edithatogo/nz-hansard-corpus huggingface dataset:
Webb Duncan; Edmonds BarbaraCLERK: Honourable members the House must now proceed to choose a Speaker. I remind members they are to participate remotely and proxy votes may not be cast. If members participating remotely want to make a nomination please type call" into the chat. Are there any nominations?Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip—Labour): I nominate Adrian Rurawhe for the office of Speaker.BARBARA EDMONDS (Junior Whip—Labour): I second the nomination of Adrian Rurawhe for the office of Speaker.CLERK: Are there any other nominations? There being no other nominations I declare Adrian Rurawhe elected Speaker.Waiata"
Hipkins ChrisHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House): Mr Clerk I am requested by Her Excellency the Governor-General to inform the House that it is Her Excellency's desire that the House should proceed to choose one of its members as its Speaker and in accordance with section 12 of the Constitution Act of 1986 present that person at Government House at 4 p.m. today for Her Excellency's confirmation.ELECTION OF SPEAKER
EventWEDNESDAY 24 AUGUST 2022The House met at 2 p.m.OFFICE OF SPEAKERVacancyCLERK: Honourable members I wish to advise the House that the office of Speaker is vacant.MESSAGE FROM GOVERNOR-GENERAL
Tuesday 23 August 2022 - Volume 762
VoteA party vote was called for on the question That the Children and Young People's Commission Bill be now read a third time.Ayes 64New Zealand Labour 64.Noes 55New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati Māori 2.Motion agreed to.Bill read a third time.
Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and Children and Young People's Commission Bill — Third Reading
VoteA party vote was called for on the question That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill be now read a third time.Ayes 64New Zealand Labour 64.Noes 55New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati Māori 2.Motion agreed to.Bill read a third time.
VoteA party vote was called for on the question That the motion be agreed to.Ayes 55New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati Māori 2.Noes 64New Zealand Labour 64.Motion not agreed to.Third Readings
VoteA party vote was called for on the question That the motion be agreed to.Ayes 75New Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.Noes 43New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.Motion agreed to.SPEAKER: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill.
7. Question No. 7—HealthDr SHANE RETI (National) to the Minister of HealthQuestion No. 7—Health7. Dr SHANE RETI (National) to the Minister of Health: How many people if any waited longer than 24 hours in an emergency department over the past month?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health): I'm advised by health officials that the latest available data is for June 2022. I can confirm that 540 people waited longer than 24 hours in an emergency department (ED) in the month of June 2022. I'm further advised that two of those 540 self-discharged after 24 hours. I note that this winter has seen extraordinary pressure on hospitals caused by a combination of the ongoing incidence of the COVID-19 virus the worst cluster flu season in many years and elevated levels of staff absenteeism. Dr Shane Reti: What does he say to the Whangārei person who is reported today as waiting more than 30 hours in the emergency department? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I think the important thing is that people who presented to an emergency department are assessed for their acuity and then eventually get the treatment that they need and that is happening around ED departments around the country and has been all these months. Dr Shane Reti: How many people then if any have left an emergency department recently without being seen when he wrote to me that in May alone nearly 1000 people left Middlemore ED without being seen? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I can't confirm the number of those who say they haven't been seen. What the hospitals do gather data on is those who present and are assessed and the time that they wait to either be treated or discharged or admitted is recorded.Dr Shane Reti: What responsibility does he take for the notification today that from next Monday Rāwene Hospital—one of the most remote hospitals in the country—will not be providing after-hours emergency department services which means people will have to travel great distances from the Hokianga to either Kaitāia or Kawakawa? Hon ANDREW LITTLE: It was previously the responsibility of the Northland District Health Board and now the responsibility of Te Whatu Ora Health New Zealand to ensure that primary care in their particular regions is supported—that doesn't just include primary care but aged residential care. We know that some primary care clinics such as the one in the Hokianga have been struggling in terms of staff complement but I am satisfied that all possible support that can be provided by Te Whatu Ora Health New Zealand is being provided. Dr Shane Reti: How many hospitals if any have had emergency department patients wait in tents in the carpark and have any children been made to wait in a tent outside a hospital ED in the past month?Hon ANDREW LITTLE: I'm not aware of any hospital that has seen a patient waiting in the carpark.Dr Shane Reti: You told me Tauranga Middlemore Starship.Hon ANDREW LITTLE: There was an erroneous report from a so-called anonymous source for Middlemore who was wrong but I also know that some EDs have established marquee arrangements to triage patients for COVID before they are then formally entered into the ED for assessment or for treatment discharge or admission.
