dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Number 14, President Struve, whose last appointment was that of chief of the main labor department of the Government General. In other words, he was Minister for Labor in the Government General. Since both the United States Prosecution and the Russian Prosecution have made grave charges against the Defendant Dr. Frank on this very point of the alleged compulsory transfer of workers, it seems to me proper that one witness at least -- the competent of ficial -- should be examined on the facts presented by the Prosecution so that he can say what orders he received on the subject from the Government General. Information as to the location of this witness has also been obtained. He is in an internment camp near Paderborn.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should suggest, My Lord, with great deference, that if Dr. Seidl would run through the other witnesses and show those to which he attaches special importance, it would be convenient for the Tribunal; and if Dr. Seidl would be good enough to say quite bluntly whether he attaches importance to any of the others or if he does not, then it might be possible for the Prosecution to reconsider the elimination of all these witnesses; but the position at the moment is that there are requests for all sections, all departments of the Government General, and the Prosecution failed to see how these are necessary. If Dr. Seidl would indicate any special purpose that he attaches to any of them, then one might come back and consider President Struve again; but the position at the moment is that the Prosecution do not see how it really helps the case of the Defendant Frank that each one of the departmental chiefs should be called.
DR. SEIDL: It is not the case that all the offices or rather holders of office, were named as witnesses. A good many others could have been named. For instance, I have already said that out of nine governors, each of whom was in charge of 3 to 3 1/2 million people, I have named only one: the witness Von Burgsdorff. I have also foregone witnesses whom I had previously named --  for instance, the various military commanders. If, however, the Prosecution wishes to know which witnesses I consider of special importance, I shall give the numbers of these witnesses. They are, besides State Secretary Dr. Buhler, witness Number 2, Von Burgsdorff; Lammers has already been approved; further, the witness Dr. Max Meidinger; the witness Gassner, Number 6; the witness Number 7, Helene Kraffczyk; the witness Number 9, Bilfinger -- he was not a member of the administration of the Government General; members of the Government General; Numbers 13, 14, 15, and 19. That does not mean, however, that I am willing to forego the witnesses which I have not mentioned. Witness Number 15, President Dr. Naumann, is an important witness because he was the chief of the main department for food and agriculture and can give us detailed information about the Defendant Dr. Frank's policy with regard to the feeding of the Polish and Ukrainian peoples and how he tried in particular, through the highest authorities of the Reich, to have the demands of the Reich reduced. The witness' address was not known until now, but I understand that the chief Polish public prosecutor, Dr. Sawicki, is supposed to know where he is at present. The next witness is Number 16, President Ohlenbusch, who is called mainly to testify to the cultural policy pursued by the Defendant Frank in the Government General. He is not, however, one of our most important witnesses; and I imagine that in his case an interrogatory would suffice. The same applies to witness Number 17. Witness Number 18 is Dr.
DR. SEIDL: Eisfeldt whose last appointment was head of the main department of forestry, and who will testify to the forestry policy of the defendant and especially this seems to me an essential point -- to the fact that there was so much trouble with the partisans in the Government General that it was in the interest of the Polish and Ukrainian people themselves to take strong measures against them. Witness Number 19 is President Lesacker, lately head of the main department of internal administration, whose last known place of residence was Bad Tolz. His present address may now have become known. Witness Number 20 is Professor Dr. Teitge, who, as my application shows, is to testify to the efforts made by the Defendant Dr. Frank in the field of public health.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, I have now had the advantage of hearing everything that Dr. Seidl has to say, and it seems to me that, so far as the witnesses from the Government General itself are concerned, the position is that Dr. Bopple, Number 13, does not add greatly to the general position which would be explained by Dr. Buhler and Dr. Von Burgsdorff and Fraulein Kraffczyk; that the witness Number 5, Dr. Meidinger, seems to deal with very much the same problems as President Struve, witness Number 14, and the witness Naumann, Number 15, and that, on reconsideration, I think the Prosecution would be prepared to agree that one of these witnesses, either Dr. Meidinger, or Dr. Struve, or Dr. Naumann, might well be called. With regard to all the others, Dr. Ohlenbusch, Dr. Senkowsky, and Dr. Eisfeldt seem to speak about points that are really removed from the issues in this case, and Dr. Lesacker speaks on the general attitude of the defendant towards Poles and Ukrainians, which is covered by Dr. Buhler and Von Burgsdorff, and Meidinger, if he is granted; and the last witness, Teitge, seems again to speak on a really departmental point which is not a serious issue in the case. And, therefore, in trying to apply our own principle of recommending any witness where there is a real relevancy, the Prosecution would be prepared to go as far as I said in their recommendation, that, in addition to the witnesses that I have mentioned, they would suggest that either Dr.Meidinger or one of the witnesses Struve or Naumann should be called.
