Volume 622 Week 76 - Tuesday 7 December 2004 
Volume 622 Week 76 - Tuesday 7 December 2004 
[Volume:622;Page:17421] 
Tuesday 7 December 2004 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Visitors 
Parliamentarians for Global Action—26th Annual Forum 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have much pleasure in informing members that participants in the Parliamentarians for Global Action’s 26th Annual Forum and Consultative Assembly on the International Criminal Court and the Rule of Law are within the precincts of this Chamber. There are over 130 members of Parliament from 60 countries attending and I am sure that members would wish they be welcomed. 
Points of Order 
Assistant Speaker Simich—Ruling Questioned by Member 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I want to raise with you a point of order about questioning the decisions of the Speaker. We in the ACT party were surprised by this and I am sure that other parties will be surprised as well. On 2 December the Hon Jim Sutton wrote you a letter questioning the decision made by the Assistant Speaker Mr Clem Simich. It is a longstanding convention that a Speaker’s decision cannot be questioned. As I read the letter it definitely questions the ruling of Assistant Speaker Simich. Not only that it is written in a way that carries a veiled threat from a Minister of the Crown to the Speaker. 
I notice that the letter states that the Minister approached the Clerk about what he considered to be a failure to have his honour protected. The Clerk advised that there was a proper procedure to follow. The Minister certainly was not advised that the proper procedure was to write a private letter to the Speaker questioning the judgment of an Assistant Speaker. I make the point that we learnt of this letter only because Mr Sutton’s office inadvertently sent it to Mr Eckhoff and then— 
Simon Power 
: Outrageous! 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I did not hear any word said that was outrageous. [ 
Interruption 
] If there is any more interjection the member will leave. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: The letter was sent to Mr Gerrard Eckhoff and Mr Sutton’s secretary tried to retrieve it. Mr Eckhoff then wrote to you about what he considered to be an abuse of the process. You wrote back on 6 December and said that you actually encourage this! 
We would like to know when it became a rule of the House that when a Minister is upset with a decision of an Assistant Speaker he or she can write a private communication to the Speaker complaining about it. I would like to know just how many of these letters you have had and whether you intend this process to continue. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members are perfectly at liberty to write to me and I have been written to often by many members. I have replied to Mr Eckhoff. 
Hon RICHARD PREBBLE (ACT) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I presume this is about this matter. 
Hon RICHARD PREBBLE 
: It is about this matter. I am interested to hear that many members write you letters. As it is a matter of interest to the House I invite you to table them all. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will not be doing that. 
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am not taking this any further. I have made my ruling. 
RODNEY HIDE 
: I seek the leave of the House to table the Hon Jim Sutton’s letter to you Mr Eckhoff’s letter to you and the letter that you wrote in reply to Mr Eckhoff. 
Documents by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Ahmed Zaoui—Birthday 
ROD DONALD (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I seek leave to move a non-debatable non-controversial motion that this House extend its best wishes to Ahmed Zaoui on his 44th birthday. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is. [ 
Interruption 
] Those balloons will now be removed. The point has been made and the balloons will be removed or the member will be too. 
Hon KEN SHIRLEY (Whip—ACT) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You asked that the balloon be removed. I take it you meant removed from the Chamber— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Removed from my sight. 
Hon KEN SHIRLEY 
:—because could it not burst and cause some alarm? It is still here in the Chamber. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have now had enough. In the presence of so many distinguished parliamentarians I think that some people’s conduct is a little bit silly today. That point has been made. The balloons will not be shown here. If there is any noise the members concerned will leave the Chamber. 
Questions to Ministers 
Security—New Zealand Law 
1. DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Is she confident that New Zealand law is sufficient to ensure our national security is protected; if not what action is she willing to take to rectify this situation? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 The Government has undertaken many initiatives including passing new laws to enhance national security particularly since September 11. In respect of the law governing certificates of security risk that law was passed in 1998 with a view to enhancing national security. I await the outcome of court processes to see whether the design of that legislation is sufficiently robust. 
Dail Jones 
: Will the Prime Minister as Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service act with urgency to ensure that the person Mr Zaoui whom the Security Intelligence Service regards as a national security risk is deported when that is found to be the case—as it was in several European nations—or is it the case that the Government has been wrong all along in its assessment of Ahmed Zaoui? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The Government as such has not determined that Mr Zaoui should be the subject of a certificate. That is a statutory decision made by the Director of Security. As I have said on many occasions I regard the protracted procedures around this matter as quite unsatisfactory and when the Zaoui case is complete there will certainly be a review of the law. 
Keith Locke 
: Does the Prime Minister not agree that in our country rather than the security risk certificate being a statutory decision of the Security Intelligence Service the SIS has no powers and it was the Minister who put the security risk certificate into effect on the advice of the Security Intelligence Service because our service has only an advisory role and that the Minister can lift that security risk certificate at any time so why does the Minister not do so? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There were four questions there. Two may be answered. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I do not think the member is particularly conversant with Part 4A of the Immigration Act. The director on his own statutory authority issued the certificate. The Minister of Immigration made a preliminary decision to rely on it while processes relating to its review were put in place. The length of time around those processes is completely unsatisfactory and I would not think that was envisaged when the law was passed in 1998. That is why there must be a review when the matter is concluded. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Does the Prime Minister believe that Ahmed Zaoui is a risk to national security; yes or no? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: On no occasion have I offered an opinion on the substance of this case and I will not be doing so in the House today. 
Stephen Franks 
: If Mr Zaoui is being held to protect our national security why does the Prime Minister not call on our long tradition of cross-party unity on matters of national security to pass law now to fill the gap that the Supreme Court claims to have held; and if she does not is she simply putting the Supreme Court’s ambitions ahead of our national security? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: As I have always said at the end of this case whenever it is concluded there will be a review and I look forward to the ACT party’s collaboration on that at that time. What is clear in the Zaoui case is that the Government has always acted on legal advice. The Supreme Court has invoked what it calls an inherent jurisdiction. The Government does not have an inherent jurisdiction—it can only administer the law as it is advised that it stands. 
Dail Jones 
: Why then if the Prime Minister is not satisfied that the law is sufficient are we in a situation where an issue of national security is being left up to a fledgling and largely untested final court of our judicial system to sort out when it is clear that as the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service she should hold the ultimate responsibility for issues of national security and act before that final decision is made? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I do not think that would be a sensible procedure. I have long signalled that I do not believe that the processes around Part 4A work satisfactorily. They are taking far too long. It is also clear to me that we need as a Parliament to be much more specific and precise with legislation from this time forth. 
Peter Brown 
: Is it not a fact that the Government in order to divert media and public attention from the Zaoui case and its own disastrous handling of it is introducing the Civil Union Bill and pushing it through under urgency so that the media with some mishap will not notice that Zaoui is about to be released? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The only suggestion that would be funnier than that would be if Mr Zaoui were about to apply for a civil union. 
Peter Brown 
: In noting Rod Donald’s motion earlier on I seek leave to make a recommendation to the Minister of Finance that he buys Mr Zaoui a one-way ticket to anywhere he wants to go that it is non-returnable and for anybody who wants to take him— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought for that direction. Is there any objection? There is. 
Adoption—Same-sex Couples 
2.  
MURRAY SMITH (United Future) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Justice 
: Is the Government intending to introduce legislation to allow same-sex couples to adopt children; if so why? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Justice) 
: 
 No no change has been considered at this time. 
Murray Smith 
: Is it the Minister’s view that those who adopt children should be in a stable relationship and if so does he believe that a civil union would be akin to marriage in that respect? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I do believe that those applying to adopt children should be in stable and responsible relationships but there are a number of inconsistencies in our current adoption law that do need to be addressed at some time. 
Moana Mackey 
: Will the Civil Union Bill or the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill have an impact on who can adopt a child? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: No the Civil Union Bill and the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill contain no references to and therefore do not change who is legally eligible to adopt a child. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Is the Minister aware of the statement by Labour MP Georgina Beyer that she wants new laws to specifically recognise transgender people and not just men and women in New Zealand; and is that the next stage of social engineering that we can expect from this Labour Government? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: I am aware of my colleague’s statement. This Government however is not involved in social engineering. I would say though in regard to adoption that substantive reviews of New Zealand adoption laws were initiated but discontinued in 1979 1987 1988 and 1990. One day we may be able to address that issue responsibly. 
Dail Jones 
: Is the Minister seriously trying to tell the House that in the event of the Civil Union Bill being passed those parties—men and men and women and women—will not rely on the new legislation to try to convince a court that their status has been approved by Parliament and that that gives them a better opportunity to adopt children? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Yes. 
Murray Smith 
: Why has the Government not considered the issue of adoption given the Government’s commitment to amend all remaining laws that cause unfair discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity? 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE 
: Our predecessor in Government National did ask the Law Commission to do some work on this matter and subsequently the Government Administration Committee has also addressed the issue. That work however is not on the Ministry of Justice’s 2004-05 work programme and nor has it been considered by Cabinet. 
Taxation—Reduction 
3.  
Dr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: Can she confirm that she has refused to rule out tax cuts before the next election as reported in the  
Press 
; if so why? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 Yes; to eliminate any possibility of the flip-flops for which the member is becoming known. 
Murray Smith 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question specifically asked the Minister why the Government was not going to amend the legislation. His answer simply was to restate that the Government was not planning to amend it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Quite obviously the member has not been listening. We have now moved on to the next question and the substantive answer has already been given. The member should be much more prompt than that. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Can the Prime Minister tell the House why when the Government accounts showed a surplus of almost $7.5 billion last year and are headed for a similar surplus this year her Minister of Finance is using speeches to argue against the prospect of relief for New Zealand taxpayers? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The member well knows that that is not a cash surplus. The member also well knows that this Government runs strong Budgets not the sort of voodoo economics borrow and hope and tax slashing that the National Party stands for. 
Peter Brown 
: How does the Prime Minister justify such a huge surplus and still want to increase tax on petrol by 5c come next April? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The increases in petrol tax of course are designed to go to land transport provision which is very important at this time. 
Rodney Hide 
: Has she received any reports on what tax rate cuts should be given priority if there were to be any tax cuts; if not why not? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: No and nor do I intend to start writing the Budget during question time today. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Does the Prime Minister recall signing off in 1999 a commitment that there would be no rise in income tax for the 95 percent of taxpayers earning under $60000 a year; if so will she ensure that that commitment is fulfilled by adjusting the income tax bands for inflation from $9500 to $10750 from $38000 to $43000 and from $60000 to $68000? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Yes and no. 
Dr Don Brash 
: If a $7.5 billion surplus is not enough to justify substantial tax relief can the Prime Minister tell the House just how big a surplus her Government would need to run before New Zealand taxpayers could look forward to some tax relief? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: It is a matter of record that this year’s Budget provides very substantial targeted relief for 300000 working families—the priority of this Government. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Would the Prime Minister’s answer of “no” to the second part of my earlier question be changed if she was aware that in this House just a few weeks ago her Minister of Finance confirmed that if the tax brackets are not adjusted for inflation tax is in fact being increased in real terms—which would be a breach of her 1999 commitment? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: The short answer to the second part of that question is that no it would not. But I point out to the member that tax cuts equal spending. When a Budget is drawn up one works out what is the best area to spend in. This year’s Budget which has implications for the next 2 years as well clearly made the priority New Zealand’s 300000 hard-working families with children. They are our priority. 
Dr Don Brash 
: Can the Prime Minister recall suggesting that her Government would run a Budget surplus of 1 percent of GDP and how then does she justify the surplus now approaching 5 percent of GDP? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: By the magnificent economic stewardship of this Government. 
Gordon Copeland 
: I seek the leave of the House to table the Prime Minister’s 1999 commitment stating that there would be no tax increases for those earning under $60000. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Is the Prime Minister willing to comment on the widely held belief that she is encouraging her coalition allies the Progressives and United Future to call for tax cuts as this Government realises that it is simply not credible to ask for re-election with a surplus of $7.5 billion; and that there will be tax cuts next year—something that we all know is coming? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Of course I am willing to comment in response to the member’s question. The suggestion that other support parties have been lined up to make certain suggestions has no substance. 
Aged-care and Disability Services—Funding 
4.  
SUE BRADFORD (Green) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Health 
: Does she accept that there is “evidence of chronic underfunding of the aged-care and disability sectors” as reported by the Health Committee; if so what is she doing about it? 
Hon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister of Health) 
: 
 Funding of the aged-care and disability sectors has been a longstanding issue. While this Government has injected extra funds into those areas I accept that the issues are not yet resolved. However I am committed to continuing to work with the sectors to see that they are resolved. 
Sue Bradford 
: What more is the Minister doing than that in the light of The Salvation Army’s announcement last week that it is pulling out of the sector and given there is an emergency community meeting taking place in Pahiatua tonight where its charity-run 56-bed Waireka rest home faces imminent closure? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The Salvation Army announced on Monday 29 November that it was selling 12 of its residential centres as going concerns that the residents would not be moved and that the provisions it is putting in place would mean that all those residents and indeed future residents can be confident of the quality of their care. 
Steve Chadwick 
: What has been the rate of increase in Government funding in the aged-care and disability sectors over recent years and how does that compare with previous years? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: In the 4 years from June 2000 to June 2004 disability support services funding which includes aged-care funding increased by an average of $73.4 million a year. That is an average of $13.5 million more extra funding per year than was provided in the previous 4 years during the late 1990s. 
Sandra Goudie 
: Why should people such as the Stephens who are unable to get their son David the secure care he needs because of funding issues or those people in the Hutt Valley who have had their respite-care hours slashed in half have faith in this Minister to do anything for them when she has sat here on her hands for months while more problems occur? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Unless the member has some extraordinarily new information David Stephens is satisfactorily housed to both his level of satisfaction and that of his parents. 
Barbara Stewart 
: Does the Government intend to act upon the Health Committee’s recommendation that the aged-care workforce be compensated for travel expenses and travel time; if so when will this take effect and if not why not? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: We are still considering the recommendations of the select committee. 
Judy Turner 
: What progress if any has the Government made to fulfil the Health Committee’s recommendation to ensure fully funded foundation skills training for sector caregivers and what is the deadline for funding of this training? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: The Government is still considering the recommendations of the select committee. 
Sue Kedgley 
: Is the Minister aware that if travel time from job to job and vehicle costs are included home-care workers get paid on average only $5.11 an hour and why is a Labour Government allowing a situation to continue where about 20000 mostly female workers are being paid significantly less than the adult minimum wage and are effectively subsidising the cost of home-based care from their own meagre Third World wages? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: Yes I am aware of that information but only because surveys of the workforce were instigated under the Quality and Safety Project. Prior to that we had no such information. 
Sue Bradford 
: What is the Minister’s response to the Fair Share for Aged Care joint union campaign that is being launched in Wellington today and what steps will she be taking to ensure that issues like staff turnover of up to 80 percent and a great disparity between hospital and residential-care wages are met before the industry simply collapses altogether? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: I welcome the input of unions as I always have. 
Sue Bradford 
: Is the Minister concerned that the increasing reluctance of the community sector to provide residential care will leave the industry solely in the hands of private sector companies which in some cases are more interested in capital gains from property than in the welfare of residents and staff and what is her Government doing to stop the wholesale privatisation of this sector? 
Hon RUTH DYSON 
: No I am not because I am confident that the standards that are required in the contract will ensure that regardless of the provider of the service the appropriate level of care will be received by the residents. 
Sandra Goudie 
: I seek leave to table a press release dated 1 December 2004 “Hutt Valley families feel the strain of care cuts.” 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that press release. Is there any objection? There is. 
Sandra Goudie 
: I seek leave to table “No place to turn for Kimberley resident” a press release regarding David Stephens. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is. 
Sandra Goudie 
: I seek leave to table a letter from Mr and Mrs Stephens to the Hon Ruth Dyson expressing incredible concern about the placement of their son. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology—Enrolment Evaluation 
5.  
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) 
: Does he stand by his August statement regarding enrolments at Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology that “the commission will now be evaluating those enrolments and I hope we arrive at a situation where the polytechnic does pay more money back.”; if so what progress has been made with that evaluation over the last 4 months? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)) 
: 
 Yes I do stand by my statement. The Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology gave a clear public commitment in August that it would work with the Tertiary Education Commission to undertake a robust evaluation of the learner experience with the COOL IT programme. But I am not happy with the lack of progress and nor is the Tertiary Education Commission which is making that clear to the institute. I expect action in the immediate future. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why has the Minister repeatedly given Parliament the impression that the Government is evaluating up to 13000 potentially bogus enrolments whereas the Tertiary Education Commission wrote to the Christchurch polytech in August stating: “The TEC understands there is no legal basis for a request to undertake such an evaluation.” and “The TEC does not see this evaluation as a device for challenging past CPIT funding claims.”; and therefore why are officials saying there is no basis for having an evaluation and that they will not be asking for the money back when the Minister is saying in Parliament that he is? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I have repeatedly said there is an ethical question here. Public money must be accounted for properly. That means there needs to be an assurance that the enrolments at the Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology that were publicly funded were funded properly and accounted for properly. To the extent that they were not there is an obligation for that money to come back and I am going to ensure that that is the course of action that takes place—immediately. 
Helen Duncan 
: What measures have been taken to ensure the problems about accountability for public money that arose in relation to the Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology’s online computing programme do not occur again? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Funding for classification 5.1 has been capped. The rates have been cut. The Tertiary Education Commission has revised the funding guide—it was released on the website last week—to strengthen a number of requirements and make it clear that no inducements may be offered for publicly funded courses regardless of the source of funding for those inducements. Providers now need to retain evidence of learner engagement and the rules regarding early withdrawal from courses have been clarified. The Tertiary Education Commission has amended the equivalent full-time student calculation rate for the classification 5.1 courses comprised of self-directed learning to ensure that clarity and maintaining consistency with other courses are transparent for all to see. 
Hon Bill English 
: Why is it that when that $15 million scam has been publicly documented when there has been 18 months of bad publicity and when he has a $50 million bureaucracy in place to police the tertiary sector he has been able to do precisely nothing; and when will he stop giving the impression of a chihuahua savaging a wet lettuce leaf? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Apart from the last comment the rest of the question is in order. 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: I am happy the member thinks he is a wet lettuce leaf. That is what I think of him as too so he is fairly accurate there. It is important that the member understands these are autonomous organisations that have to be given the opportunity to show they are responsible for public money. This organisation has failed. The waiting is over. When the member gets back to his office he will find a press release that tells him exactly what is to happen. 
Hon Bill English 
: Can the Minister assure the House then that he will be recovering most of the $15 million that the Government paid to Christchurch Polytechnic for a course that enrolled 18000 people and that only 600 are known to have completed? Can he assure the House he will be getting money back? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: As I have told the member this is an ethical matter. Public money is involved and I will ensure that it is evaluated and accounted for. 
Modern Apprenticeships—Implementation 
6.  
NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Tainui) 
 to the  
Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education) 
: What recent reports has he received on the implementation of the Government’s Modern Apprenticeships programme? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)) 
: 
 Today I am able to announce that the updated figures on the Modern Apprenticeships programme mean we have reached a milestone of 7000 Modern Apprentices. In September 2004 there were 7088 Modern Apprentices 500 more than our original target. That is an increase of 20 percent in the last year. Two industries—building and construction and engineering—have reached the milestone of 1000 apprentices in place each and I compliment those industries. 
Nanaia Mahuta 
: Can the Minister confirm whether women and Maori and Pasifika peoples are well represented in the Modern Apprenticeships programme; if not what steps is the Government taking to improve their under-representation? 
Hon STEVE MAHAREY 
: Yes I can. Of the new apprentices 14.3 percent are Maori and there are now just over a thousand young Maori in the programme. Pacific Islanders’ enrolment in the Modern Apprenticeships programme has increased dramatically in the last quarter of last year and there has been a 30 percent increase in the enrolment of women in the last year. In addition there are three projects to be announced by the Tertiary Education Commission in the immediate future to address areas of under-representation in the Modern Apprenticeships programme in order to make sure everyone gets a fair share in that fantastic programme. 
Taxation—Household Income After Tax 
7.  
RODNEY HIDE (Leader—ACT) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: By how much has the average household income after tax increased in the 4 years since the 1999-2000 financial year and what does this after-tax increase equate to when adjusted for inflation? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 It is 10.1 percent the same as the increase in the consumer price index but Treasury noted that periods of high immigration and changes to household structure will tend to underestimate income growth. A more accurate measure is the average weekly wage which increased by 14.2 percent over the period while of course employment also increased by 11 percent. 
Rodney Hide 
: Can he confirm that Treasury’s figures show that the after-tax income for the average household increased by $4975 since 1999 but that when allowing for inflation of 10.1 percent that figure goes right down to zero so that the average household is no better off after tax in real terms than 4 years ago? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Treasury notes that in periods of high immigration and changes to household structure this measure will tend to underestimate income growth. For example in an elderly family when one person dies the household income falls. In a family with young people who are moving into tertiary education if they stay home household income goes up if they get a student allowance; if they leave home the two new households have an average much lower income than previously. 
John Key 
: Why is it fair that in the last 5 years the average Kiwi worker has seen his or her real after-tax income rise on a cumulative basis by around 4 percent when the real increase in the Crown income over the same period has been seven times greater than that at around 24 percent? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: That is very fair because employment has increased by 11 percent unemployment has dropped down to 3.8 percent and health and education expenditure have increased by around 24 percent to 25 percent which represents the social wage. 
Gordon Copeland 
: Would the after-tax income of the average household be further increased if couples with dependent children were permitted to split their income for tax purposes in line with United Future’s policy? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: Yes but the impact of that would be very differentiated according to the nature of the household income. People on higher incomes would tend to gain a great deal more—particularly people in a household with one high income—than people in households with two low incomes for example. What is more the Budget Policy Statement will show the operating surplus falling back to roughly the level required to fund contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund without the gross debt to GDP ratio rising over the long term. 
Rodney Hide 
: Can the Minister confirm that his own reworked figures from Treasury show that the average household is no better off in real terms after tax than it was 4 years ago but that the same average household is having to contribute an extra $3200 in real terms to the Government; or is it the case that he does not really care how households are getting along? 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN 
: I think that the opinion polls confirm that this Government not only cares about these matters but that the public appreciates the nature of that caring. I can confirm that Treasury figures based on a variety of different sources suggest relatively low growth in real after-tax household income but Treasury itself advises that immigration and changes in household structure mean that real growth has probably been higher than that. 
Auckland Motorways—Congestion 
8.  
Hon MARK GOSCHE (Labour—Maungakiekie) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: What is being done to ease congestion on Auckland’s motorways? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 A lot—for example tomorrow I will open stage one of a project to improve the city’s central motorway junction worth $56 million. Stage two a $140 million - project is already well under way and should be finished within 2 years. 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: How does expenditure on Auckland’s State highways compare with that in previous years? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: By next year annual funding of State highways in Auckland will have nearly doubled since the change of Government and annual expenditure on public transport will have trebled with Transfund spending in Auckland being comfortably over $1 million a day. The dismal years of neglect under the flip-flop gridlock National Party are now long gone. 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: Given that public-private partnerships were one of the most vaunted aspects of the Land Transport Management Act enacted over a year ago can this Minister detail to the House just one example of a roading project that has been funded and/or owned and/or operated by the private sector? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: No I cannot but we are open for business. 
Deborah Coddington 
: Why does the Government not ease Auckland’s motorway congestion by allowing Whenuapai airport to be a second commercial airport in Auckland; or is the Government delaying on that because it is putting the interests of its own airline a major objector to the airport ahead of the interests of the thousands of Aucklanders who are stuck on the motorways every day? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Current land transport analysis would suggest that the use of Whenuapai airport would neither help nor hinder land transport across the isthmus. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Can the Minister confirm that school walking buses and school travel plans are more cost effective than large motorways as a means of reducing car trips—and therefore congestion—in Auckland; if so what steps is he taking to promote them in the rest of the country? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I cannot reflect on cost effectiveness given that motorways do not reduce car trips; they induce them. But I can say that school walking buses are an extremely effective way of reducing congestion and they give school children a bit of physical education in a personally secure environment. 
Victim Support—Restructuring 
9.  
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay Of Plenty) 
 to the  
Minister of Justice 
: What feedback has he received on the restructuring of Victim Support? 
Hon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice) 
: 
 As an incorporated society and a non-governmental organisation the New Zealand Council of Victim Support Groups determines its own constitutional and organisational structure. I am advised however that the internal changes being made by that organisation are supported by the vast majority but not all of its member organisations. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is the Minister prepared to stand by while large numbers of long-time volunteers in places like North Shore west Auckland and Christchurch depart and what impact will that have on the services to victims in those areas? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I find it curious that a member of this House would want me to involve myself in the internal affairs of an incorporated society. The member has made an allegation that indicates that not all the groups affiliated to Victim Support approve of the restructuring. However I am informed that it was carried out constitutionally and by an overwhelming vote of the members of that organisation. 
