Volume 712 Week 43 - Tuesday 5 April 2016Text is incorporated into the Bound VolumeVolume 712 Week 43 - Tuesday 5 April 2016[Sitting date: 05 April 2016. Volume:712;Page:10139. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Tuesday 5 April 2016Mr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.Prayers.VisitorsUnited States—Delegation House of RepresentativesMr SPEAKER: I am sure that members would wish to welcome Congressman Matt Salmond and Congresswoman Cynthia Lummis of the United States House of Representatives present in the gallery.MotionsUnited Nations Secretary-General—Nomination of Rt Hon Helen ClarkANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition): I seek leave to move a motion without notice or debate on the nomination of the Rt Hon Helen Clark for the position of Secretary-General of the United Nations.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is none.ANDREW LITTLE: I move That this House express its support for the Rt Hon Helen Clark’s announcement that she will stand for the UN Secretary-General role this year. I note that she has been an exceptional head of the UN Development Programme and brings her experience as a leader of a country and that she is and always has been a trailblazer following a long line of Kiwi women who have broken through the glass ceiling.Motion agreed to.Points of OrderChamber—Visual AidsCHRIS HIPKINS (Senior Whip—Labour): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Last week in the House we had some interchange around the use of visual aids by members in which you indicated that a visual aid could not be held up by a member sitting next to another member. I want to draw your attention having had the chance to consider it now to Speaker’s ruling 64/1 which was a ruling from 2010 by Speaker Smith in which he indicated that although it was not acceptable for members in general to be holding up visual aids it was acceptable for a member sitting next to a member speaking to be holding up a visual aid that they were referring to during their contribution. I just want to seek some reassurance from you that in fact that Speaker’s ruling does still apply and that there is not going to be a change in that practice.Mr SPEAKER: Yes I have given considerable thought to this matter since last week and I think the ruling by Speaker Smith is eminently sensible. It seems to be that when a member is concentrating on the question then it is absolutely appropriate that a bench mate be allowed to assist with the holding of a visual aid.Questions to MinistersTax System—Overseas Trusts1.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) to the Prime Minister: How does he stand by all his statements?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): On foot. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! We now need to get to the serious business of question time with substantially less interjection from quite a number of prominent people in the House.Rt Hon Winston Peters: How can he stand by his statements yesterday that New Zealand “is not a tax haven” and that we “also have an extensive disclosure regime” when specialist law firms on trusts for foreigners point out there is no need for disclosure of identity or trust registration or for any such trust accounts to be audited?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Because I am right. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: This is now the third time I have asked for a little bit of cooperation and I am going to have to expect it in the future.Rt Hon Winston Peters: How can he argue that he is right and that our legal requirements and obligations are both transparent and require disclosure when the Inland Revenue Department is not required to share information with foreign jurisdictions unless that jurisdiction suspects offending and then asks it for information?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Because I am correct and the member is wrong.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not saying that I am right. I am asking him a simple question that does not require that flippant answer now twice.Mr SPEAKER: No the question started with “How can he argue that he is right” and the Prime Minister gave an answer that satisfied that. The member might not agree with it but it addressed the question.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Does he agree with John Christensen the executive director of Tax Justice Network that: “Trusts are used in many instances as one of the basic building blocks of these sophisticated tax evasion structures.”; if not why not?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I am not here to be a tax trust expert but people use trusts for all sorts of reasons. They use them because they want to have their assets held because they may for instance be sued or they may use trusts for all sorts of other reasons. Members of this House use them all the time.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Quoting from this long statement from the Prime Minister: “Tax havens are where there is non-disclosure of information. New Zealand has full disclosure of information so all you’ve got is a situation where New Zealand has taken a different view from a lot of jurisdictions and that’s because the way we tax is we tax a settlor in other words it’s all about making sure that New Zealanders”—Mr SPEAKER: Order!Rt Hon Winston Peters: —“pay their fair share of tax.”Mr SPEAKER: Order! I do need a supplementary question not a long quote.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Well having to conclude: “it’s all about making sure that New Zealanders pay their fair share of tax.” What on earth does that mumbo-jumbo really mean?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well it sounded a lot better when I said it but the answer was that we tax a settlor and the reason we tax settlors is that it is good tax policy. It stops New Zealanders actually creating taxes in all sorts of foreign jurisdictions and avoiding paying tax in their home country called New Zealand.Rt Hon Winston Peters: If he is right why are so many international commentators and now the Australians having a go at us for being in their words “a tax haven”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: As the member knows people throw around all sorts of comments but New Zealand is not a tax haven.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can he assure this House that none of his present or former Ministers—that is him as Prime Minister—have been and are involved in tax haven activity?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I cannot speak for any other member because we have a pecuniary interests list that people have to record but as I have recorded on my pecuniary interests I have two trusts. One of them has been the long-established trust I have had in my wife’s name the JP & BI Key Family Trust and the other is the Aldgate Trust which was established so it could be a blind trust so that when I became Prime Minister all of my assets could go in there. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! The Hon Amy Adams I have called for order.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is that blind trust one with 20/20 vision?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have no ministerial responsibility there other than to say that a blind trust was established as other Prime Ministers have because it is good practice to do so.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Why since he has become the Prime Minister has there been a threefold increase in offshore trusts operating in New Zealand were it not for the discovery internationally of just how lax our tax money - laundering disclosure regime is?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: That is not true. Tax laws around trusts were established in New Zealand in 1988. The disclosure regime change was implemented in 2006. Subsequent to that there have been a number of other things that have been done to improve aspects of trusts. In 2013 the OECD gave a report on New Zealand and fully cleared New Zealand.Rt Hon Winston Peters: If that is the case why subsequent to that date he gave as the reason why we should be all relaxed about it have the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment and Treasury expressed their concern about the existence of tax haven activity in New Zealand and why should we believe him and not them?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: As I said in 2013 the OECD gave New Zealand a clean bill of health. What has also happened is that New Zealand continues to work with the OECD about its base minimisation but the Inland Revenue Department regularly puts up a menu of options that could be looked at as part of its work programme. It was not the No. 1 priority for the Government at the time because compared with other measures where we could have them working it would actually be about collecting more tax for New Zealanders.Tax System—Overseas Trusts and Disclosure Regime2.ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement that New Zealand is not a tax haven because “New Zealand has full disclosure of information” given Cone Marshall a law firm specialising in establishing trusts for foreigners says “The identity of the settlor need not be disclosed and the trust deed is not registered with any tax or Government authority” and “There is no obligation to file any trust accounts with any person or institution or to have such accounts audited”?Mr SPEAKER: As I call the right honourable Prime Minister my office has been advised that this answer may well be longer than normal.Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes because there is more than one step in the disclosure process. Initially a New Zealand resident trustee must submit a foreign trust disclosure form an IR607 which simply records the name of the trust and the trustee’s contact details. However the trustee must also keep detailed financial and other records including the trust deed; details of settlements and distributions including the recipient’s name and address; details of the trust’s assets and liabilities; the identities of the settlors and the beneficiaries of the trust; and money that the trust receives and spends. The Inland Revenue Department can get this kind of information and will give it to the tax authorities in any other country if requested under a relevant tax agreement or proactively if that country wishes. I am advised by the Inland Revenue Department that New Zealand has always been able to comply with these sorts of information requests from treaty partners. This is certainly full disclosure of information. The income in these trusts is quite rightly outside our tax base. It is foreign income earned by foreigners. It is up to other tax authorities around the world to enforce their own tax laws on this income and on their own residents. We can help them do that by providing detailed information to them on request about trusts that are administered from New Zealand. I make the second point which is that we automatically disclose that information to Australia. It is the one jurisdiction that has asked us; no other jurisdiction has. These disclosure regimes which by any definition are broad and deep were the ones passed by the Labour Government in 2006. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order!Andrew Little: Is he seriously telling the House that the only obligation that a foreign trust is obliged to make which is completion of an IR706 form and nothing else constitutes a full disclosure regime for this type of vehicle?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: For a start off it is an IR607 form not an IR706 form. And secondly as I pointed out in the answer which was very long and very detailed that is but the starting point which requires them to keep hugely detailed information of what is in there and report that when required. Those are the rules that Labour thought were right when it passed this disclosure in 2006. If the member is now telling us that Labour got it wrong he should get on his feet and apologise.Andrew Little: Why has he failed to heed the warnings from the New Zealand Law Commission the Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand the OECD and the Inland Revenue Department that New Zealand’s weak offshore tax laws allow wealthy foreigners to subvert laws and dodge taxes?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I am prepared to accept that I made one mistake and that is relying on Labour. It passed the rules.Andrew Little: Can he guarantee that no offshore trusts registered in New Zealand are being used to hide illegally obtained assets or dodge tax?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No Prime Minister can give that assurance any more than Helen Clark could have when this law was passed no doubt with the support of David Parker in 2006. What is quite clear is that New Zealand gives all of that information not only to Australia but to any jurisdiction that asks for it. We have been able to comply with every jurisdiction that has asked. I also note that we have 40 double tax agreements and 11 information-sharing agreements one of which includes Malta.Andrew Little: What effect does he think it has on New Zealand’s reputation when we are viewed as a tax haven harbouring billions of dollars and his only reaction is to boast that it earns us $24 million a year in lawyers’ fees and accountants’ fees?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: New Zealand is not a tax haven. Tax havens do not have the disclosure regimes that New Zealand has. It is as simple as this: if it is such a bad idea it was Labour in 1988 that passed the trust legislation it was Labour in 2006 that had—Rt Hon Winston Peters: Point of order.Rt Hon JOHN KEY: —the disclosure—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! When I rise to my feet it requires the Prime Minister to cease his answer.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. For countless answers now the Prime Minister has departed from doing his job of answering the question and attacked another political party for a law that is 10 years old and 7 years after he got the job. Please ask him to act responsibly and answer the questions he is being asked.Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Prime Minister addressed the question almost immediately and then because he was then responding to interjections which were not—[Interruption] Order! Because the Prime Minister was then responding to interjections it is inevitable that some politics will enter into the argument.Andrew Little: How does he expect to go to international forums and stop multinational corporations dodging their New Zealand tax when he is letting foreign tax-dodgers use New Zealand as a tax haven?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Firstly I believe the latter part of the question from the member to be wrong. Secondly in all of the international forums that I have been in in the nearly 8 years that I have been Prime Minister no one has ever raised this issue with me. I am not aware of them ever raising it with a Minister of Revenue and as I said in 2013 New Zealand was given a clean bill of health by the OECD.James Shaw: Does he acknowledge that the Inland Revenue Department said in 2013 that “our foreign trust rules continue to attract criticism including claims that New Zealand is now a tax haven in respect of trusts.”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have not seen the particular quote but as I said earlier the Inland Revenue Department has come up with a whole range of things it wants on the work programme and I would have thought the most important thing was making sure that New Zealanders actually pay their fair share of tax and that has been the priority.James Shaw: Is he disagreeing with Inland Revenue Department’s advice in 2013 that the way forward is to strengthen our disclosure and reporting requirements with New Zealand foreign trusts?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: What the Government is doing is working with the OECD on its base erosion programmes. It is quite happy to take advice and suggestions from others and over time there may be arguments about things we could strengthen. But if you look at what the requirements are under IR607 they are extremely broad and deep.James Shaw: So is he opposed to greater transparency for New Zealand foreign trusts when greater transparency will only hurt people using foreign trusts for illegitimate purposes?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Clearly not because we have the ultimate in disclosure when it comes to Australia because we give it full disclosure without even making reference to the Australians because they ask for it. We would do it for any other jurisdiction that asked us to do that. If any country wants to come to New Zealand and have the same requirements as Australia has asked us for we will provide it with all that information. As I said in my answer to the primary question which was quite long New Zealand actually collates a great deal of information and it shares it with every jurisdiction that asks us.James Shaw: So would the Prime Minister agree with me that for foreign trusts with nothing to hide they should have nothing to fear from greater transparency?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: In the end if a foreign trust is established in New Zealand it is really important that it does understand that we have a full disclosure regime. It is for it to assess that. We are quite different from the sorts of places that are tax havens where they do not have disclosure regimes.James Shaw: I seek leave to introduce a member’s bill in my name that would end the secrecy around foreign trusts in New Zealand by imposing a registration and disclosure scheme on foreign trusts to be set down as members’ order of the day No. 1.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.Andrew Little: How proud is the Prime Minister of the company he is now keeping when the Panama Papers lump New Zealand in with such auspicious company as Belize the Seychelles and Costa Rica in the list of 21 tax havens?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I think New Zealand can stand quite proudly on the regime that it runs here in terms of disclosure. I am sad that the member is running a country mile from what his colleagues around him did but no wonder they are quiet as—Mr SPEAKER: Order! That answer will not help the order of this House.Andrew Little: Does he not see when faced with the biggest tax-dodging scandal in history and when New Zealand is named internationally now as a tax haven and his only response is to side with the mega-rich tax dodgers rather than cleaning it up under the law that his moral compass is completely broken?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The outrage would be a little bit better if the answer was not actually correct and I will read it to the member again because he clearly did not hear it the first time. Initially a New Zealand resident trustee must submit a foreign trust disclosure form an IR607 which simply records the name of the trust and the trustee’s contact details. However the trustee must keep detailed financial and other records including the trust deed; details of settlements and distributions including the recipient’s name and address; details of the trust’s assets and liabilities; the identity of the settlors and the beneficiaries of the trust; and money that the trust receives and spends. If that is not full disclosure when it is given in totality to any jurisdiction that asks for it I do not know what is.Andrew Little: I seek leave to table a document. It is the OECD 2013 report on New Zealand tax compliance which makes criticisms of our foreign tax regime.Mr SPEAKER: Before I put the leave I just want to check. Is it freely available on the OECD website?Andrew Little: I cannot confirm that. It has been supplied to me in hard copy only.Mr SPEAKER: On the basis that it cannot be confirmed I will put the leave and the House can decide. Leave is sought to table that particular 2013 OECD report. Is there any objection? There is not. It can be tabled.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.Grant Robertson: I seek the leave of the House to table a combined Inland Revenue Department and Treasury paper entitled Tax Policy Report: Taxation of Multinationals dated 15 August 2013 in which the department says: “To protect our international reputation it may be necessary to strengthen our regulatory framework for disclosure and record-keeping.”Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that particular Treasury and Inland Revenue Department report. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] Order! I have put the leave. Any member has the right to object.Economy—Export Sector Performance and Household Savings and Debt3.BARBARA KURIGER (National—Taranaki - King Country) to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received showing total New Zealand exports are growing despite the dairy downturn?Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance): Reports of continued export growth and diversification. Statistics New Zealand reports that in 2015 total exports rose by $1.9 billion supported by a $2.3 billion increase in spending by international visitors and an increase of $895 million in exports of meat products. Partly offsetting this was a $3 billion fall in dairy exports. Other exports are also growing. Annual beef exports are up a third in the last year; international education is now worth $3.1 billion in 2015 supporting 30000 jobs; and wine exports are now worth $1.5 billion up 14 percent in the year.Barbara Kuriger: What reports has he received showing improvement in the net international investment position supported in part by growing exports?Hon BILL ENGLISH: The net international investment position measures New Zealand’s total level of indebtedness to the rest of the world—that is Government households and the private sector. Statistics New Zealand reports this is now 61.4 percent of GDP which is a considerable improvement from the peak in early 2009 when it reached 84 percent of GDP. Net external debt is now 55 percent of GDP down from a peak of 83 percent in 2008. We are moving steadily in the right direction of reducing New Zealand’s indebtedness to the rest of the world. The Government is supporting further improvements by staying on top of spending and remaining on track to pay down debt.Barbara Kuriger: How are higher household savings helping to support resilience in the New Zealand economy?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Since the global financial crisis New Zealand households are saving more probably because they were a bit frightened by the prospect of financial meltdown then. This is reflected in part through higher bank deposits. The latest figures from the Reserve Bank show household deposits in banks totalled $152 billion in February 2016. That is up over 10 percent in the last year and growth in deposits has been 7.8 percent per year since 2009. In fact household deposits in banks have doubled in just 8½ years since August 2007. It means many householders will be better placed to manage through uncertainty.Barbara Kuriger: What recent reports has he seen on trends in household debt?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Interesting trends. Last week the Reserve Bank reported home mortgage lending increased 7.9 percent from the year previous to a total of $214 billion. This growth rate compares with an annual growth rate of 4.8 percent a year earlier. So it has picked up. Overall household debt to disposable income reached 162 percent which is high by international standards. However the ratio of household debt servicing is down because of lower interest rates. So debt levels are higher but the cost of servicing that debt has dropped from 9.5 percent of disposable income to 9.1 percent of disposable income.Housing Market Auckland—Affordability4.ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement from 2013 that if Auckland prices continue at the same rate the bubble would burst and “you would leave a lot of potentially first home buyers with very large loans and an over-valued property and effectively negative equity where they owe more than the property’s actually worth”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): I stand by my actual statement which was “If we continued to leave the housing market completely unchecked in Auckland and it continued to go up at the rate it’s going up then eventually that would be a bubble that would have to burst.” I am pleased to report that since then there have been a number of important steps to increase housing supply and assist first-home buyers. Consents in the city are the highest in more than 11 years interest rates remain very low and we are supporting more home buyers into their first home. We are seeing some early signs that Auckland house price increases could be moderating.Andrew Little: Is he aware that since he made that statement Auckland house prices have gone up nearly $300000 leaving first-home buyers more indebted than ever?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I made that statementin 2013 I think so it sounds like a substantial increase but in the time that we have been in Government—or the last few years in fact since that period of time—we have named and set up 120 special housing areas. There have been 24000 houses and sections consented in the first 2 years of the housing accord. We are reforming the Resource Management Act which we are more than happy to get Labour’s support for if it wants to. An extra 80000 new homes are forecast to be built in Auckland in 6 years in 2020. Interestingly as well Massey University’s Home Affordability Report of today showed that the Auckland property market became more affordable over the past quarter.Andrew Little: How does he expect first-home buyers to realise the Kiwi Dream of homeownership when a standard deposit on an Auckland home has nearly doubled from $100000 to $185000 since he became Prime Minister?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Firstly as the member knows it is possible for banks to lend over the loan-to-value ratio for a certain percentage of the loans they make. Secondly the Government has introduced KiwiSaver HomeStart which as we know for a significant number of New Zealanders is now assisting them in owning their own homes. We also know that interest rates—as opposed to under the previous Labour Government when they were high and expensive—have been dropping dramatically under a National-led Government. The prudent and good economic management of this Government has allowed New Zealanders to enjoy lower interest rates.Andrew Little: How does he expect first-home buyers to realise the Kiwi Dream of homeownership when servicing the mortgage on a lower-end home costs almost half their income nearly 10 percent more of their income than in December 2008?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I just do not get all of the relevant information but if one looks at interests rates—which were up at 8 9 and 10 percent when Labour was in office and are now significantly lower—what we do know is that the capacity to service a house is actually the lowest it has been in New Zealand in about 50 or 60 years.Andrew Little: Is Fran O’Sullivan correct when she says about him—that is the Prime Minister—that “He is frankly unapologetic about the massive increase in Auckland residential property values which has resulted in many established Aucklanders becoming relatively rich but younger people being locked out of the market.”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: One learns when one has been in the job long enough that columnists will make their own assessments and write their own comments all the time. I have read some stuff about Andrew Little that frankly I find a bit disturbing—but it is OK. If the member wants to say that every columnist who writes every column is right in what they say it is going to be a very interesting proposition to stand by.Freshwater Management—Regional Councils5.MARAMA FOX (Co-Leader—Māori Party) to the Minister for the Environment: What steps is he taking to ensure that regional councils are effectively implementing the objectives of their regional resource management plans related to the protection of water quality from further degradation?Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): The Government is progressively strengthening the requirement on all regional councils to better protect our water resources. Prior to 2009 the Government set no minimum standards or requirements and just left it all to the regional councils. The three significant steps that we have taken as a Government are requiring compulsory metering in 2010; the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Quality which requires it to be maintained or improved; and committing over $300 million in clean-ups. I am also currently consulting on further strengthening the national requirements including new national rules on excluding stock from rivers and lakes.Marama Fox: Given that Ngāti Kahungunu had to spend more than $100000 to mount its appeal in the Environment Court to protect environmental standards what steps is he taking to ensure that other iwi and community groups will not have to spend those amounts of money to ensure regional councils will improve water quality over time?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The national policy statement introduced by this Government is having a positive effect. Ngāti Kahungunu succeeded in the Environment Court only because it was able to attribute to the national policy statement the requirement to maintain and improve water quality. A further measure that is going to help iwi to drive improvements in water quality are the measures that the Māori Party has advocated in the Resource Legislation Amendment Bill which ensures a stronger voice in making sure that we look after New Zealand’s precious freshwater resource.Marama Fox: Given that the Hawke’s Bay Regional Council argues that it is impossible to achieve no degradation through the groundwater quality of the Heretaunga Plains and the Ruataniwha Plains aquifer system how will he keep the council honest to ensure it complies and gives effect to the Environment Court’s order to maintain and improve water quality?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The Hawke’s Bay Regional Council as with a number of other regional councils does have the problem of long hydrological cycles where some pollution that has occurred over 30 or 40 years will take some time to work through the system but that does not take away our responsibility and this Government’s role to ensure that we set those strong long-term targets. A further measure that we are taking to strengthen that is the Environment Reporting Act which we passed last year with the support of the Māori Party which for the first time will require regional councils to openly disclose exactly what their water quality is and for it to be independently audited. That will be published for the first time in New Zealand in April next year. I am also undertaking a review of the national policy statement and its implementation by regional councils and I am open-minded about constructive suggestions to further strengthen it.Health Services—Rural Communities6.SCOTT SIMPSON (National—Coromandel) to the Minister of Health: What initiatives has the Government put in place to support health services in rural communities?Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Health): We know that it is a difficult time for many farmers and supporting the regions is a key focus for the Government. A good example is the $500000 that we announced last year to support rural mental health. As a result of that money we have recruited and trained 60 additional rural support trust facilitators appointed 12 regional mental health clinical champions and a medical director to help rural support trust clients in accessing support and held 40 workshops run by Rural Health Alliance Aotearoa New Zealand to raise awareness of suicide prevention.Scott Simpson: What is the Government doing to encourage health professionals to work in rural areas?Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: The Government supports a number of workforce initiatives to ensure that New Zealanders living in the regions have access to the services they need. The Voluntary Bonding Scheme incentivises new graduate doctors midwives nurses dentists and sonographers to work in hard-to-staff communities. To date over 1000 health professionals have been funded through the scheme and just over $23 million has been paid out to eligible participants.Scott Simpson: How has the Government supported health services in the Coromandel by improving access to specialist care?Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: The Coromandel is part of the Waikato District Health Board catchment area. Forty-nine thousand Waikato patients received a medical or surgical first specialist assessment in 2015 compared with 39000 in 2009. That is a 26 percent increase and a record for the region. The answer to increasing demand is to do more and that is supported by the $257 million funding increase that the Waikato District Health Board has received over the last 7 years. That includes $44 million of new money for this year taking the Waikato District Health Board’s total funding to $1.1 billion for 2015-16.Tax System—Overseas Trusts and Disclosure Regime7.JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement that “New Zealand has full disclosure of information” with respect to allegations of New Zealand being a tax haven?Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes as I said in answer to question No. 2 the Inland Revenue Department (IRD) gets information on foreign trusts and gives it to tax authorities in other countries if requested under a relevant tax agreement. Tax havens on the other hand are characterised by financial secrecy so it is ridiculous to suggest that New Zealand is a tax haven. We have a strong tax treaty and information exchange network that helps to discover and prevent tax avoidance through exchanging information between tax jurisdictions. New Zealand has also been a very active participant in the OECD and G20 work to combat tax avoidance. We continue to be a strong voice in this area.Julie Anne Genter: How does an overseas tax department access all of that information if it does not know the name of the foreign trust registered here or the trustee?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: It asks for it.Julie Anne Genter: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Perhaps I did not clarify my question. [Interruption] I meant how do they ask for it if they do not know their name.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am going to invite the member to ask her question again. I could not hear the question because of the level of interjection that was occurring across the Chamber. Can we start again?Julie Anne Genter: Thank you Mr Speaker. How does an overseas tax department ask us for that information if it does not know the name of the foreign trust registered here or the trustee?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: It depends on the country. In the case of Australia that information is automatically given to it as it is in some other cases. Secondly each country will have a different regime and I am not an expert in them but many of those countries will ask for trusts to be registered listed and named so that they can get disclosure.Julie Anne Genter: Have there been any changes to the rules since the IRD warned his Government in 2013 that “there was a risk to New Zealand’s reputation” because of limited disclosure requirements?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The member would have to direct that question to the Minister responsible for inland revenue. They are the ones who have done all the work with the OECD on the base evasionprogramme. But as we know things like factor and anti - money-launderinglegislation have been changing.Julie Anne Genter: I seek leave to table an email dated 24 March 2016 from the IRD that states that it has not progressed any reform in this area.Mr SPEAKER: In view of the answer given I will put the leave. Leave is sought to table that particular email. Is there any objection? [Interruption] Order! Is there objection? There is objection.Julie Anne Genter: How does he reconcile his statement that New Zealand has full disclosure with the Auckland-based Equity Trust International website which advertises its services in the following way: “in New Zealand law a properly structured trust is unbreakable which makes New Zealand at a par with jurisdictions like the Cook Islands but without the stigma of offshore. … This is the secret that wealthy families have been using for years …”?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Lots of companies and organisations come out with slogans. I remember in 1999 the Labour Party slogan was “For a kinder more caring New Zealand”. They were the days before they wanted to throw out Chinese chefs and name Chinese people as bad people in New Zealand.Julie Anne Genter: So is Covisory Partners in Auckland wrong when it wrote in a paper entitled New Zealand A Tax Haven for Foreign Trusts that our foreign trust tax advantages “make New Zealand a great alternative to various tax havens which have negative inherent stigma attached to them.”; and is he concerned that that negative stigma is now getting attached to us?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: They are patently wrong if they are Australian and they may well be wrong if they are from any other country that has asked for that information.Julie Anne Genter: Will his Government beef up the rules around foreign trusts in New Zealand by adopting the member’s bill that my colleague James Shaw tried to table earlier; if not why not?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The Government is not opposed to making changes and we will continue to work with the OECD on base erosion and the like. But if the member really thinks that we are going to adopt their member’s bill that wants to actually name taxpayers’ IRD numbers for instance the member has got to be barking mad if she thinks that information should be in the public domain.Metiria Turei: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That insult was personal and unnecessary and I ask that he be required to withdraw and apologise for that.Mr SPEAKER: On this occasion—[Interruption] Order! I do not agree with the member. When I consider the tone and the length of the question it was a highly political question that was asked. [Interruption] Whilst I am on my feet if I can identify any interjector I will have no hesitation in asking that person to leave. I considered it carefully. I can understand the member may be a little bit upset. It is an expression I have heard used quite frequently by the Prime Minister—not in this House—but I do not think it is a matter for requiring the Prime Minister to withdraw unless the member was to stand to her feet and say she was personally offended.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Order! Just before the member starts the same rules apply to this point of order. I want to hear it without interjection.Hon David Parker: In the prior supplementary question you allowed the Prime Minister to raise irrelevant matters relating to the immigration policy of the Labour Party. If you want to keep order in this House you have to enforce the rules.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Speaking to the point of order.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I do not want to prolong things but when a question is asked and there is a theoretical or a hypothetical statement put it is not unreasonable for the Prime Minister to say: “Well here was a statement made by a political grouping and look what was achieved.”Hon David Parker: Speaking to the point of order.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon David Parker.Hon David Parker: That is not correct. You cannot raise irrelevant matter relating to another question that attacks another party on a subject matter that is not even the subject of the question. The Leader of the House is just wrong. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! We will have only one at a time.