New-York tribune., 1868-04-03
o. pleasa read il. A. rhe witness read as follows:

found the President alone.
there sS's "f nsfny @ | and '1 state the
Of It. The words cannot undertake TO state exaetly
he had with me when first took command OF the De
partment told him that recollected the fact OF the
had made told him material changes, but such
had been made could state at onee went on 70 state
that the Fall six companies of the Goth Infantry had
been brought this city 10 Winter, but as an offset 10
them that four companies Of he 18th Infantry had Geen
detached TO SOuth Carolina on the reputation OF the COM
mander of that District two companies of artillery had
been detached by my predecessor one OF Them
the purpose OF aiding in putting down the Fenan d
cultes had been returned TO the command and that
though the number Of companies had been increased tho
numerical strength Of tine command was very much IRE
same growing out Of the order reducing the artillery ana
the minimum Of the peace establishments the President
said do not refer 10 these changes replied that he
made report of the changes, perhaps might be more
expct lie said refer to the changes within day or
tw60r something 70 that effect told him that changes
had been made! that under recent older iSS:S
the Government OF the army OF the United states
founded ON the law OF Congress- all orders had TO be
transmitted through Gen. Grant TO the army. and IN like
all orders coming from Cen Grant TO any OF lbs
partment, through me that IL by chance order had
been given 10 any junior officer OF mine II was his duty
what order do you refer 20 ~ Irepled, Order No. ~
in the series of 1862" He stated that he would see that
order and messenger dispatched for 1t. AT that
time gentleman came in, who supposed had business
N no way connected with tue business wL,eh ny III nad @ ID
While there the messenger came with the book OF orders
withdrawn returned to the President With the book in
my hand and stated would take il a favor il he
would permit to call his attention to that ORDER That
it had been passed appropriation bill, and that
thought 10 not unlikely had escaped his attention Hp
took the order and read IT, and observed This is not
in conformity with the Constitution OF the United States,
which makes me ComnandcrinChief, or with the terms
Of your commission
senator HOWARD called upon the witness TO repeat
WtnessIe said This not in conformity with the Con
stitution Of tho United states, which makes ne Com
mandernC chief or with the terms Of your commissions;
replied, that IS the order which you nave arproHca ana
issued 20 the army fOr Our government something 10
that effect cannot TccOlcct the exact words nOr DO
pretend 10 get the exact words Of the President OF the
United States cannot give order except through The
General OF the Army, or through Cen Grant; sad IN
reply that was my Impression and that the opinion
which the army entertained, and that thought the army
that subject unit; also SAID think II oly lar
Mr. President. TO say 10 you that when ms order came
10 what We're the obligations of an officer under the order
suited one, and the opinion was given me, decidedly,
not equlvocay that We were bound by the order const
tuuoIal or not constitutional
@ Did you state TO him WHO the lawyers were who had
been consulted 4. Yes
@ What did you state on that suliccti 4. Well per
hap in reference TO that pal Of NY statement was not
altogether correct; m regard 10 myself consulted Mr.
O. state what you said 20 the President whether cor
rect otherwise. \. stated that had consulted Mr.
RobcrJ Wdker reply to hs question as 90 who was
that consulted aud that understood other officers
had consulted Mr Reyerdy Johnson
those lawyers 4. stated that the lawyer whom con
suited stated 70 me that we were bound by 1t undoub
cdly, and that I understood from some officers who
supposed had consulted r Johnson that lac was OF the
same opinion.
q what did the President reply 10 thati A. Tho Prcsi
dent said the object OF the law was eyident then tho
conversation ended by NY th9nhng nm Tor the courtesy
with which lie had allowed me TO express my own
q DID you then withdraw \. ! then withdrew,
q Did you see Gen. Thomas that morning \. have
no recollection Of 10.
STATE whether hi, paper is AN an Gieia copy Of the
the order The order which had IN my hand has the ap
form tho Adiutant Generals Office, but 1t is the
substance OF the order; Is "A part OF II.
O. Is 10 so FAR as covers thls matter a IS lar as II
concerns this matter IL the same order but is not the
same copy or more properly speaking the same edition
whole appropriation b aud this is section Of the ap-
propriatlOn bill ...
O. Is this handing the witness another paper an official
q This observe IS headed order No Is. aud you said
ont order refer 10 the same order think order
10 - - c one containing ne apI9pila%on % Dnl, ana
confusion IN the first place said order No 10 or IT, but
order No. ~, think embraces the appropriation hiL
MI BUTLER handing the paper 10 the Presidents :
Mr. EVARTs said. then we will treat this as order No
J.. unless there should be a difference.
Mr. BUTLER said there was 10 difference ana he read
the order, as follows:
wAr,DErARrvEyT. ADJursyT GESIHN' ogrcr,
WA,nAGiOy March u. l155
orprrs No l5T1e foao.ng oIine, oa N ,e o
ss,ne An AS making s e. a. % 5 t5 ,1s s,o' voc sa' &
be q enacted I1i The sd}asfiet' S i General o the A,y
sed instruction. re@gs 10 military Sg2n,% gs H. is 1 % rfe,2 ts9
Of The Army shall be relieved suspended or rtnoved
at the ilealqaaeg except at h1 o.h Isg.e,i Win hh.
relating military operations contrary the rsqusmelis of
section BE- ra ard od a@ sHy oae s.pq an order q a,,uS
uiemesnos h oae and officer Of the Sho shall transmit
s,on moving such oders were susd hi be liable 70
Imprisonment not s than years and not more th'H 20 a, Ss con
? iS6s By order OF tie secreisry Of War
- j. b. TowSsESD, Assistant 40 uani Gersral
Q. You are still in command Of this Department A
~ er
q. The paper which you had and which was read ny
he President that day marked order No. H. A.
@ In that paper marked IS was the whole Appropria
ton act printed and set out A. Yes
q. In Otherrespecs II was like this A. In 0ther re-
spects 1t was like that The copy file 40 my office con
tains the Appropriation bill, and may have coniounded
O. II is your impression that the paper which You had
at the Presidents on which was read by You al The Pre-
@. As / understand YOU when this document OF No II
sent to the officers OF the Army there was discus
O. see that this document contains no construction Of
the act but simply gives the act for their nformatoni
a. ON reading the act y discussion arose among the
@. As TO It's meaning or WHAT A. Aliscussion with
view of ascertalnng what an officers obligations under
O. You had received no instructions from the War Dc
this document itselfl A. None whatever
Q. 1t left You then to eonstrne the aeti A, Yes.
@ On that you say to settle your doubts you applied
TO an eminent lawyers A. had no doubts myself 10
settle the doubts Of others did.
Q. And the gentleman TO whom you applied was Mr..
Robert j. WalkeTl A. Yes.
Q. Was 1t he who advised You that you was bound TO
obey orders given through Gen Grant whether IL
unconstitutional TO send orders that
way A. The question OF Constitution was not raised
il was only question whether we were bound by the
order.
O. understand you 10 say that the answer was con.
stitutOnal or unconstitutional 7" A. Then made a
mistakes my question was whether We were bound by IT,
would like 10 correct that.
O. You said in a former answer that the advice was
that you bound TO obey the order whether II was
unconstitutional not until 10 was decided A, We had
no right to judge Of the Constitution.
O. That was the advice you gotf A. Yes
q. Decided by whom and where A. BY the Supreme
Int nrllnI.