dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
HOEPKEN: Yes. He was SS Brigadefuehrer Blaschke, he was also appointed by the Ministry of the Interior as acting mayor.
DR. SAUTER: By the Ministry of the Interior?
HOEPKEN: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When was that?
HOEPKEN: I believe that was in 1944, in January or February of 1944.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know that this SS Brigadefuehrer, or whatever he was, this Blaschke, before the time of the Defendant Von Schirach, was active in Vienna as a town councillor, and I believe also as vice mayor?
HOEPKEN: He was a town councillor before; and I believe he was vice mayor before I came to Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know that the Defendant Von Schirach for a long time opposed this SS Oberfuehrer or Brigadefuehrer Blaschke being appointed mayor of Vienna?
HOEPKEN: I should say he opposed this for about 6 or 9 months, and I believe later he refused to allow the Minister of the Interior finally to confirm his appointment as mayor.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what were the relations between the Defendant Von Schirach and the SS and the SS officers? Were they especially friendly and cordial or what were they like?
HOEPKEN: As far as I know, Schirach associated with the SS Fuehrer as far as was officially necessary and no more.
DR. SAUTER: Was he friendly with SS men?
HOEPKEN: No; I do not know. In any case I knew of no such friendship.
DR. SAUTER: Did he not express to you his attitude toward the SS?
HOEPKEN: I have already said that he always had the feeling that he was under a certain supervision from them and for that reason he was rather distrustful.
DR. SAUTER: Distrustful of . ..
HOEPKEN: Of the SS.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know how the Defendant Von Schirach received his information about the foreign press and foreign press reports?
HOEPKEN: He received them from the Reich Propaganda Office in Vienna. They were excerpts which the Propaganda Ministry issued in collaboration with the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich. As far, as I know, however, they were selected and screened.
DR. SAUTER: Did you live for a long time with Von Schirach in Vienna?
HOEPKEN: From 1944 on I lived in Schirach's house.
DR. SAUTER: You also took your meals with him?
HOEPKEN: Yes, I also took meals with him.
DR. SAUTER: Did not the Defendant Von Schirach obtain information from the foreign radio?
HOEPKEN: No, I am almost certain he did not, because after every meal he listened to the official German news services with me and a few other co-workers. Besides, if he had done so it would in my opinion have become known very soon for, as I said already, he had the feeling that he was being watched.
TEE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the witness can only tell us what he knows. How could he know whether Von Schirach ever listened to any foreign news? If he does not know, why do you not take him on to something else?
DR. SAUTER: The witness said, Mr. President, that during the latter part of his time in Vienna, from the spring of 1944 I believe he said, he lived in the house of the Defendant Von Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know he said that, and he said that he did not think he heard foreign news. What more can he give? What more evidence can he give on that subject?
DR. SAUTER: I wanted to hear that, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: But he said it already. I have taken it down. Thy do you not go on to something else?
DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know that in the last weeks of the resistance an order came to Vienna from Berlin according to which all defeatists, whether men or women, were to be hanged? What attitude did Schirach take toward this order?
HOEPKEN: I know that so-called courts martial were to be set up with the purpose of speedily sentencing people who objected to the conduct of the war or who showed themselves to be defeatists. This court martial was set up in Vienna, or rather appointed, but it did not meet once, and thus did not pronounce any sentences.
DR. SAUTER: Did the court-martial of the Defendant Von Schirach carry on any proceedings at all?
HOEPKEN: No, not to my knowledge.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know anything about it?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, that fact, again, was given in evidence by Von Schirach and was not cross-examined to-that that court martial did not meet.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know anything about the fact that in the last weeks an order came to form franc-tireur units? What was Von Schirach's attitude to that?
HOEPKEN: I do not know that franc-tireur units were to be formed, but I do know that a "Freikorps Hitler" was to be formed. They were to be in civilian clothes. Schirach ordered that no people from the Reichsgau Vienna were to be assigned to this "Freikorps."
DR. SAUTER: Why not?
HOEPKEN: Because at that time he considered resistance senseless. Secondly, because he considered it contrary to international law.
