Clark DavidANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): Thank you Mr Chair. This will be my last question in this specific stuff. I just hope the members on the other side if they want to make a contribution should feel they should be making a contribution rather than sitting there passively because this is a very important bill. So hopefully they're going to stand up—and I'm looking at the other side—and make a contribution and ask some decent questions. So just to the Minister sorry to labour this point but this is where the rubber hits the road. So what I understand—the kūmara one—is it's inevitable the commissioner would refer that to the Māori Plant Varieties Committee and I understand that. What he just said—and I just want him to be clear about it. What he has said is the first thing is: is it kaitiaki? That's the first issue. And if it is then obviously that's in the jurisdiction of this committee. The second thing is as you—and I'm saying this to the Minister. The Minister said that they need to have gone through a proper consultation process with Māori. So in the case of the kūmara what has that involved? Because you know Māori are not just one group—it's many iwi. So what might that process be to get the big tick from the Māori Plant Varieties Committee? But if the Minister's saying you only have to follow a proper engagement process with Māori and that gets you through the next stage that's fine. But many people who are in the process of developing new plant varieties will want to know what are the commercial outcomes—are they required to enter into a commercial agreement with Māori? Because in the process of consultation if it's deemed to be kaitiaki is there any obligation or anticipation from Māori that they would have an ability to be able to be involved in the distribution or use of their intellectual property—that plant variety species. That is the rubber hits the road issue. If he can provide some clarity around that because I think there will be many people listening to this debate saying This is the most crucial point." And course the process for that coming back to the Hon Todd McClay's point is that takes a long time and is going to take a huge amount of consultation with different Māori groups and stuff like that. That's when the market will act and actually move and look to develop products overseas.Hon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs): The focus of the committee when it's looking at Māori plant variety rights is that there are no adverse effects on the kaitiaki relationship. That's what their focus will be. That's to the member's second point. To the member's first point: it's not the commercial relationship aspect primarily. So to the first point "What does the kaitiaki engagement look like?" and the member used example of kūmara. You know there is a while until this bill comes into effect and by the time it does there will be clear guidance on what that engagement should look like—so guidelines. So that will I think give some comfort to the intellectual property owners because they will want to know what good engagement looks like and how they go about it and so that guidance will be provided. And you know you can imagine kūmara will be primarily grown in some parts of the country. It will be I imagine geographical guidance. There'll be just best-practice guidelines for engaging with the relevant folks."