dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON SCHIRACH: I had nothing to do with the student movement, and I do not remember having spoken before such a meeting. I consider it quite out of the question that such a meeting of students took place at all. I did not make those statements.
DR. SAUTER: Have you got the affidavit before you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I cannot find that particular passage at the moment.
DR. SAUTER: It says something which I have translated into German, namely, it mentions the "small, fat student leader." Have you got that passage? Does it not say so?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, it says so.
DR. SAUTER: Well then, surely "small, fat student leader" cannot be applied to you. May I, Mr. President, in this connection, draw your attention to an affidavit which appears in Schirach's document book under Number Schirach-3, and which I herewith submit to the Tribunal. It is an affidavit of a certain Hoepken, who, beginning with 1 May 1938, was the female secretary of the Defendant Von Schirach and who, in this affidavit under the Figure 16-which is Page 22 of the document book-mentioning exact details-states under oath that during the time with which we are here concerned the defendant was not at Heidelberg at all. I do not suppose it is necessary for me to read that part of the affidavit. I am asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of it.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this would be a good time to break off. [A recess was taken.]
DR. SAUTER: Witness, you have spoken in another connection about the fact that you did not consider officers suitable as youth leaders. I would be interested to know how many members of the leadership corps of the Hitler Youth in 1939 at the outbreak of the war were reserve officers in the Armed Forces.
VON SCHIRACH: I would judge that the leadership corps of the HJ had about 1,300 leaders. Those were leaders of the Banne, leaders of the districts or regions, and the corresponding staff of assistants. Of these 1,300 youth leaders, 5 to 10 men were reserve of ricers.
DR. SAUTER: And how many active officers did you have at that time on your staff or in the leadership corps?
VON SCHIRACH: Active officers were not youth leaders and could not be youth leaders.
DR. SAUTER: Why not? Was that contained in the regulations?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. An officer was not permitted to be a member of the Party or any one of its organs or affiliated organizations.
DR. SAUTER: Who was responsible to you for the physical education and sports programs in the Hitler Youth?
VON SCHIRACH: Obergebietsfuehrer Von Tschammer-Osten, who was also Reich Sports Leader. In the Olympic year he cooperated very closely with me and voluntarily subordinated himself to me in December or November 1936. He was responsible to me for the entire physical education of the boys and girls.
DR. SAUTER: This Herr Von Tsthammer-Osten, who was very well known in the international sports world, was he an officer by profession?
VON SCHIRACH: According to my recollection he had been an officer during the first World War. Then he left the Army and was a farmer by profession. Later on he concerned himself only with questions of physical education and sport. One of his brothers was an active officer.
DR. SAUTER: Did Von Tschammer-Osten become an officer during the second World War?
VON SCHIRACH: No, he did not.
DR. SAUTER: Do you remember that? A document has been submitted here by the Soviet Prosecution. namely a report from Lvov, in which it is stated that the Hitler Youth or the Reich Youth Leadership had conducted courses for young people from Poland, and these young people were to be trained as agents, spies, and parachutists. You have stated today that you take the complete responsibility for the youth leadership. I ask you to tell us something about that.
VON SCHIRACH: We had absolutely no possibilities for espionage training in our youth organization. Whether Heydrich on his part, without my knowledge and without the knowledge of my assistants, had hired youthful agents in Poland and used them within his intelligence service, it is not possible for me to say. I myself did not conduct any espionage training; I had no courses for agents, and courses for training parachutists were out of the question because, after all, I had no air force. Training of that kind could only have been conducted through the Air Force.
DR. SAUTER: Then you, as Reich Youth Leader or, as you were called later, Reich Leader for Youth Education, have never known anything about these things before this Trial? Can you state that under oath?
VON SCHIRACH: That I can state upon my oath. I should like to add that shortly before the war young refugees from Poland came to us in large numbers, but they of course could not return to Poland. The persecution of the Germans in Poland is a historical fact.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Prosecution has asserted that in the Hitler Youth a song was sung, "Heute gehoert uns Deutschland, und morgen die ganze Welt" (Today Germany belongs to us, tomorrow the whole world); that is the alleged title of that song, and that is supposed to have expressed the will for conquest of the Hitler Youth; is that correct?
VON SCHIRACH: The song says, in the original text which was written by Hans Baumann and is also included in a document here: "Heute da hoert uns Deutschland und morgen die ganze Welt" (Germany hears us today and tomorrow the whole world). But it had come to my knowledge also that the song, from time to time, was being sung in the form which has been mentioned here. For that reason I issued a prohibition against singing the song which differed from the original text. I also prohibited, years ago, the song "Siegreich wollen wir Frankreich schlagen" (Victoriously we will conquer France) from being sung by the German Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: You prohibited the last mentioned song entirely?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Out of consideration for your French guests?
