dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SAUTER: Did you also at that time say that Funk had been there? I repeat, did you before the military court at Dachau say anything to the effect that Funk had been present?
BLAHA: Yes, I said the same thing before the court at Dachau.
DR. SAUTER: About Funk?
BLAHA: Also about Funk.
DR. SAUTER: But is it true, Witness? I ask again whether it is really true, because you are here as a witness under oath.
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: You were interrogated also the day before yesterday?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did you, at that time, also make these statements about Funk?
BLAHA: I said the same thing at the interrogation conducted by the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: Is that also in the record which I believe you signed?
BLAHA: I signed no record.
DR. SAUTER: You signed no record?
BLAHA: No; I simply signed what was read by the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: Well, that is a record.
BLAHA: Yes, but in that record there is no mention of these visits.
DR. SAUTER: Why then didn't you mention these visits the day before yesterday?
BLAHA: I was asked about it orally, and the prosecutor told me that these matters would be taken up orally in the courtroom.
DR. SAUTER: Were you then also told where the defendants sit in the courtroom?
BLAHA: No. Before the military court I was shown all the pictures . . .
DR. SAUTER: Aha!
BLAHA: "And I was asked to identify to the court the various people. I identified the three of whom I said today that I had seen them in person. Funk and others I did not name.
DR. SAUTER: You did not name Funk?
BLAHA: I did not say that I had personally seen him or that I could identify him.
DR. SAUTER: But when the pictures were shown to you did you see the defendants in the pictures?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Now, if I understand you correctly, you knew today where, for instance, Funk or Frick or anyone else was sitting?
BLAHA: Funk I do not know personally, because I did not see him at that time.
DR. SAUTER: Were you not told when the pictures were shown to you at Dachau, "This is Funk; look at him; do you know him"?
BLAHA: No; that was done quite differently.
DR. SAUTER: How?
BLAHA: All the pictures were shown to me and I was asked to say which of these individuals I had seen at the Dachau camp. Of these people I named these three. There was no further discussion whatsoever in regard to the other pictures.
DR. SAUTER: Well, Dr. Blaha, when your hearing started and you were questioned by the President or by the prosecutor, you made a statement, I believe, in the Czech language.
BLAHA: No.
DR. SAUTER: What then?
BLAHA: In the German language.
DR. SAUTER: No; everyone heard that that was not German, but it was obviously Czech.
BLAHA: The first sentence only.
DR. SAUTER: The first sentences? Well, now, as it will in any case come into the court transcript for practical purposes, I ask you to state and to repeat quite literally, giving the true sense, that which you sail then, because we are interested in that from the point of view of the Defense.
BLAHA: I believe that it was included in the transcript because an English translation was added to my statement.
DR. SAUTER: No, I do not believe that Czech is being translated. But anyhow please repeat it. We did not hear it.
BLAHA: Yes. I said that I was ready, since it is technically impossible to use my native Czech tongue in the hearing, to give my testimony in German, because I have lived in German surroundings through all these events which occurred during the last 7 years and which are now the subject of this Trial. Moreover, the special and new expressions referring to life in the camp can be found only in German, and in no other dictionary can one find such suitable and expressive terms as in the German language.
DR. SAUTER: Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions. Thank you.
DR. THOMA: Witness, were the inmates of the Concentration Camp Dachau bound to secrecy?
BLAHA: No. Of course, if someone was discharged from the camp by the Gestapo - those cases were few and far between, particularly in the case of the Germans, who were then drafted one had to sign a so-called pledge of secrecy.
DR. THOMA: Could the inmates of the camp, those inside the camp, who worked on farms, et cetera, talk to the other workers about conditions in the camp?
BLAHA: Yes, there were opportunities, because the people worked in the same rooms and factories with other workers - civilian workers. That was the case in the German armament industry, in the fields, and in all factories in Munich and the surroundings.
DR. THOMA: If I understood you correctly, you said previously that visitors, people who delivered things, and customers, also had an opportunity of observing these conditions in the camp without difficulty.
