Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:608;Page:5899] 
Questions to Ministers 
Finance Minister—Confidence 
1. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Has the Minister of Finance kept her informed of taxation matters and does he have her confidence? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport) 
 on behalf of the 
 Prime Minister 
: The Minister of Finance has the confidence of the Prime Minister. He is a hard-working conscientious and witty Minister and he keeps her informed on policy issues through the Cabinet process. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If that is remotely the case why was it that the Prime Minister in front of 500 Auckland business people last Friday walked off the stage when she was asked not once but twice to explain why it was that certain Maori enterprises received a special tax cut when the rest of business in this country did not; she could not explain it the first time or the second time or was she again informed but confused? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Given the fact I was not there that question should be addressed to the Prime Minister. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that answer is not satisfactory. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The Prime Minister was there; I personally was not there. I imagine what the Prime Minister was saying about the tax relationships related to Maori charities was that because of the fact of the arrangements of those charities and organisations there needs to be an arrangement for the low-income people who receive revenue from those organisations. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I was of a mind to do this before the question was asked but this Minister clearly does not know what he is talking about and I ask now for leave for the question to be deferred. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. Carry on with the supplementary question. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wonder whether I can help the House. I actually do know what happened and I am quite happy to— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Helpful though the member often is on this occasion that is not a point of order. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can I ask—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is the only warning I will give. When a person has been called to ask a question anyone else making any comment today will be leaving. I have called the Hon Bill English only. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Prime Minister believe that the $200 million levy on power consumers is indeed a tax? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister no. It is an insurance premium. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Prime Minister through this Minister: how did he end up answering that question which was put down on the Order Paper with 4 hours’ notice if he had no idea whatsoever what the issue of taxation was about or the circumstances of the Prime Minister’s very ignominious departure at a huge meeting of the chamber of commerce last Friday at lunchtime; if he had no idea why did he accept the job or was he just one of those losers? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The last part is to be ignored. The first part can be answered. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister given the nature of the question there was potentially a wide range of issues so as part of the advice I prepared a range of things. If the member had wanted a specific question answered he should have put it on the Order Paper. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Does the Prime Minister think it is satisfactory that the Prime Minister of New Zealand should speak to 500 business people at the chamber of commerce after the Budget and when asked when it was opened up to questions “As the Labour Government clearly favours lower taxes because the Labour Government has lowered taxes for Maori business when are lower taxes going to be offered to all other businesses?” and there was a second part to the question; “Does this Labour Government believe in one law and one citizen for all?” does she think she is up to the job when she is unable to answer the question then walks off in a huff? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister I am sure that the Prime Minister is up to the job. 
Mark Peck 
: Will the Minister confirm that no Maori taxpayer gets an advantage over and above any other taxpayer in New Zealand; will he confirm that it is simply that Maori authorities are being taxed at the rate of 19c in the dollar and that the wash-up will be tidied up when there is a final reconciliation at the end of the tax year? 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member cannot authenticate that statement. It is just not true. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: And the member cannot raise a point of order that is not one. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister I do recall some advice along those lines. 
Employment—Assistance 
2.  
GEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour—Wairarapa) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What is the Government doing to assist more New Zealanders into paid employment? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 The Government’s efforts have assisted a record number of people to move from unemployment into paid work. Unemployment now stands at 5 percent. There are under 100000 people on the main unemployment benefit and more New Zealanders are working than ever before. That is the result of a focus on training apprenticeships youth transitions partnerships with communities and business and moving people into real jobs with real wages. It is a story of success. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What reports has he seen on alternative approaches to the Government’s welfare policy? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Alternative approaches often rely on such policies as the work-for-the-dole scheme time-limited benefits vouchers for the poor and penalties targeted at low-income families. Those policies were prevalent during the 1990s and can be found in the previous National Government’s Code of Social and Family Responsibility which was rejected by a public that did not want to go down the road of beneficiary bashing. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: In the light of the fact that the number of invalid and sickness beneficiaries has skyrocketed under Labour and that the bill for those benefits is predicted to increase by $650 million by the time of the next election when will the Minister tell us what his solutions are? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The Budget figures demonstrate that $269 million less will be spent this financial year on working-age welfare than was forecast in 2001. When the National Party was in power working-age beneficiaries peaked at 410000 and they are now at 345000. That is a story of success. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question was about the fact that invalid and sickness beneficiary numbers are skyrocketing under Labour and asked what his solutions were for that. In no way did the Minister come anywhere near to addressing that question. He did not refer to sickness and invalid beneficiaries at all. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. I listened to the Minister’s reply carefully and he did address the question. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want to know how you can determine that the Minister addressed a question on sickness and invalid beneficiaries when he got up and talked about a completely separate group of beneficiaries the unemployed. On that basis he could be able to get up and talk about any group of beneficiaries regardless of what was asked. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If that was all that the Minister had done I would have called him up. He did actually address the question. 
