dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions of the defendant?
DR. DIX: Do you know, Witness, that Schacht, before he was taken into custody by the Allied Forces, had been in a concentration camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. DIX: How long have you known that?
KALTENBRUNNER: Since his wife wrote me a letter; and I believe that she requested me to present a petition so that she might get her husband out.
DR. DIX: And about when was that?
KALTENBRUNNER: I assume around Christmas 1944.
DR. DIX: Do you know or have you any idea at whose suggestion Schacht was interned in a concentration camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: I believe that on the very same day I sent this letter from Herr Schacht's wife by courier to the offices of Hitler's adjutant, and I believe I received word through Fegelein or one of Hitler's adjutants, that Hitler was to be consulted in this matter. Some time later I learned that Schacht had been interned on Hitler's order, because he was suspected of working together with Goerdeler or in any case was one of the instigators of the high treason plan and of the assassination attempted on Hitler on 20 July 1944.
DR. DIX: I have a letter I received a short time ago, written by a former concentration camp inmate, who was told by Obersturmbannfuehrer Stawitzky-Do you know him?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. DIX: He was the last commander of the concentration camp at Flossenburg. In this letter I am told that this Stawitzky had told him that he had been ordered to murder Schacht along with the other special internees like Canaris, et cetera. Do you know anything about an order for the murder of Schacht?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. DIX: Do you consider it possible that Stawitzky might have decided on such a step through his own authority?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. DIX: If I interpret your answer correctly, such an instruction could have come only from the highest level, that is, either from Hitler or Himmler?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, you may assume that. As far as Schacht is concerned, it could only have been an order from Hitler himself.
DR. DIX: Thank you.
DR. RUDOLF MERKEL (Counsel for Gestapo): I have some questions to put to the witness. Witness, the Indictment contends that the Secret State Police in the years 1943 to 1945 had about 40,000 to 50,000 members. What can you remember about this?
KALTENBRUNNER: I believe that this figure is slightly too high.
DR. MERKEL: What do you estimate the figure was?
KALTENBRUNNER: I would rather assume 35,000 to 40,000.
DR. MERKEL: Approximately how many Gestapo officials were active in the occupied countries?
KALTENBRUNNER: That I cannot tell you even approximately, but I believe I have heard a figure of 800 people, for example, for the occupied region in France.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know to whom these officials in the occupied countries were subordinate?
KALTENBRUNNER: In the occupied countries, to the commander of the Security Police, who in turn was subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader of the occupied territory.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know at all whether in the of flees of the commanders of the Sipo and SD, Kripo officials, that is, officials of the Criminal Police, were carrying out tasks of a state political nature?
KALTENBRUNNER: That is possible.
DR. MERKEL: What approximately was the number of the Gestapo officials assigned in the East to the Einsatzgruppen A to G?
KALTENBRUNNER: I do not know.
DR. MERKEL: Can you tell me whether these officials, when assigned to the Einsatzgruppen, were released from the authority of the State Police and were acting as a special body in the Einsatzgruppen engaged in tasks with which the State Police themselves had no more to do?
KALTENBRUNNER: I believe one can assume that. Personnel affairs were still attended to, that is, their salaries were paid as usual, but the powers to issue orders, the authority to give orders was certainly different.
DR. MERKEL: Approximately how were the members of the State Police organized, that is, proportionally according to their functions? First, officials who had' purely administrative functions?
KALTENBRUNNER: At least 20 percent.
DR. MERKEL: Officials with purely Security Police functions?
KALTENBRUNNER: The same number; for the greater part were in any case the subordinate personnel, that is, the technical personnel. . .
DR. MERKEL: This is what I intended to ask you. The technical personnel, that is radio men, teletypists, drivers, and office personnel, how many were they altogether?
KALTENBRUNNER: The first group is 20 percent, that is the administrative group, and the so-called executive personnel is 20 percent, then the remaining 60 per cent fall into two equally large groups of 30 percent each, the technical auxiliary personnel and the office personnel.
DR. MERKEL: Tell me in one brief sentence the aims and tasks of the State Police.
KALTENBRUNNER: They have been explained here repeatedly. The State Police had for their main function, as in every other country, the protection of the State from any attack coming from within.
DR. MERKEL: The Prosecution contend that the membership in the State Police was voluntary. What can you say to that?
KALTENBRUNNER: I believe that contention can in no way be maintained nor proved. I would like to say that obviously the official staff in existence in 1933 could be made up only of officials who already had been police officials at that time.
DR. MERKEL: In what way did they come to the State Police?
KALTENBRUNNER: They were ordered.
DR. MERKEL: Ordered or transferred?
KALTENBRUNNER: There was a State Police in existence prior to that time; to be sure, they were not called the State Police at that time, but the Political Police Department.
