dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now we will go on to Document Number 566-PS. It is your telegram to Hitler dated 20 April 1943 which you sent during your flight to Riga. This telegram will now be handed to you and you will be shown the excerpt which I am about to read: "I shall devote my entire strength with fanatical determination to the accomplishment of my task, and to justify your confidence." Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: It is correct. I saw in Hitler, whom at that time I revered, a man who was the leader of the German people, who had been chosen by the German people; and I, as a German citizen and a member of a German government department, considered it my duty to justify by my work in my own sphere the confidence placed in me by the head of the State. I might say regarding this telegram . . .
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No explanations are needed about this telegram. I am not interested in your attitude towards Hitler. I am only interested in your personal attitude to those measures for compulsory labor which were carried out by you. It is essential to keep all questions within these limits. Now follows Document Number 1292-PS. This is a record of the meeting at Hitler's headquarters on 4 January 1944...
SAUCKEL: I request the permission of the Tribunal to add a few words to your last statement, Mr. Prosecutor. I was unable to see a criminal in Hitler at that time, and I never felt he was one; but I did feel obliged to do my duty, nothing else. As a human being and as the result of my upbringing I would never have supported crime.
THE PRESIDENT: What was your question, General? Simply whether this was a telegram sent to Hitler?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked about the telegram, from which I have read one sentence into the record, in order to obtain a con- firmation from the Defendant Sauckel that this telegram had been sent. I was not interested in anything else. [Turning to the defendant.] The next document is 1292-PS. Have you got this document?
SAUCKEL: No.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have already been shown the passage I am about to read. Your statement reads as follows: "GBA Sauckel declared that with fanatical determination he would attempt to secure this manpower." You were, at that time, speaking of the mobilization of 4 million workers. It says further: "He would do everything in his power to obtain the manpower desired for 1944." Did you say that? Is the statement correctly rendered in the minutes of the report?
SAUCKEL: I did say that, and I ask to be allowed to add the following to my affirmative reply. I knew that the German people, and they were my people, were in dire-may I add an explanation to my clear reply, stating why I answered as I did? I am entitled to do so.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, you accompany every answer you give with lengthy supplementary explanations. You are merely delaying the interrogation. I am quite satisfied with your reply; what you have told me is perfectly sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: General, he has given a perfectly clear answer that he did say it, and I think he is entitled to give some word of explanation. It is perfectly true that his explanations are intolerably long, but he is entitled to give some explanation,
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, if every answer is to be accompanied by such extensive explanations...
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I have said that he is entitled to give some explanation. [Turning to the defendant.] Now then; please make it short.
SAUCKEL: I knew that the German people were engaged in their most bitter struggle. It was my duty to carry on with my task with all my strength-that is what I meant by "fanatical." I further explained, in another sentence, that I could not accomplish my task that year. As far as I was able to accomplish it in 1944 two-thirds were German workers, not mainly aliens but more than two-thirds Germans; and I was trying my utmost to put all German women to work, as far as they were capable of working, and in 1944 there were over 2 million of them.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In April 1943 in order to accelerate the deportation of manpower to Germany from the occupied territories you visited Rovno, Kiev, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporoahe, Simferopol, Minsk, and Riga. In June of the same year you visited Prague, Kiev, Krakow, Zaporoahe, and Melitopol. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: That is true, and during those journeys I personally satisfied myself that my departments were working properly. That was the object of my journey.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Thus you personally organized the deportation into slavery of the peaceful population of the occupied territories. Is that correct too?
SAUCKEL: I must protest against that statement in the most vehement and passionate way. I did not do that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then why did you go to all these towns and inhabited places? Did you not do so in order to enforce the deportation of the people in the occupied territories?
SAUCKEL: I visited these areas to satisfy myself personally as to how my offices in these cities-I should not say "my," but the labor offices of the local administrations-were working; whether they were conscientiously carrying out their obligations towards the workers; whether they were attending to medical examinations, card indexing, et cetera, according to my instructions. That is why I went to those towns. I negotiated with the chiefs in the matter of quotas, that is quite true, since it was my task to recruit workers and to check the quotas, but during my visits to these cities I inspected the offices personally to satisfy myself that they were functioning properly.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And also to insure the speedy deportation of compulsory labor to Germany? Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: To employ the best possible methods for the purpose in view. That is indisputably stated in my orders, and the manifesto which has been submitted to the Tribunal was written on this very journey which you have just mentioned.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You specially visited these cities in order to improve the methods of compulsory recruitment? Have I understood you correctly?
