dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, I have the original document in my hands now, together with the certificate of an officer of the British Army stating that the document was delivered to him in the above capacity, in the ordinary course of official business, as the original of a document found in German records of files captured by military forces under the command of the Supreme Commander. Under these circumstances it is in exactly the same position as all the other captured documents. The defense, of course, can bring any evidence which it thinks right, to criticize the authenticity of the document. The document stands on exactly the same footing as the other captured documents, subject to any criticism to support which you may be able to bring evidence.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Witness, I want you to deal with the sentence in paragraph 6. Now, this paragraph is certainly directed to all administrative levels down to the Kreisleiter, county leaders of the Nazi Party, and it assumes they knew all about the running of concentration camps. Are you telling the Tribunal that you, who up to 1943 were the second man in the Reich, knew nothing about concentration camps? Goering: First of all, I want to say once more that I do not accept this document, and that its whole wording is unknown to me, and that this paragraph appears unusual to me. I did not know anything about what took place and what methods were used in the concentration camps later, when I was no longer in charge.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me remind you of the evidence that has been given before this Court, that as far as Auschwitz alone is concerned, 4,000,000 people were exterminated. Do you remember that? Goering: This I have heard as a statement here, but I consider it in no way proved -- that figure, I mean.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If you do not consider it proved, let me remind you of the affidavit of Hoettl, who was Deputy Group Leader of the Foreign Section, of the Security Section of Amt IV of the RSHA. He says that approximately 4,000,000 Jews have been killed in the concentration camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways. Assume that these figures -- one is a Russian figure, the other a German -- assume they are even 50 percent correct, assume it was 2,000,000 and 1,000,000, are you telling this Tribunal that a Minister with your power in the Reich could remain ignorant that that was going on? Goering: This I maintain, and the reason for this is that these things were kept secret from me. I might add that in my opinion not even the Fuehrer knew the extent of what was going on. This is also explained by the fact that Himmler kept all these matters very secret. We were never given figures or any other details.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But, Witness, haven't you access to the foreign press, the press department in your ministry, to foreign broadcasts? You see, there is evidence that altogether, when you take the Jews and other people, something like 10,000,000 people have been done to death in cold blood, apart from those killed in battle. Something like 10,000,000 people. Do you say that you never saw or heard from the foreign press, in broadcasts, that this was going on? Goering: First of all, the figure 10,000,000 is not established in any way. Secondly, throughout the war I did not read the foreign press, because I considered it nothing but propaganda. Thirdly, though I had the right to listen to foreign broadcasts, I never did so, simply because I did not want to listen to propaganda. Neither did I listen to home propaganda. Only during the last 4 days of the war did I -- and this I could prove -- listen to a foreign broadcasting station for the first time.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You told Mr. Justice Jackson yesterday that there were various representatives in Eastern territories, and you have seen the films of the concentration ramps, haven't you, since this Trial started? You knew that there were millions of garments, millions of shoes, 20,952 kilograms of gold wedding rings, 35 wagons of furs -- all that stuff which these people who were exterminated at Maidanek or Auschwitz left behind them. Did nobody ever tell you, under the development of the Four Year Plan, or anyone else, that they were getting all these amounts of human material? Do you remember we heard from the Polish Jewish gentleman, who gave evidence, that all he got back from his family, of his wife and mother and daughter, I think, were their identity cards? His work was to gather up clothes. He told us that so thorough were the henchmen of your friend Himmler that it took 5 minutes extra to kill the women because they had to have their hair cut off as it was to be used for making mattresses. Was nothing ever told you about this accretion to German material, which came from the effects of these people who were murdered? Goering: No, and how can you imagine this? I was laying down the broad outlines for the German economy, and that certainly did not include the manufacture of mattresses from women's hair or the utilization of old shoes and clothes. I leave the figure open. But, also I do want to object to your reference to my "friend Himmler."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I will say, "your enemy Himmler," or simply "Himmler" whichever you like. You know whom I mean, don't you? Goering: Yes, indeed.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, I just want to remind you of one other point: Exhibit Number USA-228, Document Number 407(V)-PS, " . . . I have the honor to report to you that it was possible to add 3,638,056 new foreign workers to the German war economy between April 1st of last year and March 31st of this year... In addition to the foreign civilian workers 1,622,929 prisoners of war are employed in the German economy." Now, just listen to this, "out of the 5,000,000 foreign workers who have arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily." That is from the minutes of the Central Planning Board on the 1st of March. Do you say that you, in your position in the State and as the great architect of German economy, did not know that you were getting for your economy 4,800,000 foreign workers who were forced to come? Do you tell the Tribunal that? Goering: I never told the Tribunal that. I said that I knew quite well that these workers were brought in and not always voluntarily, but whether the figure of 200,000 is correct, that I do not know, and I do not believe it either. The number of volunteers was greater, but this does not alter the fact that workers were forced to come to the Reich. That I have never denied, and have even admitted it.