Woolerton R Doug: Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill — First Reading 
Woolerton R Doug: Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill — First Reading 
[Volume:632;Page:4466] 
R DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First) 
: 
 I move that the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Sorry—does the member realise he has a speech in reply? 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Thank you. I apologise for being presumptuous. I cannot get over the glowing attributes and support that New Zealand First members have found ourselves receiving. I was moving ahead of myself and I apologise for that. 
It does sadden me a little bit that when changes are suggested like taking out the words “the principles” from legislation it is interpreted as New Zealand First—or in particular myself—wanting to take out the provisions relating to the Treaty of Waitangi. That is not the case. I said that several times throughout my earlier speech and I say it again. We are not here to take the Treaty of Waitangi out of legislation; it is the words “the principles” that we want removed. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. Kia ora Madam Speaker; kua rongo au i te korero o te mema nei. I tenei wiki te wiki o te reo Maori e tika ana kia whakahua i nga ingoa Maori i runga i te tika. Ara— 
[ 
Thank you Madam Speaker. I have heard this member’s address. During this week the week for the Maori language Maori names should be pronounced correctly. Indeed— 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Points of order should be succinct. Have you finished? 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. The member will be seated when I am on my feet. Te Ururoa Flavell had you finished? 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I te tatari au ki te tangata nei. 
[ 
I was waiting for the interpreter. 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member paused and I was asking him whether he had finished. We will have the interpretation thank you. 
[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: He inoi— 
[ 
A request— 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. I am dealing with this point of order. Are you saying that the interpretation— 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: No no 
kei te pai. He inoi kia ki “Waitangi” kaua ko te “Waitangi”. Ae. 
[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
[ 
No no it is fine. I make a request that it be pronounced “Waitangi” (with the second “a” sounded like the “u” in cup); and not “Waitangi” (with the second “a” sounded like the “a” in man). OK. 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I warn the member that that was not a point of order. He should not have interrupted the member’s speech. [ 
Interruption 
] Mr Henare I am ruling on a point of order; I am speaking. I warn the member. I am dealing with the point of order. There will be silence during points of order—that includes you Mr Hide. 
Rodney Hide 
: What have I done? 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I was ruling on a point of order. Members know very well there will be silence while I rule on points of order. That was not a point of order. The member should not have interrupted the member’s speech. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Point of order Madam Speaker. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Do you want to make another point of order? It had better be a different point of order because that was not a point of order. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. A kia ora ra. I roto i te pukapuka nei kei te ki mena ka mau a-hara nei te korero a tetahi e taea ana te whakaputa i te aroaro i mua i te aroaro o te Whare Paremata. Koi nei taku e whai nei. 
[An interpretation in English was given to the House.] 
[ 
Thank you kindly. It states in this book that if a member says something that offends another member the offended member can bring up the matter before the House of Parliament. This is what I was following up. 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: That was not a point of order. The member cannot correct another member’s speech like that. 
Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I thought that the Standing Orders stated that if a member in the House offended another member by what he or she said that was in fact a breach of the Standing Orders. I think Te Ururoa Flavell has rightfully raised a point of order about offensive mispronunciation. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member did not raise a point of order about taking offence. 
Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: No the member did not raise a point of order about taking offence. 
Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. The fact is that he raised the issue of offensive mispronunciation which often happens in this House. That is the reason why he raised the point of order. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: No that is not a point of order. The member did not raise it as taking offence. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Madam Speaker— 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I have ruled on the point of order and it is disorderly to contest the ruling. I have ruled on it. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Excuse me Madam Assistant Speaker. Just to help us at this point in time the difficulty has been perhaps in portraying the korero to the translator. What Mrs Turia has raised is the intent of the point of order which was to draw to the attention of the House and of the member that in this week of Maori language we would appreciate the effort to pronounce words in an appropriate way. At the point in time when I raised the matter it was a matter on which I had taken offence—thus I raised the point of order. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: That was not certainly clear the first time. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: I want to be helpful here. The issue is that members can take offence at what has been said. I do not believe that members can take offence at how something has been said because there are some members in this House whose English in fact offends many people in the way it is produced. We would be forever taking points of order about other members if we could do that about the manner in which something had been said. The key issue is whether somebody has attempted to pronounce the language in an appropriate form. I think that a reasonable attempt was made by the member Doug Woolerton. [ 
Interruption 
] 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated; I will rule on the point of order. The member has spoken to the point of order and I agree with him—it concerns “how”. I agree with the member that we will get ourselves into a lot of difficulties if that is taken literally. 
Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Is it a new point of order? 
Tariana Turia 
: Well it is a clarification. I would like to refer the Assistant Speaker to the time when Rodney Hide pronounced Elmar Toime’s name incorrectly and that was drawn to the attention of the Speaker of the House at the time Jonathan Hunt. So if we Maori people are to continue to allow the mispronunciation of our language then I think that it is a pretty sad day for this House—because that is offensive. 
Lindsay Tisch 
: Maybe I can assist. If the member feels that Mr Woolerton made an offensive remark by not using a proper Maori interpretation or pronunciation and if he feels that that is an offence then under Standing Order 115 he can ask for an apology. So the question is whether the member has taken offence at what Mr Woolerton has said. If he has then there is a remedy. If he has not then there is no case to answer because—as has been said and from what I could hear from where I was sitting—there was actually no offence taken other than at the mispronunciation of a word. So Madam Assistant Speaker I suggest you ask whether Mr Flavell was offended by a misinterpretation or mispronunciation of a word. 
Rodney Hide 
: I just refer to the point that Tariana Turia made and she is quite right. That was at question time. It seems to me that if a Labour MP raises a point of order in this House it receives a very favourable hearing but when members on this side of the House raise a point of order it is shouted down. I distinctly remember that at one question time about 10 or 15 minutes were spent on my mispronunciation of—I am too scared to say it—the name of the gentleman who used to run New Zealand Post and Labour MPs took points of order and were ruled on very favourably. My mispronunciation was considered to be highly offensive because it was me saying it and Labour MPs complaining about it. Here we have Maori Language Week and an Opposition MP is taking offence— 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Ha ha—try his name! 
Rodney Hide 
: You see they can even shout out during points of order and get away with it. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: There will be silence during points of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: Well it should not just be recorded; Judith Tizard should be sent out—because if I were doing it I would be. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. The member’s point of order certainly went on far too long and much of it was not a point of order. Did Nandor Tanczos still want to speak to the point of order? 
Rodney Hide 
: Madam Assistant Speaker I had not finished and if you are going to allow Ministers from the Government side to interject is that a new ruling? The point I am making is that there seems to be two rules in this House. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member knows he cannot assert that. The member will be seated. 
Rodney Hide 
: But I have not finished. Just because Judith Tizard interrupted me it does not mean I have to stop. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: It does mean you have to stop because I have heard the point of order and ruled that the member has to present the point of order in a succinct way. 
Rodney Hide 
: Well let me summarise in a succinct way because it will affect your ruling. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member will be seated. I have heard the point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: You’re going to get another one. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Please be seated. 