DR. SAUTER: My last question to you, Witness. You were with Schirach to the last, until he left Henna?
HOEPKEN: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach give an order to destroy bridges or churches, residential quarters, and so form, in Vienna?
HOEPKEN: No, I do not know of that.
DR. SAUTER: What was the position he took?
HOEPKEN: That orders to blow up bridges or to take any defense measures were given only by the military authorities, as far as I know.
DR. SAUTER: But not by Schirach?
HOEPKEN: No.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no more questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defendant's counsel want to ask questions? The Prosecution?
MR. DODD: Witness, would you see all of the files that were in Von Schirach's office during the time that you were his adjutant?
HOEPKEN: I have already told you, or I told the defense counsel, that most of the mail went through the Central Bureau.
MR. DODD: I want to show you a document that is in evidence here and ask you if you can tell us whether or not you have seen this before. [A document was handed to the witness.] Have you ever seen that document before?
HOEPKEN: I do not know this document officially, as I see it is dated 28 May 1942, at which time I was an officer in the Luftwaffe.
MR. DODD: I see, you did not mean the Tribunal to understand that you were familiar with everything that was in Von Schirach's files, because certainly this document was there during the years that you were his adjutant. You never saw it. It is marked "Central Bureau," and you had charge of these very files, yet you never saw this teletype to Bormann? So you certainly did not know everything that was in his files, did you?
HOEPKEN: I said that the majority of the mail went through my offices but, of course, since I was not in Vienna at this time but only came to Vienna in April 1943, I was not able to look through all the back documents and letters in the files of the Reich Governor. That would have taken years.
MR. DODD: Let me ask you something else. You were there in the last days, I assume, when the city was taken by the Allied Forces, were you not?
HOEPKEN: I was in Vienna until April 1945.
MR. DODD: What was done with Von Schirach's files when the end was very obviously coming? What did you do with all those files over which you had control?
HOEPKEN: I was not in charge of any files. I was chief of the bureau, and I,..
MR. DODD: Well, you know what I mean chief of the bureau or of the office where these files were kept. What I want to know is what did you do with the files?
HOEPKEN: I gave no orders in this connection.
MR. DODD: Do you know what became of the files?
HOEPKEN: No, I do not.
MR. DODD: They were taken out of the of lice sometime before the city was captured; do you not know that?
HOEPKEN: No, I did not know that.
MR. DODD: Were the files there the last day that you were there?
HOEPKEN: Probably, yes.
MR. DODD: I do not want a "probably." I want to know if you know and if you do, to tell us. Were they there or not the last day that you were in the office?
HOEPKEN: I gave no orders to destroy them or to remove them.
MR. DODD: I did not ask you if you gave orders. I asked you if you know what became of them and whether or not they were in the of lice the last day that you were there?
HOEPKEN: I do not know what happened to them. Nor can I say whether they were still there on the last day.
MR. DODD: Do you not know that they were all moved to a salt mine in Austria?
HOEPKEN: No, I do not know that.
MR. DODD: You have never heard that, or that they were taken out of the office and were later found by the Allied Forces in a salt mine?
HOEPKEN: No, I do not know that.
MR. DODD: I do not mean that you heard they were found there, but you certainly knew that they were taken out of the of lice?
HOEPKEN: No, I do not know. I also gave no orders.
MR. DODD: Well, now, let me put this proposition to you, and then perhaps you can give an explanation of it to the Tribunal. This document that I have just shown to you and these reports that you examined for Dr. Sauter were all found in Schirach's files in a salt mine. Would you have any explanation for that?
HOEPKEN: No, I cannot explain that.
MR. DODD: They were found together. Would that mean anything to you, or would you have any explanation for it?
HOEPKEN: No, I have not. I can only explain that by saying that probably the Chief of the Reich Governor's office or one of his officials who was in charge of these things gave the order to that effect, of course without my knowledge and without any order from me.
MR. DODD: Tell the Tribunal exactly what day you closed up your office in Vienna, or the last day that you were in this office.
HOEPKEN: It might have been the 3rd or 4th of April.
MR. DODD: When was the city taken?
