September 11 attacks/Archive 50

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== air defense? ==

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:''The following discussion is archived. &lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;'''Please do not modify it.'''&lt;/span&gt; Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.'' {{#if:One more forum like conversation trying to push a POV of fringe is going to get reported. All members involved, you have already been warned multiple times. Just stop. –[[User:Turian|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000;&quot;&gt;túrian&lt;/span&gt;''']][[User_talk:Turian|''&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;patois&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;'']] 21:02, 24 September 2009 (UTC)|''A summary of the conclusions reached follows.''
::One more forum like conversation trying to push a POV of fringe is going to get reported. All members involved, you have already been warned multiple times. Just stop. –[[User:Turian|'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:#000000;&quot;&gt;túrian&lt;/span&gt;''']][[User_talk:Turian|''&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;patois&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;'']] 21:02, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
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how comes this article has no info about inactivity of air defense on that day? 14:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This is documented in Wikipedia's article U.S. military response during the September 11 attacks. Evidently, the military response is not deemed very important to the 9/11 topic; as it has only received a wikilink in the article, and nothing more. By contrast, the Attackers and their motivation section comprises more than 15000 bytes of text. The Original Wildbear Wildbear 06:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"...is not deemed very important..." but my question is by whom? why doens't it deserve a single sentence at least in this article? i think it is a fundamental question, how there were no military jets intercepting even one of these hijacked plains, even after they started hitting buildings, one by one, with decent time passing between the crashes? 07:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources. You may think it's fundamental, but if reliable sources don't, then it isn't. Just like if I think it's a fundamental question to ask if Abe Lincoln was a robot or not, doesn't mean it's important for the encyclopedia. Understand? --Tarage08:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

how about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_attacksReferences these sources? 09:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... I admit I was wrong and didn't see those. But even then, in that case there already is a proper section in that article, and there doesn't need to be one here. Thanks for pointing that out though. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. --Tarage20:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

you don't seem to understand my concern. why is there not even a mention about that in THIS article, which btw has pages and pages of other info. for example, there is a whole article about 20:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the other editors here, but to me, it doesn't feel like it belongs here. Since it is already mentioned elsewhere, and since it isn't extremely vital to this article, I don't think it needs to be mentioned. You can ask some of the other editors though. --Tarage05:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

it does seem someone else asked similar question above 10:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

i would add it, but the page is semiprotected... 10:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a quick and easy way to remedy that. Simply register an account. --x Tarage 18:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)--Tarage18:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

been there, done that. wikipedia is full of stalkers, so this is my preferred way ;) 18:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but in this situation, you'll be hard pressed to find someone to edit for you, unless you find someone who agrees with what you are proposing. Sometimes bold edits are the way to get the ball rolling. Though other times they cause frustration. It's a double edged sword. I hope in the future you decide to register. While you do occasionally get 'stalked', the benefits outweigh the risks. --Tarage07:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's best if you write down the exact changes/additions to the article that you are suggesting, so that a registered user may insert them into the article, or we would have a more focused discussion on the proposal at the talk page here.nbsp; 08:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

- maybe to start with something like this (from above linked military article):

"The U.S. military response during the September 11, 2001 attacks was ineffective in preventing both World Trade Center Twin Towers and the Pentagon from being hit by hijacked airplanes. While 911 Commission stated that FAA failed to notify NORAD in time of hijacked planes, ATSC director stated that everyone who needed to be notified was notified, including the military."

15:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence appears useful. As for the second sentence, I don't think we can assume that readers know enough about the 9/11 Commission, FAA, NORAD and ATSC to understand the meaning of the sentence. Prior to adressing the question of who said what at which point of time, we should start with those facts that are basically undisputed, e.g. at which time fighter jets were actually scrambled.nbsp; 15:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

That first sentence seems bad to me. I think something more neutral would be better. --Tarage19:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You guys have been warned about this fringe information yet you continue to push it? –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 21:02, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

"The above discussion is preserved as an archive. "'Please do not modify it."' Subsequent comments should be made in a new section."

