dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
BODENSCHATZ: As far as I remember the following were present: Hermann Goering; Herr Dahlerus, from Stockholm; six to eight English economic experts, whose names I do not recall; I was present, and there was an interpreter, Ministerialrat Dr. Bocker.
DR. STAHMER: Can you tell us about the subject of this conference?
BODENSCHATZ: I cannot remember it word for word, but as far as I can tell you Hermann Goering made the following statements . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, did the witness say where this conference took place?
DR. STAHMER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you tell us where it was?
DR. STAHMER: [To the witness.] Please repeat where this conference took place.
BODENSCHATZ: The conference took place at the beginning of August at Soenke Nissen Koog near Husum, Schleswig-Holstein.
DR. STAHMER: Please continue. You were going to tell us about the subject of this conference.
BODENSCHATZ: I repeat, in substance, Goering made the following statement: At that moment relations between England and Germany were very tense. Under no circumstances should this tension be increased or peace be endangered. The welfare and the trade of our two countries could only flourish and prosper in peace. It was to the greatest interest of Germany and Europe that the British Empire should continue to exist. Goering emphasized that he himself would do his utmost for the maintenance of peace. He requested the British business leaders, on their return home, to use their influence in authoritative circles for that purpose.
DR. STAHMER: Did Goering give you his opinion on how the foreign policy of the Reich should be carried out? When and on what occasions did conversations take place?
BODENSCHATZ: Hermann Goering often discussed these topics with me, in 1938 and 1939, especially during the period following the Munich agreement. These conversations would take place perhaps in connection with a report, or perhaps in his special train. Hermann Goering was always of the opinion that the policy of the Reich must be directed in such a way as to avoid war if possible. Hermann Goering dealt with this topic at particularly great length in a conference with the Gauleiter in the summer of 1938 in Karinhall. Dr. Uiberreither, whom I have previously mentioned, has already given further sworn testimony to this effect.
DR. STAHMER: Did Field Marshal Goering speak to you before leaving for Munich in September 1938?
BODENSCHATZ: Before Hermann Goering left for Munich, he told me he would do everything within his power to effect a peaceful settlement. He said, "We cannot have war." He exerted his influence on the Fuehrer to this effect, and during the negotiations in Munich he worked decisively for the preservation of peace. When he left the conference hall after the conference at Munich he said to us spontaneously, "That means peace."
DR. STAHMER: Did he often discuss with you for what reason he was against a war, and on what occasions?
BODENSCHATZ: We talked about this topic very frequently. He always said to me: "In the first World War as an infantry officer and as an air force officer I was constantly at the front. I know the horrors of a war, and, therefore, my attitude is to preserve the German people from these horrors if possible. My ambition is to solve conflicts peacefully." In general, his opinion was that war is always a risky and unsure business. Even if you win a war, the advantages are in no relation whatsoever to the disadvantages and sacrifices which have to be made. If you lose the war, then, in our position, everything is lost. Our generation has already experienced the horrors of a great World War and its bitter consequences. To expect the same generation to live through another war would be unthinkable. I would like to add that Hermann Goering, according to his inner thoughts and character, was never in favor of war. Nothing was further from his mind than the thought of a war.
DR. STAHMER: Did Goering converse with you about what were, according to his wish, the aims to be accomplished by the rearmament which Germany had undertaken? When and on what occasion?
BODENSCHATZ: Hermann Goering spoke with me about these matters in the year 1935 after the Wehrfreiheit had been proclaimed. He described Germany's rearmament, after vain attempts to achieve general limitation of armament, as an attempt at equality with the armament of other countries, in order to be able to collaborate with other powers in world politics with equal rights.
DR. STAHMER: Did conversations of this kind take place after 1935 also?
BODENSCHATZ: Yes. Now and then we resumed such conversations and he spoke in a similar vein.
DR. STAHMER: Did you find out through Reich Marshal Goering what purpose the Four Year Plan was to serve?
BODENSCHATZ: I happened to speak with Goering about this matter in the year 1936, and that was the Four Year Plan had been announced. He explained it to me as follows: That in this plan he saw a means of securing for Germany those raw materials which she could not import in peacetime because of the lack of foreign exchange or whose import in an emergency might possibly be cut off.
DR. STAHMER: When and on what occasion did Goering give you his opinion on the Russian campaign?
BODENSCHATZ: Towards the end of 1941, after the first reverses in the Russian campaign, Hermann Goering talked with me about the fighting in the East. He said to me: "Adolf Hitler foresaw a very hard battle in the East, but he did not count on such reverses. Before the beginning of this campaign I tried in vain to dissuade Adolf Hitler from his plan of attacking Russia. I reminded him that he himself, in his book Mein Kampf , was opposed to a war on two fronts and, in addition, I pointed out that the main forces of the German Luftwaffe would be occupied in the East, and England, whose air industry was hit, would breathe again and be able to recover."
