dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIEVERS: I did not say that at all. Here we are concerned with the entire historical development of this matter, and in that connection I just cannot say from what moment on this matter started, for that can be traced back directly to conversations between Himmler and Hirt, which took place before Hirt became director of anatomy at Strasbourg University. In that capacity, he had the opportunity of carrying out his task of setting up a modern anatomical institute supplied with the necessary modern scientific facilities and collections. Thereupon Hirt, in view of his previous conversations with Himmler, made the application as may be seen from the report. Then I received the order to help Hirt in this task assigned to him by Himmler. I do not know whether Himmler himself ...
MAJOR JONES: Just a moment, Witness. How many human beings were killed to create this collection of skeletons?
SIEVERS: 150 people are mentioned in this report.
MAJOR JONES: That was all you assisted in murdering, was it?
SIEVERS: I had nothing to do with the murdering of these people. I simply carried through the function of a mailman.
MAJOR JONES: You were the post office, another of these distinguished Nazi post offices, were you?
SIEVERS: If you wish to refer, as I gather from-your question, to my interrogation before the Commission, I must point out that in the interrogation before the Commission only the group Rascher was under discussion.
MAJOR JONES: I asked you quite clearly when I cross-examined you before the Commission: "How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with the Rascher and other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science?" and you told me, "I cannot say, because I had no insight into these matters at all." Fortunately there are records of what you witnesses say available. Now, just turn to the next document, Number ...
SIEVERS: Even today I cannot give definite dates, and I do not know the exact number of persons used by Rascher for experiments. Therefore I cannot tell you that there were a certain number, since I do not know.
MAJOR JONES: You swore to the Commissioner that you had no insight into these matters. Turn to Document 087, so that your memory may be refreshed. That will be GB-577. It is Page 14 of Your Lordship's document book. [Turning to the witness.] This is another of your letters. It is headed: "Amt Ahnenerbe," "Institute of Scientific Research for Military Purposes." You were the director of that institute, were you not?
SIEVERS: Yes. I was the Reich manager.
MAJOR JONES: Yes. This is dated 21 June 1943. It is marked "Top Secret," to the RSHA, Department IV B 4, for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann. "Subject:' Establishment of a collection of skeletons." "Referring to your letter of 25 September 1942 ... and the personal conversations which have since taken place on this subject, I wish to inform you that our collaborator, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Haagen, who was in charge of, the above special project .. broke off his experiments in the Concentration Camp Auschwitz on 15 June 1943 because of the existing danger of epidemics. "Altogether 115 persons were experimented on..." Let me just pause there for a moment. What form of experiments were going on on these human beings with a view to the collection of skeletons? What sort of experiments were they, Witness?
SIEVERS: Anthropological measurements.
MAJOR JONES: Before they were murdered, they were anthropologically measured? That was all there was to it, was it?
SIEVERS: And casts were taken.
MAJOR JONES: It does not take very long to make an anthropological measurement or to take a cast, you know, Witness. There were some other experiments than measurements and casts carried out on these unfortunate victims of your science, were there not?
SIEVERS: I am not familiar with this type of work in Auschwitz. I know only that anthropological measurements were taken, but I do not know how long these measurements took.
MAJOR JONES: I will continue your letter now, which makes it quite clear that there must have been something far more sinister than anthropological measurements. "Altogether 115 persons were experimented on. 79 were Jews; 30 were Jewesses, 2 were Poles and 4 were Asiatics. At the moment these prisoners are segregated by sex and are under quarantine in two hospital buildings of the Concentration Camp Auschwitz. "For further experimentation on these selected prisoners it will be necessary to have them transferred to the Concentration Camp Natzweiler. This transfer should be made as speedily as possible in view of the existing danger of an epidemic at Auschwitz. A list of the people selected is attached. "It is requested to issue the necessary directives. Since this transfer of prisoners presents a certain amount of danger of spreading the epidemic to Natzweiler, we request that immune and clean prisoner clothing for 80 men and 30 women be sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz immediately. At the same time lodgings should be prepared for the women at Natzweiler for a short time." That is your letter. If your only interest in these unfortunate people was their anthropological measurements and the securing of their frail bones for skeletons, why did you not kill them straightaway? You must have made experiments on them, the results of which you wanted to discover, did you not?
