2. Question No. 2—Prime MinisterHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime MinisterQuestion No. 2—Prime Minister2. Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government's statements and actions related to the COVID19 response?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): Yes including our decision to pass legislation yesterday to set up a new Resurgence Support Payment for business affected by any resurgence of COVID-19. I appreciate the support that was given across this House for that initiative. Firms that experience a 30 percent drop in revenue over a seven-day period will be eligible. The payment would include a core per-business rate of $1500 plus $400 per employee up to a total of 50 full-time equivalents. It has greater flexibility than the wage subsidy it's available at lower alert levels and certainly our view is it's another tool to support businesses through tough times.Hon Judith Collins: Does she believe her Government has responded fast enough to recommendation 12 in the Simpson-Roche report in September last year that saliva testing should be introduced as soon as possible"?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again as I said yesterday—and I'm happy to repeat this again today—there's no defensiveness on this side of the House about the use of saliva testing. Who would disagree with using something that isn't nearly as invasive or creates nearly as much barrier—Chris Bishop: It's not invasive; it's spit—it's spit.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —as what a nasal PCR test does? So we're all—which is why I'm saying we're in favour of it Mr Bishop. So we view saliva testing favourably. Anything that is easier for the workforce is something that we'd like to see. However we of course also rely on the advice of our officials so I'm very pleased that they are meeting with some of those who have been advocating for the use of saliva-based testing I believe tomorrow. We've already got it under way in roll-outs in some of our facilities and I look forward to greater use of it across the board.Hon Judith Collins: Would increasing our testing capacity so that daily saliva testing can occur cost more or less than the $85 million per day that Infometrics suggests the current lockdown is costing New Zealanders?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: A couple of things that I would say there: one testing is one of the things we have to do regularly but we're also very very mindful that it is not also a fail-safe mechanism. So it is one thing and we are yes looking to add different testing mechanisms in order to add to the robustness of all of the different filters that we have. In terms of lab capacity look there's a little bit of variation in there. My understanding is some of the traditional mechanisms for testing if you're not doing pooled samples yes will use similar capacity as what you might for the processing of nasal PCR tests. However I can't speak to that in its totality because I know some of the newer initiatives being brought forward by some of the private sector use a more automated function. So I can't give a final answer but I'm sure that that is something that the Ministry of Health will discuss with that private sector entity today.David Seymour: Why has it taken New Zealand months longer to start using saliva PCR testing than other countries which also have low rates of COVID infection such as Australia Taiwan and Singapore?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: A couple of things. Again—and I give these merely as explanations and not as defensiveness because I think there is agreement in this House that it's a useful tool that we'd like to use more widely. But one issue I'd first raise is that yes it is as I understand being used in Australia—again an example of how it's not necessarily the only thing that needs to be done to provide protections because they have had issues too. We're all dealing with a tricky virus. The second thing is that even when it's used in other places some will have different strategies than us. Ours is not a strategy of just picking up the frequency or the incidence of COVID; we want to stop every single case. As we spoke about yesterday that's why validation is important and that is the issue that Health has raised with us. Before they remove a reliable form of testing you have to validate what you're using here. It doesn't matter if it's working well in Taiwan; you have to validate here.David Seymour: So did the Prime Minister mean to say just then that she has seen saliva PCR testing as an either/or for nasal PCR testing or does she understand that they could be complementary?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course I understand they could be complementary because that's exactly what we're doing now. But of course if you want to get some full benefit from being able to use daily testing regimes it wouldn't be a bad thing to eventually get it to a level of sensitivity or you're assured its level of sensitivity is such that maybe it could be used as a replacement in the future for nasal PCR.Hon Judith Collins: Was the Prime Minister aware that the Ministry of Health had only processed 140 saliva PCR tests in total when she told Parliament "we already are undertaking saliva testing for our most high-risk areas"?