dtufail/nuremberg-trials-corpus huggingface dataset:
MILCH: That was a point which concerned Armaments more than the Central Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that Speer turned over to the United States all of his personal papers and records, including the minutes of this Central Planning Board?
MILCH: I did not know that; I hear it now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask that the minutes, volumes of minutes which constitute U.S. Document R-124, offered in evidence as French Exhibit Number RF-30, be made available for examination by the witness in the original German; I shall ask you some questions about it.
MILCH: Yes. [Document R-124 was submitted to the witness.]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If, you will point out to the witness Page 1059, Line 22. This, Witness, purports to be the minutes of Conference Number 21 of the Central Planning Board, held on the 30th of October 1942 at the Reich Ministry of Armament and Munitions, and the minutes show you to have been present. Do you recall being there at that meeting?
MILCH: In that one sentence, I cannot see it, but I can well assume it. Yes. I see here in the minutes that my name is frequently mentioned.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention -- Page 1059, Line 22 -- to the following entry and ask you if this refreshes your recollection about the functions of that Board: "Speer: The question of slackers is another point to be dealt with. Ley has ascertained that the number of people reporting sick decreased to one-fourth or one-fifth where there are factory doctors and the workers are examined by them. SS and Police could go ahead with the job and put those known as slackers into undertakings run by concentration camps. There is no other choice. Let it happen a few times, and the news will go round." Were you not concerned with the discussion of the labor situation in that conference, and does that not refresh your recollection as to the dealing with the labor question?
MILCH: I do recall that the question of slackers as a whole was discussed. It was rather a question of slackers, workers, people, who while not normally employed in peacetime, as a result of the total mobilization of manpower, were compelled to work during the war. Among these people, who did not belong to the ranks of the workers, I repeat that there were some slackers who upset the good spirit of the workers. It was those people we had in mind.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Those were to be sent to concentration camps, as you know?
MILCH: Yes, I was told that. But no decision was arrived at. Moreover, it was not for us to send anybody to a concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, was it not said that there was nothing to be said against the SS taking them over? You knew that the SS was running the concentration camps, did you not?
MILCH: Yes, of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And, therefore, you knew that turning them over to the SS and sending them to the concentration camps was a means of forcing them to produce more goods, was it not?
MILCH: Yes, of course, these people should be forced to do so. They were Germans who refused to do their duty to their country.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did this apply only to Germans?
MILCH: As far as I know this applied to Germans only. By slackers -- they were also called casual workers -- was meant only those people who went from place to place, who practically every week changed their job and who were reported to us mainly by the representatives of our own workers. Our own workers complained that these people availed themselves of all privileges as to food, et cetera , while they did not do anything, that they always gave up their jobs soon, and that every establishment was glad to get rid of them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And got rid of them by sending them to the concentration camps under the SS?
MILCH: They had to be taught, and we were told that if these people had their additional -- not their basic -- rations made dependent on their output, as was the case in the concentration camps, they would very quickly learn. I do, however, remember that it was proposed to limit this treatment to 2 or 3 months, after which they would be brought back, and if they had learned their lesson they would be given full freedom again.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, did you have anything to do on, the Central Planning Board with the work of prisoners of war?
MILCH: No; I do not think so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I ask that you be shown the 22d conference of the Central Planning Board minutes of the meeting held on the 2d of November 1942, Page 1042, at Line 24, which quotes you. The English translation is on Page 27. I ask you to refresh your recollection by reading this paragraph. "Milch: I think that agriculture must get its labor quota. Assuming that we had given agriculture 100,000 more workers, we would now have 100,000 more people who would be decently fed, whereas, the human material we are now receiving, particularly the prisoners of war, are not sufficiently fit for work." Did you make that statement?
MILCH: I cannot remember details. But I suppose I did. I do not know if I have seen these minutes; but I know that we dealt with the question that agriculture, if possible, should get its workers because the food problem was so very important, and the farms could feed their people over and above the rations which the civilian population received. This proposal to put these people on the land was quite in accordance with my views, but these were merely suggestions by the Central Planning Board. I know Sauckel was present at that meeting. We also made suggestions to the armament representatives as to how their problems could be solved.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you made recommendations to the Reich Marshal, did you not?
MILCH: I cannot remember having done so, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never did?
MILCH: I do not know, I cannot remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you knew the Reich Marshal's wishes in reference to the utilization of prisoners of war, did you not?
