dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SAUCKEL: I cannot say and do not know when Rosenberg made this speech. I myself did not hear it or receive a copy of it. I can, however, definitely state that as soon as I came into office I made most extensive arrangements, so that the conditions which Rosenberg discusses here-and which can have nothing to do with my term of office-might be avoided under all circumstances. It was for that purpose that I issued those most comprehensive orders. To prevent such conditions I planned hundreds of valid and binding instructions of a legal nature, affecting every nationality working in Germany, which would make such conditions impossible. That is what I have to say to that. It cannot refer to conditions during my term of office. GEN. ALEXANDROV Mr. President, I shall limit myself to this one single excerpt from the speech of the Defendant Rosenberg, and I shall not avail myself of the numerous documents already presented to the Tribunal, documents which confirm beyond all manner of doubt the criminal methods applied-with the full cognizance of the Defendant Sauckel-for the mobilization of manpower in the occupied territories and for the exploitation of the workers as slaves in Germany. I shall only submit to the Tribunal one single new document, listed as Document Number USSR-468. This document is a worker's identity card issued by the German authorities in Breslau to a Polish citizen, Maria Atler. This card is characterized by the fact that it is stamped on the reverse side with the image of a pig. Maria Atler has stated on oath that such worker's identity cards were issued to all foreign workers in 1944 by the German authorities in Breslau. Together with this original document I am submitting a certificate of the Polish State Commission which quotes the testimony of the witness Maria Atler. [Turning to the defendant.] Defendant Sauckel, have you looked at that worker's identity card? Have you found the image of a pig on that card?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did you know of the existence of such workers' cards, stamped with the image of a pig as an insult to human dignity?
SAUCKEL: I did not have cards like that, and I knew nothing about it. I cannot quite make out what this image is meant to be. I have nothing at all to do with this. I am not familiar with such an identification mark on a card and do not know what I am to say about it. I do not know whether it was possible for some labor administration office to use such identification marks or not. I should like permission to see the original.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did you know of the existence of such cards and of their utilization?
SAUCKEL: No, I had no idea of the existence of such cards with images like that. It was not to my advantage, and I had no reason at all to offend such people who were working in Germany. I had no idea of that, and I do not know what this was meant to be.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now quote a brief excerpt from Document Number USSR-170. This is a transcript of the minutes of a conference held with Reich Marshal Goering on 6 August 1942. I shall quote that part of the statement in which the Defendant Goering expresses his appreciation of your activities. I quote: "To that I must say that I do not wish to praise Gauleiter Sauckel; he does not need it. But what he has done in this brief time to collect workers from all over Europe and bring them to our factories with such rapidity is a unique feat. I will say this to you all: If everybody in his own sphere would apply a tenth of the energy which Gauleiter Sauckel has applied, then indeed the tasks which have been assigned to you would be easily fulfilled. That is my inner conviction and not mere words." Did you hear such an appreciation of your activities from the lips of Reich Marshal Goering?
SAUCKEL: It is possible that the Reich Marshal said that. I cannot remember the details of a meeting that took place so long ago. What is correct is that I, as a human being and as a member of my nation, was obliged to do my duty. My documents prove that I tried to do my duty decently and humanely. I did my utmost to do that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I now submit to the Tribunal a document listed as Document Number USSR-462. It is an article by Dr. Friedrich Didier, published in the Reichsarbeitsblatt of 1944. This is an official publication of the Reich Ministry of Labor and of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor. The article is entitled "Fritz Sauckel on his Fiftieth Birthday." I do not intend to quote this article as it is written entirely in praise of Sauckel's activities, and there is no reason to dwell on it. I only wish to ask you, Defendant Sauckel, are you acquainted with this article?
SAUCKEL: I do not know this article. I cannot say what is in it. I was not always able to read through the Reichsarbeitsblatt-it wasn't published by me. It is an old institution of the Labor Ministry which contains all the decrees published by that Ministry and also my decrees. The decrees in the Reichsarbeitsblatt all testify to my concern for foreign and for German workers.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then you will have to acquaint yourself very rapidly with the contents of this article. It will be handed to you immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: What document is this he is reading?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is an article in the Reichsarbeitsblatt entitled "Fritz Sauckel on his Fiftieth Birthday." We are submitting this document for the first time as Document Number USSR-462. [Turning to the defendant.] Are you now conversant with it? Tell us, does this article correctly characterize your political and governmental activity?
