dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: All right. Now, turn to the next page of the English text; it is the paragraph beginning as follows: "In addition it will eventually become necessary to occupy with troops not only Leningrad, but also Moscow. This occupation will probably differ considerably from that in the Baltic provinces, the Ukraine, and the Caucasus. It will be aimed at the suppression of any Russian and Bolshevik resistance and will necessitate an absolutely ruthless person both as regards the military representation and also the eventual political direction. The problems arising from this need not be detailed here. If it is not intended to maintain a permanent military administration, the undersigned would recommend the Gauleiter of East Prussia, Erich Koch, as Reich Commissioner in Moscow." Did you recommend Koch for that job as a particularly ruthless man in April of 1941? "Yes" or "no"?
ROSENBERG: Yes...
MR. DODD: Just a minute. You have done a lot of talking here for the last day and today if you will just give me a chance once in a while. He is the same man you told us a minute ago you did not know to be particularly ruthless until after he did these terrible things in the Ukraine. Now, it is very clear you did know it in April of 1941, isn't it? What is your answer to that?
ROSENBERG: That is not correct; that is not laid down here. I have stated that I know from Koch's writings from 1933 and 1934 that he had a special liking for the Russian people. I knew Koch as a man of initiative in East Prussia. I had to expect that at the center of Moscow and around Moscow a very difficult job would have to be done. For here was the center of gravity of Bolshevism and here under certain circumstances the greatest resistance would arise. Then I did not want to have Koch in the Eastern territories and not in the Ukraine because I did not believe I had to fear such resistance there. There was, on one side, Koch's devotion to the Russians, on the other side he was a man with economic initiative; finally I knew he was supported in such a manner that he was intended for some job in the East by the Fuehrer as well as by the Reich Marshal.
MR. DODD: When you were looking for a ruthless man you suggested Koch as early as April of 1941.
ROSENBERG: This expression refers here rather to initiative and, of course, to the view that he would fight any Bolshevik resistance ruthlessly; but not in the sense that he would suppress a foreign race or try to exterminate foreign cultures.
MR. DODD: The truth of the matter is that you had some peculiar and odd interest in the Ukraine and you had somebody else in mind for that job but you knew Koch was a bad actor and you wanted him in another part of Russia, is it not?
ROSENBERG: No, for the Ukraine I wanted State Secretary Backeor my Chief of Staff Schickedanz, as can be seen from this document. I wanted State Secretary Backe because he is a German from the Caucasus and speaks Russian, knows the entire southern territory and probably could have worked very well there. I did not get him and I was forced to accept Koch, I would like to say' against my personal protest in the meeting of 16 July 1941.
MR. DODD: Well, if that is your answer I do not care to go any further with it. With respect to your attitude towards the Jewish people, in your Frankfurt speech in 1938 you suggested that they all had to leave Europe and Germany, did you not?
ROSENBERG: This phrasing was used.
MR. DODD: All you need to say is "yes" or "no." Did you do that or not in your speech in Frankfurt in 1938?
ROSENBERG: Yes, but I certainly cannot answer "yes" or "nor on an incorrect quotation!
MR. DODD: I do not think you need to explain anything at all. I merely asked you whether you said that in Frankfurt in your Party Day speech.
ROSENBERG: Yes, in substance that is correct.
MR. DODD: Now, in your Party Day speech to which you made reference yesterday, you said you used harsh language about the Jews. In those days you were objecting to the fact that they were in certain professions, I suppose, and things of that character. Is that a fair statement?
ROSENBERG: I said yesterday that in two speeches I demanded a chivalrous solution and equal treatment, and I said the foreign nations might not accuse us of discriminating against the Jewish people, so long as these foreign nations discriminate against our nation . . .
MR. DODD: Yes, very well. Did you ever talk about the extermination of the Jews?
ROSENBERG: I have not in general spoken about the extermination of the Jews in the sense of this term. One has to consider the words here. The term "extermination" has been used by the British Prime Minister...
MR. DODD: You will get around to the words. You just tell me now whether you ever said it or not? You said that, did you not?
ROSENBERG: Not in a single speech in that sense...