SAUCKEL: I went to these towns to see for myself whether the methods were correct or not, and to discuss them with the departments. That is true, for it was not necessary for me to visit Kharkov, Kiev, or any other town to discuss my task in terms of figures. For that I would only have to talk to the reporter for the East, whose office was in Berlin, or with the Reich Commissioner-whom I did not contact as he was sometimes in Rovno.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In your statements to your defense counsel you declared that no cases of criminal or illegal methods of 131 May 46 compulsory recruitment had ever come to your knowledge. Then what was the reason for such extensive trips to the occupied territories? Does it mean that some indication had already reached you that large-scale, illegal practices were taking place in the process of labor recruitment? Was that the reason for your journeys? You visited over 10 cities.
SAUCKEL: May I inform you, Mr. Prosecutor, while we are on this subject, that my defense counsel has already asked me that question and that I answered it with "yes," and that, generally speaking, whenever complaints reached me I discussed them with Rosenberg, and that wherever a wrong could be righted it was righted. Please hear my defense counsel and my witnesses in this connection . . .
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The witnesses will be called on the decision of the Tribunal. I should now like to ascertain that you took those trips in order to improve methods of recruitment. I have come to the logical conclusion that in all these towns, prior to your arrival, a certain lawlessness had prevailed and crimes had been committed during the recruiting of manpower. That is what I am speaking about. And now will you give me a definite answer as to why you visited these places?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered that question in every respect. However, I would add that I assume that you, Mr. Prosecutor, have yourself had sufficient administrative experience to realize that in every department, anywhere in every country of the world, it is a matter of course that administrative orders should be checked. One does not need to know that mistakes are made in human life and in every human organization; a control must be exercised all the same.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: If you deny that you went there in order to improve conditions and to suppress the crimes perpetrated in the course of labor recruitment, then you must have gone there to accelerate the deportation of manpower into Germany. It is one thing or the other. Choose for yourself.
SAUCKEL: No, I must emphatically deny that. I undertook these journeys in order to satisfy myself, within the scope of my duties, how this task was being carried out, and to stop defects which were reported to me, as for instance-as I once told my defense counsel during my interrogation-I had also been asked to do so by Field Marshal Kluge. But I also wanted to look into matters carefully and myself give appropriate admonitions and instructions to the departments. My best evidence of this is the manifesto produced during this journey.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, can you tell the Tribunal how much longer you will be?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am afraid to make an exact statement, but I should imagine about 2 more hours.
THE PRESIDENT: You are not losing sight of the fact, are you, that we have already had a thorough cross-examination by the French Prosecutor?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President . . .
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal hopes that you will try to make your cross-examination as short as possible, and the Tribunal will adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, tell us what attitude you, as Plenipotentiary General adopted toward the employment of Soviet prisoners of war in the German industries?
SAUCKEL: I must reply to your question by saying that I had no collaborators in the employment of prisoners of war, for I did not employ prisoners of war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And you never saw to their mobilization; you never registered them?
SAUCKEL: As the authorized mediating agency I had to have the administrative measures carried out through the labor offices, or the Gau labor offices, which served as intermediaries between the factories and the Stalags or the generals in charge of prisoner-of-war affairs, who in their turn supplied prisoners of war for the industries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And what were these organizations? What kind of organizations were they?
SAUCKEL: They were either the generals in charge of prisoner-of-war establishments in the military administrative districts, or the organizations of the industries, or the factories themselves. These worked through the respective ministries, such as the Reich Ministry of Food and Agriculture, in which case the majority of the prisoners were billeted with farmers for work on the land or in war industries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, you had nothing to do with it? I would remind you...
SAUCKEL: I had to include the labor offices and the Gau labor offices to the extent that they had undertaken to act officially as intermediaries, but only if they did not act directly between the factories and the Stalags.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now quote an excerpt from your report to Hitler on 27 July 1942. It is Document Number 1296-PS. In this report, Part III, there is a particular section. It is entitled. ..
