dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SAUTER: On this occasion, Herr Lauterbacher, did he say anything about the needless destruction of so many cultural treasures, art treasures, property belonging to the people, et cetera, and did he not give certain instances of this?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. As an especially glaring instance, he quoted the case of the attempt, which was at least partially carried through, to loot the Jewish firm of Bernheimer, art dealers in Munich.
DR. SAUTER: Munich?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. He quoted this example to the Youth Leadership to illustrate the dangerous and irreparable inroads made on the reservoir of our culture and our cultural treasures by these demonstrations.
DR. SAUTER: Is it true that immediately after this Berlin speech about which you have just told us, the Defendant Von Schirach caused definite directives to be issued by telephone from Berlin, through your agency, to the individual Hitler Youth offices?
LAUTERBACHER: This took place as early as 10 November, the day after the Munich meeting. It had nothing to do with the district leaders' meeting, which only took place about 15 November.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I assume that, as time went on, you were present at a good many speeches made by the Defendant Von Schirach to his subleaders, or to the Hitler Youth, and that you listened to many of these speeches yourself. Did the Defendant Con Schirach engage in Jew-baiting on these or other occasions? Did he suggest that violence be used against the Jews? What was his attitude?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes; I must have listened to all the important speeches delivered by Von Schirach before the Leadership Corps of the Hitler Youth, and on the occasion of these speeches I never heard him urge the use of violence, which would in any case have been completely foreign to his nature. At any rate, I cannot recall that Von Schirach ever called upon the Youth Leadership, either directly or indirectly, to take part in acts of violence of any kind against anyone.
DR. SAUTER: What did Schirach usually talk about in delivering one of his many speeches addressed to youth? Just the main topic, briefly.
LAUTERBACHER: One must certainly differentiate between the long speeches which he delivered at public demonstrations and the speeches which he made before the leaders of the Hitler Youth. In the speeches he addressed to the leaders he always discussed the main political and ideological tasks and the tasks of social policy, cultural policy, and professional training which he had assigned to the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Herr Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did you leave the Church?
LAUTERBACHER: I do not believe that Herr Von Schirach even knew to what religious denomination I belonged or whether I left the Church or not. I left the Church in 1937 or 1938, without being influenced or forced to do so by anyone.
DR. SAUTER: Did Von Schirach urge his other collaborators to leave the Church, as far as you know?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach abuse Christianity or incite others to attack it on the occasion of the numerous speeches made by him, to which you have just told us that you listened?
LAUTERBACHER: On those occasions Schirach always told the youth to respect religious convictions, and characterized atheism as an evil, not only once but many times. In his speeches, Von Schirach vigorously criticized, for instance, the athletic clubs existing both before and after 1933 in connection with the various churches and demanded the unity of youth; but on these occasions he did not attack Christianity or the religious convictions of others either in public or in private.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, during the time the Defendant Von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, negotiations were pending with the Roman Catholic Church with a view to concluding a concordat, so that relations between the State and the Church would be regulated by an agreement. Do you know whether Von Schirach took part in these concordat negotiations and whether he took much trouble to effect an understanding with the Church on a basis satisfactory to both sides?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In 1933 and 1934 Schirach had numerous discussions with representatives of the Church, Reich Bishop Muller of the Protestant Church and the representative of the Fulda Conference of Bishops, Bishop Berning of Osnabruck. I remember that Schirach strove to draw a dividing line between their respective powers and jurisdiction on some such basis as: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's."
DR. SAUTER: I have another question, Witness: Do you know whether Von Schirach actually tried to bring about an understanding between the Hitler Youth, of which he was the leader, and the youth of other countries, and can you tell us, for instance, what he did and what steps he took to that end?
LAUTERBACHER: The establishment of a cordial understanding between German youth and world youth generally was undoubtedly one of those tasks the importance of which Schirach constantly emphasized to his youth leaders, and I always had the impression that this task was, as I might almost say, his particular passion. I myself, on his orders-and perhaps I am a cardinal witness on precisely this point-visited the various European countries, from 1935 onwards, at least once a year and sometimes even two or three times a year, so that I could get in touch with existing youth organizations and with organizations of combatants of the first World War, in order to establish contact with them.
DR. SAUTER: Which countries?
