dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SAUTER: To revert to an earlier stage: What did the Defendant Funk say when you explained during your first conversation with him that you would not willingly take over those things because one often had a lot of trouble with such matters?
PUHL: My objections were subordinated to the broader consideration of assisting the SS, all the more-and this must be emphasized -because these things were for the account of the Reich.
DR. SAUTER: Did you discuss whether these things, particularly gold, should be converted by the Reichsbank or melted down?
PUHL: No, not in detail; it was merely said that the officials of the Reichsbank should offer their good services to the SS.
DR. SAUTER: I do not quite understand. The good services of the Reichsbank officials consist in receiving these valuables into safe-keeping and locking them up?
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were the services of your of finials to go beyond that?
PUHL: Yes, inasmuch as the SS people were to come and remove from the containers whatever had to be surrendered.
DR. SAUTER: For instance, gold coins, foreign currency, et cetera?
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Then did you see-to come back to the question already put-did you see what arrived, what the SS delivered?
PUHL: No, not personally. This happened far away from my office, in quite a different building, downstairs in the strong-rooms which I, as Vice President of the Reichsbank, would not normally enter without a special reason.
DR. SAUTER: Did you, as Vice President, visit these strongrooms frequently?
PUHL: It was a habit of mine, sometimes at an interval of three months or longer, to go through the strong-rooms; if there was some occasion for it, for instance, when there was a visitor to be conducted or some new installation to be discussed, or when there was something of importance beyond mere attendance on the safes and the clients.
DR. SAUTER: But, of course, as Vice President, you had nothing to do with attending to customers?
PUHL: No.
DR. SAUTER: And I should like to put the same question to you with regard to the Defendant Funk. Did the Defendant Funk, who moreover belonged to the Reichsbank only in part, go to the strongrooms often? If so, how often and for what reason? And did he see what had been handed in by the SS?
PUHL: The answer is that Funk, too, went to the strong-rooms on special occasions, for example, when there were foreign visitors. Naturally, I would not know how often, nor whether he saw the SS deposits. That depends on whether the strong-room officials who were conducting him pointed them out to him.
DR. SAUTER: Did you, Witness, see the things which came from the SS-did you see them yourself?
PUHL: No, never.
DR. SAUTER: Never?
PUHL: Never.
DR. SAUTER: Do you think that the Defendant Funk saw them?
PUHL: I cannot tell that, of course; it depends on whether the strong-room officials pointed out specifically: "Here is the deposit of the SS."
DR. SAUTER: Then I presume you cannot give us any information on how these things of the SS were actually kept or how they were packed?
PUHL: No.
DR. SAUTER: Whether in boxes or . . .
PUHL: No, I do not know that.
DR. SAUTER: Did you talk again about this whole affair of the SS deposits with the Defendant Funk?
PUHL: Hardly at all, as far as I can remember. But I must certainly have talked to him a second time, after Herr Pohl had visited me, since it was, of course, my task and my duty to keep Funk informed of everything.
DR. SAUTER: Did the members of the Reichsbank Directorate, the board of directors, attach a special significance to this whole matter so that there might have been occasion to discuss it more frequently? Or was it regarded as just an unpleasant but unimportant sort of business?
PUHL: No. At the beginning there was probably a report on it to the meeting of the Directorate, but then it was not mentioned again.
DR. SAUTER: You cannot recollect having later again talked of the matter with Funk? But it is possible, if I understood you correctly, that after the settlement with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, you may again have reported about it briefly? Did I understand you correctly?
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, in your affidavit under Figure 5, you say that among the articles deposited by the SS were jewelry, watches, spectacle frames, gold fillings-apparently these dental fillings-and other articles in large quantities which the SS had taken away from Jews and concentration camp victims and other persons. How do you know that?
PUHL: I know that from my interrogations at Frankfurt.
DR. SAUTER: You were told about these things during your interrogations in Frankfurt after your arrest?
PUHL: And they were shown to me.
DR. SAUTER: You had no knowledge of them while you were free and administered the Reichsbank as Vice President?