HOEPKEN: I read in the newspaper afterwards that the city finally fell into the hands of the Allies on 13 April
MR. DODD: Did you all leave your office on the ad or 4th of April? Did Von Schirach leave as well, and all the clerical staff, et cetera?
HOEPKEN: Schirach and I and his adjutant left the office on this day, or rather, Schirach had previously set up his of lice at his home and was working there.
MR. DODD: Had he taken any files from his of lice to his home?
HOEPKEN: Only what he needed immediately to carry on his business; that is, the matters which were being dealt with at the moment.
MR. DODD: Did you leave someone in charge of the files when you left there, you and Von Schirach- on the ad of April; and if you did, who was it that you left in charge?
HOEPKEN: I did not leave anyone to supervise. The file clerks did that of their own accord.
MR. DODD: I am trying to understand-and I think it would be helpful to the Tribunal-whether or not you just walked out of this of lice and left everything there, or whether just you and Von Schirach left and left other people there, or whether the place was in such chaos that nobody remained. I have not any accurate picture of it, and I think it is of some importance. You ought to be able to tell us. You left there with him. What was the situation on the ad or 4th of April? The city was practically to be taken in another 10 days. It was under siege. There was much confusion. What were you doing about your files and all of your other papers in your office when you walked out of there that day? You certainly just did not walk out and not give some directions.
HOEPKEN: I believe that we are not clear about the character of the Central Bureau. The Central Bureau, of which I was in charge for the last few months, had no powers, no executive powers, but all of these things were done by the competent Reich Governor, that is, the Regierungsprasident, and he probably...
MR. DODD: I do not need any explanation of how your office was set up. I want to know if the papers were left there or not, or if anybody was left with them.
HOEPKEN: The papers, as far as I know, were left there, and the archivists were instructed to take care of them.
MR. DODD: Did you order any papers to be destroyed before you walked out that day, the ad or 4th of April, anything at all?
HOEPKEN: I gave no orders to destroy anything in the Reich Governor's Office; I had no authority to do that.
MR. DODD: Did anybody to your knowledge order anything destroyed, whether you did or not?
HOEPKEN: Whether such an order was given and who gave it, I do not know.
MR. DODD: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document you put to him?
MR. DODD: Number USA-865. It is Document 3877-PS, a teletype to Bormann from Von Schirach on 28 May 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine the witness, Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I should like to go back to what the Prosecution just asked you. The documents of the Reich Governor's office apparently are supposed to have been found in a salt mine. Did you have any supervision over the documents of the Reich Governor's office?
HOEPKEN: No, I had no supervision over these documents. I just explained that. For that reason, I could not give any order to remove them. I know that valuable objects, pictures, and so on, were removed, but much earlier.
DR. SAUTER: And the other employees of the Central Bureau, were they Viennese? Did they stay in the office, or what do you know about that?
HOEPKEN: Most of them were Viennese, of course, and probably remained behind. I shook hands and said goodbye to them, and then we separated. I also asked whether I could do anything for them, and then I left Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Perhaps we had better adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to the application on behalf of the Defendant Bormann the Tribunal allows witness Number 1, Miss Else Kruger. The Tribunal allows witnesses Numbers 3 and 4, Dr. Klopfer and Helmuth Friedrich. The Tribunal also allows the witness whose name I have got inserted instead of Number 2, Christians, I think it was. With reference to the documents applied for, Numbers 1 to 7, the application is refused. But the Tribunal will consider any application for documents which the defendants' counsel, who may be appointed to argue the general questions of law on behalf of all the defendants, may wish to have translated. Document Number 11 may be translated. Counsel for the Defendant Bormann may see the documents which are mentioned under Roman Number III in the application and counsel for the Defendant Bormann may also use the documents contained under heading "B." The final decision upon the admissibility of all these documents is, of course, a matter which will be decided at the time the documents are presented. There is one other thing that I want to announce, and it is in answer to the application of Dr. Servatius on behalf of the Defendant Sauckel. I am told that the witness Timm is in Nuremberg prison. The witness Biedemann is also in Nuremberg prison. The witness Hildebrandt will probably arrive in Nuremberg today. His whereabouts had been lost and he has only just been rediscovered. The witness Jager is in the British zone, and the British secretary is trying through the military authorities to obtain his attendance. The witness Stothfang has not been located. There appears to be a mistake in the identity of the person who was reported to the General Secretary previously. The witness Mitschke has never been located, although every effort is now being made to locate him. That is all.
