dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you were there; you know who the co-operators were. I am asking you to name all that you put in that category of criminals with Hitler. Hitler, you know, is dead.
SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, it is very difficult for me to answer that question fully because I do not know who was in that close conspiracy with Hitler. The Defendant Goering has told us here that he considered himself one of that group. There were Himmler and Bormann, but I do not know who else there was in the small circle of men who were trusted by Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have only named three men. Let me put it this way: You named four men criminals, three of whom are dead and one of them you say admitted..
SCHACHT: I can add one more, if you will permit me. I assume that the Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop was also always acquainted with Hitler's plans. I must assume that; I cannot prove it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Whom else did you include when you were talking to the lady?
SCHACHT: On that evening I did not mention any names.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But whom did you have in mind? You surely were not making charges against your own people, who were in charge of your own government, without having definite names in mind.
SCHACHT: I have taken the liberty of mentioning the names to you.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Are those all?
SCHACHT: I do not know, but I assume that there were more. I would add without hesitation, Heydrich. But I cannot know with whom . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Heydrich is a dead man.
SCHACHT: I regret that these people are dead, I would have liked to see them die some other way; but...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, are those the only people that you included?
SCHACHT: I have no proof of the fact that there was anyone else in this conspiracy about whom I could say that there is proof that he was a conspirator.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Dr. Schacht, at the time the Nazis seized power you had a world-wide acquaintance and very great standing as a leading banker in Germany and in the world, did you not?
SCHACHT: I do not know whether that is so, but if that is your opinion I do not wish to contradict you.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, at first you would admit that? Wouldn't you?
SCHACHT: I do not contradict.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And yet as we understand it, you made public appearances in Germany before the German people in support of the Nazi regime, alongside of characters such as Streicher and Bormann.
SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, I have taken the liberty of explaining here that until July 1932 I did not in any way come forward publicly for Hitler or the Party and that, on the contrary, in America for instance, I warned the people against Hitler. At that time I-the name Bormann was, of course, unknown to me at the time; and Streicher's paper, Der Sturmer, was just as revolting to me before that time as afterwards. I did not think that I had anything in common with Herr Streicher.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I didn't either, but that is why I wondered about your appearing with him publicly before the German people after 1933 when the Nazi regime was consolidating its power. You did that, didn't you?
SCHACHT: What did I do, Mr. Justice?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I spoke of your appearances, publicly, before the German people with Streicher and Bormann in support of the Nazi program after the seizure of power.
SCHACHT: I do not think so. I was never seen publicly with Herr Streicher or with Mr. Bormann-certainly not at that time. It is quite possible that he attended the same Party rallies as I, or that I sat next to him; but, at any rate, in 1933 I was never seen publicly either with Streicher or with Bormann.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask to have you shown the photograph from the Hoffmann collection, marked Number 10. You have no difficulty recognizing yourself in that, do you?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And on the right sits Bormann?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MA JUSTICE JACKSON: And next to him the Minister of Labor?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And on the other side of you is Hitler?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And beyond him, Streicher?
SCHACHT: I do not recognize him; I do not know whether it is Streicher, but perhaps it is.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I will offer the photograph in evidence. And perhaps the identification will be sufficient. And also Frick is in that picture?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This becomes Exhibit Number USA-829. [Turning to the defendant.] I will ask to have you shown. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Justice Jackson, what is the date of that photograph?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There is no date given on the photographs. Perhaps the defendant can tell us.
SCHACHT: Mr. Justice, you said that in 1933 I had permitted myself to be seen publicly with Streicher and Bormann as a representative of the National Socialist Party; and I should like to know, therefore, where this, picture was taken and when. I cannot identify it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I asked you about after 1933. Schacht, do you deny this is a photograph...
SCHACHT: No, no. By no means. I am merely asking when it was taken. I do not think this refers to 1933 or 1934.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was it, if you want to tell us?
SCHACHT: I do not know; I cannot tell you.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will show you another photograph- two photographs, Numbers 3 and 4. Number 3 shows you marching with Dr. Robert Ley among others.
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Number 4 shows you entering the hall, marching, and giving the Nazi salute.
SCHACHT: Yes, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Ley the man who suppressed the labor unions of Germany?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those are correct photographs, are they not?
SCHACHT: Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I offer them in evidence under Exhibit Number USA-829. [Turning to the defendant. I will show you photographs marked Numbers 1 and 2 and 6-and 7. Now let us look at Number 1. Do you recall where that was taken?
SCHACHT: Yes-one moment, if it is the number I have here- yes, just a minute.,
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where was it taken?
SCHACHT: I think Number 1 is a picture from the Reich Chancellery, if I am not mistaken.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Among the persona appearing in Number 1 is Frick?
