dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then the next sentence says: "Apparently the bodies were burned and the ashes put into urns and sent to the camp." And then there is arrangement about the burial. Then you say that that raised great difficulties. A sentence or two later you say that matters of that sort were always passed to higher authority. They went to the Party Chancellery, and then there was hell to pay. The cremation of prisoners of war was forbidden. And then later on, when you say that you raised the question of it being contrary to the Convention, you say: "Whenever I addressed the Officers' corps and said, 'Gentlemen, we only act according to the Convention,' someone from higher authority from the Party Chancellery, arrived the following day and said, 'Gentlemen, the Convention is a scrap of paper which doesn't interest us."' Is that correct as to the general procedure?
WESTHOFF: It is not entirely correct. The OKW took the point of view that the Convention should be observed; but the prisoner-of-war affairs as such in Germany were only apparently in the hands of the OKW. The people who really formed the decisions on prisoner-of-war affairs were the Party and economic offices. Thus, for example, my office had to submit to the deputy of the Party Chancellery every order that was issued, and the Party Chancellery decided how this order was to be issued, and not the OKW at all.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I don't want to go into it in detail. You had an interview with Bormann's deputy, Friedrich, at the Party Chancellery. And then in the next long paragraph beginning, "The Air Force P.W. camps were under G.A.F. administration..." We have gone into that, if Your Lordship agrees, in detail-the Air Force side of it. I did not intend to put that. Then I want you to come to where it says, in the paragraph after you talked about the question of handing over prisoner-of-war camps to Himmler's organization-you see it reads, "We were told all men who get away are to be shot'" It may be the beginning of the next paragraph in my English version. Do you see it after a long paragraph about Air Force camps?
WESTHOFF: What page please?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The trouble is the pages are different, but it begins, "We were told all men who get away are to be shot..." It is the third last paragraph of the document. If you start from the end of the document, you will see a paragraph: "I cannot remember..." One before it: "We arranged with the 'Feldmarschall' . . ." It is the one before that: "We were told all men who get away are to be shot..." Have you got it? "The 'Feldmarschall' prohibited anything concerning this to be put into writing. Nothing at all. Only the camp was to be informed in order to put them in the picture. I discussed the matter with Graevenitz once more. I can't tell you the exact details anymore. We contacted the Gestapo regarding the return of the bodies. We had to have them back. Then Von Graevenitz left for the front." Now it is the next bit I want you to look at carefully. "I then said to Oberstleutnant Krafft, 'I won't do it like that; I am going to cover myself at all costs so that we are not involved in it afterwards. It is true the "Feldmarschall" has forbidden it to be put in writing, but I want to have it in writing. It must be signed by the Fuehrer.' " Now that is what you said to Krafft-comparatively unimportant.
WESTHOFF: That is not entirely correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Tell us what you would like altered in it.
WESTHOFF: I wanted it in writing, signed by the Field Marshal, and for this purpose I issued a memorandum describing this discussion. And thus I had the Field Marshal's signature with my office for future events so that I would have something in writing to prove it actually true.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, just look at the next sentence. I think that entirely agrees with what you have said: "Contrary to Feldmarschall Keitel's orders-I pretended that I had not understood properly-I worked the thing out on paper. I said to Oberstleutnant Krafft, 'I want to have the word "shoot" included so that Keitel can see it in writing. He may adopt a different attitude then.' "When I got the thing back, he had written the following in the margin: 'I did not definitely say "shoot"; I said, "Hand over to the police or hand over to the Gestapo." "'
WESTHOFF: That is not entirely correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What change would you like to make in that, General?
WESTHOFF: I stated that clearly in my sworn statement, that the Field Marshal had written on the margin, "I did not say 'shoot,' but 'turn over to the Gestapo."'
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Is that the same as is in this statement? It says he wrote in the margin, " 'I did not definitely say 'shoot.' I said, 'hand over to the police or hand over to the Gestapo."'
