Flavell Te Ururoa: Human Tissue Bill — In Committee 
Flavell Te Ururoa: Human Tissue Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:643;Page:13056] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 Tena koe e te Mangai o te Whare. Kia ora tatou i tenei po. Kua tu ake ki te whakamarama i nga korero e pa ana ki tenei take me te ki ka korerohia nga korero i te reo Maori. Na runga i te aha? Na runga i te mea he take nui rawa atu tenei ki te ao Maori. Ko tenei pire i heria haerehia i te mata o te whenua i nga wiki kua hipa ake me te patai i te marea a tena pehea o koutou whakaaro mo tenei pire? Me ki mo tata ki te kotahi tau i naianei ko au tetahi kua heri tenei pire me ona korero katoa ki roto i te marea ki te whakamatautau i te hohonutanga o tenei o nga pire kia ngai tatau. 
Kua tu ake ano ra i te mea na Tariana Turia tetahi pepa apitihanga hei whakatakoto ki mua i te aroaro o te Whare i tenei po. Ka riro maku tera pepa e korero. 
Ko te mate ke o tenei pire e hoa ma he ahua noho tukituki nei i Te Ao Maori me te ao Pakeha na runga i te rere ketanga o te whakaaro mo te katoa o te tinana o te tangata te wairua o te tangata enei ahua tangata katoa e korerohia nei e tatau. 
Kei te mohio tonu au ruarua noa iho nga ingoa Maori kai runga i te rarangi ingoa o te motu ruarua noa iho. 
Na e rua nga wahanga i korerohia e au i whakamaramatia ake e au me ki ki nga hoa. Tuatahi tera e pa ana ki te tuku o te tangata ora i tetahi wahanga o tana tinana ki tetahi atu tangata e ora tonu ana. Penei i a Jona Lomu. A tera korero tera. Ka rua mena kua mate tetahi tangata ka mutu ko tetahi wahanga o tana tinana e pai ana mo tetahi atu. No reira koi nei nga uauatanga i roto i nga korero i korerohia ko nga huarahi e rua. Na i ahua rongo nei nga taringa o Te Ao Maori ki tera raruraru o te tangata e ahua tata mate nei me te koha i tetahi wahanga o tana tinana ki tetahi atu kia ora tonu atu a ia. Ae i ahua rata mai etahi ki tera. Tera te take nui rawa atu ki Te Ao Maori ko te tangata tata mate mate ranei me te koha o tetahi wahanga o tana tinana ki tetahi kia ora tonu a ia. 
I kite tatau i tera take nui i roto o Tamaki-makau-rau i nga tau kua hipa ara ko te ngaronga o etahi wahanga o te tinana o te tangata i te hohipera a ka hoki ki te whanau katahi ka rongo te whanau ha kua ngaro tetahi wahanga o te tinana. Katahi ka ohorere. E ai ki ta Te Ao Maori kia haere te tangata ki te kopu o Papatuanuku me haere katoa a ia. Kia kaua e waiho tetahi wahanga ki ko ki ko ki te hohipera ki hea ranei. 
No reira waiho tera korero ki reira. Ka hoki ki te wahanga tuarua ko tetahi take nui whakaharahara i korerohia i roto i te panuitanga tuatahi tuarua ko tera e pa ana ki te ahei o te whanau ki te whakatau i nga korero katoa mo tera tangata i runga ake i tona ake hiahia tona ake whakatau. Koi nei te putake o te pepa aptihanga nei a Tariana Turia o tera mea. Kia kore te ao Pakeha e tami i Te Ao Maori engari kia ahei te ao Maori ki te whai i tana e pirangi nei. 
[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
[ 
Greetings to you Mr Chairman and to us tonight. I rise to explain matters relating to this bill and to say as well that I will speak in Maori. And for what purpose? Because this matter is of huge significance to Maori. This bill has been taken about the country in the past weeks with the public being asked their views on it. That has been going on for nearly a year now and I was one of those who took this bill and all the information about it amongst the public to make an in-depth examination of it for our people. 
I rise as well because amongst the Supplementary Order Papers to be placed before the House tonight is one from Tariana Turia which I will be addressing. 
The real problem with this bill is that there is a slight clash of viewpoints between a Maori and a non-Maori perspective in respect of the total human body its spirituality and all aspects of the human body that we are debating.  
I am well aware that the number of Maori names listed in the national register is minimal—very small indeed.  
