dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, the Chief of the Security Police and the SD had seven Amter. It is, therefore, important which of his Amter acted. Amt IV was the Secret Police, the Gestapo. Amt III was the Inland SD, Amt VI was the Foreign Intelligence Service. Each of these offices had its own chief, and Amt IV was an organization different from that of Amt III and of Amt VI. Above these seven offices was the Chief of the Security Police and of the SD. This title does not in itself show that the SD had anything to do with any matter, but one must examine which of the offices acted: Amt IV, III, or VI. And for that reason I called your Lordship's' attention to the file note "IVA," that is Amt IV, the Secret State Police, Gestapo. This shows that Amt III and Amt VI had nothing to do with this matter, but that it concerned Amt IV only. This is also shown by the numeral "III," which expressly lists only the State Police directorates.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will adjourn now. [A recess was taken until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session
DR. GAWLIK: In answer to the last question of Your Lordship I think it would assist the Tribunal if I were to indicate briefly the nature of my evidence and what I propose to establish by means of these documents. It is assumed by the Prosecution that the Gestapo, the Security Police, and the SD are independent organizations. The Gestapo is indicted separately, the Kripo (Criminal Police) is not indicted and the SD is indicted as a part of the SS. Over all of them was the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, so that in a small way it can be compared with the position of the Defendant G6ring, who was the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, Prussian Minister President, and Reich Hunting Master. Thus one cannot conclude from that which office it was; that only becomes apparent from the file numbers and the people who dealt with these files and I am trying to establish that by means of my documents. I now come to Document SD-20 which deals with the employment of Soviet Russian prisoners of war. One paragraph deals with the very questions which Your Lordship addressed to me with reference to the previous document, and I shall, therefore, read this paragraph. "In order to avoid any delay in moving new arrivals of prisoners of war into the Reich, the sifting out of political commissars and 'politruks' by the Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police will in future be carried out in the Government General only. "In the Government General the sifting will continue to be carried out by the Security Police." By this I wish to establish that we are here purely concerned with a measure of the Security Police, not of the SD. It then goes on to say: "In order to insure a more rapid execution, the Security Police will reinforce its Einsatzkommandos in the Government General." I then pass on to Document SD-21.
DR. GAWLIK: In this connection I beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to where it expressly says: "if occasion arises the request by the Kommandanturen to examine certain Arbeitskommandos through the Security Police is to be complied with." I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the file reference, "IV," that is, measures by Amt IV. Amt IV was the Secret State Police, the Gestapo. Had it been the SD, then the file reference would have had to be III or VI. I now come to -
THE PRESIDENT: In the document you have just been dealing with you have got "2 A III E" at the top, and you have "III B" a little bit further down.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, the one at the top is the general collection of decrees of which there are several volumes, which I obtained from the library here; and "2 A III E" refers to this general collection of decrees. The fact that it was Amt IV can be seen from the file reference "IVA I C 2468 B/42 G."
THE PRESIDENT: Just by the first of April 1942, there is III B. What does that mean-OKW File Number 2 F 2473, Prisoner-of-War Organization III B?
DR. GAWLIK: I have not got that. Your Lordship, I have not got that here, I do not know ...
THE PRESIDENT: Immediately under the words: "Re: labor detachments for agricultural work."
DR. GAWLIK: May I ask Your Lordship, did you refer to SD-21? That is a military file reference, Your Lordship. It says OKW, High Command of the Armed Forces, file reference of the Armed Forces, Chief of Prisoner-of-War Organization III B, and that III B has nothing to do with Amt III.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, go on.
DR. GAWLIK: I now come to Document SD-22. Here we are concerned with an extract from the directives for the Kommandos of the Chief of the Security Police and of the SD to be assigned to the prisoner of war camps. The date is 17 July 1941. I beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the leaders of the Einsatzkommandos are ordered to get in touch with the chief of the nearest State Police office or the Commander of the Security Police and the SD. The commander can be compared on a small scale with the office of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD; he too had several subdepartments. III was SD, IV was State Police, V was Criminal Police; so that even the title of commander does not show which department issued it. I should like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the following sentence: "As a matter of principle, such communications are to be passed to the RSHA IV A 1 by way of information." From that it becomes evident that the measures were only dealt with in Amt IV, that is the State Police, and that Amt III had nothing to do with it. The following documents, SD-23 to SD-28 inclusive, refer to the allegation on the part of the Prosecution, according to which the SD had carried out the Bullet Decree; trial brief against the Gestapo and SD, Statement of Evidence VI C. I shall first of all deal with Document SD-23. The document has already been presented by the Prosecution as Number 1650-PS. It concerns the teletype letter from the Gestapo, the Aussendienststelle Aachen, to all main Gestapo offices. I quote in order to prove that here, too, we are merely concerned with measures of the Secret State Police, the Gestapo. "In this connection, I order the following: "1. The main offices of the State Police are to take over the recaptured prisoner-of-war officers from the Stalag commandants and transfer them to Mauthausen Concentration Camp, according to the procedure customary up to now, unless circumstances make special transport necessary. "2.
