Little AndrewHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Justice): Thank you Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the Psychoactive Substances (Increasing Penalty for Supply and Distribution) Amendment Bill. I'll begin by saying that I think every member in this House recognises that this is a serious issue and the sponsoring member clearly recognises that it is a serious issue. He's made the effort to bring this bill to the House and run it through and come back here for this second reading. I suspect that Mr Brown asked himself and continues to ask himself the same question that I do—and I ask it of officials and I asked it of them recently: what is it that we can do as quickly as possible to stop the next death as a consequence of these substances being available? That's the urgent challenge that we now have. We know these substances are out there they're in the community they're being used they are harming people they are causing injury and they are causing death. And when we hear that there are coroners now investigating between 40 and 45 deaths attributed to the use of these substances—psychoactive substances or synthetic cannabis as they are called—then we have a very serious issue that we have to address. The sponsoring member takes the view that more punishment or the threat of more punishment will be enough to decrease possibly even eliminate supply so that we remove the threat. Now that type of thinking is so far removed from the lived experience of those people using these substances that it beggars belief. Actually that is not the way—whether it's the pushers or the users—to deal with this issue. The question we might ask is not just about supply—we know folks are out there taking advantage of the vulnerable peddling these vicious substances causing mayhem and harm and death but there are people who are in the market to purchase the stuff. People are looking for a high a rapid high and sometimes in fact often a very dangerous high and a very dangerous reaction.We might ask ourselves the question: why is that happening? Why are people feeling the need? What is it in their lives that drives them to want to search out this stuff to not particularly care about the substance they're taking or to be misled and not be cautious at all because they're so desperate to achieve a high and a very cheap one? And when we look at the kind of typical profile of the users of synthetic cannabis they are people who are the more marginalised in our community folks living on the street mostly disconnected from a lot of institutions and a lot of social norms people who live on the street day to day. They are the users of this substance. Just saying You know what? We're going to increase the possibility that somebody peddling this stuff might go to jail for longer." is somehow going to stop the supply? I doubt it because as we know with supply one guy goes into prison and there's somebody there to take their place straight away. Is increasing the sentence going to change demand? Uh-uh. Not at all. Not ever. This doesn't change the fundamental problem and the challenge we have in this country with drugs particularly drugs that are dangerous that are potentially fatal is actually to start to deal with the real problem. What is the source of the problem and what can we do to stop the user feeling that that is the best option for them that that is the way out for them?As for increasing the potential prison sentence we know of course that the justice system won't impose the maximum sentence except in the most extreme and extraordinary cases. So it won't be eight years. Simeon Brown: So two years.Hon ANDREW LITTLE: You'll lift it from two years but it will never be eight years but it might be a little bit more than the average sentence now. Will it change a thing? Will it change a thing? I take the word of the police officers who I meet who say "Uh-uh. That ain't going to make a difference. There's other stuff we need to do." And they are out there doing it trying to get to grips with the social issues the social questions that are driving young often and mainly disconnected people who feel as if they've got no hope no option no choice not much of a life. What are we doing about that? How are we helping that problem? Because that's the real challenge.I have immense respect for the member who's just spoken the Hon Mark Mitchell and there is a lot that we can agree on and I'm sure at some point will agree on. But what this bill ought to kind of demonstrate to us to this House to every member in this House is that we have a major challenge in this country in this great country of ours in these strong good communities of ours. We have this insidious problem at least with this form of drug—synthetic cannabis as we call it.Actually what this bill ought to lead us to do and ought to lead Mr Brown to think and to act upon and all members opposite to act upon is to say "You know what? We're all in this together. These are our communities that all of us in this House are here to represent." And if we're serious about addressing the synthetic cannabis problem the other psychoactive substances problems the other drug problems that we know are causing mayhem the meth problem—the peddling of which leads to much longer sentences than for synthetic cannabis at the moment; sentences that haven't done a thing for supply—we might want to think together all of us that there is a set of other problems underpinning this one that we might want to work together on.I would invite members opposite including Mr Brown who I know is passionate about this issue—that's why he's gone to the trouble of bringing this bill here—and say "Let's find a way that all parties in this House and all members in this House can work together on these problems and find some real solutions." Those members opposite—of course they should be heaping the pressure on this Government and my colleagues and members on this side of the House and talking about the need for a well-rounded whole solution not just parts of it; not just the rhetoric not just the kind of grandstanding measures the chest-beating "We'll increase the penalties and do more punishment." because that doesn't fix the problem.So as we consider this bill I invite members opposite to take the opportunity to consider whether or not extending the punishment for a small fraction of the problem the peddlers is really going to make a difference. Because there is no evidence that it will and all the evidence points to there being a broader set of problems that need a whole range of solutions and different aspects to those solutions. When this House gets the opportunity as it almost inevitably will in the next two years and when we start to grapple with some of these health issues and the social issues that are driving this I would hope that members opposite might find it within themselves to say "You know what? None of us has a monopoly of wisdom on this. None of us can claim to have all the solutions or the best solutions but within us we have effective solutions a number of things a range of things a range of responses that can make a difference." That's the challenge for this House; not this bill not this legislation. That's why we'll continue to oppose this. We—my colleague the Minister of Health the Hon David Clark and my colleague the Minister of Police the Hon Stuart Nash and other members on this side of the House and non-executive members—are working hard to face the challenge of finding the range of effective solutions that mean that the young people who are prone to using these substances who are attracted to these substances and young middle-aged and older people who are disconnected whose lives have fallen apart and who are attracted to a cheap high might actually get a more effective solution from the stuff that we can put in place. That's the challenge New Zealand has. That's the challenge this country has. That's the challenge this House has and I invite members to work with us for us all to work together. None of us should be puffing our chest out and saying "I'm the hero here." We've all got to work on this together and find real solutions that aren't about beating up and punishing people but are about helping people in desperate need about calling to account those who would cause harm but ultimately getting the stuff off our streets and making life better for those for whom it is a misery."