dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, I am coming to the next document, Number D473, Exhibit Number USA-522. It is a letter from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, dated 4 December 1944. From this also the Prosecution conclude the Defendant Kaltenbrunner's great responsibility. It deals with the combating of criminality among the Polish and Soviet Russian civilian workers. As means for their punishment, the letter states, the Criminal Police have at their disposal police detention and transfer to a concentration camp of all asocial or dangerous prisoners. The document has the signature, "Dr. Kaltenbrunner." What are your views on that?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have no recollection that I have ever signed any such decree.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you deny having signed this letter at all? Or, to be more accurate, do you know anything about the matter?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I now submit Document 1276-PS, Exhibit Number USA-525. The Prosecution have referred to this document. It is a consequence of Hitler's order dated 18 October 1942. According to this, parachutists and sabotage troops are to be exterminated, and Commandos to be surrendered to the SD. In a letter with the signature "Muller," dated 17 June 1944, addressed to the High Command, it says that such parachutists in British uniform were to be treated in accordance with Hitler's order. I am now asking you if you knew of this document signed by Muller, dated 17 June 1944, and if you had any knowledge at all of the matter contained in this document?
KALTENBRUNNER: I had no knowledge of the matter or of this document. But I should like to say the following in this connection: Later I received knowledge of this Hitler order and of his basic attitude to this question. I think it was at the Fuehrer's headquarters in February 1945; and I have there, before witnesses, publicly stated that I was not only personally opposed to such treatment of soldiers and prisoners, but also that I would refuse to carry out any such order from Hitler. I think another defendant here is calling a witness by the name of Koller, and I request that you ask this witness, who was at that time the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, how I expressed it-I believe it was in Hitler's presence- what my attitude was regarding that question, which came to my knowledge for the first time in 1945. I can do no more than I did before this most powerful and almighty man Germany ever had, who declared, "He who does not obey my orders, no matter who the commander, will be shot." I can do no more than what I did say in his presence to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and other officers: "I will not obey such an order."
DR. KAUFFMANN: I now come to Document 2990-PS, Exhibit Number USA-526. This is an affidavit from the witness Schellenberg. According to it, in 1944 a meeting took place between Kaltenbrunner and Muller. Kaltenbrunner is supposed to have stated that actions of the populations against terrorist fliers must not be interfered with; that, on the contrary, the hostile attitude of the population must be encouraged. I shall quote a few sentences from the examination of the witness Schellenberg on 3 January 1946, where he says: "In 1944 on some other occasion during a conference I heard fragments of a conversation between Kaltenbrunner and Muller. The following remark by Kaltenbrunner remains clearly in my recollection: 'All departments of the Security Police and the Sipo must be informed that actions on the part of the population against British and American terror-fliers must not be interfered with; on the contrary, the hostile attitude of the population must be encouraged."' Do you know Schellenberg?
KALTENBRUNNER: Regarding Schellenberg I must say...
DR. KAUFFMANN: In a few sentences please.
KALTENBRUNNER: ... with reference to his credibility in the matter of this document, that he was a protege of Heydrich's and when I took office he was in charge of...
THE PRESIDENT: He wants to know whether you know Schellenberg. That is a question you can answer. The question was, "Do you know Schellenberg?" And he goes off into a long speech without answering the question.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you know Schellenberg? "Yes" or "no"?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, of course. He was the Chief of Department VI.
DR. KAUFFMANN: My question: What were the relations between you and the Chief of Department VI? Do you regard this statement as true or not?
KALTENBRUNNER: That statement is not true, and I should like to give you the reason so that the Tribunal can evaluate that statement. Schellenberg was Himmler's most intimate friend. By Himmler's order, he remained with him to the last day. He is the man who, on Himmler's behalf, established contact with the Swedish Count Bernadotte. He was the man who, at the very last minute, through M. Muehse in Switzerland, established a connection which was used to permit a very few Jewish prisoners to go to Switzerland, the purpose of which was to create quickly a favorable impression for Himmler and Schellenberg abroad. He is the man who, together with another friend of Himmler's, started an action to make an agreement with an organization of rabbis in the United States whereby they were to get him a favorable press in some of the larger newspapers in America. I have criticized Himmler for these tricks and complained and discredited them with Hitler, stating that it was demeaning to the cause and the Reich that in so important a matter these methods should be used by Himmler and Schellenberg. I said the only correct way would be to establish contact with the International Red Cross immediately. Consequently, I prejudiced Himmler before President Burckhardt, and forced him to adopt a different attitude in this question by asking Burckhardt personally to visit these camps.
DR. KAUFFMANN: But I put a completely different question.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, but I had to say this so that you can see how disappointed Schellenberg and Himmler were about what I was doing and why he, now, is interested in accusing me, as has been done in the affidavit, of breaking my word on international matters.
