dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON STEENGRACHT: I tried to settle within my own sphere of jurisdiction all cases which, according to instructions, I was not permitted to accept at all. But if a case here and there was of primary importance, or where the lives of several people could have been saved, I always applied to Ribbentrop. In most of these cases Ribbentrop took the matter before Hitler, after we had invented a new competence, so that he could not raise the objection that the Nuncio had no jurisdiction. Upon this, Hitler either absolutely rejected them or at least said that the police would have to investigate the case first. This presented the grotesque picture that in a humanitarian matter or an affair which under all circumstances had to be handled as foreign politics, the Foreign Minister no longer made the decision, but the Criminal Inspector Meier or Schulze who only needed to state "Undesirable in the interests of state security."
COL. AMEN: Did Ribbentrop obey the instructions which you say were received from the Fuehrer not to do anything about these complaints or did he not? "Yes" or "no"?
VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot answer that question since I do not know how many orders he received from Hitler and whether he obeyed in each individual case.
COL. AMEN: Well, you have been testifying that you received instructions not to do anything about these complaints from the Vatican; is that not correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, and I did not obey them.
COL. AMEN: Well, I am now asking you whether Ribbentrop obeyed those instructions or whether he did not.
VON STEENGRACHT: But he was in a higher position. What orders Hitler gave to Ribbentrop privately I cannot say since I do not know.
COL. AMEN: Where did you receive your instructions from?
VON STEENGRACHT: From Ribbentrop.
COL. AMEN: Ribbentrop has testified under interrogation that he knew nothing of what went on in any of these concentration camps until the Fuehrer ordered Luther to be placed in a concentration camp. Do you know who Luther was?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Who was he, please?
VON STEENGRACHT: Luther was an Under Secretary of State of the Foreign Office who was the head of the "Deutschland" department.
COL. AMEN: And when was he placed in a concentration camp?
VON STEENGRACHT: That must have been about February 1943.
COL. AMEN: Now, as a matter of fact, is it not true that Ribbentrop had a whole deskful of complaints from the Vatican about killings, atrocities, the starving of priests and nuns, to which he never made any reply at all, even an acknowledgment?
VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor; what happened before May 1943, I do not know. As long as I was State Secretary, I never failed to accept a note or failed to answer it. On the contrary, I accepted all notes and attempted, as I said before, to assist these people. Regarding conditions before my term of service, I cannot give you any information because I do not know them.
COL. AMEN: Well, I am not talking about that time; I am talking about the period immediately before and following your appearance there in '43. Now I want to read you from ...
VON STEENGRACHT: I am sorry. I would gladly answer your question if I knew anything about the matter. During my time -- I cannot say anything about it because I do not know.
COL. AMEN: Well, I will read to you from the interrogation of Ribbentrop and ask you whether what he says conforms with your recollection of the facts.
VON STEENGRACHT: I should, only like to say that until May 1943 I was not active politically, so that from my own knowledge I cannot make a statement about it.
COL. AMEN: Well, as I read the testimony to you, you will find that the interrogation refers to communications which remained in his desk unanswered for an indefinite period of time. Did you have access to Ribbentrop's desk? Did you knovr what was in it?
VON STEENGRACHT: No.
COL. AMEN: Does that conform with your recollection?
VON STEENGRACHT: That was, I must unfortunately say again, before my time. I cannot know whether he had a whole drawer full of things.
COL. AMEN: If they had remained in his desk from March until May, then you would know about them; isn't that correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: I? No. I was not Herr Ribbentrop's servant, who went over his chairs or drawers.
COL. AMEN: So that your testimony is that you knew nothing about any protests from the Vatican other than those which you have already referred to?
VON STEENGRACHT: Apart from those I have mentioned, I know nothing about protests. I emphasize again that during my time in office I accepted them all and answered them all.
COL. AMEN: I will read you further from the interrogation: Does that conform with your recollection?
