Memphis daily appeal. [volume] (Memphis, Tenn.) 1847-1886, 1866-02-11

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timated his importance just in proper
ton to the number of slaves that his
master owned, with the non-slaveholder.
Have you never lived upon a plantation?
Mr. Douglass. 81 have, your excel
lency."
The President. When you would
look over and see a man who had a large
family struggling hard upon a poor piece
Of land, you thought a great deal less of
him than you did of your own master. -
Mr.. Douglass. "NotI.n
The President. wei / know such
was the case with a large majority of
you in those sections where such is the
case. We know there is an enmity. We
know there is a hate. The poor white
man, on the other hand, was opposed TO
the slave and his master, for the colored
man and his master, combined, kept him
in slavery, by depriving him of a fair
participation in the labor and produe-
tons Of the rich lands Of the country.
Don't you know that the colored man,
in going to hunt a master, As they called
it, for the next year, preferred hiring to
a man who owned slaves, rather than TO
one who didn't? 1 know the fact, at all
events.
Mr.. Douglass. Because they treated
him better.
The President. They did not consider
it quite as respectable TO hire to a man
who did not own negroes as 70 hire to
one who did.
Mr.. Douglass. Because he wouldn't
be treated as well"
The President "Then that is another
argument in favor of what l am going to
saw. 1t shows that the colored man esti-
timated the slave owner more highly
than he did the man who did not own
slaves.n
Hence the enmity between the eol0red
man and the nOp-slavehOlders. n
white man was permitted TO vote before
the Government was devised. He IS a
part and parcel Of the political machinery
now. by rebellion or revolution and
when YOU come back 10 the ohjectsot TINS
war YOU find that the abolition OF slavery
was not one of the objects. =
Congress and the President declared
that it was on u part, in order TO sup
press the rebellion. The abolition OF
slavery has come as an incident to the
suppression of the great rebellion. As
an incident we should give to 1t the
properdirectiOn. The colored man went
into this rebellion as a slave.
By the operation of the rebellion he
| came out a freedman equal tOa freedman
in other portions of the country. There
is a great deal done for him on this
point. The nOn-slavehOlder who was
forced into the rebellion, and wasas loyal
as those that lived beyOndJhellmltsot the
slave State, were carried into il, and the
propertv, and in q number Of instances,
the lives of such were sacrificed. And he
| who has survived has come out Of it with
/ nothing gained, but a great deal lost.
Now, D o a principle Of justice, should
they be placed in a condition different TO
what they were before?
On one hand one has gained a gleat
deal. On the other hand n has lost a
! great deal, and, in a political point OF
view, scarcely stands where he did be-
fore.
Now we are talking about where we
| are going to begin. We have got at the
hate that existed between the two races.
The query comes up whether these TWO
races, situated as they were before, With
out preparation, without time, Tor passion
and excitement, TO be appeased, n
without time for the slightest improve
meut, and whether the One should be
turned loose upon the other, and be
thrown together at the ballot-boN, with
this hate and enmity existing between
them. The query, ! say, comes up, VIII
we not then commence a war OF races
[ think I understand this thing, and es-
peciallv is this the case, when you force
il upon a people without their consent.
You have spoken about the Government.
Where is the power derived We say II
is derived from the people. Let US take
it so and refer it to the District Of Column
bia by way Of illustration. Suppose, for
instance, here in this political commu-
nitV, which, to a certain extent, must
have government, must have law, and
putting il now upon the brOadest basis
YOU can get il. Take into consideration
the relation which the white has hereto
fore borne TO the colored race, is il proper
to force upon this community, without
their consent, the elective franchise,
without regard 10 color, making II uni
versal? The Government must have a
controlling pOwer-must have a lodg-
ment.
For instance, suppose Congress should
pass a law authorizing an election to be
held, at which all over twenty-one years
of age, without regard 10 color, shouldbe
allowed to vote, and a majority should
decide at such election that the elective
franchise should be universal, what
would YOU do about il ? Who would set
tie it . Do you deny that the first great
principle Of the right of the people to
govern themselves . Win you resort TO
an arbitrary power, and say that a ma
iority Of the people shall receive a state
of things they are opposed to?
Mr.. Douglass. "That was said before
the war"
The President. q am now talking
about a principle, not what somebody
said.n
Mr.. Downing. Apply what you have
said, Mr.. President, to South Carolina,
for instance
The President. Suppose you 90 to
South Carolina or 10 Ohio that does not
change the principle at all. The query
to which l have referred still comes up.
When our Government Is undergoing a
fundamental change of government,
commenced upon this principle, and has
existed upon it, now you propose 10 in
corporate an element that did not exist
before in il. / say the query comes up,
in undertaking this thing, whether we
have a right 10 make a change in regard
to the elective franchise, in Ohio, for in
stance, and whether we shall not let the
people in that State decide the matter
themselves. Each community is better
prepared to determine the depository of
political power than anybody else and
it is for the Legislature, or the people, of
Ohio 10 say who shall vote or not for the
Congress of the United States.
l might % down here to the ballot
box tomorrow and vote directly for uni
versal suffrage; but if 4 great majority
Of this people said no, | should consider
it would be tyrannical and arbitrary in
me to attempt 10 force it upOn them with
out their will. 1t is a fundamental text
in my creed that the will of the people
must be Obeyed when fairly expressed.
Is there any thing wrong or unfair in
that?
Mr.. Douglass, smiling. "A great deal
wrong, Mr.. President, with all respect
The President. 1.-THE people must de-
termine that for themselves. l do not
want 70 be engaged in a work that viii
commence a war OF the races. In each
community, if a man shows that this
new state of affairs will operate well, he
will be protected in ali his rights and
given every possible advantage by that
community. When they have become 1
reconciled socially and politically to GER
tain things, then will this new order Of
affairs work harmoniously. But, forced
upon the people before they are prepared
for it, 1t VIII be resisted.
1 feel a conviction that forcing that
upon the people will result in the
of both races, and the ruin of one
lr the other. God knows, / have no de
ire but the good of the whole human
ace. / would il were so that all you adj
-ocate could be done in the twinkling of
NJ eve. But il is not in the nature Of
and / do not assume or pretend 10
DC wiser han Providence, or stronger
han the laws Of nature Let US now
eek to discover the laws governing this
question. There is a great law control
ing il. Let Us endeavor 10 find out what
hat law is and conform action to il.
All the details viii then properly adjust
themselves and work well in the end.
Tod knows that anything ! can do in the
process by which the great end
5 to be reached, any thing l Ear do to
levate the races, to soften and amelio-
ate their condition, / will do, and to be
BILE 10 do so l. the sincere desire of my
leart. ! am glad ! have met you, and l
hank you for the compliment you have
aid me.'
M. Douglass. Il have to return you
ur thanks, Mr.. President, for 50 kindly
ranting us this interview. We did not
ONE here expecting to argue this ques-
ion with your eXcellency, but simply TO
tate what were our views and wishes in
he premises. II we were disposed to ar
ne the question, and you would grant us
emission, of course we would endeavOr ,
D cOntroyert some Of the propositions
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