dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
FRITZSCHE: I object to the reading of this quotation in the same way as I objected to the submission of the entire minutes of the interrogation, and I refer you to what I testified a few hours ago as to the origin of this record.
GEN. RUDENKO: You already gave an explanation to the Tribunal, and the Tribunal will consider your explanation. This document is submitted, and I intend to cite this part of the testimony. Please follow me-Excerpt Number 2: "In order to justify this aggressive action, Goebbels summoned me to him and gave me instructions to conduct a hostile campaign against Austria. Among other things he instructed me to to dig out old documents in the archives which in any way incriminated the Austrian Government and to publish them in the press. Goebbels stressed that the documents to be published must first of all show that the Austrian people wished to unite themselves with the German nation and that the Austrians adhering to these ideas were being persecuted by the Austrian Government. Furthermore, Goebbels said that the German press had to show that the Germans living in Austria were being systematically persecuted by the Austrian Government which even went to the length of carrying out mass reprisals against them." And further on: "When Germany occupied Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, Norway, and the Balkan countries, acting on the instructions of Goebbels, I organized a similar calumnious propaganda."
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, surely it would be better to ask him with reference to one of these paragraphs: Did he say that?-rather than to put to him the whole document at once.
GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, I have only one paragraph left, and I intended to read it and then to put the question to him.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not objecting to that. I am only suggesting that it would be better if you put to him each paragraph in turn, and not put three or four paragraphs all in one question.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well, Mr. President; I will deal with it in this way. I am asking you, Defendant Fritzsche, do you admit the paragraph read by me concerning the Anschluss?
FRITZSCHE: No; and I maintain that that is not what I testified. That extract contains rather the thoughts which the interrogating Russian officer entertained in respect to my testimony. After it had been drawn up, the record was submitted to me for my signature.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute! What do you deny in it? Take the first paragraph.
FRITZSCHE: Mr. President, I am protesting against everything, particularly against the expressions applied here which I have never used. During my interrogations in Moscow I stated exactly the same things as I stated here in this Trial yesterday, the day before yesterday and today or as I have set down in my affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Take the first paragraph. The first paragraph has just been read to you: "In order to justify this aggressive action..." Were you asked any question about that; and did you make any answer?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, indeed. In many interrogations which were held late at night, I was asked such questions, and to the subjects condensed in this one question I answered as follows: I do not recall the date, but when the Austrian action was about to take place I was summoned to Dr. Goebbels. Dr. Goebbels told me that the Austrian Government of Schuschnigg had plans of such and such a nature-they have been described in sufficient detail here-that a government crisis had developed, that Seyss-Inquart had taken over the Government, that a call for help had come from Austria, and that now the march into Austria would take place.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you now telling us what you told the Russian interrogator, or are you telling us what actually happened in Germany at the time of the Anschluss?
FRITZSCHE: I am telling, what I told the interrogating Russian officer, and that is exactly what took place in the Propaganda Ministry on the day in question.
THE PRESIDENT: You are saying, then, that this first paragraph is entirely made up, are you?
FRITZSCHE: No; I should not like to use the expression "made up," but I should like to say-and I beg permission to do so-which parts in this paragraph are correct. First of all, there is the point that there was a hostile campaign against the Schuschnigg Government; such a campaign actually was instigated in the German press; whether at the moment of his resignation or just before his resignation I do not remember now. Furthermore, it is correct, as set down in this paragraph, that it was proposed to show, by quoting individual cases as far as possible, that under the Schuschnigg Government those who were sympathetic toward Germany were persecuted. These are the points that are correct.
GEN. RUDENKO: Strictly speaking, this means that you have now corroborated what I have just read.
FRITZSCHE: No, no, sir. There is an essential difference.
GEN. RUDENKO: From your point of view. But I believe that you will not deny the fact that you conducted propaganda directed against the Austrian Government. This is the main point of this question.
FRITZSCHE: I must deny that as well. This propaganda was not conducted by me, but by my predecessor, as chief of the German Press Department.
GEN. RUDENKO: Do I understand correctly that you deny having participated personally in this propaganda, but do not deny the fact that there was such Propaganda?
FRITZSCHE: You understand me correctly if by the term "propaganda" in this case you mean the enumeration of those measures used by the Schuschnigg Government against German interests as a whole.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I should like to read the following paragraph of the same testimony which says: `'When Germany occupied Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Denmark, Poland, Norway, and the Balkan countries, acting on the instructions of Goebbels, I organized a similar calumnious propaganda. In every such case I dug out every old document from the archives which incriminated the Governments of these countries as far as Germany was concerned, added my commentary to these documents and attempted in this way to justify this or that aggressive action on the part of Germany." Do you also deny this?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, in that form I deny that as well.
