dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
KAUFMANN: The expression "unsch"dlich machen" in this connection is, I think, a bad choice, a dangerous choice, considering the situation at that time and the fact that this letter emanated from the Deputy of the Fuehrer whose humane and decent attitude was well known.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, you see it is used. You have already got "arrested." The "made harmless" must be something different from "arrested." Do you not think, on consideration, that the ordinary Blockleiter to whom this message was orally given would take it that he was to murder the parachutist if he could not arrest him? What is the purpose of all this secrecy if "unsch"dlich gemacht" had not that meaning? Why have you got about 15 different provisions as to the secrecy of this order if it did not mean murder? There is nothing else secret in the order, is there? Nothing else that you could not put in the hands of a Sunday school?
KAUFMANN: The order contains other points, too, apart from Point 4. In the situation of that time, the expression "unsch"dlich machen" meant that if there was any resistance, the person resisting should be made harmless; but I admit that without an explanation to those who received the order, the choice of words was rather dangerous.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, that is the Defendant Hess. Now just look at Himmler's order of the 10th of August 1943. My Lord, Your Lordship will find it on Page 89 ... [turning to the witness] and it is 116 or 117 of your document book.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is sent on the 10th of August 1943. It is sent at Himmler's request by one Brandt, an ObersturmbannFuehrer, and you will see that again-look at the orders for distribution: "At the request of the ReichsFuehrer SS I am sending you the enclosed order, with the request that the Chief of the Order Police and of the Security Police be informed; they are to make this instruction known to their subordinate offices verbally. In addition, the ReichsFuehrer SS requests that the Gauleiter concerned be informed verbally of this order. It is not the task of the Police to interfere in clashes between Germans and English and American terror-fliers who have bailed out." Why, again-why were Gauleiter to be informed verbally if it was not that they were to connive at the murder of the airmen?
KAUFMANN: The intention of this order in its details is not clear to me. I, too, received the order through the Higher SS and Police Leader and I issued- directions both to the Party, that is to say, to the Kreisleiter, with the request to have them transmitted to their subordinates, and to the Police president, that, under all circumstances, the fliers should not be maltreated, but only seized and handed over.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But that was not what the order said, you know, if you passed it on. The order said that the Police were not to interfere in clashes between Germans and the fliers. In other words, they were to stand aside and let the fliers be lynched. If you passed that on, that meant that the Leadership Corps were going to assist and encourage no interference with lynching of Allied airmen. That is what it comes to is it not? Well, now, I just want to remind you, that was not the end. My Lord, if Your Lordship turns to Pages 39 and 40-that is 41, Witness, in your document book. That is on the 30th of May 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Did not the witness say then that according to his understanding these "terror-fliers" were to be seized and turned over?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord. That is quite different from the order.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but to whom were they to be turned over?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Witness, to whom did you understand were the "terror-fliers" to be handed over according to your orders?
KAUFMANN: The Political Leaders, if they participated in the arrest, were to turn the captured fliers over to the Police, and the Police was to turn them over to the Air Force authorities concerned.
SIR DAVID MAXVTELL-FYFE: Your orders were that the Political Leaders who participated were to hand them over to the Police. Was that the Ordnungspolizei or the Sicherheitspolizei?
KAUFMANN: To the Ordnungspolizei.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now the next order is one of Bormann7s on the 30th of May 1944, and you will find it on Page 41. It is Page 39 of Your Lordship's. You will see the first paragraph says: "In the last few weeks low-flying English and American fliers have repeatedly, from a low altitude, machine-gunned children playing in squares, women and children at work in the fields, peasants plowing, vehicles on the highways, trains, et cetera, and have thus murdered defenseless civilians-particularly women and children-in the vilest manner. Several instances have occurred where members of the crews of such aircraft who have bailed out or have made forced landings were lynched on the spot immediately after capture by the populace which was incensed to the highest degree. No Police measures or criminal proceedings were invoked against the German civilians who participated in these incidents." And you will see that that goes to Reichsleiter, Gauleiter, and Kreisleiter, and you will see that on the next page: "The leader of the Party Chancellery"-that is Bormann-"requests that the Ortsgruppenleiter be instructed concerning the content of this circular letter orally only."
KAUFMANN: That order of Bormann is well known to me. I had it stopped by the Chief of the Gau Staff Office, and beyond that, for safety reasons and in view of this letter, I repeated the order which, as I have already mentioned here, I issued to the Party and to the Police or rather to the Police President; although in Hamburg, too, casualties had been caused in the ways listed in this document.
SIR DAVED MAXWELL-FYFE: But you do not dispute, do you, Witness, that the purpose of that order was to encourage everyone down to Ortsgruppenleiter not to interfere with the lynching of airmen?
