dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. MERKEL: Did you know that he and his immediate associates came from the Bavarian Political Police, as it existed before 1933? Goering: I did not know that; I knew only that he came from Bavaria.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that the Secret State Police did not take part in the disturbances on 9 November 1938? Goering: It has always been my conviction that they did not take part in them. I saw a document here which instructed them not to intervene. I do not believe that they took part.
DR. MERKEL: If I understood you correctly, you said recently that on this 9th of November, after your return to Berlin, you at once called up the chief of the Gestapo. Did you make this call only because you wanted more precise information, or did you make it because you thought the Gestapo had taken an active part in these disturbances, had organized them and carried them out? Goering: If I had been convinced that the Gestapo had instigated the disturbances I would certainly not have asked them for information. I gave the order to my collaborators through the police, and in this case through the Gestapo, because they had the necessary connections, or to the criminal police -- it was all the same to me. I could address myself only to the Chief of Police, who was Heydrich, and say that I wanted a report quickly on what had happened; a report which merely stated the facts.
DR. MERKEL: It is correct that when you gave up your position as Chief of the Police to Himmler you made the statement that it was unworthy of a German official to ill-treat prisoners, and that you would not fail to deal most severely with any officials who were guilty of such acts? Goering: The speech I made on this occasion is known and it contains such passages.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that there was an order from the Reich Security Main Office -- that is, issued after your resignation -- which forbade any official or employee of the state police, under threat of the most severe punishment, to beat prisoners or ill-treat them? Goering: It is possible. I no longer know what orders were issued after my resignation.
DR. MERKEL: Putting this question in the negative, is it known to you that there never was an order to manhandle prisoners or torture them, either at the time when you were chief of the Secret State Police or later? Goering: I can only say with absolute certainty that I did not issue or permit any such order. I no longer know what was or was not issued in this connection at a later date or in provinces other than Prussia.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything to the effect that, contrary to these orders, such acts regularly took place in the Gestapo; or rather, if such an act did take place, did it have to do only with individual cases or individual excesses? Goering: At the time when I was still directly connected with the Gestapo such excesses did, as I have openly stated, take place. In order to punish them, one naturally had to find out about them. Punishments were administered. The officials knew that if they did such things they ran the risk of being punished. A large number of them were punished. I cannot say what the practice was later.
DR. MERKEL: I have no more questions.
HERR LUDWIG BABEL (Counsel for SS): Witness, did the same conditions apply for the appointment of honorary leaders in the SS as in the SA? Goering: Yes, I believe so.
HERR BABEL: Are you familiar with the directives or other regulations regarding the appointment of honorary leaders? Goering: No.
HERR BABEL: Was it possible to refuse the appointment? Goering: Yes, I believe so.
HERR BABEL: Do you know what the reasons were for the expansion of the Waffen-SS into the large permanent organization existing after 1939? Goering: The first divisions of the Waffen-SS, which consisted of the best specially selected human material, fought with outstanding bravery in combat. Consequently the Fuehrer gladly agreed to Himmler's suggestion that still more divisions be set up. The Army and also the Air Force did make some protest, and quite rightly, because this creaming off of the best voluntary material meant that men of that type, who would have made equally good officers, were partly lost to the Army and the Air Force, and therefore they opposed this expansion. Also, in the beginning, the Fuehrer was not very keen to have armed formations of any appreciable size outside the ranks of the Armed Forces, but he gave way more and more. When replacement difficulties became even more acute as the war went on, Himmler more or less deceived the Fuehrer with the statement that he was in a position to provide a large number of SS divisions, that this would create a greater attraction for recruiting, and so on. This, of course, was welcome news to the Fuehrer since he needed troops badly. But in point of fact already at that time Himmler was using altogether different methods which had not much in common with purely voluntary recruiting, and he created first of all on paper a number of new SS divisions and cadres. At that time he had not the men for this. He then told the Fuehrer, "I have transferred my best UnterFuehrer from the other SS divisions to these new ones." For this and other reasons replacements in men did not flow in and the Army and the Air Force, especially the Air Force, were those who bore the brunt of this. I now had to help fill these SS divisions with men from the ground staffs and from the antiaircraft batteries. This aroused much dissatisfaction among the men in the Air Force, because none of them wanted to volunteer for these formations.
