dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
HERR PELCKMANN: You said previously that you had reported to the various agencies and named three of them, I believe. Please describe how Nebe reacted. What was Breithaupt's attitude? What did Kaltenbrunner and Muller say? What was Pohl's attitude, and how did the Reich Physician Grawitz react?
MORGEN: First I reported to my immediate superior, SS Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, as chief of the RKPA. Nebe was an extremely taciturn man, but I could see that his hair stood on end when I made my report. He was absolutely silent. Then he said that I must immediately report this matter to Kaltenbrunner. The chief of the Hauptamt SS Courts, Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt, also became very much excited. He said that he would immediately go to see Himmler and report this to him and try to have a personal interview with Himmler arranged for me. The Reich Physician also did not know what to say. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, however, took another attitude. Previously, or about the same time, I had had the commander of the Concentration Camp Hertogenbosch arrested, who h,-.d caused the death of 10 women through punitive measures. Wh6n I reported this to Pohl he said these were trifles. He said, "What do the lives of 10 women matter in view of the thousands of German women dying every night in the air raids?"
HERR PELCKMANN: Please be more brief on the others.
MORGEN: After I had already reported to Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner about the actual corruption crimes, the deadly crimes which I discovered about 6 months later, a conversation took place in the presence of Nebe, Kaltenbrunner, and Muller. This discussion was extraordinarily one-sided. Kaltenbrunner and Nebe were absolutely silent while Muller, white with rage, was infuriated with me and did not give me a chance to get in a word. When I looked at him calmly, he suddenly jumped up and rushed out of the room and left me alone, while the other two gentlemen turned away from me. In the afternoon I went to see Muller again and personally told him_ my point of view once again, but Muller was still absolutely against it. HERR PELCKMANN-,, Very well, did you ...
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of this conversation with Kaltenbrunner?
MORGEN: That was immediately after the charge was raised against Grabner. I assume in July or August 1944.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you report these things to other circles of the SS?
MORGEN: No. I wanted to inform and win over those people, who really had something to say, to my point of view. Nothing else counted. Besides that, I was bound by Basic Order Number 1, concerning secrecy on State affairs, and could only approach the chiefs of the main offices personally. Any mistake I would have made in contacting other offices would have had serious results for we and would have given my enemies a pretext for protracting the investigation.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, he said he did not report it. Surely that is sufficient. We don't want to know more about it. He did not report. We are not trying the witness.
HERR PELCKMANN: I beg your pardon, I believe that is a mistake, if I understood correctly. He said he did report.
THE PRESIDENT: He said he made no other report, as I understood it, except this that he has spoken of.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, will you comment on that?
MORGEN: That is true. Aside from the chief of the Main Office of the SS, no one else was informed.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you not consider it your duty to inform the public or to clear your conscience somehow by raising the cry "murder"?
MORGEN: I would have needed access to the technical means for doing this, that is to the press and the radio, which I did not have. If I had blurted that out at every street comer, no one would have believed me, because this system was beyond human imagination. I would have been locked up as insane.
HERR PELCKMANN: The Camp Dachau was here described as a pure extermination camp by the Prosecution and by certain witnesses. Is that true?
MORGEN: I believe that from my investigation from May to July 1944 1 know the Concentration Camp Dachau rather well. I must say that I had the opposite impression. The Concentration Camp Dachau was always considered a very good camp, the prisoners considered it a rest camp, and I actually did get that impression.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you see the internal arrangements, the hospital, and so forth?
MORGEN: I examined all these facilities carefully, and I must say the hospital was in excellent order. I went through all the wards. There was no noticeable overcrowding, and remarkably enough the number of medical instruments which were at the service of the prisoners was astonishing. Amongst the prisoners themselves were leading medical specialists.
HERR PELCKMANN: Very well. You want to say that conditions were good. But you thereby contradict the testimony of the witness, Dr. Blaha, which was made the subject of evidence here. Do you know his testimony?
