English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:623;Page:18590] 
11.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education 
: Does he agree with the Prime Minister’s statement regarding scholarship results that “… there are a whole range of issues here that NZQA has to face up to”; if so what issues does he think the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has to face up to? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Education) 
: 
 Yes I do agree with the Prime Minister. As I outlined earlier that is the reason for the initiation of the review by the State Services Commission. But among the issues that need to be addressed are whether specified processes were followed and whether the examinations in each subject were fair and valid assessment tools. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Minister aware that the membership of the review group that he announced today is remarkably similar to the membership of the Secondary Principals’ and Leaders’ Forum—namely the Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) the Principals Council of the PPTA the Secondary Principals Association the School Trustees Association and the Vice-Chancellors Committee—and that that group gave the Minister advice last year that scholarship would be a shambles; so why will he take any notice of the same group reappointed this year? 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that when allegations like that are made they should be properly authenticated. I received no such advice from that group. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member asked a question. The Minister can respond. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: My understanding of the comments made by that group previously is that they were certainly not as unequivocal as has just been suggested by the member. I am confident that the group’s members are appropriate representatives of the wider sector and will give good— 
Hon Bill English 
: It’s all the same people. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: They are not the same people I say to Mr English. I am confident that they will give us good advice. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Will the Minister confirm that the decision to have New Zealand Certificate of Educational Achievement level 4 as a standards-based assessment was made by the Labour Government Cabinet not by National; and given that it was that decision that created the current debacle are his moves to sack the chief executive officer not simply passing the buck? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: No I will not confirm that statement. Quite clearly that decision was made in 1998. I earlier referred to the Cabinet paper over the signature of Wyatt Creech to demonstrate that that is the fact of the matter. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm that a group called the Secondary Principals’ and Leaders’ Forum whose membership is largely made up of exactly the same membership he announced for his review group today told the chief executive of the Ministry of Education and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority on 25 August 2004 in respect of scholarship: “Entries are very conservative teachers have been reluctant to enter students for scholarship when they do not know how it is going to be examined.” and that the minutes also pinpoint subjects such as biology and graphics which have turned out to be the subjects in which there were real problems? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I cannot confirm that but if that is the document that the member tabled in the House the other day I can confirm that his quotation from it is extremely selective. 
Hon Bill English 
: I seek leave to table the minutes again to demonstrate that my quotes were precisely from the document. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is this Parliament meant to believe that when the Secondary Principals’ and Leaders’ Forum told the chief executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Ministry of Education—the Minister of Education’s principal advisers—that teachers did not know how students were going to be examined in scholarship and that this reflected a lack of confidence in scholarship by teachers those people did not tell the Minister that that was what secondary schools were telling him in August last year? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am sure questions like that will be properly answered by the review that has been initiated today. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It makes a nonsense of question time when I am asking the Minister responsible who has all the paperwork and who has a colleague Minister who would have been present about what advice he was given and he says to go and ask someone else who is not in the House. He is the Minister responsible and Parliament is about ministerial responsibility. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes I think that is a fair point. The Minister will expand on the answer. 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: The whole point of the review is to answer exactly questions like that which I am not able to answer because I do not have all that information. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Mr Speaker we are in a rather unusual situation. I have seen it before but it is rather unusual. We have a Minister who has only just been appointed and we have by way of interjection from the previous Minister Mr Mallard a clear indication that he as the Minister who was responsible does know the answer. I seek leave for that particular question to be redirected to Mr Mallard who I am sure could answer it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is not. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister advise the House whether advice given to Howard Fancy the chief executive of the Ministry of Education and Karen van Rooyen the Chief Executive of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority was passed on to him the advice being that given by the Secondary Principals’ and Leaders’ Forum on Wednesday 25 August 2004 which includes in the minutes under “Scholarship” the statements: “Entries are very conservative teachers have been reluctant to enter students for scholarship when they do not know how it is going to be examined. This may reflect a lack of confidence in scholarship examination by teachers.”; if that advice was passed on by his chief advisers why did he proceed with the scholarship examination? 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I have over the last 24 hours worked my way through the advice I received over that time period. I did not receive that advice. 
Hon Bill English 
: I don’t believe it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will now stand withdraw and apologise for that comment. 
Hon Bill English 
: I withdraw and apologise.