dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
ROSENBERG: Yes. I was informed about that in the beginning by returning personalities, that it was not due to local authorities but to parts of the population. I knew the attitude in the East from before and could well imagine that this was true. Secondly, I have stated that I had been informed that along with executions of various other nests of resistance and centers of sabotage in various cities, a large number of Jews were shot by the police. And then I have treated the case of Sluzk here.
MR. DODD: I think you will agree that in the Ukraine your man Koch was doing all kinds of terrible things, and now I don't understand that you dispute that Lohse and Kube were helping to eliminate or liquidate the Jews, and that Brautigam, an important member of your staff, and that Leibbrandt, another important member of your staff, were informed of the program. So that five people at least under your administration were engaged in this kind of conduct, and not small people at that.
ROSENBERG: I should like to point out that a decree by the Reich Commissioner for the Ostland is at hand, which in agreement . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Will you answer the question first? Do you agree that these five people were engaged in exterminating Jews?
ROSENBERG: Yes. They knew about a certain number of liquidations of Jews. That I admit, and they have told me so, or if they did not, I have heard it from other sources. I only want to state one thing: That according to the general law of the Reich, the Reich Commissioner for the Ostland issued a decree according to which Jewry, which of course was hostile to us, should be concentrated in certain Jewish quarters of the cities. And until the end, until 1943-1944, I have heard that in these cities such work was still carried out in these Jewish ghettos to a very large extent. And may I supplement this with still another case which came to my knowledge, namely that a district commissioner...
MR. DODD: I don't want you to point out anything else. You have answered the question, and you have explained your answer. I don't ask you further...
ROSENBERG: What I wanted to add explains another part of my answer in a very concrete case, namely, a district commissioner in the Ukraine had been accused before the court of having committed blackmail in a Jewish community and having sent furs, clothes, et cetera to Germany. He was brought before court, he was sentenced to death, and was shot.
MR. DODD: Well, that is very interesting, but I don't think it is a necessary explanation of that answer at all. And I would ask that you try to confine these answers. I would like to get through here in a few minutes. You are also, of course, the man who wrote the letter, as you told the Tribunal yesterday, suggesting the out-of-hand execution of 100 Jews in France, although you said you thought that was what? a little bad judgment, or not quite just, or something of the kind? Is that right?
ROSENBERG: I made my statement about that yesterday.
MR. DODD: I know you have, and I would like to talk about it for a minute today. Is that what you said about it, that it was not right, and that it was not just? "Yes" or "no," didn't you say that to the Tribunal yesterday?
ROSENBERG: You have to quote literally, word for word, if you want me to answer "yes" or "no."
MR. DODD: I will ask you again. Didn't you say yesterday before this Tribunal that your suggestion in that letter, in Document 001-PS, was wrong and was not just? Now, that is pretty simple and you can answer it.
ROSENBERG: I stated that it was humanly unjust.
MR. DODD: It was murder, isn't that what it was, a plan for murder? "Yes" or "no"?
ROSENBERG: No. But I considered the shooting of hostages, which was publicly made known by the Armed Forces, as an obviously generally accepted fact under the exceptional conditions of war. These shootings of hostages were published in the press. Therefore, I had to assume that according to international law and certain traditions of warfare this was an accepted act of reprisal Therefore, I cannot admit...
MR. DODD: Well, were you talking then as the benign philosopher or as a soldier? When you wrote this letter, 001-PS, in what capacity were you writing it, as a benign, philosophical minister on ideology and culture, or were you a member of the Armed Forces?
ROSENBERG: As can be seen from the document, I have spoken about the fact that certain sabotage and murder of German soldiers was being committed here, so that good future relations, which I also aimed for, between Germany and France would be poisoned forever. For that reason this letter was written, although I regret it from the human point of view.
MR. DODD: It comes a little late, don't you think? The witness Hoess you were in the courtroom when he testified, Hoess, Hoess?
ROSENBERG: Yes, I heard him.
MR. DODD: You heard that terrible story of 21/2 to 3 million murders which he told from the witness stand, very largely of Jewish people?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
MR. DODD: Although it was not brought out here, you can take it from me as being so. If you care to dispute it, you may, and we will establish it later. You know that he was a reader of your book and of your speeches, this man Hoess?
ROSENBERG: I do not know whether he read my books. Anti-Jewish books have existed for the last 2,000 years.
MR. DODD: Now, you offered to resign in October 1944 from your position as Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories?
ROSENBERG: October 1944.
MR. DODD: You did not have very much to resign from on that date, did you? The Germans were practically out of Russia, isn't that a fact? On October 12, 1944, the German Army was practically out of Russia. It was on the retreat, isn't that so?
