4. Intelligence and Security—Russian Intelligence Activity in New ZealandHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National—Ilam) to the Minister responsible for the NZSISIntelligence and Security—Russian Intelligence Activity in New Zealand4. Hon GERRY BROWNLEE (National—Ilam) to the Minister responsible for the NZSIS: Does he agree with Rt Hon Winston Peters who said in the House yesterday that NZSIS advises it is aware of Russian intelligence activity in New Zealand and where it is seen appropriate action is taken"; if so what is that action?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs) on behalf of the Minister responsible for the NZSIS: On behalf of the Minister responsible for the NZSIS yes. The member is well aware of the longstanding precedent in this House that we do not discuss intelligence operational matters. It is not in the public interest to more fully address the member's question except to say that I have confidence in the NZSIS and the Government has a range of powers at its disposal to protect our country and its people and we will use them when it's appropriate to do so.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I think the answer to that question was a perfectly reasonable statement if you were wanting to make clarification about something but the question was: if there are spies known to be in New Zealand what action is being taken? Now simply saying we're not going to tell the country what the SIS do is unacceptable. If they're being deported we need to know they're being deported. Otherwise we should release the profile so that the general public can assist the SIS—SPEAKER: Order! The member will resume his seat. The Minister quite clearly indicated that it was not in the public interest to make any further comment on it and the question was addressed. And I think that member knows better than any other that more specific answers especially in this area cannot be insisted on.Hon Gerry Brownlee: When he said—that's the Minister for the Security Intelligence Service—Mr Peters is almost certainly correct what does the word "almost" suggest Mr Peters has missed out?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: It's just the precaution of a well-trained lawyer not behaving in the absolutist way that is the penchant of that member and by putting that caveat on that he is almost certainly correct knowing that later on in the day he could have the discussion and reassure himself of not having any doubt at all about being correct.Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I wonder if we might be permitted to get that answer again because it's not sure which person was speaking to who—SPEAKER: Well I thought it was quite clear. The Minister speaking was the Minister in charge of the SIS.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Right so presumably he had the discussion with Mr Peters and was elucidated and would therefore today be able to answer the question.SPEAKER: Well it is absolutely clear to me that the Minister acting for the Minister in charge of the SIS indicated that he had a meeting with Mr Peters yesterday.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Does the SIS or the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) or both have access to a measurable profile against which other countries have identified the types of spies or diplomats suitable for expulsion?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: The NZSIS made it very clear to the Government that they had specifically looked as other countries have at the personnel of the Russian Embassy and that no one there in their judgment and the judgment of Five Eyes partners as well as being a likelihood fitted the profile. That being the case we decided not to go down town grab a couple of Russian names and throw them out of the country. Hon Gerry Brownlee: Shame they weren't Chinese-sounding names—they might have gone. Supplementary?Hon Grant Robertson: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr Brownlee has prefaced every question he's attempted to ask today with an out of order remark. You are very strict on both sides of the House around this matter and I just ask for the continuation of that.SPEAKER: I will be watching Mr Brownlee. Mr Brownlee gets a little bit of leniency as a result of being the shadow Leader of the House but he should not abuse it.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Is the reason he declined to define Russian intelligence activity on the grounds it might "potentially disclose the way our agencies operate." because our agencies are asleep and oblivious to what the rest of the free world appears to know?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I regard that as an absolute affront to an agency that he had some connection with just five months ago. If this country was the subject of that sort of intelligence activity why on earth didn't he and the Foreign Minister take charge of it back then rather than making the story up now? Can I just say this here for example—SPEAKER: Order! What I'm not prepared to have is members accusing other members of making stories up in the House. What that is is an indication that members are not telling the truth and are doing it deliberately and that is a breach of the Standing Orders. You will withdraw thank you.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I withdraw and apologise. But can I just say this: when a member of Parliament says "but he didn't criticise Russia as almost every New Zealand friend or ally around the world did"—that's on 29 March—and yet on 30 March this statement went out in my name: "How this military grade nerve agent was transported from Russia and released abroad is the key issue here and warrants urgent international investigation." That went out 48 hours before the Australians reacted. So let's have an end to that humbug.Hon Gerry Brownlee: If the New Zealand SIS had been able to inform the Government that there is Russian espionage carried out on New Zealand soil why haven't those spies been apprehended and deported?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: First of all the NZSIS has made it very clear that they have in the past found such activity and taken action. But the real question that people will be asking now is: how is it that on 23 October 2017 people that hitherto had not operated in this country or for which there was no evidence at all according to the GCSB and the SIS were all of a sudden all around this country? That member should ask himself why it is he's making the allegation now that this has all happened since the last election. That's a humbug it's not true and I wish you would stop doing that.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Can the Minister confirm that there was action taken post the event he refers to—he referred to it today in fact in one of his supplementary question answers—and can he further confirm that it was post the poisoning in Salisbury that the rest of the world has taken strong steps to show their disapproval of the way the Russians have been operating but New Zealand is clearly out of step with that?Hon Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. Much as I'm sure the Minister would like to answer that the member questioning is asking about the actions of a previous Government or the actions that took place during the tenure of a previous Government—something that yesterday they were objecting to Ministers commenting on.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Point of order. SPEAKER: No.Hon Gerry Brownlee: He asked the question.SPEAKER: No well there is an extra point and I am going to allow the member to contribute. The core of the question goes to the activities of foreign Governments and is a question about whether the Minister in charge of the SIS is responsible for that. What I'm going to do is I'm going to ask Mr Brownlee to rephrase his question in an attempt to get it within the Standing Orders.Hon Gerry Brownlee: Has the Minister responsible for the NZSIS received any congratulatory messages from our Five Eyes partners on the stance this Government's taken over Russia?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Can I just say on behalf of the Minister—Brett Hudson: Is that a no?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: No I haven't answered the question yet—and why doesn't a hopeless nincompoop like you keep quiet for a second. Can I say on behalf of the Minister that he and his Cabinet colleagues and the Prime Minister have been the recipients of enormous praise from our Five Eyes partners and people all over the world—including a conversation I had with the UK High Commissioner this morning; as recent as that. So let's have an end to this attack on a very responsible Government doing its duty in a very principled way.SPEAKER: I'm just going to ask—because I've picked up something in the middle of that question. I'm going to ask the Minister acting for the Minister in charge of the SIS to indicate which Minister it was who met with the High Commissioner this morning.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Mr Speaker you'll recall I said—well the Minister was me but I did say that the Minister in charge of the SIS and his Cabinet colleagues have been the recipient of a whole lot of accolades from abroad one of which was as late as this morning. That's how I connected it within the Standing Orders.SPEAKER: And it was "he met" not "I met"?Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: Yeah precisely.SPEAKER: Right. Thank you."