dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
SCHAEFER: May I ask you to listen to the end of my explanation. I am coming to Dr. Levy now. It was Dr. Levy-and I can give this assurance here quite openly and publicly-who at that time personally asked to see me and requested that these boys of the Jewish social Welfare, who were not at all behaving themselves, be segregated in a section of their own. Dr. Levy was a well-known defense lawyer who was at that time interned in Oranienburg. He was released again soon after his arrival. I personally remember that Dr. Levy, when he left Oranienburg, said good-bye to me in a very cordial manner. I am not at all of the opinion that he was forced at Potsdam to write this article or this letter to me which then appeared in The Times. On the contrary, I would assume that Dr. Levy put "Potsdam" on top of the letter in order to make it distinctive, because the name Levy was not a rare name in Germany at that time. Perhaps in that way he wished to make it clear that the defense lawyer Dr. Levy from Potsdam was the author of the letter. I cannot think of any other explanation and I am quite sure that it would be possible, even today, to question Dr. Levy. At that time he was in the prime of life; I am sure he is still alive today, and it must be possible to summon him and hear him on this question. But I can never believe that Dr. Levy allowed himself to be forced t6 write an article of that sort. But even assuming that he was forced, who should have forced The Times to print a report which was not in agreement with their opinion?
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I am not going to argue with you about that. My suggestion is perfectly clear, that Dr. Levy's letter was a transparent attempt on your part to refute the Times article, which you knew to be true. We won't argue that any more. You evidently disagree. But you will agree to this, won't you, that Dr. Seger seems to have agreed with the Times article in his book, doesn't he? In his book, A Nation Terrorized, he seems to be very much of the same idea as the Times article? Look at another letter in your book now...
SCHAEFER: May I give you an answer to that too. The book written by Seger is not called, A Nation Terrorized, but it is called Oranienburg. And I should like to say this at once, Herr Seger knowingly committed perjury when, at the beginning of his book, he used the form of oath customary in German courts, and then had his statements refuted in every case.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I understand what your position is on that and I am sure the Tribunal does too, but just look at one more letter in your book before I finish. Turn to Page 241. Have you got it? Now there toward the bottom of the page is a letter from an inmate which you published in much the same way as Dr. Levy's letter, I suggest, to show how good conditions were. And you see over the page, on Page 242, he says in this letter: "Dear Mr. SCHAEFER: The days at Oranienburg will always be among the best memories of my life." Do you see that passage? "The days at Oranienburg will always be among the best memories of my life."
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Don't you think that that is too good to be true, or do. you support that today?
SCHAEFER: May I say the following: It is true, quite true. I admit that this letter was written in a mood of exuberance and joy at being free again. But I do not doubt that the author of the letter quite truthfully meant what he wrote in this letter to me. One ought to hear him personally on this matter.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: He may have had the best intentions, but why should he say that the days in a concentration camp, where his liberty was taken away, were among the best memories of his life? Can any man be...
