dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
KORNER: I cannot say exactly. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I am not sure of it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was he?
KORNER: Karpfenstein was Gauleiter in Stettin.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Gauleiter was a Party official?
KORNER: Yes, he was a Party official.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the concentration camps were designed to take care of not only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Prime Minister of Prussia was the Chief of the Secret State Police?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in his absence the State Secretary of the State Ministry was to act as Chief of the Secret State Police?
KORNER: No, that was Diels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not know that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
KORNER: I cannot remember that law any more. I no longer know the details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know the law of 30 November 1933? You do not know the law under which you were operating?
KORNER: I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what was wrong with these concentration camps that they had to be closed down?
KORNER: These unauthorized concentration camps had been established without permission of the then Prussian Prime Minister and for that reason he prohibited them immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is the only reason, that they were set up without this authority?
KORNER: I believe so; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he had them stopped immediately?
KORNER: Stopped; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goering did not tolerate concentration camps that were not under his control and the Fuehrer backed him up in it, is that right?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, from time to time complaints came to you about the treatment of people in concentration camps, during all the time you were with Goering, did they not?
KORNER: Yes, there were frequent complaints.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did they complain of?
KORNER: Various things.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Tell the Tribunal what the complaints were with which you had to deal.
KORNER: Well, mostly from relatives of the people taken to concentration camps whose release was applied for; or complaints that these people had been taken to a concentration camp without reason.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is, that they were innocent people, innocent of any offense?
KORNER: The relatives asserted this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you do anything to get them released from concentration camps?
KORNER: The Reich Marshal had ordered that all complaints were to be replied to. Every case was followed up at once.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you find that many of these people were innocent, or did you find that they were guilty?
KORNER: If anybody was found to have been wrongly taken to a concentration camp he was released immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And to whom was the communication given, that he had been found innocent and was to be released from the concentration camp?
KORNER: It was given to the Secret State Police. 1VIR. JUSTICE JACKSON: To whom at the Secret State Police? Who was the man you communicated with?
KORNER: I cannot name the individual who dealt with these matters. The chief, as far as I remember, was first Heydrich and then Kaltenbrunner or Miller.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goering was on good terms with all of those, was he not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well acquainted with all of those men?
KORNER: Of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, when you say that Goering obtained the release of people from concentration camps, are you talking about just one or two cases or did he obtain the release of a good many people?
KORNER: In the course of the years, there were naturally several cases.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What do you mean by "several"?
KORNER: Well, I cannot give the number now, but there were quite a lot of releases.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you find any where the people were guilty when you investigated?
KORNER: If they could not be released, then they were guilty somehow.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who decided that?
KORNER: That, as far as I know, was decided by the chief men of the Secret State Police.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, then, what did you do in requesting their release? Did you advise the Secret State Police that you disagreed with their conclusion that the man was guilty, or did Goering simply order the man to be released or request his release?
KORNER: No, they were told the exact reason why the man should be released.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know of any instance in which Goering requested the release of a person from a concentration camp, where it was not granted?
KORNER: I cannot say that now. I have to think it over.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You cannot recall any today, can you, in which Goering's word requesting a release was not honored?
KORNER: At the moment I cannot remember any particular case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were put in concentration camps as a result of the Rohm revolt?
KORNER: That I cannot say either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were killed as a result of it?
KORNER: I cannot say from memory. As far as I know, the figures were published at the time.
MR. JUSTICE. JACKSON: Well, would it be a couple of hundred people that were killed for it?
KORNER: I should not like to tie myself to a figure, because I may be wrong.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, it was a very large number of people was it not?
KORNER: No, I am sure it was not a very large number.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Give a figure.
KORNER: The number was published at the time. This could still be checked.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, why did the Reich Marshal want Hitler to stop punishing the people who had been a party to the Rohm revolt?
KORNER: I did not quite understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understood your testimony to be that the Reich Marshal went to Hitler at some time and wanted this campaign against people who were in the Rohm revolt to be stopped. And I want to know why he wanted it stopped?
KORNER: In order to prevent innocent people being involved. Only the really guilty were to be caught and punished accordingly. It was clear that someone or other might seize this opportunity to take personal revenge and do away with his enemy, and in order to prevent this the action should be stopped immediately and only ordinary courts should deal with the matter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was in charge of the selection of the people who were shot or otherwise killed as a result of the Rohm revolt?
KORNER: The Fuehrer himself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Reich Marshal had sufficient influence to stop that immediately when he complained?
