8. Child Poverty—Measurement and Salvation Army ReportCARMEL SEPULONI (Labour—Kelston) to the Minister for Social DevelopmentChild Poverty—Measurement and Salvation Army ReportCARMEL SEPULONI (Labour—Kelston): To the Minister of Social Development is she concerned that child poverty rates of up to 20 percent have become entrenched into New Zealand's economic and social structure" according to today's Salvation Army report?Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Standing Orders around questions are relatively specific and there needs to be sufficient evidence for the claims that have been made in a question provided to the Clerk's Office. To have an allegation like that presented as fact when in fact all it could ever be presented as was an opinion from the Salvation Army would seem to me to make the question at least questionable; if not in fact out of order.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First): That complaint is easily rebutted by the fact that that is an accurate recitation of what is in the Salvation Army report. That is all that is being asked for as a way of authentication by the questioner and his complaint is a nonsensical one. Mr SPEAKER: I thank the member for his comment. He is in fact on this occasion correct. I had a good look at the report. The question as it is—[Interruption] Order! The question as it is worded says that it is according to the Salvation Army report and I can find exactly the quote then used within that report. If the member wants further assistance I suggest he look at Speaker's ruling 184/3 by Speaker Jack. It was in 1970 so it may just precede the member's involvement with this House but it certainly says that questions can use excerpts in reports and attribute them to that and it has done so in this case. It has now become a bit disjointed between the asking of the question and the answer. I am going to invite Carmel Sepuloni to repeat the question. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Speaking to the point of order—Mr SPEAKER: No I have dealt with the matter.Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House): No speaking to the point of order—Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee on this occasion. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: That does beg the question as to whether the question is asking the Minister to have an opinion about the opinion or whether the question is: "Does she have concerns that the Salvation Army are putting around this sort of tripe?".Mr SPEAKER: No. The member is now on the dangerous ground of an attempted derail. What the question is asking is whether the Minister is concerned with a suggestion that has been raised in the Salvation Army report. That is a—[Interruption] Order! That is a perfectly legitimate question. It will now be asked again and then we will hear whether the Minister is indeed concerned.8. CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour—Kelston) to the Minister for Social Development: Is she concerned that child poverty rates of up to "20 percent have become entrenched into New Zealand's economic and social structure" according to today's Salvation Army report?Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development): No and I disagree with their actual conclusion which is that—and the full quote is: "In other words child poverty rates of between 8% and 20% have become entrenched in New Zealand's economic and social structure." I would also point out that the statistics that the Salvation Army uses are not new numbers; in fact they are taken from the Ministry of Social Development's Household Incomes Report which we released in September last year and which were released again by the Children's Commissioner in his Child Poverty Monitor report late last year. I say to the member that if you read the actual tables that are published in the report instead of selectively quoting headlines—in particular material hardship rates have consistently fallen over the past 5 years. Furthermore I would note—as I have noted each time these figures have been released—that this report does not take into account the Government's $790 million child hardship package which provides more childcare assistance for low-income families increased Working for Families payments and raised benefit rates for the first time in 40 years.Carmel Sepuloni: In light of her answer is the Salvation Army then wrong when it says that the "culpability of Government in this lack of progress should be noted—especially through its welfare reforms which have yet to identify any positive impacts on the lives of poorer New Zealand children"?Hon ANNE TOLLEY: If the member had listened to my answer of course I dispute what the Salvation Army's conclusions are taken from the evidence not even to mention the fact that over 50000 children are no longer living in benefit-dependent homes when all of the evidence shows that as long as they are living in benefit-dependent homes they are destined for lives that do include hardship and poverty. This Government has done more than any Government to lift those children out of poverty.Carmel Sepuloni: When the Prime Minister claimed that he was "proud of the steps the Government has already taken" toward child poverty does that include the fact that child poverty rates have not improved over the last 5 years?Hon ANNE TOLLEY: Just repeating the same stuff does not make it true. If you look at the facts in the report itself they show considerable progress has been made. Is it enough? No. Is this Government content and doing nothing more? No. We all want to make sure that every single New Zealand child in New Zealand has the opportunity to live a great life and all the long list of things that this Government has done which the Prime Minister spoke about the other day are all destined to help those young New Zealanders live that great life.Carmel Sepuloni: Did she agree with Colonel Hutson when he said that "entrenched child and youth poverty has become the new norm." and that "politicians must stop just voicing sympathetic rhetoric and actually take real action to reduce child poverty numbers."; if so will she continue to ignore the Children's Commissioner's call for a cross-party consensus on a target to reduce child poverty?Hon ANNE TOLLEY: No I do not agree with that gentleman's conclusions. I do agree with him that it is time that politicians like those in Labour stop talking about poverty and join with this Government and back this Government and all the measures we have put in place to lift those children out of poverty.Carmel Sepuloni: Given child poverty rates have remained alarmingly high over the last 5 years despite benefit numbers going down does she accept that her failure to collect and analyse off-the-benefit outcomes means that "Just what has happened to these people and whether they are better off or worse [remains] a mystery."?Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I have said several times in this House that we have commissioned research pre- and post-welfare reforms to see exactly what happens to people who go off benefit. But the evidence is very clear—and the Labour Party really has to get to grips with it—that a life dependent on taxpayers' benefits leads to a life of hardship and poverty not only for the people who are dependent on that support but for their children. So the best way out of poverty is to get people into work and that is what this Government has focused on. We are being successful with it. We know that for some people it is difficult. We are providing training. We are providing money for things like driver licences. We are doing everything we can to support people into employment because that is the best way to lift them out of poverty."