dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. Let us look at some other testimony. The former Prime Minister of the so-called Protectorate, Dr. Krejci, during the interrogations on 8 November 1945, stated . . . Mr. President, this excerpt can be found on Page 17 of the English text of the Document USSR-60. Krejci testified: "I know that the gymnastic associations were disbanded and their property confiscated at the order of the Reich Protector, and their funds and equipment handed over to be used by German associations such as SS, SA, Hitler Youth, and so on. On 1 September 1939, when Poland was attacked by the German Army, arrests took place on a large scale, especially arrests of army officers, intellectuals, and important political personalities. The arrests were made by the Gestapo, but it could not be done without the approval of the Reich Protector." I am reading into the record one more excerpt from the next page of the testimony: "As far as the Jewish problem was concerned, the Government of the Protectorate was forced by the Reich Protector into a campaign against the Jews, and when this pressure had not the desired result, the Germans-or the Reich Protector's office-started persecuting the Jews according to the German laws. The result was that tens of thousands of Jews were persecuted and lost their lives and property." Are you going to deny this testimony, too?
VOW NEURATH: With reference to the order which you mentioned at the beginning, concerning the sport clubs, I have to tell you that that was a police measure which I had not ordered; and I go on to repeat, as I said yesterday, that the arrests at the beginning of the war were carried out by the Gestapo, by direct order from Berlin, without my even having heard about the matter. I did not learn about it until afterward. Finally, with reference to the Jewish problem which is mentioned in the end, the statement which is contained in the Indictment, I think, namely, that I had attempted to get the Government of Czechoslovakia to introduce anti-Jewish laws, is an incorrect statement. I, or rather my State Secretary, talked to Mr. Elias, as far as I know. I myself have never talked to him. I talked to Mr. Hacha only afterward on a later occasion, when there was an attempt to introduce racial laws with reference to the Czechs; Mr. Hacha objected to this and I told him he did not have to do this, as this was my responsibility. The introduction of the anti-Jewish laws was carried out by a decree of mine, to be sure, because as early as the beginning of April 1939, I had received orders to introduce the anti-Jewish legislation in the Protectorate which was not incorporated in the Reich. I delayed this step until July by means of all sorts of inquiries in Berlin, so as to give time to the Jews to prepare themselves in some way or other. These are the actual facts.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Tell me, do you know Dr. Havelka?
VON NEURATH: I know Herr Havelka, yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: He knew exactly about your conversation with Hacha?
VON NEURATH: Well, how much he knew about that, I do not know. Herr Havelka came to see me once or twice. He was Transport Minister, I think.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, that is quite correct. He was the Minister of Transport, but before that, he was the head of the chancellery of Hacha's office. Havelka, during his interrogation on 9 November last year, gave the following testimony, which can be found on Pages 18 and 19 of the English text of Exhibit USSR-60-I am quoting an excerpt: "He"-Neurath-"was not interested in the Czech nation and interventions of Cabinet members and Dr. Hacha pressing Czech demands were on the whole without any result. "There were the following actions in particular: "Arrests of Czechoslovak officers, intelligentsia, members of the Czechoslovak Legion of the first World War, and politicians. At the time of the attack on Poland by the German Army about six to eight thousand persons were arrested. They were hostages. The Germans themselves called them 'held in protective custody.' The majority of those hostages were never interrogated, and all steps taken at the office of the Reich Protector in favor of these unfortunate men remained without any result. "Neurath, as the only representative of the Reich Government in the territory of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, was responsible for the execution of nine students on 17 November 1939. The execution was carried out soon after..."
THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, would it not be better and perhaps fairer to the defendant to ask him one question at a time? You are reading long passages of these documents which contain many questions. Perhaps you could take these two paragraphs you read now about the arrest of officers and ask him whether he says those are true or untrue, and then go on to the other paragraphs you want. It is very difficult for him to answer a great number of questions at one time.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, he has these documents before him and he is acquainted with the testimonies in question, but I will take into consideration what you have just told me. I will speak about the shooting of the students separately. [Turning to the defendant.] Do you corroborate this part of the evidence which I have just read into the record regarding the hostages?
