Guten Tag! Wanted to touch base about your plans for this year. your destruction, mostly. but plans can change Nobody makes it far without friends in this game. I suppose you're hoping to be friends with France then? I don't consider it wise to put stock in any friendship until it's proven. However, I tend to trust people more if they are willing to give me some information before asking it from me Well, that makes two of us then. You're welcome to ask a specific question if you have one though. Alright then. What are your plans for the North Sea these days? I'll be moving there this spring. Just doing a pretty standard northern opening. You taking the fleet to Holland or Denmark (or somewhere else)? My fleet is Holland-bound. Pleasure doing business 😃 Alright, thanks for letting me know. I'd also like to talk about me going to Belgium. I imagine this is something a bit less amenable to you, but maybe something we could bargain over? Well, now the Belgium discussion changes a bit. France has this secured unless we collaborate in opposition. Also, I can prevent your move to Denmark. I'd be amenable to that. To be clear, Would you want me to move my fleet to Belgium while your North Sea fleet supports? So I could do this, but to secure the move you would also have to cut the support from Bur that France will likely give to move Pic to Bel. You can just attack Bur from Mun to do this. Also, providing this support is a bit of a favor and might put me at odds with France. Would you be willing to offer Denmark to sweeten the deal for me? how can you take Denmark while also supporting me from the north sea? Oh I'm talking about next year. Should have clarified. But this would require you keeping out this year. I'm sorry, but why? Why couldn't I hold it for this Winter and then dip in the Spring to let you in? I'd sooner keep Denmark and let you be the one to occupy Belgium, if that's preferable (i.e. support your North sea fleet moving there) The reason is because I'd need your support into denmark to be sure russia couldn't bump me out. And it's putting a lot of trust in you to expect you'll just clear the way for me. Well so what do you think of my counter offer, then? I certainly appreciate it. The only issue is that it still doesn't guarantee Belgium for me. France may support Bur from Pic instead, and then it would be a bounce. I have it on, admittedly, Italian authority that France is trying to make a play for Munich from Burgundy. But even if that weren't the case, vacating burgundy would leave Marseilles vulnerable to me. So I think the only option for France that wouldn't be Pyrrhic is to move from Pic That's fair. At the least I'd like to keep France out of Belgium, even if I don't end up with it. Also I had to look up Pyrrhic haha haha -- so, do we have a deal, then? I'll attack Burgundy while supporting your move to belgium, and you'll let me take Denmark this turn? Yes, we have a deal. Your holland fleet supports Nth to Bel and I stay out of Denmark this turn. you have a healthy sense of distrust and I respect that. But I appreciate you not trying to keep me out of Denmark nonetheless. Also, do you have thoughts on how we might collaborate next year? What are your goals, and what are your concerns? You’re giving me too much credit. I forgot to click submit on my order for the north sea or something. Was surprised myself to see a hold there. So why did you back out of the deal then? Preferred to see France there. I can understand why you might have made that move, but I think it’s actually bad for both of us. Even if you and France team up to knock me out, france will get the better part of that deal and will then work with Russia to take you down. If I work with France, we’ll bring Russia in on it (who needs some help after what happened with Turkey). This looks good for all three of us, and very bad for you. The last option is for us to work together against France. On the one hand, this is a good move because France is a strong player in a strong position. On the other hand, how am I supposed to trust you at all to cooperate? Real talk: I was given bad information that you and France were working together last round, which does not seem to be the case, but that's why I didn't follow through on our deal. I am well positioned now to take Belgium, and I can see now that, as you say, it would be much easier on me to ally with you rather than try to take you down even with France's help. But I can understand if you don't want to trust me. I was working with France, and I still have a positive relationship with france. We agreed to stay out of the english channel, and france had agreed to support me into belgium. But this was about hedging my bets, not working against you. And you see how that played out haha. France would love for me to be an ally in taking you out of the game over the next couple of years. They’ve been talking about convincing russia to help with the takedown. A joint stab against france would require a high level of collaboration on our end. Something like an agreement to essentially act as one country up until a certain year. Sharing all planned moves, following up on them etc. So this would be my condition for working together. I would be willing to do that, but as I see it, you have no reason to choose France as an ally over me at this point. So, why me? *choose me as an ally over france So my reasoning is that I think France is a stronger player than either of us, or at least a more engaged one. I'm getting all this tactical analysis and commentary about the state of the whole board and all that. If I help France, France probably beats me. If we defeat France together, I think we each end up with an even fighting chance. So basically France is too smart to be left alive and the world ought to belong to us idiots 😂 What about Russia? Haha yeah that was kind of my thinking. Russia is a little tied up in the south, and so I don't expect aggression in the north. However, france would respond to a stab by begging for Russian (and potentially austrian and italian) assistance. So the choice next year is between containing russia or being aggressive (which would mean going for sweden or St. P). I think the builds we see this winter will make it more clear what's possible. Speaking of, what are your planned builds? I'm building a fleet in London. Armies in Kiel and Munich What are your plans for your north sea and London fleets?

I'm trying to decide now how best to handle Belgium and that is going to depend on whether France is concerned with defending Brest or if instead they expect help from you in disrupting anything I try to do from Holland. 

...I can offer you support in moving into Sweden in exchange for supporting my Burgundy troops into Belgium? Is that worth more than whatever France might be offering you right now? Any thoughts on my offer?
I have another proposal if you’re interested England. You're killin me here. Hey sorry. Busy evening for me. Let me think a second and respond to all this.. Ok so for one thing France isn't exactly offering me anything, so there's no real comparison of your offer vs theirs. My once concern about the full-on france stab would be that the job couldn't be done quickly enough. We could force Bel this year, but we unfortunately wouldn't be able to put France down a unit because Spa is a guarantee for France. This may even allow for a rebuild in Bre if the Belgian army gets dislodged. That's where my new plan comes in! Ok what's the sitch You move fleets to Eng, Ska, and Nth this turn. Italy moves to Pie. I move Hol-Bel, Kie-Ruh, Bur-Gas, Mun-Bur. Now, France might foresee me attempting to take Gas, but more likely they want to dislodge me from Bur. This puts them in a position where they will have to lose one of Paris, Belgium, Marseilles, or Brest, and will not be able to vacate the others for building season. France could stop by bumping Par and Mar in Gas right? And you're suggesting my moves a setup of going against russia? Also, have you talked to Italy about this? Damn--I didn't think of the bumping. (sorry, this is just my first game and I'm still learning). And yeah I thought you'd want to grab Sweden because why not? 

I haven't discussed the full plan, but they seemed amenable to moving to pie Okay how about this: Keep your fleets in NWG and NTH, but move to ENG. Have NTH support HOL-BEL. 
I'll attack BUR-PIC, move KIE-RUH, MUN-BUR. If France does a Gascon Bounce, They'll have to lose either Brest or Paris or Marseilles. If they try to dislodge me instead, I'll retreat to Gascony. 
You still get my support to march on Sweden in Fall if desired. Keep in mind that Munich is vulnerable. Italy and Austria may have a deal in the works for that. But this is the sort of plan that I had thought through originally. This would be a break of my DMZ with France in the channel. Which is why the success of a stab like this is especially important. well ya could have saved me some brain cells by sharing it in the first place! 😛  
And Italy and Austria, unless they're lying, think of me as an ally. That said, my plan doesn't actually involve vacating Munich Oh fair, because you're not actually moving into Pic, you're just cutting the support. I had you moving from Bur to Bel. Dislodging the French army from Bel could result in a disband. And if we don't get an additional supply center could mean a rebuild in Brest, which would be bad for me (adding Spain is probably a given). Have you considered the potential support of Mar from Spa s.c. ? Yeah if my calculations are correct the French home supply centers hold. First move is to bounce in Gas to keep you out, then move spain to s.c. and lose bel. Next move is to support hold in mar from spain s.c. and then bounce paris to brest to keep me out. Bre, Par, and Mar all hold in the fall. OK, Marseilles might be a no-go this round then. 

If you don't want a rebuild in Brest, we'll simply attack Picardy and force a retreat to Brest by an army. Not so bad for your fleet, right? I'll move into Paris from BUR wait I mean A retreat to burgundy by that army. Then the Parisian Army will be in brest, so no rebuild will occur Well, it kind of becomes rock paper scissors there. If I try to go into Brest it's a bounce and it remains open. If I don't, and France takes the risk of not going (probably won't happen) then it would stay open too. Sounds like you'd like the belgian army to disband though. I understand, as it could help somebody out to take munich from Ruh. whoa dude I just want a supply center don't go talking about people invading the fatherland

