dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: All right, that is all I wanted to find out. I don't care where it originated. It is the kind of song you had in your songbook for young people.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say one more thing. The songbook which I have here was published in 1933.
MR. DODD: Yes?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that the youth organization which I built up can be judged from the year 1933 only.
MR. DODD: I don't suggest that either, but we found it in 1945.
VON SCHIRACH: Later we published other songbooks, with very different songs.
MR. DODD: Yes, I am going to get around to these in a minute. That songbook was 3764-PS, USA-854. It has just been called to my attention that the last phrase in that fourth stanza says: "Germany awake! Death to Jewry! People to arms!"
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, please; where is that?
MR. DODD: In the English text, in the fourth stanza. I don't know where it would be; it is on Page 19, I am told, of the German text. Did you find it?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, maybe it is the wrong document. In any event, we will find it for you. However, you remember the song, do you not? You don't deny that it says "Death to the Jews," and so on, do you, in that song?
VON SCHIRACH: That is the song that starts with the words, "Can you see the dawn in the East?"
MR. DODD: That is right.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: That is all I wanted to know.
VON SCHIRACH: That song is not in this book. [A book was handed to the defendant.]
MR. DODD: We have quite a few of your songbooks here.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but there is a great difference between them. This book, which does not contain the song, is an official edition published by the Reich Youth Leadership. As I say, it does not contain the song. It does appear, however, in a songbook published by Tonners, a firm of music publishers in Cologne, under the title of "Songs of the Hitler Youth." This book is not, however, an official collection issued by the Reich Youth Leadership. Any publishing firm in Germany can publish such books.
MR. DODD: All right, I will accept that, but certainly you won't deny that the book was used, will you? And that is all we are trying to establish.
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know. I do not know whether that book was used by the Hitler Youth.
MR. DODD: Do you know that the one which it is contained in was published by you? [There was no response.] Well, in any event, I would like to point this out to you. I am not claiming, or trying to suggest to you by questions, that any one of these songs in themselves made young people-in Germany fit for war; but rather, what I am trying to show is that, as distinguished from the testimony you gave here yesterday, you were doing something more than just giving these boys and girls games to play.
VON SCHIRACH: My statements of yesterday certainly did not imply that we only gave them games to play. For every song of this kind there are innumerable others.
MR. DODD: Yes, I know, but these are the ones we are concerned with right now. "Unfurl the Blood-Soaked Banners," you remember that? "Drums Sound Throughout the Land"?
VON SCHIRACH: These are all songs of the "Wandervogel" and the Youth League. They are songs which were sung at the time of the Republic, songs which did not have Birthing to do with our time.
MR. DODD: Just a minute.
VON SCHIRACH: They are songs which had nothing to do with our period.
MR. DODD: Do you think that anybody, in the days of the Republic, was singing Hitler Youth marches?
VON SCHIRACH: What song is that? I do not know it.
MR. DODD: That is the one, "Drums Sound Throughout the Land." Don't you remember any of these songs, actually?
VON SCHIRACH: Of course, I know quite a number of these songs; but the most important-the bulk of them-come from the old "Zupfgeigenhansl" of the Wandervogel movement and from the Youth League. That the SA also sang these songs goes without saying.
MR. DODD: Yes, I don't doubt that they did; but wherever they emanated from, you were using them with these young people. And that one, "Drums Sound Throughout the Land," you wrote yourself; isn't that so?
VON SCHIRACH: "Drums Sound Throughout the Land?" Yes, I believe I did write some such song.
MR. DODD: All right; that certainly doesn't have a very ancient origin then, does it?
VON SCHIRACH: It was long before the seizure of power.
MR. DODD: Now, you also recall, perhaps, that on one occasion Field Marshal Von Blomberg wrote an article for the Hitler Year Book. Do you remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, it wasn't so very long ago. It was in 1938. I suppose you read the Year Book of your organization for that year at that time, anyway?
VON SCHIRACH: That may be taken for granted; but I really cannot remember what Field Marshal Von Blomberg wrote for it.
MR. DODD: Well, all right. I would like you to look at this document; it is 3755-PS. I think it is on Page 134 of the text that you have, Mr. Witness; and on Pages 148 to 150 you will find an article, "Education for War of German Youth," or rather, it says, "The work 'Education for War of German Youth,' by Dr. Stellrecht, contains a slogan of Field Marshal Von Blomberg, in which the following passage is quoted." And then it goes on to give the quotation. Do you find that? "The fighting spirit is the highest virtue of the soldier." And so on. Have you found the quotation of Blomberg's? That is what I want to know.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And then the article by Stellrecht is also contained there, after the quotation.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now certainly, when you move down a few lines, you will see this sentence: "Therefore, it is a stern and unalterable demand which Field Marshal Von Blomberg makes of the young men marching in the columns of the Hitler Youth," and so on. In those days, in 1938, Mr. Witness, you were at least thinking in terms of future military service and so was Field Marshal Von Blomberg, with respect to the Hitler Youth. That is the point I am trying to make.
