dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Aside from that, then, you did not know anything about involuntary or forced labor in Germany? Is that your testimony?
MILCH: No. I only knew that ...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Tell us what you did know about and what you did about it.
MILCH: I knew that those people had been recruited and that they had come voluntarily. I knew that many of them were very satisfied, but as time went on and the German military situation deteriorated, discontent began to set in among these foreign workers, although, according to the information which reached my ears, only a small group was affected. I would add that in a general way, we ascribed this ill feeling to the fact that the food for these people was not everything they could wish; consequently, sundry organizations, with Speer's ministry at the head, made efforts to improve their living conditions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have not yet answered my question. Did you know that forced labor was being brought from occupied territories and compelled to work in German industry? Did you know it? Answer that "yes" or "no."
MILCH: I knew that only in the end Frenchmen were forced by their own French Government to come.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that prisoners of war were forced to work in the airplane industry, and were actually forced to man guns? Did you know that?
MILCH: I did hear about it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you heard about it from your fellow officers, did you not?
MILCH: At the moment I cannot say from whom I heard it. I believe there was a group which I think was called "Volunteers." As far as I know it was recruited on a voluntary basis from among those brisoners of war. MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you learn about -- even if you did not participate in it -- the plan for the collection of art treasures from the occupied countries?
MILCH: No. I knew nothing of this plan as it then existed. I first heard about it here in Nuremberg through someof the witnesses. MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: Now I want to ask you some questions about certain exhibits; I refer to Document Number 343-PS, Exhibit USA-463. I will ask to have that exhibit shown to you. [Document 343-PS was subraitted to the witness.]
MILCH: These letters are signed by me and they are also written on my stationery. They must have been drafted by the Medical Inspection department. As I said a few days ago, I no longer remember the contents. I should only like to say that the answers were drafted in such a way as not to lead us, the Air Force, into any difficulties with Herr Himmler. For instance, I never read the statements made by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. They were read by the Medical Inspectorate. In this connection I acted, so to speak, as postman between the SS and our Medical Inspection department.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you testified, on interrogation, you had no recollection of these letters; but on Friday you testified that you made some alterations in one of them before it went out. Do you want to tell us what that alteration was?
MILCH: Yes, some of these letters were submitted to me during my interrogation and it was then that I first remembered it. The changes which I made were merely a matter of courtesy in style, in view of Herr Himmler's extreme susceptibility. I do not think that either of these two letters contains the alteration; that, I believe, was in another letter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It was the other letter in which there was a change, Number 1607?
MILCH: I believe so, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, in your examination, your interrogation, you gave a reason why these were brought to you for signature instead of being signed by the bureau chiefs. Do you remember what that reason was?
MILCH: Yes. I had the impression that the Medical Inspector did not wish to address his refusal to Himmler because he was afraid; whereas Himmler had written to me because he always wrote only either to the Reich Marshal or to me, as he was unacquainted with the organization of the Luftwaffe in this particular sphere, for the Medical Inspector was not subordinate to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I understand from your interrogation that you gave as the reason why these letters were brought to you for signature, that your office was in fear of Himmler and did not want to take the responsibility of writing a letter to him, is that right?
MILCH: Not my office, but I think the Medical Inspection department did not wish to place themselves in an awkward position as concerns Himmler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I think you also said that the officials of that department were afraid of the SS.
MILCH: That is what I wished to express.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were they engaged in any illegal conduct or any activity against the government?
MILCH: I did not understand that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were those people who were afraid ...
MILCH: Who? The Medical Inspection department? No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were responsible officials doing their duty, as far as you know, is that right?
MILCH: Yes, Mr. Justice; but one must bear in mind the things which had come to pass during the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is exactly what I want you to think about and tell about. Why were these people, who were performing their duties in a government office, afraid of Himmler or afraid of the SS? Explain that situation to us.
MILCH: Not afraid of the SS as such, but of the secret police. It was not easy for any of us. We were all convinced that we were being constantly watched, no matter how high our rank. There was probably not a single person concerning whom a dossier was not kept, and many people were subsequently brought to trial as a result of these records. The ensuing difficulties did not affect only these people or other people or me personally; they included everybody right up to the Reich Marshal, who also was affected by them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you mean that from the Reich Marshal right down to the humblest citizen, there was fear of Heinrich Himmler and his organization?
