dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. NELTE: From this document I found corroboration of the answer of the defendant through the witness that if an order had been issued on 4 March 1944, as it was presented here, it would have had to be contained in this document.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it is a waste of time, Dr. Nelte.
DR. NELTE: I shall be through in a few minutes, Mr. President. [Turning to the witness] Witness, would you please look on Page 3 of this document, under Number 2. It reads: "The OKW is requested to inform the prisoner-of-war camps that in the interest of camouflage the recaptured officers are not to be turned over directly to Mauthausen but to the local State Police authority." Did you ever in your activity in the OKW know anything of such a request or such an order?
WESTHOFF: That is not familiar to me. That also took place at a time when I was not chief.
DR. NELTE: But on taking over on 1 April 1944 you must have known of all important events or must have taken note of them?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Did you ever find out in this connection that such a document had been presented?
WESTHOFF: No, I do not know of it.
DR. NELTE: And now the last question. Look at the first page of this document. It is a teletype from the Chief of the Sipo and SD, of 4 March '44. It reads in the first part as follows: "The OKW has ordered the following: Every recaptured escaped prisoner of war officer"- et cetera-"is, after his recapture, to be turned over to the Chief of the Sipo and SD with the code word 'Stule III'...." The Defendant Keitel has stated here that he does not know of such an OKW order. I ask you, did you find such a command, such an order in the files, in the files which must have been presented to you when you took over office on 1 April 1944?
WESTHOFF: I did not find such an order, but an order of this kind existed without a doubt.
DR. NELTE: In what way?
WESTHOFF: So far as I recall, General Graevenitz brought this order either from the field headquarters or from the General Office of the Wehrmacht.
DR. NELTE: How is it possible then that such an order was not in your files?
WESTHOFF: Because there was an order that this order was to exist only orally.
DR. NELTE: Then please tell me what the procedure was when such an order was given orally.
WESTHOFF: It could be transmitted orally.
DR. NELTE: That is, your office?
WESTHOFF: It was then transmitted through the Chief of the Prisoner of War Department.
DR. NELTE: Chief?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: And you know that such an order was transmitted?
WESTHOFF: General Von Graevenitz brought such an order with him and, as far as I know, the order was also transmitted further.
DR. NELTE: Then you certainly must have known what "Stule III" meant?
WESTHOFF: No, that I did not know. I have said that I knew only that there was an order to turn over these recaptured prisoners to the Gestapo but I cannot remember details because I never saw a written order.
DR. NELTE: Can you then state that this order, as you see it there before you, was issued by the OKW?
WESTHOFF: No, that I cannot say.
DR. NELTE: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken.]
DR. KURT KAUFFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President; permit me to put only a few questions which refer to the Defendant Kaltenbrunner. Witness...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we are going to call the Witness Wielen afterwards. You realize that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: But you want to ask this witness questions, don't you?
DR. KAUFFMANN: The name Kaltenbrunner has been mentioned here, and I have only a few questions. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, you mentioned a little earlier that you spoke with the Gestapo, and that you received no information from the Gestapo. Do you know with whom you spoke at that time?
WESTHOFF: No. The conferences with the Gestapo took place continuously. In cases when we missed prisoners of war and we did not know where they were, we continuously made inquiries at the Gestapo. But, on one occasion I was with Kaltenbrunner- namely, on the occasion of some other matter which had nothing to do with Allied prisoners of war-and since this occasion gave me the opportunity to talk to Herr Kaltenbrunner personally, I immediately brought the matter up for discussion and tried to have that order rescinded. Kaltenbrunner and Muller were present at the time.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Later on in Berlin after the Sagan case you talked to Kaltenbrunner personally?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Was the Sagan case discussed there?
WESTHOFF: I talked about the Sagan matter there with Kaltenbrunner and I expressly pointed out that this was an unbearable situation.
DR. KAUFFMANN: About how long after the Sagan case was that?
WESTHOFF: I cannot tell you that any more now; it may have been 4 weeks later.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was Kaltenbrunner's view on this problem? What did he tell you?
WESTHOFF: Kaltenbrunner himself said next to nothing to me, but rather Muller carried on the conversation, and I left without having been given either "yes" or "no."
DR. KAUFFMANN: Was Muller also present during the second conference in Berlin?
WESTHOFF: I was in Berlin only once.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Wasn't the subject of that conversation in any way the question as to how one was to form the prisoner of war system in the future?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. KAUFFMANN: In other words, the Sagan case was discussed exclusively?
WESTHOFF: Not the Sagan case exclusively. But I was ordered to see Kaltenbrunner for another reason, namely, because of German prisoners of war, but made use of the opportunity to discuss this case with him at once. That is the only time that I saw Kaltenbrunner at all.
