Ryall Tony: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
Ryall Tony: Courts and Criminal Matters Bill — Second Reading Instruction to Committee In Committee 
[Volume:626;Page:21669] 
Hon TONY RYALL (National—Bay Of Plenty) 
: 
 The National Party in Opposition believes that this bill is a wasted opportunity to deal with the growing mountain of court and reparation debt in this country. That mountain of debt is now over $600 million and in fact the vast majority of that $600 million is overdue. So the mountain of debt owed by criminals and those who have been fined up and down the country is escalating on a level that is unbelievable. The Law and Order Committee’s own report states that the total debt in June 2003 was $500 million. In less than 2 years it has grown to $600 million. So a lot more action is needed to deal with this mountain of debt. 
Why should we be worried about the mountain of debt? For a number of reasons. This debt has come because many people have been punished for their offending and have been fined and they are not paying. They have not faced up to their accountabilities. It gets worse because in the last year under Labour’s law $40 million of those fines have been wiped. The suffering of the victims could not be wiped. We should also be concerned because there is a growing mountain of debt owed to the victims of crime in New Zealand. Those reparations are going uncollected. 
What can be done? If the Government were truly serious about dealing with the mountain of debt owed by fines defaulters in this country it would improve the level of information sharing between the Inland Revenue Department the Ministry of Social Development and the Ministry of Justice. But there are constraints on the information that can be provided in order to locate those fines defaulters and those constraints need to be removed. Those who are being denied justice—the victims and the Crown—deserve to get their money. 
The Government promotes this bill as some great new device to collect debts from fines defaulters. [ 
Interruption 
] The Minister says “Yes it is too.” Let me look at the numbers. Wait for this. Do members remember that when the Minister introduced this bill he said it would be really tough on fines defaulters who left the country from airports? We asked the officials how many people would be stopped at airports by a warrant for arrest for being a fines defaulter. A hundred? Several hundred? Several thousand? The answer was 35. 
Lindsay Tisch 
: How many? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: It was 35. The Government introduced a bill that it said would crack down on fines defaulters leaving from airports. The number of people to be affected? It was 35 not 3500 or 35000. There is a $600 million mountain of debt and Rick Barker’s bill for fixing it means that 35 people will be stopped at airports. That is tough. It is about as tough as Phil Goff’s sentencing bill. Thirty-five people would be stopped at airports. 
So the Government majority on the select committee acquiesced and decided to toughen up the bill. The Opposition party members said that surely we should be serious about this. If people can afford overseas airfares which start at $189 with conditions they can afford to pay their fines. So the Government reduced the threshold. The Opposition parties—National New Zealand First and United Future—said we should go further and make it work but the Government said that it would drop down the threshold in this get-tough bill to a fine of $5000 and a warrant for arrest. 
Let me go through the numbers. There is $600 million of debt owed. Well over $350 million I believe is overdue. The Government says it will stop people going out of the country through the airports and will save money for New Zealand victims and the justice system. What did the officials say? They said that the bill as amended will stop 117 people at airports. 
 That is how many people will be stopped at airports according to this bill. That is all—117 will be stopped at airports. Do members know how much the officials said would be saved by this bill—how much would be collected? It is $1.5 million. 
Lindsay Tisch 
: How much? 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: It is $1.5 million. We have a growing mountain of debt in this country—$600 million; it could even be higher with the way that this Government has dishonestly hidden the Kyoto Protocol stuff—and this Government has brought in a bill to tackle the debt owed by fines defaulters that will collect $1.5 million. That is 0.25 percent of the debt owed by fines defaulters in this country. What a wasted opportunity. 
When the Opposition parties said that we should improve the information regime and get all the addresses phone numbers workplace information and personal details of fines defaulters so that we could go after them that we should lower the threshold at which we will stop people at international airports so that we can actually get the money and that we should back the call centres and look at the efficiencies of the Ministry of Justice’s collections systems what did the Government say? It said it would get tough with a bill that will stop 117 people from leaving the country and collect less than 0.25 percent of the fines owed in this country. 
That does not deal with the problem. We have to get that debt mountain down because it is money that is owed to victims of crime or is a punishment for offending. It is money that could be used elsewhere in the State sector to improve the quality of public services and to provide benefits for New Zealanders. That is what the money could be used for. The Government is not taking the issue seriously. This bill is a wasted opportunity. The Government could have brought in changes to information sharing. It could have brought in much tougher criteria for people leaving the country if they owe fines. It could have provided improved resources for the Ministry of Justice’s collections systems. But instead we have some flim-flam that will stop 117 people at the airports and collect less than 0.25 percent of the debt mountain owed by fines defaulters in this country. 
It is not a lot. In itself $1.5 million is a lot of money but as a proportion 0.25 percent of the $600 million owed by fines defaulters in New Zealand is hardly worth the effort. But we tell this Government to take the opportunity during the Committee stage to move amendments that will improve information sharing lower the thresholds at which we can stop people at international airports and improve the collections systems of the Ministry of Justice. I guarantee the Government that it will get 120 votes in favour of those changes. 
Hon Dr Michael Cullen 
: Can’t guarantee it. 
Hon TONY RYALL 
: Well I cannot essentially guarantee it but I would expect to see 120 votes in favour of those changes. That is the point. 
Government members should wipe the grin off their face especially in light of a poll that will be coming out in the next 3 days. For them to stand up in Parliament and say that they will get tough on 117 fines defaulters is hopeless.