HERR BABEL: But in the end the Fuehrer ordered that men be taken from the reserve units of the Army and, as far as I remember, from naval reserves also. I can speak only for that contingent which was taken from the Air Force by coercion and by command. I should estimate, without reference to official records that there were at least about 50,000 men and officers. Then because this aroused such strong feeling, I arranged that all men from the Air Force who were to be used for land fighting in the future should no longer go to the SS, but to the new parachute divisions which were to be formed. The Fuehrer agreed, because the last phase of the war the parachute divisions proved to be the most trusty and the most distinguished in the whole Armed Forces, and superior to the SS in fighting spirit and power of resistance. From then on no further contingents of the Air Force were incorporate into the SS, and, as far as I know, no more SS divisions were created
HERR BABEL: I have no further questions.
DR. HANS LATERNSER: Witness, what was the attitude of the General Staff of the Army towards the possibility of being involv in a war with other powers? Goering: Their attitude was, if I may say so, purely profession that is to say, the General Staff had to study theoretically and practically all the possibilities and contingencies of a war. Its attitude toward its own tasks and conceptions was -- I must say this openly -- very reticent and timid one for a general staff. This is probably be attributed to the fact that most of the General Staff officers had come from the Reichswehr. The whole attitude of mind in small Reichswehr during the last decade and a half was such that they could hardly imagine that a military clash might come, and consequently a much more pacific attitude than is normally the cas with soldiers was to be found among the General Staff of the Army.
DR. LATERNSER: Do you know generals or admirals who urge and incited war? Goering: No.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Chief Prosecutors wish to cross examine?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You are perhaps aware that you are the only living man who can expound to us the true purposes of th Nazi Party and the inner workings of its leadership? Goering: I am perfectly aware of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You, from the very beginning, together with those who were associated with you, intended to overthrow and later did overthrow, the Weimar Republic? Goering: That was, as far as I am concerned, my firm intention.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And, upon coming to power, you immediately abolished parliamentary government in Germany? Goering: We found it to be no longer necessary. Also I should like to emphasize the fact that we were moreover the strongest parliamentary party, and had the majority. But you are correct, when you say that parliamentary procedure was done away with, because the various parties were disbanded and forbidden.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You established the Leadership Principle, which you have described as a system under which authority existed only at the top, and is passed downwards and is imposed on the people below; is that correct? Goering: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, I should like once more to explain the idea briefly, as I understand it. In German parliamentary procedure in the past responsibility rested with the highest officials, who were responsible for carrying out the anonymous wishes of the majorities, and it was they who exercised the authority. In the Leadership Principle we sought to reverse the direction, that is, the authority existed at the top and passed downwards, while the responsibility began at the bottom and passed upwards.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In other words, you did not believe in and did not permit government, as we call it, by consent of the governed, in which the people, through their representatives, were the source of power and authority? Goering: That is not entirely correct. We repeatedly called on the people to express unequivocally and clearly what they thought of our system, only it was in a different way from that previously adopted and from the system in practice in other countries. We chose the way of a so-called plebiscite. We also took the point of view that even a government founded on the Leadership Principle could maintain itself only if it was based in some way on the confidence of the people. If it no longer had such confidence, then it would have to rule with bayonets, and the Fuehrer was always of the opinion that that was impossible in the long run -- to rule against the will of the people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you did not permit the election of those who should act with authority by the people, but they were designated from the top downward continuously, were they not? Goering: Quite right. The people were merely to acknowledge the authority of the Fuehrer, or, let us say, to declare themselves in agreement with the Fuehrer. If they gave the Fuehrer their confidence, then it was their concern to exercise the other functions. Thus, not the individual persons were to be selected according to the will of the people, but solely the leadership itself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, was this Leadership Principle supported and adopted by you in Germany because you believed that no people are capable of self-government, or because you believed that some may be, not the German people; or that no matter whether some of us are capable of using our own system, it should not be allowed in Germany? Goering: I beg your pardon, I did not quite understand the question, but I could perhaps answer it as follows: I consider the Leadership Principle necessary because the system which previously existed, and which we called parliamentary or democratic, had brought Germany to the verge of ruin. I might perhaps in this connection remind you that your own President Roosevelt, as far as I can recall -- I do not want to quote it word for word -- declared, "Certain peoples in Europe have forsaken democracy, not because they did not wish for democracy as such, but because democracy had brought forth men who were too weak to give their people work and bread, and to satisfy them. For this reason the peoples have abandoned this system and the men belonging to it." There is much truth in that statement. This system had brought ruin by mismanagement and according to my own opinion, only an organization made up of a strong, clearly defined leadership hierarchy could restore order again. But, let it be understood, not against the will of the people, but only when the people, having in the course of time, and by means of a series of elections, grown stronger and stronger, had expressed their wish to entrust their destiny to the National Socialist leadership.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The principles of the authoritarian government which you set up required, as I understand you, that there be tolerated no opposition by political parties which might defeat or obstruct the policy of the Nazi Party? Goering: You have understood this quite correctly. By that time we had lived long enough with opposition and we had had enough of it. Through opposition we had been completely ruined. It was now time to have done with it and to start building up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After you came to power, you regarded it necessary, in order to maintain power, to suppress all opposition parties? Goering: We found it necessary not to permit any more opposition, yes.
