dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Then you set out the co-workers, number of departments of the Foreign Office, and then one permanent representative of the Reich Security Main Office -- that's Himmler's office, isn't it?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And one representative of the office of Reichsleiter Rosenberg. That department just up above "Inland II," that is the Foreign Office which had liaison with the SS, isn't it?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: At that time the chief was a man called Wagner and the assistant chief, Von Thadden?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you still say that you were against the policy of persecution of the Jews?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I maintain that now as before. I also say, as I have already said during earlier interrogations, that even the holding of an anti-Jewish congress in its effect would not have been directed against the Jews because what was happening in Germany was all taking place under the seal of secrecy and no one was informed in any way. The Jews disappeared. But if there had been an international congress, one would have been forced in the first place to bring up the question: where are these Jews anyway? What is actually happening to these Jews?
COL. PHILLIMORE: Is the point this, that you wanted to put off an anti-Jewish congress because that would be known to the world, but you were quite prepared to set up an organization in the Foreign Office?
VON STEENGRACHT: Gentlemen, we must separate two completely different problems here. The one problem is this: There were offices in Germany which conducted and carried out anti-Jewish measures. These organizations also reached abroad and there, without the knowledge and without the participation of the Foreign Office, did away with the people in foreign countries. Consequently, an improvement and a policy guided to some extent into normal channels could exist only if some German department had really assumed responsibility for these things at that time. For we did not hear of these matters; we always heard the complaints which we received from foreign mission heads about events which took place. But we had no means of control. If I applied to the inner German offices ...
COL. PHILLIMORE: Was this set up to control the anti-Jewish policy, this department?
VON STEENGRACHT: Apparently we are discussing two different matters here today. The anti-Jewish congress had been ordered. The fact that Rosenberg's office was holding an anti-Jewish congress ...
THE PRESEDENT: You are not answering the question. The question was: Was this organization, referred to in this letter, set up to control the organization of anti-Jewish work abroad? That is the question. Can you not answer that by "yes" or "no"?
VON STEENGRACHT: The Foreign Office could not exercise general control since all anti-Jewish questions were principally dealt with in Rosenberg's office.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Well then, what was the purpose of this organization of the Foreign Office?
VON STEENGRACHT: By Hitler's order we had to contact all German departments and archives in order to collect all the material there, and we attached importance ...
COL. PHILLIMORE: And this was ordered by Ribbentrop, wasn't it?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: As set out in your letter?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. And we thought it important that we get an idea in this way of what was actually happening to the Jews, et cetera , and therefore we drew in people from all offices.
COL. PHILLIMORE: I will show you in a minute what was actually happening and out of your own files, but I just want to put this to you: The point of your putting off the anti-Jewish congress was simply because you did not want the world to know. You had not the slightest objection to setting up an anti-Jewish organization in Germany. Now, will you look at Page 32 of the German text. My Lord, that is on Page 23 of the English text. You will see there a letter from Rosenberg's office to the Foreign Office, signed by Brautigam, Page 32 of the German text. It is marked at the bottom of Page 32. Brautigam was your liaison officer with Rosenberg, wasn't he, Witness? Was Brautigam your liaison officer in Rosenberg's office?
VON STEENGRACHT: No. Brautigam was, I think, in the Foreign Office in 1941.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And in 1942.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, but in 1941, since he had previously been working on Eastern problems in the Foreign Office, he had been transferred and was now in the Rosenberg office.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. And you will see there he is referring to a conference with ObersturmbannFuehrer Eichmann, that is, the chief of the Jewish section of the Gestapo, and a Dr. Wetzel, and he sends you a copy of an agreement made at Tighina in Romania on the 30th of August 1941 with the request for acknowledgment.
VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor, there could be an error here. This letter is dated 11 March 1942. I became State Secretary in May 1943. I therefore know nothing about this matter. I should like to remark ...
COL. PHILLIMORE: You just listen and wait until you are asked a question. We shall get on faster if you just listen to the letter: Now, that enclosed an agreement made between the German and Romanian General Staffs, and, if you will look at Paragraph 7, on Page 38 of the German, Page 27 of the English, this was the agreement they made: And then there's a note on the file on the next page of the German, still on Page 27 of the English: Now, do you doubt that that agreement, enclosed with that letter sent to the Foreign Office, would have reached the Defendant Ribbentrop?
VON STEENGRACHT: Well. I see this document and this agreement for the first time today. Nothing of this entire affair...
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Would you answer the question? Do you doubt that that letter and that agreement enclosed with it would have been shown to the Defendant Ribbentrop?