DR. GAWLIK: The OKW has been requested to instruct the prisoner-of-war camps that for the purpose of camouflage the recaptured persons should not be delivered directly to Mauthausen but to the competent local office of the State Police." I come to Document SD-24.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you leave out the fact that those documents were addressed to Inspectors of the Sipo and the SD?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, the case of the Inspectors is the same as that of the Chief of the Security Police and SD and the commanders. The Inspector was over the Criminal Police, over the State Police, and over the SD, and therefore was exercising all three functions.
THE PRESIDENT: According to this he was an Inspector of the SD. ,
DR. GAWLIK: He was Inspector of the SD, but it does not follow that because the Inspector of the Sipo was the same person, that when carrying out that activity he was acting in the capacity of the Inspector of the Sipo. We are here concerned with several offices under one person. But the contents show that prisoners of war were only to be taken over by the main offices of the State Police and that the SD offices had nothing to do with it. It says expressly under Number 1: "The main offices of the State Police are to take over The Inspector of the Security Police and of the SD also had jurisdiction over these police offices. He had control of these measures of the State Police in his capacity as Inspector of the Security Police. The fact that he also simultaneously was Inspector of the SD does not mean that these things were to be carried out also by the SD offices.
THE PRESIDENT: Please continue, Dr. Gawlik.
DR. GAWLIK: I come to Document SD-24. It has already been presented under 1165-PS, and in this connection I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that this is signed by Mueller, who, as is known to the Tribunal, was the chief of Amt IV. This again shows that the Gestapo alone were competent. Document SD-25 is a circular decree from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, dated 20 October 1942, which deals with the treatment of escaped Soviet prisoners of war, and again I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the file reference, which is IV. I will now quote: "I request that the main offices of the State Police instruct all the police offices of the area, in the sense of Article 3 of the decree of the High Command of the Armed Forces of 5 May 1942, even if such has already been done." May I say to Your Lordship in this connection that if this had belonged to the tasks of the SD offices then the SD offices would also have had to be informed.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, I don't think it is doing any good at all to argue upon each document. You must make your final speech at some time; and unless there is anything really very important in particular documents which you want to draw our attention to, so that we can really consider it before you make your final speech, you had much better leave the argument upon the documents until you get to your final speech. This is simply wasting our time without having any useful purpose at all.
DR. GAVVLIK: Your Lordship, I have only ...
THE PRESIDENT: Well, up to the present you have commented upon each document as far as I can see, SD-22, SD-23, SD-24, SD-25, each one of them; and you are going through the book like that. Why don't you offer them all in evidence in bulk; and then if you want to draw our attention to any particular document for some particular purpose, as I say, because you think it is important and we should consider it before you come to make your final speech, do so. But don't spend time in just explaining what each document is. We have to hear all the other organizations before we come to hear your speech.
DR. GAWLIK: I only did it because I gathered from the question that there was some confusion with regard to the positions of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and that of the commanders and of the inspectors.
THE PRESIDENT: I only put a question to you because you were going through each document in turn and I couldn't understand what the documents were about. DR. GAV&IK: Documents SD-27 and SD-28 also deal with the allegation on the part of the Prosecution regarding the "Bullet" decree. May I perhaps quote from Document Number SD-28: "Insofar as escaped Soviet prisoners of war are brought bark to the camp according to this order, they are in every case to be turned over to the nearest office of the Gestapo." The following documents, SD-29 to SD-42, deal with the accusation raised against the SD by the Prosecution, according to which the SD is to be held responsible for the setting up of concentration camps and determining their purpose, and for the transfer of politically and racially undesirable persons to concentration and extermination camps for the purpose of forced labor and mass extermination, Page 43 of the English trial brief. These documents show that the SD did not in any way participate in these measures; and, if I may, I should like to read one sentence of Document SD-29: "In the future, restrictions of personal liberty"-I leave out what follows-"may be ordered only by the Secret State Police Office, to apply to the entire state territory, and by the Oberregierungspr5sidenten, by the Police Commissioner in Berlin, and by the State Police branch offices, to apply to their respective jurisdiction." From Document SD-31 I quote: "Protective custody can be ordered for any person as a coercive measure of the Secret State Police in order to combat any activities hostile to the State and the people.... Only the Secret State Police is entitled to decree protective custody." , Document SD-37 deals with the allegation by the Prosecution according to which the SD also administered concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: I shall, therefore, quote one sentence from the document: "The camp commandant is in charge of the administration of a concentration camp and of all economic industries of the SS within its sphere of organization." The administration of camps is also shown in Document SD-38-
THE PRESIDENT: I can't see any point in drawing our attention to that document at the present time.
