dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SAUTER: That was the end of March 1945?
VON SCHIRACH: That was the end of March 1945, on the occasion when authority to apply martial law was granted to the Statthalter of the Ostmark.
DR. SAUTER: Therefore, immediately before the collapse?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with your activities in Vienna there is also an accusation, Witness, brought against you by the Prosecution, to the effect that you participated in the persecution of the Church. This accusation is supported exclusively as far as I can see by Document Number R-146. I repeat, R-146, which has already been submitted by the Prosecution. This, Witness, is a letter addressed by the witness, Dr. Lammers, who has been heard before the Tribunal, to the Reich Minister of the Interior, dated 14 March 1941, and further, a circular from Bormann, addressed to all the Gauleiter, dated 20 March 1941. I should like to hear your comments on both of these letters, especially since Dr. Lammers' letter speaks of property belonging to enemies of the people and the state, whereas in Bormann's circular of 20 March 1941 mention is made of the confiscation of Church property-monastic property- et cetera . Do you know what led to these letters, and what part did you yourself play in the matter?
VON SCHIRACH: The document written by Dr. Lammers is correct. Bormann's covering letter referred to Church property; I referred to property belonging to enemies of the people and the State, for that was a technical expression at the time. I should like to mention in this matter that when I came to Vienna in 1940 the confiscation of such property was already in full swing; an argument had arisen on the subject between the Gauleiter and the Reich Minister for Finance. The Reich Minister for Finance wanted the confiscated property taken over by the Reich, while I considered that This property should remain fundamentally the possession of the Gaue. So far as I can remember, I was involved in this question only through the following confiscations: Prince Schwarzenberg possessed property, the greater part of which lay in the region of the Upper Danube; the smaller part was the famous Vienna Palace. Now this Prince Schwarzenberg had refused, in the presence of some German consul general, or consul abroad, to return to Germany and serve in the Army. Thereupon his property was confiscated. In the interest of the Reich I endeavored to maintain this property for the Vienna Reich Gau and to prevent it from passing over to the Reich. I have no files before me, so I cannot from memory give you any information about other, similar actions. I am not responsible for confiscations in the other Austrian Gaue. But I may state one thing here-namely, that I put an end to all confiscations throughout the entire Reich. When, through an intermediary, women from an Austrian convent appealed to me for help, I asked my father-in-law to act behind Bormann's back and explain to Hitler the disastrous political effects which these confiscations would have and to beg him to issue a direct order for their suppression. This was achieved, and when the order was put through, Bormann turned against my father-in-law as well. From then on I never had any further opportunity to bring this question to the Fuehrer's notice.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, you have not, so far, quite explained your attitude toward Dr. Lammers' letter of 14 March 1941. To refresh your memory I should like to read out the first sentence of that letter. This letter of Lammers' dated 14 March 1941, Document Number R-146, states, and I quote: "The Reichsstatthalter and Gauleiter Von Schirach, together with Dr. Jury and Eigruber, has recently complained to the Fuehrer that the Reich Minister for Finance is still of the opinion that the seizure of property belonging to enemies of the state and people should be effected in favor of the Reich, and not in favor of the Reich Gau." Thus runs the quotation. And because of this incident the Prosecution have accused you of participating in the persecution of the Church in Vienna. I must request you to tell us what you really did do in the matter.
VON SCHIRACH: Well, the Church in Vienna had actually been persecuted under my predecessor, Buerckel, and this can be proved. I mentioned yesterday the demonstrations before the Archbishop's Palace. But from the day of my arrival in Vienna, anti-Church demonstrations in the nature of a political agitation no longer took place. Immediately upon my arrival I gathered all the political officials and all my other colleagues of the Gau and demanded that they should never, either in writing or by word of mouth, express anything likely to offend the religious sentiments of other people. I believe that this is a fact which was gratefully noted by the entire population of Vienna. From that day on there were no further actions against the Church. Just how much Church property, though, was called in in compliance with the law for special war contributions, a law which likewise applied to other property-I cannot tell you without documentary evidence.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, we can see from this document that you must have spoken on the subject to Hitler personally...
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: . . . because it states that the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter Von Schirach complained to Hitler on the subject. You have not said anything to us about that so far.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I myself, during a visit by Hitler to Vienna where he signed a southeast pact, told him I was of the opinion that the property confiscated belonged to the Gaue and not to the Reich. That was my point of view and one which I believed to be entirely correct.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Indictment further accuses you of having had some kind of connection with the SS, thereby promoting the SS, et cetera . Were you yourself ever a member of the SS?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did Himmler, the leader of the SS, have any influence over the youth organizations and over the education of the young people?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SAUTER: Were the replacements in the SS, especially in the SS Leadership Corps, recruited from the HJ, and if so, why?
