dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
COL. POKROVSKY: "It will hardly be possible to increase the number of the Russian prisoners of war employed at present (400,000). If the typhus cases do decrease there may be a possibility of employing from 100,000 to 150,000 more for the economy. In contrast with that, the employment of Russian civilians is constantly gaining greater importance. There are, all together, between 600,000 and 650,000 Russian civilians available, among whom 300,000 are skilled industrial workers and from 300,000 to 350,000 agricultural workers. The utilization of these Russians is exclusively a question of transportation. It is senseless to transport.... "-and so on.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what you read before.
COL. POKROVSKY: That is right. I would like to direct your attention once more to the fact that there is a stamp on the document, "The War Economy and Armament Of lice of the OKW.... "- left corner, at the top.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, that does not appear in our translation, but I guess you are right. At least, I don't see it. Could you let us see your document?
COL. POKROVSKY: The original will be shown to you immediately. The stamp is at the top, in the left corner.
THE PRESIDENT: These letters and numbers indicate OKW although they don't say it?
COL. POKROVSKY: That is right.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say that? I mean, the actual letters which are there look to me like Ru III Z St AZ i K 32i510 Wi Ru Amt/Ru III Z St.
COL. POKROVSKY: When you decipher these abbreviations, which has already been done by our American colleagues, then those letters and figures can be understood as corresponding with the facts regarding the structure of the OKW which are at the disposal of the American Prosecution. These are customary abbreviations for the departments and offices.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like you to ask the witness whether he knows anything about the employment of the man mentioned a little way further down at the right, Dr. Grotius. I will ask him. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, do you know who Dr. Grotius was and whether he was employed in the OKW or in the Army?
WESTHOFF: No, I have never heard the name "Dr. Grotius"; I also never had anything to do with him.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got the document before you?
WESTHOFF: No, I have not got it any longer.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Just look at it and see whether the letters which are put in the front of Dr. Grotius' name indicate that he was a member of the OKW?
COL. POKROVSKY: Mr. President, I did not put the question concerning Dr. Grotius since the witness, as he has already told me, entered the Army administration later, in 1943, whereas the document is dated 20 February 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: [To the witness.] Do those letters in front of Dr. Grotius' name indicate that he divas in the OKW? '
WESTHOFF: I do not know what the letters are supposed to mean; the OKW has also nothing at all to do with this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know what the letters on the top left hand side of the document mean-the ones I read out just now to you?
WESTHOFF: Ru III?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
WESTHOFF: That is probably the Armament Office III. That is what it probably means.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that would be in connection with the OKW, would it not?
WESTHOFF: I am not informed about that since I have never had anything to do with the armament departments. The High Command of the Army, at least my office, had written communications only with the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor and the Speer Ministry. Just how it was organized in detail is unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know of, or did you know, Dr. Mansfeld?
WESTHOFF: I did not understand the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know Dr. Mansfeld?
WESTHOFF: No, I did not know him, and I have never heard his name.
COL. POKROVSKY: The question about Dr. Mansfeld could be asked probably of the Defendant Sauckel.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, technically speaking, the Tribunal can't accept from you that these letters at the top mean the OKW. It may be perfectly true, but you can't give evidence about it. So you can prove it some other way perhaps.
COL. POKROVSKY: The scheme of the OKW has already been reported to the Tribunal. Those persons who deciphered these abbreviations are sufficiently competent in this matter, and it seems to me that the witness' affirmation in the court fully proves that the document in question concerns Section III of the OKW. But, generally speaking, it would, of course, be quite easy to prove by comparing it with the scheme of the OKW. We will do it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire. The Tribunal will adjourn now, and they will want the other witness, Wielen, here at 2 o'clock. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE My Lord, I do not know if Your Lordship wanted the words for which these short collections of letters stand. I have them if Your Lordship wants them-on the last document, 1201-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, thank you very much; yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I think all that Your Lordship need look at is where the name Dr. Grotius appears.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Wi. Ru Amt is the Wirtschaftsrustungsamt, the Economic and Armament Office, which is, Your Lordship will remember, General Thomas' department of the OKW. My Lord, the other letters "KVR" are Kriegsverwaltungsrat, War Administration Counsellor. My Lord, I do not think there could be any dispute that the document comes from General Thomas' department of the OKW.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I say something in regard to this document. I want only to point out certain considerations. It must be ascertained from where the heading comes, that is, the first line. The second line, which Sir David lust referred to, begins with the letters "AZ." AZ (Aktenzeichen) means "file number," in other words, a reference to a letter from the Economic and Armament Office. It does not explain however, the author of this document, which can only be ascertained when we find out what the heading, or the first line, means.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, do you understand it?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, I understand it.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. LATERNSER: The author of this writing can be ascertained only if we find out what the first line means; because the second line is only the document file number, which is to be seen from the first two letters, "AZ," which means Aktenzeichen; and in this letter, reference seems to be made to a letter from the Economic and Armament Office. That is all I have to say in regard to this.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I do not know if Your Lordship wants any further information. It seems to me quite clear. That is, it is from the file of the department I mentioned, the Wirtschaftsrustungsamt.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. You mean it goes back to the same letters.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The same letters, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It has just been explained to me that what Dr. Laternser was saying is that the letters "AZ i. K. 32/510" only mean that it is from the file of that department.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord. Then, to find the office whose file it is, you get Wi. Ru again, which is the Wirtschaftsrustungsamt, which is the Economic and Armament Office, and it is the Armament Department, Number III. Am; PRESIDENT: Yes. Sir David, the Tribunal thought that the best way would be to put this witness in the box and then to leave him to Counsel for the Prosecution and the Defense.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship please, my friend, Mr. Roberts, is going to deal with this witness, and, My Lord, he has selected the passages quite shortly from the statements which will be read.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. [The witness Wielen took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you stand up please?
