dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. M: HERZOG: Defendant Sauckel, I offered in evidence this morning Document Number F-810, which is an account of the conference which you held on 15 and 16 July 1944 at Wartburg with the heads of the regional labor offices. Do you remember?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I remember.
M. HERZOG: Do you remember whether during this conference the question was raised as to the discipline to be imposed upon the workers?
SAUCKEL: It is possible that during this conference-or conferences-this question was discussed. I cannot remember exactly; I did not participate in all the sessions.
M. HERZOG: Do you know Ministerialrat Dr. Sturm?
SAUCKEL: Ministerialrat Dr. Sturm is not personally known to me.
M. HERZOG: Do you remember the statements made at the conference of 15 and 16 July 1944 by Dr. Sturm?
SAUCKEL: I cannot remember any particular statements by Dr. Sturm.
M. HERZOG: I shall hand you once more the minutes of that meeting. It is Document Number F-810 which was presented this morning under Exhibit Number RF-1507. Will you please look at Page 25 of the German text. It is also Page 25 of the French version. There you see-I read the first line: "Sturm gave the following report from his sector on work discipline." I shall pass to the next page, where I read, "We are working with the Gestapo..."
THE PRESIDENT: Where is this?
M. HERZOG: Document F-810, Mr. President; it is a document which is marked...
THE PRESIDENT: I know it is 806, but I thought you told us that they followed on.
M. HERZOG: 810, Sir, 810. The; PRESIDENT: I have got that.
M. HERZOG: Page 25.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
M. HERZOG: With your permission, I will begin again. "Sturm gave the following report from his sector on work discipline . . ." And on the following page: "We are working with the Gestapo and the concentration camps, and we are certainly on the right track." Did you make any observations when that statement was made?
SAUCKEL: I did not hear that statement myself. He gave a specialized report on questions of labor legislation, as it says at the beginning. I am seeing the record for the first time in my life. There were several parallel meetings at the same time. I did not hear it myself, but it stands to reason that some sort of ruling regarding penalties had to be made, as is done in all labor legislation. Perhaps I may read to you from the same document, the beginning: "Measures regulating the employment of labor and wages are only possible on the basis of a healthy working morale. Regulations of a disciplinary and penal character for securing such morale require unified handling, the details of which will be dealt with at a subsequent meeting of experts on penal law." That is, of course, not one of my offices.
M. HERZOG: I asked you what you thought of Dr. Sturm's statement.
SAUCKEL: May I read in connection with Dr. Sturm's statement, at the end of the first page...
M. HERZOG: Will you please answer my question first? What do you think of this statement?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered.
M. HERZOG: Please answer my question. What do you think of this statement?
SAUCKEL: I did not know of this statement, as Sturm, I believe, came from some other department. I do not know whether he belonged to the Ministry of Labor itself, or to some other department; that I cannot say. I did not hear these statements...
THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Do you not see the light in front of you?
M. HERZOG: Do you not remember that an agreement was reached between you and the Chief of the Police and SS to hand over to the Gestapo those workers who were guilty of leaving their work?
SAUCKEL: Well, there had to be an authority in Germany which dealt with workers who left their places of work without being entitled to do so. It could not have been done by any authority other than the Police; there was no other way. In connection with this document I beg to be allowed to read some more from Page 1: "Apart from that, the number of penalties imposed by the authorities on German workers, such as reprimands, fines, concentration camps, and legal penalties, was relatively surprisingly small. In cases dealt with by the public prosecutor the penalties inflicted amounted on an average to 0.1 to 0.2 for every 1,000 workers."
M. HERZOG: What has that to do with the question which I asked you about your relations with the Gestapo and the concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: But there was no other authority except the police who could make an arrest if it were necessary and legally justified by court rulings.
M. HERZOG: You admit, then, that it was with your agreement that the Gestapo proceeded to arrest workmen who had broken what you call their contract of work, and send them to concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody which was prescribed. The penalties were decreed in accordance with certain regulations. I made no other agreement.
