dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. RUDOLF DIX (Counsel for the Defendant Schacht): These subjects of evidence have not only been proved by Gisevius; but, as far as the purpose of armament and the inner attitude towards the regime are concerned, has also been proved by every affidavit submitted; as far as the beginning of the resistance movement and the contact with Kluge are concerned, that has been proved by the witness Focke; the affidavit of Schmidt proves the attempts to avert war at the last.. ~
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Dix, I think you must make up your mind whether you want to make an application or not. If you want to make an application, you must make it in writing. The Tribunal is not inclined to entertain possible precautionary applications which are not in writing.
DR. DIX: I intend to leave it to the decision of the Tribunal. I am merely making a suggestion because it is my personal view ...
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has made a rule that applications must be in writing. That rule has been applied to every other counsel appearing on behalf of the defendants. The Tribunal thinks that rule should be adhered to by you too. Therefore, if you wish to make an application you should make it in writing.
DR. DIX: Very well, then I shall gladly make my application in 'writing. Does the Tribunal wish me to indicate now briefly what it will contain, or is it sufficient merely to state my intention of making an application in writing?
THE PRESIDENT: I do not see any reason for departing from the rules.
DR. DIX: Then I shall make my application in writing.
THE PRESIDENT: I have two announcements to make. In the first place, with reference to the application of Dr. Seidl, who does not appear to be present, the Tribunal has had a report, dated the 17th of August 1946, on the condition of the Defendant Hess from Captain G. M. Gilbert, the prison psychologist. This report will be communicated to the Defendant Hess' counsel, to the Prosecution, and to the Press. The Tribunal will not call for any further report upon the Defendant Hess at the present time. In the next place, with reference to the application by Dr. Stahmer, dated the 14th of August 1946, the Tribunal will treat this application as an exceptional case, and they will allow the Defendant G6ring to be recalled to the witness box to deal with the evidence upon experiments which was given after the Defendant G6ring gave his evidence, and upon no other subject. The Tribunal rejects the application to call another witness, and the Tribunal will hear the Defendant G6ring in the witness box now. [The Defendant Goering resumed the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: You understand, Defendant, of course, that you are still under oath?
GOERING: Yes, of course.
DR. STAHMER: Were you the President of the Reich Research Council?
GOERING: Yes.
DR.STAHMER: When and by whom was the Reich Research Council established? What were its tasks?
GOERING: As far as I remember it was established by me either in 1942 or at the beginning of 1943. It embraced every sphere of science, physics, chemistry, technology, medicine, and philosophy and united in itself the various institutes of the State, the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, the institutes of the universities, the economic research institutes, which were an carrying out the same kind of research work. Commissions were formed in every sphere, and together they saw to it that research in a particular field was not carried out on parallel lines but as a joint project. It was also their task to correlate the various spheres of research work, such as physics and chemistry. At the head of each one of these commissions was a plenipotentiary. A prime consideration of all this research work was, of course, the application of results to the necessities of war, and for that purpose also special representatives were appointed. The Reich Research Council literally assigned thousands of research tasks and since I personally am, of course, not an expert, I was head of the -whole institution only to lend it my authority and especially to provide the necessary funds. These tasks were allotted under the title "Reich Marshal of the German Reich, President of the Reich Research Council."
DR. STAHMER: What position within the Air Force, and what tasks did the Medical Inspectorate of the Air Force have?
GOERING: It had the task, as in all other branches of the Armed Forces, of taking care of the hygiene and health of the Luftwaffe, and of all other tasks in that sphere.
DR. STAHMER: Did the Medical Inspectorate have any connections with the Reich Research Council? '
GOERING: Naturally it had loose connections with the Reich Research Council in order to obtain the results of the clinical and medical research work and to communicate to the Research Council its own wishes on research tasks in which it was particularly interested.
DR. STAHMER: Did you assign the Reich Research Council or the Medical Inspectorate of the Air Force or any other authority at any time tasks for medical experiments on detainees in concentration camps, for example Dachau, or any other camps?
GOERING: I should like to say quite clearly on this point that there cannot possibly exist a single letter which I signed, and that not a single person can possibly allege that I, myself, at any time whatsoever assigned a single task or gave even a hint in that respect.
DR. STAHMER: Did you have knowledge of the fact that a certain Dr. Rascher, or an Oberfeldarzt of  the Air Force, Dr. Seltz, carried out medical experiments on detainees in the concentration camp of Dachau?
GOERING: Dr. Rascher was, as I heard here in Nuremberg and as I gathered from the documents, a medical officer of the Air Force Reserve. Since later on, as appears from his correspondence, he was apparently not successful with his experiments, he left the Air Force and became a medical officer in the SS. I myself have never seen or met him, nor do I know the second name which you mentioned; and I do not even know whether he was a medical officer of the Reserve or on active service.
