dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
to authorization of the statute, and they have had quite elaborate dealing with this question of nominating a commission to take testimony. It seems to be a general custom in international tribunals to authorize it, and I don't see how we can ever do this job unless we can delegate some evidence taking to masters. I just think it is an unworkable thing, otherwise, and since it is agreed that the court may do it under the formula suggested by Professor Trainin, I don't see what objection there could be to expressly authorizing it so that there could be no question about it. PROFESSOR TRAININ. Of course there is a difference between an international court and an international military tribunal which would try criminal cases. I doubt whether that would be really necessary, but in any case there is nothing to prevent the Tribunal's doing that. For instance, in the Charter of the United Nations organization certain questions are left open such as the important question of contingence of armed forces placed at its disposal. That question will be settled by separate agreement. We could leave this question for the Tribunal to decide. It would be much easier. We would lose less time that way. There isn't a single word in this charter which would prevent the Tribunal's doing that. JUDGE FALCO. A word of subsidiary nature would perhaps prevent the court's thinking it had no power to appoint officers to take testimony. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Particularly when the document is concerned with naming of secretaries, reporters, et cetera, who are merely clerical officers, it should not omit masters. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. It means "somebody who can be sent to the bedside of a witness to take his evidence". That is exactly what it means. JUDGE FALCO. You could perhaps find another expression of subsidiary nature. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. Suppose we merely say that the Tribunal shall have power to appoint officers designated to carry out tasks designated by it. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. I hate to leave questions open in this agreement for argument among the prosecutors. It seems to me the amendment suggested here meets the situation frankly and clearly and the Tribunal would then have no trouble. Since it is conceded that the court ought to have that power, I cannot
JUSTICE JACKSON. I hate to leave questions open in this agreement for argument among the prosecutors. It seems to me the amendment suggested here meets the situation frankly and clearly and the Tribunal would then have no trouble. Since it is conceded that the court ought to have that power, I cannot understand the objection to making it clear so that we shall not be in dispute or confusion when we come to apply it. PROFESSOR TRAININ. The Tribunal would appoint these masters only in very special cases, and I don't think in the charter of the International Military Tribunal it is necessary to state that the Tribunal might delegate its powers to somebody. If it finds it necessary, then it would do so. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. There is nothing accomplished by discussing it further. It is something we disagree on, and I think a case of this size is unworkable if masters cannot be used; at least, it is unworkable in anything like our system of trial. PROFESSOR TRAININ. We would be willing to accept your formula. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I should have thought that would have covered it. Take out "secretaries and interpreters" and say "appoint officers for the carrying out of any task designated by the Tribunal." MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Are not we agreed on the question? Does this leave it open to argument as to whether the court would have the power? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I don't think there is any question that it would not. I should imagine it gives the Tribunal the power. I think Professor Trainin's point is that it is one for the Tribunal and not for the charter, and really that is the main point, that this is a Tribunal matter and not a charter-makers' matter. PROFESSOR TRAININ. According to this new formula of yours, it would have full power then. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Well, I think we can pass it. We know each other's positions about it. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. The other point is 22. "The administrative headquarters . . . shall be located at Berlin. The first trial. . . ." Is there a Soviet objection? PROFESSOR TRAININ. We propose it shall be said, "The Tribunal shall be located or established in Berlin." And of course it could sit in various places. Perhaps you could say, "The Tribunal shall
headquarters . . . shall be located at Berlin. The first trial. . . ." Is there a Soviet objection? PROFESSOR TRAININ. We propose it shall be said, "The Tribunal shall be located or established in Berlin." And of course it could sit in various places. Perhaps you could say, "The Tribunal shall be located in Berlin and it shall sit in such places as shall be determined by the Tribunal." MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. What is meant by that? Just what would be in Berlin? GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. Before the first trial takes place certain organizational work would have to be carried out in preparation for the trial. That work would be carried out in Berlin. Furthermore, the administrative headquarters would be in Berlin, the secretariat in Berlin, the judges would meet there before the first trial begins, and when the trials begin they would take place in various other cities. