The daily worker. [volume] (Chicago, Ill.) 1924-1958, 1932-06-15

Ludwig-You have behind you many decades
of underground work You had to bring in arms
literature, etc. by underground ways. Do you
not think it possible that the enemies of the
Soviet power may borrow your experience and
fight the Soviet power with the same methods?
Stalin-That is of course quite possible.
Ludwig-Isnt that the reason for the severity
and rnercilessness of your power in its struggle
with its enemies?
Stalin-No, that is not the chief reason. One
san give some examples from history. When the
Bolsheviks came to power they at first showed
mildness to their enemies. The Mensheviks con-
tinued to exist legally and published their news
pape~ The Social Revolutionaries also continued
to exist legally and published their newspapers
Even the Cadets CONSTITUTIONAL Ed
continued to publish their newspaper.
When General Krasnov organized counter
revolutionary attack against Leningrad and fell
into our hands. according to the conditions of
war we might at least have kept him in prison.
or more than that, we might have shot him. But
We let him go "on his word of honor And what
happened? 1t became apparent that such mild
ness only undermines the fortress of Soviet
power. We made mistake to show such mild
ness to enemies of the working class. If we had
further repeated that mistake, we would have
committed a crime against the working class;
we would have betrayed its interests. This soon
became clear. 1t was very soon obvious that the
nilder we were towards our foes, the more they
resisted US Soon the right-wing Social Revo-
lutonaries Gotz and Others and the right-wing
Menchevik organizations organized in Leningrad
the counter-revolutionary "Junkers' uprising as
result of which many of our revolutionary
sailors perished That same Krasnov, whom we
let go ION word of honor" organized whiteguard
Cossscks. He joined Mamontov and for two
years carried on armed struggle against the
Soviet power.
1t soon became clear that behind these white
generals stood the agents of the western capital
Isl powers-France, England, America, Japan.
We were convinced that we had made a mistake
by showing mildness. We understood from this
experience that you can cope with those enemies
only if you use the most ruthless policy of sup
preston.
Ludwig-It seems to me that a large part of
tire population of the Soviet Union has feeling
Of fear towards the Soviet power and that to
certain extent the stability of the Soviet power
rests that feeling of fear. I should like to
know what your own inner reactions are when
you know that in the interests of strengthening
power it is necessary to instill fear. For in
relations with your comrades and friends you
work through entirely different methods not
the methods of nstilng fear but fear is instilled
in the population.
Stalin-You are mistaken However your mis-
take is that of many persons. Do you really
think that for fourteen years one can hold
power and gain the support of the million masses
by the methods of fear and terror No, that is
impossible. The tsar's government knew better
than anyone how to terrorize. In that respect
they had great and ancient experience. The
European bourgeoisie, especially the French
helped tsarsm in this and taught it to terrorize
the people. In spite of that experience, in spite
OF the help of the European bourgeoise, the
policy of terrorizing brought the downfall of
tsar6om
Ludwig-But the Romanovs lasted 300 years
Stalin-Yes, but how many uprisings and
belliors took place in those 300 years; the up
rising Of Stcnka Rain, of Emelian Pugachev
Of the Decembrists, the Revolution of 1905 of
February 1917 the october Revolution. Let alone
the fact that the present conditions of political
and cultural life in the land are radically differ
ent from the conditions of the old days, when
darkness, lack of culture, subnissiveness and
political downtroddenness of the masses made it
possible for the governments of that time to stay
in power for more or less extended period.
AS for the people, as for the workers and
peasants Of the U. S. S. R.. they are by no means
so meek, submissive and scared as you imagine
Many persons in Europe imagine that old pat
riachal conditions prevail in the Soviet Union;
thinking that in Russia .e folks who
are, first, submissive and, second, lazy
That is old and radically mistaken idea
1t arose in Europe from the days when the
Russian landlords began to go to Paris to
squander in idleness the money they had stolen.
Those were really people without will, and
worthless From them was assumed this Russian
'lazness" But this does not in the least apply
to the Russian workers and peasants, who won
and win the means of life with their own toll
1t is strange enough TO consider workers and
peasants submissive and lazy who have in a
short time made three revolutions, destroyed
tsarism and are now VIGOROUSLY building So
cialisn.
You have Just asked me- whether one person
Z decides matters for us. Never, under any condi-
tons would workers now endure the rule
Of one person The highest authorities among
US are turned to nothingness, as soon as the
working masses cease to trust them, as soon as
they lose contact with the working masses. PIE
Ehanov had among us an exceptional standing
Well2 AS soon as he began to waver politically
the workers forgot him, left him and forgot him.
Another example, Trotsky. Trotsky also had
great standing, though certainly far from that
OF Plekhanoy. Well? AS soon as he left the
, workers, they forgot him.
What the Workers Think About Trotsky.
Ludwig -Entirely forgot him?
Stain-They remember him sometimes with