WESTHOFF: Well, that is right.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I wanted this to be quite clear, General. The draft order or note of information that you had put up to the Field Marshal contained the word "shoot"?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now there is only one other bit. You go on to say: "We arranged with the 'Feldmarschall' to have the matter submitted to the Fuehrer. We had the feeling that there was something not quite in order." And then you say that you had to approach the police authorities on a slightly lower level, and about 10 lines down you say this: "In the end, I could not get where I wanted with this affair. So I went to Berlin myself-it was the only time I ever saw Kaltenbrunner-and I said to Kaltenbrunner, 'This matter is still outstanding. It should be submitted to the Fuehrer. I can't carry on like this. A decision must be made some time. But apart from that, I am of the opinion that the whole affair should be dropped. The whole thing is madness. It has already let us into so much unpleasantness and is so monstrous that I am still of the opinion that this affair should either be stopped in some way or the Fuehrer be dissuaded from continuing it any further.' " Is that generally, again, in substance, a correct version of what you said to the Defendant Kaltenbrunner?
WESTHOFF: This does not directly concern this matter, however, but rather an order that was to be issued by Wagner in connection with it and to be submitted to the Fuehrer in two ways, one via the chief of the OKW and the other via Himmler. This order had been submitted to Keitel in draft form which then went to the Gestapo. The Gestapo read this draft, and then the matter was carried no further. I was never able to find out why this was so, and for this reason I myself duly addressed Kaltenbrunner about this matter.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Was this the order in its final form, that escaped prisoners of war should be handed over to the Gestapo or the police?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. So this, General Westhoff, if I may have your attention, was really dealing with the future, was it? This was dealing with what was to be done in the future?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I don't think one need go into it in details again, unless the Tribunal want. My Lord, the rest of the statement is only a general account of the attitude of the :British prisoners of war, and I have no complaint about it at all. My Lord, there is one problem that has arisen which perhaps the Tribunal would now consider the convenient time. My friend, Colonel Pokrovsky, has certain quite different matters with regard to the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war which he wanted to raise with this witness, and perhaps the Tribunal would consider it a convenient. time to do it.
THE PRESIDENT: It probably would be more convenient if Dr. Nelte put his questions to this witness, if he has any, first, before Colonel Pokrovsky.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should respectfully agree to clear up this topic first.
THE PRESIDENT: Unless Colonel Pokrovsky's questions might relate to the Defendant Keitel? SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE They do relate, of course, to the position of the OKW with these prisoners of war, but they have nothing to do with Sagan.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, have you any questions you want to put to this witness?
DR. NELTE: Witness, what was just read to you was called a "statement" and was presented here. Have you ever given this statement in complete form orally or in writing?
WESTHOFF: I was interrogated on different occasions, and this interrogatory which has been presented to me is a summation of my testimony. Of course, I found errors here and there because it has been summarized, and the questions have been omitted.
DR. NELTE: In other words, this is a summation of the answers you gave to questions at various interrogations?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Was this summation ever submitted to you?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. NELTE: I had the impression that the passages read to you here just now were on occasion very long and that you actually answered always only the latter part of these passages. I should 10 April like to ask you whether after this interrogation in London you were not again interrogated?
WESTHOFF: I was interrogated here in Nuremberg.
DR. NELTE: By Colonel Williams?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: What did Colonel Williams say to you at the conclusion of this interrogation? What did he request of you?
WESTHOFF: At the conclusion of the interrogation, Colonel Williams asked me to describe briefly the basic central point of my testimony and to sum it up in a sworn statement.
DR. NELTE: Did you swear to this statement before Colonel Williams?
WESTHOFF: Yes, I swore to it.
DR. NELTE: Now, I should like first of all to go through with you the interrogation that you had with Colonel Williams, and which is to be found in Document RF-1450. I am having this document handed over to you.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by Document 1450?
DR. NELTE: RF-1450 is contained in the document book, in my document book as Number 5.
THE PRESIDENT: But you mean RF-1450, do you?
