Bayly Andrew; Woods MeganANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): Yeah and I appreciate the indulgence of the committee. I just want to return to the Minister's Supplementary Order Paper which we haven't had much time to consider but I suppose the primary purpose of this—well one of the one of the primary purposes—is the issue around councilcontrolled organisations and also the wider responsibility of councils who obviously procure a significant amount of work whether in respect of infrastructure or just procurement of other construction-related projects. The issue over the councilcontrolled organisation which is covered under section 18E(3)(b)(va) and (vi) in clause 4 seems reasonably clear because my understanding of it—and I'm just going to get the Minister's understanding as well—is that where you've got a council-controlled organisation there would be directors in place who could fulfil the obligations and take responsibility for failure. And we all know that the bill includes a $50000 fine or penalties for directors who don't conform to the requirements of keeping the retentions in a proper order and reporting on them etc. So that bit I get but I suppose my question is a wider one: where councils in their own right and not necessarily through a council-controlled organisation procure directly how do we know if there is an issue where a council has failed to adhere to the retention policies set out in this bill where the liability lies in the event of failure?Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister for Building and Construction): In respect to whether this law will apply to councils as well as council-controlled organisations I can assure the member there's one law to rule them all.ANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): With all due respect that was quite a serious question. So the question is: directors if they don't perform their duties are subject to a personal liability of $50000. This talks about council-controlled organisations (CCOs) where there are directors in place so I can understand the liability. My question specifically—and I'll just maybe repeat it for the benefit of the Minister—is: councils clearly do not have directors; they have councillors. If there was an event where councils direct procurers of a construction project and they do not account for retention where does the personal liability lie in that situation? And I'll just keep talking if I may while the Minister's just getting an answer on that because I think it's a very important point. Councils are very large procurers in their own right—whether it's for wastewater services whether it's for roading projects all those types of different projects—and there will often be wider construction of buildings and they won't be done through a CCO; they will be done directly through the council entity.Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister for Building and Construction): Councils already sign contracts directly not only through council-controlled organisations. There is direct contracting through many of our councils. So issues around liability already apply and these differ from contract to contract depending sometimes around the delegations of who could sign the contract whether that's at an officer level or whether it requires the endorsement of the table. So there is not one simple answer for that. It will depend on the contracts. ANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): But that is my point—that is my point. The Act specifically rams home the liability for not complying with the bill provisions to directors. And you're right that includes $50000 of personal liability for each director. Why should a council be in a different situation—although it has a different structure—because councils may and often could actually not perform the duties that they should? So where in the bill does it direct me to say where those liabilities lie for nonperformance who I would sue and who the court would sue if there was nonperformance? Is it the councillor; is that the council officers? But I can't see any reference in the bill. Perhaps the Minister can help me.Hon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister for Building and Construction): I think what the member is getting into is what will differ from situation to situation and contract to contract. And like any other dispute that there is over a contract the council would need to take legal advice.