The daily union., 1852-08-12

estimates 10 determine and say where the laws are COM
piled with and fulfilled and that they do not exceed
them where there is too much asked for, and where
there is only enough That is the general ordinary duty
OF that committees and there ought 10 be nothing more.
admit that these general appropriation bills, according
10 the general theory and practice OF The Senate ought
be confined 10 these things Bot let refer TO one
lien here which discussed for four 6ye days this
very Shawnee claim. What sort OF claim is that II
public that respects for is for the benefit OF the
Ohio band of the Shawnee Indians. And claiming
what Claiming money indemnify, upon the ground Of
a specific violation by the United States OF former
treaty. We are not carrying out that treaty. The prop
oston was moi to carry out that treaty, which spe-
cifc and clearly defined II 10 have the Senate 40
into examination OF that matter as fully and exten.
sively any subject would have required that could
have been brought before The presumption is that
the members OF this body had knowledge oil the
matter, no more notice OF II, than II any member OF the
Senate had risen suddenly and made the proposition
pay 500 900 the Ohio band of the Shawnee Indians
There such Thing in the treaty. and therefore II
did not conc under the general rule that nothing but cur
appropriations should be included in these appTopn
alton bills /, not the carrying out OF any law or
any treaty; for il in the very face OF the treaty that
that proposition made Yet il offered here we
received it here and discussed il for three four
days give this as an illustration OF the difficulty o
discriminating between what we call private and what
we call public claims.
maintain that this claim present it, in all It's
aspects, is much public claim as the other OF the
Shawnees OF Ohio. The object is the tulhlnen OF an
established policy OF the government We undertook to
remove these Indians hy contract and this claim obtained
the character of apublc claim because the persons who
undertook il ihwaried by the governmentin the
first place. by executive action in not issuing the scrip,
and then in the second place, by legislative action BY
changing the law itself under which the contract was
made Il is. therefore, not strictly private clam You
cannot discriminate in various cases which are private
and which public claims Ii the honorable senator
from Virginia Mr.. HuNTERl will look al the various
items which compose this bill, lthnk he will find sew
era Of them which cannot be made TO appear to be pub
lie appropriations according 10 any existing law or fealy
hope that, ander all the circumstances oil the case NE
honorable will not urge his objection 10 thls
claim. but will consider this case as one OF doubtful
character which, IN fact, perhaps ought TO be
considered appropriation according TO the existing
laws OF the country II directly and specifically
under head oil the rule as an estimate made by de-
paTment.
said a moment ago that il had been sanctioned by
former Congress- did for the purpose only OF show
ing that this is not new claim All Old senators here
have had opportunity OF examining It's merits hereto
fore, and therefore is not new case and does not re-
qure any particular investigation by the Senate. That
the why stated that fact, and for other
hope that under all the circumstances, this will not
be Disseminated from other cases which we have adj
m,ed, in which it very doubtful whether, under the
strict Interpretation of this rule, they appropriations
asked for under existing laws existing treaties.
Mr. HUNTER. II this amendment came up as a sep
arae measure. upon its own merits, should not have
word TO say about it, The honorable senator from
Tennessee, IMr BELL,l and the Committee on Indian
Afairs, who have examined ii, are better acquainted
with these matters than be. But it is my duty 10
guard the appropriation bills and preserve them accord
ing to that rule. if it be possible very much regret to
be constrained 10 oppose the proposition OF the senator
from Tennessee but il seems TO me that il we admit this
claim shall have great many others that will follow
hereafter He says IL IS no more private claim than
the in relation 10 the Ohio Shawnees. admit that
that is but the gentleman must recollect that the
Shawnee claim put in the bill by the House OF Rep
resenaiives, and the Finance Committee moved TO strike
ii out That did not sanction its introduction Ii is true,
too that there items IN the bill as II came from
the House OF Representatives which might perhaps come
under the head of private claims but they have not the
rule govern their action that have TO control
ours. We are here to guard not the action oil the
nf Dapxa yfat,a hut 1'pn
honorable senator says also that this does not come
under this rule because it is estimated for by depart
ment But the rule excludes private claims, no matter
if there be estimates and there is no proof that this Is
not private claim II getting to be the practice in the
departments to hunt up these private claims, and report
upon them here in their eslimates and that think is one
OF the causes o difficulty getting along with these
appropriation bills They hunt up these claims and send
down estimates Tor them.
As said when was up before, what is the test which
it seems to me should be applied in discriminating be-
public and private claims in relation to general ap
preparation bills They should be appropriations pur-
of some existing law or treaty, or to carry out the
service OF the year Is this appropriation in
pursuance of any law No, sr ls il an appropriation
IN pursuance of any contract or treaty! No. sir But II
is claim founded upon the allegation that the United
States in respect did discharge its duty, and
therefore became liable for the losses OF the
tractors in removing these Indians 1t seems TO that
thus rs claim oil a somewhat doubtful character. i!
Is carry any law any treaty. rs for any
current service of the year. for II relates to transactions
which occurred many years ago. | fear, II we depart
IRON the rule thls inSance-and 10 thS
believe would be departure from the rue-it will open
the way a great many other similar cases. believe
that the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs
Mr. ATcnIsoS will be guided by the decision OF the
Senate upon this matter Ii we exclude this claim he
will not any Of the private claims there before
that committee. II we do not, then be will present them
and u Is for that that anxious that The Sen
ate the beginning OF this matter should define, by lis
construction ot this rule what shall be admitted upon
the general appropriation bills aud what shall not !
think this is of the which should be excluded
The PRESIDENT. The Char has read the rule IN or
der that the Senate decide wbeh this Is ate
claim or not When the deficiency bill up for
sderaiion here, IL then determined 10 be private
claim. Ii is for the Senate 10 determine whether or not
they will consider IL private claim when Offered 10 the
Indian appropriation bill
MIR. BELL. only wish TO say that at a previous
sion decided that this not private claim, and
incorporated II into general appropriation bill; that
we have decision upon each side.
Mr.. WALKER. This is question OF some doubt;
but 10 that, under all the circumstances OF
the case should consider this private claim. IL is
upon bad contract The senator from Tennessee Mr.
BELI says that il became bad contract through act
of this government That may be So But have we not
precisely parallel with which have had some
Thing to do for some time Take for instance the case
OF the late printer for Congress- (Mr. Rchie,) who
deIiook TO do the printing OF Congress He iound that
he had sustained loss, and he before Congress
and asked TO be made good that loss, alleging IN this
instance, that the loss in consequences OF the action
oi department OF this governmentin consequence OF II
being so long time before Congress organized But
would consider that at once private claim, even
IL II to be estimated for by department of the gov
This is jost the in principle: IL is merely
proposition to make good losses upon contract Con-
cede that II loss in consequence OF the action OF
.,S A laa. fhupa lna