Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:615;Page:11089] 
8.  
LARRY BALDOCK (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Fisheries 
: Does he agree that clearly articulated and strictly enforced fisheries regulations are crucial to the survival and sustainability of New Zealand’s fisheries resources; if not why not? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Fisheries) 
: 
 Yes. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister confirm that customary fishing rights under regulation 27 of the Fisheries (Amateur Fishing) Regulations 1986 which allows for seafood to be caught specifically for a hui or tangi are subject to the same size regulations as other amateur or recreational fishermen as specified in regulation 6; if so how does he explain the case shown on a recent episode of the TV show  
Coastwatch 
 where some customary fishermen despite being caught with a catch of 88 undersized crayfish seemed to escape prosecution? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Following the  
Coastwatch 
 programme last Monday many people—including many Maori—have expressed their concern to me or to my parliamentary colleagues. That particular case will not be able to happen again because last October the Government tightened the regulations so that customary fishers must carry their permits on them from when they go fishing until the fish is delivered to its destination. 
Janet Mackey 
: When were the Maori customary fishing regulations negotiated and when were they promulgated? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The Maori customary fisheries legislation is Tory legislation through and through. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member could mention the National Party or previous Governments. I would prefer him to do that in his answer. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Very good Mr Speaker. The legislation which does allow for kaitiaki to issue a permit to take undersized fish is the result of National Party regulations that were negotiated from 1993. 
John Carter 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is not the National Party. The National Party does not govern in this country. Certainly the National Government does and come the next election it will but it is not the National Party. The member must get his answers correct. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is now going a little too far. Everyone knows that the member was referring to the National Government. He meant the National Party in Government and should have said so. If we are going to call up for every single little comment like that we will never get anywhere. The Minister may continue briefly. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The National Government the National Cabinet in fact; there was a negotiation— 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: What year? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Between 1993 and when it concluded finally with promulgation in 1998. Those regulations did not go through this Parliament; they went through a National Cabinet. If anyone is distressed about the use of regulations in the Maori customary fisheries arena allowing the taking of undersized fish they know its origin. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As is often the case when it is windy outside it does affect what happens inside. There is no exception today. I just ask for a little more order. It is members’ day and members are in their own time but we will carry on. 
Phil Heatley 
: Given the Minister’s statement that Maori customary fishers are allowed to catch smaller fish than commercial and other recreational fishers and his parking of the blame with the National Party do the changes he passed last year when he was in Government fix this problem; or does he plan to bring in regulatory changes that will fix this problem now that he is the responsible Minister? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The member is probably not aware that these regulations are tied from beginning and end to a Treaty of Waitangi fisheries deal negotiated by a National Government as a full and final settlement in respect of Maori issues and fishing. This Government and I hope every future Government will uphold that full and final deal whatever they think of it. That is the issue. 
Pita Paraone 
: Given that effective fisheries law enforcement is imperative if the decimation of our fish resources is to be arrested what initiatives are in place to ensure that there are enough trained and sufficiently resourced staff to achieve that? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The quality and quantity of fisheries compliance in this country is rising and will continue to rise. I am not sure that we will ever reach the day when we all agree that it is enough. I am not sure that there is such a thing as enough effort any more than there is such a thing as enough police or enough nurses or enough teachers. But I will say this: when the National Government was negotiating it got some bits right. Customary fishers are required to have quite tight regulatory requirements on their permit—tighter than exist for recreational fishers. Although kaitiaki are allowed to issue a permit to take undersized fish—so the ministry advises me—they rarely allow that to happen. In other words although the National Government might have mucked it up Maori have not. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister’s answer was too long. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: I apologise for being deaf but most of my faculties are here unlike the Government’s. As the Minister has now given us a history will he now— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member made a silly comment at the start. He will now ask the question. Please ask the question. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: As the Minister has given us a history will he now move to assure New Zealanders that he will ensure that customary Maori take will be subject to the same conservation measures of size and number and that race will not be an excuse for the rape of our coastline and coastal waters? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The member has failed to acknowledge that this is part of a full and final treaty settlement reached between the National Government and representatives of New Zealand Maori so that part of the deal remains unalterable. Insofar as we can improve administration we have done so in respect of regulations passed last October so that the case we saw last Monday cannot happen again. The more important point is that a week ago the leader of the ACT party said he was putting questions to me. He has not yet done so and the reason is he has realised that his mates the National Party were the origin of this problem. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table press reports of 3 October 1992 and the relevant  
Hansard 
 which demonstrate that the only person who opposed the deal was the MP for Tauranga who was expelled from his caucus the next day. 
Documents not tabled. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister clarify for us that the part of the deal he is referring to which is enshrined in legislation relates to the rights to take customary fish for hui and tangi and not undersized fish and that that part of the problem can be fixed by current regulations? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Customary fishers are required to adhere to permit conditions that must include the dates on which fishing is to occur who will be taking the fish the quantity and size limit of each species to be caught the fishing method for each species the area where the fishing is to occur the purpose and venue for which the fish is needed and other matters as the kaitiaki sees fit. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the Minister agree with his colleague Dover Samuels when he told the  
New Zealand Herald  
on 12 February: “The protection and sustainable management of kai moana is at the very heart of tikanga and Maori custom but if we keep abusing and depleting our fisheries there will be nothing left for Maori to have customary rights over.”? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I warmly endorse those comments. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister confirm that current regulations require a national database of kaitiaki reports that would as the Minister has said earlier require data to be kept about the species being taken the quantity harvested and so on; and is that database currently being kept nationwide? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The negotiations led to customary fishing being implemented by more than one method. The first method called the section 27 method does not require those records to be kept; the second method a kaitiaki appointment under the customary regulations does require them. We are rolling out the second method year by year. 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I would like to point out that just prior to your calling me you obviously did call my name. Many in this House know that I am significantly deaf. Despite wonderful advances in the microphones it is extremely difficult to hear at the back if a lot of banter or whatever is going on. My retort was as a result of the Government members muttering some comment which thankfully I did not hear in the first place. I wish to draw to the attention of the House that I am extremely deaf. I note that a number of people have the same problem that I do but perhaps do not wish to announce it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Interjecting is something that always leads to problems. I think the member has made a valid point.