dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SAUCKEL: I say with full consciousness that to the best of my recollection this version is not completely correct. Laws regarding labor in occupied territories were not made on my order but on the order of the Fuehrer, and I did not have any argument about it with General Von Falkenhausen. We discussed it in a very friendly way, and he introduced the law. I do not remember having had any difficulties in this connection. And in another paragraph he states here that at that time he gave all his instructions on Hitler's orders. I myself had neither arguments nor difficulties with him.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct that in Holland the deportation of Dutch workers for forced labor was under the jurisdiction of the Reichskomrnissariat?
SAUCKEL: Please, would you hear the Defendant Seyss-Inquart about that? The expression jurisdiction is entirely new to me. In France, Belgium, and Holland this matter was dealt with through the administration of the labor departments, that is to say.. .
M. HERZOG: Who signed the orders concerning forced labor in Holland?
SAUCKEL: I assume that Herr Seyss-Inquart did.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct that the orders signed by the Defendant Seyss-Inquart constituted only a local application of the general program which you were charged with carrying out?
SAUCKEL: A local application in Holland? I do not quite understand it the way it is put in German.
M. HERZOG: Is it not correct that by signing the orders concerning forced labor in Holland the Defendant Seyss-Inquart was but implementing your program of forced labor?
SAUCKEL: It was a realization of the Fuehrer's labor program as he, the Fuehrer, had ordered it.
M. HERZOG: Did you go to Belgium or to Holland in order to control the implementation of the laws on forced labor?
SAUCKEL: Not to control. I was in Belgium and Holland only for a very short time. I had conferences there with the leading men, and according to my recollection I visited the labor authorities in Antwerp and saw how they functioned-the German ones.
M. HERZOG: And in the course of these journeys you were preparing detailed measures for the implementation of the labor program, is that not true?
SAUCKEL: I did not draft them during those journeys; I discussed them there. Of course, I did some work while traveling,
M. HERZOG: I submit to you Document Number PS-556, Exhibit Number RF-67. It is a letter which you wrote to the Fuehrer on 13 August 1943. In this you declare, Paragraph 1 of the letter: "My Fuehrer, "I take the liberty of informing you of my return from France, Belgium, and Holland, where I went on official business. After difficult and lengthy negotiations, I have imposed upon the occupied territories of the West, for the 5 last months of the year 1943, the program which is indicated below; and I have also prepared detailed measures for its implementation-in France through the military commander, the German Embassy, the French Government; in Belgium through the military commander; and in Holland through the offices of the Reich Commissioner." Do you still dispute, Defendant, the fact that you went to Belgium and Holland in order to prepare detailed measures there?
SAUCKEL: I have never denied that, I would like to say that I do not resent the expression, but only the way you present it now and then. It says quite clearly that they were discussed there; that is what is meant by preparation.
M. HERZOG: One last question on this matter: What is your estimate of the number of Dutch workers who were deported to Germany?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you exactly from memory how many Dutch workers were employed on the basis of contracts with them and on the basis of these laws. Maybe there were 200,000 or 300,000, maybe more. I cannot tell you offhand what these Dutch figures were.
M. HERZOG: Thank you. Is it correct that the forced recruitment of foreign workers was carried out with brutality?
SAUCKEL: Regarding the instructions which I issued, that was discussed adequately and clearly yesterday. My instructions are available practically in their entirety, and discountenance any brutal recruitment which...
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, you were not asked about your instructions, but you were asked whether brutality was shown. If you know, you can answer.
SAUCKEL: I cannot know. From time to time I heard about excesses, and I stopped them at once, and I protested against them when I heard of them.
M. HERZOG: Did you have knowledge of protests concerning the manner in which the recruitment of workers was carried out in the occupied territories?
SAUCKEL: I received protests, and that was discussed yesterday with my counsel.
