dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
M. MONNERAY: You said a short while ago that there was no connection between the Gestapo and the Nazi Party, did you not?
HOFFIVIANN: Yes, that is correct.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct, though, that Police officials were subjected to political screening?
HOFFMANN: I did not quite understand the sense of the question. I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.
M.MONNERAY: "Political screening" is a special term which you probably know; in German it is called "Politische Beurteilung."
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: It is true, is it not, that important officials of the Police, before being appointed, were subjected to this political screening by the Party?
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: Do you know the circular of the Party Chancellery according to which the authorities of the National Socialist Party were not obliged to consult the USC cards when it was a question of appointing new Police officials or of giving promotion?
HOFFMANN: Each official who entered was examined regarding his political attitude, and each one who was promoted was screened again.
M. MONNERAY: You were a member of the SS, were you not?
HOFFMANN: Under the assimilation decree I became a member of the SS in November 1939 after the outbreak of war.
M. MONNERAY: You had to send in an application, did you not?
HOFFMANN: We were directed by the office to make a formal application.
M. MONNERAY: And this application was similarly subjected to a political screening, was it not?
HOFFMANN: I assume so.
M. MONNERAY: And when you were in Duesseldorf, as deputy of the chief of the Gestapo services, you had under your orders some frontier Police offices?
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: Is it true that these offices had exactly the same functions as the branch offices of the Gestapo?
HOFFMANN: No, not at first, they had only the duties of frontier Police. In my time, the political tasks of the Police were the business of the Landrat.
M. MONNERAY: You are speaking of what period?
HOFFMANN: I am speaking of the period of 1939 to 1940-until September 1940.
M.MONNERAY: I remind you of a circular of the Ministry of the Interior for Prussia and the Reich, of 8 May 1937, published in the Verordnungsblatt of 1937 of the Ministry of the Interior for the Reich and Prussia, Page 754, which stipulates in its third article that the police tasks at the frontier of the Reich are taken over by the Police commissariats and frontier offices.
HOFFMANN: Yes, that is correct. You must distinguish between the domestic political tasks and counterintelligence work. Counterintelligence, of course, was handled by the frontier Police, but not tasks of a domestic political nature, because most of the officials of the frontier Police did not have the necessary training to make criminal investigations independently.
M. MONNERAY: The same paragraph continues that the frontier offices of the Police are considered Gestapo offices and that they were coordinated with the Aussendienststellen.
HOFFMANN: I cannot understand the word; oh, yes-Aussendienststellen. The frontier Police was subordinated to the State Police office, Department III, which dealt with counterintelligence tasks. As the purpose of counterintelligence work is to counter aggression coming from abroad, it goes without saying that as in any police force on the border the frontier Police are the first who have to deal with these problems. I have just explained that the frontier Police essentially was not entrusted with the domestic political tasks of the Police.
M. MONNERAY: You said to us just now that people were sent to concentration camps at the request of the local Gestapo services. Is that true?
HOFFMANN: If an individual was to be sent to a concentration camp, the State Police office in Berlin had to make a request to the Gestapo office. It was only if the Gestapo office or, later on, the chief of the Security Police decided for protective custody, that the individual could be sent to the concentration camp. The transportation was provided through the usual channels of the Police administration.
M. MONNERAY: So it is a fact, Witness, that internments in concentration camps were made on the initiative of the local offices of the Gestapo?
HOFFMANN: On the demand of the local office of the State Police
M. MONNERAY: And ' the local Gestapo services, when making such a request at the same time arrested the individual?
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: Did frontier posts also have the right to make requests for internment in concentration camps?
HOFFMANN: The frontier Police had only the duty of apprehending people at the frontier. They did not make any decisions independently. When the frontier Police arrested a person, all they did was to hand him over with a report to the State Police office, which continued to investigate the matter. The officials of the frontier Police were mostly beginners who were not yet able to carry out any criminal investigations. The frontier Police office was not an independent office that could make such requests. The duties of the frontier Police were in no way different from those before 1933.
M. MONNERAY: I would like to show you, Witness, a document which nevertheless dates from 1944 and which comes from the Duesseldorf Gestapo office. That is Document 1063-PS. Is it a fact that this letter was also sent to offices of the frontier Police to inform them that there was no permission to send arrested Eastern Workers back to Buchenwald concentration camp?
HOFFMANN: Excuse me; I did not quite understand the question because I was reading.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct that this letter addressed to the frontier Police offices of the frontier Police informs them...
HOFFMANN: That can be seen from the contents. It is clear, of course, that a State Police office also sends its principal directives to the frontier, for the contents of this letter deal with the treatment of individuals who had been caught and that, of course, happened at the frontier. The letter also states that a Police office, having picked up such an individual, has to pass on all information when they hand over the case to the State Police office, that is, the principal office.
