dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: All right, that is all I wanted to establish, that you were in fact responsible for it and continued to be responsible for it right up to the end of the war. I understood you to say a minute ago that the Reich Youth Leader was the man responsible rather than yourself?
VON SCHIRACH: No. I said that I could give you only general but no special information, because the practical application of the war commitment was a matter for Axmann; I do not, however, want to minimize my own responsibility in any way.
MR. DODD: Very well. I think we are sufficiently clear about the fact that you were certainly named to the position no matter how you now wish to "water" your responsibility. What do you say is the date when you first became responsible for the war commitment of youth?
VON SCHIRACH: As far as I remember, I was responsible for it beginning 1939, at the outbreak of war, but I now see that this decree was not signed until 1942.
MR. DODD: All right; we will agree then that from that date, March 1942, you were responsible. Now, I want to ask you to look at another document.
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, may I explain something in this connection? I do not know whether Hitler signed this decree in March 1942; I do not know when it was signed. In this document Axmann tells me: the draft of the decree is now going to the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, who will request the official approval of the higher Reich authorities concerned, and then Bormann...
MR. DODD: You do not need to read it, really. What do you want to say now? Are you saying that maybe it was not signed, or maybe you were not appointed, or are you going to say that you were appointed? Will you please give us an answer?
VON SCHIRACH: Not at all. But I really cannot say that the date of the publication of this decree was March 1942. It may not have been published until May.
MR. DODD: I am not attaching any great importance to the date. I want you to look at 345-PS, which we offer as USA-869. This may help you on this Heuaktion program; that is, with respect to your memory. Now, this is a telegram that the Defendant Rosenberg sent to Dr. Lammers at the Reich Chancellery for the Fuehrer's headquarters on 20 July 1944. You will observe that in the first paragraph there is stated: "In accordance with an agreement between the Reich Marshal as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, the Reichsfuehrer SS, the Youth Fuehrer of the German Reich, and the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, the recruiting of young Russians, Ukrainians, White Ruthenians, Lithuanians, and Tartars, between 15 and 20 years of age, 'will take place on a volunteer basis for Kriegseinsatz in the Reich"'-"Kriegseinsatz" being a program that you were responsible for clearly at that time. Now, moving down, I want to call your attention to Paragraph 3, and I want to remind you of the Heuaktion document that is already in evidence. This telegram says: "On the basis of a suggestion by military offices, the seizing and turning over of youths between the ages of 10 to 14 to the Reich territories will take place (Heuaktion) in a part of the operational territory, since the youths in the operational territory present a not insignificant burden." It goes on to say: "The aim of the action is a further disposal of the youths by placing them in the Reich Youth Movement, and the training of apprentices for German economic in a form similar to that which has been effected in agreement with the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor with White Russian Youths, which already shows results.') I particularly call your attention to that last phrase, "which already shows results." Then the last clause in the next sentence, which says, ". . .
MR. DODD: these youths are to be used later in the Occupied Eastern Territories as especially reliable construction forces." You will observe that the last paragraph says that "the actions under Points 1 and 3"-which I have lust been reading-"are known to the Fuehrer." And there is something about SS help in regard to this action. You had set a time limit on that. The next page of the document has the distribution, to the Reich Marshal, the Reichsfuehrer SS, the Reich Youth Fuehrer, and the Reich Minister of Interior, and down at the bottom, a Gauleiter bureau, among others. What do you know about this seizing of young people between 10 and 14 and the turning over of them to your youth organization in Germany during these war years, and about how many thousands of them were so kidnaped, if you know?
VON SCHIRACH: I have already said that I do not wish to minimize my responsibility in this connection. But it was not until later that I was informed of this matter. Not I, but somebody else was Youth Leader of the German Reich in that year; and he made the agreement with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force and the Reichsfuehrer SS. But my own measures were. . .
MR. DODD: Later you were the Youth Reichsleiter of Germany, were you not? And you were also the war commitment officer of Youth in Germany at this very time?
VON SCHIRACH: I was at Vienna, and the date was 20 July 1944. You will remember that the history-making events of that time were occupying all officials in Germany to a very great extent. Later I heard about this matter from Axmann, and I know that the accommodation, training, feeding, and the whole treatment of these Russian youths was actually excellent.
MR. DODD: You also know that even at this hour the Allied forces are trying to find thousands of these young people to return them to their proper place? Do you know that this morning's press carried an account of 10,000 people that are still unlocated?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that those are these young people who were accommodated in apprentice hostels and who under exceptionally well-ordered conditions received very good professional training.
MR. DODD: You see, it is perfectly clear from this Document 345-PS that this program was in fact in operation. The letter from Rosenberg says so. He says it had "already shown results." And so your youth organization must have had something to do with it before this message was sent.
