dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, during the recess I had a chance to talk this over with Dr. Sauter. He will give me the interrogatory and measures will be taken to get the necessary replies from the witness in the shortest possible time. Besides this the request of the Tribunal to get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as possible. May I continue now with my interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I stopped at the testimony of Gert Bruno Knittel. Here is what he relates about his service in the German Army: "Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forests, to round up guerrillas and to look for discontent against the German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot immediately. Our ad Company, Field Depot Battalion 375, caught and shot five persons in the woods. Most possibly these persons were not even partisans or guerrillas, but merely citizens who went into the woods for personal matters. But we had orders to shoot all who crossed our path in the woods. I did this together with the other soldiers of my company. "One day in June 1943, in a roundup in the village of Lishaysk, we surrounded the whole place with three to four companies so that no one could leave or enter the village. Outside each house that had to be searched. . ."
THE PRESIDENT: You are cross-examining the Defendant Von Schirach who was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is the testimony of one of the members of the Hitler Jugend regarding his participation in atrocities during his service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This document is translated into German. I need not read it. However, I would like the witness Von Schirach to familiarize himself with this document. Did you read this document? I am asking you this now, Witness, have you read that document?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have read the document. This man Knittel who is testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but belonged either to the Labor Service or to a unit of the Army. Earlier in his life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the Hitler Youth. He states that; but in this case he was acting as a member of some unit of the Armed Forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth. The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. For example, he mentions a Hitler Youth Party...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all the testimony that is given there'
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all this testimony?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In connection with this, do you admit that participation of German youth in similar atrocities was the effect of the special education and preparation of the Hitler Youth?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not admit that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to what time did you hold the post of Reichsstatthalter of Vienna and Reichsleiter of Youth Education?
VON SCHIRACH: I was head of Youth Education from 1931 and Reich Governor of the city of Vienna since 1940.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am interested in knowing to what date, to what moment?
VON SCHIRACH: I held both of these offices until the collapse.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You were telling here in detail about your break with Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you were politically dead. However, you continued to hold your posts to the very end. Therefore your break with Hitler was only theoretical, and in effect entailed no consequences for you. Is that correct?
VON SCHIRACH: That is wrong. I described the consequences which it had for me in my statement either on Thursday or Friday, and I also mentioned at that time that up to the very last moment I kept my oath which I had given to Hitler as Youth Leader, as an official, and as an officer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I should like to put two brief questions to Defendant Von Schirach. The first question, Witness: In the course of the cross-examination you were asked whether you gave the order to hold Vienna until the very last moment and to defend the city to the last man. As far as I remember, you answered that question in the negative. Now, I am interested in knowing in this connection what orders you gave to your subordinates during the last days in Vienna- I mean to the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizerand the then Mayor Blaschke?
VON SCHIRACH: The order for the defense of Vienna originated with Hitler. The defense of Vienna was a matter for the military authorities, that is, the commandant of the city of Vienna, the military commander who was in charge of the 6th SS Panzer Division....
DR. SAUTER: What was his name?
VON SCHIRACH: Sepp Dietrich, and the officer commanding the Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic.
DR. SAUTER: Did they give the orders?
VON SCHIRACH: In carrying out the order which Hitler had given them regarding the defense of Vienna, they defended Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: What orders did you, Witness, give your subordinates in this connection?
VON SCHIRACH: For the defense of Vienna I gave only such orders as related to the Volkssturm, or those dealing with the food supply of the city and similar matters with which I was charged. I personally had nothing to do with the actual defense of the city. For even the work of destruction which was necessary in the course of the military defense of the city is to be traced back to orders which originated from the Fuehrer's headquarters and had been transmitted to the officer commanding the Army group, and to the city commandant.
DR. SAUTER: My second question, Witness: In your crossexamination you were questioned about Document 3763-PS. This is a document which deals with the songs of youth, into which the Prosecution seems to read a different attitude from the one you set forth. Do you wish to supplement your testimony on this point?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I must supplement it briefly..
DR. SAUTER: Please do.
VON SCHIRACH: The Prosecution accuses me concerning a certain song, a song which begins, "We are the black swarms of Geyer, hey, ho"; the chorus of which goes, "Spear them, spike them, put the red cock on the cloister roof," and one verse runs, "We will cry to Him on high that we want to kill the priest." This is a Christian song.
DR. SAUTER: How is that?
