dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I would like the permission of the Tribunal to submit the original of a German docu-ment from the archives of the main office of the SD, which is a document captured by the Red Army in the Berlin SD office and refers to plans concerning the invasion of Czechoslovakia.  Kindly follow me, Witness, while I quote from the document in the Russian translation: "Communication; Berlin; June 1938; top secret. Subject: Em-ployment of SD in Czechoslovakia." The text follows: "The SD should prepare to start its activity in case of com-plications between the German Reich and Czechoslovakia...-. The manifold planning and the preparation of the operational staff for mobilization should be effected on the basis of approv-al..." (USSR-509)
THE PRESIDENT: Stop. You read out a date of June 1938. I can't see that at the head of the document.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: June 1938, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't appear in the copy -at the head of the document. Does it appear somewhere else?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Your translation probably does not have it, Mr. President. The original has it. We submitted copies of two different documents and I am afraid the mistake might have been caused by the fact that your translation is not the translation of the document which I am submitting right now. We submitted copies of two different documents-two different translations.
THE PRESIDENT: Either it is an entirely different document or else some parts are omitted. The date is not on the document. Go on. Go on.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: "The SD follows, wherever possible, directly behind the advancing troops and fulfills duties similar to those in the Reich, which are the security of political life and at the same time the security as far as possible of all enterprises necessary to the national economy and so, also, of the war economy. "In order to achieve this purpose, we suggest the division of the country into larger territorial units, Oberabschnitte and smaller territorial units, Unterabschnitte ... the latter to be subdivided into Aussenstellen so that the members of the SD" -I draw your attention to the words "members of the SD"- - "intended for employment in Czechoslovakia, can be imme-diately assigned to their tasks." This document shows, therefore, that the SD was not only well -informed of the plans, but had also actively taken part in the elab-oration of these plans of aggression. I am asking you, Witness, if this excerpt shows that the SD was not only aware of the plans of invasion and aggression but also that it took an active part in working out the plans?
HOEPPNER: May I first say something about the document?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like you to answer briefly, first. Answer "yes" or "no." Explain later, please.
HOEPPNER: From the document, it is obvious that it is only a draft ...
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: We will talk about that a little later. You will see, then, that this deals with something else. I refer to the excerpt which I read. Do you not see evidence there that the SD was both informed and took an active part in the, plans of aggression?
HOEPPNER: I said yesterday that the Domestic and Foreign Information Services are two different organizations. The domestic ...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, we do not care what you said yesterday. We want to get your answer today. You were asked a question which can be answered by "'yes" or "no." You can explain afterwards.
HOEPPNER: The document has nothing to do with the Domestic Information Service.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In that case, I would like you to look on Page 3 of the document. You testified yesterday that the SD had nothing to do with the staffing of the Einsatzkommandos. I am going to read an excerpt here. Perhaps you will find an answer there. It is Item II: "The staffing of the offices of the SD"-I draw your attention to the "offices of the SD"-"should be effected with the following considerations: 1., According to the point of view of the SD..." Does that not prove..
THE PRESIDENT: It is being read too fast. You know the trans-lators do not have time.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President; I shall speak more slowly. [Turning to the witness.] Does not the excerpt that was just read show that the Einsatzkommandos were staffed according to the demands of the SD? It is said here that the staffing is effected according to the point of view of the SD.
HOEPPNER: Excuse me. It was apparently translated incor-rectly. Your question does not make sense to me.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It seems to me the question is quite clear. It is said here: "The staffing of the offices of the SD should be effected with the following considerations..." Please look at the text of the document.
HOEPPNER: In my text there is absolutely nothing concerning
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: 202(a), Page 3?
HOEPPNER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: To which words are you referring now?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I am referring to Section II Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: You must go slowly. You simply say Page 3. It happens not to be on Page 3-on our Page 3. It is on Page 2. How do you expect us to find it when you refer to it that way? It is Paragraph II then, at the start.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It is Section II, Mr. President; there is Roman numeral II in front of the section. What answer will you give then, Witness? What answer will you give me with regard to manning the staffs? Were they not to be staffed according to the demands of the SD?
