dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Had Dr. Kubuschok finished his cross-examination?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then would any other of the defendants' counsel wish to examine or cross-examine?
PROFESSOR DOCTOR HERBERT KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht ): Professor Kraus for Dr. Ludinghausen on behalf of the Defendant Von Neurath . I ask your permission to put several questions to the witness. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, at the Munich conferences Hitler, it is alleged, put the following question: "What is to happen if the Czechs are not in agreement with our occupation of the Sudetenland?" Thereupon Daladier answered, "Then we will force them." Is that correct? Goering: This question was actually broached by the Fuehrer during the discussion. Premier Daladier said, in substance, whether with the same words or not, somethihg which corresponds to the sense of this statement. As far as I can still remember fairly exactly, he emphasized that now a decision in that direction had been reached by the great powers for the purpose of maintaining peace, and this peace must not be threatened anew by Czechoslovakia's refusal, otherwise neither England nor France would feel themselves in any way in duty bound to help, if Czechoslovakia did not follow this advice.
DR. KRAUS: Witness, how long have you known Herr Von Neurath? Goering: As far as I recall I saw Herr Von Neurath very briefly when he was the German Ambassador to Denmark in 1919, but only for a short time. Later I met him again just before the seizure of power and spoke to him very briefly, I believe; my closer relationship and acquaintance begins from the time after the seizure of power.
DR. KRAUS: Did you have any closer knowledge of his activities as Ambassador in London? Goering: That is correct. I did know about his work before, because even in former times, that is in 1931 and 1932, before Herr Von Neurath became Foreign Minister, in discussions about the possible formation of a cabinet, we also considered the name of Herr Von Neurath as a candidate, even though he did not belong to the Party. As a basic consideration in this connection his very position as Ambassador to England played the main role, since we, that is, Hitler as well as I, were of the opinion that Herr Von Neurath's relations as Ambassador to the English Government were very good and that Herr Von Neurath could be an important factor in this field -- that of good relations with England -- which was a basic consideration in the Fuehrer's foreign policy.
DR. KRAUS: Then I may assume that Herr Von Neurath had pursued a policy of peace and understanding in London? Goering: Yes, you can assume that exactly.
DR. KRAUS: Yes; and can you tell me if, beyond that, Herr Von Neurath made efforts in his capacity as Foreign Minister as well, to continue this policy of peace and understanding? Goering: When Reich President Von Hindenburg made it a condition, which I have already mentioned, that Herr Von Neurath should become Foreign Minister, the Fuehrer was in full agreement with this condition, because he saw that the task of establishing good relations with England and the West was in good hands. Herr Von Neurath always made every effort in this direction.
DR. KRAUS: I should like to deal with another series of questions. Were you present at the meeting of the Reich Cabinet on 30 January 1937, during which Hitler gave the Golden Party Emblem to those members of the Cabinet who were not members of the Party, among them also Herr Von Neurath? Goering: Yes, I was present.
DR. KRAUS: And do you know that Hitler declared on this occasion that it was purely a distinction such as the conferring of an order, and that the gentlemen concerned did not thereby become Party members and had no obligations toward the Party? Goering: I would not put it just that way. The Fuehrer was speaking spontaneously, since it was the anniversary of the seizure of power, and he said it was his intention in this way to show his confidence in those members of the Reich Cabinet who did not belong to the Party. I believe he used the words, "I should like to ask them to accept this Party Emblem." He said at the time that in his opinion this was a decoration and that he intended, as he actually did later, to develop additional grades of this decoration. The first grade of this decoration was to be the Golden Party Emblem. Then, on the spur of the moment, he stepped up to the various ministers and handed them this emblem. In doing so he neither emphasized that they were thereby to consider themselves members of the Party, nor did he emphasize that they were not Party members. When he came to Herr Von Eltz-Rubenach, this gentleman asked whether he was thereby obliged to stand for the partly anti-clerical tendency of certain Party cixcles, or something to that effect. The Fuehrer hesitated for a minute and said, "Then you do not wish to accept it?" Whereupon Herr Von Eltz said, "I do not wish to say that. I just wish to make a certain reservation." The Fuehrer was taken aback; immediately he turned around and left the cabinet room. In this connection it is not correct, as has been maintained, that Herr Von Eltz resigned voluntarily because of this. I followed the Fuehrer immediately and felt, as did all the other gentlemen, that this incident was an insult to the Fuehrer, since membership in the Party had not been mentioned at all.