VON SCHIRACH: The replacements in all the leadership corps in Germany were recruited from the youth. Our youth organization was a state institution. You now are probably referring to an agreement which I had with Himmler on the patrol services?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, that too plays a part in this connection.
VON SCHIRACH: Agreements of that sort...
DR. SAUTER: Just one more moment, Herr Von Schirach. This agreement is entered in the documents of the Prosecution as Number 2396-PS. I repeat 2396-PS, in which a special statement occurs-and I should appreciate your comments on the subject-to the effect that the SS received their replacements from the patrol service of the HJ, allegedly by an agreement of October 1938. Please tell us about it and explain to us what actually was this patrol service.
VON SCHIRACH: The patrol service was one of the special units of the HJ which I forgot to mention yesterday. The patrol service was a youth service for keeping order. It consisted of outstandingly decent lads who had no police duties-I now refer to documentary reports which I procured-but who had to supervise the general behavior of the young people, examine their uniforms, control the visits of the boys to the taverns; and it was their duty to inspect the HJ hostels for cleanliness and neatness, to supervise the hiking expeditions of the young people and the youth hostelries in the country. They stood guard and were on order duty at mass meetings and demonstrations. They watched over encampments and accompanied the convoys. They were employed in the search for youths who were lost. They gave advice to traveling youth, attended to station service, were supposed to protect young people from criminal elements, and, above all, to protect national property-that is, woods, fields, for instance-and to see that they were safe from fires, et cetera . Since Himmler might make trouble for this section of the youth organization, I was interested in having the Police recognize my patrol service; for in my idea of the State youth as a youth state, the Police should not be employed against the youth, but these young people should keep order among themselves. That this principle was a sound one can be judged from the immense decline in juvenile delinquency from 1933 up to the outbreak of the war.
DR. SAUTER: Witness . . .
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, I have not yet finished. After this agreement...
THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Dr. Sauter, we have heard enough about this unit. The whole point of the document was that they were used for recruiting for the SS, wasn't it? That is the complaint of the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, the patrol service . . .
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard at considerable length the description of what they did in the way of the protection of the youth. Surely we have heard enough about that.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, these so-called special units were specially mentioned by the Prosecution as a means for preparation for war-that is, as a means for the military training of the young people. In this connection all these special units were mentioned, and therefore we considered it necessary that the defendant inform you what this patrol service really was. But I can, Mr. President, set this topic aside immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard what they were at some considerable length.
DR. SAUTER: Very well. Witness, from which departments did the SS mainly recruit its leader replacements?
VON SCHIRACH: In order to assure its leader replacements, the SS founded its own training schools which were entirely outside my influence. They were the so-called National Socialist Training Institutes.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with the SS, the Prosecution, Witness, mentioned a further agreement between you and Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, an agreement of December 1938, submitted as Document Number 2567-PS, the so-called "Landdienst" of the HJ. Why was this agreement concluded with the Reichsfuehrer SS?
VON SCHIRACH: It is very hard to give a brief answer. The Reichsfuehrer SS was a farmer with an agronomical degree. In his student days he had belonged to the so-called "Artaman Movement," whose program it was to prevent the flight from the land, and he was particularly keen to collaborate within the SS with the farm labor service groups of the HJ who were doing the same work as the "Artaman" groups in the past. In conclusion, I should like to say about the "Landdienst" and the patrol service, that no coercion was ever brought to bear on the young people to enter the SS. Any lad from the patrol service was, of course, free to become a member of the SA or of the NSKK-and frequently did so -- or else become a political leader just like any other boy from the farm labor service or the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Indictment states, inter alia , that a directive was addressed to the political leaders demanding that the Hitler Youth Leaders-that is, the leaders subordinate to you- he employed on their staffs. What can you say to that?
VON SCHIRACH: I can only say in reply that this is one of many attempts by the Party Chancellery to bring the Youth Leadership into the political leadership. The practical result of the directive was that a number of youth leaders were given insignificant duties as adjutants. They complained to me, and I withdrew them from these posts. It is a historical fact that in Germany there was no real flow of people from the youth organization into the political leadership. I can personally name those youth leaders who came into the political leadership, there were so few of them.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Soviet Prosecution have submitted a document, Document Number USSR-6, which is a report from the Lemberg Commission. Herein the following fact is mentioned. A French woman, Ida Vasseau, the head of an asylum for old people in Lemberg, testified in writing-I am only quoting the gist of the affidavit-that ghetto children were handed over as presents to the Hitler Youth and that these children were then used as living targets by the HJ for their drill practice. In all the time that you were active in the Reich Youth Leadership, did you ever hear of such misdemeanors or excesses?
