davidaulloa/AmericanStories huggingface dataset:
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

I as. in q measure, . Or. Jekyll and Mr..
Hyde? A. | do /. and most of them
were.
@. Then which Mr.. Barnes. Mr.. Jekyll
Barnes or Mr.. Hyde Barnes. did you
appoint To office and express your pleas
are in appointing? A. I appointed Mr..
Barnes to the office and until 1910 I
hoped that we were going to get tho
lir. Jekyll Barnes side uppermost and
I did not abandon hopo of II until after
1911.
@. And IL not the implication In your
answer that the Jekyll side was not up
permost at the time you made this APP
pointment7 A. That Is not the implica-
ton at all. thought there we're both
sides in him. did not know which was
uppermost. ! was trying to do the best
I could get the Or. Jekyl side upper
most, but 7 do know that the Treasury
Department had officially reported to
me that he had done his duty well
and should be reappointed. ] acted on
the Treasury Departments official re-
port to me.
Q. This question Of severing tho liga-
ments between the Siamese twins Jekyll
and Hyde did not arise. did it. until you
and he had ceased TO agree? A. Oh, no.
sir. there was no question OF severing
the lieaments II Is absorbing one bit
of the other.
q. You mean absorbing Mr.. Barnes by
you or Mr.. Barnes absorbing you? a.
| am not speaking OF the absorbing OF
either of us. ] am speaking OF the ABB
sorption of the man OF good character or
the bad. That is all. l am speaking
of the absorption In man OF the good
character by the bad or the bad char
acter by the good Mr.. Barnes was
only one Of the thousand OF pub
lie men with whom I was dealing on
that basis. trying to got the best l
could.
Mr. Ivins-I move TO strike tho lat
ter part out. Thousands of men with
whom he was dealing"
Court-The part may go out.
Bv Mr.. ivlns--Q. According to your
testimony you were endeavoring to re-
construct Mr.. Barnes and in the mean
time keeping him IN office? A. l was
endeavoring TO appeal 10 what was best
b in him and in that sense reconstruct him
Mr.. WINS frequently referred to and
quoted from what he referred to az
Col. Roosevelt's magnum opus-his au-
photography
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

cussed the organization. lie reported he
went on to chicago. All reported to me
that the committee was going to elect
Mr. Penrose. and I told him to notify
them II they did I would not recognize
Mr. Penrose. that | would do all my
work separately through MIR. Cortelyuu.
q. As "a matter of fact the Republic
can National Committee was already In
existence before the convention met, was
IL not? A. II was IN existence before
the convention met This was just prior
to the meeting OF the convention that I
had this correspondence and commune
cation with Mr.. Meyer.
q. You took the matter IN hand per-
sonally. did you not? a. Yes. sir.
Q. And dictated Mr.. George W. Cor
telyou as chairman? A. Yes; I tried to
get Mr. Cornelius Bliss to take " first
and informed them that 7 would not
submit to having Mr.. Penrose put in AZ
chairman Of the committee; that would
insist upon having some man In whom
I had entire confidence.
q. That committee Is an off'cial body,
is It not? A. DO you mean In the eye
OF law?
Q. No. mean ofYicial body under the
rules and practices of the Republican
party as they had been established for
the last thirty or forty years? A. It is
an official body. Whether that TX In
acorden nee with the rules and practices
I don't know.
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