Sue Bradford 
: What progress is the Government making on extending and improving the abatement regime which has such a negative effect on people moving between benefits and work and when does the Minister expect to be able to announce the shape of any likely reforms to the system if there are any? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: There has been excellent progress. The domestic purposes benefit reforms that we passed through the House late last year are now being implemented. We have seen a major change in the abatement regime whereby for example a person in a part-time job will retain up to $35 or $40 in his or her hand as a result of those changes. We will watch those changes closely during this year and as the Minister of Finance has signalled if circumstances carry on as they currently are with there being surpluses we may be able to move on abatement across a wider range of beneficiaries. 
Judy Turner 
: How does the Minister reconcile the paradox between the significant number of people who still remain on the unemployment benefit and the claims of skill shortages around New Zealand? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The paradox as the member puts it is simply one of often finding people in the wrong place with the wrong skills around the country. If we were to go to a place like Tasman-Marlborough today we would find that the register dropped to as low a level as 80 people over the summer period because of the success of the seasonal worker programme. If we have the right skills with people in the right places we will get them employed. 
Judy Turner 
: In the light of the fact that employment shortages and surpluses tend to be geographically concentrated does the Minister then agree that it makes sense to encourage internal migration in order to reduce those disparities and will he consider extending assistance to those who are prepared to move to take up work? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I do agree that it is an idea for people to shift although it is not as easy as it sounds. For example people are often tied into a community by the fact that they own a house and their ability to shift is therefore always subject to those kinds of conditions. However we already do offer relocation allowances. We often literally drive people from one town to another via a bus to ensure that they can take up a job so we are doing those kinds of things already and will do more. 
Judy Turner 
: Does the Minister agree that a form of compulsory training for the unemployed would be more effective than a compulsory work scheme given that it focuses on getting people into real jobs rather than keeping them occupied in building an autobahn from Auckland to Wellington? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I do. I seek leave to table  
Towards a Code of Social and Family Responsibility 
 which is the response to the report in 1998. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I seek leave to table the Work and Income evaluation report  
The Outcomes and Impact of Expanded CTF and Community Work 
. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Oil and Gas Reserves—Nationalisation 
3.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she have the full support of her executive for her comments that “The 1937 nationalisation of oil and gas reserves took place in the public interest”; if not why not? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON (Attorney-General) 
 on behalf of the 
 Prime Minister 
: Yes. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Prime Minister conscious of statements made by the Hon Tariana Turia that the Government’s stated position resulted in “a further loss of property right” and that “Maori had been short-changed.”; if she is conscious of those statements what action if any will she take in relation to them? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: Yes on behalf of the Prime Minister the Prime Minister is conscious of those statements and as she is reported as saying in the  
Dominion Post 
 Maori MPs have a right to advocate for their people but at the end of the day it is the Government that has to decide the position to be taken and it is that position that is to be supported. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I ask the stand-in Minister this— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Ask the Minister. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: The Prime Minister I presume. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes. Do not use the word “stand-in” please. There is a proper term for that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well I ask the acting Prime Minister this: given that in 1937 the Maori people from that area backed the Labour Party in the Maori seats why would the Maori members in her party now wish to go back on that support by their ancestors at that time? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister the Maori people support their members—which is indicated by the fact that all the Maori seats are held by Labour members—because the Labour Party was the only party that decided to redress the historical grievances and to enable those to be settled. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Can the acting Prime Minister tell the House whether there is one rule for all Cabinet Ministers or is this Government being inconsistent and are there different rules for Maori Cabinet Ministers? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister there is of course one rule for all Cabinet Ministers and those rules are applied flexibly and with an understanding of the position of the members. 
Metiria Turei 
: Does the Prime Minister consider that the interests of Maori are subservient to those of the oil and petroleum industry; if not will she enter into a good-faith dialogue with Nga Ruahine to work through the recommendations proposed by the tribunal? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister the whole process of nationalisation meant that all individual interests were subservient to the national interest. In respect of the second part of the member’s question the Government will consider the report and the recommendations from the tribunal. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
: Will the acting Prime Minister assure the House and the country that all New Zealanders will continue to be treated the same under the spirit of that 1937 legislation regardless of the outcome of today’s tribunal finding? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: Yes. 
Hon Bill English 
: What does the Prime Minister say to Maori who believe that Labour raised their expectations with quotes like this from the Prime Minister in relation to Maori mineral claims: “You couldn’t get anyone more sympathetic than me on these issues.”? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister I am not certain what the honourable member is referring to or what context that statement was made in. However the statement certainly rings true in terms of the record of this Government on the settling of grievances and also on the acknowledgment of social and economic deprivation through the provision of resources. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Could the acting Prime Minister tell us whether she thinks the tribunal’s about-to-be-announced decision is wrong in law; if it is not will she therefore change the law that gave the tribunal the right to make that decision which in legal terms is correct? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That seeks a legal opinion but the Hon Margaret Wilson can comment. 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister we are still considering the tribunal’s report which officially I understand may have just been released. But my understanding at the moment is that on the questions of law—I think that is what the member means—the report is correct in acknowledging that the nationalisation was perfectly lawful. We will look at the recommendations in terms of the other matters raised and after we have had an opportunity to consider them we will duly make a statement. 
