The New York herald., 1870-05-07
ROME AND JERUSALEM.
Herald Special Correspondent and French
Legitimist in the Holy City Conversation
on Public Affairs-Napoleon Policy
IN Rome-Infallibility and the
Church-American Interest
a City for HIS Holiness
To Jerusalem.
RoME, April 20, 1870.

30 on account OF its agitation in connection with I
the present Council and the politics Of Italy, is |
the imperial occupation Of Rome and the upholdng
OF the temporal power Of Plus TX. by means OF |
French troops. For the Italian kingdom 1t is the |
political question Of paramount importance. At the
present moment therefore, when the subject Is at
tracing unusual attention in the European press, |
1t VIII not be out OF place 10 ransnt the r6Suae Of
conversation which have Just had with an emi |
nent French parsonage now on visit here, who Is |
an almrer OF the fontin q sincere though hbera |
minded Catholic, and member of the legitimist
party in France. was anxious TO get the views OF
this parsonage as presenting the main points of re-
lance on the Catholic side OF the affair. since the
views of the modern world on the opposite side have
been given over and 1t Is curious not to say
more. to hear what Of people enclosing them
selves within Chinese wall and proppng the whole
down as dyke against modern progress have to say
for themselves. g F
Tne gentleman alluded 10 exhibited no hesitation
in speaking out freely ana intimately Oh the topics
broached. In answer to my demand he replied SUBJ
stantially as ollowst Is the sincere desire Of the
French nation to keep the troops here IN order TO
uphold the Pope. All Of us desire this except
small minority opposed TO all religion whatever.
This minority is small but 1t counts some very able,
persevering inriyuers the pea ants indirer mt
and are under the influence OF the clergy; but the
enlightened portion OF the nation OF all parties Is
sincerely attached TO the Catholic fath. We have
many parties the leginlss, the Or eanists the re-
pubcans, The liberals the utras Tor anarchiss) and
the NapOleonists. The latter is stronger than any
single one OF them all and, ncrefore. enjoys the
upper hand, but II is by no means the genuine rep
rescntltve Of the country can II be SAID 10 be
supported by public opinion, not even now under
Monsieur olivier 1t rules simply because the other
parties do not or cannot combine Yet all these,
with tha nf tho ult.a
although there are some very good Catholics among
the latter go in for the continued occupation OF Rome
by our troops. We deem 1t absolutely necessary for
| the independence Of the head OF our Church. Your
objection that in SO judging we overlook the interests
OF Italy Is strong, confess you say moreover, that
we French should not set ourselves up as judges Of
what Is should be the real interests of the Italians
opposed to their well known and reiterated recam-
| atons made in order TO get possession OF Rome
the capital OF their Kingdom confess also that that
objection great deal OF IOrce believe in Justice
| for all. Yet hold that the Pope should be ndepen-
| dent, and has perfect riglH to Rome He Is here
by long possessiOn all his predecessors constituting
as it sovereign family, have IN the enjoy
ment of the place from the time popes were instituted
cOnsecrated by usage, tradition and treaty. and do
not what right the Italians any other people
have to Oust him. The United States would have as
good & right TO- to 90 SO SO as ai, any other nation But
involved IN the matter at all, while the
| interess OF Italy are, to a serious extent,
seeing that the Pope and Rome are placed In the
very heart Of the peninsula. Wen, now, what do
you call Italy. and who are the Italiaasf Do the
| Piedmontese consider themselves Italians, and
| should tAey be 80 cOnsideredp Are not the Neapot-
tans, like an axe shaking IN its helye, trying to
| break away from their present rulersS'
To this amateur aud purely imaginative vision he
| writer was compelled to demur, as being the strict
history, according to his own recent personal knOw
| edge and Investigations.
n beieve., continued the legitmist gentleman
that Austria had no right In Italy, and hence Victor
Emanuel was justified IN securing Lombardy and
never have had % those provinces and Itas newer
wou have been one Kingdom. This would seem 10
give Us soms rghs % TO NIX * m ourselves up n aaa a
waive that right as eng Claim upon the gratitude
OF me Italian [a peope ant hes M US & examine the
and what the interests and necessities OF the Church
require. There would be equal justice in deprivIng
Victor Emanuel OF his crown and throne as In de-
prlvlng Plus TX. OF his sovereignty here The Pope
Is not SO burdensome and HISTORY shows that has
Pope ana the Church has hitherto consisted IN the
fact tnat they have never made any concessions
past; 10 do SO would he ruin and to overturn all the
past IL may be said one day, although do not
Catholics started out from Inc beginning ON false
principles; but will be said that we
were Illogical In our course after we got under way.
The deductions and consequences from our princi-
Piles have been always strictly logical, and this. it
must be admitted, has been an immense fOrce--an
overpOwering influence OF our Church. All Catholics
are bound to beeve whatsoever doctrines the
Ghurch teaches aud to submit TO them. Thus from
Catholic standpoint and by means OF fath the dogma
OF the Immaculate Conception, declared In 1854 by the
Holy Father In conjunction with the representatives
OF the Church, was accepted aud believed by the
faithful. But In my own Individual opinion il has
been extremely tmpolitic to endeavor to establish
the dogma OF the Pope's infallinlty or course It
called and Plus TX. should have t. flee to the Cata-
combs for refuge and OF course all the faithful win
have TO accept lC. Even DupailOup, who has been
the only marking man In the Councii, who Is the
tue representative Of the present sentiments OF
French Catholics because he has been CONSCIENTIOUS
II his opinions and opposition, he having been for
years previous the ardent defender OF Rome against
all comersevea ne, have no doubt, Will bow to the
decision Of the majority Ia the Council. But then
really DO not see the necessity or policy Of bringing
tated juncture. has been the work VI the Jesnits
aud really 1t has been little strong (rOp JOrU for
them tnus to break our noses with the incensoir
the dogma OF the Immaculate Conception proclaimed
as it was by the Pope and the Church; II has dogma
was rightly established in that manner. then the
dogma that the Pope declare by himself any doc
trlne for the lathu-Ior Instance, that Dupanloup
should be considered herenc-nust be ladica "
wrong. Ii the Pope inallible without the Church.
then the immaculate Conception was defined aud
| When consult my mind and conscience, Ihs diem.
ma upsets me and am thrown back into q state of
ward tae dogma OF inla bility; the Church was get
ting along very we'll and Tor my part am opposed
10 tits apple OF discord that has been thrown
midst No one can deny tile TRANSFORMATION thugs
are undergoing nowadays; there Is irrtsst bic
current At the present time. 1 am not in avor OF
/ be
rather 60 with IL II we can. In regard 10 the occu-
patton OF Rome by our troops, IN conclusion know
| the Italians proclaim that the Pope woui be better
| Oh without his temporal sway.
But the Catholics, he continued, all over the world
England ut the time OF Henry VII, could lie have
| uttered any protest against Henry's regiona He
would have been seized among the first. In France
or Italy, under another sovereign, he would have
submit TO the civil rule, and go along with it In all
| Us influences aud bias How would the other Catho.
| lie nations like thsS He must be sovereign TO be
irec, as head OF our religion. Give him cary 70 him.
Sell, the souvenirs OF Rome would accompany him
thither; let him have the sovereignty IL guaran-
ieed by all civilized nations OF the world by the
United States and by all the Powers OF Europe. If
you give him Bordeaux, let him nave Bordeaux his
own, and let IL belong 10 France longer But
mere is the difficulty. Where will YOU 6lid tie city
and the citizens willing 10 give themselves 70
A. ali n.t,.r