dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But what about the SS proper? Witness, you know this situation about the SS, I am sure, and you impress me as wanting to tell us candidly what you know about this situation, and I wish you would tell us a little, what the influence of the SS was on these situations.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I pointed out once before that as a purely military adjutant I am able to give you information only about the Luftwaffe, but I am not in a position to say anything about general things of which I have no expert knowledge but merely personal opinions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, was not the SS the subject of a good deal of discussion among you officers, and was not everybody aware that the SS was an organization like the Gestapo which was repressive and cruel?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In the Luftwaffe we had so many troubles of our own because of the growing air power of the enemy that we had no time to worry about anything else.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you knew, did you not, about the 6ampaign against the Jews of Germany and the Jews of occupied countries?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I did not know about the campaign against the Jews as it has been presented here and in the press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I do not want to interrogate you on what is in the press, but do you want the Tribunal to understand that you had no knowledge of a campaign against the Jews in Germany?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I only knew that some of the Jews were taken to ghettos. I had, however, no knowledge of the cruelties against Jews as now published in the press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your father was Field Marshal, was he not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At what period was he Field Marshal?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Field Marshal is a military rank which he held from 1940 until now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He has never been deprived of his rank, is that a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He was never deprived of his rank.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There came a time when your father, as you know, disagreed with Hitler as to military programs?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I know that my father had great difficulties with Hitler concerning political and military questions, and that this led to his retirement in December 1941.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not say to the interrogator who examined you for the United States that he retired from active command in 1941?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what did you understand to be the reason for his retirement? You gave the reasons as follows, that neither in the military nor in the political considerations did he see eye to eye with Hitler, and could not come to any accord and, since he could not make his own opinions prevail, he desired to manifest his dissent by resigning, and that specifically also referred to religious questions.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is true, is it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: That is correct, and I still maintain it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I hope you are proud of it. You were also asked this: And you answered:
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Only with questions of military history and agriculture.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Beg pardon. I did not get that.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He was interested only in economic questions and hunting, but not in military questions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Not in military, yes. You said that, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: May I ask to hear the question once more.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This is your answer in full. You interrupted me. This is your answer to the interrogator: And, with the exception of economics, you still stand by that answer, do you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I have never said that he ever took part in bloody things. It must be an error. I never saw this record again. I did not sign it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have not made myself clear. You said he did not take part in any bloody political endeavors. That is what this says you said.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He did not take part; but I did not say anything of a bloody movement.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not use these terms in the examination?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, I cannot remember having said that. I did not sign the protocol and I did not see it again after the interrogation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you say that you did not use these words on the 26th of February 1946 to Captain Horace Hahn, interrogator?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I say I did not use the words "take part in any bloody endeavors," et cetera , because that expression is foreign to me. Neither do I know in what connection it is supposed to have occurred.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not know of any that he did partake in, do you?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No. My father retired.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Absolutely from this whole Nazi outfit. He disassociated himself from them and retired to a little village rather than go on with the program he did not agree with, did he not? Is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
HERR HORST PELCKMANN (Counsel for SS): I believe that I have no longer any formal right to question this witness after Justice Jackson has cross-examined him, but I should be grateful if I might be permitted to do so since Justice Jackson questioned the witness also about the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness' statement about the SS was that he knew nothing about it. What ground does it give for a crossexamination by you?
HERR PELCKMANN: He was asked whether he was guarded by the SS on Obersalzberg who also had the order to shoot him and Goering too. I should like to, have it made clear whether that was SS or SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
HERR PELCKMANN: I therefore ask the witness: Do you know whether these people whom you have just mentioned were members of the SS or SD? Do you know the difference, Witness?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I have a general idea of the difference. I believe that the troops which had the task of guarding us were SS, but that the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) had been given the special order.
HERR PELCKMANN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
DR. STAHMER: I have only two short questions. Colonel Von Brauchitsch, can you tell us something about the relations between the Reich Marshal and Himmler?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: As far as I know and am able to give information, in their outward relations Himmler and Goering exercised the utmost circumspection, but there was no real personal contact between the two.
DR. STAHMER: Can you tell us whether the German people, until the last moment, still had confidence in Reich Marshal Goering, and showed it on special occasions? Can you mention any particular instances?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can mention two cases. The first one was at the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945 -- I cannot say the exact date -- in a public air raid shelter. The Reich Marshal had no guards or escort and chatted with the people, and they greeted him with the old cry, "Hermann, halt' die Ohren steif! (Hermann, keep your chin up)." Another example was on the trip from Berlin to Berchtesgaden during the night of the 20th to 21st April. In the morning or towards noon of the 21st the Reich Marshal arrived at a town in Sudetengau, where he made a short stop for breakfast at an inn. After a short while the market place became so crowded with people asking for his autograph, that we could not get his car through the crowd. Here too, he was greeted by the old cry, "Hermann."