4. Question No. 4—Arts Culture and HeritageNAISI CHEN (Labour) to the Minister for Arts Culture and HeritageQuestion No. 4—Arts Culture and Heritage4. NAISI CHEN (Labour) to the Minister for Arts Culture and Heritage: What announcements has she made about artists' resale royalties?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Arts Culture and Heritage): Last week I announced that the Government is establishing an artists' resale royalty scheme. The Artist Resale Royalty Scheme will support and recognise the work of our visual artists by ensuring that a royalty is collected when their work is sold on the resale market. The scheme will be a flat rate of 5 percent before any additions deductions or any other charges ensuring it does not place too large a burden on buyers sellers and art market professionals.Naisi Chen: Why is this announcement important?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: This announcement is important for a number of reasons and has been over 15 years in the making. It's about fairness and underlines our Government's commitment to honouring the tremendous artistic skill and creativity of so many of our visual artists. It is part of our free-trade agreement with the UK and the EU and places Aotearoa New Zealand alongside more than 80 other countries who now have resale royalty schemes aligning with common international practice. My thanks go to all the proponents who have pushed for this and those who have started the journey toward where we are today including the former Minister for Arts Culture and Heritage and the Associate Minister for Arts Culture and Heritage the Rt Hon Helen Clark and the Hon Judith Tizard.Naisi Chen: What feedback has she seen on this announcement?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I note Wairau Māori Art Gallery Chair Elizabeth Ellis said upon sharing our announcement with a range of Māori arts practitioners friends colleagues and associates Without fail they all sent enthusiastic excited replies supporting the Scheme. Voices of the arts practitioners young and old from the Creative Sector called out from studios marae galleries wānanga universities and museums. Their words echoed in every reply to my email 'Tautoko' 'Support' 'Endorse' 'Tautoko te Kaupapa Nui' 'Long Overdue'." And artist Judy Darragh said "this decision truly is a gamechanger for artists around Aotearoa.""
New Zealand Bill of Rights (Declarations of Inconsistency) Amendment Bill — Third Reading
Salesa JennyASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa): Members the House is suspended until 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. Pō mārie.Sitting suspended from 9.56 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)
White Helen; Salesa JennyHELEN WHITE (Labour): It's a privilege to take a call on a piece of legislation that is so well-thought-out and is a rather deep piece of work and it's something I'd like to acknowledge the speakers on both sides of the House for really revealing in their speeches tonight.Parliamentary sovereignty is so important and it is always something that there will be debate about but I fall firmly on the side of believing that it's very important that we always protect it even when we don't necessarily like the consequences of that and we may see something that we think breaches and offends something fundamental to us like a human right.What this bill does is it creates a process where if those things that are most enshrined as fundamental to us—and they have been brought into legislation like the Human Rights Act and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act—they are actually things that we take very seriously. Not only do we do that but this is a beautifully crafted piece of legislation because we're required to talk about it. We're actually required—the Minister is required to answer questions about it. It's a situation where there will be some thought given to the matter perhaps after the heat and the passion of the debate has passed.This piece of legislation came about partly because of a case about prisoner voting rights. People in that situation had very very little alternative remedy other than to go to the courts and they gave a declaration. This is what will happen to the declarations now. This is a very good process and I'm thrilled to be part of a Parliament passing it. I commend the bill to the House.ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa): I call on Golriz Ghahraman who is connecting with us remotely.