Hon Bill English 
: Given the Prime Minister’s earlier answer on collective responsibility does she believe that the Hon Tariana Turia breached collective responsibility with her attacks on the Government’s position today; or does she believe the Minister did not breach it and the Government will not worry about it anyway? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: On behalf of the Prime Minister I do not believe that the Minister has attacked the Government. She has expressed a view representing her constituents and she has made that quite clear. 
Electricity—National Grid 
4.  
GORDON COPELAND (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Energy 
: Has the Government received any reports from TransPower New Zealand Limited regarding a need to upgrade the electricity transmission lines that comprise the national grid? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport) 
 on behalf of the 
 Minister of Energy 
: Yes. Transpower’s business is the maintenance of the national grid so it produces considerable information on investment requirements such as its asset management plan. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is the Minister concerned that without an urgent upgrade to the transmission lines many regions could suffer electricity supply problems in the near future; if he is concerned how would such an upgrade—estimated by some to cost as much as $1 billion—be paid for? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Minister: yes I am concerned about that matter. One of the problems in the past is that the market system has not been able to sort out what investments should be made and who should pay for them. The recently announced Electricity Commission will fix that. 
Darren Hughes 
: How will the decisions announced yesterday about the Electricity Commission help investment in the national grid? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Minister I reply: the commission will be responsible for establishing as a high priority a decision-making process in transmission pricing methodology that will enable necessary investment in the national grid to proceed. Under the current market arrangements as I have said there is no agreement in the industry about who is responsible for making those decisions about new transmission investments and who should pay. As I said the Electricity Commission will fix it. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Given that the Government has sat by for 4 years and seen Transpower argue that it is not responsible for new transmission lines where there is new generation or new need why does the Minister believe that this commission without specific statutory authority to do so will be able to make any difference at all? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: In fact for a number of years the industry was calling for self-regulation. It did not work. That is why in the interests— 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: They are Government SOEs. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes and in the interests of all New Zealanders being able to have hot showers the announcements were made yesterday. The important thing is that there will be legislative arrangements to allow for the announcements that were made yesterday to be implemented. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Today is a very unusual day—we know. There are a lot of Ministers not here or not able to answer their questions today so we are getting quite a number of transfers. But there is a point at which the Opposition’s right to question a Minister is completely abused and that point is when a Minister who is answering a transferred question simply does not know what he is talking about. I would like to seek leave— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member can seek leave but so far he has not raised a point of order. He can now seek leave. What does he want to seek leave to do? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is on a point of order. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Yes. What I want to say to you is that you can stand up and tell me that I am not making a point of order but the reality is that the Standing Orders require the House to behave always in an orderly fashion. They also require that the House is a place of relevance and that in question time there is an opportunity for Opposition parties to put Ministers under some scrutiny. 
 I suggest that that concept of the Standing Orders becomes abused when we get a Minister who simply does not know what he is saying and has no idea of the question that is being asked of him. For him to answer a question— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will please be seated. He has gone on for far too long. The member has made his point. I adjudge that the Minister did address that particular question as he did the previous two. Does the member want to seek leave for something? 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Yes I do. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well please seek it now. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I seek leave for this question to be held over until the Minister of Energy can answer it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave has been sought for the question to be held over. Is there any objection? There is. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Did the Minister read the reports from Transpower to the Minister of Energy following both the 1999 and the 2002 general elections and did the Minister of Energy ever read the report to the Minister of Energy of June 2000 on the inquiry into the electricity industry; if so why on earth did he not heed the recommendations on what was required for Transpower which could have averted the current crisis we are facing? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Minister I can say that the Minister most assuredly did read those reports and the point— 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Did he understand them? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes he did understand them. He understands them better than that member who says the solution is more market. He is the only person in New Zealand virtually who believes that somehow the market is going to solve the cold showers and blackouts in New Zealand. What the Minister announced yesterday was a comprehensive plan to get the problem of capacity resolved by setting aside some capacity. The vast majority of people now in New Zealand will be proud of the fact that we are finally resolving the problem. More market ain’t going to do it and as long as the ACT party keeps doing that it will always be in Opposition. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That answer was too long. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I seek leave of the House to table the report to the Minister of Energy commissioned by the Minister on the inquiry into the electricity industry of June 2000 with reference to the recommendation for transmission calling for more market. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Has the Minister seen reports from Orion the Christchurch lines company that show it has managed to defer an $80 million transmission upgrade and postpone $100 million in other expenditure through cost-effective demand management and what steps is he taking to ensure that Transpower takes a similar approach throughout the country? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I am sure that the Minister has read those. Of course demand management is an important aspect of Government energy policy. The problem is though that it does not resolve the dry-year problem we are facing at the moment. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is the Minister aware that one of the other major impediments to upgrading the national grid transmission lines is that under the Resource Management Act Transpower has to seek the consent of every local authority the lines run through from one end of the country to the other and that an objection by just one of them can derail the whole process; if so does he have plans to address this situation? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I am aware that there are some issues with the Resource Management Act. The Minister for the Environment is currently looking at a range of issues to do with this but I think it is fair to say that even under the current arrangements a lot of new generation has been approved under the legislation that some people are criticising. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Does the Minister stand by his answer to the Hon Ken Shirley today when he said that the Government announcement yesterday had fixed the problem of blackouts and cold showers for New Zealand; and does that mean that there will be no such thing and the crisis is all over this year? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: One of the things that New Zealanders have been asking for is a solution to the problem and the Government is confident that the problem of capacity particularly in dry years and the inability to be able to plan for that will be resolved by the announcements that were made by the Minister yesterday. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. He may well have addressed the question by your ruling but the question was specifically about this year and we never got an answer. The public would like to know. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All I can say is I heard him say twice that he was confident the problems had been resolved. I would have thought that was addressing the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Supplementary question Jeanette Fitzsimons. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am sorry; I would have given Mr Peter Brown one. 
