dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GRUSS: I can only give the approximate strength of the Stahlhelm. I would estimate it at about one million-that is, those people who were incorporated into the SA from the Stahlhelm. I do not know the strength of the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know approximately how many Stahlhelmer there were in the SA on I September, on or about I September 1939?
GRUSS: No, I cannot say that.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know how many Stahlhelmer there were at the end of the war, approximately?
GRUSS: If you mean how many Stahlhelmer there were in the SA at the end of the War, I cannot answer that question, either But there may have been about 500,000 to 600,000 Stahlhelmer at the end of the war. As everything in Germany was in great confusion, one can only make an estimate.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you really can't give any approximately accurate figures for the Stahlhelm after 1934?
GRUSS: Do you mean the Stahlhelm. as it continued to exist after 1934 as a Bund, or the Stahlhelm which was transferred into the SA?
THE PRESIDENT: I meant the Stahlhelm which were transferred to the SA.
GRUSS: Well, there must have been about one million.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness may retire, and the Court will adjourn. [A recess was taken.]
MAJOR F. ELWYN JONES (Junior Counsel for the United Kingdom): If Your Lordship pleases, would Your Lordship allow me to mention one brief matter?  During the SS case I submitted Document Number 4043-PS, which was a statement by a Polish priest as to the killing of the 846 Polish priests and clergymen at Dachau.  The Tribunal did not accept the document at the time because it did not appear to be in satisfactory form.  Now the Polish delegation wishes me to submit a further certificate from a Dr. Pietrowski, who said that the priest's statement was made to him, in his presence, and in accordance with the stipulations of Polish law, and that is what constitutes in English law a solemn declaration. I discussed this matter with Dr. Pelckmann and he has no objection to the document going in in its present form."
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the matter. You may put in the document.
MAJOR JONES: Thank you. There are copies in Russian, French, and German.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. BOEHM, have you another witness?
HERR BOEHM: May I be permitted to call the witness Ji1ttner?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. [The witness Juettnertook the stand.] Will you state your full name, please?
MAX JUETTNER (Witness): Max Juettner.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
HERR BOEHM: Herr Juettner, from 1934 until 1945 you were Chief of the main office "Leadership of the SA," and beginning with 1939 you were, simultaneously, permanent Deputy Chief of Staff of the SA. You are familiar with all questions concerning the SA even before 1933, are you not?
JUETTNER: I only assumed my responsibilities in the Supreme SA Leadership 1 November 1933. From the records and from conversations with the Chief of Staff, R6hm, and my comrades, I am however informed on all essential matters concerning the SA even -before this time.
HERR BOEHM: What did you do until your appointment to the SA leadership? What was your profession and political background?
JUETTNER: Originally, I was a professional officer from 1906 until 1920. After my honorable discharge from the Army I entered the Central German Mining Company. There I started as a common laborer in the mines, but in the course of the years I worked my way up to a high office position of a large concern. Politically I belonged after 1920 to the German National People's Party for several years. Later I belonged to no party; but from 1920, 1 had, besides my job, a leading position in the Central German Stahlhelm.
HERR BOEHM: What were the reasons for your appointment into the SA leadership?
JUETTNER: My appointment into the SA leadership was connected with the incorporation of the Stahlhelm into the SA. The Central German Stahlhelm enjoyed a good reputation even among its political opponents. My especially good relations with the miners and also with the trade unions were well known to Röhm. The Central German Stahlhelm was especially successful i n the social field. All this might have contributed to my appointment. I left the mining industry voluntarily and became a professional SA Fuehrer. In the summer of 1934 1 was taken into the Party.
HERR BOEHM: That means, you came from the Stahlhelm into, the SA?
JUETTNER: Yes.
HERR BOEHM: Besides you, did other leaders of the Stahlhelm get into important positions in the SA?
