dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MR. DODD: Are you sure about that?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: How many people did you send to concentration camps?
LAUTERBACHER: I might have handed over 5 or 10 persons to ordinary courts for violating war economy regulations. And in one case which I remember particularly well, there were two people who refused...
MR. DODD: Well, I do not care about the details: Just tell me how many you sent.
LAUTERBACHER: There were two. I do not know if they were sent to concentration camps, because I myself could not intern them. The internment was decided in Berlin.
MR. DODD: Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-u-c-k, Heinrich Huck?
LAUTERBACHER: Huck-no. At the moment I cannot remember that name.
MR. DODD: The police commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know him.
MR. DODD: I want to ask: Did you not have a foreign worker from one of the eastern countries hanged, publicly hanged in the market square, and to remain there a whole day, at one time, while you were the Gauleiter up there?
LAUTERBACHER: No. Where is that supposed to have happened?
MR. DODD: It is supposed to have happened in Hildesheim.
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: In March of 1945, just before the war ended.
LAUTERBACHER: No. That is unknown to me. I never gave any such instructions.
MR. DODD: Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners poisoned or shot just before the city was taken by an Allied army?
LAUTERBACHER: No, that was put to me in London, and I think I cleared up the matter.
MR. DODD: You know what I am talking about, then?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, the penitentiary at Hameln.
MR. DODD: You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or else they were to be shot? You know about that, do you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I was told about that in London.
MR. DODD: And not only does your Kreisleiter say that but Richard Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hameln, confirms that the order was passed on, that either they were to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?
LAUTERBACHER: I never gave any such order.
MR. DODD: I am asking you if you know that these people associated with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen these affidavits, have you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I was told of it in London; but I was also told that the inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot, but sent back.
MR. DODD: Yes, they were, but not because of you, but because your people refused to carry out your orders, is not that so?
LAUTERBACHER: I know nothing about that, because I was no longer in Hameln and no longer a Gauleiter.
MR. DODD: You have seen these affidavits, so I do not think there is any need to hand them to you, but I am going to offer them in evidence.
LAUTERBACHER: I received the statement of the commissioned Kreisleiter, Dr. Kramer, in London, and I replied to it.
MR. DODD: Very well. You know what he says, then? I offer this D-861 as Exhibit USA-874, Mr. President. It is a document consisting of 7 affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while he was Gauleiter there.
THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is relevant?
MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man's credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they have anything to do directly with the case, other than they show the kind of individual he is, as we claim, and that the Tribunal should have this information before it when it considers the weight it will give to his testimony. I have also just been reminded by my friend, Mr. Elwyn Jones, that of course it would have a bearing on the issue of the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, of which he is a member. That had not occurred to me, however. However, I do wish to claim it as a ground, also, for this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these affidavits?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will have to inquire. I do not know. They are in custody, some of them at least, in the British zone here in Germany.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, you have just inquired where these people are who made these affidavits. Perhaps I can assist you in clarifying these questions. This Josef Kramer, whom the Prosecution have just quoted as the leading witness against the witness Lauterbacher, was sentenced to 7 years' imprisonment by an English court some 8 or 10 days ago, and this for the very reason which the prosecutor has just mentioned. Herr Lauterbacher knows nothing about this matter, but quite accidentally I read a report of this trial in a German newspaper and I have the report here. In that article, dated 2 May of this year, it is stated that the former Kreisleiter of Hameln, Dr. Josef Kramer, was sentenced by the court of the 5th British Division to 7 years' imprisonment. I quote from that article: "Upon the approach of the Allied troops Kramer had given the order to liquidate the inmates of the penitentiary at Hameln. 'No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner is to be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy,' was his order. 'They must all be poisoned with prussic acid, or, if that is not possible, they will have to be shot.' " That was the wording of the order given by ex-Kreisleiter Josef Kramer; and he is now being used as a witness against my witness here. The report goes on to say that officials at the penitentiary, who appeared as witnesses, stated that in spite of this order from Dr. Kramer they had refused to liquidate the prisoners. The rest is of no interest but I thought that perhaps it might be important for the Tribunal, when dealing with this question, to see from a document how this former Kreisleiter behaved in reality. If you are interested, Mr. President, the newspaper clipping, although it is in German, can be admitted to you at once.
MR. DODD: May I say, Mr. President, that perfectly substantiates the document; that is, Kramer says in here that is what he did, that he passed orders on but that he got them from this man. If anything, it supports us. It does not hurt us one whit insofar as the value of this document is concerned. In looking them over, I think it is perhaps best if I only offer the first one and the last one. There are some others in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect, for the Court. I shall withdraw all but the first and last and offer only the affidavit of Kramer and the affidavit of Huck.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned, they do not think that his answers on questions of credit ought to be challenged by other evidence. So far as the Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these documents are only evidence of one individual crime.
MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President. Witness, I understood you to say that you never heard the Defendant Von Schirach say anything really derogatory of the Jewish people, and, on the contrary, you heard him speak out quite openly after the events of 9 November 1938. Did I understand you correctly?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, he criticized the atrocities in no uncertain terms at the meeting of Gauleiters. He had no doubt that...
MR. DODD: Do not go all through it again. I just wanted to be sure that I understood you correctly. I suppose you read the Hitler Youth yearbook for the year 1938, as the Deputy to the Reich Leader.
LAUTERBACHER: At the moment I do not remember this book. If I could have a look at it?
MR. DODD: Of course I do not expect you to. I merely wanted to ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read your yearbook?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: What, you did not read it?
LAUTERBACHER: I cannot remember, no.
MR. DODD: Well, would it not be customary for you to read the yearbook? Let us put it that way.
LAUTERBACHER: The yearbook was compiled by the Press Department and I had no influence on the details of the journalistic make-up of our newspapers, periodicals or yearbooks. I do not remember this book, at least as far as it concerns demands for anti-Semitic atrocities, or a policy of force.
MR. DODD: Well, I will show it to you in any event and call your attention to an article in the yearbook concerning the Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? Where they were charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in history. That was put out, I assume, after the brave statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is for the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I refer to on Page 192.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: Have you seen that article before?
LAUTERBACHER: No. That yearbook had no official character; it was a private enterprise on the part of the publishers.
MR. DODD: Now, just a minute. What do you mean, "it had no official character"? It was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth, was it not?
LAUTERBACHER: This yearbook was not officially edited by the Hitler Youth or by the Party. I never saw it until after it was published.
MR. DODD: It was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP, was it not?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, that is correct; I see that.
MR. DODD: It was called The Yearbook of the Hitler Youth , and you put it out for a good many years consecutively, did you not? I do not mean you personally, but I mean the Party and the Hitler Youth.
LAUTERBACHER: No. This yearbook was compiled and published every year by the gentleman mentioned there, or by others, as the case might be.
MR. DODD: I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that this was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was put out, and it was put out each year. Now is that not so?
LAUTERBACHER: This book appeared every year, but I repeat again that it had no official character, nor do I believe that...
MR. DODD: Well, what would you say would give it an official character?
LAUTERBACHER: If it said here, "Published by the Reich Youth Leader's Office," it would have an official character.
MR. DODD: And the fact that it said, "Published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP" would not give it one, is that it?
LAUTERBACHER: Certainly not.
MR. DODD: You did not put out any other publications in the nature of a yearbook did you, except this one?
LAUTERBACHER: A calendar was published every year.
MR. DODD: Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am talking about a report or a book
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: And you are still telling this Tribunal that this was not the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was published in Germany?
LAUTERBACHER: I repeat that this yearbook did not have any official character.
MR. DODD: Well, after having read that quotation, do you still think that Schirach, as leader of the Reich Youth, was not actively speaking about the Jews in a derogatory sort of way, or that talk of this kind was not going on under his leadership?
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach never left any doubt regarding his anti-Semitic attitude as long as he was Reich Youth Leader.
MR. DODD: Do you know the speech he made in 1942 when he took credit for deporting the Jews from Vienna? Are you familiar with that speech?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know that speech. During that time I was in Hanover, and Schirach was in Vienna.
MR. DODD: Yes. He was a fellow Gauleiter at that time. Did you ever get any SS reports on what was happening to the Jews in the East?
LAUTERBACHER: Never. I never had access to SS reports, SS circulars, or orders.
MR. DODD: Did you deport any Jews from your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: When I came to the Gau in December 1940, the Jews had already emigrated.
MR. DODD: They were already out by the time you got there?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: Did you ever hear of Gauleiters getting reports from Heydrich or from Himmler about what was happening to the Jews in the East? Did any of your fellow Gauleiter ever tell you that they got reports regularly, say by the month or by the week?
LAUTERBACHER: No. Himmler's reports were no more accessible to the Gauleiter than they were to the honorary leaders of the SS. As Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS I never received a report or an instruction from Himmler.
MR. DODD: Those Himmler reports were handled pretty carefully, were they not? I am now asking you-as an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I suppose you know something about it-were those reports handled very carefully, those Himmler and Heydrich reports?
LAUTERBACHER: As an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I never received any of Himmler's reports, and I know that Himmler sent all reports dealing with confidential or internal SS matters only to SS and Police, that is, SS leaders in the service of the SS, but never to the honorary leaders.
