dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GEN. RUDENKO: All right. We pass on. These instructions concern the aims of the war. They are instructions for all Reich Commissioners of the Occupied Eastern Territories, dated 8 May 1941. This is Document 1030-PS. I will read only a short excerpt, which states-I quote from Page 4. This excerpt is marked in the margin. In these instructions you state that this coming struggle would be a struggle for the supplying of Germany and all of Europe with raw materials and foodstuffs. Do you confirm this?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Then you confirm that.
ROSENBERG: Yes, of course. This document was presented in my office as a draft. That is correct, and I am not disputing it.
GEN. RUDENKO: Do not go into details again. I will remind you once more, please reply briefly. You confirmed this point, and that is enough.
ROSENBERG: This document, yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right. This statement was made by you previous to the attack on the Soviet Union. I will remind you, but I will not submit the document to you since it has already been presented to the Tribunal several times and is at the disposal of the Tribunal. I mean a conference which took place in Hitler's office on 16 July 1941. [Turning to the Tribunal.] This is Document 221, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant] You were present at this conference, were you?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Hitler said then that the Baltic States would have to become an integral part of the Reich, and the same applied to the Crimea with adjacent territories as well as to the Volga districts and also the Baku area. Do you recall these statements of Hitler?
ROSENBERG: I have seen this document, purporting to be Bormann's observations, here for the first time. At that time the Fuehrer made very long, passionate statements. I did not take any exact notes at that conference, but he did in fact speak about the Crimea, and he said that, because of the tremendous power of the Soviet Union, no bearers of arms should be allowed there later and. . .
GEN. RUDENKO: I do not ask why. I ask you: did he say that?
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, you are going too fast. You must wait until the man is finished.
GEN. RUDENKO: He is going into too many details, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant] Well, you admit the Crimea. You agreed with Hitler's idea concerning the seizure of these territories?
ROSENBERG: You can see from the document and you can see from my speech how I pictured the self-determination of all the peoples in the East in a new order of states; and I controverted the declarations of the Fuehrer. That can be seen here. That was how I argued.
GEN. RUDENKO: I do not ask you about that. I am asking you whether you agreed with these ideas of Hitler, or whether you objected to them.
ROSENBERG: Yes, it can be proved that I protested, and it is even shown in the record.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal are not concerned with whether or not it can be proved. The question is: did you agree or not. You can answer that, I suppose. Did you agree, or did you not agree?
ROSENBERG: I agreed with many points and rejected other points; but this is a compilation of at least 10 to 15 points.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is an answer.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right. We will return to this question in a few minutes. I am now passing on to your own directives, which you issued as Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. These documents were already presented to the Tribunal as 1056-PS and EC-347. First of all, I would like to ask you one question: What is this "Brown Folder"?
ROSENBERG: The Brown Folder was compiled by the administrative department of the Eastern Ministry in response to certain requests of industry, of my political department, of the personnel department, and of the technical supply department for officials in the Baltic States and in the Ukraine. Thus it was the first attempt at a general regulation.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right, then that is a sort of "Green Folder." It is quite clear. Now, let us turn to your directives, Document EC-347. We will show you this document right away. Will you note the passage which has been underlined, on Page 39 of the document, if I am not mistaken. I will read this paragraph: "The first task of the civilian administration in the Occupied Eastern Territories is to represent the interests of the Reich." I omit a few lines. "The stipulations of the Hague Convention regarding land warfare, which deal with the administration of territories occupied by a foreign power, do not apply, since the U.S.S.R. can be considered as nonexistent...." Then further: "Therefore, all measures which the German administration deems necessary or suitable in order to carry out this extensive task are admissible." Do you agree that this exposes, your secret designs, although you somehow too hastily proclaimed the Soviet Union as destroyed?
ROSENBERG: In the Russian translation I again heard the word "plundering," but the word "plundering" does not appear in this German text. If the German text is translated in such a way that the word "plundering" appears everywhere, although in the German . . .
GEN. RUDENKO: I interrupt you and say that the word "plundering" is not in the Russian text, which I just read into the record; so I believe you are simply inventing, or at least you did not hear rightly.
ROSENBERG: May I say a few words in this connection?
GEN. RUDENKO: I ask you, did you write this?
ROSENBERG: I did not, in fact, write it, but it was a circular letter which was issued by the Ministry of the Occupied Eastern Territories, and, therefore, I am officially responsible for this Brown Folder. But I would like to say a few words of explanation in regard to this-the explanation about the status of international law in the East I received from the Fuehrer's headquarters. It stated that, in accordance with the attitude of the Soviet Union toward certain conventions, as far as the Hague Convention was concerned, it did not apply to the Soviet Union in this instance. Furthermore, as this document contains many pages, I was not able to read it in its entirety at the time; but on the second page I have already found a paragraph which shows very obviously what lines the wording followed. It states as follows...
