4. Question No. 4—FinanceNICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 4—Finance4. NICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement yesterday that the operating allowances are designed to enable us to achieve particular fiscal goals. We have been able to achieve those goals including keeping debt low and including our return to surplus" and how have those goals changed since he became Minister of Finance?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): In answer to the first part of the question yes. In answer to the second part of the member's question I announced the changes to the Government's fiscal rules ahead of Budget 2022. The first of those is to maintain an operating balance before gains and losses surplus between 0 and 2 percent of GDP on average over time in order to allow us to respond to economic shocks as the situation requires but also ensuring that day-to-day spending is not adding to net core Crown debt over time. The second rule is to keep net core Crown debt below a ceiling of 30 percent of GDP on the new debt measure. As I said to the member in my response to her question yesterday even though Budget allowances have from time to time been updated in light of events and additional forecasts this is consistent with our overall strategy and is something that the Government should do in order to make sure that spending decisions remain consistent with our fiscal rules.Nicola Willis: Does he still agree with the fiscal goal outlined by Grant Robertson MP who in his 2017 Budget Responsibility Rules stated "For the last 20 years core Crown spending has been around 30 percent of GDP and we will manage our expenditure carefully to continue this trend."?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That very insightful comment from that member all those years ago is one that is still the goal. However as the member is well aware events occur—events like COVID or events like the global financial crisis (GFC) all of which require Governments to respond. The member needs to reflect that if she doesn't believe that spending should have got to the levels that it did during COVID be upfront with New Zealanders and tell them what wouldn't have happened. Was it no wage subsidy? Was it no funding for the health system? New Zealanders needed a Government to step up and respond and we did it.Nicola Willis: Can he confirm that Government spending has not just exceeded that goal in the COVID lockdown years but every year since 2020 and is forecast to fail that goal for each of the next four years and why is he now prepared to fail what he once believed was a core part of Budget responsibility?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As the member knows what the Budget forecast shows is that we will return to around 31.5 percent as core Crown spending. The decision that the member could make if she were in the position to do so to click our fingers and say we're going to go to 30 percent would have a dramatic impact on the services that New Zealanders rely on. If the National Party wants to campaign on cutting funding for health and cutting funding for education that's fine. We're not doing that.Nicola Willis: Can he confirm that core Crown spending will lift to 33 percent of GDP next year and doesn't he think it's a bit rich to keep blaming COVID for what is in fact his inability to control his expenses so that New Zealanders can have tax reduction?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well the member now needs to answer the question for the people in Tairāwhiti and in Hawke's Bay and in Auckland about how the National Party would pay for the recovery from the Auckland anniversary weekend floods and Cyclone Gabrielle because the member well knows that the additional expenditure that the Government had to take on from the half-yearly update up until now in large part relates to that recovery and rebuild. On this side of the House we think it is our job to support those communities. If the National Party wants to abandon them they'll have to answer for that.Nicola Willis: Does he recall the 2018 Budget Responsibility Rules—here they are—which aim to reduce net core Crown debt to 20 percent of GDP and can he confirm that by that measure debt will hit 43 percent of GDP next year?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: What I can confirm is in the year following on from that net core Crown debt was 18.6 percent and the Government met its objective. Then an event called COVID happened. I know the member wants to wish it away but she and her colleagues consistently asked for the Government to spend more money during the period of COVID. And yes it is true that that means on the old debt measure which was not internationally comparable we do reach the levels that the member is talking about. Again this is all fine for the National Party to say this; they have to answer the question: what would be cut if they were to do anything different?Nicola Willis: Does he still stand by the Budget responsibility rule that the Government will deliver a sustainable operating surplus across an economic cycle and can he confirm that not only has he delayed surplus twice in a row but he is forecast to run six deficits in a row from 2020 to 2025?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: I refer the member to my primary answer where I did indeed explain to her last year's Budget where we updated the fiscal rules from the ones that she has just shown also noting that yes it is correct that it will be six years. That is exactly the same length of time that the National Government took to get itself back into surplus after the GFC and the earthquakes. This is what Governments do. Governments step in to look after people during times of crisis. Again the National Party has to explain what gets cut which communities don't get rebuilt after a cyclone. That's what the National Party is effectively telling New Zealanders.Nicola Willis: Isn't it in fact the case that his Budget Responsibility Rules from 2018 are no longer worth the paper they were written on: he's spending beyond what he promised he's running deficits he's loaded up the debt because he can't control Government spending?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: No and the member as I said needs to keep up. Last year we had a thing called Budget 2022 where we reissued the fiscal rules to make sure (a) that we were operating on an internationally comparable basis and (b) that we set goals for ourselves to get back into surplus. The National Party can't have it both ways. Asking for more spending thinking that they can reduce taxes and thinking that they can reduce debt—it's the fiscal Bermuda Triangle and Nicola Willis is right where Paul Goldsmith was."