dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SAUTER: In other words, you represented city, state, and Party, all at once-the highest authority of city, state, and Party in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. Now the situation was such in the administration that there was an official representative to take charge of national affairs, namely, the Regierungspraesident; for the municipal administration there was another representative, the mayor; in the Party, the Deputy Gauleiter in Vienna had the title of Gauleiter. I should not like to belittle my responsibility for the Gau by explaining that, and I want to protect the exceptionally efficient Deputy Gauleiter who was there. I just want to say- that in order to clarify my position.
DR. SAUTER: What really was your position as Reich Defense Commissioner, Witness? Was that a military position, or what was it?
VON SCHIRACH: That was not a military position at all. The Reich Defense Commissioner was simply the head of the civil administration, in contrast to the situation prevailing during the first World War, where the head of the civil administration was assigned to and subordinated to the commanding general; in this war the Reich Defense Commissioner was co-ordinate with him, not subordinate. The tasks of the Reich Defense Commissioner-at least, that is how I saw my tasks-were at certain intervals, to co-ordinate the most pressing problems of food economy, transportation-that is, local and distant transportation, coal supplies, and price regulation for the Gaue of Vienna, Upper Danube, and Lower Danube, all of which belonged to Wehrkreis XVII. There were several meetings for that purpose-I believe three all together. In 1942 the reorganization which I previously mentioned took place. Bormann carried his point against the Reich Marshal. The Reich Marshal was of the opinion that the Reich Defense Commissioner had to be Defense Commissioner for the entire Wehrkreis. Bormann wanted each Gauleiter to be Defense Commissioner, and so that led to the division. From 1942 on I was only Reich Commissioner for Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, it seems that a decree was issued at that time-will you please tell me when you were informed about it- namely, a decree by Reichsleiter Bormann, that not more than two Gauleiter could meet.
VON SCHIRACH: That is not a decree by Bormann; that was an order by Hitler.
DR. SAUTER: What were its salient points?
VON SCHIRACH: I must explain that briefly. Because of the fact that the Reich Commissariat was subdivided, I had to meet from time to time with the Reichsstatthalter of other provinces in order to discuss the most important questions, especially concerning our food economy. However, I believe it was in 1943, Dr. Ley came to me in Vienna and brought me an official order from the Fuehrer, according to which it was considered illegal-that was the way he expressed it-for more than two Gauleiter to meet for a conference At that time I looked at Dr. Ley speechless; and he said: "Yes, that does not concern you alone. There is still another Gauleiter who has called a conference of more than two, and that fact alone is already considered as virtual mutiny or conspiracy."
DR. SAUTER: Witness, when you were in Vienna, were you given a further mission which took up much of your time? Please tell us briefly about that.
VON SCHIRACH: I had just started to work in Vienna when, in October 1940, I received an order to appear at the Reich Chancellery.
DR. SAUTER: Will you please be very brief.
VON SCHIRACH: And there Hitler personally gave me the mission of carrying out the evacuation of all German youth from areas endangered by aerial attack, and simultaneously to carry out the evacuation of mothers and infants; and he said that that should begin in Berlin and then gradually take in the entire Reich. He said that education was of secondary importance now; the main thing was to maintain the nervous energy of the youth and to preserve life. However, I asked at once that I be given the possibility of establishing an educational organization, and I did so. I do not wish to speak about details, but one of the demands, which I made at once-this is important in connection with the Indictment-was that there should be no difficulties placed in the way of young people's participation in church services. That was promised to me, and it was expressed very clearly in my first directives for the children's evacuation. The youth leaders who were active in this field of my organizational work will confirm this.
DR. SAUTER: This evacuation of children to the country was a very extensive task, was it not?
VON SCHIRACH: It was the most difficult, and from a psychological point of view, the most complicated work which I ever carried out. I transferred millions of people in this way; I supplied them with food, with education, with medical aid, and so on. Of course that work took up my time fully or to a large extent only during the first years. After that I had trained my assistants for that kind of work.
DR. SAUTER: Later, as I have heard from you, you tried from time to time to report to Hitler about your successes and about problems requiring decision. How often during the entire years of the war were you admitted to discuss that important field of work with Hitler?
VON SCHIRACH: Mr. Attorney, I am afraid I have to correct you. I never tried to report to Hitler about my successes, but only about my problems.
DR. SAUTER: Problems, yes.
VON SCHIRACH: About that entire program of evacuation of children I could only report to him twice; the first time in 1940, after I had got the whole program under way, and the second time in 1941, when the evacuation had reached very large proportions. And about Vienna I could only report on very rare occasions, and in 1943 the possibility of reporting ceased altogether with the breach of relations which I will describe later.
DR. SAUTER: Then, during your period in Vienna you became the Chairman of the Wuerzburg Bibliophile Society.
