dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON SCHIRACH: He could ask for an interview, but he did not get it; he received an answer from Bormann, usually in the form of a telegram. That happened to me very frequently, because I made such requests; one was asked to submit in writing the points one wanted to discuss, after which one either received an answer or did not receive one.
DR.SERVATIUS: Witness, a letter has been submitted here as Document D-728, signed or initialed by Gauleiter Sprenger. You were here when it was submitted and you know the document. I have two questions concerning it. Do you know anything about a list, which was to be compiled, containing the names of those suffering from heart and lung diseases, who were to be removed from the population?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I know nothing about that.
DR. SERVATIUS: Or that you were to make suggestions for this to the Fuehrer?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SERVATIUS: In my opinion that document also contains an error which has already been mentioned here, namely, the word "Herr" as a form of address. This letter was addressed to the "Herren Ortsgruppenleiter," and repeated mention is made of the "Herren Kreisleiter and Ortsgruppenleiter" in the text. I ask you now if the expression "Herr" was customary in Party language?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I have never known 'e Party document with the exception of this one, which I consider a fraud, in which the term "Herr" was used.
DR. SERVATIUS: You are therefore of the opinion that that designation proves in itself that the document is false?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER: Herr Van Schirach, your predecessor as Gauleiter was Josef Buerckel. What sort of relations existed between Buerckel and Seyss-Inquart?
VON SCHIRACH: I can only repeat what was generally known in the Party about relations between them. They were extremely bad, and all of us had the impression that from the very beginning Buerckel worked hard to push Seyss-Inquart out.
DR. STEINBAUER: Which one of the two really had the power in his hands?
VON SCHIRACH: Buerckel, undoubtedly.
DR. STEINBAUER: Who, in your opinion and according to the actual information you obtained from the files, is responsible for the persecution of Jews in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: Hitler.
DR. STEINBAUER: All right. You say Hitler; but Hitler was not in Vienna. Who carried out these orders in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: In my opinion, these orders were carried out -even during Buerckel's and Seyss-Inquart's time-by the same man who has already been mentioned here once today and who, in the meantime, has been condemned to death in Vienna-Dr. Brunner.
DR. STEINBAUER: Good. Are you aware that Seyss-Inquart repeatedly protested to Buerckel about excessively severe measures and quarreled with Buerckel on account of that?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot say anything about that. I do not know.
DR. STEINBAUER: My client has been accused in a document of presenting to Adolf Hitler tapestries, among them Gobelins, formerly in the Emperor's possession. Do you know anything about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I know this: In the large collection of Gobelins in Vienna, there were two sets depicting Alexander's victory. The inferior series was loaned by Reich Governor Seyss-Inquart to the Reich Chancellery, where it hung in the lobby.
DR. STEINBAUER: So it was a loan and not a definite gift, which would have entailed a loss for Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: In the catalog of the Gobelin collection this set was marked as a loan.
DR. STEINBAUER: Are you aware that other Gobelins were put at the disposal of the Reich-that is to say, at Adolf Hitler's disposal-by Seyss-Inquart?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I was not aware of it.
DR. STEINBAUER: But maybe you know who did take away other such Gobelins and tapestries?
VON SCHIRACH: I assume that you allude to Buerckel.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know for certain whether Buerckel took Gobelins. When I took up my appointment in Vienna, I found that Buerckel had taken from the imperial furniture depot a number of pieces of furniture including, I believe, some carpets, not for his personal use but for a Viennese house which he intended to establish in Gau Saarpfalz as a sort of clubhouse. I therefore approached the competent office in Berlin-I do not know whether it was the Reich Finance Ministry or the Reich Ministry of Culture-and when I was not successful there, I approached Hitler himself. In the end I succeeded in having Buerckel ordered to return these objects to Vienna at once; I cannot say with certainty whether these objects were in fact returned. I know that he received injunctions to return them and I assume that these objects were really returned later.
DR. STEINBAUER: All right. You know from statements which I have made to your defense counsel that we Austrians always hated Buerckel intensely for a number of very good reasons and that in fairness it must be admitted that many things, including, for instance, the city's food supplies, improved after you took over. For this reason it seems to me all the more important to clear up completely the most serious charge against you. You have been made responsible in your capacity of Reich Defense Commissioner for the destruction of the most valuable monuments in Vienna. I ask you: On 2 April, when your deputy Scharizer and Engineer Blaschke, the National Socialist mayor, wanted to declare Vienna an open city as the Red Army approached, did you oppose them and give orders that Vienna must be defended to the last? Or who gave that order?