VON STEENGRACHT: At that time there was an Under Secretary of State Luther in the Foreign Office who acted quite independently; and I fought a bitter battle against him although I was not called upon to do it, because he wanted to introduce National Socialist methods. Whether he submitted this matter to Ribbentrop or not I cannot decide.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. We come to a time when you were the State Secretary. Would you look at Page 31 of the German text, Page 20 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: What do the words that follow the passage you have just read mean on Page 27: "Bucharest, 17 October 1941 (Signature illegible)" -- and below -- "To be discussed with Vice Minister President Antonescu. Confidential, Bucharest, 16 October 1943"?
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is badly typed. "Bucharest, 17 October 1943" and then follows the next letter. The previous part is a note on the file.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
COL. PHILLIMORE: It is a note on the German Legation file on Bucharest.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
COL. PHILLIMORE: I have not troubled the Tribunal with the following letters. They deal with the earlier date on the expulsion of Jews from firms owned by citizens of the German Reich. [Turning to the witness.] Now would you look at Page 31 of the German, Page 20 of the English. You will see there a document sent to ...
THE PRESIDENT: When you started that document you didn't give the date in full. The year there appears to be 1944, doesn't it?
COL. PHILLIMORE: It is not. In 1942, I think, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: It should be April 29, 1942? Is the date at the head of the document?
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the letter I read was dated March '42 and marked with a foreign office stamp "Received 13th of March 1942..."
THE PRESIDENT: I am speaking of the whole document, Page 1 of the document.
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is a file, one of those rather inconvenient documents, a file, and it starts with the earliest date at the bottom and then works up to 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, then the part you read first ...
COL. PHILLIMORE: That was 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. What page are you going to now?
COL. PHILLIMORE: I was going to Page 20 now, My Lord. [Turning to the witness.] Now, this is a communication from Von Thadden who was, as you have told us, assistant in the Department Inland II, to the German Legation in Bucharest. It is dated 12 October 1943, and it is stamped as received on 18 October. And he encloses a letter signed by Muller in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, to all German police authorities abroad. You will see that it goes to the commander of the Security Police in Prague, The Hague, Paris, Brussels, Metz, Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Krakow, Kiev, Smolensk, and so on. October '43. That is after you had become Secretary of State, isn't it?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You were appointed in April?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Turning to the substance of the letter, the subject is the treatment of Jews with foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power: And then there are arrangements about baggage. And if you look at 31-e, you will see at the foot of Page 22, on the English, that that had been signed by Muller and then was signed again by a clerk of Himmler's office. And then on the next page of the English, still on 31-e of the German, Himmler's office sends it to the Foreign Office, to Von Thadden, on 2 October. Now, did you not see that document when it got to the Foreign Office?
VON STEENGRACHT: No, I see this document today for the first time.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You were the State Secretary?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. This obviously concerns a measure which was ordered by another office. Within the German Reich the Foreign Office had no executive powers at all and no possibilities and consequently...
COL. PHILLIMORE: No executive powers, but it was sent to you for information.
VON STEENGRACHT: That was sent to us, this affair, solely for our information, and it was not given to me, this affair.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You had a departmental liaison with the SS, a Mr. Von Thadden. Was he not a competent official?
VON STEENGRACHT: The exact content of this affair I do not even know now, because I have not read it through at leisure. I can imagine only the following in reference to this whole matter: The question whether the Jews who were in Germany could be returned to their home countries was discussed for a long time. This, I think, is what we are concerned with here?
COL. PHILLIMORE: I don't think we are interested in your imagination. Either you know or do not know. I asked you whether Von Thadden was a competent official.
VON STEENGRACHT: I have not seen this document.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You are not answering the question. Was Von Thadden a competent official?
VON STEENGRACHT: Von Thadden was a man from the Foreign Office who knew his job.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, knew his job. And do you not think that as State Secretary he ought to have shown you this document?
VON STEENGRACHT: He should have done that, certainly, if this matter was not arranged in another office, and I was completely excluded from the anti-Jewish action. Also instructions about anti-Jewish actions abroad never went through my office. I pointed out yesterday, at the beginning of my statement, that many matters were arranged directly in the highest places, and that the Foreign Office also was not notified afterwards, and orders in these matters...
COL. PHILLIMORE: This is a document you were informed about?
VON STEENGRACHT: Muller sent it to the Foreign Office.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And you sent it to your legation at Bucharest?
VON STEENGRACHT: He ought certainly to have put that before me. But I did not see it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And if you just look again at the letter, you notice how Muller's instructions start. He begins, "In agreement with the Foreign Office..."
