davidaulloa/AmericanStories huggingface dataset:
Evening star., 1954-04-27
UnoItered Photograph
Admitted by Chairman

Senator Mundt-The chair
would certainly feel that your
point of order was approprl-
ate, and the original. undoc-
tored and unaltered picture
will be entered as evidence.
Mr.. JenkinS-Mr. Chairman,
may I say this: That the orig
inal photograph which was
presented to the Secretary
yesterday on cross-examina-
ton is the identical photo
graph that was furnished me
by one of the parties in inter-
est in this case, and I might
say an adverse party of in
terest to Mr.. Stevens, as being
the genuine, authentic photo
graph, with no intimation or
insinuation that it had been
cut down or that any other
person photographed had been
taken out of it. I presented it
in good faith. as authentic evil
dence.
I just wanted my position
clear.
Senator Mcclellan - Mr..
Chairman, I don't want to be
unduly technical, but this last
picture has not properly been
adduced in evidence. There has
been no one testified and the
counsel for the Army has
made a statement that it is
authentic and genuine, but
there is no evidence that it is
the original and it is gen.
uine.
It may appear so, but I
think if we want to carry
these proceedings as we are
undertaking to, properly, evi-
dence should be introduced be-
fore the picture is made a
part of the record.
Mr.. JenkinS-It is certainly a
matter that may be brought
out by Mr.. Welch on cross-ex-
animation. / agree with Sem
ator Mcclellan entirely.
Mr.. Welch-I think perhaps
members
Senator Mccarthy agree
with Senator Mcclellan, and
/ think we should have the
third man identified, and we
should have Mr.. Welch sworn
and have him tell how the pic
ture has been doctored, if it
has been doctored. I am Gu
riouS to know how. I think
the fact that there is a third
man in here, if this is an ac-
curate picture-and I assume
it iS-the third man should be
identified. e
Again, Mr.. Chairman, I sug-
geSt that Mr.. WEIGH. if he is
going to make charges such as
he has, should be put under
oath and tell how this was
doctored. and who doctored it.
Mr.. Jenkins-Again say,
Mr.. Chairman. those are mat
ters that Senator Mccarthy
may likewise bringf1 out on
croSS-examination.
Evening star., 1954-04-27

take care OF the matter being
introduced in sworn teSti-
mony, and SO we will defer it
until such time as the COM
mittee calls the photographer
or some one who. can testify
under oath.
Mr.. Welcn-One more word,
Mr.. Chairman
Senator Mccarthy - Mr..
Chairman
Mr.. Welch-Of course, i'm
menSe speed was required to.
prove or get the evidence that
we now have in this court
room, and the picture that I
produced is. scarcely dry, and
it was not in my power as a
lawyer to get ali of the proof
ready to offer this morning, as
I would have liked to do.
Senator Mundt-I am sure,
Mr.. WEIGH. that the committee
will be in session for at least
the rest of the week, and we
will have an opportunity to
take care of that.
Sena tor McCarthy-Mr.
Chairman "a point of order,
Mr.. Chairman. May I have
that picture?
Mr.. Chairman, Mr.. Welch
has made the statement under
the guise of being a point of
order that this picture was
doctored, and I look at it now
and I don't have the other
picture before me. May l
have it?
Mr.. Welch-This is the doc
tored picture.
Senator McCarthy-I think,
Mr.. Chairman. when counsel
for Mr.. Adams and Mr.. Stew
ems and Mr.. HenSel--
Senator Mccarthy - Mr..
Chairman, couldn't we have
an understanding here that
when I start to make a point
of order that I may finish
without interruption.
Senator Mundt-Make
point of order and then speak
to it.
Senator Mccarthy - The
point of order is this: That
Mr.. WEIGH, under the guise of
making point of order, has
testified that a picture is doc
tored. I now have before me,
and I may say this: Yester-
day was the first tire I saw
either of these pictures, the
picture that was introduced
yesterday and the one Mr..
Welch puts in today, and he
makes the completely false
statement that this is a group
picture, and it is not.
Senator Mundt-Counsel ad-
vises the chair, may I say.
Senator McCarthy-May I
finish my point of order?
Senator Mundt - Counsel
advises the chair that the
Senator is engaging in a state
ment or croSS-examination
rather than a point of order.
Evening star., 1954-04-27
official Photographer
At AirboSe Summoned

