dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Number 18; it is the answer to Question 18. May I also draw your attention to an affidavit by Baroness Hitter of Munich. Baroness Hitter is a distant relative of the defendant. She is the widow of the former Bavarian Ambassador to the Holy See. She has known Von Neurath for many years and is very familiar with his way of thinking. This is Number Neurath-3 in my Document Book 1, and I should like to quote from Page 3, just one short passage: "The same tolerant attitude which he had toward Christian denominations he also had toward the Jewish question. Therefore he rejected Hitler's racial policy as a matter of principle. In practice he also succeeded in preventing any elimination of Jews under his jurisdiction until the year 1937. "Furthermore, he helped all persons who were close to him professionally or personally, and who had been affected by the legislation concerning Jews, insofar as he was able, in order to protect them from financial and other disadvantages." Herr Von Neurath, what was your attitude toward Hitler's anti-Jewish tendencies and measures?
VON NEURATH: In them I saw an anti-Semitism which was not altogether rare in the German people, but had had no practical effects. I protested to Hitler against all excesses of which I knew, and not simply for foreign political reasons. I begged him, in particular, to restrain Goebbels and Himmler.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: In connection with this matter I should like to interpose a question. What did you know about the activities and excesses committed by the Gestapo, the SA, and the SS? In this connection I should like to put to you the testimony of the witness Gisevius, who was examined here some time ago. He said: "Beyond that, I submitted to one of the closest associates of the Foreign Minister at that time,"-that was you-"Ambassador Von Bulow-Schwante, the Chief of Protocol, as much material as I possibly could and, according to the information which Bulow-Schwante gave me, he submitted that material repeatedly." This is material supposed to refer to excesses, particularly against foreigners, of course.
VON NEURATH: The statement by this witness Gisevius that my Chief of Protocol would generally have had to inform me about the activities of the Gestapo is a thoroughly wrong conclusion. Officially, through complaints from ambassadors and ministers, I heard of brawls and also of arrests by the Police and the SA, but I knew nothing about the general official institutions of the Gestapo and its activities. In every case which became known to me I demanded, above all, that the Minister of the Interior, the Chief of the Police, and the Gestapo give me an explanation and punish the persons guilty.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: What did you know or what did you learn about concentration camps? When did you first hear of this institution at all, and when and from whom did you hear of the conditions which prevailed in these camps?
VON NEURATH: The institution of the so-called concentration camps was known to me from the Boer War. The existence of such camps in Germany became known to me in 1934 or 1935 when two officials of my office, among them the Chief of Protocol mentioned by Herr Gisevius, were suddenly arrested. When I investigated their whereabouts, I discovered that they had been removed to a so-called concentration camp. I sent for Himmler and Heydrich and remonstrated with them, which resulted in a very heated argument. I complained at once to Hitler, and these two officials were released. I then asked them how they had been treated, and both of them agreed in saying that, apart from the lack of freedom, the treatment had not been bad. The concentration camp to which they had been taken was the camp at Oranienburg. Later on I learned of the existence of a camp at Dachau, and in 1939 I also heard of Buchenwald, because the Czech students who had been arrested by Himmler were taken there. The extent of the concentration camps as it has become known here, and in particular the treatment of the prisoners and the existence of the extermination camps, are things which I learned about for the first time here in Nuremberg.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: By whom and when were you appointed Reich Foreign Minister, and how did that appointment come about?
VON NEURATH: I was appointed Foreign Minister on 2 June 1932 by Reich President Von Hindenburg. Already in 1929, after Stresemann's death, Hindenburg had wanted to appoint me Foreign Minister. At that time I refused, because in view of the party conditions existing in the Reichstag in those days I saw no possibility for a stable foreign policy. I was not a member of any of the 30 or so parties, so that I would not have been able to have found any kind of support in the Reichstag of those days. Hindenburg, however, obtained my promise that I would answer his call if the fatherland should find itself in an emergency.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: In this connection may I quote the telegram in which the Foreign Office informed Herr Von Neurath of the fact that the Reich President desired that he should take a leading position in the Government at this time. This is a copy of the telegram which was transmitted to him by telephone, Number 6 in my document book: "For the Ambassador personally, to be deciphered by himself. "Berlin, 31 May 1932." It was addressed to London. "The Reich President requests you, in view of your former promise, to take over the Foreign Ministry in the presidential cabinet now being formed, which will be made up of rightwing personalities free from political party allegiance and will be supported not so much by the Reichstag as by the authority of the Reich President. The Reich President addresses an urgent appeal to you not to refuse your services to the fatherland in this difficult hour. Should you not be able to give an affirmative answer immediately I ask you to return at once." It is signed by Bulow, who was at that time the State Secretary of the Foreign Office. I also draw your attention to a copy of the letter from the chief of the Political Affairs Department of the Foreign Office about Neurath's appointment to the post of Reich Foreign Minister, a letter which had been written to a friend of his, Ambassador Rumelin, at the time. The writer of this letter, Ministerial Director Dr. Kopke, will confirm the correctness of the letter, in his examination before this Tribunal, that is to say, the fact that this is the carbon copy of the original addressed to Ambassador Rumelin. I believe, therefore, that at this moment I need not read the document. The document is Number Neurath-8 in my document book. [Turning to the defendant.] Did you light-heartedly decide to answer Von Hindenburg's call and take over that difficult post, doubly difficult as it was in those days?
