dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: In some respect, yes, because the purpose of this extermination of old people was to rid the Reich of unproductive elements. My Lord, I cannot for the moment give you the exact reference where that appears, but it does appear upon one of the documents. That is a handwritten addition to that document in the handwriting of the-I beg your pardon, it is an original extract of the situation report from the Kreisleitung of Erlangen. The next document, My Lord, need not be dealt with at length. The point is that a Kreisleiter is again involved and that it was general knowledge that there were mistakes in the notification of deaths, for instance, one family receiving two urns for one patient. Number 5 on the next page is much the same. I draw the Tribunal's attention to the middle of the large paragraph, toward the end: "The doctor also informed me that it was well known that the commission consisted of one SS doctor and several subordinate doctors." My Lord, the next document is on Page 10, Number 12, where we have a protest, or rather, an inquiry about the death of a relative. It is from a Mrs. Marie Kehr and I mention that because it is also referring to another Document 1969-PS. No, it is a new document. It will become Exhibit GB-544, Document 1969-PS. I would ask you to look at the second page of that document where you have a letter from the Reich Minister of the Interior to the Gaustabsamtsleiter in Nuremberg. He forwards Mrs.Kehr's letter and the importance of that document is at the bottom, in ink: "Ortsgruppenleiter, Party member Popp, is of the opinion that one can inform Mrs. Kehr. She is calm and sensible." The document also bears the stamp of the Kreisleiter who has been informed. I My Lord, if I might return quite briefly to the document we were looking at, D-906, Page 6 of that document. The Ortsgruppenleiter in Absberg is writing about incidents which occurred on the occasion of the latest removal of mentally defective persons from an institution in that town, a sanatorium in that town.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: He writes to the Kreisleiter and refers to a report of an incident which took place and I can only emphasize that there was public knowledge of what was happening. And then again on Page 8, another Kreisleiter, this time in Weissenburg, Bavaria, writes about the same disturbances and you see that that goes to the Gau staff office in Nuremberg. The next document, Number 11, is from a Kreisleiter in Ansbach and he is writing about the removal of patients from yet another sanatorium in another town; and on the top of the following page the Ortsgruppenleiter is involved: "Ortsgruppenleiter Reuschel is furthermore of the opinion that he should speak about the removal of the inmates, if possible at the next meeting of Party members, in order to give the facts and above all to dispel the rumors that have arisen that the inmates would very soon be put out of the way, done away with, or poisoned." Then at the bottom you see another handwritten note: The Organisationsleiter, that is, the Political Leader on the staff of the Hoheitsträger, is to be informed. My Lord, that concludes the evidence that I was going to ask this witness about. There is one general matter which perhaps the Tribunal will allow me to ask a few questions about. [Turning to the witness.] Well, perhaps first of all I might ask you this on that evidence, Witness. In view of the documents that you have seen, did you yourself ever have any knowledge of this so-called mercy killing that was going on?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: Once I heard a rumor that somewhere in southern Germany mental patients were being done away with. Thereupon, as was my duty, I immediately inquired of my Gauleiter and after a short time I received the information that this was not true and that in the future I was not to make such inquiries, which were senseless as I ought to be able to see.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Why did you have to make such inquiries?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: Because I had heard such rumors from the population.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did you know that colleagues of yours in the Corps of Political Leaders were co-operating in that system of murder?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: No, I never knew or suspected that.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Now let me ask you about one other matter. You told the Tribunal yesterday that there was no "Corps of Political Leaders," is that right?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: Yes.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: That is not correct, is it? They were recognized officially as "the Corps of Political Leaders," were they not?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: The "Corps of Political Leaders" was spoken of with the intention of teaching people better manners on their appearance in public, and for that reason officers and students' corps were pointed out as examples. There was no official "Corps of Political Leaders" and there could not be any such corps because the men changed constantly and had to come from all parts of the population.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: They were called a "Corps of Political Leaders" because on becoming a political leader you became a member of that corps, isn't that the position?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: Since there was no real "Corps of Political Leaders," when one was appointed one could not become a member of it.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: And the Political Leaders are referred to as a "Corps of Political Leaders" in the official Organization Book of the NSDAP, are they not?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: I am convinced that you can refer to them as such. You have the book. Upon the oath that I have taken I again want to say that I have not had time until now to read this book carefully because my actual tasks were more important than the lectures of this wishful dream-for I cannot call it by any other name.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I have no further questions.
