dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON RUNDSTEDT: That is an error; it was not a misunder-standing between Von Bock and myself. This deployment plan had been laid down by the OKH, and 1, as commanding officer of Army Group South, did not like this gap. That was why I reported to Hitler, saying: "My army group has such and such a task and will do this or that. It would be a good plan if some troops were to pass through this gap." It was not a disagreement with Bock at all, it was a su ggestion for improvement coming from me.
DR. LATERNSER: When you reported to Hitler concerning your intention of carrying out your military tasks, did you do so jointly with Field Marshal Von Bock, or were the reports made one after the other?
VON RUNDSTEDT: -They took place one after the other. First Bock and his army commanders had their turn. Then I had my turn with my commanders. I again refer to the order that officers were not supposed to know any more than what concerned them. That meant that I was not supposed to know how Bock was going to operate with his army group. According to Hitler's order, it was none of my business. I was only allowed to know where the tip of his Tight wing was.
DR. LATERNSER: And that reached a point where you actually reported separately?
VON RUNDSTEDT: Yes, and that is easy to understand since the more there were present at such a report the more uneasy one felt:
DR. LATERNSER: An order has been submitted to you, 4067-PS, according to which German citizens, when found fighting for the Free French units in Africa, were to be shot. Did you ever hear ...
VON RUNDSTEDT: No.
DR. LATERNSER: . . . that this order was put into practice?
VON RUNDSTEDT: No, I do not know anything about the order.
DR. IATERNSER: You said that you had never agreed with Field Marshal Von Blomberg's ideas. In this affidavit, which is constantly being referred to by the Prosecution, Field Marshal Von Blomberg gives his opinion of what is called the "Group of German Staff Officers." Did Field Marshal Von Blomberg have particularly close connections with the generals under him?
VON RUNDSTEDT: He always remained somewhat aloof. He did not seem to live on the earth. He was a pupil of the Steiner school of theosophy, and no one really liked him. Once he was a subordinate of mine, before becoming Minister of War. His position was rather exceptional.
DR. LATERNSER: You have not answered the question. Did Blomberg have such close contact with the generals under him that he could state their opinions in such a decided manner as he did in this affidavit?
VON RUNDSTEDT: I cannot imagine that.
DR.LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further question,
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, in the event that Professor Dr. Schreiber is produced by the Russian Prosecution, and only in that case, I should like to make application for another witness to be questioned on this point, on which he can give the most exact information. But only in that case.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps you would say what point you mean?
DR. IATERNSER: The Russian Prosecution today, during the cross-examination of Von Manstein, submitted a written statement by Professor Dr. Schreiber regarding a special type of warfare.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know, but there are three or four points in that statement. Which one are you referring to? There is not only one point in the statement. There are a number of points.
DR.IATERNSER: In the event the witness arrives I should like to ask that I be afforded an opportunity of producing a witness of mine to be questioned on this point. This is only an application made for an eventuality.
THE PRESIDENT: You must make the application now. What is the application; who is the witness?
DR.LATERNSER: If Professor Dr.Schreiber appears here as witness, I would like to call, to give evidence on this subject, General of the Medical Corps Dr. Handloser, as a witness for the Defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Is he in Nuremberg, or where?
DR. IATERNSER: I cannot tell you where he is, Mr. President, but I will make every effort to find out.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal thinks that the application should be made in writing, giving the reasons why you think this doctor knows anything about biological warfare, and where you can find him. That concludes with your witnesses, does it?
DR. IATERNSER: Yes.
TBE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has now only the SA to con-sider. Will you call your witnesses for the SA? HERR BÖHM: I should like to call as first witness for the SA the witness Bock. [The witness Bock took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
FRANZ BOCK (Witness): Franz Bock.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will -withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. HERR BÖHM: Witness, when did you join the SA?
BOCK: I joined the SA in 1922. HERR BÖHM: What was your profession at the time?
BOCK: At the time I was a commercial employee. HERR BÖHM: What offices did you hold in the SA?
BOCK: From 1922 to 1929 I was an SA private. From 1929 until 1932 1 had the following ranks: Truppfuehrer until about 1930; Sturmfuehrer until 1931, and Sturmbannfuehrer until 1932. When I became unemployed around this time, I professionally joined the SA Group Staff West as adjutant in 1932. In 1933 1 was transferred to the SA Group "Bayrische Ostmark" and became Stabsfuehrer. In 1934, as Standartenfuehrer, I was transferred to Traunstein. From 1935 to 1937 1 was Brigadefuehrer. In 1937 1 became section chief and later department chief with the Supreme Staff of the SA. In 1940, 1 performed my military service. After having completed my military service toward the end of 1942, 1 was sent to Duesseldorf as commander of the Group Lower Rhine. There I remained until the collapse in 1945. HERR BÖHM: So you are one of the oldest SA leaders. You can therefore tell us why the SA was created and how it was organized.
