The Saint Paul globe. (St. Paul, Minn.) 1896-1905, 1902-10-22

A. We had other interests, and there
was a matter beyond the ordinary pusls
ness interests. My position was that OF
the executive head of a corporation, the
existence of which was in Jeopardy if that
raid succeeded. If other parties desire to
buy the stock of the Securities company,
price that would secure to them the shares
the price that the owners would be
willing to accept. And it would be very
difficult for them to do it. We have
tried to make it as difficult as we could,
In fair business way, for such raids to
prove successful.
The Hartmann Pierce Holdings.
Q. Well, now, as matter of foresight
and of prudence, would not you look to
it that the stock of the Northern Securi-
out to a hostile interest? A. haven't
the control of stocks there. haven't the
control of who should own it or might own
1t. l think some of the owners who have
slow to dispose of their shares without
consulting their associates Probably out
of LOO or 1000 Northern Securities
shareholders know the names OF twenty
G. Is there any block Of stock held
by any one individual larger than that
held by Hartman and Pierce2 A. No
sir, That is the largest holding, II 1t is
held by Hartman and Pierce.
O. l understood Col. Clough to say
that it stands on the books OF the North
ern Securities company. in the name OF
announced that it was placed as security
for a bond or debenture-some security OF
the Oregon Short Line. / have not eX-
amined the books for several months. II
was issued to Hartman and Pierce,
think, as individuals, as far as the rec
ord of it.
O. About what is the outstanding stock
many millions? A. Oh, three hundred
and fifty or sixty; possibly more, and Il
may be four or. FIVE millions less.
haven't looked at the totals for some
time.
@. Well, if Hartman and Pierce were
ITO double their holdings, they would come
close to the mark of having one-half OF
the stock outstanding, would they not? A
They would have some difficulty probably
in doubling their holdings; If they did
they would have to pay price that the
owners would be willing to sell at The
shares are held largely by people who
have been interested in the Northwest fol
a long time, and 1 think have reason to be
pleased with their investment and would
be slow to sell.
O. Wen. then, that is the true safe
guard and security of the Northwest in
terest the fact that the stock, or a ma
jority of the stock of the Northern Securl-
development of this section at heart and
would not be willing to sell? A. And the
line of railway is a matter of self-interest
with them; that is their business inter
upon the growth and value of their prop
erty, and 1 think investments, that is.
business investments, are always con-
trolled by business reasons, and the pur-
chase and sale would be one of price.
Q. Mr.. Hill, yesterday you stated that
but a very small per cent of the inter-
state business of the Northern Pacific and
the Great Northern could be affected by
these two companies in any way with
out the cooperation of other companies.
A. Yes, sir.
Competition Not Destroyed.
@. 1 think you mentioned 10 per cent;
that was in answer to an inquiry touch
ing the competitive business of the two
railways. 1 would like to have you eX-
plain what sort of business you refer to
by this particular business that would be
affected by the two companies.
A I meant to make it reasonably plain,
and will try to do so. The business al
luded to was the interstate business on
the lines of the Northern Pacific or on
not-the interstate business was not
controlled; that is, the rate upon which
was not controlled or affected by the
rates made by other lines. For instance,
the Great Northern both reached and
some other line also reached: 1t would
be necessary at that station for all three
roads to make the rate. No one or two
other; and in stations Of that kind feel
very certain that business of that de-
scription on the line of the Northern Pa
cific and Great Northern together will not
amount to 10 per cent of the interstate
business. Business that cannot be han
died by any third line, that is compet1-
tive between the two would not amount
to 10 per cent of the entire interstate
business. 1 feel very sure that 10 per
cent is in excess of the amount the ac-
tual figures would show;
o. Well, now, in that connection, do
you take the view that the Northern Pa
cif1c could not advance or lower the rate
where some other company had also to
take part in carrying the freight? Do
you take that view?
A A railway can always lower the
@. No matter whether it carries the
freight the entire distance or not?
matter of right, and if 1T advanced the
rate and other roads are willing to carry
it for less, it loses the business.
Must Consider Other Lines.
Q. Exactly. And if it is carrying
freight in connection with another line "a
connecting line), it can lower the rate SO
far as it's own NORTON Of the carriage is
concerned, whether the other railroad Is
willing to or not?
A. I think that practice is very I'M
common I think it might be able to do
that but If the rate is q published rate,
which the law compels, l do not know
how a railroad company would make.
published rate, and then, in connection
with another road, or known as a joint
rate reduce it's own rate below the rate
at which it was carrying the same class
of business over the same country l
think it would be rather difficult to recon-
cile it with the law.
Questioned by Mr.. Day.
At this point Solicitor General Richards
turned the witness over to w: A. Day,
special counsel for the interstate com
merce commission. After drawing from
Mr.. Hill statement of the original lines
Mr.. Day continued the cross examination:
Q. Could you give approximately, the
mileage Of the Great Northern Railway
company?
between $500 and 5000.
Q. You were speaking yesterday OF
lumber rates from the Pacific coast east,
and you mentioned meeting OF some
you, or you met them elsewhere, in which
it was agreed upon that the lumber rates
should be reduced; when was that?
A. 1 said met, on my first trip to the
Pacific coast, in the fall Of 1882 l called
together the lumbermen to try and find
out what rate would enable them to move
their lumber to the Eastern markets, to
markets east of the Rocky mountains.
@. When was it the rate of 40 cents
a hundred was put in on that lumber?
A. AS soon as our road was completed
and ready for business, which was in
1893
@. You mean by 40 cents hundred
the rate from the Pacific coast to the
Mississippi river?
A TO the Twin Cities, or to the head
of Lake Superior, or so cents to. Chi
cago. 1 think the 50cent rate was made
at that time, or very soon after.
Q. Did any of the lines meet your rate
of 40 cents to the Twin Cities?
A The Northern Pacific did, and
think at that time it was the only line.
1 know Mr.. Willard, few months before
we opened the road, said that a 65-cent
rate was an impossibility, but they
changed their mind on that subject.
rates from the Pacific coast to the Twin
Cities or to the Mississippi river, the
head of the lakes, did you make re-
duced rate correspondingly to interior
points between the Mississippi and the
Pacific?
A. Certainly; the long and short haul
would compel that, wouldn't it?
Rate lie Very | nMk