dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
OHLENDORF: I think this question is too general to be answered in a concrete way, it must be divided up. If you ask whether Kaltenbrunner could order executive actions, I must answer in the affirmative. If you then name Himmler and Muller to the exclusion of Kaltenbrunner, I must point out that in the organization of the RSHA Muller was Kaltenbrunner's subordinate; and consequently orders from Himmler to Muller were also orders to Kaltenbrunner, and Muller was obliged to inform Kaltenbrunner of them. On the other hand, it is certain that, particularly in regard to the concentration camps, the final decision on dispatch to them or release from them was really made by Himmler. I can say with absolute certainty-in this connection the expression "to the last washerwoman" was often used-that Himmler reserved the final decision for himself. Whether Kaltenbrunner had any authority at all in this regard, I cannot say definitely.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you personally see the original orders and original signatures of Kaltenbrunner ordering the liquidation of sabotage troops and so on?
OHLENDORF: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you know, either directly or indirectly, that after Heydrich's death a change, which to be sure was not a formal change, took place and that another and milder course was followed by Kaltenbrunner?
OHLENDORF: I couldn't answer that question with concrete proof.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then I will leave that question, and come to another. Did Kaltenbrunner know that you were an Einsatz leader in the East?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Who gave you this order?
OHLENDORF: Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Heydrich gave it to you? Then it was before this time?
OHLENDORF: Yes, of course.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions at the moment.
THE TRIBUNAL (Major General I. T. Nikitchenko, Member for the U.S.S.R.): Witness Ohlendorf, can you answer up to what date the Einsatzgruppe under your command was operating?
OHLENDORF: The staff of the Einsatzgruppe went as far as the Caucasus and then returned. As far as I can remember, a combat command (Kampfkommando) was formed out of it under the name "Bierkamp," and that was used in fighting the partisans. Then, I think, the Einsatzgruppe was entirely disbanded, Bierkamp went into the Government General and took a large number of his men with him.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): What did the group do after Bierkamp left?
OHLENDORF: I think I can say that the Einsatzgruppe ceased to exist after the retreat from the Caucasus. It took over tasks similar to those of the Wehrmacht under the immediate command of the Commander of the Sicherheitspolizei in the Ukraine and particularly under the command of the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the Ukraine.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): In other words, it merely carried out its activities in different surroundings under different leadership, and that was all the difference. Such functions as were performed by the Einsatzgruppe in the past continued to be carried out in new surroundings.
OHLENDORF: No, it actually became a combat unit.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): What does that mean? Against whom were the military actions directed?
OHLENDORF: Within the scope of operations directed against the partisan movement.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Can you say more particularly what this group was actually doing?
OHLENDORF: After the retreat?
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): .When you say that the function of this group changed when it conducted operations against the partisans.
OHLENDORF: I have no concrete experiences myself. It was probably used for reconnaissance against the partisans and also in combat.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): But did it carry out any executions?
OHLENDORF: I can no longer say that definitely for this period, for the unit now entered territories in which that sort of activity was out of the question.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): In your testimony you said that the Einsatz group had the object of annihilating the Jews and the commissars, is that correct?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): And in what category did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred?
OHLENDORF: The order was that the Jewish population should be totally exterminated.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Including the children? 3 Jan.46
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Were all the Jewish children murdered?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): But the children of those whom you considered as belonging to the category of commissars, were they also killed?
OHLENDORF: I am not aware that inquiries were ever made after the families of Soviet commissars.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Did you send anywhere reports on the executions which the group carried out?
OHLENDORF: Reports on the executions were regularly submitted to the RSHA.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): No, did you personally send any reports on the annihilation of thousands of people which you effected? Did you personally submit any report?
OHLENDORF: The reports came from the Einsatzkommandos who carried out the actions, to the Einsatzgruppe and the Einsatzgruppe informed the RSHA.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Whom?
OHLENDORF: The reports went to the Chief of the Sipo personally.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Personally?
OHLENDORF: Yes, personally.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): What was the name of this police officer? Can you give his name?
OHLENDORF: At that time, Heydrich.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): After Heydrich? .
OHLENDORF: I was no longer there then, but that was the standing order.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): I am asking you whether you continued to submit reports after Heydrich's death or not?
OHLENDORF: After Heydrich's death I was no longer in the Einsatz, but the reports were, of course, continued.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Do you know whether the reports continued to be submitted after Heydrich's death or not?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Yes?
OHLENDORF: No, the reports..
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Was the order concerning the annihilation of the Soviet people in conformity with the policy of the German Government or the Nazi Party or was it against it? Do you understand the question?
