dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, but you did not know he won it later on? Did you not know that he was put in prison?
VON PAPEN: No.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I thought I might have connected his name with you. Let me take somebody else. Take Dr. Ernst Eckstein, who had been a Reichstag Deputy, who was a well-known lawyer from Breslau. Did you not know that he was put in a concentration camp?
VON PAPEN: No, I did not know Dr. Eckstein, unfortunately
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Or Dr. Joachim, the Social Democrat lawyer from Berlin. Did you know he was put in a concentration camp?
VON PAPEN: No, I did not know him and I did not know this either.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, apart from individuals, did you not know that within a few months of Hitler's becoming Chancellor, hundreds, if not thousands, of Social Democrats and Communists went into a concentration camp?
VON PAPEN: Thousands? SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE Well, let us say hundreds, if you like. That is the figure Defendant Goering agreed to, so let us take, as the inside figure, hundreds of Social Democrats and Communists. Minister Severing put it at 1,500 of each; did you not know that?
VON PAPEN: I recall very exactly that the Defendant Goering came to the Cabinet one day after he had had the headquarters of the Communist Party, the Liebknecht Haus, taken over by the Police. He told the Cabinet that he had found a great number of documents which showed to what extent the Communists and other elements were trying to disturb public order and overthrow the new Government.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now will you answer my questions. Did you not know that hundreds of Social Democrats and Communists had been put in concentration camps?
VON PAPEN: No, I did not know there were hundreds. I knew that individual leaders had been thrown into concentration camps.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you mentioned, in giving your evidence to the Court, that the Amnesty Decree of 21 March was only the sort of thing that had happened before; that was a concretely one-sided amnesty, was it not? It was an amnesty to those who had fought in the national revolution, that is, an amnesty for Nazis. It was not an amnesty for Communists or Social Democrats or anyone who had been on the other side, was it?
VON PAPEN: Quite true, yes. It was an amnesty for the people who had worked against the formation of the Government.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you knew these things. Well, in your speech at Essen, let us just look at it again; your own account of what you have done. It is Page 54 of Document Book 11. You just told me that it was true what you said in that speech- this was in November-that you had tried to support with all your strength the work of the National Socialist movement and its leader and, if you will notice, you say later on that you were "selected by a gracious fate to put the hand of our Chancellor and Fuehrer into the hand of our beloved Field Marshal." By November 1933 you must have had a very good idea about the way that Hitler, your Chancellor and Fuehrer, was dealing with those who were politically opposed to him. Why were you-you told us your point of view-why were you saying how proud you were to have supported with all your strength the work of the National Socialist Party unless you agreed with it?
VON PAPEN: Hitler's and the Party's acts in violation of the coalition policy we opposed to the best of our power within the Cabinet. Certainly, we knew of these violations. I, personally, in many speeches which have not been submitted to the Court, referred to these violations, but as long as this coalition pact was in existence I had to hope that we would put our views through, and only for this reason did I therefore assure Hitler of my loyalty so that he, on his part, would be loyal to the others of us.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just give you the last words. Here you are appealing in a careful and special appeal to your Catholic fellow citizens, and you say: "Let us in this hour say to the Fuehrer and the new Germany that we believe in him and his work." Why did you talk like that when you must have known, in November 1933, that his program was to smash opposition, smash his political opponents, smash the trade unions and put himself in complete control of Germany? Why were you making speeches like that unless you believed and agreed with everything Hitler wanted to do?
VON PAPEN: I will tell you that very precisely. You know that in July of that year I concluded the Concordat, and that I received Hitler's assurance that he would make religious peace the basis of his policy. The more conservative elements could be brought to back the Government, so much the better it would be for the fulfillment of my program.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If that is your answer, we will pass to another point. I think you said today, or you said a few moments ago, that you began to realize what sort of team you were running with when you made the Marburg speech on 17 June. Now, please do not think I am being offensive...
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, may I request of the Tribunal that tomorrow and the day after tomorrow my client, Herr Von Neurath, be absent from the session so that he may prepare and complete his own defense?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, you have told the Tribunal a considerable amount about your Marburg speech. Was one of your associates a gentleman called Jung?
VON PAPEN: Yes, that is quite correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And-believe me I do not mean it in any offensive way-Herr Jung had helped you considerably with the composition of the Marburg speech, had he not?
VON PAPEN: Herr Jung quite frequently drafted outlines for speeches of mine, and the same applies to the Marburg speech.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. He was shot after the 30th of June, was he not?
VON PAPEN: Yes. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE He was a man for whom you had not only great affection, but for whose political views-I think you would call him a progressive conservative-you had great respect and agreement, is that not so?