VON SCHIRACH: I have not at all denied that. Youth leaders were active within the framework of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories. And on the basis of what I have heard here during the Trial, I can perfectly well understand that the generals in the East said that the young people must be taken out of the combat zone. The point was that these youngsters from 10 to 14 years of age had to be taken away from the front.
MR. DODD: With the help of the SS? Now, I want to show you another document, 1137-PS, which will give you some idea, if you do not recall, of what was done with these young people, and how many of them are involved. That will become USA-870.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, there is a paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 of that document which relates to another defendant.
MR. DODD: Yes, Your Honor, I am sorry; I overlooked that. I will read it for the benefit of the record, if I may, at this time. Mr. Witness, I direct your attention back, if I may, to this Document 345-PS, so that you will be aware of what I am reading. You will observe that in the last paragraph of Rosenberg's communication to Dr. Lammers we find this sentence: "I have learned that Gauleiter Sauckel will be at the Fuehrer's headquarters on 21 July 1944. I ask that this be taken up with him there and then a report made to the Fuehrer." Sauckel was participating in this kidnaping of 10- to 14-year-olds as well, was he? Do you know about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it. I cannot give any information on that subject.
MR. DODD: Now, this Document 1137-PS begins with a letter from a general, a message rather, an interoffice memorandum, dated 27 October 1944, and it closes with a report by the brigadier general of the Hitler Youth, a man named Nickel. Do you know Nickel, by the way? N-i-c-k-e-l?
VON SCHIRACH: The name is known to me, and probably I know the man personally; but at the moment I do not recall more than just the name. At any rate, he was not a brigadier general; he was a Hauptbannfuehrer.
MR. DODD: Well, all right. Whatever he was, he was an official of the youth organization. That is all I am trying to establish. I may have his title wrong. We have it brigadier general. But in any event, if you look over this document, you will see that he is reporting about the seizing of these youths in the Occupied Eastern Territory. This is October 1944. And he begins by saying that on 5 March he "received an order to open an office for the recruitment of youths from 15 to 20 years of age from the Occupied Eastern Territories for war employment in the Reich." Then he goes on to cite figures, and he tells where he began his work: Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, the middle sector of the Eastern front, the southern sector of the Eastern front. And then on the next page of the English-and I imagine it is also on your next page- it tells how they were classified, those that were brought back: "1,383 Russian SS Auxiliaries, 5,953 Ukrainian SS Auxiliaries, 2,354 White Ruthenian SS Auxiliaries, 1,012 Lithuanian SS Auxiliaries." Then he gets into the Air Force: "3,000 Estonian Air Force Auxiliaries," and so on. Some went to the Navy. I am not going to read all of it; but it gives you an idea of what distribution was made of these men, or young boys and girls rather than men. You will notice that a considerable number went to the SS.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but Hauptbannfuehrer Nickel's letter bears a stamp with the words "Reich Minister for Occupied Eastern Territories." That means he was not acting on behalf of the Reich Youth Leader's department but on behalf of the Reich Ministry for the East.
MR. DODD: Yes. I also want to ask you if you will look at Page 6. I think it is Page 5 of the original of your German. You will find what personnel Hauptbannfuehrer Nickel had for the purpose of carrying out his task. He had members of the Hitler Youth, so he says: 5 leaders, 3 BDM leaders, 71 German youth leaders as translators and assistant instructors, 26 SS leaders, 234 noncommissioned officers and troops, drivers, and translators of the SS. And of the Air Force personnel, he had 37 officers, 221 noncoms, and so on. Does that help your memory any with this program that your youth people were engaging in? Do you recall any more of it now?
VON SCHIRACH: It does not help my memory at all, because I hear this for the first time from this document. I was not informed of the activities of the Eastern Ministry in Russia, and I do not know what assignment the Eastern Ministry gave to Hitler Youth Leader Nickel. I assume responsibility for what was done on my orders, but anything done on the orders of others must be their responsibility.
MR. DODD: Let me show you something with respect to your answer that you have just made. That personnel that I read out, you know, was only in one part of the program. And on the last page of the document you will see on how wide an area Nickel was operating. He was operating in co-operation with the Netherlands Hitler Youth Operational Command, the Adria Hitler Youth Operational Command, the Southern Hitler Youth Operational Command in Slovakia and Hungary, the Lieutenant Nagel Special Command in refugee camps within the Reich, and then, interestingly enough, the field offices in Vienna. That is where you were located at the time, is it not? And you are telling the Tribunal you did not know anything about this program and the participation of your Hitler Youth Leaders?
VON SCHIRACH: I received no written or verbal report from Nickel. His report, as can be seen from the letter, went to the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and to what extent the Reich Youth Leader was being informed is not known to me. I myself do not know what took place. What I do know of the entire affair I very clearly stated in my testimony with reference to the Junkers works and the professional training which these youngsters were given in Germany. Apart from that I have no further knowledge.