Peter Brown 
: This is a very important question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Does the member want a question? 
Peter Brown 
: I want a point of order. I want to point out to the Minister that he has said something quite different today from what his Minister said yesterday. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Would the member please ask the question. He has the opportunity; he has not had a question yet. 
Peter Brown 
: The Minister has told this House— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Would the member start with a question. 
Peter Brown 
: I am not asking a question. I have a point of order. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that is a way of getting extra work. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not sure whether you can do anything about this—and I will try to put it more briefly than Mr Brownlee—but we do have a problem. We have an acting Minister and we have to assume—as an exercise so to speak—that he knows everything the Minister knows yet he is giving us answers that are contradictory. He has actually made an attack on me saying that no one is asking for more market. I picked up the report and it actually states that part of the problem is that Transpower does not face effective competition. It is quite clear to me that the acting Minister—[ 
Interruption 
] The Minister may have but he clearly has not read this report. I think that the Government should put this question and the next one to the Minister of Energy on to a day when the Minister of Energy has returned. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let us put it this way: we put the question of leave to the House and the leave was denied. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Is the Minister aware that the transmission lines supplying the West Coast are already running close to full capacity and will have to be upgraded before the region is left without electricity all together; and is he also aware that such an upgrade will mean electricity pylons will have to cross the Department of Conservation estate whereas the region’s electricity needs could be serviced by the proposed Dobson hydro scheme and the surplus exported on existing lines to the rest of the nation? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: On behalf of the Minister: yes I am aware that there is transmission loss. It is just a by-product of the transmission system. Of course what has to be weighed up are the long-term needs of energy versus some of the environmental implications which the member has raised. The Government is actually currently addressing those kinds of issues. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That answer was very interesting but it bore no resemblance to the question that was asked. The question was quite clear. It asked: did the Minister know that the West Coast line was near capacity—that has nothing to do with transmission loss—and did he also know that if the Dobson project went ahead it would not need to be upgraded. Instead we were told an interesting scientific fact that there is energy loss every time it goes over a transmission line. That is not an answer. It is not even an attempt at an answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not correct. He did address the question; he did not satisfy the member but the answer is not going to always. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That may all sound well and good and fine except that this House has been asked twice for leave to have a Minister namely the Minister of Energy answer questions that this Minister clearly cannot and both times his colleagues have declined that request which would sound to be reasonable and fair in that case. This Minister should have to sustain a whole lot of questions to determine whether he is fit to do the job at all. Otherwise we are just wasting Parliament’s time. They were asked fairly: how about we put it off for the next time the Minister is here and both times in their rabid fashion they declined it. 
Hon Mark Burton 
: The facts are simple. The members have asked the questions; the Minister has provided satisfactory answers. You have ruled— 
Peter Brown 
: Look at the  
Hansard 
! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is a point of order not questions and answers. 
Peter Brown 
: Well we have to get something sensible. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is Mr Brown’s final warning—or he will go. I said that during a point of order no one comments and that includes him. 
Hon Mark Burton 
: You have ruled Mr Speaker that the Minister has addressed the questions. There the matter must end. Members cannot relitigate your rulings. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All I can say is that any member is entitled to seek leave and they have and the leave has been denied and that is also entitled to be done. 
Peter Brown 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wish to point out to this House that it is a serious situation that we are in in this country. The Minister of Transport in all sincerity has given an answer today but it is totally in conflict with what the Minister of Energy said yesterday. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is a matter of opinion and that is not a point of order. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can you clarify this for us. Does a Minister answering a question in the House speak for the Government? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Yes he does. He has a range of information given to him on behalf of the Minister’s office and of course the Government has to stand by the answers given. The member I think was well aware of that fact. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Is the Minister aware that economic growth has continued in Christchurch while peak electricity demand has stayed constant thanks to demand management efforts by Orion and that in its own words prices are lower and resource use is more efficient; and what is he doing to encourage a similar energy-efficiency culture on the West Coast? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I am certainly aware of economic growth in that particular part of the country. I am not particularly aware of the correlation the member raises but I am aware of the point she is making about energy efficiency and economic growth. The Government as the member knows has a comprehensive plan for energy efficiency. 
