dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. FRITZ: Witness, before answering the next question, will you check your memory very carefully, and particularly remember your oath. Was it the aim of this propaganda for which Fritzsche received orders and which he carried out, to arouse unrestrained passions tantamount to incitement to murder and violence, or what was its purpose?
VON SCHIRMEISTER: No. The minister could not use passions at all in his propaganda, for passions flare up and die down again. What the minister did need was a steady and constant line, steadfastness even in hard times. Stirring up of passions, inciting to hatred, or even murder would not have appealed to the German people nor could Dr. Goebbels use anything like that.
DR. FRITZ: Did German propaganda abroad, especially in Russia, come under the direction of the Propaganda Ministry at all?
VON SCHIRMEISTER: I must differentiate here. I do not know whether I should go into the well-known differences between Dr. Goebbels and Ribbentrop. At the beginning of the war the Foreign Office had demanded charge of all foreign propaganda, namely, propaganda in foreign countries, radio propaganda broadcasts to foreign countries, and propaganda directed towards foreigners living in Germany. Very disagreeable controversies resulted; the problem was put to the Fuehrer himself, but finally both sides interpreted his decision in their own favor.
DR. FRITZ: Witness, would you, perhaps, be a little more brief?
VON SCHIRMEISTER: Very well, I can leave that. The differences between the two men are well known. However, in regard to Russia, I must add that there both press and propaganda came under the jurisdiction of Herr Rosenberg up to about March of 1944. And in this sphere as well, Dr. Goebbels. ..
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, wait a minute. What has this Russian propaganda got to do with the defendant?
DR. FRITZ: No; the German propaganda in Russian territory- that is what I asked him about. He is only going to say one sentence about it; in fact, he has already said it,
VON SCHIRMEISTER: Up to 1944, Rosenberg-to the great concern of Dr. Goebbels who believed that the Russian campaign could have been won in the field of propaganda.
DR. FRITZ: I have one more question to put to you. Yesterday, when Herr Fritzsche was being cross-examined, the Prosecution submitted several interrogation records; among them, for example, that of Field Marshal Schorner, in which the testimony is unanimous in saying that Fritzsche was the permanent deputy of Goebbels as Propaganda Minister. Is that correct?
VON SCHIRMEISTER: That is bare nonsense. I cannot imagine how a statement like that came to be made. There is not a word of truth in it.
DR. FRITZ: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any of the other defendants' counsel want to ask any questions of the witness? [There was no response.] Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, the Prosecution do not intend to question this witness; but this does not mean that we accept without objection the testimony which he has given here.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I should like to point out and request the Tribunal to take judicial notice also of the documents which are contained in both my document books but which I did not quote. In my Document Book Number 2 there is another affidavit deposed by Dr. Scharping, a document which I offer to the Tribunal as Document Number Fritzsche-3, Pages 16 to 19. This affidavit deals with the attitude of the Defendant Fritzsche on measures which Hitler had planned after the large-scale air attacks on the city of Dresden. May I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the entire contents of this affidavit, on Page 16 and the following pages, Document Book Number 2.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, the Tribunal observe that in Exhibit 3, which you have just presented to us, there is a statement by the person making the affidavit that after the bombing of German cities in the fall of 1944, "Dr. Goebbels stated that there was no longer any objection to handing over crew members of crashed airplanes to the wrath of the people." The Tribunal would like to have the Defendant Fritzsche back in the witness box and to question him about that. Did you ask any questions of the Defendant Fritzsche in reference to this matter in your examination of him?
DR. FRITZ: No, Mr. President, I expected-I wanted to say at the conclusion of my ease that I had expected a statement on this subject from the representative of the protecting power, the Swiss Ambassador in Berlin. This statement has, however, not yet reached me. I wanted to ask permission to submit it later if it arrives in time.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that another interrogatory or affidavit that you ' mean?
DR. FRITZ: Yes, it is a statement which deals with this subject.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. FRITZ: And if I may be permitted to add this, Mr. President, I also expect a statement from a British radio commentator, Clifton Delmar. That statement has not yet arrived. May I perhaps submit that?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, you may. But what the Tribunal is concerned with at the moment is that they think it material that they should know...
DR. FRITZ: Yes, I quite understand, Mr. President. [The Defendant Fritzsche resumed the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: You are still under oath. You may sit down. You have read this affidavit?
FRITZSCHE: But I no longer remember it in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: We did not hear the answer to that.
FRITZSCHE: I no longer recall in detail this affidavit which my counsel has just submitted to the Tribunal. I know that it exists, however.