M. HERZOG: I submit in evidence Document Number 2200-PS,; which becomes Exhibit Number RF-1519. It is a service memorandum of the Gestapo addressed to the district police officials of the Cologne and Aachen districts. It refers to the struggle against breaches of contract on the part of foreign workers. Mr. President, it Is the fourth document from the end in my document book. I read from it: "The considerable number of refractory foreign workers... is dangerous to the security of the Reich.... There is always danger of actual sabotage in such cases, . . . the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police has reached an agreement with the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor that all charges of absenteeism against foreign workers shall be dealt with by the Gestapo. "...the district police authorities are expected to examine anything bearing on this matter. They are authorized by me to give warnings to absentees by order of the Gestapo State Police of lice, Cologne, and to order corrective custody up to 3 days for all cases of minor importance. The instructions concerning the attitude to be taken toward the individual groups of foreign workers are to be noted.... "In more serious cases of absenteeism the district police authorities will submit the files concerning the cases to the competent Gestapo office (Cologne, Aachen, or Bonn) for decision. The Gestapo will examine the matter and order the necessary measures-detention, sending to corrective labor camps, or concentration camps." [Turning to the defendant.] Do you still deny that it was with your agreement that refractory workers were first handed over to the Gestapo, and then sent to concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: I did not deny it, but as stated in the first paragraph, this only happened if public order was disturbed by punishable offenses, that is in serious cases, or when there were breaches of working contracts. There was nobody except the police to undertake the search for such people, and I consider the procedure to be perfectly correct.
M. HERZOG: You think that it is a correct manner of procedure to hand over foreign workers to the Gestapo and to concentration camps? I note your answer.
SAUCKEL: Only in the case of serious offenses. It says "in serious cases" in the document. That was the demand imposed on me.
M. HERZOG: At what period did you learn about the atrocities which were committed in concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: I can say with a good conscience that I gained knowledge here of the cruelties which were committed in the concentration camps; after the collapse of the Reich.
M. HERZOG: Do you think that it was the same with all the Hitlerite chiefs?
SAUCKEL: I cannot speak for the others. I myself did, not know of such measures, which I abhor and which I only learned of here.
M. HERZOG: Do you think that the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, for example, was aware of the atrocities which were committed in the concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: I cannot say whether the Reichsfuehrer SS knew of them, whether he himself instigated them. During the whole of my career I hardly ever spoke to the Reichsfuehrer SS because our personal relations were rather strained.
M. HERZOG: During the interrogation by your counsel yesterday you declared that you once visited the concentration camp of Buchenwald; did you not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, in 1937 or 1938. I cannot tell you that from memory now.
M. HERZOG: You declared you made this visit in the company of an Italian commission, did you not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, that is correct.
M. HERZOG: Do you know that there is in existence an album of official photographs of the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
SAUCKEL: I do not know that.
M. HERZOG: I offer that album in evidence to the Tribunal under Exhibit Number RF-1520. It bears the Document Number D-565. It is a document of the British Delegation. [Turning to the defendant.] Do you recognize yourself in these photographs?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I recognize myself in this picture.
M. HERZOG: With whom are you there?
SAUCKEL: That is the Reichsfuehrer SS.
M. HERZOG: Himmler?
SAUCKEL: Himmler, yes.
M. HERZOG: Thank you. And you contend that you, a Gauleiter and Reichsstatthalter of Thuringia, visited the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in the company of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and- I call your attention to this-in the company of the commander of the camp, without knowledge of what was happening inside the camp?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you when this picture was taken or whether it was taken in the camp itself. I was once outside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS-there was another large site there-but I was never inside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I was there only once with an Italian commission. This picture does not show that there was an inspection. Here you see some troops lined up...
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will decide about that. I offer in evidence under Exhibit Number RF-1521 the certificate establishing the origin of this album. In October of 1945 you were interrogated on the expulsion of Jews from industry. You said this: "I never had anything to do with it. I had nothing to do with the question of the eviction of Jews from industry. I had no influence in this matter. It was an enigma to me." Can you confirm this declaration? 30 dial
SAUCKEL: That is perfectly correct. I did not say the eviction of the Jews from industry was a secret to me; I said that, to the best of my recollection, I had nothing to do with it.
M. HERZOG: Your counsel gave you a document yesterday, Document Number L-61, which you thought you had to contest.
SAUCKEL: Yes.
M. HERZOG: The point that you raised against this document was that it was dated 1942, and that it dealt with questions prior to your appointment. Did I understand you correctly yesterday?
SAUCKEL: The enclosures to the document deal with questions that had already been started before I was appointed.
M. HERZOG: I offer in evidence Document Number L-156, which becomes Exhibit Number RF-1522. It is a letter written under the authority of the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor, which is you. It is dated 26 March 1943. It is addressed to the chiefs of the regional labor offices, and it deals with the question of the eviction of Jews. It begins thus: "In agreement with me and the Reich Minister for Armaments. and Munitions, the Reichsfuehrer SS, for reasons of state security, removed from their place of work at the end of February such Jews as were not living in camps and who were working as free workers. "They have been formed into working units or assembled for deportation. In order not to endanger the efficacy of this measure, I have avoided issuing any notification beforehand, and I have notified only those regional labor offices in whose districts free Jewish manpower was employed in large numbers. "So as to have a general view of the effect of those measures on the manpower position, I ask you to let me have, as from 31 March 1943, returns showing how many Jews were removed from their work, and how many it has been found necessary to replace by other workers. "When giving the numbers of the factories and of the Jews employed by them, one should take into account the situation which existed before the evacuation. The enclosed form should be used for making reports, et cetera." Do you still say that you had no part in the matter of the eviction of Jews and their replacement by foreign workers?
