Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill — In Committee 
Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill — In Committee 
[Volume:653;Page:2086] 
Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill 
In Committee 
Clause 1 Title 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 1 agreed to. 
Clause 2 Commencement 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 2 be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 2 agreed to. 
Clause 3 Purpose 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 At the outset as we move into the Committee stage of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill I once again reiterate that Labour opposes this bill. But I acknowledge Chester Borrows the MP for Whanganui for bringing this bill to the House. We know that the bill had its genesis in discussions in Wanganui about the problem with gangs and I respect the member for having brought this bill to Parliament so that it can be debated and discussed. However— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: But! 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: —however—there is a serious problem I believe with this bill. It is flawed because it wants to wish away the problem of gangs in Wanganui rather than deal with the issues that lie behind the problem. We have a serious problem with crime committed by gangs and with violence in our towns and cities and a serious response to those issues is needed. But I am sorry to say that this bill is a cosmetic response to those issues—literally in many ways. It focuses on what gangs wear rather than on what gangs do and that is the wrong approach to be taking. 
We have to recognise that people in Wanganui have been dealing with difficult issues around gangs over recent times but unfortunately they are being led astray by this bill. It is not the patches that commit the crimes; it is the gang members who commit the crimes and perpetrate the violence. We need to work on the causes of crime. It is disappointing in many ways that we are not looking at some of the deeper issues around crime. 
In the Wanganui police district in 2007 there were about a thousand domestic violence incidents and our attention should be focusing on the causes of those crimes that are happening there. Another major flaw in this bill is that it is piecemeal and ad hoc. It is a well-known fact among the legal community that we should not make criminal law on a region-by-region basis because quite simply all that will do is move problems around rather than deal with them. It is almost like watching an episode of  
The 
Dukes of Hazzard 
 or something where people move to the county line to get away from a particular law. That is not the kind of criminal law—and Mr Bridges knows this from his experience—that we should have in New Zealand. It makes for a piecemeal and ad hoc approach and it makes for a very difficult law to enforce. 
We also know that this bill has significant issues in terms of definition. What is gang insignia? What is significant about the colours that gangs wear? Are they a significant part of their being and their role? Of course we know that it would be completely impossible to ban a colour—to ban the colour red or the colour blue—from the city of Wanganui yet we are trying in this bill to find a way to define insignia. I do not think that that will be able to be enforced in a way that can be meaningful. 
We also know that the bill enables particular public places in the Wanganui area to be identified as being areas where gang insignia is not allowed to be worn. That is of concern to members on this side of the Chamber because we know that the areas that will be targeted will be the central city areas—the areas where the Wanganui City Council would rather it could put the problem of gangs out of sight and out of mind. The areas that will not be targeted are where there are problems with gang violence—places like Castlecliff Tawhero and other such places. We know that this approach will simply enable the problem to be shifted out of the central city out of the minds of the people of the Wanganui District Council and unfortunately into the lives of people in those areas. 
We also know that this bill was opposed on its first reading by the ACT Party. That was an interesting position to take— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: What did Rodney say? 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Rodney Hide actually had some very interesting things to say I tell Mr Mallard and I will take the opportunity to quote him from his April 2008 speech. He said “I am so pleased that Mr Chester Borrows has relieved me of the obligation of voting for this shocking Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. I said that the ACT Party would vote for the bill to go to a select committee. We could never vote for its third reading”. 
Mr Hide made some very good points in that speech about the fact that the concern we have about gangs is not about what they wear; it is about what they do. But Mr Hide has subsequently decided that his position has changed on the bill and he said this on Television New Zealand’s  
Back Benches 
 show. His position has changed as a result of a deal over the “three strikes” bill. Once upon a time the ACT Party was dealing with this issue on principle but now it has moved on and is prepared to trade away those principles—about freedoms and rights—to be able to get its “three strikes” bill through. 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 This bill prohibits the wearing of gang insignia that endorses supports or identifies a prohibited criminal group as defined by clause 4 and as contained in a related by-law. The penalty for wearing such gang insignia is a $2000 fine and confiscation of the patch and there is a power to arrest for non-compliance. Aligned with this power is the power to stop and search vehicles in a public place or vehicles that have travelled through a designated banned insignia area. 
The previous Attorney-General Michael Cullen reported unfavourably in respect of the bill with a number of concerns but I am pleased to report to the Committee that advisers now confirm that the vast number of those concerns have been addressed by changes made by the Law and Order Committee with the help of the Labour members of course who showed some significant concern about and interest in this bill. They put their minds to it and some changes were made. Of course changes are also made by the Supplementary Order Paper that I have tabled in respect of tattoos. 
A number of concerns were raised about tattoos and the committee was split on this issue. Labour members with the support of New Zealand First insisted that tattoos be considered gang insignia so the National members who voted against that were voted down. Accordingly Supplementary Order Paper 12 deals with that particular issue. The point is that tattoos should not be considered gang insignia on the basis that somebody who has been tattooed but who now wants to comply with the law could be prevented from entering specified places depending upon where that tattoo was. For instance it would not be easy to cover up a tattoo on the face or one that was visible on the body without creating further intimidation. 
The purpose of the bill is to address intimidation of members of the public by gang members. It is all very well for the previous speaker Grant Robertson to talk about this bill’s superficial actions or superficial intent in respect of gangs. The point is that we are talking about addressing the problem of people who feel intimidated by members of the community who wear patches. We are talking about people who are forced to live among patched gang members or their associates. We are not trying to deal with the whole gang problem in this particular bill and the previous speaker is quite right in suggesting that to try to do so in this legislation would be superficial or ad hoc. But we are not trying to do that. This bill is just adding to the sheaf of legislation in respect of gangs that the National Government has brought forward in the last few months. And the Labour Party actually supports it. So it is a matter of just adding to the legislation rather than trying to address the whole problem. 
If the previous speaker’s point is that a little piece of legislation like this will not address some significant amount of offending we have to remember that no legislation on our statute book actually prevents offending. We have laws against murder rape and arson but people still murder rape and burn things down. The point is that this legislation is trying to deal to one particular issue and that is the intimidation that people feel when they are surrounded by patched gang members. 
I was speaking to the Mayor of Wanganui this morning. He has been in the isolation ward of the children’s wing of Wanganui Hospital with his daughter who is sick. He has been there for 6 days. This morning he walked out of his daughter’s room and saw a patched gang member walking down the corridor of the children’s wing of Wanganui Hospital. It is not as if the Mayor of Wanganui was intimidated by that but the point is what are we doing having patched gang members within our public buildings? For goodness’ sake what are we doing having patched gang members in the children’s ward of Wanganui Hospital? 
Some concern has been raised as to who could be included in the definition of “gangs”. I draw clause 4 to the attention of the Committee. Under its definition of “gang” it names specific gangs: “(a) Black Power Hell’s Angels Magogs Mothers Mongrel Mob Nomads or Tribesmen;”. Clause 4 goes on to describe a gang as “(b) any other specified organisation association or group of persons identified in a bylaw made under section 5”. Clause 5 refers to gang members associates or supporters individually or collectively promoting encouraging or engaging in a pattern of criminal activity. Members of the Daimler Club who happen to wear insignia on the back of their embroidered jackets will not be listed as gang members and could not be listed as gang members under this bill. 
Another point to make is that the good people of Wanganui have taken it upon themselves to take responsibility for something that exists right across New Zealand and that is the abusive nature of gangs their behaviour and the behaviour of their associates. This is common in every large city in every provincial city and in every reasonable-sized town within our country. The people of Wanganui have used the provisions of the Local Government Act 2002 enacted by the Labour Party when in Government to bring this legislation before the House. They have a right to do that. If the Labour Government never intended that to happen why on earth did its members not put in the Act that it was outside the scope of that Act to bring in criminal legislation to apply within a region? This is just democracy. 
The point made by the previous speaker Grant Robertson was that criminal law should not be done region by region but we have a couple of very good examples. One of them is our law relating to curfews which was imposed initially in Te Kuiti and was gradually rolled out around the country. Another one is the liquor ban legislation. It was brought in to deal with the problem at New Year’s Eve in certain areas and was then rolled out around the country. It is an example of criminal legislation that was enacted for one particular region but was then rolled out around the country and taken up by other areas. 
Yesterday morning the headline on the front page of the  
Wanganui Chronicle 
 stated “Man killed with axe over red hoodie court hears”. There is a depositions hearing and it relates to the death of Paul Kumeroa who was not a gang member but who on 23 September last year was walking down the street while wearing a red T-shirt. He was set upon by a carload of patch-wearing Black Power gang members and beaten up. He was thrown to the ground and hit over the back of the head with an axe and he died 2 days later. That is the nature of gang activity within our provincial towns. No doubt members opposite will say that this legislation would never have prevented that from happening because he was wearing only a red T-shirt and it did not have a gang insignia on it—in fact it was a gang colour or was perceived as such because it was red. The fact is that if gang insignia had been banned at the time if the gang members in the car that had been cruising around Castlecliff for some time had been tipped out—because of their gang insignia—by the cops using the powers that they will have under this legislation that incident could well have been prevented— 
Grant Robertson 
: How would it have prevented the crime? 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: Under this legislation the whole nature of policing gang members would be that if they were stopped and turned out if they were arrested if they were taken— 
Grant Robertson 
: They would lose their patches and they wouldn’t commit the crime. 
CHESTER BORROWS 
: No that is not the point—that if they lost their patches they would not continue to behave like that. But they would have been identified and they would have been aware of a police presence. That is the nature of policing. I am sure that even Mr Robertson can get his head round that. 
I want to make a couple of final points. The first one is about the youth survey that was conducted in Wanganui at the end of 2005 and reported in 2006. Young people were spoken to about their city and were asked to address a number of things. When they were asked about things that detract from Wanganui 49 percent of them listed the intimidation by gangs as their top priority. There were 778 responses to this question and 382 of them said that what made them feel the most unsafe in Wanganui was gang activity. The Wanganui District Council having placed this issue before its population through a referendum had an endorsement from that referendum to produce this legislation. The process requires that a local bill go out for public consultation. Having received no submissions— 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
 I have tabled some amendments to this legislation and I will discuss them as they arise. However I want to address clause 4 “Interpretation”. Is that what we are debating? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No we are on clause 3 “Purpose”. 
METIRIA TUREI 
: Mr Borrows has set out some interesting propositions about this clause. I take exception to his trying to gain sympathy from Parliament by talking about the personal circumstances of the Mayor of Wanganui. That is not relevant to our discussion or our consideration of whether the citizens of Wanganui should be subject to legislation that severely restricts their freedom of movement. 
One of the other cases that Mr Borrows raised concerned a young man who was beaten to death for wearing a red jacket. This bill makes that kind of violence more likely rather than less likely. If this bill had been enacted those gang members in the car simply would not have been wearing their patches as they roamed around looking for a means to commit acts of violence. They would not have worn their patches. They would not have been stopped by the police. The police would have had no legal justification for stopping and searching them and therefore there would have been no restriction on their movements. Those gang members would have found anybody who looked like another kind of gang member—in this case someone wearing a red jacket—and attacked him. 
Part of what this bill will do by removing gang patches as a form of identification is to encourage gangs to use other means to identify themselves. Colour will be the primary means by which gang members identify their affiliation to a gang. Gang colours are part of the identification process already. We have yellow for the Killer Bees red for the Mongrel Mob and blue and black for Black Power. Interestingly enough a lot of the white gangs like White Power and some of the motorcycle gangs do not have colours or patches— 
Simon Bridges 
: So this is racist as well is it? 
METIRIA TUREI 
: Yes it is racist law. Those gangs will not be subject to this legislation. Nothing in this bill will impact on those gangs because they do not wear gang patches. They have bald heads or they have big boots. They will not be identified. But for those gangs that do identify themselves by colour colour will be the primary means of identifying them. Gang members will be roaming around the countryside looking for their gang enemies who are wearing the colours I have mentioned. This provision will put the citizenry of the whole country at greater risk of the kind of violence that Mr Borrows has just set out. I do not know whether that was an understood consequence of his legislation when he put it forward but that is how it will be dealt with by gang affiliates and gang members. They simply will not wear their patches. They will revert to colours instead. Anyone who unknowingly wears gang colours will be much more vulnerable to gang violence across the country not just in this one city. 
I also note that there is nothing in this legislation that prevents the by-law from covering every single public area of the Wanganui District. In fact this legislation could apply to every part of the Wanganui District. It does not restrict itself to city areas. It does not restrict itself solely to public places where the community congregates. In fact it could cover every street every paddock and every place that the council has any control over. The entire region could be covered by this legislation. Effectively that means that the discriminatory aspects of this legislation will then apply to any person going in or out of the Wanganui region. I assume that the Mayor of Wanganui City intended that to be the case. That is the kind of person he is and the kind of intention he would have. He would do his best—and I think Chester Borrows might have been involved in this—to keep from the public the fact that the entirety of the Wanganui region would be subject to this by-law. 
People are subject to the criminal consequences of this law even if there is no signage that tells them that there is a law affecting that particular area. Someone could commit a criminal offence by just driving through the Wanganui region. A person with no knowledge of this bill would still be subject to the provisions of it and that could lead to a $2000 fine. That is a significant breach of the human rights of New Zealand citizens. 
SANDRA GOUDIE (National—Coromandel) 
: 
 I would like to focus on the purpose of the bill which is to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district. The Wanganui District is looking to specify places. There is not much difference between this legislation and the liquor ban legislation that local authorities have successfully embraced country-wide. It has been a huge success up and down New Zealand. We can go to public places and families can take part in New Year celebrations and not feel vulnerable around people who are drunk. That is because of liquor bans in public places. This bill is no different from that sort of legislation whereby a council is taking an opportunity to keep its community and families and children safe. Good on you Wanganui! 
The purpose of the bill is to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district—that is the Wanganui District. But I say that other districts throughout this country will look to adopt this same legislation. The one problem with this bill is that it does not have a schedule whereby other local authorities can add their names to it and do the very same thing as Wanganui. I say “Good on you Wanganui! You are leading the way in making sure that you keep your community feeling safe and not so vulnerable by prohibiting the display of gang insignia.” The definition of “gang insignia” does not exclude words—because words are also symbols—that might be related to a gang. 
This legislation relates to specified places—unlike what was stated by the previous speaker it does not apply just anywhere and everywhere. This is similar to the liquor bans implemented in specified public places in the district. If one reads the purpose—and I put it to Opposition members that perhaps they might like to actually read the purpose—it relates to specified places in the district. [ 
Interruption 
] Look we can tell! Members opposite are supposed to be focused on the purpose of the bill but all the previous Opposition speaker could do was talk about another political party. He could not even focus on the purpose of the bill. I would be very interested to hear what Opposition members understand the purpose of the bill to be. Of course this is a part of the nanny State complex that members of the Opposition have whereby they want to try to control everything and not allow communities to instigate their own forms of control and to act to safeguard themselves. That is what Wanganui is doing but oh no the Opposition does not like that. It wants absolute control and to be the absolute arbiter of everything. I say “Good on you Wanganui. You are taking proactive steps to look after your community and you have the ability to do that through this local bill.” This is something that everybody—including all councils throughout this country—will be watching with interest to see what the outcomes are from the purpose of this bill in regard to constraining the wearing of gang insignia in specified places within the district. 
Although this bill is for the Wanganui District Council there will be councils up and down the country that will look to the outcomes from this bill and want to do exactly the same thing in their district. 
Grant Robertson 
: Make it a Government bill then. Why isn’t it a Government bill? 
SANDRA GOUDIE 
: Maybe that member might like to take a call— 
Moana Mackey 
: He already has! 
SANDRA GOUDIE 
: Well he has but he did not actually know what the purpose of the bill was. He did not focus on the purpose of the bill; he talked about other political parties. He might need to take another call to show the Committee that he actually has some understanding of it. 
