5. Question No. 5—Social Development and EmploymentHon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for Social Development and EmploymentQuestion No. 5—Social Development and Employment5. Hon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō) to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment): Yes in the context in which they were made.Hon Louise Upston: Which statement is correct: Yes the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) has resumed the use of [work] obligations since June 2020." or "We don't just apply sanctions easily."?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Both of those comments are correct. They are not mutually exclusive at all.Hon Louise Upston: Can she explain why sanctions for failing to attend a work appointment in March 2022 were 67 percent lower compared to March 2020?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Because now we have a Ministry of Social Development that has conversations with their clients. They build relationships with their clients. They ascertain what their situations are. It's led to great results. We've seen the largest exits off benefit into employment since electronic records have been kept and we certainly haven't reached the peaks of benefit numbers that were originally forecast by Treasury. We stand by our record during the COVID pandemic and we continue to see good results with regards to exits off benefit into employment.Ricardo Menéndez March: Does the Minister stand by her statement on the Breakfast show on 1 April that there are "still whānau living in hardship"; if so does she think the Social Security Act's purpose should aim to end hardship not just alleviate it?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: Yes I stand by the statement that I made on 1 April and I will also add that some of the issues that we face including hardships that whānau are faced with were issues that we faced pre-pandemic and really have been exacerbated because of the pandemic. I certainly do think that we need to address parts of our welfare system to do things like improve income adequacy but there are other ways in which we can address hardship and show a Government's commitment towards reducing poverty. I think the best indication I can see of that was actually this Government making the decision to introduce child poverty reduction legislation in this House. That holds us accountable as a Government.Hon Louise Upston: Does she stand by her statement yesterday about reducing the number of long-term jobseekers when significant staff shortages exist that "This takes time."; if so when will numbers on jobseeker benefit longer than a year return to the 2017 levels?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I watched the House yesterday to see what was asked here—some very good answers given on my behalf. But I will point out that the member who was asking the question was saying that there were 110000 people on jobseeker who have been on long term. I need to remind that member that about 70000 to 80000 of those who are on jobseeker benefit actually have a health condition or disability of some sort. Absolutely there are jobs available at the moment—absolutely. MSD is working hard to get people into those jobs but we do need to recognise that there are a range of New Zealanders that have health conditions or disabilities that make it really hard for them to take up employment. I encourage the member to watch Sunday this coming week when they interview three people with neurodiverse conditions and they get to talk about why it is so hard for them to be able to gain employment.Hon Louise Upston: How can the Minister stand by her statement yesterday that "The last thing [we want] is people on benefits for ever and a day." when those on the jobseeker benefit long term has increased by 60—six zero—percent under her watch?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: There have been increases in the number of people on benefit in general because of the fact that we have faced a pandemic and a range of things have happened during this time. That means in every category there are groups of people who have actually gone up. One of the biggest challenges that I think we face—that has been overlooked in the past by previous Governments and not responded to well enough—is actually the issue of supporting people with health conditions and disabilities into employment. Need I remind that member that around 70000 to 80000 of those on benefits have a health condition or disability? It's not necessarily that they don't want to work; there are a range of barriers in place to them being able to take up employment. A responsible Government invests there and creates a strategy to actually support them to get into employment and that's exactly what we've done.Hon Louise Upston: How can the Government claim that Mana in Mahi is reducing benefit dependency when just 14 percent of participants were on a benefit for longer than a year?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: We've gone through the statistics. In fact with regards to Mana in Mahi we have outdone what our targets were in terms of the numbers that have been involved in the programme. I think last time I checked about 88 percent—I believe; between 86 and 88 percent—actually had either completed or were still on the programme and a few had left but not gone back on benefit. Given the particular group of people that we are targeting that's an amazing outcome and it shows that it's an effective programme.Hon Louise Upston: Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker. That was an interesting answer but it didn't focus on—DEPUTY SPEAKER: That's not a point of order; that's a comment.Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order. I'm sure my colleague was going to point out to you that the Minister had not addressed the question and you cut her off extremely quickly.DEPUTY SPEAKER: She did not; she made a comment. She was giving a commentary on the answer. That is not a point of order.Hon Michael Woodhouse: Point of order. I'll raise the point. The question was not addressed. It was about the number of people going into Mana in Mahi not the number of people coming off it.DEPUTY SPEAKER: And if that had have been asked at that time I would have considered it at that time. I will consider it now and tell you that it was addressed.Hon Chris Hipkins: Does she agree with the assertion that a programme designed to stop people becoming long-term beneficiaries and keep them off benefits and in work is a failure if it succeeds in doing just that?Hon CARMEL SEPULONI: I'm not even quite sure what that Minister was asking. However I think I agree. [Interruption]DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!"