SIEVERS: No, I know nothing whatever of experiments, and such experiments were not carried on.
MAJOR JONES: What happened to this collection of skeletons? Where was it assembled?
SIEVERS: It was taken to Natzweiler, and the further treatment was in the hands of Professor Hirt.
MAJOR JONES: After SS Professor Hirt and the other SS men had murdered these people, what happened to their bodies? Where were they sent?
SIEVERS: I assume that they were taken to the Anatomical Institute at Strasbourg.
MAJOR JONES: Have you any doubt in your mind about that, Witness? You seem to be hesitant about admitting it. Have you any doubt?
SIEVERS: Well, I have seen no reports about that and did not receive any.
MAJOR JONES: Did you have anything to do with the disposal of those skeletons and those bodies ultimately? Did you have anything to do with the ultimate disposal of those bodies? I appreciate your difficulty in answering the question.
SIEVERS: No. That was in the hands of Professor Hirt. I was not at Strasbourg or Natzweiler in this connection at all.
MAJOR JONES: Did you make any suggestion as to what should happen to the collection at any time?
SIEVERS: It was much later, when questions arose concerning the occupation of Strasbourg and where the collection was to be deposited.
MAJOR JONES: What did you do, then?
SIEVERS: I believe a conference took place-I cannot exactly tell you with whom-to obtain a decision on the part of Himmler as to where the collection was to, be housed.
MAJOR JONES: Were you present at that conference?
SIEVERS: I did not talk with Himmler about that matter then.
MAJOR JONES: Did you make any suggestion as to what should happen and what should be done with the human bodies that you had assembled at Strasbourg? Did you have any suggestions to make?
SIEVERS: I cannot say any more. I no longer remember.
MAJOR JONES: Just try to recollect, will you? I'm sure you know. It was 1944. It's not very long ago. I'm sure it must be very vivid in your memory.
SIEVERS: I am sorry; I cannot give you an exact answer because I do not remember.
MAJOR JONES: Witness, when the Allied armies were approaching Strasbourg and the day of reckoning was coming for you, what suggestion did you make with regard to these bodies in Strasbourg? Tell the Court.
SIEVERS: I said that I asked Himmler to make a decision as to what was to become of this collection. This was an affair which originated from conversations and ideas between Himmler and Hirt, and I was drawn into it because of the administrative and technical dispatch of the matter; and therefore Himmler alone could decide what was to be done.
MAJOR JONES: I've again given you an opportunity to protect yourself from perjury. Look at the Document Number 088 at Page 15 of Your Lordship's document book; it will be GB-578. This is another of the letters from your personal staff to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant; and it is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff Department; and that's the Ahnenerbe. It was dated 5 September 1944. It is marked "Top Secret." The Allied armies were advancing towards Strasbourg, weren't they, by then?
SIEVERS: Yes, that is correct.
MAJOR JONES: The subject is "Collection of Jewish skeletons." "According to the proposal of 9 February.1942 and your approval of 23 February 1942 ... Professor Dr. Hirt has assembled the skeleton collection which was previously nonexistent. In view of the vast amount of scientific research connected therewith, the job of reducing the corpses to skeletons has not yet been completed. Since this requires some time for 80 corpses, Hirt requests directives as to what should be done with the collection stored in the morgue of the Anatomical Institute in case Strasbourg should be endangered. "The corpses can be stripped of, the flesh and thereby rendered unidentifiable. This, however, would mean that at least part of the whole work had been done for nothing and that this unique collection would be lost to science, since it would be impossible to make plaster casts afterwards. The skeleton collection as such is inconspicuous. The flesh parts could be declared as having been left by the French at the time we took over the Anatomical Institute and would be turned over for cremating. Please advise me which of the following three proposals is to be carried out: 1) The collection as a whole to be preserved; 2) The collection to be dissolved in part; 3) The collection to be completely dissolved." Why were you wanting to deflesh the bodies, Witness?