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member is aware that we don't have compulsory saliva testing—that's the first thing—because we still have our compulsion around the nasal PCR tests. I am aware of the numbers that the member has available around how frequently it's being used. I don't have the denominator—as in how many for instance front-line workers there were in those facilities at that time—but obviously—Hon Member: Thousands—thousands.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —I would like to see—that wouldn't be true sorry to the member that they would have thousands at the Jet Park on one day. But what we do want to see is as much use as possible because by doing that you are able to validate the process.Hon Judith Collins: How can that be an acceptable answer when we've got 140 saliva PCR tests that have been undertaken and how can that possibly be acceptable when we've been told by the Prime Minister that there was saliva testing being undertaken in Jet Park and Christchurch and Wellington?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: We said it was being rolled out at the Jet Park and was being rolled out.SPEAKER: I will allow the Prime Minister to answer it but can we get the phrasing right: "an acceptable answer" is my responsibility and not the Prime Minister's. But the substance of it—Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yeah. I don't see how any of that is in contradiction with the answer I just gave. (a) It wasn't compulsory; (b) I don't have the number of how many staff were at the facility at that time but clearly we'd want the numbers to be higher. If we were checking everyone and then being able to match it against their PCR tests you would want those numbers higher. So I fully acknowledge that.Hon Chris Hipkins: Has the Prime Minister been advised that the roll-out of saliva testing in our quarantine facilities in particular was delayed because the people involved in that process were diverted to investigating the Northland case and testing their contacts and others?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes. In fact I was told that some time ago—that there was a delay—because rightly so Northland became a very big focus to make sure that we were dealing quickly and effectively with that issue.Hon Judith Collins: Is the Prime Minister aware that private laboratories have had the ability to process thousands of saliva PCR tests per day for at least six months and could have been used in these situations?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes. These are conversations that I've actually had relayed to me around what's been available in the private sector. We have directly raised the possibility and the use of PCR testing using saliva directly with the likes of the Institute of Environmental Science and Research and with health officials because we have the same interest in this that you do. The response that we get is the one that we're sharing in this House: that whilst they see it as being something that we should be utilising there is just that level of caution of "Let's make sure we do it properly so that we don't lose some of the effective measures that we already have to keep us safe."Hon Judith Collins: Is the Prime Minister suggesting that to use saliva PCR tests would be instead of the nasal PCR tests or is she fully aware that they can both be done for the same people?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I have said in this House multiple times absolutely I understand that they can be done for the same people. In fact that's exactly what you want to do when you're going through a validation process. So yes I understand that. That's been relayed many times but as I've said many times before as well we want to make sure that the validation process is right so that when you're using this you can reliably use it—Hon Grant Robertson: Just listen to the answers to David Seymour.Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: —and you can have faith in what you have presented in terms of results. My final statement would be this: the members are trying to have an argument based on scientific evidence. If they wish to have this argument we have provided the ability to speak directly to the officials because I am a conduit for their advice they are giving us. So we are providing that. But I actually don't think we're in a dissimilar position. We agree that it's a useful tool but we have just acted with caution based on the advice we have been given.SPEAKER: Before the member goes on I just want to address the Deputy Prime Minister and say that it is not helpful for him to interject during the Prime Minister's answer. I'm trying to keep things stable over here. I also want to indicate to him that every member has every right to ask a question even if the question's been asked before.Hon Chris Hipkins: Can the Prime Minister confirm that private laboratories are already involved in our COVID-19 testing regime?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes.Hon Judith Collins: Can the Prime Minister advise what validation needs to be undertaken in New Zealand that hasn't already been undertaken in New South Wales and the UK and other countries that are currently using saliva PCR tests?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Again this is a question that I have asked of the officials as well and again an issue the member might like to raise directly with those who have expertise in these areas. My understanding is that when you're using these machines there is a validation process that needs to happen in-country and that generally is what happens for testing regimes regardless of whether it's a PCR for COVID or for HIV."