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Rosenberg, one minute, please.
ROSENBERG: But I must be allowed to read from the document.
THE PRESIDENT: We must try and conduct this crossexamination in an orderly fashion. Now, what is the question? [Turning to General Rudenko.] What is your question?
GEN. RUDENKO: I put to him the question, whether he admitted that he knew of the tasks put before the civilian administration in the occupied territories as they are set forth in the quotation which I just read. He said that he did know. I have exhausted my questions in this particular sphere. The document is in possession of the Defense and the Defense will be able to quote other parts of this document which have not yet been read into the record. This is a very long document. If I had tried to quote it to the Tribunal in its entirety it would have taken too much time.
THE PRESIDENT: [To the defendant.] You answered the question. I understood what the question was, and that you were told that the Hague Convention did not apply to Russia.
ROSENBERG: Yes. May I quote this one paragraph on Page 40, the next to the last paragraph: "The most important prerequisite for this "-that is, for the development of the East-" is the treatment of the country and of the people in a corresponding manner. The war against the Soviet Union is-with all necessary regard to the securing of foodstuffs-a political campaign with the establishment of lasting order as its objective. The conquered territory as a whole is, therefore, not to be considered an object of exploitation, even if the German food and war economy must lay claim to considerable areas on Q large scale." And I believe I may say that the fact that the necessities of the inhabitants are taken into consideration cannot be expressed more clearly.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I will put to you a few more questions as to how you treated the population, although we have heard quite a lot about this treatment, as you have too. We pass on. I asked you about the Crimea and you said, "Yes, Hitler proposed to annex the Crimea to Germany." Do you remember that you did not only approve of these plans, but you also invented new names for towns-for instance, Simferopol was to be called "Gotenburg" and Sevastopol was to become "Theodorichshafen." Do you remember that?
ROSENBERG: Yes, that is correct. The Fuehrer told me that I should think of a change of names for these cities. The renaming of very many other cities was discussed, too. .
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, of course.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I am expected to conclude my entire presentation of evidence with respect to Rosenberg by 4 o'clock. I do not know how I can do that.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not laid that down as a condition. I did not make any order about it. I said only that the Tribunal hoped, and the "hope" was addressed more to the Prosecution than it was to the Defense.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, if I may be permitted to say so, the Soviet Prosecutor has submitted documents again which I already submitted yesterday, and on which the defendant has already given answers. I am referring to Documents 1029-PS and 1030-PS. The defendant himself already said...
THE PRESIDENT: You are wasting the time of the Court by making this entire interposition.
GEN. RUDENKO: Thus you admit the change of the names of Simferopol and Sevastopol. Next question: You also worked on the reorganization of the Caucasus, and you had organized a special staff. Will you answer 'yes'' or "no"?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Furthermore, you favored Prince Bagration-Mukhransky, an adventurer from the migr circle, as candidate for the throne of Georgia. Is that true? Answer briefly.
ROSENBERG: Yes, that is true. We did mention that-we spoke about him-but we turned down such a candidacy.
GEN. RUDENKO: He was turned down. Is that so? Very well. As regards the reorganization of the Caucasus, on 27 July 1942 you compiled a special report; is that true?
ROSENBERG: It may be that a report was made. Yes-yes, naturally, it is quite a lengthy report. It has been submitted here.
GEN. RUDENKO: And I will show you this report in order to draw your attention to one shorn' quotation. [Turning to the President] I have in mind, Mr. President, a document which has already been submitted as Exhibit USSR-58. [Turning to the defendant.] Defendant Rosenberg, please pay attention to Page 7, a passage which is marked, which says first that the German Reich must seize all the oil. Have you found this passage?
ROSENBERG: On Page 7 of the text I find the passage-yes, I have found it.
GEN. RUDENKO: The text reads: "From the economic point of view the German Reich must take control of the total oil supply. The necessary participation in the riches could be discussed in the future." Do you confirm that this statement was made by you?
ROSENBERG: This document is a memorandum of my office, and I confirm that it is true.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well.
ROSENBERG: May I make a remark in addition? Here we are not talking about the oppression of a people but of an assurance of autonomy and of every possible mitigation for these people. Only I cannot locate that at once from a document which has 14 pages if I only read one sentence.