MILCH: That prisoners of war were also working was known to me. Especially on the land many prisoners of war were put to work.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you attend a meeting between the Fuehrer and Minister Speer?
MILCH: On which date?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The 5th of March 1944.
MILCH: The 4th of March?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The 5th of March 1944.
MILCH: On the 5th of March, yes, I attended a meeting with the Fuehrer. At that time there was a question of creating a "fighter" staff, that is, a general effort by the entire armament industry to produce as many fighter planes as possible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, now I will ask that you be shown Speer's memorandum of that meeting with the Fuehrer at which General Bodenschatz and Colonel Von Below were also present. Were they not? The English translation is on Page 35; the German on Page 139. I call your attention to this paragraph: "I told the Fuehrer of the Reich Marshal's wish to utilize the producing capacity of prisoners of war further by placing the Stalag under the SS, with the exception of the English and Americans. The Fuehrer approves this proposal and has asked Colonel Von Below to take the necessary steps." I ask you how the SS could increase the production of the prisoners of war; what steps you expected to be taken? Now, just answer my question. What steps did you expect the SS to take to increase the production of the prisoners of war?
MILCH: I cannot remember now. At any rate at that time we did not know what was being done by the SS -- about their methods as we now know them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This was in March of 1944.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you have no knowledge of the methods by which the SS would be able to speed up production by prisoners of war. That is the way you want that to stand?
MILCH: No, that is not the way I want it to stand. I have to think this point over for a moment. I believe the point was whether or not prisoners of war should be made available. It was not a question of prisoners of war working for the SS, but of their being made available for work. That, I take it was the point.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Put at the disposal of the SS, you mean? Well, let us go on to the 33d Conference by the Central Planning Board, held on the 16th of February 1943, at which Speer and Sauckel among others appear to have been present. The English translation is on Page 28; the German, Pages 2276 to 2307. There was at this meeting, to summarize, considerable discussion of the labor situation, first a report from Schreiber, and then Timm gave a general account of the labor situation, and I call your attention to your contribution on Page 2298 at the top.
MILCH: Yes, I have just read it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It is as follows: "Milch: We have demanded that in the anti-aircraft artillery a certain percentage of personnel should consist of Russians. Fifty thousand in all should be brought in. Thirty thousand are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing, that Russians must work the guns..." What was amusing about making the Russian prisoners of war work the guns?
MILCH: The words "We have demanded," do not mean the Central Planning Board, but that Hitler made this demand.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: "We" means Hitler?
MILCH: Yes, the German Government. And I myself find it strange that prisoners of war should be made to shoot at planes of their allies. We did not like it because it meant that these men could no longer work for us. We were opposed to their being used in the anti-aircraft artillery.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You said: "This is an amusing thing that the Russians must work the guns." What was amusing about it?
MILCH: What is meant by amusing? ... peculiar, strange, I cannot say, however, whether this word was actually used. I have not seen the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to the rest of your contribution. ". . . 20,000 are still needed. Yesterday I received a letter from the Army High Command, stating: We cannot release any more men, we have not enough ourselves.. Thus there is no prospect for us." Whom does "for us" refer to, if not to your industry requirements?
MILCH: I consider these minutes incorrect, it has never been discussed in this manner, it must be wrong. I cannot accept the minutes as they stand. To clarify this matter I may say that the proposal was to take people out of the armament industry and put them into anti-aircraft defense. We who were concerned with armament did not want to release these men and were opposed to it. That was the idea of the whole thing, and the OKH declared that they did not have enough people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understand the sense of this to be that you applied for certain workmen for the armament industry and that the Army High Command refused to give you the men, saying that they are already employed making guns and on other work. Now, is that the sense of that, or is it not?
MILCH: No, not quite.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, just tell me what the sense of it is.
MILCH: As far as I remember, the armament industry was to release 50,000 Russian prisoners of war to the Air Force for antiaircraft defense, and the armament industry could not spare these people.
THE PRE SIDENT: I am afraid we must adjourn due to some technical difficulty. [A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, it may be convenient to you to know that we are going to rise at 4:30 today.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I hope to have finished before. [Turning to the witness.] I will ask to have your attention called to Page 2297, in the English translation about Page 28, to your contribution, which reads as follows: "Milch: There is of course a front also somewhere in the East. This front will be held for a certain time. The only useful thing the Russians will find in an area evacuated by us, is people. The question is whether the people should not generally be taken back as far as 100 kilometers behind the front line. The whole civilian population goes 100 kilometers behind the front." Do you find that?