VON SCHIRACH: Neither Blaschke nor Scharizer expressed the view that Vienna should be declared an open city. There was...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, the Tribunal understands you are appearing for the Defendant Seyss-Inquart?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, because this is a War Crime and in the light of conspiracy he is responsible for everything and the main charge made against Herr Von Schirach must be clarified-that is, we must find out who actually gave this order which did so much harm.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, but you just said that you were not asking the questions in defense of Seyss-Inquart, but in defense of Von Schirach. I do not think that the Tribunal really ought to have the defense of Von Schirach prolonged by questions by other counsel. We have already had his defense for a considerable time presented by Dr. Sauter.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I shall not put this question. Do you also remember what attitude Seyss-Inquart adopted on Church matters when dealing with Buerckel?
VON SCHIRACH: I know only that Dr. Seyss-Inquart, generally speaking, was considered a man with Church ties. That this brought him into conflict with Buerckel is quite obvious to me. I cannot go into details.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, we understood you this morning to make a statement in the nature of a confession with respect to, at least, the persecution of the Jews; and while that part of it that you gave was perhaps bravely enough said, I think there is much of it that you neglected to say, perhaps through oversight. Now, I wish you would tell the Tribunal whether or not it is a fact that your responsibility for young people in Germany under the National Socialists was fundamentally concerned with making really good National Socialists out of them, in the sense of making them fanatical political followers.
VON SCHIRACH: I considered it my task as educator to bring up the young people to be good citizens of the National Socialist State.
MR. DODD: And ardent followers and believers in Hitler and his political policies?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe I already said this morning that I educated our youth to follow Hitler. I do not deny that.
MR. DODD: All right. And while you said to us that you did not have the first responsibility for the educational system, I am sure you would not deny that for all of the other activities with which young people may be concerned you did have first responsibility?
VON SCHIRACH: Out-of-school education was my responsibility.
MR. DODD: And, of course, in the schools the only people who taught these young people were those who were politically reliable in keeping with Hitler's opinions and beliefs and the teachings of National Socialism?
VON SCHIRACH: The teaching staffs of German schools were definitely not homogeneous bodies. A large part of the teaching body belonged to a generation which had not been educated on National Socialist lines and did not adhere to National Socialism. The young teachers had been educated on National Socialist principles.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, you are not saying, certainly, that young people under the public educational system of Germany were not, at all times, under the guidance of those who were politically reliable, certainly after the first year or two of the administration of Hitler and his followers, are you?
VON SCHIRACH: Would you please repeat the question? I did not quite understand.
MR. DODD: What I am trying to say to you is that there is not any doubt in your mind or in ours that the public school system of Germany was supervised, for the most part at least, by people who were politically sound insofar as National Socialism is concerned.
VON SCHIRACH: I should not care to say that. Educational administration in Germany was supervised by Reich Minister Rust, who-and this is a fact-for reasons of ill health took very little interest in his official duties. Many thousands of older men were employed in connection with educational administration. They had received their appointments long before the days of the National Socialist. State and had retained them throughout.
MR. DODD: I do not care whether they were old or young or how long they had been in office. They all took an oath to Hitler, did they not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct; inasmuch as they were civil servants, they all took their oath as such.
MR. DODD: Rosenberg had a very considerable influence on young people in Germany, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that. I think you are estimating my Codefendant Rosenberg's influence on youth quite wrongly-meaning that you are overestimating it. Rosenberg certainly had some influence on many people who were interested in philosophical problems and were in a position to understand his works. But I must dispute the extent of the influence which you are ascribing to him.
MR. DODD: You publicly said on one occasion that the way of Rosenberg was the way of the Hitler Youth, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: That was, I believe, in 1934...
MR. DODD: Never mind when it was. Did you say it or not?
VON SCHIRACH: I did say it.
MR. DODD: When was it?
VON SCHIRACH: That was in Berlin, at a youth function there. But later I myself led youth along an entirely different path.
MR. DODD: Well, we Will get around to that a little later. But in any event, on this occasion in Berlin, when you had a large group of your youth leaders present, you were doing your best, at least, to have them understand that the way of Rosenberg was the way that they should follow?
VON SCHIRACH: But those were the same youth leaders who later received different instructions from me.
MR. DODD: Well, I dare say that may be so. We will get around to those different instructions; but on this occasion and at that time, insofar as you were concerned, you wanted them to understand that they were to follow Rosenberg's way, didn't you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but this way only affected one quite definite point, which was under discussion at that time, namely, the question of denominational youth organizations. Rosenberg and I agreed on this point, whereas we differed on many others; and it was to this point that the statement referred.
