union with the divine


peace and bliss


i think for me this it feels very natural so the and i yeah i got feedback as well that that that people when when i feel this this inner radiation so when i feel this this energy of this love inside that people notice that around me as well so feedback that they see and feel that so and this is a reason as well why i would like to go to feel more of that because i want to work as well more with as part of my job with patients and clients where it s important to connect to them


cannot imagine ever being able to believe that there is such a thing as agency with what you were saying i imagine you feel the same way when youre in location four


because were talking talking about earlier about this peripheral and can be like a big peripheral sometimes where its where its a sense of almost like world mind body like a whole or universe mind body


she basically just meditated all the time


what you what youre describing by stepping back may be placing more attention on the layer two qualities that are also in your experience or it might be some shift in terms of where your sense of self is centered


it sounds to me more like youve got some space youve got some distance from thoughts and emotions and


location one of layer two


so again its a sense of its a sense of wellbeing in a way and it feels kind of blissful in a way like just comfortable sense of fullness and energy and this kind of sense of in appreciation tenderness that hard to really put a put words to it


no panpsychist sense


but if not like the usual like in my daily life its more like layer one


nonduality pointers


no divinity


this thing is almost analogous to effective prayer when used in temporary ways and so its not even a situation necessarily where one would have to go to stay there for six months or some period of time it can its i think its very i think its probably what most people are referring to as effective really hyper effective prayer you know people that get people that really get to an experience like i think my mom is probably there for instance she really believes that like her prayers are always answered and occasionally one doesnt come true and it kind of freaks her out like you know maybe her relationship with god is having some issues or something like that right


emptiness or spaciousness


and so the more you experience that in the context of layer two just as you go throughout your life the more you know youre sort of communicating you know lets drive the car half on the curb half on the road kind of thing and so as you go through your day to day life its probably going to remain fairly well rooted in location and location to layer two with that sort of additional stillness being accessible that you can put your attention on


so the relocation to layer three um it would feel like that presence is pervading everything and you are it or you are a part of it youre inseparable from it um it is what you are essentially um will be a nondual experience of the divine


so in layer two i dont have any positive nor negative emotion is like very neutral


all pervading presence


emptiness


is there still the fullness and are you still the fullness


union


what about a sense of being in union with something either the divine or you know like an all conscious presence of sorts but not being one with it not being it right yeah but being you know sort of increasingly merging in with it


so it sounds like at some point in your process of deepening youve actually shifted to location two


agency they reported that they did not feel


and the messages that people stand to share all connect to what youre experiencing maybe in an inchoate way so that that kind of because thats a transpersonal connection and that seems to me to be related to layer two and layer three or im sorry location three


you can get out of it and then you can move on to to the location three stuff and if you feel you know youre done with it you know after a few days or youve got enough access to it that if conditioning arises you can you know sink into it and use it to whatever extent you want to then you know move on whenever you want to


its very different than layer four location four layer four type of stuff which is more freedom


nondual


sense of fullness and presence


but there can be a sense of that also without the medicine like this is my this is my universe view so this is my universe view and there are a whole lot of other universe views that im overlapping with so i feel a bit like a venn diagram where were creating some sort of joint reality the there can be a kind of a sense like that so i dont know whether thats more location to layer to sorry


finders typically notice that they are no longer willing to make the same degree of sacrifice to achieve these types of goals this is also true for finders who are climbing the organizational ladder at work each step up that was considered so critical in providing further credibility and status to their narrativeself becomes less important this does not mean their performance at work suffers finders often feel that it significantly improvesby the later portions of location


like its holding everything like everythings appearing in it i cant see the edges of it though its a bit its a bit like um guess the ocean would be a good metaphor mean although you kind of he know that the ocean has limits you cant see them but i dont i dont know theres any limits to this because i cant see them and i dont you dont have that reference point to know theres any limits to it so i suppose im probably not using the word container correctly


feeling of spaciousness or just layer two


no emotions


so theres a fairly rapid and high amount of fluidity but we dont yet know if its actually fluidity or if youre viewing different layers from one


and maybe the way to get at that a little bit more is to go on to what happens when you do actually sink in and when you have the thing in your sternum in the center of your chest or whatever basically happening that that sense of a void i mean a void is one of those things that you hear you know thats a term thats very strongly associated with layer two and certainly especially at a nondual type of location like location two


and even i even hesitate to say me but theres definitely a space between the trigger and whatever is reacting i would say the spaciousness between it


location one layer two right now because im feeling that im seeing from the body um but at the same time its like completely different from before because im like the peace and the stillness


no emotion


path of humanity


cosmic love


emotion


fundamental wellbeing


if youve just got some patterns that unwind as a function of deconditioning and what returns whether there is a joy some sort of intense joy you know underneath all of that or whatnot


do not report feeling any divinity at all


allpervading consciousness


stillness for you is a good way of accessing layer three


layer one you can get a feel for is this a useful thing or would i prefer to have you know access to something like layer one from somewhere else whether a more awareness


compassion


its kind of an evolved feeling you know kind of like location threes feeling of the joy but initially it was nothing it didnt feel anything it just totally perplexing whats going on


from a purely nondual sense and location


i think the emptiness is a different one


say even more about sameness i guess i mean right away i guess i relate more to the union merger than than the the sameness there still seems to be fully full ability to discriminate differences and distinctions and the uniqueness of the the table lamp versus me


ability to report on the unfolding


location four feels a little bit like you know get thee behind me satan


youd have that very concrete sense of a looker and seer and self kind of localized in the head


so its not like spacious emptiness


deconditioned neutral emotional relatively emotionally neutral or whatever kind of deeper layer one type experience


happy to be aliveness kind of a that


layer one in terms of your sense of self and your dominant perspective then there would be


it makes sense that lets say what you mentioned around food and as recognizable feel to it id almost say but again right now it doesnt seem to me like in in the celestial like more the inbetween and but still eat meat but im quite picky to the feel of it and and but the same with anything actually so in that case like that i recognize what you say and there is a sex drive but and how can i describe that its like a little bit with like with thoughts right now like um my testosterone levels are normal and i can see that doing things in my body but its like this this distance i can see things happening moving in the body but its not me if that makes any sense


divine


including the inability to recall scheduled events that are not regular and ongoing


emptiness


god or consciousness


can be very subtle


space this you know everything is beautiful i felt more connected to the word love or loving as a concept and there was this you know beautiful soft rounded creative fertile quality to the to the energy thats really pleasant


location 3 finders sense that things are fundamentally okay is not only almost always in the foreground but has been turbocharged


actually location four type perception


location two because my system shifted and i was being the the space spacious emptiness um without without being the body anymore


when you access layer one when youre triggered


theres this awareness this aliveness which is the sort of bedrock of experience that isnt located


okay at least location six then you describe things like feeling like it s just the universe or existence that s looking out of the eyes or experiencing itself so that s something that people can say at location seven but it s definitely a very accurate description of location eight can be nine


location two is a sense


might say aliveness


and we still oftentimes shorthand that were trying to train ourselves not to so that well get better at using the labels publicly when were not thinking about it but we still internally will often use you know those old labels and stuff like that so yeah theres a lot of what looks like you know layer three


then initially it was like dismissed that was reflecting


an emptiness


its like things are appearing in it its like its like the water in the pool but without the the edges of the pool the waters just there


layer four experience


socially acceptable thing to do


that on a deep level


i chose to be here right i did the zoom thing i showed up i mean i could have made a choice not to be here i would call that agency


divinity


i would i would love to experience that freedom and to be able to bring that back as an overlay on everything else im experiencing so i definitely want to try to experience location four i think it would be really helpful and im im all confused about fluid versus integrated


um most people dont really retain fluidity to location one but it does happen


love


um of course if youre fully in layer two where youre sensing that all containing awareness and you are that they wouldnt be a sense of something to be alone


and then i was thinking maybe my layer one


joy


emptiness


location 2 also still experience a mix of emotions


pinnacle of


theres not a lot of movement around or anything like that you know its natural it seems like a natural form of fundamental wellbeing


its harder to get distance from feelings from from emotions from thoughts and that layer two


i hear you thats whats great about these exercises um prior to fundamental well being


experience of senselessness might


more purely fundamental wellbeing type


when i do think in i spend more time focusing on the fact that there is space and that something is further away rather than focusing on the space


presence which some love


sense of union


fullness have a quality of beingness


youve got the spaciousness in layer two which is a very different experience sense of spaciousness or emptiness