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off for 10 minutes? [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has observed that the witness is using notes whilst giving his evidence. The ruling which I announced this morning was confined to the defendants and did not extend to witnesses. Nevertheless, the Tribunal will allow the same rule to be applied to witnesses. But the evidence must not be read, the purpose of the rule being merely to assist recollection in giving evidence. [Turning to Dr. Stahmer.] Yes, Dr. Stahmer.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether people turned to the Reich Marshal with the request that their relatives should be freed from concentration camps or to help them in their difficulties with the Gestapo?
BODENSCHATZ: The Chief of Staff is the person who can answer that question. I myself only heard that such requests were made to the Reich Marshal.
DR. STAHMER: Did you not have to deal with such requests in the military section?
BODENSCHATZ: In the military section I had to deal with the requests which were concerned with the Luftwaffe. But they were only requests regarding the arrests of German citizens who stated that they had not been given the reason for their arrest. We also received communications regarding detention, grievances, and also regarding arrests of Jews. Requests of this kind came to me only from Luftwaffe sources or from my immediate circle of acquaintances.
DR. STAHMER: How were such requests treated?
BODENSCHATZ: Such requests were always treated as follows: Most of the requests, which came from the broad masses of the people, were submitted to the Reich Marshal through the Staff. Those requests that came from the Luftwaffe were presented through my office, and requests that came from the Reich Marshal's relatives or friends, they themselves presented. The Reich Marshal did not refuse his help in these cases. In individual cases he asked the Fuehrer personally for a decision. In all the cases that I dealt with help could be given.
DR. STAHMER: Did many Jews turn to Goering with requests for help?
BODENSCHATZ: Yes, Jews, and particularly Jews of mixed blood applied to Reich Marshal Goering.
DR. STAHMER: How were these requests handled?
BODENSCHATZ: The Reich Marshal did not deny his help and he gave instructions whenever possible that help should be given.
DR. STAHMER: What was Goering's general attitude to human society?
BODENSCHATZ: In his feelings, thoughts, and actions, as far as human society was concerned, he was a benefactor to all in need. He was always ready to help those who were in need, for instance sick people, wounded, the relatives of those who had been killed in the war and of prisoners of war. Care for the working classes was particularly important to him. Here is an example of this: The introduction of miners' compensation. Every miner who had completed 25 years of steady work was to receive over 20,000 marks. This is one of his most important social works.
DR. STAHMER: Did you know of the conditions in the concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: I had no knowledge of the conditions in the concentration camps.
DR. STAHMER: Were the concentration camps spoken of at the Fiihrer's headquarters during discussions with the Fuehrer, or on any other occasion?
BODENSCHATZ: In the Fuehrer's headquarters I never heard the Fuehrer speak about the concentration camps. He never discussed them in our circle.
DR. STAHMER: Was the question of the annihilation of the Jews discussed there?
BODENSCHATZ: No, it was not; not in his discussions with me, at any rate.
DR. STAHMER: Not even in discussions on the war situation?
BODENSCHATZ: No, I cannot remember him ever discussing the annihilation of the Jews in my presence during discussions on the war situation.
DR. STAHMER: Did anyone else there mention anything?
BODENSCHATZ: No.
DR. STAHMER: Not Himmler?
BODENSCHATZ: He never discussed the subject with Himmler. I have only heard since being in prison that Himmler's reply to people who spoke to him on this matter was, "What you have heard is not true; it is incorrect." I personally did not discuss this question with Himmler.
DR. STAHMER: Did you know how many concentration camps there were?
BODENSCHATZ: Everyone knew that the camps existed, but I was not aware that so many existed. It was only after the war that I learned the names of Mauthausen and Buchenwald from the newspaper. I only know of the camp of Dachau because I happen to come from Bavaria.
DR. STAHMER: Did you never hear of the atrocities either?
BODENSCHATZ: No, I never heard of the atrocities. The very first time I heard was last year, when I reported to the Reich Marshal -- to be exact it was the middle of March 1945 -- when I reported my departure on sick leave. The Reich Marshal told me during lunch that very many Jews must have perished there and that we should have to pay dearly for it. That was the first time that I heard of crimes against the Jews.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions. I can now turn the witness over to the other Defense Counsel and to the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions of this witness? DR. HANS LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and High Command of the German Armed Forces): I have only a few questions to ask this witness. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, in your capacity as liaison officer of the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe at the Fuehrer's headquarters you took part, as you have already mentioned, in the. discussions on the war situation. Did you also take part in discussions on the war situation when front-line commanders were making their reports to Hitler?