VON SCHIRACH: That is an honorary office, the Wuerzburg Bibliophile Convention had appointed me Chairman of the German Bibliophile Society.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honor, Schirach-Number Schirach-1 of the document book makes reference to that matter, and I submit it as a piece of evidence. It it an affidavit by an old anti-Fascist, Karl Klingspor, an honorary member of the society, who gives valuable information about the character of the Defendant Von Schirach. And in addition, Herr Von Schirach, I believe you were the Chairman of the Southeast Europe Society, is that correct?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: In brief, what was the mission of that society?
VON SCHIRACH: It had as its purpose the improvement of trade relations, economic relations, with the southeast. Its functions Were essentially in the field of research and representation.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what were your main Viennese activities?
VON SCHIRACH: My principal activities in Vienna were social work and cultural work, as I have already explained before.
DR. SAUTER: Social work and cultural work?
VON SCHIRACH: These were the two poles which dominated my entire political life.
DR. SAUTER: I come now to the particular accusations which have been made against you by the Prosecution concerning that period in Vienna. Among other things you have been accused of participating in the so-called slave-labor program, and I ask you to state your position concerning that, and in that connection also to deal with Directive Number 1 of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor, of 6 April 1942, which was presented, I believe, as Document 3352-PS. Please go ahead.
VON SCHIRACH: Maybe I would do best to start with the decree by which Gauleiter were appointed Plenipotentiaries for the Allocation of Labor under the Plenipotentiary General.
DR. SAUTER: 6 April 1942.
VON SCHIRACH: In the way of documentary material that decree contains no more than that the Gauleiter could make suggestions and submit requests to the competent of flees for the allocation of labor. But they were held responsible-I do not know whether by this decree or another one-for the supervision of the feeding and quartering, et cetera , of foreign workers. This feeding and quartering, et cetera , of foreign workers was-in my Gau and I believe also in all other Gaue of the Reich-mainly in the hands of the German Labor Front. The Gauobmann of the German Labor Front in Vienna reported to me very frequently about the conditions among German workers and foreign workers in the Gaul He often accompanied me on inspection tours of industries; and from my own observations I can describe my impressions here of the life of foreign workers in Vienna as far as I could watch it. I well remember, for instance, my visit to a large soap factory where I saw barracks in which Russian and French women were living. They had better quarters there than many Viennese families which lived six or eight people in lithe usual one-room apartments with kitchen. I remember another inspection where I saw a billet of Russian workers. It was clean and neat, and among the Russian women who were there I noticed that they were gay, well-nourished, and apparently satisfied. I know about the treatment of Russian domestic workers from the circle of my acquaintances and from the acquaintances of many assistants; and here, also, I have heard, and in part observed myself, that they were extremely well treated. Let me say something in general about Vienna as a place for foreign workers. For centuries foreign workers have worked in Vienna. To bring foreign workers from the southeast to Vienna is no problem at all. One likes to go to Vienna, just as one likes to go to Paris. I have seen very many Frenchmen and French women working in Vienna, and at times I spoke with them. I also talked to French foremen in the factories. They lived as tenants somewhere in the city, just like any other private person.
VON SCHIRACH: One saw them in the Prater. They spent their free time just as our own native workers did. During the time I was in Vienna, I built more factory kitchens than there are in any other Gau in Germany. The foreign workers frequented these kitchens just as much as the native workers. About treatment at the hands of the population, I can only say that the population of a city which has been accustomed for centuries to work together with foreign elements, will spontaneously treat any worker well who comes from the outside. Really bad conditions were never reported to me. From time to time it was reported that something was not going well here or there. It was the duty of the Gauobmann of the Labor Front to report that to me. Then I immediately issued a directive from my desk by telephone to the regional food office or the quota office for the supply of material, for kitchens or heating installations, or whatever it vitas. At any rate, I tried within 24 or 48 hours to take care of all complaints that came to me. While we are on the subject I would like to give my impression of the use of manpower in general. I am not responsible for the importation of labor. I can only say that what I saw in the way of directives and orders from the Plenipotentiary General, namely the Codefendant Sauckel, always followed the line of humane, decent, just, and clean treatment of the workers who were entrusted to us. Sauckel literally flooded his offices with such directives. I considered it my duty to state that in my testimony.
DR. SAUTER: These foreign workers, who were in the Gau Vienna and for whom you do not consider yourself responsible, were they employed in the armament industry or elsewhere?
VON SCHIRACH: A large portion was employed in agriculture, some in the supply industry. Whether there were some directly in the armament industry I could not say. The armament industry was not accessible to me in all its ramifications, even in my functions as Gauleiter, because there were war production processes which were kept secret even from the Reichsstatthalter.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in connection with the subject of Jewish forced labor, a letter was read, Document 3803-PS. It is, I believe, a handwritten letter from the Defendant Kaltenbrunner to Blaschke. Blaschke, I believe, was the second mayor of Vienna.