VON NEURATH: No, not at all. I was not the least bit keen on taking over the post of Foreign Minister at that time. I liked my post as Ambassador in London, enjoyed good relations there with the Government and the Royal Family, and I was hoping, therefore, that I could continue to be of service to both countries, Great Britain and Germany. I could not simply overlook Hindenburg's appeal, but even then I did not decide until after I had had a lengthy personal discussion with him in which I stated my own aims and ideas regarding German foreign policy and in which I assured myself of his support of a peaceful development and the means of attaining equality for Germany, the strengthening of her position in the council of nations and the regaining of sovereignty over German national territory.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: May I in this connection refer to the affidavit of former Ambassador Prufer, which I have already cited and which is Number Neurath-4 in my document book. I should like to quote from this document, Paragraph 7, which refers to the appointment of the defendant by Hindenburg. In my German text this is Page 27. "In the circles of the higher officials of the Foreign Office it was a well-known fact that when Hindenburg appointed Hitler Reich Chancellor he practically attached the condition that Neurath should remain in office as Foreign Minister. Baron Neurath in no way pushed himself into this office when he assumed it in 1932. On the contrary, as early as 1929, when Hindenburg had asked him to accept the post as Minister, he had declined on the grounds that, not being a member of a party and thus being without party support, he could not consider himself suited to take over a Ministry in a State ruled according to the parliamentary principle. It was not until 1932, when Reich President Von Hindenburg, whom he especially revered, formed his first so-called Presidential Cabinet that Neurath dropped his misgivings and entered this Cabinet as Foreign Minister." What was your judgment of the internal situation at the time?
VON NEURATH: The development of party relations in 1932 had come to such a head that I was of the opinion that there were only two possibilities: Either there would have to be some participation of the National Socialist Party, which had grown strong in numbers, in the Government; or, should this demand be turned down, there would be civil war. The details regarding the formation of the Government in 1933 and Hitler's coming to power have been thoroughly described by the Defendant Von Papen.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: What was your own judgment of, and your attitude toward Hitler, toward National Socialism in general and National Socialist ideas and, in particular, toward the Party?
VON NEURATH: I did not know Hitler personally. I despised the methods of the Party during its struggle for power in the State; its ideas were not known to me in detail. Some of them, particularly in the socialist sphere, seemed good to me; others I considered revolutionary phenomena which would be gradually worn away in the manner I had observed during the German revolution in 1918, and later during the Fascist revolution in Italy as well. On the whole, however, I was not in sympathy with them; in any case, in those days I considered that a decisive role played by Hitler and the National Socialist Party in German politics, or Hitler's solo leadership of German politics, was wrong and not in the interest of Germany, especially not in the interest of German foreign policy.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: May I in this connection quote another passage from the afore-mentioned affidavit of Ambassador Prufer, Number Neurath-4 in my document book on Page 28. It is interesting insofar as Prufer was an official in the defendant's Ministry: "Baron von Neurath was not a National Socialist. By reason of his origin and tradition he was decidedly opposed to the National Socialist doctrine, insofar as it contained radical and violent principles. This aversion, which he did not attempt to conceal, was particularly directed toward excesses by branches of the Party against people with different views, especially against the Jews and persons of partly Jewish ancestry; beyond that it was directed against the general interference of the National Socialist Party in every vital expression of the German people and State; in other words, against the claim to totalitarianism, the Fuehrer Principle, in short, against dictatorship. During the years 1936 to 1938, when in my capacity as head of the budget and personnel section I saw him very frequently, Freiherr von Neurath told me, and others in my presence, in unmistakable terms how much the increasingly extreme tendency in German internal and foreign policy filled him with anxiety and disgust." Mr. President, may I also ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the questionnaire of Count Schwerin von Krosigk, the former Reich Minister of Finance, which is Number Neurath-25 in my document book. Now, proceeding to your foreign political ideas, thoughts, and principles, what was your attitude toward the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations?