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. There are clear rules on innuendo and epithets. If you were saying that some member has to get up and protest himself or herself otherwise you will not take redress it suggests that that member now suffers the embarrassment of repeating the offence. Frankly he might say it outside the House but he surely should not be allowed to say it inside the House.Mr SPEAKER: I am not sure what the point of order that the member has just raised in relation—Rt Hon Winston Peters: Well I will repeat it for you again slowly—Mr SPEAKER: Very slowly—and refer to the—Rt Hon Winston Peters: It is that the phrase “barking mad” is an epithet an innuendo and it should not be acceptable in this House. No one should have to tolerate having to get up and put it right and repeat the offence. Have you got that part clear?Mr SPEAKER: Order! No we are getting to the stage where this has gone on quite long enough. As I repeated earlier it is a remark—I think the Rt Hon Winston Peters makes a reasonable point but if the member Julie Anne Genter is offended by the remark she should stand to her feet and say so.Julie Anne Genter: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not offended; I am more disappointed that the Prime Minister will not answer a reasonable question.Mr SPEAKER: And that certainly is not a point of order.Chris Hipkins: Point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have ruled on this matter. If it is a fresh point of order—Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a fresh point of order. In your earlier ruling you made it clear that a political question would get a political answer. I wonder whether you would consider differentiating between a political answer and simply an insulting answer because I think that is an important distinction to make: one that simply hurls insults at the member asking the question versus one that is giving a political answer that is a legitimate exchange.Ron Mark: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a totally new point of order. The ruling that you have just given could I ask you to possibly reflect? It appears that you have just now countered completely a previous ruling you gave with reference to members taking offence. Previously you have sat members down for taking personal offence and said that it is not whether the member is personally offended; it is whether you the Speaker determine that for the House as a whole this statement was offensive. Now you are saying that we can stand up and take personal offence.Mr SPEAKER: I gather the point. I will decide and in this case I did not think it was particularly offensive so I decided not to do anything about it. As has already been well and truly stated now I invited the member—if she was particularly offended then I would reconsider the matter. The member said that she was not offended. So the matter is now resolved.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: Just before you ask—we have spent quite a lot of time on this—is this a fresh point of order?Hon David Parker: It is. It seems to me the problem is that I could now stand and the House would not be offended by me calling you barking mad. That cannot be the standard of this House because I should not be able to make that epithet—Mr SPEAKER: No. [Interruption] Order!Hon Gerry Brownlee: Point of order.Mr SPEAKER: I will hear from the Hon Gerry Brownlee.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think if you have a look later at the Hansard transcript of this and the later television replay which I know you watch every evening with some interest you will find that there was no specific insult. There was a hypothetical preceded with the word that indicates that by saying “if”.Mr SPEAKER: Order! As I said we have spent enough time on this matter. When I took it from the Hon David Parker that it was a fresh point of order it seemed to me we were just relitigating territory that we had already been through.Ron Mark: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: I will just check—we have spent a lot of time on this—whether it is a completely fresh point of order but if it is in any way canvassing where we have been in the last 5 or 10 minutes I will be asking—[Interruption] Order! I have ruled. There is no need to give me any further help. The member can come and see me later if he wants to but I do not need to prolong this debate. Is it a fresh point of order?Ron Mark: Well it is clarification—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! Would the member just resume his seat. I want to just make it absolutely clear because if the member is raising a fresh point of order I am happy to hear it but if we are in any way relitigating the territory we have covered now for a considerable length of time I will have no hesitation to ask the member to leave the Chamber.Ron Mark: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a fresh point of order regarding Standing Order 386(2)(c). Can you confirm that that applies?Mr SPEAKER: That is exactly the point that was raised by the Hon David Parker about 10 minutes ago. [Interruption] No. Order! We have spent quite—supplementary question?Hon Michael Woodhouse: Yes. Has the Prime Minister seen any reports on how others might attempt to change the foreign trust disclosure rules?Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I have. I have seen a recommendation from another political party that says that the IRD should disclose personal information including passport numbers and people’s IRD numbers. This is from a political party that says that it believes in privacy.Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Could I ask you what happened to the rule that the Ministers and the Prime Minister cannot spend their time referring to another party’s policy? The reason we have question time is to ask the executive as to what—Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] I do not need any assistance. The question was a legitimate question asking about other reports. I was listening very very carefully to see whether it went into a territory of attacking another political party. Up until the time the member got to his feet and took a point of order it certainly did not do so.David Seymour: Has the Prime Minister considered the possibility that wholesale public disclosure of trust details might endanger people at risk of persecution extortion and oppression under repressive regimes overseas—i.e. the type of people the Green Party used to stick up for?Mr SPEAKER: Order! No. That is a question that was in order until the last part of it. I now rule it out of order.Workplace Health and Safety—Legislative Changes8.BRETT HUDSON (National) to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: What changes were made yesterday to modernise New Zealand’s health and safety law?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety): Yesterday saw the first major legislative reform of workplace health and safety laws in 20 years come into force to help New Zealand achieve the goal of reducing workplace death and injuries by 25 percent by 2020. These changes modernise our approach to health and safety by ensuring that everyone from company directors to casual labourers has health and safety responsibilities that reflect their ability to influence or control work. They create the right legal framework. It is now over to every Kiwi from chief executive officers to the newest employees to work together to ensure that they all go home safely at the end of the day.Brett Hudson: Will these changes adversely impact on small and medium businesses?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: No. The Act strikes a balance between ensuring workplaces are safe and not imposing unnecessary red tape on businesses. The new Act requires all businesses to target risks and eliminate or mitigate them. Low-risk businesses can take a proportionate response but they will be expected to encourage all staff to participate actively in health and safety to achieve those goals.Tax Avoidance—Multinational Enterprises9.GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour—Wellington Central) to the Minister of Revenue: Has he sought advice from the Treasury on the impact of multinational company tax avoidance on the Government’s fiscal position; if so what was the advice he received?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (Minister of Revenue): As I explained to the House during question time last week the Inland Revenue Department (IRD) does not distinguish on the basis of whether companies are multinational or not. Treasury and the IRD do provide estimates of revenue gains from specific policy initiatives—for example GST on online services and intangibles. Tax avoidance where companies are not paying what they legally owe is cracked down on. I expect all companies to pay the correct amount of tax on their net taxable income regardless of where they are owned.Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The question asked the Minister whether he had sought advice. He offered some views about what Treasury and the IRD might or might not do but he did not answer that part of the question.Mr SPEAKER: On this occasion I do not believe that answer has adequately addressed the question. It was an attempt to answer it and the Minister is responsible for his answer. The way forward is to allow the member two extra supplementary questions.Grant Robertson: Thank you Mr Speaker. Has he sought advice from Treasury on the quantum of multinational company tax avoidance and its impact on the fiscal position of the Government?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The question cannot be answered in the way the member asks. [Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! The question has been asked. It does not require a commentary now as the answer is being given.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: It would require the IRD to make an assessment of a fact that it does not know. It is a quantum question to something that is not known. What I expect is that it works diligently to ensure that all organisations and individuals pay their fair share of tax and I am satisfied it is doing that.Grant Robertson: I will do it slowly: has he sought advice from Treasury on the quantum of multinational tax avoidance and its impact on the Government’s fiscal position?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Slowly—no because asking such a question would be a ridiculous waste of the IRD’s time because you would be asking it to chase its tail.Grant Robertson: How is it responsible for the Government to have not asked its chief financial advisers to quantify the impact of multinational tax avoidance on its overall fiscal position when estimates range into the multibillion-dollar area?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: Estimates are just that. They are fingers in the air based on people’s value judgments about what organisations that have certain turnovers in this country should be paying on tax and I cannot remind that party often enough—they do not seem to get it. New Zealand entities do not pay tax on their gross revenue. They pay it on their net taxable income and I am satisfied that that is what they are doing.Grant Robertson: How does he defend his failure to even quantify the scale of multinational tax avoidance to a small-business owner who is working hard doing the right thing and paying their fair share of taxes—or would he rather join the Prime Minister on the side of mega rich tax dodgers?Mr SPEAKER: The last part of the question is out of order. The first part can certainly be answered.Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: I encourage the member to take a slightly broader perspective on this issue. There is a number of large companies that use their New Zealand - based entities as a means of getting product into New Zealand. Along the retail pipeline for example products like—I do not know—fuel would be then retailed by companies in New Zealand that pay the tax. The analogy would then be for say Silver Fern Farms selling lamb to London to have to pay UK tax. It is not; Waitrose is Asda is.Grant Robertson: What credibility can New Zealand have in being part of international discussions about cracking down on multilateral tax avoidance when it emerges that we are in the club of 21 tax havens revealed as part of the Panama Papers and his Government refuses to acknowledge that that is even a problem?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: It is not for me to re-answer the very good answers that were given by the Prime Minister to his questions. Suffice it to say I agree that New Zealand is not a tax haven when the definition of such is absolute secrecy. Quite the opposite is the case. But I would also remind the member that to the degree that there is multinational tax avoidance taking place this is a global problem that requires a global solution which is why we are working with the OECD.Grant Robertson: Can he not see that New Zealand’s ability to argue for our fair share from multinationals is fatally compromised by his Government siding with the mega rich tax dodgers who are exploiting our trust laws or is that actually an intentional policy so that lawyers and accountants can get some money and our reputation gets trashed?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The question simply does not warrant a response but I will say this: the member needs to be careful what he wishes for. Silver Fern Farms selling lambs into England and Fonterra selling formula into China would on the regime that that member suggests be liable for tax in those countries. Our responsibility is to ensure everybody pays their fair share of tax in New Zealand. This Government deployed $20 million to ensure that that was happening and I am satisfied that that is money well spent.Grant Robertson: Why did he not respond to the IRD’s statement to his predecessor in 2013: “To protect our international reputation it may be necessary to strengthen our regulatory framework for disclosure and recordkeeping.”? Why did the Government not respond to that warning?Hon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE: The question is now delving back into the area of foreign trusts not base erosion and profit shifting by multinationals but I am satisfied that the IRD is nimble in making the changes to things like the thin capitalisation rules the permanent establishment rules the non-resident withholding tax rules and rules for GST on online purchases that ensure the maintenance of this country’s revenue base.Local Government—Better Local Services Reforms10.MARK MITCHELL (National—Rodney) to the Minister of Local Government: What recent reforms has he announced to improve local government services for ratepayers?Hon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA (Minister of Local Government): I have recently announced reforms to the local government sector that will enable councils to more easily develop shared services. The Better Local Services reform package will also give the Local Government Commission enhanced powers to work with councils to create shared council-controlled organisations or CCOs. They will provide scale and expertise across the local government sector and drive better outcomes for ratepayers.Mark Mitchell: How will the local government reforms improve services to ratepayers?Hon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA: We have got 78 councils across New Zealand responsible for 66 water authorities plus roads parks recreational facilities local planning and building consent processes. The cost of delivering these services is rising much faster than incomes and ratepayers’ ability to fund them. In some regions populations are declining while in other areas population growth and tourism are placing increased demands on local services and infrastructure. Combining to form shared council-controlled organisations for water roads and consenting processes will lift the performance of these services across regions by increasing access to technical expertise and greater use of technology and reducing duplications. Efficiency gains will result in much better value for money and better quality services for ratepayers.Mark Mitchell: What changes are proposed for the Local Government Commission?Hon Peseta SAM LOTU-IIGA: The current legislation restricts the Local Government Commission to responding to proposals put before it and councils are not able to lead reorganisation processes. Under the Better Local Services reforms the Local Government Commission will be able to initiate its own investigations into possible reorganisations. The commission will work proactively with councils to support shared services reorganisations. It is also required to consult affected iwi and local communities. Polls are still intended for any commission-led proposal for amalgamation and for any proposed major transfer of water transport or Resource Management Act assets or functions. There will be increased ministerial oversight of the commission’s operations and these changes will give the commission together with councils and communities better tools to improve services for ratepayers.Freshwater Management—Water Quality of Rivers11.Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) to the Minister for the Environment: Does he accept that people wanting a swimmable standard for rivers are seeking to stop pollution by farms factories and towns making otherwise swimmable rivers so dirty that they are unsafe to swim in at normal rather than flood flows?Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): I have heard the views of hundreds of people at the 10 public meetings to date on the Government’s proposals to strengthen the national freshwater requirements on councils but it is impossible to define them as a single point of view. Some have expressed a view that we should legislate for all water bodies to be swimmable all of the time even though this is not practical. Most people including myself want tougher pollution rules that will ensure that our rivers are swimmable as often as possible. I am open-minded about the swimmability provisions and about making it more explicit to regional councils that New Zealanders expect to be able to swim in their local river as long as these provisions are practical and enforceable.Hon David Parker: Why do he and the Prime Minister keep putting up false excuses against swimmability like poor water quality when rivers are in flood?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: I would note that when Prime Minister John Key was elected to office New Zealand had no national rules around water quality—absolutely none at all. So I do take it as a little bit rich for a member of the former Government to be complaining about the rules that this Government has put in place because they are the toughest rules around improving freshwater quality in New Zealandand improving swimmability of our waterways that have ever been put in place by a Government.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was an interesting answer but it did not address my question which was short and straight.Mr SPEAKER: No the member in his question used the words “putting up false excuses”—[Interruption] Order! The Minister took the opportunity to rebut that quite strongly.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. He did not. He did not provide any explanation as to why they are saying that flooded rivers are why they—Mr SPEAKER: Order! He addressed the issue of whether the Prime Minister and he were putting up false excuses.Hon David Parker: Does he accept that he made the Prime Minister look foolish on Radio New Zealand National yesterday by adopting the “flooded river” excuse for polluted rivers when New Zealanders do not go swimming in silt-laden rivers in flood that could sweep them away to their deaths?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: The only politician I have seen looking foolish is the Leader of the Opposition which occurs so frequently that it is almost a daily event—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I accept that the question had a political tone but if the Minister could address the question.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: There are others who are demanding that it be a legal requirement that every river and every stream be swimmable 100 percent of the time. And as a practical engineer I point out that passing such a law would mean that most water bodies would always breach that standard during high-flow events and that is why both the Prime Minister and I are saying that we want tougher rules and we want better water quality but that we want rules that are also practical for councils to enforce.Hon David Parker: Does he believe that New Zealanders should normally be able to swim in their local river?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: Yes I do. And that is why this Government has invested over $300 million in clean-ups. That is why this Government has put the first national regulations in place in respect of water metering.Dr Megan Woods: They’re getting dirtier. They’re getting worse.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: And for those members who say that it is getting worse I point this out: the very first time that a dairy farm expansion or new consent has been turned down has been under our Government as a consequence of national policy statements. If they travel to Southland if they travel to Hawke’s Bay if they travel to those areas that are water quality then any honest water-quality scientist will say firstly that these problems go back a good 20 or 30 years and secondly that this Government is making more progress than any in our history.Hon David Parker: Given his quite proper acknowledgment last week that the main cause of declining water quality is pollution from livestock effluent and fertiliser why can he not also admit that it is his failure to stop increased farm pollution of our rivers that is causing the problem and why he is so out of touch with New Zealanders who just want their rivers to be swimmable?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: This Parliament this afternoon is about to debate the Environment Canterbury legislation. In that legislation the commissioners have actually put red zones in a third of Canterbury which have actually limited agricultural expansion. Actually the regional council was in place for 20 years and never put any limits in place on the expansion of agriculture. In areas like Southland in areas like Hawke’s Bay in areas like the Waikato it is only during the term of this Government that those diffuse pollution issues that are so challenging are actually being addressed.People with Disabilities Employment—Project 30012.MATT DOOCEY (National—Waimakariri) to the Minister for Disability Issues: How is the Canterbury employment pilot scheme Project 300 helping disabled people and people with health conditions into work?Hon NICKY WAGNER (Minister for Disability Issues): In April last year taking advantage of the Christchurch rebuild and the region’s low unemployment rate I launched Project 300 which was a Christchurch-based employment pilot scheme for people with disabilities or health conditions to get them into sustainable employment in 12 months. To date over 159 employers have committed to providing vacancies and better than that as at the end of last month 255 clients have full-time work 67 clients have part-time work and 10 clients have commenced full-time study and more employers and clients are showing an interest every day.Matt Doocey: What reports has she received about the positive impacts of getting into work?Hon NICKY WAGNER: I have heard lots of inspirational stories about how getting into work has changed people’s lives. One participant who had suffered a brain injury has started work reassembling crates. He is enjoying his job and it has helped him remain drug-free. Another participant has been on and off the benefit for 25 years and through Project 300 has gained work experience and following a glowing reference from that work experience has a full-time job. And thirdly a participant who has been on and off the benefit for the past 13 years and has several criminal convictions has been linked up with a range of supports that have boosted her confidence and now she has started part-time work with the option of more hours as they become available.Urgent Debates DeclinedTax System—Overseas TrustsMr SPEAKER: I have received letters from the Rt Hon Winston Peters and Andrew Little seeking to debate under Standing Order 389 the release of documents that are alleged to show that New Zealand is used as a tax haven. The members have authenticated their applications with news media reports suggesting New Zealand is a tax haven. However the making of allegations can never constitute a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility and I refer members to Speakers’ rulings 212/3 and 212/4.The Government is accountable for concerns raised about the alleged use of New Zealand as a tax haven but this is an ongoing matter. To date it has not announced any particular action it intends to take about the matter or made any policy announcement. To warrant an urgent debate being held there must be a new situation or decision of importance in itself. The absence of action on the part of the Government is not a particular case of recent occurrence under which an urgent debate can be sought and I refer to Speakers’ ruling 212/2. The application is therefore declined.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I did not apply on the basis of allegations; I applied on the basis of international evidence which has not been refuted as to the personalities involved. No one in the Government starting with the Prime Minister and the Minister of Revenue has got up and said that those people are not transacting business in this country. They are not allegations; they are proven facts and I want to have a debate on what that means for a country with our reputation.Mr SPEAKER: I have given a ruling that three things must be met. Firstly it must meet the case of recent occurrence; I am saying quite clearly that it does not. Then I had to consider ministerial responsibility. Finally the third one is whether it requires the attention of the House. I have made a ruling; there is no debate.Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) BillIn CommitteePart 1 Preliminary provisionsDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): I am happy to take a call on Part 1 of this bill to spell out why it is that Labour will not cannot and will never support this legislation. Part 1 of the bill which contains the preliminary provisions of this bill—that is clauses 3 through 7—actually contains some pretty important elements of this legislation.First and foremost is the purpose clause of this legislation where I would like to turn my attention. This is of course the part of the bill that tells us what it is going to do. Clause 3 says that “The purpose of this Act is to provide governance arrangements for the Canterbury Regional Council that will—(a) operate during the 2016 to 2019 local authority election-cycle period;”. But it is subclause (2) that I would like to turn my attention first of all where it says: “To this end this Act—(a) replaces the Environment Canterbury (Temporary Commissioners and Improved Water Management) Act 2010; and (b) provides for a new governing body for the Canterbury Regional Council comprising a mix of elected and appointed members;”. This is of course what the Minister for the Environment euphemistically refers to as a mixed model of democracy. This of course is a Minister who thinks democracy is a little bit too risky and is something that we as elected members should exercise caution on before allowing it back into any part of our country.The first question that I would like Nick Smith the Minister in the chair to address is an issue that was raised by officials in the regulatory impact statement. It is around the consultation document that lies behind the piece of legislation that preceded it. Why was it that it went out and really gave only a fait accompli of this one model with there being a range of options that were not canvassed in terms of what the future of Canterbury would hold?This is something that submitters on the bill raised. In particular the Christchurch City Council in both its submission on the discussion document that preceded this legislation and its written and oral submissions on the legislation before the Local Government and Environment Committee raised particular questions about why it was that this is the path the Minister chose to go down and said that it was only one option. Treasury of course found the need to raise questions about this in the regulatory impact statement and said that it could not give the kind of advice it would otherwise if that had been practised differently.So I am looking forward to hearing the Minister give us an explanation of why it was that only this single option was put forward in the discussion document because it was not like the Minister did not know this was coming. It had been nearly 3 years since he had last cancelled elections in Canterbury and he had had plenty of time to plan for the next phase and what came next. So that is in the purpose statement and I would like to hear from the Minister.I would also like to then turn my attention to clause 6 in Part 1 of this legislation which is the clause that deals with the repeal of this legislation. It is actually only a few days after the sixth anniversary of when the Minister first sacked our elected representative regional council in Canterbury and replaced it with Crown appointees. When that council was first sacked in 2010 there were a lot of statements made in the media and the Prime Minister was even moved to make some statements to say that it might be as late as 2013 before Canterbury could have representative democracy back in its region. But did that happen? No it did not. What happened before the expiration of the 2010 legislation is of course the Minister just put in place another piece of legislation that extended the Crown appointees over elected representatives in the region of Christchurch.So we have absolutely no faith that the repeal date of this legislation will in fact in essence be what is stated in clause 6 of the bill. When the bill states that it is repealed on the close of the resumption day we know that behind the scenes there have been moves by various Government agencies to make the situation that the Minister is putting into place permanent. We know through Official Information Act requests that the Ministry for Primary Industries was lobbying asking that the situation where the Crown appoints half the regional councillors in the case of Canterbury be made permanent. I would like to hear from the Minister in the Committee stage of this legislation an absolute assurance to the people of Canterbury—should National still be in Government but that will not be the case because we will be able to take care of that but more on that later—that in the Minister’s mind this is the last piece of Draconian legislation that takes away democratic rights from the people of Canterbury.As we get more into the substantive parts of this legislation in Part 2 we will talk more fully about what some of the problems are. But I want to know from the Minister that this is what he means this time. When you read through the documents prior to the discussion documents being issued I have no faith. I have no faith that in the Minister’s mind this is the end of the road. We have no cause to have faith in Canterbury because we have had our votes stolen twice—not only in 2010 but by the subsequent legislation that came into play for the 2013 election.At the time when votes were first taken away there were jokes going around. Will Canterbury or Fiji be the first to have democratic elections? Well the Minister can be proud to say he is presiding over a region that is standing firm and not returning to democracy. What is being proposed and defined in Part 1 in clause 4 “Interpretation” in no way represents a return to democracy. The Minister seems to think he can be a little bit democratic in the way that you might like to be a little bit pregnant. But a return to democracy means giving Cantabrians the right to elect their regional councillors. This legislation does not do that. It does not return Canterbury to what the rest of the country enjoys and that is a democratically elected regional council.The Minister needs to justify this and I look forward to the Minister taking a call to justify this because he has failed to do so to this date. There is simply no justification for this. The kinds of arguments that we have heard put up—that democracy is a little bit risky. The people who elected this Minister might like to be a little bit afraid that their elected representatives considered the system of representation under which he is elected is risky.I am sure we will get into those debates more fully in a more substantive part of this bill—the idea that this has to be done for the good of Canterbury. We will have a discussion about water quality in Canterbury and we will see that in the 6 years since the commissioners have been in place we have seen a decline in water quality in our region. I look forward to hearing from the Minister what the justifications are why he never went to the people of Canterbury with a broader set of proposals and an assurance that in his mind this is the end of the road. Thank you.EUGENIE SAGE (Green): Tēnā koe Mr Chair. This bill the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill is an abominable bill and the Green Party will continue to strongly oppose it. One of the first things that a Green Party in Government next year would do is repeal the bill and restore a fully elected regional council to Canterbury.When the Minister in the chair the Hon Nick Smith stands up to speak on the bill I am sure we will hear a lot of cant and misinformation about the state of Environment Canterbury prior to his axing the regional councillors. He did it again in question time today. He talked about there being no red zones. Well Minister there were red zones and the elected regional council was in the process of reviewing the resource consents—the allocation of water takes from groundwater in those zones. Minister there was already a Canterbury Water Management Strategy because it had been developed by elected councillors and the strategy finalised before you axed them. There was already a natural resources regional plan which although not operative was in a proposed state and was picked up by the appointed commissioners a couple of months after they were appointed.I would like to explore in Part 1 the relationship between the Local Government Act and the bill because clause 7 talks about the relationship between the Local Electoral Act and the Resource Management Act and this bill. The purpose of the Local Government Act is to provide for democratic and effective local government. Democratic local government is an important check on the power of the executive. It is a legitimate expectation in our society that we should be able to elect people at the local and regional levels to represent us to make decisions about the rates that we pay and how those rates are spent. There is $80 million - odd of rates in Environment Canterbury. But the second-class model that this bill provides with seven elected councillors and six appointed members means that nearly half of the people around the table will not be accountable to Cantabrians for the decisions they are making about the spending of taxes in the form of rates. That is not democratic.The purpose in this bill is not about improving democracy; it is mechanistic. It continues to deprive Cantabrians of a fully elected council. As one submitter John Summers said it substitutes and provides a cheap fairground consolation prize with this notion of being able to elect only seven councillors. As Mr Summers said history shows that power is addictive not readily relinquished. The only bill we should be talking about today should be complete democracy not this watered-down version that the Government is bringing to us because by removing that fully elected council we are removing a check on the power of central government.Many submitters commented on this. The Law Society noted that it removed that underlying relationship between the citizen and the State at the local level by removing that accountability to ratepayers. Associate Professor Bronwyn Hayward the head of the department of political science and international relations at the University of Canterbury commented in her submission that this bill was implementing a form of governance that Canterbury University teaches students about in regard to developing economies where governance is at risk of corruption gerrymandering and undue influence on the democratic process.This National Government should be ashamed that it is putting in place a regime in Canterbury that applies absolutely nowhere else in New Zealand. Even in Kaipara where you had a $50 million to $60 million blowout in spending by the Kaipara District Council and commissioners being appointed—this year citizens in Kaipara will get the chance to elect their local council. Why do we have this mixed model the second-class democracy that the Government is imposing on the region? Well it is because of water—the fact that 60 percent of the water allocated for irrigation in New Zealand is used in Canterbury. This very partisan bill is enabling the Government to keep its fingers in the till and ensure that water management plans in Canterbury are amenable to irrigators because of course it was Irrigation New Zealand that went crying to Government in 2010 when an elected council sought to improve the flow.Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): I am not at all surprised by the very defensive contribution from Eugenie Sage because she was one of the regional councillors who sat on the governance body of the most dysfunctional unit of local government in New Zealand. She went on to say that it was the farmers or the irrigators who asked the Government to intervene in Environment Canterbury. Actually it was the 10 mayors of Canterbury who unanimously came to the Government: the Mayor of Christchurch the Mayor of “Waimak” the Mayor of Selwyn the mayor—the ten mayors of Canterbury. Mayors do not often agree and they unanimously expressed no confidence in the body of which Eugenie Sage was a member.The second point I would want to make is that anybody who is engaged in the water issue in New Zealand knows that nowhere is it as important and pertinent as it is in Canterbury. It is where 70 percent of the irrigation in New Zealand takes place. It is where we have got our biggest challenges around water quality. It is also where over 50 percent of our hydroelectricity is stored in New Zealand. Despite all those factors in 20 years of the regional council we still had no operative rules around fresh water.That was a disaster for New Zealand and it was absolutely right of this Government to say that our fresh water in Canterbury deserves better and that we need to get some high-skilled people to get on top of these challenges. I salute the work of Dame Margaret Bazley; of people the likes of David Caygill who does not share my politics but does have a great deal of public service ability and dedication; of people like Tom Lambie and those other commissioners. When I reflect on the sort of extravagant language about those commissioners from people like Eugenie Sage and what I have just heard from Megan Woods I say that they are out of touch with the people who have actually done more to improve the management of water in Canterbury than anybody in a century.I want to challenge Megan Woods on a very basic point. She used language saying that it was Draconian that the votes of Canterbury were stolen by this National John Key - led Government. Did Helen Clark steal the votes of all Aucklanders when she sacked the Auckland District Health Board? Did the member David Cunliffe whom I think Megan Woods was a strong supporter of being a leader—did he steal democracy when he sacked the Auckland District Health Board? Did her good friend Sandra Lee previously from the Alliance steal democracy from the people of Kaipara when she sacked that council? Was there a stealing of democracy when the Rodney District Council was properly dismissed? The report was overwhelming: Environment Canterbury had the worst record in processing consents in statistics that were recorded and intervention was required.Megan Woods has asked for a reassurance—that is whether there will be local body elections in 2019 the same as for every other regional council in New Zealand. I give that assurance absolutely but I also say that if we really are concerned about the water issues in Canterbury then we need to ensure that there is a smooth transition. That is why actually the majority of councils in Canterbury have supported the transitional approach that is taken in this bill.I also want to reflect on an editorial in the Christchurch Press. I go back and read it from when I announced the decision to sack the councillors and to appoint commissioners. The editorial said this: “Voters will get to judge the merits of the Government’s moves at the election in 2011.” When we extended the arrangement the editorial in the Christchurch Press said: “Voters will get to have their say on whether they support National in these interventions at the 2014 election.” Well what is surprising and where I think we feel how out of touch Megan Woods and Eugenie Sage are from public opinion is that actually National got the best results ever in the history of Canterbury holding seats like Nicky Wagner’s in Christchurch Central because the voters knew that we had acted absolutely in the public interest and in the interests of fresh water with the intervention that we made at that time.This bill is about taking a responsible approach to Government. It is ensuring that we maintain the momentum and a sensible transition around those crucial freshwater issues that are being developed in a collaborative way across Canterbury. For those who really do beat their chests in this Chamber concerned about this country lifting its game about fresh water they will back the commissioners and they will back the Government in its intervention because every independent observer has noted that there has been more done over the last 6 years in respect of improving the management of fresh water than what there had been in the previous 60 years.The fact of those red zones the fact of those plans that have been put in place—well Eugenie Sage strokes her head. Tell me how many dairy farm expansions had been declined in the period when she was an Environment Canterbury commissioner? Do you know what the answer is? Absolutely zero—absolutely zero. In fact if she looks at the record of the growth in the amount of dairy industry in Canterbury it actually grew at its fastest and most uncontrolled rate when she sat on the governance body of that board.Actually the limits that have been put in place around nutrients is causing real tension real pressure in Canterbury but at last the issues of fresh water in Canterbury are being properly constrained. Those diffuse pollution issues are having limits put on them which is absolutely proper. That is why I urge this Committee to look at the progress that has been made back those commissioners and ensure there is a smooth transition. Again I would say that what the Government is doing is actually backed by the majority of the councils in Canterbury. That is why we should see this smooth transition through and ensure that the job we started in 2010 is properly completed for the good of the people of Canterbury.EUGENIE SAGE (Green): That contribution from Minister Smith was very interesting because if you do look at what the record of the commissioners has been it has not been about improving water quality. We have seen in Canterbury despite what the Minister says a decrease in water quality. We have seen in Canterbury some of—Te Waihora Lake Ellesmere. The Waihora-Selwyn catchment drains into Lake Ellesmere. Te Waihora is New Zealand’s fifth-largest lake and it is an important taonga to Ngāi Tahu and yet we had the chair of the commissioners writing to the Selwyn District Council encouraging the council to agree to an $8 million loan from ratepayers to subsidise the second stage of the Central Plains irrigation scheme.The Minister can talk about the hundreds of millions that are being spent on cleaning up our lakes and rivers but it does not make any sense to put more money into subsidising irrigation to intensify land use in a catchment where that drains to Te Waihora and that will increase nutrient pollution in the lake. At the moment we have got a major increase in nitrogen and phosphorous loadings in the lake. We need a 50 percent reduction in the current levels of nutrient pollution to get to a trophic lake index of six or less which would help the lake to restore itself. We are not getting that where we get the chair of the commissioners not only in regulation but involved in promoting irrigation through encouraging the Selwyn District Council to fund the second stage of the Central Plains Water scheme.What we have also seen in Canterbury is the decline in the number of swimmable rivers. We had the commissioners promising that 80 percent of rivers would be suitable for swimming by 2015. In 2010 74 percent of monitored river sites were safe for swimming; yet in 2016 only 67 percent are. The commissioners have not improved water quality—sure in a few small areas but across the region no because of the huge scale of intensification.Yes the Minister is right: intensification was increasing under the elected councillors’ regime but there had been a failure by successive Governments to actually implement national direction through a national policy statement and national standards. Yes we now have that national direction under this Government but it provides an aspiration of wadeable rivers not swimmable rivers. So we continue to see water quality declining in the region.We had a lot of submitters talking about that—about high-country lakes that were previously rated clean and blue by the regional council in its monitoring and now most of them are rated just of moderate quality. You have had dairying expanding in the catchments of high-country lakes rather than being prohibited by Environment Canterbury. As one submitter Penelope Snowdon-Lait said: “Despite the small gains in pulling back pollution here and there overall we are on a treadmill without hope under the current model.” This bill is not about improved water management as the principal Act claimed to be when we have seen a continued decline and deterioration in water quality.The Minister said that all of the councils supported the commissioners replacing the elected councillors. This time on this bill the Christchurch City Council highlighted that there should not be a continuation of this half-pie model. Yes the Minister is holding up his hands. Christchurch—in case the Minister did not realise and I am sure he does—is the second-largest city in New Zealand. This bill halves the representation for elected councillors for Christchurch and it substantially reduces our overall representation by increasing the number of citizens who are represented by each councillor.In 2007 when we had elected councillors in Christchurch there were between 37000 and 39000 citizens for every councillor. Under this bill we will now have 90475 citizens represented by one councillor. The number of councillors representing the city of Christchurch is halved from eight to four and they are having to represent almost double the number of citizens. That is not democracy in action and that is why the Christchurch City Council made a very strong submission calling for a return of an elected council. We have not heard a justification from the Government either in the discussion document it put out—DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First): Just following on from what Eugenie Sage was saying I wanted to say first of all about Part 1 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill that the purpose is stated as being to establish a transitional elected and appointed mixed Environment Canterbury but actually it does not say anywhere why. Nor has the Minister for the Environment or any other person from the National Party yet explained comprehensively why there needs to be a mixed elected or appointed body. The bill itself certainly does not say that even in the purpose clause. Furthermore clause 3(1)(c) refers to “a majority of members of the Council to be elected” but that majority is usually only one—so it is the least-possible paper-thin majority that is possible and as we will see when we come to discuss Part 2 there will not necessarily always be a majority of elected people either. But that is something for us to discuss later. So really this is not just a hybrid; it is a hybrid that may actually not be in any way at all democratic. In fact you cannot really describe a body that is partly elected and partly appointed as democratic anyway.The point is that the crux of the whole bill is just this: there actually is not any need after 6 years for any appointed members of Environment Canterbury at all. As I have said there is no justification in the bill and nor has the Minister described why that should be necessary in any way that I have heard to be comprehensible and meaningful. When you look at the objectives of the 2010 appointments—fundamentally to make sure that the Canterbury Water Management Strategy was developed adopted and given effect to—then you could say that today as we speak that has actually already been achieved. So again it has been achieved. I mean I live in Canterbury and I am the chairman of the Central Plains Water Trust. I actually take notice of these things and what is there is already so well entrenched that it would simply not be possible at all for that to be done away with either in practice or by any process.There is no reason any longer for the continuation of any commissioners. I would like to hear the Minister comment on that. A return to democracy is in fact essential after 6 years because Environment Canterbury has already lost its credibility as a representative body for the people of Canterbury—it has already lost that. The years have been too long and too difficult for it to be seen in that way anymore. So it is a very serious thing when that happens and it should not go on for another 3 years—to make 9 years in total. It is wrong also to treat Canterbury differently from any other region for such a very long period of time.I will say this. I agree over one thing with the Minister: in 2010 it was necessary I believe for Environment Canterbury to have been replaced by appointees. But in fact 9 years will be far far too long for that to continue without any really robust reason for that. As I have already said without a fully elected body you cannot regard the new Environment Canterbury—the transitional one—as being in any way democratic at all because it is simply not possible for it to operate in that way with so many appointed members.New Zealand First is committed to an effective local democracy which means elected people. It is one thing to dismiss elected councillors way back in 2010 but it is another thing altogether for it to go on for 9 years—that is a tremendously long period of time. In fact the time should have been the shortest possible time because in the Cabinet paper prepared at the time of the Creech report it actually said this: “the explicit intent is for the Commissioners to withdraw and to be replaced by elected representatives as soon as their task is achieved and the present systemic issues are resolved.” As I have already said that in fact has already been achieved. The Government has not explained why the appointment of commissioners should continue to be necessary after 6 years and it needs to do that if it is to have any credibility with this bill at all. So I would ask the Minister to actually stand up right now and give us a full explanation of why that is necessary.Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour): Denis O’Rourke in his closing comments made a very interesting and valid point. He called on the Minister in the chair Nick Smith to justify why after sacking Environment Canterbury in 2010 then breaking his word along with the Prime Minister in 2013 when he said he would reinstate full democratic elections he is extending out further transitional provisions and enabling the Government to appoint a large component of councillors—up to six I believe with seven or so elected councillors—mainly from of course as the Minister knows rural areas. One could make a rather interesting series of conversations about gerrymandering and other things. I could perceive where a number of those elected Environment Canterbury folk will stack up as opposed to those who are appointed. But Mr O’Rourke made the point—and it is a fair question which I put to the Minister as well: why the extension?In 2010 the Minister in the chair sacked Environment Canterbury. In 2013 he said: “No we will reinstate them.” Then he extended it again. He broke his word—absolutely broke his word. It has been reported on time and time and time again within this House. Then we move right through to 2019 and the Minister expects us to stand up and take him at his word again—take another sort of Nick Smith Lotto ticket—that he will not come back and pull the wool over Cantabrians.The other interesting thing about this bill is that last week the Minister might recall his colleague Gerry Brownlee with a lot of consultation and a lot of cooperative effort to give him credit decided to take on board the concerns of Cantabrians and submitters in respect of the Greater Christchurch Regeneration Bill in order that Cantabrians take the power back to a large extent—with Crown input which is appropriate—and take control if you will in partnership with the Government in respect of regenerating Christchurch. I think that was a pretty good process. The Minister listened and he accepted that we have got smart people in Christchurch and Canterbury who are chomping at the bit to shoulder more responsibility in these big issues—and they are huge issues—in respect of the earthquake in Canterbury. The political forces across the aisle acknowledged submitters and political parties listened to them and it was agreed that Cantabrians were smart were responsible and could be masters of their own destiny.Yet fast forward to a week later and we come to this bill and now of course we get a whole historic litany of justification: firstly for why it was that the Minister sacked Environment Canterbury then secondly why it was that he broke his word in 2013 but there is no explanation as to why this bill does what it does because what this bill does is continue to perpetuate the fact that Nick Smith broke his word—9 years it will be. It just perpetuates that issue. There has not been one explanation from the Minister as to why Cantabrians cannot rule their own roost and why they require to be babysat by commissioners who are unaccountable commissioners—and I will not get into quality or lack of quality. I think there are many things the commissioners have done that are pretty good but the point remains that they are answerable to that Minister and they are answerable to this Government.In the old days you could go to an Environment Canterbury councillor like an elected MP and say “Look I’ve got a problem” and you could hold their feet to the fire. The truth is that those commissioners are not responsible to the people of Canterbury nor accountable to the people of Canterbury. They are responsible to that man sitting in that chair and his Government like those whom he will appoint to babysit the component of elected—mainly rural but elected—Environment Canterbury councillors who will be elected in respect of this piece of legislation. So we have got Gerry Brownlee who says “Listen to the people Cantabrians are smart. We are going to give them what they asked for. They are smart enough they have the spirit to actually start shouldering a major chunk of the responsibility or greater chunks of responsibility in Canterbury” and then we have this guy who says “Oh no no. They’re not smart enough; they cannot be trusted.” By the way not only can we not trust those elected but also of course by default the Minister is saying he does not trust the people of Canterbury to elect from their number smart professional people who will actually do the job. Nick Smith does not trust the people of Canterbury. That is effectively what he is saying because—[Bell rung] Mr Chair—The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): The Hon Clayton Cosgrove.Hon Dr Nick Smith: Mr Chair—The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): Sorry; I have called the Hon Clayton Cosgrove.Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE: A day late a dollar short—nothing changes. I say to that Minister that he should actually give an explanation as to why he does not trust the people of Canterbury because as I have just said before he tried to jump in with one of his usual efforts by not allowing full elections—full elections where all Cantabrians can elect leaders from among their number—he is effectively saying that he does not trust those constituents to elect smart people. That is essentially what he is saying.It would be really good to get an explanation—not the histrionics we have heard in the speeches about what went on in 2010 and the justifications for breaking his word in 2013. No no. The Minister purports that this is a forward-looking piece of legislation. Well I invite him to look in his crystal ball and forward-look and give us an explanation as to why he does not trust the constituents whom Mr Doocey and other members—Ms Woods and others—represent in Canterbury. I invite him to tell us why he does not trust them and why he thinks that the people they will elect the small component they will elect will not be smart enough will not be up to it and will not be trustworthy. There is a question for the Minister. There is a forward-looking question and I look forward to the answer—not histrionics.There is such a contrast between this piece of legislation and the Greater Christchurch Regeneration Bill so maybe he should elbow his colleague Gerry Brownlee who does reside in Christchurch and who does understand the people of Canterbury and he demonstrated that last week. Maybe he should give him one in the ribs and say: “Gerry why is it that you trust the people you represent but I sit in Nelson and I don’t trust these Cantabrians? I know it is not a rugby thing but why don’t I trust them? Why don’t I trust them? Why do I know better?”. This Minister is great at telling us why he knows better than anybody else why he knows better than his mate Gerry Brownlee—who does trust his fellow citizens—and why he knows better than the people of Canterbury. He has demonstrated that he has broken his word. He has demonstrated that he cannot justify this continuing. I ask him now to demonstrate why he does not trust Cantabrians.Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): I can totally relate as to why the people of Waimakariri twice rejected Clayton Cosgrove as their member of Parliament with the sort of nastiness that we got from that contribution. Megan Woods asked earlier whether I could give an assurance that there would be local elections in 2019. I responded in good faith to Megan Woods’ response and then the next Labour member comes along and says: “Well I don’t want to get an assurance anyway because I wouldn’t believe it if I got it.” One it shows you the level of disunity within the Labour Party but secondly it shows the lack of good faith.The question that Mr Cosgrove asked and which was also asked by Mr O’Rourke was in terms of why we need this transition. There is a very simple reason. There are eight water zones in Canterbury. Two of them now have a fully operative set of plans around water. Six of them are halfway through the process. We have commissioners like Peter Skelton a former Environment Court judge who ensure there is a great deal of legal scrutiny and appropriateness for us to have a single-track process without appeals to the Environment Court to get water plans in place in all six of those zones. The reason Government members want to see quite simply a continuity of those commissioners and see this work done is that every water zone in Canterbury needs an operative plan. They are two out of eight through that process we need to see it through and any member of this Committee who is genuinely concerned about getting robust rules in place for water will want to see that piece of work completed as is provided for in this bill.KRIS FAAFOI (Labour—Mana): It is a pleasure to take a call on Part 1 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill. Clause 3(2)(b) I think it is sets up the mixed-model arrangement for the Canterbury Regional Council where there will be seven elected members—up to six members appointed by the Government—but still not a complete return to the democracy that we had in 2010. That—Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. It is perfectly proper for the member to want to have a debate about those governance clauses but they are not covered in Part 1. The clause that he has quoted is the incorrect number and the contribution he wishes to make should be made during the correct part of the debate.KRIS FAAFOI: Speaking to the point of order Mr Chairperson can I point you to clause 3(2)(b) of the purpose clause which states that the legislation “provides for a new governing body for the Canterbury Regional Council comprising a mix of elected and appointed members;”?The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): I take the member’s point and it is one of a number of points covered in this first part. However I also take the point the Minister has made which is that they are far more focused on in future parts. So I am not suggesting that the member has contravened the rules just yet but I just bring them to his attention.KRIS FAAFOI: Thank you for your clarification and for the comments of the Minister in the chair the Hon Nick Smith. Well because this Act sets up the new governing body for the Canterbury Regional Council comprising a mix of elected and appointed members which is pointed out in Part 1 I would like to point out to you some of the risk factors that the officials saw in the setting up of this mixed model. These are helpfully on the front page of the regulatory impact statement which is provided for members on the Table if anyone from across the way might want to look at it.The first point that the officials raised around this mixed model which is mentioned in Part 1 was that “Public consultation was confined to a proposal for the preferred option of a mixed-model governance structure rather than the range of options in the RIS.” The question that I would like to pose to the Minister in the chair is why the narrow focus on this mixed model and not a good look at the range of options as contained in the regulatory impact statement that were posed by the officials. If the Minister would like to take the opportunity to talk to that point which was raised by officials around the narrow focus and almost the dumb-minded intent of just looking at one option I would appreciate it—if the Minister could take a call and explain that to us.Helpfully the officials go on because they have concerns around the mixed model that we have here. They go on to say in the regulatory impact statement: “This [model] still limits our ability to present full community views on other options in this Regulatory Impact Statement which were not described in the discussion document.” I would like to point out the point that Clayton Cosgrove I think made that around the Regenerate Christchurch legislation that went through this House last week Gerry Brownlee worked with all parties in this House to get a compromise that everyone was happy with in order to let the people of Christchurch have their voice around the rebuild of that very important city. Yet a different approach has been taken with this piece of legislation and there will not be an effective view around Environment Canterbury. That is another question I want to pose to the Minister: if Minister Brownlee was quite happy to take that approach with the Regenerate Christchurch legislation why in this legislation under this regulatory impact statement has the Minister not taken a similar approach?Again the officials—we are talking about the mixed model which is pointed out in Part 1—go on to another concern: “While based on the District Health Board model the proposed governance model has an element of uncertainty as to its effectiveness as it has not been used previously in a local governance context.” I think that shows that the officials shared some of the concerns—or many of the concerns—that we have on this side of the Chamber as to whether this mixed-model approach will work for Christchurch. When we were debating the Regenerate Christchurch legislation last week there was unanimous feeling around this House that we had to get legislation around Christchurch right. That is why Gerry Brownlee took that approach and that is why I think the Minister needs to explain when there are concerns around the effectiveness of the model that he is proposing for Environment Canterbury why he is taking this approach to take a different approach. Why is he not taking the approach that Minister Brownlee has said will make sure that his legislation is effective for Christchurch but this Minister says it is different?The officials helpfully go on to say: “The appointment of councillors is seen by some as an unwarranted intrusion into Canterbury’s affairs by central government.” In English they are saying that there is going to be no local voice for those people when it comes to this piece of legislation. You would wonder and I would hazard a guess that Mr Smith might get up and say: “Well that is a bunch of lefties—MAUREEN PUGH (National): I move That the question be now put.KRIS FAAFOI (Labour—Mana): Just before I was interrupted by the buzzer I was raising the point that there is a concern for some that there is unwarranted intrusion into Canterbury’s affairs by central government. That was on the front page of the regulatory impact statement. In essence it was that Christchurch would not have a local voice. You might think that the Government might say that that was lefties tree-huggers who do not think they are getting listened to in Christchurch. But funnily enough it was the Law Society that submitted at the select committee that it was the local voice that was being taken away.So I will take this opportunity to quote directly from the submission from the Law Society because I think it very much succinctly encapsulates many of the concerns that we have on this side of the Chamber around the lack of democracy that is contained within this bill. Its submission said—and I think this is also very much its submission that it made on the 2013 amendment Act: “Underlying the reasons and the Amendment Bill is a concerning idea: that effective leadership at a regional level at least is best achieved through a non-democratic and non-representative institution.” The Law Society says: “This is misguided. The failure to involve citizens in regional decision-making that affects them so directly and to draw directly on their knowledge and expertise often has adverse and unexpected consequences. History has long shown the perils of non-democratic leadership a matter that the New Zealand Government has railed against within the Pacific region.”So to have this quasi mixed-model arrangement for Canterbury has been pointed out by many many bodies as well as political parties as not being the best fit for Christchurch. I think in a city where we need to get the rebuild right where we need to get some of these issues around resource allocation right that the people of Christchurch are entitled to have their voice. The people of Christchurch should not be fooled by the fact that the Government says this is a transition back to democracy. It is still holding back full democracy which they fully deserve. They fully deserve it. They do not deserve some mixed model of: “Well you can have seven and we’ll appoint six.” Their votes should have exactly the same effect as votes for the Wellington region where I will get to choose the members who will be on the Greater Wellington Regional Council.A political impasse around resource allocation is not a good enough reason to take away democracy from Canterbury and that is what this is all about. It is not about people not getting on. It is not about taking away democracy. It is not about a rebuild. It is about this Government saying: “Well we can’t get what we want done under the democratic votes that happened in Christchurch under that frame because there is an impasse.” So instead of letting democracy sort that out and waiting for the next election potentially and putting forward its case—even if our side of the equation lost that democratic argument that is democracy. But instead of saying “Let’s let democracy win and put our case.” it says: “Well to hell with democracy. Let’s get rid of the people who were elected on to this board to make sure we get the result that we want.” I think that New Zealanders around this country regardless of whether they are from the Canterbury region or not will be very very concerned that this is the third time—not the first not the second; it is the third time—that we are implementing this legislation to take away their local democratic voice.The Government may have genuine concerns around resource allocation in Christchurch around water rights but changing the democratic functions of Environment Canterbury is not the way to fix this problem. We told them that in 2010 we told them that in 2013 and now it is going to be 2019 before the people of Christchurch get to elect a full board of Environment Canterbury. Nick Smith is to blame for that because he says that democracy should not win and that his Government should win because they want to get a certain outcome. In this House and as has been pointed out by the Law Society we do not want that to happen in the likes of the Pacific but it is fine here in New Zealand. I think the Minister should explain himself as to why he thinks it is not OK in the likes of Fiji and we encourage democracy in Fiji but it is OK in Canterbury. Get up on your feet and answer that question.JAN LOGIE (Green): I am pleased to take a short call on Part 1 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill and to speak to the point around this being a transitional governance arrangement that will be providing a mixed model of democracy for the people of Canterbury.I want to restate the point that the case was never made or accepted by the people of Canterbury for the removal of their council. Although the Minister is acknowledging my point nodding enthusiastically that that is true—in saying that although there were issues over the water management and the Government’s perception was that things were not happening quickly enough the people of Canterbury never got to say whether they shared the Minister’s view that that was a problem because the Government removed their board and did not give them that democratic right to intervene and make a decision on that. Although the Minister has spoken in this Committee and said “Well now we have plans in place that we did not have before.” my understanding is that the bulk of the work that led to the production of those plans was done by the previous board that he sacked.I would also point out that where the Minister has said we cannot get rid of these appointed officials because the status of water in Canterbury is critical to that area—we absolutely share that view in the Green Party.However it is concerning when waterways have actually become more degraded under this model of governance than they were previously and when we have just seen recently in the media that in a very water-resource constrained area 40 billion litres of water are now going to be able to be sold and sent offshore via a resource consent that I understand was approved by this governance board which the people of Canterbury are understandably very upset about.What I am seeing is that no case was made. There was no chance for the people of Canterbury to approve or express their view of the Government’s perception and there was no improvement of water quality. Of the 1169 submissions on this bill only 15 supported it. The people of Canterbury have said very strongly to this Government to the Minister and to this House that they do not want this. The strong thread through the submissions was that people want their democracy back. They want to be able to vote for the full board and they do not support the belief that there is any value in this mixed model. That is a view that is shared by the Green Party.I would again restate a quote from the Law Society when it was submitting on this bill around the cause of it: “Representative democracy is a fundamental principle that gives legitimacy to government and the exercise of state power. … it [is] one of the ‘unalterable fundamentals’ of our legal system (the other being independent courts). The proposed further suspension of full democracy is inconsistent with one of [our] core constitutional values namely a ‘free and democratic society’.” What this bill is doing although you are saying it is a transitional arrangement is it is an ongoing attack on the absolute fundamentals of this society of what most people in New Zealand thought was an accepted precept of how we work together and how this country functions.For the Government to say “We don’t like it because we’re not getting the outcome that we want.”—well you know I could stand up and say: “Well I don’t like the way that the Government is working and the results that you are getting. I’d like to appoint some independent people that I think would do a better job.” I am not elected I have not been given that power but neither were you Minister. You have been elected into a position here not in that community and that community has a democratic right to say how its resources are used.RINO TIRIKATENE (Labour—Te Tai Tonga): It is my pleasure to speak in the Committee stage of this bill—but is it actually a pleasure because here we are yet again debating legislation that is denying the people of Canterbury their full democratic rights to elect a full regional council. Every time this subject is raised in this House I am reminded of the stone cairn that stands in Cathedral Square in Christchurch. That stone cairn was erected back in 2010 by the thousands of Cantabrians who were very concerned and aghast that this Government was going to be stripping them of their democratic rights stripping them of their elected regional councillors.That was a very passionate act by the people of Canterbury. The stones in that cairn stand so high; it is probably as tall as I am. The stones in that structure are drawn from many of the rivers that are in the wider Canterbury catchment. That cairn marks the loss of democracy. That cairn was erected in 2010 and here we are in 2016 debating more legislation that will extend the stripping of the rights of Cantabrians for another 3 years. So from 2010 to 2019 the people of Canterbury are being denied their right their democratic right to elect their regional councillors.We have heard from the Minister Nick Smith. He trots out the same excuses and justifications all the time. He will make disparaging remarks about anybody who has a contrary view to his. But what we need to remember is that whatever body the council may be—and we are now talking about a transitional governing body—at the end of the day the water issues in Canterbury in the wider Canterbury region are not going to be fixed by this body. They are not going to be fixed by bodies beyond that time. Hopefully it will be an elected body though that will advocate for and represent the people of Canterbury to ensure that there will be some better managed water in the region. But we are talking about issues that are very complex. In essence we are talking about not having enough water and a lot of competing interests who need that water. That is not going to be fixed overnight.So I raise the hypothetical question: what if come 2019 the plans are still not in place? What say this transitional governing body still has not completed the work that it was charged to do? I know that Dame Margaret Bazley and David Caygill are outstanding public servants and are highly esteemed—highly esteemed—but that is a monumental task they have before them. They have made some progress but what say they have not completed the task? What then? Do we come back to this House and put through more legislation to push it out even further: “Oh we need more time. The people of Canterbury—we can’t trust them to elect. We need to have this transitional period for a little bit longer.”? So it goes on and on and on. We have seen this from 2013 and here we are in 2016 with legislation that goes all the way out to 2019.No matter which way you want to construct things or proscribe things or prescribe an outcome for the people of Canterbury ultimately we have to take the decision back to the people and let them have their say as to who will represent them on the regional council.TIM MACINDOE (Senior Whip—National): I move That the question be now put.The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): I am going to hear from the Hon David Parker. He is on the select committee.Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour):I want to address two of the issues that the Hon Nick Smith raised. Firstly I heard him say that Environment Canterbury was the worst regional council that there has ever been. I know that my colleague Eugenie Sage is quite rightly defensive of the prior council on which she served. But I think I do agree with the Minister—and there is truth in both these propositions.It is right that it was wrong that all those years after the Resource Management Act Environment Canterbury still did not have an effective water plan in place. It is also true that the most recently elected council of which Eugenie Sage was part had actually made more progress towards the creation of a water plan than any of the other prior councils. So I can understand her taking umbrage at some of the generalised criticisms that were made by Nick Smith. Can I say that I do not think you should have taxation without representation. It is a basic precept of democracy.Denis O’Rourke: Fundamental.Hon DAVID PARKER: Fundamental thank you. It is fundamental. It has been so long already that we have had rates being imposed by a council that is not democratic that it is just time to go back to a fully democratic one. I think it is good that David Caygill is actually one of the commissioners standing for the council. All of them could do that if they wanted to continue on in that role and actually I suspect that some of them would get elected and you could have that continuity in that way.I want to mention another thing. I am bit tired of Dr Smith pretending that nothing was ever done before he walked the Earth when in actual fact there was a national policy statement waiting to be implemented mere weeks after the change of Government. Nick Smith shakes his head and the excuse he normally gives when he speaks is that it was illegal—that the national policy statement that was prepared by the Principal Planning Judge of New Zealand Judge Sheppard was somehow in breach of the Resource Management Act but he has never been willing to release the legal advice to that effect. And if it was illegal because it was prescriptive in what needed to be done in terms of controlling intensity of land use which is the main reason why water quality has continued to get worse why did they not change the law then rather than changing the law now in the Resource Management Act legislation that has just been given a first reading in this House a couple of months ago?In reality that is what needed to happen. Actually what needed to happen was that someone needed to say that things that are clean ought to stay clean and things that are dirty ought to be cleaned up over say a generation. And because we know that it is increases in land use intensity with more irrigation more fertiliser more livestock effluent adding the nutrient and faecal chloroform load on waterways—that is what needed to be controlled and has not been. Even now it is not controlled properly.I know that the plan we now have in Environment Canterbury is a lot better and I am actually pleased that the Minister did appoint those commissioners and clean out a lot of the crap that we have in plans that is unnecessary and makes them complex as it makes them more readable instruments that actually do what they are meant to do. But even in Canterbury we have still got declining water quality. I was out just a matter of weeks ago fly fishing in the back country of Canterbury. I was there with a friend of mine who uses a fishing guide. The fishing guide said that in the last 3 years he has stopped using rivers like the lower stretches of the Ōpihi and other mid - South Canterbury rivers that are continuing to get worse year by year. I was going to say day by day but that is not right—year by year. The big difference has been that in the last 3 years it has got so bad that he no longer fishes them. He can no longer take people along there to fish them. We saw those photos on Q+A in the weekend. Some of those rivers are being sucked dry the minimum flows are not high enough and the water quality controls are not good enough.I am ready to trust our democratically elected environmental people to do their job. I would also note that the good work that these commissioners have done actually has not been because of the national policy statement. That is actually not what has caused them to do what they have done. They have done that notwithstanding the national policy statement.Lastly before I sit down I think the so-called collaborative processes that we have got under the Land and Water Forum have failed. I know the Land and Water Forum has done some good things but they are actually lowest common denominator outcomes. It cannot agree on things like pricing. This Ashburton thing where billions of litres of water are going to be bottled at profit with no price imposed—on the Land and Water Forum some wanted to but they could never agree.MATT DOOCEY (National—Waimakariri): I move That the question be now put.A party vote was called for on the question That the question be now put.