PUHL: No, because, I repeat it again, we never discussed this in the Directorate, since it was of no basic significance for currency or banking policy or in any other respect.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, if at that time in 1942 you had known that these were articles which the SS had taken away from many concentration camp victims, would you have received them into safe-keeping?
PUHL: No.
DR. SAUTER: What would you have done?
PUHL: Then we would have come to some decision on the attitude which the bank as a whole should adopt toward this problem.
DR. SAUTER: Who would have had the decisive word?
PUHL: The decision would have been made by the Directorate of the Reichsbank as an executive group, as a corporate body, and then it would have been submitted to the President for countersignature.
DR. SAUTER: Earlier-I must fill in this gap in connection with your affidavit-you expressed yourself in a rather misleading way. You stated earlier: "This was brought to our knowledge, because the SS personnel attempted to convert This material into gold, into cash." And today you say that you heard of it only after your arrest. Apparently, if I understand you correctly, there must be . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, I do not understand why you say "earlier." It is the sentence which followed the sentence which you put to him.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say "earlier" then? Why do you say "earlier"?
DR. SAUTER: In his affidavit-if the wording of the affidavit is correct and there is no misunderstanding-the witness said...
THE PRESIDENT: What I am pointing out to you is that the first sentence reads like this: "The material deposited by the SS included all these items taken from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons by the SS." And it then goes on, "This was brought to our knowledge by the SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash." What you are now putting to him is that that acceptance was put to him earlier. At least that is what I understood you to say.
DR. SAUTER: No; the witness said today that he was told only during his interrogations in Frankfurt-on-Main that these articles had been taken from concentration camp victims, et cetera. The affidavit, however, can and must be interpreted in my opinion as saying that he received this information, already before his arrest, through the SS personnel and that apparently is not true. For that reason I asked the witness whether this expression in the affidavit is not a misunderstanding. Now, Witness, if I may repeat this: You first heard that these articles belonged to concentration camp victims at your interrogation?
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: And when did you learn what was contained in this deposit; when did you know that, to pick out one example, gold teeth were contained in it?
PUHL: Not at all. No details of this transaction were submitted to the Directorate by the strong-room or safe officials.
DR. SAUTER: So of this, too, you heard only after your arrest?
PUHL: Of the details, yes.
DR. SAUTER: Good. Now, you speak of an agreement which, according to the statement of Funk, Himmler, the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, is said to have made with the Reich Minister of Finance. What do you know about this agreement?
PUHL: That is the agreement I have already mentioned. It was clear from the beginning that the value of the things deposited with us was to be credited to the Ministry of Finance.
DR. SAUTER: Not to the SS?
PUHL: No, not to the SS.
DR. SAUTER: Why not? The SS were the depositors, were they not?
PUHL: Yes, but they maintained that their actions were carried out in the name and on behalf of the Reich and its accounts.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know whether these valuables, which in some way had been confiscated or stolen by the SS in the East, were placed as a matter of principle at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance?
PUHL: I did not quite understand the question. Are you referring to these articles or to confiscated articles, valuables in general?
DR. SAUTER: To all valuables. I am speaking of gold, foreign currency, and so forth, all these valuables acquired by the SS in the East; were they all to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance, and not of the Reichsbank?
PUHL: The equivalent value?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, the equivalent value.
PUHL: The equivalent value was credited to the Reich Ministry of Finance.
DR. SAUTER: In this connection, Witness, may I show you two accounts. I do not know whether you have seen them. They are two accounts of the chief cashier's office of your bank.
PUHL: Yes, to us.
DR. SAUTER: I should like you, then, to look at them, and to tell me whether you have seen them before and what you know about them?
PUHL: I saw these two copies-photostat copies-during my interrogations.
DR. SAUTER: But not earlier?
PUHL: No, not earlier. And from these photostat copies it is clear-we have just discussed it-that the equivalent value was to be credited to the Reich Chief Cashier's Office, as it says here; the Reich Chief Cashier's Office was a part of the Ministry of Finance.