Question Time 
Hon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader—NZ National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I waited until the end of the question because I did not want to disrupt it. You have given a very clear ruling about members not being able to use computers—PCs—or electronic gadgetry in the House. I ask whether you would also revisit the issue of knitting because the member for Hamilton East Dianne Yates sits and knits during question time. I think that we have got to the stage where that does bring the House into disrepute. Members are not allowed to sit in the Chamber and use a computer as part of their work—they are not allowed to access any research they have on a computer because they cannot have a computer in the Chamber—but if a Government member sits and knits then that I think does bring the place into disrepute. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has raised two issues. The first issue concerns laptops in the Chamber and of course they are permitted provided that they are battery powered and remain silent except for a beep when turning them off. There has never been any objection to that. I have the ruling here which the member can have. Secondly as far as knitting is concerned I have made a ruling that any Minister in the chair cannot knit but at other times I have not ruled that matter out. 
RON MARK (NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you for clarifying that. Can I just have confirmation; one of my hobbies is restoring an Austin A35 and I have a carburettor that needs working on. Is it OK if I bring it in here and work on it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that is taking the time out of the House on something that is irrelevant. I have said that if it is silent yes. 
Hon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader—NZ National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think you might want to reconsider that—I am not sure whether repairing a carburettor would be silent but it would be messy. I am asking whether you could reconsider your ruling on knitting—I am not asking for a ruling now—because I think that particularly during question time a time of a lot of importance when the gallery is full for the member for Hamilton East Dianne Yates to sit there and knit brings the House into disrepute. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Put it this way. I would be very happy for any member of the House to write to me about that matter or any other matter and it will get immediate consideration. As far as Mr Mark is concerned I am not an engineer and I do not quite know what he was meaning but if he is reasonable and fair then of course we will allow his request. 
Te Mangai Paho—Maori Sportscasting International 
5.  
RODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: Since receiving from me the emails between Te Mangai Paho’s Mr Tame Te Rangi and Maori Sportscasting International what action has he taken and does he now accept that Mr Te Rangi accepted “payment for services”? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 I sought information from the Chief Executive of Te Puni Kokiri on the origins and authenticity of the email. The board will be reporting within the next few days. 
Rodney Hide 
: Is he aware that a former Maori Sportscasting International employee has told Te Puni Kokiri and Treasury that he saw an email last year from Mr Tame Te Rangi to Mr Waaka stipulating that for a weekend Mr Te Rangi wanted a rental car all his meals paid for accommodation taken care of and $500 cash and could he explain to the public of New Zealand why he has not called in the police to investigate that case of bribery and corruption? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: The first three parts of that member’s question I read in the email he gave to me yesterday. There was no reference to $500 cash. I assure the member that the board is about to report independently on the matter. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. We have a difficulty in that the Minister did not address my question. What he did was address my primary question. I asked him whether he was aware that a former employee had spoken of another email to both Te Puni Kokiri and Treasury. I have not had an answer to that. He has not addressed it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Another email? 
Rodney Hide 
: That’s right. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Was the Minister aware of another email? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No. 
Mahara Okeroa 
: When will the external review be completed on Te Mangai Paho? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I understand that the review is nearing conclusion and the board of Te Mangai Paho will be provided with a copy of the report early next week. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Can the Minister explain how Te Mangai Paho came to fund Mr Hemana Waaka’s two companies to the tune of $613000 in one year while Mr Waaka was already employed full time as cultural adviser at the Department of Corrections and can he assure the House that Te Mangai Paho was not influenced by Mr Waaka’s claims that he had friends in high places in the form of the Hon Dover Samuels and the Hon John Tamihere? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I cannot assure the member of that. However I can remind him again that the independent investigation into the activities of Te Mangai Paho staff is nearing conclusion. Appropriate action will be taken when the report is received. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can the Minister remember the very scurrilous attack led by the Labour Party on one Tukoroirangi Morgan in respect of a pair of underpants he bought with his own money in contrast with this case which demonstrates significant misuse and abuse of public funds; and is it not fair to ask that the Minister not being aware of it even today should resign? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I am more than aware of the attack on Mr Morgan. I have no intention whatsoever of resigning as those people who developed  
Ka Awatea 
 at that time did not do what we are doing now. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a fact that those who developed  
Ka Awatea 
 were never involved in corruption or misuse of public funds. In fact it was an inspiration for Maoridom. However my point is this. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Well what is the point? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: That answer has nothing to do with the question whatsoever. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the Minister did address the question. In fact he gave a direct answer. 
Rodney Hide 
: Can the Minister confirm that Te Mangai Paho has kept on funding Mr Hemana Waaka’s two companies when Mr Waaka himself had been suspended from his job at the Department of Corrections after being arrested and charged for declaring there was a bomb in his colleague’s bag when boarding an aircraft at Auckland airport the very day after September 11 and that Mr Waaka himself wrote to Mr Tame Te Rangi and to Mr John Tamihere thanking them for their character references believing it to be their intervention that saved him from being convicted? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I acknowledge some of the points made by that member. A full Treasury-led investigation into the overall matter is nearing conclusion. As Minister I will await the report before making final conclusions. 