DR. NELTE: Yes, RF. This document is entitled, "Summary of Interrogation of General Adolf Westhoff by Colonel Curtis L. Williams, on 2 November 1945."
THE PRESIDENT: Just one minute, Dr. Nelte. Dr. Nelte, the Tribunal think that you can put to this witness, "Did you or did you not make a different statement in an interrogation at some other time?" But the document that you are referring to now is a document which the Tribunal refused to admit on your objections. When the French presented that document, you objected to it and it was therefore not allowed to be put in, so that the proper way in which to put the question now is, "Did you say to Colonel Williams so and so?"
DR. NELTE: I have here a compilation of those points in the document or in the notes of Colonel Williams which according to your declaration are supposed not to be correct. I now ask you, what did you, or did you not upon being questioned by Colonel Williams . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, it is not right for you to say that they are different-you must ask him questions about it, not make statements yourself.
DR. NELTE: What did you say to Colonel Williams to his question, whether the prisoner-of-war camps in their entirety were supposed to be subordinate to the OKW and to Field Marshal Keitel?
WESTHOFF: The prisoner-of-war camps were subordinate to the OKW only to the extent that the OKW had the legal control of them and insofar as the protective powers, that is, the International Red Cross was involved. The OKW did not have the power to give orders or dole out punishment in the camps.
DR. NELTE: What did you answer to Colonel Williams' question, on the right of the OKW regarding the inspection of the camps?
WESTHOFF: The OKW was entitled to inspect. That can be seen also in my official orders in which it states clearly that the inspector was entitled to inspect the camp.
DR. NELTE: What did you answer to Colonel Williams' question, to whom Stalag Lust III, Sagan, was subordinate?
WESTHOFF: Stalag Luft III, Sagan, was subordinate to the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, because the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, on his own wish and already at the beginning of the war, had all prisoner-of-war camps containing airmen placed under his control.
DR. NELTE: Did you answer to one of Colonel Williams' questions that Goering, Himmler, Keitel, and Hitler had decided to shoot the officers who escaped in Sagan?
WESTHOFF: No, that is a mistake. Colonel Williams asked me what the Fuehrer had said to Field Marshal Keitel; thereupon, I answered clearly that I could give no information about this, since I had not taken part in that conference. I could only make statements about the conference which Field Marshal Keitel had with General Von Graevenitz.
DR. NELTE: Did you answer Colonel Williams that Field Marshal Keitel, during this conference with Graevenitz, said, "This is my order"? '
WESTHOFF: No, the Field Marshal could not issue an order regarding the shootings, since the shootings were not within the competence of the Wehrmacht but in that of the Gestapo.
DR. NELTE: During your interrogation, particularly also with Colonel Williams, did you state clearly that it never had been a question of an order issued by Keitel himself or of an order which Keitel transmitted to you on higher orders?
WESTHOFF: It concerned information given to General Von Graevenitz. That is also stated with no reservations in my sworn statement.
DR. NELTE: Then, if I understand you correctly, you declare that Field Marshal Keitel never issued an order of his own nor ever expressed the idea that he at all wanted to give you an order regarding a shooting of the officers?
WESTHOFF: No, that he could also not do.
DR. NELTE: During the previous interrogation by the prosecutor there was talk of a report which the camp commander at Gorlitz is supposed to have delivered to you. This is also in the notes. Did you ask for or receive a report from the camp commander?
WESTHOFF: I had no personal connection at all with the camp commander at Gorlitz. That must be a confusion with the statement of the Swiss representative, Naville.
DR. NELTE: Is it correct that during the discussion between Keitel, on the one hand, and General Von Graevenitz and you, on the other, two matters were brought up: First, the case of the escaped Royal Air Force officers; and, second, the question as to what should be done in the future, or how escapes should be prevented?
WESTHOFF: Yes, that is so.
