New-York daily tribune., 1865-12-22

different from the one that will be proper If It Is not
correct. His belief is that what we nave 10 90 s 70
create new States out Of this territory at the proper
time many years distant, retaining them meantime IN
territorial condition and subectng them 70 Precsey
such a state OF discipline ana ,uselage as
Congress or the Government of the United States may
see III TO prescribe If believed in the premises wMcn
he assumes possbly-though do not think propaply-
might agree with the conclusion ne reachc'' D.'
sir cannot believe that this is our condtlon. I'm az
not believe that these States have ever been OUT Vi ln
Union or that they are ont Of the Union cannot
believe that they have been or are now IN any
sense separate power II they weres now and WEN M
did they become soi They were once states o, .nis
Union-that every cOncedes-bounl 10 tne nion
and made members Of the Union by the Constitution Oh
the United Stotes II they ever went out OF the Union
was at some aDecifed time and by some specihc ac'.
/ regret that the gentleman from Pennsylvania lMr.
Stevens) is not IN his seat. l should nave Deen
glad TO ask him by what specific act and at wnat
precse time any one Of these States took itself out OF
the American Unon-was 1t by the ordinance of Seces'
sion think all agree that an ordinance OF seces
sion passed by any State Of this Union is simply null
lity because il encounters in this practical operation
The Constitution OF the United States which is the 50.
prene law of the land IL could have no legal actual
force or validity 1t could not operate to effect any
change in the relation of the State adopting 1t the
tiona Government still less TO accomplish the remoyalo OF
the State from the sovereign jurisdiction OF the Consti
tuition Of the United States Well, sir, did the re;ou'
tions Of these States the declarations OF the oncas
the speeches Of members OF their Legislatures or tnc
utterances Of their press accomplish the result yer
tainy not They cOnd not possibly Work any cnange
whatever in the relations Of these States to the Gener
Government All their ordinances and all their resou'
tions were simply declarations OF purpose to secede
Their secession if it ever took place, certainly couu
no. date from the time when their intention 10 seceue
was first announced. After declaring that INTENTION
thew proceeded 10 carry it into effect HOwt by war
by sustaining their purpose by arms against the
force which Unted States brought to bear against
IL Did thew sustain IL Were their arms VICTORIOUS
II they were then their secession accomplished
fact II not IL was nothing more than an abolye at
tempt-a purpose unfufIed. This, then, is simply q
allE Epn,r nh hot faati ig
did not succeed-tLey failed to maintain their ground by
force of armsin other words they failed to seeede.
There was nothing in the opinion OF the Supreme court
in the quoted by Mr. Stevens to show tnat the
Rebel States were an independent community or
eeparate nation. \ separate nation would nave Dad
the rgh 10 contract the debts and we being the con-
onerors would be the OF the debt sr Ray
mond that we have to deal with the Southern
States as States under the Constitution lie
contended, however. that new guarantees shai
be given before the South is admitted TO represen'
tation. He was as anxious now he was during the
war 10 see the Union restored, He would do nothing
10 dssever the Union as the Rebels had IN VAIN az.
tempted. He looked on the South as a part Oh tne
Union, and was for pursuing snch policy as
would have the best effect. He was against
imposing confscatien. but would require repre-;
sentatiyes from that section TO be loyal and
national men representing loyal constituencies
Indeed the main feature which distinguishes the mon
under the Constitution from the old confederation IS
this that whereas the old confederation did deal with
the States directly. making requsitlons upon the or
snpnes aud relying upon them for the execution
of lis Laws. The Constitution OF the United States,
in order 70 form a more perfect Union made
its laws binding on the individual eiIl.eSs rs. oi
tho several States. whether living in one state
or in another Congress the legislative branch OF
his Government, enacts law Wnich snau pe
operative upon every individual within ITS jurisdicton
II il binding upon each individual citizen and If he re-
ssts II by force he is guilty of crime and Is punished
accordingly anything in the Constitution or laws OF nis
State to the contrary Ds' & .ne nI,ss
States or by the Constitution of the United Sates
State cannot be indicted, State cannot be tried,
a State cannot be hung Tor treason: Inc IN,
dividnals in State may be tried, and
but the State as an organization as an organic
member OF the Union still exists whether Its indivdua
citizens commit treason or not.
| Mr. KYILY-Will the gentleman from New. York
(Mr RAYMOND yield TO me moment for question
Mr. RAYMoSD-Certainy.
Mr. KELLEY-I desire 10 ask the gentleman the ques'
tion by virtue of what does State exist Is u by
virtue OF Constitution, and by virtue OF its relations
10 the Union. What in does State OF the Union
existi First by virtue OF Constitution and secondly,
nv vrtue of its practical relations to the Government or
the United States. And further would ask whether
those States acting by Conventions OF the people haye
not oyerthrown the Constitution which made them
parts Of the Unon aud thereby destroyed or suS'
pended-phrase it as you wi-the practical relations
which made them parts of the unioni
Mr.. RAYMoSD-l will say in reply TO the gentleman
from PENNSYLVANIA (Mr. Kelly that 1t Is not tue prac.
teal relations of State at any. particular moment
which make il a State ora part of the Union. What
makes a State part of the Union is the Constitution OF
Mr.. KELLY-The questioh1 proposed is whether
State does not exist by virtue OF constuton--its
onstituton--which is thing which may be modified
or oycrthrownt
Mn EAYMoSD-Certainly.
Mr. KFLLY-And whether these rebelii0u5 Constltu
tions or States have not been oyerthrowni
Mr. RAYMoND-A State does not exist by virtue OF
any particular constitution. IL always has constitu
tion but need not have specific constitution at any
specific time. State has certain political relations TO
the Government OF the United States but the fact OF
those relations being practically operative and N
actual force at any moment does not constute us re-
ationshp TO the Government or its membership OF che
United States It's practical operation is one t1ing
the fact OF its existance as an organized Community
OF the great national community of Saies-is quite
another thing
Mr. KgLLY-Let me interrupt the gentleman one
moment longer. will ask him whether, II the Con.
.ttution be oyerthrown or destroyed and It's practical
relations cease, there be any State lelt
Mr. RAYMoyD-Why. sir; II there be no constitution
of any sort in State no law nothing but chaos. then
that State would longer exist as an organizations
but that has not been the case IL the cas IN
great communities for they always have Con-
stitutions and forms Of Governments. may not
be q Constitution or form OF Government adapted
to its relation TO the Government OF the
United States and that would be an evil to be RENE
died by the Government of the United States. That Is
what have been trying TO do for the last four years
The practical relations OF the Goyernments OF those
States with the Government Of the United States were
all wrong and were hostile 10 that Government They
denied jurisdiction; they denied that they We're
States Of the Union, but their denial did
not change the fact, and there any
time when their organizations States were destroyed
dead State is a soecsm. contradiction OF terms
an impossibility These are, confess rather meta
physical distinctions but did not raise them. Those
who assert that State is destroyed whenever its Ccu
stitution Is changed, whenever its practical rela-
tons with this Government are changed must be held
responsible for whatever metaphysical nicetes may be
necessarily involved In the discussion DO not know
Sir that ] have made my views on this point clear
to the gentleman IRON Pennsylvania (Mr. Kelly) who
has questioned me upon it, and still doubtful
whether if they are Ineligible lie will concur
with me to their justice But 1regard those Statcs
just as truly within the jurisdiction Of the Constitution
and therefore just as really and truly states OF tne