dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SEYSS-INQUART: I had the authority over the special police court, but not over the Higher SS and Police Leader. I remained the top court administrator, even for the police court in an emergency state. All the same I could not give executive orders to the Police. Anyway, this police law existed in the Netherlands for two weeks at the most.
M. DEBENEST: It . is nevertheless certain that we here find special tribunals and that you entrusted them to the Police Leader.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, that is correct, but only within the scope of police courts in an emergency state, and what the police courts did at that time I assume responsibility for. This was on occasion of the general strike in May 1943.
M. DEBENEST: Well, we quite agree then. You did entrust these emergency courts to the Police. Very well, I will now have you shown Document 3430-PS. This document is a collection of all the speeches which you made during the occupation of the Netherlands. Will you please take...
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, is that the only reference you are making to this Document Number 860?
M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President, I am only concerned with the second part. The first part concerns the Police.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think it is imposing a very heavy burden on the Translation Department? There are 18 pages of it.
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I quite agree with you. I intended to use this document for the police organization, which is in the first part. But I did not think it was necessary to do so right now because I wished to save time.
THE PRESIDENT: I only mean this: If you are only going to use a small part of the document it does not seem necessary to make the Translation Department, who have a very great deal of work to do, translate 18 pages of it. Here's another one-F-803, which has got many more than 18 pages in it, and of which very little use has been made. But go on.
M. DEBENEST: I know, Mr. President. I did not use more of it because the Tribunal considered that it dealt with details which it did not consider important. That is the only reason.
THE PRESIDENT: You have passages on each of these 18 pages? I am very much surprised.
M. DEBENEST: Certainly not, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, anyway.
M. DEBENEST: Very well, we will now pass to another subject. When you arrived in Holland, didn't that country possess very considerable stocks of foodstuffs and of raw materials?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, a great many supplies were on hand. An extraordinary amount.
M. DEBENEST: Were not important requisitions made during the first years of the occupation?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, in accordance with a decree within the scope of the Four Year Plan all supplies were requisitioned and a 6 months' reserve supply was set up in the Netherlands with the obligation on the part of the Reich to supply all further needs as required.
M. DEBENEST: You therefore claim that these stocks were to be reserved for the Dutch population?
SEYSS-INQUART: Certainly.
M. DEBENEST: Certainly? Very well. Will you take the document which I have shown to you this morning, 997-PS, Pages 9 and 10.
SEYSS-INQUART: Do I have the document before me?
M. DEBENEST: Page 12 of the French text and Page 11 of the German. You write: "The stocks of raw materials have been collected and with the agreement of the Field Marshal have been distributed in such a manner that a quota sufficient to keep Dutch economy running for 6 months will be left behind. Raw material quotas and food rationing, et cetera, will be assigned the same way as in the Reich. Considerable stocks of raw materials have been guaranteed for the Reich, such as, for example, 70,000 tons of industrial fats which represents about one-half of the amount which the Reich still needs."
SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that coincides with the description I have just given you.
M. DEBENEST: But I thought you said that the stocks were at the disposal of the Dutch people and not for the Reich?
SEYSS-INQUART: No, that is an error in transmission. I said that the supplies were confiscated and enough left there for only 6 months and that future needs would be supplied by the Reich in the same proportion as the Reich was supplied. But primarily these stocks were confiscated for the Reich.
M. DEBENEST: Very well, the translation did not come through. You received numerous complaints about these requests, didn't you?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.
M. DEBENEST: And what measures did you take?
SEYSS-INQUART: The attention of the gentlemen who were with me, that is, Secretary General Hirschfeld and the other secretaries, was called to the fact this was a strict directive in the framework of the Four Year Plan. In some cases I may have transmitted the complaints to the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, if the stocks were taken away in what seemed to me excessive quantities.
M. DEBENEST: In addition to these requests, were there not mass purchases made by the Reich?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes...
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we adjourn now? Will you be much longer, M. Debenest?
