dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: For that reason, members of the SS testified only on such subjects which appeared to them typical of their work in the SS, the combat soldier on his experiences at the front, and the member of the General SS on the nature of his work in the years from 1933 to 1939. HERR PELCKMANN: To give an example-the Tribunal will be able to see it later from the affidavits-under IV, Numbers 1 to 9, here the question is raised: "Was ill-treatment in concentration camps forbidden?" Now, if there are only two statements on this point, does that mean that only two out of hundreds of thousands of members of the SS can confirm this prohibition, while all others- and this would be important-know the opposite to be true? REINECKE: No, that is just what it does not mean. It does mean that the members of the SS who were questioned could not make a statement on that point at all, because they did not know anything about it; they could give an answer neither in a negative nor in a positive sense, and for that reason they passed it without making any statement at all. HERR PELCKMANN: Do you think, judging by your knowledge of the various branches of the SS and their activities and of the attitude of the bulk of the SS men, that these 136,000 or so affidavits represent the average knowledge of the bulk of the SS men, even though the entire strength of the SS was, of course, considerably more than 136,000? REINECKE: One must bear in mind that most of the men and junior officers who represent the bulk had already been released at. the time when the affidavits were deposed. It must also be con-sidered that in many camps a great many technical difficulties existed and inquiries were not made everywhere on uniform lines. In addition, statements of opinion from the Russian Zone and from Austria are missing altogether. In spite of these considerable defi-ciencies, I believe that I can say on the strength of my own knowl-edge of the typical activities of the SS that the whole picture which these affidavits present can be considered as typical of the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, I have no further ques-tions to put to this witness. THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken.] DR.LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I ask for permission to put a question to the witness in order to clear up one point which came up during this examination? It will take about three minutes. THE PRESIDENT: What is the point, Dr. Laternser? DR. LATERNSER: I should like to ask the witness about a point which came up during the direct examination by the defendant's counsel for the SS and which concerns the guarding of concentration camps. THE PRESIDENT: How does that affect the High Command? DR. LATERNSER: There could be a connection through the higher official channels, a connection which might possibly in-criminate the accused organization. THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal reject your application. Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? MAJOR JONES: Witness, you were an SS man from 1933 on, were you not? REINECKE: Yes. MAJOR JONES: And during most of that time you were con-nected with the SS legal &tem? REINECKE: Yes. MAJOR JONES: Would a serious view have been taken in the Waffen-SS or the German Army about the murder of Jews by SS men? REINECKE: I did not understand the question. MAJOR JONES: I will repeat it. Would a serious view have been taken in the Waffen-SS or the German Army about the murder of Jews by SS men? REINECKE: If the extermination of the Jews on Hitler's orders had been known in the SS, or as you say, in the Wehrmacht, I am certain that there would have been concern. MAJOR JONES: If an SS man had murdered 50 Jews, would that have resulted in a death penalty being inflicted on him? REINECKE: I cannot answer this question in simple words, because it touches on a basic problem. MAJOR JONES: I want you to look at the document dated September 1939, which shows the tolerance of murder in the SS by the highest judicial authorities and the German Army. It is Document D-421, which will be Exhibit GB-567. The first page of the memorandum: "The Chief of the Army Judiciary announces by telephone.
HERR PELCKMANN: May I ask him, Mr. President, what his attitude is on the allegation of the Prosecution that the extermina-tion of Jews in Auschwitz was considered by members of the SS as a logical outcome of the principles which the SS had learned? THE PRESIDENT: How can he give evidence about that? He can tell us what he saw and what he did. He hasn't told us yet whether he has ever been in the concentration camps. HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, did you know anything about the activity of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police and the SD in the East, as they have been mentioned here in this Trial? REINECKE: I knew nothing about them. I only knew that the Security Police was stationed in the operational zone in the East, where it was carrying out security measures, and I believed that this was the task of the Security Police in that area. The legal authorities never knew of any other orders in that connection, and it was only here that we heard of these things for the first time. HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations.
