edithatogo/nz-hansard-corpus huggingface dataset:
Lotu-Iiga Sam: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
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Lotu-Iiga Sam: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2174. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
12. 
Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie) 
 to the  
Minister of Consumer Affairs 
: What progress is the Government making on tougher loan-shark laws? 
Hon SIMON BRIDGES (Minister of Consumer Affairs) 
: 
 Really strong progress. I am glad that the member asked. I have attended a series— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I apologise to the Minister. If the Minister would just sit down for a moment. I do want to hear this answer. I am sure it is a very important answer.  
Hon SIMON BRIDGES 
: I know this is a matter of high public interest that the members are interested in. I have attended a series of public meetings in Wellington Auckland and Christchurch in the last fortnight and I intend to also attend one with the Pacific Island community in Auckland later next week on the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Amendment Bill. So far there has been solid support for the comprehensive package this Government has put together and is currently consulting on to crack down on loan sharks and give borrowers greater protection. There are many credit companies that are transparent and responsible but there are others that are not. The progress being made on this issue should signal to those unscrupulous lenders that their days are numbered. 
Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 
: What are the next steps for the draft law and proposals? 
Hon SIMON BRIDGES 
: This draft law represents the biggest change to consumer credit legislation in a decade and it is important to get the details right. I have extended the consultation time frame to give people more chance to have their say. Consultation now closes on 25 May and I urge anyone interested—clearly there is a lot of interest—to make a submission to the Ministry of Consumer Affairs. Can I personally thank the member who has asked the question Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga for his leadership in this area and his heartfelt work protecting the vulnerable against loan sharks. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In all that noise from the National Party backbench I lost the name of the person who was being thanked. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order!  
Hon Tariana Turia 
: Will the Minister be working closely with the Maori Party on curbing loan sharking parasites given the Maori Party’s continued commitment to reducing social hazards including gambling tobacco alcohol and of course loan sharks? 
Hon SIMON BRIDGES 
: It is my understanding that the Maori Party has been at the forefront on this issue for some time. It would be a pleasure and a privilege to work more with the Maori Party on this issue given its track record when it comes to significant social issues and bringing them to the fore in this Parliament.
Brownlee Gerry: Business Statement 
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Brownlee Gerry: Business Statement 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2161. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Budgets always contain a significant amount of legislation in them. Should there be a need for the House to go into longer hours it would be notified on Tuesday 22 May.
Mallard Trevor: Business Statement 
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Mallard Trevor: Business Statement 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2161. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Just to help members planning for Budget day other than the revenue matter that has been flagged by the other Associate Minister of Health to do with tobacco is there any other legislation that the Government is planning to take through? I am not asking for names but should members be planning for other legislation to be taken through all stages following the Budget on Thursday fortnight?
Business Statement 
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Business Statement 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2161. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Thursday 10 May 2012 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Business Statement 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Next week the House goes into a 1-week adjournment. When the House resumes on Tuesday 22 May the Government will look to progress a number of bills on the Order Paper including the Committee stage of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill the Crown Entities Reform Bill and the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation and Fees) Bill. Thursday 24 May is Budget day. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Just to help members planning for Budget day other than the revenue matter that has been flagged by the other Associate Minister of Health to do with tobacco is there any other legislation that the Government is planning to take through? I am not asking for names but should members be planning for other legislation to be taken through all stages following the Budget on Thursday fortnight? 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Budgets always contain a significant amount of legislation in them. Should there be a need for the House to go into longer hours it would be notified on Tuesday 22 May.
Roy Eric: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
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Roy Eric: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2214. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: As by tradition call 11 is a split call. There will be a warning bell at 4 minutes.
Brownlee Gerry: Business Statement 
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Brownlee Gerry: Business Statement 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2161. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 Next week the House goes into a 1-week adjournment. When the House resumes on Tuesday 22 May the Government will look to progress a number of bills on the Order Paper including the Committee stage of the Biosecurity Law Reform Bill the Crown Entities Reform Bill and the Commerce Commission (International Co-operation and Fees) Bill. Thursday 24 May is Budget day.
Roy Eric: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
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Roy Eric: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2215. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I call Catherine Delahunty. I have called the member but the debate is now interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. 
Debate interrupted.