JUETTNER: I am unable to give you complete figures on that without referring to statistical material. But some time ago I compiled from memory the names of 60 higher and intermediate SA leaders who were formerly members of the Stahlhelm. That means that many former Stahlhelm members were given leading positions in the SA. In the course of time all key positions in the Stahlhelm: the Leadership Office, the Chief of the Office of the Chief of Staff ... HERR BÖTTNER: In the SA. All key positions in the SA were filled, in the course of time, with Stahlhelmer. They could be found in the Leadership Office, in important positions in the Personnel Office, as Chief of the Office of the Chief of Staff, as Head of the Training Department, and also in the group staffs and as leaders of units.
HERR BOEHM: Can it be said that the positions held by former Stahlhelmer in the SA were such that they were of little influence on the bulk of the SA?
JUETTNER: That cannot be said. These SA leaders who came from the Stahlhelm. and who held these positions, had considerable influence on the education, training, and activity of the SA.
HERR BOEHM: About half an hour ago, a witness by the name of Gruss was examined here who was never a member of the SA, who did not know the conditions in the SA from personal experience, but who testified on a series of questions to which, in my opinion, only an SA man could supply the answers. Did you, during your membership in the SA from the year 1934 until the dissolution of this organization, ever observe any opposition on the part of the SA members who had come from the Stahlhelm?
JUETTNER: I can answer this question clearly and unequivocally with "no." Numerous SA men came to me in the first few months who had formerly belonged to the Stahlhelm. Like myself they felt regret that their fine old organization was no longer in existence, but they, as well as I, hailed the fact that they were now permitted to participate in this great community of the SA.
HERR BOEHM: Did you ever hear of any opposition on the part of these people who had come from the Stahlhelm? Did other SA men complain about this? J_UTTNER: If I understand you correctly, you are talking of men who were already in the SA?
HERR BOEHM: Yes, men who transferred or were transferred from the Stahlhelm into the SA in the years 1933 and 1934.
JUETTNER: These men, as far as I know, never opposed the SA. I know of no such opposition.
HERR BOEHM: What was the strength of the SA in the year 1933? J_UTTNER: In 1933 the SA had 300,000 men.
HERR BOEHM: And how many members were transferred into the SA in the years 1933 and 1934?
JUETTNER: You mean members of the Stahlhelm.?
HERR BOEHM: Yes, members of the Stahlhelm. J_UTTNER: When the Stahlhelm was incorporated into the SA, the Stahlhelm had approximately 1,000,000. members, perhaps a little more. More than half of these were incorporated into the SA, about 550,000 men. This figure is identical with that which the former Bundesfòhrer Seldte has given.
HERR BOEHM: Do you differentiate between the Kern-Stahlhelm and another formation of the Stahlhelm? Would you say that the total of the men coming from the Stahlhelm who were taken over into the SA was approximately 1,000,000?
JUETTNER: After the Stahlhelm was dissolved-I believe that occurred in 1935-it is quite possible that altogether 1,000,000 men came into the SA from the Stahlhelm.
HERR BOEHM: Well, then the ratio in the years 1933 and 1934 was such that the SA consisted of two-thirds Stahlhelmer and of one-third SA men?
JUETTNER: Added to this in 1933-1934 was the SA Reserve II the Kyffhäuserbund. Therefore, the above-mentioned ratio of two-thirds to one-third is not quite correct. But if the original figure, the original strength of the SA as of January 1933 is taken into consideration, then what you have just said is true.
HERR BOEHM: Then, shortly after 1933, the SA experienced a tremendous increase, that is from the original figure of 300,000 it grew to about 4,500,000 men by 1935; is that -correct?
JUETTNER: By 1934 that is true, yes.
HERR BOEHM: Then the Supreme SA Leadership tried to reduce the SA since many people had joined who really had no business there, and by 1939 approximately 3,000,000 men were again eliminated from the SA, so that in 1939 the SA had approximately 1,500,000 members left; is that correct?
