dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it may be that there are three age groups. Your Lordship sees that it is "according to the data at my disposal, the number of students affected by the closure for 3 years of the Czech universities is 18,000." It may be that is the intake for 2 years, in addition to present students. [Turning to the defendant.] Anyhow, this is the figure; and it is this problem which has been dealt with by your Ministry. It may be that it includes certain high schools, but at any rate, these are your Ministry's documents, and I want to know what happened. This was the minutes, as I understand it, from Dennler, Dr. Dennler, who was the head of Group X of your office to Burgsdorff, who had a superior position; and, if I may summarize it, this letter of 21 November 1939 suggests that the students should be taken forcibly from Czechoslovakia to the old Reich and put to work in the old Reich; and then, the next-on 25 November, you will notice that in Paragraph 2 it says-the writer, who is Burgsdorff, is saying that he is dealing with X 119/39, which is Dennler's memorandum; and Burgsdorff says that he does not want them to go into the Reich because at that time there was some unemployment in the Reich, and suggests that they should be dealt with by compulsory labor on the roads and canals in Czechoslovakia. Now, these were the two proposals from your office. My Lord, the second one is Document 3857-PS, which will be Exhibit GB-524. [Turning to the defendant.] What happened to the unfortunate students?
VON NEURATH: Nothing at all happened to them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, did either of these proposals of Dr. Dennler for forced labor in the Reich and of Burgsdorff for forced labor in Czechoslovakia, did they come up to you?
VON NEURATH: No, none of them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did they come to you for decision? Did they come to you for decision?
VON NEURATH: I think they were submitted to me, but I cannot tell you for certain.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, will you agree with me, or perhaps you will be able to correct my knowledge, that this is the earliest suggestion-you said it was not put into effect-but the earliest suggestion of forced labor came from an officer of your department? Do you know of any other department of the Reich that had suggested forced labor as early as November 1939?
VON NEURATH: There is no connection, and, moreover, if you were to look through suggestions made by all your subordinates, then you, too, might find some proposal which you afterward rejected. Suggestions made by an adviser do not mean anything at all. Apart from that, perhaps I can clear up this figure of 18,000. Here it says, "According to the data at my disposal, the number of students who will be affected by closing the Czech universities for 3 years will be 18,000." It is, therefore, three times 6,000, is it not? Which is approximately 18,000.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I had already put forward that suggestion, Defendant, about 10 minutes ago, but I respectfully agree with you. That is one matter in which we are not in difference. Well now, you understand what I am suggesting. It is that these proposals germinated in your office, because they were quite in keeping with the proposals in the memoranda which I have just read to the Tribunal, that you should not only get rid of Czech higher education, but you should have forced labor. Do you remember that was in the State Secretary's memorandum? What I am suggesting is that it was in your department-the idea of forced labor-as early as 21 November 1939. Now, Defendant, I have only one other matter, and I hope, as it is a question of fact, that perhaps you will be able to agree with me on reflection. You suggested this morning that the German university in Prague was closed down after the founding of Czechoslovakia in 1919. That is how it came to us. On reflection, do you not know that it continued and that many thousands of students graduated in the German university of Prague between 1919 and 1939?
VON NEURATH: As far as I know, it was a department of the Czech university, a German part of the Czech university, as far as I know.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But it continued-it continued as a university?
VON NEURATH: Yes, it continued, but as a Czech university.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, but German students came there and could take their degrees in German? It was a permitted language? I suggest to you that there are thousands of people who went there from Austria and from the old Reich-went there as Germans and took their degrees in German.
VON NEURATH: Yes, only the old German university, the socalled Charles University, visas closed by the Czechs. But a German department, or whatever one might call it, still remained. The Germans studied and took their examinations there.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think the point is clear. I am not going to argue about the actual thing, but that there was a German university, where German students could study, you will agree.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution wish to cross-examine further?
STATE COUNSELLOR OF JUSTICE M. Y. RAGINSKY (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): Defendant, tell us please, when you were Minister of Foreign Affairs did Ribbentrop try to intervene in the foreign affairs of Germany?
VON NEURATH: Is that a question?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, that is a question.
VON NEURATH: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Would you please tell us in what form this intervention took place?
