The Saint Paul globe. (St. Paul, Minn.) 1896-1905, 1902-10-22

O.. Do you state that the ACQUISITION
fic and the Great Northern will create
traffic that would not otherwise exist?
A. It has created traffic. The figures
show that the traffic has increased very
materially. Now, how. much Of that traf,
fic would have been created or would
have existed it Is very difficult for me
or anybody else to say But we know
acquisition of the Burlington to an enor-
nous extent, and we know further that
we are able, not to compete alone with
railways, for that is a small matter in
ter of rates with the ships going from
New Orleans or from Galveston, or the
railways carrying it anywhere, or In con-
nection with any other system Of trans
portation. Now, we are able to make a
rate that will take that business. And 1t
was that rate had reference to, and that
policy and that ability that I tried to
Q. Is it not true, Mr.. Hill. that the
railroads generally throughout the United
States. all Of them. have had their vol.
ume of traffic vastly increased in that
same period of time?
A. I think that you will find upon ex
animation that few of them have doubled
their export business, and we have more
than doubled out export business, and
our general business has increased SO per
cent.
NJ You say your export trahc mas oou-
A. I happen to know the export traffic.
My attention was called to it by the pub
LEGATION of the United States treasury
traordinary increase in the export bust
ness from Puget sound ports much great
er than that of any other part Of this
country The department seemed to be
quite rejOiced that they were doing so
much business.
Q. Mr.. Hill, speaking Of the Burling-
ton, it was testified to in your testimony
taken heretofore, and Migrated into this
case, that the Union Pacific interests
(meaning Mr.. Hartman and Mr.. Schiff in
particular, or one or the other) made an
effort to purchase the Burlington in the
fall, before you succeeded in negotiating
its purchase. Is that correct?
A. Mr.. Schiff told me that they had
done SO; in fact, Mr.. Hartman told me
@. And that after you had negotiated
or concluded the purchase of the Bur-
lington, Mr.. Schiff or Mr.. Hartman came
to you and wanted to participate in the
Union Pacific.
A. That was before the purchase was
completed.
@. You declined?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the Burlington system in COM
petition with the Great Northern before
the purchase of it by the Great Northern
and Northern Pacific?
A. No, sir.
O. Was it in competition with the
Northern Pacific?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it in competition with the
Union Pacific?
A. On some of it's lines. It was in
eome nee thhk ife was on
run in connection-joint tariffs.
@. You said Yesterday that the pur-
chase of the Northern Pacific by hostile
interests, or raid on the Northern Pa
cific, would have left the Great Northern
in a helpless condition.
A. A successful raid on the Northern
Pacific would have left the Great North
ern in helpless position or condition.
Under the conditions it certainly would.
I meant that inasmuch as the Great
Northern was jointly " and md os severally re-
purchase price of the Burlington stock,
that with the Northern Pacific owning a
joint interest in the Burlington stock,
one-half interest: with the Northern Pa
cific in the hands of a rival transconti-
mental line, it's interest In San Francisco
and from Omaha through the Platte val
ley to San Francisco that they would be
in the position to make the Northern Pa
cific and the Burlington (as far as they
could influence the Burlington subservi-
ent to their Southern interests, and they
from building up or aiding in the develop
ment of the business that the Great
Northern had worked long and hard to
establish.
W.T. f7Iu ufnS QueSIiOHSFs
9. Well, if, say, the Union. Pacific had
combined capital stock, they could not
have carried any lumber any cheaper to
the East or cotton any cheaper to the
have crippled you in that respect would
it?
A. How would we get to the prairies
Of Nebraska and Kansas and Iowa and
@. Just as you always have-by all
the lines of travel that are open to you.
A. They are not.
Q. Six lines out of here.
A. Any one Of those lines, or all of
them, could at any moment withdraw
their joint tariff from us. We could not
control the business a day longer than
not undertake to build up great, pernla-
nent interstate and national business, or
any such business. 1 think it would be
ridiculous-the statement of it.
@. Section of the act to regulate
commerce would give you a remedy in
that case.
A But we have learned that the act
to regulate commerce is a very peculiar
act in the way it is enforced.
@. Has either of these lines, the Chi
cago & North Western, the Chicago, Mil
Great Western, or the Chicago, .Burling-.
ton & Quincy, prior to your acquisition of
it, broken through relations with you so
that you could not get through rates to
IA A. The The Milwaukee & St. Paul for
years refused to give us joint rate at
any of their junction points between here
and Sioux City, and we cross them five
times.
Q. When was that?
A. Every time we have ever asked
@. But the question I direct to you is
this: With your exceptional facilities of
being able, by reason, as you say, Of
your low grades and the lower rates at
which you carry this transcontinental
Southern lines can afford to carry it, as
you say, how would the possession of the
Northern Pacific prevent your continu-
ing to do that business which has built
up your road and your empire?
A. The possession Of the Northern Pa
ciflc by whom? By the Union Pacific?
@. Yes.
A Because if the Union Pacific con-
trolled the Northern Pacific and controll-
ed the Burlington to the extent that the
Northern Pacific half interest would con-
troll it, we would be deprived of any ac-
cess that we could control =, for a moment
longer than the good will of another
company and we could not go on build
Ing up a business on any such condition.
And let me add further, If may, that it
would have always DESTROYED the value of
the Great Northern property or its shares
for it's shareholders. I would have rec
commended them to sell their line at once
on the best terms they could get.
0. Competition would have been so
severe you could not not have stood it.
A. It was not question of competi-
ton. It was a question of physical ina
bility to reach the market. We were
shut out from the market
CREAMERY MEN IN SESSION.