dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not interested in that. I will try to help your memory by quoting a few excerpts from a supplementary report of the Yugoslav Government, which is submitted to the Tribunal as Yugoslav Exhibit, Document Number USSR-357. On Page 5, in the third line of the Russian text of this document, it says: "In 1937 there began among the Volksdeutsche in our country an orientation towards National Socialism, and the first groups of youth started going to Germany for special courses of instruction." Further down on Page 8, we read that later on, but before the war with the Soviet Union, the greater part of these members became officers of the German Army. In addition, a special SS division, "Prinz Eugen," was formed from among members of the youth organizations. Do you deny these facts?
VON SCHIRACH: I can admit some; others I must deny. May I explain this? Since 1933 I tried to bring about good relations with Yugoslav youth. Starting in 1936 or 1937 I extended invitations to Yugoslav youth groups, as well as to youth groups of all European countries, to visit and inspect German youth institutions. Yugoslav youth groups actually came to Germany in reply to my invitation. But I know nothing about the enlisting of Yugoslav youths in the German Army; I do not believe that. I can only say that at the time of the regency of Prince Regent Paul there was very close collaboration with Yugoslav youth. During the war we maintained good relations with both Serbian and Croatian youth. German youth visited Serbia and Croatia, while Serbian and Croatian youth came to German youth camps, German youth leader training schools, and so on, and looked at our institutions. That, I think, is everything I can say about this. But we had friendly relations not only with Yugoslavia but also with many other countries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not understand me correctly. I was not speaking of Yugoslav or Croatian youth. I am speaking of the youth of the German minority in Yugoslavia who are mentioned in this report and who, with the help of the Hitler Youth, created centers of Fifth Column activity to engage in subversive operations and recruit for the SS units and the Wehrmacht. That is what I am speaking about. Are these facts known to you?
VON SCHIRACH: I know that there were young people among the German minority in Yugoslavia, just as in Romania and Hungary. I know that this German youth felt that it belonged to the Hitler Youth, and I think it is perfectly natural that these young people welcomed the German troops on their arrival. I cannot give information on the extent to which collaboration existed between the troops and the youth but that it did exist is also quite natural. Of course, it could not be considered military collaboration, but rather the kind of co-operation which will always exist between an occupying force and the youth of the same country or nationality as the members of that force. But that has nothing to do with espionage or the like.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the major part of the SS Division "Prinz Eugen" which was formed on Yugoslav territory was made up of Hitler Youth members from the German national minority in Yugoslavia; and this was the result of the preparatory work of the Hitler Youth Do you admit that?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how the divisions of the Waffen-SS, of which there were very many, were recruited. It is possible that some members of the German minority were recruited then and there, but I have no definite information on this.
GET. ALEXANDROV: I will quote a few excerpts from two German documents. They have not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. The first excerpt is from a book by Dr. Sepp Janko who was the youth leader in Yugoslavia, entitled Speeches and Articles . He wrote: "All our national work before 1 September 1939 depended on the help of the Reich. When on 1 September 1939 the war began and it at first appeared impossible to receive further aid, there was a danger that all our work would be interrupted...." And later: "The fact that in this cause, so decisive for a nation and its worth, I put at the disposal of the Fuehrer almost the entire German national group in the former State of Yugoslavia and gave him so many volunteers as soldiers, is to me a subject of great pride...." I submit this to the Tribunal as evidence; Exhibit USSR-459. The next excerpt is from an article, "We in the Batchka," written in 1943 by Otto Kohler who was leader of German youth in that territory. I submit this document to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-456. Otto Kohler wrote in that article: "Ninety percent of our youth are members of the Hitler Youth, the youth organization for Germans abroad." The statements ought to convince you that the subversive activity and organization of the Fifth Column, the "nazification" of the German minority and its enlistment in military units were actually carried out on Yugoslav territory through the Hitler Youth. Please answer "yes' or "no."