So are you saying no deal, then? No, I'm just echoing your probable reasoning for wanting the disband of the belgian army rather than its retreat to Ruh. I don't see what that has to do with you, though? Like what difference does it make to you whether that army disbands or retreats to Ruh? The disband allows for a rebuild, if there's an open home supply center and France still has 5 total. So this could mean building a fleet in Brest. ohhh I see. So what you're saying is you'd accept the deal if I didn't arrange for the disband and allowed a retreat to Ruh? Let me sleep on it. I may be fine regardless. I'll confirm moves in the morning. But for this plan, Spring looks like your support into Sweden and my support into Belgium. I'll be very curious to see moves from Russia-Italy-Austria. If they all converge in on you, this could be trouble. I doubt that level of collaboration is going to happen though. hang on would you be willing to postpone your sweden march until Fall? I'm not so keen on forcing Russia into the baltic You'd still hold sweden by winter Yeah that would be fair. Just need to run it by russia that norway is a hold in the spring so that doesn’t raise any eyebrows Well, or you could march into Finland just to spice things up Well England you've taught me an important lesson This isn’t a full stab. I’m sorry for the deception though. I hadn’t heard whether Italy was anti-French. Now I have. I’m taking Denmark this year with Russian support. I’m sorry for that too. Kiel can’t save it. I’d suggest you bounce kiel and munich in Ruh and then attack holland from belgium to cut support . This will hold the line (unless france decides to let you into belgium, which would be unlikely). I know you don’t want to take advice from me, but you’re kind of in survival mode now. We can talk about belgium for you next year to get you back on your feet. England, I have 0.0 reason to trust your advice regarding France. You're so clearly working with them! I think the tactical suggestion stands on its own though. You can work through the rules to verify it makes sense (and should, in case i’m making a mistake). Also I don’t know france’s moves this season. And you should ping italy to talk about me. Nice! I guess you knew what you were doing. well not really--I just assumed that attacking a convoying fleet would disrupt the convoy and that was apparently wrong Yeah you have to dislodge. But you held ruhr! And my way wouldn’t have worked actually. That’s a stalemate line if you do the same moves except the fleet goes to belgium (i think). Can only be broken if i support it. Of course france could choose to let you in to ruhr as well Hi, not sure what you heard from italy. Looking forward to the three of us working against france though. Let me know where you’re at with this. I’d help you into belgium this year. Okay, I’m down to cooperate. Ok. All i need from you in the spring is to not attack Nth. Then i’ll support myself into the channel. Then i support you into belgium in the fall. And i don’t touch holland, kiel, or berlin. And russia doesn’t either. Maybe we get italy to move to Pie? Hi. I’m guessing the move to HEL was to cut support. Should have let you know I was moving out. Are you still interested in collaboration for survival? We’re both a bit threatened right now. Hi—yeah, because of bot troubles I never got reassured last turn that you wouldn’t support, say, France into belgium or something. So now here we are! France asked me to bump Nth to cut your channel support, just fyi To be clear I don’t intend to do that since I basically need everyone to fall back to keep my holdings this turn.
Do you have any clue what russia’s plans are? Not sure what russia will do, but I’d be a little concerned about berlin being surrounded. I won’t be attacking Kiel so your support will go through from there. Does France think you’ll be cutting support? Also, Italy has been sending some anti-french things my way. A three-on-one alliance could be good for all of us. Containing Russia may distract both of us if he gets aggressive. I told France (truthfully) that I couldn't cut your support this turn Cool. Do you need me to cut support in BAL or do you have that covered with Munich support? Also, Italy is on board with a stab against France. Italy told me that, too. And actually, if I could count on you to cut BAL support, it would free up Kiel to try and defend Ruhr from france for a turn. However, if you're using that denmark fleet for something else just let me know So I have kind of a crazy idea. I'm curious what you'd think of this. What if I let you into Denmark and I go for Sweden? Well, if France goes for Holland I'd be in a slightly strategically worse position. I was thinking you'd go from Kiel and bounce Holland with the HEL fleet. Then you get your build in Kiel that wouldn't work because I need kiel to support berlin, i think? Is Munich occupied doing something else? Italy told me he has no plans of cutting support there. Oh I guess Bur can do that though... that was my fear... Hmm... Yeah it may be safe to not do that then. Maybe next year. I may go for Sweden regardless. But if russia sees it coming and goes in, that could be a bit annoying But without action, Russia probably takes Ank this fall and builds in Stp. Is it worth losing the channel this turn? because you could take sweden for sure if you were willing to use nth to convoy Nth can't convoy to Sweden. SKA is in the way. doesn't need to. just convoy to norway and move your fleet from norway to sweden. then attack the baltic fleet from denmark. that way you don't lose norway BAL could move to sweden to bounce. only way to guarantee would be to support from Denmark ah crap you're right. sorry, wish I could help but all I have are land troops No worries. I'll give it a shot regardless. And if I do get the extra build, I can provide some serious support to your moves west Things are getting a little rowdy haha. The good news is that we both outlasted Turkey! RIP. go team! you held the channel! but no sweden yet... Yeah. I think the bounce there will be a start of negotiations with Russia. Clearly we were both on the same page. And you got holland back! ach but now there's French in ruhr that'll be a pain A bit. France starts to crumble when I don't have to support my fleet anymore, which is when Italy forces France to go south with its MAO fleet. Then I can start supporting your moves and we can get you into belgium, etc. Are you gonna try for sweden again this season? France told me that they're not moving their Mid-Atlantic fleet and instead would prefer to oust you from the channel. 

Italy gave me the idea of supporting your Welsh troops to convoy into Belgium. But if I did would you mind giving it to me in the Fall? I could be way more useful to you if I could build another unit this winter (I told france I'd interrupt your support from Nth in exchange for France letting me take belgium next round, but at this point I almost don't think of Belgium as being theirs to give, hence I'd rather work with you) Russia and I plan to repeat the Sweden bounce. If that's to be trusted, this frees up Kiel and Munich. I'm happy to give you belgium. My idea of the split is you get Bel and Par, I get Bre and Por, and Italy gets Mar and Spa. Obviously this won't all happen this year. But you in Bel makes sense long-term The convoy makes me a bit nervous because if France goes to IRI, they'll get a home supply center in the fall. Okay, no convoy then. 

How do you feel about reneging with Russia? If you moved into the baltic instead of bouncing and I moved into Denmark (this is also insurance in case I can't end up with Belgium this year), I could support you into sweden in the fall? I'd prefer to keep neutral with russia, as fighting a war on two fronts would be a lot for me. Belgium isn't guaranteed for you this year, but I think it's likely. France will have to respect the pressure in the south from Italy. This frees me up to cut support in Pic and support you in from Nth. Then you just have to cut support in Ruh and Bur (if there's still something there in the fall). If France is honest with me, Ruhr will be free and Bur will be occupied. 

Let's be real here, though: Russia has at most two units to spare to threaten you, and likely not even that given the imminent pressure from Austria. I'm trying to work it out in the sandbox now but I really don't think they'd be an issue for you... Russia can support into Norway once he's in Sweden, and NTH won't be free to stop that. Okay that checks out. Thanks for your patience!

...I was thinking of asking russia to support me into denmark this turn and offer to support them into sweden next season. I'm doing this a) to confirm for you that they're on board with the bump as you say, and b) to show that I'd like to work to build trust with them. However, if Russia already knows you and I are working together this will establish the opposite of trust. So I guess I'm asking if you think this is a good/useful idea, and also asking what russia knows about our plans? Russia can only suspect that we're working together at this point. I haven't given any indication of collaboration. I'd say ask away. Are you definitely committed to not cutting support in Nth? I really, really am. Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but because of my alliance with Italy, who is in turn strongly allied with Austria, I just don't see myself ever getting anywhere in this game unless I can expand westward into France. Hence, even though you're honestly scarier right now I'm inclined to be on your side for the foreseeable future. 
Now, you could just go copy-paste this message to France and I'd be royally screwed, so I hope that helps you believe you can trust me. Haha ok, glad to get the confirmation. On my end i’ll confirm I am totally anti-french until France is out of the game. I’ve actually ceased communications with France (maybe something we can all do once the stab is clear). I’d like all three of us to get our two builds each together. Then we can look east. Russia's loyal to you even in the face of my temptation, btw. We’re in a great spot. Belgium for you is a guarantee. Planning to take from holland or ruhr? Why do you ask? I assumed you were going to disrupt support from Picardy with a convoyed army while I disrupted Burgundy? That way you can still use Nth to support the channel in case France decides not to bother defending in the south I’m a little worried that a clever france may let me into Pic, knowing that belgium is gone, and then move into IRI for invasion. I’d almost rather cut Pic with the channel and risk losing the channel. And my favorite option is to support ruh to bel from nth, also risking the channel. The logic is that if I lose the channel, it won’t be for very long, but if I lose a home supply center, that will be very annoying. France seems pretty upset with me, so a kamikaze move to screw me over isn’t out of the question. Yeah, I'm getting that vibe from France too. Let's go with moving me from Ruhr Sounds good. Consistent with that theory, we’d advise italy to support into Spain instead of Mar. It’s a tough call though I mean, not really. The way Italy's positioned it seems like Spain is the only right call and that Marseilles will fall like a domino on a fault line next spring?

...unless we could confirm that France really doesn't intend to defend. Then Italy could potentially swipe both in one swoop. But even if France is saying such things to me (and they are) it's still a risk Marseilles isn't guaranteed to fall next spring. Suppose Italy supports into Spa. France can block that supporting MAO from Gas. Suppose in the spring, Italy changes course and goes for Mar. France can then support Bur to Mar from Gas. Unless I'm missing something, it's a guessing game until you're in Bur. God dammit. Just when I think I get this game, I’m still not clear on how the ‘coast’ thing works with fleets Do you think I could trust Russia not to try to swipe Munich if I tried to take Bur this turn? Yeah the territory can only be occupied by one unit regardless of coast. But a fleet must go to either the north or south coast. MAO can go to both. The coast matters if say you want to go from Spain to Mar. You can go there from the south coast, but not the north coast. And if you wanted to do this, you could coordinate a bounce with the Ber and Tyr armies so Russia can't sneak in. You're planning to sneak into Mun unsupported? sneak into Bur* well, at least to try for it. i hadnt thought of bumping with italy because i assumed tyr would move into pie Well your move only works if we let Bur into Mar, which means Italy doesn't try for Mar, which means pie would hold. oh i thought italy was trying for spa? or rather, wherever italy decides to go there's a chance it might work, and then they'd want someone in pie We'll have to see which move Italy wants to make. If Italy goes for Spa, the choice is between a hold or an attack from Pie. I would say a hold makes most sense for Italy if you've decided you're going for Bur. This is because the alternative may be a bounce with Bur and Pie armies in Mar that would foil your plan to get to Bur and wouldn't give Italy anything. Okay that makes sense then. As long as Italy doesn't want to try to convoy into Spain from Pie. Then Marseilles could be left open *and* tyrolia could potentially move into piedmont Yeah that could be an idea. Well, let me know when you hear from Italy. The good news is France will definitely be down one this year and maybe down two. And our progress will continue next year. At some point we should talk about post-war things. Does post-war things mean how we're going to deal with a seriously overpowered Austria/Italy? Yeah. Though the move into Trieste by Italy is interesting. I'm actually starting to worry about collaboration with France. Would Italy really be so greedy as to start a war on two fronts? Also, had you asked for a hold in Pie? (not that it would have changed the outcome) I asked but Italy told me that they couldn’t guarantee they would or wouldn’t, and I can understand wanting to keep that info need-to-know. But what makes you think Italy and France would collaborate?? Also, I’m not so sure you should read that seizing of trieste as an act of war; Italy *did* help Austria take two supply centers this turn. Austria might have given it willingly *would or wouldn’t hold Pie Austria expressed frustration to me about it. Also, Austria can't build. All of its home supply centers are occupied. And Italy only helped with one supply center, right? And yeah the France theory may be a little paranoid, but why would Italy make an enemy out of Austria now while occupied with France? What are your thoughts on the France campaign for this year? Also, italy and austria’s stories about trieste don’t line up. Italy says it was an offering Right that's what Italy told me, too. So I'm not sure. Can I confront Italy with what Austria told you?