MR. DODD: I understand the sense. Did you ever talk about it with anybody as a matter of State policy or Party policy, about the extermination of the Jews?
ROSENBERG: In a conference with the Fuehrer there was once an open discussion on this question about an intended speech which was not delivered. The sense of it was that now a war was going on and that this threat which had been made should not be mentioned again. That whole speech was also not delivered.
MR. DODD: When was it you were going to deliver that speech? Approximately what was the date?
ROSENBERG: In December 1941.
MR. DODD: Then you have written into your speech remarks about the extermination of Jews, haven't you? Answer that "yes" or "no."
ROSENBERG: I have said already that that word does not have the sense which you attribute to it.
MR. DODD: I will get around to the word and the meaning of it. I am asking you, did you not use the word or the term "extermination of the Jews" in the speech which you were prepared to make in the Sportpalast in December of 1941? Now, you can answer that pretty simply.
ROSENBERG: That may be, but I do not remember. I myself did not read the phrasing of the draft any further. In which form it was expressed I can no longer say.
MR. DODD: Well then, perhaps we can help you on that. I will ask you be shown Document 1517-PS. It becomes Exhibit USA-824. [Document 1517-PS was submitted to the defendant.] Now, this is also a memorandum of yours written by you about a discussion you had with Hitler on the 14th of December 1941, and it is quite clear from the first paragraph that you and Hitler were discussing a speech which you were to deliver in the Sportpalast in Berlin, and if you will look at the second paragraph, you will find these words: "I remarked on the Jewish question that the comments about the New York Jews must perhaps be changed somewhat after the conclusion (of matters ~ the East). I took the standpoint not to speak of the extermination (Ausrottung) of Jewry. The Fuehrer affirmed this view and said that they had laid the burden of war on us and that they had brought the destruction; it is no wonder if the results would strike them first." Now, you have indicated that you have some difficulty with the meaning of that word, and I am going to ask you about the word "Ausrottung." I am going to ask that you be shown-you are familiar with the standard German-English dictionary, Cassell's, I suppose, are you? Do you know this word, ever heard of it?
ROSENBERG: No.
MR. DODD: This is something you will be interested in. Will you look up and read out to the Tribunal what the definition of "Ausrottung" is?
ROSENBERG: I do not need a foreign dictionary in order to explain the various meanings "Ausrottung" may have in the German language. One can exterminate an idea, an economic system, a social order, and as a final consequence, also a group of human beings, certainly. Those are the many possibilities which are contained in that word. For that I do not need an English-German dictionary. Translations from German into English are so often wrong-and just as in that last document you have submitted to me, I heard again the translation of "Herrenrasse." In the document itself "Herrenrasse" is not even mentioned; however, there is the term "ein falsches Herrenmenschentum" (a false master mankind). Apparently everything is translated here in another sense.
MR. DODD: All right, I am not interested in that. Let us stay on this term of "Ausrottung." I take it then that you agree it does mean to "wipe out" or to "kill off," as it is understood, and that you did use the term in speaking to Hitler.
ROSENBERG: Here I heard again a different translation, which again used new German words, so I cannot determine what you wanted to express in English.
MR. DODD: Are you very serious in pressing this apparent inability of yours to agree with me about this ward or are you trying to kill time? Don't you know that there are plenty of people in this courtroom who speak German and who agree that that word does mean to "wipe out," to "extirpate?"
ROSENBERG: It means "to overcome" on one side and then it is to be used not with respect to individuals but rather to juridical entities, to certain historical traditions. On the other side this word has been used with respect to the German people and we have also not believed that in consequence thereof 60 millions of Germans would be shot. 17 April 4G
MR. DODD: I want to remind you that this speech of yours in which you use the term "Ausrottung" was made about 6 months after Himmler told Hoess, whom you heard on this witness stand, to start exterminating the Jews. That is a fact, is it not?
ROSENBERG: No, that is not correct, for Adolf Hitler said in his declaration before the Reichstag: Should a new world war be started by these attacks of the emigrants and their backers, then as a consequence there would be an extermination and an extirpation. That has been understood as a result and as a political threat. Apparently, a similar political threat was also used by me before the war against America broke out. And, when the war had already broken out, I have apparently said that, since it has come to this, there is no use to speak of it at all.
