The New York herald., 1869-04-05
ENGLAND.


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Conclusion OF tho Debate ON tho Second
Reading OF the Irish Church BilI-Cl0sins
Remarks OF Mr.. Gladstone.
The concluding debate ON the second reading of
the Irish Church bill was resumed IN the British Par
lament on the evening OF March % ana at an early
hour next morning iG was concluded, when dlvi-
sion OF the House was taken, resulting by vote of
36s in favor OF the bill being read O second time
against an adverse vote Of ESQ., The following is o
brief resume Of the proceedings:-
Mr.. wALroLE opened the adjourned debate, taking
Tor his text Mr. BriGht's quotation from Wycliffe
that when endowments are perverted princes may
take them away and his aphOrism founded on it.
may suppress them. But without these two con-
diti0ns such measure as this, he maintained, was
nothing less than Legislative revolution. Hitherto
our revolutions had been reformations or
restoration, but this was simply destruction vio
alton OF fun damenta laws and al abolition OF insti-
OF the community. This revolution he divided into
two parts-entire dsestablishment and universal
dlsendowment ti mt Finally, he summed up his objec-
history, destroy the securities hitherto taken by
the State for the extension OF the ordinances OF
ligion to all parts Of the country and divert the
never were intended. 1t would be the first step
towards ecclesiastical communism and would un-
settle the laws or ecclesiastical property In England
and Scotland perhaps Of all other kinds OF property
and certainly OF corporation property 1t overthrow
o ooiSiuu COlupdCt DttWtcu TWO independent LtRlS-
latures; it would impede religious progress and
would stir up endless disc0rd in Ireland,
SIR II. BULwER dlsclaimed all claim to argue the
question as lawyer or theologan. for 1t was solely
statesman's queshon-''how are we to govern
lrelandf" The resistance offered to the bill he held
to be an anachrOnism, for when we had granted
political equality in 1929 religious equality had be-
come certainty and Lord Liverpool had re-
marked that there were only two alternatives for
Ireland. that the Roman Catholics should all be
converted or tnat the Protestant Establishment
should be abolished.
NJ Ar .
FIRST time IT proposed to subvert what had always
been constitutional prncIpa--the recognition Of re-
igion by the State-and substitute for 1t voluntary
Ism, wh!ch ne showed, by review OF our colonial
experience OF 1t, would be failure and would pro-
duce deplorable results.
Mr.. AGAR ELLIS and Mr.. DALRYMPLE spoke
strongly In favor Of the bill and were followed by
Mr.. MILLER, who took side with the opposition. Mr.
w. WERNER treated the question as q struggle be-
tween Professionalism and POpery.
The O'DoNOGHUE, after pointing out that the argu-
ments OF the other side in favor OF establishment
like religious unanimity prevailed. decaimed at
some length in favor OF the bill, principally because
1t would establish religious equality.
Lord GEORGE HAMILTON made q spirited attack on
the Dill, which he characterized as specious excuse
for large part Of ,hn the Es Snurch
Church.
Mr.. G. H. MOORE, while supporting the principle
of the bill, criticised the details, and doubted
whether so much ''greasing and lubricaton,n so
much jopbery and waste was necessary to pass it,
Mr. HARDY rose 10 wind up the debate on the
the right OF the conservatives to oppose this bill to
the end Notwithstanding the verdict OF the country
(Which was provoked by a remark OF The O'Don-
ogiue), he went on to examlne the bill. giving Mr.
Gladstone full credit for having redeemed his
pledges to sweep away oil that he once deemed pre-:
man Catholics, both of priesthood and laty,
and their practical equality, he could dis
cover no reason for this attack On the
lyish Church but jealousy, such as animated uaman.
He denied that the Church was badge OF conquest;
"a N ph "a. "A 70
cognition by the Executive OF the Almighty supern-
tendence-a token OF the Professionalism OF the
sovereign. What had the Church done to deserve
destructonS For the penal laws she was not an-
swera0le, and without defending them, Mr.. Hardy
pointed out by quotation from Lord RUSSELL that
LIBERAL statesmen had seen some justification. lie
objected TO the extent OF the Church's work
being judged by the census for her minisrations OF
charity were not confined 10 her own denomina-
ton, and he MISUNDERSTANDING himself by
numerous quotatlons-that she had practically made
many converts, and, to use his own words OF last
year. had kept alight in the dark places OF Ireland
the lamp Of the Reformation Finally, he drew q
picture OF the condition OF Ireland in which he paint
ed the Institutions OF the country satisfactory:
freedom as complete, law as Justly administered as
In England, but the people discontened without
cause sympathlzing with crime, aud Influenced not
for good by the priesthood. The moral he drew was
that an interval Of peace and industry-nOt o de-
structive measure, which, amid loud cheers from
the opposition, he denounced as wrong in the
sight OF God and opposed to the interests Of the
empire-was the real panacea for Ireland.
hr. GLADSTONE rose Just before one O'Clock, loudly
cheered by hls supporters and first he remarked OF
the latter portion OF Mr.. Hardy's speech that 1t
showed his fitness for the task which Burke dis
claimed, 't0 draw an indictment against whole
nation." Yet, even In picture OF the Irish people
so unjust as TO amount to libel, serious evils were
admitted for which Mr.. Hardy had no remedy.
But the government recognizing the existence OF
an Irish question: the result OF years OF previous
misgovernment had a remedy which they proposed
or necessity plecemeal. Assuming that the issue OF
tonight would not depend the details OF the bill
Mr.. Gladstone passed over most OF the comments
them, though he intimated that the payment
or the hayuOOtn grant and the ReliUln UOl1u7n
out OF the Church property was an open question,
which was not absolutely Insisted on and before
discussing the plan OF the government he
through the four nights debate to discover what
rival plan had been proposed in Its pace. The pro-
posals OF the COMMISSION had been entirely thrown
aside, and the opposition had either no plan at all or
else II was the oi1 plan OF leyelng Sir Roundel
length, and he differed altogether from the Ideas OF
Church property on which II was founded. When
property had been given for purposes which were
not attained, aud could not be attained IL was the
duty OF the Legislature to see that 1t was not
wasted, and, when II became mischievous, to
take 1t over. But he took much larger view
OF the Church trusts holding that this property had
been given for the general benefit OF the nation. In
giving up establishment however Sir Koundell
Palmer had abandoned the worthier part OF the whole
argument, and here Mr.. Gladstone incidentally re-
marked that the bill would In no way toucn the
royal supremacy. The most serious objection he
urged Was that Sir Roulde Palmer would sacrifice
the small parishes, where endowmeEts were needed,
for the benefit OF the large aud weather. parishes,
and thus, instead OF c0nclllafing, would rrltate
public feeling. OF the scheme for disposing
OF the surplus he claimed that It was the
most perfect which could be devised Tor
spreading the benefits OF these funds into every
part OF the country, and he showed that there
was no danger OF the funds failing into the hands OF
the Inonastic inst.tutiOna had been predicted.
The hard words, robbery "sacrilcgc" "Dribery,u
dc., he accepted as proofs that the government had
carried out their pledges completely, but without
harshness, and he concluded speech OF little over
an nOur and quarter 10y repeating once more his
confident anticipation that the settlement Of this
controversy Is close at hand.