MAX WIELEN (Witness): Yes, certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
WIELEN: Max Wielen. IBM; PRESIDENT: Your full name?
WIELEN: Max Wielen.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
MR. G. D. ROBERTS (Leading Counsel for the United Kingdom): Max Wielen, you made two statements in London through Colonel Hinchley Cook.
WIELEN: Yes.
MR. ROBERTS: And are these photostats of the two statements- the first one dated 26 August 1945, and the second dated 6 September 1945? [The documents were submitted to the witness.] Are those the photographs of your true statements? Do you identify them? Do you see your signature at the end of each?
WIELEN: Yes.
MR. ROBERTS: And in those two statements did you tell the truth?
WIELEN: Yes, I told the truth.
MR. ROBERTS: My Lord, perhaps I should now read some passages so that they may go into the record. [Turning to the witness,] If you take the first statement first-the statement begins with your name and the positions which you held in the SS and in the Criminal Police. That is right, is it not?
WIELEN: Yes.
MR. ROBERTS: And now, will you just follow the beginning of this statement.
WIELEN: Of which declaration, 6 September?
MR. ROBERTS: I said the first one.
WIELEN: The first one? I see.
MR. ROBERTS: Just follow it while I read. I will read the whole of the first page: `'Oberregierungsrat and Kriminalrat, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer . . ."
WIELEN: Oberregierungsrat and Kriminalrat of the Criminal Police, not of the SS . . .
MR. ROBERTS: I do not want you to read it, just listen to me. . . formerly officer in charge of the Criminal Police at Breslau. '`I have to state in answer to the question, whether I know anything about the shooting of English prisoners of war, Air Force officers of the prison camp at Sagan, that I have knowledge of this matter and wish to make the following statement without reserve. "The shooting took place on the express personal orders of the former Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler, and was carried out by the officials of the Geheime Staatspolizei. "The officer in charge of the Staatspolizeileitstelle at Breslau was Oberregierungsrat, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Scharpwinkel. His immediate superiors were the Chief of the Sipo, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner, and the Chief of Amt IV of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, SS Gruppenfuehrer Muller. I am unable to give the names of the officers in charge of other districts of the Geheime Staatspolizei who carried out shootings in their districts. "I insert here a small chart showing the organization of the Sicherheitspolizei...." I now go to the bottom of Page 3 in the English copy, and it is at the bottom of Page 3 in the copy in German, which the witness has in his hands: "During the course of time"-and this is talking about Stalag Luft III_c99 escape tunnels had been dug. All of them had been discovered by the military. The hundredth tunnel, dug in March 1944, proved successful to the extent that 80 officers were able to escape. "On receipt of a telephone message from the camp headquarters to the Kriminalpolizeileitstelle, I gave the order for 'Kriegsfahndung,' in accordance with the emergency instructions laid down. At Dr. Absalon's suggestion, and having regard for the time lag, 'Grossfahndung' was ordered.