VON SEEENGRACHT: Certainly, that is correct. That was in accordance with the instructions which were originally given.
COL. AMEN: By whom?
VON STEENGRACHT: Hitler's instructions.
COL. AMEN: To whom?
VON STEENGRACHT: Certainly to Ribbentrop.
COL. AMEN: Those are the instructions which you say that you were violating on the side, is that correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: Which I did not obey, for otherwise I would not have been allowed to accept the notes from the Vatican in all those cases where the jurisdiction was questioned; nor would I have been allowed to accept, for example, protests from the Swedish Ambassador regarding mistreatment in Norway, which, however, I also accepted.
COL. AMEN: I will continue to read from the interrogation: Does that conform with your recollection?
VON STEENGRACHT: That Ribbentrop did not receive the protests any more? Yes, that is correct, that tallies with what I said, that in all these cases, where we could not accept them, I tried to settle them on my own responsibility, since it was against orders.
COL. AMEN: And in the course of reading these complaints from the Vatican which went unanswered, both you and Ribbentrop learned full details of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, did you not?
VON STEENGRACHT: There was never anything about that in these notes -- the ones I saw -- there was never anything about the treatment in them. Instead they were concerned only with complaints asking why the death sentence was ever imposed, or why the clergyman was ever arrested, or similar cases, or the closing of churches or the like.
COL. AMEN: I do not want to take the time of the Tribunal to read to you the documents which are already in evidence. I am referring to Document Numbers 3261-PS, 3262-PS, 3264-PS, 3267-PS, 3268-PS and 3269-PS, but in those documents -- I am sorry, sir, 3269 is not in evidence. But in those documents, Witness, are set forth the details of numerous individual and collective cases of just what went on in concentration camps. You say you were not familiar with any of those matters?
VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor, I do not think that I expressed myself in that way. I gave you to understand that everything communicated to me by foreign diplomats I do, of course, know. In other words, if detailed reports were received during my term of office, then of course I know it. I never denied it.
THE PRESIDENT: What you said, Witness, was -- at least what I took down and understood you to say was -- that nothing was ever mentioned in the notes about the treatment in concentration camps.
VON STEENGRACHT: But I remarked with reference to the previous question, when the question was put generally as to whether I knew about conditions in concentration camps and the ill-treatment, I said that I knew everything that had been reported to me by foreign diplomats, by people of the opposition, and what I could learn from the foreign press. In other words, if these documents contained details during my time in office, then I know that too. But may I ask the date of the documents?
COL. AMEN: There are many documents with many dates, which can be obtained, but we don't want to take too much of the Tribunal's time. What I want to find out is whether or not you and Ribbentrop did not know all about the murders, tortures, starvations, and killings that were taking place in the concentration camps, and which were the subject of constant and continuous protests from the Vatican, which Ribbentrop has testified were not even read or acknowledged? Do you understand that, Witness?
VON STEENGRACHT: I understand that. I knew nothing at all of the ill-treatment in concentration camps to the degree and in the bestial way that I have heard about here. I must strongly protest against the suggestion that I had heard things like that through the Vatican at that time. Also, I am convinced that Herr Von Ribbentrop had no idea of the details as we have heard them here and as'they have been shown in the films.
COL. AMEN: Isn't it a fact, Witness, that if you had followed up any of these complaints from the Vatican which Ribbentrop, has testified were ignored, you would have found out everything which was going on in the concentration camps to the last detail? "Yes" or "no."
