10. Tertiary Education—Fees-free PolicyHon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of EducationTertiary Education—Fees-free Policy10. Hon PAULA BENNETT (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Education: What is the percentage increase in student enrolments at tertiary institutions in April 2018 compared to April 2017 according to the most recent data released by the Tertiary Education Commission?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): Declining tertiary enrolments have stabilised so far in 2018. Domestic EFTS equivalent full-time students in student achievement component - funded level 3 and above qualifications for the year to April 2018 were 0.2 percent below the previous year compared to a decline of almost 6 percent between 2013 and 2017.Hon Paula Bennett: Does he agree then with Universities New Zealand chair and University of Auckland vice-chancellor Stuart McCutcheon who said in regards to demographics and numbers wouldn't have been down considerably because of demographics. The effect is quite small."?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: I have about 20 years in disagreeing with Stuart McCutcheon and his statements about the fees-free policy are no exception to that.Hon Paula Bennett: How does he explain the number of students enrolling in polytechnics and institutes of technology decreasing by 3.2 percent? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: There's a very strong labour market at the moment and history will show that there is a very strong correlation between participation in vocational education and training and a strong labour market. The decline in that area has been significantly less than it had been in previous years but of course we've still got more to do in that space.Hon Paula Bennett: Does he believe that the spend of nearly $2 billion over five years will increase student numbers up to 15 percent like he promised a year ago?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: That's not what we promised. We budgeted very conservatively for the policy because behavioural change is very difficult to predict when you're introducing a policy such as this. What we do know is that 25000 fewer students have borrowed for their fees this year. That is a successful outcome. Student debt has gone—well has not increased by $150 million that it otherwise would have increased by were it not for this policy. Hon Paula Bennett: If the policy was to encourage low socio-economic students into tertiary education does he agree with Stuart McCutcheon who said "If the objective was to make it easier for students from disadvantaged parts of our society to go to university then it absolutely hasn't worked"; if so will he take Mr Whelan's advice that "It's probably a good time for the Government to stop and think what it's trying to achieve from this policy?"Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: As I indicated in my earlier answer no I don't agree with Stuart McCutcheon on that. The Government has been very clear—and the fees-free policy was very clear from the beginning—that we want to reduce the level of debt New Zealanders are starting their working lives with. That will have a significant equity benefit because those from lower incomes won't be put off studying by the astronomical costs that they currently face and they will be able to be debt-free faster following their study and they will therefore be in a position to buy a first home or start a family or those other things that they have been put off doing by the high levels of debt they currently finish their study and training with. It's also important to remember that the majority of people who benefit from fees free are not university students.Hon Paula Bennett: Why is there no additional funding in Budget 2018 for universities or industry training organisations for apprenticeships?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: University funding and apprenticeship funding are demand-driven so I don't accept the member's assertion.Jo Luxton: Is the change in overall enrolments in line with officials' estimates at the time the fees-free programme was developed?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS: Yes. Prior to the fees-free policy being developed we were forecasting significant declines. The previous Government had been forecasting significant declines in participation. As the Cabinet paper that I've put up made it very clear we were anticipating—or hoping—that the fees-free policy would result in that situation stabilising and that is exactly what has happened."