dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Kerrl was Lutze's uncle, was he not?
SCHAEFER: I know that he was a relative of Lutze; what relative I do not know.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: And he was a very fervent Nazi, too, was he not-Kerrl?
SCHAEFER: Oh, yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you not talk with him about these concentration camps, these other concentration camps? You were the commandant of the first concentration camp at Oranienburg. Didn't you talk to him about the others that were springing up, the other concentration camps?
SCHAEFER: No.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you talk to Görtnerabout them?
SCHAPER: There was no reason for that, either. I should like to explain in this connection that it was just the Prussian Minister of Justice, Kerrl, who after numerous visits to Oranienburg selected me on the basis of the fact that Oranienburg appeared to be under a decent and orderly command and, at that time, appointed me to be commandant of the penitentiary camps.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: We will come to that in a minute. I am suggesting to you now that it was just because of the interest that Kerrl took in you that he did in fact appoint you to your position with the "Strafgefangenenlager," later. It was just because of that I am suggesting that you might have talked the whole problem out with him. Did you or did you not?
SCHAEFER: Only insofar as it concerned the Camp Oranienburg.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I see.
SCHAEFER: I remember ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you talk to Count Helldorf, the Police President, about the general problem of concentration camps?
SCHAEFER: Also only insofar as it concerned Oranienburg, and in that case, extensively.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I see. Now you say that none of these terrors and atrocities went on in Oranienburg; is that right?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, I have here an affidavit which Rudolf Diels has sworn this morning since you started your evidence, and I will read a little of it to you, and you can tell me if it is true or not. My Lord, this is Document Number 976; it becomes Exhibit GB-595. [Turning to the witness.] Rudolf Diels says: "I received, from various individuals, complaints about ill treatment by SA men in concentration camps. I learned that SA guards had badly ill-treated the following persons in the Concentration Camp Oranienburg: Mr. Ebert, son of the former Reichspräsident; Ernst Heilmann, the leader of the Prussian Social Democrats; Reichstag President Paul Loebe; and Oberpr5sident Lukaschek." Then he goes on to say: "I myself gained confirmation of these ill-treatments on the occasion of an inspection tour through Camp Oranienburg. At that time the commandant was SA Fuehrer Sdh5fer. For a short time, conditions improved after my intervention; then they deteriorated again. I myself did not succeed in removing Schider, since he was backed by the SA Leadership." Is that true or is it not? Did your men ill-treat Herr Ebert, Herr Heilmann, Paul Loebe, and Lukaschek? Did they ill-treat them or did they not?
SCHAEFER: May I be permitted to give the following explanation on this point ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Say yes or no.
SCHAEFER: That I cannot do.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Kindly give an explanation.
SCHAEFER: I cannot make a statement in that form. Herr Loebe was never an inmate of Oranienburg; Herr Lukaschek, to my knowledge, was never an inmate of Oranienburg either. Herr Diels is definitely mistaken in these cases. It is true, however, that the son of the Reich President, Ebert, was an inmate, and it is also true that Herr Heilmann was an inmate there. But I should like to explain that both of those gentlemen, Ebert as well as Heilmann, were maltreated by other inmates after their arrival, and I personally saw to it that they were separated from the group of inmates who had maltreated them. Ebert was soon released, after a few weeks of internment. He and Heilmann never complained to me personally. I learned of their ill-treatment at the hands of other inmates from a third party and I took steps immediately to prevent such things from happening again.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You said before the Commission, Witness, that it was your endeavor in the Oranienburg Concentration Camp to try to give the inmates a life consistent with human dignity. Do you remember saying that to the Commissioner, "a life consistent with human dignity"?  And is this the kind of life you gave to Ebert and Heilmann? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I presume the answer is yes, is it not?
SCHAEFER: I cannot answer the question so simply, either.  I did not say that for Heilmann and Ebert I brought about conditions consistent with human dignity, but I distinctly remember saying just now that I saw to it that they were not subjected to further maltreatment at the hands of the other inmates.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I did not ask you what you said just now; I asked you what you said before the Commission. And you said before the Commission that you endeavored to give the inmates a "life consistent with human dignity," did you not?
SCHAEFER: Yes, of course.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Do you remember saying it or not?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you give Heilmann and Ebert a life consistent with human dignity?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You did?
SCHAEFER: I never withheld from them anything consistent with human dignity. Of course, they led a life like that of any other inmate in a camp of that sort.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Yes, but you said...
SCHAEFER: And it is surely quite understandable ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You know that this was supposed to be a camp for prominent persons in considerable numbers, according to Your own evidence, and you said that you wanted to give them an a life of human dignity. But let us not waste any time on this. Let me show you your own book. My Lord, that is Document Number 2824-PS, and it is Exhibit USA-423. That is the book written by the witness, entitled Oranienburg Concentration Camp, published in 1934. I want you to look first of all, Witness, at Page 23.