layer two which is really you know the that is the classical endpoint for so many systems and traditions that is identifying as the you know spacious empty presence of awareness um and feeling that you are that and are untouched by all experience and everything you describe is is really that kind of classical enlightenment in many systems


in some aspects of it its individual and some aspects of these locations we could have very granular you know type of changes we find its almost impossible to communicate those to people you know that it just sounds like a smear and so we cluster things at the at the boundary of what is a smear able sounding thing for the most part yeah yeah and so thats what allows me to listen to an experience like yours and think you know dont think that was so much a location three experience probably as maybe something more in location two layer three yeah all right


if you were at layer three before that or something


the space size of the spaciousness so that in a silence comes first


emptiness


and then maybe if you get very strongly triggered it can pull you down to layer one but it sounds like you are relatively capable


for example if this if i forget to pay attention i might go with the feeling and thoughts for for some time but but once i pay attention i can quickly go back to later two so


like if it sucked then id get out of it in fact it can lead to discomfort because enough time passes and deadline pressure builds and people want my attention for things and


and when theres that increased activity its kind of covariate with all of that social stuff right and so theres not a desire to you know theres a desire to not have people around because they dont want the individualized sense of self to trigger and all of the emotional stuff around it and it sort of in a way drags them in the wrong direction from a fundamental wellbeing standpoint now conversely if youve been in it since childhood what weve seen are indications that these these same brain structures that develop an individualized sense of self and ordinary people actually develop a non individualized sense of self and a more fundamental wellbeing oriented sense of self right so they can actually be more active just like they would be and someone whos in fundamental wellbeing but that activity is actually you know varied with fundamental wellbeing itself and if you then suppress that activity in some point either with neurofeedback or with brain stimulation or something like that it actually drives them into an individualized sense of self more and they hate it and so its the same brain region but being used completely different ways and we think its just what you know the brain accepted as sort of normal during that developmental process growing up and so youre in a very unique situation because of that you know theres not a huge amount of work thats been done on people that you know that more or less have been in fundamental wellbeing most or all of their life


i think i think what im calling the emotional experience of pure peace would have more spaciousness


its it sounds like what youre experiencing there is is a is an awareness or an ability to perceive layer one and the sense of self that it generates from wherever youre at


so if you want to get back to location one just make sure you sort of intend to leave that bridge intact between location one and location two and not pull up the ladder


joy


more empathy


fullness


in location two you obviously still have personal emotion in all likelihood or personal love


since ive been in fundamental wellbeing ive been communicating


i can see the broadband


m less concerned about you continuing to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper i dont have any issue with you playing around with that and you know i mean if anything it might be like maybe 10 to 20 of time on layer one methods


feeling full of joy


most of europe around the barrio in the room or if im at home theres you know theres theres trees in the garden i look outside the windows and and it goes a bit further yeah


deep sense that everything is perfect as it is


its like it used to be like 0 to 10 and now its like 0 to 1 and then the emotions are experienced very directly through the body like the anxiety when i feel it its i just feel it through the body like i would feel some something in my arms and my legs or in my head there is no resonance from the mind there is no like previously there would be a feedback loop like there is some thoughts going in there feeling the emotion and then the emotion is feeling the thoughts and there is this loop and now occasionally with strong triggers there is the mind loop going there is some sort of dialogue but there is no feedback like that


and i mean one thing to consider about the charmed life place thing is if you are more deconditioned


your love for your wife


sense of togetherness


i think thats maybe why layer two seems less familiar


because at that point its like the light cant turn towards it and light up inequalities and thats the only way you know that knowing has happened you know its always been relational even though its in union or it can be nondual but theres still that which knows like awareness that which lights up experience and when that entirely disappears into existence itself or into reality its only that unto itself which is entirely without those qualities


love


thinker or the thoughts


diminishing access to layer two


path of humanity


fullness


you have phenomenologically you have a more reports around fullness and stuff like that um


layer three is still and peaceful


the conditioning definitely seems to be something that is keeping you anchored to a much more shallow experience of layer one


location two layer three because a lot of the stuff there has been seen through and you know you sort of reconstituting parts of the individualized sense of self bringing agency back in


it cant be that there is no emotion just have to look harder it can be that there is no agency but there really isnt and they might not have been for quite a while


that divine love joy


spaciousness


divine


your love for your wife


the location four thing happened when i was aiming for location three


spacious emptiness


location one layer three for someone whose system is inclined in a certain way is a very strong bridge


it feels more like presence there is this sort of buzzing energy thats pretty much always happening its quite strong now um thats something that i associate with aliveness but it doesnt have the sort of intelligence that awareness has presence has uh so im not really sure thats one of the questions im not so yeah that buzzing did sort of i do associated with layer three


layer three experience


as far as you can


sense that there is this sort of space within which the universe shows up or you can feel that you are that space


but then because you didnt really lock it in you can you know read and absorb other materials when you really dive into something like youre diving into these materials rather than just casually skimming a book on it or something you know it can move you more in the direction of different experiences weve seen this a lot it happens with people who are freshly in fundamental wellbeing who dont have a lot of who havent watched a lot of spiritual videos or read a lot of books from you know about fundamental wellbeing or whatever to them


changes in the visual system seem to occur beginning around location 5


location four is no personal emotion


help us sort of get a general context of where youre at and i think in some cases youre probably getting glimpses of layer three in location one


you still have of course the habits the habit pattern and your attention system that is pulling you back to layer one


theres a quietness theres a vividness to the visual field things look more beautiful theres more appreciation was kind of a question that kind of had for you is it feels like for me beauty is a little bit of a gateway when i notice and im not talking about something that has to be you know prototypically beautiful but just like the pot sitting in the kitchen that suddenly look beautiful and


they are the universe not a being who is confined to a body to them it makes perfect sense that if this is true they should be able to perceive as the entire universe


and location two


location 5


your is getting a lot more freedom some of those types of things are bubbling up more than they would otherwise


emptiness


kind of a sense of the divine


its not necessarily because its temporary and because the reference point is remaining at layer one um its kind of its not necessarily reflecting on and deepening into the sense of actually being that all pervading presence even though that is your subjective experience if i ask you about it yeah


like layer one kind of zooms in and out and theres definitely still some some habits and some theres some avoidance protocols that are in place because theres things you dont you know thoughts have been problematic for


emptiness aloneness


flatness


i would say not divine um because i think i have a past experiences with divine that really the way i describe that is like almost something pulling me up from the sky like trying to pull me towards it like whether its outstretched hands or just that presence but this was not that this was im sort of on the same in the same field on the same level as everything and the love is sort of just all around


from layer 3 when one deepens into it


location 4


divine


and often seemed more


its very good its sort of distracting me and pulling me out of one of the physiological responses that seemed to go along with my own deeper dives into fundamental wellbeing at the time


nonduality


one deepens in fundamental wellbeing


sense of compassion


spaciousness


annoyance or sort of impatience of the situation


nondual perception


unseen portions of their experience


i feel it pulls me out honestly fundamental wellbeing


be having presence


so i was tripping over the the definition of i think its location three layer three around one singular emotion so the word emotion was tripping me because dont feel that as something localized to this form but theres a theres a tonal quality to that space or a i dont know how to maybe a frequency sensation


i didnt really experience it much at all it did talk a lot last year and i had no idea what it was like and in that course we experienced that and it was really nice


it will most likely just feel like a physiological sort of response that used to form into a more complex emotion if its very strong there might be some emotion that arises but it will probably feel like its arising as sort of part of or somehow transparent to that universal love joy compassion meta emotion


i can remain in layer three


no emotion


between now and once upon a time prior to fundamental well being is that it was a zoom in all the time and thats where identity was always located


you can pause the location three stuff for a moment


how there is this experience as i go a little bit deeper how things are sort of like like they are frozen you know like in in toys i think thats the movie theyre the toys are all alive but then the kid looks at them they are like they are not moving so it sort of feels like that like everything is alive but its not moving because im looking at it and so as soon as i stop looking at it it will you know things will start moving


emptiness


maybe ive just been telling myself presence equals layer three


to be really functional as opposed to location two layer three


location two has so many different possible experiences in it


so like with location five we generally have you know a substantial persistent change in visual perception um and so that is something that can be a lot of different things um so for instance it could be um things never really being dark but just sort of being dim or it can be sort of everything or even just some things having sort of a self luminous kind of quality however one of the ways that we think about this is most of us associate light reflects off of stuff and as the sun goes down or as i turn out the lights in a room or whatever the objects get dark right and so that just seems baked into the belief systems of most people that they develop probably causally through observation as they grew up and so okay you turn on the light things get bright its because the light reflects off of the objects or whatever sun goes down things you know whatever right there seems to be a change that occurs with location five that gets beyond that where that causality is no longer sort of assumed as part of the meaning making if you will of the visual system and so what often happens is objects are not really viewed as having light reflected off them so much as just sort of being luminous in their own way almost being like their own generators of light and that has you know a wide range of effects for starters people dont necessarily realize how not dark darkness is darkness seems to be a lot more influenced by beliefs in many cases than it is by actual physiological perception