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. STAHMER: As next witness, I call State Secretary Paul Korner. [The witness Korner took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Is your name Paul Korner?
PAUL KORNER (Witness): Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God -- the Almighty and Onmiscient -- that I will speak the pure truth -- and will withhold -- and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath in German.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down if you wish.
DR. STAHMER: Witness, what official post did you hold before the capitulation?
KORNER: I was State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
DR. STAHMER: In this capacity were you one of the Reich Marshal's close collaborators?
KORNER: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: When did you first meet the Reich Marshal?
KORNER: In 1926.
DR. STAHMER: When were you selected by him to collaborate?
KORNER: At the end of 1931.
DR. STAHMER: In what capacity?
KORNER: I became his secretary.
DR. STAHMER: When were you taken over by the Civil Service?
KORNER: In April 1933. Pardon; the previous date was 1931.
THE PRESIDENT: The translator said the previous date was 1931; which date was 1931?
DR. STAHMER: In 1931 he first came into contact with Goering and became his private secretary. In 1933 he entered the Civil Service.
DR. STAHMER: What post was given to you?
KORNER: I became State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
DR. STAHMER: What do you know about the institution of the Secret State Police, the Gestapo?
KORNER: In the first months after the seizure of power the Secret State Police evolved from the Political Police Department Ia. Basically the Political Police Department remained; it was only reorganized under the name of Secret State Police.
DR. STAHMER: What was its range of activities?
KORNER: Its main task was to watch the enemies of the State.
DR. STAHMER: Have you any information about the establishment of concentration camps?
KORNER: I know that at that time concentration camps were established.
DR. STAHMER: What purposes did they serve?
KORNER: They were supposed to receive enemies of the State.
DR. STAHMER: What do you mean by "receive"?
KORNER: Elements hostile to the State, mainly Communists, were to be concentrated in these camps.
DR. STAHMER: And what was to be done with them there?
KORNER: They were to be taken into protective custody, and, as far as I remember, they were also to be re-educated so that later on they could be incorporated into the community of the people.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know anything of the treatment meted out to the inmates?
KORNER: As far as I know, the treatment was always good.
DR. STAHMER: Did you ever hear anything about unauthorized concentration camps?
KORNER: Yes, in 1933, in various places unauthorized concentration camps were established.
DR. STAHMER: By whom?
KORNER: I remember that one was established in Breslau by SA GruppenFuehrer Heines; and one in Stettin. Whether there were any others, I do not know.
DR. STAHMER: In Stettin?
KORNER: I think it was Karpfenstein, but I cannot say for certain.
DR. STAHMER: And what became of these camps?
KORNER: When the Reich Marshal heard about them he had them instantly disbanded because they were established without his permission.
DR. STAHMER: What was the Reich Marshal's attitude when he heard of complaints?
KORNER: He always followed them up immediately.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know of any case where he took specially strong measures?
KORNER: Yes, I can remember the case of Thalmann.
DR. STAHMER: What happened in that case?
KORNER: It had come to the Reich Marshal's knowledge that Thalmann had not been treated in the way the Reich Marshal wished. He immediately followed the matter up and had Thalmann brought to him.
DR. STAHMER: Who was Thalmann?
KORNER: Thalmann was one of the leaders of the Communist Party and a communist member of the Reichstag.
DR. STAHMER: And how did the Reich Marshal speak to Thalmann?
KORNER: He had him brought into his office and asked him to tell him exactly why he had made a complaint.
DR. STAHMER: And then?
KORNER: Thalmann was very reticent at first, because he feared a trap. When the Reich Marshal spoke to him in a humane manner, he realized that he could speak freely. He told the Reich Marshal that on several occasions he had not been treated properly. The Reich Marshal promised him immediate redress and gave the necessary instructions. He also asked Thalmann to notify him immediately if it happened again. In addition he ordered that any complaints made by Thalmann should be passed on to him.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know how long the Reich Marshal was in charge of the Gestapo in the concentration camps?
KORNER: Until the spring of 1934; 1 believe it was March or April.
DR. STAHMER: Under whom did they come then?
KORNER: By order of the Fuehrer, they came under the competence of ReichsFuehrer Himmler.
DR. STAHMER: What do you know about the events in connection with the Rohm revolt on 30 June 1934?