VON SCHIRACH: He was the mayor of Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: This is a letter of 30 June 1944. In that letter Kaltenbrunner informs Blaschke that he had directed that several evacuation transports should be sent to Vienna-Strasshof. "There are four transports," it says in the letter, "with about 12,000 Jews, which will arrive in the next few days." So much about the letter. Its further content is only of importance because of what it says in the end-and I quote: "I beg you to arrange further details with the State Police Office, Vienna, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ebner, and SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Krumey, of the Special Action Command Hungary, who is at present in Vienna." Did you have anything to do with that matter, and if so what?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know of the correspondence between the Codefendant Kaltenbrunner and the mayor of Vienna. To my knowledge Camp Strasshof is not within Gau Vienna at all. It is in an altogether different Gaul The designation, "Vienna-Strasshof," is, therefore, an error. The border runs in between the two.
DR. SAUTER: And were you informed of the matter itself at that time, or only here in the courtroom?
VON SCHIRACH: I know of that matter only from this courtroom, but I remember that mention was made about the use of Jewish workers in connection with the building of the Southeast Wall or fortifications. The Southeast Wall, however, was not in the area of Reich Gau Vienna. It was a project in the area of Gau Lower Danube, Lower Austria, or Styria. I had nothing to do with the construction of the Southeast Wall; that was in the hands of Dr. Jury, that is, the O. T....
DR. SAUTER: O. T. is the Organization Todt?
VON SCHIRACH: . . .the Organization Todt. And in the other part of the border it was in the hands of Dr. Uiberreither, the Gauleiter of Styria, and his technical assistants.
DR. SAUTER: So I can sum up your statement to mean that you had nothing to do with these things because they were matters which did not concern your Gaul
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I cannot understand what connection there should be with Gau Vienna. Whether the mayor intended to divert some of these workers for special tasks in Vienna is not known to me. I do not know about that matter.
DR. SAUTER: In the same connection, Witness, another document has been submitted, 1948-PS, a file note of 7 November 1940. That was a date on which you had already been Gauleiter in Vienna for several months and it, too, concerns forced labor of the Jews who were capable of work. That file note was written on stationery with the heading "The Reichsstatthalter in Vienna," and apparently the note in question was written by a Dr. Fischer. Who is Dr. Fischer? What did you, as Reichsstatthalter, have to do with that matter? What do you know about it?
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, Dr. Fischer is not known to me personally. I do not want to dispute the possibility that he may have been introduced to me once and that I do not remember him; but I do not know who Dr. Fischer is. At any rate, he was not an expert working in my central office. I assume that he may have been an official, because his name appears in connection with another document also. He was probably the personal consultant of the Regierungspraesident. The note shows that this official used my stationery, and he was entitled to do that. I believe several thousand people in Vienna were entitled to use that stationery, according to the usage of German offices. On this note he has put down a telephone conversation with the Gestapo from which it can be seen that the Reich Security Main Office-that is Heydrich-was the office which decided, by internal directives to the Gestapo, on the use of Jewish manpower. The Regierungspraesident wanted to know more about that; but I believe one cannot draw the conclusion from this that I was informed about cruelties committed by the Gestapo, as the Prosecution has concluded. It is doubtful whether I was in Vienna at all at that time. I want to remind you of my other tasks, which I have described before. However, if I was there, I certainly did not concern myself with the work of cleaning up the streets. But I should like to say that the variety of my tasks caused me to establish an organizational structure which did not exist in other Gaue, namely, the Central Office of the Reich Leader.
DR. SAUTER: Perhaps you will tell us, before concluding for today, approximately how many officials in Vienna were subordinated to you.
VON SCHIRACH: I guess it may have been about 5,000 officials and employees.
DR. SAUTER: Shall I continue, Mr. President? It is 5:00 o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn. [The Tribunal adjourned until 24 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: Is counsel for the Defendant Bormann present?
DR. FRIEDRICH BERGOLD (Counsel for Defendant Bormann): Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be convenient to you to present your documents on Tuesday at 10 o'clock?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, agreed.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be convenient to the Prosecution?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Certainly, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Quite convenient, would it?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, we left off yesterday with Document Number 1948-PS. That, as you will recall, is a memorandum by a certain Dr. Fischer about a telephone conversation he had held with an official of the Secret State Police, Standartenfuehrer Huber, from Vienna, and refers to forced labor of Jewish youth. Special mention is made of the employment of Jews in the removal of ruined synagogues. In connection with this memorandum I should like to put just one more question to the Defendant Schirach. [Turning to the defendant.] When were these synagogues destroyed in Vienna? Was it in your time and on your responsibility, or at another time?
