dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to suggest that, before the witness Puhl is recalled, the witness Thoms be called. I think it will save some of the Tribunal's time. I think, from what I know of the prospective testimony, there may be questions that will arise in the mind of the Tribunal which it would like to put to the witness Puhl after having heard the witness Thoms. And also I would ask, so as to 'tee absolutely fair to all concerned, that the witness Puhl be in the courtroom when the witness Thoms testifies. I think he should have that opportunity.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you any objections, Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: No, I have no objections.
MR. DODD: May we call the witness Thoms?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, call Thoms, and have Puhl somewhere in the courtroom where he can hear. The witness Thoms took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
ALBERT THOMS (Witness): Albert Thoms.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I am aware that he has been called for cross-examination. However, there are one or two matters, now material, which were not included in the affidavit, and to save time I would like to bring those out before the cross-examination takes place.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. DODD: Herr Thoms, you executed a statement on the 8th day of May 1946. Is that so?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: And you signed it?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: And everything in it was true?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: And is true now, of course?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: I wish you would just look at it for the purposes of certainty and identify it now. Is that the statement that you signed, Herr Thoms?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: All right. Now, I have one or two questions to ask you about it. I wish to offer it, Mr. President, as Exhibit USA-852. You know this gentleman sitting to your left, do you not?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: That is Mr. Puhl, is it not?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: He was the Vice President of the Reichsbank when you were employed there.
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now, did you ever have a conversation with Herr Puhl about any special deposit which was coming to the Reichsbank and about which you should maintain the utmost secrecy?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: Tell us when that conversation took place, what was said, and if anyone else was present at the time.
THOMS: This conversation took place in the summer of 1942. I was called to Vice President Puhl's office by Herr Frommknecht, a Treasury official. Herr Frommknecht took me to Herr Puhl, and there Herr Puhl disclosed the fact that a special transaction with the office of the Reichsfuehrer SS was to be undertaken. Do you want me to explain it in detail?
MR. DODD: Tell us everything that he said to you.
THOMS: Herr Puhl told me that the affair was to be kept absolutely secret and confidential. Not only would articles be delivered which would be automatically taken over in the ordinary course of business of the Reichsbank, but also the disposal of jewelry and other articles would have to be effected. Upon my objection that we had no expert men for such matters, he replied that we would have to find a Way to convert these articles. First I made the suggestion that these special articles should then be sent to the Reich Main Treasury-that is, the Main Treasury of the Reich Government-which also held all booty of the Army. However, Herr Puhl thought that this matter should not go through the Reich Main Treasury, but should be handled by the Reichsbank in some other way. Thereupon I suggested that these articles could be sent to the Municipal Pawnbroker's Office in Berlin, exactly as the deliveries from the confiscated Jewish property had been dealt with before. Herr Puhl agreed to this suggestion.
MR. DODD: Now, when did the first of these shipments arrive?
THOMS: The first delivery came to the Reichsbank during the month of August, as far as I can remember.
MR. DODD: 1942?
THOMS: 1942.
MR. DODD: Does the name Melmer mean anything to you?
THOMS: Melmer was the name of the SS man who subsequently brought these valuables to the Reichsbank. Under this code word all deliveries of the SS were later entered in the books of the bank.
MR. DODD: Did you ever mention the name or the word "Melmer" to Puhl, and did he ever mention it to you?
THOMS: The name '`Melmer" was not mentioned by Vice President Puhl to me, but was mentioned by me to Vice President Puhl as I had to inform him about the start of the entire transaction and particularly about the carrying out of the transaction regarding the conversion of the valuables. In accordance with the suggestion of the office of the Reichsfuehrer SS, the money equivalent was transferred to the Reich Ministry of Finance into an account which was given the name "Max Heiliger." I duly informed Vice President Puhl briefly about these facts.
MR. DODD: Did you ever tell Puhl the nature of the material that you were receiving in the SS shipments?
THOMS: After some months Vice President Puhl asked me how the "Melmer,' affair was getting along. I explained to him that, contrary to the expectation that there would really be very few deliveries, deliveries were increasing and that apart from gold and silver coins they contained particularly a great deal of jewelry, gold rings, wedding rings, gold and silver fragments, dental gold, and all sorts of gold and silver articles.
MR. DODD: What did he say when you told him there were jewels and silver and dental gold and other articles?
THOMS: May I first of all add a few things. I drew his attention especially to the fact that on one occasion something like 12 kilograms of pearls had been collected and that I had never before seen such an unusual amount in all my life.
MR. DODD: Wait a minute! What was it?
THOMS: They were pearls and pearl necklaces.
MR. DODD: Did you also tell him you were receiving a quantity of eye-glass rims?
THOMS: I cannot swear to that at the moment, but I described the general character of these deliveries to him. Therefore, I think, I probably used "spectacles," and similar words; but I would not like to state it on my oath.
