O'Connor Greg; Brown Simeon; Genter Julie Anne; Parker DavidESTIMATES DEBATEIn CommitteeDebate resumed on the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill.CHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Good evening members. When we suspended we were debating the Appropriation (2023/24 Estimates) Bill. There are 28 minutes remaining in the debate. New Zealand Labour has 10 minutes remaining New Zealand National has seven minutes remaining ACT New Zealand has eight minutes remaining the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 11 minutes remaining Te Paati Māori has four minutes remaining Dr Elizabeth Kerekere has six minutes remaining the Hon Meka Whaitiri has six minutes remaining.Members we now have the Minister of Transport. The Minister is available from 7.30 until the end of the time allocated for the debate.TransportSHANAN HALBERT (Chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee): Thank you Mr Chair. It's my privilege to chair the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and work collegially with our colleagues from across the House throughout this Estimates process. Can I also acknowledge the Minister of Transport the Hon David Parker who stepped into the role as Minister just days prior to coming before our committee.Vote Transport comprises funding for infrastructure investment services and regulatory activities related to transport in Aotearoa New Zealand. In 2023/24 the total sought for Vote Transport is $10.115 billion. The largest element of the vote is funding for the National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) through the National Land Transport Fund. In 2023/24 $3 billion is appropriated for the NLTP and this funding is drawn from the land transport revenue and is detailed in the appropriations National Land Transport Programme PLA" and "National Land Transport Programme Additional Crown Funding (2021-24)". The five largest activity classes under this are the State highway improvements approximately $1 billion; public transport services and infrastructure $778 million; State highway maintenance $496 million; local road maintenance $425 million; and Road to Zero safety infrastructure $182 million.The focus for Estimates this year as I understand it as presented to our select committee is to tackle congestion and reduce emissions and I appreciate the contribution that the Minister has made throughout this process.SIMEON BROWN (National—Pakuranga): Thank you Mr Chair for the opportunity to take a short call on these Estimates. One of the questions I've got for the Minister of course is relating to this Government's so-called transformational transport programme which in particular relates to Let's Get Wellington Moving and Auckland light rail. Of course this Government was elected in 2017 and said that Auckland light rail would be built to Mount Roskill by 2021. I frequently go down Dominion Road but I'm yet to see any evidence of that. But the question I've got in relation to the Estimates is: what is going to be achieved for Auckland light rail and Let's Get Wellington moving during the Estimates period the 2023/24 Estimates for Vote Transport? What is planned to happen for those two projects during the Estimates period?This Government talks a big game when it comes to transport. They cancelled the roads of national significance to build light rail in Auckland and Wellington but we're yet to see any delivery. Well there has been delivery in Wellington; they built the pedestrian crossing. Who knew that a pedestrian crossing could cost $2.5 million and that you need half a million dollars for consultants for a pedestrian crossing? Clearly no one at the New Zealand Transport Agency remembers how to build a pedestrian crossing.So I look forward to the Minister answering to the House what will be delivered for Let's Get Wellington Moving and Auckland light rail during the 2023/24 Estimates period.Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green): Tēnā koe Mr Chair. I found that contribution from the previous member Simeon Brown quite interesting because when I worked as a transport consultant in 2008 a common cost at the time known to all engineers was that the cost of upgrading to a signalised intersection was $4 million. So in 2023—Simeon Brown: That's not even an intersection. It's a pedestrian crossing. Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: It's actually signalised—it has signals Mr Brown. I'm not sure if you've seen it but it does have signals. It is a signalised intersection. Anyway I think that this debate shows the pathetic-ness of the state of the transport debate in New Zealand. It's absolutely outrageous that in 2023 the National Party the ACT Party and the Labour Party are competing to see who can spend more money on new motorways that have incredibly high carbon emissions just in building them. But the worst part is they won't even address the very problem that they're supposed to solve and by now in 2023 we have enough evidence—we literally have 70 years of evidence—that urban motorways do not reduce congestion and that relying on high car ownership poses an enormous fiscal cost and burden on households. This is related to the Estimates Mr Chair because Simeon Brown from the Opposition party recently said that he thought the countries with the best roads in the world were Hong Kong Singapore the Netherlands Sweden and Switzerland. Those are all countries that have lower cars per capita than New Zealand—significantly lower in many cases—and have lower vehicle kilometres travelled per capita. So I want to know Minister in the decisions that were made around the Estimates and in recent announcements by the Labour Government if the goal of reducing vehicle kilometres travelled was taken into account in any way in the analysis of the proposals around the second harbour crossing. If the Minister could tell us that it would be very useful. But I do feel that I have to elucidate for the other parties in this House—particularly on this side of the Chamber—that as a planning tool reducing vehicle kilometres travelled makes absolute economic sense because people have not chosen to have to use a car for all of their journeys. This was a result of decisions made by central government and local government that have used up enormous valuable amounts of our urban lands in car-parking and that have unintentionally subsidised single-occupant vehicle trips and led to enormous costs on ordinary New Zealand households who have to spend $8000 a year at least owning a car—CHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Ms Genter could you just relate this to the appropriations please. Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: It's related to the debate which is that I want to understand if the Minister and Waka Kotahi are undertaking actual analysis of the impact on carbon emissions and the vehicle kilometres travelled of the proposals particularly around the preferred option for the additional Waitematā Harbour crossing. Hon MEKA WHAITIRI (Ikaroa-Rāwhiti): Mr Chair thank you very much. I'd love to take a call in this Estimates debate on transport. Mr Chair and the Minister in the chair as you know you've travelled State Highway 35. You've travelled State Highway 35 I know several times. That particular road is part of the roading network and I want to acknowledge the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee who gave the bare minimum of introduction of the Estimates but he did mention the $1 billion around State highway improvements. I just want to focus on State Highway 35 because it's a stretch of road that is the only access way to the communities that live up the Coast. The Minister himself has been told directly as have other Ministers in this Government about the challenges of the people that live in that part of Aotearoa New Zealand. So the questions I have to the Minister really go to his Estimates and the flexibility of those policies to adapt to the changing environments. My first question is: how flexible is the New Zealand Transport Agency in being able to adapt to the changing climate and by that I mean on a scale could the Minister indicate whether it's very flexible or very inflexible? That's question No. 1. Question No. 2: where in the Estimates does it best reflect this level of flexibility? So I am again trying to lead to the point of our having a transport policy that is fit for purpose with our changing climate particularly for State Highway 35. My third question is: in real terms where do communities like those that live off State Highway 35 get assurances that access to their homelands is not put at risk due to this level of flexibility or inflexibility? My fourth question to the Minister is: what overall plan has his Government got on improving the livelihood of those on State Highway 35 now and for the future? Hon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Transport): For the benefit of listeners we're all subject to time limits in this debate and so I will try to briefly reply to the questions that have been put to me by various speakers. In respect of the question by Simeon Brown on Let's Get Wellington Moving both the Prime Minister and I have said that we're dissatisfied with the pace at which that is progressing as have the mayor and the chair of the regional council. They have both written to me recently saying that they think the Government should take more responsibility for the parts of the project particularly that are on State Highway 1 leading from the Arras Tunnel towards the Mt Victoria Tunnel and for the improvements needed or the additional tunnel needed through Mt Victoria which is not to deny the importance of the other parts of Let's Get Wellington Moving particularly the rapid transit issues that are important to Julie Anne Genter and others and to the Labour Party. In respect of Julie Anne Genter's question about—Simeon Brown: What about Auckland light rail? Hon DAVID PARKER: Oh Auckland light rail. No decisions will be taken on that before the election. We are seeking—Simeon Brown: Nothing? Hon DAVID PARKER: Well there's a lot of work being done but no final decisions will be taken as to whether it's over ground or underground. In respect of Julie Anne Genter's questions in respect of Waitematā crossings any option that proceeds will have increased public transport capability in every stage. There will be no stage that doesn't increase public transport connectivity across the Waitematā including for public transport but also for active forms of transport—cycling and pedestrian access—across the bridge. In respect of her questions about vehicle kilometres travelled I accept the member's capability in these issues and I would though observe that quite a bit of the Government expenditure on roads at the moment is necessitated by storm damage particularly in provincial and rural areas where people actually don't generally have public transport options and they are reliant on the roading network. But particularly in our cities—yes—you can't build your way out of traffic congestion through more motorways; you actually have to support rapid transit. In respect of the issues that Meka Whaitiri raised in respect of State Highway 35 State Highway 35 is in a parlous position made worse by Cyclone Gabrielle and the earlier cyclone and storm events last year—repeated storm events. A total of about $1 billion has already been allocated by the Government to the restoration of roads and the highest spend of that per capita would be in the Tairāwhiti region because of their great need in that region. So Waka Kotahi are working very hard on re-establishing bridges and roads throughout those storm-affected areas."