Senator Mundt-Very well.
The point of order certainly
has been sustained as point.
and, Mr.. WEIGH, your picture
is now before us, along with
the one which you allege is
doctored. In croSs-examina-
ton and in sworn testimony.
we should be able to determine
the correct situation concern
ing the picture.
May we proceed. then. Do
you wish to be heard further
on the point of order?
Mr.. Welch-No. think the
official photographer
Senator Symington-Let the
counsel answer the question.
Mr.. Welch-The official pho
tographer at the Mcguire Air
Force Base who took the pic
ture that l just produced has
been sent for, or is now being
sent for. and he will testify to
the facts that I have called to
attention of this committee.
SeAtor Mundt-That will
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Senator Mccarthy Sick
OF Being Interrupted

Senator Mccarthy am
getting rather sick of being
interrupted in the midle of a
sentence
Senator Symington-I would
like to say if this is not a
point of order, it is out of
order. The counsel says it is
not a point of order and it is
not a point of order, if the
counsel says it is not a point
of order.
Senator McCarthy-Oh, be
quiet.
Senator Symington - I
haven't the slightest intention
of being quiet. Counsel is run
ming this committee and you
are not running it.
Senator Mccarthy = Mr..
chairman. do I have the floor?
Senator Mundt-The chair
has the floor, and nobody is
endeavoring to determine
whether or not Senator Nc
Carthy is speaking to a point
of order.
Will you state your point of
order and then speak to it?
Senator Mccarthy Mr..
chairman. may I suggest that
when I start to say something,
will not be interrupted in the
middle of a sentence. and that
Mr.. Symington and no one else
have the right to interrupt un-
less they address the chair,
and unless the chair recognizes
them. I am getting awfully
sick of sitting down here at the
end of the table and having
whoever wants to interrupt in
the middle of a sentence.
Now. Mr.. Welch made a
statement and ! raised a point
of oraer that 1t was not a
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Stevens Is Urged
To Discuss Carr

senator MunQC - In all
events. Mr.. Carr has been
charged in this presentation
with some very serious misbe-
havior.
Secretary Stevens-That is
correct
Senator Mundt ~ I think
that you owe it to the COM
mittee and to Mr.. Carr. either
to say that insofar as your
own personal knowledge is
concerned you absolve him of
charges Of improper treat
ment, or that you specify the
way and the time in which
he was improper.
Mr., Cohn -, Mr.. Stevens.
there is one matter that con-
Germs me very deeply here,
and that Is the matter of
Frank Carr. was one of
those who, I might tell you,
attempted to persuade him to
give up one Of the top jobs in
the Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation to come with our
committee. and now in the
specifications filed by the
Army. there is a charge that
improper means were used to
get preferential treatment for
Mr.. Schine by Mr.. Frank Carr
on October 2, 1858, in that
Mr.. Carr on that date, and
I quote:
Sought to induce or per-
suade the Secretary of the
Army to give Schine some
kind of special assignment
and some kind of special
treatment"
Now. is that charge made by
you true or is it false? I think
in justice to Mr.. Carr that
should be acknowledged at
this time.
Secretary Stevens-Mr. Carr
was not nearly as active in
that conversation as you were,
but he was there, and in my
opinion took a lesser part in it.
Mr.. Cohn-Mr. Stevens, will
you tell Senator Mundt, please
sir, and the committee. any
one word that was spoken by
Frank Carr about Dave Schine
on that day?
Secretary Stevens-I can't
recall the exact words.
Mr.. Cohn DO you recall
that any words were spoken
by him about Dave Schine on
that date?
Secretary Stevens Il recall
that he. in a minor way,
backed you up in connection
with the statements you were
making.
Mr.. Cohn-Sir, I am trying
to ask now whether Mr.. Carr
played any part, and if he did
I would like you to tell the
committee just what part he
did play.
Senator Mundt - The chair
believes in fairness to all of
the questioners, and it is per-
fectly proper that the witness
have time to consult notes
and counsel.
Senator Mccarthy - While
Mr.. Stevens is consulting his
notes. may 1 explain to the
chair that I was absent for a
number of minutes here be-
cause I was interviewing a
witness whom / think will
have information of tremen-
dous Importance to this COM
mittee, and I am seeing him
again tonight and I will give
Evening star., 1954-04-27

