dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: Do you want this Tribunal to believe that employees and people in your bank were sending lists out to municipal pawn brokers without it ever coming to your attention?
FUNK: I know nothing at all about these events. They can only be explained in that things were apparently delivered to the Reichsbank which it was not supposed to keep. That is obvious.
MR.DODD: Well, I would also like you to look at Document Number 3949-PS, which is dated 4 days later, 19 September 1942, Exhibit USA-848. Now, you will see this is a memorandum concerning the conversion of notes, gold, silver, and jewelry in favor of the Reich Minister of Finance, and it also says that it is "a partial statement of valuables received by our precious metals department." Again I think it is unnecessary to read it all. You can look at it and read it, but the last two paragraphs, after telling what the shipments contained as they arrived on 26 August 1942, say: "Before we remit the total proceeds, to date 1,184,345.59 Reichsmark to the Reichshauptkasse for the account of the Reich Minister of Finance, we beg to be informed under what reference number this amount and subsequent proceeds should be transferred. "It might further be of advantage to call the attention of the responsible office of the Reich Minister of Finance in good time to the amounts to be transferred from the Deutsche Reichsbank." And again that is signed, "Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse," and there is a stamp on there that says, "Paid by check, Berlin, 27 October 1942, Hauptkasse."
FUNK: For this document, that is, this note to the Reich Minister of Finance, I believe I am able to give an explanation, and that is on the basis of testimony given here by witnesses who came from concentration camps. The witness Ohlendorf, if I remember correctly, and another one, have testified that the valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps had to be turned over and were delivered to the Reich Minister of Finance. Now, I assume that the technical procedure was that these things were first brought to the Reichsbank by mistake. The Reichsbank, however-and I keep repeating it-could do nothing with the pearls, jewelry, and similar items which are mentioned here, and therefore turned over these items to the Reich Minister of Finance or they were used for the account of the Reich Minister of Finance. That is apparent from this document. In other words, this merely is a statement of account sent by the Reichsbank for the Reich Minister of Finance. That is, I believe, the meaning of this document.
MR. DODD: Well, indeed, you did hear Ohlendorf say that these unfortunate people who were exterminated in these camps had their possessions turned over to the Reich Minister of Finance. I believe he testified to that effect here. Now, you also...
FUNK: That is what I heard here. These things were news to me. However, I did not know that the Reichsbank...
MR. DODD: You have told us that twice already.
FUNK: . . . that the Reichsbank dealt with these matters in such detail.
MR. DODD: Are you telling us that you did not know they dealt with them in such detail, or that you did not know they dealt with them at all? I think that is important. What is your answer, that you did not know they went into them in such detail or that you did not know anything about it? . FUNK: I personally had nothing to do with it at all.
MR. DODD: Did you know about it?
FUNK: No.
MR. DODD: You never heard of it?
FUNK: I did not know at all that any jewelry, watches, cigarette cases, and so forth were delivered to the Reichsbank; that is news to me.
MR.DODD: Did you know that anything came from concentration camps to the Reichsbank? Anything at all?
FUNK: Yes, the gold, of course. I already said that.
MR. DODD: Gold teeth?
FUNK: I have said that-no.
MR. DODD: What gold from the concentration camps?
FUNK: The gold about which Herr Puhl had reported to me, and I assumed that these were coins and other gold which had to be deposited at the Reichsbank anyway, and which the Reichsbank could utilize according to the legal regulations. Otherwise, I know nothing about it.
MR.DODD: Just what did Himmler say to you and what did you say to Himmler when you had this conversation, as you tell us, about this gold from the concentration camp victims? I think the Tribunal might be interested in that conversation. What did he say, and what did you say, and where was the conversation held?
FUNK: I do not remember any more where the conversation was held. I saw Himmler very rarely, perhaps once or twice. I assume that it was on the occasion of a visit in the field quarters of Lammers, where Himmler's field quarters were also located. It must have been there. On that occasion we spoke very, very briefly about that.
MR. DODD: Wait just a minute. Will you also tell us when it was?
FUNK: Possibly during the year 1943; it might have been 1944, I do not remember.
MR. DODD: All right.
FUNK: I attached no importance whatsoever to this matter. In the course of the conversation I put the question, "There is a gold deposit from you, from the SS, which we have at the Reichsbank. The members of the board of directors have asked me whether the Reichsbank can utilize that." And he said, "Yes." I did not say a word about jewelry or things of that kind or gold teeth or anything of that sort. The entire conversation referred only very briefly to this thing.
MR.DODD: Do you mean to tell us that an arrangement was made with your bank independently of you and Himmler, but by somebody in the SS and somebody in your bank-that you were not the original person who arranged the matter?
FUNK: That is right. It was not I.
MR. DODD: Who in your bank made that arrangement?