I will be moving Kie-Ruh for sure.
We can half-heartedly attack Pic this spring if you want (I'll move Bel-Pic, you support), though I doubt we'll get anywhere with it
Munich will support Kie-Ruh
And Fall I'll do a three-sided assault on Bur. 
None of this is very exciting though.  If Italy can't make headway we'll probably be stuck in a holding pattern until you can shift some resources from the baltic. Actually, I got Italy on board to coordinate with us to leave one of Marseilles or Spain open for France to fall into. If you’re feeling adventurous, you could try for Mao, or if not I’ll try for Bur. Let me know which you prefer and we’ll talk plans Italy is now saying that he told a secret that Austria didn't want him to tell, and that I shouldn't tell Austria that I know that Trieste was arranged... Sigh. I'll get back to you on MAO. Likely I won't, but maybe with very friendly Russian disbands. Trying for Bur makes sense. Well you couldn't ask for friendlier disbands than that! What do you think about making a play for MAO? What if I could get Italy onboard to support you in from WES? Also, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on taking Russia's northern holdings. 
On the one hand, it's more power for you, but on the other weakening Russia is pretty much the same as feeding Austria. I'm nervous about MAO because I'd really like to keep holding the channel. Yeah I need to decide what to do with Russia. It's really tempting to scoop up some supply centers, but that would be the end of Russia. In other news, France (who continues to message in spite of my ghosting) just pointed out that Italy has a number 1 ranking on playdiplomacy.com. The username checks out, but that's about as far as I can verify. Right France told me too. So it may be worth reconsidering our deal with the devil I think France may still have to go though. We can't be both allied with France. Geographically it doesn't really make sense. However, me you and Russia vs Austria and Italy might work well for us. I think so too. But, realistically, as things stand now you, me, and Russia V. italy/austria just looks like me and russia getting sh*tkicked while you hang out in the back. So the question ought to be, can we afford to take down france before I/A get too powerful? Or is it worth it to put aside eating France to nip this in the bud? Russia's actually in a really good position if I choose not to invade. I'd have to go over the tactics, but I'm pretty sure that line will hold in the south. And then you can support Mun from Kiel. When the time comes I can bring my fleets around this year to support the attack on France, and that would put us in good position to face italy. But we'd have to play it off as just going for France until France is gone. but i thought you said you weren't gonna go for MAO? I won't try from the channel. But I can bring the Nwy fleet around this year. Why the fleet in berlin btw? Well I figured that I'd need at least one more eventually, and that since my whole northern border is coastal a fleet might be better for defending that. But it'll be all armies after this I think. That makes sense, though it does seem like it will be stuck there for a while unless you start coming for me and russia Well at some point we'll all turn on each other, I assume. But I don't see that happening for a while. Not til France Italy and Austria are dealt with We can always play to a three way draw! So does this mean you would be committed to a Russia-Germany-England alliance until the others are dealt with? And to a point you made a few messages ago about me hanging in the back: Dealing with Italy is going to take a lot from me. He's got the fleets that only I can deal with. Yes, that's what this means. However, Italy and France are both pretty talkative with me these days which could be useful for us. So don't go spreading it around that my true allegiance right now is to you and Russia.
 
And speaking of fleet things: if you're not doing anything with Nth this turn anyway, could you help me out by supporting Hol-Bel? I think it makes sense for me to have a fleet with channel access in case you ever need support or a bounce there to keep France out. Maybe some sunny day you'd even trust me to hold it for you, though I understand if not. What sorts of things are you hearing from Italy and France? Also, are you talking to Russia? I'm planning to support the channel with Nth I just messaged Russia. I told them about your suggestion of a three-way alliance, and that I was mainly focussed on attacking the west this year but if needed I could readjust to spare somebody to support in the east.

I haven't heard back from France yet, but I am sort of playing double-agent with Italy to ensure that France can continue countering Italy's Spa/Mar plays and it just looks like luck. This keeps Italy in check until you and I make progress in the north and are better positioned to push Italy back.

I should have mentioned, but a third reason for the fleet build last turn was to keep France's trust. I figured it made sense anyway for the other two reasons I mentioned, but I did want to make sure France is willing to listen to me about Italy. Interesting that Italy was willing to give up his guess to you. I had considered the idea of feeding France info like this, but he wouldn't have believed anything I told him. And yeah it makes sense that something else was going on with the fleet situation. What moves do you have planned westward? Italy was willing to give up their guess because I requested that Marseilles be left open so I could take Bur, (which I plan to attempt w/ Munich this turn), and Italy agreed. Did italy explain why he didn't keep his end of the deal? Cause he moved to Mar no I mean this turn Ah ok. Cause we had talked about it last turn as well. Last turn they didn't give me anything useful Gotcha. Italy had asked me for support into MAO, which would not be consistent with that though. I did say no. Or rather haven't said yes. I'm curious about the timing though. Today at 5:11 PM, italy said to me: "If I leave Marseilles open, would you kindly use Burgundy in the Fall to help me take Marseilles? (Likely that means ordering Burgundy to Gascony to cut support)". So, it could be that both are true and Italy plans to do *neither*--rather than try to take Spa, Italy's gonna try rearranging? *5:11 central time Ok at 6:08 PM EST, italy asked about MAO. So that's around the same time. I'm not going to support MAO and told Italy as much. France would probably just cut in Bre anyways. Was that the reasoning you gave for not supporting? Just that it wouldn't be fruitful because France would cut support. I also said that I was eyeing it for next year (which will be obvious from my upcoming move of the Nwy fleet) Alright well sounds like we resolved that little mystery. Statecraft is exhausting. Haha yeah. I don't know if I would do online diplomacy again (I've only done it in person). I've spent wayy too much time thinking about this game. But it's alson been fun I'm prepping for an august in-person game I have scheduled with some friends I have also been spending way too much time thinking about this! Yeah the days between adjudications are just too much. I agree. In person is exhausting for other reasons though. You have to take a whole day out and it’s much more stressful when you have 15 minute negotiations and everyone is in the same house. oh I didn't even think of the logistics of in person negotiating! So if you and Russia disappear for five minutes everybody knows somethings up? Yeah, and also you see little cliques start to form. Like three countries will get together and then go quiet when someone else walks in the room. And you can just shout stuff to the room if you want. Also tactical and order errors are more common. And intentional order errors are a thing. That sounds like a perfect storm of social- and tactical-anxiety inducing stimuli. I think the ideal thing from my perspective would be online play with three adjudications per day. So it's about the same level of commitment as a really active group chat. Yeah people get pretty emotional. And I do it with a group of friends too. We decided we could only handle it once every 6 months or so. three times a day would be too much for me I think. I feel like I wouldn't get any work done. I could see that. But sacrifices have to be made. Haha I'm NOT a multitasker, so I'd bet the sacrifice is bigger for me than it is for you. Also, I feel like it would be easier almost if I wasn't on the computer all day for work as it was. But having work and recreation competing for the same screen is really distracting for me. you just described me. and my situation. But I take summers as pseudo-vacation so there's not as much consequence Yeah that's not a bad way to do it. I'm a grad student in the same school/department as admin actually. So I've also got a pseudo-vacation not taking classes or anything, but I'm still trying to be productive. I'm in admin's department too! I should have realized: only grad students feel as guilty about spending time doing things they enjoy as you seem to 😛 
But back to business: any chance of letting me borrow Denmark? I figure that with Northern Russia out of the picture your fleet's just sort of...parked there. But if you let me have it I will either build an army in Ber to help out Russia or an army in Kiel to fight France with. I totally understand if you don't want to, though. Anyway, regardless of how you feel about the Denmark issue, I just hatched a plan to potentially help France keep resisting Italy, if you're game:

Tell Italy you've had a change of heart and want to support them into MAO this turn, on the condition that they free it up for you by moving to Portugal next spring. 
If italy agrees, let me know. I'll tell France to put all power into defending Marseilles and Mao. 

The hope is that since last turn *I* was the one who knew Italy's move and this time--as far as Italy knows--only *you'll* know it, Italy won't smell a rat when France is lucky in defending again No way! I wonder if we've been walking past each other in Iribe and without any idea that we're both in the study. And let's bring up Denmark again when I have another build secured. Who knows how long it will take to get into Brest. That's a reasonable plan for Italy. Let me get a sense of where Italy's head is at first. He may not even want MAO anymore. Can you explain the fleet move btw? Honestly because I thought you’d say yes to giving me Denmark.
I doubt we’ve run into each other because I’m in St Louis for the summer Yeah, we should have talked about that  before probably. On its own, the move has a somewhat anti-me connotation. And yeah I definitely have not been to St Louis this summer haha You're going for Bur this season? Sorry to spook you! And not to beat a dead horse, but: you claim you want to secure another build, but with your denmark fleet basically stuck where it is, it’s not like keeping it is going to help you with that goal. That supply center’s doing nothing for you except maintaining the unit bound to it. *I* on the other hand, could help you get what you want by getting another build.

If you have plans to use the denmark fleet, I’ll respect them, because right now our goals are the same. But I see no point in keeping the fleet just for its own sake.

