dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR.SEIDL: What were the tasks you had to fulfil at different times in the Government General-in broad outline.
BILFINGER: In 1940 I had the task of taking over from the Government General a number of branches of the police administration and working in that connection under the Higher SS and Police Leader.
DR. SEIDL: What was the legal position of the Higher SS and Police Leader, and what was his relation to the Governor General? Did the Higher SS and Police Leader receive his instructions concerning the Security Police and the SD from the Governor General? Or did he receive them direct from the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the Police, that is, Himmler?
BILFINGER: The Higher SS and Police Leader from the very beginning received his instructions direct from the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler.
DR.SEIDL: Is it furthermore true that the commander of the Security Police and of the SD in the Government General also received direct orders and instructions from Amt IV, the Gestapo, and from Amt V, the Criminal Police in the RSHA?
BILFINGER: Yes, the commander of the Security Police received many orders direct from the various departments of the RSHA, particularly from departments IV and V.
DR. SEIDL: Did the institution of the State Secretariat for Security, which. occurred in 1942, bring about a change in the legal position of the Governor General with reference to measures of the Security Police and the SD?
BILFINGER: The appointment of a State Secretary as such did not alter the legal position of the Governor General or of the State Secretary. New spheres of activity were merely added to the State Secretariat for Security.
DR.SEIDL: Do you know of a decree of Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police, Himmler, in the year 1939, and what were its contents?
BILFINGER: I knew of a decree, probably dated 1939, dealing with the appointment of the Higher SS and Police Leader, which ruled that the Higher SS and Police Leader would receive his instructions direct from Himmler. DR" SEIDL: The institution of the State Secretariat dated from 7 May 1942 and was based on a Fuehrer decree. The application of this decree called forth another decree dated 3 June 1942, which dealt with the transfer of official business to the State Secretary for Security. Do you know the contents of that decree?
BILFINGER: The essential contents of the decrees which you have mentioned are known to me.
DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that on the basis of this decree the entire Political Police and the Criminal Police, as had been the case before, were again subordinated to the State Secretary for Security within the framework of the Security Police?
BILFINGER: These two branches from the very beginning were under the Higher SS and Police Leader, and later on under the State Secretary for Security. To this extent the decree did not bring about a change, but was merely a confirmation.
DR.SEIDL: Is it known to you that in Appendix B of that decree there are 26 paragraphs in which all the branches of the Security Police are transferred to the Higher SS and Police Chief as State Secretary for Security?
BILFINGER: Yes.
DR.SEIDL: Do you know that in this decree, in Appendix B. Jewish matters are also mentioned specifically?
BILFINGER: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: Do you know that in Paragraph 21 of Appendix B it is ruled: "The special fields of the Security Police: Representation of the Government General at conferences and meetings, particularly with the central offices of the Reich, which deal with the above-mentioned special fields."?
BILFINGER: I know that as far as the sense is concerned, such a ruling was contained therein. Whether Paragraph 21 or another paragraph was worded this way I don't remember.
DR. SEIDL: Is it also true that on the basis of this decree the last remains of the administrative police were removed from the administration of the Government General and handed over to the State Secretary for Security, who was directly under Himmler.
BILFINGER: That was the intention and the purpose of this decree. But, contrary to the wording of that decree, only a few branches were taken away from the administration; concerning the remainder a fight ensued later. The result was, however, that all branches of the police administration were taken away.
DR. SEIDL: Witness, did the administration of the Government General have anything to do with the establishment and administration of concentration camps?
BILFINGER: To the best of my knowledge, no.
DR. SEIDL: You were with the Chief of the Security Police and SD in Krakow. When did you yourself hear of concentration camps at Maidanek, Treblinka, and Lublin for the first time?
BILFINGER: May I correct you, I was attached to the Commander of Security Police.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, the Commander of the Security Police.
BILFINGER: I heard of Maidanek for the first time when Lublin and Maidanek were occupied by the Russians; and through propaganda I heard for the first time what the name Maidanek meant, when the then Governor General Frank ordered an investigation regarding events in Maidanek and responsibility for these events.
DR. SEIDL: According to your own observation, generally speaking, what were the relations like between the Govern or General and the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, and what were the reasons for those relations?
BILFINGER: Relations between them were very bad from the beginning. The reasons were partly questions of organization and of the use of the Police, and partly essential differences of opinion.
DR SEIDL: What do you mean by essential differences of opinion? Do you mean different opinions regarding the treatment of the Polish population?
