dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
COL. AMEN: Defendant, will you please try to confine yourself to answering my questions "yes" or "no" whenever possible, and making only a brief explanation, because we will come to all these other things in due time. Will you try to do that?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, very well.
COL. AMEN: Did you have any personal knowledge or anything personal to do with any of the atrocities which occurred in concentration camps during the war?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: And therefore you assume no responsibility before this Tribunal for any such atrocities? Is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, I do not assume any responsibility in that regard.
COL. AMEN: And, in that connection, such testimony as has been given here, by Hollriegel for example, to the effect that you witnessed executions at Mauthausen, you deny? Is that correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: I was already told yesterday of the testimony of Hollriegel. I consider the statement that I ever saw a gas chamber, either in operation or at any other time, wrong and incorrect.
COL. AMEN: Very good. You had no personal knowledge of and did nothing personal about the program for the extermination of Jews; is that correct-except to oppose them?
KALTENBRUNNER: No-except that I was against it. From the moment I knew of this as facts and had convinced myself of it, I raised objections with Hitler and Himmler, and the final result was that they were stopped.
COL. AMEN: And therefore you assume no responsibility for anything done in connection with the program for the extermination of the Jews, right?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And does the same thing apply to the program for forced labor?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And the same thing applies, does it not, to the razing of the Warsaw Ghetto?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And the same thing applies to the execution of 50 fliers in connection with Stalag Luft III?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And the same thing applies to the various orders with respect to the killing of enemy fliers, correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And, as a matters of fact, you made all these same denials in the course of your interrogations before this Trial, correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And you still make them today?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. But as far as the preliminary interrogations are concerned, may I make a' statement again in the course of the crossexamination?
COL. AMEN: Well, when we come to the proper place let us know. Is it or is it not a fact that the Gestapo, Amt IV, RSHA, prepared reports on concentration camps which were submitted to you for signature and then passed on to Himmler?
KALTENBRUNNER: No. I do not recall any such reports. The normal channel was that Muller reported to Himmler directly.
COL. AMEN: Do you likewise deny . . .
KALTENBRUNNER: I would like to add that of course certain matters existed of which I had to be informed for several reasons, for instance the great domestic political event, the plot of 20 July 1944 of course; I was informed in such cases, not through Amt IV but through...
COL. AMEN: I am speaking of the general course of activity and not of any special exceptions, you understand.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: You likewise deny that Muller, as chief of Amt IV, always conferred with you with respect to any important documents?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I not only deny it but the facts speak against it. He had direct authority from Himmler. He had no reason to discuss this matter with me beforehand.
COL. AMEN: I ask that the defendant be shown a document, L50, which will become Exhibit Number USA-793. [The document was submitted to the defendant.]
THE PRESIDENT: Hasn't this been put in before?
COL. AMEN: No, Your Lordship, I am told it has not. [Turning to the defendant.] By the way, were you acquainted with Kurt Lindow, who makes this affidavit dated 2 August 1945?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: Although he was an official in the RSHA until 1944? Let us read together Paragraphs 2 and 4 only. I won't take the time of the Tribunal to read Paragraphs 1 and 3. 2, you will note, reads as follows: "On the basis of general experience as well as individual cases I can confirm that the Gestapo (Amt IV) wrote reports about practices of the administrative authorities in the concentration camps and that these were given by the Chief of Amt IV to the Chief of the Security Police who submitted them for signature to Reichsfuehrer Himmler."
KALTENBRUNNER: May I reply to that immediately? It might be important perhaps to read Paragraph 1, too.
COL. AMEN: Please make it as brief as you can.
KALTENBRUNNER: Paragraph 1 seems to be important to read, for in Paragraph 1 it is said that the witness Lindow, from 1938 until 1940, was in the section in which such reports were written. From 1940 to 1941 he was in counterespionage; in 1942 and 1943 he was in the section for combating of Communism; and later he was in the section for educational matters. I believe, therefore, that his testimony in Paragraph 2-that he knew of the custom of the State Police, that is that via the Chief of Department IV, through the Chief of the Security Police, reports were sent to Himmler about happenings in concentration camps-holds true only for the period 1938 to 1940. Judging from his own testimony, he has no personal experience about the later periods.
COL. AMEN: Well, in other words he is not telling. the truth as it was at the time when you were active in RSHA; correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: I have not read anything about that. He maintains that...
COL. AMEN: I am calling your attention to two paragraphs. We have already covered 2, and now we will read 4: "To my knowledge no chief of office or any of the officials of the RSHA authorized to sign had the right to sign in any fundamental affairs of particular political significance without consent of the Chief of the Security Police, not even during his temporary absence. From my own experience I can furthermore declare that particularly the Chief of Office IV, Muller, was very cautious in signing documents concerning questions of a general nature of possibly greater importance, and that he put aside documents of such nature in most cases for the return of the Chief of the Security Police, whereby, alas, often much time was lost."-Signed-"Kurt Lindow."