HOEPPNER: From the paragraph, it is evident only that it was requested that the SD should keep men in readiness, should be ready itself, but not that the SD asked to have men kept in readiness.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In that case, I should like to ask you to turn to Section III. Mr. President, please turn to Section III. It is Page 4 of the Russian text. I quote from III: "The groups detailed for Einsatz from the Reich"-pay atten-tion to the words 'Einsatz' and 'groups' which appear for the first time in this document-"will be collected in a subsector corresponding to their intended sphere of activity, as starting or distribution centers, where they will receive the material on hand." Then I omit the next paragraph and pass to the next page of the Russian text which follows right after the list of cities. It is Page 4 of the English text: "As soon as any district is free from the enemy, that is, when it is occupied, the allocated groups are immediately sent to the district center following the advancing troops. At the same time, the groups which are intended for the next district still in enemy hands will follow along in order to feel their way." Will you deny after this that it was precisely the SD which staffed the first Einsatz groups?
HOEPPNER: From this document it can be seen only that the SD main office at that time had prepared this group.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: If this does not convince you, then I would like you to turn ...
THE PRESIDENT: You must go more slowly. We will not hear what the witness says if you interrupt him during the time it takes for the translation to come through. It is impossible for us to understand it.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I beg your pardon, Mr. Pres-ident. I shall go more slowly. I stated that if this does not convince the witness, that it was precisely the SD that helped to staff these operational groups, then I would be obliged ...
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Then the witness said something about Einsatz groups. What did you say about Einsatz groups?
HOEPPNER: The question was whether I am now convinced that the Einsatz groups were being prepared beforehand, and I answered that...
THE PRESIDENT: No, you were not asked about Einsatz groups at all. You were asked about the SD.
HOEPPNER: I was asked whether the SD had prepared the Einsatz groups beforehand, and I said that from the document it is evident that the SD main office had prepared these groups.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please look at Paragraph V -Section V-entitled "Preparatory Measures," Page 5 of the English text.
HOEPPNER: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I want to quote Section V, "Preparatory Measures." "Preparatory Measures; demarcation of the spheres of activity of the SD and the Gestapo: (a) in the Reich; (b) in occupied territory. "Suggestion: Measures in Germany are carried out under the guidance of the Gestapo and with the assistance of the SD. Measures-in the occupied regions are carried ' out under the leadership of the senior officer of the SD. Gestapo officials are assigned to certain operations staffs. It is important that, as far as possible, similar preparations, training, and the use of materials should be conducted in the Gestapo as in the SD." Would you not say that this shows that it was precisely the SD that took the leading part in the Einsatzkommandos and that the Einsatz groups carried on their criminal activity under the guidance of SD officials?
HOEPPNER: I read nothing here about criminal activity. And as far as the SD is concerned I would like to refer to the first answer, that it had nothing to do with the Domestic Information Service.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It says SD there...
THE PRESIDENT: The man had not yet finished his answer. We do not know what his answer is. Now repeat your answer.
HOEPPNER: I said that I read nothing about criminal measures in the document, and I said previously that the document had nothing to do with Domestic Information Services.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It says there SD. Can you deny the term used by the document?
HOEPPNER: The word "SD" means many things.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: But it seems to me that in this connection the term is used in precisely the sense in which the authorities in- Germany had used the term. The German officials understood the terms they used, did they not?
HOEPPNER: Yes, but it is about the Foreign Information Service.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like you to look at the continuation of the same quotation, Number 2, entitled, "Establish-ment of Files in Section 111/225 of the Main Office." "(a) Collecting and utilization of all available materials of the SD Oberabschnitt is concentrated in Section 111/225. "(b) In establishing duplicate local files for each region, one copy remains with the central department while the second is sent to the operations staff appointed to the region..." I am stopping right there, and would like you to pay special attention to Item (c): "Files must have notations such as these: 'To arrest,' 'to liquidate,' 'to remove from office,' 'to place under observation,' 'to confiscate,' 'police surveillance,' 'deprivation of passport,' et cetera." Do you not think that when the filing department of the SD made a note like these on the cards of specific persons, such as to liquidate, to arrest, that the SD was participating in crimes against humanity?
HOEPPNER: I can only repeat that the document has nothing to do with the Domestic Information Service of the SD.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Did I understand you correctly yesterday to say that you deny that there was any liaison or relationship between the SD and the SS units?
HOEPPNER: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like you to look at the end of this plan, the last paragraph, Number VII: "It is necessary that an SS unit or Totenkopf unit be ready for disposal for special purposes." After seeing that, do you still deny that there was any direct relation between the SD and the SS units and the organization of the activity of the Einsatz groups?
HOEPPNER: From this paragraph, in any case, it is not evident.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In that case, how should we interpret the sentence which I just read?
