Bonjour! Let's talk about the English channel! Sure! What are your thoughts on it? I'd like to leave it unoccupied. A fight early on is bad for both of us. Makes sense. I agree, a DMZ is good for us both. I know that getting armies off of the island is pretty important for you. Depending on how it plays out we could talk about Belgium. Any thoughts on your other neighbors Germany and Russia? Cool, I'd like to then agree now to a DMZ in the channel through the end of 1902, and we can re-discuss that year about future plans. Are you on board? If so, will your fleet go to MAO?

Haven't heard from Germany yet. I've been honest with Russia about going north, and Russia has expressed some concerns. Doesn't want me to bring my army to Nwy. So, Belgium may be a home I'm interested in if that's on the table. Wow Germany threatens war with me in the first message haha Yes, and yes. I will open to MAO. If Russia is adamantly against you putting an army in Norway, it might be worth it to not antagonize him provided that Russia and Germany are not working together. Belgium is definitely on the table Interesting haha, that is unusual Yeah, something tells me that player may be a little unpredictable. Sounds good on the agreement.

For Belgium, is there something you would want from me for you to give that up? Are you saying you may consider supporting me in? I don't think Germany will be thrilled about me being there. Yes, depending on how the spring plays out I may be in a position to support you into Belgium. I don't think it would be conditional on something you do, but rather if it makes sense given the positions in the Fall. Maybe building an army in London rather than a fleet, which likely compliments your goals anyway given the channel DMZ. I think you are right in that Germany would not want to see you in Belgium. If it will antagonize him anyway, it might make sense for us to launch a full out assault in the Fall (this would probably look like bouncing Holland to weaken the German position). All of that makes sense. Let's revisit before the fall orders then. I wouldn't be totally opposed to the idea of an attack on Germany, especially if he's not willing to engage in any meaningful discussion. FYI Germany has indicated he is taking his fleet to Holland in the Spring. Thanks for the heads up! That is an interesting choice, I think it may indicate a Russia/Germany agreement of some kind as it means Russia will be getting Sweden. Yeah, you may be right. Have you heard from Germany at all? Or Russia? I have, but nothing much. Seems like they are withholding information from me. Yeah I'm not getting much from them either. In a remote game it's hard to tell if people are being quiet on purpose or just not making themselves available on the chat. (This is my first time playing remote, so a bit of a different experience for me). Yeah, that is definitely one of the downsides of online diplomacy. By the way, we're still good with the channel, right? I know you must be anxious if Germany and Russia are not talking to you much, but I have to stress that this is not because I am working with them, and I am not moving to the channel. I am not going to the channel. We've agreed to keep out at least through the end of 1902, and I plan to uphold this. However, that message did make me a little nervous about your plans. Breaking an explicit agreement like that is cause for war in my book. That wasn't my intention at all and I am very glad that we are on the same page. Sorry if it came across like I don't trust you: I trust you which is why I hoped to bring up any potential worries before they happen. I could have worded it better 😅 . No worries. I did click the thumbs up on your message haha. Just wanted to be clear about the consequences of a stab. 👍 Glad to see our commitment upheld. Seems like you may have your sights set on Belgium. Likewise! The rest of the map has been interesting. What's your read on the map? For me, I think that a supported attack on Belgium is likely the move given the spring turn. My read: Germany gets a pretty good start, facing only a bit of aggression from you.. Austria and Turkey are likely agreed to stand strong against Russia. However, I think there's a chance that Turkey is sort of overselling their "opposition" to Russia moving to Arm. There may be a juggernaut alliance in the works. Probably no real conflict between Austria and Italy. Maybe they'll bounce in Trieste. Austria has a pretty good start if he can secure Greece. Do you plan to take Belgium from Pic or Bur? This is all true. I think I will likely be taking it from Picardy, but I'm not sure yet. And here I thought Belgium was on the table. I guess it's already on your plate then? What's to stop me from working with the Germans to keep you out? Belgium IS on the table. But I didn't expect these spring moves, and with the way the map looks, I think you need to convince me that it would be worth it for me to be on 4 with you on 5. Totally different discussion if Italy is in Tyrolia, or if Germany bounced me out of Burgundy I'm looking at it from your point of view too, I think you have options other than Belgium, right? You could take Denmark for example. I can't take Denmark by force, and Germany