VON SCHIRACH: Not out of consideration for guests but because it was contrary to my political conceptions.
DR. SAUTER: Thus, Mr. President, I submit the correct text which I got from a song book. It is Number Schirach-95 of the Schirach document book. In connection with the question of whether the Hitler Youth intended a premilitary training of youth, I should like to put the following additional questions. Did the physical and sport training of youth apply only to the boys, Herr Von Schirach?
VON SCHIRACH: No. Of course all young people received physical training.
DR. SAUTER: Also the girls?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Is it correct that your efforts directed toward the physical training and physical strengthening of youth also applied to the physically handicapped and to the blind and other young people who from the very outset could not be used for military purposes?
VON SCHIRACH: Very early in our work I included the blind and deaf and the cripples in the Hitler Youth. I had a periodical especially issued, for the blind and had books made for them in Braille. I believe that the Hitler Youth was the only organization in Germany which took care of these people, except for special organizations of the NSV (National Socialist Welfare Organization) and so on.
DR. SAUTER: I ask, in connection with that, Mr. President, that you take notice of Document Schirach-27 of the Schirach document book. That is a long article entitled "Admission of Physically Handicapped Young People in the Hitler Youth," where the deaf, dumb, and blind are especially mentioned and their training to enable them to take up a professional occupation.
MR. DODD: I have refrained all day from making any objection, but I think this examination has gone very far afield. We have made no charge against this defendant with respect to the blind, the deaf, the lame, and halt. He keeps going way back to the Boy Scouts and we haven't gotten to any of the relevant issues that are between us and this defendant. At the present rate I fear we will never get through.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, we have listened to this somewhat long account of the training of the Hitler Youth. Don't you think you can go on to something more specific now? We have got a very fair conception, I think, of what the training of the Hitler Youth was; and we have got all these documents before us.
DR. SAUTER: I shall try, Mr. President, to proceed according to your wishes so far as it is at all possible. Witness, is it correct that you personally intervened with Hitler to prevent the re-establishment of cadet academies as institutions for purely military training?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is correct. I prevented the reestablishment of cadet academies.
DR. SAUTER: I come now to another chapter. The defendant has been accused of wrecking the Protestant and Catholic youth organizations. What can you say in answer to that?
VON SCHIRACH: First, the following: I wanted, as I have already explained, the unification of all our youth. I also wanted to bring the Protestant organizations, which were not very large numerically, and the numerically very large Catholic organizations into the Hitler Youth, particularly because some of the organizations did not limit themselves to religious matters but competed with the Hitler Youth in physical training, hikes, camping, and so on. In this I saw a danger to the idea of unity in German national education, and above all I felt that among young people themselves there was a very strong tendency toward the Hitler Youth. The desertion from the confessional organizations is a fact. There were also many clergymen who were of the opinion that the development should perhaps take the following direction: All youth into the Hitler Youth; the religious care of the youth through clergymen; sports and political work through youth leaders. In 1933 or 1934-but I think it was as early as 1933-Reich Bishop Mueller and the Protestant Bishop Oberheidt approached me on their own initiative and proposed that I incorporate the Protestant youth organizations into the Hitler Youth. Of course I was very happy about that proposal and accepted it. At that time I had no idea that there was opposition to Reich Bishop Mueller within the Protestant Church. I found out about that only much later. I believed that I was acting with the authority and in the name of the Evangelical Church, and the other bishop who accompanied him further strengthened this belief of mine. Even today I still believe that with the voluntary incorporation of the Protestant youth into the Youth State, Mueller acted in accordance with the will of the majority of the Protestant youth themselves; and in my later activity as Youth Leader I frequently met former leaders from the Protestant youth organizations, who had leading positions with me and worked in my youth organization with great enthusiasm and devotion.
