Hipkins ChrisDAN BIDOIS (National—Northcote): I would like now to come to the issue of workforce development councils. As we know these development councils replace the industry training organisations or ITOs and certainly—Hon Tracey Martin: No they don't.Hon Member: Ignore that.DAN BIDOIS: OK. So as I understand it these workforce development councils are established to maintain some skills across sectors in our country. Now what I want to talk to you about Minister is something that I think I've raised with you in select committee which is around how do we expose our kids to alternative careers other than university. I know we've had a discussion about this and I wanted to know whether you thought that it was appropriate that these workforce development councils had a role to help our children choose apprenticeships for example. As a guy who's gone down both routes—apprenticeship route first and then the university route—certainly I've seen the drive to get people into universities and I think that shows in our stats where actually 50 percent of school leavers go to universities and the rest either drop out or go into industry. So I wanted to get your sense of in particular clause 347 and whether it is something that you considered that workforce development councils could have a role to expose our children to private industry to careers in private industry to apprenticeships in private industry and whether that is I think a missed opportunity and whether there's something actually—you know whether you'd accept a late Supplementary Order Paper. I don't have one tabled.I do think it is an issue. It's an issue that schools have talked to me about that ITOs have talked to me about that industry has talked to me about—the lack of apprentices. You can throw all your money on it and you guys—your Government sorry—is throwing money at it but if you're not getting into our schools and getting excitement amongst our students to go into industry to do an apprenticeship if the best option they have is to go in to do a BA at university rather than do a builder's apprenticeship then I think we've got a real problem in New Zealand.Hon Tracey Martin: Don't knock a BA.Dr Deborah Russell: Don't mock a BA.DAN BIDOIS: Hey I've got a BA—I've got a BA.I think that's that challenge. I think the fact that the member opposite mentions the issue with the BA actually reinforces the stereotypes that we have over university qualifications versus builders versus butchers versus other trade apprentices. So I would like you Minister to address I guess the function of these workforce development councils the role that they could have in helping to encourage school leavers to go into trades and other apprenticeships and where this fits in this legislation. Thank you.Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education): I thank the member for his contribution. I was just reflecting actually as I was listening to the debate that one of the things I think Parliament struggles with is this a little bit. We have far fewer tradies across the Chamber now than we might have had 30 years or 40 years ago and that's something that the Parliament probably needs to reflect on. There are far more people around this Chamber with degrees than there would have been 30 years or 40 years ago. I think sometimes actually we lack that voice in Parliament and I think it would be good to have a bit more of that here in the Chamber. I say that as someone with a university degree but it would be good anyway.With regard to workforce development councils I absolutely believe they should have a role in exposing kids in schools to a broader range of career options. We've been doing a lot of work in this space. We start in this in New Zealand far too late. We wait till kids are thinking about what they're going to do when they leave school before we start getting good careers advice to them. Actually we need to start much earlier in the piece probably around intermediate school ages; the research is telling us that's where the careers advice should really be starting.One of the things I've tried to do as Minister of Education is give credit where it's due. The last Government did some good things in this area. I think trades academies were a good innovation. Our Government has expanded them. I do believe that they are doing a good job of exposing kids to a wider range of career opportunities and getting them on a pathway which is leading to future qualifications and good solid employment.The Government prior to that—our Government—set up the Gateway programme which was about getting kids into sort of tasters of on-job learning and actually I think that that's a really positive programme as well.We've put some money into careers expos and particularly vocational careers expos. Again coming back to the member's actual question workforce development councils I think can play a really significant role here in getting businesses connected with schools to expose kids to that wide range of different trades and career options that might be available to them.I have to say for a long time the universities have done a far better job of getting into schools than vocational education providers and businesses have done. We need to really do something about that. We're working very hard on doing something about that because I want to make sure that kids understand the full range of options that are available to them.