VON PAPEN: Perfectly right, yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You have told us about Herr Von Bose. He was shot. Herr Von Tschirschsky was arrested by two different lots of people, was he not, after this occasion?
VON PAPEN: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Was Herr Von Saviguy arrested?
VON PAPEN: I cannot remember. I do not think so. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-;: Well, in all-it does not matter about the names-there were two members of your staff who were shot, and three were arrested, were they not?
VON PAPEN: One member of my staff was shot, and two were arrested. Herr Jung was not a member of my staff.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Herr Jung was not a member of your staff, but he was a close associate of yours. Now...
VON PAPEN: He was an associate who, as I said, quite often assisted me, when I was very busy, by drafting outlines for speeches, and with whom I exchanged conservative ideas.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, of course, it is common knowledge that General Von Schleicher and his wife were also shot, and-I think my recollection is right-that General Von BredoNv was shot too, was he not?
VON PAPEN: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you were placed under arrest, as you have told us, for 3 days, and I think your files were taken, were they not?
VON PAPEN: Yes. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE Did this performance shake your faith in the regime? ~
VON PAPEN: My faith in what? I beg your pardon.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did this performance shake your faith in the regime and in Hitler?
VON PAPEN: Quite. I explained to the Tribunal yesterday that by this action the Pact of 30 January had been broken.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you offered your resignation on 2 July, I think.
VON PAPEN: No, I offered it even earlier.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You had already offered it on 18 or 19 June, and you reaffirmed your offer on 2 July.
VON PAPEN: Quite right.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Quite right; my mistake. Now, do you tell the Tribunal that you reaffirmed your offer of resignation because you had lost your faith in the regime, or because of the insult to your own pride, because of your being arrested and having your files taken and your secretaries shot?
VON PAPEN: I offered my resignation, first, because of the unbearable affront to my own person and my staff and, secondly, because by this action the Pact of 30 January had been broken by Hitler and because any political co-operation with him in domestic matters had become impossible for me.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. Well, just look at Document Number D-714, will you. My Lord, this will be GB-497. This is a letter from you to Hitler written on 4 July, and you say: "Yesterday at 10 in the morning I had the honor of informing you orally of my attitude towards the events of the last days, after my term in police custody had been suspended on 2 July at 9 o'clock in the evening. At this time I pointed out to you that I could not possibly take my seat in the Cabinet until my honor and that of my officials has been restored. "On 30 June five of my co-workers were arrested; one of them was shot. My files have been confiscated, my office sealed, and my private secretary also arrested. This is still the position at the moment. "A procedure of this kind against the second highest official of the State could be justified only if he and his officials were guilty of complicity in the plot against Fuehrer and nation. "It is in the interest not only of protecting my personal honor but even more so of protecting the authority and decency of the State that either the guilt in this case be proved at once or honor restored." Then you say: "The events have become known abroad, in part in distorted form . . ." And that for that reason not a single hour should be lost. You appeal to his soldierly sense of honor, and you ask that the case should be put in the hands of the Prosecutor General, or a communiqué published stating: ". . . that the investigations had established no evidence of any complicity in the plot, in order that my honor and that of my officials thus be restored. "If you do not wish to undertake these steps, my remaining in the Cabinet any longer would be an impossibility." Now look at the rest of the letter. "I had placed my office at your disposal, Chancellor, as early as 18 and 19 June. I can ask for my dismissal with a much lighter heart today since the work jointly commenced by us on 30 January 1933 now appears to have been made secure against further revolts. At the same time I request to be relieved of my position as Commissioner for the Saar.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: "I assume that you will make your decision regarding the restoration of my honor, for which I am asking you, within the next few hours. "I remain loyally devoted to you and to your work for our Germany." Was it true that it lightened your heart that the work of Hitler now appeared to be secured against further revolts?
VON PAPEN: I did not understand the question.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Is it true what you say there, that it lightened your heart that the work of Hitler now appeared to be secured against further revolt?
VON PAPEN: Yes, I was under the impression that there had been a revolution which he had suppressed. This letter was written one day after I was released from custody, and I had the feeling there had been a revolution and now it was settled.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you know that General Von Schleicher and his wife had been killed?
VON PAPEN: I do not think I knew that at this moment.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You just knew that Herr Von Bose had been shot?
VON PAPEN: Yes, that is mentioned in the letter.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And you knew there was not the slightest reason on earth for General Von Schleicher, Jung, and Bose being shot, did you not?
VON PAPEN: No, I did not know the reason. As far as I remember . . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, you knew that there was no reason, did you not?