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You admit -- and I want to put it quite fairly -- that a large number of workers were forced to come to the Reich and work there? Goering: Yes, certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, would you like to adjourn now?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, sir. [The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember what you said about the relations between you and the Fuehrer? May I repeat your words: That is your view on that matter? Goering: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think you told the Tribunal that right up to the end your loyalty to the Fuehrer was unshaken, is that right? Goering: That is correct.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you still seek to justify and glorify Hitler after he had ordered the murder of these 50 young flying officers at Stalag Luft Number III? Goering: I am here neither to justify the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler nor to glorify him. I am here only to emphasize that I remained faithful to him, for I believe in keeping one's oath not in good times only, but also in bad times when it is much more difficult. As to your reference to the 50 airmen, I never opposed the Fuehrer so clearly and strongly as in this matter, and I gave him my views about it. After that no conversation between the Fuehrer and myself took place for months.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Fuehrer, at any rate, must have had full knowledge of what was happening with regard to concentration camps, the treatment of the Jews, and the treatment of the workers, must he not? Goering: I already mentioned it as my opinion that the Fuehrer did not know about details in concentration camps, about atrocities as described here. As far as I know him, I do not believe he was informed. But insofar as he ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am not asking about details; I am asking about the murder of four or five million people. Are you suggesting that nobody in power in Germany, except Himmler and perhaps Kaltenbrunner, knew about that? Goering: I am still of the opinion that the Fuehrer did not know about these figures.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, you remember how Mr. Dahlerus described the relations between you and Hitler on Page 53 of his book: Is that how you had to behave with Hitler? Goering: I did not have to behave in that way, and I did not behave in that way. Those are journalistic statements by Dahlerus, made after the war. If Germany had won the war, this description would certainly have been very different.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Mr. Dahlerus was your witness, though. Goering: Mr. Dahlerus was not asked to give a journalistic account. He was solely questioned about the matters with which he, as courier between myself and the British Government, had to deal.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, on Tuesday of last week, the defendant called General Bodenschatz, who gave general evidence as to his character and reputation. He, therefore, in my respectful submission, makes me entitled to put one document to him which is an account by the Defendant Raeder of his general character and reputation. In accordance with the English practice, I make my submission and ask the Court's permission to put it in.
DR. STAHMER: I object to the reading of this document. It would be considerably easier to question Admiral Raeder, as witness, on his statements, since he is here with us. Then we shall be able to determine in cross-examination whether and to what extent he still maintains this alleged statement.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have to put it in cross-examination to give the defendant the chance of answering it. The Defendant Raeder can give his explanations when he comes into the witness box.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to look at the document before it is put in.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That is the English translation. I will show Dr. Stahmer the German.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I should like to point out, that the document bears no date and we do not know when and where it was drawn up,
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It is signed by the Defendant Raeder.
DR. STAHMER: When and where was it drawn up? The signature of Raeder is unknown to me.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The date is in Raeder's handwriting as is the signature; the 27th of July, I think it is 1945. Each page of the document is signed by the Defendant Raeder.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, you said the defendant has put his character in issue through Bodenschatz?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Lordship will remember he was asked by Doctor Stahmer: "Will you now tell me about the defendant's social relations?" And then he proceeded to give an account of his character and his kindness and other qualities at that time; and I notice that Doctor Stahmer has just included as an exhibit still further evidence as to character in the form of a statement by one Hermann Winter.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it not have been appropriate, if the document was to have been put in evidence, to have put it to Bodenschatz, who was giving the evidence?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But, My Lord, the rule is that if the defendant puts his character in issue, he is entitled to be crossexamined on his character and his general reputation, and of course it is permissible to call a witness to speak as to his general reputation.