GEN. RUDENKO: But you will not deny that propaganda for the purpose of aggression was conducted against all the countries enumerated in this testimony?
FRITZSCHE: I contest your last remark. I admit the fact of the propaganda, and I have described in detail the individual actions and my participation in them in my affidavit, Document 3469-PS.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well; I do not intend questioning you further, as this has been quite adequately explained in your statements dated 7 January 1946, Document 3469-PS, and which, in fact, do not contradict what has been stated. Is that right?
FRITZSCHE: I see an essential difference. But this Document 3469-PS is absolutely correct.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well, I should like as a supplement to this, to read the testimony of Ferdinand Schorner, which is Document USSR-472 and which has already been submitted to the Tribunal; I mean Extract Number 3. He says in his statement, I read: "Fritzsche's political activity in his function as official radio commentator, in the same way as the activity of the war correspondent, General Dittmar, was subordinated to the main aim of National Socialism, the unleashing of the world war against democratic countries and the contributing by all possible means to the victory of German arms. Fritzsche's principal method, applied during the several years of his activity, consisted in, as I later realized, the deliberate deception of the German people. I mention that because during the last years we soldiers felt this deception especially keenly since in spite of Fritzsche's false lamentations we knew the actual conditions on the front and the actual situation. The main guilt of people such as Fritzsche is that they did know the actual state of things, but despite this, proceeding according to the criminal intentions of the Hitler Government, consciously fed the people with lies or, to use a German expression, 'threw sand in their eyes."' Tell me, Defendant Fritzsche, does this characterization of German propaganda correspond to the truth?
FRITZSCHE: That is utter nonsense and it happens that I can partly prove that. Herr Schorner says part of the activity of the war correspondent General Dittmar was the starting of aggressive wars. General Dittmar spoke over the radio for the first time in the winter of 1942-43. That is one point. The second point is the following: I have never seen Herr Schorner. I do not know him and I have never spoken to him. I should be very surprised if he were in a position to judge whether I deliberately or unconsciously at any time ever said anything that was not true. However-and this is something I must add-during the last few days in Berlin I received indirectly, through State Secretary Dr. Naumann, a report from General Field Marshal Schorner with the instruction that it was left to my discretion to make use of it. It reported that he was in Bohemia with an army which was intact and that he could, if he wanted to, hold this territory for an unlimited period. We in Berlin should not lose courage; he could even come to our aid. I do not know whether Schorner actually made this statement but I think it would be worth while to call General Field Marshal Schorner here as a witness, in order to ask him on what he based his judgment.
GEN. RUDENKO: The fact that you do not know Ferdinand Schorner does not disprove this testimony, for you have yourself stated before this Tribunal that although very many people knew you as an official representative of the Government, you could, of course, not know everybody; is that right?
FRITZSCHE: If you will permit me, sir, I should like to call your attention to something illogical. Even without knowing me, it is very easy for anyone to give an opinion about the things I said, but it is impossible for anyone to judge whether I made those statements in good faith or in bad faith. I am sure that you yourself realize this distinction.
GEN. RUDENKO: You are speaking again of your personal participation, but you do not deny the lying character of the German propaganda?
FRITZSCHE: Again I cannot answer "yes" to the question in the way that you put it. This morning I gave you a basis for questions which can be put to me. I contributed my share to a historical clarification by trying to show what was pure idealism and what were false assumptions; these things are now being confused.
GEN. RUDENKO: I am not putting questions on the basis which you pretend you gave me, but upon the basis of documents which are at the disposal of the Prosecution. Let us go on. I should like to ask you: Did you know the documents about the "Case Green" against Czechoslovakia, about the documents concerning the aggression against Poland, the aggression against Yugoslavia-and about the propaganda which had to be conducted in this respect?
FRITZSCHE: I heard for the first time here the documentary data for Case Green. But as you are now again trying to tie this up with propaganda measures, it is very hard for me to keep both of these matters separate. Perhaps it will serve your purpose if I answer that neither in the case of Czechoslovakia For in the case of Poland nor in any other case did I know about the German attacks until an hour or an hour and a half before they were announced to the German public.
GEN. RUDENKO: Did you say an hour or an hour and a half?
