dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
TBE PRESIDENT: It is not necessary to argue the point. Don't you think that you can make your re-examination shorter, in view of the fact that it is all given before the Commission which the Tribunal has before it?
HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, My Lord. [Turning to the witness.] What percentage of members, or rather of collaborators and of those who were charged with the research projects for the Ahnenerbe, belonged to the SS?
SIEVERS: About one-half.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were the rest Party members?
SIEVERS: That was not a condition.
HERR PELCKMANN: Then were there collaborators who were nonpolitical?
SIEVERS: There were even some who were rejected by the Party and by the State for political reasons.
BERR PELCKMANN: Was Professor Seibt, a Norwegian, one of the members who worked there?
SIEVERS: Yes, Professor Seibt received a research commission from the "Ahnenerbe," after I had effected his release from a concentration camp.
HERR PELCKMANN: I have before me the original of your diary, parts of which were quoted to you in your cross-examination. 330 pages of this diary deal with the time on which you were questioned. The extracts, the parts which were presented to you, number only three pages. In view of this comparison, can you say that the matters which were discussed here constitute only a very small fraction of the work carried on by the "Ahnenerbe"? Please be very brief.
SIEVERS: Yes, I can confirm that, and therefore I am bent upon making my statement in this connection. I did not preserve my notes for the purpose of concealing things which should be truthfully clarified in the general interests of all.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, if fragments of this diary are presented to you as they were presented to you in your cross-examination, are you in a position to give exhaustive and correct explanations without going into the context and into the whole diary?
SIEVERS: This is quite impossible because the size of the diary already shows the considerable scope of my main work, and the comparative insignificance of the parts discussed here. And considering the period of time over which these matters extend, it is simply impossible to reconstruct them out of their context and to make complete and truthful statements on them. In my previous interrogations I again and again pointed this out, and asked for my secret notes and data so that I could give comprehensive accounts. For I myself, in view of my political attitude, was eager to uncover the wrongs done, and to aid in punishing them. But my requests were always in vain and my written application of 20 December remained unanswered. Relevant evidence has thus been passed over.
HERR PELCKMANN: That is sufficient, Witness. I should like to mention just one example of the completely wrong picture which can result if the witness is limited to fragments of his diary. This is the entry on Page 103, Friday, 14 April, 1300 hours. "Station Rascher: stage of work, future work, orders for provisional carrying on Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner initiated." The sentences which follow are not included in the extract. Now, Witness, would you read those sentences and comment on them? Does this entry show, as the Prosecution maintains, that Dr. Plotner continued Rascher's work?
SIEVERS: The entry shows clearly that Dr. Plotner did not continue Dr. Rascher's experiments on human beings. On the basis of these notes I could now develop a comprehensive picture, but the time at my disposal is too short.
PERR PELCKMANN: Please make your comments.
SIEVERS: In a dramatic way Dr. Plotner described ...
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want drama, we want the entry.
HERR PELCKMANN: Unfortunately I cannot read it, My Lord, because there is only one copy of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Has not the witness got the document before him? Why can't he read it then?
SIEVERS: Yes, I shall read it. "Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner initiated.... Most important task: Polygal tests."-That was the coagulating agent.
HERR PELCKMANN: Please give your comments when you have read the entry.
SIEVERS: "Order for carrying on of work Putzengruber. Police Sergeant Neff reports that production of Polygal at Schlachters is assured for 3 months. Feix reports on production experience and submits first results from Schlachters. In Schlachters the accounting system is to be set up by Gau economic adviser. Purchase of machines."
HERR PELCKMANN: That means then that Dr. Plotner was initiated ...
SIEVERS: Initiated into all the administrative and economic matters connected with the manufacture of Polygal.
HERR PELCKMANN: Now you were going to describe what happened at that time.
SIEVERS: Yes. Dr. Rascher had begun the development of Polygal, but the medicament did not come up to expectations. Dr. Plotner, who ...
THE PRESIDENT: The question that you put to him was: "Does not this entry show that Dr. Plotner did not continue the investigations of Dr. Rascher?" How does the entry show it? He did not tell us how the entry shows it.
HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, I did not, as far as I remember, put the question in that way.
TH E PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann ...
HERR PELCKMANN: I wanted to know something quite different from this witness. May I please clarify this point after the witness has read these remarks and his memory has been refreshed?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, in my recollection and in the recollection of the other members of the Tribunal the question you put was: "Does not this entry in your diary show that Dr. Plotner did not carry on the work of Dr. Rascher?" That was the question which you put. And we want an answer to it and no other answer.
