The New York herald., 1875-08-21
Yesterdays Session OF the
Canal Commission.
EXAMINATION OF Mr.. RICHMOND.
Eyasive Replies as to Furnishing Maps,
Plans and Estimates.
A NON -GOMMITTAL WITNESS.
ALBANY. August 20, 1875.

veyor in the years 1868 1899 1870 and lsl appeared
before the Canal Investigating Commission to-day to be
examined 70 the existence of maps plans, estimates
&c and their being when lettings were made
by the Canal Board Of the work from Port Schuyler TO
the lower Mohawk aqueduct
Mr. Bigelow chairman OF the commission said
ave have been trying, Mr Richmond, in vain, for
three months nd the maps, &c Of fifteen contracts
made III 1869. The State Engineer and division eng-
there none on file in their
Offices Mr. Crocker the Division Engineer, swears
none were made. The exhibits Of the contracts ex-
clude the idea that any survey Of the work was ever
made and with these facts before US reported our
conclusions 10 the Governor Then in the Argus APP
peared card signed by yourself and Mr. Beach assert
ing that our statements unfounded in fact and
untrue We sent for Mr. Beach and he failed TO show
that we were wrong We ask you if you know of
the existence OF these papers If So produce them.
If you not know, state whether you know or believe
that such made"
Mr. RcHMoND-It my firm belief
MIR BIGELow-Please state what you know
Mr. RIcHMoND-I want TO say here It is my firm be
lief that there were such papers Mr.. Beach very
particular in examining them
Mr. BIGELow-No; that is not what we want to
know We have examined Mr Beach
hr RIcHMosD-Ihe square fact is that you claim it
not map is t2
MI BIGMOW-Yes.
Mr. RIcHAoSD-There is file in the Auditors
Office, amap of the entire Erie Canal adopted bv the
Legislature and by the Canal Board That map is all
that necessary and that has always been the case
The law Of 1862 prohibited the Canal Board from chang
ing the plans of the canals thus adopted Now
perfect maps Of the entire canal record In the
Canal Department and 20 make adopt others would
be simply to adopt what already in existence
Mr.. BIGELow-Dd the map you alude to show the
amount Of work, &c, in this caseg
Mr. RoHaoND-I don't know the terms Of the con-
tract
Mr. BIGELow-How could you ascertain the quantities
of work to be done without a survey?
Mr.. RcMoND-So far as Strengthening the line was
concerned an instrumental survey would be made
Mr.. kAGoSE-That is not Could YOU give
The quantities needed without actual measurements
MI kicHhoSD-No know nothing of any map
being exhibited TO the Canal Board before the letting
Mr. ORE-was there any map such contemplated
by statute?
Mr.. RIcHxorD-Yes sir I regard that map in the
Auditors office such map.
Mr.. hAGoSE-Does not the resolution adopted CON
template a change in the line Of the canal7
Mr.. RIcHAoND-No sir.
Mr.. MAGoNE-Is not the Strengthening OF line
changing it?
Mr.. RicHMoNp-No sir
Mr. MAeoSE-Did you not vote for this resolution
stating there were maps &c, presented?
Mr RIcHMoSD-Yes sir.
Mr. MAGoSE--Then, did not the Law provide for re-
guring maps &c, to be exhibited?
Mr. HcHsoND-Yes, sir
Mr. MAGoSE-Did you believe you had the right to
firngben the canal without giving map plan Of Tie
sarse
Mr. RIcnnosp--The Canal Board had no right to
make a change
MI MAGoSE-But they did
MI. RcRMoSD-No, sir
Mr.. MAGoNE-Did you not know there was a change?
Mr KcnnoSD-No, sir could not know It,
a
Office
MIR RIcnMoxp-Yes
Mr. MAGoNE-Were there any proGles9
MI h'HsoHD-l cannot say. II was not possible for
me to know Of al these things
Mr. MAGoNE-Dd You not understand that the En-
rnccrs shall report the Engineer all work and
b. shall he the same in his Officer
Mr. RIcHMOND-Iu all work that was done
MI MAGoNE-Nas there any plan on Lie OF the work
IL question
Mr. RicHMoyD-No. sir
Nj NAGoNE-Nas there ANYTHING done besides pre-
sentng these abstractsy
WirNEss-l do not know If there was anything more
Sr M4CoNE-Ncre there any maps, &cy
'-rr n,ENovD-I can't say; see there are none now
] don Ia96 aG 7 erer saw any.