Curran Clare: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
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Curran Clare: Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill — Second Reading 
[Sitting date: 10 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2214. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
CLARE CURRAN (Labour—Dunedin South) 
: 
 I just want to make two quick points about our opposition to this Arts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa Bill which we opposed in the first reading and we continue to oppose. One of the two points I want to make is that this is an erosion. What this bill represents and what this Government is doing is eroding our cultural identity in our nation and impacting on the ability of communities to have a role in artistic endeavours.  
I do not have the language of my esteemed colleague Clayton Cosgrove to give the artistic metaphors. In thinking about this bill one of the words that comes to mind is “fluff”. It is fluff. It is just words. It is weasel words. It is actually not real and it is paying lip service to the importance of our cultural identity which the previous Labour Government put a very high value on. Putting a high value on the arts putting a high value on our cultural identity is something that Labour Governments have done over the years and it is something that this Government is not doing.  
With regard to the erosion of community arts development I would like to quickly mention a submission that was received by the Government Administration Committee from the Taieri Community Arts Council. The council wrote to say that it was in the process of winding up its business and ceasing to exist because Creative New Zealand had decreed that no community arts council may ring-fence funding for an area within a local authority. It said: “For nearly 30 years we have done just that for the Taieri Plains area. This is a cunning strategy to get rid of Community Arts councils by a back door method and perfectly illustrates the attitude that Creative New Zealand has towards Community Arts Councils.” I put it to you that this is what this bill does. This is the effect that this bill is having all over the country on small organisations that have been providing value to our country.  
The second point I would like to make quickly is the erosion of our cultural identity with regard to the demise of public service broadcasting. This Government is about to axe TVNZ 7 and it is a travesty. It will erode our identity. This Government puts a value on individualism on reality TV and on funding programmes that are made about Australia not about our own country. It is a travesty. It is an erosion of cultural identity and we oppose it. Thank you.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2152. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.
Vote: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Vote: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2158. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. 
Ayes 83 
Adams 
Delahunty 
King C 
Sage 
Ardern J 
Dunne 
Lee 
Sharples 
Ardern S 
Faafoi 
Lees-Galloway 
Shearer 
Auchinvole 
Fenton 
Little 
Simpson 
Bakshi 
Finlayson 
Logie 
Sio 
Banks 
Flavell 
Lotu-Iiga 
Smith L 
Barry 
Genter 
McClay 
Smith N 
Bennett D 
Goff 
Macindoe 
Street 
Bennett P 
Goldsmith 
McKelvie 
Tirikatene 
Borrows 
Goodhew 
Mackey 
Tremain 
Bridges 
Graham 
Mathers 
Turei 
Browning 
Guy 
Moroney 
Turia 
Calder 
Hague 
Norman 
Twyford 
Chauvel 
Hayes 
O’Connor D 
Upston 
Clark 
Henare 
Parata 
Wagner 
Clendon 
Hipkins 
Parker 
Walker 
Coleman 
Hughes 
Robertson G 
Woodhouse 
Collins 
Huo 
Roche 
Woods 
Cunliffe 
Hutchison 
Ross 
Young 
Dalziel 
Kaye 
Ryall 
Teller: 
Dean 
King A 
Sabin 
Mallard 
Noes 7 
Lole-Taylor 
O’Rourke 
Stewart 
Teller: 
Martin 
Prosser 
Williams 
Peters 
Bill read a first time. 
Bill referred to the Commerce Committee.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2158. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No I have already ruled.  
Michael Woodhouse 
: Point of order— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I have already ruled and we intend to put the vote and after I have put the vote if a member then calls for a personal vote a personal vote will be held. That is my ruling. End of matter. The question is that the motion be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say Aye to the contrary No. The Ayes have it? 
Hon Members 
: The Ayes have it. 
Hon Members 
: The Noes have it. 
Hon Members 
: Personal vote. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: A personal vote has been called for. I will ask for a personal vote.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2157. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Sorry very briefly Mr Speaker. I apologise; I will do this very briefly. I heard your indication as to asking whether whips are ready for a personal vote. I have spoken to our whip. If you grant the conscience vote we are not in a position to do proxies but there are members in the House and actually they are present so they can vote. I have no doubt that the bill will pass its first reading on a personal vote so we are not going to the result but I think we are establishing the principle.
