dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
BERR PELCKMANN: I quote from Document Number SS-5 which will be submitted later: "The General SS is entirely an organization of professional men." This is a quotation from a publication, National Political Course for the Armed Forces Organization and Duties of the SS and the German Police: "The greatest duties are imposed upon the man between the ages of 21 and 35, especially up to the age of 25. In these first 4 years it means marching, competitive games and sports of every kind.... Every SS man up to the age of 50 will have to pass some kind of efficiency test annually. Why is this? Most of the men are employed in civil professions; perhaps one-half to three-fifths of those in the SS are city dwellers. The city worker very often has a standing, or in the case of the intellectual worker, a sedentary occupation; in addition to that, there are the bad social conditions in the great cities, and in my opinion this is a grave problem from the military point of view. Most men of the twentieth century -no longer walk, but use the subway, and so forth." I quote further: "If we are to remain young we must participate in sport. But all this remains only theoretical if the men are not tested every year and a certain degree of ambition is not kindled among them so that they really participate in sport." Witness, does this quotation describe the attitude that was typical of the activity of the SS, especially after 1933?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Can you remember statements made by Hitler and other Party leaders at gatherings, and also at the Reichstag or in newspapers, which always contained protestations for peace and even expressed horror and fear of the ghastliness of war?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMA.NN: Were there further tasks, for example, being in attendance and maintaining order at Reich Party rallies? Please describe this.
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, the SS always had to maintain order at the great mass reviews of the Party. Besides preserving order, they had to accompany honorary guests and also take care of them. Those were always difficult and tiring days for the men, especially when they also had to participate in the parade. There is nothing else I can say about this.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you have to take care of the honorary guests?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, I just mentioned that. At Party rallies I myself as well as other high SS leaders, had the,task of guiding high-ranking guests around. At one of the last Party rallies I per-sonally conducted the British Ambassador.
HERR PELCKMANN: Where were you, Witness, on 30 June 1934?
VON EBERSTEIN: In Dresden.
HERR PELCKMANN: Had you already heard before this date that R61un was plotting a so-called Putsch?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, about 8 days before 30 June 1934, 1 was ordered to Berlin by Himmler where the latter officially informed me that R6hm was planning a coup d'état and gave me orders to hold my SS men in a state of quiet readiness for an emergency and to assemble them in barracks when the alarm was sounded. For this purpose he also referred me to the defense area commanders. And so in this way I received this information in advance.
BEER PELCKMANN: Did the General SS take part in any kill-ings on 30 June 1934? What do you know about this from your activities at that time?
VON EBERSTEIN: The General SS did not carry out any kill-ings: in my territory. Indeed, it remained in barracks on all the decisive days.
HERR PELCKMANN: Please describe in detail how, in spite of all this, killings still took pl ace, as I am informed.
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. In the course of the day of 30 June a certain SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Beutel came to me from the SD with a special order which he had received from Heydrich. He was a younger man, this Beutel, and he did not know what to do, so he came to me to obtain my advice, as an older man. He had an order in which there were listed approximately 28 names, and in a post-script it appeared that some of these men were to be arrested and others were to be executed. This document had no signature on it and therefore I advised this Obersturmbannfuehrer to get positive clarification as to what should take place and warned him emphat-ically against any rash action. Then, as far as I know, a courier was sent to Berlin and this courier then brought back eight orders of execution which came from Heydrich. The order read approx-imately as follows: By order of the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor-and then followed the name of the person concerned-so and so is con-demned to death by shooting for high treason. These documents were signed by Heydrich. The signature was undoubtedly genuine and they were stamped with the official stamp of the office which Heydrich directed in Berlin; and on the basis of these documents eight members of the SA and the Party-eight persons in all-were shot by the political police of Saxony in Dresden. Besides that, a Hitler Youth leader was shot in Plauen and still another person in Chemnitz. That is what I know about it, at least about my area.
HERR PELCKMANN: Did you have anything to do with these shootings as leader of the General SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: No; in no way. This order of the State leadership was executed by the political police. I could neither have supported it nor prevented it.
HERR PELCIWANN: Did you believe that Röhm was actually planning a treasonable undertaking and that the danger for the German Government and the German people was so imminent that only immediate action, that is to say, the shooting of those guilty, could save the situation?