MORGEN: I have read the testimony of Dr. Blaha in the press, and here I have had the opportunity to look through the record of the Trial. I must say I am amazed at this testimony. I am of the opinion that Blaha, from his own knowledge, cannot make such statements. It is not true that a prisoner in a concentration camp can move about freely and have access to the different sections and installations.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks he can say that he disagrees with the evidence of Blaha, but not that Blaha was not telling the truth. He disagrees, he said it. We think you might get on. How much more time do you anticipate that you'll take?
HERR PELCKMANN: Five minutes, Your Lordship. You were just about to say, Witness, why you did not agree with the testimony of Blaha?
MORGEN: I said ...
THE PRESIDENT: He has given his own evidence about the matter, and he says he is in contradiction with Blaha. We don't want further details about it.
HERR PELCKMANN: Mr. President, if I understood correctly, the witness is to give more credible testimony. If he does not say that on such and such points of the testimony of Blaha he has such and such an objection, the Prosecution can say he did not comment on it. That is my endeavor. Please instruct me, Your Lordship, if I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT: He has given his account on the camp at Dachau. The Tribunal has before it the evidence and testimony of Blaha. The Tribunal can see for itself if the evidence is inconsistent. That is sufficient.
HERR PELCKMANN: I only attempted to give the reasons, but if the Court does not wish to go into it further, I will withdraw the question. [Turning to the witness.] Will you briefly sum up? I would rather go on to the last question which is of importance regarding your credibility. Did you give the testimony in the way you have given it here once before?
MORGEN: Yes. At the time of the collapse I was chief justice in Breslau. When I came to Germany after some time, I heard the CIC was looking for me on account of my knowledge about concentration camps. I reported to the CIC headquarters Mannheim-Seckenheim, 7th Army, and said I was ready to help clear up these crimes. I gave my testimony on the same lines which I attempted to follow today. I went to the CIC headquarters, Oberursel, and after I had given my testimony, I was locked up in a bunker in Dachau, together with the accused people whom I had previously arrested myself.
HERR PELCKMANN: Very well. Do you know the pamphlet SS-Dachau which I submitted to the Tribunal yesterday and which 8 Aug. 46 , I should like to designate as Exhibit SS-4? Do you know this document? Answer "yes" or "no."
MORGEN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: On Page 46, there is the testimony of a Mrs. E. H. Was this testimony made before you as the investigating judge?
MORGEN: Yes, this was a Mrs. Eleanora Hodis, a prisoner in Auschwitz; I questioned her under oath.
HERR PELCKMANN: And did you examine * the article and make certain this was the evidence which the woman gave? Yes or no.
MORGEN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: When was that?
MORGEN: In the fall of 1944.
HERR PELCKMANN: The testimony is against Hoess?
MORGEN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were proceedings then instituted against Hoess?
MORGEN: Yes. The testimony was submitted to Hoess in the original.
HERR PELCKMANN: The testimony concerns conditions in Auschwitz; is that true?
MORGEN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: It is not true that it concerns the situation in Dachau?
MORGEN: No.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess. [A recess was taken.]
DR. RUDOLF MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo): Mr. President, I should like to be permitted to put three brief questions to this witness, concerning nonparticipation and ignorance on the part of the Gestapo as far as the mass extermination is concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
DR. MERKEL: Witness, if I understood you correctly, the crimes of Kriminalkommissar Wirth in Lublin were discovered because of a report of the Security Police in Lublin.
MORGEN: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: Did the Security Police in Lublin participate in these crimes in any way?
MORGEN: No. As I saw it that was not the case.
DR. MERKEL: The witness Best stated that the camps at Treblinka. and Maidanek were under the supervision of the Security 'Police. Is that correct?
MORGEN: I know nothing about that. Wirth explained that he had four extermination camps. I believe the name Treblinka was mentioned in that connection.
DR. MERKEL: According to your conviction, this camp as well was under Wirth?