SAUCKEL: The author of this article is not an expert. I cannot make any further comments on the contents of a birthday article. It contains a very cursory description of my career and my sphere of work.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And now, one last question. In your speech at the first meeting of the staffs for the Allocation of Labor, held in Weimar on 6 January 1943, you stated-and I quote from the third document book of your defense counsel, Document Number Sauckel-82: "Now, where the foundations of our work are concerned . . ."- I skip the first paragraph and pass directly to the second- "We are true to our E Fuehr and to our people. This loyalty justifies us in the execution of the harshest measures."-And then, at the end-"In this respect I will assume ever-increasing responsibility." Tell us now, are you assuming responsibility for the enforced mass deportation into slavery of the population of the occupied territories, for the suffering and misery of the millions you drove into slavery, for the grim period of slaveholding which you revived in the twentieth century?
SAUCKEL: I am most grateful to you that you quoted this document at this very moment. Would you show me this document so that I can give the correct explanation of my views as contained therein?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: If necessary, your defense counsel will acquaint you with this document. Mr. President, I have finished my cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, do you want to re-examine?
DR. THOMA: Witness, what was Rosenberg's role, as Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, in the execution of the Allocation of Labor?
SAUCKEL: The Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, in carrying out the Allocation of Labor, had to pass on my wishes and demands to the offices under him in that Ministry insofar as they related to my tasks. I cannot, of course, comment on the other departments in the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, which I do not know.
DR. THOMA: Did not Rosenberg tell you repeatedly that he would give Reich Commissioner Koch directions to make use of his authority?
SAUCKEL: That is correct. It was one of Rosenberg's tasks to give orders to Reich Commissioner Koch, who was under him, in every field of administration there. 31 May 46 ,
DR. THOMA: So that the way you understood it was that he was to give him instructions. In what way?
SAUCKEL: Rosenberg did and should-as we had expressly agreed-give instructions to Koch to put a stop to any wild and objectionable methods which were contrary to my instructions; and that Rosenberg did, as far as I know.
DR. THOMA: Rosenberg, by referring to the authority of the Reich Commissioner, meant that he was to prohibit your recruiting methods and no longer permit your recruiting units to bring away Eastern Workers?
SAUCKEL: Rosenberg never said that to me, rather he denied it; for these commissions, while they were in the Ukraine, were subordinate to and part of the labor allocation department of Reich Commissioner Koch. Koch was the supervising authority and the administrative authority for such matters. Those are the undeniable facts.
DR. THOMA: May I point out to the Tribunal that a Document, Rosenberg-10, shows that Sauckel did not understand this statement of Rosenberg's.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you refer to some document there, Dr. Thoma?
DR. THOMA: Rosenberg-10.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, the re-examination of the witness by the defense counsel for the Defendant Rosenberg must limit itself to new matters which have been brought up and are the subject of argument. There was every opportunity, when his client was in the witness stand, to clarify these questions. At the time I wanted to clear up this question on my own initiative, but I was informed that I ought to ask Sauckel. He made a clear statement here, and in my opinion there is no cause once more to come back in this connection to documents which belong to a previous period of the defense. I object to such questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Thoma, I think you had better go on and ask your next question. I have not got the document before me yet that you are putting to the witness, or referring to. What is your next question?
DR. THOMA: Witness, did you not in your program assume full responsibility for the Allocation of Labor?
SAUCKEL: I assumed responsibility, and I acknowledge it, for what came within the limits of my power-I cannot do more than that-and for what I ordered and for what I caused to be done. This collection of decrees, Dr. Thoma, has been submitted and was shown to Herr Rosenberg...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the defendant has been over this all before. He has been all through this before-about his responsibility.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, may I point out that regarding the question of responsibility, there is a certain paragraph-the decisive paragraph-which has not yet been read. It is Document 016-PS concerning the labor allocation program, and it says on Page 21, Figure 1...
THE PRESIDENT: Just say what the document is again, will you Dr. Thoma?
DR. THOMA: 016-PS, Page 20 of the German document. It says: "All technical and administrative procedure of labor allocation is subject exclusively to the jurisdiction and responsibility of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor, the regional labor offices and the labor offices..."
SAUCKEL: Inside Germany, Doctor. Outside Germany I was, of course, subject to the competent chiefs of the areas in question. That is quite obvious.
DR. THOMA: In reply to that answer I draw the attention of the Tribunal to Page 15 of this labor program. This Figure 1, which I have just read, comes under the paragraph, "Prisoners of War and Foreign Workers."
SAUCKEL: To the extent that they were employed in Germany.
DR. THOMA: May I point out that it states clearly under Figure 1: "All technical and administrative procedure of labor allocation..."
SAUCKEL: And may I point out that it was not possible for me to interfere with Reich Commissioner Koch's authority. He had said expressly that he would not permit that.