@ II you found that GEORGE Goua
according 70 this report "or'r' hY'si
100000 to your support would YOU Rave
any doubt OF It: y. Is that IN tAe ?,
port?
g Yes. A. No. would not have AT,
doubt OF It
g. Who was Mr. Georg. : Could,
He was The son OF Jay Gould art - pas
connected with big railroad ou' e. "
souri,, IN the West
Q The entire Missouri and sou'hsr
Pacific systems A Yes
g. II Won found tina, MI @ Won I.
Meyer, who was In your Cabinet. mAts
a further contribution under trA TIE O
Boston committee, would YOU doubt 4
A Not AT all
Q. Does that mean that he pe-soaa..t
contributed all those sums = o. not
know anything about f. Nut 7 suppose
mat the last were contributions made TO
him. | don't know
g, II you found that T. Il Ha--rAr
had contributed $4,000 20 th4- AN
paign would YOU have any dou'' 49, -
a. Would that include rl4' In those ~
would that tnclude the pawn pc ~,dA
by the New York campaign
Q, This IS FOR the Pro, ce--ll AN
paign solely. And tN's r"rsrr' e.
My Information NJ that NJ n t--.71f
contributed Il 10 the New Yu.. 80
campaign. and r. was merely -1-d
20 the National Committee ga y H.~,'S
OF transfer 20 the New York S'f's I'm.
paign.
Q. 10 You know a. 4 matter % Nsc'
that Mr.. Hartman contributed .. ne
National Committee 500, hqo lr. al
was the report % tho CLAMP corr" -
which investigated the OrI,r.1g'. .'e 20
the National COMMITTEE \ II '.l' Il
tho report I have no qu~- ~ 10
9 Who was Charles : N,.er
The president Of New York, New lIsner
and Hartford road
q And he was IN re conveT"ol 'N"
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

q what do You mean by 'in n pro-
fcSsiOnal way your profession or his
profession? y. My being Governor and
his being leader Of the lower branch
of the Legislature brought me in contact
with him, Just as IL brought me In con-
tact with the Speaker. | had with him
formal relations that his position de-
mandcd With Mr.. Higgins | had in
innate relations he was n man on whom
! relied greatly and in whose judgment
and integrity | had great confidence
The next line of cross-eXamination
had TO do with Col Roosevelts opin-
ions of Barnes while Roosevelt was Gov
ernor and in much later years when they
had disagreed.
between two keen minds. the lawyer
thrusting, the Colonel parrying and
sometimes hitting back pretty hard
g. Mr.. Barnes was not Of sufficient
political significance for you to have
referred to him as n dominant factor
Ia politics when you described and wrote
the history Of your Guhernatoral ad-
ministratiun? 4. He was not OF the
same significance that Mr.. Plat and
Mr. Odcll were
Q. lie was not OF such importance as
IN leave you to regard him IN the same
light when you wrote your autobiogra-
ply as you did when you wrote the pub
lshed statement of which we complain?
\. In 1913 ! regarded him In exactly
the same way that ! regard him now.
@, II YOU regarded him In the same
way that you regarded him in the mat
ter complained OF why did you make
no reference to him, why did you treat
, him as negligible in your autoblog
I raphy? A. Because ] particularly wished
not to make any wanton or malicious
attack on him. II my autobiography
/ had been written AS an appeal to the
I voters OF New York state 70 get rid
Mr. lyns--l object to that.
B Tho Court--iiut Nou asked him why
/ that allows him 10 answer
| MIR INins.-l think no has answered
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

