dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
COL. AMEN: I do not know that they were particularly close friends or that Eichmann always had direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they conferred frequently. "I do not know the details about their official relationship. I do not know whether Kaltenbrunner also had conferences concerning the program of extermination of Jews in Hungary during his stays in Hungary in the spring of 1944. Winkelmann, the former Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary, must know exactly about that, since, according to my knowledge, he, together with Kaltenbrunner, visited persons in the Hungarian Government. "4) With respect to question Number 6: "a) Is it not known to you that Muller, Chief of the Gestapo, always conferred with Kaltenbrunner on matters of importance relating to the functions of his office-particularly with respect to executions of special inmates? "b) Did you know that Kaltenbrunner was the Higher SS and Police Leader and State Secretary for Security in Austria after the Anschluss until his appointment as Chief of the RSHA, a period of 5 years, during which time his attention was devoted exclusively to police and security matters? "c) What is the basis of your statement that the intelligence service took up the main part of Kaltenbrunner's attention and all his interest? "With respect to 4a): Details concerning the official relationship between Muller and Kaltenbrunner are not known to me. However, I could note on several occasions that Muller was with Kaltenbrunner to report about the work of his department. "With respect to 4b): Kaltenbrunner was not exclusively occupied with police and security matters during his activity as Higher SS and Police Leader in Austria or as State Secretary for Security respectively. Without a doubt he had political interests besides, since the Higher SS and Police Leaders were the representatives of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in all matters. "With respect to 4c): I could note that by virtue of my official relationship with him.
COL. AMEN: Members of other departments also frequently expressed themselves in the direction that he favored and furthered Amt III, and particularly Amt VI and the Mil (Military Amt). "5) With respect to question Number 7: Answer the following: "a) What did you personally have to do with concentration camps and what, therefore, is the basis for your answer to this question? "b) Did you know that all orders for commitments to, releases from, and executions in concentration camps came from the RSHA? "c) Did you know that the RSHA gave direct orders to commandants of concentration camps? State such orders of which you have personal knowledge. "d) What are the atrocities committed in concentration camps to which you refer in your answer to this question, and when and in what manner did you acquire knowledge that atrocities were committed in concentration camps? "With respect to 5a): Personally, I had nothing at all to do with concentration camps. However, I liberated a number of persons from concentration camps and therefore know the difficulties that were made by the concentration camp staffs who always called attention to orders of the WVHA of the SS in such cases since the inmates were needed for the armament industry. "With respect to fib): It is known to me that orders for commitments into concentration camps and discharges therefrom came from the RSHA. I did not know that all such orders came from the RSHA. I have no knowledge of orders for executions by the RSHA. "With respect to 5c): I do not know any details and do not know personally any orders concerning this. In the cases in which I intervened for discharges I addressed myself either to Kaltenbrunner directly or to Amt IV. When the processing was of long duration, I received the answer several times from officials of Amt IV that difficulties had come about through the WVHA of the SS. "With respect to 5d): When Hungary was occupied by German troops in March 1944, several of my Hungarian acquaintances went to concentration camps.
COL. AMEN: After I had achieved their liberation, they told me of bad treatment and atrocities in the Mauthausen Concentration Camp. At that time, I sent an official communication concerning this to the director of the Linz Gestapo Office, with the request to inquire into this matter with the concentration camp commandant Ziereis. Ziereis, however, denied this, as I was informed in the reply. In August 1944 Eichmann told me that there were extermination camps (Ternichtungslager) besides concentration camps. "6) With respect to question Number 9: What is the basis for your opinion that Kaltenbrunner opposed Hitler and Himmler on the program for the physical extermination of European Jewry? "With respect to 6): Kaltenbrunner told me after his conference with representatives of the International Red Cross in March 1945 that he was against Hitler's and Himmler's program on the question of the extermination of the European Jews. In my response to Question 9, that Kaltenbrunner had given no orders for killing of Jews, the words 'according to my knowledge' are missing. ~ "7) With respect to question Number 11: Who was the American whom you told Kaltenbrunner that you had contacted in a neutral country in 1943? Did Kaltenbrunner agree to travel to Switzerland with you to meet a representative of the Allied Powers with whom you were in touch through the Austrian Resistance Movement; and, if so, whom? "With respect to 7): The American liaison man in 1943 was a member of the United States Legation in Lisbon. I am no longer familiar with his name. The connection via the Austrian Resistance Movement with an American organization in Switzerland existed only from the beginning of fall 1944. Kaltenbrunner agreed to travel there with me about 20 April 1945. "8) With respect to question Number 12: On what date did Kaltenbrunner order the commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to approaching troops? At whose insistence did Kaltenbrunner issue this order, and for what reason?
