Faafoi KrisHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Civil Defence): Can I begin my contribution by echoing the beginning sentiments of the Hon Nikki Kaye in her contribution in saying that this is a bill that has got to this House at second reading where I think the select committee that was considering it has done a really good job of working across the select committee itself to improve this piece of legislation.As the Hon Nikki Kaye said it's not necessarily perfect for the Opposition but when we're dealing with the issue around tertiary education I think it's incumbent on this House to get as much cross-party agreement as we possibly can. There's going to be differences and to change tack a little bit obviously the Hon Nikki Kaye made comments around our position on charter schools being ideological. We would throw back to the other side of the House that their position on establishing charter schools was ideological which I think is credit to our side of the House which has given a pathway for some of those as they call them partnership schools to transition over to schools of special character as long as they meet certain criteria. I won't get into too much of that because I think we should focus on this piece of legislation itself before I start getting pulled up.There are three themes that I did want to focus on in this piece of legislation again echoing the Hon Nikki Kaye. The first one that I wanted to speak to was around improving the accountability of tertiary institutes. The one point that the Hon Tracey Martin made which I think is a good development is around the Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) being able to charge an organisation a fee if it does an investigation into that entity and a breach of a funding condition has occurred. I think there are a couple of pretty high-profile cases where this has occurred. To give a tertiary education body that is charged with educating young adults in our community the funding to do that and to find it to have misappropriated that money in any way I guess is a wasted opportunity because that money could have been placed elsewhere. I guess the question whether it be a public tertiary institution or a private one is from the industry's point of view what might control the amount of the penalty that might be imposed upon it if they were to have cooked the books. In some cases if the fee was exorbitant then it may see that tertiary institution being put out of business.I think though that the answer within the bill itself is a good one because within the regulations that can be formed as part of this bill there is a control on how much of a penalty fee can be charged by the TEC for any breach or misappropriation of the money. I'm just looking at my notes here. Where there is a breach of a funding condition found to have occurred the legislation and new regulation will put constraints on the recovery of funding and this will include a limit on the proportion of costs that the TEC can recover. The TEC obviously will still be able to bear some of the costs of their investigations.I just want to point out also that obviously these fees can be charged only if the TEC finds that there has been some form of misconduct. Obviously if they do a series of investigations as most of our tertiary institutions—we hope obviously—are above aboard then the TEC is going to have to wear the cost itself. I think that's a good mechanism to ensure we don't get fishing expeditions by the TEC if it doesn't have good grounds to suspect that something is going on.That is not to say that the TEC is doing that. But I think there'll be genuine concern around the industry if they could go out willy-nilly and regardless of whether some misconduct has been found a fee could be charged. So I think that is a good provision within the bill.One other thing I did want to point out is something that isn't going to be able to be done via this piece of legislation and that is for decisions by the council of a tertiary institution to be made in writing. Essentially if they have a whip-around of emails the council can't make a decision in writing. I think that is a good thing. I think we have to realise that public meetings of tertiary institutions having open access to the public is a very important thing.I put that in the context of let's say a tertiary education outfit in my electorate which is Whitireia Community Polytechnic. It was established about 30 years ago with very much a community focus. It has evolved over time into a bit of a corporate behemoth but still it's very much at the community level. The community wants to make sure that that institution is there for the purpose of the community. I think if the community ever thought that it was getting too far ahead of itself and it had the ability to do that by being able to make decisions without having any public scrutiny—not letting members of the public be able to attend its meetings—I think there would be some serious concern. So I'm happy with the fact that those meetings will still be able to have public access and those decisions won't be able to be made by a whip-around of emails which I think is good for community input into those institutions.I understand that the penalties are going to be increased from $10000 to $50000. I think that is a good deterrent for anyone within a tertiary institution—again going back to the earlier point I made—cooking the books. I think it is a good development there. I think it also opens the access to the window of investigation to move wider in terms of the time frame too. That obviously gives the Tertiary Education Commission a lot more time to be able to look into these kinds of issues.But I think on the whole we need to congratulate the select committee that worked on this piece of legislation—I think over the parliaments; yep over the parliaments in the 51st and in this 52nd Parliament—for making this piece of legislation as good as it possibly—[Interruption] Were you on it Mr Macindoe?Hon Tim Macindoe: It's a good National Party bill.Hon KRIS FAAFOI: Made better by this Government. Thank you very much Mr Macindoe. What I think this will increase is the accountability of the sector—the penalties put upon the sector if they're found to have had misconduct. I think—I just have to be fair in the tone of my speech—this doesn't happen a lot. But if it does happen then I guess the ability—Hon Tim Macindoe: It's all warm and cuddly!Hon KRIS FAAFOI: I beg your pardon?Hon Tim Macindoe: The member's warm and cuddly.Hon KRIS FAAFOI: Ha ha! But if there is misconduct there's the ability to take some action.Obviously I'd just like to point back to some of the points that the Hon Nikki Kaye made in a less conciliatory fashion and just say that I think that the moves this Government has made in the education sector in our very short time in Government are very exciting. If you want to talk ideology and look at the fact that we've moved to get rid of national standards moved to give young New Zealanders the chance to have a free first year of tertiary education—it's going to be a game-changer for many New Zealand families a lot of New Zealand families that I think wouldn't even contemplate the opportunity of going and doing an apprenticeship going to polytech or going to university. So I think to have that kind of allegation thrown over to this side of the House that this is based on ideology is a little bit—I can't use the word but it begins with h".I'd like to acknowledge that there is a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) about to be produced as part of this piece of legislation. I did hear my friend Chris Bishop say he'd send this to the select committee. The committee stage of the House will be the opportunity for those amendments in that SOP to be discussed. But just to finish up this will improve the accountability improve the public and democratic nature by the likes of open council meetings for tertiary councils and I think that's a good thing. I commend this bill to the House."