what the hell is this? archiving an ongoing discussion? your disagreement doesn't make it fringe. 23:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 93.86.164.168 on this. Turian is out of line in archiving this ongoing discussion about a topic which most definitely is "not" fringe. (See a list of references here if you don't believe that this topic is extensively covered by reliable sources.) This is a complex topic which is difficult to boil down to a few sentences, but the editors discussing the subject are doing so in good faith and without evident intent to compromise the quality of the article. Quite the contrary; the air defense response is a very important topic in the 9/11 matter, and any general overview of 9/11 is incomplete without some inclusion of the air defense issues. The Original Wildbear Wildbear 03:14, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion obviously focused on a suggestion on how to improve the article. Not agreeing with the suggestion is not a valid reason for closing the discussion.nbsp; 05:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't incorporate my opinion into my decision making. It is fringe based on the fact that many people question (the conspiracy theorists) whether the government even tried. So it IS fringe. Take it to appropriate article and stop discussing it here, unless you want it brought up at AN/I. –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 07:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

why is conspiracy theory relevant here? we are talking about what NORAD, FAA, and other GOVERNMENT AGENCIES stated. stop abusing wikipedia rules. 07:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Not only have multiple reliable sources, including the most prominent media in the U.S., widely reported on the information that is missing in the article, the issue has made headline news over a time span of several years (2001, 2004, 2006, see the sources below). I ask Turian to reopen the discussion on the on the proposal made by the IP editor.nbsp; 11:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources

cite news|last=Weisman|first=Jonathan|title=Shoot-down order issued on morning of chaos|journal=USA Today|date=September 16, 2001|url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/16/pentagon-timeline.htm|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Wald|first=Matthew L.|title=Pentagon Tracked Deadly Jet but Found No Way to Stop It|journal=New York Times|date=September 15, 2001|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/national/15CONT.html|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|title=Officials: Government failed to react to FAA warning|publisher=CNN|date=September 17, 2001|url=http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Milbank|first=Dana|title=Cheney Authorized Shooting Down Planes|journal=Washington Post|date=June 18, 2004|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2004/06/18/AR2005040311317.html|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Schrader|first=Esther|title=Cheney Gave Order to Shoot Down Jets|journal=Los Angeles Times|date=June 18, 2004|url=http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jun/18/nation/na-cheney18|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Gumbel|first=Andrew|title=US jets were just eight minutes away from shooting down hijacked plane|journal=The Independent|date=September 20, 2001|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-jets-were-just-eight-minutes-away-from-shooting-down-hijacked-plane-670044.html|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Shenon|first=Philip|title=Tapes show confusion in U.S. military on 9/11|journal=International Herald Tribune|date=August 3, 2006|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/world/americas/03iht-tapes.2379082.html|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Burkeman|first=Oliver|title=Panic and delay wrecked 9/11 response|journal=The Guardian|date=June 18, 2004|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/18/alqaida.september11|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|last=Burkeman|first=Oliver|title=9/11 tapes expose flaws in military chiefs' testimony|journal=The Guardian|date=August 3, 2006|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/03/september11.usa|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|title=9/11 panel: Bid to intercept jets was flawed|publisher=MSNBC/AP|date=June 17, 2004|url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5232563/ns/us_news-security/|accessdate=September 25, 2009

cite news|title=Feds Would Have Shot Down Pa. Jet|publisher=CBS News|date=September 16, 2001|url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/12/archive/main311011.shtml|accessdate=September 25, 2009

No, like I said, you need to take it to the relevant article. Sources of a bunch of people questioning the even that is mainstream sounds like fringe. And I am not stupid, their is some implication of fringe whenever you you guys have ever talked about the attacks. So no, I will not open the discussion. Take it to where it is highly relevant, but leave it out of here. And yes, I will be monitoring discussions over there as well. –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 12:16, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

do as you will, report to an/i, but i will continue discussing the matter here, as seems few others will too. you are minority, and you don't have 12:35, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't need consensus to withhold policy. And I told you to get off of my talk page because I don't want you guys taking it there. I don't want you guys discussing it here. Discuss where it is relevant, or it "'will"' be considered fringe, and it will be reported, with proposed topic bans on every single 9/11 issue. –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 12:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

we disagree. you think it's fringe and irrelevant, few of us think it is not fringe and it is relevant. do whatever you want, that's your problem. 12:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, the minority is not automatically wrong. You guys are question mainstream events. That is conspiracy at its basic form. –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 12:44, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not questioning anything, i am citing official government sources, and above you can find a few mainstream sources. the only conspiracy seems to be in your perception of above arguments. 12:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