Tim Barnett 
: What services does Victim Support provide in return for partial Government funding of the organisation? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: Victim Support provides an incredibly important support service for victims on a 24-hour-a-day 7-day-a-week basis. It works closely with the victims of crime. It visits victims and provides advocacy information support and counselling. For that we pay a little over half of its funding with the remainder of its funding derived from corporate support and the organisation’s own fund-raising efforts. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: Is the Minister convinced that his decision to allow money that is voted for victims to be spent on new managers will provide better services for victims and how will he know whether that occurs? 
Hon PHIL GOFF 
: I will answer the last question first. We will know whether that occurs because there is ongoing evaluation of the value for money that the Government gets from Victim Support as there is with any organisation it funds. The first part of the question relates to the professionalisation of the organisation. I am aware that Victim Support previously operated through 70 different local groups. That was a somewhat unwieldy structure and it has now been reduced to 14 which represents the number of police districts in the country. We will be closely evaluating the success of that in terms of the funding that we provide to the organisation. 
Tauranga Harbour Link Project—Tolls 
10.  
PETER BROWN (Deputy Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: What issues if any will be presented to the people of Tauranga for consultation with regard to any potential tolling of the Tauranga Harbour link project and what is the expected time frame for any such consultation? 
Hon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 The Tauranga City Council would lead such a consultation process in partnership with Transit so I suggest the member directs the question to the council. However I understand that consultation may well start before Christmas and run through into March of next year. 
Peter Brown 
: Will the Minister ensure that the consultation process informs the people of Tauranga exactly what any toll of the harbour link project will cover—that is whether it will cover the total infrastructure which is estimated at $190 million or just the local road component which is the bridge and which is estimated at $30 million? Will he ensure that the consultation process clarifies those issues? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: No. It is not my job to ensure that the consultation process starts off properly. It is my job to ensure that when the consultation process results are presented to me I am satisfied that it was up to scratch. 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: If the entry on to the harbour bridge is a State highway and the exit from the bridge is a State highway why is the bridge not a State highway? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Again the question is best directed to those responsible for designations—in this case Transit. However— 
Hon Tony Ryall 
: You’re the Minister. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Let the Minister at least finish his answer. 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: I will just say that I am not legally entitled to make such a designation but I will go on and say to the member that it is also the case that the designation does not influence the likelihood that the bridge would be built sooner with tolling and later without. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Has the Minister received any submission whatsoever from the member for Tauranga on the Tauranga Harbour link project; if so was that submission in support of the toll proposal opposed to the toll proposal or not clear? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: Yes I have. On the other hand I have not received a submission from the member who asked the question. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question was very clear and very specific. I asked whether the Minister has received a submission from the member for Tauranga and whether it was in support of or opposed to the toll proposal. The Minister made no attempt whatsoever to answer that question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: He started off by saying “Yes” which I think is certainly an answer. 
Larry Baldock 
: Can the Minister assure the House and the good people of Tauranga that if the consultation process were as shallow and as flawed as the original questioner has suggested when it came to the Minister giving his approval he would see that that issue was addressed properly? 
Hon PETE HODGSON 
: The member is absolutely correct. I am responsible under the Land Transport Management Act for ensuring prior to recommending approval of any tolling project that the project meets the objectives of the Act and that it has a high level of public support. 
Teaching—Information and Communication Technology 
11.  
LYNNE PILLAY (Labour—Waitakere) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: What steps is he taking to improve the use of information communication technology in teaching? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education) 
: 
 Through Project Probe we are investing $48 million to ensure that every school has access to broadband Internet which is something that is appreciated I think even more in some of the rural constituencies—a few held by the National Party—than in the cities. Over 23000 teachers have now picked up the offer to have laptops. We have 83 clusters of schools in the latest round of clustering for professional development. All this money comes in the group that Bill English says will be abolished. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Why is improved use of information and communications technology important? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Research is showing that information and communications technology has tremendous potential to improve teaching and learning outcomes. Getting it into rural areas into rural communities also makes those communities more secure and makes it more likely that people will want to stay in them. 
Hon Bill English 
: Is the Minister not aware that schools which are selling raffle tickets to pay for teachers are becoming more and more concerned that the ministry does not administer properly the hundreds of millions of dollars in education expenditure for which it is responsible? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I accept that some schools choose to use the flexibility given to them by this Government to use locally raised funds and operational funding to improve the ratios—over and above the 2500 extra teachers; over and above roll growth—that this Government has put in. Of course the National Party opposed that. 
Jim Peters 
: When will the Ministry of Education’s Project Probe despite what the Minister has said really demonstrate region by region online learning skill development and school collaboration as the Minister has just stated which were all objectives stated in each of the last 3 funding years? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: The member might have noticed that Project Probe is already making considerable inroads into schools around the country. I might say that some of the things he has described also relate to the need to have high-quality principals which is something there has been some progress on in Northland in the last 3 years. 
Hon Brian Donnelly 
: Is the Minister aware that a rural school with a roll of approximately 380 that is currently paying $500 per annum for a dial-up modem connection will have to pay $8000 to $9000 per annum for the full SchoolZone package which schools should have for the maximum benefit and what is he doing to make up the consequential shortfalls in their budgets? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think that the assumptions in the member’s question are slightly out of date. They might have been true. Relying on some principals who want to have a system designed for Rangitoto College in a very small school is not necessarily appropriate. 
Contaminated Sites—National Fund and Register 
12.  
SUE KEDGLEY (Green) 
 to the  
Minister for the Environment 
: Will she be heeding the call of the Sustainability Council for a greatly expanded national fund to pay for the clean-up of historic contaminated sites as well as a national register of sites and definitions of standards; if not why not? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 We are already working towards putting standards in place local government holds registers of contaminated sites and we will continue to review the adequacy of the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund. 
Sue Kedgley 
: Does she accept the Ministry for the Environment’s estimate that the clean-up of historic contaminated sites around New Zealand will cost around $1 billion and does she accept that the present annual allocation of only $2 million a year is not only woefully inadequate but will take at this rate about 500 years to clean up? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: No I do not accept the ministry’s estimate made in 1992 and 1995. 
David Parker 
: How has the Government demonstrated its commitment to dealing with contaminated sites? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: We have funded 13 projects to identify and remediate contaminated sites including $10 million to clean up Mapua and the Tui mine sites but the potential risks are not so threatening that the clean-up on all sites has to start tomorrow. I agree with what Jeanette Fitzsimons said when we allocated money towards contaminated sites in 2002: “Both the Green Party and the Government are passionate about starting the hard work on contaminated sites. This Budget project will not clean up all our problem sites but it will get us underway.” 
Peter Brown 
: Will the Minister be precise: how much will it cost when will it be started and when will it finish? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: The cost is not known because the amount is not known. The work has started. That is the work being done by local government with support from the Ministry for the Environment. 
Hon Ken Shirley 
: Is the Minister aware and concerned that the alleged copper contamination of residential properties in Auckland and elsewhere is based on concentrations that are regarded as safe and natural background levels elsewhere in the world particularly with volcanic soils; and what if anything is she doing to defuse the emotive nonsense without committing the taxpayer and the ratepayer to massive unnecessary costs? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: I am very well aware that copper used at certain levels can be nasty and it can persist in the environment particularly when it is used for instance as an organic fungicide. But as such I am not aware necessarily of the international controls on it. Our Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act works in detail with the international organisations on this and other issues. 
Sue Kedgley 
: Does the Government accept that companies like Dow Chemical should be held accountable for any toxic legacy that they create and when will the Government hold Dow Chemical to account for poisoning some of the people of Paritutu and the environment? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: I cannot comment on whether the Government would hold Dow Chemical to account and I do not believe that such financial barriers as Simon Terry proposes are the way to go to prevent chemical mistakes or disasters in the future. It is far better to do that by regulation advice and education than by putting up a financial barrier to any development. 
Sue Kedgley 
: Does the Government agree given its repeated support for the “polluter pays” principle in international organisations that if companies like Dow Chemical are not held to account and required to pay for the pollution they create they will simply carry on polluting our land and our people and expecting taxpayers to foot the bill? 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS 
: There is always a problem when people like Simon Terry and the Green Party ask for a “polluter pays” system based on a hazardous substance. Petrol is a potentially hazardous substance and I believe that what the member is therefore asking for is a rise in the cost of petrol. My mother put chemicals on the roses. I do not think that putting a price or a liability on my mother for what she did to the roses would have prevented what she continues doing. 
Sue Kedgley 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It was interesting to hear about the roses of the Minister’s mother but my question was whether she agreed that if companies like Dow Chemical—I was very specific—are not held to account they will continue to pollute our environment. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No the Minister did address that question. 
Maiden Statement 
KENNETH WANG (ACT) 
: 
 It is an honour to be standing here before New Zealand’s House of Representatives. The fact that I am shows not only how diverse our Parliament now is but my presence is a reminder that in this great country anything is possible. 
Being a member of Parliament is a privilege not for its status but for its responsibilities. While we who convene in this House are politically different we all share the trust of the people who put us here. We owe it to them to serve with utmost honesty and commitment. That is my pledge. I will do all I can to shoulder the responsibilities people have trusted upon me to serve the best interests of every New Zealander and to represent those 145000 people who gave their vote to ACT in 2002. 
I want Maori to get a fair go I want Pakeha farmers’ land rights respected I want Chinese working mums and dads to keep more of their hard-earned money I want our young Pacific people to get a world-class education I want our Indian businesswomen to keep a good margin and I want those brave men and women who fought under our flag to get quality health-care services. 
I am proud to be a New Zealander. I have great admiration for the people who carved a living out of this land who built the infrastructure who developed the farms and who created our vibrant cities. It took sheer grit and determination and this country’s forebears did it with their bare hands and without flinching. Their hard work saw this country last century rise as a world leader in living standards. For years New Zealand punched well above its weight—nurturing so many talented individuals national heroes and world champions. We have done so well in our past and we are capable of even better. 
This beautiful land has been a land of opportunities for my family and me. To my loving wife Li Ma and my very Kiwi children Amy and Collin thank you for your patience encouragement love and support. I want also to acknowledge my parents other family members my valued friends my staff at BrandWorks and ACT party volunteers. I owe this unbelievable opportunity and experience to you all. Thank you for putting your faith and trust in me. 
I want to take the opportunity to thank the Hon Richard Prebble and my caucus colleagues for standing firm on their principles. I have been elected under unique circumstances and I am pleased ACT has now been restored to a full complement of nine MPs. I hope that Donna Awatere Huata is also remembered for her contribution to the debate on education. As a father I am also committed to lifting the education standards for every New Zealand child. 
To the good people of New Zealand since arriving half a lifetime ago I have found you hard working and friendly by nature. Like all of you and your ancestors I came to these shores with hopes for a better life and dreams for a brighter future. After studying at the University of Auckland’s Elam School of Fine Arts I was privileged to be part of a great occasion in New Zealand’s modern history. It was indeed an honour to design the official poster for the 14th Commonwealth Games in Auckland some 14 years ago. My study here in New Zealand equipped me with skills I never knew I had and for that I am forever grateful. 
As I have said when at its best this country can produce world leaders. At its worst it can be the vehicle for mediocrity dependency and despondency. I want this country to deliver its full potential. We owe New Zealanders nothing less. After all we are all here because someone wanted us to have a better life. Just getting by is not good enough. I know first hand how hard it is for many New Zealanders who work long hours week in and week out to make ends meet to raise children and to support a family. We all live in hope that one day our hard work will pay off that we will get ahead and that there will be a better tomorrow. 
As a small-business owner I know how tough life can be for the small and medium-sized businesses that make up 90 percent of all New Zealand’s businesses. For many years I often sacrificed my own wages to pay my staff. For many years I worked late into the night doing the paperwork only to satisfy the bureaucrats. I know what it is like to battle with regulations red tape compliance costs bureaucracy and hefty Government taxes. The reality is that even in these so-called buoyant times businesses are struggling to keep their heads above water let alone thrive or compete globally. We have to do better and the ACT party that I believe in is the only party with a plan that will deliver a brighter future for all New Zealanders. 
Just a few years ago I was one of the many new Asian New Zealanders who was deeply hurt by one politician’s statement implying that we were responsible for every evil in this land. ACT was the first political party to publicly condemn such attacks. In reality Asian New Zealanders have made a huge contribution to this country since first arriving for the Otago gold rush. Without immigration this country would be a much poorer place both economically and culturally. I have never been on welfare I have never committed a crime and I have cost the health system very little. Instead I have built a business created jobs and paid many taxes. The same can be said for the overwhelming majority of Asian New Zealanders. 
I treasure my Chinese cultural heritage for the Chinese are well recognised for their hard work law-biding nature a strong emphasis on family values and a commitment to education. These values are also ACT’s values. ACT is not a party for the rich. ACT is a party for everyday Kiwis like me—people who know what it is like to be poor what it is like to labour night and day in factories and people who like me just want a fair go. I follow in the proud footsteps of my parents and my grandparents who devoted their entire lives to striving for a fairer and prosperous society. For them their battle for what was right cost them considerably. Like my father who never wavers from his principles and my grandfather who fought bravely in the battlefields for his beliefs I will not be afraid to stand up for what is right and believe me things are far from right in New Zealand in this new century. 
Life has taught me a valuable lesson. Fairness is not about taking from those who have and handing out to those who have not. Fairness is about equality in rights and opportunity. There can be no real social justice without economic growth and prosperity. Prosperity can be realised only by people working hard and there must be good incentives for people to work hard. 
Last week en route from my home in Mt Roskill to the Auckland airport I got talking to a taxi driver. He told me that he is on the road on average 12 hours a day. Yet despite working hard providing for his family was harder than it was a decade ago. When I said that the Government tells us that the economy is doing well he responded: “Well where is the money? It’s not in my pocket.” 
I believe that hard-working men and women deserve to pay less tax. The current tax rates are not necessary and are a disincentive for those desperate to get ahead. This is not as good as it gets. New Zealanders can do so much better. I am committed to making a difference to the life of every New Zealander and to standing up for those who work hard every day to contribute to our country yet increasingly they are rewarded with less. I am passionate and ambitious for this beautiful and enterprising country. I am ready to serve the people of New Zealand—the people and the country I love. 
I finish as I began. I owe my arrival into Parliament to so many people but more so I owe so much to the equality in rights and opportunities this great country has given to all of us. At the beginning of this new millennium our focus as parliamentarians must be on building a New Zealand that will again be the envy of the world. We owe it to our ancestors who fought so hard and we owe it to our descendants who deserve so much. Thank you. 
Appropriation (2003/04 Financial Review) Bill 
First Reading 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 I move  
That the Appropriation (2003/04 Financial Review) Bill be now read a first time. 
Bill read a first time. 
Urgency 
Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I move  
That urgency be accorded the Committee stage of the Civil Union Bill.  
The motion has been moved in order to enable extra sitting hours to be available to debate the bill so that it can be dealt with before the summer adjournment. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That urgency be accorded 
. 
Ayes 62 
New Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Maori Party 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
Civil Union Bill 
Instruction to Committee 
Hon DAVID BENSON-POPE (Associate Minister of Justice) 
: 
 I move  
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Civil Union Bill that it take the bill part by part. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the motion be agreed to. 
Ayes 62 
New Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Maori Party 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
In Committee 
Part 1 Preliminary provisions 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Before I give the call I would like to say that as with the second reading of this bill it would be appreciated by the Chair if there were no interjections on any of the speakers. 
Stephen Franks 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt before the debate begins. That was a rather unusual comment by the Chair and I would appreciate a little bit of elaboration. When the Chair said that no interjections on any of the speakers would be appreciated is he laying down a rule? It is a very unusual thing for interjections to be prevented entirely in a debate of this nature. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I thank the member for that. It is not unusual; it is in fact in the Standing Orders. I myself will be tolerant and I am sure that other Chairs will be. However what I am asking for and I know what the Committee would want to happen is that this be an orderly debate and that it bring pride on this Chamber. I cannot go any further than that. The odd exclamation is fine but I do not want the Committee to degenerate into disorder. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 What an extraordinary thing it is that this Parliament is in urgency to pass the Civil Union Bill. What on earth is urgent about it? 
I will say what is urgent. The Government knows that this bill is an electoral liability and it wants to clear the deck pre-Christmas because next year the public will get to vote. It is as simple and as cynical as that. 
What is even more cynical is the way in which the Government’s spin machine has pretended that this bill is not a gay marriage bill. Like parrots each of the Government speakers say that it is not about gay marriage. Let us read the original third clause in Part 1. It should have stated that the purpose of this bill was to introduce gay marriage but it actually stated that the purpose was to register relationships as civil unions under the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Act. 
Is a civil union a death? Some might think so. Is it a birth? Maybe not. It is certainly a marriage. This is the “Gay Marriage Bill” in drag. Let us not pretend anything less. I challenge the Minister in the chair Mr David Benson-Pope to read the Tui advertisement: “This isn’t a gay marriage bill? Yeah right!”. 
Clause 42 is where this bill does become significant. In clause 42 amendments are made to the Family Proceedings Act. I am one of those who says that that is one of the most important Acts this Parliament has because it is the family that provides for the upbringing of children. Despite the fact that Government members say this is not a gay marriage bill when it comes to the amendment to the Family Proceedings Act the husband is to be a party in a civil union the wife is to be a party in a civil union and marriage is to be synonymous with civil union. 
That is what clause 42 says so I ask Tim Barnett to say what the bill is. It is a gay marriage bill. I tell him to summon up the courage to say what it is and to stop the fraud on the people of New Zealand by saying that it is anything less. 
If it is not gay marriage why is it being registered under the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Act? Is there any Government member who can explain for me why this thing that is not to be a marriage is to be registered under the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Act? [ 
Interruption 
] Yes it is very popular with the United Future party but could the Minister in the chair explain to the Committee why he does not have the upfront nature to say that this bill is a gay marriage bill? 
When we look at the companion bill we see that there have been 1034 changes to every statute whether the statutes are about superannuation law family law child support law education law health law—members can name them. In every single one of those statutes civil union and marriage are to be exactly the same. I say to the Committee simply this: if it looks like a duck if it quacks like a duck if it smells like a duck then it is a damn duck. This is gay marriage and no matter what the Government’s spin doctors say there will not be a single area of law in which a civil union will be different from marriage. As we look through the detail of the bill we see that the two will be synonymous. In every element of process a civil union and marriage will be identical. 
I just challenge members opposite to be upfront with the electorate and explain why it is necessary for this Parliament under urgency in a mad rush before Christmas to change one of the most fundamental tenets of our society which is that marriage is between— 
Hon Rick Barker 
: Why should we believe this man? The High Court wouldn’t believe him. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Maybe Rick Barker can explain. Why has the Government said that civil union is not gay marriage when it is to be registered under the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Act? Mr Barker who was very keen to interject just a moment ago has walked out of the Chamber. I say to him that I do not think that that is good enough. I think the people of New Zealand deserve an honest answer as to why he will not label this legislation what it is—it is gay marriage. 
TIM BARNETT (Labour—Christchurch Central) 
: 
 I will respond to Nick Smith with the facts of the situation as opposed to his fantasies. First of all in terms of the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Act the Justice and Electoral Committee was quite prepared to make that change. We were advised that the agency was looking at its nomenclature and at whether it would list out all of its various registration processes at which stage things might change. Otherwise we would have been happy to do that now. 
The member is quite mistaken in terms of the Family Proceedings Act. In the bill before the Committee in the amendments to the Family Proceedings Act the words “husband” “wife” and “spouse”—the marriage language—are paralleled by the words “civil union partner”. That change was made by the select committee which was quite clear that marriage had a certain vocabulary attached to it and that civil unions should not mix and mess with that vocabulary. 
In terms of whether civil union is gay marriage it seems very odd to me that the great majority of people who will benefit from this institution are heterosexuals. I do not know how they can possibly be labelled as gay because civil unions are there for heterosexual de facto couples and for same-sex couples. Civil union is not a gay institution and it is not marriage; it is civil union. The only people who can move from civil union to marriage are a man and a woman who were originally in a civil union. 
So what we have is a new inclusive institution open to same-sex and to different-sex couples. We then have a number of various and different legal processes around that. For example a new category of celebrant is established—a civil union celebrant—so that marriage celebrants are not conducting both types of ceremony. More generally I think that Mr Smith has failed to point out that the strength of what the submitters to the select committee said about marriage is that marriage is not made by the law alone. The Marriage Act is very simple legislation. Marriage is made by its history its tradition and its culture and nothing in the Civil Union Bill affects those. We have a new institution created in the 21st century that will develop its own tradition and its own culture. 
 We do not know how many heterosexual couples will take it up. We do not know how many same-sex couples will take it up. That will determine the nature of the institution. A comparable law is the civil solidarity pact in France open in the same way to different-sex and same-sex couples. Fifty percent of the couples who use it are lesbian and gay and 50 percent are heterosexual. So civil union is a new institution a new name and separate to marriage. That is what it is all about. 
BRIAN CONNELL (National—Rakaia) 
: 
 My colleague Nick Smith is dead right: when one reads the purpose clause one cannot escape the conclusion that this bill is all about gay marriage. The previous speaker Mr Barnett had the opportunity to acknowledge that fact when he was on his feet. If the proponents of this bill would only acknowledge that fact I could at least have respect for their position. 
Mr Barnett knows that this bill is about gay marriage because he is its architect and he has said publicly that that was exactly what he intended. He intended this bill to be about gay marriage but now when he has the opportunity to bring the bill to Parliament he will not acknowledge that fact. The public record will demonstrate that he did say that—and that the Prime Minister said it as well. 
Of all the discussion and talk from the homosexual community about tolerance and of all the mail I have received the only hate correspondence I have had in the last few days has come from the homosexual community—simply because I would not buy its smokescreen argument that this bill is about human rights. Because it is not; it is about gay marriage—period. As I have said to Mr Barnett and others if they had the courage simply to acknowledge that fact I could at least respect them. At this stage of proceedings I really cannot. 
We in this Parliament have absolutely no mandate no mandate at all to pass this bill—let alone to pass it under urgency. If this bill were so good and if the Government really believed it was in the best interests of New Zealanders why did the Government not make the subject an election issue rather than take it off the agenda? The answer is simple. The Government knew and Mr Barnett knew that they would be thrown out of office. 
That is why this cynical Government has taken the issue off the agenda. This Government is totally without morality. It is bankrupt. In fact it is rotten to the core and the Prime Minister is the worst apple. That is why she is voting for the bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Order! 
BRIAN CONNELL 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. On what issue are you bringing me to order? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I thought you were going a little bit over the top but I invite you to continue. 
BRIAN CONNELL 
: Will this Prime Minister allow a binding referendum on this issue? 
Richard Worth 
: No way. 
BRIAN CONNELL 
: No and do members know why? Overnight she told the nation that she will not allow it because parliamentarians come to Parliament to make decisions. The hypocrisy of that argument is not lost on me. This is a Prime Minister who will not even get out of bed without a poll result telling her it is a good idea yet she has the audacity to say to the people of this country that there will not be a binding referendum on this issue. The real reason she will not support Mr Donnelly’s call for a binding referendum is that she knows it would be lost. 
Survey after survey of Kiwis whether on television or radio or by select committee submissions show that New Zealanders do not want a bar of this legislation. That is the only reason this Prime Minister will not put this legislation to the test and let the public of New Zealand decide. 
Was the Prime Minister vocal when Mr Choudhary sat on the fence in respect of the Prostitution Reform Bill? No she said nothing but now she is trumpeting that politicians come to Wellington in order to make decisions. Well she is a politician who does not do that; she uses a very cynical method called polling. Let us think about the term “civil union”. I say it is cold clinical and completely without warmth—just like this Prime Minister. 
Hon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First) 
: 
 I want to talk a little bit about my father. He only ever won one trophy—we kids used to think it was neat—and it was for winning the Auckland boxing championships. In some ways that expressed his view of masculinity. He served in North Africa and Italy from 1940 to 1945 and fought at El Alamein but he only ever told stories of the fisticuffs he used to get into during leave. It would be fair to say that he had a fairly macho view of masculinity. 
My mother was quite the opposite. She had a different upbringing. Her mother died when she was young and she was largely brought up in Catholic boarding schools. The nuns became her surrogate mothers. So she was very staunchly steeped in the Catholic faith and Catholic beliefs. She and dad became engaged before he went to war and mum waited patiently for his return. When he came back they were married and produced five kids—three boys and two girls. 
I was the third son so I got the hand-me-downs from two brothers but my sister after me got flash new clothes and that is why I consider I am still a scruffy dresser. One of my brothers was in fact just different from the other two boys. He was not as physically skilled although he joined in all the sports. He was artistic whereas the other two were not. I do not wish to make a stereotype but just to tell members about it as it actually was and as it is. 
In general we grew up as a typical family of the time in a typical State housing area and differences did not matter. My brother got married as did the other members of the family. His was a big Catholic wedding but the marriage was not successful. Following the annulment my brother developed a pattern of having male mates live with him. He did not actually come out of the closet as such but just gradually the door was pulled ajar and we all became progressively enlightened. 