say even more about sameness i guess i mean right away i guess i relate more to the union merger than than the the sameness there still seems to be fully full ability to discriminate differences and distinctions and the uniqueness of the the table lamp versus me


spaciousness and the emptiness being accessible and then you know


sense of emotion


so layer one you know if your attention is centered there its going to be primarily focused on thoughts and emotion if theyre around


stillness


i am that i am that fullness


have even less need for approval their loving and caring demeanor covers this up and provides plenty of approval from those around them


layer two or and i have had like particularly in gis like a feeling of fullness almost like something thats about to burst or an excited anticipation or potential


thats that combination of love and compassion and joy


i can get in touch with spaciousness


love


the mantra based meditation thats definitely in that direction and even unprovoked happiness can be in that direction


they often get exceptionally good at


happening within spaciousness or emptiness i guess


merging is


no emotion


spaciousness


how to sort of break the gravity of layer three to have it be less of a to go beyond it being a sense you know for many people


religious


passive peaceful quality of layer three


thoughts as well as a continued reduction in the


that i can that i can relate to in my own experience that i mean just everything everything having that that underlying quality of reality that even i mean i sometimes joke you know even even thoughts are real neuronal firings in your brain you know they have reality but that reality is something more fundamental


powerful hallucinogenic


i started noticing you know the the feelings of uh the feelings of in some of the stuff which ive talked about today but combination of piece and things are going to be okay


doesnt prevent negative emotions from arising


location


stillness


personal love i can experience for brief periods um infatuation i can see a shiny object and and you know get gooey about it but that never lasts for more than you know maybe a few hours um and even then im like you know kind of vigilant for it and like as soon as that arises like whats that like you know thats bullshit


there is no doer


layer three with the help of the descriptions


vastness


fullness


but in location two


compassion joy and love


now in this moment


merging


and then i usually become aware of some some sort of tension somewhere in the body and then as i keep my attention it just starts releasing and thats and so that experience makes me think that its its assuming that this experience of relaxing releasing conditioning thats so so i think thats the conditioning that keeps me in that layer one and


spaciousness emptiness


location four you probably even understand how the divine was sort of created in the system and you just realize okay well theres you know the divine is just basically you know bs


were generally not reported


emotion


location 4


sense of self


more in the forefront of experience


the reason i pointed out is because i think because the self disappears the self that youre using as a reference point which is the personal self when you sink into layer three


although a soulless version of a dark night of the soul the soul word doesnt make a lot of sense to them um and so there are these there are such significant changes identity wise for you in that leap from layer three to layer four location four


one which sees much of what is directly experienced in life as quite peculiar and funny when paid close attention to


connected to everything in the immediate


tension deconditioning practices deepening in sinking in probably sinking into a location three type of experience


the nonduality the way it showed up


it makes perfect sense youd be able to zoom in zoom out


layer three location three


fundamental wellbeing


theres a smear of the mind in there too and even maybe how i experienced layer three as well


i call it the exuberance of the universe like laughter that its a flavor in layer three


like layer three is sort of you know fluid but its sort of like i dont know lounging around its like sort of there but in more of the location three state it was like it was almost dancing


location two layer four is an easier traverse between going between the layers and to then when you flip into four it


a state where that very that emotion is present thats a combination of love joy and compassion


and should i try to sink into layer three


and if you really deepen into layer four in location two your system will sooner or later be unable to really stabilize that in location two and it will shift into location four


one of them is the love aspect of and any other aspects of layer


we try to see where youve come back to or whether there s some fluidity in the system that s producing sort of the more layer three type experiences that youve regained access to


but it certainly sounds like youre predominant location is location to layer three it sounds like you probably can get pulled down to layer one


bare stillness


but not as regularly accessible as potentially layer three fullness i would say lets talk about the fullness for a minute


location to layer two thing


location 1


quality of spaciousness


so i can see it happening from a distance but thats it and could you could say jump into it


separating away from the individualized sense of self


it feels like a mixture of various highly positive emotions and feelings such as compassion joy and love


richness


permeating everything


emptiness


fullness


fundamental wellbeing


well if i have to make a choice i would say lets keep at location two layer three for now


but you talk about boundlessness you often talk about things like boundaryless boundaryless field of awareness you know awareness is a term that is more associated from our perspective with layer three


im in location one layer one at this moment


um and up to date location nine


an example of one potential reason relates to personal love for ones child


nonduality


spaciousness


and then same for location three in some ways so location three can be really powerful for healing things because you cant really experience negative emotion so just bringing you know thats essentially the whole thing with leicesters love it just really encodes the memories to be an experience thats associated with the pardon


aloneness


location four


compassion


freedom the piece mainly that its so peaceful


merger


i feel the vibration of what i call love or either love joy or compassion usually compassion is the easiest one


emotional


or layer two and have an immense amount of activity at layer one


true thats a tricky name yeah yeah okay well um yeah all that all that comes up to say would be related to that um self dropping away which i think because of your experience with helping people shift out of the personal sense of self um and seeing that from the other side um you can probably um sense into in some way uh so theres the personal sense of self which is really constructed conceptually and what youre experiencing is what one could consider an impersonal sense of self in that there is beingness or presence you wouldnt say that theres you know that you dont exist or something um but its not personal in nature its universal in nature it is you know in union with all being with the essence of all being um and when that disappears theres obviously a disappearance of even the quality of being or beingness theres like just existence without that condition because being is then perceived to be a condition that would imply that you know what what existence is subject to a condition of being and it feels just more fundamental or absolute than that but the the self is essentially what remains is that which reflects on experience so im not talking about the mind having an interpretation of experience but simply that which kind of reflects on experience and has therefore got the sense of i exist i am but also produces relationship and so thats this is really


still have a full range of emotions


location two because my system shifted and i was being the the space spacious emptiness um without without being the body anymore


layer two


i am hoping so much to be deeper in fundamental being that im trying to daydream into it


occurred in sense of self all aspects of having


location four didnt seem appealing at all and it sounded well scary you could say like no agency being a puppet and no emotions and


probably the use of psychedelics has been whats got me to that place but i also have just feel that felt that expansive sense of divine love to associating with location three layer three


deep experience of of layer two where you feel you are the spacious emptiness


presence


union


nfw


fluidity


path of freedom


you know the mind and it operating in the mind is essentially operating from the perspective of there being a body you know or a system that is individualized that needs to function in an individualized way to operate in the world


spaciousness


can can kind of manufacture emptiness if i say this is a so this may be maybe this is going back to layer two um emptiness


i can even when you were just describing it i can say oh yeah yeah i know that but again i dont know whether is there a gravitational pull to location three once youre in it


regarding layer three right but id say its a minority of people that are going to experience either one of those i never experienced anything involving luminosity for instance i did experience sort of the viscous fluid thing heard a lot of other people describing the luminosity thing


from a location two perspective


i would mean that youve already described youve experienced the benefits of layer two to deconditioning and that is something youve you know highlighted as being important to you and something youre working on


maybe aliveness um presence beingness thats showing up


you can experience our proto emotions like one would in location four so those are very brief sort of experiences of the what you could think of as the building blocks of emotion or some very sort of foundational experience of emotion


regarding the layer three experiences what youve described thus far is primarily affect so its like emotion related to what can be related to layer three particularly if its like very impersonal forms of love joy compassion um those types of experiences


emptiness


sometimes yeah sometimes i certainly had it as i go a little bit deeper like as im kind of like more like with time space the time just space sort of yeah like maybe slightly different from all the other space but sort of space


fullness


something connected with maybe a feeling of settling in


that was a very low kind of stillness thing in terms of vibrational frequency of the stillness and stuff from my standpoint you know and then and then you know very early on like when i asked you to focus on fullness it was like just cranking up the dial to like a high frequency higher frequency stillness in an unusual way for me to perceive such that it just really stood out i was like oh wow this is this is going to be a stillness thing


love


unless you want to be in location one or something


and when i go deeper into layer two there is also this really deep sense of quietness its like an inner silence and an outer silence