- so let's try to write an informative paragraph about the topic. other editor noted that my suggestion may not be NPOV worded. does anyone have another suggestion? 12:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I will not be able to participate in the discussion on this talk page from September 27 until October 10, per the result of an arbitration enforcement procedure. I encourage editors to use the sources above, as well as other reliable sources, in order to find the most important points of information concerning this issue. It's best to present the sources in a factual way and to describe the facts in a way that is accessible to readers who are unfamiliar with the subject of the article.nbsp; 15:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I've been saying from the beginning that this doesn't belong on this article. I've just been trying to say it in nicer terms. But x "'túrian"' is correct, this feels very much like a POV push. --Tarage 18:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Tarage and Turian, are you willing to consider the relevance of these news media items independently of who presented them, or started the discussion on this issue here?nbsp; 19:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't care ""'who""' is talking about it, all I know is that it is fringe. You have even had an arbitration case, yet you "continue" to push the issue. Perhaps it should have been a topic ban forever. –Turian "'túrian""'patois" 20:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Citeable? Yes. Worth inclusion in this article? No. There is a place for everything, and everything in it's place. This is not the place. --Tarage04:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I have a very nice source I can bring to this later this evening. It's certainly a relevant and non-fringe topic.--John00:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

"X failed to do Y" contains the implicit assumption that Y was X's job to begin with. It is not an automatic job of any agency to go around gunning down hijacked planes, conspiracy theorists' claims notwithstanding. 06:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) Mission Statement: ""In close collaboration with homeland defense, security, and law enforcement partners, prevent air attacks against North America, safeguard the sovereign airspaces of the United States and Canada by responding to unknown, unwanted, and "'unauthorized air activity"' approaching and "'operating within"' these airspaces, and provide aerospace and maritime warning for North America."(http://www.norad.mil/about/vision.html ref) (Emphasis mine) Unless I missed something, no one discussing editing this article talked about "gunning down hijacked planes". The topic under discussion concerns air defense actions, inactions, and responsibilities as documented by the government and reliable sources, in relation to the attacks of September 11, 2001. The Original Wildbear Wildbear 07:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Right. And there should be nothing controversial or forum-like in proposing here that there should be some coverage of this in the article. There certainly seem to be reliable sources we can use. Still looking for mine. --John19:45, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Here we go. Andrew Brookes, "Destination Disaster" (2002), ISBN|0711028621, p84. "Marwan al-Shehhi on the flightdeck of United 175 had learned enough in his training to turn off the transponder that enabled ground controllers to pinpoint the airliner's altitude and position. From now on, watchers on the ground would have to rely on raw radar returns. These were used to scramble two F-15 interceptors from Otis Air Force Base at 08.39hrs, but no one on the ground understood what was happening or what should be done. Even if they had put in full afterburners, the F-15 pilots could have done little because the first airliner was just six minutes' flying time from Manhattan." --John21:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

any suggestions about what exactly to place into the article? 09:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I say leave it out. It already has reliability issues. That excerpt contains an important factual error. Transponders encode altitude and identification, but not position. Primary radar echo returns still give position.

