dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. SIEMERS: Whom did you get in touch with in the High Command of the Navy, and what did you learn?
FRITZSCHE: First of all, I spoke to the officer who was with me, whom I have just mentioned, Kapitanleutnant Hahn. Then he telephoned, and in all probability I phoned, too, to the OKM (the High Command of the Navy). As far as I recall, I spoke to Korvettenkapitan Wolf.
DR. SIEMERS: And what did Korvettenkapitan Wolf tell you?
FRITZSCHE: He told me already at this early stage that no German U-boat was in the area in question.
DR. SIEMERS: I should like to remind you that the Athenia was sunk on 4 September 1939. What did the Propaganda Ministry do after the High Command of the Navy had stated that it was not a German U-boat which had sunk the ship?
FRITZSCHE: Then this report was announced.
DR. SIEMERS: Herr Fritzsche, how did it happen that about 6 to 7 weeks later the article, "Churchill Sinks the Athenia ," appeared, which was published on 23 October 1939? Shall I show you the article?
FRITZSCHE: Thank you, no. I remember this incident especially well, as I have checked my memory about it since this case was mentioned again for the first time here in the Court. I know that Hitler himself ordered this article to be written, giving detailed instructions. The order to write the article came through two different channels: First, through a telephone call by the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich; and secondly through a telephone call by Dr Goebbels or one of his officials-I am not able to tell you which of the two. This order was to be transmitted to the Volkischer Beobachter . Now we come to the circumstances on account of which I remember the details. When I told one of my co-workers to inform the Volkischer Beobachter , he came back to me with the report that it would not be necessary because the Volkischer Beobachter had already heard the necessary details directly from the Fuehrer's headquarters.
DR. SIEMERS: When was this order given by Hitler, or rather, Goebbels?
FRITZSCHE: The day before it appeared, I assume.
DR. SIEMERS: Did any office in the High Command of the Navy have any connection with this article?
FRITZSCHE: According to my knowledge, no.
DR. SIEMERS: Before this article was published, did you speak with Grossadmiral Raeder about this article, or did you advise him of the order given by Hitler in this direction?
FRITZSCHE: No, I believe that the High Command of the Navy had no knowledge of the article at all. The article originated in the manner that I have just described to you.
DR. SIEMERS: Did you at any time speak with anyone in the High Command of the Navy, or with Grossadmiral Raeder about this case?
FRITZSCHE: Only here in the prison.
DR. SIEMERS: Herr Fritzsche, is it correct that in September of 1939 the Times claimed that in Czechoslovakia Germans had murdered 10,000 Czechs at Prague, including the Lord Mayor?
FRITZSCHE: I do not know whether that was published in the Times , but at any rate it was published in the News Chronicle .
DR. SIEMERS: What did the Propaganda Ministry undertake to do thereupon?
FRITZSCHE: German and foreign journalists were taken to Prague. If I am not mistaken, one of the foreign journalists who went along to Prague on that trip is present in this courtroom.
DR. SIEMERS: What did these foreign journalists find out?
FRITZSCHE: They had an interview with the Lord Mayor of Prague, who allegedly had been killed; they traveled about the country, and they reported accordingly.
DR. SIEMERS: According to that, the report was clearly untrue?
FRITZSCHE: At that time this report was shown to be quite false. However; I must add that since Monday of this week, since the testimony given by Herr Von Neurath, it has become quite clear to me that under cover of this great and effective denial an action of arrests was actually carried out in Czechoslovakia. I must add this; I have to clarify this. And if...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, how does this affect Raeder?
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I believe that in a certain way it is a parallel case to the article in the Volkischer Beobachter , which the Prosecution is stressing for reasons not quite clear to me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the evidence is not competent.
DR. SIEMERS: Herr Fritzsche, do you know what Dr. Goebbels' attitude was to Grossadmiral Raeder?
