dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
KALTENBRUNNER: This document has not been shown to me during previous interrogations before the Trial. Otherwise, I would have immediately answered with a request that the cousin of the witness Karwinsky, who was chief of the Social Insurance Department at Linz and who bears the same name, be called as a witness and be asked whether it is correct that he expressly told me that this Karwinsky was detained at Dachau and never at Mauthausen. May I add that the witness Dr. Skubl, who will appear before the Tribunal in another matter, can probably make a statement on the same matter, particularly regarding the fact that this witness Karwinsky was arrested near the Swiss border when he escaped after the Anschluss and that he was taken from there to Dachau. The reason he was taken to Dachau is not exactly known to me. but Dr. Skubl will be able to give information on that subject, presumably to the effect that the intention was to prevent any intervention from Austria in connection with this former member of the Austrian Government, since Himmler was of the opinion that something might be attempted by the new Austrian Government in favor of Karwinsky.
THE PRESIDENT: Your counsel can apply to call any witnesses that you want in rebuttal. He can make application for that request. It is not necessary to go into that now.
KALTENBRUNNER: Very good, Your Lordship. I should like to make the following statement regarding the other two documents. I declare their entire contents to be untrue and incorrect. Had they been put before me in the interrogations, then, as I did in other cases-I refer to the testimony of the witness Zutter-I would have made an urgent request that this witness be brought face to face with me. Regarding the witness Zutter, at least twice I have asked the prosecutor, who holds the rank of major and is sitting at the table over there next to Colonel Amen, that this witness who is making such serious statements against me be brought face to face with me. Today Prosecutor Colonel Amen was also present when I made that request at the time the question of Mauthausen was discussed. These gentlemen retired to consult with a third officer and discussed in English or not Ziereis and Zutter could be called in. Both are in this prison. All this was untrue.
THE PRESIDENT: I have already told you that your counsel can apply to call any witnesses that you wish in rebuttal.
KALTENBRUNNER: I shall ask my counsel to apply for the calling of those two witnesses.
COL. AMEN: Defendant, who was responsible for the order to kill all inmates at Mauthausen Concentration Camp shortly before the end of the war?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, may I say a few words in connection with these two documents? Only now have they been introduced into the Trial for the first time, and only now is it possible for me to discuss these serious accusations with the defendant. He also said to me that he denies the truth of these statements. I think I should be neglecting my duty as a defense counsel if I did not ask immediately that these witnesses be heard. It might be that the Prosecution later on. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, what is the point of delaying the Trial? I have just said that you might make application and you know perfectly well that application has to be made in writing. I have said twice to the witness that you, Dr. Kauffmann, his counsel, can apply for the calling of any witnesses you like in rebuttal. What is the good of delaying the Trial by getting up and making your application verbally now?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Far be it from me to cause delay, but I Invented to state here and now that I want to call these witnesses and I shall certainly make application in writing.
COL. AMEN: Did you understand the question, Defendant?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. You asked me who had given the order for the killing of the inmates at Mauthausen at the end of the war, and to that I reply that such an order is unknown to me. I gave only one order with regard to Mauthausen and that was to the effect that the entire camp and all internees were to be surrendered to the enemy without any ill-treatment. This order was dictated by me in the presence of the witness Dr. Hottl, and taken to Mauthausen by a courier-officer. I draw your attention to the statement of Dr. Hottl in which he confirms that fact. A questionnaire has been sent to a second person by my Defense Counsel. I requested a similar statement from him, but it is still unanswered.
COL. AMEN: I did not ask you about that order. I asked you about an order to kill all inmates at Mauthausen Concentration Camp shortly before the end of the war. Who was responsible for that order? Were you?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: You are acquainted with the person who tells the story, Ziereis?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I knew Ziereis.
COL. AMEN: And you had your picture taken with him and with Himmler, and this is now in evidence before this Tribunal. Do you recall that?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have not seen the picture. It was handed to the Tribunal while I was in the hospital.