you, and that IS. from time to
time you offered up q digger
bait even than David Schine
to this committee to let you
alone, to wit, the Air Force or
the Navy. it being alleged that
you tried to divert this COM
mittee from the Army to the
Air Force or the Navy. What
do you say about that charge?
Secretary Stevens-I say it
is an uneQuivocal lie.
Mr.. Jenkins-I believe you
have admitted that you did try
to prevail upon the committee
to suspend the operations as
far as the investigation of
Fort Monmouth is concerned.
Secretary Stevens-I wanted
to change the type of hear
ing. As far as the investiga-
ton was concerned, 1t could
60 right along.
Mr.. JenkinS-This is from
the record Of April %: Cues
ton: NOW you were telling
about a statement you made
to the effect that If this thing
continued and these headlines
were emblazoned upon the
front page of the papers, it
would drive you out Of Office"
I believe you admitted that.
Here is the answer you gave:
II said that it could; that
such a thing could happen.
And Senator Mccarthy said
that that was not his inten-
tion. We discussed further the
question of how to handle this
Fort Monmouth situation.
Senator Mccarthy then said
that he was planning to look
into some situations in indus
trial plants. and I stated that
the Army and in fact the
whole Defense Department was
very much interested in that
subject and had problems con-
nected with it,"
I will ask you; wasn't that,
Mr.. Stevens, an invitation on
your part
Secretary Stevens-It was
not.
Mr.. Jenkins-Wait. I haven't
finished.
to seek to divert Senator
Mccarthy and his staff from
the Army to industrial plants
and other phases not con-
nected with the Army?
Wasn't that there your inten-
ton when you stated that?
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Transcript Details
Wrang|e at Hearing
About Substitute

FOLLOWING is the transcript
of highightS of todGy'S session
of the hearing:
Senator Mundt-The Com
mittee will please come to
order. We left off yesterday
afternoon with Senator jack
son about to interrogate the
witness, and the understand
ing was we were to resume at
the point at which we left off.
Senator Mundt-The chair
recognizes Senator Jackson.
Mr.. Welch-Mr. Chairman, I
don't know what it is, but it
is a point of something.
Senator Mundt-If it is a
point of order, you may state
it.
Mr.. Welch-My point of
order is that Mr.. jenkins yes
terday was imposed upon. and
so was the Secretary of the
Army, by having a doctored
or altered photograph pro-
duced in this courtroom as if
1t were honest.
Senator Mundt-This is a
committee room.
Mr.. Welch-And produced as
If it were honest. I have the
photograph that was offered
yesterday in evidence. and in
respect to which Mr.. Stevens
was not only examined but
crosS-examined.
I show you now a photo
graph in respect of which I
charge that what was offered
in evidence yesterday was an
altered, shamefully cut-down
picture, so that somebody
could say to Stevens, Were
you not photographed alone
with David Schine?" when the
truth is he was photographed
in a group.
Mr.. Jenkins, I would like to
say with all of my power,
sir, I know you would never
participate in a trick like
this, but suggest to you that
you were imposed upon.
would like now to offer the
picture that I have in my
right hand as the original,
undoctored, unaltered piece of
evidence.
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Parties Should Stote Thot
Under Oath, Says Mundt