BILFINGER: I can still recollect one example which concerned the confirmation of police court-martial sentences by Governor General Frank. I opposition to Krueger's opinion, he either failed to confirm a number of sentences or else mitigated them considerably. In this connection I remember such differences of opinion.
DR. SEIDL: Were these sentences which were passed in connection with the so-called AB Action?
BILFINGER: I know nothing of an AB Action.
DR. SEIDL: You came to the Government General later, did you?
BILFINGER: I came to the Government General in August 1940.
DR.SEIDL: I have no further questions for this witness. Are PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to ask questions?
DR. RUDOLF MERKEL (Counsel for Gestapo): May I put a few questions to the witness? Witness, the Prosecution states that the State Police was a circle of persons formed in accordance with a common plan, and that membership in it was voluntary. Since you had an especially high position in the RSHA, I ask you to tell me briefly what you know about these questions?
BILFINGER: Of the members of the Secret State Police only a small part were volunteers. The former officials, the officials of the former political department of the headquarters of the Commissioner of the Police, constituted the nucleus of the membership of the Secret State Police. The various local police head of flees were created from these former political departments of the central police headquarters, and at the same time practically all the officials from these former political departments were taken over. In Berlin, for example, it was Department I-A of the central police headquarters. Apart from that, administrative officials were transferred from other administrative authorities to the Secret State Police, or were detailed to go here. As time went on people from administrations and offices were forced to transfer to the Secret State Police. Thus, for instance, the entire frontier customs service was transferred to the Secret State Police in 1944 by order of the Fuehrer. At about the same time the whole of the intelligence service was transferred. In the course of the war numerous members of the Waffen-SS who were no longer eligible for active military service were detailed to the Secret State Police. In addition many people who originally had had nothing to do with police work were drafted as emergency members to the Secret State Police.
DR. MERKEL: If I summarize it by saying that the Secret State Police was a Reich authority and that the German civil service law applied to its employees, is that correct?
BILFINGER: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: Was it possible for the officials to resign from the Secret State Police easily?
BILFINGER: It was extremely difficult and, in fact, impossible to resign from the Secret State Police. One could resign only in very special circumstances.
DR. MERKEL: It has been stated here with reference to the composition of the Secret State Police personnel that there was the following proportion: executive officers about 20 percent; administrative officials about 20 percent; and technical personnel approximately 60 percent. Are these figures about right?
BILFINGER: I have no general information about the composition of the personnel; but for certain offices about which I knew more these figures would probably apply.
DR. MERKEL: Under whose jurisdiction were the concentration camps in Germany and in the occupied countries?
BILFINGER: The concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of the Economic Administration Main office under SS Gruppenfuehrer Pohl.
DR. MERKEL: Did the Secret State Police have anything to do with the administration of the concentration camps?
BILFINGER: No. It may be that at the beginning certain concentration camps here and there were administered directly by the Secret State Police for a short period. That was probably the case in individual instances. But in principle even at that time, and later on without exception, the concentration camps were administered by the Economic Administration Main Office.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know at all who gave orders for the liquidations which took place in the concentration camps?
BILFINGER: No, I know nothing about that.
DR. MERKEL: Can you say anything about the grounds for protective custody? On the strength of what legal rulings was protective custody decreed after 1933?
BILFINGER: Protective custody was based on the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and the State, of February 1933, in which a number of the basic rights of the Weimar Constitution were rescinded.
DR. MERKEL: Was there later a decree by the Minister of the Interior which dealt with protective custody, at the end of 1936 or the beginning of 1937?
BILFINGER: Yes, at that time the Protective Custody Law was drawn up. The legal basis as such remained in force. At that time power to decree protective custody was confined to the Secret State Police. Before that a number of other offices, rightly or wrongly, had decreed protective custody. To prevent this, protective custody was then confined to the Secret State Police.
DR. MERKEL: Is it correct that for some time you were in France. In what capacity were you there?
BILFINGER: In the late summer and autumn of 1943 I was commander of the Security Police in France, in Toulouse.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything about an order from the RSHA, or from the commander of the Sipo for France, or from individual district commanders, to the effect that ill-treatment or torture was to be applied when prisoners were interrogated?
BILFINGER: No, I do not know of such orders.
DR. MERKEL: Then how do you explain the ill-treatment and atrocities which actually took place in connection with interrogations, proof of which has been given by the Prosecution?
BILFINGER: It is possible that ill-treatment did occur; in a number of cases this either took place in spite of its being forbidden, or else it was committed by members of other German offices in France which did not belong to the Security Police.
