dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Then you can give us the exhibit numbers later.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If that is suitable to the convenience of the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well now, the Tribunal will see by looking at this bundle, from the first page-which I think is 3-A-to Page 25-A, that there are various extracts which have been written either by yourself or by members of your staff between January 1939 and January 1941. Do I understand you to say now, to have said in your evidence, that you never knew that Jews were being exterminated in thousands and millions in the Eastern territories? Did you never know that?
STREICHER: No.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: As I understood your evidence about the Israelitisches Wochenblatt this morning you said this, as I have written it down: "Sometimes that journal contained hints that everything was not in order. Later in 1943 an article appeared stating that masses of Jews were disappearing but the article did not quote any figures and did not mention anything about murders." Are you really saying that those copies of the Israelitisches Wochenblatt , which you and your editors were reading, contained nothing except for a hint of disappearance with no mention of figures or murder? Is that what you are telling this Tribunal?
STREICHER: Yes, I stick to that, certainly.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Now, I want you, if you will, to take this bundle and keep it in front of you. It is a bundle of extracts from the Israelitisches Wochenblatt from July 1941 until the end of the war. The Tribunal will be able to see what a fanatic for the truth really tells. [The document was submitted to the defendant.] My Lord, this bundle, for convenience again, is marked "B." [Turning to the defendant.] Will you look at the first page? That is an article on the 11th of July 1941. "Some 40,000 Jews died in Poland during the last years. The hospitals are overfull." Now, you need not turn over for the moment, Defendant. We will turn the pages soon enough. Did you happen to read that sentence in the issue of the 11th of July 1941?
STREICHER: No.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Will you look at Page 3, 3-B? In November 1941: "Very bad news comes from the Ukraine. Thousands of Jewish dead are being mourned, among whom are many of the Galician Jews who were expelled from Hungary." Did you read that?
STREICHER: That might be possible. It says "thousands," thousands are being mourned. That is no proof that millions were killed. There are no details as to how they came to their end.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If that is the explanation you want us to accept we will leave it. Just go on again to the next page, will you? The 12th of December 1941, a month later: "According to news which has arrived from several sources, thousands of Jews-one even speaks of many thousands-are said to have been executed in Odessa"-and so on.-"Similar reports reach us from Kiev and other Russian cities." Did you read that?
STREICHER: I do not know; and if I had read it then it would not change a thing. That is no proof.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: But you have told the Tribunal, you know, that there was nothing except hints of disappearance. Doesn't it show that you were not telling the truth when you read these extracts?
STREICHER: In that case may I say the following? When the war started we no longer received the Israelitisches Wochenblatt . During the later years one could only get the Israelitisches Wochenblatt through the Police. We got that paper, toward the end, into Germany by smuggling. On one occasion we asked the Police to provide us with foreign newspapers and this weekly, and we were told that it was not possible. But we nevertheless got it. What I mean to say by this is that I did not read every one of those issues. The issues which I did read were confiscated on my farm. Whatever is underlined has been read by me or it was read by my editor in chief. I cannot, therefore, guarantee that I read every article.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: No, I appreciate that and that is why we have quite a number of them. You see, we have an extract for practically every week or month over the course of 3 years. I would just like you to turn to Page 30-A of the "A" bundle. I just want you to see what you were writing after having heard, or after having read, or anyway after those copies of the Israelitisches Wochenblatt had been published. This is a leading article by yourself. "If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way open-the extermination of that people whose father is the devil." And is the word that you use for extermination there "Ausrottung," rooting out, extirpation?
STREICHER: First of all, I would like to ask whether this issue is known to my defense counsel, and if the translation is correct?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: It does not matter. He has copies of all this and he will be able to protect your interests. We are now just testing the truth of the evidence that you have given. Can you tell me, is that "extermination"? Does that mean murder of Jews? What else can it mean?
STREICHER: It depends on the whole context. In that case I want you to read the whole article.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, if there is anything in the rest of the article which can be helpful to you, your counsel will have an opportunity to see the article and be able to put it before the Tribunal. I can assure you that the remainder of your articles, as a general rule, do not assist your case.
STREICHER: When that article appeared, mass killing had already taken place a long time ago.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. Well now, we will not go through this at any length. If you will look at your "B" bundle, your bundle of extracts from the Israelitisches Wochenblatt ...