THE PRESIDENT: How can he give evidence about that? He can tell us what he saw and what he did. He hasn't told us yet whether he has ever been in the concentration camps. HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, did you know anything about the activity of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police and the SD in the East, as they have been mentioned here in this Trial? REINECKE: I knew nothing about them. I only knew that the Security Police was stationed in the operational zone in the East, where it was carrying out security measures, and I believed that this was the task of the Security Police in that area. The legal authorities never knew of any other orders in that connection, and it was only here that we heard of these things for the first time. HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations. He saw his General SS and his Waffen-SS, in which such crimes were not committed, and so he could never hold the belief that he belonged to a criminal organization. He could actually not have any idea of the crimes which were established here.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, did you know anything about the activity of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police and the SD in the East, as they have been mentioned here in this Trial? REINECKE: I knew nothing about them. I only knew that the Security Police was stationed in the operational zone in the East, where it was carrying out security measures, and I believed that this was the task of the Security Police in that area. The legal authorities never knew of any other orders in that connection, and it was only here that we heard of these things for the first time. HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations. He saw his General SS and his Waffen-SS, in which such crimes were not committed, and so he could never hold the belief that he belonged to a criminal organization. He could actually not have any idea of the crimes which were established here. HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, finally may I be allowed to put one question to the witness arising from the fact that together with a staff of assistants he was occupied with the compiling of affidavits.
HERR PELCKMANN: If the High Tribunal desires to hear how these affidavits were obtained and compiled, then this witness can give information about it. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You may ask him. HERR PELCKMANN: 136,213 affidavits were compiled and entered on printed forms in various files, together with a survey of the various fields dealt with and a numerical classification of the affidavits in the individual groups of subjects. Witness, who com-piled these affidavits? REINECKE: They were evaluated and compiled under my direction by 15 SS internees who were judges. Some 170,000 of the statements sent in were evaluated. Of these, 136,213 affidavits and applications to appear as a witness were compiled to form a collec-tion of documents. The rest are only requests for a hearing, et cetera. Those 136,000 statements in the collection were classified according to the various subjects, and they form part of the defense case of the SS. HERR PELCKMANN: Where did you obtain this considerable number of affidavits? REINECKE: Mostly from camps in the American and British Zones; to a smaller extent from the French Zone; none at all from the Russian Zone and from Austria. HERR PELCKMANN: What procedure did you adopt in evalu-ating and compiling these affidavits? REINECKE: I have just explained that in outline. HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, we do not need details. Thank you. Did the selection ... THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, what I understood the wit-ness to say was that there were 170,000 statements utilized, and somehow, from these 170,000 statements, 136,000 affidavits were obtained. Well, how were they obtained? The Tribunal would like to know. Before whom were they sworn? HERR ~ PELCKMANN: The witness will be able to explain that, Mr. President. REINECKE: These 170,000 affidavits were sworn by interned members of the SS. Of this total figure of 170,000 these 136,213 affidavits were, in fact, utilized by my colleagues. The remaining affidavits were not used, because they were either irrelevant or submitted inaccurately or too late. THE PRESIDENT: You mean the whole 170,000 were sworn affidavits?
HERR PELCKMANN: HERR PELCKMANN: Sworn before whom, Witness? REINECKE: Part of these 170,000 affidavits were not sworn. The 136,000 affidavits, however, were all sworn. We knew the decision of the High Tribunal that an affidavit sworn before a German lawyer would only be valid if it had been sworn before May of this year, and that after May of this year affidavits would have to be sworn before an Allied officer. That, however, was not done in all the camps. After May 1946 some affidavits were still sworn before lawyers and courts and in accordance with the decision of, the High Tribunal those had to be discarded as invalid. For that reason, only 136,000 affidavits remained. HERR PELCKMANN: Were the affidavits selected and evaluated with a view that only affidavits favorable to the defense of the SS should be considered? REINECKE: No, all affidavits were fully considered. HERR PELCKMANN: How is it that on some subjects many thousands of statements are available, whereas on others only a few affidavits are contained in the list? REINECKE: From the mass of the affidavits submitted, it is evident that the bulk of the SS members did not understand the Indictment. They cannot imagine, for example, that they were active in a conspiracy; they cannot imagine that they were preparing a war of aggression. For that reason, members of the SS testified only on such subjects which appeared to them typical of their work in the SS, the combat soldier on his experiences at the front, and the member of the General SS on the nature of his work in the years from 1933 to 1939. HERR PELCKMANN: To give an example-the Tribunal will be able to see it later from the affidavits-under IV, Numbers 1 to 9, here the question is raised: "Was ill-treatment in concentration camps forbidden?" Now, if there are only two statements on this point, does that mean that only two out of hundreds of thousands of members of the SS can confirm this prohibition, while all others- and this would be important-know the opposite to be true? REINECKE: No, that is just what it does not mean.
