dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
LAMMERS: Complaints about misgovernment in the Government General came in frequently from Frank himself as well as from other departments against Frank.
MAJOR JONES: Did you have knowledge of the utter ruthlessness of Frank's methods in the Government General?
LAMMERS: I only heard half your question.
MAJOR JONES: You were receiving reports from Frank as to what he was doing in the Government General, were you not?
LAMMERS: Yes. Reports came in frequently and I immediately passed them on to the Fuehrer as transmit matters. Most of them went to Reichsleiter Bormann or the adjutant office of the Fuehrer. These were reports...
MAJOR JONES: Just a moment. If you deal with the questions I put to you, we shall get on much faster, you know. Just answer the question I put, briefly. I am going to put to you one message which Frank's diary indicated that you received. At Page 41 of the English text of Frank's diary, there is this entry for the 5th of August: "The Governor General sends the following teletype to Reich Minister Dr. Lammers: "The city of Warsaw is for the most part in flames. Burning down the houses is also the surest way of depriving the insurgents of hiding places. After this rising and its suppression, it's deserved fate of complete annihilation will rightfully overtake Warsaw or be imposed upon it." Do you recollect receiving that teletype?
LAMMERS: To my knowledge this report did come inland was immediately transmitted to the Fuehrer. However, I was not concerned in the action itself; that was a military measure and military reports normally went straight to the Fuehrer. In all probability I passed on this teletype message not only to the Fuehrer, but probably also to the Chief of the OKW.
MAJOR JONES: I am not concerned with the action you took in these circumstances; I am concerned with your knowledge, because you have denied to this Tribunal, time and time again, that you ever knew anything of these abominations that were going on under the Nazi regime. So just deal with the question of your knowledge at the moment. You have said...
LAMMERS: I know that this report was received...
MAJOR JONES: And that was a characteristic Frank message' was it not?
LAMMERS: And that an annihilation action had been decreed in Warsaw and that there was fighting in Warsaw. After all, I had no right to give orders to the Governor General. I could only transmit his report to the Fuehrer. The report was meant for the Fuehrer and not for me personally.
MAJOR JONES: You say that Frank was opposed to the institution of concentration camps. That is your evidence, is it not? Is it your evidence that Frank was opposed to concentration camps?
LAMMERS: Yes. Frank himself told me that in principle he was opposed to internment in concentration camps, for he agreed with my view that such a proceeding must at least have a legal basis.
MAJOR JONES: That is what he told you?
LAMMERS: Yes, he told me that. Yes.
MAJOR JONES: Just let me read to you one brief extract from his diary to show why he disapproved of concentration camps. I am reading from Page 45 of the diary. He is referring to the Polish intelligentsia, and he says: "First, we do not need to deport these elements to the concentration camps in the Reich, because then we should only have annoyance and unnecessary correspondence with their families; instead we shall liquidate matters in the country itself." Then he goes on to say that: ". . . we do not intend to set up concentration camps in the real sense of the term, here in the Government General. Any prisoners from the Government General who are in concentration camps in the Reich must be put at our disposal for the AB Action, or dealt with there. Any one who is suspected here must be liquidated immediately." That is why Frank opposed the institution of concentration camps. He believed in immediate murder, did he not?
LAMMERS: It may be that Frank's diaries and his actions do not agree with what he told me, but I only know what he told me to be his opinion of concentration camps. I do not know what he wrote in his diaries nor do I know what he did in practice, I had no right to exercise supervision over the Government General.
MAJOR JONES: You have spoken of the battle between Frank and various other Reich commissioners and Reich ministers and the SS. I suggest to you that the battle between Frank and the SS Brigadefuehrer Kruger was a battle for power, a battle between personalities, and was not connected in any way with Frank's desire to see decency and justice determine the administration of the Government General.
LAMMERS: If you mean that Frank's statements to me do not agree with his actions, you must question Herr Frank on the point. I am not responsible for his actions. I can say only what Herr Frank told me.
MAJOR JONES: You see, you were receiving reports not only from Frank himself but from the SS, were you not?
LAMMERS: A great many reports came in to me and were passed on in the routine way, for I was but a channel for such reports. In any case, reports from the SS in most cases did not go through my office.
MAJOR JONES: You were another of these highly placed post offices on which the Nazi Reich was founded, were you?
LAMMERS: I am sorry, I did not understand that.
MAJOR JONES: Do you remember communicating with Himmler about the situation in the Government General?
LAMMERS: Yes, certainly. I know that Himmler would have liked to remove Governor General Frank from the Government General. He would rather have had some one else as Governor General.
MAJOR JONES: You submitted a report to Himmler on the strength of a discussion you had had with SS General Kruger, did you not?
LAMMERS: I cannot recall a discussion with General Kruger at the moment, unless I am given more exact information as to when it took place.