VON NEURATH: About the arrest of the members of the socalled Vlayka, at the beginning of September 1939, I have spoken earlier, and I spoke in detail about that yesterday. I said that these arrests-I am repeating it once more-were carried out by the Gestapo without my knowledge. Herr Havelka's statement, that no steps had been taken in the interest of these people, is untrue. He ought to know that I continuously fought for these people and that a large number of them were released through my efforts.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well, let us go over to another question. Here, before this Tribunal, a certain document has already been introduced several times under Document Number USSR-223. This is the diary of Frank. Mr. President, I am not referring to Karl Hermann Frank, who was sentenced to die for his crimes, but it is the Defendant Frank that I am speaking about. This excerpt has already been quoted here, but I should like to put a question to the defendant about it. I shall read it into the record. During an interview with a correspondent of the Volkischer Beobachter in 1942, the Defendant Frank stated as follows: "In Prague, for instance, some red placards were put out saying that seven Czechs were being shot that day. Then I told myself if I had to issue an order for such placards to be put up regarding every seven Poles who were shot, then there would not be enough timber in Poland to manufacture enough paper for such placards." Please tell me if it is true that such red placards were put up in Prague?
VON NEURATH: I mentioned that yesterday. I have already said yesterday that this was the poster where my signature was misused, and that I had not seen it in advance. That is that red poster.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, if you have not seen these posters, will you please look at them. We are going to show it to you right now.
VON NEURATH: Yes, I know it very well.
THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, he did not say he had not seen it. He said it was put up without his knowledge.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am going to come back to this, but I should like to establish that these were the red posters which were mentioned by Frank in his diary, and I should like to submit this poster under Document Number USSR-489. I should like to read it into the record; it is very short and it will not take much time. The text is as follows: "In spite of repeated serious warnings, a number of Czech intellectuals, in collaboration with émigré circles abroad, are trying to disturb peace and order in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia by committing major or minor acts of resistance. In this connection it was possible to prove that the ringleaders of these resistance acts are especially to be found in the Czech universities. Since on 28 October and 15 November these elements gave way to acts of physical violence against individual Germans, the Czech universities have been closed for the duration of 3 years, nine of the perpetrators have been shot, and a considerable number of the participants have been arrested. "Signed, The Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, Freiherr van Neurath, Prague, 17 November 1939." You state here that you never signed this warning? Have I understood you rightly?
VON NEURATH: Yes, indeed. I have already explained yesterday or the day before how this came about, namely, in my absence.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, you should not repeat what you have already stated. I am going to read into the record a certain statement by Karl Hermann Frank of 26 November 1945, connected with the subject It can be found on Pages 46 and 47 of the Russian text. The English text will be submitted. Karl Hermann Frank, giving evidence regarding this poster, the text of which I have just read into the record, stated: "This document was dated 17 November 1939 and was signed by Von Neurath who did not object either to the shooting of the nine students..."
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to something connected with this document. The document is neither dated nor is it signed, at least not the copy I have. It does not make it at all clear from whom the document originates, and I should like to take this opportunity to protest against the reading of this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, is there not a certificate about the document?
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Not in my copy.
THE PRESIDENT: Well...
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, will you permit me to explain this misunderstanding. Dr. Von Ludinghausen has the full text of the Document USSR-60. The English text was also submitted to the Tribunal. This document was quoted yesterday by Dr. Ludinghausen. There is a certificate regarding the authenticity of this document signed by the plenipotentiary of the Czechoslovak Government, and there is the date, too. Now, just to facilitate the proceedings, we have submitted another copy of Frank's testimony to Dr. Ludinghausen, and it would be very easy to determine that there is a certificate regarding the authenticity of this statement which is dated 17 November. ..
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: I should like to say the following about this point: When I received this long indictment from Colonel Ecer of the Czech Delegation, the document did not have any additions or appendices, except texts of laws. I therefore endeavored to obtain these additions because reference had been made to them. I then received only one annex to an appendix, or supplement "Number 2"; the others I received in the same condition as the one which I have here.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, will you wait a minute? Will you kindly tell us what document it is you are referring to?
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: It is USSR-60.