MORGEN: I assumed that.
DR. MERKEL: Did you wish to execute an order of the SS Court to arrest Eichmann?
MORGEN: I asked the SS Court at Berlin to investigate Eichmann on the basis of my report. The SS Court in Berlin thereupon submitted to the chief of the Reich Security Main Office, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, in his capacity as highest judge, a warrant to arrest Eichmann. Dr. Bachmann reported to me that on the submission of this matter rather dramatic incidents took place. Kaltenbrunner immediately called in Muller, and now the judge was told that an arrest was in no event to be considered, for Eichmann was carrying out a special secret task of utmost importance entrusted to him by the Fuehrer.
DR. MERKEL: When was that?
MORGEN: That was in the middle of 1944.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, may I be permitted to put a few questions, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: Witness, you spoke about orders of the Reich Security Main Office. From which offices of the Reich Security Main Office did these orders come?
MORGEN: Do you mean the orders for the mass extermination?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
MORGEN: I stated that the SS jurisdiction ...
DR. GAWLIK: Answer the question briefly, please. Which offices issued these orders?
MORGEN: I said that the investigating judge could not establish the origin of such orders to my knowledge.
DR. GAWLIK: You spoke of the orders of the Reich Security Main Office, did you not?
MORGEN: I said that the accused Koch and Grabner, in answering for their killings, referred to, orders of the Reich Security Main Office and maintained that these orders had to be destroyed as soon as they were received. That was purely an assertion and therefore this statement had to be investigated.
DR. GAWLIK: Did you ascertain-that the Offices III, VI, and VII were in any way participating in these measures?
MORGEN: I have already testified that Wirths undertaking directly. . .
DR. GAWLIK: Can you answer this question with a "yes" or "no"?
MORGEN: I could not determine that.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Prosecution very carefully considers the question of cross-examining this witness. We do not accept his evidence as to Buchenwald, Dachau and as to conditions in concentration camps generally. We feel, however, the Tribunal has been shown such an overwhelming amount of evidence, including films and exhibits of the consistent pattern of cruelties in the concentration camps, of the smelling chimneys of the crematoria, and of the persons who carried out these actions, that we consider that any further discussion of these matters should be by way of comment and that it would not be right to take up the time of the Tribunal by confronting this witness with the details of that evidence which is so fully in the Tribunal's mind.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire. Is that your case?
HERR PELCKMANN: Yes. [The witness left the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution wants to cross-examine the witness Sievers. We will call for Wolfram Sievers. [The witness Sievers took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
WOLFRAM SIEVERS (Witness): Wolfram' Sievers.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
MAJOR JONES: You are Wolfram Sievers, and from 1935 on you were Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Heritage Society), were you not?
SIEVERS: I was the Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe.
MAJOR JONES: You recollect that on 27 June you gave evidence 'before the Commissioner appointed by this Tribunal?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: I am referring to the transcript of your evidence before the Commission. Do you recollect that Dr. Pelckmann, the counsel for the SS, announced that he was calling you to show that this Ahnenerbe did not know of the biological experiments of the group by Dr. Rascher, performed on concentration camp inmates?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: And do you remember that when Dr. Pelckmann asked you: "Did you have any possibility of having an insight into the circumstances relating to or the planning of the methods or the carrying out of these scientific research works of the military scientific department," you answered "No?"
SIEVERS: I recall that.
MAJOR JONES: And when I cross-examined you upon your testimony do you recall telling the Commissioner that Himmler and Rascher were very close friends and you did not know exactly what went on? Do you remember that?
SIEVERS: I said that I was informed about these matters only in general but not in particular.
MAJOR JONES: In my final question to you in cross-examination I asked you: "How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with Rascher's and other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science?" And to that question you gave this answer: "I cannot say because I had no insight into these matters." Do you remember that?
SIEVERS: Yes, indeed.
