dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: But if the affidavit has not been produced to the Court, what have we got to do with it? We have not seen it, at least in my recollection. You know about it, Sir David?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not been able to trace this affidavit of Dr. Mildner's. I do not remember it, but I will willingly check the reference that Dr. Kauffmann has given.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, if the Prosecution have used the affidavit, then you would have no objection to the witness being called for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, in general, no. The reason why I am rather surprised is that usually that point has been taken when it is sought to use the affidavit. The Defense Counsel involved has asked for the production of the witness -- but I will have it looked into, this particular point; but in general the Tribunal may take it that unless we put forward a special point, where an affidavit has been given, and where we have not argued to the Court previously, it is a very good case for the witness's being brought here, if it is convenient.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not understand that Dr. Kauffmann was saying that the affidavit had actually been put in by the 4 Marth46 Prosecution, but there was some reference made to it. Is that right, Dr. Kauffmann?
DR. KAUFFMANN: It would not take me long to look it up. I have the files for 3 January here.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we will give you an opportunity for looking that up. We will adjourn now for 10 minutes. [A recess was taken.]
DR. KAUFFMANN: The name of Mildner appears in the transcript of 2 January, not in the form of an affidavit but in the form of a letter written by a third person and this letter is only mentioned in connection with Mildner's name; it is not an affidavit. I should like to request that Mildner be interrogated in writing. Now turning to witness Number 15 . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Fourteen?
DR. KAUFFMANN: We have already dealt with Number 14.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you have already dealt with that? Very well, then 15.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness Number 15 is Rainer, who was a Gauleiter. I should like to request that this witness be heard as well. He is in Nuremberg. The subject of the evidence seems important to me. In the case against Kaltenbrunner, he is not expressly charged with the contrary; but if we are dealing with peace and violations of peace, an effort on the part of the defendant to prove that he has done everything in his power to prevent further bloodshed seems to me relevant.
THE PRESIDENT: Would an interrogatory satisfy you for that witness?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have not yet submitted any documents, Mr. President. Later on, I may present some affidavits, but, as I have not yet received them, I cannot present them at the moment.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal understands, Dr. Kauffmann, that you wish to reserve for yourself the right to apply to put in documents at a later stage.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, I request that.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider that and let you know when they make the order. Yes, Dr. Thoma?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Thoma suggests that we deal with the document list.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: On the first six documents, which are quotations from various books on philosophy, the Prosecution submit that they are irrelevant to the question of the ideology propounded by the Defendant Rosenberg, which the Prosecution make part of the case against him. Of course, if the purpose is merely that Dr. Thoma would quote from such books in making his speech, and if he would let us know the passages he wants to quote so they can be dealt with mechanically, we do not make any anticipatory objection. I think that takes us up to Number 6 -- which are purely general books on philosophy. The Prosecution view with some dismay all these books being put in evidence and the Prosecutors' having to read them. I think I have made the position quite clear that if Dr. Thoma wishes to use them to illustrate the argument, and if he lets us know the passage, we make no general objection, but we object to their being put in as evidence, as not being relevant to the matters before the Court.
DR. THOMA: I do not think that it is possible without a consideration of world philosophy before Rosenberg's time to understand the morbid psychological state of the German people after their defeat in the first World War. Unless this psychological condition is appreciated, it is impossible to understand why Rosenberg believed that his ideas could help them. I am extremely anxious to show that Rosenberg's theories were representative of a phase of contemporary philosophy taught in similar form by many other philosophers both at home and abroad. I am extremely anxious to refute the charges made against Rosenberg's ideology as degenerate and -- I must quote the expression -- a "smutty ideology." I have to bear in mind that the members of the Prosecution, especially M. De Menthon, who has made a special study of the National Socialist ideology, made the very natural mistake of confusing the extravagances and abuses of this ideology, usually dubbed "Nazism," with its real philosophic content. The French Revolution of 1789 was in the same way, I believe, represented by neighboring peoples as a disaster of the first magnitude, and all the rulers in Europe were called upon to fight against it. I believe that the Court was specially impressed by M. De Menthon's statements, which represented the Nazi ideology as having no spiritual value and described it as a dangerous doctrine. I think we must allow the possibility of its being taught in other countries as well at that time. I should like, therefore, to ask permission to present the philosophical systems of the time in question, by which I mean the views expressed by other philosophers on Rosenberg's main concepts, especially the question of blood or race, the soil as a fact of nature and as political and economic living space. Science declares that these ideas are based on the irrational presentation of natural and historical facts. They cannot be dismissed for that reason as unscientific, although they may be disturbing to rationalism and humanism.