DR. GAWLIK: Because in the trial brief the accusation has been raised against the SD that it also administered concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: But this document doesn't show that they did not.
DR. GAWLIK: Document SD-37 is a decree, from the Chief of the SS Economic and Administration Main Office. That was a completely different office, which had nothing to do with the RSHA.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me to be quite vague as to who the camp commandants of concentration camps are. As I say, it doesn't seem to me to be a document which it is necessary to refer to at this stage.
DR. GAWLIK: I then refer to Document Number SD-39. There it says: "The transfer of the Inspectorate of the concentration Camps to the Economic and Administration Main Office has been carried out with the full agreement of all the main offices concerned." From this it becomes apparent that, first of all, concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, and that this was then transferred to the $S Economic and administration Main Office. However, the SD belonged to the RSHA. The fact that concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps also becomes apparent from the previous Document SD-38. I beg to refer you to Document Number SD-40, in which it is explicitly stated ...
THE PRESIDENT: You are not taking the slightest notice of what I said to you. You are going through every document, or practically every document-not every document. You began this by saying that 29 to 42 dealt with concentration camps. Then you went to 37; then you went to 38; then you went to 39. They really don't help the Tribunal at all. You have told us that 29 to 42 referred to transfer to concentration camps. Well, that is quite enough. Unless there is a document which is really important, which we should study before we hear you make your speech, the summary that 29 to 42 deal with transfer to concentration camps is quite enough.
DR.GAWTLIK: I thought that I could assist the Tribunal by drawing their attention to the fact that concentration camps came under the SS Economic and Administration Main Office, not the RSHA. Only for that reason did I discuss these further documents. Documents SD-43 to 49 deal with the accusation that the SD had participated in the deportation of citizens of the occupied territories for the purpose of forced labor, and that it had the task of supervising this forced labor. SD-43 shows the jurisdiction of the State Police. I quote from these documents only the following. From Document SD-43, under Figure 2: "The tasks arising from the employment of Soviet Russians are to be comprised in a section attached to the State Police Main Offices. This section will be in charge of a criminal police official, who in turn will be under the constant personal supervision of the Chief of the State Police Main Offices." I now quote one sentence from Appendix I to Document SD-43; "The recruitment of labor from the former Soviet Russian territory will be carried out by recruitment commissions from the Reich Ministry of Labor." And: "The recruitment commissions of the Reich Labor Ministry will set up reception camps." Document SD-50 deals with the Commando Order. I beg to draw the tribunal's attention to the words "are to be handed over to the Security Police." Documents SD-51 to 53 deal with the allegation on the part of the Prosecution that the SD had the task of protecting civilians if they had lynched airmen belonging to the United Nations. Document SD-54 is already in evidence under USA-504 and 668-PS. It deals with the carrying out of the "Nacht und Nebel" Decree. Documents SD-55 up to 57 deal with the assertion on the part of the Prosecution that the SD, in summary proceedings, had arrested citizens of occupied territories and sentenced them before the courts.
DR.GAWTLIK: I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal to Document SD-55, which is also L-316, and from that I shall quote one sentence: "These foreign nationals are in the future to be turned over to the Police." I quote one regulation, one sentence, from Document SD-56: "Criminal actions by Jews will be punished by the Police." Documents SD-58, 58a to c, deal with the assertion on the part of the Prosecution that the SD had participated in the confiscation by force and partitioning of public and private property. I shall quote one sentence from Document SD-58: "The confiscation will be declared by the Main Offices of the State Police for the benefit of the Greater German Reich." SD-9 and SD-60 deal with the third-degree methods during interrogations. In this connection I beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to filing reference Numeral IV, which deals with the jurisdiction of Amt IV, Secret State Police. In Document SD-60 the existing regulations applicable to the Security Police in the Government General are expressly specified. Documents SD-60a up to 64 deal with the charge against the SD according to which crimes against humanity were committed. SD-60a to 63 deal with the persecution of Jews. In connection with Document SD-62 I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal again to IV B and also to the signature "Mueller, Chief of the Secret State Police." Document SD-64 refers to the charge against the SD in reference to the persecution of the Churches (Statement of Evidence VII B, Page 57).