MILCH: Yes, I have found it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I understood you this morning to state that it was a rule promulgated in your book that the civilian population should not be interfered with.
MILCH: From the last paragraph, according to which people were no longer to be employed on digging trenches, it appears that these people were last employed on this work. I cannot say what kind of people these were, only that they were already employed somewhere.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that. You knew that they were being used for that kind of work?
MILCH: So it says here. I do not remember it any more. It has been recorded in the minutes, provided they are correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew they were being used, the civilian population was being forced to dig trenches for your troops.
MILCH: Today I cannot remember any more, but at that time it was discussed according to the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I will ask, to have your attention called to the minutes of Conference Number 11 of the Central Planning Board, held on 22d of July 1942; German, Page 3062; English translation, 38. First let me call your attention to the fact that at that meeting it appears that among those present were Speer, yourself, Korner. Did Korner represent the Reich Marshal?
MILCH: Yes, for the Four Year Plan; he was the representative for the Four Year Plan.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At all meetings of this Board, Korner represented the Reich Marshal did he not?
MILCH: Yes. He represented him as regards the Four Year Plan.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Sauckel was present, and representatives from the Iron Association, the Coal Association, and the Ministry for Armament and Munitions.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There was considerable discussion of the labor problem, and the requirements of those industries. On Page 3062 1 call your attention to this entry: "General Field Marshal Milch undertakes to accelerate the procuring of the Russian prisoners of war from the camps." I ask you what measures you expected to take to accelerate procuring prisoners of war from the camps.
MILCH: As I was a soldier I undertook to submit this question to the OKW, which was in charge of prisoners of war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not personally deal with the prisoners of war, but you undertook to obtain them from the OKW?
MILCH: The government had put these prisoners of war at our disposal for work. The transfer was very slow, and as we had to deal with the OKW in this matter, I was asked and I undertook to request the OKW to speed up the transfer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now let us turn to Conference Number 36, dated 22d of April 1943; the English translation, Page 13; German, 2125. There again I call your attention to the fact that Speer, yourself, Sauckel, and Korner were among those present. There again you discussed the labor problem, did you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Korner reported as follows: "On 1 April agriculture was still in need of about 600,000 workers. To cover this, labor from the East, mainly women, should be brought in. This labor must be supplied before we take other workers away from agriculture. We are now approaching a very busy season in work on the land which requires many workers," -- and considerably more, which I will not take the time to quote. I call your attention to Page 2128, your contribution to that discussion, which reads as follows: "If you do what I proposed and what has also been agreed to by Timm, no harm can be done. It should definitely be done. Moreover, I am also of the opinion that in any circumstances we have to bring in workers for coal mining. The bulk of the labor we are going to receive from the East, will be women. The women from the East are, however, accustomed to agricultural work, particularly to the kind of work which will have to be done during the next few weeks, that is, hoeing and planting of root crops, et cetera . We can use women quite well for this. Only one thing has to be kept in mind -- agriculture must get the women before the men are taken away. It would be wrong to take men away and to leave the farmers without labor 'for 4 to 6 weeks. If the women come after that, it will be too late." I ask you how many women were transported to agriculture as a result of this conference?
MILCH: As a result of this conference none at all, as only suggestions were put forward by us for an arrangement between industry and agriculture to procure the necessary labor for the former. Without the necessary labor in the coal-mining industry the war could not be carried on. Therefore labor had to be found, and in this respect a suggestion was made for an exchange, namely, to replace men engaged in agriculture by women, who, of course, could not be put to work in the mines.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: To whom did you make these suggestions? You say they were not decisions but just suggestions.
MMCH: No. The suggestions were made to representatives of the Ministry of Labor or to the Office for the Allocation of Labor. I see Timm is mentioned. He was one of the higher officials in this ministry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Sauckel?
MILCH: I do not know whether Sauckel attended that conference. I see only Timm's name.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It appears from the minutes that he was there; but whether he was or not, you made suggestions to Sauckel as to the needs for labor, did you not, and called upon him to supply them?