Yep, going for Bur Yeah I mean it's a bargaining chip. Russia has to be in my good graces while I have it. And it's something I could offer you in exchange for something nice. It's not clear to me why you need it right now. Paris has your name on it. You'll win the eventual for Mar with no trouble. Alright, that’s a valid reason.
I was feeling more urgent about it because I think it’s paramount that Russia get some aid against Austria. Yeah that's fair. I think Russia is clever enough to re-instate the stalemate, though. Maybe I'll drop him a line to see what he's thinking. BTW italy plans to literally randomize his move choice. Thanks for letting me know! Nice job on Bur. Let's see if we can get you paris next year! What's your plan for taking MAO? If you want to move Eng-IRI I will support Nth into the Channel? Yeah i was thinking the same actually. Only risk is a bump in IRI i think results in dislodge of the current channel unit. I’m willing to risk it though. France at this point is likely trying to choose who to annoy the most as he goes down. I have a feeling it will be me, even though i’m not the one taking his territories so far. I’ll probably go another year without a build unfortunately Patience, my tea-sipping friend 😛 
But if you dislodge trying to get IRI that means you at least got Nao, and putting the unit in Pic would help you take Brest anyway Oh i’m planning nwg to nth so that i’m still in nth. Do you think the brest fleet may move to Pic? ya know, if you'd just let me have Denmark back you could keep Nth *and* get at least one of Nao/Iri/Brest this year.
I can keep talking to France to see where their head's at, but I think a move to Pic is probably not in the cards. If you were to predict it France'd lose Brest! Are you still on good terms with France? Was the move into Bur expected? It was, actually. France has seen the end coming for a while, but since I was willing to work with them against Italy while you two ghosted, they're more amenable to my invasion that yours or Italy's. Makes sense. Well, let me think about whether Denmark is a possibility (though I’m still very hesitant) and get back to you. And I let me know what France is up to with Brest. Alternatively, why not just leave Nth empty for a turn? 
I'm working on figuring out France as we speak... Cool. And I suppose I could, though it does leave me a little vulnerable. Maybe we could talk a bit about what our collaboration looks like over the next couple of years Well, I can say definitively at this point that France prefers to mess with Italy over you. Basically they don't want to see Italy totally dominate this game. I encouraged this by saying that Italy's going to try for MAO this turn and they should focus on defending that. 

Wrt the next couple years, my idea is this: it's crucial that you take Mao, and that I take Paris. From here, you and I can work on beating Italy out of the Iberian, such that you end up with Portugal, Marseilles, and Spain and I end up with Brest and Paris (though you can have Brest at first). From here we're well positioned to start hitting Italy on their home turf, esp. if Russia can keep hammering away at Austria ...any thoughts on this? That all makes sense. Thought I'm a bit surprised that you'd rather have Brest than Mar. What's the reasoning for that preference? And how long would you let me hold onto Brest? I figured this split would give you land and sea options for attacking italy and not for attacking me. But I was just spitballing, and it may make more sense to divide it your way...And you could hold Brest until we were the only two in all of France and Spain, I suppose have you made a decision yet about what to do about Nth? I prefer to do the same moves as last time. So Nth would be a hold. I don't think MAO is going to IRI or NAO. But you would have the inside scoop. What would you do with Bel if it was freed up? Wait when you say Nth is a hold, do you mean you *don't* want to try for IRI like we talked about, and you're just holding the channel? That’s what i’m thinking now, yes *just holding the channel and convoying to Brest?

And if by "it" in "what would you do with Bel if it was freed up?", you mean Nth, then probably move it to Pic in case France tries to bounce me out of Paris. But it might make more sense for you to just convoy to Pic, in which case Bel could support you into Pic oh nevermind you mean "what would you do with Bel if Bel wasn't supporting Nth"? Well, my answer still applies ...Would you like me to support your army into Pic? That army isn’t leaving the island until france’s fate is sealed. Otherwise I open up my home centers to France. but you did convoy to brest last time? Was that just because you were sure the army would bounce? 

So then basically everyone's holding still except you're poking Nao? Yeah that’s my plan. The convoy was because if it worked, I could just build on the island and be fine. But i’m taking on a risk if i can’t guarantee the build. ohh gotcha. I'm moving Bur-Par, Ruh-Bur. Everyone else is just staying put I really am curious about your relationship with France btw. Italy mentioned that you asked him recently whether collaboration with France was ok. But what could that mean unless it was against me? 🙄 Italy said that you were plotting against me, too! They're just trying to make us suspicious of each other! So you’re saying italy lied to me? I’m gonna make you click that thumbs down if you’re trying to fool me here. Well, no. It's true that I asked Italy about collaborating with France, but only because France wanted us all to be able to talk about its last will and testament together. I didn't bother asking you because you had been pretty clear on ghosting France, but I wasn't sure whether Italy was or not til I asked But it's very possible that Italy took this fact and warped it to make you suspicious of me So, while we're at it, is there anything you might have said to Italy to indicate you were planning to turn on me? Well i’m glad i asked the follow up question. Did italy agree to being part of this discussion? And how did the discussion turn out. Is France going to take out his anger on me with a final stab? Are you going to help him? And yeah i’ve absolutely been talking up anti-german things to italy. I want him to be confident in where i stand so he doesn’t expect a stab. Oh italy said "I don't trust France" and that was the end of it. So no, there didn't end up being a discussion except me telling France that you're gunning for Brest (which was obvious anyway), and that Italy's shooting for Mao this turn (which may or may not be true--but by this time you and I were strategizing and I wanted to keep France out of our way). 
If france *is* planning to stab you, they're intentionally throwing me off the scent. Which would be surprising but not unheard of. So no, I'm not planning to help in a stab I know nothing about. Well, to be clear, another consequence of my and France's conversation was that France is just letting me walk into Paris this turn (unless they're gonna stab me but I doubt it) Yeah i believe that. So i guess it’s just giving italy a hard time then, or maybe some unexpected movement north. Has italy talked to you about attacking me? Post-france? Well yeah. In the same convo where they said you were plotting to stab me they gave some reasons why it's better for me to side with them than with you. So no specifics but Italy clearly wants us against each other. But I don't think either of us stand a chance if we fall for that. *no specific attacks were suggested, I mean Gotcha. Well i think we have to acknowledge that our alliance would be sort of geographically awkward. I think that makes the alliance stronger actually, but we should be honest with each other about an exit that gives each of us a fair shot in the endgame. okay...well, as the person who has ever seen an endgame before, what do *you* suggest? I think we agree to coordinated actions until italy is dealt with. I think you in brest is actually more fair, although less ideal for me. I think we need to pick a victor of the russian-austrian war. Austria is an easier pick because i can take russian dots and austria can help with italy. Alright. But it will be harder to flip Austria against Italy, I think. Nah, i’ve been working on it a bit, and it’s only natural once his current conflict is mitigated somewhat I think between us we should find a split of dots we feel comfortable with. Not that it can’t change in future negotiations. But i think it’s easier to stay friends when the end seems fair from the get-go We don’t have to do this tonight, but soon. Okay, soon. Glad we had this talk 😃 Fwiw i’m a relative first-timer too. I’ve played two or three times in person, and the first time we didn’t finish. I think everyone else plays a lot more. Would be nice to make this an underdog story. Regardless of which way it falls in the end. I think so, too. And Italy is like the over-est of dogs. You lost me haha. The over-est of dogs? like, the opposite of underdog would be overdog. And Italy is the most over-est overdog there is. *the overwolf, perhaps Haha gotcha. Do we think he’s actually the number 1 guy like france said? He denied it to me. But the username lines up. I think it's more probable than not. Although, I also think it's really unfair to have that information leaked when other players get the benefit of a clean slate. That said, just looking at the way Italy moves and talks it's clear that they know what they're doing Yeah he’s definitely a good player. All the better when we take him down. ugh I really wish everyone'd stop using *he* all the time. France and Italy know each other from outside this game, but it irks me that "he" seems to be the default. Out of curiosity, do you/others use "she" when referring to me? I had been using “they”, but then i stopped once i saw other people using gendered pronouns. My rationalization was that the other players must have been confident in their correctness to start using them, but obviously that’s not true. We use “she” for you. France said it to me first i think. Happy to commit to being gender neutral in future negotiations (with all players) I didn’t mean to be directive—it doesn’t matter that much to me, but it makes me feel better if I know people aren’t just doing it mindlessly, and are actually matching it to players they know. I never specified to France that I use “she” but my username is feminine so it was a fair assumption. Yeah that’s totally fair. I will admit I had floated the idea of trying to play feminine and flirt with one of the probably straight male players to gain favor. The username’s a giveaway though. And that might be taking things too far haha. That can’t possibly actually work, can it? The flirting, I mean. This is a serious game for serious-minded individuals 😛 ...”, she writes, before adding a playful emoji at the end. All’s fair in love, war, and diplomacy 😉 Ouch! Still open to collaboration, but we’ve got some trust building to do I wasn't sensing any trust from you, either: you were unwilling to return Denmark or to leave Nth empty, and you're right about our alliance being geographically awkward. 

I want to be a good ally with you, but the difference between you and me is that you get a cozy corner of the map and I'm right in the middle. I need to be able to grow my army to defend all my various borders. So I'm asking for Denmark a little less politely. Well now you've seen me make exactly the moves that I said I would, so hopefully you have some trust in me. I see what you mean about the cozy corner, but coziness has its disadvantages as well. Once somebody gets on the island, it's a really bad time. And I need fleets or convoys of armies to get anywhere off the island. Makes expansion difficult. As far as denmark, the aggression there is fair. But you understand why I'm hesitant to drop down to 4 dots at this point in the game. Fortunately, there's an opportunity to do business here now that you're adjacent to Brest. I'm definitely a bit upset about the support into the channel you gave and all of the lying. You didn't need to lie about your moves to amp up the aggression on denmark: I never asked for a full list of moves. That's true, I was overcompensating because it really seemed like your trust in me was low. Well, it's a vicious cycle. Mistrust breeds mistrust. So how can I trust now that you're not just going to continue working with France on an invasion? Because France is literally about to not exist, for one. And for another, because Italy is planning something that will be bad for both of us. Planning something specific that you know about? Yes. But I was told specifically not to tell you so I need you to not mention it to any other players. I know that's a hard sell coming from me, but I need you to promise. Alright. It’s a promise. Who’s the info from? Doubly confirmed by France and Italy. They've reached an agreement to give Italy the channel. When I confronted Italy about it, Italy said they wouldn't do it if I didn't want them to, but also admitted that they wouldn't have told me about it if I hadn't asked. But France also told me they would reneg on Italy if I asked. So, on the one hand, I could tell italy to call it off and things could proceed some unknown way. On the other, I could get France to reneg, and the three of us could turn this to our advantage. What do you think? It’s certainly possible this is true. Though italy had told me he was actively deceiving France into getting the brest unit to do something unusual So if Italy is truly going for the channel, he went so far as to cover his tracks by warning me he may have suggested something like this to France To what extent has italy communicated plans of an alliance with you? I mean that doesn't seem out of the question for Italy. Italy has told me point blank that if it's a choice between you or me, they'd choose me. I'm sure they've said the same to you. Did he give any reasoning for that choice? Some bull about how I'm an honest communicator. That raised a red flag for me because Italy's too smart to need honesty from me. You're the better strategic choice. 

