davidaulloa/AmericanStories huggingface dataset:
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
British.J japanese
Pact on Sha,,tl,ue

Senator Lodge referred to the secret
treaty between Great Britain and
Japan regarding Shantung and said
tnat IN the correspondence relating to
the treaty it was stated that Great
Britain should have the German
islands south of TIE equator and Japan
those north of the equator.
Senator Lodge-If it should seen
necessary for the safety of commun,-
cation for this country that we should
have a cable station there, would that
seer treaty interfere with it?
The President-I think not, sir. IN
view of the stipulation that | made
with regard to the question of con
struction by this cable convention
That note of the British Ambassador
(regarding the German islands, was
part of the diplomatic correspond
ence covering that subject
Senator Lodge-That was what i
understood.
Senator Moses-Was the stipulation
that that should be reserved for the
consideration of cable convention N'a a
formally signed protocol?
The Pres sident-No, it was not a
formally signed protocol, but we had
prolonged and interesting discussion
on the subject and nobody has any
doubt as to what was agreed upon.
senator Lodge said that it seemed
that the treaty would give the five
principal Allied and associated powers
the authority to make such disposi
tiorrs as they saw fit of those islands
Senator Borah then asked who would
pass on the question under the with
drawal clause Of the league covenant.
whether nation had fulfilled it's in
ternational obligations.
The President Nobody.
Senator Borah-Does the council
have anything to say about it?
The President-Nothing whatever.
senator Borah-Then if country
snould give notice of withdrawal. It
would be the sole judge of whether or
not it had fulfilled its interna,;onal
Obligations, its covenants to the ieapueq
Ihe President-This Is as | under.
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20

nations had been drawn up by Brit
lsh committee at the head of which
was Mr.. Flllemore-I believe the Mr..
Fillemore who was known as the
authority on international law. A copy
OF that document was sent me and |
built upon that redraft. | will not
now say whether l thought it was bet
ter or not an Improvement, but built
on that a draft which was quite diff
ferent, inasmuch as it put definiteness
where there had been what seemed in
definiteness in the Fillemore sugges-
ton. Then between that time and
the time of the formation of the COM
MISSION on the league of nations had
the advantage of seeing q paper by
General SHUTS, of South Africa, who
seemed to me to have done some very
clear thinking, particularly with re-
gard to what was to be done with the
pieces OF the dismembered empire Af-
ter L got to Paris, therefore, | re-
wrote the document to which | have
alluded, and you may have noticed
that 1T consisted Of series of articles
and then supplementary agreements.
1T was in the supplementary agree
ments that l embodied the additional
ideas that had come to me not only
from General Smutss paper but from
other discussions. That is the full
story of how the plan which | sent to
the committee was built up.
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Jews the Treaty Presented Before Lodge Committee
not discuss ideas half as much as we
discussed phraseology.
Expect Fulflmcnt
'Of OBLIGATIONS

The President said if reservation
were embodied in the ratification
"there would have to be either explicit
acquiescencc or the elapsing of long
enough time for US to know whether
they (thc other goverpmcnts) were I'M
plicitly asquiescing or not
Senator Hardng-Mr President, as
suming that your construction of the
withdrawal clause is the understand
ing of the formulating commission,
why is the language making the pro
viso for the fultilmept of covenants
put into the article?
The Merely as an argu-
ment to the conscience of the nations.
/ other words, it is notice served on
them that their colleagues will expect
that at the time they withdraw they
will have fulfilled their obligations.
Senator Harding said if that were
true. the language seemed rather a
far-fetched provision"
Senator Pittman asked whether Ger
many put the same construction or
articles Of the treaty as did the Allied
governments.
The Presidcnt-I have no means of
knowing
Senator Pittman-Germany then has
not expressed herself to the commits
sion with regard to these moot qucs-
tions?
The President-No, we have no cx-
preston from Germany about the
league except the expression of her
very strong desire to be admitted to it,
The President acquiesced in sugges-
ton by Senator Pittman that any
change would require resubmission to
Germany.
Senator Lodge--Mr President, in
that connection, I take it there is no
question whatever, under international
law aud practice, that any amendment
TO the text of treaty must be sub
mittcd to every signatory and must
receive either their assent or their
dissent | had supposed it had been
the general diplomatic practice with
regard to reservations which apply
only to the reservlng power, and not
to all the signatories, of course, that
with regard to reservations it had been
the general practice that silence was
regarded as acceptance and acquies-
cence; that there was that distinction
between tcxtual amendments which
change the treaty for every signatory,
and reservation, which changes it
only for the rescrving power. In that
| may be mistaken, however.
The Prcsident-There is some diff
ference Of opinion among the au-
thorities, am informed. | have not
had time to look them up myself about
that; but it is clear to me that in d
treaty which involves so many sigma
tories, series Of rXations-which
would onsuc undoubtedly ly-would very
much obscure our confident opinion as
to how the treaty was going to work
Senator Willams-Mr President.
suppose, for example, that we adopted
a reservation, as the Senator from
many did nothing about it AT all, and
atterward contendcd that, so far as
that was concerned, it was new matter,
TO which she was never a party. Could
her position be justihably disputed?
The Pres dcnt-No.
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Interrogation Is
Opened by lodge
Wilson Says O,her Pocts
<fve Deioyed Pending
1ction on Main One

