dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, I just want to state again, quite shortly; you went and came back with Lord Halifax's letter. I want to make this quite clear, Mr. Dahlerus: Throughout Lord Halifax made it clear that Great Britain was going to stand by her obligations to Poland, did he not?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then on the 27th of August, the night of the 26th to 27th, at 12:30 midnight, you had this interview with Hitler. Now, to you, Mr. Dahlerus, Hitler for the first time made it clear that his terms were, that Great Britain should help Germany in securing Danzig and the Corridor.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Not "rights in the Corridor," but "the Corridor." Do you remember that when you told that to Mr. Chamberlain he was surprised at the difference between your account and that given to Sir Nevile Henderson?
DAHLERUS: That is correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I am not going to go through it all again, but I just want you to help me from your own book, which you say was carefully and objectively written, as to the state of mind of the rulers of Germany at that time. Now, would you first of all look, with regard to Hitler, on Page 47? That is the passage you have already told the Tribunal about, where he was shouting, "Dann werde ich U-Boote bauen."
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, just let me put it to you -- it is quite short -- how you described it at the time, and you tell me if it is right, "If there should be a war," he said, "Dann werde ich U-Boote bauen, U-Boote, U-Boote!" and he raised his voice each time?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you go on to say: Now, would you mind turning on to Page 53? No, just one sentence before the bit I read on Page 47, I just want to get that clear. You say: "His words became blurred and his behavior was that of a completely abnormal person." Now, you turn to Page 53. I want you to tell the Tribunal your impression of the way he treated the Defendant Goering. The Tribunal has heard a lot about the relations between them. At the bottom of the page you say this: Would you just turn over to Page 54, the fifth line from the end? That was your considered view, was it not, Mr. Dahlerus?
DAHLERUS: It was the opinion I formed the first time I met him.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was the Chancellor of Germany. Now I want you, for a moment, to deal with the Foreign Minister of Germany, according to the impressions that you formed. Generally, I think you got the impression that Von Ribbentrop was doing everything he could to interrupt and spoil your endeavors?
DAHLERUS: That is correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But according to Goering, he went further than that. Will you look at Page 76? This is, you remember, when you were just saying goodbye to Goering, on, I think, your last visit to London, after he had drawn the map, which I will come to in a moment. Did you say this: That was said seriously and solemnly, Mr. Dahlerus?
DAHLERUS: Exactly.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you go on:
DAHLERUS: Well, he had mentionect Ribbentrop's name just a minute before, and when he spoke about the plane crashing, he used the word "he." I assumed he meant Ribbentrop.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was the Foreign Minister, according to Goering. I want you now to turn to Page 100, because I want to collect these things. This is a description of the 1st of September, the afternoon of the day on which Poland had been attacked, and you saw the Defendant Goering, I think, in the Air Ministry or at one of his offices. Do you see it? It is just before the second break. Are these your words?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that is the impression? Of course you mean that they were mentally intoxicated with the idea of war?
DAHLERUS: They had changed their frame of mind within a short time.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that, of the three principal people in Germany, the Chancellor was abnormal; the Reich Marshal, or the Field Marshal, as he was then, was in a crazy state of intoxication; and, according to the Defendant Goering, the Foreign Minister was a would-be murderer who wanted to sabotage your plane? [The witness nodded assent.]
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just let us proceed, quite shortly, with what happened after that. On the week end of 26 and 27 August you went to England. You have told me that you did not know about the calling off of the attack on the morning of the 26th, and you did not know that the intention of Hitler was to eliminate English intervention. You did not know these points; so you went back to England on the 27th with these fuller terms, and the English answer was that, while they maintained their obligations, they hoped and recommended that the German and Polish Governments might begin negotiations between themselves with regard to the point?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And that was the answer that you brought back. Now, I just want you to think for a moment of the interview that you had at breakfast time with Goering, I think in his train or in his headquarters, on the 28th of August. You find it at Page 65 of the book, if you want to refresh your memory. At that time, did Goering not try and convince you that the return of Danzig and the Corridor would make no difference to Poland's military situation?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Because, illustrating it from his own war maps, he thought that Germany was in a position to defeat the Poles anyhow, whether they had the Corridor or whether they hadn't?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And his Air Forces and the troops were all in position to carry that out?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-YYFE: Now, I want you now to come to the question of the meeting at which the terms were given to Sir Nevile Henderson. That was at 7:15 in the evening, on the 29th of August, and the meeting went on for some time. Do you remember that meeting?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then, as I think one of the counsel has elicited from you, the difficulty arose over the demand for a plenipotentiary to be back in 24 hours, as you have explained
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I think Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes told you that that meeting had gone very badly, and then at 11:30 you saw Goering, and Goering said much the same as Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes as to how the meeting had gone.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And he said, that what had upset the Chancellor was that Sir Nevile Henderson had characterized or implied that this demand that the plenipotentiary should come within 24 hours was equivalent to an ultimatum.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember at that time that Goering underlined certain of the terms? Will you turn to the preface of your book...