M. MONNERAY: It is correct, is it not, that this document indicates that requests for transfer to concentration camps which would come from frontier offices have to pass via Duesseldorf?
HOFFMANN: Yes, of course. To my knowledge, the frontier Police office could not have any direct connection with the Gestapo.
M.MONNERAY: So it is also correct that the frontier Police office could itself file requests for internment in concentration camps?
HOFFMANN: Only to the State Police office at Duesseldorf. But I must add that the document is dated 1944, and that since 1940 1 was no longer engaged in State Police work in Germany; and I cannot say whether there were any changes in the directives given for the frontier Police offices during my absence. This document does not give any cause to suppose there were, because I assume that the same decree was also sent to the Landräte.
THE PRESIDENT: In general, the Tribunal thinks that there is no use cross-examining the witness about documents which are not his own documents and about which he knows nothing. You can put the documents in.
M. MONNERAY: Do you know the institution of the Secret Field Police?
HOFFMANN: In the country there was only the Gendarmerie, and in the smaller towns, the so-called communal Criminal Police.
M. MONNERAY: I believe there is a mistranslation here. I mean the "Geheime Feldpolizei."
HOFFMANN: That institution is known to me, yes. I did not understand the question at first.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct that most of the members of the Field Police came from the Police?
HOFFMANN: The units of the Secret Field Police were composed of a few Police officials, but mostly of soldiers who had been detailed for that purpose. With regard to the groups of the Secret Field Police which were transferred to Denmark, I estimate that within one unit there were about 10 to 15 percent of Police officials, and the remainder were soldiers who had been detailed for that duty and who previously had never had anything to do with the Police.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct that most of the officers of the Field Police came from the Police?
HOFFMANN: The leaders of the detachments and the staff were mostly Police officials, and as far as I can remember, mostly officials from the Criminal Police.
M. MONNERAY: With the permission of the Tribunal I will hand in two documents which are affidavits, Documents F-964 and F-965, which become Exhibits RP-1535 and RF-1536. These documents indicate, for two regions of France, that the great majority of the officers of this military Police came from the Police originally. [Turning to the witness.] Is it correct that hostages in the occupied territories were handed over to the Sipo?
HOFFMANN: I did not understand that question.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct that in the occupied territories hostages were handed over by the Armed Forces to the Sipo?
HOFFMANN: That varied in the different territories. As far as I know, hostages in France were shot by the Armed Forces; in Norway, upon order of the Reich Commissioner Terboven, as far as I know, by the Sipo. I could not say of my own knowledge how it was in Belgium.
M. MONNERAY: Did you receive any reports on* third-degree ,interrogations, indicating how rigorous these interrogations were?
HOFFMANN: You mean reports during my term of office?
M. MONNERAY: That was in Berlin.
HOFFMANN: No, I have said that as an official basis of information we only found out what had been printed in the Norwegian White Book. Apart from that nothing was known to me.
M. MONNERAY: I should like to submit to the Tribunal a report from the commander of the Sipo and SD at Marseilles, of 6 July 1944, concerning arrests of members of the French resistance, of the interrogation of these members, and of deaths which ensued. This is Document F-979, which becomes Exhibit RF-1537. With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to read an extract of this document-on Page 2 of the French translation: "The arrested men, Numbers I to 4, 6 to 12, as well as the 43 prisoners named under Number 16, were killed while attempting to escape on a large scale on 13 June 1944. Numbers 13 to 15 were killed in the neighborhood of Salon on 15 June 1944 in an attempted escape. Number 17 is still required by special section AS."-and further on-"Number 21 died at our office on 9 June 1944." [Turning to the witness.] Concerning the Nacht und Nebel Decree, you said to us that the Gestapo services in Berlin were opposed to it. Is that so?
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: I would like to submit to you Document 668-PS, which has already been submitted as Exhibit USA-504.
HOFFMANN: I have explained that the State Police, for technical reasons, were against that decree. But since it was a decree which had been issued by the German Government, the decree had, of course, to be carried out by the State Police as well as by other offices.
M. MONNERAY: And your Amt IV D 4, which, signed this document, chose the most rigorous solution?
HOFFMANN: The solution which was indicated by the decree.
M. MONN-ERAY: The Armed Forces had asked your office to suggest the solution, had it not?
HOFFMANN: Do you mean the solution in this special case, or the decree in general?
M. MONNERAY: I ask you, Witness, whether it is correct that the Armed Forces requested you to suggest an answer to the question of whether the relatives of a deceased Frenchman should be advised of his death or not. Is it true that you chose the most rigorous solution?
HOFFMANN: From this document I can gather only that apparently an inquiry was sent by the OKW, and that the Gestapo office gave the answer, stating what was required by the terms of this decree.
M. MONNERAY: Is it correct that on Page 2 the Army answers you that it agrees with your proposal?
HOFFMANN: Obviously.
