Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 13 February 2013. Volume:687;Page:7788. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
8. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
 to the  
Deputy Prime Minister 
: Does he agree with the Salvation Army whose report states today that “Another year of minimal change in levels of child poverty was matched by little tangible progress being made by the Ministerial Committee on Poverty”; if not why not? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Deputy Prime Minister) 
: 
 No I do not agree and I am sure the member would be concerned that the detail of the Salvation Army report does not support the contention that child poverty is getting worse. In fact it shows four ways of measuring the percentage of children in poverty. On two measures the proportion of children in poverty has declined since 2007. On one other measure the proportion has remained the same and on a fourth it has risen slightly. The report also shows that the number of children living in benefit-dependent households has been going down despite the fact that the unemployment rate has risen slightly. This is a considerable achievement particularly for those people in those households who have worked so hard to attain for themselves more independence better incomes and better prospects for their children. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Given his drive for an output-focused Public Service what targets has the ministerial committee set on child poverty other than immunisation and rheumatic fever targets which do nothing to address material deprivation levels which have gone from 15 percent to 21 percent on his watch? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well the Government has set a range of targets through the results that it has published which include measures of things the member may regard as unimportant such as violence on children and rheumatic fever rates but we actually think those things are quite important as are early childhood participation rates particularly for those children whom the Labour Government’s policies left completely behind as it lifted investment in early childhood education. There are any number of ways of measuring the state of our children. On the Government’s measures we are making some progress. On the Salvation Army’s measures we are making some progress. There will be others which neither of us is using that will show up problems that we should be addressing in the future. But the Government is approaching it with some real focus in particular on getting the messy and confusing aspects of the way the Public Service works to focus strongly on their collective impact on changing the lives of individual children and families. We believe that over the next 2 or 3 years it will have significant impact. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I did make reference to targets around material deprivation and specifically obviously reference to income measures but if the Deputy Prime Minister’s answer to that is there are no targets in that area then that would be quite a simple— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I listened carefully. He mentioned a target around violence to children. Have you got further supplementary questions? 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Yes thank you Mr Speaker. How can he in the past have listed welfare reforms as a way to address child poverty when the reforms have seen an increase in the number of families having their benefits cut and an increase in benefit uptake all the while with fewer jobs for people to move into? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Well again we can get the detail about the numbers. The focus of the Government’s welfare reform is to spend more earlier—that is invest in assisting individuals and families off the path to long-term dependence. We are increasingly engaged with a wide range of community groups and individual communities to pursue that path. The Government has committed hundreds of million of dollars actually to upfront investment designed to reduce long-term dependency. It is a bit harder when the economy has the moderate growth that it has rather than 5 or 6 percent growth but that is not a reason not to do it as the Opposition keeps seeming to suggest—that because it is hard we should not have a go. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: Can the Deputy Prime Minister reference what part of the current welfare reform bill before the Social Services Committee invests upfront in moving the beneficiaries he has just mentioned into work other than sanctions and work obligation tests that already exist? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The funding arrangements are not in the piece of legislation; they are actually done through the appropriation process and the Budget. If the member looks at the last two Budgets and most likely at the next one she will see there is considerable investment. What is interesting is actually as the Opposition tries to generate criticism of the welfare reforms it is not getting any response in the wider community at all because the reforms make sense to everybody. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With all due respect what I was asking for was any kind of specificity from the Deputy Prime Minister whether it be in the legislation or even in a funding stream—just some specificity about where this upfront investment actually is. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: As I recall the question it was whether there was anything specifically in the legislation and the Minister said that no it was within the appropriation subsequent. So the question was adequately answered. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. During the last point of order two Government whips and three Government Ministers interjected. It is quite hard to hear today and if you allow people—at least five people in that block—to breach Standing Orders it will make it worse. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the honourable member for his assistance. It has been difficult today and there have been a number of interjections from all sides of the House. It would certainly assist my job if there was less interjection while we get through question time. 
Darien Fenton 
: Does he agree that raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and backing a living wage are two ways of reducing child poverty? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: The Government has raised the minimum wage I think each year it has been in office. But the fact is that whatever market income a household has is measured and where the household falls short of sufficient income to provide for the children in that household we have continued through the recession with the Working for Families scheme which puts I think $2.7 billion into those households. The good news for families is whether they earn $15 an hour or $30 an hour that scheme takes their circumstances into account and helps them with the cost of raising children. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Does he believe that things like reports alone will not solve a deep-rooted serious problem like poverty and that what is needed is a completely different approach that helps people to take control of their lives and break out from the cycles of dependency deprivation and desperation—in other words Whanau Ora? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I agree with the member that if committees reports and spending more money solved these problems then certainly the last Government would have solved them 50 times over. The member I think is quite right: the harder you look into the longstanding deprivation of some New Zealand families the more obvious it is that bureaucratic intervention by the Government can go so far but it has proven by the fact of historical failure not to actually change things enough for those families. At the moment Whanau Ora is the one programme that does appear to have the ability to reach those families in real deprivation and their surrounding communities and to catalyse a sense that the world and their lives can change. That is why we have continued to support its roll out and expansion. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Honourable members I can advise that apparently the microphone system is fixed so we do not need to rely on hand-held microphones. We move to question No. 9 in the name of Jonathan Young. 
Jonathan Young 
: Thank you Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: You should be all right with your microphone. [ 
Interruption 
] OK. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: We heard you Mr Speaker without a mike. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: OK.