The daily worker. [volume] (Chicago, Ill.) 1924-1958, 1935-01-01

private owners. And finally, the
army of skilled workers. the engi-
neers, the technicians, these too are
not at Roosevelt's command. they
are at the command Of the private
owners; they all work for the pri-
vate owners.
The Bourgeois State
We must not forget the functions
Of the State in the bourgeois world
The State is an institution that
organizes the defense of the coun-
try, organizes the maintenance Of
order; it is an apparatus for COL
Letting taxes. The capitalist State
does not deal much with economy
in the strict sense of the word
the latter is not in the hands of
the State. On the contrary. the
State is in the hands of capitalist
economy. That is why I fear that,
in spite of all his energy and abil-
tiles, President Roosevelt will not
achieve the goal you mention, if
indeed that is his goal. Perhaps, in
the course Of several generations it
will be possible to approach this
goal somewhat; but I personally
think that even this is not very
probable.
WELLS: Perhaps I believe more
strongly in the economic interpre-
tation Of politics than you do. Huge
forces driving towards better or
Tanizstion, for the better function
ing of the community, that is. for
socialism, have been brought into
action by invention and modern
science. Organization, and the reg
ulation Of individual action. have
become mechanical necessities. ir-
respective Of social theories. If we
begin with the State control of the
banks and then follow with the
control of transport, of the heavy
industries, Of industry in general
OF commerce, etc., such an alI-em-
bracing control will be equivalent
to the state ownership of all
branches Of national economy. This
viii be the process of specialization.
Socialism and individualism are
not opposites like black and white
There are many intermediate stages
between them. There is individual
ism that borders on brigandage.
and there is discipline and organi-
cation that are the equivalent of
socialism. The introduction of
planned economy depends. to
large degree, upon the organizers of
economy, upon the skilled technical
intelligentsia who. step by step. can
be converted to the socialist prin-
clples of organization. And this is
the most important thing. Because
organization comes before socialism.
1t is the more important fact. With
out organization the socialist idea
Is a mere idea.
Socialism and the Individual
STAIN: There is not, nor should
there be, an irreconciliable contrast
between the individual and the COL
lective, between the interests of the
individual person and the interests
of the collective. There should be
no such contrast because collectiy-
ism, socialism, does not deny but
combines individual interests with
the interests of the collective. So
cialism cannot abstract itself from
individual interests. Socialist So
ciety alone can most full satisfy
these personal interests. More than
that, socialist society alone can
firmly safeguard the interests of
the individual In this sense there
is no irreconciliable contrast be-
tween "individualism" and socialism.
But can we deny the contrast
between classes, between the prop
ertied class, the capitalist class, and
the telling class, the proletarian
class? On the one hand we have
the propertied class which owns the
banks, the factories, the mines,
transport, the plantations in colo
MES. These people see nothing but
their own interests, their striving
after profits They do not submit
to the will of the collective; they
strive to subordinate every collec-
tive to their will. On the other
hand we have the class of the poor,
the exploited class, which owns
neither factories nor works, nor
banks, which is compelled to live
by selling it's labor power to the
and which lacks the op-
portunity to satisfy it's most ele-
requirements. How can
such opposite interests and strivings
be reconciled?
Presidents Come, Presidents CO.
AS far as I know, Roosevelt has not
in finding the path of
Cancellation between these interests.
And it is impossible, as experience
has shown. incidentally, you know
the situation in the United States
better than I do as I have never
OCCtl bllCAC dllNl NdOCJl 1AlIlSl lOdll
affairs mainly from literature. But
I have some experience in fighting
for socialism, and this experience
tells me that if Roosevelt makes q
real attempt to satisfy the interests
of the proletarian class at the ex-
pense of the capitalist class. the
latter will put another President
in his place. The capitalists will
say: Presidents come and Presidents
go, but we go on forever; if this
or that President does not protect
our interests, we shall find another.
What can the President oppose to
the will of the capitalist class?
ITO Be Ccntinued)