Hartley Ann: General Debates 
Hartley Ann: General Debates 
[Volume:609;Page:6562] 
I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I draw to your attention that in other general debates and other speeches the senior Government whip has taken it upon himself to interject continuously. On other occasions I have let that run for a while but I do not intend to let that happen today. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: The member certainly has a point. I draw the member’s attention to that and ask for order. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: New Zealand and New Zealanders have been deceived by their own Prime Minister on an issue that matters to them most deeply because it is about the kind of country they live in. 
The Government has not decided to legislate to settle the issue of the title to the seabed and the foreshore. We know that because Ministers of the Crown have told us today. In fact what is happening is that the Minister of Maori Affairs has told us that the new committee that has been set up is the committee that will decide what is in the legislation. All the media headlines were wrong. I came to the House with the assumption that the Government had decided to settle the issue over title to the foreshore and the seabed by passing legislation that would state that the title lies with the Crown. The Prime Minister has said that it would be the intention of that legislation to prevent further Maori claims for customary title proceeding and to cut across the Court of Appeal. I had thought she meant what she said. I had thought the legislation would be appearing because that position was non-negotiable. I came to the House today to find out just what issues the Government did believe were negotiable with Maori. Was it fishing—the reopening of the fisheries settlement? Was it access? Was it compensation? Was it to do with minerals? Those are all things the Government has opened up to another never-ending process by its actions in the last few days. But I turned out to be wrong. It turns out that we can add to that list that the Government will be—[ 
Interruption 
] 
I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. It is your job to ensure that the Standing Orders are obeyed. The Standing Orders are quite clear about interjections. They must be rare witty and to the point. I raised this point with you at the start of my speech in relation to the senior Government whip. You have now tolerated Mr Mallard’s continuing and unbroken barrage of interjections and I believe it is your job to prevent that from happening. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I want to make two things clear. First of all the member pretended to be quoting from the Standing Orders when he was not. He was entirely inaccurate in what he said was in the Standing Orders and given he is the Leader of the Opposition when he quotes from the Standing Orders he should do so accurately. The other point is that although my interjections might have been cutting the member they were not constant. He has to be able to take it. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I remind members that general-debate speeches are 5-minute only and members should have a fair go. Also there have been interjections on both sides. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I warn people that there should be silence while points of order are being heard. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: That is exactly the point. There were three people interjecting at least while I was taking a point of order: the Leader of the Opposition Dr Lynda Scott and Dr Nick Smith. They all interjected. I think you know Madam Speaker that I have been tossed for that during recent debates and I ask for some consistency and behavioural standards to be applied to both Opposition members and Government members. 
David Benson-Pope 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. While I am flattered that the Leader of the Opposition objects to my comments which were not frequent I note that as this debate is characteristically a robust debate I would find it totally unacceptable given the interjections on our colleague Mr Barker that have already occurred if there were to be any expectation that the Government should sit quietly when provocative and inaccurate statements are being made to the House by the Leader of the Opposition. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order. The member’s points are debatable. I remind members again that these are 5-minute speeches only and members should have a fair go. I also remind members about speaking during points of order and when I am ruling on a point of order. The member did interject earlier. He was lucky and it will not be tolerated again. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I very specifically named three members who had breached the Standing Orders in a way that has according to recent Speakers’ rulings resulted in members being required at least to apologise. I request that you apply those standards to them. 
Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: I take the member’s point. I have already ruled on that matter. Speaking while points of order are being heard will not be tolerated. All members have now been warned. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: It turns out that the non-negotiable position of Helen Clark has now become negotiable. The Government’s legislation—which the Government stated it would certainly carry out—to settle the issue of title will now be negotiated between the Government and the Maori caucus in the committee that has been set up. The Maori caucus position is quite clear. Its members say that customary title exists and the Government stated the other day that it did not. Helen Clark has changed her mind in 2 days of pressure from the Maori caucus. She said that the Government would definitely introduce legislation to settle the issue of customary title but we are now being told by the Government that first no decision has been made to extinguish customary title. That is the first we have heard of it. 
It turns out that all those newspapers—the  
New Zealand Herald 
 the  
Dominion Post  
the Christchurch  
Press 
—and  
Morning Report 
 and the commercial radio stations were all wrong. The Government never stated that apparently. That is the first point. The Government said it never actually made that decision when it has been all over the news for 2 days. Secondly it has now decided to negotiate it. Here is the question asked by my colleague Stephen Franks: what is it that the Government plans to negotiate away? 
What rights that all New Zealanders have now will be negotiated away in a backroom in a committee set up by the Government to try to settle the problems it has created with its Maori caucus? Helen Clark the Prime Minister who means what she says and who has backed down in 2 days owes it to New Zealand to tell us what rights New Zealanders have that she will negotiate away. So much for the Prime Minister who means what she says. She said on Monday that she would settle the issue of customary title. We are told today that it will be negotiated by a committee of Government and Maori MPs.