MR. ROBERTS: Moreover, the officer in charge of the Reichskriminalpolizeiamt had to be informed, who approved and confirmed the order for 'Grossalarm.' 'Gradually the search, which was carried out in all parts of Germany led to the rearrest of practically all the escaped English officer prisoners, with the exception of three, I believe. Most of them were recaptured while still in Silesia. A few had got as far as Kiel, Strasbourg, and the Allgau. `'It was then that one day at noon I received a telegraphic instruction from General Nebe to proceed at once to Berlin to be informed of a secret order. When I arrived in Berlin that evening, I saw General Nebe in his office Am Werdierschen Markt 5/7. I gave him a short, concise report on the whole matter as it stood at the time. He then showed me a teleprint order signed by Dr. Kaltenbrunner, in which was stated that, on the express personal orders of the Fuehrer, over half of the officers escaped from Sagan were to be shot after their recapture. The of ricers in charge of Department IV, Gruppenfuehrer Muller, had received corresponding orders and would give instructions to the Staatspolizei. Military offices had been informed. "General Nebe himself appeared shocked at this order. He was very distressed. I was afterwards told that for nights on end he had not gone to bed but had passed the night on his office settee. "I, too, was appalled at the horrible step to be taken and opposed its execution. I said that it was against the laws of war; and that it was bound to lead to reprisals against our own officers who were prisoners of war in English camps, and that I absolutely refused to take any responsibility. General Nebe replied that in this particular case I had indeed no responsibility whatever, because the Staatspolizei would act completely independently, and that, after all the Fuehrer's orders had to be carried out without demur.
MR. ROBERTS: I want to point out that when I first refused I acted on impulse and feeling, well knowing that I could not hope to prevail in view of the conditions that had recently arisen within the Sicherheitspolizei. Nebe then added that I, on my part, was, of course, under an obligation to preserve absolute secrecy, and that I had been shown the original order so that I should not make any difficulties vis-a-vis the Staatspolizei. My own duties as regards the transport of some of the prisoners would be transferred to the Staatspolizei. "In this connection I want to explain that until then the bringing back of prisoners to the camp had been the responsibility of the Kriminalpolizei; either they had to take them back to the camp themselves, or they had to hold them until they were fetched by the camp staff. In answer to a question, I declare that Oberregierungsrat Dr. Schulze was present at the discussion with General Nebe. He nodded his head in agreement when I raised my objection, but otherwise took no part in it. "On my return to Breslau, I learned from Dr. Scharpwinkel that the Geheime Staatspolizei had been duly informed by Gruppenfuehrer Muller. I was not apprised of the actual instructions. I also do not know whether a similar order was issued to every officer in charge of the Staatspolizeileitstellen, or whether orders were only given to those in whose areas arrests had been made and executions were to be carried out. "According to instructions the police in the districts where arrests had been made had to inform the Reichskriminalpolizeiamt (Kriegsfahndungszentrale) by telegram or telephone that officer prisoners of war had been taken into custody. The Kriminalpolizeileitstelle Breslau was also to be informed. "How the shooting was carried out, I do not know; but I presume that after the Staatspolizei had collected the officers concerned from the prisons, they were shot in some remote spot-forests, et cetera-with pistols, service pistols of the Stapo.
MR. ROBERTS: "In answer to the question whether the officers were possibly beaten to death, I state that I do not believe this, because the Fuehrer's order specifically mentioned 'shooting.' "The Staatspolizei had, in accordance with instructions received from RSHA, Department IV, described the shooting as if it had occurred in transit for the purpose of self-defense or to prevent reescape. This I afterwards learned from Dr. Scharpwinkel. "Later the Kriminalpolizeileitstelle Breslau received a letter from the RSHA, Department V, which had to be communicated to the camp commandant with the request that its text should be made known to the English officer prisoners of war in order to frighten them. The letter explained that the shooting had occurred for the abovementioned reason. The text of the letter was communicated to Oberst Lindeiner or one of the camp staff officers. "As regards the selection of the officers to be shot, a list had been prepared by the camp authorities, at the request of Department V, in which those officers who were regarded as disturbing elements-plotters and escape leaders-had been specifically mentioned. The names were selected either by the commandant or by one of his of ricers. Thereupon the shooting of officers mentioned by name was accordingly ordered by Department IV and corresponding instructions sent to the Staatspolizei of the district concerned." I omit the next paragraph, and I go to the bottom of the English copy, Page 4; at the bottom of the witness' copy, Page 7. Witness, would you turn to Page 7, please. You will find the passage marked in pencil at the bottom of Page 7. Have you got the page? I carefully numbered the pages.
WIELEN: There is nothing marked in this.
MR. ROBERTS: I know, but if you turn over the page you will get something which is marked.
WIELEN: Nothing is marked on Page 7, but on Page 8 . . .
MR. ROBERTS: You will find something marked at the very bottom of Page 7. At any rate, just follow these words-follow these words, will you: "To revert to the shooting. . . "
WIELEN: Yes, I have found it now.
MR. ROBERTS: " . . . approximately 40 English officers who had not been arrested by the Staatspolizei but by the Kriminalpolizei had meanwhile been taken back to camp." When you said that-you just answer this question, Witness; you said approximately 40 officers-you didn't know the actual numbers, did you?
WIELEN: The number is not correct. It was not 40. I did not know at that time.
MR. ROBERTS: That's right, because it isn't the correct number. I think, 50.
WIELEN: I made a mistake at that time.
MR. ROBERTS: That's right. "They had come to no harm whatsoever; I must assume that . . ."