THE PRESIDENT: The statement that the Tribunal wished you to be asked about was this: "Beginning in the fall of 1944, Dr. Goebbels also spoke about this frequently during his so-called conferences of ministers . . ." I'll begin before that: "The increasing effect of English and American air bombardments on German cities caused Hitler and his more intimate advisers to seek drastic measures of reprisal. Beginning in the fall of 1944, Dr. Goebbels also spoke about this frequently during his so-called conferences of ministers, to which numerous officials and technicians of his ministry were convened and which, as a rule, I also attended." That is Franz Scharping?
FRITZSCHE: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: "On such occasions Dr. Goebbels stated that there was no longer any objection to handing over crew members of crashed planes to the wrath of the people." As you know, there has been a great deal of evidence about that before this Tribunal. Did you in your propaganda speeches make any references to this subject?
FRITZSCHE: No, I never advocated in my propaganda speeches that the crews of aircraft which had been shot down should be killed. On the other hand, I know that Dr. Goebbels, for reasons of intimidation, ordered reports to be sent abroad already in the fall of 1944, reports to the effect that, to quote an example, an Anglo Saxon airplane which had machine-gunned church-goers in the street on a Sunday had been shot down and the members of the crew had been lynched by the people. Actually this report had no factual basis; it hardly could have been true, since it is quite improbable that an airplane is shot down at just such a moment. I know that Dr. Goebbels, through a circular letter addressed to the Gau Propaganda Offices, asked that details of such incidents, if they actually occurred, should be transmitted to him; but to my knowledge he did not receive any factual details of this sort. That was also the time in which he had an article on this subject written in Reich ; I cannot recall the title of this article at the moment. In any event, this campaign, having died down in January or February, flared up again in the days after the air attack on Dresden, and the following incident occurred. Dr. Goebbels announced in the "11 o'clock morning conference," which has been mentioned quite frequently in this courtroom, that in the Dresden attack 40,000 people had been killed. It was not known then that the actual figure was a considerably higher one. Dr. Goebbels added that in one way or another an end would now have to be put to this terror; and Hitler was firmly determined to have English, American, and Russian flyers shot in Dresden in numbers equal to the figure of Dresden inhabitants who had lost their lives in this air attack. Then he turned to me and asked me to prepare and announce this action. There followed an incident: I jumped up and refused to do this. Dr. Goebbels broke off the conference, asked me to come to his room, and there a very heated discussion developed between us.
FRITZSCHE: Finally I had persuaded him at least to the point where he promised me to use his influence with Hitler himself, so that this plan would not be carried through. I then spoke to Ambassador Ruble, the liaison man of the Foreign Office and asked him to enlist the aid of his minister to the same end. I also requested State Secretary Naumann to speak along the same lines with Bormann, whose predominant influence was well known. Following that, I had a discussion-under the existing regulations this was not really permitted-with the representative of the protecting power. In confidence, I gave him certain indications about the plan of which I had heard and asked him whether he could suggest or supply me with some argument or some means for countering this plan more intensively. He said he would attend to the matter with the utmost speed and he called me up on the following morning. We had a second discussion, and he told me that in the meantime a prospect for an exchange of prisoners had been held out to him-that is, an exchange of German and English prisoners-to comprise, I believe, 50,000 men. I asked him to have this matter go through the normal diplomatic channels, but to permit me to discuss this possibility of an exchange of prisoners of war with Dr. Goebbels, Naumann, and Bormann. I did so, and since just at that time the leaders were obviously especially interested in returning prisoners of war who could perhaps still be used at the front, this prospective offer. . .
THE PRESIDENT: How did you think that this possible exchange of prisoners was going to affect the question of whether 40,000 English and American, and Russian fliers would be killed as a reprisal?
FRITZSCHE: It appeared to me that at a time when we had the opportunity of effecting an exchange of prisoners of war, all thought of an action which was quite outside all human laws had to be repressed; that is, if there was talk about an exchange of prisoners of war, the idea of a gigantic shooting of prisoners had to be shunted into the background. I conclude briefly. This plan was discussed. I told Dr. Goebbels about it; and it was discussed in the evening with Hitler, according to concurring reports which I had from two different sources. By some strange accident the offer itself ran aground somewhere along the bureaucratic channels many days after the settlement of this exciting incident.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Can you hear now? I am asking you when you heard about Hitler's order, not with respect to these prisoners, but with respect to the fliers who had landed? When did you first hear of that? You said that in the fall Goebbels had sent abroad some propaganda with respect to that order. Did you know about it then?
FRITZSCHE: Yes. ,
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): In the autumn of 1944 you knew about that order?
FRITZSCHE: No.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): When did you?
FRITZSCHE: I cannot say exactly, but in the autumn of 1944 I did not know this order. I have to be extremely careful since I am under oath. I believe I heard of the order only here in. this courtroom, but that is somewhat confused in my memory with the campaign of Dr. Goebbels which I have just described. I cannot clearly . . .