I have talked about two areas and explained the matter in detail to colleagues. Firstly there is the situation of a living person donating part of his or her body to another living person like Jonah Lomu. Secondly there is the situation where a person dies and a part of his or her body is suitable for someone else. So difficulties such as those two are what we are hearing about. The difficulty facing a person near death about donating a part of his or her body to someone else so that the other person may live longer has come to the attention of Maoridom in a somewhat indirect way. Yes some are gratified by that. For a person near death gifting a part of his or her body or for one who plans to so before dying to prolong the life of someone else is regarded in the Maori world as a very important issue. 
We saw the consequence of that in an issue in Auckland some years back which escalated when some body parts were misplaced in the hospital. When the body was returned to the family they discovered much to their alarm that parts of it were missing. What a panic it created! From a Maori cultural perspective the entire body goes back to the bosom of mother Earth. Body parts are never to be left here there in hospital or wherever. 
So let us leave that point there. I go back to the second part to a crucial and very important point that was made in the first and second reading of the bill relating to the family’s ability to settle everything over and above what a person wishes or deems personally. That is the crux of Tariana Turia’s Supplementary Order Paper in that Pakeha perspectives should never suppress the world of Maori and that it should retain its ability to pursue that which it desires 
.]  
Ka pai kati ake kua rahi tera. Mr Chairman kia huri ki te reo Pakeha 
[ 
Enough. That is sufficient. Mr Chairman I shall turn to English 
] to catch up on some of the key issues. Firstly I will catch up again on this issue that I have taken on the road and tried to test out amongst Maori communities. I have to say that the reaction has been varied. We have attempted to do this for over a year or so. 
The two key concerns seem to be in the clash of ideology—or philosophy if you like—in respect of how we view death how we view body parts and so on. Those are the issues that seem to come up. There were two lines that really interested people. One of those lines concerned when a person is still alive and donates his or her body parts or tissues to another person. Some understood that there is a connection there—in particular say with one’s own child. Also some of our people understood the issue of somebody gifting a body part to somebody else. 
The other issue in respect of a person who is dying or close to death giving organs to somebody else in order to allow that person to live almost seemed to be at odds with how people really felt about it. Until one is in that situation one will never really understand how important those sorts of issues are. As we went around discussing this I noted that not a lot of Maori were on the register and it would be fair to say of course that many Maori would be the ones who would be screaming out for some of the organs or body parts that we are talking about. 
The issue that Tariana Turia has raised by way of her Supplementary Order Paper is very very serious in terms of Te Ao Maori. Although I understand from Tariana Turia some of those concerns were also raised by a number of submitters in the Health Committee both in respect of this bill and Jackie Blue’s those issues are so serious that we felt it appropriate to put up a Supplementary Order Paper. Although the Maori Party fully acknowledges that many New Zealanders believe that they themselves as individuals should have the sole right to decide the fate of their bodies upon death it is not a belief that generally fits within tikanga Maori. In a tikanga context appreciation needs to be given also to the collective wishes of the whanau alongside those of the individual. Although the Maori Party holds the expectation that all legislation should recognise tikanga Maori as was anticipated in the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi this is especially so with any legislation concerning whakapapa material. I suppose it is an entirely reasonable expectation that in Aotearoa New Zealand any laws concerning human remains could acknowledge the world view of tangata whenua thereby giving recognition to the rights of the collective alongside Western World views that give precedence to the rights of the individual. The purpose of our Supplementary Order Paper is to open the bill’s consent framework to both world views and create a truly bicultural law. Given the presence of both our nation’s and other culture’s world views that esteem the collective there is also the opportunity to create a multicultural law. 
The real concerns that came up in our discussions have been about the ability for the whanau to overrule the desires of anybody who might be passing on or that sort of situation—the part that the whanau might play in respect of decision making. I suppose it all came to a head last week at a hui back home where there were some judges. I put it to them to discuss this question: if somebody was passing away who in the end should have the overriding say? Firstly a person who was actually dying by way of a will; secondly his or her whanau if they happened to be looking after that particular person over a long period of time; or in our case in our construct iwi Maori? On a straw vote we came to an end result; it was a three-way split. Everybody was pretty much convinced that yes the individual has some rights and yes the family has some rights but in particular Te Ao Maori have some rights as well. For example some might say that it is appropriate for us to pick up our tupapaku and take him or her back to the marae because in not doing that one may as well burn down the wharenui if that will not be the place where we can lay our dead to rest. 
Now I know that is really opening up the debate to a real big picture in respect of this but I am trying to make the point that this is part of the discussion that happens amongst Maori communities and we want to make some sort of presence felt in respect of this issue on the back of Tariana Turia’s Supplementary Order Paper. We hope the Committee will give it its full attention when we get to that point. Kia ora tatou.