dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SEIDL: The Defendant Dr. Frank is accused of not having done everything that was necessary with regard to public health and sanitary conditions. What can you say about this point?
VON BURGSDORFF: I can say that in my district-again speaking of 1944-hospitals were improved and new ones installed. A great deal was done, especially in the. fighting of epidemics. Typhus, dysentery, and typhoid were greatly reduced by inoculation.
DR. SEIDL: The Defendant Frank is also accused of having neglected higher education. Do you know anything about the conditions in the Government General in regard to this?
VON BURGSDORFF: When I came into the Government General there was no longer any higher education at all. On the basis of other experiences I suggested immediately that Polish universities be opened again. I contacted the president of the main department for education, who told me that the government was already entertaining such plans. In every one of my monthly reports I pointed cut the necessity for Polish universities, because within a short time, or more correctly in a few years' time, there would be a shortage of technicians, doctors, and veterinarians.
DR. SEIDL: Now, one last question. There was a so-called sphere of activity of the NSDAP in the Government General; you were the District Standortfuehrer in the Government General?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: Witness, what, according to your observations, were the relations between the Governor General and the Head of the Party Chancellery, Bormann?
VON BURGSDORFF: I believe I can say without exaggeration that they were extremely bad. As District Standortfuehrer I combined this office with that of District Governor and witnessed the last great struggle of the Governor General against Bormann. The Governor General held the view, and in this he was justified, that it was wrong to combine the Party office with the government office. He was afraid there would be too much interference not only by the Police but also by the Party, and he wanted to prevent that. Bormann, on the other hand, wanted to establish the predominance of the Party over the State in the Government General as well. That led to the most serious conflict.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions for the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Defense Counsel wish to ask any other questions?
DR. OTTO FREIHERR VON LUEDINGHAUSEN (Counsel for Defendant Von Neurath): Witness, you were at one time Under State Secretary in the Government of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia? When was that?
VON BURGSDORFF: From the end of March 1939 until the middle of March 1942.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: And to whom were you directly subordinate as Under State Secretary? The State Secretary Frank or the Reich Protector?
VON BURGSDORFF: State Secretary Frank.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: How did you come to know about the activities of Von Neurath as Reich Protector?
VON BURGSDORFF: From conferences with him and personal conversations.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What kind of work did you have to do as Under State Secretary?
VON BURGSDORFF: I was in charge of the administration proper.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Were the Police and the various SS and police offices subordinate to you?
VON BURGSDORFF: No.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: To whom were they subordinate?
VON BURGSDORFF: To State Secretary Frank.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What was State Secretary Frank's attitude to Von Neurath?
VON BURGSDORFF: You mean officially?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Officially, yes, of course.
VON BURGSDORFF: Herr Von Neurath tried at first to get on with Herr Frank; but the stronger Frank's position became, the more impossible that was. State Secretary Frank, later Minister Frank, had behind him the entire power of the SS and the Police, and finally Hitler also.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: From whom did Frank get his orders directly?
VON BURGSDORFF: As far as I know, from Himmler; however, I saw that on one or two or three occasions he received direct orders from Hitler.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: And that happened mostly without Von Neurath being consulted?
VON BURGSDORFF: That I cannot say, but I assume so.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Was it possible for Frank to perform his political functions independently within his sphere of activity, or did he have to have the approval of Herr Von Neurath?
VON BURGSDORFF: Whether he was authorized or allowed to do so, I should not like to decide, but at any rate he did so.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Were Herr Von Neurath and Herr Frank of the same opinion concerning the policy towards the Czech people?
VON BURGSDORFF: I did not understand your question.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Did Herr Von Neurath agree with the policy toward the Czech people pursued by Frank or his superior, Himmler?
VON BURGSDORFF: No.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Could he carry through his aims?
VON BURGSDORFF: He could not do anything, confronted as he was by Himmler's and Hitler's immense power.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What was Herr Von Neurath's own policy and attitude?
VON BURGSDORFF: At the beginning I spoke very often about these things to Herr Von Neurath. On the basis of the decree of 15 March he hoped and believed he could get the Germans and Czechs in the Protectorate to live together reasonably and peacefully.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: But as Frank's position became stronger, that became more and more difficult?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you remember that in the middle of November 1939 serious disturbances broke out among the students in Prague?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you also remember that on the day after these incidents Herr Von Neurath and Frank flew to Berlin?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you remember that Frank returned from Berlin alone on the same day?