JUETTNER: Yes; that is quite correct. The figure of 1,500,000 had however already been reached several years before. The reduction of- the SA was brought about through eliminating: (1) The SA Reserve II, the Kyffhäuserbund, with about 1,500,000 members. (2) After the death of R6hm, the NSKK. (3) Very many SA men who were active in the Political Leadership, such as Blockleiter, Zellenleiter, and so forth. (4) Chief of Staff Lutze eliminated all those men who for professional or other reasons could not serve or did not wish to serve.
HERR BOEHM: Did you notice that in the course of the reduction of this number from 4,500,000 to 1,500,000 particularly many Stahlhelm members or former Stahlhelm members were eliminated from the SA?
JUETTNER: In this connection I might perhaps refer to the Stahlhelm. in Central Germany, of which I was the head. There, in the large industrial region around Halle, my old Stahlhelm organization after 1935 was actually the nucleus of the SA, which shows that still very many Stahlhelmer had remained in the SA.
HERR BOEHM: And those were the Stahlhelmer who remained in the SA till the end, till the SA was disbanded?
JUETTNER: Yes; and they were not the worst ones.
HERR BOEHM: If now in 1935 and the following years the individual SA man who had come from the Stahlhelm had had the desire to leave the SA, could he have done so?
JUETTNER: He could have done so without difficulty.
HERR BOEHM: Would it have resulted in particular difficulties for him?
JUETTNER: As far as the SA was concerned none whatsoever.
HERR BOEHM: The witness Gruss asserted among other things that such a case would have made it impossible for him to join the army as an officer for example, because his papers would have carried the remark: "Discharged from the SA." Is that correct? J-UTTNF,R: The witness Gruss seems to have confused matters. He who was punished with discharge from the SA because he had committed an offense of some kind, did, it is true, receive an entry on his papers, "Discharged from the SA," and the effect was the same as a previous conviction in ordinary life.
HERR BOEHM: Well, then you are able to say, in order to make a long story short, that by far the larger part of the Stah1helmer who entered the SA in 1933, or at the latest in 1934, were and remained loyal comrades of yours; is that correct?
JUETTNER: They were and remained my best comrades.
HERR BOEHM: What was the attitude of the Chief of Staff toward the Party leadership and the State leadership?
JUETTNER: Röhm was a strong personality. His word carried great weight in the Party leadership. As a Reich Minister ...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. B6hm, the Tribunal would like to know whether your case is that the SA, after the incorporation of the Stah1helm, was a voluntary organization or was involuntary, so far as the Stahlhelm was concerned.
HERR BOEHM: If I understood the question correctly, Mr. President, I can say that the Stahlhelm was a voluntary organization, and that it came into the SA on account of an order.
THE PRESIDENT: There seems to be a certain difference of view between the two witnesse s that you have called. The Tribunal wants to know what your case was, whether your case is that the SA, after incorporation of the Stah1helm, was a voluntary organization.
HERR BOEHM: After the Stahlhelm was incorporated into the SA, it was of course deprived of its voluntary character, and the organization, that is, each and every member of the Stah1helm, became a member of the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: And was voluntary, you mean, or was in voluntary?
HERR BOEHM: The Stahlhelm was incorporated into the SY on account of an order and after its incorporation lost its character as an independent organization: it became SA, and each and every former member of the Stahlhelm became a member of the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: What I want to know is whether you con tend, having become members of the SA, it was voluntary or in voluntary?
HERR BOEHM: That is, in my opinion, in connection with Paragraph 6 of the Resolution of 13 March 1945, a legal question. I contend that they became members of the SA on the strength o order and not, in the last analysis, of their own volition. I repeat on the strength of an order.
THE PRESIDENT: You say they were involuntarily incorporate into the SA, involuntary members of the SA?
HERR BOEHM: That is not exactly right, Mr. President. I an saying that they involuntarily got into the SA on the strength o the order, certainly the majority of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. BOEHM, I don't doubt what the witness said. I heard what the witness said, and I heard what the last witness said. Mr. Biddle wants to know what your case is. Are you saying that the Stahlhelm, after it has been incorporated into the SA-those members of the Stahlhelm who were incorporate into the SA were involuntary members or were voluntary members.  It is for you to make up your mind which case you are putting forward. Possibly it might make my meaning more clear for you case-they could resign from the SA or they could not resign?