VON STEENGRACHT: Where does it say so? Unfortunately I have not found it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: At the start of the letter: "Subject: Treatment of Jews of foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power." And then he begins: "In agreement with the Foreign Office..." Does that just mean in agreement with Mr. Von Thadden?
VON STEENGRACHT: I assume that this type of thing went to the competent experts, and since this concerns a basic matter it was put directly before Herr Von Ribbentrop. I request that Herr Von Ribbentrop should be asked whether he knows of this matter or not. I have not seen this matter.
COL. PHILLIMORE: This is a matter of such importance that it could not have been agreed with the Foreign Office without Ribbentrop being consulted; isn't that the case?
VON STEENGRACHT: In my opinion, I would never have decided alone on this matter if it had been put before me. I am of the opinion that it was an affair which would have to be put before Von Ribbentrop.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Good. And, of course, Von Ribbentrop was one of the most ruthless persecutors of Jews, wasn't he?
VON STEENGRACHT: That is not correct.
COL. PHILLIMORE: I am going to read you a short passage from a conference between the Fuehrer, Ribbentrop and the Hungarian Regent, Horthy. This is Document D-736, which was put in as Exhibit GB-283 by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, to the Defendant Goering. This was a meeting at Klesshelm Castle on the morning of 17 of April 1943. And you see the minutes are signed by Schmidt.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. PBILLIMORE: The question of Jews was raised: And then, you see, the Fuehrer goes on to describe them as tuberculosis bacilli. Now, in the face of that document, do you still say that the Defendant Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
VON STEENGRACHT: I said yesterday already that Herr Von Ribbentrop, when he was with Hitler ...
COL. PHILLIMORE: Never mind what you said yesterday. I am putting it to you now, today. You have now seen that document. Do you still say that Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
VON STEENGRACHT: Here, too, I should like to make a distinction between the real instincts of Von Ribbentrop and what he said when he was under Hitler's influence. I said already yesterday that he was completely hypnotized by Hitler and then became his tool.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, became his tool. And from then on, he was prepared to do anything that Hitler wanted and was as violent a Nazi as anyone; isn't that right?
VON STEENGRACHT: He followed blindly the orders given by Hitler.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. And to the extent of conniving at any and every atrocity, isn't that right?
VON STEENGRACHT: Since he had no executive powers he personally did not commit these cruelties.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other chief prosecutors want to cross-examine?
COL. AMEN: You testified yesterday that you did not consider Ribbentrop to be a typical Nazi; is that correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi?
VON STEENGRACHT: Goering made speeches at every type of meeting and fought for the seizure of power, and accordingly he had a completely different position in the party than Ribbentrop.
COL.AMEN: I think you can answer my question "yes" or "no." We are trying to save time as much as possible.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, certainly.
COL. AMEN: Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi according to the same standards that you were using with Ribbentrop yes or no?
VON STEENGRACHT: This question one cannot answer in that way with "yes" or "no." I am trying every...
COL. AMEN: You answered it that way with respect to Ribbentrop, didn't you?
VON STEENGRACHT: Goering was a peculiar type of person. I cannot class him with the ordinary Nazis, as one usually expresses it.
COL. AMEN: In other words, you don't know whether you think he is a typical Nazi or not, is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?
VON STEENGRACHT: By a typical Nazi one understands the "average" Nazi. Goering is a unique person and one cannot compare his manner of living with the other National Socialists.
COL. AMEN: Well, are you acquainted with all of the gentlemen in the box there in front of you?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Now, will you tell me which of those individuals you consider to be a typical Nazi, according to the standards which you applied yesterday to Ribbentrop?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I do not want to interrupt your cross-examination, but want to say that there is too much laughter and noise in Court, and I cannot have it. Go on, Colonel; with your cross-examination.
COL. AMEN: Do you understand my last question? Please name those of the defendants in the box whom you consider to be typical Nazis, on the same standard which you yesterday applied to Ribbentrop.
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I am convinced that here the witness is making a decision which in my opinion should be made by the Court at the end of the proceedings. That is an evaluation which the witness cannot make.
COL. AMEN: This is the subject that was brought up by this very Counsel yesterday with respect to Ribbentrop.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it a perfectly proper question. They understand that the phrase "a typical Nazi" was used by the witness himself.
COL. AMEN: And please just give us the names and not a long explanation, if you can.
VON STEENGRACHT: I said yesterday that by "typical Nazi" I meant people who are familiar with the dogma and doctrine. I want to add today that by "typical Nazis" I mean further those people who during the time of struggle represented National Socialist ideology and were propagandists of National Socialism. Rosenberg's book is known, Herr Frank, as President of the Academy for German Law is known, these are really -- Hess, of course, too -- and these are people whom I want to put into the foreground very particularly because by their writings and so forth and by their speeches they became known. No one ever heard Ribbentrop make an election speech.