COL. POKROVSKY: I ask for permission to add a few words to that which has been said by my esteemed colleague, Sir David.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: After listening very carefully to Dr. Seidl, I have come to the conclusion that we must ask you to take notice of our negative attitude towards a further summoning of the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski. The Soviet Delegation fears that should the Tribunal deem it possible to grant Dr. Seidl's application -- which, to my mind, appears completely unfounded --  then a very dangerous precedent would be created for the factual annulment of the basic decision already accepted by the Tribunal in this respect. As far as I understand, the Tribunal are of opinion that every witness can and must be called once only for purpose of crossinterrogation. In reply to your question Dr. Seidl confirms that he was present here during the cross-examination by my colleague, Colonel Taylor, and myself. He saw and heard how the cross-examination was progressing. His reference to the fact that he did not have time enough to prepare for participation in this crossexamination appears to me unworthy of the slightest attention. He was in the same position as the rest of us. The Tribunal will remember that a number of the Defense Counsel participated in the cross-examination of the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski. I see no reason why a different attitude should be adopted for Dr. Seidl's sake and I do not see why, to gratify a wish of Dr. Seidl, which, to me, is completely incomprehensible, the basic decision of the Tribunal should be changed concerning the repeated calling of witnesses for cross-examination. This is what I wanted to add to the words of my respected colleague, Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I do not believe that the desire to hear an important witness is incomprehensible in itself, if the cross-examination is rendered difficult for reasons over which we have no control. In the first place, I have only asked the Court for permission to submit an affidavit from this witness to the Tribunal. If now the affidavit is such....
THE PRESIDENT: Are you dealing with Number 20?
DR. SEIDL: No, Sir. I am speaking about the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider what you said about it.
DR. SEIDL: May I now begin with the list of documents?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the documents, Dr. Seidl asks for the correspondence between the Governor General and the Reich Chancellery. I have just verified that we do not have the other part of the correspondence. Of course, if any of it comes into our possession, we will be only too pleased to give it to Dr. Seidl. We do not have it, and we also do not have the personal files of the Defendant Frank in the Reich Security Main Office. The same applies to that -- that if we do get possession we will let Dr. Seidl know at once.
THE PRESIDENT: Have the Prosecution any objection to the other documents which are asked for?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think that is all. The others are the diary. Dr. Seidl can comment on and call evidence as he desires as to the diary.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Now counsel for the Defendant Frick.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Your Honors, the first witness I have named is Dr. Lammers, who has, however, already been approved for the Defendant Keitel. I believe, therefore, that I need make no statement on this point. As my second witness I have named the former State Secretary of the Ministry of the Interior, Dr. Stuckart. He is one of the State Secretaries of the Ministry of the Interior, and he is in custody in Nuremberg. He was chief of the central office.
THE PRESIDENT: Is Dr. Stuckart being asked for by the Defendant Keitel?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think the explanation is that it was certainly thought that on the 9th of February this witness was to be so called by the Defendant Keitel, and on that basis he was approved in connection with the Defendant Frick. That is not directly my request to write it on the Defendant Keitel's final list.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no objection to him?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection to him, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Mr. President, as witness Number 3 I have named General Daluege, who was formerly general of the Regular Police, and who is now in custody here in Nuremberg. He is informed especially about the attitude of the Defendant Frick to the anti-Jewish demonstration on 9 November 1938, and he also knows the relations between Frick and Himmler.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 4 I have named Dr. Diels, who is now in an internment camp in the Hanover district. The witness was chief of the Gestapo in Prussia in 1933-1934. He is acquainted with the measures which the Defendant Frick, as Reich Minister of the Interior, decreed for the supervision of the provinces by the Reich, as well as about the concentration camps, and also, in particular, about measures taken in individual cases and about conditions in the camps.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I submit that this witness' evidence should be taken in writing. With regard to the earlier part, the Tribunal will have the advantage of the Defendant Goering who was concerned especially with the practices of the police in Prussia in 1933 and 1934, and with regard to the other points, as to the measures of the Defendant Frick, these are either laws or orders or administrative measures, which could be included, in the submission of the Prosecution, as being dealt with by written testimony supplemented by testimony of the Defendant Frick himself.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I should like to say something to that. I believe that it would be more practical to hear the witness here before the Court. We can then have a talk with him beforehand and find out the points on which he has detailed information, whereas in an interrogatory these things could not be discussed in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider that.