McAnulty Kieran; Brown SimeonHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour): Thank you very much Madam Chair. Well we got there eventually. We got there eventually—the Minister of Local Government was very clear. In the end they actually hadn't talked to many councils at all in developing this policy certainly not those that are most affected.So that then leads to my next question because I think ratepayers in the likes of Buller Central Hawke's Bay Central Otago the Chatham Islands—I've only got down to C" there's a lot more councils that I could list—James Meager: Ashburton.Hon KIERAN McANULTY:—they deserve an answer. Because those ones—someone says "Ashburton". Ashburton the council that that member represents—the ratepayers that you represent under your plan will be facing bills of $9000 a year—James Meager: No.Hon KIERAN McANULTY: —for water. He says "No"? We'll wait and see won't we? It'll happen. This is what the Government members are going to have to justify to their constituents because they're selling them down a river. So this leads me to one of a few questions that I'm sure the member for Rangitata would like an answer to as well. Why on earth would the councils in wider Canterbury join with Ashburton when they have a small rate-paying base a massive roading network and they have huge costs facing them? Costs of service without reform in the Minister's own advice—for James Meager's constituents—is $8690 per year per ratepayer just for water; and he's about to vote for this repeal. I look at other councils like Chatham Islands. There's been no talk of the Chatham Islands. What this bill is proposing to repeal is a bespoke guarantee to the people of Chatham Islands that the Government will pay for their water services moving forward. I want an answer on behalf of the people of the Chatham Islands. What happens to a small council like the Tararua District Council who under the existing provisions will be joined up with those other councils alongside the Horizons Regional Council boundaries—the Manawatū-Whanganui Regional Council? I guarantee that the councils in that proposed cluster won't want to have a bar of Tararua a region with only 12000 rating units— $600 million they need to spend over 30 years. Why the hell would anyone voluntarily agree to join with them? It's just not going to happen. It's exactly the same for the councils in the West Coast. They're currently proposed to be with those in Canterbury and you hear the mayor of Buller Jamie Cleine a phenomenal mayor may I say—I've dealt with Jamie around the impact of weather on his region and the massive challenges they're facing. That community has a brilliant advocate in their mayor. He doesn't know what to do. He knows that if he just joins up with the other West Coast councils it's not going to work. He said so himself. He knows in his heart of hearts that the Canterbury councils won't want a bar of them. What guarantee can the Minister provide those councils? Because he didn't give one this morning on Morning Report when he was presented with those concerns from Mayor Cleine. All he got was dismissal. He was also asked—the Minister and this is my second question—around cost. The Minister said it would be cheaper under this Government's plan. When I asked the Minister in question time today we didn't get much of an answer. So my second question is quite simple: cheaper for who? Cheaper for ratepayers or cheaper for Nicola Willis? Because that is the guts of this I think. They are trying to save themselves money. They don't actually care about ratepayers because when the rubber hits the road they won't be in Government. They'll be able to push to the mayors and the mayors will say "We have no choice". The Government will say "This is local government responsibility". You can see it being set up now. So what are those small councils that no one wants going to do? Matt Doocey promised that you were going to help pay for them but that's being backtracked. So I want an answer to that. I want an answer around costs. I refer to the Prime Minister's answer: when asked by Newshub on the news bulletin tonight "What are your figures?" he walked away. So I'll ask the Minister. Here's your opportunity to justify it in the absence of select committee. The Minister must have got advice. What are your numbers to justify your claims?Hon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government): Thank you Madam Chair. There's been a number of questions which have been made by members. The Hon Ginny Andersen asked about wanting an exemption for Wellington. Well the entity hasn't even been set up. In fact under the legislation we're repealing those entities weren't going to be set up until mid-2026. So when she asked the question "What is going to happen over the next 12 months?" well the previous Government wasn't going to do anything over the next 24 months so she may want to report back to her constituents on that.The question from Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke in relation to their Treaty settlement this Act doesn't affect that at all in terms of the question that she asked and won't have an impact as she posed that question. That is exactly what this legislation does.And then in relation to the question from the Hon Kieran McAnulty we asked around the Chathams. The former Minister excluded the Chathams from an entity. This did not guarantee Crown investment in the infrastructure."