BLAHA: Yes. Many of these people had access everywhere, in the fields as well as in the various factories, and could observe what life was like in these places.
DR. THOMA: And what did they see there in the way of atrocities and ill- treatment, and so forth?
BLAHA: I believe they saw how the people worked, what they looked like and what was produced there. For instance, I can remember one example of what they saw quite well. At that time I was working in the fields. We were pulling a heavy street roller, 16 men, and a group of girls passed who were on an excursion. When they passed, their leader said very loudly, so that we all could hear it, "Look, those people are so lazy that rather than harness up a team of horses they pull it themselves." That was supposed to be a joke.
DR. THOMA: Witness, when did you first have occasion, after your liberation from the concentration camp, to tell outside people about those horrible atrocities which you related to us today?
BLAHA: I did not understand that; please repeat.
DR. THOMA: When did you first have an opportunity, after your discharge or liberation from the concentration camp, of telling an outsider about these horrible atrocities?
BLAHA: Immediately after the liberation. I was at that time, as chief physician of the concentration camp, interrogated by the American investigating corps; and it was to this corps that I told this story for the first time, and I also gave them various proofs diagrams, and the medical records which I had saved from being burnt.
DR. THOMA: That prosecutor believed the information you gave without further ado?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. THOMA: Witness, you said that the Defendant Rosenberg was pointed out to you in the Concentration Camp Dachau shortly after you arrived there.
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. THOMA: When was that?
BLAHA: In the year 1941; first half of 1941.
DR. THOMA: First half?
BLAHA: I believe so, yes.
DR. THOMA: Can you perhaps remember the month?
BLAHA: I cannot remember. I arrived in April; I believe it was between April and July or something like that.
DR. THOMA: From April to July 1941?
BLAHA: I believe so.
DR. THOMA: Was Rosenberg at that time in uniform?
BLAHA: He was in uniform.
DR. THOMA: In what uniform?
BLAHA: I believe it was an SS uniform.
DR. THOMA: SS uniform?
BLAHA: It was a - I cannot say that very precisely - but he was in uniform.
DR. THOMA: All right, you remember prima facie that it was an SS uniform, that is, a black uniform?
BLAHA: No, at that time the SS no longer wore the black uniform, because after the beginning of the war they wore field uniforms and other similar uniforms.
DR. THOMA: Then, you assume it was a gray uniform?
BLAHA: Something like that; whether it was gray or yellow or brown I don't remember any more.
DR. THOMA: That is just the point: whether it was gray, brown, or yellow. Was it a field uniform?
BLAHA: I do not know because from 1939 I was in the concentration camp, and I am not at all familiar with the various German uniforms, ranks, and branches of the Army, and so forth.
DR. THOMA: But you just said that during the war they changed the uniform.
BLAHA: Yes, the men in the Gestapo also changed theirs. When I was arrested in 1939, all Gestapo personnel wore this black uniform. Then, after the war broke out most of them wore either green or gray uniforms.
DR. THOMA: May I ask you again: Did Rosenberg wear a wartime uniform or a peacetime uniform?
BLAHA: I believe it was a wartime uniform.
DR. THOMA: Wartime uniform? The Defendant Rosenberg was pointed out to you by another comrade, wasn't he?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. THOMA: At what distance?
BLAHA: Well, he was just going down the camp street. That was perhaps 30 or 40 degrees.
DR. THOMA: Thirty or forty metres you mean?
BLAHA: Well, 30 metres; 30 paces I wanted to say, 30 or 40 paces.
DR. THOMA: And had you previously seen photographs of Rosenberg? Did you already have an idea of what Rosenberg looked like?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. THOMA: And when this comrade showed you Rosenberg, was it then necessary for him to say, "This is Rosenberg"? Didn't you recognize him already from having seen him in the photographs which you had previously...
BLAHA: I cannot remember that. But when he showed him to me I remembered that I knew him already from the various pictures in the newspapers.
DR. THOMA: May I ask you to describe the incident precisely? How it happened; where you were standing; where Rosenberg came from; and who was in his company.