FUNK: Possibly it was Herr Puhl or maybe somebody else from the Reichsbank Directorate who made the arrangement with one of the gentlemen of the economic section in the SS. And I was only informed of it by Herr Puhl very briefly.
MR. DODD: Did you know Herr Pohl, P-o-h-l, of the SS?
FUNK: I imagine it was he. Herr Pohl never spoke to me about it.
MR. DODD: You do not know the man?
FUNK: I must certainly have seen him at some time, but Herr Pohl never spoke to me about these matters. I never spoke to him.
MR. DODD: Where did you see him, in the bank?
FUNK: Yes, I saw him once in the bank when he spoke to Puhl and other gentlemen of the Reichsbank Directorate during a luncheon. I walked through the room and I saw him sitting there, but I personally never spoke with Herr Pohl about these questions. This is all news to me, this entire matter.
MR.DODD: Well, do you recall the testimony of the witness Hoess in this courtroom not so long ago? You remember the man? He sat where you are sitting now. He said that he exterminated between 21/2 and 3 million Jews and other people at Auschwitz. Now, before I ask you the next question I want you to recall that testimony and I will point something out for you about it that may help you. You recall that he said that Himmler sent for him in June 1941, and that Himmler told him that the final solution of the Jewish problem was at hand, and that he was to conduct these exterminations. Do you recall that he went back and looked over the facilities in one camp in Poland and found it was not big enough to kill the number of people involved and he had to construct gas chambers that would hold 2,000 people at a time, and so his extermination program could not have got under way until pretty late in 1941, and you observe that your assistant and credible friend Puhl says it was in 1942 that these shipments began to arrive from the SS?
FUNK: No, I know nothing about the date. I do not know when these things happened. I had nothing to do with them. It is all news to me that the Reichsbank was concerned with these things to this extent.
MR.DODD: Then I take it you want to stand on an absolute denial that at any time you had any knowledge of any kind about these transactions with the SS or their relationship to the victims of the concentration camps. After seeing this film, after hearing Puhl's affidavit, you absolutely deny any knowledge at all?
FUNK: Only as far as I have mentioned it here.
MR. DODD: I understand that; there was some deposit of gold made once, but no more than that. That is your statement. Let me ask you something, Mr. Funk . . .
FUNK: Yes; that these things happened consistently is all news to me.
MR.DODD: All right. You know you did on one occasion at least, and possibly two, break down and weep when you were being interrogated, you recall, and you did say you were a guilty many and you gave an explanation of that yesterday. You remember those tears. I am just asking you now; I am sure you do. I am just trying to establish the basis here for another question. You remember that happened?
FUNK: Yes.
MR.DODD: And you said, "I am a guilty man." You told us yesterday it was because you were upset a little bit in the general situation. I am suggesting to you that is it not a fact that this matter that we have been talking about since yesterday has been on your conscience all the time and that was really what is on your mind, and it has been a shadow on you ever since you have been in custody? And is it not about time that you told the whole story?
FUNK: I cannot tell more to the Tribunal than I have already said, that is the truth. Let Herr Puhl be responsible before God for what he put in the affidavit; I am responsible for what I state here. It is absolutely clear that Herr Puhl is now trying to put the blame on me and to exculpate himself. If he has done these things for years with the SS, it is his guilt and his responsibility. I have only spoken to him two or three times about these things, that is, about the things I have mentioned here.
MR. DODD: You are trying to put the blame on Puhl, are you not?
FUNK: No. He is blaming me and I repudiate that.
MR.DODD: The trouble is, there was blood on this gold, was there not, and you knew this since 1942?
FUNK: I did not understand.
MR. DODD: Well, I would like to ask you one or two questions about two short documents. It will take but a short time. You told the Tribunal yesterday that you had nothing to do with any looting of these occupied countries. Do you know what the Roges corporation was?
FUNK: Yes. I do not know in detail what they did. I know only that it was an organization which made official purchases for various Reich departments.
MR. DODD: This Roges corporation purchased on the black market in France with the surpluses from the occupation cost fund, did it not?
FUNK: I was against this type of purchases in the black market.
MR.DODD: I am not asking you whether you were for it or against it. I was simply asking you if it is not a fact that they did it.
FUNK: I do not know.
