Webb DuncanDEPUTY SPEAKER: Good evening members. Before the dinner break we were discussing the Appropriation (2024/25 Estimates) Bill and the amendments proposed to it. The next call is a Labour Party split call and I see Dr Duncan Webb on his feet.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): Standing on my feet waiting. I am excited—well no I'm not excited about this because it's been quite disappointing to listen to the vacuous speeches of the other side who can't really tell us what they are doing with the Estimates. We heard all kinds of personal information but nothing really about what plan this Government has. Because certainly the justice sector the Estimates of this Government are going to be spent on things that have tried and failed already and that's really quite disappointing.I mean really this Government has TikTok policies for justice because you only have to go—and I do go online and look at the members and the Ministers in the justice sector and see what they're saying and they're full of three-line slogans but no policy and no real evidence. We heard the Minister stand up today and talk about the millions of dollars being spent on so-called military-style youth academies or boot camps. The true irony of announcing boot camps in a week when we're getting a report on abuse in State care—I cannot believe that they haven't joined the dots and realised that an authoritarian and oppressive disciplinary regime in respect of young people leads to trauma and harm. It's been tried and it's failed.Now the irony is that as the Minister stood up and talked about military-style youth academies and the fact that they're going to get them out of bed at such and such a time in the morning there was nothing military about it. So they seem to have not only called it a military-style youth academy but they've in fact backed away. We know the military want nothing to do with it and good on them as well.It's so frustrating because we saw the Opposition as they were then go into the election with their crime and justice policies that you could have written on the back of an envelope. But they are utterly without evidential foundations boot camps. Three strikes; another failed policy which will cost—and I've asked and been told by the Minister—tens of millions of dollars.Now on Q+A recently the Minister actually was quite clear that he wasn't doing this to deter criminals; he just wanted to put more people inside. He just wanted more people in jail. Because if you put enough people in jail well eventually all the bad ones will be in jail and there'll be no crime—another failed policy. Look to be perfectly honest if this is how you're going to spend your money by building prisons and putting people in jail then you couldn't make a better design to create social and justice problems in the long run. We know that broken families cause crime that families with a person in jail are more likely for a child to grow up and be in jail and that the educational outcomes the financial outcomes for those families they will be adverse and be more likely to result in criminal offending. We should be attacking those causes of crime. They're the real causes of crime and this Government is simply taking a clickbait approach.Te Ao Mārama the initiatives of the court which are working which are taking young people at the earliest opportunity and shifting them away from the conveyor belt of court trial prison and return again—now those programmes that the courts have been initiating have been put on hold by this Government cutting the budget for them while they have a think about it.Circuit-breaker the initiative that we put in place has not been extended as planned. Why? Because that Government's more interested in spending money on putting in people in prison rather than evidence-based proven things that work. It's a sad day when we come and talk about a Government whose idea of a good spend of money is building prison beds.