dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
VON MANSTEIN: I must say that this order escapes my memory entirely. According to the signature and particularly what is contained in the last part, I must assume that the order is genuine and has been issued by me. Whether it was given on the strength of the Reichenau. order or not I cannot possibly tell you now. But I do want to point out to you that if it says here that the system must be exterminated, then that is extermination of the Bolshevik system, but not the extermination of human beings. I must further point out to you that nowhere is there mention of collaboration with the SD, a collaboration which, because of the lack of knowledge we had of the doings of the SD, was out of the question in this area. I must point out to you the demands which I made of my soldiers-namely, that they must not take the last cow away from the farmers, that they must respect religious customs, that they must respect the other sex and that, on the other hand, they naturally must not be careless of the danger of partisans, as unfortunately the German soldier always was. I point out to you that any wilfulness and any self-seeking is expressly prohibited, also any barbarism, any lack of discipline, and most of all any breach of the honor of a soldier.
COL. TAYLOR: You were asked about the General Reichenau order before the Commissioner, were you not? You were asked, and I read on page-I will have to find the page, Your Honor. I have a typed copy here, Your Honor, without the final page reference. Were you questioned before the Commissioners as follows: "You know the order of General Reichenau in which he stated that there should be no consideration shown to the civilian population? Did you see the order, and did it have any influence whatever on your attitude and that of your troops to the civilian population?" And you answered: "We were informed of this order upon the suggestion of the Fuehrer, but none of the other leaders were of the same opinion as Reichenau, and it was never carried out, especially in my area." You had not forgotten the Reichenau order, had you?
VON MANSTEIN: I had quite forgotten the Reichenau. order until it appeared amongst the documents here, and I have no recollection especially of this order of mine. After all, that is not surprising, because that is a number of years ago, and during these years I have signed hundreds, if not thousands, of orders, and I cannot possibly remember every detail.
COL. TAYLOR: Did you sign a lot of orders like this one? Is that why you have such difficulty remembering it?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I certainly have not signed a lot of orders like this one, but I have signed a lot of other orders. Above all, I had to write and read a large number of reports and if I forgot this order, a fact which I admit, it is not surprising. I only know that this order, at any rate, as opposed to the Reichenau order, very strongly emphasizes the demands which I made for decent behavior on the part of my soldiers. That, after all, is the important point.
COL. TAYLOR: You remember the Reichenau order, and you remember that it was suggested that you pass it down, and the only thing you have forgotten is that you did?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I said that I remembered the Reichenau order only when I came here, when it was shown to me among other documents and when I was before the Commission; also that, try as I may, I did not recollect giving that order. If I had done so, I would most certainly have mentioned it, because the first part of the order is absolutely contrary to my conceptions.
COL. TAYLOR: You think that you wrote the second part and not the first?
VON MANSTEIN: I did not write the order at all myself. Very probably the order was shown to me in draft and then I signed it. If the first part mentions the fight against the system and the extermination of the system as well as the fight against the Jews as the supporters of the partisan movement, in the last analysis it had its proper justification. But all that has nothing to do with the fact that Jews were to be exterminated. They were to be excluded, and the system was to be removed. That is the point that matters.
COL. TAYLOR: I think you told the Tribunal a few minutes ago that you did not even know that Jews were likely to be opposed to the new administration. It looks as if you very definitely wrote that for the attention of your soldiers, doesn't it?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I did not know that, and this order that Jews were to be exterminated cannot possibly recall it to my memory because it does not mention a word that the Jews were to be exterminated. It merely says that the system is to be exterminated.
COL. TAYLOR: I call your attention to the paragraph: "The soldier must appreciate the necessity for harsh punishment of Jewry, the spiritual supporters of the Bolshevist terror. This is also necessary in order to nip in the bud all uprisings, which are mostly plotted by Jews." Now, I ask you, Witness, the Einsatzkommandos could not have liquidated Jews without the soldiers knowing something about it, could they? Is that true?
VON MANSTEIN: That is perfectly possible, because as Ohlendorf has described it, the shootings of the Jews were camouflaged as "resettlement." The Jews were taken to desolate places and were shot and buried there, so that it is quite certain that the commanding authorities had no knowledge of that. Naturally, it is possible that some soldier or other, quite by accident, may have seen such an execution, and there is in fact evidence of it. I remember in the Russian indictment the description by an engineer who was present during such a shooting, I believe in the Ukraine in the vicinity of Shitomir or Rovno, and described it in most horrible terms. One can only ask why that man did not report it to the command post. The answer is that the fear of the SS was such that this man, instead of reporting this dirty business, kept it to himself and now comes out with it. At that time-it was not in my area, but, somewhere else-had he gone to some high military command post and described these events, then I am convinced that the commander in question would have intervened; and then, of course, we would also have heard of it. But the fact is that we did not hear about it.