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Motion agreed to.The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 4A be agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That the amendment be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Amendment agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Part 1 as amended agreed to.Part 2 Governance arrangements during transition periodDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): I would like to speak in this first contribution on clauses 8 and 10. Clauses 8 and 10 of course are where the transitional governing body is established and the process for electing members to that body. This really is where the substance of this legislation is.These clauses of the bill were subject to a number of submissions and the bulk of the submissions that the Local Government and Environment Committee heard—there were 76 submissions from individuals and organisations and 1076 form-based submissions—objected to the non-democratic mode that was being established under this transitional body. For example the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society of New Zealand in its submission was opposed to having Government-appointed members on the council whom the people of Christchurch are expected to trust have their interests at heart without any ability to know whether that is the case. This was just one of many submissions.What clause 8 of this legislation does is establish that there be seven elected members and six appointed members. This is the part of the legislation where the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Local Government are able to appoint these members to the body rather than like in every other part of the country where electors who are registered to vote get to elect 100 percent of their regional councillors.I would just like to pick up on one of the contributions that the Minister for the Environment made in a previous part of the legislation. He seemed to in no way answer the call as to why a case for a different set of circumstances is required in Canterbury and I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he has plans for rolling this out any further outside Canterbury because I do not think just the people of Canterbury should be concerned about this legislation. This legislation sets a dangerous precedent which is that central government takes control of what should be a locally elected council and puts that in place.This is not something the Minister will be unaware of because this is of course something the Minister did receive some advice on and we know some of the updates the Minister for the Environment was receiving said the purpose of local government includes “providing democratic local decision-making and action. Long-term unconventional arrangements in Canterbury could create a precedent for further ad hoc local governance and service delivery arrangements.” So officials were warning Ministers that there would be a concern this is a precedent-setting set of circumstances that we are putting in place under clause 8 of this legislation on the transitional governing body. I am most eager to hear the Minister in the chair Nick Smith talk more about that.My colleague the member for Mana raised some of the Law Society’s submissions around this very fundamental aspect of who it is who is going to govern the region of Canterbury its services and its assets. The Law Society stated that “The proposed further suspension of full democracy is inconsistent with core constitutional values. The justification for the proposed mixed-model governance structure is not sufficiently convincing and the need for the continuance of appointed Commissioners has not been demonstrated.” I would like to hear the Minister’s response to the Law Society’s raising that in its submission to the select committee because I think we should not ignore the submissions that came before the select committee.The select committee process was terrible. There was only around a week that was open for people to get their submissions in and the process was truncated. It is not acceptable when a piece of legislation contains a clause such as clause 8 which is the further suspension of democracy in a region that a Minister and a Government think it is OK to put that legislation through in a rushed and clumsy process. As I said in an earlier contribution it is not like the Minister did not know. It had been 3 years since he had last cancelled elections in Canterbury. You would have thought he would have had it marked on his calendar—“Time to cancel elections again in Canterbury.”—and could have planned his time accordingly but no. Instead the people of Canterbury did not even get an adequate opportunity to comment on such a fundamental clause as clause 8 of this legislation.I would also like to talk about clause 10 now which is the process for electing members. Of course once this legislation is enacted what will happen is there will be a representation the representation processes will go into place and the boundaries will be established. In terms of the number of electors some work has been done on this already. Clause 10 sets this out very clearly in the bill as “Seven elected members of the transitional governing body must be elected at the 2016 election—”. It goes on to say that they must be elected through a first-past-the-post system and then says “One member must be elected by electors within the districts of the following local authorities (the South Canterbury constituency):”. It goes through and it names the mid-Canterbury constituency and the North Canterbury constituency but if we look very closely at what Ministers were receiving advice on about the possible numbers in each of these constituencies we see very clearly the Government’s agenda laid bare.If you live in Christchurch City under the Government’s proposed model you will have one regional councillor for every 90475—no not you Mr Chairman. You do not live there. You are lucky enough to have an elected regional council. But for the people of Canterbury who live in Christchurch City they will have one elected regional councillor for every 90475 people. That is only four regional councillors for the whole of Christchurch City. But if someone is lucky enough to live in South Canterbury their representation is somewhat more salubrious. They are going to have greater representation because there will be a regional councillor for every 59770 electors.I want to hear the Minister take a call and explain the discrepancies in what is otherwise just a good old-fashioned gerrymander. This is nothing more than the Government wanting to stop urban councillors coming in with what it might see as an environmental agenda and asking some questions around the big issues that need to be faced in Canterbury. It shows how short-sighted this Government is and how out of touch and how arrogant it is. It says one of the justifications for putting in place this gerrymandered council is the need that we have around our water but it also talks about the functions that have to happen in the recovery and now the regeneration of Canterbury. Well a big part of that has to happen in Christchurch City and a large part of that function needs to happen within the city. To say there should be only one councillor for every 90000 electors is simply unacceptable.The role that Environment Canterbury has to fulfil in Christchurch City—its functions are now enacted under the Regenerate Christchurch legislation. It can be a proponent of regeneration plans. It has a very core aspect to play. So what we are saying is it is not people from Christchurch City who will be proposing those regeneration plans because we are going to have under-representation of that core area of the region in this newly constituted body—no we will have people all from outside Christchurch. So I am very much looking forward to the Minister’s call on how it is that that can be justified. I am also looking forward to the Minister taking a call and answering the Law Society’s criticism of what is being established under clause 8 of this legislation because these are fundamental and important questions that none of us should take lightly.Let us be very clear. We are standing in this Chamber debating legislation that will further—well it will not further it because the vote has already been taken away. But it will do nothing to put in place the democratic rights that the people of Christchurch and Canterbury should consider they have a right to like any other New Zealander. This is a democratically elected body of people who are debating whether or not a Minister has the power to just override electors and appoint whomever he wants because this is a Minister who is on the record as saying that democracy is risky. When we have a Minister who thinks democracy is risky we have in legislation things such as clause 8 which take away the right of Cantabrians to elect their regional council. Thank you.Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): For the Committee to take seriously the protestations that are being made by Megan Woods when she says that this is an affront to democracy and that I am all these terrible things she needs to ask this question: was it an affront to democracy when Helen Clark sacked the Auckland District Health Board? Did that make her a person like Rabuka? Does Labour in fact support as the National Government does Helen Clark becoming the Secretary-General of the United Nations—Hon Clayton Cosgrove: I don’t think that’s in the bill Nick.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: —and actually a person who served this Parliament well? Well Clayton Cosgrove needs to answer that question.Kris Faafoi: Is that in Part 2?Hon Dr NICK SMITH: Because if it is an affront to democracy and if the actions that the Government has taken in respect of Environment Canterbury are just the same I would say to Mr Faafoi as what Rabuka did in Fiji—if he wants to make that analogy he has to answer the question as to whether it was OK for Helen Clark to sack the elected Auckland District Health Board. Was it OK for David Cunliffe to sack the elected Hawke’s Bay District Health Board? Was it OK to sack the Rodney District Council? Was it OK to sack the Kaipara District Council? Because the key point that members opposite are not answering is that there is a fundamental difference between a National Government—a sovereign Parliament—and a subsidiary body.In exactly the same way I would put this to members: did democracy come to an end when a Labour Government said that it was no longer appropriate to elect electric power boards? We do not elect electric power boards anywhere in the country any more. Is it fundamentally opposed to democracy the fact that we no longer elect port companies—that we no longer elect harbour boards which used to be elected? Actually this Parliament makes choices all the time about specialist bodies—whether they are managing water whether they are managing health boards whether they are managing harbours whether they are managing schools or whether they are managing a whole number of subsidiary functions—as to what is the best way to run them and in our view quite appropriately.I acknowledge the sensible contribution from David Parker who actually acknowledged that the highly skilled commissioners—people like Margaret Bazley people like Peter Skelton people like David Caygill—have actually done a very good job of getting on top of the water issues in Canterbury.Then the second issue is: why is this extension and this transition necessary? Well actually when this Parliament passed the Environment Canterbury legislation we had no idea that 5 months later Canterbury would be struck by the worst earthquake and the biggest national disaster there has been in the lifetime of most parliamentarians in this Committee today. Actually that earthquake did change things. For instance a huge amount of the time and effort of the commissioners had to go into the earthquake issues rather than the water issues. The reality is that the building in which Environment Canterbury operated became completely unsafe and the whole organisation had to relocate. So for members of the Labour Party to disingenuously claim that nothing changed after the Government’s intervention which required more time to do the work is to deny the history of Canterbury the significance of the earthquakes which made the transition and the issues for Environment Canterbury all the more significant.I also want to take issue with the simply wrong claims—he is wrong on so many occasions—from Clayton Cosgrove who said a few moments ago that actually there will be more elected members from rural Canterbury than from urban Canterbury. That is not true. The legislation provides for four councillors to be elected from the city of Christchurch and three from the areas of South Canterbury mid-Canterbury and North Canterbury. Anybody who knows Canterbury would know that those are well-understood boundaries and that those are the logical areas to be able to bring in those three representatives covering the areas of South Canterbury of Ashburton and so on in mid-Canterbury and of Waimakariri Hurunui and Kaikōura in North Canterbury. It is a logical way in which to bring those representatives in.The two final points I wish to make are these. Members of Labour are saying that it is an affront to democracy and that it is totally wrong to have mixed-member Government bodies. They need to explain why the Labour Government legislated in this Parliament for exactly that structure for the district health boards that operate in every part of this country and in Canterbury. If they really want to be true to the speeches that they have just given they will make a commitment in their next speech that every district health board including Canterbury’s will be fully elected because if they do not give that commitment their contributions are no more than hot air and politics.The very last point I would make is that members have asked the question of why it is that the further 3 years is required—that is simply why Canterbury? It has such huge issues over water—far more significant than any other region—that only two of the zones have operative plans. This 3 years—and it is very clear in the paper trail—will enable us to have a fully operative water plan for the part of New Zealand where the water issues are so huge and so significant.The last point I would wish to make is that this provision in the bill says that the Government can appoint up to six commissioners. As I have previously said publicly the most important issue for the Government is the continuity—the continuity of having those highly skilled commissioners who have actually done a damned good job of sorting those things through. By having these mechanisms in this part of the bill it enables us to retain the skills of those people whom even Labour members acknowledge have been crucial to lifting the game in Canterbury. The Government reserves the right to appoint a lesser number if they are not required for continuity to maximise the point of say from the people of Canterbury.EUGENIE SAGE (Green): I am tired of Minister Nick Smith repeating the comments about commissioners who were appointed in relation to district health boards. They were in place for a much shorter time than these appointed members will be on the regional council. Also the Minister again is being rather mischievous in failing to recognise that district health boards derive all of their income from national taxes. They are Crown agents for the purpose of the Crown Entities Act which sets out and prescribes their objectives and functions in quite limited terms. Because they are funded totally by taxes it is then quite different when the Minister appoints representatives there to carry out the Crown’s objectives. Regional councils are different. They are funded largely by rates and through some funding from the National Land Transport Fund in terms of public transport. That is what the fundamental objection to this legislation is. There is no comparison with district health boards.I think the fact that the Minister keeps coming back to previous Governments having appointed commissioners to replacedistrict health boards for a short period of time shows the emptiness of the Government’s justification for this legislation. It claims—and it has claimed in the discussion document that the Ministry for the Environment put out—that it is essential that we have appointed rather than elected members because that seems to be the only way that the Government believes that you can encourage strong organisational performance and effective decision-making. What does the Minister and what does the Government think is happening in regional councils around the country and in district and city councils around the country? For this Parliament the electorate is trusted to elect competent people to undertake quite complex governance functions to make decisions with big budgets on complex issues and yet somehow in Canterbury just because it is about water the Government does not trust the people of Canterbury to elect competent councillors to be able to do that.That is again because the Government has a very extractive agenda. It wants to promote more irrigation and more agricultural intensification. That is the real justification for this bill and for the Ministers having such massive powers to appoint six members of the council.In Part 2 under clause 15 the members may also be removed at the discretion of the responsible Ministers the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Local Government. Those powers are at their complete discretion. There are no constraints on Ministers having appointed those six members as to when they would remove them. That means that if the appointed members do not meet the satisfaction of Ministers they can just be removed and the Ministers do not even have to give any reasons. This is highly paternalistic and it is highly undemocratic—the powers that we are giving to Ministers in this bill to remove the ability of Cantabrians to elect competent members of their council.The comments that Megan Woods made about the representation—one of the recommendations in the Creech report was that the representation of the city of Christchurch should be reviewed. That is not happening and the city of Christchurch and Christchurch citizens will be very much under-represented in this new model and that is why Opposition members have accused the Government of gerrymandering with this bill. It gives much better representation in terms of the ratio of elected councillors to number of citizens to those in the rural constituencies than to those in Christchurch. If we look across the country—under this mixed model with the appointed members we will have one councillor per 90000 people in Christchurch and yet an average of one councillor per 82000 people across Canterbury. In the Waikato there is one elected councillor for every 31000 people in the Bay of Plenty there is one councillor for every 21000 people and in Wellington there is one councillor for every 38000-odd people. That is a much more effective and accessible method of local representation than this bill which is having only one councillor for every 90475 people in Christchurch.This is undemocratic Minister. The justifications that the Government has given show that it does not really trust democracy at all. Potentially people in Christchurch may not turn out to vote because why would you vote for councillors around a table when almost half of the other people at the table can have a hot line to the Minister—when councillors can be potentially overruled by the Government appointees? The power is staying in Wellington—it is not being given back to elected members in Canterbury.The other issue is just these excuses that the Minister keeps giving by saying that only two of 10 zone committees in Canterbury have developed sub-catchment plans to be part of the regional land and water plan. It is interesting the double standard. Environment Canterbury for much of its initial life struggled with the issue of clean air in Christchurch. That was a major issue for the health of Christchurch people resulting in additional deaths each year. The elected council focused on air then it moved to water.The Minister has been highly critical of elected councillors for their failure to develop an operative plan though there was a proposed one yet now the Minister is giving the same reason—the need for more time—as an excuse to continue the appointment of commissioners as he was so critical of elected councillors. There is no consistency there. If only two of the 10 sub-catchment plans have been completed by commissioners how can the Government then say they have done a good job if the commissioners were appointed to improve water management and if the commissioners were appointed to expedite the planning process? Well they have obviously failed there if only two of these sub-catchment plans have actually been done.Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour): That speech by Nick Smith—he is great at bandying words like “nasty” and various things around—was one of the most disingenuous speeches I have ever heard from that member. He effectively said that one of the reasons the Government extended it in 2013 was that “there was an earthquake” and yes they had to relocate offices and those sorts of things. Well that is not what he said of course in speeches to this House and other places in respect of the issues in terms of outstanding water consents and other issues at the time. So to treat Cantabrians with disdain to treat them like fools and to use their misery in an earthquake to justify his incompetence or to justify his extension—which he put down to the array of water issues and water consents at the time not an earthquake—I think even for him is a bit low. It is a bit low for that member. It is called clutching at straws and the Minister needs to read the Standing Orders because it is our job to ask the Minister questions and it is his job to answer them.In Part 1—and these are the same questions I put because they are relevant to clause 8. I ask the Minister these questions again. Where is the justification for this extension? Why is it that unlike his colleague Gerry Brownlee who promoted a piece of legislation as late as last week that gives wide responsibilities to leaders and community leaders in Canterbury—acknowledging that they were good enough tough enough and smart enough to step up to the plate to work in partnership with the Crown and to take greater responsibility for the earthquake—he brings legislation with a completely contrary view?He is good at throwing around insults but he is not good at actually answering the particular questions. And I put the question to him again: why does he not have faith? He says he has faith in the commissioners. They are skilled and I agree with David Parker that they are commendable for many of the things they have done. But they Minister also have the opportunity because they are citizens of New Zealand to demonstrate if they so wish and test those skills and stand in a democratic election if they want to. David Caygill for instance a former member in this House and a former Minister knows elections extremely well and if he for instance wanted to test his mandate he could stand. I know that he is a man of honour and integrity. Even he does not need to rely to demonstrate his skills on a mandate in accountability derived directly from that Minister and his Government.But why is it—and if the Minister wants to answer I will be quite happy to let him do it—that he does not feel there are sufficient numbers of Cantabrians who are bright intelligent and smart enough and who are responsible enough to actually take all the positions through an election on a regional council? It is answered I think by the fact that many members have quoted him—he said democracy is risky. I think the Minister should reflect on that comment as a person who is elected to this House. He talked about Rabuka in his last contribution—Sitiveni Rabuka and the coup in Fiji. He introduced that. I suspect that at that time Colonial Rabuka viewed democracy as risky. But to bring in that theme as a justification for his stance saying that democracy is risky I think says an abundance about him. It is quite bizarre for a member who is elected to this House who holds a ministerial warrant and I presume believes in the sort of—well at least in central government terms—constitutional arrangements that we have.I would have thought—sorry if you are going to say something you have got to actually articulate not mouth the words. Noise has to come out of your mouth Minister. No no speak up—say it again.Hon Dr Nick Smith: Always so nasty.Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE: Oh OK. That justifies my point Minister because that is your only defence. You are incapable as a Minister of actually—The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): Order!Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE: Sorry he is—not you Mr Chairman. He is incapable as a Minister of actually answering the questions. If you would like to answer them I am happy to yield to you. Why is it that you simply do not trust the leadership within the community of Canterbury? Why it is that you use the justification that Environment Canterbury had to relocate its offices? That was one of the reasons the Minister had to go back on his word and extend it for 3 years—because there was an earthquake. I put it to that Minister that we had the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority—The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): I am going to call—[Interruption]—Denis O’Rourke. But just before I do I say that when a member goes for the call they call out and either I acknowledge them or I do not. All right? You do not just stand up and say something because that is unacceptable.DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First): I first of all want to refer to clause 8 which is the one that provides for the mixed elected and appointed council—seven elected and six appointed—and I just want to say this. I think that is a risky kind of a council to establish. It is likely to create tensions between those who are appointed and those who are elected. We are likely to get a them-and-us attitude and it is not going to be positive for an organisation that should actually be representative of the people and not of the Government. So I will leave that there. I have said that I think it is a bad idea. I have said that it is likely to be dysfunctional and I think it will be.I want to go on and say this about clause 8(1)(a). In the first version of the bill it referred to only “7 elected members;” but now it refers to “no fewer than 4 and no more than 7 elected members;”. So it is envisaged that there will be in some circumstances fewer than seven elected members at a particular time although under clause 8(1)(b) there will be up to six appointed members and there could therefore be at any particular time a majority in fact of appointed people and not of elected people. I presume the reason why this clause has been drafted in the way it is is that it would provide for deaths or resignations of elected people and that is fair enough. But why is it not drafted to preserve the majority of elected people over appointed people at all times?The Ministers could suspend any particular appointed person or persons in order to maintain a majority of elected people and that is what should have been done in the bill. Otherwise the Government and the Ministers are accepting the possibility—in fact almost the inevitability—that there could be at a particular time a majority of appointed people over elected ones because many councils have either deaths or resignations for some reason or another during a 3-year term. So I think that is a problem in the bill that simply has not been addressed and perhaps the Minister in the chair would like to comment on that.I want to move on however to the reference in clause 11(2) which deals with appointed members and the need for skills. It seems to me that this is one of the main reasons why the Government believes that there needs to actually be appointed members at all. But when you look at it this is what it actually says. It says that those skills are: “(a) the management of fresh water;”. Well that is not exclusive to appointed members. In fact there are many many very skilled and experienced people in Canterbury who could be elected to represent the need for a skill in the management of fresh water. Clause 11(2)(b) states: “local authority governance and management;”. Actually you would find more people with those skills amongst elected people than you would amongst appointed people. So that does not hang very well. Subclause (2)(d) refers to knowledge of “the Canterbury region and its people.” Again I would have thought that elected people would have greater skills than appointed people as far as the knowledge of the Canterbury region and its people is concerned.So these reasons really do not make much sense and do not justify the need for appointed people at all. Perhaps the Minister could explain that. What he has said is that what the Government wants is continuity. Well what is the magic about continuity? The real issue is not continuity; the real issue is having a mix of skills. In fact that is what the bill says not what the Minister says. If continuity was the issue why is that not in the bill? In fact what is in the bill is about skills but as I have just said that does not actually make sense in justifying the need for appointed people at all. So I think the Government’s whole argument actually crashes to the ground right there.I want to go on and mention this. Clause 11(4) refers to the validity of appointed members not being affected if they do not actually have those skills. Well if you are going to have that subclause there why is the whole thing there at all? In fact why are there any appointed members at all if they do not have to have those skills by authority under subclause (4)?I also want to talk about subclause (1A) which relates to Ngāi Tahu representation. This is where we in New Zealand First depart from all of the other parties in the Committee. We think that having Ngāi Tahu representation especially as many as two members on Environment Canterbury is wrong in principle. We think that having any appointed members is wrong in principle. We think quite apart from that that the appointment to an elected body of people or even a partly elected body of people based on their race or on their ethnicity is fundamentally wrong. We would oppose the bill for that reason alone.There should be no appointed people on elected bodies. It compromises the effectiveness of those bodies and it compromises the fact that they are democratic and should operate democratically. We would support however an advisory body of Ngāi Tahu people the views of whom for example must be taken particular notice of by Environment Canterbury in making its decisions. But actual membership by appointment to an elected body is wrong and New Zealand First would definitely always oppose that. We know that other parties do not have that position but we do.For all of those reasons I would say that this bill should not be passed. But again I would just repeat this: the Minister has said that continuity is the big deal. He has not said why really when in fact that is not in the bill at all. What is in the bill is the need for skills. In the bill the skills required are specified but in fact you will get those skills through the election of people and probably better through the election of people than you would by appointment. I would like the Minister to try to say why having regard to all of that we actually need appointed members at all. Why not just go straight to an elected body this year and be done with it?MATT DOOCEY (National—Waimakariri): I move That the question be now put.CLARE CURRAN (Labour—Dunedin South): What this Government will not say is that the justification for the extension of non-democracy in this bill is the continuation of central government’s control over regional government. That is what this Government will not say. It is pathetic to over and over again hear members of this Government—including the Minister in the chair today the Hon Nick Smith and the Prime Minister earlier today—get up and say that just because the previous Labour Government did something at some point in the past then that is justification for whatever it is doing now in the present with no rational discussion around it no evidence base and nothing that is actually sensible to go with it.It is just saying “Look Labour over there.” then: “Ignore what we are doing here.” It is pathetic and it happens almost every day in this House.We know that there is a terrible process that has gone into this bill—my remarks in my contribution will be directed to clause 10(1) (2) (3) (4) and (5)—that has not allowed the public proper time for submissions on the actual bill. We know that the submitters were overwhelmingly opposed to this bill and that is why we are describing it as an affront to democracy.I want to take us back to look at when this bill actually came to the Local Government and Environment Committee and at some of the information that informed it with direct reference to clause 10 “Process for electing members”. The regulatory impact statement which was prepared by the Department of Internal Affairs and the Ministry for the Environment noted in the summary that public consultation on what actually appears in this bill was confined to only the proposal for the preferred option of a mixed-model governance structure rather than the range of options. There were I think three options in the original regulatory impact statement but the actual public consultation was confined to only this mixed-model governance structure. The questions in the discussion document encouraged comment on the other solutions.Some submitters did so but those ministries said it limited the ability to present full community views on other options. They also said—and this goes directly to the Minister’s comments when he spoke before—that although this mixed-model governance structure is based on a district health board model the proposed governance model has an element of uncertainty as to its effectiveness as it has not been used previously in a local government context.That is the point. Although the Minister gets up and says “Oh well Labour did something in the past and by the way it’s based on a district health board model.” the thing is that it is uncertain as to whether or not that would work for a regional council.When the original consultation occurred there were 13 submissions received from local authorities—nine Canterbury councils and the Horizons Regional Council the Waikato Regional Council the Otago Regional Council and the Canterbury Mayoral Forum. As you would expect six of those nine submissions received from the Canterbury councils—and of course these are the ones that are going to get representation under this mixed-model governance structure as is referenced in clause 10. Of the seven elected members three of them are going to be from those regional Canterbury councils. They supported the mixed-model proposal but only five supported it as it was set out in the discussion document. The Ashburton District Council was concerned about the ratio of elected members—JAN LOGIE (Green): I rise to take a short call on Part 2 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill. I would like to speak to two points specifically. One is I think that the concept of this undermining and removing of our democracy—even more than being an affront to it—has been quite well canvassed but I do want to talk about that a little bit more. I would also like to talk about the concept of subsidiarity. In terms of local government in New Zealand there are two core concepts that govern the ruling of local government and they are democracy and subsidiarity which is the localised decision-making and devolved powers. That is quite commonly understood as good governance and this legislation is messing with that to put it bluntly.With this bill the responsible Ministers from here in Wellington will get to appoint six members representing the perspectives of those two appointing Ministers from being based here. Neither of them are based in Canterbury and there is no requirement for at least four of those members to be of that area. Of course two will be nominated by Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu and that is a provision that the Green Party actually supported. But there is no question that this bill is a compromise on the core principle of subsidiarity which is that local decision-making is more likely to produce better results and that people who are embedded in a community and who are accountable to the community they are representing are more likely to produce better governance.I do want to point out too that in Part 2 the Ministers have the discretion to remove appointed members at any time and that includes the members who have been nominated by Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu. The Ministers would be required to only consult before they do that. Really that is a lot of control. It is also I would suggest a removal of the stability for the area that there cannot be—we know at the moment that people are elected and that it is actually quite a disincentive for people to leave while they still have a position because they know they will be forcing an election if they leave before their term is up whereas this legislation is enabling Ministers to remove somebody if they are not doing what those Ministers like and to just put somebody else in. We have no guarantee of the people’s control but we also do not have a guarantee of stability whereas one of the Minister for the Environment’s arguments for this entire transitional model is to ensure continuity. Actually for us there is no guarantee of that continuity. This legislation I think gives us less assurance of continuity than if we had elected members.I do want to just again speak to that point of democracy. Although the Government has provisions in here that focus on skills and expertise it has to be pointed out that there are council staff who could provide skill and expertise alongside the voice and the decision making of democratically elected people. There have alsobeen changes—which we did not necessarily support—to the Local Government Act that enable the Minister to appoint observers to sit alongside councils so that the Government can have that assurance if it has concerns about the functioning of a council. That could also provide that so-called continuity. No justification that makes any sense to me has been made to say why we need to have six out of 13 members appointed. I have not heard any case to say why the people of Canterbury do not deserve their democracy back.RINO TIRIKATENE (Labour—Te Tai Tonga): I am pleased to make a contribution on Part 2. I want to just pick up on the points that Mr O’Rourke make in relation to clause 11(1A) and (1B). Those provisions give Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu the right to appoint two members to this transitional body. I do want to commend the majority of the Local Government and Environment Committee for their support of the insertion of those provisions because notwithstanding the deep concern that I have around the principle of full democracy for the people of Canterbury I do support the principle of mana whenua representation at the regional council level on Environment Canterbury.I do not necessarily want to try to lecture Mr O’Rourke—we have different views and we represent different constituencies—but it is fundamental and this was recognised by the committee itself that Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu is the tribal authority over 80 percent of Te Wai Pounamu the South Island. It has significant interests in the management of Canterbury’s natural resources. It goes without saying that Canterbury is part of who we are as a people. The landscapes the mountains the rivers the land the coast the sea—all of that is just part and parcel of mana whenua.There has long been jurisprudence and most recently Treaty settlements that affirm those rights. That has been continued in the positive relationship the Crown has—no matter which Government is in power; no matter which parties—to ensure that we promote and support those Treaty relationships. So I do support the insertion of those provisions.But my question I guess is: where to after 3 years? What will mana whenua representation be at a regional council level after 2019? At the moment Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu has been intimately involved in the first phase of commissioners through the requirement that there be expertise in tikanga Māori and also knowledge of the Canterbury area—well you can only really go to Ngāi Tahu for that. That has been reaffirmed in the provisions in clause 11 which I have been referring to.But where to from there? There is now a precedent that has been set a wonderful precedent whereby the mana whenua have been recognised to appoint representatives on to the regional council on to Environment Canterbury. I am sure that every other iwi up and down the country will now be wanting to have the exact same rights and rightly so—rightly so. If it is good enough for those from Ngāi Tahu to be able to appoint two out of a hybrid type of transitional body every other iwi will have the right to assert that they have the exact same status. They can actually add their contribution to enhance the decision making that goes on at that level and that is all Māori have ever wanted.We want to be equal partners in the decision making that goes on at all levels of Aotearoa. This provision does that to an extent but it sets a very very strong precedent for every other iwi and every other regional council across the country as to what can happen. We have seen this in the recognition for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu through similar legislation like the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority legislation and the legislation that we passed just last week to regenerate Christchurch as well. It has carried on into—NUK KORAKO (National): I move That the question be now put.The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard): No I am not going to accept the closure motion now because to date there has been I think it is fair to say fierce debate and debate with slightly different alliances and with members of parties with different points of view. I do not think that we have had much repetition and actually the speeches have mainly been relevant.KRIS FAAFOI (Labour—Mana): Mr Chair I hope that I can continue the relevancy that you have just commented on. I do want to pick up where my colleague Rino Tirikatene finished his speech because he did want to make one point. The point around clause 11(1A) and potentially a question that I have for the Minister in the chair Nick Smith is that yes it is an improvement on this piece of legislation that two of the members appointed to the Environment Canterbury board must be recommended by Ngāi Tahu. The principle on this side is that we do not agree with having Government appointees to this board and so we will not be supporting that but the inclusion of Ngāi Tahu representation is an improvement.Mr Tirikatene talked about a precedent being set here. Actually I think the precedent was set in a piece of legislation that went through this House last week the Greater Christchurch Regeneration Bill where we saw much more consultation from the Government with the people of Canterbury. It was not just with Ngāi Tahu; there was also an onus put on Regenerate Christchurch to seek wider input about things that it wants to do in Christchurch. My question to the Minister is: why is there not the same spirit in this piece of legislation? I think the Local Government and Environment Committee made a good start to it by including Ngāi Tahu within the realms of clause 11 but why did you not go further? Why did you not use the template used by Gerry Brownlee in the Greater Christchurch Regeneration Bill to include and to allow more of a local voice when you had started that process with clauses 11(1A) and 11(1B)?Clauses 11(1A) and (1B) operationalise the ability for the Government to appoint up to six members to the Environment Canterbury board—something for which a case had been made in Part 1 an argument that we disagree with.As the Chair has said there has been a lot of fierce debate within this Committee. There has also been debate by people who have submitted and also some facts have been pointed out by officials around the dubious nature of not putting this out to a wider vote a complete vote for Cantabrians.I mentioned some passages of the regulatory impact statement in my Part 1 speech but I think the departmental disclosure statement in this instance is helpful here. It talks about concerns that the officials had about the objectives of the reform around the Government appointees in clauses 11(1A) and (1B) saying that these “contain clear trade-offs between perceptions of efficiency and environmental stewardship and local democratic accountability.” It goes on to say that “These are difficult to balance without objective information about previous and potential regulatory outcomes so the assessment of options largely relies on subjective valuations.” which the Government obviously thinks rests on its side of the argument. It goes on to say that “The fact that no alternative options were consulted on and that proposals from stakeholders have received limited consideration suggests that the full range of feasible options has not been examined.”In plain English that is saying that the inclusion of clause 11(1A) and (1B) which allows the Government to appoint up to six commissioners to the Environment Canterbury board is something that the Government has blindly done and that it did not look at any other options. It did not look at full democracy—it did not look at putting it out to the people of Canterbury. It made up its mind at the very beginning to put in this clause 11(1A) and (1B) which says that three members must be appointed by the responsible Ministers no later than 28 days after the transition day—I think that means when the other six members are elected—and that they can appoint three more under clause 11(1A) and (1B).I would also like to pose to the Minister another question around the intention of the appointment of board members. During his speeches from the chair he has said that it is about continuity but back in 2010 it was something a lot different to continuity. If I can quote the Minister he said: “The extent of the gap between the capability of ECan and what is required for it to adequately manage freshwater issues is enormous and unprecedented.” Fair enough—the Government can have that concern. He went on to say that “A very large backlog of outstanding issues needs to be addressed before water management in the region reaches”—Su’a WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere): I have got three points that I want to raise with regard to Part 2 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill on this the governance structure in the mixed model. They are three points that nobody else has raised in this Committee. The first point is that this legislation will undermine individual participation and the right of people to participate. The second point I would make is that this legislation will undermine local democracy and undermine the role of local government. The third point I would make is that this legislation will undermine our environmental protection.Before I get on to those three points I do want to say that I am happy to stand with my colleagues from the Canterbury region—Dr Megan Woods Clayton Cosgrove Poto Williams the Hon Ruth Dyson and Rino Tirikatene—to oppose this bill. It is important that we oppose this bill and I will tell you why. I do not know very much about Canterbury. I do not know about Christchurch—I have visited it and I have got contacts there—but I do know when I see injustice being done. The source of injustice is not the people of Canterbury; it is the Minister for the Environment the Hon Nick Smith and I will tell you why. I like the Minister—on a personal level he is a nice man—but his politics give all of us politicians a bad name and I will tell you why. It is because this is the third time that we are in this House repealing previous legislation and enacting other legislation to continue his control over Canterbury.That is the first point: this legislation and this mixed-model Government structure undermine the right of individuals to participate. I will give you an example: Father Paulo of the Samoan Catholic Church in Christchurch. I asked him the other day: “Are you aware of what is happening with your local council with Environment Canterbury?”