DR. KRAUS: In addition, and this is very important, the Fuehrer was already considering a plan to divide the Ministry of Transport and to re-establish the old Post Ministry and to put the railroad expert Dorpmuller into the Ministry of Transport. The Fuehrer had told me this previously and, as he had left it to me to tell Von Eltz about it gradually, in a diplomatic way, I took this opportunity and went to Herr Von Eltz and said: "Your behavior was impossible, and I think the only thing for you to do is to resign at once." He said, "I did not mean it like that," and he was not willing to hand in his resignation right away. I then asked him abruptly to do so by that evening. I also sent State Secretary Meissner to him to say it would be advisable for him to leave the Cabinet,and hand in his resignation immediately, especially in view of -- and then I gave the explanations concerning the post and railroads as I have just given them. That was what happened at that conference with regard to the Golden Party Emblem.
DR. KRAUS: Witness, were you present when Hitler, in the evening of 11 March 1938, told Herr Von Neurath in the Reich Chancellery about the entry of the troops into Austria, and informed him of the reasons for this move, and asked him to inform the Foreign Office accordingly, because he himself had to leave? Goering: I have already mentioned in my remarks about Austria that Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop was not present. Since the Fuehrer had delegated the representation of the Reich to me, I had asked him to ask Herr Von Neurath to put his experience in foreign affairs at my disposal during this time. Thereupon Herr Von Neurath was asked to come to the Reich Chancellery that evening, I believe, and the Fuehrer told him in broad outlines what you have just said. It was to the effect that, if I needed it and requested it, he was to advise me on matters of foreign policy, since the Foreign Minister was not present and I had no experience in answering diplomatic notes, and since it was to be expected that some foreign political action, such as protests and notes, at least, would be taken during the Fuehrer's absence.
DR. KRAUS: Then one is to conclude that Herr Von Neurath was not the deputy of the Foreign Minister but only in his absence was to serve as sort of an adviser to you? Goering: He was not the deputy of the Foreign Minister; that would not at all have been in keeping with his position and his rank. The deputy of the Foreign Minister was the acting State Secretary.
DR. KRAUS: Von Weizsacker? Goering: I believe it was Herr Von Mackensen at that time; he also signed the current correspondence in the absence of the Foreign Minister. Herr Von Neurath was only my adviser in such matters of foreign policy as were expected to come up in connection with the Austrian case.
DR. KRAUS: Do you know of the protest which came from the British Ambassador on 11 March 1938, which was addressed, strangely enough, to Herr Von Neurath and in which the British Ambassador protested against the marching in of German troops? Goering: That is not at all so strange, for on the evening of the marching in of the troops I personally, as I have explained, spoke to the British Ambassador for 2 hours and told him that the Fuehrer was going to Austria the next day; that I would administer the Reich and had for this purpose requested Herr Von Neurath as my foreign political adviser, as Sir Nevile Henderson had already hinted that this would not be tolerated without protests. Thus the British Ambhssador had already received this information from me the evening before. This explains the fact that he turned to Herr Von Neurath, because I had said to him, "If you come around with your old notes of protest, I personally cannot do very much about them."
DR. KRAUS: Did Herr Von Neurath, after the Foreign Minister had formulated the answer to the protest, notify you by telephone of that answer, and did he ask you whether you would sign it as Hitler's deputy? Goering: Yes, of course; I was deputy head of State. He had to inform me of the reply and it was also a matter of course that I should say to him, "You sign," for as deputy head of State I could not sign diplomatic notes.
DR. KRAUS: Thank you.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, how far were the political leaders informed beforehand of the Fuehrer's foreign political intentions? Goering: "Political leaders" is a very comprehensive term. It includes everyone from the Reichsleiter to the Blockleiter or Zellenleiter. Instruction of the entire body of political leaders with regard to matters of foreign policy quite naturally and understandably never took place, and could not take place unless the Fuehrer publicly made known his general foreign political intentions to the entire nation either in the Reichstag or over the radio. The higher officers of the political leaders, for instance, the Reichsleiter or the Gauleiter, were likewise never called together as a group in order to be informed of political intentions which the Fuehrer did not want to announce publicly. He may personally have mentioned his intentions to one or other of the political leaders, who at the same time held another state office, or who was for some other reason in his confidence -- I should first have to think where that might have been the case. He certainly did not do it to any unit or sub-unit. In his speeches to Gauleiter after the events had taken place, he merely referred to these things each time in retrospect and explained and unfolded his political intentions, which he had, however, already realized by then.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
DR. MARTIN HORN (Counsel for Defendant Von Ribbentrop): Witness, do you know to what extent Von Ribbentrop was informed about military plans and intentions in his capacity as Foreign Minister? Goering: I do not know the exact details. In general the same principle applies here too, that only such authorities as were competent, as far as these intentions were concerned, were kept informed, particularly so in the case of military intentions. Just how much the Fuehrer told Herr Von Ribbentrop now and again in conversations about his military plans, I did not know.
