Bayly AndrewANDREW BAYLY (National—Port Waikato): Thank you Madam Chair. I must admit that I am just stalling and I don't intend to stall. I'm really keen for a Minister to respond because I've asked two quite significant questions. I think—Hon Dr David Clark: Do reiterate—do reiterate please.ANDREW BAYLY: OK I'll do that at the urging of the Minister. So this issue around non-indigenous plant species is fascinating and it's interesting—the view of my colleague the Hon Judith Collins. Plant varieties as I was saying before evolve either naturally or through genetic engineering but whatever the case what might have been deemed a plant material 600 years ago and where it ends up now and the use it's put towards and how it's applied—because we always assume it's always for a food crop or whatever. I heard the Minister mention a cabbage tree and of course the uses of that product over time—how do you know it doesn't turn out to be a wonderful methane inhibitor for cattle? That's a wild idea.So that's why I think it's really important that we have absolute clarity around what is meant by this non-indigenous plant species because it's pretty quick. I think the Minister identified probably about 12 species in his response earlier on but how do we know it just doesn't migrate and become not only a wider list but actually after a while—you know all plant species have a lot of value and it's been fascinating what's happened with mānuka. The good old days of mānuka being chopped down because it was a pain on hillsides but now with the genetic engineering that's gone on and the wonderfully high levels of protection that mānuka offers—particularly factoring in the honey—how that has transformed that product. But of course mānuka is now used in a wide range of other products such as soaps which have not only a health benefit but then a perfume benefit—right? Of course we've seen it with strawberries we've seen it with apples and the classic is kiwifruit. It was green now it's yellow and now of course it's red. Those are quite deliberate—Melissa Lee: Chinese gooseberry.ANDREW BAYLY: Yeah Chinese gooseberry as Melissa Lee is quite rightly highlighting. Originally it was named that.So there are the uses of plant material as it moves not only in terms of a food source but for other types of purposes and that's why it's very important that for the people who are involved in this propagation of plants and the intellectual property protection around it it's an absolute requirement that there be clarity around what are the protected indigenous species. I find the term non-indigenous" plant species the worrying one and why that's being put into regulations and not hard-wired into the bill—because that's where it should be if it's a definitive list. But also a lot of this can this be challenged because going back to the kiwifruit if that was the original Chinese gooseberry Zespri would've commercialised multiple variants of that plant variety and so what does that mean? Who owns that? Who controls that? Under the bill as it's currently written that is now at their discretion and it's a decision-making discretion rather than an advisory role—as to whether in fact the Māori Plant Varieties Committee will say yes or no. I presume that if they say no the commissioner must respect that and it doesn't even go to the commissioner. Is the commissioner empowered under this bill to say "Well I've heard what the Māori Plant Varieties Committee has said and made a decision on." because that's the way it's framed? Can the commissioner overturn that and say "Well I'm not going to accept that."? I think the Minister is shaking his head so this is interesting."