After the President had finished read
Ing his statement to the Senators
Chairman Lodge of the Foreign Rela
tons Committee opened the interroga-
ton of Mr.. Wilson. He asked:
Mr. President, so far as | am per
sonally concerned and | think I rep
resent perhaps the majority of the
committee in that respective have no
thought of entering upon arguments as
10 expectations or points of that
character; but the committee was very
deslrous of getting information on GER
tam points which seem not clear and
ON which they thought information
would be of value to have IN considc era
ton of the treaty, which they. | think
may say for myself and others. de-
sire to hasten in every possible waw
Your reference to the necessity of
action leads me to ask one question.
If ye have to restore peace to the
world, 1t is necessary, | assume, that
'nere should be treaties with Austria.
hungary, Turkey and Bulgaria. Those
treaties are all more or less connected
with the treaty with Germany. The
question should like to ask is what
the prospects are of receiving those
treaties for action.
The President-i think it. is very
good SIR, and so far as can Judge
b from the contents of the dispatches (
from my colleagues on the other SIDE
OF the water, the chief delay is due to
NE uncertainty as to what is going 10
) happen to this treaty. This treatV ;s
model of the others. saw enoupb
of the others before | left Paris 10
know that they are being framed upon
the same set Of principles and that the
treaty with Germany is the model
think that is the chief element of de-
lay, sir.
Senator Lodge-They are not re.
garded as essential to the considera-
Non of this treaty?
The President They are not regard
cd as such, no, sir; they follow this
treaty
Senator LODGE do not know about
the other treaties, but the treaty with
pleted?
The President nt-Yes, and signed; but
1t is dependent upon this treaty. NV
thought was to submit it upon the ac-
tlon on this treatv
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Americas Share in
German Reparation

Senator Lodge then asked whether
the United States would receive any
part OF the German reparation funds.
The President-l left that question
open, Senator. because | did not feel
that had any final right to decide if
Upon the basis that was set up in. the
reparation clauses the portion that the
United States would receive would be
very small, at best, and my own iudg-
ment was frequently expressed, not as
declslon but rs judgment, that we
should claim nothing under those
general clauses. | did that because
coveted the moral advantage that
that would give us in the counsels of
the world.
Senator McCumber- that mean
We would claim nothing for the sink
ing of the Lusitania?
The Pres ident-Oh, no. That Aid
not cover questions of that sort at
all
The President added that pre-war
CLAIMS were not covered by the repara-
ton clause, and said the reparation
commission would decide. He re-
peated that American participation in
the PREPARATIONS remained to be de-
cided.
Senator Lodge-By the commission ?
NC leSlueHL-by the comm lOr
Senator Lodge asked if there had
been any recommendation by Ameri
can naval authorities as to whethe,.
the unl ed States should have one Of
the Ladrone, Caroline or Marshall
islands for naval purposes.
The President-There was a paper
on o. that subject, Senator. which has
been published only partially
remember it. 1t was paper ,avinr
out the general necessities of our
naval policy in the Pacific and the
necessity of having some base for
communication upon those island, vas
mentioned, just in what form | d, not
r., r. rsmember. But let me say this:
s mere Is little island which I mus
admit had rot heard of before.
zap? VI
The President-Yap. 1t is one OF
the bases and centres of cable and
radio communication on the Pacitic
and | made the point that the dis
position, or rather the control. of that
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20

