Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Brownlee Gerry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:619;Page:14804] 
10.  
GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What information or instructions did the Acting Minister receive from the Prime Minister regarding the extent and appropriateness of Community Employment Group staff involvement in the Maori Party and did that information specifically name any official? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment) 
: 
 The Prime Minister left the Acting Minister a phone message passing on concerns referred to her by the Hon John Tamihere that staff from the Community Employment Group’s northern regional office and specifically the manager Ms AmokuraPanoho were actively involved in the Maori Party. That involvement included attending a recent hui. At a meeting on 20 July 2004 the Acting Minister passed on the information to the Secretary of Labour. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Is the Minister telling the House that we now live in a country in which Ministers dispatch their taxpayer-funded staff to spy on their political opponents then ring the Prime Minister personally on her cellphone to report on those officials by name so that the Prime Minister can personally instruct the Acting Minister for Social Development and Employment who in turn instructs the Secretary of Labour with the result that the political opponent resigns her job; does the Minister understand that that sort of conduct might be what we expect in a country like Zimbabwe but not in New Zealand? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: No I am absolutely not telling the House that. That kind of behaviour would be the kind of behaviour found in Zimbabwe and if that is the kind of politics that that member wants perhaps he should go there to practise them. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have sat here and listened to those answers and it seems to me that Mr Brownlee summarised exactly what the Government has been telling us in the House. The Minister says no that is not what happened and I think he owes the House the courtesy of explaining for our benefit where Mr Brownlee had it wrong. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No that is not a point of order. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Is it usual for the Prime Minister to leave messages on Ministers’ phones naming civil servants and giving instructions—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is the warning for the day—[ 
Interruption 
]—and that is the second one. There will be a couple of people leaving. I ask Mr Shirley to please start his question again. He is perfectly entitled to ask it. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Is it normal for the Prime Minister to leave messages on Ministers’ phones naming civil servants and giving instructions for action; if it is not normal practice what are the particular circumstances that led to this extraordinary action covering this event? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The first part cannot be answered as it should be to the Prime Minister. The second part can be because it deals specifically— 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am still ruling. Please be seated. I said the first part should really be directed to the Prime Minister. The second part is in order and can be asked. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Is it usual for the Prime Minister to leave messages on Ministers’ phones? Surely a Minister is able to answer that. That is asking the Minister whether it is normal. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Certainly that particular Minister is required to answer about calls to him but not about calls to other Ministers. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: The Prime Minister frequently leaves me messages; they are never of the kind that the member has raised. As I said in the House yesterday in terms of this question what happened here is that when the Prime Minister does receive information about anything at all that is appropriate for a Minister to handle she passes it on to that Minister. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: Did the Acting Minister inform the Secretary of Labour that the complaint came from the Prime Minister; if so does he think that informing an official that such information came from the Prime Minister may have been a strong hint to him about what action he should take? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: My understanding and I am advised by my colleague Ruth Dyson is that she passed on concerns that had been raised by the Hon John Tamihere about the northern regional manager. Two officials were at that meeting and James Buwalda was present at that meeting. The implication that the member raises is simply wrong. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. At the risk of upsetting you Mr Speaker I ask you to consider most carefully what is happening to our question time. Mr Brownlee asked whether the message was that the Prime Minister had raised that concern. It was very specific. Mr Maharey never addressed whether it was passed on that it was the Prime Minister. That was the point of the question. I do not see how one could conclude that it was addressed. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thought it was in the last few words that the Minister said. If he would like to say it again he can. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I said specifically that the Acting Minister advised me that she passed on to James Buwalda that information from the Hon John Tamihere had become available to her. She did not mention the Prime Minister. That is what I specifically said—John Tamihere. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I wonder whether the Minister can help us. Which bit of what we have been talking about is not right? Is it the bit that Mr Tamihere rang the Prime Minister or is it the bit that Ms Dyson after having had a conversation or a message left with her from the Prime Minister rang the Secretary of Labour and does he expect us to believe that in reporting this situation to the Minister she managed to leave out that the Prime Minister had required that particular course of action? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: There are three questions. Yes Mr Tamihere rang Ms Dyson met and I have just said that Ms Dyson made it clear that the information was raised by the Hon John Tamihere. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Perhaps the Minister has misunderstood my question which effectively was whether he could assure the House that in the Associate Minister’s discussions with the Secretary of Labour she did not mention that the information came to her from the Prime Minister—because it did not come to her from Mr Tamihere. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Mr Maharey might like to say it again. I heard him answer it quite clearly. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I made it clear before that the Acting Minister said that her information came from John Tamihere and did not mention the Prime Minister. The fundamental question here is one of pressure. The employee concerned has said repeatedly that she chose to resign without any pressure at all. 
Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I ask you to have a good look at the  
Hansard 
 record of this question. The question has never been asked about the conversation between the Minister and the Associate Minister yet we constantly got that answer. The question was “Did the Associate Minister say to Mr Buwalda: ‘The Prime Minister has passed this information to me. I’m passing it to you.’ ?”. It is a simple question. I want an answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order. [ 
Interruption 
] The member will now leave the Chamber. 
Hon Trevor Mallard withdrew from the Chamber. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There has been a barrage of points of order the last two of which have clearly not been either points of order or relevant or anything. The Minister has answered the question as clearly as one possibly could. Then Mr Brownlee gets up as though he has earplugs stuck in himself asking whether the question had been answered. Naturally on this side of the House that leads to some degree of anger. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The transcript will be available this afternoon and any member can examine and dispute it. It is not my duty to do so.