Volume 657 Week 23 - Tuesday 8 September 2009 
Volume 657 Week 23 - Tuesday 8 September 2009 
[Volume:657;Page:6019] 
Tuesday 8 September 2009 
Mr Speaker 
 took the Chair at 2 p.m. 
Prayers 
. 
Visitors 
Indonesia—Speaker House of Representatives 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have much pleasure in informing members that the Hon Agung Laksono Soemono Speaker of the House of Representatives of Indonesia is within the precincts of this Chamber. I am sure members would wish that he be welcomed and accorded a seat on the left of the Chair. 
Hon Agung Laksono Soemono accompanied by the Deputy Speaker entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair. 
Brazil—Joint Parliamentary Delegation National Congress 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have much pleasure in informing members that a joint parliamentary delegation from the National Congress of Brazil led by Senator Heraclito Fortes First Secretary of the Senate is also present in the gallery. I am sure members would wish that the delegation be welcomed also. 
Speaker’s Rulings 
Select Committees—Status of Reports and Proceedings 
Mr SPEAKER 
: On the Thursday before the House adjourned members raised a number of points of order about the status of committees their reports and proceedings. Standing Order 180(3) makes it clear that a select committee established for a particular purpose continues in existence until the completion of that task by the presentation of its final report on it. Members raised with me Speaker’s ruling 92/2. This ruling from 1892 is relevant now only in so far as it protects a committee’s report once it is finally agreed. This is the report that must be presented; it cannot be revisited. Standing Order 180(3) prevails in terms of extinguishing the life of the committee. 
The ruling recognises that a committee can reconsider a report if the final report has not been fully agreed. Committees should take great care if they intend to use the practice of agreeing a final report by “round robin” or subject to certain conditions because there is always a real possibility that it will result in uncertainty. 
Where doubt arises about the form of a committee’s final report the only way it can be resolved is by the committee. I refer members to Speaker’s ruling 93/6: “If doubts arise as to what the chairperson was directed to report the report should be deferred for the committee to meet again and clarify the position.” It is a matter for the committee not for the House. The House has no cognisance of matters before a committee until they are reported to the House by the chairperson. I refer to Speaker’s ruling 87/2. The Speaker intervenes only when invited to do so by resolution of the committee. Again I refer to Speaker’s ruling 87/4. 
Once the committee adopts its final report the chairperson must report to the House within a reasonable time. This does not mean at once or even at the first opportunity. Indeed it is desirable to hold back a report for a few days so that the necessary preparation can be made to print the report. A delay of about 1 week in reporting to the House is quite acceptable. I refer to Speaker’s ruling 93/5. The responsibility for reporting lies with the chairperson of the committee. Another member of the committee may present a report but only where authorised to do so by the chairperson. If a chairperson did not report within a reasonable time the House may order the report to be presented. 
Finally where a committee as part of its deliberation sets a specific deadline for receipt of amendments to a report or minority views it has in effect agreed a closure. In doing so a committee should be careful to ensure the effect of the closure resolution is very clear. 
A committee cannot require a member to submit a minority view nor can it amend one but one having been proposed a committee must decide whether to agree to its inclusion in the report. The setting of a closure does not presuppose that the amendments or minority views that are the subject of it will be agreed to. A committee’s deliberation must include a specific resolution providing for their agreement. In agreeing to resolutions to conclude deliberation outside a committee meeting a committee should also give careful consideration to including a resolution to deal with the situation where agreement cannot be reached. 
The setting of a closure during a committee’s deliberation is a somewhat unusual practice for select committees. Where the Standing Orders do not provide directly for committee procedure a committee must rely on the Committee of the whole House procedure and Standing Order 200 covers that. The effect of a closure in the Committee of the whole House is that amendments handed in at the time the closure is agreed are in the possession of the committee and may be withdrawn only by leave. I refer to Speaker’s ruling 114/7. 
A minority view can be considered as if it were an amendment. Once it is received by the clerk of the committee it becomes part of the committee’s proceedings. It may be withdrawn up until the time agreed for the closure. A member wanting to withdraw a minority view after that time would need the leave of the committee. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Thank you very much for that very thorough ruling which I think is very helpful on the issues that we considered on that Thursday and we will reflect on what you have said. The one immediate question that the Opposition would raise is that you said a week is quite an acceptable period for delay but you also said the delay of a presentation of a report to the House is not a matter for the House itself in the first instance. In the specific case that led to this ruling from you I understand there was a delay of 2 weeks and 1 day between the committee resolving to take a course of action and the report finally being presented. I wonder at what point members can bring it to you for your intervention once that week which you have signalled is a reasonable period of delay has been breached to the extent that this report was. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member raises a perfectly fair point of order. This is not a well-defined area in the Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings. What is quite clear is that the chair has responsibility to report to the House although at the end of the day if the chair refuses for whatever reason to present to the House the report of the committee the House can order that it be done and the question then becomes how the House goes about ordering that. 
It seems to me that there are two possible mechanisms. The first is for a member to raise it by way of a point of order and to seek leave that the House require the report to be presented. Of course the danger with that procedure is that it takes only one member to dissent and then the House cannot order the report to be presented. A second more complex procedure that would perhaps give a more certain result is for a notice of motion to be lodged which would be a debatable motion obviously and which would ultimately be voted on. Then the majority of the House could order that the report be presented. There are those two mechanisms and certainly the second of those two mechanisms although more complicated has the certainty of following the will of the majority of the House. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I accept your ruling particularly in respect of the committee itself not being functus officio which was not a point that I had made. The third way in which that problem could be resolved would be on a point of order for the Speaker to enforce the Standing Orders and to require that the report be produced forthwith. It does not seem to me that it is a matter where members have discretion as to whether those reports are eventually tabled; the Standing Orders require that they are. So it becomes an enforcement issue for you rather than an issue of the discretion of the House I would suggest. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am very happy to look further into that particular issue but I believe that such a matter is actually in the first case one for the committee and then at the end of the day it is one for the authority of the House. The Speaker can only enforce the Standing Orders and it would be my interpretation having looked fairly carefully at this issue that a Speaker could require that a report be presented only where the House has set a deadline for that. Ultimately it is the House that must rule on these matters. The Speaker cannot set a deadline for that. I have looked fairly carefully at the Standing Orders and at Speakers’ rulings on these issues and that is why I have outlined the two mechanisms that I believe are available to members to ensure that a committee chair presents a report. Once the majority of the House rules on the matter then of course the Speaker can enforce it that the report be presented by that deadline. 
Questions to Ministers 
Economy—Reports 
1. CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
 to the  
Minister of Finance 
: What reports has he received on the economy? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 Treasury yesterday issued its monthly economic indicators for August pointing to an improved global outlook and signs of a fragile world recovery. It suggested that unemployment would peak around 7.5 percent compared with 8 percent in the Budget forecasts. I welcome these early signs of recovery particularly if it helps to preserve jobs but we have considerable work ahead of us over the next 3 to 5 years to ensure that New Zealand achieves sustainable long-term increases in productivity and to undo the economic mismanagement of the last decade. 
Craig Foss 
: What other observations did Treasury make in its monthly economic indicators report? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Treasury noted that the composition of growth potentially based on housing and consumer spending is unlikely to unwind our economic imbalances such as the large current account deficit and high debt levels. I agree with these observations and particularly that we need to address these structural imbalances to achieve a truly sustainable economic recovery. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: In light of his previous answer and given reports that a potential recovery would be on the back of a return to growth in the housing market and an increase in domestic spending does he stand by his comment: “Many of the people who are losing their jobs today are the unfortunate victims of policy that built economic growth on borrowed money …”; if so is this the kind of recovery he planned? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: I agree with that member that too many people’s jobs were based on borrowing and consumption. That is precisely why I made the point that we need to work towards a sustainable recovery based on exports and investment because that will lead to sustainable jobs. 
Craig Foss 
: What would be the consequences of allowing the imbalances to continue unabated? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: As I said in answer to the previous question we are looking for a sustainable recovery rather than one that could pick up on the back of housing and consumption but then peter out as people found that for instance the cost of servicing their large household debts was growing on them and they could not afford to go spending or to bid up house prices. The challenge for New Zealand will be to rebalance the economy towards exports and investments and that is going to take some time because the imbalances have been a good decade in building up. 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: In light of Treasury’s indications that the economy is beginning to recover when can those currently unemployed expect to find a job and when can New Zealanders expect to see the resumption of contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund the reinstitution of research and development tax credits or further KiwiSaver incentives? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: Fortunately New Zealanders are finding jobs every week and if the member looks at the unemployment flows he will see that for every two people coming on to the dole one person is going off it. In respect of the Superannuation Fund contributions we have said we would contribute again to the fund when we actually have surpluses to contribute. On current forecasts that is 10 years away. 
Metiria Turei 
: In light of the value of the $20 billion tourism industry to the New Zealand economy does the Minister believe that allowing for mining in national parks like Mount Aspiring home of the Routeburn or in internationally recognised Ramsar sites such as the Awarua Waituna Wetland in Southland would be good for a tourism industry based on a “100% Pure New Zealand”—“clean green” brand? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH 
: In the first place the Government is doing a stocktake rather than actually digging mines. Secondly I am sure that that member was as supportive as she could have been of the Pike River mine which is an excellent example of the exploitation of a mining resource on the conservation estate. As I recall that occurred while she was part of the governing coalition. 
SAS—Deployment to Afghanistan 
2.  
Hon PHIL GOFF (Leader of the Opposition) 
 to the  
Prime Minister 
: What advice did he personally receive from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade before recommitting SAS troops to Afghanistan? 
Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) 
: 
 The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade along with a number of other departments provided advice in the preparation of material for Ministers making the decision on whether to redeploy the SAS to Afghanistan. I was one of those Ministers. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Was the Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade John Allen correct in stating on  
Q+A  
on Television New Zealand on Sunday that “we didn’t advise the Government to send the SAS to Afghanistan”; if so what was the advice of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Mr Allen was quite correct: no specific view was ever provided to me by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade on whether to redeploy the SAS. That decision was left to Ministers. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: What heed did the Prime Minister pay to the warnings given to him surrounding the deployment of combat forces such as the inadvertent killing of civilians—like the death of 95 civilians near Kunduz just last week—which has led to the growing alienation of Afghan people from the international forces there? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Part of the advice from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade was clear. It was frank advice on the security situation in Afghanistan and the importance of the role New Zealand could play in stabilising Afghanistan. The previous Minister of Foreign Affairs and Defence had this to say: “Security and stability in Afghanistan will be not be restored by peacekeeping and development assistance alone.” That was from Phil Goff who thought it was right to deploy the SAS three times when he was in Government; in Opposition he does not. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Before I take the honourable member’s supplementary question let me say the question specifically asked whether any advice was received on issues to do with the safety of civilians and the Prime Minister did not— 
Hon Phil Goff 
: That was my point of order. 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Speaking to the point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is not a point of order. I have just pointed out to the Prime Minister that in fact I listened very carefully and the advice— 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: The advice was frank on the security situation; it was not specific to civilians; it was just generalised advice about security. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: What advice was given to him in respect of whether most Taliban combatants were local groups operating independent of any international influence and to what extent the Taliban was under the influence of al-Qaeda? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I do not recall any specific advice in relation to that. 
Keith Locke 
: Will the Government be following Australia’s example of openness and accountability in telling us which Afghan provinces our SAS unit will be operating in; if not why not? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: It is not my practice nor was it the practice of the previous Government to discuss the operational details of the SAS deployments. I may at an appropriate time make a statement about its whereabouts but I do not intend to do that at this time. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: In his earlier answers was the Prime Minister telling us that he made the decision to deploy SAS troops to Afghanistan without any information as to whether what was happening in Afghanistan today was relevant to international terrorism and as to whether there was a growing alienation of Afghan people against the presence of international troops? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: No. What I said earlier was that a range of advice was provided to me about the security situation in Afghanistan. Advice was also provided not just by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade but by my departments the intelligence departments and by the Ministry of Defence on a range of areas. In the end the decision on whether to deploy SAS troops to Afghanistan was made by the Government. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Is the Prime Minister prepared to see New Zealand lives put at risk to defend a regime that is known to be endemically corrupt that is widely suspected of huge electoral fraud in the recent election that is working today in conjunction with warlords known to have committed gross human rights abuses and is known to be linked to criminal groups involved in drug trafficking; if so why did he make the decision to recommit SAS troops? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Let me try to answer at least one or two parts of that rather rambling question by the Leader of the Opposition. First we are responding to— 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Who are the “allegators”? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I think it is a bit like Afghanistan in the Labour caucus at the moment. But putting that to one side New Zealand responded to a call from the International Security Assistance Force to help out in Afghanistan. Of course New Zealand could have not responded to that call and so could have a lot of countries around the world. But what is the alternative? The alternative is to return to a Taliban-led Government that was oppressive and that cared not one jot about women. I suspect that if that Government were to be returned to Afghanistan the same Labour Party currently arguing about our desires to try to put some security back into Afghanistan would be arguing from completely the other corner. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Why did the Prime Minister favour the redeployment of SAS troops to Afghanistan given all the problems that have emerged in the last couple of years which led the previous Labour Government not to redeploy the SAS and why did he agree to withdraw from Bamian the provincial reconstruction team which is regarded as a model by others in that country and has the support of local people? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Maybe it is useful for me to remind Mr Goff of his own words about the SAS. This is what he said when—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There will be silence. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It was a very straightforward question. I indicated in that question that a number of things had changed in the last 3 years and clearly from the start of the Prime Minister’s response he was going nowhere near actually trying to address the question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: With respect the Leader of the Opposition did ask why the Government had departed from the views of the previous Labour Government in respect of the deployment of troops. I think that the Prime Minister was answering that part of the question in what appeared to be a fairly direct response. 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Let me remind Mr Goff because it may be useful of what he said when the SAS was deployed under his leadership. 
Hon Members 
: What year? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I am sorry my little chipmunks I do not know but I will get the year and come back to you. Anyway this is what Phil Goff said when he deployed the SAS to Afghanistan. He said that their presence together with other international forces had been “critical both to constrain the influence of al-Qaeda and Taliban elements and to allow nation-building and reconstruction to take place.” Nothing has changed. 
Hon Phil Goff 
: Why has the Prime Minister ignored all the advice that was given to the previous Labour Government and that in the last 3 years of the Labour Government led that Government to decide that it was no longer appropriate to send combat troops to Afghanistan and that we should assist in other ways such as the provincial reconstruction team which was far more effective? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: Because International Security Assistance Force nations were asked to make a contribution— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I apologise to the Prime Minister for interrupting for a moment but there was a fair bit of exchange during the previous supplementary question. The Leader of the Opposition has asked a pretty straightforward and serious question and his own colleagues do not help elicit an answer by a lot of interjecting because they invite the Prime Minister to respond to the interjections. If they want to hear an answer to the question I suggest they ease off a bit. 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: It is a very simple position. New Zealand has over 150 people in Bamian as part of an international effort trying to stabilise Afghanistan so that one day all of us can leave Afghanistan. What the Leader of the Opposition said is quite correct: at the moment the situation in Afghanistan is getting more dangerous and it is getting worse. The Government acknowledges that. We have only one of two options. One is that we lend our shoulder to the wheel as other countries have to try to stabilise the position and basically make sure that the Taliban is restrained or we decide to leave our troops in the reconstruction unit in Bamian in which case they will be in a worse position. I for one can assure the Leader of the Opposition that if ever I am the Leader of the Opposition I will not be arguing that I would do something completely different if I were in Government. 
Keith Locke 
: I seek leave to table a section from the Commonwealth of Australia parliamentary debates on 28 February 2007 where the Australian defence Minister explains the deployment of Australian special forces in Oruzgan province. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Legal Aid—Review 
3.  
CHESTER BORROWS (National—Whanganui) 
 to the  
Minister of Justice 
: What recent announcements has he made regarding legal aid? 
Hon SIMON POWER (Minister of Justice) 
: 
 On 1 September I announced the release of the discussion paper  
Improving the Legal Aid System 
. The discussion paper is the first stage in a fundamental review of the legal aid system led by Dame Margaret Bazley. The purpose of the review is to consider how the system can best be structured so that it delivers effective services to those who need them most in a way that is cost-effective and sustainable. Dame Margaret Bazley will provide me with a final report from the review in November. 
Chester Borrows 
: How can the public have their say on the future of the legal aid system? 
Hon SIMON POWER 
: Public submissions on the discussion paper are open until 9 October. I note that in a press release the Hon Lianne Dalziel and Charles Chauvel indicated they would be making a submission on the discussion document. I look forward to receiving that. I encourage members of the public in particular as well as members of the profession to read the discussion paper which can be found on the Ministry of Justice’s website. They should all make a submission if possible. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Is the Minister disappointed in the lack of opportunity for expanding the Public Defence Service that this paper presents in light of his public endorsement of the service; and will the Government consider the expansion of the service beyond the very limited suggestion in the discussion document where it is limited to improving standards where there are particular problems? 
Hon SIMON POWER 
: No I am not disappointed at all with the discussion document. As the member knows the Budget itself announced an expansion in the Public Defence Service. I am on the record as saying I am very impressed with it and I am sure it will have a role. 
Rahui Katene 
: What progress has been made to co-locate advice and information services with other social services in order to address the underlying problems that the discussion document says are being faced by Maori and Pacific peoples and by other groups of people at risk of social exclusion? 
Hon SIMON POWER 
: Well although we await Dame Margaret’s final report on the issue of the proposed future shape of the legal aid system including whether that system should be integrated with other social services I can say on first hearing the suggestion that it is something I would be prepared to have a look at. 
Child Youth and Family—Increasing Workloads for Regional Staff 
4.  
Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: What reports if any has she received on the effect increasing workloads would have on regional Child Youth and Family staff? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police) 
 on behalf of the  
Minister for Social Development and Employment 
: The restructure that Child Youth and Family has recently undertaken will put at least 52 more social workers on the front line. This restructure was designed to enable staff to deal with any increase in workload. 
Hon Annette King 
: What is the Minister’s response to the report that the Kaitaia office of the Ministry of Social Development lacks resources and that staff were ordered not to tell her of their woes when she visited them recently? If staff are not allowed to talk to her and if reports to her have to be sanitised how can she really know what pressures the staff are facing? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I am sure the Minister would be very pleased to hear from that member about any reports like that. If the member really was genuine in her concern she would have advised the Minister of it. 
Hon Annette King 
: Does the Minister agree with the Kaitaia Ministry of Social Development management that the relationship between her and regional offices is “a relationship between a master and a servant—that is the servant knows their place”? As the master how does she hear the voices of her servants if they are to be muzzled? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Things must have changed since Labour was in Government because the chief executive of the Ministry of Social Development not the Minister is the employer of the staff in the regional office. Obviously it was much more political under the Labour Government. 
Hon Annette King 
: Has the Minister or her staff given a directive to Ministry of Social Development staff not to meet with Opposition MPs so they can hear the pressures staff are facing? This—combined with her refusal to provide information her obstruction of Official Information Act requests and her refusal to provide answers to questions in a timely manner—shows a Government that is arrogant and fast getting out of touch with New Zealanders. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: The former member of Parliament for Clevedon now the MP for Papakura waited 6 long years when Labour was in Government to be allowed to go to the Ministry of Social Development buildings in Papakura because of directives from the member and her ilk. 
Hon Annette King 
: I seek leave to table a letter of complaint from me to Paula Bennett written because she failed to provide answers in a timely manner to 84 written questions. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table a letter from the member. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
John Boscawen 
: Is the Minister confident that the workload of Child Youth and Family staff will be reduced given the Prime Minister’s absolute assurance that parents will not find themselves under a full investigation from Child Youth and Family staff for lightly smacking their children? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: The member is as concerned about child abuse as I am sure every member of the House is. It is obvious that Child Youth and Family must consider any reports it receives and consider whether to investigate them further. What I might consider to be a bashing someone else might consider to be a light smack. It is important that Child Youth and Family takes a very sensible approach to the matter. 
Safety in the Home Campaign—Accident and Injury Data 
5.  
Dr JACKIE BLUE (National) 
 on behalf of  
MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) 
 to the  
Minister for ACC 
: What accident and injury data has led the Accident Compensation Corporation this week to run a high-profile campaign on improving safety in the home? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (Minister for ACC) 
: 
 There are two worrying trends in home injury data. First 573 New Zealanders died in accidents in the home last year. That is more than the 375 killed in road accidents and the 123 killed in workplace accidents combined. The campaign is intended to raise awareness of home injuries because public discussion tends to focus on those accidents on the road and in the workplace. The second worrying trend is the 36 percent increase in the last 2 years in the cost of people injured in the home which now exceeds $640 million per year. 
Dr Jackie Blue 
: What are the implications of these sharp increases in accident compensation costs for accidents in the home for the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) and for levy payers? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Home accidents are paid through the earners levy which is currently $1.70 per $100 of earnings. This increase and other increases across the scheme are putting huge pressure on the current levy. Although we can push out the full funding date to try to constrain levy increases in the work and motor vehicle accounts that has very little effect on the earners account. Earners levy increases are inevitable but the Government is doing everything possible to try to constrain costs. The campaign we are running is part of a broad strategy to better manage the scheme’s costs. 
Hon David Parker 
: How can the victims of sexual abuse receiving treatment through the scheme have any confidence that the Government is properly looking after their interests given the conflicting statements made last sitting week when firstly the Hon Pansy Wong confirmed on 25 August that there were new clinical guidelines—saying indeed this is a new guideline—and a day later the Hon Nick Smith said that no final decisions have yet been made? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: I am surprised by the linkage the member makes between home injuries and the issue of sexual offending. 
Hon David Parker 
: Where does most sexual abuse occur? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: Well they are different categories and properly so. It is a sensitive area. The Government has said that the clinical guidelines for dealing with such sensitive claims will be addressed by clinicians not by politicians. 
Hon David Parker 
: How can the Minister maintain his assertion that no final decisions have been made when ACC is already advertising for the triage clinical psychologist who will be “leading and coordinating the new triage process for sensitive claims” and will the Minister or his staff be making an urgent telephone to the corporation after question time today to find out what really is happening? 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: I say to the member that no I will not. I note that the change in dealing with sensitive claims was launched by none other than Steve Maharey now of Massey University when he was a Labour Party member of Parliament. Frankly I am surprised at members opposite stooping to the level of using sensitive sexual claims as an area in which to play politics. 
Hon David Parker 
: I seek leave to table a copy of the ACC advertisement for the triage clinical psychologist for the sensitive claims project which the Minister said has not started yet. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is none. [ 
Interruption 
] The dilemma is that I had actually said there was no objection prior to the Minister saying he did object. Therefore I had ruled on the matter. 
Hon Dr NICK SMITH 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The reason I objected is that the member in seeking the leave made an incorrect assertion at the end. That was the reason for the objection. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: We do not need to pursue this matter any further. I have dealt with it. The document can be tabled. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Health Care—Policy 
6.  
Hon RUTH DYSON (Labour—Port Hills) 
 to the  
Minister of Health 
: Does he still stand by his policy to deliver better sooner and more convenient health care? 
Hon TONY RYALL (Minister of Health) 
: 
 Despite the fact that this Government inherited $160 million worth of unfunded services to fill and that $150 million was quietly stripped from Vote Health just before the election yes I do stand by that policy. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: How can the people of New Zealand trust anything the Minister says when he initially and categorically stated in the House that he had no involvement in the review of the health sector by Government insider Murray Horn and then later that same afternoon he corrected that answer and tabled the four drafts of the same report he had commented on? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: I think members of the public can take it quite clearly that I have had ongoing and appropriate discussions with the group over the 6 months as any responsible Minister would. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: How can the people of New Zealand trust anything the Minister says when he initially declared that he had no involvement at all in the review of the health sector by Government insider Murray Horn and then he had to further correct his faulty memory because he had had dinner with the Horn review group to discuss the report? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: The member’s claims that she makes in her question would not stand up to any scrutiny. The fact is that I had quite responsible ongoing discussions with the group over a 6-month period. 
Dr Paul Hutchison 
: Can the Minister tell the House who was on the ministerial review group that delivered the comprehensive report on improving the performance and quality of the public health service? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: The ministerial review group included some of the leading clinicians and managers in the New Zealand public health sector. The Director-General of Health Stephen McKernan; Southland District Health Board Chief Medical Officer Dr Pim Allen; general practitioner and former New Zealand Medical Association president Dr Tom Marshall; former medical officer of health in Auckland and elected member of the Auckland District Health Board Dr Virginia Hope; Hutt Valley District Health Board chief executive Mr Chai Chuah; former public health nurse and executive Sally Webb; and Hauora Taranaki Primary Health Organisation chief executive Hayden Wano joined Dr Horn on that group. 
Hon Ruth Dyson 
: How can the people of New Zealand trust anything the Minister says when after forgetting all those things about the Horn report he has now asked for an additional 20 working days under the Official Information Act to compile all the input he had into this so-called independent review? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: The public of New Zealand would understand that that member has a record of misrepresenting facts and information. She stood up in the House and showed a table that indicated cuts to services and then she found out that it was actually extra money that was going into services. She is the member who stood up in the House and said that people are waiting longer but if she had used the up-to-date information it would have showed that people were waiting for shorter periods of time. People cannot believe that member. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I ask members to forgive me but I cannot hear what on earth is being called. 
Hon Pete Hodgson 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I have wanted to raise a point of order about the Minister of Health on this matter on a number of occasions and now will do so. My point of order is whether it is orderly to respond to a questioner by doubting the veracity of the question and the questioner generally. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: A point of order is being heard. 
Hon Pete Hodgson 
: In this particular case the question was whether a report into which the Minister had claimed he had no input could be believed when he took an extra 20 working days to tell us what that input was. That was the question; it was clearly political. But the response from the Minister—it has happened in the past and I am sure it will happen in the future—has been to say that he does not know whether he can trust that member’s word and he then goes on to deliver a small homily on that. Sooner or later I think that will become disorderly. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I appreciate the point the honourable member has raised and were the question exactly what the member had claimed the question to be then I might have treated the matter differently. But if the member reflects on the question asked by the Hon Ruth Dyson he will see that it was a very political question about how the public can trust anything this Minister says. Under that kind of provocation in a question I cannot help the questioner if the Minister launches back with some information that may question whether people can trust the questioner. The point raised by the honourable member certainly might under normal circumstances have some merit but I think he chose the wrong question under which to raise it. 
Te Ururoa Flavell 
: Tena koe Mr Speaker. Kia ora tatou. What efforts have been undertaken to involve Maori health providers in considering changes to the health system and what has been their reaction? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: I attended a meeting in Taupo on Friday afternoon with well over 200 Maori health providers and social service providers there. It was a meeting with the Hon Tariana Turia and we talked about the involvement that Maori can have in taking the next steps forward in improving primary health care services in New Zealand. There were well over 200 providers present. I think there is a lot of interest in developing Whanau Ora which is the new and improved way that we can provide better services for individuals and families in Maori communities. 
Building Sector—Improvement of Quality and Reduction of Bureaucracy 
7.  
CHRIS AUCHINVOLE (National—West Coast - Tasman) 
 to the  
Minister for Building and Construction 
: What is he doing to improve building quality and reduce unnecessary bureaucracy? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (Minister for Building and Construction) 
: 
 On 27 August I announced two major initiatives. The first was a release of the terms of reference for a review of the Building Act 2004 and the second was quite substantial changes to the licensed building practitioner regime. 
Hon Shane Jones 
: Labour policy. 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: No they were not Labour policy I say to Mr Jones. They were quite increased enhancements on original policy. Both of these initiatives will try to address a sector that is currently drowning in red tape and dying from over-regulation and bureaucracy. They will try to enhance quality and take away all the additional costs that the sector has been suffering from for a long time. 
Chris Auchinvole 
: What has been the response to these announcements? 
Hon MAURICE WILLIAMSON 
: I have to say it is an unusual experience for me but for the first time in relation to any announcement I have ever made over the many many years I have been an MP or a Minister no statement has been made by anybody in opposition to these announcements. The Certified Builders Association thinks this move is wonderful and said that this will be a really good step towards reducing red tape and bureaucracy. The Chief Executive Officer of the Registered Master Builders Federation Warwick Quinn said that this was a fantastic step forward in addressing issues that have been holding the industry back. Even John Gray the President of the Home Owners and Buyers Association said that this was the building blocks towards improving the standards in the industry that were long overdue. 
Police Minister—Line by Line Review Approval 
8.  
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
 to the  
Minister of Police 
: Did she approve the line by line report of 3 February 2009 prepared for her by the New Zealand Police and entitled “Value for Money and Budget 09: Line by Line Review” for submission to the Minister of Finance? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Police) 
: 
 Yes. All departments were required to conduct a line by line review of their expenditure to find savings that could be put into front-line services. The New Zealand Police line by line review yielded $14.2 million for the 2009-10 year comprising $5.5 million in actual savings made by Police National Headquarters and $8.7 million from returning funding from the previous year for depreciation of assets because the assets had yet to be built. As the member should know the New Zealand Police saved $5.5 million in its line by line review but received $182.5 million in Budget 2009 to increase the number of police. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Why did she allow a report to be submitted during the Budget process that included a proposal to make savings through “the rationalisation of housing and station numbers”? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Actually it is not my practice to stop the police from making suggestions and I have said to them that I want them to put forward ideas even ideas that I do not agree with because the Government does not want to hold the police back and politicise them which the previous Labour Government did. 