DR. THOMA: Witness, the Delegate for the Four Year Plan gave you special powers concerning conscription in dealings with all authorities and, in my opinion, it is not right that you should now deny these methods of recruitment and pass responsibility for them on to the Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. I have no further questions.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, the defense counsel for Defendant Rosenberg may engage in cross-questioning, but it does not appear to me to be the right moment for him to make a speech of accusation against my client.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I am well aware of the facts that there have been two cross-examinations, and I have no desire to go on with another one. However, we do have one document that we think is of some importance and which was turned over to General Alexandrov, but I think there must have been some language difficulty. The translation of it was not presented. I would like the permission of the Tribunal to ask one or two questions of this defendant about it and to present it. I think it is rather important that it be presented.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that this ought to create a precedent, but in view of your statement that the document was supplied to General Alexandrov and that, for some reason, he did not deal with it, we will allow you to crossexamine upon it.
MR. DODD: Very well, Sir. Witness, do you remember an occasion in 1942, just after your appointment, when you met with some officials of the Ministry of Labor and you discussed with them the program which you were about to institute and for which you were about to take respond Ability? Do you recall it?
SAUCKEL: I cannot, of course, remember details of that discussion. Various points of the program were discussed, and I might also say in connection with the comments made by the defense counsel for the Defendant Rosenberg since what he has been quoting is...
MR. DODD: Just a minute, just a minute. I simply asked you if you remembered this meeting, and you said you did not, and now there is the document.
SAUCKEL: Details of that conference I do not remember.
MR. DODD: And now take a look at the minutes of the meeting.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document?
MR. DODD: This is EC-318.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number? Has it been offered or not?
MR. DODD: I am now offering it. I was waiting to get the number from the secretary. I will have to get the number a little later, Mr. President. I had not made preparations to submit this document, so I did not have the number in advance. [Turning to the defendant.] Now, I want to call your attention particularly to a few passages. You start out by telling the officials who were gathered there that you want to co-operate closely with them; and then, moving along, you give some idea of the number of workers whom you intend to recruit. You say there is an estimated requirement of 1 million; and you also made perfectly clear that day that you were to get most of your people, most of these workers, from the East and particularly from Soviet Russia. You told these officials that you had talked for several hours with the E Fuehr and for 8 hours with the Reich Marshal, and that you all agreed that the most important problem was the exploitation of the manpower in the East. You further stated-do you see that in there?
SAUCKEL: Where does it say exploitation? I cannot find that word.
MR. DODD: Well, do you find where you say you had discussed your task with the E Fuehr in a conversation that had lasted for several hours? Do you find that?
SAUCKEL: I cannot find it.
MR. DODD: You have the German there before you, have you not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, but will you please be kind enough to tell me the page?
MR. DODD: In the middle of Page 2. Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Mr. Prosecutor, I want particularly to point out to you the difference in German between the words "Ausnutzung" and "Ausbeutung." "Ausbeutung" (exploitation) is a word which, in the language of the workers, has a rather bad implication, but "Ausnutzung" (use of) is quite an ordinary concept; to use something means making it useful. That is a great difference in meaning in the German language.
MR. DODD: Well, we wills stand by ours and you may stand by yours, and the Tribunal will ascertain between the two of us nacho has the correct translation. In any event, whether you said "use of" or "exploit," you did say that the most important solution was either the use of or the exploitation . . .
SAUCKEL: But that is not the same thing, Mr. Prosecutor. In German there is a fundamental difference in meaning. I must point out that the word exploitation is a word which I did not use and did not want to use.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, would you speak a little bit lower. You quite drown the interpreter's voice.
SAUCKEL: I beg your pardon, My Lord.
MR. DODD: I am not concerned with whether or not you agree with the word "exploit." That is a very unimportant part of this document, as I think you probably already recognize.
SAUCKEL: I beg to contradict you. That word is most important from the humane point of view. · 177
MR. DODD: I don't care to have any argument with you at all. We . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, the Tribunal is perfectly well able to understand the difference between the use of the words, and you have told us the translation you say is right.
MR. DODD: Now, if you move down a little bit, do you recall having said that 1 million Russians would have to be brought into Germany as rapidly as possible, to become available even prior to the offensive? It is the next sentence or two there in your text. You won't see it by looking at me. Do you read the next sentence?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I should like permission to read the next sentence: '`The necessary condition for taking on the task would be the assurance that Russians would be given approximately the same rations as have been in force for the German civilian population."
MR. DODD: You have skipped the sentence that I want you to read. I know that one comes along, but I want you to read the one where you say you would have to bring 1 million Russians into the Reich as rapidly as possible, and that is the very next or almost the next sentence after the one you have been discussing, about the word "exploit" or "use of."
SAUCKEL: ". . . must be brought to the Reich as quickly as possible."
MR. DODD: That is all I want to know. Do you remember saying that?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I said that. I must say in connection with this that this is a record which I have never seen before or checked. Someone made it, but the record itself I was not familiar with, and it was never submitted to me.