COL. AMEN: Well, never mind the picture then. I ask to have the defendant shown Document Number 3870-PS, which will be Exhibit Number USA-797. Now, if the Tribunal pleases, this is a fairly long document which I do not propose to read at length, but it is one of the more important documents in the case, and so I hope that the Tribunal will read the entire statement, even though I do not bring it all out today in the interest of saving time.
THE PRESIDENT: It is a new document?
COL. AMEN: A new document, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in German?
COL. AMEN: Yes. [The document was submitted to the defendant.] This, you will note, Defendant, refers to a dying confession of Ziereis, as reported to the individual making the affidavit, and I call your attention first to the last two paragraphs on the first page, which we will read together: "There was one SS man for 10 prisoners. The highest number of prisoners was about 17,000, not including the branch camps. The highest number in Mauthausen Camp, the branch camps included, was about 95,000. The total number of prisoners who died was 65,000. The complement was made up of Totenkopf units numbering 5,000 men, comprising guards and the command staff." And, now, at the middle of the next page, the paragraph begins: "According to an order by Reichsfuehrer Himmler, I was to liquidate all prisoners on the instructions of SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner; the prisoners were to be led into the tunnels of the Bergkristall works of Gusen and only one entrance was to be left open."
KALTENBRUNNER: I have not yet found the passage.
COL. AMEN: It is in the middle of Page 2. Have you got it?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, sir.
COL. AMEN: "Then I was to blow up this entrance to the tunnels with some explosive and thus cause the death of the prisoners. I refused to carry out this order. This meant the extermination of the prisoners in the so-called 'mother camp' c Mauthausen, and in the camps Gusen I and Gusen II. Details of this are known to Herr Wolfram and to SS Obersturmfuehrer Eckermann. "A gas chamber camouflaged as a bathroom was built in Mauthausen Concentration Camp by order of the former garrison doctor, Dr. Krebsbach. Prisoners were gassed in this camouflaged bathroom. In addition to that, there ran, between Mauthausen and Gusen, a specially built automobile in which prisoners were gassed during the journey. The idea for the construction of this automobile was Dr. Wasiczki's, SS Untersturmfuehrer and pharmacist. I, myself, never put any gas into this automobile; I only drove it. But I knew that prisoners were being gassed. The gassing of the prisoners was done at the request of the physician, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Krebsbach. "Everything that we carried out was ordered by the Reich Security Main Office, Himmler or Heydrich, also by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Muller or Dr. Kaltenbrunner, the latter being Chief of the Security Police." Then, passing on to Page 5, just below the center of the page, the paragraph commencing, "In the early summer of 1943 . . . " Have you the place?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: "In the early summer of 1943, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner visited Mauthausen Concentration Camp. Camp Commandant Ziereis, Gauleiter Eigruber, Chief of the Detention Camp Bachmeyer, and several others accompanied Dr. Kaltenbrunner. I saw Dr. Kaltenbrunner and the people who accompanied him with my own eyes. According to the testimony of the 'corpse carriers' at that time, the former prisoners Albert Tiefenbacher"-whose affidavit has been read-"present address Salzburg; and Johann Polster, present address Pottendorf near Wiener-Neustadt, Austria, about 15 prisoners under detention were selected by the detention chief, Unterscharfuehrer Winkler, in order to show Dr. Kaltenbrunner three ways of extermination; by a shot in the neck, hanging, and gassing. Women whose hair had been shorn were among those executed and they were killed by shots in the neck. The above-mentioned 'corpse carriers' were present at the execution and had to carry the corpses to the crematorium. Dr. Kaltenbrunner went to the crematorium after the execution and later he went into the quarry. "Baldur van Schirach visited the Mauthausen Concentration Camp in the autumn of 1944. He, too, went to the detention building and also to the crematorium." Do you still say that you had nothing to do with the order referred to or the matters set forth in the affidavit?