VON SCHIRACH: Through that incorporation of Protestant youth-I should like to stress this-spiritual ministration to youth was not limited or hindered in any way; there never was a restriction of church services for youth in Germany, either then or later. Since Protestant youth had been incorporated on the basis of an agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth, there was practically only a dispute about youth education between the Catholic Church and the Hitler Youth. In May or June 1934 I asked personally to participate in the negotiations for the Reich Concordat because I wanted to eliminate entirely the differences between the Catholic Church and the Hitler Youth. I considered an agreement in this field to be very important and in fact I was allowed to participate in these negotiations which took place in June '34 in the Reich Ministry of the Interior under the chairmanship of Reich Minister for the Interior Frick. On the Catholic side Archbishop Groeber and Bishop Berning took part in the negotiations; and at that time I personally proposed a formula for co-operation, which met with the approval of the Catholic side, and I believed that I had found the basis for agreement in this sphere. The conferences were unfortunately interrupted on the evening of 29 June; and on 30 June '34 we experienced the so-called "Roehm Putsch," and the negotiations were never resumed. That is not my fault, and I bear no responsibility for that. Hitler simply did not want to accept the consequences of the Concordat. I personally desired to conclude that agreement, and I believe that the representatives of the Church saw from these negotiations and from certain later conferences with me that the difficulties did not originate with me. At any rate Bishop Berning came to me, I believe in 1939. We discussed current questions between the youth leadership and the Church. I believe that he also got the impression at that time that it was not I who wanted to make difficulties.
VON SCHIRACH: The difficulties arose at that time from the increasingly strong influence of Martin Bormann, who tried to prevent absolutely any kind of agreement between the Party offices and the Church or between the youth leadership and the Church. In the course of the dispute about the leadership of confessional youth organizations and their incorporation, animated public discussions arose. I myself spoke at various meetings. Statements were issued by the Church also, which according to the state of affairs, were more or less sharp. But I did not make statements inimical to religion in connection with that subject, nor did I at any time during my life.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, is it correct that in 1937 you concluded an agreement with the Church to the effect that the Hitler Youth should, in principle, not be on duty on Sundays during church time, so that the children could attend religious services, and furthermore, that on account of this agreement you ran into considerable difficulties?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
DR. SAUTER: Will you tell us very briefly about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe one can say that it was an agreement with the Church. If I remember correctly, I issued a decree based on various letters I had received from clergymen- which to a very great extent took into account the wishes expressed in these letters. I then issued that decree and I gather from many affidavits which have been sent by youth leaders to me recently that that decree was very carefully obeyed. Difficulties arose in the Party Chancellery on account of my attitude. Bormann, of course, was an energetic enemy of such a basic concession to the Church, and Hitler himself-I don't know whether it was in connection with this decree, but, at any rate, in connection with the regulation of the dispute between the youth leadership and the Church-also reprimanded me once.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I have a small book here, entitled A Good Year 1944 , with the sub-title "Christmas Gift of the War Welfare Service of Reich Leader Von Schirach." I submit that book as Document Number Schirach-84 to the Tribunal for judicial notice. On Page 55 is a picture of the Madonna. On Page 54 is a Christian poem written by the defendant, with the title "Bavarian Christmas Crib." On the lower half of Page 54 there is the famous "Wessobrunner Prayer," the oldest prayer in the German language, dating from the eighth century. Witness, is it also correct that on account of the Christian content of that book you had difficulties with Reichsleiter Bormann; and if so, what were they?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct. I had that Christmas gift made for, I believe, 80,000 to 100,000 soldiers and sent to them at the front as late as 1944. I did not hear anything directly from Bormann, but he suddenly asked for 10 copies of that book; and I was informed by people who were near the Fuehrer in his headquarters that he used that book in some way in order to incite Hitler against me. I should like to add that at all times of my life, at any rate insofar as I have written poetry, I have expressed myself in the same way as in this poem. Also in the collection of poems, The Flag of the Persecuted , which I do not have here unfortunately but which was distributed among the youth in a very large edition, where my revolutionary poems can be found, there are poems of a Christian content which, however, were not reprinted by the Party press in the newspapers and therefore did not become so well-known as my other verses. But I should like to express quite clearly that I was an opponent of confessional youth organizations, and I wish to make it just as clear that I was not an opponent of the Christian religions.
DR. SAUTER: Not an opponent?
VON SCHIRACH: Of course not.
DR. SAUTER: Did you leave the Church?
VON SCHIRACH: In spite of many hints by Bormann, I never left the Church.
DR. SAUTER: May I, Mr. President, ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of Documents Schirach-85 to 93, inclusive, of the Schirach document book. All of these are documents from the period when he was Reich Youth Leader and show his attitude toward the Church.
VON SCHIRACH: May I add something to that?
DR. SAUTER: If you please.
VON SCHIRACH: As far as my religious attitude is concerned, I always identified myself with the thoughts expressed in Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre about religions in general and the importance of the Christian religion in particular. I should like to say here that in my work as an educator I was mistaken in holding the opinion that positive Christianity existed outside of the Church. However, I never made any anti-Christian statements; and I should like to say here for the first time in public that in the closest circles of the Hitler Youth I have always expressed a very unequivocal belief in the person and teachings of Christ. Before educators of the Adolf Hitler School-a fact which naturally was never allowed to come to the knowledge of the Party Chancellery-I spoke about Christ as the greatest leader in world history and of the commandment to "Love thy neighbor" as a universal idea of our culture. I believe that there are also several testimonials by youth leaders about that in your possession, Mr. Attorney.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, I shall refer to that later. I should like to begin a new chapter now. In 1940 you were dismissed as Reich Youth Leader?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR SAUTER: And you were succeeded by Axmann who has already been mentioned. But you remained connected with youth education through what office?