BLAHA: Who was in his company? I knew only the camp commander.
DR. THOMA: Who was the camp commander at that time?
BLAHA: Pierkowski was camp commander, Sturmbannfuehrer Pierkowski.
DR. THOMA: Do you know whether he is still alive?
BLAHA: No, I don't.
DR. THOMA: The camp commander?
BLAHA: Pierkowski. Then the Lagerfuehrer Ziel and Hoffmann, I knew them.
DR. THOMA: Now were you in your room and looking out of the window?
BLAHA: No, we were in one of the so-called "block" streets. This led into another street along which the visitors passed.
DR. THOMA: And what was said to you?
BLAHA: "Look, there goes Rosenberg."
DR. THOMA: Was Rosenberg alone?
BLAHA: No, he was with the other persons.
DR. THOMA: That is to say, only with the camp commander?
BLAHA: No, there were many other people with 'trim.
DR. THOMA: That is to say, he had an escort, a staff?
BLAHA: Yes.
DR. THOMA: Members of Rosenberg's staff?
BLAHA: I don't know whether that was Rosenberg's staff, but there were a number of persons.
DR. THOMA: A number of persons? Witness, the Defendant Rosenberg assures me most definitely that he has never been to the concentration camp at Dachau. Is it possible that there has been a mistake?
BLAHA: I believe I am not mistaken. Besides the German in question knew Rosenberg very well, I believe.
DR. THOMA: How do you know that?
BLAHA: Because he told me so definitely. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing that.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma.
DR. THOMA: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You will forgive me if I point out to you that this is intended to be an expeditious trial and that it is not right to take up too much time upon small points like this.
DR. THOMA: My Lord, I ask your permission to remark that the question of whether or not Rosenberg was in the concentration camp is of decisive importance. I thank you.
DR. OTTO PANNENBECKER (Counsel for Defendant Frick): The Defendant Frick states that he has never been in Dachau Camp. Therefore, in order to clarify the facts I should like to ask the following questions: Witness, at what distance do you believe you saw Frick?
BLAHA: I saw him from the window as he passed with a number of people.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Did you know Frick before?
BLAHA: Yes, from pictures.
DR. PANNENBECKER: From pictures? Did you recognize him yourself or did some friend tell you that it was Frick?
BLAHA: A number of us saw him and I looked at him particularly, because at that time he was already Protector of Bohemia and Moravia. For that reason I had a personal interest in recognizing him.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Did Frick wear a uniform?
BLAHA: I do not believe so.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Did you recognize anybody who was with him, anyone from his staff or from the camp command?
BLAHA: I did not know his staff. From the camp command there was Camp Commander Weiter. Camp Commander Weiter, and his adjutant, Otto.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Could you name anyone of your comrades who also recognized him?
BLAHA: There were many comrades of mine who at that time were standing at the window. Unfortunately, I cannot say who they were, because, as you will understand, life in the concentration camp was so full of incidents that one could not record these things accurately in one's memory. One remembers only the more important events.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Did you recognize him at once of your own accord when he passed by, or had it been mentioned previously that Frick was expected?
BLAHA: No, it was not mentioned then. We simply heard that a high-ranking visitor was expected, and we were waiting for this high-ranking visitor. We were not told beforehand who it would be.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Did you recognize Frick immediately when you came into the courtroom, or did you know beforehand that he was sitting in the fourth seat here?
BLAHA: No, I recognized him easily, because I have already seen him many times in various pictures, and because he is a well known person in Bohemia and Moravia.
DR. PANNENBECKER: You believe then that there can be no question of any error.
BLAHA: I don't think so.
DR. PANNENBECKER: May I then ask the Court whether Frick himself may take the stand to testify that he has never seen Dachau Camp? I want to make this motion now so that, if necessary, the witness might be confronted with Frick.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the defendants will understand that they will have the opportunity, when it comes to their time to present their cases, to call all the defendants, but they will not have an opportunity of calling them now. They will have to wait until the case for the Prosecution is over and they will then have an opportunity, each of them, to call the defendant for whom they appear, if they wish to.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I simply thought, that as the witness is available now... [Dr. Kubuschok approached the lectern.]
