dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: We wall adjourn now. (A recess was taken.) BY DR. PANNENBECKER (Counsel for defendant Frick): Q Witness, you have already talked about such questions which are of importance for the defense of defendant Frick, since he has been a member of the Reich Cabinet. Can you tell me on the strength of what position you are particularly suited to give such answers? I repeat, how is it that you on the strength of your position, can answer these questions? A You mean my own? Q Yes. A I was Secretary of State in the Reich Chancellory, and I was the intermediary between the Fuehrer and the Reich Minister, with two exceptions:  Either, if the Fuehrer decided to go a direct way to these gentlemen, or if these men in question chose another way to the Fuehrer, not through me. There were a numberof things which didn't go through my hands, whenever these ministers submitted them to the Fuehrer directly. These were all matters referring to a large scale foreign policy, particularly. Only in 1937, on the occasion of certain alterations of the cabinet, did I receive the title "Reich Minister", but my tasks did not change. In particular, I had no fear of influence nor jurisdiction. Q Can you tell me when the last meeting of the Reich Cabinet took place? A The Reich Cabinet met for the last time in November, 1937, but, on the other hand, in 1938, at the beginning of February, there was one more so-called "information conference" between ministers, during which the Fuehrer announced the alterations which were being made in the Government, which were referring to von Blomberg and von Neurath. The last cabinet meeting, however, when actual consultations took place and when a penal code was being drafted, took place in November 1997. Q Can you tell me anything about any attempts after that date to get the ministers together? A After that date I continuously attempted to effect a concentration of the Reich Cabinet. I would like to say, I wanted reactivation. This was continously refused by the Fuehrer.
THE PRESIDENT: I had even prepared a draft, a draft for a decree, according to which ministers would at least have 
     the possibility to consult with each other, say once or twice a month, and under the chairmanship of Reichsmarshal Goering, or, if he were prevented from attending, under my formal chairmanship. All I was aiming at was a meeting of ministers for information and reporting, but that, too, was turned down by the Fuehrer. Nevertheless, the ministers had the urgent wish to meet. So, I made a further suggestion, namely that once or twice a month the ministers should have a social evening, drinking beer, so that they could get together and talk. To that the Fuehrer replied, "Mr. Lammers, this isn't your business; it'smy business. The next time I go to Berlin, I'll do so."  And again this didn't take place.
THE PRESIDENT: What are all these details about beer drinking? If they did not meet and he applied to the Fuehrer, asking them to meet and they never did, that is sufficient. What is the good of going into detail? BY DR. PANNENBECKER: Q Is it correct, therefore, to say that the ministers as individuals had to work on their own, but that a Reich Cabinet as such, which decided upon political questions and was informed and discussed them, did not exist at all? A-   In principle, ministers were no longer anything than the supreme administrative chiefs in their sphere. They no longer acted in the cabinet as political ministers. I have been trying to describe that earlier on no further meetings took place. In fact, they were even forbidden. So, how could it have been possible that they could exchange views? Q Do you know anything about a statement coming from Hitler that he considered the cabinet as a defeatist club? A During my attempts to reactivate the Reich Government and to bring about certain meetings, the Fuehrer told me that this would have to be stopped since an atmosphere could be created which he wouldn't like very much. He didn't use the word "defeatist club" before me, but Reichsleiter Bormann told me that he had said, "Ministers shouldn't meet since this could become a defeatist club." Q It has been discussed quite frequently here that the Reich 
     Minister on his own couldn't resign. Do you know whether Frick made an attempt to resign? A In spite of this prohibition, Frick has repeatedly stated his wish to be relieved of his office if he no longer enjoyed the Fuehrer's full confidence and if the Fuehrer wouldn't receive him any more. He was told me that frequently; but an application to resign in writing I cannot recollect:  Frick's wishes regarding his resignation were, of course, passed on to the Fuehrer by me in every case, although such transmissions were always severely turned down by the Fuehrer. Q In August, 1943, Frick left his position as the Minister of the Interior. Do you know any details about what he said in that connection, personally?
