Penk ChrisCHRIS PENK (National—Kaipara ki Mahurangi): Thank you very much Madam Chair. I'd just like to pick up the discussion on the Schedule that we are examining in the bill the Local Electoral (Māori Wards and Māori Constituencies) Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the Minister in the chair the Hon Nanaia Mahuta who I would love to engage with on a couple of points within that legislation—clause 5 of the Schedule. I'd like to do a bit of a fine examination in both senses of the phrase if I can manage it in relation to clause 5 Demand for poll by electors under sections 19ZB"—Zulu Bravo not the radio station that will make some members opposite feel nervous—"and 19ZC"—Zulu Charlie—"before commencement date must be disregarded on commencement date". So there's a lot in that and I just want to break it down almost word by word because there's a lot in there that actually speaks to the overall themes of the legislation and what is at stake before this committee of the whole House of Parliament. The first is demand. So this is a demand for a poll and "demand" is not used obviously in any sort of ugly sense. It's just a technical term for saying something has been demanded—it's been asked for it's been requested—and there's a clear process at the moment for exactly the way that that would happen. But a demand is something that's wanted. It's something that's initiated in accordance with a particular process and what we're going to see as we continue to look at the wording of this provision is that that demand is to be disregarded. So something that already exists something that's in train something for which the wheels have been set in motion if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor is to be disregarded. So that's the first significant thing.The second is that it's a demand for a poll. Now a poll of course is a mechanism by which the will of the people or a subset of people is determined. Of course a poll can oftentimes mean an opinion poll in the way that's used for example between elections but a poll of course technically includes the act of an election itself—that is a poll. It's actually an opinion poll as well but it's one that has a particular weight and a particular meaning. So I think that it should give us pause in this committee that we are considering as a House passing a piece of legislation in which the demand for a poll—just to recap a legitimately requested exercise of the opinion of a group of electors—is to be disregarded.When I say it's to be disregarded I refer specifically to the fact that the wording is mandatory. It must be disregarded—there's no question. There are no criteria according to which it may or may not be disregarded. There's no sense of proportionality in the sense that if a large number of people perhaps a large proportion of people want a particular thing and have indeed demanded a particular thing there is no nuance. It is a very blunt instrument and the definitive nature of it in the context of a democratic mechanism such as a poll duly demanded or sought should give this committee pause for thought. My question to the Minister in the first instance would be to ask whether she is even mildly uncomfortable about that aspect of what sits before us.The second thing would be to dig just a little bit deeper into who it is that would be polled in such a scenario. The answer is of course in black and white in front of us—in highlighter yellow in my case because I've been preparing these remarks believe it or not. It's the electors. It's a poll of the electors and the electors are significant in a democracy because the electors are by definition the people and the people in a democracy are the "demos"; it is the rule by of and for the people and if we are to disregard the will of the people as is currently allowed as is currently provided for in the way this provision is asking us to then we are saying something that is very serious for any representative body such as this Parliament itself in that we are going to disregard the will of the people as already expressed or in the way that wheels are in motion for that to be expressed.We see further in the detail that the theme continues. Again in clause 5 "must not give notice [of the poll] … on or after the commencement date." So the somewhat arbitrary line that's drawn—and it's always the way in this House to be fair. Legislation has to have a commencement date. And to have a commencement date that says as a line in the sand that a thing was under way before that—[Bell rung]"