The Waterbury Democrat., 1939-04-19
Carroll Told By Lawlor To Tell Truth
Janitor Carroll Also SaidHeW eWas ToldtoLie
Continued from Page lJ

uflce) as a reliable and truthful man.
 Sweeney, according to Alcorn, told him that "Joe Carroll the janitol walked into the controllers office with a transfer case and asked . Martin Dunn if he should burn that too"
 Carroll said that he remembered going into the controllers office toward the end of the year, 1887 He carried no case, he said, but there was a case in the office, which he asked Dunn if it should be burned".
 Dunn said, "No,' according to the witness
 Story Still Uncovered
 At no point in his grand jury testimony, as read thus far by Me- Donough, has the story which Car roll revealed in court yesterday been uncovered.
 Following him on the stand are expected to come Brice, Kemp, Hor- gan (one of the defendants, who has pleaded nolo contendere), Will liam O'Donnell ana several city yards employees, including George Smith, James McMahon, John D Kearney. Francis O'Donnell, and others. who are in the courtroom under subpoena.
 Attorney Thomas F. McDonougf counsel for Thomas P. Kelly neces- sitated a delay in the opening ol court from the customary hour oi 10 a. m. to 1O:55. He appeared at the courthouse at 10:45, and closetec himself with Judge Inglis before the session started.
 When the session opened, Joseph J. Carroll, city hall janitor since 1915 who yesterday testified that the city records were destroyed December l8 1987 under the direction of three oi the defendants was recalled to the stand.
 McDonough took over the cross. examination, prepared with the min- utes of testimony which Carroll gave before the grand jury, and also the statements which he made during the inquiry by former States Attor- ney Lawrence L. Lewis. The latter withdrew and recommended that the grand jury be impaneled.
 Opening his questioning, McDon' ough referred the witness to the testimony he gave to MT. Lewis early in January, 1888. The witness die not think that he had been placed under oath before questioning by the former states attorney.
 He was placed under oath before ths grand jury, he said, however.
 McDonough was not prepared fol the answer given by Carroll, wher he asked him the question, Does il make difference to you in testify. ing, whether you were placed under oath or not?"
 Told to Lie
 "We were told to lie-we were tolc to tell lies!" blurted out the witness as McDonough sought to shut off hi testimony.
 q know just how you feel thi mOrning," said McDonough in nor passive voice. "Tell me, lyho hav you been talking over your testi mony with?"
 The witness denied that he hat talked to anyone about his testi mony. With his voice raised McDon ough demanded, Did you talk to MT Hickey or MT. Alcorn about thi case?"
 Carroll admitted he had.
 sWhy did you tell this jury tha you didn't talk with MT. Hicke. about this case?" roared McDon ough, and the tiny grey haired wit ness moved nervously in his seat a. he replied, T made a mistake"
 Ibid you talk to MT. Hickey abou the testimony you were going t' give?" asked McDonough a littl more quietly.
 Again the witness surprised hin by saying, T told him was goint to tell the truth"
 Three times the same question wa asked and each time McDonougl asked for ives or mo-" but each tim' the answer was T told him I wa going to tell the truth"
 Court Rules
 Finally Attorney McDonough ap pealed to Judge Inglis to order tn, witness to answer "yes or mo-" Spe cial Prosecutor Alcorn interruptet to submit, "He has answered tn question as a true witness should"
 But Judge Inglis granted Attor ney McDonoughs request and tolt the witness to give categorical an swer, as McDonough said to Alcor1 "Thank you for the speech, MT. Al corn"
 Carols answer was "No. I did no talk to Hickey about the testlmon, I was going to give" He continue, that he had talked to Alcorn abou the conference at the Diamond Gin ger Ale offices. to which he an, Francise Brice were brought b Thomas P. Kelly.
 In rapid fire order, Attorney Mo Donough asked the witness ques tions about his truthfulness.