dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
REINECKE: REINECKE: Yes, I can give you information on that subject. This testimony is... THE PRESIDENT: But, Dr. Pelckmann, the document is not yet in evidence, unless you offer it. Now, if you offer it, it is different. But you are carefully trying to contradict it. What is the good of contradicting a document which is not in evidence? We have never seen it. HERR PELCKMANN: If Your Lordship would hear the witness, then you would discover that I am not trying to contradict the document. THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to offer the document in evidence then? HERR PELCKMANN: First of all, I should like to put it to the witness and then if I get your permission I should very much like to offer it in evidence. THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, you offer it in evidence and you are relying upon the document, are you? Are you relying upon it or are you not? HERR PELCKMANN: As far as I can quote from Page 46, yes. TBE PRESIDENT: If you want to put it in for the purpose of relying on Page 46, you can do that. HERR PELCKMANN: And the following pages, the entire testimony signed "E. H." THE PRESIDENT: Go on. HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, you understood my question? REINECKE: Yes. HERR PELCKMANN: Please will you answer it. REINECKE: This testimony by "E.H." is the testimony of a female detainee, Eleanora Hodis from Auschwitz, and was made in the late autumn of 1944, under oath, before an SS judge. An investigating commission of the Main Office SS Courts had instituted proceedings against Grabner, Chief of the Police at Auschwitz, and various other participants, for the murder of detainees, and these people were indicted for murder in 2,000 cases. As was always the case, considerable difficulties were met with in the attempt to clear up the facts. The female detainee, Eleanora 475 7 Aug. 46 Hodis, declared herself willing to assist the investigating commission of the SS court by giving evidence, provided the judges would guarantee her life. That guarantee was given, and it was possible to get Hodis out of Auschwitz and transfer her to Munich.
REINECKE: In Munich, at the date indicated, she gave her testimony, with those gruesome details which were to form the basis of proceedings to be instituted against Hoess and many other people. However, due to the collapse of Germany the proceedings could not be carried through. HERR PELCKMANN: Is it correct, therefore, Witness, that the conditions which are described here existed in the Dachau Concentration Camp, as it would appear ... REINECKE: No. HERR PELCKMANN: ... by being included in this book, because after all, this book deals with the Concentration Camp Dachau? REINECKE: No, that is not correct. The testimony given by the witness Hodis refers exclusively to the atrocious and gruesome conditions at Auschwitz, and has nothing whatever to do with Dachau Camp. HERR PELCKMANN: Finally, Your Lordship, I merely beg to be allowed to refer to Document D-959 which has been submitted by the British Delegation. When discussing the question ... THE PRESIDENT: Give that document you just put in some number. HERR PELCKMANN: The document "SS-Dachau"... THE PRESIDENT: You can give it a number afterward. Do not delay now. HERR PELCKMANN: I will merely look up the number of documents I have submitted up to now and then I will give them numbers. When the Prosecution defined their attitude regarding the admissibility of that document, they said that it was regretted that the document could be submitted only so very late. In other words, as we all know, it ought to have been submitted during the presentation of evidence. At this stage, with reference to the hundreds of statements regarding the activity of the Waffen-SS in Czechoslovakia, I cannot now define my attitude and I, too, regret that the document arrived so very late. However, as it has now been admitted and as the Tribunal is taking judicial notice of it, I think I ought to have the possibility, therefore, of referring to the details which are brought up in support of the case for the Prosecution-its value cannot be assessed otherwise-so as to have the opportunity to define my attitude.
REINECKE: For that purpose I beg to be granted a respite. 476 7 Aug. 46 THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the Tribunal thinks that you must go on with your case and that you cannot be given further time. The Tribunal has said that they are bound to take judicial notice of the document under Article. 21 and this witness has told us he had never heard of the incidents-two incidents I think-to which counsel drew his attention. HERR PELCKMANN: I am afraid I did not understand the translation of the last part of what you said, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: I said that you must go on with your case and that the Tribunal had admitted that document under Article 21, and that with reference to the two incidents to which counsel for the Prosecution referred, this witness has said that he has never heard of them. HERR PELCKMANN: I have no further questions to this witness. DR. GAWLIK: With reference to the Document D-960, submitted during cross-examination, I have a few questions to put to the witness. THE PRESIDENT: Which document? Which document? DR. GAWLIK: D-960, Exhibit Number GB-569. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, I shall once again have the document shown to you. [The witness was handed the document.] Was the SD responsible for dealing with this letter? REINECKE: That question must be answered with "no." It becomes evident from its heading that the letter is addressed to the Security Police and SD at Strasbourg. The application of the term SD in this case is misleading; it was simply used by way of habit and had nothing to do with the organization of the SD.. It results from the Chief of the Reich Security Main Office calling himself "Chief of Security Police and the SD." DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Witness, I want to ask you a few questions about the investigation of the camps. You said your investigation began in 1943. What time in the year 1943 did your investigation begin of the concentration camps? REINECKE: Your Lordship, that was during the second half of 1943, as far as I can recollect, either in June or July. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr.