Webb DuncanDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you Madam Speaker. I don't intend to speak too long after two very good speeches if I can say that from Mr Goldsmith and of course the Attorney-General the most reasonable and thoughtful member in the House to be sure. But can I say what a privilege it is to actually be speaking and be involved in this bill which is really one of those pieces of legislation about how the limits of the constitution work with each other—and I do see that I have spoken for seven minutes already according to the clock but that's all right. I must have been speaking very slowly indeed. But look can I just say that this is a sophisticated answer to a very difficult problem because if we look at some other constitutions we have either the absolute sovereignty of Parliament or the absolute sovereignty of the courts whereas this ameliorates that and essentially it says that through a series of steps Parliament the courts and the executive have to have a conversation with each other. There may be a declaration of inconsistency as Mr Goldsmith said. A decision of the court which does that will be very thoughtful and carefully worked through and that is then notified to Parliament and Parliament through its select committee process is expected to examine that and to further put the case if you like for whatever solution they respectfully might think of to the executive who in turn is expected to respond. Now that's not going to be a quick process. The court process itself could take several years because it's triggered by a final decision which means the conclusion of any appeal rights. But the fact of the matter is that unlike some of the situations where we've seen—and the three-strikes legislation has been discussed already. The kinds of difficulties that the court had with that legislation were because it was so repugnant to some of the rights held so dear and those decisions are difficult to read on the words of the legislation as it then stood. But this kind of framework enables the courts to put their views in a way which demands a response. It isn't simply saying We're striking it down." It's saying "We don't see this the same way that Parliament has and we want to hear from Parliament and the executive about that." and that's a much more nuanced approach than the kind of approach we've seen in some other jurisdictions which are all or nothing. So I think as was said earlier this shows that we are a mature democracy and also a unique democracy—a democracy that looks at different ways of doing things that suit our quite unique committee structure in Parliament—and the fact is that we're a relatively small nation and we can do things in a very personal and almost intimate way even though we're dealing with matters of State. So I think that this is a real model. I hope it will be looked at as perhaps a way that we can have an ongoing conversation around the balance to be struck between rights and Government policy and between parliamentary sovereignty and judicial integrity and I absolutely commend this bill to the House."
SpeechTĀMATI COFFEY (Labour): Thank you Madam Speaker. Child protection especially in a New Zealand context is always emotive. We've long-known that policy can be driven by moral panic overdetermined by either the death or abuse of children while at home or while in care. So when speakers of this House stand and they speak authentically about this issue it is a real issue. It's an issue in all of our communities around the country.The previous speaker spoke about how terrible this bill's going to be but actually it was her Government that sat on their hands for so long and did nothing to actually really address the root causes that were systemically wrong in our child protection agencies. So I thank the Minister for actually stepping up to the plate and choosing to do something that she believes is actually going to make a real difference for the future of our systems in New Zealand and the way that we look after our children.But this journey isn't a new thing. This journey started back in 2017. It was underpinned by our Government's focus and commitment to overhauling Oranga Tamariki. That's right people have forgotten that; that actually we were the ones that stepped up to the plate in Government to say that we are going to reform this and we're going to do it with prudence as well.So the 2018 Beatie report highlighted how inadequate our system of oversight really was which is why we acted really quickly to ensure that that oversight was strengthened. And yes we've had a robust select committee process but yes we've also made some changes too. We've retained the Chief Children's Commissioner. We've strengthened the independence of the monitor. We've reduced the review period from five years right the way down to three years. Because you know what it's OK to admit that we're trying to change the system that desperately needs changing. Being able to shorten that period in which a review takes place is I'm sure welcomed by many around this House.This is a very necessary piece of legislation. I thank the Minister. I thank all of those people that have contributed to it. I look forward to the review in three years' time so we can look over our shoulder and actually see how this has gone. If changes need to be made let's make those changes but let's not be afraid to actually push on and try to do as much as we can with the time that we've got for the benefit of our children our tamariki and our mokopuna yet to be born. I commend this bill to the House.
SpeechGLEN BENNETT (Labour—New Plymouth): Kia ora Madam Speaker thank you this evening. Obviously it has been quite an evening. I'm glad—I'm glad—that there has been this amount of passion this amount of concern this amount of care for our tamariki for our rangatahi.This afternoon it was a privilege to have one of my foster boys here in Parliament showing him around—someone who has been through the system who has come out the other side. We had a conversation around this legislation. For example I asked him: did he know who the Children's Commissioner was? He had no idea. Did you ever consider or understand who this was? And then as I went through and listed off—because in many ways what I've heard this evening has been around this space with our Children's Commissioner that role that I value but I see more value with this piece of legislation where it is this group of people with a lead Children's Commissioner. But as I read through the list of Children's Commissioners since 1989 when Labour established the Children's Commission I saw as always mostly men mostly Pākehā men. So to see the diversity that we can bring with the Children's Commission when we can have a Commissioner that's around disability that's around our Pasifika that's around Māori that's around other spaces and places within our society I think that brings richness—that brings richness—into this space.Now this will be reviewed. And this is part of legislation that will be explored because it will allow time one for it to be imbedded but secondly it will allow time in terms of when the royal commission comes back in its finding and recommendations. As part of this legislation it will be considered it will be reflected on and will then look to be incorporated into what is to come in this future piece of legislation.I am in this House for our rangatahi and our tamariki. I would not be supporting this bill if I did not believe it was going to some way to the safety and the protection of our children and of our young people and I am confident. We need to do something. I believe that this is a way forward and I commend this bill to the House.