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELIFYFE: You see the facsimile. Have you a copy?
DAHLERUS: I have the original here.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, if you will just look at it. Now, it is in German. If you follow the German, I want just to read the bits which Goering has underlined, and I will read it in English and you check to see that I have got the right piece: That is the bit which the Defendant Goering has underlined, just before the bit about the sending of the plenipotentiary.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that there was no doubt that the Defendant Goering was associating himself with the importance of that point.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you remember that at that time, during that interview, that is, the night of the 29th, the Defendant Goering made a great tirade against the Poles.
DAHLERUS: That is right.
SIR DAVID MAXWTELL-FYFE: I am not going to go into that in detail; but then he said to you that the Fuehrer was preparing what I think in English is a "magnanimous offer."
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELIYYFE: And to show you the nature of the "magnanimous offer," he hedged in a portion of the bits of Poland. That is also in the preface to your book.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, there are two points about what he hedged in. In fact, it was much more than had been taken from Germany under the Treaty of Versailles . Secondly, it was entirely different from what was cabled over by the Defendant Von Ribbentrop to Sir Nevile Henderson the next night.
DAHLERUS: That is correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, Mr. Dahlerus, I do not think I can put it better than in your own words, if you will turn to Page 75. Is this how you record it in your book, the second break: That is rather less than 24 hours later.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then you go on to describe what it showed. Well, it showed this quite clearly, that 24 hours before that was cabled over to Sir Nevile Henderson the German Government had never seriously considered what portion of the Corridor it was going to claim and what portion it was not going to claim. Is that so? Goering was putting an entirely different thing to you the night before, was he not?
DAHLERUS: The first proposal I brought with me on Sunday morning, the 27th. Yes, there it was only the small Corridor, and they extended the claims according to this last plan.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: They extended the claim, so that the effect of what was put to you, what you were sent to announce -- that a "magnanimous offer" was coming -- was actually an extension of claims, and, equally actually, quite different from what was suggested the next night by the Defendant Ribbentrop.
DAHLERUS: That is correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I just want to ask you one word about an interview which took place on the 31st of August. You will find it at Page 87. It is the interview at which Sir George Ogilvie-Forbes gave you an account of what M. Lipski had said. I want you just to tell me this: You did meet M. Lipski, did you not?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, of course -- obviously, the same could be said of everyone, I am sure of yourself also -- M. Lipski was suffering from considerable strain in that most critical time?
DAHLERUS: He was very nervous.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Very nervous. And did not Sir George Forbes tell you that M. Lipski made his opinion quite clear that the German offer was a breach of Polish sovereignty; and that, in his view, Poland and France and England must stand firm and show a united front; and that Poland, if left alone, would fight and die alone? That was M. Lipski's mood, was it not, at the time?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And with regard to the other matter, I am not going into the details, but there is a considerable and significant difference between the Polish version of the telegram of instructions to M. Lipski and the version which the Defendant Goering showed to you?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, on the morning of the 1st of September I think you saw Goering at 8 o'clock. Would it be a correct description of the way in which he broke the fact that he had attacked Poland to say that it was very gradual or slow, with Goering almost walking backwards, when he broke the news to you that the attack had taken place?
DAHLERUS: Well, so much so that I immediately phoned London and got in contact with the Foreign Office and informed somebody that, according to the information I had received, the Poles had been attacked, and they naturally wondered what was happening to me when I gave that information.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, but he did eventually admit that they had attacked Poland.. and then you had a further interview with Hitler. There is just one point I want you to clarify. I do not think you told the Tribunal about the time when he said he would fight for 10 years. Look at Page 98.
