Nashville union and American. [volume] (Nashville, Tenn.) 1853-1862, 1859-12-23

How would that effect this question of representa-
ion? We only get three -fths of our negroes repre-
sented now, according to the Constitution of the
United States. Suppose you were to emanci2ate |
hem all and make them all free, when you came to
lpportiOn the representation among the South. how
would it be! Would it be threeffths or five ifths!
What is three -ifths of four million, assuming the
slaves to be four million in number! The three
ftths is two million four hundred thousand. What
would two-ffths be? One million SIX hundred thous
and. Them if your ratio were one hundred thOus-
and, we have sixteen Representatives on the other
floor less than we should have il all our ne
groes were free men Of color. We eanunder-
stand that. Instead Of getting twenty-four Repre-
for the blacks we should ha forty Rep
sixteen more than we now have.
Where, then, is this great hardship to you
where is the wrong in the Constitution TO you?
You get full representation for your negroes, who,
think slaves without masters, for they are de-
prived of all that constitutes freemen. Our slaves
enjoy all the rights of freemen with one or two
cepuons and to be deprived of these is an advantage
TO them in the relation which they occupy. Slavery
instead of being an element of political power to
the South element of political weakness in the
national councils Is not that easily seen and under
stood Then, why try to poison the minds OF your
people? Why try to deceive them! Why not tell them
that If all the slaves free instead of the power
OF the South being diminished in the Congress of
the United States she would have sixteen more Rep
res entatIves? Why not tell them the truth? What
becomes of all your sympathetic appeals based upon
every body sees and knows that the condition of a
free cClored man in the North is infinitely worse
than that of the slave in the South? What then be-
comes of your argument of equality There is
nothing in it. Why can We not as brothers in the
SANE grea: COnfed1racy, approach each other with
disposition to understand our Constitution it is
not with view to get an advantage of the argu-
ment on the popular al clpdadum slang which may
be thrown out upon the country? Let us ivest our
minds of all prejudice look at things they are,
H., 81, - Ie fIarH
standing which gives rise to discussion not the I'M
Outstanding of the question which causes argument.
Let us understand the principles embraced in the
Constitution they are, and then We can approach
each other brothers of the same great family and
stand by our bond of union is If the Constitu-
toni is wrong and experience aud time have proved it
to be so, proceed in the manner pointed out the in
strumenG to revise alter abolish it but do not
let US do it by stealth and indirection.
must notice one other paragraph of the speech
of the honorable Senator from Illinois. lie said:
Mr. President am satisfied that am not under
stood by the Senator from Alabama. | say that the
negro has the same natural rights that have and
now | say it is not a crime, under all circumstances
to hold negro in slavery
Why does not the Senator, in the State of Illinois,
place the negro he being freeman. on the same
equal ground with himself?
Mr.. TRUMBULL. If the Senator from Tennessee
will allow me, as he has dwelt on that point | will
restate my position in regard to thai do insist that
that all persons equal in organized society. The
fact is an abstract truth but when to form
government and organize society, all persons do not
have equal rights. If the Senator from Tennessee
denies that proposition, would ask him, in the alb
sence of all government. and when msn are created
without society, who is superior And how is it
that white man is superior to a black man. a
man to a woman! | take it that women are created
with the same natural rights that men have but
they do not have the same political rights in society
49,
from the Declaration of independence, and the same
language in the Illinois constitution to simply
assertion of the great natural truth that all men
created equal to hold that up before the people
of this country that everybody may see it. Now,
When we organize our society, we will infringe as
little On that great natural right as possible but
government is perfect, and therefore we do in Hi
nOis make distinction between whites and blacks
and we make distinction between the political
rights of men and women While we do that, we
admit the great GOdgYen truth that all created
equal.
Mr. JOHNSON. of Tennessee. That is the precise
point at which come to ascertain those rights it
is when governments and societies TO formed.
