dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MAJOR JONES: Was Rascher ever charged with murder?
VON EBERSTEIN: I already testified to that on Saturday- unfortunately he was not accused by Himmler. Himmler was the only one who could accuse him, as he was the competent judge at the court.
MAJOR JONES: Although you knew in the spring of 1944 that Himmler's organization was not only criminal but murderous, you continued to serve it for another year?
VON EBERSTEIN: I have already stated the cogent reasons why it was not possible for me to go against the order of my superiors.
MAJOR JONES: When you gave the evidence before the Com-mission on this Rascher matter, do you remember saying-it is recorded in the transcript for the 6th of July 1946-that when you discovered that Rascher was the responsible person for the experi-ments on living human beings, you saw to it that this crime was not carried out any more? Did you say that?
VON EBERSTBIN: Yes, indeed. Inasmuch as this man was not released from arrest as he otherwise probably would have been the other case had been cleared in the meantime-there was no longer any danger of his evading justice. So the man should have been released. However, we continued to hold him because we had received knowledge of this new crime.
MAJOR JONES: Did you take any steps to see to it that Rascher was not succeeded by another SS murderer?
VON EBERSTEIN: I do not understand what you mean by that question.
MAJOR JONES: I will explain myself. The Rascher experiments on human beings were continued in Dachau after Rascher was put into disgrace for fraud, were they not?
VON EBERSTEIN: No; the physician with whom I talked and who was the deputy he was brought before me by the camp com-mander-did not carry out any further experiments of that nature. He was the very man who had reported on the things that Rascher had done, and he told me that he refused to go on working.
MAJOR JONES: Are you telling the Tribunal that the experi-ments and biological research on human beings in Dachau stopped after the dismissal of Rascher?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, indeed. I am firmly convinced of that fact.
MAJOR JONES: I want you to look at the Journal of the Ahnen-erbe, the ancestral research organization, for 1944, which was kept by Sievers, the Reich manager of that organization. It is Document 3546-PS, which will be Exhibit GB-551. I have made certain extracts from the relevant passages for the convenience of the Tribunal. Now, if you confine your attention to the extracts, you can check them against the original if you wish to do so. You will see that Rascher's name appears in January, the conferences with him on the 28th of January, on the 29th of January, and then over in the next page in March and then in April there is a conference at Rascher's station. Now, when exactly was it that you had Rascher arrested, what month was it?
VON EBERSTEIN: What month?
MAJOR JONES: What month was it that you had Rascher arrested?
VON EBERSTEIN: I cannot tell you. But surely you will find it in the files. On Saturday I already testified that it was in the spring of 1944. 1 cannot give you the exact date; however, I do know for certain that at the beginning of May, after the preliminary proceedings of this case were concluded, I went to see Himmler and took the documents, so that these things must have ceased as Rascher was under arrest.
MAJOR JONES: In looking at the extract for May, you will see the conferences of the Reichsarzt SS, in which Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Pluener took part. Did you not know that, Dr. P16tner took over from Rascher in. Dachau?
VON EBERSTEIN: I do not know the names of the various physicians.
MAJOR JONES: In the entry for the 27th of June, the extract of 31st of May- first, you see that Sievers had a conference with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. P16tner first of all, with regard to Professor Schilling. I take it that you know who Professor Schilling is, do you not? Do you know Professor Schilling?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, indeed.
MAJOR JONES: He has recently been condemned to death for his experiments in Dachau, has he not?
VON EBERSTEIN: I read that in the papers.
MAJOR JONES: In May, you see, he was -having a conference with Dr. P16tner; the 27th of June there is a conference with regard to the creation of the scientific research station in the concentration camp. The 25th of July conference with SS Standarterfuehrer Maurer in Oranienburg about the use of inmates for scientific pur-poses; and then on the same page, the 26th of July, Hauptsturni-fuehrer Dr. Fischer goes on a quick journey through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the persons; and then the 21st of Octo-ber, the proceeding of research of SS Sturmbannfuehrer, Professor Dr. Hirt; and then the final entry for the 23d of October 1944, SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Poppendiek, taking over of biological research by SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Pluener in Dachau. Are you still saying to the Tribunal that all experiments on human beings in Dachau stopped after Rascher went from there?
VON EBERSTEIN: I can only state that the name Rascher does not appear here and that I said under oath that he remained under arrest. I do not know what else went on there. Anyhow, when I learned of the happenings, I did everything to have the matter brought to court. What other experiments were made in the camp, as indicated in this report, I cannot know.
MAJOR JONES: Witness, you told the Tribunal that these ex-periments did not go on any more after the dismissal of Rascher. You told that to the Commission, did you not, and it is not true?