LAUTERBACHER: It can truthfully be said that the Hitler Youth sought contacts with all the countries of Europe; and I myself, at the direct order of Von Schirach, visited England several times. There I met the leader of the British Boy Scouts and his colleague, but also... 1~; PRESIDENT: I do not think those facts are in dispute. It is merely the inference that is to be drawn from the facts that the Prosecution will rely upon. Therefore it is not necessary for you to go into the facts again, as to the connection of the Hitler Youth with the foreign youth.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President. Witness, you have just heard that these facts are not in dispute. We can therefore turn to another topic. You were the Stabsfuehrer of the Hitler Youth in the Reich Youth Leadership. Do you know whether the Leadership of the Hitler Youth maintained spies or agents abroad, or whether it trained people for the so-called Fifth Column-and I take it you know what that is-in other countries, or whether it brought young people over to be trained as parachutists in Germany and then sent them back to their own countries. During your whole period of office as Stabsfuehrer, did you ever learn of anything like that?
LAUTERBACHER: The Hitler Youth did not have spies, agents, or parachutists to operate in any country in Europe. I would have been bound to learn of such a fact or such an arrangement in any circumstances.
DR. SAUTER: Even if Schirach had made such an arrangement behind your back, do you believe that you would have been bound to learn of it in any case through the channels of reports from district leaders and similar channels?
LAUTERBACHER: I would inevitably have learned of this or have observed it in these districts on some of my many official trips.
DR. SAUTER: Then, Witness, I should like to turn to another topic. The other day you told me about a certain discussion. After the Polish campaign-that would be, presumably, at the end of September or beginning of October 1939-and before the actual campaign in France you had a meeting with the Defendant Von Schirach in your residence in Berlin-Dahlem, on which occasion the Defendant Von Schirach voiced his attitude to the war. Will you describe this conversation briefly to the Court?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. Von Schirach came to see me at the end of September or beginning of October 1939. He visited me in the house which I occupied at the time in Berlin. The conversation very quickly turned to war, and Schirach said that, in his opinion, this war should have been prevented. He held the Foreign Minister of that time responsible for having given Hitler inadequate or false information. He regretted the fact that Hitler and the leading men of the State and the Party knew nothing about Europe and the world generally and had steered Germany into this war without having any idea of the consequences. At that time he was of the opinion that if the war could not be brought to an end in the shortest possible time, we should lose it. In this connection he referred to the enormous war potential of the United States and England. He said-and I remember the expression very well-that this war was an unholy one and that if the German people were not to be plunged into disaster as a result of it, the Fuehrer must be informed of the danger which would arise for Germany if America were to intervene, either through deliveries of goods or through actual entry into the war. We considered at the time who could inform Hitler, who, in fact, could even obtain access to him. Schirach suggested trying in some way to introduce Colin Ross into Adolf Hitler's presence. Colin Ross was to call Hitler's attention to the threatening catastrophe and to inform Hitler of the facts. This was to be done outside the competency of the Foreign Minister and without the Foreign Minister being present. At that time Colin Ross was not yet in Germany. I remember that when he returned he was introduced into Hitler's presence by way of Schirach.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you tell us more about the discussion which you mentioned as having taken place in 1939. I should like you to answer this question: How did he come to choose Dr. Colin Ross in particular? How did you happen to think of him?
LAUTERBACHER: I have already mentioned that the leaders of the National Socialist State and of the Party were almost totally lacking in knowledge of the world and foreign countries generally, and had consequently hit upon this man, who had seen so much of the world. Colin Ross had occasionally attended meetings of the Hitler Youth Leaders before 1939 and had addressed them...
DR. SAUTER: What about?
LAUTERBACHER: . . . and thus he was known to Schirach and the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: What were the topics he discussed before the Hitler Youth?
LAUTERBACHER: Colin Ross spoke of his experiences in every continent.
