dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. There is a mistake on your part, Dr. Kauffmann. I have not contested my signature, but have stated that I must assume that I received knowledge of this order only after it had been published and that the original order presumably did not carry my signature. That is what I said. But I do remember now, through the clause, "certified Employee," that it was apparently an order of which the original was signed by me at the time. Furthermore I remember from the first few words of the decree, "The Reichsfuehrer SS has approved..." et cetera, that this order was based on a personal report which I must have made to Himmler, and that with this report-I call your attention to the date, 26 July 1943-I apparently made the first attempt with Himmler to mitigate or alleviate the conditions; namely, that in such cases for which people hitherto were committed to concentration camps they should in minor cases no longer be put in concentration camps but in labor education camps and that there was to be a differentiation between concentration camps and . labor education camps. Therefore, in my opinion it was the result of my first attempt with him against the system of concentration camps. And third, I would like to point out that this decree carries the number IIc and thereby is not a decree which came from the Police executive offices such as State Police or Kripo but from the administrative level.
DR. KAUFFMANN: That is a sufficient explanation. The Prosecution hold you responsible for the commitment of politically and racially undesirable persons into concentration camps., How many concentration camps became known to you after your appointment as Chief of the RSHA?
KALTENBRUNNER: At the time of my appointment I knew three concentration camps. At the end of my official activity there were 12 in the entire Reich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: How many were there in all?
KALTENBRUNNER: There was a thirteenth. That was the SS prison camp near Danzig. There were altogether thirteen concentration camps in the Reich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: How can you explain the chart which you saw here with the many red dots which were alleged to be concentration camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: That presentation is definitely misleading. I saw this chart hanging here. All the armaments centers, factories, et cetera, in which internees from concentration camps were used for labor must have been characterized as concentration camps. I cannot explain in any other way the deluge of red dots.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you differentiate between the smaller camps and the regular concentration camps, and if so, why?
KALTENBRUNNER: The difference is very obvious for the following reasons: Any worker who worked in armament industries -that is; each internee-worked in the same enterprise, in the same factory, as every other German or foreign worker. The difference was merely that the German worker at the conclusion of his working hours, at the end of the day, returned to his family, whereas the internee of the labor camp had to return to the camp.
DR. KAUFFMANN: You are accused of establishing the Concentration Camp Mauthausen, that you visited this camp repeatedly. The witness Hollriegel, who testified here, said he had seen you in this camp. He also claims to have seen you inspecting the gas chambers while they were in operation. There is an affidavit of Zutter, who has already been mentioned today and who claims to have seen you at the Concentration Camp Mauthausen. From this the Prosecution conclude that you, too, must have known exactly about these conditions which were beneath human dignity. I am asking you now, is this evidence correct or wrong? When did you inspect these camps, and what observations did you make?
KALTENBRUNNER: The testimony is wrong. I did not establish any concentration camps in Austria where I was until 1943. I did not establish a single concentration camp in the Reich from 1943 onwards. Every concentration camp in the Reich as I know today, and as has been proved here with certainty, was established on orders of Himmler to Pohl. This applies also-and I wish to emphasize this-to the Mauthausen Camp. Not only were Austrian authorities excluded from establishing the Mauthausen Camp, but they were unpleasantly surprised because neither was the conception of a concentration camp in that sense known in Austria, nor was there a necessity for establishing concentration camps anywhere in Austria.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And now, in Germany, in the Reich proper?
KALTENBRUNNER: What do you mean by that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am asking regarding your knowledge of conditions there.
KALTENBRUNNER: I heard gradually more and more about conditions in concentration camps. It is apparent that I must have heard of these things already by way of the entire Reich intelligence service and its news channels for home politics.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you not, as testified by Hollriegel, see the gas chambers in operation?
KALTENBRUNNER: Never; neither while they were operating nor at any other time did I see a gas chamber.
THE PRESIDENT: You are going too fast. Make pauses between your questions and answers and don't speak too fast. He said that he had gradually by way of Intelligence, heard of the concentration camps in the Reich. Is that right?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. [Turning to the defendant.] You heard gradually about conditions in the concentration camps, that is what you said, is it not?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you recall my last question?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Whether you saw the gas chambers in operation?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I already answered that I never saw a gas chamber, either in operation or at any other time. I did not know that they existed at Mauthausen and testimony to that effect is entirely wrong. I never set foot in the detention camp at Mauthausen-that is, the concentration camp proper. I was at Mauthausen, but in the labor camp, not in the detention camp. The total complex of Mauthausen, as I remember it today, extends over an area of ~ kilometers. Within this area there is a space of perhaps 41/2 or 5 kilometers of labor camps. There are the largest granite quarries in Austria, and they were owned by the city of Vienna.
