11. Question No. 11—Tertiary Education and SkillsHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and SkillsQuestion No. 11—Tertiary Education and Skills11. Hon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: Does she stand by all her answers to oral question No. 10 on 30 July 2024 and oral question No. 5 on 8 May 2024; if not why not?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills): In answer to the first and second parts of the member's question the answers are yes and yes.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Does she stand by her statement to the House that she doesn't recall being advised by Te Pūkenga that her directive to cease restructuring would result in additional costs of $53 million in 2024?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Yes I do but I did look back as I gave an undertaking to and I can confirm that on 8 December 2023 I received advice from the Tertiary Education Commission (TEC)—which is a different entity to Te Pūkenga—which noted that certain financial risk may result in Te Pūkenga achieving a worse deficit than the $93 million forecast for 2024. However I'm pleased to advise the Speaker that my letter of expectation on 5 December 2023 and clarification on 20 May 2024 reinforcing the need to progress financial sustainability initiatives has ensured that the deficit to date is tracking considerably better than the deficit forecast not worse.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Is the Minister asserting that the letter that was sent to her on 8 December 2023 by Te Pūkenga does not include an amount of $53 million that she has directly cost them and the taxpayer?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: The briefing that I was referring to was from TEC but I am happy to go back and have a look if there is another letter. I certainly found a briefing from the Tertiary Education Commission asserting that there may be risks that would make the deficit worse but as I advised the work that has been done by this Government has made the deficit considerably better than that forecast.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Does she stand by her statement to the House on 8 May 2024 that I did not direct Te Pūkenga to take actions. I cannot direct Te Pūkenga to take actions."?Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: Yes I do. I cannot and did not direct Te Pūkenga to take action. I can however express my views and inform them of the Government's policies and in my letter of expectation on 5 December 2023 and clarification on 20 May 2024 I advised them of those expectations.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: How is this consistent with the letter from Te Pūkenga to her on 8 December 2023 that said: "In addition the direct instructions issued by you to him on operational matters caused him and me significant concern."? Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I will go back and have a look at the letter but I am advising that my briefing that I got from the tertiary education advised of some risk of deteriorating financial situation. It is a matter of fact that that has not occurred and that the actions that this Government has taken have improved the financial situation of Te Pūkenga considerably. These actions should have been taken four years ago; they are happening now. Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Is she aware that giving direct instructions to the chair and the chief executive of a Crown entity is a breach of the Crown Entities Act and the Cabinet Manual? Hon PENNY SIMMONDS: I am aware. I cannot and I did not direct Te Pūkenga to take action. I can however express my views and inform them of Government policies and what a good thing I did because it has saved the country millions of dollars. Hon Dr Deborah Russell: When is she going to ask the Prime Minister the $53 million question—to put her out of her misery and fire her? SPEAKER: Question—we're moving to—[Interruption] We'll wait for quiet. Question No. 12 Dan Bidois."