DR. SAUTER: How did Colin Ross become known to the Hitler Youth? On this occasion did you also speak of whether an attempt should be made to find a solution of the Jewish problem, so that it would be easier to reach an understanding with other countries, and if so, on what basis?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In the course of this conversation Schirach referred to the excesses of 9 November 1938 and to the speech he made immediately afterwards, and said that in the circumstances it would naturally be extremely difficult to start discussions with America; that we might have to try beforehand- if circumstances permitted-and he wished to suggest this to Hitler during an interview...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal does not think it is really sufficiently important to go into Schirach's private discussions with this witness. If he can say anything as to what Schirach did, it may be different, but now the witness is simply reciting the discussions which he had with Schirach, nothing more than private discussion.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what steps did Schirach actually take towards peace, or to shorten the war, as a result of these discussions with you? Did he take any steps; and what were these steps?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, as he told me at a later discussion, Schirach made use of every opportunity at the beginning of the war to convince Hitler of the need for discussions with America, and with this purpose in view, he actually brought Colin Ross to Hitler, as he told me later. Colin Ross was with Hitler for several hours. When Colin Ross visited me at Hanover he told me about this discussion and on this occasion he said that Hitler was very thoughtful. He did say also, however, that a second discussion which had been planned with Hitler had not materialized, for, according to his version, the Foreign Office had protested against this kind of information.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thrills that this witness is dealing in great detail with matters which are of very little importance and the Tribunal wishes you to bring his attention to something which is of real importance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have in any case only one more question. One last question, Witness. You have not been with Schirach since 1940. I believe you became a Gauleiter.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Schirach went to Vienna. But in 1943 you again had a long talk with him, mainly about why Schirach did not resign from his post. My reason for putting this question to you is that one member of the Prosecution has already discussed the question today. Will you tell us briefly what reasons Schirach gave at the time for retaining his office or why he did not resign, and what his views on the war were in 1943-at that time, I mean?
LAUTERBACHER: In March 1943, when I made an unofficial visit to Vienna, a very long conversation took place between Von Schirach and myself. At that time, Von Schirach talked very pessimistically about the prospects of the war and told me that we should soon be fighting outside Vienna, in the Alps and along the Rhine. On that occasion he said that he had not been able to see Adolf Hitler for a very long time; that he had had no further opportunity of reporting to him, as had formerly been the case; and that the Chief of the Party Chancellery, Bormann, had consistently prevented him from seeing the Fuehrer and talking to him alone; and that he therefore no longer had any opportunity whatsoever of discussing Viennese questions or general questions with Hitler. In this connection he also stated that Bormann came to him with objections and complaints every day, cancelling orders and directives he had issued in his capacity of Gauleiter in Vienna, and that in view of all this, it was no longer possible for him to remain in office and to shoulder the responsibility. At a later stage of that conversation, in the course of which we considered all kinds of possibilities, he said that, as he had sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler, he felt bound to remain in office whatever happened and that, above all, he could not take the responsibility in the present military situation for abandoning the population over which he had been appointed Gauleiter. He saw the catastrophe coming but said that even his resignation or any action that he might take would not have any influence on the leaders of the State or on Hitler himself and that he would, therefore, remain true to his oath, as a soldier would, and retain his appointment.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that concludes my examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel want to ask him any questions?
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, were you Gauleiter in Hanover from 1940?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, from December 1940.
DR. SERVATIUS: You were also Plenipotentiary for Labor in that capacity?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were there many foreign laborers in your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, there were a great many foreign laborers in my district. This was mainly due to the Hermann Goering Works, which had been established near Brunswick.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you have to look after them?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, my assignments as Plenipotentiary for Labor were confined to looking after foreign civilian workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you receive instructions from Sauckel on that point?
LAUTERBACHER: I, like all other Gauleiter of the NSDAP, constantly received instructions from Sauckel with regard to the recruitment of labor; that is to say, regarding the welfare of these civilian workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: What type of instructions were they?
LAUTERBACHER: The instructions which I received as Gauleiter consisted almost exclusively of repeated demands to do everything to satisfy the foreign workers in matters of accommodation, food, clothing, and cultural welfare.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was that carried out in practice?
LAUTERBACHER: It was naturally carried out within the limits of existing possibilities.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you inspect camps or factories where these workers were employed?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I myself inspected such camps and especially such factories on my official trips. Apart from that I had, as my Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front, a man who assisted me in this task on such occasions.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you or your Gau supervisor discover the existence of shocking conditions?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. After the air raids from which Hanover and Brunswick suffered particularly badly from 1943 onwards, I found conditions in foreign civilian labor camps-just as I did in the living quarters of German people-to be what I would call, perhaps not shocking, but certainly very serious; and after that I tried as far as possible to have these destroyed dwellings repaired, for instance, or to have new ones built.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you see any abuses for which these industrial enterprises of the supervisory agencies were directly responsible?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I do remember two such cases. Several firms in Hanover had formed a kind of industrial association-a kind of union-and had established a camp for their foreign civilian workers. The trustees of these firms were responsible for this camp. One day the Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front reported to me that living conditions did not comply with instructions received and asked my permission to intervene, that is to say, to be allowed to assume responsibility through the German Labor Front for that collective camp. I gave him this assignment; and sometime afterwards he reported that these difficulties had been overcome. The Hermann Goering Works constitute another example of this kind. Since I am speaking under oath here, I must mention the fact that that firm disregarded Sauckel's instructions in many respects. On one occasion they recruited workers independently, outside the jurisdiction of the labor administration through their branches in the Ukraine and other countries. These laborers came to Watenstedt, in the area supervised by the Executive Board of the Party, outside the quota fixed by the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and consequently outside of his jurisdiction. I myself had very considerable difficulty in obtaining entry to the works and the camp. For although Gauleiter and Plenipotentiary, I was not by any means in a position simply to. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. What has this got to do with the Defendant Sauckel?