VON SCHIRACH: This can be seen in the fourth and fifth verses. It is the song of the Protestant peasants under the leadership of Florian Geyer. The fourth verse goes: "No castle, abbey, and monastery matters. Nothing but the Holy Scripture is of value to us." The next verse goes: "We want the same law from prince down to peasant." Protestantism, too, was once a revolution. The rebel peasants sang this song; and it may serve as an example, this song of the 16th century, like some of the songs of the French revolution. This song may be used as an example to show how, in the beginning, revolutions are radical rather than tolerant.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with this point I should like to conclude my direct examination of the Defendant Von Schirach. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Who were your principal assistants in your office at Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the chief of my Central Office, Hoepken; secondly, the Regierungsprasident Dr. Dellbrugge; thirdly, the Mayor, Blaschke; and fourthly, the Deputy Gauleiter, Scharizer. They were my chief collaborators.
THE PRESIDENT: That makes four, does it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And did they occupy the whole of their time working for you in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: Not all of them. The Deputy Gauleiter had already been functioning under my predecessor, Burckel. Mayor Blaschke, as far as I recall, first became mayor in 1943. His predecessor as mayor was a Herr Jung. The District President, Dr. Dellbrugge, assumed his office in 1940, after my arrival in Vienna. He was sent to me from the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, from the time that you took over the office in Vienna these four men were working for you, is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I should like to mention also that the head of the Central Office, Hoopken, was first of all active under me as adjutant and assumed his position as chief only when the former chief of this office, Obergebietsfuehrer Muller, lost his life in an air raid.
THE PRESIDENT: Which of the four was it who initialed those weekly reports which were received in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: That was the District President, Dr. Dellbrugge.
THE PRESIDENT: Dellbrugge?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And at the time that he received them he was working in your office as one of your principal assistants?
VON SCHIRACH: He was my deputy in the State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: That was your office?
VON SCHIRACH: That was one of my offices.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, one department in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. May I add, by way of explanation, that there were various branches: The State Administration, the Municipal Administration, the Party Management and the Reich Defense Commissariat. The Reich Defense Commissariat and the State Administration were combined as far as their representation was concerned. Everything was co-ordinated in the Central Office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in which department was this principal assistant who initialed these documents? Which department was he head of?
VON SCHIRACH: He held a key position in the office of the Reichsstatthalter as Chief of the State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: Civil administration?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, Civil State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: Was he the Deputy Reich Defense Commissioner?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And you were the Reich Defense Commissioner for the Military District Number XVII, were you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And he was your deputy in that military district?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: He received and initialed those reports in that office, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock. [The Defendant Von Schirach left the stand.]
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with your permission I should like to call to the witness box the witness Lauterbacher. [The witness Lauterbacher took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your lull name?
HARTMANN LAUTERBACHER (Witness): Hartmann Lauterbacher.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that your full name?
LAUTERBACHER: Lauterbacher.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I have already discussed this matter with you in the prison; is that right?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Please pause after each question before you answer so that the interpreters may keep up.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When were you born?
LAUTERBACHER: On 24 May 1909.
DR. SAUTER: 1909?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, 1909.
DR. SAUTER: Are you married?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: You have three children?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What is your profession?
LAUTERBACHER: Druggist.
DR. SAUTER: Retail druggist?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: You are in an American prison?
LAUTERBACHER: In an English prison.
DR. SAUTER: Since when?
LAUTERBACHER: Since 29 May 1945.
DR. SAUTER: Have you been interrogated by the Prosecution on this matter?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: When did you become an official, that is to say, a paid employee of the Hitler Youth?
LAUTERBACHER: I became a paid employee of the Hitler Youth when appointed District Leader (GebietsFuehrer) of the Westphalia Lower Rhine area.
DR. SAUTER: And when was that?
LAUTERBACHER: In April 1932.
DR. SAUTER: April 1932. That was at the age of 23? LAUTERBACHER Yes, at the age of 23.
DR. SAUTER: Before then had you been a member of the HJ? LAUTERBACHER. Yes I was.
DR. SAUTER: Slowly, please, and always wait until the question has been completed before you answer.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: I was asking you if you were already a member of the Hitler Youth when you took up your paid appointment in the year 1932.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 1922, I joined what was then known as the National Socialist Youth Organization. Then, when I was 18 years old, in the year 1927, I accepted the duties of an Unterfuehrer in my home province of the Tyrol . . .
DR. SAUTER: And officially you were . . .
LAUTERBACHER: . . . then I worked in an honorary capacity in Brunswick from 1929 until 1932; and later on I had a paid appointment.