SCHAEFER: Yes, I have the page.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, there is a page where you were writing in rather a sarcastic vein about the people who came into the camps. Do you seethe very short passage where you say-and I think this sums up perhaps your whole attitude as to the object of your camp: "The moment had at last come when our old SA men could refresh the memory of some of these provocateurs who had been especially in the foreground politically." Do you see that? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, the translation may not be exactly as it comes in your book; but do you see the passage? It is marked between brackets.
SCHAEFER: Yes, I have found the passage.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, what do you mean by your old SA men refreshing the memories of some of these provocateurs? I thought you said just now that it was the other inmates of the concentration camps who refreshed their memory. It is your own SA men, is it not, who refreshed the memory of Ebert and Heilmann?
SCHAEFER: I would like to ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, you wrote it, you know. Let me refresh your memory a bit. Turn to Page 173. My Lord, I am sorry that these passages have not been translated. I only had them looked up this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: You ought to let him answer the other question you put to him on Page 23.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I beg Your Lordship's pardon. I did not realize he wanted to say something. Witness, you wanted to say something on the passage on Page 23. Will you?
SCHAEFER: Yes, yes. This sentence is taken out of its context. To understand this sentence clearly, one would have to read the whole paragraph. The way in which it is taken out of its context and please do not misunderstand me-it becomes, in your sense, in the sense of the Prosecution ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, give the Tribunal briefly the sense of the context. Tell us what the sense of the context is.
SCHAEFER: I cannot, of course, explain the whole context, since you only read this one sentence to me. But I should like to say one thing, that when I spoke of human dignity, I did not mean it in an ambiguous but in the perfectly straightforward sense; and also that this sentence, taken out of its context, does not prove the opposite.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, I will leave that passage then. Will you now turn to Page...
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean, what is the context, what is the context from which it is torn? What do you mean by "refreshing their memories"?
SCHAEFER: May it please the High Tribunal, may I perhaps for my own information quickly reread the context. I no longer have my book so, completely in mind, and to answer this question, I must flrst read through these lines; then perhaps I can give the answer which Your Lordship desires.
THE PRESIDENT: You are saying, are you not, you don't know what you mean by "refreshing their memories"?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Let me help you a little by referring you to another passage not very far away from that. Just turn to Page 25, and you will see a passage in between brackets there. "Rarely have I seen such marvellous educators as my old SA men, some of whom were themselves of proletarian origin and who took on with extraordinary devotion these Communist swashbucklers who acted in a particularly insolent manner." Isn't refreshing the memory of the provocateurs the same thing really as the education-the marvellous education which your old SA men gave to them? What is the education? If you don't know what you mean by "refreshing their memories," what did you mean by "marvellous education"?
SCHAEFER: I understand your meaning-you expect me to admit that maltreatment actually did take place. I think I understood you correctly, but I should like to state ...
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question, please. The question is: What did you mean by the education that you last spoke of?
SCHAEFER: I mean an education through personal example, not an education through maltreatment or similar misdeeds.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Look back again to Page 23, and you will see another passage in brackets. "To conceal.. ." Page 23, have you got it?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: To the effect, "To conceal the fact that some of the prisoners had not been treated too gently, meanwhile, would be stupid as well as completely incomprehensible; incomprehensible inasmuch as such treatment was in accordance with an urgent necessity." What was the urgent necessity of not treating the prisoners too gently? Are you going to say it was purely disciplinary treatment? It is the same page as the first bracket I read, you know, from the same page as "refreshing their memory." Well, I will leave that passage and turn now to Page 173.
SCHAEFER: May I give you an answer to this? I wrote quite freely and openly about these matters in this book, and I do not wish to deny that there were a very few isolated cases in which it became necessary to treat inmates who acted in a certain way-to treat such inmates accordingly. r have no reason to conceal now, and I did not conceal in my book, that such incorrigible rowdies -- I have no other name for them -- had of course to be taken to task accordingly.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You were writing your book in some spirit of exultation over a Nazified Germany in 1934, weren't you? Turn to Page 173 ...
SCHAEFER: I should like to say something on this point too ...
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to know how you did treat them. You said in certain cases inmates had to be treated accordingly. "Accordingly" meaning, I suppose, not too gently; is that what you meant?
SCHAEFER: My Lord, the question ran simply be answered in this way: If an inmate believed-and there were such cases-that he had to impose his own will by means of brutality, then it was my duty to call his attention emphatically to the fact that at that moment he did not have the right to do so.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Tell the Tribunal what it was-be brief, but tell the Tribunal what it was that you had particularly against Ebert and Heilmann. What was your complaint against t hem that needed treatment?'