VON PAPEN: No, to my question regarding the reason Hitler replied that Herr Von Bose had been involved in a matter of giving information to the foreign press.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. So that we may take it that you were speaking with your head and your heart, and with complete confidence and sincerity when you said: "I remain loyally devoted to you and to your work for our Germany," on 4 July 1934, is that right?
VON PAPEN: Yes, because I had to hope that his further work would not lead to any disadvantages for Germany, even though he might separate himself from me as far as matters of domestic policy were concerned.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You need not go on with the letters. You may take it that I shall deal with them in time, so do not read the others in advance. As a result of that, you saw Hitler on that day, did you not? Would you mind just answering my questions. I assure you I will take you through these letters. You saw Hitler on that day?
VON PAPEN: I saw him earlier. SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE But you also saw him after.
VON PAPEN: I saw him the day before. In the letter it says . . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, but you saw him after this letter, and did you not agree with Hitler to remain Vice Chancellor until September, and that you would then take employment under the Foreign Office?
VON PAPEN: I do not believe so, no.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, if you do not believe that, look at the next letter which is D-715, which becomes Exhibit GB-498. This is a letter of 10 July, and it begins: "Our agreement of 4 July"-that is the date of the last letter- "to the effect that I am to retain my position as Vice Chancellor until September and then be employed in the Foreign Service was based between us on the following condition: The immediate and complete restoration of my authority and honor, which will enable me to remain in the service of the Reich, in whatever capacity." Now, do you tell the Tribunal that on 10 July you did not know that General Von Schleicher and his wife had been killed and General Von Bredow had been killed and that Jung as well as Bose had been murdered? You say you did not know on 10 July?
VON PAPEN: I am not denying by any means that I knew that, but as I have already told the Tribunal I demanded that an investigation regarding all these matters be conducted so that we might know the precise reasons for them. It was stated to the public that Schleicher was shot in self-defense, so that all these matters at the time were not at all clear.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But it is correct, of course, as you write here, that you had agreed with Hitler to carry on as Vice Chancellor until September and then to be employed in the Foreign Service on this condition, is that right?
VON PAPEN: No, that is not correct, for I have already explained . . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is your letter, Defendant, it is your own letter.
VON PAPEN: Yes, but this letter was written because Hitler had promised me a clarification, an investigation which would enable me, after my honor had been restored and all these crimes cleared up, to remain in the service of the Reich. But that was never done.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Von Bose and Jung had been working with you in close co-operation and if anyone knew whether they were innocent men or not it was you. Why did you, with that knowledge, agree with Hitler to carry on as Vice Chancellor and then to enter the Foreign Service?
VON PAPEN: I have stated that I had resigned. The sentence dealing with my possibly remaining in office is only a supposition. De facto I had resigned and de facto I did not exercise any governmental activity from 4 July on.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just look at the next words in this letter: "To this end I submitted to you on 5 July my proposal for a statement to be issued officially, explaining why the arrest of a number of officials of my staff had taken place and how Von Bose had lost his life, and averring the nonparticipation of all the members of my staff in the SA revolt. This statement requested by me was approved and published by you only in part, inasmuch as the release and innocence of Herr Von Tschirschsky, Herr Von Savigny, and of my private secretary, Stotzingen, were announced." You had put before Hitler your own version and asked him to pass it and he would not pass it. He would not clear the people who were working closely with you and yet you had agreed with him. You had agreed with him to continue as Vice Chancellor and to go into the Foreign Service. You see what I am putting to you? I am putting to you quite clearly that all you cared about was your own personal position, your dignity being restored. You were prepared to serve these murderers so long as your own dignity was put right.