Chauvel Charles: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Chauvel Charles: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2157. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 Having listened to the debate I have grown increasingly concerned about the position of a member of tender conscience on an issue like this. If the scenario is that the member feels a particular way on an issue that is traditionally subject to a conscience vote yet the whips and the party leadership in his or her party feel another way and if the Business Committee is therefore not alerted to the prospect of it being a conscience vote so that the Speaker does not have the opportunity to consider the issue in that forum then there is no remedy for that member to express their conscience in the House. Presumably if they have not been able to get that done by their whips or their party leaders they are not going to be able to get it done by way of a split vote signalled later.  
I ask you to make a ruling under Standing Order 139 as to whether this ought to be a conscience vote and I hope you will rule that it is one. I know—well I think from the debate it is clear—that members are willing to participate in a personal vote tonight if that can be held.
Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2157. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 One thing here: we are in a position to actually oblige and I do recognise that you have made a personal attempt here but I have to say that under Standing Order 142 which is “Procedure for personal vote” there is no such mechanism. That is the problem with your suggestion although we do appreciate that you have made it.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2149. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I might be getting my time wrong but I think Mr Kidd might have pre-dated the Standing Orders that we are talking about. I think I can almost remember the circumstance and it was not an area of conscience. It was not one of the traditional conscience areas. It was a debate where it was felt that there might have been a few members of the National Government who at that time did not support the particular line of the Government. It was probably a little bit before the member’s time but in those days people had to line up and actually say what they said.
Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2156. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. One last point and I want to assure the Assistant Speaker that if you want an extension of time to cast a vote after making the decision then we will certainly vote for it so we are not trying to ruin the time of the House tonight. But this is not a Government bill; it comes from a private member. That is pretty important. It is not a Minister bringing a bill here but a private member.  
The second thing is that there has been a long tradition over a long period of time and I would be absolutely quite shocked to think that there is anybody actually—in any way like a majority—who thinks that the issue of gambling is not a conscience issue. It always has been and across the party divide it always has been for a long time and this goes back decades. So what you are required to do with respect is not a great thing to do: “Where the Speaker considers that the subject of a vote is to be treated as a conscience issue”. That is the issue for you. Then something else automatically follows—it will be a conscience issue.  
I am putting it to you personally and as a leader of a political party and somebody who has been here a long time that if you are going to get up in this House and say with respect—you are entitled to say it but with respect—that this is not a conscience issue then I would frankly think that this Parliament has lost something tonight.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2156. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: We are not—I am going to rule now.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2155. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Can I just contribute back to that point because I think it is an important one. I think it is fair to say that the Hon Simon Power indicated the approach that the National Party or possibly the Government would be taking on the sale of liquor legislation. He was not indicating the method that the House would take on it because of course as the Minister in charge of the bill he could not take from the Speaker and take from the House the right to have votes on conscience issues.  
I do agree with the member but I am someone who moved an amendment to the Sale of Liquor Act in 1989 I think in order to keep the royal charters including the Petone Working Men’s Club. The Minister voted against it but I convinced the House that he was wrong and the Petone Working Men’s Club was right. I am not sure that the legislation was better for it but certainly the will of the House was established in that way.  
I can understand why Ministers who want things tidy do not like conscience votes because sometimes you can even get things that are not entirely internally consistent within bills. But having said all of that there has been a group of areas that have been established for having them. Although the National caucus can make a decision if it wanted to to exercise a collective conscience if you like as opposed to individuals having to vote—and parties have done it in the past; my party has on occasions on conscience votes done that—they were still clearly conscience votes and not party votes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Mr Speaker—
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2155. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I will hear Michael Woodhouse. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE 
: I think the member has a point albeit there do appear to me to be some inconsistencies with a rigid principle of voting with a conscience on those issues. We are considering soon the second reading and Committee stage of a sale of liquor amendment bill which is the sort of legislation that as members more experienced than I know has often been a conscience vote and there are long stories of that turning into a bit of a dog’s breakfast in 1989 and in 1998 or 1999. In fact the former Minister of Justice the Hon Simon Power made it very clear that there was one area where there would be a conscience vote and that is on the purchase age and there has not been a single word of challenge to that being the method by which that bill should be progressed. So although I accept the point the member is making I do not believe it is an absolutely consistently rigidly followed rule.
Woodhouse Michael: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Woodhouse Michael: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2155. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.
Hipkins Chris: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Hipkins Chris: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2155. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
CHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I just want to make a very brief contribution to this discussion because I have had the chance to have a read of some of the relevant sections of  
McGee 
 while this interchange has been taking place and I think it is important.  
