Ball Darroch: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeBall Darroch: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 17 February 2016. Volume:711;Page:9062. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]3.DARROCH BALL (NZ First) to the Minister of Finance: In light of the publication of the Salvation Army report “Moving Targets” does he stand by all his statements?Hon BILL ENGLISH (Minister of Finance): Yes in particular any number of statements to the effect that the Government is making progress on dealing with some of the more challenging issues among our vulnerable and lowest-income New Zealanders. The Salvation Army report by and large—in fact almost without exception—backs up those statements.Darroch Ball: Does he stand by his statement when asked about the New Zealand First member’s bill requesting that the Office of the Auditor-General review the Better Public Services targets that “We do better than that; we get them scrutinised by the New Zealand public.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes. Anyone is welcome to scrutinise the numbers and how they are calculated. It happens that the Auditor-General and the Audit Office do have a look at them and central agencies do. We are actively encouraging external organisations. In fact I think the social sector has taken a bit long to organise itself in a way that means it can apply some real expertise to holding the Government to account. We would welcome that.Darroch Ball: If that is the case does he agree with the Salvation Army’s Alan Johnson that Better Public Services targets should be debated publicly given that it is already critically examining the “often flimsy information offered by officials … [on] accuracy of data.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Yes and I am pleased to see the Salvation Army actually doing it. It is creating a public debate about the numbers and probably some people who are listening to that debate will be surprised at how much progress is being made on some of our core long-term issues. With regard to flimsy data yes there are a lot of areas where the data is flimsy because in the past Government has not bothered much about whether it is making a difference to people’s lives. We are trying to find out whether we are and are quite willing to be held to account where we are not making enough difference.Darroch Ball: How can the public have confidence in the target results when trusted organisations like the Salvation Army are now saying: “Some Government agencies appear to be using targets and the numbers behind them in a less than straightforward and reliable manner.” and “changing the definitions behind indicators so results appear better to inventing new numbers.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: As I think I have said before I think the Salvation Army is overstating a couple of concerns it has about two particular measures. Any of these numbers that are used are open to debate about exactly how they are calculated and used—and we are quite happy to have that debate. In fact I think we have been trying to contact the Salvation Army because when you look in its document it is hard to see just what the problem is that it is referring to. But the public can have confidence because this is the first Government ever to publish this sort of data and report against it and to welcome debate about the performance in changing people’s lives.Darroch Ball: Does he agree with the Salvation Army’s Alan Johnson when he says public scrutiny and analysis undertaken by Treasury is “not the same thing as tangible results verified by a party that does not have a vested interest in reporting good news stories.”?Hon BILL ENGLISH: Well of course the Salvation Army is an independent entity which has the intelligence and capacity to look at the data actually verifying tangible progress. I mean if there are 24 percent fewer children on benefit we regard it as progress. They have looked at the information which is Statistics New Zealand information and they are saying that it is progress. I would hope that more organisations will do what the Salvation Army has done because that can only improve the performance of Government in changing lives.Darroch Ball: Will he back New Zealand First’s member’s bill that calls for an independent audit of the Better Public Services targets by the Office of the Auditor-General this now being the third time in the last year that we have asked the Government to do so?Hon BILL ENGLISH: No because there is no need for it. The Salvation Army is conducting an independent audit it has raised two issues out of hundreds of statistics and we are quite happy to look at them. It is free to get the experts from all the universities in New Zealand to come in and pore over every detail in it. We welcome that kind of public scrutiny because it will make us better at changing the lives of the most vulnerable.Darroch Ball: I seek leave to introduce the Better Public Service Target Results Independent Audit Bill which ensures that all Government Better Public—Mr SPEAKER: Order! The motion has been moved. I will put the leave as sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is.