dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We have not even had a chance to get it into English. I do not know what it says except that it is the minutes of their meeting. We have a photostat. [Turning to the witness.] Are those not the minutes of the second meeting of the Reich Defense Council held on the 23rd of June 1939? Goering: I must read it first.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I call your attention to the fact that the chairman is Minister President General Field Marshal Goering. You will find that on Page 1. Goering: I have never disputed that. It was fixed by law. This deals with the second Reich Defense Council, not the first one. Besides, I was not present at this meeting; and I point out that on the left is a list of the authorities who took part in the meeting, and in my case it says "Minister President Field Marshal Goering," and on the right, as representative for him, "State Secretary Korner and State Secretary Neumann." But I shall have to look through the document first in order to find out whether I took part personally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Does it not say on Page 1, directly under the place of meeting, "Chairman: Minister President Goering"? Goering: Yes. I have to read it first.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you deny the authenticity of those minutes? Goering: I have not looked them through yet. It seems to be an absolutely authentic copy of the minutes; I admit that. But here again we are dealing with a meeting not, as I said when answering my counsel, of the Reich Defense Council, but of a larger meeting in which many other departments participated; and it is a matter of the second Reich Defense Council, which was set up after 1938, not a secret council such as was the case from 1933-38.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In other words, in interpreting your testimony, we must understand that, when you say there was no meeting of the Reich Defense Council, you mean only that there were no meetings at which no other people were present? Goering: No, that is not correct. There were two Reich defense laws concerning the Reich Defense Council which I tried to explain in my statement: the Secret Council of 1933 to 1938, which was not made public, and the Reich Defense Council which was created in 1938 and converted into the Ministerial Council in 1939; the latter held meetings which were in no way confined to its own members.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you say that this was not the Defense Council that met under the ban of secrecy? Goering: The Prosecution want me to answer first with "yes" or "no." It is hard to answer this question with "yes" or "no." I assert that the Secret Defense Council, which was not made public and which arose out of a meeting of ministers in 1933, never met. After 1938 a new Reich defense law created a new council. At that time it was clear that our military sovereignity had already been declared. This first council, which the Prosecution called the secret one, never met, and the document of yesterday proved that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Will you refer to Page 19 of this document, please, and tell me whether one of the very things with which this meeting concerned itself was not the lifting of the secrecy ban from the Reich defense law? Goering: No, that is not the way it reads here. If I may translate it, the last point on the agenda: Consequences resulting from the lifting of the secrecy ban on the Reich defense law and measures to expedite procddures have already been dealt with by a letter from the Reich Defense Committee on 26 June: "Consequences resulting from the lifting of the secrecy ban with a view to expediting written communications."
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have stated that on the Jewish question, some of the members of the government were more radical than you. Would you state who these were? Goering: Broadly speaking, when we took over the government, we only demanded their removal from political and other leading positions in the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is not what I asked you.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not a direct answer to the question. The question was that you said some members of the government were more radical toward Jews than you were. Would you tell us which of the members of the government were more radical than you were? Goering: Excuse me, I did not understand the question to mean who were more radical, but in what way they were more radical. If you ask who, then I would say that those were primarily Minister Goebbels and Himmler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you also include your co-defendant, Streicher , as more radical than you? Goering: Yes, but he was not a member of the government.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He was the Gauleiter, was he not, for this very territory in which we are sitting. Goering: That is correct; but he had very little or no influence on government measures.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about Heydrich? Goering: Heydrich was subordinate to Himmler. If I said Himmler, I, of course, include Heydrich.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Heydrich is then included in the list of the more radical ones to whom you refer? Goering: That is right; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about Bormann ? Goering: It was only during the later years that I observed that Bormann was becoming more radical. I do not know anything about his attitude in the beginning.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I want to review with you briefly what the Prosecution understands to be public acts taken by you in reference to the Jewish question. From the very beginning you regarded the elimination of the Jews from the economic life of Germany as one phase of the Four Year Plan under your jurisdiction, did you not? Goering: The elimination, yes; that is partly correct. The elimination as far as the large industries were concerned, because there were continual disturbances due to the fact that there were large industries, also armament industries, still partly under Jewish directors, or with Jewish shareholders, and that gave rise to a certain anxiety among the lower ranks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, do I understand that you want the Tribunal to believe that all you were concerned about was the big Jewish enterprises? That is the way you want to be understood? Goering: I was not at first disturbed by the small stores. They did not come into the Four Year Plan.