The knowledge of my brother’s sexual preference hurt both my parents. I know it did. It challenged my father’s view of masculinity and indeed his own masculinity. It challenged my mother’s religious beliefs very deeply. But never once not even in the slightest did either of my parents convey any sense of rejection of my brother as a valued member of our family; my father conveyed silent acceptance and my mother fierce protectionism. My brother and his partners were fully accepted. 
I want to pay tribute to my parents because through their behaviour and through their example they taught me the true meaning of family values. I have heard a lot about family values but I believe they taught us the true meaning of them. They taught me that family values mean that acceptance of family members is non-negotiable and unconditional. 
I also want to take the opportunity to talk further about the family and to inform the Committee that on Friday this week I will not care whether this bill is still being debated because I am not going to be here. I will be with my wife walking my eldest daughter up the aisle. I am glad there is a formal ceremony in which my daughter and her partner can make a public commitment to each other—can make a pledge of an exclusive and long-lasting relationship to each other. I do not for one minute believe that the passage of this bill will undermine the marriage into which my daughter is entering. My brother and his partner will be there amongst the rest of our family and friends as should be the case. 
I accept the consciences of those who oppose this bill—and people know that I have put forward an amendment for a referendum—but I would respect those consciences far more easily if I had witnessed an effort by just one of those members to put up a bill in their time in Parliament to re-criminalise homosexual behaviour. But not one has. 
 The message therefore must be that gays can have legal sexual relationships but that there is no legal way they can make public commitments to long-term exclusive relationships. That I put to this Committee is a position that encourages promiscuity and that position is in no one’s best interest in terms of public health. So at this point in time I am still supportive of this bill but as I said later on during the Committee stage we will debate my belief that this issue needs to go to a public referendum so that we can settle it for all time. 
MURRAY SMITH (United Future) 
: 
 Some of the submitters who came to the Justice and Electoral Committee and supported the bill said that they wanted civil unions for different-sex people because of the culture they saw surrounding marriage—a culture that they thought was religious and patriarchal. However they failed to note that the Marriage Act does nothing in terms of culture or religious connotations and neither does the Civil Union Bill. The difference is though that civil unions as we are proposing them are devoid at the moment—at their start—of any cultural or religious connotations. 
Marriage by contrast has had hundreds of years in which a culture has developed around it. That culture comes not by way of the Marriage Act but by way of society’s understanding of what marriage provides. Similarly the Civil Union Bill provides no culture around it and it is as open as a void in order for a culture to develop around it. 
But when we look at even the things that were criticised by those submitters in terms of the culture surrounding marriage we find those things are changeable. The patriarchal nature of marriage really comes down to the relationship people have between them. Whether the husband dominates the relationship is really a matter for the husband and the wife to work out. It is not something that we as a society impose. There is no patriarchal nature to a marriage other than what the couple themselves accept or what one partner imposes on the other—whether patriarchal or matriarchal. Similarly in terms of religious connotations we now have several marriage ceremonies which can occur without any religious connotation whatsoever or with as much as the couple choose. Therefore any religious connotation to marriage again comes down to what the couple want in terms of their relationship. 
In essence therefore the difference between marriage and civil union does not come down to the nature of the bill that is passed but simply to what the couple create for themselves. All we have done in this bill is substitute the term “civil union” for the word “marriage” and that is at the heart of the argument that the two are no different. However marriage over hundreds of years has come up with two very important cultural norms that surround it. One is that it is intended to be a lifelong relationship—at least at its commencement—and secondly to be an exclusive relationship. 
We do not know whether the Civil Union if it passes will in fact develop those sorts of provisions but we encourage lifelong and exclusive relationships because we believe as a society that for the nurturing of the next generation it is in the best interests of society that there are stable environments in which to raise children. The trouble with the Civil Union Bill is that we do not know whether that culture will be there. We do not know whether in fact we will have lifelong exclusive relationships for the nurturing of children. 
The select committee considered that matter and we were going to put in the purpose clause a provision that said that part of the purpose of civil unions was to recognise and support stable genuine relationships between two people who wish to acknowledge freely and publicly their lifelong and exclusive commitment to each other. However the Greens strongly objected to that provision. They did not want civil unions to have any suggestion that they were to be lifelong relationships and they did not want civil unions to have any suggestion that they were to be exclusive relationships. Clearly what the Greens wanted was that civil unions could be seen to be transitional relationships—as far as the couples who entered into them were concerned if that is what they chose—and that they could be open relationships so that couples in civil unions were free to have sexual relationships with people outside those unions if they wanted to. 
The Greens did not want Parliament dictating or even suggesting in this bill that there should be a lifelong or exclusive relationship—and that is the problem that we have with civil unions: they have no culture surrounding them. We are opening up to all sorts of interpretations the environment in which we are going to raise the next generation and we have nothing there to cover for it. It was interesting that the select committee having decided that there should be this purpose clause moved away from it on the final day of consideration. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 I want to take a call on the purpose clause of this bill. I certainly hope Brian Connell will continue to front the opposition to this bill as he is giving plenty of fodder to those of us who agree with it. I offer my congratulations to Mr Donnelly and I hope his daughter’s wedding is a wonderful occasion for his entire family. 
I want to talk a little bit about the implications for the largest sector of society that stands to benefit from this bill and that of course is heterosexuals. I have talked to a lot of my friends about this bill and I want to bring to the attention of the Committee the fact that things are changing in New Zealand society. It has already happened to a large extent. It is the result of various changes in law and various changes in the belief systems held by young New Zealanders today. Far from those changes being detrimental or destructive if we accept them and if we learn what changes this Parliament needs to make to accommodate those changes in New Zealand society then we will see that in fact they do not need to be the destructive forces that many in this House would have us believe them to be. 
One of those changes is the fact that a number of young New Zealanders are waiting longer to get married and a number are deciding not to get married or are not making a decision not to get married but are ending up staying in de facto relationships. In fact there are over 320000 New Zealanders now living in de facto relationships. As one of those 320000 living in a de facto relationship I say that my relationship is committed stable and absolutely monogamous and I will not have members of this House say that just because they are married their relationship means more to them than my relationship does to me because that is simply not true. 
There are a number of forces in play in respect of this issue. One of them is that women now want to be financially independent before marriage and that has delayed the age of marriage quite considerably. Another reason is that many of our generation have seen the break-up of marriages. Research out of the United States from the national institute of marriage which is hardly a left-wing organisation has shown that far from young people believing that marriage is irrelevant they actually hold it in far higher regard than previous generations did. They no longer see it as just something that people have to do. They no longer believe that what a young woman should do when she finishes school is find a good husband from a good family and settle down. Now young people want to find their soulmates and settle into marriage. That has brought an interesting issue of expectation into the marriage debate that I do not believe we have really addressed. 
A number of my friends who are in de facto relationships have told me that they would like to have a civil union. Although members of this Committee might not understand or like the fact that people do not want to get married the fact is that just because we say they should get married does not mean that they will. Their reasons for not wanting to marry are varied but I have to say that the main reason is that they cannot separate out the institution of marriage from religion. I know that people say one can have a civil marriage but those young people would say it is still a marriage. One young girl who came and talked to me told me she had grown up in a very strict religious household. She said that it had been awful and she had had a horrible time growing up. She said: “Do you know what my mother said to me? She said she did not mind whether I had a civil marriage because I would still be married in the eyes of God.” She told me: “For me that sealed it: I will never get married.” But she said she would like to be able to have a civil union because she wants to be able to walk down the aisle and she wants to be able to have the solemnisation. She does want all of that but she wants it to be secular. 
I believe that had we been looking at amendments to the Marriage Act today to allow same-sex couples to marry we would not see church groups and religious organisations holding marriage out at arm’s length from them and saying: “Hey you can have a civil marriage. That has got nothing to do with us.” On the contrary they would be telling us that marriage is the cornerstone of the Christian church. I believe that it is a very important part of the Christian church. It is an institution that upholds Christian values and I think it is very important in that right. I understand why people who are religious do not want the Marriage Act to be changed—I understand that entirely. 
I also understand the number of heterosexual and same-sex couples who came to the select committee and said that the institution of marriage does not uphold their beliefs because it says that same-sex couples cannot enter into it. That is not something I believe in; that is something in fact that I find very very abhorrent to my own personal views. For that reason I would like a civil union which is a secular neutral new institution which shows that my values can be upheld as well as those of my same-sex friends who are in long-term relationships and want to have them formalised. 
So although we might stand here in this Chamber and say that young people should just get married the reality is that there is a large proportion of young people out there who have grown up as I did with the Bible in Schools programme and with being told that marriage is one of the cornerstones of the Christian church. I find it very ironic now that the same kinds of people are coming to me and saying: “No it isn’t. No no—not at all. It is a civil ceremony and if you go to a church well that’s your decision.” Well that is not the case. If one is going to say that that is fine but one should be consistent and not just say it when it suits. 
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT) 
: 
 It is very interesting that the same side—in fact almost the same mouths—that is arguing that it is ridiculous for those from the pro-marriage side who are worried about this legislation to feel that it says something about marriage is claiming at the same time that the reason for setting up this mimicry is to get away from the religious connotations of marriage because marriage is all in the heart and all in the mind. Our select committee found—I think to the surprise of all of us—that there is next to nothing about marriage specified in the Marriage Act. We can construct some part of the State’s attitude to marriage from other law such as the law that governs the delay before dissolution and we can argue that a stable long-term commitment of loving and caring is part of marriage or of civil union from some elements of history but we cannot find anything to that effect in law. 
We are having this debate when last year 47 percent of marriages were civil services that were not conducted in a registry office and 18 percent were conducted in a registry office. In other words only 35 percent of marriages last year took place in a church. I think we could assume that a few others might have been religious ceremonies that were not held in churches. I do not know how many. We were told by marriage celebrants who gave evidence to us in Christchurch that there were not many of those. But we have to take it that the community knows that marriage is a civil ceremony as far as the State requires and that it has known that for generations. So the idea that some urgent Government priority should be establishing a new status to avoid the offence that some apparently feel at the residual religious connotation is plainly ridiculous. 
This legislation is an attempt to create a direct mimic—a direct pantomime—of marriage in order to hitch-hike on its traditions and to hitch-hike on the residual respect that there is for marriage. It is an attempt by an elite to tell those who continue to dislike homosexuality that they ought to change. When Richard Worth comes up with proposals that will confer all the legal benefits of this status and remove every one of the legal disabilities we are told that that is an attempt to wreck the bill. Well it can be wrecking the bill only if the objective were something other than the removal of discrimination. It can be wrecking the bill only in that it is wrecking an attempt to use this bill to force a particular view of lifestyle a particular morality using the levers of the State on those who simply say they do not agree. 
I do not have a concern about homosexual relationships or homosexual couples. I would not have supported the Homosexual Law Reform Bill if I had been concerned about those. But when I hear Brian Donnelly giving a very sincere speech and saying that the valuable time of this Parliament should be spent on a bill that would allow—I cannot remember his phrase exactly—legal rights to have a relationship or legal recognition of a relationship I know that that comes from a world view that has forgotten where our legal tradition started. It was only a few generations ago that New Zealanders knew they could do anything that the law did not prohibit. It was without question that one could have any relationship one liked as long as the law did not prohibit it. One did not need the State to say a relationship was legal; the State told one only when a relationship was illegal. When the Homosexual Law Reform Bill went through Parliament the State ceased to tell people when their relationships were illegal. 
We had of course the historical institution of marriage and the State had decided that it would use that institution and reinforce it by providing a registration structure. I see great advantage in registration. 
RICHARD WORTH (National—Epsom) 
: 
 This debate on the Civil Union Bill is an important debate. There is absolutely no doubt about that. For my money the Government has embarked upon a programme of radical social change—of social engineering if you like. We have seen a number of elements of that in recent months. The first was the decision to legalise prostitution which had a whole lot of consequences. The second was the decision in effect to close down the Returned Services Association clubs in New Zealand because that will be the impact of the smoke-free legislation. Now we see proposals that for all intents and purposes will introduce same-sex marriage. 
I think it is worth reflecting that while we are doing these things other countries are doing the opposite. Just in the last month in the Australian Federal Senate we have seen a clear stance taken against same-sex marriage. Even more recently in the context of the US presidential elections we have seen a series of referenda across that country and in the states concerned there has been unequivocal rejection of same-sex marriage. [ 
Interruption 
] In a moment I will to meet the needs of members opposite who are interjecting explain why the Civil Union Bill is all about same-sex marriage. 
But I will start if I might by making the point that as a member of the Justice and Electoral Committee hearing submissions on this bill and on its companion piece of legislation which is in serious difficulty I along with other members of the committee some of whom are present in Parliament at the moment spent days listening to the wishes and concerns of both supporters and opponents of the bills. Not only did this issue receive more submissions than any other but it was been one of the most emotionally charged that I can remember. There were approximately 6000 submissions—maybe a few more than that—and 91 percent of those submitters were opposed to this legislation. That should give any thinking Parliament cause to reflect on the processes that the Government has initiated. Same-sex couples petitioned us to recognise that their loving and committed relationships should be recognised in law but—and I hope members opposite will acknowledge this—with equal sincerity most submitters expressed concern that the Civil Union Bill introduced same-sex marriage to New Zealand which they believed would undermine the unique status of marriage. 
If I were asked to summarise very briefly what my concerns are in connection with the determination of the Government to push this legislation through I would say that they are these. First of all there is strong opposition to this bill—6000 submissions and 91 percent of the submitters saying no. That is the first thing. The second thing is that this bill is being rushed through under urgency. That is quite significant because one would have thought that issues of this gravamen in the community— 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: Rubbish! 
RICHARD WORTH 
: The member opposite says “Rubbish!” but he probably does not understand that we are in urgency. The gravamen of the argument though is that the bill is being rushed through—[ 
Interruption 
] 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The Minister alongside you is abusing his privilege by using his microphone to interject on me which he is not permitted to do. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: That is quite right. I have indicated to the Minister that I would like him to quieten down. 
RICHARD WORTH 
: I have been making the point that the bill is being rushed through under urgency. It is a serious matter. It does not deserve to be rushed. It deserves careful and considered reflection. It has been reported back early. It was due to be reported back on 23 December. It is quite unusual for bills to be reported back within their first stipulated time limit. That has happened here. 
But there are other things going wrong. I was party to a sorry set of events in the select committee where it seemed that the officials were being badgered to hasten events so that there would be an early commencement of the bill. That is why there is a change that would see the bill come into force on a fixed date and possibly a departure from the Cabinet rules so that the normal time frames between the passage of regulations and the regulations coming into effect would be waived. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of Maori Affairs) 
: 
 Some of the narrowness that abounds in this House certainly surprises me especially in relation to this very serious bill. The member who has just spoken Richard Worth exuded what a lot of people are exuding about how people do take this issue seriously. What licence is given in this country to determine that emotion love and care exist only in a narrow framework that is written on a piece of paper when we know through clear facts and percentages that there is a lot of divorce and adultery? It is like the king with no clothes. It seems to be the symptom that is pervading in here. 
We heard some rubbish spoken earlier on about people’s choice. We talk about fairness and equity. This bill is about people’s choice. I know that quite certainly some of my relations and whanau are in gay relationships and they need to be respected. Others might not like it but as a real bloke who played a lot of rugby in the front row and did all those blokey things I do understand it. [ 
Interruption 
] I am glad that I am not as narrow-minded as that member who tries to make believe that these people do not care for each other. Relationships should not be as I have said constrained within the framework of the licence that some churches and organisations write out and sign. I dare not tamper with the basic fundamentals and ethics of churches in this country but I think that what is going down is hypocrisy at the maximum— 
Brian Connell 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. The member who is on his feet just used a word that is unparliamentary. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I thank the member for raising that. I was waiting to see to whom he was referring with that word. Perhaps it is better if he does not use it. I am not sure in what context he was using it. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: I am very clear. If the word does not fit— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: No no. The member is now getting close to indicating where he was heading. I will ask him to desist and leave it as unknown. 
Hon PAREKURA HOROMIA 
: One is put asunder when one hears the negative challenges around this issue. People are so definitive because of the law but they want to corrupt that progression with their specific narrow view on lore. Certainly in relation to unions we need to recognise that in contemporary times things are changing. Members heard Moana Mackey give a fine description of young people’s relationships in this country. Because they are doing it differently does not mean they do not love or care for each other. There is no difference from the relationship of kuia and mokopuna. We love them because they are our own. It is recognised in Maori lore. Certainly there are tensions and challenges even from our own people but I think we need to take a couple of steps back especially those people who are hardening off and expecting everybody to live in the same little box behind the same silk curtains and are misbelieving and exaggerating what really goes on in this world in contemporary times. 
There will be challenges as this bill goes through and they will be no different from other challenges. But let us remember that people have a choice in this country whether they are immigrants tangata whenua or Pakeha Kiwis and whether or not they are married. We can play with the percentages but for the opponents of this bill to try to bully everyone else into a certain position whether it may be perceived as conservative or as the status quo or as historically inherited through church union or whatever else begs a lot to be asked and answered. 
I certainly do not have total support from my own whanau in relation to the stance that I have taken. But one thing that I am very clear on is that people have choices in this country and this Government has been about that. It has recognised that and has given people choices and the Civil Union Bill is about that. It is about a group of people and about practices that people are involved in. That is their business. What is so untoward about recognising how people choose to live? 
BILL GUDGEON (NZ First) 
: 
Tenatatou e whakarongoana ki ngakorero e whakawhitianai roto itenei o otatou Whare. Greetings to all who may be listening to the civil union debate that is taking place today. Is it not ironic that the opinion of the large majority of the general public has been ignored? Members of Parliament who support the Civil Union Bill are deaf to the cries of the majority of constituents. Is this democracy? New Zealand First has strongly recommended a public referendum but this so far has fallen on deaf ears as the Labour-led Government is adamant that the bill must go through. Others who have conscience votes in this House should note that if the bill passes it will undermine a stability that has been the foundation of this country. Moral fibre and virtue seem to be irrelevant and this bill will certainly erode disrupt and create a decay in the family structure as we see it today which has always been the hallmark of this nation. 
Those who are for the bill may say and think: “Where has Bill Gudgeon been lately? He should get off the grass and not bring his moralistic views and virtues here because we are entitled to whatever we want hence the Human Rights Act.” What about the rights of the majority and those people who are against this bill? I have always believed in accountability for whatever we do. I say that that time will come. I would like the public to know that this reminds me of the story of the frog that happily boils to death. This Government has slowly increased the temperature incrementally at regular intervals and things that were once not normal to our society are now gaining a foothold. 
 To the Maori members who support this bill for whatever reason I go back to the ancient proverb: “E kore au e ngaro te kakanoiruia mai iRangiatea.” The literal translation of this proverb is: “The seed that was planted in Rangiatea will never be lost.” The seeds are us gathered here today. Rangiatea is the literal place of heaven where we originated. And the proverb goes on to say that we will never be lost. Is there any significance in the relationship between this bill and that proverb? I would say that the seed is the generations yet to come. So again we should think about our position as members of Parliament. Those who vote in favour of this bill will be responsible for a huge amount of negativity just like that caused by the Prostitution Reform Bill. 
This bill is iniquitous and has no future in New Zealand. I am vehemently against it. Regardless of the percentages and the statistics that people have thrown around today and in the past and will throw around in the future this bill has no place in New Zealand. God did not create marriage for man and man or for woman and woman. Marriage was between man and woman and through that union came the children. For those who might think I am a Bible-pusher for those who might think I am following God’s path— 
GEORGINA BEYER (Labour—Wairarapa) 
: 
 The member who just resumed his seat will be pleased to know that the Civil Union Bill does not touch the sanctity of marriage that the member talks about. He will be pleased with that. I find it quite amazing that aspects of the attitudes of those opposing the bill smack of hypocrisy. I have to say that. I am not pointing it out to anyone in particular; I am speaking of attitudes. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I am on to that. The member will withdraw and apologise. 
GEORGINA BEYER 
: I withdraw and apologise Mr Chairperson. But everybody understands what I mean. This is a human rights - based piece of legislation and it sickens me to think that those who preach the piety I have heard in this place today absolutely throw away the human rights that we are talking about in favour of the very exclusive marriage. We are not seeking marriage with this bill; we are seeking a civil union. This is part of the cornerstone of the foundation of our society—to build strong family relationships to help maintain the society we live in. In a country in the modern world we should be able to enjoy equal opportunity to contribute to that no matter what our gender or our status may be. We actually preserve and uphold the institution of marriage so that it is not touched. 
The arguments that opponents to this bill are putting up are based on pious moral grounds with a very strong religious overtone. We in New Zealand live in a secular society and while much of our tradition may be based on the Christian ethic in the modern world there are a number of other beliefs. Should we all live under the tyranny of the majority of so-called “Christian” believers alone? No we have a much more diverse basis of belief. One of them happens to be that some people choose not to get married but would like to choose some other way of having their relationships solemnised and recognised by the State and society and to move on with their lives and be part of that cornerstone that helps build strength into this country of ours. 
This bill is about building nationhood. It takes nothing away from anybody. Not one person will have anything removed from him or her by the passing of this bill and I wish members would remember that. As for referenda that is a cop-out by politicians who wish only to rule by referendum on issues like this. I do not think so. I do not think this country can be ruled by referendum in that way. And by the way I do not think this issue is serious enough to warrant a referendum when I know darn well that the politicians who have been elected to Parliament have been imbued upon their election with some trust in their ability to make decisions on these very sorts of matters particularly matters that are about human rights and not about taking anything away from anybody else. 
I do not know why members keep going on about their particular points of view when it comes to people who would benefit by this bill being banished because of these members’ extraordinarily narrow beliefs. I cannot believe they can play both sides of the argument saying on the one hand: “No you cannot have access to marriage or a civil union.” but on the other: “By the way we do believe in you and value you as members of this society.” What does that smack of? It really does smack of something I apologised for previously. 
With that I end my contribution—one of many I hope—at the Committee stage of this bill in which we will flesh out even further some of the rather suspect contributions of members opposed to the bill that betray the real homophobia that pervades this place and that the message from some of the extremists out there are now in here. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: Before I call the next member I remind the Chamber that once a member has withdrawn and apologised on an issue there is no point referring back to it because it does not exist. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I know that members opposite have gone on the offensive and have accused all sorts of people who do not support this bill for their use of language. I would like you to consider whether the member who has just spoken accusing those of us who do not support this bill of being “homophobes” is in order. I take offence at it. I do not think it is appropriate language in this debate. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I ask members as I did earlier to have respect one for another in this Chamber. I thank the member for raising that point. I do not need any help on it and I will not do anything about it but I thank him for raising it. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Mr Chairperson you need to make a simple ruling. I can think of all sorts of offensive words that I could use in this Chamber about members opposite. I do not intend to use them. I will not take myself down to their level. But you need to make a clear ruling as to whether it will be acceptable—we will be debating this bill for the next couple of days I understand—for members like Georgina Beyer to accuse members who do not support this bill of being homophobes. I take offence. I think the member should withdraw and apologise. Alternatively Mr Chairperson you should rule that it is quite appropriate—make a ruling. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I thank the member for furthering that point of order. I do not believe that the word was used in that context at all. I will not ask the member to withdraw and apologise for that particular comment. Members need not take that as licence to— 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Well you have— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: That is what I am ruling. I have been trying to listen to the debate very carefully. I do not think the word was used in that context. I do not think the member was accusing members of being homophobic. I have made a ruling as to what I propose to do with the member. The Chamber has heard it. I have thanked the member who raised the matter for doing so. 
GEORGINA BEYER (Labour—Wairarapa) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. Notwithstanding the previous ruling that you have just handed down could the term “dressed up in drag”—which I might find offensive as well—fit into the ruling that you just gave? 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I am quite aware of that and that is why I asked members to have regard for other members in this Chamber. I find that if the word “homophobic” is offensive any reference to the word “drag” and saying that this bill is “marriage in drag” is just as offensive. Members could go on today and tomorrow being pulled up for all sorts of words. Members should have regard for that please. 
MURRAY SMITH (United Future) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. I suggest that there is a big difference between accusing a person of being homophobic or whatever and suggesting that this bill is something other than what it purports to be. One addresses a person in the Chamber; a member of Parliament. That is clearly wrong. One that addresses this bill as being something else altogether has nothing to do with the people who are involved in it. It is a valid criticism of the bill. 
SIMON POWER (Senior Whip—National) 
: 
 My understanding of the Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings is that these matters become matters that you need to rule on if an individual member takes offence. At that point if the member takes offence the member has a method at his or her disposal to raise the issue with you and at that point if the member has taken offence you would probably require the offending party either to apologise or to withdraw and apologise. I think that if we work on the basis that if a member takes offence the member can raise it at that point we will get ourselves out of what has turned into a small quagmire. 