VON NEURATH: By communicating to the Fuehrer his own ideas on foreign policy, without giving them to me for consideration.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. Yesterday you stated here that in 1936 you had differences of opinion with Hitler and that on 27 of July 1936 you asked to be relieved of your duties as a Minister. This document was cited here yesterday, but did you not write to Hitler then?-and I will read the last sentence of your letter to him: "Even if I am no longer Minister, I shall be constantly at your disposal, if you so desire, with my advice and my years of experience in the field of foreign policy." Did you write these words in your letter to the Fuehrer?
VON NEURATH: Yes indeed; yes indeed.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And did you fulfill the promises you made to Hitler? Whenever it was necessary to cover by diplomatic manipulations the aggressive actions of Hitler, as for instance at the time of the annexation of the Sudetenland, during the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and so on? Did you help Hitler with your experience? Is that right?
VON NEURATH: That is a great mistake. On the contrary, as I have stated here yesterday and today, I was called in by Hitler only once; and that was on the last phase of the Austrian Anschluss. With that my activities came to an end, but in 1938, to be sure, I went to see him of my own accord, to restrain him from starting the war. That was my activity.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: We have already heard this. I would like to ask you another question concerning the memorandum of Friderici without repeating what has already been said here concerning it. You remember this memorandum well, as it was just presented to the Court a short time ago. In the last part of the memorandum of Friderici-it is the last paragraph but one- it is stated: "If the governing of the Protectorate were in reliable hands and guided exclusively by the order of the Fuehrer of the 16th of March 1939, the territory of Bohemia and Moravia would become an integral part of Germany." It was for this purpose that Hiker chose you to be Protector; is that not so?
VON NEURATH: Not a bit; that was not the reason at all. The reason was-I have described it in detail yesterday.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. We shall not repeat the reasons; we spoke about them yesterday. Well, you deny that you were precisely the man who was supposed to carry through the invasion of Czechoslovakia?
VON NEURATH: To that I can only answer "no."
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. Do you admit that you were, in the Protectorate, the only representative of the Fuehrer and of the Government of the Reich, and that you were directly subordinate to Hitler?
VON NEURATH: Yes, that is right; that is stated in Hitler's decree.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, it is stated there. I will not read this decree, which would only delay the interrogation. This decree has already been presented to the Court. Do you acknowledge that all administrative organs and authorities of the Reich in the Protectorate with the exception of the Armed Forces, were subordinate to you?
VON NEURATH: No. I am sorry to have to say that that is a mistake. That is also stated in the same decree of 1 September 1939. Apart from that, there were numerous other organizations, that is, Reich authorities, which were not under my jurisdiction; quite apart from the Police.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, as far as the Police are concerned, we will speak about that separately. So you think it is a mistake that the decree does not mention it, or do you interpret the decree otherwise? ~ I shall read the first paragraph of the decree of 1 September 1939. It is stated there: "All the authorities, offices and organizations of the Reich in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia) with the exception of the Armed Forces, are under the jurisdiction of the Reich Protector." It is also stated in Paragraph 2: "The Reich Protector supervises the entire autonomous administration of the Protectorate." And Paragraph 3: "The office of the Reich Protector is in charge of all administrative branches of the Reich administration with the exception of the Armed Forces." As you see, it is stated very bluntly and definitely here that all the institutions of the Reich were subordinate to you, while you were subordinate to Hitler.
VON NEURATH: I have to tell you again that as to administrative agencies, yes; but there were a number of other authorities, Reich authorities and offices which did not come under my jurisdiction, for instance, the Four Year Plan.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Now let us pass to the question of the Police. Yesterday, in answer to a question of your counsel, you stated to the Tribunal that as to this decree of 1 September, signed by Goering, Frick, and Lammers, Paragraph 13 was not comprehensible to you. Let us examine other paragraphs of the same chapter concerning the Police. Paragraph 11 says: "The organs of the German Security Police in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia have the task of investigating. and combating all hostile attempts toward the government and population in the territory of the Protectorate, informing the Reich Protector as well as the subordinate organizations, keeping them currently informed on important events, and advising them as to what to do." Paragraph 14 of the same decree states: "The Reich Minister of the Interior (the Reichsfuehrer SS, and the Chief of the German Police), with the agreement of the Reich Protector in Bohemia and Moravia releases the legal and administrative directives necessary for carrying out this order." Thus, according to this decree, the Police and the SS were obliged to let you know about all their measures and, moreover, all their administrative and legal acts and measures had been carried out with your knowledge. Do you acknowledge that?
VON NEURATH: No; that is not right. First of all, there was at one time an order that they were to inform me. But that was not carried out and was forbidden by Himmler directly. And the other, the second regulation to the effect that the administrative measures-or whatever it is called-could or should be carried out with my approval, was never applied.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: So you deny it?