MILCH: Well, the degree of fear may have varied. It was perhaps not so great among those in the highest and in the lowest positions. But things were far more difficult in the intermediate grades, since it was quite clear that the intermediate grades criticized everything that occurred and these criticisms were not tolerated by the authorities at the top.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I take it, from your testimony, that the reputation of the Gestapo was pretty well understood in Germany.
MILCH: Particularly so in the later war years. I could not say how far this feeling was justified, but at all events the feeling was there.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I think you also testified that some high military authorities did resign. I call your attention to your testimony in your interrogation by us about Von Fritsch and Beck. They resigned, didn't they?
MILCH: No, they did not resign. They were removed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were thrown out, is that it?
MILCH: Yes. They were told they were no longer needed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understodd you to testify in your interrogation that even the generals did not dare utter an opinion after those two left.
MILCH: No, I never put it like that. I cannot remember what I said. I should be grateful if I could see the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I have them. I will ask you if you were not asked these questions and gave these answers: "Question: From your knowledge of discussions in army circles among the Air Force and the General Staff people whom you knew, could you form any opinion as to their attitude for the beginning of war? Would they share your view?" The minutes show that you answered: "All officers agreed with me unanimously. All the higher officers agreed with me. A long time ago, in 1937, 1 talked to Field Marshal Von Blomberg about the danger of a war because of the careless policy of our statesmen. At that time we feared that England or France would not tolerate that policy in the long run. On the 1st of November 1937, 1 had a long discussion with Von Blomberg about this matter, and he was of the same opinion."
MILCH: Yes, I remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is true? You were then asked this question:
MILCH: No, they had always been subordinate. The Army was always changed in this respect. The head of the State was at the same time the Supreme Commander.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At the time you were interrogated, your answer was this:
MILCH: Yes, that was my conviction.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [Continuing.] Is that true?
MILCH: That is my opinion.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [Continuing.] Is that right?
MILCH: Correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of what were the high generals in command of the Army afraid, that they did not utter an opinion?
MILCH: The generals would not have had a chance to report anything to Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who would have done anything about it? There were many generals and only one Hitler. Who was going to carry out any orders against them?
MILCH: It was just not possible. Hitler was so powerful that he just turned down other people's objections or else refused to listen to them at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Hitler had the SS, didn't he, and Himmler and Kaltenbrunner?
MILCH: Yes, he had them as well. In addition he had the entire Wehrmacht who had sworn an oath of allegiance to him.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you said in your interrogation that after the 5th of March 1943, Hitler was no longer normal. Did you make that statement?
MILCH: I said that, in my opinion, the Hitler of the later years was not the Hitler of the early period from 1933 until the outbreak of war, and that after the campaign against France a change came over him. I formed this opinion, which was a purely private one, because what he did afterwards was diametrically opposed to what he had previously taught; and that I could not consider normal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you want us to understand that Goering continued to act as second man in the Reich and to take the orders from an abnormal man from that period on? Is that your story?
MILCH: The abnormality was not such that one could say, "this man is out of his senses," or, "this man is insane"; it would not have to reach that stage. It often happens that abnormalities are such that they escape both the public and the nearest associates. I believe that a doctor would be better able to give information on that subject. I talked to medical men about it at the time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it was their opinion that he was abnormal?
MILCH: That there was a possibility of abnormality was admitted by a doctor whom I knew well, personally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: A doctor of repute in Germany?
MILCH: No, he is not very well known. He never told anybody else. It would not have been wise to do so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If he had, he would have been put in a concentration camp, I suppose?
MILCH: Or worse..
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And if you had expressed your opinion that he was abnormal, you probably would have been put there also, would you not?
MILCH: I would have been shot immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you never dared to tell your superior, Goering, your opinion about Hitler?
MILCH: I only once had an opportunity of stating my views about the war to Hitler. That was the only time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You informed Goering of your opinion?
MIILCH: I talked to Goering. What I have just mentioned was a conversation I had with Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not -- I think you misunderstood me -- you do not mean that you informed Hitler that you considered him abnormal; I am sure you do not mean that.
MILCH: No, I did not tell Goering that either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is what I said. You knew, did you not, that Goering, who was your immediate superior, was issuing the anti-Jewish decrees of the Reich Government?
MILCH: No, I did not know that. As far as I know, they emanated from a different office, from ...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Didn't you know that the decrees which excluded Jews and half-Jews from holding posts were issued by Goering?