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you become disturbed by the small stores? Goering: When trade had to be limited, it was pointed out that this could be done first by closing the Jewish stores.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, let us go through the public acts which you performed on the Jewish question. First, did you proclaim the Nuremberg Laws? Goering: As President of the Reichstag, yes. I have already stated that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What date was that? Goering: 1935, I believe; here in Nuremberg, in September.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was the beginning of the legal measures taken against the Jews, was it not? Goering: That was a legal measure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was the first of the legal measures taken by your government against the Jews, was it not? Goering: No, I believe the removal from office was before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was that? Goering: I could not state the exact date, but I believe that happened in 1933.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then on the first day of December 1936, you promulgated an act making it a death penalty for Germans to transfer property abroad or leave it abroad; the property of a culprit to be forfeited to the State, and the People's Court given jurisdiction to prosecute, did you not? Goering: That is correct; the "Decree Governing Restriction on Foreign Currency." That is to say, whoever had an account in a foreign country without permission of the government.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, your third public act was on 22 April 1938 when you published penalties for veiling the character of a Jewish enterprise within the Reich, was it not? Goering: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then on 28 July 1939, you, Hermann Goering, published certain prescriptions on the competence of the courts to handle those matters by the decree, did you not? Goering: Please, would you kindly read the law to me? I cannot recall it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will not take time reading it. Do you deny that you published the Reichsgesetzblatt law, 1939, found on Page 1370, referring to the competence of the courts to handle penalties against Jews? If you do not remember, say so. Goering: Yes, I say that I cannot remember the law. If it is in the Reichsgesetzblatt and bears my name, then, of course, it is so; but I do not remember the contents.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, on 26 April 1938 you, under the Four Year Plan, published a decree providing for the registration of Jewish property and provided that Jews inside and outside Germany must register their property, did you not? Goering: I assume so. I no longer remember it, but if you have the decree there, and if it is signed by me, there cannot be any doubt.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: On 26 April 1938 you published a decree under the Four Year Plan, did you not, that all acts of disposal of Jewish enterprises required the permission of the authorities? Goering: That I remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you published on 12 November 1938 a decree, also under the Four Year Plan, imposing a fine of a billion marks for atonement on all Jews? Goering: I have already explained that all these decrees at that time were signed by me, and I assume responsibility for them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I am asking you if you did not sign that particular decree? I am going to ask you some further questions about it later. Goering: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then on the 12th of November 1938, you also signed a decree that, under the Four Year Plan, all damage caused to Jewish property by the riots of 1938 must be repaired immediately by the Jews, and at their own expense; and their insurance claims were forfeited to the Reich. Did you personally sign that law? Goering: I did sign a similar law. Whether it was exactly the same as you have just read, I could not say.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You do not disagree that that was the substance of the law, do you? Goering: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And on the 12th of November 1938, did you not also personally sign a decree, also under the Four Year Plan, that Jews may not own retail stores, or engage independently in handicrafts or offer goods, or services, for sale at markets, fairs, or exhibitions; or act as leaders of enterprises or as members of co-operatives? Do you recall all of that? Goering: Yes. Those are all parts of the decrees for the elimination of Jewry from economic life.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, on the 21st of February 1939, you personally signed a decree, did you not, that the Jews must surrender all objects of precious metals and jewels purchased, to the public office within 2 weeks? Goering: I do not remember that, but without doubt, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I refer to Volume I of the Reichsgesetzblatt , 1939, Page 282. You have no recollection of that? Goering: I have not the Reichsgesetzblatt in front of me now, but if there is a decree in the Reichsgesetzblatt , or a law signed with my name, then I signed that law and decreed it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not also, on the 3rd of March 1939, sign a further decree concernin the period within which items of jewelry must be surrendered by Jews -- Reichsgesetzblatt , Volume 1, 1939, Page 387? Goering: I assume that was the decree for the execution of the decree for surrender previously mentioned. A law sometimes requires regulations and decrees for execution consequent upon the law. Taken together, this is one single measure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not also sign personally a decree under the Four Year Plan, of the 17th of September 1940, ordering the sequestration of Jewish property in Poland? Goering: Yes, as I stated before, in that part of Poland which, I may say, as an old German province, was to return to Germany.