dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SCHACHT: I made only two notes. In Hitler's Reichstag speech on 23 March 1933 he said, "It is the sincere desire of the National Government . . ."-not the National Socialist, as it is always referred to later, but the National Government. And the second point: In the proclamation to the Wehrmacht which Defense Minister Von Blomberg issued on 1 February 1933 this sentence occurs: "I assume this office with the firm determination to maintain the Reichswehr, in accordance with the testament of my predecessors, as a power factor of the State, above Party politics." This and other factors already mentioned convinced me that the Cabinet would be a national coalition cabinet, whereas Hitler, by his rule of terror and violence, formed a pure Nazi dictatorship out of it.
DR. DIX: The quotation mentioned by Schacht is in our document book, Document Number Schacht-4, Page 14 of the English text. Now, when you became Minister of Economics . . .
THE PRESIDENT: It is 5 o'clock; the Tribunal will adjourn.
DR. DIX: Mr. President, may I ask a question? Do we continue tomorrow, because tomorrow is the first of May, and there is some uncertainty whether there will be a session tomorrow or not?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Tribunal will go on tomorrow. [The Tribunal adjourned until 1 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: Before we go on with the case of the Defendant Schacht, the Tribunal wishes to announce its decision on the applications by Dr. Sauter on behalf of the Defendant Von Schirach: The first application to which any objection was taken related to the group of documents Numbers 30, 31, 45, 68, 73, 101, 124, and 133. That application with respect to that group of documents is denied. The next matter was an application in respect of Number 118(a). That application is granted and the document is to be translated. The next was Number 121 and in that case the application is denied. As regard to witnesses, Dr. Sauter withdrew his application for the witness Marsalek. In connection with the other applications, the Tribunal grants the application that Uiberreither should be called as a witness. That is all.
DR. DIX: Yesterday, much to my regret, I neglected after an answer given by Dr. Schacht to my question as to whether he was disappointed by Hitler or whether he considered himself deceived by him, to read a passage from a document which deals with the same point. I am referring to a document which has been submitted to the High Tribunal and which has been quoted several times- Exhibit Schacht-34, Page 114 of the English text of the document book. This passage may be found on Page 124 of the English document book and reads as follows: "Dr. Schacht, even in the years 1935-36, as may have been seen from numerous statements, had fallen into the role of a man, who in good faith had put his strength and ability at Hitler's disposal but who now felt himself betrayed. "Of the many statements made by Schacht, I quote only one which Schacht made at the occasion of a supper with my wife and myself in the summer of 1938. When Dr. Schacht made his appearance, it was evident that he was in a state of inner excitement and during the supper, he suddenly gave vent to his feelings, when, in deep agitation he almost shouted at my wife, 'My dear lady, we have fallen into the hands of criminals-how could I ever have suspected that?'" This is the affidavit made out by Schniewind. Yesterday I mentioned three documents: namely, a speech made by Schacht on "Geography and Statistics" at Frankfurt-am-Main on 9 December 1936, then an article Schacht had written on the colonial problem and a speech given at Koenigsberg by Schacht. I wish to submit these documents: The speech on "Geography and Statistics" at Frankfurt is the Document Schacht-19, Page 48, English Page 54. The theme on the colonial question is Exhibit Schacht-21, German version Page 53 and English version Page 59. The speech at Koenigsberg is Exhibit Schacht-25 of my document book, German version on Page 44 and English version Page 73. Dr.
DR. DIX: Schacht, we stopped in the middle of 1934, shortly before you entered the Ministry of Economics, and when you became Minister of Economics, you were familiar with the happenings of 30 June 1934 and their legalization by the Cabinet. Did you not have any misgivings to enter the Cabinet or what reasons prompted you to put aside these misgivings?
