dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON SCHIRACH: I have just been listening to the English translation. I should like to see the German original, please.
MR. DODD: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you read, I thought, a British "coastal" town' did you not?
MR. DODD: No, "cultural" I meant to say, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is what I have got.
MR. DODD: Yes, it is "cultural." Incidentally, I call your attention, Mr. Witness, to the word "cultural." You have expressed such a great interest in culture.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be all right to break off now, or do you want to go on?
MR. DODD: I had hoped I could finish. I won't be many minutes, but I do have one or two rather important documents that I would like to put to the witness. Mr. President, if we recess, may I ask that the witness not be talked to by his counsel overnight? I think it is only fair, when a witness is under cross-examination, that he not have conversations with his counsel.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say to this document...
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to have this question clarified as to whether as defense counsel I am entitled to talk with my client or not. Mr. Dodd forbade me to talk to my client some time ago; and, of course, I acquiesced. But, if I am told that I must not speak to my client until the end of the cross-examination and the cross-examination is to be continued on Monday, that means that I cannot speak with my client tomorrow or the day after. But, in order to carry on his defense, I must have an opportunity of discussing with my client all the points raised here today.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will withdraw my request. I really forgot we were going over until Monday. I do think it is the ordinary rule, but I do think it might present some difficulty for the counsel here. I want to be fair with the Tribunal. During the recess Dr. Sauter approached the witness stand and I did tell him then that I did not think he should talk to him during the recess while he was under cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is the British rule, but I think in the circumstances we had better let Dr. Sauter...
MR. DODD: I quite agree. I was thinking we would go on tomorrow, but I do not want to interfere with his consultation over the weekend. [The Tribunal adjourned until 27 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to make certain that I did offer the following documents in evidence: 3914-PS, which becomes USA-863; 3943-PS, USA-864; and 3877-PS, USA-865.
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, at the close of the session on Friday we had just handed to you a copy of the teletype message to Martin Bormann. I had read it to you over this transmission system. I wish to ask you now if you sent that message to Bormann.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I dispatched that teletype message, and I should like to give an explanation in this connection. First...
MR. DODD: May I interrupt you just for a minute and ask that for the little while that we will be talking today, that you wait just a minute after your answer. I think it would help a little bit with the interpreting. I do not think we will have any trouble this morning. I will try to do the same thing, and perhaps we will work a little better together.
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, then, I want to explain why I addressed Bormann with `'Du," in the friendly form. Bormann and I come from the same town; I knew him from Weimar, but only slightly. And when in 1928 or '29 he came to Munich, he paid me a visit, and because he was the elder of us he suggested to me that we should call one another "Du." We maintained that form until 1943, when on his own initiative he dropped it and addressed me in his letters only with "Sie." Now, the text of this teletype message: We were in the third year of the war; the Czech population both in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and in Henna had remained perfectly quiet; in the Protectorate conditions were almost like those in peacetime. I had a very large Czech population in Vienna, and as a result of the attempt on Heydrich's life I feared that in the Protectorate there might be unrest which would no doubt have serious repercussions in Vienna. This was the time when German troops were advancing on the peninsula of Kerch; it was a time when we could not afford to have anything happen behind our front. And simultaneously with the news of the murder of the Protector I received official notification that the attempt, as is mentioned in this document, had been carried out by British agents and with British weapons. During the same month we heard, and it was also mentioned in the Wehrmacht communiqués, that British bombers had bombed residential areas in Hamburg and Paris and had attacked German cultural sites at Kiel. And so I suggested a reprisal measure to establish before the world British guilt in this attempt and to prevent serious unrest in Czechoslovakia. That is all I have to say. This teletype message is genuine. May I at this point also comment on a difficulty of translation which occurred during the last cross-examination on Friday?
VON SCHIRACH: The German word "Rester" was at that time translated into the English "savior." It is an expression which I used in my book when I described the Fuehrer as a "Rester," and the difficulty lies in the translation of that word into English: it can only be translated into English as 'savior.'' But retranslated into German, "savior" means "Hedland." In order to make quite clear what the German "Rester" is meant to express in English, I should have to use an explanatory phrase. If I say that the exact translation is "rescuer," then the real meaning of the word "Rester" is clearly set forth; and there is nothing blasphemous in the comparison or the description of the head of the State as a "rescuer." But if I had written in German that the head of the State was a "Hedland," then, of course, that would be blasphemy.