Rodney Hide 
: I seek leave of the House to table a  
New Zealand Herald 
 article dated 14 September 
. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table an article in the  
New Zealand Herald 
. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Rodney Hide 
: I seek leave of the House to table a letter from Mr Hemana Waaka to amongst others Mr John Tamihere and Tame Te Rangi dated 29 April 2002 thanking them for their character references. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Rural Communities—Government Policy 
6.  
IAN EWEN-STREET (Green) 
 to the  
Minister for Rural Affairs 
: What steps is he taking to ensure that Government policy takes into account the views of rural communities? 
Hon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Rural Affairs) 
: 
 I ensure that my Cabinet colleagues and Government agencies consult rural communities as part of the normal process of policy development. In addition the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry provides advice to other departments and to the Government on the likely impact of policy decisions on rural communities. 
Ian Ewen-Street 
: Will the Minister respect the views of the 80 percent of farmers who do not want to grow genetically engineered organisms (GE) on their farms and the 50 percent of farmers who want the moratorium extended beyond October as identified by the findings of the recent Lincoln University study; if not why not? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: Through the Royal Commission on Genetic Modification inquiry the Government had the most extensive consultation process possible with all New Zealanders and indeed people from outside New Zealand. The outcome of that investigation was an advice to proceed with the use of the technology but with caution. We prefer considered advice to that of ad hoc responses to polls which can too easily be manipulated to produce misleading figures. 
David Parker 
: What recent feedback has the Government had from rural community representatives on some of its Budget initiatives? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: Following the delivery of the Budget last week the Government received extremely positive reporting on among other things our increased spending on biosecurity and trade development. It is fair to say that rural New Zealand thinks it has the best Government it has had for a very long time. 
Shane Ardern 
: In the light of that answer what is the Minister’s view on the closure of six Taranaki rural schools with rolls of up to 80 children and of an undecided number of schools in Otago and Wairarapa; the slashing of Targeted Funding for Isolation for rural schools; and further reviews under way resulting in more closures of rural schools with a proven high academic outcome and proven sustainable roll numbers? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: Rural communities are always consulted when the Ministry of Education recommends that schools be closed. We always treat local views with respect and they do frequently result in considerable changes in policy. The Labour Government policy of course is aimed at achieving the best education outcomes possible for all New Zealand children. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: What are the views of rural communities towards the adequacy of the formula for Targeted Funding for Isolation for rural schools and can the Minister explain how the Government has taken regard of these views? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: It has been my observation and experience from responses to the changes that those who gain from the changes think they are good and those who lose from the changes think they are not very good. 
Ian Ewen-Street 
: Why does the Minister not respect the views of rural communities in New Zealand as his counterparts have in the state Governments of Tasmania Victoria New South Wales South Australia and Western Australia which have listened to their rural communities and extended the moratoria on GE crops by 3 years? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: I have already answered the member’s question on genetic modification but I assure him that the overwhelming weight of evidence given by representatives of rural communities to the Government through all the sources and routes available to them has been in support of the careful proceeding with genetic modification technology. 
Farming—Sustainable Farming Fund 
7.  
JANET MACKEY (NZ Labour—East Coast) 
 to the  
Minister for Rural Affairs 
: What reports has he received on the Government’s decision to extend the Sustainable Farming Fund for another 3 years? 
Hon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Rural Affairs) 
: 
 The response to the announcement that the Sustainable Farming Fund was to be extended has been overwhelmingly positive. Applications have already been received for the next round and those applications close on 6 June. 
Janet Mackey 
: What has the Sustainable Farming Fund achieved so far? 
Hon JIM SUTTON 
: In the last 3 years 184 projects have been provided with grant support from the fund. An independent evaluation of the fund has demonstrated that the fund is achieving its intended purpose of supporting community-driven projects aimed at improving financial and environmental performance of land-based sectors. 
Treaty of Waitangi—Oil and Gas Nationalisation 
8.  
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ) 
 to the  
Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations 
: Under what circumstances does she consider that the national interest should override rights under the Treaty of Waitangi and does she agree with the Prime Minister’s reported rejection of a treaty claim in respect of oil and gas on the grounds that: “The Crown considers it [nationalisation] still to be in the public interest”? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) 
: 
 I consider that the national interest by definition includes the interests of all members of our community including the treaty partners; and yes I agree with the Prime Minister’s reported statement. 
Stephen Franks 
: If there is a new principle of the treaty that claims are not valid if they are not in the public interest why not apply it immediately to claims for native plants and animals foreshore and riverbed radio spectrum taniwha under the motorway and partnership veto powers of elected local governments; and if the public interest is not the overriding new principle what treaty principle is the Prime Minister using? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: I was not aware that there was a new principle. The Prime Minister was in fact articulating that there is a national interest that overrides all other considerations. 