Simon Bridges 
: Has she received any other reports on reviews undertaken by the police? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Yes. I have received a report from the New Zealand Police advising that its property portfolio was reviewed in 2001 in 2006 and twice in 2007. During that time under the previous Government’s watch 37 police properties were sold. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: 37! 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Yes 37. The police property portfolio is worth $665 million. It is expected to be regularly reviewed but 37 were sold under Labour’s watch. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Why was the section of the report—specifically paragraph 30—that discussed “key areas that are likely to be considered” during the second phase of the police line by line review including the property portfolio and the vehicle fleet deliberately omitted when the paper was released on to the Treasury website? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I am not in charge of Treasury; the member should be asking me about the police. In fact the member is now confused and upset because the police have released all the documents he wanted. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The dilemma is that the question was very specific. The document has the Minister’s signature. The document that was subsequently released by the police under the Official Information Act has all the information in it. The document that the Minister submitted for Treasury to publish had direct omissions pertaining to this point. The Minister is responsible for it; it is not a matter of Treasury being responsible for it. She signed the paper she submitted it to Treasury and she took out the particular elements that were omitted and not published on the Treasury website. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I believe that the Minister from what I heard answered the question quite accurately. The paper being referred to I understand was published on the Treasury website and the Minister pointed out that she was not the responsible Minister for what Treasury might publish on a website. The paper that she has released as Minister of Police I gather contains all the information. 
David Garrett 
: Will the figure budgeted for crime investigations cited in the 3 February report referred to in the primary question be reduced as a result of the Prime Minister’s direction that the police not pursue trifling incidents of child smacking; if not why not?  
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I cannot imagine so because unfortunately people still commit crimes and we expect a very good service from the New Zealand Police for the public. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Will the Minister now that this review of police property has been exposed publicly after she had kept it off the Treasury website and therefore secret for 7 months guarantee that no operational police stations— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am being very liberal on the kind of question I allow but the Standing Orders are very specific that members should not make allegations in asking questions at all and especially when a Minister has pointed out that something is not her responsibility. For the member then in asking a question to allege that the Minister had kept something off the Treasury website is clearly not consistent with the Standing Orders. I invite the member to rephrase his question. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Will the Minister now that this review of police property has been exposed publicly after being unavailable for 7 months guarantee that no operational police stations or operational police houses will be closed or sold under this Government? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Both the Prime Minister and I have made it perfectly plain that police stations will not be sold under this Government. In fact we are actually opening another one on Friday. I say to that member who keeps popping up that 37 police properties including police houses were sold under the previous Labour Government. That member was in fact a member of Cabinet when that happened. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table a number of documents. The first is an article in which the Prime Minister is reported as refusing to rule out the selling of police houses. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Where is this article from? 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: It is a news media article; it is from the  
Dominion Post 
. [ 
Interruption 
] Well they do not like it of course. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: There will be no further comment like that and there will be no interjection. Leave is sought to table a press clipping. Is there any objection to it being tabled? There is. [ 
Interruption 
] Sorry there is no objection. [ 
Interruption 
] I hear there is objection. I beg your pardon: there is objection. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. This is exactly the same— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No this is different because I heard conflicting voices. If there is objection I must take it. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table a New Zealand Police report on its line by line review that was recently released under the Official Information Act that reveals proposals to close police stations and houses. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I take a bit of counsel on this. I think the document is incorrectly described but tabling it will sort that out. It will show that the member is quite wrong in what he is claiming. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has the right to— 
Hon Rodney Hide 
: Speaking to the point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will not hear further on this issue. These are not valid points of order. I caution the member that when describing a document he should give the greatest emphasis to detailing where the document is from rather than trying to summarise its contents because that will tend to lead to disorder. This is a release under the Official Information Act on the line by line review. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table the same document but the version that was published on the Treasury website where the references to rationalisation— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member has described the document. Again we get back into this practice of tabling documents that are readily available to the House. If it is on the Treasury website it is readily available to the House. The reason the member seeks to table it is to try to make a political point. I have to put the leave the member has sought but— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. With respect you have given a commentary on my motives. I do not believe that is appropriate. Secondly the reason the document is being tabled is that there are two versions of it one of which is the total document one of which has omissions. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I hear the member perfectly well and it is perfectly obvious to everyone that that is what the member is doing. Leave is sought to table a document that was published on the Treasury website. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I seek leave to table a speech from the previous Minister of Police Annette King in July 2008 in which it was noted that 34-plus police stations had been opened or refurbished under the Labour Government. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I seek leave to table a list of the 37 police properties sold under the Labour Government. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is— 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Stations? Houses? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Can I inquire as to the source of the document. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: It is from the New Zealand Police to me. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Point of order— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have not recognised the member. Leave is sought to table that document. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Before the leave is given— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member wants to speak to the point of order. I am not sure what issue of order he seeks my assistance with because he can refuse leave very easily. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I may not wish to refuse leave. I seek further advice from the Minister as to the nature of the document because in the past blank pieces of paper with no letterhead from departments particularly the New Zealand Police have been tabled as some sort of official document. I would simply like clarification. Is it an official document with a letterhead that has been signed by somebody as a briefing paper to the Minister? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Will the document be an official document prepared by officials? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I cannot recall whether it has a letterhead but it came from the New Zealand Police. Actually I take great objection on behalf of the police— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No we will not have a debate by way of points of order. It is my fault for allowing this in the first place. Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Senior Citizens—Government Awareness of Issues 
9.  
KATRINA SHANKS (National) 
 to the  
Minister for Senior Citizens 
: What is the Government doing to be kept informed on issues that affect older New Zealanders? 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Becoming one! 
Hon JOHN CARTER (Minister for Senior Citizens) 
: 
 Apart from reaching the age as the Minister for Senior Citizens I meet regularly with national organisations that advocate for and represent older people such as Grey Power and Age Concern New Zealand. This engagement allows me to keep up to date with issues of national importance for older people. I am also fortunate to have a group of 50 people called Volunteer Community Co-ordinators who live from Cape Reinga to the Bluff and who keep me informed on issues that affect their communities. Not only do they provide me with the opinions of older people but also they contribute to the development of policy and services that impact on senior citizens. 
Katrina Shanks 
: How does this information and policy advice assist the Government? 
Hon JOHN CARTER 
: Volunteer Community Co-ordinators recently helped the Ministry of Social Development redevelop the department’s forms that older people most frequently use and told us how it would like the ministry to deliver services to older people. However Volunteer Community Co-ordinators is not limited to its work with the Ministry of Social Development. For example it recently prepared a submission to Pharmac’s consumer advisory committee on its review of its terms of reference which the Minister of Health was very pleased to acknowledge. It also works with local district councils to promote positive ageing and is heavily involved in planning the International Day of Older Persons. 
National Land Transport Programme—Priorities 
10.  
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Transport 
: How many if any projects have had their priority downgraded in the recently announced National Land Transport Programme? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE (Minister of Transport) 
: 
 This is the first time a 3-year National Land Transport Programme has been prepared. It is therefore not possible to say that any project has been downgraded. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: Why is the Tararua district not getting its upgrade of the Pahiatua track even though it is a regional priority that ratepayers have spent $4 million preparing for and is the only alternative to the often-closed Manawatu Gorge road particularly when transporting critically ill patients from Dannevirke and Pahiatua to Palmerston North Hospital? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The New Zealand Transport Agency is charged with prioritising a huge range of projects across the country. If the member has a specific concern about a specific project then if he contacts me directly I will be happy to find out the situation. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: If the Minister has prioritised the route to the Port of Tauranga as being important for economic growth then why has Rotorua’s eastern arterial highway which has similar economic value according to the Bay of Plenty Regional Transport Committee been left off the list? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The regional transport committee prepares a set of projects and the New Zealand Transport Agency is charged with providing a national priority. In relation to the Rotorua eastern arterial highway I can advise the member that currently the New Zealand Transport Agency is completing an exercise to reconcile the information based on the assessment to date in relation to that project and also that the agency is meeting with Rotorua District Council staff in regard to a Rotorua transport strategy later this calendar year. There may quite possibly be progress on this project later in this calendar year. 
Hekia Parata 
: What investments does the National Land Transport Plan make in State highways and local roading and how will these investments contribute to New Zealand’s economic growth and productivity? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: The 2009-12 National Land Transport Plan makes an $8.7 billion investment in New Zealand’s land transport which is the largest ever. This includes investment of $4.6 billion in the State highway network $1.9 billion in local roads and just under $1 billion in key urban public transport networks. This funding will help advance many projects. Some that spring to mind include the Kopu Bridge Victoria Park the western ring route Puhoi to Wellsford the Waikato Expressway the Tauranga Eastern Link and the Christchurch Southern Motorway all of which when completed will greatly benefit economic growth and productivity as this Government works to secure a brighter future for all New Zealanders. 
Moana Mackey 
: Can the Minister confirm that he has pulled the funding for the Wainui cycleway in Gisborne because it does not meet his Government’s criterion of contributing to economic growth; if so why do cycleways that the Prime Minister announces contribute to economic growth but this cycleway which has had 4 years of planning and development and was due to be started next month does not? 
Hon STEVEN JOYCE 
: I have of course done no such thing. It is the New Zealand Transport Agency’s responsibility to prioritise projects around the country and it does prioritise them according to contributions to economic growth strategic fit and a number of other criteria. Again I repeat for members present that this is the largest programme ever and a huge number of projects have been prioritised for funding. 
Ministerial Accommodation—Proposed Allowances 
11.  
METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) 
 to the  
Minister responsible for Ministerial Services 
: Can he confirm that under his proposed new rules Government Ministers will be given a lump sum of up to $37500 a year to pay for accommodation in Wellington and will Ministers be able to pocket any of the public money they do not spend? 
Hon JOHN KEY (Minister responsible for Ministerial Services) 
: 
 In respect of the first part of the question yes but the member should note that the payment is expected to cover all the costs associated with ministerial accommodation such as rent power and other expenses. In relation to the second part of her question the member should note that the advice I received from Ministerial Services is that the average value of the current provision for ministerial accommodation is $48295 per annum so the scenario that she proposes is most unlikely as the new rates do not in most cases cover the full costs. 
Metiria Turei 
: Can the Minister guarantee to the House and to the public that none of his Ministers will pocket the extra money provided in the lump-sum payment that they do not use on their accommodation? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: No more so than I can guarantee that that member who is bulk funded for $14700 for other costs does not pocket some of that. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I am calling Metiria Turei; please show some courtesy to a colleague. 
Metiria Turei 
: Will the Minister then support a full review an independent review of Ministers’ and MPs’ allowances including the $14000 MPs’ expenses allowance— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Metiria Turei 
:—including the unlimited Ministers’ credit card allowance— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member must have seen that I am on my feet and she kept going on and ignored me. She cannot ask the Prime Minister about matters to do with members’ allowances because they are not matters the Prime Minister is responsible for; they are matters to do with the Parliamentary Service and the Prime Minister is not responsible for them. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I agree with you on that but the Prime Minister in response to the supplementary question from Metiria Turei brought that specific matter to the House’s attention by saying he could not comment or could not guarantee anything regarding members of Parliament’s allowances. At the point that he brought that material into the question time it became debatable and I think her question is within order because of the Prime Minister’s answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have to confess that that is a very good point of order from the Hon Darren Hughes. I will hear the Hon Gerry Brownlee speak to it. 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Mr Speaker I do not think that you can rule suddenly that because an answer refers to something that is outside someone’s responsibility it makes that person responsible for it. Ministers routinely answer questions about justice matters where they will use examples of situations that clearly they have no responsibility for but that serve to articulate the utter hypocrisy of the— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I do not need to hear further on this; I think that has given me time. I thank the honourable member. His point of order was very good until the last bit which was unhelpful. He will not carry on down that vein any further. In respect of this matter an interesting issue was raised by the Hon Darren Hughes. Had the Prime Minister raised matters that were not specifically related to the primary question then it would have expanded the area that he could be questioned on but the Hon Gerry Brownlee is quite right in saying it does not extend the matters the Prime Minister can be questioned on to areas outside the Prime Minister’s responsibility. One cannot question a Minister or the Prime Minister on areas outside their responsibility. It was a very interesting point of order but I must rule as I did previously that the questions must relate to the Prime Minister’s area of responsibility. 
Jeanette Fitzsimons 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. It is a slightly different point of order. The question did not ask whether the Prime Minister would initiate a review which he clearly cannot do as it is outside his area of responsibility. It asked whether he would support one. The Parliamentary Service Commission is made up of representatives from political parties; therefore in the Prime Minister’s capacity as the leader of a political party he would be in a position to support such a review if a review were initiated. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: No no—a nice try but the Prime Minister cannot be questioned on matters to do with his leadership of any political party. 
Metiria Turei 
: Does the Prime Minister know that low-income workers need to prove evidence of their actual housing costs in order to receive a supplement through Working for Families; is it not reasonable that his Ministers do the same? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: No I do not think that it is for this reason: if the member wants to go and fully read the report—I am not sure whether she has—she will find that the best people to conduct this review were those in the Ministerial Services who had at their disposal all the information. I think that by any measure the report is very fair and balanced and lays out the information. If the member goes to option 4 she will see that that option which is broadly the option we have adopted quite clearly points out that the current administration costs are $220000. The administration costs under option 4 would be cut to a maximum of $90000 and potentially to less than that. So we have looked to try to put in place a system that will be the least administratively expensive. Ministers are being given $37500 and they are free to pay rent free to buy a house and free to take a number of options as to how they house themselves. In the end that option will be administratively the simplest cleanest and cheapest way of doing that. The member will know because I am sure that she has looked closely at this issue that the $14700 each of us gets as a member of Parliament could also be if we wanted it to be a claims system. But that would require an army of bureaucrats to go and look at every single invoice. All I can tell the member is that if we look at the average here we can see that the sum of $48250 will go down to $37500 and that the vast bulk of Ministers will lose on this deal. 
Metiria Turei 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Minister has once again raised the issue of MPs as opposed to Ministers and their allowances and housing costs. I seek your advice Mr Speaker on the extent to which a supplementary question of mine which included a reference to MPs’ expenses and allowances and the content of that question could be out of order given that that matter has been raised twice now by the Minister himself—a matter for which he has no responsibility. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think that it is a very simple matter. The Prime Minister in trying to be helpful to the questioner used an example that he believed the questioner might be familiar with. It was similar: a simple payment being made versus a claims system being used. The use of that as a helpful example does not mean that the Prime Minister has expanded the area where the member can question him. The member cannot question the Prime Minister over matters to do with members’ allowances. If she wants to raise questions about that she can see the Speaker but she cannot do that through oral questions. 
Metiria Turei 
: If the Prime Minister is using as an excuse for lump-sum payments that can be pocketed the cost of dealing with receipts for actual costs from Ministers does he then agree that low-income workers who currently need to prove their actual costs would benefit and the Government itself would benefit from the savings in those administration costs if they too were provided with a lump-sum payment that they too could pocket as a supplement to Working for Families just like the system he is proposing for his Ministers? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will let the Prime Minister judge his responsibility there. 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: I have a deal for the member. She should ask what the average is for the housing supplement paid to low-income New Zealanders. She should then go and poll those people collectively to ask them whether they are prepared to accept a 25 percent reduction in what they receive on average in return for no administration costs and see the response that she gets. 
Metiria Turei 
: Why does the Prime Minister—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have called Metiria Turei. I apologise to the honourable member but I ask the front-benchers to— 
Metiria Turei 
: Why does the Prime Minister not stop making excuses for the whitewash review that he has conducted after issues around ministerial housing allowances were raised after this disclosure of MPs’ expenses and simply agree to a proper independent review of all ministerial and MPs’ allowances— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have already made it clear that the honourable member cannot question the Prime Minister about MPs’ expenses. If the member persists in that I will sit her down and cease her questioning. 
Metiria Turei 
: Why does the Prime Minister not simply support an independent review of all relevant allowances by an independent body at arm’s length from Ministerial Services so that the public can gain some confidence that the rules by which Ministers are using their allowances are clear and transparent and that Ministers are not pocketing public money that they are not entitled to? 
Hon JOHN KEY 
: All I can say to the member is firstly I sought a review in relation to ministerial housing. The status quo was a cost to the Crown of $2.377 million. By the way that was the status quo that that member when the Greens gave some support to the previous Labour Government thought was OK. Secondly this Government has taken some action and has essentially asked Ministers to reduce their spending by 25 percent. From the way that I look at it that is a hang of a lot more than any other Government has ever done. 
Mining—Prohibition in National Parks 
12.  
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister of Conservation 
: What input did he have to possible changes to the mining prohibition in national parks currently provided by schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act 1991 prior to the Minister for Energy and Resources’ announcement during his address to the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy 2009 on 26 August 2009? 
Hon KATE WILKINSON (Acting Minister of Conservation) 
: He had considerable input. 
Hon David Parker 
: Is the Minister aware that virtually all Department of Conservation land outside of national parks is not subject to a mining prohibition; and why did he not advocate for the continued protection of national parks? 
Hon KATE WILKINSON 
: The Minister is doing a great job in advocating for conservation but advocating for conservation actually means taking account of the bigger picture not merely opposing everything. We are looking at a balanced approach to balance our environmental responsibilities with economic opportunities. 
Hon David Parker 
: Why has the Government not even ruled out the mining of coal and lignite in national parks? 
Hon KATE WILKINSON 
: There is a review at the moment. Until the outcome of that review is known we will not be making decisions. I note that even the Hon Chris Carter agrees with our position in that he had to consider the environmental and wildlife effects as well as “the economic benefits that flow from the efficient development and use of New Zealand’s coal resources.” We look forward to his supporting our review as well. 
Hon David Parker 
: Given that the Minister has already adjusted the boundary of the Oteake Conservation Park to exclude the main stem of the river so as to facilitate the mining of lignite why did he think it proper to label his critics as being hysterical? 
Hon KATE WILKINSON 
: The Minister was making the very fair point that we all need to keep some perspective about the matter in hand. 
Hon David Parker 
: I seek leave to table a  
Waikato Times 
 article of 29 August in which the Minister of Conservation the Hon Tim Groser said his critics were emotional and accused them— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table a press clipping from 29 August. Is there any objection to it being tabled? Yes there is. 
Metiria Turei 
: I seek leave to table a list of the 270 protected conservation places currently listed in schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table part of an Act. Is there any—[ 
Interruption 
] I have to seek leave. I would just ask members though to— 
Metiria Turei 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My apologies; maybe I misdescribed it. It is not part of an Act; it is a list of the places that are protected under schedule 4 but those places are not listed in the Act. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I beg the honourable member’s pardon. Leave is sought to table a document— 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: Verify the document. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Members are asking me to find out where the document is from. If it is not part of the Act where is it from? 
Metiria Turei 
: The list is a generated list I understand from the Parliamentary Library of all the places—of which there are 270—described in the categories in schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I say to honourable members that a point of order was being heard. It seems the document comes from the Parliamentary Library. It is a list of places covered by that part of the Act. Is there any objection to that document being tabled? There is no objection. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Urgent Debates Declined 
SAS—Deployment to Afghanistan 
New Zealand Police—Review of Property Portfolio 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I have received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition seeking to debate under Standing Order 380 media reports of a decision by Cabinet not to accept the advice of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade on the issue of deploying Special Air Service personnel to Afghanistan. The decision to recommit SAS personnel was made last month and the House held a debate on the decision on 18 August. For there now to be a particular case of recent occurrence there must be a new situation of importance or a new development in an existing situation of sufficient importance in itself to warrant a debate being held. An urgent debate cannot be granted on the basis of media speculation. I am not persuaded that the matter warrants the House again setting aside its business. The application is therefore declined. 
I have also received a letter from the Hon Clayton Cosgrove seeking to debate the review of the New Zealand Police property portfolio. The review may well be a case of recent occurrence involving ministerial responsibility but the member has provided no authenticating material. That in itself is sufficient ground to decline an application; I refer the member to Speaker’s ruling 170/5. In addition the setting up of a review rarely justifies an urgent debate. When a review is reported there may be exceptional circumstances that will justify a debate but even then this is not always the case; I refer to Speaker’s ruling 177/1. The application is therefore also declined. 
Urgency 
Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (Leader of the House) 
: 
 I move  
That urgency be accorded the introduction and passing of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill the second reading and remaining stages of the Resource Management (Simplifying and Streamlining) Amendment Bill the introduction and first reading of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill and the second reading of the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Amendment Bill. 
The first bill that we intend to deal with under urgency today is the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and that is because of the commercial sensitivity that could exist around the issue of the guarantee of retail deposits in New Zealand. This provision has been widely supported in the past as being good for the economy in these difficult times and it is important that the legislation is passed through the House in a continuum so that commercial interests may be best protected through this mechanism. The Resource Management (Simplifying and Streamlining) Amendment Bill is a measure that is very much awaited by many people in New Zealand who have projects that may well contribute to economic growth. Therefore having the legislation in place well and truly before 1 October is a good idea. The Biosecurity Amendment Bill to be introduced today has similar aspects to it. It is important that we get that bill referred to a select committee for due consideration promptly. We want to make progress on the Student Loan Scheme (Repayment Bonus) Bill because this is the time of year when many young people are planning their futures and they need to know exactly how that loan regime will be put in place. 
I also say that it is not widely known that the House sits for only 17 hours a week. When we take out question time the general debate and quite often the overrun of question time or special debates such as were requested today we get to the situation whereby between now and Christmas the scheduled sitting days available to the House are such that we have just 115-odd hours available for the passing of legislation. That means that from time to time the Government needs to seek extended hours which is exactly what is being sought here through the provision of urgency. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That urgency be accorded. 
Ayes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill 
First Reading 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 I move  
That the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill be now read a first time. 
 I am sure the House will recall the circumstances of October last year when we faced a financial crisis on a scale not seen in New Zealand since probably the Great Depression. Despite the fact that New Zealand’s financial system was relatively sound because it had avoided many of the risky practices that triggered the financial crisis associated with the collapse of Lehman Brothers last year we are part of an interconnected world and were unable therefore to avoid the impact of a global meltdown in confidence in the financial system. One of the immediate challenges for New Zealand at the time was that the access to overseas markets that had traditionally and consistently funded our borrowing needs dried up. We were put in the position of relying on our own savings more than we had done for many years and as has often been remarked upon in the House those savings are not significant. 
The Australian Government decided at very short notice to guarantee retail deposits—that is deposits made by members of the public and by banks—and it did so alongside many other countries. The global process was started by Ireland. There was a considerable risk that New Zealand’s financial institutions could lose some of their domestic deposit base to Australia. The actions taken by the Irish Government triggered a whole raft of guarantees from Governments around the globe for precisely these reasons. At the time the New Zealand Parliament had been dissolved for the 2008 general election and the Government of the day established the existing guarantees scheme using the powers available to the Minister of Finance under the Public Finance Act 1989. This scheme provided assurance to depositors in New Zealand financial institutions during a period of great uncertainty and at a time when New Zealanders had seen pictures on TV of bank runs in the UK. 
It is good that the world’s economic and financial outlook is improving slowly and that the risks facing New Zealand’s financial system are abating. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that the sense of crisis has passed. There is still a long way to go before all the consequences of the financial meltdown work their way through. We have not returned to the benign environment that existed before the global financial meltdown. Economies are fragile and asset markets can at best be said to be stabilising but there are some asset markets where that is still not the case. The case to continue offering a Crown guarantee is finely balanced. 
The introduction of this bill recognises that non-bank deposit taking institutions are a significant feature of New Zealand’s financial system. One has only to witness the pain that has occurred for the many New Zealanders who lost deposits invested in finance companies. The country needs a non-bank finance sector that will lend to the small business that wants to buy a ditch digger. Loss of confidence in financial institutions would severely undermine the recovery that we look forward to and we cannot afford to take that risk at this time. We need certainty for financial institutions that provide vital funding and savers want certainty that investments are safe. However the Government recognises that guarantees can encourage unwarranted risk-taking among financial institutions and that guaranteeing deposits carries an ongoing economic cost. 
The Government has faced the issue of how to exit the scheme with the least cost to the economy and to taxpayers who have to pay up when a financial institution covered by the guarantee goes under and to balance this with the least disruption to the finance sector. We consider that extending the scheme from 12 October 2010 until 31 December 2011 on tighter terms is the appropriate trade-off to address the issue while still providing adequate certainty to the financial sector and those who rely on it. Accordingly the Government has introduced the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill under urgency to extend the Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme in order to provide certainty as soon as possible and to avoid undue disruption to the country’s financial system. I commend the bill to the House. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I wish to indicate from the outset that Labour will be supporting this urgent legislation the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I will provide an outline of the reasons why and particularly in the Committee stage of the debate we will provide some of the second-tier arguments that surround this issue. 
The Minister of Finance is absolutely right in his recounting of the history of the retail and wholesale guarantee schemes. Members of the House will recall with some trepidation the dark days of September and October 2008. I have a very clear recollection of the then Minister of Finance the Hon Dr Michael Cullen negotiating with the Australian Government some of the finer points of these schemes just before taking the stage to launch Labour’s election campaign. Parliament as the current Minister of Finance has said had been prorogued and it was necessary for the Minister of Finance to use the powers available to him under the Public Finance Act to implement the schemes. Crucially when the Labour Government did so in consultation with the banking and non-bank finance sectors as well as with Treasury and the Reserve Bank the then Government made clear its expectation that for major banks to participate in the very beneficial guarantees at wholesale level they would also be expected to participate at the retail level and so they did. 
The Minister is also right in his brief summary of the options available to any Government now in considering how to wind up or scale back this protection as conditions around the world have improved. Basically there are three options. Firstly a Government can go cold turkey: end the scheme as it currently stands on its current date and leave it to the financial sector to make its own adjustment. Secondly a Government can provide an unlimited extension while regularising the legislative structure as this instrument does and providing a short period under controlled circumstances of further cover. That is the approach that both National and Labour have supported. Thirdly a Government can provide the possibility of a longstanding retail deposit guarantee which is common practice in other jurisdictions. We understand that the Government is considering further work in that area and we support that but we agree with the Government that to do so in haste in these circumstances would not be good process. 
Those are the substantive reasons why we believe this policy is appropriate. It follows therefore that the legislation that Parliament is being asked to consider today is also appropriate. This is framework legislation as the Minister of Finance has said. It provides powers for the Minister and the Government to implement the type of policy; that has been said. It does not provide the explicit detail of that policy and it does not provide the fine detail of the draft deed. We will be talking some more about those policies and the details thereof in the Committee stage. 
The bottom line is that this bill is appropriate. Through it the deposits of New Zealanders will be protected and the ongoing stability of the New Zealand financial system will be assured. This bill also aligns our scheme with similar guarantees in Australia which is sensible and should be done. We would like to see some further explicit consideration of the form of permanent deposit guarantee insurance and we are encouraged by indications that the Government is so considering. 
This bill does not outline the eligibility policy; it merely provides the Minister with the authority to determine that eligibility. We have some concerns relating to the policy that is currently being drafted as was set out in broad terms by the Minister a few weeks ago. The criteria requires that companies have at least a BB credit-rating to be eligible. However some companies might not be able to obtain a sufficient credit-rating having insufficient scale to meet the requirements of the credit-rating agencies. The transaction costs of obtaining a rating could also be disproportionately high. This could cause a further shake-out in the non-bank finance sector resulting in further finance company losses or collapses taking from mum and dad investors while the big banks move in to mop up the customer base. 
It appears from the Government’s announcement of policy that the major winners in all this will once again be the major Australian banks. Those banks are able to benefit from the wholesale guarantee scheme now without being obliged or persuaded to participate in the reformulated retail scheme. The Government’s willingness to see the major banks opt out is yet another demonstration of its willingness to placate the big end of town at the expense of ordinary mum and dad New Zealanders and small businesses. Labour made it clear when it was in office that if big banks wanted the benefits of wholesale guarantees then they also needed to participate in the retail guarantee scheme. National is letting them opt out. Meanwhile the big banks are winning twice. They will pay less in fees and they will get to grow market share at the expense of smaller institutions some of which will no doubt have to rely on this guarantee or fall over. 
We have received assurances from Treasury. I appreciate the Minister’s making his officials available to us. It has been a good exercise in bipartisan consultation and we hope it is not the last. Treasury has briefed us that the fee changes that are proposed accurately reflect the risk faced by the Crown. On that basis we are prepared to accept that the charges for non-bank finance companies are probably proportionate. 
Slightly more broadly Labour is listening to New Zealanders’ concerns about the banking system. That is why Labour together with the Greens and the Progressive party launched the Parliamentary Banking Inquiry last week. The inquiry is the one that the Beehive was so desperate to stop. It required National MPs to vote against their own proposal in the Finance and Expenditure Committee and then worked to shut down participation in it. I look forward to the Minister of Finance clarifying to the House whether he his staff or other supporters made any moves whatsoever to dissuade stakeholders from making submissions on or from appearing at the banking inquiry because that is certainly the urban legend around the traps. 
