Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Shirley Ken: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:623;Page:18865] 
2.  
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (ACT) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: Does Te Wananga o Aotearoa’s Mahi Ora course have a large number of referrals from Work and Income as claimed by former Associate Maori Affairs Minister John Tamihere and what is the total number of referrals Work and Income has made to courses run by Te Wananga o Aotearoa in each of the last 3 years? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 I do not have the information about individual courses or providers as this information is held on individual job seeker agreements and would take more time than has been available to aggregate. The general process is that a case manager agrees with the client whether a proposed course would assist that client into work as part of consideration of his or her job seeker agreement and that means that he or she moves into a wide range of educational opportunities. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Does he agree with John Tamihere’s description of August 2003: “There is a massive traffic cop directing traffic to the wananga.” and was he alerted by Ministry of Education officials of their quality concerns back in 2001? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Going back through the question from the end of it 2001 was about the time if my memory serves me well that the settlement for wananga was made so that was the beginning of the process. Right from the beginning there was a discussion about issues of quality. In answer to the question about the quote from John Tamihere I am not aware of what John Tamihere thinks about the Work and Income process but I repeat that Work and Income goes through a process of a job seeker agreement and allows a person to enrol in a course if it is appropriate for that person getting a job opportunity. 
Jill Pettis 
: Can the Minister advise the House how employment and educational outcomes for Maori have changed in the last 5 years? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The annual average unemployment rate for Maori over the year to December 2004 was 8.9 percent—the lowest since the household labour force survey began—and compares with 16.6 in 1999 and the all-time peak of 26 percent in 1992. The proportion of the Maori population aged 25 to 64 with a tertiary qualification has increased from 35 to 44 percent in 2003 around the same level as non-Maori. Six percent of Maori now have a degree—up from 3 percent in 1998. The average income for Maori with a degree is now similar to non-Maori. 
Hon Bill English 
: Does the Minister agree with the Minister of Education who says that the wananga is in serious financial trouble or does he agree with the Tertiary Education Commission which told a select committee this morning that it has no concerns about the financial viability of the wananga and that it will continue to advance it tens of millions of dollars to pay for its courses? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am afraid I cannot take that member’s quote from the Tertiary Education Commission this morning because I have usually had to basically check on every statement he has made. I will have to check on what he said about the Tertiary Education Commission but I share the view of the Minister of Education that it is certainly time for us to be once again looking at the financial circumstances of the wananga. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: How do programmes such as Mahi Ora Kiwi Ora aimed at new immigrants and Greenlight—all packaged distance programmes—assist “the application of knowledge regarding ahuatangaMaori Maori tradition according to tikanga Maori Maori custom” application of which is a defining characteristic of wananga under the Education Act 1989? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The member is right. Wananga are supposed to be organisations that teach within tikanga Maori and their programmes are supposed to reflect that. That tikanga is part of the programme is something that is taken for granted on the basis that they are supposed to advance those values. If those programmes do not reflect that of course that is one of the reasons why they are being examined. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: As the Minister responsible for a department that does a large number of referrals to the wananga courses how does he reconcile the Tertiary Education Commission’s comments to the select committee this morning that it was unaware of any funding or financial concerns confronting the wananga with the Minister of Education’s comments that it had about 3 weeks to go? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: On the first matter I say to Mr Shirley that his repeated refrain of large numbers of referrals is something we will need to check. They are in job-seeker agreements that will take time to aggregate so he should not repeat something he has no evidence for. On the second matter as I said— 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Twice we have witnessed this Minister challenging the word of members of Parliament asking questions. The rule of this House is that the word of members is to be accepted. The Minister is suggesting that somehow what the Hon Bill English and the Hon Ken Shirley are saying from the select committee this morning is incorrect. He is also suggesting that newspaper reports of what John Tamihere said in August 2003 are incorrect. In that way the Minister is dodging answering the questions. The rule is that a member’s word is to be accepted. Certainly a Minister cannot dodge a question by questioning the word of a member. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the Minister however is quite entitled to refute the word of the member and to refute the argument. That is what question time is all about and that is what he did. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. He is not refuting the word. If he were refuting the word he would be producing evidence that they were wrong. All he is doing is questioning the word of a member. That is my point. I would be quite happy for Steve Maharey to address the question in the House by saying: “Here are the facts. That assertion is wrong.” That would be refuting the word of a member. But he has not. He is just saying “I don’t know. The member could be wrong.” and considering that an answer. That is not refuting the word. That is questioning the word of a member. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: There is nothing in the Standing Orders or  
Speakers’ Rulings 
 that states that the word of a member claiming what somebody else said or what the facts are has to be accepted. Otherwise I could say anything about Mr Hide and while much of it might be true he would have to accept my word on that matter. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let me just say that members do not have to accept arguments put by other members. They do not have to put rebutting evidence forward. If a member says something personal to a member then of course his word must be accepted. I listened very carefully to what was said to Mr English. That is why I told the Minister to come to the question. But as far as statements are concerned they can most certainly be refuted. That is the whole point of question time. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I believe that the situation is more serious in that the Minister was challenging my claim that many thousands of students are referred from Work and Income New Zealand to the wananga’s courses when the primary question which he received early this morning actually asked him how many students had been referred in each of the last 3 years. He made no attempt whatsoever to answer the primary question and then relied on that to try to knock out one of the supplementary questions. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If members put statements into their questions Ministers are entitled to address those statements and challenge them. That is a rule that members run by including statements in addition to the question. I just say—[ 
Interruption 
] No I do not need any comment. I am ruling on the point of order now. I do not need any further assistance. 
