dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now I want you to look at a record of one of Admiral Doenitz' visits-My Lord, this is D-863; it is a new document and becomes Exhibit GB-456. ) Now that is a record of a visit to the Fuehrer's headquarters on 28 and 29 of August 1943. You were not there yourself, but your immediate superior Vice Admiral-Meisel accompanied Admiral Doenitz, and the names of the Naval Delegation are set out at the top of the page: Admiral Doenitz, Vice Admiral Meisel, Kapitan zur See Rehm, et cetera. And your program as set out was: After your arrival, at 1130, conversation with Commander-in-Chief Navy, Commander-in-Chief Luftwaffe; 1300, situation conference with the Fuehrer, closing with a further conversation between the Commanderin-Chief Navy and the Commander-in-Chief Luftwaffe; then at 1600 the Commander-in-Chief Navy left. After that Admiral Meisel had a conversation with Ambassador Ritter of the Foreign Office. Then a conversation with General Jodl, an evening conference with the Fuehrer, and then at midnight a conference with Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler. On the next day the usual conference with the Fuehrer; then a conference with the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force. And then he left. Now, is that a fair sample of what went on whenever Admiral Doenitz visited; that he had conversations, various conferences with other officials?
WAGNER: That is a typical example of a visit of the Grossadmiral at the headquarters, insofar as he participated only in situation conferences with the Fuehrer, and in addition he had military discussions with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And that shows, does it not, the whole business of government being carried on at the Fuehrer's headquarters?
WAGNER: No, not at all. I have already said the Grossadmiral only participated at the situation conference, that is, the military situation conference with the Fuehrer and beyond that one or even two discussions with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And with General Jodl or Field Marshal Keitel, somebody from the Foreign Office, and so on?
WAGNER: Otherwise the Grossadmiral had no discussions of any sort, as can be seen from the document, for on 28 August at 1600 hours he returned by air. The other discussions were discussions of the Chief of Staff of the SKL, the. . .
COL. PHILLIMORE: But I was putting it to you that this was a typical visit. If Admiral Doenitz had not left, he would have had these other conversations and not Admiral Meisel, is that not right?
WAGNER: No, not at all. The Chief of Staff of the SKL very rarely had the opportunity of coming to headquarters; and according to the record here, he obviously used his opportunity to contact a few of the leading...
COL. PHILLIMORE: I do not want to waste time with it. I suggest to you that when Admiral Doenitz went there he normally saw many other ministers and conversed with them on any business affecting the Navy.
WAGNER: Naturally, the Admiral discussed all questions affecting the Navy with those who were concerned with them.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to ask you one or two questions on the minutes with regard to the Geneva Convention-that is C-158, GB-209, Page 69 of the English Prosecution's document book, or Page 102 of the German. Will you look at Page 102. Now you, as you told us yesterday, initialed those minutes, did you not; and a copy was marked to you, is that not right?
WAGNER: Yes, I signed these minutes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes; were they accurate?
WAGNER: They contained salient points about the things which had happened at headquarters.
COL. PHILLIMORE: They were an accurate record, were they?
WAGNER: Undoubtedly I believed that things had taken place as they are recorded here.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, did you agree with Admiral Doenitz' advice that it would be better to carry out the measures considered necessary without warning and at all costs to save face with the outer world? Did you agree with that?
WAGNER: I already explained yesterday, clearly and unequivocally, how I interpreted this sentence which was formulated by me; and I have nothing to add to that statement. In the sense which I stated yesterday, I agree completely.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And the step which Hitler wanted to take was to put prisoners of war in the bombed towns, was it not? Was that not the breach of the Convention that he wanted to make?
WAGNER: No, it was the renunciation of all the Geneva agreements; not only the agreement about prisoners of war, but also the agreement on hospitals ships, the Red Cross agreement, and other agreements which had been made at Geneva.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Then what were the measures considered necessary which could be taken without warning? Just look at that sentence.
WAGNER: I do not understand that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Look at the last sentence, "It would be better to carry out the measures considered necessary." What were those measures?
WAGNER: They were not discussed at all.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you see any difference between the advice which Admiral Doenitz was giving them and the advice which you described as the rather romantic ideas of a young expert on the document about sinking without warning at night? Let me put it to you; what the naval officer said on the Document C-191 was: "Sink without warning. Do not give written permission. Say it was a mistake for an armed merchant cruiser..." We have Admiral Doenitz saying, "Do not break the rules, tell no one about it and at all costs save face with the world." Do you see any difference?
WAGNER: I already testified yesterday that the difference is very great. Admiral Doenitz opposed the renunciation of the Geneva Convention and said that even if measures to intimidate deserters or counter measures against bombing attacks on cities were to be taken, the Geneva Convention should not be renounced in any case.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to put to you a few questions about prisoners of war. So far as naval prisoners of war were concerned, they remained in the custody of the Navy, did they not?