SCHACHT: As far as my personal composure and comfort would have been concerned, it would have been very simple not to assume office and to resign. Of course, I asked myself what help that would be for the future development of German politics if I did refuse office. We were already at a stage in which any public and open opposition and criticism against the Hitler regime had been made impossible. Meetings could not be held, societies could not be established, every press statement was subject to censorship, and all political opposition, without which no government can thrive, had been prevented by Hitler through his policy of terror. There was only one possible way to exercise criticism and even form an opposition which could prevent bad and faulty measures being taken by the Government. And this opposition could solely be formed in the Government itself. Thus convinced, I entered the Government and I hoped in the course of the years to find a certain amount of support and backing among the German people. There was still a large mass of spiritual leaders, professors, scientists, and teachers, whom I did not expect simply to acquiesce to a regime of coercion. There were also many industrialists, leaders of economy, who I did not assume would bow to a policy of coercion incompatible with free economy. I expected a certain support from all these circles, support which would make it possible for me to have a moderating, controlling influence in the Government. Therefore, I entered Hitler's Cabinet, not with enthusiastic assent, but because it was necessary to keep on working for the German people and exercise a moderating influence within the Government.
DR. DIX: In the course of time was no opposition ever developed within the Party?
SCHACHT: In answering that question, I would like to say that within the Party, of course, the decent elements were by far in majority; the greater part of the population had joined the Party because of a healthy instinct and with good intentions driven by the need in which the German nation found itself. I would like to say about the SS, for instance, that in the beginning numbers of decent people joined the SS because Himmler gave the SS the appearance of fighting for a life of ideals. I would like to call your attention to a book written by an SS man which appeared at that time under the significant title, Schafft anstaendige Kerle (Let's Make Decent Men) . But, in the course of time, Hitler knew how to gather around him all bad elements, within the Party and its organization, and to chain tightly all those elements to himself, because he understood how to exploit shrewdly any mistake, slip-up, or misdemeanor on their part. Yesterday I talked about drunkenness as a constituent part of Nazi ideology; I did not do that with the purpose of degrading anyone personally. I did it for another quite definite reason. In the course of further developments, I observed that even many Party members who had fallen into this net of Hitler and who occupied more or less leading positions, gradually became afraid because of the consequences of the injustices and the evil deeds to which they were instigated by the regime. I had the definite feeling that these people resorted to alcohol and various narcotics in order to flee from their own conscience, and that it was only this flight from their own conscience that permitted them to act the way they did. Otherwise, there would be no explanation for the large number of suicides that took place at the end of the Nazi regime.
DR. DIX: You know that you are accused of being a participant in a conspiracy which had as its object an illegal violation of the peace. Did you at any time have secret discussions, or secret orders, or secret directives, which worked toward this objective?
SCHACHT: I may say that I myself never received any order or fulfilled any wish which might have been contrary to the conception of right. Never did Hitler request anything from me which he knew I would surely not carry out because it did not agree with my moral point of view. But neither did I ever notice or observe that one of my fellow ministers or one of the other leading men who did not belong to Hitler's inner circle-of course, I could not control that circle-or anyone else whom I met in official contacts, showed in any way that there was an intent to commit a war crime; on the contrary, we were always very glad when Hitler came off with one of his big speeches in which he assured, not only the entire world, but above all the German people that he was thinking of nothing except peace and peaceful work. The fact that Hitler deceived the world and the German people, and many of his co-workers is one of the things that I mentioned yesterday.
DR. DIX: Did you at any time-of course, I mean outside of your normal oath of office-take any oath or bind yourself in any other way to the Party or another National Socialist organization?
SCHACHT: Not a single oath and not a single obligation beyond my oath of office to the head of the State.
DR. DIX: Did you have close private relations with leading National Socialists, for example, with Hitler or Goering?
SCHACHT: I assume you mean a close friendly or social contact?
DR. DIX: Yes.