COL. AMEN: "With respect to 8): I cannot state the exact date of Kaltenbrunner's order to the commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to approaching troops. It should have been during the last days of April 1945. It is not known to me at whose insistence and for which reason he gave this order; possibly this was connected with his discussions with SS Standartenfuehrer Becher whom I met with him at the time. "The above statements are true; I made this declaration voluntarily and without compulsion..."-et cetera-"Dr. Wilhelm Hottl."
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do the High Tribunal wish the defendant to state his position or reply to these two documents?
KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I request that I may do so right away.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then please give us your views first on the Mildner document. I shall call your attention, perhaps, to question Number 2 which seems relevant to me. It says: "Is it not true that. . tin 1942 and again in 1943, pursuant to orders by Gruppenfuehrer Muller, the Commandant of Auschwitz showed you the extermination installations. . . ?" It would seem from this that the Chief of Amt IV knew about these matters.
KALTENBRUNNER: Dr. Kauffmann, may I interrupt you. As far as I could notice in the last sessions a procedure of so called surprise affidavits is being employed against me. This surprise affidavit is applied for the first time in my case. In spite of that I am glad and grateful, even without having had the opportunity to see this affidavit before, to express my views on the whole and on each point of this affidavit. As to Dr. Mildner-question Number 1: He is asked about his position which he held in the Security Service. He enumerated the positions which he held from 1939 to 1944. During the time I was in of lice he served as an inspector of the Sipo and the SD in Kassel, as a deputy in Amt IV, as a deputy inspector in Vienna in 1944, and as a commander of the Sipo in Vienna also in 1944. He said, "All of these appointments after January 1943 were made by Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the Security Police and the SD." That is incorrect. I never appointed anybody to high positions such as these held by Mildner. Were Mildner asked about this before this Tribunal, he would have to confirm that. He was apparently not questioned on that by the Prosecution. In case of an appointment of an official for the Security Police and the SD I was simply asked and notified in each case of such an appointment of a functionary of the Security Police and SD, because as an inspector of the SD and of the Security Police he had to have in this capacity a strong intelligence section, that is, a subdivision of Amt III and IV which were at my disposal as far as intelligence was concerned, so that as Chief of the intelligence service I had to know who was inspector of a subdivision in Vienna, Kassel, or in Copenhagen. Later he also had to have my intelligence orders for his groups. That was the only reason why I had to be notified of such appointments. It was not within my competence to appoint any official of the Sipo; that is a definite misrepresentation arising from this affidavit of Dr. Mildner.
KALTENBRUNNER: O In reply to Question 2, if it is said that in his positions in Chemnitz and Katowice, in the year 1939 and 1941, he had to transport prisoners to Auschwitz for imprisonment and execution, then, in the first place, this falls into the period before I had assumed office, and, secondly, this was purely an executive measure of those agencies of which I was never in charge and never took over. He therefore can never have acted here as my deputy. As to question Number 3, here the Prosecution accuses him: ". . . That the Gestapo 'SS Standgericht' frequently met in Auschwitz and you sometimes attended the trial of prisoners;" -in other words that he attended the executions-"that in 1942 and again in 1943, pursuant to orders by Gruppenfuehrer Muller. . . the Commandant of Auschwitz showed you"-that is Mildner-"the extermination installations; that you were acquainted with the extermination installations at Auschwitz since you had to send Jews from your territory to Auschwitz for execution." In my opinion, I could perhaps only be incriminated on one point. The question is this: "Did Mildner once, in the year 1943, see such installations or did he attend the shootings?" First of all, the Prosecution did not show whether this "one time" took place before or after I assumed office.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Will you please be a little briefer and more to the point.
KALTENBRUNNER: Excuse me, Doctor, but I have to be able to refute every single word.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we do not want the witness to argue upon this document. If he has anything to say about the facts, then he can do it, but not argue on it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that is my opinion, also. [Turning to the defendant.] I am asking you-an especially important and incriminating point, it seems to me, is question Number 3; explain if you will, I read: "...did all orders for arrest..."-et cetera-"individual executions from the RSHA"; and then: "Was the regular channel from Himmler through Kaltenbrunner to Muller, and then to the concentration camp commandant?" And then the answer, "yes." Please answer briefly.
KALTENBRUNNER: I have already explained today that the authority and power to order executions rested only to a small extent with the Minister of Justice, and with Himmler. Nobody else in the entire Reich had the possibility or the authority to order that. Further, despite-the official channels-Himmler, Kaltenbrunner, Muller-such an order from Himmler was never forwarded to me; these orders must have gone from Himmler to Muller. To put this question to Mildner is wrong for the single reason that the man was not with me and cannot know whether I ever received such an order from Himmler. It is only a conclusion which he draws from the normal organizational setup.
DR. KAUFFMANN: That is a matter for the Defense later on; you need not talk about that.
THE PRESIDENT: You are not looking at the words. What he is asked is, "Was the regular channel...?" That is the question. What is the regular channel for orders from Himmler to you and Muller?
