dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
HERR PELCKMANN: To sum up your testimony, could one say that the title, Higher SS and Police Leader, is misleading?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Concerning the testimony of the witness on the position of the Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied territories with regard to Germany, I refer to an affidavit, Num-ber SS-87. [Turning to the witness.] In your capacity as Higher SS and Police Leader, did you ever receive information from the Reichsfuehrer SS on the treatment of enemy fliers when they had to make emergency landings?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: For what purpose did you receive this information and how did you apply it?
VON EBERSTEIN: This announcement said it was not the task of the Police to interfere in d1tereations-I believe that was the expression-between the German population and enemy fliers who had bailed out. Nothing was said about any kind of treatment in this announcement. This announcement was signed by Himmler; and the Higher SS and Police Leaders were ordered by Himmler to inform the commanders of the Order Police and the inspectors of the Security Police thoroughly of the contents of this an-nouncement.
HERR PELCKALANN: Were corresponding announcements sent previously or subsequently to Party offices by the Fuehrer's Party Chancellery, Reichsleiter Bormann?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, to a great extent.  There were an-nouncements in the V61kischer Beobachter, in the paper Das Reich, and besides that, the Gauleiter of my district commented on them. Moreover, the commander of the Order Police and the inspector of the Security Police received this order from their superiors as well; I should like to remark that this was so throughout the entire Reich. A similar order was also issued by the main office of the Order Police, giving the same information to the Police offices, as well as by the Reich Security Main Office.
HERR PELCKMANN: On the basis of these decrees, did the at-titude of the Police in your district change in any way in cases of landings by enemy fliers?
VON EBERSTEIN: In no way. It was a fundamental principle for us to adhere to the provisions of the Geneva Convention or the Hague Rules on Land Warfare; I do not know which of the two agreements applies here, but in any case it meant that pris-oners should receive proper treatment.
HERR PELCKMANN: In spite of this, did the lynching of fliers occur in the district under you?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. Lynchings did not occur, but, unfor-tunately, there were some shootings of fliers. It so happened with us that the fliers were taken out of the Police stations and then shot. As I have now learned from the press, trials have- been held on this account and the murders atoned for. I have been under arrest now for 15 months and get my information only from the papers. The reports of the trials indicate that the Police treated the fliers decently in every respect, bandaged their wounds, and turned them over to the Air Force, as was prescribed.
HERR PELCKMANN: Was it improper or a violation of the Hague Rules on Land Warfare if the fliers were arrested by the Police and not by the Armed Forces?
VON EBERSTEIN: I can give no judgment on these regulations of international law, as I said before.
THE PRESIDENT: He is not a witness on law. This is a matter for us to judge.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, was there a general order in existence since the beginning of the war that fliers who had made emergency landings had to be taken to a place of safety by the Police?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. The regulations read as follows: Fliers who bail out should be arrested by the Police. Besides that, accord-ing to German law, any other citizen was able to do this. Then they were to be taken to the Police. The Police stations had orders to inform the nearest Air Force office that the Police held enemy pilots and that the Air Force was to come for them. There was a binding rule that these captured fliers were to be turned over to our Air Force.
HERR PELCKMANN: What did you, as Higher SS and Police Leader have to do with the Gestapo and the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: Nothing. According to existing regulations, the inspector of the Security Service informed the Higher SS and Police Leader of what happened in the sphere of the Gestapo or Security Service. These two agencies, the Security Service and the Gestapo, received their orders directly from the offices concerned, Amt III or Amt IV of the Reich Security Main Office.
HERR PELCKALANN: And so you had no power to issue orders to the inspectorates of the Security Police and the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: I believe you made a mistake by saying, "inspectorates." I could not have any power of command over inspectorates.
HERR PELCKMANN: You had no power to issue orders to the, Security Police and the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: What did you, as leader of the Oberab-schnitt of the General SS, have to do with the Gestapo or the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: As Oberabschnitt leader I did not have anything to do with them.
HERR PELCKMANN: Was it so throughout the Reich that the leaders of the General SS had no power to issue orders to the Gestapo and the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. The General SS had no executive powers, and besides that it was not allowed to become active as an intelligence service, that is, in the sphere of the Security Service. HERR PELCKMIA~NN: Did your corps area (Oberabschnitt), or did the divisional areas (Abschnitte), regiments (Standarten), and companies (Stuerme) of the General SS have any official connection with the Gestapo or the SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: As Higher SS and Police Leader, or as Oberabschnittsfuehrer of the General SS, what did you have to do with concentration camps up to September 1944?
VON EBERSTEIN: Nothing.