DR. HORN: Is it correct that Hitler set down the guiding principles for all policies, including foreign policy? Goering: That is a matter of course. Foreign policy above all was the Fuehrer's very own realm. By that I mean to say that foreign policy on the one hand and the leadership of the Armed Forces on the other hand enlisted the Fuehrer's greatest interest and were his main activity.
DR. HORN: Should I conclude from that that he was interested in the details of foreign policy as well? Goering: He busied himself exceptionally with these details, as I have just stated, and with particularly great interest in both of these fields.
DR. HORN: Did Hitler expressly instruct you to keep secret the memorandum on Poland of 30 August 1939? Goering: He did not expressly instruct me. I do not know whether he knew that I had it in my pocket. But in general he had given such instructions since he had instructed the one who would have had to hand it over, namely, Herr Von Ribbentrop, not to hand it over, so that I actually handed over this memorandum against the express order of the Fuehrer, which constitutes a risk that probably only I -- please do not misunderstand me -- indeed I alone could take and afford.
DR. HORN: You mentioned a few days ago the diversified influence which the various personages had on Hitler. Do you know any facts from which we might conclude that Ribbentrop had not enough influence on Hitler to induce him to change decisions once he had made them? Goering: As far as influence on Hitler, on the Fuehrer, is concerned, that is a problematical subject. I should like first to confine myself to the question of Herr Von Ribbentrop's influence. Herr Von Ribbentrop definitely had no influence in the sense that he could have steered Hitler in any one direction. To what extent arguments of an objective nature may perhaps have definitely influenced the Fuehrer sometimes to do this or that in respect to foreign political aitairs, or to refrain from doing it, or to change it, would have depended entirely on the strength of the arguments and the facts. To what extent that may sometimes have played a role I cannot say, for I was not present at 99 percent of the Fuehrer's conferences with Herr Von Ribbentrop. But Herr Von Ribbentrop had at no time such influence that he could have said, "Do this" or "Do not do it; I consider it a mistake," when the Fuehrer was convinced of the correctness of any matter.
DR. HORN: Do you know facts or observations which might point to the existence of a conspiracy in the highest circles of the government? Goering: Conspiracy may be variously interpreted. Conspiracies naturally never took place in the sense that men secretly came together and discussed extensive plans in darkness and seclusion. As to conspiracy in the sense that the Fuehrer had comprehensive conferences and as a result of these conferences decided upon joint undertakings, one can only talk of conspiracy here to the extentand I beg of you again not to misunderstand me -- that this took place between the Fuehrer and me until, say, 1941. There was no one who could even approach working as closely with the Fuehrer, who was as essentially familiar with his thoughts and who had the same influence as I. Therefore at best only the Fuehrer and I could have conspired. There is definitely no question of the others.
DR. HORN: American war propaganda consistently spoke of Germany's aggressive intentions toward the Western Hemisphere. What do you know about this? Goering: The Western Hemisphere? Do you mean America?
DR. HORN: Yes. Goering: Even if Germany had completely dominated the nations of Europe, between Germany and the American continent there are, as far as I still recall from my geographic knowledge, about 6,000 kilometers of water, I believe. In view of the smallness of the German fleet and the regrettable lack of bombers to cover this distance, which I have already mentioned, there was never any question of a threat against the American continent; on the contrary, we were always afraid of that danger in reverse, and we would have been very glad if it had not been necessary to consider this at all. As far as South America is concerned, I know that we were always accused, by propaganda at least, of economic penetration and attempted domination there. If one considers the financial and commercial possibilities which Germany had before and during the war, and if one compares them with those of Great Britain or America, one can see the untenability of such a statement. With the very little foreign exchange and the tremendous export difficulties which we had, we could never constitute a real danger or be in competition. If that had been the case, the attitude of the South American countries would presumably have been a different one. Not the mark, but only the dollar ruled there.
DR. HORN: Thank you.
DR. SIEMERS: The Prosecution have submitted the diary of General Jodl under Document Number 1809-PS. In this diary there are two entries from the first half of 1940, in regard to which I should like to have your opinion. These two entries concern Russia at a time when Germany and Russia were on friendly terms. I should like to say in advance that the substance of the intentions which are contained in these entries sounds rather fantastic, and that is why I would like to have your opinion as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force. I quote the first entry dated 13 February 1940: The second entry of May 1940 reads as follows, and I quote verbatim: I would like you to tell me what the thoughts were which guided you in these plans as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, and what facts were the basis of those thoughts. Goering: If these entries were made on the basis of a report by Admiral Canaris, who was the chief of foreign intelligence, and if they were entered by Jodl in connection with the special long reconnaissance Rewel Squadron, it is because of the former's connection with this squadron -- to which he himself frequently assigned intelligence or espionage tasks -- that he had heard of my intention to use it -- which was something which I wanted to have kept especially secret. He apparently informed the High Command of the Armed Forces, where this action, or the intended action, met with complete misapprehension and could not be understood. My intention in this connection -- and I had personally ordered it -- was entirely clear. The statement that it was to do reconnaissance work in or in the direction of the Caucasus is not quite correct. It would have been more correct to say in the direction of the Caucasus, Syria, and Turkey. But this mistake may have occurred in the report transmitted by Canaris.