Simmonds PennyPENNY SIMMONDS (National—Invercargill): Thank you Madam Speaker. I take this short call to speak in opposition to the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People's Commission Bill. The objective of the bill is to promote and improve the Oranga Tamariki welfare system and improve outcomes for children and young people in New Zealand. I just can't help wondering having listened to this debate and having looked at the process that's gone on what sort of path of destruction this Government is on. To go against such a long list of knowledgeable people in this sector—people that are representing the voices of young people a royal commission an ex-leader of the Labour Party—what sort of path of destruction could this Government possibly be on to be going against all these voices that are speaking up against this bill? If it is such a good bill someone would be supporting it but the Government should look around. There isn't one party in this Parliament that is supporting it. There isn't anyone in this sector that is supporting it. So why are they holding so steadfastly to this absolute obsession they have got to push something like this through when there is so much opposition to it? I heard one of the Government MPs speak—and you had to be quick to hear them because they spoke for only a couple of minutes so they obviously don't have a lot to say about it. But one of them spoke of her experience in this sector. Now I found it amazing that she could be so disconnected and so disengaged from this sector to be speaking in support of this bill when the sector have overwhelmingly spoken against it and that member should be reflecting on how so quickly she got herself disengaged from this sector. I listened to a colleague Jan Logie from the Green Party who quoted a submitter who said If you were truly sorry you would listen." and actions speak so much louder than words. So to say that you're sorry and then go and ignore the voices again and ram this through is not being sorry; it's disrespectful of those voices. I cannot understand why this Government wants to be so disrespectful to groups that come at this from such a point of expertise. VOYCE is the entity that stands for the voice of the young and care-experienced. There is nobody that knows better than this group and there is no one that is speaking more loudly on behalf of these young people than VOYCE and to ignore them is just disrespectful and nothing short of unbelievable in the context of what has gone on in this sector. It is very difficult to understand what is motivating the Government with this. Much has been said about the fact that it is only a very short time until the royal commission will be reporting back. Surely surely any Government making any decisions around something as important as the care and the safety and the wellbeing of our young people would want to be as well-informed as they possibly could. So it defies belief that this Government is ramming this bill through against so much opposition."
Salesa JennyDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour): Thank you Madam Speaker. Wanting to ensure that all children and young people grow up and reach their full potential is one of the reasons I stood for Parliament. Unfortunately for many children and young people they need extra support to make sure that this can occur.But the problem is that we've got to make sure that the systems we put in place to do that actually get monitored adequately. We also need to make sure that for children and young people receiving care and support they know who to go to if they've got complaints about that care. I think it's also really important that the voices of children and young people are heard at the highest level. As we've heard tonight across the House this hasn't always been the case.So what this bill does is aims to address all of these three issues. What it looks at doing is strengthening the role of the Children's Commissioner in advocacy by putting in place the Children and Young Peoples' Commission that's got a broader range of skills and experience around the table and also ensuring that children and young people know where they can go to if they want to complain about the care by making sure that the ombudsman has got a very very visible complaints process and that children and young people are supported in being able to access and make complaints. But it's also important that we've got an independent monitor that can oversee the Oranga Tamariki system because we really need to make sure that some of those things that have happened in the past never happen again.I would like to thank all of those who made submissions on this bill because it resulted in some really significant changes. This is an important bill and I'm very happy to commend it to the House.ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa): The next call is a split call. I call on Penny Simmonds for five minutes.