DR. KAUFFMANN: In other words, you want to say that Schellenberg was in opposition to you and against you, and is implicating you unjustly.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now then, in this Schellenberg document the event with reference to these 50 fliers is mentioned; and Schellenberg states that you, together with Muller and Nebe, had a conference and that all of you were trying to find an excuse in order to keep the actual truth of these events from the public. I am asking you: When did you first hear of the shooting of these 50 fliers?
KALTENBRUNNER: That is the Case Sagan.
DR. KAUFFMANN: When did you hear of it? It is a simple question, please.
KALTENBRUNNER: The first time that case became known to me was about six weeks after it happened.
DR. KAUFFMANN: My next question: Do you want to say that you were not involved in the shooting in any way, that to the contrary you were only much later able to investigate the matter?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, that is what I want to say.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you also mean to say that the conference with Schellenberg dealt exclusively with the later attempt to conceal the truth of the matter?
KALTENBRUNNER: It can only have referred to that.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am coming to Document 835-PS, Exhibit Number USA-527. This document also is held against the defendant by the Prosecution. It is the so-called Nacht und Nebel Decree, which is an order from Hitler dated 7 December 1941. Is the expression "Nacht und Nebel Decree" familiar to you? When did you hear of it for the first time?
KALTENBRUNNER: The first time I heard of it was in June 1945 in London. [A document was handed to the defendant.]
DR. KAUFFMANN: This document which I have submitted to you is a letter from the OKW, dated 2 September 1944, addressed to the German Armistice Commission. It is signed by Dr. Lehmann, and in it is stated: "According to the decrees all non-German civilians in occupied territories who have endangered the security and preparedness of the occupying forces by means of terror or sabotage or in any other way are to be handed over to the Security Police and the SD." In the case of so important a matter, it appears improbable that the matter and the Nacht und Rebel Decree were not known to you. ~
KALTENBRUNNER: I had no knowledge and I beg to be given permission to clarify the situation. May I first of all say that no document shows better proof than this of the fact that an executive function is wrongfully attributed to the SD. It says here on Line 4: ". . . who have endangered . . . in any other way are to be handed over to the Security Police and the SD." First of all, it is complete nonsense to state that one and the same thing should be handed over to two different authorities; either it is the Security Police or the SD. This error in the use of the German language found its way into the Fuehrer decree because Heydrich, as Chief of the Security Police and SD, was referred to in short as Chief of SD, but it is an absolute mistake. Whereby, God knows, I am not trying to exonerate the SD from other things which it may, perhaps, have committed, but I want to make it clear that it is wrong to conclude from this that it had executive powers.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, but it is not only the question of the SD, but also of the Security Police.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, and to that I want to say the following: This Fuehrer decree from the year 1941 was not known to me. I am asking you to put yourself in my position. At the beginning of 1943 I came to Berlin. With the exception of a few official visits I commenced my activity in May 1943. In the fourth year of the war the decrees and orders within the Reich and also in the executive sector reached the thousands and were accumulating on the desks and the cabinets of the civil servants. It was absolutely impossible for any man even to read them all within a year, and it, was quite impossible for me to know of the existence of all these orders even had I considered it my duty to do so. But it was not my duty at all. Then I am asking you to consider the following fact: The beginning of my activity was February 1943. On 2 February Stalingrad was surrendered and the largest military catastrophe...
THE PRESIDENT: This is a long speech in answer to a question as to whether he had seen this letter. He says he did not see the letter. Then he makes this long speech.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am now putting this question to you: When did you realize what significance this Nacht und Nebel Decree had and what it meant regarding the treatment of persons it affected? Please give a precise answer.
KALTENBRUNNER: Dr. Kauffmann, the existence of the decree was unknown to me. Had I known that this matter would be held against me here, then I would have been able to nominate a witness in captivity in London who can prove that even in London I had no idea that it existed. We have talked about that in the cell.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The end result, therefore, is that you did not know?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, absolutely ignorant regarding that decree.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I now come to the Document 526-PS, Exhibit Number USA-502, which has been used by the Prosecution. [The document was handed to the defendant.] This refers to the landing of an enemy cutter in Norway on 30 March 1943. That report contains a sentence: "Fuehrer order carried out by SD." The signature on that document is lacking. It is dated 10 May 1943. It is a secret command matter and the heading is "Note." Please, will you make a statement regarding that sentence, "Fuehrer order carried out by SD."
KALTENBRUNNER: The execution of such a Fuehrer order is unknown to me. I want to point out that this note is obviously one made by a military department regarding an event which took place shortly after I had come into office but at a time before I had come to Berlin. I could not have had knowledge of it at all.