DR. SIEMERS: I had received more and more intelligence reports to the effect that from Asia Minor actions were to be undertaken against the Russian oil fields of the Caucasus -- Baku -- and likewise actions for the purpose of gravely disrupting the oil supply from Romania to Germany. As Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force I was the one chiefly interested in obtaining Romanian oil as well as Caucasian oil, more precisely petroleum and gasoline, on the basis of a trade agreement with Russia, because at that time the refineries were not completed and not working to capacity. A disturbance in either one of these supplying regions would have affected my Air Force very badly. Therefore I had to watch this closely. I anticipated disruption of the oil regions in the Caucasus. I had the agents' report checked by very reliable people and found that in Syria an army was actually formed under General Weygand which had the name of "Orient Army." I was more interested, however, in the concentration of squadrons of aircraft in the Syrian area, not only of French but also English squadrons. As far as I remember I received these reports about the intentions of the French-British air squadrons through agents in Turkey, that is to say, from Turks, because there had been negotiations with Turkey regarding permission to fly over her territory in order to carry out the intention of the English-French air squadrons of suddenly bombing the Baku area and thereby severely damaging the Russian oil fields and eliminating deliveries to Germany. I therefore had to, or rather I was obliged to find out constantly, through long-range reconnaissance flights, the extent to which the airfields in Syria were becoming more active than before. There could be no other reason for massing aircraft there exactly at this time, for it was not a theater of war nor was any threat there on the part of Germany at that moment. On the contrary, it would have been understandable if all British and French aircraft had been needed in England and France themselves.
DR. SIEMERS: If, therefore, my long-range reconnaissance flights established the fact that the airdromes in Syria were being used more than ever, and further confirmed that possibly the airfields in the east of Turkey were being increased, this would have been, and actually was, a confirmation of the alleged intentions. In this case, as soon as I was fully convinced of this, I should have to point out to the Fuehrer that Germany should draw Russia's attention to the danger threatening her. The establishing of listening posts, not in the Caucasus but before the Caucasus, naturally served the same purpose, namely that of setting up secret radio stations along the general line of flight, Syria-Caucasus, Syria-Baku, East Turkey-Baku, one, two or three, in order to find out whether preparatory ffights by the French and English Air Forces were taking place; that is to say, reconnaissance on the oilfields, et cetera , in order to get more information that way also. Since at the time I did not yet have conclusive and final proof in my hands, I kept these things to myself and dealt with them only in the offices responsible to my sector of the Air Force until I could obtain a clear picture. Only later, after the termination of the French campaign, absolute confirmation of these intentions was obtained by the discovery of the secret reports of the French General Staff and of the meetings of the combined Supreme Military Council of England and France, which proved that my information was entirely correct and that a plan for a surprise bombing attack on all the Russian oilfields had been prepared. In the meantime the confirmation of the plan to eliminate the Romanian oilfields, already known to us, was communicated to the Romanian Government and this attack on neutral Romania was then prevented.
DR. SIEMERS: I understood you correctly, did I not, that these plans were made by both England and France? Goering: Yes.
DR. SIEMERS: And that the intelligence you received was to the effect that the attacks on the oilfields were directly aimed at the then neutral Russia and also indirectly at Germany by the cutting off of her oil supply? Goering: Of course.
DR. SIEMERS: Thank you.
HERR BOEHM: Witness, is it true, as the Prosecution maintains that you were ReichsFuehrer of the SA? Goering: I was not ReichsFuehrer of the SA, there never was such a title. In 1923, on 9 November, I was a commander of the SA, which at that time existed only in Bavaria and to a small extent in Wurttemberg.
HERR BOEHM: According to that, how long were you commander of the SA? Goering: I have just told you, until November 1923.
HERR BOEHM: From 1921 on? Goering: From the beginning of 1923.
HERR BOEHM: What was your influence before and after 1923 respectively in regard to the leadership of the SA, the indoctrination of the people, and the giving of orders? Goering: Please repeat the question.
HERR BOEHM: What was your influence before and after 1923 as far as the leadership of the SA, the indoctrination of the SA men, and the issuing of orders were concerned? Goering: From the beginning of 1923 until 9 November 1923 my influence was complete and absolute, that is, I commanded the SA directly. After 1923 I was no longer entitled to have anything to do with the SA itself, nor did I.
HERR BOEHM: How was it before 1923, the relationship before 1923 as well as after 1923? Goering: I beg your pardon?