KALTENBRUNNER: I maintain that most emphatically, and I want to draw your attention to the fact that you, sir, have said that this statement was taken when Ziereis was on his deathbed, but you did not say that what you read from Pages 7 and 8 does not come from Ziereis, but from Hans Marsalek, who is responsible for these statements. This Hans Marsalek whom, of course, I have never seen in my life, had been an internee in Mauthausen as were the two other witnesses. I have briefly expressed my views as to the value of a statement concerning me from a former concentration camp internee and my inability to speak face to face with this witness who now confronts me, and my application will be made through my counsel. I must ask here to be confronted with Marsalek. Marsalek cannot know of any such order. In spite of that he states that he did.
COL. AMEN: Defendant, Marsalek is merely the individual who took the dying confession from Ziereis. Do you understand that?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, I do not, because thus far it is new to me that the Prosecution were using internees from concentration camps for the interrogation of Ziereis, who had been shot in the stomach three times and was dying. I thought that such interrogations would have been carried out by a man who was legally trained and who would be in a position to attach the right value to such statements.
COL. AMEN: Well, perhaps, Defendant, if you were conducting the Prosecution, you would do it differently; but, in any event, your testimony is that everything in that affidavit which was read to you is false; is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: It is false. I have never given an order to the Mauthausen Camp with the exception of that one order which I was entitled to do on the strength of special powers and for the contents and transmission of which I have offered sufficient evidence. Mauthausen was never under my jurisdiction in any other way, and I could not issue any such orders. The Prosecution know perfectly well, and it must have been proved to them by dozens of testimonies, that I had never had any authority over Mauthausen.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, you do not seem to understand what this document is. It is an affidavit of Hans Marsalek, and Paragraph 2 shows the fact that he made the interrogation of Ziereis, who was about to die, in the presence of the commander of an armored division; and he then sets out what Ziereis said, and then he goes on to declare, in addition, what is contained in Paragraph 3; and it is perfectly obvious to the Tribunal that what is said in Paragraph 3 is not what Ziereis said, but what Marsalek said-the person who was making the affidavit.
KALTENBRUNNER: My Lord, may I say in reply that Marsalek, as an internee in the camp, was of course not in a position to know that Ziereis was never under my command. For that reason alone, it appears likely that Marsalek, when he questioned Ziereis, could not possibly know the facts of the case. I have proved to the Tribunal, and proved it to the Prosecutor, that authority was not given to me until 9 April.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know; that is only a matter of argument. I was only drawing your attention to the fact that it is perfectly obvious from the document itself that what Colonel Amen was reading was a statement of Marsalek and not a statement of Ziereis, which was the point you were making.
COL. AMEN: Defendant, do you recall having given an order to the commandant of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp on the 27th of April 1945, that at least 1,000 persons should be killed at Mauthausen each day? Is that true or false?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have never given such an order. You know . . .
COL. AMEN: Were you acquainted with SS Colonel Ziereis, the same person we have just been speaking of?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And were you acquainted with Kurt Becher or Becker, a former colonel in the SS?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: I ask to have the defendant shown Document Number 3762-PS, which will become Exhibit Number USA-798. [The document was submitted to the defendant]
KALTENBRUNNER: You asked, sir, whether I knew an SS Colonel Becker, and I answered, "No"; but the man is Kurt Becher.
COL. AMEN: That is all the better. You do know him then, do you?
KALTENBRUNNER: I know him, yes.
COL. AMEN: Very good.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, have these documents been translated into all languages?
COL. AMEN: I believe they have, every one of them, yes. No, I am told that all of them have not; some of them have. This one is in English and German, Your Lordship. We did not have time to get them translated into the Russian and French, although it is now in process.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, then it will be done?
COL. AMEN: Yes, Sir; it is being done, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
KALTENBRUNNER: May I reply to it?
THE PRESIDENT: In order that the record should be properly complete, the Tribunal would like the Prosecution to state when the translation has been done, so that the matter should be thoroughly in order.
