dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
BOCK: As I could see it, no. The state of training of the SA when the decree was issued was not such that one could speak of an analogous continuation. Our whole training from 1934 to 1939 was only a general sport training. Otherwise, in my opinion, there would have been no need for any agreement between the SA and the commanders-in-chief of the three branches of the Wehrmacht. In the second place, we could have begun immediately after 19 January, and in the third place, the training of the SA Fuehrer, as far as I know, had not sufficiently progressed, in about 80 percent of the cases, to enable them to fulfill even the slightest military demands. These leaders would no doubt first have had to learn in the Army what would have to be done for this training or postmilitary training. HERR BÖHM: Can one say that in the field of premilitary and postmilitary training, as originally ordered, anything practical ever took place?
BOCK: In my opinion, no. For one thing, this order was given only on 19 January, and it was never carried out. For another it could not become applicable because it was to begin only on 1 October. No men could come back, since the war actually began on 1 September. Only preparations of a technical and financial nature were made-particulars are not known to me-and perhaps the general considerations of how and in what way this order could be carried out. HERR BÖHM: And then an order was given that this activity concerning premilitary and postmilitary training of SA members. should be stopped?
BOCK: As far as I know, both the Commander-in-Chief of the Army and the Party Chancellery ordered this measure to be put aside, and if I recall rightly, this letter of the Party Chancellery further included instructions that this whole decree of 19 January, due to, difficulties made by the youth organizations and the Party units concerning the carrying out of the decree by the SA alone, was to be reviewed and possibly abandoned altogether.
HERR BOMI: Did the SA have financial facilities for creating training opportunities, especially in the special units?
BOCK: The SA had very meager means. For example, an SA Sturm received 80 to 120 marks. A Standarte had about 800 to 1,200 marks. An SA Group had about 2,500 to 3,500 marks-I cannot say exactly. These means were just sufficient to cover the immediate needs of the offices. We had hardly any means for bigger purchases or the acquisition of depots for our special units. If from time to time we received any funds, then these were only smaller amounts which were meagerly distributed through the Supreme SA Leadership. Generally, however, and I believe I have mentioned that, our SA men, and above all those in the special units, manufactured about 90 percent of their equipment themselves or made use of materials they had procured from their working sites or had collected from friends or acquaintances. HERR BÖHM: Witness, there was rifle practice in the SA, among other things. Will you tell us what kinds of weapons were used and how many of these weapons were at the disposal of the individual units?
BOCK: The SA carried out shooting exercises on ranges with small-bore weapons, partly also with air rifles. In addition, at various leader meetings, we had pistol shooting competition for sports training and just as a matter of entertainment. Some SA men and units on private rifle ranges belonging to rifle clubs carried out competitions from time to time with full-bore guns. The number of rifles they had was very small. I remember...
THE PRESIDENT: We surely don't want the details of these rifles. You have probably got it all in your hearings before the Commission, the details of the particular caliber of the rifles. HERR BÖHM: Mr. President, this witness was only named for two questions, the question of military training in the SA and several questions in connection with the newspaper Der SA Mann. I believe that I have only a few more questions to put to this witness altogether. [Turning to the witness.] You have spoken about schools before -Group Schools and so forth. Were these schools continued during the war?
BOCK: Shortly after the beginning of the war -- no, I would rather say immediately with the beginning of the war, the majority of these SA schools were closed. Only a few were kept open. The reason for that was that in the course of time more and more SA men and leaders were inducted into the Armed Forces, while on the other hand those who remained at home at their occupation were kept so busy that they could no longer carry out their service in the SA to the fullest extent, especially in the schools. BERR BÖHM: Now I should like to ask you about another subject, the last one which I would like to discuss with you, and that is the publication Der SA Mann. Can we consider Der SA Mann as an official publication of the Supreme SA Leadership?
BOCK: No, I did not consider it an official publication because I knew that Der SA Mann was not published by the Supreme SA Leadership. It was a newspaper just like any other. HERR BÖHM: What was the attitude	of the Supreme SA Leadership to that publication?
BOCK: The Supreme SA Leadership published official state-ments, such as promotions or announcements of a similar nature, in the newspaper. Apart from that, the contents were similar to those of other publications. HERR BÖHM: Did you, as chief of office, Amtschef, with the Supreme SA Leadership, have any influence on the setup of that publication?
BOCK: No, I had no influence on that newspaper. I only know that my superior, the Hauptamtschef, had tried several times to get a special section in that publication for schooling and training. It was not possible, though. I do not know for what reason, but I have always assumed that purely business matters did not allow this. HERR BÖHM: Now was that publication Der SA Mann used for training purposes within the SA?
