dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
PUHL: The confiscated articles were usually rejected when they reached us; if the exception which we made in. this case became known, then it would immediately have provided an example for others; and that we wanted to avoid under all circumstances.
MR. DODD: You didn't want to discuss this matter on the telephone with Pohl of the SS, did you? You asked him to come to your office rather than talk about it on the telephoned
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: Why was that, if it was just an ordinary business transaction?
PUHL: Because one never knew to what extent the telephone was being tapped, and thus the transaction might have become known to others.
MR. DODD: Well, you didn't talk to anybody much on the telephone; is that right? You were a man that never used the telephone out of the Reichsbank? Now, I think you realize fully well that there was a special reason in this case for not wanting to talk on the telephone and I think you should tell the Tribunal what it was.
PUHL: Yes; the reason was, as I have said repeatedly, that from the beginning special secrecy was desired, this desire was respected and adhered to everywhere, also as to this telephone call.
MR. DODD: And you are still insisting that this transaction was not a special secret transaction that you told Dr. Kempner was a "Schweinerei." Do you know what that word means?
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: What does it mean? It means it smelled bad, doesn't it?
PUHL: That we should not have done it.
MR. DODD: Now, you called up Thoms on more than one occasion to ask him how the deposits from the SS were coming in, didn't you?
PUHL: No, I saw Thoms relatively seldom, often not for months, as he could hardly come to my office.
MR. DODD: I didn't ask you if you saw him often. I asked you if you didn't call him on the telephone and ask him how the deposits were coming along?
PUHL: No, I took no further interest in the conduct of this particular transaction. Moreover, the requesting of a report from the cashier would have been the proper procedure.
MR. DODD: Did you tell him to get in touch with Brigadefuehrer Frank or Gruppenfuehrer or Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff of the SS? Did you tell that to Thoms?
PUHL: Yes, I repeat what I said earlier; when Pohl was in my office he told me that he would appoint two people to negotiate the transaction with the Reichsbank, and they were the two people just mentioned; I passed on their names to the cashier's office.
MR. DODD: What was the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank?
PUHL: I heard of the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank for the first time in Frankfurt, when I saw it in the files.
MR. DODD: Don't you know the name Melmer, M-e-l-m-e-r?
PUHL: Yes, from my time in Frankfurt.
MR. DODD: Didn't you on one occasion call Herr Thoms on the telephone and ask him how the "Melmer" deposits were coming along?
PUHL: I am afraid I didn't quite understand.
MR. DODD: Well, I say, didn't you on one occasion at least call Herr Thoms on the telephone in the Reichsbank and ask him how the "Melmer" deposits were coming along?
PUHL: No, I could not have put that question because I did not know the word "Melmer."
MR. DODD: You don't know that Melmer was the name of an SS man? You don't know that?
PUHL: No, I did not know that.
MR. DODD: I want you to look at an affidavit by Mr. Thoms, executed the 8th day of May 1946. You have seen this before, by the way; haven't you, you saw it yesterday? Answer that question, will you please, Mr. Witness. You saw this affidavit yesterday, the one I just sent up to you? You saw that yesterday, didn't you?
PURL: .
MR. DODD: You will observe in Paragraph 5 that Thoms, who executed this affidavit, said that he went to see you and that you told him that the Reichsbank was going to act as custodian for the SS and the receipt and disposition of deposits and that the SS would deliver the property, namely gold, silver and foreign currency; and you also explained that the SS intended to deliver numerous other kinds of property such as jewelry, and "we must find a way to dispose of it," and that he suggested to you, Mr. Puhl, that: "We transmit the items to the Reichshauptkasse, as we did in the case of Wehrmacht booty, or that the items could be given by the Reichsfuehrer SS directly to the pawnshop for disposition, so that the Reichsbank had no more to do with it than it did in the case of confiscated Jewish property. Puhl told me that it was out of the question and that it was necessary that we arrange a procedure for handling this unusual property in order to hold the whole business secret." Then he goes on to say: "This conversation with Puhl occurred just a short time, approximately two weeks, before the first delivery, which occurred on 26 August 1942. The conversation was in the office of Herr Puhl; nobody else was present. I don't remember if Herr Frommknecht was present during the whole time; and Puhl said it was very important not to discuss this with anybody, that it was to be highly secret, that it was a special transaction, and if anybody asked about it that I should say I was forbidden to speak about it." And on the next page you find, in Paragraph 8, Herr Thoms says: "I was told by Herr Puhl that if I had any questions on this matter I was to get in touch with Brigadefuehrer Frank or with Gruppenfuehrer or Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff of the SS. I remember getting the telephone number of this office, and I think I recall it was furnished me by Herr Puhl. I called Brigadefuehrer Frank about this, and he stated that the deliveries would be made by truck and would be in charge of an SS man by the name of Melmer.
