Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:625;Page:20150] 
4.  
Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Does she still have confidence in her Minister of Immigration given that a former Iraqi official of Saddam Hussein’s regime was allowed to enter New Zealand yet he will not name him in spite of there being a revocation of his visitor permit? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why when her Minister and officials were told it was a person who had been a Minister in Saddam Hussein’s regime did they produce someone who had been a diplomat and never was a Minister—in short they went out for a wolf and brought back a rabbit? Why have we got the wrong person in this answer from the Minister of Immigration? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: If the member has evidence of a former Minister being present he should come forward because I can say that this Government would not knowingly admit or allow to stay such a person—but we require evidence. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well which part of this evidence fits the man whom she claims alongside her Minister to have found: a former Iraqi Minister for Agriculture and Agrarian Reform a former delegate to the Food and Agriculture Organization and Unesco (Baghdad) who came here on a UN passport only about a month ago and who consulted for example with the lawyers of one Ahmed Zaoui—already costing this country $2 million—McLeod and Associates? Which one of those facts fits the man whom she has found? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: None. I ask the member to give us his evidence. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why would the Prime Minister keep in place a Minister who makes all sorts of claims about national security yet cannot name to enlist the help of New Zealanders and of Western society in general the person he claims to have found? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: There are very good reasons for not putting such names in the public arena and I think that for at least one of those reasons the member would have some sympathy. Once the name of someone who is a refugee status claimant goes into the public arena the fact that the name is in the public arena can actually lead to a successful claim. The member will recall that one of the problems with the Zaoui case was that Mr Zaoui’s name was put into the public arena and that then had weight in the refugee status application. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I ask the Prime Minister whether this is her quote which she said at a Pacific round table on counter-terrorism: “The problem to be confronted in our region is not so much that terrorists will seek to attack the citizens or institutions of Pacific countries; it is rather that the Pacific might present a tempting target either for an attack like the one on Bali or as a base from which terrorist cells might undertake the planning and groundwork for an attack somewhere else.”; so why is she now showing no leadership on this issue by not demanding that the man be named? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: What I am asking is that the member provides any information he has about such a person to the authorities so that we can act on it—because we will. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: When last week the information was given to this Government that there was such a person in New Zealand—a former Saddam Hussein Cabinet Minister—and that he had been in this country for a month would that not have been enough information for the Prime Minister or any half-way competent surveillance service to be able to find this man; why is this Government so incompetent? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Following the member’s statements last week extensive checks were made in respect of Iraqi passport holders. Mr Peters today has told the House that these people this person whatever are UN passport holders. We would be grateful to have more information from him. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I ask the Prime Minister why she has been giving assurances in this country and abroad as has Mr Goff on anti-terrorism legislation and as has the Minister of Immigration on the lines for example of having an Advance Passenger Screening system when this man as Mr Swain has acknowledged entered abroad gave voluntarily information and was still not picked up? What sort of circus is running on in this country under her leadership? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I am not sure whether Mr Peters is referring to the case where Mr Swain has revoked the visa application or the one that Mr Peters is referring to today. In respect of the one where the visa has been revoked clearly there were problems in the immigration systems and they will be fixed to the best of the Government’s ability. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Prime Minister mean to tell the country that despite all the assurances and blandishments made since September 11 2001 she is not aware of Amer Mahdi al-Khashali also known as Amer Mahdi Saleh Khashaly a former Minister for Agriculture and Agrarian Reform in the Saddam Hussein Government at the same time that hundreds of thousands of Kurds were losing their lives under a regime of genocide; does she mean to tell me she still does not know that this person is living in this country and has been for over a month now? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: If such a person arrived on a UN passport he would not necessarily trigger any concern. I thank the member for now putting that evidence before us and we will be following it up. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Does the Prime Minister recall being advised at the security intelligence committee which she chairs of the need to take seriously the issue of terrorism in this country as one that she should focus new resources on and to start trawling through some of the applications in the way that other countries have done; and is it not a fact that she has not done a damned thing since she was given that advice by namely myself? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As the member is a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee he will know that expenditure in this area has been among the fastest-growing areas of Government expenditure because of this Government’s determination to play a part in the international effort against terrorism. Now that Mr Peters has given details checks will be made about this individual. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Coming back to my original question how can the Minister be a hard-working and conscientious Minister when he does not have the remotest idea of which Arab—Osama bin Laden or anybody else—may be in this country where he might be or what he is doing here? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member will be aware that there are individuals who go to considerable lengths to cheat immigration authorities worldwide so that they can enter countries and I would venture to say that no system is foolproof against that. 
