Collins JudithHon JUDITH COLLINS (National—Papakura): What a very nice contribution from the Hon Ron Mark. I think it is a good time to think about Meka Whaitiri and her family but I also think it's a good time to think about the victim in this matter—as has been noted an alleged victim. Well actually if this was a Minister on this side of the House there would be no way that the Labour Party or anyone on the other side of the House would say that was an alleged victim.I think it would've been nice if the Labour Party and their friends had thought about Todd Barclay as they hounded him out of Parliament. He was not a Minister he did not have a ministerial warrant; he was a kid in his 20s and whatever the alleged mistake was none of it involved assault.Hon Shane Jones: Bill English knew—Bill knew!Hon JUDITH COLLINS: No one alleged assault. And the Hon Shane Jones who has now piped up—well I think he knows but of course he was in fact the person who had done something he shouldn't do.I've heard today a lot of names dished about by the Hon Kelvin Davis—and I say honourable" with some trepidation.DEPUTY SPEAKER: All members are honourable.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: This is the deputy leader of the Labour Party. All he can do is throw mud.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Is he?Hon JUDITH COLLINS: He apparently is the deputy leader of the Labour Party. So he throws mud and when there is no mud he makes mud and then he throws it. He would have to be the most incompetent deputy leader even the Labour Party's ever had—even worse than Andrew Little was when he was the leader of the Labour Party—Hon Andrew Little: What a hilarious speech!Hon JUDITH COLLINS: No "Mr 23 Percent". So when we look at this particular sacking of Meka Whaitiri why did it take so long? It took so long because the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern was not capable of making the decision on it.Hon Andrew Little: How was Shanghai? Tell us about that. How was Shanghai?Hon JUDITH COLLINS: You know we've got a Minister of Justice in the Hon Andrew Little who—all he wants to do is again throw mud. See that's the problem for the Labour Party: they're so used to being in Opposition they got themselves so into that point that they cannot possibly come back to what's important. In this case what's important is the victim.So we've got a staff member supposedly seconded into Meka Whaitiri's office and who gets to investigate? Well Ministerial Services. So Ministerial Services are investigating a Cabinet Minister. I'm not sure how that works. How does Ministerial Services investigate a Cabinet Minister? Ministerial Services do not actually appoint a Minister—they do not appoint a Minister. They're not there to check what the Minister is doing. They're there to serve the Minister. So we've got a Cabinet Minister being investigated by Ministerial Services. There's something entirely wrong with this. If this is an assault this matter should have been referred to the New Zealand Police. If the victim did not want to give evidence to the police because she did not want Meka Whaitiri to end up with a conviction or to go through that stress you have to wonder why. Why? What else has been said to this victim? What has happened to her?Now the Hon Kris Faafoi who many people know I've been pushing for some time to be a Cabinet Minister—me and many other people. He still needs to do something to show why he shouldn't be. What he said on The AM Show on Friday on TV3 was that we should be careful about this—we should be careful about this assault. And I said "Well what's there to be careful about?" And he said and I thought this was stunning "There's another person involved." So there's a victim involved—an alleged victim he said. Well actually how come we're not standing up as a Parliament for this victim? People don't get bruising because they were spoken to harshly. They don't get shoved out a door or assaulted in an office because they were spoken to nastily. And how can anybody possibly think that that's OK behaviour?Now we've heard that yes there are always two sides to everything. Every abuser says that actually. Everyone says "I was upset that day; therefore I hit my spouse." or "I hit somebody else." They all say that. But let's just think about this again. This is a person who—we don't know what's happened to the victim. We don't know if anyone's looked after the victim. What we know is that Meka Whaitiri had a series of staff members who came into her office in those relatively short months she was a Minister—about nine or 10 months—and they all left. We've heard that seven staff members left. It's really hard to get sacked in a Minister's office. Most of us who have been Ministers know that it's so good to have good staff always trying their best and actually the last thing you want is to have that sort of disruption. Also you don't want to ruin people's careers because we know that if a staff member gets sacked from a Minister's office or shoved out of a Minister's office in some way it could affect their career.Hon Andrew Little: You should have thought about that when you were sacking public officials in your time.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: And it's all very well for Andrew Little to shout out but name one public official who I—Hon Andrew Little: Oh don't worry; they'll be asked. Don't worry.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: Name one. And the answer is: none. Because actually that's one of the reasons why Ministers who actually have good reputations with their staff protect them.Hon Andrew Little: That member's conduct was a disgrace.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: When I think about Andrew Little and what he's saying—he is somebody who had to apologise to me in court for defaming me. So everything that Andrew Little says now I've noticed is always under parliamentary privilege because he's had to do that. And he didn't even pay his own legal fees. Did you know that? He didn't. He got his caucus to do it. Couldn't even front up with his own legal fees to defend himself.So I'm not going to talk too much about some of the people who have exited from the Labour Party. I'm not going to talk much about some of them—I've got a whole list of them here—because actually that is only falling into the trap of attacking people like Darren Hughes and David Benson-Pope and Lianne Dalziel—Hon Andrew Little: Tell us about Shanghai!DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Can I just remind—[Interruption] Excuse me but I'd just remind the Minister of Justice that a barrage of constantly repeating the same thing—I've said the same to the Hon Shane Jones—is not acceptable interventions.Hon Gerry Brownlee: It's ironic isn't it the Minister of Justice?DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. That's not helpful.Hon JUDITH COLLINS: We're not going to go down the track of going on about why they were sacked or left or whatever because actually it's not about them; it's about this particular instance.What was it that was so important around Meka Whaitiri? And we've heard it today. It was essentially the Māori caucus of the Labour Party who went to see Jacinda Ardern to say "You know we like Meka." Actually that is a matter of weakness in many ways because if you have to go down that path of saying "Well we like Meka Whaitiri." that's actually not good enough. It's not about that. It's about: did she physically assault a staff member in her office to the point that this person—(1) did it happen? (2) Did she bully people? Did she bully staff members? Seven people leaving within a year probably suggests that there wasn't a happy life going on there. So let's hear from Meka Whaitiri about this. We haven't heard a thing from Meka Whaitiri. She was taken out from Parliament avoided Parliament and was apparently paid on full ministerial salary while this was all going on. We're told she was busy in her electorate. Well I don't know what she was doing in her electorate because it certainly wasn't getting any coverage. But actually why can't we hear from Meka Whaitiri about this? If she wants to come forward and tell us all what happened why she feels she's been badly treated let's hear from her because if she was still a Minister we should be able to ask those questions. But actually we haven't been able to because she was taken away out of question time and out of Parliament for weeks while this was all ongoing and yet she was paid on full salary.When we think about how the Prime Minister has handled this—well we all know that she got tremendously criticised about the slackness and the months that it took over Clare Curran. It took months and months and months and finally she had to do something and then instantly we see Meka Whaitiri suddenly on the chopping block. That was obvious that she would have to be dealt with because of the criticism in the media and in the public about these constant non-turnings up not answering like Clare Curran. The Prime Minister has made decisions. It's her ministry; she gets to make those decisions not us. But what she's saying now is that if there's an allegation of assault she'll investigate it. If the investigation says yes it did happen and the former Minister or Minister says "I'm not sure about that." or "It didn't happen." well she'll still just open the door let them come back and who knows what else she's going to accept.Debate interrupted."