FRITZSCHE: From the few statements which Goebbels made about Grossadmiral Raeder it could be seen that he had an adverse attitude toward him. His reason, frequently expressed was Raeder's negative attitude toward the Party and the Party's wishes and his positive attitude on Church matters, including the protection which he accorded Navy clergymen who were subject to attacks on the part of the Party.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
DR. HORN: Witness, you stated that a General Niedermeier was present at the conference which took place between Molotov and Ribbentrop. Just where did you get your information?
FRITZSCHE: There is a mistake contained in your question. I did not say that General Niedermeier participated in this conference. What I did say was-and I shall be a little more explicit-that during my imprisonment I ran into this General Niedermeier who, for weeks or months just before that time, had shared a cell with the interpreter who had the task of interpreting the discussion of Molotov and Ribbentrop.
DR. HORN: Did General Niedermeier give you the name of this interpreter?
FRITZSCHE: Without doubt, but I did not try to remember it.
DR. HORN: I have one more question. After the last discussion on 30 August 1939 between the British Ambassador Sir Nevile Henderson and the then Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop, in which the conditions for negotiating with Poland were made public, these conditions were published the next day in the Daily Telegraph ; and allegedly this issue of the paper was recalled. What do you know about this article?
FRITZSCHE: First of all, I should like to correct another error which has found its way into your question. On the following morning in question, the Daily Telegraph did not publish the conditions or the note, but only published a report that during the preceding night the British Government had been in consultation on the German demands to Poland, conditions which had been transmitted to them by their Ambassador in Berlin. Therefore it could be seen from this article-at any rate, it could not be interpreted in any other way-that these conditions were known in London.
DR. HORN: Thank you very much.
DR. THOMA: Herr Fritzsche, you stated yesterday that the Volkischer Beobachter was in direct contact with the Fuehrer and with the Fuehrer's headquarters throughout the war. What individual members on the staff of the Volkischer Beobachter were you referring to?
FRITZSCHE: I was not especially referring to people in the Volkischer Beobachter ; I was thinking mainly of people at the Fuehrer's headquarters. So, Dr. Dietrich and his delegates made it their business always to call the Volkischer Beobachter directly.
DR. THOMA: You know that Rosenberg was no longer the chief editor of the Volkischer Beobachter after 1937?
FRITZSCHE: I am of the conviction that even before that time he held that position in name only.
DR. THOMA: Witness, can you tell the Court, as far as the socalled actions of the Party were concerned-for instance the burning of the books, the boycott in April of 1933, the pogrom in November of 1938-who the driving force in all of these actions was?
FRITZSCHE: Today I am of the firm conviction that it was Dr. Goebbels.
DR. THOMA: Witness, do you know that Goebbels, whenever Hitler was in Berlin, always was Hitler's guest?
FRITZSCHE: That does not hold quite true. Years before the war Dr. Goebbels saw Hitler, without doubt, only rarely.
DR. THOMA: I have another question. Do you know that Goebbels had a direct telephone line to Hitler?
FRITZSCHE: That is news to me. This is the first time I heard of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, this has nothing to do with Rosenberg, has it, the fact that Goebbels had a direct line to Hitler?
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I wanted only to ask Fritzsche by that whether Rosenberg had the same connection with Hitler as Goebbels.
FRITZSCHE: I do not know what telephone lines Rosenberg had, but I know and I have heard frequently that Rosenberg seldom visited Hitler.
DR. THOMA: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other defendant's counsel who wants to ask questions? [There was no response.]
THE PRESIDENT: Then we will recess. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): I should like to begin the cross-examination in determining the role which German propaganda played in the criminal activity of the Hitler Government. Tell me, do you admit that German propaganda disseminated racial theories and introduced into the minds of the German people the ideas of the superiority of the German race- that means, the idea of the "master race"? Do you admit that?
FRITZSCHE: The question touches upon two problems. May I reply to both of them? I admit that German propaganda spread the racial theory, but I deny that German propaganda spread the theory of the "master race."