THE PRESIDENT: USSR-60-well, that is the Czech report, is it not? ~
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: That is the Czech report, which is about this thick [indicating] in German; that is the one in question. Annexes have also been issued to this, and these annexes, I repeat, were not made available to me; that is, I made a personal effort to get them, but I received only one which is not identical with this document and which I received much later and in the same condition as that which I hold in my hand now, that is to say, without a heading, without a signature, and without a date, and most certainly without any certificate as to when, where, and by whom this supposed statement of Frank's was taken down.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us hear what General Raginsky has got to say about it. As I understand General Raginsky, he says there is a certificate identifying that document and what is being supplied to you is merely a copy, which may not have the date and may not have the certificate on it, but which is the same as the document which is certified. Is that what you said, General Raginsky?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you now show Dr. Von Ludinghausen the certificate and the document which is certified?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: This certificate can be found on Page 44 of the Russian text in the appendix to Document USSR-60 and it is signed for General Ecer by Colonel of the General Staff Corps, Novack. This certificate was submitted, in due course, by us to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it necessary to take up the time of the Tribunal about this particular document? It seems to me we are wasting a lot of time.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: After all, it is important. Otherwise I cannot find out whether it is genuine. That is certainly my right. ~
THE PRESIDENT: I was asking General Raginsky whether he wanted to persist in the use of the document. Is it worth while? I do not know what the document is or what it says.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I consider that is not necessary, because this document has already been submitted to the Tribunal a few months ago and accepted by the Tribunal as evidence. I really do not understand the statements by Dr. Von Ludinghausen.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you not show Dr. Von Ludinghausen that there is a certificate which applies to the document which you put in his hand? ~
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, certainly, Mr. President. I am holding in my hand the Russian text of the certificate. I am quoting the Russian text and I can present it to Dr. Von Ludinghausen so that he can be convinced. The original document has been submitted to the Tribunal and is in the possession of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, is there not a German translation of the certificate and does not the certificate identify the document? Is there a German translation of the certificate?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Just at the moment I do not have it, but during the intermission I shall be glad to produce the original German document.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, the Tribunal is told that this document was put in before and the certificate of General Ecer was put in at the same time, certifying that this document is a part of the Czech report. In those circumstances, the Tribunal will allow the document to be used.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, then I have another objection to the use of this document. As is known, if any interrogation transcripts or affidavits from witnesses are presented, the Defense have the right to summon these witnesses for an interrogation. The former State Secretary Frank, who has made this statement, is, however, as is known, no longer among the living. Therefore, I also object for this reason to the use of this document.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, this document was offered and accepted in evidence during the lifetime of this man, K. H. Frank. That is one reason for accepting it. The document is admissible under Article 21 of the Charter and was submitted under that article and there is no such rule as you have stated, that the Defense are entitled to cross-examine every person who makes an affidavit. It is a matter entirely within the discretion of the Tribunal and therefore that objection is rejected.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I do not want to hold you any longer on this matter but I wanted to show that this was an unnecessary delay as Dr. Von Ludinghausen used the document himself to introduce some extracts from the testimony of Frank in his document book. Now I shall read into the record some statements made by Frank. This document, I repeat, is in connection with the warning dated 17 November 1939 which we just exhibited to this Tribunal, and signed by Von Neurath, who did not raise his voice either against the shooting of the nine students nor as to the number of students who were to be sent to concentration camps, and he did not really request any changes in this legislation. [Turning to the defendant.] Did you hear the testimony, Defendant?
VON NEURATH: Yes, I have read it. MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY Do you deny this?
VON NEURATH: But most definitely. There was no possibility whatever of my doing so because I was not in Prague and consequently I could neither have had any knowledge of it, nor could I have signed it or passed it on.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. You still insist on stating that the Police never informed you regarding the arrests which were made and other police measures which were taken? Do you state that firmly?
VON NEURATH: I did not say that they never informed me, but that they always informed me afterward. My information always came from Czech sources.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Was not the state of affairs such that the Police regularly reported to you regarding the important events which took place?