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 5 I have named the former police commissioner, Gillhuber. Gillhuber accompanied the Defendant Frick on all his official trips as his police guard. He therefore knows what trips Frick made and can therefore testify that Frick never went to the Dachau Concentration Camp, which contradicts the testimony given here by the witness Dr. Blaha.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection, of course, to the Defendant Frick's dealing with that point. The only difficulty as to a witness of this sort is, I will say, the unfamiliarity with all of his travels, because if he is or was a bodyguard, he is almost certain to have periods of leave, and periods of interruption would occur. I should have thought that this could have been dealt with by affidavits, or an interrogatory, if necessary. When they are seen the matter could be reconsidered. But I would suggest at first stage the interrogatories, indicating in the witness' own account how often he was with the Defendant Frick and what interruptions would be most frequent in that period; therefore, it is for the Court to decide.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I agree with that, Mr. President.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now dealing with the next point, I have a suggestion to make in regard to the witness -- the next witness, Denson. The point, as I understand it there, is that the Witness Blaha said before the Tribunal that Frick had visited Dachau, that it was, however, his evidence at the Dachau trial that Frick did not come to Dachau. I should say the most satisfactory way in dealing with that is to get the shorthand notes of the Witness Blaha's evidence at the Dachau trial and put in a certified copy.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Agreed. I believe also that these notes . . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Actually we have a certified copy of the shorthand notes of Blaha's evidence here, and I also say in fairness to the witness that it does show he did say that at Dachau Frick visited the concentration camp, and I will show it to Dr. Pannenbecker whenever he likes.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 7 I have named Dr. Messersmith. An affidavit from him has been read here by the Prosecution. An interrogatory has already been approved for this witness. We have not as yet received an answer. I should like for the time being to withhold the question as to whether a hearing of this witness in person seems necessary. As an additional application I have also named the witness Dr. Gisevius.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should submit that Dr. Gisevius' evidence might also be reasonably dealt with directly in an affidavit in answer to interrogatories. He was consultant of the Reich Minister of the Interior under the Defendant Frick and supposedly went to Switzerland after 20 July 1944; he has exact knowledge of the responsibility and actual authority of the Defendant Frick to issue orders in police matters. I should think that such matters might be conveniently dealt with in an affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you say, Dr. Pannenbecker?
DR. PANNENBECKER: I should like to say that the Witness Dr. Gisevius -is also required as a witness by the Defendant Schacht, as far as I know, about the events of 20 July 1944. I believe that this witness will have to appear in person for the Defendant Schacht. It would also be better if the witness could be heard here in person for the Defendant Frick. In case of necessity an affidavit would suffice.
THE PRESIDENT: There is one other point about it. You asked earlier for the return of Colonel Ratke. I think that you were told you could have him or Stuckart. Will you now leave him out of your application because you have Stuckart?
DR. PANNENBECKER: No, it was like this. I had named three witnesses for Dr. Blaha -- Gillhuber, Ratke, and a third. We dropped Ratke when I got Gillhuber. May I speak about the document book here?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. PANNENBECKER: In order to give a general description of the Defendant Frick's character, I asked permission to refer to two books. One of them is a small book, We Build the Third Reich, which contains speeches made by Frick. I intend merely to quote short excerpts from these speeches in the course of my presentation of evidence. As regards the other book, Inside Europe, by John Gunther, I want to read here, too, only a short excerpt, one sentence about Frick. Then I have offered further evidence material on the question of whether Frick intervened by means of restrictive decrees against arbitrary measures in imposing protective custody and have based my observations mainly on documents originally submitted by the Prosecution but not read in court. These documents I have listed simply under Number 2a-c. I have further asked for permission to refer to the files of the police department of the Ministry of the Interior, where restrictive decrees issued by the Defendant Frick in regard to protective custody are also to be found. With reference to his intervention in individual cases, I request permission to read a letter written to me by the former Reichstag Deputy Wulle. I have listed it under Number 3. The Prosecution has submitted an affidavit by Seger, in which the latter declares that Frick, as chairman of the Committee for Foreign Affairs of the Reichstag, had made statements on putting political opponents into concentration camps as early as December 1932. In Number 4 I have asked for the stenographic records of the Foreign Affairs Committee to prove that such a statement was never recorded and never made. Number 5 concerns the records of the Dachau trial in regard to the Blaha incident already discussed. Number 6 concerns an affidavit by the Witness Dr. Stuckart, which he made for the American Prosecution on 21 September 1945. I could just as well ask this witness about these questions when he is heard in person; but it would shorten the hearing if I could read this affidavit, which was made for the Prosecution.
