Mahuta NanaiaHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government): Again given the range of issues raised by the member Todd Muller it really cuts to the nub of the challenge that we have before us as a Parliament and indeed within councils to try and bring perspectives together. That cannot be achieved at a council level if Māori are prevented from participating in local government decision-making. But you make a salient point: how are we going to bring binary views together on significant issues which underpin the type of democracy we are? I would argue that if we do not accept that our democracy is founded on the Treaty of Waitangi there will continue to be binary views. But if we accept that we are on a journey—and this journey is a very long journey—and that that constitutional debate must happen with all the incremental steps that we make along the way towards our destination then we as a nation are better for it. Coming back to Schedule 1 in the Schedule because it seeks to insert provisions for those councils who choose to create Māori wards and constituencies I very much would expect that those decisions will be based on their local experience and their local experience of needing to work closely with mana whenua with Māori in their region because there are significant substantial challenges that require a different discourse. In having that discourse and including Māori around the decision-making table and around councils perspective can be given towards some of the most challenging issues of our time. We only need look back to some of the significant challenges that have been experienced through natural disasters and the way in which civil defence reach out into Māori communities. The Māori communities were very quick to put their hand up to say We can help and we're here to help everybody not just Māori." The member experienced that I am sure when it came to the Matatā floods and the way in which the local marae Kōkōhīnau rallied around to support members across the whole community—not just Māori—because they were of their community. Māori do not operate within a vacuum and neither does the rest of society. We can bring those binary views together. We can bring those binary views together if we're prepared to ensure that we remove the barriers to participation—which I might add is a Treaty principle—and ensure that the Local Electoral Act can be changed to even the playing field. That is what we're seeking to do in Schedule 1. The member continues to I think make very real-life statements—and I respect that—from lived experience about needing to have this conversation. I agree. I agree but we must put actions behind the words and the reason why these changes are going through to give effect to Māori wards and constituencies in the 2022 elections is because while the members on that side of the House may not agree this conversation within many regions has been around for a very long time. In fact again I come back to submitters like Andrew Judd who made it a very significant task of his—joined by advocacy groups from his rohe—to ensure that the public were going to be educated on just how discriminatory this legislative barrier was. The fix is simple from a legislative point of view but again—coming back to the member's comments—to change the hearts of people will be a journey and it will only be achieved if people are prepared to have the right conversation. One of the things that I found very challenging in listening to some of the submitters was that at the polar opposites of each other's perspectives there was a fundamental difference between interpretations of what New Zealand democracy looks like: those who absolutely believed in one person one vote and those who believed absolutely that the Treaty is our democracy. Somewhere in the middle I think is where we want to be and that's what we're trying to achieve. It may not satisfy both ends of the spectrum but it will certainly take us in the direction where I think we as a nation want to go. I appreciate the points that the member has raised. I don't agree with all of the perspectives on his side of the House. I do know from a legislative point of view that after 20 years of trying to give effect to Māori wards and constituencies having a poll provision that only applies to Māori wards and constituencies and not general wards and constituencies is a barrier that now has proved insurmountable to the ability of councils to genuinely entertain including Māori voices around the decision-making table."