dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, I thought you told us the SS had no connection with the SD. You are now telling us that this man was head of the SS department, SD, are you not?
HOEPPNER: There must have been a false translation. Mr. Pres-ident, may I repeat my answer?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, repeat your answer.
HOEPPNER: Jost was the head of Central Department III, Foreign Intelligence Service, in the former SD main office. He was later the first chief of Amt VI, the Foreign Intelligence Service, the predecessor of Gruppenfuehrer Schellenberg, who has been heard already by this Tribunal.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Are you acquainted with the name of Ehrlinger?
HOEPPNER: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Who was Ehrlinger?
HOEPPNER: I know Ehrlinger only from a later period. He was the last chief of Amt I of the Reich Security Main Office.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: He was also a member of the SD, was he not?
HOEPPNER: He also belonged to the SS special formation SD.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Do you know the name of Rauff? Do you recognize that?
THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through then to us that he was a member of the SS-SD.
HOEPPNER: He belonged to the SS special SD formation about which we spoke in detail yesterday; that is to say, the merger of SS members who were in the Security Service, in the Gestapo, and in the Criminal Police; that is to say, not all members of these, but only those who belonged to the SS, and also those who were honorary co-workers belonging to the SS, and also some other officers who worked with the Security Police-for instance, the border Police and customs investigations officials, and later a large number of Landrdte, too.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: May I continue, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Thank you. [Turning to the witness.] Do you know the name of Rauff?
HOEPPNER: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: What was he at that time?
HOEPPNER: Rauff at that time was in charge of the motor cars belonging to the Security Service, as far as I remember today. I should like to say that at that time I had no direct connection with the control office in Berlin, as the main office of the SD was so organized at that time, that between the lower divisions and the main office there was an organizational set-up, Oberabschnitt, which was abolished in September 1939.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, the American Prosecution kindly gave me the documents already submitted to the Tribunal which show that subsequently orders concerning death vans were addressed specifically to Herr Rauff. These are the docu-ments which I am now passing on to the Tribunal. These documents have been submitted already. I am merely ren-dnding you of them. And now, Witness, I should also like you to look at the circles showing Einsatzkommandos in the chart. Do you recognize the names mentioned there?
HOEPPNER: I do not know yet which names you mean.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am talking about the circles at the bottom, Einsatzkommando 2, 3, 8, 9, and others. Have you found the place?
HOEPPNER: Is that another document?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: No; that is precisely the same document.
HOEPPNER: On the manuscript document which I have, I can see no such circles. It must be another document attached to another letter.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please look at the circles around "Einsatzkommando." Do you. recognize any of the names within those circles?
HOEPPNER: No. On the document which is appended to the letter signed by Obersturmfuehrer Scheidler?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Do you recognize the names there? Particularly, did you know Gottschalk?
HOEPPNER: No.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Dr. Lehmann?
HOEPPNER: No.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Schulze?
HOEPPNER: I gather that there must be a confusion of names there, and it I should be "Schulz."
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, "Schulz."
HOEPPNER: Yes, I know. Here we have "Schulze."
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is a mistake. I have it as "Schulz."
HOEPPNER: I know Schulz.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Was he a member of the SD?
HOEPPNER: No. I think that he was at that time a State Police chief somewhere in northern Germany.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Do you know Biermann?
HOEPPNER: Not personally, but I have heard his name.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Who was he?
HOEPPNER: I beg your pardon. I think that he was then a chief of the State Police. Later he became an inspector of the Security Police and the SD.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Do you know Höhnscheid?
HOEPPNER: I do not know Dr. Heinrich.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: No-Höhnscheid?
HOEPPNER: EK 10, Einsatzkommando 10.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: No, Einsatzkommando 4, Höhn-scheid.
HOEPPNER: I do not know him.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Hoffmann?
HOEPPNER: No.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I do suppose that you know Stahlecker, though.
HOEPPNER: I knew him by name but not personally.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: You are acquainted with the post he held?
HOEPPNER: I think that he was then inspector of the Security Police or Staatspolizeileiter or Oberabschnittfuehrer, but I can not quite remember what he was.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: And do you know Guenther?
HOEPPMER: Guenther, if I remember right, was at that time inspector in Berlin.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Inspector of the SD, was he not?
HOEPPNER: There were no SD inspectors at that time; there were only inspectors of the Security Police.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I have no more questions about the chart, Mr. President. May I ask some question about the next document?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. These words "EK" in the circle at the bottom mean Einsatzkommando I suppose, do they? And will you tell the Tribunal what the purpose of the chart is? What is the organization which it is supposed to define?