DR. KAUFFMANN: A picture has been shown in which you appear together with Himmler and Ziereis.
KALTENBRUNNER: I was just coming to that. The quarries belonged to the city of Vienna. The city of Vienna had a vital interest not to be excluded from the deliveries of granite which they used for paving the streets of Vienna. Now, according to a Reich law, as I learned later, this large quarry was expropriated from the city of Vienna by the WVHA-Pohl-and the city of Vienna was excluded from the supply of granite for quite some time. Now, the city turned to me to approach Himmler on this. It happened that Himmler was visiting and inspecting southern Germany and decided to visit Austria and Mauthausen and asked me to see him there. In that way, it came about that I was with Himmler at this quarry. Whether or not I was photographed at that time, I do not know. I have not seen the picture and I cannot say whether I am in it. I might add something. Neither at this time nor at any other time did Himmler ever take me into a concentration camp or suggest that he do so; as I learned later, he had certain reasons for not doing so. I would not have attended such an inspection for I knew very well that as far as I was concerned, he would, as he did with others whom he had invited on such visits, show me "Potemkin villages" and not conditions as they actually were; and, except for a handful of men in the WVHA, no one else was allowed to see how things really were in concentration camps.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, may I ask you-you are speaking about a handful of men-you did not belong to this group?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, I did not. This handful of men were Himmler, Pohl, Muller, and Glucks, and the camp commanders.
DR. KAUFFMANN: As far as Camp Mauthausen is concerned, there is a document on which we would like to have your views. The Document Number 1650-PS, which has already been submitted, dated 4 March 1944, is the so-called Bullet Decree. It deals with Camp III: "Measures against recaptured prisoners of war, officers and non-working, noncommissioned officers, with the exception of British and American prisoners of war." This document is known to the Tribunal in its contents. I do not believe that I need read it. The Defendant Kaltenbrunner is to make a statement, whether these facts became known to him.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not hear the reference to it, the number.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Document 1650-PS, Exhibit Number USA-246.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps that would be a good time to break off for 10 minutes. [A recess was taken.]
THE MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, a report is made that the Defendant Goering is absent from this session of the Court.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Have you the Document 1650-PS, and have you read it?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I have read it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: This, as emphasized, is the famous Bullet Decree. When did you hear of this?
KALTENBRUNNER: I did not know the actual decree; this must have been a decree issued long before I came into office. Neither had I seen this teletype copy of the document given to me here.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am drawing your attention to the signature which reads "Muller"
KALTENBRUNNER: Actually, the man was entitled to sign such a decree if it did in fact exist. But I have heard-this I would like to add-at the time of 19441945 from the liaison officer between Himmler and Hitler by the name of Fegelein when I made my report to headquarters, which at that time, I believe, was already in Berlin, I heard the name Bullet Decree, which to me was an absolutely strange conception. So I asked him what it was. He replied that this was a Fuehrer order and that he knew no more than that, except that he had heard that this was a special type of prisoner of war. I was not satisfied with that reply, and so, on the same day, I sent a teletype message to Himmler in which I asked him to look into an order of the Fuehrer which was called Bullet Decree. At that time I did not know either that the State Police was concerned with the Bullet Decree. Then a few days later, Muller came to see me on Himmler's behalf, and gave me a decree to read which, however, did not come from Hitler, but from Himmler, in which Himmler stated that he was transmitting this to me as a verbal order of the Fuehrer. Referring to this, I replied to Himmler that I noticed in this Fuehrer decree that again the most elementary principles of the Geneva Convention were violated, although this had been going on from a time long before I had assumed office and there had been other violations following that. I asked him to intervene with the Fuehrer, and I attached to this letter the draft of a letter from Himmler to Hitler, asking the Fuehrer (a) to cancel that decree, and (b) at any rate, to relieve the subordinate departments of the burden on their conscience.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was the result?
KALTENBRUNNER: The result was positive. Although the Bullet Decree and a number of other equally depressing orders were not repealed, it was positive insofar as in February 1945 Hitler permitted me for the first time to get in touch with the International Red Cross, an action which had been strictly prohibited before.
DR. KAUFFMANN: This action with reference to the Red Cross was initiated by you, and did this action refer to the inspection of concentration camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: In that connection I must answer "yes" and "no," for it coincided with the request made by the Red Cross and its president, Burckhardt, for immediate and direct contact. I would like to say the attempt of both sides coincided. But please do not misunderstand me. Apart from that there were, of course, numerous attempts-I would almost like to say, behind Hitler's back-to get in contact with the Red Cross, in which connection I call attention for instance to the continuous contact the Foreign Office had with them.
