The Waterbury Democrat., 1939-04-19

ness exclaimed. q didn't see any sense in lying"
 Asked if he would duck and run if not placed within the confines of an oath during testimony, the witt ness replied No"
 q would not lie under oath" he said. He expressed certainty that he was correct when he said that the date of the burning of the records was December IS, 1887.
 Didn't you realize that you should have told the states attor- ney the truth?" asked McDonough. The witness gave an answer which sounded like No" at first, but quick ly recovered to remark, T knew should"
 Not Lying
 McDonough stepped to the foot of the witness stand and in a very loud and derisive voice demanded of the slightly-built janitor, Are you a liar-in good plain English, l ask you?"
 "No," was the reply. You're not in the habit of lying?" he continued. "No," the witness re- joined.
 You wouldn't lie to this jury?" McDonough demanded.
 "I'd try not to-" volunteered Car roll.
 "You might if you were caught in jam," suggested McDonough in less belligerant tone. But the wit nes said "No."
 McDonough i'm m d ia t ely em- parked on the reading of the five pages of transcript of Carroll's tes- timony in the investigation by States Attorney Lewis.
 He identified as his own, state- ments to the effect that he did not get any instructions from Martin J. Dunn to destroy records.
 "No," he replied to a question by Lewis. "he Dunn) never asked me to burn anything"
 Carroll told Lewis that Timothy Horgan directed him and Francis Brice to remove cancelled checks from boxes in the storeroom and i've burned them up."
 we got instructions from MT Horgan," his transcript of testimony read, land we burned papers every day" For years, he said, he "had burned papers as part of his job. ' He said he burned "scrap paper, according to his testimony to MT Lewis.
 Admits Lie Concluding the reading of the Lewis investigation testimony, Mc- Donough asked of the witness, Did you lie before the grand jury?"
 "Yes," he replied shortly.
 Are you lying to this jury?" con- tinued McDonough.
 "No," said Carroll.
 "We lied on account of being told, blurted Carroll.
 But you won't be liar any more?' asked the attorney. T hope not" rejoined Carroll.
 Carroll told McDonough, on further cross examination that AL corn said, All right, I'm glad you told me" When he told Alcorn about being taken to the Diamond Ginger Ale office for the defense conference.
 McDonough won admissions from the witness that the officials "had been pretty decent" to him in city hall, and that Kelly and Dunn had never done anything" to hurt him.
 T didn't think it was right-what they were doing" commented Car roll, concerning the conference.
 "Where did you get the idea it was wrong?" asked McDonough.
 Lawlor Named
 The witness explained that he had been speaking to lawyer, and attempted to hide the identity of the man who advised him to tell MT. Alcorn.
 Who was he?" demanded Mo- Donough. Do I have to tell?' asked the witness. When the at torney demanded the name, he said James Lawlor."
 McDonough then pointed out at l length the nlgn QuanUleS OI lIlc dt- torneys who were at the conference, including Attorney Josiah H. Peck lone of the most distinguished members of the bar in Connecti- cut
 Alcorn entered the argument, ob- jecting to the statements of Me- Donough concerning the conference T submit that they had no right to take him to the Mayors office where there were two defendants give him a drink-take him in the mayors cara mile out-There were plenty of places here he could have been taken"
 Attorney McDonough went back into the battle. stating that Al corn is making goat of this pool unfortunate-it's a shame and g disgrace" He pointed out that MT Alcorn had not told Carroll that the defense lawyers were in thei rights in questioning Carroll. I 70 l.