Nash Stuart: Education Amendment Bill (No 2) — In CommitteeText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeNash Stuart: Education Amendment Bill (No 2) — In Committee[Sitting date: 02 December 2014. Volume:702;Page:1036. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]STUART NASH (Labour—Napier):I would also like to talk about clause 6—the governance of tertiary institutions—and I think Mr Cunliffe outlined it brilliantly. These institutions are not like corporates. These institutions are places of higher learning but also places where students come to grow to experience life and not just to study academically but to become productive members of society.I have a real concern that section 171 “Membership of council” says: “The council of an institution must have a total of 8 9 10 11 or 12 members” in total. I worked in a very senior position in a university and attended a number of the council meetings of this particular university. I can assure the members of this Committee that it was an incredibly diverse council but it was one that was incredibly empowered and did a fantastic job of the governance of the institution. In fact it is now the fastest-growing university and has been for about the last 8 or 9 years. That is not in spite of the council; it is because of the council.When I look at section 171B “Matters to be considered when appointing members” or actually throughout clause 6 there seems to be a number of clauses that tend to contradict each other. I cannot quite see the logic. Section 171B says—and I would not mind knowing what sort of weight this carries. It does not say “must” and it does not say “has to” but it says: “It is desirable …” which obviously means Parliament is sending a signal to those who are appointing members on to a university board. It is not compulsory but it is sending a very strong signal. But I would not mind knowing how strong the signal is.Section 171B says: “It is desirable that the council of an institution should so far as is reasonably practicable reflect—(a) the ethnic and socio-economic diversity of the communities served by the institution; and (b) the fact that approximately half the population of New Zealand is male and half the population is female.” Really? Do they have to state that in statute? I suppose what I am saying here is of course that is important—Hon Ruth Dyson: What if it changes?STUART NASH: Good question. But the thing that is most important is competency. The appointment of a council that reflects the community within which the university or the tertiary institution serves of course should be an admirable goal but it should not be a constitutional requirement.Then it does talk about competency. New section 171B(2)(b) states that the Minister or council “must appoint people who (in the Minister’s or council’s opinion)—(i) have relevant knowledge skills or experience;” but then it goes and talks about—and I am sure Mr Chairman that you will not like this—the limits on the number of occasions that people may be appointed as members of the council. So what it is actually saying here Mr Chair—The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Trevor Mallard): You are not bringing me into the debate.STUART NASH: No I am not at all. The Chair is a former Minister of Education and I am aware of that. The thing that concerns me about this is that what it is saying is that if there are competent members who have been around for a little more than one or two or three times then that is a very good reason to remove them. To me someone having been in a position for a set period of time is not a reason to remove them if they are highly competent because the last thing we want to see is competent members being replaced by those who lack a level of competency simply because they have been there a while.But then to reflect this we look at new section 171E which is entitled “Membership of more than one council” and which states: “A person who is a member of the council of an institution may be appointed a member of the council of another institution (whether or not they are institutions of the same kind).” So to me what this recognises is that there are actually not that many people in our country who have the skills who have the time who have the energy who have the competency—everything needed to sit on a university or a tertiary council.I know for a fact that most people who do sit on these councils do so out of a sense of community service. I think that the chair of a university council gets paid something like—I do not know—$23000 $24000 or $25000 compared with the chair of a major corporate who may get $150000 or $200000. The budgets controlled by these councils are substantial. In fact I could be wrong but I believe that the University of Auckland is the largest employer in Auckland City and I also believe that Auckland University of Technology is the second-largest employer in Auckland City. So if you combine those in the tertiary education sector together you have a massively powerful organisation and yet what we are doing is limiting the ability of certain members through section 171D. This bill places limits on the time length that people can stay on a council. That makes no sense to me.Let me reflect on the Auckland University of Technology board for example. As mentioned I was in a senior position at the Auckland University of Technology. A number of people on that board and certainly the Government-appointed ones also sat on corporate boards. So these were people who knew about governance. These were people who also got paid a substantial amount of money which reflected their high level of governance competency but they were sitting on that council because they believed in education and in a way I suppose it was their way of giving something back. Yet what we are doing here in a way is seeking to limit the time or the description—well actually anything that limits people from sitting on a tertiary education council I do not think is a particularly sound move and it is not a way to move forward.At this stage that is my contribution but it is something that does concern me greatly. Thank you very much.