WAGNER: I am not informed about the organization of prisoner-of-war camps. According to my recollection they were first put into a naval transit camp. Then they were sent to other camps; but I do not know whether these camps were under the jurisdiction of the Navy or the OKW.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Have you not seen the defense documents about the Camp Marlag telling us how well they were treated? Have you not seen them?
WAGNER: No.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, naval prisoners, when they were captured by your forces, their capture was reported to the naval war staff, was it not?
WAGNER: Such captures were, in general, reported as part of the situation reports.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, do you remember the Commando Order of 18 October 1942?
WAGNER: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You actually signed the order passing that Fuehrer Order on to commands, did you not?
WAGNER: Yes.
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the document is C-179, and that was put in as United States Exhibit 543 (USA-543). It is in that bundle that Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe handed to the Tribunal when cross-examining the defendant. I think it is either the last or very near to the last document in the bundle. [Turning to the witness.] Did you approve of that order?
WAGNER: I regretted that one had to resort to this order, but in the first paragraph the reasons for it are set forth so clearly that I had to recognize its justification.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You knew what handing over to the SD meant, did you not? You knew that meant shooting?
WAGNER: No, that could have meant a lot of things.
COL. PHILLIMORE: What did you think it meant?
WAGNER: It could have meant that the people were interrogated for the counterintelligence; it could have meant that they were to be kept imprisoned under more severe conditions, and finally it could have meant that they might be shot.
COL. PHILLIMORE: But you had no doubt that it meant that they might be shot, had you?
WAGNER: The possibility that they might be shot undoubtedly existed.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, and did that occur to you when you signed the order sending it on to commanders?
WAGNER: I would like to refer to Paragraph 1 of this order, where it...
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you mind answering the question? Did it occur to you that they might be shot when you signed the order sending it on to commanders?
WAGNER: Yes, the possibility was clear to me.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, the witness was asked whether he approved of this order. I do not think that Colonel Phillimore can cut off the witness' answer by saying that he may not refer to Paragraph 1 of the order. I believe that Paragraph 1 -of the order is of decisive importance for this witness. Mr. President, the witness Admiral Wagner...
THE PRESIDENT: You have an opportunity of re-examining the witness.
DR. SIEMERS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then why do you interrupt?
DR. SIEMERS: Because Colonel Phillimore has interrupted the answer of the witness and I believe that even in cross-examination the answer of the witness must be at least heard.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal does not agree with you.
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I understood him to have already made some point that the defendant made once. I only interrupted him when he sought to make it again. [Turning to the witness.] I put my question once again. When you signed the order sending this document on to lower commanders, did it occur to you then that these men would probably be shot?
WAGNER: The possibility that these people who were turned over to the SD might be shot was clear to me.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Was it also . . .
WAGNER: I have not finished yet. But only those people who had not been captured by the Wehrmacht were to be handed over to the SD.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Did it also occur to you that they would be shot without trial?
WAGNER: Yes, that can be concluded from the order.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And what do you mean by saying that it only referred to those not captured by the Wehrmacht? Would you look at Paragraph 3. "From now on all enemies on so-called Commando missions in Europe or Africa, challenged by German troops, even if they are to all appearances soldiers in uniform or demolition troops, whether armed or unarmed, in battle or in flight, are to be slaughtered to the last man. It does not make any difference whether they landed from ships or airplanes for their actions or whether they were dropped by parachutes. Even if these individuals when found should apparently seem to give themselves up, no pardon is to be granted them on principle. In each individual case full information is to be sent to the OKW for publication in the OKW communique." Are you saying it did not refer to men captured by the military forces?
WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that statement. There is nothing in the entire paragraph which says these men who were captured by the Wehrmacht were to be turned over to the SD. That was the question.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, read on in the last paragraph. "If individual members of such Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs, et cetera, fall into the hands of the military forces by some other means, for example through the Police in occupied territories, they are to be handed over immediately to the SD."
WAGNER: Yes. It is expressly stated here that only those people are to be turned over to the SD who are not captured by the Wehrmacht but by the Police; in that case the Wehrmacht could not take them over.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Indeed it is not. That capture by the Police is given as one possible instance. But you know, you know in practice, do you not, that there were several instances where Commandos were captured by the Navy and handed over to the SD under this order? Do you not know that?