ROSENBERG: Yes. It was' the question of my further tasks for the political and psychological treatment of several millions of Eastern workers in Germany; it was furthermore a question of refugee s who came from the Eastern territories and from the Ukraine to Germany, and of the settlement of economic problems, and above all I still had the hope even at that hour that a military change also might still occur in the East.
MR. DODD: And everybody, pretty nearly everybody who was informed at all in Germany knew that the war was lost in October of 1944, isn't that so? You knew that the war was lost in October of 1944.
ROSENBERG: No, I did not know that.
MR. DODD: You did not know that?
ROSENBERG: No, I did not know that.
MR. DODD: I will accept that answer. That is all. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, do you wish to reexamine? [There was no response.] General Rudenko, have you got some additional questions you want to ask?
GEN. RUDENKO: I have some questions to ask in connection with the defendant's activities in the Eastern territories.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, General.
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Rosenberg, at what time did you begin, personally and directly, to participate in preparations for an attack on the Soviet Union?
ROSENBERG: Not at all.
GEN. RUDENKO: Was your appointment of 20 April 1941 to the post of the Fuehrer's Commissioner in central control for all questions relating to the Eastern European territories not directly connected with Germany's attack on the Soviet Union?
ROSENBERG: That was no longer a planning in which I took part, but it was the consequence of a decision which had already been made and about which my advice had not been asked. I was notified that a decision had been made and military orders had been given. Therefore I have nothing... Well, if I have to answer the question as much as possible with "yes" or "no," I have just answered this, on the basis of the wording, with "no."
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not deny the fact that this appointment took place in April 1941?
ROSENBERG: That is evident, that I received a task.
GEN. RUDENKO: With this nomination Hitler gave you very wide powers. You collaborated with the highest authorities of the Reich, received information from them and summoned the Reich authorities to meetings. In particular you collaborated with Goering, with the Minister for Economy, and with Keitel. Do you confirm this? Please reply briefly.
ROSENBERG: There are, again, three questions. As to the first question, whether I received wide powers, plenipotentiary powers, I had not received plenipotentiary powers at all. The answer would be "no." To the second question, whether I had conferences, the answer is "yes." As a matter of course, I conferred with the supreme Reich authorities who were concerned with the East, as was my duty in connection with my task.
GEN. RUDENKO: Please reply briefly to the following question: Immediately after your appointment of 20 April 1941, did you hold a conference with the Chief of the OKW?
ROSENBERG: Yes, I visited Field Marshal Keitel.
GEN. RUDENKO: Did you have a conversation with Brauchitsch and Raeder in connection with your appointment, regarding the solution of the Eastern problems?
ROSENBERG: According to my recollection I did not speak to Brauchitsch and I also have no recollection of having had any conversation at that time with Raeder.
GEN. RUDENKO: Did you have a conference with the Defendant Funk, who appointed Dr. Schlotterer as his permanent representative?
ROSENBERG: The then Reich Minister Funk, of course, was shortly informed of this task given me and he named Dr. Schlotterer for purposes of liaison.
GEN. RUDENKO: You had several conversations with General Thomas, State Secretary Korner, State Secretary Backe, and Ministerial Director Riecke, regarding the economic exploitation of the Eastern territories?
ROSENBERG: I do not believe that I spoke to Thomas, and I met the other gentlemen gradually, one by one. Later I took over Riecke as liaison man to the Economic Staff East in the Ministry. I must have met Backe also later on, as is natural in the course of time. I do not know at all whether I ever met General Thomas personally, maybe I met him in passing.
GEN. RUDENKO: Then I shall have to produce documents where you yourself speak about it. You were negotiating with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and. as a result, the Defendant Ribbentrop appointed Grosskopf to act as permanent liaison officer with your organization, and placed on the other hand Dr. Brautigam in charge of the political section. Is that corrects
ROSENBERG: Yes, that is correct, because the Foreign Minister was, of course, informed briefly and appointed the then Consul General Grosskopf as ambassador...
GEN. RUDENKO: You received competent representatives of the Ministry of Propaganda such as: Fritzsche, Schmidt, Glasmeier, and others?
ROSENBERG: Yes, that may have been so. I met most of these gentlemen for the first time then, and it goes without saying that I had to inform myself about the task.
GEN. RUDENKO: You negotiated with the Chief of Staff of the SA and requested him to place at your disposal the most experienced of the SA leaders.
ROSENBERG: Of course I also spoke to the Chief of Staff of the SA about possible capable assistants in the event of an occupation of the Eastern territories.