DR. SERVATIUS: [Turning to the witness.] I have a question on Document D-897, the first one that was submitted, a letter from the Reich Security Service, subsidiary branch Erfurt, signed by an officer of the branch office. It is addressed to all consultants and Stuetzpunktleiter (base or operational point leaders). The prosecutor said that the Stuetzpunkt, which is here referred to, is a Party agency. Is this opinion correct if you read that the letter is addressed to all consultants and Stuetzpunktleiter and is a letter of the SS?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: I noticed that immediately, too, and I would have referred to it myself. It can only have been a Stuetzpunktleiter of the SD, for at that time within the political leadership there were no more Stuetzpunkte but only Ortsgruppen.  Moreover, further down in this letter., in the second place, the Ortsgruppenleiter is specially mentioned.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes. It says there, "This matter is also to be carried out in close co-operation with the Ortsgruppenleiter of the Party." Is this letter addressed to a subordinate Party agency from a subordinate SS agency?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: At the moment I do not have the letter here, but I recall that it was addressed to the subordinate offices of the branch agency and states that they should contact the Ortsgruppenleiter. It strikes me, at any rate, that the Ortsgruppenleiter was to be informed only 1 day before, while those who received the letter were informed 2 days beforehand and given the necessary information. The confidence in the Party cannot have been very great then.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was the Ortsgruppenleiter here informed through the customary channels of the Party or were the higher Party agencies skipped?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: In this case the information was not passed on in the official way; for it should have been done through the higher Party agency.
DR. SERVATIUS: Therefore I can draw the conclusion then that it is possible that the higher Party agencies knew nothing of this action of the lower SS agencies?
MEYER-WENDEBORN: Absolutely.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no more questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Will you call your next witness, Dr. Servatius?
DR. SERVATIUS: With the permission of the Court, I call the next witness, Wegscheider, an Ortsgruppenleiter. [The witness Wegscheider took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
HANS VVEGSCHEIDER (Witness): Hans Wegscheider.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, when were you born?
WEGSCHEIDER: On 30 October 1885.
DR. SERVATTUS: You were Ortsgruppenleiter out in the country for 12, years, from 1933 to 1945, in Hirschdorf, near St. Lorenz?
WEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR.SERVATIUS: That is in the Kreis Kempten-Allgäu?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, that is in the Kreis Kempten-Land.
DR. SERVATIUS: And there you were also mayor from 1933 on? WEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: You were a blacksmith and veterinary at the same time?
VVEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR.SERVATIUS: And, as such, you moved about a great deal in Allädu?
WEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR.SERVATIUS: Did you then have insight into conditions in the other Ortsgruppen in Allädu?
WEGSCHEIDER: Yes, I knew the 36 Ortsgruppen in the Kreis Kempten-Land fairly well.
DR. SERVATIUS: How many people were there?
WEGSCHEIDER: There were about 40,000 inhabitants.
DR. SERVATIUS: When did you enter the Party?
WEGSCHEIDER: On 28 March 1933.
DR. SERVATIUS: How did you become an Ortsgruppenleiter?
WEGSCHEIDER: On the occasion of the assembly at which the Ortsgruppen were founded on 28 March 1933, I was appointed Ortsgruppenleiter.
DR.SERVATIUS: Did you take an oath?
WEGSCHEIDER: Yes, as Ortsgruppenleiter I took an oath once.
DR.SERVATIUS: You said before the Commission that in 11 years you took the oath 12 times. Is that a mistake?
WEGSCHEIDER: That is a mistake.
DR. SERVATIUS: How did you become the local mayor?
WEGSCHEIDER: In April 1933 the new community council was set up. At about the end of this month the community council elected a mayor, and I had not only the votes of the NSDAP, but also four votes of the Social Democrat Party and one vote * of the Bavarian People's Party, and thus I was elected mayor.
DR. SERVATIUS: As Ortsgruppenleiter, did you receive a salary?
WEGSCHEIDER: No.
DR.SERVATIUS: And how about the Ortsgruppenleiter who were not mayors?
WEGSCHEIDER: They did not receive any salary either.
DR. SERVATIUS: For what reason was the office of Ortsgruppenleiter and mayor united in the hands of one man?
WEGSCHEIDER: In the Kreis Kempten-Land there were only country communities, peasant communities, and probably there was no suitable person available. Thus in 10 communities of our Kreis, the mayor and Ortsgruppenleiter were the same person, and in the last analysis it was more expedient.
DR.SERVATIUS: How was your Ortsgruppenleitung made up?
WEGSCHEIDER: First came the Ortsgruppenleiter, then the propaganda and organization, then the treasurer, a press office leader, and later an auxiliary office leader, then two Zellenleiter and about eight Blockleiter.
DR. SERVATIUS: What was the activity of the Block- and Zellenleiter?
WEGSCHEIDER: The activity of our Zellenleiter in the small country communities proved to be futile so that in most of the Ortsgruppen they were abolished. But the activity of the Blockleiter can be considered purely technical in that they did only auxiliary work.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you consider the Block- and Zellenleiter as Political Leaders and Hoheitstrdger?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, s ince the work of the Blockleiter in the small country communities was meaningles;3, politically, they could in no wise be called Hoheitsträger.
