dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, when you went and asked first the Foreign Minister and then Hitler to go to the United States, or have some one go to the United States, you testified, on Page 8708 of the record (Volume XII, Page 467) that you told Hitler this: "It seems vital to me that there should be someone constantly in America who could clarify German interests publicly, in the press, et cetera." Did you say that?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, is that what you actually said to Hitler?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to your own letter, Document Number 3700-PS to the Reich Marshal "In the beginning of 1940 I proposed to the Fuehrer that I should go to the United States in order to attempt to slow down America's assistance to England in the matter of armaments and, if possible, to prevent America becoming involved more deeply in the war." I ask you, which of those is true?
SCHACHT: Both of them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Both? Then you did not reveal to the Tribunal yesterday, when you reported the conversation, all that you had pretended that you would do in the United States, did you?
SCHACHT: No, certainly not. I wanted, for instance, to try to persuade the President to intervene for peace. That, too, I did not mention here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you also testified yesterday that you were never told about the extent, the type, and the speed of rearmament. Do you recall that?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But although you had no such information, you said it was too much?
SCHACHT: I had the feeling that one ought to go slowly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, let me remind you of certain statements made by General Von Blomberg concerning 1937. "Answer: 'At that time, the organization of the planned Wehrmacht was about complete.' "Question: 'When? 1937?' "Answer: 'I believe it was 1937.' "Question: 'Was that a plan that had been discussed with Doctor Schacht in connection with the financing, as to how big the Wehrmacht would be?' "Answer: 'Yes. Schacht knew the plan for the formation of the Wehrmacht very well, since we informed him every year about the creation of new formations for which we had been expending money. I remember that in the year 1937 we discussed what the Wehrmacht would need for current expenses after a large amount had been spent for creating it.' "Question: 'That means that you gave Schacht a clear statement of how much money each year went into the creation of new units, new installations, and so forth, and how much you were using for the operating expenses of the Wehrmacht?' "Answer: 'Exactly right.' "Question: When you say that by 1937 the plan had been fulfilled, do you mean in the main?' "Answer: 'In the main."' Another question. I skip two or three irrelevant ones. "When you say that Schacht was familiar with those figures, how were they brought to his attention?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: "Answer: 'The demands for the money needed were handed to Schacht in writing.' "Question: 'That means that in connection with the money which Schacht was raising for the rearmament program, he was informed of how many divisions and how many tanks and so forth would be procured through these means?' `'Answer: 'I don't think we put down the amount of money we would need for every tank and so forth, but we would put down how much every branch of the Wehrmacht, like the Navy or Air Force, needed, and then we would state how much was required for activating and how much for operating.' "Question: 'That is, Doctor Schacht could see each year how much of an increase there would be in the size of the Armed Forces as a result of the money he was procuring?' "Answer: 'That is certain.' " I ask whether you deny the statements made by Von Blomberg as I have put them to you?
SCHACHT: Yes, unfortunately, I must say that I know nothing about this. A member of the Reichsbank Directorate, Geheimrat Vocke, will testify tomorrow; and I ask that you put this matter to him so that the question will be clarified. The question was not one of informing me, but of informing the Reichsbank Directorate. Everything that I knew the Reichsbank Directorate naturally also knew.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Dr. Schacht, I don't care whether you know or didn't know as far as the Prosecution's case is concerned. What I am asking you these questions for is to know how far we can rely on your testimony.
SCHACHT: Yes, I understand.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So there will be no misunderstanding about that. And you deny that Von Blomberg was telling the truth when he says, when he reported to you in writing, those facts?
SCHACHT: Yes, unfortunately I must deny it. Evidently he does not remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you testified yesterday or the day before, that the so-called New Plan had nothing to do with the armament program, did you not?
SCHACHT: Nothing in particular with armament.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Oh, nothing in particular.
SCHACHT: No. I mean of course-the Tribunal was expressly asked whether I was to speak about the New Plan here or not, and the Tribunal decided that it was to be brought up at your crossexamination. I am prepared to inform you now about the New Plan before you...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Dr. Schacht, you have no objection to answering my questions, have you?