MR. DODD: The question was discussed whether Melmer should appear in uniform or civilian clothes, and Frank decided it was better that Melmer appear out of uniform." And so on. Then, moving on down, he says, in Paragraph 10: "When the first delivery was made, however, although Melmer appeared in civilian clothes, one or two SS men in uniform were on guard; and after one or two deliveries most of the people in the Hauptkasse and almost everybody in my office knew all about the SS deliveries." Then moving on again, Paragraph 12: "Included in the first statement sent by the Reichsbank, and signed by me, to Melmer was a question concerning the name of the account to which the proceeds should be credited. In answer to that I was orally advised by Melmer that the proceeds should be credited to the account of 'Max Heiliger.' I confirmed this on the telephone with the Ministry of Finance; and in my second statement to Melmer, dated 16 November 1942, I confirmed the oral conversation." Now, the next paragraph is 13: "After a few months, Puhl called me and asked me how the Melmer deliveries were going along and suggested that perhaps they would soon be over. I told Puhl that the way the deliveries were coming in it looked as though they were growing." And then I call your attention to the next paragraph: "One of the first hints of the sources of these items occurred when it was noticed that a packet of bills was stamped with a rubber stamp, 'Lublin.' This occurred some time early in 1943. Another hint came when some items bore the stamp, 'Auschwitz.' We all knew that these places were the sites of concentration camps. It was the tenth delivery, in November 1942, that dental gold appeared. The quantity of the dental gold became unusually great." Now, there is another paragraph, but I particularly want to call your attention to the fact that Thoms says you called him and asked him how the Melmer deliveries were going, and also to the fact that you, as he states in here, impressed upon him the need for absolute secrecy.
MR. DODD: And now, I want to ask you, after having seen that affidavit again-and you will recall that you told our people yesterday that that affidavit, insofar as your knowledge was concerned, was absolutely true-now I am going to ask you if it isn't a fact that there was a very special reason for keeping this transaction secret.
PUHL: In reading this statement, it is obvious that the desire for secrecy came from the SS; and this tallies exactly with what I said before, namely, that the SS emphasized that the desire for secrecy originated with them. And as we heard, they went so far as to invent an account-"Max Heiliger"-which was obviously, as is also clear from the statement, an account for the Reich Ministry of Finance. In other words, this tallies with what I have been saying, namely, that the obligation to keep the matter secret, this special obligation, was desired by the SS, and was carried out; and it applied even to the transfer of the equivalent value. As regards the second point, that I am supposed to have talked to Thoms, I already stated yesterday that I do not remember such a conversation among the very great number of conversations which I had at the bank daily. Nor can I imagine that I went to see him. That would have been a very unusual procedure. I do not recall the expression "Melmer deliveries" in that connection; but I suggest that it is used in this statement for simplicity's sake, just to refer briefly to the subject under discussion.
MR. DODD: It isn't too important, but of course he says you called him on the telephone, that you didn't go to see him. However, I offer this as Exhibit USA-852.
THE PRESIDENT: This statement we have before us doesn't appear to be sworn.
MR. DODD: Well, the witness is here in Nuremberg. I will withdraw it and have it sworn to and submit it at a later date. I wasn't aware that it wasn't sworn to. He is here and available. I had him brought here in case any question was raised about him. [Turning to the witness.] Now, the Defendant Goering knew something about these deposits, too, didn't he? Now that we are talking this thing all out, what about that?
PUHL: I was not aware that Herr Goering knew anything about these things.
MR. DODD: I show you a document that was found in the files of the Reich Treasury, the Reichsbank, rather. It is Number 3947-PS, and it is a new document. You haven't seen this, by the way. Now, this is a memorandum in the files, dated 31 March 1944, and it says, its subject is: "Utilization of jewels, and so forth, which have been acquired by official agencies in favor of the Reich. "According to an oral confidential agreement between the Vice President, Mr. Puhl, and the chief of one of Berlin's public offices, the Reichsbank has taken over the converting of domestic and foreign moneys, gold and silver coins, precious metals, securities, jewels, watches, diamonds, and other valuable articles. These deposits will be processed under the code name 'Elmer.' "The large amounts of jewelry, and so forth, acquired hereby have previously been turned over-after checking the number of pieces and, insofar as they had not been melted down, the approximate weights given-to the' Municipal Pawn Shop, Division III, Main Office, Berlin N 4, Elsasser Strasse 74, for the best possible realization of value." I am not going to read all of it. It goes on with more material about the pawn shop, but I want to call your attention to the paragraph beginning: "The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, informs the Reichsbank in his letter of 19 March 1944, copy of which is enclosed, that the considerable amounts of gold and silver objects, jewels, and so forth at the Main Office of Trustees for the East (Haupttreuhandstelle Ost) are to be delivered to the Reichsbank according to an order issued by Reich Ministers Funk and Graf Schwerin von Krosigk. The converting of these objects must be accomplished in the same way as the 'Melmer' deliveries. "At the same time the Reich Marshal informs us on the converting of objects of the same kind which have been acquired in the occupied western territories.