KORNER: At that time, yes, the Reich Marshal definitely had sufficient influence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In connection with this Four Year Plan you said that it was its function to regulate the confusion in the labor market?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you represented the Reich Marshal at many meetings, did you not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And was not one of your functions to get prisoners of war to work in the armament industry and other industries that needed labor?
KORNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never had anything to do with that?
KORNER: No. The Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor of course applied for prisoners of war for labor.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You attended many meetings when that was discussed, did you not?
KORNER: I cannot recall that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you report to the Reich Marshal what happened at those meetings?
KORNER: When questions of a general nature were discussed, a report was made and submitted to the Reich Marshal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you were representing the Reich Marshal on that Board?
KORNER: No. I did not represent the Reich Marshal there, It was a board of three men -- Minister Speer , Field Marshal Milch and myself. The Central Planning Board was set up in the spring of 1942.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who appointed you?
KORNER: The three of us were appointed to the Central Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who appointed you?
KORNBR: As far as I remember, Goering.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you reported to him, did you not, what occurred from time to time?
KORNER: The Central Planning Board was merely an office for the distribution of raw materials. We usually met every 3 months in order to fix the quotas for the following quarter. Previously the office of the Four Year Plan, in co-operation with the Minister of Economics, handled the distribution and, from the spring of 1942 on, the Central Planning Board handled it in the interests of armament.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, do you want us to understand that the Central Planning Board only met every 3 months?
KORNER: Yes, approximately. In very rare cases another meeting was called, especially if there were urgent problems to be solved. I remember, for instance, the case when it was said that agriculture was not getting enough nitrogen and that if the nitrogen quota were too small, agricultural production would suffer. In view of this State Secretary Backe asked for a meeting to be called and this took place at the Central Planning Board office.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Would you testify that Sauckel did not report to the Central Planning Board, at a meeting at which you were present, that out of all the labor that came to Germany only 200,000 came voluntarily -- out of the millions who came only 200,000 came voluntarily?
KORNER: I cannot remember that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you say that the Central Planning Board never discussed labor questions?
KORNER: At the Central Planning Board only demands for labor were submitted, and the quota holders to whom raw materials were allocated also demanded the necessary labor. Only very rough figures were given and then passed on to the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about prisoners of war?
KORNER: With these the Central Planning Board was not at all concerned, as it was given only rough figures. For instance, if some branch of industry needed so many thousand workers, they were asked for.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about concentration camp labor?
KORNER: The distribution of labor was dealt with by the labor exchanges. The Central Planning Board had nothing to do with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Are you familiar with a letter dated 9 March 1944, reciting that 36,000 concentration camp prisoners were now being used and wanting an increase to 90,000?
KORNER: I do not know about these demands.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know about the use of Russian prisoners of war in manning antiaircraft guns?
KORNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After Goering closed the unauthorized concentration camps, did you know that the number of concentration camps increased very greatly in Germany?
KORNER: This I do not know. What happened after they were turned over to Himmler is beyond my knowledge. It may be that a large number of concentration camps was then set up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How do you come to know about Goering's relations with Himmler? Did he tell you?
KORNER: Goering once spoke about it, and I concluded that the relations were not at all good.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know about the appointment of Kaltenbrunner as head of the Austrian State Police after the Anschluss?
KORNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know who obtained that appointnient for Kaltenbrunner?
KORNER: No, I have no idea.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you say that Goering and you were in Munich on the night or nights of the anti-Jewish riots in Germany?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was Goebbels also there?
KORNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Go ahead; do you want to say something else?
KORNER: On 9 November we traveled from Munich to Berlin, so Goebbels could not be there then.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Why could he not be there?
KORNER: Because the Reich Marshal, with his entourage, traveled in his train to Berlin.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I mean, did you know that Goebbels was in Munich before these uprisings?
KORNER: Yes, that I heard afterwards -- that Goebbels was in Munich. All National Socialist leaders were in Munich because 9 November was a day when all of them met.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Goebbels spoke in Munich on the Jewish question that night did he not?
KORNER: That I do not know. I do not remember the speech.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goering was there to attend the meeting of the National Socialist leaders, was he not?
KORNER: Yes, on 9 November the entire leadership of the National Socialist Party met in Munich. It was an anniversary meeting.
AIR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Goering attended regularly?
KORNER: Of course he did.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you did?
KORNER: I did also.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Hess attended?