HOEPPNER: From this paragraph one can only deduce that if such an Einsatz group was put to use, a special SS troop was to be present. If a unit of some other civilian agency marches into this territory and a military unit is put at its disposal, then from that one cannot conclude that --there was some sort of connection between this military unit and the civilian agency. But I should like to repeat once more that this document shows only that it is a draft project of an official-of an assistant official-of an assistant official who did not even-I stress that this is a draft of an assistant official which was not even countersigned by the expert, not to speak of the department head, the central department head, office head, or main office head.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In that case, it appears that you claim that the document just shown you is merely a draft?
HOEPPNER: It is only the draft of the assistant official of 111/225, which he initialled 29 June 1938, and the head of Depart-ment 111/22 did not sign it, nor did the Central Department chief of 111/2 do so, nor did the chief of Amt III sign it.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, to show that the witness' testimony is not correct, I would like you to turn to a document signed by Schellenberg, Chief of the Central Depart-ment I/I, and to the chart which you will, find in the original. It shows that even the chiefs of the Einsatz commands were appointed ...
HOEPPNER: May I say something?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Just a minute. Let me read...
THE PRESIDENT: Just wait a minute. Just wait a minute. Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like you to read on from the place you had got to in Paragraph V, so that the document may be translated, and translated now, at once. You had got just to the place where it speaks of files, and at the end of "files," Para-graph 2...
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. Do you want me to start reading from point (b) or from point (c)?
THE PRESIDENT: Point 3.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes. "In establishing duplicate local files for each region..."
THE PRESIDENT: That is not what I meant. You had read Paragraph V, Roman V, down to the end of 2, the last words of which are "deprived of passports, et cetera." The next paragraph is 3, small 3, Arabic 3-"It is imperative to speed up..."
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We want the whole of the document from there.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. "It is imperative to speed up the obtaining of necessary economic and political materials, such as maps, dictionaries, stationery, and office supplies.... "5. Allocated members and agents of SD have to undergo a training course in order to get acquainted with the language and with the general conditions of life in Czechoslovakia. However, it might be advisable to train only persons appointed for the subsections as heads of foreign branches and managers of enterprises in order not to allow the number of persons becoming acquainted with the preparations to be too great. "6. Release from military conscription of the appointed per-sons. "7. Elaboration of plans, (a) for carrying out the task men-tioned in Paragraph 111 5; (b) for notification in due time, of the persons mentioned in Paragraph 1115, 11 1 (d), and 112 (c) before invasion in order to give them the possibility of hiding to avoid arrest and deportation and to enable them to fulfill their missions. "8. Providing necessary passes in due time for entering zones of operation in order to ' secure a free passage and first-class living and working accommodations." Shall I read Paragraph VI, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: "VI. Miscellaneous. It is sug-gested that wherever possible only trained military people be employed as: "I. In the initial stages guerilla and partisan warfare will probably have to be reckoned with. "2. For that reason arms will be necessary: carbines, pistols, hand grenades, gas masks, and if possible light machine guns. "3. Relations in the zone of military operation demand appro-priate conduct. 11VII ... 11
THE PRESIDENT: You have read VII already. But you better go back now to III, Paragraph 5, which I think you have not read and which just has been referred to.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. "Training of special agents (beforehand) from persons of German extraction living in Czechoslovakia (mentioned in Item 11 1 (d) who are to take over the internal protection of the most important enterprises for the purpose of preventing sabotage on the part of Czech organizations and offices."
THE PRESIDENT: Now I think you better go back to 11, Para-graph 2 (a), "Training of suitable persons." The interpreting division had better have the original documents in German and read the passages which I will indicate to them.. I think you can go on, Colonel Smirnov, because this would be checked over in the translating division. The transcripts will be checked over against the original document. Now, you were reading II, Paragraph 2 (a), beginning with the words, "Training of suitable persons," were you not?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: "Besides"-interpreting ver-batim from the Russian text-"besides staff members of the SD we should also try to employ honorary workers, because German offices should not be deprived of proper personnel, and it may be necessary that other frontier regions should take similar measures to provide for the necessary personnel. "(b) Measures concerning Item II I (a) are necessary, for it may be found inexpedient to take people from the frontier regions for these new organizations, as an increase of work in these regions is expected anyhow."
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think you need read that. The Tribu-nal directs that the original documents as read into the transcripts, the shorthand notes, shall be checked over by the translating divi-sion against the original German text.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, we shall do it today.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal direct that the original German document shall be retranslated into the other languages, namely, into English, into French, into Russian.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Now will you turn to the document which follows the document you have been reading and which appears to be some sort of letter from an Oberfuehrer of the SS? It is addressed to Dr. Best.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Shall I read the whole document or just the first paragraph?