VON SCHIRACH: No. We are dealing here with the first and, so far, the only accusation of crimes committed by the HJ which has been brought to my notice. There were no HJ commandos, either in the East or in the West, capable of committing such crimes. I consider the statements in this affidavit as absolutely untrue, and that is all I can say on the matter.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the course of his examination your fellow-Defendant, Dr. Schacht, mentioned that a suggestion had been made in his time to Mr. Eden, to divest the SS, the SA, and the HJ of their military character if the other powers would consent to disarm. What do you know of such proposals or negotiations?
VON SCHIRACH: I know of no such offer, as far as the Hitler Youth is concerned. I consider it entirely out of the question that any such offer could have been received by Mr. Eden regarding the HJ; for Hitler himself did not consider the HJ as a military or even a semimilitary organization. The disarming of the HJ could factually never have taken place since the only weapon carried by the Hitler Youth was the camping knife, the equivalent of a Boy Scout's bowie knife of the Jungvolk Pimpfe (boys of 10-14 years of age).
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Prosecution further charge that you, in 1933, concluded an agreement with the VDA-an abbreviation for the "Verein fuer das Deutschtum im Ausland." Is that true? And what was your intention in concluding this agreement?
VON SCHIRACH: That is true. I do not wish to express an opinion on the aims and objects of the VDA. I believe that counsel for the Defendant Frick has already done so. I refer to these statements and merely state that it was my perfectly natural wish to incorporate in the HJ the numerically powerful group of lads belonging to the VDA. The majority of these youths, moreover, had graduated from the public schools, and it was my second intention to place some of my collaborators on the board of the VDA so as to be currently informed about the young people abroad.
DR. SAUTER: The Prosecution further accuse you of having founded the so-called Adolf Hitler Schools where the training of young leaders for the National Socialist State and for the Party was carried out. What have you to say to this accusation?
VON SCHIRACH: There is a lot that I could say about that accusation, but I shall limit myself to essential remarks only. The Adolf Hitler Schools were founded as scholastic units of the HJ. They were founded with the means which Dr. Ley placed at my disposal when I told him of my plans for the training I had envisaged. These schools were not intended to Main leaders for the Party exclusively but served to prepare the youth for all the professions. I myself often talked to these boys on their graduation and I always told them "You can choose any profession you like. Your training in this school carries no obligation, either moral or otherwise, to become a political leader." De facto , relatively few political leaders emerged from the Adolf Hitler Schools. Very many of the boys became doctors, officials, et cetera . I cannot quote any figures from memory, but the communications I have received from the young people, including statements from teachers in the Adolf Hitler Schools, show their attitude towards this point of the Indictment. And I should like to ask that at least 50 to 60 of these numerous affidavits, which confirm all that I have said, be submitted in support of my declarations.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, one more question on a different topic. Did you ever receive any so-called endowment funds, or anything of that kind, from Hitler or from other sources?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I never received any endowment funds.
DR. SAUTER: Did you ever receive gifts in kind, such as valuable paintings or other costly gifts?
VON SCHIRACH: The only thing Hitler ever gave me was his photograph on the occasion of my thirtieth birthday.
DR. SAUTER: His photograph-presumably with a few words of dedication?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUCIER: Now I have a few final, very brief questions to ask you-they refer to the last days of your activities in Vienna. You have already mentioned, in connection with Himmler's visit to Vienna at the end of March 1945, that you had at that time received from Himmler the so-called authority for the proclamation of martial law. If I have understood you correctly, you, in your function of Reich Defense Commissioner, were authorized to convene a drumhead court martial?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, and that made me lord of life and death.
DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, this drumhead court martial was only supposed to pass death sentences?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did you ever convene this drumhead court martial in Vienna, and did you appoint the members?
VON SCHIRACH: I appointed the members of the court martial An outstanding lawyer was the president. I never convened the drumhead court martial and I never once imposed a death sentence. If I remember rightly, the military court martial of the local military commandant passed four death sentences on four military traitors. My court martial never met and never passed a death sentence.
DR. SAUTER: Had you any connection with the military drumhead court martial?
VON SCHIRACH: No. The Vienna commandant was, of course, president of that particular court, and I was the head of court martial "Schirach."
DR. SAUTER: You said you had a distinguished lawyer as your president? ~
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What was his profession?
VON SCHIRACH: I think he was president of a district court, or something of the kind. I cannot quite remember; I have forgotten.