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not admit it?
FRITZSCHE: No.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You admit that the German propaganda incited in the German people racial hatred toward the Jews and propagated the necessity of their extermination?
FRITZSCHE: Once again two problems are contained in this question. May I answer to both?
GEN. RUDENKO: I beg your pardon, you do not have to emphasize this. Just answer the question; if there are two, answer two.
FRITZSCHE: I admit, as I have done in my answer to your first question, that German propaganda spread the racial theory but I deny most emphatically that German propaganda, had made preparations for, or had called for, the mass murder of Jews.
GEN. RUDENKO: But you do not deny that German propaganda preached to the German people racial hatred toward Jews? You do not deny that?
FRITZSCHE: I cannot even affirm that without reserve. That is the reason why, in my answer to the second question, I made a slight distinction. German propaganda, and under that I understand official German propaganda, did not even preach racial hatred. It only spoke about racial distinctions, and that is something quite different; but I will admit that there was a certain type of German propaganda which went beyond that and which did preach the clear-cut and primitive racial hatred.
GEN. RUDENKO: You will admit that the activity of German propaganda was also directed against the Church?
FRITZSCHE: No, even that I have to deny.
GEN. RUDENKO: Will you pretend that the German propaganda was not directed toward the persecution of the Church?
FRITZSCHE: That is exactly what I wanted to say. The official German propaganda did not persecute the churches. On the other hand, in order to clear up this point for you, here again there was an unofficial, illegal propaganda which preached against the Church. However, the State and its organizations, during the time of the struggle with the Church, made many utterances and declarations which might have created an impression as if they had participated in the struggle against the churches. By this I mean the trials against clergymen which were given sensational importance.
GEM. RUDENKO: Very well. You will admit that the propaganda conducted by the Hitlerite Government in connection with the so-called problem of the expansion of the Lebensraum of Germany, cultivated and developed in the German nation militaristic tendencies.
FRITZSCHE: I deny that, too, and most emphatically.
GEN. RUDENKO: Do you admit that German propaganda used provocative methods, lies, and slander in order to camouflage the aggressive plans of the Hitlerite Government?
FRITZSCHE: Mr. Prosecutor, it is most difficult for me to answer that question after all I have voluntarily testified to in this courtroom yesterday. If I am to make the attempt to summarize very briefly, then I shall have to say this: I maintain that the German propaganda gave the German nation in the case of every individual action which was carried out, from the occupation of the Rhineland to the attack against the Soviet Union, a picture of the events which, among the Germans, must have created the impression that we were in the right. On the other hand, however, I myself-and I explained already when this happened-had recognized that the structure of these arguments had a basis which was shaky in various respects.
GEN. RUDENKO: That is to say, on the basis of lies and slander?
FRITZSCHE: No. Please let me apologize, but your way of putting it does not appear to be quite factual enough.
GEN. RUDENKO: You will persist then in denying that German propaganda used methods of slander and lies; you do deny this?
FRITZSCHE: Yes, certainly, I deny it, based on my thorough knowledge of German propaganda; and I should like you to permit me to give you a very brief explanation in this connection.
GEN. RUDENKO: Please, will you give an explanation, but directly, to my question?
FRITZSCHE: But of course. Looking at it today, it was the misfortune of the German people that its propaganda, particularly with regard to those details which can be checked and controlled, was so clean that it was completely overlooked that in its three basic principles there were three fundamental mistakes. I cannot be more explicit.
GEN. RUDENKO: What kind of mistakes are you speaking about?
FRITZSCHE: The first, the trust in Adolf Hitler's humaneness, which was destroyed by the order to murder 5 million people; the second, the trust in the ethical purity of the system, which was destroyed by the orders to apply torture; and the third, the absolute trust in Adolf Hitler's peaceful intentions, shaken by what has been brought up in this courtroom.