KAUFMANN: No, that is quite evident from the wording ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am not going to argue with written document. I prefer to show you how it was interpreted h another Gau. Would you turn to Page 27? If Your Lordship will be good enough to turn to Page 25 you will find the Document L-154, Exhibit USA-335. That is the Gauleiter Service, 25 February 1945, for southen Westphalia-the Gauleiter and National Defense Commissioner o the Gau Westphalia South signed by one Hoffmann-and there is distribution to county counsellors, Kreisleiter, and staff chiefs of th Volkssturm. It says: "Any fighter-bomber pilots shot down are on principle not to be protected against the indignation of the people. I expect from all Police offices that they will refuse to lend their protection to these gangster types. Authorities acting in contradiction to the popular sentiment will be taken to account by me. All Police and gendarmerie officials are to be informed immediately of this, my attitude. Signed, Albert Hoffmann." It is quite clear that in some Gaue it was interpreted as a direct order to hold off and not interfere in any way if these fliers were being lynched. However, you say that in the Gau Hamburg you gave orders that they were to be handed over to the Police.
KAUFMANN: The document shows that the order was interpreted in that way in several Gaue-and I have to admit that in view of the experiences of the last months. But I am convinced that in some Gaue the order was handled in the same manner as in mine
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Witness, there is one point ther I would like you to explain to the Tribunal, though it is not strict on the Leadership Corps. Why would an SA OberstunnbannFuehrer initial that document on 25 February -1945; why would he be initialing it?
KAUFMANN: I did not understand the question.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If you look at your Page 27, you will see that it is initialed by Buckemiiller, SA ObersturmbannFuehrer and country staff chief of the Volkssturm; why would he be initialing it?
KAUFMANN: That I do not know.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I would not trouble you. Now, I want to take the next subject and again, I hope, deal ver shortly with what Dr. Servatius mentioned-the churches. Do you agree that it was the general policy of the Nazi Party to do everything in its power to weaken the influence of the Christian churches?
KAUFMANN: No.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, now, would you look at Page I of that last book. It is Page 7 of your book and Page 1 of the English book. That is dated the 12th of December 1941 and it deals with a secret decree of the Reichsleiter Bormann regarding the relationship of National Socialism to Christendom. If you would look at the first paragraph, that deals with the finding of this decree, a copy of a letter on the "relationship," in the papers of a Protestant priest called Eichholz at Aix-la-Chapelle, which is supposed to originate from Reichsleiter Bormann; and then the second paragraph says: "As far as this document is concerned it does in fact, as I have ascertained, represent a secret decree of the Party Chancellery signed by Reichsleiter Bormann, in which Reichsleiter Bormann clearly points out that National Socialism and Christendom are incompatible and that the influence of the churches in Germany, including the Protestant Church, must be eliminated. The decree was addressed to Gauleiter Dr. Meyer at Mnster on 6 June 1941." And then it gives the reference: "I have ascertained that on 7 June 1941 the decree was also sent to the remaining Gauleiter ... " And it says that since this first paragraph of the circular decree addressed to all Gauleiter is missing from the document in possession of Priest Eichholz, it appears it was known to the Church. Now, do you remember getting the decree of Bormann about the 7th of June 1941? If you cannot remember the decree, you will find it in the next two pages and I just remind you of one or two of the worst pieces in it. At the end of the second paragraph it says: "Our National Socialist ideology is far loftier than the concepts of Christianity, which in their essential points have been taken over from Jewry.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: For this reason also we do not need Christianity." And it says that if the youth does not learn about it, Christianity will disappear; and then there are-some very odd utterances and it talks about a vital force; and if you will look toward the end of Bormann's document, it says in the third from last paragraph: "For the first time in German history the Fuehrer consci ously and completely has the leadership of the people in his own hand. With the Party, its components, and attached units the Fuehrer has created for himself and thus the German Reich leadership an instrument which makes him independent of the Church." And it goes on to develop that and if you will look at the penultimate paragraph, in the second sentence, it says: "Just as the deleterious influences of astrologers, seers, and other fakers are eliminated and suppressed by the State, so must the possibility of Church influence also be totally removed." Now that it is recalled to your memory, I should not think that you should have forgotten a decree couched in such, shall we say extraordinary language as that; do you remember it?
KAUFMANN: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you still say that the National Socialist Party leadership was not doing everything in its power t attack Christianity?