The purpose of the bill is commendable indeed. Wanganui is not alone in this problem. This problem is occurring in other urban environments in other residential areas and in other towns and cities throughout the country. That is why in my view this is going to be just one of the first steps for other local authorities around New Zealand. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 Dearie me! Five minutes can seem like a very long time sometimes. 
Paul Quinn 
: Do you people ever have any other sort of introduction? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I say to Sandra Goudie that when Paul Quinn is sitting there looking embarrassed one knows that one is on the wrong track. 
I commend Chester Borrows and the Wanganui District Council for this bill. We believe that local bills should go to select committees and get a fair hearing particularly in relation to issues as important as gang matters. But I am afraid that that is where the Labour Party support for this bill ends and it is for the simple reason that it will not do anything and it may actually cause more problems than it solves. I have great respect for Chester Borrows but I was bit disturbed to hear what I thought was his criticising of a patched gang member for being in hospital visiting his sick child. I hope that is not what the member was saying because he comes from a party that would be very quick to jump to its feet and criticise any patched gang member who abandoned his child in hospital and who did not visit that child in hospital. So I find it offensive that we are now saying that patched gang members should be kept out of hospitals and prevented from visiting their children and meeting their responsibilities as parents because they are doing that—they are. I want to know whether Wanganui Hospital would be part of the area included in this bill because what matters is what gang members do not what they wear. This bill will do nothing. 
Chester Borrows then stomped on his own argument quite nicely when he pointed out a recent case and said that this bill would be good because it would identify gang members and when those members were in a car the police would be able to pick them up. But of course under this bill it would just be a car of people not wearing anything that identified them and police would not see what they may have seen before. Previously people may have rung in to say that they had seen gang members so an unintended consequence of this bill could be that that may now not happen. I think that the member promoting the bill has stomped on his own argument quite nicely in that regard. 
His points about tattoos also highlighted the complete “unworkability” of this legislation. 
Sandra Goudie 
: Oh rubbish! 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Sandra Goudie the brains trust over there says that is rubbish. Maybe she should listen for 5 minutes before she opens her mouth. Most people would tell her that the facial tattoos that gang members wear are amongst the most intimidating gang insignia there is. Of course this bill will not cover that. Chester Borrows is putting up an amendment to say that and I understand the reasons why he says it is not workable. But the fact is that we are taking away only some insignia. Some gang members will like the fact that they have now been made even more illegal—they are even listed in an Act of Parliament now as being something that society hates—and there will be others who will simply take off the patches wear the colours wear the bandannas and go about doing exactly what they have always done. This Government has nothing in place to deal with the actions of gangs; it simply wants to deal with what they look like. 
I want to know what the ACT Party thinks. What do Rodney Hide and Heather Roy think? At the time of this bill’s first reading Heather Roy said in the press: “The move to outlaw gangs their patches and tattoos is nothing more than a ploy to give the appearance of action—a ploy that will yield no results or benefit to New Zealand society in the long-term struggle to deal with the country’s gang problem”. I agree with her 100 percent. So why is Heather Roy now turning around and voting for this bill? I will tell members. It is because the ACT members have done a deal. They know that this bill will not work. They know that it would cause more problems than it solves. They know that because we do not know what areas these by-laws will cover the rich parts of Wanganui will probably have by-laws banning gangs and the poor parts of Wanganui will not have these by-laws. But those areas will be areas where there are the kids that are most at risk of becoming gang prospects. Chester Borrows can shake his head but does he know that will not happen? I ask Mr Borrows where the by-laws will be. He does not know. It is exactly right that he does not know. We may end up in a situation whereby business owners in the areas that do not have the by-law have to deal with an influx of gang members in their areas. I ask Mr Garrett whether that is fair for business owners in those areas. 
Should we not perhaps be doing things that actually solve the issue of gangs and that deal to gangs like the proceeds of crime legislation that this Government is letting just float around? We do not know what the Government is doing with that. Why is that legislation languishing on the Order Paper when it would actually do something to deal with the financial base of gangs and might actually do something to help us eliminate gangs? Why are we dealing with this flimflam bill that does nothing more than deal with what gang members wear and does nothing about what they do? I hope that Mr Borrows will take another call and answer that question. 
SIMON BRIDGES (National—Tauranga) 
: 
 It is excellent to be speaking on this very good bill the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill put forward and guided skilfully through the House by the excellent member of Parliament for Whanganui Chester Borrows. As I understand it he is the only member in this House who has been a police officer and has dealt with these issues on the ground. It is very very good to have his expert words and practical experience on this bill as well as his ability to guide it through the House. 
I want to do something novel at this stage and actually talk a bit about the purpose of this bill—seeing we are debating the purpose clause. I noted what Grant Robertson the member on the other side of the Chamber said. He said that this bill had some problems in terms of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. On this side of the Chamber we take the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act seriously. We take it very seriously. We did not act like the previous Attorney-General who did not even issue a report on the Electoral Finance Act. We did not railroad that Act through. We take rights seriously. It is good to see that in the purpose clause we are no longer talking about the prohibition of the wearing of gang insignia. We have taken note of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and some of the criticisms in that regard. The bill no longer prohibits the wearing of gang insignia; it merely prohibits the displaying of the insignia. So people will not be in breach of the law if a gang patch is worn underneath their clothes—that makes the bill more “bill of rights friendly” and I think that is a good thing. 
I want to talk about tattoos as well. There are some extreme ironies on the issue of tattoos because before the election—and I am sure I am right—Labour wanted tattoos included in the bill. Labour was in favour of criminalising the issue of gang insignia tattoos. I said at the first reading of this bill and I say again that it is something that we needed to consider and that we have considered. We will be putting forward amendments. The reason why we got rid of tattoos in this bill is very clear. It is common sense. Tattoos are permanent; they are not transitory. One cannot at least not with any ease take them off. My father-in-law lives in England not in New Zealand. He as a 21-year-old man after a few too many drinks had some Welsh leeks tattooed on his forearm. He cannot get rid of those at least not with any ease. So it is right that we do not include tattoos in this bill. 
This reminds me of a case I was involved in—on the peripheries with a witness in the case. I think he intended to have “mongrel” tattooed across the top of his forehead but he missed out the “r” and it was “mongel”—there you have it. He will not be criminalised by this bill because we do unlike Labour take the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act seriously. We have an Attorney-General who is very much concerned about these issues and who is doing an excellent job. 
This bill and its purpose represent democracy in action. It is an example of the people of Wanganui bringing forward an issue that they are feeling strongly about. Chester Borrows is listening to the people of Wanganui its mayor has been listening to the people and we now have a bill that as I understand it the public of Wanganui were 65 percent in favour of in a referendum. We are respecting the views of ordinary people in Wanganui and it is not difficult to see why when we hear Chester Borrows talk about some of the very real and very serious gang issues in this city. As Mr Borrows said just recently the  
Wanganui Chronicle 
 reported that the court heard that a man was killed with an axe over a red hoodie. There are serious gang issues of intimidation and the like and much worse in this case—a murder. What this bill does what its purpose is and what it achieves is the banning of insignia in a specified locality of a city. I come back to some of the things that Grant Robertson was saying. 
DAVID GARRETT (ACT) 
: 
 I have been invited by Labour to stand and state our position on this bill. I have to say that it is not easy to do because there has been considerable debate among our party among our supporters and among our caucus on our position on the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill—and for very good reason. I am afraid that as much as I like and respect my new colleague Mr Bridges I cannot agree that it is a good bill. It is not a good bill for a number of reasons. It is not a good bill because it does not clearly define what gang insignia is. It is not a good bill because it does not spell out exactly which areas in the Wanganui District Council district can be designated as gang-free zones. 
Before continuing I would like to take up Ms Turei’s point. I find it rather saddening to have to say for about the fourth or fifth time I have spoken in this House after Ms Turei that it would be very helpful if she actually read the bill that she was debating. She just stated that there is nothing in the bill that prevents the entire Wanganui District from being designated a specified place. I thought she had trained as a lawyer—I did so. If the member read clause 5(5) she would see that it specifically states: “A bylaw must not be made under subsection (1)(a) if the effect of the bylaw either by itself or in conjunction with other bylaws made under subsection (1)(a) would be that all the public places in the district are specified places.” So there is one point that is completely incorrect and it would be very very helpful if those who were going to debate this would actually read the bill. 
The second point that Ms Turei made that I am afraid I must take issue with and quite strongly—and I will explain why in a moment—is this absolute nonsense that the bill is aimed at Maori gangs. The bill specifically refers to a number of gangs including Hell’s Angels the Mothers and the Magogs. During the adjournment week I was contacted by text by one Shagger Gilmour—he was stupid enough to write it—of the Magog Motorcycle Club. He made some fairly carefully veiled threats to me over speeches I had made on this bill earlier. Shagger is a senior member of the Magog Motorcycle Club which despite his claims to the contrary is either entirely or at least mostly a white gang. He claimed although he would not name who the member was that a Maori had been a founder member for 32 years and he suggested that I in fact knew nothing about it and had never been there. I named a few of the members and he went a bit quiet. Hell’s Angels is also wholly or almost wholly a white gang. So the claim that this bill is aimed at Maori gangs is absolute and utter nonsense. Perhaps Ms Turei during her next call may wish to refer to Rooter Johnson Smasher Harris or whoever is a Maori and a member of those named gangs. 
But I get on to the guts of the bill. As I said I am afraid I cannot agree entirely with my colleague Mr Bridges or I am afraid with my colleague Mr Borrows. There are a number of things wrong with the bill. It will not make a noticeable difference to the criminal activities of gangs. It will not sadly make much difference to their presence in Wanganui. I have to say in all fairness that I agree with the point made by Ms Mackey and others—and again I feel rather bad about having to say this—in relation to the killing of the young fellow with the wrongly coloured hoodie: the bill is likely to cause and not to solve that kind of confusion. 
The bill is a measure of the desperation of the Wanganui community. They have had enough. As a society we have been frozen in the headlights like a possum or a deer for 30 years over what to do. Norm Kirk—well before Mr Hughes was born I suspect—said he was going to take the bikes off the bikies. It did not happen so we have had the problem since at least 1972. 
SUE MORONEY (Labour) 
: 
 That was a very interesting speech from David Garrett in the Committee stage of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. It was very difficult to work out whether the member was supporting or opposing clause 3 of the bill. I ask Mr Garrett to just indicate whether he opposes or supports it. 
David Garrett 
: Support. 
SUE MORONEY 
: Oh OK. When Mr Garrett spoke on the purpose of the bill he said it was a very bad bill. I thought that meant that he was going to oppose this particular clause—the purpose of the bill. I think he is quite right; the purpose is actually wrong. The intent is right but the purpose of the bill is quite wrong. It aims to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in one district. That just will not work. 
I congratulate Mr Borrows on bringing this bill forward because—and I think Mr Garrett hit the nail on the head—people in that town are very worried. They are quite desperate about this issue and Mr Borrows has made a reasonable attempt to bring something forward to actually address their concerns and their fears. But unfortunately what he is delivering to them will not work and it will not deal with the fears that they have about the behaviour of gangs in their district. In fact all it will do is drive the whole gang activity underground. It will create opportunities for gangs as they look for other ways of identifying themselves of recruiting and of going about their activities which we in this House all abhor. We do not want them to continue but this bill will actually make the situation somewhat worse. 
I know that a number of my colleagues have already addressed the issue but I am particularly worried about the aspect that Mr Borrows himself addressed and which Metiria Turei and Moana Mackey have spoken about: if gangs are prohibited in a defined area from displaying their insignia they will find other ways to identify themselves. Another way that they will find—and they already do this—is to just use a colour. 
Hon Member 
: They do it now; they do it already. 
SUE MORONEY 
: Exactly. That is what they do already. So I say to Mr Borrows that I am sorry but incidences like the example he gave about the young man being murdered because he was wearing the wrong colour in the wrong place at the wrong time and because there was gang activity going on around him are actually likely to increase under this bill. The gangs will not just go away. They will not just stop their activity because of this bill. Because of the way that they operate they will need to find a way to indicate who they are and where they stand and to continue their activity. They will do that— 
Sandra Goudie 
: Oh for goodness’ sake! 
SUE MORONEY 
: Well Sandra Goudie thinks that the gangs will go away. She believes that this will somehow stop gang activity. It is a nice thought—it is a really nice thought—but it is completely naive I am afraid. 
Gangs will wear colours and the wearing of a red hoodie—or a blue hoodie or any piece of clothing; it need not be a particular style of clothing—will take on even more significance if this bill is passed than what it already has. The colour will be what identifies that the gang is present and its activities are continuing. 
Sandra Goudie 
: Another one who hasn’t read the bill. 
SUE MORONEY 
: Well I actually have read the bill. Mrs Goudie might be interested to know that from time to time I sat on the Law and Order Committee while the submissions were being heard on this bill. I saw and heard a number of people who were very involved in the issue of gangs not because they were gang members themselves but because they were involved in policing gangs and trying to mitigate the effects of gangs on the community. Invariably they came forward to say that this is a nice idea but it will just not work. It is not that simple and in fact it might inadvertently drive up the wrong kinds of behaviours. 
The intent of this bill is correct but I am afraid that the purpose is not. 
Sandra Goudie 
: Read the purpose. 
SUE MORONEY 
: I will read the purpose out. Sandra Goudie seems to want it read out to her. It is very simple; it is one sentence not like a bedtime story: “The purpose of this Act is to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district.” It will not work. 
Hon TAU HENARE (National) 
: 
 I do not have too much time for the Mayor of Wanganui but I do have a lot of time for people who try to put things right in their own communities. When we talk about insignia we are talking about images. We are talking about images that intimidate people and that over a period of time have grown to be an image of intimidation. They are not only images of ownership—they mean a lot to the Mongrel Mob and to Black Power and any other gangs—they also have a meaning of intimidation to the general public. That is what the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill tries to stop: the intimidation and the scaring of the community. That is what this bill tries to do. I think that to say it is racist because other gangs may not be captured by this bill is a wee bit wrong. The image of a Hell’s Angels jacket or a Filthy Few jacket—the insignia of those is just as intimidating to some people as that of Black Power or the Mongrel Mob. 
Before we get too hung up about Black Power and the Mongrel Mob I make a humble plea to my cousins and my whanaunga—who undoubtedly are members of both the Mongrel Mob and Black Power—that it is time to give it up. 
Sue Moroney 
: This won’t make them give it up. 
Hon TAU HENARE 
: This bill will not make them give it up. A bill outlawing anti-Semitism will not make people give it up. A bill outlawing the Ku Klux Klan will not make the Ku Klux Klan go away. Those hand-wringing liberals over there want just to wave a wand and hope that it will all go away but there are people on this side of the House who live with it every day in their own whanau and in their own communities and have been trying for the last 30 40 or 50 years to do something. 
I remember when the storm troopers were alive and well in South Auckland where I grew up. My uncle Jim who was the last leader of the Maori Battalion and who brought them home could not understand why these young Maori people were wearing Nazi helmets with a swastika on the back. He could not understand it. My plea is that this is just a little step this is just a step by the community of Wanganui to say that it has had enough of being scared in its main street and it has had enough of being intimidated. That is my plea. It might be a humble plea and it might fall on deaf ears but the fact remains that if people do not try then we will not get anywhere. If people do not attempt things in their communities with Parliament’s assistance and Parliament’s say-so then we are all doomed for if we do not allow communities to govern themselves we surely cannot help them to govern themselves. That is all this bill does: it allows Wanganui—or Whanganui as the case may be—to try to deliver something for its own community with the help of the biggest court in the land the House of Representatives. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
: 
 I thank the member from across the floor for the impassioned speech. I have to first start by drawing out the commonality that existed there. Of course members on the Opposition side of the Chamber wish to see an end to gangs in our communities; there is no dispute there. Of course we wish to see an end to the intimidation that comes with gang membership in our community. I find it quite insulting when members on the other side of the Chamber try to create a division between members by claiming that we on this side do not know about the impact that gangs have. I find that insulting. I think there is awareness across all parts of this Chamber of the issues that gangs bring to our community. The sticking point is what will work and that is the bit I want to dwell on. 
