, 1865-12-25

RATM0ND,S REPLY TO STEVENS
He Denies that Rebel States HRva
Become COnuucrd TeTritor}ea.

| - - 1was glad when perceives
the dis tingutshed gentlemen from PcpusYl
| van1a {Mr- Steyeusl, himself the Chairman, Of
the patt Of this Nouse, Of the great Commit
tee on Reconciliation, lead Oft 10 discussion
OF thls general subject, md TINS invite all ths
| bate. In the remarks which he made
| IN this body a few days since, be
laid down, With the clcarness and the force
Which characte1izcs everything he says and
| does, Ills point Of departure In commencing
| this great work. had hoped that the ground
ne would lay down would be such that We
| could all Of us stand upon II, and cooperate
with him In our common object. I feel con.
strained to eay, sir, and do It Without the
slightest disposition to create or 10 cxasger.
ate differences, that there were points ii his
exposition Of the country with which can.
| not concur cannot for myself start from
| precisely the point which he assumes. In biz
remarks on that occasion he assumed that
the States l.tcly In rebellion were aud are out
of the Unto;i. Throughout his speech--I vii
not troulI you with reading passages from 1t
i find lii speaking OF tho States as "out-
side Of lie Un!on,n as "dead States" as
having forfeited all their rights and termi-
mated ;..eir State existence" find expires.
sio'a still more definite and distinct. I find
i him etaling that !" they are and for four years
have been out Of the Union 1or all legal pur-
p'sts," al "haylng been for four years sep
| nI:::c rower and q separate nation" His posi-
IT, II. therefore, Is that these States having been
| rtLv::4iuus are now out CT the Union, and
simply within the Jurisdiction Of the Cousti.
tuition Of tho United States Is SO much terri
tory to be dcalt with precisely Is the will OF
the conqueror-to us0 his own language
may dictate. Nov, sir, II that position Is
correct, it prcscsibes for sls one line Of policy
that will be proper Ii 1t is not correct. His
belief Is that what We have to do Is to create
new States out Of this territory at the proper
time. many years distant, retaining them
meantime In a territorial condition, aud SUBJ
jecting them 10 precisely ouch state Of dis
ernmcnt Of the United States may zee lit to
prescribe. If ! believed in the premises
which he assumes, possibly-thongh do not
think probably might agree with the con-
clusion lc reaches. but, sir, cannot believe
| that this is our condition. cannot believe
that these States have ever been out of the
Union, or that they are now out OF the Union.
l cannot believe that they ever have been OF
are now IN any scnsc separate power. Ii
they were, sir, how and when did they be-
como sos they were once States OF this
union-that every one concedcs- bound to
by the Constitution OF the United States. Ii
they ever went out Of the Union it was At
s0mc specified time, aud BY some specific act.
I regret that the gentleman from pcnnsy ytrania
tAr. Stevens, is not now In lis sent. should
havc been glnd to ask him By what specific act
and at Whist precise time any one Of these
States took itself out of the American Union
WAS 1t by the ordinance Of secession.
think We all ngree that m ordinance OF Sc
ccseion passed by any States of this Union,
Is simply a nullity, because 1t encounters
In this practical operation the Constitution
Of the United States, which is the su-
prcme law Of the 1and- II could haye no le-
gal, actual torcc or validity. 1t could not
operate 10 ctcct any change In the relation of
the State adopting 1t TO the National Govern
mcnt. still less to accomplish the removal Of
the State fium the sovereign jurisdiction Of
the Constitution Of tie United States. We'll,
siE, did the resolutions OF these Statcs. the
declarations Of their officials, the speeches of
members Of their Legislaturcs, or the utter
ances Of their press. accomplish tho result:
Certainly not: They could not possibly work
any change whatever In the relations Of these
States to the General Government. All tleiT
ordinances md all their resolutions were
SIMPLY declarations OF purpose to secede.
Their secession, If II ever took place, certain-
II could not date from the time when their
intention to secedc WIS first announced.
After declaring that intention, they procecd-
ed 10 carry It into effect. bow! By war-by
sustaining their purpose BY arms against the
force which the United States brought to
bear against It, Did they sustain it : Were
their aEms Sictor1ouss Ii they were, tlen
their accession Was m accomplished fact. II
not, It Was nothing more t1tan IN abortive nt-
simply question Of tact, aud We all know
what the fact is. They did not succeed
they failed 10 maintain their ground by torc.
Of a1ms-ln other words, they failed to secede.
There was nothing in the opinion oil the So
prime Court In the cases quoted by 3lr.