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes. I would like to make two statements: First, this assertion is completely contrary to the testimony of several witnesses who spoke of the extraordinary authority and independence exercised by Muller and testified to it. Secondly, the description of Lindow is applicable to that period of time in which Heydrich was active, that is, the time between 1938 and 1940, in which Lindow could obtain experience. But this does not apply to the period in which Himmler gave direct orders to Muller. That was Himmler's prerogative, for my tasks were of such scope that it was almost impossible for one man to handle the work that I did.
COL. AMEN: I don't want to spend too much time 'on it now, Defendant, but the paragraphs which I read you conform to the testimony of Ohlendorf before this Tribunal, do they not?
KALTENBRUNNER: The testimony as given by Ohlendorf was shown to me yesterday by my counsel. But also the testimony as given by Ohlendorf, I believe, leads us. clearly to see that any executive order, even for protective custody-and he used the term "down to the last washerwoman"-needed the direct consent of Himmler, who could delegate this authority only to Muller. He did add, however, that he did not know whether my authority suffered any such restrictions and whether, perhaps, I might not have had such powers, but he could not state that with certainty. And the rest of his testimony contradicts the assumption that I had such broad authority.
COL. AMEN: We all know what Ohlendorf's testimony was. I merely want to ask you if you accept the testimony of Ohlendorf. You told us in the course of interrogations that you had the most contact with Ohlendorf and that you would trust him to tell the truth before any of your other associates; is that not correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: I do not recall the last statement. The first statement, that he was one of my chief collaborators, is justified and is proved by the fact that he was chief of the Intelligence within Germany, which became a part of my Intelligence Service. All domestic political reports, reports about all German spheres of life, I received mostly from this Amt III, in addition to the news from the other departments which I organized myself.
COL. AMEN: Shortly after Easter 1934 you were under arrest in the Kaisersteinbruch Detention Camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: What year did you say, please?
COL. AMEN: 1934.
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, from 14 January until the beginning of May.
COL. AMEN: Did you ever, in company with other SS functionaries, make an inspection of the Mauthausen Camp?
KALTENBRUNNER: With other SS officials, no. To my recollection I went there alone and had to report there to Himmler, who, as I stated yesterday, was conducting an inspection tour through southern Germany.
COL. AMEN: And you went only in the quarry? Right?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Were you acquainted with Karwinsky, the State Secretary in the Dollfuss and Schuschnigg Cabinets from September 1933 to October 1935-Karwinsky?
KALTENBRUNNER: I saw Karwinsky once. I believe he visited us in the Kaisersteinbruch Detention Camp at that time during our hunger strike. Otherwise I never saw him. It might be that one of his representatives visited us. That I cannot say.
COL. AMEN: I ask that the defendant be shown Document Number 3843-PS, which will be Exhibit Number USA-794. I would like to say to the Tribunal that there is rather objectionable language in this exhibit but I do feel that in view of the charges against the defendant, I do feel it is my duty to read it nonetheless. [The document was submitted to the defendant.] If you will turn to Page 3, defendant.
KALTENBRUNNER: On Page 3 there are just a few lines. May I read the entire document first, please?
COL. AMEN: It would take much too much time, Defendant. I am only interested in the paragraph which is on Page 3 of the English text, and commences, `'Shortly after Easter..." Do you have it?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: "Shortly after Easter 1934 I received the news that the prisoners in the Kaisersteinbruch Detention Camp had gone on hunger strike. Thereupon I went there myself, in order to inform myself about the situation. While comparative calm and discipline prevailed in most of the barracks, one barrack was very disorderly. I noticed that one tall man seemed to be the obvious leader of the resistance. This was Kaltenbrunner, at that time a candidate for attorney-at-law, who was under arrest because of his illegal activity in Upper Austria. While all the other barracks gave up their hunger strike after a talk which I had with representatives of the prisoners, the barracks under Kaltenbrunner persisted in the strike. "I saw Kaltenbrunner again in the Mauthausen Camp, when I was severely ill and lying on rotten straw with several hundred other seriously ill persons, many of them dying. The prisoners, suffering from hunger oedemata and from the most serious intestinal sicknesses, were lying in unheated barracks in the dead of winter. The most primitive sanitary facilities were lacking. The toilets and the washrooms were unusable for months. The severely ill persons had to relieve themselves in little marmalade buckets. The soiled straw was not renewed for weeks, so that a stinking liquid was formed, in which worms and maggots crawled around. There was no medical attendance or medicines. Conditions were such that 10 to 20 persons died every night. Kaltenbrunner walked through the barracks with a brilliant suite of high SS functionaries, saw everything, must have seen everything. We were under the illusion that these inhuman conditions would now be changed, but they apparently met with Kaltenbrunner's approval for nothing happened thereafter." Is that true or false, Defendant?