OHLENDORF: Yes. One must distinguish here: The order for the liquidation came from the Fuehrer of the Reich, and it was to be carried out by the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): But was it in conformity with the policy conducted by the Nazi Party and the German Government, or was it in contradiction to it?
OHLENDORF: A policy amounts to a practice so that in this respect it was a policy laid down by the Fuehrer. If you were to ask whether this activity was in conformity with the idea of National Socialism, then I should say "no."
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): I am talking about the practice.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood you to say that objects of value were taken from the Jewish victims by the Jewish Council of Elders.
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Did the Jewish Council of Elders settle who were to be killed?
OHLENDORF: The Jewish Council of Elders determined who was a Jew, and then registered the Jews individually.
THE PRESIDENT: And when they registered them did they take their valuables from them?
OHLENDORF: That was done in various ways. As far as I remember, the Council of Elders was given the order to collect valuables at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT: So that the Jewish Council of Elders would not know whether or not they were to be killed?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now until 5 minutes past 2.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): When you spoke of the written agreement between the leaders of the Einsatz groups and the Army, do you know whether or not the functions and purposes of the Einsatz groups were described in the agreement? Did the agreement say what the groups were going to do?
OHLENDORF: I no longer remember that. In any case the task of liquidation was not mentioned.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Do you understand the question?
OHLENDORF: Yes. I cannot quite remember whether there was a general clause in the agreement about the tasks and activities of the Security Police in the operational area, but I am certain that it contained nothing regarding the task of liquidation.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You stated that there had been a general order for the liquidation of all Jews. Was that order in writing?
OHLENDORF: No.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Do you know who gave the order?
OHLENDORF: Is this question with regard to the activities of the Einsatzgruppen?
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Yes.
OHLENDORF: Regarding the Einsatzgruppen, the order came first via Himmler, Heydrich, and Streckenbach to the Einsatzgruppen and then was repeated a second time by Himmler personally.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did a similar order go to the Army?
OHLENDORF: I know of no such order to the Army in this form.
THE PRESIDENT: Now do any of the defendants' counsel wish to cross-examine this witness?
DR. OTTO NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Keitel): Witness, you said that several weeks before the opening of the Russian campaign, there were conferences regarding the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos. Were you personally present at these conferences?
OHLENDORF: May I briefly correct this by saying that the main subject was not the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen but the set-up within the operational area...
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a moment. Will you repeat that, please?
OHLENDORF: May I make a correction by saying that, according to my recollection, the main subject was not the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen but the establishment of these mobile organizational units for activities within the operational area of the Army.
DR. NELTE: In other words, this concerned tasks within the sphere of the Army?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: You testified that the written agreement was concluded between the RSHA on the one hand and the OKW and OKH on the other. Are you familiar with the difference in authority between the OKW and the OKH?
OHLENDORF: Yes. DR. NELTE Who was present from the OKW at these conferences?
OHLENDORF: I cannot mention any one name because I personally was not present at these conferences, but these conferences were conducted by Heydrich on the one hand and by his deputy, Schellenberg, on the other.
DR. NELTE: Schellenberg also spoke on this question in an affidavit presented here, but he mentioned Quartermaster General Wagner as the official with whom he had to deal. Can you remember now whether this was also the case at the conferences to which you are referring?
OHLENDORF: At any rate the name of Quartermaster General Wagner is one of the few names mentioned which I remember in connection with these conferences.
DR. NELTE: Is it known to you that Quartermaster General Wagner had nothing to do with the OKW as an institution?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: I take it that you cannot therefore name any personality who might be regarded as representative of the OKW?
OHLENDORF: No, I cannot. I merely said that I remembered- that is, I still have in my mind's eye-the letterhead OKW-OKH. I took this double heading to mean that essential negotiations with Canaris were probably being carried out, that arrangements with Canaris were therefore included in this agreement, and that this accounted for the letterhead OKH plus OKW, which, to me as welt had appeared unusual, since the OKH, per se, was naturally in charge of all movement and supply.
DR. NELTE: A joint letterhead OKW-OKH, as such, did not, of course, exist. In your case then it could have been only a typewritten copy?
OHLENDORF: I can still visualize a mimeographed sheet. 3 Jan.46
DR. NELTE: Do you know which signatures were on this document which you visualize?
OHLENDORF: I cannot remember, I am sorry.
DR. NELTE: One of the judges already put the question that orders would naturally result from an agreement of this kind. Is the name of the OKW, or the signature perhaps, included in any one such order?
OHLENDORF: Now I do not understand what kind of orders you mean.