SCHACHT: Gurtner, Goebbels, Popitz, Schacht, Papen, Goering, and others, and Hitler in the middle.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Neurath, do you recognize?
SCHACHT: Neurath. Yes; I think he is immediately on Hitler's right, in the background.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Goebbels?
SCHACHT: Yes, I said Goebbels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You identify Funk as present in the picture, at the extreme right, only a part of his body showing.
SCHACHT: Who is that?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Funk, the Defendant Funk.
SCHACHT: No, that is Goering.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Back of Goering and back of Neurath
SCHACHT: I beg your pardon. Perhaps I have a different picture. I beg your pardon. That is Number 2. On Number 2 I see from left to right: Popitz, Rust, Goering, Neurath, Hitler, Blomberg, Schacht, Gurtner, Krosigk, Eltz van Rubenach, and then at the very back on the right, Funk.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And let us take Number 7. Who do you identify as your company in that photograph?
SCHACHT: On the extreme left, my late wife; then the Vice President of the Reichsbank, Dreyse, Hitler, and myself. There is an adjutant of Hitler, and the heavy-set man on the right-I do not know who he is. This is a photograph taken when the foundation of the new Reichsbank building was laid in 1934. Directly behind me, on the right, is Blomberg.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Number 6?
SCHACHT: One moment. That is the picture where I am walking alongside Hitler, is that right? That is Hitler's entrance in my company, on the occasion when the foundation of the new Reichsbank building was laid. Behind me, or rather behind Hitler, you can see Geheimrat Vocke, who is to appear as a witness here tomorrow, and several other gentlemen from the directorate of the Reichsbank.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I offer the remaining photographs, 1, 6, and 7 in evidence under the same number. So that it would appear, Dr. Schacht, that a good deal of your present company was the company that started off with you in 1933 and 1934?
SCHACHT: Is that a question?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, is that not true?
SCHACHT: No. If you had photographed me with my other acquaintances just as often, the number would be 10 times as great.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You testified-and I refer to Page 8650 of the record (Volume XII, Page 424)-that there were reasons of principle why you did not become a Party member and that Party membership would not be compatible with your principles?
SCHACHT: That is right.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you also testified-I refer to Page 8692 of the record (Volume XII, Page 455)-that from 1932 to the 30th of January 1933-I am quoting you, "I have not written or spoken a single word publicly for Hitler."
SCHACHT: I think that is right, if you emphasize "publicly."
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You must emphasize "publicly"?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I want yet to ask you about the next thing. You also said: "I have never helped in any way to exert influence in favor of Hitler through discussions with any of the competent gentlemen: Hindenburg, Meissner, et cetera; and I did not participate in any way in the appointment of Hitler to Reich Chancellor." Is that correct?
SCHACHT: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, are there any words that we have to emphasize in that in order to understand it correctly?
SCHACHT: No, in reference to Hitler's becoming Chancellor, please note I said, "competent men."
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I don't just know what you mean by that, but I'll give you a chance to explain. SCHACHT Yes. When I say "competent," I mean those people who could decide as to who was to be Chancellor. Of course, 1 did say that Hitler would be Chancellor and must become Chancellor, and I expressed those convictions in private circles.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you say that in public?
SCHACHT: No, I said that only in a circle of my friends, business acquaintances, and such like.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I want to quote you a statement by Von Papen: "When I was Chancellor of Germany, in 1932, Schacht came to see me in July or August while I was at home. He said, 'here's a very intelligent man.'-It was in the presence of my wife and I have never forgotten it.-He said, 'Give him your position. Give it to Hitler. He is the only man who can save Germany.' " Did you say that or didn't you?
SCHACHT: I do not know whether I said that he was the only man who could save Germany, but I did tell him that Hitler would and must become Chancellor. But that was in August or July of 1932, after the July elections; and it has nothing to do with Hitler's nomination, which did not take place until after the Schleicher Cabinet, about which I have been examined here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now; Dr. Schacht, I just asked you if you had not testified that you had nothing to do with his coming to the Chancellorship and you said...
SCHACHT: That is the truth.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: . . . and it is here said that you asked Von Papen to give the place to him and...
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: . . . and do you contend-and I want you to say anything you want to about this-do you contend that that was not aiding Hitler to the Chancellorship?
SCHACHT: I do not know whether it was aiding Hitler. the course of my examination here, I have been asked whether I had exerted any influence in connection with Hitler's election or his nomination for the Chancellorship in January 1933. I have given the names of Hindenburg, Meissner, and so forth, that is to say, Hindenburg's circle. Since the beginning of November 1932,. Papen was no longer Chancellor and thus he had no influence upon these matters at all. I did not talk to Papen at all during those weeks. On the contrary, after the elections of 1932, I said that it was inevitable that a man who had obtained so many votes in the Reichstag must take over the political lead.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now let me get you correctly. When you saw Hitler was going to win you joined him?
