dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SAUCKEL: They were not obliged to carry them out; and for that very reason I sent out, and in a very emphatic form, that manifesto which was mentioned yesterday. As, however, I myself had no supervision over the executive authorities, I had to leave it to the various offices to take these instructions into consideration.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was the number of workers recruited in the various territories in that manner very large?
SAUCKEL: There were certainly very large numbers of them.
DR. SERVATIUS: There were also Reich offices which dealt with the question of manpower. What about the deportations carried out by Himmler? Did you have any connection with those?
SAUCKEL: With reference to the question of these deportations, I can only say that I did not have the least thing to do with them. I never agreed-I never could have agreed, in view of my own outlook, my development, and my life-I could not have agreed to the use of prisoners or convicts for work in that manner. That was absolutely foreign to my nature. I also have the firm conviction that, on account of my forcible statements and measures, I was intentionally kept uninformed about the whole matter, because it was quite contrary to my own views on work and on workers. I said very often-and it can be seen in documents here-that I wanted to win the co-operation of the foreign workers for Germany and for the German way of life, and I did not want to alienate them.
DR. SERVATIUS: These then were the various offices which, apart from you, had to do with recruitment of workers?
SAUCKEL: May I make a short statement in that respect? I heard the word "deportation" a few times in Germany and I always rejected the idea very emphatically because I knew nothing about such operations. According to the use of the word in the German language I understand "deportation" to mean the sending away of prisoners and of people who have committed some punishable act against the State. I never carried out deportations because of my own views on the ethics of work. On the contrary, I gave the workers recruited through my office-and that was the point on which I finally obtained Hitler's consent at the beginning of my job, and it was not an easy matter-I gave all foreign workers legal contracts, whether they came voluntarily or through German labor conscription. They should and must receive the same treatment, the same pay, and the same food as the German workers. That is why I rejected the idea of deportation in my methods and my program. I can testify here with a clear conscience that I had nothing at all to do with those deportations, the terrible extent of which I learned only here.
DR. SERVATIUS: You have pointed out Repeatedly that this labor had to be brought to Germany under all circumstances, that one had to proceed ruthlessly, that it was an absolute necessity to get the workers. Does that not show that you agreed with such measures?
SAUCKEL: I should like to point out the following distinction: My directives and instructions can be clearly seen in numerous documents. I could issue only these because I had no executive power and no machinery of my own. All these directives, from the very beginning, prescribe legally correct and just treatment. It is true, however, that I used the words "under all circumstances" when communicating with German offices-the Fuehrer himself had impressed these words on me-and I used the word "ruthlessly," not with respect to the treatment of workers but with respect to the many arguments, disputes, arbitrary acts, and individual desires which the German offices, with which I had to contend fiercely, had among themselves and against me. For the most part they did not understand the importance of the allocation of labor as an economic measure in time of war. The military authorities, the army commanders, very often told me, for instance, that it was nonsense to bring these people to Germany. There was the Vlassov Army under the Russian general of that name, and the military authorities wanted these Russian workers to join the Vlassov Army. I opposed that. I did not consider it right, nor did I consider it sufficiently reliable. These were the things against which I had to proceed ruthlessly in my dealings with the German administration in those territories.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were there other circumstances, too, which led to the transportation of people to Germany?
SAUCKEL: Yes, there were other circumstances which, however, were not connected directly but indirectly with the allocation of labor, and they often took me by surprise; for example, the evacuation of military zones, which frequently had to be carried through at a moment's notice or after only a very short time of preparation. And when such an evacuation had been carried out it was the task of the local labor offices to put the evacuated population to work in areas in the rear or to bring to Germany such workers as could be used there. This sort of labor allocation entailed, of course, considerable difficulties for me. There were families and children among the evacuated people; and they, naturally, had also to be provided with shelter. It was often the very natural wish of the Russian fathers and mothers to take their children with them. That happened, not because I wanted it, but because it was unavoidable.
DR. SERVATIUS: And did you always use this labor, or only occasionally?
SAUCKEL: To a large extent those people were used by the local authorities in those territories and put into agriculture, industry, railroads, bridge building, and so on.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you have anything to do with resettlement?
SAUCKEL: I never had anything to do with resettlement. By a decree of the Fuehrer that task was expressly delegated to the Reichsfuehrer SS.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Rosenberg not report to you about bad conditions which existed in his sphere?
SAUCKEL: Yes. I had about four conversations with Rosenberg, at his request; and he told me about the bad conditions. There was no doubt on my part that such conditions were to be utterly condemned.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did he speak about Koch?