MR. DODD: Rosenberg's way certainly wasn't the way of young people remaining faithful to their religious obligations or teachings, was it?
VON SCHIRACH: I would not like to say that.
MR. DODD: What do you mean? You don't know?
VON SCHIRACH: I can say in so many words that I have never heard Rosenberg make any statement to the effect that young people should be disloyal to their religious convictions.
MR. DODD: Well, I don't know that he ever said it that way either; but I think you do know perfectly well, as many other people who were outside of Germany through all of these years, that Rosenberg was a violent opponent of organized religious institutions. You don't deny that, do you?
VON SCHIRACH: I certainly do not deny that in principle, but I do not think that it can be expressed in these terms. Rosenberg in no way tried to influence youth to withdraw from religious societies.
MR. DODD: And later on, actually-aren't you willing to now say that later on, and perhaps at that time, in a secret and indirect sort of way you played Rosenberg's game by arranging youth affairs at hours when Church ceremonies were going on?
VON SCHIRACH: I deny absolutely that I worked against the Church in such a way. In the years 1933-34, I was concerned mainly with the denominational youth organizations. I explained that here yesterday.
MR. DODD: I know. You garbled them up, and they all had to join your organization sooner or later. But I am not talking about that now. What I am trying to say is-and I think you must agree- that for a considerable period of time you made it really impossible for young people of certain religious belief to attend their Church services, because you scheduled your youth affairs at which attendance was compulsory.
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct.
MR. DODD: You say that is not so? Didn't the Catholic bishops publicly object to this very sort of thing, and don't you know it as well as I do?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot recall that.
MR. DODD: You do not recall any Catholic clerics objecting to the fact that you were scheduling your youth affairs on Sunday mornings when their clerics were holding services?
VON SCHIRACH: In the course of time, as I explained yesterday, many clergymen either approached me personally or complained in public that they were hampered in their spiritual ministration by the youth service and the forms which it took; and that is why I adjusted matters in the way shown by the document which my counsel submitted to the Court yesterday.
MR. DODD: Well, I don't think that is altogether an answer; and perhaps I can help your memory by recalling for you that your organization specifically provided that these young people, who were attending church on Sunday, could not go in uniform; and that was a very purposeful thing, wasn't it, because they could not get out of church and get to their youth attendance places at all if they had to go home and change their clothes.
VON SCHIRACH: But in many parishes the Church authorities forbade young people wearing uniform to enter the church.
MR. DODD: Well, I am not going to argue about it with you. Your answer is that you don't recall any frequent and strong criticism and objection from churchmen about this particular Sunday morning program. Is that the way you want to leave it?
VON SCHIRACH: I certainly do not mean that. There were periods of great tension, periods of heated argument, just as there was a stormy period in youth organization generally. Later, all these things were satisfactorily settled and put in order.
MR. DODD: Now, I understood you also to say that, whatever else you may have done with the young people of Germany during the years over which you had control of them, you certainly did not prepare them militarily in any sense, in any sense ordinarily accepted as being military; is that so?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: Well, now, let's see. What was the name of your personal press expert, or consultant, if you prefer that term?
VON SCHIRACH: The press expert who worked with me longest was a Herr Kaufmann.
MR. DODD: And you have asked him-as a matter of fact, you do have an interrogatory from him, don't you, which will be submitted. I assume you know about that, don't you?
VON SCHIRACH: I know that my counsel has applied for it, but I do not know the answers which Kaufmann gave.
MR. DODD: Well, you know the questions he asked, don't you?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember them.
MR. DODD: Well, perhaps if I remind you of one or two you will remember. You asked him if he ever put out any press releases without your authority. You asked him if he wasn't your personal press consultant. And you asked him if it wasn't true that you personally gave him the directive for what you wanted published in the press, and particularly in the youth press. Do you remember those questions? [There was no response.]
MR. DODD: But you don't know the answers; is that it? [There was no response.]