DR. SAUTER: So apparently it is connected with this agreement, of which you heard, that finally all these things belonged to the Reich Ministry of Finance, to the Reich.
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Now I have one More question on this subject. And I would like to know whether perhaps there is a misunderstanding in this case too. You say in the affidavit that Funk told you this matter should be kept absolutely secret; that is the wording. You did not mention this point at all today, although we have the affidavit in front of us. Will you say now whether this is true or whether it is a misunderstanding?
PUHL: That it should be kept secret? No.
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
PUHL: Of course, this matter was to be kept secret, but then everything that happens in a bank must be kept secret.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, this statement cannot, of course, satisfy us. Did you, during your interrogation of 3 May, say what is contained in this document, namely, that the matter was to be kept absolutely secret, or did you express yourself in different words?
PUHL: No, the wording of the affidavit is correct; the matter was to be kept absolutely secret.
DR. SAUTER: Why?
PUHL: Why? Because, plainly, such matters are usually kept secret and are not publicized; furthermore, these things came from the East. I repeat what I said before, that our attitude towards confiscated articles was always to avoid them.
DR. SAUTER: Did it strike you as unusual that the Defendant Funk spoke of keeping the matter secret?
PUHL: No.
DR. SAUTER: Or did it not strike you as unusual?
PUHL: Not as unusual.
DR. SAUTER: Not as unusual?.
PUHL: No. It was merely decided in the conversation that since we were not willing to accept the confiscated articles of the foreign exchange control offices and the customs offices, we should, naturally, insist on secrecy in accepting these articles.
DR. SAUTER: Yes. But from your account of the matter, it appears that, on one hand, you considered the business to be perfectly legal, and you yourself say that it was perfectly legal; on the other hand, secrecy was for you, as an old banking expert, a matter of course. Now the question arises, why then was the subject of keeping the matter secret discussed at all?
PUHL: Herr Funk himself had been asked to keep the matter as secret as possible, and he passed on that request.
DR. SAUTER: When did Funk tell you that he had been asked to keep it secret?
PUHL: I do not remember that.
DR. SAUTER: Did you not ask him why it should be kept secret, absolutely secret, as you say? I do not know whether you still maintain "absolutely secret"?
PUHL: Yes, a special duty of observing secrecy was to be imposed on the officials.
DR. SAUTER: Well, what did you, as Vice President, as Managing Vice President, say to that?
PUHL: I did not say anything because, if that had been agreed upon, then this wish would have to be complied with
DR. SAUTER: But you do not know whether it had been agreed upon?
PUHL: Well, I assume that it was agreed upon.
DR. SAUTER: You consider it possible?
PUHL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: And-to repeat this-you did hot at all see the articles which arrived?
PUHL: No, not at an.
DR. SAUTER: And probably you do not know how many there were?
PUHL: No, I do not know that either; and, as I said before, I never saw an account; that was not in conformity with our procedure, as individual transactions were not submitted to the members of the Directorate.
DR. SAUTER: I ask because recently, when this case was discussed, it was asserted that whole truckloads of such articles, whole truckloads had arrived. You are already laughing and you will laugh more when I tell you that 47 truckloads of gold were said to have arrived at your bank; and you knew nothing about them?
PUHL: I have never heard of that.
DR. SAUTER: You heard nothing about that? Witness, we will leave this point and turn to the second point in your affidavit of May, with which we can deal very briefly. I think you knew Herr Pohl, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, of whom you spoke just now, already in 1942?
PUHL: Yes, but none the less this was the first occasion on which Pohl came to my office.
DR. SAUTER: This is no reproach, I just wanted to establish a fact. You knew him as a result of this first credit transaction which took place at an earlier time.
PUHL: Yes, that may be.
DR. SAUTER: The Defendant Funk says, you see, that as far as he can remember this credit matter-and he did not attach any special significance to it at the time-it was negotiated about 1940, some time before the other transaction. Can that be true? Approximately?
PUHL: I can neither deny nor confirm that; I no longer recall the date of the credit.