MR. DODD: Well, I suppose it could be truthful even though you didn't make it. Let us move on here to the next to the last paragraph, and you will find a sentence which says or suggests: "They"-referring to the Russians-"will have to be handled so roughly by the German administration in the East that they will prefer to go to Germany rather than stay in Russia." Do you find that?
SAUCKEL: Will you tell me where that sentence is?
MR. DODD: Well, it is right after the sentence where you talk about your negotiations with Himmler. Maybe that will help you. Do you find where you say you had negotiations with the Reichsfuehrer SS? You succeeded in getting him to remove the barbed wire. Surely you have read that. Now you find the sentence, do you? "They would have to be handled so roughly by the German administration in the East that they would prefer to go to Germany rather than stay in Russia." Do you remember saying that?
SAUCKEL: I cannot say that I used these specific words in speaking to him, for, as I have already stated, it is a record of statements of a problematical nature which I myself did not check, and I cannot be sure how a third person came to write this record from memory. These are not shorthand minutes; it is merely a record which is not signed by anyone and in which...
MR. DODD: I don't think you need to give us any long dissertation on the fact that it is somebody else's minutes. It is not offered to you as being your own.
SAUCKEL: Yes, but I have the right and am obliged to say that.
MR. DODD: I wish you would wait a minute and let me put a question to you once in a while. I have not suggested that these are your minutes. I have merely put it to you for the purpose of determining whether or not on seeing it you remember it. And do you, or do you not remember it?
SAUCKEL: I certainly do not remember that passage. I can merely read here something written by a third person, and I do not know who it was. This person may quite well have misunderstood me; that is possible...
MR. DODD: Well, you also find you did have some conversations with the Reichsfuehrer SS. Do you remember having said that, in the course of this conversation or speech or whatever it was that you were making?
SAUCKEL: The Reichsfuehrer SS put me off on several occasions, and I had to insist to get the Reichsfuehrer SS to remove the barbed wire fences. I did that. From the very beginning of my term of office I moderated the orders of the Reichsfuehrer SS; and that, of course, caused vigorous arguments between us.
MR. DODD: Then that part of the minutes of this meeting is correct, isn't it? The reporter, or whoever it was that took this down, correctly reported what you said about your negotiations with the Reichsfuehrer SS, did he? You find no fault with that?
SAUCKEL: What he wrote down in detail about what I am supposed to have said I have not yet read.
MR. DODD: Now, listen. You read back and look at that paper at which you have just been looking. You find fault with the sentence that reports that you said they were to be handled roughly in the East, but you do not find any fault with the sentence ahead of it which says you had the barbed wire taken down, isn't that so? You seem to be complaining about the fact that this was somebody else s report and not yours. Have you read it?
SAUCKEL: No.
MR. DODD: Well, it is the sentence just before the one we have just been talking about. Do you really mean you cannot find it? Do you want help?
SAUCKEL: Two pages appear in duplicate here.
MR. DODD: All I have asked you, Witness, is whether or not the sentence about your meeting with Himmler is a fairly accurate report of what you said. Is it?
SAUCKEL: That I cannot tell you from memory. I very seldom spoke to Himmler and then only cursorily. It may have been negotiations carried out by my office on my order. That I cannot tell you.
MR. DODD: Well, your answer to all of this is, then, that you don't remember what you said there; this doesn't help you any to remember.
SAUCKEL: You cannot possibly expect me to remember exactly events which lasted very briefly and took place so long ago.
MR. DODD: I am perfectly willing to let it rest there. There is the written record against your failure of memory, and I will leave that with the Tribunal...
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think you should put to him...
SAUCKEL: With which, however, I was not familiar before this.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should put to him the next paragraph, "Thirdly . . ." which follows after the sentence about handling them so roughly.
MR. DODD: Yes, Sir. [Turning to tile defendant.] Now, if you will keep your finger on that place that you have there, you won't lose it, and you will find the next sentence is-begins: "Thirdly, he termed intolerable the wage rates previously decreed by the Reich Marshal, and has persuaded the Reich Marshal that Russians should have the possibility of earning up to one half of the wages of German workers." With reference to that statement, what had the Reich Marshal suggested, by the way?
SAUCKEL: Before I took up my office-and I have talked about that at length with my defense counsel-there existed decrees of the Ministerial Council regarding wage regulations, and I continually improved those wages-four times, in fact, as far as I could manage it, during my term in office.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not an answer to the question. The question you were asked was: What had the Reich Marshal suggested as wages for these workers? You can answer that.
SAUCKEL: The Reich Marshal did not make any suggestions to me. When I entered office I found regulations in existence which I considered insufficient.
MR. DODD: Well, tell us a little more about it. What do you mean insufficient? You used here the word intolerable. What was the situation when you came into the office with respect to wages?