HERR PELCKMANN: Then I did not express myself correctly, Your Lordship. [Turning to the witness.] I wanted to know if now, after reading this entry, your memory was refreshed as to the happenings at that time?
SIEVERS: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Then please describe them.
SIEVERS: The activities of the institute ...
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Dr. Pelckmann, in the first place you realize, or you should realize, that the object of reexamination is to make clear or to contradict anything which has been put in cross-examination, and that is the only purpose of re-examination. In the second place, the Tribunal does not assume from the fact that the witness has been cross-examined to show that certain brutal and illegal experiments were made by this institution, that the institution did nothing else, and we do not propose to sit here for a prolonged time to hear everything else that this institution did. The only object of your redirect examination should be to contradict the fact that illegal experiments were made, or to clear up any doubts which may arise upon those illegal experiments, not to show us that they did other things.
HERR PELCKALANN: Witness, were further inhuman experiments carried out after Rascher's arrest, as far as you know?
SIEVERS: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: No?
SIEVERS: No. Dr. Plotner, as I have already testified, expressly refused to carry them out.
HERR PELCKMANN: ' Did you, after that time, hear of any other inhuman experiments?
SIEVERS: No, not in connection with the Institute of Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes, into which I had insight.
HERR PELCKMANN: You say that you had insight into the Institute of Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes. What personalities of the SS had insight into these experiments?
SIEVERS: Only those who had been charged with these matters by Himmler personally, and there were very few ...
HERR PELCKMANN: How many approximately? Five or ten more or less do not matter.
SIEVERS: At a high estimate, 10 to 20.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were these directives secret or strictly secret? Did they fall into the category "Secret?' or "Top Secret"?
SIEVERS: Yes, they fell into these two top secret categories.
HERR PELCKMANN: Can you therefore from your own knowledge say whether you consider it possible that the mass of the SS men knew about these things?
SIEVERS: It is quite impossible that they knew or could have known about these things.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you recall that Freiherr von Eberstein was quite indignant when he learned of Rascher's experiments and horrified that anything like that could happen? Do you have any personal recollection of that?.
SIEVERS: Yes, because I had to report to him personally in this matter. He was extremely angry during this conversation and spoke about the things which he had heard in connection with the arrest of Rascher, and which shocked me, too, very deeply. In his excitement he began to accuse me and was then very astonished to hear that Himmler alone had been in closest personal connection with Rascher and that all instructions had come directly from Himmler.
HERR PELCKMANN: That is sufficient. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, can you conclude your ... the observation you want to make, in 5 minutes?
SIEVERS: Yes, not longer.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on then.
SIEVERS: In the cross-examination I was accused of course of having had no personal misgivings whatsoever regarding these experiments on human beings. I . must contradict this emphatically. My conflict of conscience was very great and it was not appeased by the assurances which, as I mentioned earlier, I had received from Himmler. I therefore spoke with the leader of our secret organization, and we came to the conclusion that further resistance would-in the first place-have cost me my head, since an open demonstration would have been the only choice left to us, and secondly, that the people affected by the experiments would not in any way have been protected or helped thereby. These experiments would have been carried through in one way or another in any event. But wherever possible I did secretly what no other person would have done, or dared to do. I prevented, through silent sabotage, whatever could possibly be prevented. My repeated offers to elaborate on this point with the help of my secret data and records, which go into several hundred pages, as Dr. Pelckmann has just shown, were in vain. Even now, time does not permit me to give a more comprehensive picture of the background of events and of the events themselves. I personally rejected these experiments and did not support them. I played a role similar to that of a syndic at a university, who must be at the disposal of all professors and heads of institutes in all financial, economic, and administrative affairs. Therefore, I repudiate doubts cast on my credibility and my personal attitude. The documents submitted show exactly what I said about these matters in my interrogations before the Commission, which Dr. Pelckmann again mentioned just now. If my credibility is doubted with regard to my alleged illegal activities, then the leader of the secret organization, Dr. Hielseher, who is now in Nuremberg, is at the Tribunal's disposal in this matter. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken.]
MAJOR JONES: Your Lordship, I have three brief documents to put in on the SS case. The first is the Document 4043-PS, which I hand in on behalf of the Polish Delegation; it will be GB-606. It sets out the names of the 846 Polish priests and monks of the Polish clergy murdered at Dachau Concentration Camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that a State report or what?
