Ngaro AlfredHon ALFRED NGARO (Minister for Pacific Peoples): Is it—just checking. Yes? Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker—I was just a bit unsure whether it was my call. But I am honoured to take the call this afternoon addressing this issue with this debate. This debate has been raised because there are concerns. It is a valid debate that has to be had because it is to do with the issues around the care and concern of our communities. It is a valid debate—that is why we are here today. It has been raised and there are concerns in regard to information that is required.I just want to remind us that with this debate we have been talking about the genesis of this debate—the whole theme and thrust of the social investment approach. At its heart and at its core it is about two key things. The first thing is about data and evidence. We want to know that the fact is that we are asking the right questions. If we are investing or if we are putting taxpayer funds into the appropriate approach whatever service it may be do we know we are getting the right return? That is a question that every single New Zealander would want us to be held accountable to and that is absolutely the right thing.The second thing about the social investment approach is that it is about investing early. In other words early intervention and prevention is the key to ensuring that we address those issues of concern and that is at the core heart. So regarding the concerns that have been raised about the social investment approach I think and I believe that all New Zealanders who are listening here today will agree that those are appropriate questions to ask. That holds us to account and makes sure that we are asking the right questions. But more importantly are we using taxpayer funds which are given to us to be held to account appropriately and in the right way? That is critically important as well.There has been some talk about the fact that in this and especially the issues around the Privacy Commissioner which he has raised—I want to just remind the House and those who are listening that this relationship with the Privacy Commissioner has been one that we have welcomed and we have ensured that the Privacy Commissioner has been a part of the process and also engaged in all parts of this development. We know that in December of last year he was invited to a workshop with other key officials and other key stakeholders. We talked about the importance of the approach that we were taking. We have not discounted the issues that the Privacy Commissioner by right in his role of responsibility has taken. He has asked us to ensure that we are accountable. He has asked us to ensure that we protect the privacy of that information and that we have taken it seriously hence the reason for the report. We have welcomed the report. It has identified four key issues. The Minister for Social Development has talked about those issues three of them in particular which we have addressed. We have talked about them and we welcome them and we think that they are absolutely important.I know that my colleague and friend over there Mr Darroch Ball has actually gone out to the library to seek information about breaches. But one of the things he may not have done is gone out and talk with the people in the community—the key stakeholders the providers. I have been out there to talk with them. Why? It is because it is not just about sending officials out; it is about the face-to-face conversation. Why? [Interruption] That is right—you may not want to hear it because it did not come from the library. You may not want to hear it because it came from outside of your Google and Wikipedia. This was a face-to-face conversation to talk about the issues that we are taking. We talked about Oranga Tamariki. We talked about the approach. Was there a concern? There were no concerns with where the Government was going. We talked about the inclusion of the voices of young people—having an opportunity where their concerns could be heard. For the first time under this Government we have an NGO that has young people who are at the heart of this so that they can have their concerns right at the heart of Oranga Tamariki. Then we also talked about the importance of them engaging as the whole of New Zealand is—looking at what is important. It is a whole of" response that we took.Yes I will admit that the issue of concern that was raised—and I will put this in context—was about client-led information. People wanted to know what the information is for. What is it going to be used for? As we began to discuss and talk about this there were similar concerns that were raised by the Privacy Commissioner in regard to who will use the data and how it will be used. There were concerns by other NGOs who said: "Well will people stop from sharing their data if they know that they will not sign the privacy waver?". They had valid questions to ask. So what was important and what has been done by both the Minister and the department was to walk step by step through that with the people. No one disagreed with the intent or the direction that we are going in. No one disagreed.But the fact is that we need to know that we are holding ourselves to account. We need to know that the services that we deliver—let us think about Diane Robertson from Auckland City Mission. I talked about this at one of the NGO meetings. In her research she talked about the 100 clients that she had. She talked about the client data that came out of that in which they found out that in one case with one family there were 22 organisations that they had to contend and deal with. In the end because there was a lack of information there was a lack of appropriate response. They did not get the help that they needed. Surely that is enough for everyone in the House to be able to say this: we need the right information. But the concerns are right: we need to do it carefully. We need to step through this appropriately. We have done that. We are doing that. So for all the talk and all the discussion here—from the face to face with NGOs in the community the only response that I have had back is this: just give us assurance. Give us assurance so that we are confident and know that the data that we share is going to be used appropriately.The member over there Darroch Ball talked about 80 breaches in 8 years. You have got to say if you then went and did the research on how much data is shared—you would go into the tens maybe even the hundreds of thousands. You have had 80 breaches over 8 years—that is 10 a year. You can do the fearmongering and you can talk about the issues but let us go back to the heart of what this is actually about. The heart of this issue is about this: are we doing the right thing in the right place at the right time for the people who ask us to serve them? And are we doing it in a way that we hold ourselves accountable as a department as organisations and dare I say this even to providers? Are we doing the right thing to serve those who are most in need?We know that there are a number who have come and shared those concerns and I welcome that the Minister has taken the lead in ensuring that she has immediately addressed three out of the four concerns and is continuing conversations around that. That is critically important as well. This is a solution that we feel is important. It is giving us the data that is vital for us as well. We know that there are 136 providers who have already signed up to this approach. They have been invited to upload the data. [Interruption] There are 10 at the moment—10; that is right—who have come along to upload this information.But that is what we are saying—when we noticed that it was not quite right at that moment we shut the thing down. So what do you have to say to this? When we found that there was one that was wrong the response by the Minister and the department was to shut the thing down and make sure that we got it right. Why? It was because we wanted to give confidence regarding the concerns that were raised.We believe that we are acting responsibly in what we are doing at the moment. We know that the Minister also has had conversations with those who have had concerns about the special sexual violence services. In their case they have had those concerns—how has she addressed this? She has addressed this by allowing for a period of a year so that they can continue to again work through those concerns step by step.No one disagrees with the intent. No one disagrees with what we are trying to do which is to make sure we have the right information and to ensure we provide the information service at the right time for the right purpose. I have heard no one at all disagree with that. What we are concerned about in this debate is to make sure that we have stepped through all of those concerns. We welcome that. We are working through that. We think that is absolutely important as well—Hon Member: What do you think we're having an urgent debate for?Hon ALFRED NGARO: Well that is why the urgent debate is here—to provide for that provision as well. I think the work that we are doing at the moment is critically important. We are working through—Carmel Sepuloni: Round it up Alfred. You know you have nothing else to say.Hon ALFRED NGARO: Well the member may think that but these are the face-to-face conversations we are having in communities up and down the country. We are talking to the people and this is what they are sharing. We did not send officials; we went along ourselves. The Minister has also gone along and talked to different community groups—those who have had concerns. We have addressed them. We are walking through it with them so you cannot say that this is a Government that is out of touch as has been commented. You cannot say that this is a Government that is not stepping and walking through those concerns. In fact you would have to say the opposite. We do not go to Google and we do not go to the library to get information. No we do not. We go out we meet our stakeholders and we talk to them about the concerns they have. We know that at the moment the concerns are there. We are being responsible as a Government to ensure that we walk through those concerns with them. If there is a breach then we immediately shut that breach down until we have addressed it in the right and appropriate way.We are continuing to listen to the concerns. We are working with the Privacy Commissioner. We have got the report; we are working through that. So we believe that we are acting responsibly. We are doing all the right things that are appropriate. I welcome the approach that the Minister has taken which is the appropriate one. We are confident in what we are doing. Again I want to reiterate this: the heart of this issue is about getting the right data and the right information to make the right decision. I confirm this debate."