DR. STAHMER: Did you give to any agency, or did you instruct anyone to give to any agency, orders to carry out subpressure chamber experiments on detainees in concentration camps?
GOERING: I have already said that I did not do so. It is obvious that if anybody had approached me, shall we say from the Medical Inspectorate or from the Reich Research Council, and had told me that it would be serving a useful purpose if we carried out -research on typhoid or even cancer or in other fields, I would of course have said that that was a very praiseworthy enterprise. But I would never countenance the fact that human beings should be used in an inhuman manner for this purpose. And if someone had told me that experiments with subpressure chambers were going on, I should not have inferred that detainees were being used for the purpose, all the more since I knew that every aviator had to enter a subpressure chamber to test his reaction to such conditions.
DR. STAHMER: Did you commission the Reich Research Council or the Medical Inspectorate of the Air Force or any other authority to carry out experiments for making sea water potable?
GOERING: I have never heard of these experiments. They would have interested me greatly because we as airmen repeatedly discussed this point, not so much as to how to make sea water potable, but as to how an airman- who was adrift in the sea in a lifeboat could obtain drinking water at all, and all airmen were told at that time that there was only one way: that they should have fishing tackle aboard their lifeboats so that they could catch fish and-in a quite primitive way-squeeze the fish with a cloth; under such circumstances that was the only method of obtaining potable water. That is why that point is particularly clear in my memory.
DR. STAHMER: In May 1944 this matter is supposed to have been discussed during 4 conference in the Air Ministry. Did you convene that conference or were you informed of it afterwards?
GOERING: No. Daily conferences of all offices and of all departments were always taking place in the Air Ministry and they could not possibly all have been communicated to me or convened by me from headquarters.
DR. STAHMER: Discussions with the Air Force are supposed to have taken place at Dachau on the same question. Were they ordered by you or did you hear of them?
GOERING: No.
DR. STAHMER: For this purpose the Air Force is said to have made working space available at Dachau. Did you know of this?
GOERING: No, I had no knowledge of this at all.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know a medical officer of the Air Force Reserve, Dr. Denk or Ding?
GOERING: Neither under the name Denk or under the name Ding.
DR. STAHMER: Did you give orders, or did you instruct anyone else to give orders, to carry out freezing experiments which are said to have been carried out by a certain Professor Wolfsloehner, a medical officer of the Air Force Reserve, on detainees at Dachau?
GOERING: No, as far as I remember from the documents Rascher carried out these experiments. Wolfsl6hner is as unknown to me as are the other names. There were thousands of medical officers and Reserve medical officers in the Air Force.
DR. STAHMER: Did you ever commission Dr. Haagen, Professor at the University of Strasbourg, who is said to have been Oberstabsarzt of the Air Force and consulting hygienist, to carry out with all means experiments to combat typhoid?
GOERING: I also gathered from the documents that Dr. Haagen was a medical officer, in the Air Force Reserve, and consulting hygienist not of the Air Force but of an air fleet, that is, a unit of the Air Force. I do not know him, and have never given him a commission; he could obviously be heard on that point at any time. Apart from that, a commission of this sort would certainly have remained in my memory because it would have somewhat astonished me, since I myself was immunized against typhoid three times and I did not think that further research in that sphere was taking place.
DR. STAHMER: Now, how do you explain that the witness Sievers, in a letter addressed to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl and dated May 1944, stated that Professor Haagen had been ordered by the Reich Marshal and President of the Reich Research Council to carry out such experiments?
GOERING: This can be explained as follows: firstly, as I said earlier, the letter heading for all such commissions given by the Reich Research Council was worded: "The Reich Marshal of the German Reich," signature: "The President of the Reich Research Council." It was the custom in Germany that the personal title was given, rather than the office of the person in question; for instance: "The Reich Minister of Finance," not "The Reich Ministry of Finance." Secondly, the witness Sievers himself testified here-and he gave a rather large figure-that tens of thousands of commissions were given under my name without my knowing anything about them; which, indeed, would have been quite impossible. Thirdly, it was well known in the whole of Germany that hardly any name was used as much as mine. If anyone wanted to achieve anything at all, he quite happily wrote "The Reich Marshal desires, orders, or would like to see this or that done." It was for that very reason that in 1944 1 created a special department calculated to prevent the misuse of my name for such matters.
DR. STAHMER: What was your attitude, as a principle, with regard to the carrying out of medical experiments on human beings?
GOERING: I already...
THE PRESIDENT: I think the defendant has already told us what his basic attitude was.
DR. STAHMER: Very well, Mr. President. Then, with reference to this subject, I have no further questions. I must merely reserve the right to put further questions as soon as the witness Schreiber has appeared here. A statement from this witness was submitted to the Tribunal, but it has not yet been introduced in evidence, so that I cannot at this moment deal with it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal doesn't know what you are talking about because the Tribunal has not yet allowed the witness Halder to be called; but you must conclude your examination of the defendant now.