GEN. RUDENKO: I have just questioned you concerning the tasks of the German Reich with regard to this matter of oil. Now if you look at Page 14 of this same report you will find it at the very end-this is how you define the tasks: "The problem of the Eastern territories consists of a transference of peoples from a Baltic to a German field of culture and the preparation for the military frontiers of Germany on a vast scale. The task of the Ukraine is to provide Germany and Europe with foodstuffs and the continent with raw materials. The task in the Caucasus is, above all, of a political nature and represents the decisive extension of continental Europe, under German direction, from the Caucasian isthmus to the Near East." Did you read this passage?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not deny that these were the actual plans?
ROSENBERG: I affirm that this is set down correctly, and that it is in accord with our hope that eastern continental Europe might, some time, be incorporated into the total economic system and economic supply of the rest of the continent, as had been the case before 1914; for at that time the Ukraine was an important country of exports of raw materials and foodstuffs.
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, your plan concerning the Ukraine is well known. In this connection I will put the last question concerning aggression. After having seen these documents, which you do not deny, do you admit the aggressive and plundering character of Germany's war against the Soviet Union and your personal responsibility for the planning and carrying out of this aggression? Answer briefly. Do you admit this, or do you not?
ROSENBERG: No.
GEN. RUDENKO: No? Very well.
ROSENBERG: No, because I did not consider this a war of aggression on our part but just the opposite.
GEN. RUDENKO: Of course; but we will not go into details. I have a few more questions to put to you concerning the German administration and the German policy in the Occupied Eastern Territories. Who was the highest official in the civil administration in the Reich Commission?
ROSENBERG: The Minister tot the Occupied Eastern Territories was responsible for the administration and legislation in the Eastern Territories, and the Reich Commissioner, for the territorial governments.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, the Tribunal have already heard all about the administration the former administration-and personnel of the administration.
GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, I have only two or three more questions in this particular sphere. [Turning to the defendant.] Did the Reich Commissioner have the authority to issue orders for the arrest and execution of hostages?
ROSENBERG: At this moment I cannot recall whether he had such authority by law, or whether that came under direct police jurisdiction. I cannot answer this question with assurance, for at the moment I do not recall a decree to that effect, but it is not entirely impossible; I do not know.
GEN. RUDENKO: It was possible? Very well. I would like to remind you that you foresaw in your directive this authority of the commissioners to shoot hostages. We will pass right on. A lot has been said here about German policy in occupied territories. I will, therefore, put only a few questions to you. First of all, as regards the Ukraine, you have here described the situation in such a light as to show that Koch was the sole person responsible, whereas you have always asserted that, on the contrary, you were the benefactor of the Ukrainian people.
ROSENBERG: No, that is not correct; I never said that I was a benefactor.
GEN. RUDENKO: In your document, which has been submitted by your defense counsel and which I will therefore not submit to you, Document Rosenberg-l9, Riecke wrote, in a letter to all Reichsleiter of the press in November 1942: "Koch has declared 'that the Ukraine is for us only an object of exploitation, and that it must pay the expenses of the war, and that in a certain way the population must, as a second rate people, be utilized for the tasks of the war, even if they have to be caught with a lasso."' This was the policy of Koch in the Ukraine. This document was submitted by your counsel. I will ask you now: Did you write to Koch on 14 December?
ROSENBERG: May I reply to that? I do not have the verbatim document in front of me. I only know that it was a letter written by Riecke to me with the big complaint which so many others had also had, and that he requested me...
GEN. RUDENKO: Koch?
ROSENBERG: Yes-to complain, and that he used rather drastic language, and that we both strove to reach orderly methods of work here.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal have been all over this matter of Koch as to the Ukraine today, and so it is not helping the Tribunal to go over it again.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right, Mr. President. [returning to the defendant.] Yesterday you stated here repeatedly in your explanations as regards the atrocities and extermination of the Soviet population that you were not informed, and that these were police measures. Did I understand you correctly?
ROSENBERG: No, that is not exactly true. I was informed of many combats with partisans and of bands and, as I have stated, of some shootings; and also I was told about the fact that German agricultural leaders, German officials and policemen, and peaceful Soviet farmers were attacked by these partisans and bands and were murdered by thousands.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. We know that the partisans who fought against the enemies of their country were called bandits by you and treated accordingly. I do not argue that. But I am speaking of the extermination of the civilian population, of old men, women, and children. Did you have knowledge of this?
ROSENBERG: In these combats we tried especially to protect the farming population and others too; and when we heard about what appeared to us to be excessive measures by the Police, we put the most severe demands to them that even in the full heat of battle these matters were to be considered; and the Police told us that it was easy to make those demands from behind a desk, but, if in White Ruthenia the partisans murder and burn 50Q White Ruthenian burgomasters with their families in their houses and we are shot at from the rear, then terrible conflicts must follow.