Senator Mundt-No. that is
something that will be done
under oath by the parties in
interest. 1t is not a function
of the chair to determine
which picture is correct.
Senator Jackson-A point of
order. Mr.. Chairman. Do ]
understand that there will be
witnesses called to testify
under taath to identify the
Evening star., 1954-04-27

ment on behalf of Pvt. Schine?
Secretary Stevens = Well,
Senator Potter, I have searched
my memory, and my con-
science, and I have also talked
with Mr.. Adams woh is to be
a witness hhere, and if the
only evidence in respect to Mr..
Carr was the happenings of
October 2, and if I were his
judges, as you are, I would
acquit him. But there is more
evidence to come, and I think
that his fate must await the
end of the case when all of the
evidence is in.
Senator Potter-I am sorry,
are you through?
Secretary Stevens-Mr. Carr
telephoned Mr.. Adams in re-
spect to Schine on many occaS-
ions.
Senator Mccarthy Mr..
Chairman, a point of order.
Mr.. Stevens is being ques-
toned about a conversation
which Mr.. Adams was not
present, and his testimony on
that has been completely con-
Trajectory, and I make a point
of order that in order to
bolster that contradictory tes-
timony, he cannot quote what
Mr.. Adams has told him about
other conversations; and, Mr..
Chairman, the further point of
order is that his answer is not
responsive.
Mr.. Potter was asking him
about a specific conversation,
on October 2, and I think Mr..
jenkins is correct if one of
his subordinateS could aid him
in answering that question,
good. But no subordinate was
present and no subordinate
knows anything about that
conversation, and either Mr..
Stevens is telling the truth
when the bill of particulars
was made out-and I assume
he didn't make it himself
or he was telling the truth
the other day IN answer to
Mr.. Jenkins question.
Mr.. Jenkins-May I ask for
my guidance, that the ques-
ton and the answer be read.
by the reporter? Frankly, 1
was talking to Senator jack
son and did not hear it.
Senator Mundt-The chair
will ask the reporter to read
the question and the answer so
that we may determine whether
the point or order stands.
Senator Potter-I assume
that you will instruct the time
keeper that this doesn't come
out of my 10 minutes.
(Whereupon. the reporter
read the questions and an
SwerS as above recordedD
Mr.. Jenkins must in all
good conscience reverse my
self, Mr.. Chairman. The an
swer to that question does not
reflect upon the conduct of the
Secretary of the. Army, and he
was being specifically ques-
toned as to whether or not he,
the witness now, had any
knowledge of any statement
made to him by Mr.. Carr. and
he says that he has none, and
he goes further and he says
there are other witnesses.
I think the Secretary is
entirely correct in his state
ment that at this time this
committee should not exoner-
ate or render a verdict of not
guilty against Mr.. Carr be-
cause all of the proof is not
in and this committee can
not necessarily judge the guilt
or innocence of any party. so
to speak, until all of the proof
is in.
I reiterate I do not think
it proper in view of the specific
inquiry, and the bounds to
which is it confined, for the
Secretary in answer to Sena-
tor Potter's question to state
what other people know about
Mr.. Carr because those other
people are present and avail
able as witnesses.
Senator Mundt-On the ad-
vice of counsel, therefore, the
chair will uphold the point of
order raised by Senator Nc
Corthy
Evening star., 1954-04-27
jenkins Says Statements
Should Be Offered as Proof