DR. NELTE: When an agreement is made between two different organizations such as the RSHA on the one hand and, shall we say, the OKH on the other, then the office entrusted with the execution of that which has been agreed upon must be informed thereof in a form known as an "order" in military parlance. Is such an order known to you as originating from the OKW?
OHLENDORF: Please understand that no such orders from the War Office or the OKW were received by me. I should have had only orders or wishes expressed by the Army.
DR. NELTE: By the Army or by your superior command?
OHLENDORF: No. I am speaking now..: If I think of the Armed Forces...
DR. NELTE: Therefore, there was no connection of any kind between you, as leader of the Einsatzgruppe, and the OKW as such?
OHLENDORF: No immediate connection. I know very well that individual reports reached the OKW through official channels.
DR. NELTE: If you know that, can you tell me to which office? Because, after all, OKW covered a great many.
OHLENDORF: I should assume they eventually reached Canaris.
DR. NELTE: I thank you.
DR. EGON KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for the Reich Cabinet): Witness, in your position as Chief of the SD, you will probably have some idea about the trustworthiness of the members of the Reich Cabinet and about the secrecy in which very important matters were kept. Please answer this question: whether the order which has been discussed today regarding the liquidations, in your opinion, originated in the Reich Cabinet and whether this order, in your opinion, was made known to the individual members of the Reich Cabinet?
OHLENDORF: I am convinced that both questions are to be answered in the negative.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I should like to ask the witness a few more questions on behalf of the Defendant Speer, since counsel for the Defendant Speer is absent and I, as a colleague, have taken over this task. Witness, is it known to you that the Defendant Speer, contrary to Hitler's orders, took measures to prevent the destruction of industrial and other installations?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: That these measures also extended beyond the interior of Germany to the then still-occupied area of Upper Silesia, et alla ?
OHLENDORF: I believe that the date when I learned about this was so late that, although applicable to some small areas in the West, it no longer applied to any area in the East.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: One more question which you might perhaps know about. Do you know that the Defendant Speer prepared an attempt on Hitler's life in the middle of February of this year?
OHLENDORF: No.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Do you know that Speer undertook to turn Himmler over to the Allies so that he could be called to account and possibly clear others who were innocent?
OHLENDORF: No.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: This question will perhaps be answered in the affirmative by another witness. Are you well informed regarding the events of the 20th of July?
OHLENDORF: To a considerable extent.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Is it known to you that the circle of plotters of 20 July had also planned to keep the Defendant Speer as head of his Ministry?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Do you know any details about that?
OHLENDORF: From the participants in the plot of the 20th of July I merely learned that they had considered him, on a drafted organizational scheme, as continuing in his post as head of the armament ministry.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Witness, do you believe that this intention of the plotters of the 20th of July was due to the fact that the Defendant Speer, in view of his activities, was considered not only in these circles but even elsewhere merely as an expert and not as a politician?
OHLENDORF: The question is very hard to answer. It is very difficult not to be considered a politician if one has been so closely connected with those authorities of the Reich who made the final political decisions and has perhaps been an essential contributor to the suggestions and proposals from which the decisions evolved. On the other hand, Minister Speer was known or believed not to be purely a politician.
DR. RUDOLF MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo): Witness, do you know that in April 1933 the Gestapo was created in Prussia?
OHLENDORF: I do not know the month, but I do know the year.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know what was the purpose of creating this institution?
OHLENDORF: To fight political opponents potentially dangerous to the State.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know how this institution, which was intended originally for Prussia only, was extended to the rest of the Reich?
OHLENDORF: Either in 1933 or in 1934 the institution of the Political Police was created in all of the Lander. These Political Police agencies were officially subordinated in 1934, as far as I remember, to the Reichsfuehrer SS as Political Police Chief of the Lander. The Prussian Secret State Police Office represented the first central headquarters. After the creation of the Main Office of the Security Police the command tasks were delegated by Himmler to Heydrich who carried them out through the Main Office of the Security Police.
DR. MERKEL: Who created and instituted the Gestapo in the individual Lander?
OHLENDORF: I cannot give you an answer to this question.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know whether before 1933, in the area which then constituted the Reich, there had existed a similar institution, a political police force?
OHLENDORF: Yes, that existed, as far as I remember, at Police headquarters in Berlin, for instance; and I believe it was Department IA. At any rate political police organizations did exist.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything about the sphere of activities of this organization which existed before 1933?
OHLENDORF: Yes. They were the same; at any rate their activities were fundamentally the same.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything about the personnel of the Gestapo, which on the whole, was a new institution and consequently not constituted merely by a transfer of personnel already in existence.