VON STEENGRACHT: No, that is not correct. I said yesterday already that perhaps the key to it can be found in the speech made by Himmler on 3 October 1943, in which he said that the action against Jews and the matter of concentration camps were to be kept just as secret as the matter of 30 June 1934. And the great majority of the German people will confirm the fact that until a short time ago they could not discover anything at all about these events. If I went to GruppenFuehrer Muller or other officials I was always told that everything in those concentration camps was functioning beautifully and that there could be no question of illtreatment. Then I insisted that the foreigners, particularly the Red Cross, inspect a concentration camp, and the Danish Red Cross was taken to the Concentration Camp Theresienstadt. After that inspection took place -- this was a camp for Jews -- the Danish Minister came to me and told me that contrary to expectation everything had been favorable there. I expressed my astonishment and he told me, "Yes, our people were there, there was a theater there, and their own police force, their own hospital, their own money; the thing is well-run." I had no reason, therefore, to doubt that it was true. But I myself could get no idea of the true conditions from any German department, since they would certainly have been afraid to tell a member of the Foreign Office anything about it. But I want to emphasize again that we really had no idea of the atrocities and such things.
COL. AMEN: Why in the world should they be afraid to advise the Foreign Office of these atrocities? Had the Foreign Office ever done anything to discourage them?
VON STEENGRACHT: In all matters which were violations of international law we attempted to bring the case to the attention of the Red Cross in one way or another. We did this particularly in all matters relating to prisoners of war and if anything appeared to be wrong we drew the attention of the Swiss Delegate to it, on our own initiative: "Go to this place and see what is going on." And in this case too, if I had gone to the Swiss and told them in confidence that this and that has occurred in the concentration camps, Switzerland and the Red Cross would probably have interfered, which could ultimately have led to unpleasant measures.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I think we ought to have an adjournment for 10 minutes.
COL. AMEN: I have only a few more questions. [A recess was taken.]
COL. AMEN: So far as you know, after Ribbentrop had received this deskful of complaints from the Vatican, which he neither read nor acknowledged, did Ribbentrop take any steps or do anything to find out whether those complaints were justified and true, or did he not?
VON STEENGRACHT: Regarding the complaints made before my time, I have no idea.
COL. AMEN: I am asking you about any complaints that were received from the Vatican that ever came to your attention, with particular reference, of course, to the deskful to which Ribbentrop himself has testified. Do you know of any steps that were ever taken by Ribbentrop in connection with complaints received from the Vatican about the atrocities taking place in concentration camps? Please try to answer "yes" or "no."
VON STEENGRACHT: So far as I recall he submitted complaints of this sort to Hitler, when he had the opportunity, and then waited for Hitler's order.
COL. AMEN: All right. And when Hitler told him to pay no attention whatsoever to these complaints, he, as usual, did exactly what the Fuehrer told him to do, namely, nothing. Is that correct, so far as you know?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, he obeyed Hitler's orders.
COL. AMEN: And did nothing?
VON STEENGRACHT: If that is how the order read, he did nothing, yes.
COL. AMEN: Well, didn't you tell the Tribunal that is what the directive from the Fuehrer was, to pay no attention to these complaints? "Yes" or "no," please.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And so, I say, Ribbentrop, as usual, did nothing about any of these complaints after the Fuehrer instructed him to disregard them. Is that right?
VON STEENGRACHT: I could not quite understand that question.
COL. AMEN: I say after Ribbentrop received instructions from the Fuehrer to disregard these complaints from the Vatican, Ribbentrop, as usual, did what he was directed, namely, nothing.
VON STEENGRACHT: I assume so, except for those cases where he nevertheless tried again and then received the same answer. I also know that he once appealed to Himmler and requested on principle that the actions against the Jews should not be carried out; and he proposed that Jewish children and women should, I believe, be turned over to England and America.
COL. AMEN: And you also know what reply he received to that suggestion, don't you?
VON STEENGRACHT: I do not know the answer.
COL. AMEN: Well, you are certainly familiar with the fact that no such thing was ever done, are you not?
VON STEENGRACHT: That it was never carried out? I did not understand the question.
COL. AMEN: The suggestion which you claim that Ribbentrop made to Himmler. That suggestion was never carried out, was it?
