O'Connor Greg; Webb Duncan; Brown SimeonCHAIRPERSON (Greg O'Connor): Members when we suspended for the dinner break we were in committee on the Local Government (Electoral Legislation and Māori Wards and Māori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. We are debating Part 1 clauses 3 to 17 Amendments to Local Electoral Act 2001" and the Schedule.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you Mr Chair. I did speak before the dinner break and had a question there around localism that the Minister may want to answer. But I was chatting to my friend Peeni Henare. We noticed how complicated the legislation is to read and there are some flow diagrams in the documentation before us. I guess one of the questions I have for the Minister is why he's given essentially or required the rescission of Māori wards decisions unless there's a poll because you don't need a poll to rescind the Māori ward itself. And it would strike me that the status quo is there now and what we heard throughout the committee was that—I think without exception; I think I can say without exception—local bodies who had instituted Māori wards were not supportive of this legislation and wanted to keep the Māori wards. But they knew as Mr McAnulty said that if they went to referendum because of demography both of their constituencies and of the people who get out and vote that it would essentially be a veto on Māori wards.So the question is: why do we only have a referendum if we want Māori ward? Why is it that we can rescind them and we don't need to go to the electorate to change our electoral system? Now you can say that it's just going back; it's just returning to the status quo ex ante but the fact of the matter is that this reform has been put in place and the fact is that it was working. I mean this is a classic bit of politics because there was no problem to fix. The only people who really didn't like this were the National Party and the ACT Party. All of the people on the ground doing the mahi were very happy with it.So just looking at that flow diagram—and I'm looking at the select committee report on page 16 and it's got a couple of group one group twos. But both the councils can choose to rescind the Māori ward—so make that electoral decision without going to their constituency—but if they want to keep the Māori ward they have to have a binding poll at the local election on a yes/no basis. So why is it: get rid of them you don't need a poll; keep them you do need a poll?Hon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government): Thank you Mr Chair. Thank you for the member's two questions and I apologise; the dinner break interrupted my ability to answer his question around localism prior to the dinner break. And of course as I've outlined in my speeches on this issue that side of the House talks about localism but the localism stops at the council table. We've actually said localism should flow through to the voters the electors the people who the councillors and the mayor are meant to represent. And so that's why this Government is taking the action in relation to this bill and we believe that is consistent with giving local democracy the opportunity for local communities to have their say.The second question he asked in regards to the decision to rescind or disestablish otherwise there will be a referendum and that is an opportunity for the councils to make that decision as part of the process. They will be required to have a referendum. If they do not wish it to go to a referendum there is a choice that they can make which is to rescind or to disestablish which is simply a choice that they can make in order for them not to have to have a referendum. The alternative is that there will be a referendum and the public will ultimately have their say as part of that process."