DR. SAUTER: That is to say from 1932?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What was your status in the year 1932? What position did you get then?
LAUTERBACHER: In the year 1932 I was entrusted with the leadership of the area then known as Westphalia-Lower Rhine.
DR. SAUTER: When were you assigned to the Defendant Von Schirach?
LAUTERBACHER: On 22 May 1934.
DR. SAUTER: What was your position under him?
LAUTERBACHER: Stabsfuehrer.
DR. SAUTER: How long did you remain a Stabsfuehrer?
LAUTERBACHER: Until August 1940.
DR. SAUTER: I suppose until the time he resigned his of lice as Reich Youth Leader?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When you took up your paid appointment with the HJ, had you already served with the Army?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Then you had not been an officer?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: You told us, I believe, that since 1934 you had been Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership. What tasks did the Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have an idea of what your jurisdiction was
LAUTERBACHER: As the title of Stabsfuehrer indicates, I was in the first place the chief of the staff of the Reich Youth Leadership. As such, I had the task of dealing with the general directives of the Reich Youth Leader, particularly those concerning the Hitler Youth offices and regions insofar as the Youth Leader did not do that himself. I had to co-ordinate the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership and in particular to deal with matters of an organizational and personal nature. Furthermore, in the years 1935 to 1939 I made a number of journeys abroad at Von Schirach's request.
DR. SAUTER: Who was the deputy of the Reich Youth Leader when he could not act personally?
LAUTERBACHER: I was his deputy on occasions when he was prevented from acting personally.
DR. SAUTER: Then apparently you were the first man in the Reich Youth Leadership after Schirach?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were your relations with Von Schirach purely official, or were you friends as well?
LAUTERBACHER: Our association was not limited only to official matters; we were also personal friends, and so our personal relationship was not interrupted by Schirach's appointment in Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: Do you believe, Herr Lauterbacher-regarding this friendly relationship that you had with Von Schirach-that he concealed certain things from you; or are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you?
LAUTERBACHER: I always have been, and still am today, convinced of the fact that Von Schirach made all his intentions and educational measures known to me.
DR. SAUTER: So he kept nothing from you?
LAUTERBACHER: No, he kept nothing from me. If Schirach had discussions with Adolf Hitler during the earlier years he always informed me immediately afterwards.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the year 1939 the second World War broke out. Did the Defendant Von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the World War, have any discussions with you in which he expressed the view that youth should be educated for war-in other words-that in educating youth the necessities and requirements of future war must be taken into account? What transpired on this point between you and Von Schirach before the war?
LAUTERBACHER: The possibility of war was never discussed. Occasionally I attended Party rallies in the company of Von Schirach; and on these occasions, when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only-on the occasion of these rallies I had the definite and unalterable impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich were determined to maintain peace and to allow matters to follow a peaceful course. That is why it never occurred to me that youth should be trained specifically for war.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in your capacity as Stabsfuehrer of the Reich Youth Leadership, did you have any knowledge about the mail as a whole which either came to Schirach or was dispatched by him?
LAUTERBACHER: I always saw all the official mail.
DR. SAUTER: In the mail which reached Schirach in his of lice, did you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from Hitler, from the Party leadership, from the OKW, or from any other agency, either State or Party, regarding the preparations for war?
LAUTERBACHER: No, neither open nor camouflaged.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, we have already heard about the main functions of youth education in the course of the last few days. I do not believe, Mr. President, that I need go into these subjects in detail. The witness is the person best qualified to give us information, but I think I may take the subject of youth education as clarified.
THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated. ~
DR. SAUTER: Thank you. Then I can pass on to another subject immediately. [Turning to the witness.] You said that you had not been a soldier. Did not Schirach attach importance to the inclusion among his collaborators of a certain number of officers, or at least of men who had served their term of military service and who might be enrolled as instructors? Please be brief.
LAUTERBACHER: No, at first, that is, during the early years of the period of development, Von Schirach rejected officers as youth leaders on ideological and educational grounds. The aim and mission of the Hitler Youth were those of a socialist community and of a socialist state; and the old type of officer of the period, the representative of a reactionary epoch, would have been absolutely incompatible.
DR. SAUTER: Absolutely incompatible? Do you mean with the . . .
LAUTERBACHER: With the principles of education which Schirach had laid down for the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you any idea whether Schirach always rejected the proposal, or to put it the other way round, do you know whether he agreed when any military authorities tried to influence the character of the Youth Leadership? Perhaps you could also answer this point briefly.