M.MONN-ERAY: Did you yourself give instructions, personal instructions, concerning the application of the Nacht und Nebel Decree?
HOFFMANN: That was not my task. I had as ministerial agent only to pass on the terms of the decree to the competent offices, and the rest was done by the local offices.
M. MONNERAY: Did you have any connection with the concentration camp services?
HOFFMANN: I had connection with the concentration camps only from the time when I was charged with the care of the French ministers, because Prime Minister Reynaud and M. Mandel first lived in cells at Oranienburg, and I had to see them there frequently in order to find out what they needed. And the same applied later to the Concentration Camp Buchenwald where Prime Minister Blum and M. Mandel were accommodated in a small house, a cottage, in the settlement where the management was quartered. And concerning the castle of Gitter, the guards posted there were taken from units of the Concentration Camp Dachau. Those were the only cases in which I had indirect contact with the administration of concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: It is time to adjourn. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]
THE PRESIDENT: It will perhaps be convenient to counsel for the organizations to know that the Tribunal proposes to take all the oral evidence, the witnesses for the organizations, first, and then that they should comment upon their documents afterward, because some of the documents, namely affidavits, have not yet been got ready. I think that will probably be convenient to counsel of the organizations. And the Tribunal proposes to sit on Saturday morning in open session until I o'clock.
M. MONNERAY: You told us a while ago that, except for the protection of certain French political persons, you had nothing to do with the control of the concentration camps?
HOFFMANN: No.
M. MONNERAY: Did you establish regulations for the concentration camps?
HOFFMANN: No.
M.MONNERAY: Did you pass on instructions to the concentration camps?
HOFFMANN: I cannot remember.
M.MONNERAY: I should like to show the witness, with the permission of the Tribunal, Document 2521-PS, which will become Exhibit RF-1538. This document is not in the document book; it is a new item. On Page 2 of this document we find an extract of the Night and Fog Decree for the use of the concentration camp offices. This document is dated 4 August, 1942, and comes from Amt IV D 4.
HOFFMANN: Yes. That is a factual transmission of the Night and Fog Decree to the inspector of the concentration camps. I can no longer remember from when they started carrying out the Night and Fog Decree in concentration camps. I assume that the reason was the difficulty of carrying out the procedure in the individual offices.
M. MONNERAY: This document is signed by yourself, is it not?
HOFFMANN: It says, "Signed, Dr. Hoffmann," and there is a stamp there, too. I must have signed it at some time.
M. MONNERAY: Is it a document that was drawn up in your office?
HOFFMANN: From its appearance, I must assume so.
M. MONNERAY: So it is certain that your office gave instructions and explanations about this decre e?
HOFFMANN: Yes. That is quite clear and that was never disputed.
M.MONNERAY: You told us this morning that the State and the State leadership did not act according to the ideas of the Police?
HOFFMANN: In many cases not according to our judgment; that is correct.
M. MONNERAY: Do you consider that the subject matter of the Night and Fog Decree conforms to Police conceptions?
HOFFMANN: No.
M. MONNERAY: That is to say you think that this decree is contrary to Police conceptions?
HOFFMANN: Yes. I have stated that this decree was given out without any suggestion by the Police, and in my statements concerning our conception of the origin and the combating of the military organizations, I declared that this decree does not conform to it. If, however, this decree was issued by the supreme State leadership, then, of course, the Police had to act according to these principles and could only try to put through its own views within the framework of this decree.
M. MONNERAY: In other words, whether the Gestapo approved of the measures taken or not, they co-operated in carrying them out.
HOFFMANN: Yes, indeed.
M. MONNERAY: Had the Gestapo the right to carry out executions?
HOFFMANN: No. However, I did hear that in one sector, which did not come under my jurisdiction, regulations of that sort did exist.
M. MONNERAY: What department was that?
HOFFMANN: As far as I know, the branch dealing with Polish questions.
M. MONNERAY: Did your office, IV D, receive any information on the right of the Gestapo to carry out executions?
HOFFMANN: I cannot remember whether we received decrees of that sort.
M. MONNERAY: I should like to show you Document 1715-PS, which will become Exhibit RF-1539. [The document was shown to the witness.] It is a document signed by Kaltenbrunner and which was sent to all the offices of the Gestapo for their information and to your office, IV D.
HOFFMANN: I should like to call your attention to the fact that my department, D 4 - Dora 4 - was the group in which all occupied countries were comprised.  This document is addressed to the Bruppenleiter IV D, not to Department 4 - Dora 4.  This document, therefore, was not sent to my department. Since no executions were carried out in the western sector, the document was not sent to my department.
M. MONNERAY: But the documents correspond to the reality. The Gestapo could carry out executions.
HOFFMANN: From my own knowledge, I cannot give you any further details about the handling of this problem in practice.