MILCH: Yes; it was necessary to get workers for coal mining. New workers could not be found, thus there was no alternative but to make an exchange.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We understand you. You will save a great deal of our time if you will just answer the questions. Now I call your attention to Conference Number 54 of the Central Planning Board, held on 1 March 1944; English translation Page 1, German Page 1762. At this conference I remind you that it appears that Sauckel, Milch, Schreiber, and Korner were among those present. It was held at the Air Ministry and you discussed the desirability of draining off young men from France so that they would not be available to act as partisans in case there was an invasion by the Allies of French territory. Do you recall such a meeting?
MILCH: I cannot remember details. In the course of other interrogations here in Nuremberg and in England I already stated that it is impossible to remember in detail all these matters, which were heaped upon us, especially as my memory has suffered through heavy blows on the head received at the time of my capture.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It will help you if you will refer to Page 1799, opposite the name "Milch" and read the entry, as follows: "Milch: If landings take place in France and more or less succeed, we will have in France a partisan uprising, such as we never had in the Balkans or in the East, not because the people are particularly able to carry it through, but because we allow them to do so by failing to deal with them in the right manner. Four entire age groups have grown up in France, men between 18 and 23, that is, of an age when young people, for patriotic reasons or because they have been stirred up, are prepared to do anything to satisfy personal hatred -- and it is only natural that they do hate us. These young men should have been registered according to age groups and brought to us, as they constitute the greatest danger in the event of a landing. "I am firmly convinced, and have said so several times, that if and when the invasion starts, acts of sabotage to railways, works, and supply bases will be a daily occurrence. The Wehrmacht, however, will then no longer be able to deal with this internal situation, as it will have to fight at the front and will have in its rear a very dangerous enemy who will threaten supplies, et cetera . If severe executive measures had been taken, all would have been as quiet as the grave behind the front at a time when things were about to happen. I have drawn attention to this several times, but I am afraid nothing is being done. When we have to start shooting these people, it will already be too late. We shall no longer have the men to polish off the partisans." You then go on to state that you think the Army should handle the executive action required in rounding up these people. Does that refresh your recollection?
MILCH: Yes, that was roughly what I meant to say, but I cannot say whether I used these very words. In this life and death struggle of our country we had to make sure that we were not suddenly stabbed in the back by a secret army, as unfortunately happened later on.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you proposed to eliminate the population behind the lines insofar as they might constitute a menace to your operations in this invasion?
MILCH: No, it was proposed to send these people at the right time to work in Germany, as had been promised by the French Government. That was my view. It was necessary that these people should come to work in Germany, as the French Government had promised in its agreement with the German Government, instead of allowing these people to join the Maquis and commit sabotage, which would necessitate shootings as a countermeasure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not confine your use of forced labor to your enemies; it was also applied against your own allies, was it not? For example turn to Page 1814, and did you not contribute to this discussion? "Milch: Would not the S-factories" -- that is, protected factories -- "be better protected if we handle the whole problem of feeding the Italians and tell them: 'You will get your food only if you work in S-factories or come to Germany.'"
MILCH: That was after a part of Italy had broken away, and it applied to Italian soldiers who had declared themselves against Mussolini. These people remained behind the front, did not want to work, and committed sabotage against the German Armed Forces. Thus it was proposed to say to these people, "You will have your food and everything else provided, but you will have to work somewhere, either in Italy in the iron ore mines, or in Germany."
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you said in your direct examination, or perhaps earlier in your cross-examination, that you did not know about any forced labor from occupied territory, you had no knowledge of that. Is that still your statement?
MILCH: I did not quite understand that. Forced labor?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Forced labor, yes.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not know about it?
MILCH: These people were prisoners of war, Italians, who were at our disposal for work according to an agreement with the Italian Government which we had recognized. Mussolini had expressly put these men at our disposal for this purpose.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Excuse me for interrupting you, but let us not bother with Mussolini here. I ask you whether you still stand by the statement you made earlier, as I recall it, that you did not know of any forced labor brought in from the occupied countries to Germany. Is that your statement, or is it not?
MILCH: Insofar as they were free workers and free people, I still maintain this. My point is that these were people who had been placed at our disposal, and, Mr. Justice, as far as we are concerned, at the time this was said there was still an Italian Government, though this fact is forgotten today; but at that time it still existed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask that your attention be brought to Page 1827 of the minutes of this meeting at which you were present, and where the discussion you just admitted took place; and I call your attention to the line opposite the name "Sauckel," from which it appears that Sauckel then reported: "Out of the 5 million foreign workers who arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily."
MILCH: No, I cannot remember that at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You do not have any recollection of that? All right.
MILCH: No, I have no recollection of that.