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You see there, after saying: "'Will ich zehn Jahre kampfen,' he brandished his fist and bent down so that it nearly touched the floor."
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SER DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So I take it, he was in the same state as at the time of your previous interview.
DAHLERUS: Well, if possible, more nervous.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, there is just one final matter, if you would look at Page 102, and then I shall leave your book. You remember you saw the Defendant Goering on the morning of Saturday, 2d September?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you say this: The next sentence is: I do not want to put it unfairly, and therefore I ask you, Mr. Dahlerus, does the "he" in that sentence refer to Goering Dr to Mussolini?
DAHLERUS: I think it refers to Mussolini.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You think it refers to Mussolini. That is what I suspected, and therefore I will not trouble you further about it, except to ask you this: I have taken you briefly -- I hope you will agree, fairly -- through the points on this matter, and on these facts that I have put to you, and with which you will agree, are they the basis of your opinion that the airn of the German Government, including Goering, was to split Poland and Great Britain and to occupy Poland with the consent of Great Britain?
DAHLERUS: Well, if I had known the facts that I heard later...
DR. STAHMER: I believe that this question goes too far. Therefore, I have to object to this question. It refers in general to the government and to a definite number of persons. Besides, it is an expression of opinion and not a fact about which the witness is to testify.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The question was: Are these facts the basis of your opinion?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it is a perfectly proper question and arises directly out of the examination in chief.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Mr. Dahlerus, you were answering. I had asked you are these facts ...
DR. SAUTER: But then I should like to ask, Mr. President, that it be clarified what is to be understood under the term "German Government," of which the prosecutor speaks constantly. The German Government consists of quite a number of ministers, and if one speaks here continuously of the German Government, without saying who is meant individually, the impression is created, that each and every one of the ministers was responsible and had participated in these negotiations, although, in fact, he knew nothing about it. I am representing one of these ministers who knew nothing about these negotiations, and therefore it would be of interest to me if the prosecutor would be kind enough to clarify who actually is meant by the term "German Government." That is to say, whether the Minister of Economics, Funk, for instance, is also included, or whether it refers only to two or three other gentlemen.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I do not suppose ...
THE PRESIDENT: We do not agree at all with what Dr. Sauter has said. We have already heard the Defendant Goering at considerable length about what the government consisted of, and it will be upon the defendants' counsel, when the time comes to argue the case, to argue that the government did not include the members whom they represent. Defendants' counsel do not seem to understand that, what they call clarification is a matter which ran be done in re-examination. Dr. Stahmer will have the opportunity of re-examining, and then can ask any questions that arise out of the cross-examination.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will put it, Mr. Dahlerus, in this way: Are these facts which you have heard and agreed with this afternoon, are they the basis of the view which you expressed in answer to Dr. Stahmer's question this morning?
DAHLERUS: Yes. At the time I thought I could contribute something to preventing a new war; I could definitely prove that nothing was left undone by the British, by His Majesty's Government to prevent war. But had I known what I know today, I would have realized that my efforts could not possibly succeed.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, there is one other point. I ask Your Lordship's indulgence. Dr. Stahmer asked for the names of these English industrialists. My Lord, I am very anxious, as representative of the British Government, that there should be no concealment about this matter at all, and I should, therefore, ask, with all humility, that Your Lordship would allow me to ask Mr. Dahlerus to give the names, simply for that reason.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, if you wish to.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Mr. Dahlerus, will you tell us the names of the gentlemen that you met on your wife's estate in Schleswig-Holstein?
DAHLERUS: Shall I read them or hand them in?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Read them if you will.
DAHLERUS: The Honorable Charles McLarn, S. W. Rossen, A. Holden, Sir Robert Renig, Bryon S. Mountain, C. F. Spencer, T. Menceford.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? Dr. Stahmer, do you not wish to re-examine?
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I should like to put a question. May I ask, without being misunderstood, why these names could not be read this morning when Dr. Stahmer asked for them?
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you ask that question? What has it to do with the case of Von Ribbentrop?
DR. HORN: The witness Dahlerus was also approved for the Defendant Von Ribbentrop, and I had reached an agreement with Dr. Stahmer as to certain questions. I, too, was interested in these questions this morning and also in the question about the people who had been there.