MR. DODD: Well, do you know that he published in the SS official publication in September of 1942 an article about the young people and the youth of Germany?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember that article. a MR. DODD: Well, I think that you had better have a look at it. It is Document 3930-PS. That becomes USA-853, Mr. President. Now, this document which I am showing you is a telegram, of course, a teletype message, "Reich Governor in Vienna." You will see at the top that it was received by you on 10 September 1942, and it sets out a copy of the subject for the body of this article for the editorial staff of the Schwarzes Korps . That is the SS magazine, as you recall. Now, you will see from reading it, and in the very first part it states that a high-ranking officer who had come back to Berlin from Sevastopol said that the youngsters who had been seen some 4 years ago in short pants marching through German cities singing "Yes, the flag is more than death," were the l9-year-olds who took that city of Sevastopol. The article goes on to say that the lads are fulfilling in fighting what they promised in singing and that the National Socialist movement had brought up a young generation, filling them with faith and self-denial, and so on. And then the rest of it goes on in substance to say that there were people who objected to your program at the time that you were trying to make these youngsters strong. The clear meaning of it is that you are now claiming credit for having had something to do with making them the good 19-year-old fighters who took Sevastopol, isn't that so? You are claiming credit, I say, in this article for having produced this kind of 19-year-old boy.
VON SCHIRACH: I had no knowledge of this article up to now.
MR. DODD: Well, you do now. You can talk about it, certainly.
VON SCHIRACH: That is just what I want to do. Herr Kaufmann at that time had just returned from the Eastern Front, and under the impression of what he had experienced out there he wrote down what appears in this article, which I cannot possibly read now in its entirety.
MR. DODD: Well, it isn't very long. Really I read what I think are the most important parts of it insofar as you are concerned.
VON SCHIRACH: That the youth was trained in a military way I believe is not mentioned in one single sentence in that entire article.
MR. DODD: Oh, I know. I am simply asking if it isn't a fact that you were claiming credit in this article for having had something considerable to do with the fact that these 19-year-old boys were such good fighters in Russia. That is all I am asking you.
VON SCHIRACH: I have already told you that I wanted to train the youth to become good citizens, and that I wanted to train them to be good patriots, who did their duty in the field later on.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: And should also do their duty in the field.
MR. DODD: Well, your answer then is, yes, you were claiming credit for the fact that they were such good fighters. Now, there is no trick in this question. It is merely preliminary, and I want to get on, but I think you might say "yes." And incidentally, this song, "The flag is more than death," was a song that you wrote, wasn't it?
VON SCHIRACH: The "Flag Song" which I based on the refrain "The flag is more than death." That is true.
MR. DODD: Now, you have also published a number of other songs for young people, in the formative days before the war started, in a songbook.
VON SCHIRACH: A great many songbooks for young people were published. I do not know them all.
MR. DODD: No, I don't either, but I am asking you if it isn't a fact that you did publish songbooks for young people.
VON SCHIRACH: Both the Cultural Service of the Reich Youth Leadership and the Press Service published such books. Of course, I did not look at each single song in them myself; but on the whole I believe that only songs which were sung by young people appeared in these books.
MR. DODD: All right. We have some extracts from one of your songbooks, and there is only one that I wish to refer to. Do you remember the one "Forward, Forward," that you wrote, by the way; another one that you wrote. Do you remember that song?
VON SCHIRACH: "Forward, Forward" is the Flag Song of the youth organization.
MR. DODD: All right. Did you write it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Well, now, certainly that also contains, does it not, highly inciting words and phrases for young people with respect to their military duty?
VON SCHIRACH: The Flag Song of the youth organization? I cannot see that?
MR. DODD: Well, words, like these: "We are the future soldiers. Everything which opposes us will fall before our fists. Fuehrer, we. belong to you," and so on. Do you remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not say: "We are the future soldiers," as I hear now in English, but "We are the soldiers of the future."
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: The soldiers of the future, the bearers of a future.
MR. DODD: All right, but that is another one of your songs, isn't it?
VON SCHIRACH: That is a revolutionary song dating from the fighting period; it does not refer to a war between, say, Germany and other powers, but to the fight which we had to carry on inside the country in order to achieve our revolution.
MR. DODD: All right, we will see. Do you remember the one, "Can you see the dawn in the East?" Do you remember that song?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not one of my songs.
MR. DODD: It is one of the songs in the Hitler Youth Songbook, is it not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is an old SA song dating from 1923-24.
MR. DODD: Well, that may be. I am only asking you, isn't it a fact that it was in your official songbooks for your young people?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: It is in that song that you vilify the Jews, is it not?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember that. I would have to see the song.
MR. DODD: Well, I can show it to you, but perhaps if you recall it we can save a little time. Don't you remember that the second stanza says, "For many years the people were enslaved and miss guided, traitors and Jews had the upper hand?" Do you remember those words in that song? "People to Arms" is the next one.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but I am not sure if that was published in a youth songbook.
MR. DODD: I can assure you that it was; and if you would like to see it, we have it here.
VON SCHIRACH: It is a very well-known SA song, which was sung by the young people and was therefore included in the youth songbook.