BODENSCHATZ: I personally did not take part in such discussions. At two discussions, however, I was in the adjoining room, once when Field Marshal Von Kleist was there for a conference, and the second time was when the leader of the Crimea Army came to make a report after the evacuation of the Crimea. I was, as I said, not actually present at those conferences, but I heard, in the adjoining room, that there were some differences of opinion between Hitler and the commander in question as they were raising their voices. That is all I can say.
DR.LATERNSER: Did you hear enough to follow the trend of this discussion?
BODENSCHATZ: No, I could not follow the trend nor the substance of these discussions.
DR. LATERNSER: In that case I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions? [There was no response.] Then does the Prosecution wish to ask any questions?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: May it please the Tribunal. [Turning to the witness.] You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
BODENSCHATZ: I beg your pardon. Could you please repeat the question. I did not understand it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
BODENSCHATZ: At the present time I am a prisoner of war of the United States.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have been interrogated on a number of occasions by representatives of the United States?
BODENSCHATZ: I was interrogated several times by representatives of the United States.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have also had a number of consultations with Dr. Stahmer who has just examined you?
BODENSCHATZ: I have had several discussions with Dr. Stahmer who has just addressed questions to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Those questions were addressed to you some time ago and you prepared your answers in writing?
BODENSCHATZ: Those questions were submitted to me beforehand and I was able to prepare my answers.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Coming to the subject of the concentration camps and the activities of your department in releasing persons from them -- as I understand, a large number of applications came to the Goering office for release from concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: I stated before that the requests for release from concentration camps did not come to my department but to the Staff office. I received only the requests and complaints in which people begged for help because they had been arrested, among them Jews who were to be arrested.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And were those applications that did come to you numerous?
BODENSCHATZ: My sector covered only the Luftwaffe.. There were perhaps 10 to 20 such applications.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those applications were from persons who were threatened with imprisonment, or had been imprisoned, or both?
BODENSCHATZ: Partly from people who were threatened with arrest and partly from people who had already been arrested.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in each case, as I understand you, you intervened to help them.
BODENSCHATZ: On the instructions of the Reich Marshal, I helped in all cases that were submitted to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you know of any other cases that came to the Staff in which help was not given to the imprisoned persons?
BODENSCHATZ: I do not know anything about that. I only heard from Dr. Gritzbach, Chief of Staff, that requests that came to him also were settled in a humane way.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, were the persons that you intervened for innocent of crime or were you helping out those who were guilty of crime?
BODENSCHATZ: Those I helped were innocent people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So it came to your notice that innocent people were being put in concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: Could you please repeat that question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It came to your notice that innocent people then were being put in concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: Had not been put into concentration camps, but were destined for them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I thought you said you intervened for some who had been arrested.
BODENSCHATZ: Yes; they were not taken to concentration camps. I will give you a practical example. A comrade of mine, from the Richthofen Squadron, a Jew by the name of Luther, was arrested by the Gestapo, that is to say, he was not taken to a concentration camp, but first was simply arrested by the Gestapo. His lawyer informed me. I informed the Reich Marshal of this case, and the Reich Marshal instructed me to have this man freed from his temporary custody by the Gestapo in Hamburg. He was not yet in a concentration camp. So far as I know this case happened in 1943.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was he charged with when he was arrested?
BODENSCHATZ: He was arrested because he was a Jew, and he had been told that he had committed an offense against decency in that he had been with an Aryan woman in a hotel.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you make any inquiries as to whether the charge was true?
BODENSCHATZ: I did not have to make such inquiries because I had no difficulty in obtaining his release. When I called up, he was released and thereafter stayed under the protection of Hermann Goering.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Whom did you call up to get his release?
BODENSCHATZ: The chief of the Gestapo office in Hamburg. I do not know the name. I did not make the call myself but had it done by my assistant, Ministerialrat Dr. Bottger.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So that the Gestapo would release persons upon the request of Hermann Goering?
BODENSCHATZ: Not from Hermann Goering's office, but the Reich Marshal gave instructions that it should be carried out, and it was carried out.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I thought you said your assistant called up. Did Goering also call the Gestapo himself?
BODENSCHATZ: No, he did not call himself, not in this case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So that even though this man may have been guilty of the charge, if he belonged to the Luftwaffe he was released, on the word of the Reich Marshal?
BODENSCHATZ: He was not a member of the Luftwaffe, he was a civilian. He had previously been one of our comrades in the Richthofen Squadron. He was not in the Wehrmacht during the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But your instructions were to release all persons who were Jews or who were from the Luftwaffe? Were those your instructions from Goering?