DR. SERVATIUS: I asked him about any abuses which he had found, for as plenipotentiary for the recruitment of foreign workers it was his duty to ascertain where such bad conditions existed and to report them so that they would finally be brought to Sauckel's notice. He has digressed rather widely and has just been describing the Hermann Goering Works.
THE PRESIDENT: You should stop him, Dr. Servatius. You know the question you were asking.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, did you discover the existence of abuses in the camp?
LAUTERBACHER: I was unable to enter the camp, because entry was forbidden.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Sauckel himself address the workers in your Gau? LAUTERBACHER No, not during my period of office. But he frequently sent representatives.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have now got some questions to put on behalf of the political leaders whom I represent. Did you receive special instructions from the Fuehrer on your appointment as Gauleiter?
LAUTERBACHER: No. When I was appointed Gauleiter I was merely introduced by Herr Hess as Gauleiter, during an assembly of Gauleiter. But I received no special instructions on the occasion of that meeting, and during my...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, the answer was "no" and you did not need to add to it at all.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you talk to the Fuehrer later on? Did you receive special or secret instructions?
LAUTERBACHER: I only saw the Fuehrer now and again at Gauleiter meetings and I never had any official discussions with him.
DR. SERVATIUS: Do you know anything about the activities of block leaders? In particular, I want to ask you: Were they used as spies?
LAUTERBACHER: No. DR. SERVATlUS: But there seems to be ~ widespread belief that in fact block leaders did act as spies and informers and that has been brought up by the Prosecution. Perhaps the SD used block leaders for that purpose?
LAUTERBACHER: The SD had its own agents who were not known to the Party. At any rate, the block leaders had no instructions to work for the SD.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was no card index kept of Party opponents?
LAUTERBACHER: Not in the Party organizations. As far as I know this card index was kept by the Secret Police, as was made known in connection with the plot of 20 July 1944. '
DR. SERVATIUS: Did the Party use agents for spying who may not have been block leaders but who worked for you in your capacity of Gauleiter?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
MR. DODD: When did you join the SS, Witness?
LAUTERBACHER: I was made an SS Brigadier General on 2 August 1940, on the occasion of my appointment as Deputy Gauleiter.
MR. DODD: I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined the SS. Would you repeat it, please?
LAUTERBACHER: On 2 August 1940.
MR. DODD: You had not belonged before that date to the organization at all?
LAUTERBACHER: I was not a member of the SS before that date; but I served in the Waffen-SS as a soldier, from 26 May 1940 to September 1940.
MR. DODD: And then you later became an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, did you not?
LAUTERBACHER: On 20 April 1944.
MR. DODD: And when did you join the staff of Himmler?
LAUTERBACHER: I was never a member of Himmler's staff.
MR. DODD: Did you not join it in January of 1944, or what would you say that you did join in the Reichsfuehrer SS Organization? Perhaps I have used the wrong term "staff." There is some other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with Himmler?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I never had any SS assignments.
MR. DODD: Did you have any connection with the Reichsfuehrer SS from January 1944 on?
LAUTERBACHER: In October 1944 the Reichsfuehrer SS had gone in his special train to Bad Pyrmont, on the occasion of a meeting of West German Gauleiter and Higher SS and Police Leaders. I had orders to be present at that function; and in the course of the meeting I had a talk with him.
MR. DODD: That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you become an SA Obergruppenfuehrer in 1944, as well as SS Obergruppenfuehrer?
LAUTERBACHER: I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer, I think, in 1944 or 1943.
MR. DODD: You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were yore not?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: And a member of the Party, I guess you said, since 1927; is that right?
LAUTERBACHER: Since 1927.
MR. DODD: And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?
LAUTERBACHER: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1927. The Hitler Youth was not established until 1927.
MR. DODD: Well, whenever it was, the youth organization of the Party, that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?
LAUTERBACHER: I did not understand the question.
MR. DODD: I said: How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?
LAUTERBACHER: I never hanged anyone publicly.