Webb DuncanHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you. Yes a very brief contribution. Short—not to the point.Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Such a lack of respect for the House.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB: It really is disrespectful. What's happened to this bill is actually indicative of the difference between this side of the House and our approach to corrections and the justice system and that side of the House because it was I believe an ex-National MP who said that prisons are a moral and fiscal failure. And I would absolutely recommend to every MP to go and visit a prison as you're entitled to do under the Corrections Act and to fully exercise that right because it's not a right to be shown around a prison; it's a right to go yourself and choose what to see. So go and choose what to see in a prison. Go to the most confronting parts of those prisons—the high security wards the cells where they're being double-bunked. Go and see what those prisoners have for lunch because it's grim.One of the real challenges is that prisons as they're currently framed are dehumanising. They disassociate people from their family and from where they come from and that's a challenge. We've seen in recent days and weeks as we've examined the Estimates and talked to officials in the Justice Committee how much our prisons struggle. And this bill is adding to it. We've seen the corrections officials and Minister admit that they can't meet their minimum obligations—minimum legal obligations—in respect of prisoners.The last Government introduced a bill which struck a balance between the unfortunate necessities that accompany incarceration—the need to have information the need to monitor communications the need to exercise physical restraint and so on—but at the same time on this side of the House we are committed to a corrections system that does what it says. That is building a corrections system over time which sees people better when they leave than when they went in. And we acknowledge that right now that doesn't exist. It's only in a few instances that we can achieve that. But we were making progress. And Hōkai Rangi—the Te Ara Poutama strategy; the corrections strategy—outlined that. It outlined the commitments to achieve a corrections framework that gave mana to the inmates and worked particularly in reducing the recidivism rates of Māori by providing tools to them to be better people when they leave than when they went in.I've heard today and I won't repeat the statistics of the significant overrepresentation of Māori in our corrections system. The Treaty of Waitangi clause in this bill was part of that. It was recognising that since the Treaty was signed the Crown and the Government have failed. And one of the symptoms of that failure is the overrepresentation of Māori in the corrections system. And we don't buy in to the narrative that treating everyone the same is addressing that failure because the wrongs weren't treating everyone the same so putting them right isn't going to be achieved by treating everyone the same.It's not like it was particularly onerous to simply recognise that there are cultural differences and an obligation to lift people up where historically they've been trodden down. And the suggestion by the Minister and the Government that Don't worry they'll do it anyway." just doesn't hold water because the conduct and behaviour from the chief executive to the prison officers to the people who are in the kitchens is directed by the Minister and the Government. And this Minister and this Government is making it very clear that they don't care about Māori overrepresentation in the justice system.Hon David Seymour: Oh my God!Hon Member: Rubbish.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Well some people can moan but then they can also point out that a hundred million dollars has been taken out of the Corrections budget. So $3.5 million of that is out of the high impact programme—the very programme that was designed to identify people and programmes whose lives could be transformed by modest changes. And you can have statements like "We're just saving $43 million by changing back-office expenditure." But you know what that back-office expenditure is? It's exactly the kinds of things that would make the Department of Corrections' conduct not only compliant with Treaty obligations which is kind of lofty and intellectual but at the end of the day recognising each inmate individually and returning them to the community in a better space than they were and more equipped to be effective citizens than they were.That Government is building prisons. Building prisons is to justice what building cemeteries is to health—it's a sign of giving up. On this side of the House we won't give up. We will use all of the tools. Yes there's some good things here. The idea that remand prisoners should have access to programmes which aren't offence-based but can address some of the issues which they face which might be addiction issues or they might be education issues—yes that's good. But the idea that access to cultural programme is wrong—because that's been deleted from the legislation as well. The idea that the corrections system should be an appropriate cultural fit—I mean what is so alarming and frightening with that? In the way it's framed in the proposed legislation it's not even Māori-specific. Certainly Māori have a particular claim to have the services delivered in a way which is appropriate to their cultural background and to be culturally connected where appropriate with their whānau and with their iwis. And cultural programmes which do that have been shown to be more effective.Now these trials and programmes are still out there but in the face of this kind of ministerial leadership in the face of these kinds of budget cuts it's extremely difficult to hear on the other side of the House them say "Don't worry. Corrections is still committed to adhering to the Treaty of Waitangi." because it just lies fallow in their mouths.So I go back to my original challenge which is to go to the prisons. Go and don't just visit but look. Because when you look there and ask yourself "What is the purpose of our corrections system?" the purpose at the moment from the other side is simply to incarcerate not to improve. So I hope that on that side of the House they'll change their approach change their philosophy and start improving people's lives rather than just hiding them away."