VON SCHIRACH: No. But I should like to comment on these documents. This Dr. Sepp Janko who is said to have been the leader of the Volksdeutsche in Yugoslavia is not known to me either by name or personally. I have visited Yugoslavia several times in the past, but neither in 1937, when I believe I was there for the first time, nor later in 1938 when I visited Prince Regent Paul, did I concern myself with the Volksdeutsche youth there or with their leaders. On those visits I spoke only with youth of Yugoslav nationality. That is all I have to say about the first document, which on the whole does not refer to youth at all. The second document, which is signed by one Otto Kohler, who calls himself the "D. J. leader"-probably German youth leader-in Subdivision 7, to that document I can only say that it was taken from a book about German youth in Hungary which appeared in 1943. In the Batchka we had a very large settlement of Germans, people who had been living there for 150 or 200 years, and this youth leader organized the German youth there with the approval of the Hungarian Government and the Hungarian Minister of Education and in collaboration with other Hungarian authorities. It was an entirely legal measure, and no controversy existed about it between the two countries. These young people were not members of the German Hitler Youth, but they belonged to Hungarian youth groups of the German minority in Hungary.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And did the Reich Leadership of Hitler Youth have no connection at all with such organizations abroad?
VON SCHIRACH: Of course we visited these youths. When, for instance, I was a guest in Budapest, the Hungarians themselves asked me whether I would like to visit the villages and the youth of the German minority. Neither the Regent nor any other government authority had any objections to this. There was no reason why I should ask German youth leaders to engage in espionage in Hungary. I could just as easily have asked Hungarian youth leaders with whom I was on very good terms.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Who was the leader of the Hitler Youth organizations abroad? There was a special foreign section in the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth. Its task was the direction of the German youth organizations abroad, was it not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership was, if I may say so, the "foreign office" of the younger generation. It was the task of the foreign office to maintain contact with other national youth organizations, to invite youth leaders from abroad, to organize tours of foreign youth organizations through Germany, and to arrange visits of German youth to other countries, in co-operation with the foreign offices of those countries; in a case like this, the foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership would approach the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office would approach the ambassador or representative of the country involved. The Organization of Youth Abroad to which you are referring was an organization subordinate to the Organization of Germans Abroad, the head of which was Gauleiter Bohle, who has already been heard in this court. This youth abroad consisted of German nationals who formed units of the Hitler Youth in the countries where they were living. For instance in Budapest the children of the German colony, starting with the children of the German Minister...
THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Defendant, it is not necessary to make such a long speech about it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You are giving too many details. The next question: In the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories, a special youth department was created in the first main of lice. What do you know about the work of this department and what was its relationship to the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth? Please answer briefly.
VON SCHIRACH: From my knowledge, I can say that when the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories was created, Reichsleiter Rosenberg expressed a wish that the Reich Youth Leader should put at his disposal an official for the youth department in the new Ministry. This official was appointed; he was taken into the Ministry and directed its youth department. He was, of course, responsible to the Eastern Minister. I cannot say more about this point. Reports from this department did not reach me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mean that the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth appointed a representative to a post in the Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories, and that this gentleman did not send in any report to the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: General, I meant that the head of this department or whatever he was, this official in the Eastern Ministry who came from the Hitler Youth, did not report to me. He naturally reported to his immediate superiors in the Reich Youth Leadership. The Reich Youth Leadership was located in Berlin, and I assume that the officials of its staff were in constant touch with him.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As I understand it, the measures that were carried out by the youth department in the Reich Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories were carried out with the knowledge of the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: The measures taken there were carried out according to directions laid down by the Reich Minister, who was the immediate superior of his officials. If actual youth measures, the treatment of youth, and so on, were dealt with, I am sure that this official or youth leader discussed the matter with the Reich Youth Leadership and made a report to it. The Minister is always responsible for the youth official in his Ministry, and not the organization from which the youth official happens to come.