The Portland daily press. [volume] (Portland, Me.) 1862-1921, 1868-04-03
FOURTH DAY.

WASHINGTON, April 2.--After the organi
cation of the court the journal was read
Mr.. Drake said Mr.. President, send II
the chair and ask the adoption of an amend
ment to Rule Z.
The Secretary read the amendment as fol
lows: amend Rule7 by adding as follows
upon all such questions the votes shall be with.
out decision unless the yeas and nays be de.
mandcd by one fifth of the members as required
by the presiding officer when the same shall
be taken ~
At the suggestion of Mr.. Drake, Rule was
read as proposed to be amended.
1t provides that the Chief Justice shall rule
upon all questions of evidence and incidental
questions, &c in the first instance. ii
Mr.. Hendricks suppose by the rules 1t
stands over for one day.
The Chief Justice--If any Senator Object
Mr.. Conkling-Under what rules
A brief coloquy occurred between Messrs
Hendricks and Conkling, inaudible in the re-
porters' gallery. ..- ...
Mr.. Stanbery of the counsel then rose and
said Mr.. Chief Justice, before the managers
proceed with another witness we wish to recall
for moment Mr.. Karsner.
Mr.. Butler of the managers-I submit that
if Mr.. Karsner is to be recalled the examin-
alton and cross examination having been finish
ed on both Sides he must be re- called as a wit
ness of the respondent, and the proper time to
call him will be when they begin their case.
Mr.. Stanbery--We will call him but for a
moment. so
The Chief Justice to Mr.. Butler-Have you
any objection to his being calleda 5t#
Mr.. Butler-No sir. u
Mr.. Karsner then took the stand again.
Questions by Mr.. Stanbery-Where did you
stay that night on the 9th of March when you
had had this conversation with Gen. Thomas ;
Ans.-I stayed at the house of Mr.. Tanner
The night of the 9th March was at the house
of Mr.. Tanner, who was employed in the War
Department; don't recollect that next morn
ing went with Tanner to the War Depart
ment to see Mr.. Stanton in regard to my testi-
mony; saw Mr.. Stanton iii regard to moth
ing in particular; was introduced by Tanner,
and reference was made in conversation to
Gen. Thomas; received no memorandum from
Mr.. Stanton; received no instructions. but
something was said regarding my testimony.
Thomas w. Ferry, member of Congress from
Michigan, called and testified.-On the morn
ing Of the 22d of February, when Gen. Thorn
as came to the War Office, was present; paid
attention to what occurred and made memo
randum; have that memorandum now. Wit
ness here read from his memorandum an ac-
count of what he had heard in the interview
referred to, which was pretty much the same
as testified to already by other witnesses. Mr.
Stanton asked Gen. Thomas if he intended to
use force, and was replied to by Gen. Thomas
to the effect that he (Thomas) did not care TO
use force, but had made up his mind as to
what he should do.
Witness was briefly cross examined by Mr..
Stanbery and dismissed.
Gen. Emory, commander of the post of
Washington, testfed-Had a conversation
with the President in regard to the movement
of troops in the department of Washington:
the conversation occurred long ago; can
only give the substance of it; told him the
strength of each fort; there was some CONVEX
sation as to whether more troops should be
brought here, and made some recommends
tons accordingly; something was said about
an organization of military force in Mary
land: said did not see the object of it; I
was sent for by the President then and again
about the 22d OF February; received a note
from Col. Moore; this note / read before the
Reconstruction Committee l called on the
President about midday and found him alone;
can't undertake to state the conversation ex-
actly; the President asked me if I recollected
the conversation had with him when took
commended the departments / told him / did;
he asked me what changes had taken place:
told him no material change, and went on to
state the changes; the President stated that
he did not refer to those changes but to some
made within day or two; l assured him that
no recent changes had been made, and told
him that under law of Congress all orders
had now to be issued through Gen. Grant; the
President asked me what order it was, and /
replied order No. IL of the series of 1867; at
this time gentleman came in, and / with
drew to the other end of the room; in the
meantime messenger had given me copy of
the order, and when the gentleman retired /
showed the order to the President, who read
and remarked, this is not in conformity
with the Constitution of the United States,
which makes me COMMANDMENTS Chief
or With the language Of your commits
sion." / replied, ''That is the order you
have approved for the guidance of the ar
N.Y." He said, "Am to understand that 1
cannot give an order except through the Gen
eral of the Army" 1 replied, such was my
opinion; told him there was considerable
discussion as to the meaning of the ORDER and
that had consulted lawyers, and was advised
that should obey the order; the lawyer l
consulted with is Robert j. Walker; I under
stood that other officers had consulted with
Reverdy johnson; supposed johnson was Of
the same opinion: the President said the OBJ
ject of the law was evident, and there the con-
yersation ended, and withdrew; did not
see Gen. Thomas that morning, so far as | can
recolect
Mr. Butler here handed witness a copy of
the order referred to by witness, and asked if
it was the same.