SAUCKEL: The Reichskommissariat Ukraine was mainly involved. There were considerable differences between the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, Rosenberg, and Reich Commissioner Koch.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were you in a position to take measures against Koch?
SAUCKEL: Koch was not subordinate to me either directly or indirectly. I could not give him any instructions in such matters. I let him know from the outset that I could not possibly agree with such methods as I had heard about, to some extent through Rosenberg, although I could not prove them. Koch was of the opinion-and he explained that in his letters to Rosenberg-that in his territory he was the sole authority. He also pointed that out to me.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Rosenberg not think the cause for these conditions was that your demands were too high?
SAUCKEL: I also spoke to Herr Rosenberg about that. I personally was of the opinion that, if the demands could be divided up and orderly recruitment and conscription could take place, it was quite possible to fill the quotas. After all, I had orders and instructions from the Fuehrer and the Central Planning Board.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you ever talk about the methods which should be used?
SAUCKEL: The methods that should be used were not only frequently discussed between us, but I published them in many very clear directives. I even went so far as to issue and distribute my manifesto over the head of this higher authority to the subordinate offices so that they could be guided by it. I have to point out emphatically, however, that these were incidents which occurred for the most part before my directives came into effect and before my appointment.
DR. SERVATIUS: I want to refer you to Document Number 018-PS. That is in the "Slave Labor Brief," Page 10.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not Page 10. It is Number 10.
DR. SERVATIUS: It is Exhibit Number USA-186. In the English "Slave Labor" Book it is Document 10. It is a letter of 21 December 1942. [The document was handed to the defendant.] If you go through that document, you will see that Rosenberg complains about the methods used by your agents and collaborators. What are these offices for which you are being made responsible here?
SAUCKEL: There is an error in this letter on the part of Herr Rosenberg, because it was not I who had offices there but the Reich Commissioner.
DR. SERVATIUS: In other words you are saying that he addressed himself to the wrong person?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: Then will you lay that document aside.
SAUCKEL: Rosenberg writes on Page 2, "I empowered the Reich Commissioner for the Ukraine..."
DR. SERVATIUS: You assume, therefore, that the writer of this letter did not himself know exactly who the authorities in his territory were?
SAUCKEL: Yes, that was quite possible, because I myself had only been in office a short time.
DR. SERVATIUS: What did you do as a result of the complaint which Rosenberg made? Did you do anything at all?
SAUCKEL: After receiving Rosenberg's letter I had a discussion with him immediately. As it was shortly before Christmas, 21 December 1942, I called by telegram an official meeting at Weimar for 6 January, to which representatives of the respective offices in the East were invited. I also invited Reich Minister Rosenberg to that meeting. And at that conference these officials were again told clearly and unmistakably that it was their duty to use correct and legal methods.
DR. SERVATIUS: In that connection I would like to refer to Document Number Sauckel-82. It is in the Sauckel Document Book Number 3, Page 207. I submit the handbook itself, which contains a number of documents for judicial notice. I quote one sentence from the speech on the principles of recruiting which Sauckel made there before 800 people who were employed in the Allocation of Labor program.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 800?
DR. SERVATIUS: Page 206.
THE PRESIDENT: It is 8,000 in my copy. Isn't it 8,000?
DR. SERVATIUS: The third book, Page 206, Document Number 82.
THE PRESIDENT: I am looking at Document Number 82. I thought you said 800 men were employed. I am looking at the beginning of Document 82.
DR. SERVATIUS: It begins on Page 204. He spoke before 800 people, not 8,000. It should be 800. That is a mistake in the translation of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. SERVATIUS: The following is stated here: "Principles of our recruiting: "1) Where the voluntary method fails (and experience shows that it fails everywhere) compulsory service takes its place...."-I skip a few sentences. "It is bitter to tear people from their homes, from their children. But we did not want the war. The German child who loses its father at the front, the German wife who mourns her husband killed in battle, suffer far more. Let us disclaim every false sentiment now."
THE PRESIDENT: You have left out some of the document, have you not?
DR. SERVATIUS: I did not quite understand.
THE PRESIDENT: You have left out some of the document.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, I omitted some sentences and I said so. But I can read all of it.
THE PRESIDENT: I only mean on Page 206. I didn't mean the whole document. On Page 206 you have just skipped two sentences.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have four sentences there. I will read them again: "Where the voluntary method fails, compulsory service takes its place." Then I omitted two sentences, which I shall now read: "This is the iron law for the Allocation of Labor for 1943. In a few weeks from now there must no longer be any occupied territory in which compulsory service for Germany is not the most natural thing in the world."
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you also leave out the words "experience shows that it fails everywhere"?
