Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:652;Page:1619] 
4.  
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Does she have confidence in the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections; if not why not? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 As the member will be aware I have asked the State Services Commissioner to report to me on the very serious issues raised by the recent report of the Office of the Auditor-General in relation to the probation service. Until I have received the commissioner’s report it is inappropriate for me to comment on my confidence or otherwise in the chief executive. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Would the Minister agree that her level of confidence in the Department of Corrections is fundamental in terms of the public having trust in the department to do its job? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I would expect that the public would want to know that I have confidence in the department. 
Todd McClay 
: Has the Minister received any other reports that have given her cause for concern? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Yes. Under Mr Goff’s cavalier watch just last year it was acceptable for management to fly a prisoner—a senior gang leader—from Christchurch to Wellington to attend a meeting of the prison service’s management team. Under my watch gangs are not going to be consulted on the running of prisons. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: What is the Minister’s response to Mr Matthews’ saying to the Law and Order Committee this morning that he could not rule out legal action if he loses his job? If he is forced down that path would not a strong contributing factor in any action for constructive dismissal be her bagging and gagging of him prior to the release of the State Services Commission report which she herself requested? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: That member has made a lot of outrageous allegations both in this House and outside it. Not once has he been able to actually verify any of them. I do not take anything from what he has said today about what was said in the select committee. I do not believe a word of him. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Can I seek directions. Is the member seeking a supplementary question or a point of order? 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: First a point of order. I seek leave to table a document and before you ask Mr Speaker it is a media report from the New Zealand Press Association that states: “Mr Matthews when asked”— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat. We do not need to have an entire press release read out. Leave is sought to table a press release. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Does the Minister agree with Mr Matthews’ statement today that employers have a responsibility to be good employers and should not prejudge employees; if so given her day-to-day working relationship with Mr Matthews how does that fit with her reckless comments about him which must have an influence on his employer the State Services Commission in preparing the report she requested and thereby places at risk large sums of taxpayers’ money in a potential constructive dismissal case which Mr Matthews told the select committee today he has not ruled out? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I have not made reckless statements. In fact I say to that member that the constant repetition of untruths does not make them true. That member should remember that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The Hon Clayton Cosgrove. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Why is that member always so angry? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will ask his question—if his own colleagues are quiet enough to let him do so. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I have a supplementary question for the angry member. Does the Minister— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member knows he cannot do that when asking a supplementary question. In fact much of the noise as he sought to ask his question was coming from his own colleagues. Now that the House is silent I invite him to ask his question. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: My colleagues were happy though I think. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will just get on with asking his question if he is capable of it. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I am capable of it. Does the Minister agree with the  
New Zealand Herald  
that her “blunt criticism of the department and her refusal to back Mr Matthews means their working relationship is at an end and will give his employer the State Services Commission little choice but to remove him.”? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: What I do agree with is that the report from the Auditor-General’s office is extremely important and my first requirement is the public safety of this country. I am not going to put up with that sort of behaviour from that member who comes down here makes up stories then repeats them as though they were true. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I take grave exception to that comment. I made up nothing in that question. It was a direct quote from the  
New Zealand Herald 
. The second point I would ask you to rule on is that I did not ask the member whether she agreed with anything else; I asked her whether she agreed with the definitive comment in the  
New Zealand Herald 
 that I had quoted. It was a precise question. I did not ask her whether she agreed with anybody else but whether she agreed with the  
New Zealand Herald 
. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has been here for many years and knows he cannot ask for a precise answer—a yes or no answer. That has been ruled by many Speakers. He cannot expect the Minister to give exactly the answer he wants. It was my view that the Minister did answer the question the member had asked. He will recollect that I have been very fair in enabling him to ask further questions where I have felt that the Minister has not answered the question asked but today he has been putting assertions into questions. In fact Speakers’ rulings point out that members cannot do that. If he expects a straight answer from a Minister he cannot put that kind of assertion into questions. He sought an opinion and he got an opinion and that is the end of the matter. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I say to Dr Michael Cullen that that is the end of the matter. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I trust this is a different point of order. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I want to pick up a particular word you used in your ruling Mr Speaker. You said you were satisfied that the Minister had answered the question. I think this is the problem we are getting ourselves into. You have to be satisfied only that the Minister addressed the question. I think it would be safer ground if we were to revert to a very clear statement that that is what you are ruling on because once you are in the business of trying to determine whether a Minister has answered the question then the burden upon you of detail in terms of what the Minister has said or not said becomes actually in my view impossible for the Speaker to assume. I think the previous rulings in that respect are a safer haven for you to occupy in this regard. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I take note of the point the member has made. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Without wishing to waste your time I did ask you to rule on another point which was that the Minister had accused me of telling untruths in that question when I actually had quoted from the  
New Zealand Herald  
newspaper and asked her whether she agreed with it. I am not asking for a ruling on the point Dr Cullen raised. She accused me effectively of lying when I quoted from the  
New Zealand Herald 
 and I ask you to take some action on that. It is unparliamentary and I take offence. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: If the Minister accused the member of lying I would ask her to withdraw and apologise for that. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Could I just clarify whether the member is taking offence at my saying he has lied outside this House or is it just at my saying he lied in this House? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members cannot accuse other members of lying anywhere. It is simply unacceptable to accuse other members of lying. If the member did accuse the member of lying I would ask her to withdraw and apologise for that. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I accused the member of telling untruths. That is a truthful statement. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think this is starting to play with words. If the member accused the honourable member of telling untruths I would ask her to withdraw and apologise for that. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: In which case I withdraw and apologise. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. 
David Garrett 
: What steps if any has she taken to ascertain the competence or otherwise of the senior managers reporting to Mr Barry Matthews and does each of those senior managers enjoy her confidence? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: As the member will be aware the State Services Commissioner is undertaking a review of the parole situation and probation but for the member’s information I can tell him that the Department of Corrections is already undertaking a review of how it has been operating and how it can best serve the public. So those issues are being dealt with.