DR. SAUTER: Well, in your affidavit you state, with reference to this credit, that the Reichsbank had granted a credit of 10 or 12 millions to the SS, I believe to pay off a loan which the SS had taken up with another bank. And you say that this credit was used for financing production in factories directed by the SS, where workers from concentration camps were employed. Witness, I am not primarily interested in this credit as such because it was, of course, part of your business as a bank; and the figure of, I think, 10 or 12 millions was also not unusual. But I am interested in how you knew that this money was to be used for SS factories in which workers from concentration camps were employed. How did you know that?
PUHL: The application for credit came from the Economic Department of the SS which I have mentioned before. This department was directing a number of factories in Germany, and needed money for that purpose. The Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give this credit, but only in the form of regular business credits. In other words, the debtor had to submit a balance sheet to us and at regular intervals had to report on his production, his general financial position, his plans for the immediate future, in short, all matters on which a debtor is bound to inform his creditor. The board of directors of the Gold Discount Bank conducted these negotiations, in which the representatives of the Economic Department, who submitted the balance sheets, naturally discussed their production program, which was remarkable insofar as the wage figures affecting the balance were comparatively low. And so the natural question arose: Why is your wage account so low? The director of the Gold Discount Bank reported on this subject to the board meeting of the Gold Discount Bank.
DR. SAUTER: You always refer to the Gold Discount Bank. The Tribunal would be interested to know whether the Gold Discount Bank is identical with the Reichsbank, whether it was also under the jurisdiction of the Defendant Funk and your own, and what was its position?
PUHL: The Gold Discount Bank was an institute subsidiary to the Reichsbank; it was founded in the twenties for various purposes, not only for the promotion of exports, but also for the increase of production. The capital structure. . .
DR. SAUTER: No, we are not interested in that.
PUHL: Practically all the shares were in the hands of the Reichsbank. The Gold Discount Bank had a Board of Directors always headed by the President of the Reichsbank; it also had a deputy chairman who was the Second Vice President of the Reichsbank, and the Board of Directors itself included a number of members of the Directorate of the Reichsbank, and also the State Secretaries of the Ministry of Economics and of the Ministry of Finance.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not interesting to us to know who the exact directors of the Gold Discount Bank were.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I wanted, in fact, to interrupt you earlier, and tell you that what you have just related is without significance for the Trial. To me and to the Tribunal it is only of interest to hear whether the Defendant Funk, as far as you definitely remember, had knowledge of these matters, of the purpose of this credit and whether he knew that in these factories people from the concentration camps were employed? Do you, or do you not know?
PUHL: I might assume that, but I cannot know it. At any rate, it was known that the credit was destined for these factories.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I cannot be satisfied with that answer because the SS, as you have probably heard in the meantime, directed various undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed. To my knowledge, for example, the porcelain factory at Allach did not apparently employ concentration camp inmates. Then for example, the entire personnel at the spas'...
MR. DODD: I object to testimony by counsel He is practically giving the answer to this witness before he asks the question.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know whether the SS had undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed?
PUHL: I did not, of course, know every individual business run by the SS, nor could I know in each case whether prisoners were or were not employed.
DR. SAUTER: Was the Defendant Funk present at all during the meeting at which this credit was discussed?
PUHL: No, he was not present, the records of the proceedings were submitted; we always adopted that procedure.
DR. SAUTER: Then did the Defendant Funk tank at all with the people who had given information on the unusual figures of the wage account?
PUHL: No, that was done by the Board of Directors of the Gold Discount Bank.
DR. SAUTER: That was done by the board of the Gold Discount Bank, not by the Defendant Funk? Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness. MR. DODD: I have just a few questions to ask, Your Honor. [Turning to the witness.] Whom have you talked to besides representatives of the Prosecution since you have arrived here in Nuremberg? Did you look at any paper?
PUHL: I do not know all their names, I believe a Mr. Kempner, Mr. Margolis...