But first before I go on to that I say to members that the member who represents ACT rose to his feet earlier and gave quite a harsh speech against the bill. He obviously has quite strong feelings—and I respect that particularly because they are in line with my views on the bill. But still Mr Garrett has clarified for us that ACT will in fact be voting in favour of this bill and he has done so already. I think that probably highlights to the rest of the Committee the sacrifice he is willing to make in exchange for the “three strikes” bill. We already know that the reason he has openly spoken out against this bill but has still chosen to vote for it is that the ACT Party does not wish to see its “three strikes” policy fall to the wayside and voting for this bill is the sacrifice that ACT is willing to make. The evidence for that is the 5-minute speech that Mr Garrett has already given. 
We have already spoken of the symbolic nature of this bill and some further evidence of that is the fact that this bill has not been adopted as a Government bill. If it was as sound as members across the other side of the Chamber claim it is why is it not a Government bill? If in fact we are going to see this measure brought in in a piecemeal way I look forward to seeing the member from Coromandel introduce a bill like this one for her region. I look forward also to seeing the member from Tauranga introduce a similar local bill. In fact I am very happy to speak to the local councils in those areas to see whether they would support those members in such moves. 
There has been a lot of crowing from the other side of the Chamber calling for us to read out the purpose of the bill. I am very happy to do that now—as Ms Goudie has pleaded with us to do. The purpose as stated in the bill is: “This Act is to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district.” Looking beyond that we have to ask why Mr Borrows has chosen to put that purpose into the bill. What is he trying to achieve? He is trying to change the impact that gangs have in his community. And what is that impact? It is intimidation. What does that intimidation come via? It is via crime violence and all of the things that stem from them in a community. So there is an underlying reason beyond just the simple purpose of the bill and that is what we are attempting to achieve through that purpose. 
But the patch alone actually bears no relationship to intimidation and crime; those are what a gang member does. A Brownie does not create fear in a community; what she wears does not create fear. If someone is wearing a gang patch it signifies to the people in the community that that person is involved with other things: that the person is involved in violence crime drug rings and other things. This bill does nothing to change the gang activity that creates the intimidation. We know it is the intimidation that Mr Borrows is trying to change; we have to acknowledge that. 
A gang patch is not the only signifier that someone belongs to a gang. We have already heard a discussion around colours. Colours are a major signifier that someone is a member of a gang. If Ms Goudie chose to visit my part of the community—Huntly for instance or Ngaruawahia where the Bloods and the Crips have a presence—she would find it is not a gang patch that people wear to signify their membership of a gang it is a colour. It is blue and it is red. I would like to ask Mr Borrows whether a secondary impact of this bill will be that colours will be banned. I anticipate that he will stand up and say that that is not what he intends. What will stop gangs from simply reverting to colours that also hold representation? Just to make the point again I say that if Ms Goudie was walking down the street in Coromandel I doubt whether she would be intimidated by any one person wearing a shade of blue in the street. Yet that is one of the colours that some gangs choose to wear. 
So what again is it that people would be intimidated by if someone happened to be wearing blue or—make a leap—a gang patch? It is more than the patch that is the problem and that is what members on this side of the Chamber have been talking about. What are we doing to tackle the underlying issues that cause people to fear gangs? This bill does not address that and that is what members on this side of the Chamber are calling for. 
We have also talked a little bit about the impact of tattoos and the fact that there has been some debate about the possible inclusion of tattoos in the bill. I respect the point that was made both by the member from Tauranga and also by Mr Borrows that a person who has tattoos—perhaps through previous membership of a gang—but then chooses not to affiliate with that gang deserves to have the right to move on and therefore tattoos should not be included. That again highlights a fact: a tattoo in itself does not actually represent the lifestyle that comes with gang membership and the member does not wish to punish those who choose to move on from the gang lifestyle. What we should be targeting is the lifestyle that comes with gang membership. 
Sandra Goudie 
: She’s not targeting anything! 
JACINDA ARDERN 
: I can see Ms Goudie is very confused by the depth of the argument that I am presenting. She does not quite understand where I am going with this because it is not symbolic and simple. It is not simple because we recognise that tackling gangs tackling crime and tackling the crime that gangs perpetrate are not simple things to deal with. 
Sandra Goudie 
: Hello! Get with the programme! 
JACINDA ARDERN 
: I know it is complex. I ask Ms Goudie to stay with me; she might actually learn something. 
We also need to ask whether if we are not to include tattoos in this bill that does in fact encourage tattoos being used as a means of substitution for patches. If I am no longer allowed to wear a patch when I am in certain parts of Wanganui—we are not sure which parts they are; not all parts I imagine but probably just the affluent parts—and I am not allowed to wear a T-shirt or a jacket on my back do I tattoo myself instead? Is that considered to be acceptable within the provisions of the bill? I find it hard to draw that distinction. I think this highlights how difficult the workability of this bill will be. 
Mr Borrows has also pointed out there has been a recent crime tragedy in his own community when an individual was attacked for wearing a colour in and around a gang area. Again we have touched on the issue of reverting to colours. This bill will encourage more incidents like that because soon gangs will not look for patches. They will look for the colours that represent patches which will put members of the community at greater risk and make them more vulnerable if they simply walk around in a colour that could be identified with any number of these gangs. We have to be honest about that. 
In fact I have seen some uncertainty from across the Chamber about this bill. That is not about its intentions. Again I must highlight to Mr Borrows that we support the intention of this bill. We support the fact that Wanganui is trying to tackle the issue but we believe that we have to go to the heart of the issue and that this bill does not do that. In fact some National members have raised that. Richard Worth in 2006 said that efforts to ban gang patches although well intentioned may in fact— 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 We are debating clause 3 the purpose clause. I raise two issues in connection with the purpose clause. The first is around the comments made by Chester Borrows about the intent and purpose behind the bill. He said that the bill was about addressing the intimidation that people in Wanganui were experiencing. Although I can certainly understand and sympathise with that point of view the problem is that the intimidation will not go away when the patch goes away. In the end this bill is as stated in the purpose clause about prohibiting the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district. If this bill is simply about prohibiting the display of gang insignia it will not achieve the intent that Mr Borrows mentioned. Intimidation comes from the people who are wearing the patches and the actions they undertake. 
Once again we see that the purpose of this bill is unfortunately cosmetic. It is about the clothes that people wear not the actions they take. I spoke earlier in the debate and quoted from a very interesting and very good speech made by the Hon Rodney Hide in the first reading. He said: “The concern that we have about gangs is not about what they wear; it is about what they do.” That was the view of the ACT Party when this bill was first debated— 
Charles Chauvel 
: When they were liberal. They were the liberal party! 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: That is right—when they were the liberal and principled liberal party. Mr Garrett spoke earlier in the debate and he appeared to say that the bill was bad. He identified a number of areas on which he agreed with speakers from the Labour Party but he confirmed for us later that ACT members will be supporting the bill which is an extraordinary situation and clearly quite different from where they were. They have done a deal on the “three strikes” bill. 
I return to the question of the purpose of the bill and the notion of addressing intimidation. In a sense not only does this bill fail that intent—in terms of not actually addressing intimidation because it does not and cannot address the actual behaviour and attitudes—but it also simply shifts that intimidation around the district. As the purpose clause states this bill is about prohibiting the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district. This bill will enable the Wanganui District Council to specify those places by by-law. We know that the places specified will be central city areas. The council will certainly look at those areas and possibly one or two other areas. The specified places will not be in suburbs like Castlecliff where there is a lot of gang tension. In effect the origins of the intimidation will not be addressed by this bill. 
The purpose clause is not only about specified places but about specified places in the Wanganui District. That is one of the great limitations of this bill. All it does is move the problem around rather than try to address the underlying causes behind it. The overall intent of Mr Borrows in bringing this bill to the House is one we can all understand. We know that he did it on behalf of the Wanganui District Council and that the people of Wanganui were interested. Obviously Labour voted for the bill to go the Law and Order Committee for the very reason that the people of Wanganui deserve to have their concerns heard. But now that the bill has reappeared before us the Labour Party is not able to support it because its intent and purpose will not be met. The bill is flawed and unfortunately offers false hope to the people of Wanganui—false hope that somehow or other this legislation will start to limit some of their problems. 
I do want to say some positive things about Wanganui. It is a great city. It is a thriving community and has a thriving art sector. It is a city that people should visit. It has a beautiful river and a beautiful environment that people can enjoy. It is difficult for me to stand here and talk about Wanganui in a negative light but that is in a sense what this bill is making us do. The people of Wanganui are being given false hope by a bill that is simply cosmetic and does not try to deal to the deep underlying issues of attitude and violence. 
Hon Dr Wayne Mapp 
: The people of Wanganui actually want this bill. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I tell Dr Mapp that the people of Wanganui want some solutions to the problem of gangs and they are being given false hope by a bill that simply will not do anything to address those underlying issues. It is a cosmetic response to a serious problem. Everybody in this House who has spoken in the second reading and Committee stage debates has said that this is a serious problem that needs a serious response. This bill is not that. 
Hon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour) 
: 
 I too will take a short call on the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill because I am deeply worried about it. I congratulate Chester Borrows the member for Whanganui on bringing it to the House. As the member for Rotorua no more I understand that the member is trying to fight the good fight for Wanganui and is convinced that the people of Wanganui want a solution to the problem. Well this is not the solution. This is flawed legislation and the lawyers on the other side know that. If the Minister of Police Judith Collins—I am pleased she is in the Chamber tonight—looked at the community safety order bill for Rotorua and at this bill she would start to see that people want a solution. I admire Mr Borrows for bringing this bill to the House but I am sure he knows—as I knew in Rotorua—that this bill will not solve the problem. 
The purpose of this bill is flawed to begin with. The purpose clause states: “The purpose … is to prohibit the display of gang insignia in specified places in the district.” Well how crazy. We in Rotorua also sat down to try to specify which bits of the district we were concerned about as I am sure that Mr Borrows has done with the Mayor of Wanganui. How do we solve the problem by saying that an insignia can be worn in one area but not in another? It is a bit like the Mayor of New York’s broken windows campaign which pushed everybody out of New York. Judges outside New York said that they hated the legislation because all the criminals of New York had moved out into their patches and they did not want that. They thought that the criminals could be better managed more centrally in New York. It is a very principled issue that we are trying to grapple with here tonight and this bill is absolutely flawed. 
As we all know there is a stigma attached to gang insignia. Our mentioning and naming of the gangs will make them so proud. The gangs will be emblazoned in the law. They will just change their names. We have the Killer Bees down in Wanganui now. I bet they are there and they will change their name to something else that we cannot predict as soon as they see their name mentioned in this legislation and we will be back within 5 years looking at this flawed and faulty legislation. I heard Simon Bridges say that 65 percent of Wanganui’s people want this bill. Of course they want solutions to community and social problems in their city. 
Simon Bridges 
: They believe that this is the solution. 
Hon STEVE CHADWICK 
: I say to Mr Bridges that I do not believe that they have even read the bill because it is so flawed. I do not believe that the member who has a good solid knowledge of the law could honestly put his hand across his heart and say that this is a fantastic bill. In fact if the member thought that then he would go to the Minister of Police and ask her to fix the situations in Rotorua Rodney Wellington Central and across the country. Chester Borrows could hold his head high and say that he had the oyster in the shell that got a bit of sand in it that he got the argument going nationally and that he actually fixed the problem of dysfunction in communities and in society for the rest of New Zealand. Good sincere attempts to fix things locally do not fix things nationally. 
What about the good people of Patea? Gangs will move to Patea because the going is not so tough there. Is that really what the region wants? The purpose of this bill is fundamentally flawed. It is a very sincere attempt but there is no way I can support this bill simply because it is faulty law. I am sure that the good Minister will be looking for solutions in towns throughout New Zealand. This is certainly not the right tool to use. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Before I call the next member I will make a little comment. From time to time this House gets a bit tied up over the appropriate name of members. The member in the chair is “Borrows” not “Burrows”. He has not asked me to do this but let us just try to get it right for his sake seeing as he is the member in the chair. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: My apologies. I would be the first to make that point myself. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: No that is fine. There is no great angst about this matter. 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 Every now and again in this Chamber along comes a mighty fine bill that looks thoroughly good and rational but it cannot work. The question is whether the assembled 122 members of Parliament in this Chamber will rise and say that the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill is a good idea but it will not work so they cannot pass it or whether they will hang their heads shift their eyes a little to one side and say that Chester Borrows is a good guy and Wanganui is a good city so we should pass this bill knowing that it will not work. That is really what is in front of us. We have a choice of either passing legislation that everyone knows will not work or not passing it. 
It seems to me that the appropriate thing and certainly the principled thing is to say to Chester Borrows and to the people of Wanganui: “Yes we understand that you guys have a gang problem. You don’t have it on your own but you have one and it’s a baddie. Yes we understand that members of the public are being intimidated. Yes we understand that the majority of the people of Wanganui want to have some action such as this legislation.” In fact if I was asked to support this legislation without understanding what it meant I would go for it myself. But we are lawmakers and our job is to understand or to try to understand as ordinary folk—I am no lawyer—the effect of the law and to make a judgment on behalf of the people of Wanganui and the people of New Zealand as the case may be as to whether it is good legislation. This is not good legislation. That does not mean that the member for Whanganui Chester Borrows should not have brought it to the House. I might well have done the same thing. I might well have tested the will of Parliament and I might well have taken this bill to the House to raise the issue of intimidation by gangs in Wanganui or elsewhere. I might well have done that. But there is a difference between putting a bill in front of the House and deciding that it will be part of our statute. There is a difference. 
In this case this legislation should not become part of our statute and there are myriad reasons why not. The first reason that comes to my mind is that gang names will become creatures of statute themselves. For goodness’ sake! Should we have the Mongrel Mob or Black Power written into our statute book? I do not think so. The second reason—the one that has been alluded to by earlier speakers and I think matters most of all—is that this legislation if passed will give false hope to the people of Wanganui because it will fail. Let us follow that through. When it does fail—and in a minute we will explore how it might fail—are the people of Wanganui not entitled to say: “What the hell did you pass that legislation for? We have had a look at the debates and at least some members of the House said it would not work. It didn’t work. You passed it. You set us up. We thought this legislation was going to achieve something and it turns out it didn’t.”? 
Let us explore why this legislation might not work. Again plenty of speakers have given lots of speeches on why this legislation might not work. I will make just one point. Let us imagine that this bill moves into law on any particular Tuesday. Come Wednesday a group of people who used to be members of a gang can put on their boy scout scarves and wander up and down the street without their insignia menacing people. If that does happen then no doubt someone will try to test the legislation in court. My best guess is that it will not catch them. We would then have a situation where the gang members who are supposed to be the bad guys have just put it up the authorities. They will have gone to court and won and we think this is a good idea? I do not think it is remotely good; I think it is an outrageous idea. 