MAJOR JONES: It is an affidavit by a Polish priest, attaching the names of the priests to 'his statements; the names appeared in a Polish publication, a Polish newspaper. I see that it is a statement by the undersigned Roman Catholic priest, giving the following statement on oath. I am wrong in saying that it is a statement on oath; but it does attach a list of the priests from a publication of the section "Press and Culture" which was published in the Catholic weekly Polska Wierna. If the Tribunal is uneasy about the document, I shan't press it. I am asked by the Polish Delegation to submit it. If Your Lordship pleases, the Document Number 007, which will be GB-592, in place of the last document, that is an order from Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Chief for the Ukraine in Kiev, dated 7 September 1943. It reads: "Dear Prutzmann, General of the Infantry Staff has special orders with regard to the Donets area. Get in 'touch with him immediately. I order you to co-operate as much as you can. The aim to be achieved is that when areas in the Ukraine are evacuated, not a human being, not a single head of cattle, not a hundredweight of cereals and not a railway line remain behind; that not a house remain standing; not' a mine which will not be unworkable for years to come; not a well which is not poisoned. The enemy must really find completely burnt and destroyed land. Discuss these things with Staff straight away and do your absolute best. Heil Hitler, Yours," signed, "Himmler." There is a note attached to it: "SS Obergruppenfuehrer Berger has received the copy with the request that the Reich Minister for the East be informed." There are copies to the chief of the Regular Police, chief of the Security Police and SD, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Berger, chief of the partisan-combating units, copies sent with a request that they be noted. Finally, the Document Number 022 refers to instructions of Himmler.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was the Reich Minister at the time?
MAJOR JONES: As I understand it, My Lord, it was Rosenberg. Then, finally, there is a Document Number 022, which will be GB-593. That is an instruction of Himmler dated 10 July 1943, to the chief of units for combating partisans, the higher SS and Police chiefs in the Ukraine, higher SS and Police chiefs in Russia, central sector. The first paragraph: "The Fi1hrer has decided that the whole population has to be evacuated from partisan-ridden territories of the northern Ukraine and of the central Russian sector. "2. The whole ma le population fit for work will be directed to the Reich Commissioner for the Allocation of Labor according to regulations which are yet to be laid down, but under the conditions of prisoners of war. "3. The female population will be directed to the Reich Commissioner for the Allocation of Labor for work in the Reich. "4. Part of the female population and all children who have no parents will be'-sent to our collecting points. "5. The evacuated territories are to be taken over and run by the Higher SS and Police Leaders, as much as possible in accordance with an arrangement still to be made with the Reich Minister of Food and with the Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. They are to be planted partly with Kok-Sagys and as far as possible agricultural use is to be made of them. The camps for children are to be established on the edge of these territories in order that the children may be available as labor for the cultivation of Kok-Sagys and for agriculture. "Final proposals are to be submitted to me as soon as possible." Signed, "H. Himmler." There are the names of Berger and Backe below.
HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, may I put a formal ...
THE PRESIDENT: Just one minute.... Yes, Dr. Pelckmann.
HERR PELCKMANN: May I put a formal question with regard to the proceedings? The witness is still in the court-room: Are these documents to be submitted to him?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has some questions to put to the witness.
HERR PELCKMANN: If these documents are not put to the witness, then I should like to object to their being used, for the reasons given before that the submission of evidence by the Prosecution is closed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already ruled that new documents may be put in in this way.
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): Mr. President, may I be permitted to put one question to this witness to clarify a name which he used? [Turning to the witness.] Witness, you mentioned the Institute for Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes. Is that the full name of the institute? Will you give the full name?
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat your answer.
SIEVERS: Institute for Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes of the Waffen-SS and Police.
DR-LATERNSER: Thank you.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Witness, you said that the Luftwaffe contacted Himmler for getting inmates from the concentration camps. Who in the Luftwaffe made that contact?
SIEVERS: I did not say that the Luftwaffe contacted concentration camps on Himmler's orders.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Wait, Witness, wait, listen to the question. I didn't suggest that you said that. I said that you said that someone in the Luftwaffe had made a contact with Himmler in order to get inmates from the concentration camps. Did you say that?
SIEVERS: No, I didn't say that either. But Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Physician of the SS, informed me that the Luftwaffe-I do not know which department of it-had applied for the sea water experiments to be carried out and had asked that detainees be made available for that purpose.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You mentioned the name of General Milch in your testimony. What connection, if any, did General Milch have with any of these experiments?
