dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you had a translation in German of nearly every document, if not every document. And you have also been given every opportunity to consider documents when they have been translated into German. And that opportunity will be given to you hereafter and if there are any documents which are being used in cross-examination now which are not in German, they will be translated into German, and you will have them then. But once the witness is under cross-examination, the documents may be used. If you want to re-examine upon the documents after you have them in German, you will be able to do so.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we Defense Counsel also desire to further the proceedings and not to delay them. But it does not help me at all if, in a week or two, when I shall finally have been able to examine the documents thrown today on the table, I must turn to you, Mr. President, with the request to be permitted to question the witness again. We are glad once we are through with the examination of the witnesses. But we simply cannot follow Mr. Dodd's method. I cannot follow, and the defendant cannot either. One cannot expect the defendant to explain an isolated sentence taken out of the context, if he had no chance to examine the document as a whole.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd.
MR. DODD: May I proceed to examine on the document?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, have you got any objection to Dr. Sauter's seeing the document?
MR. DODD: Yes, indeed I have. I think it would be a new rule. Ever since this Defense opened, we have presented and confronted documents for the purpose of impeaching the credibility of various witnesses, and used these documents, and it goes to the very foundation of cross-examination. If we have to turn such documents over to the Defense before we cross-examine, the whole purpose of crossexamination is gone.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, if you are putting the document in and putting it to the witness as a document, then his counsel is entitled, I should have thought, to have it at the same moment.
MR. DODD: We are perfectly willing to give him a German copy right now. It is here for him, if he wants to have it, and we were ready with it when we came in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: In German?
MR. DODD: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the best thing will be for us to adjourn now, and then you will hand to Dr. Sauter when you use the document a translation of it in German.
MR. DODD: Yes; tomorrow morning, when we use it.
THE PRESIDENT: When you use it.
MR. DODD: Very well, Sir. [The Tribunal adjourned until 7 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]
MR. DODD: Witness, you had a conference with Dr. Sauter last night after we recessed Court, did you not, for about an hour?
FUNK: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now we were talking yesterday, when the Tribunal rose, about the gold deposits in the Reichsbank, and I had asked you when you started to do business with the SS, and as I recall, you said you did not do any business with the SS. And then we went along a little further and you did say that the SS did deposit some materials, some property belonging to people in concentration camps. Do I properly understand your testimony to have been, in substance, as I have stated it?
FUNK: No. I said that Herr Puhl-I do not remember in what year-told me one day that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS and he also told me-and he said it somewhat ironically-it would be better that we should not try to ascertain what this deposit was. As I said yesterday, it was impossible in any case to ascertain what was deposited. When something was deposited, the Reichsbank had no right to look into it to see of what it consisted. Only later, when Herr Publ made another report to me, did I realize that when-he used the word "deposit" it was a wrong term; it was not a deposit but it was a delivery of gold. There is of course a great difference. I personally assumed that it concerned a gold deposit, that this gold consisted of gold coins or other foreign currency or small bars of gold or something similar, which had been brought in from the inmates of the concentration camps-everybody in Germany had to hand these things over-and that it was being handed to the Reichsbank, which would use it. Since you mentioned this matter, I remember another fact of which I was not conscious until now. I was asked about it during my interrogation, and during this interrogation I could not say "yes" to it because at that time I did not remember it. I was asked during my interrogation whether I had the agreement of the Reichsfuehrer that the gold which was delivered to the Reichsbank should be utilized by the Reichsbank. I said I did not remember. However, if Herr Puhl makes such a statement under oath, I will not and cannot dispute it. It is evident that if gold were delivered which should come to the Reichsbank, then the Reichsbank had the right to utilize such gold. I certainly never spoke more than twice or at most three times to Herr Puhl about this matter. What these deposits or these deliveries consisted of and what was. done with these deliveries, how they were utilized, I do not know. Herr Puhl never informed me about that either.
MR.DODD: Well now, let us see. You were not ordinarily in the habit, in the Reichsbank, of accepting jewels, monocles, spectacles, watches, cigarette cases, pearls, diamonds, gold dentures, were you? You ordinarily accepted that sort of material for deposit in your bank?
FUNK: No; there could be no question, in my opinion, that the bank had no right to do that, because these things were supposed to be delivered to an entirely different place. If I am correctly informed about the legal position, these things were supposed to be delivered to the Reich Office for Precious Metals and not to the Reichsbank. Diamonds, jewels, and precious stones were not the concern of the Reichsbank because it was not a place of sale for these things. And in my opinion, if the Reichsbank did that, then it was unlawful.
MR.DODD: That is exactly right.
FUNK: If that happened, then the Reichsbank committed an illegal act. The Reichsbank was not authorized to do that.
MR. DODD: And is it your statement that if it was done you did not know anything about it?
FUNK: No.
