dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. STAHMER: Since an essential accusation made by the Prosecution is that the defendants violated the Treaty of Versailles, the Defense naturally has to take a stand relative to the question as to whether and to what extent the breach of the treaty took place and whether and to what extent that treaty was still valid. To that extent, at least, the books and dissertations which deal with these questions are important. I believe that an understanding of this question in detail can be reached only after I have submitted the quotations, and that will take place at the beginning of the presentation of testimony. I have not been able to accomplish the work.
THE PRESIDENT: Aren't you confusing the question of validity with the question of justice?
DR. STAHMER: No, Sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
DR. STAHMER: I believe that in this sphere also the Defense is justified in demanding the presentation of the White Books , because the contents of these White Books will, to a great extent, be of importance in the question of the war of aggression; and to that extent also a reference to these books has significance. Here also, I believe, it will only be possible to make a decision after the individual quotations from these White Books have been read. Furthermore, the presentation of the reports concerning the breaches of the Hague Convention has been demanded. I believe that this motion cannot be rejected with the remark that it is not concerned with the question whether such breaches were committed on the other side too. This fact, in my opinion, is of importance in two ways. First of all, to reach a just decision one has to make sure whether the conduct on the other side was really correct and beyond reproach and it is furthermore of importance because it involves the question of whether the defendants were not resorting to retaliatory measures.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you have dealt with each topic with the exception of Numbers 20, 23, and 28. Number 20 is Mr. Winston Churchill's book; 23 is Tchitcherin's, and 28 is General Fuller's book. We will take those.
DR. STAHMER: Book Number 20, Churchill's Step by Step -- here we are concerned with statements in which Churchill at one point expresses his opinion as to whether England, by the Naval Treaty of 1935, had not sanctioned Germany's renunciation of the Versailles Treaty. Furthermore, this book is of importance as far as I can see it now, in evaluating the extent to which England rearmed, and finally at various points in that book there are references to Hitler's personality.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I say with the greatest respect to Dr. Stahmer that he has reinforced my point, that if Dr. Stahmer is putting forward the thesis that in order to reach a proper decision on the matters before the Tribunal it is necessary to investigate whether other belligerents have committed breaches of conventions, then, as I say, I join issue with him in toto. I cannot add to the matter. But with regard to Mr. Churchill, Dr. Stahmer makes three points; one, that some passages in the book give color to the idea that by the naval agreement the validity of the Versailles Treaty was affected. That is a point to which there are obviously many answers, including the facts that France was a party to the treaty and the United States was a party to a treaty in the same terms. But clearly Mr. Churchill's view expressed in a book, as to the legal effect of one treaty or another, is in my submission irrelevant. Equally irrelevant is the British rearmament and the personality of Mr. Churchill himself. And I respectfully submit, without going into detail, that Dr. Stahmer has, by his examples, confirmed the argument that these matters are irrelevant to the issues before the Court. I do not wish to say more.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal would like to know if you would go back from this question, or if you like, deal with anything you have to say about Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe's observations about Mr. Churchill's book. If you prefer to do that, do that now. But afterwards, and before you finish your argument upon these documents, the Tribunal would like to hear you somewhat further about Document 8 and following up to 22, in order that you should develop your argument as to how those documents can be relevant. For instance, Document 10 and Document 11, the speeches and notes of President Wilson. How can such documents as that have any bearing upon this Trial or indeed upon the validity of the Treaty of Versailles? But take it in your own order.
DR. STAHMER: These speeches form the foundation of the Versailles Treaty and they are significant therefore for the interpretation of the treaty. Consequently it is important to refer to the speeches, in order to judge the contents of the treaty and the question whether Germany rightfully or wrongly renounced the treaty, that is, whether thereby a breach of the treaty took place, or whether the treaty actually gave Germany the right to withdraw.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all you wish to say about that?
DR. STAHMER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Do you wish to say anything further about Number 20, 23, or 28?
DR. STAHMER: I have spoken about 20. Number 23 refers to the same questions regarding the interpretation and the contents of the treaty.
THE PRESIDENT: The statement by the Foreign Commissar of the U.S.S.R. in 1924.... Very well, you say that it is relevant on the interpretation of the Treaty of Versailles. And General Fuller's book . . .
DR. STAHMER: General Fuller also refers in this speech to the personality of Hitler and to the question of rearmament.
TEE PRESIDENT: Yes, that concludes them. [There was a pause in the proceedings while the Judges conferred.] The Tribunal will consider their decision upon your witnesses and upon your documents. Have you anything further to say upon it?