SCHACHT: Certainly not.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am referring to the answer which you gave-the one which you were not allowed to give-find the Page 8732 of this record (Volume XII, Pages 484 and 485): "Question: 'Some of your economic policies during the time you were Minister of Economics, which have been accused as being in preparation for war, were the so-called New Plan. What was that?"' And your answer: "May I state first of all that the New Plan had nothing at all to do with rearmament." And then you went into an explanation of the New Plan which the Court did not receive, and I am asking you only this question: Did you not say, in your speech on the Miracle of Finance on the 29th day of November 1938, this-after quoting a great number of figures: "These figures show how much the New Plan contributed to the execution of the armament program as well as to the securing of our food." Did you say that or didn't you?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is Document Number EC-611, Exhibit Number USA-622. Now, I understood you to say in your testimony that you really didn't have anything to do socially with Hitler or with the other Nazis and that you refused their invitation to lunch at the Reich Chancellery; and one of the chief reasons was that those present showed such abject humility to Hitler. Did you say that?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I want to read to you from your speech, Document Number EC-501, your inaugural speech on the occasion of the Fuehrer's birthday. This was a public speech, by the way, wasn't it?
SCHACHT: I do not know. I do not remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You made a speech on the Fuehrer's birthday on the 21st of April 1937, carried in the newspapers?
SCHACHT: Maybe.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: "We are meeting together here to remember with respect and love the man to whom the German people entrusted the control of its destiny more than 4 years ago." And then, after some other remarks, you say, "With the limitless passion of a glowing heart and the infallible instinct of a born statesman, Adolf Hitler, in a struggle which he led for 14 years with calm logic, has won for himself the soul of the German people." Was that a part of your published and public speech?
SCHACHT: I assume that you have quoted it quite correctly. I do not believe that anyone, on the occasion of the birthday celebration of the head of a state, could say anything very different. Mr. Justice, may I make one request. You have completely passed over the New Plan, while the Tribunal has pointed out that it was to be discussed here in cross-examination. If you are not going to refer to the New Plan, may I ask that the New Plan be discussed again in re-examination by my attorney.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I did not ask you what the New Plan was; I asked whether your statement that it had nothing to do with armaments was true or not. But if your solicitor wants to ask about it, it is open to ruling by the Tribunal. You quoted today Hitler's letter of the 19th of January 1939, in which you were dismissed from the presidency of the Reichsbank; and you did not quote the concluding sentence, as I recall it, which reads, "I am happy to be able to avail myself of your services for the solution of new tasks in your position as Reich Minister." That is a correct quotation, is it not?
SCHACHT: I refer to the testimony by the witness Gisevius, who has already said that outwardly Hitler would never indicate that there was dissension between himself and his collaborators but that he always attempted to give a false impression to the world. After January 1939 Hitler never asked for my opinion or my cooperation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you asked by anyone else?
SCHACHT: No. I cited this morning the occasions when I was asked for assistance. That was in connection with Belgium, and in connection with the periodical, Das Reich. I think that was all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you performed no functions whatever in reference to Belgium?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I quote your letter of the 17th of October 1940 to the Reich Minister of Economics, Document EC-504, USA-830. At that time you had ceased to be President of the Reichsbank, had you not?
SCHACHT: Yes. I was only a minister without portfolio.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: "So that the German banks in the occupied western territories need not work side-by-side, or rather against each other, you had assigned the Deutsche Bank the task of clearing the way for closer economic cooperation with Holland; and you entrusted the Dresdner Bank with the same task for Belgium." And you go on to describe that situation and say: "In order to remove this difficulty, you, Herr Reich Minister, have agreed that the undersigned comply with the requests of both banking houses for a decisive expression of opinion in this question. I have subsequently discussed the situation with both banks and it was confirmed in the course of the conversation that at present there is no tendency on the part of Dutch or Belgian financial institutions to enter into general ties with the German business men." Do you recall?
SCHACHT: Yes, I remember it, now that you have read it to me. May I make a statement, or what was your question?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I just wondered if you remembered that.
SCHACHT: Yes, and I ask permission to make a statement. It concerns . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If you think it needs explaining . . .
SCHACHT: I would think so; but I leave that to the Tribunal. If I may speak: It concerns a rivalry between two large banks. Both these large banks approached me-as a former banker and President of the Reichsbank-to decide the matter, and I did. I really do not see what that has to do with the official participation in the Belgian administration.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the purpose of your intervention was to avoid misunderstanding in the occupied countries between the banking interests of the occupied countries and the German banks, was it not?
SCHACHT: Certainly, they were to work together peacefully.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. Although you have said to the Tribunal that you were entirely opposed to the Germans being in there at all?
SCHACHT: Of course. But now that they were there I tried to keep peace.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You also were approached by Krupp von Bohlen about raising a fund known as the "Hitler spending fund," were you not?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never were?