So, it's entirely possible that Italy fed me this plot through France as some kind of ploy. And even that the two of you are already working closely together to ruin me, although I do hope that's not the case. I agree with all that. I’m just trying to tease out who he’s lying to, as that may provide some advantage. Honestly he’s been more pro-English than anti-German in his communications with me. I think he maybe just doesn’t want me to go tattle to you though. So what moves would you want to see from me this fall? I'll tell Italy the deal is off, then you move Den-Nth, Nth-Eng (supported by Bel), Eng-Bre (supported by Paris). Mao will take Portugal and you'll take Mao? I know you'll have to trust my support in two places, but it's worth it to me to get two builds this turn  without a fuss and keep Italy localized to the south. Did italy tell you MAO would take Portugal? No. I haven't given them my opinion on the channel deal yet. But that would be what I'd suggest they do instead Alright. Would you be able to confirm that this is where MAO would go before I agree to a deal? I just sent Italy a message about it, so I'll see what they say. What has Italy been saying to you lately, by the way? He suggested some defensive tactics to me. Defensives against me? in Denmark? Or France in Iri? Or both? Both. He’s under the impression that we are not friendly after those last moves. I don’t plan to take his suggestion though I'm wondering if these defenses involve you not supporting Eng, which would kind of half-confirm the plot. They do involve me not supporting Eng. Italy said they are busy this weekend (hard for me to imagine people having a life, but it must be so) and won't get back to me til monday. Gotcha. I’m playin dnd this weekend, but i’m not sure that quite counts as having a life). I’ll probably be mostly offline through sunday evening just cause i really need a break from this game Umm the plan doesn't work btw. Gas is just going to cut the Par support that you promised me (this is the only useful thing it can do). So, no deal, unfortunately. I'll see if I can get last minute support in from Italy and let you know. I really don't think an attack from Gascony would be an issue, but I understand that your trust in France is much lower than mine. We could still work together somehow, though? In a tactical sense, anything else from Gascony would be a misfire. So not cutting the Paris support is just giving up Brest. I really don't think France is just going to hand Brest to me. I'm still waiting to see if I can get Italian support, in which case we're back in business. The alternative would be a more defensive move on my part (i really don't want to go down to 4 dots at this phase in the game). Ok. Hope you'll see this before noon. Italy has agreed to support into Bre. I also require Par support for this to go through. Do you agree to provide Par supports channel to Bre and Bel supports Nth to Channel? I will vacate Denmark if so Ok, well if I don't hear from you in the next couple of minutes, I won't assume the support and will play defensive. Sorry I'm trying to get verification from Italy but they're not responding. That's a good default plan I don't think you're going to get verification from Italy. Italy is online and talking to me though. Ok do I have your supports? Yes Deal on! Yep, Denmark going to Nth. got Italy confirmation...hope this goes through drum roll...... Yay! wow an 11th-hour three-power deal (with a decieved france as a fourth) that actually went through as planned! Yeah. And although we had our hiccups, this was really about as good as we could have hoped the takedown to be from the beginning. do you think there's a chance Italy would give you Mao willingly this turn? There's a chance. I'm surprised by the fleet build btw. My plan is to eventually have only fleets along my northwest coast (they're more versatile in that context) and move the armies inland. 

See what you can negotiate with Italy, but no matter what they say, I'd be prepared to use your full strength to get Nao into Mao, if that's what you want to do. (And in case it's not obvious, it's what *I* think you should do) To that end, I can support Eng  and Bre holding. I appreciate the supports. Any idea what trouble France will be trying to cause? I imagine you'll get a request about Bre. France and Italy are probably not working together after last year's stab. But France has asked me if there's anything I want Pic to help with. So depending on your plans I *may* be able to push some help your way. I feel like Italy's 10 units kind of speak for themselves, so even though you and F have had your differences there's a good chance F will want to help you/us as the underdogs Yeah I mean this turn I don't know what Pic does to help me. Anti-Italian moves are MAO as you've described. What are your thoughts on supporting Bre to Gas from Par? This would require a lot of trust from you, but would make supporting into Spa possible in the fall. Does that mean you'd convoy into Bre? Because I can ask France to support that! But it would also mean you don't take a shot at Mao this turn, which is something I'd want to see. In this plan, I leave Bre open. I suppose that's too great a risk with France there? Well, especially if I'm asking for France's help, yeah. But even without revealing the plan, I still think it's a risk. Could you ask france for support into the channel maybe? Or say that you'll support France in? hmmm that could work! Then we only have to trust that Italy won't try and take Brest. Which isn't too far fetched since they *just* helped you take it Hmm, no there's an issue with the retreat if I dislodge MAO. Here's an idea. Tell France you're supporting Pic to Bre. Then just bounce Par in Bre. Elegant. I like it. Italy goes to IRI, but I can defend with the wales army Any thoughts on Russia btw? I imagine Swe is tempting It *is* tempting, but I'm not trying to fight Italy and Russia at the same time. And Russia's been pretty honest with me. So I'll leave it for now. That's fair. Any intel on italy btw? Where do your relations stand? Italy doesn't tell me anything unless they have something to gain from me. I asked if they were going to try and take the channel again and they denied it, but that could be fake news? Take it with French support? Otherwise it wouldn't make sense Well, I suppose I'm comfortable that Italy sees me as a friend on the board. You're right that *if* italy were to try that again, it would take a lot of negotiating to get France's favor. So probably you're right to not be concerned. Alright. I’ll be somewhat not available this evening, so can you confirm moves to make sure we’re on the same page? Paris supports Bre-Gas, Bel supports Eng holding, Ber-Mun, Mun-Bur WAIT NO (sorry I was making pie and lost track of this game): I'm waiting on confirmation from France about Pic-Bre, which I will bounce with Par-Bre making piedmont? And no worries haha I wish peach piedmont Sounds delicious France confirmed the move to Bre so the plan is a-go Ouch again! Care to have a chat? well you weren't exactly truthful either! I think we may need to face the fact that we're just not a good match I suppose you’re not interested in what I have to say then? No I am. Alls i’m saying is that we should both be taking grains of salt with each others’ words Yeah that’s fair. With what i’m about to disclose, regardless of whether you believe it or use the knowledge against me, I would ask that it be confidential from anyone else on the board (including the fact that I’m asking for this confidentiality). I know you’ve sent plenty of lies my way, but if you agree i’d really like it to be the truth this time. I promise not to mention it to anyone else; let’s hear it Ok just to be really specific about it: Can we agree on the story that we ceased communications. You said we’re not a good match and I said “suit yourself” and that was it? And can we also promise to not make the communication obvious without saying it exactly (e.g. “someone told me xyz” when only I could have known). And to be clear i’m agreeing to the confidentiality as well. Okay, sure. But there’s something I want to know (and I’ll keep my agreement now no matter what the answer):
Did you in any way indicate to Italy that you knew/suspected the channel plot last year? No, he revealed the channel plot to me without me asking This was after you told me about it Well that makes no sense, because after I revealed it to you, Italy reiterated to me that they really did not want you to know about it. I think Italy wanted to be the one to tell me so he would keep my trust. I’d have to look to see whether this was revealed before or after Brest went through, but I know at least that before Brest I was confident he wasn’t going for the channel. Well anyway, what did you want to tell me? It stays between us, guaranteed, but I would reserve the right to move according to this information if I think it necessary Yeah that's totally fine. So last night I made a deal with the devil. One that he couldn't refuse. It's a lie that I will uphold it, but I think it's a convincing one. Okay, go on I told italy I would do everything in my power to get him the game. In exchange I asked to 1) be kept alive until the end and 2) get tips from him on how to play the game before my upcoming in-person game. I told him that MY win is about getting the best experience from this game so that I'm prepared for the in-person game (this is kind of true). Since then he's told me some pretty interesting things. I'll send you some quotes. "that thing France said about my past successes: that was true. I do have a lot of experience and I have had a fair amount of success playing online diplomacy. I just did not want you thinking of me that way." "I’ll also note, just cause I have nobody else to talk with about this: I worked REALLY hard on this last move. Germany wanted to take Brest, but if that happened, it would have cut support and prevented your army from leaving your island. So I had to convince Germany to support France to Brest, without telling her the real reason why. And I needed you to go to NAO so that you could not guard Liverpool. There were so many lies!" "To be completely honest, I directed just about everyone else’s moves on that turn! Russia is the one exception, but I basically knew what he was going to do. The best advice I have for someone who wants to get better at Diplomacy: just work hard. You can win by putting in more time and effort than everyone else. I have success by writing a lot to everyone all the time." "I’m not going to lie about my moves to someone unless I am going to get a huge advantage out of it. But I spend most of the game trying to make everyone else on the board feel that I’m their closest ally, so a lot of what I say is a shade on the truth." That's what I got. And if italy continues to talk this way, I might have more to share, and would be happy to share it. Damn that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing!
Did he say why he was so keen to have your army on the mainland? It's so it's not on the homeland. I’m surprised you were willing to do that. Why? Italy promised me Paris. You were going to go to Nth from Bel, and then France was going to retreat to Bel. Oh so italy screwed you! 
He’ll do the same to me when the time comes. 
...would you be willing to give me some warning of when that is, if you’re involved in it? Ya know, just for the fun of sticking it to a master manipulator? I'd obviously prefer something a bit more collaborative than that. Italy will be at 12 SUPPLY CENTERS this fall. I'm not giving up on a mutually beneficial relationship here. Especially given that I may have some inside scoop from Italy for a while. 13 if I help him into Brest. Well look, England, given that Italy or you could be talking crap at any moment, I see taking your supply centers as a more certain path to my survival than having your/his information. If you are actively going to help him take supply centers, then at best you’re surviving at the expense of making an enemy of everyone, because you’d be italy’s dog, not his ally. It’s your choice, though. I've not lied to you once this game. You can check the record with admin after if you're curious. Have I deceived you? Certainly. But I've not made explicit agreement to moves that I didn't follow through with. That includes Denmark (we had discussed strategy, and I said I'd confirm moves in the morning, and then I just never did, which I know was shitty). So I just want to be clear on that. Don’t quibble semantics with me! Deception’s deception and we’re *both* guilty of it. If anything, it makes me trust you less if you think mere technicality gives you the moral high ground here I'm not asking for moral high ground. I'm giving you my knowledge that my deception to you has historically taken the form of truth. If we work on being more explicit with our agreements, I think we can build trust there. And regardless of whether I'm italy's dog, I wouldn't be so sure of getting my supply centers. I can defend everything this year, and I may be able to hold you off next year as well. At that point, Italy's fleets may be in position to push you off the island. What I can't defend is Italy taking Liverpool. You can if you retreat to Edi? At least for this year No I can retreat to Skag if I want. I can bounce Edi from NWG and bounce london from the channel. So you're not saying you *cant* defend liverpool, just that you'd prefer not to. *Now* who's using imprecise language 😛 No I can't. Italy is in MAO. My army is not on the island. He can get there in one move and I can't. NAO* you *can* if you retreat to Edi! or york even Oh wow you're right. That was dumb. Yes I can. York doesn't work because the move is illegal. Can't go around the coast like that. Oh and actually I was right. Edi applies in the same way Cly is in the way. Fleets have to move along the coast. wait, I'm confused. What? The unit displaced from Nth. You haven't given retreat orders yet. Go to Edi? Ohhhhhhh of course A fleet in Edi can't go to Lvp. An army could, but a fleet can't Yeah, you got it. That confused me for a second too. So if you're willing to collaborate, I've got some ideas, and would want to hear yours as well. I genuinely think working with me against Italy will be a better long-term strategy for you than working against Italy or alone. Italy is just too strong already. And, as I've said before, I'd like to see an underdog story. right now my retreat is to Skag, which will not raise any alarms on Italy's end. Is this alright with you or would you like to see something different? working with italy or alone*** for two messages ago updated to Nwy. More friendly to you. Well, that means a lot. 
...I take back what I said about wanting all your dots. I'm waiting for Italy to get back to me about strategy for this turn, and when he does I'll get back to you with what counter plan I can offer. I think this is going to be a turning point where I either commit fully against you or commit fully with you, and it hinges on what Italy is planning. Just know that I'm not going to offer a plan to you unless it's a real one. No contract-law trickery, no outright deceit. And if you don't hear from me, well, it's because we've *both* chosen the devil and our own glorious undoing at his hands Haha, this is fair. Best of luck in negotiations. Regardless of what you choose, I commit to offering you any counter-Italy intel I can gather. Would you be willing to also hear a plan offer from me? I am. And it stays between us, of course. So, broadly speaking, the alliance would involve Austria. And that means moving against Russia. We have a huge advantage going into Russia, which takes pressure off of Austria and allows austria to put pressure on Italy. Alright--haha I was just in a sandbox ordering you to move to sweden anyway 😃 Hmm, you might lose Munich this year though. This has been noted. No specific intel there, just saying tactically it's a possibility. I don't know if italy would go for that. I mean we had discussed someone going to munich before his stab, but I don't know if that can be trusted Well before you and I started chatting Italy denied that he had any plans for munich this season, but his word isn't exactly his bond Yeah, not sure what he'll do there. It may be in his interest to remain neutral. Certainly if he catches any wind of what's going on, Munich is vulnerable. Maybe something to consider in setting up next year We get to choose what happens in Brest, which is great. And then the tricky bit is figuring out how to kick Italy off the island mhm. I was sort of depending on getting a build this turn, such that I'd have someone around to defend Mun. So I would be sacrificing that by working with you. I can convoy Holland to York? Let's get you in Brest then. You'd still have to dissolve somebody, then Go down to 4, sure. But if I go to sweden I stay at 4. I would like your help getting liverpool back if you convoy there, as opposed to having you take it. However, your army will be a little precarious on the island and will need a way off. convoy to yor* the threat of MAO to IRI will be a pain, but I think we can manage. Right--I wouldn't expect to get to take it (liverpool) if you're handing me Brest. 
And if Italy and I "agree" to a plan where he does some supporting from Mao, and he says nothing to you to contradict that plan, would you take that as enough proof that IRI is safe? Yeah, that makes sense. I'll let you know anything I hear from him. He's been quiet this morning. Ok I need to sign off for like a while to get work done. My fall moves under this plan will be Nwy to Swe, NWG to either Edi or Cly, Pic and Eng support Par to Bre, I think the plan I have in the works might be better than yours, so I'll get back to you later! Haha alright. Better for you or better for both of us? Worse for italy, equally good for me, potentially better for you. Alright, I'll be happy to hear it. New confidential italy quote: "I suggest that you take Sweden, and I’m working on getting Belgium this turn too. It’ll be tricky to keep Germany from defending it, but I’m going to try." Did he have anything to say about you retreating to norway instead of skag? He was surprised, but not upset. I said my justification was that it was going to Sweden anyways and that I wanted to warm things up with Germany. Did you hear anything? Italy only just responded to me, so nothing yet. Still nothing from Italy, but if we *were* to have a plan, I think it should be this:

