Salesa Jenny; Goldsmith PaulPart 7 Finalisation of proposed agreementCHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa): Members we come now to Part 7. This is the debate on clauses 130 to 163 Finalisation of proposed agreement" and Schedule 2 "Ratification process: number of votes for covered employers". The question is that Part 7 stand part.Hon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): Thank you Madam Chair. I will just make the point that this part is quite a substantial one with lots of different issues in it and we will try and work our way through it systematically. But fundamentally it's around what happens when the bargaining has been completed and clauses 132 and so forth relate to how the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) assesses and if it's up to scratch approves the agreement and then it sends it off to be ratified by both the union and the employer side. Then the ERA sort of has to verify whether or not the vote is correct and in favour. And then once that's all happened and the various checks are made it is brought into force through secondary legislation and the chief executive has to issue the notice. Then we've got all the complications about who it entails. So I just hope you don't cut us off too soon in our discussion of this part because there are many different elements to it and we want to have a chance to work our way through them.So starting off with the whole question of the assessment of the ERA into the agreements in themselves when it's finalised—or fundamentally I suppose the broad point I'd make is that once it is finalised it applies to everybody: all employers and all employees within its coverage. So that is I suppose one of our fundamental objections to this legislation—that there is no choice involved. That's why we call it mandatory union deals rather than fair pay agreements because you know a bunch of people negotiate the agreement between the union and the employers and if there are a thousand different employees—ranging from if we were talking about checkout operators Foodstuffs and Progressive Enterprises at one end to mum and dad owners of a superette in Hokianga at the other end of the spectrum—some of them will be involved in the discussions most of them won't. There's a lot of debate about how much information will filter down to the small operators and how much will filter back from the small operators and who will listen. But regardless of all that when it comes to the crunch if it works its way through Part 7 of the bill and comes out the other side it applies to everybody—and they haven't had much of a say about what's happened. The vast majority will have no direct say in the outcomes that affect them directly. We don't think that's right and we don't think it will help them in any particular way.But then when it comes to the ratification in clause 140 and following and the entitlement to vote—the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is not required as far as I can see to consider each vote cast; they just have to take a little sample of the votes. I don't quite know how the Minister thinks that would reassure people. So if you had a vote that was close and you had you know a thousand different employees trying to agree to this or 2000 employees you actually do need to have quite a process in place to ensure that you get a democratic outcome. So the first thing I want to know is a response from the Minister as to the extent to which he's satisfied that MBIE will have the time and patience and ability to verify those votes rather than just taking the word of both sides and a swift sort of sample because I don't think that that is sufficient to do the job properly. Then when it comes to—actually I'll leave it there for the time being and I'll come back to it."