MAJOR JONES: Will you just look at the Document 2220-PS, which is Exhibit USA-175. That is your report to Himmler. You will see that that report is dated the 17th of April 1943, addressed to Himmler, with reference to the situation in the Government General. I just read some of it; it has not been read before: "Dear Herr Reichsfuehrer: "We had agreed at our conference on 27 March of this year that written material should be prepared on the situation in the Government General, on which our intended mutual report to the Fuehrer could be based." That was the mutual report of the SS and yourself, and then the next paragraph reads, "The material.. ."
LAMMERS: That was a report made on instructions given me by the Fuehrer to investigate certain complaints made against Frank. A series of complaints against Frank had been received and the Fuehrer had given instructions that Himmler and I should investigate the matter. That is the matter we are concerned with now.
MAJOR JONES: And you and your colleague, Himmler, you see, were actively interested in this matter. I just want you to look further at this report. You will see that in the report itself it is headed, in Paragraph A: "The tasks of the German administration in the Government General. "The German administration in the Government General has to fulfill the following tasks: "1. For the purpose of guaranteeing the food supply for the German people, to increase agricultural production and to collect it as completely as possible, to allot sufficient rations to the native population occupied with work important for the war efforts, and to deliver the rest to the Armed Forces and the homeland." Then it goes on to deal with the difficulties of extracting sufficient manpower and wealth from the territory of the Government General for the benefit of the Third Reich. And then towards the end it deals specifically with the utilization of manpower, and it is to that paragraph that I desire to draw your particular attention. Have you found the paragraph headed, "Mobilization of manpower," dealing with the difficulties that the administration in the Government General was confronted with? I draw your attention to it because it contains this sentence: "It is clear that these difficulties have been increased by the elimination of Jewish manpower."
LAMMERS: Where is that, please?
MAJOR JONES: It is in the paragraph headed, "Mobilization of manpower."
LAMMERS: Yes, but that is not my report.
MAJOR JONES: But you said that in your covering letter that the memorandum was checked with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kruger, who agreed with it in full. You recollect in your covering letter you indicated that this memorandum had received your consideration. Now, whether you wrote that or not, is not the matter that I am concerned with at the moment. What I want you to explain to the Tribunal is, first of all, did you appreciate that this report contained the sentence, "It is clear that these difficulties of manpower have been increased by the elimination of Jewish manpower?"
LAMMERS: May I please be allowed time to read this document through? I cannot reply to documents several pages long unless I have read them. I find it quite impossible; and I ask for time to read this report which is several pages in length.
MAJOR JONES: You have the time required; but I only want you to concern yourself with one sentence, you see. You can take it that in the last paragraph but one of that report there appears this sentence about the elimination of Jewish manpower, and what I am going to suggest to you is that...
LAMMERS: No-where is that? I have not read this sentence. I have not yet found the place. Where can I find it? Is it at the top or at the bottom of the page? If I may read the whole page, I will find the sentence; I will need a few minutes for this. Can you give me the approximate place? This is evidently Kruger's report and he probably means the further evacuation of the Jews to the East. I do not know what you mean by "elimination." With the best intentions I am not in a position to give an explanation on the spur of the moment of one sentence taken out of a context of 14 pages. It is absolutely impossible.
MAJOR JONES: Are you saying that elimination of Jewish manpower is to be translated as emigration of Jewish manpower?
LAMMERS: I do not know. I will have to read the complete document in order to give you an explanation of the report. There are 14 closely written pages in it, not written by myself; and I do not know what the connection is.
MAJOR JONES: You know, do you not, that Hans Frank himself was in favor of a policy of extermination of the Jewish people?
LAMMERS: I do not know whether he held this view. He told me exactly the opposite, and as a witness I can only tell you what he said to me and not what he said elsewhere.
MAJOR JONES: You see, this Tribunal has had read to it extracts from Frank's diary in which he says that, "My attitude towards the Jews. . ."-and this is found at Page 12 of the German copy-"My attitude towards the Jews is such that I expect them all to disappear." And he says, as to the 31/2 minion Jews in the Government General, that, "One cannot shoot them or poison them, but we will be able to take steps in order to successfully annihilate them. The Government General must become as free of Jews as the Reich is." Are you saying that Frank did not express similar views to you?
LAMMERS: If Frank made these entries in his diary and if he actually did say that, then it contradicts what he told me. That is all I have to say on that point.
MAJOR JONES: Did you know that Frank's diary indicates that on the 9th of September 1941 there were 31/z million Jews in the Government General and when he makes an entry on the 2d of August 1943, he says that only a few labor companies are left? Did you not know that?
LAMMERS: I do not know that this happened because he told me nothing about it. He himself must account for what he said in his diary. He himself must establish whether he did it or not. I knew nothing about these things.
