Mallard Trevor: New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill — In Committee 
Mallard Trevor: New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:673;Page:19627] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I am speaking as someone who as some members—at least Sir Roger and one or two others—will remember has had more than a passing acquaintance with the SIS and its legislation over a period of years. I would like to focus on clause 5A “New section 4AAA inserted” which goes to the discharge of the operational functions of the SIS and to the integrity and professionalism of that organisation. I say that as someone who I am sure as with Keith Locke who spoke before me has managed to fail one of its vettings. I knew I had failed the vetting because after I had failed it when I was working as a window cleaner when I was a student I was accompanied while I was in the old Ministry of Defence building.  
Part of my responsibility was to clean the windows of what was probably the predecessor of the GCSB the Government Communications Security Bureau which sat in there. Because of the fact that I had failed the vetting I was constantly accompanied by a pistol-wearing guard to make sure I did not look at the papers and to make sure I looked at the window and not at the desks which were cleared for the period I cleaned the windows inside and out.  
I should say that the most interesting part was that the most locked-up room the most secure room had a number of books in it. This was during the Viet Nam War. One could tell what the organisation was working on from the books. They were about the economic aspects of the war against Viet Nam. Lipsky was the author of the Economics 101 textbook at that stage. It was the biggest book on the bookshelf of the most secret room within the Ministry of Defence at the time. The idea that it had to lock that book away when it was readily available to everyone who was doing Economics 101 at the university was an indication to me that maybe at the time the professionalism of the organisations that were involved in security matters was not quite at its peak.  
Then as I was often reminded during the first 6 or 7 years of my parliamentary career by the Rt Hon Sir Robert Muldoon at one stage I—[ 
Interruption 
] I thank Steve Chadwick for reminding me of the exact words he used to use. He described me as a long-haired activist when I was protesting against the lack of integrity and professionalism of the SIS. In fact I was arrested in the Chamber of the House and appeared in court and in the Supreme Court. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: History lessons are all very well and we learn a lot from them but 3 minutes have gone and I would like to hear how that relates to Part 1. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The point I was getting to is that at the time I had very serious doubts about the integrity and professionalism of the New Zealand SIS I think it is fair to say under the guidance of Brigadier Gilbert who was the director at the time. There appeared to be a requirement to have a white South African accent in order to be employed. The SIS agents were fairly easy to identify— 
Hon David Parker 
: And a moustache. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: And a moustache and sometimes a funny little forelock thing. The agents were relatively easy to identify because of the lack of integrity and certainly the lack of professionalism in their selection at the time. As a result of that there were widespread protests against the 1977 legislation.  
Since that time I have had the ability to observe matters to do with the SIS—not in any detail whatsoever apart from a relatively short time when I sat for a year or so on the Cabinet committee that dealt with international economic and foreign affairs and security matters. At that stage I became aware of some matters around the edge. I know that the biggest check on the integrity professionalism and discharge of the functions is the Minister who is responsible for the SIS. I often sat outside the offices of the Rt Hon David Lange Sir Geoffrey Palmer and subsequently Helen Clark originally as a whip and then as a Minister when there were unscheduled meetings with the director of the SIS. I presume that because the meetings were unscheduled they were to do with a matter of immediate security. Often it would have been a matter of warrants.  
The assurance I can give the Committee is that those meetings were never short. I know that because I waited outside. It is fair to say that the directors of the SIS—there were three of them over the years I think—whom I saw come out of those meetings did not always look particularly comfortable. I think it is fair to say that the interrogation by those Prime Ministers of those directors about their duties was intensive and that they used to go right down into detail. It is my understanding that David Lange—I do not know this of any of the others—used to go down to the SIS building and examine the files himself to make sure he was getting the appropriate story.  
I think there is a weakness in the legislation but I am not sure what the solution is. The weakness in it is that it requires a Prime Minister who is prepared to read and to cross-examine. 
Grant Robertson 
: Well that rules out the current one. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: There could well be a problem but I think that when we are having a discussion in principle it is important to identify that. Despite my history of failing vettings and of being arrested I know that we have to have such an organisation. We know we must have such an organisation. It cannot— 
Chris Auchinvole 
: It’s a dilemma for you. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: No no it is not a dilemma at all. The SIS cannot operate in the open. It is clear that it cannot operate in the open. If a security intelligence service told everyone what it was doing there would be no point in having one.  
The idea that the SIS does not look at modern electronic communications is absurd. I would not hesitate to say that I am pretty sure it is looking at this stuff already. It might look at it and use it not for evidence but for building up a case to get a different sort of warrant. I think at least in collaboration with the police—if not independently—it is doing it now. I think it would be foolish if it was not doing it now. The idea that modern methods of communication cannot be intercepted and that modern tools cannot be used against people who at the extreme could be terrorists within New Zealand is just not acceptable. We have to have an organisation that has the tools.  
Part 1 of the bill deals with the changes to include electronic tracking for example. We know that the police have had the legal ability to do electronic tracking for some time. I do not know whether it is much less common or much less likely that the SIS uses it but the consequences of it not doing so could be much bigger than for the sorts of crimes the police are working on. Hopefully it never happens but in my opinion the SIS must have the powers to— 
Chris Auchinvole 
: What about the window cleaners? Are they still a risk? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: It is fair to say that  
Confessions of a Window Cleaner 
 was an interesting movie but I think we had probably better not go into the things that window cleaners have seen while they were window cleaning. It is fair to say that at the James Cook Hotel where I also worked there were some particularly interesting occurrences that one could see as one was window cleaning. Of course I shut my eyes immediately rather than carefully examine what was occurring during the daytime.  
Labour supports Part 1. It is a regret that it is necessary to have the SIS in this country but it is necessary. We cannot have it any other way for it to be effective.