SCHACHT: Never.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, that is most unfortunate-that your name should be connected with...
SCHACHT: Yes, I know the letter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never received such a letter?
SCHACHT: Yes, I know the letter, but I was not assigned the task of raising that fund.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you assisted in raising it, didn't you?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you contribute to it?
SCHACHT: I personally, certainly not. I do not know what you are accusing me of.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I thought you knew about the letter from Von Bohlen.
SCHACHT: Yes, but I ask you of what are you accusing me? Please tell me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you raise any money or help to organize a loan with Krupp Von Bohlen in May of 1933-the Hitler spending fund?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How did you answer Krupp van Bohlen's letter asking you to do so?
SCHACHT: Would you please remind me of what Herr Von Krupp wrote to me at the time?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Have you the letter of the 29th of May?
SCHACHT: Yes, one moment, please, I have nearly finished. May I reply now? From this. ..
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: First of all, did you receive such a letter?
SCHACHT: Yes, of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Tell us what happened.
SCHACHT: In that letter Herr Von Krupp informed me that industry and other economic circles, such as agriculture, et cetera, intended to organize a joint Hitler fund in order to combine in one collection the unrestrained Party collections which were making the entire country insecure. He informed me of this, and also of the fact that a board of trustees was to be appointed for this Hitler fund. I want to say that I never joined thet board of trustees and was not a member of it. He further informed me that the representatives of the banks, Dr. Fischer and Dr. Mosler, would contact me and inform me about these things. That is all that the letter says.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That I offer as Exhibit Number USA-831, (Document Number D-151). [Turning to the defendant.] Will you look at the following letter of the 30th of May 1933, which says they had the opportunity of mentioning it to you?
SCHACHT: One moment, please. I do not think the letter is in my document book. No, it is not here. [The document was handed to the defendant.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I asked you to read the letter of the 29th of May first; one of the 29th of May and one of the 30th. The 29th of May has not been translated.
SCHACHT: I see. Just a minute. I read. This letter never reached me. It has been crossed out and apparently it was not sent, because Krupp and I had a personal conversation to which Krupp refers in the letter of the following day, 30 May; the letter begins, "As Dr. Kottgen and I had the opportunity of mentioning to you yesterday.,." That apparently was a personal conversation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, and you had also said: "You were kind enough to promise me to obtain from Messrs. Otto Christian Fischer and Dr. Mosler. . . full particulars, and especially information on how far banks which are public corporations can participate in this task."
SCHACHT: No, Mr. Justice Jackson, it does not say that in the letter. Please, will you be good enough to read the letter of 29 May? Where does it say that I spoke to Dr. Fischer, or would speak to Dr. Mosler?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you deny receiving the letter of the 29th?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never received it?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you deny having a conversation with Krupp von Bohlen-Halbach, the substance of which is set forth in that letter?
SCHACHT: No-One moment. Please, let me answer quietly. I do not wish to be accused of anything without replying. -I did not receive that letter on 29 May, nor did I receive it later. Instead, there was a personal conversation. The subject of that conversation is contained in the letter of 30 May, which we read before and which I received. You have just asserted that I had promised Krupp von Bohlen to speak to Dr. Fischer and Dr. Mosler. The letter makes no mention of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Does it not say so in the memorandum which you say was replaced by a conversation? That is what I am trying to ask you.
SCHACHT: At any rate, I did not promise to talk to the gentlemen.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Anything more you want to say?
SCHACHT: No. That is enough.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, yesterday, I think it was, you testified that you had made public statements against the terror policy of the regime; and in evidence you quoted from your Konigsberg speech.
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Unfortunately, Dr. Schacht, you stopped just at the point where I got interested in it.
SCHACHT: Yes, that is generally the case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After you had stated that there are people who ran Germany-let me quote the part you quoted, because it is important in connection.. .
SCHACHT: Quote the whole thing.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. This is what you quoted: "Those are the people who heroically smear window panes in the middle of the night; who brand every German who trades in a Jewish store as a traitor; who condemn every former Freemason as a scoundrel, and who, in the just fight against priests and ministers who talk politics from the pulpit, cannot themselves distinguish between religion and misuse of the pulpit. The goal at which these people aim is generally correct and good." That is what you quoted?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now let us go on: "The goal at which these people aim is generally correct and good. There is no place in the Third Reich for secret societies, regardless of how harmless they are. The priests and ministers should take care of souls, and not meddle in politics. The Jews must realize that their influence is gone for all time." That was also a part of that speech, was it not?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you pointed out in that speech that on the Jewish problem, as you called it, legislation is being prepared and must be awaited?
