New-York tribune., 1873-04-12
TESTIMONY OF JAY GOULD.

TESTIMONY OF JAY GOULD
Mr.. Gould testified: was first elected Pres
of Eric Railway in 1865 in 1853 was some
times accustomed to direct payments to be made by the
Treasurer cannot tell whether when approved vouch-
they always contained correct statement OF what
the money paid for that belonged TO the Control
ler's department.; might approve them without even
looking at them profess 10 go into detai Sc
leet the best get and hold them responsible;
have recollection of special instances in which sp
proved vouchers for legal services; don't remember
that I ever approved directed the payment Of any
SUMS Of money TO Wm NJ Tweed for legal services do
not know that approved or directed any sums
Of money him while he Senator; you have the
they will speak for themselves; do not know
that he appeared attorney for the Erie Rail-
way know that he is lawyer; he ought to be well ac
QuaiDted with law anyhow; think would pass as q
pretty fair lawyer; there was regular legal depart
ment in the Company and everything of that kind went
through that mill had large number Of lawyers
some In NewYork, some in Eew-Jersey, and some IN
Pennsylvania; the regular lawyers appointed by
the Board OF Directors; do not know that Mr..
Tweed appointed; do not know that there was
kept Of proceedings OF the legal department.
have made IL rule 60 into Details Mr. Tweed
frequently consulted, but do not know on what oc
casons have papers in my possession, and have no
Of ascer:aining; presume may have consulted
him legislative matters which might affect the inter-
of the Erie Railway but have special recollec
ton Of any specific thing; consulted him, II at ALL
simply a codirector; cannot say he ever received
any pay director; that out OF my department;
do not know whether the books would show whether
he received any money; do not know how
such matters we're entered-vbether in gross or
detail have books or papers which show
payments TO Mr.. Tweed; If / ever had such
books papers handed them to the contractors
department; employed A. D. Barber on behalf OF the
Erie Company sort Of general agent TO carry out
any directions might give him. and to see that no hos
tile legislation passed that would injure the Erie
Company he did this by his large acquaintance with
members Of the Legislature and his general knowledge
Of railroad law; no probably knew members Of the
Legislature than any other in the State; believed
him trusty and faithful in any interests he was engaged
10 protects; employed him to use his influence with
lesislators and to assist in defeating candidates
friendly interests; saw him in Albany very sell
DOM there oftener during the sessions Of the
Legislature than at other times do not know that my
paym him made oftener during the sessions
that at other times the vouchers would speak for them
selves; do not know whether he was usually engaged
in lobbying; do know exactly what lobbying is;
think the Legislature ought to define what that word Isl
presume he tried influence legislation by his per-
sonal attendance the Legislature; have doubt
of 1t.
This may have been one why employed him.
would not like to speak positively that polnt en-
poyed him because he ready to night day for
Il
engine but If had done think he would have tried
do not remember whether paid money to Barber
except for purpose of influencing legiSatOn know
that We had large transactions with Mr.. Tweed; re-
lember hearing Mr.. Fisk say that he WAS borrowing
money of him. but do not know in what amounts or 10
what extent any moneys borrowed ought TO appear
the books; do MT know whether they appeared as
legal services or what shape they put would
not have had them put legal services my attention
had been called TO the matter do not know OF any
loans other business transactions with Mr.. Barber
there may have been some real estate matters have
some faint recollection OF something of sort # there
we're such transactions they ought TO appear the
books; know Mr.. Van Veehten well, and have
ployed him for legal services; think that he and Mr.
Barber are generally in Albany during the session Of the
Legislature; I do MT know positively, as l am
very seldom there myself; OF his services
as legal expert in the examination OF bills TO see that
nothing was shipping through which would iniure US;
frequently consulted him Ia the preparation Of bills;
Van Vechten not employed TO influence
legislation by personal attendance at the Legislature;
least never considered that part Of his business;
coupled with his knowledge OF law, he has fund OF good
common sense which is useful in various ways. Imay
have hired him oppose advocate legislation but do
not remember he would not have required any specific
directions Voucher for s5O approved April IS, 1871
shown witness.l 1t looks ike my handwriting and 1
sup ppose wrote it; do not know whether the ~. G."
means myself or not; it would be very natural
way for TO express IL, II IL did; 1 have
no recoectons the subject, but have doubt about
it the initials might apply TO one whose first name
begins with -" and his last name with "G"; know
several such persons; have partner whose name
John George Ooks at the voucher sgainl; consders
ton not that the voucher Is written or any
name signed by had clerk by the name of Nolan
who signed my name exactly like myself that could
not tell 1t from my he signed my name on all the
stock certietes he not in the habit OF signing my
of 10
though might in my absence at the request Of the
Controller knew Of Nolsns approving vouchers
In my name without my direction; nothing OF the
kind ever come up before do not know in whose hand
writing MI Tweeds signature is; would that
il was written by Mr. Van Vechten; do not remember
any legal disbursements made for the Company by
Tweed; never asked him whether he had made such
disburse mens they belonged 10 different department,
and had nothing to do with them; don't remember
that ever employed Vim. NJ Tweed. Jr do not reInen-
Der that paid $4,000 for legal expenses and dis
bursements on November 49, 1859. Voucher for that
amount sbown wtness.l The signature was written by
Mr.. Fisk; 1 do not know what the payment vas for.
NOTE TO
Tho witness was shown the following note written on
telegraph paper, but in his own handwriting;
MONDAY EVENING
To JF, jr Erie Octce Deposit to-day twelve thou
sand ia broadway Bank 20 the credit OF Wn W. Tweed
Deposit early aud when done telegraph "g yes so,,n
The voucher dated April T. 1870 reads that $4,000 Tor
legal expenses. per memorandum attached
The witness said: tell whether the signature
10 the voucher IN my Handwriting looks ike mine;
I do not remember what those legal expenses were;
have no recollection that the deposit for anything
other than legal expenses don't remember anything
about there IL nothing 10 bring IL up DO not renien'
Der what pendiug In the legislature that
interested the Company; think there none; all
those matters passed out OF my recollection;
Is7If 4 ices