THE PRESIDENT: It is now 5:00 o'clock and unless you are going to be very short. . . are you going to be very short?
DR. EGON KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for the Reich Cabinet): Yes, Sir. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, you said that when prominent visitors came to the camp, for instance, Reich ministers, extensive preparations were made beforehand. You also said that undesirable persons were removed. Maybe you could supplement that statement. I am interested to know what the purpose of these preparations was.
BLAHA: I meant that everything had to be in order. In our infirmary all the patients had to lie in bed quietly, everything was washed and prepared; the instruments were polished, as is usually the case for high-ranking visitors. We were not allowed to do anything - no operations; no bandages nor food were given out before the visit had terminated.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Could you perhaps tell me which undesirable persons were to be removed, as you said before?
BLAHA: Well, the Russians especially were always kept strictly in their blocks. It was said that they were afraid of possible demonstrations, assassinations, et cetera.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Were prisoners kept out of sight because they showed outward signs of ill-treatment?
BLAHA: It goes without saying that before the visitors nobody was struck, beaten, hanged, or executed.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: To sum up, the purpose of these preparations was to prevent the guests from seeing the concentration camp as it really was.
BLAHA: From seeing the cruelties.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will not sit in open session tomorrow, Saturday, and will only sit in the morning on Monday, because there is work to be done in the closed session tomorrow and on Monday afternoon. I thought it would be convenient for counsel to know that. The Court will now adjourn. [The Tribunal adjourned until 14 January 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: Would you have the witness brought in? I think one of the defendants' counsel was about to cross-examine him. [The witness, Blaha, took the stand.]
HERR LUDWIG BABEL (Counsel for the SS and SD): I would like to put to the witness a few practical questions which I think necessary both for a better understanding of the earlier testimony of the witness and for my own information. The witness was in the concentration camp from 1941 to 1945 and should be well informed on conditions as they were. His memory, as is evident from his previous statements, seems to be excellent. [Turning to the witness.] Do you know how the proportion of political and criminal inmates changed during the various periods? What were the approximate figures of political and criminal inmates in Dachau?
BLAHA: In Dachau it varied. There were political prisoners, professional criminals, and the so-called black or asocial elements. I am, of course, speaking only of the German prisoners; the inmates of other nations were all political prisoners. Only the German inmates were divided into red, green, and black prisoners. The great majority of Germans were political prisoners.
HERR BABEL: Can you indicate the approximate proportion? A quarter, a half, or three-quarters?
BLAHA: I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
HERR BABEL: Can you give figures? How many were political prisoners half, three-quarters, or how many? Can you give an approximate number?
BLAHA: I would say that of 5,000 German prisoners, 3,000 were political and 2,000 were green and black prisoners.
HERR BABEL: Was that the proportion during the whole 4- or 5-year period?
BLAHA: It changed; because many died, some Germans left, many were drafted, and there were many new arrivals. In the last years there were more and more political prisoners, because many of the green prisoners were drafted to the front.
HERR BABEL: What approximately was the total number in 1941, 1943, and 1945?
BLAHA: Do you mean the total number of prisoners?
HERR BABEL: Yes, the total number.
BLAHA: We had 8,000 to 9,000 in 1941; in 1943 there were 15,000 to 20,000; and between the end of 1944 and the beginning of 1945 we had more than 70,000 or 80,000.
HERR BABEL: Another question: You mentioned that at first you worked in the plantations. What did you mean by plantations?
BLAHA: The plantations were a large estate of the SS, in which spices, medical herbs, and things of that sort were raised.
HERR BABEL: Was this plantation inside the camp?
BLAHA: No, it was in the near vicinity of the camp, not a part of it.
HERR BABEL: You also mentioned work in armament factories. I gathered from your testimony that these armament factories were partially within and partially outside the camp. Is that correct?
BLAHA: Yes, at first these so-called German armament works were only outside the camp. Then, as a result of the bombings, some sections were moved into the interior of the concentration camp.