Dave Hereora 
: Do the Waitangi Tribunal’s recommendations in respect of petroleum mean that existing treaty settlements will need to be reopened? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: No. First while the Government does respect the role of the Waitangi Tribunal its recommendations are not binding on the Crown. Secondly the settlement of historical claims is final and comprehensive and this has been agreed to by iwi and is reflected in the settlement legislation. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm or otherwise a statement she has just made that it is now Government policy that if the Government decides something is in the national interest or perhaps in its own political interest it will override the treaty? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: No the reference for this debate relates to the nationalisation of petroleum so all the comments have been made in that context. 
Waste Management—Waste Strategy 
9.  
Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (NZ Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for the Environment 
: What progress has been made towards implementing the New Zealand waste strategy? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 Very good progress has been made. Most councils have adopted the strategy. We are working with the private sector to help meet the strategy’s targets and last month we launched the Reduce Your Rubbish campaign aimed at encouraging individual people to reduce waste. 
Dr Ashraf Choudhary 
: What evidence has the Minister seen indicating that the targets in the New Zealand waste strategy are being met? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: The 2002 landfill review and audit shows that over 200 sub-standard landfills have been closed and that remaining landfills will be closed or upgraded in order to reduce their harmful effects. That indicates we are making excellent progress towards achieving our goal of closing or upgrading landfills by 2010. 
Ian Ewen-Street 
: Given the statement by Barry Carbon Chief Executive Officer of the Ministry for the Environment to the Local Government and Environment Committee that the only two quantifiable targets in the waste strategy—their targets that relate to the recycling of organic waste and access of the population to recycling services—were unlikely to be met does the Minister think that that represents good progress? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: I refer to the introduction of kerbside recycling as a target. As it was introduced in Dunedin last month 90 percent of the population now has access to community recycling. So I think we are well on the way to reaching the targets set out in the New Zealand waste strategy of 95 percent accessibility by December 2005. 
Question No. 10 to Minister 
GERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National—Ilam) 
: 
 Given the difficulties the House had with question No. 4 I feel obliged to appeal to the better judgment of Government members and seek leave for this question to be held over to the next day on which the Minister of Energy will be able to answer it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? Please ask the question. 
Electricity—Consumer Levy 
10.  
GERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National—Ilam) 
 to the  
Minister of Energy 
: Does yesterday’s announcement that electricity consumers may soon pay a levy to fund reserve generation which would be made available at a higher price to flatten out price spikes in dry years mean consumers will pay twice for that reserve electricity; if not why not? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport) 
 on behalf of the 
 Minister of Energy 
: No. The Electricity Commission levy will recover the cost of securing reserve capacity minus the revenue from any electricity sold from the reserve generation. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: How can the Minister of Energy say “No” when consumers will be paying some $200 million of extra tax levied for reserve generation and the Minister’s statements yesterday made it very clear that should that reserve capacity be required the electricity produced from it would be made available in dry years at a much higher price? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: As the Minister pointed out yesterday one of the problems is trying to get generators to produce capacity for the dry years because nobody wants to take the risk when it may well rain. Therefore the problem is capacity in a dry year. What the measures announced yesterday are about is ensuring there is an insurance premium so that when those dry years occur we have the ability to bring that on stream. It is really interesting to know that the Consumers Institute representing consumers is cautiously optimistic about the plan. 
H V Ross Robertson 
: Why is the Government confident that the cost of securing adequate reserve generation will be less than half a cent per unit on the price of electricity? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The cost is low because the reserve generation portfolio will comprise relatively low capital cost plant plus heavily depreciated old plant. The fuel though costly will be rarely used. 
Peter Brown 
: Is the Minister aware that the Minister of Energy stated yesterday that the announcement he made would have no impact whatsoever on this year and that New Zealanders must continue to save; noting that and noting we are also short of generation capacity will the Minister tell us whether the Government is considering any initiative financial or otherwise that will encourage the development of increased generation capacity in order that New Zealanders can have an abundance of power and thereby reduce the likelihood of calling on that reserve capacity? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes I am aware of the comment made yesterday. This is designed to fix the problem in the long term. Of course in the immediate term people in New Zealand are still required to save and the 10 percent target for New Zealanders is still a live target. As far as incentives etc. in the future are concerned there have already been a number of announcements from the Minister—for example encouraging wind power. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Why is the Government refusing to allow this levy to purchase contractually guaranteed specific-demand reductions as well as increases in capacity and what analysis has been done to show which would be cheaper for the country? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: This is a specific targeted measure for dry-year capacity. That is the issue and as the member knows there are a number of other initiatives aimed at energy efficiency. However this is a specifically targeted issue aimed at dry-year problems. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: If the Minister stands by his statements to the House yesterday that he expects some 700 megawatts of normal generation to come on stream in the next 3 years and that there will be additional reserve generation during the same period of time how will he differentiate between normal generation and reserve generation? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: That will be the job of the Electricity Commission. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can you tell us what our remedy is now that we have conflicting answers given by the Minister to questions Nos 4 and 10? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: All I can say to the member is that if he cares to write to me about the matter there is a perfect way in which he can do so. I will then give it very careful consideration. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The issue at hand is whether this country is still in the grip of an electricity crisis. In question No. 4 the Minister said: “No it’s all over. We’ve fixed it.” 