MAJOR JONES: Well now, I want to see whether or not you did have insight into these matters. Did you ever hear of Professor Hirt's skeleton collection?
SIEVERS: That is in connection with the anatomy at the University of Strasbourg...?
MAJOR JONES: I asked you, did you hear about it?
SIEVERS: Yes, indeed, I did hear of it.
MAJOR JONES: You played a very active part in the creation of that collection of skeletons, did you not?
SIEVERS: I did not understand the end of the question.
MAJOR JONES: You played an active part in the collection of these skeletons?
SIEVERS: No.
MAJOR JONES: I want you to look first at the Document Number 116. It is an insertion into the Tribunal's document book at Page 1901. It follows Page 19 in Your Lordship's document book. It win be Exhibit GB-573. [Turning to the witness.] Now we shall be able to test your ignorance of this collection. This is a letter from Brandt to the Reich Security Main Office, dated 6 November 1942. Brandt was Himmler's adjutant, was he not?
SIEVERS: He was his personal secretary.
MAJOR JONES: Now, this letter: "Subject: Organization of a skeleton collection in the Anatomical Institute of Strasbourg. "The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that everything necessary for the research work of the director of the Anatomical Institute Strasbourg, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, who is at the same time chief of a branch of the Institute for Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes in the Amt Ahnenerbe, should be placed at his disposal. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, I therefore request you to make the organization of the planned skeleton collection possible. SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers will contact you for details." Now, that Sievers is you, is it not?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: Were you contacted for details?
SIEVERS: This refers to the organization of the Anatomical Institute of the University of Strasbourg which had recently been reopened by us, that is, to the reorganization of the so-called Anatomical Museum, an institution which exists in all universities.
MAJOR JONES: This was just a piece of academic research, was it?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: Where were you going to get the skeletons from?
SIEVERS: Particulars were to be handled by Professor Hirt ...
MAJOR JONES: Now just answer my question, Witness, because you know perfectly well the answer to it. Where were you going to get those skeletons from?
SIEVERS: They were to be put at our disposal by Auschwitz.
MAJOR JONES: Now, I want you to look at a letter in furtherance of Brandt's communication which you sent to Brandt, containing suggestions as to where those skeletons should come from. It is Document Number 085, which will be GB-574. It is at Page 11 of the document book, My Lord. It is at Page 14 and 15 of the German document book. Now, that is a letter headed Das Ahnenerbe, dated 9 February 1942, marked "secret." It is addressed to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant. It is your letter, Witness, is it not, it is your signature at the bottom of it?
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: I will read it out. "Dear Comrade Brandt: "I am sorry I was not able to send to you before Professor Dr. Hirt's report, which you requested in your letter of 29 December 1941, because Professor Hirt was taken seriously ill.17 Then there follow details of his illness. "Due to this, Professor Hirt was merely able to write a preliminary report which, however, I should like to submit to you. The report concerns: "L His research in the field of microscopic living organs; the discovery of a new method of examination and the construction of a new research microscope. 'T. His proposal for securing skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars." Then there is your signature and you forwarded that letter and Professor Hirt's report and his suggestions, and this is Hirt's report: "Subject: Securing of skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars for the purpose of scientific research at the Reich University of Strasbourg. "We have large collections of skulls of almost all races and peoples at our disposal. Of the Jewish race, however, only ,very few specimens of skulls are available, with the result that it is impossible to arrive at precise conclusions from examination. The war in the East now presents us with the opportunity to overcome this deficiency. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish-Bolshevik commissars, who represent the prototype of the repulsive, but characteristic, subhuman, we have the chance now to obtain scientific material. "The best practical method for obtaining and collecting this skull material could be followed by directing the Wehrmacht to turn over alive all captured Jewish-Bolshevik commissars to the Feldpolizei. The Feldpolizei, in turn, would be given special directives to inform a certain office at regular intervals of the numbers and places of detention of these captured Jews, and to give them close attention and care until a special delegate arrives.