. He said: “No. We just do not participate now because the Government has taken full control.” He is actually right. The Government has taken full control because the make-up of this governance model is not completely as it should be—of representatives elected by the people. So in so far as Father Paulo and other communities in that area are concerned they have been kept from participating because the Government has sent a very clear message—and it has been a consistent message since 2010 2013 and now 2016—that it is in control and that the public of Canterbury does not have a role to play in this and that it is this Government and it is this Minister who will determine how Environment Canterbury will be run. So that is the first point.The second point as I said is that this legislation actually weakens local democracy and it weakens the role of local government. I point to the regulatory impact statement where it says that this is a “New and untested … structure and could generate uncertainty”. Local government plans way ahead in time—not from 3 years to 3 years. In fact we gave it a piece of legislation where we said to it: “You have got to plan long term.” We are not giving local government any certainty because we are saying now what we said back in 2010-11 which was “You will have this model up to 2019.” but there is no certainty at all.Let me give you another example. The regulatory impact statement says that there will be “Significant change in local government powers; risks of blurred or unclear accountability”. That is the risk identified by the regulatory impact statement. The Minister said earlier that this is the same model that we use for the district health boards. That is like comparing apples with oranges. This is local government which is run on the rates or the taxes that are paid for by the citizens of that area. The district health boards are funded from a ministry of the National Government. What will happen here is you have got two sources of accountability.BARBARA KURIGER (National—Taranaki - King Country): I move That the question be now put.A party vote was called for on the question That the question be now put.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Motion agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That Part 2 be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Part 2 agreed to.Part 3 RMA arrangements during transition periodDENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First): I want to talk particularly about clause 23 which I will read. It says: “In considering any proposed fresh water plan or regional policy statement during the transition period Environment Canterbury must have particular regard to the vision and principles of the Canterbury Water Management Strategy in addition to the matters relevant under the RMA to its decisions made under clause 10(1) of Schedule 1 of that Act.” Clause 19 has a similar effect. What it basically does is entrench the Canterbury Water Management Strategy.I want to tackle Minister Nick Smith over this because when I was speaking earlier and I said that was the case he was shaking his head as though this is not the case. In fact the Canterbury Water Management Strategy is entrenched in this bill which therefore calls into question why you need appointed members in order to protect the Canterbury Water Management Strategy. Perhaps the Minister could explain to us all when the bill specifically does entrench that strategy—which is in fact there which is in fact in operation which is in fact being observed and which is entrenched in this bill—why it is now necessary to have appointed members so that that can be protected. That simply does not make any sense to me at all because it is already in existence. I think that the Minister and the Government’s rationale for the need for appointed members actually fall apart because of that.In fact what could have been done with this bill is that it could have established a fully elected regional council without any appointed members and still have clauses 23 and 19 in order to entrench the Canterbury Water Management Strategy which is really the whole crux of the entire process: to make sure that there was an effective water management strategy for Canterbury. The Minister has said so and everybody else has said so—well actually it is there. It is in operation and in this bill is being entrenched. So again I ask the Minister: why then are you insisting on appointed members?Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): In Part 3 I would like to take a call on clauses 24 25 and 26 which set out the appeal rights that exist under this legislation. These parts of the legislation were subject to a number of submissions at the select committee phase and the people who did take the opportunity to submit on these clauses and the appeal rights that are contained in this legislation were very much opposed to the limiting of the powers of appeal rights. What this legislation does is carry over some provisions that were there under the previous legislation that defined regional governance in Canterbury—the Environment Canterbury (Temporary Commissioners and Improved Water Management) Act 2010—and it replaces requirements in section 55 under that Act. What it does is take away from Cantabrians the rights that everyone else around the country has and that is the right to make appeals to the Environment Court. What this legislation puts in place is that these appeals need to be to the High Court.This is not some small dry technicality buried in the 20-something clauses of a piece of legislation; this fundamentally changes the way in which people can interact with the decision that their local regional council is making. As we all know the Environment Court is a special court in New Zealand. Not only does it have specialist judges but also it is assisted by specialist commissioners who have expertise in resource management in planning in environmental planning in engineering and in science who can be called in. This is a court that can take a much more inquisitorial approach to any appeal that is put before it unlike the High Court where these appeals will be on matters of law only. Whereas people in other parts of the country can go and appeal a decision of their regional council and what it is doing on the basis of the substance and the facts of what is actually happening Cantabrians are limited in their appeal rights to only matters of law. This fundamentally changes the way in which this legislation operates.This is of course a change that Minister Nick Smith who is sitting in the chair has been wanting to get across the line in terms of the Resource Management Act throughout the country but he has been unable to get that across the line with his support partners. So what he is doing here in clauses 24 25 and 26 is trying to impose it in some kind of pilot study on Cantabrians. I do not think it is good enough that just because the Minister cannot get his resource management legislation over the line in this Parliament he decides that Canterbury is some kind of Petri dish where he can put in place different kinds of appeal provisions such as we are seeing in clauses 24 25 and 26 of this legislation. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain to us why it is that Cantabrians will have lesser appeal rights than their contemporaries and their compatriots in other parts of the country because this does have far-ranging impacts on how it is that Cantabrians are going to interact with their regional council and what their rights are.I would also like the Minister to talk about what alternatives might be available to Cantabrians to take an appeal to the High Court because whereas someone could access funding through the environmental legal aid fund which was established to aid people in taking appeals to the Environment Court will there be a similar fund for Cantabrians who want to appeal a decision that is made under this piece of legislation but are forced to take that appeal to the High Court on a matter of law which is a much more expensive process and actually will limit people’s ability to have access to justice around this?Will there be a similar fund to the legal aid fund that is available for people taking cases to the Environment Court?This is about access to justice. We are seeing that this is a Government that is eager to shut down people’s access to the courts and their ability to get their day in court and to have those questions answered in many aspects of Christchurch and Canterbury at the moment. I would like the Minister to take a call on that and I look forward to hearing from him.Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for the Environment): I am delighted to be able to answer the questions that both Denis O’Rourke and Megan Woods have asked about Part 3 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill. Can I deal firstly with the issue of the Canterbury Water Management Strategy of which I think both Mr O’Rourke and I share the view that it was a good piece of work. It was developed collaboratively by the people of Canterbury. It was actually developed by a large amount of work from the mayors and the other councils in Canterbury because they were so frustrated about a lack of progress on water management by the previous Environment Canterbury.But here is the key point that Mr O’Rourke has missed: the Canterbury Water Management Strategy has no legal status. You can have a strategy—sure you can have a strategy—but it has absolutely no legal effect unless it is recognised in law. We recognised it in law in 2010 with the Environment Canterbury legislation and we are recognising it here as a document that Environment Canterbury needs to take into account as it completes the exercise of putting water rules in place in Canterbury.Denis O’Rourke: Exactly. They are the basis of it.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: If Mr O’Rourke’s position is actually to take effect what he is effectively saying is “Great. Canterbury has a water management strategy but it has absolutely no legal status anywhere.” and that to me seems an extremely illogical position. I challenge him. If he really believes in the Canterbury Water Management Strategy he will vote for this bill because it is the only way of giving it any legal status in the management of water under the Resource Management Act. That can be done only with this bill.I now want to come to the question that has been raised by Megan Woods. It is an important one. It is around the appeal rights and it goes to the heart of the challenge around water in Canterbury. You see under the existing schedule 1 process of the Resource Management Act the average time for getting a plan in place is 8 years Actually in the water area it has been even longer than that—more like 15 years—and here is the challenge for Parliament: can Canterbury wait 7 to 15 years to get some rules in place for fresh water? I do not think any member in this Chamber would honestly say that is true.If I listen to the questions of Labour environment spokesperson David Parker in the Chamber today what he is rightly arguing is that actually we need to get some rules around agricultural intensification and other things a lot more quickly than that. But here is the dilemma for Labour members. They cannot argue in one breath that we cannot have any change in the process of submissions of cross-submissions and appeals on putting water plans in place. You cannot have that position and simultaneously argue that you want to get some progress urgently made on getting some constraints and some rules on the water pollution issues in a region like Canterbury.That is why—and this is the hybrid and I openly say to the Parliament that it is a hybrid—we want to be able to appoint people with judicial skills on to Environment Canterbury over the next 3 years. I pay absolute tribute in this Chamber to the work of Environment Canterbury commissioner Peter Skelton one of New Zealand’s most experienced Environment Court judges. We appointed him on to the commission so that we could have a hybrid process of judicial rights judicial skills and other skills in a single-step process.Dr Megan Woods: That is horrifying. That is not an appeal right.Hon Dr NICK SMITH: That is what we are doing with this bill quite deliberately I say to Megan Woods. We do not have time in Canterbury to have the normal long schedule 1 process to get not just the natural resources plan which the commissioners have done but the specific rules for each of the catchments of Canterbury. The best way we believe to do that is to have a hybrid process not have appeals to the Environment Court but ensure that you have got people like Peter Skelton on the process of setting those rules region by region so we can actually get the rules in place. That is where Part 3 in providing for no appeals to the Environment Court is the quid pro quo to ensuring that the Government can appoint those judicial skills and make sure that we get these rules in place once—but that we get it right—and in my view that is the best way forward for Canterbury.EUGENIE SAGE (Green): I think that last speech by the Minister for the Environment shows what a muddle we are getting into with resource management in New Zealand. As I understand what he was saying it was that people with judicial experience will be appointed as the commissioners on Environment Canterbury. They will be hearing the submissions on the plans and yet under the resource legislation the changes that the Minister is making to the Resource Management Act are aimed at reducing the role of elected councillors in making decisions on plan submissions. So we are going to get completely different regimes around the country.In this call I would like to talk specifically about the plan-making provisions in clause 19 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill because what the Local Government and Environment Committee did was restrict the scope of this clause slightly so that it applied only to freshwater plans and the regional policy statement though I suspect there will be debate about what happens with estuaries.The Government has been very mischievous here. At the same time as the Minister has criticised the elected council for being too slow the Government is now giving this hybrid model 9 years until 2019 and giving the commissioners 9 years to develop new plans and yet it is not just shutting off the appeal rights for plans that the second-class model has finalised—it has heard the submissions it has made the decisions and then it has said there is no ability to appeal to the Environment Court—but it is also shutting off the appeal rights to the Environment Court for plans that the regional council has simply notified before they have gone through that whole submission and hearing process.So it means that this bill is going to extend its impact way beyond 2019 because Environment Canterbury will be able to notify any freshwater plans in the dying days of the hybrid model in mid-2019 and the public in Canterbury still will not be able to appeal that plan because of the effect of this legislation applying to notified plans and not just to plans on which the council has made decisions. To me that highlights the Government’s desire to absolutely control the way in which plan making is done in Canterbury and the way in which the rule regime will work to ensure that you get a regime that irrigators and water users like rather than one that actually protects fresh water.We have seen with the collaborative process that the Minister is so proud of in Canterbury environmental organisations and Fish and Game being highly critical of that being captured by irrigators and users walking away from the process. And so the decisions on what the plan should be will be made increasingly by zone committees and the council with appointed members on it. It will not have the check which appeal rights to the Environment Court provide for everybody to be able to challenge those provisions because as Megan Woods has noted there is no appeal right to the Environment Court only on points of law to the High Court which is a much more circumscribed process. So not only is this bill about undermining local democracy but in this part it is also about constraining access to justice by removing the ability to appeal to the Environment Court not only between now and 2019 but well beyond that for all of those plans that Environment Canterbury may notify in the last dying days of the hybrid model in 2019.The other issue I would like to talk about in this part is clause 21 about water conservation orders. There was a report in 2011 by the New Zealand Conservation Authority which the Minister will be familiar with that highlighted that we have not done enough in New Zealand to protect our rivers and lakes and waterways. The Resource Management Act and the definition of sustainable management is about use development and protection but too much of the decision making and the plan making focuses on use and development and very little of it focuses on protection. Water conservation orders have been the major mechanism that Fish and Game and conservation groups have used to implement a degree of protection particularly around flows rather than water quality.This Government with the principal Act totally overrode the provision for a water conservation order for the magnificent Hurunui River. It retrospectively prevented the Environment Court from hearing appeals on that water conservation order and now in clause 21 the Government is providing for the same processes that apply around the rest of New Zealand to again apply in Canterbury. We should welcome that because it is one area where Canterbury is not being singled out for a second-class regime. But—and there is a big “but” here—at the same time as the Minister is giving back the law around water conservation orders to Canterbury rather than the weakened regime that exists in the principal Act where he had the provisions around development having to be given greater weight than the normal Resource Management Act requirements in Part 9 of the Act which are much more about the protection of outstanding values in the Resource Legislation Amendment Bill that is a major attack on water conservation orders.So we will get it back in Canterbury for a short time and then it will be taken away if the Resource Legislation Amendment Bill goes through. Minister Nick Smith is shaking his head but Minister in the Resource Legislation Amendment Bill you are making the requirements of Part 9 subservient to the development requirements of other provisions in the Act. That is fundamentally weakening water conservation orders.So once again this Government in this bill is undermining the protection provisions of the Resource Management Act. It is removing access to justice in terms of the independent Environment Court. So that means that the decisions that the zone committees and this new hybrid council make on plans will have much greater weight. They will be less able to be challenged because of the removal of that appeal right. It is weakening the protection provisions in the Resource Management Act.Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour): I want to refer to clauses 24 and 25 in respect of appeal rights particularly clause 24(3) and revisit some of the arguments that the previous two speakers have noted. I want to note the comments that the Minister made in respect of former Environment Court judge Peter Skelton. He quite rightly pointed out that Judge Skelton is one of New Zealand’s pre-eminent environmental justices a man with huge skill and a history in these particular issues. Then on the other hand he was silent or tried to justify—I cannot recall which—the taking away of appeal rights to the specialist and highly skilled Environment Court which as others have said is highly qualified and far more qualified I would argue than the High Court. It has a process that is inquisitorial and far less prescriptive than the High Court where you can deal with substantive issues and not just appeal on matters of law.So again we see a sort of inherent contradiction. On the one hand the Minister acknowledges that he wants people of skill in the form of Judge Skelton and I accept that. He justifies that because he wants people who know what they are doing. He wants people who are embedded and have a history of influence who are in Judge Skelton’s place—an eminent jurist in respect of environmental matters. But of course he then says: “Well if you want to appeal sorry. We’re not going to allow you to appeal like every other person can outside the Environment Canterbury boundaries around New Zealand to the specialist court and jurisdiction the Environment Court—no. The parties will only be able to appeal to the High Court and those appeals will only be on points of law.”So the question I have for Minister Nick Smith is: what is the justification for that? Like other questions we have put to the Minister in respect of the extension to 2019 and the justification for that there has been no answer to it. So on the one hand you want—quite logical—specialist people experienced people people with the inherent legal skills that you require to make decisions on these issues and on the other hand you say: “No we’re not going to allow parties to be exposed to the court of record the specialist Environmental Court that has been set up for many many years specifically to deal with those issues.”I grant you I am sure there are a number of High Court judges—all High Court judges I am sure would argue that they can decide matters across any jurisdiction. That is the function of a High Court judge. However you would have to argue that issues of a technical nature that are of a specific environmental nature should reside within the Environment Court. Otherwise why have it? Why bother? Get rid of it and just ensure that the court of record is the High Court to deal with all issues technical and otherwise. They could do that but I do not think that would be logical.So the question for the Minister is: why is there a contradiction? What is the justification for limiting appeals or for preventing appeals I should say from going to the Environment Court and requiring them to go to the High Court as in clause 24(3)? What is the point? I would argue that just like the constriction around democracy this is about control. Just like the notion that Cantabrians cannot be trusted to elect good leadership from within their community without being babysat by commissioners this is about control. This is about control and limiting the rights of people both in a democratic sense but as other speakers have said in respect of access to justice.They are pretty heavy actions to take as a Government. We could make reference to other jurisdictions as has been referenced actually by the Minister quite bizarrely—his reference to Sitiveni Rabuka and the Fiji coup in a former speech in the last hour or so. In other jurisdictions that do not value democracy as we in this Parliament in New Zealand do those jurisdictions are more likely to embark down these sorts of paths where you halt elections where you appoint Government folk who are not accountable to those people who elect them—they are accountable to Ministers in a Government—and you restrict the ability of people to exercise their legal rights and more especially their appeal rights.The Minister in answer to some of those questions especially around the issues that I have posed cited district health boards and said: “Well you know”—the usual sort of stuff—“Labour sacked a district health board and x y and z and how can we get up and have the views we do?”. Well there are times in Government when you do actually have to sack some people if they are not actually performing. We would acknowledge that. That is a logical thing to do. But in respect of the district health boards there are a couple of differences. The first is that those district health boards were then rapidly reinstated. The same—the Minister mentioned in his speech—goes for the sacking of school boards where one puts in a commissioner. But again unlike this piece of legislation those school boards as a general rule are pretty rapidly once the situation has stabilised converted back to elected boards of trustees.The third point in respect of district health boards and school boards but especially district health boards is that they derive their income directly from the Government—the taxpayer via the Crown. They are totally Crown funded—totally Crown funded—whereas Environment Canterbury of course apart from some transport funding and others derives the vast majority the overwhelming majority of its funding from the local ratepayer. That is the difference. Do you know the old saying “No taxation without representation.”? It is a bit of a cliché but it is probably apt in this debate today.I am surprised that the Minister again as I have said in other speeches holds the view that he does. Actually his view where he said that “Democracy is risky.”—at least he is being honest about that because as we go through these parts and specifically this part about constricting and preventing the rights to take appeals to the Environment Court and restricting them to the High Court that actually provides evidence that he was telling the truth when he said “Democracy is risky.” I would put it to Government members—there are a few foreign affairs specialists over there—that those are the sorts of attitudes and those are the sorts of actions one would expect from some Third World jurisdictions not from a First World country called New Zealand. But the Minister believes it. It is probably the most honest statement he has made and these actions actually provide evidence that he believes this.So I would like to ask perhaps the Minister in the chair the Hon Nikki Kaye even though it is not her portfolio whether she could shed some light on the contradictions that I have pointed out in respect of the High Court and the Environment Court. I think the people of Canterbury are owed some specific explanations not just a lot of clichés and a lot of lip-service. They have lived with this for 9 years. Gerry Brownlee has seen the light given Cantabrians back a lot of power in respect of the earthquake legislation yet a week later we have this which is pretty heavy-duty Draconian legislation. The Minister sort of gives various commitments. He gave commitments in 2013 and he broke his word. So we wait with bated breath.Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.KRIS FAAFOI (Labour—Mana): I believe we are on Part 3 and schedule 3 of the bill—The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): It is all about water.KRIS FAAFOI: Pardon?The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): It is all about water is it not?KRIS FAAFOI: Right. Yes it is. Correct. That is correct Mr Chair. You are right. Ha ha! I would like to pay particular attention to schedule 3 if I am able to. It is I believe a document that was authored in late 2009 around the vision and principles of the Canterbury Water Management Strategy. I want to focus first on the vision statement that it has. It states that the vision for the strategy is “To enable present and future generations to gain the greatest social economic recreational and cultural benefits from our water resources within an environmentally sustainable framework.” As a vision statement goes I do not think anyone in this Committee would have too much of a problem with that as a vision statement. The problem we have though as in within other parts of this bill—Part 1 Part 2 and Part 3—is the lack of public ability to be able to democratically choose a body to try to achieve that vision statement.I think the vision statement as it stands is a very worthy one but I think the public and especially the people of Canterbury deserve the right to be able to elect an Environment Canterbury board to try to achieve the vision that that schedule 3 sets out. I do not think it is overly complicated. I think that potentially people who were elected to an Environment Canterbury board could achieve that vision statement but my question to the Minister in the chair—and I realise Hon Dr Nick Smith is not in the chair at the moment—is about why he believes that a fully elected Environment Canterbury board cannot achieve that vision statement.The only guide I have is some of the previous statements Dr Smith has made in this part of this debate. He already has a completely different vision statement than what is set out in schedule 3 because he wants to try to achieve that in a particular way which a democratically elected board he believes in his opinion would not be able to achieve. So my question to the Minister in the chair is: why has the Government chosen to not take a fully democratic role or process to ensure there is a fully elected board of Environment Canterbury to achieve that vision statement?Schedule 3 goes on then to outline some of the regional approaches that the Environment Canterbury board—whether it be fully elected or a mixed model as within this piece of legislation—has to go about its business. I think there are two points that I want to point out which are on page 26 one of them being “A consistent regulatory approach to water is applied throughout the Canterbury region recognising these principles.” One of the concerns that we have had is that because there is going to be a different regime for Christchurch you may have different rules for Christchurch or Canterbury and different regimes for other parts of New Zealand. That is clearly pointed out in schedule 3.Then the other quirky one that is in No. 2 under schedule 3 there is a slight contradiction in the way that it wants to approach water management in Canterbury but also elect a board that is going to manage the process of managing water in Canterbury. That is dot point six where it says: “A cautious approach is taken when information is uncertain unreliable or inadequate.” So we have got to be cautious when there is a very murky picture with the water but we are not so cautious when it comes to the democratic process of electing the people who are tasked with carrying out this vision statement.We have pointed out a number of times in the debate on Part 1 the debate on Part 2 and some of my colleagues have done a very good job of pointing it out in this part of the debate that we have serious concerns around the lack of full democratic ability of the people of Canterbury to elect the board. We do have a mixed model here which will elect the board around the water management system.The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): Order! I just want to make a point to the member and maybe to others who are wishing to follow on after him and I will give him the call when I finish making this point. The fact is that it does get a bit repetitive when the same point is made over and over and over again around the democratic process which as everybody has heard is made in the various parts all the way through. But just because the same point is made under each different part does not mean that it is not repetitive. So what I suggest the member and members wishing to take a call do is to dig in to the meat of these provisions and to debate them rather than go back and make the same point over and over and over again because that is repetition and as members will well know being students of the Standing Orders whether or not it is repetition is the province of the guy sitting in this seat.KRIS FAAFOI: I thank you for your guidance in that matter Mr Chair. Just to put the Chair at ease I was just coming to the end of that particular point and I wanted to raise the other issue that is in Part 3 around the judicial process either contained or not contained within this part. The Minister in the chair noted without naming names that instead of allowing there to be an appeal process he was considering—and he almost laid out that he was almost certainly going to do this—appoint a former Environment Court judge to the Canterbury board to do away with the need for an appeal process because the learned judge would be on the board and so he would be able to use his skills to be able to adjudicate in an instance where there may be some contest.In that respect—and I am not going to labour this point Mr Chair because it has been made and repetition is not something that you want to see in this debate—we have concern around that because the judicial process in many other areas is set up to make sure that there is an avenue and to see that judicial process usurped or worked around by a Minister because we have got someone with the skills on the board is not a practice we want to see made a constant practice. We do have concerns around that. It is not in our eyes the proper process. He may have the skills indeed to make the call but in terms of setting up the process so the people of Canterbury can have absolute confidence that if they do have issues and they do need to work through these water management issues and there is an appeal then having someone on the board itself who just happens to have those skills who has experience in the Environment Court is in our eyes not good enough.It needs to be a robust process. It needs to be a transparent process. In our eyes that is not robust and that is not transparent—just co-opting someone with those skills on to the board. Maybe the Minister in the chair may like to answer some of those questions.Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): I am happy to take another call on Part 3 of the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill and to pick up where my colleague Kris Faafoi finished off.In an earlier call on this part I asked the Minister in the chair the Hon Nick Smith some questions pertaining to the appeal rights that are contained in clauses 24 through 26 of this legislation and I have to say that the Minister’s response that it is OK because we are going to appoint judges to Environment Canterbury so you do not need to have appeals to the Environment Court was truly one of the most terrifying things I have heard said in this Chamber and I have heard many terrifying things. The idea that a Minister will stand in this Committee and say “We do not need robust appeal rights in a piece of legislation because we are going to make judges the people making the decisions.”