4. Question No. 4—FinanceNICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 4—Finance4. NICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader—National) to the Minister of Finance: When does he anticipate the economic conditions will be right for the introduction of an income insurance scheme and what ongoing work if any is being done to develop such a scheme?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): To the member's first question we've been clear that there is a gap in looking after New Zealanders who lose their job through no fault of their own but we would need to see a significant improvement in economic conditions before it is further advanced. While it's not possible to put a date to that we would need to see several matters resolved or improved including a return to surplus and cost of living pressures significantly eased. To the second question we have already announced that the New Zealand income insurance scheme will not proceed in its current form and that we have delayed the planned legislation and wound down implementation activity. As the Prime Minister indicated at the time of the announcement of this there would be ongoing policy work to explore the best ways to address inequities in the long term.Nicola Willis: How many people are still employed either directly or via consultancies or contractors to work on the matters just raised by the Minister?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That work is being undertaken at the moment. I'm advised and indeed written questions and answers have advised members of the Opposition that the agencies expect that a considerable proportion of the funding that has been set aside will be returned but that a small team will continue this work.Nicola Willis: Point of order Mr Speaker. My question was quite precise in asking for a number and there was no address of the request for a number.Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Speaking to the point of order that wasn't the question that was put on notice and I think the member will be well aware that matters relating to staffing within ACC would probably be best addressed to the Minister for ACC.SPEAKER: Well I'll make a ruling on the point of order: the question was addressed.Nicola Willis: Can he confirm that the Government's recent Cabinet paper on income insurance concluded that such schemes can increase unemployment and if so will he keep pursuing this policy even if he is told it will mean fewer Kiwis in work?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: That is one of the criticisms of social insurance schemes around the world. The actual facts of the matter don't tend to bear that out around the world. What I can guarantee for the member is that at this time the implementation of an income insurance scheme has been paused but there is ongoing work to see how we can fill the gap in our social security scheme that she seems to care so little about.Nicola Willis: If the work as he has claimed has been paused why is it that there are still people working on it being paid for by New Zealand taxpayers?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: As I noted the pausing is about the legislation and the implementation of the scheme. It seems that the member is struggling a little bit on the difference between something being cancelled and something being paused so I'll try and put it in terms that she will understand. Her leadership ambitions have not been cancelled; they've just been paused.Nicola Willis: Can he confirm that the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment concluded that a proposed income insurance scheme would place additional financial stress on some families especially but not only on low-income families meaning that many low-income workers would struggle to meet the cost of the proposed new levy; and why with that advice is it just on pause and hasn't been killed?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Again it is the job of Government agencies to provide the pros and cons of any given policy. In terms of the way in which the Government views this New Zealanders who lose their job through no fault of their own—sometimes because they might have got cancer or sometimes because they've been made redundant—deserve at least the consideration that a Government might think about how we can support them. Now is not the right time to do that because of the economic conditions that we are in and that is the reason why the implementation of the scheme has been paused.Nicola Willis: Can he confirm that he was also advised that his proposed scheme would impose massive costs on New Zealand small business with the extra tax costing a typical small business $13617 more a year; and what is it that makes him think there will ever be a time when New Zealand small businesses will welcome that cost?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: In answer to the latter part of that question the member might want to recall that this proposal in fact came forward to the Government from Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions in a joint approach to the Government. That is because among other things social insurance schemes around the world including the one that we had been working on are designed to support the ability of businesses to find workers—workers who can be retrained workers who can quickly move from one business to another. The Business New Zealand organisation might like to answer the question for the member about how they feel about that. We understand that there's a variety of needs for small businesses—one of them is access to staff.Nicola Willis: Why is the Government keeping this fatally flawed policy in zombie mode when no matter the economic conditions he knows it will drive up unemployment cost a fortune and take yet more hard-earned money away from working Kiwis?Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Apart from all the various assertions that were included in that question the member might want to reflect on the number of countries around the world who have social insurance schemes. In fact within the OECD there's only a very small handful of countries who don't have some form of social insurance scheme. We continue to believe that there are gaps in our social security framework and we will continue to look for ways that we can fill those when economic conditions are right. When it comes to the member's concern for low and middle income families that she's discovered today I would invite her to reflect on her failure to support lifts to the minimum wage and her failure to support increases in benefits increases in the family tax credit and increases to the Best Start payment—all of the initiatives proposed by this Government which help low and middle income families which the National Party oppose.Nicola Willis: Point of order Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table a series of documents. I've checked—they're not publicly available; they've only been released to National under the Official Information Act. They include verification of claims I've made in the House including also that the proposed unemployment insurance scheme would also place additional burdens on the health system likely causing longer wait times for GPs and operations.SPEAKER: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection to that? There is none. It may be tabled.Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House.