New-York tribune., 1907-05-13
DEBATE ON SOCIALISM.
CLEWS rs. KIRKPATRICK.
Banker and Socialist Meet IN VcrbaI
Contest.

[ OHtGSt.
Henry Clews. the banker, and George r. Kirk
patrick, the socialist writer and orator. debated
the question Capitalism Socialism" at the Co
1urbia Theatre Brooklyn yesterday afternoon.
before audience that filled the house. Edwin
Markham presided and expressed himself briefly
when he introduced the speakers. being much
IN favor Of such method OF attempting TO get at
the truth OF great questions.
The audience was TO all appearances. strongly
socialstic. Tho Unity Club. Of Manhattan. was
represented by a delegation headed by Miss Eliza
beth Gurley Flynn. and hung from its boxes red
banners tied with green ribbons Mr.. Clews re-
ceived generous applause but the real floor shak-
tng. rafter ringing outbursts came when Mr. Kirk
patrick attacked the capitalist class and all that
this IS supposed to represent TO the socialists.
Like most debates. this appeared TO leave each
side more firmly convinced than before of the
truth OF its tenets Mr.. Clews. after asserting
that from the explanations Of socialists them
selves It is difficult 10 understand just what So
Cialism is declared that It viii destroy freedom
~ Initiative and reduce Industrial life 10 a dead
jewel Of mediocrity- He pictured with apprehen-
sion New York under soCalistic form Of gov
erunent.
Nj kirkpatrick when his turn came said that
The only freedom possible is under socialism and
that the wage system is industrial despotisru."
lie said that wherever municipal enterprises have
failed II has been because "a few capitalists have
been al work corrupting the authorities"
And so # went. q Roland for an Oliver or At
least. a supposittious Roland Mr.. Kirkpatricks
speech was enlivened by his habit OF making
startling statement and then turning suddenly
upon Mr.. Clews with the exclamation: Now Nr.
C1ews. a representative of the capitalist class
:snt that so?' Again he would say we have
here capitalist and he has spoken for his class
But can he deny what havo Just sad?'
POSER FOR MR.. CLEWs
NJ. Clews had made a point Of his contention
that the American workman under the present COM
pe:itive regime IS free agent and his master.
Nr. Krkpa rick. when he got around TO this in his
answers declared that the workman is ruled by
MS employer. and said he thought man good
enough 10 rule another. JIe wheeled around on
Mr. Clews and, pointing his forefnger 81 the
white haired hnancier, thundered forth: Mr.
CIsws, # YOU think that You are good enough TO
rule your fellow men. even though Nthey are mem
hers OF the downlrodd5n working classes. raise
your night hsnd"'
Nr. Clews smiled and flushed a bit under this
unexpected verbal assault. When he leaned back
IN his chair without moving his hands, the speaker
turned toward his audience. Cheers and shouts
and stamping feet mingled with the patter OF a
thousand hands while the red flags nuttered from
the hands Of Miss Flynn. the Unity Clubs Joan OF
Arc Meanwhile. Mr. kirkpatrick bowed low. II
al very like a play.
Mr. CieUs. who spoke for an holr and ten min
utes. outlined the advantages Of individUalism as
conducive 10 the effort Of each citizen He said
that by Joining issue fatty between socialism ana
indvidualism he would avoid all the cloud of wordy
economic distinctions among the various brands Of
Fcurierism Christian socialism. German socialism.
etc He paiG his respects to the agitators
follows:
No Now Ehe 1o lave no gnfe2dineSs 5sa T9eTeT @
sadly out OF place in this grand Republic. as he
may be- do say thar his position is hut TOO
at-.a-. o ~ M liisl.GeIe asta'gI or
feiorile' he@ ne sees ulat he Is beaten as n
i5at which you talked about IS NOT modern so
..,l-o
socialism and sketched the history Of the coun-
try. which. he said, had its inception in freedom
and the rights Of the Individual. lie called munic-
ilal ownership form of socialism, and said that
al the root OF the difficulty IS the failure Of any
form Of eiyI service get the right man for the .
right place, process which, he asserted, IS /.
worked 3ut 10y az eliminatve process under in 7
eyidualisr and It's consequent struggle. He con- .
timed:
Imagine New York under municipal ownership /
oi public utilities. We should then have fastened /
upon MS 3 more colossal and more corrupt Tam /
would thrive beyond all dreams OF ayarice- Let
whore public ownership has been tried on a larger
scale and Under more favorable conditions than
DIsCLAI3S MUNICIPAL OWNERSHIP
M kirkpatrick shook hands with Mr. CIeW.s
when the latter had finished. The socialist
launched into his speech by saying that Mr. CIews
Iad devoted the last twenty minutes Of his speech
10 municipal ownership which is not socialism"
RAID Nr Kirkpatrick. and II can prove that all
NJ c'aWs's arguments fan 10 the ground" lie
went on 1o attempt 10 prove the clamp meta
f'r ' saving that the capitalist grInGs down the
"ofAilsnan- giving him 5lst enough wages to
http hiAH alive. The capitalist. said Mr. Kirkpat-
TEX takes enough for fat living for himself and
ire excess is ovcrprodueton, for which a foreign
lh'Fkei must be founc. He sand that competi-
"'' !- tie great evil TO-DAY. ana went on:
h. - principle Of destruction from competition
1"erI powerful rivals Is shown in AIR. CleWss
ffe M NJ o. ne New York Stock Exchange. When
etts New York Stock Exchange sixty-tve years
% and very powerful q rival appeared and within
r1.I Years the new brokers organization had
tallGlea oHe-half Of the trade. Their the more
s-1ielos members of the old orsaniza ton that
F4e4 .gmpetiton would ruin both. Nj CleWs in
.ts 5o"k. ''IWenty-eight Years in Wall Street ia
1Riel!l-s lIls, says tIa: they forced
1tllJr 10 prevent the ruin OF both"
10 prevent overprOdUctiCn with modern ma
t+i.tIt capitalists have organized the trust, thai
'.+ oI INC admitted purposes OF the trust. But
~ lst cannot cope with the problem Of iuterua-
.ohe5 competition. Tie manufacturers organized
- q uQst must keep the mills running in order to
LAX dividends on stocks already issued. over
production is inevitable.
in conclusion he said: IF the working man
u'esh know enough 10 destroy this system no de-
SFtEfs TO be ruled by the capitalist class"
.3AitSF me GeDafe Mr.. markham about ~
e. q ule assembly Mr. C1ews had been invifc5 bI.t
aFla.