Power Simon: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Power Simon: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:633;Page:4896] 
9.  
SIMON POWER (National—Rangitikei) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Did Department of Corrections staff or its contractors follow correct procedure in transporting Liam Ashley from court to prison in light of the Prime Minister’s comment that “Procedures will have to be looked at.”? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 This issue is currently subject to five separate inquiries. Until the results of the investigations are made available it would be inappropriate for me to comment. Yesterday however I issued a directive to the Department of Corrections that prohibits the transport of prisoners under the age of 18 in the same compartment as adult prisoners until the completion of the nspector of corrections’ investigation. 
Simon Power 
: Can the Minister confirm that the agreement between the Department of Corrections and Chubb specifies at numerous points that prisoners under 20 must be segregated from all other prisoners when they are being transported “unless otherwise agreed with the Department of Corrections”; if so does he agree that it is not the procedures that are the problem but the lack of adherence to them? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As I said I am not prepared to prejudge the outcome of those inquiries. For the member’s benefit though regardless of whether Chubb the Department of Corrections or the police are responsible I say that the law states that when outside a prison prisoners under 18 years of age must be kept apart from adult prisoners where practicable. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Can the Minister tell the House whether leading to this tragedy if Chubb Security is found to have been in breach of the terms of its contract the Government will insist that the Department of Corrections withdraw the contract from it; if not why not? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: That contract which was initiated in 1998 will be looked at very carefully as part of the five inquiries currently under way. Decisions will be made at the conclusion of those investigations as to where to go next to ensure that this horrible tragedy does not occur again. 
Dr Pita Sharples 
: Tena koe Madam Speaker. Tena tatou katoa. Why did the Department of Corrections not take immediate action when the lawyer of Liam Ashley informed the court hearing last week that the deceased had been picked on by other inmates and had prior to being transferred required a mental health assessment such was his level of stress; and what procedures are in place to ensure at-risk inmates are not placed further at risk? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As I said I am not prepared to comment on the sad and tragic set of circumstances that led to this horrible death other than to say that protocols are in place that ensure the safe and secure transportation of prisoners under 18 years of age and over 18 years of age. We trust that they are always implemented but the investigations will identify where mistakes may have been made. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: In light of the focus of questions today on the adherence of Chubb to the contracts and the support of many parties in this House for the privatisation of prisons can the Minister assure us that the contracting-out of Department of Corrections’ responsibilities to a private company in no way contributed to this death? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I am not going to prejudge the outcomes of the inquiries but I will say that regardless of whether the contracts are with private providers or whether we are carrying out these services ourselves we must ensure that we protect prisoners in prison and outside of prison as well. 
Simon Power 
: Why has the Minister instructed the Department of Corrections to separate youths and adults without exception when the agreement between the Department of Corrections and Chubb already specifies that prisoners under 20 must be segregated from all other prisoners “unless otherwise agreed with the Department of Corrections”; and is he suggesting that it is the Department of Corrections that is mixing young inmates with older inmates? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As I stated before for that member the law actually states that when outside of prison they should be kept apart from adult prisoners where practicable. Obviously this will be one of the areas that will be investigated along with the contract between the Department of Corrections and Chubb. I am not prepared to prejudge the outcome of those investigations. 
Simon Power 
: Can he confirm that under the Corrections Act security monitors must be appointed for each contractor who must report to the chief executive on whether they are complying with their contract every 3 months and that under Chubb’s contract it must report to the security monitor every month including information about the segregation of prisoners; if so was there any suggestion in those reports of any problems? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As the member states there is monthly reporting on performance from these contracts. I am not aware of any issues that were raised. I will say though that since 1998 when his colleagues signed up to the original contract there have been 220000 transfers. Of those 7600 were youths and thankfully we have not had a terrible tragedy like this before. That is why we are investigating this incident thoroughly. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: When the Minister says that the requirement to keep young people separate from adult prisoners has the rider “where practicable” can he absolutely assure this House that that does not mean that a desire to cut costs by stuffing vans full of as many prisoners as possible will override the requirement to keep young people separate? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: I have moved in the interim to ensure that the “where practicable” requirement be set aside so that no prisoners under the age of 18 will be transported with adult prisoners until the conclusion of this inquiry. Obviously the issue and the term “where practicable” will be thoroughly investigated. There are many issues—cost not being one of them—that we have to consider in protecting prisoners in courtrooms in prison cells and in their transportation to and from prisons and the courts. 
Simon Power 
: What action will he take under the convention of individual ministerial responsibility if his department is found to be wanting in this series of tragic events? 
Hon DAMIEN O'CONNOR 
: As I said before I am not prepared to prejudge the outcomes of any of these inquiries. I suggest he looks for more information to his colleague the Hon Nick Smith who signed up this original contract.