BOCK: I did not notice that. That publication was distributed in schools and was read there just as other publications were, but as far as I know, it was not used for special training purposes. HERR BÖHM: There appeared in that publication a series of articles about armament in other states. Is it not to be assumed that these articles were published in order to justify our own armament?
BOCK: In my opinion, that particular weekly was not so important or so widely distributed that it could have had any influence on important people or large numbers of people. HERR BÖHM: Do you know of a publication within the SA which had an official character?
BOCK: The Verordnungsblatt, the publication containing regula-tions of the Supreme SA Leadership, or for instance Der SA Fuehrer, which was published by a special department in the Supreme SA Leadership. HERR BÖHM: One question which is outside this complex of questions: could you tell me who guarded the concentration camp in Dachau from the very beginning?
BOCK: As far as I can recall, that was guarded by SS, I, myself, was never in that camp. Only later did I find out about the existence of that camp. HERR BÖHM: What effect had the seizure of power on 30 January on the old SA men of the combat time after the serious political strife of the previous years?
BOCK: At the time of the seizure of power, I was adjutant in a Gruppenstab. And if I think back to that time today, I remember that I believed at first that, on the basis of the tremendous political tensions and conflicts of the 12 preceding years, precisely at that time a tremendous eruption of pent-up fury and hatred and reprisals was bound to come. I wish to state, however, since I lived through this period of time personally, that I could only see and notice that the seizure of power was effected on the whole quietly and reasonably, and that the old SA man, who still remembered the fighting days, remained calm and prudent. HERR BÖHM: In what light, however, did you see the various excesses which have occurred later on from 1933 to 1934, according to the statement which you have now given?
BOCK: In my opinion, the excesses which occurred later in spite of the discipline and order which had been commanded, could only have been committed by a few individuals or small groups who did not understand the point of our Socialist revolution, its scope and its limitations; or on the other hand, by individuals who were thrown off their balance and could not regain. their inner equilib-rium. HERR BÖHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine? MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON (Junior Counse l for the United Kingdom): Witness, you have told the Tribunal that the SA were trained only in "political soldierdom." Did not political soldier-dom mean that the SA men had special privileges in the State which the ordinary German citizen had not?
BOCK: I do not know what privileges the SA men were supposed to have had.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Was not the SA man one of the National Socialists' elite?
BOCK: The SA man was the political soldier within the Movement and nothing else. HERR BÖHM: Mr. President, our transmission apparatus does not work. We do not understand the questions. The witness under-stands them in part only because he knows some English.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Would it be possible for Dr. Böhm to come and sit here? The German switch appears to be working all right here.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so. If his earphones are not working properly he can get another pair.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Witness, was the SA man subject to the same restraints of behavior as an ordinary German citizen?
BOCK: To a much greater extent. The SA man performed his services voluntarily, and he was particularly subject to the law. I as chief of the Office for Social Welfare, have been concerned for years with gradual1y finding employment for thousands of SA men, and supported them in their work. I had to take care of many poor and needy SA men through that vast welfare organization for many years until close to the end.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I asked you -- perhaps the translation did not come through right -- were there the same restraints, or restrictions, on the behavior of the SA men as there were on ordinary German citizens?
BOCK: Mr. Prosecutor, I would ask you to tell me what, restraints you mean. I do not know of any essential restraints such as you mention.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Is your answer no? There were no restraints? Or is it yes?
BOCK: I asked a question of the prosecutor. What restraints did the-SA man not have in contrast to others? That is how I under-stood the question.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Was the SA man as free in his behavior, or was the SA man more free in his behavior than the ordinary German citizen? If you cannot answer it, have a look for a moment at the general service regulations which you talked about just now. My Lord, that is on Page 30-A of Document Book B. It is Docu-ment Number 2820-PS, and is Exhibit USA-427. [Turning to the witness.] Look first at Article I. I think it is on Page 9. Have you got it?
BOCK: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: "The SA man is the political soldier of Adolf Hitler"; and a few lines further down: "He therefore enjoys special prestige and has definite rights in the State." Do you deny that those words mean what they say? Wasn't the SA man in a privileged position?
BOCK: I can only say that as far as I was an SA 'man, and as far as I came to know others, SA men were not in a privileged position. Besides, this is the SA service regulation of 1933, which, according to my knowledge, was rescinded essentially in 1934, and ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I do not care when it was rescinded. It was issued on the 12th of December 1933, was it not? And that was after the Nazis were in power? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, you can see it says so on the top of it. Tell me what those definite rights in the State were that the SA man is said to have by Article I. What were the definite rights in the State? What did it mean? Every SA man read that book.