MR. DODD: Was Puhl ever in the vaults when this material was being looked through?
THOMS: On several occasions he visited the strong-rooms of the bank to inspect the gold stored there and particularly to inform himself about the type of stores. The deliveries of the "Melmer" transactions were kept Inca special part of one of the main safes, so that on those occasions Herr Puhl must also have seen the boxes and sacks full of those deliveries. Nearby in the corridor of the vault the articles of the "Melmer" deliveries were being dealt with. I am firmly convinced that when he walked through the strongrooms, Herr Puhl must have seen these objects, as they were lying quite openly on the table and everyone who visited the strongroom could see them.
MR. DODD: There were about 25 or 30 people that sorted this stuff out, were there not, before it was shipped away for melting and for sale in the pawn shops?
THOMS: I would say that there were not 25 to 30 people who sorted these things-in the course of a day perhaps 25 to 30 people would visit the strong-rooms to carry out some official business there. For this particular business some four or five officials were occupied in sorting out the things, getting them ready.
MR. DODD: And everyone under your supervision was sworn to secrecy? They didn't talk about this business; they were forbidden to do so, were they not?
THOMS: There were strict instructions in the bank that secret matters must not be discussed, not even with a colleague of one's own department, if that colleague did not himself also work at the same job. So that...
MR. DODD: Well, this was a super-secret matter, wasn't it? It wasn't the ordinary secrecy that attended. Wasn't there a special secrecy surrounding these deliveries?
THOMS: Quite right. It was quite an exceptional affair and it had to be kept especially secret. I would say that it went beyond the limits of top secrecy. For even I had been strictly forbidden to talk to anybody about it; and I said at the time when I left Vice President Puhl, after the first conversation, that I would however inform the leading officials in the Treasury, because after all my superiors must be informed about this business.
MR. DODD: Was there a report made about these "Melmer" deposits to the Directorate?
THOMS: No. The matter was treated as a verbal agreement. It was after all an exceptional case and only one account was kept of the deliveries made, which was called the "Melmer account." This account was transmitted by the head cashier's office to the foreign exchange department which, in turn, had to take further steps with the Directorate of the Reichsbank.
MR. DODD: Well, the Directorate had to approve the handling of this type of thing, did it not? You weren't allowed to handle materials like this without the approval of the bank Directorate?
THOMS: In matters concerning gold particularly instructions had to be given and approved respectively by the Board of Directors. I could therefore never act independently. Generally the instructions were given to the Treasury in writing and they were signed by at least two officials and one member of the Board of Directors. So that it was quite unique that in this case instructions were given in a verbal form.
MR. DODD: By the way, Herr Thoms, you have seen the film this noontime? We have shown you a film, haven't we?
THOMS: Yes.
MR. DODD: After seeing that film, are you able to say whether or not that represents a fair representation of the appearance of some of the shipments that were received by the Reichsbank from the SA
THOMS: I may say that this film and the pictures which I have seen in it were typical of the "Melmer" deliveries. Perhaps I should qualify that by saying that the quantities shown in this film were in excess of the quantity of dental gold and particularly jewelry which came with the first deliveries. Only later did these amounts increase, so that the quantities which we have seen in this film had actually not yet been seen by the Reichsbank because they were contained in boxes or trunks which until then had remained locked. But generally the material which I have seen in that film is typical of the "Melmer" deliveries.
MR. DODD: All right, sir. Now, approximately-I don't expect a completely accurate answer, but approximately how many shipments did you receive of this stuff from the SS?
THOMS: As nearly as I can remember at the moment, there must have been more than 70 deliveries, possibly 76 or 77. I can't tell you exactly at the moment, but that must be about the right figure.
MR. DODD: Very well, I have no further questions.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what is your occupation?
THOMS: A councillor of the Reichsbank.
DR. SAUTER: Where do you live?
THOMS: Berlin-Steglitz. Then I-after my home was bombed I lived at Potsdam, Neu-Fahrland.
DR. SAUTER: Did you volunteer for the examination of the Prosecution or how did you happen to be interrogated...
THOMS: I was...
DR. SAUTER: Please, will you wait until I have finished my question so that the interpreters can keep up with us? Will you please make a pause between question and answer.
THOMS: I was ordered here.
DR. SAUTER: By whom?
THOMS: Probably by the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: Are you a free man?
THOMS: Yes, I am free.
DR. SAUTER: Did you receive the summons in writing?
THOMS: No. I was asked orally yesterday in Frankfurt to come to Nuremberg.
DR. SAUTER: Frankfurt? Are you living in Frankfurt at the moment?
THOMS: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Thoms, where were you living on 8 May? That is a week ago today?
THOMS: On 8 May of this year?