DR. KAUFFMANN: During that conference you neither received a positive nor negative answer?
WESTHOFF: That is correct.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was the impression with which you left that conference?
WESTHOFF: The impression was that apparently not much could be done.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you then report to your superiors about this conference?
WESTHOFF: Yes, I duly informed the General Office of the Wehrmacht about it at that time.
DR. KAUFFMANN: What was the content of that report?
WESTHOFF: That I had again spoken with Herr Kaltenbrunner about it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Well, that alone, Witness, would certainly not be enough. In this important matter you must certainly have reported then about the business of that conference, not just about the fact?
WESTHOFF: Of course, I reported about the business; that I had brought the matter up again, and that the Gestapo took the attitude that they wanted to wait.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
DR. OTTO STAHMER: (Counsel for Defendant Goering): Witness, did you depose the statement from your own knowledge or did you learn of this fact only through Field Marshal Keitel, namely, the fact that the meeting mentioned by you between Hitler, Himmler, and Keitel regarding the escape of these 80 flyers is supposed to have taken place in the presence of Reich Marshal Goering?
WESTHOFF: I learned of it through Field Marshal Keitel.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions. [Dr. Laternser approached the lectern.]
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, if you are going to ask questions on behalf of the High Command-is that what you wanted to do?
DR. LATERNSER: I was going to ask the witness a few questions on behalf of the OKW and the General Staff.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has given his evidence about the fact that the OKW had nothing to do with these matters in connection with prisoner-of-war camps and he has not been cross-examined with reference to that by the Prosecution; so that the matter is not in dispute. And therefore it appears to the Tribunal that no question need be put by you. You better specify your question.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, up to now the procedure has been that whenever a witness appeared, every Defense Counsel had the opportunity to ask this witness questions which he considered necessary. Are we now going to depart from that?
THE PRESIDENT: I did not ask you to argue the matter; I asked you to specify your questions.
DR. LATERNSER: Very well. [Turning to the witness.] Witness, were you yourself active in the Eastern campaign?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. LATERNSER: In what capacity?
WESTHOFF: First of all in command of a battalion and then a regiment.
DR. LATERNSER: In what sector was your unit engaged?
WESTHOFF: To begin with, in the Ukraine; later before Leningrad, and then at StarayaRussa.
DR. LATERNSER: Before the beginning of the Eastern campaign did you give special instructions to your company commanders?
WESTHOFF: In what respect?
DR. LATERNSER: After you had received the order to attack, I assume you must have gathered your company commanders together as battalion commander and discussed some orders with them before the beginning of the campaign.
WESTHOFF: I told them how they had to conduct themselves during the battle, how they had to behave' toward the Russian population, and how they had to act toward the prisoners of war.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, and what kind of instructions did you give your company commanders?
WESTHOFF: I very briefly gave the company commanders instructions that every prisoner of war was to be treated as he would like to be treated himself were he to become a prisoner.
DR. LATERNSER: You said that specifically?
WESTHOFF: Yes, that was ordered.
DR. LATERNSER: How did the troops behave when they marched in?
WESTHOFF: We fought practically all the way to Kiev, and were marching, and had hardly any contact with the civilian population.
DR. LATERNSER: During the advance into Russia did you notice considerable destruction?
WESTHOFF: Partly, yes; in part, villages had been destroyed. Also small towns had been destroyed.
DR. LATERNSER: Railways?
WESTHOFF: Railways also, yes.
DR. LATERNSER: Industrial works?
WESTHOFF: Yes-I saw that afterwards outside of Leningrad- yes indeed!
DR. LATERNSER: In your sector was the order carried out by which Soviet Russian commissars were to be shot after being taken prisoners?
WESTHOFF: We had nothing to do with that. Prisoners of war that we took were all sent back to the division right away. We ourselves, the troop commanders-regimental and battalion commanders-had nothing to do with it, had even no opportunity at all to do this.
DR. LATERNSER: Witness, you have not answered my question correctly. I have asked you whether you had applied the order.
WESTHOFF: I know nothing about it.
DR. LATERNSER: Did you ever receive the order to take action against the Jewish population in Russia?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. LATERNSER: Did your troops illtreat or shoot civilian persons or prisoners?
WESTHOFF: No! There was a special order for the maintenance of discipline, stating that this was not to be permitted.
DR. LATERNSER: Was plundering allowed?
WESTHOFF: No, this was strictly forbidden.
DR. LATERNSER: Did any plundering occur?
WESTHOFF: Not by my troops.
DR. LATERNSER: Did members of your unit commit rape?
WESTHOFF: No; in no case known to me.
DR. LATERNSER: Was the civilian population compelled to clear the houses for complete occupation by the troops?