pa rucu-ar sense. aHd tins governn.,.
tnroug. IS ,orei q eeDartmen. - IN
fers the proposed :orm % ra.,fc..'.'"- ,fa.'-
20 the caence liors of fne other -.
thai are concerned ir this tres.v 's.s s.s
II these interpretations are the 80
a. you aaFc agreed upon Nth thar ~
your corve rsations, 7 10 no, %. "a
we ~oul! need any'1iag NOR. thu, wv
mere reply 10 that effect.
The Precedent It would need -.
firmation. 0'a'
senator Knox Yes it would ,...
confirmation ir fhst serse "'ea
The President Ny 5udgmen, J., -.
the embodXing of that IN the Term. ::
the resolution Of ratification worlS y :,
acquicscencc not onls IN the -
pretatlon. bt. ~ fhe very nhrsss"ls.'
Of the Interpretation. because /, pon-i
form = par Of tho cortrsc-.
Senator Knox I'm sat with i, !.
cause VIC have so mno nach,,s-, a.. a..
dealing wi'n treaties. but IN ..s.. -.
countries who're j. Is mach more s,r.;'
| should think it would nor b..
A more or les, general discuss,, =.
the method OF dealing with req. y.
abroad followed at that noint a..
%hlcn Senator Fail suggested ,...
rcscrvations % the league covensr,
could be met, so far a. GERMANY w..
concerned. ~ nov decision la.s- =.
70 whether she would inin the league
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Fears 10 Ask Wei,nar
TO Ra,ify All Over

Most OF the interpretations which
have been suggested to me embodv
what seems to me the plain mean
ing of the instrument itself. But if
such interpretations should consti-
tute part of the formal resolution
OF ratification. long delays would be
the inevitable consequence, inasmuch
as all the many governments CON
ccrncd would have to accept, in
onec'' the language OF the Senate
as the language Of the treaty be
tore ratification would be complete.
The assent of the German Assembly
at Wcmar would have to be OBJ
tanned, among the rest, aud mus.
frankly say that could only With
the greatest reluctance approach that
assembly for permission to read the
treaty as NC understand 1t aud As
those who framed it quite certainly
understood it,
If the United States were to qua;-
ify the document in any way, more
over, | am confident from what !
know of the many conferences and
debates which accompanied shc for
mutation of the treaty that our
example would Immediately be fol-
lowed in many quarters, in some in
stances with very serious reserva-
tions, and that the meaning and
operative force of the treaty would
presently be clouded from one end
of its clauses to the other.
Pardon nc, Mr.. Chairman, if |
have been entirely unrcserVcd and
plain spoken in speaking of the great
matters we all have so much at
heart. If excuse is needed | trust
that the otficialssituation of affairs
may serve as my justification.
The issues that manifcstly hang
upon the conclusions Of the Senate
with regard to peace and upon the
time of its action are SO grave and
so clearly unsusceptible of being
thrust on one side or postponed that
have felt it necessary in the pub
lie interest to make this urgent plea,
and to make it as simply and as
unreservedly as possible.
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
American View Was
Embodied in the Pact

The view of the United States with
regard to the questions | have men
toned had, in fact, already been
accepted by the commission and there
was supposed to be nothing incon-
sistent with them in the draft of
the covenant first adopted the draft
which was the subject of our discus
sion in March-but no objection was
made to saying explicitly in the text
what all had supposed to be implicit
in it.
There was absolutely no doubt as
to the meaning of any one of the
resulting provisions of the covenant
in the minds of those who partici-
pated in drafting them and ! re-
spectfully submit that there is moth
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20

