Webb DuncanHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central): [Ginny Andersen prepares to take the call] Oh I think it's me Ginny Andersen. [Bell rung] But kia ora Madam Speaker.DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ooh sorry—I pushed the wrong thing; I meant to push the mike mute.Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB: Ha ha! That five minutes flew by! Look Tracey McLellan's let the cat out of the bag—Hon Kieran McAnulty: Oh did you want to do that?Hon Dr DUNCAN WEBB: No but we do want to see this go to select committee. But I'm aware that you know always—and I think I can say this on this sad day—some of our colleagues aren't here and they would want to express some reservations. Tracey McLellan has already spoken about the resourcing constraints in prisons. The Corrections annual review was had recently and we asked questions around resourcing. In particular I asked questions around statutory prison visits—prison visits which are required by law to be provided once a week. I have since asked further questions and resources are so constrained in Corrections that 12 out of the 18 prisons are not giving the legal entitlement of a visit a week. So that's the kind of constraints we're under.There's also in the Corrections Act a requirement to provide a management plan which is mentioned in the member's bill. Of course those management plans do have programmes which might be drug and alcohol programmes or there might be simple things like obtaining a driver's licence or literacy or whatever it might be. Now that's all well and good and I absolutely endorse the sentiment of the member in saying that we want prisoners to embark upon those programmes. My real concern is that the programmes will be set out in a management plan and the prisoner will not complete them—not because they don't want to but because the resources to provide them or to supervise them are not available.Now if there are failings in our corrections system—and it's clear there are some failings at the present time—those failings should not result in someone being denied parole. If an offender is told that they should do a violence and anger management plan as a part of their rehabilitative process and they say No. I can't be bothered. I don't want to." or "I didn't do the offence and I'm not going to embark on any rehabilitation." then I can see the you know sensible approach of this bill. It's a corrections facility after all—we want people to correct their ways and rehabilitation programmes are an appropriate and legitimate part of that. A refusal of someone to embark on that should absolutely be relevant at the very least—and it is in a parole hearing. This bill elevates that to say that it's mandatory. I'm prepared to have that discussion at the Justice Committee. But what I would not want to see is someone who is ready to be put back into the community but hasn't done a rehabilitative programme—not because they don't want to but because the resources aren't there.So at the very least when this comes to select committee we've got to (a) be confident that this isn't just flag waving that it really can make a concrete change operationally. It's always a challenge for the programme of this Government to make sure that all of the things that all the ways they want to change the world can be changed with the resources we have at our disposal. Secondly for those prisoners—and there are some; I've spoken to them—who want to have a rehabilitative programme but Corrections don't have the resources to provide it that they're not punished not continued to be incarcerated simply because Corrections can't provide them the service that they need that they deserve and that they're entitled to.So with those caveats—there's going to be you know significant discussion at select committee. But with those caveats we are going to vote for this bill in the Labour Party and I look forward to those discussions at select committee."