Sowry Roger: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Sowry Roger: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:612;Page:8870] 
2.  
Hon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader—NZ National) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she stand by her statement regarding legislation on the foreshore and seabed “I don’t think it would be possible to pass legislation this year.”; if so what date does she expect legislation to be introduced? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes and when it is ready. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: In light of the fact that no law is currently stopping the Maori Land Court from issuing freehold title to Maori what guarantees can she give the public that while she stalls by delaying the legislation we will not see title to the seabed or foreshore granted? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I understand it there is still an appeal on the books to the Privy Council on the matter by another organisation. Even if claims were to be heard it is expected that it would take some time to get anywhere near the end point the member is talking about. 
Nanaia Mahuta 
: How extensive has the Government’s consultation been on the foreshore and seabed issue? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It has been exceptionally extensive. Over 2000 written submissions have now been received from a wide range of individuals and organisations. I know that Government MPs have attended more than 45 public meetings in communities around the country. Ten formal hui have been held with Maori. Ministers have met with more than a dozen recreational and other user groups and are due to meet with Local Government New Zealand this week. We have distributed 15000 copies of the document for consultation and have received over 650 other requests for information. 
Dail Jones 
: Which current legislation does the Prime Minister expect will be amended—for example will the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act or the Territorial Sea Contiguous Zone and Exclusive Economic Zone Act be amended to give effect to the Government’s intentions? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The legislation to be amended will be that that requires change arising out of the refined proposal. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: As it has been indicated that 38 cases will be brought by various Maori iwi and hapu for the foreshore and apparently the Government’s approach is that because the Marlborough Harbour Board has brought a case to the Privy Council those cases will not proceed can the Prime Minister explain why the Government itself has not either joined the Marlborough Harbour Board’s case or itself appealed to the Privy Council? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government judged that this was an issue better sorted out at home. It is worth noting that since 1927 no Maori case that has gone to the Privy Council has succeeded from the Maori point of view and that the trend has been to send cases back to New Zealand. I might also say that the Marlborough Harbour Board went out of existence I think when the member was in the Government party. 
Metiria Turei 
: Why is there any need for any legislation other than a simple amendment to the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act to ensure that customary titles not be converted to fee simple titles and sold given that that is the Government’s stated bottom line and no tangata whenua have sought a fee simple title over the foreshore and seabed? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am not sure that I followed that question entirely but the member will know that from the way the Court of Appeal decision came out it would be possible to go all the way to fee simple title—something ACT seems to approve of. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Why is the Prime Minister hiding behind the pending appeal to the Privy Council by another party—to use her own words—rather than keeping her original promise to New Zealanders that she would legislate to ensure Crown ownership? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I have said on many occasions that was not an original promise from me. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why does the Prime Minister persist in denying that she—on day one of this issue after the Court of Appeal decision—said that the Government would clarify the position to ensure that the ownership of the foreshore and seabed lay with the Crown let it go for months and now somehow has every journalist lying and her telling the truth? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I have been very clear in this House over a number of months as to what I did say. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Did her attendance at the hui that discussed this matter inform her of the reasons that this legislation should not be introduced this year? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Just as the member could not attend a caucus today nor did I attend hui. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am just waiting. There will be people leaving the Chamber if I cannot hear a point of order in silence. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: That in no way answered the question. In fact the National Party caucus meeting is tomorrow and I will be attending it. I want to know whether her attendance at the hui helped to inform her as to her decision to delay the legislation. If she did not attend the hui then she can tell us. I am sure she was not hiding. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought the Prime Minister answered that in the second part of her answer. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You cannot possibly believe that there was a reasonable answer in the second part of the Prime Minister’s statement. I want to take you further to the question before that asked by Mr Peters which was a very simple question that asked the Prime Minister why she was not prepared to stick by her original statements when this issue first came to light for the public. Her answer was simply that she has been very clear about her statements. If the Prime Minister gives us answers like that and you accept them we might as well not turn up. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: On many occasions the Prime Minister has pointed out that she did not make the statement that members of the Opposition claim she made. Eventually that will get through to the Opposition. As for the other point made by the member the Prime Minister made it clear that she did not attend any hui and therefore—[ 
Interruption 
] I am sitting next to the Prime Minister and I heard her very clearly state that. As there was no hui she attended she is in the same position of ignorance as we all are about the National Party caucus today—what happened there. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will not warn people again about interjecting during points of order. Mr Peters has a perfect right to be heard in silence. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You will recall that the evidence for questions on this issue provided to you as Speaker—or to the Clerk—recited both the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General Margaret Wilson who is the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations as having said that. It was repeated by every journalist the next day but now when we provide you with evidence that that is the authority for us saying that she said it she gets up in the House today and says that she has been very clear about her statements. But she is not very clear as to whether she is a liar or the media are. That was my question. Did she tell the truth and are they lying or are they lying and she is telling the truth—or was it obvious to everybody? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The first part of the answer was arguably unnecessary but the Prime Minister did address the question in the second part of her answer. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Does the Prime Minister regret not being able to fit her attendance at any of the hui into her diary; if so what is she going to do about it now? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I have no regrets at all. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Prime Minister why when she and the Attorney-General were quoted the next day as having said that they would introduce legislation clarifying that the ownership of the seabed and foreshore lay with the Crown; and when every journalist reported that in her name and in Margaret Wilson’s name she has the audacity to come to the House now and deny that she said it in the first place—or was that just spin for the first 2 weeks to get the lie of the land? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am very clear about what I said which was that clarifying legislation would be required.