VON SCHIRACH: Through the office of the Reichsleiter of Youth Education.
DR. SAUTER: And in addition to that you received another title, I believe?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I became Deputy of the Fuehrer for the Inspection of the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Was that only a title, or was that some kind of office?
VON SCHIRACH: That was an office to the extent that the Reichsleiter office was concerned with youth work in the Party sector. The Youth Leader of the German Reich-that was Axmann as my successor-also had a field of activity in the State, and I too became competent for that by my appointment as inspector.
DR. SAUTER: How did your dismissal as Reich Youth Leader come about, and why were you called specifically to Vienna as Gauleiter? What can you tell us about that?
VON SCHIRACH: At the end of the French campaign, in which I participated as an infantryman, I was in Lyon when a wireless message from the Fuehrer's headquarters was received, and the chief of my company told me that I had to report to the Fuehrer's headquarters. I went there at once; and at the Fuehrer's headquarters, which was at that time situated in the Black Forest, I saw the Fuehrer standing in the open speaking to Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop. I waited a while, maybe a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, until the conversation had ended and then reported at once to Hitler and there, outside, before the Casino building where later we all had our meal together, he told me the following in about 10 minutes: I should propose to him a successor for the leadership of the youth. He intended for me to take over the Reich Gau Vienna. I at once suggested my assistant, Axmann, who was not a man who advocated physical or military training but was concerned with social work among the youth, and that was most important to me He accepted this proposal...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, we need not go through Axmann's qualifications, need we? Is it material to the Tribunal to know what his successor was like?
DR. SAUTER: Axmann? Axmann was successor as Reich Youth Leader.
THE PRESIDENT: What I was asking you was whether it was material for the Tribunal to know the qualities of Axmann. We have nothing to do with that.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Von Schirach, you can be more brief about that point, can you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Hitler then said that I should keep my job as Reich Leader of Youth Education and that I should assume at the same time the office of the Inspector of Youth and that I should go to Vienna as the successor to Buerckel. In Vienna, especially in the cultural field, serious difficulties had arisen; and therefore I was to direct my attention to the case of the institutions of culture, particularly of theaters, art galleries, libraries, and so forth; and I was to be especially concerned about the working class. I raised the objection that I could carry out that cultural work only if independent of Goebbels, and Hitler promised at that time that this independence would be fully safeguarded; but he did not keep that promise later. And lastly he said that he was sending the Jewish population away from Vienna, that he had already informed Himmler or Heydrich-I do not remember exactly what he said-of his intentions, or at least would inform them. Vienna had to become a German city, and in that connection he even spoke of an evacuation of the Czech population. That concluded that conversation. I received no other instructions for this office, and then we dined together as usual. I took my leave then and went to Berlin to talk to my assistants.
DR. SAUTER: Vienna was considered at that time, if I am correctly informed, the most difficult Gau of the Reich; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: Vienna was by far the most difficult political problem which we had among the Gaue.
DR. SAUTER: Why?
VON SCHIRACH: Because-I learned the details only from other persons in Berlin, after I had received my mission from Hitler-in Vienna the population had sobered considerably after the first wave of enthusiasm over the Anschluss had subsided. Herr Buerckel, my predecessor, had brought many officials to Vienna from the outside; and the German system of administration, which was in no wise more practicable or efficient than the Austrian, was introduced there. This resulted in a certain over-organization in the administrative field, and Buerckel had started on a Church policy which was more than unsatisfactory. Demonstrations took place under his administration. On one occasion the palace of the archbishop was damaged. Theaters and other places of culture were not taken care of as they should have been. Vienna was experiencing a feeling of great disillusionment. Before I got there I was informed that if one spoke in the streetcars with a North-German accent, the Viennese took an unfriendly attitude..
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what duties did you have or what of flees did you hold in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: In Vienna I had the office of Reich Governor (Reichsstatthalter), which included two administrations, the municipal administration and the national administration. In addition, I was Reich Defense Commissioner for Wehrkreis XVII, but only until 1942. In 1942, the Wehrkreis was subdivided, and each Gauleiter of the Wehrkreis became his own Reich Defense Commissioner.
DR. SAUTER: And then you also were Gauleiter?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I was also Gauleiter, the highest official of the Party.