KALTENBRUNNER: I can refute this document, evidently presented in order to surprise me, in every point.
COL. AMEN: I ask you-first, I ask you to state whether it is true or false?
KALTENBRUNNER: It is not true and I can refute each detail.
COL. AMEN: Make it as brief as possible.
KALTENBRUNNER: It is not possible to me to take less time in refuting it, Mr. Prosecutor, than you took in reading it. I have to refute each word which is incriminating me. Here Karwinsky maintains . . .
COL. AMEN: Just a moment. Perhaps you will wait until I have read to you two more exhibits I have along the same line. Then perhaps you can make your explanation of all three at the same time. Is that satisfactory to you?
KALTENBRUNNER: As you wish.
COL. AMEN: I ask that the defendant be shown Document Number 3845-PS, which will become Exhibit Number USA-795. [The document was handed to the defendant.] You have already denied, I believe, having visited or going through the crematorium at Mauthausen; correct?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Do you know Tiefenbacher, Albert Tiefenbacher?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: If you have the document you will note that he was at Mauthausen Concentration Camp from 1938 until 1 May 1945 and that he was employed in the crematorium at Mauthausen for 3 years as carrier of dead bodies. You note that?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Now, passing to the lower half of the first page, you will find the question: "Do you remember Eigruber? "Answer: Eigruber and Kaltenbrunner were from Linz. "Question: Did you ever see them in Mauthausen? "Answer: I saw Kaltenbrunner very often. "Question: How many times? "Answer: He came from time to time and went through the crematorium. "Question: About how many times? "Answer: Three or four times. "Question: On any occasion when he came through, did you hear him say anything to anybody? "Answer: When Kaltenbrunner arrived most prisoners had to disappear. Only certain people were introduced to him." Is that true or false?
KALTENBRUNNER: That is completely incorrect.
COL. AMEN: Now I will show you the third document and then you can make a brief explanation. I ask that the defendant be shown Document Number 3846-PS which will become Exhibit Number USA-796. [The document was handed to the defendant.] I might ask you, Witness, do you remember ever having witnessed a demonstration of three different kinds of executions at Mauthausen at the same time? Three different kinds of execution?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, that is not true.
COL. AMEN: Are you acquainted with Johann Kanduth who makes this affidavit?
KALTENBRUNNER: No.
COL. AMEN: You will note, from the affidavit, that he lived in Linz; that he was an inmate of the concentration camp at Mauthausen from 21 March 1939 until 5 May 1945; that besides the work in the kitchen he also worked in the crematorium from 9 May, and he worked the heating for the cremation of the bodies. Now, if you will turn to the second page, at the top: "Question: Have you ever seen Kaltenbrunner at Mauthausen on a visit at any time? "Answer: Yes. "Question: Do you remember when it was? "Answer: In 1942 and 1943. "Question: Can you give it more exactly, maybe the month? "Answer: I do not know the date. "Question: Do you remember only this one visit in the year 1942 or 1943? "Answer: I remember that Kaltenbrunner was there three times. "Question: What year? "Answer: Between 1942 and 1943. "Question: Tell us, in short, what did you think about these visits of Kaltenbrunner which you described? That is, what did you see, what did you do, and when did you see that he was or was not present at such executions? "Answer: Kaltenbrunner was accompanied by Eigruber, Schulz, Ziereis, Bachmeyer, Streit-vieser, and some other people. Kaltenbrunner went laughing into the gas chamber. Then the people were brought from the bunker to be executed, and then all three kinds of executions: hanging, shooting in the back of the neck and gassing, were demonstrated. After the dust had disappeared we had to take away the bodies. "Question: When did you see the three different kinds of executions? Were these just demonstrations or regular executions? "Answer: I do not know if they were regular executions, or just demonstrations. During these executions, besides Kaltenbrunner, the bunker leaders, Hauptscharfuehrer Seidel and Duessen, were also present. The last named then led the people downstairs. "Question: Do you know whether these executions were announced for this day or if they were just demonstrations or if the executions were staged just for pleasure of the visitors? "Answer: Yes, these executions were announced for this day. "Question: How do you know that they were set for this day?
COL. AMEN: Did somebody tell you about these announced executions? "Answer: Hauptscharfuehrer Roth, the leader of the crematorium, always had me called to his room and said to me, 'Kaltenbrunner will come today and we have to prepare everything for the execution in his presence.' Then we were obliged to heat and to clean the stoves."
KALTENBRUNNER: May I answer?
COL. AMEN: Is that true or false, Defendant?