THE PRESIDENT: This sort of explanation should be kept for re-examination. It is not a matter which ought to interrupt the cross-examination.
MR. DODD: Now, I have only one or two questions to ask you in addition about this message. Were you thinking of some particular cultural city in Britain, like Cambridge, Oxford, Stratford, Canterbury?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I had no definite plan in mind. I thought that one ought to choose an objective corresponding to the sites hit by British bombers in Germany.
MR. DODD: As long as it was a cultural city. Were you thinking of what happened in Germany or of what happened to Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I was thinking of the cultural buildings in Germany which had been attacked, and I wanted to suggest this as an opportunity to make clear unmistakably that the murder of Heydrich had not been committed by the Czech population but by the Czech emigrants in London with British support. This retaliation in the third year of the war was to be a reply both to the attempt against Heydrich and to the attacks on German cultural monuments.
MR. DODD: You did not make any reference in this telegram to any so-called or alleged bombings of cultural objects in Germany, did you?
VON SCHIRACH: The Wehrmacht communiqués had already announced them, and they were generally known.
MR. DODD: That is not what I asked you. I asked if it is not a fact that in this teletype you made no reference at all to the alleged bombing of cultural objects in Germany, nor did you relate your suggestion for the bombing of a cultural town in England to any alleged cultural bombing in Germany, but rather, you made it perfectly clear that you wanted to strike at a cultural town in England because of what had happened to Heydrich. That is so, is it not?
VON SCHIRACH: It was not at all necessary for me to point to the bombing of German cultural sites. It was a fact known to the entire German population from the daily attacks of British bombers.
MR. DODD: I suppose by this time you knew very well the general reputation of Heydrich, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct. I considered Heydrich in this particular case as the representative of the Reich in Bohemia and Moravia and not as the Chief of the Gestapo.
MR. DODD: Did you know his general reputation in Germany at least at that time?
VON SCHIRACH: I knew that he was the Chief of the Gestapo. I did not know that he had committed the atrocities which have meanwhile become known.
MR. DODD: You had no knowledge that he was considered "the terror of the Gestapo"?
VON SCHIRACH: That is an expression which enemy propaganda used against him.
MR. DODD: You mean you still think it is propaganda?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, was it through enemy propaganda that you heard that he was called a terror before he was killed in 1942?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not want to say that . . .
MR. DODD: How did you know it?
VON SCHIRACH: I merely want to state here that for me the Reich Protector Heydrich was during this third year of the war a person other than the Chief of the Gestapo. This was a political matter.
MR. DODD: You did not content yourself with this suggestion to bomb England, did you? Do you recall what else you suggested not long afterwards?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not know.
MR. DODD: Do you recall anything that you either suggested or did by way of further so-called retaliation for the assassination of Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: No. I have no recollection.
MR. DODD: You suggested evacuating all the Czechs out of Vienna, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: This is a suggestion which did not originate with me personally, but which goes back to a remark about Henna which the Fuehrer himself had made in 1940 while I was reporting to him at his headquarters. I think I already mentioned during my own testimony that he said, "Vienna must become a German city and the Jews and Czechs must gradually be evacuated from Vienna." I already said that during my own testimony here.
MR. DODD: My question is: Is it not a fact that a few days after the assassination of Heydrich you suggested the evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna as a retaliatory measure for the assassination of Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it, but it is possible that in the excitement of this event, which disquieted me greatly, I said something like that.
MR. DODD: I suggest that you take a look at Document 3886-PS, which becomes USA-866, Mr. President. Now, this document consists of excerpts from the record of a meeting of the Henna City Council on 6 June 1942, as you will see on Page 9 of the original. You were present, and according to these notes, you spoke as Reichsleiter Baldur van Schirach and, moving down towards the bottom of that page, you will find this statement: "Finally, he"-meaning you-"disclosed that already in the latter part of summer or in the fall of this year all Jews would be removed from the city, and that the removal of the Czechs would then get under way, since this is the necessary and right answer to the crime committed against the Deputy Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia." Do you remember saying that?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no exact recollection, but I consider that these records here are genuine, and they probably represent the sense of what I said at the time. I was very much perturbed by Heydrich's death. I was afraid of serious trouble in Bohemia and Moravia, and I expressed my fears. The essential thing is that after calm consideration of this plan I dropped it, and did nothing more about it.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, I think it is perfectly clear- and I ask you if you do not agree-that you made two suggestions at least: one for the bombing of a cultural English town and the other for the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna, because of the assassination of this man Heydrich.