HERR PELCKMANN: Is it true for all the Reich that the Police Presidents, the Higher SS and Police Leaders, and the leaders of the General SS had nothing to do with concentration camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: What offices were responsible, first for delivery to and release from concentration camps, and secondly for the administration of the concentration camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: For commitment to and release from a con-centration camp, Amt IV of the Reich Security Main Office was competent. For the administration and the internal affairs of the concentration camps, the Economic and Administrative Main Office of the SS was responsible, and of course Amtsgruppe D, In-spectorate of Concentration Camps.
HERR PELCKMANN: Therefore, can one conclude from your answer that for killings and atrocities committed against, prisoners in concentration camps, neither the Police President of the district in question nor the Higher SS and Police Leader of this district, nor the leader of the Oberabschnitt of the General SS was responsible?
VON EBERSTEIN: None of the offices mentioned was respon-sible for such things. The concentration camp system was a strictly independent apparatus, with its own chain of command.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you know the concentration camp at Dachau from your own experience?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. In the course of the years from 1936 on, when I was transferred to Munich, I often received orders from Himmler that I was to take high German and foreign officials to Dachau to show them the concentration camp. Among others, I took the Royal Yugoslav Minister of the Interior there, once some high American police officials, a number of commanders of pris-oner-of-war camps, high political personages from Italy, and so forth.
HERR PELCKMANN: Then since you say you had nothing else to do with the concentration camps, that was your only oppor-tunity to obtain permission to enter them? And if I have under-stood you correctly, you received permission through the Reich Security Main Office just like the guests who were inspecting the camp?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes; that is, I received orders to go there, and the guests received permission. It was done in the following way: Either Himmler's staff or the RSHA informed the competent camp commanders through the inspectorates of the concentration camps, that guests were coming with me as their guide.
THE PRESIDENT: We do not think you need go into the details of the exact way in which the orders went. We do not want the details.
HERR PELCKMANN: Aside from the Rascher case, which I shall discuss in a minute, did you ever have any official reason to visit the camp at Dachau?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you, perhaps for other reasons, neces-sarily have the desire to obtain accurate information about con-ditions in the camp, perhaps because you had heard that mass killings were carried-out there and that the people were starving to death?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, because from what I saw when I visited the camp everything was in order. The kitchen installation was shown, the hospitals, the dental station, the operating rooms, showers, barracks; and there was also an opportunity here to see numerous prisoners who, in my judgment, in peacetime-that is, before 1939-were in an outstandingly good state of health. After 1939-that is, during the war-they gave the impression of being normally fed. There were also thousands of prisoners, in Munich, for example, who were employed in the removal of bomb debris in public squares and streets and everyone could see the prisoners. From my point of view, on the basis of the knowledge I gained during my visits to the camp, I had no reason to inspect them; and I had no right to do so, either.
HERR PELCIQVIANN: On these visits could you, because of your position, see more or less than the visitors whom you accompanied?
VON EBERSTEIN: I cannot judge. The tours led through the whole camp. For example, in the fall of 1944, the commanders of prisoner-of-war camps were shown through. They were all experts who were quite familiar with camps and went around wherever they liked in order to inspect everything.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you ever hear anything about bio-logical experiments on living persons in the concentration camp at Dachau, and if so, when?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. In the spring of 1944, in the course of Criminal Police investigations against an SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Rascher, a physician, and his wife. The Raschers were accused of Kindesunterschiebung. That is a word which is very difficult to translate. In our law it means the illegal appropriation of other people's children. Secondly, Rascher was accused of financial irregularities in con-nection with the research station at Dachau, where these biological experiments were carried on. This research station was directly subordinate to Himmler, without any intermediate authority.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you know anything of those experi-ments beforehand?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. It was only by accident that I found out about them.
HERR PELCKMANN: Please describe your investigation so that the Court may see that you did not close your eyes to such things.
VON EBERSTEIN: By reason of the events which had already been reported to the Criminal Police in Munich, I forced an entry, into the camp at Dachau. I call your attention to the fact that it was already 1944, and communications were so bad that I could not wait long for approval. In a teletype message to the inspectorate I stated that anticipating its approval I would go with the officials to Dachau to make police investigations. I still had no idea of the biological experiments, but knew only of the two offenses mentioned first'. And when in a talk with the camp commander I merely men-tioned the name of Rascher, he, as well as the camp doctor, who had been summoned there, said that they considered Rascher a dangerous, incredible person who was carrying on the most abomi-nable experiments on living human beings. He, Rascher, was vested with full powers from Himmler; and the camp commander and his personnel were so intimidated that up to the time w hen I inter-vened, they did not dare oppose Rascher's activity in any way. They felt that I would afford them, the protection of a high SS leader and so we came to discuss the experiments. Naturally, I did not release Rascher, who had been previously arrested by the Crim-inal Police, for fear of hushing up things and I immediately made a personal report to Himmler in his field headquarters at Eigen near Salzburg; and, indeed, I did this-without being asked and on my own decision. Before that Himmler had already reproached me bitterly by telephone for interfering at all. He accused me 6f attempting to stage a sensational trial. I made the situation clear to Himmler, upon which he was very reserved toward me and said I did not understand anything about these things. He said that Herr Rascher deserved great merit for his research work. He promised he would keep the documents which I had brought and submit the Rascher case to the Supreme SS and Police Court for punishment.