GEN. RUDENKO: In this connection, therefore, you will not deny that a coordinating center did actually exist for preparing measures of attack against the Soviet Union.
ROSENBERG: Not in that form, because all the tasks connected with the conflict with the Soviet Union were divided up from a military point of view. They were assigned to Goering in the field of economic planning; they were, as became evident later on, clearly defined with the Police. I had been given a political liaison office in order to discuss the political problems of the East, and to give the different offices ideas about the eventual political administration and the direction of this policy. In the main I did that in the sense which you find in my speech of 20 June
GEN. RUDENKO: Very welt One and a half months before the treacherous attack by Germany on the Soviet Union, you drafted a directive for all Reich commissioners in the Occupied Eastern Territories. You do not deny that?
ROSENBERG: I already mentioned that yesterday. In the line of duty, some provisional drafts were worked out by myself and my assistants. These drafts which we have here, or which have been shown to me up to now, were not sent out in this form.
GEN. RUDENKO: I shall return to this question later. In your report which you submitted to Hitler on 28 June 1941, regarding the preliminary work on questions connected with the Eastern territories, you stated that you had had a talk with Admiral Canaris, during which you asked Canaris, in the interests of counterintelligence work, to choose certain persons who, while working on counterintelligence, would also be able to do political work. Do you confirm this statement?
ROSENBERG: No' that is not correct. But I heard that Admiral Canaris had organized a certain group of Ukrainians, I believe, and other nationals for some sabotage or other work. He visited me once and I asked him not to meddle with the political work, that is with the political preparatory work, and he assured me he would not.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not deny your meeting Canaris?
ROSENBERG: The meeting-no.
GEN. RUDENKO: And the conversation in which you asked him, in the interests of Intelligence, to select certain people to help you. Do you deny that?
ROSENBERG: No-yes, I deny that. However, I do not deny the fact that, of course, if Canaris had an interesting political report it would be proper for him to inform me about it on occasion. I had no counterintelligence organization or espionage organization. During these years I never...
GEN. RUDENKO: We are going to submit this document to you. [Turning to the President.] Mr. President, perhaps we can declare recess now, because I still have a series of questions to ask.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn the hearing of this case at 4 o'clock in order to hear supplementary applications for witnesses and documents. The Tribunal hope, therefore, that we may be able to conclude the case of the Defendant Rosenberg before that I mean, to conclude the case of the Defendant Rosenberg, including his only other witness, or any other witness.
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Rosenberg, you replied to me that the conversation with Admiral Canaris did not take place.
ROSENBERG: On the contrary, I said that such a conference with Admiral Canaris did take place.
GEN. RUDENKO: Then maybe this was wrongly translated.
ROSENBERG: Probably.
GEN. RUDENKO: I asked you whether you requested Canaris in the course of your conversation, in the interests of the counterintelligence service, to choose men who, while working as counterintelligence agents, would be able to do simultaneously political work. Do you remember my question?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Was that the main subject of your conversation?
ROSENBERG: That is not correct. Admiral Canaris had . . .
GEN. RUDENKO: That is not correct? Well, let us not go into that tin detail. In order to speed up the interrogation, I will show you a document, and I will read this passage into the record. Show this document to the defendant. [Turning to the Tribunal.] I mean, gentlemen of the Tribunal, Document 1039-PS, on Page 2. The part is underlined. I will read this passage. [Turning to the defendant.] This is your report on the preliminary work concerning the organization of the territory of Eastern Europe I read: "A conference took place with Admiral Canaris to the effect that, under the existing confidential circumstances, my office could in no way negotiate with any representatives of the peoples of Eastern Europe. I asked him to do this insofar as counterespionage work required it and then to name persons to me who, over and above counterespionage service, might be regarded as political personalities, in order to determine their possible utilization later. Admiral Canaris said that of course he would take into consideration my request not to recognize any political groups among the emigrants, and that he intended to act in line with my statements."
ROSENBERG: That is in accord with what I said.
THE PRESIDENT: General, I think you are going a little too fast.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant.] I ask you, do you confirm this quotation?
ROSENBERG: Yes, in the German wording but not in the Russian translation. I understand Russian also and can, therefore, determine that the translation is not entirely correct; for it says here that I, under the existing confidential circumstances, naturally could not negotiate with other countries for eventual collaboration in a civilian administration. That is the first point. And point two is that, since Admiral Canaris had to do with various groups of Ukrainians, Russians, and other people, I was asking him-apart from counterintelligence, that is-not to do espionage work for me or ask me to do espionage work but that he should point out to me people of other nationalities whom I could use later-under given conditions- in civilian administration. That was the meaning; and furthermore, at the end it is quite correct that he agreed not to carry on any political work himself.
