dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR.ALFRED THOMA (Counsel for Defendant Rosenberg): You said a little while ago that, with respect to authority, the same regulations applied in the area of the civil administration as in the Reich.
SCHELLENBERG: I said they were to apply.
DR. THOMA: Please answer my question again.
SCHELLENBERG: I will repeat: I described the agreement which contained the provision that in the areas intended for civil administration (Reichskommissariat) the same relations between the Army and the Security Police and the SD, in regard to subordination and command, were applicable as in the Reich.
DR. THOMA: Do you know how that was done in practice?
SCHELLENBERG: No, later on I did not concern myself with these questions any more.
DR. THOMA: Thank you.
HERR BABEL: You were a member of the SS and of the SD, and in leading positions...
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state, for the purposes of the record, which organization you appear on behalf of?
HERR BABEL: I represent the organization of the SS and SD. [Turning to the witness.] In the RSHA there were departments of the Security Police and the SD. How were these two departments interrelated, and what was the purpose of the SD?
SCHELLENBERG: That is a question that I cannot answer with one sentence.
HERR BABEL: I can withdraw the question for the moment and ask a concrete one: Was the SD used with the "Einsatzgruppen" in the East? To what extent? And for what tasks?
SCHELLENBERG: I believe that most of this work in the East was undertaken by the Security Police, that is, by the Secret State Police and the Criminal Police and that only supplementary contingents were formed from the personnel of the SD.
HERR BABEL: How large were these contingents? How large was the SD?
SCHELLENBERG: I believe that I can estimate the figures: Excluding female employees, the State Police-perhaps 40,000 to 45,000; the Criminal Police-15,000 to 20,000; the SD of the interior, that is, Amt III with its organizational subsidiaries-2,000 to 2,500; and the SD outside Germany, that is my Amt VI-about 400.
HERR BABEL: And how was the SD used in the East with the Einsatz groups.
SCHELLENBERG: I cannot give you the particulars, as that was a concern of the personnel administration and it depended entirely upon the of the then Chief of the Security Police.
HERR BABEL: Did the figures you mentioned include only the male members of the SD, or were the female employees also included?
SCHELLENBERG: Only male members. I excluded the female employees.
HERR BABEL: Yesterday a witness gave us approximately the same figure of 3,000, but he included the female employees in this figure.
SCHELLENBERG: I mentioned a figure of 2,000 to 2,500 for the SD in the interior.
HERR BABEL: What was the organizational structure of the Waffen-SS?
SCHELLENBERG: As for the organizational structure of the Waffen-SS, I cannot give you a detailed reply that is reliable as I did not deal with this question.
HERR BABEL: You were a member of the Waffen-SS and of the SD?
SCHELLENBERG: I was merely appointed a member of the Waffen-SS in January 1945, so to speak by higher orders, because I had many military units under my command and I had to be given a military rank through the Amt Military.
HERR BABEL: Do you know whether that also happened to a large extent in other cases?
SCHELLENBERG: That question is beyond me.
HERR BABEL: Thank you.
COL. AMEN: Do you know of any particular case in which Kaltenbrunner had ordered the evacuation of any one concentration camp, contrary to Himmler's wishes?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you tell the Tribunal about that?
SCHELLENBERG: I cannot give you the exact date, but I believe it was in the beginning of April 1945. The son of the former Swiss President, Muesi, who had taken his father to Switzerland, returned by car to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, in order to fetch a Jewish family which I myself had set free. He found the camp in process of being evacuated under the most deplorable conditions. When he had, 3 days previously, driven his father to Switzerland, he was given definite assurance before he left that the camps would not be evacuated. Since this assurance was also intended for General Eisenhower, he was doubly disappointed at this breach of promise. Muesi, Jr., called on me personally at my office. He was deeply offended and reproached me bitterly. I could not understand what had happened; and I at once contacted Himmler's secretary, protesting against this sort of procedure. Shortly after, it was admitted that the facts as depicted by Muesi, Jr., were true, although it was still incomprehensible, because Himmler had not given these orders. I was assured that everything would be done to put an immediate halt to the evacuations. This was confirmed on the telephone personally by Himmler a few hours later. I believe it was on the same day, after a meeting of office chiefs, that I informed Kaltenbrunner of the situation and expressed my profound concern at this new breach of international assurances. As I paused in the conversation, the Chief of the State Police, Gruppenfuehrer Muller, interrupted and explained that he had started the evacuation of the more important internees from the individual camps 3 days ago on Kaltenbrunner's orders. Kaltenbrunner replied with these words: "Yes, that is correct. It was an order of the Fuehrer which was also recently confirmed by the Fuehrer in person. All the important internees are to be evacuated at his order to the south of the Reich." He then turned to me mockingly and, speaking in dialect, said: "Tell your old gentleman (i.e. Muesi, Sr.) that there are still enough left in the camps.