SpeechANAHILA KANONGATA'A-SUISUIKI (Labour): Kia ora e te Mana Whakawā. It's a huge honour for me as a registered social worker to make a brief contribution on the third reading of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People's Commission Bill. I would like to acknowledge the leadership of the Minister Carmel Sepuloni who shepherded these two bills which have been in the making since 2017. I want to acknowledge the children and young people and their families who have had negative experiences in this system. I want to further acknowledge those who chose to work in this system and will continue to do so. I would like to acknowledge all the submitters who submitted on this bill. The Minister reminded us there was a need for loud voices to advocate who are not afraid to call out the Government. This bill the Children and Young People's Commission Bill makes this happen by establishing the Children and Young People's Commission Bill. We heard at select committee from children and young people that they didn't know where we are to take their complaints. The Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill places a requirement on the Ombudsman to ensure the complaints process is visible and accessible for children and young people and their family whānau hapū and iwi. I stand here to commend this bill to the House based on my 30 years' experience in the system as a youth justice social worker a senior practitioner a social work supervisor a youth justice manager a site manager a regional manager and in my role in chairing the Auckland Pacific Islands Network APIN at Oranga Tamariki where the workers developed the Pacific practice framework which the Saunoamali'i later came in and completed it and named it Va'aifetū. Va'aifetū is a practical guide for integrating Pacific cultures into practice in pursuit of best outcomes for Pacific children through the system. I mention this so that the commissioners who will have this honour will know that there is there is a practice for Pacific people in Oranga Tamariki. I'm particularly proud of Mo'ui Fakalata which I wrote with contributions from Loisi Puleiku Simione Haleli Sepa Hausia-Schaumkel Loseti Mahe Maria Fariu and Leota Tahaafe and the members of the Tongan collective at the Auckland Pacific Island Network who wrote this and gifted it Mo'ui Fakalata to the system so that Pacific children are served better. I believe as what I've just stated I am sufficiently qualified to affirm that this legislation will enhance and add value to how the State serves our children and young people and their families. Without hesitation I commend the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and the Children and Young People's Commission Bill to the House. Malo 'aupito.
SpeechTERISA NGOBI (Labour—Ōtaki): Fakaalofa lahi atu Mr Speaker. As always it's a privilege and an honour to take a call in this House of change not only as the member of Parliament for the beautiful Ōtaki electorate but also as part of the Social Services and Community Committee who worked through this bill. But of course first I'd like to acknowledge again the submitters for being so raw and passionate giving up their stories and experiences which we know must have been really hard. I know I truly felt that and I'm quite sure everyone in the Social Services and Community Committee felt that as well.Changes from that select committee process after hearing the submitters also included—as the Minister spoke about before—a Chief Children's Commissioner who will also be the chair of the board of the commission. That is a change that this bill has made after listening to the submitters. Also ensuring the commission can report to the Prime Minister with or without request on matters affecting the rights of tamariki. That is another thing we heard from submitters—that the Minister and our Government have heard and have made that change. Requiring the monitor to act quickly and independently when undertaking functions and that is something else we've made sure that we've changed in this bill after listening to those submitters. Also of note because I know Te Tiriti has come up in this kōrero during the development of this bill there were 22 hui so engagement with Māori throughout Aotearoa and working closely with the Māori advisory group Te Kāhui on this bill to ensure a practical commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi—that's critical. One of the things that was clear from this hui is Māori asked us to ensure advocacy won't be diluted by the monitoring function and they worried about the conflict between the advocacy and the monitoring—that was clear. That was their words not mine.We heard these concerns and therefore this bill separates these two functions to ensure advocacy is strengthened and not constrained by monitoring requirements. We've heard the calls to pause this bill to wait for the outcome of the royal commission into State care. We can't wait any longer. It's not about putting on plasters and trying to plug gaps; this is about being brave and making sure—we all know this system doesn't work. And to keep making sure that we put more plasters on a system that does not work is irresponsible. We came in here with a clear goal to save our babies and that is what this bill does. We are very very clear: we can't keep putting plasters on this. The whole of Oranga Tamariki needs an overhaul. We've been brave enough to do that. We care about our babies. There is a review built into this bill so that when the royal commission outcome does come out we can look at reviewing it then. But right now we can't have one more kid—we can't have one more baby—being harmed. We need to do something now. The longer you wait the more our children suffer. That's what this side of the House wants to do. That's what we've done. We've listened to those submitters we're making real change and like I said: not one more baby.