REINECKE: Biddle): It lasted for a little under two years until the end of the war, I suppose. REINECKE: Yes. 477 7 Aug. 46 THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): How many camps did you investigate? REINECKE: It began in Buchenwald Camp, and thereafter investigating commissions were sent to every 'camp which had attracted suspicion. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Witness, listen very carefully and answer the questions. All I asked you was how many camps did you investigate? REINECKE: In all, investigations were made in 7 to 10 camps, but I cannot give you the exact figure at the moment. It varied from time to time. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You mean 7 to 10 in, all, altogether 7 to 10? REINECKE: Yes, that is what I meant. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did that include labor training camps also? REINECKE: By the 7 to 10 camps I mean the "Stammlager" (parent camps), that is the concentration camps themselves, and from there the investigation spread from the parent camp where the commission was stationed to the labor camps. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And that included Auschwitz and Dachau? REINECKE: In both these concentration camps there were investigation commissions. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And Treblinka? REINECKE: Not in Treblinka, Your Lordship. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did you investigate any camps outside of Germany? REINECKE: Yes, for instance we had a commission in the Concentration Camp Hertogenbosch in Holland, and there proceedings were instituted against a camp commander, which ended in long terms of imprisonment. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): How many investigators were you using at any one time? REII,CKE: The total of investigating officials may have varied from 30 o 50 people, the majority of whom were not taken from the legal authorities but were experts from the Reich Security Main Office and from the Criminal Police. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): No, I do not want-now, how many cases did you recommend for court action? 478 7 Aug. 46 REINECKE: Proceedings which ended with a sentence amounted to 200 up to the end of the war; that is to say, 200 sentences were passed which were actually carried out.
REINECKE: THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Again I did not ask you that, Witness; I said, how many cases did you recommend for action. You made recommendations, did you not? REINECKE: Altogether 800 cases, 800 proceedings were instituted in the course of the investigations. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Where did you send your reports? Did you send them directly to the courts? REINECKE: When the investigation was completed and when the case was ready for prosecution, the reports from the investigating commissions went, together with the judge's order to prosecute, to the court itself, which would then hold the actual trial and pronounce sentence. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And where did copies of the reports go? Did a copy go to the Minister of the Interior? REINECKE: No, that I consider out of the question. THE TRIBUNAL(Mr. Biddle): You mean the Minister of the' Interior was not concerned with any of this? REINECKE: We are here concerned with criminal proceedings against members of the SS which, therefore, came under the penal jurisdiction of the SS and, as far as that is concerned, the Ministry of the Interior was not involved. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You mean you were only investigating cases that involved the SS? REINECKE: All cases were investigated which originated in the camps, and these cases referred to SS members and also to Police members, that is to say, members of the Security Police who were brought to trial before the courts. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Well now, you have not told us what conditions you found in the camps. You said they were very bad. What were they; what was going on in the camps? REINECKE: We discovered through our investigations that in the camps there was to some extent a regular system of killing which was in use. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And as a result of discovering that there was a regular system of killing you thought there must be an order to that effect, although you never found it, is that right? REINECKE: Yes, Your Lordship. The fact that an order from above was in existence became known to us at the end of 1944. 479 7 Aug.,46 THE TRIBUNAL (Mr.