Stevens 10 show that the rebel States were
an independent community OF a separate
nation. 4 separate nation would have had
the right to contract the debts, and we being
the conqucrors would be tho SUCCESSORS Of
the debt. Mr.. Raymond repeated that
,sd We have re-; to deal i' With the Southern States
however, that new guarantees shalt ba
given before the South il isadnlitted to 1eprescu-
tation. He was as anxious now as he Was
during the war TO see the Union restored,
He would do nothing to lissever the Union,
as the rebels had In vain attempted. lie
looked Oh the S0uth as part Of Ehe Union.
and Was for pursuing such policy as would
have the best effect. He was AGAINST impos-
ing con6scat1on, but would require reprcseu-
tatives from that section to he loyal aud
national men representing loyal constitucn.
cies. Indeed, the unin feature which dlstiu-
Euishcs the uhion under the Constitution
from the old confederation Is this, that,
whereas the old confederation did deal with
the States directly, making rcquisitions upon
Tic esecnstop ef It's iaas' he e Sonsti:nttop s tou
Of the United States, IN order to form a more
perfect Union, maae It's laws binding on the
individual citizens Of the several States,
whether living in one State, or in another.
Congress, as the legislative branch Of
this Government enncts Law which shall be
operative upon every individual within Its Ju-
risdfction. 1t Is binding upon each individual
citizen, and ii he resists 1t By force, he Ia
guilty Of 4 crime, and is punished accordingly,
anything IN tha Constitution or laws OF Lis
49, n =,
the States themselves are not touched by the
laws Of the United States, or by the Coustitu-
tion OF the United States. a State cannot be
indicted. State cannot be tried, State cam
not be hung for treason. The individuals in
4 State may be tried, and hanged, but the
bcr OF the Union, still exists, whether its indi-
yidual citizens commit treason or not.
Alr. kEL1Y-1 desire to ask the gentleman
this question: By virtue OF what does State
exist! Is It By virtue Of Constitution, and
by virtue Of It's relations to the Union: In
by virtue Of q Constitution, and, secondly, bF
virtue Of It's practical relations to the Gov
ernmcnt Of the United States. And further,
1would ask, whether those States, acting by
conventions Of the people, have not over
thrown the Constitution which made them
parts Of the Union, and thereby destroyed or
snspended-phrase II Is as you wil1-the prac-
tical relations which made them parts OF the
Union:
Mir. RArAoxpI will say in reply to the
gentleman from Pennsylvania {Mr. Kelly that
It is not the practical relations Of State at
or part Of the Union. What makes State
part Of the Union Is the Constitution Of the
United States. aud the rebel States hare not
yet destroyed that.
Mr. kEILx-Thc question proposed Is
whether State does not exist BY virtue Of
liz tt41@f4 ~-1,S
thing Which may be modified or overthrowu.
Mr. RAYMOND Certainly.
Mr.. hELLY-And whether these febc1lious
constitutions or States hare not been over
thrown.
Mr.. RAYMoSp-A State does not exist by
virtue Of any particular constitution. It A.
why's Las constitution; but it need not have
a specific constitution at any specific time. 4
State Inns certain political relations 10 the
Government Of the United States; but the
iact Of these relations being practically ope-
ratiye, and in actual force at any moment,
does not constitute Its relationship to the
government, OF Its membership OF the United
States. Its practical operation is ono thing.
The fact Of Its existence as an ozgunized com
munity- Of the great national community
Of 8tatce-is quite another thing.
Mr.. hELLf-Let me interrupt the gentle
man one moment longer. i Hlll ask him
whether, If the Constitution be orerthrown or
destroyed and its practical relations c.ase,
there be any State lcft.
Ar. RAYMOND ! State does not exist By
virtue Of any particular Constitution. It al
ways has Constitution; but itneed not have
d specific Constitution at any specific time.
A State has certain political relations to the
Government OF the United States, but the fact
Of those relations being practically operative
md IN force at any moment does moi consti-
tute lis relationship TO the Government or its
membership of the United States. Its prncti-
cal operation is one thing, the fact Of lis exis-
tence as an organized community Of the
great national community Of states-is quite
another thing.
Mr. KELLI-Let me interrupt the gentle
man one moment longer. I will ask him
whether, if the Constitution be orerthrown
or destroyed and its practical relations cease,
there bc any State 1cft-
MIR. RArNosp-Nhy, sir; il there be no
Of any sort In State, no Law,
nothing but chaos, than that State would no
longer exist as an organization: but that has |
not been the case. It never Is the case iu
great communities, for they always have Con- |
and forms Of Governments. 1t may
not he Constitution OF form Of Government
adapted 10 It's relation TO the Government Of |