MR. DODD: Now, what I really asked you was whether or not the reports, when they were sent out, were very carefully handled. Do you know the answer to that?
LAUTERBACHER: I do not know. I do not know how these reports were handled.
MR. DODD: What was Heydrich's reputation, so far as you were concerned, in 1942? Did you think very well of him or did you think very poorly of him before he was killed?
LAUTERBACHER: I only knew Heydrich from meeting him a few times in the Reich Youth Leader's Office, and I had a good impression of him personally. I am forced to have a different opinion of him now; but only because I now know of his measures.
MR. DODD: What was he doing in the Reich Youth Leader's Office the few times that you met him? What business did he have there?
LAUTERBACHER: He had intervened on his own initiative and through his own agencies in cases of homosexuality. Schirach forbade that and told him that these matters too were first of all subject to his own jurisdiction.
MR. DODD: You sat in on all of these conferences with Heydrich, no matter how many there were, did you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I participated in one conference on the question of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth.
MR. DODD: Tell us this: Did it appear to you, from what you saw and heard there, that Heydrich and Schirach were very friendly, or on a very friendly basis?
LAUTERBACHER: That conference did not take place with Von Schirach, but with one of the officials from the Reich Youth Leader's Office who, as Chief of the Hitler Youth Legal Administration, conducted the discussion with Heydrich.
MR. DODD: Were you ever present when Heydrich talked to Von Schirach? Were you ever present?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: Did Heydrich ever talk to you, or rather, did Von Schirach ever talk to you about Heydrich?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I cannot remember that.
MR. DODD: We have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. SAUTER: With the permission of the President, I shall now call my next witness, Gustav Hoepken. [The witness Hoepken took the  stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
GUSTAV DIETRICH HOEPKEN (Witness): Gustav Dietrich Hoepken.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Hoepken, I have already examined you on the case of Schirach when you were in Prison?
HOEPKEN: Yes, you have already examined me.
DR. SAUTER: How old are you?
HOEPKEN: I am 36.
DR. SAUTER: What is your father's occupation?
HOEPKEN: My father is a dock laborer.
DR. SAUTER: And yourself?
HOEPKEN: I was a newspaper boy, a dock laborer, a spare-time student, and sports instructor.
DR. SAUTER: Sports instructor. You are now in American hands, are you not?
HOEPKEN: Yes, I am a prisoner in American hands.
DR. SAUTER: Since when?
HOEPKEN: Since 19 May 1945.
DR. SAUTER: Has the Prosecution interrogated you on this matter?
HOEPKEN: Up to now the Prosecution has not interrogated me.
DR. SAUTER: When did you join the Hitler Youth?
HOEPKEN: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1933.
DR. SAUTER: You joined the Hitler Youth in 1933? How old were you at that time?
HOEPKEN: I was 23.
DR. SAUTER: And in what capacity did you join?
HOEPKEN: First as an ordinary member. In September 1933 I became an Unterbannfuehrer in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Unterbannfuehrer in 1933?
HOEPKEN: Yes, in September 1933.
DR. SAUTER: Was that a salaried position or an honorary appointment?
HOEPKEN: From 1933 to 1935 I worked as a sports instructor in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: And in 1935?
HOEPKEN: In 1935 I joined the government offices at Potsdam as an expert on PT in schools.
DR. SAUTER: But that had nothing to do with the Hitler Youth, had it?
HOEPKEN: At Potsdam I also commanded the Potsdam unit and local headquarters of the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: So you were a civil servant-or rather, an employee of the State and apart from that an honorary leader of the Hitler Youth?
HOEPKEN: From 1935 until 1939 I was a civil servant in the government offices at Potsdam and I also commanded the Hitler Youth unit and local headquarters at Potsdam in an honorary capacity.
DR. SAUTER: Therefore in the summer of 1939 you joined the Reich Youth Leadership, did you?
HOEPKEN: In June 1939 I joined the Reich Youth Leadership and became adjutant to Baldur van Schirach who was Reich Youth Leader at the time.
DR. SAUTER: And how long did you hold that of lice?
HOEPKEN: Until August 1939, and then I became a soldier.
DR. SAUTER: Before you joined Schirach's staff, had you not served in the Armed Forces?
HOEPKEN: Up to joining Schirach in 1939 I had done 8 weeks' obligatory training in the Air Force.
DR. SAUTER: Apart from that, you had no training?
HOEPKEN: Apart from that I had no military training.
DR. SAUTER: Were you an officer?
HOEPKEN: I had not been an officer up to that time.
DR. SAUTER: So far as his other collaborators were concerned, did Schirach attach importance to their being officers or trained soldiers?
