White Helen; Brownlee GerryHELEN WHITE (Labour—Mt Albert): Thank you very much Mr Speaker. I want to draw this House's attention to a couple of articles that have been published in the last 24 hours. They're about the UK and they address this very issue. So one is in The Times and I've got one here that I'm going to quote from. They're essentially based on the same issue. The Xero company that the Minister referred to as in support of e-invoices—and he sees this as very much the solution—is the very group that did the research into the problem in the UK of late payment of unimproved debt. It said that in the UK small businesses face a $1.6 billion deficit. That's how much it's costing them—it's costing them $1.6 billion. That's because big companies aren't paying them and then it means that those small companies are in the credit system and they're paying higher interest rates. So it's a very cumulative effect and it's hurting small businesses.What Xero said about that—and it was a man called by the looks of things Alex von Schirmeister who's Xero's UK managing director: His call to action is clear—it's time to hold larger corporations accountable for their payment practices. By ensuring that small[er] suppliers are paid on time the economic ecosystem can foster a healthier more sustainable environment for growth. [His] stance is a rallying cry for change urging stakeholders to reevaluate their payment ethics in … face of this crisis." That's what he calls it; he calls it a crisis. He talks about it being a systemic issue where the very fabric of economic reliability and trust is undermined. And so it is hurting our small businesses and those big businesses are absolutely doing something reprehensible when they withhold payment in this way.Now the Minister tells me that the answers to this are some things that aren't part of this bill; they're apparently promised to come. One is the encouragement of e-invoices. I have suggested to the Minister that there is no problem with support for encouraging e-invoices but it sits alongside this bill; it doesn't sit as a replacement to it. E-invoices are all very well but obviously the person from Xero who is involved in e-invoicing knows that and still thinks there is a problem. So we need more than that tool in the tool box. Again we are burning the things that have been done that are steps to support small businesses before replacing them with anything comprehensive.Now another thing that has been suggested and was suggested in the questions in the House today is: what's wrong with something that adds to this situation gives it teeth? Why aren't we looking at accounting for the profits that are made by big businesses when they withhold payments like this for often months on end? Why aren't they paying the cost? Why are we shoving that on to our small businesses? That's a shame. That is a shame that we're doing that. These are the small businesses in New Zealand that make up 97 percent of our workforce—97 percent of our businesses are small and they're struggling. Our productivity is a problem in New Zealand because those small businesses are undercapitalised. They need this money much more than the big businesses that are withholding and yet we are taking away that tool.The Minister's also told me that his alternative to this is a voluntary code. Well the secret's in the name: "a voluntary code". It's going to be a voluntary code where people may or may not hold this part of a bargain. I hope that in my speech today I have pointed out that what is going on here is not OK. It's never OK. It's not a case of volunteering; this is someone else's hard work. The small business has invoiced the big business it has done the work and to suggest that it's OK for a big business to profit off that and to shove all the costs have free credit treat the small businesses as a bank—that is a reprehensible action. That is very much what Government should be doing: they should be getting involved in this.Now this is exactly a difference between the Labour Party and the current Government. The Labour Party actually believes in small business. They don't just pipe it up wrap it up see it all as one thing; it is an actual belief in small business. I know that the small businesses in this country are often on the bones—they're working on the bones of the situation; they are not well-heeled they do not have enough money for that kind of carry on. I know that because they have walked in my door; as a lawyer I have seen what has happened to them. I know all about those sole traders. It is of concern to me that we are having a law go through where these kinds of real crises paid by small businesses are not at the forefront of the priority of our Minister for small business or his colleagues in the Government because there is an underlying ideology and there is an ideological difference. The belief seems to be that if big businesses do well if profits boom even at the price of these small businesses that's good for the economy because it will all trickle down. Well that has never worked. It's a beautiful dream. It doesn't work. We have not seen it trickle down. If we look at our productivity stats we will see that there is a real problem in this country. If I run a small business when I don't get paid for three or four months it's a pretty big deal. If I'm a sole trader and I am just working for that one entity which is true of so many people in this country now it is absolutely back-breaking when that happens. It means that people lose their houses. It means they can't feed their kids.This commitment that I have to a dignified work situation isn't a game. I believe that people in this country should be able to run small businesses and they should be able to make some money in this country and big business should not be allowed off the hook when in fact the work has been done.The committee heard my friend Reuben Davidson read from a constituent today and it's a very good letter from a constituent. It is a letter that talks about the real harm done when someone just refuses to pay. Now small businesses do that to each other—I appreciate that people do that to each other. But why wouldn't we have the standard set when we are dealing with our biggest businesses? We are talking the top 3 percent of businesses. We are talking about businesses where they are contracting for services for over $10 million a year. They are businesses worth $33 million per annum. Those are our big businesses. Why wouldn't we set the standard for those people? Why wouldn't we expect them to report that information—to collect it to be mindful of it and to report it? Why wouldn't we do that? Is that such a burden?We hear about red tape. We've heard about it today. This is the cover for this stuff: "It's going to cause red tape." This doesn't cause red tape for small businesses; what actually ignoring the situation is is actually ignoring the harm and the red tape caused for small businesses as they seek credit somewhere else as they try and deal with a situation. I think the woman in the story from Reuben Davidson today had written to the default payer 16 times and had received excuses and hadn't been paid. That's red tape. That is our concern.We need standards in this country and we need to recognise that big businesses are very powerful. They're more powerful than they've been for a long time for more than one generation. They are more powerful now. Our job in this House is to hold steady and to advocate for the people in this country who are not big businesses. That is the wonderful thing about democracy. We have to hold them to account. Our job as Government is to step in when necessary not step in lightly. But that isn't stepping in lightly now is it? This is something that we should have done. I cannot commend this bill to the House.SPEAKER: I should have said earlier that the question is that the motion be agreed to."