DR. STAHMER: I believe I have been misunderstood, Mr. President, I was speaking of the witness Schreiber. A statement of the witness Schreiber was submitted, and the Tribunal ruled that Schreiber should appear here as a witness. I shall, therefore, have to reserve the right...
THE PRESIDENT: The interpretation came to us as Halder.
DR. STAHMER: No, no-Schreiber, Professor Schreiber of the Russian statement.
THE PRESIDENT: If this Schreiber is brought here in accordance with the Tribunal's order, then no doubt you will have the opportunity of cross-examining. Dr. Stahmer, if you want to put any questions to the Defendant G6ring, you must put them now because the Tribunal doesn't propose to have the defendant recalled again should the witness Dr. Schreiber be produced. Therefore, if you have any questions to put to, the defendant on the subject which Dr. Schreiber might be called to deal with, you must put them now.
DR. STAHMER: Did you never receive from Hitler an order or some special authority to carry out preparations for bacteriological warfare?
GOERING: I have never received authority or an order of the kind mentioned by General Schreiber of the Medical Service in his letter to the Soviet Government.
DR. STAHMER: Did you have -knowledge of the fact that your medical officers were working on preparations of this sort?
GOERING: No, and this letter does not say anything about medical officers, but merely that a Luftwaffe officer...
THE PRESIDENT: One minute. Will you just wait one minute. Go on, Dr. Stahmer. You will confine yourself to the matters with which you have dealt in your written application with reference to Dr. Schreiber.
DR. STAHMER: Did you have knowledge of the fact that the working association "Bacteriological Warfare" existed?
GOERING: That such a working association existed I did not know. What I did know, however, was that as a matter of course defensive measures against bacteriological warfare were discussed. It must not be forgotten that to a certain extent this type of warfare had already been instituted against us by the dropping of destructive potato beetles and so on. Measures were taken, on the one hand, to carry out preparations for defense against such warfare; then possibly I do not know this, but it is quite possible-preparations may have been made to enable us to reply, should the enemy start this bacteriological war.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know Professor Blommen?
GOERING: No.
DR.STAHMER: Then you did not commission him to prepare such measures?
GOERING: That is hardly possible.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution desire to ask any questions?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, I first want to know how much of the witness Sievers' letter you agree with or disagree with. Do you agree that the directions for carrying out the spotted fever experiments were in the hands of the director of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strasbourg, Professor Dr. Haagen, major in the Medical Corps, and consulting hygienist to an air fleet? Js Sievers right in saying that?
GOERING: I have no means of checking that; it is possible.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Now, are you disputing 'that Dr. Haagen was-I quote-"commissioned with this task by the Reich Marshal, the President of the Reich Research Council," or do you again say that you have no means of checking that?
GOERING: I said quite clearly that I know nothing about it; and it is interesting that he also speaks of the Reich Marshal and the President of the Reich Research Council, that is, the heading under which all the thousands of research commissions were given. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FY]FE: To put it quite bluntly, your defense to this is the rubber-stamp defense that your signature on the orders was merely a rubber-stamp for the equivalent signature as President of the Reich Research Council? Is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?
GOERING: No, I am not saying that at all. If my signature was given, then it had its full value; but it was not given. As I said earlier, this was the heading, the letter heading of the tasks set. These task allotments were signed by some subordinate department dealing with these matters. If I signed a letter, I alone assume the responsibility for it. 'It would be only too easy for the Prosecution to put such a letter before me or to question Herr Haagen.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then you say that if instructions went out from the Reich Research Council you knew nothing about them. That is your answer, as I understand it.
GOERING: The details, of course, I did not know, because firstly, that was impossible if only from the point of view of time; my day, too, only had 24 hours. Secondly, I emphasized that I was not an expert in any way, but that my task was to give general instructions to the men working in research, to centralize the research work of every sphere, and to provide the very large funds required.
SIR DAVID MAXWELIFYFE: Did you see, Defendant, the letter goes on to say: "In accordance with his instructions"-which were said to come from the Reich Marshal, the President of the Research Council-"In accordance with his instructions, Dr. Haagen has to report about his work to the Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services."
GOERING: That is possible; it is possible that he was given that ,-order. However, he did not report to me, and the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate did not report to me either., It is for that reason that my defense counsel applied to have the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate appear here as a witness, in order to make this point abundantly clear.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: So that in both these capacities-in these two of your capacities-the Reich Research Council and the Medical Department of the Luftwaffe were both acting without any knowledge of yours? In these experiments which were concerned with the condition of, among others, the service for which you were responsible, you say both of these bodies were acting without your knowledge? That is what you say? Is that right; are you sure. it is right?