GEN. RUDENKO: Well, we shall revert to these questions later when we speak about your personal participation in the conducting of the German propaganda. I should like to ask you now the following: Of course you were aware that in the OKW there was a special section for propaganda, which was subordinate directly to Defendant Jodl?
FRITZSCHE: That was known to me, but you are mistaken if you are under the impression that that department was under Defendant Jodl. It was under the jurisdiction of General Von Wedel and he was succeeded by Standartenfuehrer Gunther d'Alquen.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I do not wish to deal with this subject any longer, at the moment. I am interested in something else; what were the relations between the Ministry of Propaganda and the OKW?
FRITZSCHE: I cannot tell you what they were between the Ministry of Propaganda and the OKW in general, but I can give you detailed information about the relationship between the Ministry of Propaganda and the Propaganda Department of the OKW which you have just mentioned. A permanent representative from that department worked in the ministerial office of Dr. Goebbels. He participated daily in the ministry conferences which I have already mentioned once, he who was really always to be found in close proximity to Dr. Goebbels.
GEN. RUDENKO: Who gave the propaganda tasks and the directives to the OKW?
FRITZSCHE: I can only imagine that the propaganda tasks of the OKW were drawn up according to Dr. Goebbels' wishes and to the instructions of the Chief of the OKW, which was Keitel or Jodl.
GEN. RUDENKO: How was the general German propaganda applied with regard to the propaganda tasks and measures taken by the OKW?
FRITZSCHE: I am afraid I do not quite understand the meaning of your question.
GEN. RUDENKO: How was the general German propaganda brought into line with the propaganda measures taken by the OKW?
FRITZSCHE: Very probably it was just fitted into the propaganda measures adopted by the OKW, because Dr. Goebbels was so strong a personality that he would not have tolerated any disregard of his propagandist principles.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. I would like to have your answer to the following question: What relations existed between the Ministry of Propaganda and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?
FRITZSCHE: Sometimes relations were a bit tense, but during the later years of the war a representative from the Foreign Ministry participated always in the ministry conferences of the Propaganda Ministry.
GEN. RUDENKO: What part did the Ministry of Foreign Affairs play in the carrying out of propaganda measures especially in connection with the preparation and execution of aggressive wars?
FRITZSCHE: May I say the following to this: At the very beginning of an action of war, a representative from the Foreign Office used to appear with a completed document book, a White Book . I know nothing about the origin of these White Books . At any rate, they were not prepared in the Ministry of Propaganda. In a few cases I later received some knowledge of their compilation in the Foreign Office.
GEN. RUDENKO: Would it be correct to make the following deduction: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs participated directly and actively in the preparation of propaganda tasks and directives; is that correct?
FRITZSCHE: No doubt that is true because the Foreign Minister reserved for himself the decisive word with reference to propaganda which was connected with foreign policy or any propaganda which went abroad.
GEN. RUDENKO: Did you have in mind Defendant Ribbentrop when you just replied and when you spoke about the role of the Foreign Minister?
FRITZSCHE: Of course.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. You acknowledge and maintain that Defendant Ribbentrop personally gave out the propaganda orders for explaining the attack on the Soviet Union as a preventive war?
FRITZSCHE: That question cannot be answered with "yes" or "no" but with a very brief description of the facts. The then Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop received, in the early morning hours of the day when the Russian campaign started, the foreign press correspondents and the German press. He put a White Book before them and he went on to explain in a speech what the situation was and concluded with the following emphatic statement: "For all these reasons Germany was forced to begin this attack against the Soviet Union in order to forestall a Soviet attack. I ask you, gentlemen of the press, to please present the facts in this manner."
GEN. RUDENKO: I should like to determine by this that the propaganda tasks were given by Defendant Ribbentrop himself. Do you admit it?
FRITZSCHE: I beg to apologize, but I have admitted exactly what I have said. Your last question is a conclusion based on what I have said, and to that I do not want to agree.