VON BURGSDORFF: I believe I can recall that Frank returned on the same day, but I do not know whether he returned alone.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: You don't know whether Herr Von Neurath returned with him?
VON BURGSDORFF: No.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything else about the incidents connected with the students' disturbances and what the consequences were?
VON BURGSDORFF: They resulted, as far as I remember, in the execution of several students and in the closing of the universities.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know whether the universities were closed on Himmler's order?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about the attitude of Herr Von Neurath towards the Catholic and Protestant Churches?
VON BURGSDORFF: His attitude was always above reproach, and there were no difficulties with the churches during the time that I was in the Protectorate.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know that Herr Von Neurath was in contact with the Archbishop of Prague until the latter's death?
VON BURGSDORFF: No, I don't know anything about that.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything concerning whether, during the term of office of Herr Von Neurath, with his approval or upon his orders, art treasures of any kind, pictures, monuments, sculptures, libraries, or the like, belonging either to the State or to private owners, were confiscated and removed from the country?
VON BURGSDORFF: It is certain, absolutely certain, that he did not order anything of the sort. Whether he consented in any way to this I do not know, but I do not believe so. I remember one incident in the Malta Palace, where some Reich office-I don't remember today which it was-removed art treasures. Herr Von Neurath immediately did everything to make good this damage.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know that the customs union which had been ordered by Berlin from the very beginning between the Protectorate and Germany was not established for a long time because of Herr Von Neurath's intervention?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes. I definitely know about that. However, in the interest of the truth, I have to add that State Secretary Frank also was against the customs union, because, like Herr Von Neurath, he believed that the economy of the Protectorate would be damaged by the stronger economy of Germany.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: While Von Neurath was Reich Protector, was there any compulsory deportation of workers?
VON BURGSDORFF: I am convinced that that did not happen. Workers were recruited, but in an entirely regular manner. That was the case while I was in the Protectorate.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know whether Von Neurath made travel in or out of the Protectorate dependent on official approval?
VON BURGSDORFF: Whether or not Von Neurath did that, I do not know.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about the closing of the secondary schools?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: What do you know about it?
VON BURGSDORFF: I remember that the closing of the secondary schools was a necessary consequence of the closing of the universities. There were too many secondary schools in the Protectorate. Not all of them were closed by any means. On the other hand technical schools were greatly expanded and new ones established. I cannot remember anything more exact about it.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Do you know anything about Von Neurath's attitude towards the Germanization of Czechoslovakia as intended by Himmler?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes, I remember the memorandum which Von Neurath sent to Hitler about the whole affair. That memorandum was intended to defer Himmler's plans for forced Germanization. Von Neurath expressed the view, which he had frequently mentioned to me, that in the interest of peace in the Protectorate he did not advocate these attempts at Germanization.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
MR. DODD: Tell us, please, when you first joined the National Socialist Party?
VON BURGSDORFF: On 1 May 1933.
MR. DODD: And did you achieve office in any of its affiliated organizations?
VON BURGSDORFF: I was an honorary SA Gruppenfuehrer.
MR. DODD: Any other honors?
VON BURGSDORFF: Then for a few years, just as I had been during the democratic regime, I was legal advisor to the administration of Saxony.
MR. DODD: Weren't you also an Oberbannfuehrer in the HJ, the Hitler-Jugend ?
VON BURGSDORFF: I once became Oberbannfuehrer on the occasion of the Reich Youth Leader's visit to Prague. But that was purely a gesture of courtesy, which had no consequences. I should like to mention again, since you speak of Party offices, that, as was said before, because of my post as Governor of Krak6w I was District Standortfuehrer from the middle of January 1944 until the end, that is the middle of January 1945.
MR. DODD: You also received the gold badge of the Hitler Youth, did you not?
VON BURGSDORFF: No.
MR. DODD: Weren't you in some way associated with Reinhard Heydrich when you were in Prague?
VON BURGSDORFF: I was with Heydrich until the middle of 1942. Then, as is generally known, because of the course pursued by Heydrich, I left the Protectorate, and at 55 years of age I went into the army.
MR. DODD: What position did you occupy with relation to Heydrich?
VON BURGSDORFF: The same as under Herr Von Neurath; I was Under State Secretary.
MR. DODD: Let me put it to you this way: You told us that you never heard of Maidanek, the concentration camp?
VON BURGSDORFF: Yes.
MR. DODD: And you never heard of Auschwitz?
VON BURGSDORFF: Of Auschwitz, yes.