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should draw his attention to the date on Page 30-A.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I am very much obliged to Your Lordship. [Turning to the defendant.] The 25th of December 1941. If you will glance at "B" bundle you will see a number of extracts going from Page A to Page 21. Now, I would like you to glance at Page 24 of that "B" bundle.
STREICHER: Page 24?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes, Page 24. This is an article which appeared in the Israelitisches Wochenblatt on the 27th of November 1942. I just wondered whether you read this: "At the Zionist Congress of Switzerland the representative of the 'Jewish Agency' in Geneva . . . gave a report on European Jewry.... The number of victims goes into millions. If the present conditions continue and the German program is carried out, it is to be reckoned that, instead of 6 or 7 million Jews in Europe only 2 million will still be left." Then there are the three last lines of the extract: "The Jews who were there had mostly been deported to the notorious unknown destination further to the East. At the end of this winter the number of victims will be 4 million." Is that what you call a hint of disappearance of Jews from the East?
STREICHER: I cannot recollect that I have ever read that but I do want to say that if I had read it I would not have believed it.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well now, let us just turn to the "A" bundle again and look at the article that you wrote on the 17th of December 1942. It is Page 34-A. This is an article which is initialed "STR" so I presume it was written by you. "The London newspaper, The Times , of the 16th of September 1942 published a...
STREICHER: I have not got it yet.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Page 34-A.
STREICHER: Just a minute.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Find it for him. It is headed: "Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth." "The London newspaper, The Times, of 16 September 1942 published a resolution which had been unanimously passed by the Board of Deputies of British Jews. This resolution expresses the grief and horror of the Anglo-Jewish Community at the unspeakable atrocities committed by Germany and her allies and vassals against the Jews of Europe which had only one aim, to exterminate the whole Jewish population of Europe in cold blood." Now, you must have read of that in The Times because you say so.
STREICHER: Yes.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: "Strange how the Jews of the Anglo-Jewish Community suddenly begin to prick up their ears. When the second World War began the Fuehrer of the German nation warned the Jewish warmongers against plunging the world into a blood bath again. Since then the German Fuehrer has warned and prophesied again and again that the second World War, instigated by world Jewry, must necessarily lead to the destruction of Jewry. In his last speech too, the Fuehrer again referred to his prophecies." Did you write that?
STREICHER: Yes, this is merely a quotation. It refers to a forecast from the Fuehrer, of which nobody could possibly tell what it really meant.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. If you had not even read that or the Israelitisches Wochenblatt , did you ever hear of the declaration of the United Nations which was made on the 17th of December 1942? [The document was submitted to the defendant.] Do you remember hearing of that? You appear to have been reading The Times ; you appear to have been reading some copies of the Israelitisches Wochenblatt . Maybe you heard of this declaration which was published in London, Washington, and Moscow at the same time with the assent and support of all Allied nations and dominions. I will just read it to you and see if you remember it: "The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovak, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom, United States, and Yugoslav Governments and also the French National Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler's often repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe. "From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invaders are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation, or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. "The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women, and children. "The above-mentioned Governments and the French National Committee condemn, in the strongest possible terms, this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: They declare that such events can only strengthen the resolve of all freedom-loving peoples to overthrow the barbarous Hitlerite tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn resolution to ensure that those responsible for the crimes shall not escape retribution, and to press on with the necessary practical measures to this end." Did you never hear of this declaration?
STREICHER: I do not know, but if I should have heard of it, then I would have to say the following: After the seizure of power the foreign press published so many atrocity stories, which turned out to be rumors, that I would have had no reason to believe anything like this; nor is there any mention here that millions of Jews were killed.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, you see, it isn't altogether uncorroborated. You say you had no reason to believe it; but your Israelitisches Wochenblatt , which you were subscribing to, was saying exactly the same thing. Would you look at Page 26-B of the "B" bundle? That is the declaration of the United Nations of the 17th of December. Just see what the Israelitisches Wochenblatt says on the 18th. And there I quote the second paragraph: "At that time the Polish Government in London gave the number of Jews executed as 700,000. The Berlin radio hereupon declared that these reports were untrue, but admitted that in Poland 'Jews' had had to be executed because they carried out acts of sabotage." Then the last paragraph quoted: "'Up to the end of September 1942,' writes the Daily Telegraph, '2 million Jews have lost their lives in Germany and in the countries occupied by the Axis, and it is to be feared that the number of victims will be doubled by the end of this year."' Did you happen to read that article?