DR. SAUTER: You are Herr Thoms, aren't you?
THOMS: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, on 8 May, a week ago today.
THOMS: In Frankfurt.
DR. SAUTER: You were interrogated there, weren't you?
THOMS: That is quite right. I was interrogated at Frankfurt.
DR. SAUTER: That is the affidavit which the Prosecutor has just put to you?
THOMS: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: How did you come to make the affidavit? Did you volunteer as a witness, or how did this happen?
THOMS: I want to point out to you that already a year ago when I was working at Frankfurt, I voluntarily gave the American offices the details of the transactions which were known to me in the matter of the gold of the Reichsbank.
DR. SAUTER: I see. So last year you already offered yourself as a witness?
THOMS: I wouldn't say as a witness in this matter. I merely placed myself at their disposal for the clarification of Reichsbank affairs for American purposes.
DR. SAUTER: Yes. Did you ever discuss this matter with the President of the Reichsbank, Funk?
THOMS: No. During my term of service, I never had an opportunity of talking to Minister Funk.
DR. SAUTER: Have you any positive knowledge, perhaps from some other source, as to whether President of the Reichsbank Funk had exact knowledge of these things, or is that also unknown to you?
THOMS: I cannot say anything about that either, because these matters happened on a higher level, which I could not judge.
DR. SAUTER: Then I would be interested in hearing something about this deposit, or whatever you call it, which was under the name "Melmer"?
THOMS: I want to point out that this was not a deposit, but that these were deliveries which were delivered under the name "Melmer." Insofar as the transactions were those which the Reichsbank had to deal with, the Reichsbank took over these articles directly, and insofar as it was a question of matters not pertaining to the bank, the Reichsbank to a certain extent was the trustee for the conversion of these things.
DR. SAUTER: More slowly, more slowly. Why was this matter, whether we call it a deposit or anything else, not dealt with under the name "SS," why was it given the name "Melmer"? Did you ask anybody about that, Witness?
THOMS: I have already mentioned at the beginning of the examination that this was a particularly secret affair in connection with which the name of the depositor was not to appear. In this case, therefore, it was Vice President Puhl who had to decide the way this affair was to be dealt with; and he desired and ordered this.
DR. SAUTER: Did only officials of the Reichsbank come to the strong-room where these things were kept, or did other persons also have access to it, for instance, people who had a safe in the strongroom?
THOMS: The Reichsbank did not have any private depositors, that is to say, we did not have any locked deposits which belonged to customers of the Reichsbank-at least not in those vaults. Deposits from private customers were in another vault so that there was no contact between the deposits of the bank and the deposits of the customers.
DR. SAUTER: But quite a number of officials went down there. You have already said that. There is one thing I am not clear about: On the one hand, you have told us that these articles were lying about openly on tables so that everybody could see them; and on the other hand, you said previously towards the end of your statement that these things were kept in locked boxes and trunks. How does that tally?
THOMS: I have stated that these things were delivered in closed boxes and trunks, and stored in them. When from time to time the deliveries were inventoried, the delivery which was to be dealt with naturally had to be opened and the contents counted, examined, and re-weighed. That, of course, could only be done by spreading out the contents, counting them, checking the weight, and then locking them in new containers.
DR. SAUTER: Did you perhaps on your own initiative tell Herr Puhl-after all, you were a bank councillor, therefore also a senior official-that you had misgivings about the whole business? Please think over the question and give your answer very carefully, because you are under oath.
THOMS: First of all, I have to say that I belonged to the group of officials of middle rank, but that is just in passing. Then, of course-or let me put it this way-when an official has worked for thirty years or longer for a concern and if throughout the long years of his career he has always had the feeling that the directors were irreproachable, then, I believe, he could have no misgivings if in a special case he is instructed to keep silent about a certain transaction. He would not object to carrying out this order. I have already said that the term "booty" was not unknown to us officials in the Reichsbank, because there was the order that all booty goods which came in from the Army were to be delivered directly to the Treasury, that is the Treasury of the Reich Government; and we in the Bank thought, of course, that the booty from the SS troops was to go through the Reichsbank. An official of the Reichsbank cannot very well oppose such an order. If the Directors of the Bank give him instructions, then he has to carry them out, because of the oath which he has sworn.
DR. SAUTER: So that, Witness, if I understand you correctly, you are telling us that at the beginning, at any rate, you considered that the matter was in order, and there was nothing wrong with it?
THOMS: At the beginning? As a matter of fact, I considered it correct that it should be carried right through.
DR. SAUTER: Did you ever have any doubts that this might be, let us say, criminal?
THOMS: Certainly I would have had doubts if I had had the knowledge and experience then which I have today.
DR. SAUTER: That is the same with everyone.