DR. SERVATIUS: Why did you enter the Party and when did you take over your office as Ortsgruppenleiter?
WEGSCHEIDER: In 1929 I believe. In the following years of 1930, '31, and '32, as I was a blacksmith by profession and as I had very close contact with the peasants, I saw with my own eyes how German agriculture declined year by year. In our district of Allädu the majority of us had joined the Bavarian Peasant League; a few, the minority, were with the Bavarian People's Party, and the few workers who were in the community joined the Social Democrat Party, while a very small number were Communists.
DR. SERVATIUS: We would like to hear your personal reasons for entering.
WEGSCHEIDER: I have already emphasized how I personally suffered in my own district through the decline.
DR. SERVATIUS: Then it was on account of social reasons?
WEGSCHEIDER: Purely social reasons.
DR. SERVATIUS: What was the attitude of the other Political Leaders in Allädu? Did they have other reasons for joining, perhaps the fight against the Jews or the acquisition of Lebensraum?
WEGSCHEIDER: The misery was equally great in all agricultural regions and so the attitude might well have been the same.
DR. SERVATIUS: What was the attitude of the Kreisleiter and the Gauleiter?
WEGSCHEIDER: The Gauleiter and Kreisleiter were both patriots and probably they considered -their activity and their work in the Party as beneficial to the welfare of our people and our country.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, in the Party program other aims are set forth outside of the purely social ones, such as the solution of the Jewish problem. What was the attitude of the Political Leaders toward that question?
WEGSCHEIDER: Since there were no Jewish businesses in our district and therefore no Jewish people lived there,, this question was not a burning one for us and hardly came into consideration.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were there no Jewish cattle dealers?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, not in the country. Only in the town of Kempten there was a wholesale firm of cattle dealers, Loew Brothers, and our peasants sold and exchanged cattle there.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were not steps taken against this and voices of protest raised?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, for a long time after the assumption of power our farmers traded with this wholesale farm of cattle dealers.
DR. SERVATIUS: The Party program also contained a demand for settlement space. Could this be done only through conquest and did you receive directives which indicated a preparation for war?
WEGSCHEIDER: I did not receive any directives to that effect and we in the country saw the solution of this settlement and living space problem in the return of our colonies and we were of the firm conviction that this could be achieved by peaceful means.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did not the Political Leaders also see that a large rearmament program was in progress?
WEGSCHEIDER: We in the country saw but little of the rearmament. Only at a Reichsparteitag-I do not recall the exact year-did we see that there were somewhat more airplanes and more tanks. We became convinced that a country and a people like Germany would have to protect her borders for the sake of her own internal reconstruction and we considered this rearmament a necessary evil.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were there not aims which could be realized only through wars of aggression., such as characterized by the slogans, "Away from Versailles" and "Germans Unite"?
WEGSCHEIDER: We discussed this point of the program as well and we saw the union of all German-speaking peoples based on a plebiscite and on the self-determination rights of the German-speaking peoples.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did not trouble arise with the Church soon because of the Party's attitude toward the same? There were attacks on the Church, you know.
WEGSCHEIDER: No, not in the country, especially as among the Party members, Ortsgruppenleiter, and Blockleiter no discrimination was made as to whether they were Catholics or not. We went to church and in my particular Ortsgruppe I and my eight Political Leaders sang in the church choir. The other church musicians and singers, about 30 in all, were also Party members, and belonged to some organization, such as the National Socialist Women's Organization, the BDM, and the Hitler Youth. That applied in my district and I believe more or less it was the same case in other districts as well.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did not the clergymen protest against the steps being taken by the Party in the Jewish question and did not this lead to disputes?
WEGSCHEIDER: As I have already mentioned, there were no Jews living in the country. Therefore, this problem was hardly dealt with at all.
DR. WEGSCHEIDER: SERVATIUS: Was there not unrest because of the seizing of political opponents and their being taken to concentration camps? In our Kreis Kempten-Land I do not know of anyone having been taken to a concentration camp. Only in my community, and this probably happened right after the assumption of power, two individuals were sent to Dachau, but what the cause and the reason for this was I do not know for at that time I was neither Ortsgruppenleiter nor mayor. My attention was called to this matter when in the year 1933 a woman, Frau Bär, from Rottach near Kempten, came to me and asked me to make an application for the release of her husband who had been interned at Dachau for some months, as it was not possible for her to cultivate her large vegetable garden ...
DR.SERVATIUS: You need not give us the details. Just tell us what steps you took and what information you gave.
WEGSCHEIDER: I made an application and for several months heard nothing more about it.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was the man released?
VTEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR.SERVATIUS: Did you speak with him?
MTEGSCHEIDER: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: What did he tell you?
WEGSCHEIDER: He told me, "I was treated fairly well, the food was good and the treatment too."
