Parker David: Oral Questions — Questions to MinistersText is incorporated into the Bound VolumeParker David: Oral Questions — Questions to Ministers[Sitting date: 04 June 2015. Volume:706;Page:4342. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.]12.Hon DAVID PARKER (Labour) to the Minister for Primary Industries: Is the Customs Export Prohibition (Livestock for Slaughter) Order 2013 still in force and how does it differ other than as to dates from the Customs Export Prohibition (Livestock for Slaughter) Order 2010 and the Customs Export Prohibition (Livestock for Slaughter) Order 2007?Hon JO GOODHEW (Associate Minister for Primary Industries) on behalf of theMinister for Primary Industries: Yes the Customs Export Prohibition (Livestock for Slaughter) Order 2013 is still in force. Other than the dates and clarification of the definition of “Director-General” which was updated in 2013 after the Ministry for Primary Industries was formed it is no different from the order from 2010 and the order from 2007.Hon David Parker: Was the primary reason for the original restrictions on the export of live sheep for slaughter the death and distress of many sheep while being shipped to the other side of the world?Hon JO GOODHEW: I am aware that there was certainly consternation about the deaths of the sheep which happened back in 2003.Hon David Parker: Did the reasons for subsequent extensions of the prohibition extend to the welfare of the sheep upon arrival including concerns that the method of slaughter would not meet the New Zealand animal welfare standards that apply to the slaughter of sheep in New Zealand?Hon JO GOODHEW: The welfare of animals leaving New Zealand has always been of paramountcy. In fact the prohibition order was extended by subsequent Governments after this issue arose under the term of the previous Government. Animal welfare legislation has subsequently been amended which will make the requirements even more certain in the future for any stock that are exported from New Zealand.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My question sought to clarify whether the extension was because of this rising concern about the welfare of sheep upon arrival because—Mr SPEAKER: Order! I heard the question. I listened very carefully. I listened to the answer. I suspect actually that the answer has addressed the question but for the benefit of this issue—it has been the focus of a lot of questions over recent weeks—I am going to allow the question to be repeated.Hon David Parker: Did the reasons for subsequent extensions of the prohibition extend to the welfare of the sheep upon arrival including concerns that the method of slaughter would not meet the New Zealand animal welfare standards that apply to the slaughter of sheep in New Zealand?Hon JO GOODHEW: Although I do not believe that I have in front of me the exact answer to the question the member has raised what I believe is that there was a continuation of concern about animals being exported for slaughter and the prohibition order was continued for that reason.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am about to seek leave to table some documents but I think I need to raise the context first. The rules surrounding the release of Cabinet papers entitle former members of Cabinet to access those Cabinet papers but they do not entitle us to release those documents and that has to be determined by the Government under the Official Information Act. Yesterday the Prime Minister referred to two Cabinet papers in attacking the Opposition and did not release them and it is now my intention to seek leave to table those two documents but I want to alert you to this issue so that you can consider whether it is within the power of Parliament to order the release of those documents—[Interruption]Mr SPEAKER: Order! This is an important point of order and I wish to hear it.Hon David Parker: You might want to take other contributions from the House before you determine that but it is an important point I think which needs to be determined before I seek that leave.Mr SPEAKER: Can I just clarify with the member raising the point of order that he is saying to me that by convention he has no rights as a former Minister to table that—can I just have that clarified by the member.Hon David Parker: No I am not saying that. My understanding is that Parliament is in control of its own destiny. The difficulty the Opposition has is that we were attacked by means of these papers and we have not got the right to release them. I would like them to be released; I do not think there is any public interest that is served by their not being released. But because it is slightly unusual I want to seek some confirmation that Parliament is indeed in charge of its own destiny here.Hon Simon Bridges: I think there are two points at least on this relatively complex matter. I think that the first is the precedent effect. It would create I think a very bad precedent where suddenly any member could table or at least seek to table Cabinet papers of former Governments. I think actually as much for the Opposition as for the Government that would be truly unfortunate. Secondly I think there is a very proper process to go through on these papers outside of this place that needs to be gone through.Mr SPEAKER: Before I make a ruling on this can I just clarify—is the member going to seek leave to table the papers now or is the member intending to ask—Hon David Parker: Yes I have the papers here and I intend to seek leave to table them. The Government can of course refuse leave but I think I am entitled to seek it.Mr SPEAKER: I think the best way forward is exactly that. The member is attempting to in fact break what has been a Cabinet convention for a long period of time which serves both the purposes of Ministers who are in Government and the purposes of former Ministers who are now in Opposition and may potentially be back in Government. I think the best way forward for me is that I will be asked to put the leave I intend to put the leave and it would not be a surprise to me if the current Government did object to it. But that would be a choice for Parliament.Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Just to clarify the point around the convention the important element in the convention is that former Ministers are given the opportunity to look at those papers and decide whether or not they can be given out. What Mr Parker is saying is that on this side of the House we representing those former Ministers are happy for the papers to be released. So that is the element of the convention. The second part of it is then what the Government chooses to do and that is what we will then be testing through the House. So the convention is met by what is being done here.Hon Simon Bridges: In order to be helpful what also occurs in my second point as to the process outside of this place is that there is a Cabinet Manual process and in terms of comity or respect between the executive and this Parliament the leave should not be put and I would put that to you. I think to propose a helpful alternative to that we would certainly be happy as the Government to see the Opposition seek to expedite the proper process on this so that the papers in a proper way can be released but I do not think that it is for this place to be doing that when there is a Cabinet Manual with rules that do need to be followed through. But they could and we could foreseeably be seeing that in the next day or two in terms of the process outside of this place.Mr SPEAKER: I accept what the Minister is saying and members may have a chance to exercise the right shortly.Hon Phil Goff: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The Cabinet convention is that there is confidentiality surrounding documents that are released to former Ministers. They have been released to me. My name and the name of the Hon Jim Anderton appear on them. Both of us are happy for these papers—Hon Steven Joyce: Well then follow the process.Hon Phil Goff: I am sorry—this is a point of order; can I be heard in silence please. Both of the Ministers concerned are happy for these papers to be released in full without deletions and the only procedure that normally follows is that the Government then formally does that under the Official Information Act. So we are not actually breaking the convention if the Government agrees to the release in the House now.Hon Steven Joyce: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker.Mr SPEAKER: This is the final point because I do not think I need further help.Hon Steven Joyce: I think that the House—and the House of course is in charge of its own destiny—needs to think through that there is a clear process in the Cabinet Manual for this. I think it is excellent that the former Ministers have made the call that they are prepared to have those papers released but an appropriate approach would be to respond to the executive and say they are happy for those papers to be released and for that to actually occur. Then we do not have any risk of upsetting the process of the Cabinet Manual or existing convention. I would suggest that that is the correct approach for the Opposition members to take rather than the approach they are seeking to take which is to circumvent that process.Hon David Parker: I seek leave firstly to table the paper Livestock Exports for Slaughter and Arrangements for Live Sheep Exports for Slaughter to Saudi Arabia dated 3 August 2007—paper ERD0714.Mr SPEAKER: On the basis that I am satisfied that the convention has been fulfilled by the points made by the former Ministersfrom the Opposition who have said they are happy with it I am going to put the leave and it is over for the House to decide. The House is the master of its own destiny in this case. Leave is sought to table that particular Cabinet paper. Is there any objection? There is objection.Hon David Parker: I seek leave to table the paper ERD0727 which is dated 16 October 2007 and is titled New Zealand’s Requirements for Livestock Exported for Slaughter.Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that particular document. Is there any objection? There is objection.Hon Steven Joyce: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Just by way of clarification can we now confirm that the Opposition has consented to that release and the executive can proceed without any further correspondence from the Opposition?Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. You have already heard that from Mr Goff.Mr SPEAKER: What the executive decides to now do with this matter is its business. Are there further supplementary questions? That concludes questions for oral answer. I call on Government Order of the Day—Hon David Parker: I am sorry; I had further supplementary questions.Mr SPEAKER: I thought there may have been some further supplementary questions; that is why I called for them. On this occasion we will step back 20 seconds.Hon David Parker: When the Minister renewed the prohibition on live sheep for slaughter exports in 2013 did he advise Cabinet that this would breach the rights of the Al Khalaf group or the Saudi Government?Hon JO GOODHEW: I have no information in order to answer that question.Hon David Parker: Has his ministry ever advised him in writing that New Zealand faced a credible claim of $20 million to $30 million from the Al Khalaf group?Hon JO GOODHEW: I do not believe that that question is addressed to the correct Minister and I certainly do not have any information to answer it.Hon David Parker: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I was not asking about Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade advice; I was asking about—Mr SPEAKER: Order! But the question was still addressed. The Minister in answering said she did not have that information.Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. As you noted in one of your rulings this has been a matter in front of the House for some time now—Mr SPEAKER: Order! Can I just have the point of order please.Grant Robertson: —with a range of questions. The Minister coming to the House and saying she does not have the information is I think not treating question time with the respect it deserves.Mr SPEAKER: Well I disagree. When a Minister is answering on behalf of another Minister and does not have the information I would far prefer to see the Minister take that approach than attempt to guess the answer and be found to be incorrect.