COL. TAYLOR: One more question on this subject, Your Honor. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, isn't it true that this order is very carefully drawn so that the troops would understand and, shall we say, sympathize with what the Einsatzkommandos were doing in the way of mass extermination of Jews?
VON MANSTEIN: You mean my order?
COL. TAYLOR: Yes.
VON MANSTEIN: No. There can be no question that I at any time urged my troops, even between the lines, to co-operate in such methods. How could I have concluded by stressing the soldier's honor?
COL. TAYLOR: My Lord, the Prosecution has no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now. [The Tribunal adjourned until 12 August 1946 at 1000 hours.]
DR.FRITZ SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant Funk): Mr. Pres-ident, I beg to be granted permission to submit to the Tribunal an urgent application on behalf of the Defendant Funk. On Monday, 5 August 1946, that is to say a week ago today, the Prosecution submitted an affidavit of the former SS Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, Document Number'4045-PS, alleging certain connections between the Defendant Funk and the SS, particularly with reference to the so-called "gold deposits" of the SS in the Reichsbank; I was unable immediately to object to the use of this affidavit during the session of last Monday since I was absent on that day because of illness. I had reported my absence in the appropriate manner to the General Secretary. On the same day, 5 August, Dr. Nelte, in an application to the Tribunal on my behalf, asked for permission to interrogate the witness Oswald Pohl in prison in order to obtain an affidavit from him. On 7 August 1946 1 myself repeated that application, asking at the same time for permission to call the witness Oswald Pohl for cross-examination, and also to recall the Defendant Funk himself to the witness stand to VON RUNDSTEDT: In our opinion, or in the opinion of the memorandum, the German Army was in no position. whatever to wage give testimony with reference to these new accusations. Since the submission of these applications of mine the SS judges Dr. Reinecke and Dr. Morgen were heard as witnesses for the SS here in Court. Both of these witnesses have raised the gravest accusations against Oswald Pohl, although he was their SS comrade. The testimonies of these two witnesses, Dr. Reinecke and Dr. Morgen, have furnished proof that the former Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, a witness of the Prosecution, first ...
THE PRESIDENT (Lord Justice Sir Geoffrey Lawrence): Are you applying to cross-examine Pohl or what?
DR. SAUTER: No. If you will permit me, Mr. President, I shall in a moment give you the reason why I do not wish to do so. I have just said that the examination of the witnesses Dr. Reinecke and Dr. Morgen has furnished proof, first, that this witness of the Prosecution is a millionfold murderer; secondly, that he was the head of that clique of criminals which carried out the atrocities in concentration camps; thirdly, that Pohl, by every means at his disposal, attempted to prevent the discovery of these atrocities and even committed new murders for this purpose. All that has been ascertained from the testimony given under oath by the witnesses Dr. Morgen and Dr. Reinecke. Under these circumstances, Gentlemen of the Tribunal, the defense of the Defendant Funk refuses to employ such a monster as a means of evidence. Therefore, as counsel for the Defendant Funk, I desist from calling this witness of the Prosecution, Oswald Pohl, to the witness stand, because testimony coming from a man who murdered millions of innocent people ...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, I understand that you are not making an application of any sort now; you are making what is in the nature of a ...
DR. SAUTER: No, on the contrary, I refrain from doing so.
THE PRESIDENT: I see.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I beg to have your permission to make another application. I said that the testimony of a man who murdered millions of innocent people, who made a dirty business out of murdering them, is in our conception completely without value for establishing the truth.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that this is an inappropriate time at which to make a protest of this sort, which is in the nature of an argument. If you are making an application, you can make an application. If you want to make a protest, you must make it later when the case for the organizations is at an end.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I say the ~ following: We are now near the end of the submission of evidence, and I do not think that I can wait with this application until after the end of the Trial; the application which I was going to make must be made now, so that the Tribunal will receive it in good time.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, if you would only come to your application we should be glad to hear it.
DR. SAUTER: Very well, Mr. President, I will do so at once. I herewith apply that the Tribunal decide, first, that the affi-davit of Oswald Pohl, dated 15 July 1946, namely, Document Number 4045-PS, should not be admitted in evidence against the Defendant Walter Funk, and, secondly, that that part of the con-tents of the affidavit of Oswald Pohl, Document 4045-PS, which has reference to the Defendant Funk, should be stricken from the record of the session of 5 August 1946. Furthermore, as an additional application and as a precautionary measure, I beg permission to apply for the Defendant Walter Funk to be recalled to the witness stand in order to give him an oppor-tunity to express himself on these completely new, assertions of Oswald Pohl. Mr. President, I submitted this application to the General Sec-retary in writing this morning, but I do not know when the Language Division will pass it on to you. I' have therefore con-sidered it necessary to ask your permission to make this application orally during the proceedings in order to avoid being told that I should have done so in good time here during the session, but had failed to do it. That is the application, Mr. President, which I beg to make.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to hear the Prose-cution on this application.
