McCully Murray: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
McCully Murray: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:607;Page:4417] 
11.  
Hon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National—East Coast Bays) 
 to the  
Minister of Maori Affairs 
: What has been the total expenditure on capacity building and capacity assessment grants by Te Puni Kokiri since the commencement of the programme formerly known as Closing the Gaps and now referred to as reducing inequalities and what monitoring or evaluation has taken place to identify the benefits of these grants? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 The capacity-assessment and capacity-building programmes are collectively referred to as the capacity-building programme. Since July 2000 in the first year $9.2 million was expended. In the second year $8.6 million was expended and in the third year which is this current year $8.6 million was allocated. All projects funded by the capacity-building programme are monitored by Te Puni Kokiri in terms of its contractual requirements. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Given that the evaluation framework for Te Puni Kokiri’s capacity-building programme provides for the organisation that has received the grant to evaluate its own performance—a process that the document calls “an empowerment evaluation” can the Minister explain how he expects any of those projects to be assessed with any objectivity? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I remind that person that there are two parts to that evaluation: those in the sense of over $2000 allocations and those of under $2000 allocations. It is important to say that as part and parcel of the evaluation it is important that the community is involved along with the ministry and other officials. 
Mahara Okeroa 
: What is the purpose of capacity building? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: It has long been needed in this country. Capacity building is a programme that seeks to build the strategy structure systems and skills of whanau hapu iwi Maori organisations and Maori communities to control and undertake their own development and to achieve their own objectives. 
Rodney Hide 
: To assist in this innovative technique of self-monitoring and self-evaluation will he question his executive assistant who courtesy of a Te Puni Kokiri capacity-building grant had an all-expenses-paid trip to attend a training wananga in Auckland where at the morning training session on “admin finances contracts” Maori Sportscasting International explained how sportscasters are paid under the counter through their TAB accounts to avoid tax; if not why not? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I have answered that question several times before. I can assure that member that I have communicated my concerns to the chief executive at Te Puni Kokiri and that that staff member has been spoken to. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was whether the staff member was to be questioned about that not spoken to to assist in self-monitoring and self-evaluation. Being spoken to is not being asked about that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Minister addressed the question. That is the end of the matter. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Can the Minister recall the stern words of the Prime Minister about the importance of the evaluation process when the flagship closing the gaps programme was first announced and the dire warnings of the consequences to departmental chief executives who did not deliver the goods; if so how does he square those statements by the Prime Minister and Ministers with an evaluation process that is undertaken by the people who actually receive the money? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Quite easily. I inform that member that there has been a three-part strategy over that period of time. In the first year in relation to evaluation education cultural heritage the health sector housing social services employment and training and parts of Maori Affairs were evaluated and monitored in the sense of what they undertook. Six more evaluations were undertaken and the agenda is to do many more. I also say that there are different ways of doing an evaluation. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: Given the evidence in recent days of Te Puni Kokiri’s capacity-building grants being used to fund social functions attended in election year by representatives of some political parties is it not a fact that the so-called empowerment evaluations are nothing more than a smokescreen for a multimillion-dollar Labour Party slush fund? 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: Definitely not. I tell that member I am certain that in election year members on the Government side of the House could attest to having attended functions like most of those people over there on the Opposition benches. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is clear that the Minister is now trying to blame other members of this Parliament for attending a function for which the expenditure was clearly illegal. [ 
Interruption 
] It is illegal to hold a meeting and advise people on how to break the law. That is the first illegality and if the Attorney-General does not understand that she should. That is probably why she was a dean at the Waikato law school. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the member will come to the point of order. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I am trying to Mr Speaker without interruption. It is your job to instruct her not to interject. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have ordered the member. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: OK all I ask for is the same rules for everybody. The point is that the Minister sought to involve others in what was an illegal activity clearly because of the advice given by that ministry’s officials and paid for by the taxpayer and that is wrong. He should now be asked to withdraw and apologise or name us. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no member of this House was accused of illegality. I listened to it very very carefully indeed and I have had that confirmed by the advice I have received. 
Hon Murray McCully 
: I seek leave of the House to table a document entitled “Evaluation Framework for Te Puni Kokiri’s Capacity Building Programme”. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.