BOCK: If the SA man was in the service of the State or in the emergency police service, he, of course, had the privileges accorded that particular service.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You cannot tell me what they are, I suppose. Well, look at that Article 10 on Page 13. Have you got Article 10, Page 13?
BOCK: Ten? Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: "The exalted position of the SA man may not be degraded by insulting, slighting, or unjust treatment." How was the SA man "exalted" above any other German ,citizens?
BOCK: In my opinion he only had particular responsibilities.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: What did it mean when it says he had "an exalted position," and he must not be insulted? He could insult other German citizens, could he not? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Was the SA man e3falted above the Army? Yes or no?
BOCK: I have already said that, as far as I am concerned, I never had or assumed any special privilege, and therefore I cannot imagine that the SA man could have availed himself of any such privilege.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Very well then; that is your answer. Now, look at Article 18, on Page 17: "The SA man may use weapons which are entrusted to him only in execution of his service or for legal self-protection." Now I want you to tell me, what aspect of the SA man's service might require the use of weapons other than in self-defense?
BOCK: I have already said that the SA man could be used for emergency service. With regard to these service regulations, I would like to say that in my opinion they had been issued under Röhm at the time ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I do not want to go into that. R6hm was Chief of Staff of the SA, and what he issued presumably was law to the SA. And he says that they may use weapons only in execution of their service or for legal self-protection. Now I ask you again, apart from self-protection, what case could there be where the SA man's service should require the use of a weapon? If you cannot answer, say so.
BOCK: I can only say what I have already said in answering a question of counsel, that the SA was armed only to the extent that it was active in carrying out functions of the State.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Are you suggesting that the purpose to which they might use their arms might be a military purpose, then? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Are you suggesting they might use them for a military purpose, if they were called for that purpose?
BOCK: I have said emergency service, especially auxiliary police service or police service, whenever the SA was called upon to do so.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You say you are not asserting they would use them in the Army, but you are asserting they might use them to assist the Police, are you?
BOCK: For police emergency service, or police auxiliary service.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Do you mean, then, that when they were under the police auxiliaries, this regulation in the general service regulations of the SA was the regulation that applied to them? Or did police regulations apply? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Did they take the commands of the SA, or did they take the commands of the Police when they were auxiliary policemen? That is what I want to know.
BOCK: Mr. Prosecutor, I have only stated what I have seen myself. I do not know what has been decreed in detail according to the service regulations. The SA man, as I have seen it, was armed in as far as he was used in the State or police auxiliary service.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Can you tell me any other case besides police service where he would have to use his arms, except self-defense? Any other case? [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I put it to you, Witness, that what these arms which are mentioned in this Article 18 were meant for was nothing more nor less than for the carrying out of the so-called SA actions; isn't that right?
BOCK: I can, only repeat again and again that in my opinion ...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you can answer the question. It is either right or it is wrong. You can say, you were with the SA all this time.
BOCK: If the SA man used the weapons when not employed on emergency service, then he became liable to punishment. Apart from that, the SA man was used only for emergency service.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: The SA man, I put it to you, became liable for punishment if he used his weapons for a purpose that the SA did not approve of. But what I am saying now is that he was encouraged-indeed, ordered-to use his weapons for actions which the SA did approve of. [The witness made no response.]
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, if you cannot answer that, I will leave it. Look on in that little book to one more thing. Look on to Page 33, Number 6 of the punishment regulations; Page 33. Have you got Page 33?
BOCK: Yes, I have Page 33.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, you see the last sentence of the first paragraph, about punishment: "Right is what is advantageous to the Movement, and wrong is what harms it." Have you got that?
BOCK: No.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: "Right is what is advantageous to the Movement, and wrong is what harms it."
BOCK: Yes, I have found that.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, I suggest to you, Witness, that what is advantageous to the Movement, such as SA actions, is precisely the thing that the SA arms and weapons were meant to be used for; is that right or wrong? You can say yes or no.
BOCK: The SA leaders were employed under the command of their leaders, and they had to know for what purposes they were allowed to employ their SA men.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I do not think that has got much to do with my question. Look again at that sentence, "Right is what is advantageous to the Movement, and wrong is what harms it." Does not that show perfectly clearly that the Nazi Party regarded the SA as a privileged party who were entitled to commit crimes if they were advantageous to the Movement?
BOCK: The SA man was led, and could not on the basis of that regulation act as an individual, or as he wanted to.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: My Lord, I have only got one more document. There are only two or three questions on it, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: My Lord, the document is the first document in Book C. It is D-918. Oh, I beg Your Lordship's pardon. It is Book 16-B. The document is D-918 and it will become Exhibit GB-594. Witness, I am not going to take you into any detail in this docu-ment. You can see what it is. It is Lutze's training directive for 1939, and you will see on Page 2 that the date on which it was issued was 4 November 1938, which was before Hitler's order about the pre- and postmilitary training. Now I have only one point to, put to you on this document. You have maintained just now, have you not, that the training of the SA was predominantly for sport; is that right?