MR. DODD: Had you heard of an installation known as Lublin?
VON BURGSDORFF: Of Lublin? Not of the concentration camp but of the city of Lublin, of course.
MR. DODD: Did you know of a concentration camp by the name of Lublin?
VON BURGSDORFF: No.
MR. DODD: You did know I assume, of many other concentration camps by name?
VON BURGSDORFF: Only of German camps, yes-of Dachau and Buchenwald.
MR. DODD: That is ale
THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions?
DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions for the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is your next witness?
DR. SEIDL: The next witness would be the former secretary of the Governor General, Fraulein Kraffczyk. However, if I understood the Tribunal correctly yesterday, this session will end at 1630 hours.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now until Tuesday morning. [The Tribunal adjourned until 23 April 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I shall dispense with the hearing of the witness Strove, Chief of the Central Department for Agriculture and Food in the Government General. With the permission of the Tribunal I am now calling witness Dr. Joseph Buehler. [The witness Buehler took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
JOSEPH BUEHLER (Witness): Joseph Buehler.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DR. SEIDL: Witness, how long have you known Defendant Dr. Hans Frank; and what were the positions in which you worked with him?
BUEHLER: I have known Herr Frank since 1 October 1930. I worked with him in government spheres of service from the end of March 1933. I served under him officially when he was Minister of Justice in Bavaria; later when he was Reich Commissioner for Justice; and still later when he was Minister. From the end of September 1939 Herr Frank employed me in an official capacity in the Government General.
DR. SEIDL: In what capacity did you serve in the Government General at the end?
BUEHLER: From about the second half of 1940 I was state secretary in the government of the Government General.
DR. SEIDL: Were you yourself a member of the Party?
BUEHLER: I have been a Party member since 1 April 1933.
DR. SEIDL: Did you exercise any functions in the Party or any of the affiliated organizations of the Party, particularly in the SA or the SS?
BUEHLER: I never held an office in the Party. I was never a member of the SA or the SS.
DR. SEIDL: I now come to the time during which you were state secretary to the chief of the government in the Government General. Will you please tell me what the relations were between the Governor General on the one side and the Higher SS and Police Leader on the other side?
BUEHLER: I might perhaps say in advance that my sphere of activity did not touch upon police matters, matters relating to the Party, or military matters in the Government General. The relations of the Governor General to the Higher SS and Police Leader, Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, who was allocated to him by the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police were, from the very beginning, made difficult by essential differences of opinion. These differences of opinion concerned the conception of the task and the position of the Police in general in an orderly state system, as well as the conception in particular of the position and tasks of the Police in the Government General. The Governor General held the view that the Police must be the servant and the organ of the executive of the state and that accordingly he and the state authorities should give orders to the Police and that this assignment of tasks involved a limitation of the sphere of activity of the Police. The Higher SS and Police Leader Krueger, on the other hand, held the view that the Police in general had, of course, to fulfill tasks originating with the executive of the state but that in fulfilling these tasks it was not bound by the instructions of the administrative authorities, that this was a matter of technical police questions, decisions about which administrative authorities could not make and were not in a position to make. Regarding the power to give orders to the Police, it was Krueger's view that because of the effectiveness and unity of police activity in all occupied territories, such power to issue orders had to rest with the central authority in Berlin and that he and only he could issue orders. As far as the duties of the Police were concerned, it was Krueger's opinion that the Governor General's view regarding the limitation of these duties as unfounded for the very reason that he, as Higher SS and Police Leader, was simultaneously the deputy of the Reichsfuehrer SS in the latter's capacity as Reich Commissioner for the Preservation of German Nationality.
BUEHLER: As far as the relation of the Police to the question of Polish policy was concerned, it was Krueger's view that, in connection with work in non-German territory, police considerations would have to play a predominant role and that with police methods everything could be achieved and everything could be prevented. This overestimation of the Police led, for instance, to the fact that, during later arguments between the Police and the administration regarding their respective spheres of work, matters concerning non-German groups were listed among the competences of the Police.
DR. SEIDL: Do you know that as Early as 1939 Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler issued a restricted decree, according to which the handling of all police matters was his own concern or the concern of his Higher SS and Police Leader?
BUEHLER: That this was the case became clear to me from the actions taken by the Police. I did not see a decree to this effect, but I can state this much: The Police in the Government General acted exactly as in the directives which I have described before.