MR. DODD: Well, actually, the Jews were being exterminated in the Eastern Occupied Territories at that time and thereafter, weren't they?
ROSENBERG: Then, may I perhaps ray something about the use of the words here? We are speaking here of extermination of Jewry; there is also still a difference between "Jewry" and "the Jews."
MR. DODD: I asked you if it was not a fact that at that time and later on Jews were being exterminated in the Occupied Eastern Territories which were under your ministry? Will you answer that 'yes" or "no"?
ROSENBERG: Yes. I quoted a document on that yesterday.
MR. DODD: Yes, and after that you told the Tribunal or, as l understood you at least, you wanted the Tribunal to believe that that was being done by the Police and without any of your people being involved in it; is that so?
ROSENBERG: I have heard from a witness that a district commissioner is said to have participated in these things in Vilna, and I have heard from another witness that in other cities the report came through that the Police would carry it out. From Document 1184 I gathered that a district commissioner opposed in every possible way and protested against this so-called "Schweinerei" (scandalous doings).
MR. DODD: Dr. Leibbrandt was your subordinate; he was in charge of Division II in your Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, wasn't he?
ROSENBERG: Yes, for a time.
MR. DODD: Now, for the second time, I'll ask that you be shown Document 3663-PS, Exhibit USA-825. [Document 3663-PS was submitted to the defendant.] Now, this document consists of three parts as you will notice. The first page is a letter written by Dr. Leibbrandt on the stationery of the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories and it is dated 31 October 1941; that's not too many days before you had your conversation with the Fuehrer about your speech, and it is addressed to the Reich Commissioner for the Ostland in Riga. That was Lohse, the man whom you recommended. The letter says: "The Reich Security Main Office has complained that the Reich Commissioner for the Ostland has forbidden execution of Jews in Libau. I request a report in regard to this matter by return mail. By order"-signed-"Dr. Leibbrandt." Now, if you will turn to the next page, you will see the answer Turn that document over if you have the original-do you? You will see the answer, dated Riga, the 15th of November 1941, to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, Berlin. "Subject: Execution of Jews, re: Decree." It refers to the letter of Leibbrandt, apparently, of the 31st of October 1941, and it says: "I have forbidden the wild execution of Jews in Libau because they were not justifiable in the manner in which they were carried out. I should like to be informed whether your inquiry of 31 October is to be regarded as a directive to liquidate all Jews in the Ostland. Shall this take place without regard to age and sex and economic interests of the Wehrmacht, for instance in specialists in the armament industry?" And there is a note in different handwriting: "Of course, the cleansing of the Ostland of Jews is a main task. Its solution, however, must be harmonized with the necessities of war production." It continues: "So far, I have not been able to find such a directive, either in the regulations regarding the Jewish question in the 'Brown Portfolio' or in other decrees." Now, that has the initial "L" for "Lohse," doesn't it, at the bottom of it?
MR. DODD: And then, if you'll look at the third page-no, it is another document. There are only two parts to that document. Now, I wish that you would look at Document 3666-PS, which becomes Exhibit USA-826.
THE PRESIDENT: That has on it the initial "L," has it?
MR. DODD: The original has, Your Honor; yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And the defendant agrees that that is the initial of Lohse; is that right?
ROSENBERG: That could hardly be Lohse. I do not know Lohse's initial. I do not know.
MR. DODD: Well, it's very . . .
ROSENBERG: It could also be Leibbrandt; I do not know.
MR. DODD: You're not willing to say that that second letter was from Lohse and that that is his initial on the bottom of it?
ROSENBERG: That I cannot say.
MR. DODD: All right.
ROSENBERG: That I cannot say because usually typewritten letters are sent anywhere.
MR. DODD: Well, we're...
ROSENBERG: This note in the back is not quite clear to me. Essentially, however, it means that this was a protest against police measures which had become known and that an instruction...