DR. STAHMER: No. [Professor Dr. Franz Exner approached the lectern.]
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Exner?
PROFESSOR DR. FRANZ EXNER (Counsel for Defendant Jodl): May it please the Court, I take the liberty of adding something for the specific reason that there is danger that evidence may be refused which is of crucial importance for my client also. It concerns evidence which will show that War Crimes and violations of international law were committed by the other side too. The Prosecutor has said that this is irrelevant as far as we are concerned here in this Trial. The Defense certainly does not think of making defendants of the prosecutors, but this point is certainly not irrelevant, specifically because: First, it has to do with the concept of retaliation in international law. Retaliation justifies an action which under normal circumstances would be illegal. That is to say, retaliation then has this significance when the individual action is the answer to a violation of international law committed by the other side. If, therefore one wants to justify one's own action from the point of view of retaliation -- one can only do so by proving that violations of law have preceded it on the other side. Secondly, I want to add an important point. It is well known that this war in the beginning was conducted relatively humanely and . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Exner, you will forgive me, the argument which you are presenting to us was fully developed by Dr. Stahmer and will, of course, be fully considered by the Tribunal. [There was a pause in the proceedings while the Judges conferred.]
THE PRESIDENT: Would you continue then, Dr. Exner?
DR. EXNER: The second point is the following: It is well known that at the beginning of this war international law was respected on both sides and that the war was conducted humanely. It was only in the second phase of the war that a terrible bitterness among the fighting powers developed and on both sides things occulted which international law cannot sanction. In my opinion, it is entirely important in the judgment of a crime, whatever crime that may be, to consider the motive. If one does not know the motive of the action, one cannot judge the action itself. And the bitterness which was started, purely psychologically, by the manner in which the war was conducted on one side and on the other, was the motive for actions which normally cannot be justified. I therefore ask the Tribunal to consider carefully before this evidence is declared irrelevant. [There was a pause in the proceedings while the Judges conferred.]
DR.SIEMERS: I should like to mention a matter of principle with reference to the manner in which the relevancy of evidence is being discussed. If I understand the Tribunal correctly, then we should talk today about the relevancy of those witnesses and documents which are still to be brought here. That was exactly what was stated in the Tribunal's decision of 18 February. Now, however, the Prosecution has brought the discussion round to documents which we already have in our hands. I ask the Tribunal to understand me correctly if I protest unequivocally to this. In no case was it possible to discuss the relevancy of the Prosecution's documents weeks before they were presented. If I have documents in my possession, as is the case with most of the documents about which we have spoken, then, as defendant's counsel, I must be able to submit these documents without the consent of the Prosecution. Sir David has said that the relevancy of books which are here in the building is to be examined after we have presented the extracts, and then the Prosecution will decide whether they are relevant. Sir David has also said that numerous books which are here are not relevant. If this motion by the Prosecution is granted, then that is an extraordinary limitation of the Defense which I cannot accept without protest. The Prosecution was permitted to submit documents. The Court has declared that each letter and each document could be presented and therefore I do not understand why we are now arguing about the relevancy of documents which are at hand, since, in my opinion, the Court has already said that we will argue only about the relevancy of documents which are still missing.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought that on behalf of the Tribunal I had explained this morning -- in answer to the argument of Dr. Horn on behalf of the Defendant Ribbentrop -- what the Tribunal was seeking to do today, was to follow the provision of Article 24(d), which provides that the Tribunal shall ask the Prosecution and Defense what evidence, if any, they wish to submit to the Tribunal, and the Tribunal shall rule on the admissibility of any such evidence; and I pointed out that the reason why the Defense had been to some extent treated in a different way from the Prosecution was because in the case of the Defense the Tribunal has got to find all the witnesses and bring them here, and the Tribunal has got, in many instances, to find the documents or supply the documents; and therefore it isn't reasonable that the Tribunal should be asked to bring witnesses or documents here and it also is not in accordance with the Charter, until the Tribunal has heard argument upon the admissibility of the witness or the document. And that is what it is doing. I thought that I had fully explained that in answer to Dr. Horn's argument. It is perfectly true that you cannot rule finally on the admissibility of a document or the admissibility of a witness until you have actually heard the passage in the document which is relied upon or the questions put to the witness which are said to be relevant or irrelevant. Therefore, the final determination upon the question of admissibility will be when the witness is put in the witness-box and asked questions or the document or the passage from the document is actually produced.
