The New York herald. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, 1878-01-20
His Reply to Criticism of His View Of
Endless Punishment.
A BOLD DECLARATION OF BELIEF.
Orthodox Calvinism Rejected as loath-
some and Hideous.
HIS sECTAR1AN POSITION.
Heaven and He'll Spiritual, Not
Material, Conditions.

BOSTON, Jan. Is, 1873
Henry Ward Beecher passed through Boston yester-
day on his way homo from Skowhegan, Me-, where
he be. been lecturing. The HERALD correspondent
obtained from him an interview on the subject OF his
recent and much discussed sermon on "Endless Pun
ishment" Dir. Beeoher talked chcerfully, and yet
with evident and elaboration. we'll Weighing the
effect his words Id the Of the interview he
plainly indicated his belief that his now famous ut
terances against the generally received orthodox
dogma Of eternal suffering penalty tor sin marks
tho opening OF poemc controversy OF the first mag
nitudc. Not less plainly did be speak as TO possible
severance OF tho relations hitherto held by HIM
toward the Congregational denomination. He spoke
OF the discussion Of worldwide interest," and
while he denied that be had any intention In the eel
sbraIed the lists u controvorsialist
lvowed his lntcnton, now that he had been nssacd
from many quarters, of setting forth at no very
distant date, in iull elaborate form, the position
which he had taken up. As foreshadowing OF what
ihs exposition of the Plymouth PASTORS attitude will
20 the following interview Is full OF interesting
points,
QugsrIoS-Mr Beechcr, have you taken notice of
tho discussion subject OF endless suner
Ing originated by your recent sermons
Mr.. BEEcHER- OF course have. II has been ques-
ton OF intense with me for many years and OF
gradual progress toward the views 1 now hold.
man OF IN enLuu6aStlc nature somewhat OF u poetl-
cal temperament, brought up in tho regular Cavinis.
tic faith, receives impressions that become almost
like his original nature and change is either sudden
utter or II 1t follows investigation and renec-
tion, It Is very slow. TO the publication OF my
brothers. Dr Edward Beechers articles In the Chris
tan Union, about three years ago. The History OF
Opinions Future Retrbution attribute tho final
change IN my views
q. Did you intend your recent sermon as a mani
festoP
Mr.. BEEcHER-No; not at all The sermon not
an exposition OF the subject; 1t was not intended to
argue the matter even to set It FORTH II did not
begin to cover the ground but was sermon that
sprung up IN the ordinary course OF my pastoral
ILLUSTRATIONS. 1t had Its origin In certain states OF
mind, which found In those under my and TO
which was administering II almost might be called
outcry of hope against despair In the hearts OF
thousands for whom was voice. do not regard
tho excitement which has arisen from IL as produced
by any special force that existent In the sermon.
The materials existed aiready for the Excitement and
peeded only tho spark 10 kindle them. My sermon
has gone through all the papers Of the United States
and has raised deep feeling every branch and Sec
tion Of tho Christian Church in this country.
thank God and take courage.
Q. On what ground do you standP
ETERNAL
the doctrine OF retribution-that right and wrong
transient their nature; they are eternal
hold that obedience and disobedience will forever
produce their corresponding pleasure pain. hold
that II, In tho life to come persist In the'vola-
ton of the laws Of their being, they will unquestion
ably suffer pain and penalty but there IL no evidence
whatever that they WILL and there are many presump
tions that they Will DO think that 1t DO
shown TO be a Scriptural doctrine that probation
closes with death. In another life conceive that
the experience Of this lie, which, by reason OF mans
physical environments md social influences, has not
wrought reformation or virtue, may yet In an
other sphere and under more favorable circumstances
bring men to very much higher platform and stand
point OF conduct and Of character We have TO
suppose that pain and suffering which, IN this world
OF educating nature, will have stronger
educating force hereafter and that they will be
tinued long there Is hope OF benefit in them
But all this subject would say, first, that proba
ton does not close with death; second, that the end
and aim OF retrbuton is in the first instance the ref
ormation OF the individual and safety Of society
round about Inn.
CRUEL2
The continuance Of suffering after IL Is hopeless In
respect to the individual needless In respect
sety Is simply cruelty, and cannot conceive OF any
nan OF a deeply moral ana reflective nature who
could bring himself to believe that God Will
bring into lite, He has myriads which utterly out
run all computation, under circumstances In which
they not only have no help whatsoever TO effect
moral growth but where all their surroundings arc
adverse and perverse, and allow them to continue
under such known conditions, to reproduce genera.
lions innumerabe, ind then to place them in great
hereafter where the principal feature is sucrpg and
where suffering has ceased to have any moral benefit
and continue Them there forever aud forever. This
Is create department OF tho for the pur-
poscs simply, OF suffering; but needless s6nerng Is
cruelty and any being who in1cts needless suffering
Is tyrannical.
q. But men say that not to philosophzc on
this subject but to take the statement OF scriptures
HELL, DAMNArIoy EVERLASTING USED ~ THEIR
EXACT SCIENTIFIC SENSE.
Mr.. -BEgcuER-ln reply TO that would say that
ono OF the Chief questions now Is, What Is the state
mont of scripture? admit that as It stands in our
English version and read through the medium OF
education, the Scripture apparently teaches tho
Did doctrine. But when the terms She'll" ''Damna-
ton' and ''Evorlasting" subjected TO
The crucial test OF modern scholarship they
do not bear the old meaning / doubt
whether in the days OF the Old TESTAMENT IN the
Jewish mind ut the time OF our Saviour, the sharp,
sically accurate Idea OF time and duratopcx
listed. believe that they meant by .'eterua" was
n vague ncbuIous period oi tine anu that It was
used sharp, scientific sense, but poetic,
or. rather, in gcnerazing sense; Just say "a
huudrcd,n when we only mean ''many:"
Soy .forever,n when VIC mean simply long periods OF
time.
GENERAL MODIFICATION ORTHODOX BELIEF.
And on tns subject thcre has boon an immeasur-
able change the attitude OF thinking men WITHIN
tho few past gcLcraons IL Is universally conceded
that 10 not any longer, even the most orthodox,
preach tho doctrine OF endless suffering US II was
preached 1ity twenty 1.-Two years ago. To that
effect there has certainly becu great change other
motives have been employed, and tho emphasis that
once placed upon ioar Is transferred now 10 hope
and'to a sense OF duty; and even when men do preach
Tue DOCTRINE 1t taught pniiosophically anc
5c.fpturay. The vivid figures OF scripture arc no
Logger whired around the pulpit liko a
han OF Ore IL Is usually an apologetic argument;
~ an attempt 10 JUSTIFY the Divine
administration, 10 do This inca fall back ON tho
dsscrt of SIN. and the necessity OF punishment for the
integrity OF tho moral universe. IL Is true that Just
now tho pulpits every side beginning to show
their hands and 70 pr each the doctrine; but II any
man Will compare the sermons that are now preached
with those OF Jonathan Edwards or OF Hopkins, or m