VOW NEURATH: Yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I now present to you the testimony of Karl Hermann Frank, of 7 March 1946, on this very question; that is, on the question of the Police and to whom they were subordinated. Mr. President, I present this testimony as Exhibit Number USSR-494.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this in the English book as well, do you know?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: No, Mr. President. This document that I am presenting now is an original, signed by Frank. [Turning to the defendant.] Karl Hermann Frank, during an interrogation, testified: "According to the order on 'The Structure of the German Administration in the Protectorate and the German Security Police,' all German authorities and offices in the Protectorate and thereby the entire Police, too, excepting the Armed Forces are formally subordinated to the Reich Protector and are bound by his directions. Owing to this the Security Police was bound to carry out this basic political policy set forth by the Reich Protector. Orders as to carrying out State Police measures were mainly issued by the Chief of the Security Police with the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin. "If the Reich Protector wanted to carry out some State Police measures, he had to have the permission of the Reich Security Main Of lice in Berlin; that is, in this case the State Police also submitted each order for reconfirmation to the Reich Security Main Of lice in Berlin. The same applied also to directives for the carrying out of State Police measures given by the Higher SS and Police Leader to the Chief of the Security Police." I would like to draw your attention to this paragraph that I am reading now: "This system of channels for issuing directives remained in force during the whole existence of the Protectorate and was used as such by Von Neurath in the Protectorate. In general the Reich Protector could, on his own initiative, issue directives to the State Police through the Chief of the Security Police. The carrying out of such directives was, however, subject to approval by the Reich Security Main Office if State Police measures were concerned. "In regard to the SD (Security Service), which had no executive powers, the authority of the Reich Protector respecting the issuing of directives to the SD was greater and not subject to the approval of the Reich Security Main Of lice in every case." Do you confirm this testimony of Frank?
VON NEURATH: No.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right.
VON NEURATH: I refer you to a statement by the same Frank, which I have learned about here, which was made last year, during which he said something quite different. He said that the entire Police were not under the Reich Protector, but came under the Chief of the Police in Berlin, namely, Himmler. It ought to be here somewhere-this statement.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Don't worry about it; I will come back to this testimony. Tell me, please, who was the political adviser in your service?
VON NEURATH: Political adviser?
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, political adviser.
VON NEURATH: In general I had various political advisers.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In order not to waste time, I will show you a short document, and I ask you to read it. On 21 July 1939 the Chief of the Security Police wrote a letter to your State Secretary and Higher SS and Police Leader, Karl Hermann Frank. The letter had the following contents: "In an order of 5 May 1939 the Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia appointed the SD Leader and Chief of the Security Police as his political adviser. I have ascertained that this order has not yet been published or carried out. Please provide for carrying out this order. "Signed, Dr. Best." Do you remember your order now?
VON NEURATH: I cannot remember that decree at the moment, but I do remember that this was never carried out, because I did not have this SD leader as my political adviser.
THE PRESIDENT: This would be a convenient time to break off.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, just one more minute, please, to finish this question, and then we can break off. [Turning to the defendant.] But did you issue such an order on 5 May?
VON NEURATH: I can no longer tell you about that at this date-but it is probably true. I do not want to deny it; I do not know any more.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: But you did issue this order? All right. I thank you, Mr. President. It is possible to adjourn now. I shall require 30 minutes more. [The Tribunal adjourned until 26 June 1946, at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will not sit on Thursday, tomorrow afternoon, in open session, but will sit in closed session. That is to say, we will sit tomorrow, Thursday, from 10 till 1 in open session, and we will sit in the afternoon in closed session. On Saturday morning, the Tribunal will sit in open session from 10 till 1.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am aware that yesterday when I submitted the Document USSR-494, the necessary copies of this document were not submitted to the Tribunal. I am very sorry about this, and I would ask you to accept the necessary copies now which I am going to submit. [The Defendant Von Neurath resumed the stand.] Let us go back, Defendant, to your warning issued in August 1939. If I understood you correctly, you said here before the Tribunal that this warning was issued in connection with the military situation of the time; is that correct?
VON NEURATH: With reference to the military situation nothing had happened at that time; absolutely no political tension had become noticeable in the meantime; therefore, it was not directly in connection with the military situation. There was certainly nothing wrong yet at that time.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: That is regardless of the military situation, all right. Do you acknowledge that by this order of yours, or by this warning, you had introduced a system of hostages? Do you admit that?
