Fitzsimons Jeanette: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to MembersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeFitzsimons Jeanette: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members[Sitting date: 11 October 2007. Volume:642;Page:12290. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]2.JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader—Green) to theMinister of Finance: Is he confident that the Government’s investment in the “biggest road-building programme this country has ever seen” has reduced traffic congestion in Auckland?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance): I am sure that when the road-building programme is completed—[Interruption]Hon Maurice Williamson: Stay away from men in white coats!Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I just hope it is not contagious that is all I can say. I am sure that when the road-building programme is completed the congestion will be less than if the road-building programme had not been completed. Of course whileroads are being built congestion can increase. It is also true that we have at the same time increased spending on passenger transport 12 times since coming into office. So if congestion has increased that might even raise some questions about that issue.Jeanette Fitzsimons: Has the Minister seen yesterday’sNew Zealand Heraldarticle that details how despite heavy Government investment in Auckland motorways much of which is now complete morning peak speeds over the Auckland region have dropped to 34 kilometres an hour the slowest recorded since 2003 with average delays of 50.4 seconds for every kilometre travelled and with speeds plummeting by 10 kilometres an hour along large sections of the motorways; if so how much further does he expect average speeds to decrease once this year’s road spend of $593 million is built?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I am surprised the member claims that the rebuilding programme in Auckland is almost complete. There is still a great deal of further work to be done in that respect and until that programme is complete obviously we will not see the full benefits. However I probably agree with the member that it is also important to put more money into public transport. That is why we have increased passenger transport fundingtwelvefold since we became the Government. It is also why it is important that we do not have people taking extreme positions on the regional petrol tax because without that tax in Auckland we will not be able to see electrification of the railway system because the Auckland Regional Council certainly will not be able to fund its part of the bargain.Darien Fenton: Has he seen any reports on forecast congestion in the Auckland region prior to this Government’s increase in infrastructure spending?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: We had a report when we became the Government that in fact the decades of under-investment in roading and passenger transport in Auckland was a major issue. I think we can be sure that without that investment some of the travel times we have seen recently would have been substantially higher and of course what the Government is also engaged in is major public transport investment in the Auckland region and it wishes to continue to increase that level of investment.Hon Maurice Williamson: Has traffic congestion in Auckland as measured by average speeds achieved in additional travel time in seconds per kilometre got better or worse in the 8 years since Labour was elected?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I do not have the comparison back as far as that. The survey is back to 2003 and of course during that period of time Auckland has grown very very substantially indeed. The size of the population has got very very much bigger during that period of time. Therefore without further investment in both roading and public transport there will be deterioration. What we do not need to do is to borrow to pay for that.Jeanette Fitzsimons: How does he interpret the map in yesterday’sNew Zealand Herald showing that there are a few places where congestion has substantially reduced on Auckland’s motorways and that they tend to be parallel to those places where public transport systems such as the North Shore busway have opened?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I regard it as successful Government policy in terms of the investment in public transport in Auckland but the reality is that it is still true in Auckland that a fairly small proportion of the population travels on public transport particularly the working population. What is more Auckland is a city that has an enormous amount of service industry traffic around it and that traffic cannot go by public transport; it has to go by road.Jeanette Fitzsimons: Does he agree with the internationally acclaimed peak oil expert RichardHeinberg who has just finished his presentation on peak oil in the Beehive theatrette at lunchtime and who is present in the gallery today that New Zealand needs urgent expansion and electrification of public transport because liquidfuel production worldwide even including oil from unconventional sources peaked more than a year ago and now appears to be in decline?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: There are any number of experts with different views about when peak oil did occur may occur or will occur. I am not in the least an expert to make a judgment between all those enormously varying estimates. But I can say to the member and perhaps he might acknowledge this a little bit because he has had something to do with it that this Government has put enormous amounts of extra money into public transport. We are extending electrification in Wellington; we have helped fund that in Wellington; we have taken back the rail track; we are double-tracking the western rail line in Auckland; we are building new railway stations in Auckland; we are separating the grades in certain important parts of the Auckland area; and we now have a proposal to electrify the Auckland rail system and that will require significant expenditure and will be dependent upon Auckland coming to the party to pay for a large proportion of that expenditure. It is not fair to expect people in the rest of the country to pick up the bulk of the cost of electrification of Auckland’s rail system.Peter Brown: Will the Minister clarify the position: does he agree that for the foreseeable future there will be a need for cars trucks and buses—they might well be powered differently and there might be different numbers of people travelling in them but there will be a need—an if there is a need then it is essential that we have a decent safe highway roading system and to do that we need a practical hands-on fully funded roading maintenance programme?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: That is absolutely correct. Indeed even from the perspective of passenger transport to try to build a metropolitan-style underground system in Auckland—or even an above-ground rail system in Auckland—will be almost impossible. Unfortunately the horse bolted out of that stable something like 50 years ago in terms of its possibility. We therefore have to ensure that there is also a proper roading system. I want to emphasise again that it is not just a matter of passenger movements it is also a matter of industry and business and service movements in Auckland and they cannot be done on buses and trains.Jeanette Fitzsimons: While congratulating the Minister on the steps that have been taken to accelerate public transport and noting that 12 times almost the nothing that the National Party left us with is still not huge can I ask whether he can assure the House as he wrestles with the question of what capital investments to fund with the $8.7 billion Budget surplus in order to avoid extreme and unsustainable tax cuts that he will not repeat his 2006 largesse of hugely increasing funding for new motorways but will instead prioritise new public transport infrastructure as suggested in the Government’s Next Steps programme and the energy efficiency and conservation strategy launched today?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I almost feel faint with damned praise after that particular effort from the member on public transport and the Government’s policy I think I can say. The Government will continue to invest and increase investment in public transport in Auckland and in other parts of the country. There are a range of possibilities for further infrastructure investment some of which would help indeed in terms of movements of people even if they have nothing to do with transport.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister whether he recognises that the problem with the Auckland transport infrastructure is the plethora of local government organisations and the number of people demanding to be heard and to have their way in respect of any future plans which leads to inevitable paralysis and stagnation and that no matter what is sought to be done in Auckland there is something that has to be changed in respect of the system that makes decisions on transport?Hon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I think that although it is fair to say the flowchart around Auckland decision-making is still somewhat complicated it is on the public transport side a good deal simpler than it used to be with the creation of the Auckland Regional Transport Authority. I think the real issue comes about in terms of the ability of Auckland itself to fund significant advances in public transport in Auckland and not simply to expect central government to pick up the entire cost which is not something I think taxpayers in the rest of the country are prepared to see as fair and reasonable.Jeanette Fitzsimons: I seek leave to table the article from yesterday’sNew Zealand Heraldwith the map headed “Motorway work has not helped crawl”.Document by leave laid on the Table of the House.