dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
GISEVIUS: I not only heard and saw it myself, but I also learned much from a man who in those days was also a member of the Secret State Police, and whose information will play an important part in the course of my statements. At that time a criminologist had been called into the Secret State Police, probably the best known expert of the Prussian police, Oberregierungsrat Nebe. Nebe was a National Socialist. He had been in opposition to the former Prussian police and had joined the National Socialist Party. He was a man who sincerely believed in the purity and genuineness of the National Socialist aims. Thus I saw for myself how this man found out on the spot what was actually going on and how he inwardly recoiled. I can also state here, as it is important, the reasons why Nebe became a strong opponent, who went with the opposition up to 20 July and later suffered death by hanging. At that time, in August 1933, Nebe was ordered by the Defendant Goering to murder Gregor Strasser, formerly a leading member of the National Socialist Party, by means of a car or hunting accident. Nebe was so shocked at this order that he refused to carry it out and made an inquiry at the Reich Chancellery. The answer from the Reich Chancellery was that the Fuehrer knew nothing of this order. Thereupon Nebe was summoned to Goering, who reproached him most bitterly for having made an inquiry. Nevertheless, when he finished these reproaches he considered it advisable to promote him, because he thought he would thereby silence him. The second thing which happened at that time, and which is also very important, was that the Defendant Goering gave the Political Police so-called open warrants for murder. At that time there were not only so-called amnesty laws which gave amnesty for infamous actions, but there was also a special law according to which investigations, already initiated by police authorities and by the public prosecutor, could be quashed, on condition, however, that in these special cases the Reich Chancellor, or Goering, personally signed the pertinent order.
GISEVIUS: Goering made use of this law by giving open warrants to the Chief of the Gestapo, with which all that had to be done was to fill in the names of those who were to be murdered. Nebe was so shocked by this that from that moment on he felt it his duty to fight against the Gestapo. At our request he remained with us there, and afterwards in the Criminal Police, because we needed one man at least who could keep us informed about police conditions in case our desire for a revolution should materialize.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Witness, what did you do yourself when you saw all these thongs?
GISEVIUS: I, for my part, tried to contact those bourgeois circles which through my connections were open to me. I went to various ministries: to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior, to State Secretary Grauert, and several ministerial directors and counsellors. I went to the Reich Ministry of the Interior, to the Ministry of Justice, to the Foreign Office, and the Ministry of War. I spoke repeatedly to the Chief of the Army High Command, Colonel General Von Hammerstein. Among all these connections I formed at that time, there is one other who is particularly important for my testimony. At that time I met in the newly formed intelligence department of the OKW a Major Oster. I gave him all the material which by then had already accumulated. We started a collection-which we continued until 20 July-of all the documents we could get hold of; and Oster was the man who from then on, in the Ministry of War never failed to warn every officer he could contact officially or privately. In course of time, by flavor of Admiral Canaris, Oster became Chief of Staff of the Intelligence. When he met his death by hanging he was a general. But I consider it my duty to testify here, in view of all this man has done-his unforgettable fight against the Gestapo and against all the crimes which were committed against humanity and peace-that among the inflation of German field marshals and generals there was one real German general
DR. PANNENBECKER: How did the work develop, according to your observations in the Gestapo?
GISEVIUS: At that time conditions in Germany were still such that people kept their eyes open in the ministries. There was still an opposition in the bourgeois ministries; there was still the Reich President Von Hindenburg. Thus, at the end of October 1933 the Defendant Goering was forced to dismiss Diels, the Chief of the State Police. At the same time a commission of investigation was set up in order to re-organize that institution thoroughly. According to the ministerial decree, Nebe and I were members of that commission. But that commission never met, for the Defendant Goering found ways and means to thwart this measure. He appointed as Chief and successor of Diels a still worse Nazi named Hinkler, who some time before had been acquitted in a trial because of irresponsibility; and this Hinkler acted in such a way that before 30 days had passed he was dismissed. Then the Defendant Goering was able to restore his Diels to the office.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Do you know anything of the events which led to the Prussian law of 30 November 1933, by which the functions of the Gestapo were taken away from the office the Minister of the Interior and transferred to the office of the Prussian Prime Minister?
GISEVIUS: That was just the moment of which I am speaking. Goering realized that it would not serve his purpose if other ministries were too much concerned in his Secret State Police. Though he was Prussian Minister of the Interior himself, he was disturbed by the fact that the police department of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior could look into the affairs of his private domain; and so he separated the Secret State Police from the remaining police and placed it under his personal direction, thereby excluding all other police authorities. From the point of view of a proper police system this was nonsense, because you cannot run a Political Police properly if you separate it from the Criminal Police and the Order Police. But Goering knew why he did not want any other police authority to look into the affairs of the Secret State Police.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Witness, did you remain in the police service yourself?
