davidaulloa/AmericanStories huggingface dataset:
Evening star., 1961-04-18

Bernie Horison Reviews the TV Brood
cast Of the 0scor Show. Poge BIB
Evening star., 1961-04-18
Directed Verdict
AbsoIYes Priest

DENVER. April 18 (AP).-A
directed verdict of acquittal
yesterday freed a Catholic
priest of a murder charge filed
after he killed a church burglar
Easter night.
The Right Rev. Msgr. D. A.
Lemieux, So, pastor of st.
GATHERINGS Catholic Church,
sobbed with relief after Dis
trict Judge Joseph Cook di-
rected the verdict. Later, the
priest told reporters:
Il never meant to kill him.
I aimed low and he walked
right into it. It's been a night
mare"
MSgr. LemieuX surprised two
men rifling a dresser in the
church rectory April 2 anc
fired a shotgun when they
leaped at him.
Richard E. Sanders, 81, 6
Denver ex-convict, was fatally
wounded. His companion flee
as the priest chased him, fir.
ing several shots.
The murder charge against
MSgr. LemieuX was a formality
designed to clear him of lega
responsibility.
Evening star., 1961-04-18
LOST

CAT, siamese, sealpoint, male. ! Vt.
old; vic. Springfield, Va. Reward.
FL. 4-956l.
CAT, half Persian. black, white chest
and paws, female: vic. Wayne ave.
and Manchester Td., Silver Spring.
Reward. JU. 5-4939.
DOG. black beagle: vic. Z Cornes, Va.
Ans. to "Blackie." Reward. JE'
2-6226
DOG. Irish setter, red, male; vicinity
Ashton; reward. Call WA. 4-412O.
DOG, large. black chow, without col
lar; name "DukeI Please call IA
9-74s2. -------------
DOG, terrier. small, white female. with
blk and brown patches bob tan;
Spring: reward Pc. 2-3s67.
GLASSES. lady,s. vic. 10th ST., bet.
reward OIL. 2-S479.
GLASSES. bifocal. lost on No. 80 bus
last Tuesday. April IL; reward. Ii
7-8793 eve,
LORNETTE, silver chain. crystal beads;
vic. 3lst and P NV. or E. Cap. and
18th: reward Ell. 6-3205, ewes.
PURSE-Change purse, clear, with
door key inclosed; Lincoln Park car;
reward. RA. 6-52S2.
SIAMESE CAT. male. turquoise ieweled
collar; vic. Quebec and Reno I'd. NV.
Reward. WO. 6-SS25.
WRIST WATCH, white gold, with dia-
on bus; reward JE. 3-0qO7.
WRIST WATCH, ladys: lost vic. sth
ST. Sc or Peoples Drugstore, Fri. eve.
Reward. Ii. 3-5703.
Evening star., 1961-04-18
BY WILLIAM GRIGG
Star Staff Writer

Ignoring prevailing wind pat
terms, the Air Force has posi-
toned Titan and Atlas missile
sites so that fallout from enemy
nuclear bombs hitting them
would kill residents of major
American cities, a physicist
warned here today.
DR.. James E. Mcdonald,
senior physicist of the Insti-
tute of Atmospheric Physics,
University of Arizona, said the
Air Force has ignored scien-
lists protests and engaged in
deceptive, shameful distor-
tions of physics" to sxplain
away the sites dangers.
/ DR.. Mcdonald spoke at the
42d annual meeting of the
American GeophySical Union
Sessions opened today in sever
Washington halls, with 2,00C
scientists expected.
Typically, the Air Force rings
a city with sites. Thus. Dr.
| Mcdonald said, many of the
sites are upwind of major
population areas.
He said that if the sites are
Evening star., 1961-04-18

bar coverage of retailers, laun.
dries and construction COM
panies operating within a sin
gle State, no matter their sales
volume.
Senator Monroney admitted
his amendment faces an up
hill fight" but he refused tC
concede defeat.
Although several of the Okla
homa Democrats one-time sup
porters now oppose the amend
ment, he said, some crucial
votes still were uncommitted.
IF we're beaten" he said
'it will be because of Republi-
can votes against U.S."
Backers of the administra-
tons bill were counting on 1C
or more Republican votes tc
provide the margin needed tc
defeat the Monroney amend
ment.
Evening star., 1961-04-18
BY JAMES BACON
Associated Press Movie-TV Writer