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. To the question put to you by your defense counsel regarding the participation of the Hitler Youth in the atrocities committed in Lvov, you answered that the testimony of the French citizen, Ida Vasseau, supplied by the Extraordinary State Commission, is not true. Mr. President, the Soviet Prosecution has had occasion to interrogate the witness Ida Vasseau. The defense counsel for the Defendant Schirach also requested an interrogation. I now submit to the Tribunal excerpts from the testimony of the witness Vasseau, dated 16 May 1946, and I would like to submit it as Exhibit USSR-455. I shall now read the excerpts into the record: "The atrocities against the Jewish and the Soviet population of Lvov were perpetrated not only by adult Germans and old Nazis, but also by the German youth of the Fascist youth organization in Lvov. These youngsters, dressed in uniforms, armed with heavy sticks, hunting knives, and often with pistols, ran about the streets, broke into Jewish apartments and destroyed everything in them. They killed all the inhabitants of these apartments, including the children. Very often they stopped children who looked suspicious to them in the streets, shouted: "Stop, you damned Jew!" and shot them on the spot. This Hitlerite youth was often active in locating Jewish apartments, hunting Jews in hiding, setting traps, and assaulting innocent people on the streets, killing them if they were Jews and dragging others away to the Gestapo. Often their victims were Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, and people of other nationalities. This terror of adult and young Germans continued until the last day of the German occupation of Lvov. The intention of completely annihilating the Jews was especially apparent in the "Ghetto actions" in which Jewish children of various ages were systematically killed. They were put into houses specially set up for Jewish children and when sufficient children had been assembled, the Gestapo accompanied by the Hitler Youth broke in and killed them." I end the reading of the statement of Ida Vasseau.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Thus, the Hitler Youth in the service of the German army, SS and the Gestapo took part in these atrocities. Do you admit that?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe a word of what is contained in this document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, that is your affair. Mr. President, I am submitting to the Tribunal another document, USSR-454, excerpts from the testimony of the German prisoner of war Gert Bruno Knittel. Gert Bruno Knittel, a hatter by trade, was born in 1924 in Saxony. After 1938 he was a member of the Hitler Youth. His sister Ursula was also a member of the National Socialist League of German Girls (BDM). In 1942, when he was 18 years old, he was called up for the German Army. Thus, he is a typical representative of the Hitler Youth, and his testimony is therefore of interest. This is what he relates about his service in the German Army. I quote: "Not less than twice a week we were called upon to comb out the forests."
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I must object against the use of this document of which we have just received a copy. It does not appear from this copy whether the document was actually signed, whether it was sworn or who drew up this document, which seems to be a report. I must object to this document until these questions have been clarified. Perhaps in this connection, Mr. President, I might comment on the other document which contains the testimony of Ida Vasseau-the writing is difficult to read. I assume that this witness is identical with the French national Ida Vasseau to whom a questionnaire was sent a long time ago with the permission of the Tribunal. We have been constantly waiting for the answers to this questionnaire, and now today we receive this report dated 16 May 1946, which apparently refers to the same witness. It is obvious that...
THE PRESIDENT: I am not following quite what you are saying. Are you saying that you have issued a questionnaire to the person who is alleged to have made this document?
DR. SAUTER: The High Tribunal approved a questionnaire to a French woman, Ida Vasseau; I will spell the name, V-a-s-s-e-a-u. This is the French woman, Ida Vasseau, who was working in an establishment in Lvov, and who is mentioned in the Lvov Commission report. Perhaps you remember, Mr. President, that one of these reports says that children were taken from the ghetto and given to the Hitler Youth and that the Hitler Youth used these children as live targets. That is the statement of the witness Ida Vasseau, and I am sure that she is the same person who is now mentioned in the report of 16 May 1946. The remarkable thing is that in the report of 16 May 1946, she does not answer the questions which are set down in the questionnaire' but makes further allegations which are obviously not contained in the earlier Lvov Commission report. This is a very mysterious matter, and I believe it would not be just to the Defendant Von Schirach if I did not call your attention to these contradictions.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: May I give my explanation?
THE PRESIDENT: We would like to hear you in detail, General, in answer to what Dr. Sauter has said.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Ida Vasseau, excerpts from whose statement I have read, is certainly the person of whom Dr. Sauter is speaking. I do not know to whom and through what channels the interrogatory was sent; it was not sent through our office. Ida Vasseau was interrogated on our own initiative and we could do so only on 16 May. A special interrogatory was not received by us, and we could not have sent it because the evidence was given only . . .
THE PRESIDENT: I have only got this document here in German and it doesn't appear to be a document signed or made by a person called "Vasseau" at all. I don't know whether it is dealing with something that Ida Vasseau is alleged to have said.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed.
THE PRESIDENT: I said it wasn't signed by Vasseau.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed by Ida Vasseau Thom and also by the interrogating officials, namely the Chief of the Investigation Branch, Public Prosecutor's Department for the Lvov Region, Kryzanovsky, and the public prosecutor for the Lvov Region, Kornetov. The interrogation took place on 16 May 1946.
