Simmonds Penny; Davis KelvinPENNY SIMMONDS (National—Invercargill): Thank you Madam Chair. I'm enormously disappointed that the Minister Kelvin Davis has turned this personal and talked about crocodile tears". Can I assure him that having worked with Te Wānanga o Aotearoa for over two decades I saw people like Rongo Wetere who went through not only financial sacrifice but enormous personal sacrifice both for him and his family as their reputations were torn apart as they tried to establish and grow their wānanga. So there are no crocodile tears here; there is real understanding of the sacrifices that were made.I'm pleased that the work was done with the wānanga and there has been no criticism of that. Indeed that's what I'm saying; there should have been more time more focus entirely on working with the wānanga to get all these components of the implementation correct. And so my question to the Minister is that everything that was done was in accordance with what the wānanga wanted. Can you tell me did the wānanga ask to be called "category A wānanga" "category B wānanga" "category C wānanga"?Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (Māori Education)): Thank you. Look the member has to realise that the path that has been taken is the path that was chosen by the wānanga. There was intensive engagement over probably five years to get to this point and it is the substance of the bill that is the most important. So the initial naming was a "Crown entity" and a "non-Crown entity" and that wasn't satisfactory to the wānanga so this is just basically a placeholder so that the time can be taken to get the names right. But there needs to be appropriate consultation because the whole term "wānanga" is contentious in itself in that universities can call themselves "whare wānanga" but the wānanga can't call themselves "university" because of the protected term. Also various iwi and hapū and whānau hold wānanga. We don't want them to think that they would be excluded from using "wānanga". So there needs to be a discussion in Te Ao Māori about the use of it and the appropriate names. So that that will take some time.But the substance of this bill is what is most important to the wānanga and the name can come at an appropriate time in the future when everybody has had the appropriate discussions around the names for the types of wānanga they will be.PENNY SIMMONDS (National—Invercargill): Thank you Madam Chair. I think the Minister has answered the question himself that if there had been sole focus in this legislation on the wānanga amendments then that could have been worked through. Can I just make it very clear that the majority of submissions to this bill were about the sex sexuality and gender of seconded board members. That's what took up the time of the select committee. That was what the focus was on and the Minister is quite right the focus should be on the consultation with wānanga but it should have been in its own legislation. It should have been totally concentrated on and focused on that because that was important to get the implementation right and instead they have been asked to compromise. They have graciously agreed to it but I can almost guarantee that at the start of this process they did not put their hands up and say "Please call us category A category B and category C wānanga." They should have been given the respect the time the concentration and the focus to get not only the core of the changes here right but the implementation right.Hon KELVIN DAVIS (Associate Minister of Education (Māori Education)): In a perfect world maybe what the member says would be great but in my perfect world this would have happened 183 years ago."