Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Collins Judith: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:642;Page:11858] 
5.  
JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: How many beneficiaries are in debt to Work and Income and how much do they owe? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)) 
 on behalf of the  
Acting Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: I am advised that 178496 current Work and Income clients have debts that they owe and that the total owing is $324.8 million. That money includes benefit overpayments benefit fraud and recoverable assistance which constitutes 43 percent of established debt. The vast majority of those debts are under $1000 each. 
Judith Collins 
: Can the Minister confirm the answer to question for written answer No. 11509 which showed that almost 70 percent of beneficiaries are in debt to Work and Income and is that figure acceptable? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: It depends on the cause of the debt. Forty-three percent of that debt includes advance repayments. I am sure that even that member would support our social security system being used to advance money that is then repaid to the State rather than those people having to resort to loan sharks—or maybe that is her preference. 
Russell Fairbrother 
: What steps is the Government taking to reduce the amount of benefit-related debt? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The most significant thing we are doing is getting people off benefits and into paid work. Under the Labour-led Government New Zealand has achieved record low unemployment levels. We are also taking an early intervention approach to detect potential overpayments and stop them from continuing. Data matching is taking place between the Inland Revenue Department the Department of Corrections the Department of Internal Affairs the Customs Service the Accident Compensation Corporation the Housing New Zealand Corporation and Work and Income. The Ministry of Social Development is investigating all suspected cases of overpayments and where fraud is being committed the ministry is prosecuting. 
Judith Collins 
: How can it be that benefit numbers have gone down but benefit debt has gone up? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I recommend a new maths approach to the member who consistently uses new maths. For example in her press statement of 6 July she compared beneficiary numbers and got them wrong she compared debt levels and got them wrong and she compared numbers of staff managing beneficiary debt and got them wrong. The member needs to get her facts right before she poses a question. 
Judith Collins 
: How can it be that in 2002 beneficiary debt was $500 million and now 5 years later we have fewer beneficiaries but a debt of $750 million is owed by current beneficiaries and former beneficiaries? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The member is comparing the number of people who were on a benefit with the number who are on a benefit and off a benefit. One cannot compare one lot of data sets with another then say the figures are moving in the wrong direction. The total number of people on benefits is down the total number of people who are working on benefit fraud is actually down and the total debt is down. The member needs to get her facts right before she can ask a serious question in the House. 
Judith Collins 
: Does she agree with the Chief Executive of the Ministry of Social Development Peter Hughes who in 2005 said: “Benefit debt is a bad thing. It gets in the way of people getting on with their lives. It gets in the way of people being able to stay in work and move forward and succeed.”; if beneficiary debt was such a bad thing in 2005 how come according to his ministry’s figures 70 percent of current beneficiaries are in debt to Work and Income? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I support people whether they are on benefits or in low-income jobs being able to get recoverable assistance—financial support—through our social security system rather than having to resort to loan sharks. That member clearly does not support that view. The amount of debt that is being established under our Government excluding the recoverable assistance advances has fallen from 1.61 percent of total benefit expenditure in 2001-02 to 1.18 percent. That is in the opposite direction of the incorrect figures that that member continues to put out. 
Judith Collins 
: How can it be in the best interest of beneficiaries for them to be encouraged to take on debt they simply cannot afford to the extent that 70 percent of current beneficiaries are now in debt to Work and Income—and that is not even including all those who are in debt everywhere else? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Recoverable assistance should be and is available to people on benefits or in low-income jobs. If it is that member’s party’s policy to return to the 1990s when people on benefits or low incomes had to resort to going to loan sharks for essential items then that will be really bad news for a lot of New Zealanders.