Mr.. JenkinS-I am sorry to
interrupt the Senator from
Wisconsin,. I agree with the
Senator from Wisconsin that
Mr.. WEIGH did not make
point of order, and I further
maze the statement that the
Senator from Wisconsin is not
making a point of order; both
of those gentlemen were max
ing positive statements of facts
which properly come under
the head of proof and should
be properly made by those
gentlemen or their witnesses
under oath, and think that
that should be made perfect
ly clear to both Mr.. WEIGH
and Senator Mccarthy, and
that we should now proceed
with the testimony OF Mr..
Stevens.
Senator Mccarthy - Mr..
Chairman
Senator Mundt-The chair
has ihe floor, I am sorry. And
the chair has already ruled
that the testimony on the
photograph should be given to
us under oath. and Mr. WEIGH
has been advised of that, and
you have been advised of that,
and all parties will have an
opportunity to bring in wit
nesses and to testify under
oath on the whole allegations
about the photograph, the
original, whether it was doc
tored or not.
So that there is no point of
order involved, and counsel
has pointed out both Mr..
Welch's statement and the
statement of Senator McCar-
thy are a bot out of order, but
the situation is a bit unusual.
and consequently we have
simply ruled that all testimony
on the picture will be given
under oath.
Senator Mccarthy - Mr..
Chairman
Senator Mundt-Do you
have a point of order?
Senator McCarthy-Call it
a point of order or call it
what you may. when counsel
for Mr.. Stevens. and Mr.. Hen
sci. and Mr.. Adams makes a
statement and he is allowed
to do it without interruption.
and if that statement is false.
do I have a right to correct
it, or do we find halfway
through my statement that
Mr.. Welch should not have
made his statement and there
fore cannot point out that
he was lying?
I think that is an important
question.
Senator Mundt-The chair
has made the statement, and
neither statement is under
oath. and each of you will
have an opportunity to testify
under oath on the matter in
hand.
Senator Mccarthy - Just
one more question. Mr.. Chair
man. Would not it be proper
for the chairman at this time
to point out for the record
the difference between the two
pictures submitted?
Evening star., 1954-04-27

Photographic circumstances
with reference to both pictures,
the one introduced yesterday
and the one introduced today?
Senator Mundt-There are
witnesses available, I believe.
Senator Jackson-I believe
that is an appropriate point
of order.
Senator Mundt-They will
be called and they will be sub
ject to cross-examination.
Senator JackSon-Now may
I turn for a moment to some
of the questions of yesterday
with reference to Mr.. Carr.
AS I understand it, your
counsel. Mr.. Welsh. submitted
a statement of allegations.
Secretary Stevens-That is
right.
Senator Jackson-Alleging a
number of charges or making
a number of charges. Are
those charges being made by
you and Mr.. Adams and any
one else? Who is competent
to testify as to the allegations
contained in counsel's state
ment? That is in addition to
Mr.. Stevens, who have knoWl-
adge of the events that are al
legged to have taken place in
connection with those allega-
tionS?
Mr.. Welch-Mr. Chairman,
I observe the Senator is look
ing at me.
Senator Mundt-You are not
a witness and you cannot tes-
tify; you may raise point of
order.
Mr.. Welch-If the inquiry
was directed at me, I will an
swer and not otherwise.
Senator Mundt-The chair
does not construe the counsel
has become a witness.
Senator Jacksonville point
is that the allegations are
signed by the counsel.
Senator McCarthy-A point
of order.
Senator Mundt-I thing the
Secretary has to answer the
question, he is the only wit
ness who has been sworn.
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Features of Yesterdays
Testimony at Heorinq

Following is the transcript of
the high lights OF yesterday
afternoons hearings on the
Arny-McCGrthy controversy
Committee Counsel Ray H.
jenkins - One other serious
charge has been made against
Evening star., 1954-04-27

proper point of order that he
raised, and that he said this
picture was doctored. and may
I suggest to the chair as
point of order in fairness to
Mr.. Jenkins, or whoever pro-
duced the picture was doctored.
I can see no doctoring, ex-
cept that a Col. Bradley, who
will be a witness here. his
picture was not included. When
Mr. Welch under the guise
of a point of order said this
was a group picture, I suggest
that the chair make the record
clear that Mr.. WEIGH was not
speaking the truth, and that
the OnlV change
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Nee Corthy Interrupts
To Ask Question