Aside from that, there's already a page dedicated to the U.S. military response during the September 11 attacks. It's currently being guarded by a person who wants to make sure her/his opinions of blame remain in the article. If anyone seriously wants to put together an encyclopedic article about the military response, that article would be a great place to go. The article right now is full of WP policy violations and lacking in discussion, except for discussions between me and the other person. I'm done arguing with her/him myself. Dcs00209:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Say x "'túrian"', how do you report these fringe/POV problems? I want to report violations like this, but I don't know where to go or what to do. You said you'd be monitoring the page U.S. military response during the September 11 attacks, which is overflowing with these problems, but I haven't seen you there. Like I said, it's being carefully guarded by a single user who treats it like her/his personal web page, making sure his conclusions and findings of blame remain in the article. Have a look at the discussion page. I'm a newbie I need help over there. Dcs00210:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Prosecution

Were the bodies of the hijackers found? Were they prosecuted posthumously? If not, aren't they innocent until proven guilty in a court of law? What are the implications of that on this article?? JiminezWaldorf 02:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

From Newsweek, January 3, 2009: "...scientists have now ID'd four of the 10 New York hijackers. The remains of the nine hijackers from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites have also been confirmed; six other hijackers have yet to be identified."(http://www.newsweek.com/id/177724 ref) Were the hijackers prosecuted posthumously? I don't know. Implications for the article? More references would be needed to establish notability. Interestingly, Wikipedia's Flight 11 article only mentions the remains of two hijackers being found, and the Flight 175 article mentions none. This probably needs updating, as the Newsweek article mentions finding the remains of "four" of the New York hijackers. The Original Wildbear Wildbear 04:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Court of law. Wikipedia is not a court of law. We say what reliable sources say. If reliable sources say they are guilty, then so do we. Funny how that works huh? --Tarage08:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Guilty" is a legal term, which has its limitations. The 19 hijackers cannot be found guilty because the US does not prosecute dead people. However, there are criminal investigations, in this case by the FBI, and those investigations draw evidence-based conclusions. In addition, one defendant, Zacarias Moussaoui, was tried in a US court for conspiracy in the 9/11 attacks, and he was found guilty based on the conspiracy scenario involving the 19. The evidence is overwhelming, widely reported and available, represents a worldwide consensus, and it all points toward the 19 (and their Al-Qaeda hierarchy). A criminal trial produces a legal verdict, which does not represent a finding of factual certainty. The evidence in this case has been reviewed and scrutinized by experts and scholars around the world. A guilty verdict only represents the opinions of 12 ordinary people. I think what we have is more reliable than a guilty verdict. The only advantage a guilty verdict would bring to an encyclopedia is freedom from libel, which is not an issue when the potentially libeled are all dead by their own crime. Dcs00209:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia is NOT a court of law. We can call someone guilty if the reliable sources infer this. --Tarage22:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree for one reason. "Guilty" is a legal term indicating a finding of legal guilt, which in the US means a court verdict. True, there are other definitions of the word (such as the emotion), but I think we should avoid the term because of it's implied legal meaning. I think we have plenty of justification to say the 19 committed this act, without qualification. They did it, and we all know it. And since, as you say, we are not a court of law, I think we should avoid using the word "guilty." (I don't know of any reliable sources that have used that word.) Just say they did it. Dcs00207:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe we have tried in the past to just flat out say this, but many objected, so we are stuck with the current version. Feel free to change it from guilt to straight implication if you want. I just can't guarantee it won't be reverted. --Tarage01:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Parody on 9/11.

It's actualy parodied in Postal movie. I didn't saw it competely but in the begining there is a clear parody on terrorist pilots and their passanger victims.

Yeah very smart and funny to play such things on tragedys.

Also there is no "9/11 in culture" part in the article. And its influencing such things like movies and so on. Some of them where canceled/edited as for their terrorism content. Also I've heard that pig cops where removed from Duke Nukem Forever to show respection to police officers who died there.--Oleg Str19:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... for such a serious and important article... I'm not entirly sure where a 'pop culture' section would go. You could always be bold and add it yourself. As for Postal, that's that Uwe Boll film right? Yeah, he isn't known for having taste... --Tarage20:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

We already have List of audiovisual entertainment affected by the September 11 attacks. ""'Hut 8.5""' 18:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Strongly object to having a pop culture section on the article. --John21:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

see also

is this relevant 22:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope. --Tarage08:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

u r right, i posted this in wrong article, should have been in conspiracy theories one. 09:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion top|1= Enough of this, user has been blocked -- InnerParty11:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Where is the evidence

What is this based on?

