A: IS PATRONIZING AND IS AND IN OTHER CULTURES IS COLONIAL LIKE FOR EXAMPLE ME NOT UNDERSTAN LIKE I LIVED IN A VERY RURAL PLACE IN IN HAITI AND THERE WAS A LOT OF UM SPIRITISM AND BLACK MAGIC

B: MM

A: AND A LOT OF WAYS OF RELATING TO THE WORLD FROM A SENSE THAT BEING A WESTERN PERSON UM WHITE WITH A VERY RATIONAL BACKGROUND AND RATIONAL HISTORY OF MY CULTURE I WOULD QUESTION A LOT UM

B: MM HMM

A: WHAT THEY WERE TELLING ME AND LIKE EVEN QUESTION IT FROM A HUMOROUS SIDE BUT I DON'T KNOW I I THINK LIKE MAYBE MAYBE NOT QUESTIONING SO MUCH AND AND LETTING LIKE BE MORE PART OF IT I MEAN I DID IN SOME WAYS BUT SOMETIMES I THINK I WAS ALSO QUESTIONING A LOT OR LIKE A PART OF ME I STILL DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT THAT MAN IN THE MARKET WAS A ZOMBIE UM BECAUSE

B: MM

A: THEY THEY WERE TELLING ME NOW IN THE MARKET THERE'S A ZOMBIE LIKE BLANK I SAID SHUT UP LIKE YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE BUT IT'S LIKE THIS UM

B: MHM MM

A: AND I DON'T KNOW I MEAN THERE'S OTHER WAYS OF OF EXPERIMENTING THE WORLD THAN LIKE REALLY PUTTING ASIDE FOR THIS WHOLE RATIONALITY IS ACCEPTING THAT IT'S NOT OUR WAY IS NOT THE BEST WAY MAYBE OR THE ONLY WAY KNOW UH

B: EXACTLY EXACTLY YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH THAT'S THAT'S THE INTERESTING PART I THINK LIKE FOR ME IT'S BEEN ALWAYS OBSERVE LIKE WELL NOT ALWAYS BUT BUT LEARNING HOW TO OBSERVE WITHOUT JUDGING BECAUSE UM WHEN YOU START FOR ME WHEN YOU SEE THIS UM CONVERSATION ABOUT ZOMBIES ET CETERA AND WE START SAYING OH I DON'T LIKE THAT IT'S LIKE PUTTING SOME BOUNDARIES IN THE EXPLORATION OF THE WORLD I'D SAY

A: MM HMM

B: LIKE FOR ME IT'S INTERESTING TO NOT HAVE ANY BOUNDARIES AND SEE WHAT YOU ARE RECEIVING THIS COULD BE ALSO DANGEROUS BECAUSE UH THERE ARE ETHICAL THINGS THAT I AM COMPLETELY I COMPLETELY DISAGREE FOR INSTANCE THERE IS A CHANCE THAT I HAVE TO GO TO QA QATAR THIS UM THIS THIS YEAR FOR A CONFERENCE

A: I DIDN'T KNOW THAT

B: AND UH YEAH YEAH BUT THIS IS VERY RECENT ACTUALLY UM BUT THIS WILL BE LATER ON IN THE IN THE YEAR NOT IN IN SEPTEMBER OCTOBER BUT MAYBE

A: MH HMM

B: ON NOVEMBER OR SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW UM BUT BUT THERE I WILL HAVE THIS PROBLEM BECAUSE I'M LIKE I HAVE THIS KIND OF LIBERALISM ABOUT THINKING ABOUT PEOPLE ET CETERA

A: MM HMM

B: BUT THEN SUDDENLY I WILL FIND MYSELF IN A SOCIETY THAT I DISAGREE WITH MANY MANY THINGS

A: MM HMM

B: ABOUT ETHICAL THINGS ABOUT I DON'T KNOW WOMEN'S RIGHTS FOR INSTANCE

A: MM HMM

B: OR RACISM OR OR MANY THINGS THAT I THINK ARE VERY WRONG UM IN THAT COUNTRY AND THEN IT'S LIKE WHAT HOW SHOULD I BEHAVE AND THIS A VERY TRICKY QUESTION ACTUALLY UM