One of the distinctions made in  
McGee 
 is that when parties are casting split votes it is because a member wishes to take a different position to that of their party. In the issue of a conscience vote it is because a party has not taken a position on an issue and therefore it is free for individual members to take a position. Therefore in the historical context of gambling along with a number of moral issues around drinking sex and so on it has been a conscience issue because members have taken that view not the parties having taken the view. So the split voting by parties is designed—according to  
McGee 
—for situations where members wish to take a different position to a party position whereas this issue here by the precedent of the House has typically not been treated as a party issue but has been treated as an issue for individual members’ conscience. Therefore the provisions around split voting to me do not seem to apply here because this is not a situation where members are wanting to take a different position from an agreed party position where there is a set of processes that parties have in place in order to allow that to happen and to record that and to give consent for members to vote differently to their party.  
This is a case where members are indicating that parties should not be taking a position that individual members should be taking a position on. It seems to me from a quick read of  
McGee 
—and there are several thousand pages so I have not read every part of it but from the parts that I have been able to read it would seem to me—that there is quite a clear distinction there.
Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2153. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can you tell me how you get past these words in Standing Order 141 with respect to your consideration? It reads at one point: “and the Speaker considers that the decision on the party vote is so close that a personal vote may make a material difference to the result.” That is the only matter that you have to concern yourself with—that is right there in the Standing Orders—rather than ruling it out before we start. That is my point.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2152. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I seek the leave of the House for this vote to be deferred until the next members’ day and to be set down as an order of the day on that day in order for there to be a considered ruling on whether this is a conscience vote or not.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2153. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I have. The matter is at an end. However in dealing with the Rt Hon Winston Peters if his party wishes to have a split vote I refer him to— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: It’s a conscience vote. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Well I have actually ruled and you sought leave and that leave was denied. So at this stage the way forward if there is a way forward is if the member wishes under Standing Order 140(1)(b) “a party’s votes may be cast for the Ayes or for the Noes or recorded as an abstention and a party may cast some of its votes in one of these categories and some in another or others (a split-party vote):”. So if the member wishes to have a split vote or any member wishes to have a split vote that can be accommodated.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2142. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member; he has had 30 seconds.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2154. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I heard your ruling before as to process. What I did not hear is you rule that gambling is not a conscience issue. My view is that the precedent has always been in this House where there is division on a gambling issue on a liquor issue on a sex issue—and there is another one as well but I cannot remember what it is. But it is the “sins” anyway or that group of issues. They are conscience issues. That is what Standing Order 138 refers to. I think I am pleading with you not to upset the precedent of this Parliament and the rights of members to have conscience votes.  
You ruled as to the current Speaker’s practice as far as dealing with these matters and the development of the Business Committee and all of us think it is a good thing that if members do take it to the Business Committee there is a proper discussion and there is notice. What came out of this was when I said to our whip that I had seen a party vote on a matter of shop trading—that is another of those issues—and it came out of Sunday trading and Easter trading. That is the issue I was trying to think of before. It is not quite a sin although some people would regard it as a sin to trade on Easter Sunday. The point I am making is that gambling has always been a conscience issue. I accept that the process that has been developed is a good process but my plea to you is that you do not let a lack of a non-Standing Order process override the Standing Orders of the House.  
Chris Hipkins 
: Point of order Mr Speaker.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2151. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No. I thought I made it clear. My understanding is that Mr Mallard will seek leave for that purpose. So it is not debatable. If the member wishes to exercise his right of reply I call Te Ururoa Flavell.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2154. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: No I am going to deal with this. The member asked whether I had ruled on whether this was a conscience vote. I have not ruled in that way. I have not actually mentioned that at all. What I have been guided by very much is Standing Order 139: “Where the Speaker considers that the subject of a vote is to be treated as a conscience issue the Speaker will permit a personal vote to be held instead of a party vote.” So that is one of the considerations I have taken into account. Although it may have been a convention as the member says that gambling and other matters have in the past been treated as conscience votes I have not determined in my deliberations that in fact this is to be treated as a conscience vote. So I am guided very much by Standing Order 139. Of course I mentioned that if a party wishes to split its vote it can do so under Standing Order 140(1)(b). The member sought leave for this to be postponed. It is very clear that we cannot postpone it because leave was not granted. From here on in I am required now to put the vote.
Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2150. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Sorry Mr Speaker—I understand that that question will be considered by way of a request from Mr Mallard. The question I am asking is whether there will be debate on that question at that time or—[ 
Interruption 
]
Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2150. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 I raise a point of order—if I could Mr Speaker. So trying to pick up on Mr Mallard’s point will we be having an opportunity to discuss the question he has just raised after the closing speech? 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Just to finish the debate you have 5 minutes in reply and my understanding is that the Hon Trevor Mallard is going to seek leave for the vote to be postponed. That is a decision for the House at that time but before we get to that point I invite the member to exercise his 5-minute right of reply.
Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Flavell Te Ururoa: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2149. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
TE URUROA FLAVELL (Maori Party—Waiariki) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am just seeking clarification around that. Does it stand then according to that ruling that once a determination has been made say for the first reading that that determination is then deemed to continue through all phases or is there an opportunity to check in with the Business Committee at the second and third readings if it gets to that?
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2149. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: The ruling that I am making now is not binding the House to a further position when we come to the Committee stage or to the second and third readings.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2148. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. The Hon Trevor Mallard brought up [ 
Interruption 
]—I am ruling—the matter of a conscience vote. I have sought advice. The practice that has been adopted is for members to raise the matter of a conscience vote in the Business Committee in order that the Speaker may consider whether a conscience vote should be held and advise the whips accordingly. As this practice has not been followed in this case I do not believe that a personal vote should be held on this occasion. I am very mindful of Standing Order 141 which talks about how “A personal vote may be held following a party vote if a member requests one and the Speaker considers that the decision on a party vote is so close that a personal vote may make a material difference to the result.” So that is the ruling.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2145. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Leave is sought for the Hon Winston Peters to have 1 more minute. Is there any objection? There is objection.
Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Mallard Trevor: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2145. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) 
: 
 Can I seek leave for the member’s speech to be extended for a couple of minutes.
McClay Todd: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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McClay Todd: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2142. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua) 
: 
 Thirty seconds? I tell you what I will toss you for it: heads I get a minute tails I sit down right now. That is some of the problem we have with people who have problems with gambling in New Zealand. They do not know when to stop. In the remainder of my 30 seconds can I congratulate Mr Flavell on bringing this bill to the House and confirm that I and members of the Government will be supporting this being referred to the Commerce Committee. I look forward to many people from our constituency having their say on this issue and that we give it—
Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2153. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. In respect of the submission Mr Woodhouse made which may have found favour with you this is not a matter of whether we disagree on a policy. This is a different matter to do with a conscience vote and you usually find them on issues like this and on alcohol which have been the two longstanding— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: The sin thing. 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS 
: Well the last six sins—the particular ones that Parliament has tended to focus on. They are not to be likened to the dispute over ideology such as the ACT one that Mr Woodhouse raised. With respect there is also if you look at Standing Order 141 a personal vote being held following a party vote. But we do not want to get up and say that there are say six for and two against with those people who happen to be against not having their names recorded demonstrating their conscience. There is something that is being diminished here if you find in favour of that sort of ruling.
Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2146. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member.
Robertson H V Ross: Fair Trading (Soliciting on Behalf of Charities) Amendment Bill — In Committee 
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Robertson H V Ross: Fair Trading (Soliciting on Behalf of Charities) Amendment Bill — In Committee 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2142. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: The question is— 
Scott Simpson 
: I move that the question be now—[ 
Interruption 
]  
The CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson) 
: No. 
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. 
Bill reported without amendment. 
Report adopted.
Woodhouse Michael: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Woodhouse Michael: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2158. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Can I just clarify what you have just ruled and that it is your considered decision that if a personal vote was called for you will agree to it. Is that what I heard you say? 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: That is what I have said. 
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE 
: So I will come back to Standing Order 141 which are the grounds and the circumstances for bringing—
Tisch Lindsay: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2125. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: I declare the House in Committee—[ 
Interruption 
] Order! Order! We are in a process where I am announcing what the next debate is going to be and this is taken in silence.
Tisch Lindsay: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
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Tisch Lindsay: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2125. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Lindsay Tisch) 
: Order! The votes are taken in silence.
Fenton Darien: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
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Fenton Darien: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2125. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
DARIEN FENTON (Junior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I would like to move that this vote be conducted by secret ballot so the National Party members who have been coerced into voting for it do not have to have their vote recorded. 
A party vote was called for on the question that the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.
Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Peters Winston: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2150. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect this has always been a conscience issue for New Zealand First—for almost two decades now—and we see it as a conscience vote on this occasion.
