Bates Carl; Willis NicolaCARL BATES (National—Whanganui): Thank you Mr Chair. I feel like I've come late to the party in relation to this particular piece of legislation. I'm not a member of the esteemed Finance and Expenditure Committee. However I am a chartered accountant and have a particular interest in the management and oversight of companies. So I have several questions I'd like to ask in relation to this bill that I haven't already had the opportunity to ask and I have a few more I'll ask hopefully later in the evening.My first concern sits around this context that has been touched on already but I really want to get certainty particularly for my constituents. Because in the wonderful Whanganui electorate we have a large South African population. In fact yesterday I was in Stratford buying some droëwors from a great butcher there and it reminds me of the concern that particularly South Africans have when you start thinking and talking about political influence which is important to this bill when it comes to the Guardians fund not having political influence over the companies that they make—Arena Williams: Point of order Mr Chair. Thank you Mr Chair. Members on this side of the Chamber gave the member a minute and a half to ask the Minister a question which was relevant to this bill and the question is in fact repetitive. If you look to Standing Order 112(2) this is something which has been asked now by three members on the other side of the Chamber and would be something which would warrant you terminating the member's speech now that it has been raised a third time.Stuart Smith: Speaking to the point of order. Well thank you Mr Chair but as the Chair well knows that is a decision and a judgment for the Chair alone. It's not for members on either side of the Chamber to make that judgment call. So I put that that point of order is completely out of order.David MacLeod: Mr Chair speaking to the point of order. I also think it is upon us to think that there are many other questions that we wish to ask. So whether it was repetitive in that particular case there are other unanswered questions as well.CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): OK OK. OK what I will ask members to do is to relate it specifically to the bill. I think the contribution just before this contribution did relate specifically to—and I was listening to it—59(1)(b) I think and that was quite helpful. So if members do have questions if you could relate it specifically to the bill that would be very helpful. I'll allow Carl Bates to continue. So relating it directly to the bill.CARL BATES: Thank you Mr Chair and I take the point about related to the bill. I'm speaking to section 64(2) of the Act.Arena Williams: We know! A few of your colleagues have raised it already. We know.CARL BATES: If you give me an opportunity to ask my question I might be able to get around to actually asking my question. It surprises me—and Mr Chair hopefully you'll indulge me as I speak about the bill—that my colleagues on the other side of the Chamber when I'm speaking about an immigration matter related to the bill and the concerns of our fellow New Zealanders who have come here from around the world and the mental wellbeing they bring to this country and my colleagues across the Chamber aren't allowing me the opportunity to ask a question that would be of significant concern to all South Africans living in electorates should they be MPs for an electorate. But if they're not Mr Chair I'd like to come back—Hon Dr Deborah Russell: Mr Chair we've just been through this just a few moments ago. Whether or not—yeah.CARL BATES: Well if you don't interrupt me Mr Chair I'll get to my question.CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): Just for my clarification you were talking about 6 and—CARL BATES: So I'm referring to the provisions as provided in section 64(2) of the Act related to political influence which the bill is related to. In ensuring that we don't allow the Guardians fund to get into a position where we have entities invested in that become majority-owned and ultimately have through—whether it be directly through the Act or through the influence of politicians and we have strong politicians as we're seeing here in the House this evening who have opinions that that come across.I want to have certainty for my constituents that the Minister assures this committee that there won't be political influence in any form enabled through this bill being enacted through this House. That's the first question Mr Chair. I said I had two questions and I'm coming to the second part of my question now in relation to the different ways. So I'm now speaking about section 59(1).Arena Williams: Yep! No we've had that one too.CARL BATES: I think it's important to point out the section because while my colleagues on this side of the Chamber are following me clearly my colleagues on the other side of the Chamber are finding it difficult to follow.So section 59(1) which speaks to the different types of ways the Guardians fund can take interests in companies. I wanted—and I'm probably not going to get to be able to ask my question given the interruptions I've had so far this evening but what I wanted to understand is from the Minister the different types of ownerships. Now whether we're speaking about majority control just in the form of shares; whether we're speaking about majority ownership in the form of other types of instruments that could be converted into shares; debenture bond allocation; as well as bringing in different classes of shares to sort of get around—Mr Chair can I finish that—CHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono): The member's time has expired.Hon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance): Mr Chair the member is asking about how the bill relates to section 64 of the Act which it amends. And there is actually an important point here around ministerial directions which I haven't covered as yet because there is a clear legal separation from the core Crown to that of autonomous Crown entities in respect of the fund. And while I've at length commented on the fact that the Minister can't specifically direct the New Zealand Superannuation Fund the Minister can give non-binding directions to the Guardians regarding the Government's expectations as to the fund's performance including as to risk and return.And the member asks about where the line lies in terms of politicisation and what that looks like. And I think it is important to look at where that section has been operable. I think back to the honourable Bill English who as finance Minister directed the super fund to conduct a higher level of investment in New Zealand markets. And in that case he directed the super fund to have regard to increased funding within New Zealand but he didn't—because he lawfully couldn't—direct the entity to give effect to the policy. And there is a subtle difference there that is quite important. And so in that case the Guardians' obligations under section 58 remain unchanged.So to the question on the ministerial directions; those same requirements remain in the Act unchanged by the bill before us. What the bill focuses on importantly in terms of amending obligations as set out in section 59 is about the status of those entities in which the fund invests. Because as I commented on earlier it is important that no one be under the impression that an entity simply because the super fund has a controlling entity in it in some way becomes a Crown entity subsidiary or a Crown entity and therefore would be treated with the obligations rights and responsibilities of a Crown entity. And you see at section 59 that outlined clearly—that the Official Information Act the Ombudsman Act do not apply and that The Guardians' interests in an entity that is formed or controlled by the Guardians for the purpose of holding facilitating or managing the investments of the Fund are Fund investments and part of the Fund." And so that distinction is important.And I would simply also note in relation to those ministerial directions that while the Minister cannot direct in a way that requires the fund to do one thing or another it would be interesting of course to observe—that I would find it hard to imagine there isn't a member in this House who would like to see the super fund investing more in New Zealand infrastructure. That currently forms a very small portion of the fund's overall investment portfolio. And I'm sure others would join me in being hopeful that the changes we are making tonight would enable the super fund to make more investments in New Zealand infrastructure to grow and build this great country."