Z. Wa. II HAIRY y. New a l mink
il was
q Was Mr New boss A. think
Mr. New was a member of the Indiana
machine, but whether he was the boss
Of q, or not ! couldn't tell you, but
don't believe he was.
9 Who represented Massachusetts,?
\ Murray Crane.
O. Was he a boss? A. I didn't think
so.
q 10 you now think that he was then
a boss A No. ! don't think that Mas
sachusetts has bosses in the New York
sense think he was the head of the
Massachusetts machine.
''Bossrs" Depend Upon Locality.
@ You mean to make a distinction
with regard TO the definition OF boss"
predicatcd upon locality. do YOU A. I
do. most cmpha,ically. Not only outside
state, hut within a State,
q. That is. understand you could
not define boss unless you were told
whore he came from? A No. l might
define - boss IN way that Il would
apply TO all The term boss In one
locality Counotated totally different ac-
,Nlt.cs and methods OF work from wha,
would ba couno'ated by the term Of
boss" in another locality OF another
state.
q Who represented New Jersey A.
| cannot tell you.
.. Was not II Franklin Murphy A.
Franklin Murphy, yes ! think Il was,
@ Was he boss within the def,ni-
ton OF the term described by locality ?
\. ! should say that Mr.. Murphy prob
ably was.
q Who represented New York; A.
don't remember,
@ Was not Il william l.. Ward
A. ! think Il was but am not sure.
@ Was not he the boss OF Westchester
county A He was the boss OF West
chester county
9. No doubt about that. Is there7 A.
No doubt about that. And good
friend Of mine.
Q. Who represented Ohio A. 7 can
not say. That was after Mark Hanna's
death, was I, not
c. Yes. \ Then do not know
Q Was not T. Myron T. Herrick7 A
Q Was he boss IN the Ohio sense
~ the word' A. No. sir.
g. Who represented Pennsylvania
4 Mr. renrose.
q WAS he boss He was. He
was tho man they nominated. wanted
10 nominate for chairman OF the COM
m'tce and ] would not have him. and
put Cortelyou In his place.
., Who represented TeSas7 A.
don't know Cecil Lyons, I think
Q Was he boss? A. No,
Q. Who represented West Virginia
a 10 not remember
Q, Was not IT Nathan Scott A. Ma
than scott, yes.
q Was not no boss" \ 7 don't
know his influence IN West Virginia.
= NoW, At that time, Mr. Roosevelt.
dd not You have a conference or con
torouros with the members OF the Re
publican National Committee. including
Mr. Murray Crane, Mr.. Franklin MUIR
ply, Mr. William /" Ward and Mr.. Pen
rose, and discuss with them the organi-
cation OF national committee for the
year y The organization Of ma
tioual committee FOR that year"
q Yes y I think not think that
discussion Of n national committee. my
( discussion OF tho organization. was with
Mr. George Won l.. Meyer, That - why
! aid not think Mr.. Crane was on a
committee from Massachusetts, for MI
! Meyer was the man with whom / dis
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

A. did not know he contributed any.
thing
q. II you found his name u mi.
report as having contributed g.. 200
would YOU have any doubt ~ f' A
None whatever.
O.. II you found the name ~ Cta-lA.
Taft in this report as having cont~ibu'ed
$4,000. would you have any douh' anou,
IL? a. None whatever I assume vou
are reading from the official repor'
q. | am reading from tho official re.
port. \. I would not have any doub,
OF 1t whatever. 7 mean because I IA
not know anything about theee 'h'nn
you know.
q. DO you remember VINO MI John p
Dryden was? \. Senator from Nov
Jersey
@. Was ne also not tho president Of
the Proyident Life Insurance COMPANY
of New jersey? \. ] don't know He
Is a wealthy business man, | know but
| don't know his occupation
@. Prudential ~ | dom know Oh
the Rock of Gibraltar"
q. Yes. \. do remember H.
g II You found that Re was re
United states Senator and president n
the Rock OF Gibraltar who oontr,
hutod $4,000. YOU would not have any
doubt Of the accuracy OF that A. Nom.
Whatsoever
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

The Wines have not | have only
begun. n my autobiography had been
written as an appeal TO the voters OF
Sew York state to get rid Of tho
dominance Of Mr. Barnes In politics in
Sew York state ! should have mentioned
him I never mentioned Mr. Barnes In
any unhlud way ~ could avoid doing 50
ard srrupul0u-iy IN tho Autobiography
RETAINED from making any attack on
~" man unless u was impossible to
avoid doing It aud then I made II as
mild al the facts would permit
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24
Picking out the BOsses.

