dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
OHLENDORF: I, personally, did not negotiate at all with anyone on this subject, as I was not the person directly concerned with these matters; but the High Command of the Army negotiated with the competent local Einsatzkommando either through the responsible army office, which at all times was in touch with the Einsatzkommandos, namely the I-C or the I-CAD, or else through the staff of the CQ.
DR. EXNER: Who gave you orders for the advance?
OHLENDORF: The orders for the advance came, as a rule, from the Chief of Staff.
DR. EXNER: From the Chief of Staff? The Commanding General of the army at the time referred to was Von Manstein. In this case was there ever an order signed by Von Manstein?
OHLENDORF: I cannot remember any such order; but when the advance was being discussed there were oral consultations with Von Manstein, the Chief of Staff, and me.
DR. EXNER: When the advance was being discussed?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. EXNER: You said that the Army was opposed to these liquidations. Can you state how this became evident?
OHLENDORF: Not the Army, but the leaders were inwardly opposed to the liquidations.
DR. EXNER: Yes; but I mean, how did you recognize that fact?
OHLENDORF: In our conversations. Not only the leaders of the Army were opposed to the liquidations but also most of those who had to carry them out.
DR. EXNER: I thank you.
PROFESSOR DR. HERBERT KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht): Were you acquainted with the personal records on Reichsbank President Schacht kept in your department?
OHLENDORF: No.
DR. KRAUS: Do you know why, after the 20th of July 1944, the former Reichsbank President Schacht was arrested and interned in a concentration camp?
OHLENDORF: Probably the occasion of the 20th of July was favorable also for the conviction at last of Reichsbank President Schacht, who was known to be inimical to the Party, inasmuch as by means of witnesses or other methods he could be brought to trial in connection with the events of the 20th of July.
DR. KRAUS: Then Defendant Schacht was known to your people as being inimical to the Party? OUT ENCORE Yes, at least from 1937-1938 on.
DR. KRAUS: Since the year 1937 or 1938? And you also suspected him of participating in Putsche?
OHLENDORF: Personally I did not suspect this, because I was not concerned with these matters at all He was mainly under suspicion because of his well-known enmity. But, as far as I know, this suspicion was never confirmed.
DR. KRAUS: Can you tell me, who caused Schacht to be arrested?
OHLENDORF: That I cannot say.
DR. KRAUS: Then you don't know whether the arrest was ordered by the Fuehrer, by Himmler, or by some subordinate authority.
OHLENDORF: I don't think the order could possibly have come from any subordinate authority.
DR. KRAUS: Then you assume that it had been ordered by the Fuehrer?
OHLENDORF: At least by Himmler.
DR. OTTO STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): Witness, if I understood you correctly, you said: At the beginning of 1933, after the seizure of power by Hitler, the Gestapo was created in Prussia; but before that time there had already existed in Prussia an organization with similar tasks, for instance at the Police headquarters in Berlin with Department IA, with the difference that this organization was opposed to National Socialism, whereas now the contrary is true. But its task was likewise to keep political opponents under observation and if need be to arrest them, and thus to protect the State from these political opponents.
OHLENDORF: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: You said further that in 1933, after the seizure of power, a political police with identical tasks was also instituted in all the other Lander.
OHLENDORF: Yes, in the year 1933-1934.
DR. STAHMER: This political police, which existed in the various Lander, was then centralized in 1934 and its direction handed over to Himmler?
OHLENDORF: It was not at first centralized, but Himmler did become Chief of Police of all the Lander.
DR. STAHMER: Now one more question. Did the Prussian Gestapo play a leading role, as far as the other Lander were concerned, as early as 1933 or only after Himmler took over the leadership in 1934?
OHLENDORF: I do not believe that the Prussian State Police, which after all was under the leadership of Reich Marshal Goering, became, at that time, the competent authority for the other Lander as well.
FLOTTENRICHTER OTTO KRANZBUEHLER (Counsel for Defendant Doenitz): I am speaking as the representative of the counsel for Defendant Grossadmiral Raeder. [Turning to the.witness.] Witness, you just mentioned a speech of the Fuehrer before the army commanders, in which the Fuehrer is supposed to have given instructions to the commanders regarding the liquidation of Jews. Which conference do you mean.
OHLENDORF: A conference which must have taken place shortly before the Russian campaign with the commanders of the army groups and the armies at the Fuehrer's quarters.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Were the commanders of the various branches of the Armed Forces absent?
OHLENDORF: I do not know that.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Were you yourself present at this conference?
OHLENDORF: No. I have recounted this conference on the basis of a conversation I had with Himmler.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Did this conversation with Himmler take place in a large circle of people or was it a private conversation?
OHLENDORF: It was a private conversation.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Did you have the impression that Himmler stated facts, or do you consider it possible that he wished to encourage you in your difficult task?