SCHELLENBERG: With that you too can be satisfied." I think this was on 10 April 1945.
COL. AMEN: That is all, may it please the. Tribunal.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Can you say now what the functions of the RSHA were?
SCHELLENBERG: That I cannot answer in one sentence. I believe . . .
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Be brief, be brief! What were the aims?
SCHELLENBERG: The RSHA was a comprehensive grouping of the Security Police, that is, the State Police...
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): We know about this organization on the basis of the documents which are at the disposal of the Court, but what were its functions?
SCHELLENBERG: I just wanted to explain its functions. Its functions consisted of security, that is, State Police activity, of Criminal Police activity, and of intelligence activity at home and abroad.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Would it be correct to formulate the functions as follows: To suppress those whom the Nazi Party considered its enemies?
SCHELLENBERG: No, I think this statement is too one-sided.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): But all these functions were included?
SCHELLENBERG: They were, perhaps, a certain part of the activities of the State Police.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Had this part of the functions, then, been changed after Kaltenbrunner took office?
SCHELLENBERG: No, there was no change.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Had those functions, to which you referred just now, been changed since the time that Kaltenbrunner took office as Chief of the Security Police?
SCHELLENBERG: The functions, as I formulated them, did not change after Kaltenbrunner assumed office.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen.Nikitchenko): I have one more question: What were the aims and purposes of the Einsatz groups which were to have been created on the basis of the agreement between the SD and the High Command?
SCHELLENBERG: As I mentioned before, in the first part of the agreement made at that time it was laid down that the rear must be protected and all means used to repress any resistance.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): To repress or to crush resistance?
SCHELLENBERG: The words were, "All resistance is to be crushed with every means." ~
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): By what means was the resistance to be suppressed?
SCHELLENBERG: The agreement did not mention or discuss this in any way.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): But you know what means were used for that suppression, do you not?
SCHELLENBERG: Later I heard that because of the bitterness of the struggle, harsh means were chosen, but I know this only by hearsay.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): What does it mean more exactly?
SCHELLENBERG: That in partisan fighting and in encounters with the civilian population many shootings took place.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): Including children?
SCHELLENBERG: I didn't hear about that.
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): You didn't hear about it? [There was no response.] .
THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Nikitchenko): That is all.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Since Your Lordship was good enough to ask me whether I wanted to put any questions, I have had some further information and I should be very grateful if the Tribunal would be good enough to allow me to ask one or two questions. [Turning to the witness.] Would you direct your mind to a conversation between the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, and Gruppenfuehrer Muller, in the spring of 1944, in Berlin at Wilhelmstrasse 102.
SCHELLENBERG: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: With what was that conversation concerned?
SCHELLENBERG: This conversation, as far as I could gather- for I took no part in it-concerned the subsequent covering for the shooting of about 50 English or American prisoners of war. The gist of the conversation was, as far as I remember, that there had evidently been an inquiry from the International Red Cross as to the whereabouts of 50 English and American prisoners of war. This request for information by the International Red Cross appears to have been passed on to the Chief of the Security Police and the SD by way of the Foreign Office. From the conversation I could. . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Was it already in the form of a protest against the shooting of prisoners of war?
SCHELLENBERG: I believe it was lodged in the form of a protest, since from fragments of this conversation I gathered that there was a discussion as to how the shooting of these prisoners of war, which had already taken place, could be covered up or disguised.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did Kaltenbrunner discuss this with Muller and Nebe? ,
SCHELLENBERG: Kaltenbrunner discussed this matter with Muller and Nebe, but I heard merely fragments of the conversation. I heard, incidentally, that they meant to discuss the details in the course of the afternoon.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you hear any suggestion put forward as to what explanations should be given to cover the shooting of these prisoners?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes, Kaltenbrunner himself offered these suggestions.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What were the suggestions?
SCHELLENBERG: That the majority should be treated as individual cases, as "having perished in air raids"; some, I believe, because they "offered resistance," that is, "physical resistance," while others were "pursued when escaping."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You mean-shot while trying to escape?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes, shot in flight.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And these were the excuses which Kaltenbrunner suggested?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes, these were the excuses that Kaltenbrunner suggested.
SIR DAVE MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I want you to try and remember as well as you can about these prisoners. Does any number remain in your mind? Can you remember any number of prisoners that they were discussing or how these explanations arose? About how many?
