6. Schools—Funding Independent Schools Compared with Public SchoolsCHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) to the Minister of EducationSchools—Funding Independent Schools Compared with Public Schools6. CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) to the Minister of Education: How much do independent schools currently receive per student on average under the current funding model and how much would they receive per student if they received the cost to the Crown of fully funding a student in the State mainstream system?Hon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education): I would like to give a somewhat longer answer than would be usual to be accurate for the House if you would give me some latitude.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The normal course of events is the Minister's office would advise me before question time. I will acknowledge it will be a slightly longer answer but I expect two clear dollar figures to be given. Hon HEKIA PARATA: Current funding arrangements across the education system are complex and do not easily translate into what differences in learning outcomes occurred for individual students whatever option of schooling has been chosen. That is why we are having a comprehensive funding review; we are in the middle of that consultation process. In responding to questions yesterday explaining the rationale for different proposals under consultation I may have led others to believe that I was proposing that independent schools receive the same level of support as a student in the mainstream system. That was not my intention. As I stated in my answers the proposal that independent school funding be linked to per-student funding—which itself is a proposal—is simply a further proposal. The focus is the mechanism not the amount. Independent schools currently receive a capped amount of funding per year. An average can vary from year to year depending on how many children there are and at which year levels. Equally in the mainstream system depending on what schooling option how many children there are at each level in which communities and with what kind of property provision will drive an average at any given time. Averages for different purposes at different points in time could end up being very misleading. Independent schools receive $41.5 million per year as well as the Aspire Scholarship fund which is $4.1 million per year—Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! I have a point of order from the Rt Hon Winston Peters.Rt Hon Winston Peters: If it is the Minister's intention to correct misinformation to the House yesterday this is not the time to do it. She should have done it the moment the House sat this morning.Mr SPEAKER: The member is making a very valid point. It seems to me that the longer answer certainly started earlier with an explanation trying to give some context and meaning to an answer given in the House yesterday. I am still waiting for the answers to some dollar questions. If you cannot give them then advise the House and I will deal with that matter afterwards. Bring the answer to a quick conclusion—it has been going on for long enough.Hon HEKIA PARATA: I was explaining in the introduction why there is not a reliable average so I am giving the totals. Independent schools receive $41.5 million as well as $4.1 million per year for Aspire Scholarships. Total enrolments in 2015 were just under 26900. Last year in primary and secondary schooling we spent over $5.1 billion on more than 728000 kids. It would be misleading the House to state that there is a useful or reliable average for all of the above reasons.Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was indeed a very long answer and I listened very carefully to it. The question was quite specific. It was asking for averages based on current student numbers. The Minister has not actually answered the question. [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: No. I agree entirely with Mr Hipkins. There are some figures given and if you have access to a calculator in the House you will be able to work it out for yourself. It is an answer that I think could have been given. I am not going to ask the question to be repeated because we may find the answer will be repeated and we could be here for a very long time. The way forward is to grant the member two additional supplementary questions.Chris Hipkins: Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Why did she tell the House yesterday that her proposal was to give private schools funding equivalent to how much the Crown would incur if those students were being fully funded in the State mainstream system."?Hon HEKIA PARATA: And as Hansard will reveal in my further answers I said: "I am not proposing—and I want to confirm to the House that these are proposals and available for discussion—that the education system fund all of the costs. I am simply saying that the equitable approach would be to fund more closely to what it would cost the system if those students were fully educated in the publicly funded system."Chris Hipkins: How much more closely to what students are funded in the public school system is she proposing to fund private schools?Hon HEKIA PARATA: That would be a matter that would be a consequence on deciding whether or not a per-student funding approach in the three components that are currently in the proposal actually are finalised.Chris Hipkins: Would funding private schools equivalent to the level that State schools are funded on a per-student basis result in private kids' school funding increasing from around $1400 per student per year to nearly $7000 per student per year—a total of around $150 million extra on a yearly basis?Hon HEKIA PARATA: No because we have different entitlements for instance for funding for kids in Māori-medium. We have different funding levels for kids in alternative education provision. We have different—Hon Ruth Dyson: Average.Hon Trevor Mallard: And averages don't work.Hon HEKIA PARATA: No averages do not work. Thank you—that is exactly what I have been explaining to the House. So what I am saying is that we are doing a funding review precisely because it is so complex precisely because we cannot have a line of sight to how much we are putting in and to the actual educational outcomes and because they vary from year to year. So that is why we are in the middle of a review and I welcome your submissions.Chris Hipkins: Why should private schools which charge parents thousands of dollars per term and some of which currently make significant yearly profits receive additional taxpayer funding when State schools are barely able to make ends meet?Hon HEKIA PARATA: Well the member is making assertions for which there is no actual evidence at the moment. So we know that we are putting a lot of taxpayer funding into Vote Education but we are not getting the equivalent lift in achievement for all children and young people and that is why we are going through a funding review now. We are interested in every New Zealand kid being educationally successful.Chris Hipkins: If providing additional resources and linking resourcing to students who are not achieving is the Government's objective how does increasing funding to students who attend private schools—who already do better on average than students attending State schools—contribute to that objective?Hon HEKIA PARATA: Because that is not the objective. The objective is that we consider a per-student funding approach that begins from how much does it cost to deliver a year of the curriculum how much more does it cost for those kids who are not being successful and how much more in addition for those kids who are at isolated rural schools. The proposal is set out clearly. We do not do per-student funding in the way that the member is reaching for: it differs according to the schooling option. We are getting different outcomes and we are interested in—actually we are committed to—how do we get the best outcomes for every kid in our education system.David Seymour: Is sending one's children to an independent school a legitimate choice for a parent to make?Hon HEKIA PARATA: It absolutely is a legitimate choice for parents to make as it is to send them to partnership schools or to Māori-medium schools to single-sex schools and to coed schools.Chris Hipkins: How does pumping millions of dollars more taxpayer funding into private schools increase choice for the vast majority of parents who cannot afford to pay thousands of dollars a term in tuition fees to send their kids to those schools?Hon HEKIA PARATA: The member seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that only certain parents send their children to independent schools. It is absolutely untrue. There are a range of parents who prioritise that as their choice and they make sacrifices to do that—these are New Zealand students—in the same way that parents choose to send their kids to total immersion Te Reo Māori schools.Chris Hipkins: If the Government's stated goal is to direct extra resources to the students who are the most disadvantaged and most at need how many of the students attending private schools fit into that category?Hon HEKIA PARATA: That is one of our objectives and that is why I explained that the funding model that is up for consultation is a base unit cost for the curriculum and then on top of that for those kids who are disadvantaged. How do we pay more for that? I do not run the rolls of private schools—or indeed of mainstream schools—so I cannot give you those specific answers."