I find it insulting, that im expected to believe this.

how much evidence would be required to have this article updated? —Preceding 06:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The article's sources are fairly transparent, as are wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion. If you find the article insulting, work on improving it with 08:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't have said it better myself. --Tarage15:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

What is transparent is your misdemeanor. I would like to know for how long we'll have to bare this hegemony of few… I'll stay polite. ManComesAround22:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You need to "bare" it only as long as it takes you provide better sources than are already present. So, what have you got? Rockpocket22:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

We have record breaking archive here with whole plethora of pretty good sources, let me ask, why we lack section about unanswered questions and calls for new investigation?

We have well referenced article about 9/11: Press for Truth, who and for what end made a decision to omit this historical call from this article? What would be the reasoning behind such decision? ManComesAround13:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You're assuming that there are some "'facts"' in 9/11: Press for Truth. Our article is neutral on that issue. — Arthur Rubin17:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You're assuming assumptions... and that will lead us nowhere. We are not here to determine factual accuracy, obviously so. If there is notable call for new investigation then there's a notable call for independent investigation - INDISCRIMINATE. ManComesAround07:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. So, I misspoke. You're assuming there's a "notable" call for an investigation in 9/11: Press for Truth. — Arthur Rubin08:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming that you are able to assume good faith as you contribute to the project, perhaps I'm wrong? Let me repeat that question. Why we lack section about unanswered questions and calls for new investigation? ManComesAround08:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Almost all of them belong in 9/11 conspiracy theories. Those few calls for a new investigation which "do not" presuppose a conspiracy theory could possibly be here. I believe 9/11: Press for Truth should be noted "somewhere", but in which subarticle? — Arthur Rubin14:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

You knocked me off my feet Arthur, let's discuss these possibilities, do you think that futile take of NY Coalition for Accountability meets the merit? Or rather, before we move on, could you kindly give a few arguments of why to exclude the Press for Truth? Have you read our article about it, there is no conspiracy to be found, not a single world, nothing but questions there. ManComesAround15:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

You are quite delusional if you believe what you are asking for is NPOV. I'm getting sock puppet vibes. I think I may request a check user... --Tarage02:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I was right. Carry on. --Tarage08:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about replying to the DUCK. Still, it seems to me that if there were any non-conspiracy-theory requests for reinvestigation, there should be some note about it in one of the related articles. — Arthur Rubin08:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we had enough of this inane gibberish, someone should close this ridiculous exchange. InnerParty11:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Act swiftly

User: The Original Wildbear, reverted my edit made on solid grounds and implied that Mr. Rumsfeld is a pig http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=September_11_attacksaction=historysubmitdiff=323549441oldid=323504694. I think he should be dealt with swiftly. InnerParty11:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Lipstick on a pig is a well-known expression and does not typically imply that the subject is a pig. TOW restored well-sourced material. Please propose controversial changes on the talk page first. Ohnoitsjamie OhNoitsJamie 14:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm certain editor wasn't implying a thing there. What's this about controversial changes? What is the purpose of that quote? It looks like someone stick it there out of the blue. No explanation, nothing, someone just smacked it there, for what reason? I'm certain there are better places where editors can provide more insightful "'opinions"' about 'things related or not'. I'm saying that Mr. Rumsfeld's quote is redundant to this article which is easy to read and easy to understand, at least until that point. InnerParty16:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

This particular well-sourced material is especially informative and interesting, as it evidences, just hours after the attacks, a mindset which seemed to guide the Bush administration through most of its major policies and actions in the months and years which followed. The Original Wildbear Wildbear 18:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't find it informative at all, if anything, it's a quote without context. Look at it as if you would see it without knowing any of the 'evidences' you allege here. See, it means nothing and it says nothing, it should be removed. InnerParty18:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

numbers discrepancy

In the opening paragraph, death toll is mentioned as 2993. In the table immediately to the right, it's stated as 2995. Which one's correct? —Preceding 07:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

"

Italic text"

hijackers included?