DR. NELTE: I now have questions to ask you which I request you to answer, if possible, with "yes" or "no." Is it true that in the first case, namely, the affair of the 50 Royal Air Force pilots, only conversation afforded the possibility of gaining information of what had happened in the higher circles?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Did General Graevenitz, upon his return from headquarters, not say to you, "What can we do at all if the Gestapo once gets things into their hands"?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: In other words, it is clear from your whole conversation with Keitel, that it was a question here of an order directed to Himmler from Hitler?
WESTHOFF: In regard to the shooting, yes.
DR. NELTE: After Professor Naville visited the Sagan Camp, did he say to you that his impression was that certainly stronger forces were at work here against which the OKW could do nothing?
WESTHOFF: Yes, he said that.
DR. NELTE: With reference to the escaped pilots, did the OKW do anything regarding their capture or treatment, or was it clear that in this respect this matter was unfortunately settled so far as the OKW were concerned?
WESTHOFF: The OKW could do nothing further because the matter had been taken entirely out of their hands.
DR. NELTE: Accordingly, then, it is not correct to say that, after this discussion between Keitel, Graevenitz, and Westhoff, a conference was again called by the OKW?
WESTHOFF: No, there was no further conference in the OKW.
DR. NELTE: A document has been submitted in which Colonel Walde-it is Document D731, Mr. President-in which Colonel Walde deposes-and to be sure, he says at the beginning that he had to reconstruct from memory what had happened-according to his recollection, he believed that the OKW had called a conference that took place in the Prinz Albrechtstrasse. Do you know anything about that?
WESTHOFF: I only know about this conference from you yourself. It could not have been called by the OKW, for then it would have been held by us in Torgau. Without a doubt, however, it was held in Berlin, as you told me, and that is no conference called by the OKW.
DR. NELTE: Is it correct that prisoner-of-war officers recaptured by the Wehrmacht were again put in the Sagan Camp and also remained there?
WESTHOFF: Yes, that is right.
DR. NELTE: Were recaptured prisoners of war, who were turned over to the camp in any case, let out again?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. NELTE: On the other hand, is it true that you gave the camp commander strict orders on the part of the OKW that recaptured prisoners should under no circumstances be let out of the camp again?
WESTHOFF: The order was not given by me to the camp commander but to the commanders in the military administrative districts in charge of prisoners of war.
DR. NELTE: But by them to the camps?
WESTHOFF: To the camps, yes.
DR. NELTE: An order was mentioned to the effect that the names of the escaped prisoners who had not come back, were to be published. You stated before "as a warning." In order to clarify this question-the purpose of this order which, of course, came from above-I should like to ask you whether Field Marshal Keitel did not say as justification, "I hope, however, that the prisoners will be so shocked by this that in the future they will not escape any more"? WESTHOFF Yes, the Field Marshal said that.
DR. NELTE: You deposed, or rather, it was read to you that Field Marshal Keitel said to you and General Von Graevenitz that nothing should be put down in writing about the whole matter, nor should it be discussed with any other office.
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Is it then correct to say that you drew up a memorandum regarding this matter, namely, the conference, and had it submitted to Keitel?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Is it correct that Field Marshal Keitel did not find fault with this fact as one might certainly really have expected but wrote his initial "K" on the upper corner of this memorandum?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Is it furthermore correct that you, because you had to report, repeatedly got in touch with the Reich Security Main Office in order to find out something about the fate of these unfortunate officers?
WESTHOFF: Not only did I get in touch with the Reich Security Main Office but, since I myself did not succeed in this effort, I also reported the matter to the General Office of the Wehrmacht, but as far as I know, it also did not succeed in this effort.
DR. NELTE: Is it further correct that you asked the representative of the International Red Cross, Dr. Naville, to visit the Sagan Camp in connection with this event?
WESTHOFF: I brought about this visit, yes.
DR. NELTE: Is it furthermore true that Field Marshal Keitel called you up and told you that the Foreign Minister had to have precise knowledge of the whole occurrence, in order to draw up a note of reply?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: And that consequently you were to tell the Foreign Office about the occurrence in all its details?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Did Keitel say on this occasion that you were to conceal anything or to put anything in a false light?