REINECKE: Biddle): Now, why did you think that there was a regular system of killing? Was it because there were so many killings? REINECKE: For the reason that there were so many cases, and also because a system of co-operation between the concentration camp commanders with the criminal detainees could be established. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): That is right. And how many of those 7 to 10 camps, how many commandants, were involved in these killings? REINECKE: In practice the situation was such that practically every commander was brought under investigation and criminal proceedings were taken against five commanders in all. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Five, five out of how many? REINECKE: Altogether there were 12 commanders of concentration camps, because there were 12 large concentration camps, the so-called "Stamm" (parent) concentration camps. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): So out of 12 investigated you started proceedings against 5, is that right? REINECKE: Yes, that is so. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Now, you said you thought that the killings must be on a large scale. Did you find any evidence of any of the gas chambers which added to your belief that it might be a large-scale operation? You found some evidence of gas chambers? REINECKE: The first case in which a gas chamber appeared was the case of Auschwitz. That is the case, Your Lordship, that I have just mentioned here, with reference to the detainee Eleanora Hodis. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): When was it that you got a report that a gas chamber was being used in Auschwitz? When? REINECKE: That was at the end of October or the beginning of November 1944. THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did you get figures of the numbers of persons who had died in these 10 concentration camps? Did you find out how many persons had died in the different camps? Did you get statistics? REINECKE: No, Your Lordship, about that we received no information. We had to collect and look for all the material ourselves, but we had no survey. TBE PRESIDENT: Can you remember the names of the five whom you prosecuted, the five commandants? 480 7 Aug.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it 1944 or 1940? MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: 1940, My Lord. It is a new docu-ment which bears the Number USSR-512. It was found by the Red Army in the Berlin archives. It will be submitted now to the Tribunal. I quote: "My dear Himmler: I was highly pleased to learn of my promotion by the Führer to the rank of Obdrgruppenführer of the SS. You know my attitude to your SS and how greatly I admire their development, which was the fruit of your own work. I shall always consider it a special honor to belong to this proud corps of the Führer, which is of decisive importance for the future of our Great German Reich. I remain your faithful friend, Joachim Ribbentrop." MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Tell me, Witness, does not the first sentence of the document testify to the fact that the members of the SS whom you ' called honorary members were actually promoted by Himmler according to his estimation of their activity? REINECKE: This document, in my opinion, proves something which I tried to describe yesterday. I said that it is typical for the honorary leaders that they did not actually come from the SS as such; that is to say, they had not performed any duty in the SS for many years like all the other men, but who at some stage and quite suddenly were awarded a high rank and given SS uniforms, without in ... MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: No, Witness, I am asking you something quite different. You are not answering my question. I asked you if it was not a fact that Himmler promoted the so-called honorary members according to his estimation of their activity? From the SS point of view, naturally. REINECKE: Yes, that is correct, insofar as it was typical of Himmler's policy that personalities who were holding certain posi-tions of power were granted the right to wear the SS uniform, and those are the honorary leaders. MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to, put to the witness, Mr. President. DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendant Frank): Mr. Pres-ident, this morning the, Prosecution submitted a Document D-926, also numbered GB-568.
THE PRESIDENT: The subject of that document is files of the Bavarian Ministry of Justice which deal with the death of prisoners of war in the concentration camp at Dachau. I ask for permission to read into the record Figure 12 of that document now, which was not read out by the Prosecution. As reason for my application, I should like to explain that this is the same document which I applied for 6 months ago and which could not be found. The portions of this document read by the Prosecution may create the impression that the statement by the Defendant Frank in the witness box with reference to this question may not be correct. Figure 12, however shows ... THE PRESIDENT: Whom are you applying on behalf of-Frank? DR. SEIDL: I make the application on behalf of the Defendant Frank. THE PRESIDENT: I think on Page 10 of the English copy, and. with the Heading 12, the two top paragraphs were read this. morning. DR. SEIDL: Only the two first sentences of Paragraph 2 were read. The remaining sentences were not read. Paragraph 3 was not read either. THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Seidl, you may read what you want to read. DR. SEIDL: I shall then quote under Figure 12 a note for the files: "Concerning: Dachau Concentration Camp. "I. Memorandum. The proposal of the State Minister of the Interior to quash the inquiry now pending at the public prosecution office at the Provincial Court, Munich II, into the death of the prisoners Handschuch, Franz, and Katz, who were in protective custody, was the subject of a discussion during the meeting of the Council of Ministers on 5 Decem-ber 1933. As a result, the State Minister of Justice communi-cated the following to the undersigned official: "The criminal proceedings regarding the happenings in the Dachau Concentration Camp are to be continued with all determination. The facts are to be cleared up with the utmost speed. If necessary the Landespolizei are to be brought in to assist. Any attempts to hush up the case must be opposed by all available means.