DR. SERVATIUS: Did the Kreisleiter and Gauleiter tolerate this more or less easy attitude or did they demand severe measures against all who were not Party members or people who had interests other than those of the Party?
WEGSCHEIDER: Both Gauleiter and Kreisleiter adopted the same attitude. They both rejected severe measures and both of them at meetings always repeatedly made clear to us that we must gain the good will and the confidence of the people by setting a good example.
DR.SERVATIUS: Were not SA and SS units formed in your community so that political opponents could be terrorized?
WEGSCHIEIDER: No. There- were only very few groups of the SA in the country districts. Those close by were attached to the units in Kempten, and in remote communities, such as Oberguenzburg, for instance, the members of these two organizations were united into smaller units. Their activity was purely propagandistic.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was there a unit of the SS there too?
WEGSCHEIDER: In Kempten there was a small SS cavalry unit but you can hardly call it a unit for this group had only eight or ten horses. It also served propaganda purposes.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did not the Party press make known to you the extensive Party demands, as, for instance, on the Jewish question through Der Stfirmer or on other 4uestions through Das Schwarze Korps? You know both of these newspapers?
WEGSCHEIDER: Both of these newspapers went far beyond the ordinary Party program in this point. The Party program merely specified that the Jews were to be removed from influential positions. Apart from that these papers were hardly read in the country.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you not have to realize that activity of that sort would lead to an aggressive war and to war crimes, such as are the basis of the Indictment today? WEGSCHEIDER- No; the activity of an Ortsgruppenleiter or of a Blockleiter in the country was of such a nature that it could hardly give grounds for such a supposition. Our work was purely social.
DR. SERVATIUS: During the war instructions were given regarding the lynching of aviators who had made emergency landings. There was a letter of Bormann and Goebbels which gave directives over the radio and through the press. Did you learn of such directives from the Kreisleiter?
WEGSCHEIDER: Directives of that sort never reached my hands.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did aviators make emergency landings in your territory and were they lynched?
WEGSCHEIDER: No.
DR.SERVATIUS: What happened to them?
WEGSCHEIDER: I, myself, had the opportunity to take in an American flier who had landed about 100 meters behind my home. I took him into my house and fed him and after perhaps a quarter of an hour he was sent for by the Kempten police in an auto. In March 1945-I cannot tell you the exact day- four American prisoners of war who had escaped from a camp at Eidrunk near Kaufbeuren were captured after 12 o'clock by the guard who had been stationed on the Iller bridge at Hirschdorf and brought to me.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was that the general attitude toward this question and the ordinary way of procedure in your region of Allädu? .
WEGSCHEIDER: Yes, that was generally so. The population of Allädu are very good Catholics and we were all of the opinion that such prisoners of war must actually be treated as prisoners of war.
DR. SERVATIUS: In your Ortsgruppe and in your Kreis, foreign workers were employed. Did you receive directives concerning the treatment of these workers which were contrary to human dignity?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, I cannot say that I received such directives, for the assignment of foreign workers- there were about 60 of them, Polish and Ukrainian civilian workers-was handled by the Orfsbauernfuehrer only, and in our area it was customary for the Bauernfuehrer to discuss all matters of this kind with me.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you not hear about the fact that these workers were to sleep in a barn and were to receive their food there as well?
WEGSCHEIDER: I know nothing about a directive to the effect that these workers were to sleep in a barn and were to receive their food there. The Labor Office only gave each Polish worker a note which was to be turned over to the farmer and which said that the Polish workers should not eat at the family table and that they must be at home at a certain hour. In discussing this matter with the Bauernfuehrer at that time, I told him that this could not be done with our peasants in the Allädu. If the foreign worker involved behaved decently and did his work as well as a German worker, then he was to enjoy the same rights as the German worker.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, was it not the case that the comments which one heard among the farmers about the Party in the Reich were such that one would have liked to deviate from certain points, especially during the war?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, I never noticed anything of that sort, for we on the land all believed in the Fuehrer's love of peace, for we knew that Hitler had lived through the horrors of the first World War, and we were convinced of his desire for peace of which we were told time and again.
DR. SERVATIUS: Therefore, you dispute the fact that the Political Leaders in your district deliberately partook in a conspiracy to terrorize the population for the purpose of waging an aggressive war and committing war crimes?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, that was not the case.
DR. SERVATIUS: If, today, an accusation is raised that these Political Leaders in your area were criminals, would you admit that?
WEGSCHEIDER: No, that was not the case.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions to this witness.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I have two things about which perhaps the Tribunal will permit me to ask a few very short questions. The first is Document EC-68, which is Exhibit USA-205, and the Tribunal will find it on Page 21 of their document book. Witness, I want to ask you about the Bauernfuehrer on your staff. The Bauernfuehrer was one of the so-called "nonpolitical" Political Leaders, was he not? Can you hear me?
WEGSCHEIDER: I do not understand you.