WESTHOFF: No. There was merely an order saying that those houses in which the offices were set up had to be cleared. Other houses did not have to be evacuated, and as a rule the system was that I, for example, whenever I was billeted, would always sleep in the same room with the people who lived there.
DR. LATERNSER: Have you experienced destruction which was not due to military necessity?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. LATERNSER: Have you on occasion or frequently fed the hungry civilian population from the field kitchens?
WESTHOFF: The regiment was ordered that all food which was surplus in the regiment was to be issued to the population mostly at midday or in the evening, so far as we had any contact at all with the population.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes. And then one last question: Do you consider it possible that German soldiers invited Russian children for coffee, and then killed these children by giving them poisoned cake?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You aren't suggesting, are you, that this witness is one for the High Command?
DR. LATERNSER: No, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you suggesting that you ought to be entitled to examine every witness who has any military rank on behalf of the High Command.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, as far as I understood it, it has been the rule up to now, and the procedure has been, that every means of evidence-thus also witnesses who are brought in here- could be examined by everyone of Defense Counsel; and I have adhered to that rule up to now, and also felt that it was my duty to put those questions which I have put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, I asked you very simply: Are you suggesting that you are entitled to ask questions on behalf of the High Command of every person who is called here who has any military rank?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it seems to me that would be highly cumulative. We shall then have evidence on behalf of the High Command from possibly 30 or 40 witnesses. And when you say that it has been allowed in the past, every other member of the Defense has been confined to evidence, so far as possible, which is not cumulative. That is the reason why I interrupted you, because it seems to me if you are going to do that, to claim the right to ask questions of everybody who has military rank-and you have done it up to now-the evidence is going to be extremely cumulative on your part.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President. . .
THE PRESIDENT: You see, Dr. Laternser, the questions you have been putting to this witness are questions directed to show that the regimental officers and soldiers in the German Army behaved properly and could not be expected to behave improperly. That does not seem to be really relevant to the questions to whether the High Command is a criminal organization or not. And in any event it is-in my opinion, at any rate-cumulative if you do that.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, already so much heavily incriminating material regarding the Wehrmacht has been presented, especially by the Russian Prosecution, that the Russian Prosecution are definitely of the opinion that relevant orders were issued from above, that is to say, issued by the people comprising the circle of the General Staff and the OKW. By questioning this witness, who was a regimental commander, I wanted to establish whether any effects extended downwards. This statement has confirmed me in the fact that this is not the case. Otherwise, I must. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Anyhow, Dr. Laternser, we have your position now, and the Tribunal will consider how far you may be allowed to proceed in future.
DR. LATERNSER: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Colonel Pokrovsky.
COL. POKROVSKY: It seems to me, Witness, that on 28 December 1945 you were interrogated by a representative of the Soviet Prosecution; is that not so?
WESTHOFF: Yes, sir.
COL. POKROVSKY: You gave correct and accurate testimony, did you not? ,
WESTHOFF: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: Would you please confirm some of your answers to the questions that you were asked then? I will help you to recollect the questions that were put to you.
WESTHOFF: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: In your section there were, as you stated, six different subdivisions or departments?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: You said that the first subdivision of the section-that is, I mean the section (Allgemeine Abteilung) which you headed from 1 March 1943 up to 31 March 1944-was dealing with prisoners of war. Is that correct?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: Now, the first subdivision of this section was concerned in general with the treatment of prisoners of war and, in particular with the questions of punishments and legal proceedings. This subdivision got the reports on the moods and reactions and was in constant touch with the Abteilung Abwehr (counterintelligence section). Is that correct?
WESTHOFF: With the Abwehr, yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: Now, in connection with the reply which you gave to that question, I would like you to state to the Tribunal right now, just how much or what did you know about the way the Soviet prisoners of war were treated, both in concentration camps and during transference from one camp to another.
WESTHOFF: As far as I know, until 1942, the Russian prisoners of war were treated on the basis of purely political considerations. After 1942 this was changed, and in 1943, as long as I was in the German High Command, prisoners of war were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, that is to say, in all points their treatment was adapted to that of the other prisoners of war. Their rations were the same as those of the others, and their employment and their treatment was in every detail in accordance with the treatment given prisoners of war of other powers, with certain exceptions.
COL. POKROVSKY: If I am not mistaken, the fourth subdivision of your department was especially concerned with the questions of feeding and clothing the prisoners of war. Is that correct?
WESTHOFF: The task of Group IV was matters of administration. It had to elaborate the instructions regarding rations, along with the Ministry of Food and Agriculture. It also had to deal with clothing.
COL. POKROVSKY: If I understand you correctly you have stated that until you took charge of the Prisoner of War Department the information which you received about the Soviet prisoners of war was to the effect that the Soviet prisoners of war were not treated according to international law. Is that correct?
