Waterbury evening Democrat., 1907-02-27
HARTMAN UP
He Refused 10 Answer Question and the Commission Said
 He Must Do So
s2,O22,o0O FOR ROAD

New York, Feb 27.-After two days of steady examination E. H. Hartman, was again placed on the stand when the interstate commerce commission resumed it's investigation of the Hartman lines to-day. It was understood, however, that his exam ination to-day would be brief. Just before adjournment last evening MT Kellogg, of counsel for the govern ment. said that he had only few more questions to put to MT Harri- man, but that he would prefer they go over until to-day as the hearing had already been prolonged until a late hour
 MT Hartman took the witness chair little after ten o'clock, and in answer to MT Kellogg, testified that the Union Pacific had purchased the St Joe and Grand Island since last year. The price paid was $2,- |022,000 and the witness had owned the property and sold it to the Union Pacific.
 Objection was made to questions as to what he paid for 1t, and the witness declined to answer. The commission ruled that he must and there was the usual formal re- fusal.
 The witness said the St Joe and Grand Island was not a parallel and competing line.
 MT Kellogg asked of whom the New York Central stocks acquired by the Union Pacific were bought. MT Hartman said they were bought in the open market.
 Were you or any of your asso- ciates interested in the sale at the time of the Union Pacific purchaser pursued Mir Kellogg.
 MT Milburn objected and MT Har- lriman declined to answer. MT Kellogg asked the witness if | 1t was not a fact that of the 22,0OO,- 900 stated to have been spent on the Chicago and Alton $2,274,000 was made up of car trust certificates and one million a loan from Kuhn, Loeb & company so that the expenditures on the line out of the new securities sold were only about 18,OO0,00O MT Hartman said that possibly the figures were correct. He simply knew that 22,000,O00 had been spent on the line.
 The witness was then excused and Otto Kahn of Kuhn, Loeb 6 company took the stand.
 | MT Severance questioned Mir Kahn as to the organization of his firm and led him back to the days of the re. organization of the Union Pacific.
 The firm of Kuhn, Loeb & Co were bankers to the reorganization com. mittee and Mir Severance piled the witness with questions concerning the stock issuance, bonding and gen. eral handling of the old Union Pa. cific and that issued by the reorgan. ization. Mir Kahn replied from printed reports and for some time the proceedings were confined to a recital of the details.
 Mir Kahn said that both himself and Jacob H. Schiff remained on the Union Pacific board until year ago
 He desired to say that in going on the board they did so because they felt it duty to the public which held the securities. At the same time they wished it understood that they did so as bankers and at no time ceased to be bankers and that in dealins with the Union Pacific they did so a, arms length. At no time had they ever charged the Union Pacific more \ ha lsan nl- t1ar ~t<.v and often rendered valuable services | for nothing.
 About year ago they felt that the necessity which caused them to go on the board had passed. Also the demands of their own banking busi' ness had increased; the credit of the Union Pacific had become firmly fixed and he and Mir Schiff resigned from the board of the Union Pacific.
 Mir Kahn said his firm had pur. chased the Southern Pacific stock control which afterward passed tc the Union Pacific. but he would mol admit that they bought it with the understanding that the Union Pacific would take it. He insisted that nc such agreement existed. the only un. derstanding being that 1t was to bt offered to the Union Pacific. Mir liar
 riman. he thought. favored the pur chase. but his firm took big risk in buying the Southern Pacific stock as the remainder of the board might not approve its purchase and il
 would be left on their hands.
 While MT Kahn was on the stand