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. Apart from the administrative headquarters and the secretariat-that is in the draft-there would be, I think General Nikitchenko said, a meeting of the judges and preparatory work of the prosecutors. What I suggested was that there should be a meeting of the prosecutors in Berlin-that the indictment should be handed over at Berlin. And now I think we are getting nearer agreement if we take it as concrete and specific things. Would that meet the Soviet Delegation's approval if we had these four things: administrative headquarters, secretariat, meeting of the prosecutors, and the indictment should be handed over at Berlin. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. The Tribunal is really made up of its members and also of various organisms such as secretariat, etcetera. If we just speak of administrative organization and secretariat, the members would think that should be in Berlin before the first trial began, that is, to get ready for that trial. That does not in any way mean that the members of the Tribunal or the prosecutors would have to live in Berlin. They would decide to meet, say once a week or once every fortnight or whatever they thought fit-to meet there, and settle certain general questions before the trial begins-to have a place where they could meet. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Our people on the Control Council have told me that they thought it much better if
to live in Berlin. They would decide to meet, say once a week or once every fortnight or whatever they thought fit-to meet there, and settle certain general questions before the trial begins-to have a place where they could meet. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Our people on the Control Council have told me that they thought it much better if the proceedings of this court were held some place other than where the Four Power military government was trying to function. And that is why they suggested Nurnberg, that Berlin already is having great difficulty to find adequate housing and other facilities. It has been badly destroyed, and the situation there is such that neither transportation nor communication nor housing would be easy to provide for us in addition to the requirements made by government. So far as I am informed, there simply are not facilities at Berlin to carry this on. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. That has nothing to do with the trials. They would not take place in Berlin probably. All that this first sentence provides for is a place where the members can meet before the trial begins to look at the indictment and settle any other questions that may be brought about. As we learned in an international court which has its address in The Hague, the members would not remain there permanently, and this, of course, would not in any way prevent the Tribunal from having trials not in Berlin. As a matter of fact, they probably would take place in other places but should have a residence where they could meet. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. But why should we go to Berlin where our records wouldn't be-we have tons of records-where the prisoners wouldn't be, and meet there when it seems to me that we should meet where the prisoners and the records and the evidence are. PROFESSOR TRAININ. The members of the Tribunal and Chief Prosecutors may decide somewhere else but every institution of that sort should have an address, or permanent residence, that is. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. That is what I thought we had covered by the "administrative headquarters". GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. These words are not quite clear. What does it actually mean? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. It would be the administrative headquarters which would be the permanent residence and personal address. What we call a
FYFE. That is what I thought we had covered by the "administrative headquarters". GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. These words are not quite clear. What does it actually mean? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. It would be the administrative headquarters which would be the permanent residence and personal address. What we call a registered office-the permanent residence. It certainly would cover the seat of the Tribunal and the personal address. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. Yes, that is what we contemplate. This new firm of ours-the Tribunal-would have to have an address and that should be Berlin. Do not say "administrative headquarters", which in Russian at least is not clear. MIR. JUSTICE JACKSON. That is what I want to be perfectly clear about, what is being asked? In the first place we have had, I think, different ideas about the system of trials-what we are going to do. Now the British have filed a draft list naming nine and two more for consideration as defendants. Our plan has been, as I have said here, to include key men in a single trial and to reach others through that trial of organizations so that we would not have to hold more than one trial or at least not more than a few trials. We think on studying our list of prisoners that we would reach, through the trial of organizations, almost all of these people by our methods. Now I gather there is a different idea in the Soviet Delegation's mind, and I would like to inquire how many prisoners in addition to ours you want tried and what kind of prisoners they are. What is their rank, what is their position, what is the problem of reaching your prisoners, as you see it? GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. We have no lists with us of the prisoners held in custody by the Soviet authorities; so we are really not in a position to answer that question, but in any case we do not contemplate that this Tribunal should deal with a great many prisoners. Prisoners who would come under the jurisdiction of this Tribunal would be the major criminals, that is, mainstays of the Nazi government, leaders of the Nazi Party, chiefs of the Gestapo and S.S., etcetera. Of course apparently the United States and Great Britain, and probably France, have their own lists of criminals, and at the present time we could not precisely answer
