 2023 we saw 90693 people moving off benefit and into work. This is 15.8 percent higher than in the year to March 2017 and it shows our approach is working.Hon Louise Upston: If the case management approach is working why is it that there are now more people returning to welfare after 13 weeks and instead she's claiming a great success of exits into work? They're back on benefit in 13 weeks. Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: I will say that employment is at an all-time low. I have already outlined the figures of people getting into work. I can also say that there are a range of other supports like Flexi-wage scheme expansions where 25581 placements have been seen through that; Mana in Mahi—since 2018 over 5800 placements; over 10000 rangatahi have engaged over the lifetime of He Poutama Rangatahi; and 27168 apprentices have been supported through the Apprenticeship Boost. What we are doing on this side of the House is to support people in ways that they need to get off the benefit and into work and work that is meaningful.Hon Louise Upston: Does she accept that if more people had case management we would see lifetime benefit numbers reduce instead of the 20 percent increase to 12.8 years under her watch?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: As I have said time and again in this House to questions from this member the way that we are supporting people through case management is different. It is more targeted it is working and I think I've already pointed out the figures to show that.Hon Louise Upston: Is she not concerned that benefit dependency has exploded with more people on the jobseeker benefit and staying there for longer at a time that businesses everywhere are looking for staff?Hon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN: As I have said previously we are supporting people to move off benefits and into work that is meaningful. Various figures can point to that and that is work that we will continue to do."