SCHAEFER: Ebert and Heilmann aid not receive any special treatment in that sense, and we had no reason whatever for treating them in any special way. They did not receive any special treatment, as I said, but ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Go on.
SCHAEFER: Both of them were treated in a normal fashion, and they cannot claim that they received any other treatment. At any rate, I know of none.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Let's see what the normal fashion was. Turn to Page 173. Have you got Page 173? Read the part in brackets.
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I will read the translation: "And then next day, in fatigue dress, Ebert with a shovel and Heilmann with a broom, ready for work in the forecourt of the camp. Nothing was so comforting to the prisoners in the camp as the sight of their prominent fellow-internees going to work in the same way. They were on a par with them." That is what you call the same treatment, the normal treatment, was it?
SCHAEFER: Every inmate of the camp received fatigue clothing for work to save his own clothing. Each one received trousers and a coat and we did not and could not make an exception in the case of Ebert and Heilmann. Moreover, as far as I remember today, both of them asked to participate in manual labor, a request which was granted them.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You know, I suppose, that Heilmann eventually died a cripple in a concentration camp, don't you?
SCHAEFER: No, I do not know that.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You and your SA men created and operated Oranienburg as a result of orders issued originally by Guering, did you not, as Minister of the Interior for Prussia?  That is where your orders came from, through SA channels?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: And you have told the Tribunal that the SA who were looking after the camp under you were put under the orders of the Police, and that they, in fact, became deputy policemen for the purpose, is that your evidence?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Tell me this. Why do you suppose that Goering chose SA men to do this job? Was it because the ordinary police would not do it?
SCHAEFER: No. A little while ago I explained that the police forces at our disposal were not sufficient to insure a revolution without bloodshed, which the Fuehrer had demanded in his order, and for this purpose therefore the Prussian Ministry of the Interior used the selected SA men as auxiliary police.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Supposing that the ordinary police had been sufficient, are you telling the Tribunal that if the ordinary police had run these concentration camps at Oranienburg, Wuppertal, and Hohenstein -- are you telling the Tribunal that these excesses would have occurred if the ordinary police would have run them? Would you even have had these isolated incidents that you talked about if the ordinary police would have run them?
SCHAEFER: There were police officials * in Oranienburg from the first day of the camp's existence. I do not know how it was at Wuppertal, but I should like to say that no SA man or SA leader did so on who participated in any isolated instance of an outrage the strength of -an order, but on his own account. His action was not covered by any order, and it did not protect him from the punishment which he received.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I suggest to you, Witness, the SA were chosen to run Oranienburg for the very simple reason that the SA alone could be relied on by the Movement to run it on sufficiently brutal lines. Do you agree, or don't you?
SCHAEFER: N( , I cannot agree with you.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: If you have forgotten what Goering thought about the ordinary police at that time, let me read you a short passage from a speech he made on the third of March 1933, which must have been just exactly about the same time that he gave the order to found Oranienburg Camp. My Lord, it is Document Number 1856-PS; it is in Document Book 16 a at Page 28, and it is Exhibit USA-437. [Turning to the witness.] Now this is what Goeringsaid just at the time that he was ordering Oranienburg to be started by you. He said: "Fellow Germans, my measures will not be crippled by any judicial thinking. My measures will not be crippled by any bureaucracy. Here I do not have to administer justice; my mission is only to destroy and exterminate, nothing more. This struggle will be a struggle against chaos and I shall not conduct it with the power of any police; a bourgeois state might have done that. Certainly I shall use the power of the State and the Police to the utmost, my dear Communists, so do not draw any false conclusions. But the struggle to the death, in which my fist will lie heavily upon your necks, I shall conduct with those down there-and they are the Brown Shirts." Did you ever hear or read that speech at that time? It doesn't look as if Goering thought much of the ordinary police when he ordered Oranienburg to be started, does it? Are you telling the Tribunal that after that speech Goering intended to create a camp which would be mild and humane and just, as you tried to describe in your evidence?
SCHAEFER: I do not know this speech, but I see that it is said to have been delivered on 3 March 1933. At that time Camp Oranienburg was not in existence, it was not then about to be set up and it had not been planned.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: It came into existence the same month.
SCHAEFER: At the end of March, yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, Witness, I put it to you that the truth about Oranienburg is this,- in a sentence: When you first established Oranienburg Concentration Camp it was an ordinary brutal SA concentration camp, but late in the summer of 1933 you decided to use it as a show camp to demonstrate to foreign countries how mild and just the concentration camp system was. Is that right or wrong?
