Russell DeborahDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour—New Lynn): The naming of tertiary institutions is a difficult matter and it isn't just one of your holiday games. You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter when I tell you a tertiary institution must have three different names. And that's about as far I can get on bowdlerising T.S. Eliot on The Naming of Cats". It was brought to mind by a number of the clauses that are in this bill tonight which I want to speak about. And it does go back to the issue of what gets called what. So I'm really delighted to see the addition of the idea of a "community tertiary education provider". I think it recognises a really important group of people within the communities who are offering a type of education. So that's a really good addition there.I'm really pleased to see that "independent tertiary institution" is not going to be carried forward as a label. Partly that's because I come from a university background myself and I'm really entrenched in it and I recognise the power that a name carries. And so that particular name I felt did trade on institutions' standing. I was pleased to see that in clause 9. But the thing that really intrigued me was between clause 9 and then coming to what wānanga may call themselves on application.In clause 36 which amends section 253C of the Act we have here that a wānanga may apply for consent to describe themselves as a university a college of education a polytechnic or an institute of technology. But I was just wondering whether a wānanga could also apply to describe itself as a "community tertiary education provider". There are a number of entities that it can describe itself as—we're bringing into being these institutions called "community tertiary education providers"—but will it be possible for wānanga to perhaps apply to use that or is that something we might be able to consider at a future stage if it's seen to be something that is important for wānanga to be able to do?What I really like about this ability of wānanga to use these labels is that to me it's very enabling. It enables wānanga to provide education in particular ways. And I think it provides credibility and standing beyond just New Zealand. We all know what a wānanga is here; so it's great to have that extra recognition there that means something beyond our shores. But I do wonder about whether or not that "community tertiary education provider" could be extended to wānanga as well.I just want to go back to something else that was raised—incorrectly—by Mr Simeon Brown who asserted that we all agreed on this. Clearly we don't because on this side of the House we don't agree with Supplementary Order Paper 17. We don't actually want that equal treatment principle. It's an odd thing for people on this side of the House to say because we are very egalitarian in our principles but in this case we're saying "Well actually no."I just want to hear a little bit of your thinking around that because again I know having come out of the university sector—you know I've spent far more years there than I really care to count up and it takes more than all my fingers and all my toes—I know the importance of research in universities. That's a critical difference between I guess the universities and the polytechnics. It is research-led teaching. In fact in order to succeed as a teacher at a university you do need to be doing research. It's measured. My experience is that the best teachers are often also the best researchers. They're the people who do engage in that critical thinking.So I was really just wondering if that was the kind of thinking that was underpinning what's going on there where we're saying "Well actually no; there's something a little bit distinctive that universities do that is not the same as private tertiary institutions." And I would like to hear a little bit more about that if you have time. And so that is something about which we do disagree on this side of the House. So to the Minister if you are able to enlighten me on some of those points that would be very helpful. Thank you."