isn't keen on letting me have it. The way I see it you'll easily take Portugal next year (assuming you go Spain s.c. with your fleet). And that line on Pic-Bur-Mar (assuming you build there) would make you really strong. Meanwhile I'm struggling to find a fifth supply center next year. Russia probably helps out germany with Denmark. So I'm looking at St. Petersburg at that point? What can you offer to balance this out if I let you in? I've had some time to think about it since the bot was down, and you are right about concerns over fairness. At the end of the day, the plan doesn't matter unless you are on board with it. If you are going to demand Belgium I'd rather support you in than bounce with you. If you can forgo Belgium this turn, we do have an opportunity to put you into Holland and/or Denmark next year, and that will quickly snowball into Scandinavia, Kiel, etc. You're suggesting I get a fleet in NTH and HEL? I think that's the only way to make that work. I would want no fleet built in Bre and our DMZ extended through at least the end of 1903. And probably one other country on board with the takedown. If we're stabbing Germany we should make sure she's taken out swiftly. I think that's the best way to do it, yeah. I agree to no fleet build in Brest and an extension to our DMZ to the end of 1903. The one thing I cannot guarantee is another country involved in the take down, but the best suspects would likely be Russia followed by Italy. Yeah, I was thinking Russia. This may be something to talk about next year, as we're running out of time here. Cool. I am happy to broach the subject when we are ready to. Especially if this turn goes well, he may be more inclined to help next year. Hmm what if germany bumps me in Nth or HEL? I was thinking this, and if you supported yourself into the North Sea through Norway you would just have to worry about being bounced out of Hel, which I think would be highly unlikely unless the plan is leaked. But the other option that is perhaps safer would be to move to Skaggerak, which Germany can't bounce I really don't think it's that unlikely. That Holland fleet has two places to go, and I expect it to move. Assuming a build in Kiel, Germany can bounce in Holland to block your entry. Also, I was planning to bring an army to Norway, so I wouldn't have the support to the North sea. This is too big a risk for me. My preferred move is to Belgium. I understand this may warrant doing a couple of favors for your next year in return. But I just feel too exposed otherwise. I'm about to head out for the evening and I have my move set for Belgium. I'm hoping for your support into there, but I understand if you can't provide it. Ok. What unit is moving to Belgium? The fleet Ok. And do you know what Germany will do with Holland this turn? Interesting Yeah, i actually botched my move because i forgot to click submit in the browser :/. Not that it would have made a difference. Hope you’re enjoying Belgium. I didn't expect to get Belgium. I incorrectly inferred from all the information I had that Germany would support you into Belgium and tap Burgundy, so in order to not lose the support I decided to make Burgundy the mover. I mean. If anything, you are in a better position for not having moved there. I'm surprised it was a misorder. You've successfully put Germany and I into conflict and can pick off the remains. Another note. I would have put you into Belgium without hesitation if it was an army OR if I knew that Germany was not planning to support you in with Holland. Yeah i’m not really buying that i’m the big winner here, so you can save your breath. If you want an ally against germany, I’d like to start hearing some ideas about what that relationship looks like. Not saying you are the big winner, I'm saying that your misorder was probably a good thing. Before we get into the details of an alliance against Germany, I think it's worth noting that the AI alliance is going to absolutely roll over Russia/Turkey, and so if you take Russia's dots that are easy to take, I think it will be helping Germany/Austria/Italy more than it helps you. I really think that we should get Russia on board, and it should be super easy to do. Just say that as long as Sweden helps you take Denmark, you won't take StP or Sweden for the time being. We could even put Russia into Denmark. I dunno if we actually have so much to work together on. If you build fleets and attack the coast, I'll be distracting all his armies. I need to devote all my resources to containing Germany's armies anyway. I think you guarantee Denmark next turn if we're clever about it. If Germany builds Fleet Kiel, we can support a convoy into Holland. But I think he'll be building armies- that's just intuition, I haven't been able to reach Germany and he's hard to talk to. Long term I think this looks like a Russia holding off Austria/Italy with Turkey being lepantoed, and then if we hit Germany hard with Russian help then we have a good shot of making it to the midgame and preventing AI from 2-way the board. Ok I'll respond over a few messages so I don't kill the bot. I agree Russia and Turkey are in trouble, but I think Russia is more vulnerable. I actually think it's possible that Turkey