VON NEURATH: It is in the senseless and impossible provisions of the Versailles Treaty, by which the economic system of the entire world was brought into a state of disorder, that the roots of National Socialism and with it the causes of the second World War are to be found. By combining this Treaty with the League of Nations and by making the League of Nations to a certain extent the guardian of the provisions of this Treaty' its original purpose, namely, of creating understanding among the nations and preserving the peace, became illusory. To be sure, the statute allowed for the possibility of revision. But the League of Nations Assembly made no use of this possibility. After the United States had withdrawn from participation, and Russia, and later Japan also, stood outside this so-called League of Nations, it consisted in the large majority only of a collection of interested parties desiring to maintain the status quo , which had been created precisely by the Treaty of Versailles. Instead of removing the tensions which appeared again and again in the-course of time, it was the aim of this assembly not to alter the existing state of affairs at all. That a great and honor-loving nation, discriminated against as it was by the Versailles Treaty, could not stand for this for any length of time was something which any farsighted statesman could recognize. And it was not only in Germany that it was pointed out again and again that this must lead to an evil end; but in Geneva, the playground of eloquent and vain politicians, this fell upon deaf ears.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: It is undeniably a historic fact that German foreign policy under all governments preceding Hitler's had aimed at bringing about a change in the Treaty of Versailles, though exclusively by peaceful means. Was this policy also that of Hindenburg, or would Hindenburg perhaps have been disposed to choose another solution, a solution by violence and war?
VON NEURATH: No, in no case; not even if Germany had had the military means for that purpose. He told me again and again that a new war would have to be avoided at all costs.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, may I draw your attention to, and ask you to take judicial, notice of, an extract from a speech made by Count Bernstorff, who was Germany's representative in the League of Nations, on 25 September 1928. It is Number Neurath-34 of my Document Book 2. The translation, however, is not yet available. It will be submitted, I hope, on Monday. I also refer to, and beg you to take judicial notice of, an extract from the speech of former Reich Chancellor Bruning in Kiel on 19 May 1931, which is Number Neurath-36 in my Document Book 2. Also to an extract from the speech made by former Reich Foreign Minister Curtius, the successor and friend of Reich Chancellor Stresemann who had died shortly before, to the League of Nations Assembly.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I was telling Herr Von Ludinghausen that I have got Volume II. I do not know if the Tribunal have the English translation.
THE PRESIDENT: No, I do not think we have. Sir David, have the Prosecution agreed to relevancy, the admissibility of these documents?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, we are not going to make an objection to such short references as have been given so far. Your Lordship will appreciate that I have already stated the position of the Prosecution with regard to the Treaty of Versailles, but as long as it is kept within reasonable bounds as a matter of introduction, I am not taking any formal objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Herr Von Ludinghausen, the Tribunal has ruled out of evidence a variety of documents which are alleged to show the injustice of the Treaty of Versailles; as the Prosecution have adopted the attitude which they have, the Tribunal will regard these as mere historical documents, but the matter is really irrelevant. The only question is whether the defendants have attempted to overturn the Treaty of Versailles by force. We are not concerned with the justice or injustice.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: No, Mr. President, I did not submit the document in order to criticize the Versailles Treaty. I merely wanted to establish the fact that previous governments, too, had pursued with peaceful means the same aims which my client later pursued as Reich Foreign Minister, so that under his direction, therefore, there was no change whatsoever in the nature and aims of German foreign policy with reference to the Western Powers. That was the reason, and not criticism as such.
THE PRESIDENT: I know, Dr. Von Ludinghausen, but all the evidence that the defendant has been giving in the last few minutes was criticism of the injustice of the Treaty of Versailles.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes, that was his general introduction, but I was only trying to prove the continuity of policy. [Turning to the defendant.] What were your own views regarding the continuation of the foreign policy of the Reich with reference to the question which we have just dealt with?