DR. THOMA: I should like, in particular, to prove that these ideas have been respected and developed by rational and empirical science on account of their significance, and that they have been put into practice by other countries in their policy -- a fact which I think is important. I need only remind you of the U.S.A. immigration laws, which also give preference to particular races.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: As I understand Dr. Thoma, he wants to use the teachings of other philosophers as illustrations and arguments. If he is going to quote from them, then all that the Prosecution ask is that he tell us which passages he is going to quote, but we suggest that it is not relevant for us to go into an examination of, say, M. Bergson's book as a matter of evidence. It is a perfectly clear distinction, and I suggest that Dr. Thoma will be well able to develop the point which he has just put with the limitation which I have just suggested.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal would like to know what it is that you actually propose. Are you proposing to put in evidence certain passages from certain books and that the Tribunal should read them or are you simply asking for the production of books so that you may consult them, read them, and then incorporate in your argument certain ideas which you may gather from the books?
DR. THOMA: I ask the Tribunal to note -- officially, at least -- the contents of the books which I shall submit. I shall not read all these quotations from the books, but I shall ask the Tribunal to note the outlines. I think it is important for the Tribunal to have the passages quoted from these books actually before them, so that they may have a clear picture of the philosophical -- and particularly of the ethical situation -- of the German people after their defeat in the World War.
THE PRESIDENT: But the books are not books of any legal authority. You can only cite, surely, to a court of international law, books that are authorities on international law. You can, of course, collect ideas from other books which you can incorporate in your argument. You cannot cite them as authorities.
DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, by submitting quotations from the works of well-known philosophers who presented ideas similar to Rosenberg's, I propose to prove that this ideology is to be taken quite seriously. In the second place I want to prove that those features of Rosenberg's ideology which have been branded as immoral and harmful are extravagances and abuses of this ideology; and in my opinion it is most important for the Tribunal to know from a consideration of the history of philosophy, that even the best ideas -- such as the French Revolution -- can degenerate. I should like to point out these historical parallels to National Socialism and to Rosenberg's ideology. I also need these books to prove that Rosenberg was concerned only with the spiritual combating of alien ideology and that he was not in a position to protest any more energetically against the brutal application of his ideology in National Socialism, but that as a matter of principle he allowed scientific discussions of his works to proceed freely and never called in the Gestapo against his theological opponents. He assumed that his ethnic ideas were not to be carried through by force, but that every people should preserve its own racial character and that intermingling was only permissible in the case of kindred races. He believed that this ideology was for the good of the German people and in the interest of humanity generally. For these reasons I believe that the Tribunal, in order to have a vivid picture of the background of the development of National Socialism, should inform itself of the spiritual conditions of that time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the argument you have addressed to it.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: With regard to Document Number 7, that is, excerpts from certain books, the first five are from Rosenberg's own works, and the last is a book by another author on Hitler. Again I submit that if Dr. Thoma wants to support the thesis contained in the first half of his note -- that "the Defendant Rosenberg does not see individual and race, individual and community, at contrast but represents the new romantical conception that the personality finds its perfection and its inner freedom by having the community of the racial spirit developed and represented within itself" -- if Dr. Thoma will give any of the extracts from Rosenberg's works on which he bases that argument, then he can present them at whatever part of his case is convenient; and similarly, with regard to the specific points set out in the second part of his note -- there again, if he will give the relevant extracts, they can be considered and their relevancy for the purpose of this Court dealt with when he introduces them in his presentation. But again I take general objection to the fact that either the Court or the Prosecution should read all these works and treat them as evidence. I developed that about the previous document.
DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, if I quote Rosenberg's actual words and ask the Tribunal to take official notice of them, I shall be in the fortunate position of being able to show that Rosenberg's philosophy and ideology differ basically from the extravagances and abuses which were attributed to him and to which he took exception. I am in a position to show that it is clear from his works that Rosenberg intended the Leadership Principle to be restricted by a special council exercising an authoritative, advisory function. I shall also be able to show that the Myth of the Twentieth Century was a purely personal work of Rosenberg's which Hitler did not by any means accept without reserve. More especially, I am in a position to prove that Rosenberg, as his works will show, would have nothing to do with the physical destruction of the Jews and that, as far as his writings show, he took no part in the psychological preparations for war and that, as far as his writings show, he worked for a peaceful international settlement, especially between the four great European powers of the period. Therefore I beg the Tribunal to allow me to submit the real, genuine quotations from his writings as evidence material.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal will consider the whole question of the production of and the citation from these books.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Number 8, My Lord, falls into a rather different field. The first 11 documents seem to be books and writings containing Jewish views of an antinational basis. The Prosecution reminds the Tribunal that the questions at issue are: Did the defendants as co-conspirators embark on a policy of persecution of the Jews; secondly, did the defendants participate in the later manifestations of that policy, the deliberate extermination of the Jews? Within the submission of the Prosecution, it is remote and irrelevant to these important and terrible accusations that certain Jewish writings, spread over a period of years, contained matters which were not very palatable to Christians.