and Austria are friendly. Maybe the lepanto will be set up but won't come to fruition. If I were to add more pressure in the North, I think it's a really bad time for Russia overall. This gives me some leverage in negotiating with Russia. I agree on our limited opportunities for direct collaboration next year. However, I'd like to hear what your builds are going to be. A fleet in Brest would make me worried about you and Germany collaborating on an invasion. How is denmark a guarantee when Germany can support from Kiel? Ok I think that's all of my messages for now. It's possible, but I think Austria and Turkey are not friendly given the fact that Austria did not move Serbia to Rumania and Turkey tried to support that move. Russia is definitely still in trouble, though the target might be Turkey first. I have to build armies, no fleet in Brest. Denmark is a guarantee if you can get a fleet into Skaggerak and have Russia support you in. It then becomes a 3V2 You could even do a clever tactic with Russia moving to Baltic, you moving to Sweden, and Skaggerak/north sea. Then it is a 4V2 Ok so guarantee based on Russian collaboration. So you don't think Russia and Germany are friends anymore? I suppose they don't have many favors to offer one another Yeah I think that they are not working together but are simply coexisting I'm building a fleet in London. I hope that doesn't raise any alarms on your end. But if you were to build a fleet in Bre against your promise, any other build would leave me in bad shape. I know I'm being paranoid, but I'm more comfortable with that build Ok. I don't get why you think I'd build F Brest, but at the very least I appreciate the heads up. At some point I'd like to see you make a decisive move. So far it seems like you've been trying to make moves that both Germany and I agree to. You could break  DMZ in the channel and coordinate an invasion with Germany after building a fleet in Brest. By building in London I can do everything I might like to do eastward, and also i could respond better to a worst-case scenario. And what would have been my decisive move so far? A bump in Denmark? You were going to support me into Belgium so why would I have done that? Sometimes the less options you have the better off you are. A lot of diplomacy is signalling. I mean, my thinking process last turn was wondering why you didn't go to Denmark. My conclusion was that Germany was probably supporting you to Belgium. I'm just telling you the vibes I'm getting from you Germany "was" supporting me to Belgium and then didn't follow through That's really interesting haha Yeah so here I was thinking I had it in the bag. And then I first realized I flubbed my move and felt like an idiot. And then I looked closer and felt like an accidental genius. So back to signaling. You backed out of your, admittedly, vague and implied agreement to support me. What signal does that send to me? Are you saying that you're coming for me? That I can't totally trust you? Meanwhile, I've been totally honest with you for the sake of building trust and a good alliance. And you're going to complain about MY duplicity? So, I know this is a touchy subject, so I want to approach this delicately, but to be fair I was still deciding whether I would support you or not when you logged out for the night. I don't want to devolve this into "what about when you did this thing that wasn't the best signal," but one of the things for me was considering why you weren't willing to move to Denmark. Sure, you want Belgium, but what does that mean for me when you want to put a fleet in Belgium and not an army? What is the follow-up play? I am not complaining about your duplicity. I'm complaining that we're missing opportunities to make strong progress because I think you aren't committed to working with me, but you aren't committed to working with Germany either. I think you would agree that had you worked with only Germany from the start, or worked with only me from the start, you'd be in a much better position, yeah? Yeah, that's all fair. The timing thing makes remote play kind of weird when there's a lapse in communication before an important move. We didn't really have a chance to talk about the fleet vs army there. But I don't get why you don't think I've been working with you. You proposed two possibilities: Belgium or Holland/Denmark in 1902. I expressed my preference after raising some concerns about Germany's ability to counter Holland/Denmark. You agreed to help me to Belgium. If you think commitment to a sole country is a good strategy, why haven't you followed it? Would you agree that I've been more committed to working with you than you have with me? That's pretty clear from your moves last turn. All great points- and I agree with you on a lot of this. I was very willing to support you to Belgium, but I should have made it more clear that it needed to be an army. I do believe commitment is a good strategy, which is what led me to some admittedly anti-German opening moves. I'm not saying you have not shown commitment, after all we have an excellent DMZ in the channel, but it does bug me a bit that I cannot identify something you have done to antagonize Germany. Well what would you like me to do