MR. DODD: I am not asking you about the gentlemen of the Prosecution. I am asking you whom else you have talked to, if anybody, since you arrived here in Nuremberg. That doesn't require very much thought. Have you talked to anybody else since you arrived here or not?
PUHL: Only to the other prisoners in the corridor of our prison.
MR. DODD: To no one else?
PUHL: No one else.
MR. DODD: Now' are you absolutely sure about that?
PUHL: Yes, absolutely.
MR. DODD: Did you talk to Dr. Stuckart over in the witness wing, and about your testimony that you were going to give here this morning? Answer that question.
PUHL: Dr. Stuckart is one of the prisoners in the corridor of our witness wing.
MR. DODD: I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you didn't talk to him a day or two ago about your testimony in this case?
PUHL: No. - MR. DODD: Now, I think it is awfully important to you that I remind you that you are under oath here. I am going to ask you again if you didn't talk to Dr: Stuckart over in this witness wing about your testimony or about the facts concerning Funk in this case?
PUHL: No, I talked about all sorts of general matters.
MR. DODD: You didn't talk to four or five of those other people over there either about your testimony or about the facts here?
PUHL: No, absolutely not.
MR. DODD: All right. You know a man by the name of Thoms, T-h-o-m-s?
PUHL: T-h-o-m-s? He was an official of the Reichsbank who worked in the vaults of the Reichsbank in Berlin.
MR. DODD: You know the man, you do know him?
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now, you talked to him about these deposits put in by the SS, didn't you, Herr Puhl?
PUHL: To Herr moms, no.
MR. DODD: You didn't talk to him?
PUHL: No, I have not seen Herr Thoms at all in Nuremberg, and only from a distance in Frankfurt.
MR. DODD: I am not referring to Nuremberg now. We will get away from that for a minute. I mean during the time that these deposits were being made in the Reichsbank. Did you not talk to Herr Thoms about the deposits?
PUHL: Yes, as has been stated here in the affidavit.
MR. DODD: Well, never mind the affidavit for a few minutes. I have a few questions I want to ask you. I am particularly interested in this matter of secrecy. What did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy to respect to these SS deposits? Did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits?
PUHL: I must add that I really talked with Herr Tonetti, because he was the person responsible; and Herr Thoms was only called in. I told both gentlemen that it was desired the matter be kept secret.
MR. DODD: Did you say that it had to be kept a secret and that they must not discuss it with anybody else; that it was highly secret, a special transaction, and if anybody asked him about it, he was to say that he was forbidden to speak about it? Did you tell that to Herr Thoms in the Reichsbank?
PUHL: Yes, that was the sense of what I said.
MR. DODD: Well, that is what I am asking you. Why did you tell Thoms that he was not to speak about it; that it was absolutely forbidden; that it was highly secret, if it was just the ordinary confidence reposed in bank officials attached to a business relationship?
PUHL: Because the Reichsbank President Funk personally conveyed this wish to me.
MR. DODD: Well, now, I think perhaps there is some confusion in our minds. You see, I clearly understood, and I expect others as well as the Tribunal may have in the courtroom this morning, that you were telling counsel for Funk that the secrecy attached to these transactions was not extraordinary but just the ordinary secrecy or confidence that banking people attach to their relationship with customers. Now, of course, that wasn't so, was it?
PUHL: The position, as I explained it earlier, is this: These confiscated valuables were usually rejected by us when brought to the bank; and if an exception was now being made, then it was a matter of course that a greater amount of secrecy, a special obligation to maintain secrecy, should be observed.
MR. DODD: I wish you would answer this question very directly. Wasn't there a special reason for special secrecy with respect to these deposits by the SS? You can answer that Yes or No.
PUHL: No, I did not perceive a special reason.
MR. DODD: Then why were you telling Thorns that it was highly secret and he was to tell anybody who asked him about it that he was forbidden to speak about it? You didn't ordinarily instruct your people to that effect, did you?
PUHL: Because I myself had received this instruction.
MR. DODD: That may be so, but that was a special secrecy, wasn't it? That wasn't your ordinary and customary way of doing business?