MR. DODD: You did not know?
FUNK: No.
MR.DODD: You were frequently in the vaults of the Reichs bank, were you not? As a matter of fact you liked to take visitors through there. I say, you were frequently in the vaults of the bank yourself?
FUNK: Yes, I was, where the gold bars were kept.
MR.DODD: I will come to the gold bars in a minute. I just want to establish that you were in the vaults frequently, and your answer, as I understand it, is "yes" that you were?
FUNK: It was the usual thing if someone came to visit us, particularly foreign visitors, to show them the rooms where the gold was kept and we always showed them the gold bars and there was always the usual joke as to whether one could lift a gold bar or not. But I never saw anything else there except gold bars.
MR. DODD: How heavy were these gold bars that you had in the vaults?
FUNK: They were the usual gold bars which were used in commerce between banks. I think they varied in weight. I think the gold bars weighed about 20 kilograms. Of course, you can figure it out. If one...
MR.DODD: That is all right. That is satisfactory. When you were in the vaults you never saw any of these materials that I mentioned a few minutes ago-jewels, cigarette cases, watches, and all that business?
FUNK: Never. I was in the vaults at the most four or five times and then only to show this very interesting spectacle to visitors.
MR. DODD: Only four or five times from 1941 to 1945?
FUNK: I assume so. It was not more often. I only went down there with visitors, particularly foreign visitors.
MR.DODD: Are you telling the Tribunal that as head of the Reichsbank you never made an inspection, so to speak, of the vaults, never took a look at the collateral? Did you not ever make an inspection before you made your certifications as to what was on hand? Certainly every responsible banker does that regularly, does he not? What is your answer?
FUNK: No, never. The business of the Reichsbank was not conducted by the President. It was conducted by the Directorate. I never bothered about individual transactions, not even gold transactions, or even about slight variations in the individual gold reserves, et cetera. If large deliveries of gold were expected, the Directorate reported to me. The Directorate conducted the business, and I believe the detailed transactions were probably known only to the director responsible for that particular department.
MR. DODD: Now, did you ever do any business with pawnshops?
FUNK: With what?
MR. DODD: Pawnshops. Do you not know what a pawnshop is? There must be a German word for that.
FUNK: Pfandleihe.
MR. DODD: Whatever it is, you know what they are, do you not?
FUNK: Where you pawn something.
MR. DODD: Yes.
FUNK: No, I never did any...
MR. DODD: All right, we will get to that a little later too. Right now, since you do not seem to recall that you ever had any or saw any such materials as I have described in your vaults, I ask that we have an opportunity to show you a film which was taken of some materials in your vaults when the Allied Forces arrived there. [Turning to the President.7 I would ask, Mr. President, that the defendant be permitted to come down, where he can watch the film, so that his memory will be properly refreshed.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may have him brought down. [Moving pictures were then shown.7
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, at some stage, I take it, you will offer evidence as to where that film was made.
MR. FUNK: DODD: Yes, I will. There will be an affidavit as to the circumstances under which the film was made, who was present, and why; but, for the information of the Tribunal, it was taken in Frankfurt when the Allied Forces captured that city and went into the Reichsbank vaults. . [Turning to the defendant.7 Now, Witness, having seen these pictures of materials that were found in your Reichsbank vaults a year ago, or a little earlier than a year ago, you now recall that you did have such material on hand over a period of 4 or 5 years, 3 or 4 years, 3 years-I think actually a little longer than 3 years? I have never seen anything of this sort. I also have the impression that a large part of these things which were shown in the film came from deposits, because people, thousands of them, had locked deposits which they delivered to the Reichsbank, in which they put their jewels and other valuables, as we have just seen. Probably some were hidden valuables, which they should have given up, such as foreign money, foreign exchange, gold coins, et cetera. As far as I know we had thousands of closed deposits into which the Reichsbank could not look. I never saw a single item such as these shown in the film, and I cannot imagine where these things came from, to whom they belonged, and to what use they were put.
MR.DODD: Well, that is an interesting answer. I asked you yesterday, and I ask you again now, did you ever hear of anybody depositing his gold dentures in a bank for safekeeping? [There was no response.7 You saw that film, and you saw the gold bridgework, or mouthplates, did you not, and the other dental work? Certainly nobody ever deposited that with a bank. Is that not a fact?
FUNK: As far as the teeth are concerned, this is a special case. Where these teeth came from I do not know. It was not reported to me, nor do I know what was done with those teeth. I am convinced that items of this sort, when they were delivered to the Reichsbank, had to be turned over to the Office for Precious Metals, for the Reichsbank was not a place where gold was worked. Neither do I know whether the Reichsbank even had the technical facilities to work this metal. I do not know about that.
MR. DODD: And not only did people not deposit gold teeth, but they never deposited eyeglass rims, did they, such as you saw in the picture?
