McClay ToddHon TODD McCLAY (National—Rotorua): Kris Faafoi as a Minister started this many many years ago and today as a formerly hard-working constituent MP for Mana he is retiring. Can I say to that member Barbara Edmonds that she should be as hard-working as he was and retire as well because that was an appalling speech. All that we actually see from the Government is a desire from Government backbench MPs to read their notes but not to actually have any understanding of what it means. That member said that the Labour Party stands up for consumers but she forgot to say by making everything more expensive" and that's the problem here. The Financial Markets Authority (FMA) and the Reserve Bank did do an investigation. They did not find systemic problems in this area in New Zealand. They said that there are things that might be or could be addressed but they didn't say that there is a huge gap that insurance companies and banks and others are taking advantage of and that there are consumers up and down New Zealand who are being ripped off. But I tell you where they are being ripped off again and again and again: it's by this Government who believes that the very best way to show that they are hard-working is to pass more rules and more regulations that cost money that are passed on to those consumers. If you think about that Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act (CCCFA) legislation—and this same Minister stood in this House last year and gave an absolute guarantee and assurance that the legislation was necessary and needed and that it would protect the consumer and it would make sure that lenders weren't taking advantage of them all up and down the country—well actually it's the Government that's taking advantage of them with that legislation because that Minister was wrong and we find now that the banks and others and the lenders have had to interpret the Government's desire to make the consumers safer when they want to borrow and guess what? So many of them are not getting to borrow any more in New Zealand because the legislation the Minister stood behind and said was good and wouldn't harm has meant that banks have got to go and have a look and see whether people are buying fish and chips we even find and can they afford that mortgage? Mortgages they could have afforded before they no longer get loans for and they don't get their homes. Hon Dr David Clark: What about this bill?Hon TODD McCLAY: I think this legislation is exactly the same. The members opposite say "What about this bill?" Well we just heard the Minister in every stage of this legislation supported by backbench MPs who are reading their notes saying that this is necessary. The Minister just days ago in this House gave examples of insurance companies selling insurance policies and taking premiums for people who were not alive. That's fraudulent. It's already illegal in New Zealand—you can't act fraudulently. We have laws everywhere to deal with this. This legislation doesn't fix that. You can't make something that's already fraudulent more fraudulent. All you do by creating more legislation and more regulation is add costs up and down the country. I do want to say though to the Minister that he is working very very hard. He is bringing a lot of legislation to the House but bringing in more legislation doesn't mean you're doing your job properly. The Hon Dr David "Red Tape" Clark is actually a moniker that he will develop and get because he brings red tape and regulation again and again and again and it is not free. It does actually cost and it is costing the consumer. Actually if you think about it we just had debates throughout New Zealand about the cost of living and everything the Government is involved in costs more from food to petrol to rent to mortgages and to insurance and in this case it makes it worse not better. Now if the Minister came here and said there are systemic problems in New Zealand as they have found in other parts of the world—in Australia—and we have huge numbers of New Zealanders that have been taken advantage of and we're going to change this there will be a saving for them and actually products that they rely upon will be cheaper well then that would be a good thing. But I'm not sure there's a single thing this Minister or this Government has done in 4½ years in passing legislation that has made it cheaper for the consumer and this certainly won't do that. All you've got to do is go and talk to the banks themselves the businesses around the country and actually everyday consumers who want to do things about where their greatest grievance is and it's always more and more regulation. You see if you focus on solving a problem and hold those to account that are causing the problem well that's one thing. But actually this is a burden that is placed upon every single institution in New Zealand and there is a cost to that. There will be institutions that don't come anywhere near the issue that the Minister is trying to solve and it's not overly apparent that it is a big problem in New Zealand but if all you're doing is creating legislation and bureaucracy and red tape which means they employ more people and they take more time away from being productive and you don't actually solve a problem because there wasn't a big one there to start with there is cost. Members opposite say "Well actually it doesn't matter about that." but all they've got to do is go and have a little look at what's happening around consumer confidence in New Zealand and actually the number one issue at the moment which is the cost of living for almost every single household. They don't realise that it's legislation like this as well meaning as it seems that is part of the reason that everything—everything—has become more expensive in New Zealand.Minister you didn't give good examples of what the actual problem was. You talked a lot about overseas previously and you talked a lot about Australia and you said that there had been investigations everywhere. But the Reserve Bank and the FMA did not find a systemic problem. They did not say that actually there is a huge issue here in New Zealand. It's not so much that this is a solution looking for a problem; this is a Government looking for things to do so that they seem to be busy and doing things but more government is not always good government because it comes at a cost.We are opposing this for the same reason actually I believe we should have opposed the CCCFA. We shouldn't have taken the Minister at his word that it was a good piece of legislation and it would help. We shouldn't have taken him at his word when he said that it would only focus on the parts of the industry that were harming people because it has done a lot of harm across New Zealand to many people who now find either they actually can't get the bank loans they need or the cost of those bank loans has gone up because of the long bureaucratic processes and information they must provide for the banks to make decisions that were easy previously and I fear this will be exactly the same thing.So when consumers call up the financial institution their banks or the insurance company and say "I want a new piece of insurance please Mr Insurance Co." well the cost is going to be greater once this legislation enters into force than it was before this Government started this process and the reason for that is that there is extra cost being placed upon business and it always gets passed on to the consumer. It's never the Government that meets it; it's passed on to the consumer.Finally in respect of this I would ask the Minister actually—and the last speaker said it—not to rely upon a revision clause you put in legislation in five years' time because actually it will be too late in five years' time to reimburse the extra cost that's been placed upon the consumer as a result of this. There is always in good legislation the opportunity to do a review at a point in the future. But we shouldn't say "Well actually there's no systemic problem here." We're not like other parts of the world. W we haven't really identified actually much challenge. There will be people acting fraudulently but guess what! That's already covered by law in New Zealand. So we're going to create a whole lot more regulation and cost to place on the consumer and take time away from our financial institutions from being productive—because productive institutions work well and don't have unnecessary costs that have to be passed on—and say "But don't worry if we've got it wrong we'll go back and review it in five years' time."Well with the CCCFA legislation the Minister has already said that there's going to have to be some changes. It's not five years later; it's not even a year later and the Minister actually should be getting these through the House as quickly as he can and not taking his time because every single day people that want to borrow and who can afford those loans are finding it more difficult than they should or more costly than it needs to be to get their loan and sadly—as far as this legislation's concerned; as well meaning as it is—the same will be the case. There's extra cost without any real clear benefit for the consumer.Governments have to legislate—we get that—but Governments should do less not more and actually in this case they are doing not less but more cost upon the consumer. We'll see much more of this."