DR. KAUFFMANN: It says at the end of the document, "Armed Forces report dated 6 April 1943." It states further as follows: "In northern Norway an enemy ship carrying sabotage troops was forced to fight when approaching the coast and was destroyed." Do you know anything about the connection of this Armed Forces report-as far as you knew of it at all-with the actual decree?
KALTENBRUNNER: No. Of course, I read, daily, practically every incoming Armed Forces report. But from its composition I am unable to determine any participation of any military agency within my sphere.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I now turn to the next document which has been held against the defendant by the Prosecution, Document L37, Exhibit Number USA-506. This is the so-called "responsibility of relatives," that is to say, it refers to crimes committed against relatives of the guilty persons. This document refers to a letter from the commander of the Security Police to the SD at Radom, dated 19 July 1944, according to which male relatives of saboteurs are to be shot and female relatives to be sent to concentration camps. What is your explanation to the Tribunal with reference to that document and the whole matter?
KALTENBRUNNER: The report commences with the words: "The Higher SS and Police Leader East has..." and so on and so forth, and then, "ordered" or "issued the following order." The Higher Police Leader East is a department, which, as a department in an occupied territory, is directly under the jurisdiction of the Reichsfuehrer SS and not under any central department in Berlin. Therefore I could not have had knowledge of that order. The police leaders in occupied territories were immediately subordinate to Himmler.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I now come to the next accusation of the Prosecution regarding the concentration camp at Dachau. A document exists which has the number Document 3462-PS, Exhibit Number USA-528. It is a statement by the Gaustabsamisleiter Gerdes. The Prosecution are accusing the defendant of contemplating the wiping out of the concentration camp at Dachau and its adjoining camps at Muhldorf and Landsberg by bombs or poison. I shall read a few sentences from that document. They are on Page 2 of the German text, near the end of the page: "In December 1944 or January 1945 I was in the office of Gauleiter Giesler in Munich, Ludwig Street 28, and had the opportunity of learning about a secret order from Kaltenbrunner. Gauleiter Giesler received that order in my presence through a courier and, after I had been given permission to read it, it was destroyed in accordance with the remark on the document; 'To be destroyed after cognizance has been taken.' The order which was signed by Kaltenbrunner was worded roughly as follows: "'In agreement with the Reichsfuehrer SS I have instructed all higher police departments that every German who participates in the future in the persecution and destruction of enemy fliers will remain unpunished.' "Giesler told me that Kaltenbrunner was in constant contact with him since he was considerably worried over the attitude 283. of foreign workers and particularly the inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, Muhldorf, and Landsberg, which were in the path of the approaching Allied armies. "On a Tuesday in the middle of April 1945 I had a telephone call from the Gauleiter ordering me to keep myself available for a night conference. In the course of our conversation that evening Gauleiter Giesler disclosed the fact to me that Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner had given him instructions, in accordance with an order from the Fuehrer, that there should be made an immediate plan regarding the liquidation of the concentration camp at Dachau and the two Jewish work camps at Muhldorf and Landsberg.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The instructions stated that these two Jewish work camps at Landsberg and Muhldorf were to be destroyed by the German Air Force, since the sites of those two camps had lately and repeatedly been affected by hostile bombing attacks. The action was given the camouflage name 'Cloud A1."'
KALTENBRUNNER: May I say something to that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: First, please, do you know Gerdes?
KALTENBRUNNER: I do not know Gerdes and I have never seen him.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you know Giesler?
KALTENBRUNNER: The last time I saw Giesler was in 1942, in September.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Was an order of Hitler in existence regarding the destruction of concentration camps?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Will you give a reasonable explanation regarding this document?
KALTENBRUNNER: To give a reasonable explanation for that document is almost humanly impossible, because from the beginning to the end it is an invention and a fake. I brand this document a complete and utter lie coming from Gerdes, and I can only refer you to the deposition supporting my statement by the Higher SS and Police Leader who was the sole competent authority in Bavaria, Freiherr Von Eberstein, who himself calls Gerdes' statement completely incredible. I would like to refute these accusations in detail as follows: He says: "On a Tuesday in the middle of April 1945 I had a telephone call from the Gauleiter ordering me to keep myself available for a night conference."-He-". . . disclosed . . . that Kaltenbrunner had given him instructions, in accordance with an order from the Fuehrer..."-and so on. Nobody in the Reich knew better than Hitler who was responsible for concentration camps and how he had to give an order. He would never have given me such an order and he could not have given it to me because I was, on Hitler's personal order, in Austria from 28 March until 15 April. As to the time from 10 April until 8 May, when I was captured, including the few days when I was in Berlin I can state exactly just where I have been and what I have done, so that the question of giving an order in this connection is impossible. And, anyway, it must have happened earlier, if the witness is talking about the middle of April, which would mean that I would have had to talk to Hitler about this before the middle of April, since otherwise he could not have been asked to be available for a night conference by the middle of April. The existence of Jewish work camps in Bavaria as branches of Dachau, was completely unknown to me.