BOCK: Originally, the SA was created as a sports and athletic association in about 1920. Shortly thereafter they were organized into a guard or protective organization, as a security group for duties in assembly halls and for self-protection. At that time, the SA consisted of young idealists and front-line soldiers of the first World War and was not specifically organized until approximately 1923. It was created in accordance with the local needs and necessities as the Party happened to see fit. HERR BÖHM: You have talked of a self-protection squad for duties in assembly halls. What was to be achieved by these means?
BOCK: The spreading of National Socialist ideas met with much resistance by political opponents, who tried to fight the Party with all means, even by terror. From that a so-called protective organ-ization arose and a so-called assembly security guard. HERR BÖHM: Why did the SA declare their main task to, be the fight against the opponents of their movement and its great aims?
BOCK: Every urge for self-preservation demands a struggle. The realization of National Socialist ideas, with the aim of assuming power in the State, required political struggles and fighting. Our weapons, however, were spiritual ones-propaganda, the spoken word, and mass demonstrations. HERR BÖHM: What was the development of the SA from 1925 -until its complete organization in 1931? ~
BOCK: The SA from 1925 on developed organically, generally speaking keeping pace with the development of the entire Party. It was closely connected with the Party, and merely had a very insignificant organizational construction of its own. At that time, the Party and the SA were recognized by the rulers of the State and were legalized by them, just as all other political parties, like, for instance, the Reichsbanner or the Red Front Fighters' Association, the combat units which formed part of the various organizations and parties of the time. HERR BÖHM: What reasons existed in your opinion for a reorganization in 1931?
BOCK: The development of the Party and the spreading of the SA over the entire Reich necessitated at that time, in my opinion, a closer co-ordination and a corresponding organization of the leadership of the SA. Furthermore, it was urgently necessary, because of the Party rallies which took place every year and in which the SA was mainly responsible for the organization, that the SA should be closely organized and united for these propagandistic purposes. BERR BÖHM: Why did the SA wear uniforms, and did this type of clothing correspond to military functions?
BOCK: In my opinion, it is not correct that the SA had military uniforms in the literal sense. First of all they had a grey windjacket and later on a brown shirt, but most of the other clothing was of a civilian nature. The SA had to have a certain uniform at that time to distinguish it from the other political organizations such as the Reichsbanner, et cetera. It would be fallacious to hold that the uniform was of a military character and we never considered that this type of clothing could or should be of a military nature. HERR BÖHM: Did the members of the other organizations at the time wear any badges of distinction indicating they were units?
BOCK: Yes, of course the Reichsbanner, for instance, had uni-forms similar to ours; they wore our type of grey windjackets and special caps. As far as I remember, the Red Front Fighters' Associa-tion, too, wore a kind of uniform, a green-brown shirt, and so on. All organizations at the time were appearing in the uniform typical of their organization. HERR BÖHM: Did the SA have arms and who was allowed to carry such arms?
BOCK: The SA was not allowed to carry arms in conformity with regulations. After 1933, that is, at the end of 1933 or in the beginning of 1934, the SA received the so-called "Dagger of Honor." Later on-after the seizure of power-leaders only were aRowed. to carry a pistol, and then only if they had an appropriate police permit or a valid SA pass. The carrying of arms, particularly during the period of struggle, was checked upon by the police and State authorities, and I remember from the time when I was a unit leader, that before and during every meeting or during our marches and demonstrations, the Police searched us for arms. We had the strictest orders at the time not to carry arms, even when we were in danger of being attacked.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for 10 minutes. [A recess was taken.] HERR BÖHM: Witness, you know that SA members were active in the service of the State and of the Police and were armed. By whom were they armed in these instances?
I BOCK: As far as I know, the SA units which were used for emergency State services or as auxiliary Police were armed by the competent authorities by whom they were employed, and were also generally led by the corresponding military or police offices. HERR BÖHM: You know that special units were established in the SA. Please tell us what the tasks of these special units were.
BOCK: These special units were created in the SA, in the first place, to correspond to the peculiar characteristics of people of the different regions-for example, the people living near the sea coast or in the mountains-or, in the second place, to allow the technical abilities of the SA men to be utilized. Training in these units was, in general, the same as in other SA units. Only to the extent that these units had the necessary material at their disposal or could obtain it-such as signals equipment-was service in these specialized fields carried on. In addition, particularly in the earlier days, we needed these special units, also called technical units, for our big parades, for the demonstrations and so forth, because thus we could be com-pletely independent. For example, in carrying out a big Party rally in Nuremberg it was absolutely essential for directing and encamping 100,000 men to have the necessary signals units and engineering units to make the arrangements ourselves for these rallies; and it was the same in the individual Gau territories. There also, signals units were set up for such purposes. - Furthermore, later these signals units and special units were urgently needed for service during catastrophes and for protection against catastrophes, in which the SA specialized. HERR BÖHM: For what purpose did the SA keep musicians' units?