DR. MERKEL: Then the personnel of the State Police was later on apparently completed, just like the personnel of every other State office, in conformity with the principles of the German Government Employees Law?
KALTENBRUNNER: Absolutely, yes.
DR. MERKEL: Did the Fuehrer Decree Number 1 regarding secrecy apply to the service in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt? You certainly know it-that no one was to know more about a matter than absolutely necessary for his job? Did this rule also apply in the office of the Gestapo?
KALTENBRUNNER: This decree applied not only to the Wehrmacht but also to the entire internal executive power, for all administrative offices, and it was posted in every office throughout the Reich. So, of course, we were especially strict in observing this order in the Police.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything about the 1 October 1944 decree, according to which the entire Customs and Border Protection, which had been under the Reich Finance Of lice until that time, was transferred to Amt IV, that is, the Gestapo, of the RSHA?
KALTENBRUNNER: The Customs and Border Protection was transferred to Himmler and taken out of the sphere of the Reich Finance Ministry-I believe in September-by order of Hitler in the fall of 1944.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know about how much personnel was involved in that transfer?
KALTENBRUNNER: In the beginning the Customs and Border Protection comprised 50,000 people. At this time I think there must have been at least 10,000 people less, because recruiting by the Wehrmacht had taken place several times, that is, younger men were put into the fighting forces.
DR. MERKEL: Can you sum up in one sentence the function of the Customs and Border Protection?
KALTENBRUNNER: "As the name implies, the Customs and Border Protection had to guarantee the financial sovereignty of the Reich through border security measures.
DR. MERKEL: Can one say at all that these estimated 40,000 officials joined the Gestapo voluntarily?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, by order.
DR. MERKEL: The Border Police (Grenzpolizei) is different from the Customs and Border Protection (Zollgrenzschutz). Do you know that as early as 1935 it already formed part of the State Police?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. Muller was General Border Inspector of the Reich.
DR. MERKEL: Sum up in one sentence the tasks of the Border Police.
KALTENBRUNNER: The Border Police checked passports at borders, airports, railways, highways. It was entrusted with the entire normal border control.
DR. MERKEL: Was this task different from what it was in the years before 1933; had anything changed?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. MERKEL: Did it vary from the tasks of the Border Police in other countries?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, that is not true.
DR. MERKEL: How were the relations between the members of the State Police, their officials and employees, and the SS; did they mostly enter the SS voluntarily or was it on the basis of an order?
KALTENBRUNNER: Voluntary enlistments must have been comparatively few. I know that later Himmler, as far as promotions were concerned, was more hesitant if the official did not belong to the SS, so for that reason enlistments occurred, if not from inner conviction, at least from a desire to be promoted.
DR. MERKEL: Thus, the larger part then joined because of this.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, it was based on Himmler's promotional system.
DR. MERKEL: Did the members of the State Police, particularly the officials, have any possibility of leaving their posts when they wanted to?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. MERKEL: A large part of the members of the State Police were so-called "Notdienstverpflichtete." Will you very briefly explain the term to the Tribunal?
KALTENBRUNNER: That is not true of those officials who had executive standing. As far as the other personnel were concerned there were more of that kind among them, especially as the war went along, because losses ran very high, as of course, in all branches of the Police and Wehrmacht. Thus towards the end the personnel could be kept up only by recruiting Notdienstverpflichtete. That is true in any case of the technical and office personnel.
DR. MERKEL: Did those Notdienstverpflichtete join the State Police voluntarily?
KALTENBRUNNER: They had nothing to say in the matter. After consultations with the competent labor offices they were put into the Notdienst positions wherever the Reich ordered it.
DR. MERKEL: What happened to the members of the State Police who at interrogations committed excesses or trespassed on foreign property?
KALTENBRUNNER: The same rules were followed which applied to all organizations subordinate to Himmler. They had their own SS and Police courts. In one sentence I may characterize this system by stating that the penalties were much more severe than in a civil court.
DR. MERKEL: A certain man has asserted that for an offense of taking away a few unimportant things from a prisoner, he had to serve a long period in the penitentiary. Was that the ordinarily normal and just punishment?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know who was taken to the SS Concentration Camp Danzig-Matzkau?
KALTENBRUNNER: Anyone who had been sentenced to imprisonment by SS and Police courts was put into the Danzig-Matzgau SS Concentration Camp, which was called an SS punishment camp rather than a concentration camp.
DR. MERKEL: Could a Gestapo member, especially of a higher rank, visit a concentration camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: Only with the express approval of Pohl or Glucks.
DR. MERKEL: Is that also true of the Higher SS and Police Leaders for the camps which were situated within their districts?
