Smith Nick: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Smith Nick: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:637;Page:7334] 
12.  
Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) 
 to the  
Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues 
: Does he agree with the statement by Roger Dickie of the Kyoto Forestry Association following the release of the Government’s draft land-use strategy last December that: “Imposing massive retrospective taxes on the one industry capable of sequestering carbon is sheer idiocy”? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON (Minister of Agriculture) 
on behalf of the 
Minister responsible for Climate Change Issues 
: Not surprisingly no he does not agree. The Government’s  
Sustainable Land Management and Climate Change 
 discussion document which I assume the member is referring to does not propose imposing any retrospective taxes—massive or otherwise. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: What responsibility does his Government accept for the massive rates of deforestation that occurred in 2004 2005 and 2006 noting that for all of the preceding 50 years New Zealand had planted more trees than it had cut down and noting that the carbon losses from trees already felled amount to 50 times the projected savings from the window-dressing announcements from the Prime Minister yesterday? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: I do not want to suggest that the member himself—or any other member of the Opposition—is responsible for deforestation or land management issues; I just want to point out that in November last year a document was tabled in this House that showed that the rate of deforestation under the previous National Government was higher than any deforestation rate that is going on now. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: I seek leave to table the figures of the Minister’s own ministry showing the plummet from 60000 hectares of new forest planting during the 9 years of the National Government to net deforestation in all of the last 3 years. 
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: I raise a point of order Madam Speaker. I ask whether that document goes back to the rates of deforestation in the 1980s and 1990s. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Absolutely. 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: It does? Well I have no objection. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: There was no objection; it was a point of clarification. 
R Doug Woolerton 
: Does the Minister believe that it is important to discourage deforestation and is he concerned that deforestation is a feature of Mr Graeme Hart’s ownership of Carter Holt Harvey? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: As we speak the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the ministry dealing with climate change issues has a major discussion document on deforestation and the means to address it being consulted through communities right throughout New Zealand. Deforestation is a serious issue—not just for New Zealand but for the whole world. A number of proposals in that document would address the issue and we are waiting to have the feedback from the communities of New Zealand particularly those in the forestry industry to help determine what the Government itself decides will be done. I note however that the National Party actually agrees with one of those proposals which is tradable permits. I am pleased to have its support for that and we may well get some cross-parliamentary agreement on it. 
Lynne Pillay 
: Has the Government costed Mr Dickie’s proposed climate change policies? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: Yes. It is estimated that Mr Dickie’s proposal to place no controls on deforestation and to give windfall credits to Kyoto Protocol forest owners would give the taxpayers of New Zealand $1.89 billion. To meet this cost it would be necessary for the Government to impose many hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of charges on the farming community for methane emissions that it can do little about. If the National Party supports Mr Dickie’s proposals—and one can only assume that it does given that Matthew “Hollow Men” Hooten is running Mr Dickie’s campaign—then I am interested to know when the National Party plans to tell its rural constituents the farming community what size of bill they will get if we are unfortunate enough ever to have a National Government in charge of this country. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Does the Minister accept that his proposal for a deforestation tax of $13000 a hectare is contributing negatively to climate change by encouraging the chainsaws to start up early; and why does the Government not learn the lesson from its “fart tax” and its carbon tax which it had to drop and accept that the Government has again stuffed it up that it is on a loser and that it should cut its losses and drop the proposal immediately? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: That does not sound to me like a question from a party that is deeply concerned about climate change issues in this country or about anything else. I just told the House that the Government understands—even if the National Party does not—that deforestation is a major issue. As a country we have to work our way through managing it. If we do nothing emissions from deforestation will be equal to the increase in emissions from agriculture and transport. There are also many other environmental impacts from deforestation not to mention flooding and nutrient run-off. At the moment society and the environment are paying the full cost for deforestation and those who are taking advantage of the opportunity to cut down their trees are socialising their profits and capitalising their losses so that the rest of the community pays the bill. That is not acceptable to this Government any more than it is acceptable to the whole of New Zealand society. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: Can the Minister explain to the House what is fair when foresters are encouraged to plant trees so that they can get credits and the Government takes the credits from them; then if they dare change land use the Government says that it will whack a tax on them and is then somehow surprised that foresters want to get in and cut their trees down early? 
Hon JIM ANDERTON 
: There is no proposal to charge those people who have trees in the ground $13000 a hectare for the privilege of having them or of cutting them—none. There is not one single proposal to charge them for that. That is the cost of deforestation to the whole community of New Zealand and if the member read the document clearly he would understand that. I repeat that the people of New Zealand fully comprehend the enormity of climate change. Deforestation makes an enormous contribution to that. We need to deal with it and we will not be dealing with it in a way that Dr Smith is representing Mr Dickie’s wanting to take all the profit for himself and put all the money and the cost on everyone else in the community except him. When Mr Dickie planted those trees and those around him also did so there was no such thing as carbon credits or liabilities and both have to be considered now in this new era. 
Hon Dr Nick Smith 
: It seems that the Minister has not read the Government’s own document so I seek leave to table page 63 of  
Sustainable Land Management and Climate Change 
 which has Mr Anderton’s and Mr Parker’s picture on the front. It states that a charge will be set at $13000 a tonne for deforestation. 
Madam SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? Yes there is objection.