WESTHOFF: No, I said that prisoners of war during the first years were treated on the basis of political considerations, which originated not from the OKW but from Hitler personally.
COL. POKROVSKY: Just what do you want to say about that?
WESTHOFF: I want to say that they were not treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention until 1942.
COL. POKROVSKY: In other words, not according to international law, right?
WESTHOFF: I cannot give you any more detailed information on that, since at that time I was still serving at the front and did not know details regarding these regulations.
COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. Tell me, was there in the OKW a special group or section which dealt exclusively with railway transportation of prisoners of war?
WESTHOFF: The OKW had attached to me a group which brought about the transport of prisoners of war. The transport itself was not a matter for the OKW but a matter for the individual camp commanders.
COL. POKROVSKY: Are you aware under what conditions the transport of the prisoners of war from one camp to another took place?
WESTHOFF: Transports of prisoners of war were ordered by the OKW. The execution of such transports of prisoners of war was a matter for the individual camp commandants who received their orders in this respect from the commanders of prisoners of war in the military administrative districts. The OKW had nothing to do with the actual transport.
COL. POKROVSKY: The question I asked is whether you are aware or were informed under what conditions the transport from one point to another took place. Do you know that thousands of prisoners died en route from cold and hunger? Do you know anything about it at all?
WESTHOFF: The transports, during which prisoners of war died, can at most be traced back to the earlier years when I was not yet in the High Command. As long as I was there, I had no reports on a large scale saying that people lost their lives in large numbers. The orders which the OKW gave regarding transports of prisoners of war were clear-cut and so given that the commanders of the camps concerned were responsible for these transports being carried out in an orderly manner. COL. POKROVSKY You have just confirmed that you were aware of the fact that en route prisoners of war died by thousands. Now I would like you to look at a document, Document Number 1201-PS, Exhibit Number USSR-292. It consists, Your Honors, of the minutes of the meeting of the war economy administration of the OKW. It has not been submitted to the Tribunal so far. It is dated 1000 hours, 19 February 1942. The minutes were taken of the meeting which took place at the Reich Chamber of Commerce. The report by Ministerial Director Dr. Mansfeld of the office of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor was heard. The three lines which particularly interest me are underlined with red pencil on the copy that is before you right now. Look at it, Witness. It states there: "The utilization of these Russians is exclusively a question of transportation. It is senseless to transport this manpower in open or unheated closed boxcars and then to unload corpses at the place of destination." Have you found this place?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: Have you heard anything about transports of this kind, wherein, in place of a train of living persons, corpses were unloaded? Have you heard anything about that before you took charge of your particular job in the OKW? Has anyone reported to you about these things?
WESTHOFF: I have heard nothing about these transports, as that did not come under the jurisdiction of the OKW, but came, as is clear from this document, within the sphere of the operational sectors. The jurisdiction of the OKW comprised mainly the German Reich and the border states, and only here did the OKW have authority over the prisoners of war-not in the operational sector, not in the rear army area. To this extent, it is a matter which did not come to the OKW at all. We received the prisoners of war from the Army, and then we were informed that we would receive so-and-so many prisoners of war, and we took them into our camps. What happened to those people in the operational territory was something we could not control in detail. Apart from that, this story also goes back to 1942-the time when I was still at the front.
COL. POKROVSKY: Look at the left side of the document at the top. There is a note there that this comes from the War Economy and Armament Office of the OKW does it not? Left, at the top, under the number K 32/510.
WESTHOFF: My office never had anything at all to do with the Armament Office.
COL. POKROVSKY: Very well. Does it not seem to you that this document confirms the fact that the OKW knew about these transports? No more questions, Mr. President, to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, as this document has not been put in before, and as it does not appear whether it has been translated, should you not read the first paragraph of it? It seems to contain material evidence.
COL. POKROVSKY: I will read it now. The first paragraph of the document, the way it appears in the Russian translation, reads like this: "File note. Subject: Report of the Ministerial Director, Dr. Mansfeld, of the Office of the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor, on General Questions Regarding the Allocation of Labor. "Time: 19 February 1942. 1000 hours; place: Reich Chamber of Economy; present: Dr. Grotius, Wi Ru Amt KVR. "The present difficulties in the question of the utilization of manpower would not have arisen had we decided in time to utilize the Russian prisoners of war on a larger scale." This is the first paragraph, Mr. President. Further down there are three lines which interest me in this document: "There were 3,900,000 Russians at our disposal, of which at present there are only 1,100,000 left. From November 1941 to January 1942 alone 500,000 Russians died." Have I read sufficiently, Mr. President? It seems to me that that is clear, and further reading of the document is superfluous.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.