Goldsmith PaulHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): I think we can conclude from that that the Minister does agree that the bill is not intended to capture a parent or caregiver withholding consent for medical intervention. I mean I think it's actually good to get that on the Hansard and it may well inform the legal process when indeed these sorts of cases go to court. I would be happier if they would include it but at least we appear to have a reasonable amount of clarity from the Minister on that issue.The other one—yeah there were two others. One is around the expression of any opinion and again the Minister has made very clear his view that the expression of any opinion is not to be captured by this bill and it could not be construed as some sort of conversion therapy even if it was a sustained effort to direct it at somebody to suppress—I still can't understand how that logic flows but maybe he can clarify that more clearly.But the other example I just wanted to get a very clear answer from the Minister on was in relation to a health practitioner". This is again dealt with in the legislation where a conversion practice does not include any action that a health practitioner takes when providing a health service if they comply with legal standards and one of those legal standards is requiring informed consent before any medical intervention takes place. So we have a reasonably high level of certainty that this is not meant to be captured. But I suppose where I come from is the point that as is intended laws have an impact on people's behaviour and when people are faced with the possibility of imprisonment if they get on the wrong side of the line or are being hauled before a Human Rights Commission they tend to react very conservatively. The risk is that people hang back from confrontational conversations and fail to ask some of the real questions that need to be asked and in this context—in the context of teenagers making very significant medical decisions about their lives—the most fundamental question that should be asked not just once but perhaps a number of times is "Do you really want to do this?"My only concern is to ensure that those important basic medical questions continue to be asked and that's why I want to have it very clear from the Minister that an example of an act that is not a conversion practice includes a health practitioner frankly outlining the risks consequence and merits of medical intervention in relation to gender transition. I thought including that as an example in the legislation would be helpful but I'd be very keen to hear from the Minister some clarity on that issue.Hon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice): Thank you Madam Chair and thank you to the member for the question. This is one area where I think that the Justice Committee made some extremely good amendments to the bill to make it tidier in terms of clarity for health practitioners. I would note I did manage to see a submission to the bill from I think it was the Nursing Council who were very comfortable with the bill as it stood at first reading and as it arrived to select committee but I think they would welcome the changes that the select committee had made. To the question that the member posed I think that would not be an unreasonable question to ask. Asking "Are you sure that you want to do this?" would be perfectly fine within the realms of the bill as it stands because I think those who are acting in accordance with their legal professional and ethical standards in a situation with someone who might be exploring such treatment or a procedure would ask a question like that. If it were to go outside the bounds of their legal remit their professional practices or the ethical standards of their body—all of which I believe in the medical profession oppose conversion practices—would get them into trouble with the bill as it stands. But I do believe that the question gets asked nearly always about making sure that people are comfortable informed and want to go through with a procedure if they have made this decision. It would happen now and I believe the bill as it stands allows that to continue to happen."