KALTENBRUNNER: Your Lordship, I have already explained the question how Himmler himself ruled on the competencies. Just think of June 1942, of Heydrich's death. From that day on-it is a written order and was announced publicly-Himmler took charge of the entire RSHA and assumed all the duties which had been Heydrich's. In January 1943 I was appointed Chief of the RSHA, after it had been announced that the executive power and competence of the State Police and Criminal Police remain with Himmler, no change was to be made, and the Chiefs of Amt IV and V, Muller and Nebe, would continue to be directly under Himmler. For that reason the organizational scheme as it existed at the time of Heydrich was no longer applicable for Amt IV and V when I joined the staff.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, Question 3a: There it says, "Was Dr. Kaltenbrunner acquainted with conditions in the concentration camps?" Here also it is not explained just what is meant by "conditions" in concentration camps, but it is most likely to be interpreted that those conditions which have been attested by witnesses are meant. The witness said, "Yes."
KALTENBRUNNER: Dr. Kauffmann, you are overlooking a very important sentence, the last one, on Question Number 3. Here the Prosecution ask: "Did the WVHA have supervision of all concentration camps for administration, the utilization of labor, and maintenance of discipline?" This sentence is tremendously important for the following reasons: The Prosecution endeavor to shift the entire guilt for the destruction of human life from the WVHA to the RSHA, and, if the High Tribunal want to find the truth...
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. This is again a long argumentative speech. The only question which arises, it seems to me, upon this question 3a, is: Did a conference take place between Kaltenbrunner, Pohl, and the chief of the concentration camps? If he says that they did not, then that is an answer that he makes to the affidavit; that is the only question of fact.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that was not the question; I am of the same opinion. [Turning to the defendant.] Please answer "yes" or "no" to the question which was just put to you. Did such conferences between Pohl, Muller, and yourself take place?
KALTENBRUNNER: I never had conferences with Pohl and Muller. I had to have semiannual conferences with Pohl because Pohl was, as Chief of the WVHA, the Finance Minister for the entire SS and Police and the funds for my entire intelligence service had to come from Pohl insofar as the Reich Finance Ministry did not provide for all the personnel.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, please answer one further question: Who was responsible for the administration of concentration camps, the general treatment, food, et cetera?
KALTENBRUNNER: The entire competence and jurisdiction in concentration camps, from the moment an internee stepped through the gate of a concentration camp until his release or his death in the concentration camp, or-the third possibility-until the end of the war at which time he was liberated, rested exclusively with the WVHA.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now another question for the complete clarification. I am assuming that these things were exclusively under the jurisdiction of the WVHA, which had nothing to do with the RSHA. But it is correct, is it not, that only through measures of the Secret Police-by issuing orders for protective custody- that internment in these camps could take place. I just want to define clearly these limitations.
KALTENBRUNNER: There is no doubt that that is correct in respect to individual internments on the basis of individual orders for protective custody which, I admit, were partly based on illegal reasons, as I have already stated. However, most of the internments did not take place on orders from the RSHA but came from the occupied territories-and from there came, for instance, the big transports which Fichte mentioned in the first document.
DR. KAUFFMANN: But then these are, without doubt, the offices which were in charge of internments: the Gestapo offices or the Gestapo regional head offices.
KALTENBRUNNER: No, not alone.
DR. KAUFFMANN: But they did participate?
KALTENBRUNNER: No, not alone. One way for internment was the order for protective custody by the Gestapo, another one was the order for protective custody by the Kripo or the courts.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Now, a further statement. Will you please make a statement to Question Number 5, the action in Denmark?
THE PRESIDENT: Have you dealt with Question Number 4 yet?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Not yet, Mr. President. [Turning to the defendant.] I go over to Question Number 4. "Is it not a fact that in July or August of 1944 an order was issued to commanders . . . by Himmler through Kaltenbrunner, as chief . . . to the effect that members of all Anglo-American commando groups should be turned over to the Sipo by the Armed Forces?" Mr. President, I wanted to deal with this question comprehensively at a later time and by means of documents, but, if you wish me to, I can deal with it now.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not care how you deal with it. I thought you were taking him through this document. ~
KALTENBRUNNER: High Tribunal, may I perhaps answer it right away? The answer to this question is very simple. The Prosecution itself, through at document, has, in a completely different form, charged that the State Police had incriminated themselves by falsifying the facts. In that document the Prosecution states that Muller gave the approval; but here the deponent is told, "issued . . . by Himmler through Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the Sipo and SD." And that document, as far as I recall-I do not know the number-is signed by Muller.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I will submit that document to you. It is Document 1650-PS, Exhibit USA-245. This document is headed, "Gestapo office, Cologne; Branch Office Aachen." It is a teletype and dated "4 March 1944; top secret": "Subject: Measures against escaped prisoners of war who are officers or non-working, noncommissioned officers' with the exception of British and American prisoners of war."