A: YEAH ALTHOUGH LIKE I FEEL LIKE CERTAIN WAYS OF RULING UM A A COUNTRY OR CERTAIN THOUGHTS UM BUILT ON AN OPPRESSIVE UNDERSTANDING

B: MM HMM

A: UM AND I THINK FOR ME THAT OPPRESSION IS PROBLEMATIC EITHER IF IT'S RATIONAL OR IF IT'S UNRATIONAL

B: MM HMM

A: UM IT'S PROBLEMATIC BUT THEN THERE'S LIKE ANOTHER LAYER TO IT WHICH THIS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RATIONALITY AND AND THAT AND WHAT IS NOT AND I DON'T KNOW ENEMIES AND

B: UNRATIONAL

A: OF COURSE TREATIES AND MORE

B: MM

A: YEAH I WOULDN'T LIKE TO I DON'T LIKE TO CALL IT UNRATIONAL BECAUSE THAT'S LIKE IN A WAY ALREADY

B: PATRONIZING

A: YEAH

B: YEAH

A: BUT I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY THE WORDS UM

B: MM HMM I TEND TO THINK THERE IS ONE FUNNY THING THAT YEAH MAYBE MAYBE FOR FOR ME I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT UM RELIGION HAVE SOMETHING INTERESTING IS THAT THEY WILL TELL ABOUT COMMUNITY AND THE GOOD PEOPLE ACTUALLY I HAVE UH ONE FRIEND OF MINE IN EDINBURGH WELL NOW SHE WILL KNOW WHO SHE IS BUT UM SHE'S SHE'S SHE'S MORMON

A: MM HMM

B: AND ONE THING THAT SURPRISED ME A LOT IS THAT SHE IS ONE OF THE BEST PERSON THAT I'VE EVER KNOWN AND I THINK THAT THERE IS THIS PART I I DON'T KNOW I MEAN IT'S VERY HARD TO TELL BUT

A: MM HMM

B: UM I THINK THAT THAT THAT RELIGIONS HAVE A LOT DO WITH THAT ACTUALLY IT AT LEAST CHRISTIANISM UM I KNOW THAT MAYBE IT'S NOT PERFECT BUT UM AT LEAST AT THE BEGINNING OF TIMES UH IT MADE ME THINK THAT THAT BEING RELIGIOUS MAKES YOU CAN MAKE YOU A GOOD PERSON AND THIS COULD BE USEFUL AT THIS BEGINNING OF WHENEVER EVERYTHING LIKE THERE WAS NO ETHICS OR SOMETHING

A: MM HMM

B: AND I THINK THAT THAT THEIR RELIGION HAD UH HAD HAD A GOOD POINT LET'S SAY UM

A: THEN BUT IT WASN'T SO BUT THEN RELIGION IS ALSO AN INSTITUTION AND A GENERATION OF STRUCTURES OF OUR UM I THINK I THINK LIKE IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN RELIGION IS SOMETHING YOU EXPERIENCE WITHIN YOURSELF AND THEN WHEN IT BECOMES THIS STRUCTURE THIS INSTITUTION

B: MM

A: TO RULE

B: THERE IS IT'S IT'S WHEN YOU BELIEVE IT IN YOURSELF IT'S SPIRITUALITY I THINK AND

A: YEAH

B: WHEN IT BECOMES STRUCTURAL IT'S RELIGION

A: MM HMM

B: I THINK

A: ARE YOU RELIGIOUS CAN I ASK THAT QUESTION

B: UH YEAH <LAUGH> YEAH YOU CAN ASK THAT QUESTION I THINK UM WHAT IF I SAY YES YOU IMAGINE NOW YES I AM I AM MUSLIM <LAUGH> NO NO NO NO NO NO NO I I AM NOT RELIGIOUS I SAY I'M SAYING THIS BECAUSE I'M FROM SPAIN SO IT COULD NOT MAKE THAT MUCH SENSE I THINK BUT NO NO NO I I 'M NOT RELIGIOUS BUT I'M VERY INTERESTED IN RELIGION ACTUALLY UM WHERENEVER I CAN I UH I HAVE A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE WHO IS MUSLIM AS WELL AND WE I TALK A LOT ABOUT ABOUT MUSLIMS AND MUS UM HOW IT'S CALLED THE RELIGION UM

