5. Question No. 5—FinanceHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour) to the Minister of FinanceQuestion No. 5—Finance5. Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour) to the Minister of Finance: Is the reported statement from Treasury correct that the 6.5 percent or 7.5 percent savings that are being sought from Public Service agencies include both departmental and non-departmental spending; if so has she set any criteria beyond that for what spending is included or not included in the savings?Hon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance): Agencies have been asked to make savings from an eligible baseline which includes departmental and non-departmental spending with some adjustments and a range of exclusions. For example in the case of Health and Education those agencies have had non-departmental spending excluded from their baseline. In looking for savings agencies have been asked to focus on low-value programmes programmes that don't align with Government priorities and non-essential back-office functions including contractor and consultant spend. The member should note that not all proposals put forward by agencies will necessarily be progressed by Ministers. Ministers will exercise their judgment to ensure that we deliver on our goal to deliver better front-line services for New Zealanders.Hon Grant Robertson: Why has she chosen to include the Defence Force in the Public Service cuts after originally not doing so?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: We have chosen a broad range of agencies to take part in the exercise on the basis that we think everyone should be looking to see whether there are areas where they can do things more efficiently and better. In the case of Defence I would note that we have recognised they face critical cost pressures and as such they have been invited to bid for more funding in this Budget round.Hon Grant Robertson: Can she guarantee that the cuts to the Defence Force will not affect the wages of Defence Force staff?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Yes.Hon Grant Robertson: Well we're on a roll then. Will she rule out cutting non-departmental funding allocated to Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I can assure the member that non-departmental spending has been excluded from the baseline for that agency.Hon Grant Robertson: How can she reconcile the inclusion of Corrections in the departments to be cut with the commitment in the coalition agreement with ACT to increase its funding or is this going to be another example of David Seymour's political impotence?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: Both can be true—and they are. And this actually goes to the fundamental issue which is that we are asking the Department of Corrections to look at what resources may have become tied up in the back office so that we can move them into the front line in our prisons. It is the case that in fact we can both make savings in one area and increase funding in another. And I'd also point this out to the member and it's something I would urge members opposite to reflect on: you shouldn't simply conflate spending more money with getting results for the people we serve. This Government will not fall for that mistake.Stuart Smith: Why is the Minister embarking on the savings programme across the Public Service?Hon NICOLA WILLIS: The core Public Service headcount has grown by almost 30 percent since 2018 and Government spending is also expected to have increased by around 80 percent between 2017 and 2024. We have far too few results for New Zealanders to show for that huge increase and our Government is determined to restore respect for taxpayer money by stopping wasteful spending improving value for money and driving resources out of the back office and into front-line public services. Our savings programme in Budget 2024 is designed to find around $1.5 billion in savings per year which we'll use to deliver on our policy commitments and fund critical cost pressures.Hon David Seymour: Minister how did the Government manage to spend so much more money and yet get so much worse results and is that an example of the previous finance Minister's fiscal incontinence? [Interruption]SPEAKER: Wait on wait on. No need to go further. That last comment was greatly out of order as was the question.Hon Grant Robertson: Has the Minister spoken to the Hon Judith Collins in wake of her comments that she is going to need money for Defence" and what specifically in the Defence Force is she aiming to cut? Hon NICOLA WILLIS: I've had many conversations with the Minister of Defence who shares with me how ignored the Defence Force felt by the last Government. And I can assure New Zealanders that in Minister Collins the Defence Force has a very good advocate indeed."