—the whole point of appeal rights is that if you do not agree with the decision then there is a robust process of where you can take it from there. So I think we will keep asking questions of the Minister in the chair because this piece of legislation which we have wholeheartedly opposed from the very beginning seems to be getting worse and worse with the utterance of the Minister.The further question in terms of Part 3 that I would like to put to the Minister who is currently sitting in the chair Minister Goodhew is around the functions of what Environment Canterbury will do. What we are seeing in Part 3—the clauses that are through there—which is as close to the functions as the legislation gets and in schedule 3 which Part 3 refers to is that it is very much about the management of water in Canterbury. All through the passage of this legislation we have heard time and time again from the Minister the Hon Nick Smith that the whole basis of the need back in 2010 to throw out an elected council and put in place Government appointees was because of the Creech report which pointed to problems with the governance in Canterbury.I think that Part 3 is also notable for what it does not include and for what it does include. The only function that is talked about here is water management but the Creech report was not only about water management in Canterbury;it also pointed to another flaw in Environment Canterbury one that it said did need to have some attention paid to it. That was that it recommended a review of the transport functions of Environment Canterbury particularly matters of public transport given the concentration of transport functions in urban areas especially Christchurch within that body.People outside that area may not understand the very sliced and diced way that public transport operates in Canterbury. For the bus system for example within Christchurch City Environment Canterbury sets the routes but it is the job of the Christchurch City Council to place the bus stops. That is an authority delegated to community boards. So we have one body that decides where the buses are going to go and another one that has to deal with the infrastructure around those. It has long been our contention—and it was something that we did hear very much through the submission process on this bill—that it was not just these water functions in Part 3 that Cantabrians wanted. They also thought that if there was anything that was going to be happening in terms of us having an examination of the role of Environment Canterbury it should also include a functional examination and one of those functions should be ways in which we could have more integrated approaches to transport planning in our region.I think that when the Government talks about this being a piece of legislation that is required as part of the response to the regeneration of Christchurch there could be no greater need than to get integrated approaches to our transport planning and I think we see that around the edges where Christchurch City borders with other councils whether that be in Mr Doocey’s area of Waimakariri or over the border in Selwyn. We see that we have growing and pressing needs for urban development that is taking place outside the boundaries of Christchurch City and we see the need to have strong and stable public transport links to those. The fact that this bill does not address it that there is no function examination and that it is confined solely to water is something that we think—if you actually were going to do anything around Environment Canterbury taking the opportunity to do something truly progressive like looking at how it is that we could have public transport that was fit for the 21st century—JAN LOGIE (Green): I just rise to take a short call specifically addressing clauses 24 to 26 and the limitations on the right of appeal specifically for water conservation orders. In this bill it is saying that the community cannot appeal to the Environment Court. The only right of appeal that people will have after this bill passes is to the High Court on a point of law which is a very significant restriction of the right of appeal.I do want to address the Minister for the Environment’s response to concerns being raised about this where he said that we should not be worried about the reason for limiting the right of appeal because he would probably be appointing a judge—he mentioned Judge Skelton—to Environment Canterbury so that those environmental judicial skills would be on that board. This is not a repetition of the concerns around democracy but it is very closely aligned to them because we have core constitutional frameworks in this country: democracy and the rule of law and the independence of our courts. For the Minister to say “You don’t need a right of appeal because I’ve bought you a judge and I’m putting him on my council.” seems to me to be an extraordinary statement and an absolute erosion of our constitutional framework and one that really needs to be answered. I really do want to hear the Minister tell us that that is not what he meant because it is something I think that all New Zealanders should be deeply concerned about if they were to find out that a Minister is so cavalier about the importance of the independence of our courts as to think that he could buy that judge and put him on the decision-making panel and that we have no need for any scrutiny or independence. If that is not what he is saying how is he going to assure that independence on points beyond just points of law around the absolute rights that go to and the concerns that people normally take to the Environment Court?These are really really important issues for the people of Canterbury. It is about ensuring they have the same rights as everyone else in New Zealand and that our system is functioning effectively because that is why we set up our system with independent courts and a democracy: to be able to deliver for people in a way that we know works. It may not be the quickest decision-making. It may not result in decisions that we always agree with but we know that when we start eroding those systems we actually risk everything because it is what our society is founded on: those two core principles. It is deeply worrying to hear them compromised so blithely by the Minister.I would refer back to again the comment from the Law Society which was talking about those constitutional values and the unalterable fundamentals being our legal system and our democracy and the independence of that legal system and I do hope to hear the Minister stand up and correct us for how we all seem to have interpreted his statements.RINO TIRIKATENE (Labour—Te Tai Tonga): I am pleased to take a call on Part 3. I would like to return to what my colleague Mr Faafoi was explaining before with regard to the Canterbury Water Management Strategy. I believe that there is an internal inconsistency in the bill because the Minister for the Environment earlier mentioned that the Canterbury Water Management Strategy had no force in law yet a key part of that strategy—the vision and the principles—is expressed in this legislation in schedule 3. So in effect it does have the force of law because it is in the legislation. Although there is clause 19A(2) it is unclear because in my mind if the text of that particular Canterbury Water Management Strategy is in the legislation then it is law—it is law. It forms part of this piece of legislation. In my mind the Minister was quite misleading in terms of saying that it had a lesser relevance.I would like to turn to the actual body of those visions and principles because I think they are very relevant. In particular I would like to focus on the third clause of schedule 3 “Kaitiakitanga”. It is wonderful to see that “The exercise of kaitiakitanga by Ngai Tahu applies to all water and lakes rivers hapua waterways and wetlands and shall be carried out in accordance with tikanga Maori.” That is a wonderful primary principle that has been expressed in this legislation. As a result I actually think that that reinforces the standing that Ngāi Tahu has through its ability to appoint two appointees to Environment Canterbury. So I do commend that particular section of the vision and the mission.If we carry on down to clause5 of schedule 3 “Indigenous biodiversity” it says: “Indigenous flora and fauna and their habitats in rivers streams lakes groundwater and wetlands are protected and valued.” Again this is music to the ear of all mana whenua that the indigenous biodiversity is specifically recognised as a principle and that it actually forms part of the legislation. The point I am making is that although the Minister Nick Smith was in his words I believe demeaning the actual importance of these principles I believe the fact that these principles have been stated and have been included in this legislation elevates them. They have been elevated to being within the legislation—they are not just a mere document; they are actually in the body of the legislation and they form a critical part in the process of the freshwater plans and regional policy statements. I did not want to underplay the importance of those principles because they are a central part of the process.Really if we do look at Part 3 we are really getting to the guts of what this whole hybrid Environment Canterbury set-up is all about. Basically it is all about the freshwater plans and regional policy statements and everything to do with water. That is why this particular part of the legislation is only to do with that particular aspect. If we go back to what the Minister said there are eight water zones in the Environment Canterbury area. Only two have operative plans so that means that this successor—this newly created hybrid body—has another 3 years to complete the process in Part 3 that they will have to follow to get those six plans in place. That is a monumental task when you consider the difficulty—JAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip—National): I move That the question be now put.A party vote was called for on the question That the question be now put.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Motion agreed to.The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Dr Nick Smith to clause 19 be agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That the amendment be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Amendment agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Part 3 as amended agreed to.Part 4 Miscellaneous provisions and amendments to 2010 ActDr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): It is my pleasure to take a short call on Part 4. In particular I want to talk to clause 29 of the legislation which is “Matters relating to 2019 election”. In clause 29 it says “(1) To avoid doubt nothing in this Act prevents Environment Canterbury from taking any step that must be taken under the Local Electoral Act 2001 for the purposes of the 2019 election. (2) However Environment Canterbury must review its representation arrangements in accordance with section 19I of that Act irrespective of whether it would be mandatory for it to do so under the requirements of that section in relation to the 2019 election.”This comes to some of the core concerns that Labour has about this legislation. It is the “We’ve been here before” clause. Of course we have in the passage of this bill traversed the history of it: that elected members of Environment Canterbury were first sacked in 2010 and the Government made comments at the time saying that it might be as late as 2013 before we could have elected representatives back on Environment Canterbury. Then lo and behold the 2013 triennial elections started to roll around and there was more legislation extending it out for another 3 years. So this clause here clause 29 does not give us any certainty that we are returning to full elected representation in 2019.We heard the Hon Nick Smith earlier in the course of this Committee stage feigning some kind of outrage that the Hon Clayton Cosgrove had dared to question whether or not it had been the case—well he has got form. We have been here before—we have seen elections delayed and pushed out despite the reassurances that were given to the people of Canterbury—and throughout the course of this debate there has been an inconsistency and actually a lack of coherence in the logic that the Government has used in relation to this legislation and that is of course when its members bother to even try to defend taking away peoples’ democratic rights. It is quite stunning that you can sit through a whole Committee stage of a bill and not one Canterbury member of Parliament will get on their feet and defend the fact that the Government is taking away the right to vote in their region and continuing that loss of democracy in their region.What we have had is the Minister Nick Smith throughout this saying that it is OK because Labour did it. That seems to be the kind of catch-all that National tries to use for everything. He has used the example of district health boards he has pulled in the example of Kaipara and he is has pulled in the example of school boards that have been used in various places. But never ever have we had elections delayed for 9 years which is the case and is what is entrenched in clause 29 of this legislation. It was in 2010 that that council was first sacked. It would seem a long time if you had to wait a whole triennium to have it come into play at the next scheduled triennial election in 2013. That seemed massive to the people of Canterbury.Then there is the fact that that was pushed out by further legislation before that triennial election in 2013 and we are now having another push out of it but not a return to full democracy as Cantabrians were led to believe was going to be the case in 2010—a return to democracy by the time of the 2013 elections. And 6 years later we are debating here in this Committee tonight a clause of “Please Sir can we please have it for the 2019 elections?”. This is just absurd.I have no faith that this will actually take place. We have seen the Cabinet papers where the Ministry for Primary Industries is lobbying to have the current arrangement made permanent. This is not a temporary arrangement in the minds of many members of this Government. And if I am wrong I welcome a Government member taking a call on this putting our fears at ease and assuring us that there will indeed be no push to have this established as a permanent arrangement because we know there is an irrigation agenda in here. This is backed up by the fact that the Ministry for Primary Industries wants to see this as a permanent arrangement in Canterbury.So what we have is that the people of Canterbury should have no faith that even this mixed model governance structure is going to expire in 2019. We have heard it all before. We know that there is lobbying going on in the background and there is no certainty that there will be fully democratic elections held at the next elections in 2019. Thank you.EUGENIE SAGE (Green): Tēnā koe Mr Chair. Like Dr Woods I would like to see a response from National members and I think it is interesting that we have not heard any calls from National members other than the Minister in support of this bill and the only calls there have been have been to move closure motions. The reason for that is why would members of the National Party—particularly those members in Canterbury—take a call when they are here because they have been elected? They are here because people voted for them democratically so how could they defend a system that is in this bill where we have appointed rather than elected members around the council table? They know that they do not want to be accused of being hypocrites.In this call I would like to speak specifically to clause 27 “Environment Canterbury must report to responsible Ministers on management of fresh water”. They have got to report to the Minister of Local Government and the Minister for the Environment every 6 months in relation to progress on the Canterbury Land and Water Regional Plan progress on other plans relating to the management of fresh water and progress on the implementation of the Canterbury Water Management Strategy. If anyone was in any doubt that this bill was about controlling the management of water in Canterbury this clause should remove that. Environment Canterbury has a wide range of functions for the management of natural resources—for the coast for air for natural hazards for transport planning in the region and for the management of pests—yet the only provision where the council is required to report to the Minister is in relation to water. So that shows that all the Minister’s arguments about needing continuity and about providing effective leadership somehow do not apply to all of the other responsibilities of the regional council—only to water. So yes this is about water.It will be interesting to see what the Minister is interested in having reports from the council on. Will he—or she—be interested in how many more rivers and lakes are unswimmable? Will they be interested in the fact that the headwater streams of the Ōtākaro—or the Avon River—are drying up? Will they be interested in the fact that the species that depend on the braided rivers in Canterbury like the Rākaia and the Rangitata—all the wrybills and the black-fronted tern—are in deep trouble? Will they be interested in the snapshot of the state of the rivers that one submitter presented just looking at incidents in October and November that identified six rivers in South Canterbury where there were problems with toxic benthic cyanobacteria mats and where Environment Canterbury was warning that river users should avoid the areas because of those mats from the Ōpihi to the Temuka River and to the Pareora—will the Ministers be interested in those reports? I do not think so. I think they will be more interested in the amount to which irrigation is proposed to be expanded in upcoming years because of their emphasis on subsidising irrigation and using that to promote extensive dairying. And yet in Canterbury we have a major decline in water quality which Environment Canterbury has comprehensively failed to report on.Under an elected council we had a very detailed and comprehensive state of the environment report released in 2009. Under the appointed commissioners we have had only a snapshot of their progress in meeting the targets of the Canterbury Water Management Strategy. But that was enough to show that there is a continuing decline. In lowland spring-fed streams—on the plains for example—in 2010 around 40 percent of those streams were in poor or very poor health in terms of the aquatic ecosystems but in 2014 that had increased to 67 percent. We have got the Canterbury medical officer of health warning midwives in the Ashburton area to discourage new parents from bottle-feeding babies using bore water because of the risk of blue baby syndrome and nitrate levels interfering with the uptake of oxygen in the blood. The Minister in the chair Jo Goodhew is shaking her head but those warnings have been issued by the medical officer of health and they were widely reported at the time.At the same time that we have had water quality decreasing in Canterbury we have also had an increase in non-compliance. Will the Ministers under clause 27 be interested in Environment Canterbury’s role in enforcement? Recently the Press reported that nearly one in five water users were guilty of significant non-compliance in relation to their water takes from streams rivers and aquifers. Either they were taking more than they were permitted to by their consent conditions or they were taking when restrictions applied. So 355 irrigators were significantly non-compliant yet how many prosecutions did Environment Canterbury undertake? It issued only nine infringement and abatement notices. Water quality is declining yet Environment Canterbury under the commissioners is failing to enforce the Resource Management Act requirements adequately.In relation to things like transport it is really disappointing that this provision does not require reporting on the other of Environment Canterbury’s responsibilities. It is one of the reasons why we believe that elected councillors would do a better job in areas like transport because they would be much more responsive to their communities. We have seen a major decline in patronage of bus services under the commissioners. Some of that was due to the earthquakes but they have failed to take action in an innovative way to encourage patronage. We have had media reports recently where we have had a further decline in patronage and what are the commissioners proposing to do? Increase the fares which is likely to lead to more decline in passenger numbers and this is with a council that was once responsible for one of the most accessible and cost-effective bus systems in the whole of Australasia before commissioners were appointed.So we would like to see the Environment Canterbury commissioners having to report to the Ministers on their other functions and not just on fresh water but the fact that this clause focuses on fresh water highlights once again that this bill is all about water and the promotion of irrigation. Thank you.DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First): This legislation will be repealed under clause 6 after the 2019 election and by then Environment Canterbury will have had to have decided under clause 29 in this part of the bill what wards it will have and how many councillors per ward it will have and whatever other arrangements will be necessary for the election to then take place for the 3-year term following the 3 years under this bill. But when you look at clause 29(2) it says “Environment Canterbury must review”. That means that all members of Environment Canterbury must be carrying out that review and that will include the six appointed members.I think that it is most inappropriate for appointed members whose purpose is to be there—as we have heard repeatedly from the Minister—just to look after water issues to then be deciding what representation arrangements will be made for the next 3 years under which all of the Environment Canterbury members will be elected. That is a most inappropriate provision and it clearly shows that this Government has not properly thought out this legislation because I cannot believe that it will have deliberately wanted it to happen.If it did then those members are out of their tiny minds because it is not appropriate for people who are appointed to look after the water issues under this bill and for 3 years following the 2016 elections to be then taking part in the determination of what will happen for the fully elected term after that. It is just very very bad law altogether. We have got a situation where not only are those appointed members going to be usurping the role of what should be fully elected members for the 3 years in question but in this bill they are going to usurp the role of an elected council to determine what the representation situation will be after that. I could not think of anything more inappropriate.Another point about that is we are told the whole point of the appointment of people to Environment Canterbury is so that we would have the right skills there. I read out in an earlier speech the skills that were required and they all relate to water issues and so on. But actually none of those skills are applicable to making a decision under clause 29(2) of this bill in relation to future representation arrangements for Environment Canterbury.Clause 29(2) is a disgrace. It should not be in this bill. Members opposite should acknowledge that delay this bill and make sure that that clause is redrafted completely. That is really what is required. It is disgraceful it is badly thought out and in fact the entire bill is disgraceful and badly thought out.A party vote was called for on the question That Part 4 be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Part 4 agreed to.Schedule 1A party vote was called for on the question That schedule 1 be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Schedule 1 agreed to.Schedule 2The question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Nick Smith to schedule 2 be agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That the amendment be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Amendment agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Schedule 2 as amended agreed to.Schedule 3A party vote was called for on the question That schedule 3 be agreed to.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Schedule 3 agreed to.Clauses 1 and 2Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour—Wigram): I would like to take a call and in the time-honoured tradition talk specifically to the title of this bill. The title that the Government has given this bill the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill just seems a little bit absurd. We are now debating whether we should have bespoke governance arrangements in place for Canterbury for 9 years. The Government thinks this is a transitional arrangement. Where I come from nearly a decade is not a transition. We call that semi-permanent if not permanent. I think the “Continued Denial of Democracy Bill” would be a better title for this bill rather than the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill. I think “Nine Years is Not a Transition Bill” would be another alternative title that we could give—Kris Faafoi: Nine long years.Dr MEGAN WOODS: The “Nine Long Years Bill” could be another alternative title that we could give this bill. But in all seriousness I would not like to be flippant about this because this is very serious. This is just an affront to people that they have had their votes taken away from them for 9 years. The fact is that there is now a different model of democracy that operates in Canterbury.I think as people who are democratically elected for us to be saying that things can be a little bit democratic is frightening. We are democratically elected members of this House and we should be the very people who stand up for democracy. We should not just say that it is OK for a Minister to appoint people to govern a region and make it different from other parts of the country. Not only does the Minister have the power to appoint; the Minister has the power to remove and the Government has weakened the appeal rights contained in the bill. This is a truly frightening piece of government to be enacted by any Parliament.We will continue our opposition to this arrangement after the passage of this bill. I have a member’s bill in my name that will be staying in the ballot. The title of that bill is the restoration of democracy in Canterbury bill and I have my fingers crossed every time we have a ballot of members’ bills that that bill gets drawn and we could return to fully democratic elections in Canterbury.To call this a transitional governance arrangement bill is just not fair. I think another title that the Government could go back to is the “Canterbury Experimentation (Part 3) Bill”. That is what is being done to the people of Canterbury. When the Government cannot get across its own Resource Management Act reforms because it cannot get the support of its coalition partners it thinks: “Oh I know. Let’s see if we can try it out in Canterbury. They won’t mind.” So that is where we have it. We have a whole lot of bespoke provisions in here that make us different from the rest of the country. We have traversed many of these through the course of this Committee stage and I would not like to traverse them again. But to say that this is some kind of transitional arrangement is just not something that any elected member should be able to stand up and say with any level of credibility.Maybe that is why we are not hearing from the Government members from Canterbury. Maybe that is why they are content to sit there voting away the full democratic rights of their fellow Cantabrians and not utter a word. I imagine there are a number of people who elected those members to this House who are truly disappointed that their elected members are willing to sit silent as democracy is watered down by those members.It is not good enough to call this a transitional arrangement. The Government has not made the case for why Canterbury should be treated any differently. The Government has dressed it up in a raft of different measures. It has tried to say that it is about our regeneration of Christchurch yet we see that none of the things that would actually help our city regenerate are covered off in this bill.This is a bill purely and simply about the Government needing to push across the line its irrigation agenda and it is about water in Canterbury. The bill should be called the “Canterbury Water Bill” or alternatively it should be called the “We’ve Run Out of Ideas Bill”. This is a bill that belongs in the 20th century. It is not a piece of legislation that is fit for our future as a region. Stripping away people’s right to vote imposing a bias towards a particular mode of land use—all these things are not what belong in the Canterbury of the 21st century. It is a disappointing piece of legislation. It is disappointing—EUGENIE SAGE (Green): Tēnā koe Mr Chair. Like others I think this bill is a nonsense. It is an abominable piece of legislation and Parliament should be ashamed of passing it because representative democracy is a fundamental principle that gives legitimacy to the Government and to the exercise of State power and yet in this bill it is totally undermined. So a better title would be the “Suppression of Local Democracy Bill” or the “Strong Arm of the State Bill” because this Government through this bill shows that it does not trust the citizens of Canterbury to elect a competent regional council.Another title would be the “Ignore the Public Bill” because remember there were only 15 out of 1169 submissions that supported this bill. There was strong public opposition. That opposition to the axing of elected councillors has been expressed in many ways in Canterbury. One of them is that cairn of stones—I and many others took stones from the beds of Canterbury rivers and added them to the cairn. The cairn stood there through all of the Canterbury earthquakes while the statues of Godley and others fell over. The cairn remains a symbol of the loss of democracy in Canterbury of the taking of water and of the putting of irrigation and the expansion of irrigated land ahead of protecting the health of Canterbury’s rivers and aquifers.This bill is an affront to democracy. We cannot claim to be a free and democratic society if we compromise with this second-class model where Ministers continue to appoint commissioners and where the bill truncates appeal rights and sidelines the specialist jurisdiction of the Environment Court in terms of making decisions on appeals on regional plans and the Canterbury Regional Policy Statement. It is an “Affront to Democracy Bill” because it imposes in Canterbury a different form of law to that which applies in other regions by truncating these appeal rights.It is a model that is not accountable because nearly half of those sitting around the table will be reporting to the Minister rather than to Cantabrians. It is a Wellington-controlled model plain and simple. So that is another title—the “Wellington-controlled Council Bill”. And it is certainly not a transitional governance arrangement because we are about to mourn the sixth anniversary of the loss of an elected council and by the time this legislation is repealed there will have been 9 long years without a fully elected council.As the Christchurch City Council highlighted in its submission it was very concerned that this hybrid model would reduce effective open and transparent processes rather than provide the stability that the Government claims. We have seen a precedent being set here with the Government interfering with the processes and decision making of local councils through being able to appoint more commissioners. Nobody wants this as a precedent.Local Government New Zealand expressed significant concern about the bill. It said—and I would like to conclude with a quote from its submission—that it highlighted that local government representatives should not be required to have specialist expertise or skills. Rather their role is to “set the direction resolve differences over values and set priorities and most of all supervise management.”That is what local government and local democracy is all about. It is about people electing councillors who can make decisions on how the taxes that they contribute through rates are actually spent. It is about being accountable to local communities. This bill by imposing Government appointees on Cantabrians totally distrusts local government and highlights once again the Government’s failure to respect the ability of Cantabrians to elect competent people. It gives greater weight to voters in rural areas by giving them better representation.I totally endorse the point that Denis O’Rourke was making in terms of having these appointed members actually setting the representation for the council post-2019—that likely provisions around the plans will continue the influence of the Government and the influence of appointed members well beyond 2019. That is a totally distasteful element of this bill which is an abominable piece of legislation that the Green Party will continue to oppose.CLARE CURRAN (Labour—Dunedin South): Before I speak on the title and commencement clauses can I just acknowledge my colleagues Megan Woods Eugenie Sage and Denis O’Rourke for the heavy lifting they have done on this bill in the Committee tonight.An alternative title for this bill should be the “Environment Canterbury Entrenchment of Anti-democracy Bill”. This is a frightening piece of legislation—an absolutely frightening piece of legislation. Nobody on that side of the Chamber—unless they are prepared to get up take a call and argue this—should actually have anything to say about it. Notice that they have all been completely quiet about it.This is a frightening piece of legislation. It is a frightening piece of legislation on a number of levels and I want to speak to some of them when addressing the title and commencement clauses.My biggest concern—and I think Megan Woods actually alluded to this at one point during the debate tonight—is about this being a pilot project that could be used for other regional councils as to how the governance arrangement of regional councils could be. The Minister for the Environment has made it very clear tonight that the district health board model of governance that has been imposed on regional government through this Environment Canterbury bill is a viable model that could be used and implemented in other spheres in other parts of the country. I think that is the chilling effect of this legislation and this bill is a warning essentially to any other regional council in New Zealand that dares to get out of line and to speak out of linethat this model which is this mixed-model governance of appointed and elected people could be imposed upon it.Under the district health board model which was brought in in a completely different environment it is funded by the distribution of taxation at the national level. Instead here we have regional government. New Zealand does not have that many levels of government. We are not like Australia where you have federal Government you have states and then you have regional and city councils. We have a very small number of tiers of government. We do not have two Houses in our Parliament; we have one House in our Parliament. Therefore our levels of government are extremely important and we should treat them with respect but we are not. This Government is not treating the regional level of government with respect.What the fear is with this bill is that this will be used as a model that could be imposed in other areas and I think that is something that everybody should be really afraid of. It sends an unsubtle message to other councils that they may suffer the same fate if they oppose the Government. Transitional legislation was not needed—it was not needed. It is 9 years this will end up being for. This is not transition; this is actually entrenchment which is why the alternative title that I have suggested is the “Entrenchment of Anti-democracy Bill”. This is not transition; it is entrenchment.The public sentiment was very strong and another point that was made during the debate tonight was around the skill sets of the appointed people. The point that my colleague David Parker made was that if the Government was so keen on those skill set there could be encouragement for those people to be standing for elected positions. If it is the case that the only way that we can get the right skill sets into our levels of government is that you have to appoint them—DENIS O’ROURKE (NZ First): I do not think that this title is at all accurate as a descriptor for this particular bill and I have got three suggestions any one of which would I think be better. The first one is “ECan’t be Democratic under this Government Bill” because that is the reality. It is a hybrid and it is not a democratic proposal for the governance of Canterbury at all. I mean it is absolutely obvious that you cannot be half pregnant and you cannot be half democratic. So what is the point in having this window dressing of having some elected people and some appointed ones? It is not going to be democratic as a result of that. I do not think that the current title is at all accurate nor is it actually transitional—it does not describe anything transitional at all. All it describes is yet another model for the Government’s dominance of Environment Canterbury. It has got one currently. This is a new one and there will not be any democracy until after 2019. So how can that be transitional? It is not. It is just weasel word and it should not be there.The second suggestion I have for a title is “Government’s Arrangements for Its Interest in Canterbury’s Environment Amendment Bill” because that is really what the bill is about. When you consider why the Government is doing it it is doing it to make sure that what it wants to achieve is what will happen in Canterbury for another 3 years. Again that is not democratic and in particular it is not a way in which the desires and aspirations of the peopleof Canterbury for the environment could possibly be met. This is because the Government is going to appoint members whose only interest is to serve the Government’s interests and the elected people will have a hard job with the six appointed representatives in actually trying to achieve what the people of Canterbury want for their own region. For that reason I also say that it is a very inappropriate title and it should reflect the fact that this is just what the Government wants. So “Government’s Arrangements for Its Interests in Canterbury’s Environment Amendment Bill” would be much more accurate.Lastly my third suggestion is “A Failed Attempt at Environment Canterbury Governance Arrangements Act 2015”. I think the word “failed” would be appropriate. I say that because it is absolutely inevitable that this model will fail; it does not matter how you judge it. Will it represent the aspirations and desires of the people of Canterbury for their environment? No because the Government will see to it that it cannot through its appointed representatives. It does not matter that it is six against seven—it is close enough for that to be the effect. Will it actually mean that the Canterbury Water Management Strategy will be any better under this bill? No it will not because it is already going to be entrenched in the bill which does not need any appointed members to do that. It is good that it will be entrenching the Canterbury Water Management Strategy because that will underpin everything that the new councils do in the future. Whatever rules and whatever regulations the councils make must be consistent with that strategy. That was well and properly done but the appointed members’ role in achieving that is well and truly over and it is time for elected people to say what should happen in the future in terms of that strategy in Canterbury.No mixed system of both elected and appointed people can ever work effectively because there will be that them-and-us approach that will take root and it will never stop. It is going to mean a dysfunctional council I believe and not one that the people of Canterbury will have any hope that it will actually improve their environment. So any one of those three titles I would be happy with but certainly not the one that we have got here.JAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip—National): I move That the question be now put.RINO TIRIKATENE (Labour—Te Tai Tonga): Kia ora Mr Chair. I am very pleased to speak on the title and commencement clauses. This will be my final contribution in the Committee stage I would imagine.I do want to return to the very first point that I made earlier today and that was the significance of the mound of stones that is there in Cathedral Square. That cairn was erected as a memorial by the people of Canterbury to mark their sense of loss at the fact that their democratic rights were stripped from them when the Environment Canterbury councillors were all sacked back in 2010. That cairn—that pile of stones—marks the loss of democracy and it is actually more relevant now than it was back in 2010 because here we are 6 years down the track and that mound of stones is still there. So as a suggested new title I would propose that we rename this bill the “Environment Canterbury (The Cairn Still Stands) Bill” because that cairn represents the loss of democracy and it will not be removed—it will not be removed—until full democracy is restored to the people of Canterbury.I know that this bill creates a sort of hybrid of councillors—half are elected and half are appointees from the Minister—but again that is not good enough. That will not open the way for the removal of that cairn because half is not whole. The people of Canterbury erected that structure as a landmark for everyone to see and to remember that their rights were taken away. So half is not good enough. I am sure that in those stones which were collected from all of the rivers around the Canterbury region there might be some good hāngi stones—I am sure that there are—but perhaps when democracy is restored those stones could be used for another purpose to celebrate the restoration of the democracy for the people of Canterbury.Another point that I did make was the appointment by Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu of two appointees or the recommendation to the Minister of two appointees who will go through on to this new transitional body—I actually do support that. I think it sets a very exciting precedent that mana whenua representation can go direct to the actual council level and be equal on a par with and level with councillors at the regional council table. I think that is an exciting development.I am going to be interested to know what will happen after 3 years and whether Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu will still have those rights and will still have a level of representation at that level for mana whenua so the words “mana whenua” could be another addition to the title. The bill could be the “Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements with Mana Whenua Representation) Bill” with those words included in the title as well because as I have mentioned that is a significant development.I know that iwi up and down the country will be looking at and studying this piece of legislation very closely because I know that they all have very very deep concerns about their natural environment. If it is good enough for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu to lead the way well certainly I know that iwi up and down the country will want to follow suit as well and they will be expecting more from the Minister—they will be expecting the Minister to deliver accordingly.The Minister mentioned that we are continuing on in this transitional phase with denying the people of Canterbury their full democratic rights because effectively we need six more water zones to be put in place—the actual planning processes and the planned zones or whatever the vernacular is for the resource management speakers. That needs to be put in place and so I would encourage as a final title—JAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip—National): I move That the question be now put.A party vote was called for on the question That the question be now put.