VON EBERSTEIN: I believed absolutely that a state of national emergency existed. I had to believe so all the more since the highest German Police official, namely, Himmler, had told me so himself and had also expressly indicated that I should co-operate, in case of an alarm, with the defense area commander, who had a very authoritative office.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you remember that immediately after these events the press published two telegrams from President Von Hindenburg? One of them was to the Fuehrer, of 2 July 1934; and the other one, 2 July 1934, to Göring. I quote Document Number SS-74, which will be handed in later. Hindenburg's tele-gram to Hitler: "From the reports which had been brought to me, I see that by your decisive initiative and by your brave personal risk you have nipped all the treasonable activities -in the bud. You have saved the German people from a grave danger. For this I express to you my heartfelt gratitude and my sincere respect. With best greetings, Von Hindenburg." The telegram from Hindenburg to Göring: "For your energetic and successful action in crushing the attempt at high treason, I express to you my gratitude and respect." Did you read these telegrams at that time in the press?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you remember the speech which Hitler made before the German Reichstag on 13 July 1934, in which he also described how an immediate danger had apparently been hover-ing over Germany?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you remember this-and I will quote only a very brief extract from Document Number SS-105 ...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, don't you think that you can summarize this rather more? This witness has said that so far as his district is concerned the SS had nothing to do with the Röhm affair and it does not seem to be necessary to put all the details of it to him.
HERR PELCKMANN: I believe that I have only the following point to add to the Röhm Putsch-but perhaps that has already been exhaustively discussed-that, in fact, even afterward no suspicion of an illegal action could arise. That is what I wanted to do with this evidence to which I am referring.
THE PRESIDENT: You realize, don't you, as we have said over and over again, that we don't want to have the evidence given before the Commission repeated before us. What we wish is to have a summary and only the most important points dealt with and any new points; and, of course, we wish to see the witnesses in order to see whether they are credible.
HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, I will keep that in mind, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to the applications by Dr. Sie-mers, both of those applications are rejected. Dr. Siemers, of course, may go and visit Vice Admiral Buerckner if he wishes to do so, but the particular application which he made in that respect is rejected and so is the other application which he made for certain documents which are in public libraries.
HERR PELCKMANN: One more question about 30 June, Wit-ness. Do you recall from Hitler's speech, that he said that some innocent persons had been killed and that he guaranteed to have these cases judged by the regular courts?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
HERR PELCKMANN: At that time did you hear the opinion, which you have also reported here today, expressed everywhere in your circle of friends that a state of emergency had existed?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, not only in the SS but also from other Germans.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, where were you on 9 Novem-ber 1938?
VON EBERSTEIN: On 9 November 1938 1 was in Munich.,
HERR PELCKMANN: What position did you hold at that time in the General SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: In the General SS I was SS Obergruppen-fuehrer and Chief of the SS Oberabschnitt South. In addition, I was Police President of Munich.
HERR PELCKMANN: Please describe how you first heard of excesses against Jewish businesses during this night?
VON EBERSTEIN: On that day, in accordance with my official duty, I had to accompany Hitler to the meeting of the "old fighters" in the old City Hall. There Hitler was told that Legation Counsellor Vom Rath had died of his injuries. Hitler was very strongly affected by this and refused to speak, as he had always done before. During this dinner he had a very serious discussion with Goebbels. I could not understand what was being discussed. Shortly thereafter Hitler drove to his apartment. I had to accompany him there on my official duty. Immediately afterward I had to direct the security measures and the blocking-off of traffic on the Odeon Platz, a job for which I was responsible. Every year, on the night of 9 to 10 Novem-ber, a meeting was held there and new recruits were sworn into the Waffen-SS. When I came to the Odeon Platz it was reported to me that a synagogue was burning and that the firemen were being interfered with. Shortly thereafter I received a telephone call from the Chief Magistrate (Landrat) of Munich who told me that Planegg Castle on the Munich city limits, which belonged to the Jewish Baron Hirsch, had been set afire by unknown persons. The, constabulary asked for assistance. This was about 11:45 p.m. At midnight Hitler came to the swearing-in ceremony. Since I could not leave my post, I sent the next highest SS leader, Brigadefuehrer Diehm, to the synagogue to establish order there. Besides that, I sent a police raiding squad under an officer to Planegg in order to ascertain the perpetrators and put out the fire. Immediately after the roll call, after the recruits were sworn in, the other higher SS leaders and myself were ordered to report to Himmler. There in the hotel the Deputy Gauleiter Niepolt informed me that following Hitler's departure from the Rathaus, Goebbels had made a wild speech attacking the Jews. As a result of this con-siderable excesses had occurred in the city. I immediately drove through the city in a car in order to survey the situation. I saw shop windows which had been smashed; a few stores were burning.
VON EBERSTEIN: First, I immediately intervened myself and then threw all the avail-able police on the streets with instructions to protect Jewish busi-ness establishments until further notice. In addition to that, in co-operation with one of the municipal offices of Munich, I saw to it that the shop windows were boarded up to prevent thefts and so forth.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the witness is saying that he took every step to prevent these excesses. I don't think we want the details. I don't think that we want to hear the details of the steps he took to prevent these things and to keep order. The Prosecution can cross-examine if they want to.