VON NEURATH: I did not understand the question.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I am going to repeat the question. I am asking you, do you acknowledge that by means of this warning of August 1939-I am submitting this document as evidence under Document Number USSR-490-that by this order you were setting up a system of hostages? Do you admit that?
VON NEURATH: I did not understand.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Was it correctly translated to you just now?
VON NEURATH: Yes; the translation did not come through on the last question, or rather the last sentence. I did not understand the last sentence.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, I will put it to you that you know the document well.
VON NEURATH: Yes; but I did not understand the last sentence of your question.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I shall try to say it in such a way that you will understand it now. In this order of yours, in the penultimate paragraph, it is stated, '`The responsibility for all acts of sabotage will be borne not only by the individual perpetrators, but by the entire Czechoslovak population." This means that not only guilty persons have to be punished, but there were punishments set up for innocent people too. With this order you inaugurated the mass terrorism against the Czech population.
VON NEURATH: Not at all. It only meant that the moral responsibility for any possible acts was to be laid to the account of the Czech people.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, in Lidice, was this not applied in practice? Was it only a question of the moral responsibility there?
VON NEURATH: Yes, yes.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In this order you state the following: "Those who do not take these necessities into account will be considered enemies of the Reich." To the enemies of the Reich you applied only the principles of moral responsibility and nothing else?
VON NEURATH: Yes, if someone did not obey orders, then naturally he was punished.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: That is exactly what I am trying to determine and that is why I put this question to you, that just by this order of August 1939 you started the general terrorism of a massacre and punishment of innocent people.
VON NEURATH: Well, I do not know how you can draw this conclusion from this warning.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: We are going now to the deductions which we can make out of this. In the report of the Czechoslovak Government, submitted as evidence, Document USSR-60, which is a report on the final result of the investigation of the crimes committed by you and your collaborators, all this has been stated. And you just flatly deny all this documentary evidence. I am not going to argue with you regarding this document, but I am going to read into the record some of the testimony by the witnesses; and I would like you to reply whether you corroborate this evidence or whether you deny it. I am going to read into the record an excerpt from the testimony of the former Minister of Finance, Josef Kalfus, of 8 November 1945. The Tribunal will find these excerpts on Page 12 of the English text, Document USSR-60. Kalfus stated: "The economic system introduced by Neurath and after him by the later German regime, was nothing else than systematic, organized robbery. As to the occupation of decisive positions in the Czech industry and finance, it should be pointed out that, together with Neurath, a vast economic machinery was installed, which immediately occupied the chief positions in industry. The Skoda Works, Brno Armament Works, steel works at Vitkovice, important banks- Bohemian Discount Bank, Lander Bank, and Bohemian Union Bank-were occupied as well." Do you corroborate this evidence?
VON NEURATH: I talked about this matter in great detail yesterday, and I refer you to my statement I made yesterday. I have nothing to add.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Thus, you do not corroborate this evidence?
VON NEURATH: Not in the least.
MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The former, President of Bohemia, Richard Bienert, during the interrogation of 8 November 1945, stated-Mr. President, this excerpt is on Page 13 of the English text of the Document USSR-60: "When we got to know him more closely, we noticed that he, Neurath, was ruthless toward the Czechs. As the Landesprasident of Bohemia I knew that it was Neurath who subjected the political administration in Bohemia and Moravia to German control, both the state administration and the local government as well. I remember also that Neurath caused the abolition of the local school counsellors, and the appointment of German school inspectors in their place. Neurath ordered the dissolution of the regional representative bodies; he caused Czech workers to be sent to the Reich from April 1939 onward in order to work for the war machine of the Reich. He ordered the closing down of the Czech universities and of many Czech secondary and elementary-schools. "He abolished the Czech sport clubs and associations, such as Sokol and Orel, and ordered the confiscation of all the property of these gymnastic organizations; he abolished...the Czech recreation homes and sanatoria for young workmen and students, and ordered the confiscation of their property. The Gestapo carried out the arrests, but on the order of the Reich Protector. . . I myself was arrested on 1 September 1939, as well." Will you still deny this testimony?
VON NEURATH: No, no. About all the matters which are listed here, I spoke yesterday in great detail. I do not intend to repeat it all over again now. Moreover, it- seems strange to me that Mr. Bienert of all people, who knew perfectly well what I had ordered and what my relations were to the Gestapo and so forth, that Mr. Bienert of all people should say things like that.