dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
HERR PELCKMANN: And so we ourselves, in spite of these painstaking efforts of the investigations, had no clear judicial evidence that mass extermina-tions; on a large scale-not to mention the biological extermination of Jewry-had been carried out, and we continued, as before, to investigate the crimes from the point of view that they were indi-vidual crimes, although they had been carried out to an alarming extent and in alarmingly large numbers. HERR PELCKMANN: There exists a pamphlet called SS in Dachau, issued by the American CIC, by a Colonel Quinn. Unfor-tunately I cannot submit it to the Tribunal at this time, because I had to return it. But it is in the library and is generally known. It contains testimony given by an anonymous inmate and signed ... THE PRESIDENT: You should have taken a copy of the docu-ment. You cannot testify or tell us what the document is if you cannot produce it. The fact that it had to go back to the library is no reason why you don't have it. There would have been no objection to your bringing a copy of it. HERR PELCICAANN: May I try to bring a copy after the recess, Mr. President? THE PRESIDENT: Yes, if you would like to. HERR PELCKMANN: It contains a statement by an anonymous ... THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do not want to know what it con-tains. We do not accept from you what it contains. HERR PELCKMANN: In that case, I shall postpone this question. Witness, evidence has been submitted to this Tribunal that in the gas chambers at Auschwitz and other places, millions of Jews were murdered. You, however, discovered in your investigations that individual persons and a small circle of persons committed the crimes which you described. Is it possible, as far as you know, that this comparatively small circle of persons is also responsible for the extermination of these millions? REINECKE: Investigations of the head office "SS Courts," particularly the final stages of the investigations just before the end of the war, show that individual persons and a small circle of -persons are also exclusively responsible for these things.
HERR PELCKMANN: Other-wise, these outrageous things could not possibly have escaped the attention of the legal authorities for so long. HERR PELCKMANN: Did you, in your conversations with Dr. Morgen, gather any further information which might support this assertion? REINECKE: Dr. Morgen was a judge before me, who during all the years was attached to the Reich Criminal Police Department in order to carry out investigations in the concentration camps from there. Dr. Morgen has extensive knowledge. I know today that he himself talked with those responsible for these mass exterminations, and he gained a clear insight into all these matters. He can prove ,that the origin of the extermination of the Jews is not to be found in the SS but in the Chancellery of the Führer. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, I understood from you that you put-that you were putting in two affidavits from Dr. Morgen, is that right? HERR PELCKMANN: Three, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: Well, three-five, if you like; but this witness cannot tell us what Dr. Morgen says. Dr. Morgen must speak for himself from his affidavits. HERR PELCKMANN: In that case, perhaps I may return to this when I submit the affidavits. [Turning to the witness.] It is alleged by the Prosecution that these acts could not have been deeds of individuals, but that the logical application of the Party Program regarding the Jewish ques-tion had to lead to these crimes at Auschwitz. What can you say to that from your own knowledge and experience of the fight against these crimes? REINECKE: I have already said that Himmler always showed the SS only his ideal face, and these ideals were considered by the SS as the expression of the Party Program. Hitler's order for the biological extermination of Jewry, as I know it today, is an absolute ... THE PRESIDENT: He said that over and over again about Himmler showing his ideal face to the SS. He said it before, you know. He should not have to say it more than once. HERR PELCKMANN: May I ask him, Mr.
HERR PELCKMANN: President, what his attitude is on the allegation of the Prosecution that the extermina-tion of Jews in Auschwitz was considered by members of the SS as a logical outcome of the principles which the SS had learned? THE PRESIDENT: How can he give evidence about that? He can tell us what he saw and what he did. He hasn't told us yet whether he has ever been in the concentration camps. HERR PELCKMANN: Witness, did you know anything about the activity of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police and the SD in the East, as they have been mentioned here in this Trial? REINECKE: I knew nothing about them. I only knew that the Security Police was stationed in the operational zone in the East, where it was carrying out security measures, and I believed that this was the task of the Security Police in that area. The legal authorities never knew of any other orders in that connection, and it was only here that we heard of these things for the first time. HERR PELCKMAN14: Was it possible for members of the Waffen-SS to leave the Waffen-SS if they did not agree with the tasks which they were given or the orders which were issued? REINECKE: A possibility of this sort did not exist at all. Service in the Waffen-SS was military service, legally established and legally recognized. Even members of the Waffen-SS who had joined as volunteers were later subject to general conscription and bound by compulsory military service. It was therefore possible to leave the Waffen-SS only by means of desertion, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. HERR PELCKMANN: It is stated by the Prosecution that the criminal activities of- the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that their illegality could not have remained hidden from the members of the SS. Is that correct? REINECKE: The SS was not a single unit. I have already de-scribed the various organizations of the SS, and the individual mem-ber of the SS had no insight into the various organizations.