DR. ROBERT M. W. KEMPNER (Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States): May I reserve our answer until I have an occasion to talk to the chief prosecutor, Mr. Dodd?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. KEMPNER: I would like to state that even murderers some-times tell the truth.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution wish to cross-examine the witness any further?
MAJOR GENERAL G. A. ALEXANDROV (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Witness, I have two additional questions to ask you, both connected with the activities of the Einsatzgruppe D, You stated here that you exclude the possibility of your army group having participated in the shooting which was carried out by this group. Did you not know that the watches taken from those who were shot were sent to the Army, according to the order of the High Command?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I knew nothing about that. As far as the watches are concerned, the army administration officer on one occasion reported to me, as far as I remember, that he had procured a large consignment of watches from Germany. He showed me one of these watches; it was a completely new watch made in Germany. He wanted to issue these watches to the troops. I do not remember that confiscated watches were ever issued, and in no event have I heard of watches belonging to Jews who had been shot.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And these watches were used for the supply of the German army, is that right?
VON MANSTEIN: This consignment of watches from Germany, yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But you also spoke about watches which belonged to the Jews who were shot. That is the way I understood you. Is that correct?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I did not say that. The subject was not mentioned at all. I only said that the army administration officer reported to me about a consignment of German watches. That is the only thing I can remember with regard to watches. That he could have spoken of watches belonging to Jews who had been shot is completely out of the question.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Very well. Did you know that in Niko-laiev and Simferopol the executions were attended by represent-atives of the army command?
VON MANSTEIN: No.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Do you know that these facts were brought out here in Court by the witness Ohlendorf? Do you think that Ohlendorf testified falsely here when relating these facts?
VON MANSTEIN: I know Ohlendorf's testimony and I remem-ber that he said that soldiers had participated in executions near Simferopol. But he also said that he did not know for certain what soldiers they were. He thought they were probably mostly sub-sidiary, technical units, that is, not regular troops of my army. In any event, while I was in the Crimea I never heard that any soldier participated in the execution of Jews.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like you to answer my question. Do you call Ohlendorf's testimony false or do you consider it correct?
VON MANSTEIN: I assume that he made a mistake. At any rate, I am quite certain that regular units of my army did not participate in these executions of Jews. What he means by sub-sidiary technical units, I do not know.
GEMALEXANDROV: He had in mind the troops of the 11th Army, which you were commanding. Now I am asking you this. Did you know that over 195,000 persons, inhabitants of Kiev, were exterminated by the German Army and the German Police, including over 100,000 people who were put to death in Babye Yar alone?
VON MANSTEIN: I heard of this for the first time from the document submitted by the Russian Prosecution.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But you were aware of this type of mass extermination of the civilian population?
VON MANSTEIN: No, I did not know that, and at the time when these executions apparently took place Kiev did not belong to my sector.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Had you knowledge of the OKW decree transmitted in August 1941 by Quartermaster General Wagner, forbidding the feeding of Soviet prisoners of war from Army supplies? Did not this decree result in mass starvation among Soviet prisoners of war?
VON MANSTEIN: I do not recall that order. In August 1941, I was the commanding general of an armored corps far ahead of the front, and I could not even have received that order. What is more, I cannot imagine that the order was given in that form, because at least in my area we always supplied food to the prisoners, and I do not believe therefore that in my area any prisoners died of starvation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But you yourself admit that there was a tremendous mortality rate from starvation among the prisoners of war. You admitted so yourself here yesterday, did you not?
VON MANSTEIN: I did not say that that was so in my army, but that I could see from the documents of , the Prosecution that after the large battles of encirclement in the area of Army Group Center, in which hundreds of thousands of prisoners were taken, many apparently died from starvation, first, because they were half-starved when they emerged from the pockets, and secondly, because no army was in a position to take over the feeding and care of, let us say, half a million prisoners arriving quite suddenly. This naturally resulted in difficulties which in view of the physical con-dition of the Russian soldiers when they arrived very probably led to a large number of deaths. But when I said this before, I was referring to the prisoners taken in the battles of encirclement and not those in my area.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is not necessary to give such detailed replies to my questions. Would you kindly be more brief? Did you know of the operation called "Krimhild"?
