dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SAUCKEL: As far as I know and remember there were 5 million foreign workers in Germany at the end of the war. Several million workers returned to neutral and allied and western countries during the war, and they had to be replaced again and again, which was the cause of those new programs which were constantly being made. That is the explanation. Those workers who were already there before my time, and those who were brought in, probably might have reached a figure of 7 million, but during the war there were several millions who returned to their home countries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And also, a large number perished as a result d hard slave labor! That is not what I have in mind at the moment. In your documents you probably meant actual manpower and not those who perished or those who were absent. Could you tell us how many were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the war?
SAUCKEL: I have already given you the figure.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Five million?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You continue to assert that that is so?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I maintain that at the end of the war there were, according to my statistical department and as far as I can remember, 5 million workers in Germany, because millions of workers continuously returned. The experts can give you a better answer than I. The contracts with the others were only 6 and 9 months, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: Your question is, is it not, how many were brought into Germany, how many foreign workers, during the whole of the war? Is that the question you are asking?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, it is, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your answer to that?
SAUCKEL: I have already stated that, including the workers who were there before my time, before I came into office, and including those who were there at the end, there may have been about 7 million. In accordance with my records, there were 5 million at the end, because the others had gone back.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but that is not what you are being asked. You are being asked: How many persons were brought to Germany from foreign countries during the whole of the war? You say there were 5 million at the end of the war, and there were constant changes in the preceding years. It follows that there must have been more than 5 million people brought to Germany in the course of a year.
SAUCKEL: I would estimate 7 million, but I cannot give you the exact figures because I am not sure about the figures before my time. At any rate, there must have been millions who returned home.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Up to 30 November 1942 you quoted the figure of imported labor at 7 million...
SAUCKEL: Workers employed in Germany, and that includes prisoners of war, in 1942.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: All right, including prisoners of war, 7 million. Is that right, 7 million by 30 November?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you for certain. It may be correct, but I cannot tell you without documentary evidence.
GEN. ALEXANDROV-: I will show you the document tomorrow. Today, please answer my question. You said that during 1943 approximately 2 million additional workers were imported.
SAUCKEL: In 1943?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, in 1943.
SAUCKEL: I said 1.5  to 2 million.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is to say, 7 million plus 2 million make 9 million in ale Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: No. I said expressly that some were going back all the time, and I did not add the prisoners of war to the new imported labor.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You do not seem to understand me. I am speaking of those who were brought to Germany from the occupied territories, who passed through your hands. To answer this it is of absolutely no importance how many of them perished in Germany, or how many left. That does not change the total number of workers brought to German territory from abroad. If, therefore, by 30 November 1942 there were 7 million workers in Germany, and, according to you, in 1943 a further 2 million were brought in, and in 1944, as you just said, 900,000 were again brought in; then, according to you, the total number of workers imported into Germany during the war must have amounted to 10 million. Is that right?
SAUCKEL: I can say that only with the reservation that I do not know how many were actually there before my time. That may be correct as a guess, and including all prisoners of war who were assigned for work. You have, however, to deduct the prisoners of war from the civilian workers who were brought into the country.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now. [The Tribunal adjourned until 31 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, I did not get a satisfactory answer yesterday to my question as to how many foreign workers were imported into Germany from the occupied territories. You will now be handed Document Number 1296-PS. It is your report of 27 July 1942. In addition, Document Number 1739-PS will also be handed to you. It is your survey of conditions as of 30 November 1942. I wish to explain to you that in this case we are dealing with the number of foreign workers imported into Germany, including prisoners of war. The loss of this manpower in this case is of no importance, since it will not change the number of persons imported into Germany. They were brought to Germany, but later perished either as a result of work beyond their strength, or else were returned as incapable of work. Did you receive these documents?
SAUCKEL: Yes. Please let us have a look at the documents, as we are dealing with figures.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Pray do so. In Document Number . . .
SAUCKEL: I have not yet finished. I cannot...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is not essential for you to acquaint yourself with the contents of all the documents. In Document Number 1296-PS, on the last page of the report, at the end, you will find Section V. It is entitled, "General Summary . . ." Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: No, I have not yet found the passage. Which document, please?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Document Number 1296-PS. Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I have found this passage.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It gives the total figure as 5,124,000. Is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: 12 million, did you say? 12 million?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: 5,124,000 persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The translation said 12 million.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That was an error.