THE PRESIDENT: A At that time he himself told me, "I am glad to leave my position as Minister for the Interior, but, please, see to it that the Fuehrer does not make me Reich Protector of Bohemia or Moravia, as he is intending to do. I don't want that job. I want to retire."  And I told that to the Fuehrer. So, the Fuehrer ordered Frick to come to his headquarters. Before Frick went to see the Fuehrer alone, he told me that he did not under any circumstances want to accept the position of Reich protector, but, when he left the Fuehrer, he had, nevertheless, changed his mind and he had accepted the job. If I am right, this must have been in August, 1943. Q Frick is accused of being Plenipotentiary for Reich Administration. Do you know anything abut that office? A He had the task of coordinating other ministries as Plenipotentiary for the Administration, the Ministry of the Interior, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Churches, and Department for Reallocation of Space,  He coordinated them under his command and represented them in the Administerial Counsel for Reich Defense, which came into being in 1939 with the outbreak of war. Q Can you tell me which is the basis for his appointment as Plenipotentiary for Administration? There are two Reich Defense Laws, one for 1938 and one for 1939. A    The Plenipotentiary for Reich Defense Laws I cannot recollect. The draft of that law, which was not published, the Reich Defense Law of 1938, allocates to the Plenipotentiary for administration, a number of tasks which he did, in fact, never take over. He has only taken ever the task of coordinating these various departments, which I have just mentioned. Actual powers as general Plenipotentiary for the Reich Administration were never exercise to that degree, which had been allocated to him in that Reich Defense Law. Q     In this connection, it has been mentioned that there was a so- called Three Men College, or collegium, which was supposed to have consisted of Frick, Schacht, and the Chief of the OKW. Can you tell me anything about the expression "Three Men College"?
THE PRESIDENT: A The "Three Men College" is quite wrong. It is not a legal conception. It was on auxiliary expression that was used, a make-shift word. These three people, the General Plenipotentiary for Administration, the General Plenipotentiary for Economy, and the Chief of the OKW each had such powers as were necessary to promulgate decrees, but they were tied down and had to get the agreement of the other two. In other words, one could give instructions after the other two had agreed, and meetings of the so-called three men college, or collegium, have never taken place. The decree, or decrees, which have originated from it are very few indeed and altogether quite unimportant. For instance, I can remember that this council has ruled on the question of reducing judges, which are matters referring to civil service, and there are one or two, in fact, a total of six or eight, and altogether quite unimportant. Q There was later on the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense. Can you compare these two, in other words, the three and the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense? A Do you mean the Three Men College? Q Yes. A First of all, after the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense was established, it was my principle to exclude these three men wherever possible, since it was not at all necessary. The Ministerial Council for the Reich Defense had the task to issue legal decrees which had the power of laws but it actually had nothing to do with the defense of the Reich. In other words, military matters were never discussed in this Ministerial Council for Reich Defense, nor did they negotiate on any foreign political questions or propaganda. In principle, they issued decrees which had the force of laws, and the meetings only took place until December 1939, and after that they merely used the system of written circulation of decrees, and meetings after that did not take place. Q     In connection with occupied territories, there appears to have been a Central Department in the Ministry of the Interior.
THE PRESIDENT: This Central Department has been quoted by the Prosecution as evidence for the fact that Frick had considerable administrative powers and responsibilities for occupied territories. Are you able to say anything about the Central Department? A The Central Department had two main tasks. One was the recruiting of civil servants. The second was to give assistance in connection with the publication of laws and decrees in occupied territories. Q Such a department became necessary because the occupied territories required personnel and because the Reich Commissioners in the occupied territories, who were directly under the Fuehrer's command, handled their problems partly through me. If one had decided to settle personnel problems within that framework, then I would have had to do it, but I had no instrument for it. I had only a staff of twelve, and I had no organization in the country, nor did I have any executive powers. Thus, the Minister of the Interior was included, since he had the civil service instrument at his disposal. Q You just said that the Central Department had given assistance in issuing decrees in the occupied territories. Was it possible for the Central Department to issue a decree referring to Norway or any occupied territory, say for instance, Norway? Could they publish such a decree? A No, not actually. Only after the Reich Commissioner in question had agreed. Q Was it customary for the Central Department at any time to publish decrees referring to any certain occupied territory? A To my knowledge that has never happened. I do not know of a single case where the Central Department has published a decree. Q It has been stated that there is a decree from the Minister of their Interior which ruled on the question of citizenship with reference to occupied territories. A Do you mean G erman citizenship? Q Yes. A      Yes, that is an interior matter, an internal German matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Q Did not the Central Department have the right to issue instructions to either the German Deputy or authorized persons in occupied territories, say the Commissioner for Norway, or did they have the right to issue instructions to the German service departments? A  No, they did not have any such right. Q The Prosecution has further stated that the Central Department also had the right to issue instructions in those territories for which it had not been specifically appointed. I s there any legal basis or is there any practical example where the Central Department interfered with the jurisdiction for occupied territories? A No, none is known to me. Q Would you say that it is correct to say that the civil administration in the occupied territories always was immediately subordinate to Hitler as the Fuehrer, no matter what their designation was? A In occupied territories the Reich Commissioners were subordinated, as were the chiefs of the civil administration, immediately to the Fuehrer. Q Did Frick, as Minister for the Interior, have the power to issue orders with reference to occupied territories where the German police was active? A No, the police authority in occupied territories was vested in Himmler in co-operation with the commissioners. The Minister of the Interior had nothing to do with the police in occupied territories. Q Does not the jurisdiction of the Minister of the Interior arise from the fact that Himmler was subordinate to Frick in the Ministry of the Interior? A There might have been the possibility to issue instructions as far as Germany was concerned, but not as far as the occupied territories are concerned, and just how far this applied to the German Reich is another problematical question. Q I shall come to that later in detail. Can you tell me anything about the powers of the Minister of the Interior regarding the police during that time when the police was still under the jurisdiction of the counties, 1933 to 1936? A Well, his powers were very limited, and I cannot tell you any of the details. Q Did he have the right to supervise?
THE PRESIDENT: A Yes, the Reich had the right of supreme supervision. Q  You know, of course, that later on, through decree, Himmler was appointed to be Reichleiter of the German police in the Ministry of the Interior, do you not? Do you know who originated that designation? A Yes, I participated at the time. The proposal for such a title appears to have originated from Himmler. I objected to this title for two reasons. Two different matters were being thrown together;  the Reich Fuehrer SS, which is a Party organization, and the State organization, the chief of the Police. The Reichsleiter SS has the rank of Reich Leader in the Party, which is equivalent to a Minister, and on the other side you have the chief of police, who has the position of a secretary of state in the Ministry of the Interior and who is subordinate to the Ministry of the Interior, but Himmler insisted, on that designation, and the Fuehrer considered that he was right. My objections were proved correct by the facts, because on one side the right to issue instructions which the Reich Minister of the Interior had with reference to the police now became extremely problematical, since Reichsfuehrer Himmler was giving instructions to police who were SS, and he could give them instructions as Reichsfuehrer SS, and the Ministry of the Interior could not interfere, and it was a habit of his that he appointed police officials as SS officers, so that you could never know in what capacity he was acting. Was he acting as member of the SS, or was he acting as a policeman? And the subordination in the Ministry of Interior later on became almost irrelevant, because, first of all, Himmler used to leave out the Chief of the German Police designation in the Ministry, and as far as administration was concerned, he merely called himself Minister of the Interior, and he no longer considered himself under the jurisdiction.
THE PRESIDENT: When Minister Frick raised a complaint about this which he addressed to me and which I was supposed to take to the Fuehrer, the Fuehrer told me, "Tell Frick to consider Himmler as Chief of the German Police and not to interfere with him too much. He is looking after the police very well. Where possible, he ought to give him a free hand."  Thus, though perhaps not by special decree, there was in practice created a limitation on the jurisdiction on the part of the Minister of the Interior, if it was not altogether cancelled. Q     You have just said that Himmler on his own exercised jurisdict- ion over police organizations without worrying very much about what Frick wanted, but then there was a channel of orders as far as the police were concerned when Hitle himself gave orders. Did he give them to Frick or did he give them to Himmler? A Normally the Fuehrer gave these instructions to Himmler . If he gave instructions to me which were referring to the police sector then I mostly handed then on to the Minister of the Interior or at least I informed him. Q. Do you know anything regarding the question whether concentration camps were presented in the budget of the Reich or whether they were in the budget of the SS? A. As far as I know -- but I can't say this for certain -- the money for concentration camps did not appear in the budget of the Reich, But what was the case was that the Reich Minister of Finance would receive an over-all payment and pay it to the Party once a year. This was taken care of by the Reich Treasurer. He, in turn, distributed it to the various Party organizations, so that the Reich Leader SS would receive an over-all payment for the SS and quite probably he used that for that finance. I can't recollect that I have over seen any figure, any sum, which was referring to concentration comps in the budget. Q. Do you know anything regarding the fact that Himmler, giving the reason that means for concentration comps were being raised through the SS, has denied the right of the minister of the Interior to interfere with those natters?