BOCK: They were an essential component of the marching units whenever they appeared for propagandistic and recruiting purposes. In addition, we needed these musicians' units for the big rallies and demonstrations of the Party. HERR BÖHM: What points of view governed service in the SA?
BOCK: I should say that that varied greatly everywhere. Partly it was determined according to purely Party viewpoints, such as I mentioned in regard to these special units for the Party rallies, parades, and so forth, for the meetings, the distribution of handbills and so forth. Furthermore, SA service was necessary for arranging the columns for the parades in such a way that they would make a good impression and be a means of recruitment. It was the spiritual and physical development of the units which was effected through the training program of the Supreme SA Leadership. And finally, there was the service for emergencies, which had to be practiced before-hand in order to be effective. HERR BÖHM: Did the SA members fulfill their obligations?
BOCK: As far as I could see in my units, the SA men performed their duty gladly, only there were great difficulties for the men, difficulties arising from the men's occupational duties and due to problems of distance and time. For example, a worker in the Ruhr district could, of course, not always be available to follow up his duties. As I emphasized at the beginning, service varied greatly, and it was especially difficult in country districts in the summertime. As a rule efficient training, could only be carried on during the few fall and winter months. HERR BÖHM: Did the SA men perform their duty according to their oath or in blind obedience?
BOCK: The SA man performed his duty voluntarily. He followed, according to an oath, the orders which were given to him. The oath was that he, the SA man, was bound to absolute obedience to his superior unless illegal things were demanded of him'. That is about how it read. HERR BÖHM: Service in the SA was voluntary, you said. Do you know of no cases in which the principle of voluntary service was broken?
BOCK: It may be that units appeared with the SA which were not built up on a voluntary basis. I am referring, for example, to the Reich Finance Schools or the units which were recruited primarily from students later on, or possibly also such nationalist organizations as had been taken over by the SA. HERR BÖHM: Was punishment inflicted in the SA? Was there a penal code and why was it necessary?
BOCK: There was a penal code in the SA and there were punishments. The SA had to have these in order to maintain dis-cipline and order in its ranks. One must consider that in the SA. We had people from all sections of the population, and that especially after the seizure of power we received an enormous num-ber of people into our ranks, whose characters we were not acquainted with, so disciplinary and penal codes had to be created in order to maintain order and discipline. There was no punishment involving imprisonment in the SA. So-called arrest sentences were provided for, which were intended primarily for the schools. In all my time I was never obliged to use them. HERR BÖHM: From th6 fact of the existence of a penal code, can one not conclude a military character of the SA?
BOCK: Not according to my opinion. One must have punish-ments and penal codes in any organization. HERR BÖHM: What other regulations were there in the SA?
BOCK: There was a general service regulation hi the SA; special orders were contained in the salute regulation, the uniform regula-tion, the medical regulation, and the drill order. HERR BÖHM: Why was this drill regulation necessary? Must one not conclude a military character of the SA from it?
BOCK: The drill regulation was a regulation for exercise.- It was introduced in the SA in order that the marching units should make a good impression. These exercises were for the appearance and bearing of the men, and were primarily to have an effect on the marching discipline. A comparison with the service regulations of the Army is not possible, for, as far as I am acquainted with these regulations of the Army, they include drill with arms and sham battles, while we had only physical exercises for the purpose of attaining good marching discipline. HERR BÖHM: Was there not an SA Sport or Defense Insignia for special training? '
BOCK: There was an SA Sport Insignia. After 1939, after the decree of 19 January, it was called the Defense Insignia (SA-Wehrabzeichen). This SA Sport or Defense Insignia was an award for achievement, just like the German Sport and Athletic Insignia. It included Group 1, so-called physical exercises, that is, achieve-ments of a physical nature; Group 2, defense sport exercises for training willpower, and Group 3, occupational service, water sports, and special tasks-training of the mind. Those are the exercises that were taught and practiced. This Defense Insignia had the purpose of achieving moral and physical fitness among the SA. HERR BÖHM: What do you mean by moral and physical fitness?
BOCK: By that I mean there was taught in the schools a mental attitude in the sense of strong patriotic conviction, the training of the men for defense and self-possession, and finally the maintaining of physical stamina through training in sports. HERR BÖHM: Was the execution of the tasks connected with the Sport Insignia immediately possible on a large scale, or was special preparation necessary?
