New-York tribune., 1910-01-17
ARGUE SOCIALISM
LITTLETONIN DEBATE
Morris HiHquit His Opponent
IN NezC Rochelle Forum.

Martin w. Littleton, the lawyer, and
Morris Hillquit, the East Side socialist
leader. met yesterday in a mighty debate
on the subject of Socialism and Individ-
ualism" before the largest audience that
ever attended a session of the New Ro-
chelle Peoples Forum.
Both struck powerful blows and aroused
enthusiasm among their respective ad-
herents. and both at times broke down
what might be called party lines or caused
differences to be forgotten. and drew forth
thunders of applause. in which every one
In the audience seemed to participate.
Preceding the debate the speakers were
entertained at dinner byt Justice Martin j.
Keogh, the founder of the forum. Miss
Anne Morgan. daughter of j. Pierpont Nor
gan, and Mrs. Littleton were deeply in
terested hearers of the discussion.
Mr.. Hillquit was accompanied by num-
ber of East Side socialists, who were en-
thusiastic in their demonstrations. The
presiding officer was Conde B. Pallen, edi-
tor of THE Catholic Encyclopaedia
Among those present was Professor Isaac
F. Russell, of New York University, who
is to debate with Mr.. Hillquit on Social
ISM in Brooklyn next Sunday.
Mr.. HilIquit said that socialism was not a
fad. but that it had forty millions of fol-
lowers.
1T is a great moral wave which has been
going on for fifty years and 1t unltes all
classes of men and women. without regard
to race and condition. for the economical
emancipation of mankind" he added
Under our present industrial system Ia
Dor is deprived of the machinery of pro-
duction. The modern workman can no
longer depend upon his strength and skill
He must have the use of the machine. fac
tory and raw material to produce any COM
modify, and, since they are in the hands OF
capitalists and trusts. he must apply to
them for permission to work and live.
SOCIAL INIQUITY.
This has developed a state of the most
trying social iniquity. The modern tools of
production have been created and developed
by the concerted efforts of the working peo-
pie for many generations past and present
Socialism proposes the collective owner
ship of these necessary instruments of in
dustry."
Mr.. Littleton said that socialism pro-
posed to reverse the present civilization
and therefore it was necessary for those who
advocate it to give reasons TO justify it.
Before you accept what Mr.. Hillquit
says" he continued. ''you must ask him for
the proof of it. The struggle for liberty
has been going on for thousands of years
The conquest has been for five great prin-
ciples which may briefly be described as
follows:
First. men wanted to be free-that
is. they wanted to be protected so that
other men could not assan their rights or
take their property; second, they demanded
personal liberty. which might be described
he ioJ,t
the earth; third, the struggle for religious
liberty; fourth, economic liberty, namely
the right of the individual TO own, control
and do as he pleased with his private prop
erty, and fifth, came the fight for political
liberty, that is. the right to take part in
the government and help to make the laws
which we must obey
THE socialists want TO destroy one of
these five great liberties-economic liberty
They do not want to take our personal lib
erty, because if they were successful they
would have TO give up their own. Mr.. Hill
Quit says that the socialists believe that it
is necessary to take away our private prop
erty. If they buy 1t what would they do
with the fellows who got the money for their
property? Would they allow them 10 in
vest it again? If so, then We would have
only swapped dollars.
Il have found no writer who has been
able TO tell me how the socialists were
going to run the government in case they
got it. They all say that it is too early to
discuss that subject; they tell us to wait
until they get the government and then
they will show US. They say to you that
they are not architects. l suppose then
they are simply what might be called house
movers Their policy is one of disorgani-
They he hut
they cannot rebuild it,"
When Mr.. Littleton says that socialism
would destroy economic freedom" con-
tinued Mr.. Hillquit, Il suppose he means
the freedom of the master and the capital
list, not of yhe worker. Is the worker free
to-day? Oh yes, he is free to choose his
master. If he doesn't want to work for
John Smith, he can work for John Brown
The condition of the workman of to-day
has not been advanced much over that of
the days of feudalism. when all he got for
his services was his food. his bed and
clothing. The workman of to-day has a
master in the capitalistic class and he is
bound to work for him, and he is not al
ways fed and clothed.
TAKING OF PROPERTY.
Would socialism be just?' asks Mr.. Lit
Teton: would it be just to take private
property% The people are asking this about
Mr.. Rockefeller and many others who
have made vast fortunes by taking the
profits which belong to hundreds of thou
sands of workers. 1 ask, is it just to build
up these tremendous fortunes at the ex-
pense of the people?
But Mr.. Littleton quotes from my book
and wants to know about the future. 7
point to the Civil War. The negro slaves
in many cases were the chief possession
of many in the South. The agitation for
emancipation came on. l suppose at that
time there were some members of the bar
who said that such course would be con-
fiscation, but after a great struggle Lin
coin issued his proclamation, and the prop
erty of the slave owners was taken from
them. BY what? BY confiscation."
Mr. Hillquit said that the socialists might
pension off Mr.. Rockefeller. and allow him
all the biscuits and milk that he needed
but that they would not allow men like
him to hoard up millions for generations
to come while under their very eyes ba bies
were starving.
But Mr.. Littleton has asked contin-
ued Mr. Hillquit, "how will we do it? When
the American colonies rose up and threw
off the woke of Great Britain nobody asked
how many counties were to be established
in Ohio or how many constables it would
be necessary TO elect for New Rochelle So
u-a n YOU now that We SOciaIict. NO