VON STEENGRACHT: I do not understand; in what way not carried out? So far as I know -- Ribbentrop appealed directly to the foreign countries at that time. I also do not know what answer he received at that time, at least not in detail.
COL. AMEN: Well, so far as you know, nothing ever came of that suggestion, correct?
VON STEENGRACHT: No, nothing came of it.
COL. AMEN: And, as a matter of fact, you know that Ribbentrop and Himmler were not on good terms anyway, do you not?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: That was a matter of common knowledge to everybody, wasn't it?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, the enmity became greater in the course of time.
COL. AMEN: So far as you know, did Ribbentrop take bromides every day?
VON STEENGRACHT: That I do not know. He...
COL. AMEN: You never saw him taking any?
VON STEENGRACHT: It could be; I do not know.
COL. AMEN: Well, did you ever see him taking any, or did he ever tell that he was taking them?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I remember now that he took some sort of red substance but I did not pay particular attention to it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have anything to do with whether he took bromides?
COL. AMEN: Yes, your Lordship, we will, because in his interrogations he claims that his memory as to many of these events has been obscured or removed by the over-use of such medicine.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
COL. AMEN: Now, Witness, were you incarcerated at one time at a place known as "Ash Can"?
VON STEENGRACHT: In a refuse can?
COL. AMEN: Outside of Luxembourg.
VON STEENGRACHT: In a refuse can? I cannot remember it.
COL. AMEN: Near Luxembourg.
VON STEENGRACHT: Locked in a refuse can? No, I do not remember.
COL.AMEN: After you were taken prisoner, where were you incarcerated?
VON STEENGRACHT: Mondorf.
COL. AMEN: For how long a period of time?
VON STEENGRACHT: In Mondorf altogether 11 weeks.
COL. AMEN: And at that time were numerous of the defendants in this case also incarcerated there?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And while you were there you were free to have conversations with some of the inmates?
VON STEENGBACHT: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And you did, from time to time, have such conversations? Right?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. I was not together with them all the time, because I was transferred to another camp.
COL. AMEN: Now, in the course of your conversations with one or another of the inmates there, did you make the statement which I am about to read to you, either in exact words or in substance? Do you understand the question? "Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him." Please answer "yes" or "no." Did you say that, Witness, did you say that?
VON STEENGRACHT: I should be grateful if I could hear that exactly again what I am supposed to have said.
COL. AMEN: Now remember, I am asking you whether you said it either in the exact words or in substance. Do you understand that?
VON STEENGRACHT: I did not precisely understand the German translation of your question.
COL. AMEN: Do you now understand it?
VON STEENGRACHT: I do not understand. I did not exactly understand the German translation.
COL. AMEN: Yes, but do you understand my question, namely, that you are to say, whether you used these exact words or some other similar words? I will now read it to you again. Do you understand?
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I would be grateful.
COL. AMEN: "Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him."
VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot recall that I ever made such statement. I would have to know to whom I am supposed to have said it.
COL. AMEN: Do you deny having made that statement, or is it simply that you can't remember whether you did or not?
VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot remember having said that.
COL. AMEN: Is it possible that you did?
VON STEENGRACHT: It could be that I made such a statement in some connection.
COL. AMEN: Very good.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the other prosecutors wish to ask any questions?
MAJOR GENERAL N. D. ZORYA (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): To save time, I shall restrict myself to a few question only. Insofar as I can understand the translation of your testimony which you submitted yesterday, you testified to the fact that besides the Ministry for Foreign Affairs many individuals and organization, had influenced Germany's foreign policy.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
GEN. ZORYA: Tell me, which of the defendants in the present Trial whom you see in the dock attempted to influence and did, to a certain extent, influence Germany's foreign policy.
VON STEENGRACHT: Foreign policy was, of course, after the beginning of the war...
GEN. ZORYA: I must ask you here and now not to make any declaration on Germany's foreign policy, but to indicate precisely, in the form of a reply to my question, which of the defendants in the present Trial attempted to influence and did influence Germany's foreign policy?