THOMS: Yes, quite right. As far as that is concerned, I had to suppress any doubts; I would not admit any doubts, because the affair was not known only to me, it was known to the Reichsbank Directorate and in the administration office of the Main Treasury. The valuables in the strong-room were checked every night by a deputy director of the Main Treasury, so that I was responsible only for the technical carrying out of this business; and the responsibility for the correctness of this transaction was not within my competence.
DR. SAUTER: I do not know about the responsibility but, Witness, I asked you, did you ever have any doubts, and at what precise moment did you consider the whole affair criminal? Did you consider it criminal?
THOMS: We assumed that these were goods which the SS-after they had partly burned down towns in the East, particularly in the battle for Warsaw-we thought that afterwards they captured this booty in the houses and then delivered this booty to our Bank.
DR. SAUTER: As booty?
THOMS: Yes. If a military department delivers booty goods it does not follow that an official who is entrusted with the handling of these things would have to consider these deliveries as being criminal.
DR. SAUTER: When taking over these articles, did you think, or did Vice President Puhl tell you, or at least hint to you, that these gold articles might have been taken from victims in the concentration camps?
THOMS: No.
DR. SAUTER: You did not think of that, did you?
THOMS: No.
DR. SAUTER: Not at all?
THOMS: Once we saw the name "Auschwitz," and another time the name "Lublin," on some slips of paper which we found. I said that in connection with Lublin we found this inscription on some packets of bank notes which came in to be dealt with and which were then returned to the Polish Bank to be cashed. Strangely enough, the same packets came back later after they had been dealt with by the bank. Consequently, here the explanation was that these could not be deliveries from a concentration camp, since they had come to us through official bank channels. As regards the camp at Auschwitz-well, I cannot say today with what sort of deliveries these slips of paper were found, but it is possible that they were slips attached to some notes, and perhaps they may have been deliveries of foreign bank notes, from the concentration camps. But then there were arrangements according to which prisoners of war, or prisoners, could exchange their notes for other money in the camp, so that such deliveries could have been made through legal channels.
DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, then, the meaning of what you have just told us is that you still considered the matter legal or lawful even when in 1943 you saw the inscription "Auschwitz" and "Lublin" on some items. Even then you considered the matter legal, didn't you?
THOMS: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Well, then, why did you in your affidavit of 8 May 1946-it is true it is not a sworn affidavit-tell the story somewhat differently? Perhaps I can read the sentence to you...
THOMS: Please, do.
DR. SAUTER: . . . and you can then tell me if I misunderstood you or whether the official took it down incorrectly. It says there, after first of all saying that you considered the matter to be legal: "One of the first indications of the origin of these articles was when it was noticed that a packet of bills, presumably bonds . . I'
THOMS: No, they were bank notes.
DR. SAUTER: ". . . were stamped 'Lublin.' "
THOMS: This occurred early in 1943.
DR. SAUTER: "Another indication was the fact that some articles bore the stamp 'Auschwitz.' We all knew these places were the sites of concentration camps. In connection with the tenth delivery in November 1942" that is, previously-"gold teeth appeared, and the quantity of gold teeth grew to an unusual extent." So much for the quotation from your unsworn statement of 8 May 1946. Now, will you please tell us: Does that mean the same as you said a little earlier, or does it mean something different in your opinion?
THOMS: That in my opinion tallies with my statement. We could not assume that deliveries which came through the concentration camp had to be absolutely illegal. We only observed that gradually these deliveries became larger. A delivery of notes from a concentration camp need not be illegal because of this. It might have been an official calling-in, especially as we did not know the regulations applicable to concentration camps. It would be perfectly possible that these people had the right to sell the articles in their possession or give them in payment.
DR. SAUTER: The dollars which you have also seen in that film would hardly be sold by anybody.
THOMS: May I point out to you that I was not of the opinion that these bank notes necessarily came from concentration camps. I merely said that the word "Lublin" was on some of the packets of bank notes. That might have pointed to their having come from a concentration camp; but it did not necessarily mean that these particular notes came from that concentration camp, and the same applies to "Auschwitz." The name "Auschwitz" cropped up. There may have been a certain suspicion, but we had not any proof, and we did not feel that we were in any way called upon to object to these deliveries of the SS.
DR. SAUTER: Consequently, Witness, apparently because you put this construction on it, you did not use the occasion to make a report to Vice President Puhl or the Directorate, or to voice any doubts; you did not have any cause for that?
THOMS: I called Vice President Puhl's attention to the composition of these deliveries as early as a few months after the arrival of the first delivery. Therefore, the general character of these deliveries was known to Herr Puhl. He knew the contents of the deliveries.
DR. SAUTER: But you told us earlier that the character of these deliveries did not seem peculiar to you. You considered that it was booty. And now you want to say that you called Vice President Puhl's attention to it and that he must have noticed something peculiar.