SIEVERS: In this connection I must say that this letter reached me as an inquiry from Professor Hirt and was passed on by me in this teletype letter. As I said previously, for this reason I could not exactly remember it, for as a layman the entire manner of treatment was totally unknown to me.
MAJOR JONES: Why were you suggesting that the blame should be passed on to the French? You knew there was murder in connection with this collection, didn't you? You knew it perfectly well, Witness.
SIEVERS: I just said that I transmitted an inquiry from Professor Hirt; and that explains that I could not put an inquiry of my own in this form, for I as a layman could have no opinion in this matter. I stated that this was an inquiry by Hirt which was passed on by me.
MAJOR JONES: Were you able to carry out the suggestion of the defleshing of these bodies?
SIEVERS: I cannot tell you anything about that, for I cannot quite imagine how it was done.
MAJOR JONES: Happily, again there is a document which indicates the whole story. Just look at it, because it is clear that you have no intention of telling the truth; Document Number 091, Exhibit GB-579. There are two following notes from Himmler's file. The first note, signed by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg: "On 12 October 1944 1 had a telephone conversation with SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers and asked him if the Strasbourg skeleton collection had been completely dissolved as directed by SS Standartenfuehrer Baumert. SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt. I told him that in case the dissolution had not yet been carried out, a certain part of the collection should be preserved. However, every guarantee must be given that a complete dissolution could be made in time in case Strasbourg should be in danger. SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers promised me that he would find out about it and let me know." And then the next entry, on 26 October 1944, a note for Dr. Brandt: "During his visit at the operational headquarters on 21 October 1944, SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers told me that the collection in Strasbourg had been completely dissolved in the meantime in accordance with the directive given him at the time. He is of the opinion that this arrangement is for the best in view of the whole situation."
SIEVERS: The authenticity of my testimony can be seen from the remarks of Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg, for he says "Standartenfuehrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt." So in every respect I was always dependent upon the statements, reports, and proposals of Professor Hirt. My own attitude in these matters did not play any role whatsoever. As I have already mentioned in the interrogations before the Commission, I was not responsible for any action taken, nor could I prevent any action.
MAJOR JONES: You were the business manager in this scientific experiment in murder, weren't you. That was your function? You were a vital cog in the machine of this "Ahnenerbe"?
SIEVERS: It was by no means an important part, as may be seen from the Commission findings. The "Ahnenerbe" comprised more than 50 departments and had great research projects on a scientific basis in accord with its original intentions. It occupied itself with these projects so exclusively that these matters, in which I think it became unfortunately involved through Himmler, hardly played any part in it at all. In vain did I try to prevent this connection.
MAJOR JONES: You go as far as to admit that certain unfortunate matters did arise in connection with the work of the Ahnenerbe, do you?
SIEVERS: I never disputed that in the past.
MAJOR JONES: What was your connection with the experiments on human beings in connection with the poison gas or poisoned chemical "Lost," experiments on counteragents for wounds caused by your preparation, "Lost"?
SIEVERS: Professor Hirt developed a therapeutic treatment for the curing of "Lost" wounds. In the development of this method of therapy, he experimented on himself, an experiment which seriously damaged his health, as can be seen from the documents submitted here now.
MAJOR JONES: Did he experiment on anyone other than himself?
