Menéndez March Ricardo; Upston LouiseRICARDO MENÉNDEZ MARCH (Green): Thank you Mr Chair. I'll take my second and final call. I really appreciate the Minister's hot takes on sanctions but she didn't present any research or empirical evidence about whether they work so I'll ask my question again succinctly. Does she have any empirical evidence in New Zealand that the New Zealand sanctions regime actually supports people into employment beyond her hot takes? Because we have seen sanctions gradually increase including in the periods that we're reviewing so I'm curious to know whether she can substantiate whether that increase is backed by evidence.Secondly I also note that she dumped a bunch of figures regarding the Taylor Fry report but those are useful to be put in the context of the recent statements by the Prime Minister who talked about for example under-24s spending on average 24 years on the benefit. That is simply not backed up by the research. The Prime Minister's statements where he talks about people on the youth benefit 'are now languishing' on welfare for an average of 24 years."—that's also not backed up by the Taylor Fry report; that's a forecast. They are not now languishing 24 years on the benefit. So I'm curious to know whether the Minister is confident that the Government MPs who are quoting that report are actually using it in a way that accurately describes its findings or whether this report produced in the period we're reviewing is simply being used to scapegoat young people on the benefit rather than accurately portraying the figures that are there.Lastly I'm curious to know whether the Minister is concerned about the growing level of debt to the Ministry of Social Development by people on the benefit and whether she thinks that the growing level of debt disproportionately carried by women and Māori and including a growing level of debt in seniors and people in work is something that she's concerned about? We've seen an increase of not just the total debt but the average repayments during the period that we're reviewing. And so I'm curious to know how if at all those figures will affect her goals in Government.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment): Thank you Mr Chair. I'm not going to go back over questions that I have already addressed. I do want to come to the question of debt that the member raised because it is very concerning—the level of debt that we are seeing. And also if you look at the period of time that we are referring to and the years before that we have seen—just let me get my figures right—in terms of the number of hardship assistance that the number of hardship assistance provided nearly doubled and the value of the hardship assistance nearly trebled. So what is really concerning in the year in review was that we did see increasing need and that is absolutely connected to the level of debt.What we do know to be a contributing factor absolutely is the massive increase in the cost of living. That is why addressing the cost of living when the coalition Government came in was and still is the No. 1 priority. Otherwise we will see families households individuals who have fixed incomes on benefit doing it the toughest. That is also why there needs to be more of a focus on supporting people into employment so that they will have higher incomes. And when people are in work we will not see this escalation in the level of debt that we have seen. So absolutely I'm concerned. It is a problem. It's connected to the cost of living crisis and it's connected unfortunately to the fact that we've seen a massive increase in the number of people on the jobseeker benefit staying there for longer and a related connection to the increase both in the number of hardship assistance that's provided and the value. So doing nothing isn't an option. That is absolutely why we have to go back to the principles of the Social Security Act which is about supporting people to be preparing for or to be in work."