DR.GAWTLIK: Documents SD-65 to 69 set forth the-legal regulations on the strength of which during the war a large portion of members of the SD Amt III and VI were called up for compulsory and emergency service; I should like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the following sentence in Document SD-65: "As employers of labor"-I omit a few words-"the SD sections can request the labor offices to place at their disposal replacement and supplementary manpower in accordance with the principles of allotment and use of the population during war." SD-69 contains the punishment decreed for those who did not comply with such regulations. I now come to Document SD-70, regarding which I have been unable to agree with the Prosecution. I ask, therefore, that first a decision be made as to whether or not I may introduce this document.
THE PRESIDENT: I have only got one document book.
DR. GAWLIK: It is in the appendix, Your Lordship. May I send up the original, Your Lordship~
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Will you tell the Tribunal what it is about?
DR. GAWLIK: With this document I wish first of all to prove that the SD did not belong to the Police and did not belong to the SS. Furthermore, I wish to establish that the SD in the Reich and the organization of the Security Police and the SD outside the Reich were separate organizations, and I want to establish the tasks of Amt III. I beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to the fact that in Section IV the SD is mentioned under German Intelligence Service.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a book produced by the Allied Command, isn't it? Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Forces, and you are offering that, is that it?
DR. GAWLIK: The General Secretary ...
THE PRESIDENT: Has there been any formal application for this document?
DR. GAWLIK: Oh yes. The document is contained in the appendix to the document book. But I have not been able to reach an agreement with the Prosecution regarding this book.
THE PRESIDENT: We will hear the Prosecution about it.
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: May it please the Tribunal, we have no strong objection to this document. It is simply one of several which we discussed and we did not agree upon it. Our objection is primarily to its value in so far as evidence is concerned. It is an intelligence book and therefore what is said in that book relates exclusively to matters of intelligence. It is dated April 1945. That is the date of its publication and quite obviously, as of that date, the information could not be available such as is now available to the Tribunal in a competent form.
DR. GAWIK: Your Lordship ...
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will admit the book for what it is worth.
DR. GAWLIK: First of all, I beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to the fact that in this book the organization of the State and the Party is subdivided into four parts and the Intelligence Service is given a section of its own-Numeral IV. Numeral I is the State and Party; Numeral II is Para-Military Units; Numeral III is the German Police, and Numeral IV is the German Intelligence Service; the organization of Amter III and VI. I then beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that in the case of the SS it states that the SS consists of (1) Waffen SS, (2) the General SS, and (3) the Germanic SS. The SD Is not listed there. And I further beg to draw the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the Intelligence Service mentioned under Numeral IV is subdivided into SD Inland III, the organization of the Security Police and the SD outside of the Reich, and thirdly into Amter VI and VII. I And then I beg to draw the attention of the Tribunal particularly to the following statement regarding the activities of Amt III. There it say's: "The information supplied by intelligence agents is digested into situation reports and"-and it goes on to say that "these reports are extraordinarily frank and sincere"-I translated that myself-"and contain a complete and unvarnished picture of the attitude and frame of mind in Germany." I now pass on to my last document. That is a letter from an assistant teacher (Studienassessor) Wolferts, and I submitted the letter because I had only just received it and I could not get an affidavit. The letter refers to Document 142. That is the wellknown document from Kochem, where the SD is supposed to have supervised the voting, and this letter mentions the evangelical clergyman, Alferich Wolferts, who voted "no," the vote being attached to the report. The daughter's letter shows that no measures were taken either by the Gestapo or the SD against the father, who has since died. I have now finished.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, should I read to the Tribunal a list of the documents or should I submit a written statement as to where the documents are to be found? Most of the documents have already been submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we have got that. Haven't we got it at the beginning of your document book? We have an index.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean to make a separate document of it?
DR. GAWLIK: I only have part of the documents, some of them are documents of the Prosecution, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: If you think it would serve a useful purpose, by all means submit your index under a separate number and deposit it with the Tribunal.
DR. GAWLIK: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr, Kubuschok, when you were dealing with the witnesses, did we deal with the Reich Cabinet next? Are you prepared to go on with your documents?