THE PRESIDENT: "The Oberstaatsanwalt (public prosecutor) at the Provincial Court, Munich II, was instructed, in accordance with the decision of the Council of Ministers, to continue the proceed-ings immediately with all energy, and try to clear up the incidents as soon as possible. He will apply for preliminary court investigations and see to their being completed rapidly -in the case of Franz and Katz immediately, and in the case of Handschuch after the arrival of the documents from the Political Police, who have been requested to return them. He has been instructed to keep the State Ministry of Justice informed about the course of the proceedings and to produce the files with an attached report about the result after the closing of the preliminary investigation, stating also what further action is intended. The public prosecutor at the Oberlandesgericht (Court of Appeal) in Munich has been notified and instructed that he also for his part is to pay particular attention to the proceedings. The preliminary in-vestigations will probably be conducted by Landgerichtsrat (Provincial Court Counsellor) Kissner, competent for the district of Dachau. "The liaison officer with the Political Police, I. Staatsanwalt (first public prosecutor) Dr. Stepp, was instructed, according to orders, to communicate the decision of the Council of Ministers to the Chief of the Political Police, Himmler, and to the Chief of the Bavarian Political Police." DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Mr. President. HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, once again, I shall come back to the document which has just been read out by my colleague Seidl. When this document was put to you, you pointed out that this was an instruction concerning an incident which took place very early in 1933. During your interrogation, you, yourself, said that in the course of your investigation in later years you discovered that mur-ders had been hushed up by means of false reports on the facts.
THE PRESIDENT: For that reason I would like to ask you once more: Is it correct that, when in the course of your investigation in later years you discovered cases of concealment, you fought against such procedure? REINECKE: That was precisely one of our main activities. We had to counter these attempts of concealment which cropped up everywhere in the course of current proceedings. Repeatedly, in many different camps, we were able to ascertain by our commissions that such cases of concealment did exist, and in those cases we at once called the guilty party to account. HERR PELCKMANN: Could your SS legal authorities take proceedings against such crimes already in 1933? REINECKE: In 1933 there was not yet an SS jurisdiction, that is, no penal jurisdiction. Responsibility for carrying out such criminal proceedings lay with the criminal prosecution authorities of the general justice, and this becomes apparent from this document. It was their task to bring to judgment the guilty men responsible in such cases. HERR PELCKMANN: A report, a document, has been put before you, Document D-924, GB-570, which refers to the horrible shooting of deportees by the escorts. You commented upon that and I noticed that you could not quite finish your statement, because I believe you wanted to add some details reflecting your personal impressions. Would you like to do that now? REINECKE: Yes. I wanted to say that this deals with a convoy of prisoners and the accompanying escorts, and that my own state-ments about the guards referred exclusively to those in the camps, that is to say, those guards who were on duty outside the camps on watchtowers, et cetera, and who had to return to their billets after duty. These men, therefore, had nothing to do with the in-ternal affairs of the camps. Presumably such transports were carried out by members of the commanders' staffs.
THE PRESIDENT: HERR PELCKMANN: From the document containing the statis-tics regarding the strength of the SS on 30 June 1934-and I regret that the document number is not visible on my copy -- I should like to put to you the figure of 794,000 members of the SS in 1944. Wit-ness Brill yesterday told us higher figures, approximately 900,000 to a million. Since the witness Brill is no longer present, I should like to ask you if you are sufficiently informed as to whether the difference may be attributed to the fact that the figure mentioned by witness Brill also included the dead, those who had been killed, and therefore the figure given by witness Brill was not an incorrect statement on his part. REINECKE: I have the knowledge necessary to answer the ques-tion because, working in the legal department, I constantly had to concern myself with the strength of the SS. I know that the state-ment by witness Brill corresponds to the facts. It is a fact, as stated by defendant's counsel, that the figure given by witness Brill includes the losses suffered by the Waffen-SS. The figures contained in this document must be increased by the number of killed in the course of the war, both of men and leaders, either low-ranking or senior, of the Waffen-SS, in order to draw conclusions regarding the real strength of the Waffen-SS. BERR PELCKMANN: On Page 28 of the same document you have the numbers in the various offices. The final total is 39,415 members of the SS. -Do you still have the document before you, Witness? REINECKE: No, unfortunately I have not. [The document was handed to the witness.] HERR PELCKMANN: You said that the figure representing the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office, which was respon-sible for the administration of the entire concentration camp system, was 24,091 persons. Does this mean persons who were carrying out purely clerical work? Were there in fact 24,000 clerks in that depart-ment? Or what does that figure mean?