KORNER: As I said, all National Socialist leaders always attended if they possibly could. Nobody ever failed to attend unless he were ill, or prevented by official duties.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Which of the defendants in the dock attended those meetings? Ribbentrop, of course?
KORNER: Ribbentrop, certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Keitel ?
KORNER: I assume so. MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: Kaltenbrunner?
KORNER: I never saw Kaltenbrunner, because Kaltenbrunner held a public post only during the latter years, and during these years the meetings were not as regular as before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Rosenberg , of course, was there?
KORNER: Of course, as I said before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Frank and Frick ?
KORNER: Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Streicher ?
KORNER: Not during the latter years, I do not think so; but previously he attended.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was that, during the latter years?
KORNER: As far as I know, Streicher did not attend during the latter years, but I do not know for certain.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He attended in November 1938 when the anti-Jewish uprisings took place, did he not?
KORNER: I believe so, because at that time Streicher was still in Nuremberg.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He was very active, was he not?
KORNER: I did not understand the question quite correctly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He was very active in the anti-Jewish matters, was he not?
KORNER: Yes; this is generally known.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did he see Funk at those meetings?
KORNER: I believe that Funk frequently attended these meetings.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the subject considered at this meeting of 9 November, the night of the anti-Jewish uprising?
KORNER: I do not know of any discussions as there was always a fixed program on that day, and I did not know about anything else, nor can the Reich Marshal have known.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the adjutant who informed him on his arrival the next morning that something had happened during the night?
KORNER: This I cannot say exactly as the adjutants were always changing. I only know that an adjutant came and reported.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did he say that happened?
KORNER: He reported that during the night anti-Jewish riots had taken place and were still going on; that shop windows had been smashed, goods thrown into the streets. Goering was infuriated about this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was he infuriated about?
KORNER: About the riots.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
KORNER: About the entire action.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
KORNER: Goering always showed a different attitude to the Jewish question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You just tell us what it was. You may go into all details. Tell us what his attitude was.
KORNER: He always showed a moderate attitude towards the Jews.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Such as fining them a billion Reichsmark right after the fire, right after these outrages? You know that he did that, do you not?
KORNER: Yes. The Fuehrer demanded it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You know that the Fuehrer is dead, do you not? Do you know that for a fact?
KORNER: Yes, I know he is dead.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is generally understood, is it not, among all of you, that the Fuehrer is dead?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So the Fuehrer ordered the Reich Marshal to levy a fine of a billion Reichsmark? Who ordered the confiscation of the insurance of the Jews a few days after this assault?
KORNER: That I do not know. I can no longer remember the details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you not remember that that was Goering's order?
KORNER: I cannot recall it now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Why did Goering go to Hitler to get this stopped? Why did he not go to the head of the police, which is supposed to prevent crime?
KORNER: Naturally he went to the highest chief so that an authoritative order could be given for these riots to cease immediately. MR. JUSTICi JACKSON: Did he have any idea who had started them?
KORNER: It had gone round that Goebbels had instigated these riots.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did he know that the Gestapo and SS also participated?
KORNER: I do not know. As far as I know the SS did not participate.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did the Gestapo?
KORNER: No, I do not know that either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So he went to Hitler to complain about Goebbels instigating these riots, is that the fact?
KORNER: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So that he knew the next morning that these riots against the Jews had been instigated by members of the Government?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were interrogated at Obersalzberg, the interrogation center, on the 4th of October of last year by Dr. Kempner of our staff, were you not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you stated in the beginning of your interrogation that you would not give any testimony against your former superior, Reich Marshal Goering, and that you regarded Goering as the last big man of the Renaissance; the last great example of a man from the Renaissance period; that he had given you the biggest job of your life and it would be unfaithful and disloyal to give any testimony against him; is that what you said?
KORNER: Yes, that is more or less what I said.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that is still your answer?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No further questions.
TEE PRESIDENT: Do any other members of the Prosecution wish to examine this witness?
GEN. RUDENKO: Perhaps you can remember, Witness, the conference of the heads of the German authorities in the occupied territories which took place on 6 August 1942 under the chairmanship of Defendant Goering.
KORNER: I cannot remember straight off what conference that could have been.
GEN.RUDENKO: Perhaps you can recall that after this conference of 6 August you circulated the minutes to all the ministers. The appendix to these minutes showed how much foodstuff and other raw materials should be supplied to Germany by the occupied territories?
KORNER: I cannot remember offhand.