Nandor Tanczos 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I want to draw your attention to perhaps another dimension on this issue. It relates to the Speakers’ rulings on pages 50 51 and 52 of  
Speakers’ Rulings 
. Speaker’s ruling 50/6 states: “The Speaker will interpose immediately when in the Speaker’s judgment the word used is offensive; … a member may rise and test the matter …” Speaker’s ruling 51/7 states: “An expression or a word that may be regarded as acceptable parliamentary language in one context may not be acceptable in another context.” and Speaker’s ruling 52/1 states: “The key element in judging whether a word is appropriate is whether it will bring disorder. The inflection the gesture or the menace with which a word is said can also bring disorder.” It seems to me that if there is a constant habit among members of mispronouncing Maori words then that may well be an issue that brings disorder if Maori members of the House in particular and perhaps other members are offended by it. So it seems to me that the application of those Speakers’ rulings may well apply. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: That interpretation could be taken but the point Mr Donnelly made concerned the “how”. If we were to have that there would be extensive points of order that in themselves could bring disorder. Mr Tisch spoke to the point of whether a member had indicated he or she had taken offence at the pronunciation of a word—and I am sure that the member did not imply any offence at all. I would ask Mr Woolerton to move on and to make clear what he was saying. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Absolutely—thank you Madam Assistant Speaker. I would like to make it clear— 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I will hear from just Mr Woolerton. Would the member please continue. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker and I would like to make it clear— 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Now we will hear the point of order. Mr Hide I have finished with your point of order previously. 
Rodney Hide 
: You have not heard this one. During the points of order that were being taken you growled at me Madam Assistant Speaker for talking to Mr Tau Henare and then to Tariana Turia through the point of order while you were speaking. But they were sitting beside me. Is it the ruling now that members cannot speak to a person sitting beside them during a point of order? Is that the new standard because my understanding— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: The member will be seated. The reason I called out to Mr Hide was that I was giving a ruling on a point of order—which is when he spoke—after I had already warned the other member. 
Rodney Hide 
: But— 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: No the member will not continue. I have dealt with that point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: Well you haven’t. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: I will just warn the member. His bill is coming up; I do not want to send him out. I just ask him to show some respect to the House. 
Lindsay Tisch 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I think this can be brought to a conclusion just by asking the member whether he took offence. If he took offence then I am sure Mr Woolerton will apologise for that and we can move on. It is very clear under Standing Orders 115 and 116 which I mentioned before that the question you should ask of Mr Flavell Madam Assistant Speaker is whether he took offence. If the answer is yes then I suggest you ask Mr Woolerton to apologise so we can move on. If he did not take offence then there is no issue and we should move on. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ann Hartley) 
: Thank you Mr Tisch. I have already asked the member that and certainly he has indicated that he did take offence. I have dealt with that as I said to Mr Woolerton. Mr Woolerton was just in the process of standing up to continue his speech and indicate how he saw the matter. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Indeed I was. I was just going to say I am sorry if anybody took offence at my pronunciation. I apologise for that. In fact very often people say I do not even pronounce my own name properly and often people think I am of Australian extraction. Unfortunately I do not pronounce some words properly but as my colleague Brian Donnelly said if Te Ururoa Flavell allowed us to use his nickname “Jimbo” I might be much better off. 
But I was in the process—I have almost forgotten now—of saying that it is unfortunate if every time we seek to make a small change to anything around the Treaty either we are accused of being racist or our intentions are misinterpreted. It saddens me that that is the case because what we have been accused of is certainly not our intention in this bill. The intention in this bill is to make things clearer— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: This member should have been a Minister. 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: Absolutely! The intention is to make things clearer where the law mentions the Treaty of Waitangi and to give clarity to the law. I am in no way offended when Mr Finlayson of the National Party says that the bill in my name needs a bit of tidying up. He has undertaken— 
Hon Tau Henare 
: Needs a bit! You need to rewrite it! 
R DOUG WOOLERTON 
: I am pleased that Mr Finlayson is a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee because the task would be way way beyond the capabilities of Mr Tau Henare if we were unfortunate enough to have him in that select committee. I have total confidence that Mr Finlayson will be able to tidy up the bill in the manner he has suggested. I do not take offence at that. I take that as constructive criticism which I am sure is the way it was meant. 
It is good to see the support for my bill in the House. I look forward to the debate on it in the select committee and I want to repeat for about the fourth time that it is not the intention of this bill or of New Zealand First to do away with the clauses of the Treaty of Waitangi. We just want to get rid of one word: “principles”.