stillness


real sense of divinity


like you are entering layer two its completely missing and user interface but so there was like a real like shit kind of movement or shift from i am the thinker of my thoughts to seeing


but now if i feel into the spaciousness it doesnt have boundaries it doesnt have it doesnt really end no so the space seems endless


spaciousness


it would seem the moments that the centre and falls away and the self comes more less and less that


no emotion


um whats your experience with with layer one


fluid to layer one


it could be that youre that youre okay living from location one that that is the life integrated place that you want to actually live from even though you know you have beliefs that are different than that or you feel a pull maybe thats different than that from a fundamental wellbeing standpoint right


duality of location one


theres no emotionally sort of inclined layer three version of location four


aliveness


if there is none present that maybe my default is layer two


vastness


spaciousness and emptiness


emptiness aloneness


place of presumptuousness


covarying with the active qualities of layer one


it yeah it feels its like the space between objects between main objects and the that that things objects are thing that space yeah and if i go a bit deeper when ive been doing like a deeper meditation i get to a point where its there is the center that im like the center


location 4 reported a near total immersion


even feeling that space was just jarring


no agency


layer three of location two um in that direction


so i guess i had thought fluid location five with also knowing how to hang out in the charmed life place for a bit


of course you know all to some degree when you go to location for all bets are off


it was just feeling kind of centerless but now its feeling like there is some kind of um a feeling of connected fullness


location three


but probably it s going to remain location two


involves a change from feeling like there is an ambiguous but definite center inside


fullness


um but then your second point was getting some fluidity to layer two which given that deconditioning is something that is important to you and that youre working on thats probably a good idea


it may still feel like you have a lot of individualness and you know thoughts and emotions and things like that and thats perfectly fine because all of that can continue to exist at layer one


it would be around sort of the location to layer two type of attributes


the fullness and the and the presence


im being more passive and you know and i think itll be important for me to recognize that a lot of what i do is really passive


you dont have to shift out of the deconditioning you know you can you can just sink in to deeper into fundamental wellbeing you can sink as deep as you want really into fundamental wellbeing while the conditioning is there and let the conditioning have the impact or let the let the let the deepening fundamental wellbeing have the impact on the conditioning


just kind of just is its it has a sense of awareness like it knows everything its theres nothing that can its outside of time and space and yet okay its in everything it sees everything it knows everything it theres nothing where it isnt yeah it doesnt fit thats why it doesnt feel like a container to me when i look at that way


parts of negative emotions are still occasionally felt but only rarely fully form


im describing is layer three okay so theres the experience of for you you know that all pervading sense of presence of the divine but it remains an experience of it um and therefore relational even though theres a union its relational and um its if you compare you know the idea of what we experience say the sun we experience the sun in a certain way um but the experience of the sun as it is unto itself is entirely different to our experience of the sun and the same goes for the divine or you know the the ground of being while it remains relational its an entirely different experience than when that relationship falls away or collapses and theres nothing to experience it and theres only it as it is unto itself um which means the qualities as we experience them the qualities of it whether thats divinity or presence or beingness um those can no longer be perceived because theyre only perceived in in relation to it you know as it is known to the self um but when that reflection on experience ceases its just as it is unto itself its its you know without um go ahead


lightly nondual


location 2 was the change in subjectobject


okay so youve been in fundamental wellbeing for quite a while


central locus of perception which they often


nondual


sense of agency


and location two


at that point thats out of reach in all likelihood unless somehow you come in at a lower layer in location four


i would say im in layer two


which may be useful as an access point in your during your day because you describe the stillness as pervading everything so and having a quality of sort of aliveness and that type of thing where youre describing the presence as well so thats all kind of heading in the direction of layer three


fullness


spaciousness


if something major happens such as the death of a beloved child parent or spouse negative emotion can arise


fundamental wellbeing


and then when it s more having that deeper experience where there s the sense of union or the dissolving the melting into creation possibly glimpses of location three


location 5 and later brings reintegration beyond anything that can previously be imagined


location 1 is a newfound sense that everything is fundamentally fine


location five feels as flat as location four


so that would mean you know any qualities of joy or love compassion anything that feels sort of sacred or divine if you are prone to that experience and location three or otherwise that sense of presence pervading everything especially if you can get a sense of it being somehow conscious or intelligent those are sort of location three type layer three experiences


whether old or new


actually made up of that spaciousness


location 4


location for when youre at some parent teacher thing


location one i feel uh a little bit of noise id say and conditioning yeah my conditioning comes to the foreground


pure emotion


emptiness


experience spaciousness first sometimes emptiness first


emptiness is two


sense of self shift all the way into layer one


location 2


thats who knows some portion of layer three or some afterglow from layer three or some thread to layer three or whatever it is but then you know youre really going to want to spend time dedicated time sinking in and really clearly communicating to your system and to the habit formation in your attention that no no no its these things you know its not the spaciousness its not the emptiness its not the spacious emptiness its not the spacious emptiness combined with the fullness its the fullness its the presence its the infinite field thing its whatever


fundamental wellbeing


again and make it a way just to pick on her because she we dont have to worry about anonymity of her data since shes with the project and talks about this stuff with people or whatever else but shes a good example of that you know since shes come back from later locations these visual perception things remain with her


so do you notice any other changes weve talked about layer two and spaciousness and


path of humanity


find myself gravitating towards the silence you know and i can feel i can feel the pull like to i just want to be by myself i just want to sink right and which to me is wonderful but also slightly perilous because i could see how you go say too deep there but yeah you go off on that path


spaciousness


the fullness the presence


this thing is almost analogous to effective prayer when used in temporary ways and so its not even a situation necessarily where one would have to go to stay there for six months or some period of time it can its i think its very i think its probably what most people are referring to as effective really hyper effective prayer you know people that get people that really get to an experience like i think my mom is probably there for instance she really believes that like her prayers are always answered and occasionally one doesnt come true and it kind of freaks her out like you know maybe her relationship with god is having some issues or something like that right


sense that there is this sort of space within which the universe shows up or you can feel that you are that space


lack of emotion


freedom


divine


ill channel jesus for you


memories are simply arising less on their own


divinity


no doer


so ive been working on that for decades anyway um but there are some things i dont have access to like dont have access to i cant see or hear or feel the effects of of the energy transmission but that people tell me about later after the concerts over um so i dont have a sense of where exactly its going other people have been able to see that observe that process happening but um for me im just aware of it all radiating out and very very centered and very spacious


sense of impersonal love


layer one level


so while the period you know the punctuated periods where theres like you know blooming and pruning happening in the brain if you remember that from your psychology you know training days right where you have sort of those periods of explosive growth of connections and whatnot in the brain and then a pruning back to whats going to be you know sort of the constrained normal after that and just all of those different developmental phases


location to type situation


ive had like more kind of nondual moments than the then im like oh did i do that you know and just sort of feeling a bit like i mentioned this when i kind of think about it like it feels like there is this empty space in there


showing up in the layer three


all right so generally speaking when i hear something like that it immediately makes me think probably location two


emptiness


the love joy rich qualities can show up in layer three


the reason i pointed out is because i think because the self disappears the self that youre using as a reference point which is the personal self when you sink into layer three


s im not im not you know concluding this yet but it does look like that that description is more layer two


perception and the resulting change in sense of


location 2 individuals also have fewer and less powerful conditioned psychological responses


changes in encoding


freedom


out instead of feeling and presence feels no quieter or calmer


fairly significant amount of proclivity right now to location three or to being able to move in the direction of location three


not layer one


unity or oneness of two different types


aliveness


one of the things most finders notice first is a reduction in their interest in nearly all stories


so it sounds um definitely you know interject if this doesnt sound right to you um were just trying to make sense of your way of interpreting your experience and and languaging it but it does sound like your attention is much more on the space essentially or on the the emptiness surrounding objects of perception or the space between them and because your attention is much more on that the spaciousness is almost like more in the foreground or more what your attention is centering on than the things and so the things kind of are in the background you could think of or more backgrounded than the spaciousness which produces you know this focus on the spaciousness or the emptiness in which everything is arising


b however does it seem like when youre looking that everything is just sort of showing up okay so thats just a quick test we do for nondual perception so thats a second vote in favor of location two


love


there is a sense of me here but its not its not showing up in the perceptual field like the perceptual field is just here the sense the sense of me


emptiness


it makes sense that lets say what you mentioned around food and as recognizable feel to it id almost say but again right now it doesnt seem to me like in in the celestial like more the inbetween and but still eat meat but im quite picky to the feel of it and and but the same with anything actually so in that case like that i recognize what you say and there is a sex drive but and how can i describe that its like a little bit with like with thoughts right now like um my testosterone levels are normal and i can see that doing things in my body but its like this this distance i can see things happening moving in the body but its not me if that makes any sense