VON SCHIRACH: We had a State with compulsory military training.
MR. DODD: I know.
VON SCHIRACH: And it goes without saying that we as educators were also anxious to train our youth to the highest degree of physical fitness so that they would also make good soldiers.
MR. DODD: You weren't doing any more than that? Is that what you want this Court to understand?
VON SCHIRACH: I described to you yesterday what else we did in the way of rifle training, cross-country sports, and the training of special units.
MR. DODD: That is USA-856, Mr. President. Yes, I know you told us yesterday that, whatever else it might have been, it certainly was not any kind of military training. This man Stellrecht was associated with you, was he not?
VON SCHIRACH: Dr. Stellrecht had the "Office for Physical Training" in the Hitler Youth under Reich Sport Leader Von Tschammer-Osten. That office was one of 21 offices within the Youth Leadership.
MR. DODD: He was associated with you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And you have also used something from him as part of your defense; it is in your document book. Do you know about that?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, it is a statement made by Dr. Stellrecht, in which he speaks of education for defense and physical training for youth; and says that not a single boy in Germany is trained with weapons of war.
MR. DODD: I know that, and therefore I want you to look at another statement that he made on another date. That is Document 1992-PS, Mr. President, and we offer it as USA-439. Do you remember when he made the speech to the military men in January of 1937, while he was affiliated with your Hitler Youth organization? Do you know the speech to which I refer?
VON SCHIRACH: I was not present on the occasion of that speech and I do not consider myself responsible for any statement which he may have made in it.
MR. DODD: Well, that is your statement, but perhaps others feel differently. At any event, I ask you whether or not you were aware of and knew about the speech, and will you tell us whether you do know about it before you look at it? You know the speech I am talking about, don't you?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember being informed of the fact that he spoke at a national and political training course for the Armed Forces; but I may have been informed of it. The speech, itself . . .
MR. DODD: Well, it seems to me you were very anxious to deny responsibility for it before you knew what he said.
VON SCHIRACH: I did not want to make a statement on that. Disputes arose between Dr. Stellrecht and myself on account of a certain tendency which he showed with regard to defense training, because I felt that he insisted too much on his office. Disputes arose also with the other offices of the Reich Youth Leadership which finally led to his dismissal from the Reich Youth Leadership.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, he was on your staff when he made this speech and I wish now you would look at page-well, I have it Page 3 of the English, and it is Page 169 of the text that you have; and it begins at the very bottom of the English page. The paragraph reads: "As far as purely military education is concerned this work has already been done in years of co-operation, and very extensively. The result has been set down in a book written by myself, regulating future work in military education down to the last detail of training and which, with our mutual agreement, included a foreword and preface by the Reich Defense Minister and the Reich Youth Leader." And then the next paragraph: "The basic idea of this work is always to present to the boy that which belongs to the particular stage of his development"-and so on. And I want you to come to the sentence that says: "For that reason no boy is given a military weapon, simply because it seems to serve no useful purpose for his development. But, on the other hand, it seems sensible to give him guns of small caliber for training. Just as there are certain tasks occurring in military training which are only suitable for grown men, so there are other training tasks more suited to boys." And then moving down further in the English text, next to the last paragraph, Page 170 of your text, you will find in the next to the last paragraph that Dr. Stellrecht says: "This picture is the goal of a comprehensive education which starts with the training of the boy in outdoor games and ends with his military training." And then moving on again to the fifth page of the English text, and I think it is Page 171 of your text, the next to the last paragraph, in talking about the hiking trip, he says that: ". . . has still a wider purpose . . . because it is the only way in which the boy can get acquainted with the fatherland for which he will have to fight one day." Moving on through this article, finally, I want to direct your attention to Page 6 of the English text and Pages 174 and 175 of your text.