MR. DODD: Observe also, if you will, Mr. Witness, that your Hitler Youth Operational Command was in Poland and even in northern Italy. And now I ask you once again, as the long-time Hitler Youth Leader, as the leader for the War Commitment of Youth, then Gauleiter in Vienna, with part of this program being carried on in Vienna and the whole program being carried on on this' vest scale, do you want the Tribunal to believe that you knew nothing about it?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it, but I assume responsibility for it.
MR. DODD: You told the Tribunal in your direct examination that you wrote the letter to Streicher's Sturmer. I would like to submit this in evidence, Mr. President, so that the Tribunal will have an idea of what it appeared like on the front page of Der Sturmer . Perhaps-if you would like to look at it, you may, of course, Mr. Witness. It is USA-871. I just wanted you to have a look at it before it was submitted. You know about it anyway.
VON SCHIRACH: I already made a statement about that the other day.
MR. DODD: Yes, I did not wish to go into it further. What I do want to ask you, Mr. Witness, is: Do I understand you clearly when I say that from your testimony we gathered that it was Hitler who ordered the evacuation of the Jews from Vienna and that you really did not suggest it or wish to see it carried out? Is that a fair understanding of your testimony of a day or two ago?
VON SCHIRACH: I stated the other day, and I repeat this, that the idea of evacuating the Jews from Vienna was Hitler's idea which he communicated to me in 1940 at his headquarters. Furthermore, and I want to make this quite clear, I stated that after the events of those November days in 1938 I was actually of the opinion that it would be better for the Jewish population to be accommodated in a closed settlement than to be regularly singled out by Goebbels as a target for his propaganda and his organized actions. I also said that I identified myself with that action suggested by Hitler, but did not carry it out.
MR. DODD: Now you had a meeting at the Fuehrer's headquarters in October 1940. Present was the Defendant Frank and the now notorious Koch whom we have heard so much about. Do you remember that meeting?
VON SCHIRACH: I no longer recall it. exactly.
MR. DODD: Now, you mean you do not recall that meeting at all''
VON SCHIRACH: In October 1940 I was in the Reich Chancellery because that was the time when I was organizing the evacuation of youth. It is possible that at lunch...
THE PRESIDENT: You were asked whether you recalled a particular meeting in October 1940 with certain particular people. Do you remember it or do you not?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it. If I am shown a document, then I can confirm it.
MR. DODD: Very well; that is what I wanted to know. I will now show you the document USSR-172. A part of this document was read over the system for the Tribunal bar Colonel Pokrovsky. Now you will observe that on 2 October-this is a memorandum, by the way, made up of the meeting. Herr Martin Bormann compiled these notes, so I assume he was there too. After a dinner at the Fuehrer's apartment there developed a conversation on the nature of the Government General: "The treatment of the Poles and the incorporation already approved by the Fuehrer for the districts Petrikau and Tomassov." Then it says: "The conversation began when Reich Minister Dr. Frank informed the Fuehrer that the activities in the Government General could be termed very successful. The Jews in Warsaw and other cities were now locked up in the ghettos and Krakow would very shortly be cleared of them. Reichsleiter Von Schirach, who had taken his seat at the Fuehrer's other side, remarked that he still had more than 50,000 Jews in Vienna whom Dr. Frank would have to take over. Party Member Dr. Frank said this was impossible. Gauleiter Koch then pointed out that he, too, had up to now not transferred either Poles or Jews from the District of Ziechenau, but that these Jews and Poles would now, of course, have to be accepted by the Government General." And it goes on to say that Dr. Frank protested against this also. He said there were not housing facilities-I am not quoting directly, I do not want to read all of it-and that there were not sufficient other facilities. Do you remember that conference now?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have refreshed my memory now.
MR. DODD: Yes. And you suggested that you wanted to get 50,000 Jews moved into Frank's territory out of Vienna, didn't you?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The Fuehrer asked me how many Jews were still in Vienna, and at that time-I mentioned this during my own testimony the other day and it is contained in the files-there were still 60,000 Jews in Vienna. During that conversation, in which the question of settling Jews in the Government General was discussed, I also said that these 60,000 Jews from Vienna were still to be transferred to the Government General. I told you earlier that as a result of the events of November 1938 I was in favor of the Fuehrer's plan to take the Jews to a closed settlement.
MR. DODD: Well now, later on, as you know from USA-681 concerning which your own counsel inquired, Lammers sent you a message in Vienna and he said the Fuehrer had decided, after receipt of one of the reports made by you, that the 60,000 Jews in Vienna would be deported most rapidly, and that was just 2 months after this conference that you had with Frank and Koch and Hitler, wasn't it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, since 1937-and I think that becomes clear from the Hossbach minutes-the Fuehrer had the idea of expatriating the Jewish population. This plan, however, did not become known to me until August 1940 when I took over the Vienna district. I reported to Hitler on that occasion, and he asked me how many Jews there were in Vienna. I answered his question, and he told me that he actually wanted all of them to be settled in the Government General.