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, everything will depend upon the length of the answers which the defendant will make, but I think that in half an hour or three-quarters of an hour at the most I shall have finished.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then we will adjourn. [The Tribunal adjourned until 12 June 1946 at 1000 hours.]
MARSHAL (Colonel Charles W. Mays): May it please the Tribunal, the report is made Defendants Hess and Jodl are absent.
M. DEBENEST: Defendant, you agree that very important stocks were sent to Germany?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, that is quite true.
M. DEBENEST: Concerning another system, for pillage, used in the Netherlands, I would like to submit to you a document which indicates moreover that you were not the only one to participate in this, pillage; but Goering and the OKW are involved too. This is Document F-868, which becomes Exhibit RF-1530. It concerns a teletype message which is addressed to you by the OKW and which is signed Reinecke. This teletype message is dated 5 December 1940 and begins as follows: "Meeting at the office of the Reich Marshal on 7 October 1940. Regulation concerning the dispatch and the taking of merchandise from Holland by members of the Armed Forces or of the units attached to it. "In agreement with the Reich Marshal and the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Netherlands territories, the regulations in force up to now concerning the dispatch and the taking of merchandise out of Holland are rescinded. Members of the Armed Forces and of the units, organizations and affiliations attached to it"-then follow the designations of these organizations-"as well as the officials of the services employed in Holland, can, within the means at their disposal, send home by military post packages of a maximum weight of 1,000 grams, without any limit on their number. If the parcels weigh more than 250 grams...." I won't read what follows; it deals with a question of postal rates. "The taking along of merchandise on the occasion of furlough or other crossing of the frontier is not subject to any restriction." This regulation was drawn up with your agreement, was it not?
SEYSS-INQUART: "Agreement" is putting it a little strongly in this case. An authority for confiscation is not involved here, but rather only instructions for transport. These things had to be bought in some manner. They could not be confiscated. The Reich Marshal decreed this and I put it into force. That was the so-called "Schlepp-Erlass," meaning that any soldier who returned from the Netherlands could bring with him as much as he could carry of any of the things he had bought. And I then gave this order for civilians in accordance with the military decree. I believe this decree was rescinded after 2 years, for the fact was constantly brought up that it, in particular, promoted the black market.
M. DEBENEST: I did not say that it concerned requisitions. Yesterday I said to you that there had been mass requisitions and you answered that this was correct. Today I tell you, and I submit this document in order to demonstrate to you, that there was also another way of pillaging the produce of the Netherlands.
SEYSS-INQUART: But previously you did mention confiscation. I only wanted to correct that point.
M. DEBENEST: I merely spoke yesterday of it. Let us go on. Will you tell me what the task was of the Delegate for the Four Year Plan?
SEYSS-INQUART: I do not recall the wording of this decree. I believe it has been read here. At all events it dealt with the organizing of the entire economic wealth within the German sphere of interests in favor of the policy carried on by Germany and during the war, in favor of the war economy, of course.
M. DEBENEST: Who ordered the liquidation of the property of the Freemasons?
SEYSS-INQUART: I must admit that I really do not know that. My attention was called to the case after the property had been confiscated. I assume that this emanated from Himmler by way of Heydrich.
M. DEBENEST: Well, I will refresh your memory, I will have handed to you Document F-865, which becomes Exhibit RF-1531. It concerns a letter which comes from you, doesn't it? It is dated 11 March 1944. It is signed by you, isn't it?
SEYSS-INQUART: That is absolutely correct.
M. DEBENEST: Good. You express yourself as follows in this letter: "Dear Dr. Lammers: "I have had the property of the Freemasons in the Netherlands liquidated. As the liquidation took place through me, that is to say, through a government office, unlike the liquidation in other areas, it is for the Reich Finance Minister to decide on the further utilization thereof. "I have written a letter today to the Reich Finance Minister, and I enclose a copy of it for you. I beg you to support my suggestion." You, therefore, did not hear of this liquidation until after it had been undertaken, since you yourself had undertaken it, isn't that true?