SAUCKEL: Mere again I must state emphatically that this letter was never put before me. It has no signature, and here again it comes from a subdivision in the Reich Ministry of Labor at 96 Saarlandstrasse. Some official dealt with it there. I myself have absolutely no recollection of having ever had knowledge of this letter, I did not write it, it does not come from my office, it has been written "by order," and the signature is not mine.
M. HERZOG: Will you please look on the left in the corner. It says: "The Delegate for the Four Year Plan, the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor." Is not that you? You talk of a subordinate. Are you trying to throw the responsibility on one of your subordinates?
SAUCKEL: No, I do not want to do that. I merely want to say that the letterhead belongs to some office, but I have never known anything about the letter. This is the first time in my life that I have seen it, and I myself did not have it written. I can say that under oath.
M. HERZOG: With this letter is an application form for replacement for the expelled Jews. Who else but you could have anything to do with this, you who were the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor?
SAUCKEL: Yes, my department-I told my counsel yesterday that my department, of course, had to furnish replacements if workers were taken away from a concern, either by being called up for service or for some other measure. I did not always know the details.
M. HERZOG: You are not answering my question, the fact that this letter...
SAUCKEL: Yes, I have answered your question properly.
M. HERZOG: The fact that this letter contains an application relating to the replacement of workers, is that not proof that it comes from your department, you being the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor?
SAUCKEL: Such a request could not come from my department. The evacuation of Jews was entirely the responsibility of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I had only troubles because of such measures, as it was very difficult to replace workers. I had no interest in it.
M. HERZOG: In short, you deny that you ever proposed special working conditions for Jews?
SAUCKEL: That is just what I am denying. I had nothing to do with it. It was not my task.
M. HERZOG: Would you please refer once more to Document Number F-810, which I of leered under Exhibit Number RF-1507? We will hand it to you if you have not got it. Please look at Page 16, under the heading: "Gauleiter Sauckel." I quote...
SAUCKEL: I have not the document at hand-oh yes, I think I have it.
M. HERZOG: It was passed to you about 2 minutes ago. If you have not got it, it will be handed to you again.
SAUCKEL: Will you please give me the number again?
M. HERZOG: Document F-810, but I do not think it is marked on the photostat you have. Have you that document?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
M. HERZOG: Under the heading "Gauleiter Sauckel," I read-it is on Page 16 of the document: "Sauckel objected very emphatically when it was said that the inmates of concentration camps and the Hungarian Jews constituted the best manpower on constructional work. This is not true to fact, because they produce on an average 65 to 70 percent of the work of a normal worker; never 100 percent. Besides, it is unworthy to put the German worker and the German moral conception of work in the same category as this pack of traitors. To an inmate of a concentration camp and to a Jew, work is not a mark of nobility. Things cannot be permitted to reach the point where inmates of concentration camps and Jews become articles in demand. It is absolutely essential that all concentration camp inmates and Jews working on building sites be kept apart from the remainder of the workers, including foreigners. "Gauleiter Sauckel ended by pointing out that as a matter of fact he did not object to the employment of Jews and concentration camp inmates, but only to such exaggerations as mentioned above." I would ask you, Sauckel, you who yesterday described your own life as a workman, what you meant when you said: "To an inmate of a concentration camp and to a Jew work is not a mark of nobility."
SAUCKEL: I want to say most emphatically that this paragraph is a very condensed and free rendering, and not a shorthand report. I raised an objection because I assumed that inmates of concentration camps would be traitors. My only object was that these people should not be taken to the same places of work as the other workers, the Jews either. But I did not employ them; that was the business of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I was speaking at a conference of leaders and in the interests of workers with a clean record and the other foreign workers. I objected to their being put to work together.
M. HERZOG: I ask you this question again. What did you mean when you said: "To an inmate of a concentration camp and to a Jew work is not a mark of nobility?"
SAUCKEL: By that I meant that the work of men who had been found guilty of offenses should not be compared with the work of free workers with a clean record. There is a difference if I employ prisoners in custody or if I employ free workers, and I wanted to see the two categories separated.
M. HERZOG: So that Jews were prisoners in custody, were they not?
SAUCKEL: In this case the Jews were prisoners of the Reichsfuehrer SS. Actually, I regret the expression.
M. HERZOG: You dispute, therefore, that this phrase is an expression of the hostility which you showed to Jews for instance?
SAUCKEL: At that time I was, of course, against these Jews, but I was not concerned with their employment. I was against these workers, whose employment was the concern of the Reichsfuehrer SS, being put with the other workers.