FRITZSCHE: I do not wish to commit myself to an hour or an hour and a half. I do recall that in the case of Russia I had advance knowledge through Dr. Goebbels perhaps 5 or 6 hours beforehand.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You will now be handed Document USSR-493. It is your radio speech in connection with the aggression against Poland. This speech was made on 29 August. Its purpose was to explain beforehand the reasons for the German attack on Poland and it was made on 29 August. I do not intend reading it, but the gist of this speech is that on 29 August you spoke of a series of unexpected events which were imminent. Have you acquainted yourself with this document?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, indeed.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not deny that on 29 August 1939 you made this speech?
FRITZSCHE: No, I do not deny that. I should just like to refer to the fact...
GEN. RUDENKO: Excuse me. Please answer my question first and give your explanations later. This was on 29 August? You do not deny it. I am asking you, did you yourself believe in these explanations of unavoidable war with Poland? Did you yourself believe this at that moment?
FRITZSCHE: Whether at that moment I considered a war unavoidable, that I am not in a position to tell you. But I am able to tell you one thing: I did not believe that Germany was to blame. That if this tension should lead to a war...
GEN. RUDENKO: That is enough.
FRITZSCHE: I ask to be allowed to add...
GEN. RUDENKO: But please be brief.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, let the man answer.
GEN. RUDENKO: If you please.
FRITZSCHE: At that time it was a matter of great satisfaction to me that in the weeks that followed I could see from the Soviet press that Soviet Russia and its Government shared the German opinion of the question of war guilt in this case.
GEN. RUDENKO: I believe it is not the time to discuss this now nor did I ask you for explanations on this subject. You did not answer my question, but let us pass on to another question. On 9 April 1940 you made a speech concerning the reasons for a possible occupation of Norway. You will now be handed an extract from this speech Mr. President, this is Document Number USSR-496. You have that document, Defendant Fritzsche. It is Excerpt Number 4. -
FRITZSCHE: No, I do not have it. Yes, I have found it. It is Page 4.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. Yes, it is Excerpt Number 4. I will read a short passage: "The fact that German soldiers had to carry out their duty because the English violated Norwegian neutrality did not end in a warlike but in a peaceful action. No one was injured, not a single house was destroyed; life took its daily course." This was a lie. Do you admit it or will you deny it?
FRITZSCHE: No, that was not a lie, for I had just been in Norway myself and I had seen these things. And everything will be quite clear if you will permit me to read the next sentence, which says-the next sentence reads as follows...
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Fritzsche, wait a minute. You will read it later.
THE PRESIDENT: But, General Rudenko, you must let the man explain. He wants to read the next sentence in order to explain this sentence.
FRITZSCHE: The next sentence reads: "Even there, where Norwegian troops, instigated by the misguided former Norwegian Government, put up resistance, the civilian population was hardly affected by this, for the Norwegians fought outside the cities and villages...."
GEN. RUDENKO: Well. Now I will show you a document, "An Official Report of the Norwegian Government," which has already been submitted to the Tribunal by the French Prosecution as Exhibit RF-72. Mr. President, in my document book this document is wrongly numbered Exhibit USSR-78. It is Document 1800-PS and it has been submitted by the French Prosecution as Exhibit RF-72. [Turning to the defendant.] Listen, Defendant Fritzsche, how correctly you described the situation in Norway; listen what the "Official Report of the Norwegian Government" says about it. I quote: "The German attack on Norway on the 9th of April 1940 brought war to Norway for the first time in 126 years. For 2 months war raged throughout the country, causing destruction to the amount of 250 million kroner. More than 40,000 houses were damaged or destroyed and about 1,000 civilians were killed." And that describes the situation as it really was. Do you admit that your speech on 2 May 1940 was full of the usual lies?
FRITZSCHE: No, I do not admit that, but I assert that you, sir, in submitting this extract, are not taking into consideration the fact that I, in my introduction, reported that I wanted to describe what I had seen myself, when I made a journey into the Gulbran valley and which I remember took me nearly as far as Atta. It does not in any way prove my description to be incorrect, if, according to the facts ascertained by the Norwegian Government, such loss and damage actually did occur in connection with this undertaking.
GEN. RUDENKO: I believe that the Norwegian people and the Norwegian Government had sufficient experience of the weight of the German occupation, and the government report states actual facts and not the sort of facts which you stated in your propaganda. This document has been submitted in accordance with Article 21 as indisputable evidence, and I do not intend to argue with you. The Tribunal will take note of it. I have a few more questions to put to, you in connection with a matter which has already been dealt with in detail here. It is the Athenia case. I will not question you in detail on this matter, as it has already been ascertained with sufficient accuracy. I am simply asking you: Do you admit now that Fascist propaganda gave out to the public slanderous and false information about the Athenia case?
