Mallard Trevor: Holidays (Transfer of Public Holidays) Amendment Bill — Second Reading In Committee Third Reading 
Mallard Trevor: Holidays (Transfer of Public Holidays) Amendment Bill — Second Reading In Committee Third Reading 
[Volume:650;Page:19266] 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Labour) 
: 
 I thank the member and make it clear to Dr Mapp that all I was doing was waiting to see whether there was a more substantive list of issues for me to address because the issues raised should not take too long to deal with. 
The member Kate Wilkinson was right when she indicated that the issue was raised in 2004 but if she had continued to read the report she would have seen that when the issue was raised in 2004 in the Heinz-Wattie case it was not regarded as a problem. The legal understanding at the time was that the employer and employees could make an agreement around that particular shift work issue and in fact all of us and the people who have been involved in this area for quite a long time thought that was the situation. I am sure that Kate Wilkinson as someone who is versed in industrial law probably thought that was the case at the time. Unfortunately in November last year in the Air Line Pilots’ Association and Air New Zealand case the Supreme Court gave a ruling that was not asked for by anybody and it did upset people’s understanding of the law in that particular area. 
There was a more general question about the calculation of holiday pay and it is fair to say that up until a year or 18 months ago making holiday pay calculations was something that businesses especially small and medium sized businesses had some problems with. As a result of that my very good predecessor Ruth Dyson did some work on the issue and it has resulted in a very good holiday pay calculator now sitting on the Department of Labour website. That calculator is extensively used and it has been praised by the Small Business Advisory Group as well as by a number of individual small employers. The ability to work out those calculations is now much easier than it had been. It is a complex area but there is a good computer programme which is easy to feed data into and which takes employers and employees through the process step by step. So that issue has not been raised with me over the last 6 months or so as being a practical problem for employers. 
Then I think we got to a broader issue which is that if employees are allowed to transfer a couple of hours of a public holiday why cannot they transfer it all? I am sorely tempted Madam Assistant Chairperson—but I am sure you will not let me—to broaden the debate quite extensively— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: No. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: —on to the general question of transfer. I will not do that but what I will do in response to the point made by Kate Wilkinson is to say there is a fundamental difference of opinion between the Labour Party and the National Party on this particular range of areas. The Labour Party is of the view that holidays are not for sale and that there should be a balance in the relationship between employers and employees. Especially for people who are in marginal employment situations—people who do not have a lot of power in the workplace—our view is that having employment rights set out in statutes and codes is the proper way of achieving that balance. 
That is why we are not prepared to entertain that member’s suggestion that people should be able to give away their Christmas Day give away their Good Friday or as that member suggested earlier— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: Yes I know but let us contain it. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: I think it was fair for the member to raise that issue. I did not take a point of order about that. The issue might have been marginal to this bill but it is important. The reason we disagree with National is the same reason that we disagree with the proposal of the National Party to cut back the entitlement to holidays—to take it back to 3 weeks. We know what would happen. We know that employers would put pressure on employees— 
Kate Wilkinson 
: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. I think the Minister is straying from the topic at hand quite considerably. If he wants to give an electioneering speech on workplace practice— 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: The point is taken. Do not add to it; do not exacerbate the situation please. Has the Minister finished speaking? 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Not at all. 
The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Marian Hobbs) 
: What a shame! Would the Minister resume the call and please remain close to the subject of the debate. 
Hon TREVOR MALLARD 
: Sure. The debate is as defined by Kate Wilkinson about whether we should be allowed to transfer holidays to other days. Labour says in a very specific instance—in this case where there is a straddling of the holiday by shift work—then yes that is acceptable. But generally we do not believe that employees should be made to give away their holidays which is the National Party’s policy. 
The question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to clause 8 be agreed to: 
to omit from the example in section 44A “would” and substitute “could”. 
Amendment agreed to. 
Clauses 1 to 8 as amended agreed to. 
Bill reported with amendment. 
Report adopted.