M. HERZOG: And when you received those protests, what did you do?
SAUCKEL: I had those cases investigated and left any further measures to the authorities concerned. I did everything on my side to prevent and stop such occurrences, and that can and will be testified to here.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct that you appealed for the help of the Wehrmacht to insure the recruiting of foreign workers?
SAUCKEL: In those areas where the Wehrmacht exercised jurisdiction I passed on to the military commanders or commanders-in-chief, through the Quartermaster General of the Army, the instructions I received from the Fuehrer.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct that you asked the military authorities to put troops at the disposal of your offices and services?
SAUCKEL: I have no recollection of troops, but there were labor detachments there. It is true that in areas where there were uprisings or partisan fighting I asked that order be restored, so that the administration which had been disturbed or interrupted could be resumed. ,
M. HERZOG: You therefore asked that troops should be put at your disposal?
SAUCKEL: Not at my disposal. It was not my task to bring order to those areas. I explained that it was essential for the fulfillment of my own tasks and that I could only carry them out if proper administration were once more made possible by the establishment of order; it was not for recruiting purposes.
M. HERZOG: Did you not ask that those troops should participate in the tasks assigned to the service for the recruitment of labor? I submit to you Document Number F-815, which I put in under Exhibit Number RF-1514. It is a letter of 18 April 1944 from General Field Marshal Von Rundstedt and addressed to you. I read the first paragraph of it: "On the part of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor. . . "-that is you, is it not?
SAUCKEL: That is I, but there was another department in France, too...
M. HERZOG: ".... the request was made that the Commander, West should be approached to the effect that in sectors where there are units belonging to the Commander, West, the commanders of these units should receive orders to support the execution of the tasks assigned to the Allocation of Labor by making troops available." Do you still deny that you requested that troops should be put at your disposal?
SAUCKEL: I personally did not ask for them. This appears to be the administrative office West.
M. HERZOG: Are you not the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor?
SAUCKEL: Yes, but this order is not known to me personally.
M. HERZOG: Do you know whether this request was seconded by the Defendant Speer?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you.
M. HERZOG: I submit to you Document Number 824-PS . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps you better put that off until after the adjournment. The Tribunal recessed until 1400  hours.] Afternoon Session
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, I believe that Mr. Dodd has a statement to make to the Tribunal.
MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the Defendant Jodl is absent.
MR. DODD: Document Number 3057-PS, concerning which M. Herzog questioned the defendant this morning, was in the document book offered by the United States with reference to the slave-labor program, but it was not offered in evidence, and I found the reference in the record at Page 1397 of the transcript for 13 December 1945 (Volume III, Page 494) and the President of the Tribunal particularly asked why we had not read Document 3057-PS. I answered that we had intended to offer it, but that counsel for Sauckel had told me that his client maintained that he had been coerced into the making of the statement, and for that reason we preferred not to offer it, and were not offering it.
THE PRESIDENT: I want to announce that the Tribunal will rise this afternoon at half past 4 to sit in closed session.
SAUCKEL: May I be permitted to give my explanation on that document?
M. HERZOG: What document are you speaking of?
SAUCKEL: I am referring to the letter of the Field Marshal Von Rundstedt. This document represents a letter which is addressed to me...
THE PRESIDENT: I did not hear you ask any question. Did you ask your question?
M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. It is the document which I presented just before the recess, and the document shows that the official in charge of the recruitment and allocation of labor-that is he himself-asked that troop units should be put at his disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean Document F-815? Yes, very well.
M. HERZOG: That is correct, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant.] I ask you whether you recognize that this document establishes the fact that you requested troop units?
SAUCKEL: As far as this question is concerned I cannot answer precisely, for I personally did not receive this letter. Instead it was sent to Paris, to the office there. This letter is not initialed by me. But in order to clarify my position, I should like to emphasize specifically that I did not demand troops in order to recruit workers. I asked for troops when in certain areas the administrative procedure could not be carried through because of resistance activities, et cetera. In that connection there is an error in this letter of Field Marshal Von Rundstedt. But I did not receive this reply myself. It is initialed by the office of the military commander in Paris.