DR. PANNENBECKER: With regard to Frick's position as Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, I should like to submit the Prosecution's Document Number 1368-PS, which contains details of the limitations imposed on the Defendant Frick's powers as Reich Protector at the time of his appointment. I have also made a supplementary application for Gisevius' book, To the Bitter End. I learned of this book through an extract published in the Suddeutsche Zeitung on 26 February 1946 which gave interesting details of the Rohm Putsch of 30 June 1934. This extract states that for the events of 30 June 1934, police power was assumed by Hitler and transferred to Goering and Himmler. The book will give further details in precisely this field, since Gisevius was at that time expert for police matters in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. I request the Tribunal, therefore, to refer to this book, which is not yet in my hands, or to assist me to procure a copy.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I might say I do not think that there is much disagreement between Dr. Pannenbecker and the Prosecution. I might run through the documents asked for. In the book, We Build the Third Reich, if Dr. Pannenbecker will indicate the excerpts he is going to use, the Prosecution will have no objection to his quoting from them, and the same with regard to the quotations from Mr.Gunther's book, Inside Europe. To Paragraph 2 of the Document 779-PS and the excerpt from a newspaper, the Document 775-PS -- to these there are no objections. The files of the police division are not in the hands of the Prosecution. If we do get any of them, then we shall let Dr. Pannenbecker know. As far as the letter from the former representative Wulle is concerned, there is no objection to that. I have not seen any letter yet, but there is no objection to it in principle. With regard to Number 4, I think there is some misunderstanding there. That is Document 83. The affidavit of Seger is before the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USA-234, and the statement referred to by Seger was that the Defendant Frick said to him, "Don't worry, when we are in power, we shall put all of you guys into concentration camps." This was alleged in the affidavit as said by Frick to Seger during the course of a conversation. It is not alleged to have been said in the Foreign Affairs Committee. Then Number 5 -- I say I have the shorthand notes, and it will be shown to Dr. Pannenbecker. As to Number 6, I understand that Dr. Stuckart is going to be called. Of course, the affidavit can be put to him and he can verify its truth. The Document 1336-PS will be put at the disposal of the Defense and they can make such use of it as they can. That covers the,documents. As to Dr.Gisevius' book, I understand that Dr. Pannenbecker has not a copy of that. Perhaps the Tribunal will see that a copy can be obtained for him. I do not know whether we have a copy. We will see what we can do and see that a copy is available.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As to Number 4, Dr. Seger, I still have a brief comment to make on Document 83. Perhaps an interrogatory could show whether or not Frick made the statement in question in his capacity as chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee --  in other words whether or not that statement is in the stenographic minutes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I understood that it was not in the minutes. It would not be in the minutes because Dr. Seger alleges that it was made during the course of a conversation, and not in that committee.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will continue tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, if possible, with the further applications for witnesses and documents, which the Tribunal understand have been lodged on Friday evening. [The Tribunal adjourned until 5 March 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: I have an announcement to make. The attention of the Tribunal has been drawn by Dr. Hanns Marx, one of the German counsel appearing in this case for the Defense, to an article which was published in the newspaper Berliner Zeitung for February 2, under the heading, "A Defense Counsel." The article, which I do not propose to read, criticizes Dr. Marx in the severest terms for an error in his cross-examination of a witness when he deputized for Dr. Babel on behalf of the SS. The article suggested that in asking the question he did he was behaving most improperly, that he was expressing private and personal views under the guise of acting as counsel, and that his proper course was to remain silent in view of the character of the evidence. The matter assumes a graver aspect still because the article goes on to threaten Dr. Marx with complete ostracism in the future and does so in language both violent and intimidating. The Tribunal desires to say in the plainest language that such conduct cannot be tolerated. The right of any accused person to be represented by counsel is one of the most important elements in the administration of justice. Counsel is an officer of the Court, and he must be permitted freely to make his defense without fear from threats or intimidations. In conformity with the express provisions of the Charter, the Tribunal was at great pains to see that all the individual defendants and the named organizations should have the advantage of being represented by counsel; and the Defense Counsel have already shown the great service they are rendering in this Trial, and their conduct in this regard should certainly not leave them open to reproach of any kind from any quarter. The Tribunal itself is the sole judge of what is proper conduct in Court and will be zealous to insure that the highest standard of professional conduct is maintained. Counsel, in discharge of their duties under the Charter, may count upon the fullest protection which it is in the power of the Tribunal to afford. In the present instance the Tribunal does not think that Dr.