DR. KAUFFMANN: If I understand you correctly, you want to cite the request to Professor Burckhardt to visit the concentration camps, as an exonerating circumstance for yourself.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, of course, but I should like to talk about that later in greater detail, because it is premature at this stage.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The Prosecution have stated that during the time you were in office two concentration camps had been newly established, Lublin and Hertogenbosch. Did you hear anything about that? Who could have ordered the establishing of these two camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: I do not know the date when these two camps were set up. The one in Lublin and the other one in Hertogenbosch were subordinate through the channel of the WVHA to the Higher Police and SS Leader of the occupied countries in which they were situated, so that the main offices in Berlin had nothing to do with them.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, will you please answer this question with "yes" or "no": Had the concentration camp at Auschwitz been known to you as such?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, I did not know about it until November of 1943.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Were you, simultaneously with learning of the camp's existence, informed of the significance of this camp, namely, that it was exclusively an extermination camp for Jews handed over by Eichmann?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, it could not have been known to anybody as such, for the question put to Himmler, "Why was such a large camp being installed there?" was always answered by him, "Because of the proximity of the large armament works." And I think he mentioned then Vitkovice and others. At any rate-and I think this must be emphasized-there was such a complete secrecy regarding what went on in Auschwitz, that the statements of not only the defendants but of anyone else who might be asked by the Americans, "Do you know about it?" and answers in the negative must be believed.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The most atrocious excesses are connected with this camp in Auschwitz. This concentration camp was under the spiritual leadership of the infamous Eichmann. Now I am asking you: When did you get acquainted with Eichmann?
KALTENBRUNNER: I became acquainted with Eichmann in my home town, Linz. The Prosecution have stated-and today the attempt was made to establish from an affidavit-that I was a friend, or at least a close acquaintance, of Eichmann. I would like to make the following statement on this with particular reference to my oath. I have a different conception of a close acquaintance or even a friendship. I learned of Eichmann's existence in Linz because his father, as director of an electrical construction company at Linz, consulted my father as a lawyer, and thus they knew each other; and because, he, the son of his father, attended the same high school as my brothers. Therefore, the statement of Hottl that I had met Eichmann in an SS platoon at Linz is wrong, because when I joined the SS Eichmann had already fled to Germany, as I learned later. Secondly, the Prosecution state that I met the same Eichmann for the first time in 1932 and for the second time in February or March 1945. Therefore, I did not see him for 13 years and after that last meeting I never saw him again. On the basis of these two personal meetings, I can draw the conclusion that I was neither a friend of his nor that we were closely acquainted. It is true that on that second occasion he accosted me and said, "Obergruppenfuehrer Eichmann is my name; I come from Linz too." I said, "Pleased to meet you. How are things back home?" But there was no official contact.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Witness Lammers stated yesterday that in the RSHA a conference took place regarding the so-called "final solution." Did you know about it?
KALTENBRUNNER: No. I think that the witness Lammers, and another witness, too, stated that Eichmann, possibly under my name, had called a meeting at the RSHA in Berlin during February or March 1943, a so-called discussion with department chiefs. I have to say to that, that nominally I did commence my services in Berlin on 30 January, but in fact, until May I was not in Berlin except for a few official visits; but in Vienna, where I was enlarging my intelligence service in order to transfer it eventually to Berlin.
DR. KAUFFMANN: One further question to that. When did you hear, for the first time, that the camp at Auschwitz was an extermination camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: Himmler told me that in 1944, in February or March. That is, he did not tell me, he admitted it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was your attitude upon learning this?
KALTENBRUNNER: I did not hear the question.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What attitude did you adopt when you heard about it?
KALTENBRUNNER: I had no knowledge of Hitler's order to Heydrich regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem at the time I took up my office. In the summer of 1943 I gathered from the foreign press and through the enemy radio...
THE PRESIDENT: This is not an answer to your question. You asked him what he did when he found out that Auschwitz was a concentration camp. He is now making a long speech about Heydrich. You asked for his attitude. I suppose you meant what he did when he first heard that Auschwitz was an extermination camp, in February or March 1944. He is now telling us a long story about something having to do with Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Please try to give me a direct answer to that question. What was your attitude after you heard about that? Answer quite briefly and very concisely, please.
