Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:620;Page:15952] 
4.  
LARRY BALDOCK (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: What efforts has he made to ensure that the public understands tolling and its place in the land transport regime and has he received any recent reports that suggest that those efforts have been less than successful? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 The Land Transport Management Act allows for the tolling of new roads. I have seen a report from Peter Brown MP stating that Government expenditure on roads has fallen and that the Penlink road has been declared non-toll. Both claims suggest that the Government has some way to go with public understanding on these issues. 
Larry Baldock 
: Will the Penlink be tolled or has that been ruled out; and is the Minister aware of any other portion of State highway that is a potential candidate for tolling? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I am advised that the Rodney District Council has told Transfund that it is interested in pursuing Penlink as a toll road in conjunction with Transit and the House will be aware that a proposal to toll the Albany-Puhoi link is being progressed towards a decision. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Has the Minister done anything to acquaint himself with the plethora of comments from his Labour Party colleagues in the 1990s concerning the evils of tolling our roads; and if so how does he intend to handle the embarrassment when the first toll road comes on stream in New Zealand under a Labour Government? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The Labour Government that the member just spoke of has passed legislation since the 1990s called the Land Transport Management Act in which it states that a toll will proceed if it has a high level of support from the community. That is the difference. 
Peter Brown 
: Will the Minister ensure that no toll gantries or booths are built until after the next election when the “ever-vigilant after the event never compromising never lying down” party will have all but disappeared and New Zealand First will have a significant presence in Government—otherwise we will have to spend taxpayers’ money dismantling them? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: In so far as the question relates to the Minister’s direct ministerial responsibility he may comment. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Regrettably the member’s question has come too late. There are already gantries in place for collecting tolls in Tauranga where the member lives. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister comment on the assertion in Peter Brown’s article that road spending has fallen as a percentage of GDP? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: By next year expenditure on roading— 
Opposition Members 
: Ha ha! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is precisely the point that was raised earlier by another member on the other side of the House and he himself was one of the worst contributors at this point. I heard him from afar. I am prepared to allow comments to be made and I have no objection to them but at least give the Minister a bit of a chance to say a few words. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think the point that Mr Hide made is when Ministers give answers in the way they are doing generally those answers are well scripted and indeed the response to them is pretty well rehearsed under the Labour whips. What you just saw from us on this side of the House was a spontaneous reaction to a Minister who clearly is not in control of his portfolio. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well once again that is not a point of order. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: By next year expenditure on New Zealand roading will be $400 million per annum greater than it was at the time we came to office. Notwithstanding the stunning economic growth under this Government one would need to be drawing a very long bow to assert that this was a decrease in GDP. It is not. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: So Peter Brown was right when he wrote that statement in the article; and why should any New Zealand motorist contemplate any tolls when for every $2 that he as Minister collects for the purpose of road construction maintenance and repair less than $1 is going for that purpose? Just because the “poodle party” supports it is no reason that the rest of us should. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The answer to the first question is no Peter Brown is not correct. In respect of the second I simply say that every cent of every increase in tax on petrol under this Government has gone to roading. What is more the proportion of petrol tax being shifted on to roading under this Government is higher than it has ever been. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I just say to the Minister that I thought the answer he gave was a little long. However if he wants to extend question time that is his business. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The claim just made by the Minister is known by every member of Parliament to be absurdly untrue. Every cent collected in respect of that tax is not spent on roading. Every Minister of Finance or Treasurer knows that and every member of Parliament knows it. Such an answer cannot be to the point or exact in any way. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that is not a point of order. 
Larry Baldock 
: Has the Minister received any reports on land transport funding in the Bay of Plenty and in particular would the amount of petrol excise duty collected in Tauranga be enough to fund the $600 million of road expenditure needed there in the next 10 years? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Expenditure in the Bay of Plenty this year is about $68 million. On passage of legislation to raise the excise duty by a further 5c an additional $134 million will go to Tauranga—it was never more—and even with projected increases over the next 10 years we will not get there by petrol tax alone. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why would it be that the road leading to this country’s biggest port and the Tauranga Harbour Bridge have to be financed by tolls when it is an essential national highway for the economy of this country? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Leaving aside the fact that it was under his Government and leaving aside the fact that it is not a State highway—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I know what the member is going to say. I do not want “leaving asides”; I just want an answer to the question. Please answer the question. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I cannot remember the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I just want to throw in that it was under a Labour member of Parliament and Minister of Transport that the Tauranga bridge was first built if the Minister does not recall it. It was the 1984-90 Lange Labour Government. More important why would a bridge leading to this country’s biggest port not be designated part of a national highway and paid for out of the general taxation collected for that purpose rather than by tolls? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: If it were to be designated a State highway which it is not that would not mean it would not be tolled. 
Larry Baldock 
: Are articles like the one written by Peter Brown in the Tauranga newspaper that contain errors regarding the Penlink road helpful when it comes to ensuring that the public understand tolling and its place in the land transport regime? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: No. 
Larry Baldock 
: I seek leave to table the article written by Peter Brown MP in the local Tauranga newspaper. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why is this country not ensuring that it has the funds to attend to the huge infrastructural deficit this country has in roading and other matters now when the amount to pay any borrowings on it can be assured for the next 10 to 20 years because it amounts to far more than is required rather than it being taken off to the consolidated account—which it is—and being spent on any other “loony tune” project? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: If the member cares so much about funding for roading he has an opportunity soon to send legislation to a select committee; we will see what he does. However if the member is of the view that we should borrow and have no way of servicing that borrowing which is what Peter Brown’s article suggests then I suggest that we have a re-emergence in this country of Social Credit. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I seek leave to table a graph from the Allen Consulting Group report made public 2 months ago which shows that spending on roading as a percentage of GDP has dropped every year under the Labour Government. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I seek leave to table a graph that seeks to dispute very much the graph that has just been tabled by the Hon Maurice Williamson. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that graph. Is there any objection? 
Hon Members 
: Where’s it from? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I ask the member where it is from. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: It was drawn from Government sources of course. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There is no point of order. If there is any objection that is the end of the matter. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: I am seeking clarification before I object because he has not told us what the graph is. If it is a graph of expenditure as a percentage of GDP I would be happy for him to tell members that it is different. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: It’s upside down. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Oh that is OK—it is upside down. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the Minister has indicated that he has answered “Yes” to the member’s questions. Is there any objection to it being tabled? There is.