Hide Rodney: Maori Purposes Bill (No 2) — Second Reading Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee 
Hide Rodney: Maori Purposes Bill (No 2) — Second Reading Instruction to CommitteeCWH In Committee 
[Volume:607;Page:4828] 
RODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ) 
: 
 We have actually had quite an interesting development today. When we started out—and I appreciate Dr Cullen’s “upfrontness” on this issue—we were attacked from all sides when we said that this clause gave the chairperson the power to replace a person on a panel. We heard from various members of the House who had actually sat on the Maori Affairs Committee. They said that that is not what was envisaged. The ACT party pointed out that what is envisaged and what the law says are actually different things. We have now heard the Hon Dr Michael Cullen explain that yes this clause—and I want members to be very clear about what they are voting on; and I am looking at the Hon Dr Michael Cullen in case I get it wrong—gives the chairperson the power to replace a member of the Waitangi Tribunal from a panel halfway through an inquiry and carry on the inquiry. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: On reasonable grounds. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: Yes. At the present stage that can happen simply because of the opinion of the chairperson. It can happen if the chairperson thinks there is a reason in the person’s personal circumstances. So anything could do. A member cannot be replaced from the tribunal but he or she certainly can be replaced from the panel halfway through an inquiry. I ask members to picture it. People go before the Waitangi Tribunal panel and present their evidence. Then the chairperson changes one of the people on the panel—and they write the report but they did not hear the evidence. As it stands the provision gives the chairperson the power to do that and I also think that the Hon Michael Cullen is saying that it is virtually un-reviewable. It is simply a matter of the opinion of the chairperson. No judge can look at that and say: “We contest that opinion.” So now the Government is saying that it will change that take out the phrase: “in the opinion of the Chairperson” and give it an objective test as to whether that is reasonable. Is that the way we want to conduct judicial affairs in this country? Do we want a situation where a panel member after 5 years of sitting down and hearing a case is told by the chairperson: “I am going to replace you with someone else from the tribunal and if you don’t like it you can go for a judicial review on whether what I am doing is reasonable.”? Most people would say that that is a kangaroo court that it is monkey business and that they do not want to be a party to it. They certainly do not want those quasi-judicial officers to seek a judicial review on their sacking. So before lunch we suggested an amendment—and I think my colleague Mr Franks has drafted it—to the effect that the person has to choose to resign from the panel. So the power would be in their hands as judicial officers—it would not be in the hands of the chairperson to sack them. 
Then we heard from Michael Cullen. I do not think I am doing him a disservice because I do not think that select committee members understood this point. He said: “But we want the chairperson to have the power to sack a person from the panel.” That is what the Minister said. My goodness me! Was it really? The reason is that Maori interconnectedness is special and there can be conflicts of interest that a person does not recognise. If that is the case what about the conflict of interest of the chairperson who is not even sitting on the panel? So he or she can replace someone and the only defence in this process is that the person replaced can seek a judicial review. That is wrong as a matter of principle and judicial operation. We say that if the chairperson is to have the ability to sack a panel member then the reasons should be stated. Let us require the chairpersons to get from this Parliament the guidance they will need because otherwise it looks as though we are up to monkey business in this Parliament today.