Shaw James: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeShaw James: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 21 July 2015. Volume:707;Page:5106. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]4.JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader—Green)to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement that “I’d bet my bottom dollar that there would be considerable debate and discussion in New Zealand about whether the flag should change”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister):Yes I do. I made that comment when the flag consideration project had received about 2300 different flag designs. I am delighted to inform the member that at the last count the panel had received 10291 flag designs. My bottom dollar is pretty safe I think.James Shaw: Does he accept that only 25 percent of New Zealanders want to change the flag whereas 87 percent of New Zealanders are concerned about climate change?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No I do not think you actually can make that prediction until we go through the referendum process. As the member knows there will be two referenda in relation to the flag change. I think we are ultimately going to have to wait until that final referendum takes place in early 2016 to see whether New Zealanders want to change the flag or not. I hope they do because I believe passionately that a new flag can be used as part of a way of showing how proud we are of our country and of how we unify a multicultural society.James Shaw: Given that climate change submissions outnumbered flag submissions by 15000 to 2300 does he think that changing the flag was the right priority for him to personally champion?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well I would say—and I have said this on numerous occasions—that the flag is just one of a great many issues as Prime Minister that I have a hand on. I have never argued that it is the most important one. In fact back in 2010 when that issue was raised significantly with me I made the point there that there were much bigger and more important issues to deal with at the time. But over time I think we can actually consider a whole range of different factors. When it comes to climate change the member is right. There were 17023 submissions received by the Government but actually most of those were stock standard ones. They were pro forma and they were prompted by the Green Party. In fact there were only 1485 submissions that were unique. If we go to the flag—something of interest because it was the member’s primary question—he may be interested to know that there were 146000 views of the New Zealand flag history video that 6000 people visited workshops and information stands and that there were more than 850000 online visits and about 2.7 million views of the flag gallery. I need to tell the member that every single night when I am in my office I am signing letters thanking the young people of New Zealand who are writing to me I have got to say in their hundreds—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Now I have heard enough.James Shaw: I thank the Prime Minister for his acknowledgment of how successful the Green Party was at galvanising public opinion.Mr SPEAKER: Order! Just ask the supplementary question.James Shaw: If he plans to listen to the public on changing the flag why did his Government not listen to the 99 percent of submitters who argued for a 2030 emissions reduction target of at least 40 percent below 1990 levels?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Because in the end of course we undertake consultation but consultation does not always mean agreement with a specific point of view. The target that we have come up with—minus 30 percent off a 2005 base—we believe is actually a balanced and fair target to take in. It is just one of the things that we do think is about right given the cost to our economy and the challenges that we have with half of our emissions coming from agriculture. The other point that we have made with the target is that we are quite happy to increase that target over time if we can get some of the scientific solutions we need for agriculture. I am actually very confident as I am sure the member himself will be that over the next 10 to 15 years there will be a significant breakthrough when it comes to agriculture.Andrew Little: In light of the increase in economic hardship especially in the regions does he now accept that there are better uses for $26 million of taxpayers’ money than a flag referendum that the public does not want?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well firstly we do not know what the final cost of the referendum process will be. I simply say that because Labour and the Greens actually pushed along a referendum on the mixed-ownership model after we had had a general election that we won with a landslide on this very topic. In the end the estimates were $9 million and the actual costs were $6.7 million. But here is the point: this is a major constitutional issue and this party believes in democracy in the same way that this party believes in a multicultural society and being fair and decent to people and not cooking things up. That is what the National—Mr SPEAKER: Order!James Shaw: Given his answer about costs to the New Zealand economy of strong action on climate change would he say that the majority of the 520 businesses surveyed by Waikato University were wrong to think that when it comes to climate change “There is a risk that weak Government inaction will still incur most of the costs without capturing the potential benefits.”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well I did not see the survey and I do not know the companies that have been asked the question. I do not think that that is actually right though because if we look at the emissions trading scheme that in fact actually sheets ultimately the costs home to businesses that need to change their practices—but ultimately those businesses will pass those costs on to consumers—or they go directly to consumers. The issue we have got here is that we get about 80 percent of our energy from renewable sources. We have about half of our emissions coming from agriculture and the Treasury advice to the Government as I recall it was that the cost of our making the sorts of reductions that say for instance the European Union promised are much much higher in this country. I think we have just got to get that balance about fair and I think we have. This is just one of the varied tools that we are using around climate change. There will be others over time. I accept actually that it is an important issue. The Government is taking it seriously.James Shaw: So if he does not believe that those businesses were correct or that the 99 percent of submitters were correct does he also believe that the 24 percent of National Party voters polled by UMR who think that New Zealand should take stronger action on climate change are also wrong?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I did not say that the member was wrong and that those businesses were wrong. I was quite clear when I said that I did not see the survey and I do not know the particular companies that it asked. Each will have a different perspective. But there are hundreds of thousands of companies I suspect in New Zealand; the 500 are just a snapshot of what is there. I accept the view actually that climate change is an important issue and I accept the view that New Zealand needs to do its fair share and I accept the view that there is a strong case that New Zealand might over time be able to do more. But I am just simply making the point that if we ask our farmers to do that and we cannot give them any scientific solutions we are simply putting a cost on them without their being able to actually change their behaviour. That is just called a tax and I do not think that actually helps the consumers of the world who will have to pay for those products.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can he confirm that only one party when asked by him to join the cross-party parliamentary committee on his flag change would not join and it told him that it was a $26 million waste of taxpayers’ money and to shove his Benedict Arnold idea where the sun does not shine?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well I do not recall the letter saying to shove it where the sun don’t shine but I do remember the dinosaurs party saying that it did not want to take part.James Shaw: Given the strong public preference for greater action on climate change than on flag change is he willing to work with other political parties to come up with a more ambitious emissions reduction target?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No the Government has got its position when it comes to climate change targets. It is quite a legitimate thing for every political party to have its own target and its own set of policies but we take those to a general election.