The New York herald. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, 1868-04-18
IMP B AC II N B N L.
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interview took place, at which TINS subject was men,
tton.ad9 A. The President reiharkeu-
Mr. EyARrs unterruptng)-No nfatter; state
WEATHER Il was. A. IL was.
O. what passed between you and the President at
Mr. BUTLER objected.
on motion the Senate here took recess of fifteen
Afier recess the examination or Secretary Weles
discontinued by Mr.. Evarts.
q. Did the President make any communicatiou to
ysH on this decision concerning the removal OF Mr.
Stanton and the appointment Of General Thomas?
answer yes or no. A: Yes, he did
: Q. Was this before this Cabinet meeting had broken
fup, or at what step OF your meeting was itY A. We
had got through with our department business and
were about separating when The President re-
married.
Mr.. EvARTs Qnterrupting)-w were present. A.
believe all were present, unless 1t was Mr. Stanton
. Mr.. EvARTs-NOw, offer to prove thai on this &C
casion the President communicated to Mr.. Welles
and the other members. OF the Cabinet before the
meeting broke up that he had removed Mr.. stanton
and appointed General Thomas Secretary OF war
ed interim, and that upon the inquiry of MI Weles
whether General Thomas was in possession on tne
0ffce that the President replied he was, ana upon
further question OF Mr.. Weiles whether Mr. stanion
acquiesced the President replied that ne dld all tat
he required was time to remove his papers: 49,
Mr.. BUTLER-I want TO call the attention v o. ae
counsel 10 this question. ] understand Mr. Wehes
that II was after the Cabinet meeting broke up .
Mr.. EyARTs-No, have put that, according 10 tiie
fact that IL was when they ilad GOT throt5h VIII
what he calls their department business, anu peiole
the act OF breaking up that the President mace that
Mr.. BUTLER objected that it could not be evidence.
He said that IL was now made certain that this act
was done without any consultation OF his Cabinet
by the President, either verbally or otherwise. The
President had no right consult his Cabinet except
by the constitutional method. JEFFERSON had taken
the same view on this question which he tMr. Buter
had heretofore taken before the Senate the consti-
tuition for good purposes required the President when
he wished the advice OF his Cabinet TO ask In writ
ing, 30 that 1t might appear for all time what that
advice was. That was because there had been at
tempts made in the trial OF impeachment OF members
Of the Cabinet put in the fact of the advice by Or
der Of the King 10 the Cabinet or the ADVICE OF the
various members Of the Cabinet to each other. That
was exploded In the Earl OF Danburys case. That
question had been settled then, so that II should not
arise thereafter He glad to learn that the Presi
dent was solely responsible and acted upon his
sole responsibility without the advice OF his Cabinet.
Gould the President then, by his narrative OF what
he had done and what he had intended TO do, defend
himself before tins tribunal from the consequences
OF his acts II was exactly the same question almost
unanimously decided yesterday in The case OF Mr..
Perrin and Mr.. Seelye where conversation OF few
minutes, earlier or later was ruled out. This was
~ inform him and the rest of the Cabinet Of what
had been done and that after the Cabinet meeting
while they were talking together as any other Cit.
Zens might DO. 1t would be as II a question should
be attempted TO be pat In this case aiter the court
adjourned.
thing to show that the act OF removal or appoint
ment took place without previous advice from the
Cabinet. However that TACT might be, all that APP
peared was that Mr.. Welcs had not then heard or
the fact that they had taken place. The Manager
had perhaps not heard what the witness said but the
~
2lst OF February when the routine business OF the
different departments was over, and when 1t was In
order for the President TO communicate to his Cabi-
net whatever he designed to say before them, the
President did communicate this fact Here they got
rid Of the suggestion that it was mere communica-
ton to casual visitor which was the argument in the
OF Perrin and Seelye. Here was yet in ef being
DONE and they were entitled TO have brought In
a. part OF the res gest0 in Its sense as govern
mental act, with all the benefit that would come
from il as 10 the intent Of the President to place the
Once in aproper condition for the public service as
announced by him to General Sherman the preceding
January. II negatived the idea that the President
responsible for the statements Of General Thomas
to Wilkeson or Bureigh, and presented the matter
In Its true light as peaceful movement OF the Presi
dent Of the United States.
Mr.. CURTIS wished it to be remembered that they
did not base their argument that this was admissible
upon the ground that 1t was advice from the Cabinet
10 the President, but because 1t an official act,
done by the President himself, in proper manner.
tn subject matter of the information being such as
they were all interested in, though somewhat In ad
vance OF the question which must presently arise, he
would take up the matter OF advice and opinions OF
Cabinet officers referred TO by the Manager. Mr..
Curtis then quoted the FederdttSt and other authori.
time Of Jefferson down to the present day,
the Cabinet had acted and voted as council.
Of which the President was member he having
the power TO decide q question independently Of
them, IL he chose. When thus assembled he held
that any communication made to the Cabinet by the
President respecting official act, then IN TERI was
competent evidence He reminded them that IN
England the ministers OF the crown are responsible
themselves for their acts and not s In this country
precedens were not applicable.
Mr.. BLTLER, in reply, said he wonid not pursue
snee il was argued by the counsel that
none was either given or asked. He sup
posed no act would be called an official one
that was not required by some law or some duty.
Frequently acts done by an officer were onlcNn2ar
not official. Could the counsel q6py, Ill: nal pro-
what law what practice G required to inform his
Cabnet Oh the subject was the act OF March p 1867
N1adiring him TO inform the Secretary OF the
Treasury for the purpose OF notifying the accounting
officers In order that the person removed cOuld not
get his salary, and the President had informed the
Secretary of the Treasury especially in conformity
with that act.
MIR. BUTLER called attention to the fact that while
the counsel excepted 10 his statement that 1t was In
evidence that TINS was not q consultation OF the
Cabinet, they had not stated that the Cabinet was
ever consulted about the matter That being waived
by the counsel, and this not being an offcial act,
how could IL be evidenceS He (Mr. Buterl was will
ing 10 admit that at that time the President had no
idea Of using force because he thought Stanton was
already out quietly, but what had he meant to do In
case stanton should resist? General Sherman had
let out that something was said between him and the
President about force though he could not remember
what II was They might admit TINS as OF little mo.
ment, but II so they must admit all declarations to
other members OF the Cabinet or Involve themselves
IN Inconsistency. He still unable to distinguish
any difference between the declarations to Perrin
and those TO Wees, other than that one was Cabinet
oficer and the other was not While It was admitted
that this was not made for the purpose OF asking
advice, but they proposed TO put IN what the Presi-
Gent thought then he would do.
Mr.. EvARTs could not consent that the testimony
, 81 General sherman should be misrepresened or
misconceved. II was that when something was said
about force the President said" There will be no
force stanton win retire. and that all the auson to
force was originated by witness himself, the Presi-
dent having conveyed no idea TO his mind that force
was TO be used.
evidence was admissible as u part OF q transaction
that forms the basis Of several Of the articles, and
Judgment In regard to the intent Of the President.
Some Senators asked for avote.