OHLENDORF: No. The conversation took place much, much later and did not spring from such motives, but from resentment at the attitude of certain generals of the Armed Forces. Himmler wanted to say that these generals of the Armed Forces could not disassociate themselves from the events that had taken place, as they were just as responsible as all the rest.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: And when did this conversation with Himmler take place?
OHLENDORF: In May 1945, at Flensburg.
FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBUEHLER: Thank you.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, with regard to the command channels at the disposal of the RSHA for the execution of its orders and measures and for the transmission of these orders to tactical organizations, such as the SD and the concentration camps, did the RSHA possess its own command channels or did it rely on the channels of the Leadership Corps organization, that is, were these orders forwarded via the Gauleitung and the Kreisleitung?
OHLENDORF: I know nothing about it. I consider it entirely out of the question.
DR.SERVATIUS: You consider it entirely out of the question that the Gauleitung and the Kreisleitung had been informed? How was it, for instance...
OHLENDORF: One moment, please. You asked me whether these orders passed through these channels. You did not ask me whether they had been informed.
DR.SERVATIUS: Were these offices informed of the orders?
OHLENDORF: The inspectors, the Gestapo leaders, and the SD leaders were all considered as police or political agents (Referenten) of the Gauleiter or the Reichsstatthalter; and these office chiefs had to report to the Gauleiter on their respective fields of activity. To what extent this was done, I am unable to judge. It depends on the activities and on the degree of co-operation between the Gauleiter and these offices, but in any case it is inconceivable that the State Police could carry on these activities for any length of time without the knowledge of the responsible Party organizations.
DR. SERVATIUS: Does this also hold for reports from lower to higher units? For the activities of the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: The concentration camps were not subordinate to the State Police. I am convinced, since these were purely affairs of the Reich, that there was no such close connection between the Gauleiter and the concentration camps as there was between the Gauleiter and the permanent activities of the State Police.
DR.SERVATIUS: I also represent the Defendant Sauckel. Do you know of the impressment of foreign workers by the SS? Foreign workers who, as a matter of fact, came from the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: Only superficially.
HERR BABEL: Witness, this morning you mentioned the figures of 3,000 and 30,000 for the Security Service. I should now like to know for certain how these figures are to be understood. Do the 3,000 members of the SD whom you mentioned this morning represent the entire personnel of the SD at that time, or did they represent only those members who were employed in the field with the mobile units also mentioned by you this morning?
OHLENDORF: No, it represented the total personnel including employees and women auxiliaries.
HERR BABEL: Including employees and women auxiliaries. And the 30,000 which we also discussed-were they honorary members (ehrenamtliche Milglieder) employed only in the interior of Germany?
OHLENDORF: Yes; as a rule, in any case.
HERR BABEL: And who, for the most part, belonged neither to the SS nor to the Party?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
HERR BABEL: How large were the mobile units of the SD employed in these executions?
OHLENDORF: The SD had no mobile units but rather only individual members of the SD detailed to outside organizations. The SD, as a separate entity, did not act independently anywhere.
HERR BABEL: In your opinion and judging by your own experience, how many of these detailed personnel were there?
OHLENDORF: The figure was quite small.
HERR BABEL: Will you please give an approximate figure.
OHLENDORF: I place the figure at an average of about two to three SD experts per Einsatzkommando.
HERR BABEL: I should like to know the total strength of the SS. Do you know anything about that?
OHLENDORF: No, I have no idea at all.
HERR BABEL: No idea at all. Did any units of the Waffen-SS and other subordinate SS groups in any way participate in the Einsatzgruppen?
OHLENDORF: As I said this morning, in each Einsatzgruppe there was, or rather there should have been, one company of Waffen-SS.
HERR BABEL: One company. And what, at that time, was the exact strength of one company?
OHLENDORF: I do not know about the Waffen-SS serving with the other Einsatzgruppen, but I estimate that my particular group employed approximately 100 men of the Waffen-SS.
HERR BABEL: Were Death's-Head Units (Totenkopf Verbande) also employed?
OHLENDORF: No.
HERR BABEL: Was the Adolf Hitler Bodyguard (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler) employed in any fashion?
OHLENDORF: That was purely a matter of chance. I cannot name a single formation from which these Waffen-SS had been taken.
HERR BABEL: Another question that was touched upon this morning: When was the SD created and what, at first, were its duties?
OHLENDORF: As far as I know, the SD was created in 1932.
HERR BABEL: And what were its duties at that time?
OHLENDORF: It constituted, so to speak, the Intelligence Corps of the Party. They were supposed to give information about Party opponents and, if necessary, to thwart them.
HERR BABEL: Did these duties change in the course of time, and, if so, when?