the layer one is getting more pulled back into the story and the sort of feeling of the the thoughts that put me into the past or the future or something like that


i really think hes in fundamental wellbeing


alien quality


you could do that possibly um maybe not you know maybe theres a sense maybe you stay in the shallow range of layer three and just start moving in that direction letting that stuff start to come up


is there a difference in wellbeing when the spacious emptiness takes over versus when it s not there


its also possible that its just your attention getting very very dominantly occupied with layer one and maybe a bit shallower


location 2


brings a more substantial change and is much harder to miss


location 4


consciousness and awareness


and and to that point so what i mentioned earlier with the teachers ive been working with and really working with one of my buddhist teachers thats the person i was referring to really made a huge difference and also my ability to access nonduality but a big emphasis there was feeling emotions


that i can that i can relate to in my own experience that i mean just everything everything having that that underlying quality of reality that even i mean i sometimes joke you know even even thoughts are real neuronal firings in your brain you know they have reality but that reality is something more fundamental


divine


emotion


mixture of personal and impersonal love


you know youre past the sense point obviously of layer two youre to the direct perceiving of layer two at various amounts of depth of layer two and even to the point where youre starting to get occasional periods of identity shifting into it and so thats you know a really good progression into layer two


body


emptiness


spaciousness


negative affect and now experienced one


its there and location to layer three and then the personal side drops off and location three and then emotion itself drops off and location four and thats whats providing that richness you know of that experience and so its although there can still be you know a sense of presence found in the experience and stuff like that its like an alien type of presence compared to you know what someone experienced up to that and its going to you know youre typically speaking youre going to lose access to it in a matter of weeks and root more into just layer four and location four


and then while youre in layer one you know youre able to produce a memory of layer three if thats what it is


sacred divinity


you would want to minimize sort of those proclivities in your experience that relate to location three and maybe try to make it on to layer four


the qualities of spaciousness emptiness


that sense of nonduality but the subtle sense of duality um like informing it or underlying it


being a seer because think you know what i what i dont do that theres just a tendency to to float kind of untethered and dont feel quite done in the spot i think need to stick around in this in the system for a while it doesnt feel like im finished in this experience whatever finished means it both feels complete but not quite done so dont i dont know how to describe it but think i was


sometimes yeah sometimes i certainly had it as i go a little bit deeper like as im kind of like more like with time space the time just space sort of yeah like maybe slightly different from all the other space but sort of space


in that moment do you think that youre just moving deeper into layer two


i think the centralist thing might not relate to deep and layer three center lessness


when it when its more intense its more like love


presence


you dont have to shift out of the deconditioning you know you can you can just sink in to deeper into fundamental wellbeing you can sink as deep as you want really into fundamental wellbeing while the conditioning is there and let the conditioning have the impact or let the let the let the deepening fundamental wellbeing have the impact on the conditioning


i was nowhere near fundamental wellbeing


emptiness


impersonal joy


radiance


spaciousness


location 2


so this is a great opportunity in your case because that s a big difference being going between layer two of location two


its more like that the way you describe layer four when its experienced from layer three is being like this sense of a deep mystery behind it all and you know its like my mind cant grasp it and but i sense it


so do you think when that centralist experience shows up that it s a transition from location one


nondual


location three really feels like the peak of humanity and human experience


emotions


divine


empty


yeah let me describe some things that could be happening for you and you can tell me whether it resonates or whether parts of it do or you know what your sense is around that so that deeper layer you know beyond layer four um what it makes possible is a very a great degree of fluidity in a certain sense but even a kind of almost as if youre in a greater like more a greater dimension than the matrix and you can kind of see all of it


frankly and i havent had experiences like that with the exception of one in the last month i dont really have experiences like that anymore but i do sometimes wonder if im kind of when some conditioning is triggered im getting pulled back into layer one theres more discreet conventional kind of emotional experience and then im able to kind of like slingshot back into location three sometimes i have to be more intentional sometimes it feels just like boom boom ive gone in and out really quick other times i think i have to be more intentional about it and i have to it wheres the peace wheres the love wheres that sense of you know god or the divine and then you know i can transition back pretty quickly


they were clearly layer three qualities in addition like a feeling or like a rich experience and the fullness of aliveness


fullness


itll move as you as you sink in but just what you can do is is sink into that experience and really let your system recognize that theres an entirely different experience of what you are or of being than there normally is and while the personal self is you know temporarily either in the background or dissolved there is still beingness you know its not like youve ceased to exist and so you can just let your system kind of recognize that what you are is more foundational than the the personal sense of self that can just fall away because that is already what youre experiencing its just that the recognition of it isnt necessarily happening at the deepest level that it can


charmed life


im whats interesting you know you ask some questions that i listened to earlier ones about emotion and its an interesting one because i mean all those questions are great things to reflect on because emotion you know when you talk about love and ive really noticed when you ask that question because love is an emotion um its tricky because its so deeply ingrained of what it is that it clearly not that i can but its a totality of what is showing up and so theres just you know i think one of the words i heard is love is just what is and i didnt understand it and now thats all there is theres just the love of what is and since i dont know what this is or this is theres a love for that too and i think you know maybe im talking to one of the biggest ones was knowing about emotion and how its not here and they extend it whether its here or not and only knows when it shows up as i said i separated from my wife and thats not been easy but its now pretty solid here but still she resents very deeply what happened and you know theres no forgiveness there so when it was interactions she usually ends up with some type of unpleasantness toward me and there was the last time its just i just felt this exuding sense of love and compassion for what was being expressed and it had nothing to do with ear and it was just no feeling of emotion arising it was just an openness of saying yes that too and you know that just kind of blew me away i hadnt felt that before


perceived change in agency


joy


location 1


maybe ive just been telling myself presence equals layer three


fundamental wellbeing


youve got the spaciousness in layer two which is a very different experience sense of spaciousness or emptiness


the space size of the spaciousness so that in a silence comes first


you know less freedom but better slightly richer whatever more some love whatever experience of the path of humanity


layer one of course are all visible that


nonduality


yes if youre more rooted in layer three


but you know the nature of the thoughts like if im to compare myself to ten years ago you know the nature of myself is very different its theres not really a tangible self per se theres no voice in my head or like not really many im not really interested in narratives or not many narrative thoughts going back to me its just not something im really drawn to yet i do think about life situations i do analyze things i do make plans theres just not so much backward looking activity in that sense so yeah i can go on


they can seem to have a whole range of emotions because of course their system actually does have emotion theyre just not able to perceive it


pulled out of fundamental object


flat


centerless or boldness


emotion kind of the mind


i think just like two times maybe um like exactly as described in the book just the spaciousness emptiness at one point became just fullness and but it only happened to me after like deep deep yoga and meditation like for a long time


divine


fullness is three


okayness the beingness


its just not baked in as part of the natural abilities that come with fundamental well being on top of fundamental well being being hard thing to do in the first place and so its all its all sort of loops back around on itself


just unfolding with doing and deciding simply


deep sense of impersonal love


anxiety


aloneness


just everything and this happened to me like every time im sinking like deep


its also possible that its just your attention getting very very dominantly occupied with layer one and maybe a bit shallower


combination of love joy and


so you know im not its not a bad thing that you shift into layer one or anything like that its not something to be avoided


reconditioning process that s occurred for you and location one


like the qualities of layer two is just you know spaciousness or emptiness a sense of everything arising within it as it if your universe view feels like kind of this um all containing sense of this one thing thats just arising that is um i suppose if its layer two in essence it would feel somehow like it is the space within which the universe arises or that the universe is somehow composed of a spacious emptiness or that type of quality


its more like that the way you describe layer four when its experienced from layer three is being like this sense of a deep mystery behind it all and you know its like my mind cant grasp it and but i sense it


you get fullness sometimes get emptiness


help them transition into fundamental wellbeing


so this and i think most christians have a more temporary experience of that theyre not as rooted in to location two layer three and you know their prayers occasionally work i think when they work theyre closer sort of in that type of direction or whatever and so you can you can maintain fluidity use location to layer three like that and not you know not have to lock that in for any period of time


location 3 finders sense of self feels very connected to both others and the rest of the world in general


yeah its definitely not going to reach your level but that doesnt mean its not impacting your actions and the decision making lower down at layer one


nonduality


from there they can let the whole process go before anything further arises or allow it to arise