this Tribunal would be the major criminals, that is, mainstays of the Nazi government, leaders of the Nazi Party, chiefs of the Gestapo and S.S., etcetera. Of course apparently the United States and Great Britain, and probably France, have their own lists of criminals, and at the present time we could not precisely answer that question, but we do not contemplate having too many of these people-that would be only the major leaders. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I think that view is universal, what we all have in mind. That would be exactly my answer. I would include high-ranking generals that we can prove have taken part in any of the crimes-High Command, not chiefs in general. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. And perhaps certain major organizers of war, such as Schacht, Krupp, or persons like that. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. My mind is quite open and prepared to take any case put up by the prosecutors. I don't think that there is any disagreement with us, Mr. Justice Jackson. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Well, I think we agree on certain things, but I have got to get our prisoners some place where we can go to work on their cases, and the only place I can find to do it is in Nurnberg. And you see I cannot find out, in addition to our list and yours, how many are, involved. The principal man that is missing from our list is Martin Bormann, and apart from him there isn't much that we have not got in prison. I have been told that the Russians have Bormann, and I am wondering if that is true-if they can bring Bormann to trial along with the rest. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. Unfortunately we have no information at the present time about Bormann. The Soviet idea was that, immediately after the agreement is concluded, a person would be appointed who would deal with these matters. Of course the Soviet authorities are carrying out investigations on their part, but the Soviet idea was that that would be taken up immediately after we have the charter and agreement ready and signed. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I was wondering whether something of this sort might do. Then we leave the place to be fixed by the prosecutors if it is to be elsewhere than Berlin. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. I would not agree to that, Mr. Attorney-General. We would
we have the charter and agreement ready and signed. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I was wondering whether something of this sort might do. Then we leave the place to be fixed by the prosecutors if it is to be elsewhere than Berlin. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. I would not agree to that, Mr. Attorney-General. We would have to meet in Berlin unless there were a majority to meet somewhere else. I think we have to fix the meeting place. There comes in there the tie-vote situation. I think we would have to fix it. I don't want to be stubborn about it, but I have to tell the Army where to get ready for these trials. I can't leave it for prosecutors, two of whom are not yet appointed. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. No, it is much better to have the thing out now. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. I think it is something to be settled in the agreement, because I have got to get these prisoners there. I am really getting very discouraged about this, I must say. And it seems to me that there are one or two or three things to do. I am getting very discouraged about the possibility of conducting an international trial with the different viewpoints. It isn't the fault of anybody, but we have very different viewpoints. I think the United States might well withdraw from this matter and turn our prisoners over to the European powers to try, or else agree on separate trials, or something of that sort. It seems to me our difference in viewpoint is too great to work without so much difficulty and delay that it is going to be impractical to try these people within the length of time I can commit the United States to this venture. The matter has taken a different shape than when I came here authorized to sign on behalf of my Government, and it looks quite discouraging, I must say. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I am sorry. I am a born optimist myself and also a working politician. This is the first time for the United Nations to get to work on a concrete task, and there are bound to be difficulties, but I have been struck this afternoon, as on Friday when we dealt with article 15, with the realization that, when we got down to it, we found agreement. I should be displeased, and my Government would be extremely disappointed if we could not find means of