I would prefer to take the approach of a National member of Parliament. Let us see what the Minister of Justice the Hon Simon Power— 
Sandra Goudie 
: Oh come on! Doesn’t the member realise they’ve got a liquor ban? Talk about liquor bans. What do they do with liquor bans? Exactly the same thing. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I will quote—for the “Orange Roughy”—what the Minister of Justice the Hon Simon Power had to say about National’s ideas to curb gang activity. Let us read a few of them out and see whether they might be more effective in Wanganui and elsewhere in dealing to the issue this bill seeks to deal to. Here is the first idea: “National is looking at changing the criminal laws to: Nominate gang membership as a factor in sentencing.” In other words membership of a gang will be taken into account—one assumes adversely—as a factor in sentencing. The second idea from National only 2 years ago was to “Strengthen the ability of the police to remove and storm gang fortifications.” The gang fortifications legislation was strengthened back in Muldoon’s times. The Minister of Justice is saying that it may need to be strengthened further. Does that sound like a good idea for the people of Wanganui? Let us take a look at the next idea: to “Make it easier for police to intercept gang communications.” This is an issue about privacy and there are some issues around that. But let us say it was easier for the police to intercept gang communications. The police could be ahead of the game much more readily than they would be otherwise. They would be able to get to the gangs’ point of congregation before the gangs did. 
Another idea was to make it “an offence to be a member of a criminal organisation.” There is a difference. If a gang is considered to be a criminal organisation then that in itself becomes an offence. That is an interesting idea. It is nothing to do with insignia and nothing to do with what people wear; it is so much more to do with how people behave and whether they cause strife to ordinary folk. “The key”—said National 2 years ago—“is to take the status the money and the power off the gangs.” The idea was to leave them their clothes but take off the status the power and the money. What does this bill do? It leaves the status. In fact it enhances it because it makes gang members creatures of statute. It leaves them with the money. It leaves them with the power including new enhanced powers to dick around the justice system to wear their boy scout scarves or whatever it is they choose to wear to cause confusion to lead to a court case and to win it and have the people of Wanganui say: “What the hell was all that about? Why did Parliament waste its time? Chester Borrows did a good job in taking it down there but the collective went the wrong way on it.” Well I am not going to be part of that collective. Labour will oppose this legislation. 
One other thing needs to be said about this legislation before I resume my seat. The ACT Party has behaved in a most unprincipled manner in this issue. The ACT Party sets itself up to be the party of principle. Well in my eyes it is not the party of principle any more. It used to be a party of principle. It had a principled stand on things that I disagreed with—many things that I disagreed with. Now I do not see that it has any principle at all. Its position earlier on when this legislation was introduced was liberal or libertarian or whatever one might expect from the ACT Party. But no it has itself a new hard line on law and order. David Garrett wants the “three strikes” legislation through and hopes he can get a deal with National—some sort of quid pro quo—so that ACT members can speak against this legislation but vote for it. That is exactly what Mr Garrett did. He spoke against the legislation but said he will vote for it. That is not what I would expect from the ACT Party. I never expect to agree with the ACT Party but I do expect consistency from it. That has been the nature of the ACT Party since its inception. It has been consistently wrong in my view but it has been consistent. Not any more. Now it has a situation where it will have some members voting in one direction and some members voting in another direction at least if the ACT members can arrange it and regulate themselves—these regulation busters—enough to get themselves voting in two different directions just because they think they will have an improved opportunity to get ACT’s “three strikes” legislation through. 
I am opposed to this bill but I congratulate the member on bringing it forward. He is doing what a local member should do and I think he has done it well. This legislation should not pass and the ACT Party needs to discover whether it ever wants to be a party of principle again. 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 E te Waha Korero o te Whare tena koe i tenei po. A kua tu ake e te Whare na runga i te ahuatanga o te taenga mai o te Kingi o te motu a Kingi Tuheitia ki waenganui i a tatau. Ehara i te mea he whanui nga korero engari ko taku he mihi ki a ia he mihi ki te kahui ariki kua tae mai ki roto i te Whare Paremata o te motu. Nau mai nau mai. Tena korua me koutou i hara mai i te po nei. Otira ki a tatau e noho atu nei kua tae mai a Kingi Tuheitia ka mihi ki a ia na runga i te ahuatanga koia tera e noho i runga i te ahurewa tapu o nga matua o nga tupuna. Huri noa i te Whare tena koutou tena koutou kia ora tatau. 
[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
[ 
Thank you Mr Chairman and greetings. To the House I rise to take this brief call to acknowledge King Tuheitia’s presence in our midst and to welcome him on your behalf into Parliament House of the land. Welcome welcome. Greetings to you two and to those of your retinue who came here tonight. To those of us seated about in the Chamber Kingi Tuheitia the reigning monarch of the King Movement and of those who carried that mantel in the past is before us. Greetings to you greetings to you and to us throughout the House 
.]  
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 3 be agreed to.  
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 3 agreed to. 
Clause 4 Interpretation 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 Clause 4 is the interpretation clause of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. There are a number of points that I want to raise as we work through the different interpretations in the bill. In this clause we will find the nub of some of the concerns that have been expressed on this side of the House. It is when we start to delve into the meaning of terms such as “gang” “gang insignia” and “public and specified place” that we actually find the difficulty for Labour in this bill. The difficulty is not the intention of the bill. As we have already discussed the intention is one that we can all sympathise with but in terms of the interpretation it is a difficult area for us. 
Let us start to work through the clause. The first area I will talk about is the meaning of “Council” and “district”. Here “Council” means “the Wanganui District Council” and “district” means “the district of the Wanganui District Council”. As we have already said this presents us with a difficulty. By using those interpretations of the meaning of “Council” and “district” the bill sets up a situation where we are making criminal law for a specific region. Making criminal law for a specific region is a very very difficult and dangerous area because all we do at that point is move a problem from district to district. As we have noted a number of times in this debate the Wanganui district does have a gang issue as do a number of other districts. 
If we are defining and interpreting “Council” and “district” to mean “the Wanganui District Council” what will the good people of Palmerston North be thinking tonight when they are listening to and watching this debate? 
Simon Bridges 
: A victory for democracy! 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: They will be wondering whether by this bill and by this interpretation Parliament is simply shifting the problem from Wanganui to Palmerston North. The gangs might even find their way to Tauranga to see Mr Bridges but a number of problems are created when we create laws like this. It pushes us as a Parliament towards the notion that we can make criminal law on a district by district basis. We have seen internationally that that creates difficulty: it moves crime around; it creates definitional problems about where boundaries are and where they are not. That shows that in the interpretation clause we are in fact creating a problem for ourselves. 
The next interpretation in the clause is around the meaning of “gang”. We have already heard tonight a number of contributions on this issue. In the bill at the moment we have a number of gangs named. As has already been said by my colleagues that is effectively a badge of honour for those gangs. We have already heard stories of people saying: “I want my gang to be in there. I want my gang to be named in the Act. That’s the badge of honour for me.” As my colleague Mr Hodgson who has recently resumed his seat said it is a very very bad thing to have a part of legislation that names a gang and puts a gang on our statute book. I do not want to see gangs on our statute book. I do not want to see gangs in our communities. This bill is effectively giving them that badge of honour by putting their names into the bill. 
Then we move to paragraph (b) which opens up the question of how the Wanganui District Council will define other organisations. In this paragraph “gang” also means “any other specified organisation association or group of persons identified in a bylaw made under section 5”. Well here we go. The Wanganui District Council is about to start deciding what is and what is not a gang. We will come to that when we get to clause 5 later in this debate. I think that is also an extremely dangerous path for the Wanganui District Council to be going down in trying to define what is a gang. We are already naming some of those gangs but we are also opening up a separate can of worms when we have to define which organisations are gangs. I think the Wanganui District Council is being placed in an incredibly difficult position by this bill. 
Sandra Goudie 
: It’s their bill! 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: It might well be the council’s bill I say to Mrs Goudie but that does not mean that we as a Parliament should accept every single idea that comes from a district council into this Parliament. Our job is to make law to stay here and to show some leadership. We welcomed this bill coming from the Wanganui District Council and referred it to the Law and Order Committee but now— 
Paul Quinn 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairman. I am not quite sure how a lecture on what our job is supposed to be has anything to do with clause 4 and the interpretations. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I do not need any assistance. I will overrule that point of order. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: The issue that we have here is that we could simply rubber-stamp every bill that came through from a district council or we could look at it and say that we understand the concerns that the people of Wanganui have and that we want to try to limit and prevent the intimidation they are feeling but that this is not the bill to do it. The definition of “gang” in this clause is not a part of the bill that will actually help people. “Gang” is defined here in a way that I think is problematic both because of the organisations named and also because of the people whom the district council is now able to name. I think that is very problematic. 
Then we move on to the interpretation of “gang insignia” and this really is the nub of the problem in this clause. 
Simon Bridges 
: A great definition. Brilliant. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I will read what it says: “gang insignia (a) means a sign symbol or representation commonly displayed to denote membership of an affiliation with or support for a gang; and (b) includes any item of clothing to which a sign symbol or representation referred to in paragraph (a) is attached”. I can understand why Simon Bridges is so supportive of this particular clause because it is a lawyer’s paradise to have this definition of “gang insignia”. What do we mean when we say “a sign symbol or representation commonly displayed to denote membership …”? What does that mean? Is that a scarf? Is that a T-shirt? Is it a particular coloured T-shirt? A red or a blue T-shirt? What is it? 
Moana Mackey 
: A bandanna. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: Is it a bandanna? These are the things that will then be debated and questioned in the courts giving yet more promotion to the gangs that are associated with some of those things. Fundamentally this clause gives a false hope that knowing and being able to say what is “gang insignia” will fix behaviour. In the end people will find ways around it. Once the courts define it as perhaps a bandanna or a scarf we will move on to another item of clothing another kind of badge or another colour. It will not help solve any of the problems to simply keep redefining “gang insignia”. Paragraph (b) of this definition of “gang insignia” refers to “any item of clothing to which a sign symbol or representation referred to in paragraph (a) is attached”. Well what will that be? 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: “I love Mum”. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: An “I love Mum” badge or a piece of embroidery. Whatever it is we will have an endless round of legal debate on what “gang insignia” actually means. It is not a suitable interpretation. 
Then we move on to the definition and interpretation of “public place”. What is a public place? According to the bill a public place “(a) means a place—(i) that is under the control of the Council; and (ii) that is open to or being used by the public whether or not there is a charge for admission;” a “road” or “any part of a public place.” That is very good. We know and we have defined what we are talking about. We are talking about areas in public but a public place is a specified place. That is the thing. It is a specified place that the district council decides on. That means that the district council will begin looking around. We know that they want to take people out of the central city. They do not want the image of gang patches in the central city. What does that mean? Once again we move the problem around. We shift the problem rather than actually trying to solve the problem. We know that the problem will be shifted to those suburbs where there are already gang issues. It will not be shifted to the rich areas of Wanganui; it will not be shifted to the central city. We can guarantee that a specified place under the Wanganui District Council will not include those areas such as Castlecliff where we know there are already gang problems. 
Right through this interpretation section we can see difficulties legal wrangles and problems that have been shifted from place to place. It is quite simply an unacceptable clause for us to be passing as a Parliament no matter the good intent of the member who has brought it before us. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I am happy to stand up and take a call on this interpretation clause. I agree with a lot of what my colleague Grant Robertson has been saying. I think he has outlined Labour’s concerns about this bill particularly well. I reiterate the concerns that Labour has. 
Simon Bridges 
: Then why is the member talking? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Well if National members think that this is such a great bill why do they not pick it up as a Government bill and make it apply to the whole country? 
Paul Quinn 
: We don’t need to; it’s before us. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: OK I have to explain something to Mr Paul Quinn: this applies only to Wanganui. Does the member realise that? My point is that if National members think that this is such a great bill why do they not pick it up and make it apply to the whole country? 
Paul Quinn 
: Because only Wanganui wants it. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I am looking forward to seeing the survey tabled from Mr Paul Quinn from which he takes the piece of information that only Wanganui wants this legislation. I suspect there is none because one of the concerns we have about this legislation is this passing of criminal law district by district. I do not think that that is an avenue we want to go down at all. 
I come to the definition of a public place. Another concern I have about this bill is that we are being asked to pass legislation when we do not know where it will apply in Wanganui. We do not know what the legislation will look like when the by-laws are passed. I congratulate the Law and Order Committee; I think they have done a good job of trying to come up with the best they can for a very bad bill. We do not know where that provision is going to apply. As it stands the bill basically provides carte blanche to put it anywhere. But I think I know where it will apply. This legislation will not apply in the poorest parts of Wanganui. It will not apply in the parts of Wanganui where people living there are citizens with the least power to oppose this kind of thing. It will apply to some of the wealthier areas—some of the nicer areas if you want to put it that way—in Wanganui. Once again we will end up with our poorest communities—those already struggling to deal with the realities of gang activity—having to put up with even more because this legislation is being driven into their area. I want to know how any member of this House can vote for that and say that that is an OK thing to do. 
We should be doing a lot more to eliminate the activities of gangs but pushing them into the poorest parts of our communities where they can cause even more trouble is not the way to do it: that is going to make it worse. How will local business people in the public areas where gangs are going to be pushed into feel when suddenly some business people in Wanganui are protected from having any gang members but they are not? How will those business people feel when they are not in an area that is covered by a by-law? One of the issues I have with this bill is that we are being asked to pass it without knowing the actual impact that it will have on Wanganui and its citizens. It is very very difficult for this Parliament to do that in an area of criminal law. 
I come to the definition of gang insignia. We have amendments on the Table that both do pretty much the same thing. They seek to take tattoos out of the definition of gang insignia. We appreciate the reasons why that provision has been put up. It is difficult— 
Paul Quinn 
: You people put it in there! 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Once again I might have to educate Mr Paul Quinn. On select committees Labour members like to work constructively to write the best law that we can—we do like to do that. We have decided that this is not a law in its entirety that we want to support but that does not mean that we will not be constructive at the select committee and try to come up with the best law that we can. 
I do not see the point of banning gang patches if we are not going to ban tattoos. That creates an incentive for people to go out and get their faces tattooed with their gang insignia because they can no longer wear it on their T-shirts. I want to know how that is a good outcome of this legislation. I think that if we were to talk to people they would probably tell us that they find a facial gang tattoo—an insignia—one of the most intimidating things. I think that that is more intimidating than a red or black T-shirt or a red or black bandanna. If this amendment goes through we are being asked to pass legislation that says to gang members that they are allowed to go into a certain area with no gang patches except for tattoos—they have to take their T-shirts jackets or whatever off but their tattoos are OK. So if people want a permanent gang patch that they cannot be made to take off they can go out and get a tattoo. I do not necessarily think that that is the kind of signal we want to send. 
In the end Labour is voting against this legislation because we do not think it is going to work at all anyway. But if we are looking at the details of these amendments I think that that is probably quite an unintended consequence that we should avoid. If we look at the definition of gang as my colleague has already pointed out we see that it is a badge of honour to be put up—I will not take much longer at all if my call is extended Mr Chairperson— 
Paul Quinn 
: Promise? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: —unless Mr Paul Quinn keeps interjecting on me and then I am going to take another 5 minutes after this. He has so much to say. Maybe Mr Quinn might want to stand on his feet and take a call if he is allowed to—if his whips will let him. 
Paul Quinn 
: I can’t get in; you’re taking up all the time. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: No he cannot get up. He has been told to stay in his seat and not to say anything. His whips are saying “Your mouth is working for the Opposition; please just stay quiet.” 
If we briefly come back to the legislation we see that— 
Paul Quinn 
: Why don’t you sit down and give us a chance? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: —settle down Mr Quinn—it is a badge of honour to be considered in this respect. These gang names are merely names but if we think that the only things that matter to gangs are their names and their patches then we will never come to terms with gang activity in this area. 
