Delahunty Catherine: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
Delahunty Catherine: Questions for Oral Answer — Questions to Ministers 
[Volume:678;Page:1237] 
7. 
CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) 
 to the  
Minister of Education 
: Does she agree with Treasury that increasing class sizes will assist educational outcomes for students; if so why? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS (Associate Minister of Education) 
 on behalf of the Minister of Education: Treasury never made the claim but the Minister of Education does agree with Treasury in its independent observations when it said “it is the quality of teaching that ultimately matters most to lifting student achievement.” 
Catherine Delahunty 
: How does the Minister propose to meet the Government’s goal of reducing underachievement when all the evidence says that a smaller class size is required for struggling children? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: I am proud that this Government has open and transparent goals for 85 percent of New Zealanders to achieve National Certificate of Educational Achievement level 2. That is somewhat of an increase on the current outcomes which tends to imply that the current system the current ratios perhaps are not working for a huge proportion of our young. 
Catherine Delahunty 
: Have the parents of this country asked her to increase class sizes to assist their children’s learning? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: I am not aware of parents having done that but I do note that the parents of many New Zealanders—in fact about 47 percent of all New Zealanders—voted for this National Government and the policies it put out for a brighter future for education at the last election.  
Catherine Delahunty 
: How many teachers and principals have asked her to increase class sizes to assist them in teaching those children who are struggling to learn? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: Again I cannot directly answer that one but I am somewhat interested in the member’s fixation on ratios which— 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Order! The Minister said he could not answer the question and that is an answer. We do not need to go on to other extraneous matters.  
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Will she rule out increasing class sizes for new entrants given the weight of evidence that shows that smaller class sizes improve achievement in early years or does she believe there is no correlation between class size and educational achievement? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: There are all sorts of documents and inquiries. Professor Hattie has recently had information in that space. Once again there is a fixation on absolute ratios be they for new entrants or right through the school. We are concentrating on the educational outcomes for all New Zealanders.  
Catherine Delahunty 
: Has she read the results of the Picking up the Pace literacy project in South Auckland in 2002 which found “a significant relationship between class sizes for new entrants and the gains made in their achievement levels” and would she agree with one of the teachers involved in the study that reducing junior class sizes from 28 pupils to 15 had an amazing impact on her pupils’ learning? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: I am sorry I cannot answer on whether the Minister has read that one or not.  
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: Has she read Treasury’s other report written in 2001 on class sizes based on a longitudinal study undertaken in New Zealand which found that smaller class sizes significantly improved test score growth as well as early adult outcomes and if so does she then agree that increasing class sizes would be detrimental to student achievement? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: Once again ratios are but one input of all those things that help a child or a young New Zealander to learn. There is teacher quality the environment the child came from as well as one of the other inputs being ratios. 
Catherine Delahunty 
: Is the Minister aware that increasing class sizes by just two students would reduce secondary school teacher numbers by about 2000 and does she intend to make cuts to teacher staffing numbers as per Treasury’s advice? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: I am not quite sure that that is the actual advice in that report. Remember it was an independent report from the Secretary to the Treasury. But once again one two or three extra students or fewer students per classroom—if it does deliver a better educational outcome then we should look at that. All advice is to be considered.  
Catherine Delahunty 
: Rather than listening to Treasury which is not the expert and increasing class sizes is the Minister prepared to listen to parents teachers and principals who all want smaller class sizes for their most vulnerable learners? 
Hon CRAIG FOSS 
: I am quite sure the Minister is listening very carefully to the loud shout of New Zealanders who are not satisfied and are not happy with the educational outcomes of so many New Zealanders. That is why this Government is focused on their outcomes. 
Catherine Delahunty 
: I seek leave to table the report of the secondary schools staffing group that addresses class sizes which was released on the Ministry of Education’s website.  
Mr SPEAKER 
: It is a document that is already on the website. Members have got access to that. 
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: I seek leave to table a Treasury report that shows that class sizes do have an impact on learning outcomes.  
Mr SPEAKER 
: What Treasury report is this?  
Hon Nanaia Mahuta 
: This Treasury report is a 2001 report. 
Mr SPEAKER 
: Leave is sought to table that document from 2001. Is there any objection? There is no objection.  
Document by leave laid on the Table of the House. 
Gareth Hughes 
: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I am sorry to return to Catherine Delahunty’s request to table a document. This often comes up in the House. We table an official report be it from the OECD or whatever but it is on a website. The fact that it is on a website should not rule it out of being tabled as information to this House.  
Mr SPEAKER 
: The member makes a fair point but the particular document being referred to is readily available. The document that the Hon Nanaia Mahuta sought to table would be less readily available I suspect being an older document. That is why I checked on the publication date of the document. The purpose of tabling documents is not to try to score political points. The purpose of tabling documents is to provide to the House information that members would not otherwise have available to them and members should remember that.