DR. MERKEL: Did you, while you were active in France, hear of any such ill-treatment either officially or by hearsay?
BILFINGER: I never heard of any such ill-treatment at the hands of members of the German police or the German Armed Forces. I heard only of cases of ill-treatment carried out by groups consisting of Frenchmen who were being employed by some German authority.
DR. MERKEL: Were there so-called Gestapo prisons in France?
BILFINGER: No, the Security Police in France did not have prisons of their own. They handed over their prisoners to the detention camps of the German Armed Forces.
DR. MERKEL: One last question: The Prosecution has given proof of a large number of crimes against humanity and war crimes which were committed with the participation of the Security Police. Can one say that these crimes were perfectly obvious and were known to all members of the Secret State Police, or were these crimes known only to a small circle of persons who had been ordered directly to carry out the measures concerned? Do you know anything about that?
BILFINGER: I didn't quite understand the question from the beginning. Were you referring to France or to the Security Police in general?
DR. MERKEL: I was referring to the Security Police in general.
BILFINGER: No ill-treatment or torture of any kind was permitted; and, as far as I know, nothing of the kind did happen, still less was it known generally or to a larger circle of persons. I knew nothing about it:
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for 10 minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? Is there nothing you wish to ask arising from Dr. Merkel's cross-examination, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: I have only one more question to ask the witness. Witness, in Paragraph 4 of the decree of 23 June 1942 the following ruling is made, and I quote: "The SS and Police Leaders in the districts are directly subordinate to the governors of the districts, Just as the State Secretary for Security is subordinate to the Governor General." Thus it does not say that the entire police organization is subordinate, but only the police leaders. Now I ask you whether orders which had been issued by the commanders of the Security Police and the SD were forwarded to the governors or were sent directly to the district chiefs of the Security Police and the SD?
BILFINGER: These orders were always sent directly from the commander to the district chiefs d the Security Police and the SD. The commander could give no instructions to the governors.
DR.SEIDL: If I understand you correctly you mean that the Security Police and the SD had their own official channels which had absolutely nothing to do with the administrative construction of the Government General.
BILFINGER: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions for the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. SEIDL: With the permission of the Tribunal, I call as the next witness the former Governor of Krakow, Dr. Kurt von Burgsdorff. [The witness Von Burgsdorff took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
KURT VON BURGSDORFF (Witness): Kurt von Burgsdorff
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: "I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing." [The witness repeated the oath.]
DR.SEIDL: Witness, the Government General was divided into five districts at the head of each of which there was a governor; is that correct?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: From 1 December 1943 until the occupation of your district by Soviet troops you were governor of the district Krakow?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. To use the correct official term, I was . . .
GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Mr. President, the defense counsel has put the question of the "occupation" of this region by Soviet troops. I energetically protest against such terminology and consider it a hostile move.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have just been told that perhaps a mistake in the translation has crept in. All I intended to say was that, in the course of the year 1944, the area of which this witness was governor was occupied by the Soviet troops in the course of military action. I do not know what the Soviet prosecutor is protesting against; it is at any rate far from my intention to make any hostile statement here.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the point was, it was not an occupation, it was a liberation by the Russian Army.
DR. SEIDL: Of course; I did not want to say any more than that the German troops were driven out of this area by the Soviet troops. Witness, will you please continue with your answer?
VON BURGSDORFF: I was entrusted with exercising the duties of a governor-that is the correct official expression. Until a few months ago I was still an officer of the Wehrmacht, and during my entire activity in Krakow I remained an officer of the Wehrmacht.
DR. SEIDL: Witness, according to your observations, what basically was the attitude of the Governor General toward the Polish and Ukrainian people?
VON BURGSDORFF: I want to emphasize that I can answer only for the year 1944. At that time the attitude of the Governor General was that he wished to live in peace with the people.
DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that already in 1942 the Governor General had given the governors the opportunity of setting up administrative committees, comprised of Poles and Ukrainians, attached to the district chiefs?
VON BURGSDORFF: There was a governmental decree to this effect. Whether that was in 1942 or not I do not know.
DR. SEIDL: Did you yourself make use of the authorization contained therein, and did you establish such administrative committees?
VON BURGSDORFF: In the district of Krakow I had such a committee established at once for every district chief.
DR.SEIDL: Witness, according to your observations what was the food situation like in the Government General, and particularly in your district?
VON BURGSDORFF: It was not unsatisfactory; but I must add that the reason for that was that, in addition to the rations, the Polish population had an extensive black market.