\ very interesting line of testimony
was developed when Mr.. wins began to
question tho Colonel as to the member
ship of the Republican National Com
mittec of 1904. naming each man and
asking the Colonel II he had considered
that man to be a boss.
IL was interesting in that Col. Roose-
velt's private opinion of the distinguished
Republican leaders with whom he
worked for many years was frankly re-
vealed He considered that Franklin
Murphy of New Jersey was boss. Ger
tainly William l.. Ward OF Wetchester
county was a boss-and the Colonel EN-
phssized that with glee. But he was
very careful to say that the term boss
meant one thing in one locality and
a totally different thing in another.
Mr.. WINS WAS prompt TO ask II Col.
RooeeYelt considered MYron T. Herrick
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

~
q Before we ge. 70 the many and
hahtually' I want 10 ask you this one
question. Did you disagree with wha,
YOU said Mr.. Barnes said to such an
extent as to regard him as an undesra-
bic compa Mon. comrade. associate and
friend 10 be invited TO your dinner Ia
ble7 A. I did not.
q. In order that there shall be no
doubt with regard TO these converse
| lions, You say many occasions A. Many
occasions.
@ DO YOU mean in the year 1899 >
A. ] believe ] know that some Of them
were in the year 1899. But they were
while was Governor and while was
President. I think that one Of them
| took place al the Fort Orange Club
at Albany. but what year could not
say.
.. How many times during the year
1899 did YOU see Mr.. Barnes alone +?
| A. | do not know
@ DO you know whether il was one
two or three \. saw him on sew
eral occasions that year. but could not
say how many, 1t would be possible
that ! was talking with him with other
people in the executive chamber. and
! ! would not know whether you would
say II was conversation with him alone
or conversation with other people. When
1t was In the executive chamber It mus,
have been In all probability alone.
| G IL Mr.. Barnes were to show by his
diary that he never had but one CONVEX
sation with you alone. would you say
he was wrong? A. | would.
| Q. Now, have you any memora ndum
or minutes which fix the time. place,
| dates or appointments or conversations
| with Mr.. Barnes alone? a. have not
| pI,,,
with regard 10 those conversat ons at
| all? A. No: have reams of such con-
versations with all kinds OF people.
| Q. You are prepared TO swear that
| you had dozens OF such conversations
| with Mr., Barnes? A. I will say Il dozen
I think ! said dozens OF such conversa-
tons, but that would include could
not tell you the exact number OF con-
versations ! had with him while I was
Governor, ] could not tell you the exac,
number of conversations I had with him
! while | was President
, The foregoing lines naturally provide
| for Mr. WINS foundation for asking
Col, Roosevelt why. II ne believed Barnes
to be such bad man, did he invite
him as an official and private guest so
often,
And here the Colonel simply ruined
the gooI order OF the court room by his
naive explanation that Barnes was a
DR.. Jekyll and Mr., Hyde and that he
had labored to bring out the Dr. Jekyll
Identity,
Justice Andrews had to threaten To
clear the court room because OF the
furry of laughter
.. DO YOU remember inviting Mr.
Barnes to visit you in Washington ?
\. remember; | think on more than
ono occasion think I did in Al
bsny.
O. As hos, of tho White House? A.
NJ host Of the white House
q. You extended your hospitality n
Mr. Barnes 4 | extended my hospi-
tally tn Mr., Barnes
=, And to Mrs. BarneS a. we'll? 4
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24
Didnt Hesitate 70 Dictate.

Q. You did not hesitate to dictate TO
them whom you insisted upon as hav-
ing chairman of that committee? A.
did not hesitate TO dictate to them that
7 would not have Mr.. Penrose and would
have Mr. Cortelyou.
q. Who was tho chairman OF the
national convention OF 1905? A. Do you
mean tho permanent or temporary chair
man?
q. mean the temporary chairman
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24
7 should IlKe 20 see II.
Gives Credit 20 Heney.

