The New York herald., 1877-10-20
GRANT AND SUMNER.
Ex-Secretary Fish in Defence Of
His Late Chief.
ANOTHER VERSION OF gHs MATTER.
The Facts Regarding the Mis-.
sion to England.
WHY MOTLEY WAS REMOVED.
[sY TELEGRAPH TO THE HERALD

[By TELEGBAPH TO THE HERALD
BosroS, Oct. 10, 1877
In view OF the recent severe structures by Wendell
Phillips upon tho statement OF General Grant, when
IN Edinburgh, to a HERALD correspondent, regarding
tho course OF Senator Sumner on the st. Domingo
treaty and Of the administration In tho removal Of
Mr. Motley from the position Of Minister TO the Court
OF ST. james, your representative lo-day waited upon
Mr. Fish, who In attendance here upon the Episcopal
Convention to learn his Of tho matters When
informed OF the OF Mr Phillips remarks the dis
ungushec ex.Secretary OF Staio said that with regard
to the alleged negligence of the late Mr. Sumner
while Chairman OF the Foreign Affairs COMMITTEES, It
was TACT that susceptible OF proof from sbe
Senate records that drafts OF treaties from eight to
eleven In NUMBER remained IN tho hands OF the
mitsee for several months; some OF them. nearas
Mr. Fish could remember. for more than two years.
Mr. Fish did not mpute this delay Of public business
TO negligence ON the part Of Mr. Sumner. Tho iacts
however, that delayed together
with another fact that a!ter Mr. Summers retiracy
the entire batch of treaties disposed OF In less
than tour months
R%AovAL oy MR.. suMxRR.
Tho reasons Tor the removal OF Mr.. Sumner from the
craftsmanship OF the Foreign Affairs Committee were
then spoken Of The statement that President Grant
placed the 81. Domingo treaty into Mr.. Summers
hands, related BY Mr. Phillips Mr. Fish character.
izcd rs rdicuously untrue. The President never had
the treaty papers in his possession. They were In
the hands OF tho Secretary Of State. The facts
these:-The President IN conversation with Mr..
Sumner laid before that gentleman the features OF
the treaty. This Information was impaired orally; no
written printed document read to the Senator
Mr.. sumner made no opposition to any oil
its features. Indeed, warmly did he
express his approval OF 1t that q gentle.
men present at the interview, who prior
TO that time had placed himself opposition to the
measure, was made friendly to II solely by the argu.
mcnts used by Mr. sumner. Mr.. Fish said that Mr.
continued favor the treaty che sclec
ton of u commissioner 10 st. Domingo up for
settlement, and when he found that j. H. Ashley, oil
Ohio. not 10 DO the nominee he then all at
lost interest in tho treaty, until finally he placed him.
self in direct opposition TO IT.
CONVERSATION BETWEEN GRANT AND SUMNER.
The conversation between President Grant and Mr..
Sumner took place oward the last OF December 1869,
the first of January following. and IN February.
Nr. Fish said, two Senators, Carl Schurz and Mr..
Stewart, OF Nevada, gentlemen Of opposite political
views, canvassed tho Senate and found tho treaty
could pass that body; that was dead. Mr. Sumner
removed from tho Foreign Affairs Committee at
tho rcassemong OF Congress tho fall but upon the
meeting OF the Congress 1871 he was not roap
pointed HIS term had expired; no was not removed.
m,ttcc at this time, Mr. Fish thinks. He not Mt.
that tmo speaking terms with either tho Pres.
idcnt the Secretary Of State, most unpleasant
state of things to exist between the holder I'm
portant position he filled and the nrst officers Of
tho administration.
Mg. SUMNER
Mr.. Fish, on beng asked whether no had over urged
the English mission upon Mr.. Sumner, said there
lons story connected with shat. which he proceeded
10 tell iollows:-He called upon Nj. Sumner
day In the spring OF 1870 and finding that gentleman
In seeming great distress SAID TO him.
"Mr sumner, you wronging yourself TO lot
things trouble you as you do. Now that the St.
Domingo treaty is dcadthc Senate has oeon canvassed
by OF both sides, and il can't 60 through-why
don't you report IL and have done with ns'
Mr.. sumner replied, with much emotion, "Mr. Fish,
you can't understand my situation. Your family
lationsare all pleasant Why. many and many night
when l 60 10 bed l almost wish that may mover
awake"
Mr.. Fish advised him 10 sock scenes, told him
no getting morbid his troubles aud spoke
OF visit to Europe as temporary rolicf. Mr. Sumner
said he could not 60, he had his book TO nnsh.
Mr.. Fish said that need not Interfere The Duko
OF Argyll and others In England would be glad to
him into thor houses, whore he would have
abundant opportunity for study and writing Mr..
Sumner then advanced the objection that no could
not well afford the expense. Upon this Mr.. Fish says
he ncautiousiy remarked, 'Why not 60 Minister? ?n
This was said on the moment, without previoui
thought and the result OF Mr. Fish's friend
ship Tor and personal interest In Mr. Sumner. The
Secretary for the instant forgot IN his personal SYM
pathy that he was government officer Mr.. Sumner,
he said, frightened up at when this suggestion
was dropped and his eagcrness somewhat alarmed
Mr. Fish, who then that he had said TOO much.
NJ hA IA ttrc In int h,o
friend Motley, upon which Mr. Fish. seeing oppor-
tunty 10 retrsce his steps, told him he might 20 In
his private capacity that tbero would be long
Ci Congress, which would give him ample time to
make visit abroad.
Mr. Fish says this NIL tho "urging' he exer.
ciscd upon Mr. Sumner to tako the MISSION TO st.
James tw4
REASON FOR MorLxY's REMOVAL
Tho reason for Mr. Mo,loy's removal was found In
considerations OF state Hc misfepresentcd the gov
crnmenl on tho Alabama question, especially in tho
two speeches madc by him before his arrival
at his post. Mr. Fish said no always enter
tanned the highest feelings Of friendship and esteem
for Mr. Motley and II painod hun when he forced
TO communicate with Mr.. Moran, Consul at Liver.
pool, instead OF Mr. Motley. Mr. Fish denied the con.
versation between him and Mr. Sumner, wherein tho
latter sad-
'sr you tho tool OF the President for base pur.
poses, and this removal is out OF spite"
Mr. Phillips, no said. quoted this from speech pur.
porting to have been delivered by Mr. Sumner In tho
United States Senate; but that speech was never de-
livcrcd Three times did the opportunity present
itscl when 1t might have boon introduced but upon
neither occasion was Il heard About a hundred
copies OF It were printed for semprvato circulation.
and one gentlemen having copy OF II road It before
an assembly OF twenty nyo or thirty. among whom
was n member Of tho Washington press, and through
him II became known TO tho administration
scHURz's ATTITUDE
Mr. Fish said In speaking OF the attitude OF Carl
schurz:--rnat gentleman was In sympathy with Mr.
Sumner unfrcndy feeling toward late admins
trnion, and no thought examination Of the culogy
pronounced by Mr. Curtis upon Mr.. sumner in this
city would fail to discover any OF the assertions rc
ncctins upon General Grants government found In
the speech OF Mr.. Schurx.