National showed once again that when the chips are down it will always side with the interests of the big end of town over the needs of hard-working Kiwi businesses and families. But National could not stop the inquiry. The inquiry received around 50 submissions and a dozen substantive oral presentations at hearings including from Kiwibank and business groups like Federated Farmers the Employers and Manufacturers Association and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association. Whoever was attempting to suppress the inquiry failed. 
The key issues that emerged were strong evidence that consumers businesses and farmers are unfortunately being overcharged interest on short-term loans. It was also reiterated that there is a possible cross-subsidy of medium and long-term mortgages which could contribute to a new boom-bust housing cycle that would be no good for New Zealand. There are huge issues around the growing national debt which is now 140 percent of GDP in gross terms resulting largely from the property loans that have been expanded through the banking system. 
To conclude the banking inquiry is doing follow-up research and is due to report in late October. A high-quality report will be produced following international peer review. Labour is listening to New Zealand’s ongoing concerns about the banking system. 
Labour will be supporting this bill. We believe that it is proper to regularise the retail deposit guarantee scheme through appropriate legislation now that Parliament is in session. We agree with the broad approach the Government’s policy has foreshadowed which is to provide a time-limited extension to the scheme to match approximately the duration of that of our partner scheme in Australia. Further it is appropriate to recalculate the premia that are paid by financial institutions to more closely proxy the risk faced by the taxpayer. Where we differ in substance is that the previous Government’s policy was to ensure that the major banks participate in the retail scheme as well as at the wholesale level. It is unfortunate that the Minister has already signalled to the banking sector that that policy no longer applies. We look forward to exploring in more detail the provisions of this bill and the scheme it supports at further stages of the debate. 
CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
: 
 I rise to speak on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. Just picking up from the previous speaker David Cunliffe it is probably important to note that the extension to the scheme does not come into play until October next year and continues for about 14-odd months after that. The bill makes changes to the scheme—it tightens up the pricing and some of the criteria—and in over 1 year’s time the scheme will become voluntary. That is a sign of optimism that the worst of the financial crisis and the economic upheaval of the global financial system is over. In particular in New Zealand we have had our fair share of upheaval problems and tensions within the financial sector. 
The bill is necessary to provide some certainty in the very uncertain environment such as we have seen over the last 2-odd years. When the Hon Bill English introduced the bill he pointed to the beginnings of the crisis and how it had impacted upon New Zealand. But the good news is that possibly—just possibly—there is some light at the end of the financial tunnel. Perhaps the world is emerging from this unprecedented time of economic and financial sector upheaval and recession the likes of which we have not seen on this globe for the last 70 years—since the Depression. 
Late in 2008 the previous Government with the full support of National introduced and agreed to a retail deposit guarantee scheme. The two previous speakers pointed to the wholesale guarantee scheme but that is a totally different beast from what we are talking about here and from what this particular bill addresses. I note that the Opposition will be supporting the bill just as National supported the initial proposal way back in October 2008. I look forward to hearing the points raised by members from other parties. 
The scheme was put together in the heat of the general election campaign but also in the shadow of a similar scheme that was announced in Australia at around the same time. Very tense and strong negotiations were going on at the time. As we all know decisions and policy put together under stress and pressure do not necessarily have the best and desired outcomes. A key difference between the Australian scheme and the existing New Zealand scheme is that Australia’s scheme ends in late 2011 whereas currently the New Zealand scheme ends on 12 October 2010. The closeness of the Australian and New Zealand economies the free movement of capital between our two economies and the common stakeholders within our economies have raised many issues and placed stress on many institutions—from our largest trading banks to our smallest finance companies credit unions and building societies. By asset size the majority of New Zealand banks are mainly Australian owned but it is necessary to note that they are all incorporated here in New Zealand. They are essentially stand-alone entities under the guidance of the New Zealand Reserve Bank although most of their shareholders are in Australia. 
The bill is necessary to put the New Zealand financial system on a relatively level playing field with the one that the Australian institutions operate. As the industry has begun to repair its balance sheets as it has begun to address some of its longer-term funding issues and as it has begun to start to match the maturities of its asset and liabilities books stress has come into play and the wall of funding maturities if you like particularly for non-bank deposit takers within New Zealand as at October next year has raised a lot of issues and a lot of tension. The bill goes some way to addressing those issues but it is more reflective and considered regarding the extension because of its voluntary nature. That is of benefit not only to the Crown and the taxpayer but to the institutions themselves remembering that in the normal market prior to the financial crisis there was no deposit guarantee scheme or wholesale guarantee scheme. In a normal market these institutions will hedge and insure their own risk but with systemic events like we have had recently we need the Crown to intervene for a short period in order to address such issues. 
The scheme is voluntary. If the economy—or at least the financial system—and the ability of New Zealand institutions to raise funds come post-October next year are a lot better than they have been and are now as far as the taxpayer is concerned it would be good if those institutions felt they did not need a retail deposit guarantee scheme because the market itself would show the confidence in those institutions to not require such a scheme. 
I will pick up on a point made by the previous speaker. It is the retail deposits that are insured under the current scheme and the extended although tighter scheme proposed; it is not the institutions themselves that are insured nor their shareholders. There seems to be a bit of miscomprehension about that. New Zealand deposits that are placed with financial institutions within New Zealand are insured under the current scheme and if the institutions themselves take up this extension under the new scheme that is what will be insured. We are looking after the deposits of New Zealanders and New Zealand institutions not the shareholders of those institutions. 
I will raise a quick point. Yes underlying this there will be a better reflection on the price of any credit-type insurance of deposit guarantees and better risk management for both the depositors and of course the New Zealand taxpayer. A glance at the recent Budget and papers around it shows that about $120 billion worth of potential deposits are guaranteed under the current set of accounts. So for the sake of the taxpayer and for the sake of the institutions if we are able to reduce that down to some kind of normality it will be all the better for all concerned. Thank you Mr Assistant Speaker. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 As my colleague David Cunliffe said Labour will be supporting the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill but I will make a couple of points. The previous speaker said that deposits were being guaranteed and that is correct. But he made an assertion that companies would not benefit—that their share price or shareholders would not benefit from such a guarantee. Well I take issue with that. Of course they will. A Government guarantee around deposits generates far more stability in the nature and commercial stability of that company because by its very nature there is a Government guarantee on those deposits. Therefore it is more likely to attract shareholder support because of that stability. If there was no Government guarantee then it is open slather across the market. 
But I note a couple points. The bill does not outline the eligibility policy; it merely provides for the Minister to have the authority to determine that eligibility. We have some difficulty and concerns around that in that the criteria relating to this policy as it is currently being drafted requires companies to have at least a BB credit-rating to be eligible. The difficulty however is that some companies may not be able to obtain a sufficient credit-rating as they have insufficient scale to meet the requirements of the credit-rating agencies. Ultimately that may cause a shake-out in the non-banking sector resulting in potential further finance company collapses or losses and no one would wish that on Kiwi consumers of course. No one is willing it to happen; I think there is goodwill across both sides of the House. But the point should be made that it could result in further finance company collapses and losses for mum and dad investors while the big banks move to mop up customers. If we are not careful here we will see that the major winners of the Government’s criteria as authorised by the Minister are the Aussie banks which are able to benefit from the wholesale guarantee without being eligible to contribute to the retail scheme. 
I think the Government’s willingness to see major banks opt out is yet another demonstration of the Government’s willingness in my view to placate big business at the expense of the smaller end of town which is the mum and dad Kiwi investor. We have just had an unofficial banking inquiry that I and other colleagues from the Green Party the Progressive party and the Labour Party sat on but in which National refused to participate in a non-parliamentary sense. National refused in an official parliamentary sense to acquiesce to a request for an official parliamentary select committee inquiry into banks. Given there is a feeling perceived or otherwise by New Zealanders that they are being hurt by higher interest rates one wonders why when the official cash rate drops the drops in interest rates are not being passed on to mum and dad mortgage holders at the same rate as the official cash rate drop. 
I would have thought politics aside that was worth an official parliamentary select committee inquiry. Well National begged to differ and it said no. Then when other parties said “Let’s do it anyway and give institutions mum and dad Kiwis and those in the financial sector a chance to have their say.” National refused to participate in that process for its own reasons none of which we on this side of the House can fathom. I wager that no one in New Zealand can fathom the reason either. Perhaps only the big end of town may have an answer to why National did not proceed with an inquiry. Maybe it was the fact that National is concerned only with the big end of town. National uses the rhetoric saying that it is concerned about financial collapse that it is concerned about the stress being put on households through added expenses during a recession and indeed manifest through higher mortgage payments and higher interest payments. National says many correct things but the question is whether it follows those statements with actions. 
Although I support the guaranteeing of deposits I say that words are words and again I cannot for the life of me understand why National would not support a basic select committee inquiry which I think had the goodwill—and still has the goodwill—of almost all sides of the House apart from National to inquire. 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: They know best. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: My colleague says that National knows best—maybe maybe not. If it turned out that the perceptions of mum and dad Kiwis were not correct that would be a good thing to shed some light on. But we are left with an inquiry that this side of the House will report on which I think had some very very good contributions from the likes of Kiwibank from economists and from other folks in the financial sector. It is interesting to note that the big end of town is a bit like the political big end of town over there the National Government very coincidently. The banks and National would not participate; they would not have a bar of it. We then must ask why. 
I say with caution that I support this legislation. But I wonder whether the Government has asked the banks and commanded the highest possible price or enough of a contribution shall we say from the banks in how they act within our commerce. There are other institutions that provide very very good financial services that because of size will not be able to gain the BB credit-rating that is required and may well then be seen to be unstable because they are not covered by this guarantee. As a consequence they have flight of capital out and therefore they could collapse. Again who is the beneficiary of that? The big end of town that National supports will then have the ability to mop up what is left after the dust and shrapnel have settled. The losers of course are the mum and dad investors who are caught in the middle and cannot participate. I say to National members that we support the legislation but I ask them to reflect on that. Maybe they will give us a reason today as to why they could not bring themselves to cross the political threshold—at no cost to themselves we believe but who knows maybe there was—and participate in but not necessarily support the outcomes of a non-partisan banking inquiry. If they had all the answers they could ask the institutions probe the institutions probe the great minds and economists in New Zealand and debate with them and tease out the issues that pertain to this debate. But it was left to colleagues in the Green Party the Progressive party and the Labour Party to have that discussion and I think the participation was very very profitable. I think people saw it as a goodwill exercise. 
Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga 
: Good on ya. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
: The councillor and member of Parliament on the other side of the House says “Good on ya.” I am not sure whether the Auckland City Council or the taxpayer is clipping the ticket at the moment as he double-dips over there. I thank the member for the compliment but saying “Good on ya.” does not do anything to meet the issues and alleviate the problems that people in the market place are feeling because of the behaviour of some banks. It is a simple question to ask— 
Hon Member 
: Sit down now! 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE 
—even for that member’s limited capacity. Why are banks not passing on those interest rates with the swiftness of their Australian counterparts? I leave that question sadly unanswered because that member and his ilk would not participate in an inquiry. It is sad I think that when we have these odd moments of non-partisanship or bipartisanship—or “tripartisanship” if we include the ACT Party—certain parties the tired old ones over there revert to type and draw the shades across drop the trapdoor and say no. The losers in that of course are the people who would like the questions answered. They are the mum and dad Kiwis with the big mortgages. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I stand to speak on behalf of the Green Party. The Green Party will be supporting the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. We think that it is a very sensible thing to have a time-limited extension of the retail deposit guarantee scheme; in fact it is essential. It is essential to maintain confidence in the banking sector. Over time I hope we can see the end of this scheme and I am sure that we will. 
The framework for this whole bill and the current situation we find ourselves in is the international financial crisis which put the New Zealand banking sector along with the entire global banking sector in the position where the taxpayer had to come to the rescue of the banks. All around the world taxpayers had to come to the rescue of the banking and financial sector for the simple reason that the banks and the financial sector were too big to fail. It was simply impossible for us to contemplate having a major failure in the New Zealand banking sector because the impact of that on the New Zealand economy would have been very very significant and very negative. 
We had little choice I believe but to introduce the retail deposit guarantee scheme when it was introduced in the lead-up to the election and over time to slowly wean ourselves off it. This legislation is a step in that direction and I think it is good. However I think we need to look a little more broadly. Although this is a fine thing to do it is really a band-aid to deal with a larger problem. 
One of the interesting things that came out of the banking inquiry was that we need to have a broader discussion and debate about the banking sector in New Zealand and about monetary policy. For me one of the key things that came out of the discussion was that it is all very well to have bills like this in order to maintain the stability of the banking system in a crisis but the overall stability of the banking system in New Zealand and the New Zealand economy has much larger problems than something that a short-term retail deposit guarantee scheme can fix up. That really cuts to the chase about monetary policy and the impact of monetary policy on the New Zealand economy. 
We have relied on the official cash rate as our tool for monetary policy for many years now—for a couple of decades—and I think that now in the midst of a global economic crisis surely is the time when we have the space to rethink whether relying on the official cash rate as our only mechanism for monetary policy is sufficient. 
To look at that matter we have to look at the problems that we have got ourselves into with the official cash rate. One of the key issues that has developed is that as the official cash rate has gone up we have attracted large amounts of capital into New Zealand. Foreign capital has flooded into New Zealand via the banking sector and has then been passed on to the housing market. It has been drawn into New Zealand because our relative interest rates have been much higher than in other places. It made a lot of sense for overseas investors to send their billions of dollars to New Zealand because it was a safe place where they could get a good rate of return. However the impact on New Zealand was that the banks simply passed that money on to what they thought was the safest way to get a good return on their money which was the housing sector. 
The housing asset bubble has been one of the key problems for the New Zealand economy and in the long run it is one of the key challenges for the New Zealand banking system as well. The asset inflation in the housing market presents a long-term structural problem to the New Zealand economy in a number of ways. 
The fact that all this hot money was coming into New Zealand means that we have an overvalued exchange rate. The overvalued exchange rate has meant that the New Zealand tradable sector has been in recession now for 5 years. It is one of the key contributing factors. The overvalued exchange rate driven by the high official cash rate and high relative interest rates has meant that the tradable sector in New Zealand has suffered. New Zealand manufacturers try to compete with imports and it is harder for New Zealand exporters trying to compete overseas. That has been one of the key impacts and as a small trading nation New Zealand cannot afford to have a long-term recession in our tradable sector. 
The second part of it is that as the money has come in our level of overseas debt has now got to a very high level. Our net international investment position is now minus 100 percent of GDP. We are second only to Iceland in the OECD in terms of our net international investment position. That is not sustainable. We are adding billions and billions of dollars in overseas debt year after year and in the long run that will undermine the New Zealand banking sector if we do not address our overseas indebtedness. The interest payments alone on our debt are greater now than our trade surplus. We had a very small trade surplus in the last quarter but largely we have had a trade deficit. We are borrowing money to pay the interest payments on our overseas debt. 
Another part of it is that as the housing sector received more and more money through the banks which was borrowed from overseas and drawn in by the high official cash rate we had inflation driven by the housing sector. People felt wealthier and they spent more money because the value of their housing kept going up and up. We had inflation. The official cash rate was meant to be dealing with inflation but in fact it was encouraging inflation until it reached such a high point that it crushed the whole economy. 
High interest rates had a detrimental effect on the productive sector of the economy. It was difficult for businesses to borrow money because they had the high interest rates that the Reserve Bank was trying to use to crush inflation. All of these things together had a very negative impact on the New Zealand economy and ultimately a very negative impact on the stability of the New Zealand banking system. 
We need to say that the official cash rate by itself does not work to maintain the stability of the New Zealand banking system. It does not suit the New Zealand economy in the long run to rely on this tool so we have to look at some alternatives and we need to put those alternatives on the table. Some of those alternatives are around trying to control the demand for investment properties—that is a capital gains tax excluding the family home. We have to start having a serious discussion about that. 
We also have to look at ring-fencing the losses on investment properties. Whether that is done through loss attributing qualifying companies or other forms we need to ring-fence those losses. We need to target the demand for investment properties in order to try to keep control of the housing sector. We must remember that median house prices doubled between 2002 and 2007. That rate is not sustainable. It was funded by borrowed money that we now have to pay back as a nation. On the other side of housing we need to make sure that we have more of a supply of housing particularly social housing and affordable housing. 
In terms of maintaining the stability of the banking system—which this bill is trying to address but we need other mechanisms as well—we need to look at increasing reserve ratios for bank lending into the housing market. We need to target the problem directly. It is very difficult for the Reserve Bank to suppress inflation across the whole economy by trying to use official cash rates and interest rates when the key driver of that inflation is the housing market. We know that the tools are available for us to address that situation. One of the tools is that for every dollar that banks loan into the housing market we can insist that they leave a certain percentage on deposit at the Reserve Bank or held in reserve by the bank. Effectively that makes it harder for the banks to loan more and more money into the housing market. 
If we want to target the source of inflation then rather than crush the entire productive sector of the economy and make it hard for every business in the country we should target the source of the problem which is what is coming out of the housing sector. The housing sector has remained flat now for some time and it looks like it will continue to move sideways but if there is any indication that we are going back to another housing asset bubble then the Government has a responsibility to act quickly to deal with that. We know the ways to do that. We have the tools available but we have to expand our imagination beyond the official cash rate. By itself it is simply not enough. 
We have a range of tools that we can use to address one of the key drivers of inflation in our economy—which is what is coming out of the housing sector—without destroying the entire tradable sector and without destroying the entire productive sector of the New Zealand economy. We need to make it easy to be a manufacturer in New Zealand. If we are serious about stabilising our economy which is out of control then we have to make it easy to be a manufacturer in our country. We have out-of-control levels of debt which is a major problem and eventually that will impact on the banking sector. We can only stabilise the economy if we have the courage to face up to one of the key problems in the New Zealand economy right now and a key problem over a number of years—that is the funnelling of billions and billions of dollars of borrowed money from overseas into the housing market. 
Although I commend the Government for introducing this bill which the Greens will support I say the Government needs to think beyond current monetary policy. It is a pity the Government was not involved in the banking inquiry because some of the debate actually happened there. It is the debate that our country needs to have if it is to right itself economically and if it is to have a prosperous and sustainable future. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) 
: 
 It is a pleasure to stand on behalf of the ACT Party to take a call on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. The ACT Party it would seem is the only party that is prepared to stand up and represent those 87 percent of people who voted No in the last referendum. ACT is the “87 Percent Party”. 
Hon Tariana Turia 
: What has that got to do with the bill? 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: It has a lot to do with it because we have heard comments this afternoon about “listening”. 
I have been listening very carefully to the debate and the first comments I would like to debunk are the comments of Clayton Cosgrove. In fact Clayton Cosgrove Russel Norman and David Cunliffe talked about the banking inquiry but had Clayton Cosgrove been a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee had he taken a closer interest in its deliberations and the issues the select committee had been discussing and had he read some of the press releases of his own finance spokesperson Mr Cunliffe then he would have heard that the only concern was the rate of interest on floating loans. There was no argument whatsoever that the cost of borrowing long term was in any way outside the normal margins that banks should charge; the only argument ever if there was an argument was the concern about margins on floating rates. 
In evidence the committee was told that had the Government just left things as they were had it waited and continued to apply pressure to the banks that issue may well have been addressed in the course of normal market operations. We saw evidence of that last week when one of the big Australian banks moved to reduce its margins by 40 percent on floating rates. Mr Cosgrove has turned up at Parliament and talked as though he has some knowledge of the banking inquiry and what it was required to achieve but the reduction in floating rate margins would have been achieved without the Opposition’s so-called banking inquiry. 
I listened with great interest to the speakers prior to me—the Hon Bill English the Hon David Cunliffe Craig Foss Clayton Cosgrove and Russel Norman. 
Paul Quinn 
: Quite a list! 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: What a list! There is one thing that those people have in common and I wonder whether members can think what it is. I will tell them. 
Craig Foss 
: I have nothing in common with Clayton Cosgrove. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: The member does have something in common with Mr Cosgrove because the member—like Mr Cosgrove Mr English Mr Cunliffe and Mr Norman—came to Parliament and achieved fewer votes in the general election than did constituents who voted No in his Tukituki electorate in respect of the referendum. Mr Foss may smile but that is a very serious issue. The last five speakers stood for electorates and received fewer votes than the number of their constituents who voted No in the last referendum. The members in this Parliament may not like hearing that fact but let me say to them and to members on all sides of the House that they will continue to hear that comment from the ACT Party because the ACT Party is prepared to stand up and speak for the 87 percent who voted No. 
Hon Tariana Turia 
: Ask the right question. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: There were 87 percent of them. [ 
Interruption 
] I am hearing interjections from the Hon Tariana Turia and I give the member credit because she is just one of 14 MPs in this House who received more votes in her constituency than had constituents vote No in the recent referendum. She is just one of 14 members. We have 122 members in this House and 108 received fewer votes in the general election than had constituents who voted No. Of those 14 four are Maori Party MPs. 
Let us look at some of the things Mr Cosgrove said. He was frustrated by the fact that the National Party would not participate in the Opposition’s shadow banking inquiry. He thought that politics aside they would have listened to the people. He could not understand why National would not support an inquiry. Well I cannot understand why Mr Cosgrove and his colleagues will not listen to that 87 percent. 
Last night I held a public meeting in Mount Roskill and I deliberately chose Mount Roskill because that is the electorate of the Leader of the Opposition. Like those five previous speakers whom I have mentioned Mr Goff also scored fewer votes in the 2008 general election than the No votes in the referendum. But if Mr Cosgrove wants to lecture this House on the subject of listening I will give him an opportunity. 
Paul Quinn 
: Are you campaigning already? 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: I will come back to that. I intend to hold a similar meeting to the one I held last night in Mr Cosgrove’s Waimakariri electorate. 
Hon Tariana Turia 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I would like you to ask the member to stay with the bill not to talk about hitting children. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: The member makes a fair point. The member is entitled to make indirect references but he has become rather repetitious. I draw the member back to the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and ask him to focus on that. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: Thank you Mr Assistant Speaker. I am more than happy to do that because I have made the points I wanted to make. I might add that I intend to continue to make them. 
The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Rick Barker) 
: When the Speaker has ruled the member does not refer to the ruling. I invited the member to continue on the bill and that is why I offer the member that option to do so. If he does not wish to do so then I will discontinue his presentation to the House. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: Thank you Mr Assistant Speaker. I should have made myself very clear. When I said I would continue I meant continue in the future and in future debates and in future sittings of the House. I certainly was not intending to challenge your ruling and I am sorry that the way I said that may have presented that opinion. 
I do intend to talk about the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. This scheme was introduced at a time when the world was in turmoil as Mr English said. We had seen the collapse of Lehman Brothers we had seen the collapse of a number of major international banks and we had seen a time of financial turmoil like nothing in living memory; certainly for most members of this House and I think Mr English referred to the fact it is like nothing since the 1930s Depression. Clearly action was required and that action followed immediately after the action of the Australian Government. Of course the Australian Government and other Governments followed the initial action by the Irish Government. There is no way that the previous Labour Government had the option of not pursuing what was happening around the world and following those actions. 
One of the issues that overhung the market for financial deposits in recent months is how the country actually moves away from this deposit guarantee scheme—how it trades out of it. A system is being presented in the bill that enables the guarantee to be extended. It will be on tighter terms and the fees and charges made by the taxpayer will be market-driven. Sadly there will be losses. I expect there will be losses. Smaller companies will not be able to meet the requirement for a BB grading. They I suspect will be forced to call in the receivers. Their depositors who have loans that would otherwise be in default prior to October next year can be paid out in full. But undoubtedly those companies will also have depositors who have advanced those deposit-taking companies’ funds beyond October 2010 and those funds will not be guaranteed. Clearly they will not be paid out by the taxpayer so there will be losses for those bondholders. The Government is damned if it does and damned if it does not. If it simply decides to suspend the scheme and not allow it to continue beyond October next year I suspect many more finance companies will go into receivership and the cost to the Crown will be even greater. 
I commented earlier on speeches made by Mr Cunliffe and Mr Cosgrove on the banking inquiry. They used this opportunity to talk about the evidence submitted to the banking inquiry. One of the reasons this bill was needed was the worldwide collapse of confidence. We also had a collapse of confidence in our own market. Earlier this year I called for an inquiry at Commerce Committee level into finance company collapses and I am very pleased to say that last month the Commerce Committee chairperson the Hon Lianne Dalziel announced that the committee would be having an inquiry. I am very grateful to the National members of that committee and to the Maori Party member of the committee for their support. 
Hon TARIANA TURIA (Co-Leader—Maori Party) 
: 
 Tena koe Mr Assistant Speaker. Tena tatou katoa. This is a very good time to be introducing certainty into any discussion about the retail deposit guarantee scheme. In the space of 24 hours three surveys have been released that provide us with confidence about the possible scenarios in which the proposed legislation will be received. The first survey is the New Zealand Roy Morgan consumer confidence rating survey. This survey shows that confidence has risen to its highest level in early September since March 2008 which was the first quarter in which New Zealand entered its recession. One of the clearest indicators of confidence arising from the Roy Morgan survey was the finding that 43 percent of the respondents said they thought that now was a great time to buy major household items. That is an increase of 6 percent from the previous survey. 
The next survey was from UMR Research which has been following public attitudes on the global crisis. It found that 61 percent of people were concerned about the impact of the crisis on New Zealand’s economy. That may still sound significant—and it is at the very least cautious—but it is also a big gap compared with the figure of 72 percent of those questioned 2 months earlier. Another dramatic finding from UMR Research was that the numbers of New Zealanders who believed that the crisis had impacted adversely on standards of living had fallen from 54 percent in June to 48 percent in August which is the lowest level of concern since October 2008. 
The third in the line but in no way the least was a survey conducted by a parenting website of over 500 families. In that survey one-third of families had changed their dinner habits as a result of the economic downturn. The website’s online community revealed that there was considerable synergy around participants’ desire to save money in an economic downturn. So ways of old suddenly turned gold and people began bulk buying when items were on special and freezing supplies for future use particularly meat. Name brands were being overlooked in preference for the plain-packaged model fish and some premium cuts of meat were making it to the table less frequently and bargains were filling the supermarket trolleys as shoppers planned around catalogue-advertised specials. These may not appear to be “breaking news” findings but they demonstrate the fundamental change that many households have taken on in their attempts to introduce certainty. 
In this context then the Maori Party is pleased to welcome the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill which at its very essence is about creating certainty and stability in the banking and finance sector. Many New Zealanders will breathe a collective sigh of relief in learning about this deposit guarantee scheme and about a bill that would probably better be described as the “about time” bill. New Zealand individuals businesses and investors will be saying that it is about time they can benefit from a form of insurance that basically ensures continuing depositor confidence in New Zealand given international financial market turbulence. 
We are all aware that markets are hungry for certainty given the circumstances of the downturn. The concern has been about the future of the guarantee and it is simple enough to understand why: a scheme that guarantees approximately $128 billion of deposits and approximately 3.5 million deposit accounts is a sizable investment by anyone’s estimation. The legislation we are addressing today and will be addressing under urgency is about ensuring that the whole Parliament is accountable for the decision to extend the scheme and to better manage Crown risk. 
The focus of this bill then is to extend the scheme by 14 months until 31 December 2011. The legislation has been described as being more or less the transition path back to normality. Normality we assume will be when we actually exit from this scheme to exist in a normal business environment with all the attendant risks. A permanent guarantees scheme is not desirable because it underprices risk and leads to increased risk-taking. 
What this bill does is put in place a vital stopgap measure to help maintain confidence in New Zealand’s financial institutions. The measure bears a direct relationship to the collapse of several major banks in the United Kingdom United States Ireland and other countries. As banks collapsed Governments were called on to bail out those institutions in an effort to create a sense of global comfort about the health of the financial system. As we all know however the collapse of those major banking institutions had a ripple effect in terms of setting up other concerns that other banks may also collapse. This was domino territory given the possibility that the original banking collapse would provoke further collapses and in turn depositors would cease depositing or even try to withdraw their deposits en masse before their own banks collapsed. The effect was such that the volatility in one area could have sent more banks under and further destabilised the financial system. In many ways we had little alternative but to also play our part in creating stability in our own financial institutions and even though our banking system had been seen as stable up until that point there was always the fear that as the rest of the world adopted retail deposit schemes to provide a type of insurance for depositors if we did not also introduce such a scheme depositors might withdraw from our shores to invest in a country that did have a guarantee. 
We welcome this extension to the retail deposit guarantee scheme. We think it balances the imperative for certainty for investors in financial institutions while taking into account the impact for taxpayers and we will therefore support the bill. But it would be remiss of us not to table two significant concerns. The first is that it was entirely unsatisfactory that it was not until this morning that we had actually laid our eyes on this bill. It appears unfathomable that such a significant investment in financial stability was presented to Parliament at the eleventh hour. 