DR. SERVATIUS: I read that the first time; I wanted to save time. "We are going to discard the last remnants of our soft talk about humanitarian ideals. Every additional gun which we procure brings us a minute closer to victory. It is bitter to tear people from their homes, from their children. But we did not want the war. The German child who loses its father at the front, the German wife who mourns her husband killed in battle, suffer far more. Let us disclaim every false sentiment now. "Here we must be guided by the realization that in the long run a high output can be demanded of foreign workers only if they are satisfied with their lot. I will not tolerate men being treated badly. "3) Under no circumstances are you, as the recruiting commission abroad, permitted to promise things which according to the directives and regulations issued are not possible and cannot be carried out on account of the war. It is much better to introduce labor conscription and say, 'You must take this upon yourselves and in return you will enjoy the rights of the workers employed in Germany.' Anyone who works in Germany has rights in Germany, even if he is a Bolshevist. We shall watch very carefully to insure that the German name be not sullied. You can demand of me any protection in your field of work, but none for any crimes. The name of our nation is holy. For the first time in German history you must represent for the Reich the principles of German labor. Be conscious of that at all times." [Turning to the defendant.] Apart from the information which you received from Rosenberg, did you receive any other reports concerning recruiting methods?
SAUCKEL: Apart from the information from Rosenberg and his letters of that time, I did not receive any other direct complaints. But I had issued emphatic orders that any complaints received by my of flee were to be forwarded immediately to the competent Reich authorities for investigation, punishment, and the remedying of the grievances. I should like to state this: My office received a great many complaints which concerned me; but they were complaints about insufficient numbers of workers provided by me. It was my duty to correct this. For the correction of inadequacies in administration, for eliminating unjust measures in various fields or various agencies, I could not be competent, as the Reich authorities themselves were competent in that respect.
DR. SERVATIUS: But it should have been of great interest to you what happened there. Did you not hear anything of these incidents? Was nothing reported to you?
SAUCKEL: That I was interested from a humane and personal point of view can be seen from the fact that I was concerned about these things, although they did not come within my office.
DR. SERVATIUS: But you spoke here about one case in which it was reported to you that a cinema had been surrounded. Perhaps you remember that case?
SAUCKEL: When on a visit to Field Marshal Kluge, I heard from him that he had been informed that in the area of his army, or army group, a cinema had been surrounded and the people attending the cinema had been brought to Germany to work. I immediately had that case most carefully investigated, and the investigation took 3 months. Witnesses will be able to testify to that when they appear here. The result of the investigation was the following: It was not a case of labor recruitment for Germany. A construction unit near Rovno was celebrating in that cinema the end of one of its tasks; and in the middle of that celebration the order was received that this unit had to be put on a new job, a different place of work. The contractor thereupon interrupted the celebration in a very drastic way by having the immediate transport of these workers carried out by a force of police. That, of course, had nothing to do with my work and my organization; but it took me 3 months to discover the true facts of this complaint by Field Marshal Kluge. In every case where such complaints came to my attention I investigated and dealt with them and condemned them, because they did not help me.
DR. SERVATIUS: We will leave this matter of recruitment now and turn to the question of the transportation of these people to Germany. Who was responsible for their transportation?
SAUCKEL: For transportation the German Reichsbahn and the authorities designated in my Directive Number Regional offices and regional labor departments-were responsible.' Immediately on assuming my office I had a detailed discussion with Dr. Dorpmuller, Reich Minister of Transport; his state secretary, Dr. Ganzenmuller; and before him Dr. Kleinmuller; and it was agreed that the transportation of workers to Germany should be carried out in an unobjectionable manner; that the transport trains should be supplied with food for the duration of the journey; that, if Russians were included in these transports, the cars should under no circumstances be overcrowded; and that, if at all possible, passenger coaches should be used for these transports. We agreed on this, though the Reich Minister of Transport said that he could not be expected to provide the people with better transport than the German soldiers had; still, he could at least guarantee that the cars would not be overcrowded.
DR. SERVATIUS: You have seen the Molotov report, that is Exhibit Number USSR-51. You know its contents, describing the conditions of these transports, saying that the cars were overcrowded, that the dying were thrown out and left lying oh the tracks, and that newly born children died immediately. Were such conditions reported to you, or did you hear of them in your official position?
SAUCKEL: Such incidents were not reported to me in my official position, and they could not possibly have referred to worker transports of my office. ,
DR. SERVATIUS: What kind of transports could they have been then?
