Sowry Roger: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Sowry Roger: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Sitting date: 15 October 2003. Volume:612;Page:9165. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
3.  
Hon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader—National) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: Does he stand by his statement on the introduction of the Land Transport Management Bill that it “represents the biggest single change to land transport in New Zealand since the current system was introduced in the late 1980s.”; if so why? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yes. The bill broadens the focus of the land transport management system to include land transport as a whole introduces long-term planning and enables new funding tools in the form of tolling and public-private partnerships. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: If the bill is so good why in his opinion does the New Zealand Automobile Association believe that the Land Transport Management Bill has “an overall effect that will be bad news for the majority of New Zealanders”? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Because it is clear to me it does not understand the bill. 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: How has the bill addressed issues raised by submitters? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The select committee has simplified the consultation requirements for organisations affected by the bill. It has included efficiency in the approval process for funding land transport activities and it has introduced more flexibility into tolling and public-private partnership provisions including an early conditional approval process for such schemes. 
Peter Brown 
: Does the Minister not accept that the single largest issue facing land transport is funding and that this bill will not address it either by quantity time-frame or fairness; if he does accept that will he tell us how exactly he will address those three areas? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes I acknowledge that. That is a good point. The issue is about funding. This bill is the start of making some improvements. It allows for tolling and public-private partnerships but this is only the start of the work. The Government is doing a lot of work with the Auckland region and there will be announcements about that later in December. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the legislation reported back to the House this week signal the end of the changes to the land transport system in New Zealand or does the Minister have plans for further legislation that might address some of the ideas and concerns expressed by submitters to the select committee on the Land Transport Management Bill? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes. There are other changes potentially in the wind. Of course this will depend on the outcome of the work that has been done between the Government and the Auckland region which should apply to the rest of the country. We are looking at debt financing and other such matters and at other aspects relating to tolling. There are some social issues here that have to be addressed. So all those things need to be taken into account. But if an agreed programme is announced in December as we plan there are likely to be further changes that need to be introduced next year. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: Does the Minister stand by the answer he gave regarding this bill yesterday—when he denied that at any time earlier this year he had said that this transport bill is the cost of having the Green Party control transport issues because it was the price that Labour had to pay in order to get the Green Party to support a 4c increase in the price of petrol—given the fact that Business New Zealand has sent us an email today saying that is exactly what he told it earlier this year? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The reality is that the bill has been brought forward to this House under MMP arrangements with primarily the support of the Green Party and I thank it for that work. But it is very interesting that a number of parties in this House want more money spent on roading but will not support increasing 
the petrol tax to implement that. It is about time they start to work out that that is voodoo economics. One cannot spend more and tax less. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister gave an interesting answer in which he claimed that other parties are supporting voodoo economics. The question I actually asked him was whether it was correct as he told business groups earlier this year that this bill is the cost of having the Green Party control transport. That is the issue that he has not answered. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: This bill is not the cost of anything. This bill is a major step forward for the land transport system in New Zealand and it has been worked through with the Green Party as part of MMP arrangements and I thank the Green Party for its support for that. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Can the Minister confirm that more funding than ever before is now available for land transport and that the $3 million allocated to walking and cycling for example is likely to do far more to free up congested roads—by encouraging people to leave their cars at home rather than use them for short trips—than it would if it were spent on buying about half a kilometre of motorway? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes to both those questions. Firstly there is more money available now for road funding because of the support from the Green Party for increasing the tax on fuel which every other Opposition party voted against. Secondly it is important to know that in New Zealand about 30 percent of travel by car is for less than 2 kilometres and the more we can do in getting people out of their cars and into walking and cycling the better as it will help immensely with the congestion problems in New Zealand. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Given that the Minister thinks the bill is a major step forward in addressing New Zealand’s transport infrastructure is he concerned that Business New Zealand calls the bill “a red light for road users”; the Employers and Manufacturers Association says the bill is “almost hopeless”; the Auckland City Council says the bill is “only half the toolbox”; the Automobile Association says the bill will have the “overall effect of being bad news for the majority of New Zealanders”; and the Road Transport Forum says the bill is “designed to increase the extent to which the Government can fleece road users”—if he is not concerned about all those groups’ unanimous opposition to the bill then what is concerning him? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: With respect many of those groups had that same attitude as the bill went to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee. The committee worked incredibly hard on it and made some very good changes and as a result this bill is a better product. I also note there has been a lot of support from many of the regional mayors around the country and I thank them for that. This is a forward-looking bill not a backward-looking bill. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: As part of the cosy arrangement that the Minister has managed to effect with the Green Party can he promise the Green Party cyclists a following wind; and more particularly why does he talk about voodoo economics when less than $1 out of every $2 that is collected for the purpose of construction maintenance and road safety goes towards that purpose and what has he done about that? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Firstly everybody likes a following wind but secondly the important point that the member maybe overlooks is the fact that that system of funding in New Zealand has been in place for a long time and was not changed when that member was the Treasurer of this country. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I seek to table the 1998 Budget where we began to implement a change. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Has the Minister seen any comments made by former British Conservative Ministers whose Governments attempted to motorway their way out of congestion about the lessons they learnt from this? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is very very wide of the original question. The Minister can comment very briefly. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Very briefly I have seen the comments made by a former Conservative transport Minister from England who said that many transport Ministers around the world were often afflicted with “big projectitis” rather than promoting other forms and modes a multimodal approach including walking and cycling to help with the problems of congestion in major cities like London. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Is he concerned that the Automobile Association has also said of the bill that it “opens the way for more petrol taxes to be diverted from roading”; if so will he support a cap on the amount of money that can be spent from the National Land Transport Fund on non-roading projects? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: No. The member still does not get it. The reality is that if we are going to fix New Zealand’s transport problems we have to look across all modes. Simply trying to motorway our way out of the problem is not going to work. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Noting that the Minister said earlier in the House that it was “clear to me [that the AA] does not understand the bill.” was that why he rang the association after it had issued a statement criticising the Government to berate the association and threaten it if it was ever to do that again? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: No. I am a very straightforward person and I made that call because of that. 
Hon Richard Prebble 
: I seek the leave of the House to table a document that establishes that the Minister said this bill is the cost of the Greens’ control over transport. It is an email to me from Business New Zealand saying: “He has certainly said it to us in meetings we have had with him.” 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.