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT) 
: 
 I suggest that in this particular debate the word “homophobe” is a useful term and it would be unfortunate for us to end up interrupting the debate all the way through when it is a word that people are dying to use. I think that it says more about the poverty of intellect and argument of those who throw it as an allegation than it says about the recipient. But putting that aside I think that when a word is ruled out that fits what they want to say so well it ends up making the debate less rich and with people simply searching for euphemisms. I would suggest that those of us who get accused of being homophobic know whether we are and that we just thicken our skins and allow the debate to continue. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: I thank members for raising that. I make no judgment on whether those two words that the member reminded the Committee of are equally offensive or not offensive at all. But it is all in the mind and I know exactly what was meant by both words. I do not claim to have any more knowledge than anyone else here but in respect of the point that Dr Nick Smith raised in particular to Ms Beyer that should have been raised at the time she said it. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I did. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich) 
: No she had sat down. She had finished. I had called the next speaker and so on. Let us move on and give Dr Wayne Mapp a chance. 
Dr WAYNE MAPP (National—North Shore) 
: 
 The question I have to ask is: why do so many members of this Parliament and in particular Government members fear the voice of the people? Why are they scared of a referendum? What makes their conscience any better than that of a member of the public? The reality is that members of Parliament are representatives of the public. We are no better and no worse. For that reason and that reason alone I believe this issue along with all other conscience issues ought to be placed before the public. We should not fear the public. After a full and extensive debate they will make their judgment and frankly in many cases that might be a surprise to members. I think that members of the New Zealand public are fair and balanced and in the privacy of the ballot box will cast their votes for what is fair. That is why I will be supporting the amendment put forward by Brian Donnelly and the amendments put forward by Richard Worth. 
I want to make it very clear. I polled the electorate in North Shore and in a scientific poll 56 percent of the public were opposed 34 percent were for and the balance were unclear. 
Tim Barnett 
: What’s the question? 
Dr WAYNE MAPP 
: I know that Mr Barnett says: “Ah but you asked the wrong question.” but I checked that and that is not the case. More important I checked the legislation in detail and the reality is this. This legislation is in fact marriage by any other name. The form and substance of marriage are entirely reflected in the bill. There is a solemnisation procedure people make undertakings and the rules of consanguinity do apply. Those are precisely the things that we find in marriage. 
When people suggest that this Civil Union Bill is not effectively a marriage they are wrong because when one reads the bill that is precisely what the proposition is. That is why Mr Worth has put up in essence an alternative that does look more like a civil union. A number of same-sex couples have said to me that they are concerned about next of kin issues. They are concerned about property issues. I want to make it clear that I did vote in the Property (Relationships) Bill to extend those property issues to same-sex couples because those are the real issues that gay people are mostly concerned with. Well there is a mechanism to fix those issues and Mr Richard Worth’s amendment will do precisely that. I believe that if the New Zealand public were given a clear and reasonable choice they would extend the kinds of protections that Mr Worth is thinking of through a referendum. 
I ask why the Government is so afraid of a referendum. Surely as our democracy evolves it is fundamental that we should be more willing to extend greater direct democracy to the people. There is an enormous passion for it. If one asks the public that is what they want and why do they want it? Because at their heart they know that their consciences have as much validity as those of anyone in this Parliament. Surely when we are talking about civil rights we are talking about equality. Every person in this country who is an adult and who has thought about those things is able to make an informed decision. This Parliament has a historic opportunity to change the way that we do things in our democracy and to extend civil rights to the people by an extension of our direct democracy. 
I want to know from the next Government speaker whether it will take that opportunity because there is a real opportunity here which should be taken. In other countries such as the United States many European countries and Australia there is a growing trend for direct democracy. There is a growing voice in New Zealand for direct democracy. Conscience issues are the perfect vehicle for those. Civil union: it is either yes or no. The drinking age: it is either 18 or 20. Brothels: one either wants them in one’s community or one does not. The public are able to make common-sense reasonable decisions on those issues. Those referendums would not be taking place in a vacuum; there would be a large and informed debate from both sides of the issue. They should be held at the time of general elections to get the maximum participation but we should ultimately trust the voice of the people. 
LARRY BALDOCK (United Future) 
: 
 I rise to make a contribution to this debate which is very controversial. The House would not be in urgency at this particular time if it were not controversial and it is the intention of the Government to try to rush this bill through before Christmas in the hope of getting it out of the way before we enter next year’s election cycle. It is also a very passionate debate. I believe that all members stand to speak with a great deal of concern either for or against this legislation and the debate will not be conducted without passion. Members hope to conduct themselves in the Chamber with some respect but we will not be able to debate this matter devoid of passion because it is a very very serious issue. 
 I oppose this legislation because I believe it does do serious damage to the institution of marriage in New Zealand and in particular to the importance of the way our families are constituted in this country. There are some foolish things said and even more foolish things done though in the midst of this debate. I think all of us would regret some of the things we have heard said or seen written or actions that have been taken that do not help in being able to address this subject and this bill with the seriousness that it deserves. 
But this is not all one-sided. Before we have sanctimonious claims from one side of the debate that all the errors are on the other side I would like to refer the Committee to the issue of  
Express 
 magazine that was published immediately after the first reading of this legislation. The front page of the magazine had pictures of all the MPs who voted against this bill on its first reading and the title of the page was: “The Ugly Face of Homophobia”. I believe that is a terrible injustice to this Parliament and an injustice to those MPs who have voted according to their conscience against this legislation. I remind those who are supporters of the legislation to bear that in mind and to consider the way in which we may conduct ourselves in this debate before they begin throwing stones across the other side of the Chamber. 
When we speak of upholding marriage we are speaking about not seeing the need for the State to justify or to give formal recognition to same-sex relationships. That really is the issue. Whenever we raise this we are accused of being very narrow. Just yesterday I was in Australia attending the National Prayer Breakfast in the House of Parliament in Canberra. Many of the members of that Parliament and indeed the public of Australia are very proud of the fact that they passed an amendment to their Marriage Act this year upholding the fact that marriage will always be for a relationship between a man and a woman. Those who oppose our stance on this legislation and would call us narrow would have to address that concern against all of our colleagues across the Tasman in Australia and I do not think they would appreciate that too much. 
We have also seen this year in the US elections and in particular in 11 states in the US referenda held on whether same-sex relationships should be recognised either in civil unions or in gay marriage. The people of those states overwhelmingly rejected those proposals which is one of the reasons why I believe the Government is afraid to allow this issue to go to a referendum here in New Zealand. We believe that if more time were allowed for the debate and more New Zealanders were brought up to speed on what this legislation really is about there would be an overwhelming rejection of it by referendum in this country. 
Too many New Zealanders fall into the trap of being tolerant without becoming fully aware of what the issues are really about. When asked if they condone same-sex relationships most New Zealanders will say they do not object they want to leave people alone and they do not want to be judgmental. But when we dig deeper into what this legislation may in fact do over time we find there are some serious issues that will be raised. There is no provision in this legislation to prevent discrimination from being placed upon those who have a different opinion from those who support civil relationships or same-sex relationships. What really concerns me is not what this may do to marriage in my generation or in my children’s generation but what it will do to my grandchildren and generations beyond that as those who are intent on making same-sex relationships equivalent to marriage continue in their campaign over time. 
I do not believe this legislation will affect my marriage at all. I am entirely confident that after 27 years my wife and I have worked out a fairly stable relationship. I do not believe it will affect my children’s relationships. My two daughters who are 26 and 25 years of age have married and I believe they will be able to sustain any attack from this legislation. 
TIM BARNETT (Labour—Christchurch Central) 
: 
 I mainly want to talk about public opinion because that has been an issue raised by a number of speakers but I would just like to start with a couple of challenges to members to respond to. One is in response to something Dr Nick Smith said earlier. I would like to know from Nick Smith in what sense the virtue and the purity of his marriage is threatened by this proposal for civil unions. He said it is and I would like to know how. In terms of Mr Baldock who talked about unintended consequences I want to hear from one of the opponents to this bill what were the unintended consequences of the decriminalisation of gay sex 18 years ago and what were the unintended consequences of the introduction of human rights protections 10 years ago. 
Those are fundamental questions but let us move on to the issue of public opinion. First of all in terms of opinion polls rather than just quoting who we listen to let us look at scientific opinion polls. Four polls have been held in New Zealand over the last 14 months on this issue. In October 2003 ACNielsen (NZ) Ltd found 64 percent support and 30 percent opposition; in April 2004 the One News Colmar Brunton poll found 46 percent support and 34 percent opposition; the 3 News poll in July 2004 found 59 percent support and 39 percent opposition; and in the  
New Zealand Herald  
poll in September 2004 the figure was 56 percent for and 39 percent against. So there seems to me to be quite a comprehensive public endorsement of the proposal of civil union. 
If we turn to the issue of the mandate three political parties in this Chamber committed in their manifestos at the last election to either introduce or support this legislation namely the Greens the Progressive Party and the Labour Party. That certainly is a mandate for this House to deal with the issue. 
Let us turn to the issue of media comment and what better source than the  
Ashburton Guardian 
. Thank goodness the narrow views of Mr Connell do not represent those of the people of Ashburton. In its editorial of 30 November 2004 entitled “Gays lesbians need their rights” the  
Ashburton Guardian 
 spoke of gay and lesbian people in New Zealand being allowed the same rights in its view as other couples. The editorial asked: “Do we not pride ourselves on being liberal in this country?”. While some people in New Zealand may not agree that people of the same sex should even be together and maybe their local MP is one of those the fact is it happens has happened for a long time and will never stop. 
Let us turn to its editorial opinion after the Destiny New Zealand march entitled “Bigotry might be their destiny but it’s not ours”. “The hysteria and homophobia over the Civil Union Bill show just how immature we are as a country. … Homosexuality isn’t a lifestyle choice. It’s a condition. If two men or two women live together in love we should respect their decision and commitment and move on. People shouldn’t be scorned because of their sexuality just as they shouldn’t be scorned because of their race or religion or gender.” It goes on to state that this bill has forced people to nail their colours to the mast. I can tell Mr Connell that it states: “You can support homosexuals without being judged one yourself.” It ends: “God knows New Zealand has problems. But homosexuality isn’t one of them.” 
Then we might like to turn to Dr Wayne Mapp’s scientific poll. I notice that he did not give us the wording of that poll. He gave me the wording during a select committee meeting after he challenged me on it. The scientific poll contained four factual inaccuracies. Any polling that does not have fair and balanced questions is not effective. Dr Mapp had the opportunity when he spoke to give us the wording of the poll that he used in his electorate and he failed to do that. 
I think one of the truest things said in this whole debate was a comment by Stephen Franks again when the Justice and Electoral Committee was meeting when he said: “Well in reference to the Civil Union Bill the issues actually are pretty simple. You are either for it or you are against it.” The issue is one of fundamental human rights and fundamental human dignity. Of course Stephen Franks rather spoiled that by first of all supporting it then going against it. I do not quite know what it says about him. I really just want to point out that at the end of the day public opinion is behind this legislation. It is good solid mainstream Kiwi liberal legislation. 
NANDOR TANCZOS (Green) 
: 
 I have already spoken in this Chamber about my view of this word “homophobia” which has been used. I said before that I think the word is actually misguided because I do not think it is about fear of homos it is about fear of a pluralist society. It is about fear of diversity in a society in which we accept other people for who they are rather than who we think they should be. 
It is quite strange to see a number of members in this Committee whose parties talk about one law for all then vote against this bill. When they talk about one law for all are they talking about a law that is impartial and treats all people equally? Or are they talking about a law that is monolithic and says there is only one way of living one’s life and if one does not live his or her life according to their way then the law is against one? In particular I look at some of the members of ACT and most of the members of the National Party who I think are weaselling out of what they know is the right thing to do—to support this bill—by using convoluted arguments that I think they know in their hearts are actually quite wrong. 
When we talk about one law for all it seems that some members of the Committee have the view of equal rights espoused by Napoleon. I do not mean the Corsican emperor I mean the one in  
Animal Farm 
 who said: “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” I think it is a shame that some members of this Committee want to continue a status quo that would maintain that and it is a good thing that it appears very likely they are going to fail in that attempt. 
I would like to address the question of whether there should be a referendum. I have no doubt in my own mind that a referendum would pass. Polls indicate that while gay marriage is not supported by the majority of New Zealanders most of us do appear to support civil unions or something like that. I think in that sense the numbers in this Committee probably reflect to quite a large degree public opinion. We are probably a little bit more conservative in this Chamber than the New Zealand public but I think that we are roughly representative of the position of New Zealanders. I think that it would pass because New Zealanders pride themselves on tolerance on a sense of fairness and on respect for human rights. 
So as I say I do think that a referendum would be in favour of this bill but I do not agree that this question should be put to a referendum. That is because firstly it is simply a stalling tactic and it is time that we passed this bill. It has been a long time in the Justice and Electoral Committee and it has been a long time in front of this Parliament. Those who say that this is a rushed process are simply misleading the public when they make those statements. Secondly I do not believe that the rights of minorities should be subject to a majority veto. It is interesting that members such as Mr Wayne Mapp who talked on this issue say that they want conscience questions—primarily moral questions—decided by a referendum. I have never heard the member argue for a referendum on genetic engineering or on free-trade agreements for that matter. No no it is only on moral issues. He thinks it is only those questions that New Zealanders should have the right to decide on directly for themselves. 
I do not believe and the Green Party does not believe that the rights of minorities should be subject to majority veto. This is not the kind of question that should be put to a referendum. This is a basic question of: do we support human rights or do we not? Do we support equality for all New Zealanders or do we not? It is as simple as that. It is an abdication of our responsibility if members say they support the bill but they will vote against it because there is no referendum. That is an absolute abdication of those members’ responsibilities as legislators. I make particular reference to Dr Don Brash who said that he supports the bill. He said that he would support the issue in a referendum but he will vote against the bill. I find his reasoning there a little hard to understand. We were elected to this Parliament to legislate and I think it shows a lack of comprehension of what we were elected to do and what the role of a parliamentarian actually is. 
Before I finish I would like to challenge Brian Donnelly and Ron Mark. The Hon Brian Donnelly put up the Supplementary Order Paper on a referendum. I accept that that is in line with his party’s policies and I accept that he has a genuine reason for doing so because that is the position that that party takes. But my challenge is if it fails what will those members then do? Will they oppose the bill? They voted for it according to their conscience; will they vote against their conscience in the future? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 The fundamental question that Parliament should be asking itself this afternoon is: will we make society stronger by making de facto relationships same-sex relationships and married people’s relationships exactly the same? That is the real key. All this wash we hear about human rights etc. comes back to what will make society stronger. 
The basic view I come from is that the family unit of mum dad and the kids is overwhelmingly shown in all the social research to provide the best environment in which to raise children. If we look at all the risk factors we so often debate in this Parliament whether in terms of kids’ educational achievement health statistics or youth crime we see that in all of those the evidence is overwhelming that families do best when there is a mum and a dad—not a mum and a mum not a dad and a dad but a mum and a dad. 
Why does that matter? Well it matters because the very future of our society is our children. I hear much hand-wringing from Labour members—they are concerned about child abuse in New Zealand they are concerned about educational outcomes and they are concerned about child poverty—yet the very institution of marriage and family that can best deliver those things for our society is being undermined by this bill. 
Mr Tim Barnett decided to get very personal and to refer to my own marriage. I would have preferred that we did not. I am proud of my marriage. It is not perfect but I am proud of it and I am proud of the institution of marriage. But the question is: well if we let everybody have it does that undermine it? Let me ask members: if we let everybody get school certificate does that undermine it for those who currently pass? Of course it does. [ 
Interruption 
] Well I know for Judith Tizard that it is part of Labour’s education programme to drive down standards of education and that it wants to do the same with our relationships. But if we go to the Olympic Games and say: “Everybody is going to get a gold medal.” does that undermine the value of the medal for those who get it? Of course it does. 
Then we come to the argument from Moana Mackey. She says the reason we need to get rid of marriage and provide for civil unions is that society is a secular society— 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: The member’s speech is full of lies. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: There is nothing in the Marriage Act and I have it right here before me— 
Dail Jones 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I am sick and tired of Labour members making unparliamentary statements. If Ms Tizard wants to say something is a lie she should take a call. I distinctly heard what she said regarding Dr Nick Smith’s speech and these Labour members should be brought to order. That member should be made to withdraw and apologise for saying that Dr Nick Smith’s speech was a lie. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I thank the member. The member is absolutely correct and I will ask the member to withdraw and apologise. 
I furthermore remind members that Chairperson Clem Simich indicated to them that interjections should be kept to a minimum. I say because this is a conscience issue that members should try to respect other members. The member will withdraw and apologise please. 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: I withdraw and apologise. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Labour member Moana Mackey said the reason we had to create this new institution of civil union was that society is secular. I openly respect that. We are a secular society; it should not be for the State to impose religion. But I have the Marriage Act here. Nowhere in it does it have any religious overtone. In fact only a third of weddings today are actually held within a church. So to somehow say that we need to introduce this whole new concept of a civil union on the basis that marriage is solely Christian is wrong—it is just incorrect. 
Then we come to the argument that this is not really gay marriage. Well let me read what the bill said when it was introduced. Clause 42(2) stated that the word marriage was taken to include civil union. I will read it again. All the way through an amendment to the Family Proceedings Act the word marriage was taken to include civil union. Well if that is not gay marriage I do not know what it is. That is as clear as day. 
I note in a gay magazine that Tim Barnett and the Prime Minister have said how proud they are that the Labour Party has delivered gay marriage. They did not say “civil union” in the magazine; they said “gay marriage”. They know that the majority of New Zealanders are opposed to gay marriage so they have had their spin doctors getting every Labour member who takes the call to try to pretend that this is not the gay marriage bill. 
DARREN HUGHES (Labour—Otaki) 
: 
 I rise to support Part 1 of the Civil Union Bill. I say “Civil Union Bill” because that is what we are discussing. Parliament is debating whether to create a new mechanism for gay and straight couples in New Zealand to have their relationships legally recognised by the law—not approved in some kind of opinion poll or text message competition not accepted by everyone who lives in their street thinking they are an appropriate couple to be together and not determined by each individual member of Parliament. We are deciding whether two people who are in love with each other should be able to bowl up and have their relationship recognised by law. It is quite a simple matter. 
Instead a lot of members of Parliament are saying that somehow there has to be some great competition: that somehow in Parliament today we are trying to decide whether in the future every New Zealander should live in a gay civil union relationship or in a heterosexual marriage. But this is not a competition. This is about looking at New Zealand in the 21st century about seeing the range of relationships that exist throughout our communities our families our businesses and everywhere in our country today and about deciding whether the law should recognise the diversity of those relationships. 
We are not trying to say that one relationship is better than the other. We are not trying to say that marriage is a terrible thing that has failed and therefore should be abolished and replaced with a civil union. We are simply providing an option for New Zealanders who either do not want to marry in the case of heterosexual de facto couples or whom we are continuing to forbid to be married in the case of same-sex couples. But here we are in Parliament with lots of members as the new kind of moral crusaders and pioneers of righteousness puffing up their chests and trying to say that they are protecting marriage and all that is moralistic and right in our society while also saying that other members are somehow trying to tear apart the fabric of New Zealand. We are not in a competition in this debate. 
What members have been trying to do with the marriage side of things and the Marriage Act is to say that this is some sort of pale imitation of marriage. I challenge members on that. They say that the wording in the Civil Union Bill is similar to the wording in the Marriage Act. I see that Dr Smith has a copy of the Marriage Act. I suspect and I do not know whether I am right about this that that would be one of the first times Dr Nick Smith has read the Marriage Act. I suspect that when he became engaged to his wife and they had a wonderful romantic evening he did not read the Marriage Act. I bet that most members of Parliament had not read the Marriage Act before they were married to their partners—it is administrative law. 
So let us not get hung up on the words we are using in Parliament to give effect to people’s day-to-day lives because ordinary people out there who are at work at the moment be they gay or straight will not look at legislation for its wording to see how they want to live their lives together. I think that we are taking ourselves a little too seriously with regard to the way in which we are conducting the debate. In a very competitive manner we are trying to say that one relationship is better than the other and that somehow thousands of couples who want to get together will read administrative law before deciding what relationship will suit them better. 
On the issue of the referendum referred to by Mr Tanczos I tell members that I agree with the sentiments he raised. The referendum was kind of thrown up at the last minute by some members as a way to try to divert attention from the issue with the exception of course of New Zealand First members who have a longstanding policy on referenda. But there comes a time in this Parliament where we sometimes have to stand up and do what we think is the right thing even though we are not sure what the majority of people out there might think about it. For example I represent 55000 people. I will not tell members what is in the souls of 55000 people on this bill. I will not pretend to do that. I will make a value judgment myself and of course I will be held accountable for it. 
But I put this point to members: imagine if it were said that there ought to be a referendum about giving women the right to vote when the entire electorate was made up of male voters or when the entire Parliament was made up of men who said: “No this is far too important. Let’s have a referendum on it.” I suspect that that referendum would have been lost. I do not think that we would have ever freed the slaves by a referendum. I do not think that we would have ever done a whole lot of things around referenda so Parliament has to make the call on those kinds of decisions and show the leadership that is necessary for minority groups. I do not want to spend my life going around picking on minority groups and making derogatory comments about them. I am not interested in that; I am interested in our getting on with these things. [ 
Interruption 
] 
I hear Mr Franks interjecting. I knew that Mr Franks would end up opposing this bill because people like him always find some kind of superfluous at-the-margin kind of reason to oppose the extension of rights and protections to people. They always have some sort of last-minute objection. Even though on a good day with a tail wind they would support it they say: “Oh no here comes the reason why I cannot have it.” 
I will not do that because I will make sure that we do provide rights for people that we affirm people in what they are doing and that we do not run around the place in some sort of competitive mode. In the end I support Part 1. I do not think anyone’s marriage is undermined because Bob and Bob living four streets away will have the law recognise their relationship. That is totally superfluous when one thinks about everyone who lives in one’s community. 
CRAIG McNAIR (NZ First) 
: 
 I am glad to speak in this debate although the bill is very disturbing in many ways. The way in which the process has taken place and the rush and haste in which this legislation is being rammed through are a diabolical disgrace. They are an outrage to this Parliament and this nation—and those members know it. They constantly say that it has been a good process and so on but I ask why it has been one of the quickest—or the quickest—process in our parliamentary history? It is an absolute outrage and I believe that a lot of people in this country say that as well. 
If this Government is so sure that the people of New Zealand want this legislation it should put it to a referendum. If Government members are so sure they are representing the people of this nation they should put the legislation to a referendum and let the people have their say. This Government should stop being a minority Government and start to be a Government of the people. But the Government has no desire to do that because I think it knows that it would lose a referendum. [ 
Interruption 
] 
If Moana Mackey is so sure why does she not support an amendment proposing a referendum. If she is so sure that the people of New Zealand would support this liberal legislation she would let the people of Gisborne whom she wants to represent in the future have their say through a referendum. 
One can look at the liberal State of Oregon in the United States. I pinpoint Oregon because it is supposed to be like New Zealand in many ways. It is not like the conservative southern states of the US; it is a more liberal state on the west coast. I use Oregon as an example because prior to a referendum in the United States on widening the definition of marriage and allowing same-sex couples to marry there was a lot of coverage of different politicians activists and so on by the media about how Oregon would vote affirmatively in that referendum. By watching the media and by hearing everybody talking about that referendum one would have thought that that would happen. But Oregon was one of the 11 States that voted against it. Even Oregon one of the most liberal States which is supposed to be more like our society in New Zealand voted the referendum down. If members in this Parliament are so confident that this legislation is for the people they should put it to the people. 
Dail Jones 
: What’s New Zealand First’s view on that? 
CRAIG McNAIR 
: New Zealand First’s view has always been to put this kind of legislation to a referendum and to let the people decide. That is what we are saying. That is what I am saying to Moana Mackey who thinks she has the people on her side. If she is so sure she should put it to the people. That is what we say; that is what New Zealand First says: we should put it to the people. New Zealand First is a party that represents the people not a party that represents minorities. We are proud of that. We ask members to support our amendment to allow this legislation to go to a referendum. 
What is established and recognised by law becomes official obviously. We all know that. This Government has already officially allowed and recognised practices that the average New Zealander out there I believe thinks are abhorrent like the Prostitution Law Reform Bill championed by Tim Barnett the member from Christchurch Central and like women being fathers fathers being mothers and all that unbelievable rubbish the Government has been pushing through Parliament. 
This Government I believe has effectively declared itself the godless Labour Party. When there is a party vote I think we should call Labour the “Godless Labour Party” instead of the New Zealand Labour Party. That is what I think the Labour Party should be called. It should change its name and say it as it is. 
MOANA MACKEY (Labour) 
: 
 We have only to raise our eyebrows slightly at Craig McNair and he absolutely explodes into this huge tirade of enthusiasm. I was not even referring to anything that he was particularly talking about at the time. If the member is happy when the amendment concerning the referendum comes up later in the Committee stage I will be pleased to give him my views on a referendum. At this point I will say only that my concern with referenda is that a country like Switzerland which uses referenda regularly did not give women the vote until 1971. 
