Goldsmith PaulHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you Madam Chair. That was a brief call and it was quick off the mark. The fundamental point of this bill that we're debating here is that the Government does not like the answers given by the public in referendums so far which has been in the majority to say No we don't want separate Māori wards." and the answer—which is on the face of it something that's quite difficult to explain—the Minister's answer has been "Oh well yes but they can still have referendums; they won't be binding." and that of course reassures nobody.The second answer seems to be "But of course ultimately it's the decisions of the elected councillors and mayor." and the implication being that if the people don't like the decisions that they've made well they can vote them out the next time round. The problem with that is that well yes they could vote them out the next time round but they can't do anything about this decision which is made which is to have Māori wards in that council. The point is that once they're there there's no way to remove them and so for the next hundred years—for example if Auckland Council was to have Māori wards they would have Māori wards for many many decades to come. So it is a very long-term decision being made and that is why most people I think most Kiwis would say given the long-term effects of this decision in the way that we arrange our constitutional matters it is appropriate for the people living here right now to have a say not just councillors who come and go and they're elected on whether they favour cycle lanes or low rates or high rates and a whole range of issues but for the broader community to make a judgment on that. That is why we firmly believe that this clause is wrong in removing the ability for the people of New Zealand to have a say on how they want to have these things organised.The previous time I spoke we had another member Chlöe Swarbrick accusing me of race-baiting by raising this issue and pointing out that there are people in New Zealand who don't agree with the idea of having separate seats based on ethnicity. Now she might disagree with that proposition and a whole lot of people might disagree with that proposition but in a free and open society we should respect the different views of different people and not try and bully them I suppose with accusations of racism when they express those views. I find it highly ironic that she would be in the bullying category on this matter.I mean one of the issues that people rightly ask is if you have separate wards based on a particular group all councillors—I was a city councillor in Auckland and when you're elected as a city councillor you are there to represent all the people—all the people—particularly in your ward if it's a geographical area whether they're Māori Pacific Asian European everybody. You are there to represent everybody. Hon Aupito William Sio: But do you?Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: We do our best and we're not all perfect Minister Sio. We all sometimes fall and don't reach our hopes and aspirations in life but we do our best and we do our best to represent all New Zealanders. The concern that many people will have is that if you are elected only by one ethnic group in a particular ward your focus will naturally be on that particular ethnic group not on everybody else and that's the fundamental anxiety or concern that people have around these separate seats. The Government might not like that and they might not agree with it but we believe on this side of the House that it is a fair question for people to have the opportunity to express their opinion on and the best way they can do that is with a referendum. So this bill which removes that ability and says from the Government to New Zealanders "We don't trust your judgment on this matter. We don't agree with the decisions you're making and therefore we're going to take away your ability to have those decisions and that judgment." is wrong and on that basis we oppose it."