DR. SIEMERS: Yes. Excuse me, but I believe that this still does not answer one point. It is undoubtedly true that we are arguing here about documents and witnesses which are not at our disposal. But it is a different thing in the case of those documents which are already here in this building and which are at our disposal as Defense Counsel. To give an example: The White Books which Sir David has mentioned are here; why should we argue now about the relevance of this evidence? This question has nothing to do with the delay of the Trial, nor with the procurement of documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to say anything, General Rudenko?
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, Mr. President. Sir David has already expressed the point of view of the Prosecution on the question raised by the Defense Counsel. I should like to add to what has already been said by Sir David regarding the statements made here by the Defense Counsel. The position of Defense Counsel Exner is that the Defense would not intentionally turn the prosecutor into a defendant and that the Defense will resort to a method of analysis and explanation of events which will establish the motives, for in its opinion, the motive is unknown, and in order to determine this motive it is necessary to examine the question: Were the Geneva and Hague Conventions at least violated by other powers at war with Germany? It stands to reason in my opinion -- and I believe that I am also expressing the point of view of all the Prosecution -- it is really strange to hear such a statement on the part of a lawyer after a 3-months' trial and after the presentation of a mass of evidence by the Prosecution. The Defense unquestionably has full right to submit proof -- documents and witnesses -- on all counts of the charges lodged against the defendants; and, as is evident from this morning's session, when the Prosecution examined the request on behalf of the Defendant Goering, as is known to the esteemed Tribunal, the Prosecution, in its opinion, gave its consent, in major part, to the calling of witnesses. But in the question raised by Dr. Exner we have here positive divergences of opinions and divergences of principle. The Prosecution considers it impossible to diverge from the one fundamental and decisive factor, that this is a trial of the major German war criminals. The Tribunal is investigating atrocities perpetrated by the Hitlerite fascists and as a result of this position, and not losing sight of this fact, the Defense certainly could submit, after examining and analyzing the evidence already presented by the Prosecution, this or that evidence which in some manner could change individual details.
GEN. RUDENKO: But it is not admissible and it would indeed be a grave violation of the Charter to transform examination of these charges into a digression on questions having no relation whatever to this particular Trial. The Prosecution therefore so energetically objects to the requests for and incorporation of such documents as have absolutely no relevancy to this Trial and the examination of which, without a doubt, would lead to a digression from the basic fact. This is what I wanted to add to what Sir David has said on behalf of the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Before the Tribunal adjourns, as it will do now, I want to say that the next four defendants on the Indictment are required to name their witnesses and the subject matter of their evidence, and the documents and the relevance of the documents, by Wednesday next at 5 p. m. The Tribunal will hold a similar session to the session it has been holding this morning with reference to the defense of those defendants on Saturday next at 10 o'clock. The Tribunal will now adjourn until a quarter past 2. [The Tribunal recessed until 1415 hours.] Afternoon Session
THE PRESIDENT: I have an announcement to make. With reference to the announcement that I made this morning, the Tribunal may hear the applications for witnesses and documents of the Defendants Kaltenbrunner, Rosenberg, Frank, and Frick before Saturday. That will depend upon the progress of the case. I have already stated that those applications must be deposited with the General Secretary by 5 o'clock p.m. on Wednesday. Secondly, all the defendants, other than the first eight named in the Indictment, must make application naming their witnesses and the relevancy of their evidence, and the documents and the relevancy of the documents, by Friday next at 5 p. m. Thirdly, the Tribunal will sit in closed session on Monday next at 4 p.m. Perhaps I also ought to say that this does not affect -- it does not refer directly to defendants' counsel who represent the criminal organizations. Those counsel will be heard after the close of the Prosecution's case, as has already been announced. Next would be Hess.
SIR DAVID MAXWEL-FYFE: I only want to say that if the Tribunal did desire to hear anything on the question of reprisals, which was raised by Dr. Exner, Mr. Dodd is prepared, if the Tribunal would care to hear further matter on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The Tribunal would like to hear that now.