I would like to address some of the comments that the Hon Dr Nick Smith made. I never quite understand the comparison between School Certificate and civil unions. I thought that everyone in this country was allowed to sit School Certificate. Some people passed and some people did not. It is just like marriage. Some people do really well and some people stuff up. But they are allowed to have another go at it just like School Certificate. I find it difficult to understand the comparison. Of course with marriage not everyone can have the opportunity to make a really good go of it or learn from the experience. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Everybody can get married. 
MOANA MACKEY 
: I say to Dr Smith that if they are gay they can only marry if they pretend to be in love with someone whom they are not actually in love with. Dr Smith might endorse that but I do not. 
The other point which came up quite a lot at the select committee is to say that somehow it is like the Olympics or the All Blacks. Would we let everyone be an All Black or be an Olympian? It would mean that not everyone who is an All Black or an Olympian would feel special. Here again we have this misguided idea that we are choosy about the people whom we let marry which of course we are not. If we let only the top 26 couples in New Zealand marry that might not be a bad idea because they would probably be quite good at it. But we do not do that of course. We do not let only the people who are good at marriage get married; we let anyone get married. As long as someone is heterosexual or gay and pretends to be heterosexual as long as someone is not already married and as long as he or she is not marrying someone who is a close blood relative then that person can get married. 
I find it funny that all these people stand up and say that marriage is about all these wonderful things—which it absolutely is it stands for the raising of children and it stands for good parenting—and they then turn round and say that it is not about religion because that is not in the Marriage Act. Being a good parent is not in the Marriage Act either. We have many many wonderful parents in this country who are not married. We might not like it we might say we wish they were married but the reality is that an increasing number of New Zealanders do not want to get married. We can give them another opportunity to formalise their relationship because let us face it it is easier for a Government if people are in legal relationships. 
We see the problems that we have. The Justice and Electoral Committee at the moment is looking at the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill. We are looking at the issues around social security and superannuation when it comes to de facto couples. It is really hard. I would much rather that they were in a legal formalised relationship so that there would not be any question whether this person is in a de facto relationship or whether we will have to spend lots of money investigating the relationship taking the advice of neighbours who say they saw this person staying at someone’s home for 3 nights a week then that person having to go to court to say that it is not a de facto relationship they are just friends. 
It costs a lot of money it is difficult and it is becoming a bigger problem in New Zealand because more people are choosing not to marry. Even if it is only a small percentage of people—and bear in mind that in countries like the Netherlands and France there has been a huge uptake in this type of scheme for heterosexual couples—it is a lot easier for the Government. I think that is a pragmatic point that should be raised. 
Another issue that I want to touch on is the children in these relationships. While it is true that most of these relationships do not involve children a number of them do and they will continue to regardless of whether this bill passes. The research—and committee members read an awful lot of research—states quite clearly that two-parent families have better outcomes for children than single-parent families and that is just common sense. When we look at the financial constraints on families and the parenting questions if there are two people to share them it is a lot of easier. But the research does not say that heterosexual parents are better than homosexual parents. This research has started to develop only in the last 20 years but it does not say that. The research says that the commitment of the parents to each other and to the children is what is important. 
I can get the research for the member Nick Smith who is shaking his head if he wants to read it. We can choose to make law here based on emotion on myths and on fallacies or we can choose to make law based on facts. The select committee has looked at a large amount of research. The research does not say that de facto couples are worse parents. It does not say that gay couples are worse parents. In fact funnily enough a lot of the research has come up saying that because gay people cannot accidentally become pregnant then often they are so enthusiastic when they do have a child that they are far better parents. 
MARC ALEXANDER (United Future) 
: 
 We have heard an awful lot in the past about human rights but this bill is really all about extending human rights. But it is really about scratching an itch and turning it into legislation. It is about legitimating a series of wants. People stick up their hands and say: “I want my relationship to be legitimated by the State. Make a law for me. Give me a civil union.” Somebody else will turn round and talk about a man and two women or two men and one woman and so on. They will stick up their hands and say: “This is what I want.” and they will try to ask for that relationship to be legitimated. We have lost the plot. We have marriage de facto relationships single people divorced partners and now civil union. How many more categories of adults do we need? We will carry on to a ridiculous point where we will have a tailor-made category for every single adult in this country and the Government will sanction it. It is mad. It is all in the name of so-called human rights. It is absolute bollocks. 
This bill is about wants. It is about saying to people that just because they want something it will be legitimated. It is an absolute nonsense. It makes no sense whatsoever. We have here civil union which is nothing more than gay marriage. I would prefer civil union to come out of the closet and call itself “gay marriage”. Just widen marriage if that is really what people want to do. But no because the Government does not think that the public of New Zealand will accept that it can reproduce it and call it something else and legitimate that relationship anyway. 
The odd thing about it is that we have countries around the world that quite legitimately have seen fit to have polygamous relationships. Those relationships have endured for thousands of years. But instead of looking at that and maybe bringing it into our orbit of legitimacy through the State we are jumping the gun and looking at a very small proportion of the population of this country who will wake up one day and say: “Hey turn my want into a right.” 
That makes no sense to me at all. The fact is if gay people want to have a legitimised relationship all they have to do is call a marriage celebrant and have a ceremony. They can have around them the people who matter to them and enjoy the party. If someone wants to have an authority over another’s estate or body if that person is in hospital he or she can go to a lawyer and have a document drawn up. We do not need the State’s involvement. 
I am personally against de facto relationships. I do not see that the State should be involved in trying to determine the qualitative aspects of any relationship. People either want to get married or they do not. The State should just butt out. It is nobody’s business at all. The reason why the Government ought to be involved with marriage? The simple answer is that the natural consequence of marriage happens to be children—overwhelmingly so. For that reason and that reason alone the State ought to be involved. Children are not a natural consequence of gay relationships. If gay people do have children in their relationships guardianship laws provide for that. They do not need an alternative to marriage. There is no necessity for it. 
 So the idea of dressing up human wants as human rights is nothing more than ideology. It is self-serving legislation to confer a measure that some people will feel grateful for and in turn reward the Government at the ballot box. It is nothing short of that. There is no urgency for this measure. I do not see people marching up and down the streets demanding the right to have civil unions. But the Government has decided to include this on its agenda for no specific purpose. 
There are an awful lot of issues out there that we should be concerning ourselves with. Indeed 92 percent of the population told us they want tougher sentencing and for victims to be at the heart of our criminal justice system. The Government has done nothing about that. It did not listen to the demands of 92 percent of the population. I have not seen people marching up and down the streets demanding civil unions. The public does not want this bill. It is not necessary. This is a clear-cut agenda by a small group of individuals within the Labour caucus who decided they wanted to scratch an itch and legitimise civil unions through the State. That is all it is. It is legitimating a human want by means of legislation. It is unnecessary. 
DAVID PARKER (Labour—Otago) 
: 
 I rise in support of the bill. I am married and I have children. I am not at all threatened by civil union. I do not think it undermines marriage. The easiest way to assess it is by applying the general principle—does the conferring of rights on a minority ever undermine the majority? The answer is no. It never does. The conferring of rights on a minority does not undermine the majority. It really is that simple. We have seen it expressed that simply in just about every editorial in every major newspaper in New Zealand. Why would conferring rights on the minority undermine the majority? It does not in other instances of human rights; why would it here? If we were to find there was a cause for panic in that that would be the outcome we would look to what has happened overseas. If we look at a map of Europe most of Europe now has civil union—certainly most by population. It is throughout Scandinavia France Denmark The Netherlands Germany United Kingdom and Belgium. They are even considering it now in staunchly Catholic countries like Spain. 
If we look at the countries that have had civil union the longest there is no evidence that there has been an increase in the rate of breakdown in marriage. There is no evidence that there has been a decrease in the rate of marriage. In fact the trends are the same as they were previously. In most Western countries and our country is no exception we have slightly increasing rates of marriage and slightly decreasing rates of divorce and that will not change through the passage of this legislation. 
People say we should be doing this by way of changing the Marriage Act. The previous speaker said that is the way; that if rights were to be accorded to gay people to have their union recognised we should do that through a change to the Marriage Act. I disagree. I think this bill is the appropriate way to do it. Marriage does have religious connotations. Marriage pre-dates legal institutions. It was originally an institution of societies regulated through churches. If we were to have a revolution in New Zealand and legal authority were to break down we would still have the institution of marriage. It has at its heart its legitimacy in those religious institutions. Many in those religious institutions say that marriage should remain the province of a union of a man and a woman. I agree. That is why we are not doing this through the Marriage Act because that would be to undermine the institution of marriage in the eyes of those who see it in religious terms as being the sole preserve of a man and a woman. So it would be inappropriate to do it by way of amendment to the Marriage Act and it is appropriate to do it outside of that paradigm through civil union. 
Some say that we should have a referendum. Well that is just an abrogation of responsibility. If we look overseas what has happened in referendum-based countries? The one that is most quoted to us is Switzerland. In Switzerland which does place great reliance on referenda when do members think that women through referendum gained the vote? Does anyone know the answer? 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: 1970s. 
DAVID PARKER 
: It was 1973. I thank the member. So as late as the 1970s women in parts of Switzerland did not have the vote because they had referendum-based decision-making on issues such as that. The rights of minorities will never be protected in a referendum— 
Hon Judith Tizard 
: Women weren’t a minority. 
DAVID PARKER 
: They were a minority in terms of voting because if one put that issue to the vote those who had franchise to vote on it were men. So they would not extend the right of voting to women. 
The  
Timaru Herald 
 represents an area that—like my own electorate of Otago—some would say is conservative. I would not say it is conservative; I think most southern electorates are actually liberal. The paper reported what people were saying about the Civil Union Bill and the call for a referendum. It stated that Dr Brash and others were clutching at straws last week in trying to have the matter decided by public referendum. “Dr Brash was trying to win cheap political points. He actually supports the bill. But a referendum is a bad idea. Would it be binding? If so the bill would likely be defeated. And that would go against Dr Brash’s stance. So to win votes he’s prepared to compromise what he believes. That’s pretty shallow. Non binding? What would be the point?”. 
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
: 
 This is my first call on the matter and I appreciate it. New Zealand First supports a referendum on this issue as it would on many other issues. I take Nandor Tanczos’ point. As I said in my second reading speech New Zealand First would support a referendum on the legislation dealing with GM and suchlike; we have said that. As far as a free-trade agreement is concerned in direct democracy that could be the subject of a referendum as well. So it is a question of what the people want. New Zealand First is prepared to accept what the people want and to set out a very clear question; hence the amendment to the legislation from Brian Donnelly to put this to the vote of the people and ask them whether they want a Civil Union Bill in the form that is before us today. 
Of course this is a gay marriage bill. It is based on the Marriage Act. The Government has taken the Marriage Act and replaced the word “marriage” with “civil union”. If we look at the Civil Union Bill and—for all those members who are interested—at say clause 15 the words: “Compare: 1955 No 92” is a reference to the Marriage Act. This bill is based entirely on the Marriage Act. All the Government has done is to do what all lawyers do when they want to create something new: they find the best precedent. The best precedent for the Civil Union Bill is the Marriage Act. The words have been changed to “civil union” but otherwise the Government has virtually used the Marriage Act. 
This bill is marriage in drag as someone said a little while ago. The Government is pretending it is not marriage but in fact that is what it is. That is what the Government wants of course. We have heard it said that a Labour Minister wants to be the first to go down the aisle and get married in terms of this bill. He is waiting for it. Of course that is the debt due to him from Helen Clark because he was the one—was he not—who destroyed the painting for which she was getting into so much trouble and as a result she could not be charged in court. That is the pay-off to him for this legislation. That is what this bill is all about. It is a pay-off by Helen Clark to a very few people who have done so much for her in the past. It is as simple as that. How many people would be eligible for gay marriage? It is fewer than 10000. So here we are passing a bill whereby if everyone who was in that type of relationship decided to take it up we would have 5000 civil unions. We are passing legislation for as small a number of people as that. Is that so important? 
We have on the Order Paper at the moment the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. More people are affected by that bill—probably five times as many—as are affected under the Civil Union Bill. The Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill has been before the House for about a year. The Civil Union Bill has been before the House for about 3 months. That is the priority this Government has. It is ramming this bill through the House and of course before Christmas in the hope that it will go away next year. Well New Zealand First will make sure that it will not go away next year. I am confident this will be a matter of our election policy that there will be a referendum on the gay marriage legislation being put forward by the Labour Party. There is absolutely no doubt about it. 
New Zealand First was accused by Georgina Beyer of being pious and moral. She said there was something wrong in being pious and moral. Well I am very happy to be pious and moral—I am very happy to be moral; I do not know about the pious bit. Does that mean then that Georgina Beyer and her supporters are impious and immoral? I will leave that for members and others to decide. But that is the clear implication in her speech. If she said that those who oppose this bill are moral and pious what does that say for those who support it? 
Of course there is another reason for this bill. It is very convenient to rush back into the House for another reason when the Government is experiencing great embarrassment and difficulty over Ahmed Zaoui. It is a great way to divert attention. Sir Robert Muldoon knew that the best thing to do when the Government was in trouble was to bring in an abortion bill so all the attention would be removed from the particular problem of the day and everyone would pay attention to the abortion legislation or whatever other legislation was brought in to divert attention. This bill is here to divert attention from the Government’s failure in its policy announced 2 years ago to keep national security risks in prison and of course the Minister in charge in that area is the Prime Minister Helen Clark. It is she who is trying to protect herself. She is trying to help out her old mate Chris Carter so that he can be the first to go down the aisle as he said he would. All this bill will do is upset all those young people who decide to take the challenge and get married and go through all the rigmarole of the day. 
Hon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs) 
: 
 I rise as the member of Parliament for Auckland Central to support the Civil Union Bill in its Committee stage. Most members will be aware that Auckland Central is a place where gay lesbian and transgender New Zealanders know mostly because of the Hero Parade and festival which has been held for many years that they are welcome. It is a very tolerant and inclusive electorate and a lot of people come to Auckland Central because they are creative energetic people who perhaps are of a different colour are from a different race speak different languages or are of a different sexuality from that that calls itself the mainstream. I am very proud to represent Auckland Central and all the people in it—very proud indeed. 
The year 1986 saw the passing of the homosexual law reform legislation. That was 18 years ago. I worked in an electorate office in those days and I remember calls very like the ones we are hearing in the Chamber today—that it would be the end of society as we knew it that homosexuals would be out recruiting and that children would not be safe. I believe that New Zealand is a much safer place than it was in 1986 as a result of that legislation and particularly as a result of many people coming to realise that many of us have homosexual people in our families. They are our neighbours our workmates our children and in some cases our parents. I do not believe that any New Zealander wants any member of this country’s population to be discriminated against on the basis of something that is innate and part of him or her. With all of us our sexuality is absolutely at the heart of who we are. 
I listened in 1993 to the astonishing submissions that were made on the human rights amendment bill about both people with disabilities and people who were gay lesbian or transgender. I must say that it makes me very very sad to think that people are so fearful and so ignorant about ordinary decent New Zealanders who are living the lives of citizens in our country. As a result of that human rights legislation the Government began a project called Consistency 2000 and this legislation although part of Labour’s manifesto at several elections before now is part of that Consistency 2000 process. 
New Zealanders like to think that we as a nation are progressive and fair. It is of some regret to me that because of the hysteria from a very small group of New Zealanders many countries including Canada Denmark Finland France Germany Greenland Hungary Iceland Norway Sweden and now the United Kingdom have beaten us in recognising the right to legal recognition of the partnership that is the basis of any family. Yes if one is heterosexual one can marry but of most of the people I know in my street I would say that about half the couples are married and about half are not. A significant group of New Zealanders no longer to choose to marry for a variety of reasons good and bad. But the fact is that I know from talking with my neighbours that a significant group of them would be very happy to enter into a civil union and some of them are heterosexual and some of them are homosexual. 
We have had a lot of arguments in this House about the need for a referendum but it is my passionate view that human rights are absolute and that we as members of Parliament must uphold the human rights of all New Zealanders to protect their families and to protect their relationships and to protect society as a result of that. I remember New Zealand First’s last big referendum. I think it was on superannuation. It turned into a referendum on the National - New Zealand First coalition Government and my memory is that 94 percent of people voted against it. They voted against it because they did not like the way that Government was behaving and they did not like the way that Government was approaching the people of New Zealand. I am very happy every 3 years to stand before my constituents as a Labour member of Parliament and somebody who has routinely voted for the human rights of every New Zealander. 
Dr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (National—Rodney) 
: 
 Not many members of the current Parliament were here in 1986. As I look around the Chamber I do not see anyone who was. I was and I voted against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill and I have had to live with that ever since. In my heart at the time I knew that to vote against it was not right; that to vote to make criminals out of people who have a sexual orientation because they were born that way was not right. 
But it is easy for list members to vote purely according to their conscience; those of us who represent constituencies are not absolved of our representation responsibilities by a conscience vote as we call it. All that a conscience vote is is a vote where the party whips are not applied; we are free to vote independently and not according to party policy. Of course for constituency members it is not purely a conscience vote. Our constituencies expect us to represent them in this Parliament and that creates a huge dilemma for members wanting to be responsible to their constituents as well as to vote according to what they believe. We cannot absolve our individual responsibility to vote properly in this Chamber by simply arguing: “My constituents want me to do that so that’s what I will do.” 
I have had to live with the fact that as a new member of this Parliament I gave weighting to the way that my constituents felt in 1986. I was a new member they wanted me to vote against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill and I did. As I say I have had to live with myself ever since because in my heart I knew it was not the right thing to do. 
When the Civil Union Bill came before Parliament I wanted to support it. I did not want to kick the gay community in the guts twice—maybe even three times when we take the 1990s legislation into account as well—because I do not believe that is right. I guess the other reason why I wanted to support the Civil Union Bill is that I believe that long-term relationships are positive for society and that promiscuity leads to more problems in our society. I believe that legislation that would perhaps facilitate longer-term legal relationships longer-term legal commitments between people would have to be positive for society. But when I saw the bill that was introduced my heart sank. I knew instantly as I read it that its civil union proposal looked like marriage. As I spoke some of the words of the bill to myself it sounded like marriage and I knew I would have problems with my electorate. 
 I took the trouble of surveying my electorate—not just on this issue because I did not want to get a response just from people who felt hugely strongly about it; it was a general survey of my constituents. I have counted 4000 responses. The Rodney electorate is totally divided. Of those 4000 responses the difference between the number who voted yes and the number who voted no was 50. The question I asked was not: “Do you support the Civil Union Bill?”; it was: “Would you support legislation that facilitated same-sex couples being able to enter into long-term legal commitments with each other?”. Many of those who responded that they would support that wrote on their survey forms: “But not marriage.” 
So I have this huge difficulty as I vote on this issue. My electorate is deeply divided over it. I have taken the trouble to find out what my constituents think. They clearly do not want same-sex couples to be able to enter into marriage. Yet this bill is so like the Marriage Act. I just wish that those who are promoting this bill had thought from first principles about how we can have legislation that supports same-sex couples being able to enter into long-term legal commitments to each other. We should not judge the quality of love between people. They should be able to enter into such kinds of relationships or such kinds of commitments. But why are we faced with legislation such that when people look at it they simply see the Marriage Act in front of them with just a few words changed? 
During the debate on Part 2 I will go into this a little more. One could argue that if this legislation were changed there could be greater freedom for people to celebrate their union in whatever way they liked. There is no need to be as prescriptive as the process this legislation lays out. Yet sadly it is prescriptive and that causes some of us huge problems. 
MARK PECK (Labour—Invercargill) 
: 
 I am delighted to follow the member who preceded me because I do understand the dilemma that he and other members of the Committee face. I arrived at my office last Monday to find nearly 500 emails telling me not to support this bill. Similarly over a period of time I received a whole bunch that said I should support the bill. But one thing is extraordinarily clear to me: we are sent here to make decisions. Some of the decisions we have to make are tough and we deserve to be judged for those decisions. I have had to make a number of them in this House. 
The honourable member who preceded me was here for the 1986 debate. I remind him of what one of his colleagues Norman Jones said during that period of time. He said that the legalisation of homosexuality would completely change society as we knew it. Well it did not. We all knew that it would not and we knew that Norman Jones was wrong on that. But the public of Invercargill loved him. Why did they love him? They saw that their member of Parliament was prepared to take a stand on a prejudice of theirs that they were unable to conceptualise. 
I will tell members a story about my father who is an Anglican priest. He has been an Anglican priest since 1959. He started off in the Episcopal Church in the United States and is still preaching today. He preached a sermon at St Barnabas Church—I think it is—in Bishopdale and my sister turned up to that church service. My father did not know my sister was there. My father talked about the liberal philosophy of theology which came about sometime after about the 1500s when it was defined as being rooted in scripture tradition and reason. He spoke about the responsibility of the Church to exercise reason on attitudes and morality when it came to people’s sexual orientation. What he did not know at that time and what my sister had not told him at that time was that she was gay. She has two children. She sat in that church and cried her eyes out because she knew that at least her father understood. Her father who had been a priest for 50 years understood what she was going through and exercised in his sermon to her an ability to cleanse the way she felt. She has two little children. They are the loveliest little children one could hope to meet. They are learning how to play the piano to play cricket to go swimming and to do all the other things that children do. I will not have members of this Committee say to me that my sister and my father are wrong. 
There are two streams of theology. The first comes from St Vincent and goes back to AD 434. That is the intolerant version of theology and it is now the master theology in the United States. That is what it is. I have had a gutful of those people who run around and say that they know best—that they know better than us how our families should live. That is just as bad as any other form of prejudice. The Puritanism that has overtaken the United States will cause people to suffer for a generation. It has seen George Bush be re-elected President of that country. It will see the conservatisation of the Supreme Court in the United States. It will see the abortion laws of the United States be overturned. Brian Tamaki and his thugs sat in the gallery the other day to point out those of us on this side of the Chamber who dared to stand up against them who dared to say that their prejudice needs to be put to rest. 
This is a debate that will evoke strong emotions but it is a simple matter. I have no right as a human being to tell others how to live and neither does anybody else in this Chamber. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What about smoking? 
MARK PECK 
: I say to that member that taking it to a referendum will give Brian Tamaki exactly what he wants: an ability to demonise the homosexuals of this country and to do it in a highly publicised way. His people are like the blackshirts of Nazi Germany. Members should not misunderstand it: that is exactly the agenda. That is wrong and it is time that this Parliament grew up and faced the decisions it has to make. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
: 
 If this bill was all about human rights then I guess it would be a lot easier to debate. But it is actually not about that; it is about a stupid theory that this Government has about relationships. A number of people have debated the similarity of the civil union idea to marriage. The silly idea that the Government has about relationships is that they are all the same. This bill is part of a legislative programme—which includes the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill which is still before the Justice and Electoral Committee—that would create one set of rights and obligations for all adult relationships in New Zealand. 
Hon Member 
: That’s not true. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: It is true. It is evidenced through this bill in a number of ways like the ability to swap between civil union and marriage. The Government is headed down a track where it believes that any adult relationship in New Zealand will have the same set of legal rights and obligations. I say that is stupid. It is totally impractical and it is one of the main reasons I oppose this bill. 
New Zealanders will now be in a situation whereby either they join a relationship on Helen Clark’s terms or they had better make sure they have no relationship at all. People choose their level of commitment. Traditionally this Parliament has offered people essentially a menu. If one marries there is a set of rights and obligations that go with that and they have been clearly understood. If one is not married and is in a de facto relationship there is a somewhat different set of rights and obligations. In fact if one is in a de facto relationship there are different rights and obligations depending on the circumstances—they are different for welfare entitlement as compared with property issues when a relationship breaks up. There are two different legislative definitions of the term “de facto”. 
That has reflected the messy reality of how people live their lives. This Parliament is now contradicting that directly. It is going through a bizarre process of saying to every adult New Zealander that this is how it is going to be. There are a number of gay couples who think they will have a choice about whether they have a civil union. Well they will not have a choice. When this legislation is passed they might not have a little certificate with their registration on it but they will have all the rights and obligations of a married heterosexual couple by virtue of their living together. They will not have a choice about civil union; they will be civil unionised because the Prime Minister says that they should be. They will have the same set of rights and obligations as I do and I have been married for 18 years and am a father of six. There will be no legal distinction. 
That is why that other bill sits in the select committee—because Lianne Dalziel and Tim Barnett have finally figured out that every couple in New Zealand will be treated as if they are in a long-term committed relationship. I am one of the more conservative people in Parliament on these issues and I think that is stupid. It will wreck lives. It does not reflect how our society is. We do not have a monolithic view of what a relationship should be. Relationships change and they break up and two people in a relationship can have completely different views about the extent to which they are committed to that relationship. But the Prime Minister says they are not allowed to any more. When this legislation passes there will be one set of legal rights and obligations regardless of the individual choices that people make or the individual commitment that people make to a relationship. 
The wrong people are worried about this bill. If I were 25 and exploring relationships I would be very worried. The traditional freedom of the gay community is about to go. If I were a young gay male I would be very concerned about this legislation. 
LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I will start with a quote from a book written by Alan Brash. I went to the launch of this book and he was a tremendous person who made an enormous contribution to churches to enable them to deal with really tough issues. The book is called  
Facing our Differences: The Churches and their Gay and Lesbian Members 
. I would like members to think about the following words as they contemplate the bill. He said: “As we look back over long periods of cruelty towards homosexual people we may qualify our condemnations of such treatments in view of the degree of their ignorance. But those who continue to call for such harsh attitudes today given the greater understanding we have available are in urgent need of repentance and of the changes of attitude and behaviour which repentance involves.” 
I would like to dedicate that part of the book to Brian Tamaki and the Destiny Church because I think they need to think about what they are doing in terms of the misrepresentation of this legislation that they are promoting amongst their members and their fear and loathing around a group of people who Alan Brash reminds us are people. It is important that we hold on to that as we enter into this debate. 
I was talking about this whole issue of legality recently with a gay friend of mine. He had been in the early years of a 20-year relationship with his partner at the time that homosexual law reform came in. He asked me how I would feel if police could walk into my bedroom—into the privacy of my home—and arrest me for a sexual relationship that was monogamous longstanding and absolutely private. He said I could not understand for a minute the relief that law reform brought to gay men until I imagined what that could be like. 
When the law passed people said that it was the State promoting homosexuality and that people would be doing it in the streets. It did not happen. The same thing was said when the Human Rights Act was extended to include sexual orientation. I sat on that select committee. I listened to hundreds of submissions. I was quite saddened by the fact that so little had changed since the 1990s in terms of those who came to the select committee to argue exactly the same points on the Civil Union Bill. But it did not happen then and it will not happen now. 
I went to a lunch yesterday and engaged in a conversation with a couple of older men about the civil union legislation. They declared their lack of comfort with it. They were quite uncomfortable with it. We talked about it and at the end of our conversation although they were not quite comfortable with things they were certainly much clearer about why the legislation was necessary. As I was on my way out another man came up to me and said that I would not be getting his vote for “siding with the queers”. He said he had been in the Navy—he had retired obviously—and that there had been a “queer” on board his ship but that a quick seeing-to by two other sailors with a broom made him “real nice” and he stayed away from everyone after that. I was absolutely shocked. It takes a lot to take my breath away but that statement made to me yesterday in a hotel bar in Christchurch just blew me away. How on earth could anyone say that that is a decent way to treat a human being? 
Then we have had the emails that tell us we will have polygamy paedophilia and inter-family unions and that all the people in these activities will be asking for the same rights as same-sex couples. I remind people that criminal behaviour is different from legal behaviour and that all of those are criminal behaviours. Removing the criminality of anal intercourse which is what homosexual law reform did back in the 1980s did not remove the criminality of anal sexual violation or under-age anal sex. Allowing two people who cannot marry to enter into a civil union does not logically lead to opening the law up to people having more than one partner or under-age sex or paedophilia. In fact it is as illogical and as offensive as taking a broom to a human being. If people do not think that that is still happening today they should open their eyes. 
GERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT) 
: 
 I will address a couple of comments that were made by Ms Dalziel and Mr Peck. I totally agree with the previous member. Issues pertaining to the sexual preferences and sexuality of individuals have nothing to do with the State or anybody else. It should be in the bedroom in a private situation. 
I am not easily stunned. I have been around for a few years. I was stunned when just a few hours ago my secretary showed me—how can I put this nicely—the situations wanted column in a gay and lesbian magazine which I think we all get sent. I do not subscribe to it members will understand but I was sent this thing. I was glancing through it and my eyes were literally out 3 inches in front of me. I could not believe what I was reading in a newspaper. So this issue is not just in the bedroom it is out there and “in your face”. Whether that is a good or a bad thing I am not sure. I do not think it would be a particularly good thing if that newspaper got into the hands of children for example. Nevertheless that was the reality that I saw just a few moments ago. 
With regard to Mr Peck I was delighted to hear his speech. He was hugely passionate and rightly so about his family member’s situation. I think it is appropriate and proper that members of this Parliament display passion instead of looking at things in a non-human way. This issue is very literally about passion. It is about the human condition and how we approach these sorts of issues. 
I can tell members that a council candidate in Dunedin a young fellow by the name of Grant Benson is a cross-dresser. He is a relative of mine on my wife’s side members will understand. Nevertheless he is a relative of mine and one whom I would gladly cross the street to shake hands with and greet and I would have him at my dinner table. 
 I believe that in the next week or two a couple of gay guys from down the road a bit from us—they are restaurateurs members will understand—are coming to have dinner with me and my wife. Marg said to these people: “You mightn’t want to come. I think my husband’s going to vote against the bill.” They said: “Who cares?”. That was their response. It is quite wrong I suspect to say that every gay couple is clamouring for this bill. Every couple who live together perhaps an older couple for comfort surely to goodness and a little bit of security will be unionised by this bill. They do not want that. They do not want the belief amongst people in the street that because they have a civil union—not by choice—they are in fact having some sort of sexual relationship. That is not the way many people want their relationship to be viewed. They want a choice and so they should. 
What concerns me—and I am speaking in this debate not as an expert or someone who has profound knowledge but only because I think it is important that I relate at least once my view on this bill—is that as I have said in the past and will continue to say in the future we are passing legislation of the sort that I call “the laws of the unintended consequence”. We do not know what the consequences of this bill will be in the long term. We may think we know. I think back to how cruel children can be to other children at school who are a bit different—those who are a different colour shape size or whatever. Children are hugely cruel. What if a child says he or she has two dads or two mums? I do not care about the 25-year-olds the older ones who can manage themselves in the wider world. I think about the little children who will be impacted on by this bill through design—not by default but by design. Those are my concerns. 
JILL PETTIS (Labour—Whanganui) 
: 
 I am pleased to take a call on this bill. There has been much debate this afternoon about how the bill will undermine the state of marriage. I have to say that in my opinion it is the partners in a marriage who undermine the marriage not the Government. Lack of respect for each other undermines the marriage and when respect flies out of the window love usually follows. People have said to me over recent weeks and particularly over recent days: “Please don’t vote for the bill.” When I question them patiently they cannot actually say why they are opposed to the bill. Some very strange reasons come out as to why they believe I should not vote for it. Some of these reasons are quite bizarre. Just recently a gentleman said that people were homosexual because a curse had been put on their family. He did not like the Masons either because they did things in secret too. I thought that was a bit of a slur against the Masons who do a very good job in society. 
People say that homosexuality is an abomination. They love the word “abomination”. A lot of things in life are an abomination. One thing that I find an absolute abomination is child sex tours to Thailand. These are mostly perpetrated by heterosexual men. Nobody has ever written to me about that issue in the whole time I have been a member of Parliament but I find it one of the most disgusting practices on earth whereby terribly poor children are exploited in the most awful way. Those children are truly victims. In the Civil Union Bill there are no victims. That is why this bill will assist so many people in our society both heterosexual and homosexual. 
In our boring old family we get married. My husband and I have been married for more than 30 years and in October this year we were proud parents at the celebration of our son’s wedding. As I said earlier marriages have to be worked at. I did not ask the Government to raise my children and it is not the Government’s responsibility to mind my marriage. It is the partners in the marriage whose responsibility it is to do that. With this legislation when it is passed—and I am confident it will be and I will vote for it—people have to be mindful of the fact that their relationships are their responsibility. 
A member from the other side of the Chamber said earlier that members of Parliament do not have the freedom to vote how they want to if they are constituency MPs—that is if they represent an electorate. I consult my electorate on a whole range of issues. We have had conscience votes recently about the drinking age and about euthanasia—I did not vote to lower the drinking age and I did not vote in favour of euthanasia—but we vote on all manner of important issues every day of the week. People vote for us and they expect us to get on with it. I have not had one constituent write to tell me how to vote on the Railways Bill the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill the Education Amendment Bill or the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill which is on the Order Paper before Parliament at the moment. They just expect me to get on with it and to vote wisely and in an informed way. 
I suggest that most members of Parliament are well informed about this bill. We are well equipped to vote and most of us will vote according to our conscience and the knowledge that we have gained through reading the bill and sitting on select committees. Anybody who says this bill has been rushed is saying so because he or she has just picked up the paper in the last 2 weeks. This bill has been around for a very very long time. I also want to say that I do not support a referendum. A referendum is in my opinion a cop-out. If members are not brave enough to vote on something they should change their job. 
PAUL ADAMS (United Future) 
: 
 In speaking briefly on this bill I just pick up on two terms that have come through a lot in correspondence to me and in what I have heard in the Chamber tonight. The first is the word “love” and the second is the phrase “human right”. Let us deal with the issue of love. It is a basic human need. Everybody needs to be loved by somebody. Sadly I believe of late we in this nation have done many things but we have failed to appreciate love and to teach people how to love. I assure members that love is not a sexual act. Love is a commitment of one to the other. 
With this I want to work on the “kiss” principle—“keep it simple stupid”—which I have always worked on. Dealing with human rights only two types of humans are born—that is male and female. I have yet to read in the paper that somebody announces the birth of a little homosexual boy or lesbian girl. I have yet to read a scientific report that the remains of a person have been found that are anything other than those of either a male or a female. In my opinion those are the only two types there are. 
From there we go to choices of lifestyle. I know many people in the gay and lesbian community many who have been gay or lesbian and many who have come out of being gay or lesbian. To me if they can choose to go into it and choose to come out of it it has to be a choice. I believe as has been touched on— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I am sorry to interrupt the member but the time has come for the dinner break. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
PAUL ADAMS 
: Much has also been said in this debate about the failure of marriage and sadly to a certain extent a lot of what has been said is correct. But marriages have to be built and I believe that a Government has the responsibility to help the nation build great marriages. We had a problem earlier this year with leaking buildings. Houses also need to be built and we discovered that there were challenges in the way the houses were being built. The question I ask this evening is did we loosen the regulations concerning the building of houses or did we tighten the regulations with regard to building houses to rectify the problem? The answer is that we tightened the regulations. Much concern has been stated about this bill further eroding marriage and it does that because if we begin to promote a multitude of relationships then we are not concentrating on a preferred model that is best for the nation as a whole. 
I think that a lot of the discussion is around the right of an individual but as important as individuals are we also need to see what our responsibility is for bringing the generations through as a nation. When we have young children children like my grandchildren I have great concerns that they will be taught that alternative lifestyles are the norm. At the beginning of this speech prior to the dinner break I said that as far as I am concerned there are only two types of people—male and female. I believe that every child coming up in this nation deserves to have input from both sexes. I believe that it makes a powerful difference in the lives of children if they see the firm hand of discipline of a father—and sadly that has not been built to the extent that it should have been—and likewise they should also have the loving arms of a mother. I believe that total balance is needed as young children are brought up to build really effective families in this country. 
I agree that a marriage licence in itself will never build a strong marriage. A strong marriage is built only if there is a commitment one to the other and if one learns to have patience kindness and tolerance towards the other partner. So I am certainly convinced that this bill is nothing else but gay marriage under a disguise. I also believe that the ability to take it to a public referendum should be passed in this Parliament. I have not seen such a concern come through so strongly in New Zealand for a long time and I believe that in many ways the nation is divided over this issue. I do not like that because I do not want to divide a nation; I want a united nation. 
DAVID PARKER (Labour—Otago) 
: 
 I would just like to respond to the point that the last member Mr Adams raised about legislating for morality but before doing that I will encapsulate again my view of this legislation. Conferring rights on a minority never undermines the majority. Creating civil union will not undermine marriage. Overseas experience proves that that is true. 
I shall deal with Mr Adams’ point. If Parliament could cure the ills of society by improving its morality through the passage of laws we would have a rash of legislation in the next month and New Zealand’s ills would be cured by the following month. The reality is that that is not how society operates. Parliament does not create society’s morality. Most of us think that adultery is damaging to relationships. We do not legislate against adultery or other sexual immorality except where we think it will damage young people. Where there is no damage we do not legislate. That is why we have laws against assault but we do not have laws against adultery or premarital sex. That has been the case in Western democracies for centuries and long may it continue to be so. 
I would also like to comment briefly on the call for a referendum. The  
Timaru Herald 
 said this about it with regard to Richard Worth’s proposed amendments: “He is clutching at straws just as his leader Don Brash and others were doing last week in trying to have the matter decided by public referendum. Dr Brash was trying to win cheap political points. He actually supports the bill. But a referendum is a bad idea. Would it be binding? If so the bill would likely be defeated.”—I disagree with that but in any event—“And that would go against Dr Brash’s stance. So to win votes he’s prepared to compromise what he believes. That’s pretty shallow. Non-binding?”—by that it means a non-binding referendum—“What would be the point? We would be back at square one. We elect politicians to make decisions.” To quote the  
Timaru Herald  
further: “Why should they abdicate on the hard ones? Why not a referendum on the foreshore and seabed issue smoking prostitution? And if we did all that why have politicians at all? The danger in such a course is you have majority rule and that does not necessarily produce the best law. The Civil Union Bill is essentially about human rights more so even than the morality aspect but no matter how good the education campaign the emotive aspects in any public vote would win the day. And again that’s why we have politicians; to sift through the arguments on both sides and make the best decision regardless of whether it is popular or not.” That is right. 
I would just like to say something about the Catholic Church view. Turning this into single-issue politics is in my view wrong. I have to ask where the Catholic Church in the United States was when the United States went to war against Iraq killing women and children innocents in an illegal war. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What’s that got to do with it? 
DAVID PARKER 
: It shows a double standard I say to Dr Smith. 
Stephen Franks 
: You hide behind the American shield. 
DAVID PARKER 
: Mr Franks believes that its actions were justified; I do not. I am proud of our Government which did not just follow that particular course. Where is the Catholic Church when there are other issues of international injustice? Do its bishops say: “Vote against that particular candidate on this basis.”? 
Stephen Franks 
: Yes they do 
DAVID PARKER 
: They do not take the steps that they have taken this week. I find their attitude irreconcilable with their more moderate stance in 2000 when all the Catholic bishops in New Zealand in a submission on a National Party consultation document about proposed civil unions or the right of gay people to have some civil recognition of their relationships said that they were not opposed to it. They were concerned as to the way in which it was done. They said we should not confuse it with marriage. They did not like the idea of vows. But the idea of civil recognition of gay relationships was something that as their submission on 24 March 2000 shows they agreed with. At the time the  
National Catholic Reporter 
 said: “New Zealand’s Catholic bishops support legal registration of same-sex unions though not as a steppingstone to legal marriage.” That is what they said they supported and this bill effectively does just that. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 Let me remind the Committee that we are under urgency and I want to know because no Government member has yet said why the Civil Union Bill is being rammed through the House under urgency. Sometimes a tax bill has to go through by a particular date and sometimes the expiry of some other legislation requires Parliament to take urgency. But the only reason Parliament is in urgency this evening on this bill is that Labour members know that it is unpopular. They know that this is not what the people of New Zealand want but they want to clear the decks before election year. It is as simple as that. I say to Mr Parker the member for Otago that if he genuinely believes— 
Gerrard Eckhoff 
: Current member 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: His days are numbered. His speech sounded like a suicide note. If the member for Otago really believes that he can carry the argument with the people of Otago why does the Government not just let this bill take its normal process through the House? Why are we in urgency? Can any Labour member tell me why? I have seen lots of controversial bills in my day but this is the first time that I have seen Parliament in urgency on a conscience motion. 
 I note that Labour members almost like parrots have been keen to dump on Don Brash who made a very thoughtful contribution to this debate. 
Hon David Benson-Pope 
: Ha! 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: I ask that Mr Benson-Pope compare it with this: why have we not heard from the Prime Minister? 
Hon David Benson-Pope 
: “Flip-flop Brash”. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Well let us hear about Helen Clark. Her record on this issue is that she said the only reason she married was because she was entering politics. What sort of cynical human being would go into something as important as marriage simply because she was entering politics? I will say something more about the Prime Minister. Helen Clark said then that she would prefer a civil union. It is interesting that now she is Prime Minister she is imposing her view on Parliament. [ 
Interruption 
] Is it not sensitive? It is all very well for Labour members to get stuck into Don Brash in speech after speech but the moment we bring the Prime Minister into the debate they all get sensitive. Jill Pettis starts sounding like a cat. We see them all get jumpy. But let us get the record straight. Helen Clark’s book says it all. She says—[ 
Interruption 
] What is Jill Pettis threatening me with? 
Jill Pettis 
: Be very careful. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: What is the member threatening me with? 
Jill Pettis 
: I am not talking to you. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Oh I see. Well let us be very clear. Helen Clark said back in the 1980s that she did not want to get married that she wanted to have a civil union and now she is imposing her view on the people of New Zealand. The Prime Minister Helen Clark has not participated once in this debate yet every one of us knows that she is pulling the strings from behind the scenes. We all know that on the opposite side of the House there is a list to be ranked in the next few weeks. I have no doubt that the Prime Minister has been on the phone saying what might happen to members’ list ranking if they do not vote for her little pet project of imposing civil unions on the people of New Zealand. 
I say again to the Minister in the chair the Hon David Benson-Pope that he should be upfront with New Zealanders and tell us that he is imposing gay marriage because that is what he is doing. I have not heard from any Government member a single legal difference between civil union and marriage. I have heard things like: “Oh well culturally they might be different.” Well hang on for a second we are lawmakers. What is important here is what we are putting into law. In every single statute Labour is stating that civil unions marriage and de facto relationships are identical in law. To pretend somehow that that does not undermine marriage is simply dishonest. 
MARK PECK (Labour—Invercargill) 
: 
 I want to make just one more contribution to this debate. I will spend a little bit of time on Dr Don Brash and make a few comments about his position but I want to put a couple of things on the table first up. 
Most important in this sort of debate those in glass houses should not throw stones. Can I say to people that we should not get sanctimonious in this debate. I could stand up here and tell the Committee line chapter and verse about my life—the good the bad and the ugly. In the little while that I have been dealing with some of the bad and the ugly one of the things that I have realised is that there is nothing that any member of this House has the right to judge any other human being by. I ask any member who has never transgressed against the moral codes to put up his or her hand; then I will not use the word we cannot use. It is clear to me that as human beings we all have our failings and we should all recognise that for what it is. 
I want to say about Don Brash’s position that it is morally bankrupt. I know that he actually knows that. I think Don Brash’s father would be turning in his grave over this particular matter. The Leader of the Opposition was brought up well in the traditions of a caring and Christian family. He knows only too well that allowing a referendum to go ahead will mean exactly what I said in my first speech and that is that we will have a hate campaign wheeled out against the gay community of this country—nothing more and nothing less. This is from a man who would lead this country. That is a failure of leadership. That is allowing division to be heaped upon people of this nation due to something that is not of their making. I have never heard that member in the past say we should put things to conscience votes. I have seen him in this Parliament on all sorts of legislation exercising his conscience vote. 
I had a person come to me on Friday to talk to me about my decision as to whether I would vote in favour of this bill. She is totally opposed to this bill and she told me all the reasons why she is opposed to it. She has good strong legitimate reasons. She believes that the Bible is the absolute truth. She believes that the story of Adam and Eve is the absolute truth. She believes all of that and I will never convince her that my position on the bill is right and nor am I going to try. I said to her at the end of my meeting with her that I wanted her to change seats with me. She asked what I meant. I said that she was to imagine that she was the member of Parliament for Invercargill and I asked her to tell me what she would do if I were to organise 150 people to send her emails telling her to vote in favour of the Civil Union Bill. Would she do it? She said no way not on her nelly—that it was totally opposed to everything she believed in. I know that for Dr Brash to oppose this bill is to totally oppose everything he believes in and everything he was taught. He still has time to salvage that for himself. He has to look at himself in the mirror in the same way that I do and the same way that every other member in this Parliament has to do. 
I want to say a couple of things. I referred to a letter that my father wrote to his congregation. I got it wrong. I said that it was St Barnabas Church but it was St Michael’s. At the end of my speech I will seek leave to table it. I think that it is instructive and that members will get some very interesting stuff out of it. He made a comment about Anglicanism and the three planks of scripture tradition and reason. But as I have been going through my life and taking stock of the good the bad and the ugly I have started to think again about some of my core beliefs some of which are very deeply rooted in Christianity. This is the Christianity I believe in: it is one concerned with love not punishment one concerned with service not selfishness one concerned with inclusiveness not exclusiveness and one concerned with wholeness not division. That is the religion I ascribe to. They are the things that my father taught me and taught the rest of my— 
Stephen Franks 
: What a lot of wussy new-age arguments. 
MARK PECK 
: I say to that member up there who used to be a Labour Party member that he was wrong then and he is wrong now. One day he should start to learn the lessons. He can preach all the right-wing ideology that he wants but I will tell him one thing quite clearly. There is a very good saying—I cannot remember the theologian who said it—and it goes this way: “The Christian right is neither.” It is time we had some tolerance in this debate and I am sick of the division. 
I seek leave to table a letter written by my father concerning the issues within this debate. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
JUDY TURNER (United Future) 
: 
 I rise to speak in the Committee stage of the Civil Union Bill. I find this opportunity quite a sobering one because like most people in this Parliament I have very close friends on both sides of this argument. I know that when we make a decision as to how we will vote on something like this we do it at the risk of being misunderstood and at the risk—worse still than that of being misunderstood—of hurting people whom we would rather not hurt. 
I will not be supporting this bill and the reason is that I have a very clear understanding in my mind of what marriage is about. My understanding is not religious because it pre-dates any Christian response to the institution of marriage. I guess in the crudest way of putting it marriage is about breeding. It is actually about society’s way of making sure that the children who are born are born in a safe and nurturing environment. Even people who are unable to have children or choose not to have children are constrained by current marriage law by those issues of breeding. 
The legal constraints are these. Firstly marriage is heterosexual. Secondly it is between two people. Thirdly it cannot be incestuous. As soon as we start to play around with that and claim based on human rights that one of those three legs of the stool is no longer essential—that is the requirement that it be heterosexual—we start to pull apart the fabric of that institution. In my reading of the Civil Union Bill I found it distinctly dishonest in that it is promoting—although we call it by a different name—gay marriage. 
I think that what has gone wrong here is that we have become confused in our thinking about what human rights are. I have heard the term “human rights” bandied about a lot in this debate. We have started to design human rights and hand them out like Christmas presents. But my understanding of human rights is that they apply very much to the individual and here we are applying human rights to a relational context. I for instance do not believe that marriage is a human right. I believe that human rights are about those things that add to one’s survival and to what it means to be human—anything that contributes to one’s humanness. As soon as we start adding to that definition we get ourselves into all sorts of trouble. I guess the best way if we are going to see it as a right at all is to talk about it as being a civil right. 
I plan to support the amendment from Richard Worth because I certainly would have no problem with the legal possibility of registering a relationship for the sake of that relationship. I think this issue does not have to be for instance a bedroom issue. I think there are lots of relationships that would benefit from establishing clearly the next-of-kin status that the relationship deserves providing for protection of jointly owned properties and reflecting the investment over a period of years that has been given to the relationship by providing some legal framework and legal protection around that. I think that is a good idea and it disappoints me in many ways that that was not the path we chose to tread with this particular bill. So I will be supporting that amendment. 
I think this bill does undermine marriage as we know it because we are now applying to non-breeding units provisions that were originally designed for breeding units. That is exactly what we are doing. I know that that is putting it in extremely crude terms but that is exactly what we are doing. Not only that but we are making an institution out of this new arrangement. We have always understood that social parenting arrangements would kick in whenever biological parenting arrangements fell over in some way and we have had some fine examples of that but we have never sought to make an institution out of it. 
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT) 
: 
 At this stage in nominally at least debating Part 1 of the bill I am trying to review the arguments that I have heard on the other side. One of the arguments I want to go back to is the international precedents and in particular that in France which has been mentioned. But before I do I want to think a little bit about what the Labour Party Government said when this bill came before the House. 
In its opening propaganda before anyone was allowed to see the bill we had the sentence: “Establishing civil unions in legislation means that Parliament rather than the judiciary determines the basis of relationship law for New Zealand by maintaining the initiative … rather than letting the Courts take control.” Well this afternoon in the House the Prime Minister repeated what I think was a rueful observation that we might have to start making our law clear that we might have to start putting into the law exactly what we mean because of what the Supreme Court has been doing in seizing opportunities to make the law itself. We had that from the Prime Minister as she was advising us that she was not going to do anything on a matter of national security—Mr Zaoui’s case. But we have not heard from the Prime Minister at all in this debate as to why she has allowed a bill to go before this House that has an utterly hollow core—a bill that sets up a registration relationship. Ostensibly to use the Government’s own terms a new legal relationship will be established recognising the diversity of relationships and enabling loving and committed couples to formalise their relationship without getting married. Well this bill does absolutely nothing to define any kind of loving and committed relationship. This bill says nothing about long-term commitment. This bill says nothing about stability. This bill does not prescribe a single thing about this so vital contract. 