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Surely in that meeting in February that order was discussed when they were discussing the killing of 40,000 prisoners, was it not?
FRITZSCHE: No, on that occasion not at all.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You had no doubt that Hitler wished to have those prisoners killed, did you?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, at the time when Dr. Goebbels related the plan, I believed that Hitler wished to carry through this action.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Then the answer is "yes." Now, you had no doubt that Goebbels wanted them killed, did you?
FRITZSCHE: The 40,000 in Dresden?
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Yes.
FRITZSCHE: In general, yes. 1~; TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Yes.
FRITZSCHE: Yes, I had no doubt that Goebbels also approved it.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And which other of the leaders wished them kited? It was apparently discussed a good deal; who else in the Government was in favor of this policy?
FRITZSCHE: I cannot say with certainty whether Bormann was in favor of it; he was the only other concerned. I do know, however, that Von Ribbentrop, through Ambassador Ruble, made an attempt to dissuade Hitler from this step. He opposed Hitler's plan.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Ribbentrop was working in this particular problem of killing the prisoners? I am not clear about that. Did Ribbentrop know about it?
FRITZSCHE: At that time I told Ambassador Ruble about this affair and asked him to inform Ribbentrop and to enlist his aid. A day or two later Ruble told me-we had frequent excited telephone conversations on this matter-that Ribbentrop was...
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): I do not need the details. The answer is that the Foreign Office knew, even if Ribbentrop may not have known personally. Is that right?
FRITZSCHE: Ribbentrop was informed personally.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): That is all I want to know.
FRITZSCHE: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Do you know what attitude Bormann took in this matter?
FRITZSCHE: According to the accounts that I heard, he at first supported Hitler's plan to shoot those 40,000; but afterwards, under the influence of Goebbels and Naumann, he took the opposite view and co-operated in dissuading Hitler from his intention.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Were they only consulted in the matter as far as the commanders of the Wehrmacht were concerned?
FRITZSCHE: I know nothing about that.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): It is suggested that I should also ask you this: Do you know what attitude Ribbentrop took on the shooting of these prisoners?
FRITZSCHE: Yes. After Ambassador Ruhle's report to him, he used his influence to prevent the execution of Hitler's plan; in what way, I do not know.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritz, do you wish to ask the defendant any question?
DR. FRITZ: No, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution wish to ask any questions arising out of the questions that the Tribunal has asked?
GEN. RUDENKO: No, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the defendant can return to the dock. DR. FRITZ Mr. President, this brings me to the end of the evidence in the case of the Defendant Fritzsche.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you offering in evidence all of the documents in your two document books, each one of them?
DR. FRITZ: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they marked with exhibit numbers?
DR. FRITZ: Yes, I submitted all the originals.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Have you not got two Exhibits 1; Exhibit 1 in one book and Exhibit 1 in the other book?
DR. FRITZ: No, there are no Fritzsche exhibits at all in my Document Book 1, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh! I see. Very well. Well, that concludes the case of Fritzsche?
DR. FRITZ: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, first of all I want to say that I can also dispense with the witness Dr. Klopfer, since he worked in close contact with Bormann only after 1942, since he cannot testify on most of the documents on which the Prosecution based its case, and since he only directed the constitutional law department in the Party Chancellery. Mr. President, I want to begin my case by making a very brief basic statement. The Defendant Bormann is absent; his associates, generally speaking, are not at my disposal either. For that reason, I can only attempt, on the basis of the documents presented by the Prosecution, to submit some little evidence to prove that the defendant did not play the large, legendary part which is now, after the collapse, attributed to him. As a lawyer it has always been much against my will to build something out of nothing; and I beg the High Tribunal to take this into consideration when weighing my evidence, which must, therefore, be extremely small in quantity. It is not negligence on my part that I present so little, but it is the inability to find anything positive from the available documents without the assistance of the defendant. First of all, then, I come to the question of whether the case against Bormann can be tried at all. I have offered evidence to show that it is most likely that the Defendant Bormann died on 1 May 1945, during an attempted escape from the Reich Chancellery. As my first witness who could testify on this, I named the witness Else Kruger, and my application for her was granted by the Tribunal. In my application of 26 June, I stated that I would waive the examining of this witness if the High Tribunal would permit me to submit instead an affidavit containing her testimony. I have not yet received an answer to this application; but I presume, since I heard from Dr. Kempner that the Prosecution will agree to this, that the High Tribunal also will not raise any objection.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought the application was withdrawn with reference to the witness Kruger,
DR. BERGOLD: I stated that I would dispense with the witness provided that I could submit her affidavit. There appears to be a misunderstanding. The Prosecution informed me that it has no objection.
