The New York herald. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, 1865-12-22


Hons being practically operative and In actual force
any moment does not constitute It's relationship 70 the
ctlca oneps,Ion q ons thug The fact ~ s e,s.
Anue a an organized community-one Of the great
4etiona! community OF States-s quite another thing
H Mr.. KuLEy-Iet me interrupt the gentleman ono mo-
mont longer will ask him wheth r, II the constitution
30 over6rown or destroyed and practical relations
'Sease, there be any STATE left
Mr. RAYnosD-why, sir II there DO constitution OF
my sort In State no law nothing but chaos then that
STATE would no longer exist as an organzaon but that
unitics for they always have constitutions and forms
pr governments Il may not be constitution or form
q the United states and that would be az evil TO BIO
NEEDED BY the gov fnment Of the Uniteds,aies That is
Ihe practical relations Of the governm nts OF those
states with the government OF the United States were all
Thsn demand snS o Were hostile TO that goysd5nm ,ss
bhey wore States Of the Union; but their do
MAJ DID not change the fact and there was never any
slime when their organizations States destroyed
lppossbity. These are confess rather metaphysical
Mat State is destroyed whenever It's Constitution Is
changed or whenever lie practical relations with this
ahatever metaphysical nlcetles may be necessarily in
Eoved In the discussion do not know, sir that have
's so to s
whether il they ineligible he viii with
rs truly within the ur sdicon OF the constitution and
therefore just really and truly States OF the Amer
relations to the government of tho United Stat have
been disturbed and have boon endcavcrng through
tSey were before Ss war The ntarv N ass
Held has given us the means Of doing this
We. can now re-esabish the practical relations
OF those States 10 the government and the actual urs
dction over them, which they vaniy attempted to throw
of, Is already restored The conquest Ia achieved
Is conquest over tn rebellion, cong The
States whose authority the rebellion had for the time
euDverted. For these reasons tn nix G views submit
led by the gent man from Pennsylvsnia (llr Sic cns
q n Rpmn Of
fhe consequences which II seems TO must follow tho
acceptance Of his poston II, as he asserts, lave
with separate nation, cannot how 80
can talk Of treason N connection with recent
plse as traitor certainly. Ii at with any
other foreign Power should talk OF the trca.
r. uo 49, a ~ "1io opioseu 70 " IA wy hci,
a. We were engaged in war with France aud
should take as prisoner the Emperor Napoleon, Ger.
calmly We could not talk Of him traitor or
as Liable TO execution I think that BY adopting
any such assumption as that Of the honorable gen.
tieman we surrender tho whole idea oil treason and
The punishment Of traitors think, moreover, that
20 accept writ ally AMI practically the doctrine Of
soveregnty-the right OF Stats to Withdraw from
Union and to break up the Union at its own Will aud
pleasure do see how upon those premises we can
escape that conclusion If the States that engaged in
Che late rebellion constituted themselves by the ordi
names OF secession or by any Of the acts with which
ehey followed those ordinances separate and inde-
pendent Power do not see how we can deny the
refuse assent to their practical results. l have
heard no clearer no stronger statement or the doctrine
che nation than would DO involved In such
Whether ho intends or not tho gentleman from Penn
sylvania lr Stevens) actually 10 Tho extreme
doctrines of the advocates Of secession.
Mr. NBLACK, dem OF Ind beg to inquire Of the
gentleman whether the theory Of tho gentleman from
rennsylvania which he is combating would not aiso
II carried to its legitimate consequences make those
who resisted the conedersey In the insurrectionary
Statess : : '''''
Mr. RAyMosD-I just going to remark that another
OF the consequences OF this doctrine rs 1t seems to
tail of laval frf l,n
bouth Loyal to what Loyal to foreign indes
pendent Power as the United States would become
under those circumstancesY Certainly not. simply
nsioya TO their own government, and descrters or
whatever you may choose - cali them, from TINT to
which they wouic owe allegiance, foreign aud indie
pendent state Now there is another consequence OF
she doctrine which shall not dwell upon, BIT simply
suggest ina. tho condfsderacy was az independent
debts, and we, having overthrow and conquered that
Independent Power according 10 the theory of the gen.
eleman from Pennsylvania, would become the inhcrtols
chs SUCCESSORS, OF It's debts and assets and st ray
shem Sir, that Is not simply theory claim thrown
cut IN de6a;s here II Is ono advanced on bchah OF
M. Raymond was hero interrupted by Mr.. Jsycxn,
with whom he had long coloquy en- this paint
Mr.. RAYMOND then proceeded. Now, sir / have dwelt
on those points longer than Intended to do do nos
think the doctrine I have been combating Is held
country, or, indeed, by any considerable nanber
II the members Of this House certainly do not thlnk
lmply much territory held BY US BY no ossrsss than
hefe Of conquest think deal with them Is
tho having usae sss e. 5osS
still under the constitutional control Of the
national government and that in dealings With them
NC are 10 be guided and goyerncd not simply by
sovereign will and pleasure congerors but By tue
restrictions and limitations Of the constitution OF the
limited In our dealings with ali other states Of the Ams
Eican Union do not think that the Of Jefer
son Davis has anything 70 do with the inhamsa treat
mont TO our prisoners OF war merely alluded 10 the
matter l might have elaborated It when said that
because we had granted 70 these States power
At war; not therefore, excluded from proceeding
against them traitors The decision Of The Supreme
Alright assert tina, We have the right to proceed against
them as traitors or rather that we had the right
ciso against them both the power Of sovcregns and OF
belgcrents that the one did not exclude the other
Now II according to the view have presented arto
deal with these States States still within tho Union
next question that how deal with theS
The gentleman from Ohio Mr. Flnck who preceded nc
took tho ground that they had only 20 resume their
Shat their representatives have only TO into this
hall and take Their seats without question ard without
,ss v. Of any sort ,0,, cannot mot ST.
have any such rights On tho contrary, think have
full and perfect right TO require certain conditions Ia
the nature OF guarantees for the future and that right
rests primarily technically the surrender we raay
And must require at their hands. Tho rebellion
bss boon defeated, and defeat always impiee
surrepder, and in @ political sense surrender
amplics moro than transfer OF the arms used on the
bd Of battle; impies In the Of civil var eur
eapons aud agencies which the war has been carried
6n. Tho military surrender was male on sns field Of
battle, TO our generN.s as tho agents and
representatives OF Che Commander. in. Chief &?
Shs Armies q tho United s!aiO.. pus this
n sesma mpors 70 ths Gentleman s-eun nsnas
Asland q Saybcdy else am quito willing to make the
&p1tiQp 70 my remark which no suggests I will say
gen, that IN surrendering tho aeid Of battle Lcy
surrendered TO the senaras who were In command o.
4hs armies a. srcnu Of She President Of the United
s.a,ss ss ta9. ssspi apa rspssssn,styi " the
znsStcAh people II uat fxp.anas.jh Is Satisfactory
che gentleman en- very happy TO make IT, aud perhaps
am Obliged 70 him for having enabled me TO state
little moro specifically and accurately than did at INST
Now there must be al she end Of tho similar
heron the political field OF controversy That surrender Ia
Ne AZ act OF justice from tho defeated party 10 tho
VICTORIOUS party. IL is due also and wo have right to
oxact H. as guarantee for tho future. Why DO
NO demand tho surrender OF their arms by tho
vanquished In every bettle3 We do IL that they
may not renew tho contest. Why do seek in
Aher fall q surrender OF tho principles on which
hrv Fought Is that unev rnev never axair