Eng s Bre-Mao, Bre-Mao, Pic-Bre, Par-Gas, Bur s Par-Gas, Nwy-Swe, Nwg-Cly, Nth c Hol-Edi Your promptness in reporting Italy's words to me plays to your advantage: if the next message from italy to me suggests I do something that leaves Belgium vulnerable, I'll pretty much be so revolted that I'll have no choice but to stab him Will continue to send things your way, though I’m not sure how much more i’ll hear. How come you prefer Edi to Bre? Your proposition seems to leave me more vulnerable. Also, thoughts on messaging to France? I’m thinking I’ll ask Italy what he wants me to say, and I’ll say that. I’ll also tell you what I say Ugh I *knew* you'd say that. (The vulnerability thing). Note the plan also leaves Paris wide open. We need to *trust* each other. But it makes more sense for Paris to move to Gascony to put some pressure on or--dare I dream it--take marseilles and the southern holdings. Since France might go poof next near it is better for *me* to be there. And in order to help your ouster from liverpool I needed somebody on the island anyway. You're pretty much equally vulnerable whether they're in york or edi As for French messaging, I'm not really sure. I only just messaged them for the first time this season (they asked me first what I'd like them to do), telling them basically what I've told you (that I stand at the crossroads of either playing Italy's game or fighting back with your help). I'm waiting to hear which they think I should do. If you want to urge them to help our plot, that's your prerogative. France was expressing anti-Italian sentiments to me. Italy told me to respond anti-Italian, so that’s what i’ll do. My thought about Edi is that if you were to go to york and the rest of the plan stays the same, we get another unit to fight with. I could build an army in Edi, for example. Do you feel like you need Edi as collateral? I’m with you all the way on this plan, so i’m willing to be flexible, but I do like to understand what you’re thinking. Same as I was thinking before: I need a build so someone's around to defend Munich. you were willing to part with Brest and let me into york, so I don't see why parting with Edi (temporarily!!) is really all that different Alright. Can we agree on when I get it back? And how confident are you in holding Mun this year? This just in from Italy: "France is ordering Brest to Channel. Germany is ordering Burg S Bel and convoying Holland to Yorkshire....!" And the follow-up: "So here is the move: Norway - Swe, Pic S Channel - Belgium, Mar - Bur to cut support, Gas to Bre to block the Paris move. " Italy's playing us both, you can believe that. He fed me the moves you specified, then turned around and fed them to you. He only gains by playing off both of us. Well, fuck 'em. sorry for swearing. No swearing is fine if it's against Italy. Have you made your decision then? And I'm a little confused about what you mean by sending us both the same moves. I mean he said "here's what I suggest: [the moves you sent me just now]" and I said "okay sure!" because deception is important in this game, i'm told. Then he told you the moves, then you told them to me! 
But because he suggested leaving Bel undefended and you *warned* me about it, I had made up my mind in that moment. Gotcha. So we're both sworn to take down Italy? I certainly am. I also have a bad feeling you'll be losing Mun this turn. Have you talked to Russia about it? I'm going tell Italy I agree to the proposition. Sound good? He's as slimy as spaghetti al'olio and he needs to be knocked down a peg. Plan on!

There's nothing whatsoever I can offer russia right now. So no, I didn't bother talking to them about it. Either it happens or it doesn't, far as I'm concerned And yes please tell Italy you agree to those moves. I love a good surprise. *okay to be clear plan is not on til I hear back from France. But *I'm* on board. Plan is not on, but working together against Italy definitely on? On like beans on an English breakfast plate Ok, I'm going to take your word for it that English breakfast has beans What do you think about Par support Bre to Gas? If I get into Bre, this will leave Gas vacant. The planned Bur support of Par won't go through based on Italy's moves From italy: "Germany is now fishing for info from me about our relationship. Does she know that we are still talking? I’d like to tell her that you’re mad at me and you will tell me nothing, but we must keep our stories straight." All I said was "Do you know anything about what England's planning?" so he has no idea we talk I just wanted to see if he'd be honest with me. Of course he's covering his ass by asking you first. Yeah I believe it. I'm going to respond and say that we shored up discussions this morning (which is what we originally planned the story to be) wait I thought 'shored up' meant 'repaired or fortified'? do you mean like 'shuttered discussions'? Oh you're probably right. I should work on my idioms I mean that you basically said "I don't think we can be good allies", and I was like "But, but.... " and you didn't get back to me lol so I'll make sure not to use the same idiom as you if Italy asks *me* if you and I talk! yep that's the story My reply: "No, but I'd bet she'd assume it. We didn't have much to say to each other this morning. I tried to be friendly but she was kinda straight up about saying that an alliance wasn't going to work out. And I sent a message back but haven't heard anything. So I'd imagine she'd think I'm not just sitting here twiddling my thumbs. Up to you how to spin it though." Oh, and I'm sure he'll spin me something pretty, all right. Yeah, we'll see. And the Bre to Gas move I brought up? (repeating so it doesn't get buried) If we can trust Italy's reported moves, it's the right call. I'd say it's our best option.