HERR BOEHM: That was not supposed to be the subject of m presentation of evidence, Mr. President. I wanted to show, first of all, that the Stahlhelm was incorporated into the SA on the strength of an order, in other words, involuntarily. This was probably the consensus of opinion among the bulk of the Stahlhelm. Whether and to what extent they could or could not resign later is the point I want to clarify through this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, go on, Dr. BOEHM. At some stage no doubt you will be able to tell us which of the witnesses you adopt.
HERR BOEHM: Witness, I should like you to continue with you testimony on the question: What was the attitude of the Chief of Staff toward the Party leadership and the State leadership? You said that Chief of Staff Röhmwas a strong personality and that consequently his word carried great weight in the Party leadership.  Now I should like you to continue, please.
JUETTNER: Röhm was Reich Minister, and as such he endeavored to exert his influence on the Government in order to pursue his aims. Chief of Staff Lutze was only a Reichsleiter in the Party. In spite of that fact he had no influence on the Party leadership. In the last few years, already before the war, he avoided Gauand Reichsleiter meetings. Lutze did not become a Reich Minister; therefore he had no influence whatsoever on the conduct of Government affairs. Chief of Staff Schepmann was neither Reichsleiter nor Reich Minister. When after 30 June 1934 the SA was reduced to insignificance, the influence of the Chiefs of Staff on Party and Government leadership had disappeared.
HERR BOEHM: And what was the relation of the Chiefs of Staff to the Leadership Corps of the SA? Were the latter kept informed of everything that was planned and intended to be achieved?
JUETTNER: At the leaders' meetings and at training courses in the SA schools, the Chiefs of Staff kept their Leadership Corps informed as to their aims and tasks, especially about the educational tasks of the SA. At the leaders' meetings there was always an open discussion.
HERR BOEHM: What do you think of the Leadership Corps before and after the death of R6hm?
JUETTNER: I know the Leadership of the SA, its aims, and the SA leaders, especially the higher SA leaders, very well. I do not propose to gloss over anything. A small fraction of SA leaders who had turned out to be mere troopers was eliminated. Even those SA leaders had in the past, during the first World War as brave soldiers, and later as members of the Free Corps under the government of Ebert and Noske, deserved well of their country. Their attitude and their way of life, however, were opposed to the principles of-the SA, therefore they had to leave. But the rest, that is the bulk of the SA Leadership Corps, were decent and -clean, and irreproachable in their sense of - justice and duty.
HERR BOEHM: Tell us about the professional Leadership Corps.
JUETTNER: As to the active leaders, the Obergruppenfuehrer and the Gruppenfuehrer, I know their history, their way of life and their political and ethical attitude. Apart from the insignificant number who had to leave, these SA leaders were irreproachable. Not one of them had a police record, not one of them was what one might call a failure, all of them had a civil profession before they were taken into the Leadership Corps of the SA. Their way of life was simple and modest. They received, however, in relation to comparable positions of civil servants or business men, extremely low salaries. All incomes from other sources were charged against them; there was no one in the SA who was allowed more than one source of income; no one could enrich himself personally owing to his position, and only he could spend money on social activities who had means of his own. Of the Gruppenfuehrer and Obergruppenfuehrer who in 1939 were active in the SA Leadership Corps or with the SA Gruppen, half the number lost their lives in the war. They gave their lives in the belief that they had fought for a just cause. They were patriots, and they committed no wrong or ungodly acts. And even today, I pride myself on having belonged to such an upright leadership corps.
HERR BOEHM: Were the SA leaders paid?