SAUCKEL: II or III, please?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: III. It is entitled: "Employment of Soviet Russian Prisoners of War." You write there: "In addition to the employment of civilian manpower, I have increased the employment of Soviet prisoners of war, according to plan, in co-operation with the Prisoners of War Organization of the OKW." And further on. "I particularly stress the importance of a further increased and expedited deportation of the maximum number of prisoners of war possible from the front to work within the Reich." Is this correct?
SAUCKEL: That is correct, and it corresponds exactly to what I have stated before.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It does not altogether correspond.
SAUCKEL: But it does.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mentioned that you did not have anything to do with the employment of prisoners" of war in the German industries and now, in your report, you give perfectly different data. So I am asking you, in connection with what I have read into the record: Did you not plan in advance the employment of Soviet prisoners of war as workers in the industries? That was provided for in your plans and your report covers that. Was that so, or was it not?
SAUCKEL: I must point out one fundamental error on your part. Labor procurement, the whole world over, whether operated by the state or by private individuals, is not an organization or institution which exploits workers, but rather which procures workers. I must establish this fundamental error. It was my duty to provide the necessary connection, so that prisoners of war in Stalags in the occupied territories-let us say in the Government General-could be registered by local generals in charge of prisoner-of-war establishments, for work contemplated in Germany in certain agricultural or other sectors, and then allotted accordingly. Employment of labor in factories was not under my supervision and had nothing to do with me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, you participated in supplying Soviet prisoners of war for utilization in German industry. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: That is not correct, according to my use of the German language, as I understand you. Rather, to act as agent is quite a different thing from utilization; concerning this, other gentlemen would have to comment. I can only speak as far as agency is concerned. In Germany this was managed by the State. In other countries it is managed privately. That is the difference, but I have never exploited anybody. As Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor I did not employ a single worker.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did you know that the Soviet prisoners of war were being employed in the armament industries in Germany?
SAUCKEL: It was known to me that Soviet prisoners of war were being employed in the German war industry for this industry was vast and widespread, and covered the most varied branches.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Were you acquainted, in particular, with the directive of Defendant Keitel regarding the employment of Soviet prisoners of war in the mining industry? This directive is dated 8 January 1943. Do you know anything at all about this directive?
SAUCKEL: I cannot recollect it in detail. I have not got it. Will you be good enough to put it before me? The document was handed to the defendant.]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read it?
SAUCKEL: I have read it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It clearly mentions the employment of Soviet prisoners of war in the mining industry for military purposes. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: It refers to the employment of prisoners of war in the mining industry in Germany.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: For what purpose? It is clearly stated in this document.
SAUCKEL: For employment in the mining industry.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But for what purpose? What purpose was it to serve? It is clearly stated here.
SAUCKEL: For work, I presume.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In the interest of the war?
SAUCKEL: Well, as a matter of fact, the German mining industry did not only work in the interest of the war; Germany also supplied quite a lot of coal to neutral countries. It varied according to circumstances.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Follow this document; read it with me: "For the execution of the expanded iron and steel program the E Fuehr ordered on 7 July the absolute guarantee..."
SAUCKEL: I have not been given the part you are reading.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: "For the execution of the expanded iron and steel program the E Fuehr ordered on 7 July the absolute guarantee of the coal and means of production needed. For this purpose he has also ordered that the necessary manpower be supplied by prisoners of war." Now, have you found the place?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I have read it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Thus the Soviet prisoners of war were to be employed in the mining industry for the purposes of the war. Is that right? The fact is definitely established by this document.
SAUCKEL: Yes; it says so-I might remark that this document is not addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked you whether you knew of this document. You said "yes," did you not?
SAUCKEL: I am not acquainted with it-no; I do not know it now. I did not know it previously as it was not addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You said that, broadly speaking, you did know about this directive and you asked me to allow you to acquaint yourself with it in detail. This is how it was translated to me.
SAUCKEL: No; I told you-and I should like to emphasize this- that I did not remember; I only asked that this document might perhaps be placed before me. The document is not addressed to me. The office to which it is addressed is clearly indicated and according to that it never came into my hands nor reached my office.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In order that you may fully understand this question, I shall give you Exhibit USA-206. That is your directive of the 22 August 1942 with regard to supplying manpower by means of importation from the occupied territories. Do you know about this directive?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the PS number?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: One minute, please. Unfortunately I have no information about the PS number. All I have is the USA Exhibit Number, which is 206. Defendant Sauckel...