KAUFMANN: Yes. This is a statement by Bormann which, to my knowledge, was withdrawn a few days later upon- orders of the Fuehrer as a personal opinion of Bormann.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That cannot be so, because if you notice, the decree was -issued on the 7th of June and this decree which, after all, is going to the RSHA, to Mller, is the 12th of December, which is 6 months after the decree was opened and there is nothing in that decree about its being withdrawn. Surely, if it had been withdrawn on the 14th of June there would have been something in this decree to the Security Service and Intelligence Office of the Reich, surely they would have enough intelligence and information to know that a decree had been withdrawn 6 months before.
KAUFMANN: I am speaking here under oath and I say that this decree of May was hot only withdrawn, but had actually to be sent back.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, how do you account for the fact that the Security Police never heard about its being withdrawn-and we discuss it in detail-let us take it in that way. I do not know if you had heard or you may have read that the Defendant Fritzsche here said that "even Goebbels was afraid of Bormann," so is it not correct that Bormann was a man who had great influence, especially in the last years?
KAUFMANN: That is correct, but it is not correct that there was nobody who was not afraid of him.
SIR DAVID ALAXWELL-FYFE: But there would be many who would be influenced if Bormann was to give an anti-Christian lead to the National Socialist Party, would there not?
KAUFMANN: Only the cadre of the Party, possibly.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I will only take two examples and we will try to take them well spaced out. I suggest to you that yours is typical. Let me take one in 1935. My Lord, it is Document Number 1507-PS, and it is a new document. I cannot remember, Witness, whether you are a Catholic or a Protestant. I have no ulterior motive. I am going to deal with an incident in a Catholic church. Of which are you?
KAUFMANN: I was a Catholic.
SIR DAVJD MAXWELL-FYFE: I take it quite surely you will follow it. You will know who the people are and so forth. This is an incident on the 27th of March 1935, when Cardinal Faulhaber was preaching in the cathedral at Freising and the local branch of the Party wanted to take a record of the sermon in case His Eminence was saying anything which might offend the Party; and they did so by breaking one of the windows of the church and inserting a cable which would pick up the sound so that a record could be taken, and there were various happenings and a lot of discussion with which I shall not trouble the Tribunal, but one of the priests of the cathedral brought the incident to the attention of the local Wehrmacht commander and it is with regard to what he says in relation to the functioning of the Leadership Corps that I want to draw your attention. You may take it from me that that is the general incident which is described at great length and which has accusations of exaggeration on both sides and therefore, I am only going to take you to the passage in which the local commandant deals with the situation. My Lord, it is at the bottom of Page 4. My Lord, it says "Page 5, continued at the top." Has Your Lordship got that?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is in the bottom paragraph on Page 5. This is after the occurrence when the Wehrmacht officer is making his report; he says: "On Monday, the 18th of this month, there came to the house of the staff paymaster Grueber the district leader of the Nazi women's organization, Dr. Kreis, and asked the wife of the staff paymaster, Grueber, to come immediately with her to the cathedral to listen to the sermon of Cardinal Faulhaber, implying that this was Frau Grueber's duty as a member of the Party and the Nazi women's organization Frau Grueber's objection that she was a Protestant was rejected as unimportant; instead it was ordered that every member of the Nazi women's organization has to attach herself to an SA man in civilian clothes, in which way they would be considered as audience and not as Party members sent out for a purpose. There is no doubt that this measure shows the intention of disturbing the service and of causing uproarious incidents." And on that, the Wehrmacht officer, very wisely you may think, told her to rely on the fact that Herr Grueber was a paymaster or something of that sort and he need not be mixed up with the Party matters. But what I want to ask you about is this: The Kreisleiterin, leader of the district women, she would be the women's leader on the Kreis staff of the Party, would she not? If I am wrong, correct me. Is that her position?
KAUFMANN: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And she would not have taken that action of collecting the women of Munich to come and form a: group when Cardinal Faulhaberwas preaching, without the orders of the Kreisleiter, would she? She would not, would she? It must have been on the Kreisleiter's orders; is that not so?
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question, please.
KAUFMANN: The incident described here is completely unknown to me and I really cannot imagine that a serious man-in this -case a Kreisleiter-would order a measure which in its effects must turn against the Party.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I am referring to, you see, is this: Here is a report of a responsible officer in the Wehrmacht. I think he is regimental commander, and it is countersigned by his adjutant. He is saying that the Kreisleiterin who is the women's leader has come to this paymaster's wife and got her to do it. What I am putting to you is: Assuming that Mr. Grueber and this regimental commander are correct-it must do for the moment-, assuming they are correct, the kreisleiterin would not have acted without orders from the Kreisleiter, would she?
KAUFMANN: That is probable. In my Gau, this Kreisleiter would have been dismissed.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But are you telling the Tribunal that ...