VON EBERSTEIN: I can only repeat that Rascher was under arrest and thus I assumed that these experiments had ceased.
MAJOR JONES: If your Lordship please, I am not attempting to cross-examine this witness with the matters discussed before the Commission. The Tribunal is in possession of all the documents with regard to the general matters I dealt with in the cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Doctor Pelckmann, do you want to re-examine?
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, the Prosecution have submitted to you the regulations for punishment that applied to Dachau Con-centration Camp. I should like to ask you once more as a matter of principle, did you have anything to do with the administration of Dachau Concentration Camp or with the bringing in and the release of inmates at this concentration camp?
VON EBERSTEIN: I can only repeat that neither I nor other Higher SS and Police Leaders had anything to do with sending people to or releasing them from concentration camps. At all times, up to the very end, that was the competence of Amt IV of the RSHA, of the Gestapo.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you notice, Witness, that on the copy of this Document D-922 these regulations bear no date, nor is there any indication that these regulations were effective at all.
VON EBERSTEIN: The photostatic copy?
HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, the first one you received, D-922.
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, I should like to remark that it has neither heading, nor signature, nor date.
HERR PELCKMANN: On my copy I can only see that a letter dated 29 May 1933, written by a Herr Wintersberger, was attached. I ask you, Witness, were you in Munich on 29 May 1933?
VON EBERSTEIN: I was at Weimar in Thuringia at that time.
HERR PELCKMANN: The Prosecution called you a confidential agent of the SS, and a personal deputy of Himmler. Will you reply to that? Were you the personal representative of Himmler?
VON EBERSTEIN: I think the statement I made on Saturday must have been misunderstood. I should like to repeat once more. According to the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior in the year 1938, we, the Higher SS and Police Leaders, were the represent-atives of the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police. However, as far as their authority and the power with regard to orders were concerned, according to the text of this decree, the actual superiors of the Police were the heads of the main offices of the Order Police and the Security Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. The Higher SS and Police Leaders, according to the wording of the decree, had only, the right, not the duty, to carry out inspections, and they were merely pe rmitted to make suggestions.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were inspections of concentration camps allowed as well?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. The concentration camps were sub-ordinate to Amtsgruppe D of the Economic and Administrative Main Office only. They had their own services and their own trans-port. It was only possible to enter the camp with the permission of that office.
HERR PELCKMANN: Regarding Document 4045-PS, the affi-davit of Pohl, did you ever discuss with Pohl problems concerning the concentration camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, never. Only once did I go to see Pohl in his office at Berlin-Lichterfelde. The conversation dealt purely with the acquisition of a site in Munich for an SS office-an office for the General SS, which was under me. We discussed the buying of this property. I believe this was in 1940. 1 did not speak to him about concentration camps or any other topic. Besides, I was not on friendly terms with him and had nothing in common with him.
HERR PELCKMANN: You saw the reports of Herr Globocznik, Document 4024-PS, and you said that the reports were completely unknown to you. But did you give out similar decrees or decrees which even remotely resembled them? Did you give directions like that to offices subordinate to you or did you receive such directions from offices over you?
VON EBERSTEIN: I never received orders from superior offices charging me with actions of that kind. At no time in my official capacity was I given an order like that. I am not acquainted with these peculiar affairs, and I should like to repeat that my comrades and I were horrified when we heard about these things in the camps where we are now being held.
HERR PELCIKMANN: You just mentioned your official capacity. Did you mean in your capacity as a leader of the General SS as wen as Police President and Higher SS and Police Leader?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. I am including all the offices which I have ever held.
HERR PELCKMANN: When you look at the documents of Herr Globocznik, can you, from your general knowledge, tell us whether Globocznik was a leader of the General SS and whether he has done these things in that capacity?
VON EBERSTEIN: Globocznik was an SS leader from Austria, as far as I can remember. As I have already said, I saw and talked to him only once in my life. As can be seen from this document, he was-the document bears the heading, Higher SS and Police Leader "Kilstenland, " which would appear to be the Adriatic coast-Higher SS and Police Leader in occupied territory. I have already stated that the activity of the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories differed entirely, from the activity of the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the Reich. As far as I am in- formed, the Higher SS and Police Leaders MJ the occupied territories received their orders from Himmler according to local conditions.  This order or the report on the carrying out of an order, as it is shown in this document, is misleading and not in line with the tasks which were set us. All these things had to do with economic measures with which we in Germany had nothing whatever to do.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you, as Higher SS and Police Leader, have anything at all to do in Germany with economic measures?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, nothing at all.