MR. DODD: We have said we had no objection, Mr. President, to the use of the affidavit since he was waiving the calling of the witness.
DR. BERGOLD: I submit the affidavit as Document Number Bormann-12. Then, I named three other witnesses who could testify that Bormann had died. First, the witness Kempka, who for many years was Hitler's chauffeur and who was present when the attempted escape from the Reich Chancellery failed. This witness is not here. According to information which I have, he was interned at the camp at Freising in December 1945 in the hands of the American authorities; but unfortunately he has not yet been produced. I also named the witness Rattenhuber, who was also present when Bormann died and who, according to the information which I have, is said to be in the hands of the U.S.S.R. The woman witness, Christians, who had been granted me, could not be located. She was interned in the camp at Oberursel; from there she was given leave of which she took advantage to vanish. Apart from the affidavit of the witness Kruger, therefore, I have no proof for my statement that Bormann is dead. I regret very much indeed that I am not in a position to present clear evidence on this point and that the members of the Prosecution were not able to give me more support, for in this way the formation of legends will be considerably strengthened. Indeed, a sort of false Demetrius, false Martin Bormann, have already made their appearance and are sending me letters which are signed Martin Bormann but which cannot possibly have been written by him. I believe that a service would have been rendered to the German nation, to the Allies, and to the world generally if I had been in a position to furnish this proof for which I had asked. I come now to my documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal would like to hear this affidavit of Kruger read.
DR. BERGOLD: The text is as follows: "Fraulein Else Kruger, born 9 February 1915, at Hamburg-Altona; secretary, at present residing at Hamburg (39), Hansenweg 1...From approximately the end of 1942 was one of several secretaries of the Defendant Martin Bormann; there were, roughly, 30 to 40 secretaries. I can no longer give accurate figures and names. I occupied this position until the end and after Hitler's death. "On 1 May 1945 I saw and talked to Bormann in the bunker of the Reich Chancellery for the last time; but I was then no longer working for him, since at that time he was writing his own orders and wireless messages by hand. All I had to do in those days in the bunker of the Reich Chancellery was to prepare myself mentally for my death. The last words he spoke to me, when he met me accidentally in the bunker, were, 'Well, then, farewell. There is not much sense in it now, but I will try to get through. Very probably I shall not succeed.' These approximately, were his last words, I can no longer recollect them literally. "Later in the course of the evening when I thought that the Russians had come very close to the shelter of the Reich Chancellery I, together with a group of about 20 people, mostly soldiers, fled from the shelter through subterranean passages, then through an exit in one of the walls of the Chancellery, across the Wilhelmsplatz into the entrance of the underground station Kaiserhof. From there we fled through more subterranean passages to the Friedrichstrasse, and then through a number of streets, debris of houses, and so on; I can no longer remember the exact details on account of the confusion and excitement of those days. Eventually, in the course of the following morning, we reached another shelter; I no longer recollect where it was; it might have been the shelter at Humboldthain."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, does not the affidavit deal with the Defendant Bormann at all?
DR. BERGOLD: Oh yes, I am now coming to that: "After some time the SS-Gruppenfuehrer Rattenhuber appeared there quite suddenly. He had been severely wounded in the leg and was put on a camp bed. Other people asked him where he had come from; and he said, in my presence, that he, together with Bormann and others, had fled by car through the Friedrichstrasse. Presumably everybody was dead; there had been masses of bodies. I gathered from his statement that he believed Bormann was dead. This also appeared probable to me because, according to reports I heard from some soldiers whom I did not know, all people who had left the shelter after us had been taken under strong Russian fire and hundreds of dead were said to have been left behind on the Weidendammer Bridge." I omit one unimportant sentence. "I remember reading afterwards in a British paper that Hitler's driver for many years, Kempka, made a statement somewhere that Bormann, with whom apparently he fled, was dead." That is all I am able to submit, Mr. President; the real witnesses have unfortunately not been found. I now come to the documents. In order to shorten my evidence, may I refer to the document book which I have submitted. All these documents contain orders of Bormann which were collected and have appeared in a body of laws called Orders of the Deputy of the Fuehrer. I request that the Tribunal take judicial notice of these official orders. I shall bring up the legal argument arising from these documents in my final speech. I merely want to refer now briefly to Order Number 23/36; it is the order under the figure 8.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean PS?
DR. BERGOLD: No, it is order Number 8 in my document book, Mr. President. I particularly want to draw the Tribunal's attention to it without quoting from it. I now turn to the document book submitted by the Prosecution, and I should like to read a short passage from 098-PS, on Page 4, the second paragraph at the top.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 098-PS?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Document 098-PS, Bormann's letter dated 22 February 1940 and addressed to Reichsleiter Alfred Rosenberg.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 4?