HERR PELCKMANN: He saw his General SS and his Waffen-SS, in which such crimes were not committed, and so he could never hold the belief that he belonged to a criminal organization. He could actually not have any idea of the crimes which were established here. HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, finally may I be allowed to put one question to the witness arising from the fact that together with a staff of assistants he was occupied with the compiling of affidavits. If the High Tribunal desires to hear how these affidavits were obtained and compiled, then this witness can give information about it. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You may ask him. HERR PELCKMANN: 136,213 affidavits were compiled and entered on printed forms in various files, together with a survey of the various fields dealt with and a numerical classification of the affidavits in the individual groups of subjects. Witness, who com-piled these affidavits? REINECKE: They were evaluated and compiled under my direction by 15 SS internees who were judges. Some 170,000 of the statements sent in were evaluated. Of these, 136,213 affidavits and applications to appear as a witness were compiled to form a collec-tion of documents. The rest are only requests for a hearing, et cetera. Those 136,000 statements in the collection were classified according to the various subjects, and they form part of the defense case of the SS. HERR PELCKMANN: Where did you obtain this considerable number of affidavits? REINECKE: Mostly from camps in the American and British Zones; to a smaller extent from the French Zone; none at all from the Russian Zone and from Austria. HERR PELCKMANN: What procedure did you adopt in evalu-ating and compiling these affidavits? REINECKE: I have just explained that in outline. HERR PELCKMANN: Yes, we do not need details. Thank you. Did the selection ... THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, what I understood the wit-ness to say was that there were 170,000 statements utilized, and somehow, from these 170,000 statements, 136,000 affidavits were obtained. Well, how were they obtained? The Tribunal would like to know.
HERR PELCKMANN: Before whom were they sworn? HERR ~ PELCKMANN: The witness will be able to explain that, Mr. President. REINECKE: These 170,000 affidavits were sworn by interned members of the SS. Of this total figure of 170,000 these 136,213 affidavits were, in fact, utilized by my colleagues. The remaining affidavits were not used, because they were either irrelevant or submitted inaccurately or too late. THE PRESIDENT: You mean the whole 170,000 were sworn affidavits? HERR PELCKMANN: Sworn before whom, Witness? REINECKE: Part of these 170,000 affidavits were not sworn. The 136,000 affidavits, however, were all sworn. We knew the decision of the High Tribunal that an affidavit sworn before a German lawyer would only be valid if it had been sworn before May of this year, and that after May of this year affidavits would have to be sworn before an Allied officer. That, however, was not done in all the camps. After May 1946 some affidavits were still sworn before lawyers and courts and in accordance with the decision of, the High Tribunal those had to be discarded as invalid. For that reason, only 136,000 affidavits remained. HERR PELCKMANN: Were the affidavits selected and evaluated with a view that only affidavits favorable to the defense of the SS should be considered? REINECKE: No, all affidavits were fully considered. HERR PELCKMANN: How is it that on some subjects many thousands of statements are available, whereas on others only a few affidavits are contained in the list? REINECKE: From the mass of the affidavits submitted, it is evident that the bulk of the SS members did not understand the Indictment. They cannot imagine, for example, that they were active in a conspiracy; they cannot imagine that they were preparing a war of aggression. For that reason, members of the SS testified only on such subjects which appeared to them typical of their work in the SS, the combat soldier on his experiences at the front, and the member of the General SS on the nature of his work in the years from 1933 to 1939.