WAGNER: No.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, let me just remind you. Would you look at Document 512-PS. That is also in that bundle, My Lord, as United States Exhibit 546 (USA-546). It is the second document. According to the last sentence of the Fuehrer Order of 18 October: "Individual saboteurs can be spared for the time being in order to keep them for interrogation. Importance of this measure was proven in the cases of Glomfjord, the two-man torpedo at Trondheim, and the glider plane at Stavanger, where interrogations resulted in valuable knowledge of enemy intentions." And then it goes on to another case, the case of the Geronde. Do you say that you do not remember the two-man torpedo attack on the Tirpitz in Trondheim Fjord?
WAGNER: No, no. I am not asserting that I do not remember it. I do remember it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Did you not see in the Wehrmacht communique after that attack what had happened to the man who was captured?
WAGNER: I cannot recall it at the moment.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Let me just remind you. One man was captured, Robert Paul Evans, just as he was getting across the Swedish border, and he was-that attack took place in October 1942 -he was executed in January 1943, on 19 January 1943. My Lord, the reference to that might be convenient; it is Document UK-57, which was put in as Exhibit GB-64. [Turning to the witness.] Do you say that you do not remember seeing any report of his capture or of his shooting or of his interrogation?
WAGNER: No, I believe I remember that, but this man . . .
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now what do you remember? Just tell us what you remember. Do you remember seeing his capture reported?
WAGNER: I no longer know that. I remember there was a report that a considerable time after the attack on the Tirpitz a man was captured, but to my knowledge not by the Navy.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Would you look at the Document D-864, a sworn statement. My Lord, through some error I am afraid I have not got it here. May I just put the facts, and if necessary put in the document if I can produce it in time. [Turning to the witness.] I suggest to you that Robert Paul Evans, after his capture, was personally interrogated by the Commander-in-Chief, Navy, of the Norwegian North Coast. Do you say you know nothing of that?
WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that I do not remember it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You see, this was the first two-man torpedo attack by the British Navy against the German naval forces, was it not? That is so, is it not?
WAGNER: Yes, that is possible.
COL. PHILLIMORE: No, but you must know that, do you not? You were Chief of Staff Operations, at the time.
WAGNER: I believe it was the first time.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that the results of that important interrogation were not reported to you in the naval war staff?
WAGNER: They were certainly reported, but nevertheless I cannot remember that the Commanding Admiral in Norway actually conducted this interrogation.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you see a report by that admiral?
WAGNER: I do not know where it originated, but I am certain I saw a report of that kind. \
COL. PHILLIMORE: Was it clear to you that that report was based on interrogation?
WAGNER: Yes, I think so.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And you say you did not know that this man Evans, some two months after his capture, was taken out and shot under the Fuehrer order?
WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that I do not remember that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: I will put you another instance. Do you remember the Bordeaux incident in December 1942? That is 526-PS, My Lord. That is also in the bundle. It was originally put in as United States Exhibit 502 (USA-502). [Turning to the witness.] I am sorry; it is the Toftefjord incident I am putting to you, 526-PS. Do you remember this incident in Toftefjord in March 1943?
WAGNER: I do remember that about this time an enemy cutter was seized in a Norwegian fjord. .
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. And did you not see in the Wehrmacht communique "Fuehrer Order executed"?
WAGNER: If it said so in the Wehrmacht communique then I must have read it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Have you any doubt that you knew that the men captured in that attack were shot, and that you knew it at the time?
WAGNER: Apparently he was shot while being captured.
COL. PHILLIMORE: If you look at the document: "Enemy cutter engaged. Cutter blown up by the enemy. Crew, 2 dead men, 10 prisoners." Then look down: "Fuehrer Order executed by SD." That means those 10 men were shot, does it not?
WAGNER: It must mean that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Now I just put to you the document that I referred to on the Trondheim episode, D-864. This is an affidavit by a man who was in charge of the SD at Bergen and later at Trondheim, and it is the second paragraph: "I received the order by teletype letter or radiogram from the Commander of the Security Police and the SD, Oslo, to transfer Evans from Trondheim Missions Hotel to the BdS, Oslo. "I cannot say who signed the radiogram or the teletype letter from Oslo. I am not sure to whom I transmitted the order, but I think it was to Hauptsturmfuehrer Hollack. I know that the Commanding Admiral of the Norwegian Northern Coast had interrogated Evans himself." And then he goes on to deal with Evans' clothing. I put it to you once again: Do you say that you did not know from the Admiral, Northern Coast himself that he had interrogated this man?
WAGNER: Yes, I am asserting that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, I will take you to one more incident which you knew about, as is shown by your own war diary. Would you look at the Document D-658. My Lord, this document was put in as GB-229. [Turning to the witness.] Now, that is an extract from the SKL War Diary, is it not?
WAGNER: Let me examine it first. I do not have the impression that . . .
COL. PHILLIMORE: You said yesterday that it was from the war diary of the Naval Commander, West France, but I think that was a mistake, was it not?
