dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You remember, at Vilna, the old barracks were taken over and were known as the SA Kaserne, the SA Barracks. Did you know that?
JUETTNER: I have never been in Vilna in my life, and I do not know who was working there for the SA or any other office.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know that one of the. groups formed was a group in Vilna?
JUETTNER: No.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It was a very interesting group, but they did not have to do quite as big a job as the SS; however, they killed 10,000 Jews in the autumn of 1941. You say you never heard of that?
JUETTNER: I did not understand that.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I am putting to you is that in September of 1941, 10,000 Jews were killed in Vilna and the people who rounded them up from the ghetto, the people who took them out to be killed, were the SA Detachment in Vilna.
JUETTNER: I deny that quite emphatically. The SA had nothing to do with these matters and the SA did not take part in it. We had no SA in Vilna.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then we will just have a look at this affidavit. Will you look at this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you sign this document that was just put to you-this report?
JUETTNER: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Would you look at Document Number D-964, which is an affidavit by M. Sz1oma Gol. My Lord, that is GB-597. I am so sorry, My Lord, that is Page 55. I beg Your Lordship's pardon. This gentleman says: "I am a Jew and lived in Vilna, Lithuania. Durink the German occupation I was in the Vilna ghetto. The administration of the Vilna ghetto was managed by the SA. The Town Commissioner of Vilna (Stadtkommissar) was an SA officer called Hinkst. The Landkommissar for Vilna was an SA officer called Wolf. The adviser on Jewish questions was an SA officer called Murer." Do you remember an SA officer called Wolf or an SA officer called Hinkst in Lithuania?
JUETTNER: I have never heard either the name Wolf or the name Hinkst and I emphatically deny that we had any SA group in Vilna.
HERR BOEHM: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. These charges which are being alleged against the SA are all so tremendous, and are so obviously unknown to the witness, that I must request that this witness Gol be brought here and examined, in case it is in- tended to make use of this affidavit or its contents. If he is here in Nuremberg, he can be, examined before the Court.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Mr. Gol is here and my friend can ask him any questions that he would like.  He can produce the actual articles taken from the dead bodies of the Jews who were shot.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this man here in Nuremberg?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, yes, he is in Nuremberg.  Of these six affidavits, I have kept four and that covers, I think, the principal allegations.  I have kept Gol, Belg, Sigall and Kibart.  The other two had to go to their work which has been found for them, and, My Lord, I felt, in view of what they already suffered, it's not quite right to keep them all back. However, I kept four and I submit that the Defense has ample opportunity for any cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they all on the same topic?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, no. They deal with Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen, My Lord, three places.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, do you propose to use or to read all of these affidavits now, or to use them for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I was proposing to put the main points of them in for cross-examination and show on what the affidavits are based. I did not mean to read them through. From these affidavits I have selected about three points to read.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. B6hm.
HERR BOEHM: Before these affidavits are read, I should first like to ask that these affidavits be checked as to their authenticity. The document you will receive is Number D-964.
THE PRESIDENT: We are considering your application at the moment that the man should be called for cross-examination. Surely that is sufficient.
HERR BOEHM: No, only provided that this document, this affidavit, which was submitted here, is perfectly genuine and has been signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David has said that the man is here. You can ask the witness if it is true.
HERR BOEHM: I have no reason to introduce a witness, Mr. President, who has not deposed an affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: No one is suggesting that you should introduce him as your witness. Your application is the application which we are now considering, that is, that he should be brought here for cross' examination, but that does not make him your witness.
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I requested that he be examined under the condition that he has actually deposed an affidavit.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The original affidavit is before the witness, and I am told it was sworn to before Major Wurmser. The actual statements which the deponent made before he signed are shown in the original copy.
HERR BOEHM: I am objecting for the reason that my document does not show that it was signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Give us the original. It really would be better, Dr. Böhm, if you would take the trouble to look at the original before you made objections of this sort.
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I did not make any accusations. I only asked you to ascertain whether it is signed, for there is no signature on my document.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in the interest of saving time, would it be sufficient if two of these affidavits were used and two of the witnesses were called for cross-examination? I
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I suggested three, since it covers three towns, Vilna, Kaunas, and Schaulen. I shall willingly restrict myself.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will allow these affidavits to be used in cross-examination provided the three deponents are called for cross-examination. It would be most convenient if they should be called directly after this witness has been cross-examined and re-examined.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see I am in a slight difficulty about Schaulen, because both deponents who had to go are to deal with the Schaulen episode. My Lord, I have a witness ... I am so sorry, it is my fault, I must admit I said Schaulen; it should have been Kaunas. I will do that, My Lord, I will put the facts in the affidavit and I will only use the affidavits in regard to Vilna and Schaulen, and both the deponents are here.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, the Marshal will have those witnesses ready when the evidence of this witness is finished in order that they may be called for cross-examination if Dr. Bbhm wants to question them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, we will do so. They will be here. I want to question the witness here with regard to Vilna.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I see it is now 25 minutes to twelve. Before you do that, we had better recess. [A recess was taken.]
