8. Health Services—National Health Targets RemovalHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) to the Minister of HealthHealth Services—National Health Targets Removal8. Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) to the Minister of Health: On which date and by what method did he advise Cabinet of his decision to dispense with the national health targets?Hon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Health): This matter did not need to go to Cabinet. The data is still being collected but we are no longer spending tens of thousands of dollars publishing it. We're developing new measures to ensure that health dollars are delivering improved health outcomes for New Zealanders. Those measures will be taken to Cabinet in due course.Michael Wood: Does he agree with the Prime Minister who said of child poverty reduction targets Our plan is to put an end to the debate over how we measure poverty by finally agreeing a set of robust measures but also requiring successive Governments to set targets against them."; and if so why are targets a good thing for child poverty reduction but not health improvement?Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: Where there are a broad range of measures reporting that demonstrates that public money is being well spent on services can drive improvement in health outcomes. Where there is a narrow range of targets that can incentivise movement away from where it would produce the best outcomes for New Zealanders. To use some of the examples in the targets of the former National Government we have targets for childhood obesity that measure the number of times someone is referred not if they're actually getting any better. Likewise for tobacco: if people are educated not if they are actually giving up smoking. I think the public can see that it makes sense to have a broad range of targets that actually achieve the outcomes that New Zealanders would expect not a narrow range of targets that drive perverse incentives in the system.Hon Simon Bridges: In light of his answer that the scrapping of the health targets did not need to go to Cabinet why did the Prime Minister say in this question time that they did go?Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That member should not be allowed to get away with predicating a question on a falsehood which he just did. Go and check the Hansard.Hon Simon Bridges: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked the Acting Prime Minister a very clear question about why this didn't go to Cabinet. He made clear it did.SPEAKER: I'm not prepared to referee this. I've had an assurance from the Prime Minister that he did not say that and on that basis the question is out of order.Hon Michael Woodhouse: In respect of—[Interruption]SPEAKER: Order! Both of you—please. [Interruption] I think the Prime Minister will stand withdraw and apologise.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I withdraw and apologise.Hon Michael Woodhouse: In respect of his reply to my supplementary question in referencing and criticising the vagueness of obesity targets is he aware that those very targets were introduced in 2007 by former health Minister the Hon Pete Hodgson?Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: This Government acts on evidence; I don't know what that Government did in its day—Hon Michael Woodhouse: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question was pretty direct.SPEAKER: No I don't need a point of order. I need an answer.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: There are a range of targets that were introduced over time. There are performance measures that have been improved over time. We support those ones that are improving the outcomes for New Zealanders not ones that are driving perverse incentives.SPEAKER: No; it's still not an answer. Answer the question please.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: I'm not sure whether that particular one was introduced by Mr Hodgson as the member's suggesting—SPEAKER: OK. Thank you.Hon Michael Woodhouse: Does he stand by his statement "when the overall statistics showed that the number of electives was going up yet in centres like Northland Auckland Counties Manukau Bay of Plenty and Waikato if Avastin injections and skin lesion removals were taken out of those pumped-up statistics the actual number of surgeries was dropping."; and if so will he release those statistics?Hon Dr DAVID CLARK: The statistics that I was referring to were ones that were given by the previous Government when I was in Opposition. They were reported in a news story on TV3 and used for that story and they showed that when Avastin injections and skin lesion removals were taken out in many areas of the country the statistics were going down. For example in 2016 across New Zealand ear nose and throat surgeries dropped paediatric surgeries dropped and general surgeries dropped—across New Zealand.Hon Michael Woodhouse: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I realise it had two legs but the question was "Will he release those statistics?" and he referred to them again in his answer.SPEAKER: I think I might be over-interpreting. I think what the Minister actually said is he doesn't need to because they're already in the public arena."