MR. DODD: All right. You had better take a look at Document Number 2263-PS, which is written by one of your associates, Dr. Landfried, whom you also asked for as a witness here and from whom you have an interrogatory. This is a letter dated 6 June 1942, addressed to the Chief of the OKW Administrative Office: "In answer to my letter of 25 April 1942"-and so on-"100 million Reichsmark were put at my disposal from the Occupation Cost Fund by the OKW. This amount has already been disposed of except for 10 million Reichsmark, since the demands of the Roges (Raw Material Trading Company), Berlin, for the acquisition of merchandise on the black market in France, were very heavy. In order not to permit a stoppage in the flow of purchases which are made in the interest of the prosecution of the war, further amounts from the occupation cost fund must be made available. According to information from Roges and from the economic department of the Military Commander in France, at least 30 million Reichsmark in French francs are needed every 10 days for such purchases. "As, according to information received from Roges, an increase of purchases is to be expected, it will not be sufficient to make available the remaining 100 million Reichsmark in accordance with my letter of 25 April 1942, but over and above this, an additional amount of 100 million Reichsmark will be necessary." It is very clear from that letter written by your associate Landfried that the Roges corporation, which was set up by your Ministry, was engaged in black market operations in France with money extorted from the French through excessive occupation costs, is it not?
FUNK: That the Roges made such purchases' is true. These things have already been dealt with here in connection with the orders and directives which the Four Year Plan gave for these purchases on the black market. However, these are purchases which were arranged and approved by the state organization. What we especially fought against were the purchases without limits in the black market. I already mentioned yesterday that I finally succeeded in getting a directive from the Reich Marshal that all purchases in the black market were to be stopped because through these purchases naturally merchandise was withdrawn from the legal markets.
MR.DODD: You told us that yesterday. That was 1943. There was not much left in France on the black market or white market or any other kind of market by that time, was there? That country was pretty well stripped by that time, as is shown in the letters.
FUNK: In 1943 I believe a great deal was still coming from France. There was continuous production going on in France and it was considerable. The official French statistics show that even in 1943 large quantities of the total production were being diverted to Germany. These quantities were not a great deal less than in 1941 and '42.
MR.DODD: Well, in any event I also want you to talk a little bit about Russia, because I understood you to say yesterday you did not have much to do with that. Schlotterer was your man who was assigned to work with Rosenberg, was he not?
FUNK: From the beginning I assigned Ministerial Director Dr. Schlotterer to Rosenberg, so that only one economic department, the competent department for the Minister for the Eastern Occupied Territories, would work in Russia, and not two.
DR. DODD: That is all I want to know. He was assigned. And he participated in the program of stripping Russia of machines, materials, and goods, which went on for some considerable period of time; you knew about it.
FUNK: No, that is not true. This man did not have this task. These transactions were handled by the Economic Department East which, I think, came under the Four Year Plan. As far as I know these transactions were not handled by Minister Rosenberg and certainly not by the Ministry of Economics.
MR. DODD: It is a different story on different occasions. I think the best way is to read your interrogation. On 19 October 1945 you were interrogated here in Nuremberg. You were asked this question: "And part of the plan was to take machines, materials and goods out of Russia and bring them into Germany, was it not?" And you answered: "Yes, most certainly, but I did not participate in that. But in any case it was done." The next question: "Question: Yes, and you yourself participated in the discussions concerning these plans, and also your representative, Dr. Schlotterer? "Answer: I myself did not participate. "Question: But you gave the power to act for you in that connection to Dr. Schlotterer? "Answer: Yes; Schlotterer represented me in economic questions in the Rosenberg Ministry."
FUNK: No, that is not true. This testimony is completely confused, because Schlotterer joined the Rosenberg Ministry. He became head of the economic department there. Also, this testimony is not true to this extent, since we certainly sent more machines into Russia than we took out of Russia. When our troops came to Russia everything had been destroyed, and in order to put the economy there in order, we had to send large quantities of machinery and other goods to Russia.
MR. DODD: Do you mean to say that you did not make these answers that I have just read to you when you were interrogated?
FUNK: Those answers are not correct.
MR.DODD: You know, it is very interesting that you told us yesterday that the answers to the questions put to you by Major Gans were incorrect. I posed another interrogation to you yesterday and you said that was incorrect. Now a third man has interrogated you, and you say that one is incorrect.
FUNK: No, I say what I said is wrong.
MR. DODD: Well, of course, that is what I am talking about.
FUNK: That is wrong.
MR.DODD: I will submit that interrogation in evidence; it is not in form to be submitted, but I would like to submit it a little later, with the Tribunal's permission.
THE PRESIDENT: You will inform us, when you do, as to the number and so on?
MR. DODD: Yes, I will. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other prosecutors wish to cross-examine?
STATE COUNSELLOR OF JUSTICE M. Y. RAGINSKY (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): After Mr. Dodd's cross-examination I have a few supplementary questions to ask. Defendant Funk, you testified yesterday that your Ministry at the time of the attack on the Soviet Union had very limited functions, and that you yourself were not a minister in the true sense of the word. In this connection I want to ask you a few questions regarding the structure of the Ministry of Economics. Tell me, are you familiar with the book by Hans Quecke, entitled, The Reich Ministry of Economics? Do you know about this book?
