New-York tribune. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1866-1924, 1920-08-22
$1,0O0,OOO in
Assets Turned
Over by Ponzi
Amount Held by Receivers
Stands Against Debts
Estimated at $7,5OO.OOO
by Federal Accountant
Wizard Shows Irritation
Resents Question Whether
He Told the Truth to
the u. S. Attorney General


millions of dollars which he received
from investors in his discredited finan-
cial operations and went on the wit
ness stand to tell about the rest.
Little had been elected as to his assets,
however, when the receivers hearing
was adjourned until Tuesday next.
Ponzi showed irritation when counsel
for the receiverS asked whether he had
told the truth when he informed AT
torney General U. Weston Allen, of
Massachusetts, that he had between
$4,000 900 and sS,000,000 in cash. For
time the hearing was stormy, the re-
ceivers charging that Ponzi was trying
to deceive them and Ponzis counsel
1etorting with the assertion that their
client was being browbeaten.
The checks and securities which
Ponzi handed over to the receivers, as
announced in the courtroom to-day,
did not greatly exceed 100000. Ed
win l.. Pride, the accountant who has
been conducting an audit for the Fed
eral authorities, again estimated
Ponzi's liabilities at 100000. Ponzi
said he had additional assets, but did
not indicate their amount.
Notes Paid From Receipts
The only business of which Pride
could find any trace, the auditor tes-
titled, was the issuing of notes for the
amount of the investment, plus so per
cent, and the payment of early notes
by the receipts from later ones. There
was nothing in PonzIs books, he said,
to indicate any business in interna-
tional postal reply coupons such as
Ponzi claimed to be the basis of ire
mendous profits.
Ponzi began his testimony with
statement that he was ready to make
full disclosures in order that the re-
ceivers might proceed with their bust
ness OF bringing together his assets
for the benefit of his creditors. He
had been carried through minor Ques-
tions when Robert q. Dodge, counsel
for the receivers, raised the question
Of the truthfulness of his statements
to the Attorney General. Ponzi's re-
piled with some heat that the present
hearing was concerned with assets, not
his statements to the Attorney General.
Unless questions were confined to the
assets, he said, he would assist the re-
ceivers no further.
Daniel V. McIsaxc. counsel for Ponzi,
supported his clients objections.
IF the receivers Will be fair we in
tend to help them in every way; but
this examination does not point that
way" he declared.
Attorneys Get S25, 600 Each
1t was brought out that McIsaac
and Daniel H. Coakley, of Ponzi's coun-
sci, had received fees of $4,000 each.
r 1oi, cd hot
Trust Company, in which Ponzi kept
his principal account had paid these
sums on authorization from Ponzi
Ponzi's replies to questions by coun-
sci for the receivers indicated ig-
norance of the conduct of his business
affairs. He did not know the names of
his agents, was not familiar with his
accounts in several banks and was in
doubt how many persons were author
lied to draw checks in his name He
said he left most of these things to
Miss Lucy Nell, the eighteen-year old
girl who was manager of his Office
Mr.. Dodge drew from Ponzi a state
ment of certain holdings not previously
of record by the receivers, among them
900 shares of the Hanover Trust
Company, the bank which collapsed
when his business went to the wall.
Among large payments which he had
made recently he mentioned S55 600 in
settlement of the claim of Joseph Dan
jjcls, furniture dealer. who, because
he lent Ponzi 5000 at the outset of his
career, sued him for $1,000, 600 as a
partners share.
Ponzl SAID he was certain that he had
paid out to holders of matured or sur
rendered notes an aggregate of $780,
600 after his conference with state and
Federal authorities on July &c and be-
fore payments were stopped two weeks
later.
After Auditor Pride had finished his
testimony the sessions were continued
until next Tuesday, with q request by
the receivers that Ponzi and Pride get
together so that Ponzi might refresh
his memory on business details from
books taken from his office
Oyerdraft Fixed at $441,779
The early examination bore on de-
tails ranging from certificates of de
post of million or more to checks
for So and $3.50, in settlement of his
balances at certain banks. Robert G..
Dodge, counsel for the receivers, pro
duced sheaf of checks which he said
had been given the receivers by Nh
Mclsaac as partial surrender to them
OF Ponzi's property. Among them were
two certificates of deposit on the Han
over trust Company of Boston, now
closed because of Impairment of its
finances by Ponzi's operations, for $500
Uoo each, and another for $5S 22l
fonzi was asked what relation these
mad TO a certificate for 81 ,5O0,O 900 which
ne mad shown around town a month
ago. He explained they represented
the balance of the latter certificate,
deductions from which were made be-
cause he had overdrawn other accounts
at the bank. The extent of his over
drawal. he said. was the difference be-
tween the sum Of the three certificates
produced and that for $1,000, 600
S4il, 49, 1t was this discovery that
Ponzi had overdrawn an account at the
Hanover Trust Company that caused
Bank Commissioner Joseph c. Allen to
order the bank to stop payment on his
checks. the first definite step preceding
the collapse of his operations.
When Counsel Dodge asked Ponzi
if he had stated that he had 100000
Ira in a company doing business be-
tween New York and Italy, Edwin II
Abbott jr., assistant to Attorney Cen
eral Allen, whispered something in Mr..
Dodge's ear. Ponzi observed the Incl
dent and instead of answering the
question made a remark in tone so
low that ii was almost naudible But
Receiver Thurston heard it and voiced
his objection to it, declaring: This
man represents the Attorney General
will not have him insulted."
Ponzi asserted that "If | were not