M. HERZOG: I submit Document F-824, which I hand to the Tribunal as Exhibit RF-1515. This Document F-824 is a letter from the Commander of the West, from his headquarters, dated 25 July 1944. I quote: "One can conclude from this that on the order of the Fuehrer, and after the abrogation of all contrary decrees, the desires of the Plenipotentiary General for the allocation of Labor. . ." This Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor is you yourself; is that not so? ". . . and of Reich Minister Speer must in principle be carried out. Following my telegraphic communication, on the basis of the conference of ministers of 11 July in the Reich Chancellery, concerning which the Commander of the West will be informed by the military commander, the following directives are in force from now on: "Without taking into account justified misgivings concerning security and order within the country, recruiting must start everywhere where the possibilities referred to in my telegram present themselves. As an only exception the Fuehrer has decided that in the actual fighting zone no methods of coercion will be used against the population as long as the latter are helpful to the Wehrmacht. On the other hand, the recruiting of volunteers among refugees from the combat zones is to be handled energetically. Moreover, all means will be considered justified, in order to recruit as much labor as possible from elsewhere by means at the disposal of the Wehrmacht." Do you again deny that at your request, and at that of Reich Minister Speer, troop units carried out the recruiting of labor?
SAUCKEL: I should like to remark in this connection that I do not dispute what has just been described. At that time the commander-in-chief was under the stress of battle and the evacuation of the population. But I can testify that after the date of 25 July 1944 these things did not apply any longer, for the withdrawal of German troops was much too rapid; so that this decree, which had been issued by the Fuehrer, was no longer in effect.
M. HERZOG: Do you remember the conference, the ministers' conference of 11 July 1944, to which the document I have just read refers?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I recall it.
M. HERZOG: Do you remember the persons who were present at this meeting?
SAUCKEL: Not all of them.
M. HERZOG: I submit to you the minutes of this meeting. It is Document 3819-PS, which has been handed to the Tribunal under number . . .
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like you to read the last passage in Document F-824-that is, not the last, but the last on that page beginning with "Afin...." It is on Page 346 of the French translation.
M. HERZOG: "In order to make the measures undertaken as effective as possible, the troops must be informed of the necessity of the Arbeitseinsatz organization so that they may put down the many acts of subversive and open resistance. The field commanders and military administration offices must give as much aid as possible to the delegates of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor and refrain from encroaching on their activities which are in conformance with instructions. I therefore ask you to give the necessary directions to this effect..." Do you still deny that at your request the Army was used for the recruitment of workers?
THE PRESIDENT: There is a passage on the next page, too, in the supplementary note, Paragraph 1.
M. HERZOG: "Supplementary note by the Commander of the West. "The Commander of the West reported to the Chief of the OKW on 23 July as follows: "1) In spite of anxieties concerning internal security, I have authorized the application of the Sauckel-Laval agreement of 12 May 1944. "2) I shall issue further instructions for the application of these measures in the combat zone in agreement with OKW/WFSt/Qu. (Verw. 1) 2 (West) Number 05201/44, Secret, of 8 July 1944. "The Commander of the West, signed Von Kluge, Field Marshal." "Further instructions follow. For the Commander of the West. The Chief of the General Staff," et cetera. I come back now to the conference of It July 1944. I submit to you Document Number 3819-PS, submitted under Exhibit Number GB-306. The Tribunal will find it under Document 3819-PS in the first part of my document book. It represents the minutes of the ministers' conference which took place on 11 July 1944 in Berlin, a gathering of ministers, chiefs of the Party, and of administration. You will find on Page 6 of the French translation the list of all the persons who were there. Do you remember who, among the defendants, were among those present? Do you recognize the signature of Defendant Funk? That of Defendant Speer?
SAUCKEL: I have not found it yet.
