Webb DuncanDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Thank you Madam Chair and the member who just resumed his seat was talking about—David Seymour: Ho ho ho!Dr DUNCAN WEBB: David Seymour; yes indeed—was talking about overseas credits and it is fair to say that the use of overseas credits raised real concerns by many submitters. One of them probably was addressed by the member and that is the danger that credits which are presented as legitimate are in fact the products of either flawed accounting or corrupt accounting. I think the argument of principle underlying the use of overseas credits is that carbon credits can only ever be a transition because the fact of the matter is that if we think we can buy our way out of this dilemma we are wrong.We simply can't plant enough forests in the long term to continually burn carbon which has the effect on the climate that we know it does. So no matter how much of Siberia or Africa or the Near East or the Far East is planted in forests ultimately someone has to pay the piper. And the Paris Agreement is very clear that the obligations on countries to step up are different depending on where they sit in the world. And Minister Shaw my suggestion is that this country a developed and wealthy country has a greater obligation to step up than others. So whilst in the short term if we are simply accountants economists or engineers we might think we can buy our way out of this using overseas credits—David Seymour: What about lawyers?Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Lawyers are entirely different Mr Seymour. We see things from a principled reasoned and objective standpoint unlike the economists the engineers and the accountants amongst us like yourself. So Mr Seymour the fact of the matter is that we are uniquely and ideally placed to make the technological leap to make the social leap to make the environmental leap to say that we in this island nation are going to do things a little differently. You know what? We can move towards a genuine zero carbon economy not one that seeks to offset its activities by planting trees. Now we know that in terms of transitioning when true.David Seymour: Then let's buy credits from offshore then.Dr DUNCAN WEBB: You're right—you're right. We do need to do that in the short term. That is called a transition but in the long term we cannot simply defer and move our obligations to developing nations who in fact need their arable land much more than we do. So we need—and we are uniquely placed to move into—a zero carbon economy where the activities we engage in are both economically profitable and environmentally sustainable and we need to be brave enough to step into that and to understand that what might be a short-term investment is very much long-term gain. So in terms of overseas credits it's not that they're necessarily corrupt or flawed—they might be—but the better reason is that they're a bandaid they're a sticking plaster on a gaping carbon wound and we need to address that now. Look the targets are not going to be set in stone. We know that we can address those. And look the Environment Committee was very very productive and full credit to the Opposition for raising the arguments and drawing out from submitters some very good points about the effects on communities. I hope they recognise the significant shifts in the bill that were made at select committee. So in terms of amending that target we noted for example that if there had been significant changes in social cultural environmental or ecological circumstances that warrants change—if there is a significant change and that covers pretty much everything. So all of those concerns that the Opposition's raised are covered simply in there and that's in new section 5Q in clause 8. So we really do need to look ahead—yes accept that we need to be nimble and prepared to change but we need to make the big changes now.