Smith Lockwood: Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
Smith Lockwood: Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill (No 2) — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
[Volume:626;Page:21631] 
Dr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National—Rodney) 
: 
 I think it was somewhat unfortunate that the Minister for Social Development and Employment made very light of serious legislation because the big issue in Part 1 that really troubled a lot of people making submissions on this bill is the need to balance the genuine concern of a nation to make sure it plays its part in combating terrorism with the concerns which are also genuine of a lot of people to make sure our legislation does not become too intrusive in respect of individuals’ human rights. There are issues of judgment here and I think the Minister displayed a lack of understanding of the bill in that last contribution. 
The Committee should look very carefully at clause 4 in Part 1 which introduces a new criminal offence into the principal Act. The reason why we should look at it carefully is that a sensible member of the House from New Zealand First Dail Jones has argued that it is not necessary. He in fact proposes a Supplementary Order Paper that would delete clause 4. As I understand New Zealand First’s argument—and I invite the member to correct me if I am wrong—section 8(1) of the principal Act already covers that concern of New Zealand First. I would argue that that is not the case. If we look carefully at section 8(1) of the principal Act we see that the funding there refers specifically to funding acts. A person commits an offence who “… collects funds intending that they be used or knowing that they are to be used … in order to carry out 1 or more terrorist acts.” The key word in section 8(1) is “used”. 
The gap that section 8(1) leaves is that money could be provided to a terrorist organisation without knowing that it will necessarily be used for any specific purpose when that organisation could be involved in all manner of terrorist activities. The concern about section 8 on its own—it is a perfectly OK section as far as it goes—is that it is incomplete. It requires a person to know that the funds he or she provides will be used for a terrorist act. All that new section 8(2A) inserted by clause 4 requires a person to know is that he or she is funding a terrorist entity. A person still has to know that and must not have a reasonable excuse for doing it so new section 8(2A) sets the bar quite high. 
But I think it is worth the House giving careful thought to the challenge that New Zealand First has put in front of us as to whether this new subsection is required. I would argue that it is required because section 8(1) in the principal Act requires that one needs to intend to use the funds or know that the funds are to be used in order to carry out one or more acts of a kind that if they were carried out would be terrorist acts. 
I think National would argue that if we do not insert section 8(2A) as included in clause 4 of the bill into the principal Act we leave a grave gap in our law. I know the member has concerns about certain organisations that may be involved in activities that are not all terrorist activities. But putting that aside for the moment if we delete clause 4 altogether I think we leave a grave gap in our law because a defence could then so easily be that someone financing a terrorist organisation who knows that he or she is financing a terrorist organisation could argue that the money was not intended to be used for any particular terrorist act and therefore maybe find a reasonable defence against the existing section 8(1). 
I think that it is worth hearing from New Zealand First to make sure that the Committee of the whole House understands Dail Jones’ and New Zealand First’s arguments but I have tried to put them reasonably. If we do delete clause 4 I think we will leave a serious gap in our law which is why National would argue that clause 4 must be carried by this Parliament in order to insert new section 8(2A).