Evening star., 1951-03-20

|Forgets Details
|0f Butler Role
Admits He Talked
With Fellow Employees
About Testimony
By w. H. Shippen

An employe of Senator Nc
Carthy's Office was grilled sharply
for more than an hour today over
his inability to recall the precise
details of his participation in the
Butler campaign in Maryland last
November.
Ray Kiermas. who said he is in
charge of the "voluminous mail"
in the Office of the Wisconsin Re
publican, was also questioned at
length as to with whom he dis
|cussed his testimony prior to TAX
ing the stand.
The witness recalled these per-
sons as Senator Mccarthy and
several others who were employees
of the Senator at the time of the
campaign, including Don Surine,
Jean Kerr and EWell Moore.
Mr.. KiermaS also remembered
that he went over his testimony
last Sunday with Ralph Becker.
Mr.. Moore and Mr.. Surine at the
home Of Mr.. Becker. who is mi
nority counsel for the investiga-
tors.
Pressed for Details.
Mr.. Kiermas explained to the
subcommittee that his part in the
campaign was a small one which
consisted of arranging with Will
liam Fedder, Baltimore printer.
for the last-minute distribution Of
Butler postcards.
Pressed as to details like time,
place and persons present on va
Irious occasions, Mr.. Kiermas fell
back often on answer like Il don't
recall"
Senator Smith of Maine, one of
two Republicans on the four
member subcommittee, asked the
witness:
Have you been advised of the
legal aspects and penalties of per-
Ijury?"
"Yes," the witness replied.
Were you advised as to the
aspects of replies like Maybe so.
I don't recall and I cannot re-
MEMBER" Senator Smith asked.
mo"
The witness explained that, "Of
course if you don't know, you
don't remember"
The reply was accompanied by
laughter in the crowded caucus
room.
did you get together with other
prospective witnesses to co-ordi-
nate your testimony" Senator
Smith asked.
Questioned on Meaning.
Mr.. Kiermas replied that he did
not get together with the wit
nesses in the sense that they COM
pared their testimony so that it
would be in conformity.
Senator Hendrickson, Republi-
can. of New Jersey asked if the
witness meant that Mr.. Becker.
the Republican counsel, had ad-
vised him to say he could not
remember to two questions which
he merely could not answer for
lack of personal knowledge.
The witness replied in the
negative.
He explained he had never ap-
peared in court and that the
questions put to him today were
somewhat confusing.
Exactly what were you advised
to answer to questions when you
could not remember" Mr.. Kier-
mas was asked. He replied:
Il don't recall"
Senator Hendrickson asked.
Did you tell Mr.. Becker anything
you haven't told this commit
tee?"
NO" was the reply.
Trouble Over Dates.
Mr.. Becker then asked, Didn't
we have trouble over your recol-
lection as to exact dates and de-
tails?"
Yes" the witness replied.
Did I make any suggestions as
to your demeanor as a witness?"
mo"
"You said you were advised as
to the perjury law" Senator Hen
nings, Democrat, of Missouri, said.
who advised you?"
Il meant I had read about ic
several years ago." Mr.. Kiermas
answered.
What did you read?"
THAT you could be sent to
prison for perjury"
The witness added that he was
(See PIJTT FIR paoe AIN