Hon Paul Swain 
: I did not say that. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I tell the Minister to read his  
Hansard 
. Then in question No. 10 in answer to Peter Brown he said exactly the opposite. It may be in the country’s interest if the Minister were given a moment to clarify the matter. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. That is a debatable issue and there is a Budget debate coming up very shortly. 
Crime—Asian New Zealanders 
11.  
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Police 
: Does he agree with the comments of the Prime Minister made in respect to an oral question last week: “I can say that for Asian New Zealanders the rate of crime is actually rather low.”? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police) 
: 
 Yes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If the Minister is able to say that how does he account for Senior Constable Steve Lamb being hauled over the coals in Auckland as we speak because he said he would be far too busy to answer normal calls because of theft fraud fighting assault intimidation vehicle crashes disorder domestic stabbings and a sideline of extortion and weapon-carrying on the part of Asian students in Auckland and one kidnapping a week as reported in today’s and last week’s  
New Zealand Herald 
; how does he account for that when he gets up and repeats the Prime Minister’s bland line that Asian crime is not up at all? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I have been advised that Senior Constable Lamb has stated to the office of the commissioner that on average he has attended fewer than one incident a week so far this year where the offender the victim or the witness has been identified as Asian. 
Ron Mark 
: When collating crime statistics by ethnicity why does the Minister target Maori Indians and Negroes whilst lumping all other races together under such broad group headings as “Asiatic” “Caucasian” “Pacific Islander” “Others” “Unknown” and “Null Ethnicity” and how can he justify his focus on Maori Indians and Negroes when Maori apprehensions have increased by only 3.3 percent and Asiatic apprehensions—to use his own figures—have increased by a massive 77 percent? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: I advise the member that those are the terms the police have been using for a long while. I believe that the term “Negro” is not in common usage nowadays by any group other than the police and I hope they will change that shortly. 
Martin Gallagher 
: Is it possible that Asian people in New Zealand do not report all the crimes committed against them? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: Yes and there are many reasons for that including a lack of knowledge about the New Zealand system of policing which may be quite different from what they have experienced in their country of birth. Sometimes there will be a concern about having their own activities investigated as the member of the Opposition will know himself. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why is it that the Minister gets up and gives those assurances when he knows full well from his own statistics—if they are properly collated and analysed—that for example in dishonesty crime Asian crime is up by 200 percent compared with Caucasian crime being up by 4.8 percent Maori crime being up by 5.4 percent and Pacific Islander crime being up by 0.5 percent and on the question of extortion-type crimes and kidnapping the Asian level of criminality is up by 760 percent; why would he want to deny those facts? 
Hon GEORGE HAWKINS 
: The facts are that the Asian population is 6.6 percent of New Zealand’s total population and it commits 2.1 percent of the crime. I am concerned that the member is attempting to cast aspersions on a generally law-abiding community when its offending by percentage represents half that of the rest of the population. 
Maori—Government Relationship 
12.  
Hon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader—NZ National) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: Does he have any concerns regarding the Government’s relationship with Maori given that Whanganui River Trust Board chairman Archie Taiaroa said yesterday that Maori were losing confidence in their MPs and “Maori are saying ‘Where are the politicians?’ I know our people are wanting them to come out and start talking.”; if not why not? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 There are approximately 15 Maori MPs in the House at the moment. This Government has a good relationship with Maori and as with all relationships we must keep working to ensure that the relationship is strong and beneficial to all involved. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Does he support the Government’s stated position that the nationalisation of oil and gas reserves took place in the public interest and does he believe that this position provides the “best benefit for Maoridom”; if not why not? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: In the sense of the historical redress claims related to petroleum those things are being worked on. The framework for contemporary settlements is an issue that we are continuing to work on as a Government. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked a very specific question and no doubt it was for his Maori seat colleagues as well. He was asked what his position was and he did not in any way address that issue. It is a highly political question I know but he is bound to answer it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister was asked a specific question. I would like him now to address that question. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Yes and we are considering the details in the report that has just been presented. 
Nanaia Mahuta 
: Does the Minister think that MPs should be vociferous in advocating on behalf of their electorates? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: On behalf of all the Maori members seated in this House today I say that they have to be vociferous and that they are hard-working conscientious members. 
Stephen Franks 
: Is it fair to summarise the debate that there may have been between those hard-working vociferous members as being about whether the Prime Minister was right to state a principle that means “That was then; this is now. This is embarrassing so let’s move on.”? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: No. Can I repeat that we have a proud record of relationships with regard to the historical redress claims. The contemporary issues are things that we as a Government are working on at this stage. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Given his earlier answer why did he refuse to appear on Linda Clark’s radio programme this morning regarding the petroleum claim and does he believe that his Associate Minister of Maori Affairs Tariana Turia should have broken ranks against the Prime Minister; if so why? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I have a well-set diary over a long period of time and Minister Turia did not break ranks.