VON PAPEN: Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot give better proof for my intentions to separate myself from the regime than lies in the fact of my actual resignation. If everything had been clarified, if the fact that my employees and officials had been innocent when they were arrested and murdered had been made clear, then perhaps it might have been possible for me to remain in the service of the Reich, but not as Vice Chancellor, from which position I had resigned. But you can see from this letter that Hitler made no attempt to give such a declaration.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And as a result of his making no such attempts you wrote an even more fulsome statement of your admiration for his actions. Look at Document Number D-716, which will become Exhibit GB-499. "Most honored Reich Chancellor: "I reflected a long time on our conversation of yesterday, and the statements made to me, in particular what you told me about your intentions regarding your Reichstag speech, have occupied me constantly in view of the enormous importance of the speech and its special effect on Germany's position in the sphere of foreign politics as well. I therefore feel impelled, in fact I feel it my duty, to let you know my opinion, as I have frequently done on previous occasions. "You explained to me yesterday that you intend publicly to accept responsibility for everything that happened in connection with the crushing of the SA revolt. Allow me to tell you how manly and humanly great I consider this intention. The crushing of the revolt and your courageous and firm personal intervention have met with nothing but recognition throughout the entire world. "What are, however, at the moment a burden on Germany are solely those events that took place outside the bounds of your own initiative and without any immediate connection with the revolt, such as the examples you yourself gave me. This has been given expression particularly in the British and American press." Then, leaving out three paragraphs, you say: "Allow me to assure you once again that my person or my position, except for the restoration of my personal honor, do not matter at all and are at issue only insofar as the events in the Vice Chancellery on 30 June are being regarded by the public as the consequence of a breach between you and me." Then, after some more of the same you finish up: "With unchanged admiration and loyalty..." Did it not come to this, Defendant, that so long as you could get your dignity cleared it did not matter whether your collaborators were shot or the Government of which you had been a member had adopted murder as an instrument of policy?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: These things did not matter to you so long as you kept your own dignity and the chance of a future job in the Foreign Service.
VON PAPEN: No.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, why did you write stuff like that to the head of a gang of murderers who had murdered your collaborators? Why did you write to him: "The crushing of the revolt, your courageous and firm personal intervention have met with nothing but recognition throughout the entire world." Why did you write it?
VON PAPEN: Because at that time it was my opinion that there actually had been a revolution and that Hitler had crushed it. That on the other hand numerous people had been murdered, members of my own office staff, that was something about which Hitler was to ascertain the truth. When he told me that he himself would assume responsibility, I considered this an excellent act on his part, though not, as it was actually done afterwards by Hitler, when he stated to the Reichstag that these events were proper. I understood it to mean that if he himself assumed responsibility for these events he would clarify them to the world and not state to the world in a law without any investigation that they were proper.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Would you tell the Tribunal that on 12 July you thought there was any doubt or any possibility that your friend Jung could be guilty of treason against the Reich or of a plot against Hitler? Did you believe that for an instant?
VON PAPEN: Herr Hitler explained to me at that time that the shooting of Bose was first of all only a...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, I asked first of all about yourself. I asked, did you believe for a moment that Jung had been guilty of treason against the Reich or of a plot against Hitler?
VON PAPEN: No, certainly not.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, you knew very well that Hitler was worried from the point of view of foreign opinion as to publicity being given to the effect of a break between you and him, did you not? You knew that the support, after the blood purge, of an ex-Chancellor of the German Reich and, as you have told us, a Catholic of old family with great position amongst the German population- the support of someone of that kind would be of great value to him after this blood purge, which had caused foreign opinion to be very disturbed, did you not? You knew that?
VON PAPEN: No, it seems clear from this letter that I constantly asked Herr Hitler to ascertain why and for what reasons action had been taken in this manner against my associates and me. He was to explain this to the world.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Herr Von Papen, if you, as an ax-Chancellor of the Reich and, as you said yourself, one of the leading Catholic laymen of Germany, an ex-officer of the Imperial Army, had said at that time "I am not going to be associated with murder, cold-blooded murder as an instrument of policy," you might at some risk to yourself have brought down the whole of this rotten regime, might you not?
VON PAPEN: That is possible, but had I said it publicly, then quite probably I would have disappeared somewhere just as my associates did. And, apart from that, the world knew from my resignation that I did not identify myself with this affair.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just let us see what you were writing. If you look at Document Number D-717, which will become Exhibit GB-500, that emphasizes the importance that Hitler was attaching to your adherence. If you will look at the second paragraph-I will read it, it is quite short. You say: "I hope you have received my letter of yesterday and that you received it in the spirit in which it was intended. "Today I ask you, for personal reasons, to excuse me from participating in the session of the Reichstag. Yesterday you were, indeed, of the opinion that my staying away might create the impression that there was disagreement between us. But this impression can surely not arise if in your statements you refer to the case of the Vice Chancellery in the way in which you promised me you would. "During all these days I have behaved with the greatest possible reserve towards the outside world and have shown myself as little as possible, and you will surely understand my not wanting to appear in public again until every shadow has been removed from me. "I have also asked the Party Chairman to excuse my absence." Who is the Party Chairman? Is that the Chairman of the Nazi Party?
VON PAPEN: No, I believe the Chairman of the Party was Dr. Frick.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It was the Government Party, was it?
VON PAPEN: Yes. The letter shows that I requested Hitler to give an account of the actions undertaken against me and my associates before the Reichstag.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You wanted a statement saying that you had never swerved from your loyalty towards him; that is what you wanted, was it not? VON PAPEN: No, I wanted...