Why are the deaths of the hijackers included? Does the gov. count their deaths as well?Jlujan6902:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Didn't they die? -Jordgette05:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I've just read on CNN.com: 3031 deaths... than which one is true? pls answer on my talk page --Mdönci09:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Al quida hijackers that the United States intelligents "claims" crashed the airplaines into the twin towers have been found alive. Bringing the validity of these intelligent reports along with the whole official story into question

09:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yet another false statement. Perhaps more accurate (but still irrelevant to "this" article) would be that people have been identified as (some of the) 19 hijackers were discovered later. Those identifications have not been substantiated. — Arthur Rubin15:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The Al Qaeda terrorists should not be included in the number dead; rather, there should be a separate column. —Preceding 16:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The number of dead is a matter of statistics, a fact, as best as can be determined, and the hijackers should be included in that, but an asterisk stating that "x" number of fatalities were hijackers would be appropriate. Removing emotion from the equation, the hijackers WERE among the dead.76.88.76.161 07:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Gaming the system

At the top of this page we have a notice about 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/September_11_conspiracy_theories arbitration case, upon reviewing the statements and learning about deeper context I would like to note that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/September_11_conspiracy_theoriesDecorum decorum has been broken by the http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=September_11_attacksaction=history two editors who have previously shown continuous tenacious approach to this article. These two editors are clearly a part of the wider group which is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gaming_the_system Gaming the system and whose interests have nothing to do with guidelines and principles established by Wikipedia Community. In line with their previous efforts, these editors have shown disregard to the editorial process while removing and/or omitting publicly known, notable and well referenced material from the article. There is no doubt that their refusal to allow information which is considered to be 'common knowledge' has no valid or logical foundation and that their actions hurt the project, fuel unnecessary vandalism and unwelcome behaviour. Since this is historically repeating occurrence that is well know within and outside of Wikipedia, I would at this time ask for swift and appropriate action of the administrate. InnerParty09:07, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid, that if I were to ignore AGF, I would be forced to assume that you were one of the two editors. However, "refusing to allow information which is considered to be 'common knowledge'" but does "'not"' appear in any reliable sources is exactly what should be done.

As an aside, it appears you are being reverted both by editors who lean toward both the "truther" and "mainstream" positions, suggesting that your changes do not meet with consensus. — Arthur Rubin18:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Regards, is it so? Perhaps the fact that I've been reverted by both 'twoofez' and 'debunkez' means that I don't care much about 'twoofewizm' and 'debunkewizm' or something as strange as that..? Perhaps not. Either way, I'm glad that you've showed some restraint. I'd appreciate if you'd review the edits made, before you 'divulge' what should and what shouldn't be done. By doing so, you'd see that your allegation is made with.. without foundation, since I've done nothing but provided clear links to notable, well referenced articles that already showed their ability to stand alone and that are not just related, but deeply entangled with topic at hand. As you bare in mind that edits were made after discussion and apparent consensus, I'll most strongly reiterate; if information is available outside of Wikipedia and if it is considered to be (notable and well referenced) 'common knowledge', then our inability to reference such information serves little (as a matter of fact is serves no) purpose, while it does real and tangible harm to this project.

Take that as you will, as for my 'rant', I'm afraid that reputation of certain editors precedes them, and although I'm exercising restraint in AGF manner, I'm ready to 'prove' what's written above while using most basic queries to search engines, queries that 'divulge' real meaning (and incivility) of 'tenacious editing'. Ok? InnerParty22:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes...we shall not tolerate tenacious editing or incivility like http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:September_11_attacksdiff=prevoldid=322515117 this one, a "first edit" by you. I checked out those that reverted your edits...they look fine to me, BTW.--MONGO00:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I knew you'd like it, after examining the history here I've concluded that rudeness goes a long way on these pages, so I've deployed some and I'm sad to say that results confirm expectations. You know, I agree, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:September_11,_2001_attacksdiff=46414207oldid=46413974 everything is fine. I'll move out of your way now, keep up the good fight against those http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan/EvidenceMONGO_has_repeatedly_violated_our_Civility_and_No_personal_attacks_policies 'trolls, jerks, bigots.. or worse'! InnerParty08:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't suffer fools well...especially when they keep trying to screw up articles with conspiracy theory idiocies. I believe in a zero tolerance plan in dealing with trolls and previously banned editors...my plan includes to make sure they know they are unwelcome...so I sure hope I didn't disappoint you.--MONGO05:16, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

'I make up stories'

There are two famous statements of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

'I was responsible for the 9/11 operation, from A to Z' statement.

