Daily Ohio statesman. [volume] (Columbus, Ohio) 1855-1870, 1868-04-11
some length that the conversation relating
to the act could not be put in evidence, if
it occurred subsequent to the commits

Mr.. STANBERY replied, contending il
was clearly admissible as bearing on the
charge of conspiracy, and calling attention
to the fact that the managers had intro
duced large amount of testimony about
conversations held long after the date in
question. They had put in evidence what
General Thomas had said when not on
oath and a fortiori. His evidence now
should be admissible.
Mr.. BUTLER rejoined, challenging the
production of legal authority to prove that
Wnat one cOnspirator said to another,
alter an act had been committed, could
be put in evidence in his favor, al
though the confessions of criminal
could always be used against him. He ex-
pressed the belief that remarks about sup
porting the Constitution and laws were
prearranged and manufactured for effect.
MIR. EVARTS reminded hearsay evil
dence of what Gen. Thomas said was in
trodueed on pledge that the President
would be connected with it. Now the
Presldents counsel propose to show from
Gen. Thomas himself what were the in
structions and what the intention of the
President.
AT Mr.. BINGHAM'S suggestion, the
question objected to was reduced to writ
ing and read by the Secretary. He then
p argued in support of the objection. He de-
MED that the managers had introduced
heresay evidence. The declarations of So
called conspirators were primary evidence
He said it was tritiipg with justice, and an
attempt to introduce utterances of an &C
cused criminal in his own behalf.
The CHIEF JUSTICE then submitted to
the Senate the question of admitting MIR.
Thomas testimony in regard to the CONVEX
sations The yeas and nays resulted 40 to so.
So the evidence was admitted.
Witness stated to the President that he
had delivered the communication to STAN
ton, and told him what answer had been
made. The President then said to him: Very
well, go on, take possession and obey the
orders. This was all that occurred. Did not
see the President again that evening. Next
morning the witness was arrested. Went
with the Marshal to the White House.. Told
the President he was in custody, and on
what charge. The President replied =
Very well, that is just where L want it, in
court. The witness then lett. At his hotel,
on giving bail, he asked Judge Cartier if
functions. The Judge replied in the neg
ative. and explained the effect of Civ
ing bail. The witness then narrated
the circumstances and conversations which
occurred after he went to the War office.
The same morning, after the members of
Congress who witnessed his interview
with Stanton, had retired, Thomas
you have me arrested, do 1t after
breakfast. / have had nothing this morn
ing to eat or drink. '[Laue hter. Stanton,
in playful manner, ran his hand through
witness hair. Well, l think, General we
have a little something here. Whereupon
General Shriver produced a bottle and
Stanton divided its contents, about spoon
tul, into two parts, and they took a drink
together. Subsequently some full bottles
were brought, and this was all the force
used that day. [Great laughter.l
Mr.. STAN BERRY asked ii the President
Ill 81.
threats to obtain possession of the War De-
partment.
Objection was made and argued by But
ler and Evarts, without any division.
The Senate allowed the question to be
put, and General Thomas replied in the
negative. When questioned as to his con-
versation with Mr.. Burleigh, he said he
his office. Had said to him
or Wilkinson that he would
call on Gen. Grant, or kick the doors down.
Knows nothing whatever about Karsener.
SupposeS he may have seen him four years
ago, when he was ill at home. Karsener
introduced himself as an old acquaintance,
hung on him by the hand while he made
the remark, several times repeated, about
Delaware having her eyes upon him
(Thomas). Karsener then asked him when
he was going to kick that fellow out, and
he adopted Karsener's words, and said he
would do it in few days. Never thought
about kicking Stanton out.
Cross examination, from March, 1863 to
February IL, 1S6S-Did not perform Office
duties OF Adjutant General. Mr.. Stanton
took to the President General Grants
commentator to relieve the witness, but
there was no unpleasant feelings between
them. Had no intimation before the 18th
of February that the President wished to
make him Secretary of War ad Interim
Swore by mistake to the contrary
when examined by the House COM
dence afterwards. He swore then he
had received an intimation to that effect,
about two weeks previously, from Colonel
Moore. Told the President at the time of
receiving his appointment he would obey
orders. Did not expect to receive any par
tlcular order when he received the note
from Col. Moore, February 1st. He did not
know what the President wanted him for.
After returning from the War Department
did not tell the President Stanton was not
going to give up the War Office, or
such was witnesses opinion. Did not show
him Stanton's letter. Did not think 1t
necessary. What he said to Wilkinson
about applying to General Grant was only
boastipg. What he said to Burleigh about
breaking down the doors he felt inclined
to do Changed his mind on this point be-
fore he was arrested. The arrest did not pro-
duce the change in his intent to use force.
Was in reverse of the Presidents order
Never expressed to the President his belief
he could not obtain possession without
force. Suggested to the President that the
best way to get possession of the papers and
mails was by issuing an order through
General Grant. The President has never
said anything to him about his published
expressions. The President has not acted
on his suggestion of how to obtain possess
sion of the papers. Had admitted before
the House committee that Karsener's testi-
mony was correct, but explained he used
the words playfully.
Cross examination concluded.
Adjourned at $40.