MR.TUSTICE JACKSON: And you also held it necessary that you should suppress all individual opposition lest it should develop into a party of opposition? Goering: Insofar as opposition seriously hampered our work of building up, this opposition of individual persons was, of course, not tolerated. Insofar as it was simply a matter of harmless talk, it was considered to be of no consequence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, in order to make sure that you suppressed the parties, and individuals also, you found it necessary to have a secret political police to detect opposition? Goering: I have already stated that I considered that necessary, just as previously the political police had existed, but on a firmer basis and larger scale.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And upon coming to power you also considered it immediately necessary to establish concentration camps to take care of your incorrigible opponents? Goering: I have already stated that the reason for the concentration camps was not because it could be said, "Here are a number of people who are opposed to us and they must be taken into protective custody." Rather they were set up as a lightning measure against the functionaries of the Communist Party who were attacking us in the thousands, and who, since they were taken into protective custody, were not put in prison. But it was necessary, as I said, to erect a camp for them -- one, two, or three camps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you are explaining, as the high authority of this system, to men who do not understand it very well, and I want to know what was necessary to run the kind of system that you set up in Germany. The concentration camp was one of the things you found immediately necessary upon coming into power, was it not? And you set them up as a matter of necessity, as you saw it? Goering: That was faultily translated -- it went too fast. But I believe I have understood the sense of your remarks. You asked me if I considered it necessary to establish concentration camps immediately in order to eliminate opposition. Is that correct?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your answer is "yes," I take it? Goering: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was it also necessary, in operating this system, that you must not have persons entitled to public trials in independent courts? And you immediately issued an order that your political police would not be subject to court review or to court orders, did you not? Goering: You must differentiate between the two categories; those who had committed some act of treason against the new state, or those who, might be proved to have committed such an act, were naturally turned over to the courts. The others, however, of whom one might expect such acts, but who had not yet committed them, were taken into protective custody, and these were the people who were taken to concentration camps. I am now speaking of what happened at the beginning. Later things changed a great deal. Likewise, if for political reasons -- to answer your question -- someone was taken into protective custody, that is, purely for reasons of state, this could not be reviewed or stopped by any court. Later, when some people were also taken into protective custody for nonpolitical reasons, people who had opposed the system in some other way, I once, as Prussian Prime Minister and Reich Minister of the Interior, I remember...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let's omit that. I have not asked for that. If you will just answer my question, we shall save a great deal of time. Your counsel will be permitted to bring out any explanations you want to make. You did prohibit all court review and considered it necessary to prohibit court review of the causes for taking people into what you called protective custody? Goering: That I answered very clearly, but I should like to make an explanation in connection with my answer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your counsel will see to that. Now, the concentration camps and the protective custody...