JUETTNER: Up to 1933 there were no paid SA leaders. Only the leaders of the so-called Untergruppen, of which there was one in each Gau, received a remuneration of about 300 marks a month. After 1933 a wage scale was established. In 1940 there was a small increase in pay. The maximum basic salary for an Obergruppenfuehrer was 1,200 marks a month. From Scharfuerer up to Obersturmbannfuehrer inclusive, all SA leaders, with the exception of the auxiliary personnel, were honorary workers. Of the entire Leadership Corps, including the nominal leaders, roughly two percent were paid.
HERR BOEHM: How was the SA Leadership Corps organized?
JUETTNER: In the SA we differentiated between: SA leaders, SA administrative leaders, SA medical leaders. The SA leaders formed the leadership staffs and led the units. The SA administrative leaders handled the budget, financial matters, and the audit. Together with the administrative leaders of the other branches and of the Party they formed a special leadership body and had to follow the directive of the Reich Treasurer.  The medial leaders were physicians and pharmacists; they were charged with the medical care of the SA.  The administrative and medical leaders had no influence whatsoever on the running of the SA, and they had no right to that.  Besides, the SA had leaders for special purposes, the so-called "ZV" leaders and honorary leaders, some of whom are among the main defendants here.
HERR BOEHM: Was not one of the main defendants an honorary leader?
JUETTNER: Yes, I believe several of them were honorary leaders, such as Goering, Frank, Sauckel, Von Schirach, Streicher, and, to my knowledge, perhaps Hess and Bormann. I might add in this conne ction that the honorary leaders were never informed about the business affairs of the SA. They had neither the opportunity nor the authority to exert any influence on training, leadership, or use of the SA. They had merely the right to wear the SA uniform and, at meetings and festivities, to take their positions in the ranks of the SA leadership. Even Hermann G6ring -who in 1923 headed the SA temporarily when it numbered but a few thousand men-no longer exerted any influence on the SA after that time, nor did he have any time to do so. His nomination as chief of the "Standarte Feldherrnhalle" was only a formal honor, similar to the honors that were extended in the days of the Kaiser to military leaders of merit, or members-even feminine members of royal families. Herr Frank was appointed leader of the SA for the former Government General by Chief of Staff Lutze. That too was and remained only a formal honor, because the administration itself was carried out by a special administrative staff under Brigadefuehrer Peltz, and later Kuehnmund. He did not receive any orders concerning the administration of the SA in that region from the Chief of Staff. Such orders went to the administrative staff who, in turn, were responsible to the Supreme SA Leadership. The "ZV" leaders for special purposes whom I have mentioned could temporarily be called in for duty if they were willing. They were advisory duties, for example on 1~gal and social questions.
HERR BOEHM: Of what types of people did the SA in general consist?
JUETTNER: From the beginning, the SA was made up of former soldiers of the first World War, that is, soldiers and young idealists who loved their country above all. The SA was not, as the witness Gisevius asserted, a mob of criminals or gangsters, but rather, as Sinclair Lewis is said to have written, pure idealists. Many clergymen, many students of theology, belonged to the SA as active members, some until the 'very end. Each and every SA man will be able to confirm that never at any time were criminal actions demanded of him, and that the SA leadership never pursued criminal aims.
HERR BOEHM: Are you in a position to give us figures with respect to those members of the SA who came into conflict with existing laws?
JUETTNER: In some of the internment camps where thousands of former SA members from all parts of the Reich are interned, investigations were made and the result can very well be applied to judge the entire SA. It was found that of the SA men interned, not even I percent-to be exact, 0.65 percent-had previously been punished as criminals. Opposed to that are the findings of the Reich Bureau of Statistics establishing that 1.67 percent of the entire population of the former Reich was subject to previous convictions.
HERR BOEHM: But how can you explain that in the years 1933 and 1934, for example, excesses and abuses were committed by members of the SA, such as are asserted in the Indictment?
JUETTNER: These excesses cannot and shall not be excused. They are excesses such as occur in every revolutionary movement, for example the German revolution in 1918, or similar incidents in the past in other countries. These excesses were revolutionary actions of dissatisfied political fighters.
HERR BOEHM: Are not there perhaps still other explanations for these excesses?