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I have selected three of these witnesses to cover each of the towns: Szloma Gol, who will deal with Vilna; and Kagan, Nvho will deal with Kaunas; and Kibart, who will deal with Schaulen. My Lord, they are out of Court, so that they will not hear the cross-examination, and are available when the time comes.
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I can waive the examination of these witnesses. I have no objection if these affidavits are used, because in this connection I can clarify the facts of the case with the witness Kibart in cross-examination. These people had nothing whatever to do with the SA, and the witness JUETTNER will clear up the matter. They were officials in the Ministry for Eastern Affairs, and they were no more regarded as SA men there than one could regard a soldier in the Wehrmacht, for example, as an SA man once he is a soldier in the Wehrmacht, although he had formerly been in the SA. Therefore, I attach no importance to the examination of these witnesses. I shall waive the examination of these witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then Sir David, we do not think they need be cal led if Dr. B6hni, does not want them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I am of course entirely in Dr. B6hm's hands, -and what the Tribunal approves. I want it known that the Prosecution has no objection to calling them, and that they are ready to give evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: You can use the affidavits.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases. Witness, have you a copy in German of D-964?
JUETTNER: D-964; yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is the affidavit of a Mr. Gol. I have read the first and second paragraphs. If you will look at the third paragraph, it says: "In December 1943, 80 Jews from the ghetto, including four women and myself and my friend Josef Belie were ordered by an SA Sturmfuehrer, whose name I forgot, to live in a large pit some distance from the town. This pit had originally been dug for an underground petrol tank. It was circular, 60 meters in diameter, and 4 meters deep. When we lived in it the top was partially covered with boarding, and there were two wooden rooms partitioned off, also a kitchen and lavatory. We lived there 6 months altogether before we escaped. The pit was guarded by SA guards about whom I give details below." You will see in Paragraph 5 that he says that the "SA men threw chains into the pit, and the Sturmfuehrer ordered the Jewish foremen (for we were a working party) to fasten the chains on us. The chains were fastened round both ankles and round the waist. They weighed 2 kilos each, and we could only take small steps when wearing them. We wore them permanently for 6 months. The SA said that if any man removed the chains he would be hanged. The four women, who worked in the kitchen, were not chained." Then, before we come to the work, I would just like you to look at Paragraph 10, because that describes the guards: "The work of digging up the graves and building the pyres was supervised and guarded by about 80 guards. Of these, over 50 were SA men, in brown uniforms, armed with pistols and daggers and automatic guns (the guns being always cocked and pointed at us). The other 30 guards consisted partly of Lithuanians and partly of SD and SS. In the course of the work the Lithuanian guards themselves were shot, presumably so that they should not say what had been done. The commander of the whole place was the SA officer Murer (the expert on Jewish questions), but he only inspected the work from time to time. The SA officer Legel actually commanded on the spot.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: At night our pit was guarded by 10 or 12 of these guards." Then he says that the guards "hit us and stabbed us" and that he was knocked over a pile of bodies and that they were only allowed to go sick for two days; if they went sick for more than that they were shot. Then he says in Paragraph 12, that "of 76 men in the pit, 11 were shot at work." Now I would like you to look very shortly at Paragraphs 6, 7, 8, and 9 which describe the work. Paragraph 7 says that: "the work consisted of digging up mass graves and piling up bodies on to funeral pyres and burning them. I was engaged in digging up the bodies. My friend Belic was engaged in sawing up and arranging the wood."-Paragraph 8 says-"We dug up altogether 80,000 bodies. I know this because two of the Jews in the pit with us were ordered to keep count of the bodies by the Germans; that was their sole job. The bodies were mixed, Jews, Polish priests, Russian prisoners of war. Amongst those that I dug up I found my own brother. I found his identification papers on him. He had been dead for two years when I dug him up, because I know that he was in a batch of 10,000 Jews from Vilna ghetto who were shot in September 1941." And then he describes the procedure for making a funeral pyre 6f layers of wood and bodies and throwing oil over it and burning it. Are you telling the Tribunal that you never heard of what had gone on in Vilna or that there were any SA personnel concerned in it?
JUETTNER: I have the following statement to make about this. With the guarding of the ghetto...