Witness said not exactly said this order
No. 15, not IL as stated by the witness. The
latter said his copy was numbered q.
Some delay therefore occurred in comparing
the two copies, which were denied to be the
sumo.
Witness continued his testimony stating
am still in command of the Departm' Mt.
Cross-examned by Mr.. Stanbury- When
Order No. II was sent to the officers of the ar
my there was discussion among them. This
discussion was with view to ascertain the OBJ
legations of officers under the act / received
no instructions from the War Department as
to the effect of the order. Mr.. Walker advised
me to obey only orders coming through Gen.
Grant The question whether it was constitu-
tional or not did not come up before u.s. We
concluded we would have to obey it until de-
clared unconstitutional by the courts. When
said to the President he had approved the or
der, l meant that he had approved the act
which was the only thing the order contained.
Emory's commission.
Thad. Stevens took the document and looked
carefully over it.
The order under which Gen. Thomas resum-
ed his position as Adjutant General of the
Army was next produced, and the original let
ter of Gen. Grant was ordered, requesting the
President to put in writing the verbal order he
gave the General to disobey any orders from
the War Department assumed ODE issued by
the President.
The next document produced was letter
from the President, dated Feb. 10, 1868, ad-
dressed to Gen. Grant, in relation to the lat
ter's note asking for written copy of his in
structions.
Mr.. Stanbery said it appeared that this was
aletter purporting to be a portion of the cor
respondence between Gen. Grant and the
President. He would ask the honorable man
ayers If they intended to produce the whole OF
Mr.. Wilson replied-The letter produced was
all they cared to offer.
Mr.. Stanbery asked the object of producing
this letter.
Mr.; Wilson replied-The letter went to prove
the Presidents Intention to prevent Secretary
Stanton from entering upon the discharge Of
his duties.
The letter was then read by the Secretary.
Mr. Wilson was about to offer another docu.
ment, when the Chief Justice interrunted and
instructed the Sergeant-at-Arms to bring in
the absent Senators
Mr. Stanbery asked the manager (Mr. Viii.
SOM to read the documents referred to in the
Presidents letter. .1-I-fE
Mr.. Wilson said there were no document
referred to, and he offered nothing more THAI
the letter. -
The letter was handed over to Mr.. Stanber,
who proceeded to examine it, and then rea'
that portion referring to the letters addresses
to the President by the five Secretaries. ID
asked that the letters be produced.
MI. Bingham said they were under no oDl'
gatons to produce these letters There wa
20 rue OF evidence which compelled them t.
ln1roouee the matter referred to-
Inc ohef Justice said-The counsel for tn
writing. 'i4H--
The objection was then written ont nv MI
GURUS ana read, TO the effect that fhe Iette
was not IN evidence unless the MANAGERS nro
duced the enclosures referred to therein :
Vhe Chief Justice said the letter yI,as ,,or
before the Senate. ''i was NOV
Mr.. Stanberry then said that the ,oa,oror
read letter from the President in vh;ni, 20,
erence was made to certain explanatory doc,
ments, which if not read as part of the corr