hers anyhow And the unanimous
vote Of the council is only advice in
any case. Each government is free
no reject it if it pleascs. Nothing
could have been made more clear
to the conference than the right of
our Congress under our Constitution
to exercise it's Independent judgment
in oil matters of peace and war. No
attempt was made to question or
limit that right.
The United States will, indeed, un-
dertake under Article X to "respcct
and preserve as against external ag-
gression the territorial integrity and
existing political independence Of ali
members Of the league" and that en-
gagement constitutes very grave
and solemn moral obligation.
But it is a moral, not legal, OBJ
legation, ard leaves our Congress abb
solutey free to put it's own inter-
probation upon it in all cases that
call for action. 1t is binding in con-
science only, not in law
Article X seems to me to consti-
tute the very backbone of the whole
covenant. Without it the league
would be hardly more than an in
tiuential debating society.
1t has several times been suggest
ed, in public debate and in private
conference, that interpretations of
the sense in which the United States
accepts the engagements of the Gov
enant should be embodied in the in
strument of ratification There can
be no reasonable objection to such
interpretations accompanying the act
OF ratification provided they do not
torn part of the formal ratification
itself
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
automatic Boycott
is Sole Punishment

Asked whether there would be the
same freedom as 20 application Of a
boycott, the President replied:
"Only in regard 20 certain articles
The breach OF certain articles of the
covenant does bring on what ] have
dies gnated as an automatic boycott
and in that we would have no choice
Senator KnoH-Suppose thu. II j.
perfectly obvious and accepted that
there is an external aggression against
some power. ard suppose it is per
fectly obvious and accepted that j,
cannot be repe.led e~cept by force q
arms, would we be under any .egxl
obligation TO participate?
The President NO, sir, LuG ve
should be under an absolutely CON
pelling moral Obligation.
In reply to Senator Williams. the
President said again that The applIca-
bilty OF the principles contemplated d
in the covenant would rest entirely on
national decision.
Senator Knox referred to the White
House statement of May 10, which. he
said, had quoted the President as say
ing that the French defensive treaty
would merely bind the United States
to do Immediately what she would
otherwise be bound to do under the
league covenant.
The President did not use the
word bound" but, "noraly bound. y
Let me say that You are repeating
what l said to the other representa-
tives. | said "of course il is under
stood we would have to be convinced
that it was an unproVoked movement
Of aggression" and they at once ac-
quiesccd in that.
Discussing further the question Of
reservations with Senator McCumber,
the President said:
eve differ only as to the form Of
action, think it would be a very seri-
Gus practical mistake to put II IN tire
resolution of ratification; but 90
hope that we are at liberty, contem-
poraneously with our acceptance OF
the treaty, to interpret our moral OBJ
legation under that article"
Senator KnoX-Mr. President, is K
not true that such matters are ordi-
narily covered by mere exchange Of
notes between powers, stating that
they understand IN this or that sense,
or do not so understand
The President sir, ordinarily.
Senator knox-That would be a mat
ter that would require very little time
to. communicate It il these construc-
tions have already been placed upon
1t IN their conversations with vou
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Cannot Understand
Reasons for the DELAY

Nothing, am led to believe, stands
IN the way of the ratification of the
treaty except certain doubts with re-
gard to the meaning and implication
at certain articles of the covenant
or the league Of nations. and I must
frankly say that | am unable to un
derstand why such doubts should be
entertained.
ou may recall that when had
the pleasure Of conference with
your committee and with the com
m1ttee of the House Of Representa-
tivcs on foreign affairs at the White
House in March last the questions
now most frequently asked about
the league of nations were all can
vassed, with a view to their immcdi-
ttc clarificatlon.
The covenant of the league WAS
then i'll It's first draft and subject to
revision. 1t was pointed out that no
express recognition was given to the
Monroe Doctrine, that it was not cx-
prcssly provided that the league
should have no authority TO act or TO
express a judgment on matters of
domestic policy, that the right to
withdraw from the league was not
expressly recognized, and that the
constitutional right of the Congress
TO determine all questions Of peace
and war was not sufficiently safe
guarded. On my return to Paris all
these matters were taken up again
by the commission on the league of
nations and every suggestion of the
United States was accepted
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Right to Withdra,c
Is Conditional

