4. Provincial Growth Fund—Tree-planting Programme and Benefit to EconomyHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of ForestryProvincial Growth Fund—Tree-planting Programme and Benefit to Economy4. Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National) to the Minister of Forestry: How many jobs trees or other returns does he expect to be produced or generated by the $485 million from the Provincial Growth Fund so far announced for forestry and in what years will that money be spent?Hon SHANE JONES (Minister of Forestry): The $480 million - odd dollars accessed from the Provincial Growth Fund will lead in a forestry sense to at least 2000 jobs. The actual commercial returns are the subject of confidentiality between the parties that have transacted with the Crown. In so far as the other returns we conceive it to be nigh on $3 billion. That figure is largely made up of the heavy lifting that our policy will deliver to meet the costs of climate change something that was neglected. It was actually Graeme Hart who brought to John Key the proposal to outline a policy of this nature and it was killed by Nick Smith.Hon Gerry Brownlee: That is a lie.SPEAKER: Order! Who said that?Hon Gerry Brownlee: I did.SPEAKER: Stand up withdraw and apologise.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I withdraw and apologise. It was a misrepresentation. SPEAKER: Order! The member will stand withdraw and apologise for the nature of the former one—and he's on his last warning for the day.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I withdraw and apologise.Hon Paul Goldsmith: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There were two parts to the question and he didn't answer the second part—in what years will that money be spent. But he didn't answer half of the first part either where I asked how many trees. I didn't get an answer on the trees.SPEAKER: No there was an or". There was an "or" in there but the member will answer the second part of the question.Hon SHANE JONES: The second part of the question relates to accountancy. As you know when the Crown advances capital in the creation of an asset there is a revenue column and an expense column. The commitments from the fund will be made; however the cash will be transferred as is the case with accrual accounting over a longer period of time. But an expense incurred in relation to the provincial fund will have definitely been entered into the Crown books by the time 2020 comes around.Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation in respect of the accusation that was made in regard to Shane Jones in my role as Minister for Climate Change Issues.SPEAKER: OK I am going to put that but I think the member should have either done it immediately or left it till the end of the question. But there were three people who interjected during that point of order. They might have been anticipating the leave and that is some excuse but the process is always that one waits until the leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] Order! Both of you.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Isn't 2000 possible jobs for $485 million a lean return and isn't it more likely that $485 million left in the hands of New Zealanders to invest in their own business or whatever they thought best would produce more jobs?Hon SHANE JONES: I can't go past the gargantuan figure of $3 billion worth of economic upside for the New Zealand economy. Now the jobs will largely be based in the provinces and I think it's very arrogant and presumptuous of the member to imagine that he can think better than the people who are lining up to develop the forestry industry to develop the policies that will lead to a $3 billion positive outcome.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Is he saying—and I think he used the figure of 60 million extra trees being planted as a result of this $485 million—that those 60 million trees will save the country $3 billion in climate change obligations?Hon SHANE JONES: The reference to the $3 billion figure—approaching $3 billion—reflects the full gamut of policies that the billion tree strategy represents: refinements to the Overseas Investment Office refinements to the emissions trading scheme grants and an array of joint venture programmes. The 60 million figure that the member refers to is a paltry amount of what we will achieve over the 10-year period. Whilst it's important it does not represent the entirety of the Government's commitment.Hon Paul Goldsmith: I'm not sure I follow that. Will the money being handed out be contingent on hiring New Zealanders to plant the trees?Hon SHANE JONES: There's an insinuation that somehow I as the Minister am handing out the money. In politics envy is a disease and there's far too much of it emanating from the other side of the House. At one level they seek to waste me at another level they seek to emulate me but imitation is the worst type of flattery. I am not handing out the money. There is a robust process where partnership funding will be made available and a part of that will actually relate to forests within the member's own environment. So any suggestion that I'm handing out the money personally is unworthy of the time of question time.SPEAKER: Have another go—go on.Hon Paul Goldsmith: Do you want me to rephrase that question?SPEAKER: No just have an extra supplementary.Hon Paul Goldsmith: That's very kind of you Mr Speaker. Was the Ngati Hine Forestry Trust's May 2018 newsletter correct when it said that the Crown had committed to plant a forest on their land in around 25 years' time after an earlier forest had been planted grown and harvested; if so is he planning to pay in the next 10 years for work that will be carried out in the 2040s?Hon SHANE JONES: A word of clarification: did the member refer to 2040?SPEAKER: I think he did.Hon SHANE JONES: Obviously a time when he will be back as a Minister. Now I think I need to repeat myself on the question of the Ngāti Hine transaction: it is a matter of confidentiality. It is an orthodox transaction between the Crown and the hapū of Ngāpuhi. They have developed a key resource they are developing the people and I want the Ngāti Hine hapū leadership to focus more on growing trees than undermining Andrew Little's settlement ambitions for Ngāpuhi.Hon Paul Goldsmith: How do we know it's an ordinary commercial transaction when he refuses to release any detail about the transaction; and is he surprised that confidence in this Government is falling to such low levels when we're seeing a Government that's prepared to spend half a billion dollars with such a loose idea of what it's getting for the money?Hon SHANE JONES: Mr Speaker was that the additional supplementary?SPEAKER: I think the member should answer it. I think the last time I clarified a matter for the member he was naughty.Hon SHANE JONES: The policies pertaining to yesterday's announcement—the amounts that were announced in the Budget—are wide open for all members of the public to see. It is not reasonable when the Crown enters into a transaction with a private party to create a commercial venture—we are not going to violate the covenants of that transaction. That is not unusual. It's something that happened at considerable frequency under the last regime and as a member seeking to create a reputation of being a regional development expert he should know better with these paltry trivial questions. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Supplementary question. SPEAKER: No before the member does I think we've had enough of the characterisation of the quality of the questions. I'm just going to advise the Minister to focus on answering the question rather than playing the man. Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister: is the Ngāti Hine forestry venture and trust which was launched near Ngāwhā some time ago the one that he and I attended or is there a trust called "Nattay Hinnay" that we are not aware of? Hon Gerry Brownlee: He's got no responsibility for that. SPEAKER: Well I actually think he does—the first part of the question at least. Hon SHANE JONES: The transaction that the member is referring to is the announcement that the right honourable member and I attended to. I would say that other Ngāti Hine forest transactions already exist between the Crown and they were subject to decision making under the last regime. There is nothing unusual and there is nothing strange about the Crown transacting with Ngāti Hine a hapū of the Ngāpuhi tribe. Hon Paul Goldsmith: Well how can we know there is nothing unusual when we know from a newsletter from the trust that the Crown is going to pay all the costs and on a much more favourable basis than they would have received from the private sector and that they're not only going to pay for one lot of forests to be planted and chopped down and harvested; they're also going to pay for another forest to be built and handed over 100 percent to Ngāti Hine? How do we know that that is a normal ordinary transaction and we're getting good value for money out of taxpayers' funds? Hon SHANE JONES: I think that's a reasonable question and I don't mind assisting the member gain tuition from the forestry industry. There is no shortage of examples in the forest sector where parties transacting to grow forests absorb an obligation to replant the forest. Not only is that very important in this case; it's importance will grow as climate change obligations increase. Any suggestion that this model is somehow off the provincial fund reservation is I think unfair."