VON STEENGRACHT: The basic lines of foreign policy were determined solely by Hitler. The fact that we had occupied many countries and in these various countries had occupied the mos varied positions ...
GEN. ZORYA: We know all about that. I ask you to indicate by name, which of the defendants in the present Trial attempted to influence and did influence Germany's foreign policy. Is my question clear to you?
VON STEENGRACHT: Foreign policy, as I stated yesterday, was in its broad outlines determined by Hitler alone; but those people who were assigned to special fields naturally exercised some influence in one respect or another. For example, some one who had a special assignment concerning the police, carried out police measures; some one who had to take care of labor problems conducted labor affairs. The same is true of other sectors.
GEN. ZORYA: You still do not answer my question. I ask you to indicate, regardless of the form and extent of his influence, which of the defendants in the current Trial attempted to influence, and did influence, in one form or another, Germany's foreign policy, and this apart from representatives of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs.
VON STEENGRACHT: I assume that you are asking this question in relation to Russia; as the Foreign Office no longer had jurisdiction after the entrance of German troops into Russia ...
GEN. ZORYA: I request you to understand my question thoroughly and to answer which of the defendants, and in what form, regardless of concrete facts of foreign policy, attempted to influence this foreign policy of Germany and did, in effect, so influence it.
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. As regards Russia, the Eastern ministry was competent for these questions.
GEN. ZORYA: No, not as regards Russia.
VON STEENGRACHT: In Norway Terboven laid down the policy. Quite naturally he influenced Hitler in his attitude toward Norway and Norwegian problems. In the same way the individual chiefs of the administrations in the individual countries exerted influence depending on how close they could come to Hitler with their reports.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want you to make speeches; we want you to answer the question. You weren't asked who influenced the foreign policy, but which of the defendants influenced foreign policy. You may say none, or you may say some. It is a question that you must be able to answer.
VON STEENGRACHT: I would assume that Rosenberg had something to say regarding Russia, Frank had something to say regarding Poland, Seyss-Inquart had something to say regarding Holland. Other matters touched only special sectors. Naturally the SS had something to say; the Wehrmacht had something to say, also the various other offices and they naturally all exerted a certain influence but only a certain influence. However, the basic policy was conducted solely by Hitler.
GEN. ZORYA: Do you not wish in this connection to name the Defendant Goering?
VON STEENGRACHT: Goering carried on the Four Year Plan and in this capacity he naturally also exercised a certain influence on Russia.
GEN. ZORYA: What did this influence consist of?
VON STEENGRACHT: There again I must say that I and the Foreign Office had nothing to do with Russia, and that we were strictly forbidden to intervene in Russian affairs. In the sphere of propaganda and the press we were in no way permitted to become active. For this reason I am especially badly informed on Russian affairs.
GEN. ZORYA: Did the Defendant Goering have any influence in other questions besides the Russian question?
VON STEENGRACHT: I did not understand the question in German.
GEN. ZORYA: Besides the Russian question, did the Defendant Goering exercise any influence on other questions in the sphere of foreign policy?
VON STEENGRACHT: I would say that until the year 1938 he certainly had influence over Hitler in matters of foreign policy.
GEN. ZORYA: You have stated in your testimony that in July '44 the Ministry for Foreign Affairs participated in preparations for the anti-Jewish Congress which, it was assumed, would be held in Krakow. Will you please answer this question briefly, "yes" or "no."
VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.
GEN. ZORYA: Do you know who were the candidates for honorary membership in this congress?
VON STEENGRACHT: Probably there were many, Ribbentrop among others, as far as I still remember today.
GEN. ZORYA: Who else from among the defendants?
VON STEENGRACHT: I really cannot say. As far as I remember, Rosenberg and a large number of other leading personalities, but I cannot recall their names any longer. Naturally there are documents on the subject, so that it can be ascertained without trouble.