MR. DODD: We do not know to which office these objects have been delivered and how they are liquidated." Then there is more about an inquiry and more about this whole business, the pawn shops, and so on. But, first of all, I want to ask you: In the first paragraph it says "according to a confidential oral agreement between you and the chief of one of Berlin's public offices"-who was this chief of the Berlin public office who had a confidential agreement about this business with you?
PUHL: That was Herr Pohl. This is the agreement of which we spoke this morning.
MR. DODD: That was Herr Pohl of the SS, wasn't it?
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: And that was this whole transaction; this whole SS transaction that this memorandum is about, that much of it is about?
PUHL: This is a report from our cashier, and in line with the obligation of secrecy the words "SS Economic Department" have been avoided and the more general term "the head of a Berlin public office" is used.
MR. DODD: And later on in the paragraph it refers to the incoming objects to be processed under the code name "Melmer," M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you a few minutes ago if you recognized, isn't it?
PUHL: I didn't understand the question.
MR. DODD: Well, the last sentence in this paragraph says: "All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name 'Melmer.' " M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you about a few minutes ago, and you said you didn't know it.
PUHL: Yes, and this statement also shows that I couldn't have known it, because only now, in this statement, is it disclosed that the name "Melmer" was used.
MR. DODD: I think if you will read it you will see that it shows just the opposite. It says, according to the oral confidential agreement between you and Pohl of the SS the Reichsbank took over the selling, and so In, of gold, silver coins, and so forth. "All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name 'Melmer.' " You are not telling this Tribunal that a transaction like this was going on in your bank over which you were Vice President, under a code name, and you didn't know it, and you were the man who was dealing directly with the SS man. Are you seriously saying that to this Court?
PUHL: Yes. The word "Melmer" was never used in my presence But our treasury directors could use code words for the accounts of clients who preferred not to give their own names and the names of their institutions; and the treasury made use of a code word in this case too.
MR. DODD: You will observe that this is the second time this morning that we have run across the name Melmer. Herr Thoms says you used that term in talking to him, and now we find it in one of your own bank memorandums, which is a captured document. Are you still saying that you don't know the term?
PUHL: This memorandum wasn't made for me, but for the responsible treasury official. And specifically in order to acquaint him with the arrangements made by the treasury, the memorandum states under what code name this transaction will be carried out.
MR. DODD: Herr Puhl, look up at me a minute, will you. Didn't you tell Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, and Dr. Kempner, when they were all together with you, that all of this business with the SS was common gossip in the Reichsbank? These gentlemen who are sitting right here, two of them at the United States table and one up here. You know them. Now I want you to think a minute before you answer that question.
PUHL: We talked of the fact that the secret was not kept, and in the long run it is not possible to keep a permanent secret in a bank; but that has nothing to do with it. What we were speaking of just now were the technical details, how this sort of transaction was carried out; those details did not become general knowledge. What naturally could not be avoided was the transaction as such becoming known.
MR. DODD: Now, in case you don't understand me, we are not talking about that. I think you cannot help but remember because this is only a day or so ago, and in this building, you had a conversation with these gentlemen, didn't you? And I am now asking you if it isn't a fact that you told them that this whole SS transaction with the bank was common gossip in the bank.
PUHL: There was a general whisper in the bank about this transaction; but details were, of course, not known.
MR. DODD: Are you worried about your part in this? I think that is a fair question in view of your affidavit in your testimony. Are you concerned about what you had to do with this business? Are you?
PUHL: No. I myself, once the matter had been set in motion, had nothing further to do with it. And in the statement, which you have submitted, Herr Thoms himself admits that he did not see me at all for months. The Directorate never discussed this matter in its meetings and was never approached for a decision.
MR. DODD: You know, when the Defendant Funk was on the stand, he said that you were the one who first told him about the SS business. Is that your version of it?
PUHL: No. My recollection is that the first conversation took place in the office of President Funk; and he told me, for reasons which I stated earlier, that we wanted to oblige the SS by taking over these "deposits"-that was the word used.
MR. DODD: You put it more strongly than that the other day when you thought about it, when you said "Can you imagine Himmler talking to me instead of Funk"? Do you remember saying that to these gentlemen?
PUHL: I'm sorry I didn't understand the last question.
MR. DODD: Well, it is not too important. I say, don't you remember telling these gentlemen, Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, don't you remember making this statement that Himmler wouldn't talk to you as Vice President of the Bank, but that he would talk to Funk. You were quite upset when we told you that Funk had said that you were the man who originated this.
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: You got terribly upset about it. Don't you remember that?
