Lole-Taylor Asenati: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — Second ReadingText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLole-Taylor Asenati: Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill — Second Reading[Sitting date: 18 March 2014. Volume:697;Page:16783. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]Le’aufa’amulia ASENATI LOLE-TAYLOR (NZ First):Welfare fraud is a serious issue. It does not recognise integrity which was actually mentioned by the Associate Minister for Social Development Chester Borrows in his speech earlier tonight. New Zealand First agrees with those who are voting in support of this bill the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First agrees with making accountable those who take money they are not entitled to. We need to ensure that by making them accountable they are held responsible for taking something that does not necessarily belong to them.New Zealand First has always been at the forefront of addressing welfare initiatives that will promote the well-being of our people. New Zealand First has a record of course of helping New Zealanders regardless of their race the colour of their skin the language they speak or their age. That is right—that is New Zealand First especially with regards to the SuperGold card and free healthcare for under-6-year-olds. It is no secret that New Zealand First backed KiwiSaver. We did indeed. It is no secret that New Zealand First put more policemen in the police force and more funding towards Māori wardens.Earlier today the Minister said that he was offended by those who raised tax avoidance or tax evasion in their minority report. We did not put forward a minority report but we do have a very strong view in this area. The Minister ought to accept that there is more money owing on tax evasion or tax avoidance and his Government should do something about it. Five billion dollars is a lot of money as a result of that. Interestingly enough we have been waiting for the Government to get on with the job of sorting out the loan sharks. These are the people who have been preying on our vulnerable families and leading them into further debt.This bill the Social Security (Fraud Measures and Debt Recovery) Amendment Bill must deliver for those who are abusing the system. We agree that the Government must be responsible with taxpayers’ money. Why should we not? The Government has a responsibility to ensure that the funding allocated to those who need it the most is administered properly. The welfare system is a safety net for those who need it the most. It is supposed to be a safety net. We totally agree with this.Sadly it is true that some dishonest people are treating welfare like a fishing net and they are taking more than they are entitled to. It is vital that New Zealand welfare reaches the people who actually need it instead of the criminals or the greedy partners who would continue to take what they are not entitled to and in many cases use the funds to feed their drug addiction or gambling problem. But this is always easier said than done. After all Minister Collins could not even confirm whether she should be taking up sign language if she was not able to communicate in the Chinese language to confirm who paid for the dinner in China.Let us be clear here. We want to ensure that the intention of this bill will be implemented appropriately and with suitable mechanisms in place to ensure that it is carried out properly. This bill aims to make criminally liable the spouses or partners of those committing benefit fraud. “Liable” is actually the critical word here. We accept that. We believe that that is fair. It will lead to a fine not exceeding $5000 or imprisonment not exceeding 12 months. Ordinary Kiwis out there would like to see that the penalties contained in this bill are sufficient to deter potential fraudsters from committing benefit fraud. Ordinary Kiwis out there would like justice to be done and everyone in this House is responsible for passing legislation that delivers justice for all not just for those on that side of the House.This bill has identified important areas in current legislation that need strengthening. Relationship fraud is one of those areas. When relationship fraud is involved in more than half of the total debts from welfare fraud it is clear that something needs to be done. The report from the Social Services Committee stated that the amendments are designed “to make clearer the criteria for liability on the part of a beneficiary’s spouse or partner who knowingly or otherwise benefits from an amount obtained by fraud.”The select committee gave this bill serious consideration around its implementation and definitions. The report continues: “To be liable the spouse or partner must know or be ‘reckless’ as to whether the amount obtained is in excess of what the beneficiary is entitled to and that it is being fraudulently obtained. The bill as introduced is unclear about whether the spouse or partner would also have to know the exact amount involved or the precise way in which it was obtained. The amendments would make it clear that the spouse or partner would not be required to know the exact amount obtained by fraud nor the precise way the beneficiary obtained it.”There are frauds and more frauds and many frauds and uncontrollable frauds. As the Minister himself said it takes two to tango and we acknowledge that the bill is providing a way to share accountability among both parties involved in a relationship who intentionally defraud the system. This bill will strengthen the current legislation which often unfairly punishes just one person. If fairness is expected when the Government is assisting people according to their needs then it is only reasonable to expect fairness from people when their situation or their circumstances change and improve.We cannot afford to allow people to exploit the system. There has been too much of that lately in recent weeks in this House by many of those on that side of the House. But in saying all this it is important to point out again that relationships are never simple and straightforward particularly for people in broken homes. The bill must be sensitive to this. The changes must not disadvantage women in violent relationships. I am pleased that the Hon Chester Borrows gave an assurance on this during the bill’s first reading. If only the rest of his team and his colleagues would do the same.The select committee’s reported stated in terms of amendments to the debt recovery provisions: “We believe that this would ensure that the amendment did not undermine the general public law principle that decision-makers must take all relevant considerations into account. It would also alleviate any concerns about the legislation breaching New Zealand’s international human rights obligations by ensuring that matters pertaining to such rights could be taken into account where necessary.”The Government has stated that it is making significant savings by preventing welfare fraud. Yes savings reached $109 million in the 2012-13 year. This is a welcome result especially when debts owed to the Ministry of Social Development stand at over $120 million. However we must always be mindful of being overzealous in searching for savings because it will almost undoubtedly come at the price of helping someone in genuine need.We must acknowledge the idea that most New Zealanders would not cheat the system if they felt like they did not need to. The simple fact is that desperation often pushes people to behave in this way. To address this we have to acknowledge the deeper social problems that rely on the welfare system and rely on welfare fraud. There are no jobs and many families struggling on low incomes are battling against the high cost of living. Many of those who would be first-home buyers are actually struggling to save the 20 percent deposit on a home or to pay for their children’s schools and uniforms. We have to be sure that targeting the small number of people intentionally taking advantage of our welfare system does not have a wider negative impact on those who are in genuine need. It will be a difficult balancing act. However the overall intention of the bill ought to be supported and New Zealand First will support the bill in its second reading. Thank you.