VON SCHIRACH: The synagogues in Vienna were destroyed 2 years before I assumed office in Henna.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I now proceed to the chapter on anti-Semitism which-according to your admission yesterday-you followed in your youth. I should like to know what your attitude was, when you joined the Party and when you became an official in the Party, toward a practical solution of this anti-Semitism?
VON SCHIRACH: According to my opinion-in 1924-1925- Jews were to be entirely excluded from the civil service. Their influence in economic life was to be limited. I believed that Jewish influence in cultural life should be restricted. But for artists of the rank of, for instance, Max Reinhardt, I still envisioned the possibility of a free participation in this cultural life. That, I believe, exactly reflects the opinion which I and my comrades held on the solution of the "Jewish Problem" in 1924-1925 and in the following years. Later, when I was leading the high school youth movement, I put forward the demand for the so-called Numerus clausus . It was my wish that the Jews should be allowed to study only on a proportional basis commensurate 'to their percentage of the total population. I believe one can realize from this demand for the Numerus clausus , known to the entire generation of students in that period, that I did not believe in a total exclusion of the Jews from artistic, economic, and scientific activities.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I have submitted a document, Document Schirach-136, in the Schirach document book, which contains statements by an official of the Reich Youth Leadership about the treatment of Jewish youth as contrasted with Christian youth. Do you know what attitude the Reich Youth Leadership had adopted at that time toward the Jewish youth?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that we are dealing with the decree of the year 1936.
DR. SAUTER: Autumn 1936?
VON SCHIRACH: Autumn 1936. According to that, Jewish youth organizations were to exist under the official supervision of the Reich Youth Leader, who controlled all the youth of Germany, and Jewish youth would be able to carry out their own youth education autonomously.
DR. SAUTER: It says in that decree, inter alia -I quote one sentence only from Document Schirach-136 of the Schirach document book: "Today in its youth, Judaism already assumes that special, isolated position, free within its own boundaries, which at some future date Judaism will occupy within the German State and in the economy of Germany and which it has already occupied to a great extent." Witness, at about the same time, or shortly before then, the so-called Nuremberg Laws had been promulgated, those racial laws which we have frequently heard mentioned here. Did you help pass these laws, and how did you personally judge these laws?
VON SCHIRACH: I had no part in the drafting of these laws. In my room at the Hotel Deutscher Hof, here in Nuremberg, I was surprised to find a slip of paper stating that there would be a Reichstag meeting on the next day and that it would take place in Nuremberg. At that Reichstag meeting, at which I was present, the Nuremberg Laws were promulgated. I do not know to this day how they were drafted. I assume that Hitler himself determined their contents. I can tell you no more about them.
DR. SAUTER: Can you state on your oath, and with a clear conscience, that before these laws were published you had not known of the plan for such laws, although you had been Reich Youth Leader and Reichsleiter?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: After these laws had been promulgated in Nuremberg, how did you personally envisage the further development of the Jewish problem?
VON SCHIRACH: I must say, first of all, that we had, as a matter of fact, not expected these laws at all. I believe that the entire youth of the country at that time considered the Jewish problem as solved, since in 1935 there could be be no more question of any Jewish influence. After these laws had been published we were of the opinion that now, definitely, the last word had been spoken on the Jewish problem.
DR. SAUTER: Briefly, Witness, you are accused of having incited and influenced the youth of the country. I therefore ask you: As Reich Youth Leader did you incite youth to anti-Semitic excesses, or did you, as Reich Youth Leader, and particularly at meetings of the Hitler Youth, make any inflammatory anti-Semitic speeches?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not make any inflammatory anti-Semitic speeches, since I attempted, both as Reich Youth Leader and youth educator, not to add fuel to the fire; for neither in my books nor in my speeches-with the exception of one speech in Vienna, to which I shall refer later on and which was not made at the time when I was Reich Youth Leader-have I made any inflammatory statements of an anti-Semitic nature. I will not make myself ridiculous by stating here that I was not an anti-Semite; I was-although I never addressed myself to the youth in that sense.
DR. SAUTER: The office of the Reich Youth Leader published an official monthly entitled Will and Power, Leadership Publication of the National Socialist Youth . Excerpts from this official publication have previously been submitted to the Tribunal in the document book. Now I would be interested to know: Is it true that certain Party authorities repeatedly demanded from you that you publish a special anti-Semitic issue of this official Youth Leadership publication in order to show the youth of the country the path to follow in the future, and what was your attitude with regard to that demand?
VON SCHIRACH: It is true that the Reich Minister for Propaganda repeatedly demanded of my editor-in-chief that such an anti-Semitic issue should be published. On receiving the report of the editor-in-chief I invariably refused to comply with this request. I believe that the editor-in-chief has already signed a sworn affidavit to that effect.