HOEPPNER: I suppose that it is the preparation of some plan' of Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich to employ the offices of the Security Police and the SD, which were under his jurisdiction, in case of possible complications with Czechoslovakia. The abbreviation "EK" means Einsatzkommando. Actually, later, when the German troops marched into Czechoslovakia, there went along units of the Security Police and of the SD which, just like the Einsatzkommandos and the Einsatzgruppen in the East, were mobile units of a very special nature, which had been newly set up and had entirely new tasks, and which were dissolved later when the State Police office in Pragueand t he SD Department Prague were organized.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am not concerned with whether they were later dissolved. Heydrich, I suppose, was in command of the whole of the SD, was he not?
HOEPPNER: Yes, Heydrich was head of the SD main office and at the same time head of the Security Police, both offices personally united in him.
TXIE PRESIDENT: Was Stahlecker a member of the information branch of the SD that you are speaking of?
HOEPPNER: I cannot state that for certain. If I remember cor-rectly, Stahlecker had at that time some function in East Prussia.
THE PRESIDENT: You said just now, I thought, that Stahlecker was in Berlin.
HOEPPNER: In East Prussia at that time. In my opinion, Guenther was in Berlin. His name was also mentioned previously.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, was he a member of the SD In-formation Service?
HOEPPNER: Yes, I think that he was then head of the SD, Berlin Oberabschnitt. I cannot say it with certainty.
THE PRESIDENT: Ehrlinger, was Ehrlinger also a member of the SD Information Service?
HOEPPNER: I do not know in what office Ehrlinger was then employed. I heard his name only later when he became head of Amt I.
THE PRESIDENT: What about Rauff?
HOEPPNER: Rauff was then in charge of the motor transportation corps of the SD head office, but here, too, I cannot state for certain whether ...
THE PRESIDENT: What about the Information Service of the SD? Was he a member? Was Rauff a member of the SD Information Services?
HOEPPNER: He was head of a technical department in the SD main office. In the SD main office at that time, which handled foreign information and domestic information, there were several technical offices in the Central Department I which were at the disposal of the entire Amt.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what about his functions? One of his functions was to work in the Information Service of the SD-in the Domestic Information Service of the SD?
HOEPPNER: He was also in charge of the motor cars for the Domestic Information Service.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you can answer the question "yes" or "no." Was it part of his function to work in the Domestic Infor-mation Service of the SD?
HOEPPNER: Not in the Information Service as such, as far as I know. No, he only ...
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he had no competence, as you call it, in the Domestic Information Service of the SD?
HOEPPNER: As far as I can remember, he was only in charge of the motor transportation of the SD main office-also for the Domestic Information Service.
THE PRESIDENT: Doesn7t that chart show that the SD was working in transport co-ordination with the Gestapo?
HOEPPNER: In my opinion the chart shows only that the head of both organizations was prepared, in case of a march into Czecho-slovakia, to employ men of both organizations there.
THE PRESIDENT: And don't these documents show that your comment about the first document was inaccurate and that that docu-ment was being used by Schellenberg in September 1938, for the purpose of organizing the SD in Czechoslovakia?
HOEPPNER: I think it is impossible that this document should have been used, because otherwise the date would have been filled in; and the Roman figures at the end of the document would have been indicated. Whether another draft was made later and sub-mitted to Schellenberg, that I do not know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you see that the first document is headed Roman III, Arabic 225. The letter to Dr. Best is also headed Roman 111/225, and it refers to the suggestion which is no doubt contained in that document; and the chart itself is also headed 111/225.
HOEPPNER: Yes; I suppose that some other draft was made, for this is months later. This draft was almost certainly not used because then the Roman figures would most certainly have been indicated. In any case, the Roman figure III of that time had nothing to do with the later Amt III, because the department from which the accused Amt III originated, was Central Department 11/2.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: -Mr. President, in connection with the witness' replies on the fact that he does not know whether the confidential agents of the SD made up lists of persons who were to be annihilated or mobilized forcibly or else arrested and placed in concentration camps, I would like your permission to submit another short document pertaining to another country, to Poland, and which contains the instructions of the Blockstellenleiter of the SD in Poland to his confidential agents. I ask your permission to read this document into the record.