WIELEN: Fifteen additional were brought back.
MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes. I just want you now to listen to it, if you will be kind enough: ". .. I must assume that their treatment was perfectly correct. It had been impossible to avoid putting them into police prisons due to the general conditions then prevailing. "I do not know who interrogated the officers in the police prisons. I assume this was done by the local police authorities, as an interrogation must necessarily follow every notification of arrest. I do not know the names of the officials of the Staatspolizei or the Gemeindepolizei (small local police force) who cooperated in this matter, but Dr. Absalon should be able to supply the answer to this question." I go on to the paragraph beginning, "The urns. . . " if Your Lordship please: "The urns containing the ashes of the officers who had been shot were transmitted by the Staatspolizei to the Kriminalpolizei. Which crematoria had been used by the Staatspolizei, I am unable to say. The urns were handed over to the camp commandant by order of the RSHA for a military funeral. By this means the return of the urns through the Kripo-the fact that the Staatspolizei was connected with the matter was to be camouflaged." Then I miss the next paragraph. Then I read one sentence, the next line: "I do not know why five officers were interrogated in Berlin." And then, My Lord, I turn to Page 6. And, Witness, would you go to the bottom of your Page 10-the bottom of your Page 10-you just turn over the page in the ordinary way. My Lord, I take the middle paragraph. Just two paragraphs out of Page 6: "In a general way it may be of interest that, even before my departure for Berlin, Kriminalkommissar Dr. Absalon had told me that he had heard in Camp Sagan-he was told this in a very secretive way-that shootings were to take place in order to deter the of ricers. From this may be deduced the fact that the camp had already been informed through military channels of the order to shoot issued by Dr. Kaltenbrunner.
MR. ROBERTS: "It would be useful to ascertain what Goering knows about the whole affair, because the Fuehrer must surely have informed him of the order, since it concerned a camp of the Luftwaffe." (Document Number UK-48.) My Lord, that is all of that statement that I think I need to read. My Lord, I am anxious to avoid reading as much of the second statement as I possibly can, because there is a good deal of repetition. Will you take the second statement now, Witness? That one, I am afraid, has not been marked. The third paragraph, My Lord, the third and fourth paragraphs on the first page of the statement: "As to when the Staatspolizei had begun with the shootings, I am not in a position to say; but I imagine it happened when only very few prisoners were still at large and their recapture could no longer be reckoned with. "As regards the lapse of time between the order for 'Grossfahndung' and being shown the order for the shootings, this could only have been a matter of a few days. I can no longer recall exact dates. I do know however, for certain, that no shootings had taken place anywhere at the time when the order was shown to me." Then, perhaps, I could read the last paragraph but one on that page: "Before the last mass escape had taken place, I had heard nothing about the prospect of more drastic measures to be taken against the prisoners. I heard of it only after the final escape, but before I had been shown in Berlin the order for the shootings. It was then that Dr. Absalon had told me that he had heard in Sagan Camp-from whom I do not know, although I believe it was from Colonel Lindeiner-that in future shootings would take place. When this particular order was shown to me in Berlin, it appeared to me to be merely a proof that the military were behind this brutal measure or at least had had knowledge of it before the RSHA. "As regards the expression 'more than half' in the order of Kaltenbrunner, this is how the wording is now fixed in my mind.
MR. ROBERTS: It is, however, quite possible that a specific number was given, and that I, in quickly glancing through the order, interpreted it thus in my mind, 'but that is more than half,' and this is what has now stuck in my memory." My Lord, perhaps I might read-omitting the first several paragraphs which are really repetitions-a paragraph just a little more than halfway down the page. It begins: "I do not know how the Geheime Staatspolizei took over from the local police prisons those officers who were to be shot. It is, however, possible that the Stapo got into touch with the local of flees of the Kriminalpolizei. "In Lower Silesia, the firing squads were detailed by the officer in charge of the Staatspolizei, Dr. Scharpwinkel, or by his orders. I never heard who belonged to these squads." Then the last paragraph on that page: "I declare, in answer to the question as to why the Kripo did not carry out the shootings, that in the execution of its duties the Kriminalpolizei feel themselves bound by the provisions of the Stoatsprozessordnung and the Reichsstrafgesetzbuch, and that their personnel were trained in accordance with these standards. On the other hand, during the war, the Staatspolizei had, incised by Himmler, become less scrupulous. They carried out executions on the orders of the RSHA, or with the approval of that department, whenever required. That is the reason why the German citizens' general detestation of the Staatspolizei did not extend to the Kriminalpolizei. "The urns were obviously returned to the Kriminalpolizei for the sole reason that the intervention of the Staatspolizei should not become publicly known; that is, the English officers in the camp should not become aware of it." My Lord, I think that is all I need read.