SCHAEFER: Perhaps I might be permitted to say that before the concentration camps existed there were men-and I belonged to them-who stood in line in front of the unemployment agencies and who suffered very great misery, men who here in the concentration camp had enough to eat for the first time. That I should like to make quite clear. M
AJOR BARRINGTON: They had enough to eat, and you remember you told the Commissioner that you had them weighed and they all gained in weight. If you will look at the last two pages of your book I think you will see that you published there a table or a list of the weights of the prisoners, showing how much they had gained while they were in the camp. Have you got that? My Lord, that is Document Number 2924(b). It is on Page 17, I think-Page 32, immediately after the Times article. [Turning to the witness.] Now that is a list, isn't it, which shows the name of the prisoner, or his Christian name and the initials of his surname, and the weight on a certain date and then, after a certain period, what he had gained. Well, now, I am going to suggest to you that those weights are so fantastic that they can't possibly be true. Just look down, you will see that you have had some of them printed in bolder type than the others. Look at Hermann H. from Wriezen. Have you got it?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: On the 26th of June he weighed 54 kilograms; on the 6th of September he weighed 68. That is an increase of 14 kilograms or 21/2 English stones in two and a half months. And look down further, you will see Erich L., who gained 15 kilograms in six months. And further down, Paul S., who gained 15 kilograms in four months; and if you look over the page you will see Fritz T. who started at 55 kilograms and very nearly gained half his own weight in three months, 19 kilograms in three months; that is 3 English stones in three months. Dor3't you think those are rather fantastic figures, impossible to believe? Well I'll put it another way to you; I'll make another suggestion, see if you will accept this explanation. If the Times article was true about the poor food and conditions, and if my suggestion is right that you afterward decided to have a show camp and to improve the conditions, isn't this list of weights quite consistent with the prisoners having first of all lost weight under the bad conditions and then gained it again rapidly when you improved conditions? Do you like that explanation? I am not saying it is right, but that is another explanation; or are you maintaining that these figures are correct? Are you maintaining that these figures are correct?
SCHAEFER: Yes.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: I notice that you don't include Dr. Levy's weight in here; you don,1 include Dr. Seger's weight, do you? Or perhaps they lost weight, did they?
SCHAEFER: Perhaps they maintained their weight. This is only a list of weights, only an extract from the list of weight increases. You are assuming right from the beginning that these are fantastic figures. I would like to say, however, that even today I stand by whatever is set down in this book, and this list which is reproduced here is accurate and correct, and I would like to suggest to you that you ask a medical man what possibilities of gaining weight a man has who through years of unemployment has been exhausted and run down who then once again enters a nutritional phase in which he receives daily his regular meals and the things to which he is entitled. I am not a medical man, but I believe that without difficulty a physician will confirm to you that within four months a man can gain that amount of weight. In May of this year, I myself lost 50 pounds through insufficient food in the camp. In the course of . ...
MAJOR BARRINGTON: Well, I suppose then that these men must have been very disappointed when they were given the generous Christmas amnesty, weren't they?
SCHAEFER: About Christmas 1933, conditions in Germany had already changed essentially. I believe I may say that things were considerably better than in the year before.
MAJOR BARRINGTON: That is all the questions I have, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. BOEHM, have you any questions to ask the witness?
HERR BOEHM: Witness, was Hohenstein a Prussian camp?
SCHAEFER: No, Hohenstein, was far as I know -- I hope I am not mistaken in my geography -- is in Saxony.
HERR BOEHM: Was Wuppertal a camp of the State?
SCHAEFER: That I do not know.
HERR BOEHM: Do you know that Vogel, who was mentioned earlier, was an official of the Gestapo for the Land of Saxony?
SCHAEFER: No. I heard his name for the first time today; I do not know it.
HERR BOEHM: Do you know that in his application he requested the quashing of the proceedings, not in his capacity as a member of the SA, but in his capacity as an official of the Gestapo.?
SCHAEFER: I gathered from this letter, which I had just now for a few minutes, that he did this in his capacity as an official.
HERR BOEHM: Do you know that the SA suffered 300 casualties in killed and 40,000 in wounded during the struggle for power?
SCHAEFER: The figure of men killed is known to me. The exact figure of those wounded I do not know; I know only that it exceeded 10,000 by far.
HERR BOEHM: Is it not perhaps possible, after all, that many a member of the SA thought of the 300 killed and the 40,000 wounded comrades at the time when political opponents were taken to the Camp Oranienburg?
SCHAEFER: That cannot be denied, but no one was justified in taking any action which from the beginning was prohibited by the decree of the Fuehrer; on the other hand one must realize that the seizure of power occurred at a time when political tension was at its highest.
HERR BOEHM: Did anybody commission or order you to write the book Oranienburg?
SCHAEFER: No. As I have already said, I received no commission and no order for it.