SEYSS-INQUART: I still entirely uphold my first assertion. The question was who decreed this; I understood you to ask me who was the person in the Reich who demanded this. It is a fact that I did not hear about this whole matter until a few months had passed. Then I took over this liquidation and had it carried through to the end through my offices, and then I wrote this letter. Thus the execution rested with me.
M. DEBENEST: You said just now-and I understood the translation very clearly-that you heard of it only after it had been done. You contradicted your own declaration, as I was able to note yesterday on several occasions, when the documents were submitted to you.
SEYSS-INQUART: I did not understand that. Is that a question to me?
M. DEBENEST: I am simply making a remark. Was this liquidation of the property of the Freemasons a big undertaking?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, certainly. I should like to say that it was started by another office. The property was confiscated, then I took over this task and had it carried through by my competent of fives.
M. DEBENEST: Did you make arrangements for the utilization of the funds which this liquidation produced?
SEYSS-INQUART: I made the proposal that this money be given to the Party.
M. DEBENEST: You discussed this beforehand?
SEYSS-INQUART: I wrote a letter as well. I believe the enclosure to my letter to the Finance Minister, which was mentioned just now, contains the proposal that this property be given to the Party.
M. DEBENEST: Did you not threaten to let the people of the Netherlands starve as a result of the railroad strike in September 1944? ~ June 46
SEYSS-INQUART: You can look upon it as a threat, but in any event I described it as very probable.
M. DEBENEST: You asked the secretary general to stop this strike?
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, the Tribunal would like to have further investigation as to who ordered the confiscation of the Freemasons' property. Defendant, do you know who ordered the confiscation?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I do. The confiscation was ordered by Heydrich and was set in motion by the Police. Then a trustee of the Party started the actual liquidation and at that stage I took it over and transmitted it to my offices.
M. DEBENEST: At what date was this liquidation ordered?
SEYSS-INQUART: In the first few months. The whole thing went very rapidly. It was only a matter of weeks.
THE PRESIDENT: Was any reason given for it?
SEYSS-INQUART: The Freemasons were declared to be enemies of the Reich according to the decree about the taking over of the property of those who were inimical to the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Was the order of Heydrich in writing?
SEYSS-INQUART: That I can't say. It went to the Security Police, and the commander of the Security Police insured its execution. I assume that it was a teletype message, although this entire action might have been planned in advance.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, do you mean that you carried it out without having any order in writing about it at all?
SEYSS-INQUART: I received a report from the Security Police- it may have been in writing, or it may have been oral-that this confiscation was being carried through by the RSHA, and I took over this matter at this stage. Am; PRESIDENT: What was the amount involved by the confiscation?
SEYSS-INQUART: I believe the final amount of the liquidation was more than 8 or 9 million builders.
THE PRESIDENT: And then I think you said that you proposed that it should be handed over to the Party.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I proposed that these 9 million Builders be turned over to the Party.
THE PRESIDENT: And were they?
SEYSS-INQUART: No, I received no decision. This property must have remained in the Netherlands in some form of securities, probably in treasury bonds.
THE PRESIDENT: You were the Reich Commissioner for the Netherlands, weren't you? What happened to the money?
SEYSS-INQUART: The money was deposited in a bank account, and perhaps Dutch treasury bonds were bought. It was treated as a separate fund, and it was not used.
THE PRESIDENT: But this was all in 1940, wasn't it?
SEYSS-INQUART: I estimate that the liquidation continued until the year 1942, and from that period on the money remained in a bank account.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the bank?
SEYSS-INQUART: That I cannot tell you, Mr. President. But there is no doubt that the Dutch have ascertained this.
THE PRESIDENT: And when you said it was confiscated in the first few months, you meant in 1940, did you?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, immediately after the invasion.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, M. Debenest.
M. DEBENEST: Were the funds from this liquidation utilized in the same way as the money from the liquidation of Jewish property?