THE PRESIDENT: Look at this document and see if it is the right document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, these are excerpts from the interrogation of Ida Vasseau.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the same document?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, that is the same document which we are now submitting to the Tribunal
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the original you have got before you?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, this is an excerpt from the record, certified by the Chief of Documentation of the Soviet Delegation, Colonel Karev. This is not the original record of the interrogatory. These are excerpts from it.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which is admissible under Article 21 or what are you saying about it?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: We are submitting it. If the Tribunal considers that it is necessary to bring out the original of the record, which at the present moment is at Lvov, we will be able to do so in a short time. If the Tribunal is not satisfied with these excerpts, we will very easily be able to submit the record in full - THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell us what the document is? Is it an affidavit? Is it sworn to? Is it made before an official of the Soviet Union?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: There is a note on the record referring to the responsibility for false testimony, as set forth under Article 89 of the Penal Code of the Ukrainian S.S.R. This warning is in accordance with the requirements for legal procedure in the Soviet Union, and this warning was given to Ida Vasseau, as a special certification on the record shows.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which fits within Article 21 of the Charter?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but if the Tribunal consider it necessary, we will later be able to submit the complete original record. I am now asking the Tribunal to accept the excerpts from this record which have been certified by the Chief of our Documentation Division.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, what is the date on which your interrogatory was allowed by the Tribunal and what was the date on which it was sent out to this person?
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the interrogatory bears the date of 11 April.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The interrogatory could not be sent because we did not know where the witness Vasseau was. We only discovered it recently.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that the interrogatory has not been administered to the person who made this statement?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This interrogatory could not have reached its destination because, I repeat, until quite recently the whereabouts of the witness Vasseau was unknown.
THE PRESIDENT: When you did find out where the witness was, the interrogatory could have been administered.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, it can be sent to her. It can be done now if it is necessary.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I point out the following: This woman, Ida Vasseau, was in Lvov when this statement which is mentioned in the Commission Report was made; that is clear from the report. I believe it is USSR-6, but I am not quite certain. Now, on 16 May of this year, this woman, Ida Vasseau, was also at Lvov; and her whereabouts were not unknown, since she was interrogated on that day. I had discussed the interrogatory which was sent to Vasseau with the Prosecution; it was at first said that the questions were suggestive or that something was not in order. But we came to terms and I altered the questions which I submitted to the High Tribunal according to the wishes of the Prosecution; so if the Soviet Delegation were willing, Ida Vasseau could be interrogated at any time. It is remarkable that in this later statement, this woman testified on something entirely different from what is set forth in her previous statement, and something entirely different from what she was asked in the interrogatory. I think it would be useful if Ida Vasseau were examined here.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, what previous statement do you mean? What previous statements do you mean?
DR. SAUTER: The statement in the commission report of the City of Lvov. This commission report was read here once and it says that the Hitler Youth committed these outrages against the children; my questionnaire, which the Tribunal approved, deals with this point.
THE PRESIDENT: General, was the interrogatory submitted by Dr. Sauter shown to the witness Vasseau?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, it was not sent to her. May I, to clarify the matter, come back to the history of this interrogatory? The Soviet Prosecution submitted a document, the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission on German Atrocities in the Lvov Region, and this document contained a statement by the witness Ida Vasseau; no one interrogated her at that time. In this statement she said that she witnessed how the Hitler Youth used small children as targets. That was her statement in the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission. This document was accepted by the Tribunal. Then, on our own initiative-Dr. Sauter's interrogatory did not come to us and we did not send it out-the whereabouts of Ida Vasseau was established. She was examined by interrogating officers and supplemented the testimony which she had given before the Extraordinary State Commission. I am now submitting to the Tribunal excerpts from her interrogatory on 16 May in which she dwelt on certain details of the treatment of children by the Hitler Youth.
THE PRESIDENT: We all understand that, General, but the question is: Why, if interrogatories had been allowed by the Tribunal and had been seen by the Prosecution and were dated sometime in April, why was the witness interrogated in May without having seen these interrogatories? This document is dated 16 May 1946, isn't it, Dr. Sauter?-Dr. Sauter tells us that interrogatories allowed by the Tribunal were dated in April.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not know where Dr. Sauter sent his interrogatory. He did not send it through our office. I repeat that we did not send this interrogatory and could not have sent it on, for we did not know where Ida Vasseau lived. On our initiative steps were taken to establish her whereabouts, and when we found her she was interrogated, namely on 16 May.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now. [The Tribunal recessed until 1415 hours.] Afternoon Session
THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal will not admit this document at the present time, but it would wish that you should present the original document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the Secretary General for a report upon the whole matter.