BODENSCHATZ: The Reich Marshal told me, again and again, that in such cases I should act humanely, and I did so in every case..
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How did you find out that Jews were arrested against whom there were no charges?
BODENSCHATZ: In one case, in the case of the two Ballin families in Munich, these were two elderly married couples, more than 70 years old. These two couples were to be arrested, and I was informed of this. I told the Reich Marshal about it, and he told me that these two couples should be taken to a foreign country. That was the case of the two Ballin couples who, in 1923, when Hermann Goering was seriously wounded in front of the Feldherrnhalle, and was taking refuge in a house, received him and gave him help. These two families were to be arrested.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: For what?
BODENSCHATZ: They were to be arrested because there was a general order that Jews should be taken to collection camps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew of that order?
BODENSCHATZ: I did not know of the order. It was only through these examples which were brought to my notice that it became clear to me that this evacuation was to take place. I had never read the order myself nor even heard of it, because I had nothing to do with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It came to your attention that Jews were being thrown into concentration camps merely because they were Jews?
BODENSCHATZ: In this case I am not speaking of concentration camps, but it was ordered that people were to be brought to collection camps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Not concentration camps, but special camps? Where were they going from there?
BODENSCHATZ: That I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where was this special camp that you speak of?
BODENSCHATZ: I do not know where they were to be taken. I was told they were to be taken away.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But neither you nor Goering had any suspicion that if they were taken to concentration camps any harm would come to them, did you?
BODENSCHATZ: I knew nothing about what took place in the concentration camps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now did you not hear about the concentration camps, and was not the purpose of your saving these people from going to them, that the people who went there were mistreated?
BODENSCHATZ: I must reiterate that I freed people from their first arrest by the Gestapo that were not yet in the concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What would the Gestapo take them into custody for, if not the concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: What purpose the Gestapo was pursuing with these arrests I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you intervened to save them from the Gestapo without even finding out whether the Gestapo had cause for arresting them?
BODENSCHATZ: If the Gestapo arrested any one, then they must have had something against him.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you made no inquiry into that, did you?
BODENSCHATZ: I have already said it was generally known that these people were taken to collection camps, not concentration camps. It was known -- many German people knew that they were to be taken away. They knew that the people were taken to work camps, and in these work camps they were put to work.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Forced labor?
BODENSCHATZ: It was just ordinary work. I knew, for instance, that in Lodz the people worked in the textile industry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where were they kept while they were doing that work?
BODENSCHATZ: I cannot say, for I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were in a camp, were they not?
BODENSCHATZ: I cannot tell you all that, for I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You would not know about that?
BODENSCHATZ: I have no idea.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What is the difference between a work camp and a concentration camp? You have drawn that distinction.
BODENSCHATZ: A work camp is a camp in which people were housed without their being in any way ill-treated.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And a concentration camp is where they are ill-treated? Is that your testimony?
BODENSCHATZ: Yes. I can only tell you that now because in the meantime I discovered it through the press and through my imprisonment. At that time I did not know it. I learned it from the newspapers. I was a prisoner of war in England for quite a while, and I read about it in the English press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You spoke of collection camps, that many people knew they were being taken to collection camps to be taken away. Where were they being taken away?
BODENSCHATZ: I do not know where they went from there.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you ever inquire?
BODENSCHATZ: No, I never inquired.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were adjutant to the Number 2 man in Germany, were you not?
BODENSCHATZ: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you never ventured to ask him about the concentration camps?
BODENSCHATZ: No, I did not speak to him on that subject.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The only instruction you had was to get everybody out that you could.
BODENSCHATZ: Where a request or a complaint was made, I followed those cases down, and in those cases I assisted.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You knew that Hermann Goering was a close co-worker with Himmler, did you not?
BODENSCHATZ: I did not know that he was a fellow worker with Himmler, because he never worked with him directly. Himmler frequently came for discussions with Hermann Goering, but these were private conversations just between the two.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that he was not only a friend, but that he had aided Kaltenbrunner to his post when Kaltenbrunner came into office, did you not?
BODENSCHATZ: No, that I did not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not know that?
BODENSCHATZ: I did not know that Reich Marshal Goering recommended Kaltenbrunner for his office. My activity was confined simply to the military sector. I was military adjutant to the Reich Marshal. I had nothing to do with these matters.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you have anything to do with the procedure of making full Aryans out of half-Jews?
BODENSCHATZ: On the question of mixed blood, requests concerning the Luftwaffe came to me, and in fact, officers, according to the regulations, would have to be dismissed if they were of mixed blood. In many cases the Reich Marshal gave instructions that these officers should not be dismissed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was done about it?
BODENSCHATZ: In these cases the chief of the personnel office was instructed not to dismiss these officers.