Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Norman Russel: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 13 June 2012. Volume:680;Page:2896. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
6. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister for Economic Development 
: Does he agree with the business group Pure Advantage that “countries that reduce the carbon dependency of their economies most quickly and develop carbon friendly technologies will be the most prosperous in the 21st century”? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister for Economic Development) 
: 
 No I do not agree that those things will necessarily follow. Although environmental issues are very important the countries that will be the most prosperous during the 21st century will be those that use their competitive advantages the most successfully. The proposition that New Zealand should throw away its own competitive advantages and focus solely on a small section of our opportunities such as those in the cleantech area as promoted by Pure Advantage is with respect quite unrealistic. We need to pursue all of our opportunities in a way that actually balances our economic and environmental objectives to provide jobs and sustain growth to the benefit of all New Zealanders.  
Dr Russel Norman 
: Given the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment’s projections that under current policies net greenhouse gas emissions will be 30 percent above 1990 levels in 2020 does the Government have a plan to actually reduce greenhouse emissions? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: Yes we do. The member may be aware that for example we have an emissions trading scheme which is active right now. We also have a range of initiatives including the discounts for electric vehicles and a number of other initiatives such as the insulation system for housing—a whole range of things. But I think in the wider sense of economic growth it is important to look at all of our opportunities. Yes I think we need all our businesses to act responsibly in an environmental sense including in terms of their carbon intensity but not in the way that the Pure Advantage group suggests which basically says to not advance industries that they describe as dirty. I think we have got past that point and actually the debate is maturing a bit where we actually talk about making sure that all of our industries are acting responsibly while they develop their competitive advantages. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Is the Minister aware that in 2007 Spain adopted just the sort of policy adopted by the Greens in that Spain’s Government guaranteed feed-in tariffs on investments in solar photovoltaic technologies—a scheme that has now collapsed leaving that Government with over €24 billion in debt—and is that the sort of model for prosperity that this Government is adopting? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I think the member makes a very fair point that those sorts of policies that attempt to subsidise to the extent that the Spaniards did actually can create some very real risks which were realised in the case of Spain as reported in the media in recent weeks. Spain of course is facing unemployment over 20 percent and a debt crisis of some margins as a result of factors including some of these policies and actually it is not a model for prosperity. There are a number of countries that are proposing big subsidies that are supported by Pure Advantage and frankly we do not support that approach. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Does the Minister agree with the London  
Guardian’s 
 “Greenwash” column quoted in the Pure Advantage report which says that “New Zealand was a friend to Middle Earth but it’s no friend of the earth.” 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: We often do not necessarily side with the  
Guardian  
newspaper in this country but the reality of it is this: New Zealand actually has to balance all of our opportunities. Unfortunately for the member and also for his colleagues in the Greens around 80 percent of our exports come from areas such as food food processing minerals and a whole range of things that are actually what are described by some environmentalists as dirty. They need not be but they are described by some of them as so. In fact this Government is focused on growing the economy doing it in a balanced way and encouraging jobs and growth. That includes areas like oil and gas exploration; that includes areas like intensification of agriculture. These are very important things that we need to see. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: How do the following policies of the Government help to reduce our carbon dependence: spending $1.5 billion on the emissions trading scheme to subsidise polluters delaying the introduction of a price on carbon to the industry that produces half of our greenhouse gas emissions removing the emissions cap from the cap-and-trade system and spending $12 billion locking us into a car-dependent future with the roads of national significance? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I think the member again demonstrates unfortunately a lack of economic reality. He is basically arguing to make New Zealand businesses uncompetitive in the wider world. Unfortunately the same member will then go on about how we need more jobs and more growth but he does everything he possibly can to restrict New Zealand businesses from encouraging jobs and growing. It is a completely contradictory position. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Will the Government listen to business leaders Rob Fyfe Sir George Fistonich Jeremy Moon Chris Liddell Geoff Ross Sir Stephen Tindall Rob Morrison Joan Withers and Mark Solomon who comprise Pure Advantage—who are the members of Pure Advantage—when these business leaders urge the Government to change direction and embrace the green economic opportunities facing New Zealand? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The Government welcomes all voices in the debate. It is important that we actually have this debate. But I would respond by saying that one of the founders of Pure Advantage the late and much missed Sir Paul Callaghan made I think exactly the point that I am seeking to make: you cannot focus on just a small subsection of what is possible in the world and try to make your success of that. In fact I quote from him: “This is exactly the mistake of the past 10 years prioritising according to some perceived international trend—then Biotechnology now Clean Tech. And the Green’s idea of a Clean Tech line-up is remarkable. … It is absurd in particular because we have proven particularly dreadful at developing [those sorts of industries]”. Look I am sorry but yes it is important that we have those sorts of debates but it is actually a negative thing for New Zealand to be saying this industry will save us that industry will save us or your industry should go and this one shall save us. It is a ridiculous debate. We need to encourage competitive businesses across all our industries to succeed in the world. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Why does the Government continue to attack anyone who suggests a green growth opportunity and to suggest as the Minister just did earlier that somehow the Greens are against business when it is business leaders themselves—some of our most prominent business leaders—who are the authors of this report and who are sending a message to this Government to embrace the green growth opportunities instead of picking winners in the extractive industries which is this Government’s actual economic policy? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: Again I am sorry but the member if he reads the report will realise that what these excellent business leaders are doing is arguing for subsidies for the industries that they like. That is what they are arguing for which is an entirely legitimate thing for them to do. But the member needs to open his eyes and see what they are requesting. All the countries in the world that he talks about and that are quoted in this report are making big subsidies to otherwise uneconomic industries and that is not a path to prosperity for New Zealand as Spain has shown. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Is it not the case that what his Government is doing is picking winners and subsidising the industries that he likes? In particular he is giving subsidies to the primary sector and the agricultural sector because they are not paying for the greenhouse gas emissions and he has given subsidies to the road transport sector by subsidising motorways. He is picking the industries he likes like the mining industry which he is subsiding through subsidising the seismic survey so he is picking the winners that he likes. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I think I have won the sweepstake that said the Greens’ policy of being pro-mining would not last a couple of weeks. I think that is what actually has happened. But again I am sorry the member is incorrect. What we are saying is that New Zealand’s businesses that export should not have to face costs that other countries’ businesses do not have to face. So when we are applying the emissions trading scheme we are being very careful to ensure that New Zealand’s export industries— 
Dr Russel Norman 
: It’s a subsidy. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: No it is not a subsidy— 
Dr Russel Norman 
: It is a subsidy. 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: Stop whining Mr Norman. It is not a subsidy; it is literally making sure that we are not putting burdens on our companies that other countries are not putting on theirs. In the case of the road transport industry—for the member’s benefit—it pays all its costs by actually paying the road-user charges and the levies into a fund that pays for the roading which frankly is a lot more than we can say for any of the schemes he promotes in public transport which are all subsidised by other road users. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he agree with Pure Advantage’s statement—from New Zealand’s leading business people—that “Despite our steadfast promotion of New Zealand’s clean green image … we continue to look for economic solutions from extractive industries such as coal and oil.” and why cannot we set our sights higher as a country than just more extraction and invest in the 21st century economy instead of the 19th century economy? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I presume that the member is not planning on flying anywhere soon because that is a very dirty industry by his standards. The reality is this again: we are encouraging competitive industries across a range of sectors. We are spending a lot of money investing in cleantech. In fact some of New Zealand’s leading businesses are being subsidised by taxpayers as we speak for encouragement of the cleantech industry. We are also investing in and encouraging the agricultural industry. We are also encouraging the food processing industry. We are also encouraging the extractives industry. This Government is focused on creating jobs and growth across the economy and frankly that is the reason the Greens will never be in Government because they do not promote that— 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: —they promote only their very small sector of the economy that suits them. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table a copy of the Pure Advantage report  
New Zealand’s Position in the Green Race 
. 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There is. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: I seek leave to table the report of the Government’s Advisory Group on Green Growth which is panned in the— 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: That is a public document. I do not think we will be seeking leave to table a public document.