REINECKE: So-called legal officers were attached to concentra-tion camps for purposes of supervision. These legal officers, who were the instruments of the appointing authority concerned, had the duty of writing so-called reports of evidence, if crimes of any sort occurred, and of submitting such reports to the courts so that they might take over the prosecution of the crimes. HERR PELCKMANN: One intermediate question ... THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, I don't think he gave an an-swer to your question at all. Your question was: How was it that it was so late as the second half of 1943 that these investigating commissions began to become active? He did not answer that ques-tion at all. HERR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, the witness has not yet finished. I was just going to put an intermediate question, and in his further explanations the matter will become quite clear. [Turning to the witness.] I want to pat an intermediate question, Witness. Were these legal officers subordinated to you, to the head office "SS Courts", or to the SS legal authorities, or to whom were they subordinated? Can you give names? REINECKE: The legal officers were not subordinates of the legal authorities, but they were officials of the chief justice making the investigations. HERR PELCKMANN: Who was that in the case of the concentration camps? REINECKE: In the case of concentration camps it was Oswald Pohl, who was already mentioned yesterday. HERR PELCKMANN: Now, will you please continue with the answer to the question, why did the legal authorities learn of these atrocities at so late a stage? REINECKE: The reason was that earlier the legal authorities had not had any suspicions, owing to the fact that these legal officers, during the years until 1943, were continuously handing in such reports of evidence to the courts. These reports of evidence were very detailed. In cases of unnatural death of detainees, they con-tained photographs of the place of the crime, medical reports, evidence by detainees and guards.
REINECKE: These reports were so detailed that the suspicion that other crimes could be committed behind the backs of the legal officers could not arise. These reports of evidence which were submitted led in every case to the trial and sentencing of the criminal, and such sentences were pronounced throughout all the years. HERR PELCKMANN: Might not the reports of evidence have been forged, and might not the actual facts have been covered up in that way? REINECKE: In part this was the case. I just said that during the second half of 1943 we began investigations in the camp at Buchenwald. Already in 1941 we had carried out such an investiga-tion in Buchenwald, which, however, had no result. During the later investigation, in 1943, it was in fact discovered that in 1941 the commander, Koch, had used forged reports, coached witnesses, and forged medical reports which had deceived the investigating judges. We then conducted investigations in other camps, where we found that these reports of evidence had been in order. HERR PELCKMANN: Now, will you please describe briefly what further steps the SS legal authorities took with regard to these crimes in concentration camps? REINECKE: The clues in the camp at Buchenwald were mani-fold and they led to many camps. The matter became more complex from month to month. It was evident that the investigating organs of the legal authorities had been utterly unsuitable for the task of conducting a purely criminal investigation of this sort, because the legal authorities, in view of their character as a military legal instrument, lacked- a fundamental basis, namely, an authority capable of carrying out criminal prosecutions. For that reason, judges were quickly given short training courses in criminal proceedings, and at the same time, in collaboration with the Reich Security Main Office, experts from the Reich Criminal Police Department were made available for the investigation of these crimes. Such commissions were detailed to many camps and they worked continuously until the collapse.
REINECKE: The head office "SS Courts" created a special court which had almost exclusively the task of trying these cases involving crimes committed in concentration camps. In the head office "SS, Courts," which was the leading office of the legal authorities, a special head department was created which carried out the over-all direction of the investigations in concentration camps and which was to take over the task ordinarily discharged by the public prosecutor. HERR PELCKMANN: Now, briefly summarized, what was the outcome of the fight of the SS jurisdiction against crime in con-centration camps? REINECKE: Altogether, approximately 800 cases were investi-gated; 400 of these 800 cases were brought to trial, and 200 out of those 400 ended with sentences by the court. Among the cases investigated were proceedings against five commanders of concentra-tion camps; proceedings against two commanders were completed and ended with a sentence of death by shooting., HERR PELCKMANN: Were any difficulties put in the way of your commissions conducting these investigations? REINECKE: Very considerable difficulties were put in the way of these commissions. These difficulties originated with Pohl, who was using every means in his power to prevent the investigating commissions from penetrating to the real sources of these crimes. In that way, the legal authorities, being unable to make rapid progress and being compelled to break up piecemeal the secrecy surrounding the evidence, were forced to work together with detainees. In almost every camp in which such a commission was at work, confidential agents were recruited from among the detainees who submitted material to the investigating judges. But it was very difficult to persuade these detainees to co-operate, because they' feared that they would be killed if their activities were discovered. HERR PELCKMANN: But could you not easily have removed these obstacles by reporting, for instance, to Himmler? Pohl, as far as I know, was directly subordinate to Himmler, so that Himmler could have given him the necessary orders?
