Bayly AndrewANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): Well there's a bit that's come up in the debate already but I am very impressed with the Minister of Finance's ability to bluff it out brazenly. Some of his comments—particularly I just want to return to the comment about how the quality of spend has been so fantastic and delivered so much. I just think to myself—you know I'm sitting here listening to him: $5 billion extra in education" and what have we got out of that? Well half our kids are not going to school and of course the exam results that they're delivering—well let's not go there. I'm sure that the standard of education wasn't as good as when the Minister was at school.Then I think about the health spending and of course billions have gone into that. And of course we've got 80000 extra people on the waiting lists. We've got the ticking time bomb of many people who do not know that they've got illnesses—particularly women—and all those sort of things and yet the Minister just said before how much more was being delivered for New Zealanders. I'd think that is a long-running dispute because many New Zealanders are not seeing that.The second thing: I just want to get back to the earlier debate and the Minister is very good at using monetary values and percentages when he's ready to use them. Of course in terms of spending which is of course what we're talking about here core Crown expenses are projected to increase in monetary value. They will go from $126 billion to about $150 billion over the next five six years. Of course from a percentage term it looks like there's a decrease. And of course we all know what that's about and that's not because Government expenditure is decreasing; it is increasing in monetary value. If I said to Mr Robertson "Would you like $125 billion to spend or would you like $150 billion to spend?" I know what the answer would be for Mr Robertson.But what is happening partly through inflation of course—because that's what's driving a lot of this issue—is that the economy grows and the GDP is growing—some of it counter to all the efforts of the Government to try and stilt that with small businesses because they've thrust so much additional costs on them. So I just want to make that point. But the Government spend is still increasing in monetary terms. The exact quote or one of the quotes from Adrian Orr the Reserve Bank Governor which is actually just slightly different from what the Minister said before is "Reprioritisation of current spending and revenue arising through other alternatives makes the job of monetary policy easier"—i.e. for the Reserve Bank—"because it is redirecting current income rather than creating new cash in the economy." Read into that last bit: creating inflation. And of course Mr Adrian Orr was quite clear in at least two of the hearings before the Finance and Expenditure Committee that fiscal policy—i.e. the policy run by the Minister of Finance—was contributing significantly to his job of taming inflation; that is why we've got such rapid rises on inflation. Need I remind you that only in 2021 the official cash rate was at 0.25 percent and here we are at 4.75 percent and highly likely to be at 5 percent tomorrow. For every percent increase in debt—and the average value of New Zealand debt is about $487000 per house—that equates to $5000 or over that period roughly $20000 of additional spending—so that's $30000 pre-tax—that households have got to find to pay their debt pay their interest on their mortgages.Of course I now turn to the Mind Your Own Business summary that came out yesterday. What we're seeing now is the dangerous impact on both households and on small businesses. And just for Chlöe Swarbrick's benefit financial hardship is now up 60 percent for people making house loan repayments—that's part of it—but for small businesses we have now got 30 percent of businesses who have got less than six months if current interest rates stay where they are. And actually one in five—19 percent—businesses are saying if the interest rates continue to go up they will need to close their business. That is a result of that Minister the Minister of Finance."