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further question to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn. [A recess was taken until 1400 hours.] Afternoon Session [The witness SCHAEFER resumed the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire, Dr. BOEHM. [The witness left the stand.]
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, as next witness I should like to examine the witness Gruss. He is the witness who is to be questioned concerning the people who went over from the Stahlhelm to the SA. [The witness Gruss took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Would you state your full name, please?
THEODOR GRUSS (Witness): Theodor Gruss.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God-the Almighty and Omniscient-that I will speak the pure truth-and will withhold and add nothing. [The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
HERR BOEHM: Witness, how old are you?
GRUSS: 64 years old.
HERR BOEHM: Were you a member of the Party?
GRUSS: No.
HERR BOEHM: Or any of its branches?
GRUSS: No.
HERR BOEHM: Were you a soldier?
GRUSS: Yes, in the first World War.
HERR BOEHM: What was your rank?
GRUSS: Gefreiter (Corporal).
HERR BOEHM: And what was your rank in the Stahlhelm?
GRUSS: I was Chief Treasurer of the Stahlhelm.
HERR BOEHM: From when to when were you in the Stahlhelm?
GRUSS: From 1919 until it was dissolved in 1935.
HERR BOEHM: What was your task after the dissolution of the Stahlhelm in November 1935?
GRUSS: I had to carry out the liquidation of the Stahlhelm.
HERR BOEHM: And how long did you do that?
GRUSS: Until 1939.
HERR BOEHM: -How was the transfer of the Stahlhelm to the SA carried out?
GRUSS: At the end of April 1933 the first Bundesfuehrer, Reich Minister Franz Seldte, removed the second Bundesfuehrer, Duesterberg, from his post in violation of the Bund statute and assumed dictatorial command of the Stahlhelm. One day later, Seldte, in a radio speech, declared his entry into the Party and placed the Stahlhelm under Hitler. In June 1933, Hitler, in an agreement with Seldte, issued an order according to which (1) The Stahlhelm Youth, the so-called Scharnhorst Bund, was to be incorporated into the Hitler Youth; (2) The Young Stahlhelm and the sports units were placed under the Supreme SA Leadership; (3) The rest of the Stahlhelm remained under the leadership of Seldte. A few weeks later, in July 1933, a new order came from Hitler. He ordered that now the entire Stahlhelm was to be placed under the Supreme SA Leadership, and directed that the Young Stahlhelm and the sports units were to be reorganized in view of their incorporation into the SA. On 4 July 1933, the leadership of the Stahlhelm undertook reorganization of the Bund and established: (1) The Wehrstahlhelm, which was made up of the Young Stahlhelm, the sports units, and all Stahlhelmer up to the age of 35. (2) The remainder of the Stahlhelm (Kern-Stahlhelm), made up of all members over 35 years of age. Then the Wehrstahlhelm was incorporated into the SA as a separate formation with its own leaders, the field-gray uniforms, and the Stahlhelm, flags. This incorporation was completed around the end of October 1933. At the beginning of November another order was issued by Hitler according to which the SA Reserves I and II were to be set up. The SA Reserve I was to be made up of units of the Stahlhelm, by the men from 36 to 45 years of age. The SA Reserve II was to include the older age groups, that is, men over 46. But, it never played any role, and was just registered in the lists. On the other hand the units of the Stahlhelm were set up to form the SA Reserve I and were transferred to the SA, again with their own leaders, as separate units and in Stahlhelm uniforms.
GRUSS: This operation was completed by the end of January 1934. 1 believe it was on 24 January that Chief of Staff Röhmreported to Hitler that the entire Stahlhelm had been incorporated into the SA. Just as previously the Wehrstahlhelm was placed under the SA groups, the SA Reserve I was now also placed under the command of the SA groups, which meant in both cases ...
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't this all set out in detail in the Commission evidence?