KALTENBRUNNER: I could not say that with certainty. In any case, I assume they also applied or had to apply to make these visits.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know of the so-called "severe interrogations?" Are these in force in other countries, too?
KALTENBRUNNER: I was President of the International Criminal Police Commission, and in this capacity I had the opportunity to speak about this topic at a meeting in the autumn of 1943. From this conference and also from my reading of the foreign press over a number of years I gathered that the police system of each state also makes use of rather severe measures of interrogation.
DR. MERKEL: Could a State Police official. . .
THE PRESIDENT: What happened at some international police commission does not seem to be relevant to anything in this case.
DR. MERKEL: I only wanted to question him as to whether these "severe interrogations" were applied not only in Germany but also in other states.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not concerned with that.
DR. MERKEL: However, the severe measures of interrogation are used as a charge in the trial brief against the State Police, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant.] Could a State Police officer, when executing a protective custody order of limited duration, consider corporal punishment or even the putting to death of the prisoner upon his commitment into the camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: Emphatically no when a custody of limited duration was concerned.
DR. MERKEL: Did a so-called proceedings for investigating the reasons for imprisonment apply also to the inmates of the concentration camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: Every case of protective custody underwent investigation; in time of war twice, in time of peace, of course, more often...
DR. MERKEL: One last problem . . .
KALTENBRUNNER: ...but this investigation was not just a matter of the State Police. It had to be made by the camp commander, who had to report on the behavior of the prisoner. This report had to be given by the camp commander to the Inspector of the Concentration Camps. Then the State Police had to decide on the matter.
DR. MERKEL: The Prosecution have put in evidence a considerable amount about ill-treatment and torture during the questionings which took place in occupied Western countries, especially France, Holland, Belgium, Norway. Were there any instructions from the RSHA in this connection to use torture?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, certainly not.
DR. MERKEL: How do you explain the fact of this ill-treatment?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have heard nothing about such ill-treatment with which the State Police is charged. In my opinion it concerns only excesses of individuals. A decree to that effect certainly was never issued.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that in the occupied countries members of the resistance movement and also criminal elements masqueraded as members of the German State Police in order to facilitate their tasks?
KALTENBRUNNER: That has been repeatedly stated, but I also cannot remember in detail having seen any exact records about that.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you, Mr. President, I have no further questions.
DR. CARL HAENSEL (Counsel for the SS): Witness, in the year 1932 you joined the Austrian SS, according to your testimony.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. HAENSEL: Was there a difference between the Austrian SS and the German SS, or was it a similar group?
KALTENBRUNNER: There was a certain organizational similarity, which took effect only after the Anschluss. Up to the time of the Anschluss, the SS in Austria could hardly be differentiated from the Party or from the SA itself.
DR. HAENSEL: Sum up with a number the strength of the Austrian SS, to which you belonged; first of all, before the Austrian Anschluss in 1938 and then at the time when you joined. How did the development take place approximately, expressed in figures?
THE PRESIDENT: Too fast.
DR. HAENSEL: Did the development of the Austrian SS, to which you belonged, take place in 1938 as in 1932?
KALTENBRUNNER: I believe that at the time of the Austrian Anschluss, the maximum membership was perhaps 7,500.
DR. HAENSEL: Did that group play the role of a Fifth Column in Austria? Is "Fifth Column" a concept at all as far as you are concerned?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, "Fifth Column" became a concept to me through the statements of the enemy, but to term the Austrian SS a Fifth Column is entirely wrong. The Austrian SS never had the task of being an intelligence unit or a sabotage unit or anything like that.
DR. HAENSEL: Did there exist in the Austrian SS, to which you belonged, the slightest intention to bring through force the annexation of Austria to Germany or was this to be brought about through a plebiscite, through legal measures?
KALTENBRUNNER: There was by the SS neither such a plan of annexation by force nor do the facts of the political development comply with this. There was never any necessity for any such step, for the Anschluss Movement, without any such outside urge, was conclusively strong enough in itself.
DR. HAENSEL: It has been asserted that the SS Standarte 86- That must have been the one at Vienna...
KALTENBRUNNER: You are thinking of the Dollfuss Putsch?
DR. HAENSEL: Right. Can you tell me something about that? Did the work of this corps have any connection with the assassination of the Austrian Chancellor?
KALTENBRUNNER: I consider that incorrect. I must say that this corps later on did not have the number 86 but 89. In addition the group which had entered the Chancellery on 25 July 1934 was not a group of the SS, but a group of former members of the Austrian Army who, because of National Socialist activity, had been discharged from the Army. I do not know the matter in detail. However, the chief of the Austrian Police at that time, Dr. Skubl, who as far as I know is demanded here as a witness in another case, should be able to give you exact information about that. I ask that you question him about this matter.