A: ISLAM

B: ISLAM I LOVED ISLAM UM AND AND ABOUT CHRISTIANISM AND STUFF I'M VERY INTERESTED ON BECAUSE I'M VERY SPIRITUAL I THINK BUT ZERO RELIGIOUS UM YEAH SO WHAT WHAT ABOUT YOU HA HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTIZED OR SOMETHING I I'M BAP BAPTIZED BY THE WAY

A: YES I BAPTIZED AND I DID MY FIRST COMMUNION UM

B: OH WOW OH WOW

A: YEAH I WENT TO I WENT TO CATECHESIS

B: YOU'RE AT A NICE LEVEL IN THE GAME

A: YEAH YEAH

B: YOU'VE BEEN IN THE GAME

A: I WENT TO CATECHESIS FOR TWO YEARS

B: OH WOW CATECHESIS IS LIKE <DTMF>

A: AND I I SOMETIMES GO TO CHURCH WITH MY GRANDMOTHER I LIKE GO WITH ALONG HER OR UM IN CHRISTMAS <OVERLAP>

B: OH THAT'S THAT'S SWEET

A: IF MY IF MY MOTHER WANTS TO GO TO CHURCH I MIGHT GO TO HER I ACTUALLY LIKE I DON'T COMPLETELY DISLIKE UM GOING TO CHURCH UM

B: UH HUH OKAY

A: THERE IS A THERE IS A CERTAIN LIKE NOT AS IN AS IN THE ALREADY <DTMF> BUT THERE'S SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ON NICE FOR ME OF BEING IN A CHURCH I LIKE THE CALMNESS THAT THERE IS INSIDE

B: MM HMM MM HMM

A: UM AND I LIKE THE VOICE OF THE PRIEST LIKE WHEN IT'S LIKE IT DEPENDS LIKE THERE'S A PRIEST THAT IS LIKE SERMONIZING AND TELLING YOU BUT THEN THERE'S LIKE THIS PRIEST THAT HAS A UH LIKE A TONE OF VOICE THAT IS A BIT TRANSCENDENTAL AND THERE'S SOMETHING I I DON'T COMPLETELY DISLIKE ABOUT THE CHURCH I ACTUALLY LIKE A LOT E ENTERING CHURCH I REMEMBER I HAD LIKE A BIG FIGHT ABOUT THIS UM WHEN I WAS SIXTEEN WITH MY FRIENDS UM IN HIGH SCHOOL THEY TOOK US TO SALAMANCA

B: UH HUH

A: AND I REALLY WANTED TO GO SEE THE CHURCHES AND MY FRIENDS OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T WANT BECAUSE <DTMF> IN YOURSELF AND AND THE KIDS ARE REALLY LIKE AGAINST RELIGION SOMETIMES

B: UH HUH UH HUH

A: I WOULD STRUGGLE BECAUSE I I WOULDN'T CONSIDER MYSELF RELIGIOUS BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING YEAH I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S BECAUSE I HAD AN UPBRINGING MORE NEAR CHURCH THAT I HAVE A DIFFERENT RELATION TO THAT SPACE UM YEAH I REMEMBER HAVING A BIG FIGHT WITH WITH THIS FRIEND BECAUSE I WANTED TO GO AND SHE WAS SAYING LIKE PRIESTS RAPE CHILDREN <LAUGH>

B: OH NO

A: AND I WAS LIKE BUT IT WAS LIKE UH BUT YOU CANNOT REALLY USE RELIGION TO THAT UM BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ARTICULATE IT VERY WELL AT THAT TIME IT WAS MORE OF AN INTUITION OF WHY I DID LIKE CHURCH AS A SPACE I ALSO LIKE I'M REALLY AMAZED ARCHITECTONICALLY WITH CHURCHES GENERALLY

B: YEAH YEAH THEY ARE IMPRESSIVE YEAH ACTUALLY THE THE BOOK THAT I HAVE FROM RAFAEL MONEO

A: MM HMM

B: IT'S ABOUT A CHURCH UM THAT WAS DESIGNED BY LE CORBUSIER

A: OH REALLY LE CORBUSIER INTERESTING

B: YEAH YEAH YEAH IT'S CALLED <DTMF> WELL I WILL I WILL I WILL SEND IT UM LATER ON BUT YEAH THERE IS I AM I AM AMAZED AT THAT THERE IS ONE ARTIST CALLED TIM HECKER

A: MM HMM