We have been told that we have to catch up with the rest of the world; and that perhaps we should follow the example of France which successfully introduced the Pacte Civil de Solidarité in 1999. Well I decided as I usually do to go and find a little bit behind the rhetoric. Well the Pacte Civil de Solidarité does require a contract. It is actually much like Richard Worth’s proposal. It requires the individuals to sign a contract that covers things such as their intentions on inheritance and their intention that the relationship be long term. It has to be a voluntary contract. The couples set out what they will do about superannuation and benefit entitlements and inheritance—it is a proper contract—then register it. 
But that is not what this Government wants; this Government wants to leave it to the courts and I will tell members why it wants to leave it to the courts. This has absolutely nothing to do with defining the relationship between loving and committed couples. This is a vehicle with which to beat people who refuse to respect same-sex relationships. Well let me say that I do not respect marriage. I respect some married people. There are people who have honoured their commitments and there are people who have broken them reconvened and got through. There are people who genuinely mean to stay together forever and there are people who do not. We can go through an infinite variety of relationships and we respect those who despite all the vicissitudes of life end up making a reasonable bash of living together and rearing their children. So I respect some marriages. I do not respect the institution of marriage. 
The plea of all those couples who came before the select committee and said: “I want the State to bless my union so that you’ll respect me.” is absolutely vain. I respect my neighbours—a wonderful gay couple who have been together for many years. They are absolute pillars of the community. I respect them because of who they are what they are what they offer to each other and the way they live as neighbours. I do not respect their relationship and no one and no law should demand that I do. I respect them and I respect what they achieve. The most that the law should do is provide a framework that makes it easier for them to commit and makes it—and this is the nub—easier for the breach. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State) 
: 
 In rising to take a call on the Civil Union Bill I want to acknowledge the high level of public interest in this debate and the fact that good and reasonable people find themselves bound by their consciences to opposing sides of the argument. Tonight however I want to acknowledge that something else is going on. Some are using this issue as a political football to divide this nation in what we call wedge politics. It has been observed that George W Bush won the US election on a campaign organised—[ 
Interruption 
] 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: As members know there was general agreement that interjections would be minimal. That was over the top. I ask members to respect that this is a conscience vote and to respect the agreement that we had previously. 
Stephen Franks 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The Chair asked that there not be interjections. I do not believe that it was an agreement of the Committee. I did not understand it. When a member accuses people who have sincerely argued on what they think are principled grounds of indulging in wedge politics he should expect some response from members. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: That is not a point of order. The point is that interjections should be rare and reasonable and I will enforce that if necessary. 
Simon Power 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. Nobody will dispute your ruling but I would ask that you apply the same standards to the Minister sitting in the chair beside you Mr David Benson-Pope. Since the Committee resumed at 7.30 on at least three occasions the member has interjected on members speaking. I would ask that you apply the same standards to him as you apply to everybody in the Chamber. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: There had been a comment from the Minister as the member said but certainly not in excess of what we heard just then. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: In response to Mr Franks who has just resumed his seat I appreciate the fact that he does respect his neighbours who are a gay couple. What I cannot quite understand is the logic he uses to get from there to opposing the bill. 
Let us analyse briefly without regard to any particular member what wedge politics consists of. It is defined as hostility towards a minority group—in this case gays—being used to win favour with a minority; the conservative middle classes. In the US case of course it was helped by a small foreign war and the claim that God was on Mr Bush’s side. If I were God I would be a bit miffed at that suggestion. Back home we had a wee dose of it after Orewa— 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: Before I call the member I tell members that there will be silence during points of order. 
Hon Bill English 
: By general agreement there has been a pretty wide-ranging debate wider than the usual Committee stage proceedings. However I do not think that the tacit agreement of the Committee extends to lectures on political campaign theory. It does seem to me that the Committee would expect any member whatever his or her point of view at least to debate the bill rather than range as widely as the Hon David Cunliffe is. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: I take the member’s point. The debate has been wide ranging. However I ask the member to come back to the bill. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: This week it is the Civil Union Bill that is attracting the same debate. Sadly recognising that the tactics of wedge politics is not in itself enough to prevent it from appealing to our baser instincts. The power of the attack is that it ostensibly uses high principle as its shield. Principle must be countered by principle. Supporters of a proud and inclusive New Zealand must clearly articulate their own ethical base. To quote Bobby Kennedy: “We must recognise the full human equality of all people before God before the law and in the councils of Government.” 
This principle is rooted deeply in the Christian tradition. Christ healed the sick accepted lepers pardoned sinners hung out with prostitutes and set tough standards. Tolerance does not mean nihilism. In a sermon on the Mount—Mount Galilee not Mount Maunganui—he based his standards on love and care for all meeting them where they were at and helping each to live a better life. 
Divine recognition of human free will and its consequences is as old as the Garden of Eden. People make choices about their lives. They have the right to make choices that others might disagree with. But Christ himself said: “Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar; render unto God that which belongs to God”. In Christ’s teaching there is recognition that the role of the church therefore is separate from the role of the State. While I fully appreciate the sincerity of the views of many of our Christian brothers and sisters what I cannot accept is the use of the institution of the State to impose that sincerely held view on all others. 
The essence of a liberal secular State is that it makes it all right for old white men like the fellows on the Opposition side slowly rusting their way to oblivion to be heard equally with the full diversity of New Zealand. What we cannot tolerate is the idea that any one group’s interpretation confers a God-given right to rectitude. I say it as a follower of the Christian ideals myself. I say it out of good conscience. I do not say it out of anything that is politically trendy because frankly the balance of input to my electorate office has been against this bill. 
I stand for this bill because in my conscience I believe it is the right thing to do as I support the right of members opposite to hold the view that the bill is wrong. Equally I support the right of all New Zealanders to live their lives as they see fit with the full rights and protection of the law up to the point that they are harming others. That is the appropriate distinction between church and State and that is why this bill must pass into law. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National—Pakuranga) 
: 
 I am delighted to take a call in this debate because out of most of the members in this House I am probably the only one who has normally always been on the very liberal side of any of the moral issues. However on this one there will be those who think that I am on the wrong side and I feel it is worth having a little bit of a canvass of why I am where I am. 
My view is that the State has very few roles in the lives of individuals and that people should be able to make their own decisions about what they wish for in a relationship. If they are very strongly Christian they will have their Christian faith—and I was brought up as a very strict Catholic to believe this—and they should believe that their faith whatever it is teaches how they will recognise their relationships. 
But I also understand that a huge number of people in this country are of other faiths a huge number do not have any faith and a huge number are either atheist agnostic or whatever. My view is simply that it is better to leave individuals to make their own choices about how they negotiate a relationship. 
I come from a background of having lived in a de facto relationship with the same lady for many many years. We were then married—I have to say in a very ordinary service at a registry office one day—and we went back to work for the afternoon working for Air New Zealand. But marriage made no difference to that relationship. 
Therefore I say to people that if they are interested in making a commitment they can actually do that through a whole lot of the institutions that exist now. They can negotiate property settlement— 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: Unless you are gay. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No it has nothing to do with one’s sexuality. If one wants to one can go to a lawyer to get a property agreement. [ 
Interruption 
] Yes one can. I can tell members that with the family trust my family is involved in now not one of the questions we filled out when we did it all had anything to do with my sexuality. The questions asked what I wanted to do with my property how I wanted to share it who I wanted to recognise and to whom I would give power of attorney in case of my death who I wanted to recognise my body and so on—and those questions could be for anybody. 
I fear that somehow this legislation is a way of coming back and saying that we want to give politicians in Parliament some enormous power over how people live their everyday lives. I want to make it clear that I fully respect a very strongly held Christian set of values whereby people believe intensely in God and in what they believe and whereby they want to marry in a church and have the church recognise their relationship. But I also respect those who say that they do not believe in that that they do not regard that and that they want to do their own thing. 
But none of that requires this bill. Because a person loves someone and wants to stay with that someone for the rest of his or her life and because that person wants to share his or her property with that someone none of that requires Parliament. It simply does not. One of the most bizarre situations I have ever dealt with in my life is that most of the married couples my wife and I have known over the years have fought like Kilkenny cats. They have ended up separating hating each other’s guts taking law suits out against each other and fighting like stink over the property. If that is how marriage is supposed to be a great institution it has me worried—because it is not. 
 Of course it comes down to personalities and it comes down to individuals. I would like to leave it to people to make their own choices. I feel grossly uncomfortable actually on either side of this debate. I do not like Parliament debating this at all. I would rather say to people that if they want to go along to their church and speak to their priest their rabbi their mullah or whoever and say that they have decided they want to do this and in the eyes of Allah God or Baha’u’llah if they are Baha’i that they want some recognition for what they do then I say good on them. I will support them. I do not believe what they believe but I say good on them. 
But what really worries me is that there is a distinct impression in this Parliament that every individual is trying to enforce his or her view: “I believe in this so now the rest of you should follow.” One of the worries about this legislation is that there is a group of people out there who are somehow supposed to be homophobic. Let me declare right now absolutely upfront that I do not have a homophobic bone in my body. I fully support the right of gay couples to have a full and loving relationship. I cannot understand why that is the subject of the debate. 
TIM BARNETT (Labour—Christchurch Central) 
: 
 Thank you very much indeed for choosing me to speak Madam Chairperson; I almost regret your doing that as I was looking forward to hearing from Bill English. I was pleased to read only 2 years ago when he was interviewed as the then National Party leader at the last election that he was in support of the concept of civil unions. I do not quite know what has happened in the last 2 years. 
A number of people have asked about the difference between marriage and civil union. I am not someone who has ever expressed an intention to civil unionise although I am one of the members of the House who might choose that option when the legislation goes through. But I was just thinking through how different this would be. First of all of course just to respond to Maurice Williamson who wants the law to leave people to make their own choices I have never had the choice of marriage open to me unless I were to choose to marry a woman which would probably not be the most successful of relationships. Therefore there is an option that has been denied to me. 
Civil union opens up an option. Having done that and the State has forced me to live in sin for the 3½ years of my relationship I can go through a process leading up to civil union which in a legal sense is quite similar to a marriage except that I do not have to find a marriage celebrant; I have to find a civil union celebrant. The fee for a civil union will be about twice as much as the fee for a marriage therefore I will have to pay a bit more for the privilege. 
Then I think about the culture. For someone going into a marriage there are traditions about the bride’s parents funding the food at the marriage and the bridegroom’s parents funding the alcohol and the location of the wedding tends to be where the bride’s family live so there is a whole new culture that would develop around a same-sex couple going through a civil union. The culture and the traditions are different. This is a new institution a 21st century institution and a whole new approach. 
The ceremony also means something very different. Think of the couples who have been together for much longer than myself and my partner for 20 or 30 years in a same-sex relationship who have been denied the ability to marry and denied the ability to go through a single legal recognition process. There is a whole history there that will be reflected in that ceremony. Nowadays most people going into marriage have lived together for a time but probably not for 10 20 or 30 years. That is quite a different ceremony quite a different culture and quite a different tradition. 
That is what a civil union is all about. It is an institution that is open to heterosexual and same-sex couples. This institution has the language of a civil relationship and of a union rather than the language of marriage attached to it. I would be very clear were I to go through a civil union that I would not be entering a gay marriage. I would be entering into a civil union—a legal recognition process that was for me and also for my heterosexual friends a united process absolutely separate from marriage. 
What is extraordinary about this debate is that suddenly members of this Parliament are coming out as opposed in principle to marriage and Stephen Franks and Maurice Williamson in the last few minutes have indicated that they do not think we should have marriage at all. Then we heard Judith Collins and Tariana Turia say that unless we have full same-sex marriage they would not support it. So we have an extraordinary action of people dancing on the head of a pin in order to avoid dealing with the obvious issue. 
Some people argue as Maurice Williamson just did that we can deal with it all by a whole series of legal documents. A couple can draw up an enduring power of attorney a property relationships agreement in a will and suddenly out of that a couple has celebrated a relationship. Clearly those are not actions of celebration; they are purely actions of protection. But also as all members know having received a letter not too long ago from a gay couple living in Wellington even if a couple goes through all that they do not have the same level of legal protection as they do on entering into marriage or a civil union. So the civil union concept is a very simple straightforward and cost-effective way for a couple to protect their relationship. 
At the end of the day this is all about whether someone like myself and my partner whom I am in love with should be treated in broadly the same way in law as Dail Jones and his wife should be treated. People in the lesbian and gay communities are not asking for marriage they are asking for just some of those elements and I think that is very well delivered in the civil union legislation. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (National—Clutha-Southland) 
: 
 I say to the last speaker that whatever gay couples are asking for what they are getting is the Civil Union Bill and the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill. I do not think that what they are getting in those bills is what many of them think they are getting. As I said to the Committee earlier what they are getting is the rights and obligations of married people. Because of the definitions of “de facto” all relationships will have one legal framework if the second bill is passed. And that is a big question. 
This is a question for the Minister in the chair Mr David Benson-Pope who is playing solitaire on his computer. I want him to tell me that if the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill does not pass what is a civil union? I think the ACT member Stephen Franks rightly drew attention to this. This bill does not tell us what a civil union is. What it tells us is how to get into a civil union— 
Dail Jones 
: How to be unionised. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: How to be civil unionised. But the Civil Union Bill does not tell us the rights and obligations that flow from it. It was meant to have a partner piece of legislation the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill that amends a hundred other statutes. We do not have that legislation. Apparently it will turn up in March. I do not think it will turn up by the end of next year. The issues in that bill are so complex that the select committee will be unable to resolve them. 
So I feel like I have been invited by a real estate agent to buy a house only to be told: “Well I’ve got the front door but the rest of it has been taken away.” Because I have no idea now what this actually means. I know what the Government intends it to mean. As I said before it intends one set of rights and obligations for every adult relationship in New Zealand regardless of the level of commitment chosen. That is what the Government intends. I am absolutely opposed to that intention and I hope the Committee will be too eventually. When it debates the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill it will be able to express its opposition. 
But as for voting for the Civil Union Bill I ask the Minister what it is that we are voting for. What rights and obligations does any individual take on when he or she becomes a partner in a civil union under this legislation? How can this Parliament vote on this bill if it does not know the answer to that question? 
I saw the item on TV3 tonight I have read through some of the material and I have done some of my own research into the international comparisons. This one is pretty much unique because it does not say. In France they do. In Sweden it is marriage. In other countries there are different sets of rights and obligations. For instance in some countries couples can adopt children and in some they cannot. But we have no idea. We are being sold the front door without the house. The reason is that they have found that the structure of the house is fundamentally flawed. So in the debate tonight we are getting these emotional outpourings about homophobia. 
I want the Minister to answer some legal questions which any legislator has the right to ask on behalf of his or her constituents. I say to the Minister that I have constituents who want to join in civil union but I cannot tell them what it means by reading this bill. The Minister has failed to deliver the rest of the package. It is politically convenient because the rest of the package is much worse than this. This bill is the more acceptable piece in my view than the rest of it but he cannot tell us. So why are we going to be voting on this in the next couple of days when we do not know what it is? The reason is simply political symbolism. This bill is a political push not an attempt to create a set of rights and obligations. 
My colleague Richard Worth on his own has done a much better job of that than the Government. If people want to have civil union then his proposition is clear it is tidy it is well defined the parameters are known one can either vote for it or against it. It does not pretend to be anything other than what it is whereas this bill pretended to be marriage and then lost the “marriage” bit so it remains undefined. I ask the Minister to answer those questions. 
NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Tainui) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
BERNIE OGILVY (United Future) 
: 
 I rise to speak against this bill and I will tell members why. Following on from comments made by the previous speaker I say we have been sold a picture with nothing in it. I picture a ship at sea that has a big plank extended out from the side and I see the ship being hijacked by a few pirates and the whole crew being asked to walk the plank. I do not believe that that is a situation that 60 to 80 percent of New Zealanders want to be part of. None of us wants to walk that plank just because a minority wishes us to do so while they hijack the ship—in other words New Zealand. 
I see a plank that is based on a set of assumptions. As I understand it from everybody I have heard and from reading the bill and listening to the first reading those assumptions are based on what they call human rights—or civil rights as some would say. I understand that this is already in existence. We do not need these things. I have asked some lawyers about it and they point out that the Human Rights Act or the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act supports the view that the State has not been discriminating against homosexuals and lesbians up to this point. So what is the issue? 
Here we have this plank that is built on a myth on pretence. I am not convinced that this plank is very very stable for all of us to walk on. In fact it takes a lot of faith to believe in this myth and more faith than some of the Christians who have been quoted or misquoted to have faith in it. But the big issue as I see it is that this plank leads to nowhere. Even if the civil rights issues or human rights issues were issues where does the plank go? The previous speaker has rightly pointed out that the companion bill is really where it should lead to. Because we do not see what that is cannot see what it is and in fact it has been withheld from us we are going to walk the plank to nowhere. That plank leads us into Davy Jones’ Locker and we will drown in all sorts of things that as yet we know not of. In fact there are a few things that one or two people have been saying to me—such as that the good ship New Zealand is losing its way. They ask whether this bill will lead to polygamy; whether a person could marry more than one person. We do not know because we do not have this companion bill before us. “Is it possible to marry one’s son and daughter?” they ask. 
We do not know so what are we going to agree to or not agree to tonight? I think we should be of a mind to disagree on what we cannot see because these are promises that are leading to nowhere. 
Someone asked earlier why the House is under urgency. I think the answer is simple: it is to allow only a little time to get this thing through because the pirates would lose their cause if we had more time to debate consider and put this solidly before ourselves in this Chamber and before the people of New Zealand. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Port Waikato) 
: 
 Thank you Madam Chairperson for the opportunity to speak on this very important— 
Larry Baldock 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the member but I point out that many members have had only one call on this part and it was to be a wide-ranging and exhaustive debate. I do hope we are not going to see too many more calls for closure before we have all had a chance to have at least two calls on such an important bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley) 
: That is not a point of order. 
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON 
: Thank you Madam Chairperson for the opportunity to speak on this very important and somewhat controversial Civil Union Bill Part 1. Like most of my colleagues on either side of the Chamber I have been lobbied very heavily from both sides of the argument. It has been of huge interest to me that an overwhelming majority of constituents in my electorate have asked me to oppose the bill. Nevertheless I have had some very sincere and somewhat compellingly thought-out arguments from those who support it. But I must say that at the end of the day for me this is all about what one should hope for in the ideal world and I would have thought that liberal philosophy would suggest as much freedom as possible provided it does no harm. 
Surely one of the things that we should treasure greatly in this democratic country of ours is the freedoms we do enjoy. I think it was a couple of days ago that Nandor Tanczos said that the principle is utterly simple: it is about whether people should have equal civil rights. I do not think there are many who disagree with that but on balance to me why should the State be involved with the framework of designing and being involved in the celebration of a personal relationship? Surely we have in this country a strong tradition of supporting and recognising common law and surely it is a wonderful freedom for individuals and couples throughout this country whether heterosexual same sex or transgender to be able to design the framework of the relationship that suits them best and to be able to celebrate it in the way they would like. 
It was interesting to me to hear Tim Barnett talking about how important it is to him to be able to celebrate the fact that the State confer a framework that is available to him that is available to everybody else. But surely the greater freedom is for him to be able to design the sort of framework that actually suits him. We do have a common law tradition in New Zealand. So why should one in the ultimately ideal world have the State involved? That is one of the things I find personally very very hard to understand. 
 When we talk about this question of celebrating a same-sex relationship under a civil union surely we also should be talking about celebrating the fact that there is basic biological difference between men and women. Surely none us should deny the very fact that there are basic biological different functions— 
Hon Maurice Williamson 
: How do you know that? 
Dr PAUL HUTCHISON 
: —and I as a gynaecologist know that more than anyone else I am sure! However these very biological facts hopefully will be celebrated by us all. Similarly I would join Tim Barnett in welcoming the fact that he should be able to celebrate in whichever way he deems best and appropriate for him in the relationship that he has designed. I think that is a wonderful freedom that we have in this country. Why do we need this extra State framework around it when we have a strong tradition of common law in New Zealand? 
Bill English made the point a little while ago that Richard Worth my colleague in the last few weeks or maybe the last few days has designed an amendment in terms of a civil relationship bill that I think is far superior to and far more inclusive than the Civil Union Bill that has taken so long for this Government to bring up to the Parliament. 
JILL PETTIS (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
GORDON COPELAND (United Future) 
: 
 As is well known this bill is aimed at creating a new institution called a civil union for heterosexual couples. We can see that in clause 4A(1) for example. When I first realised that civil unions were to include heterosexual couples—that is the coming together of a woman and a man—I thought it was merely a sophistry to make the bill halfway decent. I thought that the real goal was same-sex marriage and that the sole aim of the inclusion of heterosexuals was to make that agenda politically palatable. That was until I read the following statement from Prime Minister Helen Clark. I will read it to ensure that I quote it correctly: “Marriage has a lot of inappropriate connotations. It carries associations with religion belief etc. My personal interest is in a secular society and I think a civil union bill is very important for heterosexual couples as well. I think it will be surprising how many people opt for that. Personally if civil union had been in place when I was much younger I certainly would have chosen that option.” 
When I read those words I was simply dumbfounded. They must surely be the most hostile words to the institution of marriage ever spoken by any leader of any country at any time in history. They stand in stark contrast to the recent action taken by the Australian Government to make it clear that a marriage comprises a union between only one woman and one man in confirmation of what the word “marriage” has meant from the beginning of human history. 
Today happens to be the 41st anniversary of my marriage to Anne. I believe in marriage whether secular or religious whether Jewish Christian Hindu Islamic Seik or Buddhist or whether it be the first second or third marriage. There is nothing like it. It is unique. It is irreplaceable. With the Greeks I believe it is the foundation of a society and of a nation. It represents God’s highest and best and His beautiful loving plan for both the joy of the spouses and for the multiplication of the human race. As an institution it cannot be bettered although through education it can be prepared for enriched nurtured and improved with great benefit to the spouses and to their children and to the whole of society. In fact society is no more than the sum total of its relationships. Marriage is a vocation founded on the love and commitment of one woman and one man. It can be built up or dumbed down by the State. It is my conviction that the Government can do so much more for marriage and the family and that was my primary motivation for coming into Parliament in the first place. Of course not all are called to marriage and not all marriages are successful. But like anything else in life the ingredients for resilience can be taught and learnt. 
So what does this bill do for marriage? Does it build it up or does it endeavour to pull it down? Is there any basis or evidence to suggest that a name change to civil union and secularisation will in any way be helpful to our country? I think not; nor do New Zealanders. We are told that there are about 150000 de facto couples in this country. Yet I was able to issue a press release on Monday of this week to say that in spite of the more than probably 1200 communications I have received about this bill I had not one single heterosexual couple tell me to vote for this bill because they intend to enter into a civil union—not a single one. 
In response to my press release I have now had one heterosexual couple contact me to say that they intend to enter into a civil union if this bill is passed and as far as I am concerned and as far as I know there is only one such couple in the whole country. So why on earth is the Government taking up the time of Parliament with this ridiculous idea to try to change the name of a rose—the name of something beautiful that has stood the test of time from the beginning of human history—and give it a new name on the basis that the existing institution is somehow inappropriate? That was the word I seem to remember Bill Clinton used in terms of his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Are we saying that that is the image of marriage that exists? Let us dump this bill. 
Hon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
CRAIG McNAIR (NZ First) 
: 
 In speaking to Part 1 I ask members to suppose I am speaking to the title. I am not—but I ask members to suppose that I am. I would call this bill the “We Don’t Care About What You Think Because We Will Do What We Want and Push Through Our Liberal Lefty Agenda Bill” because this Government really does not care what the people of New Zealand think. The reason I say that is that as we have been speaking to Part 1 the referendum question has been put to the Government and to members supporting this bill many many times. The only answers that come back are basically that members opposite are saying they should make this decision because the decision should be in the hands of members of Parliament not the people. They are saying that they know best. They are throwing a lot of fancy arguments at us but at the end of the day they cannot get away with it. If they really believe that the people of New Zealand want this they would have no problem in putting this issue to a referendum—putting it to the people and asking them what they think. 
Nanaia Mahuta 
: Can’t make up your minds. 
CRAIG McNAIR 
: That member over there says we cannot make up our minds and that is why we want to put it to a referendum. Well what a load of hogwash! Wanting the people of New Zealand to have their say is a cop-out? I hardly think so. It is a ridiculous argument even to say that we know best and the people of New Zealand do not. That is why I will be supporting the amendment to have a referendum and I hope the members opposite do too. 
Another issue I want to allude to is that of referenda in the United States. In my last speech during the first reading debate I referred to the state of Oregon. That state has actually been one of the more liberal states in the US in terms of its make up its legislature and so on in the past few years. Compared with the conservative Bible-belt states it is a lot more liberal. It is closer to California and so on. 
The United States is more like us and that is why I use it as a comparison. If one wants to be realistic I would say that Oregon is probably more like New Zealand. But even that state said no to redefining marriage and to allowing a more loose liberal definition such as the definition in the Families Commission legislation. Oregon voted no to that definition. 