DR. STAHMER: May I make the following remark? I did not call Bodenschatz, neither did I question him as witness for Goering's character. I questioned him about certain facts and happenings from which Bodenschatz subsequently drew certain conclusions. In my opinion, all these questions should have been put to Bodenschatz when he was here. These statements could then have been used to prove that it was Bodenschatz who was not telling the truth, not that Goering had told an untruth. To prove this the document should have been used during Bodenschatz's interrogation. Then we would have been able to question Bodenschatz about it too.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: He may prefer that Bodenschatz be brought back and it be put to him, but I think I am entitled to put it to the defendant who called for the evidence as to his character and reputation.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal rules that at the present stage, this document cannot be used in cross-examination.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Honor please, I understand that Your Lordship leaves open the question for further argument, whether it can be used for the Defendant Raeder in the witness box.
TBE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am much obliged. [Turning to the witness.] Now, Witness, you said before the Tribunal adjourned, that Hitler, in your opinion, did not know about - broadly -- or was ignorant about, the question of concentration camps and the Jews. I would like you to look at Document Number D-736. That is an account of a discussion between the Fuehrer and the Hungarian Regent Horthy on the l7th of April 1943, and if you would look at Page 4, you will see the passage just after "Nuremberg and Furth." Goering: Just a moment. I should like to read through it very quickly to determine its authenticity.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Certainly. Goering: Page 4.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Page 4 -- Exhibit Number GB-283. You see, after the mention of Nuremberg and Furth, Hitler goes on: And would you look at Exhibit USSR-170, Document Number USSR-170, which is a conference which you had on the 6th of August 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: Before you pass from this document, is there not a passage higher up that is important? It is about 10 lines down, I think, in the middle of the line ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Honor is correct. Goering: I do not know this document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, this is a conference which you had with a number of people, and on Page 143, if you will turn to it, you get on to the question of butter. If you will look where it says: "Reich Marshal Goering: How much butter do you deliver? 30,000 tons?" Do you see that? Goering: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And then Lohse, who is in the conference, says, "Yes," and you say, "Do you also deliver to Wehrmacht units?" and then Lohse says, "I can answer that too. There are only a few Jews left alive. Tens of thousands have been disposed of, but I can tell you that the civilian population gets, on your orders, 15 percent less than the Germans." I call your attention to the statement that "there are only a few Jews left alive, tens of thousands have been disposed of." Do you still say, in the face of these two documents, that neither Hitler nor yourself knew that the Jews were being exterminated? Goering: I beg that the remarks be rightly read. They are quite incorrectly reproduced. May I read the original text? "Lohse:" -- thus not my remark, but the remark of Lohse -- "I can also answer that. The Jews are left only in small numbers. Thousands have gone." It does not say here that they were destroyed. From this remark you cannot conclude that they were killed. It could also mean that they had gone away -- they were removed. There is nothing here ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: About the preceding remark, I suggest that you make quite clear what you meant by "there, are only a few Jews left alive, whereas tens of thousands have been disposed of." Goering: They were "still living there." That is how you should understand that.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You heard what I read to you about Hitler, what he said to Horthy and what Ribbentrop said, that the Jews must be exterminated or taken to concentration camps. Hitler said the Jews must either work or be shot. That was in April 1943. Do you still say that neither Hitler nor you knew of this policy to exterminate the Jews? Goering: For the correctness of the document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Will you please answer my question. Do you still say neither Hitler nor you knew of the policy to exterminate the Jews? Goering: As far as Hitler is concerned, I have said I do not think so. As far as I am concerned, I have said that I did not know, even approximately, to what extent these things were taking place.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You did not know to what degree, but you knew there was a policy that aimed at the extermination of the Jews? Goering: No, a policy of emigration, not liquidation of the Jews. I knew only that there had been isolated cases of such perpetrations.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Thank you.
GEN. RU DENKO: If I understand you, Defendant Goering, you said that all the basic decisions concerning foreign, political, and military matters were taken by Hitler alone? Do I understand you rightly? Goering: Yes, certainly. After all, he was the Fuehrer.
GEN. RUDENKO: Am I to understand that Hitler took these decisions without listening to the opinions of the experts who studied the questions, and the intelligence reports on those matters? Goering: It depended upon the circumstances. In certain cases he would ask for data to be submitted to him, without the experts knowing the exact reason. In other cases, he would explain to his advisers what he intended to do, and get from them the data and their opinion. Final decisions he took himself as Supreme Commander.
GEN. RUDENKO: In that case, do I understand you correctly when you say that when making important decisions, Hitler used the analysis and material given to him by his close collaborators, who advised him according to their speciality. Is that correct? Goering: Given to him partly by his collaborators, partly as in the case of communication and intelligence, by other members of the departments concerned.
