dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SAUCKEL: I can no longer remember today whether I spoke directly to Goering or not. I can only declare that I made repeated efforts to stop the practice, and that in the spring of 1944, in March I believe, my efforts were actually crowned with success and the small badge "Ost" was changed to a national badge on the sleeve, as had been suggested by liaison officers for the various peoples in the East.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked you whether you discussed the matter with Goering?
SAUCKEL: I cannot remember. Perhaps I did; perhaps not. It was frequently discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I think you might pass on from this.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In reply to questions by your defense counsel and by my French colleague in regard to Speer's attitude to your appointment as Plenipotentiary General, you mentioned that you did not know anything at all about it. You will now be handed an article from the newspaper, Voelkischer Beobachter. This is Exhibit Number USSR-467 and I am submitting it to the Tribunal. This article was published on 28 March 1942 in connection with your appointment as Plenipotentiary General. It has even got your photograph, as you can see for yourself. Have you found the passage with the following statement: "The appointment, at the wish of Reich Minister Speer, of Gauleiter Sauckel was also due to the extraordinary importance of labor allocation in the armament industry." We assume that you must have read the article. Did you read the article?
SAUCKEL: I really cannot say so positively at this moment. It is however possible or probable. I did not have much time to read the papers then. But I should like to tell you very definitely, Mr. Prosecutor, that during my term of office I transferred over 5 million German workers from the most widely different branches of German industry to the armament industry. Therefore, it was a task which dealt principally with German workers and their transfer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I was interested in something else: Why was Defendant Speer interested in your personal appointment as Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor? That is what I wanted to ascertain. Can you tell me anything in this respect?
SAUCKEL: I Cannot tell you why Reich Minister Speer was interested in my appointment. I have already told my defense counsel that I myself was surprised at the time.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel acquainted you with Document EC-68 during the session of May 29. This document deals with the treatment of foreign workers of Polish nationality. I shall not dwell upon the subject, since your defense counsel has already quoted the document in detail, and I will limit myself to your reply intended for your defense counsel, as it appears in the transcript of that session. I read from the transcript: "Sauckel: First of all, I should like to point out that this document is dated 6 March 1941-that is more than one year before I assumed office.... Since this document, Number 4, has been submitted to the Tribunal' I must add supplementary documents to my case which confirm that I automatically destroyed all such unnecessary directives.... In such a case I could not have issued orders of this description to any government office in the Reich." Do you remember these depositions given at the session of the 29th of May the current year?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: General, I am told that this is an incorrect translation. It was "revoked" and not "destroyed." You said "destroyed," did you not?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am reading from the Russian transcript and perhaps there are certain inaccuracies in it, but I do not object to replacing "destroy" by "revoke." The meaning remains the same.
SAUCKEL: May I ask for the context to be repeated? It is not quite clear.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, I do not want to revert to Document EC-68. All I want is to establish what you said in reply to your defense counsel in connection with this document. You do not contradict your testimony which I have just read into the record? Does it correspond to the statement you made here on the 29th of May?
SAUCKEL: No. But I do not understand what the term "destroyed" has to do with it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: We should not read "destroy," but should use the word "revoke."
SAUCKEL: That is possible.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: So you confirm the testimony which I have just read into the record from the transcript. Now, tell us, do you remember the living conditions you imposed on the Ukrainian women and girls from the occupied territories, on those who had been mobilized for work in German agriculture? I shall now hand you Document Number USSR-383. [The document was handed to the defendants]
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have the PS number?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, Sir; that is a USSR document. [Turning to the defendant.] There is an addendum, Number 2, to your directive dated 8 September 1942. This addendum is entitled, "Memorandum for housewives concerning the employment of domestic workers from the East in urban and rural households." Do you know this document? This memorandum? SAUCKEL Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now quote a few excerpts in order to describe the conditions which you imposed on those Ukrainian women and girls who had been sent to work on agricultural tasks in Germany. Please find Section B. "Registration with the Police, Identification, Supervision." Have you found that section?
SAUCKEL: No. not quite.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Section B. Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Page 4?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Section B. "Registration with the Police, Identification, Supervision," contains the following instructions: "The Eastern female worker is obliged to wear the identification badge 'Ost' on the right breast of each of her outer garments."
SAUCKEL: I cannot find it. I have not found it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You will find it later. That order is included there.