STREICHER: I cannot remember having read it, but I would not have believed it if I had.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: You see, there is another article in that same paper on the 23rd of December, in the same terms; another on the 30th of December; and another on the 8th of January. Look at what it says on the 8th of January: "The Polish Government in London has issued a new declaration which states that all the information received agrees that a third of the 3 million odd Jews have lost their lives." Did you read that?
STREICHER: I do not know, but I have to repeat, I would not have believed it.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well now, just let's see just what you were writing on the 28th of January. Look at 35-A of your own bundle; 35-A. Now just see what your Chief Editor, the witness you are going to call, I understand, Hiemer-see what he has got to say first of all: "But the ghetto too, which has today been re-established in nearly all European countries, is only an interim solution, for mankind once awakened will not merely solve the ghetto question but the Jewish question in its totality. A time will come when the present demands of the Jews will be fulfilled. The ghetto will have disappeared-and with it Jewry." What is he referring to, if he isn't referring to the mass killing, murder, of the Jewish race?
STREICHER: That was a statement of his opinion, his conviction. That conviction must be understood in the same way as something which a Jewish author wrote in his book in America. Erich Kauffmann wrote that German men capable of fathering children should be sterilized, and in that manner the German people should be exterminated. It was at the same time that Hiemer wrote his article, and I want to say that the very severe tone in Der Stuermer at that time was due to that book from America. The interrogating officers know-and so does my counsel-that I have repeatedly pointed out that I wanted that book to be produced. It was in the Voelkischer Beobachter . If in America an author called Erich Kauffmann can publicly demand that all men in Germany capable of fathering children should be sterilized, for the purpose of exterminating the German people, then I say, eye for eye and tooth for tooth. This is a theoretical literary matter.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well. I am sure we have heard your explanation. Let's see what you have to say about your own article on the same date. I quote from the middle of the next paragraph: "But now, in the fourth year of this war, world Jewry is beginning in its retrospective considerations to understand that the destiny of Jewry is finding its fulfillment at the hands of German National Socialism." What did you mean by that? Perhaps I should have quoted a little earlier, going back to the beginning: "When, with the outbreak of the second World War, world Jewry again began to manifest themselves as warmongers, Adolf Hitler announced to the world from the platform of the German Reichstag that the World War conjured up by world Jewry would result in the self-destruction of Jewry. This prophecy was the first big warning. It was met with derision from the Jews, as were all the subsequent warnings." And then you go on to say: "But now, in the fourth year of this war, world Jewry is beginning in its retrospective considerations to understand that the destiny of Jewry is finding its fulfillment at the hands of German National Socialism." What did you mean by that?
STREICHER: Pardon me?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: What do you mean by saying "World Jewry is finding its fulfillment at the hands of National Socialism"? How did you mean that National Socialism was finding the fulfillment of Jewry's destiny?
STREICHER: National Socialism could not fulfill the fate, that is to say, find the solution, since the Fuehrer intervened with the hand of destiny. That was not a solution. During an interrogation I pointed out that I who personally wanted a total solution, was, right from the beginning, against trying to solve the Jewish problem by means of pogroms. If I said that the destiny of Jewry was to be fulfilled by National Socialism, then I wanted to say that through National Socialism the world would gain the knowledge and the realization that the Jewish problem must be solved internationally.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Let's just go on. "That which the Fuehrer of the German people announced to the world as a prophecy at the beginning of this second World War is now being fulfilled with unrelenting inevitability. World Jewry, which wanted to reap big dividends from the blood of the warring nations, is rushing with gigantic steps toward its extirpation." And again you use the word "Ausrottung." Does that mean just as it sounds, as though the fulfillment that you were aiming at was warning the world about Jewry? What do you mean by it? "Rushing with gigantic steps toward its extirpation"-Ausrottung. What did you mean by it?
STREICHER: This is a warning. The Fuehrer made a prophecy; nobody could interpret that prophecy properly. The prophecy was not quoted only in this article, but in 10 others. Again and again we referred to these prophecies, the first of which had been made in 1929. Today we know what the Fuehrer wanted to say; at that time we did not. And I confess quite openly that with this quotation we wanted to warn world Jewry: "Against their threat, this threat." So as to defend myself I might mention in this connection that the author, Dr. Emil Ludwig Kohn, who had left Germany and emigrated to France, had written in the paper Le Fanal , in 1934, "Hitler does not want war, but he is being forced into it. Britain has the last word." Thus...
