Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
Cosgrove Clayton: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers Questions to Members 
[Volume:652;Page:1474] 
4.  
Hon CLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour—Waimakariri) 
 to the  
Minister of Corrections 
: Has she participated at the invitation of the State Services Commissioner in any performance reviews of the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Corrections) 
: 
 Yes. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Did she seek any advice from the State Services Commissioner on the performance of Mr Matthews; if so what information did she receive and when did she receive it? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: It would be most inappropriate of me to discuss in the House an issue between the chief executive and the State Services Commissioner. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Can she confirm that Mr Matthews received a positive performance appraisal from the State Services Commissioner and that at the time of the appraisal—just last week—the State Services Commissioner was aware of the content of the Auditor-General’s draft report? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No. 
Shane Ardern 
: Why did she ask the State Services Commissioner to establish who is accountable for the findings of the Auditor-General regarding the management of offenders on parole? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I did it because the Auditor-General found widespread non-compliance with sentence management requirements for parole which meant that public safety may have been compromised. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Can she confirm that Mr Matthews was this morning summoned to a meeting with the State Services Commissioner where a proposal was put to him that he resign and if he did so he would be offered a highly paid sweetheart job within the Public Service for the next 6 months? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No and the member should know that the relationship is between the State Services Commission and the chief executive. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Has she taken any advice regarding the law as it applies to constructive dismissal and how much her comments about Mr Matthews to date may end up costing the taxpayer; if she has not is she just trying to grab a couple of headlines for which the taxpayer may end up picking up the tab? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Has she been advised that the Minister of Finance Mr English has received legal advice that indicates that she has compromised the Crown’s legal position in respect of Mr Matthews’ employer which may result in the taxpayer having to pay out—for her mistakes—to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The questioner does not have the right to mislead the House. I have received no such advice nor have I sought it. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not a point of order unless the member wants to make a ministerial statement. 
Hon Bill English 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The member made a statement— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat. Senior members know full well that they cannot use a point of order to dispute a statement made by another member. They can however seek leave to make a personal explanation or a Minister has a right to make a ministerial statement. At the end of a debate a member could take a call and correct a statement. At question time there is no provision in the Standing Orders for that. The member could however seek leave to make a personal statement should he so wish. 
Hon Bill English 
: I seek leave. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to make a personal statement. Is there any objection? 
Hon Members 
: About what? 
Hon Bill English 
: On the matter raised by the questioner. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is seeking leave to make a personal statement in relation to the allegation made by the Hon Clayton Cosgrove. Is there any objection to the—[ 
Interruption 
] Obviously any member is at liberty to deny leave but I do mention to members that it is most unusual to deny members the right to make a personal explanation. I remind members of that. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I point out to you Mr Speaker that the matters raised are about actions in relation to Mr English’s ministerial capacity. He can make a ministerial statement at any time; he does not require leave to do that. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member makes a perfectly valid point of order. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Has she received or sought any advice from the Minister of State Services regarding Mr Matthews’ performance; if so what advice did she receive and when? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: The member will be aware that the relationship is between the State Services Commissioner and the chief executive. It would not be appropriate for me to comment further. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister a direct question as to whether she had received advice from the Minister of State Services and if so when and what that advice was. The answer bore no relation to that. She rabbited on about an employee-employer relationship. I asked— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member is in a fairly delicate area. I draw his attention to Speaker’s ruling 161/1 which states that members are not permitted to ask a Minister to respond to assertions that may have no validity to them—to outlandish assertions. I accept that that question was not in that category. However the previous question clearly was and perhaps I should have pulled the member up at that point. I think it is unreasonable to expect the Minister to respond to some questions on this issue when there are very important issues of privacy. The member needs to be careful in the way he is questioning the Minister on this issue. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. The statute provides that when a performance review is undertaken by the State Services Commission that review is made available to the Minister. We have already heard that there has been a performance review. The member is therefore clearly entitled to ask whether that review has been received by the Minister. Obviously he can ask whether she is prepared to tell us the nature of that review. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Speaking to the point of order the Hon Judith Collins. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: Just to clarify matters I can tell the House that I have not received a performance review. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: That is not helpful because it is not a point of order. The Hon Dr Michael Cullen’s point was a good point of order and he is correct. I invite the Hon Clayton Cosgrove to repeat his question bearing in mind the sound advice given to the House by the Hon Dr Michael Cullen. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not wish to challenge your ruling but I believe we have some difficulty because the Minister may have misled the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member cannot allege that. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I am asking for your advice Mr Speaker—could I finish. The member said in answer to a previous question that she had participated in a performance review. Now in response to a point of order in response to you Mr Speaker she says she has not received it. I see a gross contradiction there. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: This is not a matter of order. Because the member is concerned that his question was not answered I invite him to repeat the question that he put to the Minister so that we can all hear it and can make sure that it is within the Standing Orders. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Has the Minister received or sought advice from the Minister of State Services regarding Mr Matthews’ performance; if so what advice did she receive and when? 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: I have heard reports that Phil Goff has said that I have the power to sack the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections. I have not. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not wish to waste your time but I ask about this matter again. I asked the Minister a specific question: had she received any advice from her colleague. It was nothing to do with Phil Goff or anybody else. I asked her whether she had received advice from a ministerial colleague; and secondly if she had what advice she had received and when. That answer bears no relationship given your specific rulings on this question. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I thank the member. I invite the Minister to answer the question. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: It is inappropriate for me to comment further in relation to the employment of Mr Matthews and his employer. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I will be in debt to your knowledge but I do not see anywhere in the Standing Orders where that question was addressed. She was asked a simple question that Ministers are asked every day: has the Minister received advice from a ministerial colleague? It is a yes or no answer. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will sit down. The member cannot demand a yes or no answer and he should know that as a senior member. I gave the member the chance to restate his question and at the request of the member I asked the Minister to answer it. The Minister gave a perfectly valid answer in that in the public interest she cannot give exactly the answer that the member wanted. That is a perfectly valid answer from the Minister. Every Minister is at liberty to judge that to give the specific answer the member might be looking for is not in the public interest. In respect of some of these issues that is well the case. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I can accept part of your ruling but are you saying that a Minister can now refuse to answer the simple question as to whether he or she received advice? 
Hon Gerry Brownlee 
: That has always been the case in accordance with the ruling you have just repeated for the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I think I have heard quite sufficient on this matter. The honourable member is quite right. It is the Minister’s judgment whether it is in the public interest that a question be answered; the judgment as to that matter lies with the Minister. The Minister has made that judgment and I accept that absolutely. If the member wishes to ask another supplementary question he is at liberty to do so. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am not disagreeing at all with your conclusion but can I just clarify that you are saying that a Minister may decline in the public interest to answer a question of the House but may comment on exactly the same matter to the media? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: What a Minister may say to the media is not my responsibility as Speaker. My responsibility is holding Ministers to account in this House. I believe that I am trying to do that but it is very clear that the Standing Orders say that an answer must be given if it can be given consistent with the public interest. The judgment of that lies with the Minister. The members of the House can also decide whether the Minister has exercised that judgment wisely—it is not for the Speaker to make that decision. 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I slightly unusually support you on that because I can understand the circumstances of this. It is a proper thing for the Minister to do where there is a very large payout at risk— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! 
Hon Trevor Mallard 
: —as a result of the advice coming from the House. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member will resume his seat. The member knows that that was actually abusing the point of order process to make a political point and that is not acceptable. A member as experienced as he is should know better. 
Hon Clayton Cosgrove 
: Can the Minister advise the House whether she has received any legal advice from the private sector or Crown Law regarding the comments she has made publicly in respect of Mr Matthews’ performance in terms of whether those comments may have well put taxpayers’ money at risk and prejudiced the Crown’s position; if so what was that advice and when did she receive it? 
Mr SPEAKER 
: I repeat the Speaker’s ruling that I quoted a moment ago that members should not be permitted to ask a Minister to respond to an outlandish assertion. The assertion that something a Minister has said could cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars is a fairly significant assertion. I invite the Minister to answer the question if she feels able. 
Hon JUDITH COLLINS 
: No.