HERR BABEL: What was the number of camp guards in 1941?
BLAHA: For actual guard duty usually three SS companies were in the camp, but at Dachau there were in addition a large garrison of SS and a Kommandantur. Guards were taken from other SS formations from time to time, when it was necessary. It varied and depended on how many guards were needed. For regular duty there were usually three companies.
HERR BABEL: Were the prisoners in the armament factories guarded during working hours?
BLAHA: Yes. Every labor detachment had a commander selected from the guard companies and, in addition, these so-called guards, who went with the detachment to their place of work and then brought the prisoners back to the camp.
HERR BABEL: While you were at the camp, did you witness any ill-treatment on the part of these guards in the course of their daily activities?
BLAHA: Yes; a great deal.
HERR BABEL: Often?
BLAHA: Yes.
HERR BABEL: For what reasons?
BLAHA: The reasons varied, depending on the nature of the guards or the commanders.
HERR BABEL: But you said you were occupied, indeed according to your statements, very much occupied.
BLAHA: Yes.
HERR BABEL: How then did you have an opportunity of observing such ill-treatment?
BLAHA: I performed many autopsies on people either shot or beaten to death at their work, and made of official reports on the cause of death.
HERR BABEL: You said they were shot. Did you see such incidents yourself?
BLAHA: No.
HERR BABEL: Then, how do you know that?
BLAHA: The bodies were brought to me from the place of work, and it was my duty to ascertain the cause of death; that the men had been beaten to death, for example, that the skull or ribs had been fractured, that the man had died of internal hemorrhage, or that he had been shot; I had to make an official report on the cause of death. Sometimes, but this was rare, when an investigation was conducted, I was called in as witness.
HERR BABEL: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, do you wish to re-examine the witness?
MR. DODD: I have no further questions to ask the witness at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the prosecuting staff want to re-examine? Colonel Pokrovsky?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: At this stage of the Trial I have no further questions to ask the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can go. [The witness left the stand.]
MR. DODD: I should like to ask the Tribunal at this time to take judicial notice of the findings and the sentences imposed by the Military Court at Dachau, Germany, on the 13th day of December 1945. The findings were dated the 12th and the sentences on the 13th. I have here a certified copy of the findings and the sentences, Document Number 3590- PS, which I should like to offer as Exhibit Number USA-664.
THE PRESIDENT: Have copies of this been given to the defendants?
MR. DODD: Yes. They have been sent to the defendants' counsel information room.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. DODD: I have one other matter that I should like to take up very briefly before the Tribunal this morning. It is concerned with a matter that arose after I had left the courtroom to return to the United States. On the 13th of December we offered in evidence Document Number 3421-PS, and Exhibit Numbers USA-252 and 254. They were, respectively, the Court will recall, sections of human skin taken from human bodies and preserved; and a human head, the head of a human being, which had been preserved. On the 14th day of December, according to the Record, counsel for the Defendant Kaltenbrunner addressed the Tribunal and complained that the affidavit, which was offered, of one Pfaffenberger, failed to state that the camp commandant at Buchenwald, one Koch, along with his wife, was condemned to death for having committed precisely these atrocities, this business of tanning the skin and preserving the head. And in the course of the discussion before the Tribunal the Record reveals that counsel for the Defendant Bormann, in addressing the Tribunal, stated that it was highly probable that the Prosecution knew that the German authorities had objected to this camp commandant Koch and, in fact, knew that he had been tried and sentenced for doing precisely these things. And there was some intimation, we feel, that the Prosecution, having this knowledge, withheld it from the Tribunal. Now, I wish to say that we had no knowledge at all about this man Koch at the time that we offered the proof; didn't know anything about him except that he had been the commandant, according to the affidavit. But, subsequent to this objection we had an investigation made, and we have found that he was tried in 1944, indeed, by an SS court, but not for having tanned human skin nor having preserved a human head but for having embezzled some money, for what - as the judge who tried him tells us - was a charge of general corruption and for having murdered someone with whom he had some personal difficulties. Indeed, the judge, a Dr.