SIEVERS: Only with the high-altitude and the freezing experiments which were started in 1941 and carried out by medical officers of the Luftwaffe, that is, by Professor Holzl6hner, by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher, by Stabsarzt Dr. Finke, and by a third gentleman of the Aeronautical Research Institute at Adlershof, whose name I have forgotten.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And what connection did General Milch have with these experiments? Did he make the arrangements for them?
SIEVERS: No, as far as I know the technical arrangements were made by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What connection did General Milch have with this matter? Did he contact Himmler?
SIEVERS: That is apparent, from the exchange of letters between Field Marshal Milch and Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, which were shown to me here in previous interrogations.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You then have no other knowledge about General Milch except from the correspondence that has been submitted?
SIEVERS: No, I do not know more than that.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): In how many camps besides Dachau were there experiment stations or stations for biological research?
SIEVERS: That I cannot say, because I only know of the experiments of Rascher and Hirt, and no others, that is, experiments which were conducted in the field of the Reich Physician SS. Of these nothing could be learned, because they too ...
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You don't know?
SIEVERS: No.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): One last question. You said that after Dr. Rascher's arrest there were no more illegal experiments that were connected with the institute. Do you know of any others that were not connected with the institute?
SIEVERS: That is connected with the previous question. One did hear, for instance, of the work of Professor Schilling; but I never became acquainted with it in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: May it please the Tribunal, during the examination of the witness, Dr. .
THE PRESIDENT: You are not wanting me to keep the witness, are you?
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: No, Sir. During the examination of the witness, Dr. Best, the Tribunal kindly agreed to permit the Prosecution to introduce another document, which at that time was not available, and with the permission of the Tribunal, at this time I should like to offer. it. The document is 4051-PS and becomes USA-924. This document has been shown to the witness Best in the presence of the counsel for the Gestapo, Dr. Merkel, and the witness Best has identified it. The document shows not only that the witness Best had knowledge of the program of counterterror carried on in Denmark, but that he himself decreed acts of counterterrorism to be taken, and that on one occasion he ordered the execution of a student. During the examination of Dr. Best, the Tribunal will recall a series of documents, Exhibits USA-911 to 915 inclusive, which were offered to show that the Gestapo murdered a French general. At that time we had only the photostatic copies of these documents, and I told the Tribunal that we would try to obtain the originals. We now have the originals in our possession, and they are being substituted for the photostatic copies. I also asked the witness Best at that time if he knew that in connection-that at about the time that this alleged murder was supposed to have taken place, that a French general, General Mesny, was killed, and he said he did not know that. The French Prosecution has given us the documentary proof that General Mesny was killed at that time under circumstances which prove conclusively that this murder was accomplished in conformity with the plans which have heretofore been shown, and to that end I now offer as document next in order 4069-PS, which becomes USA-925. This document is certified by the Delegation of the Ministry of Justice of France. I would ask the Tribunal to turn to Page 2, which is a letter from the International Red Cross Committee, Geneva, dated 5,April 1945, to Madame Mesny.
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: I wish to emphasize the fact that this document is dated long before the present time and was written at a time when the other documents which the Tribunal has the benefit of, were, of course, entirely unknown. This letter states that Monsieur Denzler, attaché at the Swiss Legation in Berlin, had sent certain information concerning General Mesny, and I should just like to respectfully invite your attention to the second paragraph of his report, where he states that the Generals Flavigny, de Boisse, and Buisson had been transferred from Oflag IV B in K6nigstein to Oflag IV C in Colditz. "The Generals Mesny and Vauthier have also left K6nigstein in a private car for Colditz. According to a communication from Commander Prawitt, General Mesny was shot near Dresden while trying to escape." That was the report which the International Red Cross sent to Madame Mesny. But I particularly desire to invite the attention of the Tribunal to the second document, which is dated 29 April 1945, and which was written by General Buisson to the Minister of War concerning the case of General Mesny. General Buisson states in this letter as follows: "On 18 January 1945..." and parenthetically I refresh the recollection of the Tribunal that the last document which we offered was dated 12 January 1945 showing that at that time all plans for this murder had been completed. To continue with the document: "... the following six officers, all generals, from the camp of K6nigstein, Oflag IV B, were picked out and told to leave the camp on 19 January in the morning, for an unknown destination. First car, Generals Daine and de Boisse..." Now, parenthetically again, if the Tribunal will recall, General, de Boisse was the general whom it was first intended to murder, as shown by the document, and if you remember, it was decided that General de Boisse would not be killed because his name had been discussed too often over the telephone, and therefore another general was to be substituted for him. So you see General de Boisse was in the first car.