GISEVIUS: On that day when Goering carried out his little- and I can't find another word for it-coup d'etat by assigning to himself a state police of his own, this Secret State Police issued a warrant of arrest against me. I had expected this and had gone into hiding The next morning I went to the Chief of the Police Department of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior, Ministerial Director Daluege-who was a high SS general-and said that it was really not quite in order to issue a warrant of arrest against me. A criminal commissioner of the Secret State Police came to arrest me in the room of the Chief of the Prussian police. Daluege was kind enough to allow me to escape through a back door to State Secretary Grauert. Grauert intervened with Goering, and as always in cases of this kind, Goering was very surprised and ordered a thorough investigation. That was the usual way of saying that such incidents were to be pigeonholed. After that I was no longer allowed to enter the Secret State Police, but I was sent as an observer to the Reichstag Fire trial at Leipzig, which was just drawing to an end. During these last days of November I was able to get some insight into this obscure affair and having already tried, together with Nebe, to investigate this crime, I was able to add to my knowledge here. I assume that I shall again be questioned about that point and, therefore, shall now confine myself to the abatement that, if necessary, I am prepared to refresh Defendant Goering's memory concerning his complicity in and his joint knowledge of this first "brown" coup d'etat and the murder of the accomplices.
DR. PANNENBECKER: On 1 May 1934 Frick became Prussian Minister of the Interior. Did you get into touch with Frick himself or his ministries?
GISEVIUS: Yes. Immediately after the Reichstag Fire trial was over-that is, at the end of 1933 -- I was dismissed from the police service and transferred to a Landrat office in East Prussia. I complained, however, to State Secretary Grauert about this obvious disciplinary punishment. As he and Ministerial Director Daluege knew of my quarrel with the Secret State Police, they got me into the Ministry of the Interior and assigned to me the task of collecting all those reports which were still being incorrectly addressed to the Ministry of the Interior and of forwarding them to the Prussian Prime Minister who was in charge of the Secret State Police and who dealt with these matters. As soon as Goering found out about this he repeatedly protested against my presence in the Ministry, but the Minister of the Interior was adamant and I succeeded in keeping that post. When Frick came I did not get in touch with him immediately as I was only a subordinate official. I assume, however, that the Defendant Frick knew about my activity and my views, because I was now encouraged to continue collecting all those requests for help which were wrongly addressed to the Ministry of the Interior, and a large number of these reports I submitted through official channels to Daluege, Grauert, and Frick. There was, however, the difficulty that Goering, in his capacity of Prime Minister of Prussia, had prohibited Frick, as his Prussian Minister of The Interior, to take cognizance of such reports. Frick was supposed to forward them to the Gestapo without comment. I saw no reason for not submitting them to Frick all the same, and as Frick was also Reich Minister of the Interior-and in this capacity could give directives to the Laender and, therefore, also to Goering-he took cognizance of these reports in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, and allowed me to forward them to Goering with the request for a report. Goering protested repeatedly, and I know this resulted in heated disputes between him and Frick.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Is anything known to you about the fact that at that time the Reich Minister of the Interior issued certain directives to restrict protective custody?
GISEVIUS: It is correct that at that time a number of such directives were issued, and the fact that I say that a number of such directives were issued already implies that generally they were not complied with by subordinate authorities. The Reich Minister of the Interior was a minister with no personal executive power, and I will never forget the impression it made on me, while training as a civil servant, that we officials in the Secret State Police were instructed in principle not to answer any inquiries from the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Naturally, at intervals the Reich Minister of the Interior sent reminders, and the efficiency of a Gestapo official was judged by the number of such reminders he could show his chief, Diels, as proof that he did not pay any attention to such matters.
DRY PANNENBECKER: On 30 June 1934 the so-called Rohm Putsch took place. Can you give a short description of the conditions prevailing before this Putsch?