I believe that the people know better than the Labour Government and the Green Party that are just ramming this legislation through. I support the people having their say. Do members know what? I feel very strongly that if the Civil Union Bill were put to a referendum it would get voted down by the people of New Zealand. I have no doubt. Members should look at such polls as the TV3 poll that was held the other day. As the bill gets nearer to crunch point people are really asking themselves what it will mean for our society in the future—not for them and their children but for their children’s children. How will the bill benefit society? At the end of the day were people to get to that polling booth they would say no it is not good for society. If members disagree with me let us put it to a referendum and we will see. Let us give it a spin. Let us give the people of New Zealand a go. That is what New Zealand First says. Instead of being a party of minority we would be a party of the people. That is what I and New Zealand First members say very strongly. 
I want to raise another issue. I have heard Tim Barnett say that we discriminate if we vote against this bill. 
DIANNE YATES (Labour—Hamilton East) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 62 
New Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2. 
Noes 58 
New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 9; United Future 8; Maori Party 1. 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 47 
Adams 
Eckhoff 
Perry 
Tisch 
Alexander(P) 
English 
Peters J(P) 
Turia(P) 
Baldock 
Franks 
Peters W 
Turner(P) 
Brash(P) 
Gudgeon 
Power 
Wang 
Brown 
Heatley(P) 
Prebble 
Williamson 
Carter D(P) 
Hutchison 
Roy 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter J(P) 
Jones 
Ryall(P) 
Worth(P) 
Catchpole(P) 
Key(P) 
Scott(P) 
Coddington(P) 
Mapp(P) 
Shirley 
Collins(P) 
McNair 
Smith L(P) 
Connell(P) 
Newman 
Smith M 
Copeland 
Ogilvy(P) 
Stewart(P) 
Teller: 
Dunne(P) 
Paraone(P) 
te Heuheu(P) 
Smith N 
Noes 72 
Anderton(P) 
Duynhoven(P) 
Kedgley(P) 
Robson(P) 
Ardern(P) 
Dyson(P) 
King(P) 
Samuels(P) 
Barker 
Ewen-Street 
Laban(P) 
Simich 
Barnett 
Fairbrother 
Locke 
Sowry(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Field(P) 
Mackey J(P) 
Sutton(P) 
Beyer(P) 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Mackey M(P) 
Swain(P) 
Bradford(P) 
Gallagher(P) 
Maharey(P) 
Tamihere(P) 
Brownlee(P) 
Goff 
Mahuta(P) 
Tanczos 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Tizard (P) 
Carter C(P) 
Goudie(P) 
Mark(P) 
Turei(P) 
Chadwick 
Hartley(P) 
McCully(P) 
Ward(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hawkins 
O’Connor(P) 
Wilson(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hereora(P) 
Okeroa(P) 
Wong(P) 
Cosgrove(P) 
Hide(P) 
Parker(P) 
Yates 
Cullen 
Hobbs 
Peck 
Cunliffe(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Pillay 
Dalziel 
Horomia(P) 
Rich(P) 
Donald(P) 
Hughes 
Ririnui(P) 
Teller: 
Duncan 
Hunt(P) 
Robertson 
Pettis 
Amendment not agreed to. 
The question was put that the following amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 314 in the name of Richard Worth to clause 4 be agreed to: 
to omit the definitions of  
civil union celebrant exempt body licence 
 and  
prohibited degrees of civil union 
. 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 47 
Adams 
Eckhoff 
Perry 
Tisch 
Alexander(P) 
English 
Peters J(P) 
Turia(P) 
Baldock 
Franks 
Peters W(P) 
Turner(P) 
Brash 
Gudgeon 
Power(P) 
Wang 
Brown 
Heatley 
Prebble 
Williamson 
Carter D(P) 
Hutchison 
Roy 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter J(P) 
Jones 
Ryall(P) 
Worth 
Catchpole 
Key(P) 
Scott(P) 
Coddington(P) 
Mapp(P) 
Shirley 
Collins(P) 
McNair 
Smith L(P) 
Connell(P) 
Newman(P) 
Smith M 
Copeland 
Ogilvy(P) 
Stewart(P) 
Teller: 
Dunne(P) 
Paraone(P) 
te Heuheu(P) 
Smith N 
Noes 72 
Anderton(P) 
Duynhoven(P) 
Kedgley(P) 
Robson(P) 
Ardern(P) 
Dyson(P) 
King(P) 
Samuels(P) 
Barker 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Laban(P) 
Simich(P) 
Barnett 
Fairbrother 
Locke(P) 
Sowry(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Field(P) 
Mackey J(P) 
Sutton(P) 
Beyer(P) 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Mackey M(P) 
Swain(P) 
Bradford(P) 
Gallagher(P) 
Maharey(P) 
Tamihere(P) 
Brownlee(P) 
Goff(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Tanczos 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Tizard(P) 
Carter C(P) 
Goudie(P) 
Mark(P) 
Turei(P) 
Chadwick 
Hartley(P) 
McCully(P) 
Ward(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hawkins 
O’Connor(P) 
Wilson(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hereora(P) 
Okeroa(P) 
Wong(P) 
Cosgrove(P) 
Hide(P) 
Parker(P) 
Yates(P) 
Cullen 
Hobbs(P) 
Peck(P) 
Cunliffe(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Pillay 
Dalziel 
Horomia(P) 
Rich(P) 
Donald(P) 
Hughes 
Ririnui(P) 
Teller: 
Duncan 
Hunt(P) 
Robertson(P) 
Pettis 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to 
. 
Ayes 47 
Adams 
Eckhoff 
Perry 
Tisch 
Alexander(P) 
English 
Peters J(P) 
Turia 
Baldock 
Franks(P) 
Peters W(P) 
Turner(P) 
Brash 
Gudgeon(P) 
Power(P) 
Wang 
Brown 
Heatley(P) 
Prebble 
Williamson 
Carter D(P) 
Hutchison 
Roy 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter J(P) 
Jones 
Ryall(P) 
Worth(P) 
Catchpole(P) 
Key(P) 
Scott(P) 
Coddington(P) 
Mapp(P) 
Shirley 
Collins(P) 
McNair 
Smith L(P) 
Connell(P) 
Newman 
Smith M 
Copeland(P) 
Ogilvy(P) 
Stewart(P) 
Teller: 
Dunne(P) 
Paraone(P) 
te Heuheu(P) 
Smith N 
Noes 72 
Anderton(P) 
Duynhoven(P) 
Kedgley(P) 
Robson(P) 
Ardern(P) 
Dyson(P) 
King(P) 
Samuels(P) 
Barker 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Laban(P) 
Simich 
Barnett 
Fairbrother(P) 
Locke(P) 
Sowry(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Field(P) 
Mackey J(P) 
Sutton(P) 
Beyer(P) 
Fitzsimons 
Mackey M(P) 
Swain(P) 
Bradford(P) 
Gallagher(P) 
Maharey(P) 
Tamihere(P) 
Brownlee(P) 
Goff(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Tanczos 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Tizard(P) 
Carter C(P) 
Goudie(P) 
Mark(P) 
Turei(P) 
Chadwick(P) 
Hartley(P) 
McCully(P) 
Ward(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hawkins 
O’Connor(P) 
Wilson(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hereora(P) 
Okeroa(P) 
Wong(P) 
Cosgrove(P) 
Hide(P) 
Parker(P) 
Yates(P) 
Cullen(P) 
Hobbs(P) 
Peck(P) 
Cunliffe(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Pillay(P) 
Dalziel(P) 
Horomia(P) 
Rich(P) 
Donald(P) 
Hughes 
Ririnui(P) 
Teller: 
Duncan 
Hunt(P) 
Robertson(P) 
Pettis 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
That the amendment be agreed to. 
Ayes 47 
Adams(P) 
Eckhoff 
Perry 
Tisch 
Alexander(P) 
English 
Peters J(P) 
Turia(P) 
Baldock(P) 
Franks 
Peters W(P) 
Turner(P) 
Brash(P) 
Gudgeon(P) 
Power 
Wang 
Brown 
Heatley(P) 
Prebble 
Williamson 
Carter D(P) 
Hutchison(P) 
Roy 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter J(P) 
Jones 
Ryall(P) 
Worth(P) 
Catchpole(P) 
Key(P) 
Scott(P) 
Coddington(P) 
Mapp(P) 
Shirley 
Collins(P) 
McNair 
Smith L(P) 
Connell(P) 
Newman 
Smith M 
Copeland 
Ogilvy(P) 
Stewart(P) 
Teller: 
Dunne(P) 
Paraone(P) 
te Heuheu(P) 
Smith N 
Noes 73 
Anderton(P) 
Duynhoven(P) 
King(P) 
Simich 
Ardern(P) 
Dyson(P) 
Laban(P) 
Sowry(P) 
Barker 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Locke(P) 
Sutton(P) 
Barnett 
Fairbrother(P) 
Mackey J(P) 
Swain(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Field(P) 
Mackey M(P) 
Tamihere(P) 
Beyer(P) 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Maharey(P) 
Tanczos 
Bradford(P) 
Gallagher(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Tizard(P) 
Brownlee(P) 
Goff(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Turei(P) 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mark(P) 
Ward(P) 
Carter C(P) 
Goudie(P) 
McCully(P) 
Wilson(P) 
Chadwick(P) 
Hartley(P) 
O’Connor(P) 
Wong(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hawkins 
Okeroa(P) 
Yates(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hereora(P) 
Parker(P) 
Cosgrove(P) 
Hide(P) 
Peck(P) 
Cullen(P) 
Hobbs(P) 
Pillay(P) 
Cunliffe(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Rich(P) 
Dalziel(P) 
Horomia(P) 
Ririnui(P) 
Donald(P) 
Hughes 
Robertson(P) 
Donnelly 
Hunt(P) 
Robson(P) 
Teller: 
Duncan 
Kedgley(P) 
Samuels(P) 
Pettis 
A personal vote was called for on the question  
The Part 1 be agreed to. 
Ayes 65 
Anderton(P) 
Dyson(P) 
Laban(P) 
Simich(P) 
Barker 
Ewen-Street(P) 
Locke(P) 
Sutton(P) 
Barnett 
Fairbrother(P) 
Mackey J(P) 
Swain(P) 
Benson-Pope 
Fitzsimons(P) 
Mackey M(P) 
Tanczos 
Beyer(P) 
Gallagher(P) 
Maharey(P) 
Tizard(P) 
Bradford(P) 
Goff(P) 
Mahuta(P) 
Turei(P) 
Burton(P) 
Gosche(P) 
Mallard(P) 
Ward(P) 
Carter C(P) 
Hartley(P) 
Okeroa(P) 
Wilson(P) 
Chadwick(P) 
Hawkins 
Parker(P) 
Wong(P) 
Choudhary(P) 
Hereora 
Peck(P) 
Yates(P) 
Clark(P) 
Hide(P) 
Pillay(P) 
Coddington(P) 
Hobbs(P) 
Prebble 
Cullen(P) 
Hodgson(P) 
Rich(P) 
Cunliffe(P) 
Horomia(P) 
Ririnui(P) 
Dalziel(P) 
Hughes 
Robson(P) 
Donald 
Hunt(P) 
Roy 
Donnelly 
Kedgley(P) 
Samuels(P) 
Teller: 
Duncan 
King(P) 
Shirley 
Pettis 
Noes 54 
Adams(P) 
Duynhoven(P) 
O’Connor(P) 
te Heuheu 
Alexander(P) 
Eckhoff 
Ogilvy(P) 
Tisch 
Ardern(P) 
English 
Paraone(P) 
Turia(P) 
Baldock(P) 
Field(P) 
Perry 
Turner(P) 
Brash(P) 
Franks 
Peters J(P) 
Wang 
Brown 
Goudie(P) 
Peters W(P) 
Williamson 
Brownlee 
Gudgeon(P) 
Power 
Woolerton(P) 
Carter D(P) 
Heatley(P) 
Robertson(P) 
Worth(P) 
Carter J(P) 
Hutchison (P) 
Ryall(P) 
Catchpole(P) 
Jones 
Scott(P) 
Collins(P) 
Key(P) 
Smith L(P) 
Connell(P) 
Mapp(P) 
Smith M 
Copeland 
McCully(P) 
Sowry(P) 
Cosgrove(P) 
McNair 
Stewart(P) 
Teller: 
Dunne(P) 
Newman 
Tamihere(P) 
Smith N 
Part 2 Civil unions 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
: 
 Here we are in urgency passing a piece of social engineering from this Labour Government. I want to object to three particular elements of the process in respect of this debate. The first thing is to ask why on earth we need to deal under urgency with an issue as important as the very structure of the families of our society. What is the great rush? I would like to know from George Hawkins or any other Labour member how they justify rushing this sort of provision through the House prior to Christmas. 
The second point I wish to make is this: why will Labour members not be honest and say that this is the “Gay Marriage Bill”? In every single element of law whether education law health law or superannuation law—in every single one of the 1034 areas affected—marriage and civil union are to be absolutely identical. I say to the members opposite that if they really have the courage of their convictions why do they not say they are legislating for gay marriage? 
The third part of the process of this bill that is appalling is that its associated bill the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill has been deferred. Why is Parliament under urgency being asked to pass this bill when the Government has acknowledged that there are problems and complications with the second bill? 
 The further point I want to make is that Government members have repeatedly said that this bill does not undermine marriage. What this bill and its associated bill propose to do is to say that it makes absolutely no difference in terms of the law of the land whether one is in a same-sex civil union married or in a de facto relationship. I ask members opposite why on earth anybody would get married. If people can shack up get the same rights and what is more walk out the next day with none of the hassles of getting a divorce—if they can get straight out of the relationship—why would anyone bother getting married? Members opposite say this bill does not undermine marriage. Of course it does. 
Darren Hughes 
: How? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: I shall explain for the member for Otaki who said that it does not undermine marriage. Without any obligations without any requirement to do anything in the form of a marriage people can enter into a de facto relationship and pick up via the Relationships (Statutory References) Bill all 1034 of the legal rights that go with being married. So why bother marrying? 
Darren Hughes 
: But this is the Civil Union Bill. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Mr Hughes is interjecting that this is the Civil Union Bill but the Government introduced the two bills together and I have had absolutely no indication from the Government that it will make any change in that second part of the process. Will Darren Hughes support me in saying that it is a nonsense for Parliament to debate this bill without the other bill? I heard another member say it was like being asked to buy the door of a house without knowing the structure of it and he is right. But only the Government can take responsibility for the weird way in which we are being forced to debate this issue. I tell Mr Hughes that the only thing we can take from that is what is always set aside and that is that civil union and marriage will be identical and that is wrong. 
LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I believe that there is something that undermines marriage and that is infidelity—where a husband cheats on his wife and takes to his bed a woman who is not his wife. He is married to that woman they have children together they live together and to all intents and purposes they have a perfect and happy life together but he breaks the sacred vow they made on their wedding day by cheating on his wife children church family community and the whole of society. Gay couples do not do that to another relationship—unless they are breaking the particular commitment that they have made to each other. The point I am making is that it is extremely hypocritical to suggest in any context that because a husband and wife have the perfect marriage from the outside that marriage is perfect on the inside as well. It is wrong. 
 I think it is important for people to realise that what we are debating in this Chamber is actually whether a couple who want to make a commitment to each other for the rest of their lives are entitled to have that commitment recognised by the law. This is not about gay marriage; this is about allowing same-sex couples to have their genuine committed relationships recognised by the law. I do not believe that there is anything wrong with saying that we welcome people entering into long-term committed relationships. I sat at the select committee and heard people say that gay people were more promiscuous than everyone else. I was surprised that so many heterosexual people had not had sexual relations before they got married. I was very surprised that so many men had never had sexual relations with anyone other than the woman they had married. I was surprised at the numbers of those people who came before the select committee. I assume that that was what they were saying because it was the standard they expected of everyone else. 
 But what is really the issue is that a couple who are together want to be able to have a ceremony that acknowledges their relationship so that they can then spend the rest of their life together having an anniversary date on which they can celebrate the beginning of their relationship. I probably have an anniversary date other than my wedding date. It is the date I started living with my husband—living in sin I guess some of the church people who came before the select committee would have said. I lived with my husband for 5 years before we got married. I have been married to him for 4 years. My wedding anniversary is my anniversary date not the date that we started living together. I see nothing wrong with allowing a date to be given to people who want to make that commitment to each other. Surely that encourages stability and genuine relationships in our society. Why does it matter that they are same-sex relationships? Those relationships will continue to exist de facto if not de jure. 
People have made the point that we are in urgency. These are the normal sitting hours of the House. The House normally sits until 10 o’clock on a Tuesday night. All that urgency is is extended sitting hours. It is a nonsense to suggest that this bill is being rushed through. The select committee sat through hundreds of submissions and we listened to them very carefully. Some of us sat on the select committee and took our role very seriously. Even though Murray Smith from United Future has a view different from mine on this bill I have to respect the contribution he made at the select committee. I see Edwin Perry from New Zealand First; he had exactly the same level of commitment at the select committee. We can have differences of view and we can respect those views. 
This is not about gay marriage; this is about accepting that there are couples in our society who are different. They are not heterosexual; they are homosexual. There are gay and lesbian couples in our community who deserve to have their relationships recognised in the law. That is all that civil union does. It does not threaten my marriage. It does not threaten the marriage of any members in this Chamber—unless that marriage is threatened by infidelity by their walking away from the promises they made to their wives on the day they got married by their breaking those promises. I have never broken that promise to my husband and I made that promise genuinely. I would never betray the trust that he has in me and that I have in him. 
DAIL JONES (NZ First) 
: 
 Despite the previous speaker wanting us to get into true confessions I will not take that course. [ 
Interruption 
] I should have been so very lucky perhaps. 
I make the point that this is a gay marriage bill and it is this part above anything else that makes that absolutely clear. Clause 8 “Age of eligibility” tells us when one can get involved in a gay marriage. The previous comparative section is a section from the Marriage Act. Members should compare this bill to that Act of 1955—Act No. 92—because when we look at it we can see a similar section with regard to marriages. As far as this bill is concerned partners are not to be already married or in a civil union so we are talking about marriage in the same breath as civil union. 
Clause 9 is headed: “Partners not to be within prohibited degrees of civil union” and we can compare that to another section in the Marriage Act. There is the same type of degrees of relationships as exists in the Marriage Act. 
I do not know much about the gay marriage that is proposed but when it concerns a man and a man and when in the legislation there are prohibited degrees of man and man I ask whether it is really necessary. I would not have thought so. It is irrelevant but here we are pretending. 
That is what this bill is about. There is a lot of pretence and make-believe. The Government wants a gay couple to be like man and wife so it pretends that the same prohibited degrees of man and women apply to a homosexual or lesbian relationship. The reason we have these prohibited degrees for a man and a woman is to prevent the problems that arise from an incestuous relationship—people marrying first or second cousins etc. as the case might be. That is something that goes back hundreds and thousands of years because it was known even in those days that those close relationships could result in problems. 
So we have the gay marriage situation. It is like little boys and girls playing doctors and nurses—or little boys and boys playing doctors and nurses I suppose. The Government still wants them to play at being husband and wife so it plays at having prohibited degrees of civil union. It is grotesque to have this type of thing in the bill. It is absolutely grotesque for one to possibly believe that this thing could exist but that is what this Labour Party—with Helen Clark as its leader—is imposing on us. 
Before I came to the House I used to hear people talk about “Helengrad”. Now we are well and truly going to live in “Helengrad” if this type of grotesque relationship is being foisted on the House supported principally by every Green member of Parliament. 
In clause 10 we talk about: “Order dispensing with prohibition on civil union within prohibited degrees of affinity” and we carry on with the same provisions that are in the Marriage Act. We even talk about solemnisation by civil union celebrants. We use the word “solemnisation”. In my view that is nothing to do with anything other than a form of formal marriage between a man and a woman—one solemnises something with a celebrant. But the Government still has to go on with this grotesque pretence and pretend that it is something wonderful and new—just like a solemnisation between a man and a woman which it will never be and can never be. There is solemnisation by a registrar and couples have to get licences. There is more solemnisation by a civil union celebrant and then solemnisation by an exempt body. The Government loves these words and loves this pretence of people being in a marriage situation but we know that it is not a marriage situation. It is just something utterly false and make-believe. 
Then in clauses 17 and 18 the Government talks about the “Changing form of relationship”. I will be supporting the amendments being put forward by United Future members to delete or amend clauses 17 and 18 as the case may be just as I think about 11 New Zealand First members who supported the amendments put forward by Richard Worth. I think that that should be put on the record as well. That is the way we voted. 
We do not want to be intolerant and Richard Worth came up with a very reasonable suggestion. In taking a tolerant view of it we thought we would go along with that provision even though we opposed the bill bearing in mind that Richard Worth’s provisions also had a referendum linked to them as well. New Zealand First is prepared to have an open mind on this issue; our members are prepared to look at other members’ views. So the views of Richard Worth and United Future members have been and will be supported by New Zealand First. 
DAVID PARKER (Labour—Otago) 
: 
 I would like to deal with a couple of issues that have been raised by earlier speakers. The first relates to the idea that somehow this is a Labour Party agenda being pushed out and ahead of the will of the people and that there is not a broad mainstream viewpoint in favour of this bill. It is interesting is it not? That viewpoint really has no credibility. The  
New Zealand Herald 
 editorial the  
Press  
editorial the  
Timaru Herald 
 the Ashburton paper the  
Southland Times 
—from Mr English’s own electorate and from mine—and the  
Otago Daily Times 
 were all unambiguous and are clearly in favour of this legislation. There is absolute unanimity on the part of all those editorials. How in the face of those considered editorials from hardly left-wing rags or harbingers of advancement of radical issues can the Opposition still try to assert—I say without any credibility—that this bill is some outrageous Labour Party agenda ahead of the nation? 
Dr Smith and Mr English have both made reference to an issue that Stephen Franks has raised previously about how we should not be automatically conferring on de facto relationships rights that should be reserved for or opted into through marriage or civil union. Those members say through marriage only; I say through marriage or civil union. I actually agree with that point. I think that most of us do think that there is something special about some relationships symbolised in some way by an official recognition of a long-term relationship and that we ought not automatically give the same rights to all de facto relationships. I agree with that. What I disagree with is that we should for reasons of gender exclude gay people from having a legally recognised relationship that gives them certain protections which might be different from what is given to de facto relationships. 
Hon Member 
: Vote for Richard Worth’s amendments. 
DAVID PARKER 
: No I disagree with Mr Worth’s amendments. I agree with the general proposition I have just put but what I disagree with is the leap of faith and the lack of logic that takes that argument to the next step and says that because that issue is not yet resolved we should not actually deal with the issue of civil unions. Why not? 
I take this back to the first comment I made in my first call. I am married and I have children but I do not believe that civil unions threaten the institution of marriage—not my marriage nor any other marriage. Giving rights to a minority never undermines the majority. It is that simple. It does not undermine the majority. Anyone who has a view to the contrary I am afraid with respect is wrong. If members look at any other area of human rights they will see that affording human rights to the minority never takes away anything from the majority. It just gives rights to the minority. It does not undermine the majority in any way. 
In terms of the suggestion that we should have a referendum again the newspapers have been pretty clear and wise on that. That would be abrogating the responsibility we have as parliamentarians to hear the arguments and make a wise decision. It is no more appropriate to have a referendum on this issue than it is on the foreshore and seabed or any other contentious issue that comes before Parliament. We are well able to hear the arguments. We take responsibility and I will take responsibility for the vote I cast. I will be judged by my constituents and I am confident notwithstanding the rhetoric from National to the contrary that at the end of this term my constituents will be satisfied that I have taken my responsibilities seriously and cast my vote wisely and will return me in Otago. The idea that we should devolve the difficult decisions involving the rights of minorities to referenda is one that would always favour the majority over the minority and would abrogate the rights of the minority in favour of the majority. 
STEPHEN FRANKS (ACT) 
: 
 This part is the part that actually does the damage. This is the part that creates this pantomime of marriage where the intention is clearly to invoke a State blessing for a relationship without defining the relationship or setting out what the relationship should contain. When the select committee was working through this part we seriously looked at—in fact we asked for some drafting on—what a civil union might be. 
We fiddled around with the solemnisation as it is called and now have the words which I do not think are going to become immortal words that must represent the vow. Clause 15(2) states: “During the solemnisation in the presence of the civil union celebrant and at least 2 witnesses each party must make a clear statement to the other that—(a) names both parties; and (b) acknowledges that they are freely joining in a civil union with each other.” That is all it says. What it is doing is trying to hitchhike on those sonorous words that bring tears to the eyes of mothers every weekend. There is a variance of words but they are words such as: “Forsaking all others till death do us part for better for worse in sickness and in health for richer for poorer.” Those are the words that have created the respect for marriage. Those are not in any Act. Those words have been negated by a series of Governments that decided they could make these promises unenforceable. They have been negated to the point where the institution of marriage itself is not something to be looked up to and respected as far as it extends to law. 
What the select committee briefly discussed but did not get to doing was looking at what Richard Worth eventually has said. He said that all we should be doing is saying people can opt in to being treated for legal purposes as a couple wanting next-of-kin rights and wanting the superannuation entitlements. 
Sitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)