BOCK: The execution of these exercises for the SA Sport Insignia required an extensive preparation. It is obvious that to obtain this insignia the men had to be taught by competent instructors and leaders and that examiners had to be trained first before the exercises for the acquisition of -this insignia could be carried out on a broad basis. In addition, for carrying out the work connected with this insignia we often lacked the necessary means, above all in the country. Thus it happened that after the re-establishment of this Sport Insignia in 1935 it could only make headway with the bulk of the SA men very gradually and year by year. In addition, the work for this Sport or Defense Insignia was not the main task which we had in the SA, but taking this test was more or less voluntary and considered supplementary. HERR BÖHM: Are training and the discipline of this Defense Sport Insignia to be judged from a military point of view?
BOCK: In my opinion, this insignia is not to be judged from a military point of view but, as I said, it was like the Reich Sport Insignia, an insignia of achievement. Essentially it included the disciplines which were required for the acquisition of the German Sport Insignia and which are at the basis of any other sport dis-cipline, such as the Olympic Games, for example, modem pentathlon, obstacle races, throwing the hammer and javelin, riding, swimming, et cetera. HERR BÖHM: The Prosecution asserts that sudi activitie-st. played a great role in the defense of the country. What do you have to say to that?
BOCK: Possibly, but only to the extent that all functions of civil life play a certain role in the defense of a country. HERR BÖHM: Did attendance at the SA schools entail any military qualifications? What schools were there in the SA?
BOCK: There were four possibilities of training in the SA. First, the so-called week-end training, covering free Saturdays and Sundays. At these week-end courses the lower ranks, the Schar-fuehrer and Truppfuehrer, were primarily trained. This was a so--called elementary training for the lower units and could be quite brief according to circumstances and necessity. The next training school was the so-called SA Group School, that is, a course within the district of a group. It was for the Sturmfuehrer and lasted about two weeks. At the SA Group Schools the purpose of the training was the strengthening of comradeship amongst the Sturmfuehrer, to introduce them to general SA service with their units, to instruct them briefly in sport activities and at the same time to make them acquainted with the disciplines of the Sport or Defense Insignia.  Furthermore, questions of the day were discussed, a brief general intellectual education was given, and, finally, they were given an examination of their achievements, ability, and character. The next training school was the Reich School. These were primarily for the secondary leaders, the Sturmbannfuehrer and Standartenfuehrer. The training was more or less the same as at the Group Schools, only one step higher. Generally there was an examination of the ability and achievement of the individual and of his character, and an introduction to SA service at the equivalent rank. These schools were also ...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Böhm, can't you condense this a little bit? We have got this all. You are going straight through the examinations as far as I can make out, when you know we don't want that. HERR BÖHM: Yes, Mr. President, I will try to condense it a little. [Turuing to the witness.] The Prosecution asserts that 25,000 officers were trained in these schools. What do you have to say to that? Officers for the Wehrmacht, of course.
BOCK: SA Fuehrer were never trained as officers of the Wehr-macht at these schools; only SA Fi1hrer were trained and no one else. HERR BÖHM: Were drills with arms carried out at these schools?
BOCK: No, none at all. HERR BÖHM: The Prosecution alleges further that 70 percent of the militarily trained men of the SA were sent to the Wehrmacht. What do you have to say to that?
BOCK: According to the German defense law, every German had to do his military service no matter to what organization he belonged. The SA did not train any soldiers. In 1940 1 myself served in the Wehrmacht as a simple private and worked my way up to be an officer, although I was active as inspector of the SA Group Schools. HERR BÖHM: Did the Wehrmacht have an opportunity to influence these schools in any way?
BOCK: No, the Wehrmadht had no opportunity to influence these schools and no right to inspect the schools. HERR BÖHM: Tell me, Witness, what do you understand by political soldiery and 9piritual arming in the SA?
BOCK: Political soldiery means the general attitude and bearing of the men connected with a clear political conception. Spiritual arming was training in the fundamentals of physical, mental, and spiritual bearing, nothing else. HERR BÖHM: You are acquainted with the decree of the Fuehrer of 1939 on premilitary and postmilitary training of the SA. How about this order? Was it carried out or not?
BOCK: This order of 19 January was not carried out. Imme-diately after the outbreak of war, when the preparations for the execution of this order were far from being concluded, the Com-mander-in-Chief of the Army repealed it and postponed it until the end of the war. When this order was published on 19 January, the Chief of Staff, Lutze, intended to make an experimental beginning of this training on I October, but he did not get to do so. At the beginning of the war everything still remained in an experimental and preparatory state. HERR BÖHM: Can the decree of the Fuehrer of 19 January 1939 be interpreted to mean that it pursued a logical development of the work of the SA before 1939?