OHLENDORF: Yes, after the seizure of power, the combatting of political opponents was, in certain spheres, one of their principal duties and supplying the required information on certain individuals was considered an important factor. At that time an intelligence service, in the true sense of the word, did not yet exist; the real evolution of the SD machine within the field of home intelligence service only followed as from 1936-1937. From that time on the work changed from the observation of individuals to technical matters. With the 1939 reorganization, when the Main Office of the SD was dissolved, the handling of political opponents was completely eliminated from the work of the SD, which work was thereafter limited to technical matters. Its duties now consisted in observing the effects of the measures carried out by the leading authorities of the Reich and the Lander and in determining how the circles affected reacted to them; in addition, they had to find out what the moods and attitude of the people and its various classes of society were during the course of the war. It was, as a matter of fact, the only authority offering criticism within the Reich and reporting facts from an objective point of view to top levels. It should also be pointed out that the Party did not, at any stage, legitimize this work until 1945. The only legitimation for this critical work came from Reich Marshal Goering, and that only after the war, for he could in this way draw the attention of the other departments, at meetings of the Reich Defense Council, to faulty developments. This expert critical work became, in fact, after 1939 the main function of the SD home intelligence service.
HERR BABEL: Another question. To what extent were units of the SD employed for duty in the concentration camps?
OHLENDORF: I would ask you at all times to distinguish between the SD home service (SD-Inland) with the head office of Amt III, and the SD service board (SD-Ausland). I cannot give you any information about the SD service board; but the chief, Schellenberg, is present in this courthouse. As far as Amt III is concerned, I know of no single case in which the SD home service had representatives or anything at all to do with concentration camps.
HERR BABEL: Now, a question concerning you personally. From whom did you receive your, orders for the liquidation of the Jews and so forth? And in what form?
OHLENDORF: My duty was not the task of liquidation, but I did head the staff which directed the Einsatzkommandos in the field, and the Einsatzkommandos themselves had already received this order in Berlin on the instructions of Streckenbach, Himmler, and Heydrich. This order was renewed by Himmler at Nikolaiev.
HERR BABEL: You personally were not concerned with the execution of these orders?
OHLENDORF: I led the Einsatzgruppe, and therefore I had the task of seeing how the Einsatzkommandos executed the orders received.
HERR BABEL: But did you have no scruples in regard to the execution of these orders?
OHLENDORF: Yes, of course.
HERR BABEL: And how is it that they were carried out regardless of these scruples?
OHLENDORF: Because to me it is inconceivable that a subordinate leader should not carry out orders given by the leaders of the state.
HERR BABEL: This is your own opinion. But this must have been not only your point of view but also the point of view of the majority of the people involved. Didn't some of the men appointed to execute these orders ask you to be relieved of such tasks?
OHLENDORF: I cannot remember any one concrete case. I excluded some whom I did not consider emotionally suitable for executing these tasks and I sent some of them home.
HERR BABEL: Was the legality of the orders explained to these people under false pretenses?
OHLENDORF: I do not understand your question; since the order was issued by the superior authorities, the question of legality could not arise in the minds of these individuals, for they had sworn obedience to the people who had issued the orders.
HERR BABEL: Could any individual expect to succeed in evading the execution of these orders?
OHLENDORF: No, the result would have been a court-martial with a corresponding sentence.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, do you wish to re-examine?
COL. AMEN: Just a very few questions, Your Honor. [Turning to the witness.] What organization furnished the supplies to the Einsatz groups?
OHLENDORF: The Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) furnished the equipment.
COL. AMEN: What organization furnished weapons to the Einsatz groups?
OHLENDORF: The weapons were also furnished through the RSHA.
COL. AMEN: What organization assigned personnel to the Einsatz groups?
OHLENDORF: The Organization and Personnel Department of the RSHA.
COL. AMEN: And all these activities of supplies required personnel in addition to the operating members?
OHLENDORF: Yes.
COL. AMEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: That will do; thank you. [The witness left the stand.]
COL. AMEN: The next witness to be called by the Prosecution is Dieter Wisliceny. That witness will be examined by Lieutenant Colonel Smith W. Brookhart, Jr. [The witness, Wisliceny, took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
DIETER WISLICENY (Witness): Dieter Wisliceny.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath: "I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing." [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: Please speak slowly and pause between questions and answers. LIEUTENANT COLONEL SMITH W. BROOKHART, JR. (Assistant Trial Counsel for the United States): How old are you?
WISLICENY: I am 34 years old.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Where were you born?
WISLICENY: I was born at Regulowken in East Prussia.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Were you a member of the NSDAP?
WISLICENY: Yes, I was a member of the NSDAP.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Since what year?
WISLICENY: I entered the NSDAP first in 1931, was then struck off the list and entered finally in 1933.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Were you a member of the SS?
WISLICENY: Yes, I entered the SS in 1934.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Were you a member of the Gestapo?
WISLICENY: In 1934 I entered the SD.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: What rank did you achieve?