SpeechOVERSIGHT OF ORANGA TAMARIKI SYSTEM BILLCHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE'S COMMISSION BILLDischarge—Leave DeclinedJAN LOGIE (Musterer—Green): Point of order Madam Speaker. I move That the orders of the day for the third readings of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill and Children and Young People's Commission Bill be discharged and the bills referred to the Social Services and Community Committee for consideration.
SpeechHouse resumed.CHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie): Madam Speaker the committee has considered the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. I move That the report be adopted.Motion agreed to.Report adopted.
Estimates Debate — Revenue
Webb DuncanDr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip—Labour): I move That the committee report progress.Motion agreed to.
Swarbrick Chlöe; Parker DavidCHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): Just on exactly that research that the Minister's alluding to we have an Official Information Act (OIA) of Treasury advice from early 2021 which points to 42 percent of high-wealth individuals paying less than 10 percent of their total income in tax. Can I ask the Minister if his research is showing that the picture is better or worse than that initial research? Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): I don't yet know the answer to that question. I'm in the dark as others are. I have my suspicions that the rate of tax paid by the highest-income people in New Zealand is lower than the middle class but this data-gathering issue should prove it one way or the other.
Seymour David; Parker DavidDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): What is $540 million per annum as a percentage of Government spending last year?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Less than 1 percent.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Can the Minister confirm it's less than 0.5 percent of what the Government spent last year?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Not off the top of my head. But if the member's done the calculation I'm happy to accept it.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): I did it off the top of my head and he probably should. I ask the Minister—[Interruption] I know Anna Lorck is astonished because they're not so proud of her mental arithmetic there in Tukituki.I just want to ask the Minister about the high-wealth individual project. Of the 400 people that were identified for this—frankly—inquisition how many have completed the first second and third rounds of information requested from them and is he satisfied with that rate of progress?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Thank you for that question. Yeah I'm pleased to report that the vast majority of high-wealth individuals that are within the ambit of that statistical gathering exercise are cooperating—as they must obviously in order to comply with the law. But they're doing so willingly and compliance rates are in excess of 90 percent.In respect of the question from Chlöe Swarbrick on the date of release of that GST methodology paper I'll look into that and try and make sure I make the end-of-August date that I promised. I'm not over the detail of that as we speak.
Swarbrick Chlöe; Parker DavidCHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green—Auckland Central): In defence of the Minister from the heckling just before even the National Party's own voters aren't in support of their tax cuts for the wealthiest.So just referring to this Estimates Hansard that I have in front of me—this is a bit of a niche question for the Minister but I'm hoping that he can provide a response—on page 4 of the Hansard document it is me asking him a question about the research and the pre-hearing questions that he had provided to the Finance and Expenditure Committee with regard to research on GST and effective overall GST rates being paid. He had indicated in those pre-hearing questions that he was planning to release the methodology in the interim prior to September. Minister we are a week out from September and we still don't have that publicly released information. So I'm wondering if you could please shed some light on that.Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Just before I do that I now have the information that the leader of the ACT Party requested on the—David Seymour: What took so long?Hon DAVID PARKER: Well I wanted to get the accurate figure for him because I'm so known for my accuracy. I didn't want to spoil my reputation in the House nor sully that member with second-rate information. The revenue increase from the new 39c rate is $540 million per annum.
Seymour David; Parker DavidDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Well thank you very much Mr Chair. My question is very simple. Does the Minister accept that removing mortgage interest deductibility from landlords will increase their tax bill and in a tight rental market that extra tax cost will at least in part be passed on to tenants?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Thank you to the member for that question. The link between effective interest rates and rents is by no means an arithmetic one as evidenced by the fact that when interest rates in recent years declined markedly as world interest rates declined rents didn't drop.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Is the Minister saying he doesn't believe that increasing the taxes on landlords will increase tenants' rents?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): I'm saying that the idea that the member promotes that there is a direct relationship between the two is not made out.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): Can he tell tenants that they will not see their rents increase because their landlords are now paying more tax due to the loss of mortgage interest deductibility?Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue): Well there's no universal truths that run throughout the country in the same place at the same rate and in all places. But the answer to control of rents is the supply of new dwellings. New-dwelling builds in Auckland are of course double what they were when we took Government. As a consequence of the increases in supply—I might be out by a fraction of 1 percent—I think rent increases in the last year for which we have data in Auckland were two-point-something percent—I forget the point whatever it is—which proves in my view that rents are more often related to the marginal cost of new supply and the marginal cost of new supply is of course generally in new builds and the effective cost of those new builds is not going up because they still have interest deductibility.
SpeechRevenueCHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie): Members the time has come for us to relieve the Minister of Police of his seat and replace him with the Minister of Revenue.
Watts Simon; Hipkins ChrisSIMON O'CONNOR (National—Tāmaki): A very curt response. What is cash? Sorry—I'm only kidding. Look just to acknowledge the Minister's comment on fog cannons I've certainly seen in my own electorate that they have deployed well and have been really very effective. The Minister may be aware but last evening for the eighth time one of my liquor stores got ram-raided. The dairy beside it in Ōrākei has been hit four times. So I suppose this is as much a remonstration and a request as it escalates for him to follow up—as he has said yep there are fog cannons. But as more and more of these events occur of how obviously police but through his support that—yeah that other options are made available.SIMON WATTS (National—North Shore): Just building on that: obviously in my electorate of the North Shore the statistic that worries us—and this is what I'd be interested in the Minister's comments on—is that actually 60 percent of the people undertaking these ram-raid incidents are not identified. A lot of the narrative in the media has been around the 40 percent that have been identified—of which are young people—but the concern and the statistic that my communities are more worried about is the fact that six out of 10 of these incidents aren't being identified aren't being captured and aren't feeling the consequences of the law. When we're seeing brazen attacks on Michael Hill Jeweller on Hurstmere Road in Takapuna and we're seeing—as my colleague has mentioned—dairies continually being rammed not once not twice but three times this is a concern and I think it's a broader concern. I'm interested in the Minister's perspective around what we are doing about the people that aren't being captured. Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police): Thank you Mr Chair. I think that's a fair point and in terms of the identification I'd be wary of the statistics just on the sense that they are often a snapshot in time and the fact that an offender is not immediately identified doesn't mean that police stop investigating and stop trying to identify them. So there are a number of cases where they have photographic evidence of people but they haven't quite yet figured out who those people are but that doesn't mean that they have stopped looking for them. So I just would make that point.I certainly understand the point about repeat victimisation and the need to make sure that we're focusing additional support on those who have been the subject of several offences and in terms of the youth offending side of ram-raiding—which is a very dominant part of it at the moment—the conversations I've had with police at a local level is that while they might not be able to identify every one of the offenders they often know who the ringleaders are. So by targeting those people who are kind of commonly involved they can often start to break some of that down and disperse some of that activity. So that I know is a focus for the front-line police who I've been speaking to about that.
Estimates Debate — Police
Hipkins ChrisCHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie): Members the time has come for us to resume the debate. Before the dinner break we had the Minister of Police in the chair and we have five more minutes.SIMON O'CONNOR (National—Tāmaki): Actually Minister you won't have to reply to this one because I've only just written and sent a letter to you today but it's a relevant one because I've written multiple times before. It's around what are you doing or rather what is the Government doing to address or rather to provide support to the various business owners affected by all of these various ram raids and stuff? I've written—granted to your predecessor—and I've asked for more support particularly out of the proceeds of crime side of things. It said Oh well we'll have a fog cannon." which is a somewhat good start. But I was wondering quite openly is there a way that Government can provide more support from more secure doors roller doors bollards and so forth and I hope it's not putting some of our police that I engage with on the spot but they've been very clear that these would be very prudent measures. Anyway I'm not here to chew up your time unexpectedly but what more can be done to support our local businesses?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police): Thank you Mr Chair. I'm happy to provide a very brief response to that. The police are focused on making sure that they are providing additional support to small-business owners particularly those who have been repeatedly victimised by ram-raiders and so on. So that includes things like bollards and fog cannons. Fog cannons have proven to be very effective in small-business settings particularly in shops like dairies for example. I think that's given the shop owners a great deal of comfort. We're looking pretty closely how that's working and what more can be done. There is more funding available there to do more of that and so we'll continue to look at that.There was one question from Nicole McKee from before dinner that I didn't have the chance to answer and that was just around the Vincent Street incident where some firearms records—hard-copy firearms records—were stolen from a police station that was no longer in use. The member's question related specifically to what reassurances we can give about the new firearms register and safety and security of that information. The point that I would make to her is that the register will be a digital register rather than a hard-copy paper register and as a result there will be very rigorous testing to make sure that peoples' records are kept very securely. I'd liken it a little bit to the difference between having your money in the bank and having your money in a safe in the wall at home: you might feel that the safe at home is quite secure but actually the bank—even though it's accessible over the internet—is still probably going to be a more secure place to store your cash. With the firearms registry a similar principle might apply. A very secure locked cabinets is one way that you can store information but actually digitally online—as long as all the safeguards are there—is a very very secure way of storing information."
