Carter David: Minimum Wage Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
Carter David: Minimum Wage Amendment Bill — Third Reading 
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Hon DAVID CARTER (NZ National) 
: 
 This is an interesting bill because it will pass through the House with support from the other de facto coalition grouping here in this Parliament which sometimes stands up and decides it wants— 
Dail Jones 
: New Zealand First too. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Oh New Zealand First is pointing out that it supports the bill as well. Is that not amazing? I really thought New Zealand First might have done better than that. This bill is another case of the Greens arguing as they did about hairdressers and panel beaters being paid “shocking wages” to quote Sue Bradford and of not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good headline. 
It is interesting that National supported this bill going to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee where we said we should look to see whether there was any substance to the sorts of horror stories about trainees being paid “shocking wages” and where there was also the opportunity to find out before the select committee what the impact of the legislation would really be both on the interface with welfare and on the fiscal cost to the overall Budget. Now that the bill has come back from the select committee National is in the position where it is not prepared to support it because significantly all the sorts of stories that were said to exist around this legislation simply evaporated when the select committee examined it. 
There were no cases presented of people being exploited by being paid “shocking wages” or no wages as Sue Bradford alleged and furthermore the Department of Labour officials were unable to give any indication at all as to the overall effects of passing this legislation. I say that given the Government’s talk about the need to facilitate businesses’ ability to do business one would have thought it would make some attempt to find out whether legislation like this would make it easier or harder to do business. It is of concern to me that today we find out yet again that we are being asked to support legislation proposed by the Government and supported by the Greens—and now by New Zealand First—to solve a problem that does not exist. 
That is the problem we have when people like Mr Robson who is trying to interject and who has never worked in the real world are members of the Government. Union delegates teachers—the highly unionised profession of teaching—and those types of people come into Parliament and become very concerned about whether there is a problem—[ 
Interruption 
] Well New Zealand First at this stage is supporting the bill but I certainly hope that after it listens to the good arguments being advanced here it will change its mind. This is a case where people who are unfamiliar with the real world— 
David Benson-Pope 
: There are no good arguments so far. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Well we will have to go over them again. It takes a long time to get through to David Benson-Pope but I will attempt to do so. 
I will give the member one good argument. What economic analysis was presented to the select committee as to the effect of this legislation on the employment chances of young New Zealanders? I will give David Benson-Pope the answer before he picks up the phone because now he is totally embarrassed. The Leader of the House has turned round to him and told him to stop interjecting because he is not helping the cause. The answer for the benefit of David Benson-Pope is that no analysis was done. 
Only in the last couple of weeks have we had the superb discussion document produced by a colleague of ours Katherine Rich. 
Simon Power 
: A fine document. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: It is one of the best pieces of work to have come out of an Opposition in decades. That paper talks about the very difficult interface of getting young New Zealanders out of welfare dependency. It makes the point strongly that the big step is to get the young people without skills into their first job. Sue Bradford is nodding her head now; she agrees with that. The big challenge that parliamentarians on both sides of the fence face is to try to get people out of the comfort zone where the unemployment benefit looks like an attractive option and to get them into a job. 
I tell Sue Bradford that invariably those people have negligible skills. If they can get into a job and work with an employer who is prepared to help them to acquire skills they become very very employable people who can make a contribution. From my point of view they then become people who will not get stranded in welfare dependency. Sue Bradford is nodding her head saying that that sounds pretty good. So why should we enact legislation that will make that just that much harder? The Government is now insisting that those young people—[ 
Interruption 
] Michael Cullen is to make another contribution. He took about 1 minute to get his last contribution out but he now wants to do it— 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: If you pay people it’s much harder to employ them is it not? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: If you pay people it is much harder to employ them? 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: That’s right; that’s National’s policy. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Well it is true. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Oh it’s true? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Let me explain that; the trouble with academics who have never been in the real world is that they do not understand that. 
In a situation where an employer could take on a young New Zealander and that person requires a lot of training that employer will look at this legislation and say if he or she takes that person on that employer will have to pay the minimum wage. Therefore that person will not get the job because the employer is better advised to employ somebody who already has some training. I tell Dr Cullen that that young person who would have had the opportunity of getting out of the welfare trap will not have that opportunity and— 
Heather Roy 
: They get stuck. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: They get stuck in the welfare trap. Now that suits the Labour Party because it works on the very selfish attitude that someone who is confined to welfare and stuck in it will vote for Labour. That is about how cynical David Benson-Pope and Michael Cullen are about this issue. 
Heather Roy 
: People will vote for Labour because they are trapped in welfare. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: That says a lot about the future of this country. 
David Benson-Pope 
: You should be paid for the privilege of working. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: That is about the silliest comment that we have heard from David Benson-Pope. We should have a register of the stupid comments that David Benson-Pope makes. He says one should be paid for the privilege of working. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: No. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Well what is he saying? 
Hon Member 
: He is privileged to be here! 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: He is paid for the privilege of being here; people pay him $100000 to make inane comments like that here. So he is paid for the privilege of being here. But David Benson-Pope should go down to Dunedin and represent some of the people we are talking about who want to work but do not have skills. Here was a chance to give them skills and the Government is making sure that they do not get that chance. That is what this legislation does. 
I say to the Government in my closing minutes that it talks about wanting to support business and talks about wanting to lift the growth rate of New Zealand and today in question time Dr Cullen fudged an answer about New Zealand’s progress on growth and lifting ourselves up the ladder towards the top half of the OECD. That was very embarrassing for Dr Cullen because he knows that in actual fact we are going backwards. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: No. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: We are going backwards I tell Dr Cullen. If one is going from 4 percent to 2 percent one is going backwards. Even the Speaker knows that. 
David Benson-Pope 
: Getting the rail back is backwards? 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: Well I ask members! I reckon the Government members will ask that member to stop interjecting pretty quickly. But quite seriously I say that this legislation will do nothing to help the chances of those young New Zealanders. 
David Benson-Pope 
: Let’s talk about the euthanasia legislation. 
Hon DAVID CARTER 
: That is how that member wants to treat those young New Zealanders whom I came here to represent. I care about them even if David Benson-Pope does not.