MR. DODD: In the last paragraph of the English text, you will find this sentence which says: "All training, therefore, culminates in rifle training. It can scarcely be emphasized enough; and because shooting is a matter of practice, one cannot start too early. The result we want to achieve in the course of time is that a gun should feel just as natural in the hands of a German boy as a pen." Now, move over to the next page, Page 7 of the English text and Page 176 of your text. Your Dr. Stellrecht says there more about shooting and how it "meets with the boys' desire"; and then he goes on to say: "Along with the general training there is special training for new replacements for Air Force, Navy, and motorized troops. The training course for this has been established in conjunction with the competent offices of the Armed Forces... on as broad a basis as possible, and in the country cavalry training is given." And I suppose it is on the next page of your text, but it is the next to the last paragraph of the English text-I want to call your attention to this sentence-or it is two from the last paragraph in the English text: "Military education and ideological education belong together." The English text says "philosophical," but I think that's a mistranslation and actually in German it is "ideological." And you see the sentence that says in the next paragraph: `'The education of youth has to take care that the knowledge and the principles, according to which the State and the Armed Forces of our time have been organized and on which they base, enter so thoroughly into the thoughts of the individual that they can never again be taken away and that they remain guiding principles all through life." And the last paragraph of that speech, Mr. Witness-I wish you would look at it because I think you used the term "playful" yesterday, if I am not mistaken, and Dr. Stellrecht, anyway, a little earlier in his speech.
MR. DODD: Here is what he said to the military men that day: "Gentlemen, you can see that the tasks of present youth education have gone far beyond the 'playful."' Are you sure, now, that you didn't have any kind of a program for military training in your youth organization?
VON SCHIRACH: I can see from this document, which I should really have to read in its entirety in order to be able to answer correctly, that Dr. Stellrecht, to put it mildly, considered himself very important. The importance of Dr. Stellrecht for the education of youth and the importance of the office which he held in the Youth Leadership were definitely not as great as implied by this training-course for men of the Armed Forces. I have already said before that disputes arose between Dr. Stellrecht and myself on account of his exaggerations and especially because of the extent to which he overestimated the value of rifle training and what he called "military training" and that these differences of opinion finally led to his dismissal and departure from the service of the Reich Youth Leadership. He was one of many heads of offices, and the importance of his special activity was not as great as he has represented it to be in his statement here. I think I explained yesterday what a large number of tasks confronted the Youth Leadership. I was also able to indicate the approximate proportion of premilitary training or military training, as Herr Stellrecht calls it, as compared with other forms of training. But this document also states clearly that there was no intention of anticipating military training, as I said yesterday. When he says that every German boy should learn to handle the gun as easily as the pen, that is an expression of opinion with which I cannot identify myself.
MR. DODD: Well, of course, you have your view of him; but I think it is well that we brought it out in view of the fact that you have yourself offered before this Tribunal a statement by Stellrecht in your own document book. You are aware of that, of course, aren't you? You want, of course, to have us understand that Stellrecht is reliable when you quote him, but he is not reliable when we quote him; is that it?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not mean that at all. He is a specialist in ballistics and outdoor sports and, of course, he represented his tasks, as is natural to human nature, as being the most important in youth training. Probably another office chief would have described cultural work or occupational competition contests, as the case might be, as being the most important aspects of youth training. At any rate, the decisive pronouncement for the education of German youth was not the remarks which Stellrecht made during a course for soldiers but my own remarks to the youth leaders.
MR. DODD: I just want to remind you that a year after he made this speech you wrote a preface for his book, didn't you?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe this preface was written for the book "Hitler Youth on Service."
MR. DODD: I say it was a year after he wrote this speech, which was put out and published in Germany. He not only made the speech; but it was put out in pamphlet form, wasn't it?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember exactly.
MR. DODD: Well, I can tell you if you look at the document that I handed you. I think you will see that. Well, in any event, we will pass along. You told the Tribunal yesterday that the statement in the Voelkischer Beobachter , attributed to Hitler, on 21 February 1938 was something of a mystery to you; you did not know where he got his figures from. Did you understand what I said, Mr. Witness?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And do you know to what I referred in your testimony of yesterday, that quotation from Hitler in the Voelkischer Beobachter ?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: What is wrong with those figures?
VON SCHIRACH: I think that these figures are exaggerated and I think that there are errors in the text in my possession, which is a translated text. He probably received these figures from Dr. Stellrecht's office, or so I assume. The statements regarding armored troops were, I imagine, probably added by himself; for the conclusion that some thousands or tens of thousands qualified for driving licenses is really an incorrect one, just as it is incorrect to draw from the fact that some tens of thousands of lads qualify for driving licenses the conclusion that they were trained as tank troops.
MR. DODD: Well, you see, we didn't say so. You understand it was your Fuehrer who said so in February 1938, and what I asked you was that I wish perhaps we can go through it and you can tell the Tribunal where they are in error and to what extent. Now Hitler said, according to the press, that your naval Hitler Youth comprised 45,000 boys. Would you say that figure was too large and altogether untrue?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is correct.
MR. DODD: That is correct?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: He then said, the motor Hitler Youth 60,000 boys. What do you say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: And then he said that, as part of the campaign to encourage aviation, 55,000 members of the Jungvolk were trained in gliding for group activities. What do you say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: Glider training and model plane construction in the youth organization with-may I have the figure again- 50,000 youth airmen?