THE PRESIDENT: The reason why the names were not given this morning was because we wished to get on with this Trial, and we thought that the names of these gentlemen were irrelevant. But as Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe asked that they might be introduced in order that there could be no suggestion of concealment, the Tribunal has allowed them to be given.
DR. HORN: Thank you.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. Dahlerus, you said this morning that on 23 August you were called up by Goering in Stockholm and that he told you that the situation had become serious, and that, therefore, he was absolutely obliged to talk to you. Did he tell you for what reasons he considered the situation at that moment serious?
DAHLERUS: No.
DR. STAHMER: And you did not ask him about it?
DAHLERUS: No.
DR. STAHMER: You came then to Berlin on the 24th and conferred at once with Goering. Did Goering tell you on this occasion what had made the situation more serious in the meantime?
DAHLERUS: Not clearly.
DR. STAHMER: What did he tell you about the danger? In what did the seriousness of the situation consist?
DAHLERUS: He indicated that the fact that the Polish question was not yet solved, and that there was no indication that it would be solved, made the situation serious. He also said that it depended entirely on the British attitude and initiative whether a solution could be found.
DR. STAHMER: From this answer then you learned that Poland was the point of danger?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: You did transmit proposals then on 27, August which had as their main object the solution of the Polish question?
DAHLERUS: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: In reply to my question with reference to the events of 26 September, you said this morning, according to my notes, that you were of the opinion at that time that Hitler's plans were not quite clear. Then this afternoon you spoke of Goering. How do you account for that difference in your answer?
DAHLERUS: At the time I had to assume that the leading members of the German Government worked in close collaboration.
DR. STAHMER: Then you concluded that from this fact? You also said before, if you had known what you know today, you would not have intervened. What has brought about your change of opinion?
DAHLERUS: The facts disclosed, chiefly during the proceedings in this court, and as published.
DR. STAHMER: Which facts are these?
DAHLERUS: The incidents I quoted, the declaration of 11 April, 23 May, and 22 August.
DR. STAHMER: You have no further facts, have you?
DAHLERUS: Yes, but those are the main points.
DR. STAHMER: What are the minor points? What are your other misgivings?
DAHLERUS: One is the experience on 26 September 1939, th speech by Hitler on 6 October 1939, and a number of declaration made since.
DR. STAHMER: You mentioned before a plane crash, if I understood you correctly, which was to have been brought about by Ribbentrop. Were you really serious about that?
DAHLERUS: Well, I corrected my statement to say that I assumed that it was Ribbentrop, because his name had just been mentioned about a minute before.
DR. STAHMER: I have one more question for the witness. What about the map of Poland which had just been shown and whIch allegedly was drawn by Goering?
DAHLERUS: I have the original of that map in my possession.
DR. STAHMER: And what was the explanation given to you?
DAHLERUS: That it was a territory that held a majority of Germans, and not Poles.
DR. STAHMER: How do you explain, then, the difference between the later offer and that map?
DAHLERUS: I can only assume that the question had not been thoroughly discussed and various proposals had been made before the definite proposal was submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire; and the Tribunal will adjourn. [The witness left the stand.] [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, you will continue your cross-examination, will you not?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have assumed, Your Honor, that, since Goering's testimony was suspended in order to hear Dahlerus, on the ground that it might change some of his examination, Dr. Stahmer would complete any direct examination he may have on this subject with the Witness Dahlerus before I finish my cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon, yes. Dr. Stahmer, will you ask any questions of the Defendant Goering that you wish to ask, arising out of the evidence of the Witness Dahlerus.
DR. STAHMER: I can ask him these questions only after I have spoken with him. I therefore consider it appropriate for Mr. Justice Jackson to continue his cross-examination, and after the cross-examination I can deal with these questions as well.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal considers that you ought to be prepared to go on now.. It is you who asked for the evidence of Dahlerus to be interposed, and Dahlerus was your witness, not the Prosecution's witness, and therefore presumably you knew what Dahlerus was going to say.
DR. STAHMER: Then I ask for the opportunity to discuss the matter with the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has just been adjourned for 10 minutes.
DR. STAHMER: I was not able to finish the matter in that short period of time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is of the opinion that you must ask these questions now and go on with the examination. If you wish to examine the Defendant Goering on these matters you must do it now.
DR. STAHMER: Very well. [The Defendant Goering resumed the stand.]