Senator Borah then asked whether,
when notice had been given, the right
to withdraw would be unconditional
The Pre- sident-W ell, when the notice
is given it is conditional on the face
of the conscience of the withdrawing
nation at the close of the two-year
period
Senator Borah-Precisely but it is
unconditional so far as the legal right
or the moral right is concerned
The President-Tffat is nv interpre.
tation.
Senator Borah-There is no moral
obligation on the part of the United
States to observe any suggestion mad
| by the council?
The President-Oh, no.
Senator Rorah-With reference T.,
withdrawing?
The esident-There might be
moral obligation if that suggestion had
weight, Senator, but there is no other
obligation.
Senator Borah-Any moral obligation
which the United States would feel
would be one arising from its own
sense of obligation?
The President oh, certainly
Senator Borah asked whether the
suggestion that the council would pass
on such an obligation was erroneous
The President replied, yes, Ger
tainly."
Senator Borah asked whether the
president was expressing the view held
by the commission which drafted the
league. ''''
The President am confident tha.
that was the view That view was not
formulated, you understand, but | am
conhdent that that was the view.
In reply to Senator McCumber the
PRESIDENT repeated that he felt il
would be mistake to embody inter
pretations in the resolution of ratitica-
ton, saying:
We can interpret only moral obli-
CATION. The legal obligation can be
enforced by such machinery as there
Is to enforce it. We are, therefore, at
liberty to interpret the sense in which
we undertake. moral obligation.
Senator McCumber asked whether the
other nations could not accept inter.
pretations by the Senate "by acquies.
Tn: President-My experience as
lawyer was not very long; but that cx
perlence would teach me that the Ian
euaee OF contract is always part Of
me debatable matter, and can testify
mat IN our discussions in the commits.
sion on Che league of nations we did
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20

ing vague or doubtful in their word
ing.
Tho Monroe Doctrine is expressly
mentioned as an understanding which
is in no way to be impaired or in
terfcred with by anything contained
in the covenant, and the expression
regional understandings like the
Monroe Doctrine" was used, not
because any one of the conferrces
thought there was any comparable
agreement anywhere else in existence
or in contemplation, but only because
it was thought best to avoid the
appearance Of dealing in such docu-
ment with the policy Of single ma
ton. Absolutely nothing is concealed
in the phrase
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20

island should be reserved for the gen
eral conference which is to be held,
IN regard to the ownership and opera
ton of the cables. That subject is
mentioned and disposed of in this
treaty and that general cable confer
ence is to be held
Senator Lodge had understood. or
| had heard report that our gen
eral board Of the Navy Department.
our chief of operations, had recon-
n-ended that we should ha e a footing
there, primarily y in order to secure
cable comm -nication.
The President--I think you are
right
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Industry Marks Time
While Statesmen Talk

The copper mines of Montana and
Alaska, for example, are being kent
open ana IN operation only at d great
cost and loss, an part upon borrowed
money; the zinc mines of Missouri.
Tennessee and Wisconsin are, heinz
operated at about one-half their ca
pacity; the lead of Idaho, Illinois and
missouri reaches only portion of its
former market; there is an Immediate
need for cotton betting and also for
lubrlcating oil which cannot be met
all because the channels of trade
are barred by war when ther.
is no war. The same is true of raw
cotton, of which the Central Empires
alone formerly purchased nearly A.,
100000 bales, and these are only ex
amples. There is shardly single
raw material, single important
foodstuf. or single class of man
ufactured goods which is not in the
same case. Our full, normal. profit
able production waits on peace.
Our military plans, of course, wait
upon it. We cannot intellieently or
wisely decide how large Il naval or
military force we shall maintain. or
what our policy with regard to mill
tary training is to be until we have
not only peace, but also until we
know how peace is to be sustained.
whether by the arms Of single nations
or by the concert of all the great
peoples. And there is more than that
difficulty involved. The vast surplus
properties of the army include not
food and clothing merely, whose sale
Will affect normal production, but
great manufacturing establishments
also, which should be restored to their
1ormer uses, great stores of machine
tools and all sorts of merchandise
which must lie idle until peace and
military policy are definitely de-
termined. BY the same token there
can be no properly studied national
budget until then.
New-York tribune., 1919-08-20
Calls Article X Clear
When Full Treaty ls Read

full meaning when read in the light
of the covenant as a whole The coun-
> Gil of the league can only "advise
cations of that great article are to
be given effect. Unless the United
States is party to the policy or ac-
ton in question, her own affirmative
vote in the council is necessary be-
fore any advice can be given, for
unanimous vote of the council is re-
quired
If she is a party. the trouble is