M. HERZOG: Did you ever conduct any propaganda against the Jews?
SAUCKEL: I conducted propaganda against the Jews with regard to their holding positions in the Reich which I considered should have been occupied by Germans.
M. HERZOG: I will submit to you an article which you wrote in June 1944, a time when I think in your Germany there were not very many Jews still occupying important posts. This article appeared in a newspaper, Die Ppicht which you published in the Gau of Thuringia. It is Document Number 857 which I offer to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number RF-1523. I shall read extracts from this article. [The document was handed to the defendant.] First extract from Page 1, Column 1, the last paragraph but one: "The old and finest virtues of the sailors, airmen, and soldiers of Great Britain can no longer stop the Jewish plague of corruption which is making such rapid ravages in the body of their country." Then, on Page 2, Column 2, the last paragraph but one: "There is no example in the history of the world to show that anything of lasting value has been created in the course of centuries by the Jews and their foolish followers who were bound to them and corrupted by their customs and their women." I ask you, Defendant Sauckel, what did you mean by the "Jewish plague of corruption"?
SAUCKEL: I meant that it was the outward sign of disintegration within the nations.
M. HERZOG: I ask you again my question. What do you mean by the "Jewish plague of corruption"?
SAUCKEL: It was my opinion that disintegration had set in among the nations owing to certain Jewish circles. That was my view.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will draw its own conclusions. Mr. President, I have no further questions.
MAJOR GENERAL G. A. ALEXANDROV (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): I would like to make a general summary of your activities in your function of Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor. Tell me how many foreign workers were employed in German economy and industry at the end of the war?
SAUCKEL: As far as I can tell you without documents, not counting prisoners of war, there were about 5 million foreign workers in Germany at the end of the war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You already quoted that number during your direct interrogation by our counsel. I believe that number applies not to the moment of the capitulation of Germany but to the date of 24 July 1942. I shall quote somewhat different data on that subject and will use your own documents. You were nominated Plenipotentiary General on 21 March 1942. On 27 July 1942,-that is to say, 3 months later-you submitted to Hitler and Goering your first report. In this report you stated that from 1 April to 24 July 1942 the requested mobilization quota of 1,600,000 persons was even surpassed by you. Do you confirm this figure?
SAUCKEL: I quoted that figure, and as far as I can remember that did not include only foreigners but also German workers.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In the final part of your report you state that the total number of the population of the occupied territories evacuated to Germany, up to 24 July 1942, numbered 5,124,000 persons. Is that number exact? Do you confirm it?
SAUCKEL: Yes, but I believe that figure at the time included prisoners of war who had been employed in industry. Then I must say in this connection that in the case of all neutral allied, and western countries there was a continuous exchange, because these workers worked either 6 months, 9 months, or 1 year in Germany, and at the end of the period agreed on they returned to their own countries. That is why this figure may have been correct. Toward the end of the year, however, they could not have increased very much because this continuous exchange has to be taken into consideration.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the fact remains that, according to your figures, the population evacuated to Germany numbered 5,124,000 persons up to 24 July 1942; is that not so?
SAUCKEL: If it says so in the document, then it may be true. It is possible, or rather it is probable, that this takes into account the prisoners of war employed. I cannot say that without any records.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will show you later another document referring to this matter. On 1 December 1942, you compiled a summarized report on the utilization of manpower up to 30 November 1942. In this summary you quote a figure referring to the number of workers assigned to German war industries from 1 April to 30 November 1942, and these workers number 2,749,652. On Page 8 of your report you state that by 30 November 1942, in the territory of the Reich, 7 million workers were employed. Do you confirm these figures?
SAUCKEL: I cannot confirm the figures without records. Again, I assume that French and other prisoners of war were once more included.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the figure 7 million employed in German industry-foreign workers employed, even if you include the prisoners of war-is that figure exact? Will you now say how many workers were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the year 1943? Tell me that figure.
SAUCKEL: The number of foreign workers brought to Germany during the year of 1943 may have amounted to 11/2 or 2 million. Various programs had been made in that connection which were being continually changed.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am now interested to know approximately how many workers were brought to Germany in 1943. You need not give an exact figure. Approximately.
SAUCKEL: I have already said from 1.5 to 2 million. I cannot be more exact.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. Do you remember what task was assigned to you for the year 1944?
SAUCKEL: In 1944 a total of 4 million, including Germans, was demanded. But of these 4 million only 3 million were supplied, and of these approximately 2,100,000 were Germans and 900,000 foreigners.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now can you give us at least a general summary of your activities? How many persons were brought to Germany from the occupied territories during the war, and how many were employed in agriculture and industry at the end of the war?