, 1872-12-13
How The Claims Of the policy.Holders
We're Bought Up by Them for
The Trust Company.
l5r. Perkins Interviews with Charles
Smith Concerning the Funds in
Geo. G. Smiths Bank.

'Bross sold his claims for $500; was under the
impression that he bought the claim OF ". n.
kinba1l; Chauncey Bowen bought Keith Bros.';
did not buy Boardman's claim; the claims had
been adjusted; the claims were for losses in the
fire Of Oct. Q; didpot recollect Of any case Of
loss outside Of the big fire did not purchaseany
claim for J. B. Smith about which there was any
doubt; was not IN official OF Etockholder
In the National Loan and Trust Company; did
not Enow of any arrangement between Smith
and the Trust Company made in advance; his
business with Smith was net arranged yet.
Cross-e1an1i"cd: Purchased claims for him
self in January and after; made no REPRESENTS
tions to Governor Bross as to the condition Of
the Insurance Company at the time he pur-
chased his claim SAN no statement Of the REIN
surance IN the Teutonia until April; made
mental estimate that the amount OF the insur-
nnce in the Teutonia amounted to about MILL
ion and half Ill tho books containing tho re-
insured policies we're turned over to the Teuto-
'nia: there were some twenty-six books; he paid
for the policies purchased, and Was reimbursed
byJ. 3. Smith for all the money paid out.
Redirect: Dealt with brokers and with the
owners Of the policies in purchasing them.
Cross-e1dminaii0n resumed: Tho actual
amount 1einsured in the Teutonia was about
e261 900.
By the Register: Generally took the policies;
most Ct them we're adjusted before he bought
them; surrendered the policies and proofs to
the Company, and got due bills for thom; could
not cay that all the due bills we're dated truth
fully; never remembered noticing that the due
bills we're not dated the day they came into his
possession; they might have been ante-dated; !;
thought all the due bills we're passed over to
Smith before Nor. IS, 1871; thought the due
bills we're truthfu1ly dated; thought there
Of the dates; did not know the exact
dates; was not positive about the dates; al
he knew Was that the transactions took place in
October or the beginning OF November, 1871
never purchased any due bills after January
went away between the 1st and 10th Of Decem-
ber; stopped purchasing about three weeks
Rfter the fire.
JAMES VAN SwAaEy
said he WAS Secretary OF the State Insurance
Company at the time Of the great fire; continued
to be Secretary up to the time it was put into
bankruptcy knew that certificates of indebted
ness we're issued to J. B. Smith; knew that
Smith afterwards transferred his claims to the
Trust Company; purchased claims for Smith
amounting in the aggregate to $100, 900; was au-
thorized to buy them by G. u. Smith and perhaps
BY Mcalullin; gave his individual checks in pay
ment; supposed Smith paid the money; never
. knew Of any of Smiths claims being paid by the
Insurance Company; had no personal knowl-
edge of Smiths turning over the claims to the
Trust Company; did not know what he got for
them; paid 10 cents On the dollar for the claims
purchased; dealt with the owners Of claims;
never held out to owners that he was purchasing
for the Insurance Company; gave q check to +:
n ao9d4s ho51 who P5s bis claim did not
French's, Alfred S. T11dys, spaulding g. La
clsins; thought ho bought y: v. Kimba1l's
claim; told kimbau that the eafe could not be
opened for week after the fire, and that affairs
were in too mixed state for him
to give pro1imate idea OF the condition Of tue
company; told everybody the same; mover told
anybody they we're su1rendering to the company !;
&o11 1ron nfiru RI Re11 TINT ha
lied by Smith to pay 10 per cent; never had any
connection with the Loan d Trust Company at
any time there was no doubt at the time the
cleimR wen bought that the State Insurance 2
Company >as ilso1yent; it met the fate Of n1l
the Chicago companies; did not know of any un-
.derstandingbetween Smith and the Trust Com
pany that htshould buy claims and turn them
over to the 6mpany; did not know Of any un-
deretanding hat the Trust Company should set
the claims Cfgalnst deposits in the bank didnot
know that wa to be done, OF when it was done !;
never assente to that charging up; did not re-
member whenthe Trust Company charged the
claims up; relaincd with the Company until
May: handled lone OF the assestB; helped to
settle up the Affairs OF the Company; never
knew Of any OF &c money Of the State Insurance
Company GolnGo purchase the claims from the
original oWnerer anybody else.
Cross -Erami,d: Began to be Secretary in
March, lS71 tit was after the change from
the co-oper2h7 to the stock plan; had charge
OF the business anerally, but not Of the funds
10bAa(CtC4}
1uster, Henry Nnarih policy clerk, and Mr
Goodrich survey Of risks; the amount OF risks
outstanding on . books amounted to some mill
ions OF dollars, elusive of the risks reinslrcl
In the Teutonla @he loss on their own business
was 5000, 900 OF 10000; the amount reinsure6
was over four milons while he was in the
Office there was nrecord kept Of the amount re-
insured in the 11tonia supposed after tut
fire that the lossepn the policies reinsured by
the Teu:onin was rom ono and half to twt
millions, but lear1d afterwards that it WAS onl,
10000; did not now till after tie fire that tlt
Teutonia had retirl the State Insurance policies
and Issued its oWunstead did not think afte
the fire the Compay would bo able to pay more
than 10 or Is per cat Z; the assets of the Com
panE after the fire ere about Si00, 1000; did no
believe the entiro mount could bo realized
purchased one sing claim for himself though
be bought !: from Il. Sralding; it WIS during
Tue winter; bougt no other claims, ezcep
those for J.. B. Smit.
By the hcgister: Signed the certificates a.
Secretary signed tenn all the policies pur
chased for Smith he,ut in tho safe Of the Com
Eany; Smith d1rectf or indirectly presented til
polc.es for cancella;on. and got due bills in
eead all the due bis, rs far as he knew, e1
c9ot . very fow whlc. were ante-dAted after thu
2dcf November, wen truthfully dated; had nc
doubt that Smth'e due-bills were correctl,
oa9d; they we're substantially dated whe1
is5,ed. except, penaps, from three to five
thee he was requeIted to date the I'd of No
Fenoer that being 'he day the Receiver wa
appointed was celtai1 none Of them wer
aatu IN Deccmbe:; none OF them wer
ent+dated more thar six days +; took an assign
men when the polici=s were purchased; !; date
the sslgnments truthfully.
NORMAN c. PERKINS
recolacted having bean appointed Assignee i,
that ase; had some recollection Of it; tile ques
ton set-ofs in bankrupt cases was pendin
In theUnited States Courts shortly after he va
Rppoited the decision WAS published in tn
papertin June, about two months after his ar
polntrent; Ind an Interview before tho decisio
K29 Indc with George G. Smith, president n
the Tret Company, about getting the money O
deposit in the bank; Smith said tho ban
had, b the advice Of counsel, purchase
claims and intended setting them O
against the deposits; called afte
the decision WAS rendered, and eaw Charlie
Smith, 1presenting George c. Smith, who ha
gone to europe for his health told him Judg
Drummo1ds decision was against eet-offs, m
L they dl not pay over the money he wou1
have to 10 to law to recover it; the money wa
not paid 'ver at that time; they did not refua
aatly to cay the money over; they expresse
their willingness to waive their set-off claims
they coull 70 in With the other creditors and gs