spaciousness and layer two


a feeling that you are the thinker im not sure whether what youre describing is really shifting your identity or whether youre just shifting the focus of your attention to be you know almost entirely occupied with thought or with you know speaking personality aspects and so on so that shift that were looking for if its you know true fluidity to layer one that would mean not only is your attention occupied with the contents of layer one but also the sense of self has moved into layer one like you are the personality you are the thinker you are the one speaking you know generating those


spaciousness


if i pay attention i can i can go back to layer two


location1 the sense of


divine


you know shift me in there or if i should focus on the love feelings first and then


emptiness


thinking back to the past oftentimes in fundamental wellbeing you can think back to sort of the worst things in the past and its still youre still sort of experiencing them through fundamental wellbeing


they were clearly layer three qualities in addition like a feeling or like a rich experience and the fullness of aliveness


fullness


layer three and location three


merging


so youre saying you have no thoughtsyes my mind is completely silentwhat is one plus onetwohmmmdid you watch the presidential debate last nightyesdo you have a favorite candidateusually i vote democrat but im leaning towards the other person this timewhyi think his position on something i consider important is more inline with my viewbut again you say you have no thoughtscorrectand no sense that there is an individual yourighthmmmits easy to see how an exchange like this one can be somewhat baffling it took a great deal of careful probing experimentation and analysis to unravel and come to grips with seemingly contradictory statements such as those in the example above


compassion


but i think i probably got good access to to layer three and lie three ive always felt alive three im fairly easily never really felt lied to but through this exercise i could i could feel i could feel lied to a bit more


location 4 finders say they do not have a sense of agency individuals at locations 2 and 3 can also comment that there is no doer this is related to the earlier discussion of there being no seer or hearer etc


its more a reaction


think of spaciousness all the time


not really it feels pretty full it feels more full


location three might be that single emotion or it might be some merging with divinity


presence


for the most part you might be touching on you know an aspect of layer three if theres really a strong sense of aliveness thats not just in the body but thats pervading you know that spaciousness or that space so the space has a quality of being infused with aliveness if thats your experience then that may be touching on you know beginning to have a smear of layer three


in some cold emotionless agency lists wasteland


sometimes the layer to spaciousness location to layer two stuff comes in spontaneously as a result of just the right environment or circumstances typically relating to the safety thing


yeah things feel very still whatever this thing is and i really enjoy being in this stillness


spaciousness


non duality


fundamental wellbeing


sense of like a sense


location 4


spaciousness is coming from that side from your left side


sense you know given your background and what youve traditionally gravitated from you know force towards system wise rooted into for decades um you know all of that stuff for sure i mean its all so classically layer three


really explore layer two


thats kind of i suppose you could think of it as a very shallow experience of layer two certainly because you have sense of spaciousness as well sort of crossing over into layer two


layer one feels like there is more thoughts thoughts can be stickier like more often thoughts come up and then the mind gets like gets on that thought train and just stays there for some time and its and and also the the conditioning comes up more often for the body


to a location 4 finder it feels like the debate is just happening it does not feel as if the person as an individual is wrapped up in it


joy


contemplation


freedom


location two


sense of union with the divine


i almost cant feel the emptiness its too full


they can feel like a blessing is radiating out to everyone in their presence


so much so that it made me think it s almost unusual for someone to have this nice a deconditioning process without having jumped over to location two and maybe not knowing it


that means youve got quite a lot of range in terms of different qualities of layer two that youre able to experience um the spaciousness the all containing nature of it


emotion that is kind of a meta emotion


it was just this experience of all inclusive love like there was no separation between anything and um it was incredible


merging with the consciousness pervading everything


location 2 the positive nature of their emotions continues to increase


the path of freedom was more common in eastern research participants especially monastics and the path of humanity in western ones


but theres still a little bit of nonduality


location 3 finders are typically delightful to be around


its more like spaciousness and yeah when im deep in there its like im this space im just this space and everything is arising in it even me


dont notice the stillness and the spaciousness anymore


location three union


divine


emotion


experience of the spaciousness but its still relatively shallow because your identity isnt generally speaking really shifting into that


path of humanity


spacious emptiness


emptiness


would be in the shadow of forms of fundamental wellbeing is to develop


the fullness the presence


layer three type of experience


because thats a tough place to be so if you and they doubt probably and they often doubt that they are even in fundamental being at that point because its such a difficult place to be it feels like they left fundamental wellbeing and entered a dark night of the soul of some kind


does it go beyond your body


primarily joy


we want to think about it that i think part of it is always with someone that we have to you know really come to grips with that really give our systems permission for that really communicate that were okay with that youve spent a long time now telling your system this is what i want experience wise something like this it doesnt have to be exactly like this im open to some variation but you know within these boundaries right and now youre more or less saying something very different than that to go to location four layer four and location three


theres still a sense of fullness theres still a sense of okayness unless its a kind of extraordinary situation


glimpse a more pure form of layer four in location four


location 4


finders in this situation have deepened on the continuum while needing to hide their inner experience of fundamental wellbeing from those around them


when you remember and theres presence which of which of these two things feels more like the case


people are divinity


joyfulness


i do think location three could do a lot for you so its probably worth seeing what thats like because theres more trade off on the location for side given the interpersonal nature of some of the work you do


stillness and silence


all pervading sense of consciousness


aliveness or sense of beingness


i was going to say that the stillness feels like home


maybe something youve done its great its really great and when you and you know if you do just want to keep going further and further and further and further layer wise


primarily centered in layer three


sure yeah i think if you continue your current you know surrendering path so to speak this which is very similar to what you just said you know youre surrendered in whatever direction it goes most likely its going to continue to go in that direction of of location for


spaciousness


location 2


but the other answer the layer one answer is really looking in to each one of these things and getting it to consciously in your system separate from im not going to die


emptiness


spaciousness standpoint


nonduality


so spending a lot of time trying to thinking that youre going to decondition something like that while youre in layer one and that thats going to be like the key to moving you forward in fundamental wellbeing is more or less just a really good way to waste a lot of time


opposed to feeling like its me


so when that when you feel that you are that thats really near the deepest reaches of layer three


huge fullness


theres virtually no fear about the future which is not really good because i think i was motivated by fear and driven by fear


experiencing a single ongoing emotion that felt


unless theres some crazy conditioning or something that pulls someone down or which is which often has to be like some significant trauma in the system that just locks them into like layer two of location four you know at which point theyd probably rather not be in fundamental wellbeing


sense of the divine


it feels like a nondual location three like a super nondual three like a location three


that makes more sense all right so yeah its a trigger to awareness for some reason yeah okay so it is awareness related methods that youre in good shape there you know thats the majority of people slight majority i mean not like 70 of people or something but yeah okay so thats great um thats thats a good sign that those work for you because those are those are good for especially progression through layer two


i would say location one with layer one


fullness


it does come and go yeah yeah but say you like out in the trees probably once a month so thats when its at its peak aw yeah yeah i even felt that in the city actually on the full moon because i went out in the night and rode my bike around the city for 3 or 4 hours and enjoyed the moon over the water


sense of something wrong at the same time that i know theres i can access okayness


location 4


remember from the content that there a strong link oftentimes between layer three


location 2


better than location four layer four just based on ive heard that you know location for layer four is not terribly associated with go getter type of attitudes no matter the piece or anything


the sense of safety so um theres just a sense like something is going to go wrong at any minute or is going wrong


so in location three its generally one wouldnt have personal emotion so that includes most you know basically negative emotion even things like personal love um theres really just that impersonal or universal love joy compassion that composes that meta emotion so thats what im sort of digging into


make a choice locations prior to this seemed


emptier


spaciousness


beingness


sometimes i think maybe that is like a layer four glimpse


the location four doesnt you know show up as something that is necessarily dissociative or trauma related in in the ordinary sense


sense of agency


location 2 finders are more likely to intuitively feel that there is a correct decision or path to take when presented with choices even if there seems to be very little rationality behind the direction being taken


sense of divine


true thats a tricky name yeah yeah okay well um yeah all that all that comes up to say would be related to that um self dropping away which i think because of your experience with helping people shift out of the personal sense of self um and seeing that from the other side um you can probably um sense into in some way uh so theres the personal sense of self which is really constructed conceptually and what youre experiencing is what one could consider an impersonal sense of self in that there is beingness or presence you wouldnt say that theres you know that you dont exist or something um but its not personal in nature its universal in nature it is you know in union with all being with the essence of all being um and when that disappears theres obviously a disappearance of even the quality of being or beingness theres like just existence without that condition because being is then perceived to be a condition that would imply that you know what what existence is subject to a condition of being and it feels just more fundamental or absolute than that but the the self is essentially what remains is that which reflects on experience so im not talking about the mind having an interpretation of experience but simply that which kind of reflects on experience and has therefore got the sense of i exist i am but also produces relationship and so thats this is really


