Norman Russel William: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Norman Russel William: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:660;Page:8872] 
7. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister for Land Information 
: How many hectares of land does the Government own in the Mackenzie Country and has the Government given consent for any of this land to be converted to irrigated dairy-farming? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Land Information) 
: 
 The Mackenzie District is 744000 hectares of which approximately 323000 hectares are in Crown pastoral leases. It is not the Government but the local authority acting under the Resource Management Act that consents to a land-use change. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does he consider that converting the Crown’s high country land to irrigated dairy-farming land to be an activity that would affect or disturb the soil? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I am not going to offer a view on that matter. I know that the statutory independent Commissioner of Crown Lands makes the decision on any disturbance to the soil not the Minister for Land Information. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: In light of the fact that it is hard to see converting land to irrigated dairy-farming as doing anything other than disturbing the soil is it not the case that a lessee of Crown pastoral land must not undertake any activity affecting or disturbing the soil without the express consent of the Commissioner of Crown Lands? Has that consent been applied for? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The member is right. There are two instances where consent is required: the first is for soil disturbance and the second is where there are changes to the stocking of that land—that is moving from sheep to dairy or whatever. In both cases those applications are made to the Commissioner of Crown Lands. I am aware of only one application for soil disturbance consent being made and that was for a pipeline that passes over three successive pastoral leases. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Has he discussed with the commissioner the fact that in spite of around 5000 hectares of Crown land currently being before the regional council to be converted and irrigated none of the pastoral land lessees has asked permission from the commissioner to actually irrigate this land in the Mackenzie Country? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: My understanding is that because the Commissioner of Crown Lands is a statutory independent authority I would be acting ultra vires if I were to discuss such a matter with him. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Is it not the case that the Commissioner of Crown Lands must take into account the objectives of ecological sustainability and protecting significant inherent values in the land—the public’s land—when deciding whether the land should be allowed to be converted to intensive dairying? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I understand that the conditions that the Commissioner of Crown Lands must take into account are very very well laid out in the Crown Pastoral Land Act 1998 which some of the conditions the member referred to are part of. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Does the Minister believe that in losing 5000 hectares of dry tussock country—a native ecosystem that is habitat for many species of endangered birds and plants such as the black stilt—we will be losing ecological values? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: Again I ask the member to be very careful about asking for my opinion. I am very very careful not to act ultra vires on such matters. A resource consent for land use should go through the proper Resource Management Act consent for the local authority; for soil disturbance or a change to stocking rate an application should be made to the Commissioner of Crown Lands. I can get myself into a lot of trouble if I start expressing in this House opinions that I am not allowed to. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: What steps will he take to ensure that the public which owns approximately 40 percent of the land that is affected by these proposals in the Mackenzie Country will have a right to decide what happens on that land? Will he support any changes to the legislation to enable the Government which represents the people of New Zealand to have a say over what happens on the public’s land? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I am very sure the public especially the members of the public in this part of the Mackenzie District are very very well aware of the law and how it operates. I am sure lots of those people will make their views well known whenever any resource consent soil disturbance or stocking change applications are lodged. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was not about the people of the Mackenzie; my question was about the Government’s position—whether it would support legislative change to enable the people of New Zealand to have a say over these land-use changes. The Minister talked about the people of the Mackenzie which is fine but my question was specifically about the Government of New Zealand. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have to confess I did not pick up on that part of the member’s question. I will take his word for it and therefore invite him to repeat his question because I did not hear that part of it. 
Dr Russel Norman 
: Thank you Mr Speaker. Will the Minister support a legislative change to enable the public of New Zealand via their Government to have a direct say over the future of these 10000 hectares which they consider to be extremely valuable? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: One of the things I have learnt in this House over many years is to never say I will support something until I have seen the details and the specifics and I know the exact proposal rather than something that Russel Norman may be proposing by way of legislative change on the minute and on the hoof. 
Iain Lees-Galloway 
: Given that uses such as intensive dairy-farming now appear possible in the fragile Mackenzie Basin will the Minister consider placing caveats on environmentally significant land released into private ownership under tenure review to prevent these activities? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: The process of tenure review will take a long time probably 2 to 3 years in the case of those that are right down the pipe already and 5 to 7 years for some of the ones that are only just having applications made. During that very long long process a huge amount of consideration will be given to the issue. Those factors will certainly be taken into account.