I am really surprised the ACT Party is voting for this part of the bill. Surely after everything that Rodney Hide and Heather Roy said at the time of the first reading of this bill this is really where the rubber hits the road for ACT. Do the ACT members who have voted for this legislation all the way through this Committee stage really truly believe that this is going to change anything? ACT is the law and order party—it is tough on law and order so we would think it would be interested in a definition of gangs gang insignia and areas gangs will be banned from. Does the ACT Party really believe that this bill will make a difference? As my colleague Pete Hodgson pointed out earlier there is the bigger issue of whether a libertarian party really believes that people should be told they cannot wear a particular T-shirt. We would think given some of the things ACT members were saying during the Electoral Finance Act debate that that would be something they were against. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: Or a yellow jacket. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Or a yellow jacket for example. Do they really think that banning colours or anything that might be construed as a gang thing is something the ACT Party should be supporting? I am very interested to hear what the member Roger Douglas has to say on this issue because it seems to me to go against everything that party has always claimed that it stands for but apparently—clearly—does not. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: Only for some. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: That is quite correct; as my colleague says only for some. I think we need to be very careful about this legislation. It is full of loopholes—absolutely full of loopholes. If the bill does not have perverse outcomes it will be completely avoided by the people we are deliberately trying to catch with it. We have other legislation on the statute book. The proceeds of crime legislation should do far far more to tackle gangs than this ever will. Why is that not being advanced? 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
 I have an amendment to clause 4 in my name that looks to explicitly ensure that tattoos are not included in the definition of gang insignia. I see that Chester Borrows has a Supplementary Order Paper doing the same thing and I expect that whichever of them goes first will pass. 
I am pleased that Mr Borrows has put forward that Supplementary Order Paper because we have been particularly concerned that by not excluding tattoos from the definition of gang insignia Maori in particular who have a tradition—an ancient thousand-year history—of ta moko will be targeted unjustly by the council and the police through the use of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. 
This is an area where I find Labour’s position on the bill difficult to understand. Notwithstanding that Labour members have said they are opposing the legislation if we look at the select committee report we see that there is no indication whatsoever that Labour opposes it. The select committee included New Zealand First Labour and National members. In particular Labour and New Zealand First members were concerned to make sure that tattoos were included in the definition of gang insignia thereby increasing the risk of prejudice and discrimination particularly against Maori. It would be nice to get some clarity from Labour about what its actual position is on this issue because it is not clear from the bill and it is a bit difficult to get a sense of where that party is really going. 
There is a real issue here about the definition of a public place. I said earlier that nothing prevents a council essentially from being able to declare the entirety of the Wanganui district area a specified place and therefore as subject to this law. Mr Garrett pointed to a provision in clause 5—which I am sure we will get to—that states that the council is not supposed to do that but nothing actually stops it from effectively doing it. 
The definition of a public place includes any area that is under the control of the council whether or not that area is being used or is open to being used by the public. The definition in clause 4 also includes “a road whether or not the road is under the control of the Council;”. The Wanganui district area is a very large area and a particularly rural area so there will be lots and lots of places that the council will not necessarily know about. The council may provide a set of rules that essentially covers the main thoroughfares of the city and the region—the areas that are most likely to be populated—miss out just a few individual roads but be covered by the provisions of this bill and not therefore breach clause 5 as Mr Garrett read out. But the council would have effectively closed off the entire district. 
There is no indication in the legislation of the consequences for the council if it were to close off the entire district. The bill does not state which parts of the council rules would then not be in effect or whether all of the rules that breach that provision would not then be valid. It does not state that. It does not state how the determination is to be made or who will make it. I know the making of by-laws is restricted to some extent and there are controls around that but nothing in this legislation indicates what they are or what the sanctions might be. So my position—that this bill will allow the Wanganui District Council to effectively close off the entire region and make it subject to this legislation—still stands because there is nothing that will prevent the council from doing so in a practical or practicable way. 
That is a very serious concern especially when it is placed alongside the power of the police to stop and search vehicles. The provisions in the main are about the display of gang insignia in a public place—a public display—so we can understand the logic behind the provision. We might disagree with it but we can understand the reasoning behind it. But when we start talking about the police being able to stop and search the cars of people who may or may not be displaying gang insignia inside the car which is a private place—it is not a public place that is subject to the council rules—we ask then where in the rules that power to stop cars and search people for gang insignia makes sense given that the purpose is to stop the display of gang insignia in a public place. 
A car is not a public place. The police do not have to know that there is a display of gang insignia in a public place by a person who is currently in a car; they have only to suspect that display. So they can stop the car on any grounds and what they will actually do in practice—and what Maori know they will do in practice—is stop a car full of Maori. It does not matter what those Maori have been doing—[ 
Interruption 
]—and Paul Quinn knows that that will be the case. 
Paul Quinn 
: You can call me Paul. 
METIRIA TUREI 
: Well I have to use the member’s proper name; I am just trying to be well-behaved. The member knows that that will be the case. The Maori members in this House know that that will be the case. The police will simply stop every car that has a significant number of Maori people in it using this provision in order to search them. The police do not have to have reasonable cause to stop and search the car; they have only to suspect that someone may or may not be wearing gang insignia which is a very broad description. There is the kind of obvious gang insignia we all think about but what about something like a swastika for example which actually has multiple uses and multiple meanings? I understand that for a Hindu a swastika is a symbol of love harmony intelligence and strength. But if the council decides that a swastika as a single symbol is a gang insignia then anybody can be stopped in his or her car by the police because the police have decided they want to search that car for a swastika. 
Members might want to suggest that perhaps it would be only skinny bald guys with big boots who have swastikas. Buddhists do not have a lot of hair. There is just no way that a rule can be set around the display of these things that makes any practical sense that is properly enforceable and that is sufficiently constrained so the rule actually meets its purpose. That is where this bill fails the process of making good law that is enforceable that has a sound basis and that we know will be enforced in a way that makes sense for the community and deals with the issues in it. 
Of course gang violence is a big issue but this bill as we have heard will not do anything about it. What it does do which is even worse is create a great deal of uncertainty in the community about colours which will lead potentially to a great deal more violence around the wearing of colours. It gives the council enormous powers to outlaw symbols and make their wearing a criminal offence. Some symbols are ancient symbols that have multiple levels of meaning but the council’s actions will be based on its own prejudiced views about what those symbols might mean and about the people who carry them. 
The bill gives the police extraordinary power which they do not have anywhere else in the country or even under existing criminal law to stop and search people in a car whom they suspect potentially of displaying gang insignia thus giving the police the power to search that car and those people for a great deal of other kinds of things justly or unjustly. 
A large number of court cases will come out of the use of that power in particular because it is such a significant extension of the police powers of search without warrant. I know that Mr Borrows has a lot of experience in the police and in the law. He understands how these things are put out in practice. I am sure he knows that police are out there who will stop and search cars full of Maori simply because they can and in the Wanganui area this bill will make it much much easier for that to happen. It will lead to perfectly ordinary probably Maori men who would otherwise be entirely law abiding becoming extremely frustrated and angry with the police and being subject to extraordinary police harassment for no reason other than that they might be wearing a red jumper a black jumper or a yellow jumper inside a car full of other Maori wearing other kinds of coloured clothes. 
That is not the kind of law this Parliament should be passing; it is very bad law and very unenforceable law. It will cause enormous problems in the community itself and create higher levels of violence between communities and higher levels of prejudice thereby increasing police harassment. I urge this Committee to oppose this legislation for all of those reasons and for the other reasons we have heard today. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) 
: 
 Moana Mackey wants to know whether the ACT Party truly believes that the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill will make a difference. The answer is a categorical yes. If we did not believe that this bill would make a difference we would not be supporting it and I would not be supporting it. 
Moana Mackey talked about ACT as being a libertarian party. She may not realise that there is a party called Libertarianz which stood at the last election. We are not that party; we are the ACT Party. We are a party of choice; we stand for choice. In this case the ACT Party will be supporting a bill put forward by the people of Wanganui. They want this bill and that is one of the reasons we have considered it and will be supporting it. I say to the sponsor Mr Borrows that if 58 members of the National Party vote for this bill it will be passed into law. 
What did Mr Hodgson have to say? He said that the ACT Party is consistent. It might be “consistently wrong” in Mr Hodgson’s words but at least it is consistent. Well I ask Mr Hodgson to cast his mind back to last month. He and his party voted to repeal the Electoral Finance Act a law that was passed by the Labour Government despite widespread opposition from people throughout this country. What did Labour do less than 15 months after it had passed that Act into law? It voted for its repeal. I tell Mr Hodgson that that is a very smart move. He talked about the ACT Party being consistent; well if any party has been inconsistent on an issue in the last 15 months it has been his party. Thank you. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 There is no need to look around before giving the call Mr Chair; no one else is jumping to his or her feet. Mr Quinn over there has been very vocal but apparently is not confident enough to stand up and give a speech in this Chamber and actually put his words on the record. 
That was a very very interesting speech from Mr Boscawen. It was basically the exact opposite of the speech that his colleague David Garrett gave on the purpose clause of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. Mr Garrett said that this was a bad bill and it would not do anything. 
Paul Quinn 
: He is supporting it. He said he was voting for it. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: He did not actually say in his speech that he was supporting it. We had to ask him afterwards whether he meant he was supporting it. He said yes but members should watch this space. Mr Garrett pointed out how bad this bill was. For Mr Boscawen to now come to the Chamber and say that ACT thoroughly supports this bill and would not be voting for it if it did not totally support it very much contradicts what his colleague said. I suggest that maybe they need to talk to each other a little more before they come to the Chamber and give their position to the Committee. They have shown the complete inner turmoil within the ACT Party about this legislation. The five ACT MPs in this Chamber cannot even get it right so how will they get it right amongst their members across the country? We know that the members across the country are writing to the five ACT Party members and telling them that they do not want them to vote for this bill and that they will leave the ACT Party if they vote for it. 
I will respond to some questions put by my Green colleague Metiria Turei about Labour’s position on this legislation. I apologise for perhaps not being clear and not clearly outlining our position. Labour will not be supporting the amendments put up by Ms Turei and Mr Borrows for the reasons outlined in the commentary on the bill: “We are concerned that this might cause an increase in the use of tattoos by gang members to intimidate the public. We do not consider that every tattoo should be covered by this legislation; it should capture only those that denote membership of affiliation with or support for a gang.” We think this is a stupid bill and we will not be voting for it. 
The Labour members of the Law and Order Committee worked constructively and worked very hard to try to make a very bad bill as good as it could be. The people of Wanganui feel very strongly about this bill. It went to a select committee. We all have an obligation to work as hard as we can at the select committee which of course is where a lot of real work takes place and where a lot of the silly antics that we see all the time on TV do not happen. We feel that if we are going to ban gang insignia then we really cannot leave out tattoos otherwise that would tell someone to take off their T-shirt and get a facial tattoo because a tattoo is the one type of gang insignia that is not covered by this bill. We stand by that. 
We do not think this bill will work at all. We do not think it should pass. We know now that Mr John Boscawen thinks that this bill is great that the ACT Party should support it and that it fits in. I am sorry that I called his party “libertarian”; I meant “liberal”. It was a slip of the tongue although I have heard many ACT Party members call themselves libertarians but that is another issue. We know on the record that John Boscawen absolutely thinks this is a great bill. He thinks it is wonderful and fantastic. He now needs to have a conversation with his colleague Mr Garrett who said exactly the opposite about this legislation. Mr Garrett of course was the star law and order candidate— 
Paul Quinn 
: You said that before. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I tell Mr Quinn to take a call. He should stop sitting there chipping away. He should tell his whips that he wants to take a call. He should stand up and say something rather than just sitting there and yelling at everyone. 
Mr Garrett has just come to the Chamber to talk to Mr Boscawen. They can have a little korero—a tête-à-tête kanohi ki te kanohi—over there and actually find out what the ACT Party’s position is. 
I stood to respond to the question raised by Metiria Turei. The answer is no. Labour members will not be supporting either amendment but more important we absolutely will not be supporting this bill. We do not think that it should go ahead. We think that if every member of this House was allowed to vote with his or her conscience was allowed to vote the way that he or she believes and was not being mustered and forced to vote for it like the ACT Party is then this very bad bill would not pass. 
The passing of this legislation will not make anyone safer. Mr Borrows raised the issue of a young man who was murdered for wearing a red T-shirt. Of course as Ms Turei pointed out in her speech this bill may make the situation worse. There may be more people out there wearing red T-shirts because they cannot wear gang insignia. How will people who want to go out and cause those people harm know whether the person wearing a red T-shirt is a gang member who cannot wear his or her insignia or is just someone wearing a red T-shirt? We may see more of these senseless and tragic accidents. 
Meanwhile this bill is a smokescreen for a Government that is not doing anything about gangs. It wants to be able to say: “We passed this bill. Is that not a great thing?”. But it is not passing the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill which is languishing on the Order Paper. It is not doing anything else that will make a difference in the battle against gangs. This bill is nothing but a smokescreen and I reiterate that Labour will be opposing it. Who knows what ACT is doing? 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 12 in the name of Chester Borrows to clause 4 be agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 73 
New Zealand National 58; Green Party 9; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 44 
New Zealand Labour 43; Progressive 1. 
Amendment agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: There is an amendment in the name of Metiria Turei but it is out of order because in substance it is the same as the amendment we have just dealt with. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 4 as amended be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Clause 4 as amended agreed to. 
Clause 5 Power to make bylaws designating specified places or gangs 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
 I might just seek a clarification quickly as part of this call. We are dealing with clause 5 and then clause 5A separately? Is that right? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Can I respond to that. There will be several questions under clauses 5A 5B 5C etc. They are separate clauses and there will be separate debates. 
METIRIA TUREI 
: Thank you Mr Chair. I would like to reiterate our concern that the council has a great deal of power under the bylaw-making powers in clause 5. The council does have some guidelines I guess over how it might identify or define a gang for the purpose of the legislation. There have to be some kinds of general characteristics such as a common name or identifying signs symbols or representations and the gang’s members associates or supporters must collectively promote encourage or engage in a pattern of criminal activity. I think there are some real legal issues there relating to how that is going to be defined. 
I know that the bill itself identifies some gangs already including the Hell’s Angels. It is worth noting to the Committee that in the US the Hell’s Angels took a case against a very similar legal provision that tried to ban them as a criminal gang. My understanding of the outcome was that the Hell’s Angels argued that they were a motorcycle club could prove they were a motorcycle club and could not as a club be held responsible for the criminal activity of individuals within that club. And in the US—which is not exactly an easy place to deal with these issues—the Hell’s Angels won their case. They were not able to be persecuted—as they might put it—by that legislation. 
Hon Judith Collins 
: Well they need to be. 
METIRIA TUREI 
: Judith Collins can chatter away on the side. She is not making a reasonable contribution to this debate on legislation that will cause some very serious restrictions to the movement of citizens particularly through the Wanganui District. I know she can chatter away all she likes but it would be quite useful to allow the debate to proceed on some kind of sensible line as opposed to the nattering that is going on. 
There are some real issues about whether the legal provisions within this bill are sufficiently enforceable and whether we can be certain that the council can make decisions about identifying gangs not already listed—I know that the Hell’s Angels are already listed—and not suffer from considerable costs from taking action against organisations that it may want to identify as criminal gangs but in respect of which it may find itself in court fighting very lengthy and very expensive battles. 
Hon Judith Collins 
: Good! 
METIRIA TUREI 
: I am sure that Judith Collins would not mind paying for those expensive battles but I do not think that the people of the Wanganui District would be particularly happy about paying vast sums of money to battle these kinds of provisions in the courts. 
This is where the bill I think fails. It fails because it does not make any difference to what gangs actually do but only to how they look. Again I say it is very poorly thought out legislation in that respect because it does not provide any certainty to the council—much less certainty than most other laws that are passed—and it does some give some room for well-resourced organisations to fight this legislation in the courts forcing the council to spend vast quantities of ratepayers’ money on defending these provisions. If the provisions were better thought-out if they were narrower and if the intention of the council was to deal with behaviour which is more certain and could be more readily dealt with under the existing criminal law then perhaps there would not be this kind of risk for the Wanganui District ratepayers. But as it is this legislation provides a significant risk to them. 