SAUCKEL: As far as I could determine from the proceedings here, they must have been transports of inmates of concentration camps who were being evacuated. I do not know for certain; but I cannot explain it otherwise because I would not tolerate such conditions under any circumstances, nor did I hear about them. Such things were of no advantage to us.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is that document, USSR-51?
DR. SERVATIUS: USSR-51 is the official report which I received in printed form. I have a printed German copy. I assume that it has been submitted to the Tribunal already. If not, I will obtain it and submit it myself.
THE PRESIDENT: If it has got the Number USSR-51, it must have been submitted to the Tribunal. That is the exhibit number. I wonder whether it has got some other number by which we can identify it?
DR. SERVATIUS: The Prosecution handed me Document Number 054-PS: that is Exhibit Number USA-198. That is Number 13 in the English "Slave Labor" Book. [Turning to the defendant.] There, on Page 4, mention is made of a return transport, and in connection with it very bad conditions are described and censured. Did you find it? The passage begins: "Very depressing effects on the morale of the skilled workers and the population are caused above all by people returning from Germany in a condition unfit for work, or who were already unfit before they came to Germany."
SAUCKEL: These can only be incidents which occurred before . . .
THE PRESIDENT: We haven't had the question yet, have we? The question didn't come through, I think.
DR. SERVATIUS: I will put the question again. In this document mention is made of return transports from Germany to the East, and two transports are denounced on account of the abominable conditions which are described. I quote from the document: "Very depressing effects on the morale of the skilled workers and the population are caused above all by people returning from Germany in a condition unfit for work, or who were already unfit before they came to Germany. Several times already transports of skilled workers on their way to Germany have passed returning transports of such unfit persons, and they have stood on the tracks alongside each other for some time. On account of the insufficient care given these returning transports (sick, injured, or weak people, mostly 50 or 60 to a car, often many days without sufficient care and food, usually escorted by only 3 or 4 men), and through the frequently very unfavorable-even if exaggerated-statements of these repatriates about their treatment in Germany and en route, added to what the people could see with their own eyes, a psychosis of fear developed among the skilled workers and others being transported to Germany. Several transport leaders, especially those of the 62d and the 63d Transports, reported details in this connection. In one case the leader of the transport of skilled workers observed with his own eyes how a person who had died of hunger was unloaded on the side track from a returning transport. (1st Lt. Hofmann of the 63d Transport, Darniza Station.) On another occasion it was reported that en route three dead..."
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think you need read all of this to the defendant. He probably knows it and he can give his answer upon it.
DR. SERVATIUS: You see that reference is being made to a report; will you please comment on it?
SAUCKEL: Concerning this report, may I say the following: These terrible conditions had to be investigated at once by the local authorities concerned. A report on the result of the investigation did not reach me. This report here was also not made to me. I may point out that the transportation to Germany of sick people unfit for work was strictly prohibited by me, because that would have been a crime and an impossibility from the economic point of view. I could not possibly say who sent these trains back. It was also not established what kind of transports they really were. The report describes conditions which already existed before I came into office. I, personally-and I should like to emphasize this particularly-issued a decree according to which sick people or pregnant women-I personally issued orders that, if a return transport of sick people were necessary, the German Red Cross were to furnish personnel to accompany these people ad the way back to their native place. These orders can be found among the codes. Such terrible cases of negligence and crime are, therefore, in contradiction to the clear regulations issued by the German labor authorities.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you not equip Bad Frankenthal for sick people who could not return?
SAUCKEL: In my own Gau it was not Bad Frankenthal but Bad Frankenhausen, Kyffhauser, which I made available for sick Soviet workers. In addition, I had a large school set aside in Edendorf near Weimar with 100 beds for typhus patients and Russian prisoners of war. So, on my own initiative, I myself did everything possible to help in dealing with cases of sickness and similar matters. It was also prohibited to return people while they were in a sick condition.
THE PRESIDENT: We had better adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
DR. SERVATIUS: When the workers arrived in Germany . . .
SAUCKEL: May I say something about Document Number 054-PS to supplement my testimony? It is very important.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
SAUCKEL: On Page 5, near the center of the page, I should like to call your attention to the following sentence of the reporter -this is a report within a military authority: "These extreme incidents which took place in transports in the first few months did not, to our knowledge, repeat themselves in the summer." In the first months of the year 1942 I was not even in office, and my program did not commence until May. In the summer of that year, as it is correctly stated here, an end was put to this state of affairs. Furthermore, I should like to call attention in the same document, 054-PS, I believe on Page 10, to a copy of a letter of complaint which says, `'As I informed you in my letter of 20 April 1942..." It is evident, therefore, that this letter deals with complaints about conditions which must have been disclosed before I assumed office.