Genter Julie AnneHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green—Rongotai): Tēnā koe Madam Chair. I'm happy to take my first call in this debate. In responding directly to the comments of the Minister of Revenue I think he right there struck the very heart of it which is that his Government has an ideological belief that people should pay less tax and I think that that's completely at odds with the outcomes that they say they want for New Zealand and that New Zealanders want. The reality is that in most of the countries we aspire to be like that have excellent infrastructure and public services which support the wellbeing of people and by the way better economic outcomes it is funded through taxes and that's why the kinds of countries that we aspire to be like almost universally have higher rates of Government expenditure as a percentage of GDP because it makes sense for Government to invest in infrastructure and it makes sense for Government to invest in public services. But the problem—Carl Bates: Roads of national significance—great infrastructure. Hon JULIE ANNE GENTER: Yeah interestingly enough it makes sense for Governments to invest in public transport in our largest cities. Every person on the Government benches right now seems to be completely in denial about the actual numbers and I think it's because they don't actually know what they are. The reality is that the rates that are laid out in this part of this bill—if we were to examine them and ask are they sufficient to invest in the things that New Zealanders aspire to have in their country like first-class infrastructure that supports people to move around the country and that supports businesses to move their goods—[Chairperson gestures] So the question is—and I am responding directly to comments that the Minister just made which just said Well we think Government should spend less and therefore we don't need to have higher rates." Of course the distributional question around how the rates affect people so whether or not we have a capital gains tax which would actually directly support a much more broad-based and productive economy or whether the rates are more progressive so that those who earn more contribute more—because if we pay it forward like that we will have a more prosperous society. But I realise that members opposite are of a very—I just think that generosity is not something that they understand. The idea that manaaki or being generous—if we have done well we want to give back to our country and ensure that more people can do well—is something that those members just have no concept of. They are just stuck in a kind of religious zealotry around the idea that rich people should pay less tax and that we should spend money on roads not on things that move more people and goods at lower cost and that's the heart of it. The sad thing here is that I genuinely believe many of them want better outcomes for New Zealand but the reality is that when you look at the evidence of what works and what will deliver the outcomes we want which is good infrastructure good public services and good support for the disabled people and their whānau in our country then we need to spend more money for public good and the fair way to do that is to have higher rates for those who have more because allowing incomes and wealth to be concentrated in a smaller and smaller group of people does not result in a country that does better overall. It is just simply not true and it has been refuted by all of the data of the last 30 years globally and that's why we're such an outlier. They lament the lack of productivity in New Zealand? If we want to be productive we should have more broader-based tax and we should have higher rates like Australia does for those who earn more. Australia has a capital gains tax. Australia has higher rates and a stamp duty. Australia has a much more progressive tax system with a tax-free threshold on the first like 10 or 20 grand of income and they have higher rates for higher-income earners and universally almost every country in the world that we would aspire to be like does exactly that. But instead you just hear this empty rhetoric of absolutely meaningless soundbites saying "Our country and the world must tax itself to prosperity." I call rubbish on that—you know show us the numbers. Show us the numbers because most countries that have flatter taxes and lower taxes than New Zealand have worse outcomes in terms of inequality and that affects the wellbeing of everyone in the country. We end up spending more money on prisons rather than investing in people to be the best they can be. We end up with a kind of weird divided society of people living behind walls and being fearful for their security because they're allowing their fellow countrymen to live in poverty."