to show this antagonism next year? Make the goal to secure denmark? Yes- I would very much love to see that. And the best part is that you get to see my super friendly builds before you decide on anything. Alright, this sounds good. Let's reconvene after builds then? That's Monday at noon right? It's probably time for me to get back to real life here haha. Sounds great, me too haha. Thoughts on builds? Yours were indeed friendly, which I appreciate. Germany's were what I expected. I thought Russia might have build in St. P, but I guess there's enough going on in the south to warrant the Warsaw build. The italian naples fleet is consistent with the lepanto, but then again what's the alternative build? Army in Rome? Also, I wonder if Austria-Italy are eyeing Munich this year. I have similar thoughts. I think that Russia and Turkey are both in a weak spot and all the evidence so far points towards them getting involved in a long and drawn out conflict. I'm sure Russia would have loved to build St Petersburg but couldn't afford to. Now, he is pretty much completely under your good graces. Austria and Italy may very well team up to take Munich. Germany's builds have come out to be very anti-French, so I am sure you are happy about those as well. It comes at the cost of cutting down the amount of options he has significantly. What do you think Germany might order? Trying to get a sense of the german plan now. I feel like germany has to play defense, unless they did something like Mun to Ruh to support into Bel or Bur to Gas to put pressure on Bre in the fall. Yeah, I do to. I was thinking that my best play might be to ignore Burgundy and hope it holds and instead go for something annoying like Holland or Ruhr, which would leave him to either withdraw to defend or leave himself prone in the North. Of course, it could backfire if he's thinking the same thing and ends up in Gascony. I'm trying to reason through how that plays out. Suppose germany supports Bur to Ruh with Bel. Then you can't penetrate right? Yes, if he moves Bur to Ruhr with support I can't get in. But it would also mean he's out of Burgundy, which is good for me and means if I retake Burgundy that I can start applying pressure to Ruhr and Munich If he moves Kiel to ruhr, he leaves all sorts of things completely exposed like Denmark. And if he leaves Munich he leaves that open as well Yeah, germany is in a tough spot. Any word from Italy in all this? I'm guessing the lepanto is the focus, but a move to either Pie or Tyr would be kind of taking a side. True. He said he was thinking about it, but not sure how much I can trust that. He'd certainly want to obscure moving to Piedmont if that is his plan. I know channel is tempting. If you think it might work, I'd totally support you to Holland, or I can tap Holland to make sure it can't leave by going to Helgoland without losing it. Moving to Helgoland or Skaggerak yourself can also be a strong play, especially if Germany thinks you are on his side. A move to skagg can be explained as a move on Russia and a move to Helgoland is deadly if it succeeds Pinging you since deadline is approaching whatever you decide, Don't break our DMZ in the channel. It's not worth it, I guarantee you that The DMZ stands. I'd like confirmation from you that it stays through the end of 1903. Confirmed. Hopefully that got to you on time 😬 Yeah, I'm here. I'm moving to Nth and Hel, holding in the others. I'd like one of Holland or Denmark this year. Both would be nice but maybe not feasible. Let's see Germany's Spring moves and restrategize. Sounds great! I will go to Ruhr then to apply some pressure there. Hopefully I'll make the right guesses when it comes to what Germany will do with burgundy. I believe that we can get you Denmark or Holland but it may require some clever manuevering in the fall. Are you self-bouncing in Gas to prevent the move there? That's a great option. I might change my moves to that actually. I have something more risky in mind at the moment though Nice, that worked out really well actually. Well done on taking the Helgoland Blight! That was a great call, and it means we can guarantee Holland for you next turn. Burgundy might retreat to Marseilles which is annoying, but manageable.  Or it could retreat to Munich. Very interesting that Russia made an aggressive move towards you. Nah, that was planned. Russia's trying to keep good graces with germany before helping me to denmark in the fall. I can't do this if I'm going for Holland though. I'm a little surprised austria and italy are totally staying out the fight. I guess they're really going for turkey. Even better! If Russia is helping you with Denmark I can apply some pressure on Ruhr, and cracking that key position means that on the next turn we start threatening home centers like Kiel and will be in excellent shape to tackle Holland on the next year. Depends how much you trust Russia- seems like he's been radio silent for me, but then again we don't have a lot to talk about. Yeah the moves in the east are pretty crazy actually. They are going hard against Turkey, and Russia made some excellent moves it looks like so Turkey is in a very tough spot. Agreed we're in good shape. Though I imagine after these