The New York herald. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, 1868-04-18

disposed oil the IreSiuenL feniarkeO tha peioiN
Cabinet separated it was proper for him 10 Say ,
he had removed Mr.. stanton and appointed hulu"ii
General Thomas Secretary 81 o War w. vas in posses
| sion and the President said he was. 'nd"NN
whether .,., ~ WINS
Senator HOWARD rose and complained tha' IL was
| impossible to hear the witness. ,,,aro vos 100
| The CHIEF JUSTICE remarked tnat UNIV ~ 49,
''" The Wv witness cohtinued-I inquired whether
General Thomas was In possession, , amy reopred
dent said that he was but that MT. stanton on requeu
some little time TO remove his writingsMhs papers.
said, perhaps asked poes he nndort,,o% ~
ae tF EU,nrsWas il part of the Presidents
answer that IAN Mr. stanton required was uiae 10
| Witness The president made that remark when
| manfred II General Thomas was In possession.
| d WAS the time at which this announcement OF
| the President was made in accordance with the or
binary routine of your meetings as to such subjects
A. II was the President usually communicated after
the secretaries had got through with the several de-
pa Now as to matter which he spoke of inciden-
| tay You were there the next morning A. | was.
| O. While there did you see the appointment OF Mr..
EwingS A. did.
| you were there? A. While was there.
Q. And you then saw it? A. then saw it.
@. The Attorney General was there and said he
must be at the Supreme Court. Does not the Su-
preme Court meet at eleven o'clock A. think his
business was at twelve O'Clock.
O. Did you become aware of the passage of the Civil
Tenure Of Ohice act, as it is called, at the time it
passed Congress? A. was aware OF It,
O. Were you present at any Cabinet meeting at
which, after the passage OF that act the act became
the subject of considerations A. was there on Two
@. Who were present, and what was done the
first occasion? A. The first occasion was, think, on
| Friday the 26th of February 1857.
| q. At the Cabinet meeting who were present. A.
| think all the Cabinet were.
| Q. Was Mr.. Stanton there? A. Mr.. Stanton was
there. Think that occasion; the President said
| that he had two bills about which he wanted to be
advised one Of these was -
Mr.. BUTLER Cnterrupting-we object to evidence
| Of what took place there.
Nj. EvARTs TO the witness)-Ths Civil Tenure of
| Office the subject of consideration thereY A.
| 1t submitted there.
O. AS a matter Of consideration for the Cablnet9
A. For consultation and for the advice of members of
@. How did he submit the matter to your consid-
erationa
| thing he said we object.
| Mr.. EvARTs-Yes, 1t does.
| Mr.. BuTLER--We object to anything which took
place in the Cabinet consultation, and in order to
have this brought to point we should like the offer
| of proof to be IN writing
| The CHIEF JUSTICE directed the counsel for the
| President to put their offer in writing
Mr. EvARTs-We will present the whole matter in
| writing
Some fifteen minutes were occupied by the counsel
| in considering and preparing the Offering of evil
dence, during which lime the Senator's and members
the floor and the spectators in the gallery kept up
| quite noisy conversation.
Butler for examination, and was then read as fol.
| lows-"We offer TO prove that the President, at a
meeting OF the Cabnet, while the bill before the
President for his approval laid before the Cabinet
the Tenure OF Civil ONCE bill for their consideration
and advice to the President respecting his approval
Of the bill, and that thereupon the members of the
Cabinet then present gave their advice to the Presi.
dent that the bill was unconstitutional, and should
he returned Congress with his objections and that
the duty OF preparing message setting forth the
objections to the constitutionaty of the bill
| VOWED upon Mr.. Seward and Mr. Stanton This to
| be followed by proof as to what was done by the
President and Cabinet up to the time of sending the
message by the President"
senator SHERMAN-Does that offer give the datef
Mr.. EvARTs-lt gives the date as during the time
rvha Tho nil lxvae hafnr 10
Senator COMMUNICATING the ten daysY
Mr.. EvARTs-We omitted the precise date because
Mr.. BuTLxR-I assume, Mr.. President and sena-
tors the purpose OF this objection, that the time
days between first passage Of the bill by the two
houses and the time OF its return with
I ton. | only propose TO open the debate in
order that my learned friends may be able to possess
question is, whether after a law has been passed
under the due forms OF law the President can show
what his opinions were and what the opinions OF ms
Cabinet were before It was passed. as Justification
for refusing to obey IL and execute 1t. venture to
say to you, Senators, that heretofore the struggle
has been on the trials OF impeachment whether the
| Kings order should sustain the Minister. and l
was somewhat sharply reminded how familiar
stitution" and that therefore the Minister
your attention in the trial OF impeachments In for
mer times was whether King not being considered
der or advice to minister could Shield the mRIsts5
and The British ia! dice for his justca-
ciaea Una. n the King That decision thought
to great point gained Now the Propositions have
We got King who IL responsible If he can have the
ministers to shield himf That is the proposition
whether the advice OF the Cabinet Ministers can
shield The King; in other words whether the consti
tuition has placed these points Of the departments
around him as aids shields; that Is the question.
Because il that can be done, then the question Of
impeachment is ended in this country for any breach
Of law, for no President then will be, who cannot
Gnd subseryent Cabinet Ministers to advise
| him xauta advised cam
ciaIly so, II the Senate settle the propo.
sltion here that the Cabinet Ministers dependent
upon his will, and that he cannot be restrained by
law nom removing them. He told the senate in his
message that II Mr.. Stanton had told him that lac
removed him before 1t went into effect II the Pre-.
sident has that power any President can find
| Cabinet subservent enough to him TO give him ad-
VICE and II that advice can shield him, then Is the
| end OF impeachments
message the honorable Manager Is referrings
l Mr. BUTLER-I was referring to the message OF De-
cember u. 1867 in which this language Is used in
ton appears in my remarks; that II Mr. stanton IN.
formed Min that he believed the law constitutional
he would have taken care to remove him before It's
n say saa, N Unlimited p s
Tended himself by his Cabinet. Let us look at il in
the light OF another great criminal, whom you, Mr..
another aliadina to Jefr Davisl / have no doubt
that he had a Cabinet around him by whose advice
he could defend himself for most OF the treason he
| have had gentlemen say to me on this question:
| Would you not allow q military commander who
| should either give battle or forbear battle
| 10 show that he called q council OF his officers
to show what their advice was so az to justify him
In the case OF his refusal to give BATTLE or his giving
battle imprudentlys To that mean to answer that
| l would do so, but ! make wide distinction.
would not let any General call around MIN MS stan
| officers and those depending upon his breath for
their Official existence and allow him to show their
| opinions as his authority for his acts.
to argue this case. proposed simply when
| arose to open the proposition, and l
desire TO put In single authority as justinca-
ton for what have had the honor TO say, that JET
ferson thought 1t the better opinion that the const
tutiona right OF the Cabinet was TO give opinions In
writing. | read ON this subject from note 3 section