I again reiterate that the bylaw-making powers provide a loophole for the council so much so that despite the provision of clause 5(5) it is possible for the council to effectively rule the entire district as coming under this legislation thereby causing very severe restrictions on movement for people who live in that area—people who are not at all part of any kind of criminal organisation and have no involvement in such an organisation. 
PAUL QUINN (National) 
: 
 It is indeed a pleasure to stand here to support and acknowledge the outstanding work that my colleague and friend Chester Borrows has done to get this very worthwhile bill before this Committee of the whole House through his very hard work with his community in Wanganui. I also want to reflect—and we are talking about clause 5— 
Hon Shane Jones 
: No wrong clause. 
PAUL QUINN 
: —clause 5—that I am bewildered because speaker after speaker from the Opposition has spent most of his or her time addressing us on the basis that this is bad law. My response to that is that firstly those members would know because they have had 9 years of drafting bad law. At the top of that list was of course the Electoral Finance Act and most of them gave us a “mea maxima culpa”. But also there is the mere fact of their contradictions. Earlier we heard about contradictions from Moana Mackey. When I look at the members of the Law and Order Committee who were responsible for reporting this clause 5 back to the House I see that three of them were Labour members and that one was a New Zealand First member. I would have thought that that made a majority on the committee. 
Clause 5 has come back to the House with the full support of the select committee including the changes made to the definition and interpretation of “insignia” “gangs” and all of that yet members opposite spend all night saying they are against it. They should make up their minds. Moana Mackey should not give us a lecture on a contradiction in terms. I am bewildered about this. A mythical character called Martin Gallagher was one of the members on the Law and Order Committee. I have never actually met him but apparently he was an outstanding servant of this House. But there are other members who are still here. Darren Hughes sits amongst us. He gave his stamp of approval to this very worthwhile bill that is now in its Committee stage. He gave it full support yet what do Labour members say now? They say they are against it. Talk about making up one’s mind! Labour members have no idea where they are. 
Clause 5 gives effect to the purpose of this bill. I point out clause 5(5) to Tariana Turia and the Green Party. It seems to me that this is another case of someone who has not read the bill given her previous—I would not call them speeches—comments that this is carte blanche licence to block out gangs from the whole of Wanganui. If members read the provision very carefully and I will read it to them so that they understand it fully it states that the effect of the by-law—[ 
Interruption 
] I know that Chris Hipkins is having trouble with the English language and that he struggles with it from time to time— 
Grant Robertson 
: Take lessons from that member! 
PAUL QUINN 
: I thank Grant Robertson for helping his colleague out. I know that it is all a bit beyond him and that he is still bewildered about being in this Chamber. 
Aaron Gilmore 
: That’s why we need literacy and numeracy in schools. 
PAUL QUINN 
: Yes but let me read this provision. The member probably cannot lip-read so I will have to speak up so members can hear. Clause 5(5) states: “A bylaw must not be made … if the effect of the bylaw either by itself or in conjunction with other bylaws made under subsection (1)(a) would be that all the public places in the district are specified places.” So the law states that one cannot carte blanche wipe out the whole town. I am happy to give the Green Party members a lesson in how to read and write the law but it may take a little longer than we have time for. 
Much of what we have heard tonight has been a lot of hogwash— 
Aaron Gilmore 
: Rhetoric! 
PAUL QUINN 
: —rhetoric—opposing for the sake for opposing.The simple fact is that we hear time and time again from the Opposition about consultation. I just want to take the members to another subclause of clause 5 subclause (2A) in terms of having to go through a consultation process. The members on the opposite side of the Chamber should be falling over themselves at the lengths that Chester Borrows has gone through to make sure that proper process is followed when these sorts of measures are being considered and full consultation— 
Chris Hipkins 
: Ha ha! 
PAUL QUINN 
: Would the member like a copy of the Local Government Act? No? So it is a very democratic process. This is exactly the sort of measure you call for all the time: “Democracy! We want to see democracy!”. The people of Wanganui have called for this and you now want to deny them because you know better. I say to you that you should come down from the ivory tower and get down to where the people are— 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am sure the member opposite as he is educating us needs to be educated that you are being brought into the debate and I am sure that you do know better. He implies that you do not. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: It was hardly necessary to emphasise that. The member just needs to mind his pronouns. I know he is enthusiastic. 
PAUL QUINN 
: I am sorry to have brought you into the debate Mr Chairperson. As I was saying time and time again we have had the need for consultation. The people of Wanganui want this to happen and we are following their wishes. At the same time it will not be carte blanche. It will not bring everyone into the debate and cause everyone to be wiped off the street because a process is set out in here and it has to be gone through in terms of the legislation. We have absolute faith in terms of the discretionary powers that allow the Wanganui District Council to do the job that its people want it to do. But if those members are happy to deny them that then let it be on their heads—be it on their heads. 
I now move on to talk about gangs as they are referred to in clause 5(1)(b) “for the purposes of this Act”. We have heard a lot about gangs and race and that this is a racist bill. Again I point out to my friends and colleagues in the Opposition the definition of gangs—some of which are European but it is not an exclusive list. If the members read paragraph (b) of clause 5(1) they will see that it states any “organisation association or group of persons”. So members can rest assured that it is about people and it is about making sure the proper process is followed because in the end we want to reduce crime. I know that the members on the opposite side of the Chamber do not want to reduce crime. But this bill is just one measure in the suite of processes that we are offering the people and the police to be able to deal with the gang problem. The irony of it all is that we sit here repeatedly being lectured about gangs by the list member from up north somewhere Mr Jones who lambastes us all and does nothing about it just like the rest of his party in the last 9 years. They did nothing about the problem. National is bringing in a suite of instruments a suite of measures and addressing the problem right from the start. Clause 5 is just one of these measures. Thank you Mr Chairman. 
Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) 
: 
 Kia ora tatou. Greetings Mr Chair. I accept the wisdom that lies behind your ruling that I should wait for a turn and that we should suffer the foolishness of Mr Quinn. I now know that that man Mr Quinn is related to Keith Quinn because when he stood and gave his delivery he reminded me of some of the lesser-known speakers in the Maori world. The tauparapara goes on and on. It disappears into the valleys covered with mist into the blackberry into the trees where the turehu are before it finally gets to the point. There was no point—no point whatsoever—in Mr Quinn’s speech. Fortunately he ran out of things to say before the bell was rung. Mr Quinn came into this House with so much promise until a small level of due diligence revealed he has single-handedly destroyed Maori rugby. That is why we have so many people being driven to the gangs—because that option has been taken from them. 
Paul Quinn 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I fail to see what Maori rugby and sports activities have to do with clause 5. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: There is no need for this point of order. Let us address the bill thank you. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: On page 5 if that member had taken the time to look for just a short period of what is generally just a wasted day on his part he would see that the Labour members believe that the opportunity should be taken to consider the related legislation in South Australia and that the bill should not proceed until such an evaluation has taken place. 
We know—and this is with particular reference to clause 5—that Simon Power has been to South Australia. He sought an audience with and was invited to meet three or four middling bureaucrats. He eventually got—during a coffee break I am told with stale wine—a very short meeting with those who count in that particular state. He would have been told that there are many practical challenges in implementing the statute that South Australia has on its statute book yet we see a similar provision in clause 5. 
I acknowledge that the council is doing the best it can and I acknowledge that I have quite a bit of time for Chester Borrows. He has brought this bill forward but he needs to make sure that his old colleagues members of the police force from Wanganui when implementing this legislation do not lose paperwork or hand paperwork containing the names and addresses of enforcement officers to the very same gang that they are trying to chase out of town. Those officers will be cursed with the task of trying to breathe life into the diseased limb otherwise known as clause 5 of the ailing body otherwise known as this foolish legislation. 
Clause 5(1) states: “The Council may from time to time make bylaws … identifying an organisation … as a gang.” But of course the definition of a gang is riddled with difficulties—there are signs symbols and representations. Gang members may turn up with red hoodies or handkerchiefs as I have said to my whanaunga Tau Henare. People from Moerewa may be having a holiday in Ngawha or they may be digging kumara in Kaipara. They need only take a red handkerchief red toothpaste or be wearing yellow. If there ever was a dreadful term and a debasement of the Maori language it lies with the notion of gangs being tribesmen. They are not tribesmen. They are corrupt. They are weak. They prey on our children. They abuse their women. But unfortunately this bill will not protect anyone. 
According to clause 5 this bill may designate “any public place as a specified place for the purposes of this Act:” I can see great debates already emerging in the courts as the Treaty lawyers move from one trough to another trying to breathe life into this and wondering whether a marae or a bit of land under section 439 of the Maori Affairs Act a trust or some other sort of reserved land that Maori might have influence over is a public place. Paul Quinn understands that. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: No. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: No—he does. He understands that space and place are related—and both are absent from his mind as is evident every time he stands and talks. 
But let us bring some seriousness back to this debate. Let us move away from Paul Quinn who has demonstrated that the more he talks the sooner and the quicker the people in his party will realise that they have to pay a great deal more attention to their party list compilation next time around. It is a bit like Mr Garrett. He is entitled to bring his views to this House but the more he speaks about this bill the sooner we will see their disappearance which will be a great thing for this House and a great thing for this country. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: And a yellow jacket. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: Yes well there is a point: was Rodney Hide a gangster by dint of his clothing and by the fact that he has decided to buff up? Was it an act of gangsterism to drop that woman on her head during the dancing competition and did he derive much pleasure from that? Well that is for another discussion. 
The reality of the matter is that during the course of implementing this failing defective foul piece of legislation there will be an opportunity to review the by-laws. But members should think about the costs and about the people who will be unfortunately and unwittingly caught up in this short-sighted but nevertheless well-intentioned attempt to stamp out gangs. Costs will go up. 
Hon Members 
: Ha ha! 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: It is well intentioned. It is short-sighted. It is unlikely to work. OK I accept that people will be required to go around and put up notices saying that people cannot have a gang there and the council will need to hire security officers. That will be a new stream of jobs in Wanganui. The difficulty however with that is that just as dogs visit lamp posts so the gangs will visit a similar level of attention on those posts. They will need to be replaced and it will soon become evident that this is not a bill that once enacted can actually be turned into effective law. 
The reason that the bill cannot be turned into effective law—quite apart from its flaws—is that it has been born out of a dangerous compromise. In order for the National-led Government to continue to enjoy the attention and support of the ACT Party it will have to vote according to the ACT Party for the successful passage of the “three strikes and you’re out” legislation. 
Hon Member 
: No no. 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: No Rodney Hide stood and said that he knew he had abandoned his principles—although he had very few of them to start off with—and he knew that he had said very strong things but he is now cuddling up under the National Party korowai with his friends from the Maori Party. The funny thing about the ACT Party members which is why they like this bill is that they are busily trying to criminalise Maori youth. The Maori Party for reasons best known only to its leaders is trying to privatise the misery of Maori youth through having Maori run private prisons. Neither will work. National is in the middle manipulating both of them. 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Oh you don’t want Maori to run things? 
Hon SHANE JONES 
: Tau Henare had his chance in 1996. He is my whanaunga. He is up to tahi rua toru wha—wha parties. Of course we know what the Maori word “wha” means—far too many e Tau. He has had his chance e hoa. 
Let us come back to other reasons why this bill will not work. Will the signposts be bilingual? If they say “Wanganui” will it have an “h” in it? It is highly unlikely. I can see Michael Laws trading on this bill as evidence that he is fit to be the mayor of the potential mega-city of Auckland. But he is using this bill for short-term triumphalism. The gangs will simply change their attire get their whanaunga who are reasonable lawyers and—as Tariana has already said—pay not a blind bit of notice to this bill and the eventual Act. Of course the other foolish thing members opposite think this bill will do is to actually change behaviour. All the gangs have to do tonight is to look at Paul Quinn; they do not need to change their behaviour. In fact it is like a cracked mirror: part of the refraction actually shows a bit of them. No it will never ever work. 
Why do we not agree with this bill? It is not that we are against the Wanganui District Council and it is not that we are against Michael Laws although a number of us might think that his pollution on the airways is at an insufferable level. It is because the bill is poorly conceived and is written in a flawed way and at the end of the day it will not work—it will not. Of course what will happen for New Plymouth and Palmerston North is the gangs that are really troublemakers will simply move out of Wanganui and take their foul deeds and their vicious ways to other nearby cities. That is why this legislation will never work. 
DAVID GARRETT (ACT) 
: 
 I came to Parliament believing in the parliamentary process that the executive did not in fact—as the cynics say—dictate everything and that the debate in this Chamber was actually meaningful. Since I have been here people both inside the Chamber and outside have laughed at that naivety and told me not to be silly that I was right in the first place and it was all irrelevant and that what happened here was all hot air and did not much matter. Well who would have thought it? I have discovered that the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill has proved that the parliamentary process—and by the parliamentary process I mean this House—is relevant. I have been listening not just to this debate but to the earlier debates and I have spoken in all of them and sensible things are coming from almost all sides of the Chamber. 
There are lots of arguments both for and against this legislation that have merit. On one hand the people of Wanganui have clearly indicated their desire for this bill—more than 65 percent of them—and that is worthy of respect. I believe that while I was absent from the Chamber someone told Mr Boscawen my colleague that we were the libertarian party. Well we are not. We have a libertarian wing but we are the party of choice so we respect the choice of the people of Wanganui. We promote freedom of speech. Many in our party are almost obsessed I will say with freedom of speech but freedom of speech has limits. People cannot yell “Fire!” in a crowded theatre. People cannot walk down the street with certain things on their T-shirts or they will be arrested. It has nothing to do with gangs. These groups—gangs or whatever—are criminal organisations whose purpose is intimidation. Much of the recent debate has completely neglected the part of the bill that requires gangs to be identified as being criminal. 
But there are problems of interpretation. I am a lawyer. There are problems in defining “insignia” and problems in defining “display”. All of those things are there. We could spend all night on the pros and cons and the yin and yang. Members opposite have—with fairness and justification—asked where we stand because we have created a little confusion. In fact I will take responsibility and say that I have created some. I said at the outset that we were going to listen to the debate. I am afraid I have to say that what Mr Borrows whom I respect greatly thought was the coup de grâce—the story of the young man killed because he wore a red hoodie—in fact deeply disturbs me and I am afraid that in all conscience I have to say that what the Labour members have said about that issue rings true. 
So where does the ACT Party stand on this bill? Well we stand right here. We are listening. It has been a very vigorous debate—probably not quite as vigorous as here— in our caucus and in our party. I am going to be honest and perhaps again prove my naivety and my newness and say that much of what I have heard tonight from members opposite makes sense. Much of what I have heard from the National side has always made sense. So I wish to keep listening. I think our caucus wishes to keep listening and to discuss and debate what is being said because the parliamentary process has proved itself in this debate not to be irrelevant not to be hot air and not to be controlled by an executive or someone else. Mr Chair and fellow members our position is this: we will vote in favour of the bill at this Committee stage but that does not presuppose that we will support the bill at its third reading. The only way we can continue to listen to the contributions from all sides is to vote in favour at this stage and that is what we will do. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I am happy to take a call on clause 5 because it is a very important part of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. The first question I have for the member in the Chair is: how vocal publicly have district councillors been about this bill? This is a serious question. We know that this is a big issue in Wanganui. The mayor has spoken out publicly very strongly about what he wants to do in terms of this legislation and I assume that district councillors also have spoken publicly about this. 
The issue I have relates to clause 5(2) which states: “In making a bylaw under subsection (1) the Council must use the special consultative procedure set out in section 83 of the Local Government Act 2002.” Part of that special consultative procedure requires that people show no predetermination of any decision and that they excuse themselves from any vote on any issue they have spoken out publicly on. I think this might be an issue. It is often the case when councillors do not necessarily know at the beginning that they are going to follow this procedure that they are very vocal about an issue. They then find themselves at serious risk of judicial review when they make a decision. People who do not like that decision may say that it is not fair that the councillors did not go into it with an open mind that they did not go into it prepared to consider both sides of the debate and that they went in with a predetermined point of view. 