Mitchell Mark; Hipkins Chris; Rurawhe AdrianHon MARK MITCHELL (National—Whangaparāoa): Thank you Mr Chair. The Minister can't get up and have a bob each way. He can't say Under the last Government they closed kiosks and stations." and then stand up and say "Well you know that's an operational decision for the police." Either the Government is responsible for it—he seems to say that the previous Government was responsible for that—but now under his leadership he's saying "You know what? That's actually an operational decision; that's the police's decision."So on the record—because there are actually quite a few policemen and policewomen around the country that work and man these outstations that'll be watching to see. There are some plans afoot and the Minister would know that so it's very interesting that he actually won't stand in the House and say "Under the last National Government they closed stations. We wouldn't do that under Labour." but then he gets up and goes "But that's an operational decision for the police." Are they going to maintain their numbers are they going to be able to stay in their communities or is there going to be a reduction? It's a pretty simple question. If the Minister—as he seems to have told the committee that the Government has got control over that and the Government can have a say on where the stations are and how many people are in them then stand up and make a commitment.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police): I'll go through it slowly for the member: under the last Government the newspaper headlines were very clear that the police were cutting the number of kiosks and outstations that they were operating because they didn't have enough money to keep them going. That was an operational decision that the police made so it was a decision by the police and they made it because the last Government choked off their budget so that they didn't have enough money to do the job that the last Government were asking them to do. That hasn't happened under this Government. We've been continuing to increase the funding so that they don't have to make those kind of decisions.CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Members it has come time for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The committee will resume at 7 p.m.Sitting suspended from 5.56 p.m. to 7 p.m."
McKee Nicole; Hipkins ChrisNICOLE McKEE (ACT): Thank you Mr Chair. Minister I'm going to ask some questions about the Vincent Street loss of firearm owners' data that occurred back in May. I wonder whether or not you can assure firearm owners that their information under the new registration system that will be paid for out of this Budget will be secure and that no breaches will occur of their personal data to third parties either in digital or in print formats and whether there is a portion of money within that Budget put aside to help some of the victims of that data breach with security? Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police): Thank you Mr Chair. In terms of the organised crime unit that Mark Mitchell raised: yes the member is correct that we're about halfway there to the target of additional organised crime staff. One of the things that he'll be aware of is that you don't typically recruit people directly into those organised crime roles; you're actually taking them off other front-line roles and it's important that we make sure that we're training enough police to backfill those roles. Of course all of this would have been much easier if the last Government hadn't neglected the police so much. We have a lot of catching up to do. I do find it somewhat ironic the member's coming to the House on a regular basis tub-thumping and effectively saying why is it taking so long to clean up all of the mess that they left behind when they didn't invest and support the New Zealand Police to the extent that they should do.In terms of the national retail investigation support unit that the member has asked about of course it is not the only part of the police that's working on retail investigation. Of course it is part of the day-to-day work of the front line but in terms of that specific unit I can confirm that they have identified 43 offenders and arrested them and have charged them with 307 different charges. As I indicated though that is just the work of that unit and there is a lot else happening across the police's front line to deal with those particular issues.In terms of the traffic situation that the member has raised that is something that I don't have the information to hand on and it is something that I will look at.NICOLE McKEE (ACT): Just a short question for you Minister: will there be any incentive to return police training to 26 weeks instead of the reduced 16 weeks and why was it reduced? Was it to make up the 1800 numbers quickly or is it for some other reason why it was reduced from 26 to 16 weeks?Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police): That was a decision obviously made before I became the Minister of Police so it's not something that I can give the member an instant answer to but I'm happy to look further at that. Obviously we are very focused on getting as many police on to the beat as quickly as we can.