KALTENBRUNNER: Immediately after receiving knowledge of this fact, I fought, just as I had done previously, not only against the final solution, but also against this type of treatment of the Jewish problem. For that reason I wanted to explain how through my intelligence service I became acquainted with the whole Jewish problem, and what I did against it.
THE PRESIDENT: We still don't know what you did...
DR. KAUFFMANN: What did you do? I am asking you for the last time.
KALTENBRUNNER: In order to explain what I did I must explain how I reacted, just as I have to tell you what I heard about it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Just explain to us your reactions.
KALTENBRUNNER: First I protested to Hitler and the next day to Himmler. I did not only draw their attention to my personal attitude and my completely different conception which I had brought over from Austria and to my humanitarian qualms, but immediately, from the first day, I concluded practically every one of my situation reports right to the very end by saying that there was no hostile power that would negotiate with a Reich which had burdened itself with this guilt. Those were the reports I put to Himmler and Hitler, particularly pointing out also that the intelligence sector would have to create t he atmosphere for discussions with the enemy.
DR. KAUFFMANN: When did the Jewish persecution end?
KALTENBRUNNER: October 1944.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you want to say that this was due to your intervention?
KALTENBRUNNER: I am firmly convinced that this is chiefly due to my intervention, although a number of others also worked toward the same end. But I do not think that there was anyone who kept dinning it into Himmler's ears every time he met him or that there was anyone who would have spoken so openly and frankly and with such self-abnegation to Hitler as I did.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Was that instruction to Eichmann an instruction which came from Hitler and Himmler to the RSHA and then to Eichmann, or was it a strictly personal order outside the competence of the RSHA?
KALTENBRUNNER: Naturally I can only reconstruct the situation today, since I was not there when these orders were issued; but I have reason to assume that the channels for this order were: Hitler, Heydrich, Eichmann; and that Himmler, shortly after Heydrich's death, kept on working with Eichmann and probably very often even excluded Muller.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness Wisliceny, who was examined here-and this I am going to put to you-stated on 3 January that practically the final solution was carried out between April 1942 and October 1944. Wisliceny referred to a personal order from Himmler and stated further that Eichmann was personally charged with the task. But he goes on to say, "The extermination of Jews continued under Kaltenbrunner without any reduction or alleviation." Reports made by Eichmann to that effect were sent at regular intervals to Kaltenbrunner through Muller. It is stated that in 1944 Eichmann called personally on Kaltenbrunner, and Wisliceny affirms having seen Kaltenbrunner's signature on such reports to Himmler. That was Wisliceny's testimony. Now my question: Is this testimony true in its essential points?
KALTENBRUNNER: The testimony is wrong, but I can clarify it. Wisliceny may have seen my signature once, not on a report to Himmler which I had received from Eichmann and Muller, but on a letter which I wrote to Himmler, a copy of which I passed on to Muller and Eichmann for their information and in which I referred to my last report-verbal report-to Himmler regarding the Jewish question. It was on this occasion that, for the first time, I heard of Eichmann's activity in that respect, and, in order to make it clear to Eichmann that I did not want to be associated with that activity, I had Muller give this man a copy of the letter to Himmler. In that letter I asked Himmler to define his attitude so that, since the Fuehrer again had ordered me to report to him, I could give the Fuehrer a full report on Himmler's activities and therefore wanted an early decision.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness Hottl has stated in an affidavit that he had heard from Eichmann that a total number of 4 to 5 million Jewish persons had been exterminated, about 2 million of them in Auschwitz. Have you heard any such figures?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have never heard such figures. But I approached Himmler on that subject and asked him whether he had any idea of all these crimes so far. The reason I put that question to him was that he would realize the extent of the catastrophe which was bound to follow. He replied to me that he had no figures. I do not believe it. I believe he had them.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you want to assume a responsibility in this connection or do you want to deny it?
KALTENBRUNNER: I must deny it completely, because I hope to be able to prove through Burckhardt that there was nobody who exposed himself more on this question in favor of another solution.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am now referring to a document, which is Document R135, Exhibit USA-289. It is a letter from the Reich Commissioner for Riga and dated 18 June 1943. It refers to an action against the Jews at the Minsk prison. It is a letter from the commandant of the prison, addressed to the Commissioner General for Bielorussia at Minsk. Please, will you make a statement on that document?
KALTENBRUNNER: I can see from both the signature and the name of the addressee that this letter could not have come to my knowledge. Nor have I knowledge of its contents either. Presumably this is the result about which the person is reporting in June 1943, of events which occurred before I came into office, at any rate this must refer to events which took place previously and which needed a certain amount of time.