Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Baldock Larry: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:612;Page:9083] 
3.  
LARRY BALDOCK (United Future) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: Is he satisfied that the Land Transport Management Bill will contribute positively and equally to all the goals listed in the New Zealand Transport Strategy which are: “assisting economic development assisting safety and personal security improving access and mobility protecting and promoting public health ensuring environmental sustainability”; if so how will it do this? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 Yes I am satisfied that the provisions of the Land Transport Management Bill will contribute to all the objectives of the New Zealand Transport Strategy. 
Larry Baldock 
: How can the bill assist economic development and therefore the Government’s stated goal of returning New Zealand to the top half of the OECD if the purpose of the bill is not to achieve an efficient transport system as well as an integrated safe responsive and sustainable one? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The purpose of the bill sets out what the Government is trying to achieve. It is fair to say that after some discussion at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee the word “efficiency” was included in the bill and I think that improves it. But ultimately the decisions will have to be made by the board and it will have to weigh up all these factors and try to take them into account in order to advance New Zealand’s transport system. 
Hon Mark Gosche 
: What comment does the Minister have about the changes made to the bill by the select committee? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: The committee has done a very good job. There is no doubt that the bill is now a better bill. For example the committee has simplified and clarified the consultation requirements; it has as I said included the word “efficiency”; it has included more flexible arrangements for tolling and public-private partnerships; and it has emphasised the need for more strategic transport planning in the suggested changes to the regional land transport strategy. This shows a good effort from a select committee. 
Hon Roger Sowry 
: Given that the changes made in the select committee were done by Labour and the Greens with National New Zealand First and ACT opposing those changes and given that since the bill has been reported back the Road Transport Forum Business New Zealand the Employers and Manufacturers Association and the Automobile Association have all said that this bill fails to deliver why is the Minister so optimistic? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Because I am an optimistic kind of person. 
Peter Brown 
: Noting those answers and that the Minister has only this day stated on public radio that the Auckland Harbour Bridge cannot be tolled under this bill can the Tauranga Harbour Bridge or any of its lead-in roads be tolled under this bill as is being advocated by United Future? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I understand that the select committee spent a lot of time considering this matter. Some changes were made to the bill to bring in some flexibility around words like “operationally linked to” and “physically linked to” with the opportunity for an arrangement for another bridge in Tauranga to be built if the community so wishes. 
Rt Hon Winston Peters 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked particularly whether the Tauranga Harbour Bridge could be tolled under this proposal. He did not answer that question and it is key to this issue. It is not whether the people up there suggest some new bridge be built; the question is whether it will be tolled—yes or no. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The issue does not have to demand a yes or no answer but the Minister should address that part of the question. 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: If there were a desire in the local community to have a new bridge and part of the tolling arrangements was to put a toll on the existing bridge that would come forward as a proposal. Basically it would then be up to the Minister and the Government to decide whether that was an exceptional circumstance to allow that to occur. 
Deborah Coddington 
: How will economic development be advanced by this bill when earlier this year the Minister admitted that the Green Party’s control over transport was the price his Government paid for the 4c increase in petrol tax last year and given that this bill was written by a Green Party staffer who then went out and formed a lobby group to campaign against business interests that opposed the bill? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I admitted to no such thing and the bill was not written by that person. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Has the Minister seen the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report on decoupling economic activity and transport growth which notes that decoupling has the potential to develop both greater economic efficiency and environmental benefits and has he seen any acknowledgement of this from people who are complaining about the Land Transport Management Bill? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I will answer the second question first. No I do not recall having seen any but I have read a number of reports about decoupling. I think the important thing that the bill does which is what the strategy does also is to take a multimodal approach and to recognise the fact that we are going to have to look across all modes if we are to try to solve New Zealand’s transport problems. We are not going to solve the problems by motorwaying our way out of the problem. 
Hon Peter Dunne 
 Will the Minister acknowledge the contribution made by United Future members to the proposals in the bill regarding alternative funding proposals for new roading developments which subsequent to the bill’s reporting back have been acknowledged by both the Mayor of Auckland and the Greater Wellington Regional Council as providing them with positive steps forward to initiate long-overdue roading projects in their areas? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes I will acknowledge that. The reality is that as the bill went in the public-private partnership arrangements were far too inflexible. With good discussions in particular with United Future we have come up with some lease arrangement options that are very similar to the Melbourne link. It is highly confusing for people who are criticising the bill to say that this will not produce a public-private partnership arrangement. We have only to look at Melbourne to see such a situation occurring and I want to thank United Future members for their support in making this a better bill in that regard. 
Peter Brown 
: In light of that question and the Minister’s answer will he tell the House whether United Future members are correct when they state: “Ten years of funding has already been announced and allocated and the only way to get the road built and the second bridge”—and I add the words “in Tauranga”—“built quickly is to see it toll funded.”; are they correct in saying the funds have already been allocated for the next 10 years? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: It is true to say that Transit funds have been allocated over 10 years but this is reviewed on an annual basis for a whole pile of reasons—for example sometimes the roads cannot be built in time. So there is a whole review that goes on each year and the 10-year plan is updated as a result. The reality is that the bill does allow tolling options where communities want them and I thought that was something New Zealand First would support. 
Peter Brown 
: I seek leave for the Minister to reconsider his answer because his officials will say that the funding is indicative only. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member cannot seek leave on behalf of anybody else. 
Larry Baldock 
: Is the Minister aware of all the data that support the claims of the land transport sector that an efficient transport system will contribute to economic development and gross domestic product growth; if he is why is “efficiency” not included in the purpose of this Act? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes I have seen a lot of that argument and arguments have been made very very strongly by United Future members. After careful consideration the select committee has included the word “efficiency” when it comes to the way in which Transfund operates in terms of its funding. I think that is a good addition to the bill and that it improves it overall relative to the state of the bill before it went in. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: Is the Minister proud of presiding over a landmark change in transport direction which for the first time encourages a multimodal approach takes account of social and environmental issues early on ensures transport planners look at both supply and demand and will result in safer streets better public transport and less heavy freight on our roads? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Yes I am. I think that this transport strategy and now the Land Transport Management Bill are a major step forward and I acknowledge the work and support of the Greens in achieving that. 
Peter Brown 
: In light of the Minister’s earlier answer with regard to the Tauranga Harbour Bridge will he consider at all recommending to Transfund that funds are made available to fund that harbour link project as being advocated in Tauranga? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: Under legislation I am specifically not allowed to recommend any project at all. I think that is a key point the member has perhaps missed. It is important that Ministers do not get involved around specific projects. If that is the case then we get ourselves into all sorts of difficulties. I think the way the bill is now balanced is very very good and I thank the committee for its work. 
Larry Baldock 
: Is the Minister aware that the addition of efficiency criteria to the bill’s purpose clause and not somewhere in another part of the bill would help dispel the concerns of the land transport sector that a disproportionate amount of the revenue collected from road users will be spent on non-road initiatives; if so how else does he propose to mitigate these concerns? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I have read a lot of the comment about the bill and I have to say it would be almost impossible to mitigate some of the criticisms that come from some sectors because the reality is that a lot of people are still locked into the old ways of thinking. The new ways of thinking are to look at transport across a range of modes. That is what will get New Zealand back up to the top half of the OECD. 
Larry Baldock 
: Does the Minister therefore conclude that looking at transport across other modes means that we do not have to look at it efficiently; if so can he explain that? 
Hon PAUL SWAIN 
: I do not agree with that and that is why the select committee wisely put “efficiency” in clause 20 around Transfund’s objectives.