SAUCKEL: In connection with this document I must state emphatically that the figure here is indicated as 5,124,000. It includes 1,576,000 prisoners of war, but the latter do not rank with the civilian workers. The prisoners were the responsibility of the Armed Forces and during their employment, or during their employment by the generals in charge of the prisoner-of-war camps, they were housed and cared for in the individual military areas.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: They were employed in the German industries. Please read after me Subparagraph V: "General Summary of Foreign Workers . . . at present employed in Germany."
SAUCKEL: Yes. That is correct.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is all I want. Now take . . .
SAUCKEL: Please, have I your permission to explain that these prisoners of war were not housed and cared for in the factories or by the DAN (German Workers' Front) but were billeted in the camps which were under the jurisdiction of the generals in charge of prisoners of war in the military areas, and they were consequently not included with the civilian workers in my statistics.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As far as the number of prisoners of war working in your organization is concerned, a supplementary question win be asked later on. Actually, I am interested to know how many civilians and how many prisoners of war were employed in the German industries. Do you. confirm this figure of 5,124,000? Is this figure correct or not?
SAUCKEL: That is a correct figure for this particular time. But in order that the Tribunal may get an exact picture of the procedure I should like to be allowed to refer to a very accurate document. That would be Document Number 1764-PS. It deals with the exact enumeration of individual workers from individual countries, and of prisoners of war about 6 months later. I submitted it to the main Reich offices, and to the Party offices in Posen. It was also submitted to the E Fuehr and to the Reich offices. . .
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have to interrupt you . . .
SAUCKEL: I beg you to allow me to complete my explanation. I must completely clarify these matters here and now. My conscience demands that I do so before the entire world. For February 1943, that is half a year later, there appears on Page 7 of Document Number 1764-PS another exact enumeration with a figure of 4,014,000 civilian workers and 1,658,000 prisoners of war. The sum total-this figure was very accurate-was 5,672,000. That in spite of the inclusion of more foreign civilian workers this figure was not materially increased has been proved by the fact- as I already stated yesterday-that civilian workers from western, southern, and southeastern territories for the most part had labor contracts binding them for 6 months only. Whenever possible, when under my charge, these contracts were observed; for otherwise, had l failed to keep to the contracts, that is, if I had not insisted on doing so, I would never have obtained any more workers. If I employed several hundred thousand workers in half a year and then sent them back again, this figure would always disappear again because they went home. Therefore, far more civilian workers entered Germany than officially stated at any one time-than appeared in the total amount-for the number of those returning would always have to be deducted, and there were very many of them. A French document has been presented which is a report from the Envoy Hemmen in Paris. My counsel will be good enough to tell me the PS number later. It shows that French workers, about 800,000 of them came to Germany; but these figures are not in accordance with those issued by my department, but in accordance with a statement from the French Embassy. In 1944 there were only 400,000 left in Germany as, owing to the time limits of their contracts, these contracts were expiring every day and thousands were returning home daily. Roughly 50 percent of the contracts would expire while another 50 percent would still be working. That is an exact explanation of this statement, made in all conscience.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As to what these labor contracts actually were, those so-called labor contracts, I shall mention at a later date. My French colleague, during his examination, sufficiently proved the criminal methods used in the mobilization of workers in the West. How this was done in the East I will tell you a little later on. I should now like you to confirm the figures of your report- 5,124,000 persons. Is this an exact figure, or is it not? I am not asking for any superfluous explanations. You are asked to state only whether this figure is correct or not.
SAUCKEL: It is correct for the time this statement was made, but it changed constantly for the reason I have mentioned.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This figure is dated 24 July 1942; that is quite clear to everybody. Now, take the second document, 1739-PS. The last page of 1739-PS, where you will find the following sentence: "Only then can we be sure that the immense number of foreign workers, both men and women, in the territory of the Reich-which has now reached 7 million, including all working prisoners of war-will furnish the greatest possible assistance to the German war industry." Does this sentence occur there? Is the number of 7 million given there?
SAUCKEL: The figure of 7 million is quoted here and includes all prisoners of war employed as labor at that particular time...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I know what is written there. I am asking you: Is this figure of 7 million contained in the document or not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, it is written in this document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is the correct figure?
SAUCKEL: It is the correct figure, and I am asking the Tribunal that I be allowed to read the two following sentences as well because you are accusing me of resorting to criminal methods. I, on my part, did all I could, and used all the influence I had, to prevent the use of criminal methods. This is proved by the two following sentences which I shall now read, and which state. ..
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am obliged to interrupt you once more.