MILCH: No, I did not know that. As far as I know, these regulations emanated from the Ministry of the Interior, which also would have been the proper department to deal with them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: As a matter of fact, did you not have to take certain proceedings to avoid the effect of those decrees yourself?
MILCH: No. I know what you mean. That was a question that had been cleared long ago.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How long before that was it cleared?
MILCH: As far as I know, in 1933.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: 1933, just after the Nazis came to power?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And at that time Goering had you -- we will have no misunderstanding about this -- Goering made you what you call a full Aryan; was that it?
MILCH: I do not think he made me one; I was one.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, he had it established, let us say?
MILCH: He had helped me in clearing up this question, which was not clear.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is, your mother's husband was a Jew; is that correct?
MILCH: It was not said so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You had to demonstrate that none of your ancestry was Jewish; is that correct?
MILCH: Yes; everybody had to do that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And  -- in your case that involved your father, your alleged father;  -- is that correct?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you, certainly were informed from the very beginning of the attitude of the Nazi Party to Jews, were you not?
MILCH: No, I was not informed. Everybody had to submit his papers, and the certificate of one of my grandparents could not be found.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you were never required to do that under the Weimar Republic?
MILCH: No, there was no such question at that time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that this whole question was raised by the Nazi Party, of which you became a member in 1933; in other words at about the time this happened. Is that right?
MILCH: I had applied for membership earlier, before this question came up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you apply for membership?
MILCH: I do not know exactly --  think in March or April.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you had to clear up this question before you could become a momber; wasn't that the point?
MILCH: That had been cleared up in the meantime. I cannot say exactly when.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In 1933 you became aware of the concentration camp, the first one?
MILCH: Yes, I believe in 1933 there was a public announcement about it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And later, as I understand you, you heard so many rumors about concentration camps, that you thought the matter ought to be investigated; that you ought to go there and see?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was it that these rumors became so persistent that you thought the matter should be investigated?
MILCH: That must have been at the end of 1934 and in the spring of 1935, because, if I remember correctly, I was in Dachau in the spring of 1935.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those rumors persisted throughout the entire period until the collapse of Germany, didn't they?
MILCH: Those rumors which led me to ask to visit Dachau were really only current in the circle of the higher officers, who passed them on to me. I had little contact with other circles; I cannot say to what extent the thing was generally discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, among the higher officers with whom you associated, the rumor went about that these concentration camps were the scene of atrocities as early as 1935. 1 understood you to say that; am I correct?
MILCH: No, not exactly. I said there ...
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, now you tell us what it was that you went to investigate.
MILCH: I was quite unable to conduct any investigation; all I could do was to see for myself -- in order to dispel the many rumors -- whether it was true that many people were shut up there who should not have been there at all, innocent people who were brought there for political reasons only. At that time there was much talk about many members of the so-called "Reaction" having been sent there. Some officers were very concerned about this, and I told them that I would go and see for myself to try to gain a personal insight.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not need to go to Dachau to find that out, did you? You could have asked Goering; didn't you know that?
MILCH: To go where?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you ever ask Goering who were these people who were sent there?
MILCH: No. I did not talk to Goering about that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not know that Goering publicly said that political enemies of the regime were going to be sent there; that was what they were founded for; did you know that?
MILCH: I cannot say I ever heard that that had actually been said, but that was what I surmised at the time, and I wanted to see for myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you found nobody there except criminals?
MILCH: All that I was shown were people who had committed crimes or rather serious offences. The only political prisoners I saw were people who had taken part in the Rohm Putsch. Whether there were others, I am unable to say, because I cannot swear that I saw the entire camp. But we saw all we asked to see. We said, "Now I would like to see this, or that," and the guide took us there.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: By whose authority did you get into the concentration camp for an examination?
MILCH: Himmler's.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who asked Himmler if you could go?
MILCH: I do not understand.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did Goering know that you were making the trip?
MILCH: I do not think so. I did not make a special trip. I had some business in southern Germany in my military capacity, and I set aside one morning for this purpose.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There were people in the concentration camp who had to do with the Rohm Putsch, as you call it?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many were there who had to do with that?
MILCH: I cannot say exactly. As far as I remember now, I should say that altogether I saw about four or five hundred people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Four to five hundred people; and how many were killed?
