4. Question No. 4—Prime MinisterHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime MinisterQuestion No. 4—Prime Minister4. Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does she agree with Professor Nick Wilson from Otago University who said We must have had some failure at the border it's unlikely there could have been silent transmission for that long"; if not why not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister): I agree with him that it is unlikely that there could have been silent transmission for that long and the Institute of Environmental Science and Research (ESR) analysis supports that to date. However that does not necessarily mean there has been a failure at the border. As I said on 15 July when announcing our resurgence plan "We only need to look to Victoria New South Wales Hong Kong Singapore and Korea to see examples of other places that like us had the virus under control at a point in time only to see it emerge again. This does not mean anyone has failed. It means perfection in the response to a virus and a pandemic is just not possible." There are a number of ways the cluster originating at Americold could have entered New Zealand. To date we have not established the source of the cluster but we are working hard to investigate all possible options.Hon Judith Collins: Does she agree with Professor Des Gorman who following the recent revelations that 63 percent of border staff were not routinely tested said that the community "deserves better than such a casual approach to surveillance to possible infectivity among the border workforce"; if not why not?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The member is again trying to imply without any evidence that that is the source of the outbreak. I again point to the fact that the vast majority—the vast majority—now of our border staff our managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) staff those at ports have been tested and to date we have not found the source of this outbreak. [Interruption] And for the member who is pitching in the ESR evidence demonstrates that the genome sequencing suggests that the source of this outbreak was in very close proximity to the first cases thus demonstrating that it's not a matter of there having been necessarily a case that was not picked up.Hon Dr Megan Woods: Further to the member's answer there can the member confirm that the—SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Minister—the Prime Minister in this particular case.Hon Dr Megan Woods: Sorry. Can the Prime Minister confirm that the genomic sequencing has not formed a link with any case coming out of a manged isolation facility or indeed any other worker at the border—that that link to the B.1.1.1. genomic clade has not been established? Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Yes I can confirm that of those tests we've been able to run we have not been able to demonstrate a link between the genome sequencing of this cluster which is a B.1.1.1. cluster and those to date where we've had the ability to test who have come through our MIQ.Hon Judith Collins: When did her Government ask the Ministry of Health to work through a protocol which prioritises regular testing for staff who are more front-facing and at higher risk and did the Government ask that the strategy make weekly testing mandatory for front-facing border staff?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Of course as I've referred to in this House on many occasions we had a testing strategy that was endorsed by Cabinet on 22 June. It included reference to regular asymptomatic surveillance testing which included for example customs biosecurity aviation security staff and front-line staff at ports. Also I had further on 6 July an appendix on the testing strategy in another Cabinet paper which talked about proactive surveillance testing including asymptomatic testing and regular health checks of all border-facing workers—for example air crew customs biosecurity aviation security staff and front-line staff at ports. So both on 22 June and 6 July.Hon Judith Collins: Does she agree with Professor Nick Wilson who said that "to prevent such outbreaks again the Government needs to further improve the quality of its border management yet again."?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I cannot tell you whether or not the member is quoting from some of the original statements from Nick Wilson but I note her first quote was actually right at the beginning of the outbreak—so I believe somewhere in the order of 13 August or thereabouts. Obviously an enormous amount of work has been done sweeping across with surveillance testing of asymptomatic workers at our front line and has not demonstrated a link between the outbreak at Americold's site and our border staff. So the member can continue of course this line of inquiry but I would say to the member that no one wants to find the source more than we do. It helps us make sure that we have got all of the periphery of this cluster. But it is not evidence based to imply it has come from one particular origin when we have not defined that as yet.Hon Grant Robertson: Does the Prime Minister agree with Dr Shane Reti that it would "be almost impossible" to have 100 percent watertightness at the border and "I don't think anyone in anyone's hands anywhere around the world has done that."?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Dr Reti is correct because as I've said Hong Kong Singapore Korea Australia—places that have managed to get their cases down low although none have managed to do it for as long as we have—have all experienced resurgence. I note Vietnam reached 99 days and has been highly praised for their proactive and rigorous regime. They are yet to determine the source of their outbreak either. We will continue looking but it is simply not fair to say that this has been illustrative of a particular failure when there is no link to our borders or anywhere else at this stage.Hon Judith Collins: When she said yesterday "we've asked the Ministry of Health to work through a protocol"—[Interruption] SPEAKER: Order! Order! I know there were two members involved in that conversation and I can't quite work out how it's coming through the sound system but it is. Can I ask Mr Seymour and Mr Shaw just to be quiet. Thank you.Hon Judith Collins: Thank you Mr Speaker. When she said yesterday "we've asked the Ministry of Health to work through a protocol a matrix which prioritises more regular testing for those staff who are more front-facing and at higher risk." how does that differ from the testing strategy announced nine weeks ago on 23 June which said the same thing?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Thank you for finally acknowledging that the Government did ask for and seek asymptomatic testing because that is true and I have produced countless evidence in the House of that. What I've also demonstrated is that when we originally had that working through a voucher system we could not monitor it adequately. We moved to pop-up sites at the airport on 10 July and 16 July. Then those numbers were not adequate and we were seeking again to scale up the border testing and had every expectation that our surveillance testing as contained in the strategy of 22 June would have been rolled out. We're now working with Health to get the support of other agencies across airports and ports across the country to make sure we have that ongoing surveillance testing. I would say again though to the member that we still as yet do not have evidence that this is where the cluster at Americold which we have not traced any further back than 31 July at a cool store facility in Mount Wellington—we have not as yet determined where it came from.Nicola Willis: Sloppy!SPEAKER: Order!Hon Judith Collins: Has her Government—SPEAKER: I know that her leader hadn't started but using words like that as people are about to is disruptive and I think not a good reflection on the member's own leadership. Hon Judith Collins: Excuse me Mr Speaker that's not my leadership I hope you're—SPEAKER: Well the point that I'm trying to make is that when a leader is getting up to ask a question and a word like that is used through the leader's microphone as it was by Nicola Willis on that occasion I think it's a sign of disrespect to the leader whose microphone is being used and I know in my time if that was done to a leader there'd be some pretty serious consequences and not from the Speaker. Hon Judith Collins: Thank you Mr Speaker. Has her Government ensured yet that border workers are getting tested weekly?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I identified yesterday we've had a first sweep of staff that has included both those that you would consider at higher risk because roughly speaking—280 or so agency staff just at Auckland Airport alone would be considered higher risk. There are then some that are further back that we would still want to be part of ongoing surveillance. They were part of our two weeks of sweeping through. We've started that again. We expect that will happen over the next fortnight again and then from there we'll have a regime that means those who are more frequently interfacing potentially with at-risk individuals will be tested more frequently than those who are not considered at risk but we'd still want to be part of asymptomatic surveillance testing.Hon Judith Collins: Does she agree that Part 3 clause 18 of the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Maritime Border) Order which deals with crew of non-departing ships who arrive in New Zealand by air should be tightened to require mandatory testing of those replacement crews after their arrival in New Zealand?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: Those crews are directed to go directly to their ships. If the member wants to stop the ability for imports and exports that is a matter for her. We have a health order that very carefully manages the safety of our seafarers and our port workers. If anyone is to have any time in New Zealand they must quarantine. This is an arrangement for those who are departing a departing ship.Hon Judith Collins: So is the Prime Minister happy for such crew to fly into Auckland Airport and then fly to Wellington Airport to then board a ship without being tested?Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The order is very specific about it being crew who are leaving directly or who are coming into port and then leaving directly to their home country. That is what those orders are designed for. Of course we have regimes in place that mean people should not be having contact outside of those arrangements with others."