MAJOR JONES: This special delegate, who will be in charge of securing-the material (a junior physician of the Wehrmacht or the Feldpolizei, or a student of medicine equipped with a motor car and driver), will be required to take a previously stipulated series of photographs, make anthropological measurements, and, in addition, determine as far as possible descent, date of birth, and other personal data. "Following the subsequently induced death of the Jew,, whose head should not be damaged, the physician will sever the head from the body and will forward it to its proper point of destination in a hermetically sealed tin can especially made for this purpose and filled with a conserving fluid. Having arrived at the laboratory, the comparison tests and anatomical research on the skull, as well as determination of the race membership and of pathological features of the skull form, the form and size of the brain, et cetera, can be undertaken by photos, measurements, and other data supplied on the head and the skull itself." That was the report which you forwarded to Brandt?
SIEVERS: Yes, that was the report of Professor Hirt.
MAJOR JONES: How did the collection of these skeletons from the living proceed?
SIEVERS: I cannot give you the exact details. In earlier interrogations I pointed out that Professor Hirt would have to be asked himself about this matter.
MAJOR JONES: Now, Witness, I want to give you another opportunity of telling the truth. Are you saying to this Tribunal that you do not know what happened with regard to the progress of that collection of skulls and skeletons?
SIEVERS: That may be seen from the report itself. Persons were then assigned for this task by order of Himmler.
MAJOR JONES: Who put the actions into operation; did you have anything to do with it, with the collection of the bodies?
SIEVERS: No, nothing at all, and I do not know either in what way this whole matter developed, since the direct correspondence and the conferences which had taken place previously between Himmler and Hirt are things I know nothing about., Hirt was an old ...
MAJOR JONES: Well now, Witness, I have given you an opportunity of protecting yourself from perjury. You have not taken it. Look at the next Document Number 086, which is on Page 13 of the document book. It will be GB-575. That is another of your letters. It is another letter of yours, again to Himmler's adjutant. It is marked "secret." It is dated 2 November 1942. Page 13 of your document book, My Lord. "Dear comrade Brandt: As you know, the Reichsfuehrer SS has directed that SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything needed for his research work. For certain anthropological researches-I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer SS on them-150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather Jews, are required, which are to be supplied by the Concentration Camp Auschwitz. The only thing that remains to be done is for the Reich Security Main Office to receive an official directive from the Reichsfuehrer SS. This however, can also be given by you, acting for the Reichsfuehrer SS." You had already been discussing this with Himmler, Witness, had you not? You were his agent for collecting these living men to turn them into skeletons?
SIEVERS: That does not apply in this form. The entire matter covered such a long period of time that I am not able to reconstruct the entire connection on the spur of the moment, as I was concerned only with particulars.
MAJOR JONES: I am sure you are not in a hurry to reconstruct them, as I am sure you could do. For the second time in regard to this matter you have taken an oath, and I want you to give some indication that you know what an oath means. You are a man of education. Look at the next document, Number 089, to refresh your memory as to how distant you were from this matter. It becomes GB-576.
THE PRESIDENT: It came through as 089. Do you mean 089?
MAJOR JONES: 089, Page 16 of Your Lordship's document book. [Turning to the witness.] That is a letter from Brandt to the RSHA, dated 6 November 1942, marked "Secret." It is for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann of the RSHA. Reference is "Establishment of a collection of skeletons at the Anatomical Institute at Strasbourg."
SIEVERS: Yes.
MAJOR JONES: "The Reichsfuehrer SS has issued a directive to the effect that SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, who is the director of the Anatomical Institute at Strasbourg and the head of a department of the Institute for Scientific Research for Specific Military Purposes in the Office Ahnenerbe, be furnished with everything he needs for his research work. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, therefore, I ask you to be of assistance in bringing about the planned collection, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers will get in touch with you to discuss the details." Do you still say you know nothing of the details of this matter?