...and something that *did* get buried: I'm willing to move out of Edi during the upcoming fall. I'll dissolve my Nth fleet since its only real purpose was stabbing you anyway Perfect. And who gets Lvp next fall? And do you think France will do the move? I'd rather you suggest it so I keep a low profile. I still haven't heard from France. And we already agreed that you take liverpool. Ok great. I didn't remember if we'd explicitly brought it up. I think all of this will work out well if we get France on board. I'm attacking MAO from Channel in preparation for a supported move to Bre (Italy didn't mention the MAO moves, and I'd rather not ask at this point). OMG I thought adjudication was midnight tonight. We've got so much time. I'll be offline for a while (or I should be, cause I need to stop blowing off work). I've ordered:
F ENG - MAO
F NWG - Cly
F Nwy - Swe
A Pic - Bre

But we'll obviously discuss as adjudication approaches/we learn more. New Italy message: "Hmmm, Germany is backing off the bait. I think we will have to change our plan." Well that's not true! But i *did* just disagree to something he wanted me to do in Munich... Hang on this is good: we're gonna see what his real priorities are! He wanted me to cut support from Boh, and I refused. "Not sure yet, but she is not going to leave Belgium unguarded so that won’t work." Okay so he's trying to get you to change your moves regarding Pic and the channel... Yeah. Will be interested to see what he says. Ok signing off for a few hours now. Okay so I'm trying a little experiment: I told Italy that the last message you sent me hinted that if *I* didn't work with you, maybe Italy would. I said that knowing this, I *know* there's more than what he claims going on with the two of you. There's a chance he'll tell *me* some "expected" moves of yours, and between what he tells me and what he tells you, we'll know exactly what he's planning. Or at least get a better sense of it. Nice. Ok italy’s response is consistent with what you said. [sigh] please tell me you didn’t tell him everything. Here's what I said, verbatim (it's long...hope it doesn't break the bot):

But England's desperate. Better to talk with someone than just go in blind. And I doubt they'd turn to Russia or France because neither is really close enough/powerful enough to give real help. And there's precedent for you negotiating with someone even as you stab them: France.

...and here's the real accusation: for all your pretty words about a shared victory between you and me, you've been sneaky and you've always pitted me and England against each other to your benefit. My real fear here is that knowing my moves, and with a desperate, jovial England seeking your advice, it would be so easy to just feed England enough info to keep me weak while you chow down on the Island. 

I know this from experience: back when you were doing 50/50 shots in the south of France, I did everything I could to find out what you were planning and feed it to France. This was merely a time-buying measure, since France was outmatched and I would eventually run out of pretenses to extract your move. But I wanted to gain more dots before you took over. And I assume others are like me, hence I suspect you now. 

I'm offering this confession in hopes that you'll do the same. So just come clean and let's approach this thing as equals? I may have gone a little overboard but all my reasoning and everything I say is factual. So he has no reason to suspect you as long as you insist we don't talk Alright that adds up. Something about getting a message from italy about it right after you sending me that made me a little nervous. I’ve explained that we don’t talk I've confronted him before about deliberately pitting us against each other, so he knows I've always been suspicious of your relationship Gotcha. Ok he said that you were pressing hard for moves, and that he would respond that we’re friendly but haven’t discussed particular moves yeah that's been his line so far. The lying bastard. In fairness he doesn’t know my actual moves haha. Still nothing from France? Nothing from my end Yeah radio silence. France might have a life/better work ethic than any of us. Or maybe just doesn't care about this game anymore. Haha yeah. Well if we hear nothing that may be cause for concern. If i’m not in brest this fall, i’ll have a disband But speaking of work ethic, i am gone until tomorrow (for real this time). Let’s reconvene in the morning Ok sounds good So...Italy really did not take kindly to my confession. I retaliated with “if you don’t trust me, so be it! But i’m not going to just roll over and let you dominate this game”

You can cement italy’s trust of you in the morning by reporting that I’ve approached you with a plan. We can talk about what form that plan should take, or you can just feed Italy anything but the truth. 

France is on board with the stab just fyi. Happy to leave Brest if they’re to be believed, and I think they are. Ok. Where did France say he would go from Bre? Gas. That’s still the plan right? Updates on my end: France asked for my preference on where to go. I told italy this. I asked italy what i should say back. Italy said it shouldn’t matter because he believes france is lying. Yes, Gas is the plan. Well if you tell France anything other than gas I look like a liar I will tell france Gas as well. And it seems like italy is indifferent about what I say, so it shouldn’t raise any eyebrows there. Now what plan would hypothetical you approach me with?? I *don’t* think you should tell italy France’s real move. Is it too late? Gimme a bit to fabricate a good hypothetical plan... Not too late. But then i worry about what to tell France. I suppose if France is a spy we’re doomed anyways. But it would be bad to be found out before the stab. What if i just don’t respond to france? Also, i’m going to ask italy for any update on the state of belgium as if I haven’t received a plan from you yet. And then when we’re ready with the plan i’ll say you messaged me. If france is a spy we’re royally fucked. I’m 95% sure that’s not the case. Please lie to italy I will. Should i reply to france though? Also i think when you have a fake plan, you should type the message up to me like you’re asking for real. That way i have it on hand to send to italy. Okay. Please reply to france. I’m going to sleep I told france. If italy asks what i told france, i will say something different. But I don’t think he’ll ask. Hi England,
I know that the last thing I said to you was that a partnership between us wouldn't work out, but I've had a genuine change of heart. The reason for that is that I think Italy is far more duplicitous than any of us ever realized; right now they may be promising you that you'll take centers of mine, and maybe even that you two will share a victory together. This is my guess because these are the promises they made to me not so long ago. But we both need to face facts: Italy has never hesitated to profit from discord between us, and will always aid the weaker of us at the expense of the stronger. 
If you're tired of being manipulated in a game Italy feels they own, I have a proposal that might get us both destroyed, but at least we'll have stuck up for ourselves and perhaps minorly inconvenienced Italy on their path to victory. This proposal involves France, who is more than willing to use their last few turns to fight back against Italy. Trusting them may be a hard sell, but so is trusting me. If I were really trying to trick you, I wouldn't ask something so unreasonable as that you trust us both. But frankly I consider knocking Italy down a peg to be the sole most urgent thing we can do to keep this game viable for any of us. 
My proposal is: NWG-Cly, Nth convoy Hol-Yor, Eng-IRI or Wal, Bel s Bre-Eng, Pic-Bre, Par-Pic, Bur-Par, Mun-Bur (I figure I'm about to lose Mun anyway, and if that happens I'll disband my Hel fleet)
Next year we'll be well-positioned to boot Italy off the island and the iberian. What do you think? (this part is not for copy-pasting to Italy) I designed this plan to make it look safe for Italy to convoy Gas-Lvp. I know this is what they'd really like to do. I think we need to do everything we can to try and disrupt this. I know it's a riskier move trying to assist Bre into Mao but I think it's the right one. I also think that for *extra* insurance NWG should poke NAO, because worst-case scenario Italy doesn't try the convoy and moves Nao-Lvp and also moves Mao-Nao to bounce. This guarantees Bre makes it into Mao which strengthens our ability to take the southern holdings, and at worst only sets you back a turn in terms of kicking Italy out of Liverpool. In exchange for doing this riskier move, I agree to convoy to york instead of Edi and give up my build. That part of the fake plan is actually true Italy is telling me to expect a bounce in Bre. So that’s not consistent with the convoy idea. Maybe he’s lying? But i haven’t sent the plan yet So all he says is "expect a bounce"? He could think *I'm* going to try and take it from you. And this could be further misdirection about the convoy. Italy can't make a bounce if we attack Mao and Gas at the same time, which the real plan has us doing That’s fair, it could be a bounce we expect from you. Keep in mind that the French fleet disbands in the fall, assuming it leaves Bre. So if it gets into MAO, it will then vacate by spring Better to vacate Mao than Gas, I think. Hmm, i mean if we really think it’s a convoy, disrupting the convoy is a great option. You’re saying i support Bre from channel? And let me see how Italy responds to the message Yes, you'd support Bre from the channel. and Bel will support the channel. I also don’t think hitting NAO makes sense. Then we won’t be able to take Lvp next spring sometimes it's like you don't even read my messages. I acknowledge that. We'd have to wait til fall. I'm making a sacrifice too by convoying to york instead of Edi, and I'm willing to do that because I think it's the right move. Even if there's not a convoy, there's still a chance you fall into Nao which is advantageous. The way I see it we don't stand a chance unless we can take mao and start beating Italy back into the mediterranean You didn’t make it clear that Yor was a real move. I said: "In exchange for doing this riskier move, I agree to convoy to york instead of Edi and give up my build", how can I get clearer than that? Whoops haha. I’m still in bed looking on my phone and it’s a lot of text. I know. Sorry, I get wordy when I'm on the war path It’s quite alright. Do you think it’s worth saying anything to germany? If you’re confident that the convoy is the move, what additional edge do we get by sharing fake info? You mean to Italy? I do think it's worth it, because Italy will realize that I'll turn to you if I'm no longer allied with him. By reporting the plan, you cement Italy's trust in *you*. If you didn't report the plan, Italy'd suspect you. It also gives Italy a false sense of confidence in what I'll do.