MAJOR JONES: In view of your translation of "elimination" as "emigration," Frank says in connection with those millions that this Tribunal knows were murdered' "All the others have, let us say, emigrated." Are you using the word "emigrated" in an equally cynical and brutal sense as that?
LAMMERS: I am not in a position to comment on Herr Frank's diary. Herr Frank himself will have to do that.
MAJOR JONES: You, Witness, were from the beginning of this tale of terror involved in assisting in drafting legislation towards achieving the end of racial persecution, were you not? Is that not so? Did you not put your signature to the Fuehrer's decree empowering Himmler to carry out the necessary measures to eliminate from the territory of the Reich racial elements that you, as Nazi, did not approve?
LAMMERS: I do not recall ever signing anything like that.
MAJOR JONES: Well, I will draw your attention to it. It is Document 686-PS, which is Exhibit USA-305. It is the decree of Hitler to strengthen German folkdom. That is the title of it. It is dated the 7th of October.
LAMMERS: Yes, I know of the decree.
MAJOR JONES: I thought it would not surprise you.
LAMMERS: But this says nothing about what you asserted.
MAJOR JONES: Just look at the first clause of it. It reads: "The Reichsfuehrer SS is responsible, in accordance with my directives: "1. For finally returning to the Reich all German nationals and racial Germans abroad; "2. For elimination of the harmful influence of such alien parts of the population as represent a danger to the Reich and the German people." Then it goes on with, "Formation of new German settlement districts, by resettlement..." and it says: "The Reichsfuehrer SS is authorized to take the necessary measures to carry out his duties." You signed that decree, did you not?
LAMMERS: It is correct, but it says nothing about killing Jews. It speaks of the elimination of a harmful influence exercised by alien populations. There is no mention of the elimination of aliens, but only of the elimination of the influence of alien elements of the population; the removal of a person's influence does not mean the removal of the person himself.
MAJOR JONES: Are you, as the head of the Reich Chancellery, the man who knew all the secrets of the Third Reich, saying to this Tribunal that you had no knowledge of the murder of millions and millions who were murdered under the Nazi regime?
LAMMERS: I mean to say that I knew nothing about it until the moment of the collapse, that is, the end of April 1945 or the beginning of May, when I heard such reports from foreign broadcasting stations. I did not believe them at the time, and only later on I found further material here, in the newspapers. If we are speaking now of the elimination of a harmful influence that is far from meaning annihilation. The Fuehrer did not say a word about murder; no mention was ever made of such a plan.
MAJOR JONES: I now want you to turn your attention to the Defendant Rosenberg. You have told us that the first you heard of several of the major military operations of the Third Reich, was through the newspapers. Was it from the newspapers that you heard of the Nazi plans to invade the Soviet Union?
LAMMERS: I learned of the war of aggression against Russia only when everything was complete. The Fuehrer never said a word about a war of aggression against Russia before that. He spoke only of military complications with Russia which might be imminent, but I did not interpret that as meaning a war of aggression against Russia.
MAJOR JONES: Did you know that the war between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was a defensive war on the part of Nazi Germany?
LAMMERS: The Fuehrer never told me anything except what I have already stated here, that troop concentrations had been observed which led us to the conclusion that military complications with Russia might be expected. "I want to be prepared for any eventuality, and therefore Herr Rosenberg is to deal with Eastern questions." That was all I heard and I was completely unaware of the fact that a war of aggression was to be waged against Russia.
MAJOR JONES: Just one minute.
LAMMERS: From various incidents it could be inferred that we had to expect an attack; at least, it was represented to us in that way, as far as we were informed.
MAJOR JONES: But you-you know, Witness, that as early as the 20th of April 1941 Hitler was planning and plotting the details of action against the Soviet Union. Just look at Document 865-PS, Exhibit USA-143, will you? That, as you will see, is a decree of the Fuehrer, dated the 20th of April 1941, and let me remind you that the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany did not take place until the 22d of June. On the 20th of April you signed that decree in which Hitler named Rosenberg as "My Commissioner for the central control of questions connected with the East European region."
LAMMERS: Yes, that is correct. I have never testified to anything else. That was the assignment, the first assignment which Rosenberg was given, and on this occasion the Fuehrer spoke of possible military complications with Russia and granted Rosenberg his authority.
MAJOR JONES: Just a minute. Answer the question I am putting to you at the moment. You can give your explanations later. You look further down that Document 865-PS. You see it is a letter from you to Keitel, dated the 21st of April, in which you say: "Herewith I am sending you a copy of a Fuehrer decree of the 20th of this month by which the Fuehrer appointed Reichsleiter Rosenberg as his Commissioner for the central control of the question of the East European region. In this capacity, Reichsleiter Rosenberg is to make all the necessary preparations for a possible emergency with the greatest speed." Are you saying that these activities of yours and Rosenberg, at that time, were not connected with aggressive plans on the part of Nazi Germany?