VON EBERSTEIN: The Supreme SS and Police Court was competent because Himmler was Rascher's superior in this research office and Rascher was imme-diately subordinate to him. Unfortunately, he was not subject to the jurisdiction of my court.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were any proceedings brought against Rascher?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: What became of Rascher?
VON EBERSTEIN: Rascher remained under arrest as before. I kept complaining without interruption for weeks and months to Himmler's office and to the Supreme SS and Police Court. I learned later from the latter office that Himmler had not turned over the files to them at all.
HERR PELCKMANTN: Did you learn later that Rascher was in a concentration camp?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. Rascher remained under arrest in the detention house of the SS barracks, Munich-Freimann, to all appear-ances until the barracks-at least the detention house was evacuated because of the approach of the American troops-. He was then sent to Dachau and I learned from the press that he must have been shot during the last few days. I cannot give any further information about this, since I was relieved of my post on 20 April 1945.
THE PRESIDENT: Before we adjourn, perhaps you can tell us how long you are going to be with this witness.
HERR PELCKMANN: I assume 45 minutes, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [The Tribunal adjourned until 5 August 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Pelckmann.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, on Saturday you said that the accused witness Rascher had finally been in a concentration camp. Did you approve of this settlement of the affair?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. I was of the opinion that these criminal deeds should be punished by court proceedings.
HERR PELCKMANN: If you did not approve of this settlement without a formal trial, what were you able to do about it and what conclusions could you have drawn?
VON EBERSTEIN: I repeat that I never ceased applying to Himmler's office and I made inquiries of the Supreme SS and Police Court. I may point out that the binding regulations of the Kriegsstrafverfahrensordnung (the war penal code) provided that Himmler alone was competent. All I could have done was to make a complaint about Himmler to Hitler, but in view of the existing situation, this was a practical impossibility. Neither an oral nor a written complaint or report from me would ever have reached Hitler. I may explain that, despite my high position in the State and the Party and the 9 years of my official activity in Munich, I was admitted to see Hitler only once, for about 10 minutes, when he wanted a report from me on the traffic measures on the occasion of a big demonstration. That was the only time. The only other thing I could have done was to resign. Due to the existing regulations, this would doubtlessly not have been accepted. There was a last alternative either to commit dishonorable suicide or to refuse obedience as a soldier, for I was a general of the Waffen-SS and was bound by my oath of allegiance to the flag. Then I would have been court-martialed and sent to a concentration camp even at that time already.
HERR PELCKMANN: You just said that you were a general of the Waffen-SS. So far you have told the Tribunal only that you were a member of the General SS. When and for what reason did you become a general of the Waffen-SS, although up to then you had had nothing whatever to do with the Waffen-SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: In the fall of 1944 Himmler became com-mander-in-chief of the reserve army. When he took over this office, the Prisoners of War Organization also came under his jurisdiction. In the fall of 1944 Himmler transferred to the Higher SS and Police Leaders the responsibility for safeguarding prisoner-of-war camps against mass escapes and against attempts from the outside to liberate prisoners. For this purpose, the Higher SS and Police Leaders were made senior commanders of the prisoners of war in their defense areas. According to international regulations regarding prisoners of war, police could not be used to guard prisoners of war, so the Higher SS and Police Leaders were taken over into the Waffen-SS and appointed generals of the Waffen-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: If you could go a little bit faster, if you could speak a little bit faster, I think it would be convenient to, the Tribunal.
HERR PELCKMANN: The Prosecution construes the fact that Himmler, in September of 1944, as commander-in-chief of the reserve army, became Chief of the Prisoners of War Organization to mean that the SS was now in charge of prisoners of war. Is that true? '
VON EBERSTEIN: That is not true. Apart from the senior commander of prisoners of war, no other member of the SS had anything to do with prisoners of war.