In fact judicial reviews can overturn decisions made by councils on that basis alone. I do not say this lightly: currently a case is before the court awaiting the outcome of a judicial review on exactly this matter. It was taken by the Whakatane District Council against the Bay of Plenty Regional Council. The judge took specific interest in the fact that a number of public statements and actually private statements—she was prepared to listen to private statements that were made and conversations between individuals—suggested predetermination by some councillors and therefore she needed to consider whether those councillors should have to excuse themselves from the vote. 
Labour is opposing this legislation. When I read this part of the bill and saw that this particular procedure—which I agree is probably the right one—had been picked out I thought that there might be difficulties. The council needs to be aware that any appearance of predetermination real or otherwise may cause a problem for this legislation and may cause real cost for the Wanganui District Council further down the track. 
One of the issues that we have raised is the difficulty under this clause—where by-laws are able to be made to designate certain areas “specified places” where the display of gang insignia is prohibited—of our voting to pass this legislation without really knowing what the shape of this clause will be in Wanganui. It is very difficult because it is very much my concern that the poor communities in Wanganui will not get this by-law. It will be OK for gangs to be in these communities—not the wealthier communities which know how to go through the council procedures. It is not about being biased against the poor communities. The fact is that the wealthier communities are more likely to one know that there is a process going on two know how to engage in it and three know how to form a lobby group to make sure their part of the city is included in the by-law. Communities where people do not read the newspaper and may not listen to the local radio so they do not know there is a process going on and where even if they knew there was a process going on they would not know how to engage how to interact with the council or what they are meant to do—and may be too scared to do anything anyway—may feel that their point of view does not really count and that the council will not listen to them. That means it is likely that overwhelmingly the poorer communities will not get these by-laws and gang bans in their area while areas that are used to engaging with councils and that are used to having lobby groups will be able to have gangs banned in their area. That means that this bill is intrinsically unfair from the start and I do not think any member of this Committee would say that that is OK. I do not think anyone thinks that is fair; I think this bill should have tried more readily to address that. 
If this bill passes—and we are not sure now what will happen at the third reading; who knows—I really hope that the Wanganui District Council makes every single effort available in respect of these council procedures which are very foreign to a large proportion of many of our communities. These communities will be most affected and these communities are most at risk from having gangs come in to pick up prospects. The businesses in these areas will be affected. The by-law will undoubtedly make the central city a gang-free area but these people will be trying to run a business in an area that is not considered to be gang-free. 
KANWALJIT SINGH BAKSHI (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Labour—Dunedin North) 
: 
 I want to respond to some remarks made 10 minutes ago by the member of the ACT Party Mr Garrett and offer him an apology. I think I was one of those members who said that the ACT Party was libertarian. That was careless language. The member was kind enough to remind us that the ACT Party has a libertarian wing or a libertarian philosophy. We can probably agree that the ACT Party stands for personal liberty—as we all do—but more strongly than other parties in the House. Probably somewhere around that piece of language we can agree on what the ACT Party stands for. 
Mr Garrett also reminded us that the ACT Party does not know what to do. He said that in a very open and straightforward way and I wish to acknowledge that. But the fact remains that the ACT Party does not know what to do; it sets out to listen to the debate in the Chamber and then make up its mind which is a thoroughly legitimate thing to do and happens from time to time in the House. But in this debate the ACT Party has found itself on more sides than one. It is small enough that it is difficult to get a split or division within the ACT Party. I am not suggesting that is just within the caucus; I think probably it is wider than that. The member was generous—or frank—enough to acknowledge that within the ACT Party caucus there had been rigorous debate and I suspect that what he is not telling the Committee but what I am going to opine or propose is that within the membership of the ACT Party there are also some splits and divisions around the merits of this case. And so there should be. 
I want to repeat some remarks I made earlier on an earlier clause—clause 3—where I pointed out that the ACT Party had in my understanding of its management of itself over the years ever since it came to this House always been consistent. I suppose it is a bit like the Business Roundtable. It is always consistent. One always knows what the Business Roundtable position on this or that will be. In my instance I rarely agree with it and indeed I rarely agree with the ACT Party position on this or that. But there is consistency in the ACT Party position and in the earlier days the ACT Party was almost famous for it. It was famous for being a party of principle. [ 
Interruption 
] It was famous for taking a principled stand on this or that position. I respond to the person who purports to be the member in the chair that I am speaking broadly in response to the broad remarks from Mr Garrett. I just say to Mr Garrett that his party has always in my view taken a position that has been predictable and that has been based on principle. I have to say that it has been in my view almost always wrong. I have almost always found myself on the opposite side of some debate; but that is politics. 
The thing that troubles me about the ACT Party—and in a sense I am lining up the member over this—is that its principled position and coherence appear to be at risk now. I think the ACT Party needs to be very careful about its position on this legislation. It needs to be very careful in particular about whether it thinks a trade is worthwhile because a trade on this legislation with all the shortcomings— 
David Garrett 
: There has been no trade. I have said that 10 times Mr Hodgson. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The member might have said it 10 times; regrettably his leader said on television precisely that there was a trade. So you see the divisions within the ACT Party that I am gently trying to lay out can now be laid out a little more assertively in response to the member’s interjection. He is right but his leader takes an opposite position. Sir Roger Douglas takes a different position again and Mr John Boscawen who recently resumed his seat took—in my view—a fourth position that is not the same as the member’s position. So we have the ACT Party quietly unravelling over this matter. 
It is important for the ACT Party to realise—if it wants to be a party of principle and it is sufficiently small to be so—that unless it operates on principle it will not make any progress at all. It is important for the ACT Party to decide whether the position it takes on this legislation is one of principle or one of convenience. Of course we can all agree that Chester Borrows has done the right thing in bringing this local bill to this House. He has done the right thing in bringing it into this collective—this House of Representatives—for getting it judged. We are the judges and sooner or later we must make up our minds. Best we do that on the basis of principle. 
AARON GILMORE (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 5 be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 5 agreed to. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Before I call clause 5A I remind members that this is the Committee stage; this is not a second or third reading. The Committee is unusually discussing a bill clause by clause so members should focus on the clause in particular and give that their attention. Wide-ranging sweeping statements starting with philosophy the nature of life and global geopolitical issues are outside the scope of this debate. 
NATHAN GUY (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I seek the leave of the Committee for clauses 5A through to 5F to be taken as one debate but voted on clause by clause. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: Leave is sought for there to be a single debate but voting clause by clause. Is there any objection to that? Objection is taken so we will deal with this clause by clause. 
Clause 5A Signposting of specified places 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 It is a delight to speak very specifically to clause 5A “Signposting of specified places”. Earlier in the debate we discussed what a specified place is. A specified place “means a public place designated as a specified place for the purpose of this Act …”. In turn a public place as we have already discussed is “a place—that is under the control of the Council; and that is open to or being used by the public …”. It includes roads—and we have already heard from Metiria Turei tonight about the dangers of such a wide definition of a public place—and indeed any part of a public place controlled by the Wanganui District Council. We have in clause 5A specified places within the definition of public places— 
Sandra Goudie 
: Specified. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: I thank Mrs Goudie for her commentary. It is a very broad ambit for the Wanganui District Council and now it is asking what the specified places are. 
Clause 5A states that specified places have to be signposted. Well what do we in this Chamber think will become the badge of honour in any gang headquarters in the Wanganui District? It will be one of these signposts. The moment that gang members in Wanganui come across a place where there is a sign that states and directs that they cannot wear their gang patch the sign will automatically become a badge of honour. In fact I expect that many gangs around Wanganui will begin a contest to see who can get the greatest number of signposts. That is the problem with this bill: it creates a badge of honour for and increases the status and mana of gangs by making their patches something they can choose to use in competition with one another to show their pride in being a gang member. The signposts will just become an image of that. I can see that the Wanganui District Council will have to budget an enormous amount of money to constantly replace the signposts that will be torn down taken into gang headquarters right around the Wanganui area and used as badges of honour. 
The signposting of specified places really serves just to emphasise why this bill simply will not work. We have already said that the intent of the bill is a good one and Chester Borrows deserves to be congratulated on bringing the will of the Wanganui District Council to us today. But this particular clause shows us why this bill will not work. The very thing that the bill aims to do will be undermined because straight away the signposts will become badges of honour to be ripped down and away we go again. Under this well-intentioned but poorly-thought-out bill the Wanganui District Council and the good ratepayers of the Wanganui area will be forced to shell out time and time again for signposts. 
Subclause (2) states: “No prosecution … and no arrest or seizure under section 7 may be challenged on the ground that a notice was not affixed in accordance with subsection (1).” 
Paul Quinn 
: Problem dealt with. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: No I say to Mr Quinn that the problem is not dealt with. All that provision will do is increase the desire of the gangs to play cat and mouse with the police. 
Unfortunately none of this legislation will change the behaviour of those gangs. This bill is about reducing intimidation but the intimidation is committed by the people not the patch. Unfortunately in this symbolic and cosmetic bill this is the most cosmetic moment. The signposts will point gang members to where they can go to prove themselves. That will be where they can go to tear down a sign that tells them they cannot be in a place and to challenge the authority of the Wanganui District Council and the police. This clause is symbolic of the problem with this bill. 
I return briefly to the question of a specified place because I think this is the provision that Labour members are particularly concerned about. The Wanganui District Council will be making decisions about specified places on the basis of the wide definition of “public place”. We know where the specified places will be: they will be in the central city because we know that that area is partly behind the intent of this bill and we also know they will be in the rich areas. We definitely know that the poorer areas of Wanganui will not be places where this law will apply. We know that the gang problem will simply be shifted out of the central city area and into the poorer areas of the city. The notion of a specified place under this bill effectively shows the people of Wanganui which areas the Wanganui District Council cares about today and which other areas it does not mind the gang problem continuing in. 
Clause 5A should not be passed; it is in fact just a signpost for gangs. 
METIRIA TUREI (Green) 
: 
 I have put an amendment to clause 5A in the pile of amendments on the Table. My amendment is to delete subclause 5(2) which states: “No prosecution under section 6 and no arrest or seizure under section 7 may be challenged on the ground that a notice was not affixed in accordance with subsection (1).” 
My problem with this bill is that it is very unusual. It is very different legislation from what we would otherwise find anywhere in the criminal law book. It provides for a particularly serious level of criminal sanction for a comparatively minor act which is the wearing of a certain kind of clothing. So it is very very important that not just the people of the Wanganui District but anyone who is driving or passing through the district are aware that within a certain boundary there is a law that provides for a criminal offence that is not found anywhere else in this country and which has very serious consequences. If the council is able to include a very broad range of areas under this provision so that that criminal offence applies to a very broad range of areas then it is absolutely essential that in those areas there is signage to tell people that if they wear a certain kind of specified clothing then they are committing a criminal offence. 
Generally speaking in New Zealand law we have a provision that if something is not legislated against then it is permitted. There is a great deal of criminal law that is well understood by the community. It has been built up over a number of years. Most of it—some of it—applies equitably across the whole country so people know that if they are committing a certain kind of offence in Invercargill then it will be an offence in Wellington Northland and Palmerston North. This bill however is very very different because of the by-laws creating a criminal offence. Everyone knows that there are different by-laws around this country but not ones that are as Draconian as this measure providing that a criminal offence is committed by the wearing of certain clothes. There should be no excuse for the council being able to impose that kind of restriction and criminal sanction without advising the community—and in fact the entirety of this country really; people from anywhere may find themselves in the area—that they may be subject to those criminal sanctions. 
Subclause (2) gives the council an excuse to do nothing. The council need not ever post any signage anywhere if it does not think it is reasonably practicable to do so. It can impose this by-law impose the criminal sanctions have the use of the police to back it on this legislation and not provide any public signage or indication that the criminal offence will apply in certain areas. By allowing for subclause (2) there is a real risk that the community simply will not know that they risk committing this criminal offence and will be subject to it. That is grossly unfair. We are not talking about gang members here; we are talking about people who may unwittingly be caught up in that process. 
I know for example Michael Franti has a band with a type of insignia that looks very much like the Black Power insignia—the “power to the people” insignia. The band’s insignia is not a gang insignia but it is very very similar to it in look and style. It is quite possible for an overwrought policeman—and Mr Borrows must have met a few of those in his time—to get a bit overexcited about seeing something that might look like gang insignia but is not necessarily gang insignia. A person who wears such insignia is potentially subject to police searches without a warrant. If the police do not believe that person—perhaps that person is a young Maori man for example; and we know that young Maori men are particularly subject to the criminal law under these circumstances—it is quite possible that that young person could find himself or herself being processed before the police come to their senses and realise that in fact no criminal offence has been committed. The police might also use this law to stop people search them and then find some other reason with which to charge and process them thereby creating a great deal of hassle and cost for the police but also creating for such young people— 
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
: 
 It is important to make a number of points in respect of this particular clause. 
Various speakers have spoken about an underlying intent of the Wanganui District Council to somehow ban gang insignia from the areas of the town that are well off and to leave the poorer areas of the town languishing with gang members allowed to be there uninhibited. When the process of bringing a local bill before the House is initiated one of the things that have to be done is for a copy of the bill as intended to be put up for public display in a number of areas. At the back of the copy of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill were a number of maps photographs and street descriptions of where the gang patch bans could be or are anticipated to be. That information was open to the public so that they could have some communication on it and give some feedback on their thoughts. If the members who have given speeches on the bill and spoken in such a disingenuous way about the Wanganui District Council and its intent had taken the time and effort to get that document they would have seen that the spread of the ban across Wanganui is broad and includes large tracts of parks and reserves around the poorer areas of the town. It does not include residential streets but does include council property within those areas. 
I think it is also important to note that one of the saddest things about debate in this Chamber is that at times people speak out of both sides of their mouth. On the one hand we have people standing up and commending the Wanganui District Council for caring enough to promote this bill: for putting up its hand and taking responsibility. They are saying it is a worthy move and all that patronising stuff whereby people pat us on the head for having done so. Then those people are speaking out of the other side of their mouth—for instance the Green member who has spoken suggested that there was a conspiracy between the Mayor of Wanganui and myself to hide from the public exactly where these bans would be put in place. Well people cannot have it both ways. The speech was made before tea and the suggestion was made that the mayor had done that and that I was somehow part of the conspiracy. 
Another point is that time and time again we hear speeches about the disingenuousness of the police in stopping and enforcing laws against young Maori men as a matter of course. I find that incredibly difficult to stomach given the role that the police take within our society. I am not so green as to be cabbage looking and I understand that amongst every big box there are a few rotten apples. Where we have 8500 employees there are those who will abuse any legislation just as there are now. 
A suggestion was also made that in the notified areas cars could be stopped and the contents tipped out and searched for gang insignia. Of course cars can be stopped under the transport legislation. They can be randomly stopped for anything—and frequently are. The fact that this legislation enables a police officer to stop a vehicle from which gang insignia is displayed to the public is the nature of the definition of section 2 of the Summary Offences Act. That is where this definition of “public place” comes from and it provides that people who are in a vehicle in a public place so defined are in a public place. When they are in that vehicle within this legislation the gang insignia would have to be visible in the banned area from outside the vehicle. 
