The Indianapolis journal. [volume] (Indianapolis [Ind.]) 1867-1904, 1902-01-25
MERGER IS NOT A REAL TRUST
ORIGINALLY PROPOSED TO SAFE
GUARD INTERESTS OF OLD MEN.
His Testimony Before the Interstate
Commerce Commission to Be
Continued This Morning.

CHICAGO. Jan 24-James ]. Hill, presi-
dent Of the Northern Securities Company
and president OF the Great Northern Rail-
way testified for three and One-quarter
hours before the Interstate-commerce Com
mission here to-day. In answer to ques-
tions tending to show the effect of the
community -of-interests plan rates the
veteran railroader declared that competi-
ton does not lower rates. but, on the con-
trary, he believed that it advanced them.
He declared that in the Northwest, where
for twenty years the Northern Pacific and
the Great Northern have been at peace.
where one road has agreed with the other
on rates and maintained the agreement.
rates were lower than in any other part OF
the country.
In regard to the purchase of the Burling-
ton by the Northern Pacific and the Great
Northern Mr.. Hill declared the purchase
was a matter of necessity and was not due
TO "a movement in line with the trust
idea" He testified to the formation of the
Northern Securities Company, and in doing
so gave a reason far more simple than
has generally been conjectured. There are
some old men-some very old men-inter-
ested I'm the management of the Great
Northern said he. Two OF them are over
They wanted TO form a close corporation
into which they could confide their interests
with the assurance that the road would be
managed along the lines which have made
II a success. 1t was TO have taken over
one-third OF the stock OF the road The
plan seemed to be good one, and then II
was proposed to let all the stockholders
third but all of them. The plan met with
approval, and then IL broadened into the
idea Of taking In the Northern Pacific also.
The roads had worked in harmony for
twenty years and the change in the holders
OF the securities would make no difference.
1t make no difference and will make
no difference"
Mr.. Hill talked vigorously and earnestly.
At the close of the session, when Chair
man Knapp offered to allow Mr. Hill to
leave for New York IL the latter felt that
staying In Chicago would Inconvenience
him seriously Mr.; HUI declared Una tnat ms ms
he desired in every way TO aid them to
the extent Of his ability. Chairman Knapp
thereupon said that Mr.. Hill would be again
called TO the stand tomorrow morning.
MILLER AND STUBBS TESTIFY.
Darius Miller, first vice president and
traffic manager Of the Chicago. Burlington
q Quincy. and former traffic manager of
the Great Northern, was the first witness.
In answer TO questions by Mr.. Day. Mr..
Miller stated that the Burlington was alb
solutely independent IN ''its operations and
in the making of rates.
Have you received instructions from
either Mr. Hill or Mr.. Hartman in regard
to making rates?'' Mr.. Day asked.
II have received none" the witness an
swered.
Commissioner Prouty asked the witness
to what extent the Northern Pacific and
Great Northern were competitors and Mr..
Miller put the competitive traffic at about
% per cent. He declared that the Burling-
ton was not a competitor of the Great
nd nrfh
said the two Northern roads had made
frequent agreements TO maintain rates.
put Sald ne knew OF no PSnalty ever nav
ing been imposed for violation Of agree
j. G. stubbs. traffic manager of the
Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific
that r. II. Hartman was chairman of the
board OF directors OF both roads. but that
he was appealed TO only In extraordinary
cases. Mr.. Stubbs said no such case had
arisen since his appointment, and that he
had proceeded under MS general instruc-
tions from Mr. Hartman. He said that
rates generally had been fairly we'll main
tanned. but that there had been demoraliza-
tion in Colorado and Utah He declared
that the Southern Pacific and AtchisOn,
Topeka & Santa Fe were competitors
rs there no agreement between you and
the Atchison as TO a division of the oil and
sugar traffic?" asked Mr.. Day.
None whatey,er; re replied die, the witness
but this is due TO the fact that about 50
per cent OF the crop is tributary to each
line
The witness averred that the Union Pa
cifc and the Southern Pacific were COM
pettors, although he admitted that he
believed the Union Pacific controlled the
Southern Pacific He declared that this
control could have effect rates.
ing TO the existence of competition. "A
look az the map will show You what this
competition is Mr.. Stubbs observed
parenthetically.
Further questioning by Commissioners
Prouty and Clements merely served
strengthen Mr. Stubbs in his assertion that
the joint ownership of his roads had made
absolutely no difference in the mainte-
nance or reduction OF rates
MR.. HILLS TESTIMONY.
Mr.. Hill took the stand at ? o'clock. Much
time was consumed with routine examina-
tion 10 show his official relations with the
Great Northern. Northern Pacific and Bur
lington companies. Mr.. Hill was questioned
I'm regard 10 the relation Of the Northern
Securities Company, the Burlington. the
Northern Pacific and Great Northern to
each other lie said that the Northern Sc
ourities Company owned no stock In the
Chicago Burlington & Quincy Railway
Company 0he new company, but owned
about half the stock OF the Chicago. Bur
unGton & Quincy Company (the old corpor-
atom He explained that the new company
really a union OF the three lines which
formed the old company and operated the
latter by virtue or a lease. The half Of the
stock Of the old company not owned by the
Northern Securities Company. the witness
said, was owned by the Northern Pacific
Company In the new company he said
the Great Northern and Northern Pacific
were the chief stockholders. having issued
Joint bond 70 cover the purchase price Of
the Chicago. Burlington * Quincy Railroad
Company. The two companies after stock
holders direct the directors OF the BurlIng-