Carter David: Third Readings 
Carter David: Third Readings 
[Volume:607;Page:4320] 
Hon DAVID CARTER (NZ National) 
: 
 I have been sitting here wondering about the Irish priest and I think I know why Gordon Copeland cannot present him. That priest is very very busy in the confessional box. I suspect there are many many occasions when the United Future members of Parliament line up and say they think they have let the people of New Zealand down. Those people campaigned on the basis of their commitment and principle. They were to come here to Parliament and keep the Government honest. I listened to the speech of Gordon Copeland as he tried to justify this legislation. He attempted to argue—with huge difficulty I acknowledge—that this was not a tax rate based on race. But Gordon Copeland could not successfully argue that. To David Benson-Pope who continues to interject I say it is a sad day— 
Clayton Cosgrove 
: It’s been around for a long period of time. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Clayton Cosgrove thinks he knows the law. He says it has been around for a long period of time. Why are we changing the rate now to 19.5 percent? Why is this legislation before the House today if this has been around for a long time? The answer is that these guys today if we pass this legislation will give a special tax rate of 19.5 percent. I say to Clayton Cosgrove that that rate has not been around for a long time. I say to him that as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee he should have known that. 
I go back to the comments of Gordon Copeland. He may well have forgotten this but I sat in the House when we did the Committee stage on this legislation and he interjected—it will be recorded in  
Hansard 
—that Maori deserve to have a special tax status because they were here in New Zealand first. That is what Gordon Copeland said in this House. 
Dail Jones 
: Are you sure he said that? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: I assure you he said that Maori deserve to have a special tax status because they were here first. 
John Carter 
: They were here first. They arrived in New Zealand— 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: They arrived in New Zealand before Pakeha. 
Rodney Hide 
: He didn’t say that! 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: He did say that. So that is what we are to do: we are to have tax rates now that are determined by the time that one’s heritage has been in this country. 
Rodney Hide 
: I’m from the first four ships. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: It is tough luck if Rodney Hide is descended from people on the first four ships. He would have to be descended from people on the first four wakas to be included in this deal. I say to United Future that it should watch the way it is treated at the next election if it continues to roll over and support stuff that I cannot believe it can really accept. 
The other interesting comment from Mr Copeland was that he aspires to the day when we will be able to find most Maori authority beneficiaries being on a personal tax rate of 33 percent and that then we will change this legislation. I make two points about that. Once it is enacted it will be very hard to change this racially based legislation. The second point I would make is that there is no chance of getting significant numbers of Maori on to a 33 percent tax rate while there is the basic argument raised by John Tamihere whereby continuing to bash people into welfare dependency will give no chance whatsoever of upping significantly the tax rates paid by Maori. 
The other interesting interjection came from my South Island colleague. 
Rodney Hide 
: I’m Ngai Tahu. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: I wish the member good luck. Rodney Hide should rearrange his affairs and get on a Maori authority and he will save himself a lot of money. The other interesting comment that I must mention was Mahara Okeroa’s contribution when he yelled across the House that Maori like paying high taxes. That is what he said and he repeated it today. Why are we giving them a special tax rate if they are so keen to pay a higher tax rate? 
Mahara Okeroa 
: We are restoring our historical situation as has existed with Maori authority beneficiaries for 100 years. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: I say to Mahara Okeroa that if Maori are happy and keen to front up and pay high rates we should let them. We do not need to pass this legislation. Let us see where that man votes shortly. 
The justification for this racially based legislation was that most Maori beneficiaries—the ultimate beneficiaries of a Maori authority—are actually low to middle income New Zealanders. Therefore they will not be taxed at 33c in the dollar and therefore we will bring in the special proxy rate of 19.5c in the dollar. That was the argument that was run. But let us for example take a listed company like Air New Zealand. 
Darren Hughes 
: Very good owners. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: The member should stand in the queue tonight. He does not have to go to the airport because he is locally based. However if he did he would stand in the queues now which are probably half an hour longer than they were before the Government and Michael Cullen became the very good owners of that airline. But that is not the point I want to make. I want to make the point that the 17 percent shareholding in Air New Zealand that is not owned by the Government will in terms of numbers be significantly owned by ma and pa investors. I say to Darren Hughes who now claims that he is a tax expert that most of those people will not be paying 33c in the dollar as their personal tax rate so why are we not providing the same 19.5c in the dollar rate for them? 
Darren Hughes 
: Because it’s a new policy. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: I will tell that member what my policy is. It is to drive tax rates down and to get the economy performing. And it is nice to get some support for that. It is a simple thing to do. 
I am not sure how much time I have left but that brings me to another point. This legislation also cements in the annual tax rates. Not enough people have spoken about that. Here in New Zealand we had an economy that gave a golden opportunity to Dr Cullen to lock in some sustainably high growth rates but what did he do? He locked in the tax rates. Mr Hughes is quite right. However Dr Cullen has not locked in sustainable growth and that is a hugely missed opportunity that would not have been missed if we had a Government that knew anything about how to achieve sustainably high growth rates. 
Only in the last couple of weeks Helen Clark has admitted amnesia and that she forgot that she ever set a target of getting us back into the top half of the OECD within one decade. That just will not be possible while the tax rate is locked in at 39c in the dollar for people earning $60000 or more. Sixty-thousand dollars or more is not a high income. To ask people to pay in tax 39c of each additional dollar that they earn above that amount stifles initiative. It is a way to get at successful people. They are the very people that the Government talks about the need to try to assist and encourage and it is doing nothing but giving them words. 
Brian Connell 
: It’s an envy tax. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: He is absolutely right; it is. 
Debate interrupted.