SCHACHT: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I'll just make it clear what you do mean. You did not assist him until he had already accumulated more votes than any other Party in the Reichstag?
SCHACHT: I did not join Hitler when I saw that he would win, but when I had discovered that he had won.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Oh, well, I'll accept the amendment. You have referred to your letter to Hitler on the 29th of August 1932...
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: . . . in which you advised him not to put forward any detailed economic program?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You told him there was no such program on which 14 millions could agree?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that economic policy is not a factor for building up a party?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you added that, "You can always count on me as your reliable assistant"; did you not?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then that was after he had won?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then on the 12th of . . .
SCHACHT: November.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, I just want to refer to that document as EC-456, Exhibit Number USA-773. Now, then, on the 12th of November 1932, you wrote a letter to him, in which you said, among other things, "I have no doubt that the present development of things can only lead to your becoming Chancellor."
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: "It seems as if our attempt to collect a number of signatures from business circles for this purpose is not altogether in vain..."
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were collecting signatures for this purpose?
SCHACHT: Not I, but I participated.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were assisting.
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that was Document Number EC-456. Now, as of November 1932, a document was prepared for a large number of industrialists to sign, urging the selection of Hitler as Chancellor, in substance, was there not?
SCHACHT: I no longer remember the document, but I assume that that is the document.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And men like Schacht, Schroder, and Krupp, and a great number of industrialists signed that document, did they not?
SCHACHT: That is possible, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it was sent to Von Hindenburg?
SCHACHT: I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, the purpose' of it was to aid Hitler in obtaining the Chancellorship?
SCHACHT: That is possible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It is addressed to the Reich President, is it not? Document Number 3901-PS, Exhibit Number USA-837.
SCHACHT: I have not seen it; but it is probably correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not deny that that occurred?
SCHACHT: I assume that it is correct. I have not seen it, but I do not doubt it at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, in November of 1932 you communicated to Hitler the result of your money-raising campaign, did you not?
SCHACHT: I do not know anything about that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I'll remind you from your own interrogation. Well, I'll remind you first, of your testimony, in which you say that it appears that you did not plead for funds but that Goering pleaded for funds; and I ask if you did not, on the 9th of October 1945, give these answers to these questions as to events of February 1933?
SCHACHT: Events of what?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Events of February 1933.
SCHACHT: Yes, thank you very much.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Going back to 1933. This is the question: "Prior to the time that Hitler appointed you as President of the Reichsbank, do you recall a meeting in the home of Goering? "Answer: 'Yes. That was a financial meeting. I have been interrogated about that several times already.' "Question: 'Tell me about it.' "Answer: 'Yes, I will.` Hitler had to go to the elections on 5 March, if you will remember, and for these elections he wanted money for the campaign. He asked me to procure the money and I did. Goering called these men together and I made a speech-not a speech, for Hitler made the speech-then I asked them to write down the amounts and to subscribe for the elections, which they did. They subscribed a total of 3 millions and they allocated the sum among themselves.' "Question: 'Who were the people who made up that subscription list?' "Answer: 'I think that all of them were bankers and industrialists. They represented the chemical industry, iron industry, textile industry, all of them.' "Question: 'Representatives of all the industries?' "Answer: 'All of them; all of the big industries.' "Question: 'Do you recall any of their names?' "Answer: 'Oh certainly; Krupp was there-the old gentleman, Gustav. He arose from his seat and thanked Hitler and was very enthusiastic about him at the time. And then there was Schnitaler-I think it was he-and Vogler for the United Steel Works."' Did you give that testimony?