VON MANSTEIN: The code name "Krimhild" for an operation is at the moment meaningless to me, nor do I know whether I ever heard it. Perhaps you can tell me when and what this is supposed to have been; then possibly I can recall it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will help you. This operation provided for the transfer of German troops from the Kuban district to the Crimea in connection with the advance and the pressure of the Red Army. A special decree from Hitler was therefore issued and sent to all headquarters.
VON MANSTEIN: I did not quite understand that. Do you mean the transfer of the army from the Crimea to the Kuban district or the retreat from the Kuban district to the Crimea?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The transfer, the retreat of German forces from the Kuban district to the Crimea.
VON MANSTEIN: I cannot say anything about that; I do not know details about it, because that was the area of Army Group Kleist and not my area.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And where was your army at the time?
VON MANSTEIN: My army group was in the Southern Ukraine at the time. The southern border was evidently near Rostov.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The retreat from the Kuban district was effected in connection with the army group in the southern sector of the front. You were handed this decree from Hitler; maybe you will be able to recall something in this connection. I would like to draw your attention to only one particular point in this decree. [A document was handed to the witness.] Do you remember this decree?
VON MANSTEIN: I must look at it more closely for a moment.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: If you please.
VON MANSTEIN: I can no longer tell you today whether or not I received a copy of this order; actually, it only concerns Army Group A. It is possible that I did receive a copy, but I can no longer remember. At any rate, I had nothing to do with it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This decree was sent to all headquarters, but that is not the point. I would like you to find the second paragraph of that decree which is entitled "Destructive Measures During Evacuations"; and please look at point "g" of that section; quoting: "The enemy must take over completely useless and un-inhabitable waste territory where mine detonations will continue to,occur for months." Have you read that passage?
VON MANSTEIN: Yes.
GEN.ALEXANDROV: Now I am asking you: Was this decree, too, motivated in your opinion entirely by military considerations?
VON MANSTEIN: Yes, in my opinion, it was issued for purely military reasons; namely, because Hitler-as I know-wanted to free as many of the forces in the Kuban as possible in order to use them in other parts of the Eastern Front. He wanted to leave only a minimum of forces for the defense of the Crimea, and that of course was only feasible if the danger of a Russian attack coming from the Kuban could, if possible, be excluded for a lengthy period or at least made very difficult; and probably for that reason, these orders for destruction were issued, and in points a, b, c, d, e, and f, they do in fact only deal with objects which are of military im-portance; in other words roads, bridges, railroads, narrow-gauge railroads, corduroy roads, oil installations ...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I know this decree, Witness, and you do not have to repeat it; I have it before me. I merely asked you to look at point "g" which does not mention roads and bridges and oil wells but deals generally with reducing the territory of the enemy to complete waste so that it would not be usable for months to come. That is the subject here. I *am asking you as a soldier-since you call yourself one-do you approve of such a decree? Was it prompted entirely by military considerations? Please answer my question.
VON MANSTEIN: Yes, I am convinced that the order was given only for military reasons; and I am equally convinced that letter IV' means territory completely useless for the military purposes of war. I do not believe, therefore, that the purpose here was to lay waste the land and to, let us say, exterminate the population, but that the reason was a military reason in that the land was to be rendered useless for the continuation of military operations; that is what I believe.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It states here clearly enough what was meant. The interpretation is a matter of opinion. I shall pass to the next question. Were you aware that in May 1944 a special conference was held at Sonthofen?
THE PRESIDENT: Are you passing from that document?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am passing to another question, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: I asked you if you were passing from the document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should put to him Paragraph 3 C.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will. Please, Witness, look at Section 3 of the decree, Point c. I shall read it into the record: "For this task ruthless conscription of the civilian population uninfluenced by any false leniency, the speedy commence-ment of work, and the establishment of construction bat-talions, including female construction battalions , must be secured." Do you consider this method of utilizing the civilian population, including the female population, as a method necessitated by military considerations?
VON MANSTEIN: As I see it, I do not doubt at all that it was necessary from a military standpoint; whether or not it was nice from a humane point of view, is another question. But I must point out that the use of the civilian population, including the women, was something we learned from the Soviet Union, which did just that to a large extent; otherwise the provision of Russian anti-tank ditches many kilometers long would not have been possible in a few days.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, is it your contention that it is in accordance with the laws of war to turn the females of a country into a construction battalion for the purpose of your army?
VON MANSTEIN: I am not absolutely certain at the moment whether that is in accordance with the laws of war of 1939. That in this war international law was widely trespassed against in many cases is an established fact. That the use of labor, including female labor, is one of the rights of an occupying power, is, I should think, a fact.