KALTENBRUNNER: And I am asking you to recognize the absurdity of my sponsoring in April of 1945 such an order, when I tried in March 1945 to start discussions with the President of the International Red Cross, Burckhardt, regarding the release and help to be given to all Jews, and when I made all efforts to have him personally look after the Jewish camps- in which I succeeded.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you have any possibility at all to exert influence on the German Air Force in this respect?
KALTENBRUNNER: I neither had the possibility of giving the Air Force orders-I could only have asked the Chief of the Air Force to give them and there, of course, it would have been turned down, because you must realize that at this point, when everyone knew that the war had come to an end, the Air Force would not have lent its hand to a terrible crime.
DR. KAUFFMANN: And now, with the permission of the Tribunal, and because it is a terrible accusation, I am quoting a few sentences from this document, because the Prosecution, too, have read these sentences into the record. The document goes on to say: "I was aware that I would never carry this order out."-this is Gerdes talking-"Since the action 'Cloud A1' was supposed to have been carried out already, couriers from Kaltenbrunner kept arriving, and I was supposed to have discussed the details of the Muhldorf and Landsberg action with the two district leaders concerned. The couriers, who in most cases were SS officers, mostly SS Untersturmfuehrer, made me read and initial brief and sharp orders. I was threatened with severe punishment including execution in case of disobedience. I could always excuse the failure to carry out the plan with bad weather for flying or with lack of petrol or lack of bombs. "Therefore, Kaltenbrunner ordered that the Jews should be marched from Landsberg to Dachau, so that they should be included in the poisoning action which was going on in Dachau, whereas the action at Muhldorf was to be carried out by the Gestapo. For the Dachau Concentration Camp Kaltenbrunner ordered the action 'Cloud Fire,' which stipulated that the inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, with the exception of the Aryan members of the Western Powers, were to be liquidated with poison. "Gauleiter Giesler received that order directly from Kaltenbrunner and in my presence he discussed with the health officer of the Gau, Dr. Harrfield, the procurement of the necessary amount of poison. Dr. Harrfield promised that the necessary quantity, in accordance with the order, would be obtained, and he received instructions to wait my further orders. Since I wished to prevent this action from being carried out in any event, I gave no further instructions to Dr. Harrfield. The inmates of the camp at Landsberg had hardly arrived at Dachau when a courier from Kaltenbrunner brought the order for the action 'Cloud Fire' to be carried out.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I prevented the execution of the two actions, 'Cloud A1' and 'Cloud Fire' by telling Giesler that the front line was too near and to convey that reason to Kaltenbrunner. "Kaltenbrunner gave written instructions to Dachau that all internees who were members of the Western European Powers were to be loaded on lorries and transported to Switzerland, whereas the remaining inmates were to be marched afoot into the Otztal territory (Tyrol), where the final liquidation of the internees was to be carried out, in one way or the other." Perhaps you can explain in a few words, without going into detail, whether or not this document contains the truth.
KALTENBRUNNER: This document is completely untrue.
DR. KAUFFMANN: It is completely untrue?
KALTENBRUNNER: But, Doctor, I must have an opportunity to define my views. I must be given an opportunity to clarify the details.
DR. KAUFFMANN: You have already defined your attitude. If you have to say anything important in addition to that, you can state it now.
KALTENBRUNNER: The following appears to be important to me: According to his statement, I must have had dozens of couriers during my stay in Austria. Two persons were in my company, my driver and my administrative adjutant, his name was Scheitler, a man who had nothing to do with intelligence and police. There were three of us. I had not even the possibility of dispatching so many couriers. Secondly, as far as Bavaria was concerned, there was no need for me to carry out any preparations, not even under pressure from Himmler. Why? Because, as far as Bavaria is concerned, plenipotentiary powers were given to Obergruppenfuehrer Berger, the same day I was given plenipotentiary powers for Austria. So that there was no reason for me to take such action. Thirdly, I could not even have carried such insane orders regarding a concentration camp in my heart when, at the same time, I was ordering exactly the opposite. I am thinking of Mauthausen. I had given an order to Mauthausen that the camp was to be completely handed over to the enemy. If you can put yourself in Himmler's place, then this would have been completely wrong, since the real criminals were in Mauthausen, whereas the people in Dachau had nothing or little against them. So that even if you thought as Himmler-that the exact opposite would have been necessary-from that point of view, too, it is completely insane to accuse me of any such action.