SCHAEFER: No, that is not correct; it is not correct in any way. I could today -- and in my present situation, it will carry most weight if I say so publicly -- I could call as witnesses here the first inmates of the Camp Oranienburg who were living there at the time I was commandant; I could call them to testify that I was not prepared top create a model camp simply for the sake of outward appearances. A decent direction of a camp of that sort represented my innermost convictions, and I should Eke to say that this was not merely a question of common sense, but a matter of feeling. And may I add another thing: I went through the political struggle in Germany, which was very bitter, and I wen knew that by creating martyrs one does not strengthen one's own position. It is quite logical, therefore, that I could never take an interest in creating martyrs.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, didn't you write your book as part of this idea of having a show camp to convince foreigners? Isn't that part of the idea of your book? It was written to convince foreigners anyway, was it not? You said so to the Commissioner, you know.
SCHAPER: Quite true, I said so; but may I complete this explanation? I said at that time exactly what I am saying now. I wrote this book deliberately to refute the lying reports-and I cannot call them anything else-which had appeared about this camp abroad, to refute them as a matter of duty. That, in my opinion, was a right which I was entitled to claim.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Who commissioned you to write this book? Was it Goering? Did Goeringsuggest that you should write this book?
SCHAEFER: I can say in all frankness that no one commissioned me to write this book, but...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you consult Goering?
SCHAEFER: No. I think that Herr Goeringprobably sees me for the very first time today; and I am seeing him for the first time at such close quarters. We never discussed these matters.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did you consult the Prussian Ministry of Justice when you wrote your book?
SCHAEFER: No. I have already stated quite clearly that I did not discuss this book with a third party in any way, but that I wrote it because an enormous number of these newspaper reports were sent to me, and because I myself thought it necessary to vindicate Camp Oranienburg. I considered it to be my duty ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, tell me about these newspaper reports. Were they adverse criticisms of Oranienburg only, or of other camps? Was Oranienburg the only one they criticized? Perhaps it was.
SCHAEFER: These articles? I did not hear the translation of the first part of your question.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You told us that you had many articles in the press which were adverse and which required refuting. Were they adverse to Oranienburg only, or to other camps?
SCHAEFER: Naturally I could only reply to the articles which dealt with Oranienburg; I did not concern myself with other camps.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I did not ask you that. Were there any other articles about other camps? Did you see any articles about other camps?
SCHAEFER: I do not recall any. I received only articles which concerned Oranienburg.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Who sent them to you then? Goering?
SCHAEFER: They came from all sorts of people, from various classes of the population and also from foreigners who were interested in bringing their press to my attention.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well now, one of the articles was written in The Times newspaper, the English paper, was it not? And you reproduced it in your book. That article was very adverse to Oranienburg. My Lord, there are extracts from that article in Document Book 16a, at Page 35, and it is Document Number 2824(a)-PS. [Turning to the witness.] I just want to point out to you two or three short extracts, because I am going to suggest to you that they were perfectly true-this is at Page 112 in your book, I think: "We got to Oranienburg Concentration Camp. We had to stand fallen in at attention for over three hours. Anyone who tried to sit down was beaten. Each of us got a small mug of coffee and a piece of black bread, our first food that day." Then, a bit further on: "Prominent prisoners were beaten more often than the others, but everyone got his full share of blows." And a little further on: "They also sometimes rubbed black shoe polish into the prisoners all over, and checked up next day to see if it had all been washed off." And further on again: "Most of the prisoners were not allowed to mention the blows they had received, but every night we could hear their cries. Those who were released had to sign two papers, a white one which stated that the treatment in the camp was good, and a blue one." Now that article also mentioned, among the well-known prisoners, a Dr. Levy.  Is that correct?  Do you remember Dr. Levy?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: And in your book, after publishing this Times article, you published a letter from Dr. Levy to The Times on 25 September 1933 -- that was about six days after the article -- in which Dr. Levy denied that there were any atrocities at Oranienburg.  Can you find that letter?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: That letter of Dr. Levy's was written in Potsdam, was it not?  It says "Potsdam" underneath the envelope.
SCHAEFER: Yes, I can see that in the book it says, "Potsdam, the 25th of September." But may I explain something in this connection? This article which you read in extracts just now refers to boys of the social welfare organizations of the Jewish community in Berlin, who were taken to Oranienburg at the time. These boys were really criminal elements of which the Jewish community had rid itself by paying the necessary amount of money to put them in a special ,educational home. It is absolutely incorrect ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: What has that got to do with Dr. Levy? I said, wa s Dr. Levy's letter written from Potsdam? Are you telling the Tribunal that that letter was written voluntarily, or did you get it out of him by threats? You could have got it out of him by threats easily, could you not? You could, couldn't you?