Secretary Stevens-I say in
a very minor way.
Senator McCarthy-May l
interrupt. Mr.. Cohn? -,
Do understand that you
mean he backed him up by
silence or backed him up by
conversation and if he backed
him up by conversation then
let us have the conversation.
Secretary Stevens - Well,
first of all, he did nothing to
stop the conversation.
Senator Mccarthy - All
right, now we have silence.
From there let us go on.
Secretary Stevens-And sec
ondly. Mr.. Cohn did most of
the talking, as the chronology
indicates. but Mr.. Carr. in my
recollection, also in lesser
way. a far lesser way, brought
up the same Cnlng.
Senator Mccarthy - Look.
Bob, you are accusing Frank
Carr Of something very
serious.
Secretary Stevens-That is
right.
Senator McCarthy-You say
that he tried to improperly in
f1uence you. Now, If he said
something that was improper.
we should know what he said.
If he didn't say anything i'm
proper, and if you can't re-
member anything improper,
then you should tell us. Let
me say this: I think that you
are trying to give us an honest
account.
Secretary Stevens-That is
right.
Senator McCarthy-Some Of
my friends don't agree with
CQaC, 1 may say.
Mr.. Cohn-I am not one Of
those, Senator.
Senator McCarthy-I think
it is only fair to ask of you to
tell us what Frank Carr did
that was improper.
Secretary Stevens - Well
Senator Mccarthy - What
you are doing here, Bob, you
are asking a young man to be
discharged from his job be-
cause of improper conduct.
And you can't tell us what it is.
Secretary Stevens Well.
Senator, the Department of
the Army has put in this bill
of particulars, and I think that
there will be other material
that will come before the COM
mittee that will bear on this.
Senator Mcclellan - To get
this back in proper perspective.
I have listened to this testi-
mony and, according to my
recollection of it there are some
eight specific requests and diff
ferent requests, requests of a
different nature, for preferred
treatment for Mr.. Schine.
The fifth, have here ! believe,
was to be assigned to New
York or assigned to West Point
to check the textbooks at West
Point with respect to any Com
munist propaganda in them:
is that correct?
Secretary Stevens-Yes, sir.
Evening star., 1954-04-27

relatively inactive part in the
whole situation that we are
discussing SO far as my per-
Sonal knowledge is concerned.
Evening star., 1954-04-27
Stevens Limits knowledge
OF Cars Statements

Senator Jackson-Now. as I
understand it from your testi-
mony yesterday, you have no
direct knowledge of any state
ments that Mr.. Carr made di-
rect]y about any of the ale
cations contained in the state
ment of complaint filed by Mr..
Welch.
Secretary Stevens - Only to
the extent that where I was
involved. Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson-But, as I
understand it. Mr.. Carr was
present at these various meet
ingS. and I believe your testi-
mony yesterday was OF the ef-
feet that you had an impress
sion originally that he may
have commented on certain re-
quests made by Mr.. Cohn or
Senator Mccarthy. but that
you had no direct recollection
of any specific requests or
statements that Mr.. Carr made.
Secretary Stevens-That is
correct.
Senator Jackson-Now, do I
understand. or do you know, if
you can so testify, whether Mr..
Adams has that information?
You see the statement of al
legations from the Army, and
I cannot tell from the state
ment of allegations as to who
is informed on these specific
charges, whether it is you or
Mr.. Adams.
Senator Potter-Mr. Secre-
tary, during the questioning
yesterday concerning your al
legations toward Mr.. Carr,
believe you stated that you
had no recollection of any,
thing that Mr.. Carr said at
that meeting, and I believe it
was November 6, is that cor
rect?
Secretary Stevens - Octo-
ber 2.
Senator Potter-October 2?
Secretary StevenS-YeS.
Senator Potter-Has your
memory been refreshed since
the meeting yesterday con-
corning any positive activity
on the part of Mr.. Carr at that
meeting. which would cause
yop to include him as one Of
TT participants in the alleged