HOEPKEN: So far as I know, Von Schirach did not care whether his collaborators were soldiers or officers, on the contrary, it was his view, as he told me repeatedly, that soldiers and officers, as far as he could see, were less suitable as youth leaders.
DR. SAUTER: I do not want to go into the general question of the training of the Hitler Youth, but I wish to ask you one single question on this point, especially because you are a sports instructor by profession. It is a question about the training of the Hitler Youth in shooting. Were they trained with military weapons, or how were they trained in firing?
HOEPKEN: The Hitler Youth were trained in shooting with air guns or small arms. They did not shoot with military weapons.
DR. SAUTER: In that case I will not put any further questions to you on the subject of uniform as these questions have already been clarified. But there is one other thing in which I am interested and that is the relationship to the Church: Do you know, Witness, whether the Defendant Von Schirach in 1937, that is in the issue of the Berlin paper, the Berliner Tageblatt R 14 January 1937, published an article written by his press adviser Gunther Kaufmann, headed "Can the Gap be Bridged"? That article, a copy of which I have before me, deals with a problem in which I am interested, and that is why I want to ask you: Do you know what Schirach made his press adviser write in that article on the question of whether the Hitler Youth leaders should consider the young people's need for church services or not?
HOEPKEN: I know the article.
DR. SAUTER: You know it?
HOEPKEN: I also know the order issued by the Reich Youth Leader of that time stating that on Sundays there should be no Hitler Youth duty for all those boys and girls who wanted to attend church. Every boy and girl in the Hitler Youth at that time was supposed to be able to attend religious services of his or her own free will; and it was made part of the duty of the Hitler Youth leaders at the time to refrain from entering into any arguments or controversies about the Hitler Youth and the Church. He prohibited that.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, that is the main point of that article of 14 January 1937. But you know that the Defendant Schirach had certain difficulties with Hitler because of this article. Will you tell us briefly what you know about it?
HOEPKEN: As soon as the agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth was made, the article mentioned appeared in the Berliner Tageblatt . On the day that article appeared, Schirach was at a meeting in Rosenberg's office. Hitler called Schirach to the telephone at that time. Hitler took Schirach sternly to task, firstly, for making an agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth and, secondly, for publishing this article. His intention was to cancel the agreement and to ban any further issue of the newspapers. Neither of these things happened.
DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach refuse to withdraw the article?
HOEPKEN: So far as I know he did.
DR. SAUTER: In 1940 you went to Vienna with Schirach?
HOEPKEN: No, I did not.
DR. SAUTER: When did you go?
HOEPKEN: I went to Vienna for the first time in September 1941.
DR. SAUTER: Where had you been in the meantime?
HOEPKEN: I have already told you that I joined the Luftwaffe in August 1939 and served during that time as a service flying instructor in a Luftwaffe training school.
DR. SAUTER: And you did not rejoin Schirach until 1941, and then in Henna?
HOEPKEN: Yes; I joined Schirach in Vienna in September 1941.
DR. SAUTER: The highest dignitary of the Catholic Church in Vienna is Cardinal Innitzer, right?
HOEPKEN: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know what Von Schirach's attitude to Cardinal Innitzer was? I will tell you at once why I am asking you this question; I want to know if it is true that Schirach objected to Cardinal Innitzer's being molested by the Hitler Youth, and what steps he took, et cetera.
HOEPKEN: Schirach told me repeatedly that he would like to have a talk with Cardinal Innitzer, but that he was not allowed to do so, firstly, because of a decree issued by the former head of the Party Chancellery, Martin Bormann, prohibiting the Gauleiter from contacting Church dignitaries and, secondly, because Schirach knew that he himself was under surveillance.
DR. SAUTER: Who, Schirach?
HOEPKEN: That Schirach was under surveillance and thought that if he forced such a discussion, Bormann would be certain to know of it on the next day, which would have had most unpleasant consequences both for Schirach and Cardinal Innitzer. On the other hand, it was Schirach's view that Cardinal Innitzer also would certainly have liked to have a talk with Schirach and Schirach thought that certainly would not have been the case if Cardinal Innitzer had not known of his tolerant attitude toward the Church and the Christian religion. It is furthermore known to me-and I think this happened in the winter of 1944 to 1945-that Cardinal Innitzer was molested by youthful civilians while returning from mass. Cardinal Innitzer had the police find out the names of these youngsters, and they turned out to be Hitler Youth leaders. Schirach ordered the competent district leader of the Hitler Youth to him the same day, took him severely to task, and demanded that the youth leaders in question be relieved of their duties at once. As far as I know, this was actually done. I believe I also remember that Schirach had a letter of apology sent to Cardinal Innitzer, either personally or through one of his officials.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we had better break off now. [The Tribunal adjourned until 28 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]