GISEVIUS: First I have to say that there never was a Rohm Putsch. On 30 June there was only a Goering-Himmler Putsch. I am in a position to give some information about that dark chapter, because I dealt with and followed up this case in the Police Department of the Ministry of the Interior, and because the radiograms sent during these days by Goering and Himmler to the police authorities of the Reich came into my hands. The last of these radiograms reads: "By order of Goering all documents relating to 30 June shall be burned immediately." At that time I took the liberty of putting these papers into my safe, and to this day I do not know whether or not they survived Kaltenbrunner's attempts to get them. I still hope to recover these papers, and if I do, I can prove that throughout the whole 30 June not a single shot was fired by the SA. The SA did not revolt. By this, however, I do not wish to utter a single word of excuse for the leaders of the SA. On 30 June not one of the SA leaders died who did not deserve death a hundred times - but after a proper trial. The situation on that 30 June was that of a civil war; on one side were the SA headed by Rohm, and on the other side, Goering and Himmler. It had been arranged for the SA, several days before 30 June, to be sent on leave. The SA leaders had been purposely called by Hitler for a conference at Wiessee that 30 June, and it is not usual for people who intend to effect a coup d'etat to travel by sleeping car to a conference. To their surprise they were seized at the station and at once driven off to execution. The so-called Munich Putsch took place as follows: The Munich SA did not come into it at all, and at 1 hour's driving distance from Munich the alleged traitors, Rohm and Heines, fell into the sleep of death completely ignorant of the fact that, according to Hitler and Goering, a revolt had taken place in Munich the previous night. I was able to observe the Putsch in Berlin very closely. It took place without anything being known about it by the public and without any participation by the SA.
GISEVIUS: We in the police were unaware of it. It is true, however, that 4 days before 30 June one of the alleged ringleaders, SA Gruppenfuehrer Karl Ernst of Berlin, came to Ministerial Director Daluege looking very concerned and said that there were rumors going round in Berlin that the SA were contemplating a Putsch. He asked for an interview with Minister of the Interior Frick, so that he, Ernst, could assure him that there was no such intention. Daluege sent me with this message to the Defendant Frick, and I arranged for this strange conversation where an SA leader assured the Minister of the Interior that he did not intend to stage a Putsch. Ernst then set out on a pleasure trip to Madeira. On 30 June he was taken from the steamer and sent to Berlin for execution. I saw him arrive at the Tempelhof airport. This struck me as particularly interesting, because a few hours before I had read the official report about his execution in the newspaper. That, then, was the so-called SA and Rohm Putsch. And because I am not to withhold anything, I must add that I was present when on 30 June the Defendant Goering informed the press of the event. On this occasion the Defendant Goering made the cold-blooded remark that he had for days been waiting for a code word which he had arranged with Hitler. He had then struck, of course with lightning speed, and had also extended the scope of his mission. This extension of his mission caused the death of a large number of innocent people. To mention only a few, there were Generals Schleicher-who was killed together with his wife-and Von Bredow, Ministerial Director Klausner, Edgar Jung, and many others.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Witness, you were in the Ministry of the Interior yourself at that time. How did Frick hear about these measures, and was he himself in any way involved in the quelling of this so-called Putsch?
GISEVIUS: I was present when, at about half past 9, Ministerial Director Daluege came back quite pale after seeing Goering and having just been told what had happened. Daluege and I went to Grauert and we drove to the Reich Ministry of the Interior, to Frick. Frick rushed out of the room-it may have been about 10 o'clock- in order to go to Goering to find out what had happened in the meantime, only to be told that he, as Police Minister of the Reich, should go home now and not worry about further developments. In fact, Frick did go home, and during those 2 dramatic days he did not enter the ministry. Once during this time Daluege drove over with me to see him. For the rest, it was given to me, the youngest official of the Reich Ministry of the Interior, to inform the Reich Minister of the Interior on that bloody Saturday and Sunday of the atrocious things which in the meantime had happened in Germany.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Witness, you just told us of an instruction Frick had received not to worry about these things. Who gave him this instruction?
GISEVIUS: As far as I know, Goering gave or conveyed to him an instruction by Hitler. I do not know whether there was a written instruction; neither do I know whether Frick had asked about it. I should think that Frick, on that day, probably considered it would be wise not to ask too many awkward questions.
DR. PANNENBECKER: After these things had been concluded, did Frick in any way attempt to smooth matters over?
GISEVIUS: To answer this question correctly I have to say first that on Saturday, 30 June, we at the Ministry of the Interior knew very little about what had happened. On Sunday, 1 July, we learned much more, and after these bloody days had passed, there is no doubt that Frick had on the whole a clear idea of what had happened. Also, during these days he made no secret of his indignation at the murders and unlawful arrests which apparently had taken place. In order to stick to the truth I have to answer your question by saying that the first reaction of the Defendant Frick which I knew about was that Reich law in which the Reich Ministers declared the events of June 30 to be lawful. This law had an unprecedented psychological effect on the further developments in Germany, and it has its place in the history of German terror. Apart from this, many things happened in the Third Reich which a normal mortal could not understand, but which were well understood in the circles of ministers and state secretaries. And so, I have to admit that, after that law, the Defendant Frick made a serious attempt to remedy at least the most obvious abuses. Maybe he thought other ministers in the Reich Cabinet should have spoken sooner. I am thinking now of Reich War Minister Von Blomberg, two of whose generals were shot, and who, in spite of that, signed this law. I intentionally mention Blomberg's name, and ask to be permitted to pause here to tell the Tribunal about an incident which occurred this morning. I was in the room of the defendants' counsel and was speaking to Dr. Dix. Dr. Dix was interrupted by Dr. Stahmer, counsel for Goering. I heard what Dr. Stahmer told Dr. Dix . . .
