Lee DeniseDENISE LEE (National—Maungakiekie): Thank you Madam Chair. I'd like to talk to clause 4 which inserts new section 18A which outlines that union delegates are entitled to reasonable paid time to undertake union activities. Now for those of us on the Education and Workforce Committee this particular clause was a great mystery because—I'll call it the out then in then out" clause. There was somewhat of a yo-yo series of activity with this clause. When the bill was first introduced the definition of "reasonable union activity" was undefined and vague. There were a large number of submitters—and we all heard them—rightly pointing out that leaving these terms open to interpretation could easily result in significantly different expectations and conflict between employers and unions. It was really not what people would like expect or look forward to. Many submitters proposed that the bill should specifically define what is meant by "union activity". Again those of us on the Education and Workforce Committee heard from many particular submitters. They wanted to avoid any of these misunderstandings when it came to knowing exactly what the differences in interpretation would be. So that sounds like a great idea. We all could feel the atmosphere of that in the select committee and lo and behold the ministry agreed. We had recommendation No 1 in the departmental report and that was to "Clarify [that] union activities are the purposes listed in section 20 of the Act with the exception of seeking to recruit employees as union members." So that was quite handy I thought. The current legislation already outlines specifically what union activity involves. We approved that recommendation from the ministry and the Parliamentary Counsel Office put it into the working version of the report. However on 3 September over a month after first receiving that departmental report—over a month later—we received the following letter from the ministry: "Since the time of writing the departmental report further information has come to light about the current practice between union delegates and employers around paid time to undertake union activities. Most notably further information has highlighted that some delegates received paid time to perform union activities which are broader than those activities listed in sections 22 and 23(a) and (c) of the Employment Relations Act 2000. Given this risk the Government considers that the bill should not impact on existing practices and proposes rescinding recommendation 1 in the departmental report. On this basis it's recommended that the bill does not define what a union activity is."Now this seemed extremely unusual and when we asked why this was at select committee we were told "The Minister's office had concerns raised." I've got a question for the Minister: did these concerns originate from his office or were representations made to his office from other organisations that he thereby acted on? If we look at section 20 of the Employment Relations Act it outlines what makes up the current definitions for union business and it's quite extensive. Here is a few of those and I'm quoting from the Employment Relations Act 2000 section 20(2): "The purposes related to the employment of a union's members include—(a) to participate in bargaining for a collective agreement: (b) to deal with matters concerning the health and safety of union members: (c) to monitor compliance with the operation of a collective agreement: (d) to monitor compliance with this Act and other Acts dealing with employment-related rights in relation to union members:"—and I'm just going to quote a couple more and then I have two more questions for the Minister—"(e) with the authority of an employee to deal with matters relating to an individual employment agreement or a proposed individual employment agreement or an individual employee's terms and conditions of employment or an individual employee's proposed terms and conditions of employment:"—one more—"[(f)] to seek compliance with relevant requirements in any case where non-compliance is detected."Section 20(3) of that Employment Relations Act in regard to unions business includes "(a) to discuss union business with union members: (b) to seek to recruit employees as union members: (c) to provide information on the union and union membership to any employee on the premises."So what we've got—and I know that was extensive so I have on the basis of that two more questions for the Minister. Why is this definition not appropriate for allowing paid time for union activities? What specific union activities are not included in that comprehensive definition that I just read out from the Employment Relations Act 2000? What other union activities should businesses have to provide paid time for? Where is the insertion back of this clause—where is it going? By sending the letter is the Minister suggesting or is the Government suggesting that unions are in breach of the Employment Relations Act by undertaking union activity in a workplace where it is not currently permitted? Or put another way by preferring to not impact on existing practices is the Government not enforcing the current legislation as it stands? I would like those questions answered by the Minister. I think it was incredibly and thoroughly confusing to sit there on the Education and Workforce Committee and have an out-in-out clause and quite frankly a really thoroughly unacceptable exchange between the Minister the ministry and our select committee and I seek those answers. Thank you Madam Chair."