COL. AMEN: But you are not answering my question. Am I to assume from that that in your opinion Rosenberg, Frank and Hess are the only persons whom you could characterize as being typical Nazis, according to your standards?
VON STEENGRACHT: Well, shall I go through the ranks of the defendants to give an opinion on each one?
COL. AMEN: Precisely. Just give me the names. No, I do not want your opinion. I want to know under your standards which of them you consider to be typical Nazis.
VON STEENGRACHT: I have already stated the standard before. It can be proved by whether the people unreservedly represented the National Socialist ideology in words or at meetings and in this respect I named the prominent ones.
COL. AMEN: And you consider all of the others not to be typical Nazis? Correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: I did not say that. Then I would have to go through them individually.
COL. AMEN: I have asked you to do that three times. Will you please name them individually?
VON STEENGRACHT: I also see Herr Sauckel . Herr Sauckel was Gauleiter and was active as a leader in the National Socialist movement. Then I see the Reich Youth Leader, who educated the Hitler Youth.
COL. AMEN: Who else? Just give me the names. Do not give these explanations, please.
VON STEENGRACHT: Well, I think that with that I have pointed out the typical representatives of the Party.
COL. AMEN: Well, how about Streicher?
VON STEENGRACHT: I do not see him here, or I would have answered in the affirmative.
COL. AMEN: In other words, you consider him to be a typical Nazi under your standards?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, but please do not attribute his abuses to all National Socialists.
COL. AMEN: Now, while you were working with Ribbentrop, do I understand that you knew nothing about the murders, tortures, starvations and killings which were taking place in the concentration camps?
VON STEENGRACHT: By the fact that foreign diplomats applied to me, and by the fact that I was informed by opposition elements in Germany, and from enemy propaganda, I knew of the existence and some of the methods. But, I emphasize, only a part of the methods. I learned about the total extent and degree only in internment here.
COL. AMEN: Did you know that priests were being tortured and starved and killed in concentration camps while you were working with Ribbentrop?
VON STEENGRACHT: No, I heard nothing specific regarding individual things that occurred there, and if that had happened or has happened to priests, then I would consider the only authentic information to be that which the Nuncio or the Vatican had given me; but that did not occur. But in spite of the fact that, as I said yesterday, the Vatican had no jurisdiction, I took care of all cases based on humanity, that is, all humanitarian cases. I took care of them, and always strove to handle them successfully. I handled 87 cases in which my activity threatened to bring about my death. I intervened in hundreds of cases, and thus saved, or at least improved, the lives of thousands and thousands of people.
COL. AMEN: If you don't confine your answers directly to my questions, it is very difficult to get through and to save time. Now, will you please try to answer my questions "yes" or "no," if possible, and make your explanations short. Do you understand?
VON STEENGRACHT: I understand perfectly. As far as I can, I shall of course do so.
COL. AMEN: Did you know that nuns were being tortured and starved and killed in concentrations camps, while you were working with Ribbentrop?
VON STEENGRACHT: No.
COL. AMEN: You did not know either about what was happening to priests or the nuns or to other inmates of concentrations camps? Correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: I have just said that I have intervened in hundreds of cases, in which I was approached by the Nuncio even when it concerned Jews, for whom the Nuncio was not authorized to act, and in cases in which the Nuncio was acting on behalf of Polish clergymen, also a sphere for which he was not authorized. In spite of the fact that I had strictest orders not to receive such cases, I did receive the cases; and, in spite of the "Nacht und Nebel" decree, I always gave information when I could get any information. Details other than those which I received officially I did not have.
COL. AMEN: And who gave you the instructions not to do anything about these complaints?
VON STEENGRACHT: These orders came directly from Hitler and came to me through Ribbentrop.
COL. AMEN: How do you know?
VON STEENGRACHT: I have already said yesterday that the two notes which before my time were passed by State Secretary Von Weizsacker to Hitler through Ribbentrop were rejected with the remarks that they were blunt lies and, apart from that, this was not within the jurisdiction of the Nuncio; these notes were to be returned and in the future such documents were not to be accepted. Furthermore, there were to be no discussions and that applied, not only to the Nuncio, it applied to all unauthorized actions particularly when foreign diplomats intervened in matters in which they had no jurisdiction.
COL. AMEN: But do you want the Tribunal to understand that you went ahead and tried to do something about these complaints, whereas Ribbentrop did nothing; is that correct?