SAUCKEL: Please, may I add to the explanation I have already given, in accordance with the possibilities granted to me by the Tribunal, two more sentences in support of my declaration: ". . . undernourished half . . . "
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Let him read the two sentences he wants to read.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: They have absolutely nothing to do with the question of the number of workers imported into Germany...
THE PRESIDENT: I have not got the translation of the document, so I cannot tell. I want to hear him read the sentences.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then read them, please.
SAUCKEL: ". . . half-desperate Eastern Workers would be more of a hindrance than a help to the war economy. "It is essential that all the government offices, right down to the factories concerned"-for these, I must add, I was not responsible-"should be quite clear on the subject, and that is my constant endeavor." I merely wanted to show my conscientiousness by those two sentences, and how sincerely I endeavored to carry out my task which was an extremely difficult one for me.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Defendant, will you kindly answer the questions and only give explanations when it is necessary to explain the answer. All you were asked was whether the figure of 5,124,000 in the first document was correct and whether the figure of 7 million in the second document is correct, and you said both of them were. Now go on, General.
SAUCKEL: I have already answered that it is correct, that the figure of 7 million is given in this document. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do not want any more explanations.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I can understand perfectly well that you are not interested in increasing these appalling figures even by a single point, let alone by several millions. Yesterday you stated that in 1943, 2 million more foreign workers came to Germany, and in 1944 a further 900,000 persons.
SAUCKEL: I must definitely correct that. I did not say that, but it is true that from July 1942 until the end of 1943 about 2 million foreign workers came to Germany, not in 1943 only. From February 1943, for instance, until the end of 1943 only 1 million came to Germany because we' were experiencing considerable difficulties at the time. But from July 1942 until the end of 1942 about 1.5 million arrived, so that in 11/. years 2 more million were added to the first number which I mentioned yesterday.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is already known how many you received in 1942. Yesterday you stated quite definitely that in 1943 about 2 million workers came to Germany. Is that correct? I am talking of 1943.
SAUCKEL: If I am supposed to have said that yesterday I do not remember it, for it is not true; but the truth is that from about July 1942 until the end of 1943 about 2 million foreign workers were sent to Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal is not really interested in the exact number of foreign workers who came to Germany. It does not seem to us to make very much difference whether 5 million or 6 million or 7 million came there. It is extremely difficult to follow the figures.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not intend to determine the numbers of workers brought to Germany with mathematical precision. I do, however, consider it quite indispensable to realize the scale on which these crimes were committed. I would like the Defendant Sauckel to state definitely how many workers were brought to Germany during the war.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I just told you we do not consider it important. You say that you do not want to ascertain with mathematical accuracy, but we have spent a considerable time in attempting to do so.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This can be explained by the fact that the Defendant Sauckel does not give a precise reply to the questions put to him. . [Turning to the defendant.] Tell me, do you consider such methods of warfare, the mass driving into slavery of millions of people from the occupied territories, to be in accordance with the laws and customs of war and human morality in general?
SAUCKEL: I do not consider slavery and deportation admissible. Please allow me to add the following explanation to this clear reply. Personally, I was firmly convinced that it is no crime. . .
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please do not evade the question.
SAUCKEL: I am not evading the question, but I may and I have the right to give an explanation of my reply; I have already given the answer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Give a direct answer.
SAUCKEL: It is necessary for my defense...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not think it is necessary. Answer directly: Do you consider these methods criminal or do you not?
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, General, you asked the defendant whether he considered it honorable. Let him answer it in his own way. It is not a question whether a thing is honorable. He is entitled to answer it freely.
SAUCKEL: Now that I have given a clear reply to the effect that I could not be convinced in all conscience that I was committing a crime, I ask permission to read out the relevant sentences from Document Sauckel-86 in Document Book 3. They contain the instructions which I gave to my department and to the industrial concerns: "We are not concerned"-I quote-"with material things but, and I would emphasize this again very definitely, with human beings, with many millions of human beings, every single one of whom-whether we want it or not-makes his criticism from his own point of view, be he a German or a foreign worker. "On the other hand, the output of the individual, be he a Volksgenosse"-that means a German-"or not a Volksgenosse"-that means an alien-"be he a friend or an enemy of Germany, will always depend on whether he admits to himself that he is being treated justly, or whether he comes to the conclusion that he has been exposed to injustice. "Be just"-I may add that this was my order to my departments-"Be just! There are many questions which you cannot always answer by merely studying my instructions, or the Gesetzblatt, or the Reichsarbeitsblatt...."