HERR PELCKMANN: The Prosecution further asserts that through the transfer of these prisoners-of-war tasks to Himmler or to the senior commander of prisoners of war in the fall of 1944, the inhuman treatment and destruction of Allied prisoners of war was systematically promoted by the SS. Is that true?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, because the camp commanders of the Armed Forces continued to be responsible for the running and administration of the camps from the inside. The task assigned to us was security, which began only outside the camp. Moreover, during the visits which I paid to the individual camps during the 6 months of my competency, I always asked the prisoners-of-war spokesmen personally whether they had any complaints. Not a single complaint of this kind was made to me by these men.
HERR PELCKMANX: As senior commander of prisoners of war from the fall of 1944 on, did you have anything to do with the employment of prisoner-of-war labor?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. The employment of prisoner-of-war labor was regulated by an Armed Forces staff for the employment of labor in co-operation with the regional labor offices or with the parties needing labor. The senior commander of prisoners of war did not deal with this subject.
HERR PELCKMANN: From the fall of 1944 on, was there any change in your jurisdiction over concentration camps or your lack of jurisdiction over them, as you described it on Saturday?
VON EBERSTEIN: In the fall of 1944, as in the case of prisoner--of-war camps, the Higher SS and Police Leader was made respon-sible for safeguarding concentration camps from the outside, for the reasons just mentioned, with a view to maintaining the security of the State.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did the RSHA remain responsible for the delivery of prisoners to the camps and did Amtsgruppe D of the Economic and Administrative Main Office remain responsible for the administration of camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, Amt IV of the RSHA for internment and release; and for the internal administration of the camp, the inspection of concentration camps, Amtsgruppe D of the Economic and Administrative Main Office.
I HERR PELCKMANN: Can you give an example from the last phase of the war of how difficult it was for you, because of your limited powers, to prevent the death of thousands of concentration camp inmates?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. At the beginning of March 1945 the Gauleiter and Reich Defense Commissioner Giesler in Munich ordered me to come to him, and made the monstrous request that I should use my influence with the commander of Dachau that at the approach of the American troops the prisoners-there were 25,000 people there at the time-were to be shot. I refused this demand with indignation, and I pointed out that I could not give any orders to the commander, whereupon Giesler said to me that he, as Reich Defense Commissioner, would see to it that the camp would be bombed to bits by our own forces. I told him that I con-sidered it impossible that any German Air Force commander would be willing to do this. Then Giesler said he would see to it that something would be put into the soup- of the prisoners. That is, he threatened to poison them. As danger seemed imminent, I sent a teletype inquiry to the Inspector of Concentration Camps and asked on my own initiative for a speedy decision by Himmler as to what was to be done with the prisoners in case the American troops approached. Shortly afterward the news came that the camps were to be surrendered as a whole to the enemy. I showed that to Giesler. He was very indignant because I had frustrated his plans and because I was of a different opinion. Shortly afterward we had another clash regard-ing the defense of Munich, which was completely hopeless. The Armed Forces commander was fired 8 days before me, and on 20 April I was also dismissed and all my offices were taken away from me and I was without power.
THE PRESIDENT: The man you are speaking of, the Gauleiter, was Gauleiter of what district? What Gau?
VON EBERSTEIN: Munich and Upper Bavaria. He was also Bavarian Minister President and Bavarian Minister of the Interior and Reich Defense Commissioner.
HERR PELCKAL4-NN: Witness, you have just described the various characteristics of Gauleiter Giesler. According to the struc-ture of the internal administration at the time, did he formally have the right to take the actions which he intended to carry out?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. In all questions concerning the defense of the country, the Reich Defense Commissioner could impose his will on the strength of the existing regulations for the Reich Defense Commissioners. In addition as I have already said, the man was Bavarian Minister President, and as such the supreme powers in the province were united in his person.
HERR PELCKMANN: In some of the final speeches of my fellow counsel for the chief defendants it was said that in the course of the war the SS-it was put in this form-the SS came to represent the Government in Germany. Will you please describe in whose hands, according to your opinion and your experience at the time and by virtue of your high position, in whose hands the executive power was, from 1933 to 1945?
VON EBERSTEIN: In any case, not in the hands of the SS. During the war, important functions of the Reich power were in the hands of the Reich Defense Commissioners, who could take part in everything except the Reich special administration. I need only refer to the Reich law of, I believe, 16 November 1942. Moreover, through the influence of Martin Bormann, everything inside the Reich was uniformly directed more or less by the Gauleiter and the Reich Defense Commissioners. The SS was at no time a decisive factor. The General SS, as I testified on Saturday, no longer existed -at all, and the troops of the Waffen-SS were at the front.
HERR PELCKMANN: One more question, Witness. When and in what way did you learn that members of the Jewish population in your district were deported to the East?