SCHACHT: Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, at that meeting you have referred to Document Number D-203, which is a record of the meeting-at that meeting Goering said this in substance, did he not? "The sacrifices which are required would be so much easier for industry to bear if it knew that the election of 5 March would surely be the last one for the next 10 years, probably even for the next 100 years." You heard that, did you not?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now yesterday or the day before you were interrogated about your support and about the tribute that Goebbels paid to you; and you said to the Court, "It is not my fault if Goebbels made a mistake." Do you recall that?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I ask you, if testifying about Dr. Goebbels you did not say this to the interrogator of the United States, on the 17th day of October 1945, Exhibit Number USA-616 (Document Number 3729-PS)? "Question: 'When did you become interested in becoming a co-worker of Hitler?' "Answer: 'I should say in the years of 1931, 1932.' "Question: 'And that was when you saw that he had a mass movement that was likely to take power?' "Answer: 'Quite right; it was growing continually.' "Question: 'And did you publicly record your support for Hitler in those years?' "Answer: 'I think I made a statement in December 1930 once at the Bavarian People's Party, upon coming back from America. I said that there was a choice for any future Government, either to hold against 25 percent socialists, or against 20 percent National Socialists.' "Question: 'But what I mean-to make it very brief indeed- did you lend the prestige of your name to help Hitler come to power?' "Answer: 'I stated publicly that I expected Hitler to come into power for the first time that I remember in November 1932.' "Question: 'And you know, or perhaps you don't, that Goebbels in his diary, records with great affection...' "Answer: 'Yes.' ,' "Question: '. . . the help that you gave him at that time?' "Answer: 'Yes, I know that.' "Question: 'November 1932?' "Answer: 'You say the book is called From the Kaiserhof to the Reich Chancellery?' "Question: 'That's right; you have read that?' "Answer: 'Yes.' "Question: 'And you don't deny that Goebbels was right?' "Answer: 'I think his impression was that he was correct at that time.' " Did you give that testimony?
SCHACHT: Yes. I never doubted that Goebbels was under this impression; I merely said that he was mistaken.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you didn't-Well, I won't bother. Now, you made some extensive quotations from Ambassador Dodd yesterday, the day before. Did you not?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And let's have this understood: Ambassador Dodd was consistently and at all times opposed to the entire Nazi outfit, wasn't he?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you got no encouragement from him to be in this outfit?
SCHACHT: Oh, no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you testified, as I understood you, that Ambassador Dodd invited you to go to the United States of America and you say-I am quoting from Page 8670 of the record (Volume XII, Page 439): "At that time, 1937, he called on me and urged me to go with him, or follow him as soon as possible, and change my residence to America. He said that I would find a very pleasant welcome in America. I believe he never would have said that to me if he had not had a friendly feeling towards me." You said that to the Tribunal?
SCHACHT: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I think you intended to convey to the Tribunal the impression that Ambassador Dodd had great confidence in you and great friendship for you?
SCHACHT: I had that impression.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Have you read his entire diary, or did you confine yourself to reading extracts?
SCHACHT: Yes. I also know of the passage where he said, "You would make a very bad American," or something like that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, yes, you didn't mention that to the Tribunal.
SCHACHT: I think that would be better for the Prosecution.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we are not disappointing you then. Are you not familiar with his entry under the date of December 21, 1937, where he speaks of the luncheon at which you were present? "Schacht spoke of the defeat of Germany in 1918 as wholly due to Woodrow Wilson's bringing America into the World War. But I said Wilson's Fourteen Points were the one great promise of international peace and co-operation, and every country on both sides had helped to defeat his purpose. Don't you think Wilson, 50 years from now, will be regarded as one of the greatest presidents the United States has ever had? He evaded an answer but turned his attention to the Japanese-Chinese war and opposed Germany's alliance to Japan. Then he showed the true German attitude, quoting, 'If the United States would stop the Japanese War and leave Germany to have her way in Europe, we would have world peace.' "
SCHACHT: What is the question?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you make those statements?
SCHACHT: I do not know whether I said it, but even today it seems an extremely reasonable statement. I am of the opinion that it was correct with one exception, I believe...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, now let's get this straight. As I understand you correctly, you can have peace, world peace, if Germany was left to have her way in Europe? SCHACHT'. Yes. May I say that there were various opinions about the path Germany was to take; mine was a peaceful one.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, he goes on: "I did not comment, and others also failed to make remarks. Schacht meant what the Army Chiefs of 1914 meant when they invaded Belgium, expecting to conquer France in 6 weeks, namely; domination and annexation of neighboring little countries, especially north and east."
SCHACHT: Am I to reply?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you say that?
SCHACHT: No, no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was that what Dodd said about your conversation?
SCHACHT: But I did not say that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you?
SCHACHT: No, may I...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the impression?
SCHACHT: No, may I answer please?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask you this question: What is the impression received over the course of his acquaintance with you by a man whom you describe as being a decent fellow and a friend of yours?
SCHACHT: May I answer that I have already stated that Mr. Dodd was the victim of many misconceptions. In this case, too, he does not say that I said it; he says, "Schacht meant." That was his opinion which he attributed to me. I never said that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I so understood it; but it was the estimate of a friendly observer' I take it from you.
SCHACHT: A friendly observer who continually misunderstood; Ambassador Henderson has proved that in his book.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He may have misunderstood Henderson; but there is never any doubt that he understood the Nazi danger from the beginning, is there?
SCHACHT: Yes; but he misunderstood my attitude.