SAUCKEL: Yes; but, please, I must be able to follow you.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now Paragraph 4. It is entitled "Labor Conditions." It is written there: "Women domestic workers from the East employed in the Reich are under special working conditions. We shall see later on what these special conditions were. Please find Paragraph 9, Sentence 1, "Free Time." The opening sentence states: "No claim to free time exists."
SAUCKEL: Yes, but I must ask you to read on. It says exactly the same as in the case of the German household staff, who also. . .
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now read the whole of Paragraph 9 into the record.
THE PRESIDENT: General, I do not think you should interrupt him when he is making a legitimate explanation. You should wait until he has made his explanation, and then draw attention to anything in the rest of the document that you wish to. Now, what did you wish to say, Defendant?
SAUCKEL: I asked for a further part to be read. There is a sentence in which it is stated a weekly outing can nevertheless be granted. May I read the sentence once more: "Women domestic workers from the East may, as a matter of principle, only go outside the confines of the household when attending to household matters. However, on a probationary basis, as a reward, the opportunity may be given them once a week to remain outside the household for 3 hours without having work to do." The same also held good for German domestic workers at that time. Free time amounts to the same thing.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is written differently here. No free time was allowed them. It says: ".... as a reward, the opportunity may be given them to remain outside the household once a week 3 hours without having work to do. This outing must end before darkness falls, but by 2000 hours at the latest." So there is no mention here of a day off, but of 3 hours off. Now find Paragraph 10.
SAUCKEL: But I did not say that. Because of the blackout, this curfew applied also to German employees during the war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now find Paragraph 10: "Leave and return home." That is the heading of this particular passage. Have you found it? It is written: "For the time being no leave shall be granted. Women domestic workers from the East are recruited for an indefinite time."
SAUCKEL: I should like to add, in this connection...
THE PRESIDENT: General, I think you can pass on from this. You know-this is not a matter of very great importance.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, I should like Defendant Sauckel to explain the discrepancies which have arisen in his testimony with regard to Document EC-68, and with regard to what was written in his directive concerning the employment of Ukrainian women for domestic service in Germany. I wish to receive this reply in order to eliminate the discrepancies which have arisen.
SAUCKEL: I am in a position to answer that question very precisely.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes?
SAUCKEL: This directive was not composed by me alone. Quite a large number of paragraphs were introduced at that time by the Reichsfuehrer SS. Already as far back as the spring of 1943 I succeeded in having these paragraphs altered and the indefinite time of employment for the Eastern Workers was limited to 2 years. Furthermore, in a document which I believe my defense counsel will also submit to the Tribunal, it is proved that the removal of the restrictions applied to the Eastern Workers was the result of my endeavors. I tried to remove these restrictions in the very beginning, as I correctly stated in my first answer, so that the Eastern Workers stood on equal footing to other foreign workers and to the German workers. That was my aim and my conception of my duty as I performed it. I was particularly glad to do this for the Eastern Workers as they were the best workers we had in Germany.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I now go on to the next question. On 18 August 1942 you had a meeting with Defendant Frank in Krakow. I shall read out what has been written about this meeting in Frank's diary. That is Document Number USSR-223. In the diary for 1942, Volume III, Page 918, is written: - "I am happy to be able to inform you officially that we have so far transported more than 800,000 workers into the Reich. "A short time ago you applied for 140,000 more workers. "Over and above this figure of 140,000, however, you can next year count on a further number of workers from the Government General, for we shall employ the Police for recruiting purposes." Does that tally with the actual facts? Did such a conversation between you and Frank take place? Has it been correctly entered in his diary?
SAUCKEL: I cannot possibly confirm an entry which I have never seen before, and details of which I cannot possibly recollect. I therefore cannot say that all of it is correct. Those were future possibilities visualized by Herr Frank. I can, however, on the strength of the documents before me, say that the employment of Polish civilian workers...
THE PRESIDENT: If you do not remember, why can you not say so and stop?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But did he speak to you about resorting to police methods in the recruitment of manpower, or did he not mention it? Do you remember this, or do you not?
SAUCKEL: I cannot possibly remember this communication which took place in 1942. Conditions at that time were so utterly different.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In his activities, where the recruiting of manpower was concerned, did Defendant Funk resort to police measures or not? Do you know about it?
