Young Jonathan; Mallard TrevorJONATHAN YOUNG (National—New Plymouth): As we look at this situation we can look back on the audit trail—the paper trail of discussions and hearings at select committee—and we see some comments that I think are relevant. The previous speaker Sue Moroney said that the concerns of the employees were not listened to. That is not the case. Let me say that at the select committee when perhaps that question may have been asked the response was that the chief executive told us that during that period there were a number of instances when the person Joanne Harrison did not fully comply with the ministry policies. However he said that all of the instances were followed up.It may not have brought the result at that point in time that the member may have wanted but the statement was that all of those instances brought to the attention of senior management were followed up. He said that the person Joanne Harrison gave responses that seemed sufficiently credible. I guess in that situation where there are instances that people bring up where they have a concern that policies have not been followed—and it is important for us to understand that policies are there for the protection and the integrity of a Government department—it is important for senior management to listen and to follow up and that is what the chief executive said. He did also say that when he took over his role on 12 July on 13 July he spoke to the Serious Fraud Office and said that there was a need to be open and transparent and the Serious Fraud Office advised him at the time that it and the police needed time to establish a case and to put measures in place to recover the money.So what we see through a long period of time is that matters have been raised matters have been listened to and yes there was a sufficiently credible answer given yet through the process of Government oversight—Office of the Auditor-General Serious Fraud Office and Police—this fraud has obviously been brought to attention a conviction has been won and the perpetrator is serving time in a New Zealand prison. That proves no matter how long it took that a system and a process is in place and that people are listened to.But what the State Services Commission has reported back to us is that those four people who raised these issues were disadvantaged because of that by Joanne Harrison's involvement. That is a wrong thing—that is a wrong thing. That issue was questioned at our select committee and credit to those questions. We need to have a transparent and open system where without fear or favour people can work for the Government for the Public Service for the people of New Zealand and do a job that is going to benefit this country and if they see people ripping off the taxpayer if they see people undermining the integrity of the process of serving the people of this nation they can raise that question without fear.So we know that the State Services Commissioner Peter Hughes has reported back and suggested that there needs to be changes to make our system more robust and Minister Bennett is certainly looking into that and giving it very deep consideration.I think what we see here—in terms of Joanne Harrison—is a very clever person who had incredible intent and purpose and has manipulated a system and a process. We certainly do not want to think that every person who works for a Government agency or entity is like that. So there is a tension and a balance. We must have those processes and systems in place that protect the integrity and the purposes of Government agencies but at the same time it is like—where do you draw the line in terms of police checks over people? So now when it comes to some of these senior positions there are criminal checks. I think that is a response that needs to take place.Professional disadvantage is a terrible thing.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard): The member's time has expired.Jonathan Young: Thank you sir. That went very very quickly.The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Trevor Mallard): It was a 5-minute speech as is the next one.