8. Climate Change—Coal-fired Industries Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Petroleum Exploration PermitsTODD MULLER (National—Bay of Plenty) to the Minister for Climate ChangeClimate Change—Coal-fired Industries Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Petroleum Exploration Permits8. TODD MULLER (National—Bay of Plenty) to the Minister for Climate Change: What impact will stopping offshore oil and gas exploration have on New Zealand's emissions?Hon JAMES SHAW (Minister for Climate Change): Discontinuing new offshore oil and gas exploration will prevent any new emissions from that drilling above and beyond the emissions that are already occurring from existing oil and gas extraction which is projected to continue for most of the next three decades. [Interruption]SPEAKER: Before Mr Muller takes a supplementary I'm going to ask his colleague who is sitting next to him and who continued to interject to stop. Todd Muller: Does the Minister acknowledge that natural gas has a huge part to play in global energy supply; if so why should New Zealand turn our back on assisting the globe in reducing their emissions and the economic opportunity that offers us domestically?Hon JAMES SHAW: The premise of that question is that New Zealand can start exporting significant amounts of gas to countries that are moving from coal to renewables. Actually the balance of evidence is that they are passing directly from coal to renewables without passing through gas first. Many of the numbers that I've seen that have been chucked around this morning have been somewhat over-optimistic given that every country in the world bar one is signed up to the Paris Agreement to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions and to get to net zero emissions by the year 2050. The existing operations in New Zealand are due to continue for the next three decades. That takes us out to about the year 2050 which is about the point that most of the rest of the world will have made the switch towards renewable energy. If we want to make money from exporting energy we would be much better to invest that money in renewable energy than in gas. Todd Muller: So does the Minister disagree then with the international panel on climate change who in their last report stated that the use of natural gas would increase prior to 2050 due to its use as a bridging fuel in reducing greenhouse gas emissions?Hon JAMES SHAW: Not in New Zealand.Todd Muller: How many tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions per annum can be avoided if use of coal for industrial heat is substituted by natural gases?Hon JAMES SHAW: As I said in my answer to the primary question New Zealand's existing operations will continue for much of the next three decades. If we stop exploring today what that means is we won't be adding any new emissions to that which is already projected to occur over the course of those decades. So this is about not adding to the problem.Todd Muller: Given the Paris Agreement aims to strengthen the global response to climate change in a manner that does not threaten food production how does the Minister see nine billion people being fed without nitrogen fertiliser which is produced by using natural gas?Hon JAMES SHAW: Nitrogen oxide is actually one of the worst greenhouse gas emissions out there. It's many many more times damaging in terms of climate change than methane or even than carbon dioxide. So what we need to do is move to sustainable forms of agriculture as well where our emissions from nitrous oxide are netted out. [Interruption] And if his colleagues don't want to hear the answer I won't continue.Todd Muller: Does the Minister have confidence that our large coal-fired industries will invest in gas when there is no future offshore oil and gas exploration available; and if so on what basis?Hon JAMES SHAW: I think that the member is referring primarily to Fonterra and other large users of coal in their drying operations to turn milk into milk powder and then export it over to places like China and so on where the water is added back in. Actually there are others ways of providing that industrial heat and I know that Fonterra are actually working very hard on alternatives to coal. I know that they've been exploring gas but they're also exploring electrification woodchip and other ways of providing that energy. We aim to assist with that transition. Fonterra itself actually has committed to becoming net zero carbon dioxide by the year 2050 and committing to building no new coal-fired stations after the year 2030. My response to that is That's a good start. How can we help to bring that forward and make it more ambitious?".Todd Muller: So why does the Minister have such confidence in alternative energy solutions such as woodchip biomass when if Fonterra's South Island dryers got transformed for that energy source it would need a forest the size of Belgium to run them? Hon JAMES SHAW: I didn't say that Fonterra were switching over to woodchip. I said that that was one of the options that they are exploring. They are exploring others as well. Obviously electrification would be the best and that can be run off renewable forms of electricity generation. This Government is committed to 100 percent renewable electricity generation by the year 2035 which should provide all the power that Fonterra needs."