OHLENDORF: When I became acquainted with the State Police it was certainly true that the nucleus of expert personnel had been taken from the Criminal Police and the majority of the leading men in the State Police offices, that is, in the regional offices of the State Police, had risen from the ranks of the civil administration, possibly also from the Police administrations of the various Lander (Landerpolizeiverwaltungen), and that they had, in part, even been detailed from the civil administration. The same was also true for the experts within Amt IV-the Gestapo.
DR. MERKEL: You say the majority of the officials were detailed?
OHLENDORF: I did not say the majority were detailed, but I said "in part."
DR. MERKEL: Detailed in part? Was it possible for any of these members of the Gestapo to resist being taken over into the Gestapo if they did not wish it, or was it not?
OHLENDORF: I would not affirm that a definite resistance was possible. Some of them might have succeeded, by cunning, in avoiding it had they not wanted to go. But if one was detailed to such an office from the civil administration, then, as an official, one simply had to obey. As an official one had to.
DR. MERKEL: The members of the Gestapo evidently consisted almost exclusively, or exclusively, of civil service officials? Do you know anything about that?
OHLENDORF: That probably was no longer the case during the war. But as a rule it should be assumed that they were officials insofar as the specialists were concerned. Some of them, of course, while in training, were not yet officials and others again were engaged merely as employees or, especially, as assistants.
DR. MERKEL: Can you tell me the approximate number of the members of the Gestapo towards the end of the war?
OHLENDORF: I estimate the total organization of the Gestapo, including the regional offices and the occupied territories, at about 30,000.
DR. MERKEL: There was therefore within the Gestapo a considerable percentage of officials who were merely administrative officials and had nothing to do with operational functions?
OHLENDORF: Yes, of course.
DR. MERKEL: And what was the percentage of these administrative officials who performed purely administrative functions?
OHLENDORF: We must, in the first instance, take into consideration that this number included the assistants, as well as the women; and I cannot give you any figures off hand. But it is certain that a proportion of one specialist to three or four persons not employed in a functional capacity could not be considered excessive.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything about who was responsible for the direction and administration of the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: It was Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
DR. MERKEL: Did or did not the Gestapo have anything to do with the direction and with the administration of the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: According to my knowledge, not.
DR. MERKEL: Therefore, no members of the Gestapo were active or in any way involved in the measures carried out in the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: As far as I could judge from a distance, only investigating officials of the State Police were active in the concentration camps.
DR. MERKEL: Did the Gestapo in any way participate in the mass executions undertaken by your Einsatzgruppe which you described this morning?
OHLENDORF: Only to the same extent as every other person present in the Einsatzgruppe.
DR. MERKEL: I ask the Tribunal to give me the opportunity of questioning this witness again after the return of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, since I am obliged to rely exclusively on information received from Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that the Tribunal will be prepared to allow you to put further questions at a later stage.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you. PROFESSOR DR. FRANZ EXNER (Counsel for the General Staff and the High Command of the German Armed Forces): Witness, you mentioned the negotiations which took place in the OKW, which later led to an agreement between OKW and OKH on the one side, and the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) on the other. I am interested in this point: Can you assert that during the negotiations for this agreement there was mention of the extermination and the killing of Jews?
OHLENDORF: I cannot say anything concrete on this particular subject, but I do not believe it.
DR. EXNER: You do not believe it?
OHLENDORF: No.
DR. EXNER: In addition you have told us that the Commanding General of the 11th Army knew about the liquidations, and I should like to ask you: Do you know anything regarding the commanding generals of the other armies?
OHLENDORF: In general they must have been informed through the speech of the Fuehrer before the beginning of the Russian campaign.
DR. EXNER: That is a conclusion that you have drawn?
OHLENDORF: No, it is not a conclusion that I have drawn; it is merely a report on the contents of the speech which, according to Himmler's statement, Hitler had made to the commanding generals.
DR. EXNER: Now you have spoken about directives given by the Commanding General of the 11th Army. What kind of directives were they?
OHLENDORF: I first spoke about the commanding general in the Nikolaiev incident, that is, about the order given at that time that the liquidations should take place 200 kilometers away from the headquarters of the High Command of the army. The second time, I did not speak about the commanding general of the army but about the High Command of the army at Simferopol, because I cannot say, with any certainty, who had requested the competent Einsatzkommando at Simferopol to speed up the liquidations.
DR. EXNER: That is the very question I should like to put to you: With whom in the 11th Army did you negotiate at that time?