Kuriger BarbaraBARBARA KURIGER (National—Taranaki - King Country): Thank you Madam Assistant Speaker. Look I went through this bill before but after listening to the speakers the clarity with which we read stuff in this piece of legislation becomes very unclear and I'm really looking forward to the committee stage to hear some of the explanations from the Minister of Finance to some of the questions that have been asked today. Because to be honest all that's happened over that side of the House is the issue has been confused. So just a few examples here in that we had Tracey Martin actually when she was doing her presentation she talked about how seniors were struggling. So then Tracey Martin why are we giving them less money? If the seniors are struggling why are we giving them less money? This package does not seriously address the issue. We've had other speakers like Deborah Russell who was just up and Iain Lees-Galloway who got up before and talked about 88000 people being lifted out of poverty and that's by 2021.I refer back to what Grant Robertson said earlier today about it is not always the numbers that are the only thing that's important; it's about helping people. So you can actually give people more money but you've also got to put some other tools around some of those people to help them. There's a very well-known saying that says you can give a person a fish and you can feed them for a day or you can teach them how to fish and you can feed them for a lifetime. So while extra money is important in people's pockets—I had a visitor today from the budgeting service and some of you on the other side know that person very well. Now that budgeting service runs a good organisation that actually helps people. I think it would be quite advisable maybe for Grant Robertson to go along to the budgeting service and see if he can get some really good tips out of it.This piece of legislation is leaving people out. It would be helpful for Duncan Webb to know that in our provincial electorates we have truck drivers we have plumbers we have electricians we have baristas and we have coffee makers we have all of those people and guess what? They just lost a thousand dollars each.The other thing I find really really valuable in our communities—and Mr Hipkins might be interested in this when he's finished doing his research about the repeal and revoke—is that we have a whole lot of primary schools who have 10 12 13 students in them. They're very very important geographically where they are. A lot of the people that support those schools are the grandparents. They are a three four five generations' school. You're actually whipping money off those grandparents which actually logically they don't spend that money on themselves. They donate it back to the schools. We had Jan Logie talking before about people fund-raising for crayons for school. Well actually those people they take great pride in going back to their own school and they take great pride in spending money. If you've ever been to an auction at any of those schools some of those cakes that those kids make their grandparents pay a fortune for. So you're actually just distinctly disadvantaging the population.Now the other reason I would like an explanation on some of this and I'm sure that a whole lot of people out here watching this tonight would like explanations—let me just quote you something out of an email that was sent to one of our members today about the heating allowance. It says Can you explain how it is calculated that two people heating their lounge get $700 and a single person heating the lounge gets $450? Something not right here. This is discrimination against a single person. This is"—Hon Tracey Martin: They're emailing the wrong person.BARBARA KURIGER: Excuse me this person's written in and wants some answers from Mr Robertson so maybe if you listen Mr Robertson might be able to answer these questions. "Please don't say you cannot arrange for the discrimination to be adjusted. Surely it would have been made on a residence basis at $700. Again what happens if three pensioners are living together? Do they claim $450 each to heat the room? Something not right here." Again what happens if a pensioner is living in a flat with power included in rent?Hon Tracey Martin: Tell them to email the party in Government. We'll answer it.BARBARA KURIGER: Look I am actually asking you general questions that have been sent in by members of the public because we're standing here and we can't get any common sense about it.With the heating allowance the other thing we've talked about today is that people can go out of the country for a period of time and then they're not eligible for the heating allowance. I believe it's four weeks and I believe they can go out a number of times at that rate. Again it's another layer of red tape. How on earth are we ever going to find out—our sniffer dogs and our detector dogs at the border they're absolutely fantastic but this doesn't pass the sniff test. What are we going to do? Our customs officers are busy looking for drugs and they're busy looking for people that shouldn't be coming into the country and now we're going to ask them to actually target people who are going out of the country for a holiday in the cold and getting away with not paying back their heating allowance.Hon Kelvin Davis: Barbara that's stupid.BARBARA KURIGER: The other thing—well it is stupid. It is stupid. So when we get to the committee stage I want you to actually—The ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Poto Williams): Excuse me not "you"—thank you.BARBARA KURIGER: —explain to me—sorry Madam Assistant Speaker; I would like the Minister to explain to me why that is so stupid.We've had a number of conversations throughout this debate about targeting. We had Jan Logie stand up before and she talked about targeting creating stigma. Now most people when you go to them and you offer them the opportunity for help if they know the places to go and they know the resources they can use they are very very relieved by an offer of help. We have a very good example of that and that is—I'm just using it as an example relating to stigma and targeting—in the area of mental health. We have spent a lot of time targeting—Dr Duncan Webb: Bill.BARBARA KURIGER: Yeah no it's an example related to the bill. We are talking about targeting. For so long people on mental health have felt targeted and now they're free. Actually they're owning up and it's a great relief to them all to be able to stand up and say that—you know bring it out in the open and get some help. So I don't think Jan Logie's argument stacks up. If we use targeting and we use it to help find people that need help and we actually have the right services and programmes set up around those people we have a far better chance of lifting those people out of poverty. So you can talk about 88000 people being lifted out of poverty by a certain date and I think most people in this country would be very thrilled if that were to happen but everybody's watching with interest because you cannot do that with a policy like this alone. You have to be out there. You have to be targeting people. You have to know who they are. You ask anybody in the community who those people are—they know and those people are quite prepared to go out and offer help to those people that need it with the right structures around them.The last point I want to make is about the Best Start package and I don't think anyone in this House would want to deny people with young families who need that money. I also need to inform Jan Logie that this side of the House doesn't believe that babies are made in factories. We actually know where they come from despite her comments before. I've just recently had a new grandchild and they're very precious. But we don't need to give that money to people that are quite well off. It's one of those things where if people don't need it why should we irrespective of whether they need it or not pay it to them? It just uses money. Why do we give it away to people that don't need it? All it does is it uses money for things that we could use for something else.Hon Member: Something like tax cuts?Hon Member: Lack of imagination.BARBARA KURIGER: Yeah. It's just a complete lack of logic and policy in putting this bill together. Despite the 43 days there's a lot of work to be done on this bill. I wish there was a select committee stage because there's a whole lot of things that are red tape from a red party.Hon Peeni Henare: Sit down and let's move on.BARBARA KURIGER: Peeni you were asking me to stand up before.Mr SPEAKER: Order!BARBARA KURIGER: I've got six seconds to go—three seconds to go—there we go; I'll sit down. Thank you Mr Speaker."