The second concern emerges from the fact that part of the new terms and conditions will mean that depositors will need to reapply to the scheme. Roll over is not automatic and it is voluntary. However details of the terms and conditions of eligibility will not be released until next week. Knowledge of the details in sufficient time to consider let alone consult our constituency is a principle that we take very seriously when we look at any legislation that comes before the House. It was therefore very disappointing to be prevented from taking on a full and robust process in regard to this extension of the retail deposit guarantee. Kia ora. 
AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn) 
: 
 The discussion on this bill this afternoon takes us back to the period in the second half of 2008 when amongst other things we had the collapse of Lehman Brothers which is now really hitting home when we see the extent of the debts involved. We are looking at over US$613 billion which is nearly NZ$900 billion of debt by what was assumed to be one of the safest and largest financial institutions. In some ways that was the catalyst that drove the world to understand that it was facing an economic typhoon. 
The sense of crisis and indeed panic really started to pick up momentum and Governments had to act and act quickly to ensure that they were not all caught up in this particular set of circumstances. At that time our own Parliament had been dissolved for the general election. We were between Parliaments. The last Government acted under the Public Finance Act and it used the powers in that Act to ensure that retail and wholesale guarantees were put in place to ensure that confidence could be maintained in our banking system which the National Party certainly supported. It was the necessary thing to do and it was in line with what other countries in the world were doing. 
Now it is time to look at that scheme with its expiry looming in October of next year. I say “looming” because although that is still more than a year off in financial terms and looking at retail deposits this is exactly the sort of time when people are planning long-term deposits in institutions. In fact the period between now and then is quite a short term. So we find ourselves in a situation where it is a matter of some urgency to address the date when that deposit scheme will end—and whether it will end—and to put in place under primary legislation a properly formulated deposit scheme that can continue to ensure that we have the necessary confidence in our financial markets while we see the fragile recovery the economy is now going through continue and gain in its stability and strength. 
This guarantee was always about and continues to be about providing security in a period of great uncertainty. It is not a long-term position and I think there is clear consensus on that point. There is no view at all that a guarantee from the Government on retail deposits is a long-term position to be in. It is certainly pleasing to see consensus from across the House on the subject matter of the bill but the question we have to turn our mind to is not whether it is appropriate to have this guarantee but rather when the guarantee should end and how it should be removed in a manner that does not undo all the good work that the scheme has done in ensuring consumer confidence. 
We have seen particularly in the last month and even in the last few days some early signs of recovery in the economy but I think it would be a very brave economist who would be prepared to stand up now and say that the troubles are all behind us. In my own view I think that the beginnings of the recovery are certainly there but it is a fragile thing and it could be easily derailed. There is very much a need to ensure that confidence and stability in the financial markets are maintained. This scheme is no small part of that. We are talking about $120 billion of deposits guaranteed through 73 institutions. 
But more than just providing some security and peace of mind to individual depositors—mum and dad depositors and small businesses alike—the scheme has been important in a number of other important but perhaps less obvious ways. It encourages savings. We know that one of the big issues in our economy is that we do not save enough. Certainly if there is not a sense of security in our financial institutions we can be sure that saving will get worse. So that is an important part. 
Equally though I think it is worth touching on the fact that the $120 billion that is guaranteed is not just sitting there waiting for someone to collect it. It is providing the funding and the liquidity that our businesses need to keep going through this recession. That directly leads to jobs and growth. So this is about more than simply providing a guarantee. It is about ensuring that the liquidity tap is not turned off and that our economy can keep functioning. That money is working hard for our economy while it is in those institutions. 
The other thing it does is enable us to preserve a second tier of lending institutions which is an important part of our financial markets. Not every borrower can access first-tier bank funds and the second tier plays an important role. Equally I think that anyone looking at the financial situation would agree that one of the reasons New Zealand has been able to avoid the worst of the recession that other countries have seen is that we do have a stable banking and financial sector. Steps that maintain that and encourage people to continue to have faith in our banking sector are certainly important. 
As my colleague Mr Foss has already mentioned this scheme in New Zealand mirrored what was happening in many other parts of the world and through the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill we are now seeing the end date of our own scheme coming into line with that already in place in Australia. Of course extending the term of the scheme does without question extend the period of risk. This is not something that we brush over or take lightly but the altered terms and conditions that we will see under this new scheme which will take effect immediately the old scheme expires will go some way to reducing that risk. I think the point to bear in mind though is that overall the risk to our economy of not having our retail deposits guaranteed while the recovery gains momentum is a far greater risk for this country than the risk we bear through extending it. 
The final point I would like to make in this first reading contribution is just to point out that the bill if passed will come into force immediately it receives Royal assent thereby creating immediate certainty into the market. As I have said the uncertainty around when the scheme will end is already causing uncertainty in terms of long-term planning decisions. Therefore we are aiming to give immediate certainty to that market which will allow people to start to make long-term decisions that extend beyond October of next year. Thank you. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I endorse many of the comments made by the previous speaker. I would though like to explore one of the reasons why we need to eventually wean ourselves off guarantees such as these. They do create distortions within the finance markets. 
There is a notable exception to the guarantees that have been offered here in the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and that relates to collective investment vehicles. Sometimes there are subtle distinctions only between collective investment vehicles and traditional savings institutions. For example some of the group investment funds that have been traditionally run by trustee companies and some of the unit trusts that have been mortgage-backed whereby the money has been invested by ma and pa ordinary New Zealanders in a unit trust through a unit trust or a group investment vehicle have been invested in first mortgages over land. These are not any riskier than finance company investments. Indeed they are less risky because the owners of the funds who are investing them in unit trusts and group investment funds effectively have a trust interest in first mortgages over land. 
So those funds are effectively investing in something that is secured by a first mortgage yet because of the terms of this guarantee scheme—and I am not criticising it for this; I am just making an observation about the distortion it creates—and the structure of that investment they are not eligible for the guarantee. As a consequence we have seen some pressure on those sorts of funds. There has been a run on those funds caused by withdrawals from those schemes which are safer than most finance company investments but for the guarantee. So the presence of a Crown guarantee has made a finance company investment safer than an investment that has been backed by a first mortgage. That is the sort of distortion that can be caused by guarantees of this nature. 
Unfortunately when there is a need for these sorts of guarantees there is no way of avoiding all of the distortions at the margin other than by increasing the scope of the scheme in a way that would involve some investments that ought not to be guaranteed. For example if someone was investing in a share portfolio I do not think that New Zealanders would think that the Crown should guarantee returns on that sort of investment and that is another collective investment that one might make through a superannuation scheme or indeed a unit trust or a group investment fund. So the point I am making is that guarantee schemes such as this one introduce complexity at the margin. That is impossible to avoid if we are to have a scheme but it none the less points out that it may well be desirable to bring the scheme to an end eventually. 
I also make the point that in future I think we need to be very careful about focusing only on credit ratings. Credit ratings or high credit-ratings are the key to the fee that is paid by an institution that is getting a guarantee. A finance company with a low credit-rating has to pay a higher fee for a guarantee. That of course is as it should be. For a bank with a good credit-rating the fee that it has to pay for the guarantee is less than it would otherwise be because the risk that the Crown is taking is less. But if we look behind that at other New Zealand - owned institutions like some building societies and credit unions we see that some of these organisations are quite small because we have a small economy and that they will never have a high credit-rating. If we persist with this sort of charging mechanism we are saying effectively that we prefer the interests of overseas-owned banks against the interests of smaller New Zealand - owned institutions. I suggest that that is true because no New Zealand - owned institution can get the high credit-rating that entitles it to the lower fee structure. I think that is another distortion that this guarantee scheme throws up. I for one am very cautious about saying we should have these sorts of schemes long term because I think they introduce distortions between participants in the finance market. 
The last speaker Amy Adams also made reference to the fact that we need to have more than just the banking sector; we need to have sources of secondary finance. Again I agree with that. It is absolutely imperative that an economy such as New Zealand’s is not reliant on just top-tier banks. It is good that we have a stable banking system but the New Zealand system should be no more reliant on only 4 or 5 banks than would be wanted for any other jurisdiction overseas. New Zealand’s reliance on the big four banks is already extreme in my view and I would not want to have a guarantee scheme that further entrenches the advantages that the banks have at the effective market-share cost of New Zealand - owned financial institutions. Again it is an area where we need to take care. I do support the scheme but a member David Bennett from the National Government is shaking his head ignoring the reality that one of New Zealand’s problems is the size of the foreign-owned New Zealand banks’ repatriation of profits and the interest that they pay on their overseas loan books to overseas jurisdictions. 
David Bennett 
: You have no idea mate! No idea. 
Hon DAVID PARKER 
: No idea—well actually I do; I come from this industry. So problems arise from preferring the big end of town. 
One of the areas that I think my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe has already mentioned is that until now the guarantee or the ability to pick up the retail guarantee which is the guarantee that small New Zealand investors get when they invest with a bank was linked with the wholesale bank guarantee scheme which is separate from the scheme that is being discussed in this bill. The wholesale guarantee scheme relates to the big loans that banks get from their overseas lenders. So if an international bank or international fund of some kind—it might be a sovereign fund—was lending money to say the Bank of New Zealand or any other bank then the Bank of New Zealand or the other bank would have been reliant on a guarantee of those wholesale funds. The previous Government made it clear that if banks wanted to pick up the advantage of the wholesale guarantee they needed to take up the guarantee in respect of ma and pa investors and their New Zealand investments through the retail deposits scheme. 
Why is that important? Well if we do not do that what could happen if in the worst case a bank fails—and the only time the guarantee would become relevant is if a bank fails in the case of a bank guarantee—is that the overseas lender to the New Zealand banks would be effectively guaranteed by the taxpayer and that overseas shareholder would be paid out but the New Zealand - based retail investor would not necessarily be guaranteed because there is no requirement now for New Zealand banks to take the retail guarantee if they take the wholesale guarantee. I would encourage the Government to look at that area again because I think we should have consistency there. 
Having said that I do not see any effective choice but for us to continue with the guarantee scheme at this time. I do point out the distortionary effects of it and I do point out my concerns that as designed the scheme is to the effective benefit of the big end of town—the big banks. It is more costly for the smaller New Zealand institutions and I think that should be addressed. It could be addressed through the fees structure. Let us take for example building societies. Building societies are generally very stable institutions; their loan portfolios are generally of first mortgages over land. They might not have the triple A rating that a bank has but none the less their loan portfolios are probably more secure than some banks’ loan portfolios. To illustrate that I say that if a building society falls over and becomes insolvent it effectively has loans secured over land generally first mortgages over land in respect of all of its advances. So the most that could be lost would be a proportion of the amount that the building society has borrowed from investors and then lent out to mortgagors. However a bank could fail because it has lent to high multiples. Banks sometimes lend to twelve times their equity so they could have a percentage decrease in the value of their loan portfolio that means that depositors lose all of their money rather than a fraction of it. I mention those complexities but I am happy to support this bill. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 The Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill is a reflection of the economic circumstance that New Zealand has reached at this stage of the recession with the country coming out of the recession and many of our trading partners starting to see a glimmer of hope. Some of the requirements and Government approaches that were endorsed by this Parliament late last year now need to be revisited and looked at in the sense of taking into account the more updated economic situation that is arising at this point. 
Before we look into that a bit more I think it is time for a few home truths to be told to the New Zealand public through this House rather than have what the Labour Party has been espousing by its lines of the day. When we look at what has happened in New Zealand and we compare ourselves with some of our major trading partners we see that the single advantage we had over those trading partners is a stable banking system. We did not see the New Zealand Parliament having to pass legislation to buy back the banks. We saw our major trading partners—apart from Australia—having to do so. What saved us and what saved our bacon to a large extent was the four Australian banks being solid strong and able to look after the New Zealand economy. 
Those members on the other side of the House will never admit that because they hate to admit that those banks have been strong and stable. They will go out there and try to put to the public of New Zealand some perception that the Aussie banks ripped off the New Zealand economy but the reality is that we would not be coming out of this recession in the way we are if it were not for the four Aussie banks. I think that Labour members need to grow up smell the roses and work out that this is how the banking system works. 
If we want to have in a country at the bottom of the world small banks owned by a Government that thinks it will deliver the financial system our trading country needs then we are dreaming. We saw that in the late 1980s when the New Zealand banking system was not able to withstand international pressure. But this time when we had international pressure we were able to withstand it. That is a big lesson for Labour members which they have not learnt and will not admit to. That is a shame because those members in failing to admit that lesson are denying the truth of the financial markets that exist in New Zealand. 
That is not to say that we do not have a robust financial system with different tiers of debt in which other organisations can come in and take over different levels. But certainly the vast bulk of New Zealand’s banking system is dominated by the four big Australian banks which have provided the solidity for us to get through the recession. 
This retail deposit guarantee scheme is a reflection of the financial circumstance that we now find ourselves in where we do not need as much regulation and support as we previously had so we are giving banks the option of having less of that requirement or back-up. This is very much the same as has been happening in Australia as well and reflects the change in those economies in the last 6 months as we have seen some green light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you. 
STUART NASH (Labour) 
: 
 That was a very interesting speech I say to Mr Bennett. I am not too sure what it was about or what it tried to prove—it did not say much at all. Anyway I rise to support the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. Let me give a little bit of background. On 12 October 2008 the then Minister of Finance Dr Michael Cullen announced that using powers under the Public Finance Act the Government was to introduce an opt-in retail deposit guarantee scheme. This was on the heels of a very similar scheme announced by the Australian Government—a Labor Government—I believe the previous day. 
At the time Dr Cullen announced that the scheme would cover all retail deposits in participating New Zealand - registered banks and retail deposits by locals in non-bank deposit taking entities. These included building societies credit unions and deposit-taking finance companies. The deposit guarantee scheme did not include related party liabilities and the initial scheme was free for institutions with total retail deposits of under $5 billion. A fee of 10 basis points per annum was levied on total deposits above $5 billion. That meant that a bank with about $20 billion in retail deposits would pay approximately $15 million in fees per annum. Quite simply the deposit guarantee was designed to give assurance to New Zealand depositors that the New Zealand banking system remained sound. I quote Dr Cullen: “We want to ensure that ordinary New Zealanders feel that their deposits are safe in the current uncertain international financial market conditions.” 
That scheme came into effect on 13 October through the delegation of authority by the Minister of Finance Dr Cullen to the Secretary to the Treasury under section 65ZD of the Public Finance Act 1989—another piece of Labour legislation of course. As mentioned the original retail deposit guarantee scheme was implemented under the Public Finance Act so this legislation before the House is now appropriate in order to continue that certainty and to ensure the ongoing stability of the New Zealand banking system. 
The reason why the original scheme did not have its own legislation is simply that the House was not sitting at the time. However as alluded to the Minister of Finance has powers under the Public Finance Act to enact such a scheme as long as “it appears to the Minister to be necessary or expedient in the public interest to do so.” Given the overwhelming international move to provide a similar scheme this test would appear to have been met. 
This bill will protect over $120 billion in deposits currently held by the banking and non-banking sector. Why is this important? There are a couple of very important reasons. The first is that there is another cost over and above the figure of between $625 million—at the most optimistic—to $1 billion which is between about 40 percent and 70 percent of total exposure of losses incurred by hard-working New Zealanders since the first of about 30 finance companies collapsed decimating the savings the lives and the well-being of many ordinary Kiwis. 
One of the main reasons why I support this bill is that—as far as we know—so far two investors who lost their savings in finance company collapses have taken their own lives and many are on suicide watch. An Auckland man in his late 60s who lost more than $100000 invested in Bridgecorp Finance killed himself after going into a deep depression. Suzanne Edmonds who runs a group representing thousands of Blue Chip and Bridgecorp investors said she knew of at least one other person in his 70s who had taken his own life and of many others who had become sick. 
If we remember Bridgecorp collapsed in July 2007 owing $459 million to over 14000 secured debenture holders—14000 ordinary Kiwi mothers fathers sisters brothers husbands and wives who had worked and saved for their retirement or for their children’s or grandchildren’s education. The vast majority were savers and not investors only to have the impossible happen. The plague that visited and wiped the savings of earlier generations in the form of the Great Depression was now visiting their homes and it made us all sick to the stomach as we watched and read about the horror stories—some of us were much sicker than others though. 
Then there was the story in the  
New Zealand Herald  
on 16 August about Karina Williams who has watched her parents’ health deteriorate rapidly since they lost more than $200000 in the Blue Chip collapse. The article states: “Williams said her father Jack 84 had a heart attack last Christmas when he and his wife Ngaire 72 received a Property Law Act notice that their house would be sold to pay off their debt. ‘It’s the stress that is taking its toll’ Williams said. ‘The financial costs are becoming like a crippling cancer that’s affecting these people. There’s been attention drawn to the fact of the collapse of these companies but not the collapse of health inflicted because of the waiting.’ Ngaire Williams said she was staying positive. Her husband was released from hospital last Friday 11 days after suffering an aneurysm she attributes largely to stress.”—and that stress was caused by the collapse of that finance company. 
The human cost of financial collapse has been huge. At the time New Zealanders demanded that their Government take action which the great Dr Cullen did as he always did. This bill simply seeks to extend Dr Cullen’s and Labour’s scheme. As far as ordinary New Zealanders are concerned the scheme works by protecting eligible depositors against default by participating institutions up to a maximum of $500000 per depositor per institution for bank deposits and $250000 per depositor per institution for non-bank deposits. It should be noted that the scheme does not protect financial institutions against commercial processes such as business growth shrinkage mergers take-overs restructures or most important failures. 
I am also very supportive of this scheme because it provides a high level of stability to the financial sector during fragile global economic times. As we are all aware—and as the Labour Green and Progressive party banking inquiry confirmed—the banks have been making an extraordinary profit on short-term floating interest rates. However we all acknowledge that the cost of international finance has increased substantially since the beginning of the financial crisis. Let us say that this began or became a globally acknowledged issue with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers on 15 September 2008. Actually did that not happen before the last election? 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: It did. 
STUART NASH 
: It did—while the National Party was still promising tax cuts because we could afford them? 
Hon Steve Chadwick 
: That’s right. 
STUART NASH 
: Well hold on a second. Mr English according to him was not aware of the financial crisis until after the passing of the first tax cuts and the cancelling of the second and third instalments. I wonder where he was asleep? 
Bill English the Rip Van Winkle of New Zealand politics went to sleep at a pivotal moment in global economic history. He slept during the most important and far-reaching crisis for two generations and then awoke and started to implement the trickle-down or supply-side economic theory in an attempt to fix the problem without realising that the world had moved on. He did not realise that the US the UK Australia and a host of other nations had in fact left Friedman economic thought behind and started to implement economic measures that were actually targeted at those who needed them—those on middle to low incomes—instead of one-third of all tax cuts going to the top 3 percent of wage and salary earners which is not fair. 
We could talk about 9 long months of broken promises at length but I digress and I apologise. If I had a dollar for every time a constituent asked me why the Government cut taxes for upper-income earners and did not give one penny to low-income earners I would be a wealthy man. [ 
Interruption 
] As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted by annoyance at broken tax promises a strong and robust banking system is the most important thing for the health of the economy. By this I mean that New Zealanders need to be able to put their money into reputable financial institutions in the knowledge that their money will not be wiped out by another tidal wave of company and institutional failures. 
One of the reasons this is important—apart from the obvious which I previously alluded to—is the ability of the financial sector to maintain or if necessary increase its bank deposit levels so as to be able to lend money to the business the farming and the private sectors. The last thing we want is for ordinary New Zealanders to lose confidence in our banking and non-banking sector and that is why I am supporting this bill. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. 
PESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie) 
: 
 I wish to take a short call on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. A number of speakers before me have touched on the advantages of the bill around giving certainty to financial institutions and maintaining confidence in our financial system. 
I will raise a couple of points that have been put forward by members opposite particularly around the financial inquiry they held in the last month. While they have been grandstanding by setting up bogus inquiries members of this Government have been travelling the country and talking to financial institutions; we have been actually visiting the financial institutions that are the heartbeat of our economy. We have been talking to and listening to those financial companies and one of the biggest things on their agenda has been the extension of this deposit guarantee scheme. So we have acted. I commend the Minister of Finance for taking this bill through Parliament early in order to give our financial companies a level of certainty in terms of the extension of the deposit guarantee scheme. 
The scheme is about minimising the exposure of the taxpayer. Although members opposite would like to see some sort of socialised banking whereby everyone pays a fee the way it works in reality is that there is a risk-return trade-off. Mr Parker referred to the big end of town benefiting from this bill but it will actually benefit a number of financial institutions such as South Canterbury Finance which has a rating of BB+ and lends to a number of rural and urban customers. It will benefit them by allowing our businesses to expand and grow particularly in the export sector and by providing employment opportunities which this country desperately needs. So this measure is not about supporting just the big end of town but middle-tier finance companies that are highly reliant at the moment on this deposit guarantee scheme. 
The bill is about protecting financial institutions but not to the extent that those financial institutions are buffered from the commercial realities of business restructurings and business failures. It is about supporting the finance sector through this difficult time and it is about the rough edges of the economy. We have seen a recent Treasury report that talked about a turn-round in this economy but that turn-round has not yet eventuated. We are yet to see economic growth quarter on quarter but we look forward optimistically to it. 
I support this bill. It is a good bill. I think it addresses the uncertainty in the finance sector at the right time. Thank you. 
Bill read a first time. 
Second Reading 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 I move  
That the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill be now read a second time 
. Members who spoke during the first reading have covered I think the essence of the bill and I welcome the broad support for it in Parliament. 
I want to make just a couple of additional points as we move through the second reading. The first point is to make it clear that in passing this bill it is the Government’s intention to move over time back to normal market conditions in our finance sector. The details of the extension of the guarantee will show that the Government is moving the pricing of the guarantee somewhere towards what market pricing would be. However we have given an extension whereby from today there will be a bit less than 2½ years until the guarantee expires around 2010 or 2011. That should be a clear signal to financial institutions that they should ready themselves for normal market conditions beyond that point. 
The second point I want to mention is one that is often overlooked and has occasionally been confused in commentaries and in some speeches. The previous Government following on from the finance company collapses passed into law a new regulatory regime for the non-bank deposit-taking institutions. That regime will come into place over the next 6 months or so. The regime involves more direct supervision by the Reserve Bank liquidity requirements and capital ratio requirements as well as a requirement for credit ratings. It is quite important to understand that that process is separate from the guarantee. It will require those institutions to meet higher prudential standards than they did before. So the extension of the guarantee will raise the hurdle but that does not occur until after October next year. Between now and then credit unions building societies and finance companies will be required to meet the standards set by the non-bank deposit-taking regime. That has been the subject of extensive consultation with the industry which was begun by the last Government and has been continued by the Reserve Bank under this Government. The sector is fully aware of what kind of requirements there will be. It has had the opportunity to discuss and in some cases disagree with them. 
It is important to understand that those two processes although related are actually separate. I expect that the challenge posed by the non-bank deposit-taking regime is more immediate than the change in the conditions of the retail deposit guarantee that we are legislating for today. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I rise in support of the bill and in so doing I draw attention to the fact that this is one of those processes that the public often say they like to see and rarely do see and by that I mean the major parties cooperating on issues of major importance across the House. I begin my remarks by thanking the Hon Bill English who when he was doing my current job—that of Opposition spokesperson on finance—was honourable in his cooperation with the then Minister of Finance when the first scheme was set up before the election. We would like to acknowledge that and we would also like to acknowledge the courtesy the Government has extended to the Opposition in briefing us on the introduction not only of the bill but of the policy. I thank the Minister and say that that has enabled us to form a more balanced view of proceedings. If I might express a hope it is that this will not be the last time that we are able to cooperate across the House on matters of major economic importance. I think all members of the Parliament are agreed that New Zealand faces difficult times in a fragile world and of course we cannot have it both ways. It cannot be the case that this is the worst of all recessions and it therefore justifies any response and that at the same time a thousand flowers have now bloomed and it is all hunky-dory. It cannot be as easy as that and we are happy to cooperate with the Government within reason on trying to work through some longer-term solutions that get us away from some of the cycles and roller coasters that may have made this recession more severe than it might otherwise have been. 
Let me touch briefly on a couple of the issues that have been raised in recent contributions to the debate. If I might I will pick up where the Minister of Finance left off and thank him for raising the issue of the contemporary regulation of the non-bank finance sector which is something I was going to cover in any case. Three pieces of legislation were carried forward by the previous Government: the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute) Act 2008 the Financial Advisers Act 2008 and the Reserve Bank Amendment Act of 2008. They had three interlinked objectives that are relevant to the situation we now find ourselves in. The first was to register financial service providers and the second was to register and provide rules of the game for financial advisers who had too often been front-door salespeople for pre-packaged products from the finance industry and not at all independent advisers acting in the interests of their clients. I say that not to besmirch any individual but to say that there were structural problems with the way the industry was set up. 
Finally the Reserve Bank Amendment Act extended for the first time the prudential supervision role of the Reserve Bank into the non-bank finance sector and as the Minister has rightly said in many ways that provides higher standards of supervision than are required in this framework legislation which specifically applies to the retail guarantee scheme. That is to say that that is all work in progress; that it has transcended the change of Government and that we all agree it is in the interests of the country is so much the better. 
Let me come on to some related issues which I believe also require bipartisan consideration. These are some of the matters that were raised by submitters in the recent banking inquiry. Leaving aside the fact that the Government did not want the inquiry to happen it has happened. There were a large number of submissions and there was a very strong consensus among submitters: firstly that the official cash rate was not working because much of it was locked into fixed-term mortgages so it was not able to respond quickly enough to catch the business cycle or the property cycle; and secondly that the official cash rate was not being fully passed through and therefore to achieve a given amount of sterilisation of economic cycles the Reserve Bank had to have greater amounts of either upward or downward movement of it allowing for the discounting process from the banking sector. 
Many submissions said that the housing bubble was big and dangerous and likely to happen again and from that arose the question of whether the official cash rate on its own is a sufficient tool to address that or whether it needs to work hand in hand with additional monetary policy instruments savings policy instruments or possibly tax instruments which potentially could operate to create a more level playing field. These are big important and difficult issues which require careful long-term thinking. Some of it may emerge from the Government’s tax review working-group. We will be watching with interest as the banking inquiry reports—to see what emerges from that—and hope there will be an opportunity for more discussion in the national interest across the House. 
I come back to the structural elements of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill that is before the House today. It is structural skeletal legislation. It provides powers to the Minister of Finance and the Minister has outlined how he plans to use them in the short term. The Minister has made it clear that it is a stepping stone towards unwinding a scheme that was brought in quite rightly by agreement to address a specific set of problems at a specific time. We are all agreed that we need a strong financial system. We are all agreed that the scheme was a good way of maintaining that and that it makes sense to extend the scheme. It is appropriate to extend the scheme for a further year under structured conditions to match the timetable of our colleagues’ scheme across the Tasman. 
What this says however is that all the finance companies—the non-bank financial institutions—will have to meet interest costs and they will have to get themselves rated by a credit-rating agency. A previous Labour speaker Mr Stuart Nash pointed out that the process of rating can be difficult that some due to reasons of scale rather than viability may not qualify and that that could perversely contribute to their falling over to the detriment of many ordinary New Zealanders who are depositors in those schemes. We will watch with interest and care as this is implemented to ensure that there are not any side effects that are worse than the disease that it seeks to cure—the level of risk that exists in the first place. 
We have said it before and I want to repeat it that one area where we depart from the Government is in the treatment of the major banks in this scheme. Under the previous Government we made it clear to the banks that they would need to participate in both the wholesale and retail schemes if they proceeded with either; that spread the risk and it meant the Crown the taxpayer was better compensated for that risk. By signalling to the banking sector that it is all right for it to participate only at wholesale levels we believe that that is narrowing the fee base concentrating the risk in the non-bank financial sector and thereby elevating the average level of risk on the taxpayer. We ask the Government to seriously consider that matter: whether it is not worth having a further set of conversations with the banks along the lines that it would be better if they maintained a presence in both schemes if they remained in one. We have said it before and I will repeat it that in other respects it would appear that the Government is treating the non-bank finance sector with a rather sterner stick than that applied to the major banks. 
AARON GILMORE (National) 
: 
 I rise to support the second reading of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I want to touch on a few things: the timing the rules of engagement and the industry acceptance. I am pleased that everybody in the House today is wide awake and listening to the debate on this bill. 
I want to firstly touch on the timing of this bill. At the moment we are having discussions particularly out of the US on the so-called green shoots of economic recovery. I think the previous guarantee scheme had an expiry date of October 2010. Many people who invest particularly those who invest in non-bank finance companies invest for a period of about 12 months so we are nearly getting to that period of 12 months and between now and the end of that scheme people will start to make a decision on whether they reinvest their funds. That makes it quite an appropriate time to take the opportunity to get this revised new scheme in place to take over and extend through to December 2011. One of the reasons I look forward to that is that those green shoots by that time having gone from being a planted seed to green shoots should hopefully be a beautiful rose bush that we can harvest and hand out to the wonderful people of New Zealand. It has been mentioned that one of the reasons for a finishing date of a little over 12 months is to align better with our friends across the Tasman in Australia. As someone who has spent a number of years in the financial capital markets I say that it is critical given the tight time frames and links that we have with Australia that there is as much alignment as we can possibly get. I think that is of significant benefit to New Zealand savers and investors. However as many speakers in the first reading and previous speakers on the second reading have mentioned this benefit to investors and savers does come at some cost—there is no free lunch. 