SIR DAVID MAXWELIFYFE: - First of all, before you make a statement, will you answer my question: Do you say that you never heard of these happenings in Vilna or that the SA were concerned in them?
JUETTNER: I maintain that most decidedly. I heard about them today for the first time. Moreover, I had nothing to do with these things and we had no SA in Lithuania. We had only tried to build up the SA in the former Government General. That consisted of SA candidates and Germans. We did not organize any SA in Lithuania. Neither the SA leadership nor the SA organization ever had anything ~o do with guarding ghettos and, such atrocities; if they did take place, they must be branded as such. But I can well imagine that a misuse of SA uniforms and membership was practised here too, namely, by Lithuanians.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Your explanation is that they have mistaken somebody wearing a brown shirt. Is that your explanation? Probably wearing a swastika on his arm to make it more difficult. You are really telling the Tribunal, who have been sitting here for 9 months listening to what has happened in these territories, that your explanation is that somebody has mistaken other people wearing brown shirts. Is that your explanation?
JUETTNER: It is one of the explanations which I gave before.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I only want to put in-I need not occupy time by putting it to the witness in view of what he said-Document Number D-975 as an additional declaration of Mr. Gol. It will therefore become GB-598, and it explains the procedure by which the gold teeth were taken out of corpses. My Lord, I do not think it is necessary to go into detail because Your Lordship has heard of how that procedure was carried out so much and the normal way for doing it. We will just say that the man Murer personally took the boxes with him. Now I am going to come to Kaunas or Kovno. I want you just to tell me: Do you say that you do not know an SA Brigadefuehrer called Kramer, who was Governor of Kaunas?
JUETTNER: We have not previously mentioned SA Brigadefuehrer Kramer, Mr. Prosecutor. I do know an SA Brigadefuehrer ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We are mentioning him now and I am asking you, do you say or don't you say that you do not know an SA Brigadefuehrer called Kramer, who was Town Governor of Kaunas or Kovno, a very well-known- place?
JUETTNER: Kovno is quite well known to me, I agree with you there. But the name ... I should like to know whether you said Kahmer or Kramer?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Kramer. He was the German Town Governor and an SA Brigadefuehrer... Kramer.
JUETTNER: I know a Brigadefuehrer Kramer. Whether he was the Town Governor of Kovno I do not know.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you know an SA Hauptsturmfuehrer called Jordan?
JUETTNER: No.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And don't you know that the Town Governor's office in Kaunas was exclusively staffed by SA, even the girls in the office belonging to the SA women's section, wearing SA brown shirts with swastika? Do you say that you never heard of that?
JUETTNER: We had no SA in Kaunas. I do not know of any SA offices there, either. If somebody named Kramer, supposed to be an SA leader, was working there, then he was not working as an SA leader. The SA had nothing to do with the whole matter. I should particularly like to emphasize that once more very strongly.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, let me put two more of these names to you. Do you know an SA Brigadefuehrer called Lenzen?
JUETTNER: A Brigadefuehrer Lenzen formerly worked with the Reich Sports Leader. I became acquainted with him there.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know that Lenzen was Commissioner for the Rural District around Kaunas?
JUETTNER: If Lenzen was Commissioner for Rural Districts he was not used there by the SA, as an SA leader, but came within the organization of the Ministry for Eastern Affairs and so was not under the SA, if he was working there.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Do you say that you hadn't an SA section, I don't know whether it would be a company or a smaller unit, guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas? You have told us, you see, that you had these units who were supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories. Are you answering that there was not an SA unit guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas?
JUETTNER: We did not organize any SA units near Kaunas. I cannot say any more than that. We organized SA in the former Government Gdneral, but apart from that we organized no SA in the East except in West Prussia, and in what was formerly Posen. Consequently no SA could have been there.
THE PRESIDENT: For the sake of accuracy, Sir David, I don't think he said they had SA units supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories near Kaunas.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, My Lord, I think "in the East" were the words, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought he said "within the Reich area."
SIR DAVID MAXWELI-FYFE: It was in this report. I will check it. I am so sorry, My Lord, if I have made a mistake. My Lord, what he said was ...
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got it there, Sir David? Referring to the 23rd of June 1941, that is the report, he said, "That is the home country. We had 21 groups guarding prisoners of war in the German Reich area. I mean in what-was Germany before the war. I know nothing of the Baltic Provinces."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I agree entirely with that. Your Lordship will remember that he goes on to say in the report itself, at the top of Page 127, that there were two groups, one at Danzig and another at Posen. Then he said the territory of Upper Silesia was assigned to unit Silesia and the territory of Memel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces (Ostland) unit. That was what I had in mind, that there was a Baltic Province Ostland.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he said in the report...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord, I agree it was not quite the same before he put in the report. My Lord, in view of that I will just briefly indicate the contents of this affidavit to Your Lordship as the witness says that, apart from knowing two of the people, he does not know anything about it. First, the deponent says he lived in the ghetto of Kaunas during the German occupation and that he was on the Jewish Council of the ghetto dealing with statistics and supplies. As representative of the Jews...