how long have you been in fundamental wellbeing


the negative emotions are much more transient and do not have the power over them that they once did


im describing is layer three okay so theres the experience of for you you know that all pervading sense of presence of the divine but it remains an experience of it um and therefore relational even though theres a union its relational and um its if you compare you know the idea of what we experience say the sun we experience the sun in a certain way um but the experience of the sun as it is unto itself is entirely different to our experience of the sun and the same goes for the divine or you know the the ground of being while it remains relational its an entirely different experience than when that relationship falls away or collapses and theres nothing to experience it and theres only it as it is unto itself um which means the qualities as we experience them the qualities of it whether thats divinity or presence or beingness um those can no longer be perceived because theyre only perceived in in relation to it you know as it is known to the self um but when that reflection on experience ceases its just as it is unto itself its its you know without um go ahead


nondual experience


alone


this form of social give and take can trigger them and will sometimes be experienced as deep hurt


the advantage is location three feels fantastic and a lot of deconditioning can happen there that is kind of special in a way to location three because of the absence of personal emotion and yet the presence of such a all comprehensive love and all of that and so that can have a very profound healing effect on conditioning that is otherwise more difficult to take care of so yeah there are definitely benefits of location three in and of itself


but theres never an experience of that self being like removed from or distinct from you know what youre experiencing as though you know like a like a duality where like that self is whats looking out your eyes and the stuff is out there and the self is in here


very full


charmed life nature of the experience in location to layer three


and it can be all kinds of stuff for people and you know location for


its not always there but as i said a lot of times im just in my mind theres some times that it feels kind of emotionally flat so no its not always there


spaciousness and emptiness


once location 4 or beyond is reached these finders are typically left alone to deepen and explore their new location


emptiness


well right now the conversation is happening in the presence the presence is the bigger thing so now im trying to remember like i think its the opposite way around so theres more sort of like i am the whatever that personality is or i sort of believe it more


and layer three


right and thats not an easy thing for them to do youre not in any different position just because youre in fundamental wellbeing youve got an established life self within this i dont know if you were listening to the last call with annemieke talking to someone who was basically kind of new in location three and had lost it it was there for like you know five days or something and then fell out of it and was interested in getting back to it or whatever but one thing that i thought was really interesting that she basically said is that you know as youre going through the location to to location three to location four theres like this progression of the loss of the personal self at location three and then the loss of the non personal self at location four and so even though youre not thinking of yourself as sort of having a sense of self there is a self that sort of has to die to some degree or has to surrender or has to give way just like ive advised you know a zillion people right over your time of helping them to transition to fundamental wellbeing you know


the pieces of the remaining aspects of the narrativeself that fall away in these later locations are often old deep and very complexly embedded in the psyche


it is a sense of being connected with divine


the experience of present moment awareness inner peace and wellbeing continues to grow and deepen


christianity


so theres just these ranges of different types of experience and theyre all you know theyre all perfectly fine


physiological ailments most likely remain as well


because at least theres some action now and im kind of like since transitioning a bit detached about you know my career who gives a shit you know and you know family just you know an idea like im more detached and i dont really care about a lot of things achievements you know and of course if i would just like to sit on my couch and you know i dont know become a mommy you know its i see why the system can be fearful about that you know yeah but yeah bringing it in into life more i think and and spending more time thinking deeper and see then where it takes me i think its a very good point


its not for you its like driving right but you can imagine like if you know youre like really into some sport or something it can be like a holy crap kind of actually happened to me with location two


top end of location three


agency is basically a sense that you can take action in the world in the sense that were using it its the sense that you can sort of take action in the world that you can make decisions things like that and so folks in location four are usually find that to be a ridiculous idea you know they can have a glimpse of a mental layer that theyre watching discuss things that you know can seem to come to decisions or something but they feel almost like its a read only situation you know its like its a view only situation like they have no input into it you know whatsoever and then a decision is reached and you know their body seems to do that and they still feel like they have no real input in that in that thing


self felt expanded


spaciousness


i had a message about something to do with my dad who died recently that was quite significant and yeah and i think i might be in location three right now


i came across this this test on your website that is like asks ten questions and then tells you if youre in the middle of being or not and i remember at the time i was thinking that im probably not in fundamental wellbeing because i was just going through all this heavy conditioning that i was working with and it just wasnt fun


were just looking mostly at how the fullness is showing up


you dont really have a sense of a look or a location three


so you can sort of sink into deeper layers if you want of layer three where that center starts to drop away um and is there a what is the experience of stillness or silence um at layer three for you


its just all one big going on and its not happening to me its all just happening and its sort of like you know sensation inside the body is all part of the that thats going on


viewing and accessing layer one with just you know some subtle differences and preferences between those in terms of the lives


sense of self


do you have a sense of your identity being centered in layer one


humanity


centerless field


i can even when you were just describing it i can say oh yeah yeah i know that but again i dont know whether is there a gravitational pull to location three once youre in it


and you may find that when you get to location three that lifts there is a personal emotion component to it that is producing some negative valence in there that is producing sort of that negative feel


emotion


location three layer three maybe you experience again that you feel like you have a soul kind of thing or something


location one is sort of ideal you know for your life right now


sensation which is separate to other universe mind bodies in a sense this is where ive got to be very careful because you know with the with the medicine journeys like the and i dont know whether this is the different like layers locations and so on but ive had so many different experiences there


you describe it as a joy a positivity a contentment a warmth a glow


yeah it feels full


have a strong noetic sense


feel even better seems surprising


but not as regularly accessible as potentially layer three fullness i would say lets talk about the fullness for a minute


non sensory perception of layer three that youre calling an aliveness or or vibratory quality in everything thats not localized in the body then that can be an experience of layer three


and theres some more notes here like the deepest part of this is is the back of my heart feels really sort of timeless spaciousness or or like like like a like a grand dimension um i feel like im behind myself im watching myself im feeling like im a field of awareness the body is still here and it still has sensations and pain but its happening within a field sometimes when im driving it feels like everything is moving through me and again feeling im not having a back or a heart or a head so that so so more the back the back of the body the back of the head im feeling emptiness and when i notice this this then fills up the room um and i feel im in in the rooms um so to speak and so this can have like an emptiness feeling but then the body is still there but then when i when i when i go into this sort of spaciousness feeling behind myself im the body


strength of selfrelated thoughts


that distance is the way something can show up in layer two when people are especially screws with people who are like athletic and like you know play baseball or basketball or whatever else suddenly they sort of suck for a period of time because they you know their spatial perceptions


which would still mean that the mind is quite dominant in your experience


spaciousness


presence


hard to remember because if theyre short lived i mean theres something going on in meditation where the body is becomes like a picasso painting its fragmented the the seamlessness of it isnt there so it feels like theres a foot and a hand and a surface of the chest you know the way picasso painted and thats the body sometimes there is pixelation pixelation of vision uh when i wake up sometimes itll be things will just be so pixelated and then things become more solid so thats the only ones that i can kind of recall


and get stuck in location one


like even when there are like some thoughts and things happening around me and its like my my awareness my attention is more on the silence


the big one of course is you know one kind of meta emotion that feels like a combination of love and joy and compassion could be some other things mixed in there depending upon life and cultural circumstances and all of that


of increasingly merging with either the divine


emptiness


somehow to convince their system to go dual again so that they can take advantage of probably by that point where theyre at in layer three of location two to allow a switch


i dont know that it was a rising in a way that you would have answered the questions that way during this interview per se but you clearly have a penchant for you know fluidity in general you know and you were able to detect oh wait a minute im getting a little too close in the direction of location four we dont want that you know it sort of you have enough sort of presence to be able to sense that kind of thing and generally thats the kind of thing that comes from someone who is used to having some fluidity you know its kind of a situational awareness if you will within fundamental well being in the same way that ordinary people have a situational awareness in life among different circumstances and stuff like that right and so im sure that theres fluidity here for sure but at least during this interview the way you described things the way you talked about things you know id pin it mostly at location two layer three


stillness does it feel like the spaciousness contains everything or where is the spaciousness


fundamental well being


location 3


location three or possibly layer three


like a combination of impersonal or divine


it knows that its centered in your head its again part of your individualized sense of self so yeah so thats location two