HERR PELCKMANN: The Prosecution asked you if the experi-ments were continued at Dachau. Here before the Tribunal and before the Commission, you stated according to your conviction "no." The reason you gave for this was that Rascher was under arrest. Look again at the document submitted under 3546-PS and tell me after what date the name Rascher no longer appears in the conferences with Sievers.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we not see that document for ourselves? You are referring to a document and we can read the document as well as he can.
HERR PELCKMANN: Yes. I am just calling the witness' atten-tion to the debatable point in the document, but I will turn to the next question, Your Honor. [Turning to the witness.] What was your reason for assuming that the experiments were not being continued at Dachau? You said Rascher was under arrest?
VON EBERSTEIN: Before seeing this copy here for the first time, I did not know that besides Rascher this Professor Schilling was active as well. I only learned about that from the proceedings in Dachau while under arrest. Up to that time I knew only about the research station of Rascher and that there was another man after Rascher, but I do not know his name. It is possible that it was the man mentioned in the document, namely Dr. Pluener. That is quite possible. I do not know the name of this man. He was quite hor-rified when he reported on the activities of his superior, Rascher.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a waste of our time, an absolute waste of time. The witness said there were no further experiments and when the document is put to him, he says he assumes. What is the use of examining him about this?
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, was the further reason for your assumption that the experiments were not being continued the result of your first protest to Himmler? Please remember Himmler's reaction to your report and tell the Tribunal if Himmler's reaction led you to assume that now since he had been detected he would be very careful about continuing these experiments?
VON EBERSTEIN: When I reported to Himmler he was very angry and he told me that these matters did not concern me at all and that besides Rascher had rendered great services to research of which I did not understand anything. I contradicted him and said it was quite impossible, whereupon Himmler said he would submit the documents and turn the case over to the Highest SS and Police Court. Of course, at that time I could not assume that Himmler knew about the details.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, to summarize your statements and the statement you have just made, I should like to ask you in conclusion whether you are today convinced that the mass of the members of the General SS feel that they have been deceived by their highest leaders, who have outrageously abused their concep-tion of loyalty?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. After discussing this with my com-rades-and I talked with many comrades during my arrest-I must say that the mass of these men were bitterly disappointed when they learned of these things. They cannot comprehend how Himmler could have brought them into contact with such dirty business. I am speaking not only of myself, but of all the men of the SS and these men kept faith to the very last for the sake of the Fatherland. But the leaders did not keep faith with us. We followed the leaders in good faith and were inspired by pure idealism.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you mean by the statement that the Allgemeine SS had ceased to exist in the last part of the war?
VON EBERSTEIN: Your Honor, I only wanted to make it clear that no Allgemeine SS were left in the country; it was practically dissolved. For instance, there were 10,000 SS men in my district in peacetime and at the end of 1944, when the Volkssturm was called up-that was the first time we made a check on how many men were still there-there were only 1,200 men, left, and even these were no longer free for duty since they were all employed on work connected with the war. They were working on the railways, in the postal service, on the land, so that to all intents and purposes the Allgemeine S8 had been dissolved. Even the command posts of the Sturmbann and the Standarte had been dissolved. The following is proof that nothing remained. When a guard of honor was required for a memorial service, it was not even possible to muster a guard of honor as all the men were with the colors. For all practical purposes, it was dissolved. For our social work we had to call in women, old people, and others who were not members of the SS at all but only sympathizers.
HERR PELCKMANN: Are you saying there were no SS men employed in any of the concentration camps in Germany?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, I do not assert that. There had been members of the SS with the command staffs from the beginning, but they no longer received orders from the General SS. Their names had been struck off our lists, because they were no longer on our rolls. They had worked in the concentration camps, I should say, since 1934 and led their own lives there. It can certainly be ascer-tained how many of these men there were in all. In proportion to the entire membership of the SS it was only a very small number. I do not know the exact number, but I do not think I am going too far when I say that at Dachau there were perhaps 50 or 60 men on the staff of the commander.
HERR PELCKMANN: Are you saying there were 50 or 60 men at Dachau who had ceased to be members of the SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, I do not really mean that. They still wore our uniform and were attached to the commanders of the concentration camp, but they actually had nothing in common with us for we hardly had any more contact with them. We met them only occasionally.
HERR PELCKMANN: Had you no responsibility for them?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, I was not responsible.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, another question. Had the Waffen-SS any contact with or any relation to the Allgemeine SS except through the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler?
VON EBERSTEIN: Only at the outset when the Verfuegungs-truppe (emergency troops) were formed. That was the organization from which the Waffen-SS originated. Men who wanted to become soldiers enlisted in the General SS. This is a topic on which a general of the Waffen-SS will testify as he is more informed on this point than I am. We were merely on friendly terms; we visited each other. To issue orders...