Hon Bill English 
: Has the Minister advised his department that refers beneficiaries to the wananga that the Government cannot get financial control of the wananga unless it needs to borrow and according to the Tertiary Education Commission this morning the wananga has very substantial assets and therefore may not need to borrow at all? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: My only interaction with the Ministry of Social Development around these issues of course is to ensure when job seeker agreements are put together and when people are referred to courses that those courses are ones that lead to a job. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Just answer the question. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The question that the member asked is of course appropriately one that he would refer to the Minister of Education. My interest is in whether courses lead to a job. 
Rodney Hide 
: Could the Minister explain how it was that he was alerted by Ministry of Education officials back in September 2001 over concerns about the quality of the programmes at the wananga yet— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You indicated earlier that this line of questioning is outside the responsibility of this Minister. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: My goodness I am very generous to Mr Brownlee but generosity goes only so far. I will now have Mr Mallard’s point of order heard in silence. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: The quality of tertiary education courses is not the responsibility of the Minister for Social Development and Employment and never has been. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: “Could he confirm he had been advised …” was OK as far as he had gone but I do say that as far as actual administration of the department is concerned that is not the responsibility of Mr Maharey. Perhaps the member could ask the question again. 
Rodney Hide 
: I am not sure whether you are ruling what I said in or out. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have ruled so far that provided the member is saying “Can he confirm …”. 
Rodney Hide 
: He already had in his earlier question. He said he had advice. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I cannot see the point in the supplementary question if he has already said he could confirm it. However the member can— 
Rodney Hide 
: If I was allowed to say it I hope that on your last day you would see— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: We will see how the member goes. 
Rodney Hide 
: How could it be that the Minister was alerted by Ministry of Education officials back in September 2001—[ 
Interruption 
] There he goes interrupting me. If Trevor Mallard wants to have another go he can stand up and take a point of order or are you going to allow him to chip? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I am not and I tell Mr Mallard to keep quiet. I want to hear the supplementary question and I will see how it goes. 
Rodney Hide 
: How could it be that the Minister as he said in his answer was alerted by officials back in September 2001 over the quality of the courses at the wananga yet—and that was when the wananga was getting $34 million a year—John Tamihere could say in August 2003 that Work and Income was “a massive traffic cop directing traffic to the wananga”; how could it be that he allowed Work and Income to do that? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The last part of the question is in order. If the Minister was alerted as Minister for Social Development and Employment that is fine; if not then the question is out of order but the last part of the question is in order. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Can I repeat for the member that the way the case manager operates in Work and Income is to send a person to a course where he or she can enrol if that fits with the aims of the job seeker agreement resulting in a job. That is how it works. On the first issue I was not alerted as the Minister for Social Development and Employment to these issues but can I say in terms of the timeline that 2001 was when the deed of settlement took place and I am aware that within that deed of settlement were performance measures around quality. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can the Minister confirm that the true state of affairs is that in 1999 the National Party declined to take the advice of New Zealand First and first funded this operation the way it is being funded now and that for the last 5½ years he and his colleagues have been guilty for what has developed—in short Tweedledum has done no better than Tweedledee? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am glad at least that we are Tweedledee and not the previous term! In terms of correcting the member I point out that yes the previous National Government was responsible for the original arrangements around wananga and the tribunal settlement. Since then of course as I mentioned before in 2001 a deed of settlement was struck and since then there has been an ongoing battle with this organisation to make sure it lives up to quality measures. 