VON NEURATH: Not at all. In particular I never learned anything about what they were planning, at least not until afterward- or if I had learned it from Czech sources and then made inquiries with the Police.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well. I am going to read an extract from the testimony of Karl Hermann Frank, dated 7 March 1946. This testimony was submitted by me to the Tribunal yesterday and it was partially read by me already. Will you give a copy of the testimony, USSR-494, to the defendant, please? Frank states: "The Reich Protector, Von Neurath, regularly received reports on the most important events in the Protectorate which had some bearing on the Security Police, from me, from the State Secretary, as well as from the Chief of the Security Police. For example, Von Neurath was informed in the special case concerning the student demonstrations in November 1939 both by me and by the Chief of the Security Police. This case dealt with Hitler's direct orders demanding the shootings of all the ringleaders. The number of ringleaders was to be fixed by the Prague Stapo and the Reich Protector was informed about this. In this case an estimate on the number of the ringleaders was left to the discretion of the State Police, or rather to the approval of the Reich Protector. Reich Protector Von Neurath signed the official dispatch announcing the execution of these students, thereby approving this action. It can therefore not be said that in this case the Reich Protector was merely responsible for the carrying out of the general Hitler order which deals with the execution of all ringleaders, but that he is also responsible for the fixing of the number of ringleaders, namely nine. I informed him in detail about the interrogation and he signed the poster. "If this had not met with his approval and had he wished to revise it, as for instance, making it less severe, which he had the right to do, then I should have had to abide by his decision." Now do you deny these statements?
VON NEURATH: Yes; I do not know how many times I have got to tell you that I was not in Prague at all. And besides I do not know under what sort of pressure Frank might have made these statements. It does not give the date, but you just said that he made this statement on 7 April, and therefore a few days before his execution.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I should like the Tribunal to note that the defendant is deliberately distorting the facts. I repeated several times that these statements were made by Frank on 7 March and not on 7 April, or 2 days before the execution, as you are telling me now. The document is before you and you can look at it yourself and see the date.
VON NEURATH: All right, then 7 March instead of 7 April. I think I said 7 April because I did not see the date at the. top. But as I have said-I think I have already told you three times-I could not have known anything at all about it because I was not there.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well. But you are making too many mistakes. Yesterday when giving testimony you were not very clear as to the number of students, either.
VON NEURATH: I cannot remember what I said yesterday, but I could hardly have made so many mistakes; I do not know if there were one or two less.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I would like to remind you. Yesterday, in reply to a question by Sir David, who submitted to you Document 3858-PS, from which it was evident that after the closing of the higher institutions of learning, 18,000 students found themselves out of school...
THE PRESIDENT: Is it necessary to go over Sir David's crossexamination again? Surely we have said that we do not want h go over the same subject twice.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I do not want to go back to the very same thing, and I do not want to add anything to the questions put by Sir David who has carried out a very detailed interrogation. I wanted only to establish the truth. When the defendant stated yesterday that in the document which was submitted by Sir David there was a mistake-that in Prague there existed only two institutions of higher learning and that 12,000 students could not have been arrested, this was not correct. The question was not merely about the closing of two Prague universities, but, on the basis of the order of 17 November 1939, there were closed the Czech university in Prague, the Czech university in Brunn, the Czech Higher Technical School in Brunn, the Czech Higher Technical School in Prague...
THE PRESIDENT: We heard all this yesterday, and we do not want to hear it again. We heard all about the closing of the university in Prague.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well, Mr. President. I just wanted to state that not 2 universities were closed, but 10 institutions of higher learning. I have just a few questions left which I should like to put to the defendant. [Turning to the defendant.] You received many awards from Hitler, as is evident from the documents, and as you yourself stated. For instance, on 22 September 1940 you received the Iron Cross for Military Service. For what kind of services did you receive this award from Hitler?
THE PRESIDENT: Surely we went into this yesterday, did we not, in Sir David's cross-examination, or in the examination-in-chief, I forget which? I think it was the examination-in-chief-all these decorations which were given the defendant.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I do not want to revert to these orders, but I should like to ask the defendant, for what special services he received the Iron Cross from Hitler in 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, ask him that.
VON NEURATH: Unfortunately, I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you what sort of merits I am supposed to have displayed. The award of this order of merit was made generally to all higher officials who were in service at the time.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well, I am not going to insist on your reply. I just wanted to state here that you received this award in 1940 after the mass terror was applied against the Czechoslovak population.
VON NEURATH: I do not know that I am supposed to have carried out a mass terror.