SCHACHT: I never had relations of that sort with Hitler. He repeatedly urged me in the first years to come to the luncheons at the Reich Chancellery where he was lunching with closer friends. I tried to do that twice. I attended twice at various intervals, and I must say that not only the level of the discussion at the luncheon and the abject humility shown to Hitler repulsed me but I also did not like the whole crowd, and I never went back again. I never called on Hitler personally in a private matter. Of course, naturally, I attended the large public functions which all the ministers, the Diplomatic Corps and high officials, et cetera, attended, but I never had any intimate, social, or other close contact with him. That applies to the other gentlemen as well. As a matter of course, in the first months of our acquaintance we visited each other on occasion, but all so-called social gatherings which still took place in the first period had a more or less official character. Close private relations simply did not exist.
DR. DIX: And does this answer apply to all the other leading National Socialists as well?
SCHACHT: All of them.
DR. DIX: When, for instance, did you speak for the last time with the following persons? Let us start first with Bormann.
SCHACHT: I gather from the use of the word "first" that you are going to mention others also.
DR. DIX: Yes, Himmler, Hess, Ley, and Ribbentrop.
SCHACHT: In that case I would like to make a few preliminary remarks: At the close of the French campaign, when Hitler returned triumphant and victorious from Paris, all of us-the ministers and the Reichsleiter and the other dignitaries of the Partner as I assume, and state secretaries, and so forth-received an invitation from the Reich Chancellery to be present at the Anhalter Railway Station to greet Hitler on his arrival. Since I was in Berlin at the time, it was impossible for me to refuse this invitation. It was 1940, the conflict between Hitler and myself had been going on for some time, and it would have been a veritable affront if I had stayed at home. Consequently, I went to the station and saw a very large number of Party dignitaries, ministers and so forth, but, of course, I do not remember any more just who all these people were.
DR. DIX: I beg your pardon for interrupting you. I have a rather poor memory for films and especially for newsreels, but I believe that that reception was shown in a newsreel and I believe that you were just about the only civilian who was present among those people.
SCHACHT: I personally did not see that film, but my friends told me about it. They mentioned especially that among all the gold braid, I was the only civilian in street clothes there. Of course, it could be ascertained from the film who was present at the time. I mentioned this reception, for it might be possible that I said "Good morning" to many people and inquired about their health and so forth, and I also recall that I arrived at the station with the Codefendant Rosenberg in the same car, because there were always two people to a car. I did not attend the reception which followed at the Reich Chancellery. Rosenberg did go but I said, "No, I would rather not go. I am going home."
DR. DIX: Then, I may assume that you probably saw the leading men, Hess, Ley, Ribbentrop, Rosenberg, Frick, Frank, Schirach, Speer, Sauckel, Seyss-Inquart, Kaltenbrunner, et cetera, then for the last time?
SCHACHT: It is possible that all these gentlemen were there, but I did not speak at length with any of them except Hitler himself.
DR. DIX: Did you speak with Hitler at that time?
SCHACHT: Hitler addressed me, and that was one of the strangest scenes of my life. We were all standing in line and Hitler passed everyone by rather quickly. When he saw me, he came up to me with a triumphant smile and extended his hand in a cordial manner, something which I had not seen from him for a long time, and he said to me, "Now, Herr Schacht, what do you have to say now?" Then, of course, he expected me to congratulate him or express my admiration or a similar sentiment, and to admit that my prognostication about the war and about the disaster of the war was wrong, for he knew my attitude about the war quite exactly. It was extremely hard for me to avoid such an answer and I searched my mind for something else to say, finally replying: "I can only say to you, 'God protect you.' " That was the only significant conversation which I had that day. I believed the best way to have kept my distance was through just such a completely neutral and inconsequential remark.
DR. DIX: Well...
SCHACHT: But perhaps you would like me to refer to the individual gentlemen, and I can tell you with this exception just when I spoke to these gentlemen for the last time.
DR. DIX: Himmler?
SCHACHT: Himmler, I would judge that perhaps I talked to him last in 1936.
DR. DIX: Hess?
SCHACHT: Hess-of course I am not referring to the conversations here in the prison. I had not spoken with Hess for years before the beginning of the war.