WISLICENY: In 1940 I was promoted to SS Hauptsturmfuehrer.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Do you know Adolf Eichmann?
WISLICENY: Yes, I have known Eichmann since 1934.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Under what circumstances?
WISLICENY: We joined the SD about the same time, in 1934. Until 1937 we were together in the same department.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: How well did you know Eichmann personally?
WISLICENY: We knew each other very well. We used the intimate "du," and I also knew his family very well.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: What was his position?
WISLICENY: Eichmann was in the RSHA, a section chief in Amt IV, Gestapo.
LT. COL.BROOKHART: Do you mean Section IV or a subsection, and, if so, which subsection?
WISLICENY: He ran Section IVA4. This department comprised two subsections: one for churches and another for Jewish matters.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: You have before you a diagram showing the position of Subsection IVA4b in the RSHA.
WISLICENY: Yes.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Did you prepare this diagram?
WISLICENY: Yes, I made the diagram myself.
LT. COL.BROOKHART: Does it correctly portray the organizational setup showing the section dealing with Jewish problems?
WISLICENY: Yes, this was approximately the personnel of the section at the beginning of 1944.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Referring to this chart and the list of leading personnel as shown in the lower section of the paper, were you personally acquainted with each of the individuals named therein?
WISLICENY: Yes, I knew all of them personally.
LT. COL.BROOKHART: What was the particular mission of IVA4b of the RSHA?
WISLICENY: This Section IVA4b was concerned with the Jewish question for the RSHA. Eichmann had special powers from Gruppenfuehrer Muller, the Chief of Amt IV, and from the Chief of the Security Police. He was responsible for the so-called solution of the Jewish question in Germany and in all countries occupied by Germany.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Were there distinct periods of activity affecting the Jews?
WISLICENY: Yes.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Will you describe to the Tribunal the approximate periods and the different types of activity?
WISLICENY: Yes. Until 1940 the general policy within the section was to settle the Jewish question in Germany and in areas occupied by Germany by means of a planned emigration. The second phase, after that date, was the concentration of all Jews, in Poland and in other territories occupied by Germany in the East, in ghettos. This period lasted approximately until the beginning of 1942. The third period was the so called "final solution" of the Jewish question, that is, the planned extermination and destruction of the Jewish race; this period lasted until October 1944, when Himmler gave the order to stop their destruction.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: When did you first become associated with Section IVA4 of the RSHA?
WISLICENY: That was in 1940. I happened to meet Eichmann . . .
LT. COL. BROOKHART: What was your position?
WISLICENY: Eichmann suggested that I go to Bratislava as adviser on the Jewish question to the Slovakian Government.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Thereafter how long did you hold that position?
WISLICENY: I was at Bratislava until the spring of 1943; then, almost a year in Greece and later, from March 1944 until December 1944, I was with Eichmann in Hungary. In January 1945 I left Eichmann's department.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: In your official connection with Section IVA4, did you learn of any order which directed the annihilation of all Jews?
WISLICENY: Yes, I learned of such an order for the first time from Eichmann in the summer of 1942.
LT. COL. BROOKHART: Will you tell the Tribunal under what circumstances and what was the substance of the order?
WISLICENY: In the spring of 1942 about 17,000 Jews were taken from Slovakia to Poland as workers. It was a question of an agreement with the Slovakian Government. The Slovakian Government further asked whether the families of these workers could not be taken to Poland as well. At first Eichmann declined this request. In April or at the beginning of May 1942 Eichmann told me that henceforward whole families could also be taken to Poland. Eichmann himself was at Bratislava in May 1942 and had discussed the matter with competent members of the Slovakian Government. He visited Minister Mach and the then Prime Minister, Professor Tuka. At that time he assured the Slovakian Government that these Jews would be humanely and decently treated in the Polish ghettos. This was the special wish of the Slovakian Government. As a result of this assurance about 35,000 Jews were taken from Slovakia into Poland. The Slovakian Government, however, made efforts to see that these Jews were, in fact, humanely treated; they particularly 3 Jan.46 tried to help such Jews as had been converted to Christianity. Prime Minister Tuka repeatedly asked me to visit him and expressed the wish that a Slovakian delegation be allowed to enter the areas to which the Slovakian Jews were supposed to have been sent. I transmitted this wish to Eichmann and the Slovakian Government even sent him a note on the matter. Eichmann at the time gave an evasive answer. Then at the end of July or the beginning of August, I went to see him in Berlin and implored him once more to grant the request of the Slovakian Government. I pointed out to him that abroad there were rumors to the effect that all Jews in Poland were being exterminated. I pointed out to him that the Pope had intervened with the Slovakian Government on their behalf. I advised him that such a proceeding, if really true, would seriously injure our prestige, that is, the prestige of Germany, abroad. For all these reasons I begged him to permit the inspection in question.