VON SCHIRACH: It is true that I put the idea of such an evacuation of the Czechs into words. It is equally true, and a historical fact, that I dropped the idea and that it was never carried out. It is correct that I suggested the bombing of a British cultural site as an answer to the attempt against Heydrich and to the innumerable bombardments of German cultural places in the third year of the war, at a time when vital interests of the German people were at stake.
MR. DODD: Incidentally, Hitler also suggested the wholesale evacuation of the Czechs from Czechoslovakia as a punishment for the murder of Heydrich, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know.
MR. DODD: Now I want to turn to something else and see if we can get through here rather soon this morning. You recall that on Friday we talked a little bit about your relationship with the SS and with Himmler, and I want to ask you this morning if it is not a fact, Mr. Witness, that you worked very closely with Himmler and his SS from almost the earliest days right down to almost the last days of your regime in Vienna. I wish you would answer that question.
VON SCHIRACH: I should very much like to answer that question in great detail.
MR. DODD: It does not require great detail in the first answer, but later, if you feel that you have some necessary explanation, I am sure you will be permitted to do so. Will you tell the Tribunal first of all, rather, if it is not a fact that you did closely co-operate with Himmler and his SS from the earliest days of your public office to the very late days of your public office?
VON SCHIRACH: Close collaboration in the sense that Himmler had considerable influence upon education did not exist.
MR. DODD: Let us stop right there and inquire a lithe bit. Is it not a fact that Himmler assigned his SS personnel to your youth organization for the training purpose of your young people? You can answer that very simply. Did he or did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: For training purposes?
MR. DODD: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I am not aware of anything like that. The fact that there might have been liaison officers would not be unusual, because practically all ministries and organizations had liaison officers. What you have just suggested, however, I do not recall.
MR. DODD: I think we had better clear this up first, and I ask you that you look at Document 3931-PS, which is a new document which becomes USA-867, Mr. President. Now, Mr. Witness, if you will look at this document, you will observe that it is a message which you sent to "Dear Party Member Bormann" in August of 1941. It is quite long, and there will not be any necessity, I am sure, for reading all of it, but I want to direct your attention to some parts of it that might help your memory with respect to the SS. By way of preliminary question, the SA apparently had suggested that it take over some of the training of young people, had it not, some time in the summer of 1941?
VON SCHIRACH: I said in my testimony-I think on Thursday-that already in the spring of 1939, I believe, the SA had attempted to take over the promilitary training of the youth of the two older age classes, and such attempts were probably repeated in 1941.
MR. DODD: Yes, I knew you were complaining to Bormann about it when you wrote this message. You recall now, do you not, from just looking at the letter, that that is the whole substance of the letter-a complaint about the attempt of the SA to directly control the training of some young people in the Hitler Youth organization.
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot speak about this long teletype letter without having read through it.
MR. DODD: Well, let us see. If you will turn to the second page of the English text-you do not have any pages there; I think it is all one. It is all a teletype, but it will be not too far down on the first part of it. First of all, I want to have you see if you can find the statement that "the Hitler Youth has considered it necessary from the very beginning to make the Party itself the agency for the direction and administration of its military training." Do you find that passage?
VON SCHIRACH: No
MR. DODD: Well, you will find the paragraph numbered (1) on your teletype, small Arabic number one. You will find they start to be numbered (1), (2), (3), and so on. Do you find that, Mr. Witness?
VON SCHIRACH: I have Roman numeral I.
MR. DODD: All right. That is what I want to call your attention to. If we hit some place that we agree on, then we can move on. You found that Number (1) that says that "for more than one year an agreement in draft form has been submitted to the SA which requests that the SA cadre be furnished for the military training of the youth," and that the SA leadership did not comply with this request. Now, will you move down further, let me see, in Number (3), and then following (3), probably down another whole length three or four paragraphs, you will find-it is in capital letters, by the way-what I want to call your attention to; I assume it is in capital letters in the German: "I would be happy if the SA would put personnel at my disposal for support for this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time already." In the English, Mr. President, that is at the bottom of Page 4 and the top of Page 5. [Turning to the defendant.] Did you find that sentence?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: You say there that you would be happy if the SA would put personnel at your disposal for support of this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time already, and you are referring-if you will read back to the paragraph just ahead of that sentence-to the training of the young people. You talk about Hitler Schools and the training of Hitler Youth. Now, it is perfectly clear, is it not, that you did have assistance from the SS, according to your own words, from the SS and Police, for a long time before you sent this message?