SANTA MONICA, Calf.
April 18.-"I feel weak but won-
derful," Liz Taylor sighed hap
PLY after winning her first
Oscar last night-a few months
after recovering from a brush
with death.
The beautiful star, who won
the best actress award for hel
Evening star., 1961-04-18
Missile Site Locations
Called Threat to Cities

hit by an enemy nuclear Weap-
on a lethal fallout pattern of
some 200 miles would kill the
residents of Omaha, Los An
geles, Topeka, Kansas City,
Spokane, Tucson, Salina and
Lincoln.
DR.. Mcdonald credited the
Air Force with recognizing the
problem in positioning sites
near Little Rock, Ark.
/ These sites were put north
of the city so that fallOut
would not reach Little Rock.
But, DR.. Mcdonald said, the
Little Rock sites are directly
upwind of Memphis, Tenn.
DR.. Mcdonald said ne had
sent the Air Force a list of rs
areas in the West suitable as
missile sites that had no down.
wind cities within It's miles.
"A very vigorous effort made
in Tucson by scientists, en-
gineers, lawyers, clergymen and
other citizens has so far failed
to secure a change in the Titan
deployment near Tucson. The
Air Force refused even to hold
a public hearing where weapon;
experts might answer, if they
could, the many technical OBJ
jections to the Tucson siteing
pattern
"a direct appeal to a larger
body of scientists has become
urgently necessary.
The irony of the situation is
enhanced by the realization
that Russian ICBM soon viii,
be so accurate that fixed-based
ICBMS of the Atlas or Titan
type are obsolete almost before
they are finished"
Evening star., 1961-04-18
Radio Scholarship
Is Made Available

The Foundation for Amateur
Radio, Inc, Munsey Building
1929 E street NV, has an
nounced a $3.50 electronics
scholarship to licensed radio
amateurs now in college.
Applicants must have COM
pleted one year in an ac-
credited college or university
be enrolled in a course OF
studies leading to a degree
and be planning a career in
electronics. They must also
hold FEC licenses of at least
general class rating.
Evening star., 1961-04-18
WINS ON 4th TINE UP
Liz Taylor Steals the Oscar Show

tOons, Munro" Rembrandt
Films, William L. Snyder, pro-
ducer. Live actions subjects,
Day of the Painter" Little
Movies, Kingsley Union Films,
Ezra R. Baker, producer.
Best cinematography, black
and white: Sons and Lovers, -
Company of Artists, Freddie
Francis.
Best score, musical picture
Song Without End" Goetz-
Vidor Pictures, Morris Stoloft
and Harry Sukman.
Best score, drama or COM
edy: Exodus" Carlyle -Alpina
/ S. A. Production, Ernest Gold
Evening star., 1961-04-18
South Africu' Topic
Of Visiting Novelist

Nadine Gordimor, a native
Johannesburg novelist, will
speak at 8:45 pm. tomorrow on
The Novel and the Nation:
South Africa"
The lecture, sponsored by the
Institute of Contemporary Arts,
will be held at the National
Education Association auditor
ium, 1901 Sixteenth street NV.
Evening star., 1961-04-18