REINECKE: REINECKE: Oh no, this man Pohl did not proceed as clumsily as that. Outwardly he pretended to welcome and support with all means the investigating work of the head office "SS Courts." And that was how he represented the matter to Himmler, after we had drawn Himmler's attention to Pohl's somewhat doubtful role. In reality, Pohl sabotaged with all the means of his tremendously powerful position the investigations we were making and worked hand in glove with the detainees and the criminal commanders, as we proved on the basis of evidence. In 1941, to mention one outstanding example, when our first investigation in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp failed, as I have described, Pohl wrote a letter to the camp commander Koch, which I have read myself, and which contained the following: "I shall use all the power of my position to protect you if some unemployed lawyer should again stretch out his greedy hangman's hands toward your clean, immaculate person." That is how Pohl always worked. He was not only caught in the death machinery of the concentration camps, but he became at the same time the most corrupt person in the whole Reich. Of that we found evidence toward the end of the war through the many proceedings against organizations which he headed in private busi-ness. As head of that criminal clique, he actually tried to under-mine the system of trustees among the detainees, which he knew might endanger his own person. He had one of our confidential agents in the camp of Sachsenhausen-his name was Rothe-locked up and was trying to elicit, under false pretenses, an order from the Reich Security Main Office, or rather the Reich Criminal Police Department, to have the man hanged publicly before all the detainees of the camp so as to intimidate them and at the same time make the investigation work of the legal authorities impos-sible. One of our investigating officers heard of this in time and was able to prevent it at the last moment. HERR PELCKMANN: More slowly please, Witness, much more slowly.
REINECKE: These are important statements, and the translation is not simple. REINECKE: That was how this criminal Pohl worked. The most important support in his fight against the legal authorities was the Führer Order Number 1, regarding secrecy, which was posted in every office of the SS and Police. According to that order, matters which had to be kept secret could only be communicated to the persons immediately concerned, and even those could be told only as much as they absolutely had to know, and even then, only for the period in which they were actively concerned with the partic-ular matters. Everything in the concentration camps was secret; only with special passes and credentials was it possible to enter them. The work done by the detainees was secret, ostensibly because "V" weapons were being, produced. The other doings of the detainees were secret, ostensibly for reasons of counter intelligence. Corre-spondence on concentration camps was "secret," and for that reason could not be checked at all. For years Pohl deftly withdrew behind this screen of close secrecy, and he surrendered to the advancing investigation of the legal authorities only step by step whenever on the basis of individual facts he was systematically cornered. HERR PELCKMANN: Then, Witness, do you believe that with the results you have just described you came near to discovering the real extent of the crimes, as we have learned them from the pro-ceedings here? REINECKE: To the extent to which I know them today, certainly not. And the reason for that is that the legal authorities of the SS and Police dealt with all these crimes as individual crimes, and were unable for long years to detect the system of criminality as it can be recognized today. When toward the end of 1944 the legal authorities succeeded, on the strength of individual facts, in cornering the criminals Pohl and Grawitz, and also Müller from the Gestapo, who was covering up many of the crimes, it was for the first time that these men referred to orders from above.
REINECKE: The investigations which the legal authorities then commenced along a new line collapsed together with the Ger-man war machine. HERR PELCKMANN: Did you then, toward the end of 1944, come near to discovering the actual extent of the crimes, the mass exterminations? REINECKE: It was clear at the end of 1944 that orders from above must exist, but it was not recognizable even then that they dealt with mass exterminations of a tremendous extent. HERR PELCKMANN: According to the result of the investiga-tions you have just described, who was responsible for the crimes which were revealed? . REINECKE: Of the highest superiors, Pohl; next to him the former Reich medical officer of the SS and Police, Grawitz; and next to him the Chief of the Gestapo, Miller. Apart from these, the commanders of the concentration camps, members of the com-manders' staffs, medical officers in concentration camps, and to a considerable extent, criminal detainees in the concentration camps. HERR PELCKMANN: Would it therefore be correct to say that without distinction all members of the groups of persons which you have just mentioned participated in the crimes? REINECKE: No, that is not correct. The investigations which we carried out proved clearly that certain camps were perfectly in order, that not every commander was a criminal, and that many, members of the commanders' staffs and many medical officers knew nothing about the crimes. Above all the guards in the concentration camps had nothing whatever to do with the crimes, because they themselves were unable to gain knowledge of the real happenings within the concentration camps. HERR PELCKMANN: You have been speaking about the com-mander at the concentration camp of Buchenwald, Koch. His case has already been mentioned in the course of these proceedings, and the Prosecution at that time alleged, on the basis of testimony given by the detainee Blaha, that Koch had been sentenced for embezzle-ment and for the murder of three persons whose existence was in-convenient to him.