This scheme has been redesigned from the existing scheme; hence the reason why we have a brand new bill. The scheme grants the Minister of Finance specific powers to develop rules of engagement—as I call it—under which the scheme guarantee would apply. Importantly the scheme—as I mentioned—comes at a cost; it will require participating companies to pay some sort of fee as well as have what is known as a BB credit-rating. I want to spend a little bit of time on this issue of credit ratings. There is a little bit of confusion I think in the House today. A BB credit-rating as provided by the largest credit-rating provider in the world a company called Standard and Poor’s actually implies an investment that is below an investment grade; a typical investment grade is commonly known as BBB-. By giving a rating of BB Standard and Poor’s implies normally that an investment is a speculative type of investment not an investment of investment grade—not a safe investment—but a speculative investment with perhaps based on normal work a 25 percent chance of failure. That shows an interesting aspect that has not really been picked up by any previous speakers: that this guarantee cuts in at quite a relatively low level with quite a high speculative rate for investment. 
The members on the other side of the House say that the cost of getting such a grade from a credit-rating agency like Standard and Poor’s is too expensive to participate in this scheme. I say to the members that this bill actually removes the compulsion to be in this scheme. It is absolutely optional for participants to take advantage of the scheme should they wish. To take up the advantage of a credit guarantee obviously participants have to spend some money. It is also interesting that no one has touched on the fact that the scheme is available only to participants currently in the existing scheme or to mergers or changes of companies that are in the current scheme. As far as I am aware nearly all the participants currently in the scheme already have some form of credit rating. 
Interestingly enough also the cost to take up the option of the scheme is relatively low relative to the size of some of these companies. Most of the non-bank financial institutions in New Zealand that are of any note have anywhere between $100 million and above in assets. The cost of gaining a credit rating from entities such as Standard and Poor’s is somewhere in the region of about $100000 and thereafter ranging from $100000 to $200000 per annum. Relative to an asset base of $100 million it is quite a small cost for the opportunity to take advantage of this scheme. I think that most of the 19 finance companies that have collapsed in the past 2 to 6 years were small finance companies worth under $100 million in invested total assets. It just shows us that one of the reasons why that cost exists is that larger companies can pay the $100000 and often they survive in many ways. 
I will touch on a couple of things. I had the pleasure of giving a speech recently to a group of people from the Financial Services Institute of Australasia (FINSIA). FINSIA is the leading organisation for those who are involved in the financial sector particularly in Australia. I am proud to be a member of the organisation. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: You’re a member of everything. 
AARON GILMORE 
: Absolutely. The single most popular question I was asked about the speech I gave was what we are going to do about the retail deposit scheme. Interestingly enough that speech was about 6 weeks ago. At that time I had to dodge the question quite appropriately because it was not clear at that stage what we would or would not do. We were still in the development of the scheme as outlined in the bill. Today I am quite pleased to be able to stand here and talk on the bill and to discuss the fact that we have a scheme which will be extended past the 2010 deadline. I am pleased and I am sure my fellow members of FINSIA will be very pleased as well that the scheme is being extended. 
The bill will not in itself save us money or save our economy but it will provide some certainty and surety to those people who want to save and invest in particular in our non-banking sector. We have heard some economic voodoo from people on the other side of the House about what is required to right the economy about what is wrong with the banking sector and about the perceived failure to participate in some form of charade of a banking inquiry. People on this side of the House are blessed. We are blessed with the experience of many people from the banking sector who do not have to undertake an education about the banking sector. We have a reasonable understanding and knowledge of the banking and finance sector and the bill we have before us today is a classic example of that understanding and knowledge. I am pleased to be part of that team. The bill is one the finance sector wants. Since the introduction of the bill has been announced a number of people in the wider sector have accepted it and been very happy for it to be introduced. It is a bill I am very pleased to speak on today. Thank you. 
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
: 
 I will not take up much of the House’s time because I think a lot has been said. There is cross-party support for the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill but I note—as I did in the first reading debate—that the Opposition has some concerns. The member Aaron Gilmore made a variety of comments about small institutions. The concern we have is that the bill does not outline the eligibility policy. That is left to the Minister and provided for under the Minister’s authority to determine eligibility. The issue we have some concern about is the situation of a number of smaller institutions which the previous speaker spoke about in his wonderful speech which presumably was akin in his own mind to the Gettysburg address. Mr Gilmore is a member of everything and has done everything. Some people wonder whether he has fixed his “I” problem—“I’ve done this I’ve done that and I’ve done everything.” Maybe he has not. He is not concerned about the smaller institutions and companies that may not have the capacity for instance to meet the requirements—although he thinks that all one has to do is cough up a bit of money and the rating agency will gave them a rating. Well it is not as simple as that. 
In order to achieve a BB rating a company or institution has to be up to the mark. I am advised that it is quite an exhaustive process. It is not like ordering a double meat burger and chips from McDonald’s as that member may be wont to do. A company or institution does not just pay money and get a rating just as one does not just pay money and get a degree; it has to pay the money and then go through an exhaustive process. That is why those credit-rating agencies are particularly credible. A number of smaller companies and institutions have insufficient scale to meet the requirements of those credit agencies which in itself can create instability. If they cannot meet the mark and they cannot then get that guarantee does that become a shakeout scenario in the financial sector? 
Again as I said in the first reading debate no one would wish companies and institutions to fall over and for mum and dad Kiwi investors to be left in their wake. No one is predicting that and no one would want it. We are simply asking the question whether if the smaller institutions and finance companies do not meet the mark it is possible that in a financial investment sense there may be flight from those companies to larger institutions thereby bringing about the potential collapse of those smaller institutions. Who will be left to mop up what is left? It is the big Aussie banks and the big end of town that National seems to be particularly concerned for. The banks are able to benefit from the wholesale guarantee without as I understand it being obliged to contribute to the retail scheme. 
The member Aaron Gilmore mentioned the banking inquiry. Mr Gilmore is the learned professional who has done everything been a member of everything and knows everything by his own admission. I wish I was half as good as he thinks he is! I would have thought he would acknowledge that it is appropriate given the public perception around banking—whether that public perception be factual misguided or incorrect—to have a bipartisan banking inquiry as I said in the first reading debate. We had a banking inquiry. It was non-partisan for the three parties that participated in it—the Greens the Progressives and Labour—but there was a refusal by National ACT and a few of the others that linger around this place to even participate in an unofficial if you like informal inquiry let alone a full-blown parliamentary select committee inquiry. Such an inquiry—I think we all agree—would have been the best option because it would carry with it the authority of Parliament. 
The question I raised in the first reading debate—and I raise it again now—is why any party would object to such an inquiry unless there was something the party did not want us to know unless there was something it did not want this House to expose or unless it did not suit its political purpose for us to have a thorough examination of the sector of our economy called the banking and financial sector. I cannot for the life of me see where the politics in this particular question would be because the truth is that Kiwis—rightly or wrongly and it could well be wrongly I concede that—hold the view en masse that they are not getting a fair go from many of the participants in the financial and banking sector. As Kiwis look across the ditch to Australia they perceive that our official cash rate reductions are not being passed through as swiftly as those of our Australian cousins. I think it was worth it to have a crack at looking at that. In fact it would have been one of the finer moments of this Parliament if we did not play politics but just said that that is an issue New Zealanders are concerned about. In a recession the mortgage bill tends to be the biggest we face. That was a moment in Parliament when we could have dealt with something without politics and see what comes out of it.  
There is now a big debate around how we deal with inflation. There is a big debate with our manufacturing sector as it struggles with the high dollar and as it struggles to export and be competitive with its counterparts in other countries. There is a huge debate about how we can continue to control inflation and how if we choose to we incentivise or perhaps disincentivise different forms of investment in the non-tradable economy as opposed to the tradable economy. I would have thought that was a simple proposition that would not have taken a lot of steam or political venom to discharge but it appears that it was not. I think that lessens this place and some of the participants here in Parliament.  
We support this bill. It is a measure that as other speakers have said will indeed reinforce stability. The question I have with this Government guarantee is that contrary to what some people have said the big end of town will benefit because it has a guarantee. I think Mr Foss and others said the shareholders of the larger Aussie-owned banks will benefit. Any institution that has a guarantee has greater stability and greater confidence which is therefore seen by those who may invest in it—that is the shareholders. Generally—in my world of market economics anyway—that encourages an increase in the share price as a vote of confidence in a company or bank that holds that Government guarantee. I do not think we should delude ourselves by saying that the bill will not benefit shareholders and banks. Give me a break; of course it will. But the question is whether it will have a counterbalancing effect because the bar is very high—a BB credit-rating—for the non-banking institutions that may not have the scale to meet the mark. I will conclude with those points and reiterate that we support the bill with those reservations and points made. 
Dr RUSSEL NORMAN (Co-Leader—Green) 
: 
 I rise to speak on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. As I said in my first reading speech the Green Party supports this bill. The Green Party supports the deposit scheme. The scheme was introduced because it was essential in order to maintain confidence in the banking sector in the middle of a global financial crisis. We support a time-limited extension of the deposit scheme and hopefully a phasing out of the deposit scheme over time. 
For me it has been most interesting in this debate to listen to members of the Government speak as if being part of the financial sector was something they were championing and as if they should be proud to have come out of the banking sector. Well as a matter of fact the banking sector collapsed the global economy. That is a basic reality. Members opposite are saying that somehow the banking sector is still the master of the universe even after taxpayers of the entire world had to put their hands in their pockets to bail out the banking sector. It seems to me extraordinary that people in the House say we should somehow worship at the feet of banking executives when they have demonstrably proven they do not know what they are doing. 
This bill is part of the bail-out in which the taxpayer had to get involved in order to save the financial sector from itself. Of course we have gone through periods like this before. During the Depression and the postwar period the people and the Governments of the world had to intervene to stabilise the system. Once again the people and the taxpayers of the world have had to intervene to stabilise the system and that is exactly what this legislation will do along with the wholesale guarantee scheme. It seems to me that if taxpayers have to intervene to save banks from bank executives who made such a complete mess of the banking sector then surely the quid pro quo should be that chief executive officers’ salaries should not be obscene. It is obscene that in our country the chief executive officers of banks earn millions of dollars while ordinary workers who are the foundation of our economy have very very low wages. Why do ordinary workers have to pay taxes to underwrite banks while the chief executive officers of banks who got us into the global financial crisis earn millions and millions of dollars? That is obscene and unacceptable. 
Why do banks continue to make very large profits on their interest margins? Banks lost some money because they invested in firms that turned out to be bad investments. They made poor decisions about which firms to invest in and they lost quite a lot of money so they have had to put quite a lot of money aside. Although they have put all that money aside however they still make very large amounts of profits on the interest spreads—the interest margins they charge people. Profits on interest are still up on last year in spite of what members might have heard. Why do taxpayers have to pick up the pieces through legislation like this because bank executives are so useless that they made a complete mess of it? Why do taxpayers have to pick up the pieces yet the treatment of bank staff is still appalling? We are sending jobs in the banking sector overseas. One would think that as long as the New Zealand taxpayer is underwriting and supporting the banks the banks would keep jobs in New Zealand. But they are not: they send them overseas. One would think that as long as the banks are being underwritten by the New Zealand taxpayer they would change some of the practices around pushing loans and money on to people who cannot afford them. Surely banks would pull back on the system they have set up to incentivise their employees—pushing on them the idea that they have to sell more loans to people who cannot afford them which is part of the reason why we are in the mess we are in—because the taxpayers are underwriting this system. 
The other part of this issue as I talked about a little bit in my first reading speech is that we need some solutions to deal with the fact that we have just been through a debt-fuelled consumption-led boom. We saw house asset prices double over the space of 2002-07 which was a completely irresponsible policy on the part of the Government at the time in that it did not intervene and do something about it. The current Government cannot be held responsible for the ridiculous boom in housing prices which has made housing unaffordable but the current Government is still not changing the policy settings to do anything about it. It is all very well for Bill English to say it was a debt-fuelled consumption-led boom—I agree with him—but we need to change the policy settings to do something about it. 
We know the changes we need to make. We know that investment properties and the tax incentives to speculate in housing were one of the key drivers. We know that is a simple fact. Every tax adviser across the country was telling people to invest in investment properties in order to reduce their tax. We can change those rules. Those rules are within the Government’s purview to change and I encourage the Minister of Finance to follow through and do that. 
We also know that we can change monetary policy. If we are to maintain the stability of the banking system not to mention the stability of the New Zealand economy we need to change monetary policy. Relying on the official cash rate has been a bit of a disaster. All we did when we increased the official cash rate was suck foreign capital into New Zealand which the banks then loaned on to the housing market. The safest way banks could think of to make some money was to push it into the housing market. Instead of giving it to New Zealand businesses which could have used it productively the banks were good only at passing on loans into the housing market because it is easy and simple to do. Houses continue to increase in price so the banks just loan money into the housing market. The hard thing to do is to back small to medium sized businesses in New Zealand that want to borrow money to invest in productive enterprise so they can compete with imports and so they can export. That would be a responsible and useful thing for the banking sector to do; simply borrowing billions and billions of dollars from overseas in order to push that money into the housing market asset inflation was not in the best interest of our country. 
On one hand we say that we will give banks a bit of a hand because we have no choice. We cannot afford to let the banks fail. They are too big to fail as they are fundamental to our economy. On the other side of the equation we need to regulate banks in order to make them useful to us. It is useful to us for banks to loan money into the productive sector not to put more and more money into a housing asset bubble. One of the ways we can make banks useful to us if we have the courage to do it is to intervene directly in terms of Reserve Bank ratios. This has been discussed in a number of places. It is a mechanism whereby for every dollar the banks put into any sector we identify as an asset bubble such as the housing sector the banks have to deposit a proportion with the Reserve Bank or hold it within the bank whatever percentage that is. The effect of that mechanism is that it makes it harder for the banks to shovel foreign currency through into whatever particular asset bubble one is concerned about. In particular the housing market has been the asset bubble. Using reserve ratios overseen by the Reserve Bank is one way to try to restrict the flow of foreign capital borrowed from overseas into the housing asset bubble and speculation in the housing market. These tools are available if the Government has the courage to take them on. 
If the Government has the courage to do more than say that it will cut red tape which sounds really great or that it will try to free up the productive sector then I ask what will it really do. If we really want to intervene in the sector we need to reduce the level of the New Zealand dollar. One of the key things driving up the New Zealand dollar has been the official cash rate. It has kept the New Zealand dollar high. We should reduce interest rates. Again the official cash rate has been one of the drivers of interest rates amongst other things. In order to reduce interest rates we need to target inflation in the housing market. The official cash rate is a very blunt instrument when we use it to try to suppress inflation right across the economy. It drives up the New Zealand dollar and it makes it difficult for New Zealand productive businesses to borrow money. It would be much more effective to target the housing market itself and then to make capital available for New Zealand business who actually need to borrow money to produce things. In the process we would reduce the level of the New Zealand dollar and reduce interest rates to the productive sector. All of these things would make a significant difference. 
This bill is fine as it is but we need to have a broader policy debate about monetary policy financial instruments and the stability of the New Zealand economy and the New Zealand banking sector. 
JONATHAN YOUNG (National—New Plymouth) 
: 
 Investors and depositors still remain nervous in New Zealand and it is at times such as this time that Governments need to act in order to bring stability. This Government has sought to protect New Zealanders through the turbulent economic times we have been through and continue to face. 
Recently the  
New Zealand Herald  
reported that John Kidd a McDouall Stuart analyst had said “The Government must provide some clarity around the future of the retail deposit guarantee and soon to minimise uncertainty and avoid another looming funding crunch in the beleaguered finance company sector”. The  
New Zealand Herald 
 reported further that “After being starved of retail investor money after a string of high-profile failures in the sector the introduction of the guarantee in October last year saw a flood of cash into finance companies. But there has been no official word on whether the scheme will be extended when it expires in October next year. Because of that investors have been reluctant to invest further in finance companies for terms beyond the scheme’s expiry date.” That is a concern. It is good to note that the Minister of Finance the Hon Bill English is responding not only to the international situation but also to the needs of the finance industry here in New Zealand which will continue to fuel and finance our recovery out of this recession in the years ahead. 
The Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme was instituted in October 2008 in the wake of a growing sense of uncertainty regarding deposits. As we walked in step with Australia New Zealand also under the previous Government set up a retail deposit guarantee scheme. It followed other measures of the Reserve Bank to ensure liquidity at that particular time. Apart from protecting depositors the guarantee also afforded banks and businesses with a sense of stability during those troubled times that we experienced by ensuring investor confidence. A number of changes are coming up in this bill which others no doubt will allude to but some of the changes are to bring some transition back into normal business practice. This means that people or companies such as banks and other institutions that take the step into this extended scheme for a further 14 months will at the end of that period of time come back into normal finance and business practice. 
Thank you Mr Speaker. I am happy to commend this bill to the House. 
KATRINA SHANKS (National) 
: 
 It is my pleasure to take a call tonight on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. This is an interesting bill because it is a continuation of a scheme that we already have in place to address the issues around the confidence that our investors have with the banks that they deposit with. We know that a year ago there was real concern around the viability of many of the overseas banks and financial institutions. There was concern that investors were withdrawing their money and that they did not have any confidence in the banking system. 
I will address the comments that Russel Norman made earlier and to be honest I do not quite know where to start. At the end of the day it was the strength of our banks down here in New Zealand that helped our economy along. We did not have our banks folding. We had relatively strong banks and the Government got in behind the banks and put in a retail deposit guarantee scheme to ensure that our investors will have confidence in the banking system in New Zealand. 
This bill has extended the current scheme until 31 December 2011 which is an extension of another year. The current scheme was to expire on 12 October 2010. We were finding that there was a lack of confidence around the uncertainty of what would happen to these deposits so we have continued that scheme in order to help out our economy. 
We realised that if people do not invest in our economy then we will not have any growth. That is what it is about. John Key’s Government is about getting some bounce out of this recession so that we can get some good solid growth. It is so that we can be leaders going forward with our very strong economy and our export markets and we can ensure that we get cutting edge technology and cutting edge businesses. We are out there at the front end getting our fair share of the business that we should be getting in those areas. 
It is really interesting to find out that currently there is $120 billion worth of guaranteed deposits in total in existence over 73 institutions. There has been a big take-up of the retail deposit guarantee scheme and this will continue. It was my pleasure to take a call on this bill this evening. Thank you very much Mr Deputy Speaker. 
MELISSA LEE (National) 
: 
 It is a pleasure to rise and take a short call on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. Already many members have spoken on this bill but I want to add my tuppence worth to make a couple of points. I was trying to get to the House this afternoon to watch some of the debate that was happening and I was quite appalled. Let me start by saying what a load of hogwash from Labour! Apparently it is supporting this bill and it feels the need to blame others. Let me remind members opposite that the mass financial company failures—some 30 financial institutions—happened on its watch when Labour was in Government. I ask members whether we are all glad that the 9 long years of Labour taking New Zealand around the bend and then down the gurgler of the OECD rankings are over and that we have a great Prime Minister a fabulous Cabinet and a caucus who are focused—yes focused—on getting New Zealand back on track. 
Hon Parekura Horomia 
: What are you talking about? 
MELISSA LEE 
: Yes the member does not know what we are talking about because Labour was concerned about putting New Zealand down the gurgler. We are on the way up. 
Katrina Shanks 
: 9 long years! 
MELISSA LEE 
: That is right—9 long years. We are on the way back up and on track. 
If the approval rating of our Prime Minister is any indication the National Government is doing a sterling job—a fantastic job. What percentage did the Leader of the Opposition have? I believe it was a single figure—a single digit. This retail deposit guarantee scheme was a direct response to international financial market turbulence. The National Government is extending the scheme while tightening some of the conditions. 
Compared to other speakers I have no background in finance or banking. There are some hints that the concerns about the stability of the financial systems are now abating. Some countries are even announcing economic growth. For me as a mother not a financial person or a banker as a daughter and as a business owner responsible for paying staff I like to know that my deposits are safe and that I will not lose my hard-earned money and the moneys for my family and my staff members. I like to know that it is safe and that this Government is guaranteeing the deposit. It is a prop up for the country’s financial system but until we are back on track I like to know that the Government guarantees it and the thousands of retail depositors—the ma and pa depositors of this country who want a better future for themselves and their families—will agree with me. 
The new scheme starts on 13 October 2010 when the current scheme ends which is the day before and it continues until 31 December 2011. The planned extension will maintain confidence and help both the depositors and institutions to adjust back to a more normal business environment. What a fantastic thing that will be. New Zealand will be back on track. I commend this bill to the House. 
STUART NASH (Labour) 
: 
 I rise to speak in support of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill as I did in the first reading for a number of reasons. I was interested to hear Melissa Lee emphasise this Government for the whole of her speech and how this Government is responsible for guaranteeing the deposits of ordinary New Zealanders. Ms Lee has a very short memory. In fact Dr Michael Cullen instigated this bill under urgency. Dr Michael Cullen was one of the great Labour politicians who believe in listening to the people. He understood that hundreds and thousands and millions of dollars had been lost by New Zealanders due to the collapse of financial institutions. He went around the country with people like Phil Goff Annette King and Maryan Street and they spoke to constituents around their electorates. They realised after hearing the stories about people losing their life-savings that something simply needed to be done. So I tell Melissa Lee that the National Government did not do this; it was a Labour Government measure. 
This bill is going through under urgency at the moment because the National Government did not get off its chuff and sort this thing out. The current retail guarantee expires in about 4 weeks. It was set up for 1 year. We are debating this bill under urgency so that the extension of the scheme will be in place and will give a high level of stability to the mum and dad savers who rely on their savings for their retirement. We all know that the Government will cut superannuation and raise GST. Bill English’s Tax Working Group has said that it thinks it would be a great idea to raise GST to 15 percent maybe 17 percent or even 20 percent. It wants to do that so it can drop the top tax rates from 38 percent and 33 percent down to 30 percent. How will that help the vast majority of the people of New Zealand? How will that help superannuitants? That is why Dr Cullen brought this deposit guarantee scheme in. 
There is a fundamental difference between the groups of people who were losing the money they had invested: there are savers and there are investors. Savers are the people who had put their hard-earned savings—which they had built up over 30 40 50 60 or many many years of working hard and paying their taxes—into these funds only to see their savings wiped out. Savers do not necessarily price risk like investors do. Investors are professionals who understand risk or are supposed to and therefore invest appropriately. They understand that risk equals return whereas savers—mum and dad investors who lost all their money in the financial sector—were not pricing risk; they were putting their money away ready for their retirement for their children’s education or for their grandchildren’s education. As I alluded to in some of the examples I gave earlier we are seeing the downside of the collapse of the financial sector in terms of the increase in ill health and decrease in the well-being of a huge cohort of New Zealanders. I spoke of at least two people who had committed suicide because they had lost their life-savings. I spoke of the tremendous hardship and mental anguish of those New Zealanders. Melissa Lee smiles but I do not think the issue is particularly funny or worth smiling about. Many many Kiwis have suffered and this deposit guarantee scheme will alleviate a lot of the anguish and harm caused to many people who have their money invested at this time. 
I support this bill for two reasons. First it is about ordinary New Zealanders whom members opposite tend not to understand. I cannot believe that when we are talking about New Zealanders who have committed suicide because they have lost their life-savings we see some members opposite smiling and clapping. Quite frankly that is one of the saddest things I can imagine. I read about it in the  
New Zealand Herald  
and I thought: “Goodness me! Imagine if that had been my parents.” Let us imagine that it had been our parents who had lost their life-savings after paying taxes for 50 years. Imagine them seeing their life-savings suddenly wiped out and being told to sell their family home to pay their debts to those blokes who are living the high life in Sydney. I do not think that is fair. 
Dr Cullen did what all good Labour politicians do: he remedied the problem. He came up with this retail deposit guarantee scheme which said that the Government of New Zealand would guarantee the deposits made by good hard-working ordinary New Zealanders. He put this scheme in place in the space of 24 hours. How do I know this? I was at a Taradale branch meeting. Michael Cullen was one of those MPs who go to every branch meeting in his or her electorate. My God they were great meetings! We heard Dr Cullen the then Minister of Finance and also Deputy Prime Minister talk about what was going on. Once for the first time since I had been in Hawke’s Bay Michael Cullen sent an apology to that meeting. We thought that something serious must be going down because Michael Cullen always attended those meetings just like every good Labour Cabinet Minister. We woke up the next day to find out that he had been working for the last 48 hours without sleep with his Australian counterpart the legislators and the Secretary to the Treasury to come up with a scheme that he could take to ordinary New Zealanders and tell them not to worry. They could sleep easy because he guaranteed that if any of these finance companies collapsed people would not lose their money. He went back and as Minister of Finance said that the Labour Government would guarantee that people would not lose their money. 
That scheme put in place the fundamental philosophies of social democracy. The fundamental philosophies of social democracy are to look after ordinary Kiwis who have saved hard who have paid their taxes and who have saved for a rainy day. That is what Dr Cullen did and I think it was fantastic. Now we are debating this bill which will extend that scheme. I really support the bill and I commend Mr English for understanding the value of it. But I think Mr English sees just the financial side of things as opposed to the hardship faced by ordinary New Zealanders. 
The second reason I support the bill is that it shores up the banking system. I was at the banking inquiry and it was very interesting. I take my hat off to the chief executive of Kiwibank. 
Paul Quinn 
: One of your mates. 
STUART NASH 
: I do not think the chief executive of Kiwibank is one of my mates but he came along to the banking inquiry. He stood up and said that he was there because he was accountable to the people of New Zealand. I was talking to one of the bigwigs at Westpac before this inquiry was held and I asked him to come along to the inquiry. I told him that if he had nothing to hide he should come along and tell us what he is doing and dispel the perception that the big banks are ripping Kiwis off. He said: “Cobber I probably should come along and tell them what we’re doing.” I said that that would be fantastic. I told him that if he could see his way there it would be the best piece of public relations his bank could possibly do. But he could not. Kiwibank fronted up because it is a bank that is owned by Kiwis and is for Kiwis. I applaud Kiwibank. I applaud the other people who had the guts to put in submissions stump up with the figures and actually say that for short-term floating mortgage rates the banks are rorting ordinary New Zealanders. That is what the inquiry heard from a number of people including Bernard Hickey. Someone said to me that Bernard Hickey was coming along and that he was a friend of the banks. I said that Bernard Hickey himself admitted this. 
The reason why short-term floating interest rates on mortgages were the terms of the inquiry was that Mr English had said that he would support an inquiry. Suddenly after a weekend of beers with his mates or some phone calls—we do not know what happened—he withdrew his support. He had already stated in the press that the banks needed to stump up and bear some of the pain that the banks needed to come on board and that the banks needed to face up to ordinary New Zealanders. But suddenly the rhetoric changed. He said he was not supporting a banking inquiry. To tell the truth I felt quite sorry for Mr Foss the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. He does a good job; I take my hat off to him. He was put in a very difficult situation because the Minister of Finance had said that the Government would support this inquiry. Mr Foss went to the select committee and said that he thought they could get it through. Then suddenly Mr Foss had to go along and say that he did not support the inquiry at all. We asked Mr Foss what had happened and who had been talking to him. He said that no one had been and that he had just made that decision himself. We said that we thought his Minister of Finance had made that decision. So poor Mr Foss was put in the unenviable position of having to go against what he believed in. I know that Mr Foss wanted this banking inquiry. In fact it is a shame that Mr Foss himself did not put forward a submission because I know that the submission would have read like every other submission that we heard—that is that the banks are not treating New Zealanders the way they should be treating them. It is a shame that Mr Foss did not come along to the inquiry but we can have these conversations off the record. 
Getting back to the bill I say that one of the reasons why it is important which has been alluded to is that—let us face facts—we need a strong banking sector in this country. The Australian banks which basically have about 80 percent of our market are some of the most profitable banks in the world. I accept the fact that we need profitable banks but they are some of the most profitable in the world. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I am happy to speak on the second reading of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I am pleased that the Government has decided to introduce this bill and to deal with the issue in a legislative way. However I am deeply concerned about the bill being dealt with through all of its stages here in Parliament under urgency. The reason that I am concerned about that is that there is no opportunity for any of the institutions that will be affected by this bill to have any public input into it by way of submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The select committee does not have the opportunity to give detailed consideration to all of the elements of the bill. 
I am also quite concerned to pick the bill up off the Table of the House as I come in here this evening and find that the regulatory impact statement is not set out in full in the bill. It is in fact to be found on the Treasury website if I want to go and read it. That is what I will have to do now over the tea break. Giving this speech at one end of the tea break obviously gives me an opportunity to comment on it when I return. But the problem I have is that that means the legislation will not get the degree of scrutiny that it deserves. 
Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: Thank you for the opportunity to continue my contribution on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. When the House rose for the dinner adjournment I was making the point that the bill which I had just picked up off the Table of the House included a comment in the regulatory impact statement that it was not in fact the regulatory impact statement. It was only the executive summary of the regulatory impact statement. We are directed to the Treasury website in order to find the full regulatory impact statement—all 25 pages of it. There was a very interesting comment that I found right at the very beginning of the regulatory impact statement in the executive summary. It said: “Given the time imperative implementation is to be through urgent legislation for some or all of the stages with a limited select committee process.” Where is the limited select process? That is what I want to know. There is a reason why the executive summary of the regulatory impact statement says there was to be a limited selected committee process and that is that there has been no public consultation on this bill whatsoever. That is a serious issue when we are talking about something that will obviously have an impact on a significant number of individuals particularly those who invest currently in institutions that will no longer qualify for coverage under the Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme. 
When consultation is talked about in the regulatory impact statement which has been generally hidden from public view because it has been tucked away on the Treasury website instead of included in the bill itself the statement says: “The decision was made not to consult proactively on the proposals with the public. This is due to: officials already having a reasonable amount of information about stakeholder views from regular interactions (Summarised in Annex 3); desirability to make an announcement soon limiting the time available for any consultation; a period of consultation would make timing significantly worse and may not make us any better informed;”—that is a Treasury line if ever I heard one—“commercial sensitivity of the policy decision; concern that public consultation would create further uncertainty in the market. The proposed course of action is temporary.” Well so was the original course of action which was not subject to legislation at all. In the recommendation it says: “For these same reasons we recommend the some or all of the stages of legislation to enact these changes be passed under urgency with support from key support and opposition parties. There could also be a limited (one-two day) select committee process.” But no select committee process is being allowed for at all. I am a little bit nervous about that because I think it is important that we have the opportunity not simply to receive public submissions but actually to receive a full briefing from officials to our key spokespeople on legislation of such major significance. I think it is a very unfortunate approach that the Government has decided to take with this legislation. 
Do we in essence support the legislation? Yes of course we do. We were the Government that introduced the Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme in the first place. Are there issues around some of the detail of it? Yes there are and I think of the question I raised immediately preceding the resumption of debate about those individuals who currently have investments in institutions that will choose not to continue with the scheme and those that will be unable to continue with the scheme due to the new requirements of the scheme. They will have some concern about how the changes might impact on the decision they have made to reinvest knowing that the guarantee was there in the first place. 
It is important that we have a guarantee scheme in place but not so much because our banks need any protection from the circumstances that we saw occurring in the rest of the world. In fact I think our banks were better placed than many and the reason they were better placed was that we had much better regulatory oversight and prudential supervision from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand than many other jurisdictions. Much of the talk that we hear from overseas about regulators now beefing up the rules is about actions that New Zealand does not have to take because New Zealand has had beefed-up rules in those areas for a long time. Where there has been a disadvantage I guess to investors in the New Zealand marketplace is in the non-bank deposit-taking sector and we have seen the fall of many finance companies over several years. We have seen regulatory frameworks now put in place to address concerns around non-bank deposit-taking organisations and financial advisers as well and that is an important step for us to take. 
With three bills passed last year before the general election of course we are in a much better position to go forward. The problem though is that before that legislation is fully effective certain actions need to be taken. Considerable work is going on at the moment in the financial advisers sector and the Reserve Bank is working very closely with the non-bank deposit-taking sector in order to put in place the rules that will be needed. 
The reason New Zealand had to have a deposit guarantee scheme is simply the fact that we are in a situation where money can be transferred out of our country across what are now called e-borders. They are not physical borders. That could have been done in an instant. As a result if we did not match what was occurring in other jurisdictions with deposit guarantee schemes we would have risked essentially a run on perfectly healthy well-regulated institutions because a guarantee would have been seen by those perhaps less sophisticated in that regard to offer a better deal than the situation in New Zealand. That is obviously why we needed to have it. It was not so much to protect investors in New Zealand banks but to protect New Zealand banks from investors’ flight of capital as it were to a more protected market where a deposit guarantee scheme was operating. In Australia they have a different set of rules from us and theirs operate for a further year. That is why we support the Government moving to match Australia in respect of the timing of this initiative. 
When we get to the Committee stage I think we will have to do some pretty serious and detailed analysis to substitute for the kind of briefing that we would have got in the 1 to 2 day select committee hearing that Treasury recommended parliamentarians should receive. As a result I hope that the Minister when he takes the chair will be in a position to give us the kind of response that we will be looking for as we go through this recommended change in some considerable detail. With those caveats on the table I reiterate our support for the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and regret that we have not had the opportunity to consider it in more detail. 
JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) 
: 
 It is a privilege to speak on the second reading of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. What I say tonight I say in the public interest. The basis of a financial system is confidence and trust. The reason that this measure was initially introduced last year was a total fall in confidence in the world banking system not just in New Zealand but throughout the world. We saw that manifest itself in the failure of many finance companies. Reference was made this afternoon to I think some 16 finance companies. Well over 30 finance companies went into receivership or a moratorium. I have spoken at length on this subject over the last 6 months. 
Tonight I would like to talk about one specific finance company and about the issue of confidence and trust—trust in the financial system. Mr Cunliffe in his first reading speech talked about the banking inquiry that the Opposition organised. He referred to the front page of the  
New Zealand Herald  
business section of 15 July calling on the Government to support that inquiry. It is interesting that on that same page of the business section tucked down in the bottom left-hand corner there was an article about a company called Strategic Finance. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: What’s the headline? 
JOHN BOSCAWEN 
: The headline is “Strategic warns of $98m loss”. The article is about a finance company that presented a proposal for a moratorium to its investors last December and it set out a case for those investors to support that moratorium. Its base forecast—its base case—was that its investors would be repaid in full and would get a full repayment of interest. So they were to get 100c in the dollar of principal plus interest. 
Some 7 months after that moratorium was put in place Strategic Finance told the market that it was now anticipating that it would lose $98 million but it still believed it could meet its commitments. But it did say that its accounts were subject to final audit and that the loss could well change when the audit certificates were completed. Just over a week ago Strategic Finance announced that in fact its loss was some $175 million. To put that into context I understand that the deposit holders—the holders of debentures; the creditors—of Strategic Finance are owed some $400 million. So since last December Strategic Finance has been telling its investors its creditors that its financial position has declined by some $175 million—by roughly 40 percent of its loan book. I wonder how New Zealand investors can have confidence in investing in such companies which is important. The Minister of Finance said this afternoon that it is important that New Zealand has a strong non-bank sector. 
Let me tell members what concerns me even more about the Strategic Finance situation. There was an article in the  
Sunday Star-Times 
 as recently as Sunday of this week referring to Strategic Finance and the Nelson investor John Lacey. One of the issues that Mr Lacey raises is the salaries being paid to the directors of Strategic Finance. I believe that the chief executive is quoted as receiving something like $500000 and a number of other staff as receiving salaries of in excess of $200000. 
I wish that was the worst of it but I have been told in recent times that the situation is actually a lot worse than that. Strategic Finance lends on first mortgages and on second mortgages but I am told that in its lending it has preferred creditors. If one likes the second mortgage is broken into two parts—Part A and Part B—and those people who fund the top part of the second mortgage are in essence preferred creditors. These people might be called friends of Strategic Finance who have advanced money in the knowledge that they have a prior charge over other bondholders. I am reliably told that these so-called preferred creditors have been receiving an interest rate of 17 percent up until very recently. At a time when the general creditors have been receiving nothing and are losing their capital a group of creditors is achieving a 17 percent return. That money is being paid at the expense of mum and dad investors. Essentially those investors know that the company they lent money to invests in first and second mortgages but I believe it is not clear to them that in the case of a second mortgage they actually rank behind a preferred creditor. In effect mum and dad investors are lending on a third mortgage. I wonder how many of the people who invested in Strategic Finance were aware that on some of their loans they were essentially lending as third mortgage creditors. I wonder whether they would have voted for the moratorium if they had realised that they had that level of prior charge. 
I am told that there may well be shareholders and certainly directors or people associated with directors who hold a privileged position as preferred creditors. I have looked through the Strategic Finance prospectus. It talks about prior charges to the Bank of Scotland International. There may well be evidence in the accounts that points to those prior charges; I have not been able to find it yet. I would have thought that had that been the case perhaps someone in the media might have disclosed it. I may be wrong but I cannot find it. It concerns me also that when the bondholders go along to an extraordinary meeting to vote on a moratorium they do not realise that there is a group of people who vote equally with them but who have a preferred status. Why would the people who have that preferred status not vote for the moratorium if the moratorium is to cement their preferred status and to keep the company trading so that they may get a higher return than the average mum and dad investor? I believe that the mums and dads who voted at that Strategic Finance moratorium meeting did not have a chance because they were a lower class of creditor. 
It saddens me a great deal that many thousands of New Zealanders—mums and dads; a lot of elderly people—have lost money in finance companies. Some of those finance companies have been very well run but a lot of them have not. The Hon Lianne Dalziel talked about the protections that the current Government is putting in place and the protections that the previous Government put in place. I know that there will be an inquiry at the Commerce Committee level into the practices of finance companies. But we will not address the real problem until we address the issue of confidence and trust. If what I have been told is true and I have no reason to believe that it is not I wonder how those people who invested in Strategic Finance can have the confidence and the trust to deal with other companies in the future. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I rise to take a call on the second reading of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. Before addressing the bill in particular I will add to some of the comments made by Mr Boscawen. I hope the inquiry being undertaken into finance companies looks at some of the related party transactions of some of the finance companies. I will be interested to see what the inquiry finds in relation to any of the personnel who were involved in those transactions which were effectively fraudulent related party transactions whereby finance companies were getting money off people then lending it to themselves in other guises in high-risk ventures sometimes with limited liability so that if the loan could not be repaid by the corporate borrower that was related to them there was no recourse to the personal covenant of the person who was behind the company. If it transpires that that was a pattern of behaviour and it further transpires that the individuals who were involved were some of the individuals who were involved in similar transactions in the last crash in the late 1980s then I would suggest that some of our regulatory agencies like the Serious Fraud Office should take a close look at themselves and see whether they did their duty during that period. It is all very well to be wise with the benefit of hindsight but some of those agencies had a duty to be looking into those issues before they were obvious to everyone. So I agree with some of the things that Mr Boscawen was saying. 
But having said that I point out that we also need to be careful that we do not tar everyone with the same brush because just as there were some irresponsible finance companies there were also some reasonable finance companies that acted responsibly. It is a truism that no financial institution can withstand a run on the fund. That is true of a finance company; it is also true of a bank. I think banks in the fallout from the international financial crisis have at times been a little bit cute in pretending that they have been immune from the effects of a run on the bank and in pretending that people would not have had their money at risk in banks. Although it is true that that money might not have been as at risk in a bank as it might have been in some finance companies it is also true that were it not for the Government guarantees that were provided at both the wholesale and retail levels there could have been a run on the banks. Those banks could no more have withstood that than a finance company could have withstood a run. 
So it was necessary for the prior Government to intervene and to provide some certainty to lenders and to depositors in banks and in other non-bank financial institutions to ensure that they did not get so frightened that they all withdrew their money at once. That would have caused the demise of the banks and the finance sector it would have caused a loss to all of the depositors but it would have also caused the wheels of commerce to grind to a halt to the detriment of the economy in a wider sense and not just to the detriment of those who had invested in deposits in those banks and finance companies. 
Having said that I return to the issue of the distortions caused by guarantee schemes such as this. I note that one of the objectives contained in the general policy statement in this bill that the Government has introduced is to minimise economic distortions and to ensure in the credit markets that we have properly priced risk—what it calls “well-priced credit markets”. It is a sad reality that whenever we have a guarantee scheme like this we have distortions. There are distortions in the market that are unavoidable. One of the distortions we have here is that collective investment schemes are not eligible to have a guarantee despite the fact that the nature of the underlying transaction is very similar to other schemes that are not collective investment schemes. These are essentially deposits made by people in things like unit trusts or group investment funds. The money is invested by people in the fund and then invested by the fund in mortgages often first mortgages over land. 
Those sorts of credit instruments are more secure than a finance company investment because a finance company investment is generally a first or second-rating debenture stock which often gives a second-tier interest in securities behind other creditors whereas some of these group investment funds and unit trusts which are backed by first-level mortgages give the investor a trust interest in the mortgage. If we look through the paper we see that they are effectively obtaining a first-mortgage interest to secure their deposit. There is nothing that is more secure than that. It is possible to have a widespread depression in credit markets and people who invest in first mortgage - based securities will suffer a loss if the value of those securities decreases but they will never suffer a total loss. We are finding in some of the finance companies though that if we have a second-ranked security our security interest ranks behind the first debenture holder and therefore a depositor can be without any effective security and lose all of his or her money. 
If we look at those two comparisons—the mortgage-backed security compared with the finance company investment—we would say that the mortgage-backed security is a lot less risky. Yet because we have to have boundaries to a guarantee scheme like this the mortgage-backed security gets no guarantee; it cannot avail itself of the guarantee provisions of this scheme but the finance company can. We are causing a distortion in the market there; when we have had a run on mortgage-backed funds and because people cannot avail themselves of the Government guarantee they understandably say: “Well I will put my money where I can get the Government guarantee. Even though a first mortgage might be better than an investment in a finance company facility I will put my money with the finance company rather than with the mortgage-backed investment which is not covered by the guarantee.” 
I mention that in some detail because it shows the sorts of distortions that are unavoidable if we have a Crown guarantee such as this. It points to why we should be trying to get beyond these Crown guarantees and get out of the market eventually because in my opinion we want to have a sound secondary market and not be reliant only on banks. There are a number of reasons why that is important. One reason relates to the fact that the major banks in New Zealand are all overseas-owned. So the profits they earn are generally repatriated overseas and are lost to our economy. Indeed a large part of New Zealand’s current account deficit now is the invisibles—both the interest we pay on the overseas loan-lines that are re-lent by banks in New Zealand and also the profit margins they earn on those loan portfolios that are currently repatriated overseas. It is desirable that we have a set of regulatory affairs in New Zealand that enables our New Zealand - based financial institutions to grow. They ought to be competitive in the New Zealand market and they ought not to have competitive disadvantage as a consequence of regulatory policy settings. 
If we look at the fees to be charged to those who avail themselves of the retail deposit guarantee scheme we see that different rates will be charged according to the different risk that is perceived. The risk is lowest for those that have the highest credit-rating. So if a finance company has a triple A rating then the rate charged for the guarantee will be 15 basis points or 0.15 percent per annum. But if a finance company has only a B rating then the rate will be 1.5 percent or 150 basis points. People might think that that makes sense for finance companies but if they look at what is happening in respect of banks and building societies— 
Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER 
: There is far too much noise coming from the Government benches. I am having difficulty hearing the speaker. 
Hon DAVID PARKER 
: —they will see that there is quite a range there too. The reality is that the only institutions that are big enough to get the high rating used by the rating agencies—up around double A or better—are the very largest of financial institutions. Again we are preferring the very largest of financial institutions which happen to be overseas-owned banks over some very important New Zealand institutions like smaller building societies. I would like to see some consideration being given to changing that fee structure because I really do not think that it is in New Zealand’s long-term interest that we are giving more competitive advantage to the largest banks and disadvantaging our building societies. Thank you; overall though I support this bill. 
Bill read a second time. 
In Committee 
Part 1 Preliminary provisions 
CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
: 
 I rise to speak to Part 1 of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. This is obviously the Committee stage and questions have been raised by one or two previous speakers about why there will be no select committee process for this bill. I will quickly touch on that first—because as you will note Mr Chairman Part 1 is quite a small part. 
Quite simply this bill potentially has commercial impact on the equity the share price and the debt price not only of New Zealand institutions but of institutions around the world particularly the parent institutions of some of the banks in New Zealand. I ask members to imagine the bill going through our normal select committee process with submitters arguing about what the various ratings and costings should be. I can understand why someone would like that process but this bill is quite particular and we do note that when the guarantee scheme was first initiated according to the underlying rules and regulations here it did not go through any select committee process. It was brought in under urgent circumstances by the previous administration as speakers have noted during the first and second readings. 
So it seems somewhat unusual that something that is more of a voluntary extension supposedly needs to go through a select committee process. The imperative is that the markets are closed at least in New Zealand but members may notice that some debt prices moved around quite substantially when the media discussed whether the deposit guarantee scheme would be extended. 
Another point is that a previous speaker thought that the current scheme ends in about 4 weeks’ time. In fact it ends on 12 October 2010 so it ends in 4 weeks and 1 year. That might seem a minor matter but it is essential to what is being implemented here. Again this is an extension of about 14 months in about 13 months’ time. 
Again I know we are in Committee but I note that the scheme was brought in to ensure liquidity in the market. Liquidity was needed to keep money moving around to keep loans and to keep the velocity of money in the economy happening because as we recall it was frozen at the time and there was no liquidity out there whatsoever. That was the imperative reason why the scheme was brought in and interestingly this now addresses the difference between the Australian scheme of about 3 years at the time and the New Zealand scheme of 2 years. But it recognises that things have changed and that the risks to the taxpayer and the institutions themselves hopefully will have played out somewhat. 
Again a previous speaker seemed to miss the point that the scheme is voluntary for larger banks. So they are getting no subsidy whatsoever and in fact the charges for them released by the Minister 2 weeks or so ago were higher than what they are currently paying under the existing deposit guarantee scheme. So they will be making a rational economic decision as to whether they are included in the extended scheme. Hopefully at that time as far as the taxpayer is concerned the larger banks will not be in the scheme because they feel no need to be. Hopefully liquidity will be back in the system and things will be moving towards normality. If that was the case the underlying contingent liability on the books of $120 billion would probably move down to something like $30 billion. From the taxpayer’s point of view that is not a bad deal. I note that members opposite are voting for the bill and I am sure they have some issues to raise. 
I have one final point in relation to Part 1. The mortgage-backed securities that the member was talking about were allegedly supposed to be matched books. So if the funding on the liability side the term and the maturity of it matched the asset side it did not matter too much whether they had guarantees because they had matched funding books. So they lent long and borrowed short and therein lies the problem of much of the New Zealand financial system which this bill plus the changes to the non-bank deposit takers which are coming in within the next year will start to address. Thank you Mr Chair. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I rise to take a call in the Committee stage of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I want to focus on two particular issues: first the level of consultation on the bill and second the costs in relation to the role of the banks. 
Let us begin with the costs because that issue—the participation or not of the banks and whether that makes a difference—has been raised by several of the speakers from Labour. So far we have been discussing that in qualitative terms. We have said it would be better in principle if those banks that were benefiting from the wholesale guarantee scheme were also in the retail scheme to spread the risk and I presume from the point of view of the fiscal system and the Crown to ensure that there was adequate fee revenue. But we have not yet gone into the details of what that fee revenue is so I thought it would be instructive to look at some of the numbers. 
Fees to date on the retail guarantee scheme in the regulatory impact statement are $87.4 million which is slightly more modest than the $119 million per annum forecast in the original proposal. Here is the rub: of the $87.4 million $81.9 million is fees from banks and only $5.5 million is fees from non-bank financial institutions. So if the banks are out which this Government is prepared to allow the revenue stream to the Crown collapses and arguably the Crown is left holding an elevated average level of risk in the face of a much reduced level of revenue offset. 
The position is even worse if one looks at the interrelationship between the retail guarantee scheme and the wholesale guarantee scheme. These numbers are really quite significant if we go back to the original projections. For the wholesale guarantee scheme overwhelmingly from the bank rather than the non-bank sector the figures are $300 million in the 2008-09 financial year; $450 million—and this is just the fees to the Crown—in 2009-10; $400 million in 2010-11; and $1.15 billion between 2011-12 and 2016-17. That is a total of $2.3 billion in revenue to the Crown in fees from financial institutions for the wholesale scheme alone. It is little wonder then that the banks are perhaps keen not to participate in some of those streams at their choice and the parent banks in Australia we understand are considering their options. 
The point is simply that if the Government is going to allow banks to pick and choose which of the schemes they will maintain a presence in the fee revenue to the Crown will collapse and the taxpayer will be left supporting a riskier bundle of assets. That is a significant issue and I call on the Minister of Finance to take a call to defend that and to say whether and how the remaining revenue streams will sufficiently offset the risk that the Crown is taking. 
There is another issue that has been much the subject of debate in the latter part of the first reading. It is the question raised by the Hon Lianne Dalziel about lack of consultation. Yes it is true as I have previously stated that the Minister has allowed officials to brief Opposition spokespeople and we welcome that. But as my colleague has pointed out that is a poor substitute for a proper select committee process where interested parties the public and members from around the Chamber get to ask formal questions on the record of officials and to deal with the matter in submissions. We do not believe that with the existing scheme going as long as October 2010 there was a necessity to rush this bill through in urgency without at least a limited select committee process. We think that is a matter of regret. 
I guess there is a growing feeling in the community that one of the hallmarks of this Government is either the refusal to consult or the setting up of processes best described as sham consultation. A couple of examples might serve to illustrate the point. The first is of course the Auckland legislation in several tranches. The first one which terminates the existing territorial authorities was rammed through under urgency with no consultation and no select committee process. It terminated the existing institutions thereby making change a veritable fait accompli. The second issue was the subject of the Maori seats for the Auckland super-city. A special committee was set up but the Government did not even refer to the results of that select committee because it had not yet reported. The decision was made in Cabinet without reference to the report and poor old John Carter a decent bloke was left presiding over a select committee that was not a real process. He the Minister responsible for the bill— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The member will come back to the bill. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: A further example of the lack of consultation is the adult and community education cuts—a matter that I am sure the Government will— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: Can you talk about this bill. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: The reason this is relevant is that this bill is yet another example of the Government dispensing with the select committee process at its behest at its fiat saying: “The poor little public does not need to be troubled with the details of this. We the learned and important members of the Government benches shall decide for the peasants and inform them when the decision is made.” Unfortunately those peasants vote; those people vote and it is very very important— 
Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman 
: Peasants—like they did in the last election! 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: That was a quote from the Government. I say to Mr Coleman the electoral maestro of Mt Albert that I would be rather careful if I were him in this regard. 
I sum up the position as follows. The objectives of this bill are reasonable. The option that the Government has chosen which is to broadly extend under somewhat tighter circumstances the life of the retail scheme to match that across the Tasman is a reasonable position to take. I note that the Government is not foreclosing on the option of a permanent deposit guarantee scheme when further research has been done and we look forward to consultation on that matter. 
The issue is in the fine print. The regulatory impact statement was not publicly available. It is on Treasury’s website and people can go to that but it was not publicly available with the bill. The select committee process has not happened at all and we are doing this under urgency for something that does not fall due until October next year. It is not clear why that has been required. The Government has not maintained crucially the position of the previous Government to very politely but firmly say to the banking sector that if it wants the benefits of the wholesale scheme it should be in the retail scheme as well. The numbers prove why that matters. Ninety percent of the revenue to the Crown that covers the Crown’s risk exposure—around $180 billion of risk exposure—is through the banks’ participation in the scheme not the non-bank finance sector’s participation. 
Something we are all agreed on is that the non-bank finance sector needs further work. Of course it was the previous Government that brought in legislation to expand the oversight of the Reserve Bank into that sector and we hope that the current Government will continue the work to clean up and tidy up the non-bank financial institutions. The question that we will find out from hindsight is whether the BB rating and the move to require participation on that basis will be a step too far for some. We hope that the Government will continue to work constructively with the sector and with the Opposition to iron out those speed bumps and we look forward to working with the Government on the long-term deposit guarantee scheme if that occurs. Thank you Mr Chairman. 
AMY ADAMS (National—Selwyn) 
: 
 I rise to take a call on Part 1 of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and before I start I really have to comment on the speech made by the member who has just resumed his seat David Cunliffe. He purported to make quite some mileage out of the fact that this bill is being passed under urgency and he purports to be quite concerned about this. That concern does not extend obviously to his not voting for it. To me the fact that that member does not understand the urgency that relates to this measure notwithstanding that we are 12 months out from the expiry date really highlights his lack of grasp of this area. Retail deposits are not decided on the day they fall due. The retail market in deposits needs to know now what the situation will be 12 months out and preferably 18 and 24 months out. 
Anyone in the financial market understands that this matter is urgent so we need to process this legislation quickly. Already the sector is calling out for some guidance. Already we are seeing that decisions are not being made and that investor confidence is starting to flag because that guidance is not there. We have to process this bill as a matter of urgency and if that member had a better grasp of financial reality and the reality of financial retail deposits he would understand that. Clearly he does not; none the less his purported concern does not extend to not supporting the bill. Furthermore I would have thought that the fact that there is unanimous support for this bill across the Chamber would tend to suggest that it is quite appropriate for it to be processed in this way. I would have thought that those members would be supporting the process but if they want to score points that is fine. 
The bill is focused on ensuring depositor confidence. As I said in my first reading contribution it is this country’s stable financial system and stable banking system that has enabled us to avoid the worst part of the global recession which the rest of the world is experiencing. We are lucky in this country that we have a relatively stable financial sector— 
Hon David Cunliffe 
: So? 
AMY ADAMS 
: —and it is important that we work to maintain confidence in it. The member opposite says: “So?”. It is no big deal to him whether there is stability and confidence in the market. Those members opposite could not care less because they do not understand that side of it. We have to have a stable system and a viable banking and non-banking sector. That is what this bill does and that is why the scheme has been extended. That is why National set aside its political point-scoring when the scheme was put in place last year and that is why National now in Government is acting quickly to ensure that there will be ongoing confidence in the scheme as New Zealand develops its path out of this recession. 
As the New Zealand recovery continues to consolidate we want to ensure that that deposit guarantee remains in place so that we do not see a loss of confidence in New Zealand and so that we do not see investors looking to move their money into Australian equivalents which would continue to have a guarantee in place. It is important in our close trans-Tasman relationship that we work on similar terms in this market. We have always tried to benchmark ourselves to Australia to a certain extent and there is a real risk in my view that if we had left the expiry date at October of next year then we would have seen a preference for many of our investors to invest across the Tasman. As I have already mentioned if we lose deposits in New Zealand we lose liquidity for our businesses we lose jobs and we lose productivity. It means mums and dads not being able to feed the kids or pay the mortgage because they have lost their jobs because the business could not get funding. There is a real social cost to not getting this right so that is why I applaud our Government for taking urgent steps to put this legislation in place. 
I turn to one particular aspect of Part 1 and that is clause 3 “Interpretation” which gives us some important criteria around what the Act will do. The lawyers in the Chamber will know that the interpretation clause which is much overlooked by laypeople is in fact one of the most important clauses of any bill. I want to look in particular at the terms “eligible entity” and “debt security”. Under this bill the Minister of Finance is able to set criteria for the eligible entities and I think we need to be conscious of the fact that the Minister in doing so has to be clear that it is necessary or expedient in the public interest. I think the words “necessary or expedient in the public interest” are the key words. This whole legislation this whole retail guarantee scheme is about working in the public interest. As I have said a stable banking system the confidence of mum and dad investors and the continuation of liquidity in our financial markets are key for New Zealand. They are key for our economy and they are central to the public interest. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I want to return to the issue of consultation which I raised in the second reading debate on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I have in front of me the 25-page regulatory impact statement which I downloaded from Treasury’s website during the dinner break and which of course was not included in detail in the bill largely because it would dominate the bill as the bill is so small. The executive summary of the regulatory impact statement is all that appears in the bill itself. I think it is important that we have a discussion about what we were actually seeking which was something that Treasury itself recommended in the regulatory impact statement. We have just heard from the member Amy Adams that somehow we are asking for a full 6 months at a select committee which we are not. We are simply asking for what Treasury recommended as an appropriate process given that there has not been adequate consultation. 
Let me read paragraph 65 of the regulatory impact statement: “The proposals for policy changes to the retail DGS were developed by The Treasury and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand in consultation with the Ministry of Economic Development (including the Companies Office) and the Securities Commission. These views have been reflected in the policy development. Annex 3 provides further detail on the issues raised in consultation and how these were dealt with.” These agencies developed the legislation that we have before us today. I actually believe that parliamentarians have a right to hear from those officials to be fully briefed on all the detail and to have an opportunity to debate some of the decisions that have been made. I am not 100 percent sure about them and I think that when we go through the detail of this bill and get some feedback from the Minister of Finance we will find that some issues need to be talked through a little bit more than this bill and this process allow. 
The regulatory impact statement goes on to state: “The decision was made not to consult proactively on the proposals with the public. This is due to: officials already having a reasonable amount of information about stakeholder views from regular interactions (summarised in Annex 3).” I have now had an opportunity to read annex 3 which I had not had when I spoke in the second reading debate. Annex 3 creates further difficulty for me because it talks about some of the feedback that the Government has in fact had in respect of concerns raised by both the banks and the non-bank sector. I want to highlight a couple of these concerns and I think it is important that the Minister responds to them. 