GEN. RUDENKO: However, replying to my previous question you spoke about the decisive role of Defendant Ribbentrop in questions concerning the carrying out of the foreign policy propaganda; is that correct?
FRITZSCHE: Perfectly correct.
GEN. RUDENKO: Well. It is enough; let us skip that question. Tell me now what were the relations between the Ministry of Propaganda and the so-called Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories? Please explain to me in this connection how these two Ministries collaborated and what the relations were between them?
FRITZSCHE: There was a permanent liaison officer who was a member both of the Eastern Ministry and the Ministry of Propaganda; and beyond that, there was an institution which had been founded by both Ministries jointly and which was jointly administrated by them. It was the institution called "Vineta," which dealt with the entire propaganda in the East.
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, I understand. By what order-or who prepared the propaganda slogans, as you called them in Germany, which were intended for the occupied territories? Who planned and prepared them?
FRITZSCHE: I cannot tell you under oath, because I am not sure about it, but it is my assumption that they were developed based on the existing principles of general propaganda by Dr. Tauber who was mentioned, and his associates, in this Vineta institute.
GEN. RUDENKO: Very well. But apparently you are aware of the fact and will confirm that the leading influence of the Ministry of Propaganda has been maintained in all these measures.
FRITZSCHE: Quite definitely. Indubitably the Ministry of Propaganda had the superior initiative here and the greater influence.
GEN. RUDENKO: That is clear. Now tell me, what kind of influence did the Defendant Bormann have on German propaganda? What role did he play in this respect?
FRITZSCHE: That role was unusually great. I know that it is somewhat frowned upon when statements are made here about a man who presumably is dead. In the interests of the historic truth, however, I shall nevertheless have to tell you the following.. .
GEN. RUDENKO: We do not know yet whether Bormann is dead. We know only that he is not present on the defendants' bench; but he is, however, one of the defendants. Go on, please.
FRITZSCHE: The influence of the Defendant Bormann was unusually strong not only in all the other fields but also in the propaganda sector. It became apparent in the following: First, in the general type of Party agitation which I mentioned yesterday, that of the most radical trend. A teleprint message from Bormann to Dr. Goebbels with, shall we say, the following contents: I heard complaints from Party circles regarding this, that, or the other, would always be the cause of a rapid acceleration of Dr. Goebbels' entire machinery. Second-and this is something which I cannot express under oath in other words-Dr. Goebbels was quite clearly afraid of Martin Bormann. And he always tried scrupulously to justify in Bormann's eyes any actions of his which might have been misinterpreted by radical elements in the Party.
GEN. RUDENKO: Perhaps you will tell us who else of the defendants who were not named here during my cross-examination actively participated in the propaganda activities, and in what way. Maybe you would rather not tell us anything about the defendants who are present here.
FRITZSCHE: I certainly would rather not, but I shall answer.
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes, please.
FRITZSCHE: By the way, a very favorable influence on propaganda was exercised by one of the offices of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner. Whether he was responsible for it in person I do not know, but here are the facts: During the struggle for realistic news service which I mentioned yesterday, I repeatedly met with resistance from the Party and the Foreign Office; but I found the support of a department of the RSHA, the name of which I have forgotten, most useful. This department used to issue reports about the general frame of mind or temper of the German people, and these reports were distributed to various supreme authorities in the Reich. In these reports showing the mood of the people there was frequent praise for realistic news, the very thing which had been combated by the other two parties which I have mentioned.
GEN. RUDENKO: You just mentioned the office of Defendant Kaltenbrunner. Who else of the defendants could you name?
FRITZSCHE: None of the others played a part in German propaganda.
GEN. RUDENKO: Defendant Hess is not present here, but did he have any influence or not?
FRITZSCHE: Most unfortunately not.
GEN. RUDENKO: Why do you say "unfortunately"?
FRITZSCHE: During the period when he was still in office, he fulfilled a very beneficial task. He was, shall we say, the "complaint department" for all shortcomings in the Party and the State. I wish he could have continued...