M. HERZOG: Have you found them?
SAUCKEL: I have not found Speer's signature yet.
M. HERZOG: Was Defendant Speer present at this conference!
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you from memory. I cannot find his name.
M. HERZOG: Were you yourself present at this conference?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I participated.
M. HERZOG: Do you remember the proposals which, in the course of this conference, General Warlimont made to you in the name of the General Staff? Do you remember the reply that you made to these proposals?
SAUCKEL: I recall a conversation between General Warlimont and myself on that occasion, and I gave an answer; but I cannot give it to you verbatim without having some data at my disposal
M. HERZOG: Well I am going to read you the text. It is on Page 10. The Tribunal will find it at the bottom of the page: "The representative of the Chief of the OKW, General Warlimont, referred to a recent order of the Fuehrer according to which all German forces would have to be used in the task of recruiting labor. Where troops of the Wehrmacht are stationed, whenever they are not engaged exclusively in military tasks-such as the construction of coastal fortifications-they will be available, but they cannot be detached solely for the purpose of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor. General Warlimont made the following practical proposals: "(a) Troops which are in action against partisans wit., in addition, have to be used for recruiting labor in the zones held by partisan bands...."
SAUCKEL: Would you please tell me where that is. I have not this passage on this page. Will you please show me the page?
M. HERZOG: I will have it shown to you. Point it out to the interpreter also.
SAUCKEL: Yes, I find the place about General Warlimont, but in the German translation it sounds entirely different from what you are reading.
M. HERZOG: It is on Page 3. Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
M. HERZOG: Then I can resume the reading of it. "(a) Troops which are in action against partisans will, in addition, be used for recruiting labor in the zones held by partisan bands. Any person who cannot give a satisfactory reason for his staying in that region will be compulsorily recruited. "(b) If large towns are totally or partially evacuated owing to food difficulties, all the population capable of work will be recruited for labor with the aid of the Wehrmacht. "(c) A special effort for recruiting labor among refugees from areas close to the front must be made with the aid of the Wehrmacht. "Gauleiter Sauckel accepted these proposals with gratitude and expressed the hope that results would be obtained by these means." Do you still continue to claim that the Wehrmacht did not cooperate in the recruiting of labor?
SAUCKEL: I did not deny that in the combat area, and for the purpose of maintaining order in the rear areas, these measures were proposed, but they were not carried through
M. HERZOG: Well, I am going to produce a document which refers to 3 or 4 days after this meeting of ministers. It is a telegram from Defendant Keitel, Document Number F-814, which I submit to the Tribunal under Exhibit Number RF-1516. It is a telegram addressed by Defendant Keitel to all military commanders. I call your attention to the fact that it bears the stamp of the labor department of the military commander in France. This is dated 15 July and here is the text of it...
THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, some of these documents are not tabbed and it is quite impossible to find them unless you tell us where they are.
M. HERZOG: I have tabbed only those documents which I intend to use several times, so that the Tribunal will be able to find them easily. Otherwise, the documents must be in the order in which I use them. Document F-814 should, therefore, be immediately after Document 3819-PS, unless I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT: 3819, you mean?
M. HERZOG: Actually it is after the document marked Document RF-15; it is the fourth document after Document F-814.
THE PRESIDENT: We have got 815 after that; after RF-15, we have Document F-815.
M. HERZOG: After 815 we have Document F-823, then F-824, and F-814, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, yes, now I see it.
M. HERZOG: This document contains the instructions which Keitel gave in connection with this meeting of leaders. I read the second paragraph: "The present situation demands the use of all conceivable means for the procurement of additional labor, because it is the fighting men who benefit first of all by all armament measures. In view of this fact, all questions concerning internal unrest, the increase of resistance and such matters must be put in the background. We must concentrate on giving every help and support to the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor. I refer to my directives for the co-operation of the Wehrmacht in the procurement of workers from France" Do you still contend that the Wehrmacht was not used for the recruitment of labor?