MR. DODD: We will go into what it means in a minute. We're just talking about the initial "L." While we're tallying about the initial, will you look at it and see if there are any "R's," capital "R"?
ROSENBERG: Yes, here is an "L."
MR. DODD: Yes, "R"?
ROSENBERG: Yes, here are two "R's."
MR. DODD: Did you put those on there?
ROSENBERG: No.
MR. DODD: You initialled them, did you?
ROSENBERG: I cannot decipher that as my "R."
MR. DODD: You say that it is not your "R"? We will have to be clear about this. You'd have to know your own initial when you saw it anywhere.
ROSENBERG: I never made such a pointed "R" on the top. You can compare it with my handwriting.
MR. DODD: We'll do that; don't worry. I just want to ask you now if that is your initial or not?
ROSENBERG: I cannot identify that as my initial.
ME. DODD: Do you say that it is not your initial?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
MR. DODD: All right. Now, I wish you'd look at Document 3666-PS, which is also related to these other documents, and that is also a letter written on the stationery of the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and it is dated December 18, 1941. Subject: Jewish Question. Re: Correspondence of 15 November 1941. This is an answer then to the letter marked "L," inquiring whether or not execution of the Jews is to be understood as a fixed policy. "Clarification of the Jewish question has most likely been achieved by now through verbal discussions. Economic considerations should on principle remain unconsidered in the settlement of the problem. Moreover, it is requested that questions arising be settled directly with the Higher SS and Police Leader. By order (signed) Brautigam." Have you seen that letter before?
ROSENBERG: No, I have not seen it; in my opinion no. Here I see again such an "R." pointed on the top, and I cannot identify that as my "R" either.
MR. DODD: So that you do not identify that as having your initial, either?
ROSENBERG: Well, I could simply not identify that as my "R" because this was a letter, signed by Brautigam sent from the Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories to the Ostland, and the notes on the top are from an office that has received that letter.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to an explicit error here? This "R" is in connection with a "K." That apparently means "Reichskommissar."
MR. DODD: I am not discussing the "R" on the top of the letter; I am discussing the one of the handwritten letter.
ROSENBERG: Well, it can be seen from this "R" now quite unequivocally that this concerns the man who received the letter. "Received on 22 December-R." And it is addressed from the Ministry to the "Ostland." That note, therefore, was written by a person living in Riga, and that is the same "R" which can be found also on the other document.
MR. DODD: Who is your Reich Commissioner in the East for Riga?
ROSENBERG: Lohse.
MR. DODD: His name didn't begin with "R." did it?
ROSENBERG: Yes, but it is clear that this letter obviously was initialled in his department.
DR. THOMA: May I also help the Tribunal in this matter? In the handwritten thing with the German "L" you will find on the left margin "WV 1112/41," which means to be presented again (Wiedervorlage). And then you find "presented (vorgelegt) 1/12141 R." That appears to have taken place in the office of the Reich Commissioner and it is a first draft and therefore it was marked only with the first letter of his name.
MR. DODD: We do not accept that as being any statement with which we can prove this at this Trial. I think the matter as to whose initial it is will be presented later for determination.
THE PRESIDENT: What do the words at the top mean, "The Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories"?
MR. DODD: That is the stationery upon which it is written. It is handwritten on this particular paper because this whole letter was handwritten on the back of the first letter. These were both found in this defendant's office in Berlin. [Turning to the defendant.] Well, now, I'd like to call your attention to another document, Number 36.
ROSENBERG: I maintain emphatically that that initial "R" was put down by the person who received the letter, to whom the letter was addressed.
MR. DODD: Wells we'll get around that. Document Number 36-I ask that you be shown Document Number 3428, which becomes Exhibit USA-827.
THE PRESIDENT: Give me the number again, will you?
MR. DODD: I am sorry. 3428-PS becomes 827, USA-827. [Turning to the defendant.] Now, this is a letter written from Minsk in the occupied area on July 31, 1942, and it is written by Kube, Kube. He was another one of your subordinates, wasn't he? Will you answer that please?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
MR. DODD: And it is written to Lohse, the Reich Commissioner for the Eastern territory, isn't it?