The first is the questions around distortions that were being created by the deposit guarantee scheme. My colleague the Hon David Parker raised those concerns in his second reading contribution. The regulatory impact statement states that “many non-banks are finding it difficult to attract deposits after the end of the guarantee period (creating a ‘wall’ of maturity). A business grouping has expressed concerns about the distortions to financial markets created by the DGS.” When the Government responds to this Treasury says: “The extended DGS is designed to minimise economic distortions by having much more risk sensitive pricing. It is designed with a definite end date”—it has gone from 2010 to 2011 so not much has changed except for the actual date; the definite end date was already there—“to help reduce the risk of another wall of maturities forming before the end of the guarantee period.” This means that there will be no lending after 2011 from the mezzanine finance sector. That alarms me because essentially the Government is admitting that this bill will simply delay the problem. 
I am not opposed to the idea of extending the deposit guarantee on the basis that it matches with that of Australia. I was also interested to see that the banks do not actually regard themselves as at any risk now from flight to Australia which is very interesting because that certainly was not the view at the time that the original scheme was put into place. There was a real concern that if we did not put a scheme into place—with unfortunately the lack of sophistication in our investing market—people would be persuaded to put their deposits over the Tasman in order to ensure that they were covered by a deposit guarantee. This is certainly a particular concern. 
STUART NASH (Labour) 
: 
 I stand to support the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. There were two reasons for the scheme being undertaken by the Labour Government in October 2008. The one that most people have talked about was the desire to maintain liquidity at a time of immense tightness in global cash flows. I am aware that the BNZ was very close to implementing its contingency strategy on how to operate without access to foreign funds. We saw what happened when there was a rush on the funds of finance companies—they collapsed. As my colleagues have spoken about the first charge of the Labour Government was to provide a Government guarantee to depositors to ensure that there would not be a run on the funds of banks. 
As the Hon David Parker said had there been a rush on the funds of banks similar to the rush on the funds of finance companies the New Zealand economy would have been in grave danger of experiencing the sort of collapse we had seen overseas in Europe and in the United States or perhaps of being in even worse shape than that. Of course the mess in the UK ended up costing the British Government significant amounts of money and it was forced for all intents and purposes to nationalise large chunks of the banking sector. The whole argument about banks being too big to fail was belied by the fact that the UK Government nationalised much of the banking sector at a huge cost. And let us not talk about the situation facing US investors. 
We on this side of the House understand the importance of a strong banking sector. It annoys me a little bit when I hear members of the National Government standing over there preach at us as if we do not know anything about finance we do not know anything about the economy and we do not know anything about the banking sector. After all the Labour Government is the only Government in two generations to lower the corporate tax rate. I would say that the small to medium business sector would say the Labour Government was the friend of small to medium businesses. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: That party voted against it. 
STUART NASH 
: That is dead right. Mr Coleman actually voted against dropping the corporate tax rate. It was amazing. 
The reason that the Labour Government introduced the scheme and more specifically that Dr Michael Cullen worked all of a Sunday evening to get it up and running within 24 hours was to shore up deposits within the banks to match what was happening in the Australian sector and therefore to prevent a possible run on funds and a collapse of the New Zealand banking sector. We understand that. But there was also another reason that the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme was put in place and it seems that the National members are totally ignoring it. They have not mentioned it once. I will quote Dr Cullen: “The government is offering this deposit guarantee to address the current situation of international financial market turbulence and it will be for a two-year term in the first instance. This will give time to see how well international financial markets stabilise in the months ahead.” That reinforces what I was talking about—shoring up the banking system. But he went on to say: “The deposit guarantee is designed to give assurance to New Zealand depositors. The New Zealand banking system remains sound. We want to ensure that ordinary New Zealanders feel that their deposits are safe in the current uncertain international financial market conditions.” I think we must not forget that the other reason why the retail deposit guarantee scheme was set up was to protect ordinary New Zealanders from losing their hard-earned funds. That is one of the reasons why I support this bill. I would hate to see ordinary New Zealanders having lost their funds in the finance companies lose their funds in the banks. This bill is about providing confidence not only to the international credit sector but also to ordinary mum and dad grandma and grandpa Kiwis. 
When it comes to the matter of urgency I hear what the National members have said but I just do not buy it. The National members and more specifically Ms Amy Adams and Mr Craig Foss say that our not enacting this bill now might have a distortionary effect on the financial markets or more specifically the banking sector. So what we have here is on one side the rule of law and democracy which Labour members support where the bill would be taken through the full select committee process versus the banking sector. What does one favour? The National Government has said it favours the banking sector. It comes before democracy before the right of the people—and it is a fundamental right of our democratic system—to stand before their elected parliamentarians to present submissions on what should happen to the scheme. It is 13 months away before the scheme expires. Ms Amy Adams said we are debating the bill under urgency because people demand certainty. If it is so important— 
JO GOODHEW (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) 
: 
 I note that the Minister in the chair the Hon Bill English has yet to respond to any of the questions that have been raised by the Opposition in respect of a bill that is not going to a select committee and that the Government sees as a very important bill yet we already have closure motions being put forward by National members. I suggest Mr Chairperson that you should not listen to those closure motions for a while yet. 
I have a question to ask the Minister in the chair about how he plans to get New Zealand out of these guarantees. Although the regulatory impact statement makes the point that this is necessary and that it seeks to minimise distortions in credit markets there is no doubt that it is distortionary and there is no doubt that it inhibits the operation of parts of the market. There is no doubt that it advantages some institutions relative to others and there is no doubt that it creates a distortion in that finance companies that are higher risk than banks are none the less guaranteed. Although the payment that they have to make for the guarantee facility might to some extent vary to take account of that I suspect that we have seen a flattening of rates in New Zealand as a consequence of the ability of some finance companies to avail themselves of the Crown guarantee. I think it is important that we see a way forward when there is a plan for either a permanent guarantee scheme which would be very difficult in my view or we have to transition away from any guarantee scheme. 
I say to the Minister that we currently have a scheme that applies only to debt securities. Debt securities have a legislative definition that is to a certain extent like all definitions a little bit arbitrary. The arbitrariness can be illustrated from the difference between something that is nominally a debt security and something that is nominally a collective investment. As I have mentioned previously investors in mortgage-based contributory mortgages or mortgage-based group investment funds or unit trusts cannot avail themselves of this guarantee scheme. That has led effectively to a rush on what are very secure forms of lending. They are mortgage-backed securities and they are far less risky than finance company investments on the whole. Yet because of the way in which there has to be a boundary around a guarantee scheme such as this one which is found in Part 1 in the definition and is limited to debt securities and which does not refer to participatory securities and collective investment schemes effectively through this definition we are limiting the guarantee to finance companies banks and building societies but investments of money that are giving people a trust interest in a first mortgage are not covered by the guarantee scheme. As a consequence that important part of the market—less important in New Zealand than it is in Australia but none the less an important part even in New Zealand—is shrinking. Who is that to the relative advantage of? It is to the relative disadvantage of New Zealand because of the ownership structure of our major financial institutions. It is mainly to the advantage of the banking sector. We know that our banking sector is predominantly overseas owned. Therefore we see further concentration of profits into the non - New Zealand - owned part of the banking sector to the disadvantage of New Zealand - owned parts of the sector. I ask the Minister to take a call to give some understanding to the Committee as to how when we come to the end of the extended period of the scheme he sees New Zealand transitioning away from the scheme. 
I will also talk a little bit about the proposed fee structure. It is relevant to Part 1 because the fee structure arises under the guarantee scheme and the guarantee funding facility. The terms of those facilities include fees that are charged to the recipient of the guarantee. My second question for the Minister relates to the breakdown of fees. I acknowledge that the Minister has a very difficult task and that he wants to see that the guarantee properly takes into account the relative risk of different investments. It is appropriate that riskier investments pay a higher fee for the guarantee because it is more likely that the guarantee will be called upon. For that reason I can see why finance companies should have a higher fee charged than a stable bank but unfortunately the metric that is chosen for the investment of fees is Standard and Poor’s - type ratings. The higher ratings are available only to very large institutions. We know that the only very large institutions in New Zealand are overseas banks. All of the smaller institutions that cannot get that high AA rating by virtue of their size including some very secure building societies smaller institutions like some of our smaller building societies and some of our better finance companies will never get a very high rating. As a consequence they will always be paying a higher guarantee fee. 
I ask the Minister to justify how that situation is in New Zealand’s interest. Although we have to have regard to relative risk Standard and Poor’s ratings—which internationally have been found wanting in the last year or two at least in some of the markets that have been rated by the agencies—are a too simplistic way to look at it. We do not want to have a system that further entrenches the existing advantages of the major banks to the detriment of the New Zealand economy because we know that for those major banks all of their profits are repatriated overseas except to the extent that they reinvest in expansion in their New Zealand business. There are a lot of profits which are a large contributor to our current account deficit and we do not want to see that contribution to our current account deficit grow. It concerns me that the way in which this fee structure is proposed will further entrench the advantages of banks and disadvantage the smaller New Zealand institutions including our smaller banks like SBS and also the Taranaki savings bank. I would like to think that the fee structure could reflect the fact that although under Standard and Poor’s rating terms those entities are not seen to be as stable in practice I think they are no more at risk than the larger banking institutions. Indeed those larger banking institutions may well lend to higher multiples of equity than some of the smaller banks. I hope the Minister takes a call to respond to those two points. 
CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I am disappointed that the Minister of Finance has not responded to the questions we have put to him. I think it is important that he responds. The question that I really have been looking for an answer to is why we cannot have a limited select committee process for the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. That was recommended by Treasury in the regulatory impact statement. It is not often that Treasury recommends something and the Government simply turns a blind eye to it unless there is a reason. But we have no reason; nothing has been presented to us by any of the Government members who have been asked to get up and speak on that particular matter. For them to seek closure motions after a very short debate and to have no response at all from the Minister is quite strange. I am surprised because I thought this Minister was capable of responding to the questions. 
I will go back to the details about the consultation which are in annex 3 of the regulatory impact statement. Banks raised their concern about the extension of the scheme saying there was “mixed support for extending the Scheme to match the Australian scheme … Banks tend to think it is not necessary for them and risk of depositor flight to Australia is low. Finance companies”—surprise surprise—“tend to support extension. Some Credit Unions have chosen not to opt into the DGS because they have a relatively sticky depositor base.” That is obvious. The regulatory impact statement continues: “Entities operating outside of the DGS (e.g. fund managers) are concerned about the competitive disadvantage that the Crown guarantee puts them at.” That is exactly the point that has been raised by the Hon David Parker and must be answered in this Committee tonight as the bill progresses under urgency. 
I raise another issue that was also raised in the various engagements with stakeholders as Treasury and the Reserve Bank have described them. A workers union and an economic thinktank—they are not described by name—have said that this bill is an opportunity to attach conditions on institutions’ behaviour for the extension. The two particular examples that were raised with the officials were employment protection and mortgage holiday provisions. I can understand why unions and any economic thinktank worth its salt would want employment protection at a time like this and also that mortgage holiday provisions are absolutely vital to enable some people to survive the first redundancy their family will have experienced in a lifetime. That genuine concern has been expressed to me as a constituency MP and I am sure constituency MPs on the other side of the Chamber will know exactly what I am talking about. 
I will read the officials’ response to that suggestion. They said: “We have assessed the idea of introducing conditions on the guarantee but consider such conditions may undermine the objectives of the guarantee e.g. it may stop firms downsizing when that sort of change is necessary to ensure their future viability.” That may well be in terms of the direction the Government wants to point some of the non-bank sector to but when we are talking about the banks I understand very well why certain unions would be pushing for a removal of the risk of outsourcing to other countries. The banking sector has seen a lot of that. If the Government is to provide this guarantee we are talking about the taxpayers of New Zealand basically underwriting performance in this regard. It is important that we have a bit of a debate around these conditions. 
The mortgage holiday provisions are another issue. As I say that issue is not even responded to by the officials which is a bit unfortunate because we are trying to protect depositors over the period of uncertainty that has been created by the global economic environment. That is exactly what the banks would be protecting by giving a mortgage repayment holiday on favourable terms. That in itself is a protection that could be offered during this period of economic uncertainty. It is unfortunate that we have not really been given an opportunity to debate these matters. That is what a short time—1 or 2 days—at a select committee would enable us to do. 
STUART NASH (Labour) 
: 
 I will talk about some of the clauses in the regulatory impact statement of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. I will also pose a couple of questions in the next 5 minutes to the Minister of Finance in the hope that he will take a call and answer these questions. As has been mentioned I think this is a very important bill and it has fiscal implications. It has wide-ranging investor and saver implications and I think all of New Zealand would like to hear what the Minister of Finance has to say on those things. 
As my colleague the Hon David Cunliffe mentioned the amount of the fees collected under the current fee structure to date is approximately $87.4 million per annum. Imagine I ask my colleagues how much of that $87.4 million collected in fees for the retail guarantee scheme could have gone to the adult and community education scheme. If the Government put $13 million into adult and community education it would not be in the bother it is in at the moment. But anyway that is another story. One thing I will elaborate on which the regulatory impact statement talks about— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: A thoroughly different story. 
STUART NASH 
: It is another story but it is a very important story Mr Chairperson. One day we will talk about that. I found the regulatory impact statement on the Internet. It is not in the bill. It is not in the bill at all. If we want to know what this bill is about we have to go to the Internet which I do not think is a great process. 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: It would be all right if we had a select committee hearing. 
STUART NASH 
: Well we should have a select committee hearing really should we not? I will elaborate on a couple of points that my colleague the Hon David Parker talked about which relate to economic distortions. I will read a couple of things in this regulatory impact statement. “Economic distortions include encouraging guaranteed depositors and deposit taking institutions to make riskier investment decisions since the gains from these riskier decisions will be accrued by the depositors and deposit taking institutions while potential losses to depositors (of up to $1 million per depositor per institution) will be borne by the taxpayer. This is referred to as a ‘moral hazard’ problem. An example of this ‘moral hazard’ problem within the current DGS is that finance companies which tend to be involved in higher-risk and higher-return lending have grown their deposit books by approximately $880 million (19%) since the guarantee was introduced in October 2008. Before the guarantee the deposit books of many finance companies were shrinking. In some cases finance companies have used retail funding to replace their bank funding lines.” I think many New Zealanders would find this rather abhorrent considering how many ordinary Kiwis have lost their life savings through the mismanagement of depositors’ money. 
Let us look at the objectives in the regulatory impact statement. “The Government seeks a stable and economically efficient financial sector that supports growth in economic activity by minimising economic distortions while not exposing the Crown (and thus taxpayers) to undue fiscal costs or risks.” I think we all agree with that. “This requires a diversity of innovative financial service providers that are prudent in their lending decisions can adapt to changing circumstances and investors in these institutions that understand the risks involved and can price these risks accordingly. This reduces moral hazard ensuring well-priced credit markets. Ensuring a viable non-bank sector in the future is important to this end particularly as it provides competitive pressures upon banks and provides services in areas not otherwise provided.” This is what I talked about in my second reading speech when I discussed the differentiation between savers and investors. The vast majority of Kiwis who lost their money in finance companies were actually savers. They trusted Colin Meads Richard Long and all those characters— 
Hon Lianne Dalziel 
: Sir Colin Meads.  
STUART NASH 
: —sorry Sir Colin Meads—who said: “Invest in this.” Ma and pa who watched Colin Meads play his 55 tests said: “He knows what he is talking about. I will put my money”— 
Amy Adams 
: Solid as! 
STUART NASH 
: Good one! They said: “I will put my money in this.” The savers did that. I argue that the vast majority of Kiwis who lost their money were savers but I now contend that many people who put their money in finance companies—we are talking about $880 million worth of funds that have been invested which is an increase of 19 percent—are actually investors. They are not putting their money in there to save; they are putting their money there because they know it is under a Government guarantee. 
I want to know how the Government and the Minister of Finance believe that the Government will be able to extricate itself from the situation it has found itself in without a further run on non-bank funds like we saw with the collapse of the finance sector. It could be that once the Government guarantee is over people will pull their money out because it is a risky investment and they will put it back into a bank. That is a big concern and it invites the question: will we be back here in a year again debating under urgency an amendment to the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Act called the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Amendment Bill of 2010? 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 There have been a couple of questions. Firstly there has been the question of why the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill is going through the House in this form. There is a simple reason for that. It is the need for maximum certainty particularly in respect of listed entities and any institutions that may be under financial pressure currently. A judgment was made and I do not pretend that it is any more than a judgment that the process we are using is the best way to ensure that certainty. 
With regard to consultation through the mechanism of the Reserve Bank consultation with non-bank deposit takers over the new regulatory structure—actually there was a significant discussion with the sector about this particular issue over time—it became quite apparent that with only a bit more than a year to go until the end of the existing guarantee it was quite important for the Government to move with some speed to create certainty. Members might see in the regulatory impact statement a graph that shows the build-up of deposits against the end date of the guarantee. That was clearly going to become a pressure of instability in the sector. 
On balance the Government made the judgment that it should get on with making a decision about the extension of the guarantee and to execute that extension as quickly as is reasonable. The Government appreciates the support of Parliament in doing that. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 I will take the opportunity to respond to a couple of things the Minister said and then to do a wrap on some of the macro and debt issues that are covered in Part 1 under the term “debt security”. In respect of the first matter the Minister said in response to the Opposition that the reason we are in urgency and dispensing with any select committee process is to maximise certainty. There are two aspects of certainty. The first is in respect of timing and the other is certainty in respect of detail. It is certainly not as adequate for Parliament to debate this under urgency with no recourse to a select committee with no opportunity to hear the concerns of ordinary members of the public. They are the depositors as Mr Nash said who have in many cases lost their life-savings through failures in the non-bank finance sector. The questions that may be raised by the institutions themselves in public session which may or may not be the same as they have raised in private with the Reserve Bank deserve a fair hearing. As I said in my earlier intervention this Government is getting a bit of a name for sham consultation processes and it is a shame that this should be added to the list. 
The Minister of Finance mentioned consultation by the Reserve Bank. The issue with that is that the public cannot see it. The public is not exposed to the arguments for and against. The process is opaque. It is behind closed doors. The public is not even fully aware of what tools the Reserve Bank has at its disposal or the adequacy of those tools. But having said that the Opposition supports this bill because on balance notwithstanding those weaknesses it is important that we extend the scheme under controlled circumstances to match or approximately match the Australian scheme. Otherwise there could be a flow of funds potentially from institutions here to institutions across the Tasman that are covered by a deposit guarantee when ours are not. 
One aspect that has been debated in the Committee stage is the voluntary nature of the scheme and in particular the de-linking of the retail from the wholesale guarantee scheme. So it is instructive on page 10 of the regulatory impact statement to see these beautifully crafted words of bureaucratise: “The economic and stability pros and cons of delinking the retail and wholesale scheme are finely balanced including a possible variant of making it compulsory for some groups only (e.g. banks).” Well is that not what the Opposition has been saying? If those banks the self-touted pillars of security that the member opposite Amy Adams was keen to propound are providing 90 percent - plus of the breadth of assets that spreads risk and 90 percent - plus because of their size of the revenue streams to the Crown is the Crown not paradoxically exposing itself to a higher average level of risk if it allows them to opt out? 
In the end it brings us to the bottom line. This first part is about debt security. The debt we are talking about is private debt. It is overwhelmingly bank debt—90 percent - plus bank debt. How much? New Zealand’s GDP is around $140 billion to $150 billion. New Zealand’s gross debt is 140 percent of our gross domestic product. That is 140 percent in gross terms of our gross domestic product and it is rising at 10 percent per annum—that is 150 percent of gross domestic product in current trends; a year from now 160 percent if one rolls out 2 years. At what level does that become an unsustainable level of national debt? Compare that with the Crown’s balance sheet. The Government was perhaps rightly concerned to ensure that it did not get out of hand. We would too if we were on the Treasury benches. But it is not the main game in town nor is it the only responsibility of the Government of the day. The Government has its handle on the country’s most potent economic levers. The public elects a Government to manage the country’s book not just the Government’s book. Therein lay the weakness of this year’s Budget. It had much to say about the Government’s debt but nothing at all to say about the country’s debt which dwarfs it at 140 percent of GDP. Yes let us shrink it I say to the member opposite Craig Foss. It is 140 percent of GDP—and the Government’s debt is how much? In net terms it was zero. It was single-digit percents post-crash. 
AARON GILMORE (National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put 
Ayes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
Part 1 agreed to. 
Part 2 Continuance of Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 Part 2 of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill provides for the powers that allow the Minister to specify types of entities and criteria. It will allow the Minister of Finance to give a guarantee according to those criteria. It requires the Crown to assume creditors’ rights and sets out the responsibilities of payment in respect of guarantees. This is the meat in terms of the operations of the bill and in that regard it is appropriate for us to turn to the relevant assessment in the regulatory impact statement of the extension options. 
Three broad options were considered. One was a continuation of the status quo which we have described as the cold turkey option. It is the option that the scheme will terminate in October 2010. As one member opposite rightly pointed out the reason for having an early decision—although we believe the process should not have been as truncated as this—is to allow institutions to manage their books. The data is that about one-third to 40 percent of the debt is for a period shorter than 1 year in duration. About another third is for a period of between 1 year and 2 years and that third is now within the window of the closure of the current scheme. So it is appropriate that we are considering now the future of the scheme. 
The arguments in favour of allowing the scheme to go cold turkey at that point were that we would remove so-called distortions from the market whereby the risk to investors is masked because of the guarantee scheme—that the lame were covered as much as the only partly lame. The argument was put up that by having banks and non-bank institutions with different credit-ratings put together—albeit at slightly different interest rates—the risk and the return were blended and that that was opaque to the market. So that was the first argument. The second argument for going cold turkey was that it was the fastest way to reduce the exposure to risk of the Crown. 
If the Government is to be believed when it says the recession is over then it would seem sensible for it following its own philosophy to allow the banking sector to adjust to the new post-recession era by removing these guarantees altogether. However it has decided not to do that. The reasons for extending the scheme by one year are firstly to roughly match the timing of the extension to the duration of the Australian scheme thereby preventing a flow of funds from New Zealand institutions to those across the Ditch and secondly to ease the sector into a post-guarantee era and to more gently match the withdrawal of protection to what the sector may consider to be a slow and perhaps fragile recovery. 
We believe that the Government has been trying to have it both ways on the rhetoric of this recession. At the same time that the Minister of Finance has been saying the Government should never waste a good recession and that it should prepare for privatisation and for other radical measures like raising GST as soon as he can get the working-group to report on that—let us not waste a good crisis—he has also been telling us that gardens are growing the green shoots are up the sun is out spring is here and the worst has passed. Treasury has said it will be all hunky-dory with only 7.5 percent of people unemployed. That is only double what the figure was before the election! That is only 2 people losing their job their identity their family’s livelihood where it was one before the election—so there are serious serious consequences. 
That was the argument for a slower return to a post-guarantee world and on balance that is what the Government has gone with. We believe that it was the right decision. We believe that it is right to match our scheme with the Australian scheme and we think it is right to give the sector some time to adjust. We also think it is fair enough to have reasonably tight criteria so that we do not mask undue risk. Although we acknowledge that it is harder for small companies to get credit ratings we believe that there has to be some relatively objective measure of creditworthiness. That is kind of enough of a shared zone for us to vote for the bill. 
But we do have major reservations which show up in this part again about the role of the banks. It is our considered view that it would be more secure for the Crown in terms of the spread of risk and of less exposure to the Crown in terms of fiscal revenue streams if the banking sector were expected to be included in both the retail and the wholesale schemes. In taking both together the risk while being partly masked is bundled in a way that we believe adds more security to the system as a whole and protects the Crown from a revenue loss because the income stream is greater. As we said in a previous intervention the magnitude of potential loss is in the order of 95 percent bank and 5 percent non-bank. That really is a huge huge difference. So by allowing the banks to opt out the Government is concentrating the risk on the part of some of the smallest entities and vastly reducing what could be described as the premiums that are paid for that insurance. 
But at the end of the day the Opposition believes that mum and dad investors need to be protected. There have been enough families ruined and sadly tragically there have been too many suicides by ordinary New Zealanders whose lifesavings have been lost due to the inappropriate management of risk and companies being caught by the international recession. We certainly want to send our condolences to any families that have been so affected. It is therefore of paramount importance to us that New Zealanders have the protection of a scheme like this throughout the duration of the recession and the early phases of whatever recovery is coming and that is a key reason why we are supporting this bill. 
The technical complexity arises in Part 2 and my colleague the Hon Lianne Dalziel put very eloquently that we think more consultation here would have been appropriate. The Minister has said it was a judgment call and the Government thought it would get the bill through. The Opposition’s point of view is that even a 1-week process to allow a select committee to question officials and get matters on the public record would have been very very useful as we look back on this experiment if you like in years to come. 
But the bottom line is that there is no doubt that it is worth having a statutory power for the Minister of Finance to operate under and it is recognised that the only reason why that did not occur prior to the last election was that Parliament had been prorogued and we were in an extraordinary situation. So no one wants to go back to the dark days of September-October. We do want to regularise this matter and the Labour Party will be supporting this part of the bill. Thank you Mr Chairman. 
PESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA (National—Maungakiekie) 
: 
 I acknowledge the previous speaker the Hon David Cunliffe— 
Craig Foss 
: The “Prince of Ponsonby”. 
PESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA 
: —the “Prince of Ponsonby” of course—and the points he raised about aligning our laws with those of our partner Australia. The Minister of Finance alluded to the reason we are pushing this bill through under urgency. There is a sense of urgency out in the financial industry. When one goes out into the industry—and does not hold bogus inquiries in Parliament—one realises that finance companies are hurting. It is true that 95 percent of the market is banks and 5 percent is non-banks but by making that statement my learned colleague ignores the important role that non-bank finance companies play within the finance market in New Zealand particularly for those in rural areas and for those who are not able to access capital from the big banks. Those non-bank finance companies play a crucial role for those people and that is why this legislation is critical to the continuation of that role. 
The transition as Mr Cunliffe alluded to will be a slow one. The deadline will be will be December 2011. That date dovetails well with the timing of the next election given that the action of the previous Government in October 2008 to put in place the original scheme was done with a little bit of haste over one weekend as Mr Nash mentioned. 
I turn back to the bill. One of the important clauses is clause 6(2) which states: “The minister may give the guarantee on any terms and conditions that the Minister thinks fit.” That discretion is important given that the criteria for the Minister to grant it will be a public-interest test. What was also referred to was the fact that people have lost their lives. I have to say that it is really poor taste to mention such people within the realms of the discussion of this bill. 
It is poor taste because families have suffered and to use it for political grandstanding and political capital is just a bit out of line. But that is OK because a finance company inquiry is being conducted by the Commerce Committee and I applaud the members who have pushed for it particularly my colleague John Boscawen and the chair of the Commerce Committee the Hon Lianne Dalziel who has steered a good course in respect of the terms of reference for the inquiry. It will cover a number of aspects which some people have alluded to tonight. Some people have referred to the nature of moratoria and a corporate trustee model and all that work will be reviewed in due course under the terms of reference for that inquiry. 
So this bill is about the creditworthiness of the finance companies—we will not touch on the banks. It is important that finance companies are creditworthy and to say that a company that has say a B or a BB credit-rating is a company that is of high creditworthiness. Obviously some members across the aisle will misunderstand the rating system because those types of companies are non-investment grade. They carry higher risks than the banking sector and appropriately they should be priced for carrying that risk. I concur with the Minister and my colleagues in supporting this bill. 
STUART NASH (Labour) 
: 
 I will make one point with regard to Sam’s speech because he may have got the wrong end of the stick. 
Moana Mackey 
: Probably; I think he is on council time at the moment. 
STUART NASH 
: That is all right. I brought up the fact that people were suffering. The reason I brought up that fact is that Michael Cullen—the previous Minister of Finance who put the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill into place—said that one of the main reasons that the previous Government did this aside from shoring up the financial sector was to guarantee ordinary New Zealanders would not be put under the financial and emotional stress that they had been put under due to the collapse of 40-odd finance companies over the preceding 2 years or so. The financial and emotional hardship of ordinary New Zealanders was not brought up in the debate to make a political point at all; it was quite the opposite. It was brought up to say there are two sides to this bill: there is the fiscal or financial side and there is the social side. The social side is just as important as the financial side. So I correct Sam on that: there was no disrespect whatsoever; it was brought up to emphasise two points. 
I make another point: when the Minister of Finance stood up to take a call on Part 1 I was very hopeful that he would answer two questions that the Labour team had posed to him earlier in the Committee stage. The first was how the Government was going to extract itself from this scheme without once again inherently damaging the non-bank centre through a run on deposits by investors in so-called high-risk funds which are currently under guarantee. As mentioned the majority of people who I believe are new investors in financial companies—the $880 million worth of new funds in the finance companies—are investors not savers. I have a real concern that once this scheme runs out people will withdraw their funds from the non-bank sector and therefore create another financial tsunami which may affect the finance companies. 