VON NEURATH: It was my view that the solution of the various political problems could be achieved only by peaceful means and step by step. Complete equality for Germany in all fields, in the military field therefore as well, and also the restoration of sovereignty in the entire territory of the Reich and the elimination of any discrimination were prerequisite conditions. But to achieve this was primarily the first task of German foreign policy.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, in this connection I should once more like to refer you to the affidavit by Ambassador Pruler, which is Number Neurath-4 in my document book, and I should like, with the permission of the Tribunal, to quote from this, in order to support the statements just made by the defendant, a part of Paragraph 12: "Neurath's policy was one of international understanding and peace. This policy was not inconsistent with the fact that Herr Von Neurath also strove for a revision of the severe provisions of the Versailles Treaty. However, he wanted to bring this about exclusively by negotiation and in no case by force. All utterances and directives of his which I as his coworker ever heard or saw moved in this direction. The fact that Baron Neurath considered himself a defender of the peace is perhaps best illustrated by a statement he made when leaving the Foreign Office. He declared at that time to a small group of his colleagues that now war could probably no longer be avoided. He presumably meant by this that now foreign policy would be transferred from his hands into those of reckless persons." Herr Von Neurath, then you agreed entirely with Hindenburg in absolutely rejecting any use of force for the purpose of achieving this objective, the revision of the Treaty of Versailles; and you considered the attainment of this goal possible and were a determined opponent of any belligerent developments, which you considered the greatest possible misfortune, not only for Germany but for the entire world?
VON NEURATH: Yes. Germany and the whole world were still in the midst of the serious economic crisis which had been caused by the regulations of the Treaty of Versailles. Any new development of belligerency, therefore, could lead only to a great disaster.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: On 2 June 1932, a few days after you had entered your new office as Foreign Minister, the meeting of the so-called Reparations Conference began in Lausanne, and you and the new Reich Chancellor, Von Papen, participated.. Will you tell us very briefly what the purpose of that conference was?
VON NEURATH: The reparations imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, which had never been definitely fixed, were now formally to be settled completely, that is, the final sum was to be decided on. This purpose was accomplished.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: At the same time, was there not a meeting of the Disarmament Conference at Geneva?
VON NEURATH: Yes, at almost the same time these negotiations were also taking place.
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, in this connection, for the purpose of general understanding, I should like to point out that the institution of the Disarmament Conference goes back to a resolution passed by the League of Nations on 25 September 1928, in which the close connection between international security, that is to say, peace among all the European States, and the limitation of armament was emphasized. In this connection, I should like to refer to the text of the resolution passed by the League of Nations, which is Number Neurath-33 in my document book. That is on Page 90 of Document Book 2. [Turning to the defendant.] Can you give us a brief account of the course of these disarmament negotiations?
VON NEURATH: Well, naturally it is very difficult to give a short account. The Disarmament Conference had been created by the League of Nations for the purpose of bringing about the disarmament of all nations, which was provided for in Article 8 as an equivalent for the German disarmament which had already been carried out by 1927. The negotiations during this Disarmament Conference were, however, suspended after a short time, despite the objections of the German representatives. The preceding negotiations and this adjournment made it quite clear, even at that time, that those states which had not disarmed were not prepared to carry through their own disarmament in accordance with the standards and methods applied to Germany's previous disarmament. This fact made it impossible for Germany to accept a resolution which had been proposed to the Disarmament Conference at this time, and the German representative therefore received instructions to declare that Germany would not participate in the work of the Disarmament Conference as long as Germany's equal right to equal participation in the results of the conference was not recognized.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Von Ludinghausen, shall we adjourn now?
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Yes, Mr. President. [A recess was taken.]
DR. VON LUDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, in regard to the question just put and answered, I should like to refer to several documents and ask you to take official notice of them. I am submitting, or have submitted in my Document Book 2, excerpts from the German memorandum of 29 August 1932, in Document Number Neurath-40; excerpts from an interview of Von Neurath with the representative of the Wolff Telegraph Bureau, the official news bureau of the German Reich, in Document Number Neurath-41 of Document Book 2; excerpts from a statement by Herr Von Neurath to the representatives of the German press on 30 September 1932, in Document Number Neurath-45 of Document Book 2; an excerpt from a letter of the defendant to the President of the Disarmament Conference, Number Neurath-43 of Document Book 2; and finally, I should like to refer to a speech by the German representative at the Disarmament Conference in Geneva, which is Number Neurath-39 in my document book which shows the development of the views and attitude of the defendant, and thereby that of German policy, toward the disarmament negotiations which were resumed on the 16th at the Disarmament Conference. Herr Von Neurath, in the documents submitted above you emphasize that the disarmament question must be solved exclusively by peaceful means, and that no violence of any kind should be used. Did this tendency, as expressed here, actually correspond to your conviction, and did it represent the guiding principle, and indeed the exclusive guiding principle, of your policy?