GEN. RUDENKO: I will remind you that, in your directive concerning occupied territories and organization of administration and the primary task for administration, you personally planned the police measures as your first task. Do you deny this now? I ask you, do you deny this now?
ROSENBERG: If it is Document 1056-PS, I proposed seven urgent measures. I cannot tell you at the moment which is the first one here. I ask that you submit this document to me.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right. I will ask that one paragraph of this document be shown to you, "Police measures," which is in the very first place.
THE PRESIDENT: Has this document been put to him?
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the use of going into it again?
GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, Defendant Rosenberg asked for it. I would like to say simply that the defendant tried to make me believe that he was not informed and that these were purely police measures. I am going to prove that he put as his primary task the carrying out of these police measures.
ROSENBERG: It goes without saying that in an occupied territory in the middle of such a war the Police are responsible for police protection measures. And the third point is "the supply of the population with foodstuffs in order to avoid famine." I repeat, "supply of the population in order to avoid famine."
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. Very well. We heard about this in detail yesterday. I have a few last questions to put to you. First of all, I would like to ask you about the Zuman incident. The document has already been submitted to the Tribunal, but I consider it my duty as a representative of the Soviet Union to put to you this question concerning the shooting of Soviet citizens for the sole purpose of obtaining a stretch of land needed as a hunting ground. You remember this document?
ROSENBERG: Yes, I gave an extensive explanation on it yesterday.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, this has been gone into before before the Tribunal. Why should the Tribunal's time be taken up by going over and over again on the same grounds? We have said that we would not have things done cumulatively.
GEN. RUDENKO: Mr. President, a few details of this question are of great importance, and the defendant did not explain them; therefore, I would like very much to ask this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will adjourn to consider the matter. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: First of all, the Tribunal will rise tomorrow afternoon at half past 4. Now, as to this question, the Tribunal think that the matter has been sufficiently gone into; but, if there is a particular point which has not been dealt with before, a question may be asked in that connection.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant.] Defendant Rosenberg, on 2 April 1943, you addressed a letter to Himmler regarding this incident regarding the shooting of hundreds of Soviet citizens in the region of Zuman, because this place was needed as a hunting ground. Did you not address such a letter to Himmler? Until June 1943, furthermore, you were interested in receiving a reply. What were the results of this letter?
ROSENBERG: First, I wrote to the Chief of the German Police and I had to wait for what he, as the official responsible for the measures of security in the Ukraine, might cause to be done. Where I did not receive any further information, I brought this case as a personal complaint before the Fuehrer.
GEN. RUDENKO: When did you report it to Hitler?
ROSENBERG: This complaint to the Fuehrer was dealt with in the middle of May 1943 and, since it was a rather lengthy complaint probably reached him several weeks in advance, that is, 5 or 6 weeks elapsed between 2 April and the day it was dealt with, the middle or end of May. I believe that is a very short time for dealing with a complaint because: First it had to be investigated rather thoroughly by Lammers and Bormann; then it had to be reported to the Fuehrer; the Fuehrer then had to make his decision and give his directives; and then I was summoned.
GEN. RUDENKO: When was this complaint discussed for the last time?
ROSENBERG: In May-between the middle and the end of May 1943.
GEN. RUDENKO: Was it discussed in the presence of Koch?
ROSENBERG: Yes, indeed.
GEN. RUDENKO: Yesterday you told the Tribunal that Koch presented a report to Hitler-a memorandum from the Forestry Office. Is that true?
ROSENBERG: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Therefore, this memorandum confirmed that it was a fight against the partisans?
ROSENBERG: Not quite exactly like that, but it said that this forest district had to be utilized for the necessary supply of lumber for the Armed Forces or the Administration and that these needed forests harbored many restless partisans and guerrilla bands. Therefore there was great danger for the workers in these districts and it had come to shootings between them and partisans and guerrilla bands; and, since one could not watch over all of them, a transfer of certain groups from these forest districts into forest areas farther south took place. Koch added that then many of these people who had been transferred expressed their thanks for having received better land than they had had before. That was the information that Koch had given.
GEN. RUDENKO: They were grateful that one December night they were evicted from their houses and taken away hundreds of kilometers and hundreds of them shot. They appreciated that very much. I should like to ask you the following, however. In your letter to Himmler on 2 April 1943, you also attached a memorandum from the Forestry Of lice; and in this memorandum it is stated-I am going to read this passage-you should remember this incident-this terrible incident when men were shot because hunting ground was needed. In the memorandum of the Forestry Office it is stated, "There is no doubt that several villages located in the forest region of Zuman were evacuated principally in order to create a hunting area." This is stated in the memorandum of the Forestry Office.