SEYSS-INQUART: For the most part the proceeds from the liquidation of Jewish property were transferred to the Administrative Of lice for Property and Pensions. The funds were not absorbed, but certain expenditures were met from them. For instance, the erection of Vught Camp was paid for from these proceeds. The funds derived from the liquidation of Jewish property amounted to perhaps 400 million guilders or slightly more. However, they were not taken over.
M. DEBENEST: How were the funds actually used? Were they used for the purpose of the German Government or for other purposes?
SEYSS-INQUART: The Jewish property, first of all, was confiscated. Then, as far as possible, it was liquidated, and we called that "Aryanization." The proceeds of the Aryanization were pooled in the Administrative Office for Property and Pensions, but as a whole were not...
M. DEBENEST: Pardon me, but will you answer more directly without recounting to us how this liquidation was effected. I asked you about the utilization of the funds.
SEYSS-INQUART: The funds were not used at all. The 400 million guilders must have been placed on deposit in the Administrative Office for Property and Pensions of the Netherlands, partly in Dutch treasury bonds and partly in the original securities. Only relatively small amounts were used for certain purposes. I believe the largest amount was 14 million guilders which was used for the erection of Vught Camp. I called the attention of the Reich Finance Minister...
M. DEBENEST: Excuse me. I asked you a question. Were the funds from this liquidation used for the benefit of the Reich? Yes or no?
SEYSS-INQUART: No, unless you call the erection of the Vught Camp using the proceeds for the Reich; but the funds were used because Vught Camp was to be a Jewish assembly camp.
M. DEBENEST: So you consider that the building of the Vught Camp was in the interest of the Dutch?
SEYSS-INQUART: Most certainly it was. The cost of Vught Camp, as far as I was informed, was covered out of this property-I believe 14 million guilders were spent-because this camp was to be a Jewish assembly camp. It was only later that Himmler transformed this into a concentration camp.
M. DEBENEST: That is an opinion, and the Tribunal will decide about it. But regarding the property of the Freemasons, what was done with the sums produced by this liquidation, exactly how were they utilized-for the Reich, or also for the construction of concentration camps in the Netherlands?
SEYSS-INQUART: Neither the one nor the other.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, he has said already, hasn't he-I thought he said quite clearly on deposit in some unknown bank, and that there were about 400 million which came from the Jews.
SEYSS-INQUART: Mr. President, I know the bank. The property of the Jews is deposited in the "Vermogens-Verwaltungs und Rentenanstalt."
M. DEBENEST: Well, I am now going to submit to you a document, which is a letter, Number F-864, which becomes RF-1532. This document states exactly the destination of the property which was thus liquidated. First, you indicate at the beginning of the letter that the total resulting from the liquidation amounted, as you say, to 6,134,662 guilders up to that date, and you indicate that this sum is located in the Reich Foundation (Reichsstiftung) of the Netherlands. This is a German organization, and not a Dutch organization, as far as I understand. You indicate further on how the various sums were to be allocated.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you don't need trouble about the details of where it is. He says it is there in the bank.
M. DEBENEST: Exactly, Mr. President, I would merely like to read the few lines at the end where he states exactly the purpose of the allocation of the various sums. "I believe I am complying with your intentions if I assume, with reference to this liquidated Freemasons' property, that it too, as we discussed with reference to Jewish property, should be used for specific purposes within the Netherlands, according to an agreement to be reached between us." Consequently, your intention was to use the sums in the same manner as the Jewish fortunes, wasn't it?
SEYSS-INQUART: It doesn't say that at all.
M. DEBENEST: We have it in writing. That's still better.
SEYSS-INQUART: The purpose of utilization is perfectly plain. The Reich Minister of Finance wanted to exercise control over Jewish capital; and I called his attention to the fact that it had not been called in, suggesting to him not to call this money into the Reich but to wait and see what the course of events would be.