DR. SAUTER: I ask permission to call a further witness, Fritz Wieshofer. I shall examine this witness only very briefly, because most points have already been clarified through the other witnesses. [The witness Wieshofer took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
FRITZ WIESHOFER (Witness): Fritz Wieshofer.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Wieshofer, how old are you?
WIESHOFER: 31 years old.
DR. SAUTER: Married?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Children?
WIESHOFER: One son.
DR. SAUTER: Were you a member of the Party?
WIESHOFER: I applied for membership in 1938.
DR. SAUTER: You only applied for membership?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were you a member of the SS or the SA?
WIESHOFER: I was in the Waffen-SS.
DR. SAUTER: Since when?
WIESHOFER: Since June 1940.
DR. SAUTER: Are you Austrian by birth?
WIESHOFER: I am Austrian.
DR. SAUTER: When did you join the Reich Youth Leader's Of lice?
WIESHOFER: I joined Herr Von Schirach on 3 October 1940.
DR. SAUTER: And what did you do before that?
WIESHOFER: Before that I had a temporary post in the Foreign Of lice.
DR. SAUTER: For how long?
WIESHOFER: Only from May until October 1940.
DR. SAUTER: And before that?
WIESHOFER: Before that I was employed in the Gauleiter's office in Carinthia.
DR. SAUTER: Did you have anything to do with the Hitler Youth? WIESHOFER: No.
DR. SAUTER: In October of 1940, then, you came to Vienna to join Von Schirach?
WIESHOFER: Yes, to Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: In what capacity did you go there?
WIESHOFER: I went there as Von Schirach's adjutant.
DR. SAUTER: And what did your duties mostly consist of?
WIESHOFER: As adjutant I was responsible for the handling of the mail, engagements for conferences, seeing to it that files were presented on time at conferences, travel arrangements, and so on.
DR. SAUTER: Did you only work for Schirach in his capacity as Reich Governor, as Gauleiter, or did you act for him only as mayor?
WIESHOFER: I was adjutant for Herr Von Schirach in all his capacities.
DR. SAUTER: Did you also have access to the secret files?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I shall only have a very few brief questions to put to you. First of all, I am interested in this: Who was responsible for the forced evacuation of Jews from Vienna?
WIESHOFER: The forced evacuation of Jews from Vienna, as far as I know, was handled by the RSHA. The representative in Vienna was a certain Dr. Brunner, an Obersturmfuehrer in the SS.
DR. SAUTER: Did you often visit Dr. Brunner officially in connection with the forced evacuation of Jews, and for what reason?
WIESHOFER: In some cases, Jews who were affected by this forced evacuation made written applications to Von Schirach to be left out of the transport. In such cases, Von Schirach, through the Chief of his Central Bureau, took the matter up with Dr. Brunner's office and asked that the request of the applicant be granted. I would say that generally this was done by the Chief of the Central Bureau. I remember two cases where I myself received instructions to intervene with Dr. Brunner, not by writing or telephoning, but by going to see him personally.
DR. SAUTER: And what did this SS Sturmfuehrer Dr. Brunner tell you about what was actually going to happen to the Jews when they were taken away from Vienna?
WIESHOFER: Dr. Brunner only told me, on the occasion of one of these interventions, that the action of resettling the Jews would be a resettlement from the district of Vienna into the zone of the former Government General. He also told me in what way this was being carried out. For instance he said that women and small children would travel in second-class carriages; that sufficient rations for the journey and milk for small children would be provided. He also told me that these resettled persons, upon arrival at their destination, insofar as they were capable of working, would immediately be put to work. First of all, they would be put into assembly camps, but that as soon as accommodation was available, they would be given homes, et cetera. He also told me that because of the numerous interventions by Herr Von Schirach his work had been made very difficult.
