Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:614;Page:10574] 
3.  
GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Has she been informed of the report in this morning’s  
New Zealand Herald 
 which asserts that Te Ope Mana a Tai met with Hon Dr Michael Cullen 2 weeks ago and “appeared to be in agreement” but “he had later told the group Cabinet colleagues railroaded him when they knocked back a paper he had taken to them on the issue”; if so what were the proposals knocked back by Cabinet? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister) 
: 
 The Prime Minister is aware of the general tenor of the article and is also aware that it is wrong. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: If the assertions are wrong is she aware that at a 4 December meeting with Te Ope Mana a Tai Dr Cullen did tell them that the Government proposes to settle the seabed and foreshore issue by issuing customary title which will be available to recognise mana whenua as well as specific use rights; and is this a change in her position of full public ownership as stated in August? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes and no. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Will the Prime Minister give the House a simple assurance that the proposals that the Government is considering will advance equally and without prejudice the interests of all New Zealanders and that no new or exclusive rights that are not otherwise provided for will be created for any category of New Zealanders when these proposals are finalised? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I can give that assurance. Indeed for the vast majority of the population there will be no change from the position as it is at the present time. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Why does the Prime Minister not simply front up to the Parliament and the people of New Zealand stating clearly the Government’s foreshore and seabed policy instead of engaging with meetings of self-selecting interested parties at the risk of being accused of duplicity by giving different messages to the different parties? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: At this minute she is on a plane and it makes it difficult for her to front up to Parliament. It has actually been the Deputy Prime Minister’s job to have these meetings not the Prime Minister’s. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question was put down to the Prime Minister; the Deputy Prime Minister in this instance is answering on behalf of the Prime Minister. He cannot just dismiss the question saying the Prime Minister is not here; therefore he will not answer it properly. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think the member has a certain point there. I will ask the Deputy Prime Minister just to expand a bit on his answer. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am the Acting Prime Minister and not speaking on behalf of the Prime Minister. As I said the Deputy Prime Minister has been having these meetings not the Prime Minister having them and not fronting up to Parliament. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is now an occasion of the silly semantics that give Parliament a bad name. Mr Cullen is getting up and saying: “I am Acting Prime Minister” then referring to “the Deputy Prime Minister”—as if he were two different people. As Acting Prime Minister why does he not tell Parliament what the foreshore policy is then he would not be accused of being duplicitous? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let me put it this way: if that had been the question then he would have had to answer it. I understood him to say that at this moment he is the Acting Prime Minister which is correct. However he then said that the Prime Minister was not having the meetings but that the Deputy Prime Minister who is the member Dr Cullen was having them. I could understand that perfectly. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That will not do at all. If he is the Acting Prime Minister then he is the Prime Minister. So when Mr Shirley gets up and says: “Why doesn’t the Prime Minister do X or Y?” he is clearly referring to Dr Cullen and Dr Cullen ought to answer why he is prepared to tell all sorts of self-selected groups what the Government’s policy is but is not prepared to tell this Parliament. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: That is a question I would be happy to answer but it was not the question. If the member would like to ask that question I would be happy to give an answer to it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Perhaps the Hon Ken Shirley could restate his question with the information we have just received. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Why does the Acting Prime Minister who has been meeting with self-selecting interested parties around the country not front up to Parliament and tell it and the people of New Zealand what his Government’s policy is? Then he would not be accused of duplicity by giving different messages to different audiences. 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I am not giving different messages to any audience. I look forward to meeting with Federated Farmers which has finally had the courtesy to ring my office and ask for a meeting and telling it exactly the same message. What the member is ignoring if he cares to listen—[ 
Interruption 
] I have the microphone so I can go louder—is that the policy is not yet finalised. I have been discussing proposals with a variety of groups to get their feedback. I do not propose to discuss the matter with members opposite because they show no inclination to engage seriously on the issue. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Acting Prime Minister—or whatever he calls himself now—why it is better to talk to everybody outside Parliament rather than people inside Parliament and inside this Chamber; second why has he asked other parties to join an ad hoc select committee if the last comment he made is remotely true? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Because it is a function of this Parliament that all parties are represented on select committees according to their proportionality. We could in fact have sent bills to select committees that that member’s party is not represented on. I shall be happy to discuss the proposals with members when they are finalised. I will be discussing the proposals with some parties before they are finalised. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. First I ask whether the question is to the Acting Prime Minister or to the Prime Minister as it was set down. The last two questions have been asked of the Acting Prime Minister and answered in the first person by that Minister. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is to the Prime Minister. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Secondly I seek leave for there to be a debate immediately following question time so that parties on this side of the House can voice their opinion on this matter since we note that the Government intends making its announcement once Parliament has shut down for the year. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to have a debate. Is there any objection? There is. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: At the 4 December meeting with Te Ope Mana a Tai did the Prime Minister understand that Dr Michael Cullen the Hon Parekura Horomia and the Hon John Tamihere agreed with each other that mana whenua title would translate into iwi hapu or whanau having full authority over the seabed and foreshore specified in their customary title? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: No. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Noting the series of points that were presented to that meeting would the Prime Minister agree with the Hon John Tamihere that in his view a development proposal in an area covered by customary title with as low a level of interest as ingress or egress across the relevant area would result effectively in that iwi hapu or whanau having complete control over whether the project could progress or a consent be issued? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: The member will have to wait for full details of the proposals when they are finalised on Monday. They have yet to be finalised. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Given that this is an issue that concerns the whole of New Zealand and all representatives of New Zealanders who sit in this House I again seek leave for the House to have a debate immediately following question time so that it might discuss this matter before Parliament is shut down for the year. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to have that debate. Is there any objection? There is.