BOCK: I have said that the training of the SA was primarily training and exercise towards the achievement of the Sport Insignia and ideological and physical training generally.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: But didn't you say that the emphasis was placed upon sport and not upon military tendencies? If you didn't say that, admit it.
BOCK: I cannot remember the details of what was said before.  I can only say one thing, that the SA only had defense-sports training, including physical and ' intellectual training and training of the will power as described here in this book.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: You don't deny then that that training had a military tendency behind it; do you deny that? The training for the Sport Insignia had a military tendency behind it?
BOCK: We received no directives for any kind of military train-ing nor did we actually engage in it. It was a case of moral education, comprising, as I should like to point out again and again, physical and intellectual training and training of the will-power, and nothing else.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, all I want you to do is to run your eye down certain passages of this document. Look at Page 7 of Lutze's training directive for 1939. You will see that Page 7 deals with the first training period, from November 1938 until the beginning of February 1939, and at the bottom part of the page you will see, set out in certain sequence, the items on which particular attention is laid: Marching, drill, shooting, field training, and last of all, sport. Can you see that?
BOCK: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now turn on to Page 9, which gives you a similar thing for the second training period, from February to April 1939. In the middle of the page you will see, underlined again: Drill, firing training, and last of al.1, sport. Do you see that?
BOCK: I do not know, Mr. Prosecutor, what you are referring to right now-I have it now.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Now, turn on to Page 10, where you see the same thing for the third and last training period, which is May to June 1939. On Page 10 you will see the same thing: drill, musketry, field training, and last of all, sport. Isn't it perfectly clear that sport was very much an excuse and a means to an end? My Lord, I am not proposing to put any more questions to this witness, as the general topics will be dealt with in the cross-examination of the witness Juettner.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well; we will adjourn now. [The Tribunal adjourned until 13 August 1946 at 1000 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will sit in closed session tomorrow afternoon at 2 o'clock. That is to say, it will not sit in open session after 1 o'clock tomorrow. Mr. Barrington, had you finished?
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Yes, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other Chief Prosecutors who want to cross-examine? Then, Dr. BOEHM, do you wish to re-examine?
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I should like to ask a few brief questions on the cross-examination yesterday. Witness, will you please answer these questions as briefly as possible. Do you know the basic principle, the foremost in the SA: equal rights for everyone?
BOCK: Yes, I know the principle. It was also taught in the schools.
HERR BOEHM: Is it true that the higher position of an SA man, which was mentioned here yesterday, meant only the respect held for him in the national community on the strength of his contribution to the realization of the aims of the Third Reich?
BOCK: The SA man was always trained to observe order and discipline and to obey directives and the law.
HERR BOEHM: Were the privileges which were mentioned here yesterday something different from the respect for the SA man as a political soldier?
BOCK: The SA man had no privileges. He could earn certain rights in connection with his services which enabled him to advance more easily, socially speaking, but otherwise he was subject to the law in all respects.
HERR BOEHM: You mentioned yesterday that the SA man was not armed, that he only carried an SA dagger. From Sturmfuehrer up, he had in addition some firearm for which he needed a license, like every German who wanted to carry firearms.
BOCK: Yes.
HERR BOEHM: Now, as a member of the SA, within the circle of persons in question here, did the individual who carried a pistol have a right to use it against other nationals?
BOCK: No, the. SA man who carried a weapon was bound to realize just like any other citizen that he could use it only in an emergency for his own defense.
HERR BOEHM: Article 10 was read to you yesterday, stating that the high position of the SA man must not be disgraced by treatment of damaging, disparaging, or unjust character.
BOCK: The rights were the consequences of certain duties. If the SA man was under special obligation he had to have special rights. But never -- that was constantly emphasized -- could he overstep the existing laws in any way.
HERR BOEHM: Article 18 says especially that the SA man may use weapons that were entrusted to him to the extent I have just stated, that is, only in the execution of his services and for legitimate self-protection. Does this not mean that the SA man, like every other German citizen, had to obey the existing regulations concerning the possession and the use of weapons?
BOCK: I have already said so once. The SA man was subject to the existing rules. That means, of course, that he needed a police license or a proper pass stating how and when he was entitled to use his weapon.
HERR BOEHM: Was it not true that the SA man, because he was in the SA and because more was asked of him than of any other citizen, would, receive more severe punishment if he committed an offense with his weapon?