Whaitiri Meka: Social Housing Reform (Transaction Mandate) Bill — In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeWhaitiri Meka: Social Housing Reform (Transaction Mandate) Bill — In Committee[Sitting date: 17 February 2016. Volume:711;Page:9120. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]MEKA WHAITIRI (Labour—Ikaroa-Rāwhiti): A good call. Tēnā koe Mr Chairman. Tēnā tātou katoa. Thank you for allowing me to take this call on the Social Housing Reform (Transaction Mandate) Bill at Part 2. My contribution is really probably hoping to get some clarification from the Minister in the chair the Hon Paula Bennett. I want particularly to address new sections 50D 50E 50F and 50G as inserted by clause 5 and if I have time I will also touch on new section 50L.When we look at new section 50D it talks about the social housing reform objectives. Clearly there are six objectives. My question to the Minister is really—the experience of being in this House and asking Government Ministers for measurements around poverty for example is that we get a whole lot of confused responses. So in particular for new section 50D I would like to ask you Minister: what measures will be put in place to measure that these objectives are being met and who will be responsible for monitoring them? Given that this legislation is likely to go through the House I would like to put a stake in the ground that we get measurements early on in your piece of legislation so that when we monitor the performance of this in meeting these social objectives we do not have any confusion as we have in other areas of the Government. So that would be nice to hear from the Minister.In terms of new sections 50E 50F and 50G they talk about enabling the Ministers to have these enormous powers basically to do as they will in terms of the social housing programme. I listened intently to the Minister. As a former public servant I valued the independence of delivering and administering the programme of the Government of the day. I listened intently to the Minister’s response around why we feel that we need to empower Ministers when we not only have Housing New Zealand officials but actually have an independently appointed board.What I heard the Minister say was that it was about administering the Government’s programme. That is what she said. She said that “The reason why Minsters are in this legislation—the enormous power that we are giving to Ministers—is that we simply do not trust our public servants in Housing New Zealand we simply do not trust the board members on the incorporations we do not trust them and that is why we have to put ourselves in the role.” If I have got that wrong please correct me Minister but when you said “administer the Government’s programme” that is what we have public servants for.Hon Judith Collins: No no no.MEKA WHAITIRI: Yes we do. That is why we are renowned because we are at arm’s distance from the Crown which is why you have public servants. But these particular new sections that I have mentioned—50E 50F and 50G—clearly allow the Ministers to act over and above the advice that they may get from the board and over and above the advice they may get from their officials.When we get to that point—and may I just slightly diverge to say that in the late 1980s the Secretary of Labour at the time Jas McKenzie led a public sector review on the basis that Ministers of that time had way too much power. He led a public sector review to ensure that there was arm’s distance between the Crown the Ministers and the Public Service.My entry into the Public Service was in those late 1980s and I valued that we administered the programme on behalf of the Crown. The State Sector Act gave us that responsibility and I feel that this piece of legislation calls that State Sector Act into question. Perhaps the Minister would like to comment on how she feels that the public servants in this country who do a great job now are seeing a whittling down or removal of the role and function and impartiality that all public servants—well in my time—valued. I particularly have issue with those sections.Moving to new section 50L and everybody on both sides of the Chamber well particularly the ones who are working tonight on this side talked about the notification that—when I look at subsection (1)(a) in new section 50L it talks about the publication of a social housing transaction. It says: “publish a notice in the Gazette describing the general nature of the social housing transaction;”. Perhaps the Minister could actually explain to the House what the test of “general nature” is i.e. could “general nature” be that “I just sold some homes.”? Could “general nature” be that “It was two but really it was 10.”?Really I just feel that there is not enough information and I want to hear from the Minister herself what the test is that will meet “general nature”. Because we are allowing Ministers so much freedom to do what they will I believe that we need a lot more specificity around the frame or the two words “general nature”.The second point of clarification I would like the Minister to address is subsection (2)(b) of new section 50L where we say: “ensure that the notice remains on the site and accessible to members of the public at all reasonable times.” Again if the Minister would like to explain to us what the exceptions are of what is reasonable. When is it not a reasonable time? It is important because this document is so wafer thin when it comes to accountability of the Ministers—I would implore the Minister that we need to tighten up on statements like “general nature” that we do need to tighten up on what “reasonable times” is simply because you are asking for much more power than we have ever seen any Ministers have in terms of our social housing stock and our social housing objectives. Right now this particular legislation does not meet any of those tests. Thank you.