The second question that I had hoped the Minister would answer is how long the Government will continue with this guarantee. If we look at the regulatory impact statement again we see that it states: “Stability is aided to the extent that moral hazard is reduced thus decreasing the likelihood of more failure in the long run through imprudent lending.” I suppose my concern is that once the market investors and savers—and banks for that matter—become used to such a scheme then extracting ourselves from the scheme will become incredibly difficult. In fact we may find—and this is a risk—that overseas lenders will demand that such a scheme remains in place otherwise the cost of overseas funds will skyrocket having an adverse effect upon homeowners the farming sector and the business sector as overseas lenders price risk accordingly. At the moment the international sector prices risk by looking at the risk of funds falling over. At the moment there is no risk that any funds in any institution that is in the Government guarantee scheme will fall over. How will we extract ourselves from this scheme without the risk premium on overseas funds increasing? I know we are talking about depositors here but it still has implications across the whole banking sector. Unfortunately for the vast majority of New Zealanders for the Labour Opposition and I am sure for the Minister’s frustrated National colleagues he did not talk about this issue at all. 
Another thing that came up in the regulatory impact statement was the statement—and this surprised me—“Letting the DGS cease in October 2010 would avoid the direct costs associated with the Treasury continuing to operate the DGS for an additional period but forgo the fees currently collected.” The reason I found that slightly surprising was that the fees are there to mitigate risk to a certain extent but not to a great extent. I hope Treasury is not varying the scheme simply because it can collect a whole lot of money. There are many reasons for this scheme and one of the very very small reasons is the money it can collect. But as mentioned Treasury has collected over $80 million from this so far. Maybe it should give $13 million back to the adult and community education sector—only $13 million! 
That is OK; let us look at Part 2 which contains some other clauses we can talk about that for retail depositors are just as important as the adult and community sector is to those who are taking night classes. 
DAVID BENNETT (National—Hamilton East) 
: 
 In regard to Part 2 of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill I will touch on a point that the previous speaker made. The previous speaker from the Labour Party was talking about a so-called risk premium. Basically he was saying that international investors will require the New Zealand Government to maintain the scheme and that to get out of the scheme would be very expensive for our Government and our country. Well that shows the level of knowledge of the financial system that the Labour members have. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe Labour members do need an inquiry so that they can learn what is going on in the financial system. Maybe it should not have been an inquiry. Maybe it should have been an educational trip for the Labour members. Even better than that maybe they needed to create a forum where they could discuss things come up with a policy agenda and write up a series of reports to file amongst the Labour Party so that they could be framed and members could say that they are some of the great leaders of the Labour Party like Michael Cullen. He was known for doing a series of reports so that Labour members could be comfortable with some paper behind them. Unless they have paper behind them Labour members do not care. They do not understand— 
Stuart Nash 
: I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We are debating if I am correct—and correct me if I am wrong—Part 2 of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and so far all I have heard is Mr Bennett talk to those beside him. He keeps looking in their direction but I have not heard one word at all about Part 2 of this bill. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I think the point is well made but I could have directed it to some of the member’s colleagues at odd times as well. By and large they have been very good but there have been blemishes. I ask Mr Bennett to debate Part 2. 
DAVID BENNETT 
: I think that is fine leadership from our Committee Chair who has shown a good understanding of what both parties have been saying. 
In going back to the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill I point out that the previous speaker talked about a risk premium. Let us put it this way. If anybody had any idea of the financial system especially the Australasian financial system he or she would understand that in Australia and New Zealand the banks are trying to get out of retail deposit guarantee schemes. The banks in both New Zealand and Australia are in a situation now where they believe they have weathered the worst of the storm and therefore they do not think they need this kind of legislation. That is the reality of the situation. The Labour members needed that banking inquiry so that someone could tell them that but most other people would have found that information if they had been aware of the market and taken due diligence rather than having to argue it through the debate on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme as we have tonight. 
When we look at Part 2 we see that it essentially goes to the heart of the matter. It talks about what the bill entails in the sense of the Minister’s ability to specify the types of entity and criteria the Minister’s ability to give a guarantee recovery of money the assumption of creditors’ rights and payments in respect of the guarantee. The heart of this legislation is in Part 2. It contains the components that we have been talking about in regard to the Minister of Finance and the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. 
What has happened in the financial situation in New Zealand in the last few months and the situation is reflected by our Australian neighbour is that due to the stability afforded to the financial system in this region through the Australian banks performing extremely well the need for this guarantee scheme has in essence waned. This legislation is a very good sign for the New Zealand economy because it shows that we do not need the props of that guarantee scheme as much as we did 9 to 12 months ago. It shows the incredible stewardship of the economy by this Government which has managed to make the right decisions through its budgetary process and has continued through that process to give New Zealand and international investors a sense of security about the financial leadership of New Zealand and the security of our financial markets and our banking system. 
It is a good sign for New Zealand that we are able to do this. The Labour members are voting for it because they know it is a good sign. They should be applauding the National Government for making this good sign a reality within such a short period of time. But they cannot bring themselves to do that and they have to hide behind banking inquiries and suchlike to try to console themselves about their financial woes. The guarantee scheme was started by the previous Government at the end of its political term but it was a bit of a rush job and it was done only because the Australians did it. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I have been looking at the questions and answers that Treasury has released on the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill and the concern I have is that they do not resolve one of the question marks I have over the whole thing. We have been talking about how urgent this legislation is and how it must be dealt with under urgency. We are told on the Treasury website that there needs to be certainty so that people can act with certainty as soon as possible: “We want to give depositors and institutions certainty as soon as possible. Approvals for institutions to participate in the extended scheme are expected to begin from late September to early October this year.” So obviously this legislation is passed now and by the end of the month or early next month we are into applications for approvals being lodged by institutions who want to participate in the extended scheme. The advice then states that details of institutions participating in the extended Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme will be published on the Treasury website. Essentially this is an answer to a question that a depositor or investor might be asking such as: “Where do I find out if my deposits and investments are guaranteed now? How and when will I know if the Crown guarantee still covers my deposits after the scheme is extended?”. 
One would imagine that we are rushing under urgency because there will be a relatively short period of time when applications for the extensions will be made so that everyone can know whether their particular institution will be in the scheme. In fact Amy Adams told the Committee that we had to deal with the bill under urgency because we were so stupid on this side of the Chamber that we did not realise that people made decisions a year in advance. But guess when applications for extensions close? If an institution does not have a credit rating yet when is the latest that it can apply for the extended scheme? When do members think that might be? 
Paul Quinn 
: Who are you looking at? 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I am running a little thing over here. Applications for extension to the scheme should be made by 12 October 2010! So the legislation does not have to be passed immediately at all. In fact there is not the certainty for people who are currently— 
Aaron Gilmore 
: Read the rules for the non-banking sector. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: The member wrote them! 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL 
: I think that he actually invented the finance sector. We never had a single finance company in this country until Aaron Gilmore thought of it! It is unbelievable. What that man has not contributed to his nation is not worth speaking about but there we go. 
The point I make is that it is all very well for the Government to say that this bill has to be introduced and passed urgently so that there is certainty but in actual fact the real sector that wants this is not the banks—the banks do not want it all—it is the finance companies and the people who are making decisions as to whether they are going to reinvest in finance companies. They want to know when that will be and that is what the wind-down as the Government has described it is all about. But they do not have to decide whether they are going into this until 12 October 2010. 
Members opposite have said that the pricing of risk around the cost of entering this extension has been more appropriately aligned by the reference to the BB rating. I think that the members who have made those comments do not know how the current system is priced. There are two price ranges one leading up to the BB rating and one for those who have improved to the BB rating and beyond. So to tie it back to the BB rating—and I agree with the Government that it is the bare minimum in respect of extending the deposit guarantee scheme—with the introduction of the requirements to have credit ratings under the new non-bank deposit taking legislation makes good sense. But I think members opposite are assuming that there was nothing in the previous scheme that tried to encourage these non-bank deposit taking entities to move to a credit-rating situation before they were legally required to do so in order to be registered under the Reserve Bank legislation. 
I think that the Minister should respond to these questions but if nobody else wants to have a chat about this I will continue. It is a serious issue that I would like the Minister to respond to because everything hangs on the fact that we are not having any element of select committee input. Even the officials briefing for 1 to 2 days that Treasury recommended should happen is not happening and the reason we were given was that this all had to be done so urgently. We have just shown that the one sector that is relying on this measure more than any other sector does not have to have its application in until 12 October 2010. 
The second thing I wanted to focus on again comes from the regulatory impact statement. I have to say that finding out that the regulatory impact statement was not in the bill and having to go and download it over the tea break was not helpful. There is an issue in relation to the changes that the Government will make to the conditions around the guarantee and the Minister may like to take the opportunity to address this. I have read the changes that Treasury is now recommending through the regulatory impact statement and I assume that they have been signed off by Cabinet but it is difficult to tell. Paragraph 63 of the regulatory impact statement talks about “More active management levers:” and “Redefining trigger events for default so institutions entering statutory management would not necessarily be in default.” and I think that is an interesting expansion of the scheme. It also refers to the “Change of control authorisation requirement;” and that is essentially looking at the risk of a buyer entering the market with the aim of using the guarantee to rapidly build a deposit book and perhaps not meeting other conditions that the Reserve Bank or Treasury would want to impose. I think that those three matters are serious issues and they are worthy of debate and consideration. We have seen them included in the regulatory impact statement and it is assumed that they will represent or already represent Government policy although one can never be sure. They were certainly not mentioned in the questions and answers that I referred to. 
But the questions that were raised by the unions and by the economic thinktank that are referred to in annex 3 about the other conditions around employment protection and mortgage holiday provisions simply have not been included in the regulatory impact statement other than to say: “We have assessed the idea of introducing conditions on the guarantee but consider such conditions may undermine the objectives of the guarantee e.g. it may stop firms downsizing when that sort of change is necessary to ensure their future viability.” Again it is very much targeted to the finance company sector not to the banks yet I am sure that it is the banks or the banking unions that are looking for some security for their banking officers who are facing contracting out to overseas placements. I think that the Minister ought to respond to this. Because we have not had the opportunity to debate these issues with officials during a select committee process we missed the opportunity to ask ourselves whether it would be worthwhile from a public perspective to say that while we are giving this protection to investors we will also give this protection to those who have borrowed. 
The mortgage holiday provisions are clearly designed—from the promotion of those who brought them to the attention of the officials—to help people through a difficult situation in a difficult economic climate. I think that the public would find a lot of this kind of proposal much more satisfactory if they could see that there was a benefit that went beyond what they were prepared to meet the cost of or meet the risk of whereas the mortgage holiday provisions really do not represent a significant risk to the banks and would be a huge sign of goodwill at a difficult time especially with so many people facing redundancy. These redundancies are affecting families that have never experienced redundancy in their lifetime. Because these issues have been raised in the regulatory impact statement which was not tabled in the House but in fact hidden on the Treasury website I think it would be worthwhile to have some dialogue around these issues because they are conditions whereby I think it would be a ripe opportunity for a bit of a win-win. The public would see some broader benefit being brought to bear and at the same time it would provide for confidence between our two markets. I would like the Minister to respond to the fact that in the regulatory impact statement the banks say that they see no risk— 
JO GOODHEW (Junior Whip—National) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
RAYMOND HUO (Labour) 
: 
 Part 2 contains the main seven clauses of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. Clause 5 enables the Minister of Finance to set the eligibility criteria for the extended scheme. This clause is very flexible and broad. However it does not provide the eligibility criteria. Actually the entire bill does not outline the eligibility policy; it merely provides the Minister with the authority to determine eligibility. Based on the broad terms indicated by the Minister at the end of August the key eligibility criteria are likely to be that applicants must be in the current scheme—except for new banks and merged entities at the Crown’s discretion—and they must have a BB credit-rating or above. Collective investment schemes will not be eligible for the extended scheme. 
Labour members have some concerns about this policy. The first concerns the requirement that companies have at least a BB credit-rating in order to be eligible. The problem is that some companies might not be able to obtain a sufficient credit-rating having insufficient scale to meet the requirements of the credit-rating agencies. Secondly it could cause a shake-out in the non-bank sector resulting in further finance company collapses and further losses for mum and dad investors while the big banks move in to mop up customers. Thirdly the banks are able to benefit from the wholesale guarantee without being obliged to contribute to the retail deposit scheme. To that extent it is fair to suggest that big banks may win twice. They pay less in fees and they get a greater degree of the market share at the expense of smaller institutions which will no longer be able to rely on the guarantee and will fall over. 
My having said that we should remind ourselves that the above policy which has caused us such concern has added to the whole range of policy settings that shelter the internal economy at the expense of the traded economy. I was involved in the public hearing of submissions to the multi-party banking inquiry last week. For me listening to the submitters across the board expanded my horizons. Let me quote what was said by Mr John Walley who was representing the New Zealand Manufacturers and Exporters Association. It is relevant to what we are talking about regarding the bill: “Banks have grown faster than the surrounding economy indicating wealth transfers from the traded economy to the non-traded economy.” Therefore “the ‘must-trade’ imperative must be at the forefront of our policy design if greater investment and consequently higher growth and productivity in the export sector and ultimately our entire economy is to be anticipated.” 
It is worth noting that in 2008 the banks made consistent growth over time of around $3.2 billion—more than the entire NZX50 less the banks. I quote again: “We doubt this is either healthy or sustainable for our economy.” Thank you. 
CRAIG FOSS (National—Tukituki) 
: 
 I move  
That the question be now put 
. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: The question is that the question be now put. 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We have been on Part 2 for only a little over 30 minutes. It is the substantial part of the bill. It is a bill that the Opposition has not seen it being introduced under urgency. There are other Opposition speakers; Mr Chauvel has just arrived and wants to speak on this part. I think that for a bill that has not been seen by the Opposition and that has not been to a select committee to accept the second Government motion of closure on the main bulk of the bill after a little over 30 minutes of debate is disappointing. I wonder whether you would consider accepting a few more calls given that we are debating this bill under urgency. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: I do not need any assistance. There have been nine calls. I try to be as fair as possible. There is not a great degree of divergence of views on this part. I have not been persuaded by a great wealth of new information to accept more calls. I have listened very carefully to the debate. I have made the choice that I will take the closure at this point. 
A party vote was called for on the question  
That the question be now put. 
Ayes 69 
New Zealand National 58; ACT New Zealand 5; Maori Party 5; United Future 1. 
Noes 53 
New Zealand Labour 43; Green Party 9; Progressive 1. 
Motion agreed to. 
Part 2 agreed to. 
Clauses 1 and 2 
Hon DARREN HUGHES (Senior Whip—Labour) 
: 
 I raise a point of order Mr Chairperson. We have now come to the title and commencement clauses of this bill. I think it is pretty fair to say we were disappointed by the shutting-down of the debate on Part 2 after such a short time on a bill that we have seen only today and that did not go to a select committee when other Opposition speakers wanted to take a call on it. You have been in the Chair all evening Mr Chairperson and you have sat through debate on Part 1 and Part 2 so you have heard a lot of the debate. Because you have heard Part 1 which influenced the debate on Part 2 I wonder what factors you are looking for here. This debate will be the only scrutiny this bill will get and the bill is an important economic instrument. The Opposition wants to have an understanding of where you are coming from. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy) 
: When a bill has not gone to a select committee there is a convention that the debate on clauses 1 and 2 can be slightly extended. Given that as Chair I have to make some decisions about relevancy new material repetition and all of that in the same way as before. But I say again that when a bill has not been to a select committee there is a convention that the debate on the title and commencement date can be somewhat extended. But the debate must still be relevant to the bill. 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) 
: 
 Debate on the commencement and title—by convention as you have said Mr Chairperson—is an opportunity for a relatively broad-ranging discussion of the key themes of the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme Bill. 
I will start with the commencement clause. The commencement date of the bill is 31 December 2011 which is the date the existing guarantee scheme continues until. That carries on from the earlier date of 12 October 2010. We have said that the decision to extend this commencement date to cover a period similar to the Australian legislation is appropriate because it avoids the risk of the flow of funds to Australian institutions. We have also said we think that the amount of time spent scrutinising the bill has been inappropriate. There has been no select committee consideration and the time in the House has been under urgency. That time will be half a day and it will be all New Zealanders will hear. 
Many thousands of New Zealanders will be worried about their funds. As my colleague Lianne Dalziel has said people want to know whether their fund is covered. They might want the opportunity to look it up on the Treasury website. Of course they will not find the answer because this bill is only framework legislation. It does not even vest the whole policy; that has to be promulgated by the Minister through the  
Gazette  
and regulations. The public does not have an opportunity to see how this scheme affects them. We know that for many investors particularly those who have been burnt in the finance company collapses this can be a matter of huge personal consequence. So the commencement date matters and it matters because there really was time—and I think the Minister of Finance alluded to this when he took a call at the end of the debate on Part 1—if we had been pushed to have a contracted select committee process. It is a disservice to the public that that process was not allowed and I invite the Minister to take a further call. Perhaps he would be willing to change his mind at this point and allow a further process of some kind perhaps some further consultation with the public before he promulgates his regulations under the  
Gazette 
. That might be a compromise. 
With respect Mr Chairperson I say that if the rest of the Part 2 debate had been allowed we would have touched on the fact that the Minister has not taken any calls since Part 1. He has not taken a single call to defend the two key issues: why we are leaving the banks out; and when the non-banks are in why we are setting the threshold at BB. BB is an uncomfortable middle ground in some ways is it not? For many particularly smaller finance companies the cost and difficulty of process of going to a rating agency and getting a rating would be prohibitive. Some will not make the BB cut. I am not saying that the Minister is wrong to have signalled BB but how would the public know? The Minister has not deigned to take a call and defend that key issue. The public deserves to know from the Minister why the rating is BB. Why not BB+ BB- or BBB? It is sub-investment grade but it is only just below. I ask the Minister whether that is the rationale. The public would like to know because people will be worried about their own schemes and where they fall on the rating scale. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: He’s good at schemes! 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: He is good at schemes as my colleague has said. 
Another thing the public will want to know is why the maximum threshold was set at $500000 per institution deposit or $250000 per non-bank institution deposit. Why bring it down from $1 million which was the previous institution limit? Why contract that? To be fair to the Minister I say that there may be an argument about weaning the public and the finance sector off the guarantees but again it would be proper for the Minister to take a call to explain the logic. This is his policy. He signalled it a week ago but he has not been subject to parliamentary debate on the very heart of this issue. It is appropriate that he takes a call because this bill is the framework bill that gives the Minister the power from Parliament to the executive to promulgate those or any other regulations to manifest his policy. 
Hon Darren Hughes 
: It’s important enough for urgency! 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: If it is important enough for urgency it is important enough for the Minister to say to the public of New Zealand why the figure is $500000 and not $1 million why the rating is BB and not BBB and why he is doing it this way with no select committee process and not giving the public an opportunity to talk. 
The Minister is not hugely known for wanting participatory public processes. There was an earlier comment that he was desperate to shut down the parliamentary banking inquiry. The poor old National members on the Finance and Expenditure Committee had proposed an item of business to hear from the finance and banking sector around the more narrow issue of the pass-through of official cash rate cuts into retail short-term rates. They put up the motion and then if hearsay is to be believed a week later under pressure from the Minister they voted against their own motion leaving the public to wonder what on earth was going on and what could be the motivation for that backflip. The public believes that somehow the Minister roared like a lion in Parliament about protecting the public from voracious banks. But then after a couple of phone calls from the chairman he rolled over and forced his own MPs to stymie the banking inquiry. His office has been flat out on the phone. We have not been able to get a phone line into the Minister’s office for the last 3 weeks. The staff were on the phone the whole time trying to stop banks and finance institutions from turning up at the inquiry. Well tough luck. They missed out: there were 50 submissions and a dozen very substantive briefings. 
What did we learn? We learnt first that banks have been after all is said and done inappropriately failing to pass through cuts to the official cash rate. It is hard to put an exact number on it but it is between 0.5 percent and 1 percent of somebody else’s money. Mr Boscawen will take note because he is very strong on those issues and good on him. It is 0.5 percent to 1 percent of someone else’s money with no reasonable explanation in the data despite some acknowledged increases in costs—but not enough to count. 
Even more important—and this is where it comes back to the coverage of this bill—we are unearthing terrible difficulties with the impact of the official cash rate on the monetary system because every time it is raised hot money is sucked in which expands credit and lifts demand and has the exact opposite impact of what we wanted it to do which was to cool off the housing bubble. It leaves us with an underlying problem that the Minister we hope will address in some way when his Tax Working Group reports and that problem is what we do about preventing the next housing bubble. The commencement and title of this bill are about debt securities and in Part 2 we heard that the total volume of debt securities is now 140 percent of New Zealand’s GDP rising at 10 percent per annum with 90 percent of it funnelled through the banks into the property sector. That is where the money that this bill will cover goes. The point is is it good for anybody? Is it good for our manufacturers? No. Is it good for our exporters? No. Is it good for the real economy? No. New Zealand will not pay its way in the world by speculating real estate. It cannot be done. We have a trade deficit and we have a current account deficit of which two-thirds to three-quarters is the bleed from the banking sector of offshore repatriation of profits. How big are the profits? They are bigger than the profits the entire NZX50 makes. That is how big the problem is. That is the context within which this bill fits: a financial system that is fundamentally misaligned to the needs of New Zealand. 
What is the Government doing to address it? Why does the Minister not take a call? If he will not address this bill he should tell us what his plans are to address that misalignment. New Zealand’s future depends on getting capital to people who make things build things sell things and export things so that we can earn our way in the world. 
Paul Quinn 
: It’s a pity you didn’t understand that for 9 years. Where were you when we needed you? 
Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE 
: Now the Government benches are getting excited because we are getting a bit close to the truth. 
Budget 2009 was an idea-free zone. What was the Minister doing for 9 long years in Opposition if he came into Government without a clue what to do and had no new ideas in his first Budget? Not one. Oh sorry I missed one: to suspend superannuation payments for a decade. That was it. His solution to the recession was to ruin superannuation. Nobody in New Zealand believes that this Government can maintain entitlements without pre-funding superannuation. It has wrecked it for a decade. 
A member points to the bill. If we had had more time on Part 2 we would not be having such a broad-ranging debate on the title would we? 
CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour) 
: 
 Mr Chairman— 
Craig Foss 
: Turn that tie down member! 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: I am glad that members opposite particularly Mr Foss enjoy my tie and long may that enjoyment last. This bill is about promoting financial stability and confidence in the banking system. As the chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Committee in the last year or so of the last Parliament I was very proud to have contributed to that aim along with one or two members opposite in serving on that committee. I take a moment to remind members that Labour had actually established a work stream in this area to support some really active quality regulation networks to establish an environment that supported business growth and innovation and ensure that New Zealand was a good place to invest and do business. 
In particular I recall three pieces of legislation that we saw through the Finance and Expenditure Committee and those were the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act 2008 the Financial Advisers Act 2008 and the Reserve Bank Amendment Act 2008. The main requirements arising from that legislation as many who are present in the Chamber tonight will know were the registration of all financial service providers; to provide a means of identifying and monitoring financial service providers; to introduce prudential supervision by the Reserve Bank of non-bank deposit takers; to introduce regulation by the Securities Commission of financial advisers; to encourage professionalism and public confidence in the sector; and to provide for comprehensive consumer dispute resolution and redress mechanisms. They were important measures. 
My colleague and friend David Cunliffe has just spoken about the banking inquiry which was another measure that was spearheaded by Labour to really try to build some confidence in the system. I think it is fair to say that that inquiry demonstrates that Labour really is listening to New Zealanders’ concerns about the banking system in a fundamental way. 
Paul Quinn 
: Is this what you learnt on the bus trip? 
CHARLES CHAUVEL 
: That is why that inquiry was launched along with the support of the Greens and the Progressive party so that we could take a good look I say to Mr Quinn at what was really going on in our banking system onshore. The inquiry was one that as Mr Cunliffe said the Beehive was absolutely desperate to stop. It required National MPs including Mr Foss over there to vote against their own motion at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It tried to shut down participation at that inquiry. I would like to join with Mr Cunliffe and ask the Minister of Finance to take a call and assure the Committee that neither he nor his staff or supporters made any calls to try to shut down that inquiry. But we will not hear from him. We know that. We have heard only one call on Part 1 so far. Never mind that this legislation is not being referred to a select committee and being put through the sort of scrutiny it should have. Just like in the banking inquiry National has shown that when the chips are down it will always side with the interests of the big banks over the needs of hard-working Kiwis and working families as well as small businesses that are starved of capital and made to pay ridiculous amounts of interest for that capital. 
The inquiry received around 50 submissions and a dozen substantive oral presentations of hearings including those from Kiwibank and business groups like Federated Farmers the Employers and Manufacturers Association and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association. National’s attempt to suppress that inquiry absolutely failed. The key issues that emerged in that inquiry and will not be addressed at all by this legislation included strong evidence that consumers businesses and farmers have been overcharged by interest on short-term loans. There is a cross-subsidy between medium and long-term mortgages contributing to a new housing cycle that will be disastrous for this economy and there are huge issues around the growing national debt. 
Now 140 percent of GDP resulting largely from property loans channelled through the banking system was evidence that the Finance and Expenditure Committee also heard in its inquiry into the monetary system last year and this Parliament still does not do anything about it in this legislation or otherwise. It will be good to see the team from that banking inquiry doing follow-up research to report in late October. I think a high-quality report will no doubt be produced following some international peer review. That is the sort of quality process we will see from that review. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 I will just comment on a couple of questions that have been raised. One has been the issue of reducing the coverage per depositor. Like a number of the other measures this needs to be seen in the context of the Government making it clear that the changes in the deposit guarantee scheme signal clearly a reversion to normal market conditions at some time in the future. It is entirely reasonable that alongside increasing the pricing of the guarantee the Government has moved to reduce the cap on the deposits that it covers. As the regulatory impact statement points out this has the effect of reducing the Crown contingent liability and of course reducing somewhat the fiscal cost of a future default event. It also has the effect that some of the smaller institutions that may be dependent on a few large deposits will have their circumstances altered. That is why we have reduced the coverage—because the deposit guarantee scheme is transiting towards normal market conditions. 
Someone raised the issue of the BB ratings and the cost to small institutions of getting those ratings. That is not a function of the guarantee. The fact that non-bank deposit taking institutions will need to get a credit rating is a product of the new regulations that are coming through consequent on legislation that was actually passed last year. So the guarantee itself does not cause these institutions to get a credit rating; they have to do that in the next 6 months anyway. In October next year the extended guarantee will pick up and use those credit ratings for the purposes that Parliament intended them for—that is to signal to investors with more clarity the trade-off between risk and return in relation to putting deposits or other investments into these institutions. 
Hon LIANNE DALZIEL (Labour—Christchurch East) 
: 
 I want to focus on the fact that the statement that the Minister of Finance made in announcing the extension to the retail deposit guarantee included a list of all the changes that will take effect after 12 October 2010: the fees to be paid will be changed to reflect the institution’s risk profile eligible bank deposits will be covered up to a maximum of $500000 per depositor per institution eligible non-bank deposits will be covered up to a maximum of $250000 per depositor per institution and deposit-taking institutions with a credit rating of BB or higher can apply to participate in the extended scheme. Then it stated that collective investment schemes will not be eligible for the new scheme. 
I have looked through the regulatory impact statement and I cannot find a detailed analysis of why the decision was made that collective schemes will not be eligible for the new scheme. Under the existing scheme collective investment schemes such as portfolio investment entities unit trusts and superannuation schemes are able to claim on the guarantee provided that they invest exclusively in New Zealand Government securities or debt securities issued by institutions covered by the Crown guarantee; they do not increase their investments in guaranteed institutions that are not registered banks beyond the level that existed as at 12 October 2008; and their rules ensure that any money paid under the guarantee will be distributed only to retail members. I thought those were a relatively tight set of criteria. 
I did not download the number of schemes that have been approved but on 25 August when the extension was first announced I had a look at the website and I seem to recall that a number of portfolio investment entities had been accepted and were guaranteed under the existing scheme. I would really like to understand the thinking behind the decision to leave out collective investment schemes altogether. There is not even the opt-in option any more but simply a decision that they will not be eligible. What was the thinking behind that decision? I am relatively sure that some of those schemes are currently under the guarantee. I think those institutions themselves would be somewhat concerned that there is not the detailed analysis that there is of some of the other examples that I have already used in my contribution to the debate. 
It is quite a serious issue because as some of my colleagues have raised the real risk is having too great an influence on investment decisions and distorting the market as it were in this whole area. I have been making the comment for a number of years now that we cannot get rid of risk and that there will always be risk in this financial area because otherwise there is no return. Then we introduced the retail deposit guarantee scheme which somewhat diminished the argument I was always making. But the scheme is only a temporary measure and it is for an extreme situation. So it does raise for me the question of why it was decided that collective investment schemes would be left out. Has there been consultation with the operators of the different schemes? And what has been the response? I have looked through all of the issues raised in annex 3 and there does not appear to be any specific reference to collective investment schemes. I may be wrong. If the Minister would like to take a call on that it would be very useful. 
Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance) 
: 
 The member raised a reasonable issue. Retaining the collective investment schemes as the regulatory impact statement points out would not cause particular issues. There are reasons to exclude them. The investments in collective investment schemes are not actually deposits and only a limited range of collective investment schemes are covered under the existing scheme. Like the other decisions that have been made in the detail of the scheme in each case where there is some judgment to be made the Government has made a judgment in favour of moving towards tighter and more limited coverage. 
Debate interrupted. 
Sitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)