HERR BOEHM: No, Mr. President. The examination of this witness by the Commission was not conducted in the way the examinations are generally carried out. This witness was only very briefly examined by the Commission because for one thing his state of health was very poor at that time, and there is no other alternative now except to examine this witness more fully before the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The only topic he is dealing with is the merger of the Stahlhelm in the SA in 1933, isn't it? That is the only evidence he is giving and surely that is adequately dealt with in the Commission evidence.
HERR BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything else that you want to get from him?
HERR BOEHM: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is it? But you aren't getting it at present, you are getting the way in which the Stah1helm, was. merged in the SA.
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, the members of the Stahlhelm consider it very important that the manner in which they were transferred into the SA should be presented to the Tribunal; how they were transferred by way of orders and that, as they assert, they in no wise volunteered for the SA, and I believe in this connection I may ...
THE PRESIDENT: I quite understand that, but you aren't telling me, are you, that that wasn't stated in the evidence in the Commission, that they were taken over compulsorily by the SA.
HERR BOEHM: Yes, but I wanted the individual events as they actually occurred to be presented here to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we have got the summary of the evidence before us and it seems to me that the evidence he is giving-, now is the same as the evidence he gave then. HERR BOEHM, It is true that a great part of the evidence giver)was the same, Mr. President, but he had just finished his testimony in this connection and I would have come to the next question anyhow. [Turning to the witness.] Did the units of the SA Reserve I continue to exist until the collapse in 1945?
GRUSS: Not all of them. A large part of these units was in the course of ' years, particularly at the beginning of the war, transferred to the active SA. Here they were either assigned to the Front SA or attached to the Front SA as reserve groups, while the rest of the SA Reserve I units remained as before.
HERR BOEHM: Why did this incorporation of the SA Reserve into the SA take place?
GRUSS: The SA, particularly at the beginning of the war, began to show gaps. These gaps were filled through the transfer of the SA Reserve I. The primary purpose, however, was to have the Stahlhelmer, who were always recognized as an opposition, under better supervision of the SA.
HERR BOEHM: Why were you yourself not put into the SA?
GRUSS: I was already too old at that time, and besides, I was a Freemason.
HERR BOEHM: Over and beyond the orders given, was pressure exerted in connection with the incorporation of the Stah1helm into the SA?
GRUSS: Yes, to a large extent. First of all the transfer did not take place on a voluntary basis. It was done on orders; for example, in the case of the Wehrstahlhelm-and this is how it was done in most cases-the Wehrstahlhelmer were called together for a rollcall, they were told that they had been transferred, and then an SA Fuehrer who was present took over the Wehrstahlhelm. No one was asked whether he wanted to be transferred. Immediately upon the incorporation of the Stahlhelm, it became apparent that the majority of the Stahlhelmer resented and resisted this incorporation. Stahlhelmer who did not want to join the SA were in many cases threatened with arrest. There are cases where punishment in the form of police arrest for ten days and longer was inflicted in this connection. Furthermore, the Stahlhelmer were told that by staying away from the SA an order of Hitler's would not be obeyed and this implied hostility to the State, which always had serious consequences. Whoever was charged with hostility to the State was reported to the police as politically unreliable and was especially watched by the police. It could at any time happen that he might be arrested without any reason and put into prison or a concentration camp. Being pronounced an enemy of the State also had the very serious consequence that the means of subsistence were nearly always either seriously curtailed or even withdrawn. Civil servants who as Stah1helmer did not want to be in the SA were pronounced enemies of the State and removed from their positions, frequently even with loss of pension. About the same applied to employees in private industry. They always lost their positions because the heads of a concern did not want to employ men who were enemies of the State. We in the Bund Leadership tried at the time in many hundreds of cases to help those Stahlhelmer who applied to us for aid, by taking these cases to the labor courts. But in most of the cases we did not succeed in having these people reinstated in their positions. The court mostly confined itself to granting them a compensation.
GRUSS: The tribulations which a Stahlhelmer who did not want to belong to the SA had to undergo were in some cases so great that I recall with certainty several cases of suicide if Stahlhelmer who no longer could stand the strain.
