Brownlee GerryHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National—Ilam): Can I acknowledge the speech from Agnes Loheni and the very clever way I think in which she outlined an argument. Can I also acknowledge Andrew Little on the other hand for the way in which he went through the way that he got to his position. Although I was very young at the time I do remember the debates of 1977 and particularly the fervour in those debates. I also remember that they occurred largely because there was a lot of carnage from people effectively dying or being maimed irreparably in the seeking of effectively backstreet abortions. So while I don't support abortion I think that there are a number of things that we have to look at in this debate that give respect to life but also recognise that there will be circumstances where people—women—will find themselves faced with that choice.When she spoke earlier the Greens speaker whose name sorry immediately—Hon Members: Jan Logie.Hon GERRY BROWNLEE: Jan. When Jan Logie spoke earlier she spoke about the social opprobrium that was often associated with women who had abortions. Well equally I think there has been far too much social opprobrium for women who have carried out or gone full term as used to be the term unmarried mothers". I would like to make it clear that there would be no Hansard record in this House where I've ever had anything other than respectful comments for women who have brought up their children on their own. In that I'm trying to say that perhaps if there was a better attitude toward the young women generally who find themselves pregnant who are faced with that dilemma and that attitude was one of full support then perhaps we wouldn't be in a situation where we're looking at a bill like this.The other call that's been made is about fairness—about removing it from the Crimes Act. Well this bill does a lot more than just remove abortion from the Crimes Act. I don't think it is reasonable to class people who've had an abortion as potentially being criminals who have a defence against the crime. That is what the current Act does. But I do have concerns about the extremely liberal nature of this particular bill.Those concerns go for example to the possibility of gender selection which for a lot of cultures in New Zealand will be a reasonable thing to do. It goes to the concerns about genetic selection which for a lot of people will be something that they're keen to investigate. And then there is the issue of there being virtually no question at all up to the 20-week mark and then a strong suggestion from the Minister that the regime beyond that point won't present any particular difficulty either. I think the concepts that have just been outlined by Agnes Loheni in her speech about the respect for life whether it is at any point on the human spectrum from conception to death is something that we should not take lightly. We should not just put aside and should not sort of categorise as being valuable at one point and less valuable in another.Throughout all my years in this House I have always voted on the side of the conservative approach to these types of bills. What I would like to see is a select committee take this bill—given I think I know where it's all heading—and do the work that's necessary to put it into a shape that might deal with some of those problems that I outlined earlier. I don't think this bill should go to the select committee almost unchallenged as could have been deduced from some of the earlier speeches in this debate this afternoon.So I am open to what the select committee might come up with recognising that we do not want to go back to the pre-1977 days where just about in every town people could point to an arrangement that could be made but could never guarantee any safety in that arrangement. But I think this liberalisation here does not protect enough against the things that would be simply bad for humanity: genetic selection gender selection and then a much lessening value of almost full-term pregnancy.So I will not be voting for this bill this evening but as I say I hope the select committee do a good job in getting it into a position that makes it more reasonable law—does not criminalise people who have to make that dreadful decision. I think for most people it would be a pretty awful decision to have to make. With those comments I'm sorry I've taken a little longer than my five minutes."