COL. AMEN: Precisely. Defendant, we will now read this document together: "I, Kurt Becher, former SS Standartenfuehrer, born 12 September 1909, at Hamburg, declare the following under oath: "1. Between the middle of September and the middle of October 1944 I caused the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler to issue the following order, which I received in two originals, one each for SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner and Pohl, and a copy for myself: " 'By this order, which becomes immediately effective, I forbid any extermination of Jews and order that, on the contrary, care should be given to weak and sick persons. I hold you'- and here Kaltenbrunner and Pohl were meant-'personally responsible even if this order should not be strictly adhered to by subordinate offices.' "I personally took Pohl's copy to him at his offices in Berlin and left the copy for Kaltenbrunner at his office in Berlin. Therefore, in my opinion Kaltenbrunner and Pohl bear the responsibility after this date for any further killings of Jewish prisoners. "2. When visiting Mauthausen Concentration Camp on 27 April 1945 at 0900 hours, I was told in the strictest secrecy by the camp commandant, SS Standartenfuehrer Ziereis, that 'Kaltenbrunner gave me the order that at least a thousand persons would still have to die at Mauthausen each day.' "The facts mentioned above are true. These statements are made by me voluntarily and without any coercion. I have read them through, signed them, and confirmed them with my oath." Is that true or false, Defendant?
KALTENBRUNNER: In part it is correct and in part it is not. I shall explain it sentence by sentence.
COL. AMEN: No, suppose you simply tell us what you claim to be false, because we must get on with this.
KALTENBRUNNER: I quite believe that you want to save time, but this is a question of establishing my guilt or my innocence and to do that I must be given an opportunity to make a statement in detail. Otherwise neither you nor the Tribunal would know the truth; and that is what we want here, I hope. I am glad that this witness, Becher, was found and that this statement is available, because it proves, first that in September or October 1944 Himmler was forced to issue this order-that same Himmler about whom it has been definitely established that since 1939 or 1940 he had become guilty of the crime of killing Jews on the largest scale. And now we must find out why in September or October Himmler had given such an order. Before I had seen this document I stated yesterday and today that this order was issued by Hitler on my representations, and obviously this order from Himmler is based on another order which he received from Hitler. Secondly, it is clear to me that Himmler gave such an order to Pohl as the person responsible for those concentration camps in which Jews were kept; and thirdly, that he has informed me, Kaltenbrunner, of this as the person who opposed Himmler. As to Becher, I have to go farther back. Through this man Becher Himmler did the worst things which could possibly be done and brought to light here. Through Becher and the Joint Committee in Hungary and Switzerland he released Jews in exchange, first, for war equipment, then secondly, for raw material, and thirdly, for foreign currency. I heard about this through the intelligence service and immediately attempted to stop this, not through Himmler because I would have failed but through Hitler. At that moment any personal credit of Himmler with Hitler was undermined, for this action might have changed the reputation of the Reich abroad in the most serious manner.
KALTENBRUNNER: At the same time my efforts in connection with Burckhardt had already been going on, and now you understand why the witness Schellenberg stated that Himmler had said to him, "I am alarmed; now Kaltenbrunner has got me under his thumb." This means that Kaltenbrunner had completely revealed all the things Himmler was doing in Hungary and had told Hitler about it. By this order Himmler attempted to camouflage it and to get out of the whole thing by pretending that the responsibility rested on Kaltenbrunner and Pohl anyhow. Even according to this document the responsibility rested on Himmler and Pohl, but Kaltenbrunner had to be included and be told about it because otherwise he might bring the subject up with Hitler any day. That is the sense of the document. This witness, Becher, is now in Nuremberg. I beg absolutely to be confronted with him here. I am quite able to prove to the public with the help of this witness how, starting with the transfer of the so-called Weiss A.G. in Hungary up to that day, Himmler, with Pohl and Becher and the two committees in Hungary and Switzerland were running this business. And I can prove how I fought against it. There is yet another accusation in this document, that on 27 April I am supposed to have given a strictly secret order to Ziereis that 1,000 Jews had to be exterminated in Mauthausen every day. I ask you to have the witness Hottl, who is also here, called in immediately, so that I may ask him on what day I dictated and sent by courier-officer to Mauthausen the order that the entire camp with all its inmates be surrendered to the enemy. This witness will confirm to you that this order was given several days before 27 April and that I could not have given orders to the contrary on 27 April. I ask you, sir, not to take me unawares and maneuver me into a position where I might go to pieces. I shall not break down. I swear to you and I have sworn that I want to help you establish the truth.