caster, the award climaXed a
career that had taken him
from the New York Slums
through circus acrobatics to
movie stardom.
Miss Jones clutched her
Oscar and thanked another
Oscar-the late Oscar Ham
merstein.
1t was Mr.. Hammerstein
and Richard Rodgers who
picked the 27-year-old brew
er's daughter from Smithton,
Pa, to play the ingenue lead
in "Oklahoma!" and "Carou-
sell"
But it was her switch to the
hardboiled harlot of Elmer
Gantry" that won her the
Oscar.
Il guess it pays to be bad
on the SCREEN" she said.
Flies in From Rome
The bearded Ustinov, who
won an Oscar for his portrayal
of a gladiator school operator
in "Spartacus," flew in from
Rome to attend the cere-
monies.
I'm glad I made the trip" "
he said. Then he added: Il
attended English schools so
long I was taught how to lose
gracefully. I've been prepar-
ing myself all afternoon. Now
that I've won l don't know
what to say"
The 40 year old London
born Observation-Disclosures
author was the calmeSt of all
the nominees. Asked why, he
replied:
Il guess the others were not
at Dunkirk. Mr.. UStinov
served as a private in the
British Army during World
War II.
There were four honorary
awards. but their impact was
blunted by the fact that only
one recipient was on hand UC
receive his in person-Sol Les
ser for the Jean Hersholt
Humanitarian Honor.
Cooper and Laurel HOnOred
| Gary Cooper's long contribu
tion as screen hero was cited
but he has been ailing with
flareup of old injuries. Hi
Oscar was accepted by fellow
star James Stewart. who sal
emotionally: We're very prou,
of you, Coop. All of us ar
tremendously proud"
Stan Laurel, honored for hi
laugh-making career with tn
Evening star., 1961-04-18
FOUND

FOUND
BIKE. English type. Please call TED
JU S-lO57.
Published Daily and Sunday
al 225 virginia Ave. Sc.
az Washington, ID. c.
Second Glass Postage Paid
Evening star., 1961-04-18

late Oliver Hardy, also was un-
able to appear because of ill
ness. Danny Kaye accepted,
Hayley Mills, named for a
juvenile award for her role as
"Pollyanna," was in England.
Shirley Temple, a past holder
of the honor, presented the
award, which was accepted by
Annette Funicello.
"Spartacus" was runnerup to
Apartment" with four Oscars,
Besides two acting awards,
Elmer Gantry" also won an
Oscar for its writer, Richard
Brooks.
Swedish producer Ingemar
Bergman's The Virgin Spring
was named best foreign Ian
guage film. Another foreign
entry, the Greek comedy, Never
on Sunday" upset four do
mestic competitors to win the
best original song award with
a song of the same name.
Additional Winners
Other awards;
Best documentary: Features
The Horse With the Flying
Tail" Walt Disney. Short sub
jects, "Giuseppina," Lester A,
Schoenfeld films British.
Best special effects: The
Time Machine" MGM, Gene
Warren and Tim Baer.
Best costume design, black
and-white production: The
Facts Of Life" United Artists
Edith Head and Edward Ste
venson.
Best sound management;
The Alamo" Samuel Goldwyr
sound department, Gordon E
Sawyer.
Best short subjects: Car
Evening star., 1961-04-18
Dirksen' Plan
For Wage Bill
Voted Down
BY LEE M. COIN
Star staff Writer

The Senate today rejected a
proposal to limit minimum
wage coverage, but the crucial
test for support of the Kennedy
administration still lay ahead.
By a vote of SO to "a, the
Senate defeated Republican
Leader Dirksen's substitute
amendment for the administra-
tion's bill. Senator Dirksen
would have extended coVerage
to about IL million who now
are excluded, trimming the ad-
ministration's figure of Al
million.
The Senate later rejected a
more drastic amendment by
Senator Russell, Democrat OF
Georgia, by an identical vote OF
So to "a. Senator Russell pro-
posed to eliminate all new cov-
erage from the legislation, con-
filming the bill to raising the
minimum wage for workers
now covered to $1.15 and ther
to SIPS.
Meany Opposes Changes
AFL-CIO President George
Meany wired Senate leader;
and members of the Senate
Labor Committee, urging them
to oppose all amendments that
would scale down the admin
iStration'S bill, which he called
the irreducible minimum"
In line with the bill passed
by the House last month, the
Dirksen substitute would have
extended coverage to employees
of retail chains with five or
more stores in two or more
States.
The administration bill would
cover stores and gross annual
sales of ST million or more if
they handle $250,000 or more
of merchandise annually from
out of State-even if they op-
crate within a single State.
Before the Senate voted on
the DirkSen substitute, the Re-
publican leader accepted a
modification by Senator Nor
> ton, Republican of Kentucky
to take the dollar level of the
, , minimum wage out of the ares
of controversy and limit the
issue to coverage.
Concession Noted
= Both the administration bill
( and the modified Dirksen sub.
Stitute would raise the wage
= floor for workers now covered
a from 81 to $1.15 after foW
|. months, and to $l.25 two year!
later.
Under the administration
bill, newly covered worker.
would start at 81 an hour anC
rise to $1.25 in three additiona
annual steps. The origina
Drksen substitute would hav,
| started them at $1.O5 anC
! raised them gradually to $l.25
This concession by Senate
DirkSen was significant in ligh
of indications last year tha
r President Eisenhower woult
have vetoed legislation raisinI
the minimum wage above Sl.15
The House bill would rails
workers now covered to Sl.l,
: and would give newly covered
: workers a wage floor Of 81.
q The Senate was scheduled Il
vote later today or tomorrow
on an amendment by Senate
4 Monroney, Democrat of Okla
homa, to extend coverage Il
about "a million workers. TIL
Monroney amendment woult
Evening star., 1961-04-18

