Rich Katherine: Corrections (Mothers with Babies) Amendment Bill — Second Reading 
Rich Katherine: Corrections (Mothers with Babies) Amendment Bill — Second Reading 
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KATHERINE RICH (National) 
: 
 It is a delight to stand here and speak to the second reading of the Corrections (Mothers with Babies) Amendment Bill. Those listening might think that peace has broken out across the House and that does happen from time to time when there is a good idea and it is workable. Some of the changes that have been made through the select committee process have really enhanced the bill so I would like to pay tribute to the members on the Law and Order Committee who have played that role. 
The member who just resumed his seat Mita Ririnui made the very important point that initiatives like these can go a long way towards reducing intergenerational crime and recidivism and towards making changes to some families who really do need some kind of circuit-breaker in order to have change in their lives. Although Sue Bradford pointed out quite rightly that we are talking about a small number of families—a small number of mothers—this initiative will make a huge difference I think in forming good connections within those families. I cannot point to any particular academic evidence that would prove it at this point but I just have a belief that when one looks at the love that a mother has for her baby and that innate connection one sees that this can be something that becomes a strength in that mother’s life and she can work on that. As a result of that many problems can be solved along the way. 
The other thing is that when we look at the inmates currently in our prisons we see that they are there for a wide range of reasons. Simply because a woman has committed some crime it does not necessarily follow that she is a bad mother that she does not have a love for her children or that that connection is not going to be something that is positive in her life. I can think of one woman in particular who was done for bank fraud. She was breastfeeding her child at the time and letters were written to the editor about this issue. She had to break off from breastfeeding simply to go into prison. I have maintained an ongoing connection with a constituent of mine. Some members may remember that she was handcuffed during labour and the birth of her baby. I will never forget the pain she went through and the process she went through when she was told that she was not even allowed to start breastfeeding because she would not have her baby with her in prison—she would not be eligible. 
It might come as a surprise to a number of members in the House that women in prison have had the right to keep their babies with them since about 1961. There is a regulation that says there is that right with babies under the age of 6 months. But the reality is that in all of those decades there have not been the facilities to allow that to happen. So there has also been an access problem with facilities and good facilities. I think the self-management units were a step forward but the reality for a lot of inmates was that the idea of having a baby brought in for breastfeeding a number of times during the day was never going to be practical. If we look at the placement of a lot of our prisons we find that inmates have to have access to resources and people who are going to bring in the baby at certain times. I know that a lot of women just gave up. 
I think the success of this bill will hang on the quality of the facilities. If we look at some of the facilities that have been set up in the United Kingdom and Australia—in fact almost everywhere around the world except Slovakia and New Zealand; we are really out on our own on this one—we find that there are plenty of really good examples of the way it has worked. These centres or mother and baby units—whatever we want to call them—are very structured. They have mothers engaged in plans which is part of the bill. Mothers sign up to a plan for their babies and to a set of rules and guidelines. If those rules and guidelines are breached in certain circumstances there are consequences. But the big thing is that the best interests of the child are paramount. The safety of the child is paramount. That is the overriding feature that is strongly protected and preserved in this bill. There will be some really tough cases where the department has to say: “No we’re going to make a decision. This is not the best place for the baby to stay with you.” There will still be some heartbreak about that in the prison system; there will be some tough calls. 
I do not want to see a system that is similar in some cases to Child Youth and Family where babies and children are kept with parents at all costs basically beyond common sense and in some circumstances to the detriment of the children. I think this will work only if there are common-sense guidelines. If mothers do sign up to those guidelines they need to understand that it is a relationship and there are some rules and that there are good support networks around these mothers. I think it will take a lot more than just having regular Plunket visits. 
I was quite shocked actually when I visited Christchurch Women’s Prison and was told that none of the staff who were involved with any of the babies who had been at the prison from time to time had early childhood education experience or some kind of knowledge of working around small children. I think that in the long term working with various non-governmental organisations there is an opportunity to make sure that we structure more support around these parents. It is not a case of just opening up a centre and saying: “Go for it. It’s almost like being at home except you can’t leave.” We have an opportunity where we literally have a captive audience to be able to deliver some parenting advice some guidelines and some training. For a lot of these mothers the reality is that they have not necessarily had the good parenting skills handed down to them from their mothers their grandmothers and their great-aunts that many of the members of this House have enjoyed and got a lot from. 
I am very keen to see the maintenance of breastfeeding. It is kind of a shame that that had to be clarified because I do not think anybody ever assumed that women who chose not to breastfeed or who were not able to do that would be disadvantaged somehow. But I think it was a good idea to clarify that if that had been a concern during the select committee process. 
I have found it quite moving to read some of the submissions and to hear some of the personal stories of people who have written to us and told us of their experiences. Although some people in our communities say that a baby should never be in prison I really think they are in a minority. As Judith Collins said we do not want to see any babies in prisons frankly but we have to ensure that we get real. A lot of women inmates have children of varying ages—and I think that the age will go up over time as well—and we want to maintain their connections. Once they get out they will still be mothers. I can think of one constituent who has felt an enduring loss at not being able to keep her baby and pain at not being able to have a connection—the same connection any mother enjoys with her baby—when she left prison and found that her toddler had a stronger connection with the grandmother than with her. That is something that she probably will not recover from over time. 
So here is the start. It is all dependent on the quality of the facilities and the support we put around them. The safety of the child is paramount. I think that everybody is in agreement with that. We have to have the right people in the prisons and proper rehabilitation and proper services. Members would be appalled to hear that when I asked the question about rehabilitation in Christchurch Women’s Prison right now I was told there was ping-pong and that was about it. Well I think we can do more for our mothers. We can do more for our inmates to ensure that once they leave they are better people and they have the skills they need to be mothers on the inside and more important mothers on the outside. 
Hon Damien O’Connor 
: Tell that to Simon Power. 
KATHERINE RICH 
: That member over there should not chip in because when I asked him how many women gave birth in prison he told me that it was not important enough for his department to actually count the numbers even though Matt Robson had done that. It is 10 a year which is not hard to count I tell Mr O’Connor—not hard to count. It is obvious when women have babies; people can kind of notice. So I do not think it would have been a big thing to count them. 
I thank all those who are involved with this legislation. I think this is a really major step forward for our country. 
Debate interrupted.