SCHELLENBERG: I remember only that the number "50" was mentioned over and over again, but what the actual details there I cannot say because I just caught fragments of the conversation. I could not follow the whole conversation.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But the number "50" remains in your mind?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes, I heard "50."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Can you remember anything of the place or the camp in which these people had been, who there said to have been shot?
SCHELLENBERG: I cannot tell you under oath. There is a possibility that I might add something I heard afterwards. I believe it was Breslau, but I cannot say it exactly, as a fact.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And can you remember anything of what service the people belonged to? Were they Air Force or Army? Have you any recollection on that point?
SCHELLENBERG: I believe they were all officers.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Were officers?
SCHELLENBERG: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But you cannot remember what service?
SCHELLENBERG: No, that I cannot tell you.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very grateful to the Tribunal for letting me ask these questions. .
COL. AMEN: That is all for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the witness can go then. [The witness left the stand.]
COL. AMEN: I wish to call as the next witness, Alois Hollriegel [The witness, Hollriegel, took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
ALOIS HOLLRIEGEL (Witness): Alois Hollriegel.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you take this oath: "I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing." [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You can sit down if you want to.
COL. AMEN: What position did you hold at the end of the war?
HOLLRIEGEL: At the end of the war I was Unterscharfuehrer at Mauthausen.
COL. AMEN: Were you a member of the Totenkopf SS?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes; in the year 1939 I was drafted into the SS. COL. AMEN.. What were your duties at the Mauthausen Concentration Camp?
HOLLRIEGEL: I was until the winter of 1942 with a guard company, and I stood guard. From 1942 until the end of the war I was detailed to the inner service of the concentration camp.
COL. AMEN: And you therefore had occasion to witness the extermination of inmates of that camp by shooting, gassing, and so forth?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes, I saw that.
COL. AMEN: And did you make an affidavit in this case to the effect that you saw Kaltenbrunner at that camp?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And that he saw and was familiar with the operation of the gas chamber there?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Did you also have occasion to see any other important personages visiting that concentration camp?
HOLLRIEGEL: I remember Pohl, Glucks, Kaltenbrunner, Schirach, and the Gauleiter of Styria, Uiberreither.
COL. AMEN: And did you personally see Schirach at that concentration camp at Mauthausen?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Do you remember what he looks like so that you could identify him?
HOLLRIEGEL: I think that he has probably changed a little in recent times, but I would certainly remember him.
COL. AMEN: How long ago was it that you saw him there?
HOLLRIEGEL: That was in the fall of 1942. Since then I have not seen him.
COL. AMEN: Will you look around the courtroom and see whether you can see Schirach in the courtroom?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Which person is it?
HOLLRIEGEL: In the second row, the third person from the left.
COL. AMEN: The affidavit to which I referred was Exhibit Number USA-515.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the PS number?
COL. AMEN: 2753-PS. [Turning to the witness.] I now show you a copy of Document Number 2641-PS and ask you whether you can recognize the place where those individuals are standing?
HOLLRIEGEL: As far as can be seen from the picture, it is a quarry. Whether it is at Mauthausen or not one cannot determine exactly, because the view is too small.
COL. AMEN: Would you repeat that answer please?
HOLLRIEGEL: Certainly. As far as can be seen from this picture, it is not possible to say definitely if this is the WienerGraben quarry which adjoined Mauthausen. It might easily be another quarry. A larger range of vision is required. But I think that visits were often made there. I assume that this is the Wiener-Graben quarry.
COL. AMEN: Very good. Just lay the picture aside for the time being. Did you have occasion to observe the killing of inmates of the concentration camp by pushing them off a cliff?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you tell the Tribunal what you saw with respect to that practice?
HOLLRIEGEL: I remember, it was in 1941. At that time I was with a guard company on the tower which closed off the area of the Wiener-Graben quarry. I was able to observe in the morning about six to eight prisoners who came with two SS men. One was Hauptscharfuehrer Spatzenocker and the other, Unterscharfuehrer Edenhofer; they moved about and made strange gestures. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Wait, you are going too fast. You should go slower.
HOLLRIEGEL: I saw that they were approaching the precipice near the quarry. I saw from my watchtower that these two SS men were beating the prisoners and I realized immediately that they intended to force them to throw themselves over the precipice or else to push them over. I noticed how one of the prisoners was kicked while lying on the ground, and the gestures showed that he was supposed to throw himself down the precipice. This the prisoner promptly did under the pressure of the blows-presumably in despair.
COL. AMEN: How steep was the precipice?
HOLLRIEGEL: I estimate it to be 30 to 40 meters.