DR. THOMA: Gentlemen, I should like to reply to this point as follows: I am not interested in showing that the Nazi measures against the Jews were justified. I am interested only in making clear the psychological reasons for anti-Semitism in Germany; and I think I am justified in asking you to listen to some quotations of this kind taken from newspapers, since they must by their very nature offend the patriotic and Christian susceptibilities of very many people. I must go rather more deeply into this question, too, in order to show the reason for the existence of the so-called Jewish problem in history and religion and the reason for the tragic opposition between Jewry and other races. I should like to quote both Jewish and theological literature on the point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the question.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I think the Tribunal can take the remaining documents, 9 to 14, together. They seem to deal with specific and, if I may say so without the least intention of offense, more practical matters, in that they deal with the government of the Eastern territories, for which this defendant was responsible; and the Prosecution has no objection to my friend's using these documents in such a way as it seems fit to him.
DR. THOMA: I should like to mention the following points in connection with the documents: I have had four additional documents allowed in part by the Tribunal. I have not been able to submit them, because they have not yet been handed over to me; but I would like to tell the Tribunal what they are: First, a letter written by Rosenberg to Hitler in 1924, containing a request by Rosenberg not to be accepted as a candidate for the Reichstag; second, a letter written by Rosenberg to Hitler in 1931 regarding his dismissal from the post of editor in chief of the Volkischer Beobachter , the reason being that Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century created a tremendous stir among the German people. Rosenberg asked at the time that his work be considered a purely personal work, something which it actually was, and that if his writing was in any way detrimental to the Party, he would ask to be released from his position as editor of the Volkischer Beobachter ; third, I should like to include a directive from Hitler to Minister for the Eastern Occupied Territories Rosenberg, dated June 1943, in which Hitler instructs Rosenberg to limit himself to matters of principle; fourth, an eight-page letter from Hitler to Rosenberg written by hand and dating from the year 1925.
THE PRESIDENT: And the fourth one? Will you state the fourth one, the fourth document?
DR. THOMA: I am coming to that. Point 4 -- a letter written by Hitler to Rosenberg in 1925, in which Hitler stated his reasons for refusing on principle to take part in the Reichstag elections. Rosenberg's view at that time was that the Party should enter the Reichstag and co-operate practically with the other parties. I have just learned that this letter is dated 1923. Gentlemen, this is something of decisive importance. From the very beginning, Rosenberg wanted the NSDAP to co-operate with the other parties. That could constitute the exact opposite of a conspiracy from the start. May I present to the Court a copy of my four applications?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, these seem to be individual documents whose relevancy can be finally dealt with when Dr. Thoma shows their purpose in his exposition. I do not stress that the Tribunal need not make any final decision on them at the present time.
DR. THOMA: I should like to refer to the fact that I have already asked the General Secretary to admit these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, have you the documents in your possession?
DR. THOMA: Yes, My Lord. The only documents that are lacking are the four I have just mentioned. They are still in the hands of the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: They are in the hands of the Prosecution, are they?
DR. THOMA: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not appreciated that. If Dr. Thoma wants the documents we will do our best to find them. The first time I heard of them, of course, was when Dr. Thoma started speaking a few minutes ago. If the Prosecution have them or can find them, they will let Dr. Thoma have them or have copies of them.
THE PRESIDENT: May I ask you, Dr. Thoma, why it is that you have not put in a written application for these four?
DR. THOMA: I have made such a request, My Lord, several days or a week ago. I made the first request already in November.
THE PRESIDENT: For these four documents?
DR. THOMA: It is like this: The first two documents were granted me already in November or December 1945, but I have not as yet received them.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will consider that. Well, that finishes your documents, does it not?