Wagner Nicky: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
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Wagner Nicky: Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill — First Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2149. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
NICKY WAGNER (National—Christchurch Central) 
: 
 I stand to support the Gambling (Gambling Harm Reduction) Amendment Bill. I would like to thank Te Ururoa Flavell and the Maori Party for the work they have done on this bill.  
The National Party is well aware of the harm from gambling for individuals for families and for communities. We are particularly interested to hear the submissions on this bill because part of our election promise was to revise the 2003 Gambling Act. But the problem is that it is difficult to find an effective way to minimise the harm from gambling because gambling like prostitution drinking and maybe even smoking has had a long history. Archaeological evidence tells us that the cavemen were keen gamblers and that they used astragali bones from animals to play games of dice. You can even see pictures in the cave paintings of cavemen enjoying gambling. Ancient Greece Ancient Rome China Japan India and even New World Native Americans enjoyed a game of dice. In fact they thought the gods created those games of chance. When you look at Polynesia gambling came from the sailing ships with the explorers the adventurers the sailors and the whalers. In fact the missionaries had a pretty hard time trying to keep people in line and focused on gambling prostitution and drinking. However I believe that Te Ururoa Flavell says that Maori before the European influence had no interest in gambling and even had no words to describe it.  
This bill focuses on one form of gambling and that is electronic gambling or the pokies. The pokies are already under strict control. So this bill is looking at further measures to protect individuals from problem gambling reduce the number of pokies extract bigger revenues from the ones that exist better target where the money is spent and find ways to help individuals control their gambling. I am keen to support any measures that would minimise harm from gambling and will follow the comments of the submitters to the Commerce Committee with interest.  
However we do need to be aware that legalised gambling the revenue from pokie machines does good in our community. The money supports sports events arts festivals educational opportunities and many more community events and services. So we need to look to find solutions to the problem. But I would hate to see us throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up with a lose-lose situation where communities lose the revenue from the pokies and the problem gamblers just end up spending on gambling somewhere else. Thank you.
Horan Brendan: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
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Horan Brendan: Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
[Sitting date: 09 May 2012. Volume:679;Page:2112. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
BRENDAN HORAN (NZ First) 
: 
 This bill the Employment Relations (Secret Ballot for Strikes) Amendment Bill is a bill of contradiction. The member in charge of the bill comes from a party that told New Zealanders before the election that it promotes free enterprise. But rather than freedom honesty and transparency—inseparables—he brings before this House a distortionary piece of legislation more akin to fascism.  
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No balance. 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: No balance. I would draw New Zealanders’ attention to the stance taken by the Maori Party before the election. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: What do they say? 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: Well here is a quote: “Why would we intentionally want to support legislation that the unions tell us could be disadvantageous for low-income workers …”. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Who said that? 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: The Maori Party said that. “Our priority in employment legislation is that we give due consideration to initiatives that enhance labour relations rather than threaten to impact negatively on one side and advantage another.” Then it goes on: “For all these reasons we have given this bill serious and due consideration.” and it finishes with: “We are therefore opposed to this bill.” Where is the Maori Party now? Flip-flop. I think flip-flop may be contagious and we are in danger of Whanau Ora needing more money for that disease.  
Simon O’Connor 
: Which bill are you talking about? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: This bill—the one you haven’t read. 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: Ha ha! No well it is interesting is it not? There we have the National Party riding on the backs of the Maori Party of the “Dunne nothing” United Future and of ACT over there. It is very interesting that the honourable David Bennett was quoting Martin Luther King before because Martin Luther King also said: “A man can’t ride your back unless it’s bent.”  
A lot has been said on this proposed legislation and some cutting and cruel remarks have been said about the Hon Tau Henare. I would like to send some warm thoughts his way—a little bit of love from this side. It is not the National Party kind of love which says: “This is our candidate but vote for someone else.”; it is not the Labour kind of love because it is not a labour of love to enjoy the Hon Tau Henare’s company but more the love one would have for a prodigal son. But— 
Hon Member 
: Be careful he might come back. 
BRENDAN HORAN 
: Ha ha! But the driving criteria to determine New Zealand First’s feelings about this bill are threefold. One is it fair? Two is it harmonious? Three will New Zealand be a better place because of this new legislation? Is it fair? No. Is it harmonious? No. Will New Zealand be a better place? No. And there is an irony here because already that is three strikes.