The New York herald. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, 1875-03-06
THE CHURCH DISASTER.
Ex-Chisf Engineer Harry Howard
on Its Causes.
The Firemen Should Have Over
thrown the Wall.
I'D HAVE HURRIED IT DOWN.

TO be ended Tor several days. The testimony given
yesterday would have been as monOtonous as
upon other days had not the well known Harry
Howard, formerly Chief Engineer OF the old volun.
teer FIRE Department, appeared as q witness aud
expert Mr.. Howard gave utterance to some very
unique remarks during his stay IN the witness
seat He wanted three things to be distinctly
understood-hrst, that he did not appear as a wit
ness voluntarily, but because he was sub.
pGnaed by Coroner Eickhof; second, that ne
approved OF the payment OF fremen for their la
Dor, though he believed In the methods OF the VOL
unteer 1remen OF q former time; and, third, that
he assumed nothing, Dut was assured OF the
truth OF everything he SAID. Harry. despite
his iunrmlties OF body, Is still jovial, and
there fingers In his manner and speech some
OF the characteristics OF the old volunteer
freman-sublimated, 1t may be said, and not
ridiculous, as In the typical Nose. HIS answers
TO questions were abrupt and terse. also epigram-
maiic. What he thought and meant he said with
force and with such expressions as caused hearty
laughter. The effect OF SUCH an answer
as "rd have it hurried down." to the
question, ''WOuld you have clipped cd the
upper part OF the wall or would you have thrown
1t DOWN" may not be apparent to the reader. but
1t was such tnat neither tie Jurors nor the Coro
ner could continue questioning until they had
joined in hearty laughter. Harry Towards views
OF the calamity certainly regard number OF per-
sons as collectively responsible Tor 1t. He believes
that the walls OF the Shaw Building were not
thrown down because the insurance people '.were
afraid OF breaking little crocKeryware." and he
considers that the Chief Engineer OF the Fire De-
partment displayed 'careessness aud lamentaDie
ignorance" IN not ordering tile walls OF the SHAW
Building TO be thrown down.
HARRY HOWARD
was the first witness called. lie testified as fol-
Iows:-I i've at NO. ~ Elm street; am an
insnqctOr UuUllC | fireman
twenty years. from lS4J until 1869: was fire
engineer Tor ten years, part OF which time was
an assistant engineer aud three years Chief oil the
Volunteer Fire Depai tment; 1--we near Shaw's
building, and have been Obliged 10 see It's RUNS
examined the burned building and TIE
adjoining houses on CITY Hall place very closely,
am unwilling witness; was amazed that u
weakened bul0lng Jour stories higher than
threat ana menance TO every person VINO entered
Ct church; IL was to me q puzzle on account OF
my memory oinow things used 10 be done w9en
Alfred Carson was Chlel Engineer Oh the old Fire
Department.; Mr.. Carson was brilliant mau, but
o sale, careful and prudent engineer; noticed no
cracks III the walls OF Snaws building al
passed 1t on my way TO business, as dld not
20 near enough to 1t; wall need not be
where 1t Is warped the wais OF the Shaw build
ing should not nave been permitted to stand alter
the H. e; they should have been pushed into the
building upon the nre and q steamer lett to keep
the bricks cool; atterward the runs could have
been cleared away very easily; the front OF the
walls should nave been battered down from the
ROOF OF No. 10 CITY Hail place and from the roo.s
vi the other adjoining buildings; they could have
been thrown down IN THIS way without endanger-
ing the houses surrounding Shaw'S Building; l
even think tie wall could nave been pushed down
without Datrerlng; 1t was the duty Oh The Engineer
to push that west wall down. just as mucn Us 1t
was his duty 70 see that the nre was put out; the
Engineer OF the Fire Department Is supposed to
nave judgment. aud he ough5 TO usefit; ne Is sup
posed To nave judgment. superior 10 mat Of the
RANK and file; the fremcn are not allowed to
throw walls down without orders from the Cnlel
Engineer; from the roof OF the building ON City
Han place the west wall could nave been pushed
into the burning building with safety; think that
q wall which needs Dracing should not be per-
mitted 10 stand; ladders could nave been used in
pushing down the walls from the ROOF or
No. 10 City Hall place there might nave been some
FISK OF the wall ialng outward ana OF Juring my
men il 1t were to AL into the building en- nldSSe
no one would nave been nurt; l never had man
Killed under me.
