Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume 
Ardern Jacinda: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Sitting date: 28 February 2013. Volume:687;Page:8327. Text is incorporated into the Bound Volume.] 
5. 
JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) 
 to the  
Minister for Social Development 
: Does she stand by all her statements on Tuesday 26 February 2013 in relation to her welfare reform programme? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT (Minister for Social Development) 
: 
 Yes. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she claim her welfare reforms are a success when the number of people on all main benefits has increased by more than 60000 since her reforms were introduced? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: As I said on Tuesday I do not think anyone is surprised that benefit numbers have gone up when we were faced with the worst global recession and quite frankly we should have a system that is there to support those who need it most. But as I also pointed out since those reforms have come in and in the last 2 years we have actually seen benefit numbers going down for those on the unemployment benefit and considerably down I think which is significant for those youth— 
Hon David Parker 
: They’ve gone to Australia. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: —who are on the unemployment benefit. The member yells out that it was because they have gone to Australia. Well less than 3 percent have actually gone to Australia who have gone off benefits so that is not factually correct either. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she claim her welfare reforms are a success when the number of people she claims did not reapply for an unemployment benefit because they got a job was exceeded by the number of people who did not reapply because they left the country in desperation? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: The member likes to try to make this number seem bigger than it is. I have given it to her factually in the House again so bear with me while I get the number for her so that she can have it specifically. But actually less than 3 percent of those— 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Fewer—“fewer than 3 percent”. 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: —who have left the benefit have gone overseas. So—yep “fewer than”; thank you for that. So it is quite clear. It is not the big number that she keeps trying to kind of throw around and that is where it is at. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she claim her welfare reforms are a success by boasting that 21000 left the unemployment benefit because they did not reapply when double that number left simply because they moved to another benefit category? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: In some respects I am pleased the member has raised it because the reality is that in the last 2 years under this Government we have seen the unemployment benefit numbers go down and we are seeing fewer youth on the unemployment benefit. However under that Government we saw the sickness benefit numbers increase by nearly 50 percent we saw the invalids benefit numbers increase by 50 percent we saw a significant increase in transfers between benefit— 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. That was a very straightforward question from my colleague asking the Minister to reconcile two different things. There was nothing to do with the— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I invite the member to have a look at the  
Hansard 
 as to how that question was initiated how the question was started by Jacinda Ardern. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she claim her welfare reforms are a success by boasting that 5100 people have left the sickness benefit since her reforms but in that same period another 7684 went on meaning the figures are worse now than when she started? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: The member can choose to cut and dice it how she likes but I think we deal with the facts. She does not like the good news that actually more people are in work now and off the benefit than they were 2 years ago and that we are seeing good news happening. We can look at the  
ANZ Business Outlook 
 today which I just saw which said that New Zealand business is at a 19-month high of confidence and we can look at Fisher and Paykel which says that another 100 new jobs are coming on board. I know the member does not like the good news that actually maybe people are getting off benefits and having bigger and better lives— 
Jacinda Ardern 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think that answer went on long enough. Obviously she— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I will determine whether answers go on for too long. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Although it is your responsibility in the end to determine whether or not that is the case members do have the right to ask you to apply Standing Orders and Speakers’ rulings as the member did when you dismissed her in a very rude manner. [ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! I appreciate it is the last day of term. If some members want to leave early and they continue to make noise throughout a point of order they will be leaving early. 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she—[ 
Interruption 
] 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! Someone will certainly be leaving very shortly. [ 
Interruption 
] I am not picking which side at this stage. Has the member got another supplementary question? 
Jacinda Ardern 
: How can she give this House her criteria for success when it comes to her welfare reforms; if so do these criteria include a greater use of sanctions more people leaving the country a reduction in training opportunities fewer jobs and 60000 more people on main benefits than when her welfare reforms started? 
Hon PAULA BENNETT 
: That member is not factually correct. The reality is there are New Zealanders who are better off today than they were 2 years ago due to our welfare reforms. I encourage that and I see the positivity in it. 
Chris Hipkins 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. My colleague Jacinda Ardern asked the Minister what her criteria for success were and she did not address that question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think if you recall she opened her question by asking how the Minister can claim success of the reforms etc. and then went on with a very lengthy question. 
Chris Hipkins 
: No she asked whether she can give the House her criteria for success. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is very hard now to relitigate the issue. That is not the way I recall the question being asked. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: Have a look at the video replay. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I certainly will. Thank you very much for your help Mr Mallard.