WESTHOFF: No
DR. NELTE: Was the OKW involved in the composition of the note as it was sent in final form?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. NELTE: Is it correct that your representative, Lieutenant Colonel Krafft, was ordered by the Foreign Office to attend a meeting in Berchtesgaden for the sole purpose of giving correct information in reply to possible further inquiry by the representative of the Foreign Office, in case the information were demanded?
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: Is it finally correct that Lieutenant Colonel Krafft reported to you that the Foreign Of lice had presented a note to Hitler, and Hitler had rejected it and then composed the text himself?
WESTHOFF: So far as I recall, that is right.
DR. NELTE: The second part of the conferences between Keitel, Graevenitz, and Westhoff concerned itself with the question of what action should be taken in the future. You stated in this connection that an order was to be drawn up, and that it was a question of certain spheres of competence that had to be discussed with the Reich Security Main Of lice. Tell me in this connection what, if anything, did the Reich Security Main Office or Himmler have to do with the administration of prisoners of war?
WESTHOFF: Himmler was responsible for the security of the Reich and, insofar as all the prisoners of war were concerned, he had to concern himself with the search for all escaped prisoners.
DR. NELTE: Did he, because of this, come into conflict in any way with your OKW Prisoner of War Department?
WESTHOFF: Insofar as we often asked, whenever prisoners of war escaped, what had been done with them and received no information, or information with which we could do nothing, for which we had no use.
DR. NELTE: Does that mean that it was possible that Himmler or his office gave you no information when they caught prisoners of war?
WESTHOFF: That is absolutely possible, and we also supposed that such was the case repeatedly.
DR. NELTE: Did you on one occasion, while drawing up or drafting orders which were concerned with the treatment of escaped prisoners of war, use the words "Stufe III"?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. NELTE: Do you know whether the meaning of these words signifying a death sentence were known at all in the OKW?
WESTHOFF: They were not known to me. I was asked about that the first time in London and had to state then also that I could not give any information about that.
DR. NELTE: When you say, you personally, then you probably mean the organization as well, since you belonged to the OKW.
WESTHOFF: Yes.
DR. NELTE: I have a document here, Number 1514-PS. It concerns a collective order of the commander of Wehrkreis VI regarding the treatment of escaped prisoners of war. You will see in this order a whole number of references to years as far back as 1942. I ask you now according to your knowledge and experience, would not an order supposed to have been issued on 4 March 1944 also have been entered here, had its contents been very important?
WESTHOFF: If it was a question of a secret order, yes.
DR. NELTE: It is in the German . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute Dr. Nelte. Aren't you getting very far away from the subject upon which this witness was being examined? I mean, he was being examined about an interview which he had with the Field Marshal Keitel, and here you are asking him about something which has nothing to do with that at all, as far as I am able to see.
DR. NELTE: I believe that I shall make clear that this has something to do with the second part of this conference, namely, regarding the treatment of recaptured escaped officers. These are preparatory questions that I must ask to make clear, in my opinion . . .
THE PRESIDENT: But it is a very long crossexamination of a witness whom you did not wish to call. The Tribunal wish you to make your crossexamination as brief as possible.
DR. NELTE: I shall make it as brief as the interests of the defendant permit. [Turning to the witness.] Is it not customary in the German system of issuing orders that in referring to an order issued by higher authorities the date and archive number is given?
WESTHOFF: Yes, always.
DR. NELTE: Did you ever give any information to the representatives of the protecting powers or to the International Red Cross that prisoners of war, of whose capture you were fully aware, that these had not been recaptured?
WESTHOFF: No.
DR. NELTE: Do you know anything about-and here I have the last document shown you, 1650-PS... [Document 1650-PS was submitted to the witness.]
THE PRESIDENT: What was the point of showing 1514-PS to him? He has not been asked any relevant questions about it at all.