PLY after winning her first
Oscar last night-a few months
after recovering from a brush
with death.
The beautiful star, who won
the best actress award for hel
Bernie Horrison Reviews the TV Brood.
cast Of the 0scor Show. Page B-l:
role as the girl-about-toWn il
"Butterfield g." nearly tainted
twice during the Commute
Academy Awards show.
But she told newsmen: I'm
going to the party. too. ]
wouldn't miss it."
Miss Taylor nominated four
straight years for the movies
big award, stole the 33d an
nual Oscar show from the other
winners-Burt Lancaster, best
actor; Shirley Jones, best sup
porting actress, and Peter
Ustinov, best supporting actor
THE Apartment" won five
awards, including best picture
and best direction Cby Billy
Wilder.
Cuts Her Posing Short
All the winners posed back
stage for photographers, but
Liz got weak in the knees anC
had to cut her posing short
Accompanied by husband Ed
die Fisher and her doctor, she
swayed shakily toward an oper
door. The fresh air revived hel
quickly, and she was all smiles
again.
Earlier, on her arrival, she
had to rest Is minutes before
entering the Santa Monica
Civic Auditorium. The show
telecast over ABC-TV, was vel
under way before she was ablC
to make it to her seat.
That's the longest Ivt
walked since my Illness" sht
told a reporter. MY knees go
all Shaky. like they were made
of water"
Her beautiful green Dio
gown covered a leg still band
aged from antibiotic shots givel
her two months ago during he
nearly fatal battle with pneu
monia.
When her name was callet
for the Oscar, Liz put her hand
over her face in surprise, kisse,
her husband and then wake,
slowly, with his help, to tn
podium.
Il don't really know how t
express my great gratitude,
she said with emotion. Il gues
will just have to thank 70
with all my heart"
Lancaster Thanks Everybody
Mr.. Lancaster, the hell-firin
revivalist of Elmer Gantry,
told a cheering audience:
"I want to thank, all tn
members of the Academy VIII
voted for me. And I am
happy that I also want to than
all the members who didn
vote for me-
For the 47-year-old Lar
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-10-02
HELP WOMEN

HAGGERTY EMPL.
DIS Ellsworth Dr., S. S, JU. s-6464
COLORIST, experienced in light
ana heavy oils. Apply in person
to HARRIS g. EWING STUDIO.
1904 g st. NV.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-10-02
TOOLS

Sledges. So; rakes, 81; hoes, 81. SIS;
5-gal. cans, Sl.50; dropclothes,
$3.50: saws, 81 As; hammers. soc;
blocks. falls. ropes. chains, chisels,
planes, motors; bunk beds, Sl2;
axe. S2.15; paint. S1.59; hand
saws, Sl.45; 10O-ft. tapes, S3.95;
snow shovelS, 81; f-man saws,
$3.50; 6xS tarps, $3.50; 1OxI3
tarps, Sl0;SO; wedges. soc: Drop
lights, S1.35; saw blades. Sl.25;
used tarps. &c it.; steel shelving,
cable, air compressors, welders,
pumps; picks, 81.
J. H. GICHNER
2513 N ST. NV. FE. 3-634S
TIRES. TRUCK, used, from SS95,
Specialists on foreign and COM
pacts. CITY TIRE CO., DE. 2-2I37.
TIRES (2), 7.5Oxl4, white side.
walls; used less than 1000 miles:
excellent buy. Pc. 2-5753.
TIRE SALE, full recaps, $685. for
any size eXch snow treadS now
only So more. ALL-SERVICE TIRE
CO., 1924 Ga. ave, RA. 6-9s5O.
25s
TOP SOIL, from bayfield,, SIS per
. to 6 yard load. SO. s-450Og
TROMBONE, King, Liberty model
2-B, silver and gold, in good
condition; best offer. JU. S-2S6O.
TV, Philco, 81. u in, remote
control. table model; sac. for ball
ance.. LA. 9-2045.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-10-02
SILVER