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Rosenberg, this absolutely follows the Russian text. What you just told us now means exactly the same in Russian.
ROSENBERG: According to the German translated into Russian it must have been that. I can recognize only the German text, not the Russian translation, which is not in accord with this meaning. You interpret this text as though I were trying to carry on espionage work. I asked Admiral Canaris, since I could not carry on political negotiations with representatives of the Eastern people, simply to tell me from his personal knowledge, apart from his official capacity, what people of the Eastern regions, under certain circumstances, might later work in the civilian administration for me. That is the meaning. The translation is, therefore, not entirely correct.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well; but you confirm the German text?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: It means you were connected with counterespionage?
ROSENBERG: No, that is not correct. I only received Admiral Canaris and told him that, in his official capacity in which he had to function, he should not deal with political negotiations and plans, because I was now being given that task.
GEN. RUDENKO: You heard the admonition of the President of the Tribunal about answering briefly, and I beg you to do so.
ROSENBERG: I would answer more briefly if the questions were put to me factually.
GEN. RUDENKO: I will put to you several questions concerning the aims of the war against the Soviet Union. Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued war against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of the Soviet Union, the extermination of her people, the enslavement of the peoples of the Soviet Union, and the dismemberment of the Soviet Union? Answer briefly. Do you admit this, or not?
ROSENBERG: Five questions are being put to me again, and if . . .
GEN. RUDENKO: I ask you please answer briefly: Do you admit the aims of the aggression as I have put them to you? You will be able to give your explanation later.
THE PRESIDENT: You can answer that question "yes" or "no."
ROSENBERG: I must answer "no" to all four questions.
GEN. RUDENKO: You deny it. All right. Let us turn to a new document in this connection. I mean the Document 2718-PS, which is in the minutes of the morning session of 10 December 1945. That is your memorandum dated 2 May 1941. [The document was handed to the defendant.] Wilt you please follow? This document reads as follows: "1) The war can be continued only if all the Armed Forces are fed with stocks from Russia in the third year of the war. "2) There is no doubt that as a result many millions of people will die of starvation if we take out of this country everything that we need." I ask you now, did you write that?
ROSENBERG: I neither wrote that nor did I participate in this session, and I cannot determine whether any one of my collaborators knew anything at all about this meeting. It says here, "Senior officers only, two copies, one for the files (Ia) and the second General Limbert." Therefore, only two people in the Armed Forces knew about this.
GEN. RUDENKO: Do not go into that in detail, Defendant. You do not know about this?
ROSENBERG: This document has been submitted twice already.
GEN. RUDENKO: Let us go on to the next one.
THE PRESIDENT: The question was whether you knew of this document.
ROSENBERG: No.
GEN. RUDENKO: We come to the next document, which determines the aims of the war. This is your instruction to the Reich Commissioner for the Baltic countries and for Bielorussia. You stated the following-I mean now the Document 1029-PS; the part which I will read is marked in the margin: "The aim of a Reich Commissioner for Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Bielorussia must be to strive for the creation of a German protectorate, with a view to transforming these regions later into a part of Greater Germany by the Germanization of racially admissible elements, the colonization of Germanic peoples, and the resettlement of undesirable elements." Do you remember these instructions? Please reply first.
ROSENBERG: Yes, I am familiar with this document, I already remarked yesterday that at the beginning all sorts of drafts were made in my office which were not approved by me. The corrections were made by me.
GEN. RUDENKO: I asked you very clearly, do you know these instructions or not?
ROSENBERG: But I still heard the wrong translation. Nothing is mentioned about "destruction," but "incorporation," and the Russian translation again said "destruction." If it is translated that way, then my question appears in the Russian language as an approval of destruction; and that is a wrong translation which is being made here, which I can follow only because I speak Russian.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, you can be heard perfectly well without shouting.
ROSENBERG: I beg your pardon.
GEN. RUDENKO: You are only correcting an error in the translation. Now as regards the rest-Germanization and colonization-is that right? Does that sound right in German? Answer me. Is that right or not?
ROSENBERG: Even in that way it is not translated quite correctly. Here it says "colonization of German peoples," and now you are translating "Germanization and colonization." These are two substantives which again give correspondingly different sense, and I would like to add that these drafts made by a collaborator of mine were not actually issued, and that they in no way constitute instructions.
GEN. RUDENKO: I do not ask you, was it issued or not; but I ask you, was there such a draft? Will you deny that?
ROSENBERG: I am not disputing that such a draft was submitted to my office.