Cosgrove Clayton: General Debates 
Cosgrove Clayton: General Debates 
[Volume:617;Page:12859] 
CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 Twice I listened to Lockwood Smith’s speech last night and again today. Three times I have asked that member whether he stands by the position of Simon Power that where Australia the UK and the US go New Zealand will go unreservedly. I asked him three times. That member is a former trade Minister. Three times the cock crowed but that member did not answer. Three times he would not answer. 
If it is not National Party policy why does he not front up and distance himself from Mr Power? The National Party now has “Simon says” one day “hands on heads” and “Simon says” something else another day but we do not know what the National Party’s position is. As I said last night surely foreign policy and defence policy issues and concerns are rightfully determined by a sovereign nation like New Zealand on its own terms; not led by the nose. 
Historically at Gallipoli we followed others. That may have been the right thing to do historically. We followed our allies. We should still commit our support to our allies where appropriate. However I have to say today that the people of New Zealand have the choice of a Government—Labour—that will make those decisions based on the righteousness of the causes our own domestic requirements our own concerns on our own terms and not under pressure. On the other hand we have a National Party that says we will go regardless of whether the cause is righteous or honourable and regardless of what anybody else thinks internationally. It will be led by the nose. [ 
Interruption 
] For trade deals as my colleague John Tamihere says. 
Under a National Government if ever Simon Power were the Minister of Defence I would like him to front up to tell every Kiwi service person that they would walk up the ramp of the Hercules to go off to battle risk their lives and maybe not return. They would not know what they were fighting for because a National Government—if it ever got there—would never address that issue. 
The National Party will not debate economics or the best employment figures we have had since 1987. It will not debate the best OECD growth in the OECD rankings. The only issue it will debate is race. If we look at Don Brash the great economic genius—so he tells us—we see a man who has no charisma. He will not front up to debate economics he is hollowed out and is either agnostic or uncomfortable with every issue. We do not know what his position is. When I look at Dr Brash I am reminded of the wonderful quote from Winston Churchill about Clement Attlee who like Dr Brash was sadly lacking in charisma and a solid position. Winston Churchill said: “An empty cab pulled up outside the House of Commons and Clement Attlee got out.” I am sadly reminded of Dr Brash. 
Dr Brash rebuked Simon Power over the foreign and defence policy. As I said last night we have nuclear power wind power and now we have Simon Power. I want to reflect for a moment on the National Party’s foreign policy stance on Iraq. When we said that we would think this through we would make commitments but on our own terms the National Party flew into a frenzy because we would not engage blindly or unreservedly. National was hollowed out with frustration. Why? Not because of its hatred of tyrants and despotism because of a deep love and affinity for the Iraq people or because they were on the trail of weapons of mass destruction. National wanted to commit unreservedly not on our own terms simply to gain a trade deal from Uncle Sam. That is distasteful. Many Kiwis recognise that that is distasteful. 
Hon John Tamihere 
: Selling our sovereignty. 
CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: Selling our sovereignty. When a country says it will send troops unreservedly no matter what without question what that does is surrender sovereignty and surrender control of foreign policy and defence policy which is then dictated by others. More important it surrenders the command and control of its own troops. That has happened in our past and in some respects we have paid the price for it.