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: We are not discussing war now. We are discussing the extermination, the mass murder of Jews, by the National Socialists. That is what we are discussing. Let me read on: "When Adolf Hitler stepped before the German people 20 years ago to submit to them the National Socialist demands which pointed the way into the future, he also made the promise which was to have the gravest repercussions; that of freeing the world from its Jewish tormentors. How wonderful it is to know that this great man and leader is following up this promise with practical action. It will be the greatest deed in the history of mankind." Do you say that you are not putting forward propaganda for the policy of mass extermination which the Nazi Government had set out to do?
STREICHER: We too had freedom of the press like democratic countries. Every author knew of the forecast, which perhaps later on turned out to be a fact, and could write about it. That is what I did.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Very well.
STREICHER: But for my defense, Mr. Prosecutor, I want to be allowed to say that wars too can be mass murder, with their bombs, et cetera . And if it is proved that someone says that we are forcing Hitler into war, then I can certainly say that a man who knows that Hitler is being forced into war is a mass murderer.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: With the permission of the Tribunal I am going to interrupt you again because we are not discussing whether or not Hitler was forced into war. We will leave that now. Just let us go on and see if you are really speaking the truth in saying that while you are writing these articles you are not perfectly well aware of what was happening in the Eastern territories. We got as far as January 1943. I would like you to just look at one or two more of the Israelitisches Wochenblatt and see if you remember reading any of these. Will you look at Page 30-B the 26th of February, in your "B" bundle? "Exchange reports from the Polish Government circles in London that Warsaw, Lvov, Lodz and other cities have been 'liquidated,' and that nobody from the ghettos remained alive. The last investigations have ascertained that only about 650,000 Jews remain out of 2,800,000." Listen to me. Did you read that? Do you remember it?
STREICHER: I do not know. For months, perhaps half a year, we did not get an issue, but if I had read it, I would not have believed that either.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Did you believe Hitler? If you will turn over the page to 31-B, did you believe Hitler? According to the last two lines quoted in the Israelitisches Wochenblatt of the 5th of March 1943: "Hitler, in his proclamation of 24 February, again proclaimed the extermination of the Jews in Europe as his goal." Did you believe your own beloved Fuehrer when he was saying the same things as the Israelitisches Wochenblatt , the United Nations, and The Times newspaper in London?
STREICHER: No. I declare that whoever got to know the Fuehrer's deepest emotions and his soul, as I have personally, and then later had to learn from his testament that he, in full possession of his faculties, consciously gave the order for mass extermination, is confronted with a riddle. I state here...
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: We really don't want another long speech about the Fuehrer. Just turn over the page and look at what is being said on the 26th of March: "The report of the Polish Government on the measures against the Jewish population is published in full in the English press. A passage reads, 'In the town of Vilna 50,000 Jews were murdered, in Rovno 14,000; in Lvov half of the total Jewish population.' "Many details are also given about the use of poison gas, as at Chelm, of electricity in Belzec, of the deportations from Warsaw, the surrounding of blocks of houses, and of the attacks with machine guns." Did you read that one?
STREICHER: I do not know. However, that shootings must have occurred, of course, where Jews committed sabotage, et cetera , is self-evident. During a war that is considered as a matter of course. However, the figures which are quoted here were just simply not believable.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes. I understand you to say that now, but what I do not understand is what you meant when you said this morning that the Israelitisches Wochenblatt made no mention of murders and gave no figures. You didn't say that the figures were unbelievable; you told this Tribunal, on your oath, that the newspaper contained nothing except the hints of disappearance, with no mention of figures. What did you mean by that?
STREICHER: I have said the truth under oath, but it is possible that one might not remember everything. During an interrogation some time back I stated, based on memory, that an issue must exist which mentions the disappearance of Jews, and so on. It is in the Israelitisches Wochenblatt , and I thought I said that it was in 1943 and it is true. If one article after the other is put before me-well, even if I had seen it, how can I remember it? But that I, under oath, should have deliberately told you an untruth, that is, at any rate, not so.