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I think this document speaks for itself.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship please, I think so. My Lord, I am only going to give another example. I have to deal with just the points raised by Dr. Servatius and limit the examples as much as I can. -
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, the Tribunal thinks, with reference to any documents which you may have, perhaps it would save time, if they are not documents made by the witness who is in the box if you would just put the documents in without cross examination.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will do it. It will save time. I will welcome this. I will be glad to do as Your Lordship suggests. It suits my purpose much better.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, the introduction of new evidence unknown to me is, I think, inadmissible; I have no opportunity to comment on these documents, since my own documentary evidence is completed. All my material, affidavits, and documents have been submitted, and my witnesses have been examined. I do not know how I can reply to these new documents.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sure Sir David will let the counsel for the defense have the documents as soon as possible, and if it is impossible for the counsel to re-examine them when he comes to them, he can reply on the document later.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: There are copies available, and they will be given to Dr. Servatius right away. The next one I was going to refer to on the question of churches is Document D-901, which is a new document. That contains four reports by Ortsgruppenleiter. I should have said Exhibit GB-536.
THE PRESIDENT: You gave a number to that other document, did you, the other one you put in? Was there not another new document you put in, 1507-PS?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: GB-535, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, this document consists of four reports from Ortsgruppenleiter and the comments made upon them by the Kreisleiter. My Lord, I shall only quote to the Tribunal the first sentence of the first two reports, which will show what they are. The first is the Ortsgruppe Darmstadt-Schlossgarten, 20 February 1939, "Point 9, Ecclesiastical questions." I quote: "As the caretaker of the parish hall of the parish of St- Martin, Blockleiter and Party Member Keil informs me that meetings of the Confessional Front are again taking place at the St. Martin's House, Mllerstrasse (Ortsgruppe Gutenberg), the public being excluded. Only bearers of red passes are admitted." And then he makes his objection to the fact that the Bible class is being carried on behind closed doors and he mentions the Gestapo. The second one refers to a statement by an ecclesiastic. That is from the Ortsgruppe Pfungstadt, 17 February 1939: "Whoever leaves the Church has different taxes imposed on him, so our much-discussed confessional pastor, Strack, said once again on the occasion of a mothers' evening. This gentleman should really be rapped on the knuckles seriously for once." And then the third one sends a poem of the Confessional Front and a fourth deals with the continued existence of a Protestant youth club. My Lord, the comments of the Kreisleiter, which are on the third page-I will just read I and 2: "Report on the political situation for the month of February 1939. "I. The report of Ortsgruppenleiter Wimmer, St. Martin's parish. The SD, Gestapo, and the competent Ortsgruppenleiter will be instructed by me. "2. 1 shall request Ortsgruppenleiter Frick, Who reports from Pfungstadt, to go to the Kreisleiter tomorrow and shall get him to name his witnesses. This will be communicated to you and to the Gestapo (to, the latter with a report of the case). The pastor Strack is sufficiently well known and ripe for the concentration camp or the Special Court. His reported statement before fellow-Germans constitutes an infringement of the law against malice.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In any case, the fellow must disappear from the territory of the Kreis or Gau." My Lord, I do not think I need trouble the Tribunal with any more. That is the essential point. Now, My Lord, I have two documents on slave labor which are also new. My Lord, the first is Document 315-PS, Which will become Exhibit GB-537. My Lord, that is the minutes of a conference on the treatment of foreign labor, on 12 March 1943. My Lord, the object of this document is to show that it was a deliberate and general change of policy and if Your Lordship will look at the middle of the second paragraph, Your Lordship will find the sentence: "In this instance the hitherto prevailing treatment"-now that is the point I want to emphasize-"the hitherto, prevailing treatment of the Eastern Workers has led not only to a diminished production but has also most disadvantageously influenced the political orientation of the people in the Occupied Eastern Territories and has resulted in the well-known difficulties of our troops. In order to facilitate military operations the morale has to be improved by a better treatment of the Eastern Workers in the Reich." Now, My Lord, the importance of that is shown when you get that coming into the Party channels, which is shown in the next Document 205-PS. My Lord, that will become Exhibit GB-538. My Lord, you see, that is from a decree of the Defendant Bormann. It comes from the Party Chancellery and it says: "The Reich Propaganda Ministry and the RSHA have together issued a memorandum concerning the treatment of foreign laborers employed within the Reich. "I request in the attached copy that the necessity for a firm but just treatment of the foreign workers be made clear to members of the Party and to fellow Germans." And the distribution is to Reichsleiter, Gauleiter, Kreisleiter, and Ortsgruppenleiter. My Lord, on Page 2, Number 1 on Page 2, the third paragraph on Page 2, it begins: "Everyone, even the primitive man, has a sensitive perception of justice. Consequently, every unjust treatment has a very bad effect.