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not also, on the 30th day of November 1940, personally sign a decree which provided that the Jews should receive no compensation for damages caused by enemy attacks or by German forces, and did you not sign that in the capacity of President of the Reich Defense Council? I refer to the Reichsgesetzblatt , Volume 1, 1940, Page 1547. Goering: If you have it there before you, then it must be correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have no recollection of that? Goering: Not of all the separate laws and decrees. That is impossible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, it was you, was it not, who signed, on the 31st day of July 1941, a decree asking Himmler, and the Chief of Security Police and the SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich to make the plans for the complete solution of the Jewish question? Goering: No, that is not correct. I know that decree very well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask to have you shown Document 710, Exhibit Number USA-509.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that 710-PS?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: 710-PS, Your Honor. [Turning to the witness.] That document is signed by you, is it not? Goering: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it is addressed to the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service, and to SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich, isn't it? Goering: That is also correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am not certain whether the entire thing has been read into the record, but I think it should be; and, that we may have no difficulty about the translation of this, you correct me if I am wrong: Goering: Here is a mistake already. It says: "Complementing" not "completing" the task which has been assigned to you.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Very well, I will accept that. Am I correct so far? Goering: No, that is in no way correctly translated.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Give us your translation of it? Goering: May I read it as it is written here? Now comes the decisive word which has been mistranslated: "for a total solution," not "for a final solution." That was at a time when there was no war or prospect of a war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now are you reporting the instrument or are you making an explanation? Goering: I wanted to add an explanation to the quotation and just to point out the date.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. Well, I just did not want it to appear that it was a part of the instrument. The last that is contained in the instrument is: Is that not a substantially accurate translation of your order to Heydrich and Himmler? Goering: To Heydrich and the other government departments which had anything to do with it. That can be seen from the first part of the letter, the last sentence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let us have no misunderstanding about this translation now. This letter was directed to the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service, and SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich. We are right about that, are we not? Goering: That is correct, but I have to make an explanation in connection with that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Goering: The reason I sent this letter to him was that, by the decree of 24 January 1939, Heydrich, or it may have been Himmler, had been given the task of dealing with the emigration of the Jews. Therefore this was the govermnent department concerned, and it was to the department which had been given the task that I had to apply concerning all material and economic matters arising therefrom.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. And you ordered all other governmental agencies to co-operate with the Security Police and the SS in the final solution of the Jewish question, did you not? Goering: There is nothing about the SS here, only about the Sicherheitspolizei, a governmental agency. The fact that Heydrich was SS GruppenFuehrer had no direct bearing on it, because it was sent to the Chief of the Security Police -- mentioning his rank as SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And mentioning his rank in the SS was just superfluous and has nothing to do with the case? Goering: I have to explain that. For instance, if I write to the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, then I write: "To the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Colonel General or Field Marshal Von Brauchitsch." And if I write to the Chief of the Security Police, then I must address it: "To the Chief of the Security Police, SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich." That was his rank and his title. However, that does not mean that the SS had anything to do with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, at the time that you issued this order you had received complete reports as to the 1938 riots and Heydrich's part in them, hadn't you? Goering: At that time I had no knowledge of Heydrich's part in the riots -- only Heydrich's report on the riots, for which I had asked.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Now we will show you Document Number 3058-PS, in evidence as Exhibit Number USA-508. [Document 3058-PS was submitted to the witness.] That is the report written by Heydrich which you say you had received, and it is dated 11 November 1938, is it not? Goering: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it recited to you the looting of Jewish shops, the arrest of 174 persons for looting, the destruction of 815 shops, 171 dwellings set on fire or destroyed, and that this indicated only a fraction of the actual damage caused; 191 synagogues were set on fire, and another 76 completely destroyed; in addition, 11 parish halls, cemetery chapels, and similar buildings were set on fire, and 3 more completely destroyed; 20,000 Jews were arrested; also, 7 Aryans and 3 foreigners -- the latter were arrested for their own safety; 36 deaths were reported, and the seriously injured were also numbered at 36. Those killed and injured are Jews. One Jew is still missing. The Jews killed include 1 Polish national and those injured include 2 Poles. You had that report on or about the 11th day of November 1938, did you not? Goering: That is correct. That is the report mentioned by me and which I had asked the police to supply, because I wanted to know what had happened up to then.