DR. HAENSEL: Try to remember the entry of the troops on the night of 11 March 1938. What kind of troops marched in, according to your recollection? I ask: Were they SS units or were they other units? Were they Army units? Were there SS Verfugungstruppen? What is your recollection?
KALTENBRUNNER: My recollection is that, first of all, there were Wehrmacht units, the Luftwaffe of course, and there was one regiment of the Waffen-SS-I cannot recall which one, probably the Standarte Deutschland-participating in the entry.
DR. HAENSEL: Can you compare the size of the Wehrmacht and the Standarte Deutschland approximately?
KALTENBRUNNER: The Standarte Deutschland at that time had 2,800 men perhaps. So far as the Wehrmacht is concerned, I do not know how many units took part.
DR. HAENSEL: In order to establish the relationship and according to your idea, what is the entire number of SS men? I would like to make it a little easier for you. I have seen a communication in which it is stated that, in all and in the course of time, 750,000 to 1 million men have passed through the SS. Is such a figure correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: One million certainly is too high. All branches of the SS taken together, including the General SS and the Waffen-SS and including the SS members in the various police activities, I believe add up to 720,000 to 750,000 men. Out of that number at least 320,000 to 350,000 men died in action. These losses might even be a little higher than what I 'just stated, but I believe a more precise figure might be obtained from one of the defendants who belonged to the Wehrmacht I do not know it exactly.
DR. HAENSEL: According to your knowledge how many men of this entire number do you believe were connected with concentration camps, that is, with the supervision, administration, and so forth? Can you give me any figure as to just how many were so connected?
KALTENBRUNNER: That is a rather surprising question to me, which I cannot answer immediately. I would have to have pencil and paper in order to make calculations.
DR. HAENSEL: Could you, through your own knowledge . . .
KALTENBRUNNER: Of course, it is only a fraction, a very small fraction of the entire figure.
DR. HAENSEL: Did those SS members, no matter how many or how few they were, who were not connected with the administration of concentration camps have any insight into these conditions or in this administration and the things that took place in the camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: Certainly not.
DR. HAENSEL: How can you tell me that with such certainty?
KALTENBRUNNER: From my own personal knowledge that Himmler and his organization kept the concentration camps behind an iron curtain.
DR. HAENSEL: Were the officials of the office which you headed, for example the Main Security Office, recruited only from the SS or mostly from the SS?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, not at all. The proportion of the SS members to those who did not belong to the SS was 5 percent if I consider only the confidence men and the staff of the SD inside Germany.
DR. HAENSEL: Therefore, for 100 officials, there were 5 who had gone through the SS?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. HAENSEL: According to your knowledge were there regulations prohibiting the physical ill-treatment of concentration camp inmates and were these regulations known in the SS?
KALTENBRUNNER: They were issued in print: that is, contained in nearly every gazette of the Reichsfuehrer SS and the Chief of the German Police. Every SS man knew these regulations were laws, and they were punished heavily if ill-treatment was reported or became evident. I do not know to what extent and in what state the SS Punishment Camp Danzig-Matzgau fell into the hands of the enemy, but I am convinced that all those who underwent a term of imprisonment there will give information about this severe punishment in connection with any ill-treatment which may have occurred.
DR. HAENSEL: I have finished, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
COL. AMEN: Defendant, in order to shorten as much as possible the time of this cross examination, I want to be sure that we understand each other as to just what your position is as to several specific items. Now, first, you concede that you held the title of Chief of the RSHA and Chief of the Security Police and SD from the end of January 1943 up to and including the end of the war. Is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, it applies with those limitations which I enumerated yesterday with regard to my authority in the State and Criminal Police.
COL. AMEN: And when you speak of those limitations, you are referring to this supposed understanding with Himmler? Is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: It was not a supposed understanding with Himmler but a well-established fact which existed from the very first day, that I had the task of establishing a centralized intelligence service in the Reich and that he would retain command in the other sectors.
COL. AMEN: Well, in any event, you concede that you held that title, but you deny that you exercised some of the powers? Correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.,
COL. AMEN: And this title which you held was the same title which was previously held by Heydrich, who had died on 4 June 1942? Is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: There was no change in title?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: And you testified that you assume responsibility for all of the things which you did personally or knew about personally. That is correct, is it not?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I could add one thing, that my title was extended on 14 February 1944, when the Military Intelligence Service of the OKW, Amt Abwehr, was transferred to Himmler by Hitler. Then my tine as Chief of the entire Reich Central Intelligence Service became known in other departments. And I might add also, perhaps, that the capacity of a man or his duties in an intelligence service which not only comprised a big country like the Reich but also extended to foreign countries were not made public. I might refer to England, where the Chief of the Secret Service over other...