THE PRESIDENT: A. No, I don't know anything about that. Q. I now have some questions referring to another problem. Do you know anything about Himmler's efforts to kill insane persons painlessly? A. The first time that thought occurred to Hitler was in the autumn of 1939. On that occasion the Secretary of State in the Ministry of the Interior, Dr. Conti, received the task of invertigating this problem. He was told to discuss the legal angle with me. I spoke against the execution of any such procedure but since the Fuehrer insisted I suggested that this matter should because given all legal guarantees and be ruled upon by a law, because promptly I drafted a law and the Secretary of state was then relieved of the task. In 1940 the task was given to Reich Leader Buhler. He, Buhler, reported to the Fuehrer, and I wasn't present. And then he came to see me, and I showed him my draft of the law and stated the objections I had to the whole thing. And he left. Then I presented the draft law to the Fuehrer and he did not approve it, but he didn't turn it down altogether. However, he excluded me and he gave authority for the killing of incurable insane people to Reich Leader Buhler, and the medical officer, Professor Dr. Brandt. I didn't participate in the draft of that authority. As far as I was concerned, the the matter was settled, since the Fuehrer didn't wish to have a law and since he had given others the authority to carry it out. Q. You have just said that the Fuehrer gave the task to the Secretary of State, Dr. Conti, in the Ministry of the Interior. Did that order go through Frick to Conti from Hitler? A. I don't know. Secretary of State Conti was called on the telephone by the adjutant's office and he was told to call, and whether that went through Frick or not, that I don't know. Q. Do you know anything about whether Frick himself did participate in these measures in some form or other? A. No, nothing is known to me. Q. Then I have a last group of questions, referring to the Protectorate in Bohemia and Moravia.
THE PRESIDENT: when in August, 1943, Frick was appointed Protector for Bohemia and Moravia did the formal authority remain the same as before? A. No, they were deliberately altered. In that was the immediate effect was that the Protector became a more or less decorative personality. The political guidance was to be transferred to the Minister, Frank. The Protector was merely the German head in the Protectorate, with comparatively few perogstives. He was to cooperate in forming the government in the Protectorate and furthermore he had a certain rather limited, rather small right to nominate civil servants, which in the main applied to the medium and lower grade civil servants, and then he had the right to grant pardons to sentenced criminals. Generally speaking the Minister for Bohemia 
     and Moravia, Frank, had the duties to inform the Protector;  that principally was the right which the Protector had;  and apart from that, it was Hitler's wish that the Protector should not spend too much time in the Protectorate. In fact I have had to pass that wish on to him several times. Q You have said that the Protector of Bohemia and Moravia during Frick's time was the head of German administration. Was State Minister Frank under Frick? A Yes, he was the subordinate but the relation was rather that of the head of the State to the head of the Government;  in other words, State Minister Frank had political control. Q But isn't it right to say that Minister Frank was immediately subordinate to the Fuehrer? A No, I don't think that was the situation. I haven't got a recollection of the degree, but I don't think he was immediately his subordinate I can't tell you that for certain now. At any rate, the Fuehrer only received Mr. Frank for political discussion and not as Protector. Q I cannot find the paper;  I shall have to clarify it later.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know anything regarding the fact that Frick has expressly demanded that partition of authority and that to start with he refused to accept the position of Protector in Bohemia and Moravia and only when he said that outwardly, that he couldn't bear responsibility, did that partition actually take place? A The fact that Frick refused, to start with, to accept the position has been stated by me. And when this decree appeared in which the rights of the Protector were laid, down, which was a decree which wasn't published, Dr. Frick quite rightly raised the objection, saying then, "As far as the outside world is concerned, I have responsibilities which aren't known." So we published a notice in the press. In that, it said that the new Reich Protector would only have such and such rights,"  as I previously listed them here, such as the nomination of civil servants, the right to pardon and the right to cooperate in the forming of a government in the Protectorate. So that it had been stated to the outside world that Frick did not have the 
     whole, full responsibility which had been held by former Reich Protectors. Q Did you know anything about the fact that the reason for that partition of responsibility in the Protectorate was that Hitler didn't think that Frick would be hard enough to handle matters there? A That is obviously the reason, yes.