MILCH: Well, I could not be too sure about this figure, there might easily have been 700. 1 estimate it at around that figure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were killed in the Rohm Putsch?
MILCH: I can only give the figure which Hitler publicly stated in the Reichstag; I cannot say from memory. I may be right if I said the number ranged between 100 and 200.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now why were you so concerned about the concentration camps? Did you have any official responsibility for them?
MILCH: No, I had no responsibility whatsoever; but there was so much talk about them at the time that I decided I would find out for myself. I knew how many questions would be asked me, and I would not be able to answer them; so I said I would go there and see for myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Germany had ordinary prisons for criminal prisoners, had she not?
MILCH: Of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those prisons had sufficed for a good many years to take care of the criminal population, had they not? MILCH, I could not say what their purpose was.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the concentration camp was something new that came in after 1933?
MILCH: Yes. It is true I never heard of anything like that in Germany before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you see any Jews in the concentration camp when you inspected it?
MILCH: Yes; there was one hut which contained Jews, but they all were under heavy sentences for economic misdemeanors and crimes, such as forging documents, and so on. We passed right through, and each one told us, without even being asked, what his sentence was and the reason for it, and not one of them told us that he was there for political reasons. The only political prisoners were the SA men.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You could not find a single prisoner there who claimed he was innocent of a crime?
MILCH: No; everyone with whom we spoke related his case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who accompanied you on that trip?
MILCH: As far as I remember, General Weber, who at that time was Chief of the General Staff. I believe also General Udet and several other gentlemen. But at the moment I do not remember who they were.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who showed you through the concentration camp? Who guided you?
MILCH: I cannot recollect his name. It was one of the officials of the SD. I assume it was the commander of the camp himself, but I do not know his name.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who was running the concentration camp? What organization was in charge of it?
MILCH: I could not say, but I presume it was one of Himmler's offices.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have said that the march into the Rhineland was a great surprise to you?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where were you on your leave when this occurred?
MILCH: I was on winter leave in the mountains, abroad.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In Norway?
MILCH: No, no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In which country?
MILCH: I was in the Alps; I believe it was Southern Tyrol, which, at that time, was Italy.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not hear of a meeting the minutes of which are in evidence here as Exhibit GB-160 (Document Number EC-405), concerning the Reich Defense Council meeting held on the, 26th of June 1935, some nine months before the occupation of the Rhineland?
MILCH: I cannot say whether I was present. I can no longer remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There were, according to the evidence, 24 members of the Wehrmacht and five members of the Luftwaffe present, as well as 24 State and Party officials. Were you one of those present at that conference at which this discussion took place?
MILCH: May I ask again for the date?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The 26th of June 1935.
MILCH: I cannot remember. I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you ever learn of that meeting?
MILCH: At the moment I really cannot remember. What is supposed to have been said at that meeting?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That the preparations for the occupation of the Rhineland were to be kept secret, and the plan was made to invade the Rhineland. Did you never learn of that meeting?
MILCH: I cannot remember that. I do not think I was present.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If your Honors please, the usual time for adjournment is here. I intend to take up a different subject involving some documents. It might be a convenient time to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I want to ask you some questions regarding your duties and activities on the Central Planning Board. You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what was the period of your membership?
MILCH: From the beginning -- I believe that was in the year 1941 or 1942 -- until the end.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Members of that Board, in addition to yourself, were the Defendant Speer?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Defendant Funk ?
MILCH: Yes, but only later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did he come on the Board?
MILCH: At the moment when a large part of the civil production was turned over to the Speer Ministry, the Ministry for Armament.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Korner? Korner was a member of the Board?
MILCH: Korner? Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was Dr. Sauer?
MILCH: Sauer was an official in the Speer Ministry, but he did not belong to the Central Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But he did keep some of the minutes, did he not?
MILCH: No; I think he did not keep them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Sauckel frequently attended the meetings, did he not?
MILCH: Not frequently, but occasionally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What were the functions of the Central Planning Board?
MILCH: The distribution of raw materials to the various groups which held quotas, such as the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and for civilian requirements for various branches such as industry, mining, industrial and private building, et cetera .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And labor?
MILCH: Pardon me, labor? We did not have to distribute that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It had nothing to do with labor? Do I understand you correctly?
MILCH: We could make suggestions, but not the distribution.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean by that, not the distribution amongst different industries which were competing to obtain labor?