FRITZSCHE: Whether this was done by Fascist propaganda in Italy, that I do not know. National Socialist propaganda did it in good faith, as I have clearly described.
GEN. RUDENKO: I have already been speaking for nearly an hour about what occurred here and what has been ascertained. Do you agree that this speech was a slanderous one or do you still deny it?
FRITZSCHE: No, I have already admitted that and I also showed clearly how these statements came about.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I am interested only in the personal part you played in this matter. Why did you take such an active part in this matter, and why were you the first man to spread this slander?
FRITZSCHE: I do not believe that I was the first one to bring this matter before the public. However, it is a fact that I spoke very frequently about the case of the Athenia , on the basis of official reports which I believed. I spoke about this case because I happened to be the very man who, at the beginning of the war, spoke on the radio in the evenings.
GEN. RUDENKO: Are you trying to assert that the first report on the Athenia appeared in the Volkischer Beobachter in October, 1939?
FRITZSCHE: I never claimed that.
GEN. RUDENKO: Well. Then I will remind you that you dealt with the Athenia as early as September 1939; is that right?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, of course, the question of the Athenia ...
GEN. RUDENKO: And you spoke about it before the report was published in the Volkischer Beobachter ?
FRITZSCHE: Many weeks before that, yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Therefore, you were the first to spread those slanderous assertions?
FRITZSCHE: No, I cannot confirm that, but rather...
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. In this connection I will put only one other question to you. You will not deny that in 1940 you still spread this version? I will repeat the question. I am asking you, you will not deny that even in 1940 you continued to propagate this slander?
FRITZSCHE: It is the essence of every form of propaganda that it repeats good and effective things as frequently and for as long a time as possible. I have explained already that in December of 1945, here in the prison only, I heard from Grossadmiral Raeder for the first time that it was really a German U-boat that had sunk the Athenia .
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I will pass on to a group of questions regarding your participation in the carrying out of propaganda connected with the preparation of aggression against the Soviet Union. You assert that you had no knowledge of the preparation of aggression against the Soviet Union until 5 o'clock on the morning of 22 June 1941-that is to say, when the German troops had already entered Soviet territory-and when you were called by Ribbentrop to the Foreign Office, where a press conference was being held. Did I correctly understand your testimony?
FRITZSCHE: No. Several hours before that, on the evening of the day preceding the entry, Dr. Goebbels had called some of the departmental chiefs of the Ministry to his house at Wannsee and told them these facts and forbade them to leave or to telephone. That was the first real knowledge that I had of this fact.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You also claim that you got to know of Germany's aggressive aims with regard to the Soviet Union only in 1942, and this according to your own observations, is that right?
FRITZSCHE: I do not know what you mean by that. I tried this morning to make it clear that I began to have doubts as to the truth of the official German reasons given for this attack only when I was in prison. I explained that this morning. A second point, which I emphasized earlier in Moscow when I was interrogated, was that I observed in 1942-it may have been in 1941-after the war with the Soviet Union had broken out, that preparations of all kinds must have been going on for quite some time before 22 June.
GEN. RUDENKO: I will recall to your memory an excerpt from your statement, a document which you confirm in full. It is Number 3469-PS. In Paragraph 42 we read: "At the beginning of 1942 I was a soldier in the eastern theater of war. I saw the extensive preparations which had been made for the occupation and administration of territories extending as far as the Crimea. On the basis of my personal observations, I came to the conclusion that the war against the Soviet Union had been planned a long time before it broke out." Is that statement right?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, certainly. a'
GEN. RUDENKO: Well, then, I have no further questions to put to you regarding this matter. I would like to recall to your memory two further documents connected with the carrying out of propaganda, in view-of the preparation of war and the actual attack against the Soviet Union. I am referring to the minutes of a conference held by Hitler dated 16 July 1941. This document, Mr. President, is Number L-221 and has already been submitted. [Turning to the defendant.] This document will be handed to you and I will quote one or two paragraphs on the first page. I quote: "Now it is essential that we do not disclose our aims to the whole world. There is also no need for that; the main thing is that we ourselves know what we want. But on no account should we render our task more difficult by making superfluous declarations. Such declarations are superfluous for within the reach of our power we can do everything, and what is beyond our power we will not be able to do anyway." And further: "What we tell the world about our motives for our actions must be governed by tactical considerations. We must act here in exactly the same way as we did in the case of Norway, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium. In those cases, too, we did not say anything about our aims, and we shall have the prudence to adhere to this method in the future." Did you have any knowledge of such directives of Hitler?