Then raise the question at once whether this de-
scrptOn of individuals Is equal TO another deScrIp
ton of individuals The constitution of the Senator
own State that all members ofthe white
the race for whom they were making and form
ing government were equal, and created equal An
African may be equal to his fellows in his own
v
inferior to the white but, because he is trans
ferred here or happens to be born on this continent
he is not invested with the same rights with one
of orr race he not created equal in the very be-
ginning The distinction begins with the very germ
itself. 1t depends entirely upon where he Is born
But wish to ask the Senator question. Assum-
ing equality to be the rule in natural state where
there is no law, he assumes then, that the black
man is created with the same rights that the white
man is. You assume that the power of the Federal
is
now go into a community where there no whites
established VIII you, under this general idea OF
liberty, and this declaration that all men are Gre
ated equal in the organization of your territorial
government under your sovereign power, make the
negro equal to the white man? Will the Senator
answer that?
Mr.. TRUMBULL. Does the Senator desire that
should answer him now?
Mr.. JOHNSON, of Tennessee. Certainly, if you
| think proper
| Mr. TRUMBULL. l should be governed by tie
! circumstances of the people. / would not give to
the negro population the political rights that
would to the white population in every case. dc
| not know that would III any When we come
| to form oar political government it is matter OF
expediency as to how it shall be formed in regard
the political rights of the persons who are to com
pose it. | am not prepared TO say that would give
the same political rights either 10 females or to ne
| sroes that | would to the white male population.
Under ordinary circumstances certainly should not
! be in favor of such proposition.
! Mr.. JOHNSON, of Tennessee. Mr., President, all
that want is, to get at the truth and want no fog
or mystificatiOn about the subject. Do not under
stand me as assuming that the Senator is intention
! ally throwing fog about it. The fog may be on my
| part, not his. But perhaps | can make my prOpO-
sitiOn understood by asking another question. If,
for instance the Territory of Arizona colonzed
and filed up with free cOlored population alto
gether, would the Senator be willing to admit it into
| the Union as State on equal footing with the
other States of this COnfederacy?
| Mr.. TRUMBULL. My idea about the admission of
new States is this would not admit any communi-
| ty applying to become one of the members of this
| Union, by the admission of which l supposed | was
endangering the peace of the Union itself. In my
Judgment as | said the other day, when discussing
this question there is a distinction between the
white and the black races, made by Omnpotence
himself. | do not believe these two races can live
happily and pleasantly together, or enjoy equal
rights without one domineering the other, and
therefore advocate the policy of separating these
races by system which shall rid the country of the
black race, as it becomes free. say should not be
prepared in the existing state of things to admit
sovereign State Of this Union, community of ne
groes or of Indians either.
Mr.. JOHNSON, of Tennessee. THANK the Sena-
tor for the admission he has made andI wish to
press the matter little further. think we shall
get together directly think we are travelling in
c0nverging lines, and are travelling pretty much
to the same conclusion. Suppose the four million
slaves in the slave States all emancipated and
were to hill up one of our Territories and apply for
admission here, it seems to the Senator's answer
would apply to them as well as to the question
have put. If am wrong in constituting it so, he can
correct me- but, in his last remarks he has admit
ted what set out to prove, which was opposed to
the whole tendency of his argument and the doctrine
he laid down few days since, and what it seems to
me, according to my understanding, the honorable
Senator has been denying. He admits to-day, in his
explanation, that the Creator himself has made a
difference between the black and the white race.
Mr.. TRUMBULL. Not in their natural rights.
Mr.. JOHNSON, of Tennessee. He says the differ
ence begins with the very origin of man. If the
Deity himself, according to the Senator's own ad-
mission, has made a difference between the races
how can they have been created with precisely the
same equal rights and privileges? The difference
began with the Diety. The Senator, in his
last .expa nation, has conceded the whole ground;
and all this clamOr and claptrap about liberty and
men being created equal falls to the ground and the
construction which should be put the Declaration
of independence is clear and unObscured.
In speaking about the latter part of the second
resolution of the platform of bis party, which puts
slavery and polygamy together a" - twin pecs of
barb-riGm,' the Senator in reply to 8 suggestion Of
the Senator from Alabama, Mr.. CLAY, said;
"Nr. President, will not oav about the word crime
do not call It crime in citizens Of the S'uh to hold slaves
at all
mr.. CLAY. IL not polygamy crime7
'Mr lRUNsULL. POlygamy is crime under some clrcum
stances, but always crime take that pOygamy
crime in Turkey"
The Senator makes use of the word s'crime and