VON SCHIRACH: During the war, yes; since the beginning of the war in 1939 we had promilitary training camps and I wanted youth instructors for these camps. Neither the Army nor the SA could supply sufficient instructors; the SS and the Police could place a few young officers at my disposal.
MR. DODD: So it was only from the beginning of the war that you had personnel from the SS and Police for the training of young people, was it?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not think that there would have been need for SS instructors otherwise. As I have said, we selected youth leaders from among youth itself.
MR. DODD: I ask you again, do you want the Tribunal to understand that it was only from the beginning of the war that you had the assistance of SS and Police personnel assigned to your youth organization for the training of young people?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that question definitely for this reason: we had for example a training camp for skiing practice, and it was quite possible that one of the instructors was an SA man or an SS man only because by chance he happened to be one of the best sportsmen in that field. But I cannot think where such collaboration existed elsewhere.
MR. DODD: Are you able to say that you did not have SS personnel assigned for training purposes; and I am not talking about some isolated skimaster, I am talking about a regular program of assistance from the SS to you in your training of young people.
VON SCHIRACH: As far as promilitary training is concerned, it was only through this teletype message that I requested help for training purposes. Apart from that, I do not recollect any collaboration.
MR. DODD: Do you know the term "Heuaktion"?
VON SCHIRACH: Heuaktion? I do not remember it. I do not know what is meant by that.
MR. DODD: Well, you have been in the courtroom every day. Do you not remember that there was proof offered here by the Prosecution concerning the Defendant Rosenberg and an action termed Heuaktion?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember it at the moment; I do not know it.
MR. DODD: Do you not remember that there was some talk here in the courtroom about the seizing of young people in the East and forcing them to be brought to Germany, 40,000 or 50,000 youths at the ages of 10 to 14? You remember that, don't you, and that one of the purposes was to destroy the biological potentiality of these people? You do not know what I refer to?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is an action which I now remember in connection with this Trial. The only thing I can say on this in an official capacity is what Axmann told me during the war-I cannot recall the exact year-namely, that he had placed a large number of young Russians in apprentice hostels and apprentice workshops at the Junkers works in Dessau, and that these youths were extremely well accommodated and looked after there. I had not been in any way concerned with this action before, but as I stated at the beginning of my testimony here, I assume responsibility for the actions of youth in this war; I adhere to that statement. I do not think however, that youth is responsible in this case, and I recall the Defendant Rosenberg's statements that he was complying with the wishes of the Army and an army group in this affair.
MR. DODD: Well, we have the document here. It is already in evidence as USA-171-the Tribunal is familiar with it-and I would like to call your attention to the fact that in this document, which says that Rosenberg agreed to the program of seizing or apprehending 40,000 to 50,000 youths at the ages of 10 to 14 and the transportation of them to the Reich, it also said that this program can be accomplished with the help of the officers of the Hitler Youth through the Youth Bureau of Rosenberg's Ministry; and it also said that a number of these young people were to be detailed to the SS and SS auxiliaries. Now, what I want to ask you particularly is what you know about that program and how the Hitler Youth co-operated in it?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot add to what I have already said about this program.
MR. DODD: You were in charge of the war commitment of the Hitler Youth, were you not, the "Kriegseinsatz"?
VON SCHIRACH: The war commitment of German youth was under immediate direction of the Reich Youth Leader. From my own knowledge I can give only general but no detailed information.
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, I ask you again, were you not appointed and did you not serve as the person responsible for the war commitment of youth in Germany? Now, I have got the document to show your appointment if you want to see it.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes; I do not want to deny it at all. In 1939 and 1940, as long as I was Reich Youth Leader, I myself directed that war commitment.
MR. DODD: I am talking about an appointment that was made even later than 1939 or 1940. You were appointed the person in charge of the war commitment of German youth by the Fuehrer at his headquarters in March of 1942, were you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Will you be good enough to show me the document. I consider it possible, but I have no exact recollection.
MR. DODD: All right. It is 3933-PS, which becomes USA-868. But first of all: You do not know you were appointed in charge of the war commitment for youth without being shown the document?
VON SCHIRACH: No; only I cannot tell you the exact date from memory. I was under the impression that I had been responsible for the war commitment beginning in 1939.