M. DEBENEST: Were you not proposing to him here that it should be utilized for the same purpose?
SEYSS-INQUART: I suggested to him to use it for certain purposes in the Netherlands, that is, not to send this money into the Reich, but to leave it in the Netherlands; but the use to which it was to be put was left entirely open. He wanted to bring it to the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, I think you can pass on.
M. DEBENEST: I was just thinking that we could leave that to the judgment of the Tribunal. Let us come back to the matter of these railroad strikes. Did you not ask the secretaries general to stop these strikes?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes.
M. DEBENEST: Did you not put an embargo on the means of transport and on the food in transit?
SEYSS-INQUART: Certainly.
M. DEBENEST: That was you, was it not?
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, I said that yesterday.
M. DEBENEST: Consequently, you knew very well at that time what the food situation was in Holland and the grave consequences which would inevitably result from the decision which you made-a very serious decision.
SEYSS-INQUART: No, not really. The fact was that traffic had already been disrupted because of requisitioning by the Armed Forces, and it was only a question of finding a modes vivendi and after insuring the needs of the Armed Forces, which appeared urgent to me, of resuming the transport of foodstuffs into Holland. If the railroad strike had not taken place, I would have succeeded in persuading the Armed Forces to refrain from requisitioning, and navigation would have been left undisturbed.
M. DEBENEST: But we are not discussing the Armed Forces. You knew very well that the moment you placed this embargo on ships, on the fleet, that it was the time when they were transporting foodstuffs for the winter to Holland.
SEYSS-INQUART: Yes, at the moment when I declared the embargo, there was actually no more traffic; and the few ships carrying food were requisitioned by the Armed Forces together with the foodstuffs.
M. DEBENEST: Then your decision was useless?
SEYSS-INQUART: No, because in making this decision I prevailed upon the Armed Forces to make the requisitioning as short as possible and they promised me that the ships which I earmarked would not be interfered with by them.
M. DEBENEST: How long did this embargo last?
SEYSS-INQUART: I believe that between 15 and 20 October I instructed the chief of my traffic department to lift the embargo. Actually, it lasted some weeks longer because the Dutch traffic organization didn't function.
M. DEBENEST: Until what date, approximately?
SEYSS-INQUART: It may have lasted until the middle of November.
M. DEBENEST: Was not that the period when the traffic was heaviest?
SEYSS-INQUART: That is quite correct. In November and December we could only bring enough foodstuffs to Holland to tide us over these 6 weeks of frost, at the most; and in September I was of the firm conviction that in November and December the shipping facilities would be at my disposal.
M. DEBENEST: And actually, did you obtain. them?
SEYSS-INQUART: Unfortunately, no. For due to the failure of the Dutch traffic authorities, coupled with the other war conditions, these facilities were not at my disposal.
M. DEBENEST: But you knew very well that the decision which you were making was fraught with grave consequences?
SEYSS-INQUART: In September this decision was not as serious as the fact that the Armed Forces, in view of the railroad strike, was in sore need of this transport and these facilities; and as it was up to me to safeguard the Reich's interests, there could be no graver accusation against me than for the German people to say that I did not do everything humanly possible to help to win the struggle.
M. DEBENEST: The Tribunal will take note of your answer.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, you dealt with the subject yesterday, didn't you?
M. DEBENEST: I do not think I did, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the embargo on shipping surely was gone into yesterday.
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I think I spoke yesterday only of the requisitions which were carried out and I only asked one or two questions of an economic nature. I do not think I touched upon this subject. If I did, I apologize to the Tribunal. In any case, I am finished with it. [Turning to the defendant.] What was the position of the Netherlands Bank on your arrival in 1940?
SEYSS-INQUART: The Netherlands Bank as an issuing bank was, I believe, set up primarily on the basis of a private bank. The president was Mr. Trip. The State probably had a certain influence, since it served as the issuing bank.
M. DEBENEST: Give us a briefer explanation.
SEYSS-INQUART: Then it would not be stating the whole truth.
M. DEBENEST: Did the gold reserves cover the amount of notes issued?