MR. DODD: 55,000.
VON SCHIRACH: 55,000-yes, that is correct.
MR. DODD: That's correct. Then he says, "74,000 of the Hitler Youth are organized in its flying units." Now, what do you say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: You say "flying units"; those are "Fliegereinheiten," groups of Hitler youth airmen, who-as I must emphasize again-were concerned only with gliding and the construction of model planes. There may have been such a large number at the time.
MR. DODD: Is the figure correct, 74,000?
VON SCHIRACH: It may be.
MR. DODD: Well, he lastly says, "15,000 boys passed their gliding test in the year 1937 alone." What do you say about that; is it too big or too little or not true at all?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is probably correct.
MR. DODD: Well, now, so far you haven't disagreed with Hitler on any of these, have you?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Then, he lastly says, "Today, 1.2 million boys of the Hitler Youth receive regular instruction in small-bore rifle shooting from 7,000 instructors." What's wrong with that figure, if anything?
VON SCHIRACH: It may be correct-of course, I have no documentary proof that we had 7,000 young men who conducted training in small-bore rifle shooting. I discussed this small-bore rifle shooting yesterday. It is well known that we carried that out.
MR. DODD: Actually you haven't disputed any of these figures. They are true, then, to the best of your knowledge, aren't they?
VON SCHIRACH: My objection concerned a remark, which I remember in connection with the speech, mentioning tank force.
MR. DODD: Well, we don't have it but, if you have it, we'd be glad to see it. But this is the Voelkischer Beobachter speech that was put in by the Prosecution at the time that the case against you was put in; there is nothing in that about the tanks.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe the reason is that the retranslation of the document from English back into German is incorrect.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, we agree that Hitler wasn't very far off on his figures when he made this speech or gave them out?
VON SCHIRACH: No; I think the figures which you have just mentioned are correct.
MR. DODD: All right. Now, then, in the Year Book of your Hitler Youth for 1939, Stellrecht, your man who had charge of training, uses that same expression. Do you recall that? "To handle a rifle should be just as natural for everybody as to handle a pen"?
VON SCHIRACH: 1939?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
VON SCHIRACH: May I have the month?
MR. DODD: Well, it's in the Year Book of the Hitler Youth for the year 1939, at Page 227. If you'd like to see it, I'll be glad to show it to you.
VON SCHIRACH: No, thank you. I do not have to see it. If he has already mentioned it before, it is possible that he will repeat it.
MR. DODD: Yes. You see, the importance of it to us is that this is 2 years after he made this speech, 1 year after you wrote the preface to his book, and I assume some time after you found him to be-what did you say-unreliable?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I did not say that. On the contrary, he was a reliable man, but differences of opinion arose between us because I did not agree with him on the question of overemphasizing premilitary training.
MR. DODD: Well...
VON SCHIRACH: I considered the rifle training as constituting only a part of our training, and not the most essential part; and he pushed it too much into the foreground.
MR. DODD: All right. But you let him write in the Year Book; and 2 years after he made the speech, he made this same kind of a statement for young people to read, that they should be as handy with a rifle as they were with a pen. Did you make any objection when that book went to press? I assume you must have . . .
VON SCHIRACH: I did not see the book before it went to press . . .
MR. DODD: You did not proofread it?
VON SCHIRACH: . . . and I had no objections to raise in particular.
MR. DODD: Did you object when you read in the same book and on the same page that the Wehrmacht had presented to your Hitler Youth in 1937, 10,000 small-bore rifles?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I was very glad to have that gift from the Armed Forces. As we in any case did small-bore shooting, I was grateful for every rifle we received because we always had less than we needed for training purposes.
MR. DODD: And were you distressed when you also read in that same Year Book that there was no shortage of shooting ranges: "Since organized rifle training was started in the autumn of 1936, 10,000 shooting instructors have acquired the green shooting license in weekend courses and special courses; and this figure increases by some thousands every year." Do you remember that in your Year Book for 1939?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember it, but I think you are probably presenting the facts correctly; I will not dispute it. Switzerland gave her young men a much more intensive rifle training than we did and so did many other countries.
MR. DODD: Yes, I know.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not deny that our young men were trained in shooting.
MR. DODD: I hope you're not comparing yourself to Switzerland, either.
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: This document is 3769-PS, Mr. President; it becomes USA-857. Now, we've heard about this agreement that you and the Defendant Keitel drew up in 1939, not very long before The war against Poland started. It was in August of 1939. It's already in evidence, Mr. President, as USA-677. It was the 8th day of August, wasn't it-or 11th day; I'm sorry.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know the exact date. The fact that the agreement was concluded in August 1939 is enough to show that it did not have-and could not have had-any connection with the war.