KALTENBRUNNER: Under my oath, I wish to state solemnly that not a single word of these statements is true. I might start with the first document.
COL. AMEN: Could you note, Defendant, that none of these affidavits were taken in Nuremberg, but that they all appeared to have been taken outside of Nuremberg in connection with an entirely different proceeding or investigation. Did you note that?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, but it is irrelevant as far as the testimony itself is concerned. May I now start to talk about this document?
COL. AMEN: Yes, go ahead.
KALTENBRUNNER: The Witness Karwinsky states having seen me in the year 1934 in connection with the hunger strike in the Kaisersteinbruch Detention Camp. He singles out the barracks in which disorders were taking place at which a tall man, meaning myself, was present. According to him, I was interned there because of my illegal activity in Austria. As far as these statements are concerned, up to now, they are completely wrong. First of all, I was not interned there because of National Socialist activities. The note of imprisonment we had received in writing, which must have been known to Herr Karwinsky, who was then Austrian State Secretary for Security, stated literally that we were arrested to prevent us from performing National Socialist activities. So there was no prohibited activity at this time charged against me. Then, further, when Karwinsky came, the hunger strike was in its ninth day. We had not...
COL. AMEN: May I interrupt you just a moment, Defendant. I am perfectly satisfied if you testify that these statements are false. If you are satisfied, I am perfectly satisfied with that answer. I do not need an explanation of all of these paragraphs when we have no way of Verifying what you say.
KALTENBRUNNER: Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot be satisfied if the High Tribunal and the whole world is presented with testimony and documents which are pages long and which you contend are the truth, and which incriminate me in the gravest manner. I must certainly have the opportunity to answer with more than "yes" or '`no." I simply cannot just like some callous criminal only. ..
THE PRESIDENT: You'd better let him go on. We do not want to argue about it. Go on, make your comments on the document.
KALTENBRUNNER: Karwinsky arrived on the eighth day of the hunger strike. He did not come into our barracks, but we were brought on stretchers into the administrative building of this Austrian detention camp. None of us were even able to walk any more. And for this fact, there are a great many more witnesses-490 internees who had been confined in this camp with me. Karwinsky talked with us in this administration building and stated that if the hunger strike were to stop the Government would be willing to consider a dismissal of all internees. We had been interned without having committed any offense at all, and prior to that the Government had already given their promise three times to release us but had never kept these promises. Therefore, we requested a written statement from Karwinsky, either signed by him or signed by the Federal Chancellor. We wanted this statement so that we could believe the promise, then we would immediately end the strike. He refused. The hunger strike went on and we were taken to a hospital in Henna. On the 11th day, the hunger strike stopped because even the giving of water was prohibited on that day. These were the facts, and not that we created disorder.
THE PRESIDENT: When I said you could make your comments, I did not mean you could go on giving the details of the hunger strike.
KALTENBRUNNER: My Lord, I just wanted to point out that what has been testified by the witness is incorrect-that I was the leader in the resistance and that I was still in my barracks. I had to be carried on a stretcher all through the camp; none of us could walk any more at that time. Point 2; I talked with the cousin of Karwinsky again and again later on. His cousin was in charge of the social insurance department at Linz. He told me that his cousin, that is the witness mentioned here, never had been at Mauthausen, that he was at Dachau from the first day of his detention. There is a difference whether it is Mauthausen or Dachau, for he was sent there as a former member of the Austrian Government who had committed crimes against National Socialists. He was arrested by the RSHA, which already existed, I believe by Heydrich in Berlin, and not by some Austrian office. I also never saw this man afterwards. I also never visited Dachau. It should, therefore, be easy to ascertain whether this man was in Dachau from the beginning of his detention or in Mauthausen. If he was in Dachau, as I am charging, then everything is a lie. If he were in Mauthausen, it must be first proved whether he does not confuse me with another man. This first proof, whether he has erred in the person, is not up to me: If the Prosecution endeavor to find out whether he was in Dachau from the very beginning-for I know he was in Dachau; he was arrested in Innsbruck when trying to escape to Switzerland, his cousin had let me know that when asking me to intervene on his behalf. I could not intervene because the man was transported to Dachau directly via Innsbruck-Mittenwald. Thus, he was completely out of my sphere and power as the then State Secretary for Security of the Austrian Government.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I suppose the defendant wants to say something about these other documents. He had answered the one, had he not?
COL. AMEN: I do not know whether he had finished, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: [Turning to the defendant.] Had you finished with the affidavit or the statement of Karwinsky?
KALTENBRUNNER: Your Lordship, not quite.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on then.
KALTENBRUNNER: I have no longer the document before me and I request that it be given back to me. May I please ask you to return the document to me?
COL. AMEN: Yes, it is coming. [The document was submitted to the defendant.]