GEN. RUDENKO: I shall put before you a document signed by you yourself which gives proof of this meeting.
KORNER: Yes, I have read it.
GEN. RUDENKO: You remember that you circulated this document, do you not?
KORNER: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: The document shows that certain figures were fixed as to how much foodstuff should be sent to Germany: 1,200,000 tons from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Norway. From Russia, 3,000,000 tons of grain were to be sent to Germany, et cetera . Do you not consider such deliveries to be a spoliation of the occupied territories?
KORNER: It was a matter of course that the occupied territories had to make every effort in contributing to the food supply. Quotas were imposed on the occupied territories which they could meet or, if they were not in a position to do so, they could subsequently ask for modifications.
GEN. RUDENKO: You said something about "squeezing out," I think?
KORNER: No, I never talked of squeezing out. I said it was a matter of course that the occupied territories had to contribute to the food supply with all the means at their disposal.
GEN. RUDENKO: That the occupied territories had to contribute?
KORNER: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Had these occupied territories asked Germany to come and rule over them?
KORNER: I did not quite understand that question.
GEN. RUDENKO: I do not suppose you did. I now want to ask you another question in connection with this. You did not see that this was plunder, but do you not recall that Goering himself ...
KORNER: No, this could not have been plunder.
GEN. RUDENKO: Goering himself at the same meeting said in his address that he intended to plunder the occupied territories systematically; you do not remember his expression "systematically plunder"?
KORNER: No, I do not know this expression.
GEN. RUDENKO: No, you do not remember. Perhaps you can recall that at the same meeting, when addressing the leaders of the occupied territories, he said to them, "You are sent there not to work for the welfare of the people you are in charge of, but you are sent there in order to squeeze out of that country everything possible." Do you remember these words of the Defendant Goering?
KORNER: No, I cannot remember these words.
GEN. RUDENKO: You cannot remember?
KORNER: No.
GEN. RUDENKO: And you do not recall a lengthy correspondence between Goering and Rosenberg in which Rosenberg insisted that all functions relative to the economic exploitation of the occupied territories of the Soviet Union should be taken away from the military economic offices and transferred to the ministry headed by Rosenberg?
KORNER: No, I do not recall this letter.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not know. And in connection with this you do not remember that this correspondence did not lead to a final settlement of the question?
KORNER: I do not know anything about this correspondence.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not know anything, do you? In 1944 do you not recall that ...
DR. STAHMER: I should like to point out that the interpretation is very incomplete and hard to understand. We ourselves do not fully understand the questions either.
GEN. RUDENKO: I suggest it is not my fault if the witness does not get all my questions. [Turning to the witness.] Do you not recall that in 1944, after the Red Army had driven the German troops from the Ukraine, Goering, wishing to shelve the question of the economic exploitation of the Ukraine, wrote to Rosenberg that it should be postponed until a more opportune time, and Goering mentioned a second seizure of the Ukraine and other Soviet territories?
KORNER: Is this supposed to have happened in 1944?
GEN. RUDENKO: In 1944.
KORNER: No, I cannot remember it.
GEN. RUDENKO: I shall not argue about it. [Turning to the President.] Evidently, Mr. President, you wish to adjourn now. I have a few more questions, but I assume it will be convenient to resume after the adjournment.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn at 4:30 today.
GEN. RUDENKO: Witness, I intend to hand you a document which is a letter addressed to you by the Permanent Delegate of the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. This is Document Number USSR-174. I want you to read it and say whether you have ever seen this letter before. You will see that this document begins with the words, "Honorable Secretary of State and dear Party Comrade Korner." This letter deals with the unification of economic leadership.
KORNER: I have taken note of this document. I definitely received it.
GEN. RUDENKO: You have received it; that is quite obvious. As is quite clear from this communication, the question is that of holding a special meeting under your leadership.
KORNER: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Therefore I may conclude that you were a very close collaborator of the Defendant Goering in the matter of the so-called unification of economic leadership?
KORNER: Yes, for the conference mentioned.
GEN. RUDENKO: One last question. Do you confirm that the Defendant Goering as Delegate for the Four Year Plan, was at the head of both the civilian and the military German organizations dealing with the economic exploitation of all the occupied territories, and that you were his closest collaborator where these economic measures were concerned?
KORNER: The conference mentioned in this document never took place. The unification of economic leadership was a problem which arose, but which never really became a fact. Therefore the conference mentioned was superfluous.