REINECKE: I knew nothing about them. I only knew that the Security Police was stationed in the operational zone in the East, where it was carrying out security measures, and I believed that this was the task of the Security Police in that area. The legal authorities never knew of any other orders in that connection, and it was only here that we heard of these things for the first time. HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations. He saw his General SS and his Waffen-SS, in which such crimes were not committed, and so he could never hold the belief that he belonged to a criminal organization. He could actually not have any idea of the crimes which were established here. HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, finally may I be allowed to put one question to the witness arising from the fact that together with a staff of assistants he was occupied with the compiling of affidavits. If the High Tribunal desires to hear how these affidavits were obtained and compiled, then this witness can give information about it. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You may ask him.
HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations. He saw his General SS and his Waffen-SS, in which such crimes were not committed, and so he could never hold the belief that he belonged to a criminal organization. He could actually not have any idea of the crimes which were established here. HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, finally may I be allowed to put one question to the witness arising from the fact that together with a staff of assistants he was occupied with the compiling of affidavits. If the High Tribunal desires to hear how these affidavits were obtained and compiled, then this witness can give information about it. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You may ask him. HERR PELCKMANN: 136,213 affidavits were compiled and entered on printed forms in various files, together with a survey of the various fields dealt with and a numerical classification of the affidavits in the individual groups of subjects. Witness, who com-piled these affidavits? REINECKE: They were evaluated and compiled under my direction by 15 SS internees who were judges.
HERR PELCKMAN14: Some 170,000 of the statements sent in were evaluated. Of these, 136,213 affidavits and applications to appear as a witness were compiled to form a collec-tion of documents. The rest are only requests for a hearing, et cetera. Those 136,000 statements in the collection were classified according to the various subjects, and they form part of the defense case of the SS. HERR PELCKMANN: Where did you obtain this considerable number of affidavits? REINECKE: Mostly from camps in the American and British Zones; to a smaller extent from the French Zone; none at all from the Russian Zone and from Austria. HERR PELCKMANN: What procedure did you adopt in evalu-ating and compiling these affidavits? REINECKE: I have just explained that in outline. HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, we do not need details. Thank you. Did the selection ... THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, what I understood the wit-ness to say was that there were 170,000 statements utilized, and somehow, from these 170,000 statements, 136,000 affidavits were obtained. Well, how were they obtained? The Tribunal would like to know. Before whom were they sworn? HERR ~ PELCKMANN: The witness will be able to explain that, Mr. President. REINECKE: These 170,000 affidavits were sworn by interned members of the SS. Of this total figure of 170,000 these 136,213 affidavits were, in fact, utilized by my colleagues. The remaining affidavits were not used, because they were either irrelevant or submitted inaccurately or too late. THE PRESIDENT: You mean the whole 170,000 were sworn affidavits? HERR PELCKMANN: Sworn before whom, Witness? REINECKE: Part of these 170,000 affidavits were not sworn. The 136,000 affidavits, however, were all sworn. We knew the decision of the High Tribunal that an affidavit sworn before a German lawyer would only be valid if it had been sworn before May of this year, and that after May of this year affidavits would have to be sworn before an Allied officer. That, however, was not done in all the camps.
HERR PELCKMAN14: After May 1946 some affidavits were still sworn before lawyers and courts and in accordance with the decision of, the High Tribunal those had to be discarded as invalid. For that reason, only 136,000 affidavits remained. HERR PELCKMANN: Were the affidavits selected and evaluated with a view that only affidavits favorable to the defense of the SS should be considered? REINECKE: No, all affidavits were fully considered. HERR PELCKMANN: How is it that on some subjects many thousands of statements are available, whereas on others only a few affidavits are contained in the list? REINECKE: From the mass of the affidavits submitted, it is evident that the bulk of the SS members did not understand the Indictment. They cannot imagine, for example, that they were active in a conspiracy; they cannot imagine that they were preparing a war of aggression. For that reason, members of the SS testified only on such subjects which appeared to them typical of their work in the SS, the combat soldier on his experiences at the front, and the member of the General SS on the nature of his work in the years from 1933 to 1939. HERR PELCKMANN: To give an example-the Tribunal will be able to see it later from the affidavits-under IV, Numbers 1 to 9, here the question is raised: "Was ill-treatment in concentration camps forbidden?" Now, if there are only two statements on this point, does that mean that only two out of hundreds of thousands of members of the SS can confirm this prohibition, while all others- and this would be important-know the opposite to be true? REINECKE: No, that is just what it does not mean. It does mean that the members of the SS who were questioned could not make a statement on that point at all, because they did not know anything about it; they could give an answer neither in a negative nor in a positive sense, and for that reason they passed it without making any statement at all.