Dyson Ruth; Rurawhe Adrian; Simpson Scott; Upston Louise; Ross Jami-Lee; Brown Simeon; Kuriger Barbara; Smith NickHon RUTH DYSON (Senior Whip—Labour): I move That the question be now put.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): The question is that the question be now put.Hon SCOTT SIMPSON (National—Coromandel): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We've had a fairly short debate on this process so far but I want to raise with you a point relating to the amendment that has been very recently put on the Table by David Seymour the MP for Epsom. This is a handwritten document and although—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Can the member come to the point of order please.Hon SCOTT SIMPSON: Although he is a graduate of that very fine school Auckland Grammar School it's barely legible and for the committee to be able to consider properly his amendment I wondered if we could seek your guidance about the legibility of the handwritten amendment that's been put on the Table—or maybe invite the member to perhaps read it out so that the committee can fully comprehend it.David Seymour: Point of order. I might be able to assist.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No I don't need any more assistance thank you. I've read the tabled amendment. If it is ineligible then—Hon Members: Illegible.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): —thank you—it will be ruled out of order. I have read it and understood it. So the question—Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Less than a minute of this committee's debating time has so far been available to the amendment that I have tabled and I would request Mr Chair—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Order! That's not my responsibility. The amendment arrived when it arrived and this debate has been going for almost four hours and 25 minutes. The member had plenty of time to get that in here. I believe that members have had enough time to peruse those amendments and the question—Hon Members: Point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): There are—how many?—one two three four five six seven points of order all at once. Now I'm starting to think that points of order are being raised to stop the vote from taking—[Interruption] So if this is in any way trying to relitigate my decision to accept the closure motion then there will be consequences.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Thank you Mr Chairperson. The amendment that came into the committee within the last quarter of an hour I had tabled first thing this morning. I had asked the Clerk if it was out of order and nobody had advised me. I had then issued a new amendment for consideration by the committee so I think Mr Chair the consideration should be that I had tabled it and hadn't been advised in terms of—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): And your point of order is?Hon LOUISE UPSTON: The point of order is that less than a minute has been debated on the amendment.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Unless the member can point to a Standing Order or a Speakers' ruling around that I'm not going to accept that.JAMI-LEE ROSS (Senior Whip—National): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The point of order which I feel was unfairly considered there is that we are under urgency and we have had limited ability to write amendments and limited ability to consider what is a very far-reaching tax bill. The right of the Opposition under urgency to have the ability to write amendments and have them debated is paramount. The argument that my colleague was making—who is a senior member who has been a Minister in the past Government. She was making the point that it deserves to have debate. And this side of the House does deserve to have that right under urgency.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Thank you. If the Hon Louise Upston is referring to the tabled amendment on Better Public Services then I'm ruling this out of order. So there will be no debate on this OK? It's outside the scope sorry—outside the scope of the bill.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The objective of the bill is clearly stated—about supporting low and middle income New Zealanders. It's about child poverty and it's about ensuring children have the best start in life. My amendment if the committee would give it time to be debated is all about measures to support—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I'm sorry. The member will be seated. The member can't relitigate my decision to rule this out of scope. This amendment effectively creates a new Better Public Services Act or amends that. This is outside the scope of the bill we are debating. I go back to my call.Hon Members: Point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Sit down. I'm warning members. If there's going to be continuation of questioning my decision to accept the closure motion—I can assure the members that the closure motion is not going to go away. So repeatedly asking questions about different tabled amendments through a point of order will be ruled as causing disorder in the committee.SIMEON BROWN (National—Pakuranga): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It's a fresh point of order and it relates to the Minister when he was last in the chair Grant Robertson. He was replying to the honourable member David Seymour and the Minister said he is interested in the views of the Parliament on tax indexation—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): I'm sorry. [Interruption] The member will be seated. That is not a point of order and I repeat what I said before. Please no more points of order trying to relitigate parts of the debate and tabled amendments.BARBARA KURIGER (National—Taranaki - King Country): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I put an amendment on the Table about 12.20 and—The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No. E noho! [Interruption] E noho ināia tonu nei![Sit down! [Interruption] Sit down right now!]I have had enough of this. If anyone relitigates that decision again they will be leaving the Chamber. The question is that the question be now put. Those in favour—JAMI-LEE ROSS (Senior Whip—National): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. A member of our party did not even get an opportunity to get her point of order out. I say Mr Chair that a member should at least be shown the respect to be able to put her point of order to you. If you wish to say she's wrong you may but she has the right to assert the point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): That will be for the committee of the whole House to decide. [Interruption] Oh yes it will be. It will be for the committee of the whole House to decide. When the vote is taken the decision of the committee will be final. If they want to hear from members that have tabled amendments then they will have opportunities to do that—if the committee of the whole House decides it.Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I actually think you have been very fair in your chairing of the session this morning but I would make one request of you. In your latest ruling you chose to use Te Reo and that's entirely appropriate but there was not an interpretation service. So I simply ask that if the Chair is to use Te Reo in their rulings can they please ensure the Māori interpretation is available so that we can properly respect what I think has actually been very effective chairing by the member.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Yeah that's not a point of order. There was a translation. And second when the first language obviously wasn't working—[Interruption] sit down—I went to the second language and perhaps that worked and it did.Hon Members: Point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No I'm going to put the question now. The question is that the question be now put. Those of that opinion will say Aye and against say No. The Ayes have it. [Interruption] The Ayes have it?JAMI-LEE ROSS (Senior Whip—National): I raise a point of order Chairperson. My first point of order is that I have the right to raise a point of order. I am the chief whip for a party that represents 56 seats in this Parliament. For you sir to refuse to even allow me to raise a point of order is grossly disorderly and disrespectful of members of this House.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): So what is your point of order? Because that surely could not have been your point of order when you stood up. So what was that point of order?JAMI-LEE ROSS: I wish to make two points of order. That was my first. My second point of order is that we have gone past 1 o'clock. It is in the Standing Orders of this Parliament that there is a break for the lunch break. I was trying to raise that point of order to you before you dismissed me and did not hear me.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No. I have accepted the closure motion and the vote will take place.DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader—ACT): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Could I put it to you that you have lost control of the committee because of the way you've chaired it and if you're not going to allow me to speak when I have substantive things to say in response to the Minister's constructive comments on my amendment then there is no point in being here and if you're going to expel members for relitigating the point of order we might as well go anyway.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): The member will leave the Chamber.David Seymour withdrew from the Chamber.JAMI-LEE ROSS (Senior Whip—National): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. This is now at a point where we are questioning the very process and procedure of the House. I submit to you that your decision not to allow points of order from this side has led us to the point where we are in a grey area where I assert to you it is for you to rule and you should rule that we did not vote before 1 o'clock. It is only when a vote has been taken before 1 o'clock or we are in the middle of a vote that you cannot rise for lunch. We did not vote. We did not have the ability to vote before 1 o'clock or during 1 o'clock and therefore the committee must break for lunch.Hon Members: Point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): No I took the closure motion before 1 p.m. and the voting started before then. [Interruption] I took the closure motion before 1 p.m. [Interruption] Just one more clarification: as soon as I accept the closure motion that is when the vote starts. So the vote clearly started before 1 p.m. Relitigating that is not going to change it.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I move That the Speaker be recalled.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Can the member explain to the committee the exact point that she wants?Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): Yes—because points of order have been raised and they have been ignored. Points of order from any member in this Chamber—I believe there is a duty for the person in the Chair to accept the points of order and I have requested that the Speaker be recalled.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): The member can deal with concerns around points of order with the Speaker at a later time. Once the closure motion has been accepted everything has to be relevant to that. That's what I say to—Hon Louise Upston: Point of order.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Can I clarify then with the Hon Louise Upston: does she want to recall the Speaker about the closure motion? Because that's not what she said.Hon Louise Upston: I want to recall the Speaker because of points of order that have been raised in this committee.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Then my original ruling stands.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I'm seeking clarification from the presiding officer in the Chair that you are refusing my request to have the Speaker recalled. Because if that is the case sir I'm not sure that this has ever happened in the New Zealand Parliament.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): Well could I make it easier then: the member can request to recall the Speaker on the closure motion. That is not what she said.Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I have requested that the Speaker be recalled because the presiding officer has not accepted points of order that have an impact on the closure motion.The CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe): OK that is fine. The question is that the Speaker be recalled. Those of that opinion will say Aye. Those against will say No. The Ayes have it. The Speaker will be recalled.Motion agreed to.House resumed.