Mr. MAGoSE- Do you Iss.cn .ay there was maIe
M RicnN9NB-I can't say anything about IT,
Mr. MAGoNE--Then Hhy 90 you say over your sigma.
irc ~ yolr letter ia the Arg@ that there map,
Mr RcHMoSD-l maintain that there was a maI'-tbe
map have referred 20 as q general map
M ORR-Do you thnA that map would show the
amount on excavation, &c called lQE under the appro
pfiaiionsy
Mr. lI,sMoyD--i think 1t was al that was necessary
~ SlAGoNE read from ne regulations adopted by Mr.
Richmond state Engineer, which we're very specific
as 10 surveys measuiements maps, &c, and asked -
Were these regulations not adopted by you I've years
'Lo Legislature declared the canals finished
Nj kUliSoND-Ycsj they were regulations coprd
from Engineers ResBlt Lions
Mr. M4GoNE-Were they not necessary
Mr. kCBNoND-Ies. in all new work.
Mr. HAGosE-Were not all these things necessary TO
BE- doneY
MI RIcnMoSp-Ycs. where actual measurements we're
Mr. MteoNK-wcre there any surveys or measure
ments OF excavations made IN this case,
Mr. kiCHMoND-i cannot saw
Mr. MAGoNE--Any Of ernbankments?
Mr. RIcBNOND-NO sir.
Mr. MAGoNg-Was 10 possible for engineer. not
excepting Mr. Richmond, 70 tell bow much without
survey
wITNEss-No
MIR MAGoNE-Was any survey made2
WITNESS DO not know.
Mr MAGoNE-why did you say there was in your
wirNRss-I do not know that | said So
Mr. MAGoSE-rhis is what you said:-You denied the
statement OF the Commissioners 10 the effect that
survey made.
Mr. oEE--we want to know whether you intended to
CIscrcdt the Cornmissiony
wIrNEss-I knew nothing Of your testimony at that
time
Mr. BiGELow-You supposed We knew less than we
wlrvFss- supposed thai the contract was let accord
ing to law and there was tat in the report which hurt
ny feelings.
Witness then asked detail questions as to the
work done under the contract and said he knew nothing
about t. He said that f his had been called
% he would have looked at the details.
Mr. MAGoyE-Your attention was called to It, and
then point 10 a law OF 1874 IusLfying ia law
passed three years aiterward.
Mr. RICHMOND supposed that law had reference 10
work then course OF progress
NJ MAGoNE-Now want TO know wheiher You did
not understand that necessary TO have plans sub
nittcd with every canal ettingy
hr HcHsoND-l want II understood that the map on
fe AL That necessary 70 take out wall benches
and such work.
Mr. BIGEIow-Answer the question please
Mr. RCHMoSD--rhe law requires maps and plans
Mr. oRE--Haye you reason to believe such we're sub
mitted2
Mr. RIcmoND-If Mr. Crockor tes6es there were
none then have reason TO say there we're. But
thought there we're at the time.
Mr. hAGoNB-DOn't the quantities for seven miles
show you on their face hat they could have been
based upon actual survey measurement as shown
20 you here IN the oriRnaY
Mr.. hcHSovD-l admit that was mised by the reso-
luton supposed we were voting for letting certain
amutnt o Work between Port Schuyler and the Lower
Mohawk Aqueduct ! thought il was between instead
Of from. The Canal Board did not intend to lot the
work IN that way The understanding was 10 let the
work only between The points stated The difference is
produced by using the word between" instead Ol
''from, and did not know this TIL now-since re-
ceived your subpoena
Mr. MAGoNE-Do these estimates give any idea OF
such piece Of work-of so much work. "
Mr. RIcHMOND-No.
Mr. MAGosE-Do you wish to have it understood that
you were dcccved2
Mr. HCuMOSD--I wish 20 have Ii understood that
MAJ v tn