HERR BOEHM: Do these observations of yours extend all over Germany?
GRUSS: Yes.
HERR BOEHM: Could it be true that deceptive maneuvers also took place when the Stahlhelm was incorporated?
GRUSS: Yes, in my opinion, deceptive maneuvers did take place. For example, I have already mentioned that the Wehrstahlhelm as well as the SA Reserve I were permitted to be incorporated as separate formations with their own leaders, and in the field-gray uniform. After a short time, however, these promises were simply broken and the Wehrstahlhelm as well as the SA Reserve I had to don the brown uniform of the SA. Thus they were no longer recognizable in the SA as former Stahlhelmer. 'Then there was one point which especially caused a lot of dissatisfaction. The Stahlhelmer had been promised that after the transfer they could remain members of the Stah1helm-t his was the so-called double membership. They were allowed to participate in the activities of the Stahlhelm as long as it did not interfere with their service in the SA. But this promise also was withdrawn very soon and this caused the greatest difficulties to the Stahlhelmer who wanted to remain loyal to their Bund, and entailed many arrests and punishments of all kinds.
HERR BOEHM: At the time when Seldte turned over the Stahlhelm to Hitler, did he represent the will of the Stahlhelm Bund?
GRUSS: No, he did not. The vast majority of the Stahlhelmer did not approve the measures of Seldte. There were very heated quarrels in the Stahlhelm on account of this and if the Stahlhelm did not break away at the time it was only because the Stahlhelmer said: "We did not take an oath to the person of Seldte. We swore allegiance to the Stahlhelm and to the front-line soldiers."
HERR BOEHM: What ranks did the Stahlhelmer receive in the SA and what significance did they have?
GRUSS: Here too one could speak of a deceptive maneuver inasmuch as the Stahlhelm leaders had been expressly promised that they would serve in the SA with the same ranks. But this promise was not kept either. The Stahlhelm leaders were set down one or two ranks. Shortly thereafter, they were even relieved of their commands and held in reserve. Only a few of them still remained in positions of command. Most of them had really no longer anything to do in the SA, but they could not get out of the SA. According to my observation, no Stahlhelm leaders got beyond the rank of a Standartenfuehrer in the SA unless they were special exceptions, that is, men who distinguished themselves through exceptional activity on behalf of National Socialism. With regard to ranks, the National Socialist Reiter Korps, which included many Stahlhelmer, occupied a special position. But as regards the leaders, the Reiter Korps was more or less left alone. Here most of the Stahlhelm leaders up to Standartenfuehrer retained their command, although there were among these Stahlhelmer many who were in opposition.
HERR BOEHM: Was the attitude of the Stahlhelmer transferred to the SA different from the attitude of the ordinary SA?
GRUSS: Yes, by its very nature the Stahlhelm was something entirely different from the SA. Anyone who joined the Stahlhelm did so voluntarily and of his own volition. Not everyone was accepted in the Stahlhelm. Everyone was first carefully looked over. Then the Stahlhelm had a Bund Charter, a constitution which gave its members the right to elect on a completely democratic basis those leaders whom they wanted, or to remove those leaders whom they did not want. The two Bund Leaders themselves had to submit from time to time to the assembly of members, who then decided about their re-election. The main characteristic of the Stahlhelm, however, was the carrying on of the tradition of the front-line comradeship formed in the field-that unique, comradeship which in all circumstances demands that "I must give everything for my comrade and help him, always." That was, as we called it, front socialism. No difference was made between rich and poor, between rank and position. We Stahlhelmer were all equals. It must be added that the people who joined the Stahlhelm generally came from the moderate middle-class, or I might say from the conservative part of the population. These people were not in favor of extremes and radicalism. They stood for a moderate and peaceful development and, taken all in all, one should realize that the Stahlhelm was made up of quite a special class of people and that this had to result in much friction with the SA.