Q. Was that not tho result OF the
campaign which had been started by
Mr. Perry Belmont, among others In
New York State and Mr.. Heney in
California for publicity OF contributions ?
a. | do not remember Mr.. Perry Bel
mont's part in IT, but know Mr.. Heney
had started such a campaign.
q. The matter was then up was Il not
for consideration both by tho Legts-
lature OF the state OF New York and In
the national Congress? A. don't knew
about tho Legislature of the state OF
New York. but ] know | brought II up
for consideration by the national Con-
gress.
q Prior TO that time had you ever,
on your own initiative or on sugges-
ton of any ono else, ever called the
attention OF the voters OF this country
to the dangers OF invisible government
and the necessity for publicity OF polit,-
cal contributions? A. Well my memory
would not quite permit me TO answer
you absolutely ] spoke OF Il In several
speeches about that time but whether
those speeches were before or after
my messages to which I referred ! can.
not tell.
.. II was during tho last year OF your
Presidency, was II not? a. II was dur.
ing the last years. think that the
legislation was passed prior TO 1908
| think II was passed two or three
years earlier. but ! cannot tell the ex.
act date.
.. You mean as to the publicity OF
campaign expenses? A. Tho publicity
Of the campaign expenses
q, II that Is so what WAS the neces
sitY Of your having sent in n spccia
message on that subject In 1908? A
Because the publicity Of campaign ex
penses was only a feature. and n small
feature Of tho evils against which
was warning
Mr. Ivins led the Colonel into a col
loNuy concerning the Democratic leader
ship of tho state and what he knew
about Republican-Democrat combins
tons while he Was Governor.
q, NOW, returning to the question O
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

Q. You used the word just now that
you did not in your autobiography make
any wanton attack upon Mr.. Barnes or
upon any one. A. or upon ane one
When attacked Mr.. Barnes It was not
wanton.
@ DO you know whether or not you
refreshed your mind sufficiently 10 have
produced that approximate identity OF
phraseology between your autobiography
and your testimony? A. Do you mea n
identity because OF my having 10 re-
fresh my mind?
q. Yes A. II In not.
y, Then II Is because Of your ex-
cellent memory. is II? A. ] don't know.
@. Then your memory was excellent
enough to have enabled you 10 utilize
practically the same phraseology? A. !
do not know I have.
At this point Mr. Twin. read from
Col. Roosevelt's autobiography.
.. Was there any law at that time
50 far as you know. providing for the
publicity OF campaign contributions? A.
There was not.
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24

4
| Ana IN Mrs parn.s n. we'll And I
thini, I ala I'm Albany. Int / am not
sure.
a And vou djd tina, in snite OF the
fart nj tho invisible eunire and nnistr,Ist
Of The neonlee A. In spite of the fact
n, bis ,uis,rus, ~ ,bo nconle
q Aud I'm splte of the fact OF the
,nvisible emnirce A | do not know
mat Thought of ,nyisIble empire in con-
nnrtion with him a, that time. can
NOT Toll Won vhether whom I was In
viting him thought of the invisible
enpire or not.
O DO Won remember whether or not
in the matter complained of you made
reference TO invisible empire in 1899
and 1900? A. 1 have told YOU do
not believe I used the words "invisi-
BILE empire" until much later than that,
but do not even know I used the
words invisible empire" until 1910.
q. 10 you remember that you have
used the words invisible government
during the years 1899 and 1900? A..
I do not remember using those words.
q. Did YOU ever have any CONVERSE
ton with Mr.. Barnes about Invisible
government while you were Governor
n. About Tn" TACT or Invisible govern
rent as being combination between
the dominant ana controlling FACTORS IN
two parties In the interest OF CROOKED
business ana corrupt po,ltics y snouIa
not 90 NOT nelleVe tnat ! oiscusscu
tne phrase eNactIy AZ you put IL with
MN .-
" iVu gu .nh. ", rcsporse 70 you'
ln,erilaI e'i TOT an eApress'o,, on r'En.,
.; w" YOU ~. uiu .,at
the franchise tax hill
Here Mr.. WINS quoted from MT.
houseVeits AUTOBIOGRAPHY.
Mr. NlhS 'rt"dlhs' ~ "ouln oe An
entire nisoak" 10 suppose mat Mr
RATS heutenan's were either all BAD
MN or an lhruehced by unworthy mo-
tlVes' lie was constantly doing faVors
tor men. ne won the gratitude OF many
soou men. IN inc country districts es-
peclally mere We're many places where
ms machints Included IN" majority OF
/ the pest cltlzehs' me leadlnE ana SUN
stah'lal citizens among the IhhdoIan's
some OF ms strongest ana most eIncleht
| lieutenants were disinterested men OF
/ high character" This Is correct, is It?
The witness-That is correct
/ .. Now | call your attention TO the
/ last sentence: some OF his strongest
and mos: efficient lieutenants Were d. *
4 interested men OF high character Did
B YOU include Mr. Barnes IN that list ?
/ A. When / wrote this book?
Q. Dld you include him In that list
when you formed your opinion when
YOU were I'm Albany as Governor? A.
, This sentence was not written while
was at Albany as Governor. II was
4 written i'm ioIo ard 1qI3 when I wrote
] tho book and ,bcn dId not irclud.
/ Mr.. Bsrres
F'"S y" "''"'"
. Then VIII ask you this. II YOU
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24