It is important to make those points. Yes we do accept that from time to time rules are bent and rules are broken. That is the nature of human life; it is the nature of living in a society. But let us get back to the point. These people in Wanganui took legislation—the Local Government Act—and used it in a way that it was intended for: to be able to create legislation that deals with a problem that is not only theirs but is a problem broadly across the whole of our country. Those of us who represent constituents understand that that is true. The people of Wanganui have put up their hand accepted they have a problem and have taken some flak for that in bringing this bill before the House. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I thank the member who is sponsoring the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill for taking that call. I hope the Chair recognises that the speech was slightly wider than clause 5A and that we may be able to respond in kind. I thought it was good that the call was taken but I say to Mr Borrows that the speech was much wider than clause 5A and we were specifically asked to keep our speeches to that clause. 
I will respond to his speech because it was never implied that the Wanganui District Council wanted to attack poor communities. The reality is that there are many communities in our society I say to Mr Borrows that will not read that bit of paper. They will not read it. They will see it and will have no interest in it. They will not know that it is relevant to them. They will not necessarily know the impact it might have on their community. I was simply saying—and I hope this is not going to be politicised as my saying that the Wanganui District Council hates poor communities which I never said—that for something as serious as this the council needs to ensure that those communities that are going to be affected really understand what the by-law means. That is simply all I was saying. I appreciate that the Wanganui District Council had its draft by-law proposal but we all know that there are many people in our communities who will not read that piece of paper. They will not know what to do if they read that piece of paper and do not like what they read there. They will not know how to form a lobby group or how to influence district councillors to vote so that their views are represented. I was simply asking that that be considered so that if this bill does pass through this House—and I hope it does not—those communities that are most at risk will be assured that the council will make every effort beyond what is required of it by the bare minimum of the Local Government Act in terms of by-laws to make sure that communities understand that. That is all I was saying. 
Chester Borrows 
: Like a referendum? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: What was that I say to Mr Borrows? 
Chester Borrows 
: Like a referendum? 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Mr Borrows fails to understand what I am saying. What was the turn-out for referendums? Can we be sure that the communities that are involved really know what is going on? That is simply what I am saying. If we sit up here in our ivory tower and think that every community takes notice of every word we say in central and local government knows everything that is going on and knows the exact processes they should follow under the Local Government Act to remedy anything they do not like then we are very very bad representatives for the country. All I was simply pointing out is how important it is to make sure that all communities in Wanganui understand especially if they are in a community that will not be part of the by-law— 
Paul Quinn 
: They understand it. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: Well Mr Paul Quinn says they understand it. Of course he claimed that every part of the country apart from Wanganui did not want this bill and that is why the Government did not pick it up as a Government bill. Actually I think Mr Quinn is just speaking off the top of his head and has no evidence to back that up. 
Paul Quinn 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The member has in fact misrepresented me. I take objection. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker) 
: That is not a point of order. The member knows that. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I apologise to Mr Quinn. I did not realise he was so sensitive. I thought he was able to withstand robust debate. Clearly he is not. 
The Labour Party will be supporting the amendment moved by Metiria Turei to delete subclause (2) of clause 5A. We agree that it is rather unfair to tell people that they can be prosecuted for being in an area where there is a sign saying that they cannot be in that area with gang insignia then telling them that there is no defence when there was not actually a sign there. This comes back to the point that my colleague Grant Robertson made which is that gang members will want to steal those signs. In fact a whole lot of people will want to take those signs and hang them up in their bedrooms as they do with traffic cones and all those kinds of things. Anyone who has been into a university flat knows the array of street signs that can often be found there. This will be one that people will really want to have. I do not believe it is fair that someone can be prosecuted under this bill for going into an area while wearing gang insignia as provided for under this bill when there is no signage telling them that they are in that area. 
I hope that the ACT Party will be supporting this amendment. Even if the party does go on to vote for the bill—I do not think it should but clearly it is under some pressure to do that—I hope it at least supports this amendment. I do not think the ACT Party believes that it is fair that someone can be prosecuted for committing a crime when they are not told that it is a crime to do it in that area. I really do not think that the ACT Party believes that that is fair. If ACT supports this amendment it will be agreed to and at least we will be one tiny step closer to fairer legislation when it comes through. 
I want to know what this might do in the communities that do not know how to engage in this process—and I still believe those may well be our poorer communities. What will it do to the value of their houses when they know that in certain parts of the district there will be big signs up saying it is OK to buy a house in that area because it is a gang-free area but the rest of Wanganui is a gang-intense area an area where we have told gang members they can wear their insignia? I wonder what that will do to those communities to any tourism ventures they may want to have in those communities and to house values for people who own homes in those communities. I would appreciate the member in charge of the bill taking a call on that issue. Obviously I think we will have to have some kind of signage if we go through with this. I ask whether the impact has really been thought through. What might be the obviously unintended impact on those communities that will be known and signposted as areas where people can go and see patched gang members and gang insignia and where it is OK to be intimidated by gangs even if it is not OK in other parts of the district? 
Again this comes back to the point that if the Government feels this is something that might work and that needs to be done why is it not being done across the whole country? Why is it not being done in a uniform way so that we do not pick winning suburbs and losing suburbs and winning cities and losing cities? Mr Borrows claims that we are being disingenuous when we say that we appreciate the work that the Wanganui District Council has done. For myself I say to Mr Borrows that I am not being patronising to the Wanganui District Council when I say that. I genuinely mean it. I think that we can thank the council for the hard work that it has done on this legislation and for the manner in which the legislation came to the House—clearly the council cares about its community and wants to do something about the issue—but respectfully disagree that this a pathway by which a solution can be achieved. 
Labour supported this bill’s referral to the Law and Order Committee. I am sure Mr Borrows will concur that our members on the committee worked hard to try to come up with a workable bill. But when it came back after the select committee process we just could not support a bill that would not do anything and that might actually have unintended consequences. If the National Government wants to put this up as legislation that covers all areas so that we do not have to have signposting because everybody would know that it applied everywhere and so that people who travel from outside the city would know that the law applied across the whole country then of course the Government can come back and talk to us and we will make a decision based on the merit of that legislation. 
I would like to hear from the member in the chair on his view on Metiria Turei’s amendment. I think it is a fair one. I understand that Mr Borrows will probably stand up and say that gang members will take the sign down and walk into the area. I do not believe that is as likely to happen as their taking it down just to put it up in their gang headquarters or a student’s taking it down to put it up in a university flat. I think that at some point we have to come down to a fundamental principle. That principle is that if signposting is the way people know those areas are where they cannot wear gang insignia then we cannot say that if the sign is not there someone can still be prosecuted. There is no way people can know about that unless they go down and read a document at the council. Why would they do that if they did not know that it would be an issue? 
The first place I go when I visit Wanganui is not to the council offices to check all the by-laws so that I can make sure that I do not break any of them while I am there. That is what we are actually saying people have to do because if those signs go missing people will be committing a criminal act without even knowing it and will be subject to a $2000 fine. I do not believe that anyone in this House should support that or say that it is OK. Maybe the signs that are outside Wanganui—and we could put this in by amendment—should say: “Please go to the local council and check the by-law because you may be breaking the law without knowing it if the signs have disappeared.” 
I would be interested in the member in the chair taking a call. I hope National members will support the amendment moved by Metiria Turei. I hope the ACT Party will support it. 
Grant Robertson 
: They’ll have five positions on it. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: They probably will have five positions on it. Maybe after Mr Garrett has given us his position Mr Boscawen can give us his position and then we can get a better idea. I think that will be one small step towards making this a much fairer bill. Thank you. 
Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) 
: 
 Tena tatou. Mr Chairperson I crave a small modicum of forbearance on your part so that I may stray very briefly from time to time during my short and hopefully sporting contribution to the import of clause 5A of the Wanganui District Council (Prohibition of Gang Insignia) Bill. 
I respond to one of three things that were said by the member who is shepherding this local bill forward Chester Borrows. I made a reference to the police. I appreciate the difficult role the police have especially in relation to gang management and gang engagement. I am very aware of the role that our Maori police have in maintaining cordial relations with certain gang members so they can maintain contact and uncover information. In actual fact I support that. Indeed one of my whanaunga Paddy Whiu from Ngapuhi was here this evening and he played a key role in that. I would not like the member for Whanganui to form the view that those of us on this side of the Chamber who are not going to agree with this bill have an impoverished view of the police. 
The reality is if the police are going to police and execute this bill to the black-letter meaning of the law then they must improve their performance and conduct in terms of what we saw with the Pomare residents being tossed out on the road—in particular the mokopuna the children and the women. I am talking about the suburb out in the Hutt and the drama visited upon them—especially the children—by Housing New Zealand Corporation. I want to assure the member Chester Borrows that I am supportive of the role the police have. But just like MPs the police are not above the law. If their conduct—as our conduct is constantly challenged—is not beyond cavil and is not compliant with the law then they should expect to be called to account for it. 
I fear that when the police are asked to determine whether a council has been reasonable or practicable in terms of identifying a place where the information will be made available about whether a place is suitable for banning gang insignia they will be embroiled in a very difficult situation. Part of dealing with gangs is maintaining contact and engagement with them. I probably share a lot of the views of the Pakeha and Maori of Wanganui who have had a gutsful of being seen to indulge or acquiesce to this ongoing gang violence. The reality is that in dealing with bodies like that information is power. If gangs can be suborned to unwittingly provide information to the law enforcement agencies then they will have multiple arrows to the quiver. I have no doubt in my mind that prosecutions in this regard will be challenged and inevitably found to be wanting. It is just not tolerable for people to suffer for doing something wrong when there is just no way within a defined space that they could have reasonably known that they were treading into territory where they were not wanted. 
Of course we do not want their bad ways in public spaces. I recently read about the affairs of the gangs in Sydney and elsewhere in Australia and no one wants to see those imported into our airports etc. But this bill is about the machinery of local government being used to eradicate a problem that has spread throughout rural and urban New Zealand. It is not solely about the broad threats that gangs represent; it is about whether the mechanisms that we are placing in law this evening through the passage of this bill are going to work. 
The bell is about to ring so I make a short reference to the ACT Party’s law and order spokesperson David Garrett who is a person full of zeal—not passion but zeal. Occasionally he reminds me of the inquisitorial board of the early stages of the Catholic Church in Europe. That zeal has been found to be built on shifting sands. It depends on whether ACT believes that the major party—the National Party—is going to support its foul legislation known as the “three strikes” bill as to whether it will vote with us. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of Metiria Turei to clause 5A be agreed to: 
to omit subclause (2). 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 57 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Noes 59 
New Zealand National 58; United Future 1. 
Abstentions 5 
ACT New Zealand 5. 
Amendment not agreed to. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 5A be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 5A agreed to. 
Clause 5B Public notice of bylaws and availability of copies 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Labour—Rimutaka) 
: 
 I am pleased to take a call on this bill. It is my first call on this bill but unfortunately it will be a little technical and dry—not unlike me I know. 
This is a very important bill though and clause 5B regarding the public notice of by-laws and the availability of copies refers to section 157 of the Local Government Act 2002 and states that this section will apply “to a bylaw made under section 5 …”. So I went to the Local Government Act 2002—which ironically I believe National voted against—and looked up the relevant section section 157. Subsection (1) states: “As soon as practicable after a bylaw is made the local authority must give public notice of the making of the bylaw stating—(a) the date on which the bylaw will come into operation; and (b) that copies of the bylaw may be inspected and obtained at the office of the local authority on payment of a specified amount.” Section 157(2) states: “A local authority must—(a) keep copies of all its bylaws at the office of the local authority; and (b) make its bylaws available for public inspection without fee at reasonable hours at the office of the authority; and (c) supply to any person on request and on payment of a reasonable charge a copy of any of its bylaws.” 
The reason I have alerted the Committee to the contents of that particular section of the Local Government Act is that when we compare what is required by clause 5B with what is required by clause 5A and when we consider the overall intent of the bill—which is to potentially ban the display of any gang insignia—we realise that first of all we have an issue with somebody potentially not being aware that an insignia has been banned from a specific place if that person has not seen the sign. It becomes an issue where the local authority the place where these by-laws are kept is within the area in which the gang insignia may be banned from being displayed. If the sign is not seen or if the sign is not there people would need to go to the local authority in order to find out that information. Members of a gang who were displaying their patches might inadvertently break the law in order to find out what the law is. In order to access the by-law they would need to go to the local authority to read the by-law and they would not necessarily know that by going there they were breaking the law. 
So this issue is very important and that is one of the reasons why it was really important that we supported Metiria Turei’s amendment to clause 5A(2) which basically removed that subclause. At the moment as the subclause stands now—unfortunately her amendment was not passed—no prosecution under clause 6 and no arrest or seizure under clause 7 may be challenged on the ground that a notice was not affixed in accordance with subclause (1). So it means that people could be completely unaware they were breaking the law when they went into the council to find out what the law was. Under this bill they can actually be arrested for that. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: It’s crazy. 
CHRIS HIPKINS 
: It is absolutely ridiculous. And that highlights overall another reason why this bill simply does not make sense. 
I come into this debate particularly sceptical of gangs. I am not a fan of gangs. My view is that public safety has to be the primary consideration. But we have to focus on what will work rather than on something that maybe sounds good in theory but simply will not work. Ultimately we actually know that National knows that this bill will not work. If those members thought this bill would make a difference and would work we would not be discussing a local bill on a members’ day; we would be discussing a Government bill and it would apply to the whole country not to just one district. But we are not. We would be fixing it across the land and not in just one small part of it. Of course we are not doing that because ultimately the Government knows that this bill will not work. The Government is happy for us to take up the House’s time to discuss it on a members’ day. The Government’s legislative agenda is not being compromised as we go through this bill clause by clause. But the Government is not willing to say: “Yes we think it is a sufficiently good idea that we’re going to put it on the Order Paper as a Government bill and apply it to the whole country.” 
I come back to clause 5B. This clause highlights the technical problem with the bill—there are many technical problems but this is quite a key one—which is the fundamental idea that if someone is going to be arrested for breaking a law that person has the right to know what the law is and a right to know that he or she potentially is going to break it. As it stands in this bill people do not know that. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That clause 5B be agreed to. 
Ayes 64 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 57 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 8; Maori Party 5; Progressive 1. 
Clause 5B agreed to. 
Clause 5C Review of bylaws 
GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) 
: 
 Clause 5C looks at the review of by-laws. I think it is important as we go through this bill to reflect again on the process under clause 5 for making these by-laws. Clause 5C states that by-laws will need to be reviewed “no later than 5 years after the date on which the bylaw was made.” The question is whether 5 years will be the right length of time. I come to that question by looking at clause 5(3) because we are talking here about some fundamental issues for the people of Wanganui as to the way these by-laws are made under that clause. The council in making the by-law identifying a gang will have to be satisfied that that gang has certain characteristics such as “(a) a common name or common identifying signs symbols or representations and” that “(b) its members associates or supporters individually or collectively promote encourage or engage in a pattern of criminal activity.” Of course the provision is for the gangs that are not named in the bill already. 
This will be the area where lawyers will have a field day but it is also the area where in a review as called for under clause 5C difficulties will arise. The types of symbols and the types of signs that gangs use will change and evolve quickly under this legislation because gangs will seek to avoid being captured by it. They will change the way they do things. They will change their names. As well they will also change the way they work potentially. That is where clause 5(3)(b) talks about people engaging in “a pattern of criminal activity.” That will change quickly over time in response to this bill. So my feeling is that clause 5C which calls for a review and the reviewing of the by-laws is a good thing in principle. I think it is important to have a review. I think the review could be done as quickly as a year or 2 years— 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: 18 months. 
GRANT ROBERTSON 
: —even 18 months later; we could be looking to review this by-law. Inherently clause 5 puts the Wanganui District Council in a very difficult position. Clause 5 asks it to make a range of judgments about the kinds of things that constitute a gang which I think potentially could lead the council into the courts quite quickly as people seek to say that either they are or they are not a gang. We have already discussed this evening that gangs potentially want to be part of this. They want to be recognised; they want to be named in the first part of clause 5— 
Progress reported. 
Report adopted.