THE PRESIDENT: We have not got this document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Oh, haven't you, My Lord, I am so sorry. It is Number D-968, Exhibit GB-599. I am very sorry, My, Lord, it is my fault.
THE PRESIDENT: It is in the book, is it?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is in the book, it is 61.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, he goes on to say: "As representative of the Jews for rations, et cetera, I had to deal directly with the Town Governor's office (SA Hauptsturmfuehrer Jordan's section). The Town Governor's office was exclusively staffed by the SA, even the girls in the office wore brown SA uniforms." Then he says: "The German Town Governor was called Kramer, and he was an SA Brigadefuehrer. Jordan was the adviser on Jewish affairs to Kramer. I know their ranks and that they were in the SA, because they signed the orders which were posted on the ghetto." Then in Paragraph 3 he describes the plundering operation. He says: "It was done exclusively by SA men, Jordan was with them. They all wore brown uniforms." They took their property and shot 27 people and then on 13 September, that is in the middle of the raid, Jordan and SA Sturmfuehrer Repen, with Brigadefuehrer Lenzen, who was Commissioner for the Rural District of Kaunas, standing by, shot three men in his presence. Then he says: "On 21 or 22 September 1941 1 was in a labor detachment. I saw about thirty SA men in uniform conducting a group of some 300 Russian prisoners of war. The Russians were quite exhausted, they could barely walk ... Two collapsed and the SA shot them. The SA were beating them all the time. My labor detachment had to bury these Russians." 'Then, My Lord, Paragraph 7 just shows a piece of what one might call silly brutality, but it was conducted, making the men march out and carry weights for a distance. You will notice that there were about 100 SA men guarding the Jews, armed with automatic pistols. Then, in Paragraph 8: "'On 28 October 1941 there was a big "action" on, in which 10,500 people from the ghetto were shot. The ghetto population was first divided into two groups, those for execution .and those who were allowed to stay. The sorting was supervised in the morning by a man called Rauka, who was, I -think, in the Gestapo or the SD, and later in the day three prominent SA men, Jordan, Kepen, and Pöschl, came to help him. All these SA men were in uniform.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I know the number of those who were shot because my job on the Jewish Council included the rationing, for which we had taken a census of the Jews. A new census was taken after these executions." And next it says how Jordan told him to go and get 20 bodies of the people he had just shot; and Paragraph 10 says that Jordan asked for 500 intellectuals to work on archives; he was told they were not available. "Thereupon the SA (assisted by others In German uniforms which I cannot identify for certain, but I think it was SD) seized and shot 530 people at random. The SA personnel present included Jordan, P6s~chl, and Lenzen." My Lord, that is Kaunas. Now, My Lord, the next town, the other one with which I wanted to deal, is Schaulen, which Your Lordship will find in Document Number D-969 at Page 63 in the same document book. It becomes Exhibit GB-600 and is an affidavit by a deponent, Leib Kibart. Now I just ask you, Witness, did you know an SA Sturmfuehrer called Schroepfer, S-c-h-r-o-e-p-f-e-r?
JUETTNER: I did not know any Sturmfuehrer Schroepfer in the SA.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know an SA Sturmfuehrer ca1led Bub, B-u-b?
JUETTNER: Nor him, either.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know a man in the SA whose rank, unfortunately, I haven't got, called Gewecke, G-e-w-e-c-k-e, who became District Commissioner for this area 130 miles south of Riga?
JUETTNER: Likewise unknown to me. The district commissioners, and all commissioners in general, were not appointed by, the SA but by the Ministry for Eastern Affairs, and we had no influence of any kind thereon.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Kibart says he was in the SA and I am just asking you to try and remember if you know him. There is no doubt that he exists. We have got captured documents signed by him. But I want to know, did you know him, Gewecke?
JUETTNER: I understood you thoroughly, but apparently you misunderstood me previously because you are stating that I did not know Kramer and Lenzen; I merely said...
SIR DAVID MAXVTELL-FYFE: I didn't say that, Witness, and don't let's have any misunderstanding. I was just making quite sure by informing you that there was no doubt that Gewecke was there because his name appears in captured documents, and I wanted you to be quite sure you didn't know him before you gave your answer.  You didn't know him?