HERR PELCKMIANN: Mr. President, is it not possible for me to submit to the witness just what he will be asked by the Pros-ecution? I consider it important that the witness himself should ...
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has been telling us, for several minutes, what happened on the 9th and 10th of November 1938, and we think we know enough. We know the general nature of what he said and we don't want the details of it. If you think that he has not said that the SS did not participate in the excesses, you can ask him that question. He says as far as he is concerned that he did not take part, but that he tried to stop it. We don't want to hear the details of how he tried to stop it.
HERR PELCKATANN: What orders, Witness, did you give to the General SS against participating in the excesses and did the SS subordinate to you obey these orders?
VON EBERSTEIN: I told BrigadeFuehrer Diehm that I strictly prohibited any action and I threatened severe punishment. We in the SS considered this action downright indecent.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you know, Witness, that an Adjutant Schallermeier, on the night before 10 November, took dictation from Himmler, more or less to the effect that he disliked the whole action as mere propaganda of Goebbels and that Hitler had told Himmler that the SS was to keep out of this action?
VON EBERSTEIN: I do not know this document.
HERR PELCKMANN: I refer to the affidavit, Document Num-ber SS-5, which will be discussed later. You said, Witness, that this whole action was detested by the leaders and members of the SS. Do you attribute this to the basic attitude of the SS toward the Jewish question, or do you attribute it, as does a version which I have heard from another source, to the feeling that it was a pity that German national assets of such considerable value had been destroyed?
VON EBERSTEIN: I can only say -that the SS, just like the Party, was anti-Semitic, but quite apart from any material loss, we considered this indecent and the SS did not participate in it.
HERR PELCKMANN: One more question on the preparation for wars of aggression: Do you know whether the General SS made preparations for the entry into Austria and whether it par-ticipated in this entry?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, the General SS did not participate in it. My Oberabschnitt covered the whole German-Austrian border. I would positively have had to know something about it.
HERR PELCKMANN: Do you know of any other preparation for an attack on Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, and Russia, by the General SS? VON, EBERSTEIN: I know nothing of it and the General SS would certainly not have been in any -position to attack a foreign state.
HERR PELCKMANN: After the beginning of the war, did the General SS continue to exist and what task did it then have to fulfill?
VON EBERSTEIN: The General SS had practically ceased to exist during the war. Of the 10,000 men which I had in my Oberabschnitt, there were only 1,200 left h% the country, when the Volkssturm was called up in November 1944. These 1,200 men had all been assigned to war work at home and were no longer available for SS service. They had been taken into the Armed Forces and the Waffen-SS to the last man.
HERR PELCKMANN: And so there were no more regular duties, such as you have described as existing in peacetime?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. There were even no men left for the tasks which still had to be performed, that is, the support of the work of the welfare detachments of the Waffen-SS, the care for the wounded in the hospitals, and the care for the dependents of our fallen comrades. We did this work with honorary members and even with women.
HERR PELCKMANN: Were the members of the General SS enlisted in place of the so-called Death's-Head units (Totenkopf Verbuende) to guard the concentration camps?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes, a small percentage, just as members of other branches of the Party, members of the Kyffhiiuserbund, mostly men who could no longer be used at the front. These men were all liable for duty by virtue of the emergency service order. Toward the end of the war, members of all the branches of the Armed Forces, even citizens of allied states, provided guards for the concentration camps.
HERR PELCKMANN: I refer in this connection to Document Number SS-26 and Number SS-28. It has been asserted by the Prosecution that the General SS established concentration camps immediately after 1933, and that killings and atrocities occurred. What do you know about this?
VON EBERSTEIN: No concentration camps were established by the General SS. The concentration camps were established by the State. To what extent atrocities occurred there I cannot judge.
HERR PELCKMANN: Can you recall the case of an SS leader, Engel, in Stettin, in this connection?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. I knew Engel from the SS, but what he had to do with this I do not know. He was in northern Germany and I in southern Germany.
HERR PELCKMANN: In Munich you were Oberabschnitts-fuehrer of the General SS; at the same time you were Police Pres-ident and from 1939 on you were Higher SS and Police Leader. Please comment as to whether the position of Oberabselmittsfuehrer of the General SS was fundamentally connected, first with the posi-tion of Police President, and second, with the position of the Higher SS and Police Leader.
