The New York herald., 1921-12-02
I.R. T. MEN FAIL TO TESTIFY
AS IMMUNITY is REFUSED
Continued from First Page.

Continued from First Page.
rs the declaration OF those dividends. If
there was an impairment Of capital at
the time, would carry with II re-
sponsibility not only civil but criminal,
IL seemed necessary before putting any
questions TO YOU. 20 ask you whether
you waive any immunity by reason of
having been compelled to ccrie here un-
der sShpena.
I'm asS,ng this w$iver from you
there Is no Implication that any such
liability exists. But Il is perfectly clear
That II at the time of these transac-
tons the capital OF the company was
in fact impaired such question may
arise"
The examiner explained that the COM
(. mission could not in that event per-
nit itself to be pla ced in the position
: Of having granted immunity from pos
siblc prosecution, which would be in
: evitable under the law il an examina-
; ton were persisted in without pre-
: Yious waiver.
Nicoi Speaks for Belmont.
(. Mr.. Nlcoll, as spokesman as we'll as
: personal counsel for Mr.. Belmont. rose
and raised q restraining hand toward
: his client, who already had begun
a 1tply. NIL 4NlCOll odlO liit 0ii SGlOic
. al were ready to answer "any relevant
4 and pertinent questions" but that they
: must decline to sign immunity waivers.
"They are advised by COUNSEL an
: nounced Mr. Nicoll. that the practice
: of asking witnesses to waive immunity
: Is an Illegal. oppressive and vicious
: practice, not sanctioned by any statute
or rule Of court. and that it, is an in
vasion OF constitutional right
N oh ~ Of nrnfifeAY1nR
/, by the purchase and sale Of these COM
: panies stocks. Mr.. Nicoll asserted that
= such transactions as there were had
. resulted in heavy losses to his clients.
: "Of course" said Mr. Shearn dryly,
we prefer TO have any statements of
their Investments and losses from the
( witnesses rather Than from counsel"
; When the examiner asked Of Mr.. Bel
: mont: rs the statement Of your coun-
ssl your answer to my question:" the
witness replied:
1T is, and desire to say that, not
withstanding that, l am here and pre-
pared to answer any question you desire.
even about my personal Investments and
what represents the very large loss I
have to stand
The speaker here repudiated the
charge Of stock gambling as already
quoted. and added:
My tTdliSdCllOUS anu lily COuneCLlOl
( with this company are an open book to
You. sir, and open TO the public"
"They are OPEN retorted Mr.. Shearn,
except we cannot ask you about them
without granting you immunity"
: Puts Onus on Commission.
"That is your own view OF It," said
Mr.. Belmont, but II you do not ask me
L. --.sxt
give me immunity that is your fault and
X the public and YOU do not get the in
formation required that is your fault.
Waving immunity means nothing to me.
1.-The only reason ] have consented to
this IS that am not only representing
my own interests, but the interests Of
The company. I am informed I might
jsopariize them. 7 have nothing to
jeopardize in my own individual case
le it had not been for my action and
risk in the beginning New York would
rot have had a subway for number of
years. To have such imputations as
lou made here is not much of reward
for the sacrifices that have been made"
II cannot conceive" said Mr.. Shearn,
how 1t can involve any consequences
that any one should wish to avoid for
YOU to make explanation, If there be
Justification of the facts that have been
brought out at this hearing. II was
largely with tho desire to give YOU op-
portunty TO make that explanation and
justification that YOU were called"
Denies Injurious Motive.
Chairman McAneny next addressed
Mr.. Belmont saying: I'VE we're bound
to deem at least unfortunate the sug-
gestion in your memorandum that our
n11tr tu. fAr o.
the 1nterborough company as company
without any recognition OF it's actual pur-
pose, which is wholly reconstructive,
locking toward a reorganization of the
ontire transit system on lines which will
satisfy the public need
THE matters that have been brought
forward with relation to the declaration
of dividends by the Tnterboroueh COM
pany affect not only the question of the
roper valuation Of that company and
its assets. They affect the question of
. tho inadequacy of revenue and of the
Efficiency OF service. They affect very
directly, Mr.. Belmont, the daily needs OF
several millions of people.
And when on the record here, as vet
without contradiction or explanation. il
appears that millions of dollars were
paid out In dividends during a period
when the decrease in net revenue was so
obvious no one could doubt II was about
! - reach the disappearing point, when
dividends were paid under such circum-
gtances, literally the last cent paid out of
fioneys that might properly have con-
stituted reserves against this emergency,
we have been. as I ventured to say yes
tcrday, somewhat amazed
Mr.. Belmont assured the chairman n
nobody is more anxious than the board
of directors for the success of your un-
dertaking and TO assist you in every
way to reach a conclusion"
He went or TO say his company and
I'll Its transactions had been investigated
from time to time lad nauseam." There
really could be nothing new revealed
Mr.. Shearn, Mr.. Belmont added. knew
more about all these things than any
ono else because of his personal intimacy
With the late Theodore p. Shonts
Tie (Mr Shearn) knew all about the
transaction which he deliberately called
Illegal without proof!" exclaimed Mr.
Belmont, who now was speaking in loud
inpassioned voice. That Is his opinion
against the opinion OF Mr.. Shearn-or
Judge Shearn, I beg your pardon--are
the opinions of our very best counsel"
Company Sought UniHed Lines.
The object OF the management from
the very beginning, Mr.. Belmont said
lad been TO give the city a unified sys-
tenn. Referring to his board colleagues
- f.uI