English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
English Bill: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:611;Page:8609] 
3.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Justice 
: In light of the Prime Minister’s statement that “It is clear in the Government proposal that the Maori Land Court could not as the end point of its work on a claim go to fee simple title.” does this mean that the Maori Land Court will be prohibited from confirming customary title; if not why not? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON (Associate Minister of Justice) 
: 
 The member is correct that the remedy of awarding a fee simple title is not available under the Government’s proposals. What is precisely meant however by a customary interest a customary right or a customary title is currently the subject of discussions surrounding the Government’s proposals. However I note that a leading Canadian authority on aboriginal title stated that one dimension of it is its inalienability. Of course as the honourable member will know alienability is a defining characteristic of a fee simple title. 
Hon Bill English 
: If customary title is on the Government’s agenda as a compromise as Trevor Mallard has suggested could that customary title amount to any form of rights of exclusion by the holders of that customary title? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: As I said precisely what is meant by a customary right or a customary title is currently the subject of discussions surrounding the Government’s proposals and no conclusion has been reached because the discussions are ongoing. 
Tim Barnett 
: Why has the Government proposed that a fee simple title not be available? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: A fee simple title gives the right to alienate land and therefore could prevent access to the foreshore and seabed. 
Dail Jones 
: Is the Minister wrong when she says a customary right cannot be alienated bearing in mind that New Zealanders and specifically Maori are concerned that their customary rights have been alienated by way of sale and in a non-restorative way as in the Marlborough Sounds and that the real question is what is the Government going to do to compensate those New Zealanders whose customary rights have been alienated and cannot be restored? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The points raised by the member are precisely those that are under discussion at the moment. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Can the House take it from the Prime Minister’s answers today and yesterday that the Maori Land Court will be able to create any sort of title to the foreshore and seabed in favour of Maori short of fee simple; if that is the case why is there reluctance to front up at a hui? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The matters raised by the honourable member are precisely those that are under discussion at the moment. 
Ian Ewen-Street 
: Can the Minister clarify precisely what the difference is between collective customary title and fee simple title? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: There is considerable academic and judicial opinion on precisely what that means in various jurisdictions. That is why it is important that we do have a discussion through the hui and with others members of the community as to precisely what the terms mean in this context. 
Hon Bill English 
: Now that the Minister has ruled out fee simple title which makes land saleable and the Government has said that that is definitely off the agenda will she rule out any kind of customary title that gives rights to exclude New Zealanders from the beach? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The matter raised by the honourable member is precisely one of the many matters that are under discussion at the present time. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister confirm the answer she has just given: that the Government does not rule out customary title that would include rights to exclude New Zealanders from the beaches? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: The fact that the Government has ruled out a fee simple title would obviously exclude it. 
Hon Bill English 
: Has the Minister now changed her mind between two different questions as in answer to the first question she said that the Government would not rule out exclusionary rights going with customary rights and then when I asked her again she did not seem to know what she was talking about? 
Hon MARGARET WILSON 
: I think the confusion here is over what precisely is meant by “customary title”. In my answer to the first question I said that was why we would have to look at that because in other jurisdictions “customary title” would mean that the land could not be alienated and that is inconsistent with the fee simple title notion. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table a 24 June  
New Zealand Herald 
 article that states: “Prime Minister Helen Clark said ownership of the seabed and foreshore had long been considered to lie with the Crown and legislation would clarify that.” 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is.