SIEVERS: I shall continue., Himmler was interested in these experiments and was quite excited when he heard that Hirt had done these experiments on his own person; and in this connection he referred to a Fuehrer decree that in the case of such experiments volunteers from among prisoners or criminals who had been sentenced to death should be chosen. Thereupon Hirt, and only at Himmler's request, made checks on 20 persons, that is, when he had already ascertained from his own experiments that lasting injury would not arise any longer. He further pointed out that it was much more important-and this was really our first working contact with Hirt-that sufficient experimental animals should be procured for the experiments, for at the outbreak of the war the supply of experimental animals had diminished to such an extent that necessary scientific experiments could no longer be carried out ...
MAJOR JONES: Just a moment, Witness. Can't you answer my questions without going into these lengthy speeches? Did you substitute human beings for animals for the purpose of these experiments?
SIEVERS: You mean in connection with Professor Hirt?
MAJOR JONES: Certainly.
SIEVERS: Yes, I just said that after the experiments on his own person he experimented on 20 people who volunteered for this experiment.
MAJOR JONES: Did you write to Brandt in connection with the "Lost" experiments, explaining certain difficulties that you were getting with the Natzweiler Concentration Camp?
SIEVERS: I do not have the document before me.
MAJOR JONES: Don't worry yourself. Just try to answer my question. Don't worry whether you have the document before you. I appreciate it will be embarrassing if it is found. Just answer my question: Did you write to Brandt in connection with these "Lost" experiments, describing difficulties you were having from the concentration camp?
SIEVERS: I do not remember in detail what difficulties were involved. It may be that I wrote that.
MAJOR JONES: Try to recollect what you wrote about in connection with these "Lost" experiments, will you?
SIEVERS: Well, I can only mention now as before that these things came to me on the basis of notes and reports from Hirt and that I transmitted these matters without being able to recall them in detail, because these were single incidents among the great mass of my work, so that details could no longer remain in my memory after this length of time.
MAJOR JONES: I appreciate the mass of work you were involved in. I have four or five other experiments in murder to draw your attention to. But just look at the Document Number 092, Page 19 of Your Lordship's document book, GB-580. That is a letter from Brandt to you. It is addressed to you, SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers, the Ahnenerbe society, dated 3 December 1942. "I have your note of 3 November 1942 in front of me today. At the time I could only speak to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl very shortly. If I remember correctly, he even sent me a letter informing me that he would have the deficiencies which you described taken care of, but I did not have time to enumerate them in detail. I had just received your letter the same morning on which I went to see SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Therefore, it was impossible for me to read it before hand. I only remembered what you had told me during our last conversation. If it should be necessary for me to take this matter up again, will you please let me know." Now, what were those deficiencies which you had described in your note to Pohl? Just try to remember them.
SIEVERS: I cannot tell you what that dealt with in detail. Please show me the note.
MAJOR JONES: Can you not recollect at all what the difficulty was? Was it connected with the payment for the prisoners to be experimented on?
SIEVERS: I do not recall that.
MAJOR JONES: In any event, these experiments in connection with the "Lost" went on as far as April 1944, didn't they?
SIEVERS: I cannot tell you that from memory.
MAJOR JONES: Try to recollect. Didn't they go on until April 1944? Just look at Document Number 015. You are being totally uncooperative. That would be GB-581. That is another of your letters to the Reichsfuehrer SS. On Page 6 of your document book, My Lord. To the Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff, Department A, your society. It is dated 11 April 1944. "Top secret." It is from you to Brandt. "Subject: Fuehrer's order of 1 March 1944. "Dear Comrade Brandt: In accordance with orders, I got in touch with SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt and informed him in Beelitz on 31 March about the research work conducted by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt. On this occasion I handed to him the plan for the treatment of L.-damage..." That is "Lost" damage, is it not, Witness?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: ". . worked out by Professor Hirt, a copy of which I enclose for you for presentation to the Reichsfuehrer SS, if the occasion should arise. Professor Brandt tells me that he will be in Strasbourg in the first week in April and that he intends to discuss details with Professor Hirt then." Now, you see that those experiments on human beings with this poison "Lost" went on right through to 1944, didn't they?