DR OTTO STAHMER (Counsel for Defendant Goering): May I ask whether a personal conversation which I had with Dr. Dix has anything to do with the taking of evidence?
GISEVIUS: I am not speaking...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, don't go on with your evidence whilst the objection is being made. Yes, Dr. Stahmer.
GISEVIUS: If you please, I didn't understand. . .
DR. STAHMER: I do not know whether it is in order when giving evidence to reveal a conversation which I had with Dr. Dix in the Defense Counsel's room.
GISEVIUS: May I say something to that?
THE PRESIDENT: Will you kindly keep silent.
GISEVIUS: May I finish my statement?
THE PRESIDENT: Will you keep silent, sir.
DR. STAHMER: This morning in the room of the Defense Counsel, I had a personal conversation with Dr. Dix concerning the Blomberg case. That conversation was not intended to be heard by the witness. I do not know the witness; I didn't even see the witness, as far as I can remember, and I don't know whether this should come into the evidence by making such a conversation public here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This incident has been reported to me, and I think it is important that this Tribunal know the influence-the threats that were made at this witness in this courthouse while waiting to testify here, threats not only against him but against the Defendant Schacht. Now, the affair was reported to me. I think it is important that this Tribunal know it. I think it is important that it come out. I should have attempted to bring it out on cross-examination if it had not been told, and I think that the witness should be permitted. These other parties have had great latitude here. This witness has been subjected to threats, as I understand it, which were uttered in his presence, whether they were intended for him or not, and I ask that this Tribunal allow Dr. Gisevius, who is the one representative of democratic forces in Germany, to take this stand to tell his story.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal would like to hear first of all anything further you have to say upon the matter. They will then hear what Dr. Dix has to say, if he wishes to say anything; and they will then hear whether the witness himself wishes to say anything in answer.
DR. STAHMER: I have no qualms about telling the Court exactly what I said. Last night I discussed the case with the Defendant Goering and told him the witness Gisevius...
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to hear any communications which you had with the Defendant Goering other than those you choose to make in support of your objection to this evidence that has been given.
DR. STAHMER: Yes, Mr. President; but I must say briefly that Goering told me that it was of no interest to him if the witness Gisevius did incriminate him, but that he did not want Blomberg, who died recently-and I assumed it was only the question of Blomberg's marriage-he, Goering, did not want these facts concerning the marriage of Blomberg to be discussed here in public. If that could not be prevented, then of course Goering, in his turn-and it is only a question of Schacht, because Schacht, as he had told me, wanted to speak about these things-then he, Goering would not spare Schacht. That is what I told Dr. Dix this morning, and I am sure Dr. Dix will confirm that, and if I may add . . .
THE PRESIDENT: We will hear you in a moment, Dr. Dix.
DR. STAHMER: I said-and I was not referring to Schacht, to the witness, or to Herr Pannenbecker-I said, for reasons of professional etiquette, that I should like to inform Dr. Dix. That is what I said and what I did. In any case I did not even know that the witness Gisevius was present at that moment. At any rate, it was not intended for him. Moreover, I was speaking to Dr. Dix aside.
THE PRESIDENT: So that I may understand what you are saying: You say you had told Dr. Dix the substance of the conversation you had had with the Defendant Goering, and said that Goering would withdraw his objection to the facts being given if the Defendant Schacht wanted them to be given. Is that right?
DR. STAHMER: No, I only said that Goering did not care what was said about himself; he merely wanted the deceased Blomberg to be spared, and he did not want things concerning Blomberg's marriage to be discussed. If Schacht did not prevent that-I was speaking only of Schacht-then he, Goering, in his turn, would have no consideration for Schacht-would no longer have any consideration for Schacht. That is what I told Dr. Dix for reasons of personal etiquette.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait, wait, I can't hear you. Yes.
DR. STAHMER: As I said, that is what I told Dr. Dix, and that finished the conversation. And I made it quite clear to Dr. Dix that I told him that only as one colleague to another.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. That is all you wish to say?
DR. STAHMER: Yes.