DR. SAUTER: Did you, or have you-I will put my next question this way: Did you ever see an order in which Gauleiter were forbidden to intervene in any way on behalf of Jews, and did you discuss that order with Von Schirach?
WIESHOFER: I recollect a written order which we received either at the end of 1940 or at the beginning of 1941. It stated that "There are reasons which make it necessary once more to point out," et cetera. It obviously was a repetition of an order which had already been given. The purport of the order was that because of certain reasons, Gauleiter were prohibited from intervening on behalf of Jews in the future.
DR. SAUTER: Did you talk about that with Schirach?
WIESHOFER: I talked to Herr Von Schirach about it.
DR. SAUTER: What did he say?
WIESHOFER: As far as I can recollect, Von Schirach wrote on the order "To be filed." He did not say anything more about it.
DR. SAUTER: I have another question, Witness. The Defendant Von Schirach was once in the concentration camp at Mauthausen. Can you tell us when that was?
WIESHOFER: I cannot tell you that exactly. All I can say on that subject is that when I came back from the front-and this was either in the autumn of 1942 or in June 1943-the adjutant who was on duty at the time told me that he had accompanied Herr Von Schirach to a concentration camp, Mauthausen Camp. Some time afterwards-it must have been when I came back from the front the second time, at the end of 1943-Herr Von Schirach also told me that he had been to Mauthausen. I only recollect that he said that he had heard a symphony concert there.
DR. SAUTER: Well, we are not interested in that; we have heard that. I am only interested in one thing: Did he visit Mauthausen or another concentration camp again later on? Can you give us reliable information on that or not?
WIESHOFER: I can give you reliable information on that. That is quite out of the question, because from November 1943 until the collapse I was continuously on duty and I knew where Von Schirach was, day and night.
DR. SAUTER: Did he go to Mauthausen again in 1944?
WIESHOFER: No, certainly not, that is out of the question.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, you remember that toward the end of the war there were orders coming from some source or other stating that enemy airmen who had been forced to land were no longer to be protected. Do you know of that?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: That somewhere such orders were issued?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What was the attitude of Defendant Von Schirach regarding such orders, and how do you know about it?
WIESHOFER: I talked about these orders with Herr Von Schirach. Von Schirach was always against the idea contained in the order, and he always said that these airmen, too, should be treated as prisoners of war. Once he said: "If we do not do that, then there is the danger that our enemies, too, will treat their prisoners, that is Germans, in the same manner."
DR. SAUTER: Do you yourself know of cases where Defendant Von Schirach actuary intervened on behalf of enemy airmen in that way?
WIESHOFER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Will you please tell us about it?
WIESHOFER: During one of the last air attacks on Vienna, in March 1945, an American plane was shot down and crashed near the headquarters of the Gau command post. That command post was on a wooded hill in Vienna to which part of the population used to go during air attacks. Von Schirach was watching from a 32-meter high iron structure on which he would always stand during air attacks, and he observed that a member of the American crew bailed out of the aircraft. He immediately ordered the commander in charge of this command post to drive to the place of the landing so as to protect the American soldier against the crowd and bring him to safety. The American soldier was brought to the command post and after the air attack he was handed over to the Air Force Command XVII as a prisoner of war.
DR. SAUTER: When did you leave Vienna?
WIESHOFER: I left Vienna with Herr Von Schirach on 13 April 1945.
DR. SAUTER: On 13 April together with the Defendant Von Schirach?
WIESHOFER: Together with Herr Von Schirach.
DR. SAUTER: Now, this is the last question I have to put to you: Witness, have you ever heard from Schirach's lips anything to the effect that Henna was to be held "to the last man" at all costs, or that destruction should be carried out in Vienna?
WIESHOFER: I have never heard him say either the one or the other.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put this witness.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, do you know the Prater in Vienna?
WIESHOFER: Yes, of course, I am Viennese.
DR. SERVATIUS: What sort of an institution is that?
WIESHOFER: The Prater is, or at least was, a pleasure park.