GEN. RUDENKO: Will you tell me then, who was the closest collaborator of Hitler as far as the Air Force was concerned? Goering: I was, of course.
GEN. RUDENKO: And on the questions of economics? Goering: In economic matters, it was also I.
GEN. RUDENKO: And on political matters? Goering: It depended on what question came up for discussion, and on whether the Fuehrer had consulted anybody or asked his opinion.
GEN. RUDENKO: Can you tell me, who were these collaborators and associates? Goering: The close collaborators of the Fuehrer as I said before were first I, myself. Another close associate -- perhaps it is the wrong word -- with whom he perhaps spoke more than with others was Dr. Goebbels. Then, of course, you must consider the different periods. It varied during the 20 years; towards the end, it was Bormann first and foremost. During the years 1933 and 1934, until shortly before the end, it was Himmler also, when certain questions were dealt with. And if the Fuehrer was dealing with certain other specific questions, then he would, of course, as is the custom in every government, consult the person who knew most about the question and obtain the information from him.
GEN. RUDENKO: Can you also name which of his collaborators were associated with him in the field of foreign politics? Goering: As far as foreign policy was concerned, Hitler only consulted his colleagues more on the, so to speak, purely technical side. The most important and far-reaching political decisions were taken by himself, and he then announced them to his collaborators and colleagues as ready-made conceptions. Only very few people were allowed to discuss them, myself for instance; and the technical execution of his decisions in the field of foreign policy, when it came to framing the diplomatic notes, was done by the Foreign Office and its minister.
GEN. RUDENKO: The Defendant Ribbentrop? Goering: Yes, naturally, he was the foreign minister concerned but he did not make foreign policy.
GEN. RUDENKO: And on questions of strategy, who advised Hitler? Goering: There were several people. On purely departmental matters of strategic importance it was the three commanders-in-chief and their chiefs of general staff, and to some extent, the Supreme General Staff which was immediately attached to the Fuehrer.
GEN. RUDENKO: Which of the defendants can be placed in the category of such consultants? Goering: If he was asked by the Fuehrer, then the adviser on strategic matters was the Chief of the Operations Staff, General Jodl; and as far as military administrative questions were concerned, the commanders-in-chief, that is myself, Admiral Raeder, and later Admiral Doenitz for the Navy. The other representatives of the Army did not take part.
GEN. RUDENKO: The next question. If we approach the subject, not theoretically but functionally, could we conclude that any recommendations which Hitler's leading associates might make, would have had any considerable influence on Hitler's final decisions? Goering: If I disregard the purely formal point of view and presumably you are referring to the military sphere, then the position was...
GEN. RUDENKO: No, I mean all spheres. All aspects of questions such as economic questions, home policy, foreign policy, military, and strategic questions. I mean, if we approach the subject, not theoretically but functionally, did their recommendations have any considerable influence on Hitler's final decisions? That is what I mean. Goering: To a certain extent, yes. Their rejection depended on whether or not they appeared right to the Fuehrer.
GEN. RUDENKO: You said to a certain extent, did you not? Goering: Yes, of course, if a reasonable proposal was made, and he considered it to be reasonable, then he certainly made use of it.
GEN. RUDENKO: I should like to stress that all these consultants must have been closely associated with Hitler. Therefore, they had a certain influence on Hitler's final decision. They did not stand quite aloof, did they? Goering: They did not stand aloof. Their influence was only effective to the extent that their convictions concurred with those of the Fuehrer.
GEN. RUDENKO: That is clear. Let us now pass to the next set of questions. When exactly did you start the working out of the plan of action for the use of the German Luftwaffe against the Soviet Union in connection with Case Barbarossa? Goering: The deployment of the Luftwaffe for Case Barbarossa was worked out by my general staff, after the first directive of the Fuehrer's, that is, after the November directive.
GEN. RUDENKO: In 1940? Goering: In 1940. But I would add that I had already considered making preparations not only in anticipation of a possible threat from Russia, but from all those countries which were not already involved in the war, but which might eventually be drawn in.
GEN. RUDENKO: All right. It was in November 1940, when Germany was preparing to attack Russia? Plans were already being prepared for this attack with your participation? Goering: The other day I explained exactly, that at the time a plan for dealing with the political situation and the potential threat from Russia had been worked out.