THE PRESIDENT: We do not want to go into a very long speech, you know, about a question like that. I mean, you do not want to read all your instructions to your subordinates again.
SAUCKEL: No, I only want to read two more sentences, Your Lordship: "The worker's life is so rich that it cannot be comprised even in many thick volumes. But every human breast harbors a feeling which says to him, 'Have you been treated with kindness and justice . . .' "
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, that is enough. We have heard enough of that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, in July 1944 a conference was held at Hitler's headquarters to deal with the question of the treatment of foreign workers in case of a further successful advance of the Allied armies. Do you know anything of this conference or not?
SAUCKEL: May I ask once more-what was the date?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am asking you about the conference which was held at Hitler's headquarters in July 1944. Do you know anything about this conference or do you not?
SAUCKEL: I cannot remember for certain. I must ask you to place some document before me. I cannot remember any meeting in July because from 20 June 1944, or thereabout, I was no longer admitted to the Fuehrer for any discussions.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is enough for me. That means that you do not know anything at all about this conference? Tell me, for what purpose, for what kind of work were the foreign laborers employed who had been imported into Germany? Is it correct to state that they were primarily employed in the armament and munitions industries?
SAUCKEL: Workers were brought to Germany for employment in the armament industry. The armament industry is a very wide term, and is not identical with the manufacture of arms and munitions. The armament industry includes all products-from matches to cannons-that have anything to do with supply for the army. It is, therefore, necessary, within this broad, far-reaching term, to limit or isolate the manufacture of arms and munitions. Moreover, workers were brought to Germany for all other branches of civil economy essential to the war effort, such as agriculture, mining, skilled trades, and so forth. We made three distinctions: War economy, which meant the entire German economy in wartime; armament economy meant. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Defendant, we do not want a lecture upon that, you know. All you were asked was whether they were brought there for work in the armament industry.
SAUCKEL: A part of them.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I should like you to answer whether the workers brought to Germany were primarily employed in Germany's war industries and for military purposes? Is that right or not? I mean in the broad sense of the word.
SAUCKEL: In the broad sense of the word, yes, including the entire economy in wartime.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then the utilization of imported manpower was subordinated entirely and fully to the conduct of the war of aggression by Germany? Do you admit that?
SAUCKEL: That is stretching the idea too far. My own views, according to which I acted and could only act at the time, excluded the word "aggressive."
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please answer briefly if it appears to go too far. Tell me do you admit it or do you not?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your part as organizer of the mass drive into slavery of the peaceful population of the occupied territories is sufficiently clear. I should now like to Dass over to the elucidation of the part played by the individual ministries in this matter. Please enumerate the ministries and other government organizations which directly participated in carrying out the requisite measures for the mobilization and utilization of foreign manpower. Mention has already been made of the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, of the War Ministry and of the OKW, so that it is not necessary to speak about them again. Kindly enumerate the others.
SAUCKEL: On the plan, which has also been submitted to your delegation, Mr. Prosecutor, there are some small inaccuracies, inaccuracies made by the draftsman. I have not seen the completed drawing, but I took it for granted that the original drawing, as submitted to me, was correctly made by the draftsman. These small inaccuracies and deviations can be rectified, and the plan will then be unmistakably clear and offer the soundest explanation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel has stated here that this plan is not sufficiently accurate. It is precisely for that reason that I ask you this question and request you to explain which ministries and other government offices played an immediate part in the mobilization and utilization of foreign manpower, over and above those which I have already indicated.
THE PRESIDENT: General, he says that it is substantially correct, and that there was only one minor alteration suggested in it. Surely that is sufficient for us.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, Sauckel's defense counsel has himself stated that there are a number of inaccuracies in the plan. I will, however, endeavor to facilitate this task. [Turning to the defendant.] Please tell me how the Foreign Office was connected with this matter.
SAUCKEL: The Foreign Office was connected with this matter in the following way: It had to establish connections with countries where embassies, legations, or German delegations were acting. Negotiations would then take place under the chairmanship of the head of an embassy or delegation. The Foreign Office always made every effort to conduct these negotiations in a suitable way and in a proper manner.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: On 4 January 1944 a meeting was held with Hitler. This is Document 1292-PS. It is written in Subparagraph 4 of the minutes of this meeting, "The Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor must, before taking measures, contact the Minister for Foreign Affairs." What did that mean in this particular case?
SAUCKEL: In this case it meant that if I had to negotiate with the French or the Italian Government, I would first have to get in touch with the Minister for Foreign Affairs.