but theres a sense of theres a sense of me here


it really sounds to me like you might have had a transition to the celestial uh experience of things pretty recently you know the sex stuff fits obviously and it sounds like there were probably some movements in that direction even prior to whatever the last five days or something but youve had your whole in your document its just such a divine sacred you know um you know surrendering devotional constantly merging constantly dissolving sort of feel of a layer three experience and the one thing that we have the only thing that we have potentially correlated at this point with the transition to the celestial is essentially that type of sort of devotional surrender if you will and so you fit the bill for that you know perfectly your descriptions you know the minute i see something like exalted and crystalline its just like you know nobody else ever says crystalline


yeah right not sameness in that sense right sameness in the sense of the the presence that that is experienced here right and so from a layer three standpoint theres some kind of presence and all pervasive presence theres generally that emotion or theres different layer in location three theres always that emotion


fullness


so love joy compassion


very attached to my mind


location for type of nonduality


sense of presence


personal love


actually discovered this because i was following a teacher who was saying that awareness is limitless infinite and so forth and if you extend your attention to the limits of your consciousness you cant find the limit but i can find the limit and uh its actually just this i have a sense that initially when i transitioned i had the sense that the world ended where my perceptions ended so there was nothing beyond these walls and so forth and when i explore that when i initially explored that i had the sense that there was this kind of curved limit like a sphere or like a like a disc and i also feel that if i try to go with my attention to to the limit like try to to sense the end of my consciousness or awareness or whatever


also have experience of emptiness and mean did


nonduality


its just like quiet everythings quiet its like a quiet acceptance


when we used words for it before we went to numbers we used awareness we called it the awareness layer


spaciousness


spacious


and im a separate object now you know and all of that if instead you know more or less the perceptual stuff stays the same even though that reaction is occurring in the system then you know youre basically staying in location two


it certainly sounds like most of your experience of the deeper layer stuff is layer three everything you described is sort of layer three qualities and it sounds like you can actually sink into that very easily and you know a highly fluid to that place and in addition it shifts you to location two from having a more dual sort of perception and so thats really just awesome


no emotions


sense of self often becomes larger and feels like it expands beyond the physical body


but it was not the overriding sensation thats experienced so just thought oh definitely not close to layer three where were in layer two here and thats good


layer two or and i have had like particularly in gis like a feeling of fullness almost like something thats about to burst or an excited anticipation or potential


because that home layer of perception is still layer one and so it s exactly you said exactly what i would expect you to say in terms of what pulls you out of it s just basically a snap back to layer one


fullness right


maybe a sense of freedom that simple phrase but kind of has a certain allure to it


but just sort of hold that lightly just kind of keep an eye on it sort of out of the corner of your eye you know and experiment for a while with seeing what do these deeper places in fundamental wellbeing do to those body sensations rather than bringing the putting your attention on them locking them in in sort of a heavier more focused way and bringing them along in sort of that heavier more dense way into this process that maybe doesnt allow fundamental wellbeing as you go to these more transcendent states in fundamental wellbeing to to to work more effectively on them because youre really locking them in and youre basically saying to these higher more transcendent states


i have my doubts about that one because sometimes i feel like maybe a more like a layer four but because i dont feel theres a container per se but i do describe it as sort of a bubble of perception which is a container but i cannot find really a boundary to that so it doesnt really feel like a container to me


conditioning


location 1


stay in fundamental wellbeing


describe a sense of the divine with that one


like disapproval like i noticed that i kind of had a lot of these disapproval patterns of myself and so i started noticing them more and kind of like just kind of letting them go so maybe that was a big shift and now more recently ive been noticing that there is a lot of this anxiety kind of pattern that feels like a its like a performance type anxiety or like approval type of thing and that comes up like really a lot every day yeah so yeah so thats like thats dropping me down to layer one often


do you have a sense of your identity being centered in layer one


location 3


and we still oftentimes shorthand that were trying to train ourselves not to so that well get better at using the labels publicly when were not thinking about it but we still internally will often use you know those old labels and stuff like that so yeah theres a lot of what looks like you know layer three


and four


conditioning around needing the approval of others is dissolving and may result in less social and socially desirable behavior


the flatness increases so has increased it felt like my vision was getting worse than it is but i think its just the flatness and then just just the the the i dont have the thing in front of me but if its the the the you know the quirky happenings there so oh i know what youre talking about so then seeing in the dark is that what youre referring to as well


theres a sort of draw towards it for myself feels kind of like a natural place for me just like compassion and love feel very um inherent to my being in some way


mean that when i was looking at the leaves they were of colors that id never seen and everything was a brightness and there was a everything was sparkling and shining and and this was another thing


rarely there when youre in location when youre in what you think is location two layer two that s just the default experience that s rarely the default experience that type of thing as well


high degrees of fluidity its you know they are people who have reported celestial experiences


layer three


then maybe glimpsing the layer three


because its actually not that hard to influence someone thats in location four


no agency no emotion no divine


the one that were really talking about in the slides is at the end of layer three


anxiety


spaciousness


non sensory perception of layer three that youre calling an aliveness or or vibratory quality in everything thats not localized in the body then that can be an experience of layer three


fundamental wellbeing is not about limitation


feel a joy i do feel joy and yeah lots of love lovey feelings and i do feel that theres conditioning


problems are really creating triggers and triggers are really increasing the volume so to speak or the energy that layer one has in the system


christian and islamic finders are also more likely to feel the love facet as divine love


i have the general general idea of how that works but its exactly its with love


would call divine is this presence and with that is that love and joy and compassion


can be a fullness


thats when its sort of more bubbly um more vibrant


layer one feels like there is more thoughts thoughts can be stickier like more often thoughts come up and then the mind gets like gets on that thought train and just stays there for some time and its and and also the the conditioning comes up more often for the body


fine just like some is divine some is pan psychic and location three


seeker


fullness


of just extreme wonder gratitude astonishment just feeling of being extremely blessed and kind of theres kind of a cosmic dimension to it


i had a retreat for example in just in in august where i was basically almost all of the time in awe i felt the most of the time in location three


words that kind of overlap with with layer two i can resonate resonate very well


yeah so the class or the session following the layer two session will be layer three


spacious awareness


aloneness


and then i just realized thats just because i kind of default to layer three at the moment so presumably if i moved further up i would be like maybe i can just i think thats thats just the gravity but yeah


emotion


so many people will get to like layer two or something of location two and theyll think oh


compassion


it sounds like you have a very location three like experience on the emotion side in location two


location two layer three because thats a really good place to talk to people


really just the benefits of what can be reconditioned stuff that i i guess really just blacked out or maybe just lives in in that location three zone that just right now because even right now i can feel what its sort of this slight deadness like its like just blacked out but in location three if it would come up it wouldnt have to be blocked like even the block itself of location two seems to be some sort of i dont know the thing that ive put in or some shield some protective thing that but it feels very subtle or it feels like its literally infused with the actual feeling of vocation to layer three but being in three three that that feeling itself was like i dont really need that necessarily


when i got triggered i got pulled back to layer one


its lovely and comforting and it feels like theres a pleasant weight to it theres some sense of weight and pressure but its totally pleasant


just joyous


its kind of operating from


that s like a location nine type of experience if it s not under your control then it s some fluidity in your system that actually dont have that one under control either


freedom is really big for me and i have thought when when im at layer four or whatever i could see that i would want to go on easily i could easily see that i would the path of freedom seemed like


so the benefit of going to a location three in this case might be some additional deconditioning around stuff that will decondition there that might not decondition as easily elsewhere


complete absence of emotion


right and i think youre going to see probably some continual evolution of that that will bring some more of this location for stuff


thats blending out into spaciousness


you have a very quiet nothingness and layer two for you and location two


spaciousness


funny


presence


the more im in layer three the more distracted i am


these are aspects of what is referred to as nonduality in some spiritual and religious traditions


it cant be that there is no emotion just have to look harder it can be that there is no agency but there really isnt and they might not have been for quite a while


mostly youre viewing layer one


if you think about divinity as sort of a lower vibrational form of the celestial and you think about the celestial as a potential onramp for a for a very flexible system like yours but not in its lower form not in its mid range form i mean just in its highest most pure most transcendent form and so thats what you would really want to try to find and sink into and the experience of the divine if you wanted to play around with going to the to the celestial yeah be careful of the celestial you know from a relationship standpoint and stuff though of course because like your sex drive will drop off if that matters to your husband or something


and you actually had that experience very energetically


fundamental wellbeing