Dr Muriel Newman 
: Why did he say as reported in the  
Sunday Star-Timesin 
 August 2003 that he did not believe that the wananga’s funding formulas need to be rejigged in a big way that a good correspondence course can be just as expensive as face-to-face learning because of the cost of producing good course material and that he is comfortable with the level of funding the wananga is receiving? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As someone who has taught extramurally for many years—about 12 years in fact—I can confirm that the cost of teaching at a distance can be as much if not more than the cost of teaching face to face within the context of an institution. That is why I believe that those kinds of courses can—not necessarily but they can—attract the same level of funding as internal courses. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: As the Minister responsible for a department referring students to the wananga did he know that the wananga staff members Jay Bocock Dennis Gray and Peter Ward who were working in and running the information technology section formed a private company and that all supply of information technology software and hardware was channelled through their company without any contract being let; and if he did know that is he concerned about it? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am not aware of the specifics of that but I am sure that the member has made that information available to the office of the Auditor-General and I am sure that that is part of the investigation—because he did so. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: As the Minister responsible for a department that refers a large number of students to the wananga did he know of the situation with the security services for the wananga whereby again a staff member with responsibility for security formed a private company and supplied all security equipment and services through that company without any contract being let for tender? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am not aware of the particulars of that particular case but I am sure that Mr Shirley has referred that matter to the office of the Auditor-General and I am sure therefore that that matter is being investigated as we speak. 
Rodney Hide 
: Was the Minister alerted to the problems back in 2001 and in light of his saying that they had had an ongoing battle with the wananga ever since over quality and funding why did he tell the  
Sunday Star-Times 
 that he was “comfortable with the level of funding that the wananga is receiving in 2003.”? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Probably because that was the advice I was receiving from officials. 
Rodney Hide 
: Is the Minister telling the House that in 2003 officials were advising him that the level of funding of the wananga was OK and that quality at the wananga for that spending was OK? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I mentioned before these questions are probably better put to the Minister of Education but this sequence of events—2001 deed of settlement performance measures; 2002 appointment of a development adviser; 2003 special quality audit; 2004 request by the Auditor-General to go in to investigate conflicts of interest—sounds like an issue to me. 
Hon Bill English 
: I seek leave to table the NewsRoom report of the select committee procedures this morning where the Tertiary Education Commission said it does not believe that the organisation is in sufficient trouble to question whether it— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I ask you on your last day Mr Speaker to be particularly generous to Opposition members with their questioning of this Minister and to think about this issue. The Minister said he was comfortable with the level of funding back in 2003 and I used up a question in asking him why he said that. He said that that was what officials had said. We heard earlier from him saying that he had been alerted to problems back in 2001 over the quality of the courses so I had to use up another question to ask whether he was saying then that officials were telling him in 2003 that he could be comfortable with the funding. What we then got was a long list of some sequence of events because he said we had to get the sequence right. He never once addressed the question of whether he was standing by his answer that that was what officials had advised him. I ask you to ensure that he has to address the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is just relitigating. As far as I am concerned I heard the member have his questions. He has done so and no generosity needs to be exercised on that behalf. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I seek leave to table documents. The first documents relate to the arrangements and company records of Te Wananga o Aotearoa staff who run a private company that provides software and hardware. 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I also seek leave to table documents relating to the security arrangements at the wananga and again to staff members forming private companies and supplying all equipment without competition or tender to the wananga. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Before I put the leave a member has asked the date of the documents. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Yes I have documents from today and from over recent weeks. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table those documents. Is there any objection? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: He hasn’t got a date. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There has to be objection. The member could have expressed objection. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I object. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Right. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am entirely happy to see the disclosure of those documents if the member will but tell us the dates on them—because they cannot have today’s date. If he is talking about a security document it will not have today’s date but that is what he said. So I say again that we will grant him leave but he had better tell us the dates of those documents. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member can ask for leave. We have already had the first leave granted. In relation to the second request for leave I say that if the member wants to seek leave and give a date then we will put it to the House again. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Certainly. I seek leave to table documents of correspondence from recent weeks including company records sourced today relating to the matter I raised earlier in my second request for leave. 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Will the Minister for Social Development and Employment in working with his agency as far as referrals are concerned take into account the fact that this afternoon Te Wananga o Aotearoa has agreed to a Crown manager? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I certainly will.