SAUCKEL: I cannot, from my own knowledge, tell you whether the Governor General solved this problem by the employment of police forces or not. Please ask him himself.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am submitting a document to the Tribunal, Document Number USSR-469, which describes the methods of labor recruitment as applied in the territory of Poland. This document is an official directive, printed by the Kreishauptmann of the Minsk and Warsaw district. It is dated 2 February 1943. This directive was handed to Kazimir Navak, who was born on the 6 May 1926, and resided in Dyzin in the Kolbey community. It reads: "Pursuant to the compulsory service decree dated 13 May 1942 Verordnungsblatt, GO, Page 255, I direct you to labor service in the Reich." The following stands at the bottom of this page: "In case of insubordination..."
THE PRESIDENT: Is this a document you are putting in evidence now for the first time?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is being presented for the first time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we have not got the document. Have you any copies of it?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, it should have been handed to you. The document, Mr. President, is not included in the document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you offering it now for the first time, or is it already in evidence? Did you not hear that?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, I hear you, Mr. President. This document is being presented for the first time.
THE PRESIDENT: We do not seem to have it anyhow. I mean, I have not a copy of it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The original document has just been handed to the defendant, and he has got it. The copies in German were handed to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: I have it now in German.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is stated at the bottom of this decree: "Should you disobey this compulsory service decree, the members of your family (parents, wife, brothers, sisters, and children) will be placed in a punitive camp and will be liberated only after you have presented yourself. Moreover, I reserve for myself the right to confiscate your personal and real property as well as the personal and real property of the members of your family. Moreover you, in accordance with Paragraph 5 of the above-mentioned decree, will be punished with confinement in prison, or with penal servitude, or with internment in a concentration camp. "Kreishauptmann Dr. Bittrich." Did you know anything about the application of such methods for the recruitment of manpower in the territory of Poland and of the existence of Defendant Frank's decrees?
SAUCKEL: I can openly and clearly answer that the threat of such penalties in this form was completely unknown to me and that I would never have mentioned it. If I had learned of it, I would have stopped it immediately. I must, however, beg permission to tell the Tribunal that this appendix at the end of the document, regarded as coming from my office, is incorrect, and was not sanctioned by me. The first paragraph of this document reads correctly and I request permission to quote it. It is in keeping with German labor legislation and runs: "Pursuant to the compulsory service decree, Verordnungsblatt, GO, Page 255, dated 13 May 1942, I direct you to labor service in the Reich. "Your employment in the Reich will be under properly regulated working conditions and your wages will be paid according to a regular scale. Wage savings can be transmitted regularly by you to your home. Close relatives, to whose support you have hitherto been substantially contributing, may apply to the labor office for special allowances."
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Was that written at the bottom of the decree?
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think we need the details.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I want to remind you now of certain directives which were issued with regard to the so-called recruitment of labor, directives which were issued by your government organizations in Germany, and personally by yourself in your own famous program. The document is Document Number USSR-365, and you wrote the following...
SAUCKEL: I have not got it here.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You will be helped to find it. Have you been shown the passage which I am now going to read into the record?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is written there: "It is therefore unavoidably necessary to exhaust completely the manpower reserves now available in the conquered Soviet territories. If it is not possible to obtain required workers on a voluntary basis then steps must be taken immediately to conscript them or bring in compulsion." Did you issue these instructions?
SAUCKEL: I have not found these passages so far. They have not been pointed out to me properly.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You will at once be shown the passage again. Did you ever issue these instructions?
SAUCKEL: I myself was not able to issue orders for compulsory service in the occupied territories, that had to be done by the district authorities. But by compulsion I did not understand that penalties would be threatened to the extent as stated in that one document signed by Bittrich, but that they would be in keeping with German regulations. That is a very substantial difference.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Was that which I have just read out to you included in your program or not?
SAUCKEL: It is in my program-but I have expressly stated that I was directed to do that by the E Fuehr.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Let us proceed. In the letter of 3 October 1942 addressed to Gauleiter Meyer you wrote-this document, Number 017-PS will be handed to you in a moment. Please follow me when I read: "I do not underestimate the difficulties connected with the execution of the new task, but I am convinced that with the ruthless employment of all means"-I should like to underline that 'all means'-"and with the absolute devotion of all concerned, the new quota can be filled by the date fixed." Did you write that?