DR. SEIDL: According to your observations what was the attitude of the Governor General on the question of the mobilization of labor?
VON BURGSDORFF: He did not wish any workers sent outside the Government General, because he was interested in retaining the necessary manpower within the country.
DR. SEIDL: Was the Church persecuted by the Governor General in the Government General; and what basically was the attitude of the Governor General to this question, according to your observations?
VON BURGSDORFF: Again I can answer only for my district and for the year 1944. There was no persecution of the Church; on the contrary, the relations with churches of all denominations were good in my district. On my travels I always received the clergy, and I never heard any complaint.
DR. SEIDL: Did you have any personal experience with the Governor General with regard to this question?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. In the middle of January 1944 I was appointed District Standortfuehrer by the Governor General, who at the same time was the Party Leader in the Government General; that is, I was appointed to a Party, office for the district of Krakow. I pointed out to him, as I had pointed out to the Minister of the Interior, Himmler, before, that I was a convinced church-going Christian. The Governor General replied that he was in no way perturbed by that and that he knew of no provision in the Party program which prohibited it.
DR. SEIDL: What, according to your observations, were the relations like between the Governor General and the administration of the Government General on the one side, and the Security Police and the SD on the other side?
VON BURGSDORFF: Doubtlessly underneath they were bad, because the Police always ended by doing only what it wanted and did not concern itself with the administration. For that reason in he country districts also there was real friction between the administration offices and the Police.
DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that when you took office, or shortly after, the Governor General issued several instructions referring to the Police? I quote from the diary of the Defendant Dr. Frank, the entry of 4 January 1944: "The Governor General then gave some instructions to Dr. Von Burgsdorff with reference to his new activities. His task will be to inform himself, as a matter of principle, of all decisive factors in the district. Above all the Governor should direct his efforts to opposing energetically any encroachments by the Police."
VON BURGSDORFF: Today I no longer remember that conversation of 4 January 1944, but it may have taken place. However, I do remember that after I took office, at the end of November 1943, I went to see the Governor General once more and told him that I had heard that the relations with the Police were not good and were scarcely tolerable for the administration. He replied that he was doing what he could in order, as I might put it, to bring the Police to reason. It was on the basis of this statement by the Governor General that I definitely decided to remain in the Government General. I had, as is known, told the Reich Minister of the Interior that I was unwilling to go there.
DR SEIDL: In your capacity as Governor did you have any authority to issue commands to the Security Police and the SD in your district?
VON BURGSDORFF: None whatsoever.
DR. SEIDL: Did you yourself ever see a police directive?
VON BURGSDORFF: Never. With the Police, orders are passed down vertically, that is, directly from the Higher SS and Police Leader to the SS and Police Leader respectively-and that is probably the usual way-from the chief of the Security Police to the unit commander of the Security Police.
DR. SEIDL: In your activity as Governor did you have anything to do with the administration of concentration camps?
VON BURGSDORFF: Never.
DR.SEIDL: Do you know who administered the concentration camps?
VON BURGSDORFF: No, not from my own experience; but I have heard that there was some central office in Berlin under the Reichsfuehrer SS.
DR. SEIDL: When did you hear for the first time of the Maidanek concentration camp?
VON BURGSDORFF: From you, about a fortnight ago.
DR. SEIDL: You want to tell the Tribunal under oath . . .
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: . . . that you, although you were Governor of Krakow In the occupied Polish territory, did not learn about that until during your captivity?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes, I am firmly convinced that I heard about this concentration camp from you for the first time.
DR. SEIDL: When did you for the first time hear of the Treblinka concentration camp?
VON BURGSDORFF: Also from you on the same occasion.
DR.SEIDL: Witness, the Governor General is accused by the Prosecution of issuing a summary court-martial decree in the year 1943. What at that time was the security situation in the Government General?
VON BURGSDORFF: Again I can judge only for the year 1944. As the German troops came back from the East, it became worse and worse, so that in my district it became increasingly difficult to carry out any kind of administration.
DR. SEIDL: According to your observations what was the economic situation like in the agricultural and industrial sectors of your district, and is the statement justified that, allowing for wartime conditions, the administration of the Government General had done everything to promote economy?
VON BURGSDORFF: Economy in my district was at full force in 1944 both in industry and in agriculture. Some industries had been transferred from the Reich to the Government General; and, as far as agriculture was concerned, the administration imported large quantities of fertilizers and seeds and the like. Horse breeding was also greatly promoted in my district.