Little Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeLittle Andrew: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 24 March 2015. Volume:704;Page:2486. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]2.ANDREW LITTLE (Leader of the Opposition) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statements that his plan to sell state houses “is not about selling to developers” and he would be “amazed” if the likes of the Salvation Army were hesitant to get involved?Hon BILL ENGLISH (Acting Prime Minister): Yes the social housing reforms are about better outcomes for our tenants many of whom have been locked into dependency for decades when Governments have done very little to assist them to housing or economic independence. The Salvation Army yesterday said it is keen to pursue housing partnerships between itself and the Government and others. In fact I am advised that it is in the process right now of registering as a community housing provider which will of course give it access to income-related rents for the many hundreds of seriously needy tenants whom it currently looks after. I am sure the Salvation Army will welcome access to a larger subsidy for New Zealanders in serious housing need.Andrew Little: Is it correct that he is considering a sweetheart deal for private developers with measures including selling the houses below book value offering subsidies allowing houses to be rented at market rates or allowing them to be sold into the private market?Hon BILL ENGLISH: As a result of the first opportunity in 70 years for many people to have an opinion and to participate in better housing for the most needy New Zealanders we have heard all of those ideas. We are going through a process of working with them and listening to them because we all have a common purpose to do a better job for the tenants. The transactions that had been proposed however will be run on a commercial and competitive basis.Andrew Little: Was today’s New Zealand Herald editorial correct when it said his policy “amounts to a subsidy leaving taxpayers out of pocket. And it raises the question of the whole point of the exercise.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: No but the New Zealand Herald may be interested to know that the Government values its houses currently as if it is a developer. It values them as if it can get the highest price for an individual house on the day and of course social housing providers who are more focused on looking after the tenants do not believe that those valuations are correct—that as social houses they are not there to capture the full capital gain and that the issue is precisely the opposite of the one the New Zealand Herald thinks that it is.Andrew Little: Which of these community housing experts is wrong and why: Major Campbell Roberts who said of the housing sell-off: “I don’t there’s been enough thinking gone into it.”; or Property Institute chief executive officer Ashley Church who said: “If a large credible social agency like The Salvation Army thinks that the current proposal is too risky—it’s unlikely that any other group is going to be any more willing to pick it up.”; or thirdly the Iwi Leaders Forum housing spokesperson Sonny Tau who said: “I don’t think it’s a good policy.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well two of those three have been knocking on my door for 3 years telling us to hurry up. The iwi leaders group has been criticising the Government for taking too long to work out the details of how to do these transactions. So we have every confidence that there is widespread interest in a once-in-a generation opportunity to redevelop communities that have suffered from the blight of mismanaged State housing and whose tenants have been neglected by Governments that did not support them into independence. Increasingly the Labour Party members are about the only people who believe that the way it is being done now is perfect.Andrew Little: In light of that answer then is Major Campbell Roberts wrong when he says the policy will not “improve the lives and living conditions of State tenants.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes I believe that he is wrong. But I do not believe that is the Salvation Army’s views frankly; otherwise it would not have invested 5 years in assisting the Government to develop the policy. Major Campbell Roberts was in the initial advisory group. He has been supportive and testing about the policy for 5 years. I respect his view but on that one I differ from him.Tim Macindoe: What reports has the Prime Minister seen supporting the Government’s social housing reform programme?Hon BILL ENGLISH: I have seen one that is a pretty good description of the possibilities: “We need large-scale urban developments backed by private sector developers and community housing organisations. Such developments cannot happen without the Government playing a role. Private sector developers will invest and do what they do best—designing and building great places for people and there is a vital role for community providers to add affordable housing.” That is a description of what the policy could be from Phil Twyford—the Labour housing spokesman.Andrew Little: It is 31 for 2 and time is marching on. We need to get a move on. After telling the House last week that “there is not a housing crisis” is it not true that not only does New Zealand have a social housing crisis and a housing affordability crisis but now the Government has a housing policy crisis as well?Hon BILL ENGLISH: What we know with the track record of the Labour Party is that as soon as it starts calling it a crisis it comes right. The manufacturing crisis disappeared pretty much the day Labour christened it that way. No I disagree with all those comments. We have a once-in-a generation opportunity to improve the lives of the most seriously needy New Zealanders who have been neglected by past Governments in housing that was of low quality. This Government is going to change it with the assistance of many hundreds if not thousands of other people in New Zealand who want the same thing.Andrew Little: Why is the Government wasting so much time and public money on this convoluted policy that will not do an ounce of good rather than just getting on with the job and building more houses for Kiwi families in need?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well of course it is doing both. We are not just dealing with the short-term issue of more supply on the ground faster—and Housing New Zealand can become a major supplier of that under these reforms—we are also dealing with the longer-term issue of people locked into long-term welfare dependency or in some cases underservicing of their need in a system that focused on houses rather than people. We are happy to be the party bringing in a policy that focuses on the people who need housing rather than the Labour Party’s focus on the State houses.