LAMMERS: I most certainly will not say that. By an emergency the Fuehrer meant, as I said before, that the Fuehrer believed that there might be war with Russia. That was the emergency which led to Rosenberg's assignment. There is not a word here about a wear of aggression and, Indeed, there was no question of it.
MAJOR JONES: You know that Rosenberg was in communication with other government departments of the Third Reich, in connection with this preparation for aggression against the Soviet Union, weeks before the invasion took place; do you not?
LAMMERS: Whom is he supposed to have influenced? I did not hear whom he is supposed to have influenced.
MAJOR JONES: Perhaps I was not understood. He was collaborating with other departments of the Third Reich weeks before the invasion happened.
LAMMERS: He may have worked with other departments in carrying out his assignment, but I do not know to what extent or with what purpose. Nor do I know what other assignments he was given by the Fuehrer.
MAJOR JONES: At least you do know that Hitler made clear to Rosenberg before he took office, what the main principles of Nazi policy towards the conquered territories of the Soviet Union was to be, do you not? You attended the conference of Hitler on the 16th of July 1941, when he set out his principles and aim with regard to the Soviet Union?
LAMMERS: This happened after the outbreak of war but not before it. Previous to this, there was never any discussion about a war of aggression in my presence.
MAJOR JONES: You said that Rosenberg was a man who believed again in liberal treatment for those whom the Nazi armies conquered, but you were at Hitler's conference in July 1941, in the very first weeks of this man's responsibility, and you heard Hitler in that conference enunciating a program of terror and brutality and exploitation, did you not?
RAMMERS: On 16 July Herr Rosenberg had already raised objections to it.
MAJOR JONES: But they were doubts which did not cause him to leave his post and he continued until the Red Army made his position somewhat uncomfortable in the East, did he not?
LAMMERS: Yes, but he always followed principles of moderation. I have discussed Rosenberg's activities only generally. I cannot testify to all the special measures which he took and I can but tell you what Rosenberg told me, the complaints he made to me personally and what he described to me as his aims. If he acted at all differently, I know nothing about it.
MAJOR JONES: You were familiar with the conflict between Rosenberg and Koch, the Reich Commissioner for the Ukraine, were you not?
LAMMERS: Yes, I know all about that. Rosenberg was always in favor of moderation and reasonable application of al1 political measures. Koch inclined towards a more radical solution.
MAJOR JONES: When you say a "more radical solution," what do you mean by that, "mass murder"?
LAMMERS: No, I do not mean that at all.
MAJOR JONES: But you did in fact know that Koch was a murderer, did you not?
LAMMERS: That Koch was a murderer?
MAJOR JONES: Yes.
LAMMERS: I do not know the particulars. I had no control of it.
MAJOR JONES: I will just draw your attention to them. Look at the Document 032-PS, which will be Exhibit GB-321, the document which has not yet been exhibited. Khakis a report dated the 2d of April 1943, from Rosenberg to Mingler, with a copy to you. It is a report on the murder of the people of the Zuman wooded area so that there could be established a place for Reich Commissioner Koch to hunt in.
LAMMERS: I know of this complaint and I even submitted it to the Fuehrer. Herr Rosenberg explained that Reich Commissioner Koch had had a large wooded area cleansed of all towns and villages too because he wanted to hunt there. That was submitted by Rosenberg to the Fuehrer as a complaint.
MAJOR JONES: And this word "cleansed"-does that mean emigration or does that mean murder?
LAMMERS: "Cleanse" means to free the area.
MAJOR JONES: I do not want you to shut this document. I just want you to look at this document because you have denied knowledge that Koch was a murderer. In Paragraph 2 of the report you see this: "I have just received the following report from an old Party comrade who has worked for 9 months in Volhynia and Podolia with a view to preparing to take over a district commission or a main division in the General District of Volhynia and Podolia. This report reads: " 'On orders from the highest quarters, steps were taken to evacuate the whole district of Zuman. Germans and Ukrainians both stated that this was done because the entire wooded area of Zuman was to become a private hunting ground for the Reich Commissioner. In December 1942, when it was already bitterly cold, the evacuation was begun. Hundreds of families were forced to pack all their belongings over night and were then evacuated a distance of over 60 kilometers. Hundreds of people in Zuman and its vicinity were shot down with the aid of an entire police company, because they had communist sympathies. None of the Ukrainians believed this. . .' " Have you not found it, Witness? Because I want you to follow this, you see. Have you found it?
LAMMERS: No, I have not found it yet.
MAJOR JONES: It is very difficult to follow these embarrassing parts of the document, you know.
LAMMERS: Yes, I have found the place.