MR. THOMAS J. DODD (Executive Trial Counsel for the United States): May it please the Tribunal, I wish to say at the very outset, that I have made a rather hurried preparation during the noon recess of the few notes on this subject based on some work which we had done a little earlier. I am not altogether prepared to go into the matter to any great extent at this time, but I did want to call to the attention of the Tribunal a few of these notes that we have prepared, and to say that, in view of Dr. Exner's contention that some of the documents which are offered by the Defense, or which they intend or hope to offer, are admissible on the theory or under the doctrine of reprisal. We would like to say to the Tribunal that the Convention of 1929 concerning the treatment of prisoners of war expressly prohibits altogether the use of reprisals against prisoners of war. Parenthetically, I might say that the United States prohibited in its Army instructions reprisals against prisoners of war as early as 1862 or 1863. Secondly, I should like to point out that the Hague regulations do not mention at all, insofar as we are able to ascertain, the use of so-called "reprisal action" against civilians. It appears that the Brussels conference of 1874, which accepted the unratified Brussels Declaration, so-called in international law --  that conference rejected or struck out several sections which were proposed by the Russians at that time, having to do with the use of reprisal action against civilians. I cite that because it is interesting and indicates that the powers were certainly thinking about the matter of reprisals against civilians as early as then. Thirdly, I should like to point out to the Tribunal that it is commonly said by the writers on this subject that before reprisal action may be taken a notice of some character is usually required, and this reprisal action is directed against some specific instance which the first power believes to be offensive and which it believes may call for or justify the use of reprisal action.
MR. THOMAS J. DODD (Executive Trial Counsel for the United States): So that some notice of some kind seems to be required by the power which feels it has been offended to the offending power. I might say that in the Prosecution's case-in-chief we specifically avoided any reference to the well-known incident during this war of the shackling of prisoners of war, because there, there was some color of notice, and the matter was resolved by the powers concerned. These are the points that we have had in mind during this brief recess this noontime, and if the Tribunal would like to have us do it, we shall be glad to prepare ourselves further, and to be heard further on this subject at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, the position with regard to the Defendant Hess is set out in Dr. Seidl's communication to the Tribunal; and I have one or two comments to make on that on behalf of the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you comment upon that, Dr. Seidl? Would it be convenient to follow the same course as we followed with Dr. Stahmer, and perhaps Sir David may say if he has any objection, first of all to the witnesses, one by one, that you are asking for?
DR.ALFRED SEIDL: I should like, however, to request the Court to permit me a short preparatory remark and to make a motion.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR.SEIDL: My Lords, from what happened in this morning's session I gained the conviction that now the Trial has entered into a decisive phase, at any rate as far as concerns the Defense. I consequently feel myself obliged to make the following application. I should like to ask that the Court, at this point in the Trial, should, when examining the relevancy of the evidence submitted by the Defense, limit itself to the witnesses, and postpone examination of the relevancy of documents until a later time. To establish reason for this I permit myself to point out the following: The Court issued a ruling regarding the submission of evidence by the Defense for the first time on 17 December 1945. In this ruling only witnesses and not documents were discussed. A second decision is that of 18 February in which the following introductory remark is made, "In order to avoid delay in the securing of witnesses and documents, Defense Counsel shall..." and then follow the remaining contents of the ruling. I am of the opinion, My Lords, that the question as to whether a document has relevancy or not can only be decided when I have this document in my own hands; in other words, when I am familiar with the precise contents of that document. It is impossible in a summary proceeding such as is now being attempted, in which the admissibility of whole books is supposed to be decided on, to pass appropriate judgment as to whether a particular passage in a document has relevancy or not. This question can be decided clearly and definitely only if the Prosecution and the Court as well have the document in their hands in the form in which the Defense wishes to submit it. I am convinced...
THE PRESIDENT: But, Dr. Seidl, I have stated twice this morning that the question of the final admissibility, whether of witnesses as evidence, or documentary evidence, can only be finally decided when the document is actually put in or when the witness is actually asked a question. What we are now considering is whether the document has any possibility of relevance and must, therefore, be searched for, if necessary, or sent for.
DR. SEIDL: Yes. If I understand you correctly, Mr. President, it is not necessary...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal thinks that you had better deal with your witnesses and documents now, and we do not desire to hear any further general arguments on the subject. We desire to hear you upon the documents and the witnesses which you wish to call and produce.
DR.SEIDL: It is, then, a question of the documents I already have in my possession and not of the documents which I wish to obtain.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the documents which you are about to mention.
DR. SEIDL: It is a question of all the documents, and not simply the documents that must first be procured.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we have before us your application for certain witnesses and certain documents, and we wish to hear you upon that application.
DR.SEIDL: Very well, but I must draw up a list by next Wednesday for the Defendant Frank, and I should like to know whether those documents should be brought up which I already have in my hands.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all you had better deal with your witnesses in the same way that Dr. Stahmer did.