SAUCKEL: I wrote that, yes. But I want you to let me give you an explicit explanation: In all my directives I invariably demanded the most considerate treatment for the workers; that has already been proved in the Trial. When I refer here to the ruthless use of all means, I only mean the ruthless use of all technical means and propaganda, because I had been told from different sources that such means were not available there to a sufficient degree. This is an explanation of what led up to this letter.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: On 31 March 1942 you addressed a letter to the Reich commissioners. This letter will be presented to you in a few minutes. It is Document Number USSR-137. Here you wrote as follows: "I request that the recruitment, for which you together with the commissioners are responsible to me, be speeded up on your part by adequate measures, if necessary by the application of compulsory labor in the severest form, so that the recruitment figures may be trebled in the shortest possible time." Did you issue this directive?
SAUCKEL: That is my directive and I issued it. By the severest use of compulsory labor I meant no wicked or criminal measures, but rather, if it was necessary that it should be used, it was with reference to the number, the number to be made up.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now quote a few excerpts from the documents of other people. I shall begin by reading an excerpt from a speech by Defendant Rosenberg, Document Number USSR-170, which was delivered at the conference of the German Labor Front in November 1942. I shall quote a brief excerpt from this speech: ". . . millions of Russians, trembling with fright, react in the same way..."
SAUCKEL: I have not found it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You will be helped in one moment. THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session
DR. NELTE: I should like to draw the Tribunal's attention to the following fact: General Alexandrov this morning referred to Document Number 744-PS. First of all a document was given me which was described as a German translation. That translation contains things which are obviously impossible.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, you said 744?
DR. NELTE: 744-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: I haven't got any note that he referred to that document. I don't know whether he-did you refer to 744-PS this morning, General Alexandrov?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I referred this morning to the document in question. It was a directive of the Defendant Keitel, dated 8 July 1943, referring to the employment of prisoners of war in the mining industry.
DR. NELTE: Then the Russian Prosecution presented me with the original, that is the photostatic copy of a letter dated 8 July 1943, signed by Keitel. I now have two German versions before me. Not only do they differ greatly as far as the contents are concerned, but also the translation contains something additional which is not in the original, namely that to the heading of the letter, "Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht," is added "Army General Staff." I do not want to delay you by reading the other incorrect translations, but I must assume that you have before you the texts in the foreign languages, which, as I see from the translation back into German, are incorrect. As this document, the original, is the evidence and is not being objected to, I should like to ask you to order that the translations in the foreign languages, which you have before you, be checked in order to find out to what extent they differ from the original document.
THE PRESIDENT: Had the document been put in evidence before? Had it been offered in evidence? Was it an exhibit?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: 744-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that does not mean that it has been put in evidence. That only means that it is identified in that way. Had it been offered in evidence before?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not know the U.S.A. number of this document, but according to the data at my disposal I am able to state that it was submitted in evidence to the Tribunal. In the German copy, presented in the German language, it is written that the German translation was made on 26 November 1945 by Second Lieutenant of the U. S. Infantry, Fred Niebergall. As Dr. Nelte has discovered certain inaccuracies in the translation, I consider that the Translation Division should be asked to check these divergencies.
DR. NELTE: I am convinced, Mr. President . . .
THE PRESIDENT: I think that is the best thing to do, to have it checked by the Translation Division. We will order that that shall be done at once.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: [Turning to the defendant.] The transcript of Defendant Rosenberg's speech will be handed over to you immediately. I shall limit myself to a very short excerpt from this transcript. Please read after me: "Part of them imagine that the road to Germany is somewhat similar to the road to Siberia." And further: "I know that if 1.5, million people are brought here, they cannot be given the best accommodations. The fact that thousands of people are badly housed or badly treated is obvious. It is not worth while worrying about that. However, this is a very reasonable question, and I believe that Gauleiter Sauckel has already discussed it, or will do so. These people from the East are being brought to Germany in order to work and to endeavor to reach as high a level of production as possible. This is quite a reasonable transaction. In order to reach this production capacity one should naturally not bring them over three-quarters frozen or let them stand for 10 hours. One must rather give them enough to eat that they will have reserve strength." Does Defendant Rosenberg correctly describe the conditions in which the workers you brought from the occupied territories found themselves, or do you consider that Defendant Rosenberg has not described them correctly?