moves germany will make a hard play for russian support. If I can indeed trust russia, I'll convoy an army from Norway to Denmark and cut support from Kiel with HEL. I wonder if there's anything to offer Russia to sweeten the deal? Great points. I think Russia may plan to further develop in the south, especially if he and Italy work something out against Austria, or if Austria and he work something out against Italy. If that's the case, he may just want the peace of mind that you are not going to attack him for a while. Otherwise, probably a German dot if he plans to play in the north. Looking back at the map, probably Berlin would be the best bet for a dot offer since Russia could take that with an army (after traveling to Prussia/Silesia from Warsaw) or with the fleet in Sweden (by traveling to the Baltic first). Yeah that's what I was thinking. Russia seems fine to support without it. Poor germany. She said she's a first-timer. Indeed. Though, I remember the people who I played with in my first few games were more than happy to introduce me to the game with some brutal stabs 😂 Nice, that went well Sorry for the late notice. Just a heads up that I plan to build a fleet in Brest but will park it in the MAO as a deterrent to Italy Can you explain why you didn’t build it in Mar? Yeah, sure. I couldn't build it in Marseilles because there would be very little I could tell Italy to persuade him that I wasn't planning to attack him with that build, even though that isn't my intention. What's the plan on the German front? Maybe we can get creative with the moves in a way that gets both of us at least one dot. I'm not holding myy breath on Ruhr, so I think the best play might be to send Belgium to Holland with support from the north sea while Denmark hits Kiel with support from Helgoland. If Germany makes similar moves to her last turn, we would pop both Kiel and Holland and would guarantee Munich/Berlin for next year. If Germany supports Kiel instead of moving to Ruhr, then we would guarantee Kiel in the fall as I'd walk into Ruhr and we would have Ruhr, Holland, Helgoland, and Denmark for a 4V3. Interesting to see you in the English Channel. So... You want to leave the channel? I can leave you alone so that you can do that. Not sure where all of this is coming from honesty. I know you feel bad for Germany since it's her first game, but for all you know she could just be lying about that for an advantage. If that's why you aren't talking to me, then I'd ask that you consider playing the board and not who you think everyone is. Based on the [redacted] profile, this is her second game on Backstabbr. Her moves have been tactically excellent. Test Given that you are still submitting orders, it seems like you are reading my messages and choosing not to respond? Give me a reason to defend myself against Italy. As it stands, I'm just going to let him solo. Look. I will defend myself against Italy. But I need to know that I will be in the draw. If you and Germany are just going to fuck me from behind, then there is no incentive for me to defend myself against Italy. I know you are upset with me. We can fix this, but I need to know why. Italy is the highest ranked online player on playdiplomacy.com. They will solo if we don't stop them now. Once Italy marches through France they are just going to continue onwards and attack you and your friend Germany. Whatever Italy/Austria told you about me and what I've said is a lie. You're being stringed along and they will kill you as soon as they kill me. Their entire goal is to get us to fight. That's why Italy keeps trying to get me to go to the North Atlantic Ocean and why they constantly told me to take English Channel, which I ignored. Why do you want to kill me so badly? Whatever I did, I'm sorry. I can stop Italy this turn by the way. It's pretty easy since Italy let me into Marseilles, I can support the hold in Marseilles and Marseilles can support MAO to Spain SC. It's impossible to breach, I've checked it, and I can keep making those orders for years and years. You stabbed me in Spring 03. It is Fall 05. I think that you, Italy, and Germany are highly underestimating my ability to survive against your onslaught. You sure this is the game you want? Slowly whittling away at me until I die? Instead, I propose that we let you into the Mid Atlantic Ocean and that you help me defend Italy. I can send you past the MAO into West Med, where you can start taking dots like Tunis or Naples. We wait until AI crumbles, and you have an excellent game where you top the board. Hey. Want to talk? Old friend! Sure, why not? Awesome. I'm reaching out because we're entering the late game and I think Italy is making a push to solo. I think it may be time to take Sweden/St Petersburg and get Austria to turn on Italy I'm just one unit so I can't do much unfortunately, and likely will be soon eliminated. Maybe you can still turn the tides? I wonder how you feel about Italy after this last turn. Yeah it was a pretty brutal stab from italy. Would be happy to see him go down. Do you have thoughts on your remaining unit? I would be happy to use it however it would help Assuming that you and Germany are getting back together again My ask would be to attack Gas