DR. DIX: Ley?
SCHACHT: Ley, I had not seen him since the beginning of the war.
DR. DIX: Ribbentrop?
SCHACHT: I saw Ribbentrop last after my being thrown out of the Reichsbank, because I had to talk with him about the imminent journey to India, and that must have been, I would judge, February 1939. I have not talked with him since.
DR. DIX: Rosenberg?
SCHACHT: Rosenberg, always aside from this reception of Hitler's, perhaps not since 1936.
DR. DIX: Frick?
SCHACHT: I perhaps saw Frick last in the year 1938.
DR. DIX: Schirach?
SCHACHT: I did not even know Schirach.
DR. DIX: Speer?
SCHACHT: I talked with Speer for the last time-and I can tell you this exactly-when I went to the World Exposition in Paris in the year 1937.
DR. DIX: Of course, you are always referring to the time before you were taken prisoner?
SCHACHT: Yes, of course, naturally here I have...
DR. DIX: Sauckel?
SCHACHT: Not since the beginning of the war.
DR. DIX: Seyss-Inquart?
SCHACHT: Seyss-Inquart, I would judge that I spoke to him for the last time in 1936, when I visited a colleague in the National Bank in Austria.
DR. DIX: Kaltenbrunner?
SCHACHT: I saw Kaltenbrunner for the first time here at the prison.
DR. DIX: We will refer to Hitler later. Frank is still missing.
SCHACHT: I saw Frank last perhaps 1937 or 1938.
DR. DIX: Most likely at the occasion of the speech you mentioned yesterday?
SCHACHT: Yes, possibly also afterwards at an official reception, but I do not believe that I saw him after 1938.
DR. DIX: Now, how about the leading men of the Wehrmacht, Keitel, for instance?
SCHACHT: I never had any contact with Keitel. I perhaps saw him at some social gathering, but never after 1938.
DR. DIX: Jodl?
SCHACHT: I made Herr Jodl's acquaintance here in the prison.
DR. DIX: Doenitz?
SCHACHT: I met Doenitz for the first time here in the prison.
DR. DIX: Raeder?
SCHACHT: Herr Raeder, I believe I have known him for quite some time. In the beginning we exchanged occasional visits within the family, visits of a semiofficial character but always on a friendly basis; however, I believe that I have also not seen him or talked to him since 1938.
DR. DIX: Brauchitsch?
SCHACHT: I have not talked with Brauchitsch since 1939, or since 1938, since the Fritsch affair.
DR. DIX: How about Halder?
SCHACHT: As you know, I saw Halder in connection with the Putsch in the fall of 1938 but not after that.
DR. DIX: How often did you see Hitler after your dismissal as President of the Reichsbank?
SCHACHT: After my dismissal as President of the Reichsbank?
DR. DIX: Since January 1939.
SCHACHT: I saw him once more in January 1939 because I had to discuss my future activity, et cetera , with him. And on that occasion he asked me-he knew that I had long wished to take an extensive journey-that I might avail myself of this opportunity to take this journey now, so there would not be so much talk about my leaving the Reichsbank. Then we agreed on the trip to India. On that occasion I also saw Goering for the last time. And then-after my return in August, I did not see him again-then the war came, during the course of which I saw him twice. Shall I tell you about those two occasions?
DR. DIX: Yes.
