The Waterbury Democrat., 1939-04-18

But at each mention of a request for opinion" from the grand jury witness, the same objection was made and overruled.
 Commenting on a jurors question as to whether 'the boys in Water bury. received split, Murray said that the jurors were asking Mack enzie to speculate"
 In answer to grand jurors queries as to whether "there might have been kickback," or if "it might have been Leary," Mackenzie told the grand jury that he didn't know if it was or not"
 Who's Kelly?
 More harsh words resounded be- tween Murray and Alcorn after reading of the grand jury minutes in effect: A question by Alcorn, Tt might have been Kelly?" (with re- ference to split fees) Mackenzie's answer was, "Who is Kelly?"
 He told Murray that he had never heard of Kelly, (Thomas P. Kelly, executive secretary to Mayor Hayes, one of the accused.)
 Murray asked Mackenzie, Don't you think that was cruel Sugges- tion," meaning the reference to Kelly.
 To which Attorney Alcorn inter- rupted, by saying, Well, we didn't have any information about Levy at the time."
 Halting his reading, Attorney Mur- ray appealed to Judge Inglis. He characterized Alcorn's interruption and statement" as improper if not indecent" He continued, T don't try cases that way, and I ask your honor to direct the jury to ignore the statements of the states att torney."
 Judge Inglis compiled with the request of MT. Murray.
 As the grand jury hammered away, seeking to find. the possible beneficiary of the other 3-4 of the checks paid to Williamson, Macken- zie was asked if a legislator might have been paid in pursuance of the lobbying ring.
 T don't know of any legislator who took money" he replied to the grand jury.
 Aside from the record, Attorney Murray asked, "You would be shocked if you knew any state legis- lator took money, wouldn't you?"
 The answer was "Yes."
 The grand jury, according to the minutes, continued its queries about the payoffs. They wanted to know if it wasn't Mackenzie's opinion that the money stayed within the confines of the group of three, Leary, Mackenzie and Williamson who met at the Danbury courthouse during December, 1887.
 Mackenzie's answer to that was, q know what got, had the same opinion you had"
 The jury continued, "We know what you think, we want to have you say it."
 Well, if you'll take it with res- ervation-" said Mackenzie, "A man don't like to accuse-unless he can prove some one else was in on it. But the trend of that thought was lost in the next question.
 Fair Trade Bill
 A juror charged that Mackenzie got 5000 from "Salzberg" for lob- bying against the Fair Trade bill He also was paid by various other interests for lobbying in favor of the bill.
 Ut looks as though you got 1t coming and going" said another juror. | Mackenzie's answer to that state ment was undefinable. He admit ted to Murray today that even now he does not know what he meant.
 Lawl0r Mentioned
 Mention. of Senator Joseph H. Iawlor, who formerly represented the 18th district, Waterbury, in the state senate, was made. Lawlors facing trial in Hartford on charge of corrupt lobbying, also based on grand jury Investigations.
 Mackenzie stated that Lawlor was on 'the other side of the fence." s 5.
 Alcorn charged, "Those were the people you dealt with?" Mackenzie's answer was, Sure
 ''Wao do you suggest we call in and ask that question:" (referring still to the split) juror asked Mac kenzie.
 T wouldn't know" was the reply | Mackenzie denied the inference Ot Murray that in asking that question the jury was asking him to take over the tasks of the grand jury and County Detective Edward J. Hickey in supplying witnesses.
 Gan you tell us if you were in our position, whom you would sum- mon?" asked juror of Mackenzie
 How about Fred Baker?" he was asked, without answering the previ- ous question. Baker, a resident o1 New Haven, is Republican leader
 Mackenzie admitted to Attorney Murray today that Baker is lobby ist but that he never worked for the City of Waterbury. Baker was g witness before the grand jury.
 Baker and Willard
 In answer to another grand jury question, Mackenzie admitted that if there was 8 tieup, 1t would be "be- tween Baker and Willard" Willard is Clarence E. Willard, also of New Haven, another Republican leader and also a grand jury witness.
 At that point of the grand jury testimony, a member offered Mac. kenzie to keep his testimony from the record if he would "give them g lead" to work on, with regard tt the money division.
 Didn't that strike you as amaz- ing?" asked Murray. "No," was the witness reply.
 When juror asked more ques- tions of Mackenzie, pertaining to the split, Mackenzie answered, T don'1 know any more than you do brother"
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