DR. THOMA: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, with regard to the witnesses, it might be convenient if I indicated the view of the Prosecution on the, say, first six. The Prosecution has no objection to the first witness, Riecke, the State Secretary of the Ministry Agriculture, or to Dr. Lammers, who is being summoned for a number of the defendants, or to Ministerialrat Beil, who was the deputy chief of the Main Department of Labor and Social Policy in the East Ministry. With regard to the next one, Number 4, Dr. Stellbrecht, the Prosecution suggests that that is a very general matter which does not seem very relevant, and they say that Dr. Stellbrecht should be cut out, or at the most that that point be dealt with by a short interrogatory. We also object to 5 and 6, General Dankers and Professor Astrowski. General Dankers is sought to say that certain theaters and museums of art in Latvia remained untouched, and that hundreds of thousands of Latvians begged to be able to come into the Reich. There are papers about certain laws. The Prosecution submits that that evidence does not really touch the matters that are alleged against the Defendant Rosenberg and again they make objection. Professor Astrowski, who is alleged to be the Chief of the White Ruthenian Central Council and whose whereabouts are still unknown, who was last in Berlin, is to be called to prove that the Commissioner General in Minsk exerted all efforts in order to save White Ruthenian cultural goods. There again the Prosecution says that that is a very general and indefinite allegation and, if the defendant and certain of his officials are called to give evidence as to his policy and administration, it is suggested that the witnesses 5 and 6 are really unnecessary. I might also deal with Number 7, because the first seven witnesses are the subject of a note by Dr. Thoma. Number 7 is Dr. Haiding, who is the Chief of the Institute for German Ethnology, and it is sought to call him in order to prove that in the Baltic countries cultural institutions were advanced and new ones founded by Rosenberg.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That witness, the Prosecution submits, falls into the same category as Dankers and Astrowski. But, with regard to him, if there is any general point, they say that he could be dealt with by interrogatories but certainly should not be called. It is relevant for the Tribunal to read the note under Number dealing with these witnesses. Dr. Thoma says: "The witnesses can present evidence for the refutation of the Soviet accusation that Rosenberg participated in the planning of a world ideology for the extermination of the Slavs and for the persecution of all dissenters." The Prosecution submits that the three witnesses that they have suggested, coupled with the interrogatories, if necessary, in the case of Stellbrecht and Haiding, should cover these points amply.
DR. THOMA: I agree with Sir David that as far as Dr. Haiding and Dr. Stellbrecht are concerned an interrogatory will be sufficient. Regarding witnesses Numbers 5 and 6, I was interested in bringing in as witnesses people who actually lived in these countries and who have their personal impressions of Rosenberg's cultural activities; and I request that these witnesses be granted.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Court will consider that.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The witness Scheidt comes into the story of the Defendant Rosenberg's connection with Quisling, and this has been dealt with by interrogatories by the Defense and by certain cross-interrogatories by the Prosecution. This is obviously an important part of the case, and I suggest that the Tribunal does not decide as to the personal summoning of Scheidt until the answers to the interrogatories are before the Tribunal. Number 10 is Robert Scholz, the department chief in the Special Staff of creative art, and roughly the evidence is to show that the defendant did not take the works of art for his personal benefit. The Tribunal ordered the alerting of this witness on the 14th of January, but on the 24th of January the application for this witness was withdrawn and it is now renewed by Dr. Thoma. If the Tribunal will look at the way in which it is put in Dr. Thoma's application, which is limited and guided by certain specific acts on which Mr. Scholz can speak -- the Prosecution suggest that the Tribunal might think the most convenient way was again to get a set of interrogatories on Mr. Scholz, and see how he can deal with the many individual points put to him.
DR. THOMA: Gentlemen of the Tribunal, the case of the witness Wilhelm Scheidt touches the question of Norway. Scheidt is the decisive witness as to the reports made by Quisling of his own volition without being invited to do so, either through the Amt Rosenberg for foreign policy or through the Reich Ministry for Foreign Affairs. I believe that a personal hearing, a cross-examination, of this witness Scheidt is extremely important, because he can give a great deal of detailed information which is decisive for the question of whether or not Hitler conducted a war of aggression against Norway. I have been granted an interrogatory for the witness, Departmental Director Scheidt, and I have already taken steps to confer with the Prosecution in this connection. The witness Wilhelm Scheidt has not made an affidavit; but I must point out to the Tribunal that I should have to be present when the affidavit is made and that I should be allowed to question the witness myself, in common with the Prosecution. I should like to repeat my request to cross-examine this Wilhelm Scheidt as a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, if the witness was granted to you as a witness to give evidence in court, it would not be necessary for you to have any representative of the Prosecution when you saw the witness wherever he might be. The advance of a witness would entitle you to see him yourself and to obtain proof of his evidence. Is that clear?
DR. THOMA: So far I have been granted only an affidavit. I have not been granted him as a witness as yet.