DR. SEIDL: Witness, in 1942, by decree of the Fuehrer, a State Secretariat for Security was instituted. At whose instigation was this instituted and what was the position taken by the Governor General in that connection?
BUEHLER: This decree was preceded by a frightful campaign of hatred against the person of the Governor General. The institution of the State Secretariat for Security was considered by the Police a step, an important step, in the fight for the removal of the Governor General. The matters specified in that decree, or at least the majority of them, were not being transferred to the Police now for the first time, but the actual state of affairs was-the actual course of events had already been-in conformity to the contents of this decree before it was issued.
DR. SEIDL: In the decree implementing this Fuehrer decree and dated 3 June 1942 all the police spheres of activities which were to be transferred to the State Secretary were given in two lists; in an Appendix A, the tasks of the Regular Police; and in an Appendix B. the tasks of the Security Police. Were these police matters at that time transferred completely to the State Secretary and thus to the police sector?
BUEHLER: The administration did not like giving up these matters; so where the Police had not already got hold of them, they were given up only with reluctance.
DR. SEIDL: You are thinking first of all of the spheres of the so-called administrative police, health police, et cetera , are you not?
BUEHLER: Yes, that is to say, the police in charge of communications, health, food, and such matters.
DR. SEIDL: If I have understood your statements correctly, you mean that the entire police system, Security Police as well as SD and Regular Police, was directed by the central office, either by Himmler himself or by the Reich Security Main Office through the Higher SS and Police Leader?
BUEHLER: In general according to my observations, it was possible for the Security Police to receive orders direct from Berlin without their going through Krueger.
DR. SEIDL: And now another question: Is it correct that resettlements were carried out in the Government General, by Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in his capacity as Reich Commissioner for the Preservation of German Nationality?
BUEHLER: Resettlements, in the opinion of the Governor General, even if carried out decently, always caused unrest among the population. We had no use for that in the Government General. Also, these resettlements always caused a falling off of agricultural production. For these reasons, the Governor General and the Government of the Government General did not, as a matter of principle, carry out resettlements during the war. To the extent that such resettlements were carried out, it was done exclusively by the Reich Commissioner for the Preservation of German Nationality.
DR. SEIDL: Is it correct that the Governor General, because of this arbitrary resettlement policy, repeatedly had serious arguments with Himmler, Krueger, and SS Gruppenfuehrer Globocznik?
BUEHLER: That is correct. The - intention of preventing such resettlements always led to arguments and friction between the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Governor General.
DR. SEIDL: The Defendant Dr. Frank is accused by the Prosecution of the seizure and confiscation of industrial and private property. What basically was the attitude of the Governor General to such questions?
BUEHLER: The legal provisions in this sphere of the law originated with the Delegate for the Four Year Plan. Confiscation of private property and possessions in the annexed Eastern territories and in the Government General was subject to the same regulations. The decree of the Delegate for the Four Year Plan provided for the creation of a trust office-the Haupttreuhandstelle Ost-with its central administration in Berlin. The Governor General did not want to have the affairs of the Government General administered in Berlin, and therefore he opposed the administration of property in the Government General being entrusted to the Haupttreuhandstelle Ost. Without interference by the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, he established his own rules for confiscations in the Government General and his own trust office. That trust office was headed by an experienced higher official from the Ministry of Economy of Saxony.
DR.SEIDL: What happened to the factories and works which were situated in the Government General and were formerly the property of the Polish State?
BUEHLER: Factories, as far as they were included in the armament program, were taken over by the military sector, that is to say, by the Inspector for Armaments, who was subordinate to the OKW and later to Minister Speer. Factories outside the armament sector, which had belonged to the former Polish State, the Governor General tried to consolidate into a stock company and to administer them separately as property of the Government General. The chief shareholder in this company was the Treasury of the Government General.
DR.SEIDL: That is to say, these factories were administered entirely separately by the Reich Treasury?
BUEHLER: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: The Prosecution submitted an extract from Frank's diary in evidence under Number USA-281 (Document Number 2233(d)-PS.) This is a discussion of Jewish problems. In this connection Frank said, among other things: "My attitude towards the Jews is based on the expectation that they will disappear; they must go away. I have started negotiations for deporting them to the East. This question will be discussed at a large meeting in Berlin in January, to which I shall send State Secretary Dr. Buehler. This conference is to take place at the Reich Security Main Office in the office of SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich. In any case Jewish emigration on a large scale will begin." I ask you now, did the Governor General send you to Berlin for that conference; and if so, what was the subject of the conference?