Due to sudden trip am
forced to sell following items
in silver: 925 cutlery set
for T., serving bowls, set
of IL dessert cups with tray.
2 pheasants, tea service
with tray. Can be seen
Sunday through Tuesday at
1900 Reno I'd. NV. 'rele-
phone EN-. 3-0446.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-10-02

FURNITURE
MON. 9 Am. TO 8 Pm.
TUES. 8 Am. TO 8 PM.
SPECIAL SOILED AND
DENT SALE-Large Wash
ington furniture company
will accept special ap-
pointments for people in
terested in saving money
on slightly Soiled mer-
chandiSe. These items
have been displayed on
our showroom floors, for a
few months, and now we
must sell them at big saw
nigs to the customer. Call
DE. 2-2764 for immediate
appointment.
JUST TAKE THESE
FOR EXAMPLE:
100" Sofa, gorgeous beige
fabric, foam rubber zip
pered cushions, and hard
wood construction ---$139
Matching chair $50
Outstanding Ape. bedrm.
suite, butternut finish,
large double dresser, large
chest, bookcase bed -$149
occasional chairs as
low as ---- $40
Fabulous selection of
French Provincial dining
room suites as much as
500 off.
Everything will be sold at a
discount.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-10-02
STAR RIA
MISCELLANEOUS FOR SALE

LAWN MOWERS-Wh,le they last.
New 1861 Lawn Boys. 2l-in. de
luxe, c.ose-out price, S69.5O ga.
DEWEY HARDWARE, 4756 Lee
hwy. and Glebe I'd, N. ArL., Va.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16
Kennedy Plans Order
To End Identical Bids

Economic Committee, asked
the President to issue the ex-
ecutive order.
Senator Douglas said the
aim is to ''let the white light
of publicity beat down" on price
rigging on Government con-
tracts.
Mr.. Patman said this was
bound to stop identical bid
ding in its tracks"
The Texas Congressman
estimated that real competitive
bidding on Government pur-
chases would save the tax
payers at least 10 per cent on
what the Government has been
spending for its purchases.
THE savings would run into
billions" he added.
Senator Douglas said there
also is "a collusive pricing sys-
tenn" for many things the pub
lie buys. He predicted that
ending identical bidding on
Government purchases would
also result in lower prices to
consumers generally.
Mr.. Patman told reporters
at the White House that the
President had authorized him
See BIDDING, Page AS
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16
sF1INWELL PROTESTS
D. C. Dinner Bored Him

And as for me talking about
the church in Alabama, I've
never been there, so how
could ~"
And don't see how he
could say that about Mrs
Dun" she added. "She is any
thing but a bore at any time
She is a very charming person"
In Washington. Bishop Dun
laughed at the Shinwen story
and commented:
II would say that the gentle
man must have been in a very
bad humor If he didn't find my
wife very charming. 1t sounded
as If he was very tired"
Mr.. Shinwell was speaking
during a debate on a govern
ment request for $4,000 pounds
$98,000) additional for gov
eminent hospitality. He didn't
object to voting the extra money
just to the manner in which
such hospitality is dispensed
1.-THE people usually invited, =
he said, ARE usually pluto
cratic or aristocratic aonenti-
ties or members of the civil
service. 80
IT object to- civil servants
having free meals. They should
be issued with luncheon vouch-
ers rather than invitations tc
these dinners" =,
He said he's also fed ur
with slipping the sherry usually
served at such functions.
MY tastes run in a more
spirited direction" he declared
The House approved the ap.
preparation.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16
Joe KeW's
Bowie Selections
and Earlier Results,
Page A-l6
Production Rise
Hints Recession
Is Near Bottom