no one IN the tenement house adjoining the Shaw
Bulllng, would you nave pushed the wal OF the
lat err building down en- htdSSe or would you have
schipped" 1t Oh story by story
Witness-I would have hurried 1t down; think
the person Ia cha, ge OF the IRE IN the SHAW Bud-
Ing was guilty OF gross carelessness, anu was la
mentally ignorant; was In favor OF organizing
tue pi esent Fire Department and / now favor u
paid fire department.
then testified IL am Cnief OF the Fire Department
OF the city vi New YORK; was IN charge at the
fire III the Shaw Building from about twelve min
utes alter the aiarm Was given until twenty min
utes past one O'Clock; leIt Engiue Company No.
and Hook and Ladder Company No. at the fire.
under command OF Chiel Bonner. OF the Second
battalion; tue ice was then under controls during
the fire. and when first arrived at the building,
l considered the west wall dangrrous lmmedl-
aIely gave notice in ST. Andrews cnurch ana n
must not enter them; l did not tnlnE the walis
were gong to fall after the building had been
Sweeny's Hotel: i had taken lines OF hose
through the church to exunguish the fl In the
basement; considered the walls dangerous w
certain degree, but not enough to warrant ne III
sh0ving them dOwn and thereby endangering the
church and the surrounding buildings; iftne north
or rear wall had been tnrown Gown II would nave
careened the west wall over upon the cnurch; |
90 not mink that the west wall could have Oeen
thrown over by orce eXerted rom the rODf OF The
church because 1t would have been dangerous
the cnurcn 1901 Is santlng anu unless the wall
had been braced II would have been exceedingly
dangerous TO have disturbed 1t, as It's low err part
would have been Liable to buckle" outward,
and lal upon the men, as the upper
portion iell into the ruins; alter he lire was
ungulshed | thought tue walls would stand; II
there was any part OF the building that consld-
cred dangerous ana liable To lall would nave
taken into consideration the means OF taking 1t
down; have ueen q IRE man since 1876; the walls
would stand, as part OF the flooring remained;
noticed single crack IN the upper part OF the
east wall over the arcn; noticed the beams IN
the 'front.' OF the building, but no tirnbers IN The
rear part OF the wall winch iell; saw timber
and q beam at the NTH floor; considered 1t was
proper Tor me to leave the WAL to he braced first
and then to be taken down under the direction
OF the Unsaic Department: did not see
the building alter twenty minutes past one +. NJ.
nothing to 40 with the walls after the fire was
exunguisned; IL Is usual to see smoke ooze
through brick wall during a fire; think there
were three windows on each story ABOVE the
church; 10 certain extent the windows weak.
ened the wall; even a recess or chimney Hue
Will weaken u wall on the morning oil the nre the
weather was cod and there was considerable Ice
In the 'front.' OF the budlng, where there was not
lnucn neat; do not recolect mat great amount
OF ice accumulated on the west wall at It's ear
end; DO not know that any water was thrown
ON the outside OF the building; noticed that the
rear part OF the building was Rutted TO the roof
ana noticed u trimmer beam and q ralter winch
had not been burned through on the NTH floor;
DeueVe l worked at laying Orlck Tor twenty
years; the rear part Of the west wall could pOssi
Dly nave been secured from the outside by brac!ng
II up from the rool OF the church. was arald the
walls would Iall, on account OF the intense neat
and the heavy weight vi tIe gooas stored Ia the
building; but when the goods and deoris lc aud
the walls remained standing considered there
was no immediate danger OF their falling; think
IL was about thirty I'VE eet from the top OF the
tenement In the rear OF tue shaw Building TO the
top OF the rear wall Of tie latter building; mink
II would nave been practicable to have ''cnlppedn
OIL the upper dangerous portions OF the west