ROSENBERG: Yes, that's right.
MR. DODD: Now, then, let's look at it: "Combating of partisans and Action against Jews in the District General of White Ruthenia." It says: "In all the clashes with partisans in White Ruthenia it has been proved that Jewry, in the former Polish part"-and so on-"is the main exponent of the partisan movement. In consequence, the treatment of Jewry in White Ruthenia is mainly a matter of political concern...." Then, moving down a sentence or two: "In exhaustive discussions with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the exceedingly capable leader of the SD, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, it was ascertained that we have liquidated in the last 10 weeks about 55,000 Jews in White Ruthenia. In the area of Minsk, Jewry has been completely eliminated, without endangering the manpower commitment. In the predominantly Polish district of Lida, 16,000 Jews; in Slonim, 8,000 Jews"-and so forth-"have been liquidated. Owing to an encroachment by the Army supply and communications zone already reported to you, the preparations made by us for liquidation of the Jews in the Glebokie area, have been disturbed. The Army supply and communications zone, without contacting me, has liquidated 10,000 Jews, whose systematical elimination had been provided for by us in any event. In the city of Minsk approximately 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July, 6,500 of them Russian Jews, predominantly aged persons, women and children; the remainder consisting of Jews unfit for commitment to labor, the greater majority of whom were deported to Minsk in November of last year from Vienna, Brunn, Bremen, and Berlin, by order of the Fuehrer. "The area of Sluzk, too, had been relieved of several thousand Jews. The same applies to Novogrodek and Vileika. Radical measures are imminent for Baranowicze and Hanzewitschi. In Baranowicze alone, approximately 10,000 Jews are still living in the city itself; of these, 9,000 Jews will be liquidated next month." And it goes on to say: "In the city of Minsk 2,600 Jews from Germany are left over.
MR. DODD: In addition, all 6,000 Russian Jews and Jewesses who during the action stayed with the units to which they were assigned for work are still alive. Even in the future Minsk will still retain its character as the strongest center of the Jewish labor commitment, necessitated for the present by the concentration of the armament industries and by the rail problems. In all other areas, the number of Jews to be drafted for labor commitment will be limited by the SD and by me to 800 at the most, but if possible to 500..." And so on. It tells of other situations with respect to Jews, all of which I do not think it is necessary to read. But I do want to call your attention to the last paragraph, the last sentence: "I fully agree with the Commander of the SD in White Ruthenia, that we shall liquidate every shipment of Jews which is not ordered or announced by our superior offices, to prevent further disturbances in White Ruthenia." And up above I did omit one sentence or two that I wanted to read: "Naturally, after the termination of the economic demands of the Wehrmacht, the SD and I would like it best definitely to eliminate Jewry in the District General of White Ruthenia. For the time being, the necessary demands of the Wehrmacht, which are the main employers of Jews, are considered." 17 April 4G I ought to tell you as well that this document was also found in your office in Berlin. Now, that is a letter...
ROSENBERG: That seems very improbable to me, that it has been found in my office in Berlin. If so, it can be at most only that the Reich Commissioner for the Ostland had sent all his files to Berlin, packed in boxes. It was not in my office at that time, and this letter was also never presented to me. There is stamped here, "The Reich Commissioner for the Ostland," not the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. I stated yesterday, however, that a number of such happenings were reported to me as individual actions in the fighting, and that I received this one report from Sluzk personally, and Gauleiter Meyer was immediately charged to protest to Heydrich and to order an investigation. That presupposes that he, the Gauleiter Meyer, did not know of and did not think of such a general action on order of a central command.
MR. DODD: Well, I only want to suggest to you that it is a strange coincidence that two of your top men were in communication in this tone in 1942 without your knowledge. Did you also tell the Tribunal yesterday that you understood that most of the difficulty or a large part of the difficulty in the East for the Jewish people came from the local population? Do you remember saying that yesterday?
ROSENBERG: I did not receive this translation.
MR. DODD: I asked you if it was not a fact that yesterday you told the Tribunal that much of the difficulty for the Jews in the East came from the local population of those areas.