HOEPPNER: May I say one more word? There is nothing in my document about annihilation or concentration camps.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: You will now have the docu-ment before you. May I quote the document? It is USSR-522. I quote: "Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Blockstelle Mogilno, 24 August 1943."-Translating verbatim-"To confidential agents. Subject: The Preparation -of the Lists of Poles." The text follows: "I have repeatedly pointed out to you the necessity of paying special attention to the Poles. For that reason, I am giving below the speech of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler, delivered on 15 March 1940 at the meeting of the concentration camp commanders in former Poland, and according to the directives given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me the list of names of all the concerned Poles." Extract from speech: "'For that reason, all our collaborators, both men and women, should consider as their most important and urgent task the preventing of all unscrupulous leaders of the Polish people from exercising their activity. You, as camp commanders, will know best how to fulfill this task. "'All skilled workers of Polish origin are to be utilized in our war industry; then all Poles will disappear from the face of the earth. "'In fulfilling this very responsible task, you must, within the prescribed limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this directive to all the camp commanders. "'The hour is drawing closer when every German will have to stand the test. For that reason, the great German nation should understand that its most important task right now is to exterminate all the Poles "'I expect all my agents to report to me immediately all Polish grumblers and defeatists. For such a task we must also utilize children and aged persons, who can help us con-siderably, because of their so-called friendly attitude toward the Poles.' "Extract from Himmler's speech on 15 March 1940. Heil Hitler.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, (signature illegible)." I would like to ask you now, after seeing this document, whether you still deny that the workers of the SD in the occupied territories trained and oriented all, persons they could use to make up lists of such persons who were to be annihilated?
HOEPPNER: Yes, I deny that, especially as I cannot state whether this document is a genuine one or not.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: This document was captured by the Polish Army in Mogilno in the building of the SD.
HOEPPNER: I take, for example, the words "camp commander meeting" as being absolutely impossible. I don't see what it could refer to; and it seems to me impossible to ascertain what "Polish grumblers and defeatists" might mean. It seems to me absolutely self-evident that the Poles hoped that Germany would lose the war.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am not asking you to make propagandistic speeches on the subject of Poland, I am asking you something quite different. I am asking you this question: Are you still denying the fact that the SD compelled those collaborating with it to make lists of persons to be annihilated?
HOEPPNER: Yes, I deny that.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: What evidence is there that this document was found in the SD headquarters?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It was not found in the SD headquarters. That was not properly translated.
THE PRESIDENT: Your answer didn't come through.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: This was not found at the central headquarters Mr. President. It was not translated to you correctly if that is what was said. The document was found by the Polish Army...
THE PRESIDENT: What was translated to me was that it was captured by the Polish Army at the SD headquarters. Is that right?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, but not at the central headquarters of the SD for Poland, at the headquarters in the block station of Mogilno.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't say anything about the central head-quarters. All I want to know is what evidence there is that it was found at the headquarters of the SD.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. May I now read the document of the Polish delegation on the subject, which says: "It is hereby certified that the submitted document in the German language, dated 24 August 1943, consists of the in-structions of the Security Police of the ReichsFuehrer SS, in the City of Mogilno, containing an extract from Himmler's' speech and that it is the exact photostatic copy of the original submitted by the Chief Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes in Poland." The original was found in an envelope. In the left-hand corner at the top there was stated, "Landrat of the Area of Mogilno of the Governmental District Hohensalza." Besides, there is a receipt for a registered letter which says, "Registered Mogilno, Wartheland 272," with a postal stamp "24 August 1943," addressed to ...
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel, I am sorry, I didn't hear the begin-ning of what you said. What are you reading from now?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am reading, Mr. President, from the certificate which the Polish Delegation submitted on the subject of this document. This was a document which was submitted to us by the Polish Delegation.
THE PRESIDENT: How did you identify this particular docu-ment? You see, we have a document produced before us which appears to have nothing on it which connects it with that certificate. I mean, how do you connect it with this certificate?
MR. COUNSELLOR - SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I was just handed a note here from our documentary section which says that since the Tribunal has the original, the original does not have the certificate of the Polish Delegation attached to it, whereas, I have the certif-icate attached to my document. I am very sorry about the mistake. You will receive the certificate.
THE PRESIDENT: I see-and the certificate you have identifies the translation in Russian? Is that right?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, yesterday I myself verified the translation which I have with the original, and I have found it to be accurate and correct, -and the certificate also, states that the Russian translation is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must offer in evidence that certificate in order to make it clear that this is the document which was found at this SD headquarters at Mogilno. That should be attached to this exhibit. Has this got a number, this exhibit? 522,, is that it?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, the number is USSR-522, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will have to have the certificate attached to it; then we shall be able to look at it.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. I have no more questions to ask this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken.]
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, in connection with one of the points to which my esteemed American colleague has drawn my attention, I request your permission to put another question here to the witness concerning the first document which I submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Which was the first?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: This is USSR-509, the chart.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Thank you. Witness, will you kindly tell us-do you deny that Gengenbach, who is to be found in this chart as belonging to the Einsatzstab-you will be shown the chart in a minute-was a member of the SD? [The document was submitted to the witness.]
HOEPPNER: He was on the staff of the SD.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: He was a member of the SD.