and there are bound to be difficulties, but I have been struck this afternoon, as on Friday when we dealt with article 15, with the realization that, when we got down to it, we found agreement. I should be displeased, and my Government would be extremely disappointed if we could not find means of working this out as an international body. Apart from our own people or the peoples of Europe, our work is to see these top-notch Nazis tried, condemned, and many of them executed. And I should be very sorry if we fell down when we have drafted out so much agreement over, to my mind, matters of detail. As I see this problem as we are dealing with it at the moment, we give the Tribunal an address of residence and a secretariat, the judges meet or the prosecutors meet, and then as soon as possible the men go to the place of their own decision. I don't really think there is any point of difference between us yet. GENERAL NIKITCHENKO. Not a single government would have sent its representative here unless it wanted united action on this matter, and the Soviet Government on its part wanted and does want united action, and that is why under the Moscow and Crimea declarations they have done so. Our committee here has done a good deal of valuable work, and, of course, we would not be happy about the fact we have met with difficulties. There have been moments when the Soviet Delegation was rather discouraged with the progress of the work and thought perhaps some details could impair our reaching an agreement. But as a result of good will and good intentions on all sides we have been able out of 30 articles of the charter and of the agreement to come to agreement on 27 articles of the charter and the whole agreement. Therefore all we have left is three articles, and as a matter of fact in principle we agreed this afternoon on what should be included in the sixth article. In regard to the article about special masters, the Soviet Delegation thinks that on that point agreement which would satisfy everybody could be reached. So apparently all that is left now is to name or not to name the permanent seat of the Tribunal and of the Chief Prosecutors. This would have extremely great importance if the permanent seat of the Tribunal would
thinks that on that point agreement which would satisfy everybody could be reached. So apparently all that is left now is to name or not to name the permanent seat of the Tribunal and of the Chief Prosecutors. This would have extremely great importance if the permanent seat of the Tribunal would necessarily mean that all the trials would be held there. Mr. Justice Jackson says that the most convenient place for the American prisoners would be Nurnberg, and very probably the first trial would in fact take place in Nurnberg, but as there are prisoners in the hands of the British, French, et cetera, investigation of charges against those persons would probably go oil at the same time in preparation for subsequent trials. I do not say that there would be many trials, perhaps three or four, probably not more. In any case there should be a place where members of the Tribunal could meet to discuss certain questions before the first trial or in between the trials. For separate meetings they can choose any place they like. The trials would also take place not in Berlin but in other places. But the center where they should meet if they wanted to should be the permanent seat. JUDGE FALCO. The French Delegation thinks it would be very disappointed if we do not manage to make an international agreement and think we nearly reached doing it. As the Russian delegate said, on all questions and exceptions we have had of any consequence there are only perhaps one or two questions we are not quite agreed on but nearly agreed on all but the last. As far as lam concerned, after what I saw at Nurnberg, it is certainly an excellent place to hold the trials and have all the organization of the court and prosecution and I think it would be a great mistake to have the headquarters and secretariat at another place where the trials are not going on. There we saw all is very well for the trials, but, if the Russian Delegation makes this a question of principle and tells us that question is only settled if the headquarters of the secretariat be at Berlin, I would consider it. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Well, the difficulty with the proposition here is that, if the United States is going to take responsibility as host for these trials at Nurnberg, we must
principle and tells us that question is only settled if the headquarters of the secretariat be at Berlin, I would consider it. MR. JUSTICE JACKSON. Well, the difficulty with the proposition here is that, if the United States is going to take responsibility as host for these trials at Nurnberg, we must put a staff to work getting physical plans ready, and the same is true any place else. The Army has told me again and again, "Don't come at us without consultation months ahead of time because it takes time." Now we could not even find out under the proposal now before us where the trial could be held until the other prosecutors are appointed. It would be the middle of September before we could know whether we could even go ahead, and I cannot wait that long. I shall have to say to my Government that they will have to put someone else to this task because I must be back to the Supreme Court. That is not your trouble, of course, but it is a very practical one for me. I think this agreement should fix the place for the first trial so that we can be at work at once getting it ready. I have tried to point out the facilities at Nurnberg. I am willing to give a list of my prisoners and lay all my cards on the table, but if you let this thing drag we will be running into different currents of public sentiment and people will be disgusted with too much delay. I don't see how we can, as lawyers responsible to our people, permit it. I could not accept the draft that is suggested by the chairman much as I would like to be agreeable to a man who is so agreeable to us but I regard it as an unworkable thing to leave it so that there could be no meeting place fixed until some remote time when all are appointed. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. I don't think I made it clear that draft is only of the first sentence. I hoped that we would go on to deal with the question of the first trial after that. That was only taking the place of the words "administrative headquarters of the Tribunal and its secretariat shall be located at Berlin", which was the agreed draft. I was elaborating on that to meet the Soviet point on the address and the meeting unless otherwise agreed. That is the first sentence only; then I thought we should