Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:616;Page:11706] 
3.  
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Is the Ministry of Social Development contemplating legal action against any individual or organisation at present; if so against whom and what for? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 The Ministry of Social Development has referred 1124 cases to the courts in the year to date. The ministry prosecutes benefit fraud wherever it is possible and appropriate to do so. In accordance with its zero tolerance policy on staff fraud the ministry prosecutes staff frauds in every case and seeks to recover all funds taken. In spite of the substantially improved detection capability which might be expected to have thrown up an increased level of fraud the number of staff frauds in the ministry has decreased from 18 in 2000-01 to two in the current financial year to date out of a total of more than 5000 employees. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does his ministry intend to take action against  
CIO 
 magazine because in an email to all his ministry’s information technology staff the chief executive officer Peter Hughes stated that he was “going to deal to it and going to take action over it” referring to an article published by the magazine that described the ministry’s SWIFTT computer system as “so complex that its outer layers are so fragile and the level of risk is great.”? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I anticipated that the member may want to go in this direction because of a press release put out just before question time. I want to reassure the House that the mainframe has been replaced within the Ministry of Social Development. It has been replaced so that the ministry has sufficient capacity. It is reliable. There is a modular plan to upgrade software through the system. A governance process has been in place since we have been in Government. There is absolutely no doubt that this system will deliver for beneficiaries and superannuitants. I would urge the member not to cause concern amongst those groups. They will get their money. The computer system is one that is reliable. 
Georgina Beyer 
: What action in addition to legal action did the Ministry of Social Development take in relation to the $1.9 million staff fraud for which the offender was sentenced last Friday? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As soon as the chief executive officer of the Ministry of Social Development knew of the fraud last year he immediately moved to freeze and seize the person’s assets and dismissed her from the Ministry of Social Development. He introduced new controls to the ministry in response to the methods employed in that fraud conducted a Ministry of Social Development - wide audit to ensure him that no other similar frauds were under way and commissioned an independent and external review of the ministry’s system of controls in the light of that fraud. The results of those reviews were released last week and provide assurances that the ministry has a good system of controls along with recommendations for improvement that the ministry has implemented or is implementing in full. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is the Minister concerned that the indecision and costs around the upgrading of the ministry’s benefit computer system have all the hallmarks of another computer system in the recent political past known as INCIS in that the SWIFTT system has not been and is not documented hence no one person can claim to know exactly what it does including the Minister himself; if not will he make the documentation available to the House and prove that my question is otherwise from what I say? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I do have confidence in the system used by the Ministry of Social Development. I am afraid that the member may be misled in relation to this debate. When we became the Government there was substantial debate about the computer system. The Government replaced the system. There is now a modularised approach to how we are upgrading the software. There is no risk to the system. People will get paid. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: If that is the truth would the Minister please let us have the documentation to support his answer to my last question and does he not agree that modifying the SWIFTT system over a period of 5 years would be a waste of time given the likely advances in technology that would occur over such a time frame; if so why has he not already ordered its replacement and if not what information has he received to suggest that a 5-year patch-up job is appropriate—and could we please have the documents tabled? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There are three questions there. The Minister may answer two. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I mentioned before we have replaced the system. It has been upgraded. What we are dealing with now is a modular approach to rewriting software. For example as members of the House know come Budget time we will be announcing major changes to the benefit system. That will require an upgrade and change in the software to be able to handle what is happening. So I am afraid that the member has simply been misled. I am perfectly happy for the Ministry of Social Development to brief the member directly on this matter. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to table the March 2004 publication of  
CIO 
 and also the Peter Hughes threat that he sent to all staff as to what he would do. 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House.