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Exactly. And the note was made at the top of it, "The General Field Marshal has been informed and no steps are to be taken." Was it not? Goering: That is not quite correct. It says here, "General Field Marshal has taken note. No steps are to be taken by any other office," because I myself wanted to take them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you know that that is not true, do you not, that steps were to be taken by some other office? I put 20 March -46 it to you squarely whether you are telling this Tribunal the truth when you say that no steps were to be taken by anyone else. Goering: This is a note by my staff department, that nothing was to be done by that quarter, because I said I was going to deal with it personally. In fact I went straight to the Fuehrer with this report.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Did you receive a report from the Chief Party Judge of the Nazi Party, dated Munich, the 13th of February 1939, concerning the proceedings taken by the Party in these matters? Goering: That is correct. I received that report much later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And at the time you appointed -- I withdraw the question. It is obvious from the dates of the documents. You acknowledged the receipt of that document, did you not, to Party member Buch? Goering: That is also correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the only proceedings that were taken about these riots were those taken by the Party Court, were they not? Goering: Not quite; some were brought before the law courts. That is in the report also.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask that he be shown the report, which is Document 3063-PS. It is not in evidence. Since the document apparently has not been brought here, I will ask you from your recollection. Goering: I know it fairly well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I thought so. Goering: No, because it has been submitted to me before, here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, it has not been kept from you. Now, in the first place, the Party Court reported that it was probably understood -- I quote -- "by all of the Party leaders present, from oral instructions of the Reich Propaganda Director, that the Party should not appear outwardly as the originator of the demonstrations, but in reality should organize and execute them." Was that the report of the Party Court? Goering: The Party Court, as a result of its investigation, established that the Propaganda Chief, Dr. Goebbels, had given these directives. May I ask, if we are dealing with a report dated March or maybe April?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The 13th of February 1939, is the date. Goering: Yes, that is correct; that is the result of investigations after the incidents.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is right. Now, as a result of the riots, did the Court, the Party Court, not also report this to you: that the Supreme Party Court has reserved itself the right to investigate the killings, also the severe mistreatment and moral crimes and will request the Fuehrer to drop proceedings against any person whom the Party Court did not find guilty of excesses? Goering: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Party Court was made up of Gauleiter and Group Leaders of the Party? Goering: The Party Court changed. I cannot say just now, without having the document, who made up the Party Court at that time. I see that I am being given the document.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I call your attention to Page 4, toward the bottom, where the report says, "Gauleiter and Group Leaders of the branches served as jurors at the trials and decisions." Goering: Yes, it was a matter of course that the jurors of the Party Court were always taken from these categories according to their importance. I wanted only to say I did not know which persons were taking part here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, the Party Court found five persons guilty of offenses, did they not? Number 1, a Party member, was guilty of a moral crime and race violation and he was expelled. Is that right? Goering: And turned over to the penal court. That is what it says in the last sentence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is right. Another Party member, Case Number 2, was suspected of race violation and expelled from the Nazi Party. Goering: Expelled for suspected race violation and theft, and turned over to the ordinary court.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes; and Number 2, Gustav, was expelled from the Party and SA for theft. Right? Goering: You are at Number 3?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have Number 2, Gustav, the first name mentioned. Goering: Gustav is the first name - Gerstner -- yes, for theft, also turned over to the ordinary court for suspected race violation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Number 3 dealt with two expulsions of Party members on the grounds of moral crimes against a Jewess, and they are now held in protective custody. Right? Goering: Expelled from the NSDAP and taken into protective custody; they were also turned over to the civil court later. I know that very well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, we come to Cases 4 and 5, the first of which was a man, a Party member and SA member, who was reprimanded and declared unfit to hold office for 3 years because of a disciplinary offense, namely, for killing the Jewish couple Selig, contrary to order. Is that right? Goering: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in the last of these cases the offender was reprimanded and declared unfit to hold office for 3 years for shooting a 16-year-old Jew, contrary to orders after completion of the drive. Is that right? Goering: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We now come to the cases of the killing of Jews, where proceedings were suspended or minor punishments pronounced. I will not go through those in detail, but it is a fact that only minor punishments were pronounced by the Supreme Court of the Party for the killing of Jews, were they not? Goering: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I now ask you to turn to Page 8. Goering: One moment please.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I call your attention to the language in regard to Cases 3 to 16. Goering: Which page, please?