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, the Tribunal thinks the witness ought to be allowed to make what explanation he thinks right in answer to this question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Tribunal thinks that you should be permitted to explain your answer now, and it will listen to your answers.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not mean that to apply generally to his answers. I meant it to apply to this particular answer. Goering: In connection with your question that these cases could not be reviewed by the court, I want to say that a decree was issued through me and Frick jointly to the effect that those who were turned over to concentration camps were to be informed after 24 hours of the reason for their being turned over, and that after 48 hours, or some short period of time, they should have the right to an attorney. But this by no means rescinded my order that a review was not permitted by the courts of a politically necessary measure of protective custody. These people were simply to be given an opportunity of making a protest.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Protective custody meant that you were taking people into custody who had not committed any crimes but who, you thought, might possibly commit a crime? Goering: Yes. People were arrested and taken into protective custody who had not yet committed any crime, but who could be expected to do so if they remained free, just as extensive protective measures are being taken in Germany today on a tremendous scale.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, it is also a necessity, in the kind of state that you had, that you have some kind of organization to carry propaganda down to the people and to get their reaction and inform the leadership of it, is it not? Goering: The last part of that question has not been intelligibly translated.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you had to have organizations to carry out orders and to carry your propaganda in that kind of state, didn't you? Goering: Of course, we carried on propaganda, and for this we had a propaganda orgranization.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you carried that on through the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, did you not? Goering: The Leadership Corps was there, of course, partly to spread our ideas among the people. Secondly, its purpose was to lead and organize the people who made up the Party.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Through your system of Gauleiter and Kreisleiter down to Blockleiter, commands and information went down from the authority, and information as to the people's reactions came back to the leadership, didnt it? Goering: That is correct. The orders and commands that were to be given for propaganda or other purposes were passed down the grades as far as necessary. On the other hand, it was a matter of course that the reactions of the broad masses of the people were again transmitted upwards, through the various offices, in order to keep us informed of the mood of the people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Amd you also had to have certain organizations to carry out orders -- executive organizations, organizations to fight for you if necessary, did you not? Goering: Yes, administrative organizations were, of course, necessary. I do not quite understand -- organizations to fight what?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, if you wanted certain people killed you had to have some organization that would kill them, didn't you? Rohm and the rest of them were not killed by Hitler's own hands nor by yours, were they? Goering: Rohm -- the Rohm affair I explained here clearly -- that was a matter of State necessity...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I did not ask you... Goering: ... and was carried out by the police.
MR-TUSTICE JACKSON: But when it was State necessity to kill somebody, you had to have somebody to do it, didn't you? Goering: Yes, just as in other countries, whether it is called secret service or something else, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SA, the SS, and the SD, organizations of that kind, were the organizations that carried out the orders and dealt with people on a physical level, were they not? Goering: The SA never received an order to kill anybody, neither did the SS, not in my time. Anyhow, I had no influence on it. I know that orders were given for executions, namely in the Rohm Putsch, and these were carried out by the police, that is, by a State organ.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What police? Goering: As far as I recall, through the Gestapo. At any rate, that was the organization that received the order. You see, it was a fight against enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SS was for the same purpose, was it not? Goering: Not in north Germany at that time; to what extent that was the case in south Germany, where the Gestapo and the SS were still separated, and who carried out the action in south Germany, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, the SS carried out arrests and carried out the transportation of people to concentration camps, didn't they? You were arrested by the SS, weren't you? Goering: Yes, I say, yes; but later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At what time did the SS perform this function of acting as the executor of the Nazi Party? Goering: After the seizure of power, when the police came to be more and more in the hands of Himmler. It is difficult for me to explain to an outsider where the SS or where the Gestapo was active. I have already said that the two of them worked very closely together. It is known that the SS guarded the camps and later carried out police functions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And carried out other functions in the camps? Goering: To what functions do you refer?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They carried out all of the functions of the camps, didn't they? Goering: If an SS unit was guarding a camp and an SS leader happened to be the camp commander, then this unit carried out all the functions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, this system was not a secret system. This entire system was openly avowed, its merits were publicly advocated by yourself and others, and every person entering into the Nazi Party was enabled to know the kind of system of government you were going to set up, wasn't he? Goering: Every person who entered the Party knew that we embraced the Leadership Principle and knew the fundamental measures we wanted to carry out, so far as they were stated in the program. But not everyone who joined the Party knew down to the last detail what was going to happen later.