New-York tribune., 1907-03-06
CLASH I'm THAW TRIAL.
JUDGE REBUKES JEROME.
Alienist Gires Defendants Version
of Shooting.

day. The verbal encounter between Justice Fftz-
Gerald and Mr.. Jerome thrilled the spectators
IN the courtroom into absolute silence
It was during the cross-examinatiOn Of Dr.
Charles G. Wagner. alienist for the defence.
as to what Thaw had said in the Tombs during
his examination that the narration Of Thaw's
remembrance OF the shooting came out
Il remember walking toward the elevator"
the witness said Thaw told him. Then I saw
Stanford White. and walked toward him. ]
think remember shooting him."
Thirty days have passed since the actual
taking OF testimony began. The finish for the
direct examination IS not in sight. Friday mag
see the end. but it is expected that the defence
will probably not complete its direct examina-
ton until the middle Of next week When Mr..
Jerome finishes with DR.. Wagner, Mrs. William
Thaw. the prisoners mother. will replace him
In the witness chair.
All connected with the case are beginning TO
show the signs of the high tension under which
they are Iaboring. The defendant was not the
least interested of those who heard the District
Attorneys retorts and the severe arraignment
that the court gave him He showed more eX-
element than at any other time since the trial
began. His eyes fairly buIged and his facial
muscles twitched TO a marked degree. He half
arose from his chair but Daniel O'ReiIly seized
his hand drew him back. talked earnestly 20
him and finally quieted him.
After Mr. Jerome had obtained Thaw's state
ment regarding the killing Of White. he fOl-
lowed It up by asking about the DEFENDANTS
memory. DIR. Wagner said 1t seemed TO be good.
except on the number of shots fired and tha
events Immediately subsequent to the first fir
ing Of the revolver. After the shooting Thaw's
memory was also at fault. as he did not recall
many Of the facts connected with his arrest and
Imprisonment in the station house.
NOT VICTIM OF PAREsIs.
The early examination Of Dr Wagner lst
up TO the question whether the alienists had
found any Indication of paresis in Thaw's con-
dItfOn when they had examined him IN tbs
Tombs. The alienist said that an especial eN-
animation had been made with that point IN
view. and no signs of paresis had been found
in Thaw's case. Then in an argument to
the admissIbility in evidence Of the GOnversa-
tions In the prison between Thaw and the wit
ness the District Attorney made the assertion
that so far as the evidence Of the defence
showed up to this time there was nothing %
rontrovert the presumption IN law that Thaw is
insane at the present time if he was insane both
before and after he shot Stanford White
DR. wagner proved so hostile at this point
/ that Mr.. Jerome took him TO task The witness
/ frequently refused to give direct reply ana
/ finally the District Attorney asked:
why do you duck the question:"
! Justice FftzGeraId raped for order and had
the remark stricken from the record. Mr.. Del
mas went TO his witnesses aid, and, after there
/ had been considerable debate. Mr.. Jerome re-
/ piled. somewhat warmly:
| But here is an expert scientist being very
| desirous Of excluding information submit IL
is so unusual that 1t bears so strongly on the
/ credibility Of this man. that I am entitled TO
/ ask him about it.
Mr.. Jerome interrupted while Mr. Delmas was
arguing the point TO say:
This is an argument on the Ob1ectOn' ana
not a stump speech
! This remark caused Mr. Delmas 10 exhibit
the first show Of temper. and he replied:
Those offensive remarks simply lower the
/ dignity of the court. and submit are improper
/ in every way. / do not say that by way of re-
/ sentiment but they have been SO often indulged
in against the witness this morning. and now
sought To be indulged in against counsel. they
/ do not assist the Jury in arriving at proper
verdict and do not assist your honor in the
duties which are incumbent upon YOU"
MIR. JEROME's CONTENTION
what is the presumption as to the defends
ants condition now?' asked the court.
.sThe legal presumption, sir is that he Is IN
sane in view of the facts before the court. Tho
presumption continues" replied Mr.. Jerome.
do YOU admit the fact?' asked Mr.. Delrnas-
"I say I'm view OF the evidence the evidence IS
he is insane replied the District Attorney.
do YOU admit the fact?' pressed Mr.. Delmas.
What fact?" asked Mr.. Jerome.
oThe fact that he was insane." continued
counsel
II didn't say that" replied the prosecutor.
Then how can you insist that a fact con-
tinues to exist when you deny the fact itself?''
/ VFr DaIu1aS
It say your witness swOre II existed; that =
all there is before the court" said Mr.. JerOraA
What is the presumption nOw2' the court
asked.
so your honor is gOing'- began Mr.. Js-
rome.
/ Il am not saying what am going 70 do. You
I go on and argue. I ask you for Information
What was the presumption?" asked Justice
FitzGerald-
/ IF these facts testified to are true. the pre-
sumption Of law Is that the defendant Is now
insane" replied the District Attorney.
do you admit it?'' again asked counsel
/ II neither admit it nor deny 1t. am seeking
/ TO get information as far as your doctors can
/ give II to me- was the prosecutors reply
/ Are these jurors empanelled 20 decide any
thing except the question OF insanity on the
night Of the homicide. or sanity?' asked the
court
rs your honor seeking information on the
subject from me?'' asked SIr. Jerome.
Il am not seeking information that sue
ject. I am directing your attention to that
The indictment charges offence committed
\ at a given time. AS understand. this insanity
is introduced here for the purpose Of showing
/ that az that time he was insane and that Is
the limitation within which this trial Of this
Indictment has got to continue replied tho