Goldsmith Paul; Little AndrewHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you Madam Chair. Look it's my pleasure to give my first speech on this bill the Water Services Entities Bill and in relation in particular to clause 27 and the co-governance arrangements. We've heard the Minister give a couple of speeches—Shanan Halbert: Repeat.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: —on this topic. It's not a repeat; it's my first speech—Shanan Halbert: Your colleagues have been repeating the same issues.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Yes and it deserves repetition because it's an important issue. So we've heard from the Minister the Hon Andrew Little who has said—and in response to what the Minister has said—Well the Treaty requires this because the Treaty is a foundation or constitutional document." Therefore it follows according to his logic that in the management of water in New Zealand we should have regional groups to decide on things and they should have an equal number of representatives from the territorial authorities—the councils—and an equal number of mana whenua representatives which is what we referred to as co-governance: the idea that there should be 50:50 decision-making between mana whenua—so iwi appointees—and representatives of those who have been democratically elected through our local government arrangements.So the question I have of the Minister is: whereabouts in the Treaty and in consequent arrangements has he drawn the conclusion that it requires 50:50 decision-making in this area? And if he thinks it does how far does he think that logic extends? Should that extend fundamentally to how Parliament is organised? Should we have 50:50 decision-making between the Treaty partners in our parliamentary setting? And I ask this—and he'll say "Oh well no no we're not suggesting that." Well that's precisely the direction that his Government is taking us in the local government context.This bill is one; the other bill that we've just dealt with is the Canterbury regional council bill which moved away from that principle—which is enshrined in our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act around equal suffrage—moved away from that to appointees by Ngāi Tahu in that case. And speeches from that side of the House indicated that it was the first step and that we want to go further with a clear goal for a 50:50 arrangement in those places at local government elections. We've got some documents circulating proposing that that approach of mana whenua appointments to local councils should be extended—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! Order! Coming back to the bill.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Yes well a core part of this bill is the idea of co-governance in the arrangement of the three-water arrangements and I'm talking about the context—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): OK. Order! Order! We are addressing the committee stage of the Water Services Entities Bill—Part 2 and Schedule 2. While it is OK to give some context around the speech the focus of any speech by a member is to focus on what is in the bill not so much what isn't. So I'll ask the Hon Paul Goldsmith to come more closely to the bill.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: A core part of this bill which I am talking about right here right now is the 50:50 co-governance arrangements outlined in this legislation and I am trying to explain my opposition to that and that is what I'm trying to do—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): OK and so the member is welcome to do that but he's not welcome to reflect on the ruling of the Chair. So I am warning him that if he wishes to proceed he addresses Part 2.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH: Thank you Madam Chair. And so the question I have for the Minister is: where in the Treaty does it outline that there should be 50:50 decision-making in this role? And if he can point me to that where does he draw the line from that? Does it extend just to matters facing "natural resources" a phrase that he used? Does he think that people of Māori ethnicity have a greater interest in water than other New Zealanders? And if so please I'd be interested to know why he thinks that. And secondly I'd also like to understand how he thinks the normal mechanisms of accountability will apply if we have 50 percent of the decision-making bodies appointed rather than responsible or accountable to the ballot box?Hon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health): Madam Chair thank you again. I'll just respond to the submissions by Paul Goldsmith on this part and in particular his references to clause 27. So I think the member asked where in the Treaty it is; the member will know through the jurisprudence on the Treaty that now goes—good in-depth jurisprudence developed at the very least since 1987 following the State-owned enterprises (SOEs) decision but actually some decisions before then. One of the articulated principles of the Treaty is partnership—so a sense that at least in many respects and certainly on natural resources the Crown doesn't assume the sole right to make decisions about natural resources given the other principle of the Treaty which is the protection principle protecting the taonga of Māori.If the member is concerned about the jurisprudence—how it has evolved what it actually means in practice—there's a number of people whom he might want to talk to for a further elucidation. I could think of people like Sir Doug Graham who very much led the way in the early settlements following the changes to the legislation in 1986; people like Christopher Finlayson; people like Sir Doug Kidd as he now is—all very clearly articulate about the Treaty. They're steeped in the Treaty and its jurisprudence. If he's concerned about this reference to interests in water by Māori he needs to go no further than the evidence that Sir William English gave to the Waitangi Tribunal at a time when he was the Minister of Finance on the issues about water and particularly in the challenge over the asset sale or partial sale of the gentailer SOEs. So there are sources of authority the member—CHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean): Order! Staying with the bill.Hon ANDREW LITTLE: But Madam Chair thank you for that. In relation to representation on the regional representation groups and on the board as I said earlier I argue that a very good balance has been achieved—that the regional representative groups provide a level of strategic direction in their representation from mana whenua and from local government and then the boards who are making the operational decisions for the entities that must deliver the services we expect to deliver. They are boards appointed for particular skills and competencies that are needed to run the water services entities. In total that level of representation achieves a good balance to achieve what we need."