Tentative request: after the stab goes through, do I have your permission to send Italy the quotes from Italy that you've sent me? Italy went to *such lengths* to defend himself and make *me* feel guilty for questioning him, and the sheer hypocrisy of it is so revolting. I want to throw his own betrayal back in his face. I figure he's not going to trust you after the stab anyway. furthermore, Italy may respond to my plan by offering *you* moves to counter it, and you can bet that the moves offered will turn to Italy's benefit. We can see if these moves keep you away from Mao and Nao, which will further confirm Italy's got his eyes on the convoy Ok i have to get to campus. Let me send the quote to italy and then i’ll process all this and respond later. Oh and one more thing: as long as we think the convoy is the real move, we also know that Spain is gonna support Mao, unless Italy is really really cocky. So I'll need to support you into Bre with Paris to make sure you get there. This means Burgundy will have to try for Gas unsupported, but again, if we're confident the convoy is the play i'm willing to risk it I've told France the new move is to Mao and France confirmed. So, the moves the plan needs from you are:

Eng s Bre-Mao (Bel will support Eng holding)
Pic-Bre (Paris will support)
Nwy-Swe
Nwg-Nao

Let me know if you take issue with any of these, or if you ever hear back from Italy. 
We have a shot that at least one of these moves will get us somewhere. But I recognize this plan is nowhere near as sure a thing as if you just cooperated with Italy. I want to give you one last chance to back out. Alright I'm online now. Give me a moment to process everything. Ok, all of this looks good to me. Great! Note that you actually gain a build with this plan. So even if the move to Nao doesn't pan out, you can just build an army in Edi and use that to take back lvp Yeah that's what I'm thinking. If we dislodge the convoy, I get two! You really think Italy won't try to snag Por? Entered moves:
F ENG S Bre - MAO
F NWG - NAO
F Nwy - Swe
A Pic - Bre If they're convoying, I would bet not. If they're not convoying, then perhaps, but I think an open Mao is still better than an Italian mao. 

Those moves look good! No word from Italy? From Italy: "Okay, I think that’s the right move. This is the first turn in a while that is fairly unpredictable from my point of view. It would be really great if you wind up with a build." wait, he thinks *what* is the right move? I said I'd agree to your proposal but instead move to London and Edi, expecting one of them to bounce. Brilliant. Let's hope he buys it He definitely trusts me, which is why I think no support from Spa is a possibility. Like if he really trusts me going to london, why wouldn't he go for it? Also, I'm really hoping you won't lose Mun. That would cause some problems. Can you copy in your set of moves just so I can see the summary? If there's any you want to strike from the record out of paranoia, I totally understand. Full record:
F Bel S ENG

A Bur - Gas

F HEL - Kie

A Hol - Yor

A Mun - Tyr

F NTH C Hol - Yor

A Par S Pic - Bre Cool. I guess the support in Bel is only relevant if MAO surprises with supporting Bre in or something like that right and I have a weird bias for having my units *do* something other than hold. I also wanted to talk post-war relations since you brought that up. My ideal would be total silence to Italy from both of us. As tempting as it is to gloat, Italy will use any gloating we do to convince others on the board that we're schemers, unreliable, sharing intel at an absurd level etc. We also should start courting Austria once the moves go through post-stab relations* we can try to court Austria, but should do so with extreme trepidation lest anything get shared with Italy Yeah no sharing of specific moves with Austria, at least not at the beginning. But the alliance is natural since I'm moving against Russia and we're both moving against italy. And we really want it to be a solid 3 on 2. Nicely done. Thoughts on the silence to italy idea? Also, austria just took a beating Accurate. We should sent condolences their way. And I won't speak to Italy Ok. I won't either. He's going to be sending some nasty-grams our way I'm sure. yeah if you get a juicy one send it to me! ugh I'm kicking myself I wish i'd supported Bur-Gas. But hindsight's 20/20 So maybe try to cool it with Russia...I'm thinking we're gonna need to go 4 on one if we want a shot at stopping him Yeah i’ll try to be amicable with russia. I feel like you’ll have more sway since you didn’t just take his territory Italy just said “well played” Well he's correct about that And I'm trying to make overtures to Russia and Austria right now Haha yeah. I agree that taking down Italy will be tough even if he’s operating mostly alone. Italy to me: "Well, this game just got less fun" Haha. Still figuring out what builds will be. Trying to piece together a plan to get you a build from Italy this year, but it looks like that may be a challenge. We'll have to make a couple of good guesses. I think your builds are pretty obvious, right? Fleet in Lvp, army in Edi? 
In spring, I'll support Edi into Lvp. Meanwhile Lvp moves IRI with support from the channel and Nwg pokes Nao. With your permission, I'll move Nth-Edi and then Edi-Cly in the fall. This way we can shove Italy out of Nao come next spring. I agree with the builds, and I'll review the tactics. We really need an italian disband this year to break the line. With what you've presented we won't get Spa or Mar, and by next spring we may have Italy in Lyo and Wes. Not sure if we have a better option on our end, but I'll keep thinking. Right I don't think there's much we can do about the south besides get one of us in gascony and put a fleet in Brest and hope for the best. Nevermind: it's better I think to risk Italy in Nwg, since that's actually not a huge threat. Nwg should go to Edi and Nth should go to Lon. Dammit, we'd be in such a better position if I hadn't been so paranoid that Russia would move to Munich! Then I'd have kept my fleet in Hel Was just running through some tactics. I think I found an issue, but I want to check with you. Suppose Italy ends up with Fleet in Portugal, army in spain, fleet in lyo, fleet in wes, army mar. I think this is a stalemate line. And I don't think we can do anything to stop Italy from forming it. I mean you could mess with North Africa from MAO I guess. But at that point we're looking at Tunis as the next build on our front. And that only works if neither NAO nor IRI gets behind the line. Fingers crossed you can find a flaw in my thinking. I guess the point is that no amount of cleverness is going to get us those dots until we see disbands (if my thinking is correct, of course) I think you’re right—if dots is what you’re after, you’re better off stabbing me and Russia than collaborating. But I think you’ll that just getting italy under control takes priority. Russia and Austria might see some dots, but if we do it’ll take a lot longer I agree i could stab russia with moves on st p or something. I’m not in great tactical position to stab you right now if i wanted to. No question that italy’s the target. But we’ll be dancing with those fleets until they’re off the board from a loss of supply centers. That changes my thinking about our moves a bit. I know for a fact we can disband at least one of the fleets. I ran quite a few sandboxes in lieu of working today and I'll share moves in the morning. Yeah if you found one, that’s great. Let me know woah, all armies from italy. I guess I was seeing things through the lens of the worst he could do to us. Given that the beta test ends in 1909, what are your goals? Just duke it out until then? was not aware of that! But yeah, I'll just go down fighting Italy like hopefully everyone else. That's pretty disappointing this game was just getting good Yeah admin said this in the general thread a while back. I agree it’s a bit of a shame to see it cut short. But i suppose we’re just the beta testers. I will be glad to be finished though. It was fun, but like WAY too much distraction and stress haha. Would you play online again after all this? I’m not sure I would. I think I would! you're right that it's way too much distraction but, hey, it keeps me off the streets Hmm something tells me that you wouldn’t otherwise be out committing violent crimes haha. But then again how well do i really know you from playing a lying game. I will say I’d be down to do an in-person one with CS students at some point. Btw all other powers (me included) will be setting for a 5-way draw this move. I had been thinking the same thing! Do you know anyone besides me and admin at UMD who plays?

Uh huh...sureee they will AFAIK there's no drawback to submitting the draw order (if you're ok with the outcome). If there's not consensus, play just continues as normal. Well I think admin' adviser has played. I know [redacted] had expressed interest in playing. Not sure about students though. And I'm sure I could recruit a couple of non-UMD friends to play. I'm on board with the five-way draw, by the way. 

And I think there's a couple board game enthusiasts in my lab who may not have played this particular game before but would probably like it...if you don't mind playing with new people Yeah always down to play with new folks. And I’m down for the draw as well Reply all to Italy's message: First, if you didn't get a message from Italy claiming to have been sent to the whole board, please let me know. I'm down for the draw that he has proposed. I'd also like to add that I'll be checking the "Adjudicate once all powers have issued orders" box. If everyone does this maybe we don't have to wait until Sunday night to have this resolved! I'm not so confident as to issue a hold for all of my units, but will be submitting for the 5-way draw. Really enjoyed playing with you all, but I'm exhausted and ready to finish and see the stats. :’( we were supposed to hug it out!! Any idea who wasn’t on board? Sorry for not coordinating moves. I really thought the game was gonna be over So did I! And I have no clue who wasn't on board I guess we try the draw again?? I suppose it’s possible a game could be set up to not support the regular draw settings. I dunno. Not sure your interest level in the game at this point, but we should at least make sure italy doesn’t win right? can italy take five centers this turn?? Nah, but maybe admin will be like “oh btw let’s go until 1914 now!”. Any guesses on who is holding out on the draw? who keeps screwing with the draw though! Do you think Italy suggested it just to mess with all of us? oh haha we just asked the same thing That’s my best guess. He’s kind of the only one with the incentive to keep it going. And with his winning track record, probably the only one who cares enough to be this sneaky well I'm honestly not invested enough to care if that happens anyway I’m not very invested either, but i’d rather not see italy win, especially if this is how he did it well let me know if there's anything you want me to do, then Ok, will do. We’ve got a day before the next move I think Ok would you be up for: Paris support Brest Hold, and then get one of your fleets into the channel? And then don't go to Nth as I'll be moving Nth to NWG and Denmark to Nth to make sure he can't break through in the north? Yor holds? Pic support Brest hold as well would guarantee that he can't take it from the channel. Pic needs to support paris but other than that Ok Pic can't, since it's a fleet. I'm supporting paris from brest oh right---ok thanks And actually can Yor support Wales? Yep! Great! Glad we're doing this since I think otherwise italy has a serious shot at 18 by the end of 1910. Wait I'm actually doing our moves wrong if we want to hold paris. I need to attack Gas from Bre. Otherwise, Eng cuts Bre support, Gas supports Bur to Par. So I'm going to do that instead. I'm doing my moves wrong* Par to Gas is a good move paired with that. Cuts support for either the Bre or Par attack from Italy, and the armies will bounce right back to where they came from. Up to you though. Looks like it all worked. A little surprised about the supported move into brest. Do you want it? Looking at the board a bit more, we'll have to be clever to keep Italy from any more centers on our side of the board. I think the following will do it: Bre and Par to Gas, Ruh to Bur, channel to MAO, NTH to NWG. We can ask russia to attack Tyr to cut support (Tri is going to fall anyways). I can hold the island as long as Yor doesn't attack me. The Brest support was just in case Italy moves Gas into Brest supported by Eng. I should have realized that with Lon moving to Eng that move would not have gone through anyway, but I'm not paying as much attention to this game anymore. And okay your plan seems to make sense but I'll check... Cool, sounds good. okay submitted those moves I'm doing same moves as last time, except for supporting Wales to IRI