Xu-Nan Lawrence; Seymour DavidDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green): Thank you Mr Chair. My question is around early childhood education (ECE). The network approval was something that was introduced in February 2023 as part of the Early Learning Action Plan and objective 5.1 states that early learning services are part of a planned and coherent education ecosystem that is supported accountable and sustainable. So my question to the Associate Minister of Education is: out of curiosity when the Minister said as part of the annual review hearing that network management is a burden did he consult with ECE teachers on this? I'm not referring to the managers and directors of for-profit ECE companies or the Early Childhood Advisory Committee. Also has the Associate Minister taken sector leaders such as the New Zealand Educational Institute's Kōriporipo report last year into consideration?Hon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education): Well yes I want to first of all thank the member for the question. There's quite a lot there. For example he seemed to make a point of some centres being for profit as being a problem almost something pejorative. Well let me tell the member: if he walks into any early childhood education (ECE) centre—in fact any school in this country—he will find furniture electronic devices carpets buildings. You know what? That's all made by people who are for profit. It's not really obvious why the member has a problem with profit in early childhood education because if he went into any centres he'd be surrounded by the products of for-profit entities.The member asked a question about network management. Well once again this is why the member's side lost the Cold War. You see there used to be a belief that if we had a Government that could tell people where to invest and what to invest in and what exactly was necessary in each part of the country then we'd all be better off. And what was discovered—long and painfully I might add—was that Governments generally don't know exactly where to invest. They don't know the best places for people to do business. They don't understand community demand as well as the people who are involved in running the businesses. So we're getting rid of network management because it creates an additional burden on the people managing the centres.The member asks if we consulted the teachers. Well no not really because they're not the ones that are making decisions about when to expand or when to open or when to close a centre so it would be unusual to consult people that aren't really affected by a regulation on the regulation. What we have done is spoken to the people who manage and represent the people who manage centres because we know that actually it's them who risk their money to make things happen who have the best insight into where centres should be built.It's a really important point that over the last 20 years we have seen enormous investment in the early childhood education network. I visit these centres and they are overwhelmingly well maintained superb facilities that have been built by these for-profit operators at zero cost of investment capital to the Crown. I actually think that that is a wonderful thing and rather than telling them where to build and putting them through rigmarole before they're allowed to build we should actually just let them keep building these wonderful facilities for kids at no cost to the Crown. Doesn't that sound pretty good?Then the member finally asked me if I have consulted with the NZEI the New Zealand Educational Institute or the union that represents some early childhood and primary sector leaders. Well yes I have met with them and I think the member would have enjoyed being a fly on the wall in the meeting to be honest. But probably the most useful thing I got from them was a survey of their members of some of these teachers. What the survey told me is that one of the concerns—if not the greatest—of unionised teachers in the ECE sector was actually the red tape and regulation that the Government puts on them when they're trying to do their job.So to conclude for the member this Government believes that early childhood education is vital; that it can be better; that it's over-regulated—that's a view that is shared by the teachers; and that people can make profit out of it. If that means they're building a network of education centres that are very well maintained and have no capital cost to the Crown that's not such a bad thing. And if the member's opposed to profit then next time he goes to an early childhood education centre he should ask himself where everything from the food to the carpet came from and figure out how in his communist utopia any of those things would be provided without profit.