MR. DODD: How many Jews did you, in fact, deport out of your district while you were the Gauleiter?
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the practical measures of that action were not in my hands. I do not know how many of these 60,000 Jews were actually transported out of Vienna.
MR. DODD: Do you have any idea where they went to?
VON SCHIRACH: I was informed that the aged were being taken to Theresienstadt and the others to Poland, to the Government General. On one occasion-it was either when I took my oath of office as Governor or when I made a speech about the evacuation of children-I even asked Hitler how these Jews were being employed, and he told me: in accordance with their professions.
MR. DODD: We will get around to that. You remember, don't you, that they were sent, at least some of them were sent, to the cities of Riga and Minsk, and you were so notified. Do you remember receiving that information?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Now take a look at Document 3921-PS, which becomes USA-872. Now this is a communication concerning the evacuation of Jews, and it shows that 50,000 Jews were to be sent to the Minsk-Riga area, and you got a copy of this report as the Commissar for the Defense of the Reich, and if you will look on the last page you will see an initial there of your chief assistant, the SS man Dellbrugge, and also the stamp of your own office as having received it.
VON SCHIRACH: I can only see that Dr. Dellbrugge marked the matter for filing. It shows the letters "z.d.A." to the files.
MR. DODD: And he did not tell you about this report concerning the Jews? Even though you had been talking to Hitler about it? That they were being moved out of your area? I suppose your chief assistant did not bother to tell you anything about it. Is that what you want us to understand?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now then, take a look at another document which will shed some light on this one. It is USA-808, already in evidence. It tells you what happened to the Jews in Minsk and Riga, and this was also received in your office if you recall. Maybe it is not necessary to show it to you again. You remember the document- that is one of those monthly reports from Heydrich wherein he said that there were 29,000 Jews in Riga and they had been reduced to 2,500, and that 33,210 were shot by the special unit, and "Einsatz" group. Do you remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: During the last 2 days I looked at these monthly reports most carefully. The bottom right-hand corner of the cover of these monthly reports-and I want to make this categorically clear-bears initials something like "Dr. FSCH.," that is Dr. Fischer's initials. At the top the reports are not initialed by me, but by the Government President, with the notation that they should be put into the files. If I had read them...
MR. DODD: I am not suggesting that you had your initials on any document like this, but I am claiming that these documents came into your organization and into the hands of your principal assistant.
VON SCHIRACH: But I must point out that if they had been submitted to me, then there would have been on them the notation, "submitted to the Reichsleiter," and the official submitting them would have initialed this notation. If I myself had seen them, then my own initials would be on them with the letters "K.g.," noted.
MR. DODD: Yes. I want to remind you that the date of that report is February 1942, and I also want to remind you that in there as well Heydrich tells you how many Jews they had killed in Minsk. Now you made a speech one time in Poland about the Polish or the Eastern policy of Germany. Do you remember it, Mr. Witness? , VON SCHIRACH In Poland?
MR. DODD: In Poland, yes. · VON SCHIRACH: In 1939 I spent a short time in Poland, but i do not think I was there again later.
MR. DODD: Your memory seems particularly poor this morning. Don't you remember speaking in Katowice on 20 January 1942?
VON SCHIRACH: That is Upper Silesia.
MR. DODD: Upper Silesia, all right. Do you remember that speech?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I made a speech at Katowice.
MR. DODD: And did you talk about Hitler's policy for the Eastern Territories?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot say from memory what I spoke about there. I have made many speeches.
MR. DODD: Well, I will ask that you be shown D-664, which becomes USA-873. You were speaking to a group of Party leaders and German youth leaders.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: In Paragraph 7, you dealt with the tasks of German youth in the East. The Hitler Youth had carried out political schooling along the line of the Fuehrer's Eastern policy and you went on to say how grateful you were to the Fuehrer for having turned the German people toward the East, because the East was the destiny of your people. What did you understand to be the Fuehrer's Eastern policy, or did you have a good understanding of it at that time?
VON SCHIRACH: I said this in Upper Silesia out of gratitude for the return of that territory to us.
MR. DODD: Well, I didn't ask you that, really. I asked you if you then understood the Fuehrer's policy when you made that speech?
VON SCHIRACH: On the basis of our victory over Poland and the recovery of German soil, I naturally affirmed Germany's policy.
MR. DODD: You not only affirmed it, but I want to know if you really understood it.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not quite know how I should answer that question. Probably Hitler's conception of the term Eastern policy was quite different from mine.