SCHACHT: I saw him once in February 1940. At that time various American magazines and periodicals had requested me to write articles on Germany's interpretation of the situation, her desires, and her position in general. I had the inclination to do this, but because we were at war, I naturally could not do so without first informing the Foreign Minister. The Foreign Minister advised me that he had nothing against my writing an article for an American periodical, but that before sending off this article, he wanted to have the article submitted for censorship. Of course that did not appeal to me-I had not even thought of that-and, consequently, I did not write this article. However, there were further inquiries from America and I said to myself, "It is not sufficient for me to talk with the Foreign Minister, I must go to Hitler in this matter." So, with that aim, I called on Hitler, who received me very soon after my request, and I told him at that time, among other things, just what my experience with Herr Von Ribbentrop had been, and I further told him that I thought it might be quite expedient to write these articles; and that it seemed vital to me to have constantly someone in America, who by means of the press, et cetera , could enlighten public opinion as to Germany and her interests. Hitler was favorably impressed with this suggestion of mine and said to me, "I shall discuss this matter with the Foreign Minister." Consequently, this entire matter came to naught. Then, later, through the good offices of my Codefendant, Funk, who probably had a discussion at that time with Ribbentrop about this matter, I tried to get at least an answer from Ribbentrop. This answer, given to Funk, was to the effect that it was still too early for a step of that sort. And that was my visit in 1940. Then I saw Hitler again in February of 1941...
DR. DIX: Pardon my interruption. So that we can avoid all misunderstandings, if Hitler had given you permission that you could have gone to America, just what would your activities have been? Tell us very briefly. I want no misunderstanding.
SCHACHT: First of all, I had not proposed going myself; I rather made a general suggestion. But, naturally, I would have been very glad to go to America for I saw a possibility. . .
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think it is material to know what he would have done if something had happened which did not happen.
DR. DIX: I just wanted to preclude any misunderstanding. I said that misunderstandings-Well let us drop the subject. [Turning to the defendant.] Then, let us go on to your second visit.
SCHACHT: In 1941, in February, I called on Hitler once more because of a private affair. The year before my wife had died and now I intended to remarry. As Minister without Portfolio, which I still was, I naturally had to inform the Reich Chancellor and head of the State of my intention and I called on him for that reason. There was no political discussion on this occasion. As I was going to the door, he asked me, "At one time you had the intention, or you advised me, that someone should go to America. It is probably too late for that, now." I replied immediately, "Of course, it is too late for that now." And that was the only remark of a political nature made. The conversation dealt mainly with my marriage, and since then I did not see Hitler any more.
DR. DIX: And now your relations with Goering?
SCHACHT: I did not see Goering either since 1939.
DR. DIX: Now, I am turning to a point which has been repeatedly stressed by the Prosecution, that is, the propaganda value of your participation at Party rallies, and I would like to remind you of what Mr. Justice Jackson has already mentioned in his opening statement. I am translating from the English because I have no German text: "Does anyone believe that Hjalmar Schacht, seated in the first row at the Nazi Party Rally of 1935 and wearing the Party emblem, was only included in the film for the purpose of making an artistic effect? This great thinker, in lending his name to this threadbare undertaking, gave it respectability in the eyes of every hesitating German." Will you please state your opinion on this?
SCHACHT: First of all, I would like to make a few minor corrections. In 1935 I did not have a Party emblem. Secondly, Germans who were hesitating were no longer of any importance in 1935, for Hitler's domination had been firmly established by 1935. There were only those people who were turning away from Hitler but none who were still coming to him. And then, I must really consider it as a compliment that I am called a figure of importance, a great thinker, and so forth; but I believe that the reasons for my being and working in the Hitler Cabinet have been set forth by me in sufficient detail, so that I need not go into that any more. The fact that in the first years especially I could not very well absent myself from the Party rallies is understandable, I believe, for they were Hitler's principal display of show and ostentation for the outside world, and not only did his ministers participate in the Party rallies but also a great many other representative guests. May I add just a few more words? I stayed away from the later Party rallies. For example, the Party Rally of 1935 mentioned by the Chief Prosecutor. That was the Party rally-and this is why I happen to remember it-at which the Nuremberg Laws against the Jews were proclaimed, and at the time I was not even in Nuremberg. I attended the Party Rally in 1933 and in 1934. I am not certain whether I attended it in 1936 or 1937. I rather believe that I attended in 1936. I was decidedly missing at the later rallies and the last visit that I made at the Party Rally, which I have just mentioned, I attended only on "Wehrmacht Day."