Upston LouiseHon LOUISE UPSTON (National—Taupō): I'm pleased to rise to take a call in this debate. As you said it is an emotionally charged issue as it should be because what is at the heart of this legislation is the protection of our most vulnerable children. That's what this change is about. I want to be clear about what it's not about. This is not about a Government being anti-Māori; it is not about a Government being anti-Treaty.So when the legislation was originally introduced the intention always was that the child's interests come first. I wouldn't have thought there would be anyone in this House who doesn't want to see the reduction of harm against our most vulnerable children right? So we want to see more children protected from harm. Unfortunately we have seen examples—as a constituent MP of 16 years I have heard constituents who have come to me with exactly this issue—exactly this issue. So I'm not going to stand here and say that Governments of either side have got it right in terms of protecting children from abuse. The list that the Minister read before was a blot on all of us.Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Before 7AA existed.Hon LOUISE UPSTON: No no it's still happening today. It is still happening today. And anyone in this House who denies that we are not still harming children is in La-La Land absolute La-La Land. Get real in terms of what the focus of this legislation is about. And although we would like to see that we have not had decisions where children have been removed from homes—Hon Willow-Jean Prime: You haven't. That's what your regulatory impact statement said when you made your Cabinet decision.Hon LOUISE UPSTON: No. You are completely distorting what this debate is about. It's really unfortunate that the members opposite aren't listening to what the heart of this debate is about.Hon Willow-Jean Prime: Evidence.Hon Peeni Henare: Evidence.Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Absolutely. And the evidence is when a child is removed against their best interests—Hon Willow-Jean Prime: There is no empirical evidence—Hon LOUISE UPSTON: I'm sorry but I've dealt with cases as an electorate MP of constituents when exactly this has happened. So you might want to deny it. I know it would be really nice to deny it doesn't happen but it does. It is happening. So I'm just so disappointed that the Opposition don't want to listen to the reality of the primacy of what this bill is doing. So when the accusation came before about ideology—and unfortunately I think what we're hearing from the other side because of their lack of willingness to engage is about ideology—Hon Willow-Jean Prime: You haven't read the evidence.Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Of course I have—of course I have. I've worked with this legislation for years. I'm the Minister that's changing the oversight to Orangi Tamariki to make sure it delivers better than it is today. How do we do that? How do we do that? We do that by ensuring the best support is available and the decisions are made in the best interests of the child. [Interruption] That should and must always come first. We have to use every tool available to us and unfortunately—ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O'Connor): Ah look members I've just stopped the clock at the moment. I just wonder whether the Minister engaging across some very loud interjections—this is a very important debate with people who want to hear the arguments so interjections: short sharp and relevant not a continual barrage. So please members.Hon LOUISE UPSTON: Thank you Mr Speaker. It's actually quite embarrassing because I think those people who want to listen to this debate would be embarrassed about what's happening in terms of the barracking across the House. Because what members opposite aren't thinking about is it might be a small number of children that are affected by this but actually for them it has had significant impacts on their life their future and their opportunities. Those are the children we should be thinking about in this particular legislation. So look in many cases it works well. We need more Māori organisations to partner with the Government to do fantastic work on the ground. But actually in some cases the application of the law has shown that this change is required to ensure that we protect the most vulnerable children in this country. Unfortunately the Opposition wants to turn it into a debate that it's not.