GOERING: That is absolutely right. A short explanation, in this connection. Well, you see, it is absolutely...
SIR DAVID MAXWELLFYFE: Just a moment. I would like you to consider one or two points before you commit yourself too deeply to that. Do you know that in May of 1942 Field Marshal Milch was expressing your special thanks to the SS for their co-operation in the altitude experiments? My Lord, that is Document Number 343-PS, and it is the letter that begins, "Dear Wolff." Wolff was one of Himmler's personal staff. If my recollection is correct, he was the liaison between Himmler and Hitler, certainly at one time. And your second man, Defendant, Field Marshal Milch, was expressing the special thanks from the Supreme Commander of the Air Force to the SS for their extensive co-operation in the altitude experiments. Are you saying that Meld Marshal Milch, when he wrote that or when he signed it on behalf of your medical department-was merely expressing a chanson de malaise and was not conveying your thanks to Himmler?
GOERING: Not only am I saying it, but Milch himself testified to that quite clearly while he was in the witness stand; if you will read the record, you will find that he expressly admits that I had no knowledge of these details. Apart from that I must mention that we employed a certain method of correspondence which may perhaps not seem quite fitting here, but it nevertheless existed: if a representative of a Ministry wrote a letter of thanks which was not of a personal nature, he always had to express thanks on behalf of the chief, in the name of the chief, and I believe that rule exists everywhere.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just remind you: what the witness Milch said was that these letters were put in front of him by your medical department. These experiments mainly and greatly concerned the Luftwaffe. Are you saying that the thanks of the Luftwaffe and of the Supreme Commander, yourself, were given without any reference to you at all?
GOERING: Field Marshal Milch. did not say that the letters were put before me, he said they were put before him.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is what I said: I said "before him." I didn't suggest they were put before you at all.
GOERING: It probably came through incorrectly. Then he goes on to say that he expressed his grateful thanks, because the inspectorate had told him that it was no longer interested in the matter since the high-altitude experiments had already been carried out voluntarily by our young medical officers, and he spoke about that at length.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you know, it didn't stop with your young medical officers. Your service provided the equipment for Dachau for these experiments.
GOERING: The translation is not coming through.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will repeat that. It did not stop there. Your service was providing the equipment for these experiments for Dachau. My Lord, the reference to that is Exhibit GB-582, Document Number 2428-PS, which is an affidavit by the detainee Anton Pacholegg, who was at Dachau. He says that the Luftwaffe delivered, here at the concentration camp at Dachau, a cabinet constructed of wood and metal, measuring one meter square and two meters high, and so on. He describes the equipment. [Turning to the defendant.]Are you saying that the supplying of equipment for these experiments at Dachau was done without any reference to you on these particular Air Force experiments?
GOERING: In the first place, it was not the Air Force which was carrying out the experiments at Dachau, it was the medical office of the Air Force Reserve, Dr. Rascher. Whether Dr. Rascher obtained the order to do so from the Medical Inspectorate, and in what form, I do not know. Secondly, it was not wood or various parts which were sent there, but a so-called high-altitude chamber. That is the thing I mentioned before, which every airman had to enter to test the reaction of his body to altitude and pressure conditions. It was not difficult for Rascher, therefore, to go to the inspectorate, to the Technical Inspectorate, and ask for such a chamber without giving exact details of the type of experiments for which he wanted to use it, and whether his experiments entailed any danger for the people subjected to them. Thirdly- should like to stress this again-the Prosecution has repeatedly said, and only lately Justice Jackson in his final speech especially emphasized, that I had my fat fingers in every pie. I want to say that if I held as many offices as I am being accused of having held, then you will understand that I could not have concerned myself with every high-altitude chamber used for experiments.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But did you not concern yourself with the experiments to test the flight clothing for the Luftwaffe when the concentration camp detainees were dressed in various types of flight suits with jackets? I mean, Defendant, you have been a practical airman yourself, with a very gallant record of service in the air in the last war. What I am suggesting to you is that these matters were matters that were not only within your administrative interest in your positions, but they were within your personal interest as an ex-air officer. That is why I am suggesting to you that you would have, and did have, an interest in these experiments. Putting back your memory, are you sure that you don't remember about the experiments on these concentration camp detainees for testing air clothing?
GOERING: Sir David, I am not only absolutely sure that I do not remember, but I am absolutely sure that it was not so. I emphasize that I am not saying I do not remember; I am saying with absolute certainty that this was not so. Secondly, you are quite right: naturally I took the greatest interest in the welfare of my airmen, and also in their clothing. As airmen we repeatedly discussed among ourselves what the best type of combination would be. Had I been told that heatable combinations would be used, then on the strength of my own experience I would have said that I did not want them, because at the end of the last war I myself once wore such a heatable suit with the result that I badly burnt myself.