FUNK: That is right. These things are, of course, no regular deposits. That goes without saying.
MR. DODD: And you saw there were some objects that obviously were in the process of being melted down. Practically the last scene in that film showed something that looked as if it had been in the process of being melted, did it not? You saw it? Well, will you answer me, please, "yes" or "no"? Did you see it?
FUNK: I cannot say that exactly. I do not know whether they were melting it down. I have no knowledge of these technical matters. To be sure, now I see quite clearly what was not known to me until now, that the Reichsbank did the technical work of melting down gold articles.
MR. DODD: Well, now, let us see what your assistant, Mr. Puhl, says about that, the man who you told us yesterday was a credible gentleman, and whom you asked the Tribunal to call as a witness on your behalf. I am holding in my hand an affidavit executed by him on the 3rd day of May 1946 at Baden Baden, Germany. "Emil Puhl, being duly sworn, deposes and says: "1. My name is Emil Puhl. I was born on 28 August 1889 in Berlin, Germany. I was appointed a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank in 1935 and Vice President of the Reichsbank in 1939, and served in these positions continuously until the surrender of Germany. "2. In the summer of 1942 Walter Funk, President of the Reichsbank and Reich Minister of Economics, had a conversation with me and later with Mr. Friedrich Wilhelm, who was a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank. Funk told me that he had arranged with Reichsfuehrer Himmler to have the Reichsbank receive in safe custody gold and jewels for the SS. Funk directed that I should work out the arrangements with Pohl, who, as head of the economic section of the SS, administered the economic side of the concentration camps. "3. I asked Funk what the source was of the gold, jewels, banknotes, and other articles to be delivered by the SS. Funk replied that it was confiscated property from the Eastern Occupied Territories, and that I should ask no further questions. I protested against the Reichsbank handling this material. Funk stated that we were to go ahead with the arrangements for handling the material, and that we were to keep the matter absolutely secret. "a. I then made the necessary arrangements with one of the responsible officials in charge of the cash and safes departments for receiving the material, and reported the matter to the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank at its next meeting. On the same day Pohl, of the economic section of the SS, telephoned me and asked if I had been advised of the matter. I said I would not discuss it by telephone.
MR. DODD: He then came to flee me and reported that the SS had some jewelry for delivery to the Reichsbank for safekeeping. I arranged with him for delivery and from then on deliveries were made from time to time, from August 1942 throughout the following years. "5. The material deposited by the SS included jewelry, watches, eyeglass frames, dental gold, and other gold articles in great abundance, taken by the SS from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons. This was brought to our knowledge by SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash and who were helped in this by the Reichsbank personnel with Funk's approval and knowledge. In addition to jewels and gold and other such items, the SS also delivered bank notes, foreign currency, and securities to the Reichsbank to be handled by the usual legal procedure established for such items. As far as the jewelry and gold were concerned, Funk told me that Himmler and Von Krosigk, the Reich Minister of Finance, had reached an agreement according to which the gold and similar articles were on deposit for the account of the State and that the proceeds resulting from the sale thereof would be credited to the Reich Treasury. "6. From time to time, in the course of my duties, I visited the vaults of the Reichsbank and observed what was in storage. Funk also visited the vaults from time to time. "7. The Golddiskontobank, at the direction of Funk, also established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories run by the SS. "I am conversant with the English language and declare that the statements made herein are true to the best of my knowledge and belief." Document Number 3944-PS; it is signed by Emil Puhl and duly witnessed. Mr. President, I would like to offer this affidavit as Exhibit USA-846 and the film as Exhibit USA-845.
MR. DODD: [Turning to the defendant.7 Now, Witness, having heard this affidavit from your close associate and your brother director of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank, and the man who, you admitted yesterday was a credible and truthful man, what do you now say to this Tribunal about your knowledge of what was going on between your bank and the SS? FUNK I declare that this affidavit by Herr Puhl is not true. I spoke to Herr Puhl about the entire matter of these gold deposits, as I have repeatedly stated, three times at most, but I believe it was only twice. I never exchanged a word with Herr Puhl regarding precious stones and jewelry. It is incredible to me that a man who most certainly also carried out certain functions in his agreements with the SS-that is, with Herr Pohl-now tries to put the blame on me. On no account will I take this responsibility and I request that Herr Puhl be called here, and that in my presence he may declare in all detail when, where, and how he has spoken to me about these different items, and to what extent I told him what to do. I repeat my statement that I knew nothing about jewelry and other deliveries from concentration camps, and that I have never spoken to Herr Puhl about these things. I can only say again what I said at the beginning, that Herr Puhl once told me that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS. I remember it now, it had escaped me as I did not pay too much attention to the entire matter. I remember that, urged by him, I spoke to the Reichsfuehrer about whether the Reichsbank could utilize these items. The Reichsfuehrer said, "Yes." But at no time did I speak to the Reichsfuehrer about jewelry and precious stones and watches and such things. I spoke only of gold. Concerning what Puhl states about a financing scheme-I believe that goes back a number of years-I know Herr Puhl came to me one day and said that he was asked to give a credit for certain factories of the SS and somebody was negotiating with him about the matter. I asked him, "Is this credit secure?