FUNK: No.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You do not know? Are you familiar with the name of Hans Quecke?
FUNK: Hans Quecke?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes. Hans Quecke. He was a counsellor in the Ministry of Economics.
FUNK: Quecke was a ministerial director in the Ministry of Economics.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And he, of course, knew about the structure of the Ministry of Economics and about its functions. Am I right?
FUNK: Certainly. He must have known about that.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I present this book in evidence to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-451, and you, Witness, will receive a photostat copy of the section of this book in order that you can follow me. Please open it at Page 65, last paragraph. Have you found the passage in question?
FUNK: I have not found it yet. I can only see. . .
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Page 65, last paragraph of the page.
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You have found it, yes?
FUNK: The structure of the Reich Ministry of Economics?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It gives the structure of the Ministry of Economics as on 1 July 1941. Your permanent deputy was a certain Dr. Landiried. Is that the same Landfried whose testimony was presented by the Defense Counsel?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I must ask you to follow the text: "Landfried had under him a special department which was in charge of fundamental questions of supply of raw materials for the military economy." Defendant Funk, I am asking you.. .
FUNK: Just a moment. Where is that?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It is in Section 2, Part II. Have you found it?
FUNK: No, there is nothing here about war economy. I do not see anything about war economy. Auslands-Organisation...
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Part II, Subparagraph 2.
FUNK: It says nothing about war economy here.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I shall read the entire paragraph into the record. We shall get down to the Auslands-Organisation in good time.
FUNK: This is a special section.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, a special section.
FUNK: Directly subordinate to the State Secretary here is Section S. Special Section, basic questions of the supply of raw materials, basic questions of war economy, basic questions of...
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It is precisely about this war economy that I wish to speak. He was also in charge of the fundamental market policy and of economic questions in the border territories. The ministry consisted of five main departments. Am I right?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The third main department was headed by Schmeer? Am I right?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You had a special department entitled, "Elimination of the Jews from Economic Life." That was in 1941 ? Am I right?
FUNK: Yes; that was the time we dealt with these matters; in that department the regulations for carrying out these orders were dealt with. We discussed them at length yesterday.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Defendant Funk, I ask you to follow the text: "The fourth main department was headed by Ministerialdirektor Dr. Klucki, and this department was in charge of banks, currency, credit and insurance matters." Is that a fact?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I presume that you must know the structure of your own ministry and we need not waste time in further discussions. You must know that the fifth main department was headed by State Secretary Von Jagwitz. This department was in charge of special economic problems in different countries. The fifth section of this department attended to questions of military economy connected with foreign economy. Am I right?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The same department dealt with special foreign payments as well as with the blocked deposits . . .
FUNK: I do not understand. This is the Foreign Trade Department. They merely dealt with the technical carrying-out of the foreign exports.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Take the section dealing with foreign currencies. Have you found the passage?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You have found that it deals with blocked deposits. Were you at all connected with the collaboration existing between your ministry and the Office of Foreign Affairs of the NSDAP? Is my question clear to you?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And your ministry had a special section dealing with these matters?
FUNK: Only this office. That can be explained in this manner. The Under State Secretary, Von Jagwitz, who was the head of this main department, was also active in the Auslands-Organisation. He had created a liaison office for himself in the ministry to deal with economic questions which came to the ministry-to this department, which was the Export Department, the Foreign Department-via the Auslands-Organisation. This concerned Von Jagwitz only, who at the same time was active in the Auslands-Organisation and maintained a liaison office.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Then we are to understand that the Foreign Political Department had special economic functions abroad, and that it co-operated with your ministry in this sense? Is that correct?
FUNK: No, that is not correct.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Then why did this department exist?
FUNK: It was not a department, but the Under State Secretary, Von Jagwitz, was at the same time active in the Auslands-Organisation. I do not know in what position. He was active in the Auslands-Organisation before he was taken into the ministry by the Reich Marshal. Then he himself created a kind of liaison office between his department and the Auslands-Organisation. That is, frequently economists from abroad belonging to the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP came to Berlin, and these people came to Under State Secretary Von Jagwitz and discussed their business with him and they reported to him about their experience and knowledge of foreign countries. I do not know any more about it.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You wish to convince us that this was the personal initiative of Von Jagwitz, and that you as minister knew nothing at all about it?
FUNK: Certainly, I knew about it. He did it with my knowledge, with my knowledge and approval...
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Please follow the text and you had better listen to what I want to say. I read the last paragraph which states: "To the Main Department V is attached the office of the Auslands-Organisation with the Reich Ministry of Economics. This office secures the co-operation between the ministry and the Auslands-Organisation of the Nazi Party." This means that no mention is made of any private initiative of Von Jagwitz, as you tried to persuade us, but this department really was a part of your ministry. Have you found the passage?