HOEPPNER: Yes, he was. He was Gruppenleiter of III A. He was my immediate predecessor.
MR. COUNSELLOR- SMIRNOV: Tell us then, was it not you who became his deputy later on?
HOEPPNER: I was the successor of Gengenbach, but not his deputy. When I came to Berlin with the Reich Security Main Office he was already dead. Besides Gengenbach was not yet in Berlin then, for as far as I can recall today, he was at Munich. I met him only during the war.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: But, at any rate, you did after-ward hold the post which had been held before by Gengenbach?
HOEPPNER: The position which Gengenbach held later in Berlin I took over from him. He was Gruppenleiter III A just as I was.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Thank you very much. The American Prosecution, Mr. President, has a copy of the documents which have already been submitted under Exhibits Number USA-175 and USA-174, and it is stated here in the places underlined that the head of the Department III A was Gengenbach-that is the same man who is to be found in the chart. I have no further questions to put to the witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the speech of Himmler, dated 15 March 1940, already been put in evidence?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: As far as I know, Mr. President, no. At any rate, I do not know this speech.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. Now, Dr. Gawlik.
DR. GAVILIK: Witness, do you still have Document USSR-509?
HOEPPNER: I have no documents at all. [The document was submitted to the witness.]
DR. GAWLIK: Witness, please look at Page 1. What was the task of these Einsatzgruppen which were to be employed in Czecho-slovakia?
HOEPPNER: I do not know; I had nothing to do with the prep-aration of these tasks.
DR. GAWLIK: I said please look at Page 1.
HOEPPNER: "To secure political life and to secure national economy," it says on Page 1.
DR. GAWLIK: Was this a completely different task from that which later in 1941 was given to Einsatzgruppen A, B, C, and D in the East?
HOEPPNER: I do not know the tasks in the East very well either, because I had nothing to do with them; but as far as I am informed, the Einsatzgruppen in the East certainly had nothing to do with safeguarding the national economy. The Einsatzgruppen 'in the East had to secure the rear army area.
DR. GAWLIK: Please look at the chart, the organization of these Einsatzgruppen.
HOEPPNER: The handwritten one or the printed one?
DR. GAWLIK: The second one. With the aid of this chart, can you answer the question whether these Einsatzgruppen belonged to the organization of the SD?
HOEPPNER: You mean the chart that says "Staff SS Gruppen-Fuehrer Heydrich" at the top?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, that is the chart I mean.
HOEPPNER: No, that was not an organization of the Security Service but was something completely new.
DR. GAWLIK: Regarding the tasks these Einsatzgruppen or these Einsatz staffs had, were they a part of the duties of the Security Service?
HOEPPNER: I do not know the tasks which were assigned to these Einsatz staffs. In any event, the task mentioned on Page 1, "securing the national economy," is not a- task of the Security Service; it is not a task related to the Information Service nor does the "safeguarding of political life" have anything to do with the Information Service.
DR. GAWLIK: Were parts of the organization of the SD used by these Einsatz staffs? Can you answer the question with the aid of this chart?
HOEPPNER: As far as the chart shows, parts of the organi-zation were not used but only individual members of the Security Service, just as in the case of the State Police too. The same will probably have applied as later in connection with the Einsatz-gruppen in the East, that is, it can be compared with being drafted into the Armed, Forces.
DR. GAWLIK: Were the individual members of the Security Service, by being assigned to the Einsatz staffs, no longer active in the Security Service? HOEPPN
ER. HOEPPNER: No, of course not. For they received completely different tasks. Again, I can only make this comparison: If a judge is drafted into the army, then he no longer carries on his activity as a judge. DR. GAVY'LIK: Were the activities and tasks of the Einsatz staffs generally known to the members of the Security Service, partic-ularly the members of the subordinate agencies of the branch offices of the regional offices? Not in the least.
DR. GAWLIK: Now, I come to the second document that deals with the letter of the Blockstelle Mogilno. (USSR-522) [The document was submitted to the witness.]
DR. GAWLIK: What was a Blockstelle?
HOEPPNER: In the structure of the Security Service, the term "Blockstelle" did not exist but, nevertheless, it is possible that regional offices (Aussenstellen) organized subbranches and then used this term; in general, what was subordinate to a regional office was called an "observer" (Beobachter).
DR. GAWLIK: What was the staff of an Aussenstelle in general?
HOEPPNER: According to the period of time and according to the importance of the Aussenstelle, it differed considerably. On the average, say in 1943 or 1944, there were one or two regular officials in a branch and a large number of honorary workers, whereby the head of the branch was sometimes an honorary official and some-times a regular one.
DR. GAWLIK: Was the Blockstelle above an Aussenstelle or was it subordinate to it?