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: Finally, this question: Are you serious in saying that you didn't know about these deposits until you were interrogated in Frankfurt, or what the nature of them was? In view of the Thoms affidavit, this exhibit that I have just shown you, and the whole examination this morning, do you want your testimony to close with the statement that you actually didn't know what was in these deposits at any time?
PUHL: I saw the statement put before me today, the statement by the treasury official put before me today, for the first time in Frankfurt, and never before. Moreover, I did not and could not, as Vice President, concern myself with the details of this transaction, for I was responsible for general economic and currency policy and for credits and such things. Besides, we had a whole staff of highly qualified officials in our treasury office; and if it had been necessary, they would have had to make a report to the Directorate of the Reichsbank.
MR. DODD: Of course you don't deny that you knew there were jewels and silver and all these other things in the deposits, do you?
PUHL: The German term "Schmucksachen," jewelry, was always used.
MR. DODD: All right! Let's see what you did know was in the deposits? You knew there was jewelry, some jewelry, there. You knew there was some currency. You knew there were coins. You knew there were other articles. Now, the only thing you didn't know was the dental gold; is that so?
PUHL: That is true, certainly. It was known from the outset, and Herr Pohl had told me, that the greater part of these deposits contained mainly gold, foreign currency, silver coins, and, he added, also "some jewelry."
MR. DODD: Well, now, the question I think you can answer simply is: Everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold you did know was on deposits from the SS. Don't you understand that question? I don't think it is complicated. You don't need to read anything, Herr Puhl. If you will just look up here, I am asking you if you know about everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold.
PUHL: Well, I knew about jewelry, but I did not know in detail what kind of jewelry it was.
MR. DODD: I am not asking you about details. I am simply asking if you did know it was there. You knew there was currency there, and you knew there were other articles there. Those are about the only things that are mentioned excepting the dental gold, and that is the one thing you seem now not to have known.
PUHL: Yes, I knew, in general, that the deposits contained gold and foreign currency, and I repeat that the jewelry...
MR. DODD: And jewelry?
PUHL: I knew that there was jewelry.
MR. DODD: So the only thing you say now you didn't know was the dental gold. That is all I am asking you. Why don't you answer that? It doesn't take very long. Isn't that so? The only thing you didn't know was the dental gold.
PUHL: No.
MR. DODD: Well, what else is mentioned you didn't know about?
PUHL: Spectacle frames, for example, were also mentioned.
MR. DODD: You didn't know about those either? All right, I will include those, spectacle frames and dental gold. These are the two things you didn't know about?
PUHL: Information I received contained only the general term "jewelry."
MR. DODD: They are the two matters that you had the most to worry about, aren't they, eye glass frames and dental gold? I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please. Don't take that man away. [Turning to the witness.] Have you got a copy of your affidavit before you?
PUHL: Of 3 May, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you only got one copy of it?
PUHL: I must just look-Yes, I have another copy.
THE PRESIDENT: Let me have it, please, will you? This document will be identified, and form part of the record. It had better be given whatever the appropriate number is.
MR. DODD: I believe, Mr. President, that it is already in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Not this particular document, it is not. This is the particular document he had before him; it has got a number of manuscript notes on it, and is in the English language. Mr. Dodd, you had better look at it.
MR. DODD: All right, Sir. I believe it would become Exhibit USA-851; I think that is the next number in sequence.
THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit USA-851; very well.
MR. DODD: I might say I think there is one question that might be helpful to the Tribunal with respect to this affidavit. Herr Puhl, you personally typed up a large part of this affidavit yourself, did you not, or wrote it up, or dictated it?
PUHL: A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it accordingly.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment; and then signed it after you had altered it? [The witness nodded assent.]
THE PRESIDENT: Do not nod; please answer. You said, "A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it." And I ask you, did you then sign it?
PUHL: Yes.
MR. DODD: And did you also initial those places that you altered on the original? Did you not put your initials in each place that you wanted to make a change? Isn't that so?
PUHL: No; we copied it again, it was completely rewritten...
MR. DODD: I know you copied it anew. Did you not mark the places that you wanted changed and say how you wanted it changed? You did, did you not?
PUHL: Yes; but that is of minor importance; for instance, the word for "Reichsbank" was changed to "Gold Discount Bank," and there were similar editorial changes.
MR. DODD: Well, I thought it might be helpful to the Tribunal to know that it was rewritten and initialed.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Francis Biddle, Member for the United States): Mr.Witness, I want to ask you a few questions. The first you heard about these transactions was from the Defendant Funk was it not?
PUHL: Yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did Funk tell you who had told him about them in the SS?
PUHL: Himmler.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Himmler had spoken to Funk about this? Who else, besides Himmler and Funk, was present when Funk talked to Himmler about this?
PUHL: That I do not know.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You do not know if Pohl was there also?