VON EBERSTEIN: As a matter of fundamental principle I can say "no" in both cases. There were exceptions. The Police Pres-idents of Duesseldorf, Nuremberg, and Munich were Oberabschnitts-fuehrer at the same time. In the second case I can say that the majority of'Oberabschnittsfuehrer of the General SS from 1939 on, that is, from the outbreak of the war, were also Higher- SS and' Police Leaders. An exception existed in Berlin, where the Higher SS and Police Leader was Heissmeyer, who was not Oberabschnitts-fuehrer of the General SS.
HERR PELCKMANN: Is the assertion of the Prosecution correct that the Higher SS and Police Leader established very 'Close con-nections between the General SS and the Police?
VON EBERSTEIN: No. The SS and Police were separate organi-zations and were only united at the top, in the person of Himmler. The General SS and the Police had entirely separate tasks.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't understand what you, are saying. I thought you said that you were the head of the SS in Munich and also the Police President.
HERR PELCKMANN: Mr. President, in order to inform the Court ...
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you say that you were the head of the SS in Munich and the south and also Police President?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you say the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler.
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes. The sphere of duty of the Higher SS and Police Leader-I have not yet had an opportunity to describe this-he had no power of command over the Police, but he was only a representative of Himmler, without any power to issue orders. Thereby ...
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that you had no power to give orders to the Police?
VON EBERSTEIN: In Munich, as Police President, yes. That was my state office that was my profession. In other towns, how-ever, where the Oberabschnittsfuehrer was not Police chief, he could not ...
THE PRESIDENT: I am talking about Munich. In Munich you were the head of the SS and you were a lso Police President?
VON EBERSTEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The two organizations were united in you, is that right?
VON EBERSTEIN: In my case, yes, but not generally.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not talking about generally, I am talk-ing about Munich. Then you go on to say that the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler. Those two state-ments seem to me to be contradictory.
VON EBERSTEIN: I remarked before that only in three cases in all Germany were the Police Presidents at the same time leaders of the General SS. It was an exception in my case, in Munich, in DfIsseldorf, and in Nuremberg. Otherwise ...
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said Dresden, too.
VON EBERSTEIN: In Dresden I was not in the Police.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not say you were. I thought you said the Police President in Dresden was also the head of the SS.
VON EBERSTEIN: No, that must have been misunderstood. I did not say that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, the misunderstanding probably arose because of a third function which has not yet been discussed. Please tell us, did the following three positions have any basic connection with each other: First, the Police President, secondly, the Higher SS and Police Leader, and thirdly, the SS Oberab-schnittsfuehrer? As a matter of fundamental principle, did these three have any personal connection in their structure?
VON EBERSTEIN: No, that in Munich was an exception. In my case they actually coincided but not in other parts of the Reich.
HERR PELCKMANN: And now please distinguish between police president and Higher SS and Police Leader. Please make clear to the Court what the difference is between these two positions.
VON EBERSTEIN: The police president was a state adminis-trative official, while the position of Higher SS and Police Leader was created only during the war, without being designated an official authority or a regional commander; for according to the official instructions from the Reich Minister of the Interior, his sole task was to represent the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police in his defense area (Wehrkreis). He did not have any authority to issue orders to the Police. According to the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior, the chiefs of the main offices of the Order Police and Security Police remained the superiors of the Police. The power to issue orders rested with them. They used their own chain of command, while the Higher SS and Police Leader was secondary to them, without any authority to issue orders to the Police.
HERR PELCKMANN: And now, please, answer the question: Is the assertion of the Prosecution correct, that the Higher SS and Police Leader formed a close connection between the General SS and the Police?
VON EBERSTEIN: That was impossible ...
THE PRESIDENT: You have already asked him that once and he has answered it. Let us go on to the next question.
HERR PELCKMANN: Is the more sweeping assertion of the Prosecution correct, that the General SS and the Police officially formed one unit, and so was a state within a state? Is this asser-tion correct?
VON EBERSTEIN: No.
HERR PELCKMANN: Or this question, since I do not want to burden the High Tribunal with details, I shall refer to the deposi-tions in the affidavits, Number SS-86 to Number SS-88, which I shall hand in later. You have already said, Witness, that the Higher SS and Police Leader had no power to issue orders to the Order Police or to the Security Police. But did the Higher SS and Police Leader have the power to issue orders to the Waffen-SS or to the General SS?
VON EBERSTEIN: The Higher SS and Police Leader had no power to issue orders to the Waffen-SS; to the General SS only if he was leader of the SS Oberabschnitt of the General SS at the same time, not otherwise. I ask to be allowed to add something to my previous answer. The Higher SS and Police Leader had the right, but not the duty, to carry out inspections, and he could make suggestions. For my part, I am only in a position to testify on the activities of the Higher SS and Police Leader in the home territory. What the procedure was in the occupied territories I cannot judge. I