WAGNER: I did not make any statement yesterday on the origin of the war diary.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Just read the first sentence. I think it shows clearly it was the SKL War Diary. "9 December 1942. The Naval Commander, West France, reports"-and then it sets out the incident. And then, the third sentence: "The Naval Commander, West France, has ordered that both soldiers be shot immediately for attempted sabotage if their interrogation, which has been begun, confirms what has so far been discovered; their execution has, however, been postponed in order to obtain more information. "According to a Wehrmacht report"-I think that is a mistranslation; it should be "According to the Wehrmacht communique"-"both soldiers had meanwhile been shot. Lee measure would be in accordance with the Fuehrer's special order, but is nevertheless something new in international law, since the soldiers were in uniform." That is from the SKL War Diary, is it not?
WAGNER: I do not think that this is the War Diary of the SKL; but rather it would seem to be the war diary of the Naval Group Command, West, or the Commanding Admiral in France.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, I will get the original here and clear the matter up later, but I suggest to you that this is the SKL War Diary, which at the time...
WAGNER: I cannot recognize that assertion until it is proved by the original.
COL. PHILLIMORE: And I suggest to you that you, who were Chief of Staff Operations at the time, must have been fully aware of that incident. Do you deny that?
WAGNER: I deny-I maintain that I do not remember that affair.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that a matter of that sort would not be reported to you?
WAGNER: I have been told here that the order to shoot these people was obtained from headquarters directly by the SD.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, finally, I put to you the incident of the capture of the seven seamen, six of the Norwegian Navy and one of the Royal Navy, at Ulven near Bergen in July 1943. That is the document D-649 in the Prosecution document book, GB-208. Do you remember this incident? Do you remember the capture of these seven men by Admiral Von Schrader with his two task forces?
WAGNER: I saw this paper while I was being interrogated, and that is why I remember it.
COL. PHILLIMORE: But do you remember the incident?
WAGNER: No, not from my personal recollection.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You were still Chief of Staff Operations.
THE PRESIDENT: Which page?
COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is Page 67 of the English document book, Page 100 in the German. [Turning to the witness.] Do you say that as Chief of Staff Operations you do not remember any of these incidents?
WAGNER: Yes, I assert and maintain what I have already said about this.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Did not your, operational-did your commanders not report when they captured an enemy Commando?
WAGNER: I must assume that those things were also reported in the situation reports.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, you are really suggesting that you have forgotten all about these incidents now?
WAGNER: In all my testimony I have strictly adhered to what I personally remember.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you know what happened to these men? You know they were captured in uniform, do you not? There was a naval officer with gold braid around his arm. That is a badge you use in the German Navy, is it not?
WAGNER: I have already said that I do not recall this affair.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, let me just tell you and remind you. After interrogation by naval officers and officers of the SD, both of whom recommended prisoner-of-war treatment, these men were handed over by the Navy to the SD for shooting. They were taken to a concentration camp, and at 4 o'clock in the morning they were led out one by one, blindfolded, fettered, not told they were going to be shot, and shot one by one on the rifle range. Do you know that?
WAGNER: No.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you know that is what handing over to the SD meant?
WAGNER: I have already said that handing over to the SD implied several possibilities.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you know that then their bodies were sunk in the fjord with charges attached, and destroyed, as it says in the document, "in the usual way"-Paragraph 10 of the affidavit- and their belongings in the concentration camp were burned?
WAGNER: No, I do not know that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. A further point: Do you remember that in March or April 1945, at the very end of the war, do you remember that this order, the Fuehrer Order, was cancelled by Keitel? That is Paragraph 11 of the affidavit, My Lord. Do you remember that? Just read it.
WAGNER: Yes, I have heard of that.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. You thought you were losing the war by then, and you had better cancel the Commando Order, is that not the fact?
WAGNER: I do not know for what reasons the OKW rescinded orders.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Is not this right: You did not worry about this order in 1942 when you thought you were winning the war, but when you found you were losing it, you began to worry about international law. Is not that what happened?
WAGNER: It is absolutely impossible for me to investigate order. This paragraph of the Commando Order states clearly and distinctly that these Commandos had orders-that these Commandos were composed partly of criminal elements of the occupied territories-that they had orders to kill prisoners whom they found a burden, that other Commandos had orders to kill all captives; and that orders to this effect had fallen into our hands.
COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you ever make any inquiries to see whether that was true?
WAGNER: It is absolutely impossible for me to investigate official information which I receive from my superiors.
COL. PHILLIMORE: You were Chief of Staff Operations; you received every report on the Commando raids, did you not?
WAGNER: I gave detailed evidence in each individual case, but I cannot make a general statement.