Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Peters Winston: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:612;Page:8951] 
1. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: When she said yesterday that elective surgery waiting lists amount to 31785 how many had been removed from those waiting lists without treatment under her administration and does she think that is satisfactory? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister) 
: 
 None of the 31785 have been removed without treatment. They have actually been given certainty of treatment within 6 months. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Are we to believe that answer given that the Canterbury District Health Board chairman Syd Bradley confirmed that prior to the instructions he and his board had received there were 24391 people on their waiting list but there were now 17191 and how does the Prime Minister square that statement with the statement she has just made to this House and in the common knowledge of everyone else here that tens of thousands have been put off waiting lists on the basis that their condition is not dire enough to require treatment now? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: Can I assist the member by answering as follows. Back in the 1997-98 Budget funding was provided so that boards could go through all of what was called the residual waiting list which had a figure of close to 90000 on it at the time so that everyone on that list could be assessed as to whether he or she went into a booking system with certainty of treatment within 6 months or went on to an active review list. 
Prior to this Government coming into office something over 50000 people were reviewed. The review process carried on to distinguish between those who would get certainty of treatment—that is the 31785 people—and those who would go into the active review category. I can advise the member that 32624 people are in the active review category and those people receive a clinical review at least every 6 months to see whether they have moved into the category for treatment. 
Dr Lynda Scott 
: Is it not true that in 1 year 25000 people were dumped from the waiting list because the actual points needed to get surgery had been raised; not on clinical grounds but because of financially sustainable thresholds and that that is why those patients have been dumped and can no longer get treatment under this Government? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: That would not be my understanding. My understanding would be that the process began from that 1997-98 decision and has been rolling on through and that some boards like Canterbury got to implement it considerably later than others. 
Heather Roy 
: Can the Prime Minister deny what usually well-informed sources tell me that since her Government came to power 78562 patients have been removed from the elective surgery waiting-list on to care and review or referred back to their GP and that that is because of the application of the financial component which takes precedence once the clinical component is established. 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: No I cannot confirm any such figure at all. What I have said in good faith is that a process began a number of years ago prior to this Government coming into office to distinguish between those who would get treatment within 6 months—and that is at an all-time high level right now—and those who would go on to active review. When their condition changes their general practitioner sends them back through and they get certainty of treatment. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: Why is it that the Prime Minister does not understand that the difference between the 1997-98 Budget and her policy is that as a result of the 1997-98 Budget 32000 extra elective surgery operations occurred; second under her policy as at 7 May letters were to be sent out to patients previously deemed to be in need of surgery to be told that they are not in circumstances dire enough to qualify for publicly funded operations which was the very directive that the Canterbury Health Board received; why is she trying now to disown the facts—again? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: There have always been clinical thresholds set to distinguish between those who are on active review and those who go into the booking system. That was the essence of the booking system that was introduced in the last term of the previous Government. 
Hon Annette King 
: In relation to the elective waiting list can she confirm that that change to the booking system in 1996 and the Budget of 1997-98 provided funding to implement the booking system which saw 50000 people reviewed under that system—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have said there will be no interjection while questions are being asked. When I have heard the question I will then determine whether it is in order. I want to hear the question. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is not beyond you to intervene when it is apparent that the Prime Minister has no responsibility for an area. Now someone on the front bench one of her Ministers is asking the Prime Minister about two financial years for whence the Prime Minister was in fact Leader of the Opposition. I have seen you in the past very quickly interrupt Opposition members when they are asking a question where you have deemed that they have gone beyond what the original question was or are out of bounds. This question is of that kind. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need any assistance. I had been listening carefully to the question. There was interjection. I realised that the question dealt with the period at the time when the Labour Government was not in power. The Prime Minister has no responsibility for that. 
Hon Annette King 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No I have ruled on the point of order. 
Hon Annette King 
: There is a point that I was relating my question to. It is the actual booking system establishment. That is what the question is about; the booking system. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No. I have ruled on the point of order. 
Rodney Hide 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I just ask you to consider this. During the exchange that we saw your initial ruling was that the Minister would be allowed to finish her question before you would rule whether it was in order—which as Mr Sowry has pointed out is a new ruling. Second while Mr Sowry was on his feet the Minister interjected on him in the point of order and you did nothing. Thirdly after you had ruled the Minister attempted to contest your ruling. I have to say that when any of us on this side of the House do that we certainly get sat down and usually put out. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No members are not. They are entitled to raise points of order and I refer them to the Standing Orders. Whether the points of order are valid is a completely different question. 
Peter Brown 
: Noting the Prime Minister’s answer about the 6-month guarantee is she aware of Mrs Grimsdell who lives in the Prime Minister’s electorate who has been in touch with the Prime Minister’s electorate office who is in pain and requires urgent surgery to her hip who has been in touch with Mrs King—who in writing told me that Mrs Grimsdell’s operation would be conducted by 28 August—and who right now at this very time is at home in agony; if she is not aware of that will she make herself aware of it and do something about it? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: My electorate office does its best to advocate for people within the rules set down. It sounds like it is doing a reasonable job. 
Peter Brown 
: I seek leave to table this letter from the Minister of Health Mrs King telling me that Mrs Grimsdell’s operation would be conducted by 28 August. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table the letter. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon Annette King 
: I seek leave to table the waiting fund review implementation plan which shows that the booking system established in the 1997 Budget saw 50000 people removed from the list. 
Document not tabled. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: How does the Prime Minister think that she and her electorate office are doing a reasonable job when there is a woman in her own electorate whose grievously serious and agonising condition was brought to both the Prime Minister’s and the Minister of Health’s attention; if that is her idea of a good job why on earth would she spend hundreds of millions of dollars on all sorts of illegal immigrants and refugees and disregard taxpaying New Zealand people? 
Rt Hon HELEN CLARK 
: I understood from the member’s colleague that Mrs Grimsdell has been told she will be getting the operation.