Stephen Franks 
: Can the Prime Minister explain whether she will be checking the competence of her Minister of Immigration as he has apparently ordered another man “outski” on the next plane with no further inquiry after that man came here openly and apparently lawfully—his offence apparently being that he represented his country while the wrong thug was in charge—yet the Government cannot get rid of Ahmed Zaoui a proven associate of terrorists although it started trying 2 years ago? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I can say that information was received about the gentleman whose visitor visa Mr Swain has seen to it was revoked that would mean that he should not have been given rollovers of his visitor visa. I can also confirm because I am not talking about a source within the SIS that that information came from another source and was incriminating. The slip in the system was that it was not linked with the file at an earlier stage. In respect of the comparison the member is trying to draw with the Zaoui case I can say that if the man whose visitor visa has now been revoked decides to put in refugee status claim applications no doubt the legal industry will be very busy trying to draw the case out as it has done with Mr Zaoui. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Madam Speaker— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The member has had his supplementary questions—in fact he has had one more. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Given the fact I have waited a week for some disclosure on this matter— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Is the member seeking leave? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: —hang on; I want members to know why I am seeking leave—and because I and the media have been given the name of the wrong person I seek leave to ask one more supplementary question. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to ask a question. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The member may ask the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Is it true in regard to the Prime Minister’s “hard-working and conscientious” Minister of Immigration that we have 20000 overstayers in New Zealand today and that we have somewhere in New Zealand 400 people who came here with false missing or misleading travel documentation and whose whereabouts the Minister does not know? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Of course there are overstayers in New Zealand—there were when the gentleman was Deputy Prime Minister—and every effort is made to get rid of them. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. There was a simple request as to whether it is true that we have 400 people missing in New Zealand who came here with false missing or misleading travel documentation and of whose whereabouts the Minister is not aware. Is that true or not? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: The Prime Minister addressed that question by saying as I recall that efforts were made to track down overstayers as there always have been. That addressed the question. It may not be the answer the member wanted but it did address the question. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry but I have ruled on that point. Is this a different point of order? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: You might have but with respect an overstayer may be someone who has been here with legal documentation which has expired. I am talking about someone who is here illegally from day one. There are 400 of them as the Minister has admitted in the past. I want to know whether the Prime Minister still believes that is true. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As the member knows every year numbers of people come to New Zealand who have tried to put their passports down the toilet in the plane or to do a variety of other things. Actually the trend is down and I think it would be rather down on what it was in the 1990s. Also I heard Mr Peters in one of his asides during an earlier question assert that half Saddam Hussein’s cabinet was here. I have no evidence of that but if he would like to provide it we are happy to look at it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. When in my prior questions did I make that statement? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I have no recollection of that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: The Prime Minister is required to be terse and to the point. That is what the Standing Orders say. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: It is a rhetorical question. The member knows that. Will he please be seated. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I will have my point of order made without interruption from you. If you do not mind Madam Chair— 
Madam SPEAKER 
: You may make your point of order. Please make it. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Can I make my point of order without your constant interruptions? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am inviting you to make it so please do that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Please can I make it without your interrupting me every 5 seconds? 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Yes by all means. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Well thank you for the courtesy overdue as it may be. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I ask the member to withdraw that. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I withdraw and apologise. Can I now have my point of order heard in silence? Madam Chair where in that statement from the Prime Minister was there any evidence that it was a repetition of something I had said? If it was not then why did you not check her as you would any other person in this House who was detouring from the requirements of the Standing Orders? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Speaking to the point of order I want to say I made it quite clear that Mr Peters had made the comment in an aside. It was made as he was sitting down after one of his constant interventions. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Has the Immigration Service check of appropriate files revealed any other Iraqi immigrants of interest—in particular any ranking officials who may in fact have gained refugee status in New Zealand? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The check has been of those who have had applications in the system over the past year or so which was relevant to the circumstances raised by Mr Peters. I do not know of anything else that has come to light in the course of that check. I do not have any advice on whether others have slipped through the net in past years. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I do so in order to be helpful and to clarify matters. Mr Peters has named an alleged Minister of the Iraqi Government. He said his name but it might save some confusion if he were to take leave and spell it out. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: I am sorry but that is not a point of order. To assist the member I am sure the correct spelling will be in the record when in fact there is the opportunity to look at the  
Hansard 
. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek leave to spell out the name so that the officials might do something in the next few days to find this man. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to spell out the name. Is there any objection? Yes there is so the name will not be spelt out. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. My concern is this: if the name goes out misspelt it could be that the wrong person is named. I think it is fair if a person is to be named that we want it to be accurate. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave was sought. Would the member please sit down. 
Rodney Hide 
: I want to explain it. I think that if the member puts the leave again he might get accepted because the danger is that if the name is misspelt or misheard we could have the wrong person being named. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave was sought by the member to spell the name. We will try it again for the final time. Leave is sought to spell the name. Is there any objection? 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: No no. I seek leave to table a document that has on it the name of this former Minister of Saddam’s regime. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.