LAUTERBACHER: Even in 1933 attempts were made to introduce officers into the Hitler Youth as leaders. As far as my information goes, two officers had been given appointments in the Hitler Youth before my period of office as Stabsfuehrer, under more or less direct orders from Hitler. They were entirely unable to cope with youth as such; and I think I am justified in saying that their appearance-was a complete failure.
DR. SAUTER: What happened to them?
LAUTERBACHER: Schirach went to Adolf Hitler and succeeded in having these gentlemen dismissed; also through him, a directive was drawn up by Hitler which said that officers were not to hold positions in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Were no further attempts of the kind made to force officers from somewhere or other upon him?
LAUTERBACHER: Oh, yes. In 1936 and 1937, and then again in 1938, attempts were made to influence the education of the Hitler Youth through so-called liaison officers. But these attempts also failed; and up to the very end there were no officers working with the Hitler Youth who were responsible to any other authority except Schirach, apart from former Hitler Youth leaders who had served in the Army and received officers' commissions.
DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, you wish to say-and please confirm whether I have understood you correctly- that Schirach rejected these attempts. Is that correct?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, why did the Hitler Youth wear uniform- the girls as well?
LAUTERBACHER: Uniform is perhaps not quite the correct term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was more in the nature of a national costume which was worn by members of youth organizations before the existence of the Hitler Youth, not only in Germany but in other countries as well. Moreover, Schirach was anxious that all boys and girls should, as he expressed himself, wear the dress of the socialist community.
DR. SAUTER: Of the socialist community. Does that mean a community of all-of all the boys and girls of every class of German society without any distinction?
LAUTERBACHER: Without any distinction as to descent or creed or anything else.
DR. SAUTER: Or rich or poor?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were the Hitler Youth in possession of weapons and were they trained in the use of military weapons? You must know that.
LAUTERBACHER: No, they were not trained in the use of military weapons during the period in which Schirach and I held office.
DR. SAUTER: Did the Hitler Youth have, in particular, tanks, armored cars, and so forth, since reference was made to the training of the young men in the so-called 'motorized Hitler Youth" in connection with the question of the special unit (Sonderformation)- tanks, armored cars?
LAUTERBACHER: No, to my knowledge the Hitler Youth never received any training in armored cars, tanks, or anything of the kind, even after Schirach's term of office. At any rate...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You need not go into that. Mr. Dodd did not suggest that they had tanks.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can perhaps be more brief. I now come, Herr Lauterbacher, to the Defendant Von Schirach's attitude toward the Jewish question. Was the Hitler Youth involved in any way in the Jewish pogroms of November 1938?
LAUTERBACHER: I think I can answer your question with a definite "no."
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, you told me something about a speech made by the Defendant Von Schirach a few days after 9 November 1938, on the subject of these Jewish pogroms. Tell me when and to whom he delivered this speech and what the contents of the speech were.
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach was in Munich on 10 November 1938 and I was in Berlin. Schirach instructed me by telephone to tell the district leaders of the Hitler Youth that their organizations were in no circumstances to take part in these anti-Jewish demonstrations, and to call a meeting of all these leaders to hear a specific declaration on this point. This meeting took place about 15 November 1930.
DR. SAUTER: Where?
LAUTERBACHER: In Berlin. Schirach asked these district leaders to report to him and expressed his satisfaction at having in the meantime received reports to the effect that the Hitler Youth had not been involved in these excesses. He then described the said excesses in his speech. I still remember this speech extraordinarily well, for it was particularly impressive. He described these pogroms as a disgrace to our culture and as amounting to self-defamation. He said that such things might be expected of an uncivilized people but not of the German people. He went on to say that we had antagonized not only the world in general but also all decent people in Germany itself by these demonstrations. He was afraid that serious political difficulties would arise at home, as well as difficulties within the Party itself. As we know, the Party was not at all unanimous in its judgment of these happenings. A very large section of the Party members and of the Party leadership condemned these excesses.
DR. SAUTER: Please tell us more of what Schirach said at that time. I should be more interested in that.
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach then gave the Youth Leadership special instructions to keep out of demonstrations of this or a similar kind in the future, no matter what the circumstances might be, and condemned every use of violence on educational grounds alone. He concluded the proceedings by prohibiting the reading of the newspaper Der Sturmer by the Hitler Youth at club evenings or on any other occasions.