Evening star., 1924-08-02
Grove Says Washington
Doctor First Told Defense
Slayers Were Insane.
LOEB SICK IN MIND DAY
OF KILLING, COURT TOLD
Sharp Clashes Between Prosecu.
ton Counsel and Alienist
Take Place.
By the Associated Press.

CHICAGO, August "A direct at.
tack on the credibility of DR.. William
A. "hite, head of the Government
hospital for the Insane at Washing
ton' was made in Judge Caverly's
court today by Robert Z. Grove.
states attorney, who cross-examined
the doctor on his testimony in de-
fense of Nathan Leopold, jr., and
Richard Loeb.
The attack developed in a shortened
halliday session, when the prosecutor
asked DR.. White to produce the "orig
NAL report" he had made to attorneys
Tor the defense. 1t was stated fatty by
MI Grove, over objections that came
hurriedly from Attorneys Clarence s.
Darrow and Walter Bachrach, that the
report held the defendants insane
rather than mentally sick.
Judge Caverly suggested that since
the question of insanity was barred
from the present proceedings the re-
port might not be competent.
But, your honor expostuIated Mr..
GROVE. IF that report shows that for
$3.50 a day this witness has found
these boys insane and then for the
same fee now holds them only men
tally sick, believe your honor will
give less weight to his opinions"
Another refusal of the report bv
the defense caused Mr.. Grove to saw
he was satisfied to "let the matter
rest right there
Richard Loeb was mentally III" on
May 81. 1924, when he and Nathan Leo
poid, Jr, kidnapped and murdered Robert
animation today by DR.. White
Judge John r. Caverly sustained
an objection by Walter Bachrach of
defense counsel when Robert E.
Grove, States attorney. tried to learn
whether the expert thought Loeb was
insane.
The same opinion was given as to
Leopold.
The session developed sharp
sparring match between the witness
and prosecutor. Sometimes Mr
Groves questions elected a smile
from the doctor, again he complaieed
they were meaningless and at other
times insisted upon going into
lengthy explanations when the States
attorney asked for yes or no an
swer."
That is impossible to give" was
DR.. Whites usual response to such at
tempts to pin him down.
Mr.. Grove once asked if the doctor
thought Loeb had "dementia praecox,
yes or no."
If he can't answer yes or no. let
Judge CaverIy.
rs dementia praecox legal insan-
ity?" asked Mr.. Grove
That is for you lawyers to say"
retorted the doctor over the object
sustained" that came from Mr. Bach
rach and the court simultaneously
Insanity Definitions.
The questioning went into the doc
tors definitions of such things as
"depravity" and moral insanity" and
the distinction between right and
wrong. The doctor said "depravity'
was "a moral term, not a psychiatric
word at ALL" He told Mr.. Grove the
latter knew as we'll as the witness
what the word signified. and the
prosecutor retorted:
And you know as well as 1 what
moral insanity is
e. You say that Loeb and Leopold
are mentally sick. but YOU will not
say they are legally insane" said the
States attorney. Does the fact that
their lawyers desire them to appear
here in just that light cause you TO
back away from an expression of
opinion on that?"
Answer Is Blocked.
A sustained objection blocked any
answer to this insinuation
Can Loeb distinguish between
right and wrong?" was another uues-
tion that caused a deal of sparring
as 10 the sense" in which it was
meant, whether "ordinarily' or
legally
What is right?"
II would like to know" was the
cryptic reply.
Did Loeb know on May 21 that ii
was wrong to kill Robert Franks?"
He knew it was against the law"
did he know it was morally
He could not distinguish exactly"
"Is he legally insane?'
Another objection was sustained
What is criminal intent?" Was
asked at another stage of the battle
Of wits.
II don't know. you tell me-" was
the comeback.
Haven't you referred to it?"
mo, / used the term 'criminalistic
tendencies
The doctor defined this as "anti-
social" and then said that RESPONSE
bility" was "a legal felton," and at
best "acritique of society"
White stu ON stand.
DR.. White, defense alienist, still was
on the stand at the resumption of to-
lays session. The two-hour session
Of court today promised but little
progress, Robert Z. Grove States
attorney. having just begun his cross
Of DR.. White, when court
adjourned yesterday and that busi-
ness promising TO enEross the courts
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