Tolley Anne: Urgent Debates — Roast Busters Case—Independent Police Conduct Authority ReportText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeTolley Anne: Urgent Debates — Roast Busters Case—Independent Police Conduct Authority Report[Sitting date: 19 March 2015. Volume:704;Page:2451. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development): I was the Minister of Police who asked the Independent Police Conduct Authority to investigate this case.Sue Moroney: No Jacinda put a complaint in.Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I did that because politicians cannot interfere with police investigations. I have to say I was the first Minister of Police to ever refer the police to the authority. I was the person who referred the police to the Independent Police Conduct Authority because I knew as this report shows that the authority can reach into the individual investigations to have a look and report on how those investigations were conducted which no politician can ever do.When I look at what I said at the time I said publicly that the commissioner had assured me that the inquiry had been thorough but I was not convinced—and in fact I was made aware—that the full facts had not been made available to him as commissioner let alone to me as Minister.Sue Moroney: That’s not what you said first off.Hon ANNE TOLLEY: It is what I said. It is exactly what I said at the time because what had happened was we had had a number of changing confusing stories given to us—both the commissioner and myself—from the police on the ground that showed as I say confusion. So I could not be sure that the commissioner had fully at his fingertips the facts of the inquiry and in fact that proved to be the case.I think the things that worried me were first those stories were changing. I was also really worried about the age of all of the participants and that is something I will come back to. There were 13 and 14-year-old girls with 16 and 17-year-old boys. I know that does not seem as an adult to be a big difference but we all know in those teenage years that there is a world apart between a 13-year-old girl and a 17-year-old boy or even a 16-year-old boy. They are worlds apart. I was really concerned about the ages of the youngsters involved and I was also worried—and it is not just the police; it is widespread in our community—that when you have a young girl who is involved with sex and alcohol and those of us who have been parents of young girls have often had experience with this to actually talk about them as being able to make informed consent I think is dangerous and to accept that their participation in those events was consented I think is dangerous.So those were the concerns that I had when I referred the police to the Independent Police Conduct Authority. As the Minister of Police that is not something you do lightly. The report that the Independent Police Conduct Authority released today makes me pleased that I made that decision because all of those concerns that I had have been validated in this report. I have to say like everyone in this House we find the Independent Police Conduct Authority’s findings really disappointing because we have high expectations of our police and rightly so. I have always said they are the best police in the world. We are very fortunate with the calibre of people who go into our police and so we have high expectations of them and we should have high expectations and they have let us down. What is more they have let down young people—young vulnerable people in our community.I am also pleased because from today’s report the girls now have the full story and so they understand what happened to them and their experiences and why things did not happen the way that they perhaps expected them to. But I do want to sound a note of caution. The Independent Police Conduct Authority report released today found individual failures. It did not find systemic failures.It found individual failures and we should be making sure that we focus on those. The police Minister has already indicated that he will ensure that they are individual failures and that they are remedied by better systems.The police have made enormous changes since the Dame Margaret Bazley report which was a 10-year process. It was not just about changing policies; it was about implementing those policies. The audit report on that shows that they are making progress but they have still got a way to go. Of course I am absolutely delighted that they have someone like Louise Nicholas working with them with all the experience that she brings.The police today have accepted that there was poor practice by their teams. There was poor supervision. There was poor communication. We had different police stations involved and I have to say we had different Child Youth and Family officers involved and they did not talk to one another. It meant they did not connect the dots and therefore they were not able to protect those young women. The recurring theme through it was yes they did treat those young women well and the Independent Police Conduct Authority makes that comment but that recurring theme of their reluctance to go further because the young women were reluctant to take it further overrode their responsibility to protect the wider group of vulnerable young people in the community. I think that is very important.The Independent Police Conduct Authority report actually says that because officers concluded that there was insufficient evidence to proceed without the cooperation of the young women they decided that no further action was required. They therefore overlooked the importance of holding the young men accountable for their behaviour and preventing its recurrence. The police’s whole focus on prevention was let down because they did not focus on that part of the issue rather than on the wishes of the young women. And we all understand why young girls of 13 and 14 do not want to go through that process.However there is another dimension that I just want to bring forth today and it is that I as social development Minister believe that Child Youth and Family should have done better in this process because it is clear that it was involved in all of this and its processes were not good enough either. That comes out through the Independent Police Conduct Authority report where on a number of occasions it refers to the fact that something had been discussed with Child Youth and Family and follow-up action was not taken and records were not kept and so again those dots were not joined up early enough along.So I have agreed today that an independent review by the Chief Social Worker Paul Nixon based here in Wellington will be put in place to go over this—the complete practice of Child Youth and Family in those offices concerned. I hope from that we will then be able to match that with the very thorough review that the Independent Police Conduct Authority has done and ensure that what we have learnt from this means that the processes are changed and that policies are put into place to prevent this from happening to any group of young vulnerable New Zealanders again. And of course the workings of those combined teams the child protection teams who are specialists in dealing with young people and sexual issues—it is absolutely critical that they are working together cohesively.But more important I think the thing that worries me the most with my current Child Youth and Family Minister hat on is who is responsible at the end of the day for the well-being of those young vulnerable people if a prosecution cannot take place because there is not sufficient evidence. I pick up the point that it is he-said she-said. That is the justice system. People are innocent until they are proven guilty and we change that at our peril but in the meantime there are young vulnerable New Zealanders both girls and boys who are involved in really dangerous activity. Someone somewhere has to take responsibility for dealing with that and for protecting them and working with their families to keep them safe. And if there is one thing that we all learn out of this from the police perspective from the Child Youth and Family perspective and from us as politicians it is that we have to give credence to that thought that someone has to take responsibility even if a prosecution cannot take place. Thank you.