THE PRESIDENT: Surely that has nothing to do with it. This is a document of March, and the document that the question refers to is in July or August.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I cannot hear.
THE PRESIDENT: The document you have now put forward is a document in March 1944. The Question Number 4 relates to a document in July or August 1944.
DR. KAUFFMANN: July or August (1944? I have no such document, Your Honor. Perhaps the defendant can tell us now whether such an order by Himmler existed and whether such a Himmler order was transmitted by him-"yes" or "no."
KALTENBRUNNER: I heard about the existence of such an order for the first time here. I believe it is a mistake on the part of the Prosecution that the question was put to Mildner as July or August. I believe the Prosecution means the document of 4 March 1944.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then you are saying that this order from July is not known to you?
KALTENBRUNNER: I did not know this order nor did I know about it during my term of office.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, it is perfectly obvious, isn't it, that the document to which you are referring has nothing to do with this question at all, because this document of March concerns measures to be taken against captured, escaped prisoners of war who are officers or noncommissioned officers, except British and American prisoners of war. That is the document.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I do not have a document of July or August 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know whether there is a document of July or August 1944 at all. What I am saying to you is that the document which you put to the witness now-of March 1944-can't be the document referred to in question Number 4, for it deals with an entirely different subject.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. That is right, Your Honor. I believe I can explain this, Mr. President. I assume that the testimony by the witness refers to the so-called Commando order of Hitler of 18 October 1942, and that a result of this order is meant here. I believe it is that way.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, can you tell whether the Prosecution, in putting this question, were referring to a document of March, 1944, or whether they were referring to a document of July or August 1942?
COL. AMEN: We, Your Lordship, were not referring to any document that was brought up by the witness. But since that time we have confirmed from another document-which I think we have here at the table-referring to this same document or a document of that same date. Now, the witness' feeling was that that document had been destroyed after reading. But that there was such an order apparently is borne out by another document which we have here which has not come before the Tribunal in any way at all. In other words, this document was brought up in the first instance by the witness himself.
THE PRESIDENT: But has the document to which Dr. Kauffmann has referred of March 1944 got anything to do with it?
COL. AMEN: That is not the document and has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then shall I pass on to the next question, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN: It is the question of the persecution of Jews in Denmark. Will you make a statement to that?
KALTENBRUNNER: The statement in the affidavit of Mildner which was read by you this morning is alone correct.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is that your statement?
KALTENBRUNNER: I never had anything to do with the removal of Jews from Denmark. Such an order could have been given only by Himmler; and that this was a direct order given by Himmler was confirmed by Mildner.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Point c) of the question Number 5 says, "That shortly after your return to Copenhagen you"-that is, the witness Mildner-"received a direct order by Himmler sent through Kaltenbrunner, as chief..."
KALTENBRUNNER: I never had an order like that go through my hands and I never received an order like that from Himmler. It is also absolutely impossible, because Denmark had her own Higher SS and Police Leader who was the direct representative of Himmler right there, and who was immediately subordinate to him and not to RSHA. This Higher SS and Police Leader was at the same time Commander of the Sipo. Organizationally I could not give such an order to Denmark.
DR. KAUFFMANN: In Question Number 6 it is asked: "Is it not a fact that the action of Sonderkommando Eichmann was not a success; that Muller ordered you"-that is Mildner-"to make a report . . . directly to the Chief of the Sipo and SD, Kaltenbrunner?" The witness Mildner answered that in the affirmative. Is such a report from Denmark known to you?
KALTENBRUNNER: I not only do not know this report, but I know with certainty-I spoke to Himmler not once but a dozen times about this-that he received every report from Eichmann directly, in many cases without informing Muller.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then let us turn to Hottl's affidavit. As far as I can see there are no important changes from the affidavit given me. Do the High Tribunal wish for me to put questions on that matter? Then let us turn to question Number fib). It states: "It is known to me that orders for commitments into concentration camps and discharges therefrom came from the RSHA. I did not know that all such orders originated with the RSHA. I have no knowledge of orders for executions by the RSHA." What can you say to that?
KALTENBRUNNER: Orders for execution could only have come through RSHA when Himmler had ordered Muller to forward these orders. But I believe that took place only in a few isolated cases and mostly after Muller had informed Himmler that a court had passed judgment.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, the defendant asked me several minutes ago to make a statement with reference to Document 1063-PS which we have discussed. He had contested his signature; I believe that he wishes to say now that it is his signature. It is the document of the RSHA of 26 July 1943. Do you want the document?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, is it 1063-PS? Have you the original there? DR. KAUFFMANN I have only a photostatic copy; not the original, Your Honor. 11 April 41;
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what is the question?
DR. KAUFFMANN: [Turning to the defendant.] Are you ready?