THE PRESIDENT: After that first stage you agree that the Waffen-SS, except through Himmler, had no connection with the General SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, Your Lordship, they had no connection. They wore the same uniform and politically they held the same views. But, as I have said already, I am not in a position to testify as I never served in the Waffen-SS myself, but only received the rank of a Waffen-SS general when the Prisoners of War Organi-zation was turned over to us.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know whether any of the Waffen-SS were used in concentration camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: There were special guard troops. In peace-time they were the Death's-Head Units and they wore their own insignia. Instead of the two lightning flashes which the Waffen-SS had on their collars they had a death's head. They were, so to speak, another troop unit, and since they were made up of young people they were replaced during the war by older men ...
THE PRESIDENT: Are you answering my question which was: Were any members of the Waffen-SS used in concentration camps? You are telling me about the Totenkopf.
VON EBERSTEIN: It may have been that during the war wounded men, perhaps those members of the SS who were no longer fit for service at the front, were transferred to the guard units-those who came out of the hospital, I assume. If you con-sider this as having a connection, then I suppose it is so. I
THE PRESIDENT: Turning to another matter-this Gauleiter and Reich Commissioner for the Munich and south Bavarian district, how long had he been in office?
VON EBERSTEIN: The Reich Defense Commissioner Giesler-I assume that is the man you mean, Your Honor-was in office from the summer of 1942 until the end.
THE PRESIDENT: And you were in close contact with him, I suppose?
VON EBERSTEN: Yes, I had to take orders from him regarding matters of home defense. My official relationship, if I may put it that way, as I have already testified, consisted in my being Police President and thus a Bavarian administration official, and as Giesler was the Reich Defense Commissioner and also Bavarian Minister of the Interior he was as such my superior.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any other superior police officer over you?
VON EBERSTEIN: I did not understand the last part of the question. There seems to have been a technical disturbance.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any police officer in Munich over you?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
THE PRESIDENT: What police had you under you?
VON EBERSTEIN: As Police President up to 1942-I was no longer Chief of Police after 1942. I was replaced then by someone else - up to 1942 I was in charge of the Protection Police. In every large city of Germany there was a commander of the Protection Police who assisted the Chief of Police in the regulation of traffic and other tasks connected with public life. In addition to that there was at Police headquarters a Criminal Police office. The chiefs of police had nothing to do with the Political Police, the Gestapo, or the Security Service. These were 'offices which worked independ-ently.
THE PRESIDENT: Was the Gestapo under you?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
THE PRESIDENT: The SD?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then what police were under you?
VON EBERSTEIN: As Chief of Police I was responsible for the city of Munich and of all other ...
THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell me what police there were under you?
VON EBERSTEIN: Which police were subordinate to me? I have already stated as Chief of Police I had command of the Pro-tection Police and the Order Police, with about 1,700 officials, and I could use them just as they were needed in the city. In addition, I had the supervision of the Criminal Police-I could, give directions to them in my capacity as Chief of Police but not in my capacity as Higher SS and Police Leader. My other colleagues who were not chiefs of police, and, therefore, not higher officials, could only carry out inspections and make suggestions. It is very hard to explain these matters, but these are the facts.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all. The witness can retire.
HERR PELCKMANN: Is it agreeable to you, Mr. President, if I do not call the next witness until 2 o'clock?
THE PRESIDENT: No. Call the witness.
HERR PELCKMANN: I should like to call the witness Brill. [The witness Brill took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
ROBERT BRILL (Witness): Robert Brill.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, what activity did you carry out which put you in a position to testify here about the affairs of the SS?
BRILL: For 12 years I was with the Waffen-SS. In 1933 I entered the service as a private in the Leibstandarte. I was made an officer and then for 4 years, with interruptions due to my service at the front, I was in the Erguenzungs Amt (training center) of the Waffen--SS. At the end of the war I was orderly officer in an SS Panzer division.
HERR PELCKMANN: What does that mean, "Erguenzungs Amt of the Waffen-SS?
BRILL: The Erguenzungs Amt of the Waffen-SS concerned itself with the enrollment and examination of recruits for the Waffen-SS as well as with the military supervision of the members of the Waffen-SS. I was the head of a main. department in the Erguenzungs Amt and as such I had under me the drafting and military super-vision. However, I had sufficient insight into other departments of the Waffen-SS so that I can testify here before this Court.
HERR PELCKMANN: Is it correct to say that you could watch the development as far as figures are concerned in the Waffen-SS?
BRILL: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Would you give the Tribunal details as exactly as possible, paying special attention to the question of whether the enlistments in the Waffen-SS were voluntary or compulsory?