THE PRESIDENT: Have the United States prosecutors got the corresponding number to USA-206?
MR. DODD: I could have it in a few minutes, Mr. President. I do not have it right at my fingertips, but I will obtain it.
THE PRESIDENT: Right; thank you.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, Subparagraph 8 of this order states: "This order applies also to prisoners of war." Does it contain a reference of this description?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Therefore, you yourself did not differentiate between prisoners of war and the civilian population as far as their utilization in the German war industries was concerned. Do you admit that?
SAUCKEL: Yes, and I have already replied to my defense counsel, I think it was yesterday, that a catalog was given to me and the Ministry of Labor in general showing how prisoners of war might be employed. But this Paragraph 8 has nothing to do with this document, for that was an agreement or an order which did not come to me and was also not addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, Exhibit USA-206 bears the following number: 3044-PS. [Turning to the defendant.] In addition to those statements to your defense counsel which you have just mentioned, you also declared that, although employing prisoners of war in the German war industries, the requirements of the Geneva and Hague Conventions were nevertheless observed. Do you remember saying that?
SAUCKEL: Yes, and it is also proved by documentary evidence that in the Reich Ministry of Labor, and in my offices, the directive Divas issued and circulated that the Geneva Convention was also to be observed with regard to Soviet prisoners of war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not differentiate at all between Soviet prisoners of war and civilian workers? Does that result from the foregoing?
SAUCKEL: No, that is not so at all.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, a violation of these conventions occurred in the utilization of manpower, inasmuch as they, the prisoners of war, were treated by you in the same way as the civilians, and were utilized in industries for the purpose of waging war.
SAUCKEL: In that case, I must have misunderstood you, or you may have misunderstood me. I particularly declared that I did attach importance to it, and that it was printed and that during the time I was in office a special copy was published for the factories and the interested parties in which it was stipulated that the Geneva Convention was to be observed. I could do no more than that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel questioned you in connection with the operation known under the code name of "Hay." You answered his question as follows and I quote from the transcript: "Sauckel: No, I had nothing to do with these particular measures." I shall now hand you a letter from Alfred Meyer dated 11 July 1944. This is Document Number 199-PS. It is a letter addressed to you. Will you please study Subparagraph 1; it reads: "Army recruiting staff 'Mitte,' hitherto stationed in Minsk, must continue its activities with regard to the recruitment of young White Ruthenian and Russian workers for military employment within the Reich. The staff has the additional task of bringing into the Reich young folk from 10 to 14 years of age." Have you found this passage?
SAUCKEL: I have read the passage and my reply is that the letter, to be sure, is addressed to me, but only for my information, and I had nothing to do with those proceedings either in my office or personally. I have-that was-it has been mentioned already in the case of the Defendant Schirach-that was carried out within those offices, and the Allocation of Labor, as an office was not involved in it. I personally do not remember it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: What were your relations with the army recruiting staff Mitte? Was that your staff?
SAUCKEL: I do not understand your question. What staff do you mean?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The staff referred to in Alfred Meyer's letter, staff Mitte, dealing with the employment of labor.
SAUCKEL: I cannot find the word "staff."
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Right in the beginning of the sentence: "It is imperative that the army recruiting staff. . . "
SAUCKEL: The army recruiting staff Mitte is a term completely unknown to me. I do not know what it was, or whether it was a military or a civil office. It had nothing to do with me. I do not know it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have testified here that the Reich Security Office had introduced special identification badges for people brought in from the occupied territories. For the Soviet citizens the badge was-can you not hear me?
SAUCKEL: I cannot understand the translation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have testified before the Tribunal that for people brought in from the occupied territories special identification badges were introduced. For the Soviet citizens the marking was "Ost," for Polish citizens it was the letter "P." You testified that you were not in agreement with the marking. What did you do to stop this insult?
SAUCKEL: I persistently tried to avoid the identification markings altogether. But the Reichsfuehrer SS categorically demanded- to the best of my knowledge there is a letter from him to that effect-that these foreign workers who, at my request, were free to move about Germany, should bear a distinguishing mark when they went out of their camps. It was no insult. I should like to emphasize expressly that I did not look on this as an insult.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is your point of view. Did you discuss the matter at all with your immediate superior, the Defendant Goering?