12. Question No. 12—EmploymentDr SHANE RETI (National—Whangarei) to the Minister of EmploymentQuestion No. 12—Employment12. Dr SHANE RETI (National—Whangarei) to the Minister of Employment: How do the performance and policies of Mana in Mahi compare with all his employment programmes?Hon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister of Employment): As the member will be aware Mana in Mahi is primarily an apprenticeship-type programme. However it differs from other programmes in that it also recognises employment and qualifications that are industry led and includes pre-employment training incentivised payments that keep participants connected and energised in their placements and provides pastoral care which is why of the 729 participants who have come on to the programme 81 percent have exited benefit dependency and have not returned. These outcomes compare favourably to other similar employment programmes despite Mana in Mahi supporting those most disadvantaged in the labour market. Mana in Mahi is very distinct from other employment programmes I have responsibility for and comparing Mana in Mahi to programmes for example such as He Poutama Rangatahi does a disservice to both.Dr Shane Reti: When he said last week that he has oversight for five critical employment programmes what are those five programmes?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I have oversight for Mana in Mahi He Poutama Rangatahi cadetships through Te Puni Kōkiri the Māori apprenticeship fund skills and jobs hub and regional skills leadership groups. I was one short; it was actually six but thank you for the question. As well as that I have oversight in terms of the New Zealand Employment Strategy which concentrates on vulnerable groups: Māori Pasifika disability sector ethnic groups—all the groups that the National Government forgot.Dr Shane Reti: Does Mana in Mahi have an age cut-off at 24 years of age and if so what proportion of people currently needing employment are automatically ineligible?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: We primarily concentrate in terms of the 18- to 24-year-olds. We are looking to expand the criteria in terms of Mana in Mahi. In terms of the member's question I'll come back to him on that if he wants to put it in writing.Dr Shane Reti: How does Mana in Mahi's projected capacity of 2000 participants compare with National's JobStart which would employ 50000 people?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I think National's JobStart is just a dream like their silly promotion of $5000 or $10000 I think to the employer. Mana in Mahi is a much better programme. As our Prime Minister explained very eloquently yesterday we are looking after the employer we're looking after the worker and in fact we're looking after the community—a community that that member should remember he represents and he appears to have forgotten over the last couple of weeks.Dr Shane Reti: What does it say about work ethic as a performance measure when the statement is made that under Mana in Mahi the employer doesn't have to worry about whether or not a trainee turns up to work every day; and is that statement a fair assessment of Mana in Mahi?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Of course it's not and I'm not sure who said that. It disappoints me that this member has taken that position given the 81 percent success rate in terms of Mana in Mahi—an 81 percent success rate. It's a programme that is incredibly successful and continues to be successful unlike the National Party that just keeps dropping in the polls.Dr Shane Reti: Will he then ask the Prime Minister to correct her statement in the House yesterday given that it was her who said [Mana in Mahi] provides pastoral support so the employer doesn't have to worry about whether or not a trainee shows up … [to] work every day."?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: I think again sadly that's a low-down dirty rotten perspective of what our wonderful Prime Minister said yesterday. He knows that and this House knows that—disgraceful again from Mr Reti.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I know you take a fairly lenient view on some of these more animated questions but I think it's inappropriate for any Minister answering a question to refer to a statement made and recorded in Hansard as low-down and dirty. SPEAKER: I'm relatively prim and proper myself but I think—[Interruption] All right maybe I shouldn't do irony in rulings. I think low-down and dirty is not quite as low-down and dirty as many things that have been said here.Rt Hon Winston Peters: How many reports has he received from excited members of Parliament up north on the enormous Māori Mana in Mahi programmes—for example with KiwiRail and the hundreds of jobs coming there and all sorts of Provincial Growth Fund developments around the north—and how many of the Northland MPs have congratulated him on that?