The six-month. unbroken
drop in industrial production
was halted in February, the
Federal ReserRe Board an
nounced today. The board cited
other ecpfiornic developments
suggesting thai the business
recession lis approaching - or
has arfived at-its bottom.
At lO2per cent, Of the 1857
average, the output OF mines,
mills and, materials /. sfat
below TIA asysls pff JahT
1857 &Serag ebtita veg Gadn-
changes from 4AEuarys 1861
The 7board's monthly ma
tional summary !, of business
conditions said.
Industrial production was
unchanged in February. Nom
agricultural employment, de-
clined. but the rate Of unern-
ployment remained at about
the DecemPerAJ January level.
Retail sales advanced. Com
mercial bank, credit and the
money SUPPLY Increased. t4,s
Between mid February and
mid March, com mon stock
prices rose on balance"
The bright spots in the pro-
duction picture included in
creased output Of iron and
steel. However, production OF
auto parts, building materials
and some other durable ma
lterials continued ito decline.
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16
BY GARRETT ID. HORNER
Star Staff Writer

President Kennedy decided
today to issue an executive Or
der designed to end identical
bidding on Government pur-
chaseS.
Representative Pain an
Democrat of Texas, chairman
of the Senate House Joint Eco
nomic Committee, predicted
that the action would save tax
payers billions of dollars year.
The forthcoming executive
order will direct all Federal
agencies to file promptly with
the Attorney General any iden-
teal bids they receive on
everything from pencils and
typewriters to big bombers. 1t
will direct the Attorney Cen
eral to make such bids public.
The move appeared to be a
direct outgrowth of the con-
victions the Government re-
Gently won against several
electrical companies and a
number of their officials on COL
lusive bidding charges.
Mr.. Patman and Senator
Douglas, Democrat of Illinois,
vice chairman of the Joint
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16
Job|ess Fight
Set in Senate
Kennedy to Bottle
Byrd's Substitute
By J. A. O'LEARY
Star Staff Writer

The Kennedy administration
decided today to make an all
out fight in the Senate for the
House version of the emer-
gency unemployment compensa-
ton bill, which would raise new
taxes to help jobless workers
without regard to State lines.
Senate Democratic Leader
Mansfield said this means ad-
ministration supporters will try
to reverse the decision Of the
Senate Finance Committee yes
terday, under which each State
would have to meet its own
share of the cost of extending
the duration of unemployment
benefits.
Senator Mansfield made the
announcement after hurried con-
ferenceS this morning with
Labor Secretary Goldberg and
Lawrence O'Brien, chief liaison
man between the White House
and Capitol Hill.
The administration appears
to face an uphill fight, since
the committee voted, II to Q
for the substitute, and Republic
can Leader Dirksen of Illinois
said Republicans generally will
support the committee. The
substitute was offered by
Chairman Harry F. Byrd, Dem
ocrat, of Virginia.
AFL-CIO President George
Meany wired all Senators to-
day urging them~to reject the
See JOBLESS, Page Az
Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, 1961-03-16

LONDON, Mar. 16 (AP).-
Veteran Laborite Legislator
Emanuel NANNY Shinwell
says he won't be going to any
more public lunches or dinners
because they always seat him
between "utter bores."
And that apparently includes
Mrs. Harry Truman and the
wife of the Bishop Of Wash
ington. .s.sv.g;g
Mr.. Shinwell, "a former De-
Tense Minister, told the House
OF Commons last night that if
he is asked to any more gov
ernment receptions. lunches or
dinners, he will throw the in
vitations into his wastepaper
basket
4 SeThey are usually a poor
show. One finds oneself neigh
bored on both sides by people
who are utter bores,'" he de-
clared.
Mr.. Shinwell cited a dinner
he attended at the British En-
bassy in Washington (date un-
specified.
"On my Left he said, was
Mrs. Truman and on my right
was the wife Of the Bishop Of
Washington. When I engaged
in conversation with Mrs. Tru-
man, all she could talk about
was the church in Ala
bama (sic).
After awhile / thought the
other side might be more in
teresting. Members can mag.
inc the nature Of that con-
veSation.