M. MONNERAY: Were you acquainted with Eichmann?
HOFFMANN: From my activity, I know that Eichmann was in charge of the Jewish branch in the Reich Security Main Office.
M. MONNERAY: Your office received no information about anti-Jewish activities in occupied territories, did it?
HOFFMANN: My office received the monthly reports from the commanders in the occupied territories. In these reports, for example, the deportation of Jews was reported on and I have already explained that I learned the fact of the Jewish deportations for the first time from these reports, and that when I approached Eichmann on this matter and asked why these facts were not previousl made known to the department, he refused, saying that he acted only on the basis of superior orders.
M. MONNERAY: Did Eichmann have deputies in the occupied territories?
HOFFMANN: I know that he had his special deputies with various BDS commanders.
M. MONNERAY: Did these deputies have the right to give orders to the Gestapo offices?
HOFFMANN: I cannot give you any information from my own knowledge about the exact position of these deputies of Eichmann's. Eichmann was theoretically a part of the Gestapo office.
M. MONNERAY: A part of Department IV, was he not?
HOFFMANN: Theoretically he was attached to Department IV, but he conducted a very intense activity of his own and I also emphasized that this may be traced back largely to the fact that he did not come from the Police.
M. MONNERAY: Were you kept constantly posted on Eichmann's deputies in the various occupied territories?
HOFFMANN: Only from the monthly reports of the commanders.
M. MONNERAY: And these reports told you, for instance, the number of deportations?
HOFFMANN: Yes.
M. MONNERAY: Did the Gestapo and the Sipo in the occupied territories collaborate in these deportations?
HOFFMANN: As far as I know, yes.
M.MONNERAY: What were the functions of Department II of the RSHA?
HOFFMANN: Department II of the Reich Security Main Office dealt with administrative and economic questions as well as-from the beginning until, I believe, 1944-with questions of passports and the interning of foreigners, and I believe with the judiciary.
M. MONNERAY: Were the employees of this office chiefly officials from the executive or administrative branch of the Police?
HOFFMANN: Amt II consisted mainly of administrative officials and lawyers.
M. MONNERAY: According to you, this office was very poorly informed as to what happened in the executive branch?
HOFFMANN: Yes, because essentially they dealt with legal and administrative questions.
M. MONNERAY: Do you know what were the functions of Department II D?
HOFFMANN: If I am not mistaken, it was questions of jurisdiction.
M. MONNERAY: I should like to show you a document which has already been submitted as Document 501-PS, Exhibit USA-288. [The document was submitted to the witness.] According to this document, the gas vans which were intended to exterminate the population in the Eastern territories, especially Jews, were supplied by this Department II, which according to this document was perfectly aware of the extermination. Do you still maintain that there was no connection between the administrative and the executive offices?
HOFFMANN: As far as I can see from the document, Department II D concerned the-concerned the technical section which dealt with motor vehicles, and as far as the contents are concerned, it deals with special motor vehicles, and it is obviously a report of a motor pool to the central office for the handling of motor vehicles, in Berlin.
M. MONNERAY: You admit that this is a document which speaks of certain special vehicles intended for extermination?
HOFFMANN: So far as I can see from running over the document rapidly, you could draw that conclusion from the contents.
M. MONNERAY: Dr. Hoffmann, one last question ...
THE PRESIDENT: M. Monneray, I think the document speaks for itself.
M. MONNERAY: Yes, Sir. [Turning to the witness.] Did you often have the impression in the course of your activity in the Gestapo that the State leadership was asking you to carry out tasks which were contrary to what you would call Police duties?
HOFFMANN: In connection with certain questions during my activity in Berlin, as well as also later in Denmark, I had the feeling that certain duties were assigned to us which were contrary to our judgment as policemen; but in this respect, I must remark that I could only judge these questions from the point of view of a Police official. I could define my attitude to things only on the basis of my professional knowledge, and I did not know what had caused the leadership to make the decisions which they transmitted to us.
M. MONNERAY: You did not consider as criminal, for example, the order concerning certain categories of Soviet prisoners?
HOFFMANN: I must honestly say that I was absolutely unable to understand such an order, particularly since it could not be explained at all by Police reasons.
M. MONNERAY: But nevertheless, the Gestapo lent itself to the execution of these orders, did it not?
HOFFMANN: I cannot tell you that from my own knowledge.
M. MONNERAY: I have no further questions.
DR. MERKEL: Just a few questions, Mr. President. [Turning to the witness.] Did the members of the Gestapo who had been assimilated into the SS by the assimilation decree come under the orders of the SS or the SD and did they perform their duties there?
HOFFMANN: No. The registration in the SS was merely a theoretical measure, and after my formal entry into the SS in the year 1939 I did not perform any service with either the SS or the SD.
DR.MERKEL: In the order of protective arrest issued by the RSHA was the concentration camp to which the prisoner was to be delivered already designated?