COL. AMEN: Was there a term used amongst you guards for this practice of having the prisoners fall from the top of the precipice?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes, in Mauthausen Camp they were called paratroopers.
COL. AMEN: The witness is available to other counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Russian Prosecutor or the French Prosecutor or any defense counsel have any questions?
DR. SAUTER: Witness, I am interested in the following points: You said just now that in 1939 you were taken into the SS?
HOLLRIEGEL: That is true; on the 6th of September...
DR. SAUTER: One moment; please repeat your answer.
HOLLRIEGEL: That is right. On the 6th of September 1939 I was taken into the SS at Ebersberg near Linz.
DR. SAUTER: Had you no connection at all with the Party before then?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes. In April 1938 I enlisted in the civilian SS, because I was out of work during the entire previous period of the Schuschnigg Government and without any support, and consequently I thought, I would join the civilian SS; there I would get work in order to marry my wife.
DR. SAUTER: Then, if I understood you correctly, you were drafted into the SS in 1939, because you had already voluntarily enlisted in the civilian SS in the spring of 1938?
HOLLRIEGEL: I cannot say that exactly. Many were drafted into the Armed Forces, into the Air Force, and into the General SS.
DR. SAUTER: Are you an Austrian?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Then at that time you lived in Austria?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes, in Graz.
DR. SAUTER: Then I should be interested in a certain point in regard to the Defendant Von Schirach. You saw the Defendant Von Schirach at Mauthausen. How often did you see him there?
HOLLRIEGEL: I can remember quite clearly-once.
DR. SAUTER: Once?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
DR.SAUTER: Was Von Schirach alone at Mauthausen, or was he together with other people?
HOLLRIEGEL: No. Von Schirach was accompanied by other gentlemen. There was a group of about 10 people, and among them I recognized Von Schirach and Gauleiter Uiberreither.
DR. SAUTER: There are supposed to have been 20 persons at least and not 10 on that occasion.
HOLLRIEGEL: I did not know at that time that I might have to use these figures; I did not count them.
DR. SAUTER: This point is important to me, because the Defendant Schirach told me it was a visiting inspection, an official inspection tour of the Concentration Camp Mauthausen, as a result of a meeting of the economic advisors of all six Gaue of the Ostmark.
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes, I naturally did not know why he came to the camp, but I remember that this group came with Von' Schirach and Schutzhaftlagerfuehrer (Protective Custody-Camp Leader) Bachmeyer. At any rate I could see that it looked like an inspection.
DR. SAUTER: Did you know that this inspection was announced in the camp several days before and that certain preparations were made in the camp because of this inspection?
HOLLRIEGEL: I cannot remember any specific preparations but I do remember it was in the evening. I can't tell you the exact time; it was the time of the evening roll call. The prisoners had assembled for roll call and all the hands on duty also had to fall in. Then this group came in.
DR.SAUTER: Did you or your comrades not know on the day before that this inspection would take place the very next day?
HOLLRIEGEL: I cannot remember that.
DR.SAUTER: And did it not strike you that certain definite preparations had been made in this camp?
HOLLRIEGEL: I cannot remember noticing that any preparations had been made.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions to ask this witness.
DR. GUSTAV STEINBAUER (Counsel for Defendant Seyss-Inquart): Witness, you described an incident which, judged by the concepts of civilized people, cannot be termed anything but murder-that is, the hurling of people over the side of the quarry. Did you report this incident to your superiors?
HOLLBIEGEL: These incidents happened frequently and one can take it that the chances were a thousand to one that the superiors knew about them.
DR. STEINBAUER: In other words, you did not report this. Is it true that not only the internees but also the guards were forbidden under pain of death to report incidents of this sort to a third person?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no other question.
COL. AMEN: Would you just look at that picture again? HOLLRIEGEL Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you look at it carefully and tell me whether that is the quarry underneath the cliff which you have just described?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes. As far as I can tell from this picture, and I assume with a 100 percent degree of accuracy that it is the quarry Wiener-Graben; but one would have to see more, more background, to decide whether it is really this quarry. One sees too little, but I think quite certainly...
COL. AMEN: Do you recognize the individuals whose faces appear in the picture?
HOLLRIEGEL: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Will you tell the Tribunal the ones which you do recognize?
HOLLRIEGEL: I recognize of course Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler first of all, next to him the commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp Ziereis and way to the right I recognize Kaltenbrunner.
COL. AMEN: That is all, may it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can go and we will adjourn for 10 minutes.
COL. STOREY: If the Tribunal please, the next and final subject of the criminal organizations is the General Staff and High Command, to be presented by Colonel Taylor.