COL. AMEN: Defendant, you have heard evidence at this Trial with respect to the meaning of the phrase "special treatment," have you not? Have you heard that in this courtroom?
KALTENBRUNNER: The expression "special treatment" has been used by my interrogators several times every day, yes.
COL. AMEN: You know what it means?
KALTENBRUNNER: It can only be assumed, although I cannot give an accurate explanation, that this was a death sentence, not imposed by a public court but by an order of Himmler's.
COLT AMEN: Well, the Defendant Keitel testified that, I think, it was a matter of common knowledge. Have you not at all times known what was meant by "special treatment"? "Yes" or "no," please.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I have told you; an order from Himmler-I am referring to Hitler's order of 1941, therefore also an order from Hitler-that executions should be carried out without legal procedure.
COL. AMEN: Did you ever discuss with Gruppenfuehrer Muller of Amt IV the application of "special treatment" to certain individuals? "Yes" or "no," please.
KALTENBRUNNER: No; I know that the witness Schellenberg said . . .
COL. AMEN: I ask to have the defendant shown Document Number 3839-PS which will become Exhibit Number USA-99. By the way, were you acquainted with Joseph Spacil?
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question.
COL. AMEN: Were you acquainted with Joseph Spacil?
KALTENBRUNNER: Spassel? No.
COL. AMEN: He is the person who makes the affidavit now before you.
KALTENBRUNNER: The name which is mentioned here is Joseph Spacil, and that man I know, yes.
COL. AMEN: Now, will you look at the center of the first page, a paragraph commencing "In regard to 'special treatment' ... " Have you the place?
KALTENBRUNNER: Not yet, no. In order to understand the document I shall have to read all of it.
COL. AMEN: Well, if you have to read all of these documents, Defendant, we would never get through, because the first part has nothing to do with the part which I am interested in or with you.
KALTENBRUNNER: I beg your pardon, sir, I am sure that you are interested in expediting the procedure as far as possible as we defendants are anxious not to delay the proceedings; but it is necessary for my defense that I should at least be allowed to read a document on which I have to make a statement.
COL. AMEN: But, Defendant, your lawyer is receiving copies of all these documents, and I am sure that whatever is there, which should be brought out on your behalf, he will see to it that it will be brought out at the proper time, which will be after I get through asking you these questions. Is that not satisfactory?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, that is not enough for me. I must know, at any rate, What is contained in that document, since you are asking me to make a statement on it now.
COL. AMEN: Well, go ahead and read it then.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, not only your own counsel will look after your interests, but the Tribunal will look after your interests; and you must answer the question, please.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Very well. Now let us read along in the center of the page, commencing with: "In regard to 'special treatment' I have the following knowledge: "On occasion of meetings of the office chiefs, Gruppenfuehrer Muller frequently consulted Kaltenbrunner as to whether this or that case should be specially treated or if 'special treatment' was to be considered. The following is an example of how the conversation went: "Muller: Case Obergruppenfuehrer B. please, 'special treatment' or not? "Kaltenbrunner: Yes, or submit it to the Reichsfuehrer SS for decision. "Or: "Muller: Obergruppenfuehrer, no answer has arrived from the Reichsfuehrer SS in regard to 'special treatment' for Case A. "Kaltenbrunner: Ask once more. "Or: "Muller handed a paper to Kaltenbrunner and asked for instructions, as described above. "When Muller had such a conversation with Kaltenbrunner, he only mentioned the initials, so that the persons present at the table never knew who was involved." And then the last two paragraphs: "Both Muller and Kaltenbrunner proposed in my presence 'special treatment' or submission to the Reichsfuehrer SS for approval of 'special treatment' for certain cases which I cannot specify in detail. I estimate that In approximately 50 percent of the cases special treatment' was approved." Are the contents of that affidavit true or false, Defendant?