DR. SAUTER: So he was an official Viennese judge?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did you give the order, in Vienna, to have certain vitally important factories either blown up or destroyed as so often happened in other Gaue, as for instance, here in Nuremberg?
VON SCHIRACH: No. It has escaped my knowledge, that much I must admit, how far crippling and destructive measures were executed in the military and armament sectors, pursuant to direct instructions from the Reich Government. For instance, the dynamiting of bridges was a military precaution. The order could never have emanated from me. Hitler reserved for himself the right to issue the orders for blowing up the bridges over the Danube. The Chief of Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic, prior to giving the order for blowing up these bridges, had to consult the Fuehrer's headquarters by telephone.
DR. SAUTER: When did you yourself leave Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: I left Gau Vienna after the withdrawal of the last troops from the city and after the command post of the 2d corps of the 6th SS Panzer Army had been moved to the region of the Lower Danube.
DR. SAUTER: When was that?
VON SCHIRACH: That was-sorry, I cannot remember the date offhand. It was toward the end of the battle for Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: And now I have one last question to ask you. You know that the order went out from the Party Leadership and from circles of the Reich Chancellery to stage a "Werewolf" movement for fighting the advancing troops. What was your attitude towards this movement?
VON SCHIRACH: I prohibited any Werewolf organization in my Gau, but to avoid misunderstandings I must tell you that there was a youth battalion, a Volksturm battalion, which bore the name of "Werewolf," but there was no Werewolf unit. I invariably refused, both for the young people and the adults, permission to participate in any form of combat contrary to the decrees of international law.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendants' counsel want to ask any questions?
DR. ALFRED THOMA (Counsel for Defendant Rosenberg): Witness, what was the attitude of Rosenberg, as the Fuehrer's Plenipotentiary for the Ideological Education of the Party, toward the Reich Youth Leadership?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that the Chief of the Department for Ideological Education in the Reich Youth Leadership had to attend, on an average, two, perhaps three, meetings per annum, also attended by educational leaders from other Party organizations. These meetings took place under the chairmanship of Reichsleiter Rosenberg. On these occasions, as I have been told by the chief of the department, Rosenberg was wont to lay down general instructions and directives and ask for reports on the educational work of the individual organizations.
DR. THOMA: Did Rosenberg select specific subjects to be lectured on at these meetings?
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know for certain. At these meetings of the Youth Leadership representatives, at which Rosenberg spoke once a year, he usually selected educational themes, themes dealing with character training. He would, for instance, speak about solitude and comradeship and, as far as I remember, about personality, honor, et cetera .
DR. THOMA: Did Rosenberg at these meetings mention the Jewish problem and the confessional question?
VON SCHIRACH: During these Youth Leadership sessions he never made any speeches against the Jews, nor did he, as far as I can remember, ever touch on the subject of the confession-at least, not in my presence. I usually heard him speak on subjects such as I have just enumerated.
DR.THOMA: Witness, did you read Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century ? And if so, when?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I began to read it, but I did not read the whole book.
DR. THOMA: Did this Rosenberg's Myth make any impression on the young people or did other leaders have experiences similar to your own?
VON SCHIRACH: The youth leaders certainly did not read the Myth of the Twentieth Century .
DR. THOMA: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defendant's counsel want to ask questions? Or perhaps we had better adjourn now. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, you have already stated in connection with Sauckel's directive regarding employment of labor that you were flooded with such directives. Were these directives carried out?
VON SCHIRACH: As far as my own information goes, I can confirm that. I had the impression that the functionaries of the labor employment administration felt that they had to keep strictly to Sauckel's orders, and in those industrial plants which I visited I was able to ascertain that the requirements stated in the directives were in fact fulfilled.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Sauckel himself take steps to insure that these things were carried out?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I remember that Sauckel once came to Vienna-I think in 1943-and that on that occasion he addressed all his labor employment functionaries and repeated orally everything which he had stated in his directives. He spoke of the foreign workers in particular, demanding just treatment for them; and I remember that on this occasion he even spoke of putting them on the same footing as German workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have a few more questions about the political leaders. How were political leaders on the Gauleiter level informed? Did the Gauleiter have individual interviews with the Fuehrer, especially in connection with the Gauleiter assemblies?
VON SCHIRACH: No. After the Gauleiter assemblies the Fuehrer always held forth in a comparatively large circle just as he did in his speeches. Interviews in the real sense of the word did not exist. He always made speeches. Fixed dates on which Gauleiter could have interviews with Hitler almost ceased to exist once the war had begun.
DR.SERVATIUS: Could not a Gauleiter approach Hitler personally and ask for an interview?