SIEVERS: No,' it is not true that way. This letter goes back to the following: Professor Brandt was made commissioner general for questions pertaining to chemicals for warfare. I received a copy of this report appointing him, with instructions that now, since his appointment had taken place, I should have Hirt talk with Brandt. Hirt told me that he could not travel to see Brandt at Beelitz just for that. Therefore, at the request of Hirt, I went to see Brandt.
MAJOR JONES: All right, Witness. I want you to turn now to another aspect of your work, the Rascher experiments. You remember telling me that you had no insight into the Rascher experiments?
SIEVERS: I stated that I had a general insight, but knew nothing of particulars.
MAJOR JONES: I want you to look now at your diary for the year 1944, the Ahnenerbe Diary, Document Number 3546-PS. It has already been marked Exhibit GB-551. Your Lordship will find a few extracts from it at Page 29 of the document book. Witness, I have made certain extracts from your diary, and it might be convenient for you to follow those extracts, and if you want to check them against your own diary, you will be able to do so. They show how in that year you were intimately connected with Rascher and all these other murderous activities. The first entry is for 6 January, 1830 hours. SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher: Paragraph "c) Letter from Reichsfuehrer SS to Obergruppenfuehrer Pob-1 about assistance for scientific research work. d) Rooms for carrying through of freezing experiments." They were at Dachau, weren't they?
SIEVERS: Yes, they were to be carried through, but as I have already said in the Commission interrogations, this was not done. These are notes about a conversation with Rascher in which he was reporting on these matters.
MAJOR JONES: Witness, are you saying that the freezing experiments at Dachau were not carried through?
SIEVERS: Rascher told me that he would not be able to carry through these experiments, that they would have to be carried through in a locality requiring constantly extremely cold temperatures, and so these experiments did not take place.
MAJOR JONES: But you actually saw some of these experiments yourself being carried out, didn't you, in Dachau? You were in Dachau from time to time?
SIEVERS: I am afraid that there is some confusion here between the freezing experiments by the Luftwaffe and the freezing experiments which were to be carried out later on in connection with the cold in the East. Here in the year 1944 we are concerned with the experiments in freezing ...
MAJOR JONES: Which are the freezing experiments that you used to watch?
SIEVERS: I know only the freezing experiments carried on under the Luftwaffe.
MAJOR JONES: Did you see any of them being carried on?
SIEVERS: I had the order to accompany Professor Hirt who, together with Rascher, was to work on this problem and to arrive at a solution. I was present at one of those experiments.
MAJOR JONES: Now we will go to the Document Number 3546-PS, a little further. I have selected some random entries from it to show your close association with this matter. "23 January, 1130 hours, report to RFSS together with Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt. 1. We shall receive the reports of Professor Schilling." Now, Professor Schilling is the man who has been sentenced to death for his malaria experiments at Dachau, isn't he?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: He was also part of your team of scientists, wasn't he?
SIEVERS: We had nothing to do with Schilling at this report...
MAJOR JONES: You only received his reports, that is all; was it?
SIEVERS: That was the first time that the work of Schilling was mentioned to me at all. And Himmler explained at this meeting that Schilling had arrived at results on immunization which attracted attention. This report was to be given to us so that the Entomology Institute could take cognizance of the results that Dr. May had obtained in malaria experiments with the anopheles mosquito.
MAJOR JONES: We will go on to the next entry in the diary, 28 January. Your own diary has a daily entry of all the details, but here is another extract: "Co-operation with Institute R, Dachau, that is Rascher's institute at Dachau, is it not?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: Then, 29 January, "With Hauptsturmfuehrer Rascher and Dr. Pacholegg to Dablem." Who was Dr. Pacholegg?
SIEVERS: Dr. Pacholegg was a prisoner whom Rascher was using as assistant.
MAJOR JONES: You knew him quite well yourself, I take it?
SIEVERS: I saw him perhaps two or three times.