ton to tho Presidency in 1904? A. I
was.
G. DO you remember who constituted
the National Republican Committee In
the year 1909 y. | do not remember
all the names. ! remember some OF
them.
q, suppose | revived your memory
Mr.. Cortelyou was chairman. A. lie
was chairman. chose him.
@ You chose him? \. chose him
q. Mr. Charles r. BROKER was from
Connecticut, was he not? \. remem-
Der that he was from Connecticut.
q Was hc what was known as a boss
IN Connecticut? \. | do not know.
understood not, but he may have been.
g. Delaware was represented IN the
National Committee by John Edward
Addicks. was It not A. don't know.
q. Try to refresh your memory Isn't
II n fact that Mi Addicks was on that
committee? \. ! don't remember
whether he was or not. lie was called
Gas AdiiCks
q. That was because OF his influence
as "A corporate magnate, was II not'
y. 7 don't know why
@. In connection with gas companies
A. | don't know why 10 was so-called,
but | remember the nickname.
q DO Won remember who represented
Idaho In tho Republican National Conn
mittce IN the fan Of 1894 when YOU ran
for the Presidency A No, | do not.
q. Would n refresh your memory y I
referred 70 MIR W y Hepburn A Nes,
| remember It was iIcN burn.
q. Was ltcyhuru a boss! A don't
know whether they had a boss or not.
! don't know.
q, WHO Represented Illinois IN the
/ National Committee \ don't know
4. -
The sun. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1833-1916, 1915-04-24
ROOSEVELT READS PART
OF PRESIDENTIAL MESSAGE

When The afternoon session hogan Col.
Roosevelt was permitted 10 read from
his message 4, Congress I'm 1906 IN
which he advocated law prohihlt'ns
corporations from contributing 20 the
campaign funds NJ any party.
lie read ~ with Eusto. emphasizing
its points with uplIt.oi fo-cnugcr and
with s. tpp,ug Jaw as ho turned FUN on
the jurors.
Mr. WINS attempted 20 get him 20
say hat he had not advocated a law
prohibiting tho publication OF individual
contributions FOR campaign purposes, but
the Cu.one! seemed 20 detect "A Colored
person IN the woodp!le and answered
that he thought he had. but he couldn';
be sure
All this, Of course, was leading up 10
the cross-eNanl'nRt!on Mr. lv'ns had IN
mind as regards the ColoneNs accept
ance Of the big contributions OF 1904.
Mr.. WINS read from records OF the
State Legislature TO show that Comhina-
tons OF Democrats and Republicans
had existed In Roosevelt's term as Gov
crnor. The Colopel said he was quite
aware o. !, and that he had used, when
ever possible, such legislators for a
good c'd N furtherarce of the public
veal and that he had svcr,as'InGly LAM
bastcd them when they tried TO put
something over on the people IN the
cause of righteousness. ThHrcupon Mr.
WINS produced list OF the members
OF the Republican National Committee
of 1904 and urlimbcred new battery of
guns.