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Motion agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That clause 1 stand part.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Clause 1 agreed to.A party vote was called for on the question That clause 2 stand part.Ayes 63New Zealand National 59; Māori Party 2; ACT New Zealand 1; United Future 1.Noes 58New Zealand Labour 32; Green Party 14; New Zealand First 12.Clause 2 agreed to.Bill to be reported with amendment presently.Te Pire mō Te Reo Māori / Māori Language BillIn CommitteeThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): Before we commence debate on this bill there are several procedural matters that I want to comment on. Firstly the title and commencement clauses of this bill are contained in Part 1AA. The debate on this part will be taken first and there will be no concluding title and commencement clause debate. The second matter relates to the dual-language nature of the bill. As you will be aware the Te Reo Māori and English texts of this bill have equal authority. Neither text is to be considered a translation of the other though they are intended to be equivalent in meaning. I will recognise this in the conducting of the Committee’s consideration of the bill. For the purposes of debate the Te Reo Māoriand English text for each part will be taken together. Hence the question for the first part will be that Te Wāhanga tahi AA—that is Part 1AA—and that Part 1AA stand part.I note that separate amendments to the two texts are possible. The Minister’s Supplementary Order Paper 164 amends Te Reo Māori text for Part 1AA but does not amend the English text as there are matters requiring amendment in one but not the other. Recognising that the two texts are separate the votes on the two texts will be taken separately.Further because the two texts of the bill are of equal authority amendments that are in one language are not automatically treated as amending the other text of the bill. If a substantive amendment is to be agreed to by the Committee it is highly desirable that the text in both Te Reo Māori and English is agreed to. If it appears likely that the amendment that is proposed in only one language is not to be agreed to by the Committee the Minister may wish to postpone further consideration of the part under Standing Order 303(1)(d) and (4) to allow time for the amendment to be drafted in the other language. For that further amendment to be tabled the alternative is to have a bill that may be deficient in one of the language versions.JAMI-LEE ROSS (Junior Whip—National): I seek leave for all parts of this bill to be considered as one debate and voted on separately of course.The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Chester Borrows): Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.Te Wāhanga 1AA Ko te ingoa me ngā whakataunga tīmatanga i Te Reo MāoriPart 1AA Title and commencement provisions in EnglishHon TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki):Mr Chair tēnā koe kia ora tātau o Te Whare. Me pēnei te kī hei wāwāhi i wā tātau kōrero nō te ata nei i tae atu au ki Hiruhārama te wāhi e takoto nei tērā o ngā matakahi o te mahi pāpāho a Whai Ngata ki te tuku roimata ki a ia. Ko ia tērā i ārahi nei i ngā kaupapa mahi ā-pāpāho. Ko tāku hei wāwāhi i wā tātau kōrero i tēnei pō he tuku i ngā poroporoāki ki a ia. Me te kī e Whai kua ea te wāhi ki a koe. Oti pai i a koe ngā mahi katoa i a koe e takatū ana i te mata o te whenua. Ko Te Reo Māori ki te pūtake o ngā mahi katoa i roto i ngā mahi pāpāho. Nō reira ko koe ko koutou ko Hone Kaa mā te hunga kua ngaro atu i te tirohanga kanohi e moe e moe e moe.Ka hoki mai ki a tātau e hoa mā huri noa i tō tātau Whare tēnā koutou tēnā koutou kia ora tātau katoa. I tuku au i tētahi kōrero ki tēnei tangata ki a Whai Ngata i te mea ko ia tērā i kawe nei i ngā kaupapa o te Television New Zealand?Ā tērā wāhi. Ka mutu i roto i wāna mahi katoa i tuhi ia i tētahi pukapuka Reo Māori he papakupu. Ka mutu nāna anō rā nā rātau ko Ernie Leonard mā ko Tini Fox mā i tīmata nei i ngā kaupapa pēnei i a Te Karere a Waka Huia a Koha te tīmatanga mai o te mahi nei o te pāpāho i Te Reo Māori ki runga i te pouaka whakaata.Nō reira i whai wāhi au mō te wā poto ki te kōrero ki a ia me te tuku i te roimata ki a ia ko ia tērā kua riro ka tahi ka rua e tātau mā me mihi au ki a koutou katoa mō te ātaahua o wā tātau kōrero i te pānuitanga tuarua. Kātahi nei au ka rongo tuatahi ko ngā mea mōhio ki te kōrero Māori ngā mea e ako nei i Te Reo Māori ngā mea paku nei te mōhio ki Te Reo Māori ēngari i kawe haerehia katoatia ngā mahi i roto i Te Reo Māori. Katoa o tātau i whakaae atu ki te tino pūtake o tēnei o ngā pire ka mutu tino mīharo au ki te āhuatanga o wā tātau nohotahi. Kotahi tonu ngā whakaaro mō te ātaahua mō te aronga o tēnei o ngā pire. Me mihi rā ki a koutou ka tika.Ka toru me kī ko tēnei pire he tīmatanga hōu ki taku titiro. Koinā te wawata koinā te tūmanako. He whakakotahi nei i Te Karauna me Te Iwi Māori ko Te Reo Māori te painga ake. He nohotahi o Te Karauna me Te Iwi Māori he wāhi ki a tāua ki Te Ao Māori ā kaitiaki mō tō tātau reo. He ārahi i ngā kaupapa o Te Reo Māori ka mutu kua whakatūria anō hoki ko Te Mātāwai. Ko tāna mahi he whakatinana i ngā wawata o Te Ao Māori. Ko te wāhi ki Te Karauna ā he whakaora anō rā i tō tātau reo. Ēngari kua āhua whāiti tonu tana titiro. Hoi anō nā runga i tēnei āhuatanga o te nohotahi kotahi te kaupapa. He whakanui nei i te āhuatanga o te hunga e kōrero Māori ana i te mata o te whenua.Me tika te whakatū o Te Mātāwai i te mea 13 pea ngā tāngata ka noho nei i Te Mātāwai. Ka mutu ki te hē i reira ā kua raruraru katoa. Me whai wāhi te wahine me whai wāhi te hunga e mōhio nei ki te whakarite rautaki mō Te Reo Māori. Kia kaua e kimi noa ake te hunga e kōrero Māori ana he painga anō rā o tērā ēngari me kimi i te hunga e matatau ana ki te āhuatanga o tēnei mea o te whakahaere i ngā kaupapa whakaora i Te Reo Māori. Nō reira ā kāti me pērā rawa te kōrero mō ngā wāhanga ō roto ko te reo tukutuku tāku e kōrero nei. Me pērā rawa anō hoki te āhuatanga o te whakahaere.Nā ko tēnei pire kai tōna pūtake ko Te Reo Māori te reo taketake o tēnei whenua. He taonga Te Reo Māori ki te iwi Māori ki a Ngāi Māori whānui tonu atu te tikanga ia he taonga nō tēnei whenua. Me whakanui i a ia me whakamana i a ia. Mā tēnei pire kāre he rerekētanga o tāna noho motuhake nei i tēnei whenua. Nō reira ka pai hoki ka pai hoki. Ka pai tōna hanga i tēnei wā ēhara i te mea kai te whakaiti ēngari me whakanui i te āhuatanga o tēnei o ngā pire.Ko tētahi wāhanga nui whakaharahara kua whakahokia mai tēnei i roto i Te Reo Māori me te reo Pākehā. He mea nui tērā. Ēhara i te mea he wā tuatahi ēngari i roto i tēnei kaupapa ko Te Reo ka whai mana mēnā ka noho tukituki ngā reo e rua nei ko Te Reo Māori. Kai reira tonu te kaupapa nui.He āhua pērā tonu te tikanga ki Te Tiriti o Waitangi Reo Māori reo Pākehā mēnā ka tukituki ko Te Reo te tikanga ko te mea whai mana ko tērā ka tuhia i Te Reo Māori. Ēngari waiho tērā kōrero mō te wā. Ko tēnei kaupapa ko Te Reo Māori koirā te mea whai mana. Hāunga ko te āhuatanga o Te Ture mō Mokomoko (Hei Whakahoki i te Ihi te Mana me te Rangatiratanga) 2013; i whakahokia Reo Māori mai tērā pire ki roto i tēnei Whare Pāremata ēngari mēnā ka puta te tohe ko te mea whai mana ē ko te mea i tuhia i te reo Pākehā. Ēngari anō tēnei e kāo! E kāo! Ko Te Reo Māori te mea whai mana.Nō reira nei au e tū nei ki te whakahīhī mō te āhuatanga o ngā mahi kua oti nei i ngā āpiha otirā ko taku rōpū i haere i te mata o te whenua ka mutu ki Te Komiti Whāiti Māori nā ki te tiamana otirā ki ngā ringa raupā o tō tātau komiti i mahitahi nei kia tutuki pai tēnei kaupapa. Nō reira me pēnei pea hai whakatinana anō hoki i tētahi wāhanga o te pire hōu arā kua puta te kōrero o roto i ētahi tāpiritanga i raro i taku īngoa. Me kī he whakaaetanga mō ngā pēhitanga i rongo nei i Te Ao Māori i ngā tau kua hipa ake. I puta te kōrero i te mata o te whenua ko ētahi i Te Tai Tokerau tonu. Ē i wepua ētahi o ngā tamariki i te wā i a rātau e tamariki ana mō te kōrero i Te Reo Māori. I roto i tētahi pepa āpitihanga i tēnei pō arā anō tētahi kōrero e mea ana ko Te Kāwanatanga āe i hē rawa atu! I te hē tērā āhuatanga! Ēngari ko tāna ko te kī atu āe kua eke ki te wā kia mahitahi Te Karauna me Te Iwi Māori mō te oranga o tō tātau reo. Ka mutu ko te wāhanga tuatoru me titiro ki tētahi rautaki mō ngā rā kai mua i te aroaro. Koinei au e kī nei ko te wāhi ki Te Karauna he whakarite nei i tōna ake rautaki mō Te Reo Māori mō ngā tari o Te Kāwanatanga tērā ka whakapūmau. Ēngari me whakarite anō rā Te Ao Māori i tōna ake huarahi mā Te Mātāwai tērā e whakatinana.Nō reira kāre e kore ka kōrerohia tēnei take mō te kupu whakaū te kupu whakaū ka kōrerohia i te pō nei i te mea kua rongo ake ā arā anō ētahi pepa kai mua i te aroaro. Ēngari ko tāku ko te kī atu he tīmatanga pai tēnei o ngā āhuatanga. He tīmatanga pai me te mōhio anō hoki he nui ngā mahi kai mua i te aroaro. Me pērā rawa te kōrero! Nō reira koinei ētahi tīmatanga me kī whakatakotoranga kōrero ki mua i a tātau. Ki taku mōhio kua eke tēnei pire ki tōna taumata. Taihoa ake nei nā runga i te āhuatanga o ngā kōrero ka puta i te pō nei kua mōhio mai au ko ngā nawe ko ngā uauatanga ko ngā whakaaro a tēnā a tēnā. Koinei te painga ake kia noho nei tātau ki te wānanga ki te wānanga i tō tātau reo. Nō reira koinā tētahi tīmatanga kōrero e Te Tiamana mō tātau i tēnei pō. Ka whakairia tērā kaupapa ki reira tēnā koutou kia ora tātau katoa.[Mr Chair thank you and greetings to everyone in the Chamber. I would like to begin our debate by mentioning that this morning I arrived at Hiruhārama to mourn the passing of the ground-breaking broadcaster Whai Ngata who is currently there lying in state. He was at the forefront of Māori broadcasting. I open our debate tonight by acknowledging him and saying to him my friend Whai rest in peace. You achieved everything you set out to do in this world. Māori language was the premise of all your undertakings in broadcasting. And so I say to you and all of you Hone Kaa and others to all our dearly departed rest in peace rest in peace.Returning to us presently fellow members indeed everyone gathered here in our Chamber greetings greetings one and all. I mention this man Whai Ngata as it was he who championed the issues in the department of—what is the Māori name again for Television New Zealand? There anyway. Wherever he worked he would write a Māori language book a lexicon. Moreover it was he and Ernie Leonard Tini Fox and others who were the vanguard of Māori language broadcasting on television through programmes such asTe Karere Waka Huia and Koha. It is only fitting for me to take a brief moment to acknowledge him and his passing.Secondly members I need to acknowledge all of you for the heartfelt contributions at the second reading. It is the first time I have heard both fluent Māori speakers learners of Māori language and those with a rudimentary knowledge of Māori carry the entire proceedings in the Māori language. We all agreed with the premise of this bill. I was particularly impressed at our common consensus and sense of purpose regarding this bill. It is only appropriate for me to thank and acknowledge all of you.Thirdly in my view it could be said that this bill is a new beginning. At least that is the hope and expectation: to bring the Crown and Māoridom together for the benefit oftheMāori language. In bringing the Crown and Māoridom together we as Māori have a guardianship responsibility for the language and to guide Māori language - related issues; the Te Mātāwai entity will be accordingly established. Its task will be to give substance to Māori aspirations. The Crown’s responsibility is to also revive our language but it has become too narrowly focused. It is hoped that through rejuvenated coordination and a single focus speaking Māori throughout the country can be encouraged.The Te Mātāwai entity needs to be well established as it will have a membership of some 13 sitting members. If we do not get that right then the whole thing could go downhill. Women should be represented as should Māori language strategy experts. Representatives should not be sought based purely on their ability to speak Māori; although that certainly has its benefits experience in Māori language revitalisation should be paramount. This however needs to be reiterated and in particular I refer here to the Māori stakeholder group cluster; similarly for the management and administration.The premise of this bill is that the Māori language is the indigenous language of this land. Māori language is a treasure to the Māori people and to all of Māoridom. It is also supposed to be a treasure for the whole nation and should be celebrated and treated accordingly. This bill in no way changes its unique status in the nation whichshould be commended and rightfully so. It is looking good at this point and rather than downplay the significance indeed the importance of this billit should be deservedly acknowledged.Of significant importance is the fact that this bill has been returned in both Māori language and English. This is very important. It is not the first time but it is for this particular cause empowering Māori language and should any inter-lingual discrepancy arise it will also be determined in Māori language. This is the bigger picture. Likewise with the Treaty of Waitangi as a bilingual document by right any inter-lingual discrepancy should be resolved based on the Māori text that aside and for this purpose the Māori language will take precedence. Notwithstanding the Mokomoko (Restoration of Character Mana and Reputation) Act 2013; that bill was returned to the House in the Māori language however if any language discrepancy arose then the written English text would take precedence. This on the other hand is different whereby that is not the case. The Māori language text will take precedence here.Therefore I am proud to stand here on behalf of the work completed by the officials by my advisory groupwho travelled the country and just as equally the efforts of the Māori Affairs Committee and its chairman and the many tireless hands of our select committeewho worked together to bring this to fruition. In order to add substance to one aspect of the new bill Supplementary Order Paper 164 in my name raises an acknowledgment of the oppression experienced by Māori over the years. It was reported that throughout the country including in thefarnorth children received corporal punishment for speaking in the Māori language. In a Supplementary Order Paper this evening reference is made to the Government being clearly in the wrong. Indeed it should never have happened. However what it is also saying is yes we have arrived at a stage where the Crown and Māoridom can work together for the rejuvenation of our language. The third part looks at a strategy for the future. This is why I stipulate that the Crown will have responsibility to prepare its own strategy for Māori language including setting a standard for the public sector. Simultaneously Māoridom should also prepare its own strategy of which it shall be for the Te Mātāwai entity to bring to fruition.No doubt this issue of a formal acknowledgment will be debated this evening. As I have heard there are other papers before us. What I will say however is that thisisa good starting point given the enormity of the task that lies ahead. Therefore one could say this is just the beginning and these are the first lines. I believe this bill has reached its peak or at least it will have pending our debate here tonight and any issues difficulties concerns or feedback that come up in each contribution. This really is an ideal situation for us all to consider our language collectively. Therefore Mr Chair my appreciation to you for allowing me to open our debate this evening. I leave that matter there with my acknowledgments to you and to us all collectively.]PEENI HENARE (Labour—Tāmaki Makaurau):Tēnā koe e Te Heamana. Hoi anō tāku i te tuatahi e tautoko atu ana i ngā mihi ki ngā tini aituā e takahia nei i te ara whānui ki Te Pō. Rātau e takoto mai ana ki runga i ngā marae maha i tēnei wā puta noa haere haere haere.Kia whakahokia mai ngā rārangi kōrero ki a tātau i te pito ora tēnā koutou. E Te Minita pai te whakarongo atu ki tō kōrero hai tīmata ake i tō tātau wānanga me kī. Te tāhae ake i tō kupu e kīia nei he “wānanga” tēnei. Kia kaua tātau e pōhēhē mā te mahi ngātahi anā koinā ka tere te kārohirohi ki mua i a tātau me wā tātau mahi i te pō nei. Ēngari ko te kī atu nā roto i te mahitahi ko te totohe ko te wānanga kei konei tātau i te pō nei. Nō reira e mihi atu ana.E Te Minita kai roto i ngā kōrero o tēnei taha ngā āhuatanga e tautoko ana i ngā kōrero ētahi o ngā kōrero kai roto i te pire. Ko ētahi atu kei konei mātau e totohe ana i wētahi o ngā kupu. Wētahi kia matawhāiti te titiro ki wētahi o ngā kōrero kai roto. Me te hiahia kia whakakaha ake kia whakapakari ake i wētahi o ngā wāhanga kai roto i te pire. Nō reira kua kōrero mai nā koe mō ngā rerekētanga kua rewa nei ki mua i te aroaro o Te Komiti i tēnei pō. Anā kai a mātau wētahi i whai tautoko mātau mō ētahi o ēnei o ngā whakarerekētanga. Kua kōrero mai nā e koe mō tētahi o aua whakarerekētanga anā e pā ana ki te whakaae a te Kāwanatanga nā rātau i tūkinohia nā rātau i tāunu i tō tātau Reo Māori ki raro. Hoi anō tā mātau e tautoko ana i tērā kōrero ēngari ko te whai atu mātau i tētahi whakapāha i tētahi atu kōrero mai i te Kāwanatanga hai tau i te mauri me ngā mamaetanga kua kōrero mai nā e koe kua rangona e koe puta noa i te motu whānui.Ka rua kua kōrero mai nā e koe e Te Minita mō tētahi atu wāhanga ki runga i te poari o Te Mātāwai. E kīia nei e whānui ake ana taku titiro ki te pire i tēnei wā taihoa ake ka patu kutu tātau. Kāti. Kua kōrero mai nā e koe mō tētahi atu wāhanga e pā ana ki Te Mātāwai e kīia nei ka āhei te hunga e matatau ana ki te whakarauora i Te Reo Māori ahakoa wahine mai tāne mai. Ko tētahi atu kōrero kai roto i ngā rerekētanga e hiahia ana mātau ki te tuku atu i mua i a koe me Te Komiti katoa i te pō nei e mea atu ana me ōrite te noho a te wahine me te tāne ki runga i te poari o Te Mātāwai. Me te hiahia pea kia whai reo kia whai whakaaro tātau ki te hunga rangatahi tā te mea kai a rātau te mana o Te Reo Māori ki roto i ngā tau kei mua i a tātau. Mehemea e tino whakaae ana tātau ki tērā kōrero ko rātau ko ngā rangatira o āpōpō tēnā. Me tukuna atu tētahi wāhanga ki a rātau kia āhei ai rātau ki te mirimiri i tēnei kaupapa ki tā rātau e hiahia ki tā rātau i manako ai. Nō reira ka kite koe i tērā kōrero ki roto i te roanga o te totohe i te pō nei.E Te Minita e mea nei tēnei āhuatanga o Te Ao Māori ko te whakapapa he mea tino nui ki a tātau katoa. Nō reira ka hoki atu ahau ki te whakapapa kua kōrero mai nā e koe mai i ngā tau waru tekau i te pire tuatahi e pā ana ki Te Reo Māori. Ko tōna takahanga mai ki tēnei tāima ana me te pire e kitea nei tātau i te pō nei. Ā nō reira mehemea e whakaae ana ko te whakapapa te mea nui ki Te Iwi Māori ē ka whakaaro ake ahau mō tērā whakapāhatanga ka tukuna atu ki mua i a koe ki roto i wā mātau pepa whakarerekē i te pire nei. E tautoko ana i tō kōrero e Te Minita e mea atu ana āe ko te take nui o te wā nei ko Te Reo Māori. Nō reira kei roto i ētahi o wā mātau nawe wā mātau amuamu mō te pire nei kīhei mātau i kite atu i tētahi taumata tiketike e manakohia nei e mātau e tātau Te Iwi Māori mō tō tātau Reo. Āe ka whakaritea nei e kīia nei e te pire ko te tūāpapa. Hoi anō tō mātau e mea atu ana āe he tūāpapa he mea pai tēnā me whakaritea! Ēngari ko te mea nui ko ngā manako e wawatahia nei e mātau kia tiro atu ki roto i te pire tā te mea anei hoki te mana o Te Reo Māori e whakaturengia i te pō nei. E whakaturengia i te pō nei nō reira ko te hiahia kia whakarite taumata kia whakarite taumata e hiahia ana tātau mō Te Mātāwai te whai atu.E Te Minita tā te mea he titiro whānui tēnei ki te pire ā taihoa ake nei ka rukuhia ki tōna hōhonutanga. Ko konei tonu ētahi āwangawanga e pā ana ki ngā āpitihanga kai muri rā i te pire e mea atu ana ko ngā iwi me ngā hapū kai roto. Ko konā wētahi o ngā āwangawanga. Ka mea ake ētahi ki roto i tōku rohe ē āe ko konā ko ngā iwi ko konā ko ētahi o ngā hapū. Ka pēhea nei te hunga kore pā ki te kāinga? Kāti koinā anō wētahi o ngā whakaaro kai mua i te aroaro e Te Minita. Korekore kai roto i te roanga ake o tēnei ka kitea.Kāti hei whakakapi ake. Ki te taha o Te Maihi Karauna. Ka whakaaro ake ki ngā kōrero katoa o wā tātau mātua tūpuna e mea atu ana ko te mātauranga te oranga o Te Iwi Māori. Nō reira ko te hiahia kia āhua tīnihia i te kōrero anā ko te mātauranga te oranga o Te Reo Māori. Nō reira ko konei wētahi āwangawanga ka kōrerohia ki roto i te pō nei e pā ana ki tērā āhuatanga me te hiahia kia kite i tō tātau Reo Māori ki roto i ngā kura. Kia tupu pai ai mō te katoa. Kaua ko Te Iwi Māori anake e mea nei te pire. Ko te hiahia kia whai pānga te motu whānui ki ngā nekehanga me ngā mana kai roto i tēnei pire. Kāti e Te Minita e Te Komiti tēnā koutou kia ora tātau.[Thank you Mr Chairman. Firstly I support the acknowledgments to our many deceased who are travelling upon the extensive pathway towards the Darkness. To those lying in state upon the multitudes of marae at this time farewell farewell farewell.Now let us return the debate to the realm of the living;greetings. Minister Flavell it is wonderful to hear your opening comments to our wānanga or deliberations. I stole your term “wānanga” to describe these proceedings. We must not assume that through cooperation the proceedings this evening will run smoothly. However I assert that cooperation alongside debate and deliberation has brought us together this evening. And so may I congratulate you.Minister this side of the Chamber supports some of the provisions in the bill whilst being opposed to other parts of the bill. Some wish to focus on improving certain parts of the bill. And so you have spoken about the amendments presented to the Committee this evening. And we have our own amendments which have gained support. You commented on one of those amendments relating to an acknowledgment by the Crown that it mistreated and disparaged the Māori language. We endorse that amendment but we are pursuing an apology from the Government to resolve the pain that you said you heard throughout the country.Secondly Minister you have spoken about appointments to the Te Mātāwai board. I am now considering the bill in a wide-ranging manner and we will soon be nitpicking. Enough. You have spoken about a section in the bill which allows for the inclusion of people proficient in language revitalisation initiatives. One of the amendments that we will put before the Minister and the Committee this evening deals with the gender balance on the Te Mātāwai board. We maintain that there should be the same number of women as men on Te Mātāwai and that consideration must be given to youth representation on the board because they will uphold the mana of the Māori language in the future. If we truly agree that our youth are tomorrow’s leaders then they must be represented so they can address this matter in ways that meet their needs and wishes. Therefore you will hear that assertion throughout the debate this evening.Minister a key feature of Māori culture that is paramount to all Māori is genealogy. And so I would like to recall the genealogy that you described from the 1987 Māori Language Act to the present bill that we are considering tonight. And so if we agree that genealogy is paramount to Māori people then the apology in our Supplementary Order Paper 165 on the bill must be considered. I agree with the Minister that the Māori language is currently the primary issue. Therefore we have our objections and complaints towards the bill. We have not found a standard of excellence that meets our expectations—the hopes of Māori for our language. Yes the bill provides a foundation and that is good. However what is important is that we consider our needs and aspirations because the mana of the Māori language is going through its passage into law this evening. It is passing through the legislative process this evening and so there is a need to arrange a standard for Te Mātāwai to pursue.Minister as this is a broad examination of the bill we will not delve into its complexities. We have concerns pertaining to the schedules at the end of the bill that list the cluster of iwi and hapū. That is where we have concerns. Some people in my electorate have said that iwi and hapū are included but what about those who do not have a connection to the homelands? That is a concern that lies before us Minister Flavell. There is no doubt that in time that concern will come to fruition.In conclusion the Crown has responsibility for the Maihi Karauna strategy. I want to recognise our ancestral history which states that the survival of the Māori peoplelies in education. Therefore I would like to change part of that statement to say that the survival of the Māori language lies in education. And so this is one concern that I will express this evening along with a desire to see more Māori language taught in schools so that it may grow for the benefit of everyone not just Māori as outlined in the bill. The objective is for the entire country to become interested in the progress and influence within this bill. Enough Minister and the Committee acknowledgments to you and to us all collectively.]Hon HEKIA PARATA (Minister of Education):Tēnā koe e Te Mana Whakawā otirā tēnā tātau e whakawhāiti nei i tēnei pō i runga i tēnei kaupapa ātaahua. Tuatahi kei te tangi hoki ahau ki tōku pāpā ki a Whairiri Ngata i a ia e takoto ana i waenga o Ngati Porou i waenga i tōna ake hapū a Te Aitanga-a-Mate i runga i te mahau o tōna a tipuna whare a Kapohanga ki Hiruhārama Marae. Pōuri rawa atu ahau kāre i tae ā-tinana atu ahau ki te kāinga ēngari me whakaaro ake ahau mō taku tipuna kōkā a Mihihara. Ko ia tata ki 90 tau ko tōna tama a Whairiri e takoto ana i runga i te mahau. Nō reira ka tika me poroporoaki ahau otirā tātau e Te Minita ki a ia me ērā kei runga i ngā marae maha o Te Motu. Nō reira ki a rātau haere atu haere atu haere atu rā.Hoki mai ki a tātau ngā kanohi ora ngā waihotanga iho o rātau mā e whiriwhiri nei i tēnei kaupapa e pā ana ki tō tātau Reo Māori Reo a tēnā iwi a tēnā iwi a tēnā iwi me ngā ātaahua o ērā rerekētanga e pā ana ki te mita o ngā iwi katoa o Aotearoa nei. E tika ana me hoki ngā mahara ki a Whairiri me tōna pāpā ki a Hōri Mahue nō te mea nā rāua i whakaoti te pukapuka takikupu mō Te Reo Māori. Ēhara ko rāua anake ēngari he tino mahi nā rāua mō tātau katoa.Nā i tēnei pō e kōrero ana mō tēnei taonga o tātau ko Te Reo Māori te reo taketake o Aotearoa whānui. Me tēnei pire ēhara i te mea ko tēnei pire ā kei te tika he whakature te mana o Te Reo ēngari kaua e pōhēhē tātau ka whai mana Te Reo i roto i te ture. Ēngari he mana anō tō tō tātau Reo. Ēngari ko te tino kaupapa o tēnei pō ka kite katoa tātau he Reo mō Aotearoa. Kei te tika tā te mema o tērā taha ka whai wāhi katoa ngā tāngata katoa kei roto i tēnei pire. Mehemea ko te tino tikanga kia ora kia pakari tō tātau Reo ko te tikanga ka taea e te katoa o Aotearoa whānui te kōrero te waiata te mōteatea te haka i roto i tō tātau Reo. Nā kei roto i tēnei pire kei mua i a tātau he hiranga tēnei pire. He tūāpapa mō Te Reo.Ā kei te kite hoki kei roto i tēnei pire kei ngā iwi me te hapori Māori tō rātau mahi kei tōna tō Te Karauna. Me tēnei whakamārama ki a tātau ēhara i te mea ko Te Karauna tēnei taha o Te Whare. Ko Te Karauna te katoa o tātau kei roto i Te Whare Pāremata nē. Nō reira i runga i tēnei whakapapa kua kōrerohia e tātau i tēnei pō kei a tātau katoa te mahi hei waha i tēnei kaupapa me ngā hē e pā ana ki ngā Kāwanatanga o te wā ahakoa ko wai. Ēngari ko te wero ki a tātau i tēnei wā me whakapiki te ora o Te Reo me whakapakari ahakoa ki roto i ngā kura āe e tautoko kaha ana ki tērā i roto i ngā whare wānanga.Hoi anō ko te tino mahi mā tātau ki te kōrero i roto i ngā kāinga i te taha o ngā papa tākaro i roto i ngā hāhi i a tātau e haere ana ki te hoko i roto i ngā toa. Kei ngā wāhi katoa tātau e kōrero ana. Mehemea ka taea tērā ka taea tēnei Reo te whakapakari mō tātau mō ngā whakatipuranga ākuni kei te heke tonu mai. Ā he taonga āe he taonga. Ko te tino ātaahua o te taonga ka taea e tātau te mita o ō tātau ake iwi nē. Tēnā tātau o ngā iwi katoa o Aotearoa me tērā ātaahua.Te rautaki mā te taha ki ngā iwi me te hapori Māori mā rātau e hanga hei wero ki a rātau hei wero hoki ki a mātau i roto i Te Whare Pāremata i roto hoki i Te Kāwanatanga. Ā mā mātau hoki e hanga he rautaki pai ka kite ngā whakahaerenga Kāwanatanga katoa i ngā huarahi mā rātau hei para kia tautoko ngā wawata ngā hiahia ngā moemoeā katoa i te taha kei ngā iwi i te taha Māori hoki. Nō reira e tautoko ana ahau i tēnei. Ēhara i te mea he mahi māmā tēnei he huarahi ngāwari tēnei mō Te Mātāwai. Mō te whiriwhiri ko wai ka eke ki runga i Te Mātāwai nē? Nō te mea kei te mōhio ahau kāre e taea te poari o Te Mātāwai ka puta ngā tāngata katoa hei kanohi mō tērā iwi mō tērā hapū mō tērā marae. Nā reira he uaua tērā mahi te whiriwhiri ko wai ka eke ki runga i tēnei poari nō te mea kei te mōhio tātau ahakoa wā rātau mahi nui kāre e taea e rātau te ea ngā wawata katoa o tātau. Nā reira ko tāku ki a tātau ko taku akiaki ki a tātau kaua e waiho ki Te Mātāwai ki Te Kāwanatanga ki Te Karauna rānei ēnei mahi katoa e waha. Ēngari me whakahau tātau i a tātau ki te kōrero Māori.Kei te rongo atu koutou tātau ka tapepe taku reo i ētahi wā; kāre i te whakapapa pai ētahi o aku kupu. Hoi anō mehemea kāre tātau i te kōrero tēnei Reo kāre e ora tēnei Reo. Nā reira me kōrero tātau ahakoa he aha. Ka hoki aku maharatanga ki te wā i ora ai taku kōkā. He tino Ngati a ia. Ahakoa he aha ka rewa ake te rā ka kōrero a ia i roto i Te Reo o Ngati Porou ā ka moe te rā ka kōrero tonu a ia i Te Reo o Ngati Porou. I a ia e whakarongo ana ki a au e kōrero ana i runga i te pouaka whakaata te reo irirangi rānei i roto i Te Reo ka waea mai a ia: “Kei te hē koe mō tēnei kei te hē koe mō tēnei ēngari kia kaha koe ki te kōrero i tō tātau Reo nē.” Koirā te pai o ngā mātua o ngā kōkā ki a tātau katoa. Ahakoa i roto i Te Reo Māori te reo Pākehā te reo a wai ake te whakatikatika i a tātau kia pakari te haere.Nō reira koinā anake tāku i tēnei pō me te mihi ki a koe e Te Minita. He mahi taumaha tēnei mōhou mō tō hoa haere mō Te Pāti Māori i waenga i te marea. Ki a koe e te heamana o tō tātau komiti whakahaere me ngā hinengaro tautoko ngā hinengaro wero kei roto i tērā komiti. Tēnā tātau e whiriwhiri nei i tēnei kaupapa ātaahua kia kite tātau i tēnei taonga mō tātau mō ngā reanga kei te haere tonu mai. Tēnā tātau katoa kia ora.[Greetings Mr Chairman and all gathered here this evening on this matter. First I lament the passing of my elder kin Whairiri Ngata who lies in state in Ngati Porou territory in the realm of his hapū Te Aitanga-a-Mate in the porch of his ancestral house Kapohanga on Hiruhārama Marae. I am desolate that I was unable to attend his funeral. At this moment I think of my great-aunt Mihihara. She is almost 90 years of age her son Whairiri lying in state on the porch. It is only proper that we farewell his passing Minister Flavell he and others lying in state on many marae throughout the land. So farewell to all our losses.Returning now to the gathering here this evening we the living embodiment of the dead we who are gathered here to discuss this great matter pertaining to our language and the dialects of individual iwi the beauty of the various dialects of Aotearoa. It is only right that we honour the memory of Whairiri and his father Hōri Mahue for they allied with others compiled a dictionary of the Māori language for all our benefit.Tonight our debate focuses on the treasure that is our Māori language the indigenous language of this country. This bill however does not give effect to the prestige of the language in the annals of the law lest we have the mistaken belief that is the process we are going through for the language has its own innate prestige. The focus of our discussions this evening is a language for all of Aotearoa. The member from the Opposition is correct; all people will find their interests accommodated within this bill. If that is our goal to ensure the survival and the maturation of our language so that all the people of Aotearoa are conversant with the language the songs the chants and haka entirely in our language this bill before us is one of great importance. It is a foundation for the language.The bill sets out the role of iwi and Māori communities and the role of the Crown. Let me clarify. The Crown is not limited to members sitting on this side of the Chamber. Rather the Crown is represented by all the members of this Committee. Therefore we all have a responsibility to carry out the provisions of this bill regardless of who is the Government of the time regardless of the wrongs of individual Governments. But the challenge before us this evening is to revitalise our language whether in the educationsystem or otherwise. I fully support that and language initiatives in our tertiary institutions but the main focus of our efforts should be to return the language as a language of common use in the home on the sports fields in our places of religion and when we go to the shops. All places should be places where the language can be and is spoken. If we succeed in those contexts we will have come a long way to ensuring the language will be alive for our generations growing and generations yet born. It is a treasure. The beauty of this treasure is that it accommodates the dialects of individual iwi. That is a beautiful thing to adorn our country.The strategy for iwi and Māori communities will be formulated by iwi andtheMāori community. That is the challenge to them and that is the challenge to the members of this Committee and Government. And we must formulate an effective strategy that encapsulates all Government agencies a strategy that enhances and supports the dreams and aspirations of iwi and Māori. I support this. This will not be an easy task for the group Te Mātāwai. Another challenge will be the composition of Te Mātāwai. It must represent the interests of all people of all iwi of all hapū of all marae. It will be a difficult task to choose the membership of that panel for as we know despite their achievements they will not be able to realise all our aspirations. So I urge us do not leave this work of great moment just in the hands of Te Mātāwai or the Government or the Crown. We must exhort each other to speak the Māori language.As you listen to my speech you can pick up errors of a grammatical nature; some of my words are not quite the right fit. However if we do not make an attempt to speak the language will not survive. So I urge us all to speak regardless. I recall when my mother was alive. She was a true Ngati. Every day that would dawn she would speak our Ngati Porou dialect and at day’s end she would be speaking the dialect of Ngati Porou. She would listen to me speaking on television or on the radio then ring me up to berate me: “You did not say this correctly you said that wrongly but keep talking our language.” That is the strength and value of our parents of our mothers. No matter if the language be Māori or English or some other we must strive to improve our proficiency.That is the sum of my contribution this evening and I applaud the Ministerfor Māori Development. This has been a trying time for you your predecessor Pita and the Māori Party. I salute you the chairman of the Māori Affairs Committee Nuk Korakofor the rigourthatyour select committee put this bill through. Commendations to us this evening on this marvellous bill that aims to ensure the survival and retention of our language for the generations to come. Acknowledgments to us all and thank you.]The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard): Just before I call a member I just want to indicate to the Committee that notwithstanding the fact that the Committee did not give leave to consider all the parts as one question there has been I think a bit of a spreading around—in particular into Te Wāhanga 1 or Part 1 and the Minister for Māori Development’s amendments to that—in the speeches that we have heard so far. What I am proposing to do is just to run pretty liberally with these clauses and then maybe be a bit tighter and take into account what has been said when we come to the appropriate parts. I do not think I am asking you; I am just telling you.ADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour—Te Tai Hauāuru):Tēnā koe e Te Heamana o Te Whare.Otirā kei te mihi hoki au ki a rātau mā kua wehe atu ki tua o te ārai ki te kāinga tūturu mō tātau mō te tangata. Whakapiri taku mi’i poroporoaki ki ngā mi’i kua mi’ia otinoa kei te mi’i ‘oki au ki a Waaka Palmer te heamana o te komiti matua o Te Haahi Rātanakāta’i anō i nana’i rā ka ne’ua. Nō reira e te matua oki wairua atu ki a rātau mā i te wā’i ngaronō reira e ‘oki e moe e moe.Ā ki a tātau ngā mema o Te Pāremata e kī ana te kōrero i te tau 1924 o tērā rautau:“Kia mau ki tō Reo e te iwi. Ka nui te ngaro haere o tēnei ā’uatanga. Nā tō Reo ‘oki ka mō’iotia ai he Māori. Ka kūare koe ki tō Reo ka meinga nō ngā whenua noa atu.”Koinā te kōrero o Ta’upōtiki Wīremu Rātana i te tau 1924. Ā ko tōku nei āwangawanga ki tēnei kōrero i te tau 2001 e 25.15 paihēneti o ngā Māori e mō’io ana e matatau ana ki Te Reo Māori. I te tau 2013 kua heke iho ki te 21 paihēneti noa iho. Ā e tika ana tana kōrero i te tau 1924 o tērā rau tau kei te tika tonu i tēnei rā nā te mea ka ‘eke iho te tokomaha o tātau e matatau ana ki Te Reo. Nō reira e tika ana kia whakatūria tēnei ture hou mō Te Reo Māori.E tautoko ana a’au i te nuinga o ngā take ngā wāhanga kei roto i tēnei pire. He pātai tāku i te wāhanga kei te haere mai.Kāore e kore ka tuku atu ahau i ngā pātai mō ngā ā’uatanga e pā ana ki Te Mātāwai e pā ana ki ngā maihi mai’i Māori me te mai’i Karauna. Ā āhua āwangawanga ahau e rua ngā maihi e tū ana pai tēnā mō te whare. Otirā ko tēhea maihi te tino rangatira mō tēnei āhuatanga:te Maihi Karauna te Maihi Māori rānei? Koinā ēte’i o ōku whakaaro mō tēnā. He kaupapa anō hoki tāku i roto i tēnei pire.[Greetings Mr Chair. I also pay tribute to those dearly departed who have returned to the spiritual homeland. I pay homage to those already mentioned and also to Waaka Palmer the chairman of the executive committee of the Rātana Church who was buried only yesterday. To you our uncle may your spirit return in peace to those gone before you and may you rest in peace.Fellow members of Parliament as was said last century in 1924: “People retain your language. There is great loss from attrition. Through your language you will be known as Māori. If you are ignorant of your language you could be from any other place.” This was stated by Ta’upōtiki Wīremu Rātana in 1924. My concern regarding this statement is that in 2001 25.15 percent of Māori were fluent or very fluent in Māori language. By 2013 this had dropped to just 21 percent. As true as it was in 1924 it remains true to us today as the number of speakers of Māori is declining. Therefore it is only appropriate to establish new Māori language legislation.I support most of the rationale and sections within this bill. I also have questions that I will raise at the next sitting. No doubt I will be asking questions around the Te Mātāwai entity as well as the dual language strategies; both the Māori strategy and the Crown strategy as I do have some concerns. Two strategies will be established which fits with the model. However which strategy will have precedence:the Crown strategy or the strategy for Māori? These are some of my preliminary thoughts regarding the substance of this bill.]One of the principles in the bill talks about sustaining Te Reo Māori and how that can be done intergenerationally. My concern is that we may not be actually addressing that particular issue in a way that includes those generations that have missed out on having Te Reo Māori as their mother language including myself.I want to say this in English that the historical and intergenerational trauma caused by Government policy of the day has meant that the language was virtually lost over less than three generations. My overall concern is whether or not the measures taken in this bill will be enough. But I do endorse the words from the Hon Hekia Parata and what she contributed to the Committee.We actually cannot rely on just the Government and the Crown alone. We have to as Māori whānau hapū and iwi also take that responsibility. My hope in this bill is that through having a Māori strategy and a Crown strategy we will indeed be able to help the situation that most of a whole generation or two have found themselves in and that the decline in speaking Te Reo Māori from 25 percent in 2001 down to 21.13 percent in 2013 can be halted and turned round to the point that we can get to a sustainable level. I understand it is mostly accepted that you need to have 30 percent of your population being able to speak the language for it to be sustainable. Nō reira koinā aku whakaaro i te tuata’i e Te Komiti tēnā tātau.