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Well without doubt the New Zealand First MPs have made a huge contribution. Though it's interesting people like Matt King turn up and congratulate us all the time. Northern National MPs they hide—they actually ask us not to reveal their names when they come to Shane Jones' launches. It's been a huge success in the Tai Tokerau and New Zealand First and Labour and the Greens have been working brilliantly in conjunction in terms of getting the nephs off the couch.Marja Lubeck: How does Mana in Mahi compare with other employment initiatives that he has seen?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Kia ora. As the member will be aware Mana in Mahi has been brilliant and I've heard that in terms of the initiative it compares so well with JobStart which has a 5K start-up payment and another 5K to be paid in 90 days. Mana in Mahi on the other hand when you compare Mana in Mahi with that National Party programme is made up of a $9580 wage subsidy but goes further and covers payment for any pre-employment training that is a required incentivised training payment—a total of $25000. So we don't need to create new programmes for the sake of creating them. Mana in Mahi is doing the business at the moment and it's actually embarrassing the National Party so much that they just keep asking questions about it which is fantastic. Dr Shane Reti: What is the average truancy rate for Mana in Mahi over any time frame he chooses given the Prime Minister said yesterday that with Mana in Mahi the employer doesn't have to worry about whether or not a trainee turns up to work every day?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Again I take offence at the member twisting our Prime Minister's words. I'll say again—I'll say again: Mana in Mahi has an 81 percent success rate. It had an 84 percent success rate but it dropped a bit over a couple of weeks by 3 percent to 81 percent. But that indicates to me that Mana in Mahi is still incredibly resilient when over the same period that it dropped I saw the National Party support had dropped by 17 percent.Michael Wood: Does he stand by the performance of Mana in Mahi or would he prefer to write off young people as "pretty damned hopeless"?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Yes sadly I've heard that statement from members from the other side. And you could never write off something that has been so crucial in terms of uplifting young people. You know we renamed that. In fact I renamed the Mana in Mahi programme. It used to be called "working for the dole" which is what the National Party wanted it to be called. So this is a programme that is changing society and changing this country. And I welcome Shane Reti to come to some of our programmes because despite everything I've said about him he is a respected member in the North.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Does the Minister really think that the Government's entire re-employment programme should be based on Mana in Mahi which over its time so far has only placed about 650 people in permanent employment?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Seven hundred and twenty-nine actually Mr Brownlee—729 and—Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. SPEAKER: Oh look this is a warning. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Yes. I'm happy to have your warning.SPEAKER: Right the member's on a warning.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Well the member's just stood up and said that there are 729 permanent jobs. Previously he said there were 729 placements with an 81 percent success rate. So my number is correct; his is wrong.SPEAKER: Order! How long has the member been here? Certainly long enough to know that he doesn't dispute an answer especially partway through it but at all by way of a point of order. Today feels like it's a Thursday afternoon just going into a recess. Again I say I don't know what's in the water on both sides of the House but I will ask people to settle down. And as I've reminded the author of the words earlier further breaches will result in consequences.Marja Lubeck: Thank you Mr Speaker—Hon Gerry Brownlee: No answer.Marja Lubeck: Has the performance—SPEAKER: No. I'll make it very clear. The answer was interrupted by the member and I decided at that point that because he improperly interrupted he didn't want to hear any more. Marja Lubeck: Has the performance of Mana in Mahi been impacted by COVID19?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: Yes it has. Not hugely—not hugely. Hon Gerry Brownlee: What about work from home?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: As I said Mr Brownlee when I appeared before the Epidemic Response Committee Mana in Mahi had a success rate of 84 percent. So over four weeks later on it dropped by 3 percent. So yes it has been affected but only slightly. But it just indicates to me that Mana in Mahi is incredibly resilient unlike the National Party that dropped 17 percent over the last three weeks.Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is the Mana in Mahi flexibility programme able to for example accommodate an ageing politician from the South Island in 3½ months' time?Hon WILLIE JACKSON: We'll take everyone on. We don't discriminate. We don't care what political parties they're affiliated to. And even if Mr Brownlee wants to apply we'll put a good word in for him."