And less famous, 'I make up stories,' statement. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009342668_gitmo16.html

I would appreciate some opinions on why would second reference be of lesser value than the first one (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=September_11_attacksaction=historysubmitdiff=325765264oldid=325695037 POV pushing? How in the world, and omission of 'admission by torture' is… what?). I'd also like to discuss lack of 'torture section'. Although I'm not surprised that information about torture of Kahtani, Zubaydah and others is missing... I'd really like to see some non-conspiratorial and decent work actually being done here, so http://tachyonbursts.blogspot.com/2009/10/dissmissal-on-grounds-of-torture.html here is the link to the blogspot article which is, imo, referenced well enough to serve as a good starting point for suggested discussion. InnerParty14:53, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Can you explain why the "tachyonbursts" article is not (a) "'completely"' unreliable (as we define RS) and (b) written by an editor banned from Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin23:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

a) Could you kindly "'point out"' where I've said it was reliable? b) What to hell is a tachyon burst? c) there is really no way we can have a decent discussion here, yes? InnerParty00:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

a) If it's not reliable, it can't go in the article. It might be used to "find" reliable sources, but....

b) User:Tachyonbursts is a banned editor. If that's his blog, then adding information he provides is proxying, and could lead to your being blocked, even if the information were actually of use.

— Arthur Rubin00:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with this interpretation of PROXYING. If someone finds information on a website that is presumably being maintained by a banned user, this does not mean that this editor is acting "at the direction of a banned user". In most cases, such websites would not be considered reliable sources anyway. If the website points to a reliable source, then the existence of such a reliable source is a valid reason for the possible inclusion of a piece of information in an article, independent of how the reliable source has been found. The situation is probably different if a banned user would publish templates for WP edits on a webpage, and someone else would use them verbatim to edit WP articles.nbsp; 00:55, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't want to bring up the hypothesis that InnerParty was already a sock of Tachyonbursts. I was asked to investigate, and declined, on the grounds that my sock identification skills were lacking. If he had responded to the proxying allegation, it might have provided some insight. Oh, well. — Arthur Rubin01:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, referring to an article which is presumably written by a banned user is, umm, a very questionable strategy if you are a sock of that same user. A SPI would be in order, of course, and would be not too difficult, as the potential sock puppeteer is already identified. The potential benefit of tricking some user into revealing more than he or she wants to do does not outweigh the damage that may result if other users are being led to follow a misleading interpretation of actual Wikipedia policies.nbsp; 01:44, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I guess this turned out to be discussion about torture after all, there is not much information about expulsion of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_ActLone_wolf_amendment subject, was he removed by the USDHS? Well, after this interesting exchange I'll admit I'm deeply concerned for my privacy, therefore I'm definitely done with editing Wikka-wakka, have fun, InnerParty09:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, it's devastating for the project to lose an editor of your caliber. Ice Cold Beer07:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Should I even bother with a sock check? I mean honestly, he made it far too easy this time, especially considering this 'new editor' appeared directly after the last sock was blocked. I would say that this "I suddenly agree with everything you guys say" approach was interesting, but really, this is just tedious. I had my doubts from the very first edit. Can someone else put in the request this time? --Tarage10:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd rather not. I'm having enough trouble keeping track of ResearchEditor socks. — Arthur Rubin08:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The Cter's are idiots...it's not surprising they are too stupid to know how to mask new accounts that at least make it a real challenge to ID them without checkuser.--MONGO04:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the assumption is that if enough low-tech assaults are unleashed, that somehow technology will be rendered useless. Alternately, since there are so many lock-step ideas in the truther movement, it's entirely possible that an army of meat-puppets simply argue the same points. Ronabop05:57, 23 November 2009 (UTC)