[Those then are my initial thoughts so acknowledgments to us the Committee.]NUK KORAKO (National):Tēnā koe e Te Tiamana. E huri noa i Te Whare nei e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. E ka mea nui ki te mihi atu ki tō tātau Matua Nui i Te Raki. Ko ia te tīmataka me te whakaotika o tātau katoa. Nō reira ka mihi atu ki Te Kaihōmai o kā mea pai katoa.Ka maumaharatia e te rakatira o Te Wai Pounamu a Reverend Canon William George Ehau. Nō reira e Pā e haere atu rā e haere atu rā ki te pā o te whakawairua e takoto mai takoto mai takoto mai!E Te Kaiwhakahaere ā ko tēnei kōrero mō Te Reo Māori i te wāhanga 1 ngā whiti tū mua. Tēnā koe i tēnei te wāhanga 1 o te pire nei. E ka hoki au ki ngā whiti 3 ki te 10 o te wāhanga nei. Tuatahi ka kōrero me te whānui me te kaupapa me ngā whāinga o te pire nei. Arā he whakaū i te mana o Te Reo Māori hei reo taketake mō Niu Tīreni taoka hoki mā ngā iwi me ngā Māori. He Reo hoki ka kaingākautia o te motu reo whai mana e ture e hoki mō Niu Tīreni. Koinā te whāinga o aua whiti e toru te whakamana i taua kaupapa. Ko tētahi āhuataka o te whiti tuawhā ko te tāpiritaka a Te Komiti Whiriwhiri i Te Kōrero e mea ai hāunga te mea ko ngā iwi me te Māori ngā kaitiaki o Te Reo Māori. Ka mau tonu ngā kawenga o Te Karauna e pā ana ki Te Reo Māori. Hāunga te iwi kawenga o Te Iwi Māori hei kaitiaki o Te Reo kia kaua rawa e makere ngā kawenga o Te Karauna. Ko te whiti paku whā ira toru ka whakapūmau i tērā.Ka takoto te whiti hōu a Te Minita ko whiti 5A. He whiti tūtohu te whiti nei he rite ai ki ngā tūtohutaka kei ngā pire whakatau kerēme Tiriti. Ka whakaaehia ngā takahitaka a Te Karauna i ngā tau ki mua i te kore tiaki whakatairaka i Te Reo Māori. Ka whakapūmau ia ki te mahitahi me Te Māori me ngā iwi ki te tiaki me te whakatairaka i Te Reo ā ngā rā kei te tū. He whiti nui tēnei kei te koa ahau ka whai wāhi ki te pire. Hāngai pū te pire nei kite tū me te tūtaki o Te Reo Māori i te ao hou kia kaha ake ai Te Reo. Hoi i te tīmataka me aro ake te pire ki ngā mahi kei mua me te whakaae a Te Karauna. Ka tāpiri e te whiti nei ki te pire kātahi ka tahuri ki ngā mātāpono ārahi i te pire me ngā āwhina ki te hāpai me te whakaora i Te Reo Māori.Ko whiti 6 ka whakapūmau i ngā tika ki te kōrero Māori i roto i ngā mahi me te ture e mea whakamanatia i Te Ture Reo Māori i te tau 1987. Ka takoto i whiti 6A ngā mātāpono ārahi i tēnei ture tae atu ki ngā rautaki tērā ka ara ake. Kua kōrero au mō te wāhi nui ki Te Karauna ki te hāpai me te whakaora i Te Reo Māori i ngā rā kei te tū. Ka whakawhānui ēnei kawenga i ngā whiti ka kōrero mō ngā mātāpono. Kei konei he rerenga kōrero nui arā ko te mahitahitaka. Ka mahi tata Te Karauna me ngā iwi me Te Māori ka mana ana te pire nei ka whakatūria ko Te Mātāwai.Heoi ka haere tonu ngā mahi a Te Karauna ka haere tonu ngā mahi a Te Karauna kāhore e mutu ki reira. Me mahitahi haere ngā taha e rua ki te whakatairaka i Te Reo. Ko te tuawhitu ka whakatakoto mātāpono hei ārahi i ngā tari Kāwanataka. Me matua kōrero rātau ki ngā iwi me Te Māori mō ngā take pupuri i Te Reo me te wāhi mō Te Reo Māori i roto i ngā pānui me ngā pārongo ki te iwi whānui. Ko ngā whiti 7A me whiti 7B ka whakatakoto i ngā rautaki e rua ka haere i raro i te pire. Ka whai ēnei rautaki i te ia o tēnei pire e mea ai: ēhara i te mea ko te tiaki me te whakatairaka i Te Reo Māori te kawenga a Te Karauna anake he kawenga rānei a Te Iwi Māori anake he kaupapa mahitahi. Ka whakatakoto e ngā rautaki e rua ngā whāinga ngā kaupapa here me ngā take huhua kei mua i Te Karauna me Te Mātāwai mō Te Reo.Ka tū tonu te whiti 7C ki te whakarerekē i te pire nei. Ko tēnei te pire tuarua kei roto katoa i Te Reo Māori me te reo Ingarihi. Hoi ko tēnei te pire tuatahi ka mana Te Reo Māori ki runga ake i te reo Ingarihi ki te tohu i te tikaka o te kōrero kei roto. Ko te tūmanako e kore rawa tērā āhuataka e pai mai kia noho pai rawa atu i ngā kōrero i ngā reo e rua. Kīhai e taupatupatu. Hoi ki te pā mā tērā āhuataka ki mua i ngā kōti ka noho ki Te Reo Māori te taha o te tūnga ka aronganuitia.Ko te nui noa atu o wāhanga 1 e whakamārama me tētahi kōrero whānui mō te ture. Ka takoto te wāhanga 1 o te pire te wāhi nui ki te mahitahi o Te Karauna me Te Māori mā roto i Te Mātāwai. Ka aronui te pire i te mana o te Māori ki te aroaro o Te Kāwanataka me ngā iwi o Niu Tīreni ka noho hei papa mō toenga o te pire. Nō reira e Te Kaiwhakahaere e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa huri noa i Te Whare nei tēnā koutou tēnā koutou e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa kia ora.[Thank you Mr Chair. To everyone throughout the Chamber greetings to you all. It is important that I acknowledge our Father in Heaven. He is the beginning and ending for all of us and so I thank the Provider for everything.I pay my respects to the esteemed Reverend Canon William George Ehau of the South Island. And so sir farewell and depart to the domain of the spirits. Remain there sleep rest in peace.Mr Chair thank you for the opportunity to speak on Part 1 of this bill. I will briefly work through clauses 3 to 10 that make up this part. Firstly I wish to talk about the scope and purpose of this bill. And that is to emphasise the status of the Māori language as the indigenous language of New Zealand as a taonga of iwi and Māori as a language valued by the nation and as the official language of New Zealand. It is to that very important purpose that the next three clauses give effect. One element of clause 4 is an amendment added by the Māori Affairs Committe to clarify that declaring iwi and Māori as the guardians of the Māori language does not limit or somehow reduce the responsibilities of the Crown. While this bill gives more of the responsibilities of guardianship of the language to iwi it does not absolve the Crown of its responsibilities and the addition of clause 4(3) ensures that it does not.The Minister for Māori Development’s Supplementary Order Paper 164 introduces a new clause here clause 5A. This clause is an acknowledgment clause similar in vein to the acknowledgments contained in Treaty settlement bills. It acknowledges the past wrongs of the Crown in failing to protect and promote the Māori language and its commitment to work in partnership with iwi and Māori to protect the language in the future. This is a very important clause and one which I am very glad to see included in the bill. The bill is about the future and takes the Māori language in the state it is now and charts a way of moving forward with the strengthening of the language. But it is important that the bill begins by acknowledging past injustices and acknowledging that in the past the Crown has got it wrong. With this clause added to the bill we can move into the principles that will guide the bill and the provisions that will provide the practical means to support and revitalise the Māori language.Clause 6 is largely a continuation of the right to speak Māori in legal proceedings that was already affirmed under the Māori Language Act 1987. Clause 6A sets out the principles that will guide the interpretation of this Act and the development of Māori language strategies under it. I have already touched on the importance of the Crown continuing to have a responsibility to promote and support the Māori language in future. These responsibilities are further expanded on by the principles clause. There is one phrase that is particularly important and that is “active partnership”. The Crown is to be an active partner with iwi and Māori. When this bill is passed Te Mātāwai will be established.However the Crown’s work continues; it does not end there. Both sides must work on to promote the language. Clause 7 gives some guiding principles for departments of State. These include the need to consult with iwi and Māori on matters related to language retention and the need to use the Māori language in the promotion of Government services and information to the public. The next two clauses 7A and 7B set out the two parallel strategies that will be developed under this bill. These dual strategies once again highlight the thread running through this bill: that promotionprotection and revitalisation of the Māori language is not only a Crown responsibility or the responsibility of the iwi and Māori; it is a shared responsibility. The two strategies will set out the objectives policies and related matters for the Crown and Te Mātāwai respectively in relation to the language.Clause 7C highlights the ground-breaking nature of this bill. This is the second bill to contain the full text in both Māori and English but it is the first bill where the Māori text will take precedence should a conflict in the meaning between the two versions ever arise. We hope that situation never arises and we have a robust translation that is clear and not prone to differences of interpretation. However if that situation ever does arise before the courtit is appropriate that in this bill the Māori language version takes precedence.The rest of Part 1 is administrative and includes an outline of the Act. Part 1 of the bill sets out the importance of cooperation between the Crown and Māori through Te Mātāwai. It affirms the status of Māori in New Zealand Government and society and sets the stage for the remaining parts of the bill. Therefore Mr Chair I acknowledge you and everyone in this Chamber; my greetings and salutations to you all.]Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Hauraki-Waikato):Tēnā koe tēnā tātau katoa. Me whai i te wairua o ngā kōrero kua puta i te pō nei kia kuhu pai au ki tēnei wānanga e pā ana ki tō tātau nei Reo. Me te mōhio anō ēhara ko Te Reo anake ko Te Reo me ōna tikanga. Koinā te wairua i whakaarohia e tā mātau komiti whiriwhiri i te wā e āta titiro ki tēnei pire. Nō reira e Te Minita tēnā koe. Ko au tētehi e whakaaro ake tēnā pea me waihotia te pire tuatahi māu anō e hanga i tōku ake pire. Ēngari i ū koe ki tērā tino hiahia kia haere tonu te pire o tō rangatira a Pita. Ahakoa ka āhua piki heke tērā huarahi kua puta kua puta tēnei pire. Nō reira ka tika me mihi atu ki tō Rōpū Tohutohu Reo Māori ki a rātau katoa e āta whiriwhiri e āta whakaarohia ki ngā āwangawanga ngā nawe o ngā kaipetihana i haria mai ō rātau nei whakaaro i mua i te aroaro o te komiti whiriwhiri. Nō reira tēnā koe tēnā koutou: Rāwinia Higgins ko ia te tiamana ki a Ruakere Hond Tākuta Wharehuia Milroy Charisma Rangipunga Charlie Te Pana. Rātau katoa te mahi nunui me kī hei kawea i ngā hiahia o Te Minita me ngā whakaaro o Te Iwi Māori kia tāpiri ērā anā kua kite mai ngā hua i roto i te pire kei mua i a tātau i tēnei pō.Me te whakaaro anō he iti tēnei wāhanga. Ka tika ōu whakaaro me ā mātau nei whakaaro o te komiti kia noho matua Te Reo Māori i te reo Pākehā. E pātai ana mātau mēnā ka whakamātau tēnei pire i Te Kōti ka aha? Ka aha? Ko te whakautu o ō āpiha ko Te Reo Māori hei noho matua i roto i Te Kōti Māori kei te pai tērā! Nō reira ko tēnei īngoa o te pire Te Pire mō Te Reo Māori / Māori Language Bill.Ki ahau nei e tino whakaae ana kia noho matua te īngoa Māori mō te taitara o tēnei pire. E rua ngā wāhanga mō te Part 1AA. Ko tētehi mō te taitara anā kua whakaputa aku whakaaro mō tērā; ko tētehi mō te tīmatanga o te pire nei. Ka pai ka mutu tēnei wāhanga mō te taupatupatu o te pire ka āhei kia whakaturengia te katoa o te pire ēngari.Te āhuatanga mō Te Pūtahi Pāoho e tino whakaae me whakakorengia tērā rōpū e tino whakaae tērā. Ka noho tonu tēnā wātaka kia whakakorengia rātau 30 Maehe ā tērā tau ka whakakorengia Te Pūtahi Pāoho ka pai tērā. Ka mahara au ki ngā wā ō mua ka āta whakaaro ake ki tērā rōpū ka whakaaro ake tēnā pea ka tae ki te wā ki te whakakorengia ā rātau nei mahi nō reira tautoko tērā.He paku te wāhanga ki te whakaputa ētehi o ngā whakaaro o tō mātau nei komiti e pā ana ki ngā pou o tēnei pire. Ki ō mātau nei whakaaro pai kē kia tū Te Rautaki Reo Māori me Te Rautaki o Te Karauna te maihi o Te Karauna me te maihi Māori. Ēngari ko te tino mahi ka pēwhea rā hei tuitui ērā rautaki kia whakaora ai. Tēnā pea māu hei whakautu ōu whakaaro kia whakamārama pai i ērā.Tuarua e pā ana ki te whakapāhā a Te Karauna. Kua puta tēnei kaupapa ki mua i tō mātau nei whakaaro. I aua wā nōku te pātai inā ka whakaae katoa tātau—ngā mema katoa o te komiti—kia noho tētehi whakapāhā i roto i te pire māmā noa iho ki te tuhia. Ēngari ki waenganui i ō mātau nei whiriwhiri ō mātau nei whakaaro kāre i noho pai tērā whakaaro o ngā mema katoa. Koinā te take e Te Minita ka haria mai tērā ki mua i te aroaro me kī o ngā pāti katoa kia kite rātau mēnā e hiahia ana Te Karauna ahakoa te aha ki te. Mehemea e whakaae katoa ā tātau pāti kia kuhu tētehi whakapāha atu i roto i tēnei pire he mea pai: te hāngai whakapapa ngā āhuatanga o ngā kura ō-mua ngā native schools me ngā kaupapa ō-mua o Te Karauna hei patua ā tātau nei Reo i roto i aua wā. Ka hoki ngā mahara ki ētehi o ngā kōrero i puta mai i te kāinga ngā whakaaro o āku aunties me āku uncles i te wā i haere rātau ki te kura. Kei te ora tonu aua maharatanga me kī ngā toimaha o aua wā.Koinā te take i whakaaro au ka tika he pire hōu tēnei he pire hōu he wāhanga hōu ki te anga whakamua ēngari me pupuru tātau ki ngā āhuatanga ō-mua kia kaua e wareware ki ērā wā ngā wā toimaha ngā wā toimaha o wā tātau nei mātua tūpuna kia kawea tō tātau Reo kia ora ai ki waenganui i te whānau ahakoa ngā āhuatanga ki ngā kura. I roto i ngā hiahia kei te ora tonu ahakoa paku kei te ora tonu Te Reo kei waenganui i ō tātau nei marae arā ō tātau nei whānau. Kua mōhio pai koe ki taku Reo. I roto i taku whānau ka hoki ngā mahara ki ngā kaumātua me ō rātau tohutohu mai ki a au. Ko te mea nunui kia whakaaro Māori koe kia pai te wairua o te kōrero ā te wā ka taea te taka pai te hanga pai o kōrero ki ōu whakaaro. Andtēnā pea i ēnei wā kei te ū tonu au ki a rātau nei poipoi.Nō reira e Te Minita ka nui te mihi atu i tēnei wāhanga o ngā kōrero. Me te mihi atu ki tō tātau nei tiamana a Nuk. Tangata tino pai ki te whakahaere i ngā pātai toimaha ngā pātai katoa o ngā mema. I wāwāhi ia i ngā wāhanga me kī kia ruku tātau ki ō tātau nei ake whakaaro e pā ana ki ngā kaupapa katoa mō tēnei pire arā mō ngā pire katoa i tae mai ki tā mātau nei komiti. Arā āhua whakaaro au i ētehi wā ki ō āpiha. He mea uaua kia kawea ā rātau nei kōrero ki mua i te aroaro o te komiti me ngā āhuatanga e pā ana ki tō rōpū tohutohu. He mea uaua tērā wāhanga nō reira ā te wā ka whakaarohia mēnā he wāhanga anō ki te whakatikatika i ngā mahi pēnei. Ēngari ēhara tēnei hei tohutohu i a koe e Te Minita ēngari ka whakamārama pai i ngā whakaritenga kei waenganui i tō mātau nei komiti.Ko te mea whakamutunga mō ngā āhuatanga e pā ana ki tō tātau nei Reo Māori hei noho matua. I pātai mātau mēnā ka taea te tangata ki te wero atu ngā āhuatanga e pā ana ki tēnei pire i Te Kōti karekau he Tiati; atu i ngā kōti whenua Māori he tiati atu atu i te Justice Williams he tiati hei tino whakawā i ngā āhuatanga o te pire nei. Nō reira tēnā pea he wero ki a tātau katoa kia whakapiki ake ngā mea Māori i roto i ngā kōti teitei. Kia ora tātau.[Greetings. Allow me to follow the tenor of this discussion pertaining to our language. And lest we forget it is not just the language but the language in its cultural context. This was the spirit that carried the Māori AffairsCommittee in its careful deliberations on this legislation. Salutations Minister Flavell. I was one of those who considered that you should craft your own bill from its beginnings. However you maintained consistency with your predecessor Pita and despite the travails of this path you have succeeded; the bill is soon to become a reality. I applaud the work of your Māori Language Advisory Group for its careful work in addressing the concerns of petitioners who came before the select committee. Salutations to you all: Rāwhinia Higgins is the chairperson and the membership comprises Ruakere Hond Dr Wharehuia Milroy Charisma Rangipunga and Charlie Te Pana. Congratulations on this great piece of work maintaining consistency with the aims set forth by the Minister for Māori Development while giving credence to the views of the Māori people and we see the fruits of that effort in this bill before us this evening.And this is but the beginning. You are correct and we of the select committee concur that the Māori language has primacy over the English language in this piece of legislation. We asked what would happen if this legislation was taken before the courts. The response of your officials was that the Māori language version would retain primacy within Māori court settings “and that is a good thing”hence the title of this bill Te Pire mō Te Reo Māori / Māori Language Bill. I fully support the primacy of the Māori language in the title of this bill. There are two clauses in Part 1AA. One clause concerns the title and I have expressed my views on that; another clause concerns the commencement of the bill. It is good that on the completion of our debate we can enact the bill in its entirety.As for this group Te Pūtahi Pāoho I am strongly of the view that it should be done away with. I agree with the deadline given for its disestablishment 30 March next year. That is a good thing. When I think of that group and its past work the time has come to disestablish it and I support that.Let me focus on the discussions of the Māori Affairs Committee regarding the main pillars of this bill. We agree with the dual strategies approach a Māori strategy and a Crown strategy but the challenge is to mesh the two strategies to give effect to the revitalisation of the language. We would appreciate a steer from you Minister as to how you see this working.Secondly the apology by the Crown. This was discussed by the select committee. I asked that the select committee unanimously agree that an apology be included in the bill. It is an easy thing to write into the bill. However the select committee could not reach unanimity on this matter. That is why Minister we have brought the matter to the Committee of the whole House for all the parties to glean the wishes of the Crown either way. It would be a good thing if all parties would agree to include an apology in the bill: set out the history the original school system native schools and the past policies of the Crown to suppress us. I recall the stories I heard at home the stories from my uncles and aunties about their experiences attending school. Their memories are still vivid of those times the negative experiences.That is why I consider this bill a fresh starting point a new beginning a path forward while holding on to the memories of those hard times the experiences of our elders who strove to retain the language within the whānau despite the negative experiences of the school system. Through their efforts the language still survives albeit only just on our marae and within our whānau. You are well acquainted with my level of language proficiency. In my own whānau I recall the elders who offered me guidance. The main thing they taught me was to think as a Māori to speak only good and in time your words will truly express your thoughts. Unto this day I still cleave unto those teachings.So congratulations Minister. And let me thank our chairperson Nuk. He is accomplished in allowing free discourse by members of the select committee on all matters. He broke matters down to their constituent parts; this allowed free and frank debate on all aspects of this bill indeed all bills that come before the select committee. I also considered the role of your officials. It is a difficult task for the officials to balance their responsibilities to the select committee and their responsibiilties to your expert advisory panel. That was an onerous part of their work and perhaps in the future we can look to mitigate that tension. This is not a critique of you Minister;ratherit is the view of the select committee.The concluding matter pertains to the status of the Māori language. We asked if challenges could be made to this bill in court without an appropriate judge—besides theMāori land court judges besides Justice Joe Williams—a judge able to adjudicate on aspects of this bill. Perhaps this is a challenge to increase the numbers of Māori-speaking judges in the system. Thank you.]MARAMA DAVIDSON (Green):Tēnā koe e Te Minita huri noa i te Whare tēnā koutou katoa. E tū ana ahau he paku kōrero tāku e pā ana ki te tīmatanga o tēnei pire. Ā rawe ki te whakarongo atu ki tēnei kōrero i roto i Te Reo Māori. Ko tērā te tino kaupapa o taku Reo nō reira ahakoa te wero ahakoa te wiriwiri ā me waiho ēnei pepa ki te taha mō tēnei paku kōrero. I rongo au i ō kōrero Nanaia Mahuta me Māori te whakaaro ā tērā pea ka whai pea Te Reo. Nō reira me īnoi ki ngā atua.He paku kōrero tāku ko tētahi atu take taonga o ēnei momo ture kei mua i Te Whare. He taonga tēnei wānanga mō rātau e whakarongo atu mō rātau e titiro mai ki Te Whare nei e kōrero ana i Te Reo mō te wā katoa nē rā? Ohāe! Ko tērā te kaupapa ake o ēnei momo o tēnei ture Te Pire mō Te Reo Māori. Nō reira ka tū au ki te tautoko i a mātau e kōrero ana e tautoko ana i tēnei pire.I hoki ō mātau mahara ki ngā tohunga katoa kua wehe ki te pō kua haere me ō mātau mahi rangatira ki te whawhai mō tō tātau Reo mō te ao katoa mō Aotearoa katoa ēhara mō Te Māori anake. Ā nō reira i a au e noho ana e rongo ana i tō mātau kōrero ā ka hoki aku mahara ki a rātau. Ā atu i tērā hoki aku whakaaro ki a rātau e whakarongo ana i tēnei wā.Ko ēnei momo wāhanga o Te Whare nei te wāhi whakatinana i ō rātau moemoeā o ō mātau tūpuna katoa nē! Ko tēnei te wāhanga whakatinana ai i tērā moemoeā. He nui taku hōnore ki te tū i te mea i kī mai tōku pāpā—i tērā atu taha o te ao i tēnei wā—i kī mai ia: “Auē! Hoki aku mahara kōtiro i te wā i hara mai ahau ki ngā poutama o Te Whare Pāremata ki te whawhai mō Te Reo. Auē; 1972 pea.” I kī mai ki a au: “Auē he tino moemoeā te tirohanga ki a koe te kōtiro e tū ana ki roto i Te Whare! Kāre e hīkoi whakahē ana ki waho i Te Whare Pāremata. E tū ana koe ki roto i Te Whare! E kōrero ana i roto i Te Reo i ngā wā katoa!”. Ki a ia he tino taonga te tiro atu i tērā.Ā nō reira he paku kōrero tāku mō tērā taonga o tēnei momo pire kei mua i a mātau; he wānanga ki te whakatinana i ō rātau moemoeā o ō mātau tūpuna katoa. Ā nō reira tēnā koutou tēnā koutou kia ora.[Greetings Minister Flavell and to all throughout the Chamber greetings everyone. I stand to take a short call and to talk briefly about the beginnings of this bill. It is tremendous to hear these proceedings being carried on in the Māori language. That is also why I am speaking in Māori. So despite the challenge and the apprehension I will leave these papers aside momentarily for this brief statement. I heard the comment from you Nanaia Mahuta that if one thinks in Māori the language will perhaps follow suit. Therefore I should ask the gods for help.I have only a brief statement. Another valuable benefit of this type of legislation before the Committee is the actual debate and discussionthatis heard and seen being carried entirely in the Māori language is it not? Absolutely! This is the real effect of legislation like the Māori Language Bill. ThereforeI also stand to support those of us contributing in support of this bill.We also recall the many cultural experts who have passed on having laid the way for our language struggle—not just for Māori but for all of New Zealand and the wider world. So as I sit here and listen to our debateI am reminded of them.In addition I am also conscious of all the people currently listening at this time. It is during these sittings in the Committeewhen the dreams and aspirations of our ancestors can be given substance is it not? This is where those aspirations can be embodied; this is the place. It is indeed an honour to stand here as my own father reminded me currently from the other side of the world when he said: “Amazing! I remember daughter coming to the steps of Parliament to fight for the language. Indeedit was about 1972.” He told me: “It is a dream to see you my daughter a representative in the House. Without protest or without marching out the front of Parliament. You are representing from inside the House! And speaking in Māori language all the time!”. It is amazing for him to see such a delight.Therefore I have taken a short opportunity to express that delight in relation to this type of bill currently before us—indeedan invaluable debate and discussion on how we can best enable the aspirations of all our ancestors. Therefore greetings and felicitations to one and all.]Hon TE URUROA FLAVELL (Minister for Māori Development):Kia ora mai e hoa mā. Kei te mōhio tonu ahau e hiahia ana koutou ki te tū ki te kōrero ēngari he mataku nōku ka kore e whakautu i ētahi o ngā kōrero i puta i tēnei pō nō reira mō te wā poto ka rere tika tonu atu ki ngā kōrero kua kōrerohia.Tuatahi i rongo ake i te āhuatanga o te kōrero mō te noho ōrite kai roto i tērā tāpiritanga tāne wahine nā i runga i Te Mātāwai. Ko te mate kē i roto i te pire kāre e kore ka kōrerohia ā taihoa ake nei. Mā tēnā rohe mā tēnā rohe tōna ake tangata kotahi e whakarite. Me pēhea a taea ai te whakariterite i te ōritetanga o te tāne me te wahine o Te Mātāwai mēnā kai tēnā takiwā kai tēnā takiwā kai tēnā takiwā tōna mana koirā pea tētahi whakautu ki tērā kōrero ēngari kai te rongo ake i te ia o te kōrero me whā wāhi wā tātau wāhine i roto i ngā nekeneke o Te Mātāwai.Tuarua ā kua rongo ake pēnei mō te āhuatanga o te piki haere o te hunga kōrero Māori ē kore taea te karo i tērā whakaaro ēhara kai te tika tērā. Ko te mate kē me pēhea e taea ai. Ko te kaute o te hunga kōrero Māori ka puta nō muri mai i te tatauranga matua nā! Ka mutu ia whā tau ka āta titiro ki tērā. I tēnei wā mēnā ka pātaia te pātai tēnā tokohia ngā mea e kōrero Māori ana i te mata o te whenua? Ko te paihēneti kē te kaute kaua ko te nui o te tokomaha o te tangata. Nō reirā ā tērā pea he raruraru kai reira ēngari e kore taea te karo i tērā hiahia kia whakanui ake te whakamaha ake i te hunga kōrero Māori. Mō te āhuatanga o Te Mātāwai āe kua kōrerohia tērā ka mutu waiho tērā ki reira mō te roanga ake o ngā kōrero.Ka hoki ki ngā kōrero o te mema o Te Tai Hauauru ki a koe Adrian Te Maihi Māori Te Maihi Karauna: ko tēhea te mea whai mana? Ēhara i te mea ko tētahi ēngari ko Te Rūnanga Reo te mea ka noho hai korowai mō ngā mea e rua Te Tāhuhu o Te Whare ko Te Rūnga Reo. Ko te nohotahi o te Kāwanatanga Minita me ētahi o Te Mātāwai ka nohotahi te tēpu kotahi ki reira whakarite aim ō te āhuatanga o Te Reo i te mata o te whenua. Nō reirā tērā tērā. E tika ana tāu he wāhi tā tēnā tā tēnā ēhara i te mea mā te rautaki tō tā tātau Reo e ora ai kāo! Ko tēnei tā Mārama e kōrero nā—ko te kōrero i Te Reo ā mā reira ka ora tō tātou Reo.Ka hoki rā anō ki ngā kōrero o te mema o Ōtautahi o Ngāi Tahu anō hoki mō te āhuatanga o tana kōrero kore e taea te karo! I whaiwhai haere a ia i rārangi mahi ka mutu ko te painga ake i puta i tētahi o tātau ko te pire nei he mea kua tae mai nā runga i te āhuatanga o te whakarongo ki ngā mea tuku kōrero ki te komiti o te mata o te whenua i taku komiti e haere ana i te mata o te whenua. Ka toru ko koutou ngā ringa raupā o Te Whare Pāremata ka whā ā ka mutu o taku rōpū. Nō reira koinei te whakatinana mai o ērā āhuatanga katoa o ērā whiriwhiringa katoa. Koinā te painga ake o tēnei o ngā pire.Mō Te Pūtahi Pāoho ē waiho tērā ki reira. Kua rongo ake i tērā kōrero e kore au e whakahē i tērā kōrero ā kā mutu mō te kupu whakapāha e kōrerohia ake nei ā kua oti kē i a au te whakamārama ake. Ā e tika ana tāu ko ngā mamae ko ngā pēhitanga o tō tātau Reo kua whakarārangihia i roto i ngā pukapuka hītori. Kai reira tonu ērā kōrero ēngari ka rata au ki te kōrero āe me whakaae atu ki tērā i mahia ēngari me titiro ki te pae rangi me titiro whakamua kia taea ai te kī atu a ko te oranga o tō tātau Reo kai roto i ngā tamariki kai roto i ngā mokopuna.Kāti hai whakakōpani i tēnei wāhanga kia taea ai e au te kī i whakautu au i ngā kōrero ētahi o ngā kōrero. Ka rata au ki te kōrero o tērā o Te Kākāriki “Mā te kōrero i Te Reo mā reira ā ka hua ake ngā painga mō te oranga o tō tātou Reo mō ake nei.” Kia ora tātau.[Thank you fellow members. I realise you are wanting to speak.However I am just concerned there may be no opportunity to respond to some of the issues raised this evening; therefore in this short opportunity I will address directly the points raised.First the point was made in Supplementary Order Paper 166 regarding the balance of composition of male and female membership of Te Mātāwai. The problem in the bill however which will no doubt be mentioned shortly is that it will be for each region to select their own single representative. How can the proportional balance of male and female members of the Te Mātāwai entity be achieved if it is up to the arbitrary discretion of each region? This is perhaps one response to that issue.However the point has been made that women should have a role in Te Mātāwai.Second the issue of the need to increase numbers of speakers of the Māori language has been raised and there is no argument there;that is indeed correct. The problem however is how to achieve that.The demographic statistics of Māori language speakers only appear following the census which means a 4-yearly review cycle. If the question were to be asked “What is the total number of speakers of Māori today?” the response would be a percentage rather than an actual number of speakers. Despite being problematic the goal to increase the number of speakers of the Māori language is inescapable. As for the nature of Te Mātāwai this has already been discussed and I will leave it at that for the remainder of this debate.Returning to the contribution from the member for Te Tai Hauāuru to youAdrian regarding the Māori strategy and the Crown strategy: which will take precedence? In short neither will although Te Rūnanga Reo forum will be established to support both and will be the centre ridgepole of the framework. Te Rūnanga Reo is the bringing together of both Government Ministers and members of Te Mātāwai to be seated together at the planning table for Māori language. That being so what you have said is correct: everyone has a role to play.Our language will not survive by strategy alone. As Mārama stated only by speaking the Māori language will the language survive.Returning to the contribution from the member for Canterbury and of the region of Ngāi Tahu what he said cannot be refuted. He adhered to the agenda and furthermore one good thing mentioned is that this bill has been brought together as a consequence of listening to advisory group submissions across the country as my expert advisory group undertook its travelsthirdly all the assistance from the many hands of Parliament and fourthly but not least from my department. Therefore this is the embodiment of all that effort and deliberation—another direct benefit of this bill.As for the Māori Television Electoral College enough said. The point has been made and I will not belabour it.For the issue of an apologyI have already shared my view. What you have said is correct regarding the pain and the suppression of our language as has been well documented in history books. Those issues still exist and I do feel yesthatwhat transpired should be acknowledged. However we need to focus on the horizon looking forward to be able to say that the survival of our language is in our children and grandchildren.In conclusion and so that I can say I have responded to the issues raised or at least some of them I commend the statement by the Green Party spokesperson: “Only by speaking the language will our language survive into the future.” Thank you everyone.]PITA PARAONE (NZ First): Tēnā koe e Te Heamana. E tū ake tēnei mō Te Rōpū Aotearoa Tuatahi ki te kōrero atu ki ngā take e pā ana ki te pire nei. Ēngari i mua i te haere tonu o aku kōrero e tautoko ana au i ngā mihi i mihingia e Te Minita me ētahi atu o ngā kaikōrero i tū ake i mua i a au ki ērā atu o ngā hunga i ngaro atu ki te tirohanga kanohi:nā ko Whai Ngata tēnā ko Waka Palmer tētahi o ngā pou o Te Hāhi Rātana ā me tētahi atu i whakaīngoatia e tō tātou hoa mai i Ōtautahi. E tika ana kia mihi kau ana ki a rātau nā te mea i roto i tēnei āhuatanga e pā ana ki te mihi atu ki a rātou ka puta mai te ātaahua o tō tātou Reo. Nā reira e ngā mate haere hoki atu.Hoki mai ki a tātau te hunga ora nā reira tēnā koutou tēnā koutou tēnā koutou. Ā taku mōhio i tēnei wāhanga i kōrerohia i a tātou e pā ana ki te wāhanga tuatahi o te pire nei. Nā i roto i ngā āhuatanga o tēnei wāhanga kei konei tetahi wāhi e hiahia ana au ki te kōrero atu e pā ana ki te whakapāha atu a Te Minita e hiahia nei ia kia whakauru mai ki roto i te pire nei. Whakaaro ana au he aha ana te take i waihotia i tēnei wā i te hāngaitia o tēnei pire? Ki a au nei mēnā e hiahia ana tātou kia kite mai tēnei tūāhuatanga ko tēnā te wā kia tuhi atu i roto te pire nei. Ēngari kia ahatia?Māku e mea atu ki a tātou te take e kite ana tātou ēnei kupu whakapāha i muri mai i tētahi kōrero i te wā e noho ana Te Taraipiunara i roto o Ngāpuhi. I rongo tātou i ngā kōrero a tetahi o ngā mema tahito o Te Komiti nei a Dover Samuels. Nāna i mea atu ki Te Taraipiunara e tika ana kia whakapāha atu Te Karauna ki a ia me tōna tupuranga.Ēngari ki a mātou i roto o Aotearoa Tuatahi karekau kē i tino tautoko i tēnā whakaaro. I aha ai? I te wā o Tā Apirana Ngata ko ia me tōna hoa i taua wā nā rātau i mea atu ki Te Ao Māori kia whakakaha ana i a tātou kia huri atu ki ngā taonga o Te Ao Pākehā. Kei mōhio mai wā tātou tamariki o taua wā kia mōhio mai ki te kōrero Pākehā me ērā atu tūmomo mahi. Pai atu ēnā whakaaro i taua wā. He aha ai? Ko te nuinga o Te Ao Māori kotahi anō Te Reo ko Te Reo Māori. Nā reira ki a mātou i roto o Aotearoa Tuatahi karekau e tino tika ana kia mea atu Te Karauna kia whakapāha ki a tātou mō taua momo rangatira o taua wā o taua wā. Kia ahatia? E tika ana te kōrero a te tuahine a Nanaia: i kōrero tahi tātou i roto te komiti whakawhiriwhiri mō ngā take Māori tēnei kaupapa i whakaaro anō e mātou waihotia i tēnei wā kia tukuna atu ki Te Komiti kia kōrero. Nā reira wēnā te take e kōrero ai tātou i tēnā tūmomo āhuatanga i tēnei wā.Nā reira wēnā tā mātou whakaaro e pā ana ki tēnā.I rongo mātou i ngā kōrero e pā ana ki te rōpū Te Mātāwai i te kōrero mutunga i te wā i puta mai tēnei pire i roto Te Whare neii mea atu ki Te Minita i taua wā karekau mātou e whakaaro e kore tika ana kia whakarārangi ngā īngoa mō tēnā rohe mō tēnā rohe korekau e tika ana kia waihotia te tini o ngā iwi i roto i ngā wāhanga e rima e toru. Mōhio ana koe e Te Minita.I tērā atu wiki i haere anō au ki tetahi hui i roto Te Tai Tokerau ki te kōrero atu i tēnei take me pēhea ai tātou e tohungia i tētahi kaikōrero mō te rohe o Te Tai Tokeraui puta mai te kōrero o taua hui kia mukua ngā īngoa iwi waihotia ko Te Rohe o Te Tai Tokerau. Waihotia ki a rātou i tohungia ko wai te kaikōrerotēhea ngā iwi i tae atu ki reira nā te mea karekau kē i rārangitia ngā iwi ngā hapū katoa. Mēnā karekau e kite atu tō hapū i ngā rārangi īngoa tēnā pea kua mahue koe ki te taha! Koinā te whakaaro o taua hui. Nā reira koinā te take i whakaaro anō rātou tēnā pea kia muku atu aua īngoa. Waihotia ki te hui kia tau atu tō rātou hiahia.Nā reira e Te Minita ahakoa ngā piki ngā heke e pā ana ki te urunga mai o tēnei pire kei te mihi tonu ki a koe.Hon Te Ururoa Flavell: Kei te tautoko koe?PITA PARAONE: Kāo! Kāo! Nā te mea ko te tini o ngā mea i roto kāre mātou i tino tautoko. Me pēnā i wētahi o ngā rōpū i tautoko i a koe i mua rā nā te mea i puta mai ki a au tetahi reta mai i Te Rōpū Ngā Kaiwhakapūmau i Te Reonā mōhio ana koe e Te Minita kei roto i a rātou ētahi āwangawanga. Nā reira whakaaro anō mātou i roto o Aotearoa Tuatahi tēnā pea i takahingia i a rātou te ara tika ki te hakahēngia ētahi o ngā kōrero i roto i te pire. Ēngari i te mutunga o te rā e Te Minita ngā mihi hoki ki a koe.He mea tino rerekē tēnei pire ki tēnā o tō hoa a Pita i te wā urunga mai o tēnei pire.Ēngari taku kōrero whakamutunga kata ana au ki a au nā te mea e aha ana te kaupapa o tēnei pire? Kia whakakaha ana tangata ki te whakamatatau i tō tātou Reo Rangatira? He aha ana te take e kata ana au? Mō tēnei e tū ana korekau i tino matatau ki tō tātou Reo ēngari kei konei au ki te whakamana hakahē hoki te āhuatanga o te pire nei. Nā reira kia ahatia? Ēngari ko te mea nui kua puta mai te pire nei kei te rongo i a tātou i te motu hoki i tō tātou Reo Rangatira i te pō nei. Nā reira tēnā koutou tēnā koutou kia ora mai anō tātou.[Greetings Mr Chairman. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to address matters relating to this bill. Before going on I add my condolences to those of the Minister for Māori Development and others who spoke before me for those who are lost from sight: Whai Ngata; Waka Palmer a pillar of the Rātana faith; and one other mentioned by our colleague from Christchurch. It is fitting because in according tributes to them in this situation the beauty of our language comes to the fore. So to you the dead depart farewell.And so I come back to us the living;acknowledgments greetings and salutations to you collectively. My understanding is that the section we are addressing relates to the first part of the bill. Featuring in this part of the bill is an aspect thatfocuseson the apology the Minister proposes to include in this bill. I think to myself why leave it until until nowand not when the bill was drafted? My view is that if we wanted to see this situation that was the time to do it. Why now?My conjecture to us is that we are seeing a reference to an apology following a statement made at a hearing of the Waitangi Tribunal amongst the Ngāpuhi people. We heard the statements made by a former member of thisCommittee Dover Samuels. He said to thetribunal that it is only right that the Crown apologise to him and those of his generation.But we of New Zealand First do not actually support that view. And why not? In the time of Sir Apirana Ngata he and an associate exhorted Māori to equip themselves for the material world of the Pākehā. As part of the preparation the children of the timehad tolearn to speak Englishalong with other skills. That was appropriate for those times because the majority of Māori had but one language the Māori language. In the light of that we of New Zealand First do not think it right to call on the Crown to apologise for the actions of a great leader of the time. So what now? What fellow colleague Nanaia asserted is correct: wethe Māori Affairs Committee membersconsidered this matter and decided to refer it theCommitteefor consideration. Thatis the reason we are addressing that situationat this point in time. So that is our view on that matter.We heard the comments about the Te Mātāwai group andat the time of my last addresswhen thisbill wasintheHouse I said to the Minister that we opposed a hapū register. It is not right that so many tribes be crammed into five four or even three regions. I know this and so do you Minister.Last week I also attended a meeting inthe farnorth to speak on this matter about selecting a representative for thefarnorth. The outcome was to delete the tribal names and and leave it as thefarnorthregion and for the tribes in attendance at that meeting to select a representative for the regionas not all subtribes and tribes attended that meeting. If you don’t see your subtribe on the register then it might have been overlooked. That was the thinking of that meeting; that was the reasoning to dispense with those names. Leave it for that meeting to satisfy their wishes.So Minister despite the trials and tribulations in introducing this bill we continue to commend you.Hon Te Ururoa Flavell: Are you saying you support it?PITA PARAONE: No! Not at allbecause there are many parts in it that we do not support like some groups that supported you in the past because I received a letter from Ngā Kaiwhakapūmau i Te Reo that you are aware of Minister expressing some concern of theirs. We of New Zealand First have a perception that they may have traversed a righteous path to oppose some statements in the bill. But at the end of the day we acknowledge your efforts Minister. The bill has undergone many changes since the one your predecessor Pita introduced into the House.In conclusion I laugh to myself and say:what is the purpose of the bill? To make people proficient in our chiefly language? But why am I amused? For this oneisstanding here andalthoughnotvery proficient in our languagegiving effect to it and opposing its function. So what can be done about it? But the main thing is that this bill has emerged and we and the nation are hearing our chiefly language tonight. So acknowledgments and congratulations once again to youand to us collectively thank you.]MARAMA FOX (Co-Leader—Māori Party):Tēnā koe e Te Mana Whakawā. Ā i ahau e whakarongo ana ki Te Minita e kōrero ana mō Te Reo Māori nāna te kī: “Ko Te Reo Māori te matapihi ki Te Ao Māori.” E tika taua korero. Ā i roto i tēnei wāhanga o te pire i kite nei i te kōrero a Te Karauna e kī nei: “E hē e hē ana mātau!” I ngā tau kua hipa atu āe whakaae ana mātou katoa ki tēnei tātou katoa ki tēnei. I te kāinga tētahi o ngā porowhiti Paora Pōtangaroa i kī nei i a ia i runga i tana—[Mr Chairman as I was listening to the Minister for Māori Development talking about the Māori language he said: “The Māori Language is the window to Māoridom.” That statement is correct. And in this part of the bill I saw this comment by the Crown that states: “We were at fault.” In past years yes we all agreed with this. Back home there was a prophet called Paora Pōtangaroa who said when he was on his—]The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard): I apologise for interrupting the member but the time has come for me to leave the chair.Progress to be reported presently.House resumed.The Chairperson reported the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill with amendment progress on the Te Pire mō Te Reo Māori / Māori Language Bill and no progress on the Drug and Alcohol Testing of Community-based Offenders Bailees and Other Persons Legislation Bill.Report adopted.The House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.