THE PRESIDENT: You better read the first paragraph, anyhow.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes. It is Page 9, Witness, "111/225; to SS Oberfuehrer, Dr. Best, Berlin."
HOEPPNER: Yes, I am reading it. I have it.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: The contents follow: "Introduction of the Einsatz of the Gestapo and of the SD, Reichsfuehrer SS in the territory of Czechoslovakia. "The suggestion to introduce the Gestapo and SD, of which 12 detachments - were provided for along the Czechoslovakian frontier, will be subject to some modification as a result of the new situation arising from the fact that the Czechs may cede the Sudeten territory. Since some of the detachments will not be employed in the districts which will be ceded, we offer the following changes." Shall I continue the quotation, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: You don't need to read the rest. But is that document dated?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: There is no date here, but there is a date on another document, which I consider very important and which I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit. The docu-ment which is addressed to Dr. Best has no date, but the next document has a date, and it is the following document that I consider extremely important. I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit it. It is a very short document, signed by Schellenberg: "Berlin, 13 September 1938, State Chancellery 1 113, to the Chief of Amt III, SS Oberfuehrer Jost or deputy. "Contents: Organizational Chart of the Einsatzkommandos." Omitting the next sentence, the text reads: "According to the regulations of the above-mentioned letter, I enclose herewith a photostatic copy of the Einsatzkom-mandos organizational chart. The chart in its present form has been prepared by Department C. "(Signed) The Chief of Central Department 11 a B, SS Haupt-sturmfuehrer Schellenberg." Mr. President, at this point I should like you to look at the chart which is attached, and which at that time already reproduced very correctly the organization of the Einsatzkommandos. You have all the details of the organization there, Einsatzstab K, Einsatzstab L, and showing 11 different units, and among them the leading collab-orators of Einsatzstab K. In the second column, you can find that already at that time the chief of the gas cars to be put into effect later was included: Rauff, the man to whom later all the reports about the activity of the gas chambers and the special death wagons were directed. They have been read here earlier.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not see that on the chart.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: It is in the second column. Rauff, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But can't you show me where it is?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. There it is. [Indicating.] [The document was handed to the President.]
THE PRESIDENT: But Colonel Smirnov, there must be some words on the document which indicate what you are saying.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I think, Mr. President, that what happened is to be explained by the inaccuracies of the trans-lation. You see, I just drew your attention to the name Rauff, the man who was mentioned there, to whom later the reports about gas cars were directed. And there he is. The post had been prepared and foreseen in that chart.
THE PRESIDENT: What is his name?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Rauff, Mr. President. As early as 1939 we see his name and the post which he was to occupy. This is why I want to draw your attention to that. May I continue the interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like to have photostatic copies of this document.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; we have 10 copies.
THE PRESIDENT: We anticipate that you are going to give the document to the witness and examine him upon it.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. The witness has it before him already.
HOEPPNER: Yes; I have a photostatic copy here.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I should like to ask the witness the following question. Witness, tell me this. Did not the confidential agents of the SD make and keep a list of persons who were to be annihilated or exhausted by hard labor?
HOEPPNER: Is the question being asked with reference to this document?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In connection both with the document and with your knowledge of the situation.
HOEPPNER: I do not know whether lists were compiled.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I am asking your permission to submit...
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has not answered. Will you answer the question?
HOEPPNER: I said that I did not know whether such lists were made.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I request your permission to submit the second German document, which does not concern the leading man of the SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, we wanted you to ask the witness some questions so as to explain the chart. We have only just seen the chart. Have you no questions to ask on the chart?
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, I will ask these questions. Do you have the chart before you, Witness?
HOEPPNER: I have the photostatic copy of the manuscript chart.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: No, I am talking about the photostatic copy of the document. They are going to hand you the original. [The document was submitted to the witness.] Do you recognize the names of the collaborators mentioned in the chart?
HOEPPNER: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Who was Jost?
HOEPPNER: Jost was the chief of Amt III, the Foreign Infor-mation Service in the then SD main office, and he had been the first chief of Amt VI of the Foreign Intelligence Service.
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Anyway, in 1938 he was a member of the SD?
HOEPPNER: Yes, he belonged to the SS special formation, SD, and was chief of the Central Department III of the SD main office.