SAUCKEL: I must emphasize here again that I did not dispute that these things had been planned and ordered. I did not dispute that fact, and I should like to emphasize that again. But these measures were not carried through, and I would like to emphasize that also. And besides that, I did not send this telegram.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct to say that the German Police proceeded to take steps to recruit foreign workers?
SAUCKEL: How far the Police carried through their measures in detail, I do not know, but I do know that they carried through some measures on their own accord.
M. HERZOG: But is it not true that you recommended your offices to put themselves in touch with the chiefs of the Police, the SD, and the SS?
SAUCKEL: I considered both the SD and the Police to be regular and justified institutions, and I had to ask for their help when it was necessary.
M. HERZOG: You, therefore, admit that you recommended your offices to put themselves in contact with the chiefs of the Police, the SD, and the SS for the accomplishment of their tasks?
SAUCKEL: To support me in my tasks only where an orderly participation or the use of the Police was necessary from an administrative point of view-not for the recruitment of workers as such, but only to remove difficulties or disturbances in administration.
M. HERZOG: I ask you the question again, and I ask you to answer "yes" or "no." Did you recommend your offices to get in touch with the chiefs of the Police, the SS, and the SD?
SAUCKEL: I can only answer that question with a qualified "yes"-on occasions when it was necessary to call in police aid; not in order to carry through the task itself.
M. HERZOG: Is it true that the chiefs of the German Police assisted in the conferences which you held with the French authorities concerning the recruitment of labor?
SAUCKEL: Sometimes representatives of the Higher SS and Police Leader were present just as in the case of the French, where the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of the Police was present. I neither demanded that nor proposed it.
M. HERZOG: But you admit that the representatives of the German Police were present at these discussions? Can you give the name of one of these representatives? Do you know Standartenfuehrer Knochen?
SAUCKEL: Standartenfuehrer Knochen was in Paris, and on occasions he was present at these conferences.
M. HERZOG: Is it correct that the chiefs of the German Police attended the conferences which the German authorities held concerning labor problems?
SAUCKEL: To my recollection they attended various conferences, but that occurred at the proposal of the military commander, under whose direction these conferences took place.
M. HERZOG: Was there a representative of the Police at the conference of chiefs on 11 July 1944, which we mentioned just now in Document 3819-PS?
SAUCKEL: Do you mean the meeting at Berlin?
M. HERZOG: Yes, the Berlin meeting on 11 July 1944.
SAUCKEL: I believe Kaltenbrunner attended that conference. The meeting had been called by Reich Minister Lammers.
M. HERZOG: Did you never ask Himmler, in the presence of the Fuehrer, for the help of the SS in the recruitment of labor?
SAUCKEL: At a discussion with the Fuehrer in January, Reichs, fuehrer SS Himmler was present. On this occasion, as far as I recollect, I pointed out that the program for the year 1944, which had been drawn up by the Fuehrer, could not be carried through by me if the partisan menace and obstruction in certain areas were not removed. And that, of course, could only be done by the authorities who had jurisdiction there.
M. HERZOG: You admit, therefore, that you asked Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler to put his police forces at your disposal?
SAUCKEL: NO, it is not correct to put it in that way. I have to contradict you there. Neither I nor my offices could have police forces put at our disposal. I merely asked for help in those areas where I was supposed to carry through administrative measures and where a pacification and restoration of order was first necessary. Otherwise, I could not carry out my task.
M. HERZOG: I am going to show you Document Number 1292-PS. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal under Exhibit Number USA-225. It is the minutes of a meeting held in the presence of the Fuehrer on 4 January 1944. In my document book it is a little way after the marked document and is also marked with a tab. On Page 3 of the French text, Page 5 of the German text, you declared: "Success will depend mainly on what German executive forces are made available. My action cannot be carried through with native executive forces." Do you recognize that declaration?