MR. DODD: Do we get interest?" He said, "Yes, up till now they have had a credit from the Dresdner Bank and it must now be repaid." I said, "Very well, do that." After that I never heard anything more about this matter. It is news to me that this credit was so large, that it was made by the Golddiskontobank. I do not remember it, but it is entirely possible. However, I never heard any more about this credit, which Herr Puhl had given to certain factories. He always spoke about factories, about businesses; it was a bank credit which had previously been given by a private bank. I remember I asked him once, "Has this credit been repaid?" That was some considerable time later. He said, "No, it has not been repaid yet." That is all I know about these matters.
MR.DODD: All right. Now, what do you know about this-one part of the affidavit you have not covered-what do you know about the last part that says you established a revolving fund for the SS for the building of factories near the concentration camps? Do you remember that? I read it to you. Puhl says, "The Reichsbank, at the direction of Funk, established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories run by the SS." Do you admit that you did that?
FUNK: Yes, that is what I just mentioned; that Herr Puhl told me one day, I believe in 1939 or 1940, that some gentlemen from the economic section of the SS had spoken to him regarding a credit, which until that time had been granted by the Dresdner Bank and which they would now like to have from the Reichsbank. I asked Herr Puhl, "Will we get interest; is the credit secure?" He said, "Yes." So I said, "Give them this credit," and later on I said just what I mentioned above. That is all I know about the matter. I know nothing more.
MR. DODD: Now, you also got a fee for handling these materials that you saw in the film, did you not, from the SS? The bank was paid for carrying on its part of this program?
FUNK: I did not understand that.
MR. DODD: I say, is it not a fact that you received payment from the SS over this period of more than 3 years for handling these materials which they turned over to you?
FUNK: I do not know about that.
MR. DODD: Well, you would know, would you not, as President of the bank, if you did receive payment? How could you help knowing?
FUNK: These were probably such small payments that no one ever reported them to me. I do not know anything about any payment from the SS.
MR.DODD: What would you say if I tell you that Herr Puhl said that the bank did receive payment during these years, and that there were altogether some 77 shipments of materials such as you saw here this morning? Do you say that is untrue, or do you agree with it?
FUNK: That might be quite true, but I was never informed about these things. I know nothing about it.
MR. DODD: Is it conceivable that you, as President of the Reichsbank, could not know about 77 such shipments and about a transaction that you were being paid to handle? Do you think that is a likely story?
FUNK: If the Board of Directors did not report to me about these things, I cannot have known about them, and I declare again quite definitely that I was not informed about these details. On one occasion I was told about a gold deposit of the SS which was brought to us. Later on it transpired that it was a delivery from the SS. And then I knew about this credit transaction. That is all I know about these matters.
MR. DODD: Now, let me tell you something that may help you a little bit. As a matter of fact, your bank sent memoranda to people concerning this material from time to time, and I think you know about it, do you not? You made up memoranda stating what you had on hand and whom you were transferring it to. Are you familiar with any such memoranda?
FUNK: No.
MR. DODD: Well, then you had better take a look at Document Number 3948-PS, Exhibit USA-847, and see if it refreshes your memory. That is 3948-PS. [The document was handed to the defendant.] - Now, this document is a memorandum apparently addressed to the Municipal Pawn Brokerage in Berlin, and it is dated 15 September 1942. Now, I am not going to read all of it, although it is a very interesting document, but as you can see, the memorandum says, "We submit to you the following valuables with the request for the best possible utilization." Then you list 247 platinum and silver rings, 154 gold watches, 207 earrings, 1,601 gold earrings, 13 brooches with stones-I am just skipping through; I am not reading all of them-324 silver wrist watches, 12 silver candle sticks, goblets, spoons, forks, and knives, and then, if you follow down here quite a way, diverse pieces of jewelry and watch casings, 187 pearls, four stones said to be diamonds. And that is signed "Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse" and the signature is illegible. Perhaps, if you look at the original, you might tell us who signed it.
FUNK: No, I do not know who signed it.
MR.DODD: You have the original?
FUNK: I do not know.
MR.DODD: Well, look at the signature there and see if you recognize it as the signature of one of your workers.
FUNK: It says-somebody from our cashier's office signed it. I do not know the signature.
MR. DODD: Somebody from your bank, was it not?
FUNK: Yes, from the cashier's department. I do not know the signature.