SCHACHT: Yes, I had hoped so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You assured them so, did you not?
SCHACHT: I beg your pardon? Yes, that was the intention as I gathered from my conversation with Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that the laws on the Jewish subject were on their way?
SCHACHT: Not the laws which were passed later. I always urged Hitler to give legal protection to the Jews. I wanted to see this law enacted, and I assumed that it would be done; but instead the Racial Laws of September or November, yes, November, 1935, were passed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have quoted from Exhibit Number USA-832, which is Document EC-433, and you say the laws you were forecasting and promising were laws for the protection of the Jews?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We will get to that later. You gave your reasons, which you said were reasons of principle, to the Tribunal for not becoming a Party member?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yesterday in Court, do you recall that?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now isn't it a fact that you have told the United States Prosecution Staff that you asked Hitler whether to join the Party, and that to your great relief Hitler told you not to? SCHACHT- Yes. Before I co-operated with him I wanted to find out whether he demanded that I should become a member of the Party. I was most relieved when he Aid I need not.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you remained out of the Party with Hitler's consent and approval?
SCHACHT: Yes, of course. I think that is just another reason which will prove that I have never been a member of the Party.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you did not mention that to the Tribunal when you were giving your reasons for setting out, that Hitler had given permission?
SCHACHT: No, I thought the Tribunal would believe me anyway.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you received the Party golden swastika, you stated that it was the greatest honor that could be conferred by the Third Reich, did you not?
SCHACHT: I did, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And while you didn't wear it in your daily life, you did wear it on official occasions, you stated, did you not?
SCHACHT: Yes. It was very convenient on railroad journeys, when ordering a car, et cetera.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: From 1933 to 1942 you contributed a thousand Reichsmark a year to the Nazi Party?
SCHACHT: No. Yes, I beg your pardon; from 1937 to 1942.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Didn't you say on interrogation that it was from 1933 to 1942?
SCHACHT: No, that is an error. From 1937, after I had received the swastika. Evidently that is a misunderstanding. After I had received it I said to myself, '`It would be fitting-give the people a thousand marks a year, and have done with it."
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: For upwards of ten years, not quite ten years, you accepted and held office of one kind or another under this regime, did you not?
SCHACHT: From 17 March 1933 to 21 January 1943.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And as I understand you, that during this time, at least a part of the time, Hitler deceived you, and all the time you deceived Hitler.
SCHACHT: No, oh no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have misunderstood you?
SCHACHT: Yes. - MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well now . . .
SCHACHT: I believe that in the first years, at least, I did not deceive Hitler. I not only believe so, I know it. I only started to deceive him in 1938. Until then, I always told him my honest opinion. I did not cheat him at all, on the contrary...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What becomes, then, of your explanation that you entered his government in order to put brakes on his program? Did you tell him that?
SCHACHT: Oh, no. I should hardly have done that or he would never have admitted me into the government. But I did not deceive him about it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did he know your purpose in joining his government was to defeat his program by sabotage?
SCHACHT: I did not say that I wanted to defeat his program. I said that I wanted to direct it into orderly channels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you have said that you wanted to put brakes on it. You used that expression.
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Which meant slow down? Didn't it?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he wanted to speed it up, isn't that right?
SCHACHT: Yes, perhaps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never allowed him to know that you had entered his government for the purpose of slowing down his rearmament program, did you?
SCHACHT: It was not necessary to tell him what I was thinking. I did not deceive him. I made no false statements, but I would hardly tell him what I actually thought and wanted. He did not tell me his innermost thoughts either, and you do not tell them to your political opponents either. I never deceived Hitler except after 1938.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I daresay. I am not asking you about a political opponent. I am asking you about the man in whose government you entered and became a part.
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You don't tell your opponents; but is it customary in Germany that members of the government enter for the purpose of defeating the head of the government's program?
SCHACHT: I have already told you that the word defeat is incorrect. I did not intend to defeat him. I intended to slow him down; and that is indeed the custom, for that is how every coalition government is constructed. If you enter into a coalition government, you must discuss certain matters with your neighboring parties and come to an agreement about them, and you must use your influence to check certain projects of the other party. That is not a deception; it is an attempt at a compromise solution.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You claim you entered as a coalition?