KORNER: That a Rohm revolt was planned I heard when I was with the Reich Marshal in Essen, where we were attending the wedding of Gauleiter Terboven. During the wedding festivities Himmler arrived and made a report to the Fuehrer. Later the Fuehrer drew the Reich Marshal aside and told him in confidence of Rohm's designs.
DR. STAHMER: Do you also know what he told him?
KORNER: I can only say that what Himmler told the Fuehrer was also brought to Goering's knowledge.
DR. STAHMER: Do you not know any further details?
KORNER: No, I do not know any further details, but I think that is sufficient.
DR. STAHMER: What instructions did Goering receive?
KORNER: The Fuehrer instructed Goering to return to Berlin immediately after the wedding festivities, and the Fuehrer went to southern Germany to investigate the reports personally.
DR. STAHMER: When was this wedding?
KORNER: As far as I remember, it was 2 days before the Rohm Putsch.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether, on the day after the Rohm Putsch, the Reich Marshal was with Hitler?
KORNER: No. The Reich Marshal was in Berlin. We returned to Berlin the same evening.
DR. STAHMER: And on the day after the Rohm Putsch on 30 June, that is on 1 July?
KORNER: The Reich Marshal was in Berlin.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether there was a conversation between him and Hitler?
KORNER: Yes. I remember that the Reich Marshal drove to the Reich Chancellery to report several things to the Fuehrer. In particular the Reich Marshal had heard that on this occasion innocent people also might have or rather had fallen victim. Therefore, he wanted to ask the Fuehrer to stop the whole action immediately.
DR. STAHMER: Was that done?
KORNER: Yes, that was done.
DR. STAHMER: In what way?
KORNER: After the report of the Reich Marshal, the Fuehrer himself issued an order that no further unauthorized action should take place, that the action was over, and if any guilty people were still found they should be brought before the ordinary courts which would decide whether or not proceedings should be brought against these people.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether the Reich Marshal had anything to do with the action against the Jews during the night of 9 November 1938?
KORNER: No, the Reich Marshal had definitely nothing to do with it and had no inkling of it.
DR. STAHMER: How do you know?
KORNER: Because I was with the Reich Marshal on 9 November in Munich -- he was always there on that day. The same evening we went to Berlin. Had the Reich Marshal known anything about it, he would certainly have told me or those who were with him. He had no inkling.
DR. STAHNER: When did he find out about it?
KORNER: Shortly before he arrived in Berlin, or at the Anhalter Station in Berlin.
DR. STAHMER: Through whom?
KORNER: Through his adjutant.
DR. STAHMER: And how did he take the news?
KORNER: He was furious when he received the report, because he was strongly opposed to the whole action.
DR. STAHMER: And what did he do about it?
KORNER: He got in touch with the Fuehrer immediately to ask for the action to be stopped at once.
DR. STAHMER: What were your tasks within the framework of the Four Year Plan?
KORNER: I was Chief of the Office of the Four Year Plan.
DR. STAHMER: What were your tasks?
KORNER: The management and supervision of that office.
DR. STAHMER: How did the Four Year Plan come about? When and how did it start?
KORNER: The official Four Year Plan was announced in October 1936, but its origin goes back to the food crisis of 1935. In the autumn of 1935 the Reich Marshal received the order from the Fuehrer ...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, try not to go quite so fast. It is very difficult to get the translation.
KORNER: Yes, Sir. In the autumn of 1935 the Reich Marshal received the order from the Fuehrer to make the food for the German people secure, as the food situation was serious because of the bad harvests of 1934 and 1935. At the time we were short of at least 2 million tons of breadgrain and several hundred thousand tons of fat, which had to be procured by some means or other. The Reich Marshal solved this problem satisfactorily, and this led the Fuehrer to ask him for suggestions as to how the entire German economy could be made proof against crises. These suggestions were worked out in the first half of 1936 and by midsummer were submitted to the Fuehrer. These suggestions gave the Fuehrer the idea of a Four Year Plan, which he announced on Party Day 1936. On 18 October 1936 the Fuehrer issued a decree appointing the Reich Marshal Delegate of the Four Year Plan.
DR. STAHMER: What were the aims of the Four Year Plan.
KORNER: As I said before, to make German economy proof against crises. The main tasks were to increase German exports to the utmost, and to cover any deficits as far as possible by increased production, particularly in the agricultural sphere.
DR. STAHMER: Did the Four Year Plan also serve rearmament?
KORNER: Of course it also served the rebuilding of the German Wehrmacht indirectly.
DR. STAHMER: Did the Four Year Plan also provide for the allocation of labor?
KORNER: Yes. The Four Year Plan provided for the appointment of a General Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor. The former president of the Reich Labor Office, President Syrup, was appointed Plenipotentiary General.
DR. STAHMER: When was he appointed?
KORNER: That was at the beginning of the Four Year Plan, in the auturnn of 1936.
DR. STAHMER: What were his particular tasks?
KORNER: He had to regulate the allocation of labor and thus put an end to the great muddle on the labor market. DR. STAIDdER: How long did Syrup remain in office?
KORNER: Syrup left in the spring of 1942 for reasons of health.
DR. STAHMER: Who became his successor?
KORNER: His successor was Gauleiter Sauckel .
DR. STAHMER: Who appointed Sauckel?
KORNER: Sauckel was appointed by the Fuehrer.
DR. STAHMER: And what was his task?
KORNER: His main task as Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor was to regulate labor.
DR. STAHMER: Under whom did he work?
KORNER: He was formally under the Delegate of the Four Year Plan, but he received his instructions straight from the Fuehrer.
DR. STAHMER: What was your part in it?
KORNER: In the spring of 1942 I ceased to have any influence over the allocation of labor, since Sauckel received his directions straight from the Fuehrer and carried them out accordingly.
DR. STAHMER: Did you not have any more dealings with Sauckel?
KORNER: No; there were no more dealings, as far as I remember, because he received his directions from the Fuehrer.
DR. STAHMER: Who allocated the manpower?
KORNER: The labor exchanges allocated the manpower and were under Sauckel.
DR. STAHMER: What were the relations between the Reich marshal and Himmler?
KORNER: They were not very cordial. There was frequent tension and mutual confidence was completely lacking.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions? [There was no response.] Do the Prosecution wish to ask any questions?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In your testimony you made some references to a conversation between Goering and Thalmann.
KORNER: Yes, I did.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Will you tell us when that occurred?
KORNER: That must have been in the summer of 1933.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In the summer of 1933? Was that before or after the Reichstag fire?
KORNER: That was after the Reichstag fire.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Thalmann was accused in the Reichstag fire trial and acquitted by the court, was he not?
KORNER: I cannot remember that very well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you remember it at all? Do you remember that he was accused?
KORNER: I can no longer remember whether he was accused. It may be.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know where he died?
KORNER: No, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know that he was interned in Buchenwald after the Reichstag fire and remained there until he died in 1944? Did you know that?
KORNER: Yes, I remember it was said he was a victim of an air attack.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where was he when he was caught in this air attack?
KORNER: Where was Thalmann? I did not quite understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where was he when he became a victim of an air attack?
KORNER: As far as I heard, he was said to be in the Buchenwald concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And how long had he been there?
KORNER: That I do not know; I have no knowledge of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you present at the conversation between Thalmann and Goering?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
KORNER: About treatment during interrogations.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was the only complaint he made?
KORNER: Yes, as far as I can remember. The Reich Marshal asked him whether he had good food and whether he was properly treated. All these things were discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Thalmann found no fault with the concentration camp except treatment during interrogation?
KORNER: Yes; as far as I remember that was his chief complaint.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were the Communists regarded by the Nazis as enemies of the country?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And concentration camps, then, were built to receive Communists among others, were they not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Jews?
KORNER: Yes, as far as they were known to be enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were Jews also regarded as enemies of the State?
KORNER: Generally not; only when they had been recognized as such.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Recognized as such -- what, as Jews?
KORNER: No, if a Jew was recognized as an enemy of the State, he was treated as an enemy of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State?
KORNER: Well, his attitude, his active participation in actions hostile to the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Such as what? What actions?
KORNER: I cannot give any details. I was not Chief of the Gestapo, and therefore I do not know any details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not with Goering as his secretary during the time he was Chief of the Gestapo?
KORNER: In April 1933 I became State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you not have to do with concentration camps under the secret police as such?
KORNER: No, I had nothing to do with that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who handled that for Goering?
KORNER: The then Ministerialdirektor Diels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that, in setting up the Secret State Police, Goering used SS men to man the Gestapo?
KORNER: I cannot remember that any more.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were a member of the SS, were you not?
KORNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was your office